In this episode of The Yoga Therapy Hour, Amy speaks with Valerie Hesslink and Jeanne Kolker, both from Insight Counseling & Wellness, about how yoga therapy has tapped into billing through Wisconsin’s Comprehensive Community Services (CCS) program. Jeanne and Valerie discuss the realities of providing trauma-informed, community-based care, the role of skill building in recovery, and the organizational standards required to deliver CCS services. Valerie also shares her personal journey and how yoga helped her reconnect with herself during a difficult period. The conversation offers a grounded look at the future of integrative mental health and the importance of embodied practices in long-term healing.

Valerie Hesslink

Valerie brings both professional training and lived experience to her work in CCS. She speaks openly about a period in her life marked by emotional struggle and a deep sense of disconnection—an experience that led her to yoga when traditional therapies were not enough. Through sustained breathwork, embodiment practices, and steady support, she found her way back into her body and rebuilt her internal sense of safety and clarity. This personal journey now informs the way she teaches. Valerie’s approach is patient, relational, and grounded in empathy. She understands the courage it takes for clients to begin again and offers tools that help them move through daily life with more steadiness and trust.

Jeanne Kolker

Jeanne is a therapist and yoga teacher with extensive experience in trauma-informed care. She works at the intersection of somatic awareness and mental health, supporting individuals through recovery with clarity and compassion. Jeanne offers insight into how yoga therapy fits into multidisciplinary care and what is needed to ensure clients receive safe, consistent, and high-quality services.

Learn more about their work:

Insight Counseling & Wellness

• Counseling Services: https://insightmadison.com/ccs
• Yoga Studio: https://insightmadison.com/yogastudio

Learn More about the MS in Yoga Therapy: School of Integrative Health at NDMU: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health

Master of Science in Yoga Therapy at NDMU https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/yoga-therapy

Explore NDMU’s Post-Master’s Certificate in Therapeutic Yoga Practices, designed specifically for licensed healthcare professionals. https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/yoga-therapy/post-masters-certificate-in-therapeutic-yoga-practices

Try our Post-Bac Ayurveda Certification Program at NDMU: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/ayurveda/post-baccalaureate-ayurveda-certification

#IntegrativeHealth #HealthcareEducation #InterprofessionalEducation #GraduateSchool #NDMUproud #SOIHproud #SOIHYoga #SOIHAyurveda #NDMUYoga #NDMUAyurveda #SOIHGraduateSchool

Contact Amy Wheeler at www.TheOptimalState.com

Episode summary

Computer-science-turned-cognitive-science researcher and yoga therapist Chen Or Bach joins Amy to share a candid journey from academia to cancer survivorship, from mat-based practice to living yoga moment-to-moment. We trace how the pañca-kośa model reframed her healing, why standards and accreditation helped yoga integrate into Israeli healthcare, and what it means to let go of familiar tools and still remain fully in the path. It’s a forward-looking conversation about bringing steadiness (sthira) and sweetness (sukha) into real life—mountain trails, laundry folding, and all.

Listen for

• Nature as practice: Boulder’s mountains as living teachers of stability in change.
• Pañca-kośa in plain life: tending annamaya, prāṇamaya, manomaya, vijñānamaya, and especially ānandamaya—not as theory but daily design.
• When the practice stops “working”: giving yourself permission to let go of certain tools (āsana, set routines) and allow yoga to become how you meet each moment.
• Healthcare integration: how Israel’s modular 1,000-hour training (500 teacher + 500 therapy with specialty tracks) supported hospital uptake.
• Karma yoga without burnout: serving the field while protecting one’s vitality (tapas with svādhyāya and īśvara-praṇidhāna—Kriyā Yoga in action).
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Key takeaways

• Ānanda is not optional. Many of us optimize the outer layers (food, steps) and starve ānandamaya kośa. Intentionally design joy-creating activities; the outer layers flourish downstream.
• Your practice can change shape. If a tool stops serving, it’s not failure—it’s viveka (discernment). Let the aim (clarity, compassion, steadiness) stay constant while methods evolve.
• Standards serve people. Thoughtful accreditation isn’t bureaucracy—it’s ahimsā and satya for clients and health systems: clear scope, reliable skills, safer care.
• Karma yoga needs boundaries. Service without self-regulation fuels burnout. Pair tapas with rest, supervision, and community—abhyāsa with vairāgya.

