Kelly talks with Emma Ashford about her new book, First Among Equals: U.S. Foreign Policy in a Multipolar World (Yale University Press, 2025), where she proposes a return to a more pragmatic, realist set of strategic principles, ones better suited for the emerging multipolar world, that would pursue narrower U.S. interests, cultivate the capabilities of friendly states, and emphasize room for maneuver over rigid alliances.

Emma Ashford is a senior fellow at the Stimson Center, where she is part of the Reimagining U.S. Grand Strategy Program. She is also an adjunct professor at the Georgetown University School of Foreign Service and a columnist at Foreign Policy.

Link to First Among Equals: U.S. Foreign Policy in a Multipolar World: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300279542/first-among-equals/

Link to New Visions of Grand Strategy: https://www.stimson.org/project/new-visions-for-grand-strategy/

The opinions expressed in this conversation are strictly those of the participants and do not represent the views of Georgetown University or any government entity.

Produced by Abdalla Nasef and Freddie Mallinson.

Recorded on September 17, 2025. Diplomatic Immunity, a podcast from the Institute for the Study of Diplomacy at Georgetown University, brings you frank and candid conversations with experts on the issues facing diplomats and national security decision-makers around the world.

Funding support from the Carnegie Corporation of New York.

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