Third Space Podcast

Through the summer I’m reposting throwback episodes, and today I’m resharing an episode from my old podcast, Pope Francis Generation, where Dominic and I spoke with Brad Jersak.

Brad Jersak is the Dean of Theology & Culture at St. Stephen’s University in New Brunswick, Canada, and editor in chief of Clarion-Journal.com. He is also the author or coauthor of a number of nonfiction and fiction books, including the More Christlike series.

I first came across Brad’s work several years ago when a friend shared a video of his talk “The Gospel in Chairs.” I’ve watched it dozens of times since then and am still sharing it with others. It is one of the most compelling proclamations of the kerygma that I’ve ever heard.

Then a few years ago I read Brad’s book, “Out of the Embers: Faith After the Great Deconstruction.” The book was healing for me and helped me navigate my own struggles trying to exist in a Church that has harmed me and people I care about. It’s a book I’ve returned to often in my conversations with folks who are going through deconstruction or have been spiritually abused.

In this conversation, we talk about this book and discuss what it looks like to follow Jesus in the midst of suffering and trauma, even when the harm is coming from the Church.

I’m excited to share it with you again!

Two quick announcements before we jump into the episode!

First, Sarah Carter (from Pope Leo Weekly and Recovering Catholic) and I are doing a new project together, The Leo Seminar: a space where people could read Pope Leo’s actual words, in community, without an ideological agenda.

Sarah and I believe that striving for integrity is more important than having the right answers; dialogue and curiosity are more important than ideological purity; unity in diversity is more important than uniformity; “truth is not a territory to be defended, but a good to be shared” (Magnifica Humanitas 25); and “realities are greater than ideas” (Evangelii Gaudium231).

The Leo Seminar exists for anyone who wants to step into a process of collective study and discernment instead of consuming “hot takes.” In this seminar, you will spend twelve weeks digging into primary texts, guided discussion, and honestly wrestling with what Pope Leo is actually saying and where he’s leading the Church.

You won’t leave with a verdict handed to you, but you’ll have the opportunity to form your own conclusions in a community of people who take the questions as seriously as you do. People who are willing to undertake this kind of slow and serious formation will be agents of renewal in the Church, more equipped to proclaim the Gospel in the modern world.

The Leo Seminar is a small group online seminar starting on Friday, September 4 at 12:00 (ET). The group will meet every week for 90 minutes, for 12 consecutive weeks. Sarah and Paul will lead each discussion, and we will have occasional special guests, including Pope Leo’s biographer, Elise Ann Allen!

Registration closes this Friday.

For more details, visit catholicthirdspace.com

Also, registration is still open for my next round of spiritual abuse workshops. This is an online workshop focused on recognizing, preventing, and responding to spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

This workshop is for:

* Individuals trying to better understand their experiences of spiritual abuse in the Church

* Clergy and lay leaders interested in safeguarding their communities from spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience

* Therapists or spiritual directors working with clients who have been spiritually abused

This workshop will help you:

* Recognize and prevent spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Church

* Know the symptoms of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and moral injury

* Better understand and respond to abusive systems in the Church

This is a live online workshop that meets in a small group over the course of five weeks. The workshops begin next week, so sign up now!

Visit catholicthirdspace.com for more details.

LINKS:

The Leo Seminarhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/enrollment-is-open-for-the-leo-seminar

Spiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-34d

Out of the Embers: Faith After the Great Deconstructionhttps://www.amazon.com/Out-Embers-Faith-After-Deconstruction/dp/1641238887

The Gospel in Chairshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_aALyEKh_A

Brad’s Substackhttps://bradleyjersak124315.substack.com/

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Through the summer I’m reposting throwback episodes, and today, I wanted to reshare a panel discussion I was a part of nearly two years ago about how the Church can be more trauma informed.

Back in 2024 I was invited to be a speaker for a Courageous Conversation event hosted by Awake, A Catholic non-profit whose mission “is to awaken our community to the full reality of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, work for transformation, and foster healing for all who have been wounded.”

Courageous Conversations is thier online speaker series designed to “build community, deepen understanding, encourage conversation, and inspire personal action in response to the complex issue of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church.”