Practical micro-practices (try today)

• Joy audit (5 min): List three ordinary tasks. For each, name one sensory element you can savor (temperature of water while washing dishes, sound of leaves on a walk).
• Kośa check-in (2 min): Ask: What does my body/energy/mind/wisdom/joy need right now? Choose one small step.
• Walk as yoga (10–20 min): No metrics. Attend to breath cadence, ground contact, and horizon/sky—let attention, breath, and body cohere.

Resources mentioned

• Pātañjala Yoga Sūtra (as study companion during illness)
• Bhagavadgītā (as a source of resilience and meaning)
• IAYT-inspired standards and Israel’s modular specialty pathways (trauma, oncology, etc.)

About our guest — Chen Or Bach

Chen Or Bach blends cognitive/neuroscience training with decades of yoga practice and service. In Israel, she helped advance standards that enabled yoga and yoga therapy to integrate into mainstream healthcare, including rehabilitation settings (e.g., TBI). Now based in Boulder, she continues to teach, mentor, and model a life where all life is yoga.

Pull quotes

• “Once your attention, breath, and body are in the same place, the game changes.”
• “If one tool stops serving you, the tradition still has a thousand doors.”
• “I stopped ‘doing’ yoga and started being it—moment by moment.”
• “Standards aren’t red tape; they’re how we protect people.”

School of Integrative Health at NDMU: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health

Master of Science in Yoga Therapy at NDMU https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/yoga-therapy

 Explore NDMU’s Post-Master’s Certificate in Therapeutic Yoga Practices, designed specifically for licensed healthcare professionals.  https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/yoga-therapy/post-masters-certificate-in-therapeutic-yoga-practices

Try our Post-Bac Ayurveda Certification Program at NDMU: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/ayurveda/post-baccalaureate-ayurveda-certification

#IntegrativeHealth #HealthcareEducation #InterprofessionalEducation #GraduateSchool #NDMUproud #SOIHproud #SOIHYoga #SOIHAyurveda #NDMUYoga #NDMUAyurveda #SOIHGraduateSchool

Episode snapshot

Debbie Lamond (near London, UK) is a yoga teacher and yoga therapist specializing in support for people living with lymphoedema. After decades of personal practice and training with the British Wheel of Yoga, she blends breathwork, Yoga Nidra, gentle movement, self-care for the lymphatic system, and realistic habit tracking. This conversation feels like tea with a wise friend—practical, hopeful, and grounded in ahiṃsā, svādhyāya, and the steady courage of śraddhā.

What we cover

• Debbie’s path: yoga since 1994, why it offered something team sports and fitness didn’t—time, calm, and coming home to self.
• Lymphoedema support, plain language: why movement, hydration, skin care, and compression are foundations—and how yoga fits in.
• Breath changes the body: how diaphragmatic breathing helps down-shift sympathetic overdrive and, anecdotally, can ease night-time swelling enough to return to sleep.
• Yoga tools that help: slow rhythmic movement, Yoga Nidra for nervous-system recovery, present-moment awareness to interrupt “what-if” spirals.
• Manual Lymph Drainage (MLD): “open the drains,” then move—pair with water intake and gentle activity.
• Ayurvedic lifestyle touches: cooling choices when heat aggravates symptoms, morning light, toxin reduction, and a simple habit tracker.
• Agency and dignity: building a daily routine you’ll actually keep—this isn’t a quick-fix pill.

Practical takeaways (save/print)

• Three-minute reset: recline, elevate legs, one hand on belly; inhale gently through the nose, exhale a little longer; ~15–20 breaths. Notice if sensation and anxiety both dial down.
• Daily rhythm idea:

1. Brief self-MLD (as taught by a qualified therapist).
2. 10–20 minutes of gentle yoga or a short walk.
3. Hydrate and quick skin-check.
4. Yoga Nidra or guided rest later in the day if swelling or fatigue rises.

• Get support: work with a qualified lymphoedema therapist for compression, self-care education, and monitoring.

How yoga philosophy frames this work

• Ahiṃsā (non-harm): move/rest in ways that protect tissue and reduce irritation.
• Svādhyāya (self-study): track patterns—sleep, flares, foods, stressors—without judgment.
• Īśvara-praṇidhāna (surrender): accept today’s reality while practicing skillful effort.
• Together, these form a sustainable sādhana for long-term conditions.

Resources mentioned

• British Wheel of Yoga (for teacher standards and CPD)
• Lymphoedema Support Network (UK)
• Manual Lymph Drainage (find a qualified therapist)
• Yoga Nidra recordings for regulation and rest

Who this episode is for

People living with primary or secondary lymphoedema; those post-treatment or post-surgery; clinicians curious about integrating breath and gentle movement; yoga therapists seeking condition-specific insights.

