2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

We were a bit split on this second request to come from our Patrons – Tobe Hooper’s spooky carnival film that led to Poltergeist. As Craig says about his childhood carnival experience: “They just look run down and they’re just held together with spit and shoe polish… it’s like a miracle that I’m not dead.”

Well, quite a few people end up dead in this movie, but not from the rides. Check it out and let US know what you think!

The Funhouse (1981)

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. Well, as we said last week is time for requests, and we put to our patrons a small poll of a few movies, I think four that, uh, we were kind of interested in doing from that request list that we maintain. And, uh, the poll gave a tie to two things.

Uh, the first one that we did last week was, Um, God. The initiation. 

Craig: The Initiation. We just did that like a few days ago. 

Todd: Unforgettable film, the Initiation. And uh, this week is Toby Hooper’s, The Fun House. This is from 1981, and I believe it was his first studio picture after, well, he did Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

He did one called Eaton Alive, um, which I saw long time ago. I don’t think I’ve seen that. I remember being pretty weird. But then there’s this one, the Fun House, which seemed to get a very wide release. Wow. I, so I had seen the cover art for this movie on the shelves. And, uh, the concept is interesting to me, right.

Like horror, a fun house. Mm-hmm. Really in this one, I, I think it’s less of a fun house, more of a haunted house. I think you would call it like a ghost ride, I guess. Yeah. In a, in a carnival. I don’t know. I suppose I’m not gonna dick around with terminology, but Yeah, I had not seen it before today actually.

And, uh, that’s that You’ve seen this before though, Craig, right? Yeah. It surprises me 

Craig: that you haven’t, I don’t know, I probably saw it when I was in college or graduate school, but rented. I don’t remember either the VHS or the D V D from the video store. The cover art is creepy. You know, kinda like a creepy clown kind of popping out at you.

But I think it was the name. Toby Hooper. That drew me to it. Yeah, because I am a fan. Like, you know, he did Texas Chainsaw and then just, what, a year or two after this, he did Poltergeist, which is one of my favorite movies. Like, I love that movie. So I think I was just drawn to that. I don’t know, I didn’t know what to expect.

I, I know that I’ve seen it at least once. I think I’ve probably seen it. Nah, that’s a lie. I know I’ve seen it at least a couple times, but I was happy to revisit it for this, you know, when I just watch movies f for myself, like, I’m not worried about anything. I’m not thinking about much. I’m just watching the movie.

When I watch movies for the podcast, I’m really paying attention. Like I, I’m trying to pay attention to the cinematography and the score and all of those different elements. That we might want to talk about. Um, so I was excited to watch this again, to pay attention to those things. And I’m glad I did. And I just based on your tone of voice, I feel like you didn’t like it.

Yeah. 

Todd: I found the movie Maddening. I have so many notes who are like, why in the world is this happening? Why aren’t they moving? There’s just so much in here that doesn’t make sense from the motivations of the characters to why they stand in place and scream for five minutes instead of actually do something.

And it’s almost, honestly, I’m kind of surprised that. This is Toby Hooper, cuz the guy’s good. He makes good movies, but I wonder if he didn’t get into a little rut there in the beginning where he just kept going back to the kind of crazy hillbilly or crazy weird twisted family thing. Uh, that’s what Eaton the live kind of was.

Obviously that’s what Texas Chainsaw Massacre was. And this one, it’s just, it’s kind of the same. It’s this crazy Carney family that, you know, is terrorizing these people. And just like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, I, I feel like he spends a lot of time on the pain of females, women screaming and crying with their mascara going down, being menaced by somebody.

And it, it’s really uncomfortable and it’s very effective in the Texas Chainsaw massacre. Like really effective. You feel so bad for that woman. And then you hear some of the backstory of how, you know, how he was shooting it. And it’s like, it was pretty miserable for that actress as well. And so, I couldn’t help but feel shades of that here, except the production is slicker.

Mm-hmm. Everything’s a little lighter in tone. Yeah. Everything is almost, I, I hesitate to say it just has shades of a kid’s movie. Yeah. If it weren’t for some of the gore and a couple of the small things that happened in here, it feels like a kid’s movie. Yet we get these long, uncomfortable scenes of just woman screaming, like in pain and in panic, or somebody like menacing him.

And then like, in one of these scenes, this woman’s gotta say some awful things to this guy to try to get her to, to leave her. Uh, you know, and, and I, it just tonally it’s off for me. And also it just, Like not realistic. Like of course, you know, we talk about where’s the line, right? Most of the movies we watch are not realistic.

Of course in the horror movies, everybody runs upstairs when they should be going out the door. But this movie had a hell of a lot of that in it. Yeah. And it got annoying by the end of it. Like, why is this person standing in place? Why are they not doing the obvious thing? And I think I was so distracted by those things that um, I got kind of bored.

I just, I tuned off, I turned off a little bit. And that’s a shame because actually I think the movie, like I said, it’s well made. It’s got some interesting things in, it’s got some interesting cinematography. It kind of bounces between really good inspired cinematography and really bland stuff. And then the final sequence, oh, I know we’re gonna get to all this, but my God.

The final sequence. I’m just looking at my watch. Is this over yet? Am I supposed to be terrified and, and I’m watching, I, I read a, a review online, a couple reviews online that were just so glowing about this movie, contemporary Reviews, you know, there was saying, and the utter edge of your seat, nail biting, ending.

That was not where I was. I was laying half down in the sofa, buried under cushions by the end of the, well, watching the ending of this movie and, and couldn’t wait for it to be done. So I don’t know. That sounds very uns charitable, but we’ll see. We’ll see once we pick it apart and walk through it. Yeah, no, 

Craig: I, I didn’t hate it.

Uh, and I should have, because once again, our wires got a little bit crossed and I thought we were doing this 12 hours from now, so I ended up having to get up at seven 15 this morning to watch this movie. Like I don’t get up at seven 15 in the morning in the summertime period. And certainly not like to get up to watch a movie.

So I should have been like, in a bad mood and not enjoying myself. I think really, uh, you’re not wrong about. The story, but uh, and, and, and I think the fact that I have like a half a page in notes, whereas usually like I have to struggle to keep it to a page. Cuz not a whole lot happens. But I mean, it’s a story about some quote unquote, Teenagers who spend the night in a shady carnival funhouse, and like, bad stuff happened, like murderers and, and stuff.

Like, I don’t know. I’m not expecting, 

Todd: I know you’re not a lie dickens, right, Dick. You know, but I just want to be engaged with it, you know? And I didn’t, I just kind of got disengaged after a while cause I was scratching my head so much. I feel like sadly there isn’t a lot that I could find about this movie.

Like, the details, like, I think the trivia is pretty light on I M D B. The Wikipedia page is pretty light. Yeah. Um, I have to feel that this movie got chopped up a bit. I don’t know, it feels like there are whole scenes that I, I don’t know why they’re there. And there’s kind of like, sort of threads that just, uh, uh, like everything with Joey and his parents.

Yeah, that was weird. It just baffled me, right? That it’s just bizarre. 

Craig: I wanted that to be something. It, it felt like it was going somewhere. It felt like, um, movies from our childhood that had those kinds of rambunctious kid characters. Like I thought that Joey was going to somehow become involved in the main plot, but he doesn’t like, like there’s this, this whole setup.

You know, he’s following his sister who’s on a date, a double date at a carnival or whatever, and he’s following her and he kind of sees some of the shady stuff that’s going on, but it never leads anywhere. Like, he eventually, he eventually just gets, I don’t even, what 

Todd: happens to him? They, well, they keep popping back to Joey as though.

You know, this is the kind of thing you do when it’s like, oh, the cops are coming. Are they gonna find them in time? Or is this gonna be their salvation? They are staying the night in this fun house. He doesn’t know that they’re doing it, but he seems to think that maybe they are. It’s very unclear because it’s like he sees, I think he sees them go in 

Craig: and not come out.

Todd: Them not come out. And, and to be clear, this is not a fun house like you and I when, when you think of a fun house, right? In Carnival, it’s something you walk through and there are mirrors, right? And it’s, this is like a dark ride. Is what it is. So there’s a track and there are cars and you go into it and it’s very, very spooky.

And then, you know, kind of circles around and comes back. These are usually, they look way cooler than they end up being. You give these cuz it’s like all fits within like a, a one trailer, you know, one one trailer. Trailer of a tractor trailer. Trailer. I know. They’re so shitty usually, but God, they look so exciting when you, when you’re standing outside and you see the giant facade.

Nevertheless, this supposed traveling carnival in Iowa has a fun house that they must have come there. Uh, I don’t know, a year before to set up they had to dig some foundation. Oh right. They had to pour concrete. They have a lower level underneath it where people are living in, they’ve got tunnels underneath with venting and, and then way too much machinery.

Yeah. It’s like a warehouse. It’s huge. Oh my God. And there’s a second floor apparently. I mean, It, it’s pretty ridiculous. But you, you just suspend your disbelief for that, I guess you have to do. Otherwise, it wouldn’t actually be that interesting. 

Craig: Right. So I’m happy to see you. Well, because in real life, I mean, God, there are so many things I, I think maybe partly I’m just kind of nostalgic for this because it reminds me of a different time, like Yeah, I 

Todd: know what you mean.

I live in 

Craig: rural Missouri and these types of like smarmy carnivals. Yeah. Came through here. Yeah. At least once a year and 

Todd: they’re so fun. Yeah. 

Craig: Like when I was a kid, like I wouldn’t go near one of those today as an adult, like. I, I, no, I mean, I don’t know. I’m sure there are regulations and stuff. Y you know, the, the, it’s, they still come here every year, but go, like, thinking back when I was a kid, it was like, you see in the movies, like they just look run down and like they’re just held together with spit and shoe polish.

Like when I was a kid, I just thought it was the coolest thing and writing those rides that it’s like a miracle that I’m not dead because Right. God, I have so many good stories. First of all, that, uh, you’re right. It’s not what I would consider a fun house. I think like fun house mirrors and like, you know, the shaky floor and stuff like that.

That’s, that’s a fun house. Fun. Right. But this would be, you know, it would be like the House of Horrors and you would sit just like in a little. Buggy, you know, on, on a rail and it would take you through and silly animatronics and stuff like that. I, I have actually no memory of this, but when I was a little tiny kid, my parents took me, uh, and, and my aunt and uncle and, and their kids, we all went to something, I don’t remember if it was an amusement park or a carnival like this, but I was so young, like maybe two or something.

And they sent me and my cousin Nick, who was a year older than me, they put us in one of these buggy cars to go through this house of horse. And they just waited for us outside. And again, I, I honestly have no memory of it, but there is a picture of us coming back out, like. Like cleaning to each other, like in, in a full body embrace, like screaming.

Oh, 

Todd: we were terrified. I mean, it was probably mostly dark inside. It probably lasted about 30 seconds, every few seconds or so that you’d trip some light that would come up probably and illuminate like a skeleton. Maybe one animatronic in the whole thing. They, they were usually pretty lame when you, when you went through ’em, but, uh, it’s been a lot in those, right?

Craig: It’s like a poor man’s, it’s a small world, you know, like it’s right. It’s super silly. Um, but man, even though I don’t remember that, like, just the picture makes me so happy and my parents. That’s so cool. My par I know my parents were cool parents. They, 

Todd: they were. And you were by yourselves. 

Craig: I know. It was awesome.

And then another story, uh, the, the janky carnival. Here in town. For some reason my mom took us, I, I don’t remember, maybe we were going to like see a concert or something and she’s like, you can go ride a couple rides or whatever. But it was kind of like cloudy, like a storm was coming in and so she was like, you can go like, you know, ride some rides or whatever, but I don’t want you to get on any of the big high rides cuz it looks like there’s a storm coming in.

And me and my sister were like, that’s fine, whatever. And then we went and I convinced my sister, like, sh she’ll never know. Let’s just go on, you know, one of these big tall rides. And we got on it, the storm like immediately rolled in, like lightning crashing all around us, me and my sister up. Like, I don’t know, two, three stories high in this thing.

Both of us crying and I just remember looking down and my mom’s had come to find us and she was standing down there with her arms crossed, just glaring at us. And I knew we were in so much trouble, but I loved those kinds of carnivals. So maybe I was just, uh, maybe I was just nostalgic for it. 

Todd: Well, I mean, I lo look, uh, the first few minutes of this movie, I really liked it.

It had promise. It was a little derivative, but it was fun. And it’s the kind of thing I like. You see this black gloved hand and this kid’s bedroom, and this kid is obviously really into horror and their masks and things on the wall and models and stuff and posters. And then there’s like real weapons like maces and apparently a knife and a sheath and all kinds of stuff on the wall.

And this black glove goes and grabs one of those knives out and a clown mask from the top and puts it on and it’s. Total copycat of Halloween. Yeah. Now you see through his eye holes and so we know it’s a kid. It’s, it’s totally fine. I liked it. And then cut to his sister, who I see in a bathrobe turning on the shower and I’m like, surely this girl is not gonna get naked because she looks way too young to have a topless scene in this.

And, uh, she does, uh, she takes her top off and I, she, she was 19. I looked it up. She was 19. 

Craig: Yeah. I was kind of shocked by that. I mean mm-hmm. Toby Hooper doesn’t shy away from anything. Um, but I was surprised four minutes in. What surprises me more is that that, uh, suggested to me that it was gonna be a certain type of movie that then it was not at all.

Like these are the only boobs you see in the whole movie. And the rest of it, I would say is, Pretty darn tame. Yeah. Like if someone were to make an argument for why it should be rated r I think I would have to concede, but there are really only a couple of things. For the most part it feels very PG 13.

Yeah. It’s not super gory. Yeah. There’s not a lot of nudity. There’s no sex. Like, no. The teenagers make out like, well, uh, after she’s already shown her boobs, Amy, later in the movie, like she makes out with her boyfriend and you can tell that she had her top open. But you don’t see anything. Even, even the, uh, kills and violence are, are not gory.

There’s a little bit of blood, but not very much at 

Todd: all. Yeah. They’re not as gory as we’re used to seeing. That’s true. And it 

Craig: almost feels like the, the violence in gore feel like the kind of stuff that you would see. In one of these horror houses or whatever, like, like a dummy with an ax in its head, like, right, that’s the kind of violence that we’re 

Todd: talking about.

That’s true. Well, I want to finish talking about this because there’s a, there’s a thing here that comes up later. So he, he approaches her and it’s total psycho like, uh, homage where he whips open the curtain and he goes in after her sister, but, and his sister, and then she holds his hand up and there’s this sort of struggle as the knife goes to her stomach and then it bends.

So it’s a rubber knife. And, uh, she screams at him, tears his mask out, chases him out into the hallway and gets him in a closet and yells at him and says, just for that, I’m not taking you to the carnival on Saturday. And while I’m there tonight, you think about this, I’m gonna get even with you. You’re not gonna know when or where, but I’m gonna get you so bad.

You’re never gonna forget it. Never. Alright. And I made a note of that. So she’s chatting with her parents downstairs and they’re just kind of watching television and, uh, they’re warning her not to go. She better not go to the carnival tonight because those carnivals are dangerous. And this very carnival, like some killer was there, somebody died, you know, when it was two little girls going 

Craig: to another town or something 

Todd: missing.

Yeah. Yeah. And she lies and tells em, oh no, I’m just going to the movies with my, with this guy Joey overhears it, it says like you were a liar. And then, uh, they end up at the carnival. So she piles in a car with, uh, A couple other people. Uh, it’s her and Buzz is her boyfriend, bad boy. Her 40 year old boyfriend.

Yeah, 

Craig: old. He’s supposed to, he’s supposed to be a teenager. I saw the actor was 30 when he played it. And he looks at least 30 

Todd: and she looks as 19 as she is. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. And then there’s Liz, her friend of the Blonde and Richie, the goofball. I guess he’s kind of the, I guess whatever. 

Craig: They’re just another couple.

I mean, they just seem like nice kids, like mm-hmm. None of them have any particular interesting qualities as characters. They just seem like nice, fun-loving kids going, you know, on a double date to the carnival. It’s, it’s cute. Yeah. And another reason that I thought that the Joey thing would amount to more is because.

He was such a cute kid. Like I was interested in, what was I, I wanted him to be more of a part of the movie. But did you I I haven’t my, did I recognize him? No. Should I have, yeah. 

Todd: Who was he? He was one, uh, I can’t remember the kid’s name. Uh, will or or the other one in Jim? I think Jim. Yeah. In something Wicked This way comes.

Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, that’s one of, that’s funny. It’s one of the few rolls he’s had. I think he’s only had three rolls. It was this one. Something Wicked This Way comes and something else, and that’s it. 

Craig: So this must have been before something wicked? Yes. I think. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah, that makes total sense.

Couple years. Super, super cute kid. 

Todd: Yeah. And then, and then what we get is just, um, and I, I don’t know, you know, I liked it. Uh, a whole bunch of carnival footage. Yeah. My 

Craig: notes say fun carnival stuff. 

Todd: Yeah. And I just like seeing that. And plus it’s classic carnival stuff. It’s like, like you said, old rides. I read that, that they just got bought out a whole bunch of rides from an old defunct carnival in Akron, Ohio.

And these rides were like from the forties and fifties, you know, so they’re not super modern, but they’re, they look fun. Yeah. They’re going around the merry-go-round and they’re doing the grab the ring thing, which I only heard about from my dad. I, I, I thought that wasn’t even a thing as, as we got older.

But, uh, when you’re riding around in the merry-go-round and there’s like a, a ring, like just kind of out of reach and you’re supposed to go out and try to grab it with your finger, did you ever do that? Did you ever see anything like that? 

Craig: No. But it’s like the central metaphor in Catcher in the Rye, so I’m very familiar with 

Todd: it.

Well, that’s true. You’re right. Yeah, you’re right. English teacher.

But at the same time, It’s almost comic. And this is why I said it sounds like an old mo, like a kid’s movie. It’s almost comical. There’s a comically weird old hag lady that just kind of, yeah, springs on the girls in the bathroom and it’s like God is watching you. He hears everything and there’s like old bummy type guy who we see just once or twice, it looks weird, stumbles into the girls at one point and you’re like, oh, is he gonna come back again?

Nah, not really. Nah. And then it’s just so dumb because every time they come to something new, Amy stops and like goes off into Lala land, like the carnival barker is going, you know, come inside, see the two-headed cows, see the freaks of nature. And she’s just staring at him and the music swells and it’s like he has her hypnotized and I’m like, Then, then somebody’s like, Hey Amy, you ready to go?

Oh, oh yeah. All right, here we go. And she does it for that guy and she does it for the Barker outside the adult dancing girls tent. And she does it just looking at the fun house. She does it looking at the Frankenstein guy, like, this happens like six times this same shot. Um, and I was like, come on. What, what?

What’s the deal with Amy? God, I 

Craig: don’t remember that specifically, but like what you’re talking about is what I think saves this movie. Like I think that it’s really stylistic. I see Toby Hooper in this movie, like sure, he shoots from interesting. Angles, he lights scenes in really interesting ways. Mm-hmm.

And watching this, I was like, yep, this is the guy who’s gonna make Poltergeist in a couple of years. It’s, it’s the same kind of creepy stuff like the, the scene in Poltergeist with the clown that attacks Robbie that could have been in this movie. Yeah. Like, it, it feels, I I, I just see, I don’t know, I I’m probably giving the movie too much credit cuz it’s not great.

I mean, it’s a really simple story and it’s especially, oh God, when we get to the villain, I, I villain I guess, is he, I don’t know. 

Todd: No, probably not. 

Craig: Not really. Kind of, not really. It, it, it gets a little silly and it is very simple, but I wasn’t bored because I was so visually interested in what I was seeing.

Most of the time, I don’t remember long shots of her, but I do remember really interesting shots of the props and the set 

Todd: pieces. Yeah. There’s a two-headed cow. There’s a giant fetus in a 

Craig: jar. I was fascinated like, I mean like they go into this freak show where the barker outside, by the way, there are like three different things.

There’s the Freak show, the Girly Show, and The Fun House. The Fun House, the Magic show. There’s also, right, and they each have their own barker and the Barker is played by the same guy. Yeah. I don’t think that I noticed that. Ever before. And, and I think that I only noticed it, uh, reading the trivia about it because the, the guy who took the role took it on the condition that he could play all of the Barkers.

And if you notice, it just kind of gives it kind of a surreal quality. I don’t know. I, 

Todd: I don’t know. It is surreal. I agree with you that it’s stylistic in its own way. It’s not artsy, stylistic, it’s just kind of Yeah. Typical Toby Hooper, honestly. Yeah. Eating the Alive, if I remember eating the Live, well, you’re gonna fricking eat that movie up because I remember it like this Times a hundred with just crazy ass lights, crazy ass camera angles, really, uh, odd, surreal things happening.

Uh, we should do that sometime, but I don’t know, for me, like, I was kind of ready for the action to start after a while. We’re like 30 minutes in and we spent a lot of time at the carnival and I, I maybe, I just feel like. And maybe I’m wrong, but I felt like he was trying to build this atmosphere as this carnival, as being this dangerous, scary place.

What the carnival that I saw was pretty normal. It’s kind of seedy. It’s, yeah, it’s rather silly. You know, there’s this magician in there who looks like Beetlejuice. He’s, he’s drinking during the performance. He’s not at all sinister, right. There’s, there’s a fortune teller and he goes to her and. Instead of this being your typical fortune telling scene where she gives some premonition about what’s about to happen.

Like she’s, you can see a reach under the table and flip a light off and, and then she gets angry because the kids are laughing at her. Ah, here you bra, bra. I

don’t come back, girl. Break every bone in your fucking bodies. Like these are very normal people. You know what I mean? Like they’re typical, honestly, typical Carnival people. Not 

Craig: really. I loved Madam Zena. Madam Zena was pretty awesome. And she is, she’s an Oscar nominated actress. I’m not kidding. Wow. Uh, in real life.

She is a Oscar nominated actress, and I looked at her, uh, I M D B page and she has tons of credits and I recognized a couple of things. She was in the one off the top of my head. She was in She Devil with Roseanne Barr and Meryl Streep. She, she played a character role in that. I recognize, I liked her and I, I liked this about it, that the Carnival people were stereotypical but also not necessarily portrayed as evil.

Correct. More just kind of like opportunistic and dealing with things as they. Happen, 

Todd: you know? Yeah. Like, and they have a bad day and they kind of lose their Exactly. Their face and Yeah. I mean, I, what I was really hoping was that these would all be setups with payoffs later. Right. It did occur to me, maybe the whole point of this was just to emphasize how normal this carnival is.

You know how it’s not an evil No. You know, sinister carnival and, and that must be the point. But we’re 30 minutes into this horror movie. We’re a third of the way through it. Yeah. Nothing horrible has happened. 

Craig: No. Yeah. It takes a while to get to anything. The carnival stuff, like the girly show, like, I enjoyed that.

That was fun to watch. Um, they, they just used, you know, of course, uh, strippers, um, local strippers, they hired to be in that. And it was cute and funny. And again, it, it calls that’s even before my time. I don’t know, maybe it was going on when we were kids, but not in my local carnival. There was not a girly show.

Um, but you know, it was a thing and yeah. I, I, why? Why do I have nostalgia for things that I didn’t even experience? Like it’s just like a different time. Like it just seems, it seems like such a more innocent time. You know, when, when 

Todd: this was your entertainment, 

Craig: husbands would come home from work at the factory and go see scantily clad girls, you know, like, 

Todd: I don’t know.

Right. Well, you’re a Midwestern boy too. And, and you know, you’ve lived in, you grew up in rural America. It’s true. And there isn’t a lot to do in rural America. And that was sort of the point. That’s very true. The traveling carnival, you know? Yeah. You, I guess they would come outskirts of cities, but the heart was in the heartland.

And, you know, this was when you get to see the, the promise of seeing things and experiencing things, you could maybe only see an experience once a year because you’re out in the middle of nowhere. 

Craig: So they’re bringing in these exotic Right. That’s why even like the, they, there’s literally a two-headed cow in this movie.

Yeah. And, and a, a cow with a cleft palate, which is. Surely unfortunate for that cow, but I was just, it, like, you, you don’t see stuff like this. I don’t know. There like, that added a certain reality factor and, and a certain, because it felt a little more real. It gave it a little bit more grit. Like I believe that this carnival exists.

Exists now. Yeah. So the guy who runs the interest, uh, entrance to the fun house wears a Frankenstein mask, and he’s featured prominently throughout this first part, not doing anything other than, you know, like letting people off and on the ride, but, I certainly got the feeling that this guy is gonna be important.

Significant, yeah. And the fact that he’s masked adds, you know, some level of mystery. But then it just, you’re right. It does just get stupid because Richie, one of the boys is like, Hey, I’ve got an idea. Let’s stay the night in the fun house. Why? Like, that is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. It 

Todd: doesn’t sound like fun at all.

Craig: No, it doesn’t sound like fun at all. You’re gonna have to sneak around, be quiet, cuz it’s not like the place is abandoned. You know, like the people who work. At these places. 

Todd: Live there. Stay there. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So 

Craig: you’re just gonna have to be quiet. Like, sure, it might be fun to make out in the fun house for an hour, but then what are you gonna do?

Todd: Right? Stupid. Yes. 

Craig: Stupid. But I do have like in bold, like I bolded it so I wouldn’t forget to say it. The movie looks better. Okay. I I. There. Let’s stay in the fun house. Next note. Definite Poltergeist vibe in the Fun House. Next note in Bold. This movie looks better than its time for 1981. I feel like this movie looks like it could have been made yesterday.

Like you think so? I think so. In terms of the cinematography, it’s clean. That’s true. Granted, this is earlier in the movie, when we start to get into the quote unquote monster. Different story does not look modern or contemporary at all. But up to this point, it just, I’m just really impressed with Toby Hooper.

I don’t really think of him. When I think of great filmmakers, I don’t immediately think, oh, Toby Hooper, but Steven Spielberg does. Yeah. And Steven Spielberg is considered one of the greatest filmmakers of our time. 

Todd: You know, he, he wanted Toby Hooper to direct. I 

Craig: know. Can you imagine? 

Todd: I can’t even imagine.

And he didn’t because he was busy on this movie. Right. 

Craig: Well, and then there’s the whole deal. We’ve talked about this before. It’s been a long time, but we’ve talked about it before. Toby Hooper directed Poltergeist, but people say all the time, really, Steven Spielberg directed it, but I don’t know. I, I believe that Toby Hooper directed it probably with a lot of help from his friend, which like great.

And I do see, uh, Spielbergian aspects in that movie, particularly when it comes to the relationships between the family. But, The movie looks like a Toby Hooper movie. It does. And I l again, it’s one of my favorite movies. I can’t believe we have done like seven. I was gonna say 700. That’s, that’s overshooting.

We’ve done like 300 and some episodes and we’ve never done Poltergeist. It’s one of my very crazy favorite movies. Crazy. I think it’s, I know, but I think it’s because I’m. I would never be able to stop talking about it, but the, I still think this movie looks great, at least up until this point. Um, and then my next note.

Excellent aerial shot of the carnival at closing. Yes. That’s really cool. Cool. There are some amazing crane shots in this movie, 

Todd: and that’s revisited later. But I, I, I also made a note about that. I think this is when Joey is alone there, the kids were already inside the fun house and, and Joey looks up at the fun house and is freaked out, and then suddenly the creaking man and came on top of it, scares him, and then suddenly the old hag ladies behind him and goes, boo.

And then he like, runs away and climbs a fence out of the place and, oh God, it’s so dumb. But anyway, then he decides, I dunno, break into a car. It’s so weird because whatever’s happening with Joey, we cut away from it right away and we go right back into the kids making out in the fun house. And maybe your screen was a little smaller than mine, but the, you could see her boobs again in there.

Oh, not that I was looking, but uh, they were there. Sure, boy. Of course not both of them. 

Craig: No, I was watching it on a computer 

Todd: screen. So as soon as they’re done making out, they hear something or they look down through the floorboards of this foot house and there’s somebody down underneath that turns out there’s a whole other level to this.

It must be. Underground. 

Craig: A basement. Yeah. At this traveling fun 

Todd: house. Traveling. Incredible. But anyway, there’s this, the guy with the Frankenstein mask on and, uh, he’s going to get some money and the, 

Craig: he doesn’t talk, he just mumbles. Madam Zena, you texted me. I, I had just started watching this movie and you texted me something about it and I, I don’t remember when I.

Said this to you, but I said, I only remember one scene. This was the scene. This is the one, this was hard. Forget this was 

Todd: the scene that I remember. Go ahead, you explain it. 

Craig: Well, I mean, it’s really kind of pathetic. Like you don’t know what’s going on with Frankenstein, but he doesn’t talk like, he only just kind of mumbles.

And he, and he kind of like Bumbles around, um, a little bit, but he’s like taking money out of the cash box. And at first he tries to give her a 20 and she’s like, no, that’s not enough. And he tries to give her a 50. Nope, nope, it’s not enough. And he finally gives her a hundred. And you figure out he’s paying her for sex.

But like once he gives her the money, they lay down on the floor together and she barely touches him. I don’t remember what she says. Uh, 

Todd: but she kind of starts jerking him off and then it’s like, oops. Oh, well I guess it happens to the best of 

Craig: us. Yeah. I don’t even know if he had gotten out of his pants yet.

Like, yeah, but he must have because she, like, she wipes her hand off, wipes her hand. It’s so 

Todd: gross. 

Craig: That’s the part that I remember now. I think that ultimately the reason that I, this, I just don’t know how to feel about this because after that I think he wants to try again or he wants the money back or something.

But she’s resistant and he kills her. Yeah. And the kids see all this, and then they, there’s a whole scene of them like running around trying to get out and apparently they can’t. And then in the next scene they end up exactly where they were before. Did you notice 

Todd: that? Yes. In the same poem was so weird.

Right? That’s why I thought there was some editing problems or maybe some, something changed in the editing with the, the script. Like why did these kids then hunker back down 

Craig: exactly where they were before, right? Yeah. Right above. I don’t know. Oh, okay. And, and Joey sneaks back in, like, I’ve got notes about Joey, but nothing happens with him.

No. He sneaks 

Todd: back into the carnival, that’s it. And now they’re, we’re back inside the fun house, which apparently has a second story. They’re like climbing around up and down stairs. I think they go back down and for some reason they think if they can cut through that room, they can find a way out. So they walk through it.

Uh, and then, like you said, they’re back in that spot. Uh, that’s when exact same 

Craig: spot right above the room. 

Todd: And that’s when the Barker comes in, uh, downstairs. So here’s the thing, he, this, this guy, when he kills this woman, pushes her up against an electric box, which makes it spark, okay. Right. And turns on all the lights, which were previously off inside there, and kind of makes all the animatronics go for a while.

But then, When he walks in, the lights are off, but up above where the kids are, they’re lit by all the stuff around them. 

Craig: It looks great. It’s a great shot. They’re 

Todd: like, I mean, that’s a great shot, but it doesn’t make 

Craig: sense. No, it doesn’t make any sense, but it looks great. They’re like in front of, uh, it looks almost like stained glass or something.

Yeah, like carnival lights behind them. Yeah. It doesn’t make any sense why they’re there, but it looks great. 

Todd: Yeah, it does. It’s a great tableau. I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna deny that at all. Well, he flips those, switch back on somehow and then he like looks around, he sees the girl and he goes, oh, you really did it this time.

You killed one of the family. And he starts slapping him around like crazy. And then he is like, oh, you know what? We’ll dump her somewhere and we’re gonna blame it on the locals. But then you paid her a hundred dollars. Jesus. I could have got you one of them 10 girls for 15. Yeah. You never did understand the value of a dollar, did you?

Craig: Yeah. I thought that was funny too. But when he is, when he is yelling at him and, and like punishing him or whatever, he, I don’t remember if he somehow the mask, the Frankenstein mask comes off. Mm-hmm. Uh, and you see that under that mask kind of inexplicably because the, the, the mask that he actual, like that is supposed to be, his actual face is like two times as big as the Frankenstein mask was.

So I’m not really sure how, how that fit over his face, but he’s got this monstrous face. You know, we, you and I talk about this, I, I, I don’t think a movie would, like this would even be made today. No. This, uh, was not at all uncommon, like monstrous, um, supposedly deformed. People being Right. Villains, uh, in movies.

Like I just, I, I think that our culture is just too sense. Like people would come out of the woodworks. He is a human being and it’s not his fault that Right. He was born that way. And like, I get it. Even, even me watching it, like I, I feel bad for him. Yeah. I, I, I like, I felt bad for 

Todd: this guy, but this guy crosses the line.

He’s almost like a vampire. He’s not just like a. I mean, he is deformed. Deformed, yeah. Oh yeah. Like, like he’s got yellow eyes that are bugged out. And like you said, his face is almost split down the middle and he’s, he looks 

Craig: very much like the cow. I, I, I definitely imagine that that was intentional. He looks very much like the cow that had the cleft palette.

Todd: He’s like a, a quote unquote freak. Right. Like a surface freak. Uh, really? And, uh, he’s like sloth in a way from goodies. Yes. But Right, but, and, and not even mean, but that’s the thing. 

Craig: Like he seems right. No, he just seems. Childlike and, and doesn’t know the appropriate way to deal with people, obviously. 

Todd: Yeah.

But in all this commotion, he’s like being, they finds out all the money’s missing. So he gets pissed. Uh, he’s like, didn’t, what? What did you do with the money? Where’s the rest of the money? And he flips out. They’re making all this noise. He’s torn his mask out, and in the meantime, one of the kids lighters falls on the ground from upstairs, and he hears that over the commotion that’s going on anyway.

All right, fine. It’s a movie. So he turns around, he discovers the lighter and looks up and realizes there must be somebody up there. And now the kids are in trouble. Oh, in the meantime, Joey’s outside prowling around a little bit more kind of bored. I’m thinking, oh, he’s gonna find a way in to the fun house.

Mm-hmm. And like, he’s gonna be their way out, or he is gonna meet up with them, or something’s gonna happen. Well, the doors are still locked from the outside, but he finds one of the flags in the front, which is draped over kind of the bottom skirt of it. He lifts it and there’s like a hole there. And when he starts to peer into the hole, that monster guy reaches out at him and, and he flips out.

And he backs up. He doesn’t come out, he just reaches out at him and then he backs into the old hag and a a bum. And one of the carneys grabs him anyway and whisks him away. Now we’re back to the kids inside. Right? Who by the way, it just, why did that, 

Craig: why did that happen? Well, I don’t know. And because I say he, he’s scared and he gets grabbed by Carney’s and then the only other thing that happens is like, they call his parents and his parents come get him and some, oh God, some weird guy like I, that scene that was whoever it was that called his parents, this guy that found him.

Why is Joey unconscious? 

Todd: Do, yeah, I have no idea. 

Craig: I don’t remember. I don’t, I have no idea. I don’t know. But this guy’s like, He’s like, I found him and I cleaned him up real nice and he is like stroking the kid’s face. Meanwhile, the kid’s parents are standing right there. I’m like, what is happening? Like, why is this weird guy stroking 

Todd: your child?

They think it’s as weird as we do clearly. And they’re like, well, I guess we’ll just take him home. But they’re not moving a muscle. Wouldn’t they by now have had him in their arms and been walking out to the car? I don’t know. It’s bizarre. It’s so weird. They’re just standing there staring. And like I said, there’s so many shots of Amy just standing and staring and we’re back to the kids inside the fun house and they’re making no great efforts to get out of this.

Well, they’re trying, but not really. They sit down, I mean, sit, the doors are like padlocks and stuff. Sit, chat with each other, like, I suppose. 

Craig: Well, at the, you know, I, I, I jumped a little bit ahead because by the time that Joey is being stroked by her creepo, Amy is like, they, they’re being chased around.

Like they’ve seen the monster, they’re being chased around and she tries to scream at her parents through an industrial fan and they can’t hear her. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s later, but yeah, it’s 

Craig: later. But, but what’s the, the, the Barker guy tells, do they ever call him Gunther? He’s credited as Gunther. Oh 

Todd: no. I never heard his 

Craig: name.

Never. I keep heard calling. It’s what I’m calling him is maybe I just made it up, but that’s what I’m gonna call him from now on. He the monster guy, uh, the Barker tells Gunther to kill the Kids’s. Like, he’s like, we’re just gonna clean this up, you know, kill them and we’ll dump ’em somewhere. We’ll get outta here or whatever.

And then I don’t understand some of the things that happened, like, like, you’re right. Like they’re just, the four kids are just like sitting around chatting. Yes. When from no. A noose. Drops, drops from the ceiling right onto Richie’s head, right. And 

Todd: hangs him, pulls him up into the r out of their reach, into the supposed rafters of this place.

Now this fun house is like two or three stories tall and has rafters so high up nobody can see. I, I, I just, unbelievable. 

Craig: I don’t even, I don’t get it. 

Todd: I, I don’t 

Craig: get it either. Um, um, and, and then I guess Buzz has an ax and they, they see somebody coming in one of the cars. He’s like, I got this. And he like, axes the, and it’s Richie, so he acts as Richie in the head.

So I, I, I assume Richie was already dead, right? I assume he was already dead. He’s just 

Todd: tied up on the car. 

Craig: This is just nutty, like, is like, are are they setting up these traps? Because 

Todd: then immediately out of nowhere, Liz just falls through a trap door. 

Craig: Like, and 

Todd: she’s just gone. Why in this fun house that is on a rail?

It is. It’s, it’s not a thing you can walk through. Why is there a trap door next to the railing that opens up and then closes and they they can’t, but they can’t open it up? No. Did somebody trigger that? I don’t know. Is it a tr like, do they do this all the time? Like it, it doesn’t make sense. It’s just silly movie stuff.

Well, they are a murderous carnival. No. 

Craig: The bark, the Barker guy does like, he, he says, To Gunther, like, you’re all the time getting in trouble or something. I’m all I have to clean up after you like those two girls back in, whatever. And they, they had said, you know, that these twin girls had gone missing after this carnival had gone through.

That’s why Amy Stad didn’t want them to go. So they do kill people sometimes, 

Todd: but, but the way, it’s not an HH Holmes situation where they deliberately set this thing up to hope that kids are gonna stay the night in here. No, they accidentally kill people sometimes, but it’s, it’s mostly set up. The way that he says it to ’em is because, well, this guy’s slow and he doesn’t know what he’s doing.

And just like he killed, um, the fortune teller, he’s killed other people too, and he’s gotta clean up after him. I don’t think it’s like, the idea is that the whole carnival thing is like, On this killing spree. 

Craig: No, no. That’s, that’s why I said just, you know, like every now and then they, they, they, you know, they have to take care of 

Todd: things and they do.

So now, and this was confusing now, uh, like you said, Joey wi outside with his parents staring at the fun house in a daze as they’re getting ready to leave and then outta nowhere comes his thoughts, which is, I’m gonna get even with you. I’m gonna get back at you so bad that you’re never gonna forget it.

Craig: Yeah. It felt, I, I, I had no idea what was happening. It felt like it was from a different movie. Like, I, I get it that it’s a callback, but what is he thinking? Is he thinking that this is some elaborate plot that his sister has put into motion? What’s the point I have? It doesn’t make no idea any sense. And it doesn’t matter because we never see him again.

We don’t. 

Todd: But yes. Which is annoying. I want you to 

Craig: talk about this next part because. You, you alluded to it earlier and I was surprised by the way that you alluded to it because, um, Liz who fell through the trap door, wakes up. I have no idea where this is supposed to be. This 

Todd: is supposed to be, is it, it looks, uh, it’s, it’s a narrow passageway with a bunch of pipes and things going down.

I dunno if it’s supposed to be like a ventilation system or I guess cause 

Craig: there’s a giant sub fan or 

Todd: there’s a giant fan at the end of it, and that’s where she is. And of course my first thought was, well just stop that fan. It looks like it leads outside. You can crawl out of it. She’s down there and she wakes up and suddenly around the corner is the monster guy and he’s coming towards her and she’s like, uh, crying and upset and begging and pleading for her life.

And she’s like, I I I heard that you like girls, like I can, I can do things for you. I, I won’t even make you pay. I It’s all right. You can. Oh my God, that was so painful. It’s disturbing. When you alluded to 

Craig: her to it earlier, like she says she has to say all these horrible things, then like, I didn’t think it was that big a deal.

Like she, she, I know you like girls, I could be nice to you. You won’t, you don’t even have to 

Todd: pay. As he’s coming towards her literal drool is coming out of his mouth on her. He’s leaning in close, he’s getting drool all over. He is wrapping his arm. He 

Craig: disgusting. But what does it, of course it say, what does it say about me that I felt more bad for him in this moment?

Well, 

Todd: he’s a sympathetic character for sure. Yeah. Like 

Craig: I understand that she’s doing what she has to do. Like she’s trying to, I, I understand what she’s doing, but from his point of view, a pretty girl is being nice to him. A pretty, 

Todd: a pretty girl. He is menacing is being to him, I suppose. Well, why else is he down there coming after?

Cause what? No, 

Craig: you’re right, you’re right. I’m reading. I, I’m, I’m, I’m reading too much into it, but I did, I I I felt bad for him. 

Todd: Like this poor guy. Well, there’s no question you’re meant to feel bad for him. He’s sort of like a Frankenstein. I mean, there’s probably no, no question why he’s got the Frankenstein mask on earlier.

Right. Right. That’s intentional. He’s supposed to be the, the sympathetic monster who just doesn’t know what he’s doing. But she, uh, somehow I guess she stab him. Yeah, I guess the, the, the dagger from knife got 

Craig: down knife that there with him just found, I don’t know. There’s just a knife around there. And, and then he kills her.

Like I Yeah, question mark. Uh, but you don’t really see it. You don’t really see it 

Todd: happen. No, actually it’s a cool angle where, You don’t see it, but you see kind of from above and her, it’s obscured a little bit, but then you see his hand raised a couple times and his fingernails are all bloody and yeah, it’s pretty clear she’s not gonna make it.

At the same time. Dumb ass. Amy is standing in front of a huge fan. I don’t know if this is another passage away. I don’t know how she, she got there, but this fan is apparently right smack dab on the front of the fun house, and it’s about half as tall as a person is, and she’s screaming out it at her parents who she can see out there.

Uh, but the fan is too loud so her screams are not carrying and they’re too far away to notice. Believeable once again, I was like, why would you not just grab something and stop that fan? Heck, I mean, the motor and the, the belt. It’s right there in front of you, like true. Get a pipe, get something like that’s your best way out, right?

That you’ve guys have found yet you stop that fan, you guys can crawl out there. Then she just leaves and they never come back to it. Yeah. I don’t know. Plus, I never saw that fan from the front of the building. I couldn’t figure out where the heck it could have been ever. I don’t know. And we get a lot of shots of the front of that fun house.

Craig: You’re right that it takes a long time to get to the action, but then this ending just happens so fast. Like Yeah. Uh, the Barker guy confronts Buzz and Amy with a gun and then Buzz and the Barker fight, and the Barker guy gets impaled on a giant sword. Why would there be giant swords that stick straight out, sharp enough to entirely a bail person?

Todd: It was a different time, Craig, those carnivals, their insurance would 

Craig: never approve that. And then, 

Todd: no, I love, but before he dies, I love what the Barker says cuz he has this long soliloquy about family and family’s important and blood a sticker than water. And he, he’s talking about his boy and he is like, and I’m sure he is gonna be a great comfort to me in my old age.

Oh yeah. That was funny. Really? Yeah. I don’t know if that was meant to be silly or what, but, uh, 

Craig: well, and then well, and then Gunther, the monster guys, you know, out of nowhere. Yeah. But he attacks out of nowhere and then like he and Buzz kind of tussle off screen, like we don’t see it and there are gunshots.

Oh. And then, and then dude, and then Buzz is dead and served up like on a, like a mechanical clown by animatronic clown. Hilarious. 

Todd: That was on the track. Suddenly I look. I’m sorry. I mean, Toby Hooper is great and he knows how to stage certain things. I don’t know if fight scenes are one of them because these two little tussles between the Kearney and Buzz and Gunther were lame.

Fair enough. There is a several moments in there where Buzz is just standing there and he has a perfect opportunity where the monster’s back is to him looking at his dad to just throw him onto that sword along with him, and he just stands there whi, which is what the girls do in this movie whenever they’re confronted.

Oh yeah. With the killer and I hate that 

Craig: about, yeah. Especially now that, uh, buzz is dead. Amy is just kind of walking around being scared by the fun house stuff. Oh, oh God, that’s come on. So dumb. And, and then, and then in my, I don’t even remember this. I just have in my notes. Amy is in an industrial basement.

Yes. 

Todd: In my notes. I just have, where the fuck is she while she’s down there? I dunno how she got there. She, she felt, she crawled through a vent or something. And now this was, by the way, we’ve got the fun house. We have the subbasement below the Fun house where this family stays. She crawls down a even deeper to this below the subbasement of the fun house, which I guess includes all of the mechanics.

Before having it. Right. 

Craig: Big exposed gears. Giant, giant 

Todd: shades going by on hooks like room hook. What was that all about? There is nothing that complicated up above. Plus there is a whole floor between the actual foot house and this room, so, so yeah. So 

Craig: she’s down there in this industrial basement and Gunther steam, 

Todd: by the way.

Yeah, every down. Then steam is coming out like 

Craig: seriously hooks on chain on a conveyor belt. Like what is this? I don’t understand. Doesn’t make any sense. But he confronts her and he screams at her cause he doesn’t talk, he just screams no 

Todd: before, before he confronts her. Craig, you cannot skip this. She spends about eight minutes.

I almost timed it. It’s over five minutes. Just crawling around this room she could clearly see across. And just freak it out. Just, I don’t 

Craig: remember. I, I remember her finding bodies. She finds her friend’s body with the girl that was, that was 

Todd: before this. Yeah, down there. She’s by herself waiting for that guy to come down.

Oh, alright. Sorry. No, it’s okay. 

Craig: Um, and so he comes down and screams at her and she hits him with the crowbar, but he grabs it and like goes to swing it at her, but accidentally gets electrocuted 

Todd: like by a fuse box. And then accidentally his arm flops over onto the chain and he starts getting pulled around the room.

And what does she do? And she think she’s dead. 

Craig: She stands six inches in front of 

Todd: him, follows him around the room six inches away from him, freaking out. 

Craig: And, and then he wakes up slowly. Does she 

Todd: move? No. No. She stands, she stands right there. Screams a a bunch while he slowly reaches his hand out and grabs her.

I, I wanted to throw my computer at the TV at this point was, it was ridiculous. 

Craig: And I couldn’t believe, like, 

Todd: and I said, I’m telling you, I read this review that said, oh, the nail biting 10 tense final scene, like, kind of makes up. I was like, are you kidding me? The final scene is stupid. I 

Craig: thought it was funny.

It is stupid, but it’s kinda funny. Funny. Oh, it’s funny. And then so like, he’s, he, you know, like he’s, he’s on the hook, on the, on the, I don’t know. And he gets pulled into like these big spinning gears and uh, supposedly gets crushed or whatever. And the last scene is another. Well first she walks out and she looks at the top of the fun house.

There’s this big animatronic fat lady and it like laughs at her. Um, which is kind of funny. I read that. That’s supposed to be like, oh, it’s over cuz the fat Lady’s sang, okay, cute, whatever. And then it’s a great crane. Another great crane shot. Like when I say a great crane shot, I mean a great crane shot.

Like yeah, I read that this crane was enormous, like 300 feet tall or 

something. 

Todd: You’d have to be to get as high as as it 

Craig: got. Oh my God. It just pulls up and you see. But my favorite thing about that very final shot is that the rest of the carneys are just going about their business. You know, like nobody knows.

What all has gone down in the fun house all night and they’re just getting ready for the day, like mm-hmm. I loved it. Loved it. 

Todd: And she kind of blends in with them, right? Because she’s just, um, almost looks as beat down as the rest of them. Yeah, she 

Craig: does. I do not hate this movie. 

Todd: I don’t hate it. I, I’ve seen worse.

Yeah. 

Craig: I don’t think it’s a great movie, but I think it’s interesting. I think that there are interesting things to say about it. Um, and, uh, given the opportunity, I would be interested to hear Toby Hooper or anybody else who is involved in it. You’re right. I couldn’t find a lot about it either in, in trying found than me trying to research it.

Found kudos. Yeah. In trying to research it, I couldn’t find a whole lot, which is disappointing. I love, you know, behind the scenes stuff, but I, I would be interested and, and for a filmmaker who’s well respected by his prestigious peers, um, you know, this is an early venture for him and I think that it shows a lot of promise.

Is it a great movie? No, absolutely not. The, the story is pretty stupid. But there, there are things about it. I think there’s some really, I, I think there’s some cool cinematography, some cool imagery, just suggestions of what he would do better later. I don’t, I don’t hate it. 

Todd: I mean, I can see why at the time, I think at the time 1981, uh, you know, the, the critic reviews were generally positive and Gene Sikel gave it like a positive.

And I, and I think the reason for that is because it stands out amongst what was there. Mm-hmm. And we’ve been doing these movies, right? It’s, it’s usually just the dead teenager movies like Roger Ebert called them, they’re really stupid. Like, you know, they’re just a bunch of people and then they get hacked up and it’s all about how bloody can it be?

And there’s pretty much no story. This movie obviously stands out against that. And so it probably felt very fresh and original, even though a lot of it was ridiculous. Mm-hmm. But with, with the stylized lighting and Toby Hooper up and coming guy. Um, and something just different and unique probably really resonated with people.

Yep. But looking at it now, again, I, I’ve seen much worse. Uh, I, there were some things to like in here, but I was bored and I, I didn’t find it scary. I found it downright silly at times, and not even unin, not even intentionally silly. Uh, and I, and I, I cannot get over. I really hate, I’m almost personally offended by horror movies where the female does nothing but stand there and scream and get killed.

And it’s, it’s almost a trope, right. But it’s mm-hmm. Particularly bad in this movie. Maybe among the worst I’ve seen, there’s never even an excuse given like, oh, she fell down, or, oh, she’s backed up against a corner, or something like that. This girl at the end of the movie, literally follows this guy around the room six inches away from him.

Mm-hmm. While she’s freaking out and screaming. She should have been smarter than that. Mm-hmm. Anyway. 

Craig: Yeah, I think your criticisms are totally fair. I, uh, don’t disagree with anything that you’ve said. That being said, if you haven’t seen it Yeah. Folks watch it. I like, I, 

Todd: yeah, I check it out. I think, I think horror fans, we, we, we watch a lot of different stuff and this is unique enough to Yeah.

To check out. Just like I said, if you’re looking for something to be terrified 

Craig: by, I, I’m not. Oh, no. It’s not scary. 

Todd: No. Cool. Well, uh, thanks again patrons for recommending this movie. You Too can be a patron if you go to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. But also we just like to hear from all of our fans, uh, whatever you thought of this podcast, whatever you thought of this movie, if you’ve seen it, uh, just find us two guys in a chainsaw podcast is all you need to Google to pull up our Facebook page or Twitter page.

Leave us a note there. Let us know what you think. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We know Daphne Zuniga best from Spaceballs. But just a few years before that, she had her first star turn in this 1984 slasher, The Initiation.

While we admire Daphne Zuniga’s performance and it’s easy to root for her as a “scream queen,” the film’s plot development and pacing leave a bit to be desired, especially compared to other slashers of the era.

The Initiation (1984)

Episode 348, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys in a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, it’s about time to do another request, and as always, we put the requests to our patrons. Every time we get a request from somewhere, we put it into a big long request list. Then we, uh, make a little poll. We grab a few of ’em, and we send ’em to our patrons and we say, which would you guys like us to do?

And then they vote on them and we do those. Well, this time the, there was a. A dead tie between two. We were gonna break the tie, but then I just thought, why don’t we just do both of them? Why not? People are equally interested in hearing us do the Toby Hooper directed The Funhouse and, uh, this movie that we’re doing today.

The first one is The Initiation from 1984. I, I do need to mention that, uh, Leeia originally requested this, um, and uh, also a loyal listener and Patron Gary has, uh, requested it a couple times as well. So they’re the ones for, uh, responsible for initially bringing it to our attention. But, uh, I was excited to see it because I remember the box art from being a kid.

And, uh, also it’s stars, Daphne Zuniga in her very first, uh, starring role. Really. The, yeah. She only did one other movie before this, and that was, um, when she was still in college and it was kind of a student pick that was sort of put together, uh, called The Dorm that Dripped Blood and we Oh yeah. Reviewed that as well, remember?

Yeah. And that was interesting. But, uh, it was okay. Yeah, it wasn’t, it wasn’t bad for sure. It was definitely a low budget. Uh, you could tell labor of love for a bunch of college students. Didn’t she get her head run over 

Craig: in that movie? Was that somebody else? 

Todd: She died really early on. Yeah, I think she had her head run over.

Yeah. So that was disappointing. But here you get to see her through the whole thing. Yeah. And then what, like a couple years after this, she went on to do space balls, I think just a couple years thus began her career. And I think she’s still steadily working. Uh, both so in television and in movies. So anyway, I had not actually seen this before, uh, tonight.

So, uh, how about you, Craig? Do you have any history with The Initiation? 

Craig: No, I remember the box art too. Um, God, I can just picture it in my head. It’s like, you know, a, a woman as a like taper candle. When you said, let’s think about doing this one, I honestly would’ve bet you $5 that we had already done it. I just had it in my mind that we had already done it.

Yeah, I think I was thinking of the house on sorority row for some reason. Yeah. I don’t know. I, I 

Todd: agree. I, I kind of felt like, um, The, the box art’s not too dissimilar. It’s just, just, and that it’s got a kind of a woman’s scantily dressed on it. Of course, this one, she’s a candle and that one she’s not. I don’t know.

There’s something about the two movies too that feel here. I don’t know. They’re kind of in the same, yeah, they’re both sorority 

Craig: movies. Mm-hmm. Both of them kind of deal with, you know, typical Greek prank hijinks gone awry. But, well, they’re not the same movie. No. As a, as a, as big as a surprise as it was to me, they’re not.

Um, and I know that probably I sound like a broken record because I feel like I say this all the time, but I can’t believe I haven’t seen this before. Right. I don’t know how it slipped through the cracks for me. I like, it’s streams everywhere. Like I’ve seen, I, I just think that I had convinced myself that I had seen it, so I never, I never clicked on it because I thought that I had already.

Seen it. Yeah. But no, I hadn’t, this was the first time I didn’t really know anything about it. I just sat down, uh, in my living room and watched it yesterday. The only thing that I knew about it was that it had something to do with like a sorority initiation. Um, and that Daphne Zuniga was in it. And the fact that Daphne Zuniga was in it was enough for me.

Cuz I just, I don’t know, it’s not like I’m going to start the Daphne Zenga fan club or anything, but I just really like her. She’s cute and yeah, she’s more than cute. She’s really pretty. She has great hair

That’s in my notes somewhere. Daphne Zuniga has great hair and she’s, she’s fun and she’s, she’s very, very young and fresh faced in this and yeah, just very beautiful and, and very easy to get on board with as a scream queen. 

Todd: Honestly, she is cuz she just got that girl next door. Sort of look, but, but yeah, probably prettier than most of the girls live next door to me.

And, you know, I don’t know. It’s just like she’s got, I will, I will not say she’s the best actress in the world. Yeah. Um, but I, I don’t mind, uh, what she does, like what she does, her shtick, her thing is, is totally great. I mean, she’s just that girl next door. She’s kind of plucky, kind of a vanilla, you know, you could just kind of put anything on top of her really, you know?

And I think that, 

Craig: well, she’s so young here. I mean, you have to kind of. Curb your expectations. I mean, she’s a child, you know? Yeah. Like, this is, this is the very beginning of her career. Now, to be fair, I haven’t really kept up with her career. What I do know is that she is hilarious in Spaceballs. Like, oh yeah, God, yes.

It will forever live rent free. In my mind, her singing, nobody knows the trouble I’ve seen in that deep baritone in a jail cell. That is one of the funniest scenes ever. Yeah. It’s funny.

So I’m, I’m a fan. Anyway, she’s in this movie. It, and, you know, as far as the movie is concerned, eh, it was all right. Yeah. I don’t know, like, no, nothing really to write home about. 

Todd: I’m not gonna be too critical of this movie. It is very same samey with a lot of the other 80 slashers that we’ve done. But then there’s like this sort of, uh, sort of a subgenre of the paint by numbers 80 slashers that.

Seem to care a little bit more about characterization and story, or at least trying to, even if they didn’t really, and a mystery, you know, like this movie. I kind of think the script is a mess, honestly. And I don’t think the script is very good, but, um, they’re trying, like, you can tell they’re trying to be a little more dramatic.

It reminded me a little bit of, but will The House on Sorority Row really? Curtains, Pieces? Pieces? Yeah, maybe a little bit of, um, I, I don’t know. It’s just, what, what is it I’m looking for? It’s, it’s, I don’t know, it’s, there’s like a soap opera quality to it 

Craig: because Right, there are several tropes, you know, you know, one of the tropes of, um, of horror period is, Opening the movie with a traumatic childhood event.

Like we, we definitely get that 

Todd: Usually involving sex. Yes. 

Craig: Sex and death. Some combination of the two. Uh, you see it all the time and we get it here. This, this, it’s a, it’s a stormy night. Gosh. Used to be. But you said stuff about the script and, and I agree with you. I think that there’s, I don’t know it, I don’t know if it’s overwritten or what, but first of all, the, the first thing that I always look at when I look to see these movies is how long they are and, right.

And I, you know, Alan was sitting behind me doing a puzzle and I went, oh man, it’s over an hour and a half. 

Todd: By, by what? Seven minutes? By like, 

Craig: by like seven minutes. But. I think that was at least seven minutes too much. Oh yeah. Like I think that they could have trimmed this down to a slim one 20 and it would’ve been 

Todd: fine.

I was definitely looking at my watch through, I was like, God, it’s not over yet. Why is this still going on? It felt like a two hour movie. It did. 

Craig: And, and there were some scenes that I was rolling my eyes and like, why is this conversation happening? Yeah. Like this is the weirdest thing to bring up three way, three quarters of the way into the movie.

Like this wo this woman like trauma dumps on all of her friends. Oh my God. What? 

Todd: Almost immediately I was thinking like, um, like a gremlins. You remember how sudden there was that really odd moment in gremlins where, where she just like talks about this horrible thing that happened to her when she was a kid and it just feels very out of place.

Well, I know, 

Craig: but I feel like in that movie it’s intentional. And Phoebe Kates and you know, Richard Donna, the director, whoever, they played it super, super straight. Yeah, so that it would be funny. Yeah. In this movie it’s played super, super straight, but I don’t think it’s supposed to be funny and it’s not.

No, it’s just weird, like, Okay. Thanks for that little 

Todd: story of your youth. What I was thinking is you’ve had about an hour and 15 minutes of what is essentially just a whole bunch of drama events happening between people and supposed character building, which doesn’t really work. And then, you know, before we even get to much of the killing, by then, three people are dead that we don’t even know very well or care too much about.

And it’s like, was this supposed to be a slasher movie? And then you realize it’s, oh, it’s like it’s gonna be within the last 20 minutes that everybody’s together in what is, uh, supposed to be a department store. Yeah. And, uh, they all get cut up. And so once you realize that’s happening, you’re like, all right, well the movie must be ending soon.

And now suddenly, like you said, this, Character is suddenly telling her life story. Like, I, you had an hour to do that. Right? I mean, why are you doing it now? I’m ready for the movie to be done. Yeah. And for people to get killed. So, um, you should be killing her, not telling us her backstory. Yeah. 

Craig: The, I, I have several problems with the writing and one of them is the end, which obviously we will spoil, but it’s a little early for that.

Oh, it’s very twisty. The other big. Well, okay. Aside from the childhood trauma, which I’ll get back to a second, the other big trope is I know you love a movie set in the mall, so I figured that this would be like Right. A really good thing in your book, like check in a mall. It’s 

Todd: awesome. Yeah, I, I mean, that was a consolation for me.

That’s what it was. I was like, oh, at least we’re gonna be in a mall for the last part of this movie that is 

Craig: like the biggest, weirdest mall I’ve ever, I’ve never been in a mall like that. Well, it’s not, it looks more like a convention center or a hotel C like it is. It was what like, I don’t know, six or 

Todd: eight stories.

You know, it’s the Dallas Market Center, and the crazy thing is I looked all this up afterwards, but watching this movie and seeing this. They, they are calling it the buil, uh, the Pruit building or whatever. I can’t remember what, no, not Pruitt. Whatever the guy’s last name is. Last name, yeah. Building. And so it’s her father’s building and they keep talking about, early on in the movie, they’re talking about how they’re gonna do the leg, their senior prank there because she has the keys to the building and so they want her to help them all the, the pledges sneak in and they’re gonna steal the uniform of the security guard, which is bizarre.

I dunno how they thought they were gonna do that. Then. It’s called a department store. But when you walk in No, it’s the, it’s, it looks like an, it’s a giant atrium. Yeah. Huge atrium with floors. You know what, 20 floors with marble 

Craig: floors? Well, yeah, it’s, yeah, that’s what I’m saying. It’s enormous. I mean, I have, I have been in buildings like that, like I’ve been in hotels like that.

They’re all centered around a huge atrium, but I’ve never. Been in a mall like that and Right. They call it, they call it a department store. No, that’s not a apartment store. No apartment store’s like a JCPenney or a Marshalls or something like this is clearly a mall. But they do spend the majority of their time, like in housewares.

Todd: Right. 

Craig: The bed store. This movie could have taken place. Oh God. See. And it was like chopping mall in that way too. Like, oh God. They spent a lot of time in housewares and chopping mall in the beginning too. 

Todd: That’s true. But that cuz that’s where you lay down sleep and bang. Right, right. But, but this was, um, that was a legit mall.

This was not a mall. This is the, like you, it was actually a convention center. It’s a wholesale place. It’s called the Dallas Market Center. And they have lots of events there, but then they also have, you can’t get into this place unless you’re a wholesale buyer, basically. Gotcha. And so I think that’s what all those quote unquote shops are.

They’re not really shops. They’re like offices and showrooms. Okay. But what I saw it, I was like, I think this movie was shot in Texas, because I lived in Texas for six years of my childhood. And I remember just, uh, the way that the flooring was in there and the big atrium thing and all that. I’m like, oh my God, this is so Texas.

And sure enough, yeah, I looked it up. It’s, it was in Dallas. In fact, most of this was shot there. And then on the campus of Southwest Baptist University, I guess. Gotcha. Southern Baptist University and uh, yeah, I think it’s in Fort Worth. So it’s actually 

Craig: a great set piece. Like Oh it is? Yeah. It looks really cool.

Um, and it looks like a real environment. Like it doesn’t look like a set most of the time, um, because it is a real environment, obviously. Right. But they can, they can do some kind of cool. Things with, you know, seeing people at a distance on different levels or seeing people, because this atrium is so big, you know, you can have right somebody in a, a shot, you know, right up close and then way, way behind them you can see somebody you know, on the floors above or in an elevator above.

So it’s got that going for it, but 

Todd: it has that. Inherent shopping mall problem in horror movies because it, it’s always an abandoned shopping mall. And even though it’s a very, very large space, if there are only like six people in it, if some small noise happens anywhere in there, right, it’s gonna reverberate through the whole space, especially 

Craig: by the nature of this one, because it’s literally like one enormous room.

Yeah, basically. 

Todd: But the way you know the movie plays out is the way these movies often play out. I, I think, what was it? It was the one, uh, that takes place in a grocery store that we were most critical of where it was like, come on, intruder. Yeah, yeah. Intruder. A guy on aisle L five is screaming and certainly you’re gonna hear it way back in the meat room, you know?

Yeah. That was a 

Craig: great movie. That was better than this movie. 

