2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

This week, we asked Todd’s friend, Andres, to join us and pick out a flick to chat about. He chose The Nun – one of the many films in the Conjuring Universe. It was our least favorite (which seems to be the consensus), but we had an absolute ball ragging on it.

Incidentally, Andres is a gamer as well as a horror fan, and he joined us for a separate discussion on The Last Of Us TV and game series for our Patrons. If you’re interested, head over to our Patreon page to see how YOU can join our Loyal Listenership and get access to our growing stable of monthly minisodes like this!

The Nun (2018)

Episode 339, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. 

Craig: I’m Todd. 

Todd: And I’m Craig. And today we have a very special guest with us. Say hello, Andres.

Andres: Hello everyone. It’s pleasure to be here in the show once again.

Todd: Andres is a great friend of our, of mine, uh, here in Beijing. And, uh, we actually had him with us on one of our minisodes that we did for our patrons.

We did two minisodes actually talking about The Last Of Us miniseries. And Andres being a gamer like me and a fan of the show, like me and Craig, um, all got together for our patrons and recorded a couple mini episodes about that. So if you’re interested in listening to that, just pop on over to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast and find out how you two can be a patron of the show.

So, commercial aside, we had so much fun with Andre, so we decided to have him join us for a regular podcast here, and he got to pick the movie for us this week and the film that we are doing. The nun from 2018 Andres, what made you decide for us to watch the nun this week? 

Andres: I, I gotta tell you, like for me, I, I’ve seen many, many characters that they are very iconic on, in, in horror movies, but for some reason, the nun.

Really made me gimme the, the, the, the, the scares I collect little toys with, with from characters, you know, like I got Penny Wise, I got a

Todd: Oh really?

Andres: Yeah. And, and from Necca for the brand. Necca and the only character that I am, that I don’t dare to collect. At least not yet. It’s precisely The Nun, because I still find it so scary that that even, I mean, it doesn’t matter about the movies, it’s just the character itself.

Like I don’t know if it’s because of, if he’s, because he’s a nun and then there is like some, you know, like. Something related to, to, to the, to the religion. That is something that is so vivid and so excellent. That is always there. That makes me feel that it’s, that it’s too scary and I, and I cannot even have it as a toy.

I don’t even know how people can have like, like posters in the room of the nun. I mean, I mean, I go to, I know a friend of mine, he, he actually got a poster of the, of the, of the film, you know, like the headshot of the nun, and then when you turn off the light, The eyes, they glow. Oh my God. Imagine. How is that?

No, 

Todd: he just wants to punish himself. This friend. No, man, this is, or maybe he’s trying to keep his wife and kids out of the room. Who knows? 

Andres: So, yeah. Anyway, so, so yeah, I think, I think it’s, it’s, it is the time to, to talk a little bit about the nun, because we have seen the nun in, in, in, in previous movies anyways, from the, from the Conjuring series. 

Todd: Yeah, I’d never actually seen The Conjuring part two yet. Believe it or not. I’ve, I’ve been, that’s a movie that I’ve tried to start like two or three times and for whatever reason got pulled away and never got to, to start it off. I think she at least shows up in the second one, and maybe in Annabelle as well.

That’s also in the Conjuring.

Craig: yeah. And, and I think I read that supposedly in the Conjuring one. Um. The Warren woman, whatever her name is, has a, a really, really scary vision. And even though we don’t see it supposedly in the universe, that was supposed to have something to do with the nun too. So Oh, supposedly the nun has been Yeah, I know, right?

Well, they, they, they, even, they, they backtrack on the story because they show clips from the Conjuring two in this movie. But they replaced the original actor with an actor in this movie. So like, they’re really working hard to tie all these things together, 

Todd: push it all together. They, they pulled a George Lucas on it, didn’t they?

Yes, they did. They 

Andres: did. They did. Wow. They, they have been doing that. There is how many films related from the, from the universe? I think it’s like six or seven. If no more, bunch a bunch of them, and they are somehow connected. You got, I mean, there is one that is, uh, uh, Laona, that is like, uh, one of those Yes.

Latino American. I didn’t know that. Uh, like it was actually connected to them. Well, obviously when, when you watch the, the, the, the movie, then you realize you start connecting the dots. But even Laona made it to the country in universe. That’s crazy. Yeah. One of those legends from Latin America that is in every country in Latin.

Animated there, so Yeah. Well, I I, I’ve seen it all. I’ve seen it all for, some of them might be little bit, let’s say boring. Some of us are really good in my opinion, but yeah, I mean they are, they, they really created a universe about it and I’m sure like they’re going to continue like milking that dot cow.

Oh 

Todd: God, yeah. I think so. This is 

Craig: the highest grossing of all of them and the least critically acc. 

Todd: It’s crazy. Yeah. Well, it’s not crazy. That’s pretty typical for horror sometimes. Sometimes the most, you know, the best grossing movies are not as widely critically received, but I don’t even think the general public, I don’t know it You depend, do you count really what Rotten Tomato says?

You know, when they talk about the audience O meter versus the critical O meter, you know. I don’t know. Sometimes, maybe in this case I do know that, you know, when we were talking about the Conjuring universe, the, the, the original Conjuring, the first two films and the whole universe really is based around this, uh, the Warrens, right?

Who were these real life? Yeah. Those are real characters. Yeah, real life paranormal investigators. And so, you know, they wrote some books and they have, you know, many different stories and artifacts to tell. And so it’s kind of ripe material for doing a, a controversy or whatever. But this, I think, is the only movie so far in the series that’s not really, that’s completely made up by the, the writers and directors and not related to anything the Warrens actually did in real.

Craig: Hmm. I don’t know if it’s the only one, but it is one of them. Like there is, there is a real Annabelle doll and there’s real lore behind that. And, um, yes, the first couple of movies were about, you know, real life cases and, um, they’ve alluded to, Amityville, which the Warrens were involved. Right, right. With, they haven’t done that movie, and I don’t know if they will.

And, and the curse of Laona is, you know, uh, a myth or a cultural, uh, folklore type thing. I don’t know. The, the, the most recent one, I think was called like the devil Made me Do It or something. 

Andres: I don’t remember what it was. Of the, of the country. Yeah. Yeah. It’s called like that, the, the development, which is also based in the real story.

Was it? I didn’t. Yes, it was based of a real story, and there is because after I watched this movie, I obviously, as usual, I will just go to internationally, this, this gotta be real because of, you know, all this, the country in the universe. Mm-hmm. And yeah, there is this serial killer or whatever that, that keep saying that all the time.

Like the devil made me, made me do it. So, yeah, they, they took elements from there, from, from a real story. I see. I, as you say, like Yeah. The nun, I don’t, I don’t think that there is, besides many of the, of the elements that they use in the movie that they are, of course, from real lore. Sure, sure. But, but not related.

But not related to the original characters. To the Lorraine and 

Todd: Ed. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Craig, I’d never seen this before. How. I told 

Craig: you, you texted me, this is what we’re doing. And you were like, have you seen it? And I said, yeah, I’ve seen it and I don’t remember anything about it. Which is usually not a great sign, not a good sign.

Um, so yeah, I had seen it, but 

Todd: that, but that sometimes means that, you know, this was playing while you were grading papers at school, and so you were only paying attention. I don’t know. I 

Craig: like these movies. I like the Conjuring movies. I think I’ve seen ’em all. I don’t know, there’s several Annabelle movies.

I don’t know if I’ve seen them all. I think I have, but I, I like. The series in general. I wasn’t a big fan of the Devil made me do it. I don’t remember much about it either. Um, so, you know, I went, oh, and I really like Tasa Fara, uh, a lot. Oh, she’s great. I like her a lot. Uh, she was the star of one of our favorite movies that we’ve ever done.

Yes. Um, the Final Girls, oh, 

Todd: don’t make me cry, Craig. 

Craig: And she was also in two or three seasons of American Horror Stories. She was in the first season and she was in Coven, and I think she reprised her role from Coven in a later season. Um, I really like her. I hate this movie.

I hate it. I was angry watching it. 

Todd: Oh, you were rage watching this movie, huh? Yeah. I 

Craig: hate it. It, uh, the thing that I hate about it is that it’s scary. None scary castle hot comic relief guy. Boom. That’s it. That’s the whole movie, and it makes me really 

Todd: mad. 

Andres: It, it was very predict. Very 

Todd: predictable. Oh God.

Was it predictable? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, 

Craig: there was nothing to it. There’s no plot to this movie. Like there’s a, there’s a scary nun. Let’s investigate. Oh yeah. There’s a scary nun. They’re more creepy nuts. Jump scare. Jump scare. Jump scare. Hot comic relief guy. Jump, scare. Jump. Scare. That’s it. 

Todd: I, I have to say I was really, um, after a while I thought, how many cliches can you put in here?

Oh, you know. Oh man. Oh, the person looking in the mirror and, oh, okay. There’s gonna be a nun behind her in the mirror. Yep. Sure enough, there she is. How many times did she approach a praying nun? And we knew that that wasn’t actually gonna be a praying nun. Oh, it’s a don’t corpse. It’s a liar. They 

Craig: refuse to investigate that any further.

Oh, it just infuriates me. Like they, they walk into this ridiculously rundown castle convent, whatever it is that looks like it’s been unha uninhabited for centuries, and there’s just this nun. Kneeling their praying, who refuses to face them, has their back to them the whole time, and they just accept that like, that’s okay.

You don’t have to look at us. This isn’t weird or spooky at all. And, and then there’s this lurking nun, all the goddamn time, like just every, everybody out of the blue. 

Andres: There’s Nu comes out. Yeah, 

Craig: there’s a nun just lurking like in the background and they’ll see it like sneak around a corner. And there’s one part where Ta Taza Fara is following this lurking nun around and she keeps going like, Hey sister, hey.

And like this nun leads her. To Helen back, and she just, she just keeps following her. Like I would be like, uh, could you stop? Like I’m talking to you? Hello? No, she’s, Hey. Excuse me. Excuse me. Oh my God. It drove me 

Todd: nuts When Father Burke leaves the castle and he’s chasing after this like, boy who looks suspiciously like this boy from his past, and he doesn’t call out a single word.

Yeah, he 

Andres: just randomly running around. Ah, that, that’s one of those glitches as well. Yeah. Like this, this boy that, I don’t know why they have to put a zombie boy there when they already have like a, like a scary enough character, but they had a bunch of just random stuff that is definitely not needed. I, I gotta tell you, like I, I thought that this movie, or at least the character itself, the nun, they could have done something very cool about it because as I say, I, I think this character.

Iconic is scary. Mm. But this movie was not, I told you this, this, at some points, it feels like an adventure movie more than a horror movie. 

Craig: Mm. Yeah. I totally agree with you. That the character is scary and they could have done something cool with the character, and hopefully they will in part two because Yep.

Part two is in pre-production. Hmm. Valek, the Demonn who takes on this nun’s, you know, persona or whatever is scary and was really scary in the conjuring two, like the nun in the Conjuring two. Super scary right here. Not at all. Not at all. Just a scary nun that just pops up every once in a while. It looks like a, like a viral video of a scare show or something like, ah, scary nun.

Like, that’s it. 

Todd: It’s like you’re getting Rick rolled by this nun through the whole movie, right? Yes. Well, there are also, I have a lot of questions about the plot and why any of this is happening at all, because it starts out with this Abbey and Romania. And by the way, if I’m gonna say good things about this movie, all right, number one, we’ve already established the nun is freaky as hell as a character, right?

Number two, the atmosphere. Was on its own really, really Halloween. It was just utterly creepy up one side and down the other. Every time it’s dark outside, there’s smoke creeping along the ground and crosses hanging and shadows and stuff. This castle in Romania? In Romania, yeah. Yeah. This convent that they, um, You know, in the movie is an actual castle in, uh, Romania.

It’s called, uh, Corbin Castle. Cor Corbin Castle. Corbin 

Andres: Castle, which is supposed to be, uh, a monastery, a past monastery called a Karta monastery. But the Karta monastery is actually in ruins. So, and they actually pick up this castle that looks, and that is in, is in Romania? Precisely in Travenia, Pennsylvania.

Yeah, you’re right. It’s in Travenia. It’s in Travenia. Mm-hmm. Yep. So just to add a little bit more to the. And today, that’s what I’m saying. Like you, you put all these things together and you’re like, okay, they’re going to come up with something pretty. But, okay, let’s carry on with the, the, the cool things.

Start, carry on. 

Craig: No, no, you’re right. It, it looks beautiful. It’s shot beautifully. I mean, it, it shows, it is, its budget. It most, if not all of it is shot on locations. The exterior filming is, is all very beautiful. Like I don’t have any complaints about that. The acting isn’t bad. No. I don’t know. Like I liked the acting, and don’t get me wrong, the comic relief.

Frenchy, super charming, super cute. I totally liked him. It was just such a corny inclusion into the movie. It was. And, and Taza PGA again, I love her. I think she’s miscast in this movie. I don’t know if she feels too young and too wide-eyed. Like I, I don’t buy her as being strong enough to deal with this on her own.

Right. Um, and, and it drives me nuts and it shouldn’t. I know that it shouldn’t, but it drives me nuts that she looks so much like her sister Vera fga, that you have to assume that there’s some sort of familial. Connection between them. I thought that’s what they were 

Todd: trying to do. 

Craig: No, according to the trivia and stuff, no, there’s not the, the director was even hesitant to cast her in the movie because the two of them are related.

But he was so amazed by her audition that he, that he just had to cast her. Oh. But then at the end, like, I can only imagine that people who may not know that Taja Fara and Vera Fara are sisters. They in the very, very last scene where they cut back to the Warrens in the future, and they’re showing this footage from the Conjuring two, but they’ve, they’ve changed it, um, to insert Frenchy into it.

They show. A still of Vera fga as a younger woman screaming and it looks exactly like tasa fga. Yeah. Like how could you miss it? Yeah. 

Todd: They’re not, they’re, they’re creating no distance there. They’ve got one shot, boom is, uh, her is um, Vera fga, and then boom, another shot is tasa fga. And it, you know, it looks like the filmmakers trying to draw some distinction, like I thought, oh, well maybe in the nun too, there’s gonna be a, some literal connection.

Like she’s her ancestor or something like that. Yeah. 

Andres: I, I was thinking something like this. I, I was trying to make some numbers there. I was thinking maybe, maybe bega was, was, I mean, the, the nu not the nun, this young nun was like the younger self. Mm-hmm. But I was like, okay, the numbers, they don’t connect here because that was supposed to happen like in 1952.

And then when we see her on the, at the country, doesn’t. In the seventies, so Yeah. But yeah, maybe, maybe like somebody from the past and, and she also has these visions. Mm-hmm. Right, right. We never, so, which Yeah. 

Todd: Which, which Elizabeth Warren has too. The visions. Yeah, that’s right. 

Andres: Exactly. So then you are like, maybe she’s like a grandmother.

She decided not to be a nun. She’s a nu 

Todd: Yeah.

Andres: I mean, I mean, if you remember that she’s, she wants to be a nun and she wasn’t really, or. Can we do a spoils here or not? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who cares? Nobody really cares. So, so till actually get or ordained by, by, by the priest. But then at the end, it supposed, according to the, to the tradition, like if you get ordained as a nun, you cannot.

Take out the habit anymore, right? You need to dress. I said no. And then at the end of the movie, she’s just wearing normal clothes again. Mm-hmm. So maybe just thinking like, okay, well I don’t want to be known this, this was a little bit too too scary, or it was too intense for me and I just don’t want to be known anymore.

I will have. Children and then she will have better for me in the future.

Craig: Not only in that final scene is she wearing normal clothes, but she’s wearing much more modern and trendy clothes than she’s true, true in, in any other part of the movie. True. Like even before, you know, she’s a novice or whatever you call them in the beginning, and so she wears like a white habit. She’s, she’s not ordained, but even when you see her in her civvie, You know, she’s wearing like very, very modest clothes.

Um, and, and that’s not to say that her clothes in the end aren’t modest, but she’s wearing a short skirt and, yeah, I don’t know. It’s all very confusing. 

Todd: Not, not attire well, the whole movie’s a little confusing, I think. Uh, yeah. My questions go back to the very first, well, there would be I guess the second scene, because I think the first scene is this flashback to the conjuring.

We get the Aine, Romania, and these, these ladies are walking. An almost laughably creepy corridor in, 

Craig: um, it’s freaking foggy in 

Todd: there. What? It’s foggy inside 

Andres: corridor. More foggy than it should be. It almost looked like a, like a, one of, like this video from, from Michael Jackson that there is some, somebody there, you know, like there is fog coming out.

Okay. Fog inside the castle. That there is, there is, there is. There is candles around. There shouldn’t be any fog and then there is fog in the cast. I don’t know, man. I 

Todd: was thinking, you know, universal does these Halloween horror nights. Yeah. And by God, if they haven’t done a haunted house, you could walk through based on the nun.

They need to, because this movie is chock full of it, this corridor with the smoke, and then they have like a thousand crosses hanging from the ceiling and coming out of the floor down this long corridor to a door that says God ends. And these two nuns are standing there looking very nervous, and one of them has a freaky key that they have to open the door for.

And she says, you know, we have to do this. So she opens the door, she goes into the darkness, and of course there’s some screaming, and she reaches out and she’s a little bloody. And she says, 

Craig: this evil needs a vessel to escape. It will come after you next. Don’t let it have you. You know what?

Not even. 

Todd: And so this nun grabs the key, runs upstairs to a room and, uh, in a very dramatic scene. Leaps out and hangs herself from the top floor of this Abby, which is, again, it’s all very dramatic. I mean, it’s a great setup, I think. But then as the movie goes on and I go back to the scene over and over again, and by the end of the movie, I’m like, why did they ever and open that door in the first place?

Right? Why 

Craig: were they going in there? I don’t get it. Like, I guess, okay, so they kind of explain it later that this is during world. Two. I thought this took place in the fifties, so that doesn’t even make 

Todd: it took place sense. Well, this was just after World War ii, I think. 

Craig: Okay. So they said that the bombing from the war reopened this gate that some other priests had previously sealed with.

Some ancient relic that contained the blood of Christ. Come on. Okay. This is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard in my entire life. I’m telling you in my entire life, it’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. 

Andres: This is Indiana Jones reference that I was talking about, Todd, like seriously, like there is the relic that you need to do something, and that is she got this vision about the virgin and they.

Mary points the way, and then you see a version with a finger pointing, and there is a light coming out of the finger point from the finger pointing to a, to a, to a door that literally says there is something inside here, put the, the, the freaking key. And again, then you, it’s supposed to be hidden there forever, and then they open it and then it’s just like clean, so golden, so pure.

Not even, not even some, some, some spider nets. Nothing. It’s just like, 

Craig: And she hears that Mary points the way thing like at the beginning of the movie, and there’s that statue of Mary pointing. Pointing, but it, it never occurs to her until later when it’s convenient. 

Todd: Right? This thing that haunted her as a child, right, has to be reminded of it by the priest who told her the story, who she told the story to.

Right. I’m standing with this so dumb. It’s pretty, it’s pretty crazy. Now, to be fair, like, you know, the church has relics, right? The church 

Craig: has, they don’t have any relics of Christ. Like 

Todd: I have the, they do have, like, there’s a place that supposedly, 

Craig: there may, there may be splinters of the cross. There may be places that claim to have splinters of the cross, but there can’t, there are no relics of Christ.

Christ was. Ascended body and soul to heaven, 

Todd: but not like his fingernail clipping or something like that before he left. 

Craig: Nothing like that. And certainly not a V, not a, not an Easter egg full of blood. There is a blood, which is what 

Todd: they have. There’s a blood of Christ Relic. I’m gonna Google this right now.

I’m pretty sure there is. Well, it’s a lie. Okay. You know, like 

Andres: now that you mention about it, like. Think about the relic itself, how big it was. It was like the size of a, like, like a, like a fache egg. Like a dog egg. Yeah, yeah, like a fge egg. And then inside there is a little, a little vessel, like, like with, with some blood on it, but very little, very little.

I gotta ask you guys thinking about, because I, I like when the movies, they connect the points and the dots and, and, and it made sense how in the world. She could suck that blood from that little Oh God pile. Underwater, underwater, 

Todd: underwater. And then when did she bite? Through the glass? 

Andres: Yeah, through the glass.

I don’t know how she did that and then throw it to the demonn, but it was like a massive amount. I don’t know how she, yeah, where she got through much blood of her mouth. To melt the shit out of the demonn. I mean, ah, these things, they really piss me off. I, I saw, I remember when I, when I saw, when I saw this, I was like, oh, come on.

Craig: No, no, no. And that’s not, I mean, it’s, it’s a movie, so you have to suspend your disbelief. And it’s not to say that that wasn’t satisfying. I mean, I saw it coming a mile away. When Tasa FGA spit the blood in the demon’s face, like, I saw it coming, that’s fine. It was satisfying. But no, it doesn’t make any kind of logical sense.

No, no. Todd, I was going to concede to you that Catholics believe that when you bless wine, it literally becomes the blood of Christ. I’m aware of that, but so that could be what they’re talking about. I looked 

Todd: it up in bruises. In Belgium, there is a basilica of the holy blood, and they supposedly have a, well, they have a relic that is supposed to be a cloth with the blood of Jesus.

So it’s not in a vial, but 

Andres: it, it’s called the I, 

Todd: there’s a couple shrouds that are supposedly are stained with blood, like the sudar of Of Oviedo, which is similar to the shroud of Tur, right? Shroud of, yeah, the 

Andres: shroud of tur. That’s the one that I was talking like, think. 

Craig: Fine, whatever. It’s stupid. There are no fache eggs filled with Christ’s judges laying 

Todd: around.

Well, well, 

Andres: I’m completely 

Todd: fresh. Here’s what I don’t get. The way I interpret this is, okay, so as you said, the backstory is that this guy, um, opened a portal to hell in the basement of this castle. 

Craig: The guy who built the castle, that was his whole purpose. He was like trying to summon demons and shit. 

Todd: And he did.

And you know, it’s, he opened this gate to hell and blah, blah, blah. But then, uh, the people came in, uh, from the crusades or whatever, and uh, sealed it with the relic. They happened to have on them by dropping a, a drop of blood on it. And then that sealed it. And then of course, uh, they killed him. And then the church took over the castle and turned it into a, Yeah.

Where the nuns in the Abbey keep constant vigil. They are constantly praying in shifts. Perpetual adoration, right? Perpetual adoration to keep the evil at bay and make sure that it doesn’t come out anymore. Okay? When Father Burke is summoned to investigate the, uh, hanging of this girl, why? Isn’t he warned by the church elders or the people in the Vatican?

Hey, by the way, in case you hadn’t heard, this is the history behind this place. Why is this something he has to discover by talking by? Eventually it comes out, actually, it comes out through con to her, through conversation with apparently a ghost. But isn’t this the kind of thing the church keeps tabs on, where their relics are, where their abbies are?

They had enough tabs on this Abbey that they’ve got people. You know, they gotta send nuns out, right? And they knew about the hanging, it was reported to them. They send Father Burke out to investigate, but they don’t say anything else. Father Burke just shows up and has to learn all about the history of this Abbey, it’s whole reason for existence in the first place.

And they didn’t even bother saying, oh, by the way, also, um, make sure those nuns are still praying. Cuz if they’re not, you’re gonna have a problem. 

Craig: Right? Like presumably their concern is about the evil. Hole 

Todd: in 

Craig: the basement. So, so, so, right. So why wouldn’t they tell them that it doesn’t make any sense. And they send, they’re like, oh, and by the way, uh, take Nurse Irene with you because she’s from there.

No, she’s not like, oh man, it doesn’t make any later. She’s like, I’m not, I was maybe born there, but I’ve never even been there. So like, it’s just dumb. And then they go and they run into, I mean, they meet Frenchy. That’s cute. And there’s, there’s, there’s jokes. Ha ha, there’s, you know, funny, oh, I put my bag on the truck when I should have put it on the horse and buggy.

That’s funny. And then they get to the castle and start meeting all of these creepy ass nuns. It doesn’t make any sense. Who are these nuns? Like, so were these the. That did live there, but now they’re all dead. But they still also are doing the perpetual adoration. 

Todd: I think the last two nuns were killed.

Well, the one committed suicide. There were only two nuns left. The one who went into the door, um, she died, obviously, and she’s said to the other girl, you know what you need to do. And so that woman killed. But I don’t understand why that’s what she needed to do. She says the demonn needs a vessel to escape.

So, uh, presumably this nun is killing herself so that she won’t be a vessel. But can’t this demonn like, walk around and find another 

Andres: vessel? Well, there is, it is supposed to be like some, some crosses around the castle to keep the evil inside or, or, yeah, to keep the evil inside. Like if he was. Pirate or something.

I don’t know, but So it should 

Todd: have been like, she should have run out. She should have run past the crosses and warned somebody. Yeah, 

Andres: that’s Cause there’s a deep, don’t go back there. You don’t need to, you don’t need to kill your, so just run 

Todd: away and keep them. We stopped praying. 

Craig: Yeah. And again, spoiler alert, it doesn’t matter because this movie doesn’t have any plot.

But in the end, it turns out Frenchie is possessed. Is Frenchie possessed the whole time? And if not, why not? Why didn’t Valek just like possess 

Todd: Frenchie to be done with it right in the beginning? Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Ah, I don’t get it. It doesn’t make any sense. So, so then they show up to investigate and it is, it’s just a, a bunch of, there’s jump scares, galore, just silly things that don’t even matter.

Like Yeah. I, I feel like they, they zombie boy let’s, yeah, the zombie boy. Let’s just think of a bunch of scary. And put them in the movie like the, the, the, the bloody dripping nun hanging. But then once she’s gone, uh, the blood still is fresh all the time, or, yeah. Oh, I put the body in the tomb laying down, but now it’s sitting up.

And now that’s scary. Oh, oh. Once I exercised a boy and it went badly, surprise, here he is. And he’s gonna lead me out to the graveyard where he’s gonna vomit a snake in my face and then bury me alive. Bury me alive. Uh, grave that is not fresh. Like, and, and none of this like it. It’s as though he’s been buried there for years.

Yeah. And that’s just comp they, well, she even says that No, nobody bats an eye. She, and then like, I’m supposed to believe that TASA Fara dug that guy’s grave up. No, I don’t believe that. She didn’t even have any shoes on. How 

Todd: is she gonna like finish the shovel in? I love, I love how the priest inside the coffin, once his flashlight runs out, gets the bright idea to.

A lighter that he had on hand so that he can see the inside of his coffin. I’m thinking, and, and suck 

Craig: up all of his oxygen. 

Todd: Yeah. If you’re buried alive, it’s a last thing you guys should do. By the way, don’t take any tips from this movie and what are you looking for? You’re 

Craig: in a box. Like he, he just, he just lights it up so that he can look down at his feet so that the nun can scare you at his.

Feet, which we knew 

was 

Todd: coming. 

Andres: Yeah, that is obvious. It was obvious that is going to happen. There will be like some hands coming out of somewhere and we knew that It will. It will happen 

Todd: for sure. Why is the radio working in their place? What’s it plugged into? Because there’s no electricity anywhere else in this place.

At least not the of, because they’re walking around with Wait the whole time. Why? Why 

Andres: did he say radio there? 

Todd: Exactly. That’s another 

Craig: question. And it only plays one song. Like is there some significance to that song? No, it’s 

Todd: know, don’t, it’s The minute I saw that radio on, I’m like, oh, we’re gonna get a creepy radio gag because it’s so out of place in this spot.

And again, I, the first thing I was questioning was, where’s the electricity? And why don’t they flip on some lights if they’ve got electric? 

Andres: I know, oh God, there is, there, there is many things that doesn’t make sense. Like for example, at the beginning when they come in and then there is this, like the, the old nun that we never see her face.

Mm-hmm. See, it is not there, but suddenly she’s there and there, but she’s a skeleton. 

Craig: Like, 

Andres: but she’s in a skeleton and, and she’s not even, she doesn’t care. She’s not even, she’s not even wearing like nons clothes. At all. It’s like a veil or something. I I it is like a veil, like a marriage. I don’t know.

Todd: Well, what ends up happening is they get, they get separated. So the, this, this old lady nun, like you said, she tells them come back later because the sisters are about to do their vespers and then they’ve gotta be silent for the rest of the night. So they stay next in the, they have like a building next to the Abbey that’s the guest house, and that’s where creepy things happen and they go out, investigate all the time.

He goes out and investigates, gets buried alive. She then feels compelled for some reason to also go out and investigate where she hears this tiny bell ringing, which, you know, again, it is one of those deals. As soon as I saw them talk about this little. Oh yeah. These are bells that, you know, used to be connected to Graves during the Great Plague.

So if you ended up getting Buried Alive, you could pull on this string and ring the bell and people would know they need to dig you up. I’m like, okay, well clearly either someone’s gonna get buried alive or those bells are gonna start ringing. Right? Yeah, I’m both, both 

Andres: happening. 

Todd: Both happen. Yeah, you can see it from a mile away.

So that, that all that happens. They come back the next morning and when they approach the abbey, the gate opens. And for some reason, the priest whose job is, as he has stated repeatedly to talk to the nuns, he has asked for access to the girls, decides that he can’t go in. Or isn’t gonna go in, he just sends, um, sister Irene in.

Craig: Oh, and take this key and see if you can figure out what it does. It’s so frustrating and it’s, it’s all in service to nothing. Like they’re not there to do anything in particular. They’re not looking for anything in particular. The only reason they’re there. Is to find out about this death and I guess talk to the nuns.

And then he just hangs back for no 

Todd: reason, totally content to just do his research. 

Craig: It’s right. And then he does book, book research. So we get the exposition. The exposition. Oh, it’s a demonn. It’s uh, like the, the, the patron of snakes or something. Ugh. Everything is so stupid because it’s not like they’re not, there’s no, there’s not a mystery.

They’re not trying to solve a mystery. It’s just that there is an evil demonn there that’s messing with them. Like the whole thing with him exercising the boy and it going bad, and then the boy coming back to haunt him, it doesn’t have anything to do with anything. Nothing. Nothing. It doesn’t mean anything.

It’s just this demonn like messing with them and scaring them. And I felt like that all could have happened in 30 minutes. Like this should have been a 30 minute movie because the plot is so convoluted. I think that’s why it made me so angry. Like I felt like it was insulting my intelligence. Like there, there’s nothing going on here and I, I, I imagine that there’s probably an audience for this.

Like, okay, so you’re 17 years old and you want to take a date to a movie around Halloween time and Okay, great. There, it’s, it’s atmospheric. There’s lots of jump scares. You can like, you know, pretend to be scared and snuggle or whatever. That’s fine. But sitting and watching it as a film, no sir. No, this is, this movie is garbage.

I hate 

Todd: it. Craig has very strong feelings about this baby. I do. 

Craig: I was mad about it. I watched it in two separate, like I watched the first half of it, like exactly like, I stopped it at 45 minutes and then I picked it up and watched and, and I was watching the timestamp more closely than I was watching the movie.

Cause like every, I would scroll down and like, you know, see how much was left and I was like, oh my God. Only three minutes has gone by. Like, ugh. It felt it was, it’s only an hour and a half movie. It feels like it’s 14 

Todd: hours 

Andres: long. The movie was all over the place with all the, the, like the jump scares, so that they were very predictable.

Everything was very predictable. Anyways. But I guess what I, what I found about this movie interesting is like I mentioned it before, that it has like this adventure feeling. Mm-hmm. Like Indiana Jones, like a crappy Indiana Jones movie feeling, if you like. Fair. And, and I, I, I watch it during the night and I was hoping, remember what, how I studied that.

For me, the. It’s one of those very scary characters. Well, it wasn’t in this movie, I gotta say. Mm-hmm. I was, I mean, in the conjuring too, I was really scared. Yeah. And, and then when, whenever there was the reference in anywhere in the, in the Conj, in universe, I, I was very scared, but I was expecting much more.

I was expecting, because of course it comes with this story behind that, this fear. That I have for this character. And then I, I watch the movie that is supposed to develop this character to the maximum, but at the end it was just like so obvious. It, it’s, it almost feels like she doesn’t even do anything.

Like she just is scaring you around. But, but that’s really 

Todd: creeping. That’s, that’s the problem. Like, she’s so overused, right? It, it’s either her or it’s another nun. Scary nu or whatever. Scary 

Craig: nun. Well, that’s, that’s the thing. Like what is, what is Val’s endgame? I don’t get it. I, is it just to possess somebody?

Because if it’s just a. To possess somebody, just do it, like quit leading them around on these stupid goose chases throughout the castle. And, and then like, I, I still like, okay, fine. So these nuns that they’re, are, there are like the ghosts of the nuns because then at the end, I guess they find their bodies because they bury like 10 of them.

But what’s 

Todd: the deal there? I don’t 

Craig: get, oh yeah. I don’t understand that. And I don’t understand the part where like all of a sudden it becomes Silent Hill and all of the nuns are in white and they’ve got these gazi bloody things over their 

Andres: face. Okay, I get it. So, you know, now that you mentioned that, so who is actually bringing the, the, the nuns to life is maybe.

Bak himself. He’s the one that is bringing all these, all these, uh, manifestations of fear into, into the, into the characters, I guess, or they’re really the ghost. I mean, because they are, sometimes they, you feel like they’re helping and sometimes definitely they’re not helping. Yeah. So, so who is behind the, and if he’s bak.

Why he will do that so they know how to kill him. Mm-hmm. You know, like they Exactly revealing all the details about him. So I, I don’t understand that. I 

Craig: saw on Wikipedia that like some nuns reviewed the movie and, uh, one of the nuns said that, you know, it, it gets it right that there is a God and that there are evil forces.

But one of the things that it said that it got wrong is, That Demonn couldn’t even appear there. So long as the perpetual adoration is going on, like I I, I guess in, in Catholic dogma, that just wouldn’t even be possible. But supposedly these nuns are dead, so the demonn is continuing having them do the perpetual adoration.

That doesn’t make any sense because the, the prayer that they’re reciting, it’s the Hail Mary. They’re just, they’re doing it. Latin, I don’t know what the real rules for demons are, but you know, historically, according to Christian, Dogma, like, uh, evil spirits or evil, even evil people who are aligned with evil spirits aren’t supposed to be able to pray.

Like stoppage of prayer is one of the main signs of evil involvement. So it’s, it just doesn’t make any sense. The whole thing doesn’t make any sense. How 

Andres: big did, did they know the name of the, of the Demonn? Because it’s supposed that the demons, they hate their names and that’s why, why in the Conjuring, which one was it?

Like the two, I guess? Yeah. Yeah. Like Lorraine actually managed to save her to say herself and her husband by calling him by the name. Right. How these guys, I can’t remember how, how they actually knew the name of the. Was actually, 

Craig: it was in the book. It was in the book was in, it was in the book that very specifically outlined everything about 

Andres: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That’s true. That’s true. That’s true. Yeah. I re 

Todd: which was in the stack of books that they revealed by digging him up out of that grave. So whose grave was that? Oh, I guess it was that guy’s grave. Why did Valek or whoever led him into that grave put him in the grave that would put them on the path to figuring out who he was and how they could sell There you.

Exactly. I don’t understand that. I also don’t get some of these like signs. Like Father, during one of the intense scenes, he’s walking around and he looks down at the crossword puzzle that he’s been doing again earlier. He’s doing a crossword puzzle, which is a weird thing to just kind of call out in a movie.

So I’m like, well, he’s gonna see something in the crossword puzzle later. Oh my God, it’s so stupid and sure. He sees the word deliveries on his crossword. He looks up at the door in front of him and it says deliveries on it. Oh, I better go through that. Like who was guiding him through that door. And then he ends up in the ice house and some corpse breaks out of the ice that looks like the corpse of that woman that they previously buried.

So why is she in the ice now? Or maybe it’s a new corpse that they’re just recent to discover. And then that’s when Frenchy busts. And he saves him by chopping off the head of the corpse and it falls. What are the rules for. Ghosts or demons or whatever, how can you fight them? And they seem supernatural.

They just appear and disappear. But a shotgun blast or chopping off their head stops them dead in their tracks. 

Craig: No. And they’re, they’re like, whatever is doing this is so powerful that it can manifest a whole room full of nuns. But it can’t take out a couple of people like, right. It, it, it, ugh. And, and there’s, I remember there’s one scene where Tasa Vaga is kneeling.

Like she’s praying and she’s kneeling in front of, I don’t know, a big cross. And there’s, there’s a, a whole circle of nuns all around her. And then like there, there’s some sort of like, I don’t know, explosive force that blows all the nuns away from her. And they’re like, Their backs are breaking against pillars and stuff and, um, TASA PGA’s habit gets ripped off so it exposes her back and it carves a, a pentagram in her back and, well that looked cool, but what, like, it doesn’t, doesn’t 

Todd: mean anything.

Then it, and then it doesn’t mean anything anymore. It was just 

Craig: something that happened. Let’s, 

Andres: let’s not forget that these nuns are supposed to be ghost so they know how the hell they are breaking on the, I 

Todd: dunno. I don’t know, but here’s the ultimate question I have. Okay? So by this point in the movie, all this shit has gone down and somehow they’ve pieced together that they need to find the relic so that they can seal the nun back up, right?

And Mary decides she knows where the relic is. She thinks it’s behind that door that literally says there is no God behind. Behind here. You’re right. The same area that they seal off where the evil is that they’re not supposed to go into. So why the is the relic being kept down there? I don’t know.

Shouldn’t they be keeping the relic upstairs away from the evil place so you don’t have to go through the evil place to get it just in case you need it again? And if you 

Craig: had the blood of Christ, would you keep it in a light bulb like it’s in, it’s in the thinnest glass, the thinnest, most transparent glass you can possibly imagine, and it’s lasted for centuries.

And then you can take a bite out of it like it’s an apple, and suck the fresh blood out of it underwater under water and spit it in the face of the demonn. And that’s how you kill the demonn, apparently. And then the demonn gets flushed down the toilet. And then, then the nun tasa is in a pool of water that is literally maybe three foot feet deep, and you see this shot of Frenchy swimming down to her like she has sunk with the Titanic, and he is going, and then he grabs her and just stands up, like it’s literally like two 

Todd: or three feet of.

My hero, thank God. 

Craig: That shot of him swimming down. I’m like, where are we? I mean, I know, I, I realize that we’re in the toilet because five feet away, the demonn is getting sucked down the toilet. 

Todd: Oh, God. Well, it’s just a whole bunch of big, beautiful, gorgeous set pieces. Oh, it looks. Really inventive angles and things like that, and, you know, that’s really all it is, right?

It’s, they’ve just, everything else, kind of, the story itself, the logic kind of falls 

Craig: apart and that’s what it was criticized for. Yeah. I mean, if, if you look, if you, yeah, no, 

Andres: like, like it was criticized precisely for, for that. Because there is no continuity. There is no connections. Everything is all over the place is predictable, so.

Yeah, but even like that is the most, then, the most successful one in terms of numbers, so, yep. Fair, fair, fair enough. I just hope that the, the, the new one that they’re going to make in, in, in the future at least gets a little bit better than this because, I don’t know. 

Craig: No, me too. And I, I agree with you. I agree with you that the character, that that something good could be done with the character cuz it is a scary character.

Those were, those are the moments that I remember from the Conjuring too. Was that painting. Yeah, the painting of the nun. That was scary. And then it, it. Later in the movie appearing outside of the painting, that was really scary and ominous and it just doesn’t translate. I, I feel like maybe we see too much of the nun in this movie, and it doesn’t, she doesn’t really do a whole lot except she doesn’t do anything.

Yeah. So, yeah, I get it. I, I agree with you. I hope, uh, that they can do something better with the. 

Andres: I, I still cannot, cannot, uh, forget how when the priest goes into the batan, he enters into this chamber where all these cardinals are there looking and they look like a, like a mob, like, like a gangsters, like a mafia, guys.

And then you gotta do that. Don’t ask questions. We are not going to tell you anything. You just go there, pick up that girl, and then just go and investigate. And they have like the most evil faces ever in the world. I d. That was just something that I thought that it was a little bit funny for me. Yeah.

It’s 

Todd: always these kind of movies. Also, like you said, the Indiana Jones ish type movies too, that always portray the officials of the church in a very, very bad light, 

Craig: don’t they? Yeah, they do. They do. I don’t know how fair that is. The church is pretty shady or has been historically, but Fair enough. Yeah.

Portrayal, uh, in these types of movies. Very positive. You, ah, man. I Andres, I, I’m, I’m sorry. You know, I, I, I know you picked the movie. I, I’m sorry I craft all over it, but, uh, but, but thank you because. Sometimes these movies that we don’t like end up being some of our favorite episodes. So it was fun to rant about.

Andres: It was, it was a good rant. It was a good rant. I gotta say, um, I, I, I still, I still believe that the, the character itself is really scary and that’s precisely the reason that I chose the, the, the, this particular movie, the Nun is a, is a very scary character in my opinion. The non movie is a very nons, scary movie.

At least. I mean, you spec, you spec. I, I was really ready for being scary. I know that there will be the scare jumps and so on, but it, it was just like this story was so all over the place and, and so, so many illogical things here and there. That it wasn’t as scary anymore. And for that reason it really disappointed me.

But I still do like the character. I think I’m telling you like there is so much to do with this, this character, this non 

Craig: character. No, I’m with you. Yeah, I’m with you. I agree. 

Todd: I totally, I wouldn’t want a glowing poster of it in my room, I’ll tell you that right now. Absolutely not. Yeah. No way. Well, how often are we all on the same page with something very, very nice.

Unanimous right here on Two Guys and a Chainsaw. Yep. Thank you so much Andres for joining us today. It was a pleasure chatting with you. It’s a pleasure talking about this film. Thank you all for listening as well. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. You know, as always, as I always say, you can find us just by googling Two Guys and the Chainsaw podcast.

If you want to hear more about us talking about something we all unanimously loved, you can, uh, become a patron and listen to our two part series that we just recorded with Andres about The Last Of Us series and The Last Of Us video games. Until next time, I’m Todd…

Craig: I’m Craig…

Andres: …and I’m Andres…

Todd: … with Two Guys, Andres, and a Chainsaw.

This week, we follow our plucky little evil leprechaun to the very capital of debauchery and riches: Vegas, baby!

In the spirit of Craig’s recent trip to Sin City, we break down the third installment in the Leprechaun franchise, what was also apparently the hottest-selling video release of 1995! How many people will Warwick Davis’ character off in his quest to hunt down his pot o’ gold? Listen and find out!

Leprechaun 3 (1995)

Episode 338, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd, 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: Well, welcome back, Craig.

Craig: Hey, it’s good to be back.

Todd: How was your trip to Vegas ? 

Craig: My trip to Vegas was amazing. I love Vegas. 

Todd: I wanna ask you what happened there, but… 

Craig: yeah. I mean, fairly innocent. Before COVID, Alan and I would go to Vegas every few years and uh, obviously then covid hit and we haven’t traveled at all since then. So this was our first trip back and what, when we were getting ready to go, we were talking about how, you know, every time we go on a vacation, we go to Vegas. We, we really should plan to do something different next time, . And that’s still the plan.

That’s still the plan. But when we got there, we’re like We love Vegas, , , 

Todd: what do you, why? Tell me what it is about. That just blows you away. 

Craig: It’s just, oh, man. All right. I’ll start with the good stuff. Uh, the food is amazing, like yeah, anywhere you go, whatever kind of food you want, it’s amazing. Every single meal we had was just amazing and we had plenty.

Then the other big draw for us, Is the shows, uh, we don’t gamble. The very first time we went, Alan sat at the, uh, slot machines, you know, for a couple hours every night. It, I, I was never into it. But we go to these shows and it’s just the most amazing production value you can imagine. Um, I’ve never been to Broadway, but I have been to the West End in London, so I’ve seen big shows with big production value and just nothing compares to the technology and, uh, the staging and, and all the things that they can do there.

And it’s ungodly expensive to go see the big shows, but we had saved up and budgeted and so we were able to go see. Three Cirque de sole shows and they were each of them amazing in its own right. Um, and then like I, I don’t want people to think I’m like, I don’t know, some big lush or something, but just the debauchery of Vegas.

Like you can just go to Vegas and be drunk all day and so is everybody else. 

Todd: It doesn’t even matter. 

It 

Craig: doesn’t matter. And plus you don’t know anybody there. And the people who work there are used to people being drunk all the time. Right. The devil’s lettuce is legal there, like it’s just. 

Todd: I don’t know what you’re talking about, Craig.

I don’t 

Craig: either. , but that’s what they told me. . Right. But, uh, gosh, yeah. I mean it’s just, it’s just tons and tons of fun. Plus, uh, I also have family there that I don’t get to see very often and they, you know, showed like the most amazing hospitality and we got to spend some time with them and their kids and, ugh, it was just a, a great time.

We didn’t wanna come. Anybody who’s thinking about going to Vegas, first of all, I say you definitely should. If you’re an adult and you haven’t been to Vegas, go, especially if you, uh, enjoy theater, like it’s like nothing you’ve ever seen. Mm. But I had forgotten the last time we went, I was 38, which doesn’t sound young, but.

It. My body felt younger. at 38. Uh, this time around was a little rough cuz Vegas is a walking city. Like Yeah. Anywhere that you want to go, even if you plan on taking transportation, you are gonna have to walk to get to that transportation and you are gonna be walking a lot and a 

Todd: lot farther than it looks.

Right. , oh my 

Craig: God. Cuz it’s the desert. So everything’s. So like, you’re like, oh, I can see the store. It’s just down there and then two hours later you’re 

Todd: still walking. Yes. , it’s so deceptive. , , 

Craig: it’s very deceptive, but they also have great public transit. They’ve got a bus that runs up and down the strip and down to Fremont, which is like old school, Las Vegas.

And, uh, there’s also a tram. We didn’t use the tram this time around and uh, I probably spent $300 at least on Uber. But again, Totally worth it. Had a blast. It was 

Todd: tough to come back. This brought to you by the Vegas tourism department, . 

Craig: Have you been, we haven’t talked about this. Have you ever. 

Todd: Yeah, I’ve been a couple times, uh, well back in 2006 or so, and then again a couple years later for a very different kind of trip.

The first time I went, I just, I did exactly as you guys did. I just booked a bunch of shows. But what I love is the magic. I’ve been in a magic since I was a kid. I’ve performed a lot of magic. It’s. It’s really what got me into performing actually. And I’m still just a real geek when it comes to that. And Vegas is also pretty much unparalleled around the world for magic shows.

Right. And when I went there were, uh, David Copperfield. I’m not sure if he’s still there, but he had a regular show going on. I think he’s 

Craig: still there. I’m not sure. Penn and Teller Mack, king Penn and Teller is still there. 

Todd: Lance Burton is not there anymore. He used to have probably the best show in town for sort of classic magic over at Caesar’s Palace.

But yeah, there’s still a lot of magicians there and a lot of good magic shows. But, you know, I, I was, I was a little, I won’t say disappointed. I love Vegas too, and I loved all the shows I saw and I had enjoyed it for all the reasons you said. But I think it’s changed a lot since the classic Vegas, you know, 

Craig: a lot.

Dude, it’s changed a lot since I first went there like 10 years ago. It’s crazy. It’s, it’s constantly build like new, uh, theaters, new casinos. Uh, it’s constantly expanding outward. Um, a lot of the places that were bad parts of town when we were there last time are becoming like art districts and stuff. Oh wow.

Um, yeah. And there’s really, really cool stuff to see. That’s the other thing that I love about Vegas. We spent a lot of money on shows and if that’s what you want to. We don’t usually do that many shows, uh, but we figured this was kind of gonna be the last time we were gonna be there for a long time, so we wanted to take full advantage.

You can just walk around. Yeah. And there is plenty to see. You don’t have to spend a lot of money take Yeah. Like just going through all of the different hotels and casinos, there is so much to see, so many great, like photo opportunities. Um, it’s amazing. I mean, every, uh, it, it’s unlike anything else I’ve ever seen.

The, the thing that I would compare it most to is it’s like Disney. for grownups. Yeah. It’s like Pleasure island from Pinocchio. . Yeah, exactly. . 

Todd: Those are, why is it that, those are also the two things I think of when you’re, when we’re describing this and, and you know, like when I look at these old movies and stuff of Vegas, Vegas was.

Casinos and um, music shows basically crooners and things like that. Elvis was there at one point. You can still see and get those, but it seems like lately they’ve just blown up as far as shows go. Cirque Dele, they’re what, like 15 of them there, something like that. They’re a bunch big, like you said, extravagant stage productions and things that just go far and far beyond the more intimate like casino lounge type shows that it used to be more or less known for.

I think probably, I guess. The mafia left right, and things got extremely corporate. They realized, you know, we can actually provide a wider range of entertainment here. And almost seems like the gambling in the casinos, I won’t say took a backseat because there’s still a huge part of what’s going on there.

But, uh, in reference to kind of how everything got kicked off. They’re really kind of more in the background. You know? There is a lot of stuff to do if you don’t want to gamble at all. Oh yeah. Tons of stuff. You know, when my parents went there, you know, when they were of, you know, when I wasn’t around Right.

It was cheaper, you know, I think like, yeah, the whole draw was, you know, the, they wanted you to come there to gamble, so they made hotel rooms cheap. They made shows cheap. They made food almost unbelievably cheap and all. . Uh, and now it’s not that at all. 

Craig: No, that is not, sadly, that’s not the case anymore.

You know, they used to be known for like the all you can eat steak and lobster, 9 99 or, yeah. . , uh, there, if you go down to Fremont Street, which is the older part of Vegas, which is also the place with the cool, like l e d. Thing over the street, like the street long l e D thing over the top. It’s really cool.

Cool. Yeah. Big basically 

Todd: screen. 

Craig: Yeah. Over here. Yeah, it’s awesome. You go down there, you can find some of those old school specials at very specific times of day. So like from like seven to 9:00 PM you can get that kind of thing. But it’s really specific. Yeah, it has changed a lot. I don’t know. I mean, even since the last time I was there, the first time I was.

Seemed a little bit seedy, like lots of guys standing on the street, like slapping pamphlets at you, trying to get cards for hookers and stuff. Hookers. Yeah. , that’s, that’s all gone. Really? Yeah. The, the strip Las Vegas is very clean. Um, there’s still. A homeless population, um, which is sad of course, but much less visible than it used to be.

I’m sure that’s some sort of effort by the city. Right. And the other thing, another big thing that blew me away is, Next to nobody smoked cigarettes anymore. Oh. I don’t know if I’ve talked about this on the show, but I, I, Alan and I quit smoking last summer. You did? Yeah. We were worried about, uh, going to Vegas because the last time we were there, the casinos were so.

Smokey, like it was just a thick haze of smoke. Some of the casinos have gone smoke free and even the ones that are not smoke free, you’ll see a smoker every once in a while, but it’s kind of few and far between, which is great. I’m glad that we as a nation are finally figuring out that smoking is terrible.

It only took me like 20 some years, but , 

Todd: did you replace that with vaping? 

Craig: I did. Shh. Okay. Don’t tell. 

Todd: I’m. To kill . Didn’t mean to raid on that parade. I’m sorry. 

Craig: No, I don’t feel bad about it at all. I know that we don’t know all of the effects of, uh, vaping, but we know all the effects of smoking in there.

Worse as far as we know. True. So I feel like it’s better. 

Todd: Well, and it does make things more pleasant. I, I have a feeling there were a lot of people puffing vapes around you, but, uh, for some reason it just, it just isn’t the same as smoke. You know, when you’re in a, a 

Craig: room like that, it’s kind of you. Weed has a very distinctive smell.

And , though it’s, it’s legal, uh, recreational marijuana is legal in Nevada, or at least in Vegas. Um, but it’s only legal in private residences. Like you. You can’t smoke it in public. You, you can’t, you’re not even supposed to smoke in a hotel, but, We smelled weed everywhere we went.

we smelled it everywhere we went. So people are not worried about it and it doesn’t seem like the authorities are worried about it 

Todd: either. It sounds like you had a good time, a good enough time to inspire you, uh, to want to extend that. Into our podcast this week. 

Craig: Yeah, and that’s why we’re doing it this week was because I had so much fun in Vegas.

I wanted to do a Vegas horror movie. This might not have been the one that I chose, but watching it was actually really fun because they have a lot of B-roll of Vegas. Uh, 

Todd: that’s about all they have of Vegas. Really , 

Craig: right? Cause cuz they only could film in Vegas for one day of their, what, like 14, 19 day shoot or whatever.

Oh, 

Todd: super short. Yeah. Like 14 days. 

Craig: Right. So all of the B-roll that they got from Vegas was from one day. And it’s like Warwick Davis, like, Running. Oh, we’re doing leprechaun by 

Todd: the way. Yes, . This is what our patrons chose. We put a couple options to them of Vegas, uh, setting, uh, horror movies, and this is the one they picked.

So this is the one, by God, we went with . Right? 

Craig: So the, the, the B-roll footage is just like Warwick Davis, like running around on the street. I think there’s one scene where like the main couple like crosses the street, and I read that they almost certainly filmed all of that. Permits. Oh, they certainly 

Todd: did.

Craig: Yeah. just kamikazi the whole thing, which is great. 

Todd: Actually, the director, Brian Trencher Smith said they first asked permission from some of these big casinos, most of which not, not like the New York and, uh, mgm, but like the smaller ones, um, but more, more iconic ones. Really, if you think about it historically on Fremont Street, But, uh, the, none of them would let him film there.

He said they tried to film with the Golden Nugget and they asked for permission and the Golden Nugget was very uppity about it. And it was, they were like, oh, you’re gonna be making fun of gambling. Like, okay, like what? That’s a hard target. They said, you’re not gonna film inside or outside casino. So in a big middle finger to the golden nugget.

Yeah. You went outside, set up his camera on the ground. . He said he used a 14 millimeter lens, which makes everything kind of in the foreground much bigger. And he got the leprechaun, Warwick Davis walking in front of it, pausing, turning around and going, hehe, go on a nugget. , I’d like me one of those. called them out 

Craig: big time.

That’s hilarious. Yeah. One of the very, one of the very first establishing shots of Vegas is the, uh, big Finks, uh, which is in front of the Luxer Hotel, which is where we stayed, so, oh, right. It was nostalgic. Uh, I’ve got pictures. We took, uh, a selfie in front of that BigFix, but Vegas is very sunny and so like, I’m trying to take a selfie.

All I’m looking at is the black screen of my phone. I can’t see you right. . So all you can see like the lower three quarters of the Spanx and the top halves of our head

But I’ll, I’ll throw it up. I’ll throw it up on the website or the Paton page or 

Todd: something. Nice, nice, nice. Well, I am sure I had seen this movie, cuz this was a huge rental hit. This was in your face on, at least in my face, on the video store shelves. As soon as I looked at the cover, I instantly recognized it.

It is the first of the leprechaun movies to go straight to video. In fact, I was digging a little bit more into this. We did, we did talk a lot about the genesis of the leprechaun series and whatnot in our episode on the original lre. . But, uh, the producer of this series of films, he started out as a guy who owned some video stores.

He owned a chain of video stores in 80. And, uh, kicked off this company TriMark, as originally a distribution for movies on video, and then decided, you know, we should really get into production and producing movies for video. And then he realized, well, I mean, if we really want higher credibility and some notoriety, we should be looking at at least trying to find some movies that would release.

We Theatrically and it was Warlock starring Julian Sands, which I think we need to do on this. I 

Craig: know, I can’t believe we haven’t done it already. 

Todd: It’s. That one was one of those, uh, kind of in, uh, intended for video, but ended up releasing in theaters. They didn’t produce the movie, but they ended up distributing the movie to, uh, theaters and it was kind of their first big theatrical hit that went to video and made a ton of money on video.

And so then he said, let’s do something that we can just intend to release the theaters first. And that was the first leprechaun movie. And that movie did so well at the box office that they did a sequel and released it theatrically too, and it didn’t do quite so well. So on for the third one, they decided to go straight to video and it, it shows

It does, 

Craig: but. Not in a bad way. I mean, I would say it’s pretty comparable in quality to the first one. Yeah, I 

Todd: think so 

Craig: too. I think that like, and it’s bigger in scope, you know, like it’s in a big city. It’s not just all in one little tiny farmhouse location. Um, well 

Todd: it’s, it’s doing a lot. With a very, very small budget and I really commended for that.

Like, you know, this is the kind of movie that, you know, sometimes I would, I would probably end up making, you know, here’s a few thousand dollars, see what you can do with it. And trying to get really, really creative. Running around, stealing shots and kind of making sets on the cheaper, just shooting on location a lot.

And, uh, they got this director, Brian Trenchard Smith, who was always well known. He’s a British Australian guy and, uh, very proud of the fact that he can just make these really, really cheap movies, but make them well, you know, make them clear and good. And he did a, an Australian movie in 83 called BMX Bandits.

Have you ever seen that? No, but I’ve heard of it. That’s the one that gave Nicole Kidman, uh, her start. And it’s just, he just does very entertaining movies. And he had come off of doing night of the. Two. Yeah. Which was also a straight to video thing and they tapped him for this. He ended up doing this movie and leprechaun four in space.

Right. And I, I don’t know if you had a chance to watch it, but I sent you a YouTube link and I’m gonna post it 

Craig: online. I didn’t, 

Todd: I didn’t have a chance to watch it. My goodness. This is an interview with a director that was posted I think right now, 18 hours ago. You’re kidding, not kidding you. Uh, just a couple guys, uh, from some horror channel or whatever who got ahold of the director because it was around St.

Patrick’s Day and, uh, decided to interview him about it. So he talks a bit about this movie and, uh, the leprechaun in space as well. And it’s worth a watch. Uh, it’s a little slow because he kind of goes off on a few tangents here and there. speaking kind of slowly, but, uh, yeah, I, I learned a few tidbits about this movie that we’ll be sharing as we, uh, as we go along, but Cool.

Yeah, he’s very proud of this movie. He said it was a blast making it, it seems like everybody had a blast making it. And I think we talked about this when we were doing the first leprechaun, is that, uh, Warwick Davis really embraced and shaped this role. He’s great. Whereas, you know, other people, have denied their involvement to these movies or.

Kind of tried to push it to the background. This got him work, you know, where he was in a slump coming off of Willow and Star Wars and stuff. Mm-hmm. . And then there just weren’t a lot of advantages for little people. Right. He crafted this role and made it more comedic than it was originally supposed to be.

Right. And so the series just embraced that comedy, uh, didn’t give a crap about continuity. , no. Went with it from movie to movie, and literally the producer and direct and directors of these films are almost gleeful in saying, we were just seeing how far could we push this series? And that’s why after this you get leprechaun in space, which which was a joke that started from a movie poster at like a company party.

Uhhuh, , and then leprechaun back to the Hood. And in the hood. They didn’t care. It’s just a gleefully fun movie and it seems to connect with audiences on that, on that level because this one was apparently the highest selling video cassette, I think for the rental market of that year, 1995. I know. Which is crazy.

It 

Craig: is crazy. I don’t know. At the same time I. Printed it. . Yeah, . This, this may be one of the few, uh, franchises that I’m not sure if I’ve seen all of them. I’m not positive if I’ve seen both of the In the Hoods , um, and I, and I know that I haven’t seen any of them. That Warwick Davis wasn’t a part of. Cause there’s at least one or two Yeah.

Um, that he, uh, was not a part of. Which is unfortunate because he is the movie he 

Todd: is. It would be like Freddy without Robert Eng England. Really? 

Craig: Yeah. Which happened and was no good. . Yeah. Real quick side note, we’ll probably be doing Warlock really soon because. Do you know that Julian Sands is missing and presumed dead?

Oh, 

Todd: yeah, I heard about that from hiking, right? Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Unless there’s some, some big, uh, discovery. We will probably be doing warlock really soon, but. Leaving that sad note behind this movie really leans into the comedy. Uh, I, I think that the leprechaun series was always the, the, it was intended to be a trilogy and there was supposed to be leprechaun and then there was supposed to be bride of leprechaun and then trial of leprechaun.

This was supposed to be trial of Lepcha, but bride of leprechaun never really happened, or at least not entirely came to its fruition. If I remember part two, he is trying to steal a. to like make his bride or something, but Right. They don’t make as big a deal out of it. Um, and this one just went in a completely different way.

In fact, they considered not even doing this one and then they went ahead and did it, but did it straight to video. And then the reason that they kept making him was because it did so well. Mm-hmm. and it really did, and, and I don’t know, it is, you have to go into this movie in the right frame of mind.

Yeah. Because. Stupid. It’s stupid, and it’s cheap. It is cheesy and corny and dumb. The acting is bad except for Warwick Davis. I mean, he’s, he’s corny and over the top. But that’s, that’s what you’re here for. Uh, yeah. I mean, if you’ve made it all the way to part three, that’s really what you’re here for. But I don’t know.

It is. I, I do think, you know, I watched this in the middle of the day on. Phone, , . 

Todd: Wow, you really gave 

Craig: it its proper dude, didn’t you? I don’t think that I set myself up for it, but even in that environment, I could see why people find it. Charming. It does have a charm to it. One of the things that irked me is that the leprechaun is relegated to this stupid ass pawn shop for the first half 

Todd: an hour.

I know. And it could be a pawn shop anywhere. And it is, you know, it’s a, actually all of the movie, except for those that B-roll outside in Vegas was shot in the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. Right. And. It’s funny because I didn’t read any of the trivia or anything about this movie before I watch it, but I usually sit through the whole credits and I find little nuggets of information and I saw a big thank you to Ambassador Hotel, and I’m like, okay, that’s a hotel where they shot it.

I’m really curious about if it’s still there, how much they changed it, because I really had my suspicions that this wasn’t actually a casino that they shot it in because it. , you know, the way the set was decorated. And so I looked it up and, and I couldn’t really find an ambassador hotel in Vegas, but there were some pictures coming up in the image search and I saw one of a lobby and I was like, oh, that’s it.

Cuz I could see the ceiling and the fountain. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm . And it’s the Ambassador Hotel in la And I went down a rabbit hole about the Ambassador Hotel in. because it was demolished in like, uh, 2010 or 2009, something like that. It was closed before this movie shot. 1989 is when it closed, but this was the big hotel in Hollywood where most of the stars went.

They had these extravagant ballrooms. They had insane people and parties. They had this area called the Coconut Lounge or whatever. There’s this huge out open air outdoor party place, you know, done up with a tropical theme and you can find so many photos of stars from like the twenties and. Thirties, all the way up through the fifties and sixties playing around there.

I mean, just this incredibly cool hotel that I could think about. And I go, God, I wish I could go back in time, uh, and check this place out because in this movie, uh, it, it looks like shit. . Yeah. Yeah. And the the reason it does is they’re really just filming some interiors in one little exterior at the entrance because it was closed and it was slated to be demolished.

And so it was one of three movies that we’re actually shooting in this hotel at this time. Oh, I didn’t know. Yeah, one of ’em was some Tia Carrera movie that was kind of taking place in prohibition era. And another one, um, some other famous, uh, star, again, another sort of gambling movie. And I think they all took little pieces of, uh, of the hotel and dressed them up.

And so these guys were lucky. They got the lobby and they dressed up the lobby, obviously, to be this casino. And then that big coconut room or whatever that that was, uh, supposedly was outdoor At some point it became a theater and it got closed in and everything. And that’s where they filmed the magic show bits.

And then apparently they filmed the morgue scenes in the kitchen there. And another bit of sad and interesting trivia, right, is this hotel is where, uh, Bobby Kennedy was. Right in 1968 and that probably the beginning of the end of, of the golden days of that hotel. And that was a tragedy. But one of the things that this guy talks about in this interview, the director, was, he says Bobby Kennedy, once he was shot was he was taken into that kitchen and laid on the floor like, and he said we were shooting in there and there is an X on the tiles where his head lay.

Oh wow. So he was like, you know, I’m in there and I’m also. . He’s like, I remember when Bobby Kennedy was shot. You know, it was a kind of an earth shattering event, and it could have changed the course of US politics, you know, I mean, we all were upset about it. And he says, uh, I’m shooting this leprechaun horror movie in this spot.

Am I, am I desecrating it? You know, like, I know, you know, it’s kind of a weird thing, but, uh, Anyway, they took full advantage of this hotel to shoot, and that’s where most of the action takes place, sadly, is in this hotel in la. But you know, they do the best of what they can and they, it gives, I thought, it looks fine.