About our guest

Debbie Lamond is a UK-based yoga teacher and yoga therapist focusing on lymphoedema support. She offers one-to-one sessions (including online), small therapeutic groups through a local cancer charity, and a complimentary 30-minute consultation to explore fit.

Connect with Debbie

Website: DebbieLamondYoga.co.uk

Initial consultation: 30 minutes, no charge (book via her website)

Disclaimer: This episode and show notes are for educational purposes only and are not medical advice. If you have new or worsening symptoms, seek qualified medical care promptly.

Plans of Study for NDMU Yoga Therapy

https://livendm.sharepoint.com/sites/Academics/SitePages/Yoga-Therapy-Plans-of-Study.aspx?csf=1&web=1&share=EeZhGMscDMFOl1Lk0PD6gOsBTxvKkWvbfjhHLmMMuNpLFw&e=ApOX4h&CID=45c542e6-5528-4c68-a8ac-5596fb4fc161

School of Integrative Health at NDMU: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health

Master of Science in Yoga Therapy at NDMU:  https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/yoga-therapy

 Explore NDMU’s Post-Master’s Certificate in Therapeutic Yoga Practices: Designed specifically for licensed healthcare professionals: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/yoga-therapy/post-masters-certificate-in-therapeutic-yoga-practices

Try our Post-Bac Ayurveda Certification Program at NDMU: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/ayurveda/post-baccalaureate-ayurveda-certification

#IntegrativeHealth #HealthcareEducation #InterprofessionalEducation #GraduateSchool #NDMUproud #SOIHproud #SOIHYoga #SOIHAyurveda #NDMUYoga #NDMUAyurveda #SOIHGraduateSchool

Episode Summary:

Amy sits down with therapist–author Erin Byron for a candid conversation that moves from Erin’s lived experience of trauma to the practical tools that help people feel safe in their bodies again. They explore how yoga therapy complements mental health care, why personalization matters, and how joy, play, and creativity support nervous system recovery. Midway, they wade into today’s hot topic: scope of practice and the identity of “yoga therapist.” Erin offers a clear, compassionate take on keeping sessions yoga-centered while collaborating across disciplines. They close with concrete, do-today practices and a peek at Erin’s free community gatherings and the Women’s Writers Collective in Yoga Therapy.

Guest:

Erin Byron, MA — psychotherapist, certified yoga therapist, author of Safety in the Body: Foundations in Mental Health Recovery through Yoga Therapy, Expressive Arts, and Neurophysiology; co-author of Yoga Therapy for Arthritis.

Key Topics & Takeaways:

• Coming home to self: How classical yoga practices (breath, relaxation, attention training) quickly shifted Erin’s stress and sleep in early practice.
• Neurophysiology 101: Why connection, co-regulation, and prefrontal cortex “thickening” matter for trauma recovery.
• Judith Herman’s 3-stage model: Safety & trust → reconnection with joy/identity → integration and contribution.
• Joy is not a bypass: Adding play, beauty, and expressive arts prevents rehearsing trauma and accelerates healing.
• Personalized yoga works fast: Tailoring asana, breath, mantra, and visualization to the individual often yields quick, embodied results.
• Scope & language: Keeping sessions yoga-centered (practice-forward) while naming scope clearly; how to redirect talk into practice without overstepping.
• The profession today: Why holding firm to “yoga therapy” as a distinct, skillful discipline matters—and how collaboration (not dilution) serves clients.
• Practical nugget: Small “yoga snacks” (e.g., a fear-soothing mantra + mudra) can shift state in minutes when practiced consistently.

Memorable Quotes:

• “Yoga didn’t change who I am; it taught me who I’ve always been.” — Erin
• “Do the hard work in the presence of joy—otherwise we just rehearse trauma.” — Erin
• “Bring the yoga only you can bring. No other field has these tools in this context.” — Amy

Resources Mentioned:

• Safety in the Body by Erin Byron (info and community updates via her newsletter/IG)
• Yoga Therapy for Arthritis (co-author Erin Byron)
• IG: @erinbyron.ma
• Newsletter & free twice-monthly community hour: sign up via her website (link in show notes)

Call to Action:

• Share this episode with a colleague who supports trauma recovery.
• Join the Women’s Writers Collective author spotlight 
• Leave a rating/review if this conversation helped you—your support grows the reach of yoga therapy.

