ThinkEnergy

From policy to infrastructure to new and old buildings, how can we create cities that improve lives through deep carbon reductions, creating co-benefits for people and the planet? Thomas Mueller, President & CEO at Canada Green Building Council, joins us to share why this is a ‘critical decade’ for the green building market and why green buildings are an actionable solution for helping Canada meet its goals for economic development, job creation, and GHG reductions.

Related Content & Links:

• Thomas Mueller - President & CEO at Canada Green Building Council (CaGBC) CEO, Green Business Certification Inc Canada (GBCI CA)
  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-mueller-4901b810/
• Canada Green Building Council - https://www.cagbc.org/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey everyone, welcome back to the ThinkEnergy podcast. As cities struggle with the pressure to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, better support green jobs, and hyper competitive real estate markets, they must find new and creative solutions that address short and long term issues. This includes creating a low or zero carbon future, which requires a step by step process to retrofit our existing communities and ensure all future builds are net zero carbon operations by 2050. From policy to infrastructure to new and old buildings. How can we create cities that improve lives through deep carbon reductions, creating co benefits for people and the planet. As of 2018, the green building industry added over 164,000 jobs, which is 55% greater than 2014. Over the same period, Canada's oil and gas extraction, mining and forestry industries stagnated in terms of job growth, they contracted by 2.8% and shed 7580 positions. Canadians have grown conscious of a broader range of social and environmental challenges. This shift and resulting public pressure have in turn spurred policymakers and industry leaders to raise the bar on sustainability, leading to increased government activity and higher standards for both building codes and industry certifications. As a result, green building certification programs are not only growing increasingly stringent, but also broadening in scope. Over the past decade, they have raised the bar on energy efficiency, renewable energy and sustainability practices. By extension, they have changed the way Canadians design, construct, maintain and operate buildings. A large percentage of Canada's buildings continue to be constructed without green building practices, or third party certification. building codes and municipal bylaws in provinces such as British Columbia are driving market transformation via new construction. So here's today's big question: is the existing building market really the most significant untapped opportunity for economic development, job creation, and GHG reduction in Canada? Our guest today leads the Canada Green Building Council national green building strategy, programs and standards, along with advocacy and policy initiatives. He's also the founding director of the Canada Green Building Council, and became president and CEO of the council in 2005. Dear listeners, please welcome Thomas Meuller. Thomas, you're a well known advocate for green buildings and sustainable community developments. Perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself, What drew you to your current role? And what the Canada Green Building Council does?

Thomas Mueller  04:09

Thank you for inviting me. My name is Thomas Mueller. I'm the president and CEO of an organization called the Canada Green Building Council. And we've been advocating for green building practices since 2005. And, and we are really focusing on changing the practices in the billing industry ever since what really drew me to this to this work was that I, you know, I was inspired at the time and this is a long time ago by our common future, which was the Frampton report, as it was referred to the first mention of sustainable development and didn't take me long to realize that the building sectors, one of the sectors that have there's no other sector in the world has more impact, not just on climate change, but also how we live and our economy than the building sector. So that in the late 1990s, I was drawn to that sector to make changes, the other would help us reduce the environmental impact from that sector.

Dan Seguin  05:26

Now, how can we create cities that improve lives through deep carbon reduction, creating cool benefits for people and the planet? Why should we strive to make every building greener?

Thomas Mueller  05:43

So when you look at the building sector, or in cities, when we and it's getting better now, but when we use to cover climate change in this country, usually, if you watch CBC or CTV, it was always the one standing in front of big chimneys that would kind of admit, what I guess, was carbon emissions was big factories or it was transportation was standard on hot in front of a highway and just, you know, talk about how these two sectors transportation, and factories would just be the main culprit in climate change. The fact is, they're very high emitters. But actually, a building sector in Canada and globally is about 30%. And that includes both the operation of the building, so the heating, cooling, light lighting, but it also includes the embodied materials, so the body carbon materials, so that includes the energy used to make steel, the energy to use make any parts of the building. So it's a significant footprint that a building sector has. And the building sector also employs a lot of people. And we live in those buildings. So it's about the opportunity about carbon reduction. But it's also the opportunity that buildings are made for people. And we want to make sure that we balancing our environmental aspirations that we have a building in the in Canada green building, kind of context, that would help us to also look at how can buildings be good for people, because at the end of the day, that's what we build buildings for, to live, to learn to work. It's this combination of in the building sector, the impact, and the also the impact that buildings have on our lives. And on the environment. It's a combination of that. And so it's a great opportunity to combine those in green buildings, and also the green building sectors, the only one, we talked about climate change, and the other things is that actually has return on investment. And not just from the energy, but you have people in buildings that are more productive, that are healthier, that has a direct impact on his employer, for government, people are healthier, happier, more productive, that has a positive impact all around.

Dan Seguin  08:12

Okay, Thomas, wondering how important is it to balance our carbon reduction ambitions with health considerations, particularly during and after COVID-19? Do we have a clear path to show carbon leadership with healthier indoor environments, that future proof buildings, encourage innovation and drive job growth?

Thomas Mueller  08:36

Yes, we do. So I think we need to there are several questions here there Can we need to pick apart a little bit. One is that we absolutely need to balance our ambitions around carbon reduction, energy efficiency with human health and well being. Because we don't want to go back to the 1970s, where we can over insulate buildings and people get existing in those buildings, right. And just as a human being, I think we want to have access to to light when we work on those buildings to daylighting those buildings, we want to have access to fresh air, we want to have access to an environment that makes us feel healthy and relaxed, because then that's when we do our best, let's say in the working environment, or in a learning environment at school for children. Or when you're at home, you just want to make sure that the air and the light in your building are healthy. And so we want to make sure that how we design our buildings are on carbon because there's one trend where you want to have you know super insulated buildings and don't get me wrong. Energy Efficiency is very important when we get to low carbon non zero carbon buildings. But at the same time, we have to make sure that not only basic human needs are met that we want to enhance those needs in buildings. So we need to design them accordingly. So we need to balance those two. Now COVID has provided an extra kind of layer around how people think about buildings. Because before then I think most people didn't really think too much about, you know, ventilation, when you went to work ventilation or air flow, or those types of things, with COVID has come really into focus. Now that buildings need to be not only safe, but also be healthy. I think it's a great opportunity to rethink how buildings can be, not just from an environmental point of view, but also from a health point of view. The, I think the the final solution, on what, how buildings will operate after the pandemic is over I, after updating has kind of retreated, because I think it will be busy with us for a while, is still out. But definitely what we know is that more fresh air in buildings will be very important. And then there's filtration of that air and there will be humidification of the air and so on. So what the final solution is really depends also, you know, where you are, what kind of building it is, that solution is still out. But it's a great opportunity to look at and say what can buildings be from a health point of view, and not even just because of COVID. But beyond COVID, because we want healthier buildings, but we also want them to be low carbon, we want them to be water efficient, we want them to be materially efficient, we want to recycle. And that's something as the council we have been advocating for the last 20 years through our LEED building rating system is called Leadership in Energy, Environmental Design. We have advocated for that. So what we call that is holistic buildings that are good for the environment, they're good for people, and they're good for the economy, right? And buildings, only sector we can actually materialize that we can actually realize that you can invest in environmental solutions, you can invest in human based solutions, and you can have a return on investment. So in a way, you can eat, you can have your cake. And you can eat it too, when it comes to buildings and and, you know, environment in business in green buildings is the epitome of that where this comes together in a very meaningful and very outcome based way.

Dan Seguin  12:26

How do we accelerate to a netzero economy? How can we create efficiencies to reduce environment at risks?

Thomas Mueller  12:36

Do you think there's the several, I think several factors playing into that and how we can accelerate that is one. First of all, I think we need good government policy. And we see that with the current federal government, they have actually done more on on climate change policy than all the previous governments taken together as far as I'm concerned. And it's finally good to see that we have made not only policy, but there's also investment issues seen in that in the budget, the last budgets come out and announcements before that. There's been a real investment or investments being made in in helping the economy and the Environment and Climate to move towards low and zero carbon. Because I think that the goals are clear, right that the goals are ambitious. But they're not ambitious in Canada, they're ambitious globally. But this government has really made an effort. And that starts with trust before the budget, where minister McKenna announced the I don't know how much money was but it wasn't one point, I think $1.6 billion for underserved communities, smaller and underserved communities in terms of retrofit and new buildings and buildings supposed to be, you know, low or zero carbon was an announcement by the Canada infrastructure bank financing program of $2 billion to finance retrofits in the commercial sector, like large building retrofits. There was announcements in the budget around the workforce development because we can't forget we also need to invest in the workforce so that people are skilled. And we have enough people that actually can kind of renovate or rent retrofit and build those buildings. And then also that investment in Canadian economy, in producers to decarbonize, right. So it's nice to say, you know, you need products that have a lower carbon footprint. But, you know, you've been talking from extraction, to manufacturing, to installation to us to disposal, that's a long lifecycle, and you need to decarbonize the whole product, product supply chain, in order to get there. So we so we have that part. So practice, government, and we also see replicated provincial level and you see it replicated at the local level. Many municipalities as you know, I've announced a climate emergency - great. But now, it's always the challenges. It's not just that you plan and you announce, but what about the implementation? How can you make that happen now, in buildings, again, is a natural go-to. Because government is the biggest owner of buildings in our country, collectively, the federal government owns a lot of buildings, municipalities and provinces all around the building. Federal government has announced for its own building that they want to build the buildings to zero carbon by 2030, or their own buildings, that they want to retrofit the existing buildings to low carbon performance. They're the only one to lease office space on leased buildings that is zero carbon buildings by 2030. So they take a lot of steps also, as an owner as a procurer of products and services, to go that route. But the second part, then is the private sector, we have to get the private sector on board. Because remember that you cannot, you cannot regulate your way out of this. We actually need the private sector needs to be at the table and actually invest in the low current economy. And for us, on the building side, we really see that happen. Many of our largest members in the council, large commercial real estate owners have invested in green buildings in a massive way, in their portfolio of buildings. We see governments across the country have federal government, provincial governments, local governments using LEED and other standards that we that we provide for their own buildings. So but the private sector mezzanine is really important. And this whole aspect of and I'm sure you've been following that is around sustainable finance, that all of a sudden, not all of a sudden, but companies across North America and abroad have realized that climate is a risk. And that if it's left unchecked, it will actually detrimental to their business. And they have started to shift their investment patterns into into the direction that mitigates carbon emissions, but also investments into resiliency, building up the resiliency of the building stock of the building stock. So you see a real shift that's happening now on a financial side as well. And that's very much business driven. So those two really have to come together. Because if business beliefs, and I see it happen, our business believes that climate risk is real, which they do. And they believe that they can actually get a return on the investment by investing in climate solutions, then this can move actually fought their way quickly, supported by good policy and good regulation, to raise the whole ship.

Dan Seguin  17:55

For this question, Thomas, could you share with our listeners examples of how does your council make inroads towards reducing the environmental impact of the build environment.

Thomas Mueller  18:09

So we as the council for just so everybody understands that. So we, we continue to be an environmental organization. But we very much industry led, so our board and our members represent a cross section of the of the green building or the building industry, from designers, to owners, to manufacturers, to investors, to developers, and so on. And that's by design. Because we need all the different professional, the different expertise and knowledge to different sectors and sub sectors at the table. What we do is and how we started off, and what we still do is we actually set advanced standards for buildings. So LEED is an example of that. That another one is the zero carbon standard that we launched, our over three years ago, we set advanced standards for buildings that go well beyond the building code. And these standards are set in a way with the industry. So we working with the leaders in the industry, the set of standards, because we want to have standards that work in industry. And that work well in industry. So the industry feels they can build those buildings to that level, they can invest on those buildings, and it's actually possible, but there is depending on how far you want to go. There's considerable amount of stretching there. So it's not being you're not satisfied with the status quo. So one way is we setting standards and then we also those those building owners and developers that use our standards, we actually certify these projects, so we make sure that the meeting of standards, so we have a verification, quality assurance process to make sure it's being met and depending on what they achieve. We recognize them publicly for that achievement. In Canada After the US, Canada is the largest use of LEED in the world. LEED exists nine in 200 countries, Canada was the first adopter of LEED. We're currently about 1.5 billion square feet in our LEED program alone, across the country coast to coast to coast. Any climate, any billing time, you can imagine in our program, we have certified close to 5000 of those buildings now. setting a new standard for buildings, but in a holistic way. So energy, carbon water waste, sites, how we treat the site habitat. And then also, of course, as we talked about human health and transportation as well. So this is one way and then Mr. Pointing is that this standard through education, we are credit professionals. We organize events, like our national conference every year, and also very specific industry events. And then we also convene leaders in the industry. And we do a considerable amount of effort activity, advocating with all levels of government, and also with the private sector as well, all with the focus to moving the needle forward. So it's really it's a we have a very comprehensive approach on how to move the industry forward and education in that we trained professionals. But we also have the workforce development, as I mentioned before, that we need to train, from the trades to the architects in sufficient numbers, so we can deliver green building at scale. Scale matters a great deal.

Dan Seguin  21:40

Okay, you've alluded to this a little earlier, with buildings generating almost 30% of Canada's GHG emissions. When construction materials, processes and operations are considered. Why are green buildings an actionable solution for helping Canada meet its global change commitments.

Thomas Mueller  22:01

Going back to what I said earlier, no initiative focuses very much on transportation. And I'm all for transit systems. I take transit every day, and I never drive to work. And so and obviously, the large emitters need also be targeted. But the fact is that we cannot reach our climate change goals without addressing the building sector is not just in Canada, I think it's recognized globally, particularly over the last five years, did buildings play a huge role in not just new buildings, again, we can build our way out of the climate crisis, we need to actually really focus on retrofit, and that includes a large building retrofit. So it counts as a substantial program around large building retrofits of those buildings, over 25,000 square feet, that they need to be retrofitted at scale in the 1000s. Actually, and that's actually miracle other jurisdictions, if you go into in the European Union, they dedicate is something like a thing was 230 billion euros to retrofitting buildings across the member states. So it's called as part of the new green deal that they have in, in Europe. And that's significant. So it just shows you that without the building sector, we will not achieve our climate change goals. It's impossible. So there's a realization now there is now investment in terms of policy and grant and funding programs and regulations. But we still have a half a ways to go. Because in Canada, we have like last time, we have about 250,000 buildings, and millions of millions and millions of homes that need to operate a lot better than they are right now.

Dan Seguin  23:49

Now, Thomas wondering if you can expand on these next questions. Can green buildings become an economic driver? Can green buildings stimulate growth in the green building sector? And lastly, how can a green recovery that prioritizes green buildings accelerate the post COVID-19 economic rebound?

Thomas Mueller  24:17

It's all great. Good questions. Very good questions that I can answer. And I have actually some figures for you because we did just that we actually did a last year, we released a green building report that we did it was for the second time and it's called the Canada's green building engine. And it talks about the critical decade ahead leading up to 2013. But it also talks about the economic recovery. Just to give you a sense then is that in 2014 we had close to 300,000 full time employees in the green building industry. So these were individuals that worked on green buildings in Canada in the two years and four years after that, so by 2018, this has had increased by 55%. And it was with very little, just a bit of government intervention. So 55, those numbers of jobs actually exceed the jobs that you have in forestry and logging in oil and gas mining, and some of the support activities to support the oil and gas industry. Because they had by 2018, to about 260 to 263,000 jobs, versus the 460,000 shops in the green building industry, I just wanted to point it out, because people always get the the idea that these are this is one of our biggest employers, when in fact, the green buildings team employs a lot of people. Now, we estimated that if we continue with business as usual, by 2030, so without intervention, you just, you know, leave it by own devices. The by 2030, will have about 940,000, direct green building jobs, and close to 95 billion indirect GDP from green for green building industry. And we will eliminate 22.5 million tonnes of co2 in Canada. If the government were to invest in we have seen some of the investment this can be aggregated up quite significantly. If the government were to invest significant amount of money, which we're seeing now, these green building jobs grew up to about 1.41 million jobs. And the carbon reduction could more than double close tomorrow, just about 50 million tons. Now, that's significant in terms of just economic growth. And what plays into that is also that you create not just jobs, but he also creates skilled jobs. And he also jobs as an opportunity to skill chops, across the board in particular trades can kind of go spilling industries actually using a jobs even before a pandemic to the retirement. And this is real opportunity to bring new people into the industry, young professionals in the industry in skilled jobs. Because constructing and building low carbon fuel carbon buildings requires an enhanced skill set we currently don't have across the board. It also provides an opportunity to be more inclusive, and more diverse now workforce bring parts of our society into this workforce that currently does not participate in active way. Women construction industry is notorious for not having broad employment of women or underrepresented communities. So it's a real opportunity. But it's really opportunity to grow the economy because I think, post pandemic, I think it would be unfortunate that we go back to the business as usual. I think it's a real opportunity to pivot and to be ambitious and say, What is the Canada that we actually want? What do we want our buildings what we want our neighborhoods? What What, what do we want our cities to look like in terms of carbon in terms of livability, in terms of environmental footprint terms of our economy, and this is the real opportunity for government to invest because we know now that when money is needed, it can be made available to invest in something we have learned from a pandemic, when there's the climate crisis, if you and I'm you know, I'm an optimist, but you often hear the climate crisis, it will be way worse than anything that happened on the COVID-19. And the likelihood is very high, that that will be the case. But we have an opportunity to change course. And if we change because we have to do it now. We can't wait another 10 years, if we don't get to our 2030 goals, we certainly will not get to our 2015 goals. So we really have to have all hands on deck and move that keep the move the needle forward and I think, in the course of that grew our economy and develop new jobs, that drops and low carbon economy. Now,

Dan Seguin  29:33

let's bring out your crystal ball and set the dial to 2030. And the question is as follows. How much difference will building be making to our progress to net zero goals?

Thomas Mueller  29:49

Well, I think that if I look to 2030, what would I want to have accomplished? I would think by 2030 I would want all new buildings over a certain size, they say 25,000 square feet to build zero carbon performance, we can already do that now, we already have 25 buildings in Canada that are zero carbon certified and another 50 plus in the pipeline. So we really can do that now. So that's one. The other one is I would want a large building retrofit. at scale, we estimated and don't say that that's a prime number. And you know, we talk to economists, and everybody has their own numbers, but they're all relatively close. But you have to look at it that over the next 10 years, we probably have to retrofit anywhere between 50 and 60,000 buildings, over 25,000 square feet to be 20 to 40% more carbon efficient after the retrofit than now. So that's a big number. It's, it's a big number, but it's not insurmountable. And then the third one is where we'd really like to see is have to work for us build up have a more diverse and more workers in the building industry, that is more representative of Canada. And, and I think that would be really something really a very desirable goal. And also to expand buildings, not just to the Green buildings is a little bit the perception, and I think it's not deserved, but it's mainly into urban centers, and so on. I think, with the announcement of the primary federal government also present small and under underserved communities, I would like to see green buildings all over the country, I like to see green buildings in neighborhoods that are considered to be on the low income side. Because I think my in my books, I think the people that are the least able financially, should actually have the greenest buildings, they should be demands, the buildings are the healthiest. And they should have buildings that cost less to operate or to rent or to live in than any other demographic in Canada. So I think that you're expanding that concept. And you know what, the already plenty of affordable housing projects that have been built to LEED. They've been schools and built to zero carbon. It's not like that. But I think it's goes back to scale. So in 10 years from now, I think I would just like green buildings everywhere, not just in a big urban regions in Canada, but everywhere. And this is really the challenge. And then it becomes not just, oh, it's a green building something different. It's just becomes a part of fabric of our lives that yes, you know, we have high expectations from our buildings, when it comes to environmental and health performance.

Dan Seguin  32:58

Interesting. Now, let's keep on looking into the future here. What are some of the emerging technologies, innovations that hold much promise for the future of energy efficient, and net zero homes? What's exciting new right now about this industry?

Thomas Mueller  33:18

What is excited me about my the industry is that there continues to be a movement for it, because the building sector is always considered to be very traditional and slow moving. But it's actually the green building sector that is moving forward very, very quickly, with big companies being at the table making decisions around the quality, and just the scale of what they want to do with their buildings that they own or control. So I think very excited about that, and just the technology innovation, in terms of new technology. I think that overall, for carbon emission reduction, we do see a lot of technology coming up now around, you know, that are connected to electrification of buildings, the buildings need to be electrified. And that within that context, you'll see you know, more highly insulated buildings. You see a buildings that either have at least part of the renewable energy on site. But also in Canada, we have the advantage to take advantage of our green electricity in many parts of the country. And in that regard, you know, heat pumps often come you know, to the forefront is a technology that is having its day now and in the future. Of course, it's still more expensive than traditional way of heating and cooling buildings. But there's that opportunity and I'm also a big fan of geothermal. Generally to exchange system, your thermal systems as a way to maybe not on a single family home, but on community development. So I think the district aspect of what we're doing, I think is really important to that, how we look into that because there's all despite the pandemic there's a lot of building going on in Canada and the big projects that are being planned in you know, in Ottawa, you have Zibi, you have the, the National Capital Commission is developing this piece of land law pipe in France, where they're very ambitious targets in Toronto and Mississauga and all over the country depicted here in Vancouver, we have big developments going in south of the Broad Street Bridge. One on native land, indigenous land, the very ambitious and how they think about what these communities could be and housing 1000s and 1000s of people. So, these are district systems, I think we need to, it's good to think about building by building, but we also need to think about what neighborhood and community scale and how do you transform entire communities to be low carbon performance, right. And so district systems definitely come into play here and district system that of course are on renewable energy, or connected to a clean energy, clean energy grid, and BC 95%, carbon free, Ontario as a cleaner Quebec, and Alberta has plans to, to get off, you know, coal based electricity. So it's all going in the right direction,

Dan Seguin  36:37

Acting as a voice of the green building industry, your organization has been advocating for green building policy with all levels of government and the private sector across Canada. Have your efforts impacted green building standards?

Thomas Mueller  36:53

Yes, it absolutely has. Because when, when we did the rating systems in Canada, they be using a voluntary, so they're not they're not in code, per se. They're done by the owners voluntarily, in our rating systems reference best available standards. So they're not just, you know, written the base of a napkin, this is a very solid, very credible, based on very credible standards. But the way they often many instances, go beyond the code. And what that does is in the past, I mean, continue to do that with a zero carbon buildings, it actually shows those that are in charge of developing the code, that these buildings can be built now at a reasonable cost. And that's very important, because in bringing it down to reasonable cost is necessary so that the code officials can say, you know, we can take that step now. Because everybody in the industry can do it now at a reasonable costs, because the no power is available, the products are available, technology is available. So they can probably and we have been told that in the past, they were able to take the code further, based on the voluntary action that the industry has taken that we could have done otherwise. And that's a really important role for the counselor as well to continue to push the envelope to push it forward to what's doable. And we've been very successful at that over the last since 2004. And so that's a very important role. But the regulations at the same time, also have become more ambitious. So we look for ticket cities like city of Toronto, City of Vancouver, they are probably more ambitious codes on what they would like how to like regulate new buildings. And now they are also particularly have started to also look at existing buildings. And the federal government is planning also to develop a retrofit code, which will be the first of its kind in Canada to really start addressing building retrofit. So again, through our work, we hope to continue to inform codes and what's possible from a kind of a market perspective. And then also what's possible from from a technical and technology perspective as well. So we see that as our role, we are kind of your breaking new paths when it comes to buildings. And we have members and stakeholders that are very committed to this idea to this mission, and to use their skills to make that happen. So that's one of the core roles that we have and we kind of quantify that then through our own standards. They make sure it's done right. And and it's it's it's measurable and you can report out on it. Let's try As parents, it's very important to us. Now,

Dan Seguin  40:03

let's deep dive, and maybe even explore some of the key market trends and drivers that are enabling and accelerating Canada's shift to high efficiency, zero emission buildings, and how could these impact Canada's green building industry.

Thomas Mueller  40:23

Now, the big shifts are clearly the recognition of climate risk by the private sector, which is also addressed in what they call ESG - environmental, social and governance frameworks. And also expressed as we talked earlier, about sustainable investment, sustainable finance. You know, Mark Carney is one of the big players in this globally when it comes to financial disclosures, addressing climate risk, but also sustainable finance. So this is a big trend, that means the private sector stepping up and coming to the table, investing in things that actually mitigate carbon or eliminate carbon or reduce climate risk altogether. The second one is, of course, that the policy around carbon, we heard a couple of weeks ago that our targets are moving up now to more 40-45% by 2030, being consistent with the United States, and being consistent with the global emergence of what the current target should be. And you know, timing matters, right? It's climate change. But in Canada, and particularly North accelerating faster than we thought. So acceleration requires more focused and more targeted action. The third piece of that is, of course, a carbon pricing. carbon pricing, as it leaves it up to the business sector, and everyone else to decide how they want to reduce the carbon is a very effective mechanism to achieve corporate action across the economy. It's even though the carbon price of $50 it's a step in the right direction, but we need to actually be moving up $150-$170, or potentially even higher over the next 1015 years, is a, it's a very important aspect of driving the economy forward when it comes to carbon reduction. Because let's face it, there is a price on carbon that we already paying, in terms of infrastructure, in terms of human health, there's all kinds of impacts, and there needs to be a price on carbon to achieve that reduction. So it's the sustainable finance. It's the policy, it's the the price on carbon. And, and then the other one, the big market trends to that claim to carbon, how we started off our conversation today is this balance with health and wellness, health and wellness has risen very much to the top. And Canadians, like most people will care about the health and well being may very well be a high quality of life in Canada. And they care about health and well being and I think the green building agenda, the green buildings can actually help to enhance the health and well being of Canadians. By meeting the environmental aspects of the that that lie before us. Now, when it comes to in mind, we always focus on carbon, but there's so many biodiversity there is, you know, air pollution, there is water pollution, there is toxic substances in the environment. I mean, the list goes on and on.

Dan Seguin  43:55

I'd like to visit or let's say revisit, what is the role of certifications and building codes? And do you feel they've raised the bar on energy efficiency, renewable energy, and sustainability practices?

Thomas Mueller  44:12

Oh, Green Building Standards certainly have done that they have raised that considerably. And it's really up to the project owner to the developer to decide how far they want to go. But we have raised considerably the codes now doing that as well. A probably one of the best examples being used right off now is the BC step code, where they actually give some predictability in British Columbia, when the codes requirement will increase so the steps one to five currently, it's step one, and then insert meeting goal step two and sign up so that the industry has a good line of sight what the expectations are with regards to increasing the the building performance, environmental performance, and so on. So I think that's a really good tool. And generally, the code, particularly the local level getting more ambitious for those municipalities that can actually go beyond the provincial code. And federally, like I said, the codes are moving towards near net zero. And also there's also be a retrofit code. So there's movement there, they the the international code is always a bit challenging because it can be developed naturally with together with the provinces, but then the provinces still have to adopt it. And that sometimes can take time. In some ways can take years, provinces can make modifications to the code. So if I can give one message with the code, the codes are moving up and being more ambitious. But at the same time, I think the pace of adoption means a great deal. Because the code is on a five year cycle. It takes you five years to update the code. And then you put it into the industry and the provinces have to adopt it, you can lose a lot of time, till actually the first building is built to the code so that the code development cycle and the implementation cycle, the adoption cycle has to speed up. Because it can be like sometimes can be a decade before the first building is built to a new code. And we don't have that time. And I think it's 2030. So I think that's something that really needs to speed up across the country.

Dan Seguin  46:37

Okay, let's have a bit of fun here. Thomas. How about you close us off with some rapid fire questions? Okay, here's the first one What is your favorite word?

Thomas Mueller  46:50

responsibility

Dan Seguin  46:52

What is one thing you can't live without?

Thomas Mueller  46:58

trees

Dan Seguin  46:59

Okay, that's cool. Okay. What is something that challenges you?

Thomas Mueller  47:05

status quo

Dan Seguin  47:07

Now, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Thomas Mueller  47:12

I would restore ecosystems globally.

Dan Seguin  47:18

Great response here. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him, Thomas?

Thomas Mueller  47:29

I would tell him that it probably comes easier that he would tell him to be non conforming. And that you can actually create a different future.

Dan Seguin  47:39

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Thomas Mueller  47:44

I find it interesting that the billing industry tends to be viewed as a traditional. But there's a whole segment and a growing segment of the industry that's driving innovation now. So I think that's a big shift in an industry that's been changed very, very passively change very, very slowly.

Dan Seguin  48:07

Thomas, I hope you had fun. I had a blast. I'm sure our listeners will truly enjoy this interview. Cheers. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The think energy podcast, and for past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.

According to a recent survey by chartered professional accountants Canada 34% of Canadians have fallen victim to scams and frauds. Sadly, the energy industry is no stranger to the world of scam artists looking to make quick money from unsuspecting energy consumers. Here with us to discuss the criminal minds behind utility scams is Jared Lawrence, Vice President of Revenue Services and Metering at Duke Energy. He is also the founder and executive committee chair of an organization known as Utilities United Against Scams - a sort of Justice League for the energy industry. Tune in to learn how to protect yourself and your loved ones.

