2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

This week’s episode is a tribute to Dame Angela Lansbury. Though she was one of the last remaining actresses from Hollywood’s Golden Age, we remember her from so many TV shows and movies in the 80’s, such as Murder She Wrote.

The Company Of Wolves is a surreal, wonderful little fantasy fairy tale that graced the horror shelves of our local video stores, yet turned out to be much headier than either of us expected. Her performance as the grandmother lends weight and complexity to this beautifully shot and directed werewolf story. Enjoy!

The Company Of Wolves (1984)

Episode 319, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well Craig, not much time has passed since our last tribute episode. As most of our longtime listeners know, every time a famous person passes on, we furiously run to i m DB and, uh, look up which horror movies they might have happened to have been in or involved with.

And, uh, last. Angela Lansbury passed away. The Dame Angela Bridget Lansbury, who was almost a hundred years old when she died. An absolute icon of the stage and silver screen and TV screen. I remember her from, Murder She Wrote in the eighties, which was a fantastic series where she played a woman who was a mystery writer and goes out and solves mysteries.

That was such a great series. It, it lasted a really long time, I think from the early eighties until like, uh, the mid nineties. She was in lots of movies, kids movies. She’s actually, when of, when you read the Wikipedia page, it mentions that she’s one of the last surviving persons of the golden age of Hollywood.

I mean, she was born in 1925 and she got started in the 1940s. I believe. She was in Gaslight, National Velvet, the Manchurian candidate. The list goes on and on. I cannot believe that she has stayed acting as long as she has and been as successful as she has just consistently over the years.

And as far as I know, n Narrow controversy or anything, just this sweet woman who, um, Had this wonderful career, so I it’s really kind of sad to hear that she’s 

Craig: gone now. I agree. I mean, what do you say? I, I, I think that, um, Angela Lansbury is just one of those few celebrities who’s kind of universally loved.

I mean, I, I, I can’t think of anything that anybody would have to say that would be negative about her. Yeah, you’re right. You know, she was born in London to prominent parents. Her mother was an actress, her father was a politician, upper middle class British, but she also spent time in Ireland. And she was also, uh, she became, uh, an American citizen as well, and spent a lot of time here.

So I, I imagine that like many international performers, she was able to, uh, adapt her accent as necessary. Um, and yeah, I mean, she. Her parents, uh, moved to the United States. I believe they started out in New York, but pretty quickly transferred to Los Angeles and she started auditioning at, uh, 16 lying saying that she was 19 years old and started working immediately.

I think that, um, she got nominated for an Academy Award for her first role for, uh, best supporting actress and received many, many, many accolades. She was nominated for several Academy awards. She won some Golden Globe Awards, several Tony’s, I think, and, and many others. And rightfully so. Uh, she was a, a great actress.

Of course. Most people, I think, um, our age and younger remember her as Mrs. Potts and Beauty and the Beast. That was one of her biggest popular roles and what she’s widely remembered for. I, I didn’t watch Murder she Wrote. I was very much aware of it, but my parents didn’t watch it, so I didn’t watch it.

But I knew her when I was a kid from Bed. Nos and Broomsticks. I loved that movie. Oh yeah. Very much akin to Mary Poppins. Less popular, but just as fun. She also famous for her theater work. She did Gypsy, She originated the role of May, I think in Sweeney Todd. Uh, she was famous for. Uh, and that her Broadway production of that was actually filmed and is available, you know, if, if you want to see that.

Uh, in fact, I almost wondered if we should have done that . Yeah, because I, I 

Todd: thought about 

Craig: it when she passed away. I thought, Oh man, that’s really sad. And of course, you know, like you said, anytime anybody, not necessarily every celebrity, otherwise every episode would have to be a tribute episode. But people who touched us personally in some way, um, and she certainly did.

She’s been a big part of my childhood and, and she’s been just one of those people who’s been a constant throughout my life. You know, she, she pops up her last film, um, I think it’s still in theaters now. Yeah. It’s in the Knives Out sequel. So she’s always been there. And so, you know, for her to pass is kind of a big deal.

And, uh, I thought, you know, it would be nice to pay tribute to her, but I thought, surely she never did a horror movie. . 

Todd: She did, right. . Now come on. She did. We know Better . I mean, there’s always, That’s always the thing. Surely this person didn’t do a horror movie, and then it always turns out that this actor had some low point in their career or was doing some favor to somebody, or for whatever reason, ended up in this off the wall way outta left field horror movie that nobody saw that got bad reviews.

And we end up doing these, these terrible movie reviews basically for a lot of these, uh, prominent, respectable actors, right? That we paid tribute to . 

Craig: I can’t imagine why she did this movie, but she was first choice and she was asked to do it, and she did the, the only thing that I know is that she was a huge fan.

Of cinema and television and she had diverse tastes. Yeah. So maybe, you know, she was just, maybe she was just one of those people who was kind of up for anything. Oh, yeah. Um, and it is, it’s a, it’s a fitting role for her. It’s a weird movie, . 

Todd: Well, it is. You know, the, the movie we’re talking about is called The Company of Wolves from 1984.

It is listed as a British gothic fantasy horror film. And I saw this, uh, didn’t you, I I used to see this in the horror section all the time because Oh yeah. The 

Craig: box art is incredibly familiar. 

Todd: Oh. And it’s extremely captivating. It’s this, uh, girl, and then there’s this, it’s, it’s like the woods, but there’s, uh, right in the front, right in your face is this man who’s in the midst of transforming into a werewolf.

And the way it’s happening is like, basically his mouth is wide open and the the wolf’s ma is coming out of its mouth. Like this wolf is literally bursting out of this guy’s. It’s really compelling. I don’t know why I never picked it up, to be honest, because I was super interested in it. So when I saw that she was in this movie, number one, I was like, really

And number two, I was, oh my gosh. She, she’s listed number one on the credits, uh, as a supposed title role here. And uh, this is a movie I’ve been wanting to see for so long. So I know we could have done Sweeney Todd and she’s got a more prominent role in Sweeney Todd, but it’s like a stage musical, it’s like a recording of a stage musical.

So I thought, ah, you know, this would be better. So yeah, I was a little selfish when I proposed to Craig. And Craig never turned down anything I proposed. He might regret it later, but he never turns down anything . So, bless you for letting us do the Company of Wolves. This movie was not at all. What I had expected, uh, not in the slightest.

And I will, I say that in a good way. Gosh, I, I’ve been, I’ve been, uh, well this is the kind of movie that I watch and I’m really, really glad that, um, you’re an English teacher and you spend your day going through textual criticism and, uh, unpacking layers of meaning and symbolism and texts with kids because, uh, I feel like your skills are gonna come in, come in handy with this one

Cuz this movie, it, it’s heady. Yeah. It’s way headier than I thought it would be. It’s much more literary than I thought it would be. It’s based on a short story from a woman, a novelist named Angela Carter, who was a well acclaimed, uh, feminist writer who wrote a book that’s basically a compilation. It’s called The Bloody Chamber, but it seems like it’s a compilation of more or less werewolf stories.

Yeah. It more or less unpacks the story of Little Red writing. Yeah. You know, honestly, when you, when you listen to fairy tales as a kid, you never think of subtext, right? . You never think, where did this come from? What is this really saying? Is there anything more to this than just a cute story or some little morality tale?

Hey little girl, be careful when you walk through the woods, kind of thing. But there is, and there always has been deep layers of subtext in this and, and most fairy tales and old folk legends that pass by over time and yet interpreted and reinterpreted. But at the core, when you think about Little Red Riding Hood, it’s.

D danger of, of men to girls. Men can be right. Wolves. And this girl is walking through the woods. I e uh, she’s going through life . She has a red hood, which can symbolize her blood menstrual cycle, uh, things like that. She might be coming to adolescents, and here you are when you’re an adolescent suddenly becoming attractive to men, and men start approaching you.

And not all of them have the best of intentions, right? So this is a, a story that really dives deep into that. But it’s not straightforward at all. It’s not straightforward in it’s narrative structure. It’s not even straightforward in its story. But, uh, I was glued to the screen, but also I was just scratching my head through a lot of it, thinking, Oh God, we’re gonna have to, we’re gonna have to analyze this , 

Craig: I guess.

I don’t know. I did, I did not know what to make of it. It, it’s, it’s bizarre, you know, first of all, Little Red Riding Hood on the surface is very clearly about stranger danger, you know? Yeah. Te teaching kids don’t talk to strangers. Okay. Very simple. But as you suggested, it’s not difficult to scratch just below that and find sexuality at play.

Um, and this movie explores that a lot. It really leans heavy into that element of it. So the movie. Starts out in real life. Mm-hmm. . It’s weird. Yeah. I, I it still feels, period, but, um, I’m not sure exactly what period it’s meant to be. 

Todd: It really runs that line, doesn’t it? Uhhuh, I mean, from the first few scenes, which there are no people in, it’s the woods that comes a comes onto this old looking.

Well, in the woods there’s a, a, a dog that pops in and, and sniffs around the well, and you can see that there’s a doll that’s very old looking doll that’s been maybe stuck for centuries in the, uh, the brush there by it. And he runs out and I’m immediately, I don’t know why, but I’m immediately thinking this is a period piece.

Right. Just the tone and look of it. And when the dog runs out of the woods to a street and a sedan comes driving down the road, I was really jarred. Mm-hmm. , my mind couldn’t adjust because even when the sedan pulls into the house, it’s going to, it’s this countryside mansion, this little British countryside, manion manor.

And this girl comes running out in. Flowy white Lacey kind of dress. Right. It, it’s, there’s so many little things about the house and what they’re wearing and the setting that bounce you back and forth and it’s hard to resolve in my head and I, I have to believe that was intentional. 

Craig: Yeah, I imagine so.

And, and this girl greets her. It’s her parents arriving in a car, I don’t know where they’ve been on holiday or something. And they ask about, they’re like, Where is she? And I didn’t know who I thought they were probably talking about the grandmother cause I knew there was gonna be a grandmother . Right.

But they weren’t, I guess the girl that we’ve seen thus far is the older sister Alice. And she goes upstairs and is kind of snotty and tormenting her younger sister Rosaline, who is asleep in her bed. It seems like she’s disturbed in her sleep and, and that’s this frame story is that she’s dreaming and she dreams.

The very first thing that she dreams is that her sister is dead. They’re at her sister’s funeral. Well, I guess we see her sister running through the forest. Yeah. That’s the first thing we see. Well, and it’s, it’s, it’s not just any forest. Most of this, almost all of it is set in these woods and in this village.

In the woods. Yes. And, and apparently it’s right outside of Rosalie’s window, like she can see. The area where it is outside 

Todd: of her window, but the camera kind of pans out the window. It pans across her room and shows all of her toys first, and then it pans out the window. Yeah. And 

Craig: then when the sister is being chased through these woods, they’re clearly fantasy woods.

There’s like large oversized towed stools and the toys from Rosalyn’s Room are there, but they’re like life size, person size. Mm-hmm. . Um, and they move and, and like walk around and chase, uh, Alice. Um, and eventually Alice is pursued by a whole pack of wolves. There’s tons of wolves in this movie. Actually, that’s not really true.

There are only two wolves in this movie. The rest, uh, are dogs 

Todd: painted to look like wolves? painted to look like wolves, but we don’t know . 

Craig: Well, I mean, it’s close enough. Yeah, it’s close enough, right? I guess. I mean, you don’t see it. You just see the wolves surround her and she screams. But then the next thing is at her outdoor countryside funeral, and she’s just in a pine box that they nail shut, and all of a sudden we’re in this fantasy fairytale world where we spend most of the time, but it keeps cutting back to Rosaline asleep and like crying or moaning or thrashing in her sleep while all of these events are going on.

Yeah. Now I read that they filmed all of the main story and then they decided that they wanted to do. frame thing that was in real life, and I don’t really get why I don’t get it. 

Todd: Here’s what I think. I, I think it’s kind of a, um, a way to show that this is a timeless tale. That it’s, it’s as relevant to modern day, at least to themes and things as it is to the past.

And so, even though it’s a dream that this, this girl is having, and also there’s a little bit of ambiguity, right, because she’s dreaming, but we, it has already been established that these places actually exist. Uhhuh and, and she plays the little Red riding. She plays herself in her own dream and Right.

And her 

Craig: parents are her, her parents. 

Todd: Yeah, her parents are there and you know, they’re, Now in this village, just outside of the house where she’s in and later in the dream world, there’s, there’s stories within stories by the way, right? In this, in this narrative. And one of the stories, uh, surrounds an upper crust British party, and that’s taking place in the law and outside of the home where she’s in right now.

Yeah. So there’s this strong sense of history. There’s a strong sense of her hereditary progression, ancestry, this kind of thing. But it’s so confusing, right? Because you’re, you’re waiting for an explanation for all of this. Like, you know, is she a descendant of these people? Is right. Was, was there some time war, but what’s going on?

And you never get it. You never get it. It’s, it’s very thematic. The director, um, Neil Jordan has done, uh, well, he won an Academy Award for writing, I think for writing, but he also directed The Crying Game. Uh, that was a huge movie in 92. He’s done a lot of well regarded movies, I should say. They’re not all 

Craig: Big.

Interview With The Vampire was the biggest one I was familiar with. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. He, he’s a pretty good director. And I have to say, I, I was, I was impressed by the directing and the, the set design. Really a lot of the production of this movie I was really impressed with. Now he co collaborated, by the way, with Angela Carter on this.

Yeah. 

Craig: And they had a really good relationship. I guess that’s the thing, the source material, like you said, was just a collection of short stories, but then that collection of short stories was adapted into a radio production. And I think that it was in that radio production that they kind of structured it so that it was stories within stories mm-hmm.

so that there was a one big larger narrative. Um, but then within that larger narrative, Some of the smaller stories are told, and that makes sense. And that’s really what they based the film on. Was the radio production more so than just the original book? 

Todd: Yeah, that’s true. But I think Jordan also, uh, was, was inspired by a movie called the SAR manuscript, which is a Polish film from 1965 that did this also, that had story within story, kind of what he called.

A Chinese puzzle box of structure. Yeah. Uh, not only did he cite that as a inspiration, but also Roger Corman. Right. Roger Corman’s, um, uh, Ed ground post series as inspiration for this film as well. So I thought that was kind of interesting. I wouldn’t have seen that, but now that he mentions that, I, I do see it.

Yes. Cause those were all period pieces 

Craig: too. And then at the end it’s like the world’s collide. Yeah. Like the fantasy world in her real world collide. But it’s really, it’s kind, It’s a little bit anti climax. I mean, it looks good what they do. At the end, it looks good, but ultimately I just felt like the frame narrative was unnecessary.

I, I don’t know. Anyway, it’s fine. I just didn’t think that it was necessary because the rest of it feels like, A reimagining of a classic fairytale, just a little bit darker and for a little bit more of a mature audience. Yeah. But it, it does feel very much like a fairytale because it fe it doesn’t feel like the real world.

Oh, at all. It’s filmed on sets, which are very clearly sets. The costumes are very clearly 

Todd: costumes. Now wait a minute though. When you say they’re very clearly sets, you’re not, you’re not saying that the sets look bad, right? No, they look fake. They just look so unreal. There’s no way these could be anything but sets, is what you’re saying.

Right. And it, 

Craig: and it almost looks like not almost, It very much looks like a stage production. I think so with set pieces. I mean, the set pieces to me look like stage set pieces. Mm. They don’t, I mean, it’s good. It it, I think that that’s what they’re going for. I don’t think they’re going for a, a realistic look.

Absolutely. I think they are going for a fantasy. Yeah. And, and it looks like that. And, and I’m, I’m not saying it in a bad way. I’m, it’s not. I’m not. Offering this as a criticism, right? It’s just, this is a fantasy world. This does not look like the real world. It looks like a forest and a fairytale. It is dark, it is scary.

There’s all kinds of, At one point I’m like, what is with all these frogs, like, I don’t understand . There are so many frogs. What? I don’t get it. 

Todd: I’ll tell you, Ben. See, I’ve been thinking a lot about this movie. I don’t have the definitive answer about the frogs, but I have an idea about the frogs because frogs are, they’re another sort of fairy tale thing.

Like a lot of animals are, right? The, the spider and the fly and the lion in the mouse and whatever. But like frogs are the thing you kiss for your prince. Sure. They’re sometimes seen as men in disguise, you know? And the all the girl has to do is kiss it and this ugly, ugly frog turns into a beautiful prince.