Todd: Yeah, for sure. Oh, I would re-watch that. I would not re-watch this. Yeah, for sure. Alright, 

Craig: well we gotta get to the trauma because it’s at the center of the whole thing. Like true too, too much. So like, yeah, you could almost take this whole thing out and just make it somebody killing them in the mall, and that would almost be more interesting.

But we have to have the childhood trauma, so it’s a stormy night for. Inexplicable reasons we’re panning through this room of a child. But all of the doll’s heads are ripped off, which is never, it’s brought up again later, but never explained. I think I know. Okay. All right, well you can tell me later. And then this little girl walks down this long, creepy hallway.

And in my notes, here’s what I said. Little girl walks down, hall sees mom Some guy stabs him. Dad comes in, catches fire. Like that’s what I thought happened. So she sees mom with this guy, you know, they’re banging and then another man clothed comes in. But before that, she stabs the naked guy, like right with scissors in the leg or something.

And then the cloth guy comes in and the naked guy and the cloth guy get in a fight. And the guy who’s wearing a coat like falls to the ground in front of the fireplace and his clothes catch on fire and he burns. And then Daphne Zuniga grown young adult Daphne Zuniga wakes up surrounded by sorority sisters, and that’s when we get into the hole.

This is pledge week pledges. Kelly, Beth, Marsha, and Allison do hereby swear that in this last week of your pledge period, you will complete your sacred duties to the best of your ability, that you’ll obey your older and wiser active sisters, and that you will do anything they ask no matter what the consequences.

So help you God, I swear. Then rise pledges and let this night be heralded as the official commencement of your hell. Week prank night is gonna be on Saturday, and this is what the prank is gonna be. Be because your dad owns this big building. You’ll get us inside, blah, blah, blah. Okay? We’ve already set all that up, but yeah.

So that’s what I saw from the opening scene. But then later, like Z Daphne Zuniga is haunted by this. Like she keeps having this dream, but when she tells somebody about it, she says, A strange man came in and I stabbed my dad. And I’m like, what? What are you talking 

Todd: about? Yeah. You don’t understand what happened here, do you?

Well, either she doesn’t or I 

Craig: don’t. She, yeah. Right. Well, that’s what that’s, but that’s what I’m saying. That’s what am, am I stupid or Yeah. 

Todd: Are you stupid thinking the same thing? Yeah. I was like, what? But she, so 

Craig: anyway, that’s that whole backstory. Then there’s the sorority thing. Then there’s also, oh my god, this is so random.

So she randomly mentions to one of her pledge sisters that she’s interested in like the psychology of dreams. So then, yeah, she goes and talks to this ta, I think named Peter. 

Todd: No, I think it’s a professor. 

Craig: Well, he’s, he’s for sure a grad student. I don’t, yes. I’m telling you. I know this. Um, he, okay. All right.

But he does teach, I think that’s why I say he’s a TA because he does teach classes and grade papers. 

Todd: Oh, so that’s where they kind of, okay. Yeah. Try to make her, and 

Craig: like, at first he’s mad at her. Uh, why Dreams and nightmares. It’s a fascinating 

Todd: subject. Excuse me. But it wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that I’m writing my doctoral thesis on dream analysis, would it?

No. I mean, I didn’t know. You didn’t know. I have my own reasons. Mr. Adams. I’m sorry. I do get a lot of freshmen coming in here trying to brown nose their way through, you know? Oh, that’s so dumb. Yeah. She’s like, I didn’t 

Craig: even know that you were into 

Todd: dream. And so it’s supposed to be this instant connection moment between them.

But the, the idea that TA or Professor take your pick is gonna be mad because a student is doing a paper on what happens to be their specialty is basically the opposite of how life works. A professor would be thrilled for a student to do a topic on something that their life’s work or study or whatever is in, I mean, it’s, it’s exactly what they want more or less.

So that was dumb. 

Craig: Well, and then also, like I know that this happens in real life all the time, but he is a grown ass adult and she is a. Infant. Yes. 

Todd: But he’s immediately, they’re too close 

Craig: immediately. And then like they are just openly Yeah, a couple. I, I mean, not like a couple, but dating or seeing each other, whatever.

And even if he is just a TA that would still put him at like, I don’t know, 22. Uh, I don’t know. I guess it’s not that big a difference. It was kind of jarring seeing them together on screen because he looks significantly older. Like he could, he does maybe have played her dad. Yeah. And she looks really young, and he was super familiar to me because he’s on Days of our 

Todd: Lives.

Oh, 

Craig: I knew you could, but I didn’t, I didn’t know that. That’s actually not why I, because he’s obviously 40 years older now. He looks significantly different. He’s still a handsome man, but he looks significantly different. What I actually recognized him from, uh, he was Barbara Hershey’s cheating husband. In Beaches.

Todd: Oh 

Craig: no. Another great movie. We should do that movie. So, 

Todd: just kidding. Oh God, that’s a horror movie in a different way. That’s a great movie. 

Craig: Yeah. Okay, so, oh, so the whole, the, the whole thing. So she meets up with him and then he’s like, oh, well I have a closet. That’s not what he says. Obviously. He, he’s like, I do, I, I’m doing dream studies in this little, what looks like a closet back stock room or something, and he’s like, I hook you up to an eeg.

And then, I don’t know, 

Todd: like I rem sleep and all that stuff. To 

Craig: what end? I don’t really know. 

Todd: It’s so funny because like you said, it’s so written, this movie, because, I mean, one thing you have to say about it is it plunges you into this quite quickly. Now she’s down in his closet, you know, he’s showing her all the equipment and then boom, who happened to be, I don’t know, under a desk for some reason, this grad student, you know, uh, assistant Heidi or whatever, I guess that he says, pops up her name is, uh, Heidi.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, he immediately makes a crack about her appearance, which I thought was, uh, was hilarious. Um, oh, I didn’t even notice that. Yo, he’s like, oh, she’s not very feminine, is she? Or something like that. Uh uh Anyway, yeah. And they, they introduce themselves and then Daphne Zuniga, whose name is Kelly, right?

Yeah, yeah. Starts, starts fondling the equipment. Yeah. She’s kinda running her hands along the dials and things on the stuff, and I was like, What is she doing? And she kind of goes off into Lala land for a second and then sees her face in the mirror. And then I, I don’t know, I was like, is she possessed now?

What’s going on? 

Craig: I had no idea what was going on. Like, they’re making a big deal out of mirrors the whole time. Yeah. Too much. Yeah, too much. And, and not even just mirrors, but any reflection. And any time, maybe you can, uh, enlighten me on this. Any time they were showing her, like looking into a mirror.

There was something uncanny about it, like it didn’t really look like they were shooting Daphne Zuniga in front of a mirror. It almost looked like two. Do you know what I’m talking about? It, it, it not really. No. 

Todd: It, 

Craig: it looked like she was standing across from a video screen of herself. Yeah. Rather than looking into a mirror.

Todd: I think I know what you mean because this movie didn’t follow the kind of typical mirror. She was literally looking into a very clean, nice square mirror every single time, no matter what mirror she was looking in. And it would just, her face would just kind of fill the whole thing or her body like, yeah.

Yeah. And it was just, it was weird because a lot of times in movies, you know, when people are looking in the mirrors, they leave a little gap around there. And also they’re showing a little bit of the background. Um, and, and oftentimes, you know, they’re trying to show something else in the background. Well also, 

Craig: usually when you have somebody looking into a mirror, you’re looking, we, the audience are usually looking at the back of their head and seeing and seeing their face reflected back at us.

But in this, every single time, you see, yeah, she, I guess she’s supposed to be in profile because you see her face basically full on. On in both. Yeah. Like you’re actually seeing her and seeing her reflection. It’s a stupid point. It just stood out to me as 

Todd: being weird. The reason it looks weird is because that, that doesn’t happen in real life.

Like, uh, if she was staring into a mirror and she was in profile, you would see her profile in there. But they, they purposely angled the mirror for movie purposes to show more of her face, right? Mm-hmm. So I think that’s why it looks uncanny. It’s just because that’s not how mirrors work, unless they’re angled for the purpose of showing more of that person’s face in the camera.

You’re right. It doesn’t look right for that reason. That, I guess, I, I can see what you’re talking about now. Yeah. We need to 

Craig: get back to, okay. So like immediately he’s like, do you wanna do a dream study? And she’s like, I don’t know. And then five seconds later, she’s in the chair and Yeah. And we have some, and there we are.

Like, like she goes to the bathroom. Looks into a mirror, sees a reflection of her child’s self. Like with blood, like, like from the, the scene, from the original scene. Mm-hmm. But we also skipped something because Yeah. Right after the, an introduction to the sorority girls, we also go to a typical movie, insane Asylum, where people are just acting ridiculous, talk about tropes, and there’s, and there’s a whole scene that makes absolutely no difference because all we need to know is that people broke out and we also need to be introduced to, again, I was confused.

As it turns out, this man that we’re introduced to, he’s burned, um, he’s got burn scars on his hands and face. As it turns out, he’s an inmate, but he’s also the groundskeeper. But that was not clear to me at all. Like Correct. I thought he was one or the other and I was very confused. As to what 

Todd: was happening.

I thought he was the groundskeeper, cuz they don’t refer to him as anything else. In fact, the, the inmates are all locked up and he’s outside tilling the, the ground with his three-pronged instrument thing. I thought 

Craig: later when the cops are talk or somebody’s talking about it, they’re like, including the inmate groundskeeper.

Yes, but I, I, 

Todd: yes. No, that was thrown in at the end, at the very end. Okay. So you’re right. We didn’t 

Craig: know this. We don’t know. But, uh, I mean, I’m embarrassed to admit that it took me maybe five, 10 minutes to remember that her da or or whoever that was, that guy that I thought was her dad in the original scene had been burned up.

Like, oh, I should have remembered that immediate like, It happened literally three minutes ago and here we are being introduced to another character covered in Burn Scars. And it took me far too long to put two and two together. 

Todd: Oh, okay. I mean, I saw it right away cuz the burn scars were so freaking obvious.

Yeah, pretty good actually. Yeah, it was pretty good. Yeah. Nice makeup or whatever on it. But 

Craig: which one of these guys, is it him? Is it the burned guy or is it the other guy who’s played by Klu Go Lagger. And why do I know him? We’ve seen him in a bunch of movies, right? Yeah. Klu Go. Was he that Evil 

Todd: Cat movie?

Yeah, he, he was that kind of drunk, weird guy in the Evil Cat movie. Remember that? Uh, It’s like drunk half the time and trying to steer the boat. Yeah. The uninvited, right? Yeah. He was like a child actor in the forties. I mean, he’s been all over television. Uh, I think we chatted a little bit about him when we were doing that cat movie, but, uh, mostly like cowboy roles and things like that, but he actually played her stepfather, although, well, it’s a, doesn’t, doesn’t know, right?

Oh, 

Craig: God. I, I feel like it’s, I feel like it’s easy. For the audience to put together what’s going on. And it even like when she throws that out, when she says, I stabbed my dad. And then this weird guy came in, like immediately it was like, I am confused because that is not how I read that situation at all.

Yeah. But as the movie goes on, it becomes pretty clear that we were right. And for whatever reason she doesn’t remember that. Right. Yeah. Her stepdad, Dwight is played by Clue Go Lager, and her mother is played by Vera Miles, who was in Psycho and Psycho 

Todd: too. Uh, and The Searchers. And uh, I mean, yeah, she is a, it’s a classic Hollywood gal and yeah.

And she brought a nice classic Hollywood feel to her role. I mean, she really 

did. 

Craig: I really liked her. I did 

Todd: too. And he was fine too. I mean, he, I honestly, the, the two parents, they might have been two of the most convincing sort of normal feeling. You know, movie parents I’ve seen in a horror movie in a while except for they were living this again, this sort of trophy, I don’t know what it is, uh, about these eighties films and especially these eighties horror movies.

And it always ends up being the final girls’ parents where they live in this very opulent house and they’re super rich. And the reason why we know they’re rich and opulent is they walk around wearing clothes that nobody would wear. That’s exactly 

Craig: what I was just gonna say. Like, who 

Todd: does that? They eat at dinner tables with like, fine China.

She’s pouring tea out of like a silvered, uh, tea kettle. And, uh, they’re lit candles on the table and yeah, they’re sitting, you know, way far apart from each other, you know, like all on the same side of the table. I mean, it’s just, It’s just so silly, but it’s a thing. 

Craig: Well, and the dad’s stepdad is like smarmy and off talking to his mistress on the phone and, 

Todd: and she overhears it, but then great, but then doesn’t do anything about it.

Craig: Okay. Except for people. When do people start getting killed? I don’t even remember. Like, oh, no. Well, has nobody been killed yet? My god, we’ve been talking for half an 

Todd: hour. So much happens. Well, here’s the pro here’s part of the issue, and, and I meant to say this in the beginning, but I didn’t, we, we keep talking about the writing.

The guy who wrote this as Charles Pratt Jr. He’s a soap opera writer. He was writing soaps, he was writing General Hospital, and then later the young and the Restless and stuff like hundreds, hundreds and thousands of episodes. And he was asked by New World Pictures to do a, a script for a horror script for them.

And so that’s why this movie is so soapy is because he was doing that kind of thing. 

Craig: And so that makes a lot of sense to me actually. Mm-hmm. There’s too much story that makes sense. Like that’s, that’s what soaps are all about. Soaps are all about intrigue and drama. And you don’t need that in a slasher movie at all.

Todd: Overly dramatic. Yeah, exactly. But, but we’re, we’re sitting here going, when is anyone gonna die? And the first person who dies, I think is the nurse Yeah. At the inmate asylum, which, you know, we see her for one thing, and then she’s, she’s killed in the process of leaving and she’s killed by that same garden implement.

Exactly. 

Craig: I, I, I Googled. What is a garden fork called?

Todd: Let me guess. A garden fork? It’s called a garden 

Craig: fork.

Todd: Thanks for looking that upsided 

Craig: down too. I dunno what that shit’s called, but that’s, he, it’s like a garden fork, like a three timed fork, you know, for digging or whatever. And this is what we had seen the burn guy working with. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s, I don’t know if it’s, uh, it feels yolo to me that because you see Yeah.

His hands and, and forearms all the time, or whoever it is. You see their hands and 

Todd: forearms. He even has gloves on. They’re just plastic see-through, not plastic. Plastic, see-through gloves, 

Craig: but also like the gray long sleeves of a workman’s uniform that we had seen that guy in. Yeah. And we know this guy escaped.

Yeah. So on the one hand, it seems like they’re being obvious about who it is without showing the face, but. On at the same time, trying to be coy about it, fly about it. Like I, I, yeah. I, it was difficult for me to figure out. And so the whole time I’m thinking, well, it’s, it’s too, it can’t be that guy. That’s too obvious.

Yeah. It can’t be him. If, if they were gonna be that obvious about it, they would just show his faith. Yeah. And so I didn’t know what was going on. And that one is not really explained, but they, they do, God, I don’t remember A bunch of people get killed, like 11 people or something, 

Todd: uh, by the end of it. But it takes a while for, before anyone we know gets killed.

Right, right. 

Craig: Like, I think, I don’t know if it’s next, uh, but 

Todd: is the father Oh, that’s 

Craig: right. Because we also get killer POV 

Todd: shots. Mm-hmm. Throughout, which were good. I liked 

Craig: those. It was fine. I mean it was, it was very standard Halloween stuff, but the dad or stepdad or whoever called he, he’s going to meet his mistress and he leaves in his car and while he goes to get in his car and he gets stabbed in the neck and then gets beheaded, I think with a machete again, the only time we see a machete.

Yeah. 

Todd: I love it that he’s outside walking to his car and we get that killer pov and he goes, who’s out there? Anyone out there? And then as part of the crickets chirping and things, there’s an actual shot of an owl hooting. That was so hilarious. I wasn’t paying that close attention. An insert shot of an hooting.

I was like, is this the Wizard of Oz? Are we the kids movie that you’re gonna tell? You’re gonna show us that? You know, the woods are spooky and scary at night by showing us an owl. 

Craig: Weird. I feel like he gets weird beheaded in silhouette now that you say it. Uh, I don’t know. You see some stabbings and stuff.

There’s some blood. It’s not super go though. 

Todd: No, it’s all right. It’s stabbing in blood. That’s all it is. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. He gets his head cut off, I think, in silhouette, and then it cuts back into his wife and she notices that he is left his glasses behind. She walks out onto the porch to see the car driving away, and she goes, sometimes I think that man would forget his head if it wasn’t attached.

Yes. Oh my God. 

Todd: Oh, you didn’t appreciate that. 

Craig: I thought that was so stupid. I mean, it’s funny. I guess it’s a little too obvious. Yeah, right. It’s pretty dumb. Right. The only other thing before they get to the mall, uh, she does that dream study and Peter comes up with like five words. Do you? I don’t even remember what they were.

It was like, this is so much 

Todd: gobbledy 

Craig: gook. I don’t even remember. Do you, did you write anything down about that? Because it was like, it was like he had figured out the. Key to her. 

Todd: Psychosis or something. He’s like, it’s like scissors, mirror, father, mother, something else. Something else. And he’s all there talking about it to her and it’s a bunch of mumbo jumbo stuff.

And then his grad assistant springs in says, no, I disagree because there, if you look clearly it here, she wasn’t in REM sleep. Are you suggesting it’s some psychic manifestation? Yes, I believe that’s what it was. Oh, that’s garbage. You know, that’s not very scientific. Yada yada. Well, how else do you explain it?

And then she storms off mad and so they have a disagreement. I know they have that whole fight 

Craig: about, oh, it must be psychic activity. Once again, never mentioned again, like no so many random things just that are just throwaways. Like, well, oh, she, she must be like psychic or something. Okay, well we will never speak of it 

Todd: now.

That is how I interpreted that. But I do wonder if it’s just a mistake of terminology, because I think ultimately what we later learned is that he believes it’s a dream and she believes that it’s an actual memory. And so I think that’s what they were kind of fighting about. But when you throw that word psychic in there, that’s all we think about is it’s like she’s psychic.

Like she can read minds or see the future or 

Craig: something like that. Well, something to do later on. Something to do. Again, we’re kind of jumping around cuz it jumps back to these people periodically while the girls and guys are in the mall. But eventually they determine that because. Of mirrors? Yes. That Kelly has multiple personalities and is schizophrenic.

What? Like this is so dumb. These grad students. Doing a dream study, figure out that because she dreams of mirrors, she has multiple 

Todd: personalities with the touch of schizophrenia. And it’s because Kelly, uh, has been chatting with her mom or over the dinner table that she’s in this dream study. And for whatever reason, her mom is like upset by it.

She’s like, no, you shouldn’t be revisiting this. I want you to stop it at once. And she’s like, I will study. I will go out with whoever I want to go out with and I’ll study whatever I want to do. You don’t tell me what to do. And she storms out. So at some point she’s back doing this dream study thing, but he’s decided to hypnotize her this time.

So they’re back in the closet on campus. Meanwhile, there are shots of mom who’s driving to the campus looking for her, and I’ve no idea number one, why mom has driven to the campus to look for her. Except I thought, well, maybe because her, her husband hasn’t shown up, you know, the next day. And so maybe she’s just looking for her in general.

And then she somehow manages to find the closet that they’re doing this hypnosis thing in Uhhuh. And when she walks in on them, how on they’re doing it. This girl’s reliving her memory of this night and she’s like, dolls? Dolls with the heads, you know, broken off. And the guy’s like, did you break the heads off the dolls?

And she’s like, no, no, not me. And then she kind of says a bunch of other things and then she seems very upset. And that’s when the mom burston is like, what are you doing? And it seems like he’s trying to pull her out of the dream by calling her name, but she’s not coming out of this hypnotic state, Uhhuh.

And her mom just goes, It’s, uh, Kelly Randall, not Fairchild. Oh my God. 

Craig: That is such a soap opera moment now that, now that I know that this was written by a soap opera guy that is such like the reveal. She’s not responding because that’s not her real name, right? Like, she’s not who you think she is. Oh my God, that’s hilarious.

So she says that he 

Todd: wakes her up, she’s upset, she runs out, and the mom has words with the guy and the guy’s like, why did you call her Randall? And the mom’s just like, I’m not gonna tell you. And just walks out. I’m like, yeah, what? This is a major point here that we’re just gonna drop until later when it’s convenient to bring it up again 

Craig: when Heidi does research.

Yeah. Heidi. The, oh my gosh, Heidi eventually, like when it’s far too late, Heidi, uh, they just put it all together. Like they just, they just put the whole story together from like newspaper clippings and stuff, and they realize that. Kelly’s dad was the inmate gardener or whatever, and so he’s out and they, they think she must be in danger or something.

Oh, God. Yeah. I, I did wanna say that hypnosis part, Daphne Zuniga was surprisingly good in that. Part, I thought, like she seemed to me, the way that she was talking when she was under it was so different than, I don’t know, it felt childlike and sleepy and it was a, 

Todd: yeah. Contrast. 

Craig: Yeah. I, I, I really enjoyed her in that moment, even though it’s really stupid, like this guy, this, uh, Peter, the TA or whatever, not only does he study dreams, but he’s also a hypnotist.

Todd: Like what I know, right? It’s all, it’s all perfect. And I love, 

Craig: you know, I, I’m not gonna pretend like I know a lot about hypnotism, but in these movies, they just pretend like they act like it’s just, oh, let’s just hypnotize somebody. Like, 

Todd: right. Close your eyes. Now I’m just gonna talk to you. And then, yeah, you’re 

Craig: feeling very sleepy, right?

And you’re gonna, you’re gonna explore all of your most traumatic childhood experiences. But I’m sure it’ll be fine. Me a ta, you know, I know what I’m doing. It’ll be okay. 

Todd: Now, we’ve passed by the party. Yeah, 

Craig: why not? Aside from the fact that it was fun because it was a costume party, does anything of consequence happen there?

Todd: No, it just sort of introduces suddenly some new male characters that later on we’re gonna need to remember that they exist. That’s really Well, very good part. 

Craig: They’re, they’re just fodder. I mean, they, they do, they, I mean, they as, as much as they try to give these young people, the vast majority of this movie takes place on a mall, and we haven’t even started talking about that yet.

But there’s really not a whole lot to talk about. No, because at the 

Todd: party that’s majority, this movie does not take place in the mall, I don’t think gets in the mall until about an hour in, oh my God. 

Craig: Maybe it just, maybe the mall part just felt so long. 

Todd: It dragged so long, but really like, it was like an hour and 10 minutes into this movie before I was like, oh my god.

When is this initiation gonna happen? Because I’m waiting for initiation stuff in the beginning. You know, they have all the thing with the candles and they’re telling them that they’re gonna have this prank, and then it’s not until the last 30 minutes or so that they do this prank. Right. And get into the mall.

Craig: Right. And it’s, it’s the three, there were four initiates, but one of them mouthed off to the leader girl. Yeah. And, and so she, she ended up going home. So, uh, three initiates the 35 year old sorority girl. That girl looked, I swear to God, like I thought she was surely their house mother. But no, she was supposed to be a, around their age, I guess.

Todd: Do you mean their pledge trainer? Megan? Do 

Craig: you mean Beth? Yes. Their pledge. Oh, not Beth. Megan was their pledger. Yeah, Megan, sorry. Yeah. Beth was the one who went back to. Her room. 

Todd: Beth. Beth, who like suddenly out of nowhere, they’re in the middle of getting ready for this thing. This girl who we’ve barely seen suddenly objects to absolutely everything that’s happened to her in her life at Patel.

That moment with this sorority, this is crazy. 

Craig: We’ve gone too far, Megan. I didn’t come to 

Todd: college for this Girl Scout shit. We’re grown women. Look at US candles, preview ascent songs. We should be doing something constructive, something positive. I know God not breaking into a stupid department store and storms often quits, and I’m like, Is this gonna be important?

Why? No, I didn’t. No. You know, 

Craig: she needs to be, it’s very important that she be back at the dorms to take a phone call later. That is the The 

only 

Todd: reason. That’s the reason. Yeah. 

Craig: They could’ve cut her entire character is entirely unnecessary. Uh, God, it’s so silly. I mean, I expected her to go off on by herself and die.

No. Mm-hmm. The rest of them. Mm-hmm. Okay. So for every girl, there’s also a male counterpart except for, for Kelly, cuz her guy is Peter and he’s not there. But the rest of them all have these doofy, like three stooges. Cartoon guys, um, that they’re 

Todd: there with. It’s another trope for these movies. I mean, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna really complain too much about that because that’s kind of what I watch these slashers for.

Craig: Right. That’s actually kind of the fun part. Like that’s what, yeah. Oh God. But they do, they, they tried to overwrite the characters. I didn’t care. I don’t know. On, on the one hand, I felt like they tried to overwrite them. On the other hand, I didn’t even know who they were. It took me forever. Like all the guys looked exactly the same.

Todd: I couldn’t get their names. Me 

Craig: either. It took me forever. I had to keep going back and like filling in names as, and, and I would notice that they would say, Every time anybody spoke to Marsha, they addressed her by name. And then there’s another girl, a blonde girl, uh, who takes her top off. They just refused to say her name.

I’m like, come 

Todd: on, somebody. Which patents to us, since we’re trying to write down their names, it probably wouldn’t matter to you watching the movie, but it was, it, it’s glaring for us, right? Yeah. 

Craig: Right before they get into the mall, we see the mall security guard, the one. Mall security guard. Yeah. In this enormous building, he gets killed again, I think with the, the, the Garden Fork.

Todd: Yes. He’s the third person to get killed, and aside from the father. Okay. These are just random people, you know? Yeah. I mean, we’re, so far it’s not, A great slasher. There hasn’t been a lot of slashing and uh, it just hasn’t been, it’s just like, oh, here’s a person. Now they’re dead, uh, kind of situation. So.

Well, and that’s what I, 

but 

Craig: now they’re in the mall, right. And now they’re in the mall. And one of the infuriating things is that they, I, I guess they don’t have any real reason to be scared. But they just keep splitting up for seemingly no reason. Oh yeah. And you know, initially like the, the, when the three girls first go in, uh, Kelly’s like, you stay here at the security place and you go cause a diversion and I’m gonna go somewhere else to get a spare uniform and then we’ll all come back together.

I thought they might start getting picked off. Nope. No. Such luck. No, they just go off and do their things, come back together. Then the boys and, huh? What’s that dumb girl’s name? Megan come in to mess with them. Mm-hmm. And they do kind of mess with them for a while, but not really. No. By messing with them, I mean like jumping out at them with masks on or, and like rolling bowling balls down a hallway or something.

Todd: But they take their time with it, you know, one of two of them are banging. And again, everything that happens in here, Even if you just talked to another character in one of these hallways, it’s gonna be heard throughout the entire ball. So, um, it, it doesn’t really ring true and it doesn’t have a sense of urgency or place or what’s going on.

They’re just randomly chit chatting with each other and joining up and splitting up and joining up and splitting up. And the reason they don’t just leave right after they get the uniform of this guy, which they actually go to the guards lounge to get a spare uniform that they’re gonna leave is because, um, Kelly, no, uh, Megan or whatever has locked the door.

Yeah. Um, locked them in. So they’re trying to find her once they realize she’s there. They’re trying to find her to get the keys. And the boys are hijinks are happening. Right. But nothing really interesting. No. 

Craig: Megan and her guy Andy, are getting freaky on an enormous pile of rugs, which, That might be fun.

I never, I, it never occurred to me like an enormous pile of rugs that, that’d be cool. That’d be kind of cool. Yeah. But they’re, and then they start running around. I don’t remember how he gets killed. She gets, um, shot with a, uh, crossbow. Yeah. Because fortunately there’s a sporting s good store and the killer can get knives and cross 

Todd: bows and all the doors are open to all these stores.

Yeah. They don’t have any problem going in there. No, they’re not 

Craig: locked or anything. Yeah. So I don’t, they both get killed and then that’s when we have the Strange Breakfast Club confessional moment like that, that one girl, this one girl, they’ve been kind of teasing throughout the whole movie about the fact that she’s a virgin and in this weird moment where they’re all sitting around like a dining room table in a department store, she’s like, I’m not a virgin.

I don’t even 

Todd: wanna, I don’t even wanna say it. Roll the clip. 

Craig: Cause I don’t even wanna say it. It’s gross. And like why, why? Yeah. And, and she says at the end of it, and I’ve never told anybody about it, ever. Not even my mom. And then she immediately hops in bed with the goofy guy who’s been right. Throwing himself at her all night.

Like, because that all makes sense. 

Todd: That was 

Craig: weird. I mean, not like I care, but, and in fact, remove that weird, gross story and fine. Pop them in bed together. That’s great. I don’t care. But like coming right after this story about how she was like raped when she was 12. Ew. Yeah. That’s not sexy. That’s not like 

Todd: setting a mood.

It treats it kind of lightly, you know? I don’t mean treats it for comedy, I just mean there’s no real respect for. Reality here, the character or you know, any emotional reality. Yeah, because, uh, this woman who didn’t, this girl’s been teased this whole time. It’s kind of nice. I mean, she’s, you know, just sort of, yeah, she’s nice, a pleasant, nice girl, whatever.

Who gets teased a lot now reveals, no, she’s not a virgin. Cuz she was raped by her violin teacher when she was 12 and then, yeah, it’s 12. The guy next to her is like, oh, well I’ll, I like you or whatever. And then they go off and then they have sex and I mean, is this Yeah, the guy 

Craig: supposed, the guy who was her date, he was her date to the costume party and he literally, Was a big dick like that.

Yeah, he was his costume. Yeah. He tried to come onto to her by like, help saying he could ha like cure her of her virginity or something. Her virginity so gross. Like, so he’s set up as a gr like a creep anyway, and then they try to redeem him, like after they bang, he makes a joke and she’s like, yo, you sure have lots of jokes.

And he is like, well, that’s how I cover up my insecurities. And like the movie, the movie, the movie is trying to like, oh, look at these two sweet damaged people. Isn’t that sweet? And then he gets harpooned. Yeah. And I don’t remember what happens to her. 

Todd: She, no, she gets killed. Uh, it’s offscreen though. Yeah, no.

Um. She gets chased or whatever, and then the let, the next time we see her, we see her body being dragged around a 

Craig: corner. That’s right. And then Al then Allison has, and she has a guy and her guy goes off to take a piss or something, and she eventually finds him with his throat cut. And so now she knows that there are dead people.

She goes to tell Kelly and Kelly’s like, oh, okay, well I want to see 

Todd: Kelly goes and finds it, right. Kelly 

Craig: goes and she sees and finds it, okay. And so now we’re getting cl So she tells Allison, cause Allison doesn’t wanna go back and look at the bodies again. She’s like, all right, just go hang out at the security desk and I’ll come and get you.

Well, Allison goes to the security desk and gets slaughtered. Yeah. And then Kelly comes and like, just sees blood everywhere. She’s like, oh no. And then we start, she sees I, I think she, she’s the last 

Todd: one now. Wait a minute though. Yeah, but now in the meantime, it’s been cutting from this to Peter, stupid Peter, who is.

Trying to track him down her down, because once, um, once Heidi has come to him with all of her research, and then he realizes that, uh, her mo her father escaped from the mental institution. He’s trying to find her and he calls the sorority house and there’s no answer at the sorority house because Beth is in the shower.

Yeah. So then he is like, I’m gonna drive to her mom’s place. And he goes to her, he tries to call her mom, but her mom picks up the phone and just lays it down. Right? So now he’s gotta drive out to her mom’s place. So he drives out to her mom’s place and she’s just like, in this weird days, well, it’s 

Craig: because she just found out her husband’s dead.

Right. 

Todd: He just found his body right. But she opens the door, it’s very dramatic. Opens the door, brings them in. She’s just kind of there. He’s like, oh, you need to find, you know what’s going on. She says that he was dead, that he was found on the thing. He’s like, where’s Kelly? She says, I don’t know. She’s gotta be at the place.

Then he calls again from there, and finally Beth is out of the shower. So she’s able now to pick up the phone and say, oh, yeah, they were playing this prank over at, you know, her dad’s, uh, department store. 

Craig: That was the biggest waste of five minutes. He’s 

Todd: like, all right, well I gotta run over there and do that.

You need to call the police and make sure they meet me there. He tells the wife that, I don’t know why he didn’t just call the police real quick or why he 

Craig: just didn’t, 

Todd: that they were going to, he does. So then he leaves and, uh, is heading to the department store. So all this is going on as well. It’s trying to create this moment, I think, of tension where everything’s gonna converge in that store at this point now where Kelly is by herself.

By herself, 

Craig: but she’s also seen somebody dragging one of the bodies around. Mm-hmm. And we’ve seen that it’s that burned guy. Now she still doesn’t have any idea who that is supposedly, but, um, Peter knows that that’s her dad. Okay. Now, at this point, I didn’t know what to think because again, I’m sitting, I’m watching this in my living room.

Alan is sitting behind me, and early on in the movie, I said, I think Daphne Zika did it right? Because she’s never around when somebody gets killed. But she’s always immediately there in the aftermath, like the, like the very next scene she pops in every single time. Mm. And so I, I thought, I think she’s doing it.

She’s crazy. Especially since, uh, they said, She’s got multiple personalities, but then this guy is there and he’s dragging the bodies around. Yeah. I didn’t, I didn’t know, I didn’t know what to think at this point. Yep. Is this, is this when we get to the big reveal that 

Todd: really Almost, almost. Okay. Alright.

They end up on the roof. They end up on the roof, and, uh oh. Right. This man, this burned up man is following her and she’s, uh, they’re kind of at the edge and she picks up a, uh, lead pipe and smacks him and he falls off the roof of this place, which had to be, I don’t know, 20 stories tall, really, really high, up into a bo bunch of cardboard boxes at this moment.

Peter pulls up, comes up, looks at this guy, sees who he is. The guy is still conscious in saying something. And then Peter just leaves him and goes inside. Yeah. God. So then he goes inside, so he’s inside looking for her, and so she comes down off the roof. She thinks that it’s over because she’s knocked this guy off the top.

Craig: Does she get hit or something? I don’t remember how it comes about. No, no. 

Todd: Peter. Peter comes in. Yeah, right. Oh, right, 

Craig: right. He comes in and he goes to her and he like embraces her and they’re like, oh, it’s over, or whatever. And then she stabs him and I was like, I knew it. Yeah. I knew it was her. It was crazy.

And then in my notes, I have. Wait, there’s two of them. Mm-hmm. Now, I don’t have any problem with a good evil twin story. That’s fine. But this pisses me off because there was nothing, nothing to suggest that we might, there are the 

Todd: barest of hints in retrospect. What? This is where the doll thing comes in.

Okay. I don’t get it. She didn’t tear the heads off her dolls. Her sister tore the heads off her dolls, and I think, I didn’t bother to do this, but they keep making this big deal about the mirrors or whatever. I suppose if you went back and looked at her dream uhhuh, you would see that she is looking in mirrors and instead of seeing herself, that’s actually her sister in the mirror.

Okay. Because she’s in the hallway and then suddenly she’s stabbing her dad. Okay. Okay. That was actually her sister. So I mean, but try to decode that. In the process, it’s never gonna happen. They’re not strong enough hints. And then her mom, at one point, like when, when, uh, Peter leaves her, uh, to go to the mall and she’s supposed to call the police, she makes a comment that says, It’s happening again.

Yeah. But that 

Craig: could be anything. It could be like, that could be diarrhea. Like

it could be, I mean, it’s a very ominous line you’re talking about. Right? I get it. Yeah. I get in retrospect that she’s talking about. Um, 

Todd: but I, I have so many questions though. They’re presumably still living in the same community. Like how do you keep all this hidden from the rest of the community? Oh, right, right.

How does anybody, you, you know, there’s this murder, there was this guy who was in the flames and he was put in a mental institution. All this shit’s reported in the paper. Her new husband, uh, who was the guy that, you know, she was banging that got stabbed right. Is like this super important guy who’s got this giant department store.

Suddenly they were able to concoct this story that she fell out of the treehouse and then she lost her memory and they just made her forget. She had a sister and nobody ever else ever brought this up to her. Yeah. Ever. Yeah. Like. What? It doesn’t make sense. So it’s, it turns out not only did this man escape from the mental institution, but her twin sister was there too.

And I think that woman who we never saw her face, who was staring down at the window at the man, remember who starts kind of pounding her fist against, uh, against her leg. Yeah. That inmate, I think that’s supposed to have been her twin sister. Oh. And yeah. But then back at the 

Craig: asylum, back, back at the asylum.

Yeah. Early, early on in the very first asylum scene. 

Todd: Yeah. I didn’t, it’s both of them, you know, escape from the asylum and, uh, she makes a comment to Daphne. Well, they’re both Daphne and Niga, by the way. She did a great job of playing both sides of this. Oh my God. 

Craig: The crazy one was, Hilarious. It was great.

It was hilarious. Well, it was 

Todd: hilarious. I mean, what do you expect from this movie though? 

Craig: It was really funny. I really, really enjoyed it. Uh, it was funny. And they got her made up funny, like, like Oh yeah. With bags under her eyes and her hair and little 

Todd: scraggly, I think she looks, looks different. 

Craig: You know?

Looks, yeah. They’ve like, boo ratified her. It’s funny. That’s right. Oh my God. But she explains, she’s like, I don’t even know what she says, but she’s like, daddy was cleaning up after me after like, oh my God. So, right. So like all of that killer, p o v, that was her, she was the killer. The dad was just trailing around behind her, like cleaning up the mess.

Which again, that’s so dumb. I know it is really stupid. No, no. It would make a lot more sense if the dad, I don’t know, maybe he was doing 

Todd: it for her or something. Right. 

Craig: Or right doing it for her, or if he were trying to get ahead of her Mm. To get to Kelly, that would make sense. To warn her or something, or, yeah.

But just trailing along behind her doesn’t really make any sense. Well, 

Todd: I just wanna know then, what was the dad’s motivation? What was his thing through this whole thing? I don’t know. So he’s escaped, but he’s cleaning up after his daughter, maybe because he loves her. He is trying to protect her. Okay. But then he’s also trying to maybe get ahead of her, at least when it comes to his other daughter and warn her.

Right. Are we supposed to, to think that when he was coming after her on the roof, he really wanted to warn her, or I guess, I guess there’s no way to 

Craig: know. Well, I mean, I guess you could, it kind of makes sense that he would. Be protective of the crazy one because the crazy one is the one who stabbed his like nemesis or whatever.

Yeah. They were so, they were kind of, they were kind of playing on the same team. And if I, this is so stupid, why are we speculating about this? The it, but like, and then if they had been in that asylum together, maybe he was watching out over her there too. 

Todd: Yeah. Maybe they were both just in cahoots and they both wanted her sister dead as well.

Maybe. And, and why? I don’t really know, I don’t know, really understand what their motivation was for going on this crazy killing spree of all of her friends and shit. Why weren’t they just cutting to the chase 

Craig: that, right. That doesn’t even make any sense. Like, okay, so her name is never mentioned in the movie, but she’s credited.

The evil one is credited as Terry and Terry says that her, what she’s gonna do, she’s gonna kill Kelly cuz she’s pissed off. Like Kelly got this great life. She was rich and had everything she ever wanted. And Terry says that she, I’m going to kill you and I’m gonna. Steal your identity basically. Right.

But if, if that was what wanted to do, right? Well, why would she kill all of her 

Todd: friends? Yeah. Either way you’ve got a body to get rid of, right? Like Yeah. It’s not a case of where, because she makes it sound like she’s, she’s setting her up. Well, she’s setting her dad up, is what she’s doing. Right? She’s like, now, yeah.

Right. He’ll take the fuck. Everyone’s gonna think that daddy killed all these people and I’m gonna kill you and then hide you, I guess. And then I’m gonna take your place. Well, why didn’t you just go and kill her and take her place? Right. And that’s the easiest 

Craig: thing to do. Well, cuz she’s crazy. I don’t know.

It’s, yeah, that’s it. It’s funny. It would be, it would’ve been a much, much shorter movie if shorter movie. Right. Um, and that may have been okay. But anyway, so, so the crazy one’s got the pretty one, the crazy one. The crazy one’s got the pretty one down on the ground and it looks like she’s gonna kill her.

And then Terry is shot from behind and I didn’t know who this was gonna be, but it ends up being, The mother, which I actually kind of liked. Yeah, I liked that too. And then it seemed like maybe the mother and Kelly could I, I don’t know, repair their relationship 

Todd: and lives. She’s making things right. Right.

Craig: Making things right. Exactly. Yeah. But then it cuts outside to show us that Peter is still alive, even though he got stabbed in the gut with like a 12 inch knife. Um, and the dad is still alive now. I don’t think that that was a 20 story building, but I would say probably at least six or eight stories. And I am just, I, a movie is never gonna convince me that you can fall off an eight story building into a pile of trash and just be fine.

Like, right. It’s, I don’t believe it, but that’s the end. The end. Yeah. 

Todd: What a movie. It’s, oh, and then the end credits music was the same four bars repeated over and over again at different octaves. I thought, uh, I don’t know if it was as distracting for you as it was for me anyway. There were lots of things 

Craig: that were distracting.

One of the things that was distracting in this movie was that the, uh, opening credits were just white lettering on black background. And it went on for what felt like, oh yeah. A 

Todd: week. Felt like they were stretching for time more than anything. I know. And 

Craig: then another thing that bothered me is there were some scenes in the movie that were out of focus Oh yeah.

For a while. And, and other scenes where they were clearly just showing us a frame of Yeah. Something. And it was really telephone evidence or something. Mm-hmm. Well, and even like, um, one of the guys who died, who got his, uh, throat cut, you see him a couple of times, but it’s just a freeze frame. Of him. Yeah.

It calls itself out like Yeah, it’s obvious. Like if, if, if this was the only print you had of this scene where these two girls are talking about nothing important and you didn’t have it in focus, cut it out. Like Yeah, 

Todd: don’t the lack of focus just put it in several, more than, once more than once on something where, yeah, like you said, two people are right there in the foreground talking about something and they are out of focus the whole time.

It’s really surprising. The movie, I think it, it had two directors originally. There was a guy named Peter Crane, who’s a UK director who was brought in, uh, originally for the project and then he was kind of going over budget real, real fast and they said that he had this sort of European sensibility about him.

He was trying to do. Cool funky camera angles and things like that, and was just wasting a lot of time and money when they needed something that was just a little more pedestrian mainstream slasher formula. And that’s when they brought in, uh, Larry Stewart. Uh, yeah, but 

Craig: whoever they were, the producers or whoever made that decision, I think they made the wrong decision.

I think that, I think that this movie would’ve worked a lot better if it had been more like, Stylist, the Italian Slashers. Um, yes, I a 

Todd: hundred percent agree with you. In fact, I think, I think that was something that they had said was like, this is too diallo and we just needed to be more standard American.

And that’s when they booted him off. But they kept a lot of his stuff in there. And you can tell from what I read, the, the earlier stuff in the sorority house with the, you know, the estate and a lot of the POV stuff was from him. And yo you can tell it’s stylistically it’s very different from the rest of the movie.

You know, uh, it’s very different from shopping mall in that I think shopping mall is so fun because it gets right into the action. Yes, there’s a lot of people to kill off and they’re being pursued the whole time. Whereas this is just over an hour of soap opera storyline, A few random people get killed.

Uh, but. We don’t care about them and we don’t know what’s going on. We’re, and not in interesting ways. Well, and, and the effect the blood. There’s no good gore effects in here at all. 

Craig: Uh, what we saw didn’t bother me. I thought it looked fine. I mean, it was just blood. 

Todd: Well, that’s what I mean. There was no, you know, this is what these movies kind of like, that’s a box they often have to check.

Like we’ve got the Prowler, you know, which is a movie that doesn’t really have a lot going for it, except the gore effects are freaking amazing. So I just felt like, uh, a movie like this might have, uh, tried harder in that department. 

Craig: Right. I get it. And it was almost like, it was kind of like they tried to, to shake things up, but in just the most boring.

I don’t know, like nonsensical. Well, it, it like, okay, so his, his regular m mo the killer’s regular M mo is that Garden fork, but he can cut one guy’s head off with a machete that must have just been laying around in the driveway. And um, he can shoot somebody with a crossbo and he can shoot somebody with a harpoon and he can, is a gun, get somebody in the back with an ax and mm-hmm.

But it’s just like, grab bag it. Yeah. It doesn’t, there’s no. Sense to it. There’s no logic to it. It’s just, I guess because there’s a sporting good store in the mall. He has access to all these things, but it’s just, it’s not like I, I feel like they were maybe trying to make the kills more creative, but they’re not.

I, I’ve seen every single one of them before. It’s just a hodgepodge of things from other movies. 

Todd: Well, he must have been working in cahoots with her because there were definitely moments where there was a man there who was trying to grab the girls and who was killing them. For sure. Like he crawled into the elevator at one point, remember?

Yeah, vaguely. So, I mean, I don’t know. I was 

Craig: bored. Me too. I had it playing on one computer screen and I’m typing my notes on the other computer screen and you know, maybe. Flipping over to something else on my computer. Yeah. Like, cuz it just, it was, uh, it was all right. I don’t wanna dog it too much because it’s not terrible.

It’s, we’ve, we’ve seen worse. We’ve seen worse slashers, we’ve seen lazier films. Um, it’s, it’s just. Okay. It’s a very typical 1980s slasher. There’s really not much special about it except for that Daphne Sunga is in it, and she’s pretty and cute and I like her. But other than that, yeah, it’s ju it’s not memorable there.

It’s not at 

Todd: all. It’s boring. Memorable. Yeah. Boring. That’s the worst thing, right? If you’re an hour into the movie and you’re kind of bored and you’re like, I thought I was watching a slasher. When’s a slashing gonna happen? It’s not good when you’re watching your, when you’re checking your watch an hour in, and I sure was.

But uh, anyway, thank you very much for Leah and, uh, Gary, for recommending this to us. Thank you to all of our patrons for, uh, selecting it. It was definitely on our list. We, I was super excited. Had very high hopes for this movie. Still glad to have seen it. Still enjoyed watching Daphne Zuniga up there.

Yeah. I mean, as well as like, uh, Vera Miles, you know? Yeah. I liked her. It was cool to see her in there. So yeah, there’s, it had a few things just, but anyway, this is why we watch these and this is why we value requests from you guys as well, cuz we’ll often get to see movies we wouldn’t have picked out by ourselves.

And that means that next week we’re gonna be doing The Funhouse, which is directed by Toby Hooper. Another film I haven’t seen, but uh, has been on my list for quite a while and I’m really excited to watch it. So we’ll see how that turns out. If you enjoyed this podcast episode, please share it with a friend.

Uh, you can find us online just by googling two guys in a chainsaw podcast. Join our patron community and, uh, help us pick out these movies so we have nice little conversations going on, uh, on our Patreon page, patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. I’ve actually started posting some little snippets, little previews that you can see of the minisodes that we do, uh, a few times a month.

Just just to give you a little taste and maybe, uh, convince you that maybe you need to, uh, to become a patron. Support us, uh, join the community and get access to those full episodes that we put out every month. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Bill Paxton and Bill Pullman team up as colleagues (or rivals?) in a Corman-produced oddity of 1990. We do our best to decode and parse out this low-budget Lynch-ian flick, directed by Adam Simon, the soon-to-be director of rental store shelf staple, Carnosaur. Check it out!

Brain Dead (1990)

Episode 347, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, this week’s episode comes to you almost by accident. Really? Yep. Last week’s episode. Uh, I texted Craig and, uh, it was my turn to choose and I said, I wanna do brain damage. I gave him a link to the movie, everything I could possibly do except sit in the same room and push play in front of him.

And, uh, It turns out when we got on to record, you know, it’s, it’s okay. It happens to all of us. He misheard what I had said on email or whatever, and he ended up watching Brain Dead. Now, this is not Peter Jackson’s Brain Dead, which we’ve already done, which by which in the US goes by the title Dead Alive.

Mm-hmm. Which is an awesome movie, and you should totally go and listen to our episode on it. Mm-hmm. I freaking love that movie. But no, this was, um, a 1990 film called Brain Dead. Starring Bill Paxton and Bill Pullman. So random. Yeah, it’s so random. But you know, the funny thing about it is, is I was super excited.

So Craig went and watched last week, and then we came back to Brain Dead. We said, well, since you’ve already seen, you’ve taken notes on, I’ll watch it too. But I was excited because it was on my list. It had been on my list, and so I was like, good. At least now we have an excuse to, to knock another one off.

So I, I was really happy to watch it anyway because I had never seen it before, but it keeps popping up in my purview for some reason. And I’ve just been utterly fascinated by the fact that it stars Bill, bill Paxton and Bill Pullman. And I pretty sure that when Bill Paxton died, this was one of the movies we almost did, probably ended up doing, uh, was it near dark or no?

No, it was, um, Well, I don’t know. I, we did, 

Craig: we did Frailty. 

Todd: Yeah. We’ve done a couple frailty. Mm-hmm. We did Near Dark. Uh, I don’t remember what we did when he died, but anyway, at least I was definitely considering this movie when we died because it’s a Corman produced production. And by Corman, I think most of our longtime listeners, uh, and people who are well versed in the horror community and are just into the same things we are.

They know Roger Corman. Inside and out. The infamous director of, I don’t know, we call them be pictures. He says he never made a bee picture. You know, technically that’s true, but, you know, low budget features gave tons and tons of, now big name people. Uh, their first break in Hollywood never made a movie that didn’t make money and is still going strong producing films.

Mm-hmm. His wife, Julie Corman, who I believe he married in 1970, ended up going also producing movies for his company, and in fact, I think started her own company, but, In, uh, 1980, uh, 1990 ish, she had sent a bunch of interns into their vaults to go through a whole bunch of old scripts and figure out, is there anything here we can use or we can update or whatever, and we can produce.

And someone found this script from a guy named Charles Beaumont. I feel like I’m gonna go on a, a long rant here, uh, because there’s so many No, I wanna know. Well, there’s so many interesting people behind the scenes of this movie that I just feel like we have to call it out. Charles Beaumont. Uh, Very, very prolific writer of the fifties and sixties who has a very interesting story.

This guy ended up writing quite a few classic Twilight Zone episodes, wrote a lot of speculative fiction, sci-fi. You know, he’s a peer of like Ray Bradbury and, and Robert Bloch, and Harlan Ellison, and was widely respected and admired by those people. Wrote a ton of scripts for television and Hollywood.

Many of which weren’t produced, but he was. He was constantly writing. He had wild, crazy ideas. In 1954, Playboy magazine selected his story, Black Country, to be the first work of short fiction to appear. In Playboy magazine. Huh. Which is kind of incredible. I, I don’t know, for people today, like who even knows like what, what play?

Playboy magazine even isn’t even out. And most people when they think about Playboy, they’re like, oh yeah, there’s Girly Men’s Magazine that had lots of boobies and nude pictures. Which is true. Yeah. But it was also a very respectable magazine to get your fiction published in. Yeah. I mean, it. There’s, you’re no slouch.

Stephen King got a start in Playboy magazine. Yeah. So his short story was the first to be published in Playboy magazine. Yeah. That’s impressive. It’s really impressive. So, I mean, the, the pedigree is great and sadly, Sadly, in his mid thirties, he developed this sort of mysterious brain condition. He, he was known as a heavy drinker, but all of his peers said, no.

Look, it, it’s, it’s not the drinking that’s caused this. This is, this is beyond that. Uh, and the doctors couldn’t figure out what it was, but it was almost done. Sort of an Alzheimer’s type thing, but just where he became almost nonfunctional. And so he would, he had tons of writing assignments and he’d go into meetings with producers and things, and, and he just couldn’t hold his own, you know, he’d be practically incoherent by the end of it.

And so it, it was just a very, very sad decline. And he ended up dying when he was 38. Oh geez. I know. Just a beautiful mind cut short by disease and, uh, really, really sad, but, Even still by the age of 38, left an incredible body of work. Really interesting stuff. Um, you should go back and read some of it, honestly.

I’m going to. But anyway, he died in 1967, well before this movie was produced in, uh, in 1990. But he had written a script for Roger Corman way back in the sixties, and they dug it up and a guy named Adam Simon, who directed this, uh, decided to take it on and he updated it for the modern era. But, uh, boy, it’s an interesting, uh, concept and an interesting movie.

While we’re talking history of the film, I might as well talk a little bit about Adam Simon. Adam Simon. Uh, this was one of his first films. He, he directed some films for Roger Corman. Um, the later one that he did just a couple years after this, I think it was in 1993, was Carnosso. Oh 

Craig: yeah. I, I mean, I remember seeing it on the shelves, but I, I like this movie, saw it on the shelves, but never, never watched 

Todd: it.

I, I feel like you’re one of the few. I think Carnosaur, like everybody rented in 1993, it was definitely on the shelves. It was, it was obviously kind of on the heels of Jurassic Park. Right. So much like Roger Corman liked to do, you know, it was kind of a, I don’t wanna say knockoff cuz that’s not fair, but, you know, he released a killer dinosaur movie.

Yeah. And Jurassic Park was popular and, and it, it did, it did gangbusters for them. So, uh, Carnosaur is quite notorious. I saw it once. I remember it as being very entertaining. Um, and so, yeah, and, and, uh, if you’ve seen the Robert Altman movie, The Player mm-hmm. Which stars? Um, oh, what’s his name? Robbins, uh, Tim Timothy Robbins.

God, I love that movie. And there’s an opening sequence in that movie, which is, Pretty famous in its own right. That’s one of those like really, really long shots and it takes you through like a Hollywood studio while people are pitching things and there’s just kind of all kinds of chaos going on, as is often in Robert Altman movies.

He, he has a little bit of a star turn in that he is the producer who’s pitching a a story to, uh, The studio heads there and then gets kicked out of the studio. It’s kind of the director of this movie is in it. Yeah, the director of this movie. Yeah. Adam Simons. Gotcha. So it’s, it’s interesting. So, yeah, so Adam Simon, uh, took this on, and then here we get Bill Pullman and Bill Paxton.

This is a post-After Dark, post-Aliens Bill Paxton. I think shortly before he went on to do Twister and stuff, he was already, I think, a pretty well established star by this point. This is a pre-Independence Day Bill Pullman. Yeah. I think it was, what, 93 or so? 94 maybe that Independence Day came out. So these two guys in this movie alone will turn your head, right?

Yeah. In retrospect at least. And so yeah, it was shot on a quite a low budget of, of $1.5 million. And here we have Brain Dead, and I have talked too much. Have you seen this movie before, 

Craig: Craig? No. No, I’ve never seen it, but. I, I really did feel bad when we sat down to record for brain damage and I had to be like, uh, I watched the wrong movie, but it had never occurred to me that I might be watching the wrong movie because this so Seemed like something that you would pick.

Oh yeah. I was like, oh, this is, obviously Todd would pick this movie. I didn’t have any history with it. I did see it on the shelves. I remember the box art because it was just like a disembodied, stretched out face. Yeah, 

Todd: it’s intriguing, which 

Craig: is in like the first five minutes of the movie and really has nothing to do with the rest of it 

Todd: Is the best shot that could come up with that.

I know you 

Craig: th like, you think it’s gonna be a movie about this. You know, this face, like that’s the, that’s the monster. Uh, it remind, I’m not even a Dr. Who fan, but there’s like a Dr who villain that’s, you know, had so much cosmetic surgery. It’s just a big skin on a tarp. Uh, it reminds me of that, oh, it reminded 

Todd: me of Brazil.

You remember the kind of a famous scene in Brazil where the woman’s standing there and she’s getting her skin stretched, like, No. Maybe you never saw that? 

Craig: No, I don’t think I did. Okay. But this, yeah, no, I don’t have any history with it. I hadn’t seen it and, It’s so weird. Like everything about it is weird.

You, you mentioned the author, the story. So Yeah, like you said, the producer’s wife set out these interns to find scripts and this was the best one that they could find, and I could see how that could be because it seems like a really ambitious script. And I think that if you put. This script or you know, a version of it in the hands of like a Christopher Nolan who had a huge budget and Oh yeah.

And could do all kinds of like, twisty, interstellar, uh, effects or I think that it could still work cuz it re uh, I don’t know. It’s a unique story. Um, it reminded me of a lot of different movies. The fact that the bills. Are in It is just kind of bizarre, especially now that you’ve told me that they had both been working for a while.

I think maybe they hadn’t had their huge breaks yet, but they were fairly established. It almost just seems weird that they would take on such a low budget film and, and whoa. And even just watching it, you’re like, what are you doing here? That’s not to say. That I don’t like the movie. I actually think it’s really interesting.

It’s not to say that I don’t think that they are well cast or that they shouldn’t be there. It’s just odd to see these actors who would become such prominent forces in Hollywood in just a couple of years. To see them here. To 

Todd: be fair, bill Paxton also kind of came up through Roger Corman’s studio like so many famous actors did.

Yeah. And so I mean it by then, by now he’s graduated. Right. But I think that a lot of these guys will, will come back and, and surely feel an obligation to, you know, oh yeah, I’ll, I’ll go back and star cuz it’s a ton of fun and I might not make a lot of money, but you know, I’m making a movie and maybe I’ll meet some interesting people.

I Sure. I think Bill Paxton was, I think his first job in Hollywood, I could be wrong about this, but one of his first jobs in Hollywood was working alongside James Cameron on one of his first jobs in Hollywood working the, um, set design for Battle Beyond the Stars for Corman. And so yeah, I think we’ve talked about that before.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I mean, and I, I, I read something and I think it was recently I read where somebody was talking about the effects on a movie. I can’t remember which movie it was, but it was a Corman movie and somebody had said, Why are you this nice, well established effects artist who’s worked on big budget movies, coming back and working on this lame, low budget corpsman film, and he was like, well, number one, it’s a paycheck.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It’s three weeks of solid work for me and this is Corman, and I’m gonna get to meet all these other PE up and coming people. He saw it as a networking opportunity. You know? Sure. Uh, cuz Corman had that reputation. He recognized talent he gave them. Opportunities and, you know, they had all meshed together and, and many of them would go on to greatness and so yeah.

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I can see why Bill Paxton might come back to this. Yeah. For well, and, and who 

Craig: knows, you know, maybe just cuz it sounded fun. I, I, who knows? It’s just from a pop culture standpoint, it’s just kind of odd to see these guys Yeah. Who would both become pretty big stars in this little movie.

But, uh, like I said, I do think it’s an ambitious movie. It’s got an interesting story. It’s weird. It is trippy. It is a trippy movie. I, how do you want to, 

Todd: I don’t know, because I was thinking about this too. You know, we, we, we’ve said this at, at the beginning of many podcasts, we’re like, we’re really not sure how we’re gonna talk about it, right?

Because it doesn’t really follow this linear framework that’s easy to kind of lay out the plot. I, I took a lot of notes on this movie, and I think most of my notes were plot. Because I wanted to be able to remember it because I knew I wouldn’t be able to because, cause it’s kind of abstract and speculative and Yeah.

Lynching in, in a way it’s 

Craig: challenging. Absolutely. It’s definitely Lynch in, 

Todd: I’m gonna put it right out in front. Uh, I think when I was younger and fresh eyed and, you know, the world was, Super interesting. I was into like esoteric things and challenging myself. This is the kind of movie that I really would’ve liked, right?

I probably would’ve sat up late at night afterwards with my friends trying to decode it and Parson figure out, well, what were they trying to say? What, what did it mean? Like what’s the, was this real or was that real? Or was this just a dream? Or, but it’s not at the level of sophistication that, for example, something like, uh, you mentioned Christopher Nolan, like inception.

Right where you kind of feel compelled to debate about it because you feel like you might decode something. I feel like this movie is the kind of movie, and maybe it’s just cuz I’m 45, I have like a little less patience for it because I don’t really give a rat’s ass, you know? I’m like, okay, it’s this ambiguous thing.

And is this a dream or is it not? I don’t really care. Can you tell me, please? Oh, you can’t. All right, I’m done. You know, like I don’t think I have the patience to try to parse this plot out, to figure out what was reality and what wasn’t. I, I’m not even sure there is an answer. Well, that’s 

Craig: probably why you took so many notes is because so much is going on that you watching it the first time, you don’t know what of this, do I need to be paying attention to?

What of this is going to be significant later on? And ultimately, Not much because the, the answer is pretty simple. But is it though still? I, yeah, 

Todd: I think so. Maybe you figured it out. I, I don’t know. I don’t know. I, I’m a little, I’m second guessing myself, so. All right. 

Craig: Well, I, I think that the plot’s really simple.

Uh, so Bill Pullman, hi is Dr. Martin. He does research on brains. He’s got, um, a whole lab full of brains in glass jars, literally. Yeah, and his assistant, he and his assistant are doing these tests on this brain where they’re like prodding it with something and they’ve got that like stretched out face, you know, that is like reacting, like they’re mapping the attached to it brain for.

Facial movements or whatever. By 

Todd: the way, this itself should be a movie. This is so remarkable that it is so just brushed over like, oh, this is just another one of his contraptions in his lap. Like, no, this is kind of amazing. Like you have a face that that is hooked up to a brain and a jar that is reacting to you probing it that yeah.

Can happen. 

Craig: And, and what I’ll say for this scene is that it, it sets it. Up. Well because it’s like, oh, okay, we’re, we’re into like some mad scientist ReAnimator, maybe Lovecraftian type of thing. This is, this is what we’re doing. And ultimately it is kind of that, but. That image is just left behind. Like, oh, that 

Todd: that was the thing.

We 

Craig: never seen that. Yeah, right. It never really anything like it again. I mean, we do see more brain poking later, so I guess, okay, keep going. Get to the 

Todd: more brain poking. Well, it has to be said like you kind of glazed over it too, but like this guy has shelves of literal brains in jars in this, I mean, it is classic mad scientist and his assistant is almost his classic Igor.

Yeah. I mean, in the first. Five minutes of the movie, he’s asked to retrieve a brain. He climbs up on a ladder, tries to get a brain from a jar, immediately fumbles one, and it falls down and breaks, I mean, That’s like straight out of Frankenstein. Well, y y 

Craig: right? But, and there’s also a bunch of dialogue like Dr.

Martin is like chastising his assistant for not giving proper reverence to each of these brains because each of them was an individual person, a living entity, and each, you know, deserves his respect and like, Martin like talks to them

as though they can hear him. Yeah. Which is weird. But beyond that, he doesn’t really seem crazy. Maybe a little eccentric. No, sure. But you know, just a scientist, whatever. And then it cuts to an exterior shot of the building. And it looked to me just almost exactly like one of the dreams from Dreamscape when Yes, uh, the main character finds himself on top of a tall building and I just, I noticed it in that moment, but then continuing to watch through it, it reminded me stylistically a lot of dreams scape because, Much of it seems very dreamlike.

Yeah. In the way that it’s shot, in the way that it’s lit with kind of ethereal music in the background and stuff. Sometimes it’s, it’s. I don’t know. It reminded me quite a bit of that movie, actually, 

Todd: let me say that in retrospect, looking back at this opening of it, and like you said that, and the scene with him and the face and the brains and all that stuff, if I’m gonna give this movie a lot of credit, I almost feel like, I’m not even sure if this is real.

I’m wondering if they’re setting us up right now in a dream scape, right. 

Craig: And it 

Todd: could be because it’s so campy and unrealistic that it’s either just this super campy, low budget movie that’s asking a lot of us to swallow, or it’s deliberately trying to clue us in that this is not real. This is kind of dream.

Well, it’s either 

Craig: deliberately trying to clue us into that, or it’s deliberately trying to mislead us into thinking that, and you don’t really know. I mean ultimately ever. I guess I do think that there is an explanation, but I couldn’t be wrong. But anyway, whatever. Uh oh, his friend comes, well, yeah, his friend comes, but just before that he’s like standing, gazing out the window and, uh, his receptionist or his secretary, or says, Something says, are you okay Dr.