Related Content & Links: 

• Jared Lawrence - Vice President of Revenue Services and Metering at Duke Energy
  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredalawrence/ 
• Duke Energy - https://www.duke-energy.com/ 
• Utilities United Against Scams - https://www.utilitiesunited.org

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Catch me if you can. Fyre festival, the greatest party that never happened. The Wolf of Wall Street and catfish. We love to watch movies about scammers, grifters and con artists, but we never want to be on the receiving end of their schemes. Yet, according to a recent survey by chartered professional accountants Canada 34% of Canadians have fallen victim to scams and frauds. And the Canadian anti fraud centre reports that in 2019, nearly 45,000 Canadians lost $96 million to scammers. It may or may not be surprising. But the energy industry is no stranger to the world of scam artists looking to make quick money from unsuspecting energy consumers like you and me. A scam is reported to the Better Business Bureau every 15 minutes. of the 30 different types of scams tracked and reported, the average financial loss to a utility customer is a whopping $500. And as we've seen firsthand in the energy industry, fraudsters are becoming more and more sophisticated. evolving with time. Scammers like to take advantage of opportunities throughout the covid 19 pandemic. We've seen an increase in their efforts through a call, text, email, and even show up in person at a customer's home and place of business to intimidate and threaten. A popular tactic includes posing as a representative of a local utility like Hydro Ottawa and demanding immediate payment for a supposedly overdue account. To add stress and pressure, they threatened to disconnect power within the hour if they do not get payment. Frantic customers already reeling from the pandemic and possibly economic hardships fall victim to these convincing criminals and their pressure tactics by purchasing prepaid debit cards, gift cards, any form of cryptocurrency, or third party digital payments mobile applications, utility companies have ramped up efforts to educate customers so they can be aware of the dangers of utility scams and avoid them. Hydro Ottawa for instance, has partnered with other large distributors in the province like Hydro One, Toronto hydro, and Alectra utilities over the last couple of years to help spread the word far and wide when a scam happens. So that as many regions as possible are notified. So here is today's big question: How can utility companies protect their customers from increasingly sophisticated schemes and fraud? Is the answer a united front? And on a personal note? Is this my first true crime podcast? We shall see. Joining me on today's show is Jared Lawrence, Vice President of revenue services and metering at Duke Energy, one of the largest electric power holding companies in the US. Duke Energy provides electricity to 7.7 million customers in Florida, the Carolinas and parts of the Midwest. Jared is also the founder and executive committee chair of an organization known as utilities united against scams - a sort of Justice League for the energy industry if you will. Batman. I mean Jared, welcome to the show. Now Jared, scams are such a big problem in our industry that there's a utility Scam Awareness Day. And National Scam Awareness Week. That's how big the problems gotten. What can you tell us about utilities united against scams and your vision when you started it?

Jared Lawrence  05:25

Well, that's an excellent question. And there's actually a Hydro Ottawa connection that I will, I'll get to in a second, Dan. Really, utilities unite against scams started as a result of an internal investigation at my company, we were hosting our CEO, actually, in our call center where both our customer care agents as well as the back office employees report to me, we're having a q&a session with our CEO. And one of the customer care specialists raised her hand and said, Ms. Good, I'm, I'm really concerned, we have a lot of customers calling up about scammers. And they're convinced that these scammers actually have their information. What are we doing about this? and this was back in 2015. So this was on this was in the context of a number of high profile breaches with major retailers that were in the media. And so this was something we were definitely heightened, had a heightened sensitivity to. And she actually looked at me as as one of the two leaders in the room and said, "Yes, Jared, what are we doing about that?" I said, "Well, we're not doing anything, right now. But we're going to start tomorrow." And so we had actually, we commissioned a SWAT team internally to make sure that there were no data breaches, no breaches with our vendors, no, inside bad actors who were sharing information with scammers. And it became apparent very quickly, that these scammers did not actually have customer information. They were just brilliant social engineers, and all of our information networks were completely secure. So we got to the end of that effort, it took about, you know, three weeks to do that intensive investigation. And then I said to the team "Well now what?" we're not going to leave these folks, you know, our customers out there to fend for themselves against these criminals. What do we learn from this? And what can we do about it. And it became apparent to me pretty quickly that, that this is a problem of international scale, but each utility was attacking it as an individual entity. And we would have so much more presence, so much more of a voice in the public policy space, if we joined together as the as the influential industry that serves the public, and use our clout to basically push for change and better protect our customers. So that's not the concept of utilities in order to get scams was born. I made the pitch to a number of attendees at CS week. And so for many folks in the utility industry are aware that this week is the the customer service focus conference for utility professionals. This was back in in the spring of 2016, then, and immediately the cause essentially sold itself there were 25 utility organizations represented in the room and every single one of them came up to me afterwards, and expressed interest in becoming part of this vision of this industry effort. But it was actually in a breakfast conversation, later on during the conference with Dave McKendry, who's retired from Hydro Ottawa, who's become a friend of mine through our board work on CS week. And he pulled me aside he said, Jared, I've been thinking a lot about your utilities united against scams effort. And I suggest maybe you consider a national campaign. And, and the fact that utilities across North America are coming together, to work together for this specific event, this specific campaign that's newsworthy in and of itself. And I think, Jared that if you if you take that approach, you you will be able to attract so much more interest in this cause, and, frankly, so much more membership, and he was spot on. I thought it was a fantastic suggestion. We made that kind of the centerpiece of our first few months of existence back in 2016, culminating with our national utility Scam Awareness Day and actually utility Scam Awareness Week in November of 2016. The US House of Representatives of course, recognized us with the declaration of national utility Scam Awareness Day. And we went from 25 utility organizations that expressed interest at that first conference to 89 members by the time we get to that campaign in November, and since then, we've grown to where we are today at exactly 150 across the US and Canada. So it's grown beyond what I honestly could have expected or hoped for, but certainly not beyond that vision of the industry coming together to protect our customers against us against this very important Scourge.

Dan Seguin  09:58

Very interesting, Jared. What types of scams are appearing most often? Can you provide some real life examples? And has the global pandemic altered scam activity and its frequency?

Jared Lawrence  10:14

Excellent question. And so at the core, the scam that was the main focus of utilities back in 2015, when I started our investigation at Duke Energy and, and it remains today, it's that classic disconnection threat scam. So a customer gets a call from out of the blue from somebody purporting to be a representative of the utility. And they state that due to some sort of problem with the account or some sort of problem with a payment being returned by a bank or some, you know, some fabricated excuse like that, the customer's account is now overdue, and there is a disconnection technician in route to turn off the customer's power. Usually it's power. Sometimes it's other utilities, but almost, it's almost always power within the next 30 to 45 minutes. And so the customer needs to act they need to go purchase typically a prepaid card and call the scammers back with that information within the next 30 to 45 minutes to prevent disconnection. That was their bread and butter back in 2015. It's still our bread and butter today. What's interesting is that we've seen little variations in scammers. They're attuned to what's happening in in their market, so to speak, and how utilities and law enforcement and others are reacting to their tactics. And so they've tried certain things. So for example, they're one of the things that we saw at Duke Energy was that when our smart meters were being deployed in each of our territories, and in our, in our six electric states, the scammers at various times would attempt to kind of take they change the tactic and focus on a meter deposit that the customer had failed to pay something that wouldn't typically show up on a bill and that kind of thing. Kind of trying to capitalize on that on the headlines associated with the utility. And with utility at that particular time, those didn't work very well. So we tend to see the attempt to collect that meter deposit, that scam fell off pretty quickly. We've seen the scammers attempt text and email. sporadically, those don't seem to work very well either, because they don't have the same level of immediacy that a phone call has. So those those tend to flare up at times and then die out on their own. We've seen the scammers explore different payment channels. So we've had some customers report that the scammers have asked them to pay in Bitcoin, which, of course is absurd, because I don't know about Hydro Ottawa, but The Duke Energy certainly does not accept Bitcoin. We've seen them requests zelle transfers, which are actually traceable. So that would work very well for the banks. We've seen a several scammers recently try and use cash app. But their bread and butter has historically been prepaid cards and you know, one or two prepaid cards in particular brands of which I won't mention on on this podcast. But there there are one or two that stand out above all the rest is being particularly susceptible to fraud.

Dan Seguin  13:25

Are there any specific population groups who are frequently targeted? How can we, as a community offer better support to these groups? What's the best line of defense?

Jared Lawrence  13:40

So, you know, again, as with everything that I've seen in the six years that I've been heavily engaged in this topic, they tend to go in cycles. And so in the beginning, it seemed to be random, the victims, the targets seemed to be random. And so since it was random, there was you know, statistically the vast majority of utility customers are residential. And so there was a heavy focus on residential customers. What we started to see is and obviously, I've never spoken with a scammer to validate this. But what we started to see was that the scammers started to use tools, probably online maps, you know, simple tools like Google Maps, etc. to determine what were the businesses in a particular area and how close were they to some of the retail outlets that sold the prepaid cards that they like to use. And the reason they were focusing on businesses is if if they caught up a residential customer, and they would say to a residential customer, you're behind on your bill, you I was two months Well, they really couldn't ask for more than you know, a couple 100 bucks because a typical residential customer knows that they're your average utility bills not going to be that much more than 100 bucks unless it's the heat of the summer that are the depths of winter, but they recognize that they started calling restaurants, veterinary clinics and and others that are fairly energy intensive that they could ask for 1000s of dollars, and it would work because at the same time they would they would get into a rhythm where they would call these particular businesses during what they knew to be, for example, a restaurants busiest part of the day during the lunch hour, a veterinarians busiest type of day, right mid afternoon when they might have had dogs and cats under sedation, a drycleaners busiest time of the day, right around five o'clock in the you know, post the rush hour period when people are dropping in to pick up their dry cleaning, things like that. The scammers became very intelligent about, again on that social engineering aspect of focusing in on the times when their victims were most vulnerable. What we've seen what we've tended to see and I do think that these scammers are paying attention and noticing the impacts from utilities united against scams, in that over the course of the last few years, we have forged a partnership with an organization called Somos, which is the toll free administrator, the toll free number administrator for basically all toll free phone lines across North America. And, and what started happening was that we were getting there, you know, through this partnership, we were having the scammers when 1-800 numbers disconnected. And the scammer started to recognize this and so they have migrated toward more of a robo calling model now, where they call up and they say instead of asking a customer to call back, they say press this number to speak to you know, press one to speak to somebody about your about your delinquent bill, for example. And, and because they're using robo calls now, it's much more random again. And so we're seeing a shift back toward a higher purpose preponderance of residential customers. Now all along we have seen particularly with utility scam, that Spanish speaking populations and Spanish speaking businesses in particular have been more vulnerable. And I think there's two reasons for this: The first of which is that in my conversations with law enforcement in my direct conversations with these scammers, because I talk to them a lot when I'm calling up to validate that they're using fraud numbers, I call them up and try and play along and pretend I'm a victim. They tend to be they seem to be originating from Spanish speaking countries, most likely in Latin America, and law enforcement has corroborated that. And sometimes when I call them up, they're actually answering the line in Spanish, meaning that they are targeting Spanish businesses in particular, at that particular time, and they seem to be much more fluent in Spanish than they are in English at times as well. So and so the reason that we think that these, this customer group is more vulnerable is because there is a, there's a natural language barrier between the routine communications that they would receive from utility versus the communications that they're receiving from these scammers. And therefore, that might cut through some of the awkwardness that a that a native English speaker might pick up on if they were being contacted by somebody who isn't an eight native English speaker, originally versus being a native Spanish speaker. And the second two is that there just seems to be a little bit of less of a reflex of distrust amongst, amongst Spanish speaking businesses and Spanish speaking community and a little bit of a greater trust in official communications, or official sounding communications rather than a reflex to immediately distrust something that is, hits them out of the blue. And so we have seen a disproportionate number of Spanish speaking businesses being targeted and showing up on our victims list.

Dan Seguin  19:00

So in general, Jared, is there anything customers can do to pro actively guard themselves or their loved ones against scams?

Jared Lawrence  19:10

Great question. So I am a big fan of these anti robo call services such as no Robo, it's the one that we use in our house. I'm not a paid spokesman for no robo. But I do actually I have through the scammer come to know the founder and president of No Robo. And, and so that, and from the car registries that he shared with us, we are seeing that they're doing a good job of blocking a lot of these scam calls that are coming from, they're coming from these criminals. So I recommend that because that'll just reduce the likelihood that households or businesses that these calls are making it through the filters in the first place. The second thing is really just to know the signs so you know the basics signs are that a utility. The first communication you get from a utility about a potential delinquent bill or a problem with a payment is not going to be 30 minutes before you're disconnected. And a true utility representative is not going to insist on one particular type of payment, they're not going to make you drive down the street to a local retail outlet, get a specific thing tell you not to talk to the clerk and then force you to come back and make that payment quickly. And if you express any doubts at all about the legitimacy of the call, a legitimate utility representative will be more than happy to have you contact the utility directly using the published number, the public contact channels on your actual bill versus what they give you. Whereas a scammer is going to resist all of those because they know once you do that the gig is up. So that's really those are the key there, you want to want to reduce your vulnerability or your your exposure to scam communications in the first place. And then if they do get through, just be highly educated on the signs.

Dan Seguin  21:12

Okay, great segue to this next important question. What are some ways to identify a utility scammer over the phone? Maybe via text message? And the scariest of them all at your door? What are the red flags to look out for and the best way to deal with them?

Jared Lawrence  21:36

So again, I did I think that the number one thing to keep in mind is that it is very rare that you will get an urgent communication from your utility, about a billing problem. That's it with disconnection being imminent, out of the blue, within the next 45 minutes, that that will be the first communication. So a utility scammer typically is is somebody who contacts you with a sense of urgency, and there's a lot of pressure built into that communication, they will then resist, they will try and give you talk you out of seeking independent verification of identity. So whether it's a call that you get, if you say well Do you mind if I just hang up and call the number back on your official website just to validate this, a scammer will try and talk you out of that they'll say something like the drivers already on his way. Or if it's even worse, if they're at your door. And you and you open the door and you are not expecting them, a utility representative will be more than happy to allow you to take the time to call the Customer Care Center to to validate their legitimacy. Whereas a criminal will try and convince you that something is very urgent and you don't have the time to do so. Those are some of the some of the most obvious signs of a criminal who's trying to pressure you into taking action before you have time to think and get the facts straight. The other thing to keep in mind, too, is and we've seen that we saw this from the very beginning when going back to that first customer care app or raising that concern because she felt that she was relaying the customers felt that their that their information had been compromised when in fact it wasn't just because a a somebody posing as utility rep seems to have your info, it does not make them legitimate. Unfortunately, most information about us as individuals as consumers is available out there on the web. That's just one of the sad facts about about, about modern life. Additionally, though, these scammers are are brilliant social engineers, and they're very good at making you think that they have legitimate information. So even if they a scammer calls up and they quote something that sounds like your legitimate balance, don't trust them. In fact, one of the one of the early cases that got that we researched that first month when we when we deployed that SWAT team I was talking about that really convinced me of the nature of this problem was we had one particular customer who had reported that the scammer had their balance their actual balance. And we looked at the account. And sure enough, the the information that the customer had reported to us did align with what their most recent bill was. And so we talked to the customer and we said well tell us how the conversation went. And they started to think about it. And what they what they finally recalled was that the scammer called them up and said there was a problem with your last payment your payment did not go through the the victim and said well wait a minute. Let me go I happen to be on my online banking system right now. Let me look right here. And I see my payment for $271.30 or whatever it was. It went through on October, October 4 or whatever it was. And then the scammer says no, I see your payment for 200 $71.30 it actually got rejected the next day, October 5 by your bank. And so now the person who was caught off guard by this call in the first place is thinking, Oh, this person's must be legitimate because he has a system right there and my payment is in it. And he knows all about my transaction? Well, no, you told them, you know, they tricked you into giving them that information. And so that's the other key is to never ever volunteer account information or personal information. If they, if somebody calls you up out of the blue, and they are legitimate, they will understand if you don't want to volunteer information, they will invite give you the opportunity to call back their official customer care line. But if if somebody calls you have a blue and starts asking for information about you, that is another clear sign that scam is is likely on, you're likely the victim of a scam.

Dan Seguin  25:51

Okay, worst case scenario. Now, let's say I'm a customer who fell victim to a scam, losing money and possibly personal information in process. What are my options? Is there anyone or anywhere specific that customers can turn to for help?

Jared Lawrence  26:12

There's some good news, but a lot of not good news to share on that front Dan. So the first thing I would recommend is if you have fallen victim, and if you have made a payment using any sort of you know, prepaid card or electronic payment channel, immediately call the fraud line associated with the payment method that you use to do it quickly. The reason is that, and I'm speaking about the prepaid cards in particular, the way these scammers work is that they're they're targeting multiple victims, you know, across the country at any given one time across the continent at any one time. And what they do is they they call you up, they trick you into making that payment. And, and basically in doing that they transfer your money from the card number you provide to a destination card that they're using to collect and use in quotes "launder" the funds. And then every few minutes, they sweep the money off of those cards. So there is typically a small window, where if the scammers have not liquidated those funds into the ether, that if you happen to call back, you might be able to get your money back. But you've got to move quickly because a lot of these payment channels that they use are attractive to scammers, particularly because they're non reversible. And, and so your timing has to be has to be very quick and very spot on with this. So that's that's the first thing to do. The second thing to do is to file a police report. Now, sadly, because these these criminals are typically perpetrating their crimes from offshore, they are not going to be reachable with local law enforcement. But nonetheless, it's important that you file a police report so that it enters the law enforcement database, it helps the various folks in law enforcement at the national level who are trying to create, you know, enough of a body of evidence to investigate these cases investigate these syndicates that are running these scams. And, and I'll also to mention that, for example, in the United Way to one one service here in North Carolina, and there are other organizations, they actually have resources that are available for victims of cybercrime and other frauds. So I would reach out to your local community assistance agency, if you have suffered any financial hardship as a result of being targeted, to determine what resources they have. I'm not aware of any that can restore the funds that you've lost, but they can maybe help you cope with any financial hardship that you're suffering in the near term as a result of being targeted. And then finally, you know, report the attempt to your utility because utility united against scams. We use this information to refine our strategies. We use this information for our engagement with our telecom partners, our engagement with law enforcement and government officials to him to support law enforcement efforts and to try and better shape public policy to protect customers against against these types of scams.

Dan Seguin  29:20

Now, maybe we can look at prevention. What are utility companies and police forces doing to help deter and fight against scammers? Can you tell us any success stories of scammers being deterred or better yet caught?

Jared Lawrence  29:37

Okay, well, I can actually share with you a couple of instances. These weren't directly related to the utility imposter scam. But the larger is the Canadian revenue associations that when CRA stands for Yes. So larger CRA scams, we celebrated when we read articles back in the fall of 2018, and again in 2019, where the Royal Canadian Mounted Police executed successful stings of scam call centers, basically running those texts, those tech scams against Canadian citizens. And in those timeframes. In one case, I believe they arrested 32 Indian nationals who were executing these scams out of a fraudulent call center. And another one, it was 28 criminals who were apprehended in those busts. And really the key there is again, you know, just countless reports of victims, each one a small victim of crime just building up to this very large case. There was also a recent case, in the US with the Internal Revenue Service scam, where I believe that the individual was arrested back in 2017 or 2018, but he was just convicted back in November of 2020, the ringleader, again another Indian call center operation that was running this IRS scam. And the ringleader there was sentenced to 20 years in prison and fined $9 million. So there are there are people in law enforcement at the national level, both in Canada and the US, who are who are paying attention and are specifically focusing on these, you know, very lucrative scams, these very lucrative criminal operations and building cases and seeking international partnerships to bust these operations. I think that those two are an example of of operations that were that were claiming hundreds of millions, if not more, dollars in ill gotten gains. And so they're probably slightly bigger fish in these utility scans. I don't I think these utility scammers are probably collecting millions of dollars a year but not hundreds of billions of dollars a year which is why these other tax related scams are gaining or gaining more attention.

Dan Seguin  32:16

Okay, thanks for sharing. Maybe Jared, tell us what is at the heart or lack thereof, of a scammers intention? What are some of the behaviors that are evidence of this?

Jared Lawrence  32:32

So, you know, one of the things that we have spent a lot of time understanding is what is this is utility imposter scammers M.O., Are they spending a lot of time researching their victims to create a really, you know, compelling story that increases their hit rate, or are they really they're going for high volume, low yield, but making their money off of volume. And it's really the latter. And so what I noticed very quickly, in the various countless times that I've called these fraud numbers to validate the phone numbers to get them shut down, frankly, is that the scammers very quickly try to ascertain whether you are a likely victim. So if you want to talk with them about anything about address change, sometimes I make up that I'm calling about an outage. They will immediately try and turn it into a conversation about an outstanding debt that would that is supposedly going to trigger a disconnection. And if you don't, signal any sort of gullibility toward it at that particular time, they're going to end the call really quickly. They'll try and do it in a way that makes it seem polite enough that you'll still walk away from that thinking that it was legitimate utility interaction. But in reality, you once you step back, you realize they didn't give me any customer service at all. They were they were just trying to figure out if I was, if I was likely mark for them or not. That's the biggest one. The second biggest one is that, you know, we, our customer care agents go through countless hours of training in order to how to maintain professionalism, how to be attentive to customers to listen to their needs. The scammers, they get frustrated really quickly and and if you attempt to call them out, they will very quickly turn on you and say some things that are very rude things that can't even be repeated on podcast. So that is another obvious giveaway is that if the if the person you're talking to starts to become rude, aggressive, or exerts pressure in any way, they're not utility representative.

Dan Seguin  34:44

Okay. Now, in contrast, tell us what's at the heart of any utility as they engage with customers. How can customers use these contracting intentions as a litmus test?

Jared Lawrence  34:58

So recognizing that these scammers might listen to this podcast, I've always a little bit careful to give away all of the strategies I use to validate that when I'm calling them up that they're indeed scammers. However, the obvious signs of a trained utility rep are number one, they're going to be attentive to your needs. Number two, they are not going to try and pressure you in anything, because our goal is to make sure that you are a happy customer that you're getting the service that you need. And if you happen to be facing financial hardship or difficulty paying, we're not going to threaten you with this connection, we're going to offer up payment arrangements, ways to structure your utility debt so that you can maintain service with us, the last thing that a utility professional has to do is to see your account be disconnected for non payment, our goal is to try and work with you as much as we can to keep you engaged in to work within your means with deferred payment arrangements and things like that. So if they if the person on the line is not really working with you, then that is a and they had called you first and that is you know, a pretty obvious sign right there that they're not a not a legitimate utility representative. Secondly, also, as I mentioned before, a scammer is not going to want want to spend any time talking with you about anything other than you are making a payment to them quickly. So if you have questions about say value added products and services, or if you, you know, are having service, you had a service disruption due to a storm or something like that. You can always ask a question about that and see how they handle it. And if they handle it with knowledge, and they actually are able to are showing a willingness to take the time to understand your issue, then that's a more than likely a legitimate utility. Utility representative. If, however, they constantly bring it back to your outstanding your fictitious outstanding debt, then you know, you're dealing with a scammer.

Dan Seguin  36:59

Finally, Jared, what does success look like for utilities united against scams? What is your hope for the next 5 or 10 years?

Jared Lawrence  37:12

So, you know, I read my originally instead of this Dan kind of changes I thought about a little bit more, especially as we have our five year anniversary of utility united against scams coming up just in just next week, actually. And, you know, I was thinking the knee jerk reaction reaction would be to say, Well, I'd like I'd like us to basically put these scammers out of business so that we don't, so we can disband so that there's no need for utilities united against scams. I think that that is a you know, a little bit too rosy of course, I think that I do like to make these utility imposter scams go away. And then just maintain kind of maintain the collaborative, but maintain it in such a way where we're just touching base sharing for information about anything that might be looking suspicious in our markets, and making sure that we are keeping scam activity at a minimum and keeping law enforcement policymakers fully engaged so that scams don't flare back up to the problem that they are right now. So my goal really is to is to achieve that combination of policy, solutions, as well as sheer operational tactics with partners in telecom and the prepaid card space in the other financial mechanism that the scammers use to shut down the loopholes so that this utility imposter scam goes away. And then utilities united against scams is a organization that just meets periodically to keep tabs on the market and make sure that things aren't flaring up again.

Dan Seguin  38:51

Okay. This is it. Jared, are you ready to close us off with some rapid fire questions?

Jared Lawrence  38:59

Sure. Hit me, Dan.

Dan Seguin  39:01

Let me start with this first one. What is your favorite word?

Jared Lawrence  39:06

My favorite word this year is "yes". And I say that is because we did we accomplish so many things on the fly, responding to the pandemic, and the important things that we as utilities had to do to help take care of our communities last year, that previously the answer would have been either No, or it's going to take us a long time to figure that out. So I feel like I and the rest of the industry have been opened up to the power of possibility and so this is the year of of answering all those possibilities with Yes.

Dan Seguin  39:44

Great answer. What is the one thing you can't live without?

Jared Lawrence  39:50

My morning workout.

Dan Seguin  39:51

Moving on. What habit or hobby Have you picked up during shelter in place?

Jared Lawrence  39:58

I started making mead. It is, I find it delicious. I'm not sure that those of my family or my wife have the same opinion. But I would.

Dan Seguin  40:11

Okay, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Jared Lawrence  40:16

The ability to sleep through the night without waking up for a variety of reasons.

Dan Seguin  40:21

If you could turn back time, and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell him?

Jared Lawrence  40:27

I would tell him not to be so shy I was, I was fairly shy. In my pre professional life, and even the early years of being in the professional world, and I've come to learn that you missed out on a lot by being shy.

Dan Seguin  40:43

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Jared Lawrence  40:51

Wow. So there are so many interesting things going on. But I think what is most interesting to me, and the reason why I'm excited to be in this industry for at least another 15 years before I'm ready to retire, is that societies are have made it one of their central goals to achieve carbon neutrality. And utilities are at the center of that not only in terms of hitting our goals within our companies, but being the ones best positioned to offer solutions to help major industries that are our customers help achieve their carbon neutral goals. And so I think the amount of opportunity and the number of interesting challenges that we face in the utility industry on that front is very exciting to me, and one of the reasons why I'm thrilled to continue to be utility leader.

Dan Seguin  41:44

So true, and well said, Jared. Okay, well, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I really hope you had a lot of fun.

Jared Lawrence  41:58

I did. This was fantastic. Dan, I hope you can tell I am really passionate about fighting scammers, fighting criminals who take advantage of utility customers and so I welcome any opportunity to talk about this topic.

Dan Seguin  42:13

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes. Make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast blog. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.

Young people offer incredible opportunities for change with their new ideas and verve. However, part of the challenge for young people around the world is finding a platform from which their voice can be heard and valued. Thankfully, when it comes to the energy sector, climate change, and what's in store for the future, an organization by the name of Student Energy seeks to bridge that gap. Here with us to discuss the keys to unlocking a sustainable energy future and how we can work together with today's youth to get there is Shakti Ramkumar, Director of Communications & Policy at Student Energy.

Related Content & Links: 

• Shakti Ramkumar - Director of Communications & Policy, Student Energy
  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaktiramkumar/?originalSubdomain=ca
• Student Energy - https://studentenergy.org
• Global Youth Energy Outlook Questionnaire: https://studentenergy.questionpro.ca/a/TakeSurvey?tt=GC5ugs4vOPw41XrSuBk1ew%3D%3D
• Learn more about the Global Youth Energy Outlook: www.studentenergy.org/outlook 

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey folks, welcome back to another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast, youth climate change, clean energy, the future. These are all pretty loaded topics. But believe it or not, we're here to discuss all of these today, and how they're connected. With every new generation that comes of age, there's a fresh perspective introduced to the table. Young people offer incredible opportunities for change with their new ideas, and verve. However, part of the challenge for young people around the world is finding a platform from which their voice can be heard and valued. Without well established networks and resources, young people can easily be stifled or forgotten. Thankfully, when it comes to the energy sector, climate change, and what's in store for the future, an organization by the name of Student Energy seeks to bridge that gap. Student energy is a Global Youth led nonprofit organization that strives to empower young people to accelerate their sustainable energy transition. They connect young people to global changemakers and provide them access to decision making spaces, so that they have opportunities to play a part in their energy future. They started with three driven students who, in 2009, set out to organize the first international student energy summit. Since then, it has expanded into a global organization, with programs engaging over 50,000 students from over 120 countries, alumni are going on to develop and implement renewable energy technologies, advise the United Nations and advocate for a clean energy future while working with some of the largest energy companies. So here's today's big question. What are the keys to unlocking a sustainable energy future? And how can we work together with today's youth to get there? So joining me on today's program is Shakti Ramkumar, Director of Communications and policy. Shakti oversees a strategy and operations of the organization as it continues to build the movement of students across the world committed to a sustainable energy future. Shakti, thanks for joining us today. Perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself, your background, and what led you to becoming the Director of Communications and policy for Student Energy.

Shakti Ramkumar  03:47

Hi, Dan, thank you for having me today. So I'm currently the Director of Communications and policy at Student Energy, and it was a bit of a winding path for me to get here. I've been deeply concerned about climate change since I was really young. My very first science fair project when I was in third grade was actually on public transportation, and how it could reduce emissions for my city if we replaced a lot of car traffic with rapid transit like sky trains and buses. And after that, I did a whole bunch of projects on ecological footprint on using phase change materials to heat homes. And this initial experience of trying to find solutions and explore solutions is what led me to Student Energy. When I was in university at UBC, I was actually a participant in one of student energies programs called Generation energy, where I hosted a dialogue focused on what you'd want to see for the future of BC. And the reason I want to bring this project up is all of the youth champions from across Canada gathered in Winnipeg to put together a vision for Canada's energy future. And we were able to come up with this in about half a day. We were able to work through our differences and figure out the common values that we share. And what we want to see in Canada in about half a day, and that really demonstrated that young people just have a lot in common regardless of where they're from, and what situations they're living in. So that initial experience with Student Energy as a participant is what started my journey here.