It’s sort of the opposite of the wolf. This, this, um, educ. You know, man, who’s really, really nice, uh, once you interact with him, suddenly turns out to be this horrible monster, you know, that, that wants to kill you. And I thought that the frogs seemed to really reference a lot of grandma, Like grandma had frogs, little frog statues and things in her house.

And I might be reading too much into it, but I thought that perhaps that was a little nod to, or perhaps like the men she’s had in her life or that, you know, her husband long passed or something like that. I, I don’t know. That sounds, that’s what I thought 

Craig: anyway. Well, I mean, I don’t think, I don’t think you’re wrong to read something into it.

You know, I always tell my students when we’re studying literature, I say, If a writer keeps bringing something up over and over again, if an image gets, keeps getting presented to you over and over again, there’s a reason for it. They don’t just do this for no reason. And so I have to kind of think the same thing here.

There’s, there’s, there’s gotta be something, I don’t know if I get it, but for the number of times we see frogs, which is a lot , there’s gotta be something to it. Um, and I, of course I thought that too. You know, like the, the prince in disguise or whatever, um, there’s also a, a giant snake, a python or something that, uh, it gets lots of screen time just hanging out in the forest.

Yeah. And usually people just walk right by it and don’t even notice that they’re like, within inches of it, you know, inches from their face. And, you know, of course then there’s all kinds of connotations with snakes, with the, the story of Adam and Eve and the serpent. And then snakes also have kind of a, a sexual, you know, phallic kind of connotation thing too.

And, and the movie. Much of it is about sexuality. So I don’t know, but it’s, it’s, it’s strange. It’s interesting. It is interesting to present a well known fairytale, which by the way, it takes a while to get to. Yeah. It’s set up from the beginning, you know, that you’re dealing with Little Red Riding Hood and her grandmother and the grandmother lives out in the forest, and you have to stay on the path to get to grandmother’s house.

And that’s, you know, repeated over and over again how important it is and how dangerous it is to stray from the path. And so, you know, that’s what you’re dealing with. But it takes a long time to get there, to get to the actual story that we are familiar with of Little Red Riding Hood. You get there, but not until the very end of the movie.

And the, the rest of it is kind of several other stories about WW Wolves. Just in the context of Little Red Riding Hood. Yeah. As though, you know, like , the, the story that we know of Little Red Riding Hood is just one story of this community that was plagued by Werewolves. , yeah. 

Todd: Basically, Yes. These poor people , Well they do live in the woods, I suppose in the ancient woods at that.

Uh, you know, before we move on, uh, from talking about the production design, I just wanna say, just to be clear, and I think you’re saying it too, the production design. Gorgeous. Yeah, it is absolutely unreal. It, I was blown away because I’m just so used, especially these movies that I saw on the horror shelves, Right.

As a kid and never got to, and then I get to them and they’re usually pretty disappointing or at least they’re usually pretty cheap. I was shocked at how gorgeous the sets were in this movie. Uh, they fully had me in this world. They were unreal. They were beautiful. And the production designer got a lot of attention for his work in this.

His name is Anton first. He’s no longer with us, but he did, uh, actually he did special effects for Alien before this. Oh. Um, and then he ended up, uh, doing a couple more movies. This movie got him an attention from Stanley Kubrick who hired him on to do full metal jacket, and later he went on to do production design for Tim Burton’s original Batman.

He was the production designer for that. And that has a crazy style, right? Yeah. It’s amazing. This guy is super talented and to hear him talk, he said, We had such a low budget for this movie that we had to make 12 trees look like a forest and and they 

Craig: did. That’s hard to 

Todd: believe. It’s phenomenal. It’s 

Craig: phenomenal.

It seems like this forest is. Massive and it would be so easy to become lost, uh, in it to find out that it was only 12 trees is is insane. It’s really 

Todd: insane. It’s otherworldly this forest, it has vines and it’s, it’s your perfect fairytale forest. And like you said, the village that they’re in is, is perfect fairytale village from all the illustrations in your fairy tale books, it, it’s, it’s small, right?

And I think that’s what makes it look a little stagey. It’s like six buildings around a little well in the middle of the woods and that’s it. Which is kind of suitable because then you can believe that in the future, you know, all this went away. But that well is still there and it’s right down the street from where this house is.

It, it’s really great. I just wanted to, I just wanted to call attention to this guy and the great job he did on the production design cuz it really helped with 

Craig: the story. Oh, I agree. I mean, it, it sets the tone perfectly. It’s, it’s dark and, and creepy. I like it a lot. So Alice is, Apparently killed by this pack of wolves.

And then there’s a funeral and Rosaly goes home with her grandmother because her mother is mourning and in no condition to look after her or whatever. Um, so she walks through the woods with granny, Don’t stray from the pots. Go. You do not hear what I told you. Once you stray from the path, you are lost entirely.

The wild beast slowed all mercy. They wait for us in the wood in the. And once you put a foot wrong, they count. There. There now don’t take on. So it’s something you have to learn, otherwise you’ll end up like your boy sister Angela Lansbury. She was handpicked for this role because, uh, the director was impressed with her performance in the Mansur candidate.

Um, he said that she had kind of this sly cunning charm Yes. That made her perfect for this. And, and I agree. She’s, she’s not sweet little Mrs. Potts in this movie. No. She, she’s got an edge to it. 

Todd: She almost feels a little sinister at times, doesn’t she? Uhhuh . Yeah. It was really, really 

Craig: grateful for She’s good.

Yeah, she’s, she’s very good a wolf. Maybe more than he seems. He may come in many disguises. What’s that? The wolf that ate. Your sister was hairy on the outside, but when she died, she went straight to heaven. The worst kind of rules are hairy on the inside, and when they bite you, they drag you with them to 

Todd: hell.

don’t trust man.

Craig: Right. And she gives her this advice. She’s like, You, you’re, you’re young, you’ve got things to learn. This girl, Rosaline is supposed to be almost 13. She’s not even 13, She’s only 12. She looks older. She does, If I hadn’t known from reading about it that she was meant to be just shy of 13, I would’ve guessed 16.

Yeah. 17, maybe. Huh? 

Todd: She’s 12. The actress is 12. It’s crazy. 

Craig: The actress is 12 and there’s no mention of her age in the movie, but there is a trailer. in which there’s this scene where she says how I, I think it’s this scene when the, when the grandmother says, You’re young, you have a lot to learn. She says something like, Well, I’m 12 and three quarters or something like that.

I don’t know. But, uh, she says, You’ve got a lot to learn. Um, there are three lessons, never straight from the path. Never eat a windfall apple and never trust a man whose eyebrows meat. And I love that. A uni brow is the, like definitive characteristic of werewolf . And every werewolf in this movie has a uni brow.

Yeah, I love it.

Todd: You know, it’s weird. , I guess it’s, it’s kind of rare enough that you might as well make it a thing. I also like that because, uh, you know, it’s always cool when a movie does some foreshadowing and, uh, lets you in on how you can spot the quote unquote bad guys, right? So that whenever somebody comes on the scene with the uni out instantly ups the tension.

You’re like, Oh, this guy’s scary. That’s when she, she’s knitting her, her red shawl and she starts her first story. She tells her a story about a wolf. It’s presented as a flashback. It’s this woman’s wedding night, and she has married a traveling man. So obviously someone from outside of the town, they’ve just finished their wedding celebration.

He brings her. He’s, uh, very taken by her. He’s kind of looking her very lasly, I don’t wanna say lovingly, because it doesn’t really feel that way. He’s eyeing his own wife here. She’s so taken aback by it that she says, Don’t they have girls where you come from? And he says, Not like you. And there’s a porcupine there that’s kind of running around, and he tosses that porcupine 

Craig: hedgehog.

It wasn’t a, was 

Todd: it a hedgehog? I don’t know. I don’t have whatever, porcupine hedgehog. They both, they both hurt when you pick ’em up. , . Anyway, uh, he, he runs to the door and tosses it out, and as soon as he tosses it out and you start to hear these wolf house and you see that it’s a full moon, he turns back to look at her and says, I need to go out for a moment, A Call of Nature , which was a funny double entendre.

But when he looks back at her, you can see that his eyes have changed. They’re yellowish. I thought it was really effective. It’s really, really creepy, but mm-hmm. just. Natural, and I mean, it’s not natural, but just, it’s not like, you know, he started sprouting subtle fangs or anything. Right, right. So that he’s still human and can, can act human.

It’s, it’s really creepy. So she gets in bed, she’s extremely happy, she’s waiting for him, and he’s gone. Uh, and when she wakes up, there are just lots of wolves outside howling. And her thought is, Oh my God, it can’t be, She thinks he’s been carried. By wolves while he was peeing. And so she calls the townspeople in.

And I can, by the way, I can’t get over how many animals there are in the background, scenery, , uhhuh. There are just lots, There are goose and like you said, frogs and things. And almost every scene outdoors, just like wandering around in the front. Lots of of birds. Yeah. 

Craig: Chickens, turkeys, all kinds 

Todd: of things.

And anyway, you know, people are saying to her, Well, she, he’s gone. Did they find something? I can’t remember. I don’t remember what, what, what happened. No, I 

Craig: mean, she found, she. Like wolf paw prints. Yeah. But that’s it. No, no trace of him. Um, but he never came back. It was funny to me that he went out to Pete, fully nude Yeah.

because they were, they were in town. Hey, 

It 

Todd: was a different time. Craig . 

Craig: Yes. Yeah. But he, he never comes back and years go by, but, And grandma says, But she was young and, and had a, a charming personality. So she remarried and, and she had 

Todd: kids. She found another husband who wasn’t too shy to piss in a pot.

Yeah, . 

Craig: Love that line. That was funny. And just to hear Angela Lansbury say it, I have a feeling, you know, we look at Angela Lansbury, she’s this older woman, She’s very distinguished. I have a feeling that she was probably a, a fun old day. Mm. You know, like, Hang hung out with gay dudes. I I, I have a feeling this lady had a good sense of humor and, and knew how to have a good time.

Oh, yeah. But it’s just, it’s fun to see her in something like this where she has the opportunity to be a little bit more gruff and a little bit CRAs. Yeah. At times too. It’s, it’s, it is 

Todd: cool. Yeah. When you, especially when all you’ve been seeing is mostly of her on the TV screen playing this cute lady in a very pg TV show, you know?

It’s funny because not only does she have babies, she just seems angry and miserable. Like, Yeah. So anyway, yeah, she’s to home and she’s angry and she’s miserable. She’s got these kids and it’s like she’s got one kid in her arm and then you hear crying and she’s like, What the hell do you want? Turns around and then shut out another baby there, , she grabs that baby.

She walks over to the table, You realize there’s a third baby. I thought like this was just gonna be a running gag where this woman has like 12 kids and we’re just gonna see a new one. produced every time the seed changes. But yeah, it’s very clear that she’s a, a stay at home mom and she’s not happy about it.

Far from the romantic image that we had from her years before, uh, there’s a knock at the door and she opens it and it’s her ex-husband after all these years, and he’s quite shaggy. He comes in, he’s angry, starts calling her a whore. Where did these kids come from? Who are you with? And then we get our first really major horror element.

He starts peeling the skin off his face. It’s. Very gory, very awesome version. I think of a werewolf transformation for practical effects. I think it’s pretty good and it’s unique. It’s not as good as like Rick Baker’s transformation in, you know, American wear Wolf in London. But it’s a different style of transformation.

It’s like the wolf is like literally inside of him and is breaking itself out. He peels off his skin, off his face with his hand down to down to muscle layer, Uhhuh , and then you see the snout kind of shoot out from there. Uh, and you see the rest of his body, like his back just almost just steps out of his skin.

Really. Yeah. 

Craig: He’s all just tendon and muscle and raw 

Todd: and so gross. It’s gross, but it’s great . 

Craig: Yeah, it looks, it looks really good. It’s, it’s a little strange because I was gonna say that it’s not consistent with the transformations of the rest of the time. I, I guess it is really? Yeah. I, I think that the wolf kind of pops out of the human body rather than, the human body transforming into, Yeah.

Uh, but, but this is the only time that we see. Anybody like ripping their flesh off? Yeah. Later we’ll see like their flesh split like at the spine, or we’ll see the wolf snout come out through the human mouth. But this is by far the most gorian graphic 

Todd: transformation. And you know, I think it serves the themes of the story very well because granny is constantly telling her, You need to be careful of wool’s i e Ben, because they’re, it’s like they’re putting on a mask for you.

They’re gonna be all sweet and nice to you until they have you. And then you’re gonna see their true nature, you know, their hairiness on the inside. And so it’s not like this is a Doctor Jacqueline and Mr. Hyde situation where this person is half good, half bad. I think what she’s trying to say is these people are just putting on airs.

They’re wearing the skin of nice, of, of, of humans, but they’re actually wolves in disguise. 

Craig: Well, right. And but granny is basically saying, cuz the girl asks, she’s like, All men and granny’s, like wild, a wild animals. All of ’em. Like, Yeah. Yeah. All men. She’s bitter, all men bitter. They’ll, they’ll be nice to you until they get what they want.

And then you’ll see their true side. And, and she even asks, like, first of all, she kind of watches her parents have sex, which was weird, but 

Todd: also common for the time. , 

Craig: I guess. But ew and I say that, but it’s not graphic. No. I mean, it, it seems like, you know, it’s not some grunting. Yeah. I mean, they even, they’re, they have their clothes, their night clothes on.

It’s, it’s, it’s more suggested than anything else. Um, but it is certainly suggested because the next day she asks her mom, Mommy, 

Todd: yes, pets. 

Craig: Does he hurt you? Does who hurt me? Does daddy hurt you when any, No, not at all. Sounds like, 

Todd: Like what? Like the beast Granny talked about. It’s weird. 

Craig: I don’t know. I don’t know if we’re reading too much into it.

Like is it supposed to be commentary on the relationship between men and women? The nature of men? I, I, I just can’t tell if I’m supposed to take it that seriously or if it’s just 

Todd: a stupid, Well, actually I think it’s a, I think it’s probably more of an exploration of what goes through an adolescent girl’s head when she’s learning about all these things.

For the first. I think it’s very clear. Like she’s sowing this red sha for her. She’s coming into her menstrual period. You know, I, I think that’s what we’re all talking about here. Grandma’s starting to tell her the truth about the real world. We all know, like into the woods, uh, the woods is a sort of metaphor at times for going through the difficulties of life or going through the, the hard changes of life.

Yeah. And all the dangers that be set you. And so this is another part of it is like sex, like learning about sex. Like when you first learn about sex, sometimes it’s like a horrifying, weird thing. And perhaps even more for women because, you know, male females, sex relationship. Yeah. There’s submissive. And so when she sees her dad grunting and, you know, on top of her mom and her mom with her eyes closed and whatever, you know, it, it, she’s not sure what to make of it.

And when you couple that with what grandma said to her, it’s natural for her to even think that the sex act itself might be this, you know, you know, it, it’s just, it’s, it’s creepy for her and. I can relate to that. Yeah. I, when I first learned about sex, you know, I was super confused about it and I wasn’t sure what to make of it either.

And it did seem a little sinister to me too because, well, I grew up in the eighties and I remember everybody was talking about aids and I just thought, I just heard that you have sex that gives you AIDS and so, and you’ll die. Yeah. And so I thought sex leads to aids, that that’s how I first heard and thought about sex.

So I had needed a lot of correction there. I thought it was a bad thing. Yeah. So I think that’s kind of what they were exploring here. Um, I’m sure 

Craig: you’re right. I’m sure you’re right. The whole in Little Red Riding Hood and. Even Little Red Riding Hood in into the woods. It’s very much about sex and, and that kind of, in the original Broadway production of, Into the Woods, the wolf has a prominent penis , like, like he, he, he doesn’t wear pants and he has a prominent penis Oh, wow.

Uh, right there on display. And it’s easy to see that, you know, in the original story as well. I don’t know. It, it, it just, it felt a little bit heavy handed here. Yeah. And I think I was maybe getting a little bit of male fragility, like, Hey, we’re not . Not that bad. We’re not, Yeah. True. But that’s, that’s probably just my insecurities.

I should 

Todd: Well, it is heavy handed . No, there’s no question. I mean, uh, you watched this movie and nothing else, and you just get the sense that all men are dangerous. Really , 

Craig: well, not, not necessarily all men because the dad is good. True. We didn’t finish out that, that, the other story. So eventually this woman, her original husband comes back out of nowhere.