The topic of this conversation was titled “Cultivating a Gospel Response to Trauma” and was about how to foster trauma-informed church communities and spaces “that are sensitive to the needs of survivors of sexual abuse by Catholic leaders.”

I was humbled and honored to be asked to participate in this event. Especially alongside the late Pete Singer, from the organization GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment), and the author of the excellent article: Toward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abuse.

Making the Church more trauma-informed is not only important in our pastoral care and evangelization efforts, but I believe having a preferential option for survivors of trauma is an essential aspect of our identity as Christians.

I’m excited to share it with you again!

Also, I just opened up registration for my next round of spiritual abuse workshops. This is an online workshop focused on recognizing, preventing, and responding to spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

This workshop is for:

* Individuals trying to better understand their experiences of spiritual abuse in the Church

* Clergy and lay leaders interested in safeguarding their communities from spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience

* Therapists or spiritual directors working with clients who have been spiritually abused

This workshop will help you:

* Recognize and prevent spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Church

* Know the symptoms of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and moral injury

* Better understand and respond to abusive systems in the Church

This is a live online workshop that meets in a small group over the course of five weeks, beginning in September.

Click here for more information: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-34d

LINKS:

Give to Awakehttps://www.awakecommunity.org/donate

Courageous Conversations Videohttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/courageous-conversation-makes-the-case-for-working-toward-a-trauma-sensitive-church

Toward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abusehttps://currentsjournal.org/index.php/currents/article/view/444

Spiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-34d

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

Sarah and I wanted to take a few minutes to talk about The Leo Seminar and why we’re starting this new project. Here are some of the details:

The Leo Seminar

The Leo Seminar is a small group online seminar starting on Friday, September 4 at 12:00 (ET). The group will meet every week for 90 minutes, for 12 consecutive weeks. Sarah and Paul will lead each discussion, and we will have occasional special guests, including Pope Leo’s biographer, Elise Ann Allen!

Who The Leo Seminar for:

* Catechists

* Teachers

* Clergy

* Parents

* Catholics

* Non-Catholics

* Anyone who wants to better understand the mind and teaching of our new pope

What we’ll be reading together:

* Pope Leo XIV: The Biography by Elise Ann Allen

* Evangelii Gaudium by Pope Francis (programmatic document that has set the stage for Leo’s pontificate)

* Magnifica Humanitas (On artificial intelligence)

* Dilexi Te (On love for the poor)

* In Unitate Fidei (On Christian unity)

* Other selected homilies and addresses form Pope Leo

What you’ll get when you enroll:

* A copy of Pope Leo XIV: The Biography by Elise Ann Allen sent directly to your mailing address

* A 60-minute, live, “closed-door” Q&A with the first and only person to be granted an exclusive interview with Pope Leo XIV, Elise Ann Allen

* The Leo Seminar Reader, a digital reading packet designed for ease of use and note taking

* Twelve 90-minute sessions, with in-depth analysis and discussion

* A community to study and discuss with, and opportunities to stay connected after the seminar ends

When we’ll meet:

* Every Friday from September 4 - November 20

* All meetings from 12:00-1:30 p.m. ET

Cost:

* $1,200 (with options to pay in installments via Stripe)

Thanks for reading Third Space! This post is public so feel free to share it.

Through the summer I’m reposting throwback episodes, and today I’m resharing an episode from November 2024 with Laura Vander Vos from Trad Recovery. I wanted to re-share this conversation because of the SSPX being in the news this past month. Laura and I talked about the real harm that so many people have experienced within Catholic Traditionalism and the work that TradRecovery is doing to help.

I’m excited to share it with you again!

Also, I just opened up registration for my next round of spiritual abuse workshops. This is an online workshop focused on recognizing, preventing, and responding to spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

This workshop is for:

* Individuals trying to better understand their experiences of spiritual abuse in the Church

* Clergy and lay leaders interested in safeguarding their communities from spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience

* Therapists or spiritual directors working with clients who have been spiritually abused

This workshop will help you:

* Recognize and prevent spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Church

* Know the symptoms of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and moral injury

* Better understand and respond to abusive systems in the Church

This is a live online workshop that meets in a small group over the course of five weeks, beginning in September.