Women’s Writers Collective in Yoga Therapy: monthly author spotlights & free book-club style events:

·        https://happy-back-yoga.teachable.com/p/the-yoga-therapy-book-club  

Plans of Study for NDMU Yoga Therapy

https://livendm.sharepoint.com/sites/Academics/SitePages/Yoga-Therapy-Plans-of-Study.aspx?csf=1&web=1&share=EeZhGMscDMFOl1Lk0PD6gOsBTxvKkWvbfjhHLmMMuNpLFw&e=ApOX4h&CID=45c542e6-5528-4c68-a8ac-5596fb4fc161

School of Integrative Health at NDMU: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health

Master of Science in Yoga Therapy at NDMU:  https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/yoga-therapy

 Explore NDMU’s Post-Master’s Certificate in Therapeutic Yoga Practices: Designed specifically for licensed healthcare professionals: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/yoga-therapy/post-masters-certificate-in-therapeutic-yoga-practices

Try our Post-Bac Ayurveda Certification Program at NDMU: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/ayurveda/post-baccalaureate-ayurveda-certification

#IntegrativeHealth #HealthcareEducation #InterprofessionalEducation #GraduateSchool #NDMUproud #SOIHproud #SOIHYoga #SOIHAyurveda #NDMUYoga #NDMUAyurveda #SOIHGraduateSchool

Episode summary

After losing her home, savings, and a 34-year marriage, pharmacist and integrative medicine leader Dr. Lisa Nezneski chose a different path: put herself first, grieve fully, and cultivate joy deliberately. In this candid conversation, we trace the arc from rupture to renewal—restorative yoga twice a week, twice-daily meditation, beach “walking meditations,” and the seven mindful questions that helped her rewire patterns. We also talk relationships after loss, somatic signs of awe, and how to make the “next right step” when you don’t know what’s next. This is a clear-eyed look at resilience, seen through yoga’s lens of abhyāsa (steadfast practice) and vairāgya (non-attachment): effort rooted in discernment, without clinging to outcomes.

Dr. Lisa Nezneski — Certified Mindfulness Meditation Teacher; board-certified pharmacotherapist; Reiki Master; poet and author of Grounded in Chaos: Leaning into Adversity, Learning Joy (2020; updated edition forthcoming). Former clinical pharmacist and hospital administrator; taught at Duquesne University; past Chief Clinical Officer at Schatz Clinical Services; founder of Healthy Mindful Self.

Website: lisanezneski.com

Key takeaways

• Choose self-priority without apology. Midlife caretakers often land last on their own list; reclaiming agency is the hinge of recovery.
• Practice over prediction. Twice-daily meditation + consistent restorative yoga created the conditions for healing—abhyāsa in action.
• Non-attachment reduces reactivity. “This is this day.” Meet what is, breathe three times, then respond—classic vairāgya.
• Somatic joy is real data. Tingling, goosebumps, softening—felt sense can signal alignment more reliably than analysis.
• The “next right step” is enough. Use simple inner tests (Lisa’s “speedometer” method) and adjust course—no catastrophizing.
• Relational healing is possible. Mutuality, gratitude, and playfulness can re-pattern partnership after grief.
• Hands calm the nervous system. Repetitive handcrafts (e.g., finger-crochet) function like mudrā/nyāsa—bottom-up regulation.

Resources

• Dr. Lisa Nezneski — lisanezneski.com
• Book — Grounded in Chaos: Leaning into Adversity, Learning Joy (1st ed., 2020; updated edition forthcoming)

Listener reflection (journal prompts)

• Where in my week do I practice abhyāsa without clinging to a result?
• What does my body feel like when a choice is a genuine “yes”?
• What micro-ritual will I use as my three-breath reset cue?

Call to action

If this episode helped you locate a little joy inside the storm, share it with one person who needs a steady hand. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us the one practice you’re committing to this week.

Plans of Study for NDMU Yoga Therapy

https://livendm.sharepoint.com/sites/Academics/SitePages/Yoga-Therapy-Plans-of-Study.aspx?csf=1&web=1&share=EeZhGMscDMFOl1Lk0PD6gOsBTxvKkWvbfjhHLmMMuNpLFw&e=ApOX4h&CID=45c542e6-5528-4c68-a8ac-5596fb4fc161

School of Integrative Health at NDMU: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health

Master of Science in Yoga Therapy at NDMU https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/yoga-therapy

 Explore NDMU’s Post-Master’s Certificate in Therapeutic Yoga Practices, designed specifically for licensed healthcare professionals. https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/yoga-therapy/post-masters-certificate-in-therapeutic-yoga-practices

Try our Post-Bac Ayurveda Certification Program at NDMU: https://www.ndm.edu/academics/integrative-health/ayurveda/post-baccalaureate-ayurveda-certification