His, he’s got all this long. And he’s angry and, and basically calls her a whore for having children that aren’t his. And that’s when he transforms and it looks like he’s going to attack her, but her husband comes back and chops his head off. Mm-hmm. , Yeah. Chops his head off and it flies into like the wash bucket or something, but when it floats back up, uh, it’s huge.

Todd: Oh. And it’s such a cool effect. Mm-hmm. , it’s slow motion. It happens so seamlessly. It’s so this whole movie is so stylized and that was a great shot. 

Craig: Yeah. And then we cut back to, you know, just rosalyn’s day-to-day life. She goes back home and I was saying, you know, not all the men in this movie are bad.

Her dad is a good guy. Her dad has played by David. Uh, the Waxwork 

Todd: guy 

Craig: Wener, David Werner, who was really aside from Angela Lansbury, I think the only person that I recognized from this movie, except for the guy who plays the Devil Terrence stamp. Oh yeah. He, he makes just a cameo appearance and I’m like, Uh, that’s General Zod.

Yeah. I look, he’s uncredited in the 

Todd: movie. It’s crazy. He’s in everything that I looked 

Craig: it up. Yeah, he’s cool. Anyway, so, so the, the dad’s nice. There’s this boy, he’s hardly anybody in this movie has names. Yeah. Um, except for Rosaline and her sister. But there’s this boy who’s billed as Amorous boy, who is seemingly about her age, maybe a little bit older, but he’s obviously.

Attempting to woo her. I thought maybe you’d take a walk with me in the woods on Sunday after the service. Just a little Wal Rosaline. Why should I, I thought maybe you’d want to, I’ll have to ask, but tell your mother aren’t be with you. I mean, walk straight from the path. Um, and initially their first encounter is very childish.

And then as the movie goes on a little bit, it becomes a little bit more mature and flirtatious. And, um, he’s clearly interested in her. Eventually she becomes interested in him and he seems like a nice boy. Like it seems like the story is setting you up. Oh, this will eventually be the boy that she’ll marry.

Mm-hmm. , which would be fine. . He seems cute and nice, whatever. That’s not the way that the story goes, but yeah, , No, it’s not , but he invites her for a walk in the woods after church and she’s like, I don’t know. I’ll have to ask my parents. And then we. Just get Granny’s second story, . It’s not as clunky as I’m making it sound.

No, it works. It’s stories within a story. Within a story, and I just don’t think that it needs that last outer layer. Mm. I I would kind of have just preferred to live in this world and not have the. Outer world of the reality. But I, I guess I get what he was going for. It just didn’t necessarily work for me.

It’s fine. I’m, it’s not a huge complaint. But anyway, Yeah. Grandma’s second story. Well, grandma’s 

Todd: second story is basically they say the priests bastards often turn into wolves, which , which I think is cute. I, I don’t know if, if this was a different time or what, but you know, priests famously can’t marry, but they’re, you know, they might be having amorous relationships.

Anyway, I, I just think this as funny. So anyway, it says, uh, the priest bastards often turn into woods if they’re born like feet first, and of course their eyebrows meet. And then one day they’ll meet the devil in the wood. And this boy, again, we’re back in this period time, even earlier than granny and this boy’s wandering through the woods.

And this Rolls Royce pulls up . Yeah. It’s so cool. And there’s a guy in the back and, and he’s the devil. Well, and the, the 

Craig: chauffeur. Is Rosaline in a 

Todd: blonde wig? Oh, you’re right. I I wondered about that. I wondered if I was just seeing things. No, it was for sure. Okay, . All right. Fair enough. That’s weird. I don’t know what to make of that either.

So anyway, there’s a man in the back, uh, and he’s holding an infant skull, which I read in the trivia. That was an actual pig me skull that they acquired for the movie, which is creepy. And he is got a little potion and he gives it to the boy and says, Use it wisely. Waste not want not. And the boy seems to know what to do, like he’s made this deal with a devil or something.

Uh, and he rubs it on his chest and he starts growing hair on his chest. And in true evil, dead fashion, the vines of the forest start to crawl up his legs. And uh, I guess that’s the forest claiming him as a creature. I 

Craig: don’t know. I didn’t know what to make of it because he screams as if an agony and his face is all contorted.

But that’s the end of the story. Then it cuts to real life, present day, Rosaline riding around in her bed, and the image of that boy with his face all contorted is in her mirror. Yeah. I, I, I really didn’t know what to make of that 

Todd: story. I didn’t know if it was an adolescence thing. Like the boy comes to adolescence and, you know, goes through all these changes, which can be horrifying and do involve, you know, growing hair and whatnot.

And then, you know, there’s a temptation element in it where then they’re sort of like smitten by the devil with this lust, if you will, for women, which they can use wisely or use in bad ways. I don’t know. That’s, that’s my feminist interpretation of it, . Fair enough. But, but, but it’s funny. She says you can’t trust any, Well, she says, uh, the girls Rosaline back in the back with her grandmother says, That’s a horrid story.

I didn’t like it at all. And grandmother says, You can’t trust anyone, a priest, least of all, he isn’t called father for nothing. 

Craig: what with these lines I. I know I didn’t get it. 

Todd: he’s claiming to be pure and um, and, uh, shape, but actually he’s, he’s out having sex and fathering children, I think is what, what she’s saying, I guess.

But yeah, at this point a mother, uh, grandmother has finished the red s shawl and, uh, she puts it on this girl and it’s a striking contrast with the rest of the scenery, which is pretty drab and, and gray and Uhhuh . This is when now she’s ready to meet the boy and go out on this initial experimentation with him out in the woods by herself, which is interesting the way that the men in her family and around her approach this, her mom is full of, you know, be careful.

It’s dangerous. Don’t stray from the path. Be careful what he might do. And her dad is almost. Yeah, it’s cool. Less concerned, really. Yeah. Boys will be boys. The boys dad as they’re running off, shouts after ’em. That’s my boy, as the grandma shouts af after him. You know, be careful. Don’t straight from the path.

It’s really an interesting contrast brought to light there of, of the way that even these adult men and women treat their, their kids when they’re going through this period. I 

Craig: think. Yeah. I, yeah, So they, so they, they walk and he immediately kind of puts the move on her. It’s. Aggressive in a, a bad way. I mean, he seems sweet and he seems smitten with her and, and he wants to kiss her.

And she runs away initially. But, uh, eventually he kind of teases her and says, What are you scared? And she’s like, No, I’m not scared. So they kiss and um, she runs and he chases and then she climbs a tree and he passes underneath it, but doesn’t see her. And then she finds like a heron’s nest, some big bird up in the tree and in the nest the heron flies off and there’s this, uh, This big wide shot of her, this little tiny red figure up in this super tall tree against like a, a matte painting.

It looks totally fake, but it’s still kind of cool looking. Mm-hmm. , she finds in this nest a looking glass and three eggs, and then the eggs hatch and they have ceramic. Baby Jesus is in 

Todd: them. Yes. What baby dolls? I don’t know, but were they Jesus? I thought they were 

Craig: just dolls. I don’t know. I mean, they, they looked like a baby Jesus from a major.

Yeah. Yeah, they did. But they could have just as easily just been any generic infants. True . 

Todd: It’s weird. It gets very surreal. I mean, there’s no I, Well, 

Craig: right , because then the boy finds a slaughtered cow with its calf like hanging around near the corpse, which I thought was sad and gross. And then Rosalyn on her way back into town, walks right past a wolf.

And the boy comes back without her and a fight breaks out because they think that he’s done something to her. But then she shows back up and she shows her mom the ceramic baby and it sheds a tear. Yeah. 

Todd: like, what? I don’t, I honestly, at first I thought is, are they trying to say she’s pregnant now or something?

Uh, yeah. I wasn’t sure what to make of that either. I’m still not sure what to make. But it, I’m not either. I mean, , there’s no question that as the director and production designer both said that Salvador Dolly was one of their inspirations for the side of this movie. There’s a lot of 

Craig: surreal, and I can see it.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. . And so the men of the town set up a hunt and they set a trap for the wolf and they dig a a pit, and then they put a duck on top of it as bait and. This was one of the times they used a real wolf, and the wolf approached the duck, but the duck quacked at it and it got scared and ran away. So they had to reshoot it the next day with the different wolf.

I thought that was hilarious, that the duck scared the wolf away. . Right. But in the movie, they actually do capture the wolf and they kill it. And the dad cuts off a paw, I guess, as a souvenir. I don’t know. Yeah. Um, but then the paw turns into a human hand, um, and the rest of the body turned back, uh, human too.

So he throws the hand in the fire while the men are out hunting. Rosalyn and her mom are just hanging out at home and rosalyn’s like, Well, I’ll tell you a story. And that’s when she tells this weird aristocratic story. Yeah, 

Todd: This was, That’s weird. This was the most bizarre, I think of the all, Honestly, I 

Craig: feel like I’ve seen this or something like it before.

I feel like I’ve seen another where Wolf movie. In this time period where it’s like, uh, English powdered faced, powdered wig aristocrats turning into where Wells, I don’t know. Maybe it’s this, maybe I’ve seen this. Yeah. Anyway, tell ’em what 

Todd: happens. Well, uh, they’re just at this wedding banquet that’s in a tent on the grounds, as I said earlier, of the actual house that Rosalie was, is sleeping in, but obviously in previous time.

And, uh, they’re all ch chatting and eating. And the, the couple, the wedding couple is, And, uh, a woman comes walking in from outside and she, she’s not as noble as they are, I suppose. She looks haggard and she’s young and she’s pregnant, and she parades in front of ’em and grabs an apple and spits it out at the groom and starts lecturing them and basically says, So I wasn’t good enough for you.

I was once upon a time, Don’t you remember? Even the wolves in the forest are more decent, and, and she’s, her anger is fierce. She cracks a mirror just by looking at it and, and it seems to cast dispel over everyone. Or maybe it just causes them to transform into their true selves. I’m not sure. But, uh, yeah, everyone starts transforming into wolves while none of the wait staff seem surprised at all, , 

Craig: No.

They actually seem pleased. Yeah. And, uh, like these people are such jerks. They’ve, they’re. Is 

Todd: coming to you. Yeah, I think you’re right. And then when everyone leaves, they pop corks and toes to it. So Uhhuh and the same woman has seen rocking a baby High in a tree, which was cute. Another nursery rhyme nod, I suppose.

Well, 

Craig: yeah. And it said that she forced the wolves then to serenade her every night or something like that. Um, but yeah, it’s a woman scorned, you know, taking exacting her revenge. I actually really liked this scene. I thought the transformation was great and I loved Oh, it was, I loved seeing those dogs jump over the table in clothes.

Yeah. Um, some of them like jumping out of the clothes, some of them still in the clothes and just causing havoc. Uh oh. It’s at that fancy dinner party. It’s shot. So well. It looks really good. Yeah, it really does look good. Mm-hmm. that leads us. Then finally it gets us to the little Red Writing Hood story.

Oh yeah. But then there’s , so there’s the Little Red Riding Hood story, and then there’s a story within that one too. Yeah. . But this gets us, this gets us to the story of Little Red Riding Hood. We know what’s gonna happen. She packs up a bag of goodies for grandma. She’s going into the woods alone. Mom warns her not to stray off the path.

Uh, her little amorous boy offers to go with her and protect her, but she assures him that she can take care of herself. And she, uh, goes out of the woods and she immediately bumps into what looks like an a handsome aristocrat. Um, very well dressed, seemingly wealthy, 

Todd: seemingly from that story we just talked about.

Honestly, I think there’s a bit of a nod to that. Maybe that class of people or something. Yeah. 

Craig: He’s got a uni brow. Yep. So she should know better. And maybe she does. I think that that’s kind of what the movie is suggesting. Mm-hmm. is, I think that she kind of knows Yeah. That he’s a wolf, but again, it’s about burgeoning sexuality.

Yeah. And curiosity. And, and she is curious. And so he says, Let’s go have a picnic. And so they do. And he’s very flirtatious. And she’s very flirtatious back. Um, I mean, I think she basically outright tells him that she’s attracted to him. Yeah. Um, and says that all of the other, all of the boys in the village are so common or, or something like that.

And she’s, she’s enamored with him and they are very flirtatious. He shows her he has a compass and then he grabs her and throws her to the ground in a playful, but physically aggressive way. Mm-hmm. , if she were not into it, Uh, it might be a little much, you know, she could feel threatened, but she is into it.

Yeah. And they’re playful down there. He’s kind of on top of her a little bit. He says, Let’s have a wager. Uh, I bet I can beat you to Granny’s house. And she says, Can I have the compass if I win? And he says, Yeah. And she says, Well, what if I lose? And does he say that she has to give him a kiss? 

Todd: That’s right.

And until then he gives her her his hat as a token of his goodwill until they meet again. Uhhuh . 

Craig: So they go, they, they part ways. And he does arrive at Granny’s house first, and he knocks on the door and she says, Who is it? And he says, A friend. And she says, Okay, well come on in then. And he comes in and she immediately knows Yeah.

That he’s a werewolf. And so they have a short fight. And then Yeah, he knocks her 

Todd: head off. Well, he says to her, she says to him, What have you done with my daughter? And he says, Nothing she didn’t want, Which is right. Pretty true actually. Uhhuh . Yep. And then, yeah, they have this long fight, like you said, and he, he burns her.

It’s not really 

Craig: long, it doesn’t go on very long. She burns his 

Todd: hand with a poker. Yeah. 

Craig: She burns his hand with a poker. Uh, and you know, she does put up a fight. Yeah. But eventually he just not, you know, with. Hand knocks her head off and it shatters against the fireplace as though it had been made of ceramic.

Yeah. Uh, or, or porcelain or something. And there’s never a mention of that again. like Right. . Okay. Was she, I don’t get it, but whatever. Um, she’s gone now and Rosaline arrives and she comes in and he’s not fully wolfed out. I feel like he has the wolf eyes at this point. Yeah. Yeah. And she does the, Oh, what big eyes you have, the better to see you with.

And it’s, it’s playful. And it’s seductive. And eventually he takes off his shirt, Uhhuh , and she’s like, What big arms you have? And he’s like, The better to hug you with. And then eventually he says, What big teeth you have. And she, he says, the better to eat you with in a very, like you said, lascivious, seductive kind of way.

You know, it’s, it’s definitely, um, innuendo there. 

Todd: It’s interesting too, because I expect her to be afraid, but she doesn’t come across as afraid. She comes across as cautious. But like you said, you can, She still, even though he killed her granny , we. Right. I guess we forget about that for a moment. I mean, she knows it’s happened cuz she sees granny’s hair in the fire and uhhuh.

He says, Your kind can’t stomach hair, can you? Even if the wolf worst wolves are hairy on the inside. And, and he takes off her shawl and he 

Craig: tells her and makes her burn it. I thought that was pretty symbolic. You know, we’re leaving childhood behind. Young lady. Yeah. 

Todd: Right. And he asked her, Are you af aren’t you afraid?

And she just says, It wouldn’t do me much Good to be afraid. Now would it Uhhuh and uh, yeah, you, there’s a little bit of I play, but, um, eventually she goes to the window and she seems sympathetic toward the wolves that are howling outside. She says something like, Oh, those poor creatures, they 

Craig: almost kiss at some point.

Mm-hmm. before she goes to the window, they come very close to kissing. And in the original script they did kiss, but because this actress was only 12, they didn’t think that that would be appropriate. Thank God. Yeah. Right. . But that said, it’s still very seductive and, and sexy being that she is. Burgeoning on inappropriate.

Um, because it is very seductive and you, you see this done with vampires all the time. There’s always this seductive nature of vampires. Yeah. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen it done with werewolves. No, but it plays out very much the same way and it makes sense. There’s something sexy and erotic about danger,

Todd: E I don’t know, even as a half wolfed out guy. He’s a pretty good looking guy. I mean, Right, right. This is a sexy scene, but she still, there’s twice she tries to kill him. I mean, she whips out her knife a, a knife at one point, which he knocks out, and uh, as she turns away from the window, she’s got a gun out.

uh, and it’s trained on him, and she asks him, Are you only a man when you dress? Like one, like granny says, he kind of pushes the gun aside and mentions to her, You know, you did, we did have this bet. And she’s like, Well, perhaps you did win your bet. You are a gentleman. But they say the Prince of Darkness is a fine gentleman.