Visit for here more details: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-34d

Laura is a homeschooled wife and mother, who hails from Montana. She has a background in sacred music and is a self-published author. Laura operates the MissHappyCatholic youtube channel and co-founded the TradRecovery apostolate in 2023.

LINKS:

TradRecoveryhttps://www.tradrecovery.com

Spiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-34d

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

Thanks for reading Third Space! This post is public so feel free to share it.

Today I’m resharing an episode from November 2024 with Fr. Chris Kellerman. I wanted to re-share this conversation because of how relevant it is to Pope Leo’s new encyclical, Magnifica Humanitas.

In Paragraph 176 of that encyclical, the pope said:

“In the development of her doctrine, the Church has gradually come to a deeper awareness of the gravity of these issues. It is true that past events cannot be judged anachronistically, as though the moral criteria that matured over time had always been available. Yet neither can we deny or diminish the delay with which both society and the Church came to denounce the scourge of slavery.

In antiquity and the Middle Ages many individuals and even ecclesiastical institutions had slaves. Already in the early modern period, the Apostolic See of Rome, responding to requests from Sovereigns, intervened several times in order to regulate and legitimize forms of subjugation, and, in certain cases, the enslavement of ‘infidels.’ [174] It was only in the nineteenth century that a formal, absolute and universal condemnation of slavery was clearly articulated, notably under Pope Leo XIII. [175]

This development offers a clear example of the Church’s growth in understanding the perennial truths of Revelation that she safeguards. Although there was not always consistency in practice — given that slavery was long tolerated before being unequivocally condemned — there has been a continuous affirmation throughout history of the dignity of every human being, created in the image of God, even if it took eighteen centuries for its full incompatibility with slavery to be explicitly recognized.

This constitutes a wound in Christian memory, one from which we cannot consider ourselves detached. [176] It is impossible not to feel deep sorrow when contemplating the immense suffering and humiliation endured by so many in stark contrast to their immeasurable dignity as persons infinitely loved by the Lord. For this, in the name of the Church, I sincerely ask for pardon.”

It’s hard to overstate how significant this paragraph is.

It feels meaningful that it’s the first American pope, himself a descendant of enslaved persons and of people who owned slaves, who is unequivocally apologizing for the Church’s horrific historical complicity in slavery. This stands in contrast to his namesake, Leo XII, who penned a revisionist history when he condemned slavery in 1888. Also, this paragraph is, to my knowledge, the most authoritative magisterial teaching to date that states that doctrine can, and has, developed to the point of apparent reversal. Further, Pope Leo also indicates that the Church delaying development can be profoundly unjust.

And all of this connects to my conversation nearly two years ago with Fr. Chris Kellerman SJ about his book, “All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church.”

In that conversation he presented a brief history of the Church’s involvement with, and teachings about, slavery. Fr. Chris also responded to still repeated misconceptions and revisionist histories about the Church’s participation in the slave trade. Finally, we talked about how this relates to the priest abuse crisis and how confronting the evils in the Church impacts our own faith.

I’m excited to share it with you again!

Also, I apologize for the audio quality of this episode, I didn’t realize I was using the wrong microphone until after the recording was over.

Fr. Chris Kellerman, SJ, is Secretary of Justice and Ecology for the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States in Washington, D.C, where he oversees the U.S. government relations and legislative advocacy operations of the Jesuits. Originally from Arlington, TX, he studied at Texas Tech University, the University of Dallas, and Regis College at the University of Toronto. He is the author of All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church.

LINKS:

All Oppression Shall Cease : A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church

https://orbisbooks.com/products/all-opression-shall-cease-a-history-of-slavery-abolitionism-and-the-catholic-church

Alessandra Harris - The Truth about the Catholic Church & Slavery with Chris Kellerman, SJ

https://youtu.be/W2yRqU-B1oY

Navigating growth and development in a living tradition

https://wherepeteris.com/navigating-growth-and-development-in-a-living-tradition/

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Today I’m resharing the second of a two-part series from the first season of Third Space. This is a conversation I had with Dr. Marcus Mescher about liberation theology and what it means to have a preferential option for survivors. I think what Marcus presents here can help us understand some of Pope Leo’s background and vision for the Church.