#IntegrativeHealth #HealthcareEducation #InterprofessionalEducation #GraduateSchool #NDMUproud #SOIHproud #SOIHYoga #SOIHAyurveda #NDMUYoga #NDMUAyurveda #SOIHGraduateSchool

Episode summary

At 32, Marcia found a lump she assumed was “nothing.” It wasn’t. In quick succession came diagnosis (May 1998), surgery including mastectomy and reconstruction, and years of hormone therapy. The shock gave way to a long, messy recovery marked by anxiety, tears, and the fierce desire to “be there” for her two young sons. Yoga entered as a lifeline: first disciplined Iyengar classes that rebuilt physical strength and steadiness, then Aṣṭāṅga for rhythm, breath, dṛṣṭi, and mental focus, and eventually yoga therapy informed by the pañcamaya kośa model—meeting herself where she was, day by day.

Part two of Marcia’s story is even more tender: years later, her 15-year-old son, Alex, was diagnosed with high-grade osteosarcoma. Eight months of aggressive chemotherapy, limb-saving surgery, infection, and eventual amputation followed. Through sleepless hospital nights and fragile windows at home, Marcia leaned on simple, steady practices—breath, gentle movement, and the sacred ordinary of hanging laundry in the sun. 

Key themes

• The long arc of recovery: Treatment can be quick; integration takes time. Yoga created structure (set sequences, five-breath holds) that translated into emotional steadiness.
• From outer strength to inner ease: As physical stability returned, so did mental clarity and emotional regulation—sthira-sukham āsanam (PYS 2.46) in action.
• Rituals of the ordinary: In crisis, simple routines (breathing, gentle stretches, even doing the wash) become anchors of meaning and regulation.
• Pañcamaya kośa self-check: How am I—body, breath/energy, mind, personality/values, and meaning? Let practice be responsive, not rigid.
• Caregivers need care: Five minutes of breath can change the nervous system—and the day.
• Post-traumatic growth: Agency (“this diagnosis won’t define our life”) and community support foster resilience.
• Yoga therapy in oncology: Practical tools for survivors and families; thoughtful scope of practice and team-based care.

Memorable moments

• “I was angry at the interruption to my life—I didn’t want cancer to stop me from living my dharma.”
• “The set sequence and five breaths made Aṣṭāṅga meditative; my body knew what came next, and my mind could rest.”
• “Hospital life means not moving, not sleeping, not eating well. At home, a decent meal, a real bed, and a few breaths on the mat felt holy.”
• “Supporting my son after amputation, I realized the PT’s ‘Superman’ was Śalabhāsana—the same human body, different language.”

Practical takeaways (for listeners)

• Structure regulates: A consistent class or home sequence can downshift anxiety; predictability is medicine.
• Five-breath rule: Linger in postures long enough to feel the pose regulate the breath (and vice versa).
• Honor seasons: Your practice can be Iyengar-precise one season, Aṣṭāṅga-rhythmic the next, and kośa-guided thereafter. That’s yoga.
• Caregiver micro-practices work: Three minutes of diaphragmatic breathing between scans or consults matters.

Who this episode supports

• People navigating or recovering from cancer
• Parents and caregivers living in medical systems
• Yoga teachers/therapists seeking oncology-informed, nervous-system-first approaches
• Anyone rebuilding identity and routine after a health crisis

About Marcia Mercier

• Website: www.marcie.yoga.com
• Location: North London (UK)
• Offerings:
• Weekly online Yoga for Breast Cancer (Wednesdays 09:30–10:30 UK)
• 1:1 Yoga Therapy (online & in person)
• Haṭha and Vinyāsa classes (online and local studios)
• Contributor with Get Me Back—a cancer-recovery community offering strength training, yoga, Pilates, and on-demand classes (getmeback.uk)

Resources mentioned

• marcie.yoga — contact and class schedule
• Get Me Back (UK): membership and on-demand support for people post-treatment

Host reflection

Marcia’s story is a fierce testament to the human spirit yoked to practice. In yogic terms, she modeled tapas without self-punishment, svādhyāya without self-absorption, and praṇidhāna without passivity. This is what it looks like when philosophy leaves the page and enters a hospital ward, a nursery, a kitchen, and a yoga mat. Healing is not linear; it is rhythmic—breath by breath, five breaths at a time.

Connect with The Yoga Therapy Hour

• Website: TheOptimalState.com
• Instagram & LinkedIn: Optimal State Yoga Therapy
• Subscribe, rate, and share if this helped you or someone you love.

