Roland Woodward is a chartered forensic psychologist and has more than forty years’ experience of working in the criminal justice system, most of it within the prison service. Roland worked at HMP Grendon and has also managed the psychological services at HMP Gartree where he opened the first therapeutic community for life sentence prisoners. Following that he was the first Director of Therapy at the Dovegate prison therapeutic community which has 200 residents in five different communities. In this conversation he describes his beginning at the young offender's prison Glen Parva and how he learned about therapeutic communities from Judy Mackenzie before moving to HMP Grendon to be 'deconstructed'. This is an amusing and vivid account of his time from being a 'junior' psychologist to creating a major treatment facility at HMP Dovegate and the way that his philosophy developed and influenced his policy decisions