Martin? And he says, nothing, a little brain surgery wouldn’t take care of. And I did, did not catch that line at all. The first time around, I watched the, I re-watched the first half hour this morning to refresh my memory. Um, and that I was like, I didn’t notice that the first 

Todd: time. Oh, interesting. 

Craig: Right.

This to that, his friend comes, um, the other Bill Paxton, his name is Reston and Jim Reston, and they are, uh, high school friends or college friends or something. They went to school together. They were rivals over a girl who ended up marrying. Bill Pullman, but they’re also friends and rest. I don’t know.

There’s, I, I wrote down these weird lines like there, but by the grace of God, go, I, I was just thinking that about you. Showboat.

The universe is just don’t dream by the perception of illusion. We experience reality. The inscrutable professor ang, ah, see the liberal arts course pays off after all, and then they just carry on a conversation as though that would be a normal. Like they don’t continue talking about that. They just care.

Continue on in conversation as though what they just said was a totally normal thing to say. So 

Todd: weird. Yeah. I felt like it was like, I feel like this was a fault of the script. It felt a little pseudo intellectual, you know, like, like they’re parlaying with each other on technical terms and things that they both already understand, but.

It comes across as a little silly and written. I think 

Craig: it does. It totally does. And it just, it was, to me, it just left me like scratching my head like, what, what are you talking about? Where did that come from? And, and, and then of course, you know, watching, knowing this is a movie, I’m like, I guess I better write that down.

Like, is that gonna be, is that gonna be, or there gonna be like more wet dream references? I. Oh gosh. Okay, so Reston tells Martin about this guy. Reston works for this, uh, company, this corporation called Eunice. Um, and he says they have this employee called named Halsey, and uh, he was. I don’t know, a scientist or something, and it’s really unclear.

Todd: I think here 

Craig: he was working on this really important project and he came up with this really, really important equation and that he, Reston just keeps saying, I need those numbers. I need those numbers. But then this guy, Halsey, apparently went nuts and killed his whole family and now is catatonic and, and or, or crazy.

Like he’s just insane. And he’s in a loony bin and Reston wants Martin to go. I guess Martin’s specialty is paranoia, like that’s, he’s figuring out how paranoia works in the brain or whatever. So he asks, Reston asks him to go talk to this Halsey and Martin is reluctant at first, but ultimately he goes, and there’s this wackadoodle scene in the.

Loony Ben, I guess. Mm-hmm. Where he walks in and a woman is like doing a ballet and singing. Like, look at me, I’m dancing. Oh, I’m dancing. Look at me. 

Todd: It’s so like, uh, what happening? We’ve talked about this before, how these movies show Sanitariums is just these like, just like a Willy Wonka type places of crazy people just watering around doing nutso things out in the open.

Uh, it’s a little silly, but, 

Craig: but again, here it’s so surreal. Yeah. That you wonder, is this even real, like, is it, as we’ve seen a bazillion times, a stupid portrayal of what an insane asylum looks like? Or is it intentionally heightened? Because, yeah, it’s not. Real. Right. And, and, and the music. Uh, this part I have written down that the style and the music reminded me a lot of tales from the crypt because this whole transaction, it seems like between Ralston or whatever his name is, and, and Martin, and trying to find the numbers and there being these high stakes, it felt very much.

Like it’s hails from the crypt plot. Oh. And stylistic, like, 

Todd: we’re getting right to the meat of it, and it’s kind of, uh, all hyped 

Craig: and, and Right, right. And, you know, there’s, I anticipate there’s gonna be some twist, you know, this, this innocent, uh, Dr. Martin is getting sent into this project. He doesn’t really know what he’s getting into.

And, uh, it’s, it’s gonna be weird. Well, and ultimately it is, I guess, 

Todd: The movie calls our attention to some odd things too. Um, I don’t remember if it’s now or if it’s a little later where he’s walking in and there’s a bum who approaches him and this guy, like, that’s later. 

Craig: Oh, is it? Okay. It’s, it’s after he talks to, uh, Halsey, cuz he talks to Halsey and Halsey’s like, ah, yeah.

Uh, there’s this. Conlan is out to get me, and, uh, he’s here in the hospital and he’s trying to kill me, and he, he screwed my wife, uh, right there on the factory floor. And, um, he’s obviously crazy and paranoid, but I don’t know. He, you don’t really know what’s going on. Um, Reston. One. So he goes to la Okay. So I say he goes to Lakeside to see him and then he does do some tests on him.

And he does find the paranoia mal or paranoia abnormality in his brain. And Reston basically says, well, can you cut that out? And uh, Martin says, well, maybe I can. And it might work. He might get all of his memories back. He might get those numbers back and Reston says, well, what’s the other alternative?

And he says, well, he may lose everything. But ultimately that, that’s good for the corporation. They’re fine with either. Yeah, right. They’re fine with either, because if, if they can’t get the numbers back, at least there’s no risk of somebody else getting ahold of him. And then I feel like this is the point where he walks out and he’s carrying a brain in a jar.

And you’re right, this homeless guy. Accost him. It’s like, that’s my fucking brain. No. Yes. My fucking brain. No, it’s my brain. Sir, there must be some mistake. There’s no mistake in my brain. My brain, that’s my brain. My brain. No, you have own brain. Fucking brain. Mine. Fucking, I’m afraid that it is mine. The brain.

I don’t know how this happens, but. Dr. Martin ends up getting thrown in front of a truck. He gets hit by the truck, his head gets smashed on the windshield. You see blood and you see the br, the brain jar shatter and the brain smash in the street. And then Martin, just like, he’s just like back at his office, 

Todd: right?

Yeah. There the Conlan company is some logo on the side of this car. 

Craig: Yes. Yes. And that’s the guy that Halsey had said was trying to kill him. Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And you’re right. And now, um, Martin is suddenly walking down the hallway to his lab and 

Craig: like nothing happened. And, and yeah, it’s, it’s weird. It’s like the moo.

You feel like you missed something like, like there’s a missing scene or something because Yeah, like, because he’s, he, he’s fine. There, there’s just no explanation. It’s, it’s weird. 

Todd: Yeah. But, but when he gets to his lab, there’s this new guy, Ellis, who’s taken over it, and I mean, it’s obvi. He’s like, sorry to hear about your grant.

Like he’s lost his grant and now he’s taking over and he’s talking about how, uh, his grant’s been doubled meanwhile, and he needs to clear the shelf space, so he’s gonna get rid of all the brains. It’s, it’s kind of over acted evil guy stuff. It’s very heightened. And the assistant ends up pulling down all the shelves.

It’s, it’s like an accident or something, but all the shelves come down and all the brains and things shatter and then, Suddenly Martin wakes up 

Craig: on his couch at home, and now at the, from this point forward, we’re going to keep saying and then suddenly wakes up. That’s right. Because that’s what it feels like.

Like you have a scene and then it just jumps to another scene. Yeah. At one point you see a whole scene and then. It jumps back and you see it again like mm-hmm. I couldn’t, it’s so surreal the way that it, and I had no idea what was going on. He wakes up on his couch, his wife is like, are you okay? And he’s like, yeah, sorry.

I j I, I’m just a little bit out of it from the accident earlier. And she’s like, what accident? And he said, well, I, I had an accident, I think. And then they just don’t talk about it. Yeah. Anymore. Yeah. And then he goes back. He goes back to the corporation that has Halsey and he does the phlebotomy. And this phlebotomy is so stupid.

Like it’s really dumb. It’s hilarious. It’s hilarious. It’s in a white surgical theater behind a two-way mirror. Uh, so that this board of people can, in ance room, in a conference room, can watch this happening. And like the phlebotomy itself is, he has taken the whole top part of Halsey’s skull off. So his brain is just sitting there like it’s in a fruit bowl and 

Todd: he just, Walks in, doesn’t wash up, doesn’t do anything.

He just walks in, puts a coat on, and goes to work. 

Craig: And just, well, and just pokes at it. Like that’s, that’s all, it just pokes at it. Um, and like Halsey’s, face, like twitches and he smiles and sometimes he laughs like depending on where he is getting poked. And it, depending on where he gets poked. We see from Halsey’s perspective that his environment changes and the people around change, like the things that the doctor and the people, like the corporate people are saying to him and asking him.

He’s hearing all that, but it might be coming. Threw somebody else in his mind. Like for example, he sees like two 

Todd: Victorian 

Craig: ladies, two Victorian ladies, or his family that he supposedly killed or that he says somebody else killed. It’s very surreal and trippy and like ultimately when I was watching it the first time, I didn’t think much of it and then thinking more about it and I thought, I don’t know.

That’s kind of cool and ambitious. It is, especially since it seems like. At one point, Dr. Martin asks him, are you still concerned about this Conlan guy? And he’s like, yeah. And he says, is, is Conlan here? Yeah. Can you see him? No. And then ultimately he says, I can see him now. And it’s this really creepy image of this guy in all white, in this stark white room.

But like he and the corner he’s standing in are spa splashed and, and smeared with bright red blood. And he’s very creepy and like menacing, uh, hiding kind of in broad daylight in the corner. Yeah. And, and after the procedure’s over, Martin can see him too, which I feel like opens up a whole new can of worms.

Yes. But I also wanted to mention that, um, this, this corporate group who’s sitting around this conference table, the president apparently of this board is George Kennedy. I know 

Todd: you, you had said earlier, can you believe that Bill Paxton and Bill Pullman are in this movie? Well, I, I can absolutely believe that George Kennedy isn’t this Oh, absolutely.

Because he, he seems to be in any movie he can get into. Yeah, right. You know, 

Craig: for, uh, before we started doing this podcast, he was just that guy from the Naked Gun movies to me, Uhhuh. Um, and now that we’ve done this, we have seen him in so many movies. He just pop up. All the time. I also wanted to point out that another one of the board members, this little guy is played, he’s not given a name, he does have a line.

Um, is Willie Garson. He’s a character actor. He’s been like all over TV and movies. He’s been a bazillion things. Probably best well known for his role as Carrie Bradshaw’s best friend Stanford. Bla on Sex and the City. And, uh, he just passed away, I think within the last year or two. Uh, he was young, not not much older than us, and he died of cancer, which, uh, when, right when they were beginning production of the Sex and the City sequel, uh, series.

Oh, and just like that, um, he was, he was written into the script. He was supposed to be a major part of the script and he got sick. And passed away, and they had to write him out. But I wanted to make mention of him because I’m a big fan of his, and it never would’ve occurred to me when he passed away to do a tribute episode to him, because I, I, I know him as a comedian, but here he is.

Cool guy. Got one line in this movie, 

Todd: and here’s our tribute episode. Yeah, 

Craig: Willie Garson. Cool, dude. All right, so now Dr. Martin can see Conlin and thanks. Conlan is following him, and at this point I don’t know what’s going on and it only gets. Crazy. Like, yeah, from this point really literally, I have no idea what’s going on.

The only thing is, at some point earlier when Martin was talking to, I can never think of this guy’s name, Reston. When Martin is talking to Reston, he’s like, well, you want him brain dead? And Martin or Reston says something like, well, it could be worse. He could be the doctor and you could be the patient.

Todd: Mm-hmm. I did take note of that at in that moment. Yeah, I did too. 

Craig: Yeah. It, it seemed a little,

a little odd in the nose, like, Hmm. And like 

Todd: you said, like everything that’s happening right now is so bizarre and so. Out of reality that you’re thinking either this movie is really that stupid, you know, that it’s got this guy who can, presumably a doctor walking in and out of this purely white room that opens up into a boardroom at this guy’s skull.

Completely exposed with no Yeah. Procedures, you know, to for, for medical whatever, or. This is just supposed to be giving us an unreal kind of dream-like reality. And, and then when he’s like, I mean, it’s almost dreams within dreams because there’s more than once when he wakes up and suddenly, you know, it seems like he’s dreaming something.

This is already, I think by now happened twice. Yeah. And. Then, like you said, when he starts seeing this guy laughing and chuckling in the corner, at this point I was like, oh, it’s gonna be one of those movies, isn’t it? Yeah. I’m like, am I gonna have to think? Am I gonna have to think really hard? Right. Okay.

I said better take more furious notes. 

Craig: No, I, I told you that this movie reminds me of a lot of other movies and at this point in the movie, it’s reminding me of that Michael Douglas movie, the Game that Michael Douglas, Sean Pin movie. I know. Yeah. Um, where you don’t know. What’s real or if it’s real. I haven’t, I saw that movie when it came out in the theater.

I don’t even really 

Todd: remember it. Me too. And I love it. Oh, I’ve seen it like 10 times since then. I’ve showed it to everyone I know. 

Craig: Uh, and a movie that I’ve never even seen, but I know enough about Jacob’s 

Todd: Ladder. Oh yeah, me too. I also haven’t seen it. That’s crazy. Oh, we should do that. That’s 

Craig: weird. That’s a, yeah.

Classic movie. It’s reminding me of all of these movies and, and all of these movies are either movies that I consider to be good movies, or at least movies that I really like. Yeah. Um, like I wouldn’t say that Dreamscape is a great movie, but I love that movie. Yeah. And so, It’s difficult for me to say. I, I think that I agree with you.

I think that I would’ve liked this better when I was a kid. I think that as a kid, I would’ve thought it was really smart. Mm-hmm. And, and watching it now, I, I almost wish that I still had that more innocent openness to it, because You’re right. I think I’m just more cynical and I’m kind of rolling my eyes like, ugh.

Yeah, okay. Whatever. 

Todd: Yeah, you’re trying to be smart. You’re trying to create this kinda crazy yesterday. 

Craig: Okay, I get it. I don’t. 

Todd: I don’t trust necessarily that I’m gonna, this is gonna lead to anything profound. Right. You know? And it 

Craig: doesn’t really, but that’s okay. Like it’s just a stupid movie, but, So then, um, Martin goes to dinner with his wife and he’s acting like a lunatic.

Like he’s twitchy and 

Todd: paranoid and well, he’s drinking a lot, right? There’s kinda, you see, 

Craig: I don’t even remember, but Bill Pullman, I feel like since, um, Since Independence Day, he did more dramatic roles before that. He did comedy, and he’s a funny guy and he’s a funny comedic actor. And I saw some of that coming through here, like the twitchy, paranoid thing going on.

I thought it was hilarious. Really? Yeah. But he’s, he’s acting loopy and, um, his boss. Uh, and his friend Reston show up and are sitting there and having dinner with them. But like he gets up to go to the bathroom or something and he comes back and he sits down at the wrong table and is talking to strangers like Nonsensically.

And he’s just like repeating the new you from Munus, the what is going on. Yeah. And 

Todd: he’s seeing, he’s also seeing this bloody dude everywhere. Uhhuh. 

Craig: Yeah. And then again, and then all of a sudden he’s, he’s at his own front door and he opens it up and goes inside and that bloody dude conlan, uh, or whatever is with him and like, shows him Reston banging his wife on their dining room table.

Yeah. And they’re banging for a minute, but then, They’re like naked in an embrace, dead with their eyes. Gouged out. Yeah. And then suddenly Martin wakes up in Lakeside, Lakeside, and he’s the patient, and Conlan is the doctor. And Martin starts talking about Halsey and Conklin’s. Like there is no Halsey.

You’re Halsey. Yep. And then this, like, this whole sequence of events is just walking from one surreal environment into the next. Now it’s, it’s, it’s all in the context of the hospital, kind of. Um, but it really is just kind of a series of strange events. For the next 10 or 15 minutes, 

Todd: the doctor comes in and says that he’s fragmenting into a patient called Halsey, but in fact he’s Halsey and he reveals the pencils on those desks and.

Stuff up on the wall, which is stuff that earlier he had seen Halsey do. Like he took these little stubby pencils and had set them up, and then he’s led into what he thinks is his office. It’s, it’s the doctor’s office. But previously this looked like his office and the doctor’s like, well go look out the window.

He says, well, my office is in the Beaumont building eighth floor. And the say, all right, go, go look out the window. You know, Rex. And he looks out the window, but it’s clearly not the eighth floor. Um mm-hmm. And then the accountant comes in. Jim, who is actually Reston? Reston. Paxton, yes. Yeah. But he’s just like a me, like a little accountant.

He’s like a tiny little guy. And he is like, oh, Mr. Conlan is behind on his payments. You’re his prize account. I don’t see how the mattress business survives without you. What did that 

Craig: mean? Uh, I don’t 

Todd: know. Mr. Conlan was, Funding his, he, 

Craig: he is saying what again? He’s got a different name cuz he is a different character now.

But, uh, Paxton is telling Martin that Paxton is the accountant for Eunice. But I think what he says to Martin is, you, Martin or Halsey, or whoever he’s supposed to be. Now you were this Conklin’s accountant. I don’t know. Accountant or account? I don’t know. I think accountants, 

but 

Todd: I don’t know. Oh, accountants.

Maybe I 

Craig: misheard that. And Conlan like owns this mattress, uh, Uhhuh factory or something, which the other Halsey had mentioned before. See, it’s just so convoluted. Like, and ultimately, no, I don’t think any of this matters. Yeah, I think you’re right. There’s another scene where Martin gets. In a room with a bunch of crazy ladies who like pull him into a closet, I don’t know what’s going on.

And then he’s in a room filled with people who are chained up and in cages. But when somebody else comes to the other side of the door and opens it, then all the people are gone. 

Todd: Yeah. And the doctor is behind him, me says, oh, I see you entered my little museum. Antique neurological devices are my hobby.

And yeah, of course there are no people there. And then the doctor suggests shock therapy. Yeah. You know, he gets very sinister and. I don’t know, you know, God. So then he’s like, kind of shocking him with this ancient, you know, shock therapy equipment. And then he wakes 

Craig: up again, and then he, he wakes up again in a bed in the loony bin and the guy who we’ve known as Halsey before, the little bald guy who’s played by, the guy who played Harold and Harold and Mod.

Oh yeah. Yeah. He like talks to him and he is like, I’m gonna get you out of here. And he cuts his restraints. He’s like, wait, somebody’s coming. And he goes and hides in the closet. And then when whoever that was passed, Martin gets up and looks in the closet and Hals, he’s dead in there. And then he wakes up in his bed again and the same scene happens again.

Mm-hmm. He and Halsey have the same conversation. He cuts his restraints again, I think. I don’t know. But then this time it’s like he’s 

Todd: a, it’s like he’s a ghost in his own room now, where he is staring at himself on the bed and he pulls up his own chart. Right. 

Craig: And at this point, you again, like, uh, the others, like who’s really dead, who’s really, you know, and at this point I’m with you in that.

Just, just tell me like, yeah, I, I’ve lost patient by now and yeah. Right. Like, so his wife shows up and visit and it seems at this point, like he’s in the hospital because of his car accident and he’s laying there in bed, I think, pretending to be unconscious. And, uh, his friend Reston shows up and is kind of smarmy with his wife.

And then he gets up and walks into his closet, which just opens up into open sky. Yeah. And he’s hanging by the floor, like shouting to them, and I guess they’re still looking at his body in bed and he is like, help me. I’m not dead yet. But he falls and then they’re in the o 

Todd: in the ocean. They’re in the ocean.

Halsey is in there. Or the guy we know is Halsy. Halsey 

Craig: is like, like waiting, like having a lovely time. But then the sea monster. Of the ID arrive. What? Like I know just took out, 

Todd: I was like, oh, I don’t want to have to understand this. Please don’t get a metaphorical on me. Now this is hard enough to figure out as it is.

Yeah. 

Craig: I refuse to start thinking about the ID and the ego, like I’m not, we’re not doing that. Um, and luckily they don’t really make us, because then he wakes up in the street all dirty, like a homeless person, but he goes back to his office. 

Todd: Yeah, the water that was being splashed onto his face as he was on the beach is now being splashed onto the, his face by some guy, by a restaurant, is just trying to get him out right and away.

And he goes back into his office. But now it says Dr. John Halsey on the office door. But he sees the view outside and he’s comforted by the fact that now we’re way up high, but it’s, but it’s not his, you know, it’s not Rex Martin. It says Dr. John Halsey. So I guess, I don’t know, man. I’m like, so he’s halsy, right?

Craig: And and res we’re, we’re almost there. Reston shows up and tells him, don’t worry, it’s just all just bad dreams. And then the scary guy who has been Mr. Conlan all along shows up and he’s apparently now Eunice security, and he says, we really do need that equation. And then all of a sudden, Martin is in that surgery theater from before the white Surgery Theater.

Mm-hmm. And the scary Conlan guy is performing a ludicrous lobotomy on him. And Reston is in the corporate side of the theater, pleading for the equation, and Conlan starts prodding at Martin’s brain. And then all of a sudden Martin is behind the wheel of the truck that hit him. Yeah. And then he wakes up in brain surgery, a totally different brain surgery.

And he now he is a patient, and Halsey is the doctor performing brain surgery on him and his wife. And they’re calling him Martin. Yeah, they’re calling him Martin again. And it now, it seems like now I’m kind of getting back on board. Now I’m like, okay, he’s in brain surgery because he got hit by. 

Todd: The car way back when.

Yeah, 

Craig: way back when. So, okay. And so the wife and, uh, Reston are, you know, this is a different surgical theater, but they’re again on the opposite side of the mirror and they’re like, oh, I hope he pulls through or whatever. And then it cuts away and you see him and it seems like he’s recovering. Except for that he’s, the wrapping on the top of his head is huge.

Like it’s enormous. Comically enormous, right? And he goes into a room where he stands in front of a mirror and he pulls off the top of his skull. And butterflies fly out. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: And then it cuts back to him in surgery where he dies. Yeah. And then, then I don’t remember if this is just over black or if it’s just in his.

Office or what, but you just hear his voice saying, where am I? Am I dreaming or is this death?

I’m dead.

Huh? I’m good. I think. I think. Oh, this should be interesting. And now he’s just a brain in a jar. The end 

Todd: is so dumb. On that shelf. Oh, it’s, it’s 

Craig: really, really dumb. I didn’t realize how dumb it was until I tried to talk about it. 

Todd: Alright. 

Craig: But my theory is, my theory is everything that happened before he got hit by the car really happened.

Okay? And then once he got hit by the car, none of that was real. It was all just crazy shit going on in his head until we see him again in brain surgery and when we see him in brain surgery and his wife and his friend are there watching, I think that that is real and that he dies in surgery and then apparently he’s a sentient brain in a 

Todd: jar.

I was gonna ask in a lad, you. You think that this is trying to posit that all brains are sentient when they’re Yes,

Craig: yes, I do. Okay. See, because that, that ties it right back around to the end where he was talking, you know, he was admonishing his as. For not having reverence and respect for these brains because, you know, they are, they were a living thing. They were an entity, they were a person. It’s as though he believes the essence of a person is still there in their brain, even when they’re dead or whatever.

As long as the brain is still there. Um, and ultimately the movie. Proves him. Right. Okay. But I love But in being proved right, he’s like, am I dreaming? Or is this death I’m dead? Great. Yeah. 

Todd: It’s really funny, right? It’s just comical the way it’s ended. I, you know, your explanation is, Pretty much what I thought it was gonna be.

I was really hoping you would have something more sophisticated for me to share. No, but I’m not surprised you don’t because uh, yeah, and this is why a movie like this would’ve been great as like a Twilight Zone episode, or Uhhuh Tales from the Crypt episode. Yep. This long ass movie where I feel like the good majority of it was just a bunch of random stuff that was happening in somebody’s brain that’s ultimately meaningless and is just there to confuse me.

I just. Ultimately like, oh God, why did I see this? You know, like I, I, I lost patience for it. Like we said earlier, I lost patience for it about 20 minutes in. I didn’t really regain patience for it. There were some intriguing moments and you pointed them out, you know, where I’m like, oh, I think I know what’s going on.

And then kind of by the end it’s like, okay. Yeah. So that’s what’s going on. It’s all more or less a dream. It’s all going on in his head while he is in surgery and now he’s dead. It’s, it was intriguing. It was a well-made movie, honestly. For the budget? No, for the budget. Yeah. You know, it’s, again, I, I feel like it, it’s the movie version of a pseudo intellectual, you know, it’s trying to be really clever and really smart and whatnot, but when you, when it finally wraps up, unless I’m missing something, it’s not as clever as it dans to be.

It’s just a bunch of lynching and kind of stuff thrown at me to confuse me and keep me intrigued. Until then, well see. But that’s 

Craig: okay. Would you say the same thing of something like if it were of better quality, if it had had a bigger budget? Like I, I’m wondering do you feel the same way about like Lynch lynching and stuff like Mulholland Drive, like, I have no idea what the hell is going on in that movie.

I’ve seen it and I have, I couldn’t tell you. I have no idea what was going on in that movie. Yeah. Um, but I still thought. Thought it was a good movie. I mean, the same thing. What was the other one you said? Uh, not Interstellar, but Christopher Nolan’s other one. Inception. Inception. Like it’s that that’s the same kind of thing, right?

No, it’s like where you ultimately don’t really know what was real and what wasn’t. It, but, 

Todd: but that’s just sort of the mystery at the end. That can keep you guessing. But the movie itself followed a clearly, an easy to follow plot that had its own internal logic that made sense and was, it was a little twisty, but ultimately, like, you know, there’s, it’s.

In a way, it was kinda like a heist movie. I’m thinking a lot about, what was that movie we saw? It was another tribute episode that we did. Ultimately, it’s a mental patient and most of the movie that we see is happening in his head and its characters in a motel. Oh, identity. Identity, right. Identity. I think of it a little bit like identity and that that’s sort of the end result is that most of the movie’s taking place in his head, but in identity there was sort of a puzzle.

To unpack. Yeah. Yeah. Like we were actually clued into, this is happening all in his head, but the movie was still intriguing because. There was something there, like there was still a mystery that we still had to solve that was, that had logic and had sense and, and that was very satisfying. You know, this movie is just like, feels like the middle of, its confusing to be confusing and ultimately at the end it’s, you know, it’s that twist, ah, guess what, it’s all in his head.

And no, I don’t think it’s as good as those films. I don’t think it’s sophisticated as those movies. And I didn’t think it was as fulfilling as watching those movies either. And yeah, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have said that about. I wouldn’t have said the same thing about a movie that, that I think just cared a little bit more about me as a viewer.

Yeah. 

Craig: I mean, I think your criticism is fair. I’m really just playing devil’s advocate. Oh, no, for sure. Because I, I, I think that, uh, I, I think it’s an interesting idea and I’ve, I say this all the time, it’s like a broken record. It’s different, and I appreciate e even if. In saying it’s different, all I mean is it’s odd and weird.

Um, I like coming across odd and weird things. You know, we, in horror in any genre really, but in horror specifically, you see a lot of cut and paste films that, you know, you, you, you’ve seen one, you’ve seen ’em all. And this one, it was different. And it was trying, 

Todd: it was trying to do something ambitious, I think.

Craig: I think so too. And having, um, not seen it before, and it’s starring these two men who are very familiar to me, very much in, you know, the pop culture zeitgeist. That is my life. It was just an, an interesting oddity to stumble across, literally accidentally. Um, so, so I don’t regret. Having seen it, I don’t feel like it was a waste of time.

And I think a lot of our fans, those who, uh, are like me, interested in consuming as much as possible. It’s not a great movie. I don’t even know if I would go so far as to say it’s a good movie, but I found it interesting. It’s a ride. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I I think it’s, I think it’s worth seeing. It’s not gonna blow your mind, it’s not gonna change your world.

Um, but worth seeing in my 

Todd: opinion. Yeah. I, I mean, I think I concur. I think. The difference between this movie and movies like it that are just a little better is that at the end of the movie, we’re not still challenged. Right. We’re not like trying, still trying to decode it. There’s not like this element of mystery.

I, I feel like it’s supposed to be that kind of movie, but ultimately I sort of feel like we figured it out. Yeah, definitely. You know, so, yeah. But yeah, no, definitely worth seeing, especially if you wanna see these guys. Um mm-hmm. In at their, in their game. You know, I mean, bill Paxton is So Bill Paxton in this movie.

Yeah. And it’s so definitely, it’s so, it’s so interesting to see the greasy kind of slick Bill Paxton, who’s being sort of seductive and also like the asshole, and then suddenly pops in as a fricking accountant who’s just this like, Everyday dude. Mild mannered. Yeah. It’s such a stark change, you know? Um, it really speaks to his range as an actor, I think, you know, he’s just, yes.

He’s just so great to watch. And I love Bill Pullman too. I love watching him. I do too. And George Kennedy is always George Kennedy, so you can’t go wrong there. 

Craig: And Rick Willy Garon. There 

Todd: you go, our ip. Well, thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share with with a friend.

If you think we have totally misjudged this movie and there is something that we’re missing, please let us know. Find us online in any one of the places we are. All you have to do is Google: “two guys and a chainsaw podcast”, you’ll find our Instagram account. Our Facebook page, our website. Just leave us a message or tweet us anything and let us know, uh, where we’ve missed up.

I would love to hear that we’ve messed up, uh, and there’s something deeper here that we missed. Also, if you enjoyed this podcast and, and the other ones that we’ve done, please consider joining our patrons. We put out Mini SOS every month. We have lots of little fun little things that we, that we do for our patrons behind the scenes.

They also get to choose our requests, and we are going to be doing a couple requests from our patrons in the following week, so look forward to that as well. Our patron page is patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We loved Basket Case so much that Todd wanted to try another Frank Henenlotter film. And this one did not disappoint. Come listen to us gush over the trippy, Lynchian and utterly fascinating “Brain Damage” from 1988 – and wonder aloud why we hadn’t heard much about this independent horror flick before! Help us rescue it from obscurity. Enjoy!

Brain Damage (1987)

Episode 346, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, it was my week to pick this time. Craig had chosen the last few movies I think that we did, and so I just, I don’t know. You know me, I’m always in the mood for something from the eighties. I just want some cheesy, 80’s horror movie.

But I have a few things that have just been on my list forever that have been really intrigued by that I wanted to see. And I remember you and I absolutely loved Basket Case. Yeah. Um, we just thought it was just this gritty, crazy, awesome little independent movie that just had a lot of heart uhhuh, you know, like.

Dirty heart. It, it showcased New York City, like the griminess of it, but it just did it so well, and, and it was just fun. Yeah. And so, uh, I’d been wanting to get back to see another one of Frank Hennenlotter’s movies, and this one called Brain Damage from 1988 was his, uh, second big movie after Basket Case.

I think from here on out, he did a couple more sequels to Basket Case and Yep. Couple other movies. He, he really only has done a handful of movies. Mm-hmm. But, um, Frankenhooker. Frankenhooker, I, I saw a couple times as a teenager actually, that movie, that movie promises more than it delivers. Really, you know, for a teenage boy renting a movie called Frankenhooker, you’re really hoping for.

Certain things and, and a lot of really excels in the sort of the horror comedy genre. Yeah. So this is build as a horror comedy. It’s definitely got, uh, its tongue firmly planted in cheek, but it has a lot of disturbing elements to it, just like Basket Case. Uh, and so, yeah, uh, this was actually the first time I’d seen it and I was really looking forward to discussing it with you, especially after I watched it.

So, yeah. How about, how about you Craig? Uh, had you seen this before or even heard? No. No. 

Craig: I don’t think that I had even heard of it, and I’m really surprised. Right. Basket Case is kind of a, a cult classic, and I, I did really like it and I, I only recently saw basket, case two. And I really enjoyed it too. And there, I don’t know, it’s this, this guy has a really unique, Hennenlotter has a really unique style.

And yeah, like these movies, all of the ones that I’ve seen are really goofy and really out there. Yeah. But there’s, there’s just something stylistic about it, and it, it does, I don’t know. It, it feels like you can feel the, the love that went into it. Mm. It, it’s, it’s really hard to explain other than that, if you have seen basket case and you begin to watch this, you’ll immediately recognize the feel and the style.

Uh, had, yeah. Had I not known that this was made by the same guy, I think that I still would’ve thought. In many ways this movie reminds me a lot of basket case, right? 

Todd: Stylistically, yeah. Thematically, yeah. Kind of too. The main, the main character, just like the main character in Basket Case is kind of this guy who’s like going through some emotional issues, some emotional trauma or whatever and maybe is a bit of a, I don’t know, like in Basket Case you get the sense that he’s kind of a loner, but he’s kind of not.

Cuz he has a girlfriend. He gets a girlfriend. Yeah, he gets a girlfriend. Uh, in this case, this guy’s got a girlfriend. They’re quite serious. They’re engaged. But I, I think that the thing that I really admire about Hennenlotter is, After seeing these two movies is he has a lot of confidence as a filmmaker. I mean, it’s very clear, you know, you can’t make a movie like this and like Basket Case without just being fully confident about, about what you’re putting up on the screen, you know?

I know it’s crazy, but we’re gonna go whole hog on it.

Craig: Yeah, yeah. And I like that. I really like it. You know, they’re really unique stories. Uh, fairly simple. I mean, if you were to, you know, summarize the plots you could do so, you know, in a paragraph. It’s not like these big complex stories, but they’re out there.

And I like that too. I like that. You know, he has a bold idea and he runs with it. Um, and he does stuff like there’s some stuff in this movie that I just can’t even believe. Right. Made it to film ever. I know. Anywhere I was watching it with my, like my jaw on the floor. Like, is this happening? 

Todd: Right? 

Craig: Is this happening? Am I really seeing this? Like, is this allowed? 

Todd: Oh, I know exactly what you’re talking about. I don’t think this is allowed. You can’t do this enough. Oh man. Yeah, it’s there. I I, I mean also they’re both much like basket case kind of a character study in a way because it’s really focused on this one guy kind of going through his own personal torment.

Right. In Basket Case, it’s this guy who’s has to kind of care for his psychotic, deformed twin brother. Yeah. That he keeps in a basket. In this case, what happens to him is just. It’s just totally out of the blue, you know, it’s kind of random really. But he’s gotta deal with it now and it’s just what he’s going through and we’re just with him the whole time and we start to see how his life kind of falls apart because of this creature.

Yeah. It 

Craig: attaches itself to, I can see why you would say that it’s kind of a character study, but it’s more, it almost seems more like a study of how would a normal person deal with this insane scenario. Yeah. Like in, in basket case, you know, the main guy, Duane, I think was his name and his brother had a long.

Complicated history and, and had known one another their whole lives and had it’s more complex relationship. Complex. Yeah. Right. It, it’s more complex. Here. This guy is just thrust into a strange situation and I didn’t really even think about it, but I was reading some, uh, reviews and, uh, articles about the movie today, and one of them pointed out how we don’t really know anything about Brian at all outside of the confines of his apartment.

It’s, it’s, it’s like he, he doesn’t really exist outside. We know that he has a brother who also lives with him in this apartment and he has a girlfriend and that’s it. Yeah. We don’t know anything else about him. We don’t know anything about his family. We don’t know anything about does he have a job, does he have friends?

It, it’s, it’s all, he’s very, very isolated and then this bizarre thing happens to him and his brother and his girlfriend are. They’re on the outskirts of it and they’re concerned about him, but it really just becomes a very personal. Journey for him, and he’s really very much kind of alone except for his little friend.

It’s, I don’t even know, like, how do you that, but that was one of the things that I liked about the movie. Like, it, it surprised me. I didn’t know a lot going into it, but I did read a brief summary that said something like, an ordinary man wakes up to find a repulsive creature attached to his spinal cord or something.

And that, so I knew that it was gonna be a creature thing, but then the creature shows up like, what? 

Todd: Uh, I, I don’t know. It’s, yeah. I can’t wait to get into the story because it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be all over the place. Well, it’s interesting because a, a lot of reviewers at the time, and a lot of people just that you read online, talk about and say that this was Frank Headen lots.

It, it’s reflective of his struggle with cocaine addiction, uh, right. Drug addiction 

Craig: and it. And it feels very much like, oh, yeah. A metaphor for addiction. But I he’s, it seems like he’s kind of distanced himself from that. Like he’s downplayed that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he’s, he’s said, oh, yeah. It, it seems like a, a pretty obvi, I mean, this is coming from him.

He’s saying, yes, you look at it, and that seems pretty obvious, but he, like, like you said, he, he downplays it, it it’s not just that, it’s not a psa. 

Todd: Yeah. He basically said, look, literally, it’s a very narrow reading if you’re just looking this as a metaphor for drug abuse, like it’s, that’s an easy thing to move the plot.

But in broader terms, he said it’s, it’s like about escapism. It’s about an a, a free ride, like an easy way out. Right? There are lots of other avenues for that besides drugs, but Right. Eight drug imagery was a simple and easy way of expressing that in a film. And so, You know, that’s kind of what we have here.

It’s very on the nose, sort of, kind of a drug type imagery. But he definitely, really, definitely distances himself from saying, this is like a personal story of his, like, uh, I don’t know if he was addicted to to cocaine or not, or if he denies that too. I, but he’s just kind of like, eh, forget about that.

Right. That’s not really what this movie’s about. So, um, he, he actually more likened it to Faust. Like a very superficial adapt adaptation of Foust is what he said. So. Right. And I think he also got some criticism too, thinking that this movie was Pro-D drug. I don’t get that. I don’t get that at all either.

It seems like a nightmare what this guy’s 

Craig: going through. I, I read it too. What I read was that, you know, some critics say that, um, when Brian is under the influence of these drugs, for lack of a better word, supernatural drugs, whatever you wanna call ’em, he’s very euphoric and seems really happy and seems like, you know, he’s having a great time.

But the article that I read said that’s ignoring the fact that the comedown Yeah. Is way worse, like, like the, the consequences far outweigh. The reward. And 

Todd: that’s kind of the point. Yeah. 

Craig: Right. And that’s, that’s the Faust thing, right? Yeah. I mean the, I mean, come on. People take drugs because it creates a high, uh mm-hmm.

Euphoria or, or whatever it, it is escapist. Um, so I mean, it would be stupid to pretend that that wasn’t the case. But the focus here obviously is on the terrible, terrible consequences of that kind of dependence. Mm-hmm. Uh, upon something like 

Todd: that. Yeah. Yeah. Also, there’s a very sexual undertone to this movie.

That’s exactly what 

Craig: I was just gonna say. I was gonna Right. Um, but I appreciate what the director says about Yeah. The, you know, the drug thing is a really simple way of expressing this. Um, but it could be any other thing too. And I think that sex is one of those things. That it could be, especially since n n not only did this movie come out, you know, kind of right at the peak of Nancy Reagan’s war on drugs, uh, her big just say no campaign.

But it also was right at the height of the AIDS crisis. Mm-hmm. And so I think that, uh, sexuality was something that was at the forefront of people’s minds too, because all of a sudden there were these new potential consequences for sexual behavior. And that seems to be explored here a little bit.

There’s also, you know, and I’ve read this several places, I don’t really know whether or not it was intended, but there’s some weird homoerotic stuff mm-hmm. Going on in the movie theater. Seems like it. But I, I, I honestly couldn’t even tell. It’s really hard to, it’s intentional. 

Todd: Yeah, I’m with you on that.

It’s not like, you know, nightmare in Elm Street. Too obvious if it, you know, if it’s there. And I don’t know if he Lauder’s even addressed that. I, I haven’t read him addressing that at all. He’s definitely addressed a sexual element to the movie saying that, right. He said in even an earlier version of the script was more overtly sexual and it that, you know, obviously through different revisions kind of got toned down, but some of it kind of remains.

But yeah, there are, there is an odd scene in here that we’ll talk about that kind of left me scratching my head with like, what was the point of this? Me too. But that on its own, Doesn’t really mean anything, right? Like, I mean No, uh, it doesn’t really carry through the rest of the film, so it kind of leaves you, that’s why he left me scratching my head.

I just didn’t seem to fit 

Craig: Well, I read, I read something else. The, I think this was just a fan review and they’re like, you know, yeah, the whole drugs thing’s there. But it’s also about, you know, a guy struggling with, uh, his. Sexuality. He’s got this girlfriend, but then he starts experimenting with this other, you know, like phallic entity or whatever, and mm-hmm.

At that point, you know, like he shuns his girlfriend and, uh, explores other avenues. Uh, okay. I, I mean, I feel like, I feel like you could read it that way, but I feel like. In doing so, it seems like there’s an agenda, like, like yeah, maybe like you’re searching for something, like you’re, you’re, you’re kind of grasping at straws a little bit.

I, I see it, I think that there’s a ra a reasonable argument, but I really kind of doubt that was intentional. 

Todd: Well, honestly, I think this is part of the beauty of the movie really, and why I enjoyed it so much is I like this ambiguity here. I mean, the movie’s not lazy. It’s very bold about the choices it makes, it’s doing these kind of crazy, outrageous things and it makes no apologies for it.

Uh, but it’s very lynching in a way. Yeah. It gets very surreal at times. You do wonder, what does this mean? What am I supposed to be getting outta this? Is this real? And there’s psychedelic imagery and the ending Oh yeah. In particular is just kind of whacked out. And, and so Uhhuh, I, I like that. You know, it’s, it’s so different.

And again, it reminds me of David Lynch. It also reminds me in a way of, um, The other guy who does, the guy who does body horror a lot, um, Kronenberg Kronenberg, especially video drum, you know, video drum mm-hmm. Is another movie where this kind of lone guys going on this journey and just weird stuff is happening and you’re not quite sure what’s supposed to be real and what’s not.

Or if it’s all just sort of magical realism or if it’s all allegorical and Right. And that’s fine because ultimately I enjoyed it. I did too. I really enjoyed it. I did too. 

Craig: And this isn’t one of those movies where like, oh my gosh, turn it off right now cuz you don’t want the spoilers. Unless, I don’t know.

I really enjoyed it too. And I think that part of what I appreciated were the surprises. Like they’re, they’re not like earth shattering surprises, but, um, Certain things would happen and I would just be taken so off guard and I, I would laugh out loud. So I would say if this is something that you’re interested in, you may wanna watch it first.

Cuz we will of course, as always spoil everything. Right. But at the same time, this is, this is one of those where I feel like you can listen to this and still. Enjoy it. Yeah. Later 

Todd: you’re still gonna watch it. We, 

Craig: we can’t, we can’t possibly explain how bizarre it is. So you’re still gonna, you’re still gonna be in for a treat.

Todd: I totally agree. I, I mean, we can’t possibly do justice to the imagery on the screen in this movie. No. So it’ll be fine. No. Well, the movie kicks off with images of tribal masks interspersed with like pages from a anatomical book with notes on it and stuff, and a very, that’s weird. Cynthia, eighties score.

Oh, I love the 

Craig: score. I absolutely love the score. Like, I’m tempted to buy the blue rage just because one of the special features is the, the score on its own. No way. Oh, wow. Yeah, I, I could, uh, I could listen to this all day. It, it’s super Cynthia, and the title is just this really bold red, you know, block letters, brain damage with, uh, like lightning bolts coming out.

And honestly, five seconds in I’m like, oh, 

Todd: this is gonna be good. Right. Well, this older man comes home, uh, to his wife and once again, Hendon Lauder loves to set his movies apparently in the dingy New York City streets, which I kind of like. So it’s just kind of a dumpy little apartment, but cute. And this older man’s coming home and he’s got a package.

You were gone so long. It’s worried. I had to go all the way to 

Craig: that goddamn gourmet darling. But you got them a dozen. Good, good. No, they’re too damn small. Well, not like the ones we got from Godley. May he 

Todd: rest in peace. 

Craig: Maybe we should order from that French butcher 

Todd: again. No way. Always 

Craig: asking questions, making jokes.

Oh, these are beautiful. 

Todd: It turns out to be brains. Yeah. Are you coming now? I’m going to feed them Elmer Din. And they go into the bathroom with this package of brains and she just instantly starts screaming and we just get a shot of the bathtub with water in it. Right. 

Craig: And I have no idea what’s happening.

It’s so dramatic. I know. And I, I, I, I have no idea who, like, I’m like, who is Elmer? Is it like, do they have some kind of weird deformed sun or are they keeping somebody captive? I have no idea. But when she realizes that whoever, or whatever it is, is gone, they flip the out. They are so. It’s insane. Like she is screaming, wailing through this whole scene and they’re, they’re looking for Elmer apparently of like, what are they looking for?

They’re like looking well for, they tearing the house completely apart. They destroy, they destroy the entire apartment. She’s like tearing everything out of the kitchen cabinets. He’s clearing the bookshelves. I’m like, what is going on? And it, it is just absolutely crazy. The score 

Todd: is pounding. They, they go, they knock on the neighbor’s door and they run into their bathroom and look in their tub and see No.

Okay. And the leave, I mean, that neighbor 

Craig: was, um, Duane’s neighbor from Basket case. Did you recognize 

Todd: her? Oh, no, I didn’t. No. Yeah, 

Craig: I mean, she’s just, she’s just in that tiny one little scene, but I, I was looking at him and Lauder’s other movies and pulling him up. I she is in all of the ones that I looked at.

Um, she’s in Franken Hooker. She’s in basket, case two. Sounds like he’s kind of got a little cruel Little 

Todd: entourage. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. But yeah, they, and oh my God. And so then like, they look and look and they can’t find it, whatever it is. And the last image that I remember seeing is them laying amongst the detritus that they have created, laying on the floor kind of head to head, foaming at the mouth.

Yeah. And I had no idea what was happening. I thought, did they kill themselves? Right. Like, did they drink, you know, like, uh, I don’t know, bleach or something, did they, I, I couldn’t for the life of me, Understand what was happening and then we leave them and don’t come back to them for a long time. Mm-hmm.

Eventually we find out what is going on. But I was so intrigued by this opening. It was wild. I, and, and it just, it set up, uh, to me that I had no idea what I was in for. Right. Like, I have no idea what this movie is. I have no idea where it’s going. It’s already crazy. Um, and then it just gets crazier. Yeah.

I mean 

Todd: that’s what’s great about this film is it does not waste any time. And, and no, then it’s br this guy is laying in bed, we don’t even see his face for a while. He gets like a phone call. He’s mostly asleep and then eventually his girlfriend comes over. So this guy laying in bread, his name is Brian and his, his, uh, fiance I think, cuz she had a ring on her finger.

Her name’s Barbara. She comes over to wake him up, but he’s like feeling really, really sick. And his brother Mike has answered the door and. He’s like, what’s going on, Brian? And basically, they’re supposed to go to a concert, she and Brian, but instead Mike decides that he’s gonna go to the concert with Barbara instead because Brian is just feeling too sick.

He’s like, you guys just go and, and I’m gonna stay right 

Craig: at, right. It’s at Brian’s suggestion. But couldn’t you tell from Oh yeah. Like the second that Barbara walked in the apartment that Mike was like totally 

Todd: in her, Mike was creeping on her from the, from the moment she walked in. I’m almost uncomfortably, so.

Really? Yeah. And 

Craig: that’s what I was thinking too. I’m like, dude, that’s your brother’s girlfriend. Like gross. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. But you know what, there’s an, there’s an interesting bit that I caught because it’s in my notes and, and I didn’t realize it happened at the beginning until I looked back on my notes. But he keeps in the frame that there are the, the next door neighbors, which are this man and this woman, they have like five locks on their door, and you see that in the frame from when she comes over, he opens the door.

It’s just a nice little touch that he had in there. And it was enough for me to notice and write it down. I was like, Why does that neighbor have five locks on their 

Craig: door? Oh, God’s I did not notice. But that, that’s, that’s, yeah. And that’s 

Todd: a kind of a bit of a clue because then, um, after they leave, Brian kind of wakes up and there is like blood all over his hand and he, he checks his neck and his, his neck is bleeding.

There’s blood on the bed where he was laying and he’s just kind of spaced out and he’s literally crawling on the floor 

Craig: at this point. This scene is wild. Yeah. And there are so many scenes like this that I can imagine people taking drugs specifically to watch this movie. Right. 

Todd: Well, if you want a sample of what it’s like to take drugs, you watch this 

Craig: movie.

I, right. Like I can only imagine that. This, like, it, it seems to end up visually. It, it, it’s like an injectable chemical that goes to his brain. So it, it, it seems very reminiscent of heroin and I have no idea what, aside from what I’ve seen in movies, um, what the effects of heroin are. Um, but this definitely has like psychedelic properties.

Yeah. And so, you know, once when he gets up, um, he’s dizzy and he has to sit down, he sees flashing lights, he ends up laying back down in his bed and then like blue water starts flooding his room and there’s trippy music and the lighting is all trippy and he’s staring up at the ceiling and the light fixture and the ceiling like morphs into a giant.

Eyeball in a 

Todd: very, in a very slow and deliberate way. Like it’s kind of cool, actually. It actually reminded me of being a kid trying to fall asleep, staring at my ceiling and almost seeing it as something completely different. And yeah, the light itself, you know, is one of those white kind of half dome lights with like a little black little nipple on it or whatever.

On a, on a white ceiling that’s a bit textured. And then when you see it again, yeah, it’s like a little organic looking and then you see it again and it’s quite clearly like an eyeball. That he sees. Yeah. Right. It’s almost, it’s very reminiscent of an iris and the ceiling itself is a little gooey, like the white part of the eye and glistening and mm-hmm.

I, I was really impressed actually with the editing here and just mm-hmm. The, the pacing of it and, and everything. And, and it really pulled me into sort of a trippy vibe because like you said, then there’s like water flowing and it’s like flowing over him and over the bed, this blue water and it’s like he doesn’t care.

Yeah. He’s just laying there and he just lets this water wash completely over him. It’s so interesting. But you’re like, what the hell is going on? And what does this have to do with that couple next door? Right, right. It’s pretty artsy. It’s really cool. Uh, he gets up and, and he’s still got visions of the eye and stuff, but now he’s like in the corner of the room and all this stuff is completely gone.

He’s just sitting there and he’s still staring up the light and he pulls out a mirror to look at his neck. He goes into the bathroom and he sees that there’s like a hole back there. His tub is full of water, which is kind of moving around. And he just says aloud, okay, I know someone else is here, where are you?

And then he looks down and he’s wearing this like black T-shirt and there’s something kind of crawling up his stomach under his shirt. And then this dick, like brain creature pops up behind him from his shoulder and goes, hi, 

Craig: this was so bizarre. Okay. So like specifically the special effects people were directed to make this reminiscent of a big black dildo.

Yeah. Um, it, it, it is very phallic in nature. It’s veiny, it’s got like, Ahead. Like 

Todd: Yeah, but they had also his little brainy looking too, and 

Craig: Yeah. And it, they also, they incorporated like, kind of like suction cups on its body. Yeah. It, it also looks very much like a turd. 

Todd: Yes. Like 

Craig: hanky, the Christmas poop, it’s a mechanized puppet and it moves and it talks and they like, they used different effects.

They used, they had this mechanical puppet that they used a lot of the time and it talks. They had to do all of its talking ADR because apparently the mechanism of the puppet was loud and then, but they also used stop motion. And then in a couple of places they also use animation. Huh? And it’s, I just, you’ll have to Google it.

Do a Google image search for, it sounds like Elmer, but it’s a L y m e r or something like that, which they talk about later. It’s just so strange. Like in the same way that basket case was strange. A weird design, a weird concept. And the thing, when it started talking, I burst out laughing. Yes. Because I, I had no idea what I would’ve expected it to sound like, but certainly not what it sounds like.

Todd: Yeah. Now, apparently, hen and Lauder was very specific that he wanted this preacher to actually sound very sophisticated. Right. And he instantly thought to a horror host that he used to watch on TV named Zach Lee. I’m familiar with Zachary now, I wasn’t living in the area where he was on television, but he was like a.

An Elvira type host who would do horror movies and do interstitial and things. And my dad had, for some reason, I have no idea why. My dad had a VHS tape, got two hour long movie plus Zachary Lee jumping in and doing things. So I, I actually got to see this guy and, you know, he’s just a dude. Yeah. But he has a very particular nice way of talking like this.

It’s almost 

Craig: a soothing kind of voice. Mm-hmm. It’s just so unexpected. Yeah. This guy, I, I just watched some stuff about him on YouTube. He kind of fell into that horror hosting gig by accident. He happened to do something creepy for a gig and somebody saw it and said, Hey, we’re doing this horror hosting thing, will you do it for us?

And he’s like, okay. So he just took the same costume that he had used for whatever that initial gig was, and uh, it just kind of took off. Um, and that’s what he became known for. 

Todd: This 

Craig: is the start of your new life, Ryan. A life without worry or pain or loneliness. A life filled instead with colors and music and euphoria, a life of light and pleasure.

Who are you? What are you? I am you, Brian. I’m all you’ll ever need. I don’t understand you. Will Brian, from now on your life will take on a whole new light and all you have to do is look into the light and listen. Listen to the light. Brian, just listen to the light. Yes. Yes. I’d like to again, but I don’t see it now.

Then I’ll make you a deal. I’ll show you the light if you’ll take me 

Todd: for a walk. A walk 

Craig: where? Anywhere you like. I’m, uh, hungry. Wait, wait. I’m confused. I’m not following any of this. Then don’t worry about it. You don’t need to worry about anything ever again. I do all you’re 

Todd: thinking 

Craig: for you. And so that’s, that’s kind of the fian element of it.

Like I’ll give you everything you want. At a cost. Mm-hmm. That is a typical trope, uh, you see in literature and film all of the time. You know when something appears to be good, too good to be true, it’s usually because it is. And, and that’s what’s going on here. And now what this thing does is it attaches itself.

To the back of his neck, and he never sees this happen, which I think is hilarious because it, you obviously, it’s behind him so he can’t see it. But if he could see it, he would never do it again. Because this, this thing, first of all, it looks like a big blue and black veiny dic turd. Um, but it’s got these funny cartoonish, almost like dopey sympathetic eyes.

Yes. Like it 

Todd: has a face. It’s so cute in a way. Really? Yeah. In a way it’s, 

Craig: and then, but then when it attaches itself to the back, it’s head, like the front part of its head, it’s mouth I guess opens up. But when I say it’s mouth opens up, it’s almost like his head just elongates. Yeah. And it’s just this big moth full of teeth and tentacles and it’s gross and scary.

It kind of looks like a lamp ray or something. Yeah. Like a, and then a big needle. Big dripping needle comes out, inserts itself into a hole in the back of his head, and then you see that it enters his brain and squirts this blue juice all over a Can I come on like Yeah. And, and it’s this, it’s this big 

Todd: phallic 

Craig: thing, squirting juice, constantly talking about its juice.

Like you need, you want some of that juice, don’t you? I’m gonna, I’m gonna juice. See Real nice juice you up. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. I mean, there’s the homoerotic slash you know, sexual nature of it of course. And, but also the drug nature of it as well. Right. It’s definitely hilarious 

Craig: though. And, and, and it releases that secretion and he immediately, like, you can, I mean, it looks like he’s coming basically like it’s.

He gets so excited. He’s got, he’s got total o 

Todd: face. Yeah. Sexual sounds he’s making and stuff. Uhhuh with fluid going, like you just said, we get this great closeup into his brain of that needle popping through and dripping the juice all over his brain. And it kind of makes things go a little electric in there.

Like, uh, there’s some animated electricity when it juices him. You know, the, the guys who worked on the special effects for this were the two, the two main effects guys who were, who did Spooks Yeah. Uh, who, who were working on Spooks at this exact same time or just come off of Spooks. And Spooky was a weird ass movie, uh, that got thrown through the ringer and, and came out like way different than it was originally intended to be.

But I do remember spooky, the one thing that we had to say about it was the effects. And they were very ambitious. Yeah. It had some really interesting and cool creature effects throughout the whole thing. And so I think that at this point, these two guys were making a name for themselves. I’m trying to make a name for themselves anyway, doing this, but it has that like low rent look Uhhuh that quite frankly, spooky had Uhhuh, but it, it really still fits the movie.

Yeah. I mean it might as well because the whole movie’s surreal and trippy, so it doesn’t really matter that this thing looked that realistic. It serves its purpose and it’s totally fine and I was totally into it. And like you said, with his little dopey eyes and stuff, he almost comes across as little cartoon character, Uhhuh, which in a way is.

It serves the drug metaphor in a way. You know, it’s like, it’s this, this sinister, horrible thing that’s gonna really mess you up, but it comes on with such promise and such niceness. Yeah. And so it all fits. And plus his voice. It’s just so soothing. You know, I’m just gonna fix everything for you. So as a package, it just totally works.

But man, if you walk in from another room and you see this movie playing, you’ll be like, what in the hell am I watching? Yeah, real quick. They’ll buy one criticism and it’s just, Kind of minor criticism really, that we just know nothing about Brian. I guess it’s the point. But like, usually a movie would try to tell us a little bit about his life.

Is this a happy guy? Is this a guy who needs this? Is this a guy who’s been wanting something like this? You know, is this a fulfillment of a Dr, of a wish or a dream? Or is is he like a victim here? He’s totally happy and he’s getting ensnared into this thing that’s that’s making it, that’s screwing up his life.

Like we don’t know any of this stuff. Right. We just know he is got a fiance and presumably things have been fairly normal for them. Right. And Brian is played by Rick Hurst. He’s got this very, very familiar face. It’s handsome. Craig. Yeah, I’m here. Can you hear me? Yeah. I’m just waiting for you to jump in anytime to talk about Rick Hurst’s, uh, 

Craig: background.

All I, I don’t really know it, uh, you don’t. Well, soaps. Like 

Todd: he did soaps, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, your, one of your favorites right? Days of Our Lives. He was 

Craig: on that. See? I see. I didn’t know. I didn’t know if he, I I saw that he did like General Hospital. Yeah. 

Todd: 1989 to nineteen ninety, a hundred six episodes of Days of Our Lives.

My man. Who was he, uh, Scotty Banning? Uh, I 

Craig: don’t know. No, I mean, I’m sure I watched it. I don’t know. He, he looks like a, a soap guy. He’s very handsome. Um, in fact, uh, throughout the course of the movie, and it bothered me. I don’t know why it bothered me. I think it just because it was unexplained, but throughout the whole movie, he had a split lip.

Yeah. I thought, did this guy just have really dry lips? And they just had to work around it. Like I couldn’t figure it out. Now you’ll read that. Um, that was because they had intended to. Shoot a scene where he got into a fight defending his brother, but that they ran out of time and budget and just never ended up filming that scene.

So it goes unexplained. But Hennen Lauder has said more recently that that’s not true. That that was never the intention. It was just, uh, in his words, the guy was too pretty. 

Todd: So, which, to which, um, Rick Hurst has said, is he crazy? This just this little split lip, if he’s trying to make me look a little less attractive, like he could’ve like scarred up my cheek or been like half an ear gone or something like that.

It’s just this tiny little split lip that’s just, I don’t know, it’s just more distracting than, than actually like, makes him look less beautiful. I think honestly, 

Craig: I, I read that quote, I read that quote from him, like, why didn’t, why not gimme a big scar cut off part of my ear or something? I don’t know.

But for me, there is something really unsettling about. I don’t know. It’s almo, it’s, it’s, it’s like, like I said, I was wondering, does he just have really, really dry lips? Like his lips are cracked or like, like, is like a cold sore, like, I don’t know. There’s something that gives me the heebie-jeebies about that.

So it worked, it worked for me. But he is, he’s, he’s a nice looking guy. I feel like you were gonna say you’re one criticism that was it. Oh, that we don’t know anything about him. So, yeah. And I have no idea. Obviously an, uh, any, you know, speculation about intention is, is really just that speculation. But I wonder if, um, along the same lines of, you know, fa like he’s just kind of an every man.

He’s just the boy next door. He could be you, he could be your friend, he could be your brother. You could, he 

Todd: could be you. You can put yourself in there if you want. I guess, 

Craig: right? By not giving him too many defining characteristics, maybe it makes him more sympathetic or relatable. Uh, I don’t know if that was the intent.

May, maybe it’s just his outside life is. Insignificant. Mm-hmm. Aside from the fact that we immediately see. This start to have negative impacts on his relationships, which again, goes very much along with, uh, drug addiction. Drug addiction often leads to isolation. It, it leads to strained relationships with loved ones and people who care about you.

Mm-hmm. Like you said, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of on the nose, but it works. And I, and I think that it’s really smart to approach it from this really bizarre, kind of wacko way as opposed to, It could have just been a serious movie. You know, it could have been the Basketball diaries or Requiem for a Dream or, or something like that.

Right. Like, look 

Todd: at this person’s fall. Yeah. Right. 

Craig: This is a different way of approaching it, a more symbolic way. And I, I think it is really effective. Now the problem is, okay. Yeah. So the drugs are great. Like immediately, as soon as he gets high, he goes out and he’s like looking around and, um, everything is like a psychedelic light show.

And we see, you know, what he’s seeing and it’s very colorful and trippy and, um, it looks great. But he ends up in this junkyard and he’s approached by. A well, not just approached, assaulted really by, uh, the night watchmen and then Elmer pops out and, and like, I don’t, what does he, he’s, 

Todd: I mean his mo it seems to be most of the time to leap right into someone’s forehead and eat their way through their skull into and suck their brains out.

Yeah. And I mean, when you see the teeth he’s got, you figure he can do it. Sure. Yeah. It just burrows into his head and, and this is where we get a little bit of stop motion of him actually like pulling a piece of brain out and stuff. He’s got this big old smile on his face. I mean, it’s. It’s kind of funny and cute and nonchalant, you know, just 

Craig: the way, well, and, and Brian is so high that it, I, I think the suggestion is he doesn’t really even, he’s not really fully aware of what’s going on.

Mm-hmm. So after Elmer eats the cop’s brain, Brian looks over and he is like, he says, what’s going on? Is he okay? And Elmer goes, not bad. A bit underdone. Like he’s also goofy. Like the thing is goofy. It kind of, it reminds me of the goblin from Sorority Babes and Oh yeah. Slim Ball Borama. Oh, very much so.

Yeah. Like he’s got jokes. 

Todd: He’s a joke. Yeah, 

Craig: he, he sings a song later, like, oh my gosh. He, 

Todd: he sings a full song later. Yeah. 

Craig: Okay. So then he kills the cops. So then Brian asks to be juiced again. Mike and Barbara are just constantly talking to one another, like, what’s going on? Why is he acting so strange? And at one point, Bri like, she comes over and, uh, Mike is like, he has been in the bathtub for the last six hours, and like he put all these locks on his door and he has these buckets of water in his room.

And he’s always either in his room or in the bathtub, and Barbara knocks on the door and is like, Hey, we have a date. And, and Brian is like, oh yeah, I’ll be right out. And then Elmer. Pops up out 

Todd: of the bathtub and 

Craig: like it’s, and Brian just starts laughing hysterically like, like he’s playing with this.

Yeah. Like they’re splash 

Todd: splashing around. And

so 

Craig: it’s funny and they giggle. Hear it from the Yes. Like he’s just giggling like a lunatic and it’s, it’s really kind of funny. Uhhuh God, he tells Barbara, I think they go out, they go to dinner and he says that he just needs to be alone for a while. And he tries to explain to her what’s going on and he starts to like, I’m going through some pretty intense changes and I need to be by myself for a while.

Why? What’s happened? I see things differently now. You mean us? Oh, everything. It just doesn’t last very long. See, like right now, for instance, Everything looks normal. See no trails. No 

Todd: trails, 

Craig: none. But sometimes, sometimes I can see completely, sometimes everything glows with a different kind of light. I can touch an object and listen to the sound of its color.

I can hear voices and and music in the flicker of a match. I can look into a mirror and see a thousand different faces staring back at me. I can turn night and day or or, or watch the darkness shine, and I don’t even have to open my eyes. You’re on 

Todd: drugs, right? I mean, he sounds like a guy on drugs. A hundred percent.

Yeah. This is the kind of thing a guy 

Craig: would say. But Elmer won’t let him tell her about him, like he upsets his stomach or something like you. You just hear this gurgling in his gut. Anytime he starts to mention Elmer. Anyway, God, I don’t 

Todd: know. He looks down at his meatballs and one of the meatballs is actually like a, like a tiny little brain that’s pulsating.

