This week I had a wonderful conversation with Sr. Carino Hodder from the The Dominican Sisters of St. Joseph. I first met Sr. Carino when she participated in one of my online workshops about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church. Since then we’ve had several conversations about safeguarding, abuse of conscience, and the role of the catechist. I’ve really valued her perspective and insights. She has recently written a couple of articles on those topics, which seemed like a great excuse to have her on the podcast to talk about vulnerability, conscience, and the role of the catechist.

Sr. Carino Hodder is a Dominican Sister of Saint Joseph based in the New Forest in England. She assists her community with their apostolate of training catechists, primarily as a tutor on their Certificate in Catechesis. Since becoming a sister, she has worked as a First Holy Communion catechist, a Confirmation catechist, and a parish sister in a parish in London, as well as being involved in ongoing formation for all age groups. She also writes regularly for The Lamp magazine and has contributed to other publications including Where Peter Is, The Pillar, and Plough.

LINKS:

The Dominican Sisters of St. Josephhttps://www.dominicansisters.net/

Light of Truth: Live Catholic Formation for Everyonehttps://www.lightoftruth.uk/

Freedom, Safety and Vulnerabilityhttps://wherepeteris.com/freedom-safety-and-vulnerability/

Vulnerability and the Conscience in Catechesishttps://wherepeteris.com/vulnerability-and-the-conscience-in-catechesis/

Substitute for Virtue: On the exercise of charisms without gracehttps://thelampmagazine.com/blog/substitute-virtue

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

In this first episode of 2025, I talked with my good friend and mentor, Monica Pope, about hope. We began by talking about the role of the catechist before launching into a catechesis about hope in light of the theme of the 2025 Jubilee Year, “Pilgrims of Hope.” All of that set up a more personal discussion about what hope actually looks like in our concrete lives. We proposed that hope is really only born out of a “third space” where the reality of all the bad is accepted—not bypassed—while holding onto the belief that God is good. Talking with Monica is always a consolation for me, I hope that’s your experience as well.

Monica Pope has been doing evangelizing catechesis for 30 years in the Catholic Church. She has worked in Michigan parishes as Director of Catechesis, RCIA leader, and Director of Discipleship Ministries. Monica has created family catechesis programs in several parishes; she’s formed many dedicated and gifted Catholic disciples to be effective catechists. She’s written and led hundreds of retreats, presented for thousands of people, ranging from First Communicants and their parents, to senior residents at assisted living facilities, to employees of diocesan chancelleries. These days she’s a master catechist for a catholic media company. And cofounder of Practical Kerygma.

LINKS:

Practical Kerygma:https://www.practicalkerygma.com/

Spes Non Confundit - Bull of Indiction of the Ordinary Jubilee of the Year 2025:https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/bulls/documents/20240509_spes-non-confundit_bolla-giubileo2025.html

Details for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here:https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

Details for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here:

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

In this episode, I spoke with Natalie Pucillo. She recently wrote a couple of articles about her visit to Rome during the final meeting of the Synod on Synodality. Her reflections were so good, capturing both the harm and the hope she experienced. So asked if she would be on the podcast to talk about those articles. Specifically, I wanted to know her perspective on the synod and reform in the Church. And I wanted to hear about her experiences of hope. It was a wonderful conversation.

Natalie Pucillo is currently a Master of Divinity student at Loyola University Chicago’s Institute of Pastoral Studies, where she integrates her interests in Catholic liturgy and sacramental theology, ecclesiology, and trauma-informed pastoral practices. She was a cradle Catholic and served for over 10 years as a professional church musician in various Washington, DC-area churches. She now works in higher education student support, and currently serves on the Leadership and Prayer teams for Awake. As a survivor of abuse by a lay minister in the Catholic Church, Natalie is passionate about spreading awareness about the spiritual effects of abuse by lay leaders, and working for accountability and transformation in our Church.

LINKS

Word Made Flesh: Reflections on the Synod on Synodality

https://allthatishidden.substack.com/p/word-made-flesh

A Survivor Visits Rome

https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/a-survivor-visits-rome

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

Details for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here:

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

This week I had a wonderful conversation with Colleen Dulle, co-host of the Inside the Vatican podcast, about the Synod on Synodality. I was pretty disappointed when the synod finished and felt like, instead of real change, we just got vibes. Colleen felt differently. So I wanted to ask her about her time in Rome during the final synod meeting, and the final synod document, and where she sees signs of real reform. As always, it was great talking with her.