Also, I wanted to share that I have a new self-paced online course about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church. This course will help you recognize spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church; know the symptoms of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and moral injury; and better identify spiritually abusive systems. The course includes access to a private online community where you can connect and share resources with others who have gone through this course.

Check out the course here:

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/new-self-paced-online-course-about

This is Part Two of a two-part conversation with Dr. Marcus Mescher. In the first part of the conversation we discussed Liberation Theology, its origins, development, and relationship with the universal Church. We also spent time reflecting on the life and work of the Dominican theologian, Gustavo Gutiérrez. In Part-Two, we dive into the Church’s teaching on the preferential option for the poor, exploring its roots in Scripture as well as its relationship to the Ordo Amoris. From there we discuss the importance of the Church having a “preferential option for survivors” and what living that out could look like on an institutional and personal level. I really loved this conversation and I hope you enjoy it as well.

Dr. Marcus Mescher is associate professor of Christian ethics. He holds a Ph.D. from Boston College and specializes in Catholic social teaching and moral formation. His research and writing concentrate in the following areas: human dignity and rights; social/environmental justice for the global common good; how moral agency is impacted by cultural context and digital technology; the moral dimensions of friendship; sexual justice and the ethics of marriage and family life; liberation theology and inclusive solidarity; healing the psychological, spiritual, social, and moral harm caused by clergy abuse. Dr. Mescher has written dozens of popular and academic articles. His current research and writing focus on mental health and moral injury.

If you haven’t listened to Part One, I would encourage you to start with that episode.

LINKS:

Measuring & Exploring Moral Injury Caused by Clergy Sexual Abusehttps://www.xavier.edu/moral-injury-report/

“Moral Injury and Clerical Sexual Abuse” PFG podcast with Marcus Mescherhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/marcus-mescher-moral-injury-and-clerical

The Liberation Theology Podcasthttps://open.spotify.com/episode/7rloQVzrrwM3WSp2OxRviY?si=04fe4a3646a9441b

Accountability, Healing, and Trust: Interdisciplinary Reflections for Ministry in the Midst of the Catholic Sex Abuse Crisishttps://litpress.org/Products/8897/Accountability-Healing-and-Trust

Awake Bloghttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blog

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Today I’m resharing the first of a two-part series from the first season of Third Space. This is a conversation I had with Dr. Marcus Mescher about liberation theology and what it means to have a preferential option for survivors. I think what Marcus presents here can help us understand some of Pope Leo’s background and vision for the Church.

Also, I wanted to share that I have a new self-paced online course about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church. This course will help you recognize spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church; know the symptoms of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and moral injury; and better identify spiritually abusive systems. The course includes access to a private online community where you can connect and share resources with others who have gone through this course.

Check out the course here:

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/new-self-paced-online-course-about

This is Part One of a two-part conversation with Dr. Marcus Mescher. In the first part of the conversation we discuss Liberation Theology, its origins, development, and relationship with the universal Church. We also spend time reflecting on the life and work of the Dominican theologian, Gustavo Gutiérrez. In Part-Two, we will dive into the Church’s teaching on the preferential options for the poor, exploring its roots in Scripture as well as its relationship to the Ordo Amoris. From there we discussed the importance of the Church having a “preferential options for survivors” and what living that out could look like on an institutional and personal level. I really loved this conversation and I hope you enjoy it as well.

Dr. Marcus Mescher is associate professor of Christian ethics. He holds a Ph.D. from Boston College and specializes in Catholic social teaching and moral formation. His research and writing concentrate in the following areas: human dignity and rights; social/environmental justice for the global common good; how moral agency is impacted by cultural context and digital technology; the moral dimensions of friendship; sexual justice and the ethics of marriage and family life; liberation theology and inclusive solidarity; healing the psychological, spiritual, social, and moral harm caused by clergy abuse. Dr. Mescher has written dozens of popular and academic articles. His current research and writing focus on mental health and moral injury.