A pulsating, yeah. He looks down again and there’s like two pulsating brains now. I mean, it’s almost. Funny, I, I was actually laughing at this point because it’s almost like Elmer is trolling him through his visions and, and he runs out of the restaurant and at, and at this point he runs out of the restaurant and he just tears down the city and we get this long tracking shot as he is just running past house, after house, after shop, after restaurant, after whatever, down the night.

Streets of New York City in 1987. And there 

Craig: was a very similar scene in basket case. Mm-hmm. The main character ran down the New York streets. He was naked. Brian’s not naked. 

Todd: I was just gonna say like, this movie has energy, like it really moves. I just felt propelled through it, you know, by this 

Craig: point I did too.

And it’s short at an hour, 24. But there are scenes like this one where he takes his time, With shots. Like we, we, we watched this guy run down the street for a while and there are other shot, there are other things like this that are prolonged. And it’s interesting because I, I read that Hennen Lauder’s original edit of the film was only 66 minutes long.

And so in order for it to be considered a feature film, he had to add stuff. So he went back into the editing bay and put stuff back in that he had taken out. Like you hardly ever hear that. Mm-hmm. You know, it’s always, it’s always people being forced to remove stuff for length or, or content or, or whatever.

He actually had to go back in and put some stuff back in. And I, I, I have a feeling that some of those may have been some of these extended shots, but I like them. Oh, they’re great. I like the pacing, um, of the movie. It, it, it does move fast, but it also, it doesn’t 

Todd: feel short, you know? It doesn’t, no. Or long, I mean, it just feels right.

Craig: To me and right. Those moments that linger, it feels appropriate and it feels kind of appropriately uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. Um, like you keep expecting it to cut away and it doesn’t, and it, it, I like the way that that. Affected me. Um, and it, it kind of made me a little uneasy for whatever reason. 

Todd: And I like that.

Yeah. Talk about uneasy. Like he ends up in an alley and he’s just against a wall, almost like he’s pinned against the wall. And you can see Elmer on the back of his neck. This is very 

Craig: sexual. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s like Elmer is just banging his neck. Uh, he’s just, yeah. There, he’s just moaning and groaning like in pleasure.

And there’s a bumbo nearby who doesn’t, who barely even takes notice actually. And then he looks up and he sees a night, a sign for a nightclub called Hell. And there’s this. Excellent musical transition that takes him into this nightclub. And he walks through this whole bunch of people dancing and stuff, and he is just, again, you’re kind of your typical drug experience.

Oh, he’s tripping. Balls going, you’re tripping. And everybody else is dancing and they’re probably other people tripping there too. Whatever. He’s kinda leaning up against his speaker and just listening to the colors or whatever. And there’s a woman at the bar who’s dressed a little skimpy, uh, who notices him and.

For some reason is attracted and comes over and tries to get him to dance, which he does, but he’s completely out to lunch, you know? Oh, yeah. I mean, he’s totally tripping. She doesn’t mind at all. She’s going with it. Yeah. They look like they’re having a good time, and then they go into the boiler room. It, uh, 

Craig: I th it’s an alley, isn’t it?

I don’t know. Whatever. It’s, it’s, it’s out behind the, it’s a door 

Todd: that says Keep out, and there’s, it’s got these huge tanks and things. 

Craig: They’re alone. And I mean, and it looks like it. Look, I mean, it’s not like we haven’t seen scenes like this, you know, uh, uh, inebriated couple stumbles into the alley outside of the club and Yeah.

Start making out, you know, they, they, they start making out and like he is so out of it, like you said, it’s, it’s a little bit. I, I’m not really sure why she’s so into this stranger, but she is. And, uh, she reaches down and, and fondles his crotch and says, Hmm, it feels like you got a real monster in there.

And I thought that was the most clever line. It’s so easy. It’s such an easy joke. Oh, I thought it was so funny. And then, so then she kneels down and it looks like she’s gonna go down on him. She unzips his pants and this is the, this was the, I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. Yeah, because it is a sh so, uh, so his, his, his dick doesn’t come out of his pants.

Elmer does. Mm-hmm. And it goes into her mouth, but the camera lingers. It looks like, it looks like porn. Yeah. It, it, I mean, she, she’s blowing this thing and, and, you know, it’s, it’s coming out of his pants, it looks like 

Todd: porn. A hundred percent. And, and it, it, it’s, it’s straight in her mouth. It’s very erect.

It’s long and it’s, you know, veiny and blue and weird and stuff. And instantly his hands go down to the back of her head, uhhuh to keep her from removing it. Now he’s pretty out of it. Like, it’s almost like Brian’s just in the moment. He just doesn’t fully understand what’s happening. Right. He just knows.

He enjoys it. And his head is back, eyes closed and he’s got her face forced onto this thing. And I read that crew members walked out when they were filming the scene and in the theatrical release of this movie, they had to cut some shots out of this part. But, uh, the, the uncut version that we 

Craig: saw, right, I would be, because I can’t believe.

I still can’t believe that. Yeah. That this is even on the home release now. Like the, the original video release, it was still the edited version. It wasn’t until fairly recently it was released on DVD or Blu-ray that they, uh, released it uncut. But I, I, I can’t imagine them being able to show anything other than him holding the back of her head towards his crotch.

I can’t imagine anything more than that because the rest of the imagery is so graphic and so phallic and so porny. Yeah. But we have seen so much, you know, you get to the point where you feel like you’ve seen it all.

I, yeah, I can, I can still be shocked. We can. And then he leaves and goes to another alley and, and takes off his pants and underwear, and throws his underwear away because they’re all bloody, I mean, 

Todd: Elmer has. Eaten her brain. Like, like, yeah, yeah. I think it even pulls out. Yes. He pulls it out of 

Craig: her mouth and sucks it back into Brian’s pants.

Like it’s just, it’s really graphic and, and gross. And, and so then he throws away his underwear and then the, uh, the old man from the beginning shows back up. 

Todd: Shows up just randomly in this alley. I guess it must be by the house. I feel like It must be, yeah. By his apartment. And he yells at him. He says, you’re feeding him human beings.

You’re making him strong. Almer belongs to me. And then he goes into this very, um, exposition dump. Yeah, yeah. It’s, I I, you get the feeling he’s like a professor or whatever. Right. I mean, talks about how he long living relic of civilizations long since forgotten trace’s, origins to the fourth crusade, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

He paid a guy eventually and got him anyway, you know, he’s like, you’ve, you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta give him back. And Brian runs off and checks into a CD hotel, 

Craig: right? And, and he, he, he tell, he’s talking to Elmer, Elmer, whatever his name is, and says, you’ve got me. So I can’t think clearly, I can’t function clearly.

And Elmer says, but I thought you were having such a good time again, you know, heavy-handed drugs. Yeah. I mean, that’s what it sounds like. We can’t keep killing people every time you’re hungry. Oh, yes, we can. We’ll do anything I want us to do. You are mine now. Brian, I owned you. Oh, don’t worry, Brian. I won’t bite you while you’re asleep.

No, no, no, no. I want you to beg for it now. And again, this is all very heavy handed because it’s in a CD hotel and Brian immediately starts to go into withdrawal. Yeah. And it is almost a realistic depiction of what withdrawal from hard drugs like heroin can do, because there it’s a, you know, there’s a physiological addiction.

It’s not just. A mental thing. It’s a physical, uh, thing. And, and he looks 

Todd: sick. He’s sweating, he’s pale. Like he’s almost sweating. Like got sores brown. Yeah. Sores all over him. Als told him, I, I don’t get a brain. You don’t get my juice. We’ll just see who cracks first. There’s these trippy scenes where he like reaches into his ear and he starts pulling this long strand of something gross out of his ear, and then when he pulls it all completely out, his ear pops off and just blood gushes out.

I mean, of, obviously it’s something he’s envisioning, you know, it’s, it’s, I think it’s reflective of how he feels. Right. In the, in the meantime, Elmer is just very ho hum upright in this sink, and he starts singing Elmer’s tune, which is a song I know because I used to play it on piano. It’s an old sort of jazz tune and he sings the whole thing.

It is so hilarious. 

Craig: Why are the stars always weaken and bleak in above? What makes a fella start thinking folding in love? It’s not the season. The reason this plane is a moon, it’s just almost two. Well, and, and it culminates with Brian on the floor, foaming at the mouth, which explains mm-hmm. That’s the, the old people we’re going through withdrawal too.

And when we see them, when we just saw the old guy in the alley and we see them again here in a minute, um, they too look terrible. Like they look like they’re suffering, um, from withdrawal also, eventually Brian does beg Elmer says, I’ll give you more juice, but you have to feed me first. And that’s when we get to this weird scene where Brian goes, I don’t know where to a, 

Todd: I think it’s a, um, a truck stop.

No, I think it’s a community shower. I think it’s supposed to be in the ho the motel. Like, like in this motel. Oh. Like there are not individual showers in the rooms, but there’s like a shower on the floor that they can go 

Craig: into. Weird. And so he goes in there and there’s this muscular naked man. That, uh, just the way that the camera’s framed on him.

Like it’s learing. Yeah. Yeah. It’s long learing shots of this naked man. And, uh, Brian comes in very awkwardly and is kind of just staring at him like he doesn’t even shower. Like he just walks in there in a towel and just stands there and stares at this guy, and the guy keeps looking at him like, uh, don’t worry.

Yeah. And, but then, and then eventually the guy leaves and, and that’s it. Like, yeah. And, and Elmer I think, uh, you know, uh, gets off of Brian and crawls into another part of the bathroom and eats another guy who’s sitting on the toilet. But that scene with the naked guy, I just, I don’t understand, I don’t understand, understand the, what the purpose of it was.

Extend 

Todd: the running time of the movie. 

Craig: I guess. I, I. I, and I don’t, I just, I don’t understand why Elmer didn’t just eat that guy. Right. Weird. Whatever. He eats a guy on the toilet. Then back at Mike and Ryan’s apartment, Mike brings Barbara home with them. I don’t know where they have been, but they’re talking about how he’s absent all the time, blah, blah, blah.

And Mike’s like, you know how I feel about you. So not knowing that Brian is there in his room and not checking, they start to . Yeah. And Brian is just laying in his bed listening to them. Mm-hmm. Then Elmer juices. Brian, there’s a weird, there’s a weird. Like incestuous, threesome, hallucination. Mm-hmm. Where, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s Mike and Brian and Barbara, and they’re all naked and it’s really, really brief and it’s not super graphic, but weird.

Mm-hmm. And so then Brian comes out of his room, finds the two of them in bed together and tells them that they need to get out because there’s something out of his control. And if he’s high, he won’t know what’s happening and he doesn’t want them to get hurt. Yeah. And he runs out and Barbara chases them out and follows him to the subway where there’s, they, they sit on the subway car.

This, by the way, is the only permit that he got for filming Famously, hen and Lauder didn’t get any permits for. Uh, basket case, either he did get a permit to film in the subway and on the subway. The character from Basket case is on the train with them. And, and I, I just, I love them. I thought that was cool.

These eggs like that? Yeah. Like they exist, like they exist in the same world and it’s just a little, you know, kind of winking a k nod at at people who know the other movie. But I, I do know the other movie and I enjoyed it. 

Todd: I actually thought it was kind of appropriate too. I mean, here’s two guys just kind of passing by, facing off for a brief moment across the subway who both have monkeys on 

Craig: their backs.

Well, and it seems like, I keep calling him Duane, I think that’s his name. I don’t know, whatever that, that guy, it almost seems like he can sense that there’s something wrong or dangerous. Mm-hmm. He, he looks at Brian and seems to get. Uncomfortable and gets up and leaves. Yep. And this was another part of the movie that’s super, super weird, but I loved as the, so she’s talking to him, she’s like, I know you’re in trouble, but I’ll do anything to help you, blah, blah, blah.

As he’s sitting there and as the train car is moving, when the lights flash, for whatever reason, Elmer. Pops out of his mouth for just a split second and pops back in. It’s creepy. We see it, but she doesn’t, cuz presumably it happens either when she’s not looking or when the, the car is dark and it’s animated and it looks animated and it looks really strange, but at the same time, really spooky and creepy and it, it’s just you.

We’ve never seen anything like this happen before. We’ve never seen him move quickly. We’ve never seen him this animated his mouth. Yeah. Yeah. It’s 

Todd: really weird. And apparently this was very painstakingly animated. The, the effects guy did a kind of stop motion animation of Elmer to match what they had shot of Brian.

And then he went in and cut out of the frame with an exacto knife frame by frame those frames of Elmer and pasted them on the frames of, I mean, you talk about low budget handycrafts here, you know? Yeah. Or if people would use something called an optical printer for this, usually where, you know, you take two frames that are separate and you print them together on one separate piece of film.

But no, this guy literally. Pasted each frame of Elmer onto the frame of this guy. And it works because the movie’s so surreal. We haven’t seen anything like this Uhhuh, the effect, it’s still good. Like it gives, it gives a really creepy 

Craig: impression. I really liked it. I mean, it, it looks dated. Obviously, if something were to be done like this today, it would be cgi.

I, but Oh yeah. I, I really liked the look of it. It was, it was weird and it was unsettling, and then he grabs her and kisses her. And again, it’s al it’s, it’s like he doesn’t know what he’s doing. Mm-hmm. And Elmer eats her brain like, like sucks her brain out. Into Brian’s mouth. And when he lays her down after he’s got blood and like chunks of brain on his mouth that he wipes away.

And it’s just little details like that that are so gross. Um mm-hmm. And so unsettling. And then I don’t know where he goes, but he gets confronted by the old couple again. They corner him in an alley with a gun. Um, the old lady frisks him and gets Elmer, but Elmer jumps onto her forehead and eats her brain.

And then I think the old man tries to intervene and it jumps on his brain. But Brian needs to be juiced before the old man is dead. So Elmer attaches himself to Brian’s back, but the old man isn’t dead yet, and he wakes up and he attacks during the juicing. So like it, he grabs Elmer by the body and squeezes, which I mm-hmm.

And then we see that like, Uh, Brian’s brain gets flooded with this blue stuff. It’s like an overdose, essentially. It’s an od, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s, it’s an OD and I mean, that’s what happens. So Brian gets an overdose, the old man drops Elmer to the ground, and Elmer kind of, you know, goes into these death throws, but then presumably dies.

I mean, this is supposed to be some kind of ancient creature that’s been around for centuries, and all you have to do is squeeze it for a second and it dies. Right. 

Todd: Yeah. I, I wasn’t, I wasn’t sure. 

Craig: I guess nobody, I guess nobody before wanted to kill it because they were all addicted to it. Uh, whatever. I don’t know.

Yeah. But, so then Brian starts to freak out, and this is so bizarre. His head starts bulging, like there’s clearly an air bladder under something on his head. It’s his skin on his forehead. Yeah. Right. And it, you know, it bulges out and is like throbbing and stuff, and he runs back. And he’s leaking blue juice out of his eyes and his ears, and he runs back to his apartment and he points a gun at his head.

And then we cut to outside and we hear the gunshot. And from a window up in the building, presumably Brian’s room, there’s this bright light emanating out of the window. And so Mike and the cops go into the room and light. And electricity are emitting from a, he, like Brian’s whole forehead is gone and there’s just like some sort of cosmic abyss that like light is glowing, is coming out of the end.

Like, yeah, that’s it. It’s a really bizarre ending. I mean, you know, if you’re, if you’re following the drug metaphor, it’s, it’s an OD and he dies of an od, but the way, the fantastical way that it’s executed is appropriately bizarre based on the rest of the movie. And though it’s somewhat ambiguous, I was very satisfied 

Todd: with the, oh, yeah.

A hundred percent. Yeah. Oh man. I, I enjoyed it. I love the movie and everything that we’ve said about it. I, I think you could just listen to us going through the discussion. You still might be compelled to watch it. Oh, I hope you 

Craig: do. It’s, it’s, I’m really surprised that I didn’t even know about it. Like I, mm.

God, I, I, you know, we’ve been doing this podcast now for five, six years. I, I don’t even know anymore. And it just blows me away that we still find these things, right. That are new and fresh to us. It’s nice. It’s nice to have these little. Pleasant surprises. I really enjoyed this movie too, and I would very much recommend it, uh, to horror fans.

It’s unique, it’s creative, it’s bizarre. It’s fun. It’s funny. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. It’s very punk in a way. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. Yeah. As dark as it is, and it it is dark. It, it’s also very funny. Uh, I laughed many times and, and like you said, I, I just think Hennen Lauder is an interesting filmmaker. I, I went to his IMDB page thinking, oh, I can’t wait to watch.

Something else. And like you said, there’s, there’s not a lot. He didn’t do a lot. No, he did the three basket cases. He did this, he did Franken Hooker, and then I think he’s done some like documentary work and stuff. 

Todd: He’s still working on something, but not, not no big movies like this. I think he did something, which is obviously, I think a documentary called, that’s Sexploitation and uh, a documentary on Hor Herchel Gordon Lewis.

I think his latest one was 2018. Although he is got two upcoming things, they’re both shorts, 

Craig: so. Gotcha. Well, he’s cool. Yeah, I think he’s, he’s really creative. That’s not, that’s not to say that other filmmakers aren’t creative, but he’s unique. Um, he’s got a unique view and, uh, a unique style. Um, and it’s, it’s fun.

Yep. 

Todd: Absolutely. That’s exactly what I was gonna say. All right, well, thank you again for listening to this podcast. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. If you’ve seen this movie, please let us know what you thought of it. Yeah. Just by going online and, and find us on Twitter, on Instagram, on our Facebook page, all you have to do is Google two guys in a chainsaw podcast, and you’ll find us, drop us a note.

We love interacting with you. Also, I, I just wanna take this time to, to please review this podcast. You know, one of the best things you can do to support us is just to spread the word, uh, and let people know that you enjoyed it. If you didn’t enjoy it, keep it all to yourself. All right. 

Craig: You ready? We don’t want 

Todd: to hear from Another way you could support us, uh, would be to, uh, check out our Patreon, uh, at patreon.com/.

Chainsaw podcast, we put out Mini sos. Every month we give the unedited version of our phone calls, lots of little extra treats for, uh, the people who are supporting, who are supporting us that way. So thank you all for listening, and until next time, I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig 

Todd: with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Giovanni Lombardo Ravice, lead actor in some of Italy’s most notorious horror films of the 80’s, passed away in April. As we’ve already reviewed a couple of his films and told stories of his notorious dismissal of the horror genre of which he was so entwined, we decided to pick the most interesting of the remaining films for this week’s episode.

Not to be confused with the Meatloaf-helmed horror-musical of the same name, Stage Fright (a.k.a Deliria) is certainly an oddity of its time. Billed as a stylish 80’s thriller, we found it a bit of a pedestrian bore. Nevertheless, Ravice’s performance stands out, and we’re honored to pay tribute to his career and notoriety here today. Enjoy!

Stage Fright (1987)

Ep 345, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, Craig has chosen the last few movies that we’ve done, and so it kind of became my turn to pick a film. And as we often do, we keep track of the people in the horror community, whether they be big, big stars or cult genre stars, uh, the people who’ve died and, uh, try to do tribute episodes for them.

And I, I don’t think this is. This man is probably at the top of all of our listeners’ lists. Probably not yours at all. Craig, I forgot who you’re 

Craig: talking about. It’s gonna be just as much a surprise to me as to the audience. 

Todd: Well, I propo whether he remembers it or not, a, a few days ago I propose to Craig that we do a tribute to, uh, Giovanni Lombardo Revice.

Uh, who died in April of this year. Now we have reviewed one or two movies that he has been in. Uh, they’re all Italian films, so right off the bat, definitely more in my wheelhouse than in Craig’s. We did City of the Living Dead by Lucio Fulci. We were not terribly impressed with that movie, but he played Bob in that film.

And then, um, during another tribute episode that we did, For Umberto Lenzi, the Ill chosen Cannibal Ferox, which we both thought was a steaming pile of garbage. Yeah. He played Mike Logan, the star of the film, and that is a cannibal movie that not only did we hate, but he himself also hated. He, uh, has said on record many times and in many interviews that he regrets being in that movie that he thought it was also a steaming pile of garbage, that it was fascist and mean spirited and racist and degrading.

And, uh, he very much objected to the animal cruelty in that movie and refused to do any of it. Um, there’s kind of a somewhat famous altercation between him and, uh, and the director, Umberto Lenzi, where. There’s a scene in there where they kill a pig and they really do kill a pig. And he was called to do that scene.

Lenzi said to him, all right, now’s the day you kill a pig. And he’s like, well, yeah, the, the special effects or whatever. And he’s like, no, we’re really gonna kill a pig. And he said, I’m not killing any pig. And Lenzi says to him, well, Robert De Niro would’ve done it. And he said, Robert De Niro would’ve kicked your ass right out the door.

And so he refused to kill the pig. And so the special effects guy actually ended up being the guy who killed the pig. And then they had to do closeups on his face, like reaction shots of him stabbing. And the reaction shots of him stabbing were of him stabbing something. It was like a big. Melon or something like that.

I vaguely remember that. Yeah. Yeah. That the special effects guy was holding. And he loves to say that he got his revenge for the pig because as he was stabbing that melon, he stabbed right through it into the hands of the special effects guy. Oh geez. Who had to go to the hospital. So, uh, yeah, he was quite a character and, uh, he’d really made a name for himself, uh, in these low budget horror movies.

His very first love was actually, uh, ballet. And he was studying ballet. Mm-hmm. And he was really into theater, but then he kind of ended up in film. And, uh, like I said, started out with, uh, cannibals in the streets, city of the Living Dead, a, uh, Ruggero Deodato movie called House on the Edge of the Park, and then Cannibal Ferox.

And, uh, anyway, if you’re a fan like I am of this old Italian, early eighties, late seventies horror films, um, he does pop up a bit in this and has ga garnered quite a cult following because of it. Uh, he’s a good looking guy. He’s a yeah, fine actor. He’s been working all the way up until, uh, 2000, uh, 21.

Mm-hmm. Honestly, uh, has like 57 credit film credits to his name on IMDB until he died in April. So, uh, ah, you know, I was looking through, obviously, like I said, we’d already done City of the Living, dead Cannibal Fair. Two movies I had already earmarked for our podcast we’d already done. And, uh, I was trying, I was deciding between two films, the church.

Uh, which is an Argento produced movie. And, uh, this one that, uh, I chose Stage Fright. And the reason I chose it is I thought the concept sounded really interesting and I thought it would be appealing to Craig. I mean, give me some credit, Craig. Sometimes I actually think of you when I’m choosing these movies that I’m suspicious that you’re gonna hate, aren’t you?

Sweets well, Bless you. Yeah, I am sweet. I mean, it’s about a bunch of musical theater, uh, people, uh, rehearsing a musical who get locked in the theater and there’s a killer amongst them. And yeah, some reviews say it’s a fine little eighties slasher with a lot of flair and style and, and eighties sensibility and whatnot.

And, uh, we did a movie called Stage Fright, but I think, yeah, that was our Meatloaf tribute, right? Uhhuh, where it was a bunch of musical theater kids at a musical theater camp who, you know, there’s a slasher among them so it’s easy to get the two movies confused. But this one is from 1987 and uh, absolutely could not be confused with the Meatloaf movie, which itself was a musical.

Yeah, this movie is a pretty lame slasher film and, Honestly, to my chagrin, our, the guy we’re paying tribute to like dies in the first 15 minutes. So yeah. How would you know? I was, I didn’t know. I disappointed. 

Craig: I I, I’ll agree with you that I think that, uh, this movie sounds interesting and promising on paper.

It’s not either of those things.

Honestly, like, I don’t know. I don’t think I was in the right state of mind for whatever reason, meaning I wasn’t like, Hi or drunk like you, you, whichever is your preference. I think that is the state of mind you need to be in for this movie. Gosh, I don’t know what to say because other than a couple of noteworthy artistic choices in the filmmaking, I don’t really think there’s much noteworthy about this movie at all.

Like the, the story is pretty lame. Mm-hmm. The acting is. Pretty bad

and for me. It broke the biggest rule that horror movies shouldn’t break. And because it was boring, I was bored. 

Todd: I was 

Craig: too, oh, I just, and, and I swear like, uh, I took far fewer notes than I usually do, but two-thirds of the way down in all caps I have, they’re still a half hour left. 

Todd: I, I literally found myself wandering from the movie Me too, to where I was like, Oh crap.

There’s still a movie to watch and I like, I like did the same 

Craig: thing. 

Todd: It’s terrible. I had to rewind. Uh, and make sure that I could write down at least what happened if nothing else. I did that 

Craig: a a couple of times too, and both times I rewound it like 30 seconds. I was like, uh, no. Didn’t miss anything.

Todd: Oh man. I, it’s directed by, uh, Michelle, uh, Sovi, and he is both a director and an actor. And I don’t know, you know, for some reason I had it in my head that he directed demons, but he did not direct demons. We loved demons. Demons 

Craig: you The demons you mean? No, no, just demons. Okay. Right, right, right. Now, 

Todd: another movie where there’s a bunch of people locked in a theater, except in this case it’s like freaking demons.

And that was a gory, bloody just delirious crazy mess. He did not direct that he acted in it. He was the guy in the beginning, remember that, had that like half metal mask on who was in the subway. He was passing out tickets to the theatrical performance. So he was an actor in that. And he was an actor in a number of Dario Argento movies.

Um, before he started directing again, city of the Living Dead, the New York Ripper Tenere Opera. Uh, demons. He was, he acted in that, he was in phenomena. I mean, we’ve done, yeah, a lot of those, yeah. All all. But one of those movies I just, I just rattled off and 

Craig: he’s in this too. He’s got kind of a, I guess they’re supposed to be comic relief even though they don’t do anything funny.

That was, yeah. My biggest problem with this movie is I think that somebody should remake it and just go full camp. Like, yeah, make, make it. Actually a musical and, and just make it really over the top and stupid because this is played straight. And because of that it’s just boring. Like I want this to be a bad movie, but it’s not even funny or hokey enough.

To be bad. I mean, the, the, the plot is dumb. I mean, it opens up with just like a black screen, I don’t even remember, but it sounds like somebody’s either bathing or killing a cat and, and then you hear these like cat screams throughout the movie. It’s weird. And then it pulls up on. A hooker who I couldn’t tell at first if it was a man or a woman, and I was a little confused there for a second.

It’s a woman and she gets grabbed, like she gets pulled like it’s on like a street, like a dark street at night, and she gets pulled like into an alleyway and then. It breaks into a huge dance number. And I, I had no idea what was happening. I didn’t realize that we were in the context of a stage performance.

Like I thought that this was just the movie, um, which I think is what we’re intended to. Yeah, so it’s, it’s like a supposed to come as a right. It’s supposed to come as a big surprise and it was a big surprise. And then there’s a big dance number and the lead guy, this guy who we’re paying tribute to. Is in a, um, owl mask like this full, like it’s big.

It’s like a big owl head that sits. On his shoulders. And that’s the only element of his costume. This is rehearsal, so there may have been more to it, but he’s just in like black or a bodysuit or something. Um, and I didn’t know that this guy had a history in dance, but it doesn’t surprise me. I mean, he looks like a dancer and he is graceful and he moves around and then, but it’s just crazy from the beginning.

Like the music is weird. Marilyn Monroes, like on the sax, like with the. Wind blowing up her skirt and it’s really weird. Yeah. But it turns out that they are doing this show, I guess, called the Night Owl, and it’s gonna be sensational because the big twist is that in the third act, the victim is going to rape her own murderer.

This director Peter, who’s super pretentious, I didn’t write down any of the actors’ names, by the way, because none of them were familiar to me. So if there’s anybody of note here, You’ll have to let me know. 

Todd: No, uh, I didn’t bother looking up 

Craig: any anybodys. Yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t either. Um, so Peter is the director and he’s kind of, you know, the typical douchey, pretentious director.

Alicia is the girl who was playing the hooker. There’s just a small cast of characters. It starts out larger, but it eventually weeds down to these. Sybil and Danny are actors too, and they are a couple and she is pregnant and therefore, Throws up throughout the rest of the movie cuz that’s how you know people are pregnant in movies.

Danny is the dad. Um, I have, uh, Brett is. Uh, gay. I, that’s not, I used a mean word, but that’s the only, like, that was his defining characteristic. Oh, he’s the gay one. The funny, he’s the funny gay. There’s 

Todd: always gotta be a funny gay. Yeah. Especially if you’re doing a movie about a musical. Come on. 

Craig: And I act, I’m not just saying this because we’re talking specifically about this actor, but he was my favorite character because even though he was kind of douchey, he was at least interesting.

Like he was doing stuff and like he had snarky lines. So he was, I don’t think that it was meant to be like, haha, funny, but he was bitchy and I liked it. The rest of them were just boring. There’s like a fat producer who hits on the girls. His name’s Ferrari and there’s another actress named Laurel and a stagehand named Mark and like a groundskeeper named.

Todd: Willie. Yeah. And Groundskeeper Willie. 

Craig: Groundskeeper Willie. And these are the people. And so I, the, the setup because, so what’s her name? The main actress, Alicia, somehow hurt herself, I guess while they were dancing. She twisted her ankle or something and Peter didn’t wanna allow, allow her to leave to go get it looked at cuz they’re on a tight schedule or whatever.

But she sneaks away and her friend Betty. Takes her to the psychiatric hospital to have her ankle looked at? No. Okay. 

Todd: All right. Right. Um, and the psychiatric hospital looks like a jail. Uh, I thought they were taking him to jail. It’s just a psychiatric hospital that keeps people in jail cells. There’s 

Craig: one ominous patient, this tall, lanky guy who doesn’t speak that they like, lead into a.

Barred room and strapped down to the bed and keep, you know, doing these ominous closeups of his face as he’s like looking out in the hall and he’s lit and all blue and whatnot. Well, what ends up happening is what’s her name gets her ankle looked at and then they leave and inadvertently bring the psycho back with them, like the psycho kills and orderly and hides in the back of their car and they bring him back to the theater and, uh, He gets in sight and starts killing them all.

The is 

Todd: no. 

Craig: Yeah, like that’s, that’s pretty much it. It’s 

Todd: definitely him, right? Because by the end of the movie, I wasn’t sure who the killer was. I guess it was Are you 

Craig: serious? Oh, I thought it was so obvious from the They knew who it 

Todd: was. Yeah. I mean, I, I just didn’t care. I, I, my point is like, I knew it wasn’t anybody.

In the theater. This wasn’t going to be a case of where one of the actual cast are a killer because at one point everybody in the freaking cast is locked in a room together. Yeah. From away from the killer and then the killer drills through the door it at one of them. 

Craig: And so, un un, unless it would’ve been like a minor character that we hadn’t spent much time with or something.

But no. Like what? Like, like Groundskeeper Willie. Like Willie? Yeah. No. Right. It’s bold on its face. This, this character has a name. His name is Irving Wallace, and he was an actor who went berserk and killed 16 people and doesn’t talk a lot. That’s his mo. Yeah,

but it is him. We know it’s him, but he just shows up and first, like as soon as he gets out of the car, he murders Betty and they find Betty’s body, so they know that there’s. A murderer around, but Peter’s like, no, this is great. It’s gonna be like great publicity and we’re gonna change the show. Right. And the killer’s not just gonna be an anonymous killer.

It’s gonna be the real Irving Wallace, and people are gonna pay big money to come see a show about a guy murdering people in the building where he just murdered somebody. It’s. Fantastic. Lock all the doors.

It’s so dumb, like there’s only one exit door and there’s only one key, and like there, once it gets locked, they’re just, They’re just stuck. They’re just trapped. Mm-hmm. And they know, like they know, um, I don’t know. Does he kill our, our guy next is that we don’t even see our guy get killed. We just see he, he loses his mask.

He can’t find his bird mask. And then he is kind of looking around for it, and I think he finds the spare or something. Yeah. And he goes, oh, there you are. And he bends over to pick it up and the killer is standing right behind him in. Yeah, 

Todd: the bird mass, sadly, we don’t see him get killed. There’s no scene or anything.

In fact, I’m not even sure they find the body. It’s just kind of like, yeah, you really 

Craig: weren’t paying attention to this movie. 

Todd: Yeah, yeah, we were. They find, did they find his body? 

Craig: At some point, we know exactly what happens to him because eventually, 

Todd: oh, I, well, I know they show his body at the end. I just meant, I don’t think the characters themselves in the movie.

Find the body anytime soon. 

Craig: Do they? Not anytime soon. It’s not until much later after a couple others have been killed. One of the things that I, and, and they don’t technically find the body, w I’ll, well, I’ll explain when we get there, but one of the things that I read about the movie was that it’s a very typical slasher.

It’s just people getting picked off one by one. And it is, and that’s fair. But then in that same review I read, but. The kills are like notably gruesome and violent and you know, arguably some of the, you know, most gruesome kills in a slash movie. I didn’t think so. No. But they’re pretty standard really.

Todd: Whoever not wrote that has not seen the movies we’ve seen. Yeah, I 

Craig: mean, it was just, it was a fan review, but Yeah. Yeah, I didn’t like it was the Betty gets an ax to the face or a pick ax through the face. Now granted, I wouldn’t want to. You get a pick ax to the face, but it’s not like that’s particularly innovative.

Does it look good? Yeah, it looks pretty good. Um, I would say overall the effects look pretty good. Yeah. But nothing particularly notable? Uh, yeah, I don’t know what else. Peter lets everybody go except for that small group of people that I mentioned before. Uh, as I ran through the cast. That’s everybody who’s there and, uh, God, what, like seriously, I’m halfway through my notes already and 

Todd: Yeah, I know he needs.

Craig: Yeah, go ahead, Brett. Brett. Brett can’t find his costume, but that’s what I said. And then he bows and the thing is behind him. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so we assume that now that owl face is the killer. Mm-hmm. And he is. And then probably the most interesting scene, which is. Telling because it’s really not all that interesting.

They’re rehearsing the scene and Corrine one of the actresses, it’s her murder scene. Yeah. And so she’s out like doing her dance, like before she’s supposed to be killed. And then they are like, what’s your name? The actor Al Face actor. They’re like, Brett, where are you? It’s your. Your turn and to kill her to come out and kill her.

And so the owl face starts making his way onto stage very like trepidatious, like Yeah. It’s, it’s obviously not him. Like he doesn’t Yeah, he’s not doing choreography. He’s not acting. He’s just coming out on stage and everybody’s watching from the audience. Like one of the other actresses, Laurel or whatever name, name is director and all that.

Yeah, yeah. And the director, and they’re down there and they’re watching it, but obviously the all guy’s not doing what. He’s supposed to be doing. And eventually he pulls out a big knife and the director’s like, what are you doing with a knife? Yeah. He’s like, and he starts stabbing this girl right there on stage in front of everybody.

And it takes them a minute to understand that it’s really happening. And finally the director’s like, that’s not Brett. And then they all freak out and run and scream and the owl guy chases them around. But that’s just kind of it. Yeah. I, I mean, they end up getting locked in a 

Todd: bathroom. They get locked or something.

There’s a police, the police are hanging out outside, but apparently it’s raining so they can’t hear. Mm-hmm. Anything. And uh, you know, really like, I don’t know, it’s just like there’s nothing, I don’t know what to say about it. Alright. I can’t hear. Just say, so we see the movie. The movie tries to be stylish, right?

Like right. He’s got these like p o v shots and it’s got like feathers blowing around every now and then and cool. Eighties music kind of playing. I, I thought the, 

Craig: the score was really interesting, like the choice of it was interesting and good, I thought like the, it’s, it’s a, a pretty heavy rock score, so I stylistically I liked the choice, but the music itself was pretty.

Lame. Like, it, it felt like canned, like mu, almost like just like the same eight riffs, like on repeat. I wanted to like it, but it just, it it, it wasn’t as good as it No. Should have been. It, 

Todd: it was like trying. It was trying. I, I, I mean, I, I think it was trying, it just utterly like, failed cuz there was no story here.

Nothing interesting about the characters. It, it didn’t even make logical sense from, you know, time to time. There’s like p o V of, of presumably from the owl and it, it goes through the workshop area, which I was like, ooh, you know it, but it pans across the table, knife and a saw and all, all these tools on this table and then zeroes in on this drill press.

Now, I don’t know if some of you out there might not know what a drill press is, but a drill press is a big machine that’s bolted. It’s like, A big machine you’d have in your workshop that’s like bolted to a table and, or it is a table because you’re gonna put something in there and you’re gonna pull this lever down and the drill’s gonna go down.

It’s, it’s not a drill, you know, it’s not like a hand drill that you pick up and move around. It’s a fixed machine. And then later all these people, Peter, and a bunch of the actors are locked in their dressing room. And uh, an arm comes through the door and grabs Mark and they’re like, ah, okay. Get ’em off him.

Get ’em off him. And before they can get the arm off of Mark, they see a drill come through his stomach, right through the door. And I’m like, oh God, are you kidding me? This doesn’t even make sense. A drill press cannot be like ripped. From its perch, right. And carried somewhere and used like, you know, like it’s a hand drill.

It, it’s just, it’s not the same tool. It’s not portable. 

Craig: Yeah. So I wasn’t even thinking about it like, oh, I think I must have glanced. To wait, like I, I, I do remember like glancing at the screen and seeing the point of view, like looking through the workshop and I’m like, okay, great. I get it. Like he can find a weapon or whatever.

And then, then I remember the, the 

Todd: drilling. Then the drilling happens and Mark falls before and they go, ah. And what’s their next idea? Oh, they’re gonna start prowling around. Well, 

Craig: but that’s the thing, like there’s no mystery to it either. They know who the killer is. Or at least they think they do and they’re right.

And when they go out, like when they, they’re, they’re, they wanna go to the workshop because somebody remembers there’s like a skeleton key there or something, I don’t know. Um, and they think because, you know, the bad guy got weapons there, they can get weapons there too, but they walk out, like onto the stage and the director just turns on one of the spotlights and points it up into the catwalks and the killer’s right there.

Todd: Yeah. And, and they run after him. 

Craig: Yeah, the God, do they run after him or do they run away from Mark? I don’t even remember. 

Todd: Mark’s in hot pursuit. He runs up on the catwalk and the killer’s actually running from them and he’s got that in his hand and they go and it goes through some door up there. And so they break through the door and Mark turns the corner and he sees a dude in a and a owl costume sitting down and swings his ax at it.

And everyone’s like, no, no, no. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Stop. Cuz they see that this guy’s hands are tied. And of course when they pull the owl, Costume off. It turns out that it’s Brett. It’s 

Craig: Brett. See, okay, you’re right. It wasn’t just his body. They 

Todd: killed him. They killed him because Brett had, okay, so there’s a second owl costume, right?

That the owl guy propped Brett up in In right. The rafter. 

Craig: Okay. Right. So when, when, what’s his name? Peter, I think the director ax him. He killed him. Which whatever. I mean, that’s fine. It does. I guess the killer had the foresight to like set that up as a. Gag I, oh, it’s, it’s dumb, and this is all happening to this major rock score.

But even before that, I feel like there was a whole scene where Peter and Danny were out looking for the skeleton key on their own, which was totally fruitless and. They just ended up coming back empty handed like, but during that whole time there was this really loud classical music blaring and I thought that it was part of the score.

And then I realized, no, like this is happening in their world. Like this loud classical music is playing. Did you notice that? Yeah, I still don’t understand really why, 

Todd: I’m not sure where that, yeah, why that 

Craig: was. Uh, because it doesn’t amount to anything. It’s not like they go and find the source of it and turn it off and like, oh, mystery salt.

Like, no, it’s just, it’s on for a while and then it’s not, at least as far as I remember, it’s so weird and God, what else? Okay. Alright. So Laurel makes Alicia fall off the ladder and she’s just laying there at the bottom of the ladder. Unconscious, I guess. And then that’s when Peter kills bread on accident.

This, okay, here’s my F. This is great. Let’s talk about this. Sybil, the pregnant one gets grabbed from, like somebody reaches up through a hole in the floor, grabs her and pulls her down so that she’s just hanging like by her arms in this hole and her baby daddy is trying to pull her out. And eventually he does pull her out, but it’s only the top.

Part of her torso as though she has been bitten in half by, yeah, 

Todd: by a dinosaur. Alien or something. Or a 

Craig: shark. And then, and then, does Danny, the dad, the baby daddy, does he dive in the hole or does he fall in the hole? I don’t remember, but somehow he ends up down there on his back and the owl head guy cuts him in half with a chainsaw.

Now, presumably the killer also cut the girl Sybil in half with the chainsaw. He just did it really quietly because there were no chainsaw sounds. 

Todd: Oh, there were chain chainsaw sounds. God, there were chain. I’m so bored I missed a chainsaw. I can’t believe I remember it. I remember her being, the half of her being pulled up.

I don’t remember a chainsaw being a part of this movie. Yeah. He, 

Craig: he then chainsaws Danny down in the hole and you get the, you get the chainsaw noise, but not when she’s being cut in half. Maybe he cut her in half with the samurai sword. I don’t know. Oh my God. And then, okay, so then blah, blah, blah. He jumps in the hole, he gets hot in half.

The owl is coming after Peter and Laurel. Laurel gets her blouse cut off. Like he swipes at her with a sword and it just opens her blouse so her boobs are out. Now, later you see her again and she’s injured, but there’s no sign of injury at this point, just no boobs. Peter tries to bargain with the killer, but then he gets his arm sought off, and then his head chopped off with an ax.

At this point, everybody is dead except for Alicia. And the last time we saw her, she was unconscious. On the floor. This is the point where I looked at the timestamp and there was still a half an hour left, and I’m like, you’ve gotta be kidding me? Like what are we going to do for another half hour?

Everybody’s dead except for the one girl. And she’s asleep and I wish I was too. 

Todd: Oh 

Craig: God. I mean, do you? I can keep going. She wakes up. She finds injured Laurel in the shower. She hides in the adjoining shower and watches as the owl kills Laura. And then, She finds a gun and some keys and she tries to unlock the front door for 15 minutes, and she tries every single key.

We get to watch her try every single key. None of them work. I don’t know. I guess the owl’s not worried about her anymore. He’s got his own thing to do, so he’s stage, so he sets up a whole tableau of bodies of all of the dead people. Mm, on stage, which again, that imagery alone, I liked it. If I were to see a still of that, I would be like, well, this looks like an interesting movie, but it’s not.

No. I will also say there was one time that I got up to go to the bathroom and I paused and I came back and it was this, uh, you know, it was frozen on a frame of Alicia up in. The catwalk and it was kind of a wide shot with her right in the middle and, and the light and the focus on her and like nothing important was happening.

It wasn’t an important scene, but I just looked at the screen and thought that’s actually a really beautiful shot. So I do think, oh yeah, that there’s some really good cinematography here. It’s just that the movie is so bad that you don’t even. Noticed care. Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd: No, I even noticed, I even noticed the cinematography was good cuz I was looking for something positive to say about the movie and I was trying to get into it and I was trying to reconcile some of the good reviews that I had heard and some of them said, yeah, it’s got some real eighties style.

And, and it does, I mean it’s, it’s got that in the visual, not always, but at moments. Right. It, it has that. But you’re right, that doesn’t matter because it can’t possibly be visually, visually interesting enough, enough to overcome the dull lack of story, lack of character, lack of interest that you feel, uhhuh when you’re just watching these people kind of just fumble around in this movie theater and you 

Craig: don’t care about them.

Like, and this 

Todd: owl, like what? What’s he gonna do? It’s one guy and there’s five of ’em. Right. You know, like, I mean, I don’t get the sense that he’s supernatural or superhuman or No, especially good at what he’s doing. They just. He’s big, 

Craig: but I mean, he’s tall. That’s kind of the only thing. Like you’re right.

I I, but he’s got 

Todd: a fricking mask on. He shouldn’t even be able to see half of what he’s doing. I know this giant apple mask, I don’t even know where the holes are in that thing. Like there’re, 

Craig: I did notice cuz there’s a close up coming because he sets up this whole tableau of all these dead people and then he just like, Places himself in the Tableau.

Like, it’s just like there’s a couch and a, a, a chair that he’s got, you know, three or four bodies lined up on the couch. He’s got a couple of them down on the floor, it’s like the pose for the breakfast club or something. Uh, and, and he then takes a seat, you know, kind of right in the chair, right next to the couch.

So it’s just. A picture, like an a Tableau, and he just sits there and like the cat, this cat that’s been around all the time is like scream, meowing and gets up in his lap. And the the owl guy, this is when they, there’s a closeup on his mask. I could see the mask itself has eyes, like glass eyes, but just below that there are holes, um, that he can see out of.

But. God, this is so fucking stupid. So she’s, she’s at the door and this whole key ring of keys that we’ve seen her try haven’t worked as the owl man is setting up his tableau, she happens to notice that there is a single key stuck up between the floorboards of the stage. Yeah. So once he sets himself up there, she crawls under the stage, which is.

Unlike any stage I’ve ever seen. It looks like it’s made, it looks like it’s made out of like shipping pallets, right? 

Todd: Huge. It’s gaps in the which, yeah, which doesn’t match the top. I mean, there’s no, no continuity there. Yeah. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. No, it looks ridiculous. And, uh, so she, she goes and she tries to pull out the key, but despite the fact that everywhere else, the gaps between the board are a good inch, Apart, um, this key is lodged in there.

And so she has to like, use what, what is she like? A knife or knit needle. Pulls 

Todd: a nail out. Yeah. Oh, god. And, and like sticks it up through, it doesn’t even make sense, like the animal and 

Craig: is No, it doesn’t make any sense. Oh, and this is supposed to be suspenseful. Like presumably this owl guy just sat down and fell asleep petting that cat.

Or like, he’s, he’s, uh, So entranced that he’s just not noticing me. The cat has noticed and is screaming and eventually like a, again, I think that this is supposed to be suspenseful. I honestly don’t even remember. What 

Todd: happens? Oh, okay. So, uh, she tries to pull the key through, but it’s stuck. She uses the nail, she gets the key, but then as soon as she gets the key, the owl jumps up and starts running.

Like she runs out from under the stage and it’s pursuing her with a yack. So, You know, the chase is on and she runs up to the rafters again, and he runs up with him, and then she pulls out, yanks out a fire extinguisher and blasts it at him, which you know, temporarily knocks him out. And then he slips and he falls, and he grabs a extension cord that’s kind of loose up there, and he starts hanging from the rafters on an extension cord, which is alternately 12 feet in the air.

And two feet in the air, depending on the shot. See, and God, 

Craig: I thought this guy, now, granted, he’s supposed to be crazy, so maybe he’s not rational. Yeah. But when he falls, when he falls, he catches himself. And like you said, it appears. That once he catches himself, he is a mere couple of feet off the ground.

Yeah, right. It like, just let go. You’ll be perfectly, perfectly fine. But instead he decides the wiser option will be to climb 50 feet up right this electrical 

Todd: cord and shee the crabs and ax and starts hacking away at the cord. The music is pumping. And I literally have in my notes, is this supposed to be thrilling?

Well, and 

Craig: this, this chord is like, It a metal chain, like it, it, it is, it’s lit. It’s an electrical cord and it takes her like it, five or six strikes with the ax to finally get it to break. But of course that’s good because then that gives him time. Yeah. Meanwhile, probably, you know, 200, 2 20 pounds of weight are also pulling on it.

Right. And, uh, eventually he, you know, he gets all the way to the top. She finally strikes it at. Breaks and now they’re 

Todd: over the stage at this point. Am I right? Yeah. So he falls down onto the stage, but then she also goes down. Oh, she climbs down, right? Yeah. The feathers are still blowing from the feather machine, and she’s walking across the stage and she gets down off the stage and starts to walk through the audience to get to that door.

But he’s actually not on the stage. He’s like in front of the stage in where the like the first row is and he reaches out for her cuz she stupidly just walks right over his body. Even though she could have gone anywhere else, anywhere else, anywhere else. And as he reaches for her, she goes, ah. And she tips over.

A pot that had fire in it, like cocktail. I have no idea. 

Craig: Stand. What had that been burning all night? It must have been burning all night. Because I feel like earlier in the movie, like in the very beginning of the movie, grouts Keeper, Willie left and said to somebody, make sure you put out the fire. Oh really?

Yes. Oh, I that remember this at all. Oh God. And like apropo of nothing. Remember, don’t forget to put out the fire and then that’s it 

Todd: on fire. Oh God. Well she puts it out on him and so we get, you know, the Chief Slowmo man on Fire Effect and then she manages to get out the door cuz she has the key now to the ineffective cops.

Oh my God. This 

Craig: part is in infuriating. This part, this is so stupid, this infuriating. 

Todd: She’s in the hospital and. Literally, she just is sitting there and the nurse is comforting her, and she’s like, all right, well, I’m glad you’re better and stuff. She goes, oh. My watch and I was like, this 

Craig: watch has never been mentioned before.

Has it at all? 

Todd: No, 

Craig: there’s like, it would, it would almost make sense, like if it were her dead mothers watches, 

Todd: grandfathers watch something like the Pulp Fiction watch. It was stuck up the guy’s ass for years and stuff. But no, it’s, but it’s nothing. 

Craig: It’s just her watch. So I have in all caps, Alicia goes back to the theater.

Mere hours after all of this has happened to retrieve her watch, and she f she meets Willie. On his way to work, and this would be, you know, since they haven’t established it yet, the, he, she’s like, um, I really need to get in there. I need to get my watch. And he’s like, no, I can’t let anybody in. Uh, I’m under strict orders not to let anybody in.

And this would be the perfect place for her to say, but it was my mother’s and she died. No, no, nothing. It’s really expensive. 

Todd: Oh, please, please, please. It’s really expensive. She finds her watch. And then this is the moment where we’re supposed to have some kind of crazy gilo type 

Craig: revelation. Right? It took me a second to even understand what was going on.

Again, 

Todd: op apropo of nothing. Willie is just B blabbering at the mouth at her. Hey, did you read the news article? They said they found eight bodies and blah, blah, 

Craig: blah, yada, yada yada. Yeah. They’re calling it the soundstage massacre. Eight horribly mutilated bodies. 

Todd: Yeah. Suddenly she’s looking at the stage and she’s like, eight bodies were found.

Eight. Eight and then it takes this painstakingly through each of the eight songs by name, songs from the 

Craig: stage by name Doesn’t, doesn’t by name. She like name. Yeah. D does she say them out loud or in her 

Todd: head? Yeah, practically. God, it’s so on the nose and so, oh, there, where’s the ninth? And sure enough, that dude has been hanging out there this whole time, apparently after the police cleared the area and locked it up.

I, I don’t know what the fuck, you know, I just don’t 

Craig: understand. No, it’s so stupid. Like he was fully engulfed in flames. Um, so I guess. You know, between the time that she got outside to the two D cops sitting outside, one of whom is the director, I don’t know if we mentioned that or not. From the time that she gets out there till the time that the other police arrive, I guess he’s extinguished his flames and hidden himself away so that they don’t find him.

Right. Oh my God, it’s so dumb. And then so he pops up. He’s not wearing the mask anymore. So we, we. Finally get to see this guy. And he is a big guy and they, he, they’ve got him a little bit burnt, not not much at all. And then he’s like standing over her with an ax or something, but then there’s a gunshot and the killer goes down.

And it was Willie who then goes insane. Like, I didn’t understand 

Todd: Willie’s like she, he makes as he’s b blabbering to her as he lets her in. He’s criticizing her as something he’s talking about. You almost had him. You could have shot him, but 

Craig: you know, you Yeah. That gun, it pretty much fires 

Todd: itself in the gun.

You didn’t have a bullet in the chamber and you didn’t turn the safety off. And so the idea is that while she is fighting her watch Willie’s off looking for the gun, which apparently the is back in storage somewhere so that he can pull it out to show her. How to load a bullet in the chamber long after the fact, right, and turn the safety off so he happens to be there with the gun that he’s just retrieved to shooter her, and he just keeps going over and over right between the eyes, just like I said.

Right between the eyes, just like I said, like you said, like he’s going insane. He’s just, yeah, he’s lost his mind. She’s wandered off. 

Craig: He is, he’s still talking to himself. Yeah. And before, before, before she wanders off, she looks down at, at the ground and her watch is in like a million pieces. Like this is supposed to in some way, significant, significant.

It doesn’t matter who gives us. Fuck. It’s a cheap ass looking gold. Watch. Go to pennies and get another one. 

Todd: She picks it up anyway and we get this long shots close up shots on this killer’s head, and he has a bullet right in the middle of his forehead, bullet hole, and then the movie ends on a closeup of his face.

And his eyes twitch and he smiles 

Craig: and then it cuts to Marilyn Monroe on the sax again, like it cuts back. That was awesome though. Yeah. Like it cuts back to the insanity of that first surprise scene. Like we’re in an intellectual musical. That cracks me up when they were referred to it as that too. It’s an intellectual musical.

No it isn’t. Um, but that moment, When he turned and smiled at the camera and then it cut back to Marilyn Monroe on the sax. I wanted that tone for the whole movie. Yes. Yes. Make me a movie in that tone. Yes, with the exact same plot devices. That’s fine, but I want it to be over the top and ridiculous. I want Marilyn Monroe on the sax.

I want you like tongue in cheek breaking the fourth wall. I want you to just go for it and. This movie just didn’t. And so, no, like I said before, you know, God, it’s gonna end up being a short episode cause I just don’t have anything to say there. It’s just not an interesting movie to even talk about.

Really. Yeah. Huh. Which is too bad. I don’t know. Again, bad. I think that it a hundred percent think that somebody could remake this movie in a really clever and ironic way. Um, and it could be really funny. I 

Todd: thought it was heading that direction because the musical itself looked ridiculous. I mean, intentionally ridiculous.

Yeah. It was avant garde and like, you know, Marilyn Monroe on the saxophone. I mean, I was actually chuckling at the beginning of the movie. Sure. And I thought they were setting up that tone, but it was just a joke about the musical itself. But the movie itself was taking, was taking itself seriously and not to good effect.

It was just, Boring and stupid and nonsensical and really a shame, honestly. And I’m sorry, Giovanni, rod, uh, what could we say about your performance? You were great as, uh, Brett. 

Craig: I, I, honest to God really did, he was my favorite of them. Like he was, yeah, because he was really, The only one of them who had any character, the rest of them were really just indistinguishable.

They were just fodder for the killer. He at least had a personality. Yeah. He may not have been the most endearing personality, but at least he had a personality. 

Todd: Yeah. He had something like distinguishable about him. Well, the director was kind of Loony tunes. The director was kind of a self serious to almost to the point of insanity.

Kind of guy who was just high, high tension all the time, kind of. But, but yeah, you’re right. And, and, and funny enough, I mean, um, Giovanni Rod, he, he, he’s billed as John Morgan in here because he hated horror movies. Even though he started a bunch of them, he did it for the paycheck. Uh, he didn’t actually like them.

He didn’t even put his name to them. But that is what he’s probably gonna be most remembered for are these are these roles. So, um, yeah, I mean, for what it’s worth, he did a great job in this. I can’t say I liked Cannibal Fairo, but. You know his character in there. He was certainly, I think we did say it was certainly well acted, uh, by him.

What more can I say, Craig? Yeah, I don’t know. I’m trying to, I hate it when we do these tribute episodes and then we pull up these movies and then they’re just sort of shit. Well, Which is beside the point, you know? It 

Craig: is. I mean, whatever this is, you know, again, I I I’m not, it’s not like I’m a big fan of this guy.

I, I, I think I remember him from Can cannibal fair cuz I remember that story, um, that you told before. But I don’t know, I, I, I could have him mixed up with somebody else and, and you know, it’s not like I think that this. Performance in this movie was, you know, award worthy or anything. It was just fine and it was a fine performance and a not so great movie.

But, you know, still an impressive body of work. And, uh, somebody who. Got to do something in his life that a lot of us will only ever be able to dream of or live vicariously through other people. So I, I’m glad I would. How did you even hear, uh, about his passing? Did you see it on like a horror website or something?

Yeah, 

Todd: it came across my feeds, uh, several times. So, uh, either with some, um, group, some horror group I was in on Facebook or just, uh, a friend of mine who happens to be into horror or whatnot. Uh, yeah, it, it came across, uh, back in April and, uh, a couple weeks ago, and I had reached out to you then, and it was between this one and the church.

And I, the church is still on my list. It looks really fascinating and I kind of wish I had chosen that one, but I think we’ll do it eventually. Sure. Get around to it. I would’ve, I would’ve picked this one too, honestly, because I 

Craig: would’ve too, had you given me, uh, the choice and said, look at the plot synopsis.

I’m sure I would’ve chosen this one too. It does, it sounds good on paper. Um, it’s just not executed all this well. Uh, this is totally off topic, but it’s a question that I’ve been meaning to ask and didn’t get around to, and it’s a question that I know that I’ve asked before, but I don’t remember the answer.

Why do they dub these movies? Uh, like obviously the performers were speaking in English. Um, and then is it, is ADR just cheaper? Is it, yeah. 

Todd: I mean, in general, yes, it’s cheaper eight to do adr, and sometimes it’s a stylistic choice. You know what, who wants to bother with trying to get good sound on set when you know you can just gather the actors together afterwards and get a nice, clean recording in the studio.

Gotcha. Um, even though, you know, if it’s not done skillfully enough, it, it becomes quite obvious right there. It’s funny because like there’s more ADR than you would ever realize in the biggest and most popular Hollywood productions. Oh no. Yeah, I know. It’s just. You know, usually done so ni so well, and, and not usually the whole fricking movie.

Right. But yeah, these Italian movies, they just, they just shot him cheaply by not worrying too much about sound on set. Yeah. And, and sometimes they just wanted to put another voice, uh, behind it. I’m not even a hundred percent positive that that was his voice. Right. In this, in this movie. Honestly, he can speak English.

He can speak English perfectly fine. And, uh, I’m sure we’ve heard his voice in Cannibal Ox and, uh, I’ve heard him, uh, interviews on YouTube. I, I went and watched a couple interviews with him in preparation for this, but you know, he is got a little bit of an Italian accent that wasn’t so clear in this film.

So either he was able to affect a different accent or they ended up dubbing him with somebody else. 

Craig: I would be, I would suspect it was the latter. Yeah. Because I now, God, I don’t, I just watched it yesterday. I don’t even remember. But they didn’t speak with Italian accents, did they? No. No. Yeah, so, whatever.

Anyway, um, yeah, no, I, I can’t, I can’t recommend this movie. The funny thing is, as soon as I saw that owl mask, I thought that I had seen it before because I know that I have seen that mask before Harry Potter. 

Todd: Is it? No, I’m just kidding. 

Craig: I was gonna say, uh, you, I watch a lot of those, like the hundred scariest movies you’ve ever seen or, uh, the hundred Killers, blah, blah, blah.

So I’m sure that I’ve just seen that it’s been in one of these, uh, in clips somewhere. But it, I, me, I mean, cuz you see, it’s one of the very first things you see and I honestly, my first thought was, Wait, have we already done this movie? Because we’ve done so many at this point that I forget some of the ones that we’ve done.

Um, but anyway, I, I quickly realized that. No, I was just familiar with the, the costume. Um, and frankly, if you have any interest in it at all, I think you could see the most interesting parts by like doing like a Google image search. Like look at that tableau that the killer sets up at the end. That’s that.

I, I actually liked that. I liked the look of it. Yeah. And I, I don’t know, God, I think of the dumbest things when I’m watching this, but, uh, I was like, wow, they’re all doing a really good job of keeping their eyes open. 

Todd: Yeah. Oh no, 

Craig: I didn’t see any of them Blink once. 

Todd: That literally crossed my mind as I was watching it too.

I’m like, man, they’re playing dead really, really well. 

Craig: I, I thought they were too, and I liked the look of the makeup. It didn’t look real, but it looked like, you know, good e spooky corpse makeup. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, like the one girl, uh, is cut completely in half, so they clearly got her rigged somehow.

Halfway through the floor and there’s a, a fun shot where the, the director had his head chopped off and his head is sitting on a table and it looks good. So you can tell that he must have been sitting under the table. And then, uh, the killer goes to pick his head up and you see him grab the actor’s head and move it just a little bit before it cuts back to a wide shot, and you see him lifted off the table.

And so it’s obviously a prop, but. Pretty seamless in the way that it was shot. Um, and so there were, there were things like that that looked good, but it’s, I just don’t think it’s worth the time. I don’t think it’s worth an hour and a half of your 

Todd: time. Yeah, I, I totally agree. Sad to say. I mean, thank you for listening to our podcast.

Just don’t see this movie. Yeah. 

Craig: Can’t recommend it. 

Todd: Rest in peace. Giovanni Lombardo, Rache. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. You can find us just by searching two guys in a chainsaw podcast on Google and, uh, find us on anywhere. A podcast is where you can leave a review or, uh, just shoot us an email or leave a comment on our website or on our.

Facebook page or shoot us a message on Twitter, something on our Instagram feed. Just all of those places online where you could leave us a message. Let us know what you thought of this. Let us know what movies or films we should do next. And if you are so motivated, uh, to join the club and support us, please consider our Patreon patreon.com/chainsawpodcast.

Until next time. I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

From “The Book of Saw” comes a tale you might just wanna leave on the shelf. Chris Rock’s Saw not-really-a-sequel vanity project doesn’t exactly showcase the comedian’s considerable acting talents. Join us as we puzzle through Saw, reimagined as a police procedural – for better or for worse.

Spiral (2021)

Episode 344, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well Craig, this week you picked the movie, uh, in the movie that you picked, so I was very excited about it. 2020 Ones Spiral from the book of Saw starring Chris Rock of All People. And you know how much I love the SAW movies.

I think I’ve talked about that here many, many times. That was just a. Man, it was just so great. Those first, I don’t know what they were, five or six years when they were coming out every year on Halloween. And I would just go by myself and I would sit down with some popcorn I couldn’t get, at first I couldn’t get anybody to go with me.

And then after that I just didn’t want anybody to go with me cuz it’d been such a tradition. Mm-hmm. And I just sat and I enjoyed the toastiness and the, all the traps and the gore and all that stuff. I just, it just really spoke to me. The first movie just blew me away. Just, I just loved it. I loved the puzzle aspect of it.

I loved all that stuff. So to find out that they were making a saw movie, but they weren’t calling, it saw nine and, and it started Chris Rock and it’s called Spiral. I’m thinking, how are they gonna make this different and all that. So I was very interested to see it and I was really happy that you chose it.

And of course this is my first time seeing it. So What made you decide to pick this one this week? You know, that I 

Craig: just, horror is pretty much all I watch. Uh, and honestly at this point, I will take just about anything I can get. That’s not to say that this, I scraped this from the bottom of the barrel. I am daily kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel cause I’ve just seen so much.

But this was one of those happy surprises where I was just scrolling through Hulu of all places, cuz they’re not known really for their horror election, but Right. It, it popped up, it was there and I was interested in it too for the same reasons that you were, I was never as big a fan of the franchise as you were.

I thought the first movie was clever and then after that it was just, everyone had to be, how can we make it more intense and more gross and Right. Uh, and I, I, I get it. And, and that’s admirable. I, I suppose I, I, I’m just not really a. Big Gore hound, like that’s not what excites me. It doesn’t particularly bother me, but that’s not what I’m going into a movie for.

So. Right. And, and plus as it went on, like, but I, I kept up with them for like three or four and then somewhere around four or five it, they got so convoluted that I just couldn’t Oh yeah. Eat. I just couldn’t, I couldn’t even keep up with who was who and what was connected to what, like they would do those famous, you know, montages at the end that would like explain everything and I’d be like, I still don’t get it.

I dunno what’s going. Oh my God. 