Dan Seguin  05:17

Are you able to unpack for me? What's a sustainable energy future for us? And why is it so important that we work towards it? And what might it look like once we've achieved it?

Shakti Ramkumar  05:31

A sustainable energy future, for me is one where our global energy system is designed to support people and communities to thrive. And doing that through clean, affordable and reliable energy. To limit global heating to 1.5 degrees, which we know is necessary for the safety and survival of so many people and ecosystems, we will have to shift away from fossil fuels and drastically reduce our carbon emissions within the next really critical few years. And what would a sustainable energy future look like once we've achieved it? For that, I really want to emphasize that part about energy being a means for people and communities to thrive. Because I think sometimes there's a tendency to say, well, this renewable energy technology isn't capable of meeting this high level of energy demand. So we can't possibly shift away from the current system. And take, for example, one of the arguments that we often hear at Student Energy is, well, we couldn't possibly electrify every single car and truck on the road. Because we'll need a lot of minerals, it's going to cost a lot, it will have so many adverse impacts. And that's where we have to take a step back. And remember, the goal is not to replace every single car and truck on the road with a different cleaner version, the goal is mobility for people to get to where they need to go to meet their basic needs, and just enjoy their lives. And if we keep that end goal in mind, we won't have to reduce the energy transition to just swapping out one energy source for another. But really zeroing in on what makes a community livable and supports people to thrive and building an energy system around that. And we can do that with a combination of things from walkable communities, lifestyle shifts to reducing energy demand, ensuring people's basic needs are met through public transit, and then where we need them the odd electric car. So my point there is that a sustainable energy future is really not just about swapping energy, one energy source for another, but focusing on the end goal, which is we want a good standard of life for everyone. Now, this year,

Dan Seguin  07:32

I see that Student Energy launched a very unique research project designed for millennials to share their perspective on the energy transition. Student energy has named it the Global Youth Energy Outlook, the first project of its kind made by youth for youth around the world. What was the inspiration behind the development of this project?

Shakti Ramkumar  08:00

So yes, the Global Youth Energy Outlook is a report that we're developing. And it's completely led by young people for young people. And we're gathering perspectives from 1000s, 10s of 1000s of youth from all over the world on what they want to see for the energy future of their region. And the first phase of that research is a 10 minute questionnaire that but that we're inviting all young people who are between 18 to 30, to take, and there are a few things that inspired us to create this report. And to start developing it. The main reason is that we will be the ones building the infrastructure, implementing the policy changes, changing our communities, and as we work to address the climate crisis, and therefore we should be considered important stakeholders in that process. And for a long time, young people were either left entirely out of the energy sector or tokenized, without being given a real voice, and student energy was founded to create to change both of those things. And now we're doing that on a global scale with the Global Youth Energy Outlook. Another reason we were inspired to create this report is to show that young people are not a monolith. The outlook is led by 12 young regional coordinators in 10 regions around the world. And they're actively building that works in their own communities that kind of highlight the unique energy challenges that face each region, and to demonstrate that young people are engaging on that community level, and solving the kind of nuanced complex energy issues in their region and that we can't be treated at a global monolith.

Dan Seguin  09:33

And now, what are the key issues addressed in this questionnaire? How did Student Energy narrowed down the questions to ask what do you hope to achieve with the data collected from the Global Youth outlook?

Shakti Ramkumar  09:51

So the questionnaire covers quite a wide range of topics. We the big question we're asking is what young people want the energy mix in their region to look like in 2030. And we're also asking who young people believe is most responsible for reducing greenhouse gas emissions, whether they believe their governments are investing enough and fighting climate change. And we're also asking which policy options but young people prioritize over others in order to achieve net zero emissions. And these are really important questions for both young people to know how other youth around the world see the future of energy in their region, and also for decision makers in the energy industry to see where their future voters, consumers and workers are heading. So these are the big areas that we're covering in the questionnaire. And narrowing down the questions to ask was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. I think we started with 160 questions and realized well, no one's gonna take the survey, he asked 160 questions. So we cut it down to about 40. And then cut it down to even further to just 10 questions covering the most important things with the option for people to take the 40 question one if they if they're particularly interested. So now it just takes 10 minutes, covers the the most important pressing questions that we had from our very long version. And we are quite excited about what this report could mean and what impact it could have once it's completed. For young people, we want this to be a powerful data backed tool that they can use to lobby their city governments, their state governments, their federal governments, the energy companies in their region to take action showing that here's what 1000s of young people around the world, your most important constituents and stakeholders want to see for the future of energy. And here's what what we want to do to help make the future happen. So we hope it's an advocacy tool for young people. And on the flip side, we also think it will provide some really important insights for people in government, people in the energy industry. And we've already heard from a number of our partners that they really need this kind of report in their own decision making to have kind of numbers and evidence behind what young people want to see. And using that to push their own climate action plans forward. So we hope it'll be a tool on both fronts for both young people and for decision makers to understand how best to work together.

Dan Seguin  12:19

By the way, folks, there will be a copy of the questionnaire within the show notes. Okay. Why is it so important that millennial voices on energy and sustainability be heard? What do you think are the most important distinguishing beliefs and/or values of this generation compared to other generations? And finally, what can older generations like mine be doing to better support this group?

Shakti Ramkumar  12:55

I think there are two main things that we have recognized are distinct about young people's values when it comes to the energy transition that kind of makes this era of the environment and climate movement a little bit different than the previous era. One is the timeline in which young people expect action. We're seeing commitments now, finally, from companies and governments about aiming for net zero emissions by 2050. And young people who are climate activists are saying, Okay, that's good, but we need to see action right now. And that's why our Global Youth Energy Outlook actually works on a timeline leading up to 2030, not 2050. As we will have to take drastic climate action by then if we want to act in accordance with climate science. So as the years pass, and our global climate commitments are still not strong enough to meet the 1.5 degree target that we've set as a collective the sense of urgency among young people, I think, is something that is really distinct. The second big value that we've seen from young people is that we are not siloed in our thinking, and that young people won't consider it a success. If we successfully decarbonize our energy system. The harms that the current energy system has inflicted on people and communities, and haven't made sure that the benefits of the clean energy transition are equitably distributed. So an emphasis on seeing energy as a mechanism through which we can build a more just and equitable society is something that is a really strong value for young people that I think is something new to the energy transition. And on the question of what can older generations do, at Student Energy, we really value intergenerational collaboration. We have a lot to learn from people who have set up the energy system as it is now about the complexities and the nuances of producing distributing supplying energy, so we really value intergenerational collaboration. And there's three main things that I think older generations can do, particularly those with resources. power to make decisions. One very simple invest in young people. That can look like financially supporting youth led organizations, youth led projects, or investing time through mentorship and guidance. Two is understand the value of youth, a lot of work organizations, we want them to really think, are we meaningfully engaging with young people? What can we do to meaningfully and equitably engage with young people, not just on a tokenistic basis, but on a really kind of equal relationship. And this is something Student Energy often works with organizations to help them figure out especially if they're navigating youth engagement for the very first time. And the third thing I would say is to create space for young people, older generations who have access to a large platform, or an influential position, think actively about how you can make space for young people are using that privilege. Whether this looks like asking an event organizer why there are no young people on the panel and recommending some young people join that panel, whether it looks like bringing up in a meeting, why we're not funding youth led organizations, or taking into consideration the youth voice when making that next strategy, that next plan. These are some tangible ways that older generations can really support young people.

Dan Seguin  16:20

I read that you served as the director of common energy at the University of British Columbia, one of the university's largest student sustainability organization. Can you tell us about that experience? I'm curious, what did you work on? What did you learn? And did anything surprise you?

Shakti Ramkumar  16:43

So at Common energy, our goal was to build community first and foremost, and invite people into the climate movement, many of them for the very first time as they entered university, and to help people understand the links between themselves as an individual and the changes they can contribute to as a collective. So we were all about tangible action. We recognized early on that one of the best ways to get people involved was to do something real physical and hands on. So we conducted waste audits on campus, we hosted student friendly plant based cooking workshops, things you can do in your dorm, we launched a reusable mug share program at our campus cafe. And while doing these hands on projects, we also held workshops on climate justice, on food justice, on transforming our cities. And these would regularly draw a packed crowd, because I think there's a real desire from young people to see what they can do to contribute to larger systems change. So we kind of brought both perspectives like here's what you can do on a day to day basis, using your time and your skills and your expertise. And here are the bigger issues that we need to always keep in mind on justice and equity that we're collectively working towards. So that was my big goal as director of common energy. I learned a lot during this time. And the most important thing, I think, is that collaboration and sustaining a movement is not easy, and it actually takes work. It takes intention and consistency. And isn't just something to say you're going to do and then it just happens. While I was co director of climate energy, I also collaborated with all the other climate and sustainability related groups on campus. And together, we worked to launch the UBC climate hub, which is now a fully fledged student driven initiative at UBC entering its third year. And what made us successful at the time was, yes, we were very concerned and passionate about climate action. But we also took meeting minutes, we helped each other stay accountable. We encouraged people to rest when they were burnt out. We chased every staff and professor who seemed even remotely likely to support us, we built a network of supporters and engaged every single day to working towards this vision. And I think these day to day things are what will make the climate movement successful. So a lot of people might see, you know, big climate strikes on TV or big speeches. But it takes a lot of coordination behind the scenes to to make that an impactful experience. And it takes a lot of just hard work and working with people's personalities and working in big groups and making sure everyone feels supported. And that those minute details I think are what I took away most from my experience at UBC.

Dan Seguin  19:27

Well done, Shakti, based on your learnings from working with UBC and student energy. What do you think are the most important energy transition steps to be taken now by governments, businesses, and individuals in order to have a significant impact by 2030 and by 2050?

Shakti Ramkumar  19:51

I think number one has to be to actually set emissions reductions targets that meet the scale of the climate crisis. All countries are still behind when it comes to their nationally determined contributions for the Paris Agreement. And I think the most important action now would be to be honest about the magnitude of the climate crisis and not hide behind far off targets, while leaving it hazy how exactly we're going to get there. So recognizing the carbon budget that we have, and setting real targets that will get us to our 1.5 degree target, I think it's the first step. The second one is, of course, our mission at student energy is to get people to recognize the importance of young people and to invest in youth, young people will be the ones to work in the energy system of the future. And right now, many renewable energy companies and even other energy companies that are trying to transition to clean energy, are looking at a major skills shortage. So if they want innovative ideas, fresh voices, building a dynamic workforce of the future, we need to bring in more young people. And we need to bring in young people who have historically been excluded from the energy space. This includes women, young people of color, indigenous youth youth from the global south, and ensure that whatever energy system we're building is actively mentoring and training young people to be a part of it. And this is a major gap that we're seeing in both renewable energy companies, and just the energy sector overall.

Dan Seguin  21:26

Now, I'm looking forward to hearing how you'll be tackling this next question. What do you think, are the greatest challenges ahead for sustainable energy transition? What will be essential to overcome them? What are the consequences if we don't?

Shakti Ramkumar  21:49

This is a great question. I mean, I've talked a lot about how we're failing to invest in young people. And I do think that's one of the greatest challenges. And the consequence, of course, is that we will not have people to to transform the energy system if we're not investing in training up young people. But another challenge in for the sustainable energy transition that's always on my mind is just the fact that a lot of the solutions we need do exist, they already exist. For example, improving energy efficiency could enable I think, 40% of the emissions reductions, we need to meet our climate goals without new technology. But despite that global improvements in energy efficiency have been declining. They're extremely slow, just 1.2% a year. And even as of last year, over 2.6 billion people around the world don't have access to clean cooking facilities. And this number has shifted so slowly over the past 20 years, and these kinds of things make it clear that many of the technologies and solutions we do need already do exist. And what we need is for people and companies and governments to broaden their definition of what innovation means, not just focus on novelty on emerging technologies, but to actually create incentives to implement and scale the solutions that we know that they work to, to accelerate the energy transition. So that's a big challenge that I see. A final challenge is not seeing the importance of nature and land in the energy system. And kind of seeing that as a separate environmental issue, which I think is sometimes the case in the energy sector. And I think this will have major consequences. First of all, we can't meet our climate goals, if we're not thinking about the natural ecosystems that we depend on about our unsustainable food system. If we're not supporting indigenous leaders who are on the front line of climate action, whether that is fighting against extractive industries, deforestation and land grabs, if we don't see that as part of the energy transition, there's no way we'll successfully meet our climate goals. And I think this is the responsibility of everyone working on an energy to also think about nature and land and in the work that they do.

Dan Seguin  24:05

Now Shakti, what makes you tick? How has your own lifestyle changed as a result of your studies and work on achieving sustainable energy? Was there a turning point for you? And how has the goal of a sustainable energy future challenged you personally?

Shakti Ramkumar  24:27

Since I was young, my parents have always encouraged me to think about fairness. And so I do take my own lifestyle choices pretty seriously as a type of climate action, especially living here in Canada. I think there's sometimes tends to be some binary thinking about whether we should focus on individual action or whether we should fight for systems change. And to me, those have always seemed like parts of the same whole. To me making the choices that are within my reach, whether that's going vegan, not buying too many things that I don't need. These are things that align with my values and something I've taken on as a result of my work. And they also fuel my commitment to systems change work. And I think the choices we make as individuals, as families of households, they lay the foundations for the kind of society that we're working to build as a collective. So I do try to think about, okay, if the policies and changes that I'm fighting for through my work become a reality, how would that trickle down to me as an individual? How would that change my life, and then I just try to do some of those things already, while we're still fighting for them. And what makes me tick, honestly, it's just community and having friends who are doing this together, I think the magnitude of the climate crisis and the barriers we face to climate action are so overwhelming, and honestly, sometimes really discouraging that we have to fight so hard to shift the needle so little, so slowly. So it's really necessary to find some joy within all of this and find people who you can laugh with. And this is why, you know, climate memes are a really big thing on the internet, because we need this laughter and these moments of joy to keep this movement going.

Dan Seguin  26:09

What do you think, is the most important thing that today's youth should hear right now, as it relates to sustainable energy? What call to action would you give them

Shakti Ramkumar  26:24

so for young people who are passionate about climate action, my message is to really consider the role that you can have in changing the energy system and in shaping the energy future, energy has often been a space that seems really inaccessible to a lot of young people. You know, there's the sense that you need an engineering degree, you need connections, you need a lot of money, to work in energy. And groups, like student energy are actively trying to change that. To help all youth understand that no matter what background, you're from, what career you're trying to have, understanding the complexities of the energy system, and seeing yourselves as part of the energy transition, are just a really important part of the future that we're all working towards. And there's also a lot of exciting opportunities on the horizon, in energy, and in all kinds of fields. So my message to young people is really kind of engage with energy and consider it as a possibility if you if you've never thought about it, to consider as a possibility. And to not shy away from the hard questions on energy. So what will it take to produce enough clean energy to meet the world's needs? What do we need to do to make sure everyone has access to energy, which utilities and regulators and power companies need to step up their game on climate action? What infrastructure needs to be upgraded? getting into the details and considering energy as a space for major systems change as well as a fulfilling career? I would say as my main call to action on the long term for young people, and student energy is here to make that happen for you. And on the immediate scale, I would say, you know, check out our Global Youth Energy Outlook questionnaire, because we really want to hear from young people from all backgrounds. And this is how we'll make kind of global policy change in the energy system.

Dan Seguin  28:17

Okay, now for the fun part. Shakti. Are you ready to close us off with our rapid fire questions?

Shakti Ramkumar  28:25

Yes, I sure am.

Dan Seguin  28:27

What is your favorite word?

Shakti Ramkumar  28:30

Since it's spring: metamorphosis.

Dan Seguin  28:34

What is one thing you can't live without?

Shakti Ramkumar  28:38

Oh, honestly, it's just time to be silly with friends.

Dan Seguin  28:42

What habit? Or hobby? Have you picked up during shelter in place?

Shakti Ramkumar  28:48

This was unexpected for me, but painting.

Dan Seguin  28:52

Cool. If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Shakti Ramkumar  28:59

I'm gonna cheat and say I would love to teleport. And wherever I land, I would like to speak the language that is spoken there.

Dan Seguin  29:05

Now moving on, if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell her?

Shakti Ramkumar  29:12

I would say, go to more parties, because soon you'll have to sit in your bedroom for a whole year and not hang out with people.

Dan Seguin  29:20

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Shakti Ramkumar  29:26

I mean, there's a lot going on. But I'm really excited about the possibilities around distributed energy.

Dan Seguin  29:31

Well, Shakti we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. I truly hope you enjoyed this interview. And I hope you had a lot of fun.

Shakti Ramkumar  29:41

Definitely. I had a great time.

Dan Seguin  29:44

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes. Make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.

Let’s talk about the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees. Did you know that across North America, pollinators are in a steep decline. It may seem like an unlikely union, but utilities are ideally suited to restore these environments. Here with us to discuss Hydro Ottawa’s latest partner project to create one of the largest pollinator meadows of its kind in Eastern Ontario is Tracey Etwell from Canadian Wildlife Federation & Meaghan McDonald from Rideau Valley Conservation Authority.

Related Content & Links: 

• Tracey Etwell
  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/traceyetwell/
• Meaghan McDonald
  • Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meaghan-mcdonald-83b08083/
• Canadian Wildlife Federation
  • Twitter: https://twitter.com/cwf_fcf
  • Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/canadian-wildlife-federation/
  • Website: https://cwf-fcf.org/
• Rideau Valley Conservation Authority
  • Twitter: https://twitter.com/RideauValleyCA
  • Website: https://www.rvca.ca/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast. On today's show, we're going to talk about the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees - literally. Did you know that across North America, the populations of monarch butterflies, bees and other pollinators are in a steep decline due to herbicides, pesticides, climate change, and a reduction in natural pollinator habitats. Pollinators are responsible for a third of the world's food supply, so they are extremely vital to our existence. In Canada, there are more than 1000 species of pollinating animals that are responsible for billions of dollars worth of Canadian farm produce, flowers, and ecosystems that rely on pollination. In short, without pollinators, food supply would suffer drastically. It may seem like an unlikely union, but utilities like Hydro Ottawa are ideally suited to restore these environments, thanks to a number of utility corridors and properties in their service territories, not to mention the kilometers of power lines, and right of ways along roadsides. Moreover, vegetation along utility corridors are compatible with these types of vegetation necessary to support pollinators. In 2019, Hydro Ottawa began civil construction of its largest ever municipal transformer station in the south end of Ottawa situated on 24 acres of land. Since the new transformer station requires only five acres of property, Hydro Ottawa partnered with the City of Ottawa, Rideau Valley Conservation Authority, and the Canadian Wildlife Federation to create one of the largest pollinator meadows of its kind in Eastern Ontario, adjacent to this future station. The agreement means that 15 acres will be dedicated to a pollinator meadow, which is scheduled for seeding in the spring of 2021 A four acre tree reforestation area was reforested in 2020, with 2750 trees, thanks to the Rideau River Conservation Authority. So here is today's big question. What goes into a successful pollinator meadow? And how can we as an industry, and as ordinary citizens help the movement by building more pollinator meadows? Maybe in our own backyards? I have two guests joining me today for this podcast. My first guest is Tracy Etwell, a restoration ecologist with the Canadian Wildlife Federation. Tracy supports the right of way program, which helps restore pollinator metals for monarch butterflies and other pollinators in Eastern Ontario. My second guest is Meaghan McDonald, Lake planning and shoreline stewardship coordinator for the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority. There are 36 conservation authorities in Ontario responsible for furthering the restoration, development and management of watershed and their natural resources across the province. Thank you both for joining me today. So, Tracy, let's start with the Canadian Wildlife Federation. What are pollinators? What important role do pollinators play? And what does pollinator habitat look like?

Tracy Etwell  04:37

Great question, Dan. So as a group, there are many species that are pollinators. And if people aren't aware, there's things like native bees, flies, moths, butterflies, beetles and even our hummingbirds are pollinators. But when we talk about our pollinator habitat in our project, we're really focusing on the insects such as our native bees, flies and butterflies. And pollinator habitat varies depending on each species, but all insect pollinators benefit from open meadows full of wildflowers and grasses. And these native flowers provide the pollen and the nectar and the vegetation in general for the species to hide nest and overwinter. And also some of these flowers are very specific hosts for butterflies and moths, where they require that specific plant for their lifecycle.

Dan Seguin  05:21

Now, this question is for both, do habitats vary depending on where they're located in the province and country? If so, what's unique about Eastern Ontario? Wondering, Meaghan, if you can expand on this? And then what about you, Tracy?

Meaghan McDonald  05:37

Yeah, sure. So obviously, our country is massive. So there's a big variety of habitats that mountains, prairies, plains, forests, wetlands, all sorts of things. I think what's kind of unique about Eastern Ontario, maybe in comparison to our southern counterpart there is that we do have still quite a lot of natural areas available to us. The development pressures out here are building just as they are in the southern region. But I think in Eastern Ontario, there's a really good opportunity to sort of preserve what we already have and protect the resources that we already have as that development occurs. So I think that's kind of a unique feature out here.

Tracy Etwell  06:18

So our focus on Eastern Ontario is based on two things. One is that the threatened monarch butterfly range in Canada is heavily focused in Ontario and Quebec. So obviously, we're overlapping that region. And secondly, our funder, which is the Ontario Trillium Foundation has sponsored our work in the Eastern Ontario region. There are also tons and tons of rights of way here which we define as roadways, transmission lines, and pipelines. And as Meaghan said, we do have habitat across Canada. And the management of this vegetation along rights of way is compatible with Meadow habitat, which benefits these pollinators. And we're hoping that rights of way meadow projects will catch on across Canada. And we're busy creating a national network of right of way managers to encourage meadow habitat restoration across the country.

Dan Seguin  07:03

Okay, Tracy, I know that there are many factors that are contributing to the decline in pollinators and their habitats. Based on your experience, what are those reasons? And is there one in particular, that's been identified as the most destructive force?

Tracy Etwell  07:21

Yeah, so you're correct. There are many forces that contribute to this. The biggest one is thought to be the loss of habitat, which is consistent with a lot of species. When land is developed, the habitat is lost. Also, these insects need large corridors of habitat to travel around. So when these pieces get disconnected, it's harder for these pollinators to find that habitat. Also, in Eastern Ontario, the invasive plant species wild parsnip, which means some people may be aware of is another threat. It's spread rapidly throughout the area and is out-competing or native wildflowers. It's hard to control in many places they spray and frequent mowing are the ways to control it. Then, so when it's then controlled, then those native species that would have been there are now removed. So we're hoping once wild parsnip can be under control, better meadow habitat restoration can support these populations.

Dan Seguin  08:16

Back to you. Meaghan, can you tell us about the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority and what types of stewardship projects you're involved with?

Meaghan McDonald  08:26

Or so in partnership with our foundation branch, the Rideau Valley Conservation Foundation, we offer a number of stewardship programs that are really aimed at largely private landowners, but also municipalities and public land owners as well. Our main one would really be our forestation and tree planting program. We plant about 200,000 trees just in the Rideau watershed alone, every year. We also have a shoreline naturalization program, which helps a lot of shoreline land owners create sort of a natural buffer along their waterways. We have a lot of lakes and rivers in our watershed that we're fortunate to have. So we like to help landowners protect what they have on their property. We also have a rural clean water grant program, which is aimed at helping farmers do clean water projects on their property. And then in addition to that, we also do some stream monitoring, wetland restoration, invasive species removal and garbage cleanups, especially in the city of Ottawa with our city's free launch program

Dan Seguin  09:33

With respect to pollinator meadows. Meaghan, what can you tell us about your organization's role? Do you bring your regional expertise about Eastern Ontario's environment and its native plants?

Meaghan McDonald  09:46

Yeah, so we don't have a huge focus on pollinators and our organization we've historically been a lot more focused on water quality protection projects, which is why it's so important for us to have partners like the Canadian Wildlife Federation to partner with on on projects like this. So we don't have a major role in the pollinator project realm. Where we do bring our regional expertise is more for tree planting, shoreline naturalization, so your trees and your shrubs and items like that through our stewardship programs. We also partner with our nursery suppliers, the Ferguson tree nursery, which is located down in Kemptville. And they've been working lately with us and a few other groups in the Ottawa Valley on expanding their product line away from just trees so that they also can be a source of native pollinator species as well in Eastern Ontario. Right now, it's really aimed at potted plants for landowners if they want to, you know, create a little habitat pollinator habitat in their own property. But they are looking at expanding that so that they can be a local source for native seed as well. It's very important that we kind of keep that local seed source in the area because when you're bringing in plants from different regions are sometimes not quite as adapted to our current climate conditions as, say, Southern Ontario or other parts of the country. So we're really the Canadian Wildlife Federation  is kind of the expert on this project that we're working with and we're very happy to have their their expertise onboard.

Dan Seguin  11:34

You both are playing integral parts in the 15 acre pollinator meadows that hydro ottawa was building in the south end of the city. I understand it's one of the largest in Eastern Ontario. Tracy, why are utilities a key player in Canadian Wildlife Federation's pollinator recovery efforts.

Tracy Etwell  11:58

So CWF is very excited to be partnering with hydro, Ottawa and RVCA on this initiative, which is one of the largest projects as you mentioned. Utilities are a key player in our pollinator restoration efforts, and they maintain over 660,000 kilometers of transmission lines 1000s of generation stations across Canada, which has huge potential for pollinator habitat restoration, also their linear design are relatively easy for pollinators to find. Since utilities need to control the weedy species over the long term along these facilities. It provides a great place for the wildflowers and grasses to grow. And it provides a great opportunity for you utilities to demonstrate Environmental Leadership and provide the habitat. That's a win win for the utilities and the pollinators.

Dan Seguin  12:43

And now for you, Meaghan, what kind of follow up work does Rideau Valley Conservation Authority do for a project like Hydro's 15 acre pollinator Meadow?

Meaghan McDonald  12:56

Yeah, so for this project, we're actually already going to be on site for a related tree planting project. So it's kind of why we are involved in the in the pollinator side, because it does take a little bit of work to establish native pollinator seed, many of the native seeds, for example, they might take one, two, maybe more years to germinate, and really a few years before they really establish and take over. So it's really important that we manage that area for invasive species so that they don't take over. Or that an opportunistic species like Tracy mentioned, poisoned parsnip, for example, or Manitoban Maple seedlings that they don't move in. So this will be done really through annual to semi annual mowing of the site. So we waited till the end till the right time to sort of do a mow so that we can remove some of the unwanted species, allowing the native ones to really come up. And we'll probably also do a little bit of Spot Removal of the undesirable plants as they come up as well. And we'll do some monitoring as well plots throughout the meadow that I'll let us sort of measure how well the native plants are really coming along and at what rates which will be great because it's will be a great learning experience for us. Since we don't personally have a lot of experience. It'll just kind of be a great way to see what works and what doesn't and what goes into a project like this so that hopefully we can be involved with more in the future.

Dan Seguin  14:28

The Rideau Valley Conservation Authority has also planted 2750 trees on four acres at this site. Meaghan, is the reforestation connected to the meadow, or is it a separate but complementary initiative?

Meaghan McDonald  14:47

Yeah, I think it's kind of bolted is on the same site. The trees were planted last spring, and they kind of form a little bit of a barrier around the outside area of the pollinator garden. department started the pollinator meadow. So it's, it does create a nice barrier between the meadow and the adjacent highway and adjacent farm field. So it's going to create a nice of a windbreak. It'll also help with some of the salt spray that's coming off the highway. And these trees were really planted as part as a compensation for the station that's being built there. And we found that having the combination of the trees as the compensation and also the opportunity for the pollinator habitat was just such a great opportunity at this particular site. Just because we don't really want to get trees planted too close to the station, especially with the tornado that came through a few years ago. So it's nice to have those trees at a distance but also have that nice low growing, easy to maintain pollinator Meadow in the areas directly surrounding it. So it's a it's a nice combination there.

Dan Seguin  16:01

Now understanding that without pollinators Canada's food supply is threatened. Tracy, how is the Canadian Wildlife Federation building resources and support for these projects.

Tracy Etwell  16:14

So the Canadian Wildlife Federation is committed to supporting pollinators for both our diverse biodiversity and our food supply. As you mentioned, many of the nutritious plants we eat such as fruits and vegetables rely on insect pollination, and 90% of the world's flowering plants rely on insect pollination. So it's critical that as a global society, we support these insect pollinators. Now our project is focused on a variety of support such as technical expertise in building these meadows, increasing the native seed supply in Ontario, and providing case studies of the costs and benefits of restoring Meadow habitat. We work with interested managers to develop their respective projects. And we've also only recently formed the Canadian branch of rights of way within the US rights of way habitat working group to enhance our network so that we have more access to resources, case studies and best practices.

Dan Seguin  16:28

I'm really looking forward to your thoughts on this next question, Tracy - road right of ways are a major push for Canadian Wildlife Federation's pollinator initiative. Why build them there?

Tracy Etwell  17:19

Yeah, so like transmission lines, road rights of way or another area of great potential for Habitat. If you think about the over 1 million kilometers of roads across Canada, that's a lot of space for pollinator habitat. There's also a lot of interest in reducing the mowing and the herbicide use that goes into maintaining roads. And by using native plants that can allow for that reduction in those two aspects. And it may even save municipalities maintenance costs by reducing these efforts. And also, it's a great opportunity to share the initiative with the public that are driving by and can see these beautiful displays.