Content note & disclaimer

This episode includes personal experiences with cancer and hospitalization. Yoga therapy is complementary and not a substitute for medical care. Please consult your healthcare team before beginning or modifying any practice.

Episode summary

Author and teacher Philip Goldberg returns to unpack his new book, Karmic Relief (Monkfish). We cut through pop-karma clichés and ask the hard questions: Why do bad actors prosper? What about innocent suffering? Does “what goes around” really come around—and when? Phil offers a clear, practice-ready model grounded in Yoga and Vedānta: karma as lawful cause-and-effect, refined by intention (saṅkalpa) and awareness (svādhyāya), and lived through skillful action (kriyā/karma-yoga). No sugar-coating—just a compassionate, accountable path forward.

About our guest

Philip Goldberg is the author of the classic American Veda and many other works on India’s wisdom traditions. He writes, teaches, and speaks internationally about the practical application of yoga philosophy in modern life. More at philipgoldberg.com.

What we cover

• Two default frames that fail: cynical materialism (“life’s unfair—deal with it”) and a punitive theism that outsources justice—why yoga offers a third way: karma as a law of nature, not a cosmic scorekeeper.
• Intention matters: why the motivation and quality of mind behind an action shape its consequences—on us and on the field around us.
• It’s not linear: why “instant karma” is the exception; most effects are complex, delayed, and braided with other people’s actions.
• Not just the “bad stuff”: noticing beneficial returns—friendship, support, opportunities—as karma, too.
• Humility as the doorway: we can’t fathom every cause; we can act skillfully anyway.
• Prevention is practice: building a karmic “balance sheet” through ethical living, steady practice, and timely amends reduces the sting when old debts come due.
• Forgiveness begins at home: how self-forgiveness and sincere amends interrupt the “slow acid drip of regret.”
• Prayer, Bhakti & nervous system: prayer as practice for the prayer-giver (bhakti), shifting state and making right action more likely.
• Yama–Niyama as method, not morals: using the first two limbs practically to uproot harmful samskāras rather than memorize rules.
• Boundaries are dharma: over-giving and “doormat karma” as the near-enemy of compassion; why healthy limits are part of right action.

Practical takeaways 

1. Choose skillful action now. You can’t rewrite yesterday’s causes; you can stack better conditions today.
2. Mind the motive. Before you act, ask: What’s my real intention? Adjust there.
3. Make clean amends. Own your slice only, sincerely, and repair what you can. Then change the behavior.
4. Practice = prevention. Daily āsana–prāṇāyāma–dhyāna clears the field (samskāra hygiene) so wise choices come faster.
5. Measure by learning. Treat consequences as feedback, not verdicts. If the same pattern repeats, a lesson is waiting.

Selected quotes

• “Karma is closer to physics than to theology—causes and conditions, not a personality keeping score.”
• “If you dismiss suffering as ‘their karma,’ that response becomes your karma.”
• “Humility matters: we can’t trace every cause, but we can choose wisely now.”
• “Boundaries are part of compassion—virtue misapplied becomes a near-enemy.”

Resources & links

• Karmic Relief by Philip Goldberg — Monkfish (now available).
• Philip Goldberg’s site: philipgoldberg.com
• Also by Phil: American Veda (context for how Eastern wisdom seeded the West).
• Related Yoga Therapy Hour episode: Our first conversation with Phil on American Veda (link in feed).

Interested in advancing your own studies in Yoga Therapy and Ayurveda?

Explore these graduate and certificate programs at Maryland University of Integrative Health (MUIH):

• Master of Science in Yoga Therapy
• https://muih.edu/academics/yoga-therapy/master-of-science-in-yoga-therapy/
• Post-Master’s Certificate in Therapeutic Yoga Practices (for licensed healthcare professionals)
• https://muih.edu/academics/yoga-therapy/post-masters-certificate-in-therapeutic-yoga-practices/
• Post-Baccalaureate Certificate in Ayurveda
• https://muih.edu/academics/ayurveda/post-baccalaureate-ayurveda-certification/

Plus, join us on our Optimal State Mobile App for daily check-ins and simple, easy interventions to help you stay in balance.

And explore our Online Community, where you’ll receive weekly classes and gain access to a library of classes you can enjoy anytime. Learn more at www.AmyWheeler.com.