It looks like a CD casino off the strip, you know, but Right. Yeah, but those 

Craig: exist , you know. Exactly. You can still go to those smaller casinos. Yeah, you’re gonna have to go off the strip, which you probably should, you know, the, the strip is so expensive and, 

Todd: oh, I like the off strip casinos. Well, and you 

Craig: will see these smaller.

Like you said, like lounge shows and smaller magic acts, they’re still there. You just have to look a little bit harder and they are seedier. Um, it’s funny, you know, um, the strip is, is just tourists from every walk of life. Um, and, and of every race, color, and creed. Um, you just see everybody down there. And then we went down to, uh, Fremont.

and . It was like we were among our people. It was like . It was like they had transferred the Midwest to Nevada. . . Oh wow. It was hilarious. It was a completely different 

Todd: crowd. Are you saying it was like the Walmart of Vegas or something? ? 

Craig: Uh, kind of, I guess, you know, I mean like, I’m from the Midwest, so I don’t want to criticize people, but it was a Me too.

It was a very. Feel a very different feel. Right. And I’m sure that’s cuz it’s cheaper. You know, it’s cheaper to stay down there. It’s cheaper to gamble and eat down there. And, and it is cool. It it, I like it if you Yeah, you go down there, it’s really cool. They embrace the old school, Vegas. So you’ll see the women walking around in the old school like showgirl outfits with the huge feathered headdresses and stuff.

And of course they’re flirting with you because they want you to take a 10. Picture with them and stuff. Cool, cool. Nonetheless, and it’s a little seedier down there, like the gift shops are seedier and they’ve got like raunchy gifts and stuff. You can get th the, this, uh, casino, the, what was it, the Lucky Shamrock, is that what it’s called?

The Lucky Shamrock Looks much like that. But I totally buy that it exists and I buy that it looks like. Yeah, on the inside there may have been a, in real life, maybe a little bit more neon, but, uh, yeah, I, I totally buy it. The movie is funny though because there’s, there’s nothing to it there. I mean, there’s no plot.

There’s no plot to this movie. It starts out with this guy who we have no idea. I don’t, like you said, I don’t think they were ever concerned with continuity, and I don’t think that there are any rules. When it comes to the leprechaun from, from way to movie, he can do completely different things. There is completely 

different 

Todd: lore, right?

His weaknesses are different and totally, totally. 

Craig: In this one, some guy with one eye and one arm and one leg 

Todd: comes into. I thought that was hilarious. , like most, that’s the most understated joke in the whole movie. It’s so funny though. But where is 

Craig: that movie? Like, I, I need to, I need to hear this guy’s story.

Right? And, and he’s got this big, like, I don’t know, I guess life’s. Size statue of the lechat and it’s wearing this medallion. And he gives, he puts it up on the counter and the ridiculously stereotypical Indian pawn shop owner is like, whoa, who do you love for me here, ? And he’s like, he’s like, right. He’s like, uh, it’s a, it’s a statue.

It’s a good luck charm, and it’s wearing this medallion. And the guy goes, he’s like, don’t touch the medallion, whatever you do. And the Indian guy is like, okay, well I will give you a tin. Oh no, $20. And he gives him $20 and the guy leaves until he immediately grabs the medallion and takes it off. And he’s like, this is a worthless piece of crap.

But of course, that brings the leprechaun to. And then they parlay for a half an 

Todd: hour. They parlay forever. That that was, I was also sad. I’m like, please tell me the leprechaun’s gonna leave this fricking pawn shop and it’s enormous cavernous warehouse. Like backroom. Yeah. This is where the movie starts to immediately feel cheap.

But you know, I, it’s like, Hey, we’re in Vegas. Let’s do some Vegas stuff. But this actor, I do wanna call out Marcelo Tuber, who plays this Indian pawn shop owner. This guy is busy. Really? Yes, he is. He has. Extensive resume. Highly working, and a lot of what he’s been doing, probably the majority of it is voice work.

Yeah. I can see that. This guy has been in video games and movies and cartoons, uh, all the way back to, you know, the mid nineties and he’s still going. It’s really kind of impressive. Tv, TV shows and, you know, just bit parts here and there, but my goodness, he’s working not what I expected. 

Craig: And you see, it’s, it’s just one of those things like, See this in movies today, the, the zeitgeist of popular culture has changed so much, and I, and I don’t wanna get into a big debate about political correctness or stuff, but you just don’t see this kind of stereotypical portrayal anymore, which on the one hand I think is good, but on the other hand,

I watch old movies that I enjoy so much and think this would never be made. There’s no way that this would ever be made. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm . Um, and on the one hand it makes me kind of sad because these jokes, these cheap jokes, like the stereotypical Indian guy, they’re only, they’re cheap jokes and they’re only kind of funny.

But yeah, I feel, I feel like at the time, and maybe I’m wrong cuz I’m a white dude, so maybe I just don’t get it. But I feel like everybody was in on the joke. Nobody really thought that this is. Indian people were like, yeah, this was a stereotype and, and it was an exaggerated stereotype for humor. But you can’t do that anymore.

Todd: we, we can only laugh at them in these older movies, . 

Craig: I know, you know, and like I, I say I’m a white dude, but I’m also a gay dude. And you know, back in, uh, the eighties and stuff, there were always these. Digs at gay dudes. Yeah. Uh, and, and I can look back at that and, and think it’s funny and, and not be offended.

Cuz I know it’s a joke. Like . It’s, it’s, I don’t know. I mean, I, I, I’m sure that there are examples of times where it’s mean spirited, but for the most part it’s a gag. Like, whatever, that’s enough. , , you get what I’m saying? I, I know. I feel like I, I, I’ll get in trouble if I keep talking. So moving. 

Todd: Right . Well, he, uh, while he’s parlaying in there, we get to meet this other couple.

It’s this guy who’s super young and his name is, uh, Scott and Tammy, who’s, uh, vw. It’s 

Craig: Pat and Tammy. . VW 

Todd: Bug is, uh, I know right? stuck by the side of the road. So she’s hitchhiking a ride, 

Craig: driving through, and she’s like, she’s like, can you look at my engine? And he’s like, yeah. And he opens up the truck and he’s like, have you ever blown a rod before?

I beg your pardon? The engine. See you got your pistons and your. She’s like, she’s like, what? He’s like, you know, like rods and pistons, . Like, this is the writing folk. This is, it’s hilarious. Um, when the lecha first attacks the Indian guy, oh God, he says, he says, gonna say, I like Indian food. So spicy , 

Todd: spicy veer off.

Oh my God. 

Craig: Ah, uh, the writing. Terrible and hilarious. Well, we’ve also, 

Todd: we’ve also, by this point, well established the quality of acting because Scott and Tammy are awful, laughably bad, and it’s, it’s so bad. It’s actually charming like it is Scott, it just seems like this is this guy’s first acting job ever.

This this guy is, uh, John Gatten and, uh, he had something to say about his acting career. He says, I’d love to say I didn’t do well because I didn’t get my. But the reality is that I couldn’t really act, I was in a few horror movies, but hey, leprechaun three is scary. Mostly because of my acting. I really had no idea what I was doing.

And it shows Aley show. It’s what, but it’s kind of like a goofy charm of this guy who’s a PA who we learn is a, actually supposed to be a teenager. Right. And so, you know, uh, the young goofy kind of naive guy in Vegas. Vegas. Exactly. It still works on a silly level. And by the way, speaking of this actor, John Cat, He was nominated for an Academy Award.

Get Out For what? For writing the movie Flight, which starred Denzel Washington. Oh yeah. That was a great movie. Yeah, he didn’t win, but he was nominated, so he’s got a nice little career as a writer. He’s won a number of other awards and written a nice handful of movies. Good for him. Yeah, like a need for speed.

He did the story for Kong Skull Island Broke. Coach Carter. Nice. 

Craig: That’s impressive. Tammy, on the other hand, Lee Armstrong never worked again. , at least not as an actress. I didn’t look her up, so I don’t know if she still works in the industry or not, but she never acted again. , 

Todd: I don’t wanna to be mean, but you know, maybe she 

Craig: saw this movie and was like, no, this is not for me.

I don’t know. Whatever. Sweet too. She’s very pretty. She’s fine. Um, and she’s fine. She plays, uh, a magician’s assistant, 

Todd: which I was like, yes, we’re gonna see some magic in this movie. They got the magic part of Vegas in there. 

Craig: That guy fasio the magician. , like you could have played that role. , like, let’s just call him Todd from, 

Todd: for the rest of the time,

I’d like to think I would’ve at least done the magic better. , he’s cheesy and stuff, but again, this actor. Is working very hard and he’s, he’s also in video games and cartoons. A lot of Japanese anime, I mean, we’re talking. The Final Fantasy series, a number of the final Fantasy series, including that Final Fantasy movie they did remember way back when.

Yeah. Vaguely. This guy’s still 

Craig: going. Yeah. Well, but the thing is like, I’m making fun of these folks, but they, it’s, they know what movie they’re in. Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s a goofy movie. 

Todd: Yeah. They’re hamming it up on purpose. Like 

Craig: his, uh, partner in crime is Loretta played by Caroline Williams, and I like Caroline Williams.

I don’t. You know, she is, uh, you know, gonna join the Royal Shakespeare Company anytime soon. I like her. I loved her in chainsaw too. She was stretched in chainsaw too, and we’ve seen her in several other things too. I like her fine. And she’s funny in this movie and she’s got a, these are all gag scene.

Todd: It’s like a farce really. 

Craig: It is a farcet, but that’s the thing. You have to go in in the right mindset. It’s not serious. The director straight up said it is a comedy first and a horror movie second, and it definitely a hundred percent is, and there’s nothing wrong with that. 

Todd: It’s fine. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn.

Call it scary. 

Craig: No, no. I mean there are some gross parts, um, but nothing scary. Far more funny. I love when they get to the casino, Tammy has to reluctantly sneak Scott into the casino cuz he’s never seen one before and she makes him promise he won’t gamble. So he immediately goes and gambles, 

Todd: all of his tuition money.

Yeah, 

Craig: he’s got a check for 20. Thousand dollars from his parents, which I think he blows entirely, like on the first roll at the craps table or the first spin at the roulette wheel. Like he puts it all down, like, kid 

Todd: come on. And he’s like, just stares out. Oh my God, I, what have I done? What have I done? And the, the woman’s like, well, you know, I think your luck’s about to turn around you.

And he’s like, but I’ve got no more money. And she’s like, well, what about that watch you’re, Yeah, 

Craig: this girl go across the street to the 

Todd: pawn shop. She is ruthless. I, I thought, you know, I actually kind of thought maybe she was. Help him out a little bit just to keep him going. Oh, no way. 

Craig: She’s totally scamming the, the whole, the casino’s rig.

She’s got a button under the roulette wheel that stops it whenever she wants to. Mm-hmm. So she’s just trying, she’s just trying to milk him for everything. But she tells him to go sell his watch at the pawn shop. So he goes across the street there, finally finds the pawn shop guy dead. The whole plot is predicated on the fact that the leprechaun got his gold back from.

The pawn shop guy, but one coin fell out and that coin keeps passing along to different people. Yeah. And in this movie, I don’t remember if it’s the case in the other movies, but in this movie, every, each coin gives you a wish. And so the movie becomes much like wish master kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Um, except for.

In this case, the people always initially get what they want, but then when the leprechaun catches up to ’em, he turns it around on ’em. Yeah. Which is, which is fun. 

Todd: and we, we get all the leprechaun lore with this very charmingly mid nineties. Um, I don’t know if it was like some CD rom encyclopedia or something that this guy, it was like, 

Craig: Ferries and folklore it said on the front or something like that.

And I couldn’t tell it. It wasn’t even a CD ramen, it was like one of those big ass thick floppy discs or 

Todd: something. But it has voice, which is totally unbelievable. But the time, at the time we, we gave computers a lot more credit than, than they deserved. But then it has this horrible animation that kind of goes along with it.

It’s, it’s hard to really believe that this product would exist. But the funny thing is, is that the shopkeeper starts playing it as soon as he. Figures out that this leprechaun’s after him and somehow this keeps running on the computer and there are enough leprechaun facts for this computer to just continue to run and spit these facts out for the next hour, for the rest of the night.

Yeah. So we find, you know, that leprechauns, you know, need their gold and they’re very jealous of their gold and that they need to get their gold back. And then later on we. Find out that leprechauns don’t get along very well together. So if there’s another leprechaun, they’re gonna like hate each other or something.

And then later on we find out that if you destroy the leprechaun’s gold, you destroy the leprechaun. Right? 

Craig: Good job. Good job laying out the lore there, right. and that’s it. . Uh, but it’s so funny, just the leprechaun in Vegas is hilarious because once, so Scott, like, he, he gets the coin and then the leprechaun I think is trying to kill him or something.

Maybe not even yet. He just, he’s like, Aw man, I wish I was back at the casino on a winning streak. So he is, he’s back at the casino and he starts winning. Um, and he wins a whole bunch of money and the. Casino owner, I guess. Yeah. Midge is plotting against him, but starts giving him the, uh, like the high roller treatment, which is a real deal.

Yeah. Um, if you, if you spend a bunch of money in the casino, they will come and give you shit . 

Todd: That’s right. They want you 

Craig: to stay . They do want you to. Stay. Um, but then, so the leprechaun has to come find him. So he comes out, he comes out onto the strip, he does the whole golden nugget thing, and then he’s just walking around.

He is like, ah, Vegas my kind of town. . 

Todd: Who are you? 

Craig: I’m a Lepcha Vila, and you’re a greedy thief. For trying to steal me gold. I’ll be giving you some grief. Oh, ripping go whack in the head. A doesn’t time to tell you death. If you’re gonna linger, I’ll give you the finger. I told you a terrible life and now you’re going to die.

Yes. What was I thinking with all this killing, eye glass face. Shell a lucky side. The golden side will soon be my . It should have been willing to give me shilling, but I’ve done well by sending them to hell. I smell me shilling. Tell me where it is, or there’ll be another Killing belongs to me. This gold eye smell weather’s gun’s going to hell.

It’s hilarious. Everything that the leprechaun says, Warwick Davis says is hilarious, and he speaks almost exclusively in rhyming. Couplets, yes. Or in limericks. Thank God. Hilarious. This is my kind of place. Crooked and sleazy. Stealing gold from humans is awfully easy. Look how Vegas I’m Take it over . 

Todd: That one was my favorite.

It’s hilarious in a corny way, right? I mean, oh yeah. I, it’s, it’s his delivery that sells it. And I think, like we had said earlier, this is really what kind of sells the whole series is he is just a delightful little leprechaun. Yeah. Throughout the film, and I think throughout most of the other movies, at least the ones I’ve seen, and I’ve seen leprechaun in.

He’s just in control. He wanders around and he just does his thing and he’s magical and he can make anything happen, and he just sort of gleefully is doing that and so he does feel like an pretty much unstoppable foe. Yeah, I just think that’s all kind of part of the charm is you’re kind of on his side in a way.

You know, you, you just. You just wanna see him going around on his high heeled shoes 

Craig: and Oh yeah. And he meets an Elvis impersonator. And the Elvis impersonator is like, nice shoes can do. They come in blue suede and then, and then the Lepcha does an Elvis impersonation. Yes. Oh my god. Cartoon. It’s so good.

Come to life. I didn’t see, I didn’t see any Elvis impersonators. This. That we were down there, but the last time we were down there, we were on a bus coming back or either coming back or going to Fremont Street, and there was a little person Elvis impersonator, and it was like the highlight of our trip.

Like we were so excited. Well, you 

Todd: know, in thinking about it, I’m thinking back to our review of the original leprechaun. And I think for us, these gags in that movie got old and kind of stupid. Right? And I think the reason for that is, By now you’re embracing it. You know, by this third movie, you’re, this movie just kind of like you said it, it’s a comedy first and a horror movie.

Second, the original was more or less trying to be a horror movie first, and so all of the gags and things, they kind of got old and I don’t, it just didn’t have the same feel, probably because it was bigger budget. and better acted. You know, it had its corniness, but most of that corniness was centered around the Lepcha himself.

Right. The movie was trying to be a little more serious as a horror film, right? This one makes no such pretense, and so you kind of. Check your mind at the door and just roll with it a little easier than you do with the original movie, I think. Right. And ultimately, 

Craig: I don’t think that this is a better movie, but it’s more fun.

Yeah, that’s right. And I think that, uh, that’s probably why I, I think that from the whole series, this is one of the most popular ones. I think that this is kind of people’s favorite. 

Todd: What’s Warwick Davis’s favorite too, for that reason? 

Craig: Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. it. Yeah, he said that he loved it. He loved leaning into the comedy.

He thought that’s exactly what they should do. Like you said, that was his idea. It was supposed to be a straight up horror movie in the first one. He wanted to lean into the comedy, so they let him, and they shaped it around that. Here the director was on board all the way, and he loved working this with this director.

He said, this director was great. 

Todd: To work with. Yeah. This director gets a lot of, he’s sort of known as like his renegade type dude, but uh, takes on these kinds of projects where he is just like gonna do some eccentric, quirky things, but also get things under budget and be easy to work with and have a nice environment and all that stuff.

He just sounds like a guy who loves making movies, you know? Yeah. And doesn’t care if their big budget, high quality Hollywood productions. He’s just gonna, but I, I, I have to say, since we’re also talking about that, like the movie is well made for what it is. I mean, it’s very straightforward. The shots, everything makes sense.

It flows, it moves. It’s clean. Yeah, very clean. The action is clear. You know, I was a little disappointed that most of the killings are, well, they’re they’re mostly pretty bloodless. Yeah. I’d say about half of it is he’s just beating people. Pipe, which is its own kind of comedy. He kind of wanders around and just starts whacking people on the legs and 

Craig: yeah.

Well, we’re almost like 50 minutes in, so I feel like we should just talk about the fun, like what’s his name? Scott has the coin, but then the magician breaks into his room and steals it, and then he goes downstairs and Loretta gets. The coin, but then Mitch, the owner, gets it away from him and he wishes that he could get with Tammy.

And so then all of a sudden, Tammy is this total bimbo who’s throwing herself at him and is apparently into really rough sex. Yeah. , there’s, there’s no sex in this movie and you don’t see Tammy’s boobs there. Later there you see some boobs. She’s. Hitting him and like pushing him around. And if at one point he is like, he’s like, okay, can we not have any more violence now,

But right before he’s about to hook up with her. Somebody else. Does the lepcha show up or does somebody else get the, 

Todd: well, the leprechaun’s in the TV 

Craig: taunting him. Oh my God. 

Todd: with all those fake commercials from tv, which are kind of like takeoffs and pairs. What is it? 

He’s 

Craig: a psychic at one point. He’s a, uh, He’s a personal injury lawyer at one point, which again, Vegas personal injury lawyer, uh, billboards all over the place.

And I don’t remember what else he is, but That’s hilarious. The leprechaun gets to dress up as different characters in this. And it’s really funny, there’s one point in the hospital where he wears scrubs, like he’s wearing these cute little pink nurses scrubs, right? And a little like surgical cap. So funny.

But the way that he. Like he, he sends a, a big booby topless girl out of the television. Mitch lays down on the bed and she climbs on top and like they’re gonna get it on, but then she turns into like a Android with just a skin face and skin boobs and there these huge boobs. And the rest of her is all like rods and wires.

And eventually, uh, it electrocutes him. That was a fun. That was a fun one, but my favorite, my Loreta favorite. Loretta, I think I haven’t even seen all the movies. I’m gonna say hand sound. This has got to be the best. The leprechaun death of all of them. I love 

Todd: it. It’s definitely, I mean, if you, especially if you go image searching like I do, to pull out images from the movie cuz I’m too lazy to take my own screenshots, her, her death scene in this movie is by far, I guess must be one of the most screenshotted of all in this, in this film.

And, uh, that, that’s what happens when Mitch is having sex with that girl, is that she sneaks in and gets that coin and she wishes to be beautiful. Now you can tell. That she’s a beautiful person done up to look kind of dumpy. Oh, sure. 

Craig: They’ve patted her a little bit, put her in ugly polyester clothes, given her a kind of big, ugly wig.

She doesn’t even look bad, you know, like, no, she doesn’t look 

Todd: bad. It’s no, she doesn’t look bad at all. It’s not a dramatic transformation for her to, she says she wants tits, like a 20 something year old and all that, 

Craig: but when she does transform, she looks like Caroline Williams. Yes. She looks like the Caroline Williams.

We know. Yes. She’s thin and beautiful. Um, she does have a beautiful body. Um, she takes off that terrible wig and has a really sharp, like s uh, short, short hair buzz kind of cut. She looks great, but then when the leprechaun catches up to her, it’s like, what do you want? Your boobs are big, your body’s small, but still you’re in for quite a fall.

What are you talking about? Oh, what didn’t you hear? Bigger is. But Jumbo is dear, I’ll give you boobs that come out to here. , he makes her boobs and her ass and her lips blow up to where she looks like a. Kardashian

and then she explodes. Oh, but seriously, if, if Todd doesn’t put up an image of this, Google it. Google image, search it cuz it’s hilarious, 

Todd: you know. The director was actually talking about this, this particular scene in his interview, and he spends a lot of time actually kind of talking about how movies have changed and how he’s a little unsettled by horror.

The direction horror has gone and gotten more extreme. And so he’s very insistent. You know about how when he approached this in the first place, you know, uh, he was really trying to lean more into the comedy and, and less of the horror. And he said, this scene in particular, he says, you know, It’s a little misogynistic.

Yeah. He said we, we knew it was, I knew it was a little misogynistic, and so I was trying to find ways to, to make it more comedic and less mean. And he says, you know, just in the same way that when Buster Keaton slips and falls on a banana peel and falls back on his head, that’s funny. But if Buster Keaton slips on a banana, peel falls back on his head.

See blood splatter. It’s not funny anymore. And uh, he said that’s why with this one, he told them the special effects guys. He didn’t want blood. You know, when she blows up she just, it’s like sawdust. Yeah, it’s like sawdust and styrofoam and stuff. It, it’s not bloody at all. And he’s like, you know, decisions like that were to take the edge off and keep it funny instead of something mean, you know about women and, and, and beauty.

You know, in some ways as like this scene does say a little something about, you know, those standards and he’s trying to parody that instead of Be mean. Yeah. Again, it’s a 

Craig: joke, right? Like it’s just a joke. Yeah, 

Todd: it’s a joke. But you know, like, He’s clear. He’s, it’s true though. I mean, depending on how you film it, it would be less funny.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. The, the thought that went into this movie is, is kind of surprising to, probably would be a lot surprising to a lot of people. . Well, 

Craig: and while we’re talking about looks, um, Warwick Davis looks great. Uh, his costume and his makeup are fantastic. I, I think it took him like three hours or.

Something to get into the makeup and over a half an hour to get out. But he looks great. I mean, he looks, you know, much the same as he does in the other movies, but it’s good. It’s, it’s a great character. Look. Mm-hmm. , um, at some point, I don’t even remember when it was, but at some point he fights with Scott and bites him.

And in this movie Leprechauns are also werewolf. Right. So if you get bit by a leprechaun, you start to turn into a leprechaun that kinda looks a little bit 

Todd: like a werewolf, this, which leads to some of Scott’s best acting in the whole film, to be quite honest. Oh, it’s fantastic 

Craig: because not only does he start to change physically, but he also starts to talk like a leprechaun.

Yes. And. An incredible insatiable craving for potatoes, . 

Todd: Oh my gosh. And he goes 

Craig: to a restaurant and he orders a huge platter of potatoes and the waitress lists, baked potato, brew potato, french fries, potato skin, potato salad, and uh, six potato pancakes. Anything else? That once was a lady of tut whose taste group perverted.

She cared not for steaks or for pastries and cakes, but lived upon penis. Oh, Grut. . Oh my God. God, what else? I don’t know. They’re running around a lot. They, you know, like they, he 

Todd: ends up at the emergency room. That’s the morph scene. And the leprechaun, you know, has Tammy, uh, there, I think strapped to the table.

Scott’s almost full leprechaun 

Craig: by now, and he can use magic too. So he uses magic to free himself and to fight off the emergency room. Plus 

Todd: she has the medallion and so Uhhuh , this medallion, apparently all you have to do is put it in your pocket and it’s safe for about Yeah. But if it’s near somebody, you know, if it’s outta your pocket, at near one of the him or the other leprechaun, then uh, it’s like a cross to a vampire.

Craig: They go back to the pawn shop. He can smell it. He’s like, there’s something here that I need or that I want really bad. , because he’s a lepcha, he’s turning into lepcha, so he wants gold too. And when he finds the in the safe, the Lepcha had hit it in the safe at the pawn shop. He’s like, ah, isn’t his lovely patcha gold for the take?

And and they, and they try. The girl, the leprechaun follows them there, and Tammy tries to use. A wish against him. And he is like, you can’t use the gold against leprechaun or something. I don’t know. And then , he, uh, I don’t remember what Scott does, but the Lepcha says, for putting this trick on, chop off your dick.

Like, yes, every one of ’em is gold. And that’s a lie. They’re not all gold, but they, they’re not still made me. They made me laugh every time. And yeah, they take him, they take him to the hospital, they give him an ence gram, which comes out with the reading all in Shamrocks that just says you . Which is 

Todd: hilarious.

right? . But the magician has the gold right now and so now, right, 

Craig: so So they tell hi. They tell the EP on that, do you want you gold? You gotta go find. Fio. And so he does, and they follow him there. And the whole climax, I guess, takes place at the Magic Show. 

Todd: Oh my God. I, I thought actually, the only time I laughed out loud in this movie was this magic show.

So the leprechaun shows up and Fabio’s about to do his most dangerous trick ever where he’s. Put a girl in a box, I’m gonna set it on fire, which he wasn’t gonna do previously, but his wish is to be the best magician in the whole world. Yeah. So his show’s still pretty lame for being the best magician in the world.

Yeah. But the lecha pops outta the box instead, uh, and puts Fabio in the whole cut the saw the person in half thing. And pulls out a chainsaw and is like taunting the audience. Do you want me to cut him in half? Do you want me to cut him in half? And they’re like, yeah, yeah. Do it. Do it. Do it. . I love this bit.

So he chainsaws threw the guy in this box, and suddenly. There’s blood coming out and stuff, and the audience is considerably unsettled by this . He jumps down and finishes the trick, Uhhuh by opening up the box and showing this guy and his guts are falling out on the inside there, and he is like prancing in front of it and showing it like a magician.

Oh my God. That was. I don’t know why, but that just tickled me so 

Craig: much. , it was really funny. And then there like all of the guests like stampeded out. Oh, and Scott and Ta. The thing that bothered me about the magic shirt was he saw it all the way through the guy and then when he pulled it out, it’s like his guts were still connected.

So like they strung out. Oh yeah. Still connected to one another, which I’m glad cuz it looks great. . Um, that was probably the, Part. And even that wasn’t that gory. No. But anyway, while he’s getting cut in half, FIO drops the coin, the crowd panics and runs and then. Scott and Tammy arrive and Scott faces off with the le and like they have the le.

That’s what how I have it in my notes. . The leprechaun, the leprechaun’s like, come over to the green side, I’ll make you rich. 

Todd: Oh, and the music gets the little bit of the Imperial March in it. It’s funny. 

Craig: little touches. Um, But instead, Scott takes the torch that Fasio had been using and he burns up the gold, which sets the lepcha on fire, and the lepcha Levitates into the air and it’s completely on fire.

And you can totally see the rig like you can totally, it’s not even a wire, it’s a. Steel cord holding this thing on a harness, and you can see it all looks so stupid. Um, but the, the, the gold burns, the leprechaun burns, and apparently if the leprechaun’s dead, then Scott can come back to normal. And so Scott and Tammy walk outside and they’re like, what now?

I don’t know, but we should get outta here. And she’s like, but wait, look what I have. And she has that one coin left and they’re like, ha ha. The end. ? 

Todd: No. She says we could have anything we want, and then she kind of looks at him and goes, you. I think I already have everything I wanted. , she chucks the gold aside.

Oh, 

Craig: gross. I, I must have stopped watching . . I was like, it’s over. Great . 

Todd: I’m glad you did because, uh, Scott then jumps in with a terrible, um, impression of, uh, you know, sweetheart Dish could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship. Boge Humphrey Bogart. 

Craig: Oh God, folks. It’s a terrible movie, but like aliens, it’s bad, but it’s one of those movie.

A friend of ours, Jordan, uh, who’s done the podcast with us a couple times, she texted me a few weeks ago and said, you have to see Cocaine Bear. It’s the best bad movie I’ve ever sat seen. She’s like, it’s so well made, and it’s terrible. You have to see it . This isn’t that well made, but it’s competently enough made that you’re not mad.

About right. It like, you don’t feel like you’ve wasted your money or your time. It is what it is. It’s funny. That’s what it’s trying to be. Uh, and if, if you give yourself over to that, and And realize that they’re not really going for the intense horror at all. Yeah, it’s a fun ride. I would watch it again, not tomorrow.

Yeah. But several years down the road, I’d watch it again. 

Todd: It’s funny. I’d have a playing in the background. Yeah, absolutely. It’s definitely more fun. Honestly, it’s more fun than the original, I think. So. The original drags and this one, it’s plotting. Yeah. Moves. And you know, it is, it, it wears its heart on its sleeve.

And so if you’re in the mood for that kind of thing, yeah, absolutely. Watch it. Got no problems. Didn’t agree more . Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this one, please share. Uh, please share it with a friend. You can find us online too. Guys in the Chainsaw podcast. Google us and you.

Get our website. As you know, we uh, asked our patrons this time around what episode we wanted to see, and we pulled them, and this is what they chose. If you would like to similarly shape the show, consider joining the Patron club patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week’s tribute episode goes out to Tom Sizemore, who sadly died recently of a brain aneurysm. We review his first leading man role in 1997’s The Relic, where he stars alongside Penelope Ann Miller. He’s a tough-as-nails police detective. She’s an evolutionary biologist. But what matters THE MOST is that the big museum gala fundraiser go on as scheduled, AT ALL COSTS. Even in the face of a giant, whacked out Stan Winston-created monstrosity lurking in sewers below.

The Relic (1997)

Episode 337, 2 Guys & A Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: We wrapped up our month of remakes and that was a lot of fun, wasn’t it? Yeah, I enjoyed it. I kind of wanted to jump in and do another month of remakes afterwards, , but instead what we did was we took a week off . Yeah.

And so we’re coming to you this week, uh, with a very current tribute episode, an actor who, uh, probably all of you have seen in, in big movies, Tom Sizemore. Died of a brain aneurysm. Tom Sizemore has been in and outta movies since the late eighties. Um, he studied theater, but he really got his big break, um, inboard on the 4th of July, which I believe is an stone film.

Uhhuh then did this movie, which we’re gonna do today, called The Relic, uh, and then the following year really hit it big with Saving Private Ryan. He was well, uh, regarded in that. He, he did a few movies before that. He did like Passenger 57, I think with Wesley Snipes and Point Break and, you know, some other big budget movies.

But, um, the Relic was his first big major screen roll as far as being like a leading man. He played the lieutenant detective in this alongside Penelope and Miller . Yeah, from Saving Private Ryan on really popped in and outta movies quite a bit. Always usually playing the cop or the Tough Guy or Uhhuh, , these kinds of roles.

And, you know, we might as well get it outta the way from the beginning. From what we can tell, Tom Sizemore was not always an outstanding citizen. . Um, he struggled with drug abuse since he was 15, both methamphetamine and, uh, heroin I believe. And it seems like that never really left him. And uh, he was constantly in and out of rehab.

Um, he had some domestic violence charges against him, including with Heidi Fleiss. , yeah. Who he had a relationship with for a little while. The famous, you’re Engaged Hollywood Madam. And the reason I proposed the Relic was because I’ve actually been wanting to do this one on this podcast for years, . And it’s just always in the back of my mind when I think about Monster movies because I saw this, uh, when I was in college, um, cuz this was what, 1997 film?

Mm-hmm. . This was my freshman year in college. I remembered being quite surprised by how gory it was for a mainstream movie. There is some real gore and violence in this movie for something that, you know, played in the cinemas. You know, and was supposed to be a, a big, a big blockbuster hit with these major stars in it.

So, um, I hadn’t seen it since and I just wanted to go back and revisit it and see like, was this movie, you know, as good as, as I, I, as, as impactful as I remembered it being. It was definitely remembered it being shocking. Definitely remembered it being very satisfying as a creature feature. And so, uh, I haven’t seen it since 1997 and, uh, here we are.

I watched it today. How about you, Craig? Had you seen this before? I’m 

Craig: sure I had like, uh, a hundred percent positive. I had seen it before. I didn’t remember. anything about it aside from the fact that Tom Sizemore was in it and, uh, Penelope Miller. I remember that. That’s it. So I went back to look it up and, uh, I saw that Stan Winston does the creature effects and I’m, I’m in like, that’s all you, that’s how you gotta tell me.

Yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m here for it. I didn’t really read much more about it before I started watching it, and then I watched it. I don’t know, man. I don’t know if, I just thought it was all right. . Yeah, 

Todd: I’m, I’m a hundred percent with you on that. This is almost like every other movie from the nineties . It kind of has that feel like these, all these big budget action movies were just like, Almost paint by numbers in some way, you know, in some way, shape or form.

They were all mimicking the rock or, or some Michael Bay movie. This movie being more of a horror creature movie, it just checks all the boxes. Right. Kind of in an annoying way. Researcher co, you know, is in the museum. It’s this sort of dorky setting when and, and there’s a big gala opening the ne the next night.

So when they find problems in the museum, they’ve gotta, there’s, there’s all this pressure between the cops and the people in the museum. We’ve gotta get our gala opening. Yeah. But we’re not sure. It’s not safe. Somebody just died there and, well, you guys investigate the museum while we have our big gala and we all know what’s gonna happen.

Well, you know, well this, this 

Craig: movie is just basically arachnophobia in a museum. Yeah, with just one great big spider . Beyond that, it’s the exact same movie, , 

Todd: right? You’re kinda right about that. Yeah. It 

Craig: really is. Exotic Monster gets transported in a crate to Uhhuh, , uh, a populated area. Chaos ensues the end.

They’re the same movie . 

Todd: It really is, except in this case, instead of a dude who’s freaked out by spiders, you have a guy who is extremely superstitious. Really superstitious 

Craig: was just the dumbest flop point. 

Todd: It’s so stupid and it we are repeatedly beat over the head bite in any way shape. Oh my God.

Craig: Perform the name, the name of the gala. Like Is superstition. Yeah, like . 

Todd: What are the chances? 

Craig: I was trying to be nice by saying it was just, all right, it’s bad. This is a 

Todd: bad movie. I mean, it’s not badly made. 

Craig: It’s not badly made. And like I really enjoy the setting of the Chicago Museum of Nashville. So 

Todd: that’s cool.

Yeah, it was filmed there too. Uhhuh. it seems like, like, but if you can see it, because the whole movie is so freaking dark. It is so dark that about a third of the way through, I thought, these people are raising money for the museum. They need to raise money for more lighting. Like these people work in offices that are lit by little lamps and nothing else in the middle of the day.

You know, they’re walking around in dark basements without ever flipping on the lights. Even the freaking gala is so dark that I’m like, you guys need to like turn some lights on before all of your patrons trip and fall down the stairs on their way in. It is insanely dark this movie, and I know they’re trying to, you know, they’re trying to create this look and this feel, but the monster doesn’t even come in.

Until like three quarters of the way through. Yeah. Lee, it’s, it’s almost two hour movie. Monster doesn’t come in until the next 20, until the last 25 minutes. See that? 

Craig: Isn’t that It’s also Alien . Yeah. 

Right. 

Todd: It is because the 

Craig: monster. Because the monster just lingers in the shadows for the first two thirds of the movie and then you finally get to see it a little bit, 

Todd: kind of grabs people left and right.

Kind of does a few little things, but you don’t see the whole thing and then finally you do. Now when you do it’s, even when you do , it’s hard to get a grasp on what this thing is because even in the big shots, you know where like the big reveal, right? Where you see the monster in the middle of the gala, in that giant open atrium space, I’m still like had to pause and look at it like, what am I seeing here?

None of it was quite clear to me and that I found Irksome. It actually. Pissed me off. . Well, 

Craig: it’s supposed to be like the, the plot point is like, it’s an amalgamation of things. Um, so, you know, I read about the design, like I think it’s face is supposed to be like a spider. It’s got kinda like those pinchers like spiders have Mm.

And then big fangs and things. Yeah. And its body is supposed to be a mix of like a lion, a horse and an alligator. . 

Todd: Right. it’s got her and 

Craig: scales. Yeah. So it kind of has like, it kind of has a lion’s body with an alligator tail, ts fur all over and it gallops like a horse. Yeah. I don’t know. It’s interesting.

It’s unique. I’ve. And, and the concept is unique and, um, they did a lot of the creature effects practically, but you’re right, it’s so dark. And I feel like they had to do so much in like extreme closeup that it was hard to even tell what you were looking at. Oh, yeah. And, and then I, I like, I think some of the closeups on the monster’s face were probably practical and that’s, that’s great.

Todd: Some of those were great. Mm-hmm. , there were some lingering close up on the face scenes with the typical dripping fangs and things like that that were Oh, there was the 

Craig: Todd Aliens. Yes. This movie steals from every other movie. There was that moment that was Alien three where, yes, the Xenomorph puts its face right up next to hers.

I don’t know which came first, but it was the exact scene. 

Todd: It was . It was, it was the exact scene. Oh God. . 

Craig: But that’s the thing, like it’s not, the monster is fine when you see it in full and it’s running around or jumping around. It’s c g I, the CGI I is adequate. Like, it doesn’t look terrible. 

It 

Todd: doesn’t look amazing.

This guys’s totally fine because you can’t even see, because everything’s dark. It’s really dark. That’s what makes a CGI great. This 1997 CGI was, was not usually that fantastic, but it, it works perfectly in this movie because everything’s freaking dark. I, I’m sorry, I could not get over how dark this was when just two people are talking in a room, like one guy’s face will be almost entirely in shadow.

The other woman’s face will be almost entirely in shadow. I don’t know how they’re not tripping over each other. And it’s the middle of the day in their office when they’re supposed to be working and there are tons of people walking around. I mean, well, and 

Craig: it’s, it’s the Chicago Natural History Museum.

Even the lady, what is her name? Dr. Green, 

you 

Todd: mean Margot? Margot? 

Craig: Yeah. I Here, this is so funny, like in my notes, I was calling her Margo, Margot Margot, and then I realized that I was calling all the men by their last names. Like why is that, Craig? Why are you calling the only woman by her first name? . She’s 

Todd: a doctor.

so, so Dr. Green, you are a misogynist today. . So 

Craig: Dr. Green played by Penelope and Miller. I just 

Todd: wanna call Margo cause that’s how I wrote in the notes. Please do. That’s, you can call her whatever you want. I don’t care. I mean, because in my notes I’ve also got Tom Se More’s character down as Tommy . 

Craig: I think people will know who we’re talking about.

She like alludes to, they see she and Tom Sizemore, whatever his name is. De Augusta and I had to type that out every time that really pissed 

Todd: me off. That’s why I called him Tommy . That’s why he is Tommy in my notes, . I can’t write that crap. . 

Craig: So, so Margot and Tommy are in the lab, and first of all, it looks like the lower decks of like a, a ship like yes or something, A sub.

It’s like Freddy’s basement. . What? That’s exactly right. . Do you see a penny on the the ground? Only to establish that he’s superstitious, which is stupid and makes no 

Todd: difference. This is the fifth or sixth time they’ve established it. The most laughable thing is when they find the ship pulling into the harbor.

So there’s a ghost ship that pulls into the harbor. Okay. But some, something badly has happened. And I guess, we’ll, we’ll get to this point in a minute, but, but anyway, like there’s a cat scare. 

Craig: What cat? No, he gave me a heart attack. Was it a black cat? No. . 

Todd: No. And you see him like rubbing something in his finger, like he’s rubbing a trinket at the same time.

So instantly, you know, the like within five seconds of being this character. Oh, he’s superstitious because he asked about a black cat and he rubs this. And then it’s like every little superstition you could chalk up like. He avoids walking under ladders and he tells people not to step over dead bodies.

And every time, every time they’re like, what? He goes, cuz it’s bad luck. Don’t you know that? You idiot God. Uh, and by the way, yeah, this is based on a book and apparently in the book the detective is the opposite. He is disdainful of supers. That would 

Craig: make so much more sense.

As I was watching this, I just kept thinking, I bet the book was better. Like . 

Todd: It seems 

Craig: like it, I don’t know, because it’s not a bad story. It’s a simple monster movie story, but there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s fine. Mm-hmm. , it’s just, oh God, it’s so, oh, what I, I never did finish that story. So they find the penny and he’s like, Is it heads up.

And she’s like, no, it’s tails up. He’s like, leave it there. And she’s like, why? He’s like, because it’s bad luck

And then she’s like, she picks it up. She’s like, sorry, every penny counts here. Like what? Like what are you, you’re funding your lab from the loose change on the floor. . That doesn’t even make any sense. . 

Todd: There’s a lot of silly, cute cultiness that that often came up in these movies from the nineties too.

And, and now keep in mind this movie was written by like four people. So the minute you see that on the screen, you kind of, you temper your expectations. But I also loved the pair of cops who were constantly throughout the movie talking about coffee . 

Craig: I didn’t even know who they were. Was one of those, the guy with the ruffles on his.

Todd: Think what you talking about? I think, yeah. And the other guy was the black cop who gets it later. 

Craig: Oh God. I didn’t even know who they were. Like they just showed up all of a sudden and were in their own movie. Yes. Like they were just this, they were a buddy cop movie that happened to be happening at this gala.

And we just got to see them like joking around. You’re so right talking 

Todd: about coffee. 

Craig: Coffee’s terrible. It’s bitter. Very bitter looking, very dapper tonight. Think so. Cause I don’t see too many other guys wearing these ruffles. Ah, you look 

Todd: cool. 

Craig: like giving each other this shit. You know, like, oh man, I didn’t know who they were.

Yeah, . 

Todd: I don’t know their names. It doesn’t matter. I 

Craig: recognized one of ’em, the bigger balder one has played. Oh, I think he was Whitney Houston’s bodyguard in the bodyguard. I just came up with that, 

Todd: but I’m pretty sure he was Kevin Costner. . No, , 

Craig: no. One of, one of her original bodyguards that stays on. Oh, okay.

That stays on when Kevin Costner comes on. No, wasn’t Kevin Costner? That would’ve been really good though. That would’ve been even better if it was Kevin Costner. Oh, man. 

Todd: The people who were considered for this movie, like Al Pacino, Robert Taro. Oh, I know. Can you imagine? 

Craig: Yeah. They really wanted Harrison Ford for, uh, seism 

Todd: Moore’s role.

This is definitely more a seism more type movie really. I’m afraid. I don’t know. I can’t 

Craig: get a take on his character. Like, who is he? He’s just like this rough cop. But on the one hand, don’t they establish that like he’s their very best detective? Yeah. But for some reason nobody likes him. Like what? Yeah, like he’s like, he’s the best.

But his job is in jeopardy. Like I don’t understand. 

Todd: It’s always the way, right? He’s the tough, gritty, no nonsense, super skeptical guy who you know is never quite convinced that they found the answers and is gruff and orders people around. So nobody likes him, but they tolerate him cuz he gets the job done.

Except he’s not so skepticals to be wildly superstitious to the point where this like seems to freak him out like a phobia. It’s pretty stupid. . Well, especially when you consider they completely flipped it for the movie. Like what were they thinking? Were they thinking this movie cute or something? or this would make him more vulnerable?

I don’t know. Tom 

Craig: Sizemore was so excited about this role because as soon as he got started, he was working with like top tier directors and, and you know, so he had had some good experience or whatever, but this was his first lead and he was so excited about it and he was excited, you know, that he got to play a character who really drove the plot forward,

And I feel like I can tell in his performance that he was taking it really seriously. Right. But it almost comes across as melodramatic, both him and Penelope and Miller, who I like. Yeah, I really do like Penelope and Miller, but they are acting like the rent is due and they have to give every last ounce 

Todd: of their soul.

Penelope Anne Miller is in full on like, uh, what is she 

Craig: doing? It is crazy Pants. I straight up laughed out loud. Yeah, there is one, there is one part where , she is very much aware that a crime has been committed. She is on a crime scene and , semore, semore and the other cops are in the bathroom where this guy, this janitor has gotten his head chopped off and his brain sucked out.

And like the head and the brain and the body are all in different places. There’s blood everywhere and Sizemore and his guy are like talking about it and Penelope Pi Miller rounds the corner talking like she’s gonna ask a question, sees the body and has. A full out panic attack, like scream streaks at the top of her lungs, like yeah, is paralyzed in fear and continues screaming for a f like 15 seconds.

It was embarrassing. God, get her outta here. And I laughed out loud. It was, and, and it happened two or three more times. 

Todd: Like it happens when she’s being pursued by the monster. And no, get me wrong, like you’re gonna shar and be upset when you’re being pursued by a monster. But I just couldn’t get the image of my mind of her.

In like the bus stop in adventures in bath suit. , right? . It was like that same over acted wide-eyed, like oh my God kinda thing. Yes, yes, 

Craig: yes. Eyes as wide as they could be. And honest in that moment, like, she’s getting chased by this rhinos size monster. Uh, so I, I, I honestly had the thought go through my mind, like, Craig, if you were being chased by a rhinos size monster, your face would probably look stupid.

Todd: Don’t be critical . 

Craig: Dr. Green is doing the best you can. Oh my God. Okay. So like I, what I’m getting at is, it’s a bare bones story again. It’s a, uh, monster movie, so that’s fine. But there are a hundred characters. You don’t learn anything about any of them. They each have one personality trait and it’s too long.

it’s two hours. It’s too long, 

Todd: long, long. Oh God. I couldn’t believe like, no, it’s like an hour and 43 minutes. Right. I have an hour for 49 minutes, but it felt like two and a half. I could not believe how long it was. It’s so 

Craig: And how long it, there is, there is so much buildup. Like the, it starts out interesting and they, they get through the very first part really quickly.

There’s this scientist, he’s like in the Amazon, he’s like studying native rituals. They make him some hallucinogenic tea and he drinks it and he gets, you know, really scared by this native guy and like a beast costume. And then the next time we see him, he is frantic trying to get crates that he is loaded onto a ship to go.

To Chicago. Mm-hmm. , he’s trying to get the crates off and they’re like, sorry, we can’t get the crates off. It’s too late. And he’s like, oh, is that what he was trying to do? Yeah, he was trying to get them off. Oh. But they’re like, sorry, no deal. And he’s like, okay, darn. And he went and he hid and he somehow secretly boarded the boat.

And when he got on the boat, he started looking and looking and looking, but he couldn’t find what he was looking for. And so then the camera shows us that some of the crates had been left on the dock. So the crates that he was looking for were actually left back that he had gotten on the boat. 

Todd: Yeah. Uh, you know, this movie is simple in story, but very convoluted on the 

Craig: details I had to read about this.

I don’t know. I’m still so confused. I mean, I, I, I think I know what happened, the museum in, but, but here real 

Todd: quick. If you know what happened, just help me, help me out with this. Did he want, what was in the crates for himself? Did he want the Chicago crates onboard the ship? Did he want the Chicago crates off the ship?

And did he want those crates to go to Chicago or to never make it to Chicago? I couldn’t figure any of that. He wanted them 

Craig: not to go to Chicago, and he needed what was in the crates because I think that the museum ends up getting everything. Yes. Um, yeah, but the relic, the relic is in one shipment and the box, a different box is in the other one, and this box is full of leaves.

And they’re like, well, what’s. Packed in it. Like they assume that the leaves are just like the packing material, which would make sense. Um, they’re like, I don’t know, maybe it never got packed or whatever. Um, but then Dr. Green notices, there’s like caviar on, on the, uh, on 

Todd: the Leafs Caviar. , like just tasted , just tasted, you know what it is?

It’s obvious to all of us. Come on, . 

Craig: And she’s like, oh, what’s this? And her wheelchair, doctor, friend, the, some, the old guy, uh, Albert Frock played by James Whitmore, who’s an old guy that I’ve seen a million places. I didn’t even bother to look. I’m like, oh yeah, that old guy. I’ve seen him everywhere. 

Todd: that old guy.

I mean, he’s what Brooks The, the dude on the Shawshank Redemption. He can’t hack it outside of prison cuz he’s been there so long. I love that man. He’s, he’s, he’s great. He’s 

Craig: so good in that movie. Breaks your Heart. Mm-hmm. , but she’s like, look, there’s. Why she says, are these eggs or something? And he’s like, I don’t know, maybe fungus.

Look at 

Todd: it later. Burn it all he says, burn it all. Yeah, burn it all. Did she like, looks at him. Oh, right. And he’s like, well, you know, whatever. And she puts like a handful of the leaves with the fungus in a cooler so that she can examine it later with her very extremely fancy genetic sequencing machine or whatever that she, she alone apparently has developed, but needs more research funding in order to further develop.

Craig: And runs on like a Commodore 64 , right? 

Todd: With, with perfect, like Abso, it looks like a nineties website. What? This, uh, 

Craig: It looks butter. It looks like What? Yeah. What popped up when you put in like the AOL disc? Like . 

Todd: I was expecting like animated gifts of Adams to be spinning or something when she handle analyzed one of these things.

Oh my 

Craig: God. It’s like, but it bothered me cuz she, she has this leaf and it’s clearly got this crap all over it. And , this can’t have been intentional, but like, she touched the leaf with her hand and then immediately scratched herself. I’m like, you’re a, you’re a doctor ma’am, like 

Todd: we’re start 

Craig: calling you Margo.

And, and she, she like her job is to like identify. Unidentified species or, or something. And you know, they’re dealing with, they’re dealing with fungus and viruses and there is no protocol in this, in this lab at all . And at one point a bug, like a little tiny bug, gets in her cooler of. Leaves and the next time she opens her refrigerator, the cooler falls out and it jumps out and it’s like the size of a snoozer.

Todd: Right. And then she smashes it and then is like, well this is fascinating. Let me investigate it. Instead of like, holy shit. There’s a giant bug. Mm-hmm. that probably nobody has ever seen before. Can you come in here and have a look at this? What do you suppose this is Like, what are we just killing time here?

Craig: I don’t know. It was really, it was boring. So they, she, you know, runs it through her salad spinner and it turns out it’s got like reptilian blood dna. It’s a blend, it’s a mutt of uh, a bunch of different things. Yeah, a few different. And so they figure out, it all is connected to this relic that was supposed to be, you know, this shrine to this God, like catho or something.

And it’s like this destroyer, god, like destroyer of civilizations or something. And it was all parts of all different beasts. And there’s this one scientist, I feel so bad for this actress. There is one scientist who we check in on. Periodically, like every 10 minutes throughout the movie, just dusting away at this statue.

And that’s all she ever does . And like it takes forever. It takes forever. 

Todd: And she’s very intense at it. Right. And 

Craig: she’s doing it like with a, like a, like a mascara brush, like . It’s not dramatic at all, but we have to be reminded that she’s constantly doing it so that about two thirds of the way through the movie, it can be done and then we can never see her again.

Todd: Yeah. Or. What’s the point? There’s no connection. Like I never got. I thought, is this a mystical thing? Like it, once this is put together, is there gonna be some kind of spirit released or something? I mean, that’s intensity would’ve made sense. It keeps ominously cutting back, back to her, like in the darkness with the camera swooping around.

And once again, I’m still like, I’m pretty sure she would need more light, not less to be able to put this thing together properly, but okay. It’s dramatic. And then it just is in the superstition exhibit, like they always planned for it to be there, even though it clearly arrived in pieces like a day before the gala.

Oh yeah. There’s a whole, 

Craig: yeah, it’s got a whole setup for. Yeah, it would only make sense if you, we are paying so much attention to this shrine. I guess the reveal is kind of what it looks like. Be it, there should be some connection. There should be some sort of mystical connection between the Shrine and the Beast, but there’s not, there’s not at all.

They just happen to 

Todd: both be there. Well, this is one of those points where you just figure the book is probably better because the book probably has more. There has has to be of 

Craig: this in there. Yeah. And then so it’s a bunch of like the monster is. Surreptitiously, like killing people. It kills the guy in the bathroom,

All you see, you know, this guy just wants to smoke a doob in the bathroom, you know? Mm-hmm. , he’s just doing his own thing, gets, you know, ripped out, uh, from under there. And the, you said it was gory? I don’t know. I it is, it is, but I feel like I didn’t even, oh, it is notice because, um, , I dunno, it just felt a little silly.

Not any sillier than anything else we’ve seen. But this monster’s mo is that it rips its victim’s heads out, and then somehow like stamps a huge hole in the back of their head and sucks their brains out so that it can eat their hypothalamus and, and leave the rest. And if you want to enjoy this movie, take a shot every time they say hypothalamus, and at the end you’ll be dead.

Todd: I’m not sure I’ve ever heard hypothalamus being uttered in any other movie in my entire life. And I think that’s because this film took it all and every time it just sucked the word hypothalamus out of every movie in history and planted 

Craig: it in the script. I, I, I have visions of them like having to do, uh, like retakes with , Tom Semore, hypothalmus,

I don’t, I don’t know why. I just have this idea that he would struggle with that word. What was that word again? Hypothalmus. Yeah, but I don’t know. I, and I don’t, I don’t mean to, I’m not trying to rag on time, size more. Y I didn’t chime in when you said something before. Yeah. He had his struggles, um, but his struggles were mostly self-destructive.

Yeah. Uh, I’m sure that they affected the people around him as addiction always does, but addiction is a disease and you can’t blame a person really for that. I’m sure he made some poor choices, so, . Yeah. He, I, I really do think he’s a really a fine actor. He, you’re right, he always kind of played the same role, but that’s the role he aspired to.

Um, yeah, those are the roles that he, you know, grew up watching the tough guys in these movies, and that’s what he wanted to play. Um, and, and he usually did another role, uh, a movie that I remember him from was, um, hardened Souls. I think I’ve mentioned it before. It’s a Robert, early Robert Downey Jr 

Todd: movie.

That’s a cool one. My mom loved that 

Craig: movie. Yeah. It’s a sweet little romcom kind of movie. And he’s in that, um, and he plays a, a similar kind of tough guy, but you know, a tough guy with a soft heart. And, uh, he was cute and he’s done other good stuff. I, I saw him, um, he did at the height of like exploitation.

reality tv. Not that it’s not still, but like back in the days of like Extreme makeover in the Swan in those days, he did one of those celebrity rehab shows. 

Todd: Oh, Dr. Drew, right? I 

Craig: think I, I, yeah. But anyway, some show where he openly discussed his, uh, issues and, you know, when he was sober, he definitely had a temper, but he was also, you know, detoxing and stuff.

But he seemed like a very thoughtful, intelligent, uh, empathetic person. But you know, he was just obviously a person who was struggling. So if I make any jokes at his expense, I do it in good humor. Uh, cuz I do think the guy was a good actor. Uh, it’s unfortunate that, um, he had those struggles and, and I know that there were times in his life where, , he would get clean for periods of time, and his friends and the people he worked with, with staged interventions, and there were people out there who really cared about him and wanted him to get better.

And, but addiction is, addiction’s a bitch, you know? Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s tough. 

Todd: So, yeah. I mean, my heart goes out to the guy. I didn’t mean to sound like, uh, I thought he was a, an asshole. 

Craig: No, no. You were actually , you were covering, you were covering for me because when we talked about it, I said, I don’t know.

You know, Tom, uh, sebos got kind of a sorted pass, and I just didn’t, I, I feel like we have to acknowledge it if we’re gonna talk about ’em as we always talk about these people and their lives. Yeah. But I, I also don’t wanna linger on it. It it, yeah. It doesn’t have to define him. You know, he was a, he was a fine actor as well.

Anyway, so then he comes in and he’s doing this investigation and that, like, at first there’s a body here and there. I need you to clarify something from me, because there’s a whole subplot where these two. Young runaway boys Yes. Decide to run away from school. And so to , they run away from, to spend the night from school to go to the museum.

What , I’m 

Todd: not positive about this, but I think it was a school field trip to the museum. They were planning to run away from the museum trip to go to like a bar or so, or do something else, and other kids like, no, no, no, no. They’ll catch us. So they ended up going on the field trip. But I think the implication, although once again it’s, it’s like.

It’s like blink and you miss it, right? They decide to stay overnight. 

Craig: Yeah. Guess. I mean, I, but I didn’t even like, I guess they just linger around till it closes because they hear there’s nothing like, 

Todd: it doesn’t show us any of this. All it is is, you know, we’ve got all, we got them and you know, they kind of introduce us to Penelope and Miller’s character because they in a very awkward scene that made no sense.

Just randomly wander up to her and stare at her while she’s putting her bike up. Like, oh, she’s hot or something. underneath her sunglasses and all this stuff. Hey, couldn’t get it. 

Craig: Hey, didn’t your parents teach you not to stare? Didn’t yours teach you not to get dressed in the street? Good morning, Dr.

Green. Morning Doctor, what kind of a doctor are you? I’m an evolutionary biologist. What’s that? Someone trying to figure out where a 

Todd: tails went. I’m like, okay, I see how we’re gonna get this position in this movie. Thanks Dr. Green. And then she walks in there, they walk in there, and then there’s all this crap with her and, and everything that happens.

And then suddenly there’s a, you know, this, the museum’s closing and she’s sending everybody home and she’s still working late at night. Diligently, like researchers in this movie do. There’s a shot of the atrium, then the dark, and we just hear, I don’t, I couldn’t even see them, but we heard the kids talking almost like a voiceover, right?

Oh, it’s really scary in here. Well, what do you expect? We’re here, you know, late at night and everybody else is gone home. You think they’re gonna catch us? Nah, nobody’s gonna catch us in here. Oh, okay. Well, these are gonna be our first victims. That’s gonna be bold. Were you? Well, 

Craig: but that’s the thing. We see them again later.

They’re gonna be 

Todd: the kids that get wrapped up in it, you know, somehow. And like, you know, they’re gonna follow them through the movie. But that’s, but, but that’s 

Craig: my, my question is, there’s that scene and I could see it. Okay. Um, because, you know, they’re, they’re in this huge hall. There are no other people there as it’s closing apparently.

But it’s the, like, the huge place with like the big dinosaur in the middle. Like it’s this huge atrium or whatever, all the 

Todd: dioramas and glass around, it’s huge them and stuff. Yeah. It’s 

Craig: cool. So they’re in there, they’re looking around and then they’re like, well, we, I guess we’re gonna stay the night. Okay.

Um, and then we’re away from them for a while and then we come back to them and they’re. Behind the scenes, they’re, you know, in the stairwells where the labs are like in the basement or something, and they smell something bad and everybody smells something bad. When the creature’s around, it must stink.

Um, so they smell something bad and then they hear something like a roar or something, and then it cuts away from them. And then I don’t recall ever seeing them again. Do we see 

Todd: them one more time? It’s the same night the guy gets killed and, you know, the security guard smoking the tube in the, in the toilet gets killed.

Uh, and then suddenly the cops are there and we see the two kids huddled with blankets or whatever. Oh. And they usher the kids out. Okay. And I thought maybe the kids discovered the body and they’re the ones who called the cops, or they just, I, I didn’t, I didn’t get the kid thing at all how they were connected to it.

But then now they’re gone. I don’t know if the kids saw something and got spooked and that’s another thing, but like, who knows? Cuz that’s all. It’s like they’re deleted scenes with these kids. I, yeah, maybe they’re not. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t 

Craig: know. It was weird. But I, I missed that. I missed the part where they were outside safe.

I didn’t know what happened to them. Mm-hmm. . But that’s, uh, and Tom Semore is investigating and he thinks it’s a serial killer when they have a body. I don’t even remember whose body they have, the, the janitor or something, I guess. Um, but it is evident that this was an animal attack like . And he, it’s no question.

No, there’s no question. And he even says something like to the, I don’t know, to the, the, the zany what? Coroner or whatever she is the lady who’s, um, preparing the body. She’s, she’s real funny. I like that bit. Yeah. And, and he says something, he’s like, what could have done this? She’s like, Something big like , but then he just goes on investigating it as though it is an insane person.

Yes. Um, that is killing people. And they eventually find some, it’s, it’s, it’s a fake out scare. I mean, it is a good jump scare, but they’re like searching through the basement and they’ve got these dogs and first they find a guy like a, a guy. jumps out and one of the cops shoots him like 15 times. Um, and I was like,

He just shot a vagrant. , yeah. But apparently it’s okay because apparently said . Apparently this vagrant was a convicted rapist and a suspected serial killer who, who just 

Todd: happened, but then hiding out the basement . 

Craig: There was some, didn’t they also say like he had some connection to the boat? , the, we, we, I skipped the, all the dead people on the ship.

When the ship arrived, everybody on it was dead. Yeah. And their brains sucked out. And their hypes,

Todd: I love it. Later in the movie, Penelope and Mil, you know, it’s one of those moments in the, in the lab where they’re putting two and two together and I can’t remember the exact line, but she says something like, oh yeah, they’re examining it. She, and the, and the, I know I’m jumping ahead, but I just gotta get this out.

She and the dude in the wheelchair are like looking at, you know, what they’re getting from the, the examination of the beetle. And she says This thing, this thing has all these different things in it. It’s got this and it’s got that and it’s got reptile and, and some, some other one we’re not sure what.

And the guy looks at the paper and he is like, this is odd. All of the chemical properties in here. Also what you would find in the hypothalamus . And she says, Do you think there might be some connection between that? And I’m like, no, absolutely no connection. must be a pure coincidence. And 

Craig: her face, her face is like, I think you might be onto something.

Todd: No, it’s, it’s very common murder technique, you know, to rip people’s brains out and take their hypothalamus away. Oh 

Craig: God. And they, they, they know that they’re taking the hypothalamus out because when the coroner goes to weigh the brain, she’s like, wait a minute. This thing’s light. Even for a man,

Oh, that, that she’s got jokes. She has got jokes. She, 

Todd: I liked her. Oh yeah. She was hilarious. I did, I read that this was her last film. I don’t know. I didn’t know 

Craig: who she was. She’s funny. Um, there’s other good people in this movie too. The, the, the, the lady in charge of the, um, museum, her name is Dr. Cuthbert.

Yes. And she’s played by, she’s played by Linda Hunt. I love Linda Hunt . 

Todd: She’s great. Who doesn’t love her. And the great thing about her is she can have the same outfit and, and hairstyle and glasses in every movie she’s in. Uhhuh, , Uhhuh, . It’s like they, they write these roles for her. It’s fantastic. Yeah, she’s great.

Like, 

Craig: I don’t even know, like in the things that I, I, I, she’s in so many things. Um, yeah. And God, she, I, I’ve never even seen Harold and Mod, but I think that’s her big, that’s her like big movie. Well, I guess 

Todd: she was in kindergarten Cop, uh oh. She was with Penelope and Miller before this. That’s right. Yeah.

The, she played the principal. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. . She was, she was good. That’s such a stupid movie. I love it. and, uh, I, this is another terrible movie. She was in She Devil with Roseanne Barr and Meryl Streep. 

Todd: Oh God. That’s 

Craig: a movie. That movie’s horrible. . It’s so bad. It like that. To me, that’s a movie that’s so bad. It’s good.

I just revel in, in watching Meryl Streep in that movie because I can’t imagine who tricked her into being in that movie . And she gives it everything she’s got. She still does a good job. It’s can’t be in Fun. I, but it is. It’s a terrible movie, but it’s hilarious. 

Todd: That one played on like HBO or cable or something.

A lot, all the time. . 

Craig: Oh, I recommend it . If you haven’t seen it, watch it. . . 

Todd: Like, you wanna laugh? , you gonna laugh? I mean, it’s built as a comedy, but not that kind of comedy. It’s, it’s a dark comedy. 

Craig: It’s, it’s pretty hilarious. Okay, so anyway, I guess we’re bored with this movie. I am. Right? Um, they, they, they’re looking around for the monster, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The bodies keep piling up. They killed that vagrant, but, but Tom Sizemore is still convinced that it’s gotta be him until then, the mo they finally just find the monster, like . Yeah. Eventually they look hard enough. They get deep, deep, deep into the bowels, of the building, and, uh, they have dogs. And the dogs smell the stink and go chasing and it kills one of the dogs and throws the body at its feet and their feet, and then, uh, kills one of the cops.