But anyway, he, he ends up transforming, uh, after, 

Craig: well, she shoots him. She shoots him. They almost kiss, they come very close, but then she shoots him in the arm and that’s when he transforms. Mm-hmm. . And this is where you get the wolf snout coming out. His mouth and his spine bursts. And so like, well his back along the spine bursts and then he’s a wolf and she apologizes to him and she goes over to him and he’s just sitting there whimpering cuz he’s wounded and she pets him and comforts him.

Yeah. , which was very, I didn’t see that coming, uh, at all. And then she tells him a story, which is really brief, that it’s about a she wolf that came out of the underworld up into their village. It said she didn’t mean anybody any harm, but somebody meant her harm and somebody shoots her. And, uh, so she takes, I don’t know, shelter in the cemetery right outside the church and the minister or priest comes out.

And she turns into a mute wild woman. But the priest takes pity on her, and then she runs naked through the forest, back to the village and like, I guess, returns to the world below through the, Well, it’s a, it’s a strange story and I wasn’t, It’s the first time we get a female. Werewolf. Yeah. And I think that there was supposed to be, you know, the, the female werewolf meant no, no one any harm, but was wounded by a man anyway.

I mean, there’s gotta be some, mm-hmm. something there, but it’s really brief and she just tells it to comfort him when she’s done with her story and we come back to them. The townspeople are approaching the cabins, is that right? Yep, that’s 

Todd: right. They’re, they’re looking for rosaline and a wolf leaps out of the window, which startles the mother.

And when she enters, she sees another wolf inside. But this wolf has rosalie’s cross around its neck and her husband bets in to shoot it, and she says, No, no, no, don’t shoot it. And just, you know, knocks the gun away just in time. Screams out the window for nobody to shoot this wolf as it too leaps out the window and runs off.

I think presumably to join the other. In the woods. Yeah. I 

Craig: think she’s gonna 

Todd: join their pack. And at this point there’s a whole pack. It’s running fast through the woods back first past the toys. And then, uh, like you said, it jumps into modern day, sort of, it comes into the big mansion, but it’s covered in leaves and cobwebs.

Like, uh, not like we saw it, you know, earlier in the framing story. 

Craig: It’s like the world’s collide. Yeah. Like the, like the fantasy of the forest is now in fessing, the house. Mm-hmm. 

Todd: and the wolves come crashing into her room where she’s sleeping into the window and she wakes up screaming and the dolls and glass crash to the floor.

I, I think what this means is basically like her childhood is gone, you know, her childhood is destroyed. Um, and she’s kind of come into this era of womanhood, I suppose, which is complicated. And, you know, the more we talk about it, the more I sort of feel like. The, the story here is that these women, well-equipped this girl for what she had to face.

Like she ended up knowing the dangers that she would have to face, and she did a pretty good job of doing it, and she has her own agency to say. I can deal with this or I cannot let it get the best of me. I, I go back to this line that we didn’t, that we didn’t talk about earlier, but I think it’s really important.

Uhhuh . When you said, Rosalyn asks her mom about her father and asks if her father ever hurts her, and she says no. She compares his grunting to the beast. You know, that her grandmother was warning her about, and her mother says to her, If there’s a beast in men, it meets its match in women too. Mm. Which is a very empowering statement.

And her grandmother has been empowering her, you know, throughout this by telling these stories and giving her knowledge. Uh, and her earlier experience with the boy kind of empowers her so that by the time she meets this danger, she’s ready for it and she kind of wants it, but she’s also able to take control and make decisions for herself and not let the wolf get the better of her.

Craig: Well, that I just think that it’s cool that in the end she embraces her carnal nature. Mm-hmm. like Exactly. She, she, Fear it. She embraces it. Uh, and maybe that’s 

Todd: what the last little story about the Wolf Girl is all about. You know? It’s, it’s, it’s trying to tell us maybe that, you know, it’s not just men.

We’re not talking about only men have this carnal nature, but women, women have it too. Girls have it 

Craig: too. It’s interesting. It’s an interesting movie. I don’t know, I was just kind of scratching my head throughout, like who. For like , It’s not for kids because it, it’s, that’s for sure. It’s, no, it’s certainly not for kids.

But it doesn’t, it’s not typical. It doesn’t fit nicely into any box 

Todd: commercial. Yeah. Right. Which is why I liked 

Craig: it so much. Well, it is the, it’s, it’s definitely unique, uh, and original, um, and, and well made and, and some good performances. Uh, really the, the star of the show is the young woman who plays, uh, Rosaly.

Her name is Sarah Patterson. And again, they were initially planning to cast somebody older, but the director was so enamored with, uh, this young woman and she does a good job and she’s 

Todd: very beautiful. She does. And, and, uh, apparently she was getting offers after this. She did one other movie and then just decided she didn’t want to act.

Hmm. Nobody really knows why She, um, Why she decided, but she just got a family and kids and was like, No, I’m, I’m done. So that, that’s Well, good for her. Yeah. She, she was in a can movie Tale Snow White, uh, in 1987, which I went and looked that up and it looked kind of interesting actually. 

Craig: I, I always like David Warner.

Oh yeah. He doesn’t have a whole lot to do in this movie, but he just has a presence about him that I really enjoy. Mm-hmm. . I was gonna say also, uh, I read somewhere that, um, the sets were very reminiscent of the Hammer films, and I hadn’t really thought about that, but they very much are. Oh yeah. They’ve got kind of that old.

Hollywood Horror Yeah. Feel to them, which is charming. Uh, and I appreciated that. But, you know, we’re here mostly to talk about Angela Lansbury, and she was really fun in this movie. Uh, she was fascinated from the time she was a little girl with cinema and television and, um, during difficult times in her life, um, like when they initially had to move to America to, you know, uh, escape the blitz that was going on in, uh, London.

That was a, a time of struggle for her family and she. Threw herself into, um, movies. She would go to the movies as often as she could, and she comforted herself by trying to create characters or imitate characters that she would see in the movies. And I think that she’s just one of those people that it was just within her, you know?

Mm-hmm. , acting, performing, were just within her nature. At the same time, she was very down to earth. She was married more than once, uh, had a family, was very focused on her family. In fact, in the seventies, um, her kids who were young adults at that time got into counterculture and started using mind altering drugs, and her daughter got involved with the Manson family.

That’s crazy. And that troubled her so much that she uprooted her entire family and her career and moved them. To Ireland, which thank 

Todd: God she did, 

Craig: she right because her children were fine. Uh, her, her son battled addiction, but, uh, got himself clean and his, and, and the daughter, you know, cut ties. Thank God, uh, with those people.

And she almost certainly saved their lives. And, and she just liked, you know, she liked housekeeping. She, she found a pleasure in, in, you know, some of just the simple things in life. And, um, she was a gay icon and, uh, she was liberal and, you know, was very vocal in her support of, of gay rights and, and the gay community, um, which is always appreciated by that community.

And, uh, she just, just seemed like a, a very cool. Talented, humble, gracious lady, and a bright star. You know, again, she just was one of those people that. Brings a smile to your face. She’s just like, Yeah. I mean, I, I, I’m, I’m, I’m getting really heavy handed with it, but honestly, like she’s just like a ray of sunshine in what can sometimes be in a dark and ugly world sometimes.

Todd: Mm-hmm. , you think of like Betty White, you know, very similar. Right. We said similar things about her. Not nobody, nobody didn’t like her. , you know, and every time you see her pop up somewhere. Felt warm, , and fuzzy. Right? She just had that about her and the characters that she played. So, and seemed to have followed that through in real life as well.

You know, it just, yeah, just amazing. And it’s great to, to have people like that that we can look up to. Agreed. And sad that they’re gone. Well, thank you so much for listening to our tribute episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us online anywhere you find podcasts. Just search for two guys in a chainsaw podcast.

Also, please consider supporting us on Patreon. We have a Patreon page at patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. You get a lot of, uh, regular goodies from us there, as well as the unedited versions of our phone calls. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We switch it up and move to classic family fare for our Halloween episode this year. And it’s timely too, as the long awaited sequel to Hocus Pocus just came out this month. Not only can you watch the movie with your kids, but you can share this podcast with them too, as we kept our whole discussion and language squeaky-clean for your listening pleasure. Happy Halloween, Loyal Listeners!

Hocus Pocus (1993)

Episode 318, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Craig: Hello and welcome to the Halloween episode of Two Guys in a Chainsaw 2022. I’m Craig.

Todd: And I’m Todd.

Craig: Todd, look, you know, when we were talking about what we wanted to do last week, we did terrify her, which ultimately I really like. I I do. Uh, it’s a little bit outta my wheelhouse.

It’s a little bit gory and, and gross. Um, but I do like it. But when we finish that, we said let’s do something a little lighter, uh, for our final Halloween episode. And, uh, we pulled our patrons on Patreon and we didn’t do a vote. We just asked what, you know, what are some suggestions? Somebody said, you know, if you wanted to go light, you could do.

Hocus 

Todd: pocus. . . That’s, It’s pretty light . I know. And, 

Craig: and honestly, it’s not like we’ve never thought about it before. For whatever reason, we just haven’t done it. You’ve brought it. I gotta tell. Yeah. I gotta tell you. I’m really, really excited to talk about this movie. I love this movie. I absolutely love it.

We felt that, based on the suggestion and the fact that, uh, the sequel finally, 30 years later, 29 years later, came out this year, it was fitting that, uh, we finally tackle this very, very much Halloween themed movie. What do you think? I 

Todd: mean, it is a hundred percent Halloween themed and it’s, you know, it’s family.

It’s very family friendly. It’s pg Yeah. And, uh, Pretty notorious, I think for people around our age and maybe even a slightly younger, We’ve even done theme months where we’ve done family friendly horror movies. They’re out there and they’re fun. So this definitely qualifies as a horror movie. Definitely qualifies as a Halloween movie.

Uh, and uh, it’s certainly within the wheelhouse of the kind of thing we talk about. So, yeah, no, I think it was a per, it was a great choice. Me too. Especially after the Tariff Fire, which is 180 degrees opposite kind of movie from this one. So , absolutely. 

Craig: But like you said, it is family friendly and I think that it definitely falls under the category of gateway horror.

Yeah. This is a movie that you can show your kids, but it, it has real horror elements to it. Mm-hmm. , uh, you know, there are these evil witches whose. Prime goal is to kill and suck the life force out of children, 

Todd: which they do within the first 10 minutes , Which they 

Craig: do. Yeah. You know, the, the, the movie doesn’t go out of its way to soften that, you know, the, these witches want to kill people.

Mm-hmm. , I’m sure I’ll talk about it more later, but I’ve seen the sequel and I’ve seen, uh, Cathy to Jimmy in particular, has been doing press, uh, for the sequel. She was reluctant to take on the movie because she was concerned about. Uh, presenting an offensive stereotype for real life witches, which of course there are, you know, , there are, there are people who identify as witches and, and people who are Wiccan and, and whatnot.

She, she took it because, uh, but Middler was her idol and she absolutely could not pass up the opportunity to work with Bet Midler. And I don’t blame her at all. I , I would feel the exact same way, , but, uh, the movie started out as a concept. Uh, Disney wanted to do a Halloween themed movie. I think one of the producers, and he’s credited as a writer cuz he helped come up with the story, David Kersner.

He, he thought, you know, there are all of these family, them. Christmas movies and they’re wildly successful and they get, you know, replayed every year and become traditions. But there are no real family Halloween movies. And so he came up with this idea. It was originally gonna be Disney’s House of Halloween, and it was intended to be much darker, uh, and scarier than the film that we ended up getting.

It sat like in production hell for like eight years until finally they got their stuff together. David Kirschner worked on it. He was probably best known at the time for writing. An American Tale, which is another great family movie. Oh 

Todd: goodness. That movie’s good. Oh, I love 

Craig: it. But he’s also done some horror stuff, I think that he produced.

He had something to do with, um, Child’s play, I think. Yeah. He 

Todd: produced, uh, at least the first three or four. Oh, no, he’s produced almost all of the child’s plays, I think. Yeah. 

Craig: Gotcha. Mm-hmm. . And then, uh, Ick Garris was another writer. He also is a horror guy. Oh gosh. I don’t remember the stuff that he’s done, but he’s done other horror stuff.

Neil Cuthbert was the other writer, and then Kenny Ortega was the director, Kenny Ortega. It’s probably best known at this point for his work on the high school musical franchise. Mm-hmm. . Um, but he had done some other stuff too. Music 

Todd: videos, I think before this model music 

Craig: videos. He’s, I think, in pre-production on a remake of Dirty Dancing.

Uh, I think that he had his hand in the live hairspray, uh, production for, for television. Um, so these guys have a lot of experience and they finally got their stuff together. Initially, the movie was supposed to be centered much more on the witches, and they actually filmed it that way. There are a lot of scenes that were cut, um, that focused more centrally on the witches.

I know that there was a scene with Kathleen and a Jimmy in a grocery store. There was a scene where, uh, it late in the. They’re in a high school. There was a scene where Sarah Sanderson and Mary Sanderson push their sister Winnie into the swimming pool. There was a lot that ended up getting cut because when they had their cut of that version, they felt like it was too scary and it needed to be more family focused.

And so they put a lot more attention on the kids. Huh. I, I would’ve been, or I still would be very interested to see what it was intended to be. But ultimately I think that it turned out great. This is one of those movies that I feel like it’s lightning in a bottle. They got the right people in it, you know?

Um, of course the Divine Bet Midler, uh, as Winnifred , uh, Sanderson, Cathy Na, Jimmy as Mary, who she is just. Straight up. Hilarious in everything that she’s in. She’s 

Todd: the Sister Act gal, right? Right. Yes. Uhhuh . That’s how I know her. She was, I think around this time too, she got really popular because, uh, she did, she was a feature player in Sister Act, and then you just start to see her in a ton of movies.

Right. 

Craig: And she’s, she’s a character actress. She’s funny, she’s hilarious. You know, she was, uh, a heavy set woman at the time. Today she looks younger than she looked 30 years ago. She’s more fit. She’s beautiful. I mean, not that she’s not beautiful, uh, in this movie. She is. And then a very young, uh, Sarah Jessica Parker was 23 years old when she made this 

Todd: movie.

Oh man, 

Craig: that is crazy to me. That is crazy. , I was an infant when I was 23. . 

Todd: You were an infant when you , you still are. And of 

Craig: course I am a little bit. Of course, she went on to find huge success in Sex in the City and is a fashion icon today and is still working. You know, there’s the Sex in the City spinoff just like that, that she is producing and, uh, starring in and she’s wildly, wildly successful, but she’s a child in this movie and the three of them are just amazing.

I read that the first choice for Winnifred was Claris Leachman. And Claris Leachman is hilarious. Like I’m sure she would’ve made an. A fantastic witch. Rosie O’Donnell was asked to play Mary, but she didn’t want to play a scary witch. And Jennifer Lopez auditioned for the role of Sarah. That would’ve been a different movie,

but we ended up with this amazing cast. And then Leonard at DiCaprio was set to play the young boy lead role of Max Dennison. Um, he turned it down to Star in what’s eating Gilbert Grape, and he got a lot of really good response for his role in that movie. So that was a good choice, probably the best choice for him.

Plus the kid in this movie who was a relative unknown, uh, Oy cats, uh, and he did some other stuff. He, I think, led the cast of a TV show called Erie, Indiana, which was like a supernatural, spooky 

Todd: kind of show. Did you ever watch that, by the way? I watched, like the first 

Craig: couple episodes, I think I didn’t get into it.

Mm-hmm. , uh, I don’t remember why. I mean, it’s been so long ago. It’s been almost 30 years ago. I don’t remember why. Now he runs a weed business.

Todd: Good for him. Good for him. Yeah. Now is the time, really. I mean, That’s right. 

Craig: I mean, I could, I could get down with that guy. Um, and then a, a, a tiny little baby, Thra Birch, uh, as Danny, his little sister, of course she has, you know, she’s an adult actress now, still working. She was actually asked to revise, or not revise, to reprise her role, um, in the sequel, but she couldn’t because of, uh, issues, and she was disappointed.

Uh, she wished that she had been able to, but she wasn’t able to. And then Allison is played by Vanessa Shaw, of course, I mean also very, very young. But she, uh, continues to act. She’s stunningly beautiful. I mean, just, Oh, and I, I can’t forget the guy who plays, uh, Billy, Billy Buton, played by Doug. I always wanna get his name wrong.