Guest: Danielle De Pillis, MS Neuroscience, C-IAYT (12 Petals Wellness)

Danielle De Pillis joins Amy from South Minneapolis for a clear-eyed conversation about chronic pain, interoception, and why “sending someone to yoga class” is not the same as yoga therapy. Danielle traces her arc from high-pressure ad agency life into a years-long recovery that rewired her relationship with her body—then back into graduate study in neuroscience at King’s College London to understand the brain networks behind what she and her clients were experiencing. This is a grounded dialogue where ancient yoga maps (kośas, guṇas, abhyāsa/vairāgya) meet modern neuroscience and trauma-informed care.

Listen for

• How chronic sciatic pain (without injury) resolved through tiny, breath-led movements and attention training
• Why interoception (insula-based networks) is the missing link across PTSD, anxiety, depression, addiction, and eating disorders
• The limits of protocols: why yoga therapy must meet the person—not the diagnosis
• Practical strategies for “sitting is the new smoking” workplaces
• Using Yoga Nidra and micro-practices to “bring a region back online” and rebuild brain–body connections
• Trauma-informed considerations for healthcare and why telehealth lowers barriers for clients with PTSD

Key ideas & takeaways

• Pain is a messenger, not a verdict. When we treat it like data, we can adapt habit loops (workload, sitting time, emotional patterns like anger), not just tissues.
• Attention before ambition. Danielle’s recovery hinged on “microscopic movements, breath, mudrā, and curiosity”—a living example of abhyāsa (steady practice) and vairāgya (non-grasping).
• Interoception is foundational. Many clients say “I’m fine” until they close their eyes and notice otherwise. Building interoceptive literacy (Yoga Nidra body scan, slow breath, graded exposure to sensation) is therapy.
• No one-size-fits-all. Back pain, for example, can stem from different drivers (biomechanical load, overthinking/rumination, shock/trauma, life stress). Assessment across the pañca-maya kośa clarifies which lever to pull first.
• Healthcare and gym yoga. A doctor’s “try yoga” often misfires; yoga therapy (or therapeutic yoga) individualizes, paces, and is trauma-informed.
• Maintenance is the path. Bodies require lifelong tending. Danielle uses movement “snacks,” nature walks, and between-client resets—little choices that keep systems regulated.

Practical practices mentioned (try these)

• Micro-movement + breath: Choose one joint/region that feels “offline.” Explore 1–2 minutes of tiny ranges with smooth nasal breath and curiosity. Stop well before pain.
• Yoga Nidra, targeted: If you consistently “drop out” during a specific body region, create a 10-minute Nidra just for that side/area to rebuild signal.
• Workday resets: Every 45–60 minutes, stand, walk a block, or do 2–3 shapes while the kettle boils.
• Green-space therapy: Daily time in nature to shift autonomic state toward safety and restoration.

Memorable quotes

• “Attention is where it’s at. People say ‘mindfulness,’ but what changed me was attention—and curiosity.” —Danielle
• “What got disconnected along the way? That’s the puzzle yoga therapy helps clients solve.” —Amy
• “We’re not treating a protocol; we’re meeting a person, this week.” —Danielle

About our guest

Danielle De Pillis is a yoga therapist and neuroscience-informed practitioner based in Minneapolis. She holds a Master’s in Neuroscience from King’s College London and runs a global online private practice focused on trauma, chronic pain, and interoception.

• Website: danielledepillis.com

Interested in advancing your own studies in Yoga Therapy and Ayurveda?

Explore these graduate and certificate programs at Maryland University of Integrative Health (MUIH):

• Master of Science in Yoga Therapy
• https://muih.edu/academics/yoga-therapy/master-of-science-in-yoga-therapy/
• Post-Master’s Certificate in Therapeutic Yoga Practices (for licensed healthcare professionals)
• https://muih.edu/academics/yoga-therapy/post-masters-certificate-in-therapeutic-yoga-practices/
• Post-Baccalaureate Certificate in Ayurveda
• https://muih.edu/academics/ayurveda/post-baccalaureate-ayurveda-certification/

Plus, join us on our Optimal State Mobile App for daily check-ins and simple, easy interventions to help you stay in balance.

And explore our Online Community, where you’ll receive weekly classes and gain access to a library of classes you can enjoy anytime. Learn more at www.AmyWheeler.com.

In this rich and heartfelt conversation, Amy Wheeler sits down with Canadian yoga therapist and author Leila Stuart to explore her life’s journey through yoga, Ayurveda, chronic illness, and the groundbreaking field of experiential anatomy.

Leila shares how yoga first saved her as a 19-year-old in debilitating back pain, again when chronic fatigue and inflammatory arthritis nearly ended her career, and finally when Ayurveda and Panchakarma restored her vitality. Through these challenges, she developed a unique approach to anatomy—one that goes beyond memorization to help people truly feel their bodies from the inside out.