Todd: Um, oh, it’s so great. I, I love this that they’re down in the sewers below the museum and at one point, Somebody says, did you know that these sewers go all the way to Lake Michigan? And he’s like, wait a minute. Do you mean to tell me that if someone was on a boat in Lake Michigan, they could come through the sewers to the museum?

like, yeah, they could. This is so dumb. And, and why would the monster do this? This is the other part I don’t understand. I guess it needed to find the crates and it knew that they were at the museum. And so it went through the tunnels. I didn’t to get to museum, didn’t cause it. Also knew that there were tunnels there.

And what did it need in the crates? I, I don’t know. Did it need to be by its relic? It needed those, 

Craig: the, was it protein? Whatever she found in those eggs, um, that fungus or whatever it is, has animal hormones, not protein hormones. It’s got hormones in it. And we get. Uh, the, the old guy in the wheelchair tells us, he’s like, oh, the legend must have been based on truth.

Okay, so these native people, there’s this plant or something. I don’t know where this hormone comes from. They get it from the, these leaves, I guess. And if they feed it, To an animal or something, then the animal will turn into one of these big beasts. Mm-hmm. and, uh, they can keep giving it the protein cuz it, or the hormones cuz it needs the hormones to stay alive.

But then when they want to use it to attack an enemy, they’ll stop giving it the hormones and then they’ll go into hiding so it doesn’t know where they are. And then it will kill all of their enemies to eat their hypothalamus . 

Todd: Wow. How do you, did you have to read about this or did you ask? No, he 

Craig: explained, no, he explains it in all the detail that I am.

Todd: When he was explaining it, I was just like, you know what, I, I, I don’t even care , I’m not gonna like this. Cause I couldn’t figure out what the hell he was talking about. It was so convoluted. And it all comes at once. And there’s your explanation. Uhhuh. , right. And it was like 

Craig: he just figures out the whole thing.

in an instance. And so then, and so then they, the, the natives who released the beast, then they just stay in hiding so it can’t eat their hypothalamus. And eventually when it doesn’t have any more of that hormone, it will die. And so now I don’t understand how this happened. I guess it’s because he drank the tea with the eggs in it.

The scientist from the beginning is the monster. 

Todd: Yeah. He’s one of the pieces. Yeah. There’s, he’s, he’s the, the human element that 

Craig: comes out and, and I, right. And I, I think he was looking desperately looking for that crate because maybe if he could have kept. Eating the hormone, then he wouldn’t have turned into the monster, but be, no, but then he turned into the, I don’t, I don’t know.

Todd: I don’t know. You’d have to read the book for that. 

Craig: I think. I, I guess, but he didn’t get it and so he turned into the monster. But I, I think maybe that explains how the monster would know, I guess maybe the scientist knew that there were these tunnels. Well, 

Todd: The scientist definitely recognizes her. Oh my God.

We get our alien three scene later. That’s, 

Craig: that’s the thing. So like, it begs the question, so they, they, she gets somehow, like the, the monster literally goos under a door and she scoops up, she scoops up some of the goo and puts it in her salad spinner and. Like it takes a while, but it eventually tells her that it’s like 33% human and it, it says 33% human.

And she looks at the old guy and she’s like, are you telling me that this thing is part human? And he’s like, no, I’m telling you that it’s more than part human

Todd: 33%. And I love how like the, the machine I guess, has to spin for a while to give her all the complete information. And our big reveal is when she ends up back in the lab, after they get chased away from the mon, you know, the, the monsters chased them to the lab, but they kind of barricaded against the door.

And like you said, it goose under and whatnot. She comes back in to look at the computer and the computer has finished his calculation. And not only does it tell us it’s human, but it tells it, it’s, it’s sophisticated enough to tell us exactly who it is. Yeah. give us a picture. Uhhuh , his personal information and everything.

This computer was way ahead of its time and she definitely should have gotten her grant for this. 

Craig: Which begs the question, is he still in there? And I believe that they answer that question for us when, uh, first of all, the cheapest gala in the history of the world is happening upstairs. , like they are in this, the food , they are in, they are in this beautiful, the, I, I briefly, briefly lived in Chicago.

I never went to the Natural History Museum, but it’s gorgeous. Uh, just Oh yeah, seeing it here. It’s beautiful. It’s a wonderful set. It’s awesome. They wanted to film in New York and the, uh, natural History Museum there, but they, I, I guess in the book, the administration of the museum is portrayed poorly, so they didn’t want to do it.

Um, the Chicago Museum jumped at the opportunity, but it looks great except for there’s this gala set up in the back that looks like. a high school prom. Yes. . And like, it’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever, or like a a, a haunted house in a frat house. , like Right. This is what it looks like. Like the whole city is there.

It is a black tie affair. It’s been a huge deal. Like they have to have this gala. If they don’t have this gala, civilization as we know, it will fall apart. . 

Todd: That’s why that’s important. This is to them, they practically say it. Yes.

the most important thing ever. To the point where sh the, oh God. What? That scene where the Mayor of Chicago calls the cop personally to tell him that he better not stop the gala from happening. It’s so embarrassing. . I know, right? . That’s really sweet. I wanna play that whole scene right here so people can laugh at it.

This is Mayor Row. 

Craig: What’s your first name? Lieutenant Vincent. May I call you Vincent? Sure. Good. You can call me, your Honor. Tell you what, Vincent, looking forward to this gala tonight. My wife is too. She bought a killer dress that shows off her cleavage. Did you ever see my wife’s cleavage? It’s in all the papers.

Can’t say that I have, your honor. Well, you’re one of the few people in the city of Chicago who hasn’t. That cleavage helped get me elected. I bet you don’t know what to say. No, sir, I don’t. So the thing is, Vincent, this gala tonight is very important. It’s important to the museum. It’s important to my wife.

It’s important to the city, and it’s real important to Mr. And Mrs. Blazedale. You know who they are? No. Well, they’re good friends of mine. Real good friends. They’re good friends of the city, real 

Todd: good friends. It’s so 

Craig: embarrassing. And then there’s like a red, like they redeem the mayor at the end. Like the mayor sticks up for the cup.

Like, yeah, leave that guy alone. Like what? You’re, you’re 

Todd: an asshole. Like you’re the dude , this is all 

Craig: your fault. None of this would’ve happened if it weren’t for you specifically. Oh God. And my, my favorite part is when they know that there are dead people, like, and, and all the cops like storm the, the, the people who are wet, soaking wet, cuz they’ve been down in the basement, they’ve seen the monster.

They’re like, there’s danger. We’ve gotta get outta here. And they’re like, we, we can get out, we can go through these tunnels and these rich assholes are like, no. I’m not going . 

Todd: Right? . And like the 

Craig: cops are so concerned. If I were those cops, I’d be like, fine, fuck you, then come on. Like , right? Uh, but they, they like beg and plead with them to come and some of them end up staying back.

Some of ’em go just so we can get monster attacks in both locations and I, those are fun and exciting, I guess. You know, a big CGI monster. Storming around the museum, breaking stuff, chasing people. 

Todd: But this monster is everywhere, and it’s down in the lab, and then in the next shot, suddenly it’s in the atrium.

And there’s these huge, there’s this huge scene when they finally get attacked, the rich people in the atrium stood behind. That’s the place where the douche bag people kind of get it right? Yeah. And at the same time, the cops are repelling down, you know, like worms on a hook for this thing, and it’s grabbing the cops.

And you get this really impressive scene. I, that was my favorite part. I think it was done with miniatures, right? Where, you know, you just see full on, it’s not dark at all anymore. Uh, that monster grab one of those guys from one of those wires that he’s dangling from, clamp his jaw around his head, rip his head off, and toss it aside, and then leap over it.

This lasts for like, A good five seconds. Yeah. It was a good sequence. It is a good sequence and it is gory. I mean, that is, you do not see something that explicit in that gory, usually in a mainstream movie like this. So the, you know, there are all this stuff going down and I then there’s a bit where they pull one guy up and he’s like screaming and screaming and suddenly stop screaming, oh, you know it’s gonna happen.

Mm-hmm. up on the roof. They pull him finally out of the skylight and it’s just half his body, right? Mm-hmm. and then, What are they doing now? The monster’s gone and it’s chasing people down in the sewers. Like how did the monster get from there? To the sewers then to the lab then back there. What are the cops doing in the meantime?

Because this place locks up like, it’s like a fricking nuclear facility. Like they have state secrets in this place. That’s the security system, right? 

Craig: And who who did that? The, the ghost from death spot. Like why ? 

Todd: This goes haywire, right? Yeah. Like 

Craig: for, uh, for no explained reason. Like the whole sec Secur.

They’re like, oh no, the whole system is freaking out. Why? 

Todd: Everything’s tripping at once. Why ? That’s a very good question, . But I, I want to blame the ghost from Des Spa.

That’s a perfect explanation. Oh God. Oh, I would rather be talking by Des Spa. I know. The movie 

Craig: also tries to be, Jurassic Park. Yes. . And in that, like, it’s got some guys in the control room and it’s got, you know, the guards and then it’s got, you know, like the lady Doctor . 

Todd: Mm-hmm. . 

Craig: Good point. So it’s, so it’s she, you know, she’s like scientist, you know, it’s, it’s, so, it’s Jurassic Park too.

And, um, but it’s, it, but it also tries to be Jurassic Park by giving us kind of quirky characters, but that works so well in Jurassic Park. Yeah. Like, you know, with Ned and, and, uh, Samuel L. Jackson, like these, these little side characters are interesting here. They’re not like there’s this dumb ass. , uh, scientist Oh, who is like Penelope Miller’s rival or something, and he’s just this weasley little guy.

And from the time he’s introduced, I’m like, oh my God, does the monster eat him already? Like, , you’re right. . 

Todd: He’s introduced as bait, basically. 

Craig: Yeah. Oh my God. He has more screen time than the monster. I’m like, I hate this guy. Stop. Yeah. And, and then there’s the buddy cops, uh, doing their thing and it’s just, I don’t know.

It feels like there’s a bunch of different movies. There are. There are literally like four or five different movies going on here. You really are. Uh, then, I don’t know, this is stolen from another movie too. Eventually it chases Penelope and Miller all over the place. I was really disappointed that they took the time earlier in the movie to show us a huge.

Tank of flesh eating Beatles. And then nothing else happened with that. Yes, I, I guess there was a deleted scene. Somebody got eaten by the Beatles, but they decided it was too gross and so they cut it. But, uh, if they cut that, they should have cut the introduction of the Beatles, because I wanted them to eat somebody.

We were waiting for that. It chases her all throughout and like, there’s this scene where she runs through 15 doors, , and then the thing comes charging through, busting through those doors one by one. It looks great. Um, it looks a lot like the faculty, but uh, then she spills all the chemicals. I don’t know what happens, but it eventually, it, it, it gets to that alien three scene where she’s pinned up against a wall and the thing is right in front of her and she says, I know who you are.

And then I guess the scientist is still inside of him of the monster because it licks her boobs. What 

Todd: like. Yeah, it felt really out of place in this movie. 

Craig: The thing is like if it had showed its humanity by like licking her face or something, which I think happens in Alien four, that may have been something, but it very deliberately licked her breast in a lascivious way.

Like mm-hmm. . Oh, so this scientist was a perv too, like , right? Is 

Todd: that the point? Without respecting the audience enough to even set up that he might have been this kind of guy, like, we don’t know this guy. That’s the problem. Right? Well, right. Or 

if 

Craig: it were like, if it were a hollow man situation where they had a history.

Yeah, that’s what I mean. Yeah. But no, it’s not there. There’s nothing, there’s no character 

Todd: development or like, you know, that she had alluded to a relationship between them, right. Or she had talked about how he harassed her at work a lot or something like that. Right? No, no. It licks her. Yeah, it licks her boobs.

Oh 

Craig: my God. I don’t know. And then she blows 

Todd: it up. Well, she gets all Walter White with the chemicals and puts something magical together in a jar with a bunch of stuff real quick that she can toss at it. So as her, it licks her. The elevator comes just in time. So she’s able to toss this thing at it as she ducks into the elevator, which ignites all the flames in the place.

And now she has a giant flaming monster coming after her when she gets down to the crown floor. So then she jumps into this giant, it looks like a big metal dumpster. But at the same time, at the beginning of the movie that they had been setting up the Beatles, they were talking about the process by which they deal with the, the animal remains that come in.

And so it’s like a rhinoceros and they’re throwing into this large thing that is a maceration tank they call it, which is supposed to be some chemicals that eat, sort of like dissolve the flesh and stuff off of the animals to a point where then they can release the Beatles onto it, where the Beatles will strip it all completely down to the bone and you know, just get every tiny little piece.

So the minute she leaps into this maceration tank, I’m thinking, oh shit. Like this went from bad to worse, right? But, She’s in the maceration tank. You know, she screaming Fuck you at it closes the door. By this time, the monster hasn’t outrun the explosion and he explodes into a million pieces, but she’s safe inside the tank.

Yeah, 

Craig: a metal tank full of water. She’s fine. Like this is 

Todd: honestly like really silly. Like this whole sequence when she gets down to the ground floor and the monster’s on fire and it’s chasing her. I 

Craig: mean, it looks fantastic, but it’s dumb. It’s dumb. Like no, no animal that is entirely engulfed in flame.

Every square centimeter of its body engulfed in flame is gonna be chasing. Somebody like it just, it’s stupid. 

Todd: Yes. Absolutely not. And not only that, but it’s one of these weird movie things they do where the explosion is coming down the hall. Mm-hmm. like explosions do that, which they don’t, but this is a small room.

It, it wasn’t that big of a room, but to go across this whole room, this monster is running towards her and this explosion is behind the monster. And this is like 10 seconds of her out running The monster, the monster out running this explosion while it’s on fire. She leaps into it and finally the explosion catches up, but it’s not in slow motion, you know?

I mean, it’s like this is really slow moving flame. It just kind of defies all physics in the middle of it. It was so long that in the middle of it I was like, wait a. . All of this is ridiculous. I had time to think that, but yeah. I don’t know why her flesh didn’t get eaten off at least a little bit while she was in the maceration.

I don’t 

Craig: think it, i, I don’t think it’s chemicals. I think basically what they do is they cook the meat off the bones. Um, so I think it’s just, I think they just like boil it until the flesh comes off. Oh, okay. Because cuz she, she called it like rhino OSUs soup. She said, what, what’s the soup of the day? And the lady’s like rhino OSUs soup.

Oh, okay. I see what you’re saying. I think they just cook it and whatever. I don’t know. And then it cuts to outside and the cops are there and some stupid cop is like, I don’t even remember who it was. May somebody’s like that Augusta’s gonna pay for this. And the mayor’s like, Hey, you leave that guy alone.

And then he gives Augusta a look and they nod at each other and they walk away, and then that’s the end. It was really dumb. Like there was just no, uh, no characterization at all. Um, the characters were entirely flat. The acting, and again, honest to God, I, I like both these people. I like Tom Sizemore and I like Penelope and Miller.

I don’t think Penelope and Miller, it’s some kind of like Oscar worthy actress, but she’s worked for a long time and yeah, I’ve seen her in a lot of things that I’ve enjoyed her in. I liked her in kindergarten Cop. I, there’s been a lot of things that I, and, and she pops up all the time. Oh, sh I, I think.

She just played, um, Jeffrey Dahmer’s mom in, uh, the Ryan Murphy, uh, Jeffrey Dahmer show. Oh, really? Yeah. And she was really good. Really good. She’s, she’s a good actress, but in this like, just melodramatic and I, uh, can only imagine that it, she was directed that way. Cause I think they all were. And the guy that directed this movie, Peter Hyams, he did.

Time Cop. You’re a Van Dam fan. Is Time Cop a good movie? Yeah. 

Todd: I like me some time. Well, no time Cop’s not a great movie. of the Van Dam Oof, wide kind of falls in line with all the rest of them. He did 

Craig: End of days. I wanna say that’s a 

Todd: Schwartzenegger movie. Yeah. We’re probably gonna do that one on this show at some point.

It has been requested. He 

Craig: did a trippy movie called Stay Tuned with John 

Todd: Ritter. Oh God, I remember that. Were they go were they They’re going through different TV shows 

Craig: and, and things. Yeah. And that was supposed to be like a kid’s movie. I think that movie was Trippy . 

Todd: Yeah. I even remember seeing that on cable too.

That was a, that was a nutso film. 

Craig: So anyway, I don’t know. It’s not like this guy does Oscar bait, but, uh, he’s been around, I don’t know, as far as a, like a popcorn flick. Okay. It’s too long. Mm-hmm. . , 

Todd: it’s too long and well, it’s got too much setup. That doesn’t even matter. Right. I feel like they’re just trying to kill time and set up this, like you said, I mean it for what ends up just being a monster.

Chasing people around. Yeah. And the monster chasing people around doesn’t really make sense. You know, when you compare it to Jurassic Park, you know, you have these big, you know, you have like three or four big set pieces, but they all kind of flow and they all make sense. And you know, as to where the dinosaurs could go and can’t go.

It’s not like they just pop up around a corner, ah, we’re here, you know? Mm-hmm. . Whereas this monster’s just like that. Like one minute’s in the sewers, one minute it’s, it’s in the big place. Next minute it’s in the lab, it kills that guy in the wheelchair. while the others are in another room next door and don’t even notice it.

And I guess it’s trying to be intelligent and sciency and whatnot because the, I think the director made a big deal about how you, if you can’t scare people unless you know, you get them intellectually. And so I can see it’s really trying hard to like incorporate the superstition and the science and, and the genetics and all this stuff in it, but I found it awfully confusing.

Yeah. And then a little laughable, honestly. Especially when it comes down to this guy’s in there. I just raised too many more questions for me. Like, why, why did this guy turn into a monster? And what was his end game? Why did 

Craig: he go to the museum? That’s it. I, no, but that’s the thing like Right, why the, because really the monster’s only end game is, it’s hungry, like, right?

Like it has to eat brains to survive. 

Todd: It’s hungry for hypothalamus. . Great. 

Craig: I guess. I guess it, I guess it just. , I guess it just felt more at home at the museum. I don’t, I don’t get it because it’s not connected to that thing. 

Todd: Or at least if it is, why did it spare the other dog? I don’t even understand that bit.

I I, maybe it was full . 

Craig: Maybe it tried a dog hypothalamus and didn’t like it. , 

Todd: this have been like not eating dog again, that’s for sure. It’s, there’s Tom 

Craig: Semore at some point too. Like they have a little face off, like they meet up in a hallway and just stare at each other for a second and then it goes away.

Yeah. . 

Todd: That was weird. 

Craig: That’s right. I get Tom Sizemore has the power with his gaze. I don’t know. Uh, rest in peace. Tom Sizemore. Uh, you’re good. You are a fine. 

Todd: Amen. Well, that’s it for this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, enjoy it. Please share with a friend, patreon.com/chainsaw podcast, our website, our new Instagram channel, all that stuff.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Hoooo boy. After our clue in the last episode, did you guess that we’d be doing Nicholas Cage’s remake of The Wicker Man this week? This heavily-memed, notoriously bad remake of an absolute classic genre-bending 1973 film is so full of terrible dialogue, hammy acting, head-scratching plot holes, and just plain dumb subject matter that it actually feels more like a mockery of the original than an homage. So naturally, we enjoyed talking about it much more than we enjoyed watching it.

For heaven’s sake, if you’ve never seen the original (which we’ve already gushed over in a previous episode), watch it BEFORE you take this one on – if you even bother checking this one out at all. We certainly wouldn’t recommend it. But anyway, enjoy the conversation!

The Wicker Man (2006)

Episode 336, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, we cap off our, uh, month of remakes with a movie that we tease. We teased at a, a last episode. We said, uh, this is probably one of the most notorious remakes. We had a few guesses actually come through, but, uh, nobody 

Craig: guessed, oh, wait, before you say, I didn’t see that.

Who, what were the. 

Todd: Oh, somebody guessed. Uh, I’m sorry. There was one guest that came through and that was the Nightmare in Elm Street remake. Oh, yeah. 

Craig: That’s terrible. Which is 

Todd: also terrible. Notoriously bad, right? . Yeah. And I haven’t even seen 

Craig: it. Oh, don’t, it don’t. It’s awful. I, when we talked about doing this month, that was one of the ones I’m like, I don’t want to do it.

Todd: I’m can’t imagine. Well, this movie, as soon as I heard it had come out, and this was, uh, almost 20 years ago, well, 15 years ago, I was a completely unenthusiastic about it because it was a remake of one of my all time favorite movies and one that we’ve done before on this podcast. And that is, uh, the 2006 version of The Wicker Man.

Yeah. Starring Nicholas Cage, Uhhuh , and directed by Neil Lab. This movie gets no love. It has been mocked in memes and videos and things ever since it came out. It has kind of gone, gone down, not just as a bad remake, but just as a bad movie. Yeah. And early when we were talking about remakes, you know, and remember you asked me, what do you think about remakes?

And we were both pretty kind to the idea of remakes. You know, we both said, uh, who cares? Like you wanna remake a movie? So, it deserves it or needs it. I never felt that this movie ever deserved a remake. The the original Wicker Man. And, and you can go back and listen to our episode on it, but I gushed all over it in that episode.

It’s just an interesting, odd, Uhhuh, , beautiful piece of filmmaking that’s got a lot of different things going on. It’s just intriguing, I think from beginning to end. You just don’t know what’s happening, what’s going on, and there’s music in it and yeah, 

Craig: there’s, that’s what I was gonna say. It’s weird, but for whatever reason it works now.

I’ve only seen it. Yeah. I’ve only seen it the one time that we watched it for the show. Um, but I do remember it being weird, but I like, there is like a whole musical number, right? Like in the, in the bar. 

Todd: Multiple, yeah, in the bar around the May pole. There’s kind of a dance and, and singing scene out outside where the girls are running naked and jumping around a fire.

It’s Yep, yep. All through it, you know, and the opening credit scene, um, sequence has this gorgeous song over it. It, it’s just a movie that defies description really. Right. In such a good way. And like you said, it, it shouldn’t work, but it does. It just so oddball, but it just works beautifully well, and 

Craig: somehow it managed to still be suspenseful.

and, and, ah, I don’t know about scary, but you know, I, it was intriguing, you know, I was definitely like in it for the ride. Uh, and, and was curious as to how things were gonna play out. Yeah. 

Todd: Well it’s a mystery 

Craig: in a way. Yeah. And this movie is such a, I don’t know, like it doesn’t stray that far. Like it changes some central things.

Oh God. But it doesn’t really stray all that far. Like, I read somewhere that something like 80% of the dialogue is verbatim from the original. A lot of it is sometimes in different contexts, but still, uh, 80%, that’s a lot. So you would think that, you would think that somehow it would translate and hopefully even be better.

It just, it just, it’s awful. , 

Todd: not just as a remake, it’s just an awful movie. And, you know, I’m going back to again, we were very kind to the idea of remakes. And one thing that we had kind of both agreed on was, you know, the originals still out there. Yeah. So if you wanna remake it, go ahead and remake it.

It’s not like you can’t, it’s not like it erases the, the original from the map. But , I have to amend that a little bit because I think part of what makes us a little feel a little cringey about remakes is this thought that remakes are here to expose one thing you had said to expose like a new generation to an older story.

Yeah. And I just can’t think of anything sadder. , then a new generation being like, oh, I heard the Wicker Mans like this amazing classic movie. Oh, let me go find, oh, here we go. Well, it’s a remake. It’s gonna be, you know, oh, I’ll just watch this one instead. And then you can’t go back and watch the original after you’ve watched this.

I know 

Craig: what you mean. Yeah. You can enjoy it, but you won’t want to . 

Todd: Yeah. I don’t want this to be anyone’s first exposure to the wonderful odd treasure that the original Wicker Man. Because this movie is so not a treasure in any way, shape, or form, except just kind of an encapsulation of what I love about Nicholas Cage and his weirdness.

It’s just a movie to laugh at and scratch your head at because it is just hilariously bad from start to finish. It 

Craig: is. It’s a real head scratcher though, because it shouldn’t be so bad. Like, no, we can, we can say lots of things about Nick Cage. You know, he’s definitely got his, we’ve said this before, he’s.

His own style of acting. It’s unique to him. He’s built an, a huge successful career on it. It, it, the, the guy’s talented, 

Todd: everybody gives him so much crap. And I, I don’t care. Like everybody’s got their thing. Nicholas Cage has his thing. Sean Connery has his thing, right? Like so many actors have their thing.

Why does everybody hate on Nicholas Cage so much? I don’t know. I don’t understand it. I, I think 

Craig: maybe he’s kind of an easy target, which I don’t really get because I, I do think that he’s very talented, but he’s a little bit eccentric, you know, both onscreen and off and, but he doesn’t, at least anything that I’ve seen him on, he knows how he’s perceived and yeah.

Uh, he doesn’t care. And he works in movies. , you know, with people who appreciate him and where he can showcase. Odd talent, especially lately he’s been doing a lot in horror and sci-fi and some really independent interest. Yeah. Interesting stuff. Mm-hmm. , I’ve seen a couple of those movies and yeah, it’s Nick Cage.

It, you’re gonna get what you get from Nick Cage, but they’re interesting movies, so that’s one. He’s, you know, he’s good. Um, and then you’ve got other really good people in this 

Todd: too. Like it’s chock full of good people. 

Craig: Yeah. Like Ellen Burston. What are you doing in this movie? ? I don’t understand it. Right.

And, and I, and I felt like she didn’t really understand what movie she was in. Like No, I, I thought that she thought it was very serious.

and, and don’t get me wrong, she is just stunningly beautiful, uh, in this movie. Like, she’s an older woman and, and just strikingly gorgeous. And, and she looks great and she doesn’t do anything wrong, but. Why are you in this movie? And then Francis Conroy, I love Francis Conroy. Uh, she’s done a lot with American Horror Story, but she’s been around forever.

She played Mrs. Putnam in The Crucible and she was on Six Feet Under. She, she’s been around, she’s great. And many, many other recognizable faces. On top of that, Neil Leu was really kind of an up and coming director at the time. Mm-hmm. , wanna hear a fun story? Yeah. I’ve met Neil Leu in 2001. I was studying abroad in London and I was studying theater and, and we went to plays, multiple plays every day.

Neil Le Butte was directing a play at the Al Maa Theater called The Shape of Things, um, starring Paul Rudd, Rachel Vice. Gretchen Mole and one other guy whose name I can’t think of. And I went and saw the show and it was a really cool show. It was a medium sized theater. It wasn’t tiny, but it was fairly intimate.

And the, the play was done in the round. I was sitting there with my sister and a friend who were there, uh, on the same trip as I was. We were sitting directly across from Alan Rickman. Oh wow. Which was really cool. And uh, after the show, the cast and the director did a meet and greet. So I met Paul Rudd and Rachel Vice and all of them.

Paul Rudd was kind. Um, it was obvious that he wasn’t into this whole meet and greet. I think they had to do it every night. Mm-hmm. And it was obvious that he wasn’t into it, but it seemed like the reason he wasn’t into it was because. It was his birthday and his mom and a lot of the rest of his family was there, like standing off in the wings, watching while people were like getting pictures with him and stuff.

It just, he was really, really nice and friendly, but it was pretty obvious that he would rather just be hanging out with his mom. , , Rachel Vice, not so friendly. Also clearly not into it, and, uh, wow. Um, not really afraid to show it. And Gretchen Mole was the, probably the least famous of the four people in the cast.

And I saw her off, uh, at the bar sitting by herself. So I went over and had a drink with her, which was really cool and a fun story to tell. But I also met Neil Le Butte. He was a youngish guy. I don’t know how old he would’ve been, uh, at the time. Um, but he was really nice too, a little bit smelly. Uh, I don’t know if he was nervous or what, but he was really sweaty.

Uh, I, I had the whole cast and him sign my program and he was so sweaty that he like smudged his, uh, autograph, um, , but nice guy and kind like what he was kind of known for. I don’t know if he’s done much. I think he still writes a lot, but I don’t know if he directs much. He was kind of known. For really compelling human drama and the play, I saw the Shape of Things was a really, really compelling human drama.

And so when I saw that he was the director, which I didn’t know going in, I thought, well, this is cool because he can make this, you know, he, he will do a good job of having really interesting dynamic characters and, and it’ll be kind of this human drama. And I was just so disappointed. It just, the whole thing seems really kind of pedestrian and, yeah, nothing special, like you said it, it’s just kind of a bad movie.

I think that I wouldn’t have such negative feelings about it if it weren’t a remake of a movie that’s really kind of considered a cult classic and that so many people cherish, you know, if this were just a movie on its own, I could watch it and be like, well that was stupid, but whatever. It’s just another stupid movie.

I almost. I, you know, I was thinking of you and, and how fond you are of the first one, and I almost got a little bit mad because I felt like this movie was kind of making a mockery of the first one. Yeah, I don’t get it. Why would you make a remake of a movie that you know is well loved by at least some certain niche group?

just to make fun of it. And, and what I read was that, you know, everybody does make fun of it. And they say that it’s unintentionally hilarious because of, um, cages, you know, melodramatic antics or whatnot. And years later he did a bunch of interviews where he said, Ugh, that was on purpose. Uh, yeah, he, we 

knew, 

Todd: he realized we’re making this absurdist 

Craig: black comedy.

Right. And, uh, he said, you know, it, it, it would’ve been much more clear if the producers had allowed us to do what we wanted to do. Um, apparently he wanted to wear a handlebar mustache throughout Oh God. And then he also wanted to be burned in the bear suit because he thought the ridiculous nature of that would just make the whole thing much more horrifying.

I don’t know. Maybe, maybe not. I don’t know if he started saying that after mid-summer came out, cuz that’s how, in part how mid-summer ends, but, Ah. It just made even hearing or or reading those interviews where he said, oh, we knew what we were doing. We knew that it was, you know, black comedy. That almost made me more mad.

Todd: Yeah. Like, why are you doing it then? ? Yeah. Well, it’s not build as a comedy. You look at the poster art, you look at the trailers and things like that, and it’s really hard for me to believe this because there’s so much absurdity in here that just defies description. Like it’s not clever. It just comes across as incompetent filmmaking.

Like there’s a moment where, and it’s so quick that I don’t even understand it, where there’s like a dead guy on the beach and he reaches in and shakes him for a second. Like, he thinks he’s gonna wake him up where he’s, he’s this guy could not be more dead. I laughed out loud at that scene and there was so much other stuff like this, you know, just little things slipped in, huge plot holes.

Oh. And I don’t even think the movie has an internal consistency for the themes that it’s, that it’s trying to go for. I think Neil Le Butte has also been accused of being misogynistic in some of his previous works. Mm-hmm. and even at the time this movie was coming out and they were doing interviews for this movie, people were asking him point blank, you know, you’ve been accused of misogyny in the past, how would you, you know, describe this movie?

And he says, oh, well, you know, this movie, you know, kind of flips that idea on its head. And I hope you can see through the, you know, it almost seemed like he’s trying so hard to change the original Wicker Man into this, to like a, a, a response . Because in, in the original Wicker Man, you know, it’s this, Summers aisle, this place, right?

That, that everybody there is fine and happy and kind of doing their own thing. And this inspector comes along and just kind of like starts being irritated at their lifestyle, essentially just accusing people of things and pointing fingers all to get to the bottom of this mystery of this missing girl.

And yes, the townspeople are being weird and cagey, and the things that one person is saying don’t seem to match up to what another person is saying. And then sometimes a person will kind of change their tune in the middle of a conversation, but, and it just draws you into the mystery more like, what is going on with these people?

But you never get the sense, you, you’ve, you’re like, okay, if something sinister is happening here, like it’s hidden right? In this movie, it’s like, , he goes out of his way to paint these peoples, not just sinister, but mean like these people, like their whole day is nothing but them scheming and conniving something because every person that Nicholas Cage encounters in his investigation at this on this island is like, Cackling or being really snide and, and saying things with clear double entendres or hidden meanings or just not answering his question.

And then he’s like the worst investigator of the world by not pursuing it any further and just like, okay, well that was weird. And just continuing to wander around on his 

Craig: bike. On his bike and a grown man in a suit on an old fashioned bike will never not be funny. Like every, every time he hopped on that bike, I just thought it was hilarious.

And my favorite was at one point he stole the bike. I mean, he had to, I, I guess he stole them all cuz they weren’t his. But like I, I feel like at one point he just straight up took some lady’s bike step away from the bike. 

Todd: just like, well he is a cop I guess. But I. 

Craig: I guess he’s a highway patrolman. Like

What? Like all of a sudden you’re a detective. No, sir. These are not the same things. , 

Todd: right? . Well, that explains why he’s a shitty detective, let’s put it that 

Craig: way. He keeps like, he keeps brandishing like, I’m the law. No, you’re not. Like you, you are a highway patrolman on leave. Like you have no authority here.

Go 

Todd: home. Yeah. And he’s also not even kind of like in the first movie now, we don’t really see the beginnings of the guy being sent the letter. We just see him as he lands. But you get, you know, he’s in his, his official outfit, he’s in a police investigator, he’s, I’m there on the authority of the crown and all this stuff.

You know, it’s like you get the idea. He’s officially been sent there to deal with the situation because he’s gotten this random letter and so he’s been assigned to take care of it. Whereas in this movie, Nicholas Cage personally gets delivered this odd letter. From what turns out to be like his fiance as ex-fiance, it’s saying that her daughter is missing.

It just instantly personalizes it. Uhhuh, . And so immediately the tone of the movie is so different from the first one. And then as the movie goes on, you realize that. This daughter is his, it’s so clunky, which is so 

Craig: obvious. It is clunky, but it’s also obvious like that that’s never even a point of discussion.

Like clearly he must have some general idea of how long ago it was when they broke up and Right. . So he never puts two and two together, that this little girl is the exact age that she would be. Uh, it’s, you’re right, it is, it’s clunky and stupid. And in the first one, the, uh, conflict I guess between the islanders and the detective is that he’s a puritan.

Like he is. Yeah. Like Uber, Uber religious, no sex before marriage, no drinking, nothing. And they are pagans and very, you know, free spirited, free love, you know, all this kind of stuff. One with nature. Yeah. Yeah. In this one. It’s that he is a man and they are all women. ? Yes, . 

Todd: Oh my God. It’s so stupid. And it’s played stupid too.

All the women are just snide and nasty and there are men there, but they’re, I guess we’re supposed to believe that their tongues have been cut out. 

Craig: I think so. It’s never, none of them stated directly. Well, one of ’em kind of like mumbles at some point, which may, it sounded like his tongue had been cut out.

But yeah, they don’t respond to questions or anything there hardly ever. There are hardly any men in the movie. And when you see them, they are just in the background. I don’t, I mean, at least once you’re on the island, I don’t think any of the men speak ever. Yeah. Uh, and, and you just see them. I was gonna say they’re mules.

Um, but they’re not, they’re worker bees because this is a beehive. The island is a beehive and there’s a queen. Oh my god. And the men are the worker bees, . 

Todd: But it’s so stupid because she continually refers to the girls as their, as her hive. I, I’m think this isn’t even internally consistent because there’s only one queen in a hive.

Uhhuh. . If you’re trying to make, you know, this male female thing. Okay, I get it. All the men in a, all the bees are men except for one. And they’re the drones and they just serve the queen bee. Well, that’s the hive though. Don’t call all your female followers and compatriots part of the hive. They’re not, it, it’s just a very imperfect metaphor.

I think it’s kind of ham-fisted in there for what they’re trying to accomplish. And, and this just begs the question, I think when you’re doing remakes, like you gotta decide what are you gonna change and why? You should have a reason for changing certain things. And I’m not against changing stuff. Get a different angle on them story, get a different take, explore different themes, modernize it, whatever.

Yeah. But I’m just scratching my head why they chose such a weird and difficult thing as to change the original story, which was that this, this island has a, it’s basically apples, they’re really, really known for apples. They’re like branded and it’s like these beautiful harvest that they get every year.

And that’s how the islanders who are otherwise isolated, you know, make all their money. And so it’s very, very important that their yearly harvest of apples comes through. Why would you change that into beekeeping? Hmm. Because I mean, bee, I, I might be, I, I maybe I don’t know enough about beekeeping, but is beekeeping a cyclical thing?

Like do you have a harvest of honey that comes at once a year and then the rest of the year the bees are making it? I don’t think so. Right. Aren’t they just always making 

Craig: honey? Yeah. I don’t really know. I have beekeeper friends, but they could tell me, but I, I don’t know. But I, the reasoning behind it is because bees are a matriarchal society.

But you’re right, it doesn’t, as I understand it, there’s only one female bee, like Yeah. Which is what you were just saying. There’s only one and the rest are men. So the metaphor doesn’t really fully extend, but I think that’s what they were going for. They’re like, well, for sure bees. It’s bees. They’re matriarchal.

Okay, that, we’ll, we’ll go for that . 

Todd: Now let’s make the bee 

Craig: thigs and now let’s just shovel this in. Women feminism. Go

Todd: You know, in the first movie, there’s that moment where, and it’s more subtle. I mean, nothing’s really subtle, but it’s played better, more naturally. I think in the first movie where the detective comes in and he goes to the bar and he’s asking questions and he notices on the wall all these photographs of the harvest, and there’s one person in town who is the photographer and they take pictures of the harvest every year.

By the way, this made a lot more sense. You know, in 1974 or whatever than it does in 2006. But, so there’s one person in town who knows how to take pictures, , and he takes a picture of the harvest every year, and it’s put up on the wall in the tavern, but there’s, the latest one is missing. And that’s kind of central to the mystery.

Why is the latest one missing? And in all these photos, you know, it’s girls displayed with, you know, the harvest Uhhuh, like with abundance of, of stuff around them. And in this one it’s just photos of girls standing in, like rings of flowers. Like every one of them is identical. Yeah. And when he does find the missing photo, I was intensely curious, like, how’s he gonna notice, you know, what’s the clue he’s gonna get from this photo?

Because in the previous movie you could see the woman, the girl’s staying there and there are hardly any apples around her. And so he is like, oh, this is the year that the harvest was bad. By, just by looking at the photo. In this one he like, Seize the photo, flips it, I guess, to a note written on the back that just says the, the worst harvest on record or something like that.

Yeah, yeah. Like, oh God. It’s just, again, like, it’s just so clunky. Like, why Yeah. Why do you change things and make it harder for yourself to make a good movie? 

Craig: It feels like an afterthought. Oh, now, now that you say that. Uh, I, I really hadn’t read that Neil Leu had been accused of misogyny, but now that you said it, it’s in my head.

And you’re right. All the women are kind of, well, , they’re men haters. I mean, that they just are, I, I I’m not It’s, it’s blatant on its face. It’s not like I’ve, oh, yeah. It’s not like I’m interpreting it in that way. Like they seem to literally hate men, and that’s, that’s not a good look from a. Uh, director, no, because they’re, they’re all kind of screwy and bitchy, and then you pit Nick Cage against them and he automatically becomes misogynistic and sexist and the way that he.

Communicates with these women is now, to be fair, he’s not greeted. He’s not welcomed, but he’s hostile with them too. Yeah, there’s, there’s one scene in particular where he walks into this woman’s schoolhouse and , she’s stern with him, but he is straight up rude, like, yeah, just really aggressive with her.

And then like he addresses her students and goes back and she’s got some big like verse of poetry or something written on the board and he picks up his eraser and erases it. And as a school teacher watching this, I’m sitting here thinking, how dare you? Like ? Yeah. 

Todd: He erased this without asking, 

Craig: how dare you erase my board address my student?

Barge into my classroom unannounced. You’re a complete stranger. And, and he’s just rude to her. Uh, again, she’s presented as being very combative and shrewish also, but yeah, it’s not a good look. No, I don’t, I don’t understand what the point is, like what point is he trying to make? I feel like there’s some interesting dichotomy between, you know, strict Puritanism and paganism.

What’s the dichotomy here? I don’t get it. 

Todd: Yeah, exactly. He’s just mad that they’re sort of anti-man. But it’s, it’s not the running theme of the movie either, right? It’s like this scene is especially true in the first movie, this scene. And, and that’s what makes it so different, right? Is that the people are, they’re not unwelcoming.

to the inspector in the first movie. They’re not assholes to him. Not hostile, right? No. They’re just cagey. Yeah, but, but part of why they’re cagey. Well, we know why they’re being cage. I mean, they’re also deliberately being cagey, but they’re also, the things that they’re saying kind of make sense within their belief system.

Like he says she’s dead and they’re like, no, she’s not dead. And he’s like, what are you talking about? Where is she? Well, she’s in the ground, you mean she’s dead. Well, actually, we don’t use that term that she’s dead because this isn’t our belief that people actually die. They get reincarnated. So there’s kind of this sort of explanation behind it that kind of makes sense and the people are very patient with him.

In explaining this, particularly the school teacher, this is one of those scenes where the dialogue between the old one and the new one are almost identical. And those school teacher in this movies played by Molly Parker was so cool to see her in this. And she, she performs well in this movie. She’s always good.

I don’t know her. Oh God, she’s been in, oh, she’s one of those like p people. I recognize her face. I’m like, oh man, every time I see her, I love to, I love to watch her’s, but I can’t remember. She’s pretty exactly what I know her from the most, some TV show. Anyway, she was great doing what she needed to do, but she’s bitchy and hostile to towards him.

And this other guy in the first movie comes and interrupts this woman’s class, but she’s smiling and she’s patient and she’s nice and she calls him outside to explain to him, and it’s like, sir, maybe we need to step outside and I’ll explain it to you out there. And then they have a nice little scene.

Now he’s still appalled by everything, you know, because she’s been teaching the class about phallic symbols and, and the fertility rights and things like that. But in this one, She’s like, we need to go outside. Grabs him out there and she’s just looks like she’s on the verge of tears and wanting to punch him out just because he’s a man basically.

It’s just so shallow compared to what we get in the first movie. Even though the scenes are written exactly the same, they are played so differently that, like you said, I think the words that you used, that it makes a mockery. The first movie is very on point, . It really is. It makes me 

Craig: mad. Me, me too, kind of, and I don’t even care that much.

Todd: I, I wasn’t gonna get mad about it, but now I am kind of mad 

Craig: about it. Yeah. But the, like, the, the inspector in the first movie also doesn’t, he doesn’t understand or agree with their way of life, but he doesn’t approach them disrespectfully and like he’s. I don’t know. I mean, he can be a little bit stern when he talks.

He’s business about them. He’s respectful and, and almost he’s got a charm to 

Todd: him. Yeah, he’s very sympathetic. 

Craig: He’s very sympathetic. He’s got a charm to him, and there’s just more by adding this, the connection between him and this woman, then that removes the opportunity for his kind of flirtatious thing.

Was it the Barmaid that he kind of had a flirty thing going on with in the first one? Yeah. 

Todd: The Barmaid’s in the original, her name was Willow. And so yeah, she was the one who was kind of tempting him throughout the movie. In this 

Craig: one, uh, the Barmaid is, uh, played by a woman. Oh gosh, I’m gonna look her up.

Uh, Diane Delano or Delano, um, and I recognized her right away. She was the bus driver from Jeepers Creepers two. Um, oh, but I just thought it was funny because in the original she’s kind of almost this comical Alpine Swiss . Yes. Swiss mis kind of bomber, uh, like in Leader Hoen or something. Um, and, and she’s very sexy.

Like, wasn’t that woman like a Oh yeah. Play playmate or something. Yeah, I don’t remember. She’s, but anyway, Diane Delano is a, a, a big like hulking woman. Yeah. Very intimidating. I almost, I found that kind of humorous to kind of flip that. A little bit, and I like her. She’s, she’s a funny actor. She doesn’t have much to do here.

But yeah, I don’t know. I mean, what do you say about the plot? Like, okay, so I guess we should talk about one another big difference is they give him a tragic backstory, which I don’t really, it seems forced and stupid, and. And, and unnecessary. Like it doesn’t Yeah. Ultimately lead to anything. I thought it was gonna tie 

Todd: in somewhere.

Craig: It’s just confusing. Yeah. You know. Okay. So he’s a traffic cop. He gets behind this station wagon and a doll falls out the window and he picks it up and he pulls him over and it’s like this single mom. And she’s like, oh, we’ve been in the, we’ve been on the road for a long time. And, and the daughter’s bored.

And, um, the daughter’s kind of bratty and he gives her the doll back and she throws it out the window again and he goes into the highway without looking. Idiot Right. To pick it up. And I guess kind of the implication is that this semi-truck maybe had to swerve to avoid hitting him. And so in instead Yeah, it crashed into the station wagon and everything blew up and he tried to, Busted through the back windshield and was reaching for the girl, but then the whole thing blew up and he got blown back into the highway and they’re presumably dead.

Okay, fine. Well, so then he is messed up by that and that’s when he gets this letter and decides to go off on this investigation. Doesn’t make any sense. But then he also continues having flashbacks to it, and they are so clunky. Mm. Like they don’t even look good. Like they’re in this, they’re weird. Weird black and white.

The first one is when he is on the ferry, it is not even to the island. He eventually has to, you know, like charter a plane, it’s the island or whatever. Um, but he is on a ferry somewhere and he sees a little girl standing at the rails, a little blonde girl, just like the girl in the car. And I, and it like flashes to black and white.

And then he sees the semi hit. On the ferry, like right in front of him. Super weird. And then he continues to have these flashbacks and like the little girl is I in his flashbacks, the little girl disappears. Like she’s not there anymore. I still have no idea what all of this was about because it doesn’t re, you kept thinking it was somehow gonna be connected, but it never.

Was, 

Todd: it just seems like, and, and, and you’re right, and there are reasons why we think it’s connected. Number one, that little girl looks like every other little girl on that island, right? She looks a lot like the Rowan, the girl he is looking for. She’s wearing a red card again, I believe, in the car. and in his flashbacks, which just like the girl that he’s on the island, right?

On the island. So I, I thought there would be some literal connection there. It just seems to just a, chew up the scenery and b served to say, to maybe show us that he’s troubled by his inability to save this girl. And so this is his redemption as he’s going to work his darnedest to save this other girl, but it’s no longer needed because he now already has a reason.

Right. Yeah. 15 minutes into the movie we find out. No, this girl’s his own 

Craig: daughter, so No, it’s later. They draw it out way longer than that. Yeah, that’s true. The, the, the Lady Willow played by Kate Bien. I don’t know anything about her. She’s excited from the fact that she’s very, very beautiful. But she’s shady too.

Todd: Yes. And she doesn’t even care. 

Craig: No. And, and, and like it seems, He, he is willing to overlook how incredibly shady she’s being. And by shady I mean that she just plays dumb. Like every time that he asks her about anything, she’s like, I don’t know. It’s, it’s a picture. That’s all. No, that is not all. Why don’t you tell me Rome was a part of all this, huh?

The rituals. I don’t, I don’t know. We’ll try because I’m out there bouncing around in circles and I can use a little help. Edward, why are you yelling at me? How about this? For starters, our daughter is part of your worst harvest on record. Now, you said before that they blamed her, so why don’t you tell me about this?

It’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s a ceremony that we have. I don’t know anything else. You live here . 

Todd: It’s so annoying or doesn’t answer, or walks away or something like that. You’re, he’s like, all right, and then he hops on his bike and wanders around the island some more. I 

Craig: know, but it’s like he’s willing to overlook all of that.

Because there’s maybe some chance that they’re gonna hook up, like yeah, the, it’s a, and he, she’s the only woman that he’s nice to it. It doesn’t seem weird to him at all that they met, had this love affair, she disappeared, was gone forever, and is now contacting him and playing totally dumb. Like she had this baby on this island and has been living there for at least seven years.

And anytime he asks her about, I don’t know, , I don’t know what you live here, I don’t believe for a second that you don’t know what’s going 

Todd: on. You guys do each other to the point of engage. Right. Yeah. They weren’t engaged at one point. This is the first he’s hearing about this island that she grew up on.

That’s so freaking weird in this cult or whatever that she grew up in. 

Craig: I don’t know. Maybe she didn’t tell him. I mean, that it’s possible because, I mean, God, spoiler alert, who cares? But she’s been playing him literally the whole time, like, yeah, this, this is a long game that they are playing , which also is bullshit like it, right?

The, the whole motivation of this is so stupid. Um, I guess. I don’t know. Eventually he meets up like he does lots of investigating. He investigates the school. It’s all really stupid. Everybody’s really shady. He meets up with some men on the road. I thought it was hilarious. This scene where he meets up with these, he helps the guy.

Yeah. Where he helps the guy. Okay. So there’s this, uh, like horse-drawn cart of all of these cut logs that like these men have been harvesting or whatever, and he sees that this guy’s having problems with them. Like a, a few of them have fallen off. So he is like, can I help you? And the guy doesn’t say anything cuz presumably his tongue has been cut out.

But then Nick Cage starts helping him and in the act of helping him causes. All of the logs to fall off . And then he gets all pissed off and leaves like, oh, thanks for your help, sir. , 

Todd: you came and made it worse. That got pissed 

Craig: off at enough . Very helpful. And, and like, there’s so many dumb things like the, the, the, the parts that are supposed to be suspenseful At one part, he’s like looking around in a barn.

I don’t even remember what he was looking for. He chased a girl in there. Okay. Or did he like ? Right. Is is he imagining things? Who knows, but he chases a girl in there or something and then. Uh, there’s a very suspenseful moment when he like falls through a, a hole in the floor, just apropo of nothing. Like that’s not, that’s, that’s not suspense.

It’s just a thing. And then it wasn’t out. It wasn’t a trap, you know? Yeah. You go snooping around in old barns, you might fall through the floor. These things happen. It’s not a plot point in a movie . Right. Oh my God. And there are other ones like that too. I don’t e what I 

Todd: love is the bees. Are we gonna talk about the bees though?

Yes. 

Craig: Well, yeah, that was the other thing I was gonna say, like another part where the music tells us that this is a very suspenseful part is when he just finds himself amongst all these beehives. 

Todd: Yes. Like, well pay attention to where you’re going. He’s stupid. He’s so dumb. He’s allergic to bees, which is a point, which is pressed home to us several times.

Yeah. He’s on his bike and he’s looking at something far off in the distance and he just rolls his bike forward a little bit to bump a beehive. Flips out and instead of going back the way he came from runs further into the field with all the beehives and amongst all the bees. 

Craig: like screaming and flailing about 

Todd: falling down.

Then he wakes up and the doctor has picked him up and taken him to Sister Summers aisle. So in the previous one it was Lord Summers ile. Now it’s Sister Summers aisle’s place where he’s gonna go meet Sister Summers aisle. He gets up, 

Craig: wait this, I also like this. So yeah, he is like attacked by the beast.

So he wakes up, he’s fine, but his clothes are off. Like he still has his under clothes on. But the doctor’s sitting there, Francis Conroy’s sitting there and he’s like, when they brought me to you, you were near death clearly. So I treated the danger in the old way. What, like , 

Todd: what are those? He doesn’t even wanna know.

What are 

the 

Craig: old ways he doesn’t even ask. I’m just thinking like, I don’t wanna wake up. With my clothes off and be told that I’ve been healed in the old ways. Like . I don’t know. I, I mean, I’m thinking of like, I, I remember I had to personal story time. I had to at one point, uh, get a colonoscopy and I told Alan because af like afterwards, he’s like, how was it?

And I was like, it was fine. They knocked me out and I woke up. It was like nothing happened. They could have done anything to me. I have no idea. . That’s what I was thinking with him. Like, ah, man. The old ways, 

Todd: I love it because, you know, he wakes up in her house and that’s happened and then he goes outside to talk to Sister Summers aisle in the garden surrounded by, be.

Yeah. And then they chat and the whole time they’re chatting, there’s bees buzzing around and he’s occasionally slapping his neck and stuff. Then they go on a walk amidst the beehives. Uh, I’m like, Uhhuh, what? Why are you, I thought this was a big problem for you. Right. And it’s hilarious. And now we just walk around amongst the 

Craig: bees.

Millie, this part is so funny because at this point, like when they’re walking amongst the bees, he’s like pulling up his collar and like, hiding it or like hiding his face in it. It just looks so stupid. It’s really dumb. It’s, it’s hilarious, but it’s stupid. I do have to say, I mean, Ellen Burston took this part and ran with it.

She’s very regal. Uh, I just can’t get over, I have no idea how old she is now or how old she was then, but just stunningly, stunningly beautiful. And, you know, seeing her out in amongst all these flowers and all this vegetation, she’s in this long flowing gown. She just looks fantastic. And she’s regal. She has a regal, um, presence and she kind of just doesn’t.

Put up with his nonsense or she remains very calm with him. Her performance in this role is not unlike Christopher Lee’s performance in the first one. 

Todd: Well, I think it’s a pale imitation of fair of Christopher Lee’s, Christopher Lee’s conversation with the man in the previous movie is, again, almost word for word, exactly the same, but it just feels better.

It’s more natural. It’s whatever. This, this feels like a, a woman saying lines. And you know, she’s also like, the thing about Christopher Lee in the original, he’s, he’s so loose and calm about it. . Yeah. And because he’s just explaining like he has nothing to hide. This is what we do on the island. And he’s almost a picture of patience when this guy who’s this uptight Christian, you know, with his rigid belief system, who that is so offended by their ways on the island, you know, he’s gotta have extra patience.

And he just, he does that so naturally this woman you just feel is on the edge of, you know, she’s just holding it in. 

Craig: See, and I, I felt like she treated him and talked to him like, she doesn’t have time for this nonsense. Like, yeah. It almost as though anytime he spoke, she would have preferred to have been rolling her eyes.

Like, Ugh. Exactly. Shut up. That’s a stupid man. . And she says something about like men having their place and Yeah. Summers Island explains the whole history of the island and talking about how like they make sacrifices to the great mother spirit and she’s telling this. Like her ancestors did all of this.

Yeah. And I’m thinking it, it also, I think, hurts the story to transplant this to the United States. Oh yeah. Because that kind of deep heritage, unless you transfer it from the old world, we don’t have that kind of history. Really. No. Like we don’t, we’re not old enough to have that kind of history. Now I do think that the implication was, this was like old world European tradition that did get transplanted over here and changed in some way because they made this sacrifice for the harvest and it used to be a blood sacrifice.

But now, In the new world, they burn people. Right? Isn’t that what they said? That’s 

Todd: how it is in the old movie. Yeah. That’s kind of, well, in the old movie, there are different ways that they take care of the sacrifice, but the most effective or is the burning apparently Something like that. Gotcha. 

Craig: Anyway, so, uh, and she tells them that men are important for breeding.

She says that procreation is the desire of the goddess, and he gives her this. He like proselytizes about murder. He’s like, murder is murder. The law is the law and you have to follow the law. She’s like, okay, , whatever. And then he hops on his bicycle and gets outta there 

Todd: and leaves

Well, he does get permission to exhume the grave and then he finds a doll inside. And at that moment he hears some crying coming from the crypt. Yeah. Uh, nearby. And so he decides to go down into the K cryp and investigate where that’s coming from. And he finds a cardigan willow with, um, Rowan’s initials on it or whatever.

And so he decides to go swimming through the crypt. Yeah. And as he comes back around it, somebody closes the crypt door, like it’s the door. It’s like a, it’s like a trap door on the floor, basically. Ah-huh. . Yeah. That gets closed on him and locks him in there and he has his flashback or whatever, and then Willow just happens to be coming by, I guess, I guess whatever it was.

Probably her that locked him in there and comes down and saves him. Well, here’s why. Why is somebody trying to kill him now? Why 

Craig: is anybody doing any of this? It doesn’t make any sense. It makes absolutely no sense. They are leading him on this wild goose chase for no reason. She, and, and then my favorite part among many, she lets him out and he’s like, go back to your house or whatever, and he says, something bad’s about to happen.

I could feel it. I could feel it.

No, that’s, oh my God. So funny. 

Todd: But, but this is after he very impa Impassionately shows her the doll, hers. 

Craig: Tell me. I Yes. I I think it, yeah. How’d it get burned? How’d it get burned? I, how’d it get burned? How’d it get burned? , why don’t, and she’s like, I don’t know. Calm down . And, and, and who cares? Like, I, I don’t know.

Is that supposed to be some connection to the fire in his dream? Like, or, or the accident in the beginning. Oh, like, I’m, I’m really questioning was that woman and that little girl in that car, like, did these people set that 

Todd: up? I know, right? This is what I thought. There’d be some connection, but because I almost feel like 

Craig: that’s maybe suggesting that they did, but it doesn’t, I don’t know.

It doesn’t make any sense. But something bad is about to happen. He can feel it. So he goes back to summers, idol’s house, and he finds a gross old man. In a bed and I was the man bee stung. Is that why he looked so gross? 

Todd: I don’t know. 

Craig: I think he, I think he, I think he was supposed to be bee stung. I just love how he 

Todd: starts opening doors, opens the door, finds the weird guy in the bed, looks in.

Oh, okay. And just keeps going. . 

Craig: Yeah. And then in the next room there is a naked young woman in a chair just completely covered in bees. But then he stops looking because he doesn’t find somes aisle. Lounging. Luxuriously in her bed upstairs attended by young women, . And then we get to, he couldn’t 

Todd: be bothered to go up the stairs, I guess.

Craig: No, he had seen enough, something bad is going to happen. He has places to be. And so he goes out and he runs into that Sister Rose again, the school teacher. And she’s wearing a bird mask. And I’m like, thank God, because I knew this was the end . I had been looking at the time. So like I kept, oh yeah. Okay.

Thank God. 30 minutes left. Oh my God. Thank God. Only 20 minutes left. and then we get to this part and I’m like, Ugh, we’re getting to the end. Thank God. So she’s in a bird mask and she’s ready to celebrate life and. Whatever that means. And he pulls a gun on her and steals her bike. Yes. Away from the bike.

Step away from the bike, . And then he runs into these creepy old twins. There are tons of twins. What is with the twins don’t understand 

Todd: the twin thing. I don’t either, 

Craig: but there are lots of them. Like Sister Rose has a twin 

Todd: and there’s some, these creepy twins, sisters speak at the same time, but they only have like two lines in the whole movie.

And we 

Craig: only see these twins. They run into him and it is, he . And he keeps running. And he like, he goes to the pub and the men are in there, but they won’t help. And that’s when he says, and I remember this from the first one when he breaks into some lady’s house and he’s like, I am gonna search every inch of this town over the next three hours.

He proceeds to do that. And that’s when he finds the, uh, pilot. It’s the pilot who he finds dead on the beach. Yes. Yes. They killed him. That because he, why did they kill him? Because he 

Todd: brought him there. . But they wanted, they wanted him there. That’s true. So why would they kill him? I don’t know. It 

Craig: doesn’t make any sense.

Um, so then he keeps running around. He punches out. Sister Beach and summer aisle now is leading this ceremony and she’s all painted ceremonially and he’s got her hair down and everybody’s in costume and these animal costumes, it’s a 

Todd: pale imitation of the first movie. It is. We’re all, we’re all of this is so nicely set up because he goes to the library and he reads this book about the ancient traditions of this, and it lays out like three or four things.

The fool, the leader who dances in front and the um, , the swordsman with the star who like cut the head off of someone and mm-hmm. . So even that bit is full of tension and of course a whole bunch of irony because he ends up in the full costume. Right, right. At the end of it, you know, he’s like the fool.

Like, literally. It’s quite cool. You’re 

Craig: right. I had, I had forgotten about that. I, I will say that from an aesthetic perspective, I really liked these costumes. I, I think that, uh, the costumes in the original were probably more real to life. Like, these look like movie, you know, they’re, they’re very intricate.

But anyway, so it’s all this big ceremony and it much of this is just like the original. He sees the girl Rowan tied to a post as though she’s going to be burned. 

Todd: He, he’s in a bear costume. . Yeah. 

Craig: Full bear costume. Which I mean, good in that, yeah. That would fully disguise you. But again, just as a grown man in a suit on a bicycle looks kind of ridiculous.

A grown man running around in a full body para suit, it, it just looks silly. 

Todd: He comes running out of the woods and just joins the line. You know, like with 

Craig: no explanation of where he got it, what 

Todd: know this or whatever, like he’s supposed to be disguised, but you know, and he kind of like lowers the jaw to talk to Willow real quick because he still thinks she’s on his side.

And so he’s sneaking into this line and then he just leaves the jaw down so you can clearly see his face, which I guess is painted black or brown or so. But when he takes the costume off later, there’s no makeup on his face at all. Oh 

Craig: yeah. The other thing, when he meets Willow, he’s like, I thought I told you.

I thought I told you to go back to the house. She looks at him going, I had to come

Todd: And then he sees, oh God, he sees Rowan, you know, tied to the tree like you said, and he runs up there by himself, the bear costume, and punches out. another lady with this huge ride hook, this bear. Just punches this woman in the face, 

Craig: hilarious. And he grabs can imagine. No, you can’t imagine. It’s it sound. It is just how it sounds.

And it’s, yeah, pretty darn funny. And he grabs her and he picks her up and he starts running through the woods as he did in the first one. And then he puts her down so that he can take off his bear costume and they can run together. But she runs ahead and he can’t catch her. And she gets ahead and you see that she runs right into the arms of mother Summers aisle or whatever.

And Willow is standing right there next to Mother Summers aisle. And turns out, you know, she is summer aisle’s daughter. And this was all set up from the beginning. God, she has so many lines here that are, it’s just ridiculous. Something like, The game of the hunter hunting the hunted. What? Mm-hmm. and and willow’s in on it.

And she’s, uh, some recital says It’s your destiny. We require a stranger, but one who is connected to us by blood, , . So like I said, this was a long game. Apparently they sent Willow out into the world to get knocked up so that she could come back and I guess seven years later or whatever, then they would lure him back.

But the thing is he has to come of his own free will. So she says, she says, you have come of your own free will to keep this appointment with the wicker man. That’s fine. But why this whole catton mouse thing on the island? Like he came to the island of his own free will. Why didn’t you just have him show up the next day , which is the day when you need to kill him.

As soon as he gets off the plane, be like, welcome. Now you die. Like, I don’t understand what this whole charade. Is, it doesn’t make any sense what is the point. 

Todd: That’s why this whole, all of these words in the mouths of these characters in this situation are just, they fall flat. You know, they might be pulled from the old movie, but they just don’t have the same effect.

They don’t even make the same sense because in the old movie, this is like a revelatory moment and you’re just like, oh my God. Like he really did come here of his free will. He stayed of his own free will. They were almost actively, well, they were actively encouraging him to leave. Right. And all the, the stuff that happens to him on the island, there’s testing involved.

Right. Cuz they needed a virgin. And so, you know, he’s being tempted by Willow, but he doesn’t succumb to that. And so, you know, all of this is sort of like to affirm that they have the right person, right, right. That fits all of the requirements that they need here. It’s just the guy that they lured. , and I guess he came of his own free will because he, you know, wasn’t dragged kicking and streaming to the island in the first place.

You know, that’s it. Right? So it’s just lame. 

Craig: Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. And so he points his gun at summers aisle and pulls the trigger, but it’s empty. And Willow shows that she has the bullets and she drops 

Todd: them all. Right. I guess she’s had those in her hand the whole time, , just to 

Craig: show ’em . And at this point now we saw the theatrical release.

Yeah. Um, and at this point, It kind of just cuts to the crowd. Or maybe it cuts to black or something and you only, you only hear what’s happening. He, he calls them bitches. You bitch this, you’re enjoyed it for nothing. Killing me. Won’t bring back your goddamn honey. Oh, no, no.

I’m not one you, I don’t believe it. Ah, my legs. My legs. I’m just hearing this like, it sounds like it was recorded. Adr, they just played it over. I mean, obviously not stock footage, but that’s what it looks like. Like i, I, I guess maybe they cut this for the rating or something cuz it’s different in the unrated version it’s laugh out loud funny.

Yeah, it’s really, really bad. And then you see him, they’ve revealed the wicker man to him, which is huge. And they pulley him up there by the ankles. The daughter Rowan lights the fire and everybody in the crowd starts chanting the drone must die. And I didn’t even know what that meant. I had to look it up.

But drone bees, the, their only function is to mate. They don’t even have a stinger. Um, they, they just mate. And then when they do mate, their penis tears off and, uh, take just like, you know, bees with stingers, like their insides are connected to the stinger and they sting and their insides get ripped out.

Same thing happen with the drones. Dick like it, it gets it. Falls off and tears all their insides out. So after, uh, mating they die. So apparently the drone must die. And he screams as he burns, and Dr. Moss takes a picture of the burning and the wicker man collapses. And I remember the ending of the original was so great.