I always wanna say Doug Bradley. But that’s the. That’s Doug Jones. That’s Doug Jones. Doug Bradley’s the hell Razor guy. Doug Jones. . I’m gonna, I’m keep, I’m trying to keep my language appropriate because this is a kid moving and parents could listen to this with their kids. Maybe kids will, 

Todd: will listen 

Craig: to this too.

Yeah. All right. Doug Jones is a bleeping legend. Yeah. This guy is amazing. He has been in countless movies, and if you saw him out of makeup, you would probably never recognize him because he is always in insane makeup and prosthetics. He’s this super tall, very lanky guy who has the most amazing control of his body, of anybody that I can think of.

Mm-hmm. and, and he plays these wild character creature roles. At any time I see him announced in the cast of something, I am fascinated and drawn to whatever it is, because he is always so good. One of the things that I remember him from, which probably isn’t even one of his most memorable roles, but he was, uh, the lead gentleman in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode called Hush.

That was up for multiple. Like Emmy’s and stuff, because the premise of the show was these demons came to town and stole everybody’s voices. So up until the last few minutes of the episode, the entire thing, there’s no, there’s no dialogue because nobody can talk. Oh. And, and he was fantastic. Um, so scary in that movie.

And he’s great in this movie too. Yeah. Initially scary, but then sweet and, and endearing. Uh, I tell you what, bro, uh, you’re gonna have to butt in at some point because I could talk about this movie. All Day.

Todd: Well, I’m curious if you actually saw this in the theaters because it didn’t do well in 

the 

Craig: theaters. Did you And no it didn’t, and no I didn’t. And that’s too 

Todd: bad. I mean, it was 93, we were in high school, I guess, at this time. So, 

Craig: uh, yeah, I was a freshman in high school and they released it in the summer.

Their, their thought was, kids won’t be in school so they can go see movies, but they released it in the summertime, which I think was a bad decision. Yeah. You know, this is a Halloween movie. It needs to be released in the fall, and I think it went up against, it went up against some big movies, um, maybe The Nightmare before Christmas or Jurassic Park or something like that.

Uh, yeah, it went up against some big movies and, uh, it did not do well at. It did really poorly actually, 

Todd: and I can, I don’t know, I guess I could kind of see why and yet not, I mean, there are a lot of other movies like this that just go over like gangbusters right out the gate. I mean, it’s like a, we, it’s like a mad cab zaney.

You know, there’s just action throughout it. Yeah, there’s always stuff going on. It, it really, it just yanks you, Yanks you through the movie, basically. And I think either some people are for that and some people are like, Ugh, it’s another kid’s movie. You know? It’s one of these kind of wacky zaney kids movies type things.

And since parents make the decisions of what they’re gonna bring their kids out to see, I don’t think it really depends on whether the kids like the movie. I think it’s more like, do the parents? Mm-hmm. , are they interested enough to wanna bring their kids to it and sit through it? And that’s probably what tanked it, but then made it so popular on video afterwards is once you know, it’s, it’s a perfect movie to rent for kids and sit at a home where you, you don’t have to watch it if you don’t want to.

Sure. I’m not saying you wouldn’t want to, I’m just saying, you know, that just kind of ups the appeal. It’s funny how the context of a movie kind of changes, really, your reception of it in some ways. Anyway, No, I, and I also didn’t, uh, watch it in the theater either. I was in high school. I wouldn’t have gone to see a, an obvious like kids movie like this.

Um, and I never saw it, believe it or not, on home video at home. I think the first time I saw this movie was really just a couple years ago. Get out. I’m not kidding you. It, it, and I don’t even remember why it, it was somebody else’s suggestion or somebody else was already watching it. Uh, it, it was one of those kind of deals where yeah, just somebody else said, Oh, it’s good.

You should check it out. And, and I ended up watching it. So, um, so this is the second time I’ve seen it, but I don’t have these strong childhood memories of it like you do. Although I do have strong childhood memories of pretty much all the performers in this movie. Like Sure. Like you just ran through. So, uh, it was a, it was still a bit of a nostalgic trip in, in, in that way.

Craig: I cannot believe that you have only seen this movie twice. I’ve seen this movie twice so far this year, , 

Todd: and I might watch it again. So here you are as an adult. Still going back to this, huh? Oh my gosh. 

Craig: I’ve watched it with my sister when we were growing up every year, because eventually it did get. A, a following, it almost seems wrong to call it a cult following cause it’s not really cult.

It’s free mainstream. Yeah. It’s mainstream. It’s popular that it plays on, uh, TV every Halloween season. Um, I, I watched it with my sister growing up and, and now Alan and I watch it every year, during Halloween season. And for some reason there was one year in the past two or three years where we didn’t get around to watching it.

And we talked about it afterwards and we actually talked about it again last night. Like it felt wrong. Like we felt like we had, like, we had missed something that we hadn’t watched Hocus Pocus during October. Like we, like we legitimately regretted it. . I I think that’s another thing that makes this movie so good is it so has.

A rewatch factor. Like true, you can rewatch this movie over and over again. The jokes just hit, They’re funny, they’re silly. There’s just so much to, like, there are musical numbers. I mean, come on. And you know, like, I’ll, I’m happy to roll my eyes at musical numbers in some things, but you’ve got these three women, um, bet Midler is a diva and has been doing it for decades, and this is right in her wheelhouse.

Yeah. This is what she does. Uh, she said when she got the. The reason that she was excited about it was because it gave her the opportunity to do what she loves most and what she thinks that she’s the best at, which is physical comedy. Yeah. And that is absolutely true. She is hilarious. Yeah. And she is a character actress.

She does this in her own act. You know, when, if you’re lucky enough to be able to see Miss Bet Midler in concert, which I have not, but if you are Oh, except for On video, I’ve seen her on video. But she does this, she plays characters. Uh, it, she doesn’t just get up and sing. She does bits and they’re funny.

Oh, interesting. She has a hilarious character where she’s a, she’s a mermaid , but because she’s a mer, Above water. She wheels herself in, around, in a wheelchair, . And it’s hilarious. I mean, this is what she does. Sarah Jessica Parker has a, a history on Broadway. She starred as Annie on Broadway when she was a little tiny 

Todd: girl.

Oh, I didn’t know that. Yes. So she’s 

Craig: got all of this performance. I don’t know as much about Mary’s background, uh, the actress that played her, but uh, even just knowing what she’s done, she is hilarious in Sister Act. She’s one of the funniest parts of those movies. Mm-hmm. . So these three women coming together, it’s just.

Magic. It is, is fantastic. No pun 

Todd: intended. Yeah, it’s definitely so good. 

Craig: All right. I’m getting out of breath. . 

Todd: We can run, we can run through the plot, but, but I will say that like for me, Okay. I love kids’ movies, don’t get me wrong. Same kids. Uh, there are a lot of kids movies. I do go back and rew. I mean, I just saw Goonies again just like last week.

Yeah. This is the kind of movie that is. It’s like a little too silly for me. It, it, it is Everything you said. It is, it is hilarious. It is madcap. It is. It’s got music and all that stuff. And, uh, for me, you know, I’m not usually in the mood for this kind of movie. Again, I’ll watch it once and I’ll enjoy it, but, you know, to watch it again, I have to, I have to be completely honest with you about halfway through it, I said it to play at one and a half speed so I could get through it faster.

I hate you. I know. Am I terrible? Yes. Well, it’s just like, you know, once it kicks off, you just know where it’s going and it just keeps going that way and there’s nothing wrong with that, but you know, it, it’s just a bunch of kids being pursued by these crazy witches who do high jinks and silly things and fish outta water jokes and, and whatnot.

But they’re always in control. You know, they just cast spells on people and, and cause mayhem throughout the town while they’re pursuing these three kids who have the magic spell book that they need to ensure that they remain alive, uh, in the 21st century. And then, um, or in this case, the 20th century , it’s, it’s hard to believe actually, this is a movie that’s 20 years old because feel like 30, 30 years old.

Oh gosh. We, it is, it’s hard to believe because it doesn’t feel like it at all. It feels like it could’ve been made yesterday. Mm-hmm. . 

Craig: Yeah. And, and you’re right. Like, um, I, I texted you, I know you’re with your family, so you probably didn’t have time, but, uh, there was a 25th anniversary. Retrospective that Disney did.

And it was, it was silly, really. Uh, it was formatted kinda like an award show and generally it was silly, but there were some little nuggets of interesting information cuz there were interviews with the actresses and whatnot. But, um, at the very beginning, the hosts, uh, did a summary of the plot in three minutes.

Todd: did it even take that 

Craig: long? , I don’t even know if it took that long. And they really like, it might even be worth you looking it up. I’ll give you my Disney Plus password. Oh, you’re a sweetheart. . 

Todd: Why don’t you just announce your password here so that every No 

Craig: then I would get kicked out all the time.

That’s true. But y I mean, the plot is simple. I don’t know the best way to go about this because, It would be very easy to roll through the plot, but there are so many great 

Todd: parts. Yeah. You just kind of have, Here, let me summarize the, let me do the boring part. Okay. So it, it starts out in the early, gosh, 16 hundreds, which is really pretty fricking early considering it’s like the dawn of America’s existence.

Right. But anyway, yeah, it’s 16 hundreds. Uh, and there are these three witches who are, have captured a girl named Emily. They’ve sucked her life blood out of her and mixed up this magic potion. They have this spell book that’s bound in human skin and has a little eyeball on it that looks around, um, and seems kind of a little sentient in a way.

Totally. And that’s where they get their potions and spells out of. And, uh, their goal is to live forever by sucking the lifeblood outta kids. But the mob shows up and her brother shows up eventually they hang these witches, which is. Pretty dark for a Disney movie. Really? Yes. It’s not like they show them struggling, but the, the barrels get kicked out from under their feet and you see their feet dangling and, uh, and that, yeah, they get hung, but not before.

Bet Midler’s character who’s sort of like the lead ghost or the lead, the lead witch makes a curse on the whole town and says that they will return when a virgin comes and releases them from from the ground. Now we’re back in, We’re, we’re back to the future. Which is our present day, 1993. And, uh, it’s your typical new family comes into town.

It, it, it’s so typical. Really. It’s this boy and his little sister. Uh, the boy’s name is Max and his sister’s name is Danny. He’s like high school age and she’s like upper elementary, I would suppose. Yeah, eight or nine. And, uh, they move into town from LA and, and it’s just, it’s Salem, Massachusetts, so it’s a bit rural.

And immediately he’s getting teased at school. Um, him particularly is just getting relentlessly teased. He meets a girl, blah, blah, blah. It’s Halloween. They are out at Halloween. And this, uh, girl and him and Danny, I’ll end up together at her house. And, uh, for some reason, because it’s been brought up at school, the legend of this Sanderson.

He decides, Hey, let’s go to the Sanderson sister’s house and check it out. basically. Yeah. Cuz it’s Halloween and they go, he being a virgin, which is a joke, they keep throwing in there for the older ones, I guess lights the candle, the, the black can flame candle, which is put together with the fat of a hangman or something like that.

Yeah, right. Of course. That is all that was necessary to, uh, awake. The witches. The witches awake and they run off with the spell book before the witches can get to it. And the reason they do is because, uh, Emily’s brother, the, uh, the one who had come to save her, Emily was the girl who, who had died earlier, um, had been turned into a black cat by the witches.

And so he’s still around. He’s immortal as well. And he’s kind of the guardian over there. And he can talk what’s, Yeah, he can talk and everything is talking. Black cat, uh, has just been hanging around this house for the last 300. And so, uh, he tells ’em, Take the spell book. They’re like, What? You’re a talking cat.

Take the spell book, and they leave. And so now it just becomes a case where the witches are alive, but they know that once the sun rises, they’re gonna die again. Unless they can get that spell book, uh, and do the right potion that helps them to live forever. And then start sucking all the life blood out of all the kids in town again.

And so from here on out, and I’d say that’s probably about, mm, a third of the way through the movie that all this goes down. Yeah. Probably the, the next two thirds of the movie is just them pursuing the kids throughout the town. They’ve got the cat with them and they’re trying to hide the spell book, and they’re going to all these different locations and it’s Halloween, so there’s trick or treating and there’s Halloween parties.

The, the witches are crashing and the kids are crashing and they’re trying to get their parents attention and all that stuff. You know, it’s typical kids movie stuff until finally, uh, there’s a big showdown and, uh, Everything’s fine. The, the witches, uh, explode and are banished and it’s all good. So , 

Craig: Right.

And that is it. I mean, the story is so simple, but it just, it, it feels almost sacrilegious to reduce it to that because it’s so good. All right. So yeah, I’m gonna focus on some things. The sisters, the, the three witches, uh, you know, the opening scene is great. It establishes that these are evil witches. We know exactly what they’re gonna do, and they do it.

They kill that little girl. Yeah, She is dead. 

Todd: Her head is down. It’s not like they dwell on it. It’s not like there’s a moment of sadness. It’s actually almost darker just how callously it’s treated really 

Craig: way. Like when they give her the potion, like her life force, like emanates from her, it’s like it’s glowing in a haze around her and they just suck it.

Like they breathe it in, like they inhale it and then Right. You just see her with sitting in the chair with her head down and her hair hanging over her face. So it’s not. Like overly morbid or, or gross or anything. Um, but the girl is dead. Like it killed 

Todd: her and now she’s just in the background while they’re dancing around dead.

It’s kinda creepy. 

Craig: Yes. Uhhuh and, and, um, bet Middler said that she based her performance on the Wicked Witch of the West and Angelica Houston’s, uh, Grand High Witch in the witches. The witches. Ah-huh. Interesting. Kathy, Jimmy, I just saw her last week, uh, on the view. She said that with this character, she had two motivations.

One was to eat children, two was to be Winnie’s favorite because Winnie is obviously. The oldest and, and like their leader. Um, and so throughout the movie, Mary Kathleen and Jimmy is constantly trying to cater to her and suck up to her. Uh, at one point she says, Do you want to hit me? Would that make you feel better?

Like it’s that kind of thing, but it’s hilarious. And Sarah Jessica Parker. Oh, gosh, I have to keep it friendly. San Francisco Parker is the boy crazy one. Mm-hmm. like, and, and, and, and she’s ditzy. Um, she’s, she’s super ditzy and super boy crazy. Like anytime there are boys or men around, like she is practically melting into the floor, or crazy virgin who lit the candle, I’ll be my friend.

But she’s also hilarious. She’s so bubbly and like, she’s always bouncing, bouncing, bouncing. And her hair is long and, and she being 23, of course, you know, I remember being 23, I, I didn’t realize the beauty of being 23 at the time. man, like you, you go back. You look the best you’re ever gonna look . 

Todd: It’s so true.

Unless you’re Sean Connery or something, right? Sure, 

Craig: sure. Uh, Sarah Jessica Parker is still stunningly beautiful today, but 23 year olds. I mean, she’s just absolutely gorgeous. I hope this isn’t an appropriate for children, but sexy she is. Like, and that’s what they’re going for. Yeah. Even in the costuming, uh, they said like, um, their costumes reflected their characters.

She is, uh, styled. To look like a sleeping beauty. Mm-hmm. Mary is styled to look like a baker or a baker’s wife because she’s more homey. She also, Cathy and a Jimmy said that part of her inspiration was that her character was part blood hound. Um, she’s the one that sniffs out the kids and she even barks.

That’s right. She barks throughout the movie. Yeah. . And, uh, when they were designing, uh, bet’s, look, the costumer wanted it to her inspira. The costume’s inspiration was Bet Midler. She’s gotta be fun. Like, initially the plan had been to have her be very dark, like in, in black and, and very serious. And, uh, the customer said, I don’t.

That’s right. I think she needs to be sparkly and fun and, uh, so director, producer, I don’t know, went to BET and said, What do you think? And bet Midler was like, I’m not wearing some black dress. . So their, their characters are based, you know, uh, there’s just thought behind it. And, and they’re, they’re not stereotypical necessarily.

I mean, they’re stereotypical in that they are evil witches who want to eat kids. That’s stereotypical. But their individual characters are, are interesting and, and unique. and in the beginning, you know, I love this stuff too. In the beginning, uh, when we first meet them, when they, they are kind of like old Crohn’s.

They’re in heavy old lady makeup. And then after they suck out the, uh, life of that little girl, um, they’re younger. I think Mary says, We are young. And then bet Midler turns around and looks in the mirror and says, Well, younger . 