LINKS:

Measuring & Exploring Moral Injury Caused by Clergy Sexual Abusehttps://www.xavier.edu/moral-injury-report/

“Moral Injury and Clerical Sexual Abuse” PFG podcast with Marcus Mescherhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/marcus-mescher-moral-injury-and-clerical

The Liberation Theology Podcasthttps://open.spotify.com/episode/7rloQVzrrwM3WSp2OxRviY?si=04fe4a3646a9441b

Accountability, Healing, and Trust: Interdisciplinary Reflections for Ministry in the Midst of the Catholic Sex Abuse Crisishttps://litpress.org/Products/8897/Accountability-Healing-and-Trust

Awake Bloghttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blog

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

It was a lot of fun last night talking with Sarah Carter and Ricardo Simmonds about Pope Leo’s new encyclical on safeguarding humanity during the age of AI, Magnifica Humanitas.

We discussed why we think the encyclical is getting as much attention as it’s getting, if technology is neutral, what is means for the Church to dialogue with the world, and more!

Sarah and I hope to keep hosting these live discussions. Pope Leo is still working his way through his weekly catechesis on Sacrosanctum Concilium. Which we hope to devote the next Leo Live to once it’s all released. So keep an eye out!

Go ahead and follow Ricardo at Galileo's Ghost where he discusses “science, cosmology and its relationship to ecology, technology, policy, economics, politics, history, religion and culture.”

Become a paid subscriber to Third Space here: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Subscribe to Pope Leo Weekly here: https://popeleoweekly.substack.com/subscribe

“Humanity, created by God in all its grandeur, is today facing a pivotal choice: either to construct a new Tower of Babel or to build the city in which God and humanity dwell together. Each generation inherits the task of shaping its own era, of guiding history to become a place where the dignity of every person is safeguarded, justice is promoted and fraternity is made possible. Yet every era also runs the risk of creating an inhumane and more unjust world. Whenever humanity is in danger of marring its true identity, we Christians lift our eyes to the Incarnate God, knowing that it is “only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of humanity truly becomes clear.” In Jesus Christ, this humanity in its grandeur becomes the Way, the Truth and the Life, opening the path for each of us to grow toward fullness.” Pope Leo XIV, Magnifica Humanitas

Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Today I’m resharing an episode from February of 2025, in the first season of Third Space. This is a conversation I had with Esther Harber.

Esther Harber is a devoted Catholic living with her husband and daughters in Ohio. She is a convert from a fundamentalist Protestant denomination, and was blessed to enter the Catholic Church in 2006. The Lord placed a passion in her heart for sharing the faith, and she spent the better part of her twenties as a lay missionary in New York City. She was also in religious life for a year. During her time as a missionary she experienced spiritual abuse, grooming, and sexual assault by a Catholic priest. After a long period of healing, she felt the Lord calling her to walk with other victim-survivors and to bring light to this crisis in the Church.

In this discussion Esther shares her own story and how her experiences of harm have impacted her faith. Esther has maybe the biggest heart of anyone I’ve ever met. And her capacity to be present with others and hold their stories is profound. This is one of my favorite interviews.

Since this conversation was first published, Esther stepped away from her role as the Survivor Care Coordinator at Awake. Also, a few months ago, Esther was a speaker for one of Awake’s “Courageous Conversations.” She spoke about the harm caused by institutional betrayal from the Church. I’m linking to that in the show notes and would encourage you to listen to it as well.

And just a content note that this episode includes conversations about sexual assault.

Also, a huge thank you to everyone who became a financial supporter of Third Space over the past month. It means so much! Thank you.

LINKS:

Awake Courageous Conversation - Not Just a Few Bad Apples: The Trauma of Institutional Betrayal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICYqxT3zhWg&t=4s

Esther’s Survivor Story:

https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/esther-harber/

Contact Awake:

https://www.awakecommunity.org/contact

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

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“As we approach the documents of Vatican Council II and rediscover their prophetic and contemporary relevance, we welcome the rich tradition of the life of the Church and, at the same time, we question ourselves about the present and renew our joy in running towards the world to bring it the Gospel of the kingdom of God, a kingdom of love, justice and peace.” Pope Leo

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