Like it was just the best, like one of the best shots I’ve ever seen where the camera just kind of pans up and back on the Wicker Man as you see it burning and you just kind, and then it fades in on the setting. Sun in the background. Mm-hmm. . Oh, it just looked so great. Well, here it just collapses. And then in the version that we saw, which is the theatrical version, I think that the Unrated version was released like on DVD and Blu-ray, but we’ll talk about that in a second.

In this version, cuts to Black six months later and. Honey, who we’ve not mentioned played by Lili Sobieski. That was a blast from the past. Haven’t seen her in a while. Hmm. Yeah. Honey and Willow pick up James Franco and Jason Ritter in a bar. and Honey says to James Fraker Franco, when you leave here, where you going?

He’s like, I don’t know, I guess home. And she’s like, when you go, will you take me with you? And then you hear bees buzzing and you hear malice. The nick cages, ah,

in the background. And then that’s the end. Oh. Oh. And I thought that was kind of funny, but did you watch the uh, the other ending, 

Todd: the cut? Oh, you mean the Beat The Beast one? Yeah, the one , the one that has memes all over about it. 

Craig: Yes. Well, that was the thing, like I, I finished the movie. I was like, wait, where is that scene?

Did I miss it? No, it’s, it’s the unrated ending. 

Todd: Nicholas Cage just basically gets a cage put over the top of his head, and then they’d pour bees down in it. , he just goes crazy. 

Craig: What? What is that? What is that? What is it, Lord? Not the bees, Lord, the bees. My eyes, eyes, eyes, and then he dies. But then they bring him back to life with an EpiPen so they can burn him alive.

That was nice. That was considerate. Oh, 

Todd: why, you understand why they even burn him? Why? 

Craig: Or, or why the bees like just to torture him? Is it a ceremonial thing? They know he hates bees. 

Todd: At least it kind of makes sense. Like I guess if they’re gonna do the bee thing and he’s allergic to bees and whatnot, if you kill him with the bees, that kind of makes like, can’t, they can’t that be your sacrifice, you know?

Right, right. Then 

Craig: why do you have to burn ’em? I don’t know. I, and I don’t know which ending I like better. I actually kind of liked the concept of them sending out these young women and, and sexing ’em up and having them lure men, you know, to mate or whatever. I kind of liked that idea. It, it seemed, I don’t know it, the whole thing, stupid.

So to say that it seems silly is redundant. The whole thing is 

Todd: dumb. You know, we’ve seen that kind of thing before and like, you know, It’s vampire movies. Sure. All kinds of stuff. Hostile type thing. Logically speaking. I guess they’re just prepping guys in case they have a bad harvest. Like they don’t know they’re gonna have a bad harvest.

Craig: I don’t know. I, I think they need these girls, they need these little blonde girls for their harvest. So I think they’re just sending girls out into the world to get knocked up and come back, and then seven years later they can lure these men well for a 

Todd: sacrifice. They should be, should be hooking up with blonde guys.

Really? Yeah. Right. They want to keep ’em blonde. 

Craig: I couldn’t believe like this very last scene, which is two or three minutes, I’m like, is that James Franco? Is that Jason Ritter? Like this. I know, right. . 

Todd: That was a nice little treat. It’s weird. 

Craig: Anyway, yeah, like I honestly was kind of looking forward to seeing this just because it is notorious.

I, I mean it, it spawned so many memes and it’s just kind of a joke really. And Nick Cage gets pissed off about it when people talk about it like that because he’s really proud of it and proud of his performance in it. It just seems like somewhere along the line. People weren’t on the same page. Like if he, if he thought that he was going over the top and, and going for kind of dark comedy, it doesn’t read that way.

No. The rest of it doesn’t read that way. The tone is just all over the place. Like, I, I just don’t know what to make of it. And even the filmmaking I think is just okay. I think that a lot of it was saved by the fact that it was filmed in really beautiful locations that were interesting to look at, but there was nothing particularly innovative or skillful about the way that it was shot.

The score, I don’t remember anything about it. Like usually we can point to some things and say, well, they tried, this was good, this was good. This just seems like a misfire on pretty much every level. And I don’t get it. And I get why it’s been the subject of ridicule, but really it wasn’t. Fun to watch. No, un I wanted it to be fun.

I wanted it to be so bad. It’s good. I wanted to laugh with it and add it, but it just wasn’t, it just wasn’t 

Todd: fun. I was bored. Yeah. I think I did myself a disservice by, by watching the original again before I watched this. Ah, yeah. Probably that would, that made this even more painful. I mean, it helped because like I said, I could, I could recognize that so much of the dialogue was the same, but it just emphasized how much worse it was and it just exposed all those plot holes.

It made you wonder why, and it’s just like, my God don’t take something so great and makes something. So, like you said, it’s like a mockery of it that’s, it’s so bad that it’s sort of a mocking it and that kind of pisses me off. So I guess we found like a spot where I just don’t care for remakes in this way if they’re gonna do this.

I hate for somebody’s first experience with the Wickerman to be this movie, cuz I don’t think I could ever convince ’em to go whack and watch the original. And then I think if they did go back and watch the original, because kind of like more or less the endings have been spoiled for them. It just taints their viewing of it, you know, and it’s not gonna be as impactful.

Yeah, I think you’re right. 

Craig: It’s really a shame. I mean, I guess the good news is this movie is notorious it, it has a reputation so people know. I, I think, yeah, going into it, I mean, maybe, I guess your casual viewer who’s like, Hmm, I like Nick Cage. Let’s look for a Nick Cage movie. I haven’t seen, maybe they wouldn’t know about the notoriety, but I think anybody who likes horror, who’s familiar with horror, they, they know about the notoriety of this movie and that people consider it ridiculous, so, right.

Hopefully they would go in with that perspective, or they would just say, I’ll check out the original, hopefully, but , 

Todd: I really hope so. Well, thanks again for another episode. It’s been a really wonderful month, uh, doing remakes. Wanna really thank our patrons for, uh, the idea. It’s fun and I hope that we, uh, did you good.

If you would like to become a patron of the show, go to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast, find us on the web. Just Google, two guys in a chainsaw, uh, podcast, and you’ll find our website. Check out our Instagram page if, if you’re on Instagram, we’re trying to beef that up, put clips up and things, make things a little more shareable to try to reach out to another audience.

Uh, please do that. One of the pa one of the things that our patrons have allowed us to do is get a little bit better about promoting ourselves out there on social media, so you’ll see a lot more little goodies here and there as well. It’ll be shareable with your friends. Please, please, if you enjoyed this podcast, share us with some friends and write a review if you’re so inclined on any one of your favorite podcast hosting sites.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Special thanks goes out to Loyal Patrons Neil and Jordan for requesting this week’s 2003 remake of the 1971 film “Willard”, which we probably would never have gotten to otherwise. We took this opportunity to discuss both films, and came out enjoying them way more than we expected. Crispin Glover is his typical quirky self as a mousey guy who loves rats. And then there’s that fantastic tune by Michael Jackson that is tangentially related to the original film. Listen up and hear all about it!

Also enjoy the totally wacked out “Ben” cover below!

Willard

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, we are knee deep in our month of remakes. As you remember, we posed to our patrons with the month what they like, and they settled on a month of remakes. And amidst that discussion on there, we got some requests. Patrons Neil and Jordan both really wanted us to do Willard. 

Craig: Uhhuh. Which is not one. When we thought about doing this, I came up with a whole long list and you did too. Like we both had a list of ones that we might do. Mm-hmm. and I was worried about trimming them down cuz there were so many that we wanted to do.

And then two people were like, do Willard . Okay. I, I mean, that’s not one that I would’ve thought of at all, but that’s the beauty of Patreon because, I’m so glad that, uh, we did this one. I’m really excited to talk about it. Yeah, me 

Todd: too. In fact, I probably would have just said, let’s do the original Uhhuh at some point in our podcast because it, it’s, it pops into my head every now and then, and I had never seen it, the original or the newest one, um, until now.

And so here we are. Uh, Willard was originally released in 1971, and it was a movie based on a book called Rat Man’s Diaries, Uhhuh , which is appropriate, that used, that was going to be the name. But then they settled on Willard, which I, in my youth always thought was the name of the. Rat , it turns out it’s the name of the guy.

And so what we have here, especially with the original, is sort of a character study in a way. Like Martin I think was a character study and you know, some of the movies we’ve watched seem to be more about an unhinged person and the fascination of, you know, kind of getting into their brain and seeing what makes them tick and kind of what turns them evil or what makes them do bad things.

So, uh, this movie, when it came out, was a surprise hit. It ended up with as the 12th highest grossing release of the year. It was a fairly low-budget movie. It had Ernest Borgnine, I think was the biggest star Uhhuh in that film, which I always loved seeing . He was good. Did you watch the original? I did Didn.

Yeah, 

Craig: I did. I just didn’t know if you, uh, had gotten around to it or not. No. Yeah, I watched the original cause I had never seen it either. And I also watched Ben like . Oh, you 

Todd: watched Ben Uhhuh that I didn’t do. You were way more thorough than me, . Well, it’s because 

Craig: watching the, like 10 minutes into the original, I was like, I love this

Todd: Right. I did too. I 

Craig: really was into it. Like I was 

Todd: too, it, it was, 

Craig: I don’t, I don’t even know how to describe it. It was very seventies. Like it had the total seventies aesthetic and the music, but it was also really bright. Yeah. Whereas this remake that we’re gonna be talking about in a second is all dark.

Everything’s dark in, in the original one. It’s bright and cheery through most of the movie. It really doesn’t feel like a horror movie. At all. No. Ultimately, like you were talking about character studies in the original Willard pretty much just seems like kind of a normal guy. . 

Todd: He does, you know, he’s very sympathetic, I think.

Mm-hmm. in the original and I mean, and, and what I really liked about the original is I, it felt real to me, you know? Yeah. Almost everything about now there was a little bit of like over the topness with like the mother and her friends. Sure. However, I don’t mind that because it, it was pressing point, the, the point home that this guy has really just been this stunted guy, right.

You go to like I m DB and Wikipedia and they talk about this movie and Bruce Davison stars, his social misfit Willard styles, uh, I wouldn’t call him a social misfit. No. He just seems like a lonely guy who’s never gotten out of the shadow of his mother and his father. And doesn’t really particularly have any great ambitions.

He just kind of wants to do his thing and he’s not even happy about the thing he’s doing. But how many of us are like that? You know, , right? Just like, like he was totally relatable. Yeah. And then he had all this extra sympathy because he had this ailing mother, or at least this mother who pretended she was ailing.

I, I, I’m not even sure, really. You know, she kind of gave me the whole, that next door neighbor in Pollyanna kind of feeling. Remember the woman who’s always complaining about how she’s sick? Yeah. . Yeah. 

Craig: I, I learned something. Did you know that that actress, I we’re gonna have to be careful not to do a whole episode on the original.

The original, right. Cause I would like to, but, uh, the mom that was the bride of Frankenstein, did you know? Oh God no. Yes. I didn’t know that. Yeah. And uh, what I learned was not only did that actress play the iconic bride of Frankenstein, but the same actress was also Katie Nana in Mary Poppins. , like the grouchy Nanny.

Todd: Yes. Oh my gosh. crazy. I never, never Wow. . Well, okay, so there was more than one famous actor in that movie. Well, you know, she, okay, so she played that character, which can come across as a bit stereotypical and archetypal. But then, you know, she has these friends who just come in and you can tell they’re like leeches.

It seems like all of her friends as boisterous and whatever they are, are all kind of angling for the, for. Peace of the fortune, even though the movie never really comes right out and says it. That’s just a vibe I got. Yeah, 

Craig: I mean, they were campy. Fortunately they weren’t in it very much. No. The thing that, uh, I liked about the original was like he was just kind of lonely and bored, and that’s how the rats happened.

And that felt real too. Like his mom’s like, oh, there are rats in the garden. Get rid of ’em. And he kind of tries to, like, there’s a really intense scene where he traps them and is gonna drown ’em. And it’s so tense because, uh, like you see the water raising in these poor little baby rats are like squealing in things and Yeah, just, just like we, the audience are uncomfortable, so is he.

And he rescues them at the last minute and then they’re his friends and they’re just his friends throughout the rest of the movie. And that’s what I liked about the original and this new one in my mind. I think when I saw this, um, on the shelves. When I was a kid, I thought that it was like an evil rats movie.

Like, like, yeah, me too. The rats were bad and they were, you know, attacking and killing people. That’s really not the case. They’re just rats. I, in both movies. Yeah. They’re just rats. And especially in, in the first movie, he eventually just realizes that he’s overwhelmed with rats. , like, oh shit. Too many rats.

Yeah,

And, and that’s kind of, it’s kind of the same in the second one too, when they just, you know, it starts out as kind of a fun hobby. , right. But as rats will do, they multiply super quickly and it happens in the second one too. Now, in both, also they do train the rat. To do stuff. Yes. But even that doesn’t really seem all that unrealistic.

It’s a little bit more heightened I think in the second one. Yes. And some of that may have to do with the use of cgi and so, you know, they’re using enormous hoards of rats. I, I actually thought the original was really impressive for using almost exclusively live rats and it looked great. 

Todd: Yeah. To me there was a bit of a, of a question.

It did make me wonder if there was something written in the script or obviously in the book that just kind of got left out a movie for time reasons. It just seems like suddenly Willard can order the rats around. Yeah. There’s a gap here. We don’t really know how he trained these rats. We just know now he’s able to tell.

Tear it up or, you know, go or whatever. And, and they’ll do that in the second movie. There’s a whole sequence then that fills in that gap for us, where he’s like, almost maniacally, like, like now feed, go tear it up. He’s like, lined up tires and sh told the, you know, shown them how to do it and all that. And so, uh, there’s a montage sequence there, which is I think helpful, but didn’t feel absolutely necessary in the first movie.

Honestly, they are just rats. Like what can they do? They chew through stuff. Uhhuh, . 

Craig: Well, what can they do? Rats are crazy. They smoke . Like they never, oh my gosh. Rats, first of all are very intelligent and they’re relentless. Like they do, they multiply at an insane rate and mm-hmm. , they have to chew like they have to because their, their teeth never stop growing.

Right. And if they don’t chew, they’ll starve to death cuz they won’t be able to eat. So they have to chew. And so if you’ve, I mean, literally in the second movie, it’s suggested in the first one, but more so in the second movie, they are gonna literal. Eat this house down. Yeah. . Exactly. That’s, that’s not un unreal.

It’s not unrealistic. If there were really those bazillions of rats in there Yeah, they would, they would completely, totally destroy a house. Absolutely. No question. 

Todd: And those teeth are strong. They can chew through wire, they can chew through, I mean like metal. Well, they’re, they’re well known for being able to do that.

Now, I don’t know if they can chew through a solid wooden door as fast as the rats in these movies do. Probably not , but the fact that they can do it, absolutely it can happen. And I don’t know, you get a swarm of them together. Really hell bent on making a hole in that door. Well, maybe for the movie’s purpose, you know, I can buy it.

Craig: The thing about the first movie is that I found it to be very quaint. Mm-hmm. , and, and I liked that a lot. It felt like a th well, it’s not a throwback because it was made in the seventies, but it, it had su it so had that early seventies 

Todd: aesthetic, well, honestly, even like a sixties aesthetic really. I thought Fair.

You know, it was 1971, so it’s kind of bridging the decades. . Yeah. It did feel to me like Mary Poppins could have come out a couple years before this. Yeah. , you 

Craig: know, but Right. But Willard w, blonde haired, blue-eyed, I think. I don’t know. Blonde haired. Mm, good looking guy. What’s the name of the actor who played him?

He still works all the time. Bruce Davidson. I can’t pinpoint one thing that he’s in You. I feel like anymore, anytime I see him, he kind of plays like the smarmy older guy, maybe. Kind of a drunk or something. 

Todd: Yeah, I think in the original X-Men movie or maybe X and also That’s right, X two. Yeah. He was, uh, he was in that for 

Craig: sure.

Yeah. He was like the politician who was trying to. Kill all the X-men or 

Todd: whatever. Yeah. Constantly working this 

Craig: guy. Yeah. All the time. Uh, fun fact, in the remake, there are tons of photographs of Willard’s deceased father everywhere, and they’re all of that actor, uh, Bruce Davis. Yeah, that’s an interesting touch.

I loved it. . Um, but anyway, the first movie is cute and, and quaint and really Willard. Okay. So he has a mean boss and. , something happens that gets him really worked up about his boss, and he does have the rats attack the boss. That’s kind of it. Then his only, his only real sin beyond murder, I suppose , is that he realizes that the rats are overtaking the house and he can’t have that.

So he, he tries to kill all the rats and they turn on him and kill him. The ends. That’s the end of that movie. This, and, and so it’s you. , yes, he ordered the rats to kill one person, but beyond that, they weren’t really guilty of anything except doing what rats do. And yeah, but, and then he gets killed, but only because he was trying to kill them.

So it doesn’t, seeing the rats up close and all of that, there’s definitely suspense, but it doesn’t really feel like a horror 

Todd: movie. It’s not that scary. No, I mean, you know, the rats aren’t terrifying. now there’s some awesome closeups of Ben . Yeah, definitely. In the first movie that had me laughing out loud in delight, they managed to get a closeup of this rat, you know, up on a shelf up high, looking down at Willard a couple times with his eyes narrowed and he , he looks about as.

As disappointed and angry as a rat could probably look . I loved it. Those were 

Craig: great and I love the story too, but I feel like we can save that because even though the producers of the 2003 version, they, they refused to refer to this movie as a remake. They said that it was a reworking of the themes from the original with a stronger focus on suspense.

No, this is a straight up remake. It’s same. This is straight story. This. It’s the same story, 

Todd: just 

Craig: same characters. Tweaked a little bit, just tweaked a little bit. But what I liked about it is that it’s tweaked more to the dark. The the first movie I said before is bright and sunny. Most of the time, everything in the 2003 version is dark and, uh, dingy.

Everything. Yes. The, the house that he lives in, the place where he works, uh, everything is drab. And, and so it just has a much darker tone from the get-go, from the opening credits, which I love. They’re like these old timey stop motion credits and there’s like a stop motion skeleton rat. Awesome. It, it, it gave me a feel like, like a Tim Burton type movie.

Like a Tim Burton or like an EC comics kind of vibe. Mm, yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I loved it, but everything’s darker, but it tells basically the same story, which we can get into. But I think what makes this movie work. is Crisp and Glover. Crisp. And Glover is so weird and yes, I 

Todd: love him. Period. Yeah. Like we’re not even like, forget about the movie and his acting.

He’s a weird 

Craig: God, period. No, he’s just weird. He’s a weird guy in his life. He is weird in the roles that he chooses and the way that he portrays them, and I love it. It works for this. Oh, I absolutely love him in this movie because his acting style is just so unique that I don’t, I can’t imagine it working on anybody else, but he plays it.

He plays such interesting oddballs, but in such an honest way, like Willard in this movie as opposed to in the first one is weird. Yeah. He is somebody that would be awkward in social situations and is, he’s very much an oddball. He looks strange, he dresses not weird, but like not necessarily appropriate to his age or the time.

I think most of the time, uh, his boss comments at one point that he’s just wearing his dad’s old suits that don’t even fit him and that’s true. Um, but he’s just an oddball and Crispin Glover plays it so well. And even though he’s totally unhinged, kind of, pretty much from the beginning, even though it only intensifies, he’s also sympathetic.

I was totally sympathetic for this guy and felt bad for him. Yeah. 

Todd: I have to say I wasn’t, and maybe, maybe it’s because my feelings were too colored by the first movie and how much I enjoyed it. That this one being going in such a different direction for me, you know, it’s a choice, right? The filmmakers can make a choice.

They can and do and will and good for them try something different. Otherwise, why remake a movie? And so they, like you said, they sort of deliberately went this way where he’s unhinged from the beginning. This guy, it could have been anything, could have been spiders, it could have been whatever, like he was gonna find something to latch onto and perhaps kill somebody with.

And he has, he gets utter delight out of it at, at points in the movie where he’s seems gleeful about the power that he has with these rats that he doesn’t get. Elsewhere in his life, right? Mm-hmm. . But he, he always, even from the beginning, seems to be this guy who’s gonna go that way. There’s gonna be something that trips him that he’s gonna take and use to his advantage.

And so for me, actually, I didn’t have a lot of sympathy for him at first. Look, I mean, of course like his, he had a shitty situation even worse, really? Because honestly, like take the boss for example, in the first movie, his boss, particularly by today’s standards, is a douchey guy. , yeah. But kind of charmingly, douchey, you know, especially in that way that we look back on like, I don’t know, the Mad Men era and these guys where, you know, they were messing around with their secretaries and were doing stuff, but you know, they always had a smile on their face and they’re trying to kind of like project this aura of like, don’t get me wrong, I didn’t like him.

Right. But, At least for a while, he kind of gives the impression that he’s at least trying to work with Willard. You know, he’s sort of like tolerating him, but he’s also. Not in his face and, and just demeaning him all the time, which is what the boss in this, in the new movie does. Like the boss in the new movie is played by, uh, what’s his name?

R e 

Craig: Emry. . Oh yeah. Famous from, uh, full metal jacket. Metal jacket as a drill sergeant. And I, if I remember correctly, I didn’t look this up, but I think that he got that role because he was a drill sergeant. Mm-hmm. . So like . 

Todd: That’s right, that’s right. . And he’s played mostly drill sergeants in movies ever since

Craig: Well, in those types of roles, I mean, he’s a, he’s a really, uh, intimidating guy 

Todd: and he’s good at it. Yeah. But man, he is over the top mean intimidating bullying toward Willard, almost like he’s just got it out for this guy for reasons that at some point, I, I don’t even really get, you know, except he just likes to be a douche to people.

And Willard’s an easy target. 

Craig: Yeah. He’s gleeful about it. Yeah. I, oh, I agree. But that’s the thing. I think everything Willard in this movie is what they tried to tell us. He was in the old one, but he wasn’t it like, right. Um, . So I fe and don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed them both, but I, I feel like the, the themes and the tone of the first one, were at a solid six and a half, seven.

And they just cranked this one up to 11. Like, yeah, let’s just go for it. Let’s just make it dark and weird. , I just really dug it, , and I did feel for Willard. In part, I’m gonna regret saying this because I know people kind of like him. You know, I work in a high school for Pete’s sake. Teenagers go through really, really awkward phases sometimes.

And to see them struggle in social environments, is it, you know, it affects me. And so I, I see this guy who he’s just trying to go about his life and he’s trying to do everything right. You know, he is got this ailing mother who is domineering and, and a little bit crazy and, but he’s doing everything that he can to be kind to her and care for her.

And he, you know, he takes her criticism like, God, what does she say? She says something awful to him. What an awful name. Well, If you had a strong name that Frank Martin wouldn’t push you around, or maybe you would’ve found a girlfriend if you had a more handsome name. Mark Kyle Clark

from now on on Clock. And then for the rest of the movie, she calls him Matt . Yeah, . 

Todd: That’s crazy, right? What 

Craig: a shitty thing to say to somebody. Yeah. And and you see in his face that it hits him. And I just, yeah, as, as weird as Chris Ben Glover is, and he is, I do think that he’s a good actor and I could see these things in his face.

So and so he has to put up with that. He has to put up with this abusive guy at work and. . You know, again, in all fairness, he is late all the time. His boss has legitimate complaints, I suppose, but he’s such a jerk about it, and, and Willard keeps trying to explain like, I, I’m sure you’re sick of this, uh, excuse, but my mother really is sick and the bosses doesn’t care.

The only reason that he’s even still working there is because apparently this boss, Willard’s dad used to own this company, whatever it is, and somehow Willard’s current boss, Swindled him out of it, bought him out or something. But in the contract, a stipulation of the contract was that he had to allow Willard to work there.

He couldn’t fire Willard. Um, so that’s the only reason he was even working there. But I feel like that’s kind of where the animus comes from too, like. Uh, the boss resents him, so, and he can’t fire him, so he is just gonna treat him as terribly as he possibly can. 

Todd: Well, I think it’s interesting how the things that kind of come out over time in the first movie that are, you know, implied and then spoken of again in different contexts and then, you know, so that it takes time for the whole picture to come forward.

Really gets out right in the. right. In this movie. Like, we immediately meet up with her mom, not his mom. Not only is she old and frail, but she, she looks scary that she is, yeah. She’s almost just as creepy. , you know? Um, she reminded me of the, um, of the sister from Pet Cemetery, Uhhuh I was thinking of when I watched it.

But there’s that, and then, you know, he goes to work and he’s screaming at him almost. He can barely get a word out. And when he goes into his office and he’s, you know, they have this dialogue that you’re talking about, Mr. Martin immediately jumps into, you know, maybe it’s time you just get a rest home for your mom, sell the house.

Maybe I’ll even tear it down and build a p build some nice apartments on it, which is something that is kind of a scheme that comes out over time. Mm-hmm. , um, in the original movie, which I thought was a little more, I don’t know, I just like appreciate the subtlety and the realism of, of that 

Craig: approach.

Well, in, in both movies, maybe you can explain this to me in both movies, I didn’t understand why the boss wanted to get his hands on the house so badly. 

Todd: I don’t either. I think it was a total device. Yeah. I couldn’t figure it out. I just felt he’s just one more person trying to take advantage of this kid.

Right. Uh, is how I felt. Um, just like the parents. But in this movie, because it’s the only one, it and it just, he jumps to it so quickly, it’s just even harder to figure out and swallow. But then he, he very quickly escalates into anger, which is something that the boss in the first movie never really quite does.

Right. And, and is just screaming at him like, you’re, like, basically you’re the reason, you know, you’re, you’re slow at getting these reports done and that slows down the entire business operation. You’ll catch up. All 

Craig: right, asshole. And you’ll catch up on your own damn time. There’s one thing that you will never understand.

Willard business as a rat race promise or no promise, I will not allow myself to be devoured by all of those other rats cause of you. Loved it. Loved it. 

Todd: That line was so inspired, . 

Craig: It was great. And, and, uh, that, that guy, Ari Emry, he’s good at what he does. Um, he is, and he’s an intimidating guy. Uh, I guess Crisp and Glover just found those.

Rantings hilarious. And, um, would just laugh and laugh, which I, I guess I can see. I mean, if you’re in the space, like I, I can see how that could be funny, but Ooh, it’s intimidating, uh, in the movie and y yeah, I mean, full metal jacket. But he was also the evil sheriff in the, uh, Texas chainsaw massacre remakes from the early aughts.

And he was really scary in that too. But anyway, it, as happens in the first movie, the. Uh, in the first movie, there are rats in the garden in this movie, there’re in the basement. And, um, at first, you know, there’s a whole montage of Willard, you know, going to the grocery store and, and figuring out, you know, how he wants to try to capture these rats.

And, uh, I think that they’re trying to project his humanity here. Yeah. Um, it seems like that he, he doesn’t want to hurt them. He just wants them gone. Um, but the humane traps are all sold out. So ultimately he has to buy these rat traps. So he buys, uh, these huge industrial rat traps and sets them, and then overnight they all go off.

But none of them trap any rats, which. , I’m not sure I understand. . 

Todd: Yeah, . They’re supposed to be projected as very intelligent rats from the get-go, 

Craig: I guess. I guess. Well, but then, but then he sets glue traps in the middle of the night. He hears screaming, which if you set glue traps, you will, because they’re cruel.

They’re, they’re. They’re terrible. Please don’t use glue traps. Um, if, if you’re gonna use kill traps, at least use the ones that kill them quickly. Glue traps are torturous and, and they either starve to death or you have to find them and kill them yourself, which is terrible. Um, he hears this screaming and he goes down and there’s this little, it’s not little at all.

It, it’s pretty big. But compared to the other rats, it’s like a baby. This white rat, uh, trapped and he feels bad for it. So he takes it upstairs and he gets some cooking oil and he frees it. And then I thought this was so sweet, and this doesn’t really happen. In the first one while when he grabs the rat, he sees other rats including another white rat watching him from a grate.

And once he has this little one freed, he takes it back down and he puts it at that grate. It’s family was mm-hmm. . And, and the little rat goes with them and he turns around so dejected and sad and starts walking back upstairs and then he hear, hears a squeak and he turns back around and the little white rat is there waiting for him.

And from that point on, That’s his best friend and he names it Socrates. And I love the way that Crispen Glover says Socrates . But it’s cute. And then they’re like best friends. And I want this to now be a buddy movie about Willard and Socrates and the wacky hijinks that they get into 

Todd: going on adventures.

Yeah. . 

Craig: I want him to put Socrates in a little hat. Maybe like a, like a Hawaiian shirt. 

Todd: You want like a Saturday morning animated cartoon series with spin off? Yes. Willard the, yeah. 

Craig: Uhhuh . That’s what I want. But that’s not where it goes . 

Todd: No, it’s not where it goes. Well, you know, another thing that the movie, uh, the new movie I think did really well.

Of course, again, this is another one of the different choices it makes, is it makes off this other rat named Ben almost to be kind of sinister from the very beginning. And the reason is because Willard’s kind of pushing it aside. Uh, to make great for so in 

Craig: favor. Right. Which is different than the first movie, which I found really interesting in the original movie.

He loves them both. Yes. I think that Socrates is his favorite, but he loves them both and he favors them both. And there’s really, I like the angle in this movie that Ben is kind of jilted, and, and kind of, kind of justifiably so like Will is, oh, he is fat Unreasonably mean to him. fat Shamed. This rat is huge.

Todd: This rat is 

Craig: massive. It is like the size of a cat. It’s enormous. Apparently. 

Todd: I went back and I read the Roger Ebert, uh, contemporary and his review of this, and uh, he did, he reviewed both this and the old movie. He didn’t like either of them particularly, or he, you know, he gave them each like two, two and a half stars.

But, uh, he says, which as an aside, Ben, the, the suppo, the rat might, from what I’ve found on the internet, might not have actually been played by an, an actual rat at some other animal. I don’t think that’s true, but there was a rumor going around, but it is actually a rat. Yeah, that can get that big, 

Craig: they can get bigger than that.

I read they can get like 17 inches from the base of the tail to their nose. That’s crazy. And then their tails can be at least that long also. I know. And they can get up to six pounds. That is Well this 

Todd: thing huge this, this thing’s the size of a kitten. I mean it is, oh, at least 

Craig: it’s big . Oh, it’s bigger than a kitten.

It’s like a fat puppy. It’s huge. . Um, and, and Crisp and Glover handles it a lot. And he handles the other, uh, raft. Okay. Two things. One, they wanted Willard to look like a rat. . So they, they, you know, really shadowed his nose to highlight, you know, the, the pointiness of his nose and they, you know, did stuff with his eyes to make his eyes look more beadie or whatever.

And it, it, he does look very rat like, 

Todd: well, you don’t have to go too far to make Kristen Glover look like a 

Craig: rapper. True. That’s globe look like a rat. That’s true. And I don’t know anything about this other than it’s true that Crispin Glover wrote a book called, Rat catching . 

Todd: Yeah. What , I saw that referenced.

I didn’t go down that particular rabbit hole, but I was kind of hoping you would’ve . No, I 

Craig: didn’t. I wish I would’ve too. Like, is there a series? Like does he catch other types of animals? Why is he catching them? I don’t un but I thought that was just an interesting tidbit. Uh uh, again, I will contend that this movie, it rides on the shoulder of Crisp and Glover.

Uh, it has to be because it’s called Willard, you know, it’s his movie and he is by far and away the central character. We, we are with him the whole movie. Yeah. You say you don’t really find him all that sympathetic. I don’t know. I think you at least have to be invested in his story if, if this is gonna work.

And I, I read that they considered other people for it, and I, I thought. . Uh, surely when this movie, when this remake was conceived, they had him in mind because I just didn didn’t think of anybody else. But then I read some of the people that they had in mind. Apparently when this was being written, whoever was writing it was working on another movie with Doug Hutchinson, I’m pretty sure is his name, and was writing with him in mind.

He’s been in a lot. I remember him most from Shawshank Redemption. He was the really, really jerky guard, um, the really mean one. Oh, but. He today? I think, yes, he’s appropriately creepy because he totally killed his career when he married Courtney Staden when she was 15. Do you remember that? 

Todd: Oh, I forgot 

Craig: about that.

Yeah, he was 50 something and she was 15 and they got married. They’re since divorced and, and she now says that she was groomed and so, and I don’t think he works very much anymore, but I could see that he could be creepy. Um, Macaulay Culkin was offered it, and as strange as that sounds, I almost think Macaulay Caulkin pu could pull it off that could’ve worked.

And Joaquin Phoenix and Joaquin Phoenix is a weirdo too, so maybe, maybe he could’ve 

Todd: done it. They all have kind of similar looks too, don’t they? Like kind of, kind of with the pointer noses and sunken eyes and kind of go, can be a little gaunt looking at times. Yeah, we could see 

Craig: that. I, I could see any of them, but I think that, uh, crisp and Glover is great and I like that he’s tall and lanky.

Um, but. Uh, you know, once he befriends these couple of rats and Ben comes second and he just has what, to me, were these heartbreaking moments with Socrates where he says things like, I’ll never let anybody hurt you, or, you’re my best friend. You’re the only friend I’ve ever had. And like, yeah, gosh. . 

Todd: I mean, I thought that was land it on pretty thick, that that was my feeling.

Like I, I just, I felt like he overplayed it. But I think, again, I think that was a choice that the directors of the movie made, cuz the whole movie is kind of overplayed. It’s sort of like the difference between like the Batman TV series and you know, the. Tim Burton Batman movie, you know? Yeah. It’s, it’s that stark of a difference.

Like you said, the, the other was bright and colorful. This is dark and sinister, but it is from the get-go uhhuh, and we’re 30 minutes in and he’s training the rats, and he just seems angry and mean when he’s doing it. You know, in the early, in the first movie, Willard’s feels like delighted. It’s fun. It’s like, oh, it’s like a thing here.

It’s like you can see the wheels turning in his head. Like, I can control them and I’m going to use them to get my revenge, you know, Uhhuh , um, which again, it’s just a choice. It just, it just, it’s a different character. And you’re right, he plays it really strong. But I mean, it’s cartoony as far as I’m concerned.

Yeah. I think it’s overplayed in, in a way that, that at least distanced me from it. And I think that’s just my personal preference. But wouldn’t 

Craig: you say that, is appropriate to the tone of like, everything. Yeah, that’s what I’m 

Todd: saying. Like the house, everything about this movie is like 

Craig: that. The interiors of the house look like an episode of Scooby-Doo.

Like it doesn’t look like a house that anybody lives in. It looks like a Yeah, that’s a creepy, decrepit movie set. . 

Todd: That’s why I said it’s, it’s a clearly a choice. You know, they were going for this style, they’re going for this look. And so I guess what you’re saying is judge it on those merits. I 

guess 

Craig: I, I, I don’t know.

I just, which is fair. I, I, uh, I don’t know. I, I, I feel like I’m trying to convince you to like it as much as 

Todd: I do . Well, I liked it. I just, I didn’t like it as much, and I guess, yeah, it, it, you know, the, like I said, the original movie, kind of a character study I was really into that. I really like, I thought it, it had a subtlety that I really liked.

It had a relatability that I really liked. This. I couldn’t relate, you know, there was no subtlety there. It didn’t feel like a character study. It felt like a character in a movie, which is fine. It’s just a very, very different choice. And so it was very jarring for me. . Yeah. To go from one to the other.

That’s true. And, and what we’re talking about here is sympathy. You know, you found him sympathetic. This is just why I didn’t really latch onto him. And so these moments where he was holding him up close and had him in bed on the pillow next to me, he’s staring at, you know, he’s had this rat for like half a day and he’s already saying, I’m never gonna let anything happen.

I 

Craig: know, but he’s saying. It is heavy 

Todd: handed. It’s heavy foreshadowing. Right. You know, it couldn’t be more obvious foreshadowing. Oh, isn’t this guy so pathetic? And you know, it’s just super dramatic. But again, that’s the style of the movie. Right? 

Craig: Right. But the, when the little rat comes back, like when Willard turns a walk and he turns away and he is walking away, so dejected, like it’s close up in his face and he’s so dejected and then he hears the squeak and he turns around before he even grabs the rat and picks him up again.

Tears well up in his eyes. And this, this happens several times. And uh, I just 

Todd: also. This guy is pretty back and forth at times. He just seems like, oh, you should feel sorry for him. But then it’s, he seems to have this temper. He does. He’s just always right on the edge of going off because Right. What after this, uh, he, once he finds out that the rats can chew things and he goes through his little sequence of training them, um, he gets the idea to unleash them on his boss’s new car, which he’s been basically, um, pushing in his face earlier talking about how, oh, I, I drive this fancy car that the company buys me and helps get his clients and things like that.

And so what better way to get revenge than to be ? Pile up two bags, literally two sacks of rats, , Uhhuh, , dump them out, you know, and, uh, have them go into this guy’s garage and chew the tires up. Right. So he does it. And then there’s kind of a tense scene where the guy wakes up and comes downstairs and he has to get away with the rats and he’s running through the backyard.

He makes it onto the street. Okay. And it’s quiet street, but there’s this dog that’s following them. A little 

Craig: yappy dog. Yeah. 

Todd: Just some little yappy dog and he turns and he looks down and is like, you wanna see what’s in the bag? You stupid little dog. And again, he’s got this manic, insane joy on his face at picking this little dog up and sticking in the bag full of rats, which I thought was gonna kill the dog.

I did too. The fact that it doesn’t was a little puzzling. 

Craig: Well, I think that maybe they would have, but again, Willard gets this look on his face, like all of a sudden you’re right in moments. He certainly is manic and, and he is crazy. I, I do think that he’s unhinged, but the adrenaline is pumping because he’s just escaped.

And this little dog is yapping. And I think that in a crazy moment he throws the dog in there. But as he hears the dog start to yelp, he almost comes back to his senses. And you see it on his face. We know that this guy. Is not inhumane, that’s been established before. And he, he opens the bag and takes the dog out, and the dog runs away.

So presumably it’s okay. Which you’re right, is a little weird. I don’t know that that would be true, but I also don’t know that it would be true that you could lay down two carpet bags on the ground and say in, and have 400 rats run into them themselves. Right. , 

Todd: and then, oh, now back out again. Oh, yeah. . 

Craig: I mean, it’s cool.

It’d be cool if you could, but, right. I don’t know. Yeah. So, yeah, so, uh, he, he has him chew up those tires and then, I don’t know, his mom dies at some point. Um, and the rats are becoming a problem and Ben starts getting pushy, like wanting to sleep with them and stuff. And Willard gets, I don’t un I, I, I was a little uncertain.

About this because I didn’t understand why he was so resistant to Ben. Ben is clearly very intelligent, like probably among the more intelligent of the rats. He’s huge and he appears to want to be affectionate. Is it just because Willard is only interested in Socrates? 

Todd: I think that’s what it is. Well, you know, initially he kind of like singles Ben out.

He’s like, oh, you’re big, you can’t squeeze into anything. And he doesn’t let Ben. He’s like, no, you can’t come, you know, for his first little jaunt to slash the tires of the car. He doesn’t wanna let Ben in the bag. He tells Ben, well if I let you in, then like there aren’t gonna be room for like six other rats or whatever, so you have to stay here.

Well, Ben sneaks in there anyway. And then when he gets out he turns, looks at Ben and he is like, well you’re not gonna be able to fit through that. Ha haha. But then Ben ends up chewing a bigger hole in the garage door and gets in after all Uhhuh . So Ben is constantly like asserting himself, trying himself to prove himself , but, but it’s sort of like, what can Ben really understand?

Speech, you know, I mean, again, it’s so on the nose cuz at one point, just like in the first movie, he realizes there are too many freaking rats here. Yeah. And so at the basement, I think he’s walking up the steps and he just kind of turns to the mall and he says to them, Follow Ben? Yeah. He will find a new place for you.

He’ll find a new home for you. Won’t cha Ben. You’re the leader after Socrates. And then he pulls Socrates up and it’s like, you’re not going anywhere. Socrates, you’ll always be with me. I hate everyone but you 

Craig: bed. Yes. Yeah. I hate everyone but you. And then like, after his mom dies and he is mad at the other rats or something, because at this point they’re kind of taking over the whole house.

And one of the things that I liked about this movie that was not true of the first one is that, uh, in this movie, realistically there is rat shit everywhere. . 

Todd: Oh my God. It’s so disgusting. definitely way truer than the first movie, right? 

Craig: Uh, but yeah, he says, after the mom dies, he says to Socrates, Socrates, if you ever died, 

Todd: I,

Craig: you’re the only friend that I’ve ever had. Yes. Oh my God. But he says it was such since sincerity. And of course you and I know that Socrates is gonna die here in about 10 minutes. 

Todd: Well, who wouldn’t, who wouldn’t? Even if this is the first time you watched this movie, right? It is so foreshadowed. It’s cra it’s crazy.

I thought it was a bit much, but, you know, 

Craig: but one of, one of my favorite parts, uh, is at his mom’s funeral. First he’s there by himself and he kind of says goodbye to his mother with Socrates on his shoulder. And then he tells Socrates to go say goodbye to the mother and Socrates crawls down there or whatever.

And then this girl from work, who’s kind of flirting with him or whatever, shows up and they have a moment. But then this trustee guy shows up to tell him that his mom left him penniless, and in fact, he’s in debt and there’s a mortgage on the house, and he’s probably gonna lose the house. And he’s like, why don’t you just, you know, cut your losses, sell the house and start over.

Todd: And he flips the 

Craig: out. He, he flips out. But what he like. Oh my God. I just think that it’s such an emotional performance and you and I have done very limited acting to push, even if you’re just faking it, to push yourself to that level of excitement. Isn’t easy. Yeah. And I just think that he does it really well here and, and he pushes himself to the point where he’s shrieking and crisp, and glove has an interesting, unexpected voice.

Anyway, it’s very mm-hmm. , he’s very kind of soft spoken. The tenor of his voice is higher and pitched than you would expect from somebody of his stature. Why do I have to pay for what things my parents did? How money can help you. Start over. Start over. I’m almost done. Ooh, Willard. Look, you have no choice.

If I have no choice. Why did you even come here? Why did you even bother telling me? You get off of telling people that they have no control over their lives. That I have no money, no home, and it’s not even my fault. Ugh. That just hit me. I’m like, oh my God, I, I totally can get where he’s coming from. Like, 

Todd: do you get off on telling people they have no control over their lives?

In the first movie, he has a similar scene, which I thought was. . I, I was really into, and that’s when one of the mother’s busy body friends, right? Who’s clearly trying to edge. She’s like, oh, one of the last things I, that your mother said to me was to take care of Willard, please. And so like, she’s just letting herself into the house.

Yeah. At one point he catches her trying to steal China . You know, this woman is clearly like under the guise of just being so helpful and so caring and so loving, trying to edge her way in here for whatever reason. And he, he flips out at her and comes down and he says, give me those keys. And she’s like, no, your mother gave them to me.

He’s like, give me the keys. And she kind of goes out. Well, fine. If you want the keys, take ’em. And he just screams at her. And it’s very similar in tone. Like, this is a stunted man, right? Mm-hmm. , he, he’s screaming like a child. You understand why he is so freaking frustrated at what these people are trying to do to him.

And he still, he can’t do anything about it. He’s very limited in what he can do about it. He feels backed into a corner like a rat in a 

Craig: corner, . Yeah. Well, you know, um, it’s not a bad metaphor, uh, right? It’s kind of, he is, he is backed into a corner and, and you know, we see and, and he sees that this trustee lawyer guy and his boss are in on it together.

And then I feel like it’s maybe the very next day, or as soon as he comes back to work, after having grieved for his mother, he comes back to work to an, a termination notice on his desk with his last paycheck. And he goes in to talk to his boss about it. His boss is just dismissive and, and mean, and, you know, so, uh, just sell me the house and you know, you can take the money and buy a little car and go off and start a new life or whatever.

And here, , um, he breaks down. And weeps, and begs and begs for 

Todd: his job. This part touched me. Yeah. He was literally crying. 

Craig: Yes. Just weeping. And God, you, I, I felt for this poor guy. He has nothing like, he has no connections. Probably not really any skills, right? No, no prospects, nothing. Um, and as, as terrible as this job is, it’s all he has.

And it also just so happens that he has brought both Socrates. He’s been bringing Socrates to work anyway, but he brings both Socrates and Ben to work that day. And just as in the first one, you know, leaves them in the store room, uh, to hang out during the day. But while he’s tearfully begging, uh, his boss for his job, um, some lady sees Socrates and screams, and the boss goes in there and kills Socrates with like a.

Pole. Uh, or, and it’s violent. Yeah, it was violent in the first one. It’s violent in this. It’s bloody. Yeah. And, and Willard just has to stand there and watch and, and more so in this, this was an interesting moment because yeah. Willard is standing there sweaty. I mean, he looks sick, he’s kind of looked sick throughout.

He’s so pale and so gone. And in this moment he’s, he’s sweating, he’s shaking and he’s just kind of watching in horror. And we also see that Ben is watching all of this too. And after Socrates is killed and everybody walks away, Willard almost like justifies himself to Ben. Yeah. Like, what was I supposed to do?

What, what could I do? I couldn’t do anything. And he is, what could I do? And then he looks at Ben and. What could we do? , 

Todd: you know, in, in the first movie, first of all, I didn’t understand why he didn’t intervene. I, I think in this sequel, the emotions and everything and just kind of what was happening, it made a little more sense why he didn’t or couldn’t kind of go in there and stop what was going on.

Right? Right. Obviously, there’s a thing, maybe he’s afraid if he goes in there, they’re gonna track the rats back to him, which I don’t know how that would happen. Well, also, who cares? But in the first movie, the fact, the fact that he just stood there in the doorway and kind of watched it all go down was a little unbelievable.

I mean, this is supposed to be this guy’s best friend, Uhhuh , and at the moment where he’s being threatened and his boss is gonna go in there, he’s gonna do absolutely nothing about it. So, yeah, I thought the second movie was a little better in that regard. But the tone of this scene, cha, is different between both of them.

In the first movie, this is where it seems like Ben. Is now a threat because Ben looks down and sees that Willard didn’t do anything about it, and he’s pissed. . Mm-hmm. , you can tell in the second movie, obviously Ben has a reason to be pissed this whole time, and this is just, you know, the straw that broke his back.

But then Willard enlists Ben. , you know, to go and get his revenge at the same time in this one. So, and he 

Craig: does, and this is the, uh, like the scene that they showed in all the trailers. I mean, it, it’s the best scene of the movie, so you may as well spoil it in the trailers. Yeah. Where, you know, he assembles with Ben’s leadership.

He assembles this enormous, like, ridiculously enormous army of rats, . And he, he takes them all to the office and they all come up in this industrial elevator. And when the doors open, it’s like when the elevator doors open in the shining, like, yeah, , like these rats just pour out of it. And, and as they pour out of it, Willard is slowly revealed as though those rats had literally filled from floor to ceiling the, that elevator and were just all over him.

I mean, it looks great. And obviously this is c g I and it looks really good. 

Todd: It does look good. It’s good for 2003 cgi, 

Craig: honestly. Absolutely. And, and a lot of this, you know, a lot of this, they clearly used real rats, you can tell. Uh, but I never was pulled out and thought, oh, that’s clearly cgi. I, I, I, not once, I mean, I, I know looking at that.

I know it’s cgi, but it looks so good. It looks real. And the rats come in and they attack the boss and, and he ends up in the elevator, uh, and, and they assemble and, and eat ’em up or whatever. Uh, which basically kind of leads to the showdown because this is now when, again, I don’t understand it, there are just too many rats and I get that.

But he tells them to follow Ben. But then I guess they don’t, like, they stick around and that’s when he gets pissed and starts trying to kill him. Is that right? 

Todd: Um, yeah. He’s just like, uh, you know, see you later, Ben. I think he’s trying to get rid of ’em, but it turns out that they’re back at the house anyway.

Or at least, I don’t know. Some of them have already been at the house. Maybe he’s taking care of the last bits. He’s, I think he’s maybe taking care of the last bit of it or whatever. In the first movie, God, he drowns them. And that’s, that’s hard to watch. I had forgotten about. That was even worse. Really? I, I mean, it’s both bad, but like, God, you can just set a, a smoke bomb in the, in the basement, close the door, which is what he does for these guys.

Or you can like, put them all in cages and physically hold them under the water until they’re all dead. Like, that’s a 

Craig: whole different story. Well, they come back. I, I, I think they’re back for revenge, I think is what we’re supposed to believe, because he does kill a bunch of ’em. Scoops ’em all up, burns them in the backyard, tries to rat proof the house.

He can’t, but he can’t really. The captain comes over, she comes in. I thought that she was gonna get her butt. Bit on the toilet 

Todd: too. I was so waiting for that. I 

Craig: also thought that it was hilarious that she comes in without his knowledge or permission, like because he had answered the door, but then he had had to run upstairs to get his coat or something, I don’t remember.

And she comes in, she’s like, I really have to go to the bathroom. And she goes into the bathroom. The toilet seat is duct taped, closed. But I guess she just pulls out a nail file and cuts it open cuz she really has to 

Todd: go. That’s crazy. . She’s very forward. Not only that, but I give her total props for not mentioning anything about the rat shit everywhere.

Craig: Right. Like she was just cool with the . She, she didn’t even ask where that cat was that she had given him. Oh my God. I can’t believe we forgot that scene. It’s from the original two par, at least part of it in the original. This girl who he is interested in, gives him a cat now. I don’t remember what happens to the cat in the first 

Todd: one.

Oh, in the first one He just gives it to another guy cuz you know he can’t have it at home. Yeah, 

Craig: in this one he just throws it in the house. . Oh my God. Before they leave. Is it the cat who turns on the radio? Yes. the cat 

Todd: leaps up, leaps up onto the chair in the room, onto the remote control, which turns on the tv, which happens to be on one of those like cable easy listening stations.

And what is the song that just happens to ? Is Michael Jackson’s bed? Yes. Oh my God. I think one thing we mentioned, we were talking about doing this movie. I was like, well, at least we get to talk about this song, . 

Craig: Oh, bro. I, I’m, I’m telling you, I. Un ironically, love this song, . Oh, 

Todd: I know . It’s a nice song. I, I, it’s been, it’s an earworm man ever been in my head for like 2, 2, 3 days.

Oh my God. 

Craig: I have been singing it around the house incessantly and like just the first line, like est, like just over and over again. It’s driving Alan crazy. And then like, I’ll be in the kitchen and I’ll hear from the living Room,

Todd: It’s that kind of song. Oh my God. It got nominated for an academy. Uh, like best song for Academy Awards. I think it won the Golden Globe that year for Best, best, uh, song. It’s a great 

Craig: John, great song. Michael Jackson said it was one of his favorite songs that he 

Todd: ever recorded. Well, it’s, it was like his first hit as a solo artist, Uhhuh 19, just before his voice broke.

Yeah. I will 

Craig: tell you that. In Ben the movie, which feels even more like a kid’s movie than the first one. And the rats don’t do anything wrong. Oh, in the second movie, like, um, they reference the fact that they killed two people. Well, those are the two people they killed in the first movie. Cause they don’t kill anybody in the second one that I remember.

Oh, they just do rat stuff. That’s disappointing. Well, kind of except, I mean, they’re just rat . 

Todd: Well, well, I mean, I think the way it was market, at least on the video cassette cover was like, if you thought Willard was bad, you know, you should see his brother Ben, which isn’t even accurate, 

Craig: but Right. I don’t remember them killing anybody.

They do attack one little boy and bite his feet, but that’s it. And that’s only because he was picking on their friend in, in that movie. They, Ben, I mean, it, it picks up exactly where Willard leaves off. And like this little boy lives in the house next door and Ben becomes his best friend. Um, and it’s, it’s very cute.

It’s a very cute movie. But this little boy is kind of like, he’s sick. He’s had a heart transplant. That’s a big part of the plot, but he’s also kind of like a savant and, and like he writes music and stuff. And so halfway through the movie he writes that song. Oh, and then for the whole rest of the movie, He is, sings it or plays it on an instrument incessantly,

Todd: Man, that’ll really drill it into your head too. It it, yeah. It, 

Craig: it gets to be a little bit much, frankly, . Um, but anyway, so the rats come back and they’re pissed off. This time it’s 

Todd: personal

Craig: and they come in through the chimney and they come in through the toilet and they’re like bursting through the ceiling and bursting through the walls. And at some point, Willard comes face to face. With Ben and he says something, he says, you can live anywhere. You can go anywhere. I have nowhere. Mm-hmm.

And he tries to trick him into a trap. And right before he tricks him into the trap, he says, I love Socrates, but I hate you. . 

Todd: Yeah, . Well, he really adds it out for Ben . I don’t know why. I still don’t know why, except I don’t either. He’s not Socrates. That’s the only thing I guess. Well, there, there’s a little bit of that.

You know, sinister Ben at the, again, after Ben Witnesses things go on that he fails to help Socrates in the closet when his boss kills him. I’d love it in this movie. Well, Ben keeps showing up on the bed and that’s really irritating to him. Uhhuh . And even though he like locks him in the basement, somehow Ben’s still on the bed.

And then he, he pulls like a one of his dad’s old canes or something and has it under his pillow so that when Ben comes on the bed one time, he tries to whack him with it. And then in the morning when he wakes up, His cane has like been chewed into pieces. , Uhhuh, . 

Craig: I also like, I also like that Socrates is constantly guilting him.

Like, why are you being mean to my friend ? Yeah. And Willard has to apologize like, oh yeah, I wasn’t really trying to hurt him. Uh, . 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: There are other little things that we’ve left out. Like at one point Willard tries to kill himself, but Socrates stops him. , 

Todd: yes. . I thought that was hilarious. No, it is funny.

That was Eyerolling. I liked it. That was Eyerolling though. It is. 

Craig: Oh, it totally is. Come on. So dumb. It is, but willing, suspension of disbelief. I am rolling with this story. I’m down with that. . 

Todd: Well, you think Willard’s gonna die because eventually he gets over overrun by the things there are cops outside who are trying to get in.

Presumably because he’s been tracked as a person of interest in his boss’s death. 

Craig: His girlfriend doesn’t try to help him because she puts two and two together that he must have been responsible for the boss’s death. And 

Todd: she’s not even his girlfriend really? No. She’s a concerned party. I think she could have been left out of both movies and it would’ve been just fine.

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, like, so he, he’s getting overrun. You, you think he’s dead? I, I thought he was gonna 

Craig: die. Well, he falls into a sea of rats. Like he a sea of just 

Todd: like the cat did . Right, right. But then, um, there’s a scene outside of, of the, the cops, and it’s this tracking shot that goes up to the house up into what I think was his dad’s study.

I don’t know, maybe that’s where he and Ben had their final showdown. And you just see the light on in there, and suddenly Ben’s silhouette is in the window, and then you see Willard’s silhouette come behind him and brutally stab the hell out of Ben. Mm-hmm. I mean, I assume it was Ben. It had 

Craig: to be right.

You know, it is because, um, Willard had trapped Ben in a trap, but then Ben had pulled his own or chewed his own foot off and left it, and left it in the trap, and, and the, the rat that you see behind the screen is limping, so, you 

Todd: know. Oh, I didn’t notice that. 

Craig: Subtle note. Yeah. So it’s been, and uh, so he kills him and then there’s like a, a, a cap scene where Willard is in an institution and coincidentally, A friendly white rat joins him in his cell , like he’s, he’s seemingly catatonic, like he won’t respond to the orderly who’s trying to deliver him his food.

But um, then when this white rat shows up, he kind of snaps out of it and says, you’ve come back to me. But we have to sit here and wait quietly. Quiet as a mouse . And then that’s the end. And then the credits roll. And it’s a cover of Ben Sung by Crispen Glover. Yes. It’s so good. And there’s a video for it.

Did you watch the video? No, I didn’t know there was a video. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh, it’s. So good. It’s so weird and surreal, like it’s so real. Um, crisp and Glover is like performing in like a French cabaret and like the red curtain’s open and he flies in from the ceiling and he oh my gosh. Flies down to a pedestal with a red pillow on it.

And Ben is on the pedestal sing and he sings to him. And then like Ari Emre and other people from the movie are in the audience. And it’s a whole thing. You really need to watch it. Wow. You should maybe, you know, post it on our website. I don’t know. It’s amazing, but I love this cover. , 

Todd: Crispin Glover is one of those, I cannot believe he was married to Drew Barrymore for like, he was a hot second.

Yeah, he didn’t last very long, but you know, you just drew Barrymore. Cute, bubbly, happy. More or less. And then I knew, I 

Craig: knew they were friends. I didn’t know they were married cuz they worked together in the, uh, Charlie’s Angels movies that she produced. Mm-hmm. . No, I didn’t know that at all. He’s weird. Um, he is a musical artist too.

I think he goes by Crispin. Heian Glover. Uh, that’s his, which is his 

Todd: literal middle name. . His father had it too, like, oh my god. . Oh my gosh. 

Craig: That’s crazy. And then like, which comes first? The being weird Or the name? Like your middle. If your middle name is Heian, like, I feel like your options are limited.

Anyway, this was a super fun surprise. I had seen this movie before. Probably around the time that it came out. I remember when it came out, I remember thinking it looked cool and I was already a fan of Crisp and Glover at that point, mostly from back to the future, which he’s pretty normal in, but I was a fan already and so I was excited for it.

I didn’t see it in the theater, but I think I s I saw it on videos soon after it’s release, but I don’t remember much about it, but I was excited to watch it again and I’m glad that we had the opportunity because otherwise I, unless we did it for the podcast, I don’t think I would’ve watched the original and I loved it.

And watching the original gave me even more of an appreciation for this movie. Now. I love them both. And I would recommend either of them. And if you really want to get into it, watch ’em both cuz they’re fun to compare. 

Todd: Yeah, they really are. 

Craig: Because they’re the same story, but they’re told in such different 

Todd: ways.

Almost Beat for beat. The same story. Uhhuh, drastically different, uh, interpretations of, uh, you know, they’re told in different ways. Like you said, critics were very mixed on both of these movies. But the, like I said, the original was a surprise hit and people didn’t really know why. It just, just was very, very popular.

I think I can tell you why. I just think it’s a great character study and it was really fun. Mm-hmm. , I would recommend watching the original a hundred percent. Just be aware. It’s slow. It’s a slow burn. . Um, but it’s got a lot of great subtlety in there and great performances. Mm-hmm. , I think the main actor that’s totally believable in his role.

Yeah. It’s not played cartoony. It’s played very straight and it’s very effective, I think. And as a horror movie, like, you know what, it’s, it’s, I think it’s PG or, you know, it’s, it’s not a super scary movie. It’s not even close Uhhuh . But, uh, it’s really good. And this one, like I said, different kind of movie.

I thought it was super campy, very over the top, which is fine. It’s just very different from the original. So, uh, you’re, you’re gonna get two completely different experiences, I think, in watching it. Um, yeah, 

Craig: it’s true. They are 

Todd: different. I lean, I lean more towards the first one. If, if you’re gonna tell me, like, if I have to like destroy one forever, I would probably want to keep the original and not this one, but, uh, to each their own.

I thought it was a little over the top, but also it was very clear that the movie wasn’t taking itself seriously. Well, they were 

Craig: going for a very, uh, purposeful aesthetic mm-hmm. , and I was, I was down for it. Like I was on board. I was on board from those opening credits. Um, the music and, and the style. I felt like I knew what I was getting into and I wasn’t disappointed, but 

Todd: it’s played just seriously enough that I can see why maybe it didn’t connect with audiences very well.

Yeah, it didn’t do well at all because they wanted something a little more scary. This is campy horror. This isn’t really scary horror. I, yeah, it 

Craig: was, I would say it was supposed to be an R rating, but some other movie that was PG 13 did really well right before it. And so at the last minute they decided to trim it to get it down to a PG 13.

It sounds like all they did was take out a little bit of the part where the boss was getting killed. Yeah. And took out some of his foul language. So it doesn’t really seem like , it made that big of a difference. Um, and we, we’ve had the debate before, like, would it have done better in the theaters if it had had an R rating?

Maybe. Who 

Todd: knows? Well, you can see those deleted scenes on YouTube. There’s, I, I watched a few of ’em and that one, yeah. Where it was just a little bit bloodier. Not much of him 

Craig: and my boss in this. Could you? I looked for the alternate ending and couldn’t find one. Cause I read there was one. Did 

Todd: you find it?

I did too. No, I couldn’t find it. I was looking all over for 

Craig: it. I don’t know. Apparently there’s an alternate ending, but I don’t know what happens 

Todd: in it where, where he dies, I guess. I mean, what’s. I don’t know. Or he gets away. , 

Craig: probably one of those. Uh, but anyway, thank you patrons who requested this movie, cuz it had not crossed our minds, but I really had a good time with it.

It was a lot of fun to watch and, and talk 

Todd: about. Oh, absolutely. The both. This one and the original. Yeah. Uh, well I think we, do we still have one more to go for our 

Craig: rema fund? One more. Let’s do a little tease. I, I would say that this is probably one of, if not the most notorious remakes of all. . 

Todd: Mm-hmm. . We can’t wait to talk about it.

wait for that next week. You can find us as always at 2guys.red40net.com. If you want to, uh, help us choose the next theme month or, uh, help us with more requests like our patrons have done, check out paton.com/chainsaw podcast and consider joining the crew contributing to the podcast so that, uh, we can continue to bring it to you.

And, uh, for doing that, you get some influence over the show, as well as some other goodies for Mini SOS that we release a couple times a month. A full unedited, um, phone call that we edit down to put this podcast together and a couple other goodies, uh, up there as well. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Happy Valentine’s Day, Dear Listeners! Our valentine to you this year is a bit on-the-nose, but you know that’s how we roll.

This second week of Remake Month, we’re tackling the slick 2009 remake of 1981’s My Bloody Valentine, which we previously reviewed on this podcast and found very charming. The remake features much more beautiful people, brutal kills, a crazy bit of inspired full-frontal, and more 3-D gags than you can shake a pickaxe at. There’s no better way to celebrate the holiday! Curl up with your sweetheart and dig in.

My Bloody Valentine 3D (2009)

Episode 334, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: We are week two into our month of remakes. We just came off of our remake of The Blob from 1958. We jumped forward a couple decades and do a remake of a movie that’s a little more modern, but still way back there.

This is the 2009 remake of the 1981 Canadian Slasher Film, My Bloody Valentine, except this. My Bloody Valentine 3d. 

Craig: 3D . Yeah. Fancy 

Todd: and crazy that it was the very first RealD R-rated release in the us Uhhuh . So they really took advantage. I, I wish I had actually seen this movie in 3D because it was so shockful of 3D gags.

Craig: Yeah. I mean that’s kind of it, like , it’s a lot of really fun 3D gags and then kind of a movie around that. . 

Todd: Yeah. Right.

It did really well, but you have to wonder, I mean, it was a $14 million budget. It, it raked it over a hundred. Um, you do kind of have to wonder if that wasn’t part of it. Right? Like, Ooh, we could see a horror movie in 3D . Oh, yeah. 

Craig: Oh, I’m sure that was a huge part of it. I saw it in 3d. It was good. Oh, you did?

Yeah. Oh, okay. I went to the theater with my dad. I, I mean, I don’t remember a lot of specifics about it, but I, I remember seeing it. I, I didn’t even, I knew that I had seen it when we decided to do it, but it wasn’t until I saw those pop out 3D effects in 2D that I remembered that. Yeah, I saw it in 3D and it was good.

Wow. , the, the 3D 

Todd: effects were fun. They were, I mean, just, just like a bowl of laughs really, like , like just every excuse they can do to, to shove a pick ax in your face. Well, 

Craig: I mean, what better weapon really for, for a 3D movie? You know, that thin pick ax just coming right out at you and it, and it will every 10 minutes or so, every 10 minutes.

Todd: It’s not light on kills at all. Or gore or even nudity. Boy, I can’t wait to talk about that scene. We saw the original Uhhuh, we did the original on here and we, we enjoyed it. I remember we enjoyed it, although we were, we acknowledged that there was some ridiculousness, uh, to the plotting. It seemed very focused on this little love triangle drama and this intense hatred that all these people had towards this one guy who came back, you know, after all these years.

And I remember us going like, number one, why do they hate this guy so much? And number two, like, , why the hell are we spending so much time with this stupid love triangle drama shit between those three characters And at the end of the movie, they kind of ended up getting kind of together and there was a moment where they had to put their differences aside and go and hunt down the, the girl that was trapped in the mine.