Todd: Right? 

Craig: But that’s also something that’s crazy. Uh, so Sarah Jessica Parker was in her thirties, or no, excuse me, twenties.

I, I don’t remember where Kathy and Jimmy was. Um, but, uh, BET Midler was already in her forties or fifties because now that the sequel has come out, bet Midler is in her mid seventies. And I, I don’t care if this is off topic, I have seen the sequel and yes, you can tell that they’re older, but these three women.

Have some, I mean, I think they must be witches in real life because they’ve got some magic potion, huh? Yeah. There’s no way that they should look way. I mean, it’s crazy. They don’t look much different than they did 30 years ago. It’s wild. 

Todd: It’s nuts. Wow. Uh, I think there is something special though. I mean, I don’t know if we’re all taking care of each o of, of ourselves better or if healthcare is better, we just stay outta the sun more.

But like, you know what was a 70 year old person, even when I was growing up in the eighties, looks nothing like a 70 year old person now. Like, you know, my parents still look super young. My dad, some people still think my dad is my brother. It’s really weird. So, yeah, that, that’s an interesting thing.

Somebody needs to look into that. 

Craig: It is weird. It, it does seem weird and I don’t know if it has to do with style or what, but like the Golden Girls, which remains one of my favorite shows, those women. When, when they were cast in that show are the age that like J-Lo and Shakira are now . , I’m not kidding.

Good way of playing it. Dead 

Todd: serious. It’s hilarious, right? This spinster, ladies in their fifties, you know, like trying to get on with the last few years of their life. And , come on. 

Craig: And like I, I’m a big fan of Madonna, but I’m not gonna say that she’s aged as gracefully as some ladies, but she’s my mom’s age.

Like, I wish that for our viewers I could put like a picture of my mom who is beautiful and a picture of Madonna and say that they’re the same age because one, one of those two, I’ll leave it to you to guess. One of those two doesn’t realize she’s in her mid sixties, but whatever, you can do whatever you want, you know, Rock those, you know.

Lingere outfits, whatever. Well into your seventies. Be my guess. Live your best life anyway. Gosh, what else? The, the book is so Remini reminiscent of the Necron. Yeah. There are just so many, like you said before, about getting people into theaters. I think you’re right. It has to kind of appeal to the adults who are gonna have to go sit through it too.

Or it should, I guess, in some way. Mm-hmm. . But this one does like this. There’s stuff in here, this, this movie wouldn’t be made today. Not for this audience. Yeah. I don’t think, I think you’re right. And I say that, and before I had seen Hocus Posi, I had read that they had made it less dark. And because it’s a, you know, a modern young audience, they have to treat differently.

The second movie is very much in keeping with the first movie. And if you like, If you like the first movie or like me, love the first movie, you’re gonna love the sequel two. I will be honest, the first 20, 30 minutes I was like, Oh, I don’t know, this is really silly. Somehow I had blocked out in my mind.

That part one is really silly 

Todd: too. Yeah, it’s really silly. 

Craig: Once it, it is silly and once it got going and once the three witches showed up tonally it is so in keeping with the original movie and there. So many throwbacks to the original. Uh, I just, I ultimately, I absolutely loved it. We’ve already watched it twice this season too.

Wow. And Watching’s. And watching Hocus Pocus one yesterday for this podcast just made me wanna watch it again. , 

Todd: in some ways we are different people, but , 

Craig: oh gosh. I love it so much. I just think it’s so funny, but also so sweet. It is. And the second one really does a good job of keeping with themes. Some of the things that come up in, in part one, that our throwaway lines end up being.

Essential in part two, and it just works super well. And of course, all the women look great and they said, they have said, the actresses have said that they, it just felt so comfortable even 30 years later, 29 years later, just stepping back in to those characters. Huh. And, and I can’t imagine, you know, you and I act on occasion, uh, you more so professionally than me these days, but, uh, that’s something that I have never, and I’m sure will never experience, you know, to, to not only take on a role, but to create 

Todd: a role.

Yeah. It’s something original that’s never been done before. 

Craig: Right. Originate, Yeah. Originate a role and then be able to step back into it 30 years later. Like, that’s wild. What an amazing experience. And, and it really seems like they. We’re grateful. The sequel was in talks for years, for years and years and years.

And for whatever reason, it just didn’t happen. And at one point, Disney was gonna move forward with it as it made for TV movie without the original actresses. And I just thought that was such a terrible, terrible idea. Like, if that’s what you’re gonna do, just leave it alone. Just, just don’t. But that, that died.

And uh, then, you know, this sequel came to fruition and I, I’m sure a lot of it for me is nostalgia, but I think that kids still like hocus pocus. It’s one of those movies like, uh, Christmas vacation or l for even probably more like a Christmas story, you know, these older movie. That are, they stand the test of time.

Mm-hmm. , the jokes still work. Um, there’s not much in this, aside from the fact that there’s no reference to cell phones, uh, that that dates it. Mm-hmm. , It’s true. It feels like it could be 

Todd: today. You’d never noticed that this was, uh, again, 30 years old. Uh, you’re right. There’s nothing in here that dates it.

There’s, in fact, you know, it doesn’t have a cell phone problem really. There’s very little, I think in this movie that could have ever been solved by, there’s probably nothing in this movie that could have been solved by cell phones. So there’s no, not even one of those issues, uh, with it. Where anybody watching it today would be like, why don’t they just call their parents?

Or something 

Craig: like that. Right, right. Well, they even answer that question. Well, uh, yeah. Max and Danny’s parents are played by, So the, the dad is Dave. He’s played by Charles Rocket, who is infamous for having dropped an F bomb on Saturday Night Live when he was a cast member. And I think he got fired for it, if I remember correctly.

But if you were watching television in the eighties, you will recognize this man. I know him from a movie that probably nobody else has seen, but there was a movie in the eighties called How I Got Into College. Uh, and I thought that movie was hilarious. I still use clips of it in my. And then the mom, Jenny, is Stephanie Pharisee or Fary, and she has been in a lot too.

And I think that she continues to work, but I remember her as John Candy’s wife from The Great Outdoors, which oh, is one of my favorite movies. one of the funniest movies I’ve ever seen. And she’s, she’s great in it. And she’s not in this movie much, but when she is, she’s cute and funny. Just everything about it.

I love

Todd: He was in Dances with Wolves. Earth Girls are Easy. Uh, yeah, he’s, he’s, he’s been on a lot, a lot of movies and also TV series, like voices Like in in cartoons and things. Yeah. As well as video games. . Yeah. This guy’s been around. Yeah. Yeah. They’re cute. You know, like the parents are cute and they’re, they’re nice.

There’s, they’re just fun, nice little parents. Uh, and they’re just going off to a Halloween party. I think that’s what you were getting to. Yeah. Yeah. And so, uh, they’re busy at the Halloween party dancing up a storm, which is a pretty freaking awesome Halloween party. It’s, it’s the town hall. A party, which I mean, they’re getting, you know what, these, these LA parents, they know how to schmooze.

Right? When they, when they arrive, you know, they’re, they, they’re still unmatching their boxes and already they’re hobnobbing with people at the town hall Christmas part out. Love it. 

Craig: It’s hilarious. And I, I don’t who cares about, you know, jumping around, spoilers, whatever, but at, you know, they get a spell put on them that they have to dance all night.

You know, everybody at the party does, um, or dance until they die or whatever. But at the very, very end, when the credits start rolling, you see them coming out . They’re still like, especially the mom is like, I put on,

I thought LA was a party town. 

Todd: Yeah. . 

Craig: It’s so funny, these people from la, they come and this is their first experience in Salem, and they’re like, Oh yes, Salem’s rocks like

So adorable. So adorable. Yeah, that he dresses up as a vampire and she dresses up as Madonna Uhhuh, which the cone bra and the high ponytail from the nineties. Uh, see, these are the things that date it. But even that, like, I feel like even that is iconic. I don’t know if my high school kids would get it.

They might. I don’t know. That’s, that’s some pretty iconic stuff, but, Huh. Even I, I think that they would at least know who Madonna is and wouldn’t be surprised to see her in that kind of costume. So, yeah. Still the, the relationship between Max and Danny is adorable. Big brother, little sister. I can never remember.

Are your sister’s younger or older? Younger. I thought so. So, you know, like, 

Todd: Yeah, , I totally get this. I think there’s a slightly different dynamic when you’re just two kids, so you just have one little sister. Yeah. Whereas my two sisters, um, my, my sister, my oldest sister is like three years younger than me.

And the others, they’re just stairsteps. So, uh, you know, they, they just play together and they kind of have their own thing. And I was kind of my own thing, but I can see where if you were a brother and a sister relationship, you would have exactly the kind of relationship that is, uh, that is portrayed in here with the older brother, kind of taking care of the younger sister.

And what I really like about this is the sister’s personality. It could have not worked because. Sometimes it runs the risk of sounding too written and unreal, but somehow, um, it’s played well enough by, um, by tho Birch that she sells it. Uh, this younger girl who’s kind of got the, a bit of a fearlessness to her really, that her older brother doesn’t have.

Maybe also because she’s younger, you know, and he’s got more complicated relationships to navigate in high school. And he’s a little more, um, self-conscious and she’s not maybe, but, uh, I love some of her lines, uh, in this like, like, uh, she’s the one who’s kind of pushing him to get out. He, he wants to just sit home during Halloween at the beginning cuz he doesn’t want to go out and encounter those bullies again.

Craig: No way. This is my first time I’ll get lost besides a full moon outside. The weirdos are out.

Come on. Couldn’t you forget about being a cool teenager just for one night? Please, come on. We used to have so much fun together. Trick or treating. Remember? It’ll be like old times. Yeah, well, the old days are dead. It doesn’t matter what you say. You’re taking me. Eventually she just stands in the middle of the room and screams at the top of her lungs.

Mom, , this is real life. It’s true when you are a brother and a sister, and I swear to God, my s if I hit my sister. And she told on me all hell would break loose. Yeah. Like I was in so much trouble. Meanwhile, my sister is throwing scissors at me. I’m like dodging them and they’re sticking in the wall. I’m not kidding.

This is a true story, but God forbid I like defend myself. 

Todd: Right, Right. , 

Craig: that’s, And I, and I love, I love that relationship, but it be, it does, it reminds me of my little sister, but there’s one part of this movie that I think is, I, I feel like they should have cut. It’s a part where Max comes home and he’s upset cuz he is just gotten pestered by these bullies and they stole his shoes, whatever.

He goes up to his room. They live in a really awesome house by the way. Um, but he goes, he goes up to his room. His little sister is hiding in the closet that has like sled doors and he doesn’t know that of course. And then he lays down in his bed and starts thinking about the girl that he has a crush on.

This scene could have gotten really awkward, really fast 

Todd: even. It even felt slightly awkward as well, I’ll have to say. Yeah. 

Craig: Oh boy. I was just thinking to myself at like 14, 15 and like I 

Todd: see where this is going, Sister. I’m might had an Niel there. . I’m 

Craig: glad. Yeah, I’m glad she popped out when she did

But anyway, I love their relat. 

Todd: Their relationship’s cute. And then what they do go out trigger treating. And as soon as they step out the door, it’s like these bullies are waiting for them by the, by the curb and asking for their candy. And eventually, uh, he just hands them a big bag of candy and walks by.

He, he mouths off to them a little bit, but ultimately he just ca caves and gives them candy and walks on . And then her sis his sister is super disappointed and she says she punched him. 

Craig: They would’ve killed him. These tove died like a man , 

Todd: which coming out of an eight year old’s mouth to her little brother on the steps of a somebody’s house trigger treating is just hilarious.

I thought it was funny. They do end up at the house of, uh, the girl that he was dreaming about, which looked like the home alone house from the outside. I wonder if it is, I 

Craig: don’t know. A lot of this was shot on. Back lots. Um, yeah, the, the, the fountain from Friends makes an appearance. Oh gosh. There are other, there are lots of other famous houses in this movie.

I, I, you won’t recognize them. I didn’t recognize them. I read about it, but there are lots of famous 

Todd: locations. I think the Home Alone house is an. Actual house in Chicago or something. Yeah, it is. So maybe that. Yeah, maybe it wasn’t. But it looks a lot like it. And they go in and, um, when they notice it’s the girl, he, he says, Oh, Allison.

And she goes, Oh, Allison, this is the girl you were, you were dreamed about her talking about everyone’s dressed up in these like period costumes. Like they’re, they’ve come off the set of adaas 

Craig: or whatever, right? They’re all very fancy. Like, she like, she like, that’s how they e established that her family is rich.

Like they have a very fancy formal Halloween party’s. Really? I love the little girl. The little girl says something like, Ah, rich people. They’ll probably make us drink cider and bob for apples, . And then as soon as they get in there, Allison’s like once some cider . Hilarious. It’s hilarious. But yeah, the costume thing.

So funny. By the way, Danny, I love your costume. Thank you. I really like yours. Of course I couldn’t wear anything like that because I don’t have any, what do you call ’em, Max Yabos . Max likes her yabos. In fact, he loves ’em. . Oh my God. That is such a little sister thing to do. I don’t think my little sister would’ve gone that far, but maybe if she was mad enough at me.

Uh, it’s adorable, but it’s also adorable. Like they bicker and fight sometimes, but then they always make up and like it’s super cute that they’ve got each other’s backs. It is nostalgic for me. That’s the kind of relationship I had with my sister when I was younger. We were a little bit closer in age. Um, but uh, it’s just, it’s very sweet.

It reads as very real to me. Then they bring back the witches. They all do such a good job with their vocal. Acting, you know, they all have these affected voices. Mm-hmm. . Um, but, but they work and they’re very character driven and, and they are cartoonish, but still menacing and, and scary. Yeah. I know they hair.

I know they hair, but, Sniff them up, Betty. No. No. Oh, I can’t. No. Go too far. I’ve lost them. I’ll have your gut for God. You must help with when Billy the butcher gets here with my book. Look, you should be ready for the ready. Sarah. Sarah, with her star collecting children. Why? Because you’re great. Ba poon. We want to live forever, Not just until tomorrow.

The more children’s lives we stretch, the longer we shall live. Right? Let us fly sisters. I have an idea. Since this promises to be your most dire and stressful evening, I suggest reform a calming circle. I am calm. Oh sister, though I’m not being honest with myself, are we? Huh? Huh? When I talk to you about this initially and said, You know, I read that the sequel toned it down so it’s not as dark.

Your response was, I don’t remember this being dark at all. Yeah. I think that it is, and I think that there are parts that could, for children, not for adults, but for children, could be legitimately scary. Just like. Many children are very frightened of the Wicked Witch from The Wizard of Oz. You know, I don’t look at that.

I’m not scared, but I could understand how children would be just like my sister was terrified of the Goor in the never ending story, terrified. I think that this movie does have real horror elements for us as adults, and a horror of fan. It seems very light, but for children, I could see how this could be genuinely frightening, but I think that they do a good job of balancing the frightening elements with the really funny and lighthearted elements.

It so that it’s not 

Todd: overwhelming. It doesn’t stay frightening for long in any one way cuz it’s just moving at such a fast pace anyway. And then, like you said, it, it just jarringly, you know, jumps, uh, between something that might be really frightening, but then something’s really silly is gonna happen later.

Right? I really debated, I thought this might be a good opportunity. This might be something I can sit down and watch with my son who’s now I wondered. Five and a half, he’s almost six and he’s in some ways very advanced for his age in terms of his thinking and stuff. But it, I, it still surprises me and I think this is probably true of all kids, especially really young kids, it still surprised me.

You really never know what’s gonna affect them. You really never know what particular thing they’re gonna think is scary. Whereas you can show them something that you think would be scary to them and or not, whatever. And then some random shadow on a wall or something like that sudden is just utterly terrifying.

And there’s nothing so far that has really utterly terrified him, but, I did show The Wizard of Oz to him about a year ago, and I thought that would be a good gateway. , that would be a good gateway. Horror for him. Right. show him the Wizard of Oz. And, uh, he was scared about the witch, pretty relentlessly through it, but, uh, not enough that he ran screaming from the room and every time he kind of wanted to turn it off, I very gently was like, Well, we could turn it off, but I kind of wanna watch a little bit more with you more so as a dad, I wanted him to see it through to the end.