Together, Amy and Leila unpack the profound role of interoception (the ability to sense internal states), the therapeutic power of somatics, and the importance of teaching anatomy as a lived experience. They also discuss the “golden thread” that guides each of us toward our dharma—even in times of suffering.

This episode is both a personal healing story and a teaching in embodied practice, offering hope, inspiration, and practical insights for yoga therapists, teachers, and anyone seeking wholeness.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• The difference between therapeutic yoga and yoga therapy
• How yoga and Ayurveda supported Leila through back pain, chronic fatigue, and arthritis
• The concept of experiential anatomy and why it’s transformational for students and practitioners
• How interoception and somatic awareness rewire the brain-body connection
• Gentle ways to support people who feel “numb” or disconnected from their body
• Why beauty, simplicity, and embodiment matter in both healing and teaching
• The importance of finding your dharma—and how it can become a pathway to healing

About Leila Stuart

Leila Stuart is a yoga therapist, somatic movement educator, and author dedicated to bringing experiential anatomy to the forefront of yoga therapy education. She is the co-author of Pathways to a Centered Body (with Donna Farhi) and author of The Anatomy of Yoga Therapy. Her work blends deep anatomical knowledge with embodied practices that reconnect people with their inner wisdom. Learn more at leilastuart.com.

Resources Mentioned

• Pathways to a Centered Body by Donna Farhi & Leila Stuart
• The Anatomy of Yoga Therapy by Leila Stuart
• Leila’s website for workshops, resources, and writings www.leilastuart.com

Learn with Amy Wheeler

• Master of Science in Yoga Therapy – MUIH
• Post-Master’s Certificate in Therapeutic Yoga Practices
• Post-Baccalaureate Ayurveda Certification

Stay Connected

• Join our Optimal State Mobile App for daily check-ins and simple interventions
• Explore our Online Community with weekly classes and a growing library at www.AmyWheeler.com
• Follow The Yoga Therapy Hour podcast wherever you listen

In this heartfelt conversation, Amy Wheeler sits down with Shabana Safdari, yoga therapist, teacher, and founder of Yoga with Shabana, based in Bangalore, India. Shabana’s journey into yoga began with a deeply personal health scare when her mother was diagnosed with breast cancer. Faced with anxiety and fear, she turned to yoga—first for her own healing, and eventually as a lifelong path of service.

Shabana shares:

• How a health crisis transformed her relationship with her body and inspired her to take charge of her wellbeing.
• Her experience of nesophobia (fear of illness) and how yoga helped her move from anxiety to resilience.
• The life-changing impact of yoga therapy on her vertigo, and why she committed to making it her profession.
• The importance of intention in yoga practice and teaching, and how acts of kindness are integral to true healing.
• Her philosophy of simple, sattvic living—fresh food, fresh breath, and fresh thoughts—as the foundation of wellness.
• The role of prāṇāyāma as a bridge between ancient wisdom and modern science, and why she believes it is the most powerful tool for transformation.
• How she combines yoga therapy, prāṇāyāma, and sound healing in her signature Rest Reset Method to help clients manage stress, recover from burnout, and rediscover joy.

Throughout the episode, Shabana emphasizes that yoga is not just postures—it is a holistic system of mindset, lifestyle, compassion, and self-regulation. Her clarity, kindness, and lived wisdom shine through, offering listeners a reminder that true yoga begins with simplicity and intention.

Connect with Shabana:

Find her on LinkedIn at Shabana Safdari (search Yoga with Shabana). Her website will be launching soon, featuring her offerings, including one-on-one yoga therapy, corporate wellness programs, and sound healing.

Interested in advancing your own studies in Yoga Therapy and Ayurveda?

Explore these graduate and certificate programs at Maryland University of Integrative Health (MUIH):

• Master of Science in Yoga Therapy
• https://muih.edu/academics/yoga-therapy/master-of-science-in-yoga-therapy/
• Post-Master’s Certificate in Therapeutic Yoga Practices (for licensed healthcare professionals)
• https://muih.edu/academics/yoga-therapy/post-masters-certificate-in-therapeutic-yoga-practices/
• Post-Baccalaureate Certificate in Ayurveda
• https://muih.edu/academics/ayurveda/post-baccalaureate-ayurveda-certification/

Plus, join us on our Optimal State Mobile App for daily check-ins and simple, easy interventions to help you stay in balance.

And explore our Online Community, where you’ll receive weekly classes and gain access to a library of classes you can enjoy anytime. Learn more at www.AmyWheeler.com.