Todd: Well, I mean, as much as a fan of this, of the movies as I am, I only see each one of them once. Well, actually they, I think I’ve seen the original and, uh, maybe the first and second one a couple times each, but I’m with you on that. They get so convoluted. I mean, it’s obvious, you know, when they wrote the first one, Lee Wano and, um, and, and James won when they, when they did the first ones, like kind of their first big movie and mm-hmm.

Uh, you know, They weren’t necessarily intending to make sequels. And so in order to make sequels and keep jigsaw in there, I mean, you know, like it just went to extreme lengths and he’s got it apprentices and uhhuh. He’s, he’s got these elaborate things that he’s planned for well after his death that somehow worked together.

Right, right. I mean, it’s, it’s not only convoluted, but it gets kind of unbelievable that all this stuff could fit together so well. But for me anyway, I don’t know, I just see the movies as as big puzzles. I’m with you. I’m not a big Gore hound either. When I saw the first one, I was pretty shocked. I guess that was the beginning of the torture porn genre or whatever was it was around there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where suddenly him and, and um, and with hostel, with Eli Roth and them. Right, right. Like, suddenly there were these movies that were just, not only were they just a bit more extreme than anything that we’ve ever seen. They just lingered and kind of like, This very hyperrealistic. Yeah. Human pain, but also they were pretty mainstream movies.

Right. 

Craig: I mean, from a historical perspective, it’s really interesting because I feel like what they were doing is they were really pushing boundaries. Hmm. And for whatever reason in that time, the MPA or whoever was just allowing those boundaries to be pushed. Like it’s unbelievable, really. I know the stuff, you know, you think about the stuff in the eighties and nineties, think West Cravens battles with the M P A A, anything that they would’ve been trying to pass off for an R rating would’ve been tame compared to all of this saw slash oh God hostile stuff.

And yet this, this stuff. Got through, but, and whatever, I mean, it’s just change. I still don’t 

Todd: understand why I don’t, I really don’t even the director of this, I was reading some interviews, uh, Darren, uh, Lynn Bowsman directed this one. He also directed the first two sequels, I think. Yeah. Uh oh no. First three sequels really.

Uh, two, three, and four. And he, he even said, he said there were a couple scenes in this movie where they had to cut. He said they had to cut about three minutes worth of gore out. And he said, honestly, I don’t understand why. I think it’s, I don’t either. It’s just a different time. He said, if you look at even like American Horror Story, he said, there is worse stuff that has been put on TV in the last few years.

Than what we had in this movie that we were asked to cut out. So maybe things are kind of going backward back a little bit, you know, to a more, slightly more conservative as far as the MPA is concerned. I don’t know. Who knows? 

Craig: I mean, we’ve talked about that too. I, I think the MPA is on life support. Like, I, I just don’t even think that there really a significant entity anymore.

Nobody, they’re 

Todd: not relevant, really. You 

Craig: know? I mean, right. Yeah. But, but, so anyway, so this was a happy surprise. It popped up and I had wanted to see it too, for the same reasons that you did. I was interested in that. It was presumably, I mean, I really didn’t know all that much about it, but presumably kind of its own standalone story in the saw world, and that mm-hmm.

Appealed to me like, oh, okay. If I can start fresh with a new story, right. I’m, I’m down. It’s 

Todd: kind of a way of rebooting it without actually rebooting it. Right. It’s sort of like, yes, bringing it back without having to. Keep the same tired formula of the other stuff. Right. Right. They’re not right. In this case, it’s almost like a copycat killer.

Yeah, 

Craig: it is. And I was also intrigued by the casting of Chris Rock. It was weird, you know, and, and I, I think everybody thought it was a surprise when it was announced that he was, uh, involved and, and not only starring in it, but writing and executive producing. Like, what? Yeah. Like that, that Chris Rock.

Right. But I was intrigued because I, I’m a fan of Chris Rock. I think he’s a really funny guy. Um, and I was really interested to see how that, like, like is he gonna bring that Chris Rock thing to this movie or is it gonna be like, like you’ve never seen Chris Rock before? Like, why I didn’t know what it was gonna be.

Todd: I was thinking about this, this whole time for reasons that I’m sure we’ll get into, but like Chris Rock and Jim Carey. I’m trying to think of any of the other major a-list Saturday Night live level comedians of that era that ever jumped into serious acting. Think, if I’m not mistaken, this is Chris Rock’s first foray into serious acting 

Craig: that I’m aware of.

I mean, he was in like New Jack City or something, but he just had like, I think he was like an expert, had a bit roll or something like that. 

Todd: It, it, Jim Carey did the Truman Show and kind of blew us all away. It was like, wow, this guy, he can play drama. Yeah, he, he really can. He really can. He’s quite good.

Chris Rock on the other hand, uh, was struggling through this film and Oh God, was this, I just, I think it’s been a while before I’ve seen a movie that just shocked me at how bad. It was, I’m sorry, but I’m just laying all out there right now. I could not believe how uncomfortably bad this movie made me feel like I was just, I’m watching it and I was just almost embarrassed that this thing existed and that all these people participated in it.

I felt so sorry for them because it’s so bad. 

Craig: That is hilarious. That’s so funny. Before I respond to that, I also wanna give Adam Sandler props. He can do it too. He’s one of those funny SNL guys, you’re, he can do drama too. Um, I was really interested to see, cuz I started watching it and you know, you, I’m sure the audience knows too, we’re on opposite sides of the world.

So like, literally my day is your night and vice versa. And so yeah, I’m watching it and I wanna text you as I’m watching it and I know you’re in bed,

like I just wanna be, I just wanna be texting you like. What is happening? Like what, what is this movie? I, uh, I was so surprised by it. Uh, but I’m really ex Now that I know that you think that it’s awful. I’m really, really excited to talk about it because I liked it and I can’t figure out why, because there’s no, why there’s no good reason to like it, but I did.

Oh 

Todd: my God. I, I just don’t understand, I don’t understand it from my perspective. Alright, this guy who’s done three of the saw movies who arguably sort of set the standard for how the saw movies should be laid out, kind of like breaks the rules. Not only that, but in just basic filmmaking ways. One of the biggest problems I had with this movie was, okay, and I, and I think this was done intentionally.

All right. If you read interviews with them and you read what they have to say about it, they were like, we were really excited to take the SAW franchise in a new direction and make it like more like a police procedural uhhuh, because you know, the police have always been a part of the saw, which is true.

Yeah, right, right. There’s always some point in which the cops are trying to hunt down the killer and they’re always a step or two behind and all that. So we just thought we’d bring that to the forefront. So they do this and it becomes what is essentially the most hilariously bad police procedural, the most simplistic.

Stupid. It’s really bad. Like it was written by a 12 year old who, who watched some police procedurals who just put all the cliche pieces together. All right. They put that down and the only connection it ends up having with the soft franchise is that the people who die are in these like weird saw traps, right?

That’s it. All. The only connection has is the people who die are in these weird saw traps. The clincher on it is, is that all of the tension that you get with the SAW movies, which is, oh, they’re in these traps. They have a decision to make, they’ve gotta like do this kind of weird puzzley thing or do something really horrible to themselves in order to, to save themselves is completely lost because in every single instance, you know they’re dead.

You see them get into the trap, then it cuts away, and then the next thing you know, the police have discovered a body and they’re hurrying off to the scene and they find the body, and then we get a flashback. To that person in the trap. So there’s, there’s no question as to whether they’re gonna get out or not.

We know every single 

Craig: time they’re gonna die. Oh, that only happens that one time with the dude with the finger trap. 

Todd: It happened every time. Every time. Except for the end, the very end. Uh, oh God. There’s, 

Craig: I, there’s nothing good about it, but 

Todd: there’s nothing good about this movie. 

Craig: It’s, uh, it really, like you said, like a 12 year old No, I, I think it’s like somebody went to chat g p t and was like, yes, give us a saw movie, but it’s a, a Please procedural starring Chris Rock.

And this is exactly what AI came up with. Yeah. And it’s hilariously bad. Like that question of what is it gonna be like, is it gonna be Chris Rock? Like you’ve never seen him? No. It is just going to be Chris Rock. In a serious movie. 

Todd: It’s, it’s, no, it’s gonna be Chris Rock. Trying really, really hard not to crack a smile in a serious movie, because that is what his acting looks like.

He’s trying so hard to not crack a smile that he looks uncomfortably meme through the whole thing. He’s just shouting at people and he’s got really bizarre looks on his face. There’s one point where he gets in someone’s face and yells at them. The camera lingers a little too long and you get this cartoonish eye twitch.

Did you catch that? No. Oh my God. Because, you know, I love Chris Rock, by the way. I freaking love him. I thought his latest comedy special was one of the funniest things I’d seen. He’s hilarious. And. And the thing that I always think about, what I see Chris Rock in the comedy special is I don’t think I’ve ever seen Chris Rock without a smile on his face.

You know? Yeah. You know how people have like a bitchy resting face like Chris Rock has the opposite, whatever the opposite of a bitchy resting face, a happy resting face, Chris Rock. I think his face is just naturally, his muscles just naturally contort him into a smile just when he’s sitting at home thinking of nothing.

And so to see him in this trying to look mean, he’s trying so hard, God bless him, and it just, It just feels awkward. It looks awkward, and sometimes it just looks ridiculous 

Craig: sometimes. Okay. So, so when he’s just being like the hard-nosed cop, that the, those parts didn’t bother me so much. I even thought, you know, there are people like this who are, you know, kind of like gruff and serious, but they’re also really cynical.

And so they, you know, they use a lot of sarcasm and cynicism. Like, uh, I can buy that. He’s maybe a little, you know, funnier than most of these guys would be. But in the serious moments, which there aren’t a whole lot of, But there are a couple of the serious moments where I’m like, oh, this is just painfully, painfully bad.

Yeah. Like there’s, there’s, there’s one scene that’s a flashback, so you get to see it a couple of times where he’s a cop and hi, he’s got a whole backstory. I’m sure we’ll get into it, but like, his old partner was corrupt and, and shot a witness. And you, you see this happen in flashback and you see Chris Rock run in and go like, oh no, what happened?

Like, and, and it’s just the, oh God, it’s terrible. It looks like they, like they’re shooting a commercial with somebody they pulled out of the mall like it’s, oh boy, that’s terrible. It’s really, really bad. Now that being said, the whole genesis of this movie is that comedian, Chris Rock likes saw movies being an Aless celebrity.

He called up the producers and was like, I’d like to do it. Saw movie. And they were like, okay. They couldn’t 

Todd: say no. He said, here’s my pitch. And everybody was like, we love it. And then he just, all right, he did it. Let’s do it. 

Craig: Poor guy. And, and he, I don’t even know if IMDB gives him a writing credit, but, uh, he clearly wrote a lot of this, at least his own stuff.

You have to just play his introduction. Yes, because it’s standup comedy. It is. He just straight up does a standup comedy routine for the first three or four minutes of the show, Forrest Gump with special needs, man. What, what was the name of the girl? Jenny. Jenny. He did everything for Jenny. This mother did some shit.

He jogged across the whole country. He beat China in ping pong. You know, hard. That shit is, he is a war hero. Who the is nicer than Poors Gump, his best friend was a er in a white boy with no legs. He made a billion dollars selling shrimp. And she still wouldn’t . Hey, eventually they got together. Yeah. After she got aids, as soon as she got aids, she’s like, Hey, Flores, 

Todd: it’s a hundred percent Chris Rock for the first, like five to almost 10 minutes.

Really? Like when he meets his new partner and all that, he’s kind of being well wise ass to him. It, it just sounds, you’re right. It just like pulled straight out of his comedy routine. And I did read that, that he did, like the director was saying that he was coming up with stuff or on the fly he rewrote a lot of the things, like he was very actively involved in the writing.

They said he agonized over scenes and stuff. Like I just, Chris Rock, he’s, he’s such a hard worker. He cared so much about this project. He just put his all into every single scene we did. And I’m thinking, Oh man, I just feel bad talking about how bad this is. You know, cuz I love the guy so 

Craig: much, but see, and maybe it’s my love for him, I don’t know because like ultimately I thought like I enjoyed it.

I, but I think part of the reason I was enjoying it, on the one hand it is intentionally funny. Like it’s Chris Rock, he’s crack of it all. Jokes like just crack through the whole thing. He’s cracking jokes and they’re like ridiculous scenes. Just absolutely. Stupid. Stupid. Yes. That, that are like out of a buddy cop comedy.

Todd: Yeah. But, but out of place, 

Craig: existing. Right. It, it doesn’t make any sense. I’m ta I’m thinking specifically, there’s one point where he and his new partner are searching for information or something and they get tipped off to this drug dealer and it’s a meth dealer and they pull up and Chris rock’s like, so do you know how this works?

And the partner’s like, oh yeah, this is a meth house. They send down a bucket and you send up some money and, uh, they send down some meth and Chris rock’s. Like somebody’s been watching the wire like. That joke is so ironic because like, yeah. The writers of this movie have been watching The Wire. It is such a stupid Yeah.

Set up. And then it’s a whole shtick where Chris Rock puts on a ghetto character and is like trying to scam for meth and it’s huge. It is a, it is a blatantly comedic scene in what is otherwise a very serious horror movie. It’s weird. Yeah. 

Todd: Well, there’s so much of this. He, he wanted to do this movie about police brutality and make a point and all that, which I’m kind of behind.

I thought it sounded like an interesting direction, but then the way that it comes across everything is just so on the nose. Everything is so cliche. Everything is so laughably like this police force. Is so corrupt. Oh God. Like every, that’s one of them. They’re like cartoon cor. It’s like the an maniacs, every single one of them running around openly shooting, you know, innocent people and things like that.

And they just laugh about how they cover it up. I mean, if you’re trying to make a point, you know, if you’re trying to have some social commentary here, you need to have something believable. And this is so on the nose that there’s nothing believable about it. It just plays as a dumb nineties straight to video police procedural.

Craig: Well, and like you said, everything is so cliche and stereotypical. Mm-hmm. Like Chris Rock is, you know, uh, he’s disgruntled and he can’t trust anybody on this team or whatever. And which he shouts at them all, like, every few minutes he yells at them, I can’t trust you. Like, he, like just, just open animus between him and everybody else.

And I guess it all stems from the fact that, uh, five years ago or something, I don’t know, maybe even longer than that, like 13, 15 years ago, something like that, his, uh, partner was corrupt and shot a witness and he turned him in and like that, he turned his back on the team like he wasn’t loyal or whatever.

And now, 15 years later, they’re all still pissed about it. He’s still pissed about it. He’s also Okay. Before I, before I go to the next one, the, the captain, it’s just, it, it is like, it’s in any other like comedy cop movie where the captain just all, all his dialogue is yelled at the top of his lungs. Yes.

Like the, they do that here, except with a sexy lady, but she’s the same character. Like she’s constantly just yelling and we have to be a team and, uh, uh, it’s just so, so silly and my favorite part that I had no idea. And so when it happened, I was like, what? Chris Rock’s dad was the former captain and he is played by Samuel L.

Jackson of all people giving his best Samuel L. Jackson. I told Alan that I was talking about the movie and I was like, um, and Samuel L. Jackson today, he’s so good. He’s so Samuel L. Jackson and Alan’s like, Is Samuel L. Jackson ever anything but Samuel Jackson. I was like, no, I love that. Never really.

Todd: It’s so great. He just gets to play himself. Yeah. And collect a paycheck. I really admire that man. Oh God. 

Craig: Oh yeah. He’s great. He’s hilarious too. And he’s funny in this movie, but like, ugh, I, I’m always, you know, nervous about stereotyping anybody, but when people play into, I feel like they’re playing into certain stereotypes here.

Yes. When Chris Rock comes home to his own apartment, which is of course like this big beautiful studio, apartment, all brick walls and stuff. Interesting. Like lighting. Oh, that’s so silly. He comes around the corner and we are shocked to see Samuel Jackson sitting there. And of course they’re father and son, which we learn after they’re done pointing guns at each other and, but then they’re whole.

Scene. Oh. Felt like an episode of Stanford and Sun. Like, oh, it was so weird. Oh, 

Todd: so weird. I don’t even know how to pinpoint why I couldn’t 

Craig: tell if it was supposed to be jokey. Like I think it 

Todd: was jigsaw copycat. 

Craig: That could be difficult. What are you saying? Nothing. Just, you know, being lead detective outta responsibility.

You got a problem with that or you just scared I’m gonna embarrass you. See that right there? This ain’t about you. You always making shit about you. That’s the shit that ruins your career and your marriage. So now you’re giving fatherly advice. What you talking about Willis? These were both very intelligent men and same, and, and good actors and have been in the industry forever.

They’re not novices. They know what they’re doing. And this had to have been played for comedy. It, it just had to have 

Todd: been. You know, I don’t, I guess, but the thing, okay, so the thing is that his father was the former police chief, and he eventually got kicked out. And then his second in command, who was the woman you were talking about, become, became the police chief.

And so much of this movie is doled out over time that we are always kind of confused as to what went on and what 

Craig: happened now. And it’s, it’s dolled out over time in really clunky flashbacks. Really 

Todd: clunky, like just random flashbacks. Just suddenly there’s a flashback connected to nothing, just suddenly, boom, we’re in a flashback, but we don’t get all the flashbacks.

Craig: Right. And why are we parsing it out? Yeah. It, it’s not like there’s some big mystery really that gets uncovered until the very, very end. But you could have just given us all that exposition at once. Yes. Like we didn’t need to see it every few minutes. 

Todd: Well, that’s the thing, like of course with a saw movie, there’s mystery, there’s things you don’t know.

You know, like a couple of the saw movies like, or many of them, right? Like the characters who are in there, they don’t even know how they’re related until later, you know, like Right, right. Like they don’t even know why they’re all in there. But these are not those things. No. These are just basic information that we could have learned about all the characters in the beginning.

It would’ve made things much less confusing. Right, right. Honestly, I would argue would’ve added to the enjoyment of the movie. You don’t just put mystery in for the sake of mystery. It’s, it’s frustrating. And so we hear illusions to people and things that happened and oh, his dad was sort of kicked off and there’s something that happened with his partner and there was corruption and whatever.

But like it takes forever for us to find out what this is, and it’s kind of confusing how it’s doled out. And then you’re just like, oh, okay. So what happened was his partner showed up to question a witness who had witnessed some, another policeman. Who had done something. What was it? I don’t remember it.

It doesn’t, I don’t know. It doesn’t even matter. I don’t even think we know. And, uh, when the witness said, yeah, I saw that policeman do this and I’m happy to testify against him, officer, then his partner just pulls out his gun and shoots him dead in front of his son. He drops a gun there by the guy. And then Chris Rock runs in says, what happened?

What happened? He’s like, oh, oh, he pulled a gun on me and shot me. The, it’s obvious, I think only Chris Rock’s character sees the kid. So he kind of peeks around the corner where the kid is cowering and does like a shh kind of thing, like don’t come out. And then later on, Chris Rock turns this guy in, says that he did this thing and he gets excoriated for it.

And then somehow, I don’t remember exactly how Samuel Jackson, Chris Rock’s father, who was the, the captain. Gets angry at another 

Craig: guy. And because everybody hated him, then he, he was in some situa not, I’m talking about Chris Rock. And so he was in a dangerous situation. He called for backup and they ignored him.

Jesus, dick ignored him, right? They were right there. They could have helped, and they just ignored him. And, uh, he ended up getting shot. And, um, Samuel Jackson comes and does this ridiculous scene where he, he wants to know who you know, was closest, uh, and who ignored the call for backup or whatever, and is he’s gonna check the records and as soon as he finds out he’s gonna put a bullet in the head of whoever it was.

And then this one cop, like, kind of Shys way is like, oh, it was you, right? And it was this guy, but he like beats the crap out of him. He’s like, you’re done. And like, what is happening here? And, and they never. Uh, in my mind I’m thinking, oh, well that must be why Samuel l Jackson’s not the captain anymore, but they never allude to that.

They never explained it. Really. No. I I assumed that maybe he would get in trouble for beating up that guy, but they never said that or showed 

it. 

Todd: And I mean, let’s just talk about how stupid all this is. I mean, well, hold on, hold 

Craig: on. I wanted, I, we’ve done a good job of setting it up, but I feel like at this point, if you haven’t seen the movie and you care about.

Like the mystery Stop now. Yeah, stop. Because I don’t, I don’t know how we can, I really don’t even know how we can move forward with the plot without spoiling it pretty much right away. Because one of my, one of the things that I was so excited to talk about seriously, turn it off. Cause I’m about to spoil it here in two seconds.

It is so blatantly obvious who the killer is within like the first 15 minutes. Yes. 

Todd: Yes, exactly. I I called it a hundred percent. I mean, there’s no, there’s no question who it could be at the, yeah, yeah. There. So there was one little 

Craig: thing that happened, but it was a little thing 

Todd: that I’ve seen it bazillion times and I was like, 

Craig: oh, he’s the killer.

Obviously. Yep. And then more things kept happening. I’m like, like, duh. Like I was, I was so right. It’s so obvious. I was really proud of myself. I’m, I’m bragging. I’m like, Alan, I totally figured out who it was in the first 20 minutes, and then I’m reading the trivia on I M D B and that’s one of the things like, yeah, everybody figured it out.

Todd: Right? You get really proud in early on you think, oh, that’s great. And then you hear all these like extra quips and ex extra like comments and things that he makes. So then you’re like, yeah, well, I mean, you kind of have to be dumb by top tip. Figured it out even if you didn’t catch it early on. Right. 

Craig: Oh God.

I mean, even if you just got a plot outline of this movie, I think that when this character is introduced, you’d be like, oh, it’s them. Yeah. It’s, it’s pretty clunky. But the i, the setup of the movie, ultimately it is, A jigsaw copycat. Yeah. And so you do get those elements. I mean, that’s one of the very first things, the very first things, uh, it opens up in like a fair and, uh, a woman gets her purse stolen and a man starts chasing after the thief and, and chases him down, I think into the subway tunnels or something, and then gets knocked out by somebody wearing a pig’s head, which, you know, comes from the series or whatever.

Mm-hmm. So you get these little, honestly, this movie felt like those direct to video hellrazor sequels that were never intended to be Hell Razer movies, but they were just movies that they had, and they were like, uh, we can write in some sinna bytes. That’s what this felt like. Like, it just, it just felt like any serial killer movie.

Yes. Or, um, any episode of Criminal Minds. Yes. But make it saw. 

Todd: Well, this was my point that I, I was kind of trying to make at the very beginning is it’s just a police procedural movie. The only thing that connects it to the SAW franchise is these traps and the mention of that. It’s a copycat of the jigsaw killer, but there’s nothing else about it that echoes the Saw franchise.

Every serial killer has a motive, and this guy has a motive too. Right. So, I mean, that’s nothing unique. SA had this kind of like deep philosophy kind of about, you know, right. These, these traps and these ways to bring people in. But also, like, part of the thing is that these people have choices to make, like they can redeem themselves, right?

Well, 

Craig: supposedly these people could too. But you’re also right that, that the stakes seem lower. I mean, yeah. Uh, it’s hard to describe cuz it’s kind of like saw light, but in a way it also kind of hearkens back more to the first one, which makes sense because this guy is new at this, you know? Yeah. I guess Jigsaw.

Jigsaw worked on this for years and years and years. Like, he could set up whole booby trapped houses, right? That was a whole different thing, but I don’t know. But it is, it just seems like, you know, make it a serial killer. Give him a motive. The motive’s fine, whatever, but just make it saw and, and so they just steal things from those movies.

They steal the killer wearing the pig’s head in this case. It makes sense because it comes down, they’re dealing with cops and the killer doesn’t like cops, so, you know, he’s making fun. He’s, he’s mocking them by wearing pigs heads and leaving pig corpses around. There’s that. Um, he marks, uh, every crime scene with a spiral that is the spiral from Billy the puppet’s cheek.

So there’s that connection. Um, he leaves video messages where he says things for the victims, I wanna play a game. And then he explains the trap and what they have to do, and there are traps. Um, and then he communicates with the cops via video. And he also uses a little marionette puppet. Right? It’s not, it’s not Billy the Puppet, but it’s a little pig marionette that kind of looks like Billy.

And like, that, that wasn’t even written in the script. At some point somebody was like, nah, you know, uh, saw a puppet. We, we need a puppet. And they’re like, right. 

Todd: It’s like, it’s like, okay. It’s like what Bill obs Jr. Told us about when they filmed one of the children of the corn sequels and somebody Kingdom had said, you missed two elements.

They’re no children and there’s no corn. Add some more scenes and then we can, we can distribute it. Yeah. 

Craig: Put, put a puppet in it. Just, just put a puppet in. Right. And then so they did, and that’s fine. Whatever. Um, and what, so the first guy who gets set up in a trap, he gets strung up in a subway tunnel over the tracks with this contraption on his head that is a vice on his tongue.

And this video comes on and it’s, oh God, I don’t even remember what the, what does it look like? Is it the pig head guy? What is the 

Todd: uh, the thing that talks to him is, um, oh God, I don’t remember either. All I remember is the voice is like, the saw voice was creepy. This is like a soft spoken, the opposite of the saw voice.

I wondered 

Craig: if it was a woman. I mean, it’s still manipulated, like it still sounds. Somehow altered, like it’s speaking through some kind of filter or something. Yeah. But yeah, it, it sounds very different, which they intended, they wanted it to sound different and they tried a bunch of different things.

Initially they had the idea that it would be like a child’s voice, and then they thought that sounded stupid. And then they tried to alter the actor who plays the actual killer. They tried to alter his voice and that didn’t work. And I, so. They ended up with what they ended up with. It sounds different.

Hello, detective Boswick. I want to play a game. The three train is arriving in two minutes. It is up to you to decide if this will be your final stop. You have taken the witness stand many times and railroaded innocent people with your lies, putting them away in jail today. It is you who will be railroaded.

You have one chance to live. Tear from your mouth, the tongue that has so often been used to lie and to deceive. Take a leap of faith and you will live. Only your weight will rip away your lying tongue and save you live or die. 

Todd: Make 

Craig: your choice, but he doesn’t. At least not in time. Um, that’s another thing.

The these traps, this killer must have been impatient because whereas in saw sometimes they had to agonize for a really long time. No, these folks have like 30 seconds. Like yeah, decide. Decide up to you’re dead. 

Todd: I mean, honestly, this kind of bothered me a little bit. I look, I’m not going to software believability, but Right.

So many of these setups like, come on, please. No, this isn’t gonna happen. Like there’s a subway train that’s gonna be coming by in two minutes. This guy just kind of woke up on his own and, right, right. Then this thing came on. Perfect timing. Yeah. This hap, I think almost every trap is like this, where they kind of wake up on their own.

They got the perfect timing for the killer. None of these things are actually clever. Like this is why I like the Saul movies is cuz these traps had these kind of clever, almost ironic, I don’t know. Like here in a way. Yeah. All right. So he lied on the stand and we’re gonna rip your tongue ass so you can’t talk anymore.

There’s a, a bit, a hint of irony there. It just didn’t go far enough. It wasn’t clever enough like most of 

Craig: the other songs. Yeah, it’s, yeah, it’s not, it’s not as clever as it thinks it is. Well, the whole movie opens up. We skipped this, it opens up, it seems like Chris Rock is a, a robber and it’s, he’s like, he robs this drug dealer or something, and it turns out it was a sting and his cover got blown or whatever.

Anyway, he gets sent out. Uh, on this guy who got hit by the subway train and realizes it’s not a homeless guy as they had expected, they don’t figure out who it is right there, right? But then they go back to the precinct and a box is delivered. There’s this whole like, valentine, what’s, what’s, uh, my bloody valentine.

There’s a whole my bloody Valentine thing too. 

Todd: It’s like my bloody Valentine’s 

Craig: where a, a box gets delivered with a bloody flash drive, I think. And he puts it in and there’s a message that’s like, one of your men wouldn’t redeem himself and he’s not gonna be the last one. And it shows this spiral and Chris rock’s.

Like, I know that building. That’s the courthouse. And it’s, that’s another thing that’s hilarious to me. Like every time they see one of these locations, somebody’s like, I know where that is. 

Todd: One. One of the locations is, it’s two 

Craig: blocks away from here. It’s an underpass. Right? 

Todd: Okay. Well, shouldn’t everybody know where that is then?

I mean, if it’s two freaking blocks away from your station, this is how silly it gets. Well, he goes out to investigate this, but not before he gets assigned a new partner, which is the most. Stereotypical cliche thing you could possibly do in a cop 

Craig: movie. Well, and he, even Chris Rock even kind of calls it ow.

He’s got a whole shtick about not wanting a partner, not needing a partner. And this guy who plays his partner, max Menella, hi. In the, in the movie, his name is, uh, William Shank, but Max Menella, he’s this young, good looking actor. He’s been around for a while. Um, I’ve seen him in several things. The thing that I recognized him most from is he is a, a, a main character on The Handmaid’s Tale.

Uh Oh yeah. Yeah. And has been from the beginning, like they’re in their like fourth or fifth season or something and he’s been a central character throughout and he’s good. I like this actor. But you’re right, it’s so stereotypical and stupid. Like he’s the rookie that gets thrown in with the down on his luck cop that nobody likes, and he’s a big grouch and.

It’s also stupid. I know. It’s so cliche. And, uh, Chris Rock’s basically just dragging this kid around. He has nothing to do. They go on this first thing together, the clue leads them into the courthouse. They go to the courthouse and they’re, they find another box, and inside that box is a tongue and the badge.

And from the badge they get the badge number, which leads them to the cop that it was, it turns out it was one of Chris Rock’s friends, like, so he has to go and like comfort the cop’s widow, which I thought surely would result in something, but no, it’s just an extra five minutes of the movie. It’s so frustrating.

That’s the really, the rest of the movie is just this investigation, but cops keep getting killed in these traps. But really there’s only a 

Todd: couple more, right? Yeah. The, the next guy is this guy Fitch. He’s the guy who ignored, uh, his backup call Chris, the banks’ backup call earlier, which was so dumb. Like, really these cops on a stakeout.

Are literally just gonna, one of them calls were back up and they’re just gonna chuckle and smoke cigars in their car while the other one possibly gets murdered. Like, 

Craig: it really was stupid. It was especially stupid because then when they hear the gunshots, like they’re super concerned, like, oh shit. Oh shit, they’re really, what’s gonna happen?

Like, did you think it was just around like, it’s so stupid. 

Todd: It’s really dumb. So that’s the flashback. Anyway, he gets abducted and he’s put in this, uh, trap where there’s this device that he’s like sitting in water and his fingers are gonna get ripped off or he’s gonna get electrocuted. Both end up happening.

So again, it’s this 

Craig: one especially, there wasn’t even enough time for the trap to work, like he was strung up. Um, and his fingers were in like, what looked like those like Chinese finger traps that we used to play with your kids, kind of and on wires. And they were getting pulled and eventually it got pulled like under a bar.

So his arms got stuck. He couldn’t go forward anymore and it was pulling his fingers off. But he was doing it like, yeah, he, he had to control it. He had to like bite down on something to make it go, and he was doing it like he paused for a second, but then he, he kept going and it was happening, and he got electrocuted anyway, so like, he, he didn’t have a chance.

Yeah. It was really a, it was a stupid ruse because even if he had bitten down as soon as he was told to and held it down the whole time, it wouldn’t have worked. He may have gotten all his fingers ripped off, but he certainly wouldn’t have had time to get outta that tub. 

Todd: Right. Well, maybe this was the.

The killer’s a rookie. I guess he didn’t, yeah, he didn’t, he didn’t calibrate things properly or something. But this is one of those cases where we see him in the trap. We hear the thing and then it cuts away. It’s like Maddeningly. Yes. 

Craig: This one. It cuts away. It does on this one, this one is bad because you do, you, you know, he’s dead before you actually see him get killed.

I don’t think that happens in the other ones. Um, but it does happen in this one. And I didn’t understand why they did it. Yes. It, it didn’t make sense. 

Todd: Well, for this director who has done, like others saw movies, this is totally against the whole formula. Like you wanna know if this guy’s gonna do it. You don’t start the trap and then cut away and show that he’s already dead.

And then later in some clunky flashback sequence showed what happened by then. We don’t care. We know. Oh, okay. Right. He, his fingers got ripped off and he got electrocuted, like boring. Right. But this was apparently one of the scenes where they had to trim. Because he said the director said, boy. And in the original scene as we did it, you saw every single finger pop and all this stuff and whatnot.

And I was thin here thinking like, after I read that, like I don’t even care cuz I didn’t need to see any of it. Cuz I already knew he was dead. There’s no tension. Why? You know? Yeah. What’s the 

Craig: point? Yeah, it was, it was really clunky. Uh, in the editing there, I just, I don’t get it. And uh, God. Oh, the 

Todd: next thing is really stupid though.

They begin to think that banks is responsible because he hated Finch. 

Craig: Uh, banks. Banks is Chris Rock. 

Todd: Okay. Right. Hey Chris Rock. Right. So then a box comes to the station and it’s got a pig puppet in it. And. It has a piece of his partner’s skin. Yeah. Skin’s. Skin. Skin. And when he flips it over, there’s tattoo on it.

Now his partner just hasn’t been around, I guess. Like I 

Craig: kind, he’s always been there. Like he’s been around. He just doesn’t do anything. Yeah. And the, it’s got, uh, a tattoo, Charlie, and, and they, they had made a whole big thing about how the new partner, God, what is his name? Shank. Shank. Oh, shank. You know, the first time they get into the car together, shank gets a, a picture of his family.

And it’s him and his wife and a kid, and he like puts it up in the visor. Like he just wants to have a picture of his family there. Okay, that makes sense. I assumed at that point, well, they’re setting it up for high stakes. Yeah. Because he’s got a, a wife and a baby at home and so he’s probably gonna be in peril or, or something.

And, and they talked about it again later. There’s a scene where, Shank calls him for some reason and the baby is crying and shanks like, oh yeah, I know it sounds terrible, but you know, we’re sleep training. He’ll cry himself to sleep or whatever. Oh yeah, yeah. But that’s it. Like he, otherwise he’s just kind of hanging around or, or not 

Todd: there at all.

Yeah, 

Craig: we’re not there at all. And then at this point, he gets the skin that says Charlie on it, and they get led by a clue to a butcher store that used to be like a hobby shop that Chris Rock’s dad took him to when he was a kid. Like, look, all of it is, 

Todd: this is the most convoluted bullshit you’ve 

Craig: ever seen in his life.

It is like it really is. 

Todd: He peels up the head of the doll and finds this little vial of paint with the name of the hobby shop, which. I really have a hard time believing that the killer would’ve known this little detail. Anyway, it’s so ridiculously it doesn’t really make sense. It doesn’t 

Craig: make sense, right?

It is. And and so it leads them to that place, and they find a skinned body, and they’re like, sometime around this time they start doing these weird shots of like Chris Rock, just screaming like it, it’ll just, it’ll just be a, a shot of his regular face and then it will. And then it’ll just be like a different cut of him, like screaming maniacally.

It’s trying 

Todd: to be like a nine inch nails video, but just 

Craig: kind of out of the blue, like he’s screaming in his head, but we can see it. It’s really weird. This is also the point where I had already figured it out, but at this point there’s just absolutely, it is so blatantly obvious Yeah. That the partner is the killer.

Yes. And this isn’t even the, the reason that it’s so blatantly obvious here is because they have made, like the deaths of the cops are the money shots of the movie. Yeah. Like the, the traps. Are the money shots. Yeah. And they don’t show us this guy get killed. They just show his skin and then they show this skinned body.

I’m like, 

Todd: they don’t even show this guy. Get ab supposedly abducted. You know, there’s 

Craig: nothing. It’s just like, if you don’t see them get killed on screen, they are not dead. Like that is just a rule. Mm. But the, the first time that I knew it was him when I was like, oh, it’s him was, they were sitting here on a table, like looking at evidence or, or clues or something, and the partner was like, Oh, I need to make a call.

Oh crap, my phone’s dead. Give me your phone. And Chris Rock like, makes a joke, but he hands him his phone and the guy walks out of the room with his phone. I’m like, oh, it’s him. Yeah. He totally did it there, there there’s no reason that he needed to take his phone and take it out of the room unless he was doing something shady.

I knew it from that point. Yeah. That it was him. And then, because I knew that it was him, when he made that call and the baby was crying in the background, I was like, there’s no baby I, unless I see a baby, there is no baby. And I’m telling my, in my head, I’m like, these are the things that are gonna pop up in that montage at the end to explain everything.

And they are, 

Todd: yes, yes, you were absolutely right. There was also a moment. When he said, oh, I’ve waited 12 years for this. And I was like, yes. Yeah, okay. I’ve waited 

Craig: 12 years for this. And there’s another moment where he said, said something about, oh yeah, your dad, uh, he’s, he’s the whole reason I’m doing this.

And I knew it. I’m like, wait a minute. What’s it was? So that’s way too obvious. So obvious. I didn’t even, like, I knew it was him. I didn’t know what his motive was. And I don’t know, it’s not too hard to figure out. He keeps killing all these corrupt cops. Yeah. So there’s obviously something going on there.

Ultimately it makes sense. But, uh, real quick, the last person to get killed is the hot captain. Which I didn’t see coming. Hey. And she gets water boarded with hot wax and uh, 

Todd: this trap didn’t even make sense to me. So she gets water boarded with hot wax and, but she has to sever her spinal cord on a blade to stop it from flowing from a pipe onto her face.

So I didn’t understand that either. And usually these traps, there’s like a mechanical thing, right? You gotta do this thing, which is gonna pull this lever or gonna yank this cord or gonna cut this thing or whatever. And that’s gonna stop the trap. I could not see how physically her. You know, backing her neck over this blade was gonna do anything to stop the wax and it shows you close up the trap, the blade, her neck, all that stuff.

I don’t know, at this point I was also thinking, I was sort of thinking it was like a, I don’t remember if it was a second one or the third one where, again, spoiler alert, but part of the plot is that the traps are not actually meant to be, they’re rigged so that even if you do the thing they say, you’re still gonna die.

Mm-hmm. I, I even felt like, oh, well maybe this is one of those cases because the couple, the last three traps that we’ve seen in this movie, I couldn’t think that, you know, like you just said, there’s no time. It just didn’t seem to work. You know, I thought maybe that was a thing. It’s not. But, uh, that’s how bad these are.

Uh, it. It’s just so not in keeping with the soft franchise, that it’s just mind blowing that the same people participated in it. Mm-hmm. Anyway. 

Craig: Yeah. Well, I mean, and that it’s gross. It’s gross to watch her get water boarded with rock wax and then to see Chris Rock run in, um, they know that she’s in trouble.

Like he got sent kind of on a wild goose chase and he figures out that he had gotten sent on a wild goose chase. And so they know that she’s in trouble and are not in a big hurry. Like that drove me crazy. Yeah. Like he and some other chicky cop were like upstairs and they realized that she’s just in the basement, in the precinct, and so they just kind of jogged down there.

Like they don’t seem to be, I, I really thought if they had just picked up the pace a little bit, they might have saved her, but, um Right, right. Yeah. But, uh, instead he just goes down there and peels the wax off and takes off part of her face with it, which looked really gross. But yeah, it was, uh, I just, I don’t know.

Todd: So then, He gets another lead. Right. I can’t remember what it is. Well, his dad has been 

Craig: missing this whole time, like Right. They were, they were, they, you know, we’ve, we’ve, we established that they have a strained relationship. Um, we see more of that in the flashbacks. Like, I think his dad’s pissed off at him for turning in a corrupt cop without consulting him first or something.

And then his dad has just been missing this whole time. Yeah. And he gets some sort of clue. I don’t know. I hardly took any, uh, any notes here. But we see, okay. 

Todd: He gets captured. He wakes up at a warehouse and he’s handcuffed to a pipe, just like the first movie, and there’s a hacksaw. And so he goes and he grabs it and he, you know, starts to try to hack, saw through his, uh, his, his cuffs.

Caesar is not gonna work, and we’re all thinking the same thing. Yeah. But then he, he sees a bobby pin a little ways away as well, so he, he just kinda like uses the saw to pull it towards him. So that he could pick the lock. And I was like, is this supposed to be funny? Is this like a joke for us? Or like a nod to, I think it was the previous movie because it just, it’s just kind of thrown in there.

Yeah. Think it was, doesn’t really play like, uh, okay. All right. So I think I 

Craig: read somewhere even that, uh, one of the things that Chris Rock was thinking about when he was thinking, what would it be like he was trying to picture himself in that position, like a movie where I, Chris Rock, am chained to a, with a, with a hacks on what does that look like?

Um, but he finds a bobby pin. Sure. I I, I don’t know if that was some kind of test, you know, like Right. Like why would that be if he’s clever enough, if he looks closely enough, he’ll find this bobby pin and he’ll be able to get out, whatever. Uh, yeah. And so he gets himself out and then he finds. His ex-partner who he’s talked to since, oh, like there was a whole, there was a whole scene where he went back and talked to his ex-partner, the one that he had turned in.

It was 

Todd: like a counselor or 

Craig: something for, yeah, he’s rehabilitated himself. He like runs an AA group or something. He’s still bitter. 

Todd: Oh, by the way, he talks about. Article eight. There’s this mention, I think he’s the first person who mentions Article eight. Yeah, article eight, blah blah, blah, you know? Yeah.

You Dylan started that. Yeah. We were working under Article A and well, we, back then we were working under Article eight, so a lot of bad shit went down. I don’t think by the end of the movie, any of us ever know what Article eight was. I couldn’t remember if it 

Craig: was a real thing. I don’t think. No, no. I was think, I was thinking, I don’t even know where this takes place.

Do they ever make mention of, I mean, it’s just urban, like, I don’t know. Yeah, 

Todd: I don’t think it 

Craig: was a particular type. I was thinking like, you know, corrupt cops and stuff. I was thinking, uh, like stop and frisk and stuff, but I think that this is just, um, I don’t know, whatever. This is a stand-in thing. Yeah.

Yeah. He, uh, he mentions it and then, uh, he tries to get this guy down. I didn’t even understand what this was like. He’s set up in front of some thing where there’s a convey, 

Todd: no, I knew what this was. What is it? Because I was on the city council, we used to have one of these, it was a glass crushing machine.

You know what, like recycling glass and things like that. You grind the glass down into tiny little pieces that you can use it like in gravel and like to kind of as a bed for roads and stuff. Why 

Craig: does it shoot shards of glass out like a cannon? That just doesn’t seem, why is it all, 

Todd: I guess it had been like, you know, modified or something, or something put behind.

Craig: Yeah. I, I couldn’t see a logical, like, I could understand the grinding process, but like, just dump the shards onto the ground. Don’t project them out of a giant cannon. Yeah, 

Todd: it was, it didn’t even make sense in the movie because in the movie, like when you see there’s like a, there’s like a conveyor belt that’s continuously going of bottles that are set up, you know, that drop into this thing and that shoot out at him.

Yet when, when you see like it in practice it’s like it shoots a bunch and then stops, and then shoots a bunch and then stops and then shoots a bunch. It’s like, it’s almost like there’s a rhythm to it. But actually like visually you can see there’s. There’s not a gap between the bottles, it’s just a bunch of bottles.

So I didn’t get this at all. Uh, it was dumb. Yeah, 

Craig: whatever. It doesn’t matter. He like, I think he figures out how to get him down, but it’s too late. And then another door opens and he walks in there and his dad has strung up like a marionette. And I don’t understand this either. Like, no, he, he’s, he, he’s got like spikes through him or something that are draining blood into all these jars all around.

Now this, it does look like a saw trap. Um, and the way it’s lit and the way that it’s constructed, it’s very spooky and it looks very much like a, I don’t know what I’m trying to get at. Like, it, it lives up to the franchise. It looks really good. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s needles in his arm and at the end of each needle it’s, you know, it’s like the needle.

You might get to draw blood at the Red Cross or something. It goes into tubes, but instead of the tubes leading to a blood bag, it just, it just goes down. So it’s like one in each arm and one in each leg. And it goes down to a, a jar down below where it’s dripping the blood. And you can see that these jars are at least halfway full of blood.

Craig: Yeah. Which is dumb. Oh, so what’s his name reveals himself. Um, s Shank reveals himself. He’s not really dead, which you could see coming 10 miles away. But he explains himself. Turns out he was that kid. He was the kid of the guy who got shot. Now, when you were explaining that flashback, I think that we see that flashback like two or three times.

Mm-hmm. But every time we see it, we get more information. I don’t think we get. That the kid was a witness to that until now. We’ve seen the guy get shot at least twice, but I think this is the first time that we see that a kid was right behind him watching and that Chris Rock acknowledged that. Well, anyway, shank is that kid.

He’s been planning this forever. And what his end game is, is he wants Chris Rock to be his partner and uh, Chris Rock will be the inside guy and they’ll get the dirty on dirty cops and kill them. And, and Chris Rock is like, what? 

Todd: You want me to kill cops? He’s like, no, just the dirty ones. Just no, just the bad 

Craig: ones.

Um, okay. And, but he’s gotta like, make a decision. Like he can either shoot the partner Shank or he’s only got one bullet in his gun. He can shoot Shank or he can shoot this target, which will drop his dad and, and save 

Todd: his hat. All right. Let me, let me just talk about how dumb this is. First of all, why would he not save his dad?

Of course, he would save his dad. He’s not gonna shoot this partner and let his dad die, okay? Unless he’s afraid the partner’s gonna do something. But the partner said, oh, yeah, you got this choice. I’m gonna let you make a choice. So, you know, in keeping with the saw, he’s got a choice. All right. Number two, he shoots, he shoots that target, which drops his dad to the ground, which then he runs up to him.

Uh, by the way, by the way, oh, you forgot to mention that. Cops. Yeah. This guy calls the cops. He says, oh, there’s a, there’s a crazy guy. He calls the cops on the phone. He says, nine one one. There’s this crazy guy over at the warehouse. He’s shooting people. He shoots like a, a few bullets off of his gut, so they come down here quick.

All right. Now the SWAT team’s on their way. Really, 

Craig: we have exactly four minutes in 

Todd: exactly four minutes. You know this and you’ve timed all this Uhhuh. He, he also says, oh, do you know that the human body has 1.5 gallons of blood in there? Your dad’s not gonna last very long. He’s like, the SWAT team might get here, but not in time to save your dad.

Really? How did you time all this out so perfectly, right? Uhhuh, that your dad would be drained of just enough blood and then you call the SWAT team, you have no when they’re going to arrive, so I’m sure he, he’s got some leeway here. It would probably o be okay. Number two, you could just go up to your dad hanging there from a marionette and pull all of those tubes out of his arms and legs, which are hanging right there within arm’s reach, if that is all that is required to save your dad, right?

Which that is sort of what the movie implies. This dad falls to the ground, he pulls out. We only see him pull one out, but I guess we assume he pulls all of the rest of them out as well. And that’s supposed to stop the bleeding. No, his dad, you would need to like put some pressure on all of those wounds to stop the blood from Floyd.

Like none of this shit makes sense. So that was irritating. Or 

Craig: shoot the bad guy and then throw the gun at the target. Like Yeah, surely, surely there’s something else you could get that target with. There’s, oh, that’s the stupidest thing. It is silly. And then so like he shoots the target, the dad falls down, then he, I guess, is trying to get shank.

Meanwhile the cops are cutting through this heavy steel door and when they cut through it, they also cut through a trip wire that pulls the dad back up and magically from somewhere. A rifle appears in his arm, and as the police come in, the marionette machine pulls up the dad’s arm. So it looks like he’s pointing a shotgun at the police.

And the police shoot him a bazillion times. And we, while this is happening, we see Shank in an elevator in the background, and Chris Rock is looking at his ad, and then he turns and looks over his shoulder and sees the elevator door closing on Shank. And he goes, no.

And that’s the end of the movie.

Todd: And Shank does the same sh, you know, motion that Chris Rock and the flashback did to him as a kid. Right, right. To keep him hidden, which. Also doesn’t make logical sense. Like that’s supposed to be ironic except like Chris Rock was actually helping the kid at that moment. Like Chris Rock was helping the kid, helping his dad.

Why in the world sh wouldn’t somebody have kept track of this kid? Like none of that shit makes sense. Right? If there was a kid at the scene of the crime or the kid who was right, none of that. Okay. So anyway, let. All that. Everything else is just 

Craig: silly. It is, it’s really stupid. We, we forgot to mention too, that the, that, um, shank, the, the villain is mad at Samuel L.

Jackson because he ran the, like he was captain of the police force and was very much aware of the corruption and supported it and hid it and all that kind of stuff. So he was corrupt too. We, we left that part out, but, um, I don’t know. Ultimately it was just really stupid. It is so dumb. 

Todd: I, 

Craig: but I think the reason, I think that’s why I liked it, I think because it was so stupid.

I was really amused. I was really amused by it. Oh, 

Todd: I was flabbergasted at the movie. So I, I would say my first time through, I just could not believe how bad it was. So in that, in that sense, yeah, it was pretty amused. I just couldn’t believe that this thing got released as it was. I honestly cannot remember the last mainstream.

Hollywood movie, let alone with big stars in it that I’ve ever seen where I just was everyone out to lunch. What was going on here? I mean, I’ve seen some stupid movies, but I have always figured, well, I could see where they thought this was gonna work. It just didn’t play. Yeah. They’re movies that just don’t work.

You know? Cutthroat Island didn’t work, but yeah. You know, you wouldn’t not necessarily watch that and pinpoint this and be like, this is like really fucking stupid. This is ridiculous. This is like, you know, like, but this movie has got all of that, like just the first cut of this should have just set huge alarm bells.

Like, we can’t release this. And they did, and, and let alone, oh, it’s just a van. It must have just been a vanity project for Chris Rock. And nobody had the guts to, you know, say, oh, I guess, dude, I guess you can’t act. And all, all this is really dumb and con of eluded. I, I appreciate what he was trying to do.

I actually really like, you know, kind of on the, kind of, in the sort of tales from the hood arena. I like the idea of taking this sort of very modern problem that we have of corrupt police and, and kind of shining some light on it. I think the irony of his father raising the gun at them and them shooting without just because, you know, they felt threatened and all that.

I mean, I think, I think the idea of it as, as pitched would be great, but the execution just, 

Craig: yeah, I, I, I agree with you for it. Just, it really doesn’t work. I, I do, again, wanna say I really am a big fan of Chris Rock. I think he’s hilarious and he’s funny in this movie. It’s just like, why I, I, I almost feel kinda like he was going for a lethal weapon vibe.

Like, this is a serious cop movie, but we’re funny. Uh, and I don’t it times think, I don’t think other people got the memo. Like he’s, he’s in that, he’s in that movie by himself and everybody else is trying to make an episode of Criminal Minds. And, 

Todd: uh, Chris Rock and the director kept going back and forth and their whole like, sort of, Catchphrase.

What’s it? This is, this was seven mixed with 48 

Craig: hours. Okay. Right. And I can see that. I can see, you know, the Eddie Murphy vibe. I get it. It doesn’t work. 

Todd: No, this didn’t work. The bottom line. Well, they’re gonna be making a, a, a tent saw movie. Yeah. I, 

Craig: I lost track, so I have no idea. I don’t even know which ones I’ve seen and which ones I haven’t.

It’s 

Todd: still gonna happen even though this one was not critically received Well, I don’t know if it’s necessarily gonna have Chris Rock and it probably 

Craig: won’t. No, no. This I think was standalone. Um, in fact, I read that the, the director and the guy, uh, max Menella, who played Shank, they talked about potential stories that could continue this, but I don’t think that a sequel was ever really in consideration.

And we, I think we’ve seen the last of Chris Rock in this, in this world. 

Todd: I feel so bad. Oh, poor guy. 

Craig: He can go cry into his mountains of money. He’s fine. 

Todd: He okay. You still made money from this. Who cares, right? Yeah. I wish my failures could be so successful 

Craig: and whatever, you know, like he loved these movies and he wanted to be one and he had the whatever, the gra toss to make that happen.

Whatever. Good for you. Yeah. Hope he had fun. 

Todd: Yeah. I mean, look, to be fair, it has gotta be pretty easy when you’re ha actor to make things like this happen. Who knows? But good for him. Yeah, good for him. Will, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share this with a friend.

Let us know what you thought of this movie and this episode by finding us online. Just Google two Guys on Chainsaw podcast and you can find our Facebook page, our Twitter feed, Instagram, just to leave us a message anywhere there. And please share this with a friend. And if you are so motivated and enjoy this show, please write a review on any one of the platforms that you listen to, podcasts, uh, that is the one of the best ways you can support us.

If you want to go even further than that, find our Patreon page at patreon.com/chainsaw podcast for the very, very low price of $5 to $10 a month you can enjoy. Uh, first looks at our podcast, you can hear our complete unedited versions of our phone calls that we use to put these together, as well as a bunch of other goodies and some minisodes as well that we release a couple times a month.

Until next time. I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw

Join us for our very first Indonesian horror film, a remake of the original 1976 Satan’s Slaves by prolific Indonesian horror director Joko Anwar. Todd gives his review from Jakarta, which also explains the delay in getting this latest episode out. Thanks for your patience, and enjoy!

Satan’s Slaves (2017)

Episode 343, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Today I am coming to you from Jakarta. I am in, uh, taking a little trip to Indonesia and, uh, I’m in the hotel room right now and much like how when you went to Vegas, you were in the mode for a Vegas horror movie, Uhhuh Craig and I have been talking about doing this Indonesian horror movie for a little while, but, and it just seemed appropriate to delay it until I could give you the Indonesian perspective.

Yep. Well, at least, yeah.

Craig: But you’ve been there, what, just for a couple days, right?

Todd: Yeah, I’ve only been here since, uh, whoa. 1, 2, 3, 4. This is my fifth and final day here. Oh, yeah. I’m gonna actually be moving on to Japan after this, so I don’t know if you want next week we could do a Japanese horror movie.

Craig: maybe, but, uh, I’m curious. I don’t, I know. As close to nothing about Indonesia as a person can know. So, oh yeah. What, what are, what’s your, what are your 

Todd: thoughts? Uh, Jakarta as a city is probably one of the last places people actually go to when they go to Indonesia. I’m here visiting a friend and her family, but, um, Actually, uh, Indonesia, believe it or not, I think it’s the third most populous country in the world.

Okay? It is full of people, but you know, it’s not like you can tell, you know, it just looks like a big city here in Jakarta. In fact, the traffic’s not that bad. It’s a very modern city here, and, uh, it’s extremely hot. And, uh, humid. And so it seems to be, as my friend described it to me, mostly shopping malls.

Okay. You go, go from one shopping mall to the other stand, the air conditioning, you know, Um, there’s outdoor food places that are kind of fun to go to, but most people when they come to Indonesia, they’ll go to like Bali, which is a more resort area. I think it’s a very popular place for my Chinese friends and my expat friends in China to go to on vacation.

Australians, uh, because of it’s proximity often come up to Bali for vacation. It it pretty much all over Asia. Bali is seen as sort of like the Hawaii. You know, the place you go to. Sure, sure. Um, and it’s an interesting country. Like right now Ramadan is happening. Uhhuh Indonesia has sort of historically been, well they were originally colonized by the Dutch, now they’re not anymore, obviously.

And, uh, it’s, it’s a, it’s quite a mix of Muslim Hindu Christian population. Interesting. Quite a few Chinese who came over as a refugees from some of the persecution that the Chinese, um, had undergone in different parts of Asia. And so, yeah, it’s quite a mix, actually. Quite a, quite a cultural mix and, uh, quite a religious mix.

And like I said, because Ramadan’s going on right now, like places are closed. Oh yeah. Um, that started what, like two days ago. Restaurants and things are still open. Saw a movie, saw the Mario movie yesterday. It’s a big treat for me to, you know, living in China to get to the cinema and actually see something because so few Sure.

Western movies come through there nowadays. But, yeah. Um, when my friend, uh, I have a dear friend who’s Indonesian, and when she learned that I had this, uh, horror podcast, uh, she said, oh my gosh. She said, Indonesia, Makes amazing horror movies. You know, I’ve read 

Craig: that now. I didn’t know that. I didn’t, uh, I don’t think we’ve ever done an Indonesian 

Todd: movie before.

This is the first one I think, you know, they get overshadowed by the, the K Horror and the J Horror. Yeah. You know, it comes to Asia. Indonesia apparently has this very long history of horror movies and quite scary. That’s what I hear. Very superstitious people as she tells me. Uh, you know, everybody’s, uh, kind of seems to believe in ghosts.

And a lot of the Indonesian horror movies are, are ghost stories. They have lots of different legends of particular ghosts and urban legends and these kinds of things, and so, This movie, she said, is very much in the wheelhouse of a typical Indonesian horror. What we’re doing is 2000 seventeens Satan’s Slaves, which is a remake of a, um, 1980s, uh, horror movie.

I was really toying between doing the original, but I thought it might be a little more interesting to kick off with this one since it was a little more modern. Yeah, I was looking at some clips or I saw a trailer for the original. It did actually look pretty freaky. This, 

Craig: this is a remake, but like also a remake slash prequel.

Yeah, right, because since this movie was made, they have made a sequel and what I read is that there’s another one planned, I think, but that they are all. Supposed to be tied together. Yes. Like I think ultimately the original movie is supposed to be the last movie. In the sequentially. 

Todd: Yeah, they all focus around this particular house, I guess.

But yeah, the director, Joko Anwar is about our age. He’s grew up watching horror and wanting to do genre films. And the success of this one, which was one of his first in the horror genre anyway, really kind of cemented his resolve and his success in order to make, to go on and make several others. And, uh, he’s, he’s pretty active in, in working right now.

I think one of the. Big faces of Indonesian horror. And I guess it also kind of kicked off a kind of a remake thing, like, uh, after he remade this, a whole bunch of other older Indonesian horror movies, uh, were getting remade, not just by him, but by other directors here. So there’s like a little trend for a while.

I love 

Craig: stories like this. Like he loved this movie when he was a kid and it had always kind of been his dream to remake it. And what I read was that, uh, it was already in the works, like some studio or something already. Was planning a remake, but somehow he weezled his way in and he got his hands on it and he got to remake it.

It’s cool. I love stories like that. 

Todd: Apparently, like he snuck into a movie theater to watch it when he was a kid. That’s how special the movie is to it. Yeah, it’s a cool story, right? It is a cool story. The movie itself was giving me a bit of the conjuring vibes, especially originally. I don’t know why it, it’s also kind of like your typical Honda House ghost story.

Yeah. Um, kind of a mix actually. It, it, I thought this would be very Jay Horror, you know, or something like that. I don’t know why. I just kind of tend to figure that, you know, the Asian cultures have these sort of similar ideas of what ghosts are and what they would be from. But it, this was a bit different.

I actually got to watch this movie with her, so she was, um, telling me different, um, Different things that I, I wouldn’t have been aware of otherwise culturally, so I’ll be able to kind of, well, I’m fascinated 

Craig: by that because it really is a very kind of typical haunted house story. There are elements of like Rosemary’s Baby mm-hmm.

Or any other satanic cult type. Movie, but there were, I think, the thing that I was most interested about. And so I’m really excited to talk to you about it. Cause maybe you can shed some light, um, are the specifically Indonesian elements of it, because in the end of the movie, I’m not spoiling anything.

It’s a ghost story folks. Yeah. But in the end of the movie, there are like these. Oh, entities. I don’t know. Um, I, I, had I not been listening to the dialogue, would’ve probably thought that they were meant to be zombies, but I actually looked up what they are and they are a specific type of ghost that’s specific to the, that culture, which I would’ve never known.

Did you all talk 

Todd: about that at all? Uh, we did a little bit. I mean, she’s told me about like just in ghosts in Indonesia in general. And, and um, she said, you know, a lot of people here do believe in ghosts. Um, and they believe that. There’s this particular like the scariest one, sort of like the laona of Indonesia, where Uhhuh is a woman who is dressed in white and has this long black hair and all that.

And if you see her and if she sees that you see her, you’re pretty much gone. And I’ve seen like prank videos that, that are on like YouTube and stuff where people have like dressed up like her and like just been up in a tree while somebody’s walking down the road and. Waiting for, you know, makes a little noise.

There’s kind of like a screeching noise, and then when they look up and see her, like if people like flipped out, it’s kind of, it’s cruel and funny at the same time. Yeah, we, I, I don’t know all the, you probably, you might even know a little more of the details though than I do, so it’ll be kind of good for.

For you to tell me, cuz I didn’t actually look that up. No, I don’t know. 

I 

Craig: was just like, I just Googled What are the zombies and Satan slaves? I, I don’t know. I just, I remember they had a name I wanted to say it started with an N and I looked it up at the time. But you know, in, in all honesty, I watched this movie a few days ago, so, uh, I don’t remember exactly.

Maybe, maybe I’ll figure it out before we’re done. But I had actually heard of this movie before because Shutter pushed it. Pretty heavy. I think that they got the exclusive rights to it. So they will claim it as a shutter original or a shutter exclusive. I think they just got the rights to it. But, um, there is a sequel and Shutter may have actually been involved in the production of that one.

I don’t know. They’re both shutter exclusives, but when the sequel came out, they pushed them both pretty hard, so I had heard of them, but I have to be in a pretty specific mood to watch a foreign film. Uh, I do, but, uh, I have to be in a particular mood. So I hadn’t watched this yet, but I’m glad now to have seen it.

I liked it. I, I will say that I think that it was a pretty traditional ghost story. Uh, I definitely see why you would compare it to the Conjuring. It also, um, centers around a family, so. Like the conjuring it. It also reminded me a little bit of Insidious. Yeah, even Poltergeist, because you’ve got this tight family element.

In fact, it reminded me very much of Poltergeist because at one point in the movie, somebody who is advising this family, who has been being plagued, being haunted by these ghosts, somebody tells them they’re gonna try to split you up. Your strength is in your unity. You have to stay together, and that’s an essential.

Elements of 

Todd: Poltergeist too. Yes, that’s right. So it reminded 

Craig: me of those things. I’m, I’m a little bit nervous to talk about it because my ultimate judgment is, I think this is a good movie. Did I love it? Huh? Like I, I thought it was fine and I think that it’s well made and it’s a good ghost story. There was nothing particular about it that made me say, oh wow, this is fantastic.

But that could also be. A cultural 

Todd: thing, I don’t know. So, well, I think that, um, for me, I had a similar feeling I was really into it for the, for, although it felt, I mean, I ha I even hesitate to say it felt like I’d seen this before because like pretty much all the horror movies I see, I feel like I’ve seen before.

Right, right. Like, you know, there has not been much novel. I mean, you know, it’s just, there’re mostly ghost stories and, and this, especially like you said, mine’s very similar territory to, um, Western films. We’ve seen possession films kind of across cultures all kind of end up. You know, in a similar way, I found it very spooky.

I found it very creepy and scary. Um, there are quite a few jump scares in there. And then about three quarters of the way through, I felt like it kind of went off the rails. I felt like the story was going in a particular direction and then for almost no particular reason other than, I don’t know, the desire to throw in a twist.

It just, there’s a twist that just kind of comes outta left field. And it’s not like a Ooh. Wow, that’s amazing. Well, anyway, we’ll talk about it when we get there, but I, I, I’ll needless to say, I was just a little more disappointed in the last, like, 20 minutes of the movie than I was with the first, you know, hour and 20 minutes.

So 

Craig: Cool. Yeah. We, we can talk about it as we go, as we go. I don’t know how you wanna approach it because the, the story is really, Pretty simple, 

Todd: right? Yeah, I, it’s, um, it’s also period, which I kind of liked. It was cool that it starts out in the 1981, I thought, I don’t think 

Craig: that I would’ve even noticed that if I hadn’t known going in that it was set in the eighties.