Colleen Dulle is an associate editor at America Media, where she co-hosts the weekly news podcast Inside the Vatican. She writes and edits Vatican news and analysis articles for America Magazine and contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Her forthcoming book, Struck Down, Not Destroyed, on the spiritual crises that result from reporting on the endemic problems of the Catholic Church, will be published by Penguin Random House in Summer 2025.

LINKS

Colleen’s Website

https://www.colleendulle.com

Colleen’s Linktree

https://linktr.ee/colleendulle

Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog

https://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_house

Colleen Dulle - Fr. Rupnik and Trusting the Pope

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-fr-rupnik-and-trusting

Colleen Dulle - Synodality and Spiritual Crises

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-synodality-and-spiritual

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

A few weeks ago I was invited to be a speaker for a Courageous Conversation event hosted by Awake, A Catholic non-profit whose mission "is to awaken our community to the full reality of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, work for transformation, and foster healing for all who have been wounded."

Courageous Conversations is an online speaker series designed to “build community, deepen understanding, encourage conversation, and inspire personal action in response to the complex issue of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church.”

Last month’s topic was titled "Cultivating a Gospel Response to Trauma" nd was about how to foster trauma-informed church communities and spaces "that are sensitive to the needs of survivors of sexual abuse by Catholic leaders.”I was humbled and honored to be asked to participate in this event. Especially alongside Pete Singer, from the organization GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment), and the author of the excellent article: Toward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abuse.Making the Church more trauma-informed is not only important in our pastoral care and evangelization efforts, but I believe having a preferential option for survivors of trauma is an essential aspect of our identity as Christians.

I received permission to share the audio recording of this event as a bonus podcast episode.

LINKS

Give to Awake

https://www.awakecommunity.org/donate

Courageous Conversations Video

https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/courageous-conversation-makes-the-case-for-working-toward-a-trauma-sensitive-church

Toward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abuse

https://currentsjournal.org/index.php/currents/article/view/444

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

This week I talked with Fr. Chris Kellerman SJ about his excellent and challenging book, “All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church.” In our conversation he presents a brief history of the Church’s involvement with, and teachings about, slavery. Fr. Chris also responds to still repeated misconceptions and revisionist histories about the Church’s participation in the slave trade. Finally, we talk about how this relates to the priest abuse crisis and how confronting the evils in the Church impacts our own faith. 

Also, I apologize for the audio quality of this episode, I didn’t realize I was using the wrong microphone until after the recording was over. 

Fr. Chris Kellerman, SJ, is Secretary of Justice and Ecology for the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States in Washington, D.C, where he oversees the U.S. government relations and legislative advocacy operations of the Jesuits. Originally from Arlington, TX, he studied at Texas Tech University, the University of Dallas, and Regis College at the University of Toronto. He is the author of All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church.

LINKS:

All Oppression Shall Cease : A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church

https://orbisbooks.com/products/all-opression-shall-cease-a-history-of-slavery-abolitionism-and-the-catholic-church

Alessandra Harris - The Truth about the Catholic Church & Slavery with Chris Kellerman, SJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2yRqU-B1oY

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. 

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

I have a wonderful conversation with Laura Vander Vos to share with you. Laura is the cofounder of TradRecovery, an apostolate that provides resources and community for folks leaving traditionalist spaces and who want to be in full communion with the Church. In this episode we talk about the real harm that so many people have experienced within Traditionalism and the work that TradRecovery is doing to help. 

Laura is a homeschooled wife and mother, who hails from Montana. She has a background in sacred music and is a self-published author. Laura operates the MissHappyCatholic youtube channel and co-founded the TradRecovery apostolate in 2023.

LINKS:

TradRecovery

https://www.tradrecovery.com

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. 

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

This week I talked with my favorite online cleric, Deacon Steven Greydanus. As a Catholic who cares deeply about Catholic Social Teaching, the deacon’s writings since 2016 have helped make me feel like the Catholic world hasn’t completely gone mad and that I still had a place in the Church. In August he wrote an excellent article titled, “Reflections on voting as a pro-life Catholic.” So I used that article as an excuse to invite him on the podcast to talk about the ways that politics and partisanship have harmed the Church in the US.

