In this episode, Mary Conquest speaks with Gill Kernick, a consultant in high-hazard industries and author of Catastrophe and Systemic Change - a book she wishes she never had to write.

It analyzes the Grenfell Tower fire, where Gill had previously lived. On the 14th of June 2017, she watched it burn. Seven of her former close neighbors died, in addition to 65 other people. She promised to make their lives count, so dedicates her work to ensuring that we learn better.

Gill challenges EHS professionals to move beyond compliance and technical fixes toward embracing complexity, diversity and fostering genuine organizational learning.

Her deeply considered insights offer a powerful call to action for meaningful systemic change that can prevent future accidents and transform how the safety profession impacts organizations and society.

Gill’s book: Catastrophe and Systemic Change: Learning from the Grenfell Tower Fire and Other Disasters - LPP - The London Publishing Partnership

(Published on 18th June 2026, but is available for early ordering in the UK - and a small donation will be made to the Grenfell Foundation)

Her blog about Grenfell.

Grenfell Inquiry Reports: Publication of the Grenfell Tower Inquiry phase 2 report - GOV.UK

Details on the Archives of all evidence: Records of the Grenfell Tower Inquiry - The National Archives

Post Normal Science:

Menagerie of Postnormal Potentialities | Post Normal Times

Knowledge, power, and participation in the post-normal age - ScienceDirect

Cynefin Framework: About - Cynefin Framework - The Cynefin Co

Jose Torero (Link to a blog I wrote on this): ‘The real failure of Grenfell – complexity, ambiguity and competency.’ Prof. Torero Transcript – The Grenfell Enquirer

The play 'Grenfell in the Words of Survivors': Grenfell: in the words of survivors | National Theatre

LinkedIn profile: Gill Kernick | LinkedIn

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