Dan Seguin  17:56

Now for my last question - for both of you. How can landowners improve pollinator habitats on their properties? And what could citizens do to support this work? Or our pollinator friends in general? Meaghan, let's start with you and the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority.

Meaghan McDonald  18:17

So we always promote the use of native plants on properties for a number of reasons, they obviously have benefits to pollinators. But they also are often more low maintenance and typical ornamental plants. So we would encourage folks that that are gardening or are looking for something to plant on their property, then maybe consider some of our native plant species just because they do have that added benefit to the pollinators. And we're also of course, promote the use of native plants along natural areas like shorelines. In addition to sort of the, the, the wildflowers and the meadow species that we're using in this project, there's lots of native trees and shrubs as well that they can consider that are beneficial to pollinators. I was just gonna say and then supporting your local native nurseries, there's a few in the Ottawa Valley that people can consider. And sometimes it just takes a little bit more searching and then digging to find those native native plants for your garden, but they're out there. And if we all support our local native nurseries, then they'll be able to continue supplying those plants for us.

Dan Seguin  19:40

And now Tracy, what about from a Canadian Wildlife Federation perspective?

Tracy Etwell  19:45

Right, so we also support backyard gardens planting native plants. That's a great start. We offer many webinars and guides online to help people get into this mode of planting and some other things that people can do that they might not have considered it is leaving leaves on your lawn and garden in the fall. Many of these pollinators actually over winter. And they'll use that that habitat to protect themselves from the winter conditions. Lastly, if you can resist mowing those dandelions until more spring flowers bloom, that's one of the first floor resources that are available for pollinators. And the spring is actually one of the hardest seasons for them to get going, because there's very little for them to feed on and they're very hungry, obviously. So something else you can also do is overseed. With clover in your garden and clover is a great resource for pollinators. In terms of bigger things, you can contact your local councils and ask them to become a bee city, which is a specific designation, which means they support pollinators and you have projects that support that. And also contact your municipality and ask them if they can support Meadow habitat restoration projects in their area.

Dan Seguin  20:57

Okay, Tracy, and Meaghan, are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions? We'll start with Tracy and then we'll follow up with Meaghan.

Meaghan McDonald  21:06

Sure.

Dan Seguin  21:09

What is your favorite pollinator?

Tracy Etwell  21:13

My favorite pollinator is the Gypsy cuckoo Bumblebee, which is an endangered Bumblebee with a great name.

Meaghan McDonald  21:22

I was just gonna say our native bees, there's many species and they're all they're all important. So I don't have quite a specific answer, but native bees.

Dan Seguin  21:31

Now, what is your favorite flower?

Tracy Etwell  21:35

My favorite is the brown eyed Susan, which is a native plant, of course, a powerhouse for pollinators and very easy to grow.

Meaghan McDonald  21:44

I like wild bergamot. It's again, easy to grow. And it's got a really cool kind of purple flower on it.

Dan Seguin  21:52

Moving on, what is one thing you can't live without?

Tracy Etwell  21:57

Chocolate! Always chocolate!

Meaghan McDonald  22:01

And I would say coffee.

Dan Seguin  22:05

What habit or hobby have you picked up during shelter in place?

Tracy Etwell  22:11

For me, it's been sourdough baking - making my own.

Meaghan McDonald  22:17

I've been starting a lot of craft projects and not finishing them. And we also got to canoe last year and new cross country skis this winter.

Dan Seguin  22:26

Okay, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Tracy Etwell  22:31

For me it would be to fly to travel and see the world.

Meaghan McDonald  22:36

Also to fly.

Dan Seguin  22:37

That this is an interesting one. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, would you be telling her?

Tracy Etwell  22:46

I would tell her to enjoy life more and not to be so serious.

Meaghan McDonald  22:52

I would say same and also travel and spend time with friends and family as much as you can, while you can.

Dan Seguin  22:59

Okay, what excites you most about these pollinator projects?

Tracy Etwell  23:05

I get excited to see the new life emerge. So when new plants start to bloom when the insects start to come in and use that habitat that just fills me with joy.

Meaghan McDonald  23:16

And I'm excited about kind of learning something new because these projects are new for us and being able to bring some of that knowledge to our landowners and then also to some of our conservation areas as well.

Dan Seguin  23:28

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Tracy Etwell  23:35

For me, I would say it's the application of new technologies that are coming online that help us support the conservation projects, answering specific questions that we need help with.

Meaghan McDonald  23:45

And I really like working with landowners and sort of seeing them connect the dots on how what they do on their property really impacts nature and it's always fun to see.

Dan Seguin  23:56

Well, Tracy, Meaghan, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. I truly hope you had a lot of fun. And thank you so much for joining me today. Cheers.

Tracy Etwell  24:11

It's been great. Thank you, Dan.

Meaghan McDonald  24:12

Yeah, thank you. It has been.

Dan Seguin  24:17

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, ake sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.

Did you know that it wasn’t too long ago that coal represented 25% of Ontario’s energy supply mix? This toxic energy source caused a host of damaging environmental and public health problems. Thankfully, in 2014, Ontario was the first jurisdiction in North America to eliminate coal as a source of electricity production. Climate change and transportation policy analyst at David Suzuki Foundation, Gideon Forman joins us to chat about coal, how Ontario transitioned away from it, and what’s next for Canada on the road to cleaner energy.

Related Content & Links: 

• Gideon Forman 
  • Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gideon-forman-4b4613a2/
• David Suzuki Foundation
  • Twitter: @DavidSuzukiFDN
  • Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/david-suzuki-foundation/
  • Website: https://davidsuzuki.org/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Today I'd like to talk to you about smog warnings, acid rain, air pollution. In other words, the early 2000s in Ontario, coal fired power plants have been linked to a host of damaging environmental problems. But coal also causes a lot of public health issues with links to asthma, cancer, neurological problems, and other hearts and lung illnesses. Back in 2003, 25% of electricity in Ontario came from coal plants. Did you know coal emissions were a major source of air pollution that contributed to 53 smog days in Ontario alone in 2005. That same year, my great city of Ottawa had 25. For those that may not know, smog days would be declared in the province on days when the air wasn't as safe to breathe due to the amount of toxins in the air. In 2014, Ontario was the first jurisdiction in North America to completely eliminate coal as a source of electricity production. According to Air Quality Ontario, the province phase out of coal has been considered to have achieved the most significant results of any climate change initiative in North America to date. Now, today 94% of electricity generated in Ontario is emission free, and those smog advisories are all but a thing of the past. There's no doubt that Ontario has been a leader in fighting climate change and investing in cleaner energy sources. By 2030, Canada will phase out traditional coal fired electricity in the country altogether, striving to have 90% of electricity from non emitting sources, and simultaneously cutting carbon pollution from the electricity sector by 12.8 million tons. So here's today's big question: Although it wasn't that long ago that coal made up a quarter of Ontario's electricity supply, I feel the story of how it was achieved has been lost somehow. So how did Ontario break ahead of the pack in North America to decommission coal plants? And what does that mean for our future in the renewable energy space? joining me on today's show is Gideon Forman on climate change and transportation policy analyst from the David Suzuki foundation. Gideon has a Master's of art and philosophy from McGill University and a certificate in renewable energy from the University of Toronto. He has been awarded the Queen Elizabeth to Diamond Jubilee Medal and is a former executive director for the Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment. Hey, Gideon, thanks so much for joining us today. Perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself, your background, and what keeps you passionate about your work.

Gideon Forman  04:05

Thanks, Dan. Yes, I've worked in the environmental movement for I guess about 20 years now. Gosh, I guess that's right. But it's been a long time. I work with the David Suzuki Foundation, now. For the last five years I've worked with David Suzuki, which has been wonderful. But before that for 10 years, 11 years actually, I was with a group called Physicians for the Environment, a group of wonderful doctors across Canada using their credibility and their scientific smarts as doctors to push for stronger environmental legislation. And with the Physicians for the Environment Group. We worked on issues like pesticides trying to ban lawn and garden pesticides primarily to protect kids health. And we did a lot of work on the coal phase out in Ontario and ramping up renewable energy. So I have some familiarity with that I'm not a doctor myself, but I loved working with doctors and it was wonderful to see the the influence that doctors had on the environmental debate. For the last five years since june 2015 almost six years now i've been with the david suzuki foundation worked on a number of different things but my major work now is around transportation - trying primarily to give people alternatives to the car really that's what my work is in a nutshell: walking, cycling, public transit these sorts of things so they can leave the car at home and move around in a more sustainable way.

Dan Seguin  05:24

i have a question for you what is coal exactly can you give us some background around why it was used as an energy source and why it made up such a large portion of our provincial supply mix until recent decades

Gideon Forman 05:41

Coal, at its most basic is decayed plant matter ancient ancient decayed plant matter that's been under pressure and is formed into a mass of hard typically black or brown mass it's mostly carbon and it's been used until relatively recently because it's cheap and often quite accessible. Unfortunately it's still used in many parts of the world it was used in ontario to produce electricity till 2014 we'll have more chance to talk about that but the short answer is that it was cheap you could throw it into the furnace and burn it and it created a lot of heat and drove generators there were lots of terrible problems with it but it was accessible and cheap.

Dan Seguin  06:25

Gideon some of us folks remember the days when acid rain and smog or irregular occurrence were these weather advisories a primary consequence of our coal usage and if so, how? Also what other impacts was it having on the environment and the health impacts on residents of ontario?

Gideon Forman  06:51

Yeah so certainly the coal plants were a big factor in smog and acid rain. They weren't the only factor cars and trucks and other sources of fossil fuel combustion were also a problem but the coal plants were a big problem. The coal plants in Ontario contributed of course and coal plants from other parts of north america primarily the midwestern us they were big contributors to our acid rain and our smog so that's that was very much an issue. In terms of the impacts the biggest impact that we talked about now is the climate impact the coal plants at their height were the equivalent of millions of cars on our roads when we took the coal plants out it was like removing 6 million cars from ontario's roads so they were a very very significant source of greenhouse gases and they also produced other things that were toxic things like mercury for example and arsenic so they were also a significant source of human health problems they made asthma worse, what they call the particulate matter in smog some of that came from coal plants and particulate matter is a factor in lung cancer so a number of different ailments were connected to the coal plants

Dan Seguin  08:10

Now in a nutshell what was the case for eliminating coal fired electricity in ontario and who led it? Also was there backlash in 2003 when ontario announced it was closing the provinces for remaining coal fired plant if so what kind of backlash was there?

Gideon Forman  08:33

okay that's a number of questions so the case for closing the coal plants was that they were just a massive massive source of greenhouse gas emissions and other contributors to pollution things like nitrous oxides and sulfur oxide sulfur dioxide so they were contributing to climate change they were contributing to acid rain and they were contributing to human illness on a very big scale and the other reason that it made sense to close them was it was something doable. In ontario because they were publicly owned, there was an opportunity to do it in quite a a rapid and efficient manner you know in many places coal plants are privately owned - in the united states for example and so if they're privately owned it's very difficult to close them quickly there's all sorts of issues around compensation and government has to step in it can be very complicated legally but, in ontario, all the coal plants were owned by the government of ontario so the government of ontario could close them basically through the stroke of a pen and that's what happened it was over a number of years but that's what happened the Ontario government decided that, by 2014, they would no longer be coal used to produce electricity in the province and that's what happened so it was a matter of something that would have huge impact and that was doable that was kind of the thinking behind it. In terms of backlash, there wasn't a lot of backlash. There were some who raised concerns about the transition, loss of jobs for workers in the coal plants. There were some questions about electricity supply. But for the most part, I think there was a lot of public acceptance that we had to get off coal, this was something really good to do from an air quality point of view. And increasingly, from a climate change point of view. In terms of who drove the coal phase out, a lot of it was pushed by health professionals: the Ontario Medical Association, doctors, including some of the doctors that I worked with, in physicians for the environment, nurses, Ontario public health officials, medical officers of health, these sorts of people and family physicians, these sorts of people saw firsthand the effect of smog, of bad air on people's lives. And they talked openly about it. And so was very much driven, I think, by the health professionals. I remember one time, Dan, when I was working with the physicians for environment, we we arranged a meeting to meet with the Minister of Environment for the province of Ontario, and I brought in doctors, I brought in nurses, and we had an opportunity to talk across the table with the minister. And it was just fascinating for the minister to see firsthand the effect of coal on people's lives in a very direct way. I remember one of our doctors from Kingston, she said, you know, Minister, there are times when the weather when the air quality is so poor, that my patients can't go outside, and I really worry for them. And if you're close the coal plants, this would make a huge difference in the lives of my patients. And you could see the minister really connecting with that at a very human level. So it wasn't just an abstraction for our doctors. And so I think that was one of the driving forces behind the coal plant phase out.

Dan Seguin  11:54

I understand coal was reduced in stages between 2003 and 2014. To ensure system reliability, get in, do you know, what were some of the challenges? And where did they make up the shortfall in generation? Has it been renewable energy? Was it a smooth transition? What investments or strategies were put in place to make sure it succeeded?

Gideon Forman  12:24

Yes, I think the short answer is that it was a smooth transition. I mean, it was over 11 years. So it wasn't like someone, you know, flipped a switch. And it ended overnight, it was carefully done thoughtfully done over more than a decade. I think that the the ability of the province to move off coal was a fact was it was a function of a couple of things. So first of all, the doctors and the nurses, as I mentioned, I think prepared the public explained the case for going off coal. So I think you had a public that was very supportive of the phase out of coal. I think that was one factor. The other factor is that while coal represented 25% of the electricity grid, it wasn't so massive, an amount that it was impossible to do. I think it was, it was a stretch. But it was something that was technically possible to do. It wasn't like we were having it's not like our grid was 100% coal, and we were trying to get off for 100% coal. It was 25%, Dan. And that's a very significant amount, but it was also doable. So I think that's important to say. The the other pieces that they brought in the entire government brought in some of the other parts of our electricity grid, and ramp them up. So they refurbish the Bruce Nuclear plants so that a couple of those units came back. And that was helpful in in the transition. They put in some natural gas. And that's problematic. We can talk about that in a little while, but but they did ramp up natural gas, what they call peaker plants for the peak use of electricity. They did bring in a little bit more hydro power. And the biggest. And the biggest are in terms of in my view, the most exciting part of the transition was renewable energy. And so that was quite an effort in those years from 2003 to 2014. To ramp up renewable energy, particularly wind and solar power, wind and solar are still relatively small amounts of the of the grid. In 2014, it was about 7% came from wind and solar. But that was also one of the things that allowed us to get off coal. So it was a combination of those things, some more nuclear, some some renewables and some natural gas, and also more of an emphasis on conservation so that we reduce demand.

Dan Seguin  14:53

Let's move on to the next question. decommissioning coal plants and investing in renewable energy comes at a cost. What kind of impact did this have on Ontario's electricity rates? According to the most recent comparison stats, I have Ontario's electricity rates are the fourth lowest in the country. In your mind, were fears justified or just overblown?

Gideon Forman  15:20

Oh, yes, there was quite a bit of nonsense about how expensive and I put that in quotation marks, renewables are, first of all, then the cost of renewables has dropped dramatically. Between 2012 and 2016, in Ontario, the cost of solar, for example, went down by about 50%. And this is part of a worldwide trend. And it's not just for me, I mean, don't take our word for it. If you look at the OECD statistics, just in general, the cost of wind and solar have dropped very, very precipitously, very sharp drop in the cost of wind, and solar in particular. And it's not surprising, once you put wind and solar in once you put in the solar panels or build the windmills, the fuel, if you will, which is wind and sunlight are free. So it's not so surprising that you know, hello, renewables are not expensive. The other reason why we had such confidence in renewables in terms of cost, was it some of the strongest economies in the world, were embracing renewables. And I'm thinking, for example of Germany. Germany's gone into renewables, much of it wind and solar in a very big way, very powerful industrial economy. And yet, they've been able to make very significant advances in wind and solar to the point where a very significant amount of their whole grid is now renewable. So we never had any concerns about the cost. There's always some initial costs when you're moving to something new. But those would be more than compensated for by just the fact that renewables were so inexpensive to run. So we were never concerned about that. The other side of the equation is that as we got off coal, we were also saving money. Don't forget, there's a lot of costs, dollar costs, in acid rain in destroying lakes, destroying our natural world, there's a lot of costs in harming people's health, right? If you've got 1000s of people who have asthma that's gotten worse or other illnesses connected with bad air, that's a cost as well. And of course, climate change is the perhaps the ultimate cost. So by phasing out coal fired power, we were saving money. And by ramping up renewables, we were also saving money. So in terms of just dollars, yes, it made a lot of sense.

Dan Seguin  17:34

Now, with the removal of coal from Ontario supply mix, is gas next? what are some easy wins or long term solutions that will take Ontario's or Canada's energy transformation to the next level?

Gideon Forman  17:51

So one of the things, no question, that allowed us to get off coal was natural gas. And at the time, people saw natural gas as what we call kind of a transition fuel. You know, many in the environmental movement said it was a bridge, you know, we want to get to 100% renewables, we can't do that right away. So we need to move off coal, ramp up natural gas, at least in the short term. I think unfortunately, now that that was probably a mistake to think that natural gas was a bridge. Natural gas is a fossil fuel. And although in some ways it's better than coal, it's still very problematic. The production of natural gas, we have what are called fugitive emissions where methane leaks, when you extract the natural gas, that's a big problem. And then, of course, when you burn the natural gas, in a home or when you burn it into an electricity plant, you're producing greenhouse gases. So we have some real concerns about natural gas, and electricity production. Where we need to be over time is renewables. I think the good news is that there's a lot of solar resource in Ontario, there's a lot of wind in Ontario, we can probably get some more from a little bit more from hydro, and that has to be done properly. But we can probably get a little bit more from Ontario, on terms of hydro. But I think one of the biggest things that we can draw on Dan, to get to 100% renewables is getting water power from other provinces. One of the things that we've talked about is buying more hydro power, water power from Quebec, Quebec has a huge hydro resource, as you know, and a lot of it's sold to American customers. That's understandable. But we could also buy much more of it here in Ontario. And so we think that between a combination of more wind and solar and buying hydro from Quebec, combined with more conservation, we really need to drive down our demand. We think between those factors over time, we could have a 100% renewable grid. That's when we think we need to be

Dan Seguin  19:56

Gideon wondering if you could share with us what our The biggest challenges or obstacles we are facing now, in order to improve how we source energy in a post coal energy world, what is needed to overcome these?

Gideon Forman  20:15

I think we probably have to stop calling natural gas, natural gas, you know, the word natural gas makes it sound like it's all just delightful, right? It's like organic, organic fruits and vegetables, natural gas is a fossil fuel. And we have to remember that. And I think we have to put the climate crisis front and center. And one of the things that's getting in the way of that is this belief that, you know, that natural gas is, is reasonable, both for producing electricity and for heating our homes, we do overtime have to move away from those things. Those are big challenges. We also have concerns with nuclear. I mean, there's concerns about cost of nuclear, it's getting increasingly expensive. There's concerns about what we do with the nuclear waste. I mean, I don't know what community in Canada that particularly wants to house nuclear waste in its community. And I understand that, you know, we don't have a really long term, solid solution for nuclear waste anywhere on the planet that I'm aware of. So that's a very big concern. communities don't want that waste. And even if we're able to store it for, say, 500 years or 1000 years, some of that nuclear waste is radioactive for hundreds of 1000s of years. So that's a big problem. So I don't think nuclear is a long term solution as well, that's that's our view. But there are some that think that and so I think that that's another obstacle that we have to that we have to confront as well, those who think that nuclear is a climate solution, I my own view is that it's not a long term solution. The other piece that we have to remember around nuclear is that you have to mine for the uranium, the uranium that is used to fire the nuclear plant comes out of the earth, and you have to mined for it and the mining of uranium is itself very carbon intensive, you have to use very heavy machinery that burns diesel fuel to get it that uranium. And so the claims that are made about nuclear being, you know, completely clean and green, we believe are not accurate. So, but there is this belief that nuclear is emissions free. And so I think that's one of the obstacles as well.

Dan Seguin  22:25

Well, you've given us a picture of success and how we've managed to overcome these challenges of removing coal from our provincial supply mix. Ontario's electricity supply is expected to evolve over the next few decades as industry and consumers needs change. Gideon, what do you think the future holds? And what would you like to see?

Gideon Forman  22:52

Well, I think the future really doesforesee much more in the way of renewables. I mean, what's really exciting about renewable energy is twofold. In my view, first of all, we're seeing major economies I mentioned Germany, but it's also places like Britain, Scandinavia, China, these large economies are increasingly powering themselves with renewables, much of it wind and solar. I'm not saying that they're at 100% yet, but it is astounding just how much of it is now powered by renewable energy. So that suggests to me that it's really practical for a country like ours, which has a relatively small population, and a huge wind and solar resource to be able to power ourselves 100% renewable. I mean, I think for example, on the prairies, southern Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan. It's just a world class solar and wind resource. I mean, in Saskatchewan, for example, Regina is the is the sunniest capital in Canada. saskatoons motto is Saskatoon shines? Well, that's because there's an enormous amount of solar power on those Southern prairie regions. And so that suggests to me that if we wanted to, we really could power most, if not all of our electricity needs with renewables. So that's one thing that's very encouraging to me, and I'd like to see in the future, and the other piece is just the cost that I mentioned, but I think it really is important to to reiterate it is that the cost is so favorable with renewable energy, so it's practical, and it's something we can afford to do. Okay, Gideon,

Dan Seguin  24:25

are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions?

24:29

Okay.

Dan Seguin  24:30

What is your favorite word?

Gideon Forman  24:34

My favorite word is imagination and creativity. Sorry, two words creativity and imagination.

Dan Seguin  24:39

Now, what is the one thing you can't live without?

Gideon Forman  24:43

I don't think I could live without my kids.

Dan Seguin  24:45

What habit or hobby. Have you picked up during shelter in place?

Gideon Forman  24:51

I do a lot more bike riding now. Actually. Yeah, yeah, I used to be much more of a walker. But now I'm a big cyclist.

Dan Seguin  24:58

If you could have one superpower. Would it be

Gideon Forman  25:02

just to be more chill just to be a bit more calm? I'd love to have the superpower just to be able to call myself immediately.

Dan Seguin  25:10

If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell him?

Gideon Forman  25:16

Well, I think I'd probably say, Excuse me, I think I'd probably say to my 18 year old self experiment a bit more, you know, try a few more things that are a bit out of your comfort zone. Yeah, I think I was a bit too cautious as a teenager.

Dan Seguin  25:30

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Gideon Forman  25:36

Well, the thing I find most interesting and also most exciting is the youth climate movement. The the young people under Greta tunberg. And other young people, not just Greta, the sweetest young woman but the the the worldwide youth climate movement, young people saying we have to take action on climate change and getting out in the streets. I found that really impressive and really moving.

Dan Seguin  26:01

Well, Gideon, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcasts. Again, I want to thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Gideon Forman  26:12

Yeah, thank you so much. It was great chance to relive those days of the coal phase out. Thank you.

Dan Seguin  26:20

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The think energy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydro ottawa.com backslash podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.

Québec produces 32% of Canada’s total power generated from all sources, but is only responsible for 1% of the country’s GHG emissions linked to electric utilities. What lessons can we learn from Hydro Québec’s strategic approach to innovation, climate change, expansion and technology - and how they fit together to create one of the world’s leaders in a decarbonized future? To help guide us, we’ve invited the individual responsible for developing Hydro Quebec’s overall innovation vision, strategy and R&D efforts, David Murray, Chief Innovation Officer of Hydro‑Québec.

Related Content & Links:

• David Murray
  • Twitter: @DavidMurrayHQ
  • Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-murray-aa636666/
• Hydro Quebec
  • Twitter: @hydroquebec
  • Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hydro-quebec/
  • Website: https://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:42

Everyone welcome back to another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Today, we're going to talk about LaBelle province, Quebec, more specifically Hydro Quebec, one of the largest electric utilities in Canada, and how their innovation and clean energy practices are also helping to make the world a beautiful place. Hydro Quebec has 62 hydro power generating stations and 28 reservoirs, making it the largest hydroelectric power generator in the country. In 2019, the province generated almost 200 terawatt hours of electricity, with hydro power alone, and with 500,000 Lakes and 4500 rivers, Quebec has more hydroelectric potential, Quebec produces 32% of Canada's total power generated from all sources, but is only responsible for 1% of the country's GHG emissions link to electric utilities. What's more, Quebec residents have the lowest residential rates in North America. electricity prices are nearly twice as high in other provinces, and four times higher in places like New York and Boston. And Quebec is doing it all with 99% clean and renewable energy. What is Hydro Quebec's secret sauce? Some chalk it up to hydro Quebec's commitment to innovation, research and development. Hydro Quebec has two state of the art research centers known as  Institut de recherche d’Hydro-Québec (IREQ). That's driving breakthroughs in the field of energy, particularly the provinces electrification of transportation, energy storage, and energy efficiency. More than any electric utility, Hydro Quebec is setting its sights on growth opportunities within and beyond borders, including an agreement to supply Massachusetts with 9.45 terawatts of power per year starting in 2022. So here's today's big question. What lessons can we learn about Hydro Quebec strategic approach to innovation, climate change, expansion and technology and how they fit together to create one of the world's leaders in a decarbonized future. To help us navigate the hallways of this behemoth. We've invited the individual responsible for developing Hydro Quebec overall innovation vision, strategy, and overseeing the company's r&d efforts. He is no stranger to large corporations, as he held senior positions in companies like Bilbao, GE Flextronics, Nortel networks, and Rolls Royce. Dear listeners, please welcome David Murray, Chief Innovation Officer of Hydro Quebec and the executive vice president of generation. Welcome, David. Let's dive into Hydro Quebec transition towards a greener and more efficient power system. What have been the biggest drivers for change and innovation that has led the organization to where it's at today?

David Murray  04:21

Oh, that's a great question. So obviously, we are privileged at Hydro Quebec. I think the first thing that we need to say is that we're privileged because we carry on what has been done over 75 years ago. So some of our predecessors actually decided to go in green energy hydro power. And actually it was a debate at the time because nuclear nuclear electricity was was probably the alternative. And we're looking after to have these decisions who were lucky to have this already. But not because we have this is that we have you know to stay put and not do anything so innovation is key for different aspects not number one is actually specially today with the environment environment that needs it more than ever, so for us to push the boundaries and in greener Quebec, because yes, we are privileged, but there's still room for opportunities if we think about transportation, for example, second aspect is obviously, sometimes a bit sensitive of profitability. So we're privileged to have, you know, very, very low rates. And obviously, not only to export our electricity, but also for having more of the electrification and in Quebec province. So profitability would say, is the second aspect that we need to push, push the boundaries and in terms of innovation, and and i would say, the last aspect is actually the social aspect. So we have to be there in terms of keeping the rates as low as possible for the Quebecers. So for us, it brings us to a position where we need to innovate, we need to think differently. And actually, we need to push ourselves in defining the energetic Quebec of tomorrow, and this is what the team is doing. And obviously, we're privileged because we have our research institute, where we have about 500, you know, scientists working day in and day out on pushing the envelope. So we're we're actually probably in good position. And it is quite exciting to see what's going on right now at their research institute.

Dan Seguin  06:23

Let's move on to the next question. the profitability of Hydro Quebec's operations allow you to pay a significant dividend to your shareholder, the Quebec government. Can you outline for us how this benefits constituents and contributes to the Quebec economy?

David Murray  06:41

Yeah, so, roughly every year we do contribute you know, if I include taxes, if I include the rights on water, we contribute about 3.5-3.6 billion to the to the Quebec government. So which which is not, you know, quite quite important for for obviously, for the government specially in those times where, you know, our different governments are getting some inventions helping out into the pandemic situation. So, so this is this is what number two is what's important to understand also is that we do invest quite large amount of money into the Quebec province. So for example, we give roughly $3.4-3.5 billion of contracts into Quebec economy, year over year, so you're talking, you know, roughly seven plus billion dollars of return that we're, we're generating either tax or we're generating work into the Quebec province. So we are certainly an important aspect of the Quebec government.

Dan Seguin  07:43

David. Last year, the federal government released a report stating that hydrogen will play a key part in Canada's plan for net zero emissions by 2050. What role will green hydrogen play in Quebec and its future energy mix?

David Murray  08:02

So Hydrogen, you know, it's certainly something that's gonna, that is on the rise in terms of visibility, major investments going on through the world, if you think about Japan, you know, the Olympics are supposed to be, you know, based on hydrogen. Germany is also very, very focused in terms of investments and more and more now in North America. So obviously, it's going to be the same in Quebec. So and we already moved on a couple of projects of we've announced lately a projects in the petrol chemical area 88 or 90 megawatt electrolyzer that we've we've put in place, so you can, you can imagine the the size of the project, which is key, and there's another 20 megawatts, that we're also pushing in big on coal for another company. So we're roughly already involved with 100 megawatts and in terms of hydrogen. So for sure, that's going to be key. The other aspect of the Hydro Quebec is looking into and questioning itself is about transportation, so transportation for larger vehicles, I would say so smaller vehicles is going to be more most probably electric. Meanwhile, there's a lot of debate on this. But I mean, the momentum is there with the the the technology right now. So but hydrogen, I think is going to be a use for larger vehicles. And we're looking into this. We have different projects that they were looking into, but at the same time, we need to do it in the right time. Because you need the ecosystem to be there. So but at the same time, if you don't do it, either ecosystem is not going to be there. So it's kind of a vicious circle, but definitely and we believe that the hydrogen is going to play a role into reducing the GHG emission and our belief is that transportation is certainly going to be key into that aspect.