Steven D. Greydanus has been writing about film since 2000, when he created Decent Films. Since then, he’s written regularly for a number of outlets including the National Catholic Register, Catholic Digest, Crux, Christianity Today, and Catholic World Report. Other bylines include RogerEbert.com, Slate, Bright Wall/Dark Room, and Our Sunday Visitor.

SDG has contributed to the New Catholic Encyclopedia (Gale Research), the Encyclopedia of Catholic Social Thought, Social Science, and Social Policy (Scarecrow Press), the T & T Clark Handbook of Jesus and Film (Bloombury Publishing), and Film as an Expression of Spirituality: The Arts and Faith Top 100 Films (Cambridge Scholars). For ten years he co-hosted the Gabriel Award–winning cable TV show “Reel Faith” for New Evangelization Television, and he has appeared frequently on Catholic radio.

SDG is a member of the New York Film Critics Circle and a deacon in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Newark. He studied at the School of Visual Arts (BFA, Media Arts), Saint Charles Borromeo Seminary (MA, Religious Studies), and Immaculate Conception Seminary at Seton Hall University (MA, Theology).

For over 18 years he wrote regularly for the National Catholic Register and was their film critic for nearly 11 years. His work at the Register was recognized several times by the Catholic Media Association Awards, including first-place wins in 2016 and 2017 and second-place wins in 2015 and 2019.

SDG and his wife Suzanne have seven children.

LINKS:

Reflections on voting as a pro-life Catholic:

https://greydanus.substack.com/p/reflections-on-voting-as-a-pro-life

Decent Films:

https://decentfilms.com/

Pope Francis Generation interview with Deacon Greydanus:"

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/deacon-steven-greydanus-watching 

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. 

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

As we quickly approach another presidential election, I wanted to have Dr. Matthew Shadle on to talk about the USCCB’s voters guide, Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship. We discuss the history, development, and purpose of this voters guide. I also share some of my own struggles with this document, including how I see parts of it as incongruent with Pope Francis’s social teaching. 

After more than sixteen years of teaching theology at Loras College in Dubuque, Iowa and Marymount University in Arlington, Virginia, Dr. Matthew Shadle is the Academic Assessment Coordinator for the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at the University of Iowa. He received his B.A. in Religion from Hendrix College in Conway, Arkansas, and his M.A. and Ph.D. in Theology from the University of Dayton, in Dayton, Ohio. 

He has published Interrupting Capitalism: Catholic Social Thought and the Economy (Oxford, 2018) and The Origins of War: A Catholic Perspective (Georgetown, 2011), as well as numerous essays and articles on Catholic social teaching and its intersection with both fundamental moral theology and the social sciences, with special focus on war and peace, the economy, and immigration. He is currently the editor of Window Light, a Substack newsletter focused on Catholic theology and ministry.

LINKS:

Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship

https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf 

Matthew Shadle

https://collegeview.academia.edu/MatthewShadle 

Public Reason as Historical Reason: Post-Conciliar Social Teaching in the United States (academic article by Matthew Shadle)

https://www.academia.edu/33591440/Public_Reason_as_Historical_Reason_Post_Conciliar_Social_Teaching_in_the_United_States

Pope Francis Generation interview with Matthew Shadle

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/matthew-shadle-franciss-theological

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. 

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

In this episode, I talked with Dr. Shaun Blanchard about the trend I’ve seen among not only Traditionalist, but also mainstream “JPII Catholics,” to reject the development of doctrine and embrace a type of Catholic fundamentalism.

Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils. 

He is the author of The Synod of Pistoia and Vatican II (OUP: 2020) and, with Ulrich Lehner, co-edited The Catholic Enlightenment: A Global Anthology (CUA: 2021). With Stephen Bullivant, Shaun co-wrote Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023). With Richard T. Yoder, Shaun co-edited Jansenism: An International Anthology (CUA Press: 2024).

LINKS:

Shaun Blanchard:

https://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchard

Traditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgy:

https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/

The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican II:

https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-real

Shaun Blanchard - A Hermeneutic of Reform:

http://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/shaun-blanchard-a-hermeneutic-of

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. 

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.