Well, it, and a, again, you know, we’re talking about a different country, so I know very much with the eighties, like in America, but I don’t have any idea what they were like in Indonesia. Yeah, there is, uh, less technology. Uh, technology doesn’t really play much of a role in the movie at all. No cell phones, anything like that, right?

So people are potentially more isolated and these people are more isolated, um, because this house that they live in is kind of out in the country, 

Todd: right? Yeah. It’s this huge a-frame house. I’m God, even looking at the house from the outside, I was like, this is almost like an Indonesian amityville, right.

Look to it. Uh, but yeah, it’s kind of a house a bit out in, in the rural area. O obviously like here in Jakarta, everything looks modern and, and, uh, and new. There’s sections of town that are, you know, obviously a little older and whatnot, but, Generally speaking, I even thought it was pretty handy for him to set this out in a rural area because then you have less work to do.

You know, to try to, yeah, to try to, you know, get the, the older cars and things in there. I even read that they had to search quite a bit to find, um, yes. Some of the months I think what, for the city scenes, like the scenes where they go to some older, some apartments in the city, I think. Yeah. Oh, okay.

Craig: That’s true. I, they also, uh, had to search for this. House location. Yes. I think that they, they wanted to use the original house from the original movie, which apparently is still. Standing, I guess. Oh, wow. Um, but, but the owner wouldn’t let them, so they had to find, they had to find another place. But, eh, I don’t know.

I don’t even know that I would, all I can say about the setting is that the house is, you know, it, it’s appropriately spooky as it should be, but kind of as all Ghost story movie houses are like, I kept wanting them to turn the lights on, like just turn on the lights. All right. And, and it also, it’s a really dark movie now.

I had to watch it on my phone, which sucks. So it was especially dark for me. But it is a dark movie in a lot of it, so, you know, it’s a atmospherically good in that way. It’s also conveniently, Directly adjacent to a cemetery. Right. 

Todd: Go figure. Right, like the house has a cemetery on its grounds. Yeah. Out in, out of the forest.

Out in the woods. Out of the jungle, I suppose you could say. Yeah. It’s pretty funny. It’s a, it’s a fine and upsetting for it, like you said, isolated. It really helps, especially later in the movie that it’s next to a cemetery. Right. 

Craig: But there’s a little bit like, there’s a little bit of supernatural exposition, I guess.

Like when it opens up, like over the credits. By the way, I watched the Dub version. Did you watch the dubbed or did you read the uh, 

Todd: subtitle? I read the subtitles. Yeah. That’s just my speed. I will. Good. 

Craig: We could, I know. I used to be that way too. I just have gotten old and lazy. It’s fine. And, and to be fair, the dubbing on this is just okay.

Totally. It’s just okay. But, uh, it starts out, you hear a woman’s voice chanting what translates to charms of the king and queen. Come to me, send the children, and just chanting that over and over again. But then the exposition is, Sets this up as though it is a family drama. Yes, it’s about this. Um, I don’t know what class they would fall into because the mother had been a famous singer.

She has been ill for over three years and the first scene we see is her oldest daughter Reini. Talking to, I don’t know, an executive, I, I suppose, um, about royalties. And the executive tells her that there are no more royalties. And the daughter’s like, I don’t get it. I hear her songs on the radio. Her al, I see her albums in the stores.

How can there be no royalties? And he, he’s like, well, There just aren’t. And that made me really mad. I was like, this guy is lying to you. He’s totally 

Todd: lying. 

Craig: So regardless of how her mother’s fame may have allowed them to live at some point, they’re not wealthy now and they’re struggling to just get by.

Mm-hmm. And it’s her, her dad, her mom, who is bedridden. Um, and she has three brothers, three younger brothers. Uh, there’s Tony. Who is the next after her, and then Bondi and then Ian, who is deaf and speaks in sign 

Todd: language and he’s like, uh, six or five years old. I think six. 

Craig: He’s six because he’s turning 

Todd: seven.

Yes, that’s right. That’s right. And their grandmother, her dad lives with them as well, obviously. And then their grandmother is in a wheelchair and she doesn’t, uh, speak much 

Craig: at all. Not much. Right. But that’s, that’s fairly typical in many places other than. America that, 

Todd: uh, yeah, everyone lives together.

Grand grandparents, 

Craig: right? Everybody lives together. Mm-hmm. And so there, so we’ve got this, you know, established that they are in trouble, they are in, uh, financial trouble. And you know, the dad says he’s gonna go off to try to earn some money in this. City, the oldest brother, like sells his motorbike. Um, and they’re, they’re also kind of, you know, caring for their mother.

Tony seems to have particular bond with her. He like combs her hair at night, but then weird stuff starts happening like, yeah, Rey finds mama out of bed, but it’s not really her. And I think that was a dream. But then the same exact thing that just happened. Repeats. Yeah. But then it is Mama and she drops dead.

Todd: This was explained to me too. Well, there’s like a series of things that happens. Um, and, and I thought actually the movie did a, this fantastic job of jumping you right into this family in its play. Yes. Like everything Yes. Paced really well. Yeah. Like, uh, 10 minutes in and you’ve already five minutes in Really.

And you really understand exactly what’s happening. Like you said, yes, their house is mortgage, their savings are gone. Dad’s going away to get some money, but I’m not exactly sure how 

Craig: I assumed he would be working, but that was an 

Todd: assumption. Yeah, it was some little project and then, and then I think also right away, as soon as she kind of comes home and goes upstairs to see her mom in bed, there’s some spooky camera angles and the camera work here is very unsettling.

I thought that was. A little unique to this movie. I mean, don’t get me wrong, horror movies have got some creepy camera work. Sure. But the way that this camera, when things get intense, it kind of, it floats and it can to levers. Slightly, and it does this in just this noticeably disturbing way. I thought that was very effective.

And before anything creepy is even going on, we’re getting this as she goes upstairs to see her mom for the first time. Ex, 

Craig: explain what that means to me. Like I’m stupid. Oh, can’t 

Todd: ever mean, well, like the camera is sort of handheld at this point, but not bouncy, jumpy, handheld, you know, like documentary style, but very smooth, steady cam style.

But the movement. Is a little more like deliberate and slow and as it moves the camera tips so that it’s no longer horizontal, so that, you know, ah, okay, it’s tipping kind of sideways a little bit, uh, in either direction. And just the way that it did that I thought was, um, it triggered me a little bit, I don’t know, you know, just kind of like psychologically.

And, and there were several times in this movie where the camera just starts at that horizontal position. And then sudden and then slowly can’t to levers for no good reason at all. And it’s creepy. I it’s, it’s a bit of a Sam Ramey trick, honestly, you know? Yeah. He likes to do this thing a lot and I felt like there was quite a bit of inspiration from Sam Ramey going on in some of the cinematography here.

Craig: I can see that. Well, that’s, that’s why out of the gate, I said, I think it’s a good movie. I think that it’s skillfully made. Mm-hmm. Um, I, the, the cinematography looks good. It, it is dark in places, but, um, it does look really good. And I think that the acting is. Great. I was totally in this. I thought everybody was really good, especially when you’re working with, um, kids.

Now, to be fair, the youngest boy doesn’t have a whole lot to do, but they’re young actors. Yeah. Uh, and it’s good. And I, and I was invested. Uh, in their story, I felt for them, and I was, I was curious as to what was going on and why, and I feel like the movie adequately describes that or explains that. Yeah.

But it’s, it’s suspenseful and well-paced. You don’t, you don’t get a l. Third act, exposition, dump. Yes. You learn things as you go. And, uh, it’s, it’s interesting and suspense and like you 

Todd: said earlier, you know, it’s, it’s very much plays like a family drama at first, you know, it’s this family that’s just dealing with this very sick mother and they’ve got money problems and, uh, Throughout that very naturally we get a great exposition or we just get to l I mean, through the actions of what’s going on, we really get to learn about this family and their family dynamic.

And they just come across really, you know, relatable and understandable, and we see how everybody relates to each other and what role everyone has. Like it’s really smooth. And, and we don’t often get that, honestly, good character development in horror movies. And, uh, and we, that’s true. We do here. So it’s, it’s quite nice.

But it’s like you said, it’s like a bunch of scary freaky things that are happening before, before mom spooky 

Craig: dies. Spooky, spooky stuff. 

Todd: Yeah. Like her, her mom rings a bell right when she needs something, right? Because she’s not talking. She looks, you know, almost like she’s starving and, uh, looks kind of freaky.

Anyway, she’s just pale and she’s very thin and right sunken 

Craig: eyes. They never say at least. That I recall. What is wrong with her? She’s just very, very ill, right? And, and then she dies. Now of course, we come to find out that there potentially could be supernatural reasons that she’s ill or maybe, you know, I don’t know when to reveal what, but, but there is.

Outside stuff going on. There is weird stuff going on, and like you said, spooky stuff like ghostly figures lingering in the background. Lots of suspense shots where the camera will pan across somebody’s face in closeup, but then as it pans, you see in soft focus in the back. A creepy figure lingering.

Yeah. Yeah. That happens. Then they will turn around and it won’t be there anymore, but then maybe they’ll turn around and it will be there like, yeah. Typical stuff. It’s classic, it’s it’s typical haunted ghost stuff, but done well and it 

Todd: is spooky. Well, I, I think one of the scariest moments, of course she’s got this bell, so it’s established that she rings this bell and, and so, you know, it goes upstairs at one point, I think the very first time we’re introduced to her, rainy goes up and sits down on her bed, but her mom is like ringing this bell frantically and she’s staring up at sort of at the ceiling or maybe out the window, but it looks almost like up at the ceiling and.

Rainy kind of looks up and she’s a little freaked out by, you know, the intensity by which her mom seems to see something. And then like Tony goes up to comb her mom’s hair, which, which she’s losing. The window blows open. And when he goes to close the window and turns around, she’s looking at her weird.

And then, you know, one of the scariest moments I think in this, in this sequence is it’s night and rainy wakes up, is walking through the house, sees her dad’s sleeping on the sofa, she goes upstairs. Again, very unsettling camera angles. And sh from behind. You know, she sees her mom standing, looking out the window again, like this classic setup.

As she’s approaching her mom, you’re thinking, okay, like, is that really her mom? What’s gonna happen when she turns around and sees her face? She touches her shoulder. But then she hears the bell ringing, and when she turns around, she sees her mom is laying in bed, ringing the bell, frantically, uhhuh. And then this figure slowly turned sideways and it appears to be her mom, like a younger.

Healthier version of her mom, but she’s got this really evil grin on her face. And then when she wakes up again, boom. It’s like the same scenario. She wakes up, she hears the bell ringing, she walks through, she sees her dad. My friend explained this to me, said that this is actually kind of like one of these Indonesian beliefs, like if you dream something and then, and then we wake up during the day and.

The same thing as experience, that there’s a ghost involved. Ah, 

Craig: interesting. Yeah, cuz it, it, it happens at least a couple of times. Mm-hmm. The best jump scare for me was we, you had mentioned, or I did, I don’t remember. Uh, Tony, the oldest son, would comb his mother’s hair like that. Was like their bonding thing or whatever.

Um, and after she passes away, he wakes up in the night and thinks that he hears her ringing, he rolls over in bed or something, and he hears really, really loud. Tony comb my hair. Yes. Oh God. And, and it may, this is one of the only benefits of having to watch it on my phone was because I had my earbuds in so, I could tell that the sound mix was great here because that line came through so loudly from behind my right side.

It sounded like somebody was behind me and I, and I did jump a, again, I mean, little things like that, technical things really can make. A big difference. Mm-hmm. And had I not had my earbuds in, maybe I wouldn’t have noticed unless I had been in a good theater, you know, with a, with a good sound system. But, um, yeah, it, it, it, it spooked me out.

It was good. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s real creepy. Well, um, the second time around that figure in, in real life is actually her mom, her mom’s bed is, Is empty. And uh, that’s when her mom collapses into her arms and they have a funeral. Her dad rushes in. The whole family’s crying. The Muslim burial tradition is that you wrap the body in white and then you, uh, you lower it into the grave and you expose its face.

I didn’t know that. I was curious. Yeah, that’s, uh, that was also explained to me. And then because of that, there’s also an Indonesian ghost that sort of hops around that, uh, Is still sort of, kind of wrapped at hops, which would be Okay. Creature. 

Craig: Yeah. Now that I think about it, it, I think that, uh, at the end when they are besieged by these supernatural creatures, I think they’re wrapped in their white shrouds.

Todd: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Come to of it. Yeah. It’s all kind of death, death, um, funerals type stuff. And then Bondi is reciting this thing that, that we heard about earlier, that his friend told him that, uh, if once the last family member worked walks 40 steps from the grave, After the burial, the body wakes up, realizes it’s dead, and then dies again.

There’s a Muslim prayer group in the house, but it’s clear that this family is not, I mean, there it is just, um, understated that this family is not religious because there’s a few comments here and there. There’s Muslim prayer group is going on inside the house after the funeral, and I think it’s, um, Tony or just sitting there as these guys are praying and, uh, dad even mentions to Bondi.

I think that his family. Isn’t into superstition. So, um, he doesn’t need to be afraid about his room because he is a little afraid at times. You know, they just, they’re just getting a little creeped out here and there, and then dad has to leave the house to go and raise money. Uh, and they, it’s also conveniently mentioned that their phone is disconnected because they have the money problem.

So, Here you go. Classic situation. No phone, isolation, graveyard nearby. Dad’s gone. And it’s just these four kids in the house now getting along and immediately scary things are happening. Bondi goes to, goes, gets up out of bed. Uh, he shares a room actually with Ian. And actually I really like their dynamic.

I did too. It’s that typical. The youngest kids maybe a little closer in age, uh, sharing the room together and uh, Ian speaks in sign language the whole time. And they all seem to know quite a bit of sign language, but especially Bondi and him, you know, just basically talk back and forth from their, you know, their twin beds that are across the room and there’s a window there and he wakes up and sees somebody walking around in the graveyard with a flashlight.

And, uh, Tony gets up, hears, uh, was listening to his radio in bed and his radio is playing his mom’s song and he turns it to another station and then it kinda mysteriously goes back to his mom’s song and then he turns it. Back again. And then it’s almost sounds like it’s giving, I, I, I don’t know if this was supposed to be like, uh, dis earlier discussions their family had had or something that his mom was talking or something like that.

It seems like. Seems to be coming over the 

Craig: radio. I didn’t know because those, in, in the version that I watched, the, the dubbed version, those parts were not dubbed. Oh, they 

Todd: weren’t translated, huh? No, 

Craig: no, they weren’t translated, nor were there subtitles. So I had no idea what. What, what was going 

Todd: on there?

Yeah. Something like that. But then, you know, he hears his, um, mom’s bell ringing, and so he goes upstairs into his mom’s room and sees the bell That just kind of falls from the bed and, and then the, the plumbing stops working. So they have this, well, that is, uh, in kind of a little house attached to the house.

Right. 

Craig: I didn’t understand that at all. Like, I Okay. I, I can, I can, you know, are they’ve got a, well, all right, fine. Why was that also their bathroom? Like, like every time they have to pee, they go take a piss right next to the well like that. That’s gross. Probably wouldn’t be what I would do. Yeah, 

Todd: yeah.

Apparently, especially like if you’re your, you know, boys out kind of in the woods or whatever, like this isn’t, this isn’t atypical and then you just take some water and you just kind of. Dump it across the floor and it just kind of washes into the ground. Okay. Yeah, I mean, 

Craig: I mean, I, I get it. Like when, when, when I, when we’re talking about a, well, like, this is like a big, it’s huge.

Well, yeah, it, it’s, uh, I would say probably, oh, I don’t know, four or five feet in diameter. It’s stone, it’s dug way down. Uh, at some point we end up. Down in there with somebody and like the water’s clean. I’m sure it’s all fine. I would just feel weird about pissing right next to my water supply. 

Todd: Right.

That’s a good point. All right. Uh, well, it’s, it’s sort of like their washroom, so there’s a Well, on one side Yeah, there’s sort of a tub on the other side. Obviously the whole place is, is plumbed, but for some reason the water’s not working and they can just drop a bucket in and get some water. Anyway, it’s pretty convenient, I suppose, to have it attached to the house.

At first, I thought, you know, they actually had to go outside for it, but it’s. It’s just right there. It’s like a door at the end of the hallway that you go through that leads straight into that room, and that room is suitably spooky. I mean, the minute I saw this room, I’m like, all right, we’re gonna have some well scenes.

Yep. Mm-hmm. You’re gonna have some spooky, well scenes, which seems to be, it is, seems to be a par for the chorus in modern horror films, especially, uh, Especially Asian horror when you know, since the rain. Yeah, the rain. 

Craig: Yeah, that’s true. Those two boys sharing room Bondi looking over at Ian in the night in the dark.

That was so reminiscent to me of something else. And of course there are lots of movies where siblings share rooms and weird things. Something we did this 

Todd: week comes. Something like 

Craig: that. Yeah. Well, right in uh, one of the conjuring or bo or two of the Conjuring movies. I don’t know. There are lots of them, but it reminded me of something so much and I can’t think why, but Atmospherically, it’s great.

It’s very spooky and it’s very ghosty and, and you know, the mom dies and they’re. Seeing weird ghostly figures around and then creepy stuff is happening and the grandma like gets up in the middle of the night or something and the next thing we know, somebody finds her dead at the bottom of the well and they’re like, oh, she must have just slipped and fell 

Todd: in there, I guess.

Right. Grandma who doesn’t really walk. Yeah. 

Craig: And And then weird things continue to happen. Yeah. And I think that for a while they think that grandma is haunting them. Yeah. But then I think that later on they think, wait, maybe she wasn’t haunting us. Maybe she was trying to warn us, or maybe she was trying to protect us in some way.

There are also these ancillary characters. Yes. There’s. Is he a, a, a priest or, or something that moves in? Yeah. Or later, next to them, like right before mom dies or right after mom dies or 

Todd: something. Gustad uh, is a term for teacher and he’s obviously, I don’t know, I originally, I kind of thought he was maybe an an imam or something.

Um, but uh, yeah, he’s like a Muslim, almost like the Muslim father of the Muslim, Muslim pastor who seems to be a good friend of the family. And he has a son, right. Who is the son? 

Craig: Hendra is the son and he’s probably about Rey’s age, and they kind of, you know, strike up, you know, a conversation at the mom’s funeral.

And so, so they’re there, Rey, when things start getting weird, they can get information from him and some guidance from him. He’s more really just kind of a. Oh, I don’t know. He, he comforts them. He doesn’t really do a whole lot. He’s just kind of a source of comfort. But after the grandma dies, they also find this letter that she had written and addressed, but not sent.

And so they take it to the. A dress and they deliver it to this weird guy and like I guess the letter, in the letter, she was asking this guy to save her family. And it turns out this weird old man is a friend of grandma’s and he tells them this story about how the grandmother didn’t let the grandmother is the mother of the dad, I think didn’t bless the son’s marriage.

Because one of them was infertile. The mom was infertile, I think. Yeah, I 

Todd: think, well, number one, cuz the son was an artist and so like, she didn’t really approve. And number two. Yeah. Because they couldn’t 

Craig: Who’s mom was she, was she the, was she the mom’s mom or the dad’s mom? She was the mom’s mom. Okay. Yeah.

Um, anyway, whatever. So she didn’t approve of the wedding. The grandma, like this old guy just tells us this like, okay, the grandma believed that mama didn’t ask God for her children. But asked Satan. Yes, 

Todd: it’s a bit hokey. It 

Craig: is. And that’s, that’s the first time we’re introduced to this notion, which ultimately is true, but like, that’s just, oh, maybe she didn’t ask God.

She asked Satan. We’ll come back to that. Put a pin in that. We pin in that. We’ll come back to it later. 

Todd: It, it might be, it might be important, who knows? Uh, instead of giving him the whole. Spiel. He handsome a magazine at, at her in magazine and says, read my article about it. Oh my 

Craig: God, that was so funny to me.

Like, here, I wrote an article in this magazine. Read it. It, it, it, it so sounded to me like you should listen to my podcast, right? So 

Todd: there’s some douchebag who doesn’t want to answer questions. Like I tell you what, I, I answered all this in my book. Go buy a copy and read it, and then if you have more questions, get back to me.

It’s hilarious. It re 

Craig: it to me more than that. It seemed like he was really proud of the fact. Yeah. That he had like published this article and this magazine and he thought that that was gonna be really helpful to her. What I have next to my notes, and I don’t even remember how it transitions to this, but we see the two little boys in their room, I think, and Bondy.

Maybe they’re not in their room, I don’t know, but we see Bondy and he’s. Chanting over and over to himself. I don’t want to kill my little brother. I love my brother. And he just keeps saying it over and over again. Yes. So something weird. Is 

Todd: going on. Yeah. And it’s just a sudden change really in Bondi.

It’s, it’s quite sudden and it’s, uh, it’s pretty creepy. He’s staring at him creepily, um, Ian’s watching tv and he’s behind him just kind of staring at him. The, one of the scariest moments, I think, is when they’re laying in bed, and it might have been just after what you mentioned, boy does the, does the camera play with you?

I mean, you know, something freaky is gonna happen with Bondi. You’re just not sure what it is. And so it’s that classic bit where, We get a close up on Ian and he turns away from him in bed and then he kind of turns back to him and I’m just waiting for something, you know, once the camera pans right back up, what’s Bondi gonna be doing or is he gonna be standing next to the bed or, you know, what’s the deal?

Bondi is laying in bed and his eyes are closed. He’s clearly asleep or pretending to be asleep, and he is signing in his sleep very deliberately over and over for Ian. I want you to die. Oh, I didn’t catch that. Oh, Jesus. That was, that was, I thought, one of the freakiest parts of the whole movie. 

Craig: That is creepy.

Well, and I hated that. Like obviously there’s something going on. Obviously some outside force is affecting Bondi, but I hated that because they had so well there were so good. It’s just good film filmmaking. Yeah. They’ve established that this family is. Tight. And Bondi and Ian, especially the two youngest brothers, are really close and direction acting, writing all comes together like I’m invested in this family and the fact that Bondi is struggling against this, whatever it is that’s trying to sway him, to manipulate him, he’s fighting it.

Oh. It kind of just tore up my heartstrings. 

Todd: Yeah, it was. That was good. It was horrible. I mean, he’s the most vulnerable kid in the whole, in the whole movie, you know? And so, especially the fact, but nobody’s ever 

Craig: really worried about him. No. Like he suffers it on his own. Like nobody knows that this is going 

Todd: on.

Exactly. And he’s a strong kid too. I mean, you know, it’s kind of surprising how much he can take without like making a big deal out of it. And then there’s just some kind of random, odd stuff that I almost wonder, like maybe would be explored in a sequel or there’s a record of her mom’s that was put on the record player quite a while ago, and, uh, she’s playing it as it’s going around.

She notices the label is, is coming off and when she looks at it more closely, she realizes that under the label there was another little track to the record. A hidden track. Yeah. And so she starts playing it, but it doesn’t make. Sense, but then it sounds like backwards talk. And so then she spins the record backwards, which is, you know, this is this classic thing as well.

Yeah, yeah. I, I don’t even know what it was saying 

Craig: really. I don’t either. Cuz again, not dubbed or subtitled, so I didn’t know if it was saying anything 

Todd: but of eventually or far too late in my, in my. Opinion, but she decides to go ahead and read that article. Uh, or I 

Craig: know that’s so funny to me. Like, like he, he gives it to her and she looks at it and is like, okay.

But then she takes it home and waits a while Yeah. To read it. And then it’s like, and then when she reads it, it like totally lays it out. It’s hilarious. Like it’s, they’re, they’re talking about it and she’s explaining it, I think, to Tony, Tony or whatever his name is, and she’s like, it says that, um, it’s, it’s the story of Satanic.

Fertility cults. Mm-hmm. And, uh, they make deals with these women who can’t have kids, but the, the bargain is like, they’ll give them children, but the last born child must be surrendered to the cult so that they can sacrifice them when he reaches seven years old. Mm-hmm. Um, and Tony’s like, wait a second, how old are you?

And she’s like, 21 or something and, and he’s like, well, I am 15 and Bondy’s, uh, 11 or something. She’s like, they’re 

Todd: all six years apart. They’re 

Craig: all about six years apart. So before she got sick, mama always had another baby before the youngest could turn seven. Mm-hmm. That, that was not really a great plan.

Todd: Right? Mama, how long do you keep this, 

Craig: that that is, that is not a sustainable,

but whatever. That’s fun, clever. Um, and, and then they’re like, wait a second. Well, first Tony’s like, uh, God, I remember going to like mom’s events, like her, her concerts and stuff when she was young, and they’re always these weird people there. And then, and then he’s like, wait a second. Doesn’t Ian turn seven in three days?

Right. And, and yes. And yes. But there is a stipulation that the, the child can only be taken if the family willingly gives him up. Yeah. But. If he is taken, then he’ll be taken by the living dead. Mm-hmm. Uh, which is what happens. And then lots of other creepy stuff happens. Grandma’s wheelchair moves around by itself.

Mm-hmm. God, I don’t know, I don’t know how much of this you wanna talk about cause it’s just a bunch of creepy stuff basically. 

Todd: Yeah. Basically is, yeah. Well this woman is a appearing everywhere, which it seems like the teacher Usad, uh, son seems to think. Is a evil entity that it just looks like her mother but is not actually right.

Uh, their mother, according to the article, they can’t defeat the creature, but they can disobey their rules. You know, like you said, like you said, by not giving them up. Um, and also one thing that’s mentioned in the article is that the women in the cult are impregnated by the men in the 

Craig: cult. Yeah. They don’t reveal that until later.

Mm-hmm. Like, I feel like Tony just randomly brings that up later. It just, it’s just, by the 

Todd: way, don’t, isn’t it weird that we all look different from each other? This totally explains it. 

Craig: See which all along. Okay. So at that point, I guess I hadn’t really thought about it all along. It really was at this point specifically that I thought, what does the dad know about all this?

Yes, exactly. Like if, if all of the children are fathered by different men, it seems weird that he wouldn’t know anything. 

Todd: Yeah, I was definitely wondering why is dad gone? Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Yeah. Why is he gone? That’s a good question. But he does come back 

Todd: eventually. The preacher’s son, uh, the guy who starts, his name starts with the H uh, he eventually goes back to that old man, and this is where things I thought got kind of silly because we’re seeing all of this stuff where Ian is definitely in peril.

Bondi is still menacing him. It looks like he’s gonna, you know, get a, he’s kind of steals a knife. But then the knife gets found and all this stuff, he’s still looking creepy. And then, uh, the, the preacher son goes to the old man and the old man’s like, there’s a new development. Here is my latest article.

It’s unpublished, but you need to give it to the family right now. And he hands him this letter. I thought that was such a contrivance, honestly. Oh, this whole 

Craig: sequence. Oh, I know. It’s silly. But the, the whole sequence was very, the omen. Yeah. You know, like he’s, anybody who is involved in this is going to, you know, to be fair.

This is great. Like, so the guy, uh, Hendra or whatever his name is, takes the magazine and is he, he’s riding a, like a motorbike, right? Uhhuh. And he’s taking it and he gets not just hit by a truck but run over and it’s one of the most realistic looking, oh my God. Accidents that I’ve ever seen. I thought it, it looked like could, it could have been.

I mean, how would a camera ever have been placed at that angle to show it, but it looked. So real. Every 

Todd: bit of it looks real. It looks really good. He gets hit, he gets run over, and then, um, he gets dragged under the car for a little bit first. And, and you see it like, 

Craig: you see his face being dragged along the pavement.

Oh, it just looks terrible. And then they, they carry his body back to his. Father and, and you don’t see too much of the aftermath, but, oh boy, I just thought that was super effective. It, it had that same kind of realism of those same type of supernatural accidents. Yes. In the omen, you’re right. It’s very, the omen.

It felt very real and very violent. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And then dad sh Dad’s home. And he says, tomorrow we’re gonna pack up our things and we’re moving to an apartment downtown. Yep. Yep. But this is when Rey approaches dad, cuz she’s having the same idea we are. Right. Uh, uh, about the, the night, um, her mom died because there was an earlier scene where dad actually said something to the mother, it was way back early in the movie when mom was still alive.

And so you don’t think much of it, but what he had said to her, if, if you wrote it down, cuz I had. Was, please spare the children. Something like that. Uhhuh, and he’s real coy about it. He won’t really tell her what he said. But at this point, all hell starts breaking loose because Ian’s going to the bathroom and the door slams and they find him down in the well, and Dad dives in after him.

Oh, that 

Craig: was spooky. Dad breaks open the door just in time to see that ghostly woman pulling. Yes, Ian down into the well, and then dad dives in there and looks around underwater and eventually pulls him up. But you’re right. I don’t remember like the exact sequence, but they’re, they’re all packed up.

They’re gonna be leaving, but their car never arrives. Mm-hmm. And they just shrugged that off, like, ah, I guess they must have got tied up or something. I’m thinking, no, this is terrible. This is his birthday 

Todd: night. Yes. They’re gonna celebrate his birthday at midnight and 

Craig: the, at midnight. Right. They were gonna sell, Right in their new home, but now they’re not in their new home.

They’re in the old home. And of course, midnight comes around again. Lots and lots of spooky stuff that we’re skipping over, but um, eventually they look out and all of these things are. Coming towards the house now. First it’s like the cult members gather around the house. Yeah. They all have umbrellas. All these people shrouded and black, and I don’t remember how they get them to leave.

I think they just begged them to leave. Mm-hmm. And then you see the cult members, all of them reach out their hands and drop something under the ground. I thought they were scattering dirt. I didn’t know what it was. So then they’re still there. Maybe that’s the night before his birthday or something, I don’t know.

Um, but then the night of his birthday, they read again. I think they, they get somehow that new article, that new information, and it says that the, the cult members don’t actually collect the child. The cult members just mark the spot where he couldn’t be found. And it turns out that they had dropped these red.

Seeds. Yes. Um, you know, actually all around 

Todd: the house, I have a bracelet made from these seeds. I haven’t seen these seeds in years. I, I think I got it in Hong Kong or something. It’s just these beautiful little red seeds that you can, yeah, they are. So that was kind of an interesting element. And then it turns out again, according to his new article, That that last child is actually the anti-Christ, basically the anti-Christ, like none of this suddenly makes sense anymore.

I was on board with the story up to that point because it was all quite straightforward and spooky and, and again, kind of like what we’ve heard before. Now, why is the last son the anti-Christ? 

Craig: Well, and and they never used that word, to be fair. Yeah. They, they say the son of Satan, but I was all, I was still very, not confused but interested because.

I did. They’re not Christian, so 

Todd: Yeah, I guess it doesn’t matter. I think Satan’s there anyway. It’s gonna take the sun. 

Craig: I, I see. I don’t know. I don’t know enough about, but I don’t, the Muslim faith, I, I, well, they’re not Muslim. I mean, 

Todd: even the titles they have No, oh, the cult. Yeah, the cult is, uh, Well, 

Craig: whatever.

Yeah. I, I don’t know, but whatever. Satan, they’re Satan slaves. Satan’s, 

Todd: they, it’s Satan. 

Craig: It’s Satan. So they’re there like at night, and now Ian is acting weird. First of all, he can talk now. So Oh, that was freaky. That was freaky when he started talking. Um, and I was also very impressed with that very, very young actor.

I would guess that kid was maybe six. Mm-hmm. Um, super young. I, I, I don’t know if. I, I know nothing about him. I don’t know if he actually is deaf and they dubbed his voice or, but I mean, he seemed to be pretty proficient in sign language. That could just be coaching too. I don’t know. But it was very unsettling when he just started talking and he starts talking when all of this crazy scary stuff is going on and he’s gleeful.

Yeah. So you really kind of come to realize this is, this kid is not who or what we thought. He was, or at least he’s 

Todd: not anymore, which comes out of left field. I mean, it’s either one or the other. Right? Either he’s being taken by this cult, uh, and he’s in danger, or he’s actually not in danger because he’s gonna willingly go to the cult anyway because he’s actually Satan seat.

You know, I, I just thought that that last twist was like a little disappointing at how sudden it was, it, it, it got a little nonsensical at that point. Well, 

Craig: it does seem that he goes to them willingly. Now, what I’ve been trying to get to is after the cult, then I, whether it’s later that night or the next night or whatever around.

You know, the time of his seventh, you know, midnight, his seventh birthday or whatever, then that’s when the supernatural entity start to approach, uh, in mass and it seems like they’re coming out of the cemetery. It looked very much to me, like night of the Living Dead. Yes. That’s what it looks like. Mm-hmm.

But I did find, uh, these, uh, entities are, and I have no idea how to pronounce, This, but they are pong, uh, which is a ve ghost that is said to be the soul of a dead person trapped in their shroud. Mm-hmm. Known in Indonesia as cane kahan. The shroud is the prescribed length of cloth used in Muslim burial, strapped the body of the dead person.

And there’s more to it than that. Um, and I didn’t even notice this, but, uh, apparently one of these. Pong, um, is Hendra the kid who got run over. Oh. Oh, I didn’t notice that. So they’re even familiar faces. So there’s kind of this showdown and ultimately, and this didn’t surprise me, I kind of felt it going this way.

They get the kid. Yeah. 

Todd: The kid basically goes to them more or less. Yeah. Yeah. They get him and he goes away. He almost like waves goodbye gleefully to the family. 

Craig: And then the grandma’s friend, I think, shows up out of nowhere. Yes. And just throws, throws them all in his van and there’s like a tense moment where you don’t know if his van’s gonna start and the ghost are outside and then it just starts and they drive away to black.

Come up on this brightly lit city street one year later. And, uh, the family is living in an apartment in town. Mm-hmm. And it seems like they’ve adjusted. 

Todd: Yeah. I don’t, the the ghosts, the, the, the ghosts got what they wanted. Now they’re safe. I, I just keep thinking like, what did, what, aren’t they pissed at the father?

It seems like to me, the, the father left knowing some shit was gonna go down. Because, 

Craig: yeah, but see, that’s not suggested. I didn’t think it was 

Todd: suggested. It wasn’t suggested by anyone. But I’m just logically thinking, why did he leave? Why did he tell mother to be merciful on the kids? Why was he so coy?

You know, when the daughter was asking about all this, I mean, he clearly knew everything that was going on, so he would also have to know about the bargain. And then he, okay, see, 

Craig: I didn’t pick up on all. Like, come on. I didn’t pick up on all of that. To, to finish out the movie, this woman, a neighbor presumably, um, comes over and gives them food and then goes back to her own apartment where she talks to her husband and her husband says, um, we have to make them comfortable here.

We have to make sure they never leave. Um, and it shows on their wall that they have a, a huge world map with push pins. All over it. I have no idea what that means. Mm-hmm. But the wife says it’s almost time for another harvest. And then she and her husband dance and the chi and the, the credits come up and roll over them dancing.

They’ve got a big charla. Yeah, right. Oh, that big jar of the red seeds. That’s right. So obviously they’re somehow connected to this cult. Yep. Did you read about the sequel? No, I didn’t. Okay. I did This sets it up and I, I kind of thought that you must have, and you know, folks, this, this podcast is always full of spoilers.

Uh, so if you don’t want any spoilers for the sequel, don’t listen to this. The dad does have something to do with it. 

Todd: Oh, he does? Ah-huh. He’s got to uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Interest. I’m kind of interested in the sequel now. 

Craig: Well, it, it follows the family. I think that it starts, I think that the sequel opens, uh, in the 1950s and we get some more exposition, but then it catches back up with this family, huh.

Um, and, and follows them more. Uh, yeah, I’d be interested enough to watch it because I think that this was a good movie and I was invested in it. I was interested until the end. I just, I don’t know, I just didn’t walk away from it thinking, wow, well that was amazing. Like, I have to tell people about it right away.

I just thought, you know, that was good. You know, it was, it was just another good movie that I saw. I, I probably a year from now, I may not even remember much about it, but. I 

Todd: liked it anymore. I kind of feel this way about these movies. I mean, how many haunted movie, you know, possession, haunted House, movie kind of, can you see, especially the modern ones like.

Like, how many times have we referenced other films in talking about this movie? Oh yeah. This is just like the omen. This has got a bit of the conjuring. Oh yeah. This is kind of the theme of Poltergeist, you know? Right. Like eventually they’re all, they’re all kind of mining similar territory, which is why I don’t get terribly excited about them.

Right. And, uh, I don’t expect too much from them. You know, if, if they give me a, a few scares, they show me kind of an interesting story. That’s good enough for me. But there’s gotta be something just crazy Stand out about it before, right. I’m gonna be like, oh my God. You know, run out and see this one. Right.

That’s exactly 

Craig: how I feel about it. Like, it, it’s, it’s perfectly serviceable. It’s a good movie and, and somebody who maybe doesn’t watch as many horror movies, As we do would probably find this pretty scary. Oh yeah. I think it’s a scary movie. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think it’s a scary movie. Um, I, again, I, I, I’m not, I don’t really have anything negative to say about it.

I think it is perfectly competent. I think it’s well shot. I think it’s well directed. I think it’s well acted. I think the story is adequate. It kept me engaged and I really liked the, um, I, I genuinely was engaged with this family. I, I was interested in them. I was interested or what was, what was going to happen to them.

I, I really, I don’t know if it’s right to say I was sad, but it was kind of a gut punch. It was that they got that cute little kid at the end. It really 

Todd: was, it made me sad. You know, it kind of makes you sad all around, like here, just the whole idea, right? This desperate mother who goes to this extreme just to have kids and now.

Then she’s doesn’t wanna lose her kids. And so she’s stuck in this cycle with, you know, that she is having more and more just to not lose them. And then of course you gotta pay the devil his due eventually. And, and that’s a shame because this family, like you said, is just so loving and, and caring and they’re just so good.

Um, so yeah, it’s kind of unfortunate. I, I 

Craig: just wanted to, it just occurred to me, Stephen King has a, a short story that is somewhat. Similar to this. It’s, it’s called Grandma, uh, I think it was in Skeleton Crew, maybe night shift. I don’t remember. But I really like that story. And it deals with Satanic fertility issues too.

So if you’re interested, check 

Todd: that out. Oh, okay. Interesting. Well, I’m, I’ve gone kind of down a little rabbit hole of Indonesian horror movies. I’m, I’m very curious what, maybe we need to do a theme month at some point. There’s. There’s a lot that this director has done. Um, obviously the sequel to this, he did one apparently called him Pego.

That looks interesting. I’ve heard of that. There’s like the Queen of Black Magic and um, By another director, one that was highly acclaimed, called May the Devil Take You. I’ve heard of that. All of these get, have pretty good ratings actually and, and many of them are remakes of earlier movies. And you know how I kind of like the older movies as well.

Yeah. I was thinking maybe one day, perhaps around Halloween we could uh, we could do the original Satan slaves cuz it looks. Suitably camping. Maybe it could be fun, so. Sure. Yeah. Well, greetings again from Indonesia. Thank you very much for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend.

You can find us online just by Googling “two guys and a chainsaw podcast”. Find our website, uh, find our Twitter feed. Find our brand new, uh Instagram page. Drop us a note at any one of those places. Let us know what you thought of this film and this episode, and any other movies that we should do in the future.

We love taking and fulfilling requests. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This pitch-black comedy skewers much more than meat and veggies. The whole relationship between artists and its patrons, food and foodie culture is cooked up and served for discussion, critique, and pointed action as one rogue chef (played by Ralph Fiennes) decides he’s had enough. Equal parts hilarious, pretentious and unsettling, we clearly both lapped up the wicked dish that director Mark Mylod was serving.

The Menu (2022)

Episode 342, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Craig, you picked this week’s movie. It is 2022. It’s fresh. It’s fresh on the menu.

Craig: You’re so stupid.

Todd: What’s wrong with me? I don’t know. You, you do this week after week. We’re under 342nd episode right now. Geez. Can I like shake it up a little bit, try to be original.

Is there any original you can try? I guess is there any originality left in the world anymore segue into this, this week’s, uh, movie, The Menu 2022, directed by Mark Mylod and starring of bevy of famous actors. Not the least of which Ralph Fiennes, and I don’t know if there’s a single movie in the last two decades.

Been amazing that he hasn’t been in, uh, this guy’s everywhere. It’s crazy. And this movie, um, well, I I had never even heard of it before, but that’s mostly because I’m in China, so I’m kind of out of the loop with movies. But you recommended it. What, what made you, uh, decide to do this this week? Uh, I don’t remember 

Craig: why I picked it for this week, but I remember when it came out, I, I remember seeing trailers, I don’t remember.

It must have been on some streaming service. They were showing trailers and it looked interesting. Uh, and, and just one of the good things about this movie is, um, even in their advertising, they didn’t reveal a whole lot. Mm, you could tell that it was going to be suspenseful. You could tell that the stakes were gonna be high.

There was one line, it’s a funny line in the movie where one character says, uh, no, we’re gonna die tonight. And another character’s like, oh, yeah, definitely, definitely. And, and I, that line was in it, so I knew the stakes were gonna kind of be high, but that’s kind of it as far as the premise went. But it looked really well, ma well made, and it’s got a pretty amazing cast.

It’s 

Todd: remarkable. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, these, gosh, the, the people I, I, I hesitate to say that they’re not a list stars because they are. Yeah. Really most of them. Um, but they are not, some of them are not your typical, um, leads. Y y you’ll, you’ll know virtually everybody in this cast. You’ll recognize virtually everybody in this cast.

Um, and they’re all fantastic. And, and I like that about the movie too. It feels, even though it focuses on. A couple of main characters. It really feels like an ensemble piece. Yes, it does. And I was interested and invested. In all of the characters. Yeah. So, and that, I think that says a lot about a movie it, cuz it’s a big cast.

So to be invested and interested in all of them, uh, I think that, that says something good. 

Todd: No, I think you’re right. I mean, all very experienced actors and the acting in this movie is fantastic, even though the premises is absurd and hilarious. This, this movie’s a very, very dark comedy. Mm-hmm. Basically.

Mm-hmm. So dark that it actually bothered me a little bit. I, I, the last time I watched a movie that was such a dark comedy that it kind of got under my skin and, um, I had a hard time falling asleep the next day was very bad things. Do you remember that one back in the nineties? No. Did you ever see that?

See that? Oh no. God, it’s like about a bachelor party gone awry, you know, as somebody gets killed and then horrible things just start happening after that. Mm. And it’s like, you wanna laugh, but the things that are happening are so bad that you feel icky. You know? Mm-hmm. And this movie really toyed with my, maybe I’m just a sensitive guy, but like this movie really toyed with me back and forth.

I had to keep reminding myself, this is not real. This is a comedy, you know? Um, it’s so parody. I mean, it’s such a comedy that it, I, I’ve read some criticisms online that say it’s a bit too much. You know, there are people that complain that it’s um, uh, just too on the nose, you know? Um mm-hmm. But I don’t agree.

I mean, it is very on the nose, but I thought the aesthetic was great. I thought that was a fine movie because of it and because these cooking shows and this whole culture of foodies or whatever, that it’s parodying are very much like that. Don’t get me wrong, I love cooking shows and I love watching travel series about food in different places.

And I have watched documentaries about Noma and at least two or three of the other famous, like hot cuisine, you know, innovative, like crazy out there restaurants that this movie is parodying. And so while I was watching it, I was quite giddy. Mm-hmm. You know, because I felt like this is definitely in my interest, even though I don’t myself.

I, I also think it’s silly. Think what, what? That, this kind of cuisine is a little silly. Like, I like the idea that there are people out there doing crazy things with food and making weird, odd presentation because it’s like art, you know? It’s, it’s like, uh, right? It’s like food is art in a way. So I like that in the same sense.

Like, I don’t buy in that this is very important to society. I don’t buy in that. Um, and, and I, and I think there’s a very, like a class element to it where this is only accessible for very, very rich people, right? And so it kind of ends up becoming quite pre pretentious. And so, you know, that’s just not, that’s not my class.

I don’t know, maybe if I was a very, very rich person, I hung out with my peers in that way, then I, I would think differently about it. And the same level I would want to eat at a place like Noma, I would probably be chuckling the whole time through, you know, so I, I really related to everything this movie was trying to say from that sort of social commentary angle.

And I, I, I just loved it. I just really enjoyed that aspect of it, because at the one hand, I was fascinated by even the dishes and Right. You know, the environment and the chef’s attitude and everybody’s attitude there. At the same time, I had no problem laughing at it because I thought, yeah, it’s like they’re reading my mind, you know?

I make fun of these people all the time. Should I, I want to hope I’m not one of ’em. You know, it, I don’t know. I’m, I guess what I’m trying to say is this is heavy on social commentary. Yeah. Some people have criticized it as being too heavy. I don’t agree. I think that’s the whole point. I think the things that they’re commenting are the.

Ripe for parody. So, you know, you get a huge pass there and nobody’s really, I don’t think anybody’s really done a horror movie like this before in this territory, so I kind of like 

Craig: it. Oh no, I’ve seen, see, that’s the thing. Gosh, what have you seen that, that was a lot what you just said. Sorry, 

Todd: I’ve gotta respond to my verbal diarrhea here.

Craig: That’s gonna be hard because there were like 15 times where I wanted to jump in, but you were just on a roll, so I wanted to let you go. Um, but I, I feel like right here out of the gate, you’re kind of getting into what the heart of the movie is like. Yes, it’s a movie about food, you know, and, and, and the culinary culture, and foodie culture and all of that stuff, and food as art, and who is consuming that because it’s limited to a very specific audience, right?

Like that is specifically the impetus of the movie. But I think the reason that I, I don’t know, I don’t think it. Affected me as much as it did you, but it made me think a lot. I really felt like this movie was a thinker. Mm-hmm. Because I think that the food element of it is meant to be representative of any art form that one may be passionate about.

Todd: Sure. It’s about passion. 

Craig: Yeah. Right. So whereas you say you kind of chuckle at, you know, these fancy, you know, platings and, and things and, and I do too, even though I, I really do appreciate the beauty of it. Yeah. Like I, I do look at it like art and, and frankly, I, that’s usually the only way that I get to consume it, because I see it on tv.

So I don’t know if this food tastes good or not, but it sure does look pretty. I actually do appreciate that. But if you chuckle at it, do you also chuckle at like, Modern abstract art. Like you, you know, an eight by eight white canvas with a red square in the corner and a splash of blue on the side like 

Todd: I do.

But it’s, it’s a qualified chuckle. You know what I’m saying? I think it’s silly sometimes when you go to an art gallery and the artist piece, there’s a 

Craig: banana nailed to the 

Todd: wall. Yeah. You know, it’s taped to the wall and then it becomes almost like a commentary on itself. And it’s like, this is a, actually a commentary on art, because art sometimes is stupid.

And so we’re doing this stupid thing, you know, and I, I buy into all that. I get it. I think it’s kind of crazy that people are lining up around the block to go stare at a banana that’s been duct taped to the wall. I mean, I read about it, I saw a picture of it. Do I want to be there in person? Do I need to be there in person to see it and pay like a whole bunch of money to do that?

You know, probably not. And I think at some level there’s a part of me that’s just a little uncomfortable at, at getting too serious about it. Because at the end of the day, art is art. And while we all appreciate it, and I think art is very important, I mean, God, you and I will, you know, I think are totally on the same page.

Oh yeah, of course. Here. Yeah. We think art is, is is, uh, the soul of humanity really. Yeah. That being said, on an individual case by case basis, like what’s more important, you know, there, there are bigger fish to fry in the world. There’s, there’s, there’s people who are starving who can’t even get anything to eat, right?

And so then you’ve got people on the other end who are paying, you know, several thousands of dollars to eat, you know, six morsels of food that are prepared by a team of 12 chefs who are being worked to the bone. Uh, over tiny, tiny little details. Not getting any sleep under chefs who are very, um, notoriously demanding and angry and abusive, right.

Over what you know, so that these rich people can have a spoonful of some essence of something or whatever that’s put, put into a little pellet or whatever. And like I said, I appreciate the effort, I appreciate the thought, I appreciate the artistry of it. But in sort of the greater social scheme, which again, like you said, this movie’s commenting on this kind of thing, I, I don’t wanna get too obsessive about it, lest I kind of like lose my grounding in life, you know what I mean?

Craig: Yeah. I don’t know. I, I understand what you’re saying and that’s what the movie is talking about. Or at least in part, you know, um, oh gosh. I don’t know how to say it without kind of jumping to the end, but it, it’s about, you know, who has access? To this food or who has access to this art and how, in what way do they appreciate it, if at all?

But, but what I’m saying, and I think that you are kind of saying the same thing, is that art is subjective and we don’t all appreciate it in the same way. Like I usually think that whoever taped the banana of the wall, I think that those artists are trolling. Much in the way that the chef in this movie is trolling.

Right. Kind of, you know what I mean? 

Todd: He’s definitely trolling. 

Craig: Yeah. Right. But I also think that there are some people who are very passionate about their art and maybe I just don’t understand it or appreciate it. Um, but they really are passionate about it. It’s difficult to tell the difference. Right. You said the last thing, last thing you said.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a movie like this before. I have seen probably, I don’t know, a handful of movies about people who are so passionate about their art and so competitive about their art that it drives them to lunacy. Sure. Like Black Swan, um, or there was a movie on Netflix, I think called The Perfection with these competing instrumentalists.

I don’t remember if they played the piano or the violin or what. Showgirls Well, yeah. You know, well, you, you get what I’m saying? Like I know what you mean. People who are, people who are so passionate about their art that they. We’ll go to whatever means necessary to accomplish what they wanna accomplish or, or make their point 

Todd: or whatever.

Well, I mean, at some level, like most of the serial killer typ horror movies or something like that, or about somebody who’s passionate about something, whether it’s literally killing people, whether it’s women, whether, you know, they feel like they’re in the wrong skin or something. I mean, I mean, yeah. And then, you know, knock that down a little bit and talk about it.

Restricted just to art. Okay. Yeah. There are definitely movies like that too. And then if you knock it down another level and take it to the kitchen, And hot cuisine like this. That’s what I was talking about. I don’t think I’ve, the only other movie I can think of that has kind of dealt with this very specific subject matter in this way is, um, I think it’s a Peter Greenaway movie called the the Cook the Thief, his wife and her lover.

Have you ever seen that? No. I would almost call it a horror movie. It’s maybe not a, it’s, it’s more drama, tragic drama kind of thing, although it has a more horrific ending, but it takes place in a high-end French restaurant with, um, a couple foodies and there’s a couple who, um, meets up, uh, in secret here at this restaurant.

The whole place, the whole movie almost never leaves this restaurant, and then it kind of goes to sinister ends. But, uh, in terms of, yeah, this, this very specific subject matter. I don’t know if I’ve, yeah, I’ve really seen it before. So there’s a movie that you 

Craig: should watch called The Platform, which is also.

A movie that uses food as a metaphor for the haves and have-nots. It’s a really cool movie. 

Todd: That’s not the one where people are on different platforms and trying Uhhuh, is it? Oh, okay. Yeah. I didn’t know that had anything to do with food. Yeah, because 

Craig: the, what it is, is it’s this prison, but the cells are stacked vertically and in everyday food descends from the top.

But, and it’s like all of this amazing gourmet food prepared much in the same way that this food is here, like with, with, with Ultimate Care. And it’s just this enormous platform of all this gourmet food. And, and, but as it descends, you just have to grab whatever you can and you have to eat it right then.

You can’t save anything. You have to eat it. Um, but it continues to descend. So the people at the top get 

Todd: whatever they want, they 

Craig: want, well they get great food, but the people, a hundred and some things down get. Scraps or whatever. Interesting. Um, but it’s inter because it becomes a metaphor about, you know, the haves and the have-nots.

Mm-hmm. And they realize, of course, people down below realize that if the people up above would just ration, then they, there would be plenty of food for everybody, but they don’t. And so it becomes a whole. Societal thing. It’s a great movie, but that’s not the movie we are talking about. The movie we are talking about is the menu.

Yeah. And what I, there are many, many things that I like about this, so I should just start with some of the easy ones. I think that it’s just beautifully shot, like, oh yeah, it just looks fantastic. It’s a lot of close up work, uh, because it’s very character driven, but the environ. Look great. And of course, you know, this is direction, but also, you know, design, uh, as well.

But the locations look fantastic. Like it starts out on this dock and, uh, we meet our main characters and, oh, I don’t even know, like if you haven’t figured it out yet, I really liked this movie. Me Too. And I feel like, I feel like there’s so much to say about it that I don’t know where to start. That’s why I’m trying to get the little things out of the way.

It, we will, we’ll come back to the dock in just a second, but this, this group of people take a ferry over to an island to go to this exclusive restaurant. You know, it, it’s only accessible by the ferry. You know, it’s super exclusive, super, super expensive, whatever. And this whole group of people’s going, um, and, and the island that they go to looks beautiful.

You know, like they all walk down the beach. That’s all, you know, like covered in like huge driftwood and stuff. It. Remote and fantastic. And then mm-hmm. You know, they, they walk like through this compound. You, it’s just this beautiful, uh, landscaped island. They’re led 

Todd: by a LA woman. Um, she’s very stern and very um, Oh, uh, it’s Elsa, right?

The kind of Elsa chef’s assistant, I suppose. She’s, yeah, she, I wouldn’t 

Craig: say she’s so much stern as she’s, she’s just very cool. Matter of fact, and cool Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, but it’s kind of, she’s, I guess the maitre d is that what we would call her? I don’t know these terms. Maybe she’s the chef’s assistant or something.

I don’t know. But she’s like one down, I below, yeah. Maybe she’s head of house or something. I don’t know. Whatever. Like the 

Todd: most trusted or whatever of the chef. Right. 

Craig: Exactly the right hand man. Um, and she’s cool. She’s great. The actress hung Choo plays her is great. Uh, I love her character. And, and then they go into this restaurant, which is where we spend most of the time, and it’s a seaside restaurant, so one whole wall.

Uh, windows glass that looks out over the beach. It’s beautiful. And then it’s very minimal and kind of modern with just round tables, you know, in the one dining area. And then behind that is the open kitchen so that they can see everything being prepared, and it all looks great. It’s all shot. Great. Every time the staff in the kitchen is cooking, they are actually cooking the actual dishes.

Mm-hmm. Like they, they were trained to do this. And so it looks authentic, like you said, you know, these shows, these cooking shows are immensely popular. I love them. I watch them, and it, it feels very authentic. It looks great. All right. So that’s me getting the little stuff out of the 

Todd: way. Very nice. Well, they brought in, um, uh, you know, quite a few consultants for this who had worked on cooking shows.

So, you know, to help with the photography, you know, there are moments in here where as they serve the dishes, you get these like close up shots of the food with little title cards and everything. Just like you get on these, on these cooking shows of these travel shows. It’s just wonderful. And the first thing I thought of, because I’ve had a bit of a fascination with it, um, because I used to own a restaurant at one time and so my head was really neat, deep into what kind of food are we gonna make?

What’s our menu gonna be? What’s our kitchen look like? You know, what directions are we going to go with it? And so, um, I’ve seen some documentaries about this end, you know, like Noma, and I’ve read a lot of the news and I kind of keep up on it just a little bit. Like I said, not because I’m, I’m not really that obsessed, but I just think it’s very interesting.

Sure. The writer, one of the writers of the movie, um, will Tracy, um, said that he came up with the idea when he was a Norway on his honeymoon, and he did something similar to this, where he took a boat to this really upscale restaurant on a private island and then realized that they were basically stuck there until the meal was done.

And this was like in Norway. Mm-hmm. And, um, A lot of what you see, like the design of the dining room and the way the layout is and stuff is very similar to Noma, which is maybe one of the most, you know, it’s been rated as like probably the best restaurant in the world. Once again, depends on your perspective of what best restaurant’s going to be.

But anyway, they invest a lot of time, a lot of money, and a lot of energy into really innovating and that, that I think is in Copenhagen. And it’s interesting that I think shortly after this movie was released, I’m not saying it had anything to do with the release of this movie, but just at some point late last year, um, the chef who owned Noma closed it down and he said that this, this is unsustainable.

You know, he said it’s stressful for everybody involved. The amount of money is crazy and all for what he just started to feel like moral. Challenged as the years went on with trying to sustain this kind of restaurant in this way. And when you see this all on the screen, you know, you can tell this is like private island.

They’ve got their own smokehouse. They, they raise their own things. I think it’s funny that another kind of running gag through the show is that there’s a French ish style waiter who comes by Uhhuh, like he’s the sommelier. Yeah. And he’s show showing them wine. And at one point he, I think his fr he has this like strong French accent that gradually disappears as the movie goes on.

Uhhuh. Yeah. But, um, at one point he shows them some wine and he said, this isn’t just from a, a specific year and vineyard, but this is from a specific vine on a specific like thing. Just really cute. The way that this, uh, calls to this whole culture and this very, very upscale. You know, type of experience that can only be sustained with a lot of people paying a lot of money and investing a lot of time into these things that they deem must be important to get the ultimate experience.

And all these guests who come here on this boat are looking for the ultimate experience. One of them has been there many times and uh, one of them is a food critic. Yeah, yeah. One of ’em is just a movie star, uh, with his assistant. That’s John Zamo. 

Craig: Then there’s the 

Todd: Entourage Boys, the bros, the Entourage Bros.

Clearly got some startup going in Silicon Valley, right? Yeah. But it mostly focuses around the story of, um, these, this couple, Tyler and Margot, and Margot is played by Anya Taylor Joy, who everybody recognizes from, um, the uh, the chess movie. Right. Oh God, I don’t know. She’s been in everything she has been, especially since then.

Yeah. The Queen scandal. She 

Craig: was, she was in the Witch. I think The witch was her first movie. She was the main 

Todd: girl. Oh yeah. We saw that in the theater together, 

Craig: didn’t we? We did. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we did. And I think she is fantastic. She’s great. Um, I, I think that she, I’ve seen her in a lot of stuff. She’s, she works a lot.

But I, I think she has, not only is she very talented, but she just has, she’s gorgeous, but she has just a really unique, unique look. Yeah. She has really big eyes and I, I think, uh, that, that works so well in this role. Yeah. Because she sees things that other people don’t see. So stupid. Look at that. Uh, but no, it’s, it’s fantastic.

She’s great. Uh, it, it was originally supposed to be Emma Stone and I love Emma Stone, but I think they got the right gal here. Yeah. Um, and, and Tyler is played by Nicholas Holt, who’s been working since he was a little boy. Yeah. And, and has, is still working. Renfield, um, in the new He stars in Renfield that comes out with Nick Cage.

Mm-hmm. Next week, I think like, He’s been everywhere. He’s been in 

Todd: a few X-Men, I think he’s Beast In in, in X-Men, several of the X-Men movies, Uhhuh and things. He was in Mad Max Fury Road and Uhhuh. A lot of stuff. A lot of stuff. He’s got a very familiar look. Yeah. 

Craig: And he’s good too, and he plays a really interesting character.

Mm-hmm. Um, the, the, the food critic is played by, her name is Lillian, and she’s played by Janet. Janet McTier. Um, did you watch Ozark? You probably didn’t, you’re not big into tv? No, no. Um, she was on Ozark and she played a badass. Uh, and she’s good in this movie too. The movie Star, who isn’t even really given a name is John Zamo.

Yeah. Who’s I just think is great. And he is, he’s, he’s playing kind of a watched up movie star and he based his performance on Steven Segal because he has worked with Steven Segal and hates him. 

Todd: Seems to be a common theme with people who’ve worked with Steven Segal. 

Craig: Yeah. Right. And then hi, his assistant, like you said, and then the older couple Richard, who’s played by Reid Bernie, I didn’t look him up.

He’s very familiar. He’s very familiar. His wife Anne, played by Judith Light. Oh my goodness. Uh, we are experiencing a Judith Light Renaissance and I am here for it. Like 

Todd: That’s crazy. Judith Light, she is popping 

Craig: up. Everywhere. What is with that? And I am, I don’t know, but I think she’s fantastic. She’s, she’s always been, I think she is an excellent, excellent actress.

So I am happy 

Todd: to see her. We all, we of course grew up with her on, who’s the boss as Andrew. Right. And, and when you really go back and look at her performance, she’s a fantastic actress. She’s like, yeah, really good. And she’s great in this too. Yeah. So she deserves a renaissance. 

Craig: She’s popping up in tv. I just saw her in an episode of Poker Face.

She was really good in that. Uh, gosh, I don’t know. I, I’ve been seeing her all over the place. And not only is she a good actress, but she’s really versatile. She’s a really versatile actress and she plays a different kind of character in this. Yeah. Whereas usually because of her stature, she’s usually kind of a dominating presence.

She’s a tall gal. Uhhuh. Yeah. And she’s got a big persona too. But in this. She’s meek and I get the feeling that she’s just kind of beaten down by life. Mm-hmm. And, and she just, ugh. I love her. And 

Todd: she and her husband are like argu. Like they’re cl clearly like they’re coming here, they’re clearly have money, but they’re, they’re relationship.

They’re clearly years long. Relationship is a bit on the rocks. You just get these hints every now and then that they’ve been married for 40, 50 

Craig: years. That’s what happens. 

Todd: It’s gonna happen. No judgment here. Trust me. For me, absolutely no judgment. That’s, that’s their thing, right? Every table’s kind of got their thing.

Right? There’s the dude, bro, guys, you know, who’ve got some thing going. Uh, there’s this guy. Well, the thing is they’ve all been more or less chosen to come 

Craig: here. They’ve been invited. Yeah. Right. Which is weird. Oh gosh. And bef uh, I don’t know how to, uh, go about it because it’s hard right? Twist and I, I don’t, it just reveals right.

Um, cuz Tyler and Margot, they’re just little things that I feel like are important. The, as soon as soon as we meet them, they’re the first person we meet. She’s smoking a cigarette. Babe, please don’t smoke. It’ll kill your palate. 

Todd: And my palate will die happy. Hey, Margo, tonight is huge. Okay? The flavor profiles, it’s all super 

Craig: delicate.

When you smoke, you ruin your ability to be able to appreciate it. Come on, please. He’s like, well listen, since I’m the one paying, can you not? Um, and that’s totally a normal thing to say, 

Todd: but, but it’s got another meaning, right? 

Craig: Like, uh, And then there’s a moment there on the ferry. They’re served a boat course.

Okay. Whatever. Um, it, but it’s just, it’s an oyster, but it’s like fancy. There’s like some kinda like, foam on it and like some like golden caviar or whatever. Uh, Tyler pulls out his phone and takes a picture of it and 

Todd: goes on about it and 

Craig: stuff. Oh. Goes on, like, oh, it, it’s so pretentious. Like, every time that he talks about food, it’s just the most pretentious thing.

He’s really annoying. Like this one, he says something like, it’s laughable. It, it, it just makes me want to laugh, like, like in a good way. Like it, it’s, it’s dumb. He’s super pretentious, super weird, super obnoxious and annoying. You wonder, you’re like, she seems cool. Yeah. Why is she with him? He seems so annoying.

It’s weird. But anyway, okay, so there’s that set up with them, but then you’re, I guess I can kind of understand why people would say it’s a little bit on the nose because you’ve got each table and really when it breaks it down, when it comes down to it, and I didn’t come up with this on my own, but I looked it up and I don’t know if it was intended, but it seems pretty it it got weight that like there’s a representative of each of the deadly sins.

Oh yeah. Somewhere in that. Somewhere in that. I’ve read that 

Todd: too. Kitchen, there’s gluttony, there’s greed, there’s yeah. 

Craig: Uhhuh. And you know when you read the explanation you’re like, yeah, that makes sense. 

Todd: That tracks. Yeah. So it’s all pretty high concept. You know, and that’s, yeah. But 

Craig: That’ss the thing I can see me, I was just gonna say that’s, I understand why people could say it’s a little bit on the nose, but I think it’s intentional.

Uh, I think it’s purposeful. 