Dan Seguin  09:50

Now since 1970 hydro Quebec's Research Institute IREQ has been developing advanced technologies and applications tailored to the energy sector to help improve the performance of its power systems and better serve customers. How and why was IREQ founded? What is its purpose? And what are the pillars that drive its vision.

David Murray  10:19

So I'm on a research center, celebrated 50 years last year. So we've been, we've been existing since the 70s, early 70s, late 60s, so the idea actually was created the based on bringing large amounts of electricity from up north to the south, because typically, if you look at history, so you're gonna have your your dams are producing, you're producing center, close to, you know, where it's going to be used. But Quebec was built in a different way of the large amount of water is up north. So we had to, you know, be creative. And this is where Mr. Shambo with Research Center was put in place in order to find ways to bring the electricity from up north to south. And we needed large, large ways to transportation line. So this is where the 735 kV line created. So it really changed the way of doing business. You know, and instead of passing, like, multiple lines, you had one line that could do it, do it all, so that that was actually critical, and in the energy transition for Hydro Quebec. But now the research institute keeps pushing it. So we, we want to, again, we want to keep the boundaries, higher and push the limit in terms of electrification. And, you know, if you think that the system and the energy sector has been pretty stable, the way it's been doing business year over year, and now we are we're part of energy transition. So our IREQ, our research center is going to become key in in a couple of aspects. Number one, resilience over network. So obviously, with the climate changes, and everything that's happening, I mean, you have to, you know, think differently about how you're going to be building your network. Second is efficiency, obviously, we're privileged because we have one of the lowest rates, you know, in on the planet. But that doesn't mean that we have to take it for granted. So the team is working on on finding ways to do our lines better: different materials, for example, with bush lien, also into Hydro Quebec, in order to, you know, build some processes they'll be keeping rates as low as possible. Number three, is going to be the energy transition, I was talking about it earlier, this is crazy, you know, we're living something that's as big as the telco changes, I would say, with the energy transition, you know, just go back 5 years, you know, the world is completely different. And we're probably just at the beginning of it, where, you know, we're going to bring IoT devices and a new technology, new ways of producing decentralization behind the meter. So, I mean, there's so many things happening now. So there's so many variables. So it's important for researchers to think about this, and what's the best for the Quebecers with the best in the network to accommodate all these, these changes. And last but not least, is really working, you know, with data with software computing, in terms of focusing and giving an amazing customer experience. So customer services is key. So now we're going more and more about the experience, I would say, and we had lost that I would say, if I go back five years ago with Hydro Quebec now we've done a lot of progress. So there's still still some ways where we could we could improve, but our research center is working on software and in artificial intelligence in order to push the boundaries and bring us to the next level.

Dan Seguin  13:58

Okay, let's keep on going here with with technology and innovation. I'm fascinated about your robotics department, and in particular, how you're leveraging drones that have the capability to land on energized conductors. Can you tell us about your robotics program and how these drones you developed are helping you with some very dangerous jobs?

David Murray  14:26

Oh, you're touching a very important subject because I am a drone pilot. So I'm fascinated by drones. So I have my license. And I fly them once in a while. And a couple years ago, two - three years ago, I was at the Research Institute and I was walking by robotic department, the guys were playing with the drone, I could see them on the table. And I was like, Okay, I'm going there. I gotta go and see. And so I meet the team over there and telling them you know, bragging a little bit saying I'm a drone pilot, and everything says, Oh, that's cool. So, and I said, so Okay, so come here, come here and try that, you know, if you want to fly the drone, you know, I'm like, oh, okay, that could be interesting. And then I asked the price of the drone, and said, forget about it. So we're going to keep the experts doing what they do, and I'll stay on this side of the table. So drones, obviously, you know, these are new technologies, we have developed our robotic team different different tools. Now, I would say to help us out so we have line rangers for example, you know, as a spy that goes on the lines and can spec miles and miles of lines, which is great, because it's safer, we don't have to put people into this, you don't have to, you know, hijack these are employees and to make sure that the lines are okay, so these devices now can can make analysis on you know, online, and you can take, you know, recording pictures, whatever you want x rays, so this is crazy. Now, next step is really to bring your own drones. So, drones can can land on 735 kV lines, do inspections, and you can imagine the speed of doing things. So it goes back to what I was saying earlier. So you know, your health and safety is improved your efficiency and resilience of the network is there and you're doing it efficiently. So let's say that's helping us on reducing the rates and keeping rates low. So we're looking at different aspect now. So we're using it also on on dam inspection. So we're up north going so before use this trap the guy you know and go and inspect the the side of the dam and everything. So now you just buy the drone that takes you know, a fraction of the time, it's safer. And you get the you can do more at a certain level at the same time. So this is this is this is key. And the next thing that we're looking into is actually a fighter dome over stations, power stations and look at thermographic images to be able to detect if there are any weaknesses or pre defects so we can we can be more effective. So again, you can imagine, you know, the speed that you can do versus you know, having having people stop people working, you know, disconnect the power into this, and it's very inefficient. So now we got to use these technologies, so quite exciting. But I'm not going to fly these drones. I'm going to let the experts do it.

Dan Seguin  17:10

For many years, David hydro Quebec's pursuit to electrify transportation has revolutionized the electric vehicle sector in the province while supporting provincial decarbonisation. It's safe to say that the electrification of transportation is a major growth driver for Hydro Quebec. What are some of the examples of synergies you develop to help drive the mobility sector?

David Murray  17:39

Yeah, so I would say just, it's a major contributor on the growth, I would say, it's an important contributor, it's not that big for us. I mean, if you think about you know, having all the electricity, if you have 1 million vehicles,  if you have multiple vehicles for let's say, 4 million, it'll be like whatever 12 with our so when you think that, you know, we can we can produce over 200 years. So that's, that's important, but it's not huge in terms of in terms of volumes. But quite, we're still pushing it, and we're pushing it, because it's gonna help reducing the a GHG emissions so. So for us, it's key that we're, we stay a leader and in Canada and in the Americas in terms of EV. So we have partnership with our governments, obviously, that giving you know subventions in order for getting the cars. We actually, in terms of working out and making it easy for customers, we actually acquired a company called the Axso. So we've launched a new software in last June, and actually you just enter the spec of your cars, and we'll tell you where to go with it and what's the best route? Where are the stations? And we actually, it was interesting, because once one, when we launched that, on Apple, actually, Apple called us to say what's going on with this software. So because we hit like number seven on the day or something. So pretty happy about this. So this is this is going to be key. And the next step is working. Obviously, we're you know, partnering is working with the Quebec government. So we're looking at next steps now to increase the number of recharge stations that we have throughout Quebec. So 2500 fast charging stations that we've announced by 2030. And we want to add on top of that, so we want to make sure that people feel secure about, about taking electric cars and going wherever they want. So that's, that's quite exciting. And obviously, the environment needs it. So as fast as we can do it, the better it will be.

Dan Seguin  19:52

Let's move to renewables. It's clear that Hydro Quebec has become a world benchmark in the generation of clean, renewable energy. It also plays a key role in the development of battery technologies for electric vehicles, as well as electric power trains, Hydro Quebec saw EV's as an important source of revenue growth for its organization. And as early as 2012, you've been very active in deploying the country's first public charging network. Can you maybe talk to us about electric circuit? And what's next for it?

David Murray  20:32

Yeah, so electric circuit, like I was saying, we're going to push a higher number of recharge stations and and increase, increase the confidence. What we're doing also, in terms of the, all the electricity, electrification of Quebec, we're pushing the boundaries also, where we believe that there are some roadblocks and for example, if you think about electrification of larger vehicles, like school buses, for example. And one thing that we're looking into is trying to remove the roadblock of infrastructure investments. It's all nice, because all you know, sometimes you go in the news, and oh, someone bought so many buses, electric, which is great. It's great stuff. But behind it, I mean, there's all the infrastructure, and this is this is a roadblock because it's major, major investments that these companies have to do today. It's very simple school buses, they just put deisel in, and they just go. But now if you go electric, the game is changing. So the stations needing to understand, you know, when do they recharge, what's the cycle, what's the best timing of it, not, you know, overkill, all the capex that you need in order to make it make it work. And this is somewhere that we're working on something that we're working on. So we want to put Hydro Quebec in the middle of that, working with different partners. And to ease all the capex that's required for these, these school buses, throughout the the Quebec province. And this is going to be good also, for public transportation. So you know, it's same thing for them. I mean, it's major, now they have these big garages. So when you think you know, the number of school buses you have in Ottawa, for example. I mean, imagine when you have to convert all this to electricity, I mean, the guys upstairs, they're going to look at this as demand, that's going to take a lot of capex, right how we're going to do this and in buying you the bus, you have to you have to have all the investment that's going to be done behind itself. So that's key. And this is something that we want to tackle, and we're working now, and we're working with the Quebec government, but we want to be an enabler into this. And that's what we that's where we're focused on which is, which is quite interesting. And last point, I would say is, we can't forget that I took it back as develop electric motors. So we had the subdivision company called Tmfour, which is in boucherville, right here, near Montreal on South Shore. And we've developed amazing electric motors and we actually sold a portion of the company. So we still own like 45% of the company, but we made a partnership with Dana and in the US. And Dana is like, you know, a large company that's been there for over 100 years. So they selected our motor and now we're deploying these borders around around the globe. So that's, that's really something that's actually pretty cool. So to have Hydro Quebec, participating around the globe, and electrifying, the large, it's for larger vehicles, but it's actually quite interesting. And I had the I had the pleasure to try one of the vehicles actually. So on in Shawenigen, we have, we have this place where we built two houses, where we wanted to push the boundaries about the energy transition. And we had our scientists from Research Institute and the guys go crazy, have fun, and we have one whole house that's decoys that can you know, do the comparison with the house that's fully equipped and, and it was interesting to see all they've done. So we have solar panels on the roof, we have battery in the basement. We have you know, all the technology, then IoT, and thermostat lights and everything that came you can imagine. And  it's exciting to see. And in the living room, you have this major screen like TV screen, but you take a tablet just by opening up and then you have your whole network. And in the garage. You also have a device that can take your car electricity. So the we had the we have the Jeep Cherokee that we converted and we put our motor, a tm four engine in there. And I had the luxury to drive it around and park it in the garage and connect the car to the house. And then now the car was actually a provider for the house. So you can imagine now if there's an outage your car can become your battery. So it's quite interesting and then the scientists done you know all kinds of simulation as we were there with their CEO  at the time, and all the management team, and we showed what we what we had, which led today to our first microgrid. So when Lac Megantic in Quebec had a big tragedy and a lot of people that died when the oil train derailed and so we had meetings with the mayor, fine. And we decided to spin that and having Lac Megantic like a futuristic city. And now we have, we are connecting. As we speak, we are connecting all these devices and all these houses that we've done. So we had to ensure when again, and now we have a copy paste version that are being built in Lac Megantic, of which we're going to be using all this technology. So quite exciting to see how we're turning it in now this is going to help in terms of electrification of the grid, actually,

Dan Seguin  25:52

it's very interesting. Okay, now, hoping you can shed light here. With electrification comes more demand on capex electricity grid, particularly during peak periods. What is your outlook telling you about forecasted demand? And what kind of infrastructure will be required, if any, to support the electric future?

David Murray  26:16

Yeah, so obviously, we've been looking at the possibilities,  if we want to go and have Quebec at achieving the GHG emission, there's going to be a need for reducing for increasing the level of electricity consumption. So our distributor is looking into this on a yearly basis to see how that growth is coming. And we've seen that growth over the past couple of years. So definitely if we want to achieve all the possibilities, not only for Quebec, but also for the different provinces, as we are large exporter of our energy, so I think there's going to be a great opportunities for us. So we're looking at different aspects. But before we go, actually in saying, we're going to produce and add capacity, the number one priority is actually to find ways to reduce the consumption. So energy efficiency is key. And this is something that we're looking into. So we started, we launched a sub company that's called Hilo which is going behind the meter is actually erasing the demand on peak timings, so And actually it's rewards. So we're asking people to participate, and they have the options to participate or not, but actually, if they got the equipment, it's because they want to use it. And it gives us you know, opportunities when there's high demand an opportunity to reduce our consumption and not use for example, buy electricity from external means, or start fossil peakers in order to supply the demand because there are a couple of hours during peak times that we have, we have challenges so that it's only a few hours. And we've launched that. And it's been very, very successful, actually. So now we can erase. So you can imagine that it's all it's a winner because it prevents you to invest. So push investments. And obviously, if if you do invest, there's going to be an impact on your rates. So there's got to this thing gonna pay off. So good for good for the rates, because we're, we're pushing investments. Second is good for the environment, because we're not building lines through forests. And it's never popular. I mean, he prayed everybody wants electricity, but nobody wants it in their yard. So it's, it's always, you know, a catch 22 trying to explain that to people. So that's key number three is actually it's good for the customer base. Because imagine that the end the consumer is reducing his bill at the end. So you're gonna say, Well, yeah, of course, he's reducing his power. But there's ways that we're programming this where you can pre-heat your house couple of hours before the peak dining, and then it goes through the peak, and it helps up everything. And that peak is very expensive, like for all the reasons we were saying earlier, so this is win win win. And this is something that we want to push towards, in terms of investment. Going forward, obviously, we have we've built our first solar park, so we have two solar parks that we started, Wind is becoming also very competitive. So but wind and solar is for energy, not for power, then people don't always make the difference between the energy and power. So energy is the consumption you have every every second that you're going but the power is when everybody gets home at five o'clock and puts everything on that then put all the breakers on then the consuming everything spikes. So this we have the sustain not only the energy that goes with the power that goes in, and that's that's where HILO is gonna is going to be a key into making making the future and we have very interesting projects coming with HILO and so now we started With thermostat for example, we're but we're coming with, with other stuff that we've built in our house. And Sherwinagan, that's going to change the way of the building. And if we can change the way of consuming the electricity.

Dan Seguin  30:11

Let's move on to the next question. hydro Quebec's road towards reconciliation has involved economic inclusion of the First Nations, and the creation of opportunities for current and future generations. wondering if you could talk to us about the importance of that relationship. And the 200 megawatt wind farm to be built in Quebec, Cote Nord region.

David Murray  30:39

Yeah, so obviously, working together with the communities is key. And we've been doing so for for many, many years. So we've done many projects throughout the Quebec province. So this is not new we have, you know, over 40 programe, that we over the last decades that we've signed up with the, with the different communities. So this is not new for us, and is the same thing for the 200 megawatts on Cote Nord all up with project. So obviously, as we see, there's going to be a need for energy and power going forward. So these are very important projects that we we are pushing, pushing through and working with the communities on a day to day basis is certainly a key aspect to make it work. And we've done so on this projects. And you can see that the now we're we're we're ready to install the then the wind farm and to have the energy produced for us. So this is key for us.

Dan Seguin  31:40

As stated earlier, David, we are in the midst of an energy transition. It encompasses transformation in power generation, transmission and distribution, as well as energy consumption habits worldwide. How is Hydro Quebec planning to seize growth opportunities in the province and beyond Canada's borders, like the power agreement in Massachusetts? What is again, the ultimate goal and vision?

David Murray  32:10

So when we started the plan a couple years ago, we had surpluses, you know, in the, in all the dams that we had, and we had the Romaine, the four dams in the Romaine river that was being built, and which was 1500 megawatts, obviously, when when we started if you go back couple years ago, we were seeing a huge growth in Quebec. This is why we had to build Romaine and that growth income as as timely as as we're expecting. So it gave us an opportunity to use that electricity and to share it with with our neighbors, which was we've done year over year, we're exporting about roughly 30 kilowatt hour of electricity, which is quite significant. And this is something that we're doing to you know, New Brunswick, Ontario, obviously, all the different states around us and north northeast. So this is this is key. So for us, it's great opportunity, it brings back money, you know, in the Quebec province obviously, but it also helps the different states and provinces to reduce their GHG emissions. So for us, this is quite an important deal for us as it It reduces our surplus brings back money, so it's good for the balance, commercial balance and the Quebec province and contributes to helping the government in terms of profitability, and this is money that goes back into the Quebec province. So these are projects that are key and in in making the GHG emission and bringing good profitability for the Quebec province. So very, very important for us.

Dan Seguin  33:49

Moving on, what role does energy storage play in your deployment and supply of renewable energy?

David Murray  33:58

Yeah, energy storage is is also very exciting. So we're talking about the Innovation Development so we've been working on a battery for the past couple years, I would say a mega watt hour battery so large size battery I would say if you can have an image it's like a container size that goes on a truck or so and these batteries are going to become so important. Because again, when you place these batteries at the right place in network, reduce congestion and it pushes the same logic, it pushes some investments that you need to do second aspect it's sometimes you have reserves on mine and you can remove that reserve also with with the battery, so batteries will become an important tool I would say as much as a transformer, for example, our power line so become the base into the grid of the future or the design grid of the future and So we have our own battery, which is as it's a, its own recipe, which we believe is safer than any battery that can exist, where it's so safe in our mind that we will actually put it on the roof of Hydro Quebec, in early 2022 you know, with solar panels and capture electricity, and you're never going to see this, if you go on the field, and you see these batteries that are existing, they're huge with, like, 4 backup systems, and so many protections, and you know, it's very heavy and very costly. So for us, we believe that our technology is going to become more and more present, because of its particularity of being safe. So it will be key. And you can see now, you know, all the vendors going out on the market. I mean, there's a there are a lot now asking for storage applications of which we've launched this is why we've launched another sub company. So we have a few but it's called EVLO. And this is a, this is actually a sub company that we want to use for our own network. So we've already deployed some in the on the Quebec network. But we've also won our first contract outside now. So we were installing as we speak in France right now, I would interject as a partner, so this is going to become bigger and bigger for us.

Dan Seguin  36:29

Okay, I'm wondering if you could now expand on opportunities and or challenges the pandemic brought to the forefront for Hydro Quebec? Has there been an impact on export and growth or any other surprises?

David Murray  36:47

Yeah, obviously, we had, like, everybody, it was a tough year. And we, we've, we've faced some reductions of volume, because obviously, when companies, you know, are stopping their production and everything, there is an impact. So we've seen a slight reduction on the company side and industrial side, they would say, residential will ramp up, obviously, because everybody's working from home so it transferred, but it's not the same so, they had an impact on, you know, bad credit, like any company, so we've done, it's roughly $90 million of impact that we had. So you know, people are having a hard time to pay their bills and everything. So we were present to try to help on that aspect. So we had to look at payment terms, also, we help them, you know, helping out payment terms, and we will also reduce our payment terms on our side. So, you know, to bring cash faster to the other company. So with the cash to cash cycle is a bit longer, but it was good for everybody. So we've done it for the community and different companies, and the different people in the Quebec province. The opportunities? Well, we've looked at the you know, resilience and be more independent with with more and more important on the greenhouse production, I would say. So this is where when we launched an initiative to reduce the rates on on greenhouse production in Quebec province, so the which is great. So we give a big, big reduction for people to produce, you know, local vegetables and fruits, which was, which was actually key. This is an example of, you know, decision that we've looked at to help out. And the other aspect, I would say, is for different projects that we're having, so for example, we've announced a major revamp of our dams, for example, and we re-questioned the bids that we had, and we have some other major suppliers to say, give it to give us different options, and what would be the cost if they would do for example, engineering in Quebec, instead of instead of being done outside outside the country. And we've made some changes in some some of the plans that we have based on that, either it was, you know, some engineering was done in Quebec or in Canada, then it was it was a better deal for us at the time to stimulate and give more work and towards the Quebec and Canada. And in terms of selection. So this is like the stuff that we've done. And now it creates a, you know, different mindset internally. And obviously we have we still have the same tendency to look into the different projects as we speak.

Dan Seguin  39:30

In addition to seizing growth opportunities in Quebec and beyond, increasing exports and introducing energy efficiency initiatives like HILO, Hydro Quebec, residential rates are the lowest in North America. And business rates are always ranking among the most competitive on the continent. How have you successfully struck this balance?

David Murray  39:55

Well, the balance obviously we've looked, again, the base that was done In the last couple of years was asked to carry. So finding the ways to keep the rates as low as possible is, is something internally that we're making a large focus has been a lot of changes that happened in Hydro Quebec and the last couple of years. So sometimes, I mean, I always say that there's two major transition at Hydro Quebec that we live right now. The first one is the energy transition, the second one is within Hydro Quebec's wall. So all the synergy that has been done in the efficiency that has been done, bringing lean thinking in the way we're doing business. So, you know, we have over 2600 cells of lean right now a cell would be, you know, employing employees, with their, with their managers and up in the office. So, where we have stand up meetings, and we have six pillars, and we're looking at, you know, health and safety and productivity and employee in ward issues and raising issues to the next level, if it's not done and bring it back in the next day. So a lot of work that has been done, and we can't keep take that for granted. And, but it's been, it's been a huge transformation that happened. And this, this has made the significant changes and helping out in keeping our rates down. So year over year, you know, you're facing up salary increase, you're facing up, you know, material buy purchasing increase. So you have to balance this out. And this is our way to to do to do differently. And the second thing is innovation, obviously, still trying new ways, you know, where we were talking about drones and all these technologies, obviously, they're they're helping out in making that bounce. And for us, it's, it's very important that we keep these rates down, we're happy. We're proud, and we want to, we want to keep it this way. So it's good for people in Quebec, it's bringing opportunities for businesses to come and install themselves in Quebec for not only the rate but also because it's green. So we have more and more demand, for example, data centers, for example. So these are great opportunities for Quebec, and it creates at the same time, important, you know, very good job in technology. So this is something that we, we push and we want to keep going.

Dan Seguin  42:15

Okay. Finally, the rise in digital technologies has brought sweeping changes in how we all live. As we know, Millennials are now North America's largest cohort. They have now overtaken boomers as the largest population group in North America. These digital natives grew up with chatbots, smart speakers and smartphones. With that in mind, how has Hydro Quebec engaged with this generation? Where do you see the greatest opportunities for Hydro Quebec?

David Murray  42:50

Yeah, it's a major shift. And I live it at home to, so I have a millennials and I have a younger generation pushing. So she calls me that the boomer, I keep telling, I'm not a boomer, but I guess I'm acting like a boomer, I don't know. But I guess it is important to, to think differently, and to bring them on board, without forgetting the base without forgetting what the boomer,  our generation is done fast, I think, you know, it's an evolution. And there's nothing good or bad, it's always the mixture of things that makes it better. But obviously, we have to think differently, because it's a different, you know, technology is all over the place, whether the younger generation, so there's been a lot of changes in to our communication team. This team is quite amazing. Keeping connection, through media, web, you name it, Facebook, and all these new software that see that that's where my daughter's gonna say, I'm an old generation, because I named Facebook and Facebook is not for us, but it is what it is Snapchat and all this stuff. But so we've done a lot to keep the connections. Our social media team is actually amazing. So we've done quite an impression, sometimes answering some of the questions answering some of the tough questions were sometimes being criticized, but bringing a twist, which is attracting the younger generation and we're getting more and more popular and in some of these tweaks that's happening on the web. So we've had it also added two youtubers into our company. So two guys trying to explain to the younger generation, you know, how electricity works and I was saying about connecting the old and the future. It is important because nobody really understands how electricity is produced. They just put the switch on and you know, they believe it's happening from from the sky, I guess. So, you know, to make them remember that the how This was built in the past sort of pioneers has provided us that luxury that we have here in Quebec. So this is, this is actually very, very interesting to see and having these young guys through YouTube, explain to them, you know, how it works and how electricity is produced so to bring the connection between the the old world and the New World, I would say that. And the rest, like I was saying, bringing them together with the social, we have over 20 social media accounts that the team is working on, and trying to connect the new generation and we have them in-house as they're coming in house in DC, what's going on there, they're helping out the old, older generation like me to connect with the younger generation and obviously, pushes the boundaries. And it's great, because they're also pushing us into different direction, which is, which is key because at the end, you know, they want to come and work for a company that's innovative. And that's, you know, to the level of what they're expecting this we have to we have to adapt.

Dan Seguin  46:00

Okay, David, are you ready to close us off with some rapid fire questions?

David Murray  46:07

Anything - That's good.

Dan Seguin  46:09

What is your favorite word?

David Murray  46:12

efficiency.

Dan Seguin  46:13

What is your ideal electric vision for Hydro Quebec's future?

David Murray  46:20

Electric vision is also is everything that's energy transition. IoT,  behind the meters efficient energy efficiency, I would say,

Dan Seguin  46:30

what is the one thing you can't live without?

David Murray  46:34

My phone

Dan Seguin  46:35

What habit or hobby? Have you picked up during a shelter in place?

David Murray  46:41

You know, this is quite interesting. I guess the older generation. Two things. Number one is vinyl record. So I don't know for reasons I started to go back on vinyl. And so and once in a while a good old way of going too easy. Now, you know, it just click and it comes from the cloud. But just to get up and and put the vinyl and you know, after like five minutes, it's done. You got to stand up and go, but I guess it's my old age can kick in. So that's number one. And number two is actually, you know, tastes from the past. So my, my spouse was asking me what I wanted for Christmas. And I said I want a Atari 2600. And she said what? You mean? You mean the PlayStation five? Right? I said no, no, I want Atari 2600. She's where the hell do I buy this? Five? No, it just was just fine. And she did. So now just going back in time. And so I don't know. I guess pandemic has brought us back to our roots and to the some of the basics so I don't know, must make me feel comfortable to play pitfall I guess during Christmas, I'll have never played since but it's okay. I have it if I want to play it. And it's mine told everybody Don't touch it. Don't break it.

Dan Seguin  48:03

Now, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?

David Murray  48:10

Fly? I guess it goes faster. The typical, you know, I've asked that question. Everybody breaks, it breaks, it breaks the mold. And by saying I want to cure all illness. And then nobody else can speak after that. So that would be probably the political answer. But fly is my answer.

Dan Seguin  48:24

And David, if you could turn back time, and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him?

David Murray  48:32

Don't change anything. Just don't change anything.

Dan Seguin  48:38

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting about public life?

David Murray  48:46

Most Interesting? I'll be honest, like and public life is actually sometimes the difficulty of media I would say. So. You know, I took it back is like 13 times in the papers every day, and sometimes not the way for for for other reasons than good reasons. I would say not all the time. But it's a I would say that's probably the thing that's after five years in the industry when you coming from a private company. You're coming public, obviously, you know what, well, I didn't know what to expect. Everybody told me, but it is what it is. And it's, it's okay. I mean, it's part of it's part of the business.

Dan Seguin  49:26

Well, David, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcasts. Thank you so much for joining me today and I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers, my friend. Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The think energy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.

Passive homes - how do they compare to a so-called “regular” house? And what can homeowners expect with respect to their carbon footprint and future energy bills? To talk about these high performance homes and the steps it takes to shift to varying degrees of eco-conscious living, we've invited Casey Gray, the founder of an award winning sustainable building company, The Conscious Builder, and the host of the Conscious Builder podcast.

Related Content & Links: 

• Casey Grey
  • Twitter: @CaseyAGrey
  • Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseygrey/
• The Conscious Builder
  • Twitter: @BuildConscious
  • Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-conscious-builder/ 
  • Website: https://www.theconsciousbuilder.com/
  • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_conscious_builder 
• Resources
  • The Conscious Builder podcast: https://www.theconsciousbuilder.com/podcast 

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:43

Welcome back, everyone to our latest episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast, the rise in green construction is projected to reach $460 billion globally by 2022. It's a clear sign that more of us are embracing cleaner living and a desire to tackle climate change, and carbon emissions from the comfort of our home. Did you know that 111 million tons of greenhouse gas emissions are released into the atmosphere every year from Canadian homes and buildings. In fact, approximately 60% of Canada's energy usage is from heating and cooling our buildings. When it comes to home design and construction, passive homes and other low impact builds are changing the building landscape thanks to informed and environmentally conscious consumers. At a high level, a passive home works with its environment, reducing the need for additional energy for heating and cooling. Some factors include how a home is positioned or oriented on the parcel of land, how it makes use of sunlight as an energy source, its air tightness and overall indoor air quality. Net-zero and passive homes don't look any different from other recently built homes - even on the inside, most of what makes the home efficient is happening behind the walls, in the foundation or on the roof. Perhaps the surest way to tell a passive home from a regular home would be to look at its utility bill. Certified passive homes are 80-90% more energy efficient than a typical home built to code. And as demand rises, and costs fall, energy efficient homes are paying for themselves faster than ever before. That being said, awareness and incentives may be the keys to greater adoption. According to the Canadian Home Builders Association, there are only 456 certified netzero buildings in the country. And according to passive house Canada, there are currently only 67, certified residential, commercial and institutional buildings. So here is today's big question. What exactly goes into a passive home? And what can homeowners expect with respect to their carbon footprint and future energy bills? To talk about these high performance homes, we've invited Casey Gray, the founder of an award winning sustainable building company, The Conscious Builder, and the host of the Conscious Builder podcast. Okay, let's get started. Casey, thanks for joining us today. Perhaps you can tell us a bit about yourself, your background and what's led you to sustainable building?