I was really shocked at how closely to the original this went. I mean, it wasn’t exactly like the original, but it did follow pretty closely to the storyline in some, in many ways, at least. The idea of the storyline, I thought, yeah, 

Craig: it did. I mean, they intentionally changed some things to surprise you, which mm-hmm.

good. They, they should. When we first started watching it, at first I thought, Ooh, maybe this is gonna be more kind of a reboot, sequel kind of deal. Yeah. Because the first 10 minutes are action heavy and the first 10 minutes almost felt like the first movie. Yes. Because in the original movie, most of the kills happen while these teenagers are having a party.

at the mine. Mm-hmm. . And, and that’s the first 10 minutes of this movie. So I thought maybe we were gonna kind of get this 10 minute recap of the first movie, and then it was gonna expand upon the story, but it didn’t really, 

Todd: yeah. Thank God. Or else we would be, you know, going against our , our commitment to do remakes and not reboot.

See, I was worried about it too, but it sort of turns out they just kind of flipped things a little bit in the original movie. Like you said, all the kills take place at this party that they’re not supposed to be having on Valentine’s Day, because the last time there was a Valentine’s Day party, this killer, um, right.

Who had been trapped in a mine and killed some people, it’s a little convoluted, came and killed people, and they do it. And that’s tempting fate. And the guy comes back, or kills 

Craig: happen, right? Yeah. Like in the, in the original, that party where a bunch of people had gotten killed, it happened like 30 years ago.

It’s like in this movie. Yes. Yes. It, it just happened. 10 years ago to the same people . Right. That the movie is 

Todd: now gonna be about. Yeah. Yeah. So it was almost just like showing us what was just talked about in the previous movie. 

Craig: Right. But it was, it was a good opening sequence. I, I mean, I was kind of surprised, uh, by it, it’s, it starts with just, um, a montage of like newspaper headings and kind of just gives you the background, I guess.

Uh, a bunch of men were buried. Alive in these minds. Tom is the main character played by Jensen Les. I guess it was his fault. Like he forgot to bleed. He forgot to bleed the lines. I don’t know what that means. I like gas lines, I guess. Yeah. 

Todd: Not too sure about that bit. Uh, I don’t know. He would’ve been what, like a teenager, so I mean, right.

I 

Craig: don’t know. , it’s hard to a teenager or, or early twenties. It is hard to say because 10 years pass after the first 10 minutes. But nobody ages. 

Todd: No at all. . There’s no attempt at all to age these people. No . 

Craig: But anyway, there was, there was an explosion and it was apparently his fault and nobody was killed in the explosion.

But one of the minors down there, the only one who survived, killed all the other. To eat them , like I, or was he just 

Todd: crazy? I don’t know. It was something about the oxygen or he killed them because he was afraid they were gonna use up all his oxygen, I think. Yeah, 

Craig: maybe. Whatever. He killed them. He got a, yeah, when he got out, he was in a coma, but then he woke up from the coma.

I don’t even , I, I guess I must not have taken notes on the opening scene just because I, I don’t see anything in my notes, but there a bunch of stuff happened in the mine. Was that right away? Was that the very. 

Todd: Well, you just talked about the opening sequence of, and then, then the nurse comes in and Harry Warden sits up.

Harry Warden is inside the hospital. He’s the guy who we talked about who had, I think the whole mining accident bit that you just talked about. Um, and he, this guy ended up in a coma that was told to us through the newspapers and the voiceover during sort of the opening credits, which were very 3d. Yeah, 

Craig: I remember.

We see this cuz he wakes up the guy, the minor wakes up and slaughters an entire floor of a hospital. Just slaughters, 

Todd: everybody in the worst possible ways. There are body parts everywhere. There’s, there’s blood all over. Almost like he’s just taken complete joy in it. and I love these cops who my gods, the acting, this movie can be so bad at times, even from people I know who are decent actors.

The delivery, oh my goodness. These two cops who go up there and 1, 1 1 goes, the guy waited too long to retire. 

Craig: You and me, both h. Who did this? Harry Warden. 

Todd: Harry Warden’s in a 

Craig: coma. 

Todd: Guess he 

Craig: woke up

I didn’t even notice. I don’t know. I think I was expecting it to be kind of hokey like that, I guess. I thought the acting was 

Todd: fine overall. At the same time. There’s that party going on at the. 

Craig: Right. That’s how it happened. Mm-hmm. . So then we see, but really, I, I feel like we shouldn’t gloss over, when I say slaughtered an entire floor, like Oh yeah.

At first I thought he had just killed like the person in the bed next to him. And when I say kill, I mean like rips into a thousand pieces. . Yeah. Like the 

Todd: lower half of his body’s gone and the arm is somewhere else and Yeah, I did. They’re just, their body parts like literally just spread everywhere. It almost feels like in a way like this, this is like a haunted house, like if you walk through Yeah.

a super gory one. Like just, ah, throw all the body parts here and just everywhere you can tuck some fake legs and arms and heads and stuff like that. And splash blood all over the wall. Everywhere. Right on the wall, everywhere. It is a mess. 

Craig: Yeah, it’s an absolute, it’s nuts. And I saw, uh, an interview with the writer whose name I don’t have handy.

He’s also in. The movie Todd Farmer. Yeah. Um, I saw an interview with him and he said that most of these kills and like all of this gore, Is the director, uh, he, I think he said something like, this guy lives and breathes and dreams, blood , , and, and I believe it because this is a really bloody movie. And you know, the kills are great, but maybe even more impactful.

It’s just like aftermath. Yeah. The aftermath that you see is just crazy. To 

Todd: the point when I was, I was thinking, did we get an unrated version of this? You know, because it’s so excessive. But no, I don’t, I don’t think so. I think it’s just, yeah, it’s 

Craig: just gory, just gory movie. But yeah. So, so then there’s, uh, the party, well, first of all, and I wondered if, um, you felt the same way and I feel like maybe it started to.

Maybe I didn’t notice as much as the movie went on, but the way that it’s shot Yes. In real d or whatever. First of all, when it’s closeups on people, it’s some of the like, cleanest mm-hmm. , I, I, I don’t even know how to, like, it’s, looks, look really, it’s, it’s really, really sharp. Like almost looking at a, a, a photograph.

Mm-hmm. , I don’t know how to describe it, but the depth stuff. And that, you know, real sharp imagery of anybody in closeup, it kind of gave it like an uncanny valley kind of feel. Did you? Yes. It was a little bit disorienting at first. Maybe I got used to it as the movie went on, but it was a little bit disorienting at 

Todd: first.

I felt like, um, it almost had the look of shot on video back in this time, like 2000, oh, I guess it was more like around 2009 and, and, and a few years before it, especially like 2001 when Lucas was shooting, um, his Star Wars prequels. And I remember th that being a big deal because he was shooting them entirely on video.

And before that, just a year or two before that, like we were just experimenting with this, but people weren’t really shooting movies on video. They were, they were shooting them on film, digitizing them, then adding effects and things, you know, digitally. And then, so they still had that film look, but some of those earlier video cameras that were specifically made for shooting big budget Hollywood movies to them still, they were a little too sharp, A little too CRE clean.

A little too crisp. The action was a little different. I’m also thinking about, we did a while back, what was that movie where they’re going in and doing asbestos abatement? Session nine. Session nine, that’s right. Session nine, which was the first mo big budget movie shot on entirely on video with that newer technology.

This had a little bit of that look to it. It was just like a slightly upgraded version of it and And the only difference was I think this was better lit and like you said, yeah, a lot of specific shots, especially like the 3D ones. I don’t know if it was the way the digital effects were added in or maybe just.

the way that the camera had to be for it, it just seemed a little too sharp and crispy. Right. And real. Yeah. I know what you mean. 

Craig: And gosh, I, what is it at the hospital? I don’t know. I’ve got the Sheriff Burke is investigating. Mm-hmm. . And there’s a heart, a human heart in a box of chocolates. Which of like the, you know, the heart-shaped Valentine’s boxes, which is, you know, a direct tribute.

I don’t know. It’s a remake. So it’s not really a tribute, but it comes directly from the original, that’s like the killer’s calling card or whatever. Mm-hmm. , you find that, and there’s like heart’s drawn on the walls and mirrors and, and Harry is gone. And then we jumped to the party at the mine where we meet like the main characters, I suppose.

And these characters are the same as in the original. It’s this love triangle. You’ve got axle. played by Kurt Smith, who a hundred years ago when we had our guest, uh, host Simone. She was a big fan of Kurt Smith. He’s from Dawson’s Creek and many, many other things since then. Mm-hmm. But he kind of plays like, you know, the rough edgy guy.

And then there’s Tom and Sarah, and Tom is played by Jensen Les of supernatural fame. But again, he’s done bunches of stuff. Um, and Sarah played by Jamie King. And they set it up immediately that Tom and Sarah are together, and Axl is super jealous and like blatantly, so like, makes it perfect, like totally obvious that he’s jealous of them.

Um, and they’re all headed into the mine for a party. And there’s other people partying around, but immediate, like Sarah walks in there, she’s like, takes 10 steps in and a guy gets stabbed through the eyeball right in front of her . 

Todd: Suddenly. It’s so funny because at some moment I realized like Sarah’s walking into the mine looking for someone.

I’m not exactly certain, but as she’s walking through, it’s like suddenly the party is just done this party where kids are coming in and out of the mine and hanging out and there’s all this music and noise. Like suddenly there’s nothing. I guess it’s because this Harry warden is there taking everybody out with the pick hacks.

Yeah. And there’s 

Craig: a, there’s a tense scene where I, I what, like two or three other people get killed, right? Mm-hmm. . 

Todd: Oh yeah. And they’re hiding, but just off to the side and these other people getting killed, kind of more or less distract him. The killer from them, and they, they all kind of managed to get out, but, uh, who is it they leave behind?

Tom. Tom? Yeah. Oh, there’s a great effect, by the way. One girl who gets killed was a, like a shovel in the mouth. Oh, right. 

Craig: Yeah. Like, I feel like we just saw something like this in, um, wrong turn. Wrong turn, yeah. Where the, the whole. Part of her head gets cut off in this case with a sh a shovel, I think. But yeah.

Well, and, and the effects are 

Todd: good, and maybe because of the 3d, they really insist on pushing you right in the faces of these victims. Absolutely. Right. The, their heads are covered. So this woman, it’s like you’re looking down the handle of this shovel as it is shoved into her mouth and all the way through to the back of her head.

And again, her head is just filling the frame, and then that top part of her head just kind of slowly slides forward on the shovel as the rest of her body falls away. It’s great. The effects are fantastic. And I assume a number of them were digital, but Oh yeah. They had to be, I couldn’t tell, you know, they weren’t obvious digital.

Craig: No, they looked good. Yeah. Even you know that I said that a guy gets his eye stabbed out from behind. And again, you’re right. Like. Just the head pretty much in frame and the pickax comes through the back out his eye. So the eyeball is on the tip of it. Mm-hmm. and it comes right out at you. Yeah. Uh, cuz it’s 3d, but even in 2D it still looks fun.

You can just tell , obviously this was one of their big 3D moments. Mm-hmm. . Um, but yeah, so Tom kind of gets left behind. I don’t really remember why, but, um, the sheriff comes in and shoots Harry like three times. Yeah. But, um, Harry makes his way off into the mine and apparently they. Never found him, or at least that was the story or something.

Huh? And then we jumped to 10 years later and Tom was coming back to town because I guess his dad has died and his dad owned the mines and he’s coming back to sell the mines. And so everybody hates him. Yeah. Because he’s selling the mine. He’s like, you know, robbing them of their livelihoods and he’s gonna ruin the whole town, but he can’t for the life of him understand why everybody’s so mad.

Yeah. I 

Todd: don’t get it. You are dead, boy. Why are you so mad at me? Wait, this guy was not cut out to be a businessman. Let’s just put it that way. He can’t get the basic concepts of business and employee satisfaction down. Uh, this was a little different from the original because as I remember in the original, the party is the big event that leads to all the killing that we see in the film.

And what we just talked about would’ve been more like, . It wasn’t even a flashback sequence in the first film, but the, but it was, it was an event that they discussed in the first film. Right, right. So there’s that. But uh, in the first movie, I just remember that Tom comes back and it’s just like, because he ran away and left them, they’re pissed off at him.

Uhhuh . I, I don’t remember there being anything about his dad or the mine or any sale of the mine or anything like that. 

Craig: In fact, and the original wasn’t, I think Axel’s dad owned it or something. Or maybe, maybe, oh, I don’t remember. Maybe Axel’s dad was killed. I don’t remember. It had something to do with Axel’s dad, at least 

Todd: in this case.

They gave kind of more of a reason, you know, whereas I think when we were watching the old movie, they were like, God, why does everybody hate this guy so much? , you know, like, let the poor kid come back to his hometown and hang out, you know, and, and everybody just had a vendetta against him for no good reason.

So I don’t remember 

Craig: in the original, when. He, he’s got a, I think his name is TJ in the original, but the characters, Tom, when he comes back in this movie, Axl and Sarah are now married and have a kid. I don’t think that was the case in the 

Todd: original, was it? No. They were just like girlfriend, boyfriend.

Everyone seems stunted in their teenage years. Yeah, right, right. Yes, 

Craig: I do remember talking about that. This, that adds a whole new level. Yes, and and for me it was like, why now? Is there still this love triangle right now? They do establish, they do establish that Axel’s a jerk. Like he’s cheating on her with her friend, but she works, who 

Todd: works with his wife.

Oh God. 

Craig: And look, I don’t know, maybe it’s a straight dude thing, but like if you are going to ch cheat on your wife, would you. With the person who is as identical to her as could be , like these two girls, aside from like a, a four inch height difference. They’re identical. Yeah. Like, I don’t know. I would just think if you were gonna cheat on your wife, you’d might be want like spice it up.

I don’t you want, you’d want 

Todd: something you tried to add variety into your life. Not more the same. Is that what you’re saying? ? 

Craig: I guess, but whatever. He’s a jerk apparently. Um, but they’re married and they have a kid. Yes. It would even be a totally different thing if like, okay, they’re married, but people get divorced.

You throw a kid in there that, that complicates everything. Mm-hmm. . So it’s just weird. To see, and I wouldn’t even say that Tom and Sarah flirt, but there’s clearly something between them. Mm-hmm. , Tom, where did you go? It’s been 10 years. You look even prettier than when I left. You say that like you just went off to school or something, you just vanished.

Your dad didn’t even know where you were. We all started to think that you were 10 and it’s like awkward, like and 

Todd: also, I don’t even know how to describe it. Tom’s a little antagonistic as as well, which, you know, it’s hard to gather too much sympathy for him because I think at one point, and I don’t remember, I think it’s later in the movie, but he just kind of out of the blue, starts an argument up with Axl by telling Axl that she settled for him.

And I was like, God, what , where did that come from? You know? It just think, I just felt like the Phil, the writer, was trying to create some drama here and it felt a little forced and a little, I, I was a little head scratching at times. You know, I don’t really believe that people would necessarily act this way.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, there are people who do act this way. There are some very childish people who do really stupid things. Right. But I don’t know, just like they’ve been married for a while. They’ve got a kid who’s not a baby, you know? No. They’re established in town. I’m even wondering like, why does Axl, aside from Oh, AXLs a jerk, why does he even really consider Tom a threat?

Well, cuz his wife 

Craig: is fawning all over him, I guess. I don’t know. Kind of, but 

Todd: not really. I mean, he doesn’t really see that. Right. He, he suspects it. Yeah. Right, because he knows that they’ve bumped into each other, but he’s never standing there watching them make eyes at each other. 

Craig: No. No, he doesn’t. But he does find.

A photograph of them that his wife has pulled out and accidentally left on her dresser, like . That was stupid. That’s so stupid. . . 

Todd: That was really funny. I was rolling my eyes repeatedly, . Oh God. You don’t pull out 

Craig: a picture of your old boyfriend and pin over it and then just accidentally leave it out. That is ridiculous.

And, and I just, I just watched some cast interviews and, uh, the girl who plays Sarah brought this up, but the, like, all of them concurred that they were so proud of this movie because it’s not your stereotypical slasher because it’s so character driven. , like they, they have put so much thought and so much work into their characters and into their relationships that, you know, you really are invested in these people and you’re conflicted about who it might be and like, Somebody said, um, Kurt Smith has a really narrow line to walk because you’re supposed to be suspicious of him and think he did it, but at the same time, you’re kind of supposed to like him.

And, ugh, 

Todd: I didn’t give a shit about any of these people. I didn’t either. , 

Craig: I, I kind of like the, the drama between the three of them was dumb. Yeah. And boring. And I wished that, like those parts, I, I just, I was waiting for them to be over. Like, I don’t care. I, I don’t care about you talking on a bridge. I don’t care about you having a meat Cute in the grocery store.

Like, yeah, who cares More killings, . 

Todd: It was, it was a little melodramatic at times as well. I felt like the characters were very heightened. Maybe they put too much into their characters where they almost started to feel kind of stock after a while, especially Axl. I’m like, why is this guy just seem mean?

And. Cheaty and pissy all the time, you know? Yeah, I 

Craig: know. He’s always in such a bad mood, like, why did she marry him in the first place? He’s so grouchy. But maybe, maybe it got lost in the editing. I did. See, I didn’t have time to watch them all, but I did see that there’s, uh, close to 20 minutes of deleted scenes Oh, wow.

Available on YouTube, which I assume is from either a DVD or Blu-ray release probably, but maybe some of it got lost because it, it seems like they, the actors were giving character. It just didn’t really translate to me, especially with Tom, who it seems to me is barely in the movie. 

Todd: Right. Yeah. kind of, yeah.

Now that you’ve mentioned it, , 

Craig: like he’s important and they talk about him a lot, but he just kind of pops up on screen. Every once in a while to remind you that he’s still there. He just 

Todd: pops up on the screen looking confused, Uhhuh . So, and while other people berate him for one thing or another, , and then he wanders off or punch him.

Yeah. Including this guy named Ben, this older man named Ben. Now, that actor sure seemed familiar to me. What do I 

Craig: know him from? Oh, yeah. Gosh, I don’t know. Uh, both the, the, the older gentleman that played Ben and the one that played Burke both have been in a bazillion things. Um, Kevin Teg or Tahi, T I G H e, I don’t know how to pronounce it.

Mm-hmm. , I don’t know. He’s been in a million things, and I feel like he always plays smarmy guys. Mm. He’s not as smarmy in this, but I, I think we’ve seen him in horror before. I don’t know. Yeah. One of our listeners will tell 

Todd: us. I feel like he’s, he’s all over tv, that’s for sure. Maybe that’s where it is. So, yeah.

Um, so they, they have an argument because, uh, this is where we first learned about Tom’s gonna sell the mine, and Ben is arguing with it. Your dad and I protected those men. Selling the mine won’t sit well with anyone in this town that mine is Harmony’s life blood. Tom, we’re talking families here. 

Craig: I was assured that, that everyone would get severance and that the more experienced men like yourself would be 

kept 

Todd: on for how long?

Three months. . It’s not my problem. . I 

Craig: know, but gosh, it’s so contrived. Yeah, because it just feels he, he did not need to come all the way back after being missing for 10 years to sign a piece of paper. Yeah. Like this is 2009. Yeah. Like, have lawyer have a lawyer sign it, fax it. Like there that, that’s, that’s not a legitimate reason to be there.

No. Secondly, the people in the town can be pissed off at him all they want, but he’s under no obligation to keep this mind. Yes. Like . 

Todd: And why then, knowing that everybody’s pissed off, does Tom just wander randomly into different places? Like he decides he’s gonna stay at this CD motel. I thought you were rich.

I mean, if you own this mine and you’re gonna sell it, and then one moment he’s going into the bar for no reason. It’s like he’s meeting anybody. No, he just wanders into a bar so that the old men there can get pissed off at him again and yell at him for selling. The mine is Tom just wandering around the streets, just trying to antagonize people.

It was just 

Craig: funny. I, I don’t think he’s trying to antagonize people, but I think ultimately we can explain. Why this is, but yeah. Yeah. I, so, yeah, he checks into this c mo cd motel. This scene is brilliant. Like, oh, I love this scene. absolutely loved it. First of all, the lady who runs the motel is this famous little person who I know.

I’ve seen another stuff, but I couldn’t, I couldn’t place her. And she’s got this adorable little dog, and they’re a cute little pair, but she gives him a room, and as he’s walking to his room, he hears people banging loudly. Now, this is a cheap motel, like a, a roadside motel. So yeah, , these things happen Yeah.

Here, but he, he kind of walks by and pauses and, and kind of glances towards the window. Not even really in any kind of creepy or pervy way, just kind of, you know, a quick glance. And then he almost like rolls his 

Todd: eyes. Really? 

Craig: Yeah. Right, right. Um, and then he keeps walking. and then we see the scene. It’s this huge guy who is the writer of the movie.

Mm-hmm. . He’s this great big guy. I, I called him Mr. Clean. Yeah. , because that’s what he looks like. He’s really mu and he’s banging this blonde girl who is actually one of the girls that we had seen at the party. She was like in the same friend group as all of these other young people. Irene, right? I think Uhhuh.

yeah. And she’s played by Betsy Ru. Betsy Ru, who I don’t know a lot about. But what I do know is that she is Buck naked. For the next five minutes. Yeah. First of all, it’s a pretty graphic, uh, sex scene. Um, very, uh, she’s having fun, athletic, and . Yeah, 

Todd: flipping around. She ends up on top. I love it how she looks.

Of course, this is also your typical CD of Motel Room that’s meant for, I guess the honeymoons with like mirrors on the ceiling and there’s like a hard shape of bathtub in there. And she’s like, oh, oh. She looks up in the mirror on the ceilings, like, oh, I look great . 

Craig: And she does. She looks, um, she does look great.

And so they finish and he gets up and starts getting dressed and he grabs a video camera, which she didn’t know was there. And he’s like, well, this is just for my personal collection, but also I’m done with you. Or something. Like he’s breaking up with her and to add insult to injury, he throws cash at her and she’s like, I’m not a hooker.

And he’s like, well, you are now. This guy 

Todd: was a tool man. . 

Craig: Well, he was mean. Yeah. Like that was unnecessary. Just leave. But he goes out, uh, to his rig, uh, or whatever, and she chases him out fully nude. Now, I read in interviews after this, she said that it was actually her idea to remain nude when she ran out into the parking lot.

Mm-hmm. , I, she said it’s because we shot it a bunch of times and she kept trying to like grab the sheet and cover herself, but it just felt awkward and it wasn’t really working. And she said, just forget it. I’m just gonna do it naked. She said, in this moment, my character wouldn’t be worried about being seen naked.

She’d just be worried about getting that camera back. So she chases him out there fully naked, which I thought was a bold move, but also like a badass move. . Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. She comes across really badass in this Uhhuh , 

Craig: and he, he opens the door to his rig and the minor is in there and. Mr. Clean gets the pick ax through the head right in front of Irene.

Mm-hmm. . So she runs back to the room and it’s just a really great, you know, she scurries under the bed. Um, you don’t know if he’s, you don’t know if he’s gonna find her there, but of course he is, but not before. Like, he walks the minor, walks in the room and then hears somebody else coming. And so the minor goes in the closet and the.

Lady who runs the motel comes in looking 

Todd: for her dog. That bit I didn’t get, why is she coming into this random room so that he can kill her? Yeah, I know , I’m just, I’m just pointing out the logical problem there. But yeah, anyway, , 

Craig: right? Yeah, no, it doesn’t make any sense. Like, she doesn’t even knock or anything.

No. Maybe the door was open. I don’t know, . But anyway, she comes in and, uh, she opens the closet and he’s in there, and then he like underhand the pick ax up through her head. And because she’s so small, he, you know, lifts her completely off the ground and smashes her into like the suspended ceiling. , the lights flash and uh, I dunno.

It’s a great kill. Yeah. And then Irene makes a noise under the bed. Not like he wouldn’t have found her anyway, but she makes a noise and he pulls the mattress off the bed and it’s just a wire frame, so it’s like she’s, but like in a cage. Mm-hmm. somehow, either he lifts up the bed or she stands up and lifts it up.

She does. She ends up propped up, like backed up against the wall with the bed frame in front of her. And again, it’s, you know, kind of exploitive and, and voyeuristic and totally for the male gaze. But I just thought that that imagery of her. Fully naked and vulnerable, looking like she’s in a cage and trying to fend off this guy as he’s, you know, swinging his pickax at her and, and misses a couple times.

I just thought that it was a really good, scary scene and really good imagery. I liked it and I think she was right. She was right. Her being nude added something to the scene. I thought 

Todd: she was absolutely right and you know, honestly, like it felt way more real that way. Mm-hmm. and she came across as way more badass.

And I, after a while, you not, not after a while, like after a very short while, like the fact that she’s nude is almost superfluous. Like you’re not even really thinking about it. Uhhuh because she’s just defending herself and she’s just that much more vulnerable, like you said, because. completely naked.

They, she talked about doing that scene, how they had to change it and everything. And, and that bed apparently was not light , you know, so they had to work out how to do it. And, um, it was just kind of a fluke that the writer ended up in that role. Like I think they had somebody else for it. But then that person backed out and he kind of approached the writer and said, would you like to do that?

And he was like, heck yeah, I’d love to do that. And as I was reading a little story that um, Betsy Rue and, uh, Todd Farmer ended up on the same plane to go out to the shoot and he was talking to a person next to him about being on the movie and, uh, shooting the movie. And she overheard it. She was just like two seats ahead.

So she just like, turns around and goes, wait a minute, are you going out to shoot this movie? Yeah. And so they made the connection, they ended up sitting next to each other in the plane and she said, they basically wrote their. Sex scene right there, huh? While they were on the plane. So he, he said that a lot, a lot of the people on the casting crew were joking that this is the only reason why, like, he wrote that scene so that he could be Yeah.

Craig: you know, . I would, right. I if he did, I 

Todd: wouldn’t blame him. Writer’s privilege . There’s 

Craig: also, uh, in the, in the credits at the end with the thank yous, uh, there’s a thank you to his wife for allowing him to be in that scene. . Right. Uh, thought that was cute. It was funny. Uh, but, and then it just like, . It’s the big mystery.

And, and I that happened, uh, in the other movie too. It, it is just kind of a series of people getting killed and yeah, this one leans into the mystery more. I don’t even remember how it all happens. Um, but they all think it’s Tom. Mm-hmm. , pretty much everybody does. And I, I don’t know, somehow it comes out that they know that Harry is dead.

Like this didn’t make the news or anything. Yeah. But I, I guess like the town elders or something all got together and got into the minds and found him and killed him and buried him. A and I, maybe if I’m skipping stuff, it, I, it just, all this whole middle part just kind of bleeds together. To me, it really 

Todd: does, because I think we already talked about how it’s just a bunch of drama between them that almost is, doesn’t, it’s not really adding.

Helping us with the mystery at all. It’s just a lot of people running around accusing each other of that axle’s obviously involved and, and he has recovered the tape. 

Craig: Have we said that axle’s the sheriff 

Todd: now? I don’t remember if we said that. Oh yeah, sorry, we didn’t say that. Yeah. Axle’s the sheriff. And so he’s watching that tape as evidence and he sees that, you know, Tom walked by the window and looked in at one point, um, and they’re just all suspicious of Tom and everything like that.

Tom’s been approaching Sarah at the store and they have these walk and talks. Then, I don’t know, like Tom seems to like, just, again, he’s just wandering around and at one point he goes back to the mine, Uhhuh and asked to go down into it, and I was like, why? But he, he has this encounter where he’s in there.

And, uh, suddenly he turned, he, he’s down there with another guy and this other guy has to get on the phone to call up to the surface for some reason or another. And while he’s chatting, suddenly Tom turns around and he gets kicked into a little cage. It’s like a cage with the electrical stuff in it or whatever.

And then, um, the latch, you know, gets closed on that and the killer uses his pickax to bend it so that it won’t easily open up again. And so Tom is helpless inside that cage watching is this guy brutally act pickaxes this other dude. And then when all the other miners come down, they see this dude dead, and then they see Tom in the cage and What did you do?

What did you do? And I’m like, dude, the guy’s clearly, what could he in this case? Yeah, right. What 

Craig: could he have done? ? That doesn’t make sense. Yeah. So yeah, there’s, there’s stuff like that. It it, yeah. Right. Tom, however, Having seen the minor is, is absolutely convinced it’s Harry AXLs still suspicious of him.

And so Axl has Tom at the station and he’s questioning him. And in my notes, I just have pissing contests, like, yeah, . 

Todd: Oh, it’s funny. It’s 

Craig: ridiculous. I mean, they may as well have just grabbed a ruler and pulled their dicks out, like . That’s what this whole scene was. And eventually, I don’t know, it, it’s probably when Tom says, you know, you know, she just settled for you.

Axl punches him. Yeah. . And then that’s the end of that scene. And then , 

Todd: well, other people are saying that Harry Warden came back and so, uh, at some point I, there’s a mini revelation that. Actually the old, uh, sheriff and his lack year, whatever, had said that Harry War had died, had been buried, but actually they didn’t find the body.

But actually it turns out that he did chase Harry warden out of the mine, or they found him as he came up through a different exit in the woods and they took care of him right there and buried his body in the woods. I, I, this sounds so, sounded so convoluted and weird to me. 

Craig: Like it is convoluted and, and it’s then even more convoluted cuz they all go out to the grave like everybody , right?

Like, if they’re suspicious, I, I guess they’re taking Tom out there because they want to prove it to him. But Sarah just tags along now I, I get that she’s, she’s Axel’s wife, but still like, 

Todd: How is that appropriate? Oh, Sarah, Sarah’s always in right where Sarah needs to be. Like, I don’t know why she pops into the hospital as much as she does.

I think she wor no, 

Craig: she doesn’t work there. She works at a grocery store. No. Yeah. Um, at, at one point she’s delivering Valentine’s candy boxes. I didn’t know if that was supposed to be a red herring or what, but I never in did it cross my mind that the killer might be her. That grave. They go and the grave is there, but it’s empty.

Somebody is dug up the body. Then the character of Ben, who I don’t even really know who he is, like one of, is he just one of the old miners? 

Todd: I like, I guess like a leader of the minor’s union or something. I don’t know. He’s in a really nice house though. 

Craig: Yeah, he has a really nice house and he hears something outside.

He goes inside, um, and he walks across his foyer. And this scene was very much like that scene in Exorcist. Yes. Two or three where, you know, like the white. None or whatever, you know, walks into frame just like that. And then he gets hit with the pickax, I think. But he ends up on the ground and I just, I have fci, I poke, is it fci?

Was 

Todd: I right? Yeah, you’re right. He, it’s, it’s like in the full cheese zombie movie where it’s like the eye, he’s got the, he’s got his face down there and is slowly pushing him towards the pickax. Only in, in this case, instead of like slowly pushing him onto it, he ends up stomping his, his head onto it, right?

Craig: Yeah. But there’s the slow, like of course. Like the guy can, yeah, the guy can see this thing coming closer and closer and closer to his eye. Um, and I liked it. And, and then of course, you know, he stomps his head onto it and there’s 3D and blood splatters and it looks, it’s 

Todd: great. It looks fun, but there’s kind of a dumb red herring here too, where he’s on his back and he looks up at this guy who is, by the way, completely clothed in the minor gear with the face mask and everything.

You can’t see a thing. And he goes, Harry, it is. You like, really? How does he know? Oh yeah, you couldn’t see it. Darning, he didn’t take his mask off. Let’s 

Craig: just put it that way. That’s Ben. And then he dies and then they find him. in that grave in the forest, which I, yeah. What 

Todd: did they go back and decide? They needed to double check it or something like that?

It was so weird, and yeah, I don’t know. 

Craig: I have no idea why they went back, but the next scene is really good. The, the Sarah and Megan, the grocery store. Love that 

Todd: scene. That was nice. Megan and Sarah in the grocery store, and they’re kind of having a moment in chatting, which is different. You know, now that you know that Megan is sleeping with Sarah’s husband, but Sarah doesn’t appear to know that they’re, they’re, I don’t 

Craig: know.

It kind of seems like she’s suspicious and, and she even, she says something, To axle later, like, I’m not blind, 

Todd: but they, they’re the only two closing up and the only two people in this entire grocery store where the lights are off. Oh gosh. I was having so many, uh, flashbacks to, what was that movie?

Intruder. Intruders Man. And I was thinking, please don’t do the intruders thinging, where they’re stocking people down like six aisles of a grocery store. . But this, I loved it. This turned out good. . This turned out good. Yeah, it was really good and intense. And these girls were holding their own against this guy.

Yeah. Which is what I liked the most about it. Like we whacking ’em with the mop when somebody else is down and they go into the office and the back and they. Barricade the door. And in the meantime they’re flipping out . Megan is flipping the the hell out and she manages to get a key so that they can unlock the padlock, which is ki it’s kind of like the, the back window has, uh, bars against it that they’ve gotta unlock and it’s real tense.

And he’s breaking through that door and it seems like he’s gonna get through the door. Then of course, by the time Megan gets that window open and starts to go out, you see that the killer’s left the door. Yeah. But this 

Craig: part bothered me. And, and Sarah says that, and she starts trying to pull her back in, but the minor gets her from outside the door.

Nope. Don’t buy that at all. Nope. And he, there’s no way he could have gotten around there that fast. In fact, we see Sarah run out of the, uh, office and we see that she has to run all the way through the store Yes. To the front of the store and out. And then once she was out there, if she were to go around to the alley, she would’ve to run clear around the building.

It took him 10 seconds. Yes, max. And there’s no possible way. The other 

Todd: bit that I found weird about this scene is that as soon as Megan is pulled out and she’s gone, she’s kind of quiet in the room, wondering what to do. She decides she’s gonna go out. She goes up and hits the alarm button. Mm-hmm. , why didn’t you go do this in the first place?

right. She hits the alarm button and she runs through the store, like you said, to the front. And guess who’s there? Is her husband, Axl? How was Axl there? I don’t know. Axl was there because she hit the alarm. Did the cop come that quickly? And also where was his car? Yeah, 

Craig: he was there because they want us to think it’s him.

Yeah, 

Todd: but it’s not plausibly there. That’s why I thought it might be him. I did too. He’s got no car here. He couldn’t have been there that fast and. 

Craig: Uh, if he’s crazy, he would have, well, okay. So anyway, they go back and in the matter of minutes, um, that have passed, the killer has managed to entirely disempower Meg.

Mm-hmm. , um, smear her blood like Yeah. Like three blocks down and write something cute. . Yeah. 

Todd: Be mine forever or something like that. Be mine 

Craig: forever. Oh God. Which is the same thing that she wrote in the Valentine that she gave to him. Secretly. Yeah. And, and, and I was, what I was gonna say before I said that is if he’s psychotic, he would have reason to kill her.

And that, and, and Meg, or not Meg, Sarah says something about him. Everybody’s connected to the mind. Just like 10 years ago, Megan wasn’t,

yes. Maybe the killer was just trying to get to you. Whatcha talking about I’m not flying Axel. So if he were the killer, he would have good reason for killing her, you know, get her out of the 

Todd: way. But he also was making strong efforts to kill his wife. That’s true. That was the only thing that kind of made me think, oh, I mean, if then his motivation, I have no idea why would he be killing his wife?

Because, you know, I, my idea is, well, there’s a jealousy thing going on here. It’s the whole Tom bit. You know, like eventually he, he wants to kill Tom 

Craig: and Well, the next scene then is the minor is in Axle and Sarah’s house. Yes. And. Like I’m thinking, well, he must be going after their kid for some reason, and he kills the babysitter.

With this pick ax, but then I don’t remember what happens. And I don’t remember if there’s, I mean, like, I, I remember the payoff for this scene. It’s another, it’s another throwback to the original. Eventually when they, you know, when the police and every, or I don’t know, axle, whoever it is, comes back, they find, they, they hear the dryer on and it’s thumping.

Um, and so somebody pulls it open and the babysitter’s body like kind of tumbles out and it’s. Burned up and, and disgusting. Yeah. And that same thing happened in the original. In the 

Todd: original it was in a laundromat. It was a giant industrial dryer. Right. This was like a little dryer you’d have at your home.

And I’m like, oh, don’t tell me they’re doing the, the, the dryer gag in this tiny 

Craig: little dryer. Yeah. It’s not gonna burn you up. I mean, you might, you’ll get beat up in there, but your skin’s not gonna melt off. It’s 

Todd: not gonna melt off. And I don’t think you could even fit a person in a dryer like that, but you should try

Give it a shot. We’ll see. , 

Craig: uh, I don’t know. You’re probably too tall. I’ll try, I’ll let you 

Todd: know. Could have fit the, uh, the manager of the motel in a dryer like that. Probably. Definitely. 

Craig: Yeah. Or. Their kid. And that’s what I’m, that’s what, is there any payoff for that? Like it seems like, 

Todd: why did the kids 

Craig: survive?

Well, why, why was the killer there? If not to get 

Todd: the kid? Yes. He was there just to kill the . Didn’t like the, uh, the maid or whatever. I don’t know. But the thing I don’t understand is how did the retired sheriff and a random cop end up at that house? I don’t 

Craig: know. 

Todd: I don’t remember that far. Who would’ve called the cops?

What? Why were they there? I have no idea. All I know is that they pull up in front of that house and they go to the door and they’re instantly drawn their guns. Oh, that’s right. 

Craig: I have in my notes, Burke alerts, the guard that the killer is in the house. And then I have How does he know ? How does he know that?

Yeah. I, and, and, and then I guess, I don’t remember if anything happens to the guard. I don’t know. But like Burke, when he, he finds the sitter in the dryer and then he comes back out on the porch and then he gets his jaw ripped off. That was pretty awesome by the killer. I mean, it looked great, you know, for a 3D effect.

But so many questions.

I don’t really understand the mo, you know, like the killer’s motives. And even knowing now who the killer is, I still am not entirely clear. No , I’m not either, but, Tom calls Sarah and says that he doesn’t think it’s Harry or something. 

Todd: Well, I think Sarah, well, I don’t know. In my notes I say, Sarah calls Tom, but that doesn’t make sense.

Tom must call Sarah and says, yeah, I know who it I, I think I know who it is. It’s not Harry Sarah. It’s not Harry. And, and she’s like, well, who is it? And he’s like, well, I need to show you can do. You trust me? And she’s like, uh, yeah, I trust you. And so he goes to pick her up and then almost immediately Axl calls Sarah on the cell phone, uh, telling her that they just received word that Tom has been in a mental institute for the last several years and she’s talking, you know, from the passenger seat of Tom’s truck cuz they’re speeding away to who knows where.

So now they’re setting up this whole deal where now we’re suspicious of both Axl and Tom and both of them are trying to convince Sarah that it’s the other guy. So that’s sort of the gag that we have now. . Um, and then there’s a crash cuz Sarah freaks out and does what people in movies do, which is a really bad idea, which is Uhhuh

Oh, I’m just gonna grab the wheel and just spin it to try to get you to stop the car. Like, yeah, no, it, it always crashes you if, if not rolls you. It’s a terrible thing to do. Don’t do that. Kids. So she ends up smashing, they smash into a tree. There’s another great 3D effect of the branch going through the window.

And I I, I’m just like, I, if you had a bingo for cheap 3D movie effects, I think this would hit all the spaces on the card. 

Craig: Yeah. Or if you wanna get, if you wanna get really, really drunk, take a drink every time. , there’s one of these 

Todd: effects. That’s true. So then Sarah runs off into the forest and they’re there by the mines again.

And Tom kind of crawls out of the car. It kind of lays down whatever she’s calling Axl. And he says, go to my dad’s old place and hide. Finally, I understand why there’s this boarded up house near the mine. that nobody really seems to know about. I mean, earlier Tom stumbles in there at one point, and this is where Axl has been boning.

Megan secretly. Yeah. , right? Oh my God. He’s not , he doesn’t pick up, you know, like for the fact that apparently there’s just a key hidden in a flower pot outside there so that, you know, Sarah knows about it too, so she can get right in, like you’d think he’d clean up a little bit instead of leaving the chocolates that she gave him and the card that she gave him.

So she, she ends up there first. So she goes inside and she sees the mattress and she sees the chocolates and she sees the card for, you know, the Megan a given Tom, but then she flips open the chocolates and inside there is the picture of her and Tom. Right? So did Tom put that. Thinking she would find 

Craig: it.

I don’t know. There’s also, she also opens a closet and, and the like a stack of like 300 Valentine’s candy boxes fall out. Yeah, like, like this, this person , whoever the killer is, has like stocked up on these boxes. just for such an occasion. , 

Todd: he was planning to do a lot more killing before the movie was over, to be honest.

Craig: Yeah. And so then the minor shows up and she jumps out the window and runs to the mine. Yeah, of course. She ends up, she’s in the mine. I don’t know how she has a gun, but she does, and Axle runs in after her and she pulls the gun on Axle and then Tom runs in and she’s got the gun on both of them. And you know, it’s that classic thing.

It’s not me. It’s not me, it’s him, it’s Tim. But finally axle’s like, well, okay, if you don’t believe me, then I guess just shoot both of us, which I think is supposed to. Make us the audience confident that it’s really not him because he’s really only concerned about her wellbeing. Right. Um, he’s willing to take a bullet just as long as, as she’s okay.

But then Tom says something to Sarah, like, you know, he was Bone and Megan or something. You know, the, the writing above her body was the same as in the Valentine that she wrote him, and she says, how did she know Megan was dead? ? And he’s like, uh, you told me . She’s like, how did you know about the words written on the wall?

At this point, it’s pretty obvious kind of what’s going on, except for that Tom is then like, he looks over her shoulder and he is like, Sarah, turn around. It’s him, Tim, we see the minor coming up behind her, but. Axl and Sarah don’t see him at all. And and Sarah’s saying there’s nothing there. There’s nobody there.

And the minor walks right up to Tom’s face and is standing right in front of him and then just disappears. Mm. Because it was all in Tom’s mind. Mm-hmm. . And then we get, uh, the montage that shows us why Tom hasn’t been in this movie at all, because he’s been very busy digging up graves and pick up people, 

Todd: killing people leading up writing on the wall when blood

It’s funny because. It’s so funny that they took the pains to show us in detail each one of these scenes one by one. Like, no, I get it. Tom’s the killer. I got it. I don’t, yeah, . He’s crazy. I get it. There wasn’t like a big mystery. How did he, was he there? How was he there? No, I was 

Craig: asking myself, you know, when she had the gun pulled on both of them.

I was in my head trying to figure out did we ever see either of these guys with the killer? And we had, we had seen Tom with the killer, um, cuz he fought with him in the mine that one time. Mm-hmm. . Um, but, but that gets explained too. And he had in fact killed that minor and then locked himself in that cage.

Yeah. Seems somewhat implausible. It 

Todd: seems very implausible. . 

Craig: But he did, 

Todd: apparently not, not only that, but it’s a dumb idea What motivated Tom to hatch this plan just so he could kill some random, minor dude. Yeah. I don’t know. And then do it in a way that would cast suspicion on him except. He locked himself in a cage.

It’s just like unnecessary attention to yourself. It doesn’t make 

Craig: still and still his motivations don’t make a lot of sense unless his motivations are just that he’s traumatized. 

Todd: I think that’s, that’s what they’re trying to do, I think. I think they’re just, his motivation is just, he’s traumatized. Cause he’s been popping pills this whole time.

There was a long lingering shot of his traumatized face in the earlier, you know, 10 years ago sequence. I think we’re just supposed to believe he’s snapped and he’s sort of like, I don’t know. Gotta finish what Harry started or something. I don’t know. I, 

Craig: yeah, yeah, it’s weird. So he and Axle fight and Tom gets axle in the gut with the pick ax and then he runs into the mind.

Tom does. And then he like, it’s, it’s so weird because he gets axle with in the gut and then he runs. But then he just comes back. . Yes. , 

Todd: right? He’s taking a 

Craig: breather. Yeah. But he comes back, you know, very slowly. And you know, he’s very scary. He’s like taking out all the lights in the mine. That was cool as he comes.

It was cool. That was a 

Todd: throwback to the original, wasn’t it? I’m pretty sure there was another scene where the killer was coming down the hallway, and as he was doing, he was smashing light bulbs. And, but in this one, like every time he smashes a light bulb, there’s a flash where he himself is like the minor, like it’s, it’s like a visual trick where Uhhuh , he hits the light bulb and there’s a kind of a brief flash as the light bulb goes out.

And for that brief flash, you see a frame of him with the whole minor gear on, and that happens every single ball he hits. It’s kind of cool, kind. Cool. It is cool. I 

Craig: thought that that could be hokey, but it worked for me. Mm-hmm. , I, I liked it. It was a cool effect and they did it just enough. Anyway. Yeah, I really liked that.

But she, uh, Sarah shoots. Tom through the side, but he’s also standing in front of a whole wall of oxygen tanks. Mm-hmm. . And so the bullet, you know, we follow the bullet, we’re looking down the barrel, we follow the bullet, come out, we follow it all the way through Tom’s side. We see it hit the oxygen tank and um, it explodes.

The next thing we see is Tom is laying unconscious, I guess. Mm-hmm. kind of burned up in there and a rescuer comes in and uh, we see Tom grab his pickax and he kills the rescuer. And we cut to outside and somebody says, oh, Tom’s dead. They found his body. And Axl and Sarah leave together. . But then we see one of the guys who’s come out of the mine in like a hazmat suit or whatever, he unzips his hood and it’s Tom.

He’s still alive. 

Todd: Tom should have gotten a little further away before taking his mask off, but, uh, nah, he’s crazy. . It’s still 10 times better than, uh, you know, the ending of the last one where the killer’s skipping off down the hallway. Happy Valentine’s Day. Oh, . 

Craig: Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but in the original Axle was the killer, wasn’t he?

Uh, yeah, you’re 

Todd: right. He was. Yes, but there was no, there was no standoff, like, uh, there wasn’t a lot of mi there was mystery. We still didn’t really quite know who the killer was till towards the end. But there’s a fake out where Axl supposedly died, fell in some water or something, but we never saw it happen.

Ah-huh. . And then, yeah, he pops back out and he ends up being the killer, but, uh, it’s not quite so mellow dramatic as this movie is. But, uh, this movie was just very convoluted. I thought the, they were trying so hard. , you know, Uhhuh, and they captured the spirit of it. And it was very much in that nineties style horror film of the very beautiful young people.

Very slick and crisp lighting and all that stuff. really pretty good cinematography. I mean, I mean, thought it was, it was very confidently made. Very nicely 

Craig: made. And, and one of the things that it has in common with the original is that all those mine scenes were filmed in a mine. That’s right. Which I thought 

Todd: was, which I thought was pretty cool.

I thought it would be cool if they had, going back to the original mine that loved having them so much, but maybe that wasn’t available anymore. . But all in all, for me, uh, I don’t know, I, I, I probably won’t see this again. Yeah. Because I don’t wanna sit through all the drama stuff. But Solid Kittles, really great action, well-made movie very much in that corny nineties style.

And I was thinking about it today too. I was like, you. It’s not any corny or sillier than any other eighties slasher movie we see. Oh no, it’s just corny and silly in that nineties way instead of that eighties way. Uhhuh. . It’s 

Craig: got a different aesthetic. Mm-hmm. , um, a, a different visual aesthetic. So, I don’t know.

It just feels kind of different that, that hokiness plays worse. play it. Yeah. It plays, it plays strange with the photorealism, you know, the, the eighties, you know, the, the film was kind of gritty and, and low grade and, and so, 

Todd: and they feel low budget anyway, those movies, right? Uhhuh, , the acting’s usually very poor.

And the people, you know, might not all be beautiful, whatever. Like it’s not a slick, and so the Hokiness kind of goes with the whole thing, like, yeah, you’re sitting down to watch a dumb low budget cash grab, whereas this movie doesn’t have the production values nor the acting talent of that kind of movie.

Right. But it is still just as hokey . 

Craig: I, I, I really didn’t have any problem with the acting. It was melodramatic, but I think that was the writing in the direction. Yeah. I think that these actors are, are, are entirely competent and good looking people. You know, it’s, it’s always nice if you’re gonna sit and watch, uh, an almost two hour long movie, at least you’ve got pretty people to look at.

Um, honestly, as a popcorn flick, I think it’s great. Yeah, it’s a fun watch. The Kills are gory and fun and there’s lots of them. I think this would be a great date movie. Yes. Uh, especially since it’s Valentine’s. Happy Valentine’s Day. Oh, yes. See what we did there. Wow. Two birds with one stone, just 

Todd: in case you didn’t, you didn’t put two and two together.

Craig: So yeah, I do. I think it’d be fun to, you know, sit down with a date and, and watch this. You could, you could watch it for the kills. I mean, you’re not watching it for the story. No, 

Todd: God, no. Fast forward through that. 

Craig: Yeah. You could even, you know, goof on it if you wanted to. Is it, is it great? Is it amazing? No, the story is actually really silly and contrived and it, it’s not even, it’s so melodramatic as to be eye roll worthy.

Um, but who cares? That’s not why you’re here for it anyway. No. So overall, . If you’re looking for, you know, a movie to watch with your Valentine this year, you could do much worse. Yeah. . Um, if you, if you’ve never seen, especially if you’ve never seen this movie, it’s fun. Um, for one viewing, like you said. I don’t know that I ever need to see it again.

Um, but it’s, it’s worth seeing once. 

Todd: So if you were to recommend either the original or this one to somebody who wants to watch this once for Valentine’s Day, which would you pick? I think 

Craig: the first one is a better movie, but I think that this one might be more fun just because of the blood and violence and, but I do, I think the first one is a better movie.

Yeah, I agree. I don’t know. I don’t know. That’s a tough question. What would you. 

Todd: Boy. I guess it just depends on who I’m talking to, right? Yeah. If I knew, if I knew that person would very much appreciate an older film that, you know, is kind of silly and corny, then I would probably recommend that one to them because I do agree, I think it’s a better movie.

But then, you know, some people just don’t have the patience for that. Or just wanna see something a little more modern with, with actors they recognize and just a little more action packed. Yeah. In which case, this is the one for. I agree. Well, thank you so much for listening to another episode, our second in our series of remakes.

This month we have two more coming your way. Thank you so much for listening to us being Valentine’s Day. This is our time when we just share some love with you guys. We love you, all of our listeners, particularly our patrons who are supporting us, and, uh, who are the ones who came up with the idea of the remake month that we’re doing today.

If you would like to join the ranks of our patrons, just check out our Patreon page at patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

It’s a month of remakes! Our Patrons have spoken, so we bring you the first remake of four: 1988’s remake of the 1958 low-budget Steve McQueen drive-in screamer, The Blob.

Co-written by Frank Darabont and directed by Chuck Russell, lots of familiar faces in this one. Featuring loads of awesome practical effects, not the least of which is Kevin Dillon’s wild and wooly hair. Enjoy!

The Blob (1988)

Episode 333, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guide in a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, this month we had asked our patrons to choose our next theme month, and we whittled it down over two separate polls. I think we had a really long poll. We took it down to the top three and then we asked them again.

And what our patrons wanted us to do for the month of February was re. . You know, actually I think we had done, uh, one year we did sequels, Uhhuh for the month of February being like the second month. And , I’m 

sorry, 

Craig: because cuz we’re clever. Like that 

Todd: back when we were trying to be clever, right? back when we did more theme months.

This is kind of our first theme month in a while, I think know. So, uh, anyway, it was really fun to do it. So we stacked up a whole pile of possibilities. for us to do that are remix. Of course. We’ve done quite a few remakes already on this show. And one question that we did have that we posed to our patrons was there’s remakes and there’s reboots, right?

Uhhuh. , yeah. Does it matter if we do reboots? What’s the difference? Looking at the chatter on our Patreon page, uh, it looks like our patrons decided no, they really want us to do remakes and not reboots. Yeah. Which it’s fine. . Yeah. 

Craig: And no, it’s totally fine. And they’re right. Reboots are different. It’s just these days it’s almost like sometimes you don’t even know.

It’s almost always reboots Well, right. But you don’t even know until you actually are in the seat. You know? Like, uh, the ones, the ones that I mentioned on the patriotic, I mentioned, uh, specifically Candyman, Hellraiser, and Wrong Turn, you know, they, they’re identical and title, I feel like they’re kind of advertised as remakes, but then mm-hmm.

When you actually see them, the ones specifically that I just mentioned seem to exist in the same world as the original, but they’re new stories, so they technically are reboots, but there have been a lot of cool ones coming out. So we may just have to, you know, another month for reboots. Yeah. Because the people 

Todd: have spoken , right?

A remake is when they take the original movie and more or less follow a similar plot line. Of course, they often make changes, right. But more or less tell the same story. And a reboot is usually when they do something drastically different with it. Right? Right. Either a different plot or they’re kind of reimagining the characters or reimagine the scenario or something like, 

Craig: Right.

Right. And, and I don’t know, I’m interested, what are your thoughts on remakes? Cuz I feel like it’s really polarizing. I think people are like fans or they hate them. Well, 

Todd: I think it depends on the movie really. You know, the more iconic and well regarded a movie is, I think the more I think a remake can be.

stupid . Like, you know, why take a really wonderful movie that everybody universally loves and thinks is great, and then try to make it again. But then I also feel like there are films that had promise that for one reason or another, and you know, we talk about this a lot on this show, that there’s some films that really on paper should have been really great, and just due to the circumstances, the money available, maybe the acting talent, the budget, whatever, things just kind of didn’t work.

And we’ve, we’ve even said to ourselves, God, like somebody needs to just take this and remake it. Yeah. With a bigger budget or, or better people behind the camera or in front of the camera. Better special effects, things like that. And so I’d like to leave room for that. You know, even I, maybe even with a film that’s highly regard, I, I think, I still think sometimes there can be room for remix.

I think I’m a little liberal on that, although I do roll my eyes at some of my favorite movies being remade. I know, honestly. So maybe I’m a bit hypocritical. . 

Craig: Well, no, I, I think you feel pretty much the same way I do. There are some movies that we just have kind of such an emotional connection to that it just feels like a sacrilege to touch it.

I kind of felt that way about Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory like that. Oh God, yes. That movie was so, the original with Gene Wilder was so amazing and such a big part of my childhood. And then, you know, just objectively, the Johnny Depp one is garbage . It really is. 

Todd: Oh my God, it’s 

Craig: so garbage. It’s just a hot mess.

So there are ones like that that, you know, I say leave it alone, but you know, again, that’s. I’m not being, uh, fair or objective. Generally I’m of the opinion, you know, go ahead and remake it. The original is still there. You know, it’s not like, yeah, you’re erasing the original by remaking it. If I like to remake, great.

If I don’t, whatever, the original’s still there. And every once in a while, even iconic movies that I would say, ah, don’t remake that, then they get remade and I’m impressed, like off the top of my head. King Kong, the Peter Jackson one is the one I’m talking about. Oh, right, right. The original from the what, thirties or whatever is, is great.

And I love it for what it is. But Peter Jackson’s King Kong, I just thought was kind of a masterpiece. Like I, it’s a, it’s a movie about a giant gorilla and at the end of that movie, I am weeping, like , like I am an emotional wreck at the end of that movie. Movie. Right. So, you know, they can be good and they can also be awful.

When I heard that they were doing A Nightmare on Elm Street remake. Uh, first of all, Robert England is still alive. Just wait, like, just hold off a minute. Right, . But I don’t know. I was willing to give it a chance and I did, but it was terrible and I hated it. And I just prefer to think that it doesn’t exist.

But I have every, you know, I can do that. I can just pretend it doesn’t exist and that’s fine. The original’s still there, so, you know, I don’t, some of ’em are good, some of ’em aren’t just like any movie, I guess. So I don’t really have strong opinions one way or the 

Todd: other. Well, when the remake is really poor, then it just serves to point a more glowing finger towards, you know, the original and kind of show you why it’s so great.

Maybe get a, be better appreciation for the magic of the original when you see how difficult it is to actually remake it in a quality way. Right. 

Craig: Well, and I think that a part of, you know, the objective, well, a big part of the objective behind remakes is profit. You know, they want to cash in on a already familiar name.

Um, but I also think that it’s about introducing. Films and stories to new generations, which I do understand and appreciate. We, we’ve talked about this before too, how it kind of makes us sad that young people won’t experience or appreciate some of our fav favorite movies just because in their eyes they’re old.

Yeah. And I get that, and I get wanting to bring those stories to new generations. I, I still, nostalgia makes me sad and, and want them to just enjoy the originals. But, um, I, I, I think that sometimes it works because the movie that we chose for this week, I don’t think that I would’ve ever watched the original had it not been for this remake.

And I’m ultimately happy to have seen both. I like them both. Yeah. I 

Todd: this I think time Right, has something to do with it. Like, I think that a movie from the eighties, particular movies from the eighties, you know, putting aside like fashion choices and some music choices and things like that, They don’t feel as dated.

Even watching them today, you know, the gap is a little narrower than say, remaking King Kong, you know? Sure. Black and white movie. Very, very different time. Very, very different. Aesthetic. Special effects. Oh yeah. Even very different filmmaking aesthetic, really. And so to remake a movie, like even this one from the fifties, I think, what was the last, what was the last movie that we saw where I felt similarly?

the original, although a good movie, I, I really enjoyed the Blob. I used to watch it growing up. Actually. That’s what we’re doing by the way. . Oh, sorry, , we forgot to mention it. Alright. Yeah, it’s nine. It’s, it’s a 1988 remake of the 1958 film. The Blob and this, this was actually the 1958 version, was Steve McQueen’s very first, uh, role.

And it’s so funny cuz he’s playing a teenager, but the guy’s obviously . Oh yeah. Obviously not a teenager. Right. He looks older than some of the teenagers in, in the Friday the 13th movies, we watched , but it’s, he’s charming. Um, anyway, I grew up with this movie. I probably watched it three or four times. My dad had it on vhs.

It was exactly the kind of movie he’d have on vhs, the original You’re talking about the original? Yeah, it’s. Kind of goofy, silly, fun. Uhhuh , very much a product of its time. Very dated and like a lot of these 50’s style low budget, sci-fi horror movies or whatever. They were aimed for the drive-in circuit, mostly for teenagers.

They had those elements in there. Like this is like if you watched the trailer for this movie, they’re like the drag racing and the making out teens and you know, stuff like that. And then of course they’re running and screaming from the blob in the theater. There’s not a lot of blob. There’s a lot of talking that happens.

Yeah. to fill out the time . Yeah. I think just a few weeks ago we, we did something similarly where there was an older movie that, uh, we had done the remake of and I was like, yeah, don’t bother to go back and watch the original. Cuz it’s, it’s mostly talking and philosophy of science and stuff. Knowledge of 

Craig: the damned, yeah.

Yeah. That was it. Yeah. It, it’s funny though because I couldn’t remember if I had seen the original or not. Uh, so I watched it again this week and I think that I had seen it, but a long time ago. But I just thought, I just thought it was so charming. Like it was so, it was so cute and quaint. I just really enjoyed it.

They could have cut it down to about a half an hour I think. . Yeah, 

Todd: because two a half an hour or by half an hour, either . 

Craig: Cause there is a lot of like unimportant talking. Like there’s, there’s a main boy and a girl who, you know, are up against the blob or whatever. But then there’ll be 10 minute scenes of them just talking to other teenagers.

Yes.

It doesn’t advance the plot at all. It’s almost like, you know, drive-in fair. Like, okay, go get a snack. You’ve got 10 minutes, you got 

Todd: time . Yeah. Something before you see a blob on the screen again. But 

Craig: I did, I did think that it was really cute. Uh, I actually really enjoyed it. In fact, you know, I, I, I like this one too.

I, I like this remake. I think it’s got a lot going for it. And in many ways, especially from a 2023 perspective, this is kind of quaint also. Mm. 

Todd: In some ways 

Craig: as I was watching it, but yeah, in some ways. But like, as I w it also is clearly a throwback to this era and this style of movies like, you know, these fifties, sixties, um, bee movies.

It’s definitely a throwback to that. Yeah. And it’s kind of got that kind of charm. Um, but as I was watching it, I, I was thinking, um, I feel like it could be good. Kids based on the story. Yeah. But unlike the, uh, 1950s one, there are some really, really cool and good special effects, uh, in, in this remake that potentially could be disturbing to kids.

Like you would have to decide if your kids are sensitive to that kind of thing. Cuz there, there are some really cool gross blob kill effects in this movie, which 

Todd: I really liked. Oh, it’s a, it’s really great. You know, the original doesn’t. Any of that in it really. It’s kind of just a big gelatinous glob and, uh, Uhhuh

This movie takes it and goes, all right, now let’s, let’s really go for it. You know, let’s, let’s show this blob wreaking havoc on people and what it does to people and how it dissolves them. I think, um, the way that they conceptualized it was, was an inside out vampire stomach . Yeah. He said, where it just like this, this big thing that kind of has acid in it as well.

So as soon as it starts touching you, it starts dissolving you. And uh, I think that’s cool. It’s not far off actually from the, what the original filmmakers, uh, of the original, it said, you know, I think the original’s kind of interesting cuz you had said this is a cool concept, right? Yeah. And it is. And like you said, it’s good gateway horror because it’s, it’s very simple, but, uh, it’s also a bit different, especially for the time the original was made by a company that did religious movies.

Called Valley Forge Films. And, uh, you know, one of the producers who helped this, most, these guy, these people, mostly like a congregation or so, you know, they just wanted to spread the word, and they did a lot of spreading the word, but they were kind of starving. And he said, they said for it. And so this Methodist minister, uh, named, uh, Irvin Yay Worth came up with this idea, uh, for the blob.

And the reason that he came up with it apparently was because he had, there had just been, and I had never heard of this before, but there had just been a newspaper report of some guys in Pennsylvania that had discovered, uh, something called star jelly. Do you know about this? No. All right. So I looked this up and I got down some rabbit holes on Star Jelly

But apparently, apparently this has been referenced since like the 14th century in literature, this idea that shooting stars or meteorites after they’re seen, like the next morning you’ll find gelatin type stuff on the ground. It’s this kind of phenomenon that people report finding and there’s a number of scientific explanations for it.

It’s basically, obviously people aren’t finding, there’s no correlation between any jelly you’re gonna find on the ground, any meteor in the sky, . But like when you’re not walking in the morning, you might find like, uh, this stuff that frogs puke up or like special fungus is that end up kind of gelatinous and whatever.

And this report anyway in Pennsylvania is apparently a few guys in the woods found this very large disc of this jelly and they thought it was extraterrestrial from a U F O and they went and they picked it up and it kind of just fell apart and more or less dissolved as they were handling it. And so he took this idea like, why don’t we just do this?

Because he was very uninterested in a guy working around in a suit or some kind of monster walking around that everybody kind of seen before. Some humanoid creature. . And so I don’t think this had really been done before in film. Um, I thought it was kind of a nice original concept and yeah, it made them a ton of money.

Like the budget for the original was $110,000. Um, paramount bought it for like 300,000, put another 300,000 into it for, um, promotion. They showed it as a double feature in drive-ins. It was strict drive-in fair. It was like the second on a double bill, Uhhuh . And, uh, it, it made 4 million bucks. Yeah. So they flipped it and made it the, the top bill.

Yeah. And to this day, like, uh, you know, it, it, it was considered to have been wildly successful. There’s even. A blob fest. Yeah. Every year. Did you, could you read about that ? 

Craig: I did. It’s like, it’s in the town that they felt like it’s in the town that they filmed it in, 

Todd: right? Mm-hmm. the original. Yeah, it the Colonial Theater.

The, the movie theater. Because the, one of the most iconic things of that movie, which, which the remake does do as well, is Uhhuh when the blob just like takes over the projection booth and then just starts growing and oozing out of the booth over all of the patrons in the theater, which you have to imagine was something that they threw in there to kind of get the theater patrons who are watching the movie kind of freaked out out.

Oh, sure, sure. . Yeah. and, uh, and yeah, and then that, that theater is still there in that town where they shot it. And so they try to capitalize on it and try to preserve this historic theater by raising money and through this blob Fest every year. It’s been going on for like 23 years or so. So think about.

that movie still has fans and, and this one too. Crazy, right? . It’s 

Craig: crazy that that scene from the 1950s movie of everybody running out of the theater, I feel like that’s iconic. Like whether or not, you know, it comes from the blob. I bet you’ve seen it. Oh, the 

Todd: clip. Yeah. For sure. Mm-hmm. , I 

Craig: have questions about star jelly.

Like, are you suggesting that like, frogs see comets in barf? kidding? No. 