Right. I wanted to see what happens to the witch, you know, so that there’s a resolution. So he doesn’t go to bed. Super scared about it. And I could just tell him, Don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t forget, you know, the witch dies, that the witch is gone, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. At the end. Uh, and he has brought up the Wizard of Oz a lot.

In fact, he’s dressed up as a witch for Halloween last year, and he’s going to be a witch again this year for Halloween. He insisted on That’s awesome. We were gathering materials for his costume yesterday. So, um, I thought about watching this movie with him and I, but I remembered what you said to me, that it’s, it’s got some dark moments and so I didn’t, and.

Now that I watch it, I’m not sure. I’m really not sure how he would’ve taken it. I think there’s some things like the hanging that would’ve kind of gone over his head. Sure. Or would have maybe he would ask some questions about. And then there’s some other things like maybe the zombie that pops up later.

Or Sure. Just some little things that do happen. Like when, uh, bet Midler’s character is using electricity to really shock the boy and he’s on the floor and all that. I think that would bother him. But I do, I do kind of wonder if that would, like I said, be tempered by the fact that the witches are so wacky.

Right. It’s hard to say at this age. So I guess if you got a kid around five or, or six or younger, it’s kind of up in the air. I think it really depends on the personality of your child. Yeah. It’s a judgment call. Probably anyone over that age seven or older is probably just 

Craig: fine. Yeah. It’s interesting, I read that, um, not in America.

I don’t think it’s ever been censored in America, but in some other countries, when they would air it on, uh, television, they would cut stuff out. They would cut, they would still have the hanging scene, but they would cut the part where you see their feet dangling. Mm. They cut, They cut everything. That had to do with, uh, Billy Buton getting his head knocked off

Right? And, and some of these cuts led to confusion because it, it eliminated vital parts of the plot. Like it didn’t make sense right at, at the end, At the end, when Thra Birch is in a grave surrounded by salt, perfectly safe, the only reason that she’s motivated to get out of it is because Billy gets his head chopped off and she’s trying to help him get it back.

And that’s what makes her vulnerable. You cut that part of him losing his head and cut her crawling out of the. Grave to get it. You have no idea why she’s out. Like she was in a safe place. Why is she out? Yeah, I’ve read that these days. They air it in its entirety with no cuts, but for a long time with, with some pretty serious cuts, which seems weird.

It’s peachy. Yeah, it is. There’s. There’s no gore, none. Zero gore. No gore. The zombie looks fantastic. Like just a great character 

Todd: design. A little comical. It’s not like his skin’s falling off. He’s like green and you know, he, he does look a little scary cuz his mouth is so sharp. Sharp. He is a green zombie, but he’s not like, you know, it’s not gross and.

And, and I just wanna be very clear here, like I do not believe that you need to protect, that you should protect children from scary things. I think. Oh, I understand. I think you do need to tell kids scary stories. I think they do need to see scary stuff. Anyone who’s trying to shield them, their child from, from scary things is just, I, in my personal opinion, it’s just gonna create more problems down the road a hundred percent earlier.

You can slowly start to introduce them to things that they can handle and, and, and be there with them and talk them through it. I think it really helps their emotional development because the world can be a scary place and so fiction is a good way to explore and deal and learn to. To confront those emotions and deal with them before they have to actually deal with it in real life.

I mean, sadly, some kids have to deal with very scary situations, very early in life, and if, if you’ve worked them through their emotions, through fiction, then they’re better equipped to deal with it. So I’m absolutely not saying that you should not show your kids anything scary. I’m just, you know, there’s just an age appropriateness and there’s also just, as a parent, like, what do you really feel like dealing with today, , You know, Sure, I will.

I had no problem showing him Wizard of Oz, knowing that he might have nightmares for the next week that I would have to deal with. I was fine. Sure. But you know, if it had been a rough week at the job and whatnot, I, I would’ve just skipped on it. Yep. 

Craig: Yep. Makes sense. It’s sometimes difficult for me because I ate this stuff up when I was a kid.

Me too. And I, I want to share it. Younger people like my niece and nephew, they’re just not into it. Like, they’re just not and, and my, my niece has really gotten into Halloween. She loves the, uh, spirit of Halloween and she loves the spooky stuff, but she’s not interested in watching a scary movie, . That’s just 

Todd: a step too far.

Now that you mention it, I mean that I, This is what I love about Halloween, right? Is that it? We’ve talked about it before. It’s got a little something for everybody. It can be cute, it can be scary, but you’re exposed to all. Right. No matter what, like you’re gonna see some scary as well as some cute, if you’re out and about and you’re putting a costume together and you’re going to Halloween parties, you’re having Halloween at school, you’re watching Halloween movies, no matter what age you are.

And that’s what’s awesome actually about Halloween is that I feel like it itself is a good gateway, of, for my son into the, the scary, the hor Yeah. Kind of the scarier side of life and horror and, and to some extent death, you know, skeleton skulls. Sure. You know, you’re, you’re talking about this stuff.

Scary things. He, he made like a really spooky eyes that he calls spooky eyes, which, which would be the kind of thing if he saw them, I think he would be scary, scared about, but it’s a little decoration he made and it is creepy, but he wanted to put it up on the wall. Uh, he’s gotten over that in a way, you know, So, uh, it’s in that case, you know, this movie again, is like that too.

The monsters that are pursuing the kids are not the only monsters you’re gonna see in this movie. The parents are dressed like monsters. There’s all parties full of monsters. The kids are dressing like monsters. And so, you know, gosh. It’s so Halloween. Yeah. 

Craig: We’re, we’re already running over time, but I, there’s, I know so many things that I sort of say.

Let’s keep going. It’s fine. The, the party, uh, I, you know, of course the witches chase the people, the kids around, uh, it’s established that they can go to the cemetery and be relatively safe there because it’s sacred ground in the kids. Um, can’t go there. I love, or excuse me, the witches can’t like, walk on sacred ground.

I love everything about it. I love the set design, like the cemetery doesn’t look. But it looks like a perfect Halloween cemetery. Yeah. Like with these decrepit trees and these old, old tombstones. And it’s 

Todd: stylized, almost like a cartoon, just like their house is. Yes. Yeah. It’s really 

Craig: charming. It’s, the whole movie is, is cartoonish.

Mm-hmm. . Uh, and I like that about it. Well, the zombie comes and he’s great . He’s chasing them around. I love that. Like he’s ordered by Winnie to the kids have the book. So he’s supposed to get the book while the witches go and look for children or whatever. Um, but ultimately it turns out that he hates.

Winnie Sanderson, and he’s not a bad zombie. He’s a good zombie . And it’s so cute because the second that it’s revealed that he’s a good zombie, Tora Birch runs up to him and says, Hi, Billy. Like they’re best friends. , like they’re immediately best friends and it’s adorable. Yeah. And he, he protects her and he helps the kids in the end to fight the witches.

It’s so 

Todd: cute. It’s cute. I don’t know if you know anything about this, the backstory, but I’m really impressed because the witches can’t stand on solid on that sacred ground, but they can float above it on their rooms. Yeah. And so a lot of the scenes, in fact, many of the scenes in this movie involve the.

Which is sort of hovering there on their brooms. Yes. The effects are great. I mean, oh my gosh, this is 1993. There was cg, there’s a little bit of CG in this movie, but not enough a cat Yeah. To do that. And, um, and it’s just, it looks so good and they’re just so acrobatic on those brooms and I can’t even imagine the rig that was set up, I know, to make that happen.

And, and they’re just so natural on it. Uh, it’s so good for its 

Craig: time, especially some, some of those shots were done with stunt people, but the actresses did a lot of it themselves and it was harnesses that they were in. Um, and it looks so good, like, again, just practical effects. Even in the new movie, there’s clearly more movie magic going on behind it, and I kind of missed some of the.

Flying harness effects cuz they just look great. It looks real. Hmm. There’s only one place. I didn’t notice it. I read in the trivia that there is a place that you can see the wires on Mary’s broom in one place. But other than that, I didn’t see anything that made it look anything less than, than magic . I was looking and, uh, I read that it must have been good special effects because Sarah Jessica Parker was so comfortable in her harness that she wouldn’t even ask to be taken down when they would take breaks.

She just kept a copy of the New York Times under her dress and would, and would pull it out and read it. Oh my gosh. Just egging there in the harness. That’s hilarious. Oh gosh. It, it just reading things like this. I love to read these behind the scene things because reading things like that makes me, uh, so jealous.

I wanna make a movie with. Effects and be flown around. Mm-hmm. . So cool. All right, well, so there’s that, there are two big parts that I wanted to talk about that we haven’t yet. The first one is, um, when they’re looking for children and they end up this, a, a man comes out dressed as sat. And shouts to the tricky treaters who are all around them.

what kind of costumes are these? It’s the sand, the and sisters, right? That haven’t seen you for centuries. But what the heck? Why don’t you come in, Come into the non-smoking section, . Come on. Come on. Don’t step on my tail. And it’s Gary Marshall. And his, his wife played by his sister, Penny Marshall. And this scene, it could stand alone.

Yeah. Like this could just be like a short, like It is, it’s so, so funny. , I, you have to know, I mean, young people, if you’re listening to this and you have no idea who Gary and Penny Marshall are, they’re both actors and both directors. They , they’re characters, just the in and of themselves. They don’t have to act, They, they look kind of funny.

They talk kind of funny, but they are just absolutely hysterical. My three favorite witches Are you brides a little old to be trick or treating? We’ll be younger in the morning. . Yeah, sure. Me too. And this whole scene, the whole scene is just a series of gags, , like when he walks into the kitchen and thinks it’s a torture chamber, um, Mary is watching TV and sees that real life commercial from the nineties with the baby, like running around in a, like a walker type thing.

And, and she is, uh, just, it, it’s hilarious, her reaction to it. And Sarah is hitting on . Gary Marshall is the devil. And then Penny Marshall like comes to kick them out and, Oh my God. I don’t, she , she says to, uh, Sarah Jessica Parker. Okay. Tart face, take your Clark barn, get outta here. . And then they try to stand up to the wife and she’s not at all scared of them.

And she’s six her little tiny dog on them. And they’re terrified by it because it’s wearing like costume wings and horns. Like it’s a little demonn dog. Mm-hmm. and . And that was, uh, Kathleen and Jimmy’s actual dog in that scene. 

Todd: Oh, . That’s 

Craig: funny. But that scene was hilarious. And then the icing on the cake is the Halloween party at at town hall.

Todd: I said, This is all right up Craig’s Alley when I was watching. Oh my God, it’s 

Craig: wonderful. First of all, they go in there and these townspeople are dressed to the nines, like amazing costumes. This movie had a pretty low budget. It was not. Expected to be a blockbuster. So they didn’t throw a ton of money at it.

And so the costume department didn’t have a lot of money, but it was Disney, so they had access to the costume closet from Disney movies past. Yeah. And so they just went in there and raided those closets. And so these costumes are amazing. They’re, they’re gorgeous. Everybody looks great. There’s a band with dressed up like skeletons with skeleton makeup on who look fantastic.

I have no idea who. The singer was, but he’s great. Yeah. Fantastic. Uh, I think he’s singing its witchcraft when they first come in and they’re trying to convince everybody that the Sanderson sisters are real and they’re coming and their parents don’t believe them. And the Sanderson sisters arrive and the song changes to, I put a spell on you and there’s a close up on Bet Midler’s face where you can see she’s listening to it and she’s hearing the words.

And then Max jumps up on the stage and like, wrenches the microphone out of the singer’s hand. Your kids are in danger. Three or years ago, the Sanderson sisters be witch people. Now they’ve returned from their grave . Hey man, I’m serious. It’s not a joke. This has gone far enough. I know this sound’s dumb, but they’re here tonight.

They’re right over there.

Wow. Thank you Max for that marvelous introduction. And they start singing. I put a spell on you, but it becomes a real spell and they put their own chance into it and the lyrics are tailored to them. Bet Midler takes credit for writing one of the lyrics. Uh, there’s a line cuz of all the witches working.

I’m the worst. Which is a great line and she takes credit for, for that. A again, uh, bet. Midler is a legend and, uh, this, this, this performance is iconic. It’s, it’s iconic period. Drag queens love this stuff like Halloween. I can’t tell you how many social media posts and, and, and mainstream media things. I see this is drag material a hundred percent.

And, uh, their performance is great. Every time we watch it. It’s so funny. Every time we watch it, Alan is so excited at this part. And then , I’m lowering my, I’m lowering my voice cause I think he can hear me. Um, and then as soon as it’s over, he always says we have to watch that again. And then he rewinds it and we watch it again.

It’s so good. It is so, so good. It is. And so then they end up, uh, in the cemetery. Danny gets in trouble because she crawled out of her safety hole. Um, so the witch Winnie gets her, There was a whole other part that we skipped about how they brewed the whole potion, but then Max foiled their plans and spilled it and they only had enough left for one kid.

And Sarah and Mary are both like, we’ve got a whole bunch of kids here because Sarah had sang her beautiful temp to the children song, which I also love. And so all the kids from Salem had gone to their house, so they had all these kids at their disposal. But Mary is super mad because Danny called her ugly.

So she once not only to regain her youth and live forever, but she wants her revenge. So stupid decision, they go after the kids on the run instead of taking one of the hundreds of kids just standing in a trance around Right. . But, um, anyway, so they end up in the cemetery and there’s lots of fun like.

Confrontation with the witches. They’re like charging them on their brooms and Allison’s throwing salt in Sarah Jessica Parker’s face, which makes her like do acrobatic flips through the air and all kinds of stuff. Eventually Winnie gets Danny, she’s got the potion, she’s about to make her drink it, but bakes the cat, jumps on her, Mary drops the potion, Max catches it, and he drinks it so that, uh, Winnie will have to take him and not Danny.

And she comes down and lets Danny off the broom, which I thought was polite of her instead of just like, you know, throwing her off and letting her die or whatever. Mm-hmm. . But, uh, she comes down and she says, What a fool to sacrifice your own life for your sisters. And it is a throwaway line in this movie.

30 years later, it is a. deal in the second movie. Interesting. Hmm. So anyway, she, she starts sucking max life for us. But the sun comes up and the, uh, the two sisters blow up die, but in a cute way. Like they say, they’re like, Oops, bye-bye, . Yeah. Oh no. And then they blow up in glitter in their colors. And, uh, Winnie gets knocked to the ground with Max and she stands up and she’s still holding him up by his collar.

She’s trying to suck his life force. But, uh, she failed to remember that she’s now on hallowed ground. So from the feed up, she starts to turn to stone and she turns into a big stone statue of herself, and then the statue blows up. Everybody celebrates in front of the friends fountain. Um, Uh, Billy. Billy just goes back to sleep.

He just goes back to his grave and goes back to sleep. Goodnight Billy. Mm-hmm. . Then Bens is dead and Danny’s really sad, but it’s okay because his spirit has been freed of the curse. And in ASL form he’s reunited with his sister and they walk off through like a heavenly gate. Mm-hmm. . And that’s the end.

And then there’s like some caps with the parents getting out of the dance. Finally, we already talked about that and the, the bullies still being caged in the sister’s house and. Book opening its eye one last time, and then that’s the end. Oh, dude. , I apologize for totally stealing the spotlight on 

Todd: this one.

This is obviously a favorite of yours. There’s been times when I’ve said, Oh, uh, once we’ve done this movie, the podcast can end because Craig is satisfied. I feel like maybe we’ve hit another one of those moments. What else is out there that you’re just dying to do? ? 

Craig: I don’t know. I, I didn’t realize because again, like we’ve tossed it around like, eh, maybe, maybe is it really what we do?

I don’t know. But this year be because somebody outside of us, somebody outside of us suggested it and it’s Halloween and, you know, we’ve done lots of Halloween movies. But yeah, it is, it’s, it’s a favorite. I gleefully watch. Every year at least once. It, it’s something that I can enjoy with everybody. You know, My, my, my sister loves it.

Her kids love it, even though they’re not into really spooky stuff. Alan loves it. My kids at school are aware of it, you know, it’s mm-hmm. one of the few pop culture references that I can make, that they even get Well, 

Todd: they’re gonna be more aware of it now too. With the sequel coming out, I’m sure it’s bringing renewed interest onto the original and Yeah.

And like we said, it stands a test of time, so I don’t think any kid’s gonna look at the original and say, Oh, this is like an old movie. They’re not gonna feel that way. Right, 

Craig: right. And, and honestly, folks out there, if, if you liked the first one, you’re going to like the second one, give it a chance. It starts out a little goofy, but it’s great.