Casey Gray  04:05

Yeah, I guess I have to go back a little bit. My background, I guess if you want to call it back to when I skipped born raised in Ottawa, so I've been in Ottawa my whole life, in the east end of Ottawa at the beginning and then moved to the west end and south and all over the place since I've been in construction, essentially, and married and very happily been with my wife going on 16 we're trying to figure this out the other day, like married seven years later, 16 years, I think at this point. We have a seven year old, who's doing great, so very happy with that. We're navigating the school system like everybody else who has kids. Luckily, we have one to deal with. So I'm sure with multiple kids, it's a lot more difficult. So I'm not complaining by any means, that's for sure. So that's all great. But the reason why I mentioned that is actually because my family is kind of what led me into the symbol building portion. So I've been in construction since after high school went and did my apprenticeship became a carpenter and started running jobs. My guy's 21 when I ran my first job, actually, I think I was younger than that. But in either case I went on my own in my early 20s, and kind of have been growing since then. But when I went on my own, I wasn't, I was just like every other, you know, 20 year old just wanted to go out, be my own boss and make more money. That's essentially what I was looking to do. Right. That's it. That's what everybody wants to do when they're when they're young. But it wasn't until that my wife and I - actually we did a Tony Robbins event that was kind of the kickoff. So we did this Tony Robbins event called 'unleash the power within'. And it kind of changed everything for us because it changed the way that we think. And if you change the way you think of changing your life, and we came back from that experience asking ourselves a lot of questions, and why, you know, why do we do this? Why do we eat that will, you know, what's the purpose of, you know, the business, what's our life purpose, all those types of things, right. And we're kind of on cloud nine for a while. But then, not too long after that, actually, at another Tony Robbins event, we found out that we were going to have our first child, which we didn't know is his son at the time, first and only. And that really sunk in for me, because then all of a sudden, for myself, I realized that if I was going to tell this little human being who's going to be looking up to me that he or she, who didn't know at the time could be whatever whoever they want to be, I have to lead by example. So that's when things really clicked for me. And I changed the direction of the business because I started asking, you know, why -What can we do in the construction industry? I like construction, I really enjoy it. I don't want to change that career. But how can we make sure that we leave this place better? right? How can I How can I do my part to make sure that the the earth is a better place when I leave it for my child and grandchildren, hopefully, to come years down the road, everybody else for that matter, but it didn't really sink in right till, till all of a sudden you have somebody else looking up to you that you know will be looking up to you. And in doing what you do not what you say.

Dan Seguin  06:54

you know, I really liked the name of your company. How did you land on the conscious builder? And how does your name and what you stand for influence you and your work?

Casey Gray  07:08

Yeah, so the word 'conscious' really started to stick with my wife and I because consciousness is really a state of awareness. And you can't, you really can't change anything until you're aware of it, you can't. Without that first step awareness is the number one thing. So that's something that really stuck. And we ended up doing a podcast called the conscious living podcast, which we did 70 some odd episodes with people all over the world, not in construction, but in other things in my life ended up running with that for a little while, which led into other things, obviously. But then we kind of started building these brands off of the word conscious. And that's where I started thinking about the construction part. And that's where the conscious builder came from. Because the way we see our role is really, as an educator, it's about making conscious decisions, but you need to be aware of what those implications are before you can make those decisions. And we see ourselves as being one of the most important people when people want to build a house or do a renovation, we are the ones who need to give them the information that they need in order to make a conscious decision. Does that mean that everything we do is 100% sustainable? Or, you know, have a net zero carbon effect on the world? No, because there's a lot of other factors at play as well. And everybody's different, right? We're not here to judge, we're here to just give the information. And it's up to the homeowners that we work with to make the final decision for whatever works for them and their families and their priorities.

Dan Seguin  08:35

Now, Casey, when you started out in this sector, what would you say were the disrupters in your field? What were the challenges you encountered in the beginning? And have you seen a societal or industry shift since?

Casey Gray  08:53

Well, I'm kind of like we, I always tell people, we kind of build for the 1% of the 1%. You know, building a custom home for people to begin with is not a cheap endeavor. It doesn't matter if you build it sustainably or not. But you have to have the finances to be able to build a custom home, but then you actually have to care about the environment to want to go a step further, or care about your health, whatever it may be, or be aware of it. Right? because not a lot of people care about that stuff. But they're not aware of what the decisions are making and how those things, how those decisions are affecting themselves and others around them. So I guess, you know, at first, we weren't a disrupter until we started to make the shift. And then we kind of just went all in and we jumped right into our Passive House. And I wouldn't say we were a disrupter, we weren't the first one doing it. But we were kind of setting the bar more for ourselves and for anybody else to prove that what is possible, right. Here's what's possible. Here's what we believe, this is why we're doing it. Once again, we're not forcing anybody to do it. It's not like we're building hundreds and hundreds of homes every year. You know, maybe we'll get to a point where we can build some spec homes that are more in line with our values. And create some interest with that. But that's not where we're at at this point. So we really just continue to see ourselves as that company that can educate people, but beyond even our clients, other businesses as well and other people in the industry,

Dan Seguin  10:14

okay, it's safe to say that green homes have come a long way, in the last decade, and building a green home is quickly shifting from an alternative way of building to more mainstream, there are a few building standards and certifications out there to choose from, perhaps you can start us off by helping us to understand the most popular types of green builds and certifications your company does, and how they differentiate.

Casey Gray  10:47

Yeah, so I guess at the end of the day, like we can build anything, we're certified to do all the certifications that I'll mention, there is I think I'd like to go back a little bit and I guess, give a little bit of understanding, because, you know, obviously the word green can be thrown around quite a bit, we like to use it ultimately, what we aim for is like a sustainable, a comfortable and an efficient home. A healthy home. And if you build like a healthy, comfortable home, by default, it will be efficient, it will be sustainable. And in Ontario, where we are the one that most people know about is ENERGY STAR. Now, what a lot of people don't know about energy star is that obviously the building code changes and ENERGY STAR has to change as well. So if you're living in an ENERGY STAR home that was built 10-15 years ago, it's actually worse than the building code now. So it is because it has to change. Same with R2000. R2000 changed about five, six years ago, I believe that is supposed to be 50% better than minimum building code. So there's minimum building code, which is pretty good now. Energy Star is 20% better, R2000 should be around 50%. Better. There's LEED certification, which isn't big in residential, it's more in commercial, but then there's different levels of LEED certification. So that usually ranges from 40 to 70-80% better depending on where you're going, but LEED really focuses on certain products and the carbon footprint not necessarily just on efficiency. And then you get into, there's also net-zero, which is CHBA's new standard, which I think is great. So it's technically about 30% better than minimum building code. But if you put solar panels on, you can offset all of your electricity bills, or all of your energy bills. One caveat I'll say is that technically there is a calculation that can offset your natural gas bill. However, you cannot produce natural gas. So I tell people, if you're going to put solar panels on, you might as well go fossil fuel free, because you will never put fossil fuels back into the ground. But that's maybe another conversation. And then but in theory, you end up being you know, and that's creating, or producing as much electricity as you use. And then there's the extreme, like Passive House, which has passive house International, and passive house US, which is about 80% better, you know, these are all kind of just random numbers. Not so random. But there, it depends on the design, obviously, right. But though 80% better than code, that in my opinion would be to go true. Like off grid, you kind of need to go passivhaus standard in our climate because you need to design for the worst day or week of the year. And even get into things like the Living Building Challenge, or you can't use like any plastics in your house and all sorts of craziness. But there's no shortage of things that you can go after. But a lot of those aren't mainstream, the mainstream ones are really energy star. And even R2000 has been around for years, a lot of people haven't heard of that. So I think ENERGY STAR and then net zero is picking up quite a bit of traction.

Dan Seguin  13:54

So I hear you have a passive home. Maybe you can tell us a bit about some of the features of your home that make it a certified passive home and its impact on your life.

Casey Gray  14:08

Yeah, so we do not own it anymore. We sold it a couple years ago. So we've built it, lived in it for four years, sold it. And it did have a pretty big impact obviously on our business too. As far as I'm aware, we're the only builder who has actually built sort of multiple certified passive homes within the area, because we've helped a couple architects do certified homes for themselves as well. Now speaking about the house that we built for ourselves - really what it comes down to when it comes to building a passive home. The big focus on passive is the energy consumption, the heating, cooling demand and the air tightness. So a big part of a comfortable healthy home is how airtight you can make it. Ideally you want to make it as airtight as you possibly can, and then control the ventilation through mechanical ventilation. A lot of people think that they need their home to breathe. Yes, you do need your home to breathe, but you want your home to breathe like your lungs breathe, right you want to breathe in and out through your lungs, you don't want to breathe through your skin. So you don't want to dig holes through your, through your walls. You want to seal those all up. And then you want to precondition the air that's coming into your house and filter it just like what your nose would do. So that's kind of the best analogy that I give. And also if you don't believe in air tightness, you know, on a day like today, which is nice and cold, you're in Ottawa, put on a jacket, go outside and unzip it and stand towards the wind, and you tell me if air tightness works or not. That's another analogy I like to use. We need air tightness, right, and you could have a really thin jacket that would be warm, if it's airtight, and a really thick jacket that's not airtight and be cold, right. So those are all things that are important. That's what passive house really focuses on there is high insulation levels, but it's a big focus on air tightness as well. So really the difference from a passive house, your regular house, or you know, code, let's call it code home, is there's more thought put into the envelope, which really comes down to the insulation, the air tightness, the windows and doors. And then by default, you also have to put some thought into your heating and cooling system because it drastically reduces everything, as well as your ventilation system, because it becomes extremely important. So everything else could be the same. From the outside, you never know if a house was passive, where you would not pick it up because you notice the walls are really thick, which you might not even notice from the outside, it depends on where they put the windows in the assembly. But other than that, you wouldn't notice it. But the real experience is when you live in it, when you live in a passive home, you realize how comfortable it is, you realize how quiet it is, you realize how fresh the air is in it all the time, we went to Florida for an extended period of time when we lived there. And when we came back, like the house is vacant, it's been vacant for a while. And it just felt like fresh wood and walked into the house, like leave a house vacant for for a couple months and come back to it and tell me how fresh It smells this house smell fresh, you have to experience it, you can't really like put it on a brochure and sell it to people, you just have to experience it. And those are the things that you get from a passive home. If you live in a passive home that's in the city, beside a busy street, you will experience how nice it is to live in a passive home because you won't hear anything outside. Those are the things that become really important and you realize it's kind of one of those things, you don't miss it until you've experienced it and then don't have it anymore.

Dan Seguin  17:33

I think the general understanding Casey is that by choosing to go with a green building standard, there are higher upfront costs. What are the typical upfront costs? And what is considered a reasonable payback period for those investments?

Casey Gray  17:50

That's difficult to answer, I wouldn't be able to give you any exact numbers. Part of the reason I can't is because we've never built the same house twice. So the only real way to figure out what a payback period is, is if you take one home, and you build it to a minimum building code, and then you take the same exact design and you modify it to hit this next building code, right and nobody's done that, to my knowledge, right? So a lot of people say it costs you 20% more to passive house or 10% or whatever it may be. But 10% more than what? What is that baseline? And I think what people don't realize because I've had this come up a lot in passive house is that you can build like I can build you a 2500 square foot home with vinyl siding carpet, like you know shingle roof meant you know not you know PVC windows, an IKEA kitchen like all these lower end features, or I can build you the same size home with with a copper roof and a stone exterior and reclaimed wood hardwood floors. You know $150,000 Custom kitchen, same square footage, completely different makeup, let's say on the outside, different baseline to start with. So to take the more expensive model and go to passive it's going to be a very small percent to take the other the cheaper option and go to passive it's going to be a much higher percent. Because where you end up spending money when it comes to building, whether it's passive or just a more energy efficient home, it's going to be around the envelope, you'll spend more on your insulation and air sealing. And you'll spend more on potentially your HVAC system if you go fossil fuel free, right but in theory, you can actually save money on your h HVAC system, because you will need a smaller system. But when we build homes, a lot of them are thought of and 10 years of business. We've only built two homes with natural gas all the rest of them fossil fuel free and just because the technology is more expensive, it just costs a little bit more. So the energy consumption or the cost to run those things would be the same. So I don't think it really comes down to you know what's the payback? Yes, you will save energy costs. If you're comparing apples to apples. I don't know how long it's going to take. But I think that I'm hoping, I'd say I believe that there will be value in the future, right? There's not a lot of value with any of these sorts of certifications on the marketplace right now, especially with the way the market is going now. But soon enough, just like gas mileage, I think it would be important for people to realize the importance of the ERS rating on their home and how that affects them and their comfort, and so forth.

Dan Seguin  20:34

From everything I've read, the Ottawa housing market is booming, despite the pandemic, what have you noticed most during this time?

Casey Gray  20:46

We've noticed that there's a lot of we have a lot of leads, like we have no shortage of people reaching out to us for work, but people can't find lots people are looking to build but they can't find a lot, right, there's no lot to build or there's they can't you know, they find a house, they lose the house to somebody else who wanted to pay more for it. So that's what we're seeing. Right. That's the toughest part. Obviously, we're seeing that there's an increase in price, right? Typically, when demand goes up, prices go up. So that's affecting material substrate, and so forth. So it makes it harder to estimate projects. Everything that we do is open book and cost plus we have our fees. So if things go up, we just need to communicate that to our clients. For the most part, they're aware of the situation that we're in, right, there's a lot of delays, people are just busy. And what we're trying to find guys we don't have it's of anybody's listening to this and want to join our team, definitely submit an application at the conscious builder. But we're looking for carpenters and helpers, because we can't keep up with the work that is coming our way, but also with the work that we already have. Because some of the delays now things are starting to pile up.

Dan Seguin  21:48

Now, Casey, I'm going to read your company's mission statement from your website, because I really like it. It says that your mission is: to make sure that everybody in the world has a healthy, comfortable and efficient home to live in. What do you think is needed to achieve that? Is it financial incentives? Is it government policy to support homeowners and the industry?

Casey Gray  22:15

Well, I think it's, I believe we all need to take responsibility for our own homes, right, we need to at least the ones, the ones of us who have that ability to do that, right, we need to lead by example. It's not to say like our mission statement doesn't mean that we're going to build homes for everybody, it means that we're going to do our best to provide the information for people to do that for themselves, or to hire somebody to do it or to ask the right questions to the builder, whoever they're working with, right? We're like, we're not gonna be able to build for everybody, there's only so many houses, so many projects that we can do in a year. But if we can help somebody else in another city or province, ask the right questions and find the right builder for somebody who's doing that, or we can help that builder become better and educate them. And that that's what it's going to take I think, you know, it's interesting when with regards to incentives, or you know, those obviously help, but I think that they are they help for the wrong reasons. Right. So the question is, how do we get people to want to care about this, right to to actually want to improve the health of their home, the comfort of their home, without being financially incentivized they want to do it because they know it's better for themselves and know it's better for their, for their kids? Or they know it's better for the environment, because you're using a lot less electricity. That's the tricky part. And I don't know if I have the answer to that, I'm just doing my part to say, we need to do this. Like it's obvious. You can look at things happening in the world, we have to act, I will say that there's no lag that's too little, like every little step helps, right? Even if you just can't improve the performance of your home, like we're, we're living in a home right now, there's natural gas in the home that we're living in right now. We didn't build it, it's it wasn't by our choice, but we do other things that we can that are within our power to offset our carbon footprint, for example, those are all those are all things that we can do, right, you stop using plastic bags and use, you know, cloth bags, or whatever it may be, is a really simple one right? To start using the compost more often, right? If you're turning down the thermostat a little bit or just doing things in the right order to write don't people like to jump into low hanging fruit? There is a proper or order of tackling your renovations in your home if you are going that route as well. So these are all things that you know, fall in, you know, a lot of information there. But I think ultimately we just need to take responsibility and lead by example. And that goes for governments too right? They have a lot of homes that they can upgrade that are funded that they actually make a much better financial case for someone like the government or any sort of Community Housing that holds multiple properties that pays the bills that need something that's going to last a long time. They can really make a financial case for building something like Passive House there, it makes a lot of sense. It's harder to do the one off projects.

Dan Seguin  25:25

Moment of truth. Casey, are there any myths you would like to dispel around buildings, or renovating green?

Casey Gray  25:35

Yeah, the myth I think I already alluded to was that your house needs to breathe. Right? A lot of people think that they need their house to breathe, and you don't want it to be too airtight. Like I said, you do want your walls to be as airtight as possible, but you want them to be permeable, meaning like you want vapor to be able to travel through them if need be, but not air. And that is I'll go back to the analogy I already said is that just like your body, you need to breathe as a human, you breathe through your lungs, you don't breathe through your skin, you sweat through your skin, right? So moisture needs to get out of your body, it will come through your skin. But if oxygen or air needs to come out here, it's going to go through your lungs and out your nose, your mouth, it's the same sort of thing. So think of your nose mouth as the ventilation system, your mechanical ventilation system for your home that preconditions right, so that's how you want to ventilate your home. A lot of people get these homes, they have this box hanging in the basement, it's called it's an HRV. I hope that people are starting to put ERV's in because those are actually what we need in our climate. People will argue with me on that. But people in the high performance building community understand this. But a lot of homeowners get it, they don't understand it because they weren't explained how, what it does or how it works. And they just unplug and they never run it, we need to run those like you want that fresh air system to be running 24 seven, and you want to seal up all the other holes. So make your house as airtight as possible, mechanically ventilate it. And that will help your indoor air quality.

Dan Seguin  27:07

Now, my friend, it's time to dust off your crystal ball. What are some of the emerging technologies and innovations that excite you about your industry?

Casey Gray  27:17

So in our industry, I think we're lagging a little bit like there's obviously a lot of technology when it comes to solar panels. And there's even some solar panels that are coming out that can generate electricity at night with the like condensation that forms on the back of them. I think that there's a lot of promise for 3D printing. That's where I believe that there's going to be a huge impact. I think building homes in a more controlled environment like in a factory makes a lot of sense. However, you are limited by the radius around that factory to do it. That's where I think 3d printing can come into play. If you could have technologies doing some amazing things. But if there's a machine that could show up on site and literally print a house, and then move over to the next step and print like they're doing it like in China, like there's a it's not printing everything, right, but they're printing the structure, right? They printed like 10 houses in a day. There's these tiny little cabins, it comes out like soft ice cream, it's like a cement mixture of some sort. There's also a company, I think it's the University of Southern California startup company. They're doing a lot of really cool testing, they've been doing it for 15 years at this point where they would have this machine show up and printed and really would be is designed for areas where there might be mass to start like an earthquake or hurricane or something comes through and just destroys all the buildings in the area. These machines could show up and print out the shacks really quickly where people would at least be protected from the elements. I think that's where the technology is going. It's going to be hopefully automating things now when it comes to renovations, it's going to be harder, like I think we're still going to need manpower for a long time. But there's even robots coming out there that can navigate rough terrain, right. There's a robot always navigating rough terrain and laying bricks. Right. So I think there's just so much I think construction is one of those industries that hasn't been disrupted yet, when it comes to technology. We are still slapping two by fours and two by sixes together in the same way we did it 150 years ago, at least where we live here in Ottawa, and there's a lot of room for improvement. So I don't know what's going to come first. But I think 3D printing is going to have a huge impact on our industry.

Dan Seguin  29:32

Well, Casey, for folks that want to make their existing homes more energy efficient and help contribute to a low carbon future. Where should they start? And what should they know if they want to pursue some of the standards or certifications you mentioned earlier in the podcast.

Casey Gray  29:53

But you should start by checking out the Conscious Builder. We got a lot of stuff on our YouTube channel. There's probably if you have any questions You can probably find it there. And if you can't send them our way, and we'll answer them for you. But ultimately, you need to, I always tell people, you got to build your team, you have to do what's called an integrated design process. So if you have an existing home that you want to improve the comfort, the performance and efficiency, whatever it is your purpose, there is a certain way that you need to do that you can't just tackle the low hanging fruit number one, you're going to need an energy advisor, you need your baseline, right, so the energy advisor needs to come in, they need to take a basically set a line of here's what how your house performs now. And then in that report, they will say if you upgrade your windows, if you upgrade your insulation, if you upgrade the insulation in your basement or attic, irritate nice, this is how much more it's going to improve the performance. There's all these things that it gives you. But you can't just go for example, and look at Oh, I'm going to save 20% if I upgrade my furnace, I might as well start with that what will happen is that if you do your furnace, first in your air conditioning, and then you upgrade your windows, and then you make your house more airtight. And then you add more insulation to your walls, you enter your attic, you now end up having a furnace that's oversized, and it's short cycles. So you want to first first focus on your envelopes, do everything you possibly can with your envelope first, that will reduce the heating and cooling demand. And then before you actually put your new heating and cooling system in, get the energy advisor back to test again, so that you can get a properly sized system. Most people's homes have systems that are too large. And that's one of the reasons they end up with cold rooms and hot rooms because they're balanced. But the issue is, is not running long enough to get the air to the far parts of the house, for example, or the air tightness wasn't done properly. So just you need a good team that can work well together, that's gonna be your energy advisor. It'll be your designer, and it'll be your contractor. They need to understand the importance of all these things. And then you need to make the hard decisions of what you're going to do first, because most people, I've yet to have a client who says, here's the work we want to do, and here's the money we have, and then they have leftover money. It's usually the work we want to do. And here's the money we have. And I say okay, well what's most important to you because we can't fit it all in hate. So let's fit as much as we possibly can in what the goal is.  

Dan Seguin  32:20

Are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions?

Casey Gray  32:25

Okay, that means I gotta keep my answer short, right?

Dan Seguin  32:29

What is your favorite word?

Casey Gray  32:32

My favorite word? I have to go with 'Conscious'. I've never been asked that question before, but the unconscious is a good one.

Dan Seguin  32:39

What is the one thing you can't live without?

Casey Gray  32:45

My family.

Dan Seguin  32:46

Okay, this one's interesting. What habit or hobby have you picked up Casey during shelter in place?

Casey Gray  32:54

I have gotten into cryptocurrency. So educating myself on that, and that technology and how that's changing the financial world, actually. So. Yeah, so I've been educating myself on that.

Dan Seguin  33:08

If you could have one, just one superpower, what would it be?

Casey Gray  33:13

That's a good one. I think I just want to fly just because that'd be fun.

Dan Seguin  33:16

Okay, Casey, if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him?

Casey Gray  33:23

I don't think I'd tell him anything. This is something I have thought about before. And the reason I say that is because if I were to tell him something, I wouldn't be where I am today. And I wouldn't have made the mistakes that I had to make growing up. So I think I would, I don't think I would say anything, I would just leave them and let them figure out stuff as he's supposed to.

Dan Seguin  33:40

And lastly, my friend, what do you currently find most interesting about your sector?

Casey Gray  33:47

What's most interesting is still what was interesting before is that there is room for growth. There is a lot of opportunity to improve homes, both new homes and renovations and there's never one at least in what we do there. No, there's never one the same. So every project is different, everyone has a new problem to solve new challenges that we need to accept and overcome. So I think that that's what keeps me going is I like that variety. And I like being able to take on those new challenges ultimately.

Dan Seguin  34:21

Casey, we've reached the end of another episode of the thick energy podcast. Thank you. Thank you very much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Casey Gray  34:32

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun. Those are some good rapid fire questions.

Dan Seguin  34:38

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.

What will it take for municipalities, businesses and homeowners to get on board with energy efficiency and why is this step so important? In part two of our discussion with Corey Diamond, Executive Director of Efficiency Canada, we zoom in to look at energy efficiency from a local level. We discuss the common barriers for implementing energy efficiency as well as what’s needed from city leaders and utilities to help the communities embrace it.

Related Content & Links: 

• Efficiency Canada
  • Twitter: @EfficiencyCAN
  • Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/efficiency-canada/
  • Website: https://www.efficiencycanada.org/
• Resources
  • 16 ways Canada’s enhanced climate plan advances energy efficiency
  • Our Human Energy

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey everyone, welcome back to this special episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. I'm thrilled you could join me for part two of our discussion about energy efficiency with Corey Diamond, the executive director of Efficiency Canada. In our last episode, part one, we talked about the importance of energy efficiency on a country's economy and its global impact on the environment. So on today's episode, we're going to bring energy efficiency down to brass tacks. We're going to sharpen our focus on the involvement and local impact for a community and for business and homeowners. So what does that look like? It's EV infrastructure, the construction of new buildings to be more energy efficient, it's retrofitting existing buildings, improving the efficiency of appliances, and electrical equipment - all of which put us on the right path to reducing our greenhouse gas emissions and helping us live within our environmental means. As an electric utility company, Hydro Ottawa recognizes that our industry and service model is in the midst of a significant transformation, taking on a more decentralized, customer centric, technologically advanced and climate focus form. With that will come increases in clean energy generation, more electrification of transportation, and building heating, energy storage, smart grid control, and greater user control. And at the core of all of this is energy efficiency. What's fascinating from my talk with Corey Diamond is how much power is actually in our own hands when it comes to using energy more wisely. These actions have a positive impact on the environment, on our finances, in the long run, and even on our property values and in job creation. But is energy efficiency accessible? Can everyone and anyone participate? Similar to the last episode? Here is today's big question: What are the benefits of energy efficiency? And why is it important to municipalities, businesses and homeowners to get on board? How can cost as a barrier be addressed? Once again, please welcome Corey Diamond. Corey, thank you so much for joining me today.

Corey Diamond  03:19

Great to be here again, Thanks, Dan.

Dan Seguin  03:20

I've read that in some cases, energy efficiency investments can be as profitable or even more profitable than renewable energy investments, because they provide a higher and faster return on investment. Is energy efficiency the first step that municipalities, industry, businesses and homeowners should consider to take control of their energy uses, and helping the environment?

Corey Diamond  03:47

Yeah, that's a really good question. In fact, you know, traditionally, in this sector, they, you know, they used to call energy efficiency, quote-unquote, the "first fuel", so it was kind of like, what's the first thing we should be doing and let's, let's look at getting rid of our energy waste first. And you do see a lot of that now, as kind of the first entry point. And, you know, but actually, what's happening in the sector is very interesting, because the cost of renewables is coming down so much, that you're starting to kind of see a melding, you know, it's essentially an erosion of the traditional barriers of, you know, traditional energy efficiency versus renewable or other carbon reduction strategies like, you know, smart homes or smart technology or shaving peak and things like that. So these kinds of barriers between what's storage versus efficiency versus renewables are really starting to kind of be removed, which is really interesting. It's also interesting because the people who are doing the work can do it all, right. And so you don't have to call an efficiency expert or like an HVAC technician, and then calling a renewal person, a lot of that's kind of changing and these businesses are figuring out how to provide kind of a one stop on all of it. Guess I would say the most important thing is, you know, from a building's perspective that, that you look at the building or your home as a system, and you start to think of it not just by individual measures based on what, you know, grants or incentives may be available, but you're actually looking at as a system and what makes sense as a system to do. And so, you know, it may not make sense to put in such a large mechanical system, if you've tackled things like, you know, the insulation, or the windows and things like that, you know, as far as how it fits in with other things, our friends at the atmospheric fund in Toronto, they did significant deep retrofits of large apartment buildings. And they found actually, the one thing that brought down the ROI so much that enabled the investment in some of the larger mechanical systems or the more kind of the deeper retrofits was water, was replacing toilets, and that they actually went in and save, because these old toilets were leaking so much, they save so much money on toilets, they were able to install, you know, the top of the line technology to heat the building in a low carbon way. So it's interesting, you know, they didn't go in it just trying to find money or try to kind of force in a solution, they kind of looked at it holistically. And because of that, they were able to find the savings to cover the costs and some of the larger ticket items.

Dan Seguin  06:22

Based on the research Efficiency Canada has done across the country. And in other parts of the world. What would you say are some of the grassroot initiatives or community initiatives that have helped advance energy efficiency and municipal climate action plans?

Corey Diamond  06:40

Well, I can tell you a little bit about our model, you know, we set out from the beginning, not only to kind of be a traditional kind of policy shop, and you know, making sure we're advancing the right solutions or analyzing the right policies. But we also want it to be a bit of a grassroots organization that spent time organizing and mobilizing the sector. And in part one I talked about, you know, the fact that there are over 436,000 people in Canada do this work. Well, up until very recently, most elected officials didn't know that and didn't know or couldn't identify constituents, someone in their constituency that was doing this work. So we do a lot of that kind of activity where we connect people to their local elected officials and coordinate meetings, we've done over 50 calls with MPs and local constituents. And it matters a lot. And it matters because, you know, I can spew off all the stats I want on this podcast, or in a meeting and things people don't remember that stuff. But they remember stories, and, you know,you're a podcast host, you get it. And, you know, they remember stories. And so we really try to coach people on how to tell their story. And you know, making sure that those stories stick and that's starting to work. And we're starting to kind of build out a broad based political constituency. When we started, we had zero people in our database, we have over 10,000 now, you know, that we can turn on and say, you know, what, we need you, we need you, if you want to see these types of policies, here's a very simple way for you to get in touch with your elected official and make that happen. But we're not the only ones doing that, you know, I have heard anecdotally that the the youth climate groups are doing amazing work and mobilizing at the local level, the town of Whitby, just just east of where I am in Toronto, you know, just passed a green development standard, and that the youth climate folks were right in there, you know, engaged in the process, pushing for this. And it's really great to see, you know, see the passion that is coming from, from younger folks who get this stuff and pushing our elected officials to make it happen. So that gives us some inspiration as well.

Dan Seguin  08:48

As I'm sure you're aware, the City of Ottawa has a plan to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. With an initiative called Energy Evolution, energy efficiency for both commercial and residential buildings is one of the key strategies to achieving this goal. Looking at our local context, how can we tackle energy efficiency in the fastest, most cost effective way?