Todd: And people find it ? No. It’s just that people f find stuff and, and okay. For some reason it’s, there’s been this romanticized notion that if a meteor or a comet passing by will lead to star jelly on the ground. Sure. And so people walk around and they find this, this stuff, frog bar , like di digested frog spawn vomited by predators.

Yes. 

Craig: Oh, that’s fantastic. 

Todd: Maybe stuff vomited up by birds or animals. Why, why 

Craig: haven’t we seen this 

Todd: movie? I know, right? like, come on, 

Craig: we’re sitting on a, we’re sitting on a gold mine here. . 

Todd: There’s some type of fresh water, uh, bluegreen, algae, like called nasik. When it’s on the ground, it’s ordinarily not seen, but after rainfall, it like swells up and becomes this very conspicuous, kind of like greenish whiteish, gelatinous mass that people, you know, will often call star jelly.

So it’s, it’s a term. It’s crazy. Yeah. , I think, 

Craig: oh man. Where was Star Jelly when we were naming this podcast? I mean, right. 

Todd: Two Guys and Some Star Jelly. Such a, it’s a 

Craig: great name. Uh, yeah. But yeah, so, so this movie , um, I, like I said, I watched the original just a day or two before I watched this one, so I was excited to watch it.

And when the, uh, opening credits started, first of all, the production company, I guess was Tristar. And Tristar has that great intro with the Pegasus that runs towards you. Yeah. On the screen. Tristar was so cool in the day, like it was, you know, if you saw that Pegasus. You were in for a good movie. You were in for a treat.

Yeah, . Um, but, and, and like there’s the, this cool, creepy opening, but I have to admit that I missed the blob theme song from the original. Yes. I think that was maybe my favorite part of the original. That was the best

Beware of the blob. It creeps and leaps and, and slides across the, and all around the wall. A a be careful the 

Todd: blob 

Craig: beware of the blob creeps and leaps. And

it is so good. It was really catchy and like, I guess it was a, a hit, and I’m not surprised. It was a, 

Todd: Bob reached like 33 on the billboard charts that year, 1958. Can you imagine? Oh, and it was written by Burt Bacca Rock. Oh yeah, just kind of nuts. . It’s hilarious. 

Craig: It’s great. So then we get like a flyover of a small town in the middle of nowhere.

Like it almost looks like this is out of a fairy tale or something because it pans in over like this, I don’t know, wooded landscape. And then just in the middle of nowhere there’s just this little town. Mm-hmm. and I and, and then it kind of goes all through the town. It looks like it’s deserted, so you’re wondering what’s going on.

Todd: I thought it was totally deserted, but everyone’s just at the football game. , Uhhuh, . That’s kind of a cool fake 

Craig: out. Well, and I was just gonna say, I noticed in the opening credits that the screenplay, uh, was written in part, uh, by Frank Dban, which I didn’t know going in. And he has. Good, good movies. 

Todd: Oh yeah, he, this is one of his earliest, uh, I think he wrote the, obviously this came before Shawshank, yeah, before the Green Mile, before he got so involved in the Walking Dead franchise.

Almost everything this guy’s written has, has been good. And in this film are some people who end up popping up in some of his later films. But yeah, I did like the Mist and all that. Love Frank Dand. Good. I think he’s a brilliant writer. Yeah, he’s good. And, and they put a lot of callbacks to them original in this mm-hmm.

They also made it very tongue in cheek in a way. I mean, they’re just, Goofy, funny. There’s a bit of black comedy in here. It’s just fun. I mean, I didn’t want to jump the gun here, but like, I just really enjoyed watching this movie. I just thought it was just fun to sit through from beginning to end. It’s just got a ton of action and, and, uh, it, it doesn’t take itself seriously.

Right. But it’s got some great gore, amazing special effects and yeah, you know, some si but, but silliness in there as well. So 

Craig: yeah, I , I a hundred percent agree. It was, uh, fun to sit through and especially if you are familiar with the original, the callbacks are really fun. Like, for example, the first guy to find the blob is an old man.

Uh, and in the original he’s an old man who like lives in a shack in the woods or something. Yeah. With a dog . And it it, right. And that cute dog. I love that dog. Uh, and then, In this one, he seems like an old vagrant or something, but an old man still. And the way that the blob arrives is it arrives like in this meteor that everybody sees, and the old man, uh, goes and he finds it and like, I don’t know, taps it with a stick or something.

And, uh, it opens up and this, you know, blob little tiny white blob thing comes out on the stick. But this scene is like almost shot for shot. Identical. Yes. Uh, from the original. And, and I really enjoyed that. It was fun. But they also paid tribute to the original, but also, Surprise you? Um, yes. Like, like they, like, they set things up, like they’re going to be just like the original, but then they surprise you.

Like in, in the original you mentioned that it was Steve McQueen, uh, his first movie, and, and he’s the hero. He’s very much like the, the jock who’s protecting, you know, the wilting flower of his girlfriend or whatever. Um, and, and they set up that. Here we’ve got two young teenagers. Paul, in my notes I said, Paul is a douchey football player,

Um, and then, uh, Meg, his girlfriend. played by Shawnee Smith, who I have always liked. I I, Shawnee Smith has never been a huge star. Um, but I feel like she’s been around my whole life. Mm-hmm. , uh, I think that the first thing that I remember her from was the movie Summer School. Do you remember that movie? Oh, vaguely.

Oh. It was a great movie and horror adjacent because two of the kids in summer school were like super into like special effects and makeup and so they made all these horror effects and stuff. Great movie. And then she also, uh, was a big part of the Saw franchise, which I know her Yes. A fan of. Yeah. And here she’s a little tiny baby.

Todd: Yeah. She’s so cute, right? Like, she looks like about five other actresses about this time. Yeah, kinda like she does, she does kind of a young, um, I don’t know, take your pick of the eighties actresses. I, maybe they all just had the same hair and makeup, but, uh, and she 

Craig: does, I mean, she’s got the long, like, teased out hair.

I mean, it’s very eighties . Um, she, she’s great. She’s very charming. I, I really like Shawnee Smith. I’m a big, big fan, but she’s, okay. So there’s the couple, like the, you know, the football player and, and the cheerleader. And so you expect that it’s gonna kind of follow the same course as the original, which it kind of does.

But Paul ends up being one of the very first victims, which that’s surprise. Yeah, it shocked me too. I’ve seen this movie before and I was still 

Todd: surprised. , right. It, it it, I mean, it’s, it’s not just different from the blob. It’s, it’s really kind of subverts your expectations for any horror movie ever.

Uhhuh , there’s always that. That’s the nice, because he’s, he’s jockey, but he’s, and he’s a little douchey, but he’s got Doucher friends. I mean, yeah. Yeah, definitely. He, he’s ultimately kind of a nice guy. There’s actually fun, kind of a setup in early when he’s out with his more douchey guy. Was it? Steve or whatever, I don’t know.

And I don’t know, we’ll just call him Steve. And he’s, uh, whatever. It’s all Steve, Brian, Paul, Jim, John, like the old movie’s full of it, . And he’s going, uh, into a, it’s, it’s, it’s an old gag, right? But he’s going to a pharmacy to buy condoms and then he runs in to the minister who happens to be there. And so be in the presence of the minister.

Uh, as he’s buying the condoms, he basically tries to make it out. Like Paul is the one buying the condoms cuz he’s got this date coming up, which is true. Paul does have a DA also has a date coming up. And uh, the guy behind the counter basically says, well, he doesn’t need a condoms, that boy needs a muzzle.

It’s disgusting, you know, and then it turns out, That the guy behind the counter is Meg’s dad. . So Paul up. Yeah. We 

Craig: find that out later, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it’s a funny gag. . It’s, 

Todd: it’s, it’s his oldest dirt, but it’s cute. Right? And the dude behind the counter is played by, um, art LaFleur. Yeah. He’s been in a billion things.

I 

Craig: know. He was so familiar to me. I’m sitting here trying to pull up his page. My computer is so slow. , what? What do I know him from? I know he’s been in so many, he was so familiar. 

Oh, 

Todd: field of Dreams. The Sandlot 

Craig: that Sand the Sandlot. That’s the one he played. What like, uh, Babe Ruth, right? Or something like that.

Yeah, he 

Todd: was, yeah, he was the babe in the Sandlot? Yeah. Mm-hmm. , yeah. Oh, just all over TV and movies. Like, uh, actually he died in 2021. I, I kind of thought he was still alive, but, uh Oh, I didn’t know that. Yeah. No, this guy, uh, this guy’s is, is very recognizable. They’re quite a few people in here actually who are very recognizable.

Craig: Yeah. The guy who plays the, uh, deputy, I really liked him. Uh, the, that’s, that’s, that’s another mislead from the original. In the original there’s this, you know, like sheriff for main cop or whatever, and he ends up being a really pivotal character, and he’s another one of the ones that is first to die in this, um mm-hmm.

And, but he’s got this, uh, deputy and I don’t, uh, I don’t remember what his name was. Jeffrey 

Todd: Deun. Jeffrey Dund is the name of the actor. Is that, well, that, that, 

Craig: that was the sheriff. 

Todd: Oh, sorry. The deputy you’re talking about the redhead? 

Craig: Yeah. His, uh, name, his name in the movie is, uh, bill, but Paul McCrae is Yes, the actor.

And I recognized him, I’m sure he’s been in a lot, but I recognized him, uh, from er, I actually thought that he was kind of a hilarious character on er because he was this dude, he was like this asshole doctor that nobody really liked. And then there was like a helicopter accident at the hospital and it chopped off one of his arms.

And then, and then a couple of seasons later, there, uh, a helicopter crash landed on top of him and he died. Like, that’s such a funny storyline. 

Todd: Wow. It’s like a soap opera. I 

Craig: loved that storyline. I remember the, when the second helicopter. Crashed on top of him. I remember the shot, like it’s a camera, like looking down at him from the helicopter’s perspective.

And of course this is network television, so I’m, I don’t remember exactly what he said, but it was basically like, are you fucking kidding me? And that was hilarious . So good job. Deputy Bill , 

Todd: nice work. He. He had a fairly prominent role in Robocop, but, um, he, he was also guard trout in Shawshank Redemption.

Oh, okay. Yeah. And, and just like Jeffrey Deun, who plays the, uh, sheriff, uh, in this movie also had a big role in Shawshank as well. That’s right. Um, and then went on to play, uh, Dale in the Walking Dead. So, you know, obviously these guys had a bit of, or Frank De Bond anyway, really liked these actors and pulled them along for a number of his projects.

I think. Um, Damman was also in the Green Mile, so, uh, 

Craig: yes, yes. He was, he was one of the guards, gosh. Mm-hmm. . I had forgotten that I recognized them, but I hadn’t paid attention. Yeah. And, and that’s, there are good actors, uh, in this movie. Mm-hmm. , um, and, and acting Well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s a silly movie. It’s a, and it’s campy, but everybody does a good job.

I mean, overall it’s a good movie. It’s shot. Well, uh, I, I really feel like this, the special effects are I. What you want to talk about, I guess. Yeah. 

Todd: Um, the special effects are insanely good. They pull up today, they’re great, they’re unbelievably good. 

Craig: S well, they hold up today. The blob like eating or dissolving or whatever you wanna call it, people that looks fantastic.

Other parts of it, like when the blob is great big and it’s like coming down the street and stuff, it looks hokey and I’m so glad that it does. Like, that’s , that’s what I want it to look 

Todd: like. It’s supposed 

Craig: to look that way. Yeah, right. It looks like an old monster movie. It, look, when you watch those old Godzilla movies that I know you’re a huge fan of.

You know, it’s a guy in a suit, it looks like a guy in a suit and it that, that’s kind of what you’re there for. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. . Um, and same, same thing here, like yeah, it looks like they’re using models and, and toy cars and stop motion and I love it. . Yes, I think it looks 

Todd: great. It does. It looks great.

And honestly like, unless you’re looking at it really closely, some of these shots are quite quick and you might not even notice that it’s a model car. But you know, I’m always looking very intently at this stuff. . The bl the blob. And actually it took me, I was so impressed with how they did the blob effects where, you know, it’s crawling over people and dissolving people that, I went down a couple rabbit holes, I saw some interviews with some of the guys, how they did it.

I was like, how in the world did they do this? Because it’s just this amorphous mass and it’s veiny, it’s sort of like multi-layered. It has what looked like little bits and pieces of the people that it’s dissolved in there. And apparently what they did is they had made these giant silk quilts, essentially these quilts made out of silk, you know, and you know, what a quilt where, you know, you kind of sew pockets, you know?

Yeah. And then they had a team of, like , one guy said they called him the blob rankers, but they were probably maybe even a hundred people who, uh, just all they did was fill each of these pockets in that quilt with this. Well, I can’t remember what they call it, but this kind of methyl cellulose, it’s, uh, kind of, uh, used to thicken up milkshakes actually.

Yeah, does methyl cellulose dye, different shades of red and purple and stuff. And then they had a whole bunch of these blankets, and of course the methyl cellulose would start to seep through the silk so that it, you know, it was kind of covered in this. And so you couldn’t tell that these were blankets or whatever at all.

Uh, So they would just kinda layer these kind of over each other, have puppeteers under them. They said it, they weighed like 200 pounds cuz you know, oh, it’s just filled with this crap. And then the puppeteers had mittens on that were sort of like big and blobby too, so that, you know, their fingers aren’t poking through this and they’d just be under there, like moving it around and, and doing the stuff.

Some of these scenes were very elaborate and you can find some great behind the scenes shots online of, uh, of some of the better ones. Um, there’s a scene where this woman gets, gets crushed in his phone booth. That is unbelievable. 

Craig: Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. And it’s such a cool effect and it made me sad because it’s not sad, but it’s so fast.

Yes. Like I, I wanted to pause it frame by frame cuz it happens so quickly, but it looks so 

Todd: cool. And the blob at one point gets down into the sewer. So, so the blob, you know, this guy’s got the blob on his hand. The old guy. Yeah. And there’s the bad boy, the bad boy’s name. Dylan, 

Craig: Kevin Dillon. That’s hilarious.

Kevin Dillon looks like he’s like the most badass. Longhaired, 15 year old you’ve ever met. . He’s 

Todd: got this, his huge curly mullet down 

the, 

Craig: it’s a wig. He and Shawnee Smith were both wearing wigs, . Oh, it’s so eighties. And he wears a leather jacket and he rides motorcycles. Oh, Uhhuh. . It’s Ke and it’s Kevin 

Todd: Dillon.

Oh, . The minute his first shot, you know, he’s the bad guy because he’s the eighties bad guy. He’s smoking, dumps a beer on the ground that he just finished drinking. He’s got the leather jacket, the long hair, and drives the motorcycle. You, you basically checked all the boxes for the bad boy. Hilarious. 

Craig: Yeah.

He’s so funny. And you know, like, you know that he, even though you don’t yet know that Paul is gonna get eaten by the blob right away, you just know that. Brian and Meg are destined to be together. Stupid. Paul . 

Todd: Paul never had a chance. . 

Craig: No, he never had a chance. I love it. So Brian, Kevin, Dylan is just kind of chasing this old man.

I don’t even really understand why. Like did he also happen to see the meteor or he saw that the old man was struggling? I don’t 

Todd: know. I 

Craig: don’t remember. But all the kids end up together taking the old man to the hospital and they do. And there’s a hilarious scene where the nurses totally ignoring them and then just asks about insurance.

And I don’t know why that was so funny to me. Like I laughed out loud when she was like, now how may I help you? We’ve had a car accident. This guy needs to see a doctor. He has something on his hand too. Some kind of acid or something. , does he have Blue Cross? I don’t know. Medical insurance of any kind.

Like . I have not died. Oh God. So funny. But then, uh, like nobody will see the old man or whatever. Uh, no doctor, cuz there’s only one doctor in the whole hospital and he’s very busy talking to some woman in his office. . 

Todd: Uh, so this is the shittiest hospital in the world, by the way. This is terrible. One doctor, one nurse.

Nobody cares about anything. They’re, they seem bothered by this. The, the nurse 

Craig: is a total bitch. Yeah. . . 

Todd: Paul sees through the window, uh, into hi this old man’s room that there’s odd movement underneath his, under his blanket. I loved that. Oh God, it was so good. And when he walked, it’s so creepy 

Craig: Right towards him.

Well, right. I mean, even just the movement under the blanket, like, cuz you know what’s going on, but, oh, yeah. Because you can’t see anything. It’s super spooky. And yeah, that’s one of the things that I actually like better about this remake than the original, is that they did more, you know, in the original, it’s really just kind of a blob that 

Todd: slithers around penises a little bit.

Craig: Yeah. Kind of like jumps on you sometimes, 

Todd: you know, 

Craig: walk fast. You’ll probably be, 

Todd: you’re gonna be fine, right? . 

Craig: But in this one it’s really creepy and it, it, on more than one occasion, it like, gets inside somebody’s body. Oh yeah. And, and you can see it moving around under the skin and like making the body move.

And that happens here. Like it, first of all, it totally dissolves the whole like from the waist down. The old man, oh god, it so gross. Yes. Um, but also it’s like under his skin and his face, and you can see it under his cheeks and his eyes are all white and, uh, super, super creepy and that it happens again later and the effects are great.

One of the things that I, I, I think it’s a happy accident, you know, you, you said that they decided, okay, so this is like an inside out stomach, so it’s acidic and it dissolves everything. That’s kind of the only thing that they could come to an agreement on. Like even while the movie was being made, they really weren’t entirely clear Yes.

On what the rules for the blob were. Like, there are no rules for this blob. No. What is it? What can it do? Um, and I like that because it’s different in different scenarios. Like sometimes it’s just this, you know, like melting jello that can come under doors and stuff, but sometimes it’s fully active, almost like the thing Oh yeah.

Um, can shoot out, shoot out tentacles and, and, and form itself into like a big gaping mouth. It does all of this. And, and they had considered using cgi, but ultimately decided that the technology wasn’t advanced enough yet, which they were probably right. Oh, yeah. Um, and so, uh, they ended up doing it all practical, and it looks practical and it’s so good.

Like, honestly, if, uh, if you’re a fan of horror, and especially if you’re a fan of, uh, practical effects, you have to watch this. , it’s an assignment and it’s not extra 

Todd: credit. , you must and write a, write a 10 page report and, and post it to us

Craig: Uh, but yeah, the effects are so good. And so then like right after it kills the old man, um, what’s his name? Paul runs to call the police. He gets on the phone and you’re looking at him and the door that he just came through is open and it slowly starts to swing clothes behind him. And you see that the blob, which is great big now, is uh, on the wall behind him.

Um, and then as he’s talking on the phone, stuff starts dripping on the desk and it’s like eating away at the desk like it’s acidic. And at the very end of his phone call, he looks up and there’s the blob up there on the thing, and it drops down on him and he screams. And when Meg hears him screaming, she runs in there.

And this is like the box art. Oh, like, like the blob like com, he’s completely covered by it. And it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s almost like the blob is pulling his face back and, and pulling his skull scalp back as it’s, uh, dissolving him and he’s screaming and still moving. And, and I read that, you know, like sometimes this was a, a, like a dummy, but some of the time it was really him under.

that gelatinous, whatever it was. And I, and I guess that for the actor, it was pretty miserable. Like he couldn’t breathe under there, obviously. Yeah. So anytime that was on his face, he was basically suffocating. But it looks so good, . 

Todd: And it’s even, you know, there’s just a bit of comedy there too. Like, he’s reaching out to her and she grabs his hands and as it’s the blob is kind of pulling him away from her, suddenly his arm comes off.

Yeah. She flies backwards with his arm. Oh, it’s so good. . And it’s gross. Yeah. And it looks very convincing and disgusting. And it’s funny, you know, it’s just, yeah. The notion of, it’s hilarious, but it is gross. 

Craig: That’s why I’m saying like, in many ways it feels very kid friendly. But these effects are, are gruesome.

Yes. Um, I mean these, these people are being, Digested, basically. Uh, and, and you can see it. So their skin is melting away and becoming really sal and like pulling away from their bones and stuff. And like, uh, you know, the blob just keeps going around and it gets bigger and bigger. And they had consider in the original movie, the Blob is pink.

In this movie, they considered changing it to green. I don’t know why I love the pink. They decided to stick with the pink because when it first comes out of the comet, it’s clear, it just kinda looks like Vaseline or something. Um, but it, as it absorbs people, it becomes pink because of the blood, which makes sense.

And yeah, I love it, but it keeps getting, uh, bigger and bigger. . One thing, the only thing that I didn’t understand about the movie is this. It’s in the hospital, but then the next people in attacks are out of town. Yeah, , like, I think like, uh, like a, like lover’s bluff or whatever. Oh God. And, and, and I really like this scene.

I really do like the scene, but like the blob came all the way from the hospital, way the hell out there . And then after it kills them, it’s like, oh no, it’s getting in the sewer and going to town. Like it was already in town. I don’t , that’s the only part I don’t understand. But it’s okay cuz I love. 

Todd: Scene

My interpretation is that there’s still a little bit of the blob back at the meteor that’s kind of like slinking around somewhere out in the woods. I could be, well this the douchey guy, like we are calling him Steve, right? He’s got a g a girl parked and I also did a double take care that the girl he is got parked as Erica aac, 

Craig: she was familiar, but I didn’t look her 

Todd: up.

What was she in One of her very first film roles? She was o on Baywatch. Um, I remember her as the girl from Under Siege. Okay. I had a bit of a crush on her in the, in the early nineties actually. So, . Yeah. She posts for Playboy and all that. That might add something to do with it. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, she’s in the back, you know, and there’s his typical make out and he gets out of the car to go to the back of the trunk.

Oh. He’s like, oh, but he’s pushing her to have sex. Right? Right. He’s like, oh, you know, you’re wearing my ring and all that, you know, you’re my girl. He goes, you want another, you want something else to drink? She’s like, yeah. He goes to the truck, opens it up. He has a whole mini bar back there that was hilarious.

With mixers and stuff. He, I mean, he pours a half a cup full of granite eat. I don’t know how good this drink’s gonna be, but splashes little vodka there and then pulls out like a hand mixer and mixes it up. . Oh 

Craig: my God. That was so funny. And the, the other thing that I loved about this scene is meanwhile, We’re getting POV shots from the blob.

Yeah. coming through the tall grass. Yes. And I feel like that happens maybe one or two more times, but that’s great. It, it was so, it was so funny and like not only do you see it like coming through the grass towards the car, but then you see it kind of going up into, cuz he left his door open. Mm-hmm.

funny. Then he goes back in and again, this dates the movie because I don’t think anybody would do this. Uh, not, they wouldn’t film this today. Um, but he gets in and he thinks that she’s passed out drunk and so he’s going to take advantage 

Todd: of her while he’s talking to himself. Yeah. 

Craig: Talking to himself. No, it’s so, and it’s so long.

It’s How does his dog out there tonight? Vicky? It’s uh, it’s a nice blouse.

nice material. Must be hot though, huh? Yeah, I, I’ll just do one of these for you. Ah, it’s better, huh? Oh, no. Oh, well, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll do another one then.

Okay.

Oh. Energy one, 

Todd: like, come on. It’s, it’s really belabored,

Craig: It’s disgusting and hilarious. And then he, like, he goes to Kapa feel, and I’m typing the notes before it even happens. You know what’s gonna ha Like he goes to Kapa feel, and of course the blob grabs him and then her body is like in, you know, completely obsessed. The blob is inside it and it, it turns towards him.

And then like implodes her 

Todd: face, caves in it’s crazy. looks great, it looks 

Craig: great, it looks 

Todd: wonderful. And that’s when like tentacles come out of her face and stuff and wrap around. Yeah. Looks like. . 

Craig: Yeah, it can totally do a tentacle thing. Yeah. Yeah. , 

Todd: he got what was coming to him and then, I don’t know, 

Craig: like there’s a whole lot more plot.

Like the blob goes back to town, it comes to the restaurant, they’re in the diner, everybody knows and like it sucks a guy into a pipe and . Well, 

Todd: the best part, you can’t just, you can’t just brush over that pipe. One though. That was shocking. . I love it. And you know it’s coming from a mile away. Uhhuh. . That’s the great thing about the movie is that it sets it up so deliciously, so you’re just full of anticipation.

What’s gonna happen to this guy ? The dishwashing sink in the back of this diner is clogged and so the owner gal walks out while the last guy there, you know, finishing up washing the dishes, has a plunger and he can’t plunge it. So then he starts, it’s like, oh, this is weird. He reaches his hand down in there, it grabs his hand and pulls him through there.

And before you know it, his whole head . He’s just completely yanked down this tiny drain. It pulls this whole 

Craig: body down. Yes. Because they, the people come in and see it, and it’s like pulling his boots. , it’s, 

Todd: you, you, you know, you describe it. If you put that on paper, I would’ve just been like, oh, come on.

Like, there’s no way this is gonna work. Right. This is so unrealistic. But the way they film it and the way they do the effects, it’s, it’s 

Craig: pretty good. . It’s fun. It’s stupid, but it’s really, really fun to watch. It really is. And you know, the, the diner lady is screaming, and I really liked her and I was sad she died.

She’s the one that dies in the phone booth. But I lo it’s so great, like the blob, like completely, you know, envelopes the, the phone booth that she’s in. So it’s, you know, On all sides. And she’s holding the door with her foot and she’s on the phone to the police station and she says, please, please send the sheriff, cuz they’ve been like, flirty or whatever.

And uh, the lady on the other end of the phone is like, he’s not here. He went to the restaurant and she looks over and the blob like, shows her like, like the sheriff’s body is all decomposed in it and like, it like, gets plastered up against , dragged 

Todd: up the 

Craig: glass. Oh. And it’s, I mean, it’s, it’s so obviously like, uh, um, a dummy, you know, it’s, it’s kind of a drop, but, but it looks great.

Like it looks, the only reason I say obvious is, Having been partially digested, it’s really deformed. Yeah. Like his, his mouth is really messed up and it, like, his jaw looks like it’s broken. The teeth aren’t where they’re supposed to be. That’s the only reason, that’s the only reason I say it’s obvious. It looks fantastic.

Todd: Yeah. That shocked me. I, I, I did a double take at that as well. I could not believe the sheriff was dead. Me too. Just like Paul, they spent a good quarter of the movie, if not a third of the movie, really setting these people up for being our heroes and just like that, with no warning whatsoever and no fanfare.

Boom, 

Craig: they’re dead. Well, and him, they had set up him and Fran, the diner lady is like this romantic Yes. You know, deal. So I thought, you know, that they were gonna have this, you know, romantic, happy ending noop. They both bite it. She, the, the, the blob eventually just kind of like implodes the. Phone booth and, and like I said, we already mentioned it, but it, it’s so fast, but she’s just like crushed in there.

And, and you see her, you see her being crushed. It’s not like the glass breaks and it cuts away. Like you, you, you see her body and head being crushed for a split 

Todd: second. They had a full size phone booth for this, and they had a articulated mannequin in there for her for that, that that scene. And then they basically literally did just crush the phone booth on all sides.

They had these hydraulic, you know, compressor guns that just boom, just shoved everything all in there at once. And you see it top down, you see it a little bit from inside and you, but then you see it from top down and it just looks brutal. 

Craig: Yeah. Ugh. And, and it looks, it’s, it’s so fast, but at the same time it’s seamless, like mm-hmm.

You don’t have time to register that it’s now a dummy. It just, it just works really well. Um, and then the blob continues to go around. There’s the famous, uh, theater scene, which is really fun here. Like there, you know, all these people are in the theater watching a slasher. 

Todd: Did you recognize the projectionist?

He looks familiar. Who was it? He was one of the two, um, lackeys of the Bad Guy in Nail Vira movie. 

Craig: Oh, no, I didn’t recognize him. He did look familiar though. Yeah. Uh, and there’s tons of people who look familiar in this. There’s also this Dr. Meadows, who is like in charge of the. team that’s coming in to contain this.

Mm-hmm. . And we find out, and this is different than the original two. In the original, the blob is an alien from outer space. Um, in this movie we find out that it’s actually like a, uh, a weapon, like a biological warfare type deal that was, uh, yeah. Created by the United States government. And the thing that crashed in their town wasn’t a meteor, it was a satellite.

Todd: Yeah, A satellite or whatever. Yeah. It was a satellite that, uh, yeah. They’d had it up in a satellite, circling around, exposed, I don’t know, to the air, whatever, to see what the germs would do up in space and whatnot. And yeah, it came crashing down. Yeah. Well, 

Craig: he’s the leader of this, Dr. Meadows. This is an older black gentleman, so familiar, and he’s been in a bazillion things.

Um, I remember him very specifically, A very special episode of the Golden Girls , where he was a friend of Sophia’s, but he had Alzheimer’s disease and he forgot her. And it was a very special episode and he was really good in it. I don’t know if I’ve ever mentioned that I’m a huge Golden Girls 

Todd: fan. Only about a dozen times.

Yeah, . 

Craig: Okay. I just wanted to just put it out there. One of the greatest shows ever. And, and he played a very sad Alzheimer’s man. 

Todd: Joe Seneca , Joe Seneca. He died 1996. Just, just, uh, oh yeah. Just a less than 10 years after this movie. Just 

Craig: a bum. You, but he’s good. And, and you know, he plays the good corrupt military guy.

You know, eventually, uh, Brian, Kevin Dylan, you know, overhears him saying that they, you know, their top priority is containing. The blob and the citizens of the town are expendable. Don’t care about them. Yeah. So, so now Brian, you know, has to save the whole town. Now here’s the other thing. Okay, so then there’s this, I don’t know, a bunch of other happens, people get killed, whatever.

Now the blob is great big and it’s chased people out of the theater and it’s chasing them down the street, like towards towns hall. And this is like the Godzilla moment where it’s the big monster and it’s chasing everybody and the military’s there and they’re shooting it with machine guns and nothing is working.

And it’s like overturning cars and there’s explosions and all this stuff. And it gets, um, everybody into like town hall and Shawny, like this one military guy. They’re all in like hazmat suits. The military guys, one of them shoots at it with a flame thrower and the flames don’t have any effect on it, but the blob shoots out a tentacle into the barrel.

Of the flame 

Todd: thrower, 

Craig: so that it explodes and sets this guy on fire. Shawnee Smith, who is the real hero of this movie, um, sees this guy on fire and grabs a fire extinguisher and puts him out drawing the attention of the blob, which then goes to attack her and having nothing else at her disposal. She shoots it with the, uh, fire extinguisher.

Fire extinguisher. Yep. And it recoils so she realizes that it’s the extreme cold that it can’t handle. Then we immediately cut to Brian stealing. A artificial snow maker. 

Todd: Yeah, . How did he know? Oh, that was set up earlier. Remember when he came because of the refrigerator thing? When he came by to, um, early in the, in the movie when he tries to jump, uh, when we’re first introduced to him, he tries to jump a jump with his motorcycle and fails and breaks it, leaves it in the woods.

And then he comes back into his buddy at the mechanic shop, um, and asks him for, uh, his ratchet set, remember? And the dude in the mechanic shop happens to mention, oh yeah, well, you know, you better bring it back. Cuz I got two of these big snow machines that I, uh, I’ve gotta repair because the town, and again, they, they make a mention of this a couple times early on in the movie that it’s a skiing town and it’s pretty soon, oh, the snow, the snow people are gonna be in for the, uh, in their, and so he even pulls a couple beers out of the snow that they’ve gotten the snow maker.

But, uh, yeah, it’s kind of a blinking, you miss it kind of thing. I looked at and I was like, having seen the original, having known that cold is the thing. Right? I was like, all right, well clearly that snow machine’s gonna be coming in soon. . 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, he drives it into the town and like crashes it like, like he drives it directly into the blob.

I don’t know what his, I don’t know what his plan was, right? I don’t think he 

Todd: really thought that through. He’s trying to blast it with snow, but he kind of gets out control and just get over pretty fast. 

Craig: And this is when, you know, there’s lots of blob on cars and trucks and it’s obvious that these are like toy cars and stuff.

It’s still super fun. But, um, when he crashes the truck, uh, I was gonna say Shawnee Smith, Meg sees and she comes out to help him and somehow. . God, I don’t even, what does she 

Todd: do? She, she gets onto the liquid nitrogen canister, right? And sticks a bomb. And they have like these little bomb things in there, but as she leaps off of it, her foot gets caught.

So she’s hanging off by the side and it’s up to, uh, uh, Brian to come over. That part was so funny to 

Craig: me because she’s on this is on a street and she’s on top of this tanker that’s overturned of like liquid nitrogen or whatever she knows, dives off of it. Like, yes. What, what was she, what was she thinking was going to happen?

Like, thank God she was tangled up in that cord. Right. That’s why she would’ve just face planted right on the pavement. , 

Todd: you’re absolutely right. . But anyway, 

Craig: Brian comes and like, gets her foot out and uh, the liquid nitrogen tank explodes and immediately like freezes and calcifies the blob. And it’s, you know, just all these 

Todd: tiny bits, crystal.

Yeah. Which 

Craig: is different. I, I, I actually liked in, in the original that like, it just froze whole and then they airlifted it by a helicopter to the Arctic. Yes. I love, I love that. I love that ending. This one’s a little bit anti-climactic 

Todd: with a big, uh, with a big animated question mark at the end. Yes. The 

Craig: end question.

Mark . I love that. 

Todd: Del Close who played the priest in this one. Yeah. Um, who we barely mentioned, but kind of comes in here at the end. He is a comedic actor, and he has been in Chicago, well, he’s, he’s not alive anymore, but he had been in Chicago for most of his career training. Dan Akroyd, Chris Farley, John Farrow, John Belushi, Gilda Rad.

I mean, Tina, Faye, the list goes on. Um, this man was basically, uh, a coach for comedians. John Candy, Steven Colbert, . Mm-hmm. , bill Murray. Like all these people, like, um, you know, he was basically their teacher and uh, he was talking about the original. He was quite convinced that the original was a metaphor for the Red Scare, which was going on at that time.

Mm-hmm. , big red blob comes through, um, and then at the end of the movie, they, the red scare or this threat of communism or whatever, never goes away. Right. It just, uh, it just, uh, lingers. So you, you can’t kill it. You just have to drop it off at the Arctic, but it’s always in danger of being reborn and thought out again later in the future.

Right. ? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . This movie, I don’t think tries to make those kind of political points, but it does end on a more ambiguous note. 

Craig: That’s what I was gonna ask you. It’s inter, it’s, it’s ironic that you brought up this Reverend Meeker, because that’s what I was gonna ask you about, because they say, oh, we better get it in the freezer before dawn, or something like, okay, whatever.

Um mm-hmm. . But then this guy, this priest who’s just kind of been like, wandering around the whole movie like. Casually observing the blob. Like, oh, there it is again. Like weird. Um, here at the ends, like he’s been hurt. Somehow he’s been burned or something on one side of his face. So after like, it seems like the movie’s over, then there’s another scene which like, yeah.

A religious revival. Is that him? Yes, that him. Okay. I I, I thought so. But he looks different. Like he, he’s taken off his clerical collar. He’s got long hair. He’s all sweaty and weird. Yeah. The only his face is messed up. Yeah. And so his wounds have healed, but he’s scarred. I thought it was him. I just wasn’t sure.

And he’s like leading this religious revival. And then he goes back, like into the back of the tent, like in the, his private area. And a lady comes back and she’s like, when Reverend,

the day of. How far

Todd: the Lord will give 

Craig: me a sign and he holds up a jar that’s got a piece of the thaw out living blob in it. Like he’s one day gonna release it for the day of reckoning or whatever. Yeah. That was so weird. That was so random. Such a weird ending. 

Todd: Yeah. I mean, it, it’s, it’s a little a jarring, right? I, the, the, he gets those pieces.

He somehow ends up at the diner, um, shortly after the couple leaves and they had retreated into a, like the, the, the refrigerator? Yeah, the refrigerator. So the blob had tried to kind of come under the fridge, but then it did a bit of a retreat. Right. Um, but I guess during its retreat, little few bits of it crystallized and the priest came through and just saw the aftermath of all this and looked on the ground and was interested enough in these tiny little pink.

Crystals or whatever, that he picked them up and put ’em into a jar, knowing not at all what they were or what it was about or anything. And then you’re right, you don’t see him again for any of the rest of the movie. Maybe pops up once or twice. He’s 

Craig: there at like in the big finale in the street. He’s there.

I think that’s, but he doesn’t, I, I feel like he never even interacts with any of the other characters. Like he’s just hanging 

Todd: around all the time in the rampaging scene, he’s like ranting and raving like, oh, the end of the world is ni oh, this is a sign from God or whatever. So it feels like they just kind of tried to shoehorn that in.

Yeah. As kind of a shock. Gotcha. Ending by throwing a little bit of that in there. I, I, Ika was kind of under the impression based on the fact that his eye was milky white and the side of his face was kind of messed up and scarred that maybe some of the blob had gotten into him. Maybe, maybe controlling him a little bit.

I don’t know. I don’t 

Craig: know is, I don’t know. But ultimately, I like this movie. It’s cute. I don’t love it. Oh, love it. Like I, I loved it, . I don’t love it. I think it’s fine. I think it’s fun. I think it’s a really fun movie. And it’s not boring. It moves pretty fast. There’s so much about it. Like the, so many, so much of the story, so many of the scenes are really campy and I’m here for it, like good like that, but not fun.

This is an old school monster movie, and I, I, I’m down 

Todd: and yet not overly campy, right? Not like, I, I mean, I thought it was just the right amount. I mean, 

Craig: it was, it’s just tongue in cheek, right? Yeah. Like it’s, it’s, it’s not over the top stupid that which, which is fine too, you know, in, in some circumstances.

But this isn’t that. It’s, yeah, you’re right. It’s not that over the top. It’s more tongue in cheek. Tongue in cheek wink, wink. But they play it pretty straight. Well, 

Todd: Chuck Russell, the director of this, came right off of Nightmare Elm Street, three Dream Warriors. Yeah. Frank Derban had a, had a hand in writing as well, and so, you know, it’s got a little bit of that in it.

He went on from that to do the mask and a, a few other things. So like, he kind of went off. I don’t know why I, as I was watching this movie, I just kept thinking about the fly too. It felt like it had a little bit of that same vibe to it. Hmm. And Dare Bond actually wrote, uh, wrote the screenplay for that as well.

But yeah, I just felt it had a similar kind of feel. And I mean, I know you love the fly too, but I think that’s also because you have one Oh, 

Craig: that’s nostalgia. Yeah, that’s not nostalgia. 

Todd: Quality . I thought this movie was way more entertaining and I think this movie works as a action movie really more. I mean, there’s cool action scenes in here too.

Yeah. Where they’re in the sewer and she’s dangling and it’s, it’s trying to get her, then she falls in and she’s gotta escape. I love it that this guy inexplicably has his motorcycle in the sewer . Oh, the motorcycle 

Craig: in the sewer scene was the best. I can’t believe I forgot about that. Oh my god. There’s a whole motorcycle stunt where he has to like ride up on the side of the.

Tunnel to get past the blob. Oh, that was fantastic. I’m so glad you 

Todd: remembered to bring it up. . It’s great. Also, I love movie sewers, like they’re enormous. Somebody needs to give me the tour of a sewer, uh, of a very small town like this one and convince me that it’s giant and cavernous everywhere. Right.

Craig: Like with like 15 foot high ceilings. Sure, sure. 

Todd: Huge pipes just, and all the water’s clear and there’s not a. had a single bit of waste floating around in there,

Craig: That was great. You’re right. It’s a good movie, . It’s a good remake. I, I, I say that this is one where the remake was justified. Uh, yes. And I, I think that it was done right at the right time. You know, the, the late eighties right before cgi, I took over the world because, you know, this could be remade with CGI and probably will be at, at some point, and I’ll reserve judgment.

Who knows? You know, they, people can do great things with cgi, but I feel like this, um, was made right at the right time. It’s, it’s a great callback to the, to the story of the. But even more so, the style of the original and other movies like this, these B monster movies that were drive-in Fair, Matine, afa, you know, for our dad’s generation.

Oh yeah. I mean, yeah, just a, an excellent callback that really, really, for me, it really works. I, I don’t think it’s a masterpiece, but it really works 

Todd: for me. Oh, I just thought it was fun from start to finish for a lot of different reasons. The slight campiness, the tongue and cheek humor, the, the throwback to the fifties, the great special effects, the action and the surprises that they threw into the plot.

Yeah, totally subverting your expectations at moment. I mean, there was a lot of thought that went into the writing of this movie and. It followed a trend of the times. I think they were remaking a lot of old monster movies at this time. I think the thing came out about five or six years before this, um, the fly remake was around this time, the stuff, you know, which is very similar to The Blob.

Yeah. Which is a couple years before this. So like, uh, it was definitely following a trend and I’m kind of surprised that it didn’t do as well at the box office. It was very disappointing. And I think that the explanation that the filmmakers have is just, it was a tough summer. Like they were up against a lot of other big movies and, uh, Tristar whatever didn’t end up investing too much into, um, advertising for it.

So it kind of got buried. Mm-hmm. , it didn’t even make back its whole budget. I think it’s budget. I don’t know. The budget’s hard to nail down. Like in IMDB it just says 10 million, but I’ve read that it was at least 20 million and, and half of that was simply special effects. Um, but it didn’t even make back, uh, eight, I think million, uh, on box office.

So bit, bit, bit of a disappointment, but apparently the VHS cover art propelled it forward and it did quite well on home video and rentals. . 

Craig: Oh, I vividly, I so vividly remember that cover. Oh, yeah. In, in the video store. Yeah. It was, I mean, it’s simple. It’s just, you know, one frame from the movie, but, but the best frame one.

One of the 

Todd: best ones, yeah. , it was great. All right. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with the French Find us online. Two guys in a Chainsaw podcast is all you need to Google to get our Twitter page, our Facebook page, and our patreon patreon.com/chainsaw podcast.

Please consider, uh, becoming a fan of the show of Patron. Spend a little bit of money, uh, every month and get access to a bunch of extra features. We do a couple mini sos every month. Write up some reviews, uh, do a lot of behind the scenes discussion, and as in this month, we pull our patrons and they’re the ones who really shape the show and tell us what requests we’re going to decide to do, and in this case, especially what theme month we’re gonna do, so we actually have more remakes coming for you throughout the rest of February.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Ruggero Deodato died in December of last year. He directed 36 films ranging from comedy to drama to horror to science fiction, but he’s probably best known for what is widely considered to be the most controversial film of all time: Cannibal Holocaust.

It was only a matter of time before we got around to discussing this film, and now we have the perfect opportunity. Listen in as we revisit this disturbing and notorious cannibal classic from Italy, which has inspired filmmakers like Eli Roth and Oliver Stone. And let us know what YOU think of this movie in the comments – if you are brave enough to watch it, that is…

Cannibal Holocaust (1980)

Episode 332, 2 Guys & A Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, here we are doing our, I believe, our second tribute episode of the 2023 Year 

Craig: Man. 2023. Just started two already. I know. 

Todd: crazy. Well, the person that died, uh, was Ruggero Deodato, uh, infamous Italian film director. Did lots of different films, some horror movies, more or less was credited with starting the cannibal genre back in the seventies, although I believe Umberto Lenzi did a couple cannibal movies before he did. Deodato died in December, I believe, of last year. So just about a month ago, Craig messaged me and said, oh shit. Does this mean we’re gonna have to finally get around to doing Cannibal Holocaust. And I said, yeah, of course. . Yeah. So here we are, 1980’s Cannibal Holocaust.

I mean, you know, I think ever since we started this podcast, we knew we were eventually gonna have to get around to doing this movie. We’ve 

Craig: probably mentioned it a dozen times. Yeah. You know, throughout the course of this, I, uh, yeah, I, I, and honestly, I haven’t been looking forward to it. I, I’ve seen this movie before.

I think I first saw it when I was in my early twenties by myself. I think I rented it and watched it by myself, just because I knew how infamous it was. I don’t really remember what my reaction to it. At that time was, I think that I had it in my mind that it was so scandalous that I would be scandalized and I w I didn’t feel scandalized.

Um, I, I think that I had just hyped it up so much in my head, um, that when I actually saw what it was, although it is something, it just didn’t have the impact that I expected. And I, I’ve seen it since then. I don’t remember why I watched it again, but I did, and I rewatched it for this. Um, I don’t know. I don’t even know because I’m so ambivalent about this movie because on the one hand I actually think it’s a good movie.

I, I think that it’s well made. Uh, I think that Didado accomplished something that isn’t really easy to accomplish, and I think that the movie has something poignant to say. But I, I don’t, I don’t enjoy watching it.

I, but, but that’s the thing. Like, uh, there’s there and I’m, I really am excited to talk about it cuz I feel like there’s so much to talk about. Yeah. Um, but I, I, I’m just torn. I’m, I’m torn cuz it’s one of those things where I guess I don’t like it, but I respect it for what it is and I think it deserve.

Talking about, and it deserves some recognition. So we’ll see how it goes. Well, 

Todd: yeah, I mean, I’m right with, I’m right there with you. I saw this movie first. I think I was either in high school or maybe I was in college. I don’t remember which. But of course, it’s been notorious. And even back then, before the internet, you know, this, this movie kind of made the rounds as a notorious film, supposedly banned in 60 plus countries.

I remember seeing it sitting on the video store shelf, touting that fact. It looked like a uhhuh, , sheep, you know, movie. You know, like something like a phases of death kind of film that, yeah, that, that really presented itself as this forbidden fruit. And so I did, I, I watched it and I would say, , I, it had an impact on me.

It definitely had an impact on me at the time. I think the sexual violence was really upsetting and remained so. Mm-hmm. , although, to be honest, by today’s standards, it does come off as looking a little fake maybe, and silly in some ways. I don’t know, actually, I, I, I don’t know why I say that because some of it’s just not terribly convincing.

It’s a lot of people kind of naked, naked people flopping around, you know what I mean? But in the same sense, like within the context of the film, it’s really off-putting and really disturbing. Mm-hmm. , the movie itself is really off-putting and disturbing. And I agree with you that I think even after the first time I saw it, I said, honestly, it’s, it’s pretty genius.

Yeah. Like it really is. And even more so that the statement that the film makes and it makes a very definite statement. Is very prescient. Yeah. Maybe even more so today, you know, about what we do to each other and violence and people trying to gain notoriety by going to extremes. And you know, in this case, filming it and it’s, it might be a little on the nose, but honestly I think that the message is real and valid.

And like I said, even more in today’s, in the, in the era of YouTube where people do crazy things for YouTube and TikTok views this, the message, this movie fits right in to the point where now it almost seems a little quaint, but when I saw it back then, Don’t you think? So? I 

Craig: still think that it’s pretty relevant and, and 

Todd: oh, I didn’t say it’s not relevant.

I, I’m saying it is 

Craig: relevant. Right, right. I I get what you’re saying. I get what you’re saying. Quaint. I don’t, I don’t agree because I think that it’s very much in your face and, and, uh, I, you know, you, I, I know exactly what you’re talking about. The, the scene that you’re talking about, the sexual violence.

There’s a, there’s, well, there’s more than one, but, well, the first, the first gang rape scene, it does look very awkward and clumsy. Um, but to me that was more realistic. Mm. With, with a woman. S you know, if, if a woman, which I, God, it’s just even horrible to talk about, but I assume that a woman would struggle and that struggle would lead to.

Ness as far as bodies together. I mean, we all know how the biology works. Uh, right. But, you know, it would lead, it, it, it didn’t look fake to me. It made me very uncomfortable. It made me very uncomfortable to know that that girl that played that role was 14. Uh, so much, so many things. There are a 

Todd: lot of things to, to make you uncomfortable about this movie.

Right. But I 

Craig: think that the movie has so many statements to make and I, I feel like you were talking about, you know, what people will do for notoriety. And, and I, I think that’s true. And I think there’s a lot to say about that in terms of deodato himself. Uh, cuz I think that’s what he was going for. He was trying to push buttons.

But I think that the commentary is more about us. You know, I, I, I think it’s as the viewer, you’re right, we’re w we as polite society will sit back and say, why would anybody make this? Why would anybody make a movie like this? As we sit here and watch it. And I think that that’s what, right, that’s part of what it’s, it’s commenting on, and I don’t want to, you know, jump ahead, but I really feel like the thing that hit me the most, uh, watching this, it’s about this group of kids, really young filmmakers, who are going out to make a documentary about these, uh, native tribes in the Amazon, uh, you know, kind of untouched by civilization.

Um, and they are just completely exploiting these people for their own success and fame. And then eventually, you know, they go missing and somebody has to go in looking for them and they recover all this footage. And they, the guy, the doctor of anthropology who recovered all the footage and these producers all sit down to review the footage because they wanna put it together into a documentary, but it’s so horrible.

What’s they find on the footage that the anthropologist obviously objects, but the thing that got me the most was near the very end of the movie is they’re sitting there and watching it, and they’re talking about how terrible it is. The female producer says, come on now, professor, let’s be realistic. Who knows anything about the Yakumo civilization today?

People want sensationalism. The more you rape their senses, 

Todd: the happier 

Craig: they are. I think that that’s kind of the point that they’re trying to make. Yes. . Uh, no. And, and I think that’s very true, not only of this time. I think that we were very much aware of it of this time, cuz you already mentioned like Faces of Death, uh, and, and oth these other extreme cannibal movies that were showing extreme violence and brutality.

Um, and not even just those, but movies like Last House on the Left and I Spit on Your grave and you know, these really, really gritty, brutal, violent movies. There was an audience for them and there still is. And yeah, I, I it, it almost makes you a little bit, you know, ashamed like . Yeah. I’m the person that they’re making these movies for.

I 

Todd: guess. And there’s another layer to it as well. I mean, around this time, or shortly before this time anyway, there was a series of, they call them Mondo Films cuz the kind of, the first one on the scene was Mondo Kane, also Italian, these ostensible documentaries, which had real footage of a far flung civilizations.

And they’re weird practices, what we would call weird. Like, hey, look in on this tribe of people out in the Amazon, for example. Look at these, at these people out in, um, the desert, the nomads, and the, you know, basically for quote unquote Western white society to gaze upon and sort of. , uh, otherwise in a way for entertainment, yeah.

These people and their practices, which could come across as shocking and oftentimes kind of were, you know, almost in the same way. Like, look, oh, the natives are walking around naked. Or, you know, oh, look at their death rituals and how barbar or barbaric they are, and look at how they slaughter animals and things like that.

And these, these movies would be shown as documentaries, but they were obviously shown for sensational, you know, they were obviously shown to a public who got kind of a cheap thrill of watching it. And also in a sense, really of a feeling of superiority. Like, oh, look at how civilized we are and how far we’ve come in watching these movies.

And, you know, these, these kind of movies would not really be done today. But Mondo Cain was so popular that the, the, um, it, they spawned lots and lots of sequels and copycats and the title song from it. , which, um, was written actually by the guy who also did a lot of the music for this movie. Got an Academy Award for best song that year.

Huh? More so, um, you know, I think there’s that layer of it too, where you’re looking at this movie and this movie does a pretty good job of trying to portray these native tribes as savages. And that plays into therefore the plot and theme of the film where, like you said, this group of people go in with complete and utter disregard and very much othering these native people to the point where they can inflict violence on them.

You know, they, they, they at one point get them into a hot and burn it, like, and just all they’re doing is laughing and filming the whole time. Yet fast forward to this scene here where this producer, like you said, is saying, oh, we gotta release this documentary. It’s enter. , she is not appalled by what they’re seeing and all of this brutality, most of which is inflicted upon these native tribes until she sees a similar level brutality inflicted upon the white people.

Right. And that’s the thing that gives her pause to a hilarious degree, really in the screening room, to the point where they all kinda leave without looking, without talking. And one guy gets on the phone to the projectionist and says, you know, burn all the footage. To me that’s telling as well, and that works too on that level.

So, you’re right, the, the movie’s got a lot of different things to say and then of course, , the obvious thing this movie we are watching is, you know, we’re implicated in it. Right, that’s what I was trying to say, because we’re participating in the exploitation and, and, and the director and creator of this movie is making an exploitation movie.

And it 

Craig: is . It is, it is exploitive, obviously. And I, I want to put that out there. It, it exploits, uh, these native people who are actual, um, native people who probably had very little understanding of what they were doing, though I’ve not read anything about them being mistreated or anything. Like that.

Right. However, uh, it is, you know, it’s exploitive when you go in and you put people in a position where they don’t really understand what they’re doing. And I was just talking about this with a friend yesterday. You know, they’re, they’re acting and they’re not under duress. In fact, what I’ve read is that they had a wonderful time and they were very much, uh, entertained, you know, by, they thought 

Todd: it was hilarious.

Apparently. They thought it was 

Craig: hilarious. You know, they were treated well based on everything that I’ve read, but they don’t understand that they’re wildly misrepresenting themselves. Mm-hmm. and who knows if they would even care. But you said something about presenting them as savages. And I, I think that that is actually a misunderstanding or a misperception about the movie because I don’t think that it does a, aside from the fact that it does portray them as cannibals, they, they eat the flesh of their enemies.

Ritualistically And I, I don’t believe that that’s true. I don’t, I don’t think that that was true. So that’s, that’s not, that’s, that’s fiction. Um, but aside from that, they’re really not portrayed as Savage. I, I, I guess depending, depending upon how you define that. In fact, I think it’s quite the opposite. I think the point of the movie is to show that they are not the Savages, it’s the white characters in the movie that are the savages.

Yes. And they very much 

Todd: are. Yes. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. I don’t think I said that the movie itself portrays ’em as savages. I think what I said was that the people, the, the fictional characters in the movie come in and treat them as savages. Ah, okay. And the, the, the, the, the producer of the film and, you know, when they’re watching it, you know, they’re, they’re making these comments and even the professor in the film really, who actually is portrayed in a very good light and seems to be quite sensitive, you know, as an anthropologist should be as he goes in, in his.

you know, way of, uh, of, uh, trying to find out what happened to these guys. There’s a, there’s a very distinct difference, obviously, between the, um, professor who is, uh, what Harold Monroe. Mm-hmm. . He’s got this guy Choco, um, who’s a guy that they have, uh, hired, uh, to take them in there. And they’re constantly talking about how dangerous the jungle is and how savage it is in there.

And, and, uh, and, and the movie does a really good job, I think, of trying to, not just from the tribes, but you know, it talks about these two warring tribes, this tribe of, um, people up in the trees like a tree tribe. Mm-hmm. of the Yamamoto. Then this other tribe, the, the swamp tribe tari, both real tribes who are not represented in this movie at all the way they actually are.

Right, right. You know, not just these two tribes who are, who are fighting each other, but also, you know, the dangers of the jungle itself. , right as they’re going in to try to find this missing crew. You know, they’re crossing through the water and one guy gets leeches on him. There’s constant shots of like jaguars that they have to shoot at and, and, and, and run away from and, and monkeys and screeching at them.

And, um, spiders just, it just goes really out of its way to portray this is where, as a jungle, as a place where there’s danger around every corner. Just natural. That film producer sees all of this footage and is excited about putting together this documentary. And up to now the footage that she’s seen and she’s so excited about is really about these white people raping the jungle of its animals.

And we’ll get to that in a minute. And then literally raping this tribe and killing these people and burning them up in huts, she’s still saying, oh, well, you know, the people want this. This is such a great documentary. And it’s not until, like I said, she sees that same activity going on to the, the white people that she’s suddenly stunned and upset by and decides that this isn’t worth releasing.

You know, that is a point that I think had been lost to me in previous viewings of this movie That Right. That really, um, hit home to me, uh, right now. So that, that’s what I mean, like that’s that other layer over it. I think that, um, that really shown through this time around. See, 

Craig: and that’s the thing, like I think that I watched the movie this time around more thoughtfully.

So I think I took more away from it this time, which is why I have respect for it. I also, you know, in preparing for this, I also watched, um, some interviews, um, with cast and crew and the director. Uh, and I, I understand that this is, uh, Ruggiero d Dato’s, um, tribute episode. He seemed like a real dick. Yeah.

probably, probably a brilliant dick. He just seems like one of those, you know, stereotypical pretentious artists who is so certain of his vision that he doesn’t really care how he accomplishes it. And, and, and he’ll walk right over people. He’ll treat people terribly and, and not really have any remorse.

even though. I guess late in his life he said that he regrets making this movie. He regrets all the decisions that he made that people have criticized. I think that’s bullshit. I think that he Cow towned. Yeah. To pressure and criticism over the years, because the things that I’ve seen him say, he doesn’t seem remorseful at all for any of this.

In fact, he seemed to take a little. Pleasure in it, like in, in recounting some of the scenes that the actress, uh, who played Faye 

Todd: Francesca 

Craig: Cidi Cidi, um, there were several, well, at least a couple of scenes that she was uncomfortable doing. And, uh, he just, he berated her into doing things that she didn’t want to do, like literally screamed and, and yelled at her until she would just succumb and do what he wanted her to do.

In the interviews that I saw, I saw them both recount that story and, and the other actors were present and witnessed this happen, and the consensus among the actors was kind of like, God, you know, that what a, what a dick thing to do, even though it got her to do what he wanted. You know, Deodato tells the story and he’s giggling through it, like , she was fine.

Yeah. So I, again, it’s one of those things where, . I, I, I don’t like the movie, but I can appreciate that. I think that it is, uh, there, there’s something to it. There’s something substantial and of quality to it. Oh yeah. Uh, Deodato kind of seems like a dick, but he also seems like a good filmmaker, , you know, 

Todd: like, well, you know, you get the same, I’m not, I don’t mean to compare him to James Cameron, but you know, you get the same sort of thing.

You know, James Cameron, um, Uh, who has, who did The Shining Stanley, uh, Kubrick. All of them are well known as, you know, directors who are difficult, difficult on set. They berate people. They kind of use a different tactic to get the performances that they want, but then they end up turning out, you know, stuff that people really like and enjoy.

So, you know, I mean, that’s just, that’s just the way life is. Right? Sometimes really dickish people bad. We all have bad bosses that, and end up doing great things, , you know? Yeah. So that, I mean, that’s, that’s gotta be true though. Even Robert Kerman, who was the star, um, who played, uh, the professor Harold Monroe, who actually came from the porn.

feel. Mm-hmm. , uh, surprisingly, and went back to it. Quite a good actor actually. 

Craig: I thought, I actually thought he was quite good in this too. And sympathetic, probably the only sympathetic, a aside from the native people, the only sympathetic character. Mm-hmm. , um, yeah. And, and he had, he came from porn and, and did this.

And then I guess after this he couldn’t get any more, um, mainstream work, so he went back to porn, um, struggling actor, which it’s, I again, seeing, um, interviews, people who worked with him said he, he was a good actor. He really was. But he also kind of had an Adonis complex. Like he, he thought he was real hot shit.

That’s funny. So may, I don’t know, maybe his cockiness had something to do with the, him getting 

Todd: rolls later. I don. He said he almost came to blows with deodato. He said he felt like the man had no soul. And I think he even said that contemporaneously, uh, you know, after filming, shortly after filming the movie.

And, uh, I think what bothered him and a lot of the castmates on the movie wasn’t necessarily any of what we’ve been talking about so far, so much as the animal cruelty. And that’s a whole other level of disturbing aspect to, to this film. 

Craig: Okay. So I’m real, I’m are, are we gonna talk about that now or are we saving it?

Yeah, 

Todd: why not? Go ahead, . 

Craig: Well, no, I bec because it’s one of the most talked about things. It’s one of the most talked about things about the movie. I mean, we can go, I, I don’t wanna go through plot point by plot point because it’s a very simple plot really. And I, I feel like we can. kind of hit some of these big topics because these are the interesting things.

Yeah. And this is one of the most hotly, you know, debated parts of this movie is the treatment of animals. Because there are, as you mentioned before, you know, they shot this in the Amazon, and so there are lots of real animals around, and you do, you see snakes and spiders and monkeys and turtles and, you know, all kinds of wildlife.

Um, but there are these infamous scenes where they slaughter live animals on screen. And I’m, I want to hear what your thoughts are on it 

Todd: before I go . Well, I maybe, I’m gonna sound like a terrible person. The animal cruel. I don’t think so. The animal cruelty turns my stomach to a degree, but, and, and I’m not a fan of doing something like this just for a film.

The way that Dio Dato , it’s so hard because look, let’s, let’s be honest here. Um, you could do accomplish this sort of stuff with special effects and movies nowadays, do this. Anytime you’re gonna show animal cruelty, you’re absolutely not gonna kill. You’re not even gonna kill a spider. No. You know, we did a Acto phobia here and, uh, we talked about how the great lengths that they went through on that film to make sure not even a spider was harmed.

Right. You know, and they had hundreds of spiders swarming around the sets. So, uh, I think the general tenor is none of us want to know that an animal was killed for a film, let alone watch it in all of its gruesome detail on screen. Ah-huh . That being said, , it does serve a point to the movie, both in the reality of the making of the movie and in what they’re trying to accomplish.

I think it was Lloyd Kaufman who said, look, it’s kind of a mixture here of reality and fiction, and by including these very real scenes of real animal murder that are unmistakably real deodato accomplishes this magic where you’re not sure, you know, this is, maybe we didn’t even, we didn’t bring it up.

This is, I know. Something like the first, this is like the first found footage movie. Really? Yeah. And people thought it was real. People thought it was real, and that was the intent, you know, he shot it for this R in this way. The actors were under contract to disappear for about a year after the filming.

Mm-hmm. , just to kind of heighten that idea that maybe they really did die in the movie and, and even like the credits at the end and at the beginning have little things in it. Are just like Blair Witch project basically, that are trying to make you believe that this is actual found footage. And so by adding these actual elements of animal death and murder in here, uh, it, it adds to the documentary feel of it makes it feel real.

And you, this is the kind of stuff you might see in the Discovery Channel, except usually it’s animal on animal. It’s not person on animal. Right. That being said, he claims that, you know, none of all these animals were 

Craig: eaten that Yeah. They were, they were eaten. None of them were wasted. They were eaten.

Mm-hmm. that’s, see, I, of course, I don’t think anybody, anybody with a healthy mind enjoys watching animals. be hurt. Right. Like you say, you know, it’s one thing if you’re watching a nature documentary and you understand that that’s, you know, the cycle of life, that’s a different story. But when it’s, you know, people intentionally harming animals, that’s, it’s difficult to watch mm-hmm.

And it does because it’s real. You said, we can accomplish these things with special effects. We absolutely can and should, but you can tell this is real and I don’t think that you could Yeah. Accomplish that. The, the, the part that gets me the most, they, they kill a little ground animal. I don’t know, like some kind of squirrel muskrat type thing.

Kyoto, I don’t know what it’s called. They kill that. And then there’s a scene where they kill a monkey. And the one that gets me though is the turtle. They, they, they drag this giant turtle out of the river, um, and slaughter it, and they start by cutting off its head and, and when, you know, it’s, it’s one blow with the machete takes the head off.

So, to be fair, Even the way that they killed the animals, except for that little ground thing. He kind of stabbed that, that was gross. But, you know, chopping off an animal’s head is a, a fairly humane way of killing an animal. But you, you see the animal’s body react to it. And then even after it’s been beheaded, they’re grabbing for the, uh, turtle’s.

Legs. Legs. And it, it, the, the animal, even though it has a head, it doesn’t have a head. I’m sure this is all just nerves, you know, whatever. But it, it’s still trying to pull its legs into the safety of its shell. And that’s really disturbing to watch. And I, and I wanna be, I want to take a, a, a, a moral superiority standpoint and say, that’s terrible.

You shouldn’t do that. And that’s so hypocritical because I eat meat. Yeah. And somebody has to kill it. I just don’t. Have to watch it, you know? So it’s hypocritical of me to be e especially, and it makes me feel better that these are animals that these native people ate. Yes. Anyway, that they hunted and ate and the, it was, you know, the, they were, at least they claim now whether or not they’re telling the truth, I have no idea.

But they claim that this meat was given to the natives and it was used as food, and I don’t have any problem with that. So I suppo it. It’s troubling, but I feel like if they’re telling the truth, they did it the right way and it does have, Purpose and it is effective, as troubling as it may be, 

Todd: even in the context of the story really.

And, and even in the context of the situation. I mean, when that monkey, and I think there were two takes and two monkeys, but the natives were thrilled because monkey is a delicacy of theirs, , right? And so, you know, the natives, I think the, the scene is when the monkeys killed, uh, it’s the natives themselves that do it.