Todd: It’s like watching a naked gun movie and saying, well, that was really dumb. Like, dumb. Yeah. That’s why are you watching this movie if you don’t want, I mean, that’s, they’re trying to be this way. So none of that bothered me at all. In fact, I thought it was the strength of the movie, like, good for you that you can make a movie like this and get all these stars involved.

Well, I think it was, um, executive produced by, um, will, will, uh, Ferrell and Adam McKay. Oh, I didn’t know that. Yeah. So, um, You know it, it had weight behind it from the very beginning. So I think that’s why they were able to get all these stars involved. But yeah, who wouldn’t want to be in this sort of high concept horror movie?

You know, that kind of skewers is an easy target. You know, pretentious rich people or whatever and hot cuisine, you know? So, yeah. Okay. It’s an easy target. Yeah, it’s very high concept. Yeah. There’s all the symbolism and all this stuff, so what? I like it. That’s what makes it fun. That’s what I enjoyed about watching it.

Yeah. If you’re coming in here hoping for something super realistic, you’re watching the wrong movie, cuz it’s a parody 

Craig: it, right? Right. It is. Uh, that being said, I mean, it’s set within a world of realism. Yes. Like, there, there’s no magic going on behind the scenes here, aside from culinary magic. Ooh. Uh, but no.

Like, it could happen, but it’s, it, yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s farfetched. It’s, it’s also, you know, the fact that all of these people were specifically invited. That’s, I actually do have, take issue a little bit with the movie now. As another important thing to note, I was just looking at my notes. Margot is not supposed to be there.

Right. We find out when they’re checking in with Elsa. Tyler had a, had a different guest, a different woman. Um, but he says something like, oh, something came up. There’s a change of plans. And Elsa, like, it’s not just like, okay, like yeah. Hmm. It seems like it may be an issue. Uh, but they let them in anyway.

Take them through the barracks and get them in there. And one of the only rules, like there really aren’t any rules except for one, don’t take pictures of the food. And then Tyler continues to take pictures 

Todd: ev all the time 

Craig: they can see you. Like, and he, he kind of acts like he’s doing it surreptitiously.

No, everybody can see you like Elsa and the chef are looking right at you. Yeah. But it starts out normal. I mean, it’s very theatrical. Uh, and the chef comes out, Ray finds, and um, like he walks to the, you know, to the, through the kitchen, to the dining room. And he stands there and he claps and the whole kitchen comes to attention.

Yeah. It’s very silly. Oh, but also totally believable. Yeah. Especially, especially in a restaurant like this, which obviously these kinds of restaurants do exist, where in part. You’re paying for the show. 

Todd: Right, exactly. 

Craig: Now, it, it may not be this choreographed in a lot of places, but that’s part of the experience.

So I get it. He’s being theatrical. The critic who has, who has been to his restaurant before says this is his deal. Yeah. He, he, he’s a theatrical guy. It’s part of the experience. Sit back, enjoy it. Um, and they do, like, they all enjoy it. Um, at first, 

Todd: well, and the movie’s called The Menu and, you know, just like, uh, with music, the album, like, I don’t know, I think nowadays not as much thought is often put into, you know, how you lay out the songs on an album.

You know, which comes first, what comes right. You know, there used to be an art form to it, and I think some artists still do this, but you know, generally speaking, you got an experience that was meant to be experienced from beginning to end when you listen to say Pink Floyd or even Uhhuh. So this is the same way with these kinds of, um, High-end restaurants, right?

The idea is that this whole thing tells a story or is meant to evoke a certain experience. And so every little piece of it, none of it’s by accident. The whole menu from beginning to end, you’re supposed to eat all the way through and experience it and you know, it’s art. I, 

Craig: well, I was, it is, I hesitate to say this because I do know that people are, you know, passionate about their art and I, I, I am impressed with the culinary arts, but like the first course is the island and, you know, he announces it and he describes it.

And like you said, you know, text comes up on the screen, you know, and, and fancy script that, uh, describes what it is. It’s funny. Um, but the island. A single scallop served on a pile of rocks with like, with like seaweed and flowers, like delicately placed all around with tweezers. Does, yeah. Does it look beautiful?

Yeah. Is it stupid? Mm-hmm. Like just, yeah, it’s really dumb. Give me a pan of scallops, please. 

Todd: Right. At least more than once. You know, it’s funny, I actually w worked very closely, uh, in my previous job before I, I went solo. I was working in a marketing, uh, marketing with the guy who, and he was the head of the sales and he’s French.

And, uh, he invited me over to his house for dinner and I made this joke about how, oh, what are we gonna like eat like one scallop on a spoon and all that stuff. And he laughed. He said, I don’t know. He says, me and all of my friends joke about why is French cuisine portrayed in shows as being this like meal that you’re gonna leave starving when you’re done?

Because it’s absolutely not like that In France. He’s like, we eat for three hours and we have tons of food on the table. And sure enough, when I went to his house for his birthday, he actually had a, a friend of his, which just a French chef and cooked. And I’d never eaten so much food in my life. I could, I could barely force it down by the end of the evening, only because it had been like three hours, spread out.

Over three hours. Like, you know, you can drink a little bit more if you spread it out over a few hours. Uhhuh. Oh yeah. So, uh, I think it’s even funny how like the reality of the way we eat gets a little twisted by these shows and these kind of experiences. Like there are probably people who assume that, oh, there are people who regularly eat this way all the time, or there are people who, this is the only kind of restaurant they go to, or that these restaurants exist in every city.

You know, that kind of thing. But I don’t, I don’t think that’s true. I think this is very much on the edges of, uh, the culinary world, you know, most. 

Craig: Yeah, and don’t get me wrong. If I had the opportunity, like I don’t have the money, it’d be fun if, if the opportunity arose, I would totally do it. Like, yeah, me too.

Yeah, I think it would be super cool. I love that kind of stuff. I love, I, I would super enjoy sitting there and watching them work in the kitchen. Like that would be fascinating to me, so. Mm-hmm. I get it. But it’s, it’s, oh God, it’s so 

Todd: pretentious. It’s, it’s very pretentious. Good evening. Good evening. Good 

Craig: evening.

Hello. Hello. 

Todd: Welcome to Hawthorne. I’m Julian Slow, and tonight it’ll be our pleasure to feed you. The curtain rises. Over the next few hours you will ingest fat, salt. Sugar, protein, bacteria, fungi, various plants and animals, and at times entire ecosystems. But I have to beg of you one thing. It’s just one.

Do not eat. 

Craig: Taste, 

Todd: savor, relish. Consider every morsel that you place inside your mouth. Be mindful, but do not eat. Our menu is too precious for that. And look around. Here we are on this island, except accept all of it and forgive. And on that note, 

Craig: food, what? Get out of me. These people like that is ridiculous.

And then, and then he goes on like, this is a long speech. It’s true. He ends up saying something like, what happens inside this room is meaningless compared to what happens outside in nature. And it cuts to Margot’s face. And she has kind of a smirk, like I think that she’s thinking the same thing that we are.

Like, this guy is such a douche. Mm-hmm. Uh, and she, she hears something behind her and she turns, and Tyler is. Weeping. 

Todd: Yes. He’s literally crying. Tyler is the one guy in this room that has bought into everything so hook, line, and sinker. So it’s hilarious. 

Craig: Oh, he is so into 

Todd: it. You wanna hate this? Oh my God.

He’s set up from the beginning to be the guy you hate, you know? Oh yeah. And that’s also quite clever, right? Because then you turns out he might be the scummiest of the guests in there, so, and he’s kind 

Craig: of rude to her. I guess that doesn’t come for a minute. The, the next course is, um, the bread course. And this part is crazy too.

He gives a long speech about bread, but mostly it’s about how like bread is common, people, food. Like it’s been, you know, the source of nutrients for the common people for all this time. So you don’t get. 

Todd: You’re uncommon 

Craig: people. Yeah. Yeah. You’re not common people, so you don’t get bread, you just get the Accuc.

Mots. And so he serves them like a Bob Ross paint palette of like little teeny tiny dollops of like sauce. Yeah. 

Todd: Just different like olive oil and herbs and some kind of like, yeah, pat, whatever like that. And all these things. And it’s the food critic who looks at one of the, it’s like, you know, she’s like examining it like really closely and really carefully cuz you know, she’s the one who’s always remarking to her, uh, cohort there.

She’s super critical about it. And she mentions that the emulsion is broken in one of the sauces. And, uh, somebody overhears her say that. And so then one of the chefs serves her a giant bowl Yeah. Of broken emulsions. Huge. It’s the. It’s the first time we see something like overtly aggressive happening, uh, uhhuh in this kitchen.

But it’s, it’s a bit of a shocker, right? Well, th 

Craig: that’s, that’s kind of the first thing. But then at the Tyler, by the way, is loving it. He just thinks it’s genius. And, and Margot says to him, you know, that he’s basically insulting you, right? Mm-hmm. And it just goes completely over his head. You know, watching this, the first time, nothing seemed out of place or out of sorts, nothing blatantly felt like, oh, there’s a double meaning right to this.

Right. But in watching it a second time, it’s so cleverly written. It is because things, things can be, once, you know, Things that are revealed later. Going back, you can hear, you hear lines in different ways. That’s right. Which I, I think I, it’s a good movie. Like it’s, it’s really well 

Todd: done. And I like the dude, bro, guys who are totally above this.

Yes. Even though they’ve paid for this, they’re like gonna be assholes. Like, we’re above this as well. And they call for bread. He’s like, excuse me. Is everything 

Craig: to your liking, sir? Oh, well, actually no. Thanks for 

Todd: asking. Um, I mean, look, the food’s great and we totally get all the conceptual stuff, but could we please get a little bread, you know, and some gluten free for my friend as well?

No, 

Craig: no, no. Okay. 

Todd: This is all 

Craig: very clever and I, I didn’t want to pull this card, but you know who we are, right? Yes, you do. You know who we are. I know who you are. Mm-hmm. 

Todd: You know, we work with Doug Barrack, right? No, you work for Mr. Barrack. Exactly. And so, you know, we all play on the same teams. 

Craig: And just 

Todd: flip us a little bread, please.

We won’t tell the 

Craig: soul lady, I promise. Okay. No, this is weird 

Todd: confession. Ah, did you say no? 

Craig: I said no. Yes. Okay. Okay. Wow. 

Todd: Okay. That’ll be all though. Thanks. Elsa leans over into them and says, you’ll eat less than you desire and more than you deserve. And then walks away. Yeah. And just 

Craig: walks away. Like, she is so ominous.

I love her. She’s so cool. They call her over and she walks over. Very professional and, you know, how can I help you gentlemen? And they’re like, uh, can we have some bread? No. And they’re like, did you say no? Yes. So we’re not gonna eat bread. No. Right? Like, she’s just so matter of fact about it. And then she’s, she’s funny about it later.

I don’t, I don’t know how best to continue through this cuz there’s like, Eight courses or something. 

Todd: Yeah. We can’t, we can’t talk, talk about the whole thing. Right. And 

Craig: we learn little things. I think we’re just gonna have to start talking about the things that we learn as we go along, but, 

Todd: well, there’s an old lady in the corner.

There’s 

Craig: an old lady in the corner, and we find out who she is on one of the courses. I don’t remember what course it is, but the chef tells this story about, it’s about memories or something. Mm-hmm. He’s like, one of my favorite memories, uh, is of Taco Tuesday when I was a kid, every Tuesday was Taco Tuesday, and my mom would make tacos.

Um, but one day, one day my dad came home drunk, which he always did, but he was especially drunk and I don’t know, he says he got violent or something. So, He, the chef as a little kid stabbed his dad in the thigh. In the thigh with kitchen scissors. So then he ser well the dad had tried to strangle the mom with a phone cord, so he then serves them a dish that’s a curled up foam cord with a chicken thigh, with scissors stabbed into it.

Right. But we find out that old woman who’s been sitting in the corner quietly, she doesn’t say a word through the whole movie, that’s his mother. Uh, and she’s getting drunk. Oh. But I feel like there was something else. Oh, taco Tuesday. So they’re also served tortillas and he says, this is the very first time we’ve used this laser etching machine to, to personalize all of your tortillas.

And they arrive. And they are all very personal and they do reveal things, which we should talk about. But one of my favorite things is the dude bros call Elsa over again and are like, what is this? She’s like, those are tortillas. They’re like, what? They are tortillas del also.

Todd: She is totally making fun of them. It’s hilarious. 

Craig: Oh my god. It’s hilarious. But the tortillas reveal things. Um, Tylers are etchings of him, like photorealistic etchings of him taking pictures of the food. Um, the elderly couple, um, it’s mostly pictures of them, but there is one picture of. The husband with another woman dining, I believe with another woman, a younger woman.

Mm-hmm. The dude bros. There’s some like, uh, I don’t know, bank forms or something. Or books or something. Yeah. Uhhuh that shows that they’ve been embezzling or something like that. 

Todd: John, like Zamo, this is is like an image of a movie he was in like called Calling Doctor. Doctor. Yeah. Something around Sunshine.

Sunshine, yeah. And it was, you get the impression as he’s talking about, as it was a pretty bad movie he was in. 

Craig: Yeah. But I think that part’s funny cuz he’s like, he’s, see, he’s proud of it. Like, he’s like, ah, doctor Snapchat. Um, so basically what we find out is that they all have secrets. That’s finally, then there’s a new course which is somebody’s mess.

Do you remember? Or it’s called The Mess. 

Todd: It’s called The Mess. Yeah. Jeremy. They, the next dish is Jeremy’s as 

Craig: as a viewing audience. And knowing kind of what kind of movie you’re getting into, you absolutely have it’s 100% clear what’s going to happen because they start laying out tarps, like clear plastic tarps on the floor.

They pull clear plastic drapes behind the kitchen, and the chef and this young chef are standing on this. I don’t even know. Like I, I’m not sure I get the point. 

Todd: This is the part that bothered me. Um, just the idea of it. Obviously I know it’s a movie, obviously I know they’re trying to make a point and to be funny or whatever, but like basically he stands there and the chef walks around him and says, Jeremy has always wanted to cook with me ever since he was a little kid.

He finally got his chance and he came here to the kitchen and he was able to work with me cuz he wants to be as good as me, but he’s never, you’re never going to be as good as me, are you? You’re always gonna be a lousy cook. You’re never gonna get any better, blah, blah, blah. Right. And as he’s saying this to Jeremy, Jeremy’s just like, you know, a soldier at attention.

Yes, chef. Yes, chef. Right. But also he starts crying and he says, this is Jeremy’s own dish of his own design the mess. And then Jeremy pulls out a gun and shoots himself in the mouth. That was stark and 

Craig: Right. And it’s, I like, because he can never. Achieve what he dreams to achieve. I guess just end it 

Todd: like, well, I think that, you know, he’s got a little cult thing going here, right?

I mean Oh, totally. So, 

Craig: you know, because as it comes down to it, they are there to punish all of these people. They, uh, are gonna feed them all, and then they’re all going to die there. Not just the guests, but the staff too. And the staff is a hundred percent on board. Yeah. Like, they’re just to, 

Todd: they’re. And this is, this is, I think this is the point.

Like I said, look, it’s a movie. It’s fine. And it’s a comedy. It’s a very black comedy. And this is the part where it kind of crossed into this territory that made me personally and just emotionally feel uncomfortable is this, this kind of shit happens, right? This is like Jonestown. This is like Waco. This is like, uh, you know, really disturbing religious cults that do terrible things to children.

Like people get on board with crazy stuff because they have a crazy guy. And I guess we might as well say this guy basically. Obviously he’s disturbed, but he’s reached this point in his career where he feels like, um, nobody appreciates the food anymore. Um, nobody appreciates what he’s doing. People don’t taste right.

They don’t taste, they just eat. And he’s got a, he’s got a whole long list of grievances and he just thinks they’re all the problem. He, he’s got a beef with his angel investor. He’s got a beef with, you know, the, the industry as a whole. And these rich people who he says are takers, right? Whereas he is a giver.

So he’s like, we’re the givers. You are the takers, almost Like these people are insatiable and nothing, he’s constantly being criticized. Nothing is ever gonna be good enough for them, and they’re just continually demanding. So that’s why he’s gonna kill himself and everybody else there. Is it kind of final act of revenge?

I 

Craig: know, and it like, uh, it’s, it’s pretty convoluted. It makes more, like, it makes more sense in the, in the context of the movie, right? Like when you watch the movie, 

Todd: everything’s doled out in a way that you know is palatable. Thank you. 

Craig: It is. But, and I get what he’s, you know, high concept. I get what he’s going at with the, the givers and the takers and how, you know, the people who take, the only people who c who can, who have access to his food are people who don’t even really appreciate it.

And because of that, he has lost his passion. Passion, yeah. He, he’s, he’s lost his desire to help people or to serve people. And that’s why he’s drawn to Margot. He knows right away that she’s out of place. Well, first of all, Elsa tells him that she’s not the right person, but he can just sense something about her, uh, in the way that she stands up to Tyler in the way that, um, she refuses to eat, uh, some things if she doesn’t want to, even though he insists and so much comes to light.

Uh, but basically, Comes to is he pulls her in the back and he is like, you’re not one of 

Todd: them. I recognize a member of the service industry when I see 

Craig: one. Right. Uh, exactly. And as it, it turns out she’s an escort. And again, when you go back and look at the interactions between her and Tyler, it makes sense.

It no longer looks like a relationship. Mm-hmm. It looks like an a transaction. Um, and, and everything that they say supports that. I mean, it’s just so cleverly done. One of her clients had been the elderly gentleman and there’s a whole messed up, sad story there. No time for it, but yeah. Um, he asks her, do you enjoy.

Serving your customers. And she says, I used to. And so they have this kinship and that, you know, they’re both givers. They both live to serve, but, um, they’ve lost their passion 

Todd: for it. And he says she needs to make a decision by a certain time. He sets a, an actual like egg time or whatever, and says, you need to make a decision eventually whether you’re going to join us on the giving side or stay there on the taking side.

And so 

Craig: much happens. Yeah. The, the, the old merry guy tries to leave and they cut off his finger. And, um, one of the, for one of the courses, they take them all outside and make the men run and they. Chase them. And 

Todd: the thing that I’m thinking about at this point in the movie is actually called out, which is again, why I think this movie is so cleverly written, is because I felt like it was always one step ahead of me and even anticipating what I as a viewer was going to think and then answering it in a satisfactory way.

You know? And one of the things I’m thinking, look, she’s the only one who is, you know, just like completely not on board. He, you know, as soon as this guy shoots his, him, kills himself in front of everybody, they are all suitably. This isn’t such a parody that everyone goes and Oh, jolly good show. You know, like they all think this is effed up and many of them try to leave like the old guy.

But yeah, they all sort of, he’s like very sort of convinced like, everybody sit down, don’t worry. This is part of the menu. This is all part of the menu. And the, you parse it through the what the, what the critic was saying earlier and what she kind of says in order to calm herself down as well as her compatriot.

Like, look, there’s probably, it’s probably just fake. Like this is, you know what he does? He puts on a performance, right? Right. This is part of the performance that’s all meant to evoke this emotion. Well, she’s right, but this is very real. What’s happening to them. And you have to be stupid to not see that at some point, if you’re in this situation as he hangs as an angel investor outside and dips them in the water, all this crazy shit happens.

And these people, more or less, Go along with it. They’re not happy about it, but they, they are putting up their own barriers, you know what I mean? It’s like, it’s like their 

Craig: own, there are heavies, like there are a few big, they’re blocking ’em and stuff. Yeah. Like blocking the doors and stuff, but, but, The chef even calls this out later.

This is what 

Todd: I’m getting to. Yeah, yeah. She runs out, he gives her like, um, an errand to run. So she goes out to run the errand, but she secretly goes to the chef’s house, which they clearly anticipated cuz there’s somebody watching her. But anyway, um, and she runs across an old room of his, uh, looks like kind of dressed up like very sparsely, but maybe with trinkets and things from his childhood.

She sees a picture of him serving a burger when he was like 16. It says like, my first job was something. Yeah. He was employee of. Yeah, employee the month at just a burger flipping place. And then she finds a CB radio, which she calls because they don’t have cell phone service on the island, but she uses a CB to call for help.

And sure enough, a boat comes by and you can see it through the window cuz they all have a view of the water. And the chef says to all of them, you’ll be tempted to ask him for help to plead even this would be unwise. He cannot help you. Ask yourselves two things. One, if you really want to be responsible for the death of an innocent man, and two, ask yourselves this entire evening, why didn’t you all try harder to fight back, to get out of here?

Honestly, you probably could have something to think about. And that’s, that’s exactly what I was thinking. But you know what I mean. It’s like there was just such a. They didn’t want to be rude. They wanted to think the best, and this is how people get lured into doing things or being party to things, uh, or not opposing things that when in hindsight like.

Were you stupid? But this happens like, to people, it’s like cult typing. Oh, it would happen to me. It’s life. It would happen to me too. You know? And so this is the bit of the movie that just like I was thinking about for quite a while, as much as this is a parody and as absurd as it kind of is, there is that aspect of it that’s, uh, you know, it’s not actually that far out of the realm of possibility given the right circumstances.

That’s true. And so, yeah. And then, so then going back to that guy’s suicide, like, that just fucking bothered me. I’m sorry. I just like had a hard time sleeping. Just thinking about the idea of it. Yeah, 

Craig: I get what you’re saying. I, I don’t, I don’t know. Maybe, maybe the, uh, I don’t know what the, I wanna say like, the ridiculousness, it’s not that ridiculous, like it is within the realm of possibilities and these types of things do happen.

I, I get what you’re saying. I just think for me, it was far enough removed from reality, right? The, I, I don’t know, whatever reason it didn’t bother me as much. One of the, okay, so when it comes down to it at the very end, I don’t remember what she chooses, but he ultimately decides like, no, you’re one of them.

You know, go out, it’s time for the final course or something. And she objects and says, I don’t like your food. 

Todd: I don’t like your food, and I’m still hungry. Yeah. 

Craig: Uh, I don’t like your food and I’d like to send it back. You’ve taken the joy out of eating. Every dish has been an intellectual exercise, not something you wanna sit and enjoy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You’ve failed and you’ve bored me in the worst part. It is. I’m still hungry.

Todd: It’s really smart, actually. 

Craig: Really smart. Smart. It’s genius. And then he is like, well, you’re, he’s like, you’re still hungry. Well, what do you. And she’s like, what do you have? He’s like, we have everything. And she says, I want a cheeseburger and a real cheeseburger. Not some fancy deconstructed 

Todd: bullshit. Oh, and this is where Ralph finds is such a good actor.

Like you just see this like very subtle light come on behind his eyes. Like, like this is something that he’s been waiting for his whole life. You know, for somebody to ask him for a cheeseburger, cuz he, he looks at her and suddenly it’s just, again, it’s very subtle acting. But, and then he goes, I will make you the best cheeseburger that you’ve ever eaten.

Uhhuh. And he goes, and God, it looked like the best cheeseburger. Well, the way, well see, that’s the 

Craig: thing. The way that it’s, because it’s filmed the same way that they have filmed the construction of every other dish. Yeah. And when you film something like that, it looks beautiful. And I think that’s kind of part of the point, you know, like, I think that’s part of.

The point that they’re trying to make. Yeah. But he does, he makes her this gorgeous diner style cheeseburger with like grilled onion and American cheese. Cuz she specifically asked for American cheese and he’s like, American cheese is the best cheese for a cheeseburger. 

Todd: That’s exactly, it’s like, it’s like cheese under a spell at this point.

It’s so cute. I love it. I love it. 

Craig: But even that I think is, you know, kind of com American cheeses, you know, everybody, the whole world looks down their nose of American cheese, which is fair cuz it’s really not even cheese, but it is mighty good on a cheeseburger. Oh, it’s 

Todd: perfect. It really is true. I mean, there’s no better cheese, 

Craig: but I think that’s kind of the point.

Like, you know, he. As, as fancy as he is, the true artist in him knows that American cheese is the best. 

Todd: Right? And that cheeseburger’s amazing. And he 

Craig: serves it to her and she takes a bite of it. She’s like, Hmm, that’s a cheeseburger.

It’s great. But she’s like, but yeah, 

Todd: I think my eyes were a little bigger than my stomach. Can you wrap this up to go? And so she’s got this little loophole and this is maybe where, this is where I’ve seen some people are critical of the ending cuz they think it’s almost too clever. I don’t, I disagree. I think the whole movie was, was mining this.

So I didn’t have a problem with the ending at all. In fact, I thought it was, it was very clever. I think 

Craig: it’s very clever because I think that in the context of the movie, we’re supposed to believe that she genuinely touched something in him. Yes. And she reminded him. Of the passion that he felt for serving people food that they actually enjoyed and, and yeah.

And I think that either he was rewarding her for being clever or she earned her exit. Yeah. You know, like, I feel like, yeah, she gets it all right. You can go. And, and I thought that it was really cool that she walks out and she has a moment of pause where she looks back because she realizes that everybody else is, she hasn’t, she hasn’t freed anybody but herself.

Todd: They’re all gonna flame up in a giant s’mores party. And they 

Craig: all, they all kind of look at her like, It’s cool. Yeah, right. They’re like, good for it, girl. And the, uh, yeah, the, the older lady, Judith Light even, you know, kind of waves her out, like, like go, go. Um, and she does, and she goes away on a boat and they start the last course, which is, uh, s’mores that they pour all over the floor and drape all over the guests who just sit there.

Now, this is one of the weird parts, like it almost seemed like they accepted their fate, like yeah. Mm-hmm. He’s. We all deserve, we should definitely just burn 

Todd: up. No, I mean, it’s definitely a movie, you know, at this point. Like, I mean, it’s, it’s a metaphor, it’s a whatever. It’s making it social commentary, you know, these, I didn’t expect this to be realistic, you know, cuz Right.

So I, I, I give it a pass for this 

Craig: and she sits on the boat watching the island burn, eating her leftover cheeseburger, and then that’s the end of the movie. And I thought that it was a very satisfying ending. And, you know, watching the, you know, they’re wearing like chocolate caps and watching the chocolate meltdown over their faces as the flames surround them.

It, it looked really cool and it was, yeah. Uh, a neat ending and I liked that. But I was, two things bothered. First of all, we didn’t talk about the fact that Tyler knew all along Yes. That they were all going to die. Yes. And so he paid an escort to join him knowing that she would die. Yes. 

Todd: That’s why he’s the biggest douche.

Craig: Yeah. And obviously the chef doesn’t like that because he humiliates Tyler and convinces him to kill himself. 

Todd: Well, that was my favorite part of the movie, by the way. Yeah. I laughed out loud. I, I must have laughed for a good, solid five minutes. Poor, poor Tyler. The chef picks him up and he’s like, you, you know, you know all about food, don’t you?

You’re a real foodie, aren’t you? Like, you know, you’ve watched all the shows, you understand you’ve studied me and all that. And he, he puts him in a chef’s outfit and you see Tyler like, like, this is the best thing that’s ever happened to him on his life. And he says, I’m gonna write your name on it. Even pulls out like a Sharpie, writes Tyler on it, you know, in this janky way.

And he says, Tyler’s going to give us a cooking demonstration. Come into the kitchen, Tyler, we’re all curious to see all of your technique. And so he forces everybody to wander around him. And Tyler is just flipping out. He’s like, oh. Oh, okay. And he just like grabs a thing of lamb. He’s like, what do you need, Tyler?

What do you need? Uh, uh, lamb. Okay. Okay. Give him some lamb. But we’ve got everything. Tyler, what else do you need? Uh, some garlic or whatever. He’s like, oh, shallots. Okay. And then as he’s looking over it, Tyler, who doesn’t know what the he’s doing. Yeah. Sitting there, he’s like, oh, very interesting, innovative way of cutting shallots.

I’ve never seen this before. Tyler, thanks for teaching that to us. And then what’s done is like undercooked thing, and it’s, it’s gross. Yeah. It’s so gross. And it’s, I laughed so hard at this bit because you hate Tyler, right? All the way through this, like you say at this bef by this point you’ve learned that he deliberately brought her on.

Now you kind of know why. It’s not just because he’s bought into everything the chef’s saying, but he knows they’re, he’s the only person there who knows they’re all gonna die. So like, He’s just gonna eat and eat and eat and take the pictures and do whatever. But why explanation? Why is he taking pictures?

Yeah. The pictures thing is weird, right? Like, why would he do that? That doesn’t make any 

Craig: sense. You’re gonna be dead at the 

Todd: end. Like, I just thought it was probably just his habit. Right? This is, this guy 

Craig: does this all the time. Yeah. Excessive kinda can’t, I mean, he, there’s, there’s clearly something wrong with him.

Like, oh yeah, he’s, he’s not right in the head. That, that bothered me a little bit, that he was taking pictures. The other thing that bothered me is I don’t think that all of those people deserve to die now. Yeah. 

Todd: Well they, they kind of call that out too though, and make fun of it. Well, right. 

Craig: The. The assistant, the, the movie star’s assistant, her only sin was graduating from college without, without student loan debt.

That was her only sin. Yeah. That was 

Todd: hilarious. I guess. I mean, this is where it just got silly. It was just a joke though. He goes to John Leguizamo and he says, you, you were in that movie, you know, you did that movie calling Dr. Sunshine. And on my one day off from work when I needed nothing more than rest, I watched that movie and it was terrible.

So this is why you’re dying. And then the assistant pipes up and yeah, he’s like, well, where’d you go to college? Brown student loans? No, you’re dying too. 

Craig: And I, I, I guess Judith Light was, you know, rich and unappreciative, but it’s not like she cheated or anything, you know? I don’t 

Todd: know. You’re right. It doesn’t all track.

Some of it’s just there just to be funny for sure. Right. And 

Craig: that’s fine because overall, I really, really liked this movie. Oh God. I was really looking. I was, I was super looking forward to it, and I was not disappointed. Um, Alan watched it with me. He found it very interesting, offered to watch it with me again.

Mm-hmm. Uh, for the 

Todd: podcast, I have at least two friends. I wanna show this too. I, I 

Craig: would argue that it is a horror movie. There’s some violence and things and that, and, and things that we glossed over that we didn’t mention at all. Like, there’s a big fight, uh, between Elsa and um, Mar. Uh, a very bloody violent fight.

There’s so much plot, it’s very plot driven. It’s very character driven, so it, we can’t do it justice at all. Even on a second viewing, you pick up on so much more. Um, it’s just, it’s a very good movie. I would very much recommend it. And I think that even people who are not necessarily big time horror fans, uh, might still like it.

Todd: I think it’s good because I think this captures a little bit of the cultural zeitgeist. Like, I think by now most all of us are familiar with this scene because these f movies, these shows are so popular on television. You know what I mean? I, I just think at all levels. Uh, that’s why I just, I watched it.

I loved it. I was like, this movie I felt like was kind of made for me and absolutely. Is horror. Is anybody saying it’s not horror? God? Oh, I don’t know. Yeah. I 

Craig: mean, it’s just, I mean, 

Todd: it’s like cult type. 

Craig: I don’t, yeah, I guess I don’t know why I feel the need to defend it on that level because it is, it is.

Todd: Horror. Well, it was nice coming into it, not knowing much about it at all. Like I didn’t Yeah, yeah, man. So much to unpack here. It’s too bad we don’t have that much time. Yeah. It was a good time. Well, thank you again, Craig, for, uh, suggesting this, and, uh, thank you guys for listening to us tuning in another week.

If you enjoyed this podcast, please share with a friend. If there’s a movie you would like us to do, please uh, go online and just Google “two guys and a chainsaw podcast”. You can find us on any one of our social media areas, or, uh, you can join our patrons, uh, patreon.com/chainsaw podcast and, uh, get some extra features, couple minisodes every month and influence of the requests that we do.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week, we discovered our new favorite movie. Not because it’s good, and not even because it’s bad. The Manitou falls into that rare space in-between, where it’s so well-done and sincerely committed to its wack-a-doodle premise from start to finish that we giddily enjoyed every bizarre, jaw-dropping moment. Where was this Tony Curtis flick all our lives? Why had we not heard of it before? Enjoy your introduction, loyal listeners, and PLEASE let us know your thoughts as well!

The Manitou (1978)

Episode 341, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Oh, Craig. Craig. Craig. Craig. What did we just watch?

Craig: I don’t know, but I hope you have all day because that’s how long I want to talk about it. 

Todd: We could talk about it forever. Oh my word. Okay. So I don’t even know, I’m just gonna jump into this.

Yeah. Uh, Craig chose the 1978 American supernatural body horror film, The Manitou Starring of all people, Tony Curtis, and Susan Strasberg. I’ve never seen this before. I feel like I’ve heard of it. I feel like it’s on some lists, but it wasn’t really on my radar. So, no, it’s my first time seeing it and I’m glad I did.

Mm-hmm. What about you, Craig? Uh, why did you choose this for this week? 

Craig: I don’t know. This isn’t the type of movie I usually watch, but I was looking for something to watch just for myself, and I went to Shutter and I was just scrolling through like. What’s new? And this popped up and I had never heard of it before.

I am almost positive. I’ve had no idea that this movie existed. So I clicked on it and I read the blurb, which was really short, but kind of intriguing. So I went to, I scrolled down to the, uh, viewer reviews. And I really usually like the viewer reviews on shutter because they’re brief and they don’t usually spoil things like people are polite and don’t spoil things, but people were like, Watch this movie.

Todd: Just do it and thank you later.

Craig: It was, uh, it, it was wild. 

Todd: You know, I don’t think we’ve, I don’t wanna say we haven’t seen a movie like this. We’ve seen some pretty wild stuff in the last few years of doing this, but nothing quite like this. This is really out there. I would almost liken it a little bit to altered states. Have you seen Altered States?

Uh, I don. It’s a starts out kind of sci-fi and um, really intriguing, and then it goes into just whackadoodle, campy territory. And you’re like, what movie did this become? But with Altered States, it’s just supposed to be a trippy movie. Anyway, this movie seems like it’s taking itself seriously. Mm-hmm. But then it plays like a parody almost.

Like, so much of it is unbelievable. I just watch the movie before we talk about it. Yeah. Oh, 

Craig: oh. Don’t, don’t listen to this first. Watch it because it’s so much better. I only kind of knew, vaguely, vaguely what it was about, and I wish that I hadn’t even known that. Just, just trust us. Turn it off. Watch it come back.

All right. Welcome back. 

Todd: Welcome back friends. 

Craig: I see what you’re saying because it’s just, Weird, but it doesn’t feel like parody, I guess, because they are taking it seriously. I don’t know. The movie is just so bizarre. Like it’s bizarre tonally. At first I thought that I was kind of maybe watching like a 1930s.

Farce, like mm-hmm. Like I, Tony Curtis in the beginning, and there’s so much story. I took 400 pages of notes on this movie because 

Todd: I gave up. I just, I went, I went to the Wikipedia. I went to the Wikipedia page, and I realized that the plot summary of this is like two pages long. So I’m like, okay, I’m just gonna refer to that while we talk because oh my God, the story goes all over the 

Craig: place and it’s crazy.

And it jumps right into it, and it just keeps going. But it’s like, it’s weird tonally. So the, the, the first thing that we, we meet this woman named Karen, who appears to be. The protagonist of the movie, and she’s going to the doctor because she has this new tumor on her neck that just appeared a few days ago, but it’s getting big and he like checks it out and she says, just casually, well, it, it kind of moves, sometimes it, it almost shifts as if.

Well, it’s as if someone were trying to turn over and get comfortable in bed. How often does that happen? Maybe four or five times a day. 

Todd: Okay. Doctor’s like, uh, alright, whatever. They’re, and 

Craig: they’re looking, they’re looking at the x-rays and they’re like, looks an awful lot like a fetus. Huh? Like, that’s weird.

Okay. New character. Then we move to, Harry played by Tony Curtis, and again, I guess just Tony Curtis’s popularity was waning because he was getting older, so he wasn’t getting as much work. That’s the only reason I can imagine. Can imagine why he was doing this movie. He 

Todd: is doing his best, by the way, in this movie.

I mean, he is really just, he is the straight man to all the nonsense that is happening around us, and he’s kind of the 

Craig: straight. Oh my gosh. Like I if he’s the straight man. Seriously. He is a fake mustachioed psychic who gives tarot readings to rich old ladies. Right. And he wears a cape Yes. And a fake mustache, and he dances for them.

Mm-hmm. Uh 

Todd: oh. That’s silly. I, 

Craig: I was like, what? It is silly. I, but I didn’t understand. I’m like, what movie is this? Is it a comedy? Right? I’m fine with it if it’s a comedy. I just didn’t know it was going to be, but then it’s really not like, no, I’m gonna talk about this movie. Like, I’m criticizing it. I’m not.

I loved it. Like I loved it, loved it. Like I was a little concerned for the first. Uh, third, maybe even almost up to half. But once it got to the seance, In this, like this is my kind of movie. 

Todd: I was so in. Hey hun. Oh my God, what is going on here? Oh my word. This is nuts. God, I, you know, like he’s, he is a psychic, fake psychic.

It makes no difference to the plot of the movie at all. 

Craig: No, it doesn’t make any difference. It’s just character building, I guess. But like he’s a fake psychic, except. I guess now his tarot readings are actually working. Mm-hmm. Well, it’s because it turns out he and Karen used to date and she calls them, it’s like, I know it’s been a long time, but I really need you.

And he’s like, okay. So they go to China. And walk around the gardens for a while, but they immediately are back together. 

Todd: Fall back in love, 

Craig: I guess. Yeah. This very night they end up back at his house, I guess, in bathrobes. Like just the lounging around in 

Todd: bathrobes as you used to do in the, you know, 1978, I guess.

And while she’s sleeping, she’s uttering some phrase, it’s pna. Oh, even the phrase is stupid. Pna witchy, solitude. It sounds this witch in it. Oh God.

Oh God, which upsets him a bit. Uh, this becomes, this becomes a major point of the movie, is that he just needs to know what this means and why she was saying it. Uhhuh and he investigates all over the years. He 

Craig: asks everybody he runs into on the street if they know what that means, 

Todd: p which she salva. And the funny thing is, as half the people that he says it to turn around and go wait a.

What did you just say? As though it’s meaningful to them, but they’re too afraid to tell him why. Oh, it’s it. 

Craig: So it’s becomes the story of this couple just attending to her medical needs for a while. Right. But it just so happens that it is, Like a freaking fetus in there. Like, and, and when the, when they are gonna try to cut it out and there’s like a cer like, you know, we’re, we’re witnessing the surgery and when the doctor goes to cut it, she opens her eyes chance, and the doctor like, is psychically forced.

To cut himself Uhhuh. Okay folks, this is when things start getting weird like that. Everything that we’ve talked about so far, that is nothing. That is a day in the park. This is where things start getting weird. Yes. When he, when when the guy gives a tarot 

Todd: reading Yes to Mrs. Hertz. Oh my 

Craig: God, I don’t even 

Todd: know what’s happening.

This old lady, Mrs. Hertz comes in and I sh I, I was like, okay, well this is, she’s the comic relief or something. Cuz she’s this kind of like silly, flustered old lady who sits down, won’t even sit at the table with him, just sits in a, in a chair in the other room while he reads the cards to her and he’s doing the reading.

And I guess it’s. Kind of bad it has, like, cuz I think of, obviously, you know, with these, with these psychics and things like that, they’re always telling you things that make you feel good. And so, right, he’s pulling up these cards and he’s trying to make ’em her feel good like he normally does. And he’s really overdoing it, but it keeps coming up bad.

So he’s like, oh, lemme just do that again. Oh, lemme just do that again. And as she’s watching, suddenly her face just kind of goes w bug-eyed. Her mouth opens, she starts. Chanting stuff get stiff and then stands right up. This older woman who needed help into the seat, Uhhuh stands right up. He’s like, oh, well, uh, let me help you.

Uh, whatever. She pushes past him, goes out into the hallway and then floats levitates down the hall. Down the hall while he just kind of stands there staring like, oh, this is weird. All the way to the staircase. And then I have never seen a stair fall stunt like this in my entire life. I’ve seen a lot of people in movies fall down the stairs.

This woman takes out the entire banister on the way down. Oh my gosh. Just. Her body rips through each one of those wooden, ballast, whatever you call them, like they were made of balsa wood uhhuh, 

Craig: which they probably 

Todd: were. I was like, oh my God, this is intense. Right? And he’s up at the top and I’m sorry. But then we move on to the next part of the story from here.

Like, that’s the thing, like I’m 

Craig: just flabbergasted. Like where, what, like she just, she just levitated down the hall. Like, does that just happen in this road? Because he doesn’t see, like he’s, he seems, he doesn’t even more. By the fact that she fell down the stairs, then the fact that she floated all the way down the hall.

And 

Todd: I mean, he seems almost more horrified at what she was chanting than any of that other stuff, because that’s the thing that’s got his attention and that’s the thing he keeps talking about afterwards. Oh my goodness. So back to the hospital. Back to the hospital, he and Dr. Hughes have a conversation and I just, oh man.

I wish we had the time. I could just play this entire conversation out because every conversation between Dr. Hughes and Harry in the hospital is absolutely head scratching. H. Yes. The writing is so bad and it’s so contrived and, and they’re, they’re just, they’re angry minds and they’re each, they’re stolen from other movies and oh my God, it’s so stupid.

It’s so deliciously bad and they are playing it. This is what I mean. They are both playing it with the utmost seriousness. Her condition is, 

Craig: let’s say, 

Todd: uh, stabilized at the moment, 

Craig: stabilized. Is that all you’ve got to tell me is stabilized Mr. Erskine. She’s stabilized for now. You’ll have to be satisfied with that.

What happened in the operation? It, uh, but it wasn’t successful. I, uh, I was about to remove the growth when, uh, her pulse rate rose, her respiration drops so drastically. We had to discontinue. Well, what does all that mean?

I’ve dealt with tumors for 20 years. I’m the best there is. Top of the line. I have a million dollar research facility and a couple of Cadillacs to prove it. And very honestly, Karen Tandy’s got me stumped. Stumped, yes. Without going into too much detail, uh, her tumor doesn’t have any of the usual characteristics of tumorous tissue.

What Karen has is a. A 

Todd: fast 

Craig: growing swelling made up of flesh and bone.

You might almost describe it, uh, as a fetus.

Todd: On her neck looking off into windows and walking over the books and turning around. In the meantime, there is this giant computer console that I just, you know, it’s up staging them in this room no matter what they’re saying. I just can’t keep, can’t stop thinking. Why is there this insanely huge 1970s style computer console behind this guy’s desk?

I don’t. So distracting. I’m, I grew up, I was born in 70. And I remember at that time, computers were the size of like whole buildings. Right? You remember? 

Craig: You remember what computers were like when you were born? 

Todd: No. I remember shortly thereafter. I also remember pulling out the Encyclopedia Britannica reading all about computers and seeing photos of them, but nobody had anything like this in their office.

It was so hilarious. I’m like, well, that’s clearly gonna come into play at some point. Oh. Cause if it doesn’t, oh, it does. 

Craig: No, it’s great. It totally, it totally pays off. I, I, I mean, I don’t even know, like, what else? Okay, so they keep talking about this thing, like they, they just acknowledge, oh, well it is a fetus, like, 

Todd: right.

And 

Craig: it’s, and it’s, it’s growing really fast. So that’s always kind of in the background. And, and, and Harry, Harry, like when, when Karen, I guess, is well enough to listen, he repeats that chant to her, which like causes her to like scream like a lunatic. So, so then Harry, I have her name here. I have no idea.

Who she is. Harry asks Amelia for help with Karen, and Amelia says that they need to do a seance where Karen lives. Who is this woman I know. Is this just, is this just the woman that you go to if you need a seance, like I 

Todd: don’t, I Are we talking about Amelia or, or the bigger woman who is in the scene. Oh, 

Craig: I see.

Okay. Maybe I’m mixing them up. I’m talking about the older woman. Oh, that’s not even her. That’s Mrs. Carmen. Oh gosh. I don’t know who Amelia 

Todd: is either. Amelia and her partner MacArthur have like a pirate shop. I guess they’re dressed like pirates, I guess. Sailors, old timey sailors. And they have a shop that I thought initially was supposed to be like a shop of mystical occult type things, but on the inside it’s just a bunch of fishing nets and paraphernalia from ships and things, and That’s 

Craig: hilarious.

I had completely forgotten about them because really they’re just like the Scooby gang, like they’re just there to do research like, like Yes. 

Todd: That’s the perfect way to describe it. Oh my goodness. They’re 

Craig: just around in. You need to do research and then they are right on top of that 

Todd: and they don’t really ba it’s like, oh, they almost know what he’s talking about.

He is like, I think there’s something. And he makes so many leaps of logic. You know, this is one of those movies where the characters figure out exactly what is going on. Which is the most bizarre thing that could be going on with next to no clues. It’s just suddenly, and then it’s not like, let’s call the news reporters, let’s call scientists.

Let’s call the police. It’s like, no, let’s just me treat this as a given and talk to my other friends who are also gonna treat it as a given Uhhuh. And we’re all just gonna do these silly little things to try to, I, I guess exercise. I don’t, why did they decide they needed 

Craig: a seance? I don’t know. Because Amelia said So was it cause of the, 

Todd: was it cuz of the chanting?

Did she recognize the chanting 

Craig: as being maybe, I don’t know. They still haven’t figured out. They haven’t figured out what it is yet, I don’t think. Mm-hmm. They do soon. And again, it’s just like, oh well. Yep, that’s what 

Todd: it is then. 

Craig: Um, but so, Amelia, uh, Mack, who, whatever his name is, he’s Amelia’s guy, and Mrs.

Carmen, this blonde, older lady, d 

Todd: az, which by the way, we, we have no idea who this woman is. She just suddenly shows up in the group and is led downstairs. I know. Seriously. 

Craig: I was hoping that you would’ve like I, no, I thought surely I missed something. I don’t think 

Todd: so. Okay. Maybe he’s just there all of a 

Craig: sudden.

Maybe, you know, he’s like a psychic. Maybe he knows psychics. I don’t know. But they do this seance, and I love this scene. Like, oh, oh, it was 

Todd: so good. Like, this is the best say on scene I’ve ever seen in a movie. To 

Craig: describe it as good. I don’t even, like, I, I just don’t have a better word. Like I was on the edge of my seat.

I was like, oh my God, this is the best say on, 

Todd: I was all in on this movie when this happened. Oh, so all in the, the 

Craig: spirit first starts talking through the old blonde. But then like, and that’s what I expected. I’ve seen a bunch of seances in movies. They’re always pretty much the same. You know, the, the table shakes and the wind blows, and the glasses shattered.

You know, you’ve seen it a million times and this does that. But it also goes all in like with the lighting, the like, like neon color light, yes. And they’re like lit from down low so that you know, the shadows are going up their faces and stuff. It looks, I love it. Mm-hmm. But then out of what looks like a big poker table starts to come.

I hadn’t noticed anything unusual about the table before, but when they do a closeup on it, and I’m sure that this is just special effects, but it’s as though the surface is liquid and this head starts to emerge out and the head comes all the way up to its neck and then it. The head talks to them

Todd: and they all just stare at this like, well, good. This is what we are expecting to happen. 

Craig: And then they ask what it wants and it speaks incoherently and then goes back away.

What are you looking for?

It just showed up to be, to hey. Like it didn’t, it 

Todd: didn’t, it didn’t help them tell them anything? No, no, nothing. Nothing about this helped them. No. 

Craig: That it. Awesome. I 

Todd: loved it. And then the window blows open and a storm 

Craig: and the lightning strikes and blows up the 

Todd: table, breaks it in half. They go flying around the room.

Oh man, it was insane. And then 

Craig: here. And then here is the leap. Somebody says, That head kind of reminded me of something and Karen gives me, who was it? I have somebody. One of them is like, it kinda reminded me of like a cigar store, Indian, maybe a medicine man,

Todd: and they’re like, okay, 

Craig: that’s our next, I think you’re onto something. 

Todd: This is truly Scooby-Doo. It really is. Oh, so then they go and they visit Dr. Snow, who is Burgess Meredith being so Burgess Meredith. Oh, yes. It’s 

Craig: delightful. Oh, yes. It’s just a Burgess Meredith cameo for the sake of it, like, yes, and, and, and it’s, it’s great.

Dr. Hughes called you and told you that the tumor on her neck is definitely a fe. Now all I want from you, sir, is some kind of an explanation. No, you’re talking about my book now. What I wrote in my book, pardon me, uh, was um, purely a, well, it’s not here. It was purely a legend. It was a legend about a medicine man who was reborn in, uh, 1851 in the Upper Missouri among the hidatsa.

It is a case with very little documentation, but it had to do with a young Indian girl who developed a swelling on her arms. 

Todd: I love Ver just Meredith, I love him. He’s sort of like the Robin Williams of his time. Just very much more muted. He’s just kooky and I feel like the directors just go and action, right?

Just let him do whatever the hell he wants to do. Because that’s what this scene felt like he’s going through and he’s like this aged man, but he’s like, he’s an anthropologist, I suppose, and he’s 

Craig: the exposition. Is, is what he 

Todd: is. Yes. He’s, he’s exposition man, wanders through the place and is like making comments like, oh, I really need to clean this.

Or, oh, this is dusty. Or he’s saying this very matter of factly, like, oh yeah, this can happen. You know? Mm-hmm. Um, ancient Indian medicine men, their spirits will grow within people and eventually grow to full size and be born out of them. Then he, they wander upstairs to his attic. I guess it’s his. It was almost like a whole second floor on the house, I think.

But, uh, there’s this giant cobweb across the staircase that they have to push away. No, I didn’t even notice. It’s so comical. It’s like they just walked onto the monsters set, you know? Yeah. Borrowed it for this. Can he wanders and pulls out a book and does he tell ’em about the Manitou at this point? He 

tells.

Craig: Oh, um, what’s his name? The main guy asks him about Hannah Witchy salad tooth again. Yes. And, and, and finally, burgs Meredith can tell him that Hannah Witchy salad tooth is a language of an ex. Extinct tribe, and it means my death for tells my return. Thank God we waited 45 minutes for that payoff. I don’t know that I could have waited much longer.

And 

Todd: what did they get from that? Just that, because then they’re like, well, maybe he says maybe you guys should actually go talk to an Indian medicine man. 

Craig: Yeah, like, and he just says stuff that is just so, he like, he’s like, oh yeah, well, Dr. Snow, is there any way to stop this, this medicine man, or whatever it is before it kills her?

Well, you know what? You have to understand it that the magic of ancient. Indian tribes was very, very powerful. Oh damn. It’s even worse than I 

Todd: thought it. Oh boy. And by the way, as all this is going on, I’m thinking, I’m think I’m still thinking like, what about, uh, Karen? Yeah. 

Craig: Where is she? What’s your name Is just in a hospital bed, the whole.

Movie. This poor girl. Yeah. She, she, they like, she was totally set up to be the main character and I was down, like, she seemed interesting. I was interested in her weird tumor baby situation, but then she is, she’s just, she’s just gone. She’s face down. On Naked in a bed for the whole 

Todd: movie, basically alone in a room with just maybe one nurse attending him with this woman, with this giant baby, apparently throwing her 

Craig: back.

They keep showing like closeups of just like her. Back it covered with like a hospital blanket, thin blanket and the, it just keeps getting bigger. Like the lump on her back just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Uhhuh Oh, it’s about to get so good. Oh man. What, what do they do then? They go meet John singing rock an an actual medicine man played by not an Amer Native American.

Todd: Ah-huh. Michael 

Craig: Ansara. Yeah. And I read about this guy and he actually, uh, was concerned with representation and. There was at least one time that I remember that he turned down a role because he heard that it an, an actual Native American had been turned down for it or something like that. It was a different time.

I, I, you 

Todd: know, like, well, good for him for being a little more progressive and realizing, cuz most other people didn’t give 

Craig: a shit. Well, right. And who knows. I read that bit of trivia somewhere. I, I was just curious. Interested to know if he was actually a Native American man. I don’t know if it’s makeup or a wig or what.

He looks Native American or he, he doesn’t look Caucasian. 

Todd: Anyway. Yeah, it’s a decent enough, uh, approximation, I suppose, to not be like total red face, you know? Right, right, right, right. I mean, it is red face, but. 

Craig: It doesn’t look that bad. Right. I mean, it is. So, uh, he plays this medicine man, and he’s, you know, gosh, I don’t even know at this point.

The movie is feeling to me much like Poltergeist did you get a Poltergeist feel to it, especially bringing in, you know, the Native American who’s gonna, you know, that’s true. Help out with That’s very true. And then he’s, he’s the, there’s just, he tells him all of these things, and of course, as we are hearing them, We are learning them too.

And he is like, uh, yeah, the Gik Manitou is like Indian Jesus. He only literally says 

Todd: that. 

Craig: Yeah. And there’s the Manitou and then there’s the Gik Manitou. And then it turns out that everything is Manitou. It’s including 

Todd: a gun. A gun can be a Manitou, 

Craig: machines, computers, electricity, everything. I, I was curious.

So I looked into it. The Manitou is actually an Algonquin. Tradition and it kind of is what they say it is in the movie. It’s like the essence. Everything, things, both living and, and not, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s in everything. Um, so I mean, they’re drawing on a real thing. This is based on a novel, by the way. And now I desperately want to read this book.

Yeah, me too. And it’s 10 sequels. What? 

Todd: Are you kidding me 

Craig: there? It’s a, it’s a series of 11. I have no idea. Wh what characters it follows. I have no idea how it’s connected, but yeah, it was a series of 11 books. Wow. Oh my God. Wow. So anyway, then, so then once he picks up the medicine man, they go back to the hospital where they’re gonna try to remove the tumor with a laser.

However, Kara wakes up and stands awkwardly. In the corner while the laser goes crazy and starts shooting people and cutting through walls the laser and and causing 

Todd: explosions. I love the laser scene. It’s nuts. It is just absolute pandemonium. Yeah. It’s, you know, great. The effects in this movie when they’re not like, obviously like a little bad, like you can see the seams a few times.

They’re. Like the, they’re all in on them, you know? Oh yeah. Animated effects. The lasers going everywhere. Things are exploding and stuff. It’s, 

Craig: uh, yeah. This is an effects heavy movie. It’s insane. We have not even gotten started, like, keep moving like every, every five minutes. I’m going to say you. It only gets weirder from here, and I can say that legit.

Mm-hmm. Until the last five minutes of the movie like it is bananas. It’s absolutely crazy. 

Todd: Well, Ha, Harry, uh, and John are, they’re there now. And uh, now Karen is back in the bedroom again on the bed, face down, quiet, like all these crazy, all this crazy shit can happen. And then in the next scene, everything is like back to normal and everybody’s calmly discussing what they’re gonna do next and all the time, Harry is, somebody says we should call the police.

Harry just looks at them and goes, are you crazy? Call the police and give some, I don’t even know what his excuse is. 

Craig: I don’t either. Anything, none of it makes any sense. None of it makes any sense. It’s just gonna be 

Todd: these four people dealing with it basically. 

Craig: Yeah, I, I mean, when I say none of it makes any sense, I say that a lot about movies and that’s when things like just don’t connect like.

Things do connect in this movie. There’s an explanation for everything as far-fetched and crazy as it may be. Mm-hmm. They go out of their way. To explain everything. Yes. What, what doesn’t make any sense is how the people react to these situations. Yes. As though like, it’s really not that strange, like Uhhuh man.

I mean, I mean, this sucks, but it’s, you know, like, let’s, nobody’s, nobody’s perplexed about this. Like, well, I guess that’s just the way it is. 

Todd: Oh, it’s crazy. It reminds me of like a fifties B movie. You know, some black and white fifties B movie, some sci-fi thing where these crazy sci-fi things happen and then the scientists kind of retreat to their study and pull out pipes and start casually discussing the science of it all.

There’s just these huge breaks and all these crazy action scenes where everything’s back to normal and they’re all like, wow, that was weird. I’m even more concerned than I was before. But we can’t call the police. What are we gonna do now? And what they decide to do is John is gonna kind of exercise it or try to contain this.

I mean, I guess he realizes it’s gonna be born. Right. So we gotta contain it. And of course, the doctor’s totally willing to go along with this, and he draws a circle. He’s like, all right, first we need to draw a circle of sand around the body. He draws. Not even a full circle of sand around the body. The bed is pressed up against the wall.

I guess the wall is as good as sand for this spirit. He makes this big deal. Nobody break the sand barrier. Nobody touch it. Nobody mess it up or anything. But yeah, it, it’s more of a U-shape that stops at the wall and then he talks to the spirit, I think. Studs talking and

Craig: your medicine is of no,

what is your name?

Yes,

the whites little brother from the do not help them.

What’s the man what’s.

Greatest medicine man ball. Oh, these lines are just great. Like I, I, I wrote half of the script down because every line just cracked me up. Um, and, and he, Harry, or whatever his name is, is concerned about Karen and the, the medicine man’s like, well, if I win, she lives. If I lose, she’ll experience less pain than any of us and like it just, oh, I’m going to what?

Kiss on the lips, whoever wrote this dialogue because, oh, I was dying. God, I was Seriously, I read it was 

Todd: written in three days. Oh yeah. I know, I know. I mean, it shows, it wasn’t obviously of. It wasn’t edited or revised? No, 

Craig: it’s, I, I was seriously like, you know, I was watching it on my computer, but they would say these lines and I would pause to laugh and write it down, like laugh out loud because I thought it was so funny.

But I wanted to pause cause I didn’t wanna miss it. And sometimes I would hit that like back 10 seconds button and listen to it again because they’re just so funny. Mm-hmm. And. It’s not a comedy, like it’s 

Todd: dead serious about this. Like, this is supposed to be serious. I don’t even 

Craig: serious know how to describe it cuz like, it’s not even so bad.

It’s good because I don’t even think it’s that bad. Like, no, I like it. I, but it is 

Todd: silly. It’s a goofy script that everybody just went all in. Yeah. Really. I mean, that’s what it is. It’s 

Craig: silly. It’s super goofy. It’s DCU the greatest medicine man of all. And then for some reason, Henry is out of the room for a second and he comes back and somebody’s face gets smashed through the window.

Mm-hmm. And he looks in and the Manitou is almost. Out and I am dying. Like she is rith on the bed and, and she’s naked. You know, she’s covered from the waist down by a blanket, but from the top up naked. And her skin is like a flesh colored condom. There 

Todd: you go. 

Craig: Because it’s not really even taught. Like it’s, it’s al kinda loose.

It’s gross. Mm-hmm. And like you see things moving around under there and then you see its hands and then I, honest to God, did not think that it, this was, we were gonna see this happen the an arm. Starts to come out and I, I swear to God, like I am freaking out. I am like bouncing in my chair and then it cuts away for a second and then it cuts back.

And the man who like. Flops out onto the floor and starts pulling like army crawling slithering around the floor and, and then, oh my God, it, and then it kneels and prays and. I’m there by myself and I out loud. Is that a little person? And inexplicably, it’s a little person in a little demon suit. I, yes.

Like maybe it’s not fully grown yet. Like maybe that’s just the size that the demonn comes out and it’ll get bigger later. It was just such a shock to me. I know. And, and, and the, the creature costume makeup. I love it. It’s actually pretty cool. It’s, it’s, it’s slimy and great. 

Todd: I loved it. It had that look like, um, like kind of, they, they took all that care and like the wish master to give Yes.

You know, the demons face those kind of like high cheekbones and kind of angular features. And also like, he had a couple contacts in, I suppose uhhuh, like a yellow thing and they get these closeups on his eyes a lot. Yeah. Looking left and right cuz he can cyclically, manipulate things and he, there’s the body of the.

Orderly or whatever in the corner of the room, which then gets up and comes towards them like a zombie to try to attack. You know, the funny, the other funny thing about this is, is that people are dying and they just leave their bodies there. Nobody ever runs to try to help them to see if they’re still alive.

Craig: No. And this is in 

Todd: a hospital. Yes, it’s literally in a hospital and like there has been a corpse since this man’s head went through this window. There’s been a corpse in the corner of this room for like a good hour or two that nobody has touched, except at one point the doctor had said we should put a sheet over him.

He didn’t say, we should check to see if he still has a pulse, and this is the guy who gets animated and comes towards them. Yeah, I don’t remember what happens. Do they, they just kinda like the, the, 

Craig: at the last minute somebody shoots it or something. I mean, it’s, it’s, there’s a, it’s another nerve. It’s a suspenseful, uh, moment with no real payoff.

Yeah. From this point, for this is the form. Of the Manitou, this little person in a suit, and I love it. Uh, and I looked it up and the Manitou was played by, uh, two men, two little men and I, they both have worked a lot in the types of roles that you would expect, like, uh, star Wars. One of them was a dink in, uh, space Balls.

Oh, love, love that movie. You know, when they, they di. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah. One of those guys. Yeah. And one of them, and I don’t remember which was which, but one of them was, The blob operator in weird science, which I choose to believe means that he was the guy in the Chet Shit monster. Oh. But you can look, you can look at those guys’ resumes, their I M D B profiles and they, they work all the time.

All the time. They’re still working. And I love this, like, it’s just, it was so, it was unexpected. I expected it to be. Huge. You know, like, yeah. Some giant beast bursting out of her. No, it’s just this little guy. But he’s super uber powerful and I don’t know if you wanna talk about things in sequence, but, uh, from this point things just are nuts and everything that ha from this point.

Things are nuts. Yes. Everything that happened, Just almost brought a tear to my eye.

Todd: The thing that I think is crazy is that as soon as they summon this demonn, and he stands pretty patiently, I guess, by the foot of the bed for most of the rest of the movie, although a lot of time passes. Yeah, so much time passes that eventually they leave the room for a while. And just stand down the hall and smoke some cigarettes trying to figure out yeah, what they’re gonna do next.

Or waiting for something. There’s an ancient India demon just birthed out of the back of this woman’s back caught in this chalk circle or whatever, and you J just put another orderly there to just watch the door and yawn for a while. Yeah. I just kept thinking, What about poor Karen? Have they just completely written her off?

Craig: She’s in the circle. There’s nothing they can do. 

Todd: Like, nobody even mentions this. Nobody’s like, I’m worried about Karen. I hope Karen’s okay. She’s such an afterthought. Yeah. 

Craig: Until the very, very end. This is, this is also the like, again, they go. Extreme lengths to make sure all the puzzle pieces fit, because they tell us at this point that everything has a Manitou.

Yes. Even manmade things. Mm-hmm. And so you have to be careful because the Manitou can use. Manitou to like manipulate, like police guns and stuff like that. So we know that now, um, he, he skins the orderly and then makes a lizard appear. That’s my favorite part. That’s the part that I was trying to get to.

Um, somehow the Manitou breaks the circle. Uh, like psychically and then he chance to summon a demonn, and it is a ghost lizard, and it is just like, it’s a ghost lizards, literally. It’s like, it’s just like kind of superimposed over him. Like you would have to explain, like they just, they put another film over this film, right?

Mm-hmm. Or something like, 

Todd: It, it feels like in one, in one, in one or two shots, it looked like the Peppers ghost illusion, where they were projecting it on glass in front of ’em. But then there’s clearly a composite shot with, with the, the doctor’s hand gets bit by the ghost lizard. 

Craig: Yes. And, and then they say, I don’t know what Spirit Hill summon next I, I have in my notes Manitou chance to summon demon colon.

Ghost lizard, exclamation point. This is amazing. Exclamation point.

Oh, it was so good you guys. This was the middle of the day, like I was of sound mind. I told Todd, I texted Todd. I didn’t tell him anything about the movie. I was like, bro, this is gonna be fun. After I, yeah, and I had been having a bad day, like just not a great day. One of those days where you really have to pretend even more than usual that you can tolerate people.