Corey Diamond  09:13

So I looked up the plan and and you know, is minded to you know, what the impact is of the built environment in Ottawa, very similar to other cities, but 37% of greenhouse gas emissions reductions in Ottawa are going to come from buildings. So that's a heavy lift. So what do we need to do you know, if you look at the the strategic approach that the City of Ottawa is laid out, you know, it's in line with what a lot of the major municipalities across the country are doing certainly Vancouver, with its six bold moves in Toronto got transformed TO, Halifax has a great new climate plan. And they're looking at, you know, a number of things and Ottawa is no different. You got to think about electrifying personal and commercial vehicles, we got to retrofit all of our residential and commercial buildings. And then interestingly, for Ottawa was around turning organic waste into renewable natural gas, which is, again, technology that is available today. So these are some things that the City of Ottawa can immediately move on, and start to kind of advance through its own ways to compliment what the province and the federal government is doing. But specifically, what can the City of Ottawa do and we've looked at different models around the country that have different ways of doing things. And, you know, I often think of energy efficiency, it does suffer a little bit from not treating it, the way we treat other aspects of our life, you know, this kind of Amazon, Netflix, kind of Uber, UberEats kind of world we're in of convenience. It's hard to renovate your house, it's hard to find out what to do, it's hard to find out, you know, the right suppliers and the right priorities and things, what we need is a concierge to kind of help us do that. And there's some great, you know, examples of that, and cities around the world have, you know, basically somebody, through an app or through phone calls, just helping you figure all that out. So that's something great the City of Ottawa could do. The second thing it can do is provide financing, you know, a number of cities around the country are instituting what's called PACE financing, allowing people to essentially put the capital cost on their, onto their property bill, paying it back through their property taxes every year. So that's a really interesting thing that is enabled in Ontario and Ottawa could, I know is thinking about it, and could move fast on that. And then, like I said, about Whitby, you know, there are opportunities for the City of Ottawa to be more aggressive on codes and standards, new buildings around supporting, you know, renovations of buildings and things like that we need to move fast. And, and Ottawa wouldn't be the only mover on this, like I said, there's municipal leaders across this country who are taking this seriously and driving it alongside the people in Ottawa.

Dan Seguin  12:10

What are your thoughts on the fact that every decarbonisation strategy assigns a major role to energy efficiency, and also places an even greater emphasis on electrifying buildings and vehicles?

Corey Diamond  12:24

Well, while it's no surprise to me, yeah, I've been doing this 18 years. So you know, finally people are getting it. But you know, it's kind of one of those things where I think energy efficiency, and these kinds of things are starting to complement or essentially are becoming the engine, for lack of a better, you know, metaphor behind this great policy, ambition, you know, the world is moving towards a net zero emissions economy. This is going to be a part of us getting there and, you know, efficiency is estimated to contribute about 44 megatons of Canada's climate commitments that's gonna overwhelmingly come in cities and provinces and federal policies where you're gonna, you know, you can turn those levers. And the way I think about efficiency, too, is I may have mentioned this in the last episode, part one, but, you know, energy efficiency makes every other carbon reduction strategy easier and better. One example, just just just south of us in New York State, they have a renewable portfolio standard, where they're saying, you know, successive, you know, sets of years, we're going to continue to ratchet up the amount of renewables that are providing energy to to people in New York, well, it's much easier to do all of that if you're getting rid of the energy waste first. So you don't have to build as much infrastructure through panels and windmills and storage if you're using just less first. So there's a really nice tie in and a really strategic approach to be as aggressive as possible on efficiency to not only help out, you know, obviously customers, but to help out on this renewable portfolio standard, and they kind of work together. So we're seeing a lot more of that. And that's probably why you're seeing efficiency central to decarbonisation strategies is one of the safest bets out there.

Dan Seguin  14:25

Corey, your team at Efficiency Canada has done a lot of work to quantify the social, economic, and environmental benefits of energy efficiency. Can you talk about those benefits in a local context like Ottawa, for instance?

Corey Diamond  14:42

I can speak more stats, but I'm not going to because I like to tell stories and I want you know, we tell a lot of stories. And so, you know, if you think about it in the context of Ottawa,  we look at people like Andy Coburn - Andy works as the director Education and Training at the North American insulation Manufacturers Association. He's also president of the Home Builders Association and Lanark and Leeds and Andy's you know, Andy's is Andy, he's a Red Seal, General carpenter, he's a certified Passive House consultant. He comes from this great background of understanding kind of, you know, the built environment with a passion for like construction. And, you know, he was in commercial radio, he's done marketing and trades, and, you know, he's teaching and he's worked with a lot of nonprofits. So he's kind of a really interesting guy, and you meet someone like Andy, and he kind of, you know, you bask in his passion and kind of his glow for this type of work. And there's so many of those people around the country we call it our human energy. That's the title for our campaign around that. And, and he's a perfect example of that, and I bet you there's dozens more people like Andy in the Ottawa area that are doing this every day, you know, 8-10-12 hours a day driving this and then volunteering at night to try and push another agenda. And so that's the benefit, right? That's the local context. And it was just, you know, people like Andy Coburn,

Dan Seguin  16:13

Let's tackle human behavior, from EV adoption, to performing energy upgrades. to people using public transportation. Research has shown that 30% of potential energy savings is lost due to a variety of social, cultural and economic factors. How do we address these barriers, so everyone can participate and help our economy be more energy efficient?

Corey Diamond  16:42

Yeah, it's a really good question. So let's start with the people who have the means first, you know, I was reflecting with my daughter during the Superbowl, we were watching some of the commercials. And there is a real kind of juxtaposition between the types of ads that you're seeing from government related COVID versus let's say, you're seeing from you know, quest trade and quest trade is like kind of an online investment app. And the COVID ads, you know, are typical ads that we would see around, you know, essentially scaring us about the current situation is an extremely scary situation. But almost like using fear as a way to kind of try and get people to behave in a certain way. The Quest trade ads were all about what your friends are doing, and what your neighbors are doing, and what reviews you're reading online. And it was really interesting, the language they were using around not, you should go into this app and save money, but all my friends are doing it. And that is why you should do it too. And so people get information from their peers, they get information from their friends, they get information from social norms, these are the kinds of things that affect our behavior. And the more that we can tap into that element of our brain, the more that we can see, you know, these kinds of energy behaviors and upgrades and things happen because they become social norms. So that's interesting. And that's kind of what gets us to tipping points. So that's for  the part of the population that, middle upper middle class, and kind of, you know, who have had the meets. And that's I think, where you tap in, but a large part of the population, it's difficult to participate in climate mitigation, you know, people in this world, find it very difficult just to get by, and now you're asking them to carry a greater burden. And so there are lots of different ways to make that happen. There's some great examples across the country of organizations that are supporting those that have less means to participate in this transition. And they do it by you know, common sense - how do you tap into people's cultural and social norms?  How do you find ambassadors that can speak the language? How do you make sure that things are done in a turnkey way, for those that don't have the means to invest capital upfront? And this is why as I mentioned, in part one around, you know, we desperately need to ramp up investment in programming for low to moderate income Canadians who are spending a lot of their income on their energy bills, and how do we make that happen? So different kinds of strategies to work with local community organizations, and different,  service providers who may not be in our traditional energy sector, but have those kinds of relationships and the trust of the people in those communities. And that's how you do it. That's how you kind of tap into those communities and make that work and we're really kind of looking forward to ramping that up this year. As part of our advocacy work,

Dan Seguin  20:01

Hydro Ottawa has been providing customers access to conservation expertise while promoting designing and delivering energy efficiency programs since 2005. This focus on energy efficiency has enhanced customer value, while delivering important benefits to the electricity system. What do you think is the most important role local utilities can play moving forward in helping customers take full advantage of energy efficiency?

Corey Diamond  20:31

Yeah, it's a good question. And you know, utilities across the country have something going for them. And that's authority - you're coming from a place of authority. And so the information you provide is, is meaningful to people and, and it's stable, it's a stable institution in this country, and people get information, and they can definitely trust it. So I would spend as much time as possible, you know, maximizing that level of trust. You know, the other thing is, energy efficiencies come a long way, and how we communicate it. And it used to always just be that Oh, save energy, save money, and then kind of realized, you know, what, people waste money all the time people buy $5 coffees, you know, when they could make it at home, like, people buy sports cars that are 10 times the cost of what it takes to get around. And, you know, money isn't necessarily the motivator, saving money isn't the motivator we thought it was. But, you know, Hydro Ottawa should be, you may already be doing this, you know, talking about efficiency is a comfort issue, talking about it as a convenience issue, talking about it as something that builds communities - these are things that puts people to work in your local community. These are the reasons why people like efficiency. And yeah, let's save a bit of money as well. But it's typically not the primary kind of motivator and these other kinds of things can be exploited or tapped into. And so you can make sure that you're maximizing the programs that you have,

Dan Seguin  22:06

In what ways, has the energy efficiency sector been impacted by the pandemic - positive or negative?

Corey Diamond  22:15

That's a tough question. I mean, there's not a lot of data yet. On this, we've heard some anecdotes that, you know, on the one hand, programs in the commercial and industrial sector have been doing quite well. I mean, you've got empty buildings, you've got a workforce that's, that's moving, you've got, you know, maybe some money lying around that can be invested. So when there's shorter term paybacks, it makes sense. You know, I think small businesses - they've been hit, those types of programs have been hit, because small businesses have been in so many ways, they just cannot put, you know, an ounce of energy or any time towards thinking about this, in the US has been a lot worse. I think in the US, you saw a lot of job losses in this sector, the clean energy sector, and energy efficiency in particular was hit extremely hard. It's starting to bounce back. But they didn't have the same kinds of government support that we had for small businesses through the types of federal programs. So we didn't see as many of the types of layoffs and things that you saw south of the border, but that story's still being written. So I don't have a complete answer yet. But at some point, there'll be some reflection looking back and, and hopefully some lessons that we learn from that to kind of make sure that the sector remains a resilient part of Canada's economy.

Dan Seguin  23:37

Are you ready to close us off with some rapid fire questions?

Corey Diamond  23:42

All right, let's do it.

Dan Seguin  23:44

Okay, here we go. What is your favorite word?

Corey Diamond  23:48

Triskaidekaphobia - It's the fear of Friday the 13th.

Dan Seguin  23:52

What is the one thing you can't live without?

Corey Diamond  23:55

My record collection

Dan Seguin  23:57

Now, what habit or hobby have you picked up during shelter in place?

Corey Diamond  24:05

You know, I don't know if it's a habit or a hobby, but the best thing is, I have lunch every day with my family. And it's amazing. I never used to take lunch. I would eat my desk. And now I eat lunch with my family every day. And it's awesome.

Dan Seguin  24:20

If you could have one superpower, Corey, what would it be?

Corey Diamond  24:25

time travel.

Dan Seguin  24:27

Now, if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell him?

Corey Diamond  24:33

Calm down. I guess I'm telling myself that right now. It's still to this day.

Dan Seguin  24:41

Lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Corey Diamond  24:46

It's got to be the people. I mean, we're all humans on this planet. And you know, the people we interact with every day are the best and it's just a joy to work with the people. I work with. With that Efficiency Canada, our team is amazing. If anybody out there has had any interaction, you probably agree. And but just the external stakeholders, the people in the sector everywhere, just such good well meaning people trying to change the world and it's an honor to work with them.

Dan Seguin  25:19

Okay, well, Corey, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. I truly hope you had a lot of fun. And thank you for joining me today. Cheers.

Corey Diamond  25:31

I did. Yeah, it was really cool. I hope people enjoyed listening to it. And thank you. You're a great host!

Dan Seguin  25:38

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.

What is at the heart of energy efficiency and what are the benefits? Is less really more? And why is it so important that nations and governments implement policy to take action not only for their economies, but for the planet? To help us demystify this topic, Corey Diamond, Executive Director of Efficiency Canada, and the national voice for an energy efficient economy, joins us to share his insights. The short answer: energy efficiency really means so much more! Tune in to get the scoop.

Related Content & Links: 

- Efficiency CanadaTwitter: @EfficiencyCANLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/efficiency-canada/ Website: https://www.efficiencycanada.org/

- Resources 16 ways Canada’s enhanced climate plan advances energy efficiency Our Human Energy

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey, everyone, welcome to this very special episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast. Energy efficiency is a large sweeping topic that has different implications and meanings depending on if you are a nation, a federal, provincial or municipal government, an industry, a business owner, or simply a homeowner. On today's show, part one, in our discussion about energy efficiency, we're going to talk about what energy efficiency means on a global scale and on a nationwide scale here in Canada, because that's where the topic of energy efficiency has been elevated to. Back in 2015, the United Nations set out an ambitious 15 year plan to address some of the most pressing issues facing the world by developing 17 Sustainable Development Goals. One of these goals, 'affordable and clean energy' offers solid technical guidelines and solutions so that governments can achieve energy efficiency nationally, and work together to achieve it internationally. So what does that mean for Canada? Where does energy efficiency fit into eliminating energy waste, reducing greenhouse gases and the fight against climate change? We're going to find out. So here's today's big question: What are the benefits of energy efficiency? And why is it so important that nations and governments implement policy to take action not only for their economies, but for the planet? To help demystify this for us, Corey Diamond, Executive Director of Efficiency Canada, the National voice for the energy efficient economy, is here with me today. So Corey, you work with Efficiency Canada, whose advocacy work is focused on making our country a global leader in energy efficiency? Let's start by defining energy efficiency in general, and what are the important things your organization advocates for?

Corey Diamond  03:01

Well, thanks for that, Dan, appreciate the 'back to basics' question. Because, you know, oftentimes, in our world, we just dive right into the erudite world and use as many acronyms and things like that. So why don't we start, you know, at the foundation, and if you think about energy efficiency, I mean, the main thing you're thinking about or talking about is, is using less energy to achieve the same or even better outcomes. And, you know, we want we like to think of it as you know, we want things like, we want to be warm, and we want light, and we want mobility, and we want to be productive, and we want to watch Netflix, without, you know, a breeze coming across our ankles, we want all these things. And it doesn't really make any sense to kind of pay, you know, extra for it or to harness us with, you know, the economic or environmental costs of wasting energy. So if you think about energy efficiency, think of it in the terms of how do we make our lives more comfortable? How do we make them more healthier? How do we make buildings more durable? How do we make our economy more productive? Just by using less? And then you asked about what are the things that we advocate for really, you know, we kind of boil it down to three things. And we think of it as kind of like an end state. So if we woke up at a certain date, and out of hibernation, and we said, oh, wow, look at the world, it did all this amazing stuff. What we'd want to see is we'd want to see zero carbon buildings and facilities, we'd want to see a netzero productive economy in Canada. And we want to see meaningful careers, you know, purposeful, meaningful careers for people. So those are the three major kind of impact areas we're working towards. And we see energy efficiency in the policies and investments related to energy efficiencies as the way of us getting there.

Dan Seguin  04:51

In the intro for the show, I talk about the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. What are some of the evidence base Best practices that the UN recommends the government should follow in. Do you feel that these standards have started a long overdue global conversation?

Corey Diamond  05:11

I would say that as far as an overdue conversation, yes, certainly things have been amped up. But people have been talking about this for decades. And it has been fairly central to, you know, you know, humanity on earth in trying to tackle with emissions reductions since the Rio summit in 92. You know, we look at the International Energy Agency, or the IEA is kind of the most definitive kind of global organization that is, you know, working in this space. And they spend a lot of time particularly since COVID started, on really trying to kind of think about clean energy, energy efficiency, and how will help with with the world's economic recovery, the thing that they look at is they say, Okay, if we're going to reach this, like Paris commitment that the world's governments have come together on, how do we do that, and they looked at and said, Look, 40% of the global climate commitments are going to come from energy efficiency. So it's a significant amount. And I would suspect that many agencies in the UN are also trying to figure that out in the context of the Sustainable Development Goals. So that means looking at buildings, it means looking at transportation, it means looking at industry. And it really means taking that long overdue conversation and going a lot deeper than the way we've done it before. And I think we're starting to see a bit of a sea change. We're at a very pivotal moment in the world right now, where I wish somebody I mean, I'm sure someone has an online, but it'd be so interesting just to get a tracking list of the governments and the corporations who have committed to a netzero future, and then kind of work backwards from that and see, okay, how do we unleash this massive potential energy efficiency to help us get there?

Dan Seguin  06:55

Corey? Can you help me better understand how Canada can grow its economy while reducing emissions, and building resilience to adapt to a changing climate? Do you have examples of other countries, like Australia, that are proving why energy efficiency plays a big part in their economy?

Corey Diamond  07:18

So certainly, there's an economic benefit when you just eliminate waste, right? It's common sense. My daughter's in grade six and I'm sure she's been learning that since kindergarten, right? You know, why? Why are we wasting, you know, there's no benefits from that. And so when we think about energy efficiency, the first thing sort of economic benefit we can think of are the direct jobs. So when the retrofit economy, people coming in retrofitting buildings, or making industrial facilities more efficient, it's a lot of people to do that work, you get a lot of labor involved in order to make that happen, there's no other way to do it. So what ends up happening is that that work is almost overwhelmingly local, you've got local contractors, local suppliers, and these are people in every community across the country who can do that work. So with the right policies and investment and direction, then you start to unleash that kind of job creation, you know, type of thing. So then you look at, okay, not only the direct jobs, but let's look at what happens indirectly, you know, when we save, so naturally, when we save the money, then re circulates back into the economy to do other things, and more productive things, not just spending it on waste. I like to think of it as you know, there's a restaurant at the top of my street. And let's say they, they undertook a, you know, an energy audit, and then did a whole bunch of energy retrofits. So the first thing they did is they hired a whole bunch of people, those people, you know, got jobs and got work and got to do the work. And then this restaurant thought, huh, look at that, we've cut our energy bill by 50%. Why don't we reinvest that into building a brand new patio, and all of a sudden, they built a new patio where they can put more tables, they had to hire two more servers, and they're recycling all that savings back into the economy for productive things. So you get the job creation of the headset, you get the job creation throughout, and you start seeing people do that. You asked about, you know, kind of where else in the world is this happening? There was a study that came out by the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy, the AC Triple E. They do it every two years. The last one was done in 2018. And they actually rank they do a global ranking of all the countries in the world and who's doing the best. and Canada came in 10th and actually tied with the US. And you know, there's some really good insight in there as to which countries are doing great on certain types of things. Certainly in Europe, you're seeing a lot of activity, and you're not not just historically in Europe. Have you seen it? I think Italy was ranked number one with Germany, they've done a lot of work for many, many decades on this. But what you're starting to see now is the European Union really kind of baking in energy efficiency as part of their economic recovery. And they called the Green New Deal. And they're really trying to kind of relaunch the European economy in this way. And one of the things they did is, I love the marketing and the names they use and things like that. They called it the renovation wave. And there's, you know, there's 32 member states in the EU. And they basically, you know, have a plan to double energy efficiency and building retrofits over the next 10 years. And they're going to create hundreds of 1000s of jobs, and they're going to lower people's energy bills, and they're going to put people back to work. And, you know, they're just doing it and, you know, it comes with a strategy, and it comes with the mandates for the states, and most importantly, comes with money. So they're really kind of, you know, locking it down and saying this going to be a core part of our recovery. So we get a lot of inspiration from our friends and colleagues in Europe, who are, you know, pushing ahead in this way, and starting to see that kind of unlocked here as well,

Dan Seguin  11:07

Is energy efficiency making significant contributions to economic growth in job creation in Canada, into the productivity and competitiveness of Canadian industries?

Corey Diamond  11:19

You know, one of the things we lack, I think this goes for everything in the clean energy space is it's tough to get data, but we do have some data, and it's very encouraging. Our friends at Eco-Canada in Alberta, they came up with a study a couple years ago, and they counted it, they counted up the numbers of people who work in the Energy Efficiency sector, and it's over 436,000 people in Canada. And that's over 51,000, organizations, companies, businesses, things like that, you know, that's more than the telecommunications and the oil and gas sector combined. So there's a lot of people doing this work already. It's overwhelmingly small businesses, independence type, folks. And you're starting to see more of that, you know, some analysis we did we kind of looked at, okay, well, that's the current status, what if we actually enacted and implemented all of the policies that are on the federal government's books, and we saw that we would, we would generate 118,000 annual jobs a year just from doing the things that are in those policies. So again, it backs up that kind of theory we've been having around that local job creation and things. On the industrial side, it's harder to get a number, not a lot of this is tracked. But we do know that, anecdotally that we're starting to see, you know, industries using more energy management systems incorporating this, one of the challenges on the industrial side is, is you're competing for capital projects, or you're competing internally for like, you know, hey, we could like change this system out, that system out, we can do energy efficiency, we can do all these types of things. So you see a bit of a challenge there. But one last economic data point that we just found that actually, which is really encouraging is that not only are we, you know, employing a lot of people, and there's a lot of activity in Canada, but we're also exporting a lot. In fact, the second biggest clean tech export, Canada's clean tech export is energy efficient equipment services. So that's really cool to see too, because there's a huge opportunity of a world market going in this direction. I you know, I just mentioned Europe, is there an opportunity for Canadian companies to take their knowledge, their technologies, their know how, and export that and grow economies around the world as well?

Dan Seguin  13:48

I'm very interested in your thoughts as it relates to the updated federal climate plan, and how you think it will advance energy efficiency?

Corey Diamond  13:58

Well, I am really glad you asked that question. Because my colleague, Brendan Haley, our policy director, he actually wrote a blog called 16 ways the new climate plan advances energy efficiency. So I'm not gonna go through all 16 because then, you know, this will be a very long podcast, but I want to highlight a few things and really three things. So number one, the first thing we see is a major priority placed or an emphasis placed on energy efficiency in the climate plan. The first section, if you go to the plan, the first section is called cutting energy waste. So this is in line with, you know, what I was saying earlier around the value and the benefits that flow when we just get rid of waste first. So that was really cool from a theoretical standpoint, and from a priority standpoint that the federal government is seeing this as a big opportunity. The second thing we see is that there's money. Last year, the federal government announced $6.1 billion for Energy efficiency programs. These are things for home retrofits for financing for commercial energy efficiency upgrades, and for a brand new program around municipal buildings and in the community, so we're starting to see some, some major dollars. And if you put that into context, we look at how each province does every year and energy efficiency, and we kind of, you know, added it up last year, the provinces combined spend $1.2 billion on energy efficiency. So, you know, adding $6 billion into the system is a big step. So, we saw that in the climate plan. And the third thing is, we saw mentioned and sort of a doubling down on some supporting or enabling policies, specifically around building codes. And this is something that we're tracking very closely advocating for, and making sure that any new building that's being built today is built at the highest standard, using the least amount of energy. And so it was really good to see that, you know, obviously, money is good, and priorities are good and investments, great, but just, you know, sometimes it's a, it's a policy, you know, turn of the pen, that actually gets us to where we want to be. But, you know, as an advocate for energy efficiency, I would be remiss not to also outline what's missing. So give me a chance. One thing we're, you know, really, you know, pushing for is a program for low income Canadians. And, you know, this is all the more important because of the situation today, as many people find that they're spending an overwhelming amount of their income on energy. And there's a huge opportunity to support low to moderate income Canadians with a program. So we're really pushing hard for the federal government to do that. And this is especially important because the carbon price is, you know, intended to rise considerably between now and 2030. So, again, that will create more of a burden for those that are finding it already hard to pay for energy bills, we look at it as kind of an energy justice view. And, and we're really, you know, looking for that to be included as part of a beefed up plan by the federal government.

Dan Seguin  17:17

Canada faces the threat of a recession due to multiple shocks spurred by the pandemic, since it's a given that the government will need to lead the economic recovery with sustainable investments, many world leaders are calling for economic recovery plans that pave the way to a zero carbon economy. How can energy efficiency help Canada recover from COVID-19? And how can it lead this economic recovery?

Corey Diamond  17:49

Yeah, it's a really good question. In fact, you know, starting last March, when, you know, when the world turned upside down, we kind of, you know, we're a small shop, we're 8 people and we, you know, we got together, you know, online, and we're starting to figure out, Okay, what what can we do? And how do we essentially pivot or work towards ensuring that the economic recovery has energy efficiency baked into it? So we did some work on that and we also supported a group of economists and policymakers, you know, a nonpartisan group from across the country called the Task Force for Resilient Recovery. And we helped them shape the energy efficiency recommendations for Canada's economic recovery. But we looked, we basically looked at it first. Okay, so why would you invest in energy efficiency to help Canada recover, and we came up with five things. So I'll quickly just kind of outline those. So if you're listening at home, and you want to take notes, here we go. First is obviously I've already stated this creates jobs. So you know, there's a lot of people whose lives have been disrupted, there's a huge opportunity, there is so much energy waste in Canada, that we can put a lot of people back to work doing it. The second thing is it increases consumer spending in the local economy. So as I mentioned earlier, that example of, you know, the restaurant at the top of my street, what ends up happening is you start to boost local economies, when you do this, people spend, they hire local contractors, but then they have savings. And then they spend that again, and so it ends up circulating back into the local economy, which helps with economic recovery. The third thing is, you know, it's through government, investment or government policies, government procurement, what you end up creating is a, essentially a pipeline of projects. And, and that builds, you know, investor confidence, you know, with financial institutions and different stakeholders in the sector, that there's a place where we can put our money that's going to generate a return on investment. That's really exciting. Now when everything is, you know, up in the air and other upside down, you know, one of the things you can pretty much bank on is that if you make certain changes, let's say to a building, you're going to get your savings back over time. And, you know, there's very sophisticated models that help you plan that out. And, it always works. So that kind of investor confidence where people can kind of start to take their money and kind of place it somewhere is a really important thing, as you know, economies try to get out of recessions. The fourth thing is, is the link between energy efficiency and kind of managing ongoing concerns related to COVID-19. You know, you know, things related to ventilation, things related to how we are interacting with our indoor environments now is a huge part of, you know, the Future Part of Canada. And so baking in energy efficiency, and combining energy efficiency, design or renovation as part of a way to manage pandemic concerns is another reason why it's a core part of recovery. And then the last thing is, and, you know, there's some work being done by the insurance bureau of Canada and a lot of great people across the country around resilience. And I think this is something that energy efficiency and making buildings and, and, you know, our infrastructure more resilient, is, is going to be key, because no matter what we do now, as far as emissions, a lot of the emissions are historically locked in. And so how do you combine energy efficiency, to help our buildings manage and adapt to a changing environment? Another reason why it's such a core part of our recovery.

Dan Seguin  21:42

Okay, so let's move to the next question. What kind of funding for energy efficiency and retrofit projects are you hoping for with respect to Canada's economic recovery being a green recovery?

Corey Diamond  21:55

Yeah, so we kind of work backwards and thought, okay, so if we need to get to a certain point within five years, and what that looks like, is essentially a tripling of our activity now of energy efficiency activity. It's about a $27 billion investment, that's a lot of money. And, and that's over five years. But the interesting thing about it, you know, when we talk about this, we don't, we don't necessarily talk about energy efficiency is, you know, one time payment, and it's out the door. As I was saying earlier, from an economic standpoint, it really is an investment. This is about how you structure your economy and your society to eliminate the bad parts of it. And so to do that, you invest and you invest in the types of things that are going to generate jobs, you invest in the types of things that are going to circulate money in the local economy. So that's, that's 27 billion over five years, as I mentioned earlier, this is that that's a recommendation to the federal government only. We have seen $6 billion dollars announced in programs thus far. So we're on our way. But certainly there's a long way to go, especially if we're going to keep up with some of the plans that we're seeing around the world, including President Biden's plan, climate plan. And then as I mentioned earlier, the European new green New Deal, which is really kind of paving the way for significant investment in this.

Dan Seguin  23:22

Aside from the need for more financial support from our governments, what sort of policy changes must happen to bring our energy efficiency game to the next level?

Corey Diamond  23:34

Yeah, it's a good question. I kind of touched on the building code piece earlier, you know, that's definitely one of them. 60% of our new buildings, you know, that you build today are going to be around by 2050. And I was actually thinking about that number, I was doing a walk this morning, and I was looking around, I'm like, pretty much every building in my neighborhood is over 100 years old. So if you're, if you have an ambition, like, you know, governments, corporations around the world are pushing towards net zero by 2050. Why would you lock in carbon right now, with every new building, you know, especially when we have the technology, the know how, the services, the workforce to do that? Why are we doing that? And so we're pushing as hard as we can to make sure that all levels of government are looking at new building codes, and also, you know, what they call alterations to existing building codes. So thinking about what we do with all of the existing building stock to bring that up to a level that is Net Zero Energy Ready. So we need that immediately. We're, you know, spending a lot of time advocating to governments across Canada on that. The second thing we need is, is policies related to workforce development, you know, certainly COVID has kind of put Canada and all nations around the world into a bit of a pickle, right? We are we're kind of stuck here where we're trying to figure out where do we go from here and how does that The world change because of the situation we're in right now, that requires some real thinking and requires to match the kind of policy ambition you want to see in the climate side with significant investment or matching investment in developing the workforce, for that policy and vision, certainly the market will dictate certain things. And, you know, I think we're already seeing that in the energy efficiency sector, but policies have a huge impact on where this market goes. And particularly, we need to match that policy with ensuring that people understand that there are various different career pathways they could take in the sector, that it could be a safe landing space. And, you know, the energy efficiency sector, just like many sectors in the country needs to up its game and its inclusion of women and inclusion of a more diverse workforce. What a great opportunity we're in right now to do that. And, and it's, it's an exciting time. And I think that, you know, especially with young people who are looking at the way the world is going, they want purposeful work, they want meaningful work, they want to do stuff that helps you know themselves, but also helps the country and the climate. And I think we're gonna need some leadership in this country around that so that people are nudged in this direction, and given an opportunity to enter a workforce that is meaningful, that is purposeful, and that helps us, you know, ultimately get to the net zero emissions future we want to see.