And it’s a, it’s a quick, uh, machete to the head that lops off half this monkey’s head, and then they, they start eating the brains and stuff like that. But I mean, this is actually part of their practice. They were clearly knew what they were doing. They were quite skillful at it, right? And so, you know, even within the context of the story, it all makes sense.

It’s not. , but, but we just don’t like, we don’t like having this mixed with entertainment and we’re watching a movie ostensibly to be entertained. And again, that is the point of the film. What do you consider entertainment? Is this entertaining to you? Right. I mean, it all serves a purpose. 

Craig: And what do you consider entertaining?

An at what cost? Hmm. What, what’s most disgusting? Uh, to me, you know, these four, I, I feel bad. The, these four actors who played the young filmmakers, first of all, they’re, they’re infants, you know, they, they’ve gotta be in their twenties, they’re kids. Um, and these were all young actors. And I feel bad that now they all express like, deep regret in having participated in this.

Mm-hmm. , uh, the, the girl who played face as, it’s the biggest regret of her life, it, it haunts her. One of the guys, the, I don’t remember what his name is, the, the blonde. Cameraman, um, you know, who is one of the main cast . He just, after the movie, you perfect that. I think he just, well, yes, he just dropped off the face of the earth, like went into height.

He won’t talk about the movie. He, you know, stays out of the public eye, like, huh. It must have been a traumatic experience for them. And in part because they had no idea what was going on. The guy who plays Alan, the director, he said that he, at one point, honestly didn’t know whether they were making a legitimate film or a snuff film mm-hmm.

Um, and, and he wasn’t entirely sure up until the end. But what I was getting at is I feel bad. I, I’m not being critical of the actors because I think that they were just doing a job. They probably didn’t know what they were getting into. And ultimately, I don’t think that they really did anything wrong. I think that they just have such distaste.

for it. Uh, I don’t, I don’t know. I can’t say what they think, but anyway, they’re, what’s gross? Like they’re supposed to be documentarians, but they’re not in any way. Documentarians are supposed to be objective, and these people, they even, I don’t even know. Somebody says it. Yeah. You know, they go in looking for savagery and when they can’t find it, they provide it themselves.

And that’s exactly what they do. They, they treat these native people as though they are not human beings, but just. The subjects of their documentary just, just inhuman things to be moved around on a stage. Oh, it’s sickening. Um, and they do, they do, they do terrible, terrible things. You know, it’s, it’s, uh, they, they have difficulty finding them.

And then when they do find a group of hunters out, they shoot one of them in the leg so that he will be slow in leading them back to their village. And then when they get to their village, they shoot them for all of 15 minutes before they feel like they need to produce some drama. One of them executes their pig, which I assume is their food source.

Uh, and then they torch the whole village. They, they corral all of these people who have no understanding of what’s happening. They don’t speak the language here. These white people with guns show up and corral them all into this one hut and then set it on fire and try to keep them in there and film it as though this is a documentary as though it was their.

Neighboring tribe, their enemy tribe, that had done this to them. And they just, they do it with absolutely no remorse. They do it with 

Todd: relish. Oh, with relish and glee. I 

Craig: mean, Uhhuh, . And it, at one point, it, it’s, it’s a later point, another infamous point. But the, the one of them is behind the camera and he’s filming this atrocity that they have committed, and the director is in the shot, and the cameraman has to remind him to look somber because he’s smiling at this disgusting, depraved thing that they have done.

And that really struck me this time too, is just how awful they were. Again, I, I think it’s commentary, you know, we are 

Todd: implicit. Yeah. I mean, it’s honestly stomach turning. , the movie bothered me then it bothers me now. And, um, I didn’t think it would bother me as much on the second or third viewing. I, I think maybe this is the third time I’ve seen it, it’s been decades since I first saw it, and it bothered me maybe even more now than it did then.

The, the utter glee and, and it even starts early on at one point, and I’m not even clear why I think their guide Felipe gets bit by a snake or something. Yeah. And, and without any treatment or anything like that, they, they decide they need to lop his leg off and they just grab him. Hold him down and while they come over and hack his leg off, like, it’s like just the same way.

And, and I think this is intentional too, just with just the same level of ease as they, you know, hack the head off of that turtle. Yeah. But one of them, I think his name is Mark, he’s holding him down, this guy down and he has almost a sinister smile on his face while this is happening. And they hack the leg off and they get, um, they take the same knife and then try to cauterize the leg mark.

I think the last bit of this image, which is shot very chaotically as though it were, you know, documentary footage still. The last shot of this, of this image is of Mark kind of looking at the camera and he looks almost scary, wild-eyed, scary with this gr. that this is going on, and they’re constantly saying, when this stuff happens, even when a spider falls on this girl, and she’s like screaming and and terrified, and the guy just was saying like, oh, this is really, really, really dangerous.

Alan is running over saying, no, no, no, no. Get the shot first. Get the shot first. You know, before we do it. They’re utterly callous. Utterly callous, right? Because that guy, their 

Craig: guide dies. Yeah. You know, even though they, and they’re just like, oh, well he died, but we’re just gonna keep going. Felipe was a great buddy and a top-notch guide.

We’ll miss him, but even more we’ll miss the security he gave us. We’ve decided to go on, but now we’ve only got the compass and our instincts to show. 

Todd: This, this guy Alan, um, who’s the director is really set off to be a sociopath, um, in this movie. And he’s the one who’s constantly turning and looking at the camera and giving narration like you might in a documentary, you know, and it’s 

Craig: established that they’ve done this before, successfully.

Like we see a different movie that they had made, I don’t remember what was called, something About Hell, like The Road to Hell or something. Yeah. The Last Road to Hell. Mm-hmm. . And it was about some like insurrection in some other country, I don’t know, and, and South Africa or something like that. And, uh, Deodato used actual historical footage of some re revolution or something, I don’t know.

Some executions and things. Yeah, yeah. Um, but, uh, you know, when the, the producers who are talking about putting this documentary together, they’re like pretty powerful stuff, huh? Well, just to give you an idea how Alan and the others worked, everything you just saw was a put on. You mean this wasn’t, that was no enemy Army approaching.

Alan paid those soldiers to do a bit of acting for it. You know, look how successful it was. Like that’s kind of how they’re justifying trying to put all this together. But it is gross and I wanna say so extreme, almost as to be unbelievable. But not, it makes you think because it seems so real. And that’s one of the things that I think that he does so well.

It seems real. It seems real in the way that Blair Witch seemed real. And I’ve confessed on this show before that I saw Blair Witch opening weekend before it was revealed that it was fiction. And I was totally fooled. I totally thought it was real, and I can understand how people would think this was real.

And I think that’s a real testament to the filmmaking, um, because of the style of it. And because in the end there are some really, really convincing effects that wouldn’t have been as convincing if they had been shot differently. But the way that they’re shot, it looks super real. And I could totally understand how people would mistake this for, uh, actual.

Documentary footage. Oh, 

Todd: absolutely. And, and that said, I think the movie does have a couple shortcomings in that department. I think mostly in the wraparound story. I think that some of the acting is a little wooden, and some of it’s a little fake, especially when they’re going to interview. You know, there’s this point in the beginning where Professor Monroe is going to interview like the parents and the friends and the ex-wife and all that of the, of the.

people. And those , some of them are better actors than others. I would say more convincing than others. But the actors in the film itself, like in that found footage, uh, seem very real. Mm-hmm. , I, I mean, hats off to Carl York as much as he says he disliked making this movie still, uh, he puts on a hell of a performance and, uh, really portrays this sociopathic guy quite well.

Yeah. In the midst of all this turmoil and, and animal cruelty that apparently for the actor was, you know, turning his stomach and then, like you said, like, like it’s shot in a way, there’s this, there’re just really some moments of genius in here that, that I, I want to call attention to. I think after we see them torch this village, then there’s a clip of Allen.

Getting on top of, 

Craig: uh, Faye, right? Is that 

Todd: what you’re talking about? Yeah. I think this is the, their sex scene that apparently the actress herself really wanted to rehearse by actually doing it. , there are very, 

Craig: I, this is one of my favorite points of discussion, because there are, depending on who you talk to, the story is very different.

Oh, yeah. Both actors involved. Say that she propositioned him and said, let’s go off and do it together. And he says, he said no, he turned her down because , because according to him, there was no way that he was gonna go off into a field in the Amazon and take his pants off. That was what he says. 

Todd: Um, well also he had a girlfriend Ryan 

Craig: together.

Well, , he did have a girlfriend, which is why he says that the sex in the scene was completely simulated. And, you know, they shot multiple takes and it was totally simulated. And she says that it was not simulated that they were actually having sex in that scene. Yeah. But this is also the scene that, uh, she didn’t want.

To show her breasts. I’m not really sure. Sure. Why? Because she’s fully nude In other places. May, maybe it was the sequence of filming. Maybe they hadn’t filmed for other nude scenes yet. I don’t know. Um, but she didn’t want to show her breasts. And, uh, Deodato directed the other actor, make sure you get her turned around sh in his, you know, words show her tits to the camera.

Mm-hmm. . And, and so when the actor, Alan, the character, when he tried to do that, she got very angry and she protested. And that’s when Dedo took her off into the woods and yelled at her for 20 minutes until she finally came back and, Did it. Mm. But yeah, that it. It’d be she says, she says that he is saying that it was simulated because he did in fact have a serious girlfriend back home.

Yeah. So 

Todd: who knows? Who knows. Well, all that being said, I, I think this is kind of a genius moment because again, it’s another realism aspect where I think the idea is that these guys with the cameramen are further away and have zoomed in on her, laying down, seeing that he’s gonna come over and start to make out with her.

And this is, I think, a very natural. Progression of events of how he’s kind of, you know, he’s kind of messing with her and then she kind of takes her clothes off, but not all the way, and they, they kind of awkwardly struggle with the clothes a little bit. But then, then like, you know, they’re almost like in a, in a fun way 

Craig: having sex.

I, I, right, I get what you’re saying. It’s rough, but you know, it’s consensual. It’s fine. Yeah. 

Todd: It, yeah, that’s what I mean. It, this part 

Craig: made, it gave me the total ick. This part. No, 

Todd: it’s ick. It’s very ick. Because, so here’s the deal. They’re doing that and, and it’s bad enough that you know that they did this other stuff and now they’re gonna have sex.

But then the camera angle changes, it’s from the other camera, and it’s a wider shot. And you can see that having sex in the remains of the burned out building, that they just burned down while the tribe is sitting in the distance together, scared by the side of the river, watching them. . Uh huh. Just changing the shot suddenly gives you a whole new context and a whole new feeling of disgust for these people.

It’s really genius how that’s done. Mm-hmm. 

Craig: and, and the tribe, you know, the tribe’s, people are back far enough in the distance that they’re not out of focus, but it’s kind of soft focus. I, yeah, I mean, that’s why I said it was so gross because it’s. Alan especially gets off on what they’ve just done. Yeah.

Like he’s so pumped up. It’s literally , right? That, you know, he, he can’t control himself and he has to just take her. Right? There’re in the open, but worse than anything in front of these people who they’ve just brutalized. And then I feel like the very next scene is maybe the next morning and they’re kind of washing up.

These, by the way, are the swamp people who aren’t even the people that they’re interested in. They’re trying to find the tree people, cuz nobody’s ever, you know, infiltrated the tree people before. So right after that, they’re gonna head off and they’re like washing up by a river and the camera just casually pans to this woman who I assume was terribly, terribly.

in the hut that they burned up and she’s laying there by the river dying. And this person just casually says, when the old members of the tribe feel death approach, they wander off to a secluded spot after she dies. This old woman, this old woman will probably end up his lunch for some alligator in the jungle.

Nothing goes to waste. Nature recycles everything. He’s probably just making that shit up. Yeah. And this is a person, it, you know, alive, laying there in agony, dying, and they’re just, you know, having their coffee and chit chatting. They’re treating her like a prop. 

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. It’s gross. Yeah. And then there’s a scene of a woman, I think it’s around this time too, where they’re, they’re like, oh, come, we’re gonna check out, um, this not never before scene ritual where, you know, they have to take care of their, their sick or whatever.

And there’s this pregnant woman, uh, and I guess it’s more or less like a forced abortion. Uh, that the tribe is performing. But as shocking as that would be, and again, this is perfect material for Mondo type documentaries. They can’t leave well enough alone and just film it in. All of its disturbing this.

They’ve gotta go in and push people around and try to get up close and almost like become participants in, in this, you know, it, it, it’s just so crazy what they’re doing. Yeah. And this isn’t even a thing that they made happen and they still had to come in and make it worse by terrorizing these people.

Yeah. 

Craig: And I, I had, I totally a hundred percent agree. Um, and I had forgotten about that part. You know, I had said earlier they, the filmmakers don’t, well, Deodato doesn’t frame the natives of Sav as savages. Well, this ritual is pretty savage. I didn’t really even understand. Why it was happening. Yeah. If she was sick and so they couldn’t allow her baby to be born because maybe it would be sick and they kill her too.

And then there’s another scene very early on when, uh, the anthropologist, when Monroe first arrives, the first thing that he witnesses is a native man br, like it’s, I guess a, a ritualistic killing, a punishment for adultery. Um, and this native man, the actress, they couldn’t find a native actress to do it.

I don’t know what that means if they just couldn’t convince one to do it or what, but. And, and there’s, uh, varying stories. Some say it was like a costumer, I don’t know, it doesn’t really matter. But it was a, a white woman who they covered completely in mud to try to hide the fact that she was white, but this native man brutalizes her with blunt instruments, you know, rapes her with these terrible devices and, and eventually beats her to death.

And it’s a terribly, terribly brutal, brutal and gruesome scene. So I guess I wasn’t entirely fair, but even then, these are presented as rituals and I am hesitant to, uh, criticize rituals that I don’t have a full understanding of. So I don’t know. Yeah. Are you still ? You know what I mean? Like, like I don’t support that, but I don’t want to disrespect another culture that I am ignorant of.

so that out, I 

Todd: mean, who knows? Maybe it’s true. I thought it probably wasn’t . Oh no, I’m sure. No, I’m 

Craig: sure it was fictionalized. I’m just, uh, I don’t know. Like I, I, you know, that, I think that, um, circumcision is, uh, barbaric, 

Todd: right? 

Craig: So I’m, I’m just saying I try not to judge other cultures, but anyway, pretty fair enough, pretty bad.

The other, and that, uh, I think one of the other things that people are, are shocked and disturbed by as well, they should be, is the sexual brutality. But that’s just one of the things that I was so shocked by. There’s a scene when they, that when they, I say they find the tree people, they find one young girl, um mm-hmm.

who is a, a member of this tribe, and their immediate response is to chase and grab. and gang rape her. Mm-hmm. , all three of the men in front of Faye, the woman who is Alan’s girlfriend, and Alan participates in this too. And it’s one of those things, we saw a movie once, I don’t remember where, what it was.

Maybe it was, uh, the, the rage, the monkey Rage. Where these, these, oh yeah, these three guys were gonna gang rape this girl. And she ended up getting out of it, I think, cuz she had the primal rage. But it was obvious that they had done it before. And, and that was the only thing that I could think of in this moment.

Like, th these guys, it happens so quickly. There’s no talk, there’s no, what are we going to do? There’s no hesitancy. They just immediately grab and start raping this girl. Um, yeah, and it’s, it’s so shocking to watch. And you’re, you’re right, it’s animalistic, it’s awkward. They’re rolling around in the muds.

They’re half naked, bodies are completely covered in mud. And the guy that played Alan, I saw him interviewed and he said that this was the hardest scene for him. He didn’t want to do it. He tried calling in sick on the day, but that didn’t work. And uh, he realized when he was doing it, it was so brutal.

This girl was fighting back. , you know, so hard. She, she, she launched him off of her and he fell with his naked butt into a puddle of mud. And he said he felt the mud literally shoot up his butt. And that moment made him realize kind of the raw intensity of this. And then he just went even crazier, um, and threw himself into the role and continued.

But, uh, the woman, um, Francesca, who played Faye talks about filming this scene and how she was just horrified and her response is largely real. Uh, you know, trying to tear Alan off of this girl. You hear Deodato talk about it and he says, you know, he talked to this girl beforehand. He casually mentioned somebody casually mentions that she was 14.

Um, he says he talked to her beforehand and told her that they were going to be rough with her, but that they weren’t going to hurt her. and it wasn’t real. But if you watch the scene, either she’s a hell of a good actress or she was in some distress. And, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s hard to watch. Now they all say that when the scene was done, they all went and had lunch together and everything was fine.

But, uh, of all of the scenes, that one, and there are lots of rough scenes, but that one just the depravity of it. And, and in my mind I’m thinking, Ugh, God, nobody would really do that. And then the voice further in the back of my mind. But would they ? I don’t know. Well, I’m, 

Todd: I mean, honestly, like, I think even more now than ever before, uh, it’s easier for me to believe because I see what people do for.

Views and hits and likes it, it gets kind, it gets pretty insane. We have real life examples of this kind of thing, sadly, much more often now than we did when this movie was made. So, uh, no, and that’s why, another reason why I think the movie’s so prescient, it feels more real and more realistic to me now than it even did then.

That people could be this cruel and this brutal just for, you know, I mean, they even talk about it in a couple of the clips. Oh, we’re gonna be famous, we’re gonna be rolling in the money. I’m gonna get a mansion and I’m, and a, and a chick and all that. It can happen. . And so I buy it. I buy it hook, line and sinker.

I bought the reality of that scene. It was very raw, it was very disturbing. And then afterwards, this same, I think it’s this same girl is up on a spike. 

Craig: This is the infa. Yeah. This is another one of the infamous things, and it, I, I remember this from the, the v h VHS cover. Oh, yeah. It was, uh, I, I don’t think that it was a photo or a still, or if it was, it was kind of blurred just a little bit, probably to make it a little bit less graphic, because it is terribly graphic.

But she’s, and this is the scene that I was talking about where Alan is caught smiling, looking up at her, smiling mm-hmm. . And it’s disgusting. She’s on an. Post. Oh, it’s an amazing effect. It is a brilliant effect. Completely impaled from the bottom between her legs, all the way up through her throat, and it’s an enormous, I mean, we’re talking in diameter, probably 10 inches.

This, this huge, oh, 

Todd: she’s off the ground by feet, 

Craig: you know? Oh my gosh. Yeah. It looks, it’s, it’s horrifying. And one would hope that it, you know, was, uh, uh, an excellent special effect, which it was, but you would almost hope that that wasn’t a real person up there, but it is. Mm-hmm. , and, and this is one of the images, this and the final scenes of the documentary footage, these were the ones that reportedly got deodato in trouble.

Now, reportedly the Italian government or police arrested Deodato and the cinematographer. And seized the film and brought them in and accused them. Now, Deodato says, the judge asked him, why did you kill these actors? And believed that they were killed according to Deodato. And according to Legend, he had to bring in all the actors to prove that they were alive.

He had to bring in this girl and demonstrate how this was done. And how it was done was she sat on a bicycle seat on that post, and then she held in her mouth. You know, the, the upper part, it looks fantastic, like I, and, and oh, it’s amazing. Deodato said, you know, that girl just. inexplicably still. Like she was just so still, um, even he couldn’t believe it.

And it, it looks horrible. Um, but it looks, uh, amazing. Now that is one a again, another one of the reasons that the film is so infamous. You know, it was banned all over. It was seized by the Italian government. He had to prove all of this. The guy who plays Alan, I saw him in an interview and he says, I don’t really talk about this.

He says, all I will tell you is I never heard anything about it at the time, and I was not called into court. What that suggests to me is that he is implying. this a, a lot of this story may be sensationalized for publicity. Um, and if that’s the case, and I have no idea if it is, it could be a hundred percent true.

I’m just saying it seemed like this guy was suggesting that some of it may have been sensationalized. And if it was true, it was genius and it worked and it, yeah, made it, made this movie a, uh, a phenomenon really. 

Todd: Yeah. And, and again, picked up by Blair Witch, the guy, the, the Blair Witch people. 

Craig: They claimed they hadn’t seen it.

They claimed they hadn’t seen it and were completely unaware of it. And in fact they say that if they had seen it, they wouldn’t have made Blair Witch, cuz they would’ve felt that they were copying. 

Todd: Interesting. But, but really , I don’t know. 

Craig: I don’t know either. Lots of similarities. Yeah, similarities in that.

I think even the Blair Witch people had a similar deal with, with their actors that they had to disappear. They did, uh, for a while afterwards in the aftermath. Um, but we, you know, we shouldn’t, we shouldn’t leave out, even though I’ve alluded to it, we shouldn’t leave out the finale because the finale’s pretty impressive and it’s entirely brutal.

But honestly, more than anything, I kind of found it satisfying. I felt like, oh yeah, these, these people were awful people. Who got what they deserved and that the natives were, uh, entirely justified in doing what they did. Yeah. , like, I, I, I, I give them a round of applause, , 

Todd: after they stare up at this, uh, after they stage something here by the spike so that Alan can look up at and go, oh, good lord.

It’s unbelievable. It’s, it’s horrible. I can’t imagine the reason for such cruelty. The next shot is they’re in the woods and they’re just surrounded by this tribe. And even though they’re being, um, threatened by this tribe who’s gotten them surrounded, even still, uh, I think it’s Alan is shouting, keep rolling.

We’re gonna get an Oscar for this. Mm-hmm. Jack jumps up on a log, uh, and is aiming his gun to try to shoot those guys. And then I think, doesn’t Mark or Alan shoot Jack? 

Craig: I don’t think so. 

Todd: Something happens because the girl yells and says, what did you do? And he says, no, she was, he was gone or anyway, . Uh, and I thought the implication was that he had shot Jack so that the tribe would kind of be distracted by him and he could get more footage.

Oh, maybe I just missed it. I don’t know. Well, Jack falls down in any way, and they drag him away and, and Alan and Mark are still filming. He’s like, keep filming Mark. I’ll cover you. And you see Jack being held up and they castrate him, which looks 

Craig: incredibly real. I have no idea how they did that. . Yeah. But, but all of this is being filmed on shaky cam because it’s handheld and mm-hmm.

you know, they’re running and, and so everything is, and leaves and branches. Yeah. And, and so everything is quick takes and, and, and shaky takes so they can probably get away. Oh, yeah. With, I don’t know, with, you know, as far as special effects go, but what we see, I mean, you clearly see it happen and it totally looks uncomfortably 

Todd: real.

It looks uncomfortable real. The music here, by the way, is insanely good. You know, the editing and the filmography, just the chaos of it all, the voyeurism of it all. I mean, it’s, it’s pretty crazy. And in a way, in this, in this moment, the movie kind of becomes what it’s criticizing, right? . It’s this very voyeuristic, don’t look away.

You’re gonna see all this horrible real stuff happening to these people. And it’s shot in that manner. Mark’s still talking to the camera and talking about how screwed up and trapped they are. And then the tribe gets Faye again from a distance through the trees and the shaky cam style. We say Faye just screaming her head off as they strip her down and they rape her.

And it is, mm-hmm long and protracted. And it’s horrible. It’s extremely uncomfortable. Uhhuh . And there’s full frontal, I mean, you get it. It’s uncomfortable, you know, not that the other ones weren’t uncomfortable, but this is uncomfortable too. They beat her to death. And then the pretty music comes on again for a moment.

Uhhuh , you know, we had in the beginning and then comes back, they pull her hat off and toss it around. And then it becomes obvious again. It’s almost, it’s, it’s like player witch really . They grab Alan, you know, who’s the one filming apparently. And, uh, the, the camera kind of goes to the sky and spins around and falls to the ground and we see Alan’s head fall down, um, dead in front of the, uh, view of the camera.

And that’s the last bit of the footage that they were able to recover from this crew. And that’s when we’re back in the screening room now, where, uh, everybody looks at each other in silence and they kind of file out. And one of the producers, you know, calls up the projectionist and says, please burn every bit of this, which was just what the anthropologist had to had asked.

Uhhuh . And, uh, he goes out sort of smug and satisfied and lights his pipe and stares up at the, at the jungle of New York City, the skyscrapers and wanders out and says, I wonder who is the real cannibals are. Yeah. and uh, that was a bit on the nose. It 

Craig: it is, 

Todd: but . But he’s saying this throughout the whole movie, Uhhuh.

I mean, he has a whole bit in the middle where he like a long dialogue about it, where he is saying it. And uh, yeah, that’s where I said earlier, I think that the movie is just a little too on the nose at times for now. Especially like, I think we get this without needing to be told directly. And that’s where I think it fails just a little bit.

It’s trying too hard to make this point, but it makes the point brilliantly still, so. Yeah. 

Craig: Um, yeah, I just, I, I don’t know. I, I disagree a little bit. I, I feel like by being that pointed about it, they are just making it very clear. You, I’m talking to you , like, here’s the mirror I’m holding. To you, and maybe I’m just dancing.

That’s not true. I, I, I don’t need it. But I also get like, we are nailing this point home. Hmm. Ultimately, I think it did a pretty good job. And, and so in thinking about the movie as a whole, I would actually encourage people to watch it, especially horror fans because I, I think that it’s, um, I, I can’t say that I think it’s a good movie.

I just think that it’s, it’s really well done. 

Todd: I think it’s extremely well done. It really is. And, and, and, and there’s a genius. It, was it Dolly? Pardon? Who says it takes a lot of money. Look this cheap. Didn’t you quote her a little earlier? Yeah. Yeah. It, it takes a lot of skill to make a movie that, to look, you know, cheap and realistic like this does.

Yeah. and it really, really does . It really does. It’s, it’s fantastic. Uh, I think, honestly, I think that, like I said, like looking at it now, watching it now in the pantheon of horror that we have now, I feel like the movie makes a point that’s already been made, but it hadn’t been made at that time. I think it was much, much more innovative for its time than it is now.

Right. I think we’ve seen lots of other movies that make this point funny games Yes. Makes this point and is, is similarly disturbing in its own way. So that’s why I felt like it just felt like a little too much to be so on the nose, um, because we’ve already seen so much of this already. So I think if you’ve never seen this movie before, you might maybe feel a little bit more like I do about this.

That being said, you also in recommending this movie. Oh, I guess you’ve heard everything we’ve said about it go in full well with all of the trigger warnings and the content warnings, . Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s hard in saying, I would recommend people see this movie. I would also say like, if you were not a fan of, of.

Nobody’s, hopefully nobody’s a fan of sexual violence, but you know, if you have, find this very hard to stomach, if you have particular triggers for this kind of thing, you probably shouldn’t see this movie because it’s, it’s really pervasive. 

Craig: Right. But I think that film students should study this movie.

Like I think that there’s, yeah, this guy, uh, DDO was also, he, I don’t know how old he wast. He was in his nineties right when he passed. Yeah. And, uh, the interview that I saw of his was only from a couple of years ago. So he was very old. And as much as I say that he was kind of an asshole, he also had kind of that charm about him that old men have.

And I don’t know, I didn’t know him personally, so I can’t say one way or the other, but, uh, he was clearly very talented, not only as a filmmaker, but um, in promoting himself. As with this movie at least, I really don’t know, but. Also in recommending this movie. The reason that I would recommend it is because this is just one of many, many, Cannibal movies that came out around this time, and I haven’t seen many of them, but of the ones I’ve seen, this one stands head and shoulders above any of the other ones.

Oh yeah. Like the only other one that I think that we’ve done on the, well, we did, uh, the Green Inferno, which was the original title of this movie, but they changed it because they thought Holocaust was more salacious. But we saw Eli Roth, the Green Inferno, which we didn’t like, and the other one we watched was Cannibal Ferox, which we really didn’t like.

Yeah. And, and, and I think that, uh, the reason that we really didn’t like Cannibal Ox was it was just, it was all of this gratuitous violence and gore just for the sake of it, this movie has something to say. Yeah. And, and, and I, I think that it’s, its message is poignant. I think that it’s relevant even today.

And, and for those reasons, , if you’re at all, if, if you’re at all interested in this subgenre, this cannibal subgenre, at least start here because this is the good one, . 

Todd: Yeah. You’re probably not gonna see a better one than this. Right. . And it’ll be the most disturbing too. . Yeah. And we didn’t talk 

Craig: about the score.

I wish we would have. I love the score. I remember when we watched Never Torture a Duckling or whatever that movie was called. I remember saying that score reminds me of Hannibal or Cannibal Holocaust. Um, turns out this movie, cannibal Holocaust used a little bit of that movie’s score, but you had said something about it, you know, that beautiful music that we had heard.

It is, it’s kind of this over the opening credits and at various parts in the movie, you hear like this sweeping, I don’t know, is it coral or is it syn? Is it synthesizer? I don’t even remember. But it’s very beautiful and especially against. The really violent scenes. It’s a really jarring juxtaposition that just works really, really well.

Again, all of these little elements, the cinematography, the imagery, the, the use of the score, they come together in a really skillful way. But it is a tough movie to watch. It 

Todd: sure is. By the way, don’t torture a duck wig in this movie. Also share the same writer. 

Craig: Really? I didn’t know that. Yep. Well, I’m, I’m 

Todd: with you on all those points, Craig.

Uh, come, go see this movie. Just know what you’re getting into, but know that it’s probably the best cannibal movie that anyway, that we’ve seen, that we, that we think is out there. Right. And there is a point to the violence, and that is really what saves it. You know? It’s what, and, and it’s just really, really well done.

So, um, yeah. Rug Road Deodato will not be making another cannibal. That’s okay. I don’t think he made any more after. Oh, no. He had made one other after this. I think this was part of a trilogy. 

Craig: Oh yeah, that’s, I read that too. I also read that there are six like sequels to this in name only UN couldn’t, unofficial.

Yeah. Yeah. I couldn’t even find them , like I started like googling, like cannibal Holocaust too. I, I did find one movie that. An alternate title was Cannibal Holocaust too. But, uh, if you see any sequels out there, they were just a cash in on the notoriety of this one. They’re not official. Sequel. 

Todd: Yeah. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode.

If you enjoyed this one, please share it with a friend. Uh, you can find us online. If you Google two guys in a Chainsaw podcast, just find our website, find our Facebook page, leave a message for us in any one of those places, and let us know what you thought of this movie, what you thought of this episode, as well as anything you would like us to do in the future, especially if you enjoy our podcast, please consider becoming a patron.

Go to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast, throw a few bucks our way, and, uh, you’ll get access to some mini sos and, uh, write write-ups that we do, uh, full unedited versions of our phone calls and our undying gratitude. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Thanks to Tanya and Chiller Theater for requesting this witchy haunted house story that left us scratching our heads. What is going on here, exactly? Why does this movie have such a cult following online? Why are the people here doing dumb things? And why were we kinda bored through most of it?

We try to answer all these questions and more in our last episode of January. Enjoy, and stay tuned for more fun and games in February!

Superstition (1982)

Episode 321, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. Well, today we, uh, are going continuously into the rabbit hole of early eighties. Um, I would say somewhat obscure films. Yeah, I’ve had my eye on this movie that we’re doing today for quite some time. It also happened to be recommended by.

Listeners, Tanya and uh, someone behind the Moniker Chiller Theater. The name of the movie is Superstition from 1982. It’s an unrated horror movie that was mostly direct to video. I think it was done in 1981. and, uh, had a brief theatrical release in 1982 in Italy, uh, around the same time in Los Angeles, I believe, maybe a couple years later, and then went straight to video and apparently had quite a following 

Craig: in the uk and then got another theatrical release after the success of its video release, I think there, which is weird.

That hardly ever happens. 

Todd: Yeah. In 1985. The movie was sold to me pretty heavily. Uh, it wasn’t just, um, these two people who requested it, but I was reading about it on some horror sites and I acquired it some time ago, and I’ve been, it’s been on my list for quite a while. It was spoken quite highly of as being this cool mashup of, uh, like a diallo with slasher sensibilities from the early eighties and really gory, and really creepy and uns.

Yeah, so it was sure. Something that’s for sure. . 

Craig: So I had never heard of it. Uh, and like the box art didn’t look familiar at all. No. Um, I looked at, I looked at the cast list. Nobody, there’s one person in the whole movie that I recognized from something Justin W Right. The 

Todd: little kid. The kid . 

Craig: Yeah. I’m surprised you knew.

He played like the annoying younger brother and a lot of things in the eighties. He, he’s a funny guy. Yeah. Uh, he was in, um, just one of the guys that, like the one where the, the really hot chick dressed up as a guy in her high school. That was, he was in that, he was good. That was on TV a lot. Uhhuh . So I recognized him, but that was, that was pretty much it.

But I. Looking forward to it because I, you know, I, I try not to read too much about these things before we actually watch them, especially if I don’t know much about them. I prefer to kind of go in blind. But I did read the, uh, like viewer reviews on I M D B and they’re glowing, like these are glowing reviews about how this is, you know, uh, A forgotten gem of eighties horror and like this is eighties horror done right, and I can’t believe more people don’t know about this movie.

I don’t get it. . Oh, 

Todd: I don’t, I don’t trust anything on the internet anymore. Look every time. We go down these rabbit holes with these supposed and forgotten gems, it gets baffling. And then we’ll find some movie that’s got mixed reviews and we absolutely love it. So yeah, maybe we’re just outside the pulse of of mainstream society or something, because.

I found this movie to be weird and hokey and pedestrian and almost boring at times. Yeah, it was 

Craig: boring. I really didn’t enjoy it at all. It was really kind of stupid. Um, and it felt long and it’s not long. It’s only an hour and 25 minutes long. Oh man. But it sure felt longer than that. Yeah. Gosh, I don’t know.

This one’s gonna be a tough one cuz I don’t like, I almost felt like nothing really happens. Well, um, I guess people die, but it’s, yeah. It’s, it’s a haunted. and you get a little bit of, you know, eventually a little bit of backstory, which is a fine backstory. There’s nothing wrong with it. Um, nothing particularly unique or original.

And you do get a relatively, I suppose, kind of creative kill every 10 minutes or so. But that’s it. Like Yeah. There’s, there’s not, there’s not really much notable to say about it. 

Todd: It’s so. God, I don’t know, like nobody involved in this movie except for that. Justin kid is really known for much of anything.

The director, James W. Roberson didn’t do much. 

Craig: No. He did like three other movies. The director did a lot and continues to do a lot of work in cinematography. Like That’s true, that’s true camera work. Um, but yeah, he only directed a few other things and some of the, like the guy who’s the lead guy, I guess, uh, James Howten was in soaps and like nighttime soaps, uh, in the eighties.

And the guy that plays the dad. Of the family that moves into the house. Um, he had done quite a bit. There was, I don’t know, a couple of things I recognized him from, but yeah, pretty much everybody else. Mm, not much, uh, no. Going on. Not that that matters. I mean, 

Todd: no, it doesn’t, 

Craig: it no great. Typically doesn’t matter.

And that Right, and that’s, that’s par for the course with these types of eighties movies, which is why. I was surprised because you say, you know, maybe we’re, we don’t have our finger on the pulse. No. This should be right up our alley. Hmm. You know, this should be exactly the kind of thing that we usually really enjoy and really enjoy talking about.

We of all people are incredibly nostalgic for eighties horror. Yeah. And, and we, we do it all the time. We talk about it all the time. We, some of our most fun episodes have been talking about these kind of movies, but this one just doesn’t, like I said, there’s just nothing. Particularly interesting to say about it.

I mean, it’s, yeah, it’s not, it’s not so bad. It’s good. It’s not so good. It’s, no, sadly. Yeah. There aren’t any like standout performances or Okay. It’s a, you know, we’ve done a couple movies where, okay, it’s a terrible movie, but it’s worth it alone for this scene. No, there, there’s nothing like that here. Uh, yeah.

It’s, uh, it’s unfortunate. I, I, I want, you know, I try to be a positive person. I like to have positive things to say about things , but I just, I don’t know. I don’t even know 

Todd: where to start here. Yeah, I don’t wanna say it doesn’t have focus, it just doesn’t, like you said earlier, there’s not a lot happening.

I mean, I feel like a lot’s happening, but there’s not really a bulk behind it. It’s like a skeleton of a plot without much hanging on it. I, I don’t really know how to describe it. I mean, it’s like there is a plot, there’s a backstory. I mean, I feel like on. This had some promise. It’s like one of those horrors that’s kind of rooted in history.

This, this witch from 8 16 92, you know, who was put to death and not wrongfully though. Not 

Craig: even, right? Not wrongfully. 

Todd: Yeah, not wrongfully put to death by a priest and kind of condemned to this , this pond. . Yeah. Not a lake, you know, not an ocean, but a pond. I’m sure we’ll get to all this later, but I have so many questions about the backstory behind this movie.

And then, uh, you know, modern day, there’s like house upon house upon house upon house that’s built on this land and each, you know, it seems to be cursed land because yeah, everybody dies. Everybody dies all the time, yet people still wanna move in. , stop building 

Craig: houses there. It’s 

Todd: like, what is wrong with you?

Owned by a church by now. And it’s almost like an afterthought. They’re like, oh yeah, we have this house. We almost forgot we own it. What went on there? Oh, there was a murder there. Inspector last, uh, last week or yesterday? Oh shit. We thanks for. It’s gonna go 

Craig: into foreclosure if we don’t do something about it.

And, and if we don’t do something about it, it’s gonna get torn down. Who cares? Nobody, like only a couple old freaks live over there anyway. And like, you’re not doing anything with it. Let it go. What is, I don’t, what’s the point? 

Todd: Stupid . It’s so, so silly. 

Craig: Like you said on paper. I think it could be okay. In fact, I read that eventually, or eventually.

Originally it was much simpler in scope, like, uh, It was just a, a story about a family who moves into a house that’s haunted by a witch. That’s it. Then they added some other characters, like they added the character of there’s this mute that like Is the caretaker’s son or something? I don’t know. Oh boy.

I don’t know. They added his character. I don’t know why. Because you could excise his character from the movie entirely and lose nothing. Well, it’s 

Todd: almost like the movie has already excised his character, like we’re introduced to him and then he’s completely insignificant. Even when he comes in at the end, it doesn’t even matter.

Craig: Yeah, . No, it doesn’t. It makes absolutely no difference. He’s kind of a red herring, but not even really. And then there’s this little girl. Character who keeps popping up randomly and for no reason 

Todd: like it. I have no idea. I still have no idea what her significance is to this story. 

Craig: Well, I, I do cuz it’s revealed at the end.

It’s dumb. Oh, okay. So anyway, what I was, what I was getting at was this could. , it’s very much in the same vein as the Amityville Horror. In fact, that would be the movie that I would compare it the most to. Mm-hmm. Because it doesn’t really pull any punches. Uh, it is pretty gory and pretty much everybody dies, including the kid, which.

Doesn’t happen a lot. Yeah. That was 

Todd: surprising. Yeah. 

Craig: Uhhuh, . And, uh, so, you know, it, it’s similar in that way. It even has kind of some similarities with, uh, Poltergeist. Um, and maybe even like, I was kind of the feel of it, the feel of the movie except for the Gore, which. Fairly graphic. It almost felt kinda like a, the watcher in the woods kind of deal, witchy housed and Mm, 

Todd: you’re right cuz the old lady.

Craig: Right. And it, it just kind of had that feel to the cinematography of it. But I liked all of those movies. And I didn’t like this one. . 

Todd: I felt it also had sort of JLo aspirations. It was almost, in a way, plot-wise, almost as baffling as your typical Italian JLo movie is. There’s a plot there and you can kind of discern it, but it doesn’t always make a lot of sense, and there’s incredible leaps of.

Logic that characters are able to make in interesting ways, and it’s going for style. I, I can tell, I can say that the director definitely was going for something fairly stylish. I think some of the cinematography in here is, is spooky, or at least trying to be spooky. There’s a lot of P O V shots that could be creepy, but they really.

and there’s some special effects work in here that’s trying really hard. Like 

Craig: what? I don’t even know what you’re talking about because I don’t know, like I just watched it today. I just watched it a few hours ago and I don’t, I, I don’t remember anything about it cuz I was bored. Uh, 

Todd: yeah. , well, I thought early in the movie when, when you kind of don’t know what’s going on, there’s a lot of p o v stuff of somebody creeping ar you know, it’s, it’s obviously like somebody’s creeping around and you pop that pops in and out.

toward the end of the movie when the witch kind of manifests herself. You never really see her, but there’s a lot of smoke and a lot of shadows and yeah, the creepy, you know, long fingernails and hands and stuff. And I thought fairly interesting camera angles, though. Nothing that really calls too much attention to itself, which is sometimes good.

It was very, you know, it was lit in spooky ways and, and, you know, beams of light here and there, and blues and reds and stuff. ultimately, I guess like you, I was just kind of bored with it. So none of that really mattered because I didn’t care what really, what was going on. After a while, it just, no, it was like somebody was telling me, narrating a story to me, Uhhuh, , you know, and I’m just watching the plot unfold.

But, uh, That’s about it. I wasn’t very emotionally invested in it. No, 

Craig: no. And it’s, and it’s not scary. Like No, sadly no. I didn’t think it was scary at all. I mean, it’s a little bit, people certainly die. Um, and there’s blood and like some of that is violent. Like one girl gets her head like nailed to the ground.

like

Todd: your eye with a giant wooden spike and a hammer. Yeah. I mean, And it’s, and it doesn’t pull too many punches on that either. No. But, uh, no. So 

Craig: it is, I mean, there is that violence and, and stuff, but just the story isn’t even really all that interesting. Like, it, it opens on this, I say spooky old house kind of, it just looks like an old abandoned house.

There’s not really anything all that spooky about it. It’s 

Todd: big. It’s not even that spooky. . It’s a weird house too, right? It’s, it’s very almost kind of modern looking. It seems kind 

Craig: of modern. Uhhuh, . There’s one point where the mom comes from the upstairs to the downstairs and she like, the stairwell is huge.

Like, I was like, what is this? It looks like a stairwell in a castle or, but very like eighties, modern. Yeah. Cuz the 

Todd: walls are like a smooth marble up and down with no decoration on them at all. Just like a sconce here and there. It almost reminded me of a ma, like a Maza. Lium in a way. Kind of, kind of. I don’t know if that was what they were like kind of going for, but then you come to the kitchen and it’s this tiny little kitchen you’d find in like a very small like colonial American house.

It’s really bizarre. Actually, I have 

Craig: no, I, right. I have no idea if this is true because there’s really not, I, I couldn’t find much information about this movie or the production or anything, but I almost got the sense that they just found a location and just kind of built the script around it. Like, that’s why they had to say, oh, lots of houses have been built here.

But, um, all of the people died and all of the houses were destroyed because it’s not an. Fan. You know, like it’s not a traditional old spooky house. It’s just some random modern 

Todd: house. Much more interesting houses have been built here in the past. Yeah. . But we’re sadly stuck with this. Not spooky, very modern house

That’s exactly 

Craig: right. And it, it starts out, so this couple is, uh, parked. Apparently this is a make out spot. God, there, uh, at some point it’s no deal why the. Specter, there’s an inspector. At some point the cop is like explaining what happened. Cuz these kids, uh, the kids who, um, were parked there making out, I don’t think they get killed.

It’s a prank. A couple of guys, young guys, Charlie and Artie, Charlie and Artie, they’re playing a prank and you know, they like toss some dummies at this card to scare these. Kids out or whatever. Yeah. Um, but then they are both looking around the house and , um, Artie gets killed by a microwave. Ghost. . . 

Todd: It’s so weird.

Artie’s walking around. He’s creeping around in the house. Oh, well. Well, Charlie’s out in the bushes. He throws like a dummy at the kids in the car. And I guess Artie’s task is to scream Manuel like a witch from the inside the house. because then he kind of wanders downstairs and the house is just full of junk.

And the kitchen Uhhuh, , there’s just a microwave sitting there. It turns on the door opens, and then some kind of unseen force throws him at the ceiling and he falls down. And then we cut to Charlie, who’s like, Artie, Artie, where are you? And he probes around through the house for a while. And there’s these p o shots, like somebody’s looking at ’em.

There might have been a jump scare too in there. I kind. I mean, you know, I was, I was willing to go with the movie at this point. He wasn’t unlike a lot of other openings for other more promising films. Then he goes into that room and of course, uh, Artie has nowhere to be seen, but the microwave lights up and you see something’s in the microwave.

The microwave door swings open and. Artie’s head is inside there and it explodes and it explodes. 

Craig: So Charlie runs while the witch laughs. Ominously. At this point, we don’t know it’s a witch, I don’t think. I don’t know, but it’s like a woman’s laughter. No, who knows. Um, and then he tries to go out the window and he’s trying to raise the window, but it won’t raise.

So instead the upper pain comes down and he starts to climb through that, but then it starts to raise again and literally cuts him in 

Todd: half. That was kind of cool. I like. I was down with this. It was kind of 

Craig: cool and like one of the, one of the reviews I read was like, I knew in the first 10 minutes that you know, they weren’t gonna pull any punches and this was gonna be an awesome ride.

Well, yeah. Okay. I’ll give it that. This opening sequence was, Okay. Like nothing spectacular, but it was all right. It could have been good from there, but really no. So then we meet, um, Reverend David who is tasked with taking care of the shek or Shara or whatever place it’s called, and we hear that lots of houses have been build billed there.

And the inspector, I don’t even know what his name is, I just called him the inspector cuz he’s always around. He’s this older. 

Todd: Inspector Sturgis and his trustee, right-hand man, Jack Hollister. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. And Inspector Sturgis is like, uh, telling the priest about this place and he’s like, you also have standing water on the property.

Black pond. Kids like the skinny dip. They had midnight and sometimes they drown. Inspector, the property is posted against trespassing. It really doesn’t matter. It’s a make out place. It always has been. I got my first. Uh, nevermind. . 

Todd: Well, can I also ask you, I mean, come on, this takes place in the US right? I don’t know.

Where in the United States have we ever called police detectives? Inspectors? I don’t know. Isn’t that a British thing? Inspector so-and-so from somewhere, 

Craig: I guess. I don’t know. Oh God. Yeah. I mean, I’ll, it seemed like all the guys in the, the Diallo movies or inspector somebody, maybe that’s what they were going for.

I don’t know. Uh, but anyway, what, like, and the, the thing is like, I usually take way too many notes. I take pages and pages of notes. Then I don’t even look at them. I have like half a page of notes on here because hardly anything happens. I had 

Todd: to have a lot of notes just to keep track of all the characters cuz we’re introduced to a lot of people really quickly, kind of well, and I was trying really hard to keep 

Craig: their name.

Arlen, the mute guy who is, I guess the son of the caretaker, but the caretaker is this little old woman who just stays, her name’s Elvira, and she’s this creepy, weird looking old lady who really never leaves her shack. So I don’t know what kind of caretaker she is. 

Todd: She’s a pretty shitty 

Craig: caretaker. Yeah.

The place is in complete disrepair, so to call her the caretaker is a little bit misleading, but whatever. Yeah, that’s what they call her and arlen’s. Her kid who’s a mute and doesn’t talk to anybody, just runs away. When anybody tries to talk to ’em or whatever. Some investigator is like standing on the dock at the pond, and for unexplained reasons, all the change falls.

Pants, like through his pocket, his down his pant 

Todd: leg. What was that about? ? 

Craig: I have no idea. Like the ghost pulled a thread or something. Did he 

Todd: have a sudden hole break open in his pocket? Oh God. 

Craig: I don’t know. I know. But he bends over to pick it up and then he gets pulled into the pond. Yeah. David, David says he’s talking to the inspector because they’re just always there.

That’s the other thing that bothers me. Yes. Like eventually, eventually they move a family into this house. Father David and the inspector and the cops are always there. Like 

Todd: they’re there every day 

Craig: all the time. Are they moving into all day, every day? all day and all night. Every day they’re there. . It doesn’t make any 

Todd: sense.

Also, this pond, it’s, it’s a tiny little pond, like back in 1692 or whatever. I, God, this pond is probably, should have been all dried up by now, or at least dried up, you know. 20 times over the ensuing, you know, 300 years or so. So it’s kind of silly when you see the size of this thing, but it’s got a little dock on it for tiny little boats.

to like paddle three paddles and get to the other side. It’s really kind of lame. and then, you know, they’re so, they’re all kind of around the pond and David’s like, I guess they can’t find this guy in this tiny little pond 

Craig: because he got pulled in. Did we say that 

Todd: something reaches out of the pond and pulls him in?

Yeah, that’s right. So they know he’s fallen into the pond. They know he’s presumably dead, but they can’t find him. So David’s like, I’m gonna drain the pond. And later a scene or two later, the inspector kind of chastises him. His shitty pumping equipment or not having enough funds, like not spending the church funds on adequate pumping equipment.

Like what are they supposed to stock? A 

Craig: water pump. Like something, yeah, something is, I know he says it’s like, you know, it keeps, it keeps getting C clogged with silt or something. I’m like, oh, it must be a ghost silt or something. So apparently the. 

Todd: The police and nobody else has any, uh, you know, resources to pump this tiny ass pond or get anyone down in there to drag up whatever body might be in there.

But they 

Craig: do find a big cross in there. Yeah. They find this cross in there. It ends up being important later on. I didn’t even write it down. At first, I’m like, who cares? So what? . Oh boy. You found trash in the pond. Congratulations. Woohoo. Mm-hmm. . But then this, that priest who’s like chastising him or whatever, they walk into another room where I guess there’s construction going on, like why they are renovating this crappy house.

I, I don’t know, whatever. But there’s construction going on and. Something that doesn’t happen happens like , like some guy’s cutting boards with a circular saw. Mm-hmm. and the blade of the circular saw just comes off but continues spinning at maximum velocity and goes all the way. Like it, it, it hits this priest in the chest, shoots him back into a chair, and then continues to saw completely through his body.

Yeah. Before coming to a stop as it drops to the floor at the. What, and nobody thinks that this is weird. Yeah. like nobody even really comments about it. Nobody like it just happens and it’s over and then carry 

Todd: on. . Yeah. They’re like, oh, that terrible accident with that priest. Like what? This is like some weird supernatural shit.

also, they don’t 

Craig: care. David meets this little girl, Mary. She’s just this little blonde girl and white. That’s it. She just pops up every once in a while. That’s all. They don’t 

Todd: care either. They don’t know where she came from. They don’t question it. No. 

Craig: And she like, when he meets her, he’s like, he said, do you live here?

Like, no. You would obviously know she doesn’t live there. You idiot, but, but she’s like, no, I used to live here. It’s like, okay, well just hang out. Like whatever, and then they just don’t pay any attention to him. Okay. So then they move in this family, it’s the Leahy family. And the dad, I guess, is also a minister, though.

They never make any mention of that again. But I, the only reason I know is because he’s listed as Reverend something. In the cast list. But anyway, the dad is George, the mom’s Melinda. They have two teenage daughters, Anne and Cheryl, A blonde and a Burnett. Mm-hmm. . And then the, the son Justin, who is that kid from the eighties that I recognize.

He’s really young here. I don’t know that I’d ever necessarily seen him this young. Mm-hmm. , but then there’s like an inspector or something. I don’t even. I swear I had to keep going back and rewinding this, I think because I really wasn’t paying attention because I was just bored. Uh, , I don’t even know what happened.

Like this inspector is down in the basement or something and then all of a sudden he falls into a shaft and gets hung. What is this? Is it like an elevator shaft? Is it a dumb waiter, shaft? There’s some 

Todd: elevator. They refer to it as an elevator shaft. I don’t know why there’s an elevator in this, in this house.

Two-story 

Craig: house that they don’t use and 

Todd: why it extends down. In the basement, it goes down and not up . So I don’t know where that’s going. Yeah. But he, he, he pops his head into it and then suddenly I think it’s like the cables jut out and wrap around his neck and pull him in, or he gets caught up in the cables and hunk.

And at the same time, Justin, the, the boy come, kind of comes in. I think he hears something, kind of comes in to see what’s up and he walks around and he doesn’t find anything, but he doesn’t find the guy either. But Mary comes up behind him and says Hi, and then leaves again. And then, uh, we, we, we cut back to the pond and the girls are swimming in there.

It’s the blonde girl, she’s in the water. The other girl’s, Cheryl is sunning herself and she starts screaming in the water and says, something’s got my foot. Somebody’s got my. And David’s there too, and the inspector’s there, they’re all just hanging out. Of course he is. . Then he pulls her out and there’s a severed hand attached to her leg, like it tried to grab 

Craig: Right.

Which I guess was the hand of the guy that got pulled into the pond. Yeah, but they dragged the pond and never found him, I guess, which is also. Unexplained God, what else? So then Inspector Sturgis tells David about the Montclair family who used to live there. just out of nowhere, like this is just random exposition.

Oh, by the way, this other family lived here, but they all died . One of them was hung and one of them got spiked to the attic floor, and one of them was just torn apart. Just so you know, , I. Right. They never talk about it like again, . I, I guess maybe it’s foreshadowing because one of them gets their head spiked to the attic floor later.

I don’t know God. Mm-hmm. . And then for, for reasons that I don’t understand, the girl who almost round is sleeping in her bed when she all of a sudden has visions of all of the murders that have happened that we’ve seen so far, she has visions of them. Plus I think she also has some visions of the past, but that just randomly happens.

And then, Justin finds the dead guy in the basement and presumably gets killed. I mean, he is, he’s dead. Cause we, the only time we see him again is later when we see his body. Um, but I don’t think we really saw what happened to him. I feel like he just gets 

Todd: grabbed or something. Yeah, kind. He kind of gets grabbed and then he goes missing.

And then it seems like their new task is to find Justin where the heck he went. But also like there’s a scene where George, who has a baffling role in this. He just kinda wanders around in sort of a semi dazed Stupor. Yeah. Like he’s not even engaged in life. It’s so weird. And he wanders into the basement and he pulls out a bottle and starts drinking from it.

Ju you know, actually this is before Justin disappears, but Justin interrupts him and he kind of hides it and then he goes upstairs and we see the bottle. Ominously, you know, tip over of its own accord and spill out the liquor again. All this doesn’t end up meaning anything. No, except that. Ooh, the house is spooky right then I think it’s, uh, David is talking to the lady, uh, next door.

Elvira the caretaker. Yeah. And she’s real, being really cagey about everything. He asked for the history of the house and do you know where your son is? 

Craig: I told you he is lost to me forever. 

Todd: You say that as if you think he’s. He 

Craig: is in a secret place his father knew and his father and his. He protects his mistress who dominate you.

His mistress. 

Todd: He 

Craig: guard her, protects her cruelties. Her leavings. He guard you against her. Oh my God, I missed all of this. Oh God, I missed all that. So is the, is the suggestion then that that mute guy is working for the witch? Uh, I guess that would kind of make sense. Ultimately, is she, is she the mistress 

Todd: now that you mention it?

It might be God, but she, she says he’s being held there by his mistress, but he’s also guarding them from her. And Hollister just kind of dismisses her as loony and walks off. It’s all kind of a very stage. Dumb interaction. Really? 

Craig: It is, it’s dumb. I mean it like, she literally is like hanging out the window of her cottage , like it’s just dumb.

And, uh, she, she says she used to only be able to come out at night, but they removed the cross from the pond, so now she can come out whenever she wants. Okay. Who cares? Like , what a stupid plot point. Like why do we need to know that? Whatever she’s out, who cares? Yeah. Um, but, but she tells David, you must complete the ritual with fire o Okay.

Like, yeah. What ritual lady? Like if, if you’ve got something to say to spit it 

Todd: out. Well, she does. You don’t, she does tell David to check the archives of St. Luke’s for more information. You know, he kind of runs off, he leaves the house finally and goes to St. Luke’s to check the archives. Meanwhile, Sturgiss is gonna stay over for supper.

this investigator, oh my God, it’s so hilarious. They’re like, uh, try to get David to stay for supper. And, uh, he’s like, no, I gotta go check the archives. But you know, inspector Sturgiss will want to, and Sturgiss is very in interested in staying for supper and he’s also gonna help them find Justin. . And so anyway, he goes and uh, he ends up at the archives.

David, right? Cheryl’s now talking. Oh yeah. And then her dad . I love it. David goes upstairs, he can’t find Justin anywhere. He goes upstairs. Cheryl just suddenly starts talking trash about her dad, Cheryl, who we’ve barely seen. Her dad, who we’ve barely seen. Mom. 

Craig: It’ll be all right. Daddy’s down there. It’ll be all right.

Oh, sure. Daddy’s down there. He knows what to do. Daddy always knows just exactly what to do. Cheryl don’t, especially when he wants to run lives. That’s a crackup, isn’t it? He’s a burnout and he’s trying to run my life, Cheryl. He can’t do anything, right? He’s a waste mom. A burnout. Shut your bitchy. That was my favorite part of the movie.

Oh, so hilarious. That was the only part I liked. Oh, I’m, I, that’s one. You know, all the time in movies, there are lines and I’m like, oh my God. I, I just need to pull that out all like, I, I just am gonna start saying to you, shut your bitchy mouth, . Oh, it’s too good. It’s too good. I love that. It, and, and it was just this tension, like this family tension.

Comes out of nowhere and leads nowhere. Yeah. Like, I don’t know if, if they were trying to suggest, because this happens in other haunted house movies, like Right Amityville, like, like the, the malevolent force starts to have an effect on the people and they, maybe they start lashing out in anger or doing things uncharacteristic of themselves or whatever.

But if that’s meant to be the suggestion, it totally falls flat because, Nothing else comes of it. They just have this little spat and move on. It’s 

Todd: so infrequent and it’s sudden and it’s melodramatic and that it’s done and never spoken of again. No, but David, 

Craig: meanwhile, he’s a The only go. Yeah. He finds, he finds some old book.

Oh God. But you know, it’s research. It’s the research mode. It’s so stupid. I know he finds some old book in the church basement. No, he’s 

Todd: just with the priest in the church basement. There are like two shelves there and the priest walks through. Oh, here’s a book I’ve never noticed before, I guess, right?

Look, it’s the Omans. Malorum or something like that. Wait, that’s the book from the Spanish Inquisition. Yes. The Order of Exorcism Punishment by Heresy and the Methods of Extracting Confessions. It’s written in English. You see old style. What the I 

Craig: didn’t get this at all. I know. No, it doesn’t even make any sense.

None of it makes sense. It’s Stu, it’s just a device. It’s a stupid, uh, exposition device to explain what happened in the end. And so he reads in 30 seconds, you know, he immediately finds the right page. This story of. Of Alandra shek who was a witch, and the town’s people like tied her up to a giant pole and, uh, drown her.

And she was a witch. You know, like when they’ve got her, she like, she, uh, she speaks in this scary demonn voice. And then, yeah, this is all flashback, Uhhuh and yeah, to like the 16 hundreds or whatever. And then when they. Um, erected this pole that she’s tied to right next to the, the pond. I mean, it’s probably a 10 foot beam that she’s tied to.

Then her face like starts 

Todd: contorting bladder effects on 

Craig: her forehead, Uhhuh , like the demonn is coming out or something. So they drown her. And then it just basically just says that bad shit happened to the townspeople afterwards. Like a bunch of people died 

Todd: and the priest like says, some incantation says something, let this cross like, uh, seal you here forever, as long as it stays in the pond or whatever.

So he tosses the cross into the pond too after her and. So I think the fact that they pulled the cross out of the pond is what supposedly set her loose. Even though shit was going down before they took the cross outta the pond just apparently was happening at night. So, you know, she was only like, right.

Ugh. It’s so weird and I don’t get it. This is the Spanish Inquisition, but this is America. I, I, I 

Craig: don’t have any idea what’s going on. It’s dumb . I, I guess they were maybe using the methods from the Spanish Inquisition on this woman because she was a witch. It doesn’t matter. It’s stupid. It there, there’s really no, okay.

It’s haunted. We get it. There’s a witch and she’s haunted. Fine. Whatever. Okay, so meanwhile back at the house, the inspector find, I don’t know, he realizes that, The basement is like bigger than the rest of the house. Yes. Or something. Yes. So, so he, he, he thinks, oh, there must be like a secret entrance or something in the ground outside.

Yes. Here, let me dig in this one particular spot for five seconds. Right. Until I find this enormous secret hatch. 

Todd: It’s an inch. It’s basically, A big wooden trap door in the ground that’s been covered by some straw. He, he lifts it up, looks down, sees a door down there, an underground door that leads to some underground place and is like, okay, you wait here and guard this, closes it and decides to go into the basement and break through the wooden wall.

Why don’t you go through the freaking door? Just go in the door. I know. I’m thinking like Justin had gone into the basement and like clawed his way through a wall and boarded it up behind him. It made no sense. 

Craig: No, it doesn’t make any sense at all. Oh God. Um, we, we, we get, we go back to David for just a second until we find out that the priest who was responsible for the witch’s execution was pressed to death.

In, in what? I don’t know what that was. Was that supposed to be a wine press? I guess? Yeah. I wasn’t sure either. So then we back to the inspector. He’s looking for the hidden room, which he immediately finds. Yeah. And it’s a secret bedroom with the body of the worker who had died in the shaft. I think so. I wasn’t sure.

But anyway. And Arlen, the mute is also in there and he’s. Fights the cop, but he gets knocked out by the, uh, inspector and gets taken away in handcuffs and we never see him again. Again, like the, yeah. There’s no purpose to this character at all. It’s so obvious that he was just written in and they say like, uh, I guess they rented it.

They ri they wrote him and Mary in to make it more interesting. Well, they failed because it’s not more interesting. It’s just confusing and stupid. Yeah. Um, then the inspector gets dragged away by the witch. The witch by the way, is just this shadowy figure with like demonn black arms and, and enormous like demonn claws.

You never see it. 

Todd: Yeah. We never see her. We just see the arm with the 

claw. 

Craig: Yeah. Right. And then once there is a image that is reminiscent of like the box art, which is just like a tall shrouded figure in silhouette. We see that one time. But that’s the most, uh, we ever see of the switch. 

Todd: Yeah. And I love during this entire ordeal, the inspector who has told George, you go upstairs and you stay up there and you don’t come down like, no, I need to be with you.

This is my son. No, you go. I don’t know why. I don’t know why George couldn’t join them, you know, in their little excursion, but, okay. Very obedient. George goes upstairs and is not gonna leave his bedroom for anything. His wife is like, they’re hearing all these noises and some screaming and all that, and she’s like, we need to go down, see what’s going on.

He’s like, Nope. He told me not to go down. I don’t think so, Steve, 

Craig: that’s wrong. So he does, so the mom goes down by herself to check stuff out and the, like, the lights are flashing and she finds her kid hanging upside down from the ceiling at like, I don’t know, he’s got big, long scratches all on his face and on his torso.

Yeah. I, I was, I don’t know. I figured he was dead because he had disappeared, but I, I admit that I was a little bit surprised. Yeah, because he is really young, I would say he’s. 12. Um, like prepubescent, he’s still got a prepubescent voice. Yeah. Uh, so I was kind of surprised. But then again, you didn’t 

Todd: expect kids to die in horror movies like 

Craig: this?

Usually not. But in this movie, I actually kind of figured because it seemed, unless there was gonna be some, you know, reversal of fortune and they were gonna win, it seemed like everybody was gonna die. That’s what’s always happened historically, according to everybody. Mm-hmm. . Um, so, . So whatever. He’s dead, um, she gets somehow trapped in the kitchen and the witch supernaturally throws her around a little bit.

Mm-hmm. David arrives at the house and like Elvira hangs out her window and say, you’re the cross is your only hope. Okay. Thanks 

Todd: lady. He closes the door. She, oh, this caretaker is not doing a great job. No, it’s dumb. But he’s got two cans of gasoline, I guess he. , he’s gonna burn her because I guess a combination of what Elvira said and which lore, I dunno.

He’s got a couple gans of gas on, but he sets ’em down. He runs up into the house and he finds George, who’s still just standing in a stupor Now he’s downstairs though, and he is like, you, you gotta help me, Melinda. She’s, she’s trapped in the kitchen and he’s like, okay, alright. Where is she? Well, she’s over here.

They open up the kitchen door, they look inside, she’s not there. He says, oh, I swear. She was just, And then he just leaves and he like, you could have checked the stairs to the basement. You could have checked the door that goes outside, but he is like, there’s no time for this. David runs upstairs and grabs the two girls and tries to bring them down.

Craig: Just Anne, because one of the girls, 

Todd: the, well, he grabs both of ’em, but. Cheryl hangs back. Oh, that’s right. That’s right. Because she hears some voices or whatever. In the meantime, David gives the keys to Anne. The blonde chick tells her, go out the front door, get in my car, and drive away and leave. Why? What?