And then I watched this in the early afternoon. And the, and the whole rest of the day was lovely.

It made me so happy and I couldn’t wait to talk about it. Yes. Oh God. The ghost lizard. What else, what else happens? Uh, the floor that Karen is on, Turns into 

Todd: a tundra. Yeah, it becomes a winter wonderland. Yes. 

Craig: Yeah, that looks like exactly like Kirksville high school Prom, 1993, winter wonderland. Like that’s what it looks like.

Yeah. It looks so 

Todd: bad. Paper mache like ice against the walls and like big, uh, dramatic icicles from the ceiling and oh, it looks really terrible. And they spent a lot of time in there too. They 

Craig: do. I loved it. Even the nurse, the desk nurse is completely frozen. Frozen. And then the, okay, so I have, John says I tried to stop him.

I tried everything. And then what happened? What caused all his ice? It’s a demon. We called the star. Spirit of

the wave. Greater demonn. What, what, 

Todd: what are they coming from? I don’t 

Craig: even know what my notes mean. Oh, oh my God. And then, and then the frozen nurse explodes. 

Todd: Oh my God. Yes. The spirit causes like a snowstorm to blast through and it breaks the windows, takes the nurse to pieces. Her head goes through a broken window.

Her arm flies off. Oh. It’s again, nobody gives a shit, by the way, about these people. Fantastic. And then he picks up a typewriter and throws it at the guy. A 

Craig: typewriter. It’s a seventies computer. It’s the size of a hay bale. 

Todd: Well, it’s like the size of a seventies electronic typewriter is what it is. It’s hilarious.

It is. It is big and heavy, but he chucks it at him. And then it stops everything. And that’s when John patiently reminds him the electronic manitou is what got 

Craig: me. Wait, wait, wait, wait. John, John, the medicine man’s like I’ve called on every spirit and Harry says, what about Gik? And, and, and John says, Harry, No one calls on gi, you Manitou, and then Harry says, yeah, well he’s about to get a personal call from me, collect.

Todd: And storms out of the room. Oh, I just love it that when he threw the typewriter at, at this guy, at this thing, that’s what stopped everything. And the explanation was, well, it, it’s the electronic man or two, you know, there’s a man or two in everything. And you know, and he keeps saying, well, don’t anybody bring the police.

What? Are you crazy? I’m thinking, bring the police, bring the police with all their guns, and let the bullet manatees take this guy out. 

Craig: No. Instead like, oh. And Syd somebody, Harry, because he’s like Colombo and MacGyver all in one. He’s, he’s like, he’s like, how much of this,

he’s like, he’s like, How much this electrical equipment do you have? Can you turn it all on at 

Todd: once?

Craig: Oh my God. I, I swear to God, I have the, I have it all written down. Supposedly took the Manitou of all this machinery in this hospital and turned it on all at once and direct the energy toward the mixmaster. It might just work.

Todd: But at this time, the whole room shakes up. Like literally the room looks like it’s falling apart. This is a room, by the way, on like the top floor of this skyscraper. And the walls are moving and the floor is coming apart into pieces, and then it all just stops and the room is normal again. And uh, that’s when John says, oh, the great old one is coming.

A powerful Satanic demonn. The great devourer is opening a. We better act fast, we better act 

Craig: fast. So they get back to car’s room. Oh God. Like at this point you’re like, what more could they give? Like if it were my birthday, if it were my birthday, what else could they do? 

Todd: I would’ve asked. For like, I don’t know, like a Star Wars style laser space Galaxy 

Craig: Shootout.

And that’s exactly what you would get my friend. 

Todd: Oh, just when you think, my God, somebody on production would be like, you know, that’s too silly. Somebody else was 

Craig: like, Nope. Doing it f and a doing it, opening a door, twilight zone style to outer space. Set up the camera. 

Todd: That’s literally what happens. They open the door and it is suddenly like outer space, like you said, like the intro to the Twilight Zone, where there’s a door floating through outer space with stars and everything, and it opens.

It’s like they’re, they are in that door looking in on this, and it’s Karen in her bed, and 

Craig: they will stay there. Until the movie is over, 

Todd: Manitou is floating around over on one side of the galaxy. Karen Herbet over here on the other side of this galaxy, they’re staring standing in the door. Not nearly as shocked as I would be.

Oh no, if I were in this spot, they’re not at all surprised. It’s coming the great cosmic battle or something. So Dr. Hughes, thankfully now we know why he has the console in his office so that he can turn on and control all the machines in the entire building. Which the act of turning them on apparently starts to raise the energy.

Yeah. 

Craig: But just before that, the great old one appears behind the Manitou and it’s just like a light show. Like it, it’s with an eyeball. It’s right. It’s reminiscent of like the journey through Willy Wonka’s tunnel. That’s 

Todd: exactly what I was thinking. It’s a light show with an occasional shocking image.

Right, exactly. Mostly of an eye. 

Craig: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Love it. But you’re right then. They turn it all on at once 

Todd: you see that the hospital are smoking, 

Craig: how much of this electrical stuff do you have? Can you turn it all on at once? Somebody wrote that, not just the lines, the plot point like that I know is a plot point.

I, I swear to God, I want to meet. Oh man. The director was one of the writers. And you can’t meet him cause he died. He died before the movie even came out. Isn’t that 

Todd: sad? And a helicopter crash in the Philippines. It’s really sad. It, uh, he made some interesting things before this that I kind of want to go back and watch now.

Craig: I know. And then I was reading something about this movie. I couldn’t find a lot about it. Kind of, uh, disappointing. I wanted all the tea, like I wanted all the backstory about this movie, and there just isn’t much to be found, at least that I could find. Um, but this poor guy, uh, had done a couple of other Slacky movies and he did this movie and yeah, he was scouting, uh, for another movie and he died in a helicopter crash.

And the article that I read was like, what a bummer, because. Think of all the wacky movies we could have gotten and, and I have never seen anything like this. We should tell the end. We should talk about the end. I’m getting ahead of myself, okay? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. So Harry says, all right, Ms. Meekus. I’ve had enough of this.

Who do you think you are? We’re not gonna scream anymore at each other. Miss Mancuss, you listen? 

Todd: Yes. Yes for, and 

Craig: the machine’s manatees. Are focusing their power. Karen finally gets her moment like, like if, like at first, at first, it seems like it’s not gonna work. Like it seems like, oh no, the machine’s Manitou aren’t on our side.

But then. The machine’s, Manitou start working for them and apparently like Karen talked ’em into it, I guess, because now all the machines are focusing their Manitou through her, so she sits up in bed naked from the waist up. Boobs out looking, banging, looking like she just got a blowout. She is fresh out of the salon looking hot and they focus all their power through her and she shoots a laser beam at the manure.

She 

Todd: shoots, shoots lasers out of her arms for a while. Actually, there’s a lot of laser shooting. Fireball. 

Craig: There’s all kinds of stuff going on. There are meteorites. 

Todd: There are meteorites coming at them. They’re literally dodging meteorites crazy when she’s shooting with her lasers. Oh man. 

Craig: And then the great one shoots fireballs at them.

But Karen hits it with her lasers and her power goes through the big space eyeball and it blows up like the 

Todd: death 

Craig: star. Yep. And then Harry and Karen embrace, 

Todd: And, and John’s explanation was, because this, because Karen sits up right after Harry chews out the monster and John says, it was your love that brought her back.

Yep. Damn. Straight. And that’s the end. And then it’s like, well that was weird. 

Craig: And then, and then, so then like, uh, Harry is like putting John in a cab and he is like, well, I guess we’re fine. The man of two’s dead. And John. His body is dead, but his spirit lives on, and then it cuts to an aerial shot of the city and a text comes up that says, fact.

Tokyo Japan, 1969, a 15 year old boy developed what Dr. Slot was a tumor in his chest. The larger it grew, the more uncharacteristic it appeared even. It proved to be a human fetus, right? 

Todd: Like we needed this at the end, right? Like I needed some reassurance that this movie is based in reality. Please show me this fact on the, the 

Craig: screen.

No, Todd, I was shocked. I had no idea that this was based on a true story. I was just blown away.

Todd: Right. Wow. 

Craig: I’m glad that they saved it for the end because I would’ve been skeptical otherwise. Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Mind blown. 

Craig: Oh, man, alive, I tell you what, this is one of my new favorite movies. Mm-hmm. I don’t say that very often, but this movie. Fantastic. 

Todd: This is right up there with blood rage and uninvited, as far as I’m concerned.

Yeah. 

Craig: Okay. So for me it would be like, it rivals for me. Death Spa de. The difference is, Ooh, the difference is Death Spa was intentionally silly. Right. And I don’t think that this one. Is? Mm-hmm. They’re just different. Love them both. I don’t know. There was another one, another B bad movie that the cat 

Todd: We The cat.

The cat on the boat. The uninvited, the cat, the evil cat 

Craig: ins in the cat. Mm-hmm. On the boat? Mm-hmm. That one too. I really like that movie too. Oh, this one is in a class all it’s own. Yes. I refuse to call it a bad movie. I don’t think it’s a bad movie. I think it’s original. I think the plot line. Interesting.

As crazy as it is, and it’s, it’s not really full of holes. Like you have to just get on board with it. Mm-hmm. And just accept that, okay, that’s what it is. But they did explain 

Todd: it even though no, people aren’t really acting logically in the face of thing. No. You know. No, not like that’s a. Generally, and 

Craig: I don’t know, even, even the things that sh like the, the frozen floor, it looks terrible.

I didn’t even care. Mm-hmm. I was so into the movie, I’m like, oh, that looks awful. Who cares? This is fun, right? Like, oh my God, especially f I swear to God from. Up until the seance. I was like, uh, it’s all right. I’m, I’m sure we’ll find interesting things to talk about Seance on. I was giddy. I was giddy. The movie was so fun because it was so ridiculous.

Uh, it was great. 

Todd: Yeah. You know, it’s not terribly reviewed. It’s odd because this seems like the kind of movie people would just dump on like relentlessly in kind of in a mean way. And the reviews, it’s that I read are quite kind to it. They’re all just saying the same thing. We’re saying like, this is absolutely absurd, but it’s got some fun special effects and the acting is pretty good.

There’s a couple instances where the acting’s kind of crazy, but it’s the script that makes the acting look silly. Yeah. Yeah. That’s. But we got great actors in here and Oh man, how nuts. I 

Craig: love it. I can’t believe I’ve never heard of it. It’s so strange. Me too. And, uh, you know what, there’s very little trivia about it.

I know. I looked, I, I tried harder than I usually try. I usually hit up the regular spots I M D B, Wikipedia, you know, do a, a regular Google search. I, I looked for stuff here and I just couldn’t find anything and I was disappointed. Yeah, because I can only imagine there are. Stories. There have to be, oh, come on.

Yeah. Maybe someday. Who knows? I wanna see 

Todd: all this director’s movies. I wanna see Project Kill Abby, asylum of Satan and Three on a meat Hook. All of them sound 

Craig: great. Abby, I think was a fairly blatant exorcist ripoff. As is this one really? Mm-hmm. And, and that’s totally, yeah. Like if somebody’s gonna s of Rip off of the Exorcist.

Yep. Sure is. Sure is. Yeah. Uh, and I liked it anyway. It, it gave me Poltergeist vibes too, uh mm-hmm. In a lot of ways. Which again, another one of my favorite movies, two of my favorite movies. Giving me those vibes. Give it. I love it. 

Todd: It’s also one of the very few movies that have, you know, native American spiritual elements to it.

And I’ve, and I know this because I think we might have discussed this when, you know, when we were doing a movie or two, but I’ve been on the lookout for them because I was hoping that we could put together a whole theme month of this kind of stuff. And there’s not a lot of it out there. So yeah, it’s groundbreaking in so many ways.

Craig: Yeah, I don’t know about that, but, oh gosh. Friends, friends of the podcast. Oh, I hope, I really, really hope that you took our advice and, uh, went and watched it before you listened to this, but if you didn’t, oh man alive, like, do it. Oh, please, please go now because if, if you like the kind of stuff we like, and maybe you don’t, but if you do, oh, you’re gonna like this movie.

You’re gonna have a good, it’s on shutter. Good time. 

Todd: It’s on Shudder. Probably other places, probably. Well, thank you Craig, for choosing the movie this week. Thank you listeners for listening in. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. If you’ve seen this movie, please let us know what you thought about it.

As we said, we could talk about it all day. We can continue that discussion online. You can find our Facebook page, leave us a comment there. You can find our website. Leave us comments there. You can join our patrons and, uh, we always have back back, uh, I want to say backdoor. That sounds bad. We always have, um, you know, kind of a backroom conversation going with our patrons, uh, throughout the, the week about the movies that we do.

Just check out patreon.com/chainsaw podcast or Google “Two Guys and a Chainsaw podcast” to find all those things and more. We also have an Instagram and a Twitter if you’re into that. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig, with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Special thanks to Loyal Listener and Patron, Chase, for this week’s recommendation: A classic of the genre often cited as Britain’s Psycho, released the same year as Alfred Hitchcock’s classic (1960). The controversy surrounding this film nearly sunk the career of its illustrious director, which included the very first instance of nudity in British cinema. Enjoy our exposé of Peeping Tom!

Peeping Tom (1960)

Episode 340, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: This week we dive back, uh, down into the 1960s, not an era that we dive into too often on this show. Is it? Nope, because, um, the horror movies, kind of as we know it, unless you’re gonna talk about like Universal monster style stuff or 1950s, uh, you know, cheesy sci-fi horror movies, uh, B films. I guess we did like, um, you know, the remake of The Blob and we talked about The Blob on that.

Generally speaking, um, horror doesn’t start to get too bold on the screen until about this time and Peeping Tom. The movie that we’re doing today was recommended to us by loyal listener Chase. Thank you, Chase, for this recommendation. It came out in 1960 and uh, it was kind of acclaimed as a British Psycho.

I think Alfred Hitchcock’s movie is a considerably more lurid, I suppose, than this movie is. I kind of found it interesting to see where the lines get drawn, you know, between British film at this time and American film making at this time. Even though Hitchcock was a British filmmaker, he shot most of his movies, uh, after a while at least, uh, in Hollywood, especially Psycho because this film as tame as it really ends up being caused a huge stir when it came out and practically ruined the director’s career because it was so controversial.

Audiences really responded negatively to it. Critics responded negatively to it because, um, I don’t know. It’s kind of hard to say why. I just think the Moores social Moores were a little different at this time and, uh, this is sometimes said to be the very first slasher movie, although I think that’s debatable.

Yeah, there’s no blood. In here. And the other notable thing about this movie was that it is supposedly the first, um, portrayal of nudity in mainstream British film. Right. And the nudity in this movie, as it ended up in the theaters, is kind of blinking. You miss it. Yeah. It wasn’t intended to be that way, but it ended up that way.

Um, but it was enough. It was enough to stir a lot of interesting. Talk for us today, I suppose. And yeah, I, you know, I’ll just say I’ve never seen this movie before, but it has been on so many lists of films you need to see. Uh, there’s a Criterion Collection version of it now. It’s, it’s quite notorious, like I said, it’s often compared to Hitchcock’s Psycho, but it’s a very different movie than Psycho.

Mm-hmm. I was super excited, uh, to get the recommendation from Chase to do this because it’s been on my list forever. And, uh, Craig goes like, yep, let’s go ahead and do it. So here we’re talking about it today, so, yep. Definitely my first time seeing it. How about you? Yeah, me 

Craig: too. I feel like I must have heard about it.

I don’t know. Uh, I, I read somewhere that it’s mentioned in one of the scream movies, you know, like establishing rules. Cuz I think that they, I think that they falsely claim in that movie that this is the first film that uses Killer pov. I think it had actually happened a couple of times in the forties, but this is one of the first.

Uh, which is interesting, but I don’t know. I, I didn’t really know anything about it and I didn’t read anything about it going in, but I’m always up for whatever. And like you said, chase has been a really loyal listener, so as soon as you said he requested, I’m like, well, obviously let’s just do it then.

But I didn’t know anything about it and, uh, I went in and I started watching it. Oh, gosh. I just, I don’t, I don’t get it now. Mostly in hindsight, I don’t get it because I really kind of don’t understand why it’s so controversial. What year did, what year did, uh, psycho come out? I didn’t look it 

Todd: up. That’s a good question.

Let me look it up right now. Okay. The reason 

Craig: that I ask is because like, had sensibilities changed significantly. I also kind of thought that British people and Europeans in general were less prudish than Americans about things like nudity. Oh. 

Todd: Well, I don’t know if it’s all nudity. Well, I, no, I’m not sure.

I mean, I think when you’re talking the continent, you’re talking France and, and, um, you know, Denmark in places like Scandinavian countries and things, they tend to be much less prudish. And you’ve seen sex and cinema from, uh, even earlier than this. And, you know, that was kind of a, not just in cinema, just I think like you look at the history of pornography and things like that, you know.

Um, but, but, but when you look at, look, and I’m not gonna pretend to be an expert in this either, but I’m just kind of going from the evidence I’ve gotten. Oh, by the way, uh, psycho came out the exact same year. Okay. 

Craig: See L and and you said that, I don’t remember what word you used exactly, but that Psycho was maybe a little bit more salacious than this movie.

Is that something like that? Well, um, 

Todd: I think it’s more lured is what I said. Lured, and I don’t really mean about the sex. But maybe, yeah, maybe I do kind of mean that. I’m not sure. I don’t know. They’re just, 

Craig: they’re very, very similar. Yeah. There’s no nudity in Psycho. Right? Like you see Janet Lee in the shower, but only from like, high on her shoulders. 

Todd: Yeah. Uh, I mean it’s how do you define nudity? Right? Maybe her legs. She’s nude, but you’re not seeing her nipples and, and any of her private parts.

Craig: Right. And so there’s not a lot of that there, but like the, the psychological stuff, which again, people objected to, like at some point this movie was considered one of the most dangerous movies ever.

I don’t even understand really what that means. It got, it. Just, I think the objections that the, the things that I read that people objected to just seemed like very specific. Like selective outrage, like, yeah. Why, why are you so upset about like, it seems very silly.

Todd: I think it’s a different time. I mean, you know, it’s, it’s still, I don’t wanna say early, but it is earlier than it is now.

You know, in the infancy of cinema, I think there was probably a concern that people would watch a movie and get ideas from it. And so any movie about like a serial killer or somebody like this, you know, would be like, that the, the character is disturbing. Maybe because you could imagine that this guy could very easily be your next door neighbor.

So that can kind of hit you at that level. Now we’ve seen a hundred movies like that since then. Yeah. But, but if this was one of the first to come along, I could see where it would be scandalous. There is a, a fair amount of nudity in like, photography in the movie. Like there’s, I know, I also think that it was a more prudish time and I think the British were a little more prudish than maybe even the Americans because, I mean, think about the video, nasty.

Thing, you know? Yeah. On the shelves here, like where it got slasher movies and new stuff, just kind of up one side and down the other. Drive-in fair was super gross and gory and nobody batted an eye. Whereas across the border at the same time, like are like literally banning films from being shown and distributed.

So there’s must be more of a prudishness to the British, um, sensibilities, especially at this time than there was in American. What was allowed. 

Craig: There must be, I guess, you know, you said people, they’re afraid that people would watch something like this and get ideas. I I, one of the other ways that it’s compared to Psycho is that it features kind of a sympathetic antagonist.

Like the, the, the killer is kind of sympathetic. Um, and I think that people, things that I’ve read, people say, That’s even more true in this. Like I agree. I think so Agree. I, I think that in Psycho, I think that Anthony Perkins is, um, sympathetic because he’s handsome and charming. Yeah. So I don’t know. Well, and he seems really nice, you know, and this guy, like, I could see how he was written that way.

But this actor is creepy 

Todd: as like he is. But, but I think the difference is in cycle, at the end of the day when you’re done watching the movie, you, this is a guy who’s portrayed as a dude with a mental illness. Like he’s got two sides to him. I mean, think of that creepy last shot of him, kind of almost like learing at the camera when he’s in the Straight jacket. But you know, before that you see this totally sweet and nice guy. Like, it’s, it’s like that this guy un unlike Psycho, this movie gives us much more backstory on this character, which right, I think provides a sympathy. Now, of course, psycho was a book and there was a lot of discussion about the backstory of this character in the production of the film.

And of course, by the end of the movie you realize, sorry, spoiler alert guys, if you haven’t seen Psycho, you need to stop right now and go see it. But anyway, like by the end of the movie, we realize that he has this infatuation with his mother to the point where, you know, he’s putting on her clothes and he’s kind of acting like her.

And that’s, that’s just kind of nuts, right? But it’s edible and you know, like we can kind of like wrap our minds around it, but it just, it’s like an impact thing that happens at the end of the movie and then the movie. Whereas this movie, we really kind of dive deep pretty early on in the film into this guy’s weird disturbed childhood.

And so I feel like he’s way more sympathetic because at least you get early in the movie kind of an explanation as to why this kid, this guy is so off. Yeah. And so that floats with you through the whole film. And so yeah, he’s still creepy as but at least you’re like, well God, look at his upbringing.

Look at how he was treated by his father. Like, you know, you have a more sympathy. Whereas Psycho it’s like a, it’s like a twist. Well, right. And I guess like this is a character study, I think more than that I, I’ve 

Craig: been living with Psycho. 35 years. So like I’ve had plenty of time to think about it and I’ve seen all of the sequels.

All the sequels and, and they do get into backstory a lot, especially in like the, I think the last one was four, maybe I, whatever. So I don’t know. Like, I, I just don’t think of it kind of as that shocking ending because I’m so aware of the context. Yeah. If I were. But I feel like if I were to watch this, if, if I could somehow magically go back in time and watch Psycho and this movie, Back to back.

I just feel like you can’t help see the parallels. I mean, it’s the exact same thing. Like, yeah. So, uh, Norman Bates’ mom messed him up somehow, or he is messed up about his mom. All right. Whatever. This guy, mark, uh, Lewis, the main character was messed up by his dad. Like, I mean, that’s just what, what it boils.

It’s true down to, yeah, we get more, well, kind of more, but we, I mean we, but again, it’s just like, again, spoiler alert, you know, like Norman Bates kind of takes on the persona of his mother. That’s basically what this guy’s doing too. Kind of, kind of, well, it’s just his art is different. Like the, the dad’s art, I guess was psychology and, and his art is film, but there’s.

Exploring the same things. You get what I’m saying? 

Todd: They’re very, I know exactly what you’re saying. Yeah, I know exactly what you’re saying. I mean, I mean, like, of course Norman Bates, like, because it’s like a, a man in a wo and, and his mother and, and he’s also taking on like her personality, like he’s dressing like her and things.

There’s also that sort of edible men attracted to their mother perhaps kind of sexual thing that actually gets explored in psycho four that she potentially sexually abused him. This movie, the father is definitely abusing the child, but it’s in this sort of scientific kind of weird way where the father is really trying to explore the meaning of fear and especially how fear affects young children and he’s using.

Kid is like a Guinea pig and he’s documenting all that, you know, so that you get this, this notion that this kid has lived his whole life, you know, in front of a camera because his dad has been kind of tormenting him and playing with him and, and putting him in these weird situations that are really not appropriate for a child.

And filming him for his research. And he writes books and things about this. It’s like a psychological thing. So like, you know, I wouldn’t say that in this movie, like, yeah, he kind of becomes his father, right? Because he kind of continues that word. He’s obsess obsessed. Yeah. He doesn’t have that, that element of like potentially like erotic, uh, you know, context to it.

Yeah. 

Craig: I guess I 

Todd: don’t, but, but, but the movie’s erotic, like it’s, it’s more so than psycho. I mean, the, the, the interesting thing about this movie is that this guy, and I think this is another reason that is cited as to why this movie is so, was so shocking at the time and again, Craig, I’m with you. It’s hard for me to place myself in the 1960s in anywhere, let alone Britain, and be able to understand why I would watch this movie and be shocked.

But what is often cited is that this, um, like you said, it probably wasn’t the first, but this movie definitely has a, a voyeuristic quality to it, kind of like the beginning of Halloween. Yeah. In fact, it’s interesting. I almost feel like John Carpenter must have taken some inspiration from the beginning of this movie because, uh, you know, our first kill is it, the movie starts out with a woman just on a London street.

Uh, she is clearly like a street walker. She’s standing there looking at a window in a window. It’s dark outside, it’s nighttime. She’s the only one there. Uh, and we don’t see the person approaching her. We just see it through a, the lens of a camera and it’s almost like a target on her. Really. It’s like a crosshair.

I wanted to 

Craig: ask you about that because I know that you are familiar with like, Cameras and, and cinema. Why is it that his viewfinder is segmented like that? Is it those 

Todd: kind of segments delineate the rule of thirds where you want to put the most interesting parts of your composition in, uh, uh, a quarter basically of the screen.

You want it to be like a third down and a third over from any one direction. So if you divided the screen, honestly, nowadays a lot of, um, digital cameras have the option to put these kind of overlays up there. If you put everything kind of in the middle, it’s rather boring. But if you put everything a little off center and maybe a little up, so it’s for the photographer’s reference.

Exactly. Yeah. Okay. But it has the handy element of almost looking like a target. Right. Which, you know, I don’t think is accidental here, so, no. Yeah. It comes from behind him. And so all we see is through the lens of this as, as this guy approaches this woman and she says, oh, it’s like two quid. And then he follows her and he actually throws away in the garbage can little paper container that his reel of film was in, which I thought was really funny.

Uh, but it films that as well, him throwing out, I thought, 

Craig: surely. They’re like that, that, that something would come of that, like it would be a clue that the police would find later or something. Oh yeah. But no, 

Todd: I think it was just a thematic thing. And he follows her up the stairs and they go into their bedroom and she starts to strip down.

She’s very dispassionate about it. Oh yeah. Then he gets closer to her and she looks up and is like, wait a minute. And you see this light flickering on her face, uh, which is clearly a reflection of something. And my immediately thought was, oh, that must be a knife. Right. Um, I don’t think it was, but I’ve got other ideas, but yeah.

Um, and then she starts to scream and the camera goes closer and closer and closer. And then we get the title peeping Tom, and the next thing I think we see is him watching the footage back, but we still haven’t seen his. He’s watching it back on a, on a projector in his, uh, dark room. The next thing we see is the police dragging her out.

But we’re also seeing this through the view of this camera, and it’s not until somebody approaches this camera and says, Hey, where are you from? Like, you’re a journalist or something. Where you, which paper are you from? That this guy finally puts down the camera and we see his face. And so long roundabout way of saying that, one thing that’s cited about this movie is that sort of for the first time or something that was shocking to the audiences was it kind of put themselves in the killer’s shoes and implicated them in the deaths of these women by giving a, you know, first person.

Viewing of 

Craig: everything. Yeah. I don’t know. It’s just, it’s, it’s difficult for me to talk. It’s going to be difficult for me to talk about because frankly, overall I didn’t really enjoy it. But I’m just some schmuck sitting in my house, like film people who study films cite this as being like a masterpiece.

Todd: Martin Scorsese’s favorite, one of his favorite films. 

Craig: Yeah. And so obviously there is something going on there that I don’t have the capacity to understand, but like it’s fine. It’s fine. There’s nothing in necessarily wrong with it. I just kind of don’t get why it was so scandalous. And I feel like if it weren’t for the scandal, Would it be as renowned and revered as it is?

I just don’t know. Well 

Todd: put aside the scandal for a minute and just let’s talk about the, the, the movie itself and why it didn’t like it, or you were bored or whatever. Like, we’ve done character studies like this. 

Craig: Well, and it reminded me of that, it reminded me of Martin. 

Todd: What about Oliver? Um, yeah, who’s watching Oliver or whatever.

Who’s watching Oliver? Um, uh, it to some extent Willard in a way, but you know Yes, yes, yes. Willard’s a little more modern and, and 

Craig: I don’t have any problem with that. I just wasn’t particularly invested. Like, I just wasn’t particularly, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of slow. I became more invested with the introduction of Helen, the love interest.

Mm-hmm. I liked her and found her very charming and I really liked their interaction. This guy, uh, the actor’s name is Carl Bom, and he is, Just without question. Clearly German, but he’s supposed to be English and his, he has a th thick, maybe, uh, exaggerating a little bit, but he has a distinct German accent and they never, like, it’s just not commented on.

And that it, it doesn’t pull me out, but it like, it’s like an uncanny valley thing. Like there, there’s something off about him. Hmm. And he just kinda looks crazy. He’s a little, he, I have to admit, he’s a handsome man, but he’s just kind of like affected. He is kind of got like crazy eyes. Yeah. 

Todd: Well also, like, I think this is a time period where movies were a little more presentational.

Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. You know, it 

Todd: was kind of an unnatural quality anyway, but So they would kind of exaggerate. There’s like a slight bit of melodrama, if not in the plot, in the acting. Right. So I mean, I get what you’re saying, like this guy was creepy and he was obviously creepy and it’s kind of, at some level it was almost hard to believe that Helen would not be turned off by him, but then she’s acting like a little extra lovey dovey towards him.

It just, it’s just sort of the style of the film, which I think was the style of the time. Right. Yeah. But, but actually, I really appreciated the fact that I liked his performance and I thought there were lots of little touches in there that were also sometimes blinking. You miss him, like in that beginning part where that guy, oh no, no.

It’s a cop takes his camera away for a second and kind of looks at it. Mm-hmm. He’s kind of holding it, moving it. When his camera’s in this other guy’s hand, he with his own hands is kind of like mimicking. As though he’s still holding the camera. Like I, I just felt like there was a lot about this guy that was creepy, but it was also, um, very deliberate.

Yeah. In showing maybe in a, a more overt way than we show nowadays. Right. We want to be more subtle nowadays. Right. But I feel like there were a lot of very interesting artistic, thematic choices made by the acting that were clearly put there by the director to make us clearly know that this guy kind of like, almost sees his life as a movie.

He has seen life through a camera. It, it’s almost like as he’s an adult now, he’s taking the power back from his father, you know, who has shoved a camera in his face his whole life and did all these terrible things to him that now he’s got the camera and now he’s gonna make his own documentary. But it’s a twisted documentary.

Craig: Yeah, he’s fine. Like, I, I don’t have any problem with the actor and, and you know, the director, whether it’s, you know, the direction or, or his acting choices, I think it’s fine, especially because. There’s no mystery. He doesn’t have anything to hide. We know he’s the killer from the very beginning. Mm. So it’s not like he has to try to hide that from us.

It just seems, I don’t know. I would’ve thought that he would’ve seemed more suspicious to anybody else. Right? No, but nobody ever, I don’t know. Nobody finds him 

Todd: suspicious at all, ever. I mean, just seems like an awkward guy, right? Like not very sociable, not very comfortable in social situations, doesn’t really know how to relate to people.

I mean, there’s a lot of people like this that you don’t, you know, you’re not gonna think well then they must be killers. Right. Um, 

Craig: I know he’s fine. Like, whatever. Maybe I wouldn’t think he was weird either, but if I were Helen, I would because Yeah. The way that she meets him is that, Peeking in on her windows 

Todd: all the time.

Yeah. 

Craig: And like she finds that charming and invites him in like, oh, hello Mr. 

Todd: Pee, come on in. But I mean, to be fair, like just for everybody who hasn’t seen the movie, it’s not like he was peeping in on her changing. She had a birthday party downstairs in the living room with the, with the curtains wide open.

Like anybody could have like walked by and looked in, but Yeah, I 

Craig: know. But he does it again later. And the mom, it’s creepy, is blind. The mom who’s blind says that he does it all the time. Yeah. And the daughter’s like, and the daughter’s like, what do you mean? And she’s like, well, I can just sense it. Like, because she’s blind.

I guess she has like spidey sensor or something. I don’t 

Todd: know. That mom is Mommy’s the blind woman could see it then why not the rest of them, I thought the mom being blind was, once again, it’s like a very thematic choice, right? They’re trying to, this is what I kind of like about these kind of movies and this is why I think I watched it and I really enjoyed it.

Is. Yeah, I, I don’t necessarily think this is a very representational of real life. It’s certainly not the way we make movies now where we want to be a little more realistic about things, portray things as they might actually happen and have people act the way they normally would. It’s like, not melodramatic, but it’s approaching that end of the spectrum.

But I feel like it still leaves a certain impression with you and it kind of gives you an insight into a particular personality because of these choices that it makes. And yeah, maybe it’s pretty on the nose, but I kind of like that too. Like I like this, this kind of on the nose filmmaking, where’re like, oh, I see what they were trying to do there.

Oh yeah, they’re really, I don’t know if I’m expressing it well enough, but like I really liked all these different choices. I liked the way that the movie deliberately took me through things. I liked that the movie, it felt like it was kind of challenging me to notice stuff. And also, maybe I also kinda like the subject matter because, ah, I like to dive into the CD underbelly of everything every once in a while.

Right. And I thought it was really cool that this guy, and especially in, in any particular era, I’m super curious, you know, what was permitted, what were people really doing behind the scenes? Right. This guy works at a, um, it seems like a, a film studio. Yeah. But also like drugstore, whatever kind of Oh, well 

Craig: he, that, that’s like his, um, side gig, right?

Like, like he, he works at a film studio. He’s a cameraman or something. He does something with measuring tape. I don’t, 

Todd: no. He’s a, I will tell you, he’s a focus puller. It’s one of the most technical but most boring parts of, of filming. And that is when you’ve got a camera, you know, somebody’s gotta run the camera and somebody’s gotta turn the knobs to make sure that it’s in focus when it needs to be.

And that’s what he is. And so, yes, he’s using that measuring tape to measure the distances so that he could be sure to hit the right. Number is on that dial when he needs to for the shot. 

Craig: I knew you would explain what he was doing. 

Todd: I thought that was interesting too. Actually. I thought that was interesting too, that he was like a lowly focus puller in his real job.

I don’t mind, I don’t mean to disparage focus pulling, I mean, but it’s a very. Technical and precise thing. It’s not that creative, but in his side gig, he’s got this little studio above a little drugstore, whatever, that seems to sell more, uh, nude postcards and photographs than anything else. Yeah. Where he just takes lurid, nude, nude, or semi nude of pig cheesecake.

Photos of young women. I was into that. I like, I’d like checking the sound. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, I like it. It was an interesting subplot 

Todd: that had to be controversial for the day Right. To just was kinda shine a light on this and, and show us an explicit detail. You’re right. But that’s the 

Craig: thing. Okay. Uh, okay.

Several things. First of all, you don’t have to defend this movie to me. I’m wrong. I just have to figure out why, like 

Todd: everybody else is Right. We’re just discussing it. That’s fine. 

Craig: Okay. I’m just saying you don’t have to defend it. I, everybody likes it apparently, except me. So I, I have to figure that out for myself.

But the other thing, like, I don’t understand this drugstore shop because it’s like he sells these naked pictures, like under the table. Like, I don’t know if the drugstore is just kind of really a front for his. I he’s just doing it on the side. That’s what it seems like. But he, he’s, he’s being shady about it.

Like people have to come in and like ask, you know, like for something specific and then he pulls a book out from under the counter and 

Todd: shows ’em and stuff. By the way, I just gotta say this, that hilarious scene where the elderly guy comes in, I’m told by a friend that you have some views for sale. What sort of views?

Hmm? What? This sort? Yes. How much each? Uh, five shillings each, sir. Well, I’ll have that one. Yeah. Oh, and that,

how much would the lot be to you? Five pounds, sir. Well, uh, I’ll tell you what, sir, I’ll make it four pounds, 10, and I’ll throw in the times and the telegraph. How’s that? Thank you very much. You’re welcome. Did you 

Craig: recognize. No, but I wasn’t 

Todd: paying that close attention. We have seen him in two other movies before this.

Oh, was the old black and white movie Dead of Night when we were doing the anthology month. He was the guy driving the hearse who was like looking up one, oh, there’s room for one more Uhhuh. Okay. And then I think we saw him again, uh, in another movie. I believe it was that other, it was another Anth anthology movie.

He’s got a very distinctive 

Craig: look. That is funny. I, I didn’t, yeah. But, but the thing like, he’s being really like secretive about it, but when you see the store from the exterior, the whole front window is plastered with these nudie pictures. Yeah, it’s, 

Todd: I don’t understand that. It doesn’t make sense. I don’t know if the implication is supposed to be that these.

Better pictures, like they show more or something. I don’t 

Craig: know. I don’t know either. But I also like, like one of the nudity was one of the things that was so scandalous about it, which of course I wasn’t around in the 1960s, but when I was in London, Hmm, 20, 25 years ago. Like it. I, first of all, I loved London and would love to have the opportunity to go back.

It was an amazing city, but it was seedy in that, like they probably don’t, I don’t even know if they have phone booths anymore. I don’t know if phone booths are a thing that exist in the world anymore, but like you would, you would go into a phone booth and it would be wallpapered with beaver shots. Like just you, like you were completely enveloped in Beaver and Oh, that sounds nice.

So I know. You’re disgusting. Don’t kick me straight.

So like, I, I assume that that’s, you know, just, I don’t know, maybe the queen didn’t want people to know. I, I’m not sure exactly why it was so scandalous, but it is, and, and like, that’s another thing. There was, you know, they did shoot some nude shots, particularly with this actress named Morris Sheer, who I think they found because she did nude modeling.

Do you mean Pamela Green? Uh, I don’t know. I’m I’m, I’m talking about Viv. Oh no, you’re right. And I don’t remember, there was a story like she did nude modeling on the side or something, and, uh Oh no, 

Todd: she was, this was her. All right. So I also went down to Pamela Green Rabbit Hole because I read the same stuff you did and I just had to learn more.

And she actually, uh, with another guy named, uh, George Harrison, marks, I believe. Started a magazine, a couple magazines of their own, one of them called Camera, which was apparently very, very, very popular. Mostly a magazine filled with Nudie pictures. Also, they did like mail order nude photos and things like that.

It’s super quaint and interesting. But yeah, she was very much into this. In fact, she is a trained actress, by the way. She was like a theater, in theater, dance, all that stuff. Went to school, all this stuff, but was mostly just doing nude photo shoots and things, uh, by the end of it. And this was her very first like film role that she ever got.

And she was super nervous about it. And I think at one point she, she talks about, by the way, I should put a link to her webpage cuz she literally has an essay that she’s written. She died, uh, like 15 years ago, but she has an essay that she wrote that’s up on this website, all about the filming of this movie.

And it’s, it’s not, it’s not too long, but it’s cool. She talks a lot about the director and how he was a weird guy, Uhhuh and some of the weird shit that he put her through. Like, she didn’t even know she was gonna be nude in this movie until it was time to shoot her nude scene. And he came on and says, okay, this is where you disrobe.

And she’s like, Uhuh, this wasn’t in the script. And he’s like, well, but you do this. Like, this is what you do. This is what you do all the time. And she’s like, yeah, like for my photographer partner, for our, our magazines and things, but like, You didn’t say this was gonna be in the movie. So it was kind of awkward.

Very, very pre-me too. But she’s also made a comment in there that like she was really frustrated at one point with the, with the director and she made some comment about how, look, don’t give me this lip. You know what you’re paying me for three days on this shoot. I’m making just one day in my own studio.

So Uhhuh, she was very successful doing this kind of thing and actually sounds like a really awesome person when 

you 

Craig: start reading, I. I liked her in the movie. You know, I don’t know how much of it was her and how much of it was the acting, but she’s very brassy. Yeah. And, and I, I enjoyed her character.

She gets killed, but offscreen because we hardly see any violence at all. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, if you, if you go to IMDB and read the trivia, like there’s a lot of it, and I would say a good half, if not three quarters of it is about her being naked. Like Yeah, I get it. Like, okay, they had to put her makeup on her butt.

Like, uh, like that’s fascinating. Big deal. I, I don’t under. Right. I don’t understand. And I, I kind of, I guess, and if this really was kind of the first instance of nudity, On screen, which I guess it was, that’s another story you can read about how some journalist snuck on set and was surreptitiously shooting her nude until she noticed and mm-hmm.

Said something about it and they got him out of there. But, um, I guess, you know, this journalist was trying to get the first shot of nudity in film or something. I don’t know. It’s just, it’s just, I don’t know, coming from a 2023 perspective, it is so 

Todd: tame. It’s so cute. It’s quaint. And you said 

Craig: it’s quaint and, and you said, I mean, my God, Todd, you and I grew up watching Best Little Who House in Texas.

Yeah. And there are just boobies flopping around Yeah. In that whole movie. And so I just never even really thought anything of it. Yeah. 

Todd: I didn’t either. My mom. Didn’t even realize what she was showing me. 

Craig: Yeah. I don’t know. My, my mom now I think shakes her head at herself, but, you know, my parents were hardworking people.

The TV had to babysit us sometimes. That’s just the way that it was, but it’s just funny. It, it’s almost difficult to believe that anything here could have been. And and to be fair, they toned it down. There was supposed to be more nudity. Um, you actually contacted me and said, I think I may have sent you the American edit, which edits out all the nudity.

I did see her boobs. Yeah. Um, for like a second. She’s laying on her back on the bed. 

Todd: She’s flat on her back, and it’s not, it’s not head on. She’s kind of in the lower third of the screen and it’s kind of from, almost from the headboard. And it’s 

Craig: a really artful shot. And it’s so brief, like, yeah, it’s super weird and it, it, it’s not learing it, it 

Todd: just mm-hmm.

Well, it’s, honestly, it doesn’t, it’s frustrating because then it just cuts from that to now. Apparently she’s dead uhhuh all of the kills in this movie. Happen after a cut. Like there’s no, there’s no blood. Actually, it’s an, another thing that she says in this list is she said she was bewildered when she read the script.

She said, I, I don’t really get it. She’s like, this is a horror movie with no blood. Do I die in here? Yeah. So I mean, it definitely makes some different choices from Psycho where you get this, you know, still pretty extreme shower scene of the knife coming down in blood, going down, you know, screaming and, and I mean, right, right.

Of course Psycho was controversial for the time too, so 

Craig: I know I, and I did, you know, there, there are elements of the movie that I liked, you know, you say melodramatic, I would say in parts it’s kind of campy, but seemingly intentionally, so, yeah. And I like that, like, like Millie, the woman we’re just talking about, she’s campy and, uh, anytime you’re up, really, anytime you’re in that shop, um, it’s a little bit.

On the melodramatic side, not to the point of being outside of realism, but just a little bit heightened. Hmm. Um, and then also on the movie set, when they’re filming, uh, whatever movie it is they’re filming about picking crates or 

Todd: hats or whatever. Right. 

Craig: That stuff like there, some of that with that actress who is playing the terrible, like starlet in that movie, Uhhuh, some of that.

Legit funny. Yeah. 

Todd: Like clearly and, and it clearly intended to be so Yeah. 

Craig: Right. Purposeful. I, I did enjoy that stuff. And like, I, those parts, especially the part, well no, the boudoir set is the same, but on the movie set it feels very old movie. Yeah. It’s very colorful. Beautiful. By the way, was this re, was this released in black and white?

It must have been right? No, no, no, no. It’s a color movie. Gotcha. I I thought maybe it had been recolored colorized later. No. Be and, and I was curious because I really liked it, the, the color in. Yeah. In those certain scenes, like the visual aesthetic matches the. In those scenes just as it, the visual aesthetic matches the tone in other scenes, but in a different way.

Yeah. Like when you’re in Mark’s studio in his house, it’s all very dark and shadowy and just like small beams of light for the lighting. And yeah. I can see technically how there’s a lot of really, really good stuff going on. That’s awesome. I just wasn’t super invested in the story, but it looks great. 

Todd: Oh God.

Yeah. It looks amazing. And, and the shots are really interesting. It’s really interesting. Even, um, so he, he kills this woman at the beginning. Uh, and like I said, we don’t see how she dies. We just see the, her scream into the camera. And then, uh, we, like you said, we get onto this set, which is his, well, first he swings by his, his, uh, not real job, which is, uh, Well, his side job, which is, you know, shooting, um, these, these models, these girly pictures, and Pamela Green and we’re up there and then we see, oh, this guy also, like, he’s a serious photographer.

He’s a focus puller on a big major movie set. Uh, and he’s in there, like you said, with that woman who’s this kind of like starlet and they’re doing this thing about picking trunks or whatever. And then there’s a stand in for this girl. Hold 

Craig: on real quick that, that’s, I wanna talk about that scene too, but real quick, the, the first scene where he’s doing like the boudoir photos mm-hmm.

What was with 

Todd: the hair lip was, yeah. What that was was just shitty 

Craig: makeup. I understand what a hair lip is or what a clef pallet is, or like, I get that, was there a point to 

Todd: it? It was just part of the character or like, it’s supposed to be shocking. Like she’s standing there and the nervous one or whatever.

She turns around and then he looks at it and he sees it and he suddenly fascinated by it. Right. Right, because it’s Uhhuh I figured cuz it’s unusual or because I didn’t know if they 

Craig: were, I didn’t know if they were trying to make some statement about how nobody really cares about her face. You know, they’re not there to see her face 

Todd: or, yeah.

Well that’s, that’s said, 

Craig: right? I don’t know. Or if they were trying to say something about Mark’s appreciation of beauty, like did he find something beautiful that other people would not like? 

Todd: I think so. Cuz I think Mark is, is is fascinated by the grotesque. Right. And so yeah. That, that absolutely fascinates him.

I mean, it’s comical by today’s standards, but like in the shot, he makes his big production of pulling his camera out, Millie from the sides like, doesn’t matter, you don’t need to shoot her face. And he’s like, no, I want to shoot her face. And he just slowly approaches her with the camera. It’s, it’s sadly it’s terrible makeup though.

And, and, uh, according to, um, Pamela Green and her little writeup, she said that that woman’s, it kept coming off. It looked like it was coming off, you know, by the way, up there in the bourgeois, all of that setting, all that scenery, especially that awesome little like, fake Parisian street that was actually from her studio.

Oh, really? The director visited her studio and loved it so much that he was like, can we just use these pieces In the movie? She like got imprints of like, uh, cobblestone streets and walls, like from the actual streets of London to, to build that painted herself and everything. Wow. I’m telling you this, Pamela Green sounds like the most awesome woman.

Yeah, 

Craig: she does sound really interesting. She was, she was good. I liked her. Um, but you were gonna talk about, okay. So that the scene that you were getting ready to talk about, he hangs back with this extra, who is, you know, herself an actress, very beautiful actress in real life. They must have been flirting before this.

Mm-hmm. Because it seems like they had talked about meeting up, spending time together or going out or something. And she seems very comfortable with him and I really liked this scene. Mm-hmm. It was act like up until the point where he kills her. It was really 

Todd: charming. Really? 

Craig: Yeah. I thought so. Anyway, like, you know, she Oh, I agree.

Is just, I mean, it’s just banter. They’re just bantering with one another and he is like, I don’t know, he’s like setting up shots and like marking her mark on the stage, like they’re gonna be shooting us. He’s 

Todd: very workman-like during this and she’s just free and like kind of warming up. And is she kind 

Craig: of, I don’t remember if she’s dancing around.

Yeah, it’s been a couple days since I watched it. She’s, she’s dancing around 

Todd: and. That, that awesome little reel to reel cassette player. Oh God, I love that. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I feel like the, the way that it was shot was kind of sweeping with her movement. I don’t know. Yeah. It was just, uh, a very charming scene.

Todd: Oh, well, I stood alone in front of a studio camera at more than most half ever stood behind one. No 

Craig: Help 

Todd: yourself. Oh, I can see your mark. Perfectly good. Yes, sir. I bet I’m the best camerawoman in the business. Oh, what you’re doing, photographing you photographing me. Oh, mark, 

Craig: you are brilliant. So then it was even more unsettling when he starts filming her and then it becomes uncomfortable and then you, this is where we kind of, for the first time, see his.

Mo, which I think is kind of stupid, but 

Todd: yeah, he, um, so he picks up the camera, which is still attached to the tripod, and he flips out one of the tripod legs directly at her, and he’s kind of coming towards her. And then he yanks off the end of the tripod leg that’s aimed towards her. Yeah. And there’s a knife in there, but also he says, wait a minute, I also, he makes some comment, I can’t remember what it is, and he picks up something else that we never see and also holds it in front of the camera.

Did you catch that? 

Craig: Uh, I think so. You know, I, again, I, I’m, I’m just kind of an idiot because earlier you were saying during the first kill, you’re like, and he shined some kind of light on her face, and it wasn’t until you said that 20 minutes. That I realized what that was. Right. And so it just goes to show that I’m an idiot because No, because it’s not.

They tell you, you find out at the end what it is. Yeah. I just didn’t even put it together in my head. Mm 

Todd: gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. He’s shining a mirror on them. Well, you don’t find 

Craig: this out until the very end. Correct. Uh, you, you just, uh, it’s deliberately withheld. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: Right. It’s al and, and I mean, spoiler alert, whatever, what he wants, he, he not only wants to capture on film their terror in their dying moments, but he wants them to see it.

Yeah. So that he can also get their reaction to seeing their own 

Todd: terror. It’s pretty. It only makes sense in that it seems like this is what his father did to him. Right? Because after he kills her and apparently stuffs her body in the trunk, which leads to some com, I think, comedy, but dark comedy. Yeah.

Later. He goes back because 

Craig: when? Just because later they’re filming on the set and they find her in there. Yeah. Right. While they’re filming. Right. I don’t know. I don’t know how He didn’t anticipate 

Todd: that. Was he not Well, you know, you’d think that he didn’t anticipate it, but I think he actually meant for them to find it or something.

Because maybe 

Craig: cuz he films the aftermath. 

Todd: Oh, he films the aftermath. He’s very interested in filming everyone’s reaction. Just like he goes at the big, at the beginning, back to film. The police coming to the Uhhuh pick up the bodies as soon as they discover the trunk. It’s not like he’s, he does, he takes no effort to try to.

Divert them or hide the trunk or whatever it was, like he purposely put it on the set and he steals away and he goes up to the wrap. Well, in this case, he, he steals away to the side, grabs a camera, and, uh, starts videotaping their rea, filming their reaction as they open the trunk. And then later when the police are investigating, he sneaks on the set, goes up to the rafters and films it yet again from above when they’re looking at the body and discussing it.

Uh, and almost gets caught. Actually, that’s a bit of a kind of a tense moment. I think it’s very interesting that the film never shows us their bodies. And even in that far away shot from the rafters, it’s, it’s clearly deliberately out of focus. Yes. 

Craig: I found in my notes what he says to her when he af, when he films her dancing, when he is menacing her with this tripod knife.

He says, you know, imagine someone coming towards you. He wants to kill you, but just to kill you isn’t enough for him. And then you assume he kills her because it cuts to black. Yeah, 

Todd: that’s disappointing. Oh 

Craig: God. That is literally the halfway part. And, and I know because that’s where I stopped and I marked it.

That’s the 45 minute mark right there. That’s where, and and, and then this is when we meet Helen and her mom who is blind. And it’s just so funny to me. So they don’t know that Mark owns the house cuz it was his father’s house. And so his, you know, his family is dead so he RINs out the other rooms through an agent or something.

So they don’t know he’s really the landlord, but he lives right above them. And God, I think one of my favorite lines is when Helen and her mom are first talking. Mark and the mom says that she doesn’t trust a man who walks quietly and then talks about it for a while. Like, like, like the man who walks quietly has got something to hide.

Todd: Um, I don’t know. 

Craig: It’s hilarious. Then he, and she, and I really like this actress because she’s charming and not like a starlet. She doesn’t look like, no. The other woman that we were talking about, she’s attractive, looks very much like a, 

Todd: but she’s like 

Craig: girl next door, but like a girl next door. Real person that you would know in real life.

Yeah. But charming and for whatever reason drawn to him and they’re drawn to each other and he likes her and he, you know, she invites him to her party and they 

Todd: kind of talk, well, let’s just say like, I feel like this. You’re right. I, I’m sorry, I’m jumping ahead. She invites him to the party. That’s okay. Go for it.

They talk. And then, uh, he goes back up. He, you know, she, he’s, he’s just super awkward and he’s like, no. She’s like, oh, I finally, I meet you. You know, I’ve seen you so many times, but you’d never, you know, stop to say hi, and I’m Helen and whatever. And he just goes upstairs. And then eventually she comes back up and knocks on the door and she’s brought him a piece of cake.

She interrupts him. He’s watching one of his films. Um, yeah. And, uh, snuff films. Yeah. So he like, kind of quickly kind of hides the, the film back in the, the cabinet and gets out of his dark room into his main room and answers the door. And she comes with a, a piece of cake with a candle still lit on it.

It’s like the cutest thing. Uh, and then she just kind of edges her way in and just kind of chats him up. And, uh, she’s curious and interested about him, which is all very natural. But like you say, he’s, he’s still awkward and weird, but 

Craig: Right. And, and in the interest of time, really over the next 20 minutes or so, they have a cute little courtship.

He’s still doing his. Creeping on other women and killing people thing, but their thing is kind of this, you know, uh, cute little courtship. Yeah. And they talk about the things that they are interested in and, and you know, he talks about being interested in film and she’s interested in that and she’s written a children’s book.

But, um, it’s about, you know, somebody who has a ma you know, the book is about a magic camera and, you know, she has this really specific vision of what she wants the pictures to look like, and would he take the pictures and, you know, so they’re gonna collaborate on this thing and it’s all very sweet. But that’s also where he tells her about his dad.

Yeah. And you’ve, you’ve already alluded to it, His dad was a famous psychiatrist, wrote books and stuff, but like you said, he experimented on the kid and we see the video, and you’ve already kind of explained it, it’s him putting the kid in really kind of inappropriate situations. Like at one point the, you know, the, the black and white camera is showing the kid asleep, and then you see a big lizard thrown right onto his sleeping body and he wakes up and he’s scared of the lizard.

And then another one is, um, him, uh, the little boy at his mother’s deathbed because the dad wanted to get his, you know, genuine reaction to his mother’s death and stuff. And he explains it to her as though it’s not an, like a big deal, like it’s just something that happened. And she, I think, is a little bit weirded out by it.

It’s not like a game changer. Like, she’s like, oh, well 

Todd: that’s weird. I think this is what breaks the ice between them, honestly, because she’s immediately has sympathy for ’em. I mean, it’s like a clear explanation why he’s so weird and it’s not his fault. That seems to be the turning point where like he, she kind of accepts this, he kind of like lets her in on this secret.

She accepts it and now she’s more int you know, they just have a, a closer bond because of it. And he lets his guard down. And this was another reason 

Craig: that it was controversial because the director plays the father in these videos. You only see him very, very briefly. He’s usually behind the camera. And he used his own son to play the young mark.

Um, and people I guess were outraged and thought that it was abusive and that he was basically doing with his son the same thing that the character was doing with his son in the movie by exploiting him for his own purposes and whatever. Oh my God. And I’ve read that like, like years and years and years down the line, the.

Son was asked about this and just laughed it off and said it was the most ridiculous thing you’d ever heard. And watching it, who It doesn’t seem, 

Todd: no, it’s ridiculous. It doesn’t, there’s nothing to it. Yeah. But that being said, uh, in her little memoir, uh, Pamela Green mentioned that, you know, after she had chased all these people off and that she had to go back and get makeup applied to her body so she could come out for her nude scene, as she was laying down, there were two young boys sitting down by the bed watching it.

And she was like, what are these boys doing here? And he was like, those are my sons and I want them to watch this. 

Craig: Yeah. So it does sound like he was weak. 

Todd: He was a little weird, I think was weird. Genuinely a little weird. This guy. 

Craig: Yeah. And I think that she was more than anything else, just surprised. Like I read that too.

And it said she didn’t really care. No. You know, and, uh, she was just surprised, was curious that there were children present. Um, but anyway, you know, I feel like, I mean, he kills that girl and she gets found on set. And so the police are investigating and they interview him, but he doesn’t really say or do anything that causes them any red flags.

At some point they figure out that the last two women who have died, the two women that we’ve seen him kill, both died with expressions of extreme terror 

Todd: on their faces. They’re the same expressions. Oh, please. Oh my God. So stupid. 

Craig: But that’s fine. I mean, it’s funny, it’s a plot of ice. Right. That’s fine.

And then he kills, uh, a offscreen, you, you just see him go to take naked pictures of the blonde that we’ve been talking about, and apparently he kills her and then for some reason they’re onto him. And I don’t remember. 

Todd: I don’t either. Why? I don’t remember either. The whole ending of the movie is kind of a blur to me, to be honest.

The whole, the whole 

Craig: ending is very bizarre because he goes on a nice date with his girlfriend, but he comes home and her mother. Is just creeping in his, in his studio. Yeah. In his dark studio for reasons that I don’t understand, aside from the fact that she says, I come here every night. What? 

Todd: No, I think what she, she means, I think she means metaphorically because she has, you know, she’s blind, she’s super sensitive with her hearing.

She can hear him walking around up there every night. And I think that’s what she, I don’t think she literally means she creeps into his apartment. 

Craig: Okay. Yeah, she does. She says, I didn’t understand what she was talking about. She says the blind will always live in the rooms they live under. Yes. So I think you’re right.

Yeah. I think she, it’s like, it’s as though she’s in the room cuz she hears ’em walking around up there. Right. Um, and then this is a really weird scene where like, I don’t understand why, but he puts on his snuff film while she’s there and it even like projects on his back and partially on her and they have kind of this weird interaction ultimately.

She says that she’s worried about her daughter, and he says, you don’t have to worry about her. I’ll never photograph her, I promise. And the mom threatens to move them away, but I, I think that she’s satisfied with his promise. And then, uh, I guess she goes downstairs satisfied. Eventually, Helen brings it, took me a while to figure out what it was, but I think it’s her manuscript that she’s giving him a copy of so that he can take pictures for it.

Um, but he’s not home, so she leaves it in the studio and then she’s just out of curiosity, turns on his projector and we don’t even see what she sees. We just see the horrified look on her face. He shows up and won’t look. Yeah. He says, I can’t, I can’t see you. Frightened. He’s protecting you. I mustn’t 

Todd: see you frightened.

He doesn’t wanna get turned on or wants to start photographing it yet. Right. He’s afraid he’s gonna kill her. Yeah. 

Craig: Right. And they, I don’t know, it’s this weird kind of, she knows now what he is and, and she is frightened, but it’s like she’s torn or 

Todd: something. I don’t know. Aren’t the cops showing up at this point?

I, yes. I don’t remember. I don’t know why I don’t, 

Craig: I don’t know. They’re onto him somehow. They, because Oh, the, he, he did something suspicious and so they started following him and they followed him and saw that he went to that shop. Oh. So I’m guessing that they found her body Oh boy. And knew it must be him.

So they came to his house and then at this point he confesses to her that all of the rooms in the house are bugged. Apparently his dad did that to supply on him. Yeah. And hi, he said his dad was a voyeur. And then, God, I don’t know Todd. Like, I feel like it’s Artie and I don’t get it. Um, he, he’s like, do you know what the most frightening thing in the world is?

It’s fear. Okay, alright. Do you know what the hottest thing in the world is? Heat.

And, and, and so then, so he puts the knife to her throat and, and this is when he reveals that he made them watch their own death. So you see the mirror and her staring into the mirror, but the cops arrive and he busts out his blacked out window to film them. And then he turns on the film of his murders and films himself impaling himself on.

Thing I read somewhere, I don’t even remember where I read it, but it just very matter of, matter-of-factly said, as he had always intended to do. Did we know 

Todd: that? Like, I don’t think so. 

Craig: I, I, I mean it is a good end for his movie. Yeah. Maybe that, maybe that was always, uh, gonna be the end. He just didn’t know when it was gonna happen.

I don’t know. But whatever. I think 

Todd: it’s a fine interpretation. He’s dead. He doesn’t bleed. Yeah, he doesn’t bleed. No, nobody bleeds. But he does 

Craig: fall onto the ground in the most contorted, odd way I’ve ever seen. So weird. And, and she just kind of collapses onto his body and weeps as the police come in.

Mm-hmm. And you hear very faintly in the background, the voice of his father saying, don’t be a silly boy. There’s nothing to be afraid of. And then you hear the little boy’s voice say, goodnight daddy. And then it cuts to black. Mm. 

Todd: A little creepy. 

Craig: It’s creepy. It’s fine. I’m not giving it the credit. It’s due from a technical perspective, it’s very interesting to watch.

And if you’re interested in filmmaking, you should for sure watch it. Um, you know that I’m just not a big fan of old movies. There are some old movies that I really, really, really like, but I don’t go outta my way to watch them. It’s just not my thing. Um, it, it wasn’t bad. I didn’t hate it. I could tell that it was well made.

I just wasn’t particularly invested in the story. I thought the story was a little silly, but, uh, it was fine. And, and I get, nah, I’m not gonna lie. I’m just lying. I was gonna say, I get why people like it so much. I don’t really, but whatever they do. So I guess I’m just missing 

Todd: something as a story. It’s a little convoluted and over the top at times.

Maybe parts of it are a bit on the nose. It’s like, you know, we get it. It feels a little unworldly. But you know what, like I said, a lot of movies at this time were, and so you Right. Things were just a little more presentational. And I actually like watching that every now and then. And so, sure. I, I, I really liked that aspect of this movie.

I love the clean colors and the beautiful photography and the interesting angles, but also, um, I don’t know if we diverge here, but like, I just really feel like it was a, I thought it was an interesting character study. I thought it was at least as interesting a character study as any of the other ones that, you know, we’ve seen and talked about for its time and the limitations of what they were able to portray and show.

Mm. I sympathize with this guy. I was also creeped out by this guy, and I think I was genuinely nervous about what he was ca I was genuinely interested in what he was capable of and what he was going to do next, and what was his end game and what was the point behind all this. And I thought the movie did a pretty good job of eventually laying that all out in small doses while keeping me a little confused at times.

Mm-hmm. When you got a movie called Peeping Tom, that’s about voyeurism and sight, you know, to have a blind woman be a key element of it and a part of the mm-hmm. Like, nobody would dare to do that today. That’s, you know, that’s a little too, uh, that’s, that’s definitely delving into arthouse territory, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. So, uh, so I understand like, yeah, some of it’s just kind of, kind of ridiculous in that way, but as a piece of film, as a piece of art, trying to prove a particular point, evoke mood, service, a theme, and explore it a bit, you know, I, I get all that stuff and I enjoyed watching it. So, uh, but also, you know, it’s, it for me, this, watching this movie was very similar to how I feel about watching these glos from the seventies.

I just, I really enjoyed seeing Britain at this time. I liked seeing, yeah, this kind of like weird sexual moors where guys were going into like shady places and in their own coded ways like, Postcards of nude women on them, like, I mean this. Yeah. And this guy who has a little secret studio upstairs where he is, got these half nervous girls up there, and one of ’em who’s like seen it all and doesn’t give a shit, you know?

Mm-hmm. He’s taken their pictures. I don’t know. It just presented this kind of world that I just liked being in for a little while. It was, you know, I can’t time travel, but sometimes through these movies, it feels like a little bit of time travel for. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. I’m glad to have seen it because I feel like it’s, oh, I don’t know.

It, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of notorious, you know, it ha, it’s, it’s, it has an established place in horror cinema history, so I’m glad to have seen it so that I can be part of that conversation. Hmm. Um, I, I wouldn’t watch it again, but again, it’s, there have been movie. Recently that we’ve watched that I was mad, I had wasted my time.

And I don’t, I don’t feel that about this. I, I think that it’s, uh, definitely worth seeing. So, yeah, I, I, I appreciate the, uh, recommendation cuz this would never be one that I would’ve picked, but I am glad to have seen it. Well, 

Todd: Thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend.

Find us on Patreon, patreon.com/chainsaw podcast, find out how you can support our podcast. Be a part of choosing films, uh, for us to watch just like Chase today. Thank you, Chase, for being a patron and thank you for suggesting this film for us. We really appreciate it. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.