Dan Seguin  26:36

Efficiency Canada has recently published its second annual provincial energy efficiency scorecard, which ranks Ontario fourth in the country overall, in 2020. What are the key focus areas or topics that contribute to those rankings? And can you maybe highlight one or two things that Ontario is doing very well with? And what the key areas of improvements are?

Corey Diamond  27:03

Yeah, So what we do is we look at a number of things, we look at how each province is doing on their programs, so energy efficiency programs that they're providing to, to people, we look at the enabling policies - so like I mentioned things like building codes - we look at how they're doing on buildings, we look at how they're doing on transportation, and then we also track industry. Ee do that across the country. And we look at every single province, we're starting to bring into territories, you're right, Ontario is now ranked fourth, it's a slip, they were third in the previous year. So you're starting to see some backwards movement in Ontario, largely due to some of the cancellations of programs when premier Ford came in, but they're doing some good things, we are doing some good things here, you know, we'd like to see, for example, do some innovative stuff, you know, non wire or non non pipe alternatives. Certainly the ISEO is moving ahead with an auction around energy efficiency, that's new Enbridge doing some geo targeting stuff. So there's some cool stuff going on as far as kind of taking efficiency out of the more traditional realm and kind of pushing the barriers a bit. So so we like to see that. But it can definitely improve, we can definitely improve things here. There's two areas that we called out in our scorecard around improvement. One is around natural gas savings. You know, Enbridge does a great job in delivering and implementing energy efficiency. But we noticed that in 2018, the Ontario government actually in their environment plan called for a significant increase in natural gas savings as part of its environment plan. And then when it came down to, you know, directing the Ontario energy board around that they basically said you don't need to, to listen to our environment plan. So that was that was a bit of a step backwards, I think, you know, at least from our perspective, because there's a massive opportunity to do more on natural gas savings by a bunch of experts who know what they're doing. And then the second thing around improvement is really around electric vehicles, because we track that too. And, you know, 1% of vehicle registrations in Ontario are EVs. And if you compare that across the country, BC is at seven 7%. Quebec almost at 6%. It's been in the news a lot lately, because Will Ferrell was in the commercial, but Norway's at 50%. So, you know, we can do this and it's largely driven by policy, right? That's how you do that. And so, you know, especially,now in Ontario, where there's been some great announcements around, you know, essentially making these cars here. I think it's time that we started to see a much more aggressive push to enable Ontarians to access these types of vehicles as well.

Dan Seguin  29:52

Okay, Cory, as we close out part one of our discussion on energy efficiency. What do you think is the most important thing utilities, governments, regulators, businesses and consumers can do to accelerate clean power and electrification? And what will be the biggest barrier to getting there?

Corey Diamond  30:14

That's the money question these days, right? I would probably have the same answers I would have for anything going on in 2021. That, you know, we need to treat this situation we're in as the emergency that it is. And I think, you know, all of us who have lived through the past, you know, 11 months have seen us, you know, respond to an emergency. And, you know, it's no secret that the chaos that the climate crisis is going to create, or is creating right now, for many, many people around the world is going to be something that we can't even imagine. And, you know, if you are a decision maker in a utility or business or regulator in a government, we need to start thinking of this as a significant emergency, which means we need to act much faster. And, and, and, and much deeper than we've ever worked before. And I think we can do that. Because the stuff we're talking about is not controversial. I mean, compared to a lot of other policies out there. Maximizing energy efficiency is not controversial. It's got broad, nonpartisan support, we've got states down and south of us, or countries in the US that are way beyond where we are today. So getting there is not not the hard part, and you know, it's safe. So I think we need to maximize this as fast as possible, because the cost of inaction is just far too high. You know, not just, you know, morally, but, but but financially and socially as well. So what's the barrier to that, you know, I, you know, I guess it's just inertia and, and, you know, a general lack of treating it as, as the emergency that is, and, you know, the savings levels that we're aspiring to, and, you know, the types of things we're calling for, you know, shouldn't have that much political inertia in it, and we're starting to see a big change, we're starting to see a shift to that, but nowhere near the level that we need to in order to move at the speed and the depth that that we need to so I think the way to do that overcome that barrier is really kind of what we're trying to do it efficiency Canada, which is really trying to organize this sector and, and come together as a, you know, a really intelligent and kind of future forward thinking sector to unlock that inertia, and organize ourselves to make it make it known that this is a real solution. I know we can do it. We just have to, we just have to do it. Yeah.

Dan Seguin  32:48

We've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Thank you so much, Cory, for joining me today. I would usually close off with some rapid fire questions, but I'll save those for when you join me next time on part two of our chat about energy efficiency. And we take a deeper dive into what energy efficiency means at the local level of municipalities, businesses, and homeowners. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Nuclear is a word with numerous applications that mean wildly different things: nuclear family, nuclear bomb, nuclear war. In this episode, we chat about nuclear energy with Matthew Mairinger - a technical engineer at Ontario Power Generation and the Canadian Operating Officer at The North American Young Generation in Nuclear - and debunk some of the most common myths associated with it. Is it safe? What impact does it have on the environment? Is radiation something to be concerned about? Tune in to hear why there’s nothing forced about Matthew’s positivity over the future of nuclear energy.

Related Content & Links: 

- Matthew Mairinger Twitter: @MattwithchipsLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-mairinger-p-eng-19524380/ 

- The North American Young Generation in Nuclear Twitter: @NA_YGNWebsite: https://naygn.org/

Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast. Nuclear is a word with numerous applications that mean wildly different things, nuclear family, nuclear bomb, nuclear war, and the Springfield nuclear power plant where someone like Homer Simpson seems to be the sole control room operator "d'oh". Nothing scary about that! When most people think of clean energy, they immediately conjure up images of solar panels, wind turbines, and hydro power. But how many of you also thought of nuclear reactors? The truth is nuclear power is often left out of the Clean Energy conversation despite it being the second largest source of low carbon electricity in the world. In fact, according to the American Nuclear Society, the third most popular myth about nuclear energy is that it's bad for the environment. But the reality is that nuclear reactors don't emit greenhouse gases. And over their lifetime, they have comparable emissions to wind and solar. Here in Canada, nuclear plants have been producing electricity since the early 1960s. And with 19 nuclear power reactors, mostly in Ontario, nuclear energy produces about 15% of the country's electricity. That's 13.5 gigawatts of electrical power capacity. Despite producing massive amounts of carbon free power, nuclear energy also produces more electricity on less land than any other clean air source. A typical 1000 megawatt nuclear facility will occupy approximately only one square mile for its operations. Recent estimates of the Canadian nuclear industry reveal that it employs approximately 30,000 people and creates another 30,000 indirect jobs through contracting. It also generates revenues of $6.6 billion and contributes $1.5 billion in federal and provincial taxes. So here's today's big question. What does the future of nuclear energy look like for the next generation? And how is Canada leading the way internationally with some exciting developments in nuclear technology? To help us better understand the role nuclear plays in Canada and the talented people behind the scenes, we have with us today, a nuclear engineer from the Ontario Power Generation, and the Canadian Operating Officer for the nonprofit organization, North American Young Generation in nuclear. I'm very pleased to have Matthew Mairinger on our show. Welcome, Matthew, could you maybe start by telling us a bit about yourself and what attracted you to the career in nuclear energy?

Matthew Mairinger  04:13

I guess I really got interested in nuclear in high school. It was just an essay that we got to do about any topic in science. I started looking into nuclear power. And I was just like, Wow, this is amazing the energy density, how it can fight climate change the medical isotopes we get from it so that really got me hooked. And from there, I went to University of Ontario Institute of Technology, where I studied nuclear engineering. I've been working full time at Ontario Power Generation at both the Darlington and Pickering nuclear stations ever since. And on the side I'm also a board of director with North American Young Generation Nuclear, Canadian Nuclear Association with the International Youth nuclear Congress. I'm also on the Energy Council of Canada as a young professional member. So lots of things, but it's all focused around energy and specifically nuclear,

Dan Seguin  05:09

Generally speaking, what important role does nuclear energy play in Canada? In your opinion? Why should Canada and other countries around the world continue investing in nuclear energy?

Matthew Mairinger  05:22

Yeah, so nuclear plays a huge role in Canada, and especially for Ontario. So nuclear technology, each year displaces 80 million tons of CO2 emissions, which is around 17 million cars. Also 70% of the world's supply of cobalt 60, which is used for cancer treatment, to sterilize medical equipment, to sterilize food and to do inspection of materials comes from Canada as well. So it's a huge portion of the world's cobalt 60. In terms of jobs and the economy, it contributes $17 billion to Canada's economy each year. And it has 76,000 direct and indirect jobs. So it's a lot of work behind the scenes. And it's a huge backbone of well paying stable jobs here in Canada. So why should other countries around the world continue investing? So really, it's to do with uranium and nuclear itself. So uranium 235, which is one of the isotopes that we use for nuclear fission, contains two to 3 million times the energy equivalent of oil or coal, so you're just getting so much more bang for your buck for that. And that means that it can use a much smaller land footprint, use less materials and produce less waste, it also has a huge capacity factor. So if you're looking at what's going to produce stable, dependable energy, it's really nuclear, which is over 90% capacity factor. So if we're looking to electrify the grid, we're looking to charge electric cars overnight. If we're looking to run hospitals reliably, you know, it's the nuclear facilities that have a 60 to 80 year lifespan, high dependability, high capacity factor. And if we look at the countries that have been able to decarbonize the fastest, so Sweden, France, United Arab Emirates, they've actually used nuclear to get there. So contrary to what people may think that nuclear takes a long time to build, to get going. It's really quick at decarbonizing countries.

Dan Seguin  07:30

Okay, Matthew, you're on the board of directors for the nonprofit organization, North American, young generation in nuclear. What is your organization's mandate? And what is it that you hope to provide the future nuclear enthusiasts and professionals like yourself?

Matthew Mairinger  07:50

Yes, so there's 50 young generation and nuclear organizations around the world. Typically, either countries or big organizations will have their own youth nonprofit group for NAYGN. It's all across North America. And really, we provide opportunities for young generation of nuclear enthusiasts to develop leadership and professional skills, create lifelong connections, engage and inform the public and inspire today's nuclear technology professionals to meet the challenges of the 21st century. So, so mouthful, really, we're trying to develop leaders to energize the future of nuclear. And we do that through professional development. So we put on facility tours, where members get to go see how the fuel is made, or what a research reactor looks like. We do work with Toastmasters. So to increase your public speaking abilities, we do community service, so we go out, we work with Habitat for Humanity, we work with other groups in the communities to give back as well. So we give them an avenue to give back to the community and also to put a positive spin on nuclear, but also young people as well. You know, there's this, this misconception that millennials are lazy, and we're this not the best type of group out there. So we're trying to fix that. We also do networking events. So again, just an avenue to get to know other people in the industry. So we'll do Blue Jays games, we'll go to sporting events. And we work on public information as well.

Dan Seguin  09:24

Maybe you can expand now on how your organization is working to be a source of science based information about applications of nuclear science and technology for use by the media, policymakers and the general public.

Matthew Mairinger  09:42

Yeah, so that's a huge backbone. So one of our board of directors is the public information officer. And so under that board seat, there's actually student education and government relations. So two separate committees that have a big focus for any NAYGN. So for student education, Each year we run a drawing contest. So we go to elementary schools, we have a different topic. So we'll talk to them about nuclear. And we'll get them engaged thinking about it. At high schools, we have an essay contest again. So just trying to make nuclear not a secret, not this unknown. You know, we're going to schools, we're talking about it. We actually developed our own children's books a couple years ago. So the first one is Marie's Electric adventure. And the second one, the sequel is George's energy adventure. So we bring that to schools, we do school readings. And really what we're trying to do is we're trying to talk about nuclear, in a friendly tone, we're trying to expose students at a younger age to think about it as a career to promote it as a stem opportunity as well. So just trying to debunk some of the myths out there, get them interested at an early age, for government relations, we do postcard push days. So we encourage our members to send postcards to Washington and Ottawa, we do rallies, we do stand up for nuclear, we participate in Clean Energy Ministerial United Nations Climate conferences, so really trying to advocate for nuclear from a nonprofit youth organization. So it's a little bit different than having company representatives there that we are in our free time, volunteers advocating for climate change.

Dan Seguin  11:27

Okay, Matthew, your organization recently signed a memorandum of understanding with electricity, Human Resources Canada. What can you tell us about the importance of this collaboration?

Matthew Mairinger  11:40

Yeah, being a youth nonprofit organization, we try to work with other organizations out there, we're not trying to create everything from scratch. So EHRC really has a huge network of not just nuclear groups, but clean energy groups, as well. So a lot of expertise out there that we could tap into. And really what it is, is they have a great focus for diversity. And they have a great focus for the young generation. So they've done specific surveys about young people across Canada in the electricity sector. So it made a lot of sense for us to share what we're doing with them. And then also for us to learn about what they're doing in the industry as well.

Dan Seguin  12:23

Now, your organization has also been an advocate and champion for diversity and inclusion within the nuclear sector. Can you maybe tell us about what it means to you and what it means to the nuclear industry.

Matthew Mairinger  12:41

So I think it was really, especially during COVID, and the events that happened around the world last year, that really brought diversity and inclusion to the forefront. And we saw a lot of the statements that were made across the electricity sector across other companies as well. And we want to make sure that when we said something as a board that we made it part of our long term strategic initiatives, it wasn't just a shallow statement that, you know, as soon as it went out of the public's attention span that it would go away. So every two years, we actually run our own career report, we send out survey questions to our members. And we found that the gender diversity was pretty close to the industry, but still lagging. So that's around 35% women, and the rest were men. So because of that, we also found that our diversity in terms of minorities and representation, were actually lagging in the industry. So this was kind of a shock to us. And we thought, as a nonprofit, we're doing really well on this. And really, we took a strong look at ourselves. And what we did was we had an external audit of our organization for diversity and inclusion. And really, they had a number of things that we could change. So, you know, we noticed that when we did our survey, we had a binary gender collection, so it was male or female. So we're going to change that going forward. We noticed when we had speakers, were we considering the diversity of the speakers. So that was another thing for us to self reflect on. We have a book club, where we choose diverse authors and diverse types of topics to discuss, our website -where the picture is being shown that it shows diverse and inclusive crowds, the video content, and this was really interesting. We didn't have captions on our videos. So we were actually, you know, a bias against muted viewing and hearing impaired. So again, just simple things like this, targeting our reach and amplifying NAYGN's diverse communities as well. So from that we started creating an unconscious bias webinar series. We had chapter recognition so we have awards now specifically to recognize diversity and inclusion at the chapter level, we're changing our nomination process or elections. And we actually signed on to existing types of initiatives. So that equal by 30, and then through EHRC's leadership accords, and we signed an MOU with women and nuclear and National Society of Black Engineers we're working on as well.

Dan Seguin  15:22

Now, Matthew, are you seeing a shift in what nuclear professionals care about? What are some of today's challenges for nuclear technology professionals?

Matthew Mairinger  15:34

Yeah, so I'd say young nuclear professionals today, they care more about that work-life balance, and especially now with COVID, we've seen that you know, the work from home, and having more flexible hours, that's a big thing. If you're taking care of a family, you want that flexibility. And we also see that a lot of the young nuclear professionals really care about the impact to the community. So what is that company doing to give back to the community? Are they involved in community outreach events? Are they involved in supporting local types of initiatives? So really, that's what we're starting to see more of a focus for the young professionals is, you know, they really want the company to reflect their values they want to have that are part of their core mandates. And some of the challenges right now, I'd say are the energy uncertainty right now. So, you know, nuclear does require an investment from the government. So if Pickering nuclear is shutting down, that is the uncertain future is what is the long term Energy Outlook going to look like? Will there be a job for them? Is it worth studying in school? Because it takes a long time to license to do the environmental assessment. So that's kind of always on the top of people's minds. What does the government think of nuclear energy?

Dan Seguin  16:56

So I hear that you work at the Darlington Nuclear Generating Station in Ontario. Maybe now you can help me better understand why nuclear power plants, particularly Canada's, are considered among the safest and most secure facilities in the world. And can you talk to us a bit about plans for the refurbishment of existing plants and why it's so important?

Matthew Mairinger  17:26

Yeah, so I think it's, it's almost like an aircraft. When people get on an airplane, you know, they may hear of an accident and they think it's unsafe. But the most unsafe thing you do for air travel is driving to the airport. It's a human's ability to risk perceive. So Nuclear Generating stations are actually among the safest in the world. And we take that down to the lowest level. So when you go to the OPG sites, hold the handrails, there's a defensive driving type of computer based training that we take. And also after the Chernobyl accident, the World Association of Nuclear Operators was created. So they do external audits for safety all across the world. There's also insurance inspections. There's the United Nations inspections. So there's all these different groups doing independent reviews for safety. But safety is the number one priority. And we definitely see that reflected in the company culture. In terms of refurbishment. So Ontario began refurbishing 10 of its 18 power reactors in 2016. And refurbishment is expected to create over 30,000 jobs for the duration of the project. So just a huge amount of jobs being created. And if we look at the cost of nuclear, it averaged around 6.9 cents per kilowatt hour, which was 30%, below the provincial average. And after the refurbishment, we're looking at the cost of nuclear in 2015 speed eight cents a kilowatt hour. So Still, the second cheapest after hydro. So that's why it's so important. It has such a big contribution to getting to net zero to reducing emissions for providing well paying jobs and fighting the climate change that we need to have as a focus.

Dan Seguin  19:18

Matthew, all nuclear power reactors in Canada are candu reactors, correct? Okay. First, what does CANDU stand for? Second, I was made aware that several other countries use our technology. At a high level, what sets Canada's reactors apart?

Matthew Mairinger  19:40

Yeah, so we have 19 reactors here in Canada, 18 of them in Ontario, and all of them are the CANDU type reactors, so CANDU is actually an acronym for Canadian, deuterium, uranium. So that's what it actually stands for. What that means is, that's really how it So Canadian self explanatory, deuterium is heavy water. So instead of using light water, which is the normal water that everyone's used to, heavy water actually has an extra neutron in it, which is really good for slowing down neutrons to make a really efficient reactor. And really, that's what set ours apart from other types of reactors. So around the world, there's gas cooled reactors, there's light water graphite reactors, there's fast breeders, pressurized heavy water reactors, pressurized water reactors, boiling water reactors, so lots of different types of technologies that they use. Fundamentally, there are three big ones, pressurized water reactors, they pressurize the one side of the system, so that the water never boils, boiling water reactor, it just has one open system. So as soon as the water is heated up from passing over the reactor, it boils, it's all open to the same type of system. And the candu type of reactors, they're really different, because instead of enriching the fuel, we use natural uranium. But what we do is we use that heavy water as the moderator. So we actually spend some money upfront and change the water to this different type of properties, which is good at slowing down the neutrons, so then we don't have to enrich the fuel. So what this means is, we don't need enriched fuel. And then when we're done with our fuel, it's a much lower enrichment. So when we're having that spent fuel put away, it's a much lower radioactivity than if we had enriched that. So it's, it's really hard to say which one is better. They all have their pros and their cons. The good thing about the candu technology as it has two independent shutdown systems, because it uses your natural uranium, it is much safer to handle and to dispose of, we have a vacuum structure. So I quite like the Canadian technology, I think it's really good. We have a really good supply of uranium here in Canada. So it made sense for us to use that natural product rather than building enrichment facilities and going through those extra steps.

Dan Seguin  22:17

Now, there's still a myth that nuclear energy is not safe. Some associate nuclear bombs with nuclear reactors. I'm not sure if you watch the HBO series Chernobyl. But can you explain to the audience why an incident, like what occurred in the Soviet Union in 1986 is very unlikely to happen here. Perhaps you can also talk a bit about radiation.

Matthew Mairinger  22:48

Yeah. So I always just like to start off with a quote, this comes from the book A Bright Future. It says, "In thinking about nuclear power safety, one should always ask compared to what? And the answer is compared to coal, the world's dominant and fastest growing fuel, the leading cause of climate change, the fuel that kills a million people a year - compared to that." So I think we always have to ground ourselves in what we are actually comparing to. And if you look at the numbers, the best analysis for safety is called the death footprint. What it does is it compares coal, it compares oil and hydro, compares nuclear, solar and wind, to the worst case scenarios from Fukushima, Chernobyl. And it says how many people are actually dying from this energy source at the same amount of energy produced, so it puts it all on the same scale. And what it actually shows is that nuclear is orders of magnitude safer than coal and oil, because it doesn't produce pollution. So millions of people every year are dying from pollution from respiratory issues. And nuclear energy, for example, results in 99.8% fewer deaths than brown coal. So it is just so clean. And again, it's this people see a Chernobyl miniseries on HBO, it's you know, produced by Hollywood, they say a large number of people died, where people hear about it in the News, the news and everything else is to amplify the message. So it's trying to do this scare tactic to really, you know, show nuclear disaster in Japan, but no one really follows up on it. So it is amongst the safest. It produces no carbon dioxide, it doesn't produce mercury, and it doesn't produce all these harmful things that burning coal and gas does as well, and why it's very unlikely here compared to Chernobyl. So Chernobyl was a nuclear design that used graphite as a moderator. It had no containment structure. It was run during the, in the Soviet times during the Cold War, where they had no external agencies looking at it, they had political appointees in the control room, just almost everything wrong you could possibly imagine was done there. So, so now we have independent shutdown systems, we have containment structures, we have external agencies looking at the safety records. So there's just so much that has changed from that. And nuclear technology is so new people forget that, you know, it's only in the last 50-60 years that we learned about it. So there was obviously going to be some bumps in the road at the start. But you know, we've learned from that, especially these new designs, they're passively safe. They're inherently safe. So we've taken those lessons learned. And it's very, very, very unlikely here. So in terms of radiation,  one thing I just want to get right off the bat is, radiation is a form of heat transfer, there's conduction, there's convection, and then there's radiation. And radiation as a form of heat transfer is how we actually heat up the planet. So across the vacuum, radiation is the only way to transfer heat from the Sun to the Earth through space, which is a vacuum. Now, the electromagnetic spectrum, which includes x rays, gamma rays, but also radio waves, and microwaves and visible light that we see, we can only see a billionth of a billionth portion of that electromagnetic spectrum. And for non ionizing radiation, that ionization means that the radiation's energy can produce ions, which are charged atoms by knocking negatively charged electrons off of a neutral atom. So non ionizing radiation, there is no proven biological mechanism whereby non ionizing radiation might cause cancer. So those are the radio waves that we come in contact with. That's all the microwaves that we see out there. It's only when we come into the higher energy, which are the X rays, and the gamma rays, which are actually higher frequency waves, that they are considered ionizing radiation. So with that in mind, just want to say that, on average, we all receive around two to three millisieverts of radiation each year. And that varies considerably based on how high up you are, you'll get more radiation at higher altitudes, and also the environment that you live in. So for resonance in Ramsar, Iran, they can receive up to 260 millisieverts per year, which is around 100 times the global average, just due to naturally occurring radioactive elements around them. But there's actually no evidence of any adverse health effects in those areas. So this is always good to keep in mind that there's no just standard level of radiation that people are exposed to. And it also depends on how many medical treatments you have. So some of the chemotherapy or medical imaging can introduce quite a bit more radiation into different people, radio sensitivities. So really the best analysis is the ICRP estimates that around 200 millisieverts raises the risk of cancer (fatal cancer) by 1%. So that's always good to keep in mind when we hear all these numbers and we see the dose charts after Chernobyl or Fukushima, and sometimes people forget, but the baseline lifetime cancer risk for females is around 38%. And for males is around 45%. So there's actually quite a bit of cancer, regardless of radiation just from the cells dividing. But radiation actually has a lot of positive things that it does. So when we have food, we can actually bombard it with radiation. So gamma rays, and this doesn't make the food radioactive. It doesn't make it harmful, but it destroys the bacteria which can cause a lot of problems around the world which has a lot of health issues. We can sterilize medical equipment with this. With radiation, we can treat cancers, we can do medical imaging, we can look for defects and products that we produce. So radiation is all around us. There's radon in your basement, there's potassium 40 in your bananas in the soil, there's radiation, actually, coal burns, releases quite a bit of radiation as well because they're just burning natural elements from the ground. So you'll release thorium, you'll release uranium, release polonium, so actually the stack from coal actually releases around 100 times more radiation than the nuclear station. So being around that. So I think that's always key, as well as to compare the radiation to other things around us. But radiation has been around since the start of the universe. It's, it's, it's there forever. And we're still living with the products there as well. Hope that explained it,

Dan Seguin  30:18

Matthew, how has the pandemic changed the nuclear landscape for Canada. Did you need to pivot, whether in terms of production or operations?

Matthew Mairinger  30:31

COVID, has actually really opened people's eyes to risk. So you know, now every day you go to the grocery store, you're taking a slight risk. And it really shows that there's always risks in the world. And we just need to define what we're comfortable with. And nuclear has also really been a backbone here during COVID. Because we need the hospitals, we need our homes to be heated, we need the grocery stores, we need these fundamental sources of electricity. And we need to be assured that while everyone's running around scared about toilet paper, I saw no one panic about electricity, which was really important. So I think people are learning more that electricity needs to be stable. We don't want blackouts, blackouts cost lives. And that was something that I think people are starting to become aware of. We did need to change some of our outages, so across the nuclear sector for refurbishment and outages, they do have a large amount of contractors and other people coming together. So some of those were deferred a couple of months due to COVID. But other than that, we've had stable electricity being produced across North America and across the world, to nuclear.

Dan Seguin  31:47

Let's talk about the future and Canada's role in nuclear innovation. I know this is something your organization is part of. But can you talk to us a bit about small modular reactors? What are they? And what are their benefits?

Matthew Mairinger  32:06

So I think we saw in the nuclear sector a growing trend to get bigger and bigger and bigger. You know, we started out with very small reactors, and then they got to 1000 megawatts electric 1300-1400. Because as you get a bigger type of reactor, in terms of neutron efficiency, it does have some advantages. But what we saw then was, you know, the only countries that could start to build these were countries that had fully developed nations, they had a lot of government support. And really, we're starting to exclude some of the key sectors. So for example, in the mining communities, for remote communities, for developing nations, they couldn't have access to this. So what small modular reactors really are, are, they're smaller. So you know, we're looking at the order of 300 megawatts electric and smaller, all the way down to under one megawatt electric, which is very good for remote communities for mining communities as well. They're modular, so they're prefabricated in manufacturing. So instead of doing everything on site, you can almost do it through economies of scale, where you produce all the components together and then that reduces the cost as well. And that also allows countries or organizations to start with one type of module. And you know, if the community expands in size, they can add a second one, so it's a modular design that allows them to expand as they need to. And again, this is the new type of designs that they're doing. So they would put these in the communities, they can't melt down, you can't make weapons from them. So they're using the latest type of physics in these types of designs. So there's many different types of designs, but really, what they're doing is they're taking the latest learnings, the latest operating experience, just to make them the safest. The other advantage of small modular reactors as well as they operate at a much higher temperature. So now what you can do is you can use that waste heat, you can split water into hydrogen, so you could be producing hydrogen for the transportation sector, you could look at desalinization, you have all these other type of benefits, since they operate at a much higher temperature, and they could be placed within communities

Dan Seguin  34:32

Per the small modular roadmap, when do you expect the first ones to come online?

Matthew Mairinger  34:39

Yes, so the first demonstration unit is going to be cited at Chalk River by 2026. And the first on-grid small modular reactors are actually going to be built at the Darlington site as early as 2028. But again, small modular reactors really have been in existence since the start of nuclear. They've been in submarines. They've been in demonstration units. So I think some people are concerned that this is a new technology, but really, we've had them for quite a long time. But now they're getting focused. They're trying to do new designs. But we've already seen this in the nuclear sector since the early 50s.

Dan Seguin  35:21

Okay, Matthew, are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions?

Matthew Mairinger  35:27

Sure.

Dan Seguin  35:28

Let's go with the first one. What is your favorite word?

Matthew Mairinger  35:32

Got to say, verbosity, it's just the quality of using more words than needed. wordiness I just think the word itself is so pretentious to describe pretentiousness, it's great.

Dan Seguin  35:45

What is one thing you can't live without?

Matthew Mairinger  35:48

Oxygen.

Dan Seguin  35:49

What habit or hobby Have you picked up during shelter in place?

Matthew Mairinger  35:55

So with the gyms closed, I really got back into running. So I ran my first marathon during that. So opened up a positive trait, I guess.

Dan Seguin  36:03

If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Matthew Mairinger  36:08

Oh, time travel for sure.

Dan Seguin  36:11

If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell him?

Matthew Mairinger  36:17

I'd say to get more involved in nonprofit into these types of organizations through high school through university. They provide a lot of benefits. And I really wasn't aware of them until after I graduated.

Dan Seguin  36:30

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Matthew Mairinger  36:37

So I think it's really our impact on fighting climate change, fighting pollution, you know, we're still kind of the underdog out there. So we're still fighting to get recognized but lots of opportunities. And I really think it's going to be the sector that makes the difference.

Dan Seguin  36:53

Well, Matthew, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Again, thank you so much for joining us today. And I hope you had a lot of fun.

Matthew Mairinger  37:03

Yeah, no, thanks for having me. And great to be part of this.

Dan Seguin  37:11

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.