D shouldn’t she wait for you? Like how are you planning to leave right. With all these other people here? Uhhuh, . , but she can’t get out the front door, so David 

Craig: uses the cross to blow. Yes. . 

Todd: What was that? 

Craig: He just, he just thrusts the cross out the door and the door explodes. Like huge explosion out. Yeah. So I guess crosses can make things blow up.

I don’t know. Uh, so, so whatever, Anne runs out, uh, and then the dad finds the mom’s body in a. And then he gets killed. The witch kills the dad by blowing up a mirror in his face. Mm-hmm. . Um, meanwhile the witch is upstairs, staking Cheryl’s head to the ground, . All of this is happening at the same time. And then, uh, David like, is trying, he’s trying to get away.

I think maybe he sees her with her head. Steak to the ground, but then the witch appears. Right? And so he takes off running. Yeah. This is where she’s in silhouette. Yeah. He takes off running and he, he like jumps over the banister and falls down the stairs and the cross breaks, and I was like, oh no. Yeah, but I don’t know.

I, I guess it’s still okay 

Todd: until this moment he’s able to sta her off of this cross. It’s like, Like, she reaches her hand out towards him, and then he swings around with the cross and it’s like, ah, comes back. And then she, he kinda like, goes a couple more inches, then comes again, and he moves the cross in front of him.

It’s like, ah, it’s, it’s so hokey. Well, and 

Craig: then she, the witch comes like slowly down the stairs, like approaching him and it’s, it’s very ominous. And he just picks up this broken cross and like flashes it at her and she just disappears. Like, yeah, she’s just gone. Suddenly she’s not there. And he just thinks that everything’s over.

Like, oh, I did it, I guess. And so he goes, he goes outside and he opens up his van door and Anne’s dead body kind of rolls out. So I guess getting her out of the house didn’t do any good. So he sets the pond on fire. He sets 

Todd: the pond on fire. What? I don’t know what this guy’s thinking, but, uh, I don’t either.

I don’t get it. But he dumps the gasoline in the pond. He sets it on fire. Suddenly Mary shows up. We have not seen Mary for most of the movie. Suddenly she’s back. Right? And I, I don’t get this at all. He thinks it’s done. I guess he thinks setting the pond on fire fixed everything. There was nothing dramatic about him setting the pond on fire.

He just does it. Mary shows. and, uh, he says, it’s over, Mary, don’t worry. Uh, the witches dead we’re safe. And she said she would’ve 

Craig: been if the witch had been home, which again, doesn’t really make any sense. But what I read, I had no idea what was going on. Even though it ki it was kind of suggested.

Apparently Mary is also the witch. Like, just in another form. No way. Um, no way. Yeah, she, she is also the witch just in a different form. And so he stabs her with the cross. 

Todd: Does he I thought she just took it. 

Craig: No, I think he stabs her with it. Wow. I think he like stabs her in the chest with it, cuz remember at the bottom of it broke, so it was sharp at the bottom.

So I, I could be wrong. I wasn’t really paying attention, but 

Todd: I thought she was taking the cross and, and she said, you can’t kill me. And then the witch kind of like the witches disembodied voice is screaming, you don’t have the power to destroy me. And then Mary jumps into the pond. Uh, see, I 

Craig: thought he stabbed her and she caught on fire and fell in the pond.

I thought Mary was 

Todd: having like a screaming conversation with the witch. I don’t know. 

Craig: I think it’s just the two voices. I think it, I think they’re both the same person. It’s just the voices are going back and forth. But anyway, she falls and she’s like burning in the pond or whatever, and then I guess David thinks it’s all over.

He is just standing there. She turns around to walk away, but the witch hand comes out of the water and the witch laughs and grabs David, David by the leg and pulls him into the pond. And that’s it. The end. Everybody’s dead. We’re exactly where we were at the beginning. I guess the church can send more people out next week, to renovate this house or whatever.

It’s stupid. 

Todd: Oh, . What a dumb movie. I just, oh my God. Seriously. I did. In a way, it felt a lot like one of these old Lucci FCI movies that’s just bonkers off the wall in a whole bunch of stuff’s happening. But you don’t really know what it is, but it’s at least, it’s like stylish and it, it’s kind of interesting.

And there’s some gore and there’s some. Camera work and like viscerally engaging. This movie is just, it’s not engaging. I was just totally, no, and it was hokey. It was just really, really hokey and I wish I could say it was, you know, laugh out loud, funny at parts. , but not really. No. You, you didn’t really have a sense of humor about it.

Yeah, 

Craig: no, it’s not funny at all. Um, and, and you know, I don’t love the Dialo films the way that you do. I appreciate them for what they are, but the thing that I like most about them is that there’s always some sort of central mystery and, and, and the ones that we’ve seen, the mystery isn’t. Obvious. In fact, sometimes it’s seems contrived, right?

But at least it’s not obvious. Like it keeps you guessing. There’s really no mystery here. There’s really no intrigue at all there. There’s a, a witch who kills people who come to her house. That’s it. There’s nothing intriguing Yeah. About that. Like I feel like maybe. Of in the hands of better filmmakers.

They could have given the witch a more interesting backstory or, or given her more interesting motivations. But no, she’s just pissed that she got killed in the 16 hundreds, and anybody who comes to her house is gonna get up. That’s it. Yeah. like . 

Todd: Meanwhile, The only people on the property who have the knowledge to defeat her are completely uninterested in helping anyone Well, and, and 

Craig: El Elvira Elvira, the caretaker has the same last name as the Witch.

So, oh, is she supposed her like, long, like her great, great sisters granddaughter or something? Oh, interesting. I have no idea. I, I have no idea. It doesn’t make any sense. They, again, that, that the caretaker, uh, the caretaker’s son, Mary. You could have cut all of them out. They’re completely unnecessary. But then again, if you did, there wouldn’t be much of the movie because it’s not like you get any kind, you don’t get any kind of family dynamic.

Like that’s the other thing, like with the Amityville movies. Yeah. There’s a 

Todd: family breakdown. Yeah. And 

Craig: there’s, there’s a family dynamic and like you’re invested in what happens to this family. And even in those movies, it’s not like the families are like really likable or anything. In fact, Kind of not.

Yeah, but you’re invested in their plight and what’s going to happen to them. And I was not invested in these people at all. You don’t have the time. No. You don’t have the time to get, you know, to care about them and you’re not given anything that would make you care about them. They’re just a bunch of random people who show up and get picked off.

Todd: Well, once again, I feel like I’m saying this a lot recently, but there’s no central character. This isn’t really told through any one person’s perspective. There’s no one to really rally. There’s no obvious, oh, this guy’s gonna be, you know, maybe come in and save the day or whatever. You would think it would be David, but David’s gone half the time.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, he’s there, but he doesn’t really do anything. Like, uh, I don’t, it’s just a series of events and they’re not particularly interesting. I, the, the kills are fine, you know, they’re fine. They’re, the kills are cool. They’re, they’re fairly typical. Yeah, they’re fine. They’re fairly typical, uh, of this 

Todd: era.

The spike through the eye was pretty bloody also the, yeah, as improbable as it was, you know, the supernatural blade going through the priest was pretty cool. Yeah, I’d never seen that before. Fair. 

Craig: But I, God, I’ve seen other, houses haunted by a witch. Movies that I liked more than this. I, I think, um, I think it was Linda Blair and maybe David Hasselhoff we’re in a movie called like Witchery, which is about a house that haunted by a witch.

And I don’t even remember much about that movie, except for a couple of particularly gory scenes that have really stuck with me. Um, it was a bad movie, but at least it was interesting. I just, I can’t believe that we. 50 minutes out of talking about this , right? Sorry 

Todd: guys. Sorry, . We’re just as disappointed as you really, I mean, you know, I, I came into this with high hopes cuz it’s, uh, some, I just, you know, like you said, I just can’t understand it.

Sometimes people online will go on and on about some of these films and we watched ’em and we’re. I don’t get it. 

Craig: Well, I mean, even the box art is intriguing. It’s artistic and it looks cool. It doesn’t ultimately really have anything to do. I mean, I guess there’s the silhouetted witch, but she never carries some beautiful girl down a stairwell

I don’t, I don’t know. Like this is one of those, we watched it so you don’t have to. Yeah, I do not recommend wasting your time on this. Don’t bother. So many better movies that you could watch, um, even, you know, for, for the sake of being a completist, you’re really not missing anything. Yeah. This is not a notable film and it’s just as wild.

Unless I’m wrong. See, that’s the thing, you know, two people requested this. So there are people out there who like this movie and I swear I’m desperate. Contact us, let us know what, what is it that we are not. About cuz I just don’t get 

Todd: it. Yeah. But sometimes people send us to these movies for this very reason.

Craig, you know that like a couple times. That’s true. Yeah. We sent you to this movie cuz we also think it’s terrible. You know, we wanted to wanna hear you talk about it and that’s fine. Yeah, it’s wonderful. We love it. Yeah. 

Craig: And it is fun. It is fun to talk about. It’s more fun to talk about these movies for 45 minutes to an hour than it is to watch them.

Yeah. Sometimes they’re kind of a, like, like this time it was kind of a pain to watch. I, I guess the redeeming thing about the experience is at least I get to talk about it and, you know, with you and mm-hmm. rip on it a little bit. Yeah. If I , if I, if it weren’t for that, then I would really feel like I had wasted my 

Todd: time.

I’ve been curious about it for a very long time. It’s disappointing, but I’m glad I satisfied that curiosity. Yeah, really disappointed. I didn’t find like a hidden gem, but we’ve hit a couple hidden gems recently that was kind of fun. Like last week’s movie. Yeah, last week’s movie’s. Fun. It’s gonna take a lot of really terrible movies to get me off the high of last week’s movie, so , 

Craig: right?

Yeah. Fair enough. So thanks. Anyway, this, this movie, by the way, depending on where you live, uh, sometimes is titled Witch also. It, it’s not. Well, I always say things like it’s not easy to find. That’s not true. It’s not easy to find if you don’t wanna pay for it. If you don’t mind paying for it, paying for it, you can find it in a lot of places.

But we couldn’t find it. Uh, streaming anywhere for free, you know, it’s like a buck 99 on Google Play and, uh, YouTube Save your $2. . 

Todd: Yeah, it must have recently come available because a couple years ago when I was looking for this in earnest, I couldn’t even find it there. It was literally a very rare movie to find, which only intrigued me.

Yeah, don’t 

Craig: bother. Yeah, you can dollars, you can rent it and buy it on various platforms, but again, don’t bother

Todd: Well, thanks again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share with a friend. Uh, you can find us just by googling two guys in a chainsaw podcast. And, uh, let us know what you thought of this movie. If you’ve seen us, we would love to hear some contrarian views. Yeah. Maybe somebody will point out something that we completely.

And we will be forever shamed. Also, consider contributing to our Patreon account. Become a patron of this podcast. Get a bunch of cool goodies, uh, some more discussion that we do every month through our two mini episodes, as well as an exclusive interview. And, uh, the behind the scenes of this podcast, which basically must the unedited phone calls, uh, that we do both the before and after we’re done talking about the movie.

So, uh, check us out at patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. Until next week. I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Oooooooh boy… we LOVE it when we find a hidden gem, one of those deliciously campy and endlessly entertaining 80’s horror flicks that has slipped under our radar for so long.

Just when we thought we knew it all, along comes Death Spa – an absolute must-watch for every fan of this podcast. Thankfully, it’s streaming for free in a few places, so you can catch all the delicious, bonkers joy before listening to us rave about it for an hour. You’re welcome!

Death Spa (1989)

Episode 330, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: All right, well, here we are in 2023 and Craig and I were talking about what movie would we do next. I had a few things on the list that I wanted to see and uh, one of them is called Death Spa from 1988. I don’t really remember how I found this movie.

I. I was looking at theme movies for theme months, and I noticed that at least one movie took place in like a spa. like a workout place. There’s a movie called Killer Workout. There’s this one Death Spa. We did The Toxic Avenger, a lot of which took place in a workout facility. Yeah, I think there was one other one.

There’s like one called Murder Rock, which is from Lucio Fulci, which is kind of a musical.

Craig: Yeah, very random.

Todd: And I found this one and I, um, acquired it a while ago and it had been on my list and I keep forgetting about it. And I just felt like I was in the mood for a cheesy eighties slasher movie.

Craig was willing, and I don’t regret it one bit Uhuh, not one bit. This, oh my God. This may be one of my all time new favorite movies.

Almost everything I had hoped it would be and so much more. It didn’t disappoint to the very last frame . And I’m so excited to talk about this with you. And you texted me and I don’t know if you had finished watching the movie or you were in the middle of it, but you texted me saying I’ve never been so excited to record in a long time.

Craig: I was, I wanted to do something fun too cuz uh, I. The last couple movies we’ve done, we just haven’t really liked all that much. So I wanted to do something fun. So like I was looking, I was Googling so bad, it’s good movies and stuff and uh, I shot you a couple of suggestions and you sent this one back and another one and I hadn’t heard of either of them.

So we picked this one for convenience cuz it was readily available. You can stream it on several platforms for free and do it because this movie Yes. Is. Amazing. It is do it now, it’s bananas. Seriously, do it right now. Don’t watch and don’t read anything about it. Now, I only read the synopsis, I think on IMDB, which is really vague.

After the movie, I looked it up on Wikipedia and the, uh, synopsis gives more away. And part of the reason that I liked this so movie is because it is just whackadoodle. Like the first, it is so crazy. The first 45 minutes or so, I’m like, what? This is kind of stupid, like . And I was like, I, I don’t, I don’t really get it.

I don’t really get what’s going on. And then there came a part where I was like, oh, I get it. I see what the twist is. I know what’s going on here. And then for the last 30 or 45 minutes, the whole time I was. What, like , 

Todd: it definitely 

Craig: takes some turns and fi like when it became apparent what was actually happening, oh my God.

It was, uh, it was so good. And the, the last 30, 40 minutes of this movie are crazy and I loved every minute of it. I was like cheering and hysterically laughing out loud. So funny. Oh man, 

Todd: this movie has so much heart to it. I just had to look up and find out as much as I could about the people who made it, because I can’t believe I’ve never heard of this before.

I know this is not talked about extensively in the horror community, this movie as, I mean, as far as I know, I. Maybe I’m just in the wrong circles. Uh, it needs to be a Cult Classic. If it’s not already. It 

Craig: really should be. I mean, it’s, it’s crazy. It, it…I don’t know. It doesn’t remind me of anything cuz I’ve never seen a movie just like it.

But it’s crazy in the way that Society was crazy or Yes. Uh, you know, David Yuzna, it’s, it, it feels like a David Yuzna kind of, 

Todd: it does. Movie does Night to the Creeps kind of thing. 

Craig: Maybe I did. Uh, Silent Night, Deadly Night part four, or whichever one of those he did. It’s, it’s, it’s 

Todd: crazy. . 

Craig: And really when it boils right down to it, the concept is very simple, but they tease it out for a really long time.

Mm-hmm. and then they take a very simple concept and like just go nuts. Like, what can we do like ? 

Todd: Yes. So much fun. Well, it has an interesting backs. There’s this guy named Walter Sheen, who was most famous for producing the early Beatles films. Like A Hard Day’s Night. Yeah. He was, he’s a very well-respected British producer.

Made tons of money off of that. He still, his state still has the rights to those. That was before The Beatles were famous in the us so that was a good call. Anyway, he had been, uh, g became good friends with this producer called Jamie Beardsley, who had not done a lot, um, did, did a movie called The Munchies.

Yeah. Anyway, I’m not sure if Jamie Beardsley is a male or female. I’m just gonna say they just to be. Yeah. Jamie really wanted to do a horror movie and had been talking with, with, uh, Walter Jensen about it. It, and there was this Austrian guy who came into the picture who is a theater producer slash director, uh, there in the States who had just somehow really bonded with Jensen.

and his name was Michael Fisher and he ended up directing this movie. So yeah, Jensen recommended Fisher, Beards leap put together. Uh, they kind of chatted amongst themselves and decided, well, what kind of horror movie are we gonna make? And they decided to latch onto the health craze that was so popular.

Yeah. And said it in a health spa. They enlisted a writer, James Barro, who had never written any screenplays before to write it as like a ghost story. So there’s like a ghost in this health spa. It got finished in 1983, but quite frankly wasn’t very good. So they set it aside while they worked on a movie called Echo Park.

And then they brought in another writer named Mitch Paradise, which is a fantastic name for a writer. Mitch Paradise came in, he said he completely rewrote it. He said, Honestly, it’s just an act of charity that, uh, James Bart Tripp’s name is still on it because they co they co credit it to James Barri, Uhhuh and apparently uncredited, they brought in a famous film critic from the Hollywood reporter named Kirk Honeycutt, uh, to do a final polish on it.

So they had this script that is so wackadoodle and so fun, and I think that is like at the heart of this. The other thing about the movie that I think makes it work really well is, is done very earnestly. Apparently they all just had a ball working on this. Michael Fisher is just, loves this movie from start to finish.

So proud of it. The producers proud of it. Everybody’s really proud of what they came up with because they said that they accomplished exactly what they set out to do. That’s funny. Yeah. And then you look at the, at the people in this. and go to the, go to the IMD B page and just click one at a time through all the characters of which, by the way, there are like a thousand Yeah.

Bunch. But almost all of them have gone on, either just before this movie or after this movie have gone on to be working actors in television, in the movies, video game voicing and, and all that stuff. Almost everybody involved here is maybe not, you know, the name of the top of your list. There are no like Will Smiths or anything in here, but there are people who are continuous working actors and so it’s just, it’s gonna be so much fun to talk about this.

Like Ken Foci from Dawn of the Dead and several of Rob Zombies flicks is, plays a guy. 

Craig: Yeah. Is he the, is he the, the big black guy, right? 

Todd: Yeah, he is. Yeah. Yeah. Marvin in there. I recognized him. Mm-hmm. and then, you know, we not long ago did, um, uninvited. Right. Remember Uninvited also? Yeah. One of our absolute favorite, hilarious movies.

And Katherine the woman. Ghost in this movie, I guess you could say Sherry Shaddock, who was in Uninvited, and she ever since has been all over television. But in this movie, apparently her, her voice was dubbed by another actress. I thought that was kind of 

Craig: interesting. Yeah. You could kind of tell. Mm-hmm.

her name sounded familiar, but I, I couldn’t place her. Um, it’s funny that you said no Will Smiths because Karen Parsons, this was her first movie and she played his, um, cousin on Fresh Prince, uh, she was his like, rich snooty cousin. Hillary. Hillary, right? Yeah. Uhhuh . And this, this was her first thing. I didn’t recognize her.

I, it wasn’t until after, uh, it wasn’t until after I read that she was in it and I looked her up and I Oh yeah. She was that girl. She was a funny part. 

Todd: Apparently some NBC executive saw this movie on late night cable and called her up based on her performance in here, which isn’t a big role. 

Craig: No, she is a small role.

Yeah. It’s a funny role. This is, it’s a funny movie. Oh, it’s so funny. And I couldn’t tell. . I’m glad to hear you say that they got exactly what they were going for because I kind of couldn’t tell because it’s played straight. Mm-hmm. , like everybody plays it super straight and it really seems like they are giving the, their all, but at the same time, it’s so campy.

It’s one of the campiest things I’ve ever seen. Mm-hmm. . And it’s hilarious with, uh, just gags, like gags that would fall flat in other places. Like this is what Frankenstein General Hospital dreamed of being. Yeah. You know, like, like silly goofy, you know, and lots of boobs and dance, aerobics and . This movie has everything

Todd: It does. And it’s such a time capsule of like our favorite era . You know, there’re beautiful people in here. There are tons of, there’s tons of nudity in this. There is loads of gore. Apparently when they were shooting this, they just had buckets. They had like a special effects team, a VFX team, and like a blood team.

All they did was manage the blood and mop up the blood. They, they were talking about how they would come to a shoot and just be drenched with the blood. Like the crew had to wear ponchos and booties and stuff on their feet. But because they were shooting this in a, a spa, it was basically an old spa that had long closed Uhhuh

So they were able to just kind of do whatever. They could just kind of mop things off the floor pretty quickly. Uh, but they said that the shoot was just like, I think it was one of the actors who walked into the movie. He plays, he has a very small role too, which I was kind of surprised by. Uh, David Shawny.

Yeah. He played Freddy, the curly-haired guy. Oh, yeah. Which seems early on, like he’s gonna be a bit of comic relief, but then he’s barely in it. Uhhuh . But, but this guy apparently walked into the set on the first day and was like, oh. So this is the kind of movie we’re making. . He has an extensive resume after this.

Uh, he actually played Dimus and a few other characters in Labyrinth, uh, before he came into this movie. Oh. And then he just became a voice actor. For the last 20 years, he has been in all the most famous video games. If you name a video game, he’s had a voice in it. It’s kind of insane. Grand Theft Auto, you know, mass Effect, D Destiny, all these games, tomb Raider, you name it.

Heath played something in it. . So, uh, that, you know, it’s, it’s just kind of funny how so, how so many people from this movie went on to have great careers, especially after this movie , 

Craig: which I know which, and I still, like, my mind is blown that I’ve never even heard of this movie. I, I, and I feel like it’s not super well known because I, you know, that I watch tons of, you know, yes.

Like documentaries about horror movie, you know, and, uh, the, the hundred greatest horror movies you’ve never seen. I’ve never. Heard of this. Yes. And it’s crazy. And I can’t wait to tell everybody I know about it. I know, right? It’s on my 

Todd: list. Yeah. It’s it’s on my list for sure. 

Craig: It’s low budget. Yeah. It, it was only like a $750,000 budget.

And that’s fine. Like you can kind of tell, but at the same time it’s skillfully done. Like there’s some really good camera work in it. There’s awesome camera work in here. Yeah. And the effects are all practical. And , on the one hand, they look kind of awful. And on the other hand, in the most excellent way, like it, it seems like a, an effects that you and I and Heather would set up and then execute it and it would go right.

And we would cheer and jump up into 

Todd: like, . 

Craig: It’s just, it’s just like these fun, crazy explosions and people’s heads blowing off and ah, oh man. And, and it’s, it’s all so be like ba because of the premise. Because what it. , even though this is only teased for the first half of the movie, it ends up that it is, it’s just a haunted house movie.

Except it’s not a haunted house, it’s a haunted health spa. Mm-hmm. . But because it’s a haunting, they can do whatever they want there, there are no rules, you know, like supernatural things can just happen. Yeah. So, you know, somebody’s head can just blow up for no reason. Or an entire wall can shatter and explode right in front of somebody and just completely obliterate them.

And that’s, that’s fine. It’s, it’s just the world that we’re in. Oh, I love it. And, and when you get to that last part, which I know I’m getting ahead of myself, but it’s all lit and neon, and you’re right, it’s in an eighties hell spa and all the women are in those, you know, like leotards and high cut leotards, you know,

Oh man. High cut on the sides. Um, the, I mean, it does, it, it looks just like the exercise. Videos that were advertised on TV incessantly in the eighties, and that ran on TV. And, uh, it, it, you’re right, it’s a total time capsule, uh, of, of that time. And we remember, I mean, this was a big deal, like this health craze.

Yeah. Especially, I think it came out mostly came out of Los Angeles, but it was all over the country. Mm-hmm. , you know, middle-aged housewives were doing jazzer size in their living rooms 

Todd: everywhere. Jane fond a workout. I did it with my mom. Oh 

Craig: gosh. Yeah. It’s just so nostalgic. I, I, I don’t know where to begin to, 

Todd: it’s great.

And as a kid, I don’t know, you know, viewing this from afar, never ever having been to a health spa, actually, even as an adult, I’ve rarely been to a health spa, but like as a kid, they, I, they were seen as like the coolest thing. Like it seemed to be just endless rooms of machines and exercise and, and hot tubs and saunas and pools and things like that, that you would just go like a little mini resort in the middle of the city and just.

Socialize and hang out and bars where they would juice things up for you, you know? And it just seemed really, really cool. And this movie makes this health club seem really cool. It looks like it’s packed to the gills every day with people. 

Craig: It looks like what we thought they were like, I don’t know what they were really like.

I never really went to one either. But it looks like they were portrayed in all of these movies. And of course, you know, it’s a movie, so everybody in there looks like they don’t really need to be at a hell spa. like they’re, they’re right . Then again, I guess the people who frequent gems are probably the people who look like that, but that’s true.

Uh, that’s, yeah, I mean, and you’re right, it’s, it’s, it’s packed all the time. The gimmick behind this particular health spa, which I totally believe from the eighties, is that it’s entirely automated. Like all of the equipment is automated and computerized. So like you have to have like a key card that you have to scan the machines, and I, I guess it probably has your workout information or whatever.

And so it’s all tailored to you. Yeah. 

Todd: It sets the weights and everything for you, which are like hidden behind the wall even. Right. The resistance, the weights, everything like that, right? Like all these at first, you know, the opening shot when it first kind of pans through the building, which is an awesome shot by the way.

I looked at it, I was kind of skeptical. I was like, why this, this looks weird. Like there are fewer machines than I would expect in a health club, and then the bits are kind of jutting out from the. , you know, I’m like, where would you set the weights? What would you do? I, I was really skeptical at first when I saw it and I thought, oh man, this is gonna be super lame.

Like, these people don’t even know how to put a set together. But then, you know, once it was explained, it was actually really cool. And I would say forward thinking for the time. Yeah, I mean, it’s actually pretty clever for 

Craig: the time. It probably felt a little bit sci-fi, you know, looking at it from 2022, I, I’m sure there are gems like this , you know, like Yeah, exactly.

Uh, but you’re right, uh, maybe a little bit, uh, ahead of their time in their thinking, which is creative and, and original. I had never seen anything like it before. It was a, it a fun setup. 

Todd: Yeah, it really was. And that opening shot. Oh my gosh, I was so impressed. Oh, the music’s good too, by the way. It opens up with this kind of creepy music and it’s this huge crane shot that apparently they had to get a, a, a really tall cherry picker used for construction to, to, to get this shot to get up high enough and a steady cam operator up on there.

And it’s this huge shot that just pans kind of across LA as it slowly comes down onto this spa, which is called the, uh, the Star, star Body Health. The star body health Spa. Yeah. And this lit up sign, but it’s nighttime. Everybody’s leaving and 

Craig: it’s a darkened, stormy night. , 

Todd: those flashes of lightning every now and then.

And as it comes down to the spa, you know, the last few people are leaving and they get in their car and they drive off, but the camera is still moving and, uh, eventually like a lightning bolt hits the, the sign which it sparks and it messes up the neon on the sign so that it Star Body Health Spa says Death Spa.

It’s great. Which was so clever and perfectly calm. fantastic. It was awesome. I was like, okay, this, this, this is gonna be cool. Then it slowly goes into the spa. We’re getting the credits and the music and it’s just taking us through. Just a little bit of the layout of the, of the front year. And then we see that there’s actually a girl inside, like, like a last person to leave, um, kind of through one of the windows.

Yeah. 

Craig: And she’s dancing. There’s quite a bit of 

Todd: dancing in this movie. , there is a lot of dancing. It’s not bad. I mean, you know. She’s dancing, exercising, whatever by herself in there. And the dim dimness as the lights are all coming off , 

Craig: then she takes USANA naked. Yeah. And it’s so gratuitous, like, oh God.

Yeah. But that’s, I everything about this there is so much gratuitous, nudity. It’s fantastic. In this movie. It’s great. It’s so eighties. I absolutely, like, of course, you know, this woman, I, I didn’t write down any of their names cuz I didn’t recognize many. This was Laura right? Her? This was Laura. And it turns out that she is the girlfriend of the manager.

Uh, yes. Or the owner. She’s the last one there. She’s got her own keys. She can let herself out or whatever. But she takes, you know, she goes into the sauna and is completely nude. Lays out completely flat in the sauna and the camera just lean, lean hands over her entire naked body. 

Todd: also running her own hands across her body.

I literally 

Craig: thought she was gonna start masturbating. I thought so too. 

Todd: It was like, it was almost like, It was almost like that hand was like looking at us being like, oh, you see where I’m going? Oh, wait, no psych. 

Craig: And her body was like, impossibly Dewey. I’m like, oh yeah. What? Like somebody is standing right off camera like spritzing this woman

Huh. And, and, and don’t get me wrong, she’s gorgeous. She has a beautiful body. It’s, it’s, it’s excellent. Eighties gratuitous. Nudity. Nudity. I was, I was completely 100% down for 

Todd: it. Oh, oh, yeah. Totally. I mean, this sets the tone for the whole movie. I mean, this is like the first five minutes. And Laura, by the way, is played by Brenda Bki, who is in Hot Charts, part Dew, uh, tales from the Crip.

Demonn Night Under Siege two was all over. Television has got a ton of roles. It’s still working today. Yeah. She is visited before she pops in there by, uh, Marvin, who is, uh, Ken Forry, who I mentioned earlier, and yeah. Yeah. I think it’s kind of a, a cool scare, right? Because we got this P O V that just looks like a camera, p o v, and then somehow in the middle of it, it becomes like a person’s p o v.

and then we see the shadow come up from behind her. But you know, it’s just this guy who’s helping your clothes for the night. He works there. Yeah, he works there. Is he? It’s like a personal trainer or maybe like an assistant director or, I don’t know, or something. It’s hard to say. 

Craig: That’s the thing. We just watched some movie where there were so many characters and we’re like, there are so many characters and I don’t care about any of them.

That’s kind of the case here too, like there are so many characters. It kind of took me a long time to keep track of who everybody was. Yeah. That I didn’t really care. Like . Yeah. In, in this case, I didn’t so much care. Like, okay, there’s like three. Blonde , you know, like three tall skinny blondes with big boobs.

Which one is, which I don’t really care. Right. Like that’s the, this movie doesn’t require a lot thought, character 

Todd: depth. Yeah. It doesn’t, and it doesn’t matter, and Right. 

Craig: It doesn’t. And, and I feel like that almost sounds hypocritical because I was just so critical of another movie for doing the same thing, but it’s a completely different tone.

Yeah. This is a movie about watching people die in interesting and creative ways. And the whole first part, like, I really didn’t know what was going on. Like, she’s there in the sauna and then all of a sudden, and we’ve seen this before, the, there’s too much steam. Um, and it’s getting too hot or something.

Todd: I think it was like smoke. Well, it turned out to be a vapor, right? It turned out to be a, yeah, it did something else, but yeah. You’re not quite sure. I I wasn’t sure if it was like poison gas. Yeah. Or if, if she was too hot or whatever. She just jumps up and screams and smashes a window. But, you know, collapses to the floor anyway.

And then it 

Craig: cuts to what becomes our main character, I guess Michael, um, who is the club owner and he’s sleeping on a couch, but he’s dreaming of someone on fire. And I’m like, mm-hmm. , . I had to like rewind. I had to click that little like go back 30 seconds button on this movie so many times cuz I, what is, if I looked away for a second and I would look back and something totally bonkers would be going on and I would’ve no idea what was going on.

And then I would rewind it and it’s like, oh, there is no context. It’s just a random flash of somebody. Yeah. Completely a flame. And then he wakes up. I guess I actually thought this was smart 

Todd: because, you know, we see these little flashbacks where clearly like his brain is, is bothered by something and has past or whatever.

He’s having these recurring dreams. We get a little bit more information with every single one of them until finally we see what happened, right? In a movie like this. I thought that was rather smart, actually. And he’s played by William Buil, who was all over TV in the eighties and nineties. He did a stint on Days of Our Lives.

I didn’t know if you. Knew 

Craig: that. I know I saw that. But he played like four different characters, so I have a feeling he was just an extra . 

Todd: Oh, okay. He wakes up. And, uh, it took me a while to figure out the relationships 

Craig: here too. I know, because ultimately it doesn’t really matter. Like, so he, he owns the place.

There’s a brunette lady called Priscilla who’s the manager. He has a lawyer named Tom who hangs around there sometimes. And then there are two like detectives. Lieutenant Fletcher is like an older kind of, I don’t know, PUDR, rubbery guy, balding white guy. And yeah. And like then there’s Sergeant Stone, who’s like the toughest nails.

Black Lady Uhhuh, uh, totally playing, you know, not necessarily to racial stereotypes, but like, these are the detectives that you see in every movie for the eighties. Oh yeah, exactly. And so they’re like investigating cuz Laura, it turns out that the reason that she was freaking out is just because it was like condensed chlorine gas.

Mm-hmm. . Um, and, and it burned her skin. Her skin is mostly okay, but her eyes are burned. She’s gonna be fine, but she has to walk around blindfolded for the rest of 

Todd: the movie. For the rest of the movie. Which is interesting, at least to some really interesting situations. Yeah. And 

Craig: she has to walk around the house that she either lives in, it’s, it’s her boyfriend’s house.

I don’t know if she lives there or not, but she’s there for most of the movie. It’s like a multi-level house where none of the levels have railings. So 

Todd: like , it’s the worst house for a, a blinded person to be poking around in. They, they would punch you. Why she didn’t fall to her own dad. She would be dead just walking around the house to the kitchen to get a snack.

You know, I think it was kinda weird. It was an awesome looking house though. Sergeant Stone was Rosalyn Cash. She was Lisa in Omega man, the original Charles Naton one, which was one of my, oh, favorite movies growing up. And do you remember Tales from the Hood? The last segment, I think, where the guy goes down and there’s like some doctors talking to him about Yes.

You know, that’s her. 

Craig: Yep. And I remember talking about her at the time, and she had done a lot of tv, uh, in the eighties too. Yeah. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. . Uh, and the same deal with Lieutenant Fletcher, this Francis x McCarthy guy over 140 credits in and out of every television show you could think of in the, in the eighties, all the way up to today.

He’s still on tv. 

Craig: Yeah. A almost all of these people. Either had been working and are still working, or are still working, sadly, except for the other kind of main character, even though he really probably only has five minutes of screen time total. Mm-hmm. . Um, but David is the computer programmer of the, you know, like he controls all this stuff in the gym.

Yeah, he designed it. He designed it. He’s played by a guy named Merri Buttrick who passed away, like right after this came out. And he was young I 29. I didn’t read what happened to him. Did 

Todd: you? Yeah. Um, it’s toxoplasmosis, which is kind of like, um, a parasite that you get from food poisoning generally. Oh, wow.

Which normally is no big deal. You don’t even notice it. But because he, uh, had. It, uh, ah, it’s an, it’s, you know, specifically targets your immune system and, and so. Gotcha. That’s pretty tragic. He was in Star Trek, two and three, Uhhuh . He was the son of Captain Kirk, I believe, in those movies, and seemed to have a rising career when he died.

He’s also Inright night too, I guess, but yeah, I haven’t seen that. 

Craig: I don’t know if I have either. He didn’t look familiar to me, but he was a young, handsome guy. I mean, it’s, it’s too bad. Yeah, he plays a weirdo in this movie. It’s also super convoluted because we, what’s his name? Michael is with Laura. But he’s also a recent widower.

His wife Katherine is dead. We don’t know what happened to her yet, but Katherine was David’s twin sister and , like, I don’t even what, because David and Michael kind of have this. Um, weird conversation because, um, Michael thinks that maybe the computer had something to do with it or maybe David had something to do with it.

You’re here because you know the system and because you’re Catherine’s brother, both circumstances must be terribly trying for you. If I thought for one moment that you put chlorine in the steam system, he resort to the only weapon in your prosthetic arsenal. Jock violence. I think there’s a 

Todd: glitch in your precious system.

That’s impossible. 

Craig: Why are you so full of hate? You found some comfort for your sorrow, I noticed. But then Laura was always there. If he wasn’t, she, she 

Todd: and others.

Craig: I loved Catherine. She never wanted that child. How do you get things so twisted up? We share thoughts? You’d never understand like that. Some of the dialogue. Is golden. Is golden. Absolutely golden because it is so terrible, God. And it’s just like, it’s so badly written and then delivered with absolute sincerity.

It’s great. Oh, it’s fantastic. So there’s a dead wife, but the dead wife has a twin sister and the the twins are like, have Telesis and Yeah, 

Todd: it’s, it’s the twin brother. It’s so good. Yeah, it’s, it’s nuts. So yeah, you’re kind of confused, but it all kind of comes together and I mean, basically what it is, is, and, and we learned this over time based on various people’s comments and the investigation that kind of ensues and the, the cops asking the questions, the F B I investigators asking the questions is that David’s wife was pregnant with apparently a child she didn’t want.

And in the childbirth there was some complication that led to her breaking her lower back and maybe it was an epidural that went wrong or something like that. Anyway, she ended up paralyzed and lost the baby. And lost the baby, descended into depression and then. Emulated herself, herself, like took her wheelchair out to the field, behind their house, dumped gasoline all over herself, and set herself on fire, which he 

Craig: keeps dreaming about.

Yeah. And, and weird stuff keeps happening. I mean, that’s the thing, like weird stuff keeps happening at the spa, but at one point, uh, Michael finds like a. Bird fetus, or something in his, there was so much that I didn’t understand. 

Todd: Bird nets with a fetus in, in his, uh, in his office, which he gets really pissed about, immediately runs to David, believes that David put it there.

Oh God. And I was like, is that related to the baby he was talking about? I wasn’t quite sure what, I 

Craig: guess I think so. And then we like, uh, a diving board breaks like somebody messed with the bolts and a girl almost got hurt. A 

Todd: girl fell in the water. Oh my God. I, I couldn’t, yeah, 

Craig: she, she was on a high dive.

She bounced like 10 times, but then it broke and she fell in the water. And you would think that she had, I don’t 

Todd: know, uh, like hip concrete or something. Like why was everybody so concerned about her wellbeing? She literally just fell into the. 

Craig: And then there’s a gratuitous shower scene where every woman in the place decides to take a shower at the same time.

And I’ve read that, you know, they, they, they called in extras from a porn casting company for this , it kind of looks like it. Lots of big boobs. Mm-hmm. . But during that, uh, shower, the jets start shooting really hard and then tiles start shooting off the wall and cutting the girls up. But after that’s over, Michael’s like comforting the girls who were in there and two of them were like, you too.

All right. Yeah. To tell you the truth, Michael, this place could use better maintenance. Yeah. Who needs weight reduction through terror. I’m sorry about the showers. I wanna extend your memberships for three months, no charge. Drop by my office and I’ll take care of it personally. Do you think you can handle both of us after jazz class tomorrow?

Well, I can sure have fun trying.

Todd: it’s like they just shake this off. And yeah, one 

Craig: of these is Hillary from the, uh, from Fresh Prince Uhhuh and, and then, so it’s these two girls, these two cute girls talking to Michael after they’ve just been assaulted by a ghost in the shower. And this is all delivered as though people really talk like this.

Yeah, . 

Todd: Everybody in this club is very handsy and flirty with each other. Everybody in this spa of death, especially these two girls, it’s like they’re fighting to like get, even though everybody knows everybody, they’re still trying to make it with Michael or something through this whole thing. It seems like both of them 

Craig: at the same time, he’s not that good looking.

I guess. Maybe he’s rich, he doesn’t have a nice house. Well then, then some guy named Robert Gib. Crushed in the weight machine. Oh my gosh, 

Todd: I loved that scene. The best thing about this movie is, you know, something bad is about to happen because the music changes to this very specific music that is absolutely sinister.

The, he swipes his card on this weight machine, which is one of these like, uh, where you pull your arms together in the front. Uhhuh, , he sits down and he puts his, I guess I, I just had so many questions. He’s doing this machine, and the computer goes, oh, the resistance is now a hundred pounds. Now it’s one 30, now it’s one 40.

He’s like, what, what? And he keeps doing his crunches and finally he can’t do it anymore. And he is like, aha, somebody helped me. Somebody helped me. Like I guess the machine is pulling his arms 

Craig: back. It makes absolutely no sense. 

Todd: There’s still parallel to. 

Craig: Right. There’s nowhere for them to go because it’s right up against the wall.

Yeah. So it’s not like they can keep going back. They’re just Yeah. But , 

Todd: can he just take his hands out just right. Remove your arms from the machine You’re done. 

Craig: But no, instead his like ribcage, like burst open. But that was, and it looks, I mean, it looks like a somewhat cheap practical effect, but I loved it.

I also, I loved the absurdity of it. Like, it was just absolutely absurd. It was, and I thought it was great. Like I, I was laughing out loud cause I thought it was so 

Todd: funny. Michael runs into David’s room immediately after that and he’s blaming him. He thinks the computer had something to do with it.

David’s like the computer had nothing to do with the accident. You can’t blame the comp you computer for, for tiles flying off the walls. The computer doesn’t control tiles for Christ’s sake. had I thought about that for a minute, I was like, What does control the tiles? No, I 

Craig: wanna know . Oh, and, and so they think a possible solution would be to change all of the machines to manual.

But Tom, the lawyer slash business partner, I don’t really know. He says he doesn’t want to do that because that would take away the only unique thing about the spa. He’s 

Todd: shady. Yeah. It’s nice that, uh, Mike, you know, actually wants to correct this by disconnecting the computer, but it’s against him and I, and I love what Tom.

Mike, the partners, and I agreed that nothing can ruin the success of the Mardi Gras party on Friday night. And I was like, oh, there’s gonna be a Mardi Gras party. Yes. This movie is just full of happy surprises. Oh, it’s 

Craig: glorious. I know. That’s why the last half hour is so good. Oh God. But then, so Mark brings Laura home.

She’s fine, except for she has to wear these big bandages over her eyes. So he gives her a gift wrap blazer with enormous shoulder pads in it that she can’t see. And then Seductively feeds her asparagus in front of the fire . 

Todd: Oh God, that’s so great. It looks so awkward. But that closeup of that semi limp asparagus, it 

Craig: looks like a parody of something.

Yes. It, because it’s a limp piece of asparagus, and he just puts the tip right on her lip, and she like flicks her tongue on it.

and then takes a bite. She’s like, mm sure. Beats hospital food. Oh God. It’s so stupid and so hilarious. Yeah. Oh God. So then there’s another girl, Marcy alone in the locker room. I don’t know who she is, . 

Todd: I don’t. She just kind of came outta nowhere, . 

Craig: But the lockers start slamming and, and she doesn’t run or she doesn’t do anything.

She just kind of looks around and kind of just gingerly backs up and doesn’t realize that one of the lockers directly behind her is open and has an enormous spear coming out of it. 

Todd: I don’t know. , , just for some reason, the very locker she’s standing in front of has this spear that. Shoots right through her neck.

Uhhuh . So then like we don’t see her again, but they kind of mentioned that she’s missing. Yeah, we do 

Craig: actually, we see her dead body in the locker because it’s apparently Laura’s locker because Michael brings Laura back to the spot to like collect her things. Why? Yeah. We need, 

Todd: which is weird because, okay, so they talking about how they haven’t seen her for two days.

Laura opens up the locker to uh, get her things and that’s creepy, right? Because there’s the dead body right in front of them. But now her face is messed up too. 

Craig: That happens more than once. I don’t, yeah. I don’t know what’s going on there. That happens later with the pirate too. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. ? Um, it’s weird. Yeah.

It’s 

Craig: a pirate. Yes. There is a pirate later . 

Todd: Of course there is. But we do see like, kind of our first indication that things are, are weirder than just a computer like malfunctioning. Michael is up in the room waiting cuz he has to unlock the lockers. He has to like override the master security or something for her to just open her locker and he types on his computer like his password, which is Catherine, interestingly enough.

And then later on the computer shows a message and says, Michael, I miss you. And it turns on the security camera and he can see there’s this like, ghostly figure walking down the hallway towards the locker room. So he jumps up, he runs down there and uh, this figure is walking straight into the locker room.

He comes up behind it, puts his arm around his neck and rips the mask off of its face and it’s Priscilla. Who just goes, ha ha, don’t you like my Mardi Gras costume? I’m just trying it out. What? 

Craig: I don’t know. I, yeah, it was stupid. I, I honestly, I mean, it was a tense moment. It was, it was just a dumb payoff.

But I, but again, I don’t care. Like no, I I, in a different movie, I would criticize it in this movie, whatever. It’s all par for the course. Yeah. It can be as stupid as it wants to, and I don’t care. Yeah. Then we see in a flashback, his wife burns herself. She, he says he feels her presence in everywhere thinks that she’s causing trouble.

So he goes and sees Dr. Lido Moray, who is a paranormal investigator who does psychometry, and he has a magic gun that can like sense the paranormal or something. 

Todd: Oh God. 

Craig: It’s so great. Mike gives him like a broach of Catherine’s or something, and he knows her entire. story. He’s like, uh, I see a bird’s nest.

Cuz that’s what she thought of your family. You were, you know, family making your nest. And it’s so weird. And then it cuts to. A scene where you don’t see people, you just hear people talking and it sounds like two people talking. Yeah. And it’s like in a messy house, and there’s like sex noises. I, I can’t do this anymore, Jasmine.

We’re hurting people. Yes, you can.

That’s better. They’re so weak. And together we are so strong. And I have in my notes Catherine and David 

Todd: Like . Yeah, 

Craig: right. Because there were weird sex noises. I still don’t understand. I still, what 

Todd: was happening? I still don’t understand why there were sex noises in that room. Oh, it’s weird. Uh, yeah. . 

Craig: What? I don’t know, there’s just, I feel like the end is the good part.

I’m trying to think. Uh, one of those girls who wanted to have a three-way with Michael gets a note after her next workout that says, meet me in the basement, Michael. And so she goes down there and gets attacked by acid sprinklers, 

Todd: I guess. Yeah. The sprinkler system is now have acid in it or something. 

Craig: I just feel the movie just, it seems red herrings isn’t the right term, but I feel like there’s a lot of misleading going on.

Like it and they’re trying to, they’re trying to make you think it could be a number of things. Like David very ominously visits Laura and kind of menaces her like with a, uh, screwdriver that she can’t even see cuz she’s still blind. Yeah. Um, and I guess he was there to do something to Michael’s computer, but we never find out what, and we never.

Yeah, really know what was going, I don’t know, there’s just a lot of diversion stuff going on, which is great because then at I, at the end, I had no idea what 

Todd: was happening. Then the lawyer with Priscilla goes down and disconnects the computer from the air conditioning. I know. 

Craig: And I had, I was like, what are 

Todd: they doing?

I have, I still don’t understand why they did that. 

Craig: They do. They explain it later. 

Todd: Oh, they were trying to sabotage the party, 

Craig: right? Yes. And when he confronts them with that, they’re just like, Yeah. Yep. . 

Todd: That’s right. This is our plan. , we 

Craig: and, and I think that they confessed to being behind the initial attack.

Yeah. The chlorine stuff. So like that was them. Presumably. The, the only thing is the Priscilla says, well, she should have been fine because that door doesn’t lock. So they weren’t trying to hurt her. I think they were just trying to maybe scare her, have something go wrong, but still something went not according to plan.

Right. But it, it just so happens that they are trying to sabotage the business so that it will go under and they can sweep in and buy it out from under him. Yep. Which I couldn’t believe, it was so hilarious to me that he just is like, you did this, didn’t you? And she. 

Todd: Pretty 

Craig: much No, no. Trying to, no question skirt around it.

Nothing. 

Todd: Nope. Nope. Oh God. Then the paranormal investigators walking around with his device. He goes to the basement, he discovers that girl’s body, which wa looked absolutely disgusting because apparently she’s still alive, still slowly melting, like her heart is still beating. I know she’s making noises.

Craig: The heart that we can see, like she’s completely melted. Oh, it’s so, like her bones are melted, but she’s still moving and making it’s awesome. Whimpering noises. 

Todd: Makes no sense. But it’s gross and awesome. 

Craig: No, it looks like, uh, night of the living dead or something. Mm-hmm. , I don’t know. It’s. Silly and and awesome.

Yeah, I loved it. But then it’s my favorite scene when again, we have this weird thing where it’s the two voices and you hear the guy’s voice say, we should stop now. I see their faces, I hear their screams. It’s horrible. And then the woman says, well, I’m tired of waiting for Michael. And then it cuts up like it had shown us.

Presumably a woman like shaving her legs or uh, putting lotion on her shaved legs or something. But then it cuts up and it’s David Yeah. Sitting there and he just screams no. Yeah. This is the part where in my notes I’m like, oh, okay. I have this figured out. I thought that I knew what was going on. I thought that he was crazy.

Yeah, me too. That it was like a multiple personalities kind of thing. Like like a psycho kind of thing? Yes, exactly. Like a psycho thing. He had been traumatized by her death. They were so close. They had this connection that, uh, he is lost his, he’s broken with reality and he’s both of them. Nope. , 

Todd: no. Cause it doesn’t explain, it doesn’t explain what this, uh, this figure does to the paranormal investigator.

He grabs him, throws him all the way up to this high ceiling, just like with superhuman strength, and it falls down. and then the paranormal investigator pulls out a gun, but his hand just explodes. Explodes, Uhhuh, and starts break blood everywhere, . And then this figure that looks like a woman in a dress and everything.

It looks like that Catherine figure we’d seen earlier just starts chucking him around the room, like way up the top of these stairs and he ends up dead . I was so confused. I was like, is this paranormal? Like what? Just because even if it’s David, like he wouldn’t have that superhuman strength to be able to do these things, right?

Why is the guy’s hand exploding? You know, and 

Craig: Michael thinks it’s David. He’s convinced that it’s David now. And so he takes the cops to David’s house. So many hilarious things. First of all, the cops pull in onto the street and like park in the middle of the street on a. Zone, which just cracks me up for some reason.

And then they follow Michael up to David’s apartment and the door is locked and nobody’s answering. So he goes, he looks at them and says, I’m gonna break in. So they both turn around like , like, um, we can’t be party to this, we can’t see this, so we’ll just turn our backs while 

Todd: you break in because this is how the F B I 

Craig: works.

And then when he gets the door open, he like, looks back and they look back, they’re like, oh, okay, . And they go in and his apartment looks like it’s been kind of packed up, like everything’s covered in sheets and stuff, but he’s obviously still living there. But they also see all these women’s clothing. So they put out an a p B for him, but the, the guy’s like, uh, he’s a small guy, slight build 135 pounds, about five eight oh and get this.

He might be in drag . So they thought the same thing that I did. They thought that. And I mean, it’s kind of right, but not really. It’s even better than that. Oh, it’s way better than, but that’s when we get to the party, Mardi Gras, it’s a Mardi Gras party, so everybody is in costume and there’s tons of people there, like the whole place is packed and they’ve got music and people are dancing.

It’s so cool and it’s hilarious. And they’re, they’ve got like bars set up and , oh, it’s fantastic. And that’s the whole last half hour and it’s just excellent. 

Todd: I just, I love it how the investigators show up and they spend about 30 seconds looking for who they think is Catherine. And the rest of the time, , they’re just hanging out at the party.

Uhhuh, , I’ll put a move beer around drinking. But in the meantime, this Catherine figure is walking through and we see the face. She’s just walking around clearly. Right? They just miss her. She 

Craig: only died less than a year ago and she was the wife of the owner and nobody knows what she looks like. 

Todd: apparently.

So unless they think somebody’s dressed up like Kathryn for Mardi Gras , 

Craig: I hope that would be tacky . But anyway, Michael tells a pirate to go guard the computer room. So there’s a pirate guarding the computer room and Kathryn goes in there and turns all the computers on with magic, like with a wave of her hand.

Uh, and then she seduces the pirate by like sitting on the desk and like looking at him seductively. And I think she kind of goes in for a kiss, but instead she grabs his face and like, Crushes his head 

Todd: twists it or something. I don’t know. I don’t know. The aftermath we see later looks really bizarre.

It’s like Uhhuh . It’s like his face has been mushed, like putty in one direction actually looks like the, like the pig noses people from that famous Twilight Zone episode, I think. Yes. 

Craig: Yeah, it did. You only see it for a second, but you do see it for a second and it, that is what it looks like. So then Katherine puts on the pirate costume and grabs Laura and ties her 

Todd: up to the tanning bed in the tanning.

This ties her up in a tanning bed, which, which is the only room in this entire place that doesn’t have people in it. It just thought it was funny that this whole tanning facility has one tanning bed and, 

Craig: and, and Laura I think kind of wakes up as she’s getting tied up maybe, and Katherine says to her, what a shock.

Poor deer. The. Re the, the dead past returning to haunt you. And, and she, like Katherine, beckons Michael through the intercom. And so he goes to the control room and the printer is printing out like pages and pages of I miss you. And then Katherine is there first she’s not there. Then she is there. Ah. And she brings up video of Laura and the tanning bed and she says, one click of a button and she’s fried chicken

This whole scene is so surreal. Everything’s lit and red. She’s in like a white gown. Ah-huh. . And she wants him to kill himself. She, and, and she says, if you don’t kill yourself, I’ll kill everybody. She knocks him out. And then we cut to Tom, the lawyer, and Priscilla, it’s not Priscilla Priscilla’s, the dark-haired one.

This is one of the blondes. I don’t know which one this was. Oh, oh, okay. It was one of the hot blondes. And there she’s of course, Fully naked. Mm-hmm. , he’s wearing a towel around his waist, but they sit down and start to make out and then something just . 

Todd: What 

Craig: happens? Does her head explode? Does something like, it seems like something shoots through the back of her head.

Todd: But her whole head. His head. His head right. I think, I think it was a piece of wood from the wall because it’s one of those saunas that’s, you know, clad and wood because later bits of wood are coming off the wall and kind of like, and kind of all over her. But I had to rewind it. And watch it in slow motion to see actually what happened to him.

And I think that’s what it was. Yeah. 

Craig: It’s, it’s insane. It is just like his whole head is just goo and she’s screaming. Then it cuts away. And then my favorite in my , in my notes, in my notes, I have Catherine, is David, question mark. What the 

Todd: fuck? Like, . . It’s the best. 

Craig: This scene is so good. Like, I don’t even remember why he, she, they are lying on the floor writhing around, but like they ride one way and it’s David and then they r the other way.

And it’s Kathryn, I know just keeps going 

Todd: back and forth all the while. Uh, Mike is standing over him going, David, David, fight back. Fight back David.

Craig: We can’t do it justice. We can’t. No, we can’t. I’m sure it sounds really dumb and it is really dumb, but it is so fun to watch. Like, I swear to God, I, I haven’t laughed so hard in a long time. 

Todd: Well, and half of what makes it fun is it’s really well done actually, like Uhhuh , it’s a good, it’s a good editing job.

It’s quite skillful. It’s really nice. Like it’s, you know, it’s goofy, but it actually looks convincing. Michael takes advantage of David’s freak out, I guess, and runs out smashes through the doors of attaining parlor Unties Laura, and then immediately she’s back there. And nobody else is in the room. And she says, now is your chance, Michael.

Come with me into the inferno. Come with me and let’s 

Craig: live forever in hell. . Yeah, let’s die together and live forever in hell. Yeah, it’s great. I love before that, like when it was going back between her and David and, uh, I don’t remember. Michael said something to her like, uh, I’ll do whatever you say. Just let Laura go first.

And she says, don’t give me ultimatums. Like, just the, the lines were so funny and the delivery delivery is so funny. And, and this ghost is just play, the lady who’s playing this ghost is playing it, so all of them are playing it completely straight and it’s so 

Todd: silly. That’s Sherry Shad. Yeah. Oh man, it’s so great.

Oh, okay. Yeah, she’s, 

Craig: that’s Katherine, right? Sherry Shaddock. Uhhuh . Um, I read somewhere that the girl, the lady who played, um, Laura. Claims that she doesn’t remember making this movie . I dunno 

Todd: how convenient for you. Yeah, . 

Craig: I mean, she’s not bad in it. Everybody’s fine. Nobody’s terrible. So after she says, let’s die together and live forever in hell, Marvin bursts in and grabs her from behind, but she hurls him through a window and then like she hurls him through a window into the party.

Yes. And then it just switches to another shot and the party is just going on like, yes, , nobody cares at all that people are dying everywhere. 

Todd: I did begin to wonder when everyone was gonna start to care, cuz I was waiting for my pandemonium moment. Right. And that happens right away. Like she says, fine, everyone in this place is going to 

Craig: die.

But not before waits. No, not before the, there are several good things that happen here. Um, after the guy gets thrown through the window, then. A blender eats a girl. This, this girl had 

Todd: made, that’s all. This is it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. . 

Craig: Okay. So this, this bartender girl, she’s like making a smoothie or something, and the, her hand gets stuck in the blender,

And the fat cop is trying to help her get it out. But it goes on for, it had to have been at least a minute and a half. Yes. And, and she just like, just take 

Todd: your hand out, . Take your hand out. The pl like, no, it’s 

Craig: fucking, and there’s so much blood, they’re like waiting in blood by the end. 

Todd: Oh, it’s great. And then the 

Craig: investigator, yeah, he gives up and he gives up and then, and then and then the freezer door behind him shoots open and all this cold air shoots at him, and he gets dragged into the freezer where he’s, I don’t know, assaulted, like 

Todd: fish.

Fish,

Craig: And not, not only like this fish like this. It, it’s just a fish carcass, like lunges at him and bites his throat and, and he’s holding it and it’s flopping and, and the tail is like flopping in his crotch and he dies and it’s just, and blood is squirting everywhere. It’s fantastic. It looks it, oh, it, it’s so great.

And then, uh, Priscilla . Tom had knocked her out earlier for reasons unknown, but she comes too, and she goes in to look at herself in the mirror in the bathroom, and the mirror starts going all wonky and then explodes. And it had to have, I have no idea how they did this, but it had to have been some big explosion right in front of some sort of dummy, because it just blew that dummy to Smithery.

Yes, 

Todd: yes. She’s just like disintegrated by this mirror. . And that’s what everybody sees. You know, this happening. And that’s, I think, when the panic sets in, finally. Three people instead, you know, witnessed this going on. 

Craig: I almost texted this to you because my next notes are chaos, fire, boobs, , that’s it. And everybody’s trying to get out and they’re like, and it’s course, it’s locked.

And, and nobody can break a window, apparently glass front and nobody can get out. And they’re like piling up. They’re trampling over one another. Like bodies are just piling up. It’s insane. The whole place is burning. 

Todd: They’re even just shots of the dead bodies here and there up against the window PE people 

Craig: smashed dead up there.

And I loved that shot. You get an exterior shot with all the pem cuz it’s all glass front, so you can see, see all the pandemonium going on on inside and the, the sign death spa, like, uh, yes, it’s great. So great. It’s so glor. And then Katherine. Oh. Oh, no. . He Michael’s like, I’ll show her fried chicken. Oh. And he goes to like the electricity box.

I cannot figure 

Todd: this out. 

Craig: Takes off his shoe. Takes off his shoes. Like, was he wearing cap shoes? Like, I don’t understand. Takes off his shoes and like hooks them up to the wires. And then like, it’s, it’s, it’s almost like . He’s made his own defibrillator. , but he puts his, the paddles, which are his shoes together.

And I guess somehow it electrocutes her. I, I, I think she’s like in the computer now. I don’t, I don’t know what happened to David. I think it, well, I 

Todd: mean, she is David, right? So she’s the same, but I think it’s like, like he’s short circuited the electrical path that leads straight to the computer. So like, sparks start flying in the computer room and it’s like she’s almost struck by lightning or whatever while he’s standing there holding it together.

Like he’s gotta hold it together. And he himself seems to be getting electrocuted, right? It’s like, 

Craig: yeah. And then he, he and Laura and the female cop for some reason need to get into the control room, even though she’s burning. Mm-hmm. , they need to get in there for some reason. And, uh, Michael’s like, he’s like the computer locked the doors and the detective stands back and pulls out her gun and says, fuck this computer shit.

Shoots, shoots the lock. And they go in there and, and, uh, Michael says, it’s Katherine. She took over David’s body, 

Todd: and her burned up nasty. Look at Corpse is motionless against the wall. And they walk up to it, and of course he says, don’t get too close. And of course, Catherine reaches up with her arm, like the killers usually do at the end.

and David. Almost casually pulls her arm off. . Right? And then what? Meanwhile the cop just says, wait a second, and shoots in the head like three times , which 

Craig: is hilarious. And then they all leave. And then Katherine is like completely burned up. She’s just like a skeleton and goo. But she just says, nice try Michael.

And then like her eyeballs fall out. Goo 

Todd: squirts out of her eye. Yeah. Freeze frame. And then the, the closing song killer groove kicks on. 

Craig: That was seriously one of the wildest movies I’ve ever seen it. Uh, and, and it took a little while to get into it. Honestly. I was kind of scratching my head for the first half maybe.

Todd: Um, oh. 20 minutes in and I was sold on it. Well, yeah, cuz all the boobs. Well that’s . 

Craig: I, you texted me that. You texted me. I just, as I was getting ready to start watching it, you texted me 20 minutes in and I’m totally sold and then in the first five minutes there’s a fully naked woman. I’m like, obviously Todd, it doesn’t take that much really to get you on board.

Todd: I’m a pretty simple man. Really. But . But no, honestly, like it just had everything. It had the eighties, it had great soundtrack, it had that great opening camera shot. Of course it had the boobs. It had ridiculous special effects that worked. That were fine. That were great. Insane Gore. No apologi. Uh, uh, I mean, and it was campy.

Yeah, but they weren’t playing it campy. No. And somehow this whole combination just, it really worked. I’ve never seen it quite like this before. It really did. 

Craig: I mean, it is, I I would say that it’s one of those movies that’s so bad. It’s good. But also, and you mentioned this before, it, it. It, it feels like they get it.

It feels like they’re in on the joke. Like they know what they’re doing. Yeah. They’re, they’re not trying to make a, a classic, they’re trying to make something schlocky and it is schlocky and it’s super, super fun. It’s just really fun to watch. I, I read afterwards that they’ve done this on the, how did this Get Made podcast, and I was so tempted to listen to it because that’s one of my favorite podcasts.

Not that we really need to plug. Pods on ours, but I, I’m happy to plug theirs. They don’t need it. They’re all famous. . No . Yeah. But, but it is, it’s one of my favorite podcasts and I can’t, uh, I can’t wait to hear their episode on it, see what they had to say about it. And, and then when I was, um, I was just looking for stuff and, and it came out on Blu-ray.

It was only released in Japan. initially. Uh, and then I think it went straight to video here like a couple years later. And then eventually, I think in like 2014 or something, they released it on either DVD or Blu-ray, I think Blu-Ray. And there’s a featurette, there’s like a 50 minute long making of documentary and mm-hmm.

So I was looking for that on YouTube and I couldn’t find it. Um, but I did find a, it’s not riff tracks, but it’s a, uh, riff tracks type deal with guys just sitting and making fun of it. And, and it was just clips. I think you have to subscribe to their Patreon if you want their full episodes. But there were, uh, clips of them riffing on this movie, uh, and it was hilarious and I laughed.

Again, you know, this was, yeah, an hour after I had watched the movie. I laughed at all these same things again, if you want to have, you know, I, I know Todd, you with your friends when you were a teenager, used to have these like stupid movie nights. This would be perfect, perfect for that type of thing. Yes.

Get together with your friends, drink like five beers, each

and then, and then put this movie in and just have fun, like, joke on it cuz it it, it’s worthy of it. And I, I just think it’s so funny and so much fun. I, I laughed so hard so many times and that doesn’t happen a lot. 

Todd: No, I mean, I watched this completely sober, which that doesn’t ha always happen. that doesn’t happen a lot.

But, uh, I, I was just, I was just over the moon. Happy with it. Laughed so hard, just could not believe it. Every subsequent scene just gives you another payoff. Uhhuh, , it just keeps moving. It’s never boring. It’s head scratching in a great way. It’s my new, it’s my new favorite bad movie that we’ve, and, and I’m not, and it’s not even a bad movie, that’s the thing.

It’s not bad. It is well made. And I, like you said, I would put it in that category of like Fred Decker, you know, where he’s, where they made a campy movie. Yeah. But they knew they were making it, that’s why they made it this way. Right. Uh, and it’s just fun from beginning to end. Just absolute fun. And apparently it originally was gonna get slapped with an X rating.

I guess they had probably had to cut a couple boobs, probably more so on the violin. I’d imagine Uhhuh to get the art. I I wonder if that Blu-ray has some of the uncut scenes. I 

Craig: don’t know. But, but again, uh, listeners, it, as of the time of this recording, it is streaming for free on Tubi and ah, I think Voodoo.

Yes. And, and a couple of other platforms. Um, so even if you don’t have a subscription, you can, you can, you can find this. Check it out for free. Yeah, check it out for free. And you should. It’s fun. If you need a pick me up, watch this movie. 

Todd: Well, it’s gonna be hard to top this 2023 . 

Craig: I, well, it’s, it’s pretty early on.