Julie Packard is a leading ocean conservationist, so when the National Portrait Gallery approached her to sit for a portrait, she had one request: She wanted to work with an artist who could paint water. That artist, it turns out, is Hope Gangloff. Kim talks to both women on the day of the portrait's unveiling for a behind-the-scenes account of what it's like when the Gallery is your matchmaker.

Check out Hope’s portrait of Julie on our website: https://npg.si.edu/podcasts/underwater