I was nervous, you know, because you love a movie like this and there’s the part of you that wants a sequel, but then you also know that sequels. Often don’t live up to Yeah, the original. And so sometimes you’re left disappointed in almost wishing that they hadn’t messed with what you loved. Um, and I don’t feel that way about this one at all.

I think that it is an excellent companion piece to the original. I, I, I’m confident that it will, Become part of our yearly ritual as well. We’re gonna watch both of ’em every year. back to back until we’re dead.

Todd: hilarious. 

Craig: Oh, man. All right. Well, Thank you audience for indulging me in my . Excessive, excessive focus, focus, obsession. Yeah. If you enjoyed this episode and are new to the podcast, we have literally hundreds of back episodes that you can find on virtually any platform that you can find podcasts on. We do also have a Patreon page if you’d like to be able to access some exclusive content, some minisodes personal interview about how we got started doing this, that type of stuff that is available to you.

And if you like me, would like to gush about Hocus Pocus, please feel free to drop a comment in any one of our social media pages or you can PM us if it’s private. Until next time, I’m Craig. And I’m Todd with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

For our third Halloween-themed episode this year, we go dark. Extremely dark.

This crowd-funded unrated indie film became enough of a sleeper hit on streaming services to warrant an unrated sequel with a groundbreaking release in theaters nationwide. We don’t know how they managed to pull that off, but our mini-top hats go off to the creators of Art the Clown, a successful new addition to the horror pantheon of ghouls.

Terrifier (2016)

Episode 317, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, here we are, week three of our Halloween countdown, all the way to October 31st, our very favorite holiday. And a great season for watching horror movies that are related to Halloween in some way, shape, or form. And I believe the horror movie that we are talking about today actually takes place on Halloween.

Yep. Or at least around Halloween. Right? Yeah. And this, uh, movie was your idea. And it’s one that I’ve been wanting to see for a while since we had seen the movie All Hallow’s Eve, which I think we watched last year for Halloween. Uh, and it included a short in there the last. That, uh, I think, I think was the most powerful of all of the shorts in that anthology.

And, uh, it was, uh, starring a clown that has been deemed since then. Art The Clown, Killer Clown. And the movie that we’re watching today is the full version movie featuring Art The Clown, 2016’s Terrifier, of which I believe there is a sequel that’s. Coming out this year has already come out. Yeah. By 

Craig: the time this airs it’ll be out.

Todd: Fantastic. So Terrifier 2 if you wanna work up for that. Um, Watch Terrifier which is the movie we’re watching now. Uh, the movie’s directed by a guy named Damien Leone, who also seems to be a special effects artist. He had done too much before. That Terrifier short in All Hallow’s Eve. Uh, he directed another short before that and then did All Hallow’s Eve.

Some must be straight to video movie called Frankenstein versus The Mummy. And then, uh, this movie Terrifier, which I believe was partially backed online, uh, by some backers on Indiegogo. Yeah, you can see them. In the credit. So it’s certainly a labor of love that comes out of the enthusiasm for that clown on that short, and people wanting to see more of this, just incredibly murderous clown.

Like I said, I’d been wanting to see it before just because of how notorious it is. But I wasn’t actually looking forward to watching it, to be completely honest with you, cuz I kind of knew it might not be my kind of movie. And anyway, I, I have to say, I don’t think it really is my kind of movie , but we’ll talk about more of that later.

Uh, that’s my history with that. It’s my first time seeing it. How about you, Craig? 

Craig: Uh, I know that the first time that I saw All Hallow’s Eve was when I was on a, a trip with my mom. She was traveling for business. I, it was summertime, so I was off and available, so I just went along for the ride. Um, and she, because she was, it was a working trip.

She would need to go to bed early and I didn’t have much else to do. Stay in and watch movies on my laptop. And we shared a, a room, you know, double beds in one room. So I would sit there in the dark while she slept and watch movies on my laptop. And I watched All Hallows Eve and I thought it was surprisingly dark, like I thought it was good, but I was surprised by how dark it was.

Yeah. And I thought that Art the Clown was really scary. And at that, Terrifier was already out. I just had been unaware, uh, of either of them. So I’m pretty sure that on during that same week, uh, I watched Terrier as well, and I, I just, I felt it’s very much in keeping with, um, All Hallow’s Eve in terms of tone and style.

Maybe All Hallow’s Eve was a little bit more stylistic in some places, but, uh, again, really dark, shockingly violent. But I do think that, um, the character of Art the Clown has the potential to be a mainstay. As a villain in the horror genre for, for a while. 

Todd: Yeah, I would agree with you there. I, and I think they’re building something here that hopefully for them has some potential to stay.

We’re always looking for unique villains with unique powers and things like that. And at, and at first glance, a killer clown doesn’t seem that unique. But what makes this clown more unique is, I think two things. One, He has a different look. It’s not the colorful clown you would invite to your kid’s birthday party, right?

It’s like, A classic black and white mime, almost really uhhuh, in some kind of clown attire with these really sick looking teeth and this, this huge disgusting smile on his face. And so, yeah. So like the look of the clown is intriguing, I think even if you know nothing about it. And you don’t even watch the movie.

Yeah. You know, you see pictures of it and you’re like, Oh, that is, that’s different. So, So it’s got that going for it as a setting it apart from everything else. And then the second thing is just, I can’t even put this clown in the same camp as well. You got Freddy, right? You got Freddy who’s jokey and, and and quippy.

And you have these other villains who have seem to have a sort of a personality. They put themselves out there, there’s something off about them, but they have this sort of tragic backstory or some kind of backstory that makes them the way they. And eventually, even if for the first movie we don’t get that, subsequent movies will paint that in for us and we get a rounded out kind of villain where if it’s possible to have some sympathy, you know, for villain sometimes.

Sometimes we’ll wedge that in and, and we kind of like that. You know, Mike Meyers, the troubled youth, Freddie, who was horrible person in real life as a child molester, but then was burned to death at the stake by the parents. So, you know, Jason, who drowned in the lake, uh, by campers who weren’t paying attention.

And so he’s coming back to, to get his revenge. There’s a little bit of tragedy in all that. And there’s a little bit of backstory that rounds that character route. And in some of those cases we get it in the very first movie. And so I, I don’t wanna say we have ultimate sympathy for the vims, but there’s just something there, right?

That gives us a, a little bit of an emotional, um, edge. Like this isn’t just pure evil in front of us. You can latch onto that, uh, this guy. If there’s going to be a backstory about him, we haven’t heard it yet. Right, And and they almost seem to be deliberately not interested. Uhhuh in providing us not only a backstory or any motivation at all for him doing what he’s doing, except the fact that this is just a bad guy.

And probably supernatural. 

Yeah. 

Craig: Well, I, I, I think that that’s what makes, aside from the fact that, um, you know, it’s, it’s very, very violent that that’s, that’s scary in and of itself, but I think that part of what makes him so frightening is that there’s no rhyme or reason to him. Like, Hmm, he just picks you out and relentlessly.

Pursues you and, and violently kills you for no apparent reason. Like he doesn’t necessarily, you didn’t do anything. He’s not somebody, you know, you didn’t wrong him in some way. Um, he’s just this, uh, psychotic, persistent. Evil killer. You know? Does he have motivation? Who knows? It it, like you said, if he does, we don’t know what it is.

Is he just a guy? I mean, we, You see him at the very beginning, getting ready. Yeah. Like putting on pancake makeup and where he doesn’t wear makeup, like under his gloves and stuff appears to be human flesh. Mm-hmm. But he’s also got, uh, I don’t know, his features are just a little bit off, like, and, and the, the man who plays him in this film and in the upcoming sequel, his name is David Howard Thornton.

Uh, I’m looking at his picture on IMDB right now. He’s a good looking guy. Mm-hmm. so, I’m sure that it’s prosthetics and the makeup, but he just looks kind of off. Like his nose is a little bit too big. His chin is a little bit too protrusive. And that in combination with the stark black and white makeup, the big black lips, the d the black circles around the eyes.

He’s scary. Yeah, I, I think, I mean, I, I think that this is a scary movie and a lot of it I think is due. To, uh, David Howard Thornton’s acting. He had experience as a mime and used that, and it’s obvious his, his movement is purposeful and, and graceful and mime like. Um, he, he doesn’t speak at all. Mm-hmm.

which is unsettling also. I mean, he doesn’t even make noise. There are several, uh, times throughout the movie where he’s. , like he’ll get hit in the head with a board or get a nail shoved through his foot or something, but he never makes any noise. He’ll mime looks of pain, but he never makes any noise. And you, you talked about he’s got this really disgusting, like his teeth are disgusting.

He’s got this really menacing smile and he does, It’s this big, awkward, scary smile. In almost an instant, he can morph that into a sear. Yeah, that’s really intense and intimidating. I, I don’t know, from the beginning, from from when you see him in the beginning, which isn’t the first thing you see. There’s, there’s an opening scene first, but as soon as he appears on screen, ugh.

I think he’s spooky. . 

Todd: Yeah. I mean, no doubt. He really is. And so a unique character, if nothing else. I think sometimes, and we’ve talked about this when we’ve watched some of the more boring slashers from the eighties, sometimes a killer without a clear motivation is irritating. Uhhuh in a slasher movie. Uh, I’m not sure why.

I mean, maybe we feel cheated. Maybe we think what’s the point? Right. Maybe, uh, also without a clear motivation, they have no clear. Right. So it’s hard to tell what makes a person. It’s also hard to tell what makes a person safe and what doesn’t. So, you know, who do we root for? Who do we say, No, don’t do that.

You know you’re gonna die. Uh, in, in, in the case of a killer with no motivation, it’s all up in the air. Anybody can die at any time. Mm-hmm. , and sometimes that’s done in a scary way and sometimes it’s really boring cuz it makes the movie really predictable and, uh, you know, who’s gonna be the final girl.

Right. Well, if, who cares? I mean, there is no final girl necessarily in some of these movies. Right. Yeah. So it’s, it’s a complicated question. I guess the question is, does this movie deliver on all of its elements in a way that’s satisfying? So like you said, the movie starts out, it’s showing a, a video on a tv, like a little old style TV that’s sitting on a grungy desktop somewhere.

Mm-hmm. , and it’s a woman, uh, who’s interviewing, I think we find out that her name is Monica 

Craig: and she was in, um, all Halo Eve. She played the babysitter in the babysitter segment. Oh. Either in all, either in all Halo Eve. For all Halo Eve too. I don’t remember which one it was. I think 

Todd: it was the first one.

Okay, fair enough. I didn’t notice that. Yeah. So she’s interviewing this woman and, um, at first we don’t see the woman’s face, but she’s talking about, So you were the only surviving. Of the Miles County massacre. Now, when we left off, we were 

Craig: talking about the moment you woke up from the coma. Do you remember your initial reaction when you first saw your face?

Yes. Would you like to share that with us? 

Todd: I wish I was Ted. And then eventually we see this woman’s face and it is, Horrible. Oh yeah. I, I, they’ve made no attempt at reconstructive alactic surgery on this woman . Right. And so her face alone is terrifying. Uh, she’s missing an eye. It’s completely disfigured.

Her other eye seems to be there, but it’s not. Right. And she says, I wished I was dead. As this is playing. And we’re hearing this, like you said earlier, We see closeup shots. It’s very much like, uh, the beginning of street, Niam Street. Yeah. Where you see, not, not in full detail, but in closeups this clown putting together his makeup, putting his makeup on, sticking sharpening tools, drilling holes in other tools, that kind of thing.

What, what, what? There’s one other piece of important information, right? They said something about the body disappearing from the coroner’s office the morning of the attack, right? 

Craig: I don’t remember if they said it. I didn’t hear it. The only other thing, you know, the, the interview happens and this disfigured woman says that she would rather be dead because she can’t do anything because she’s a horrible sight.

And children run away screaming and it just makes her feel terrible. And then the interview’s over and we see the. Interviewer, Monica, talking to somebody on the phone, whether it’s her boyfriend or a business associate, I don’t know, but she’s very, Callow and, um, unsympathetic, you know, talking about the woman that she had just interviewed and she’s in her dressing room and she says something like, You know, if I ever look like that, just put me out of my misery.

And she turns around and is, Attacked by the disfigured woman. And you see, I think the disfigured woman like gouges her eyes out with her thumbs. Yeah. And that’s, that’s the opening ki you know, formula. You, you’ve got your opening kill, but we don’t know where we’re gonna go from there. And then it just jumps to these, uh, two drunk girls.

Their names are Tara and Dawn. Tara is play. She’s blonde girl. She’s played by. Played by a girl named Jenna Cannell. Dawn, uh, is played by Catherine Corcoran. Um, I looked at these young ladies, uh, pages. They have worked, you know, they’ve, they’ve both done other movies. In fact, I think they were both filming other things at the same time that they were filming this.

So they are young working actresses and, and they’re coming back from apparently a costume party because they. In costume. Yeah. Like, you know, sexy costumes or whatever, and they immediately see Art the clown, you know, walking around, uh, on the streets, carrying a black garbage bag full of who knows what.

Dawn, I, I think Dawn is the blonde one. Do you remember? I, I’ll have em mixed up the whole time if I don’t. Yeah. D 

Todd: they call, she calls her D. Yeah. Tara is the brunette and Dawn is the blond. 

Craig: Blond. Okay. So, uh, Don messes with him, I don’t know, just like cat calls him or something. Um, but then they decide instead of driving immediately, they’re gonna go into this little pizza shop to sober up and Art comes in and messes with them in there.

And, yeah, again, I, I don’t know how else to describe it. It’s, it’s scary. He just sits down in a table, kind of opposite of them and just stares, like, just stares at Tara. Yeah, 

Todd: while the, and it’s, it’s creepy while the pizza shop owner is on the phone and, and, and tells him he is gonna get to with him in a minute.

Seems like he’s dealt with weirdos like this before . Well, sure. He’s not entirely, uh, Um, concerned or disturbed or doesn’t really even comment much on the fact this guy’s in this creepy ass clown makeup. I, I have to say, like, one thing about the movie that I didn’t know what to make of and really disappointed me at first was the overall look of it.

When it first came up, uh, all we got were credits. They were credits on a black screen, and they looked cheap. You know, they looked like they were made on someone’s. Honestly, as the movie goes on through these scenes, it has a very shot on video look. Um, it’s well lit. Uh, you know, the movie’s well made, first of all.

I mean, you’ve gotta say it’s well lit. The angles are great, the cinematography is good, but it really looks almost, it has that look of something that was almost like shot on someone’s camcorder. Not like an eighties camcorder, but like an iPhone today. Mm-hmm. , you know, I was a little disappointed at that at first.

Remember in uh, all Hall’s Eve, he was obviously going for like a Grindhouse type feel. Yeah. And I feel like that’s what he’s going for with this movie too. In all Hall’s Eve, they really made it like throw back grindhouse, like they. Put some film grain on it Yes. And made it look as though it was shot on film.

And that, um, helped for me because I’m used to those Grindhouse movies. I’m used to those cheaply shot movies from the seventies that that just kind of looked bad. And, uh, and that helped for me get into the spirit of what this was going to be. A grind grindhouse style film that was gonna be bold and shocking just to keep my attention and probably have some bad acting and some bad other stuff.

So, like I said, I was a little disappointed with it at first, and then I thought about it later and I thought, you know, this is basically the Grindhouse Cinema of today. , right? Mm-hmm. cheaply shot direct to video type stuff often looks like this and the. It also has a similar effect where you realize, well, okay, like with the Grindhouse movies, there were no rules, right?

So that was kind of what’s thrilling about them. Um, they’re not going for ratings, they’re not going for a mainstream audience. And you know that the minute they come on this is kinda the same way, right? I mean, shot on video, direct to video type productions. They all kind of look like this. And, uh, also, you know, they can kind of do what.

Even though it doesn’t have that cinematic look that we’re used to, I guess it’s its own grindhouse type style of today. So I kind of came around on that. Although I think just for me, having been familiar with all the Grindhouse movies in the seventies and that particular aesthetic, that aesthetic would’ve improved the look of the movie for me and maybe my 

Craig: reception of it.

Yeah, I don’t know. I. It worked really well for the short, I thought, um, for a full feature, I think I would get a little bit tired of it. Uh, yeah, it didn’t, it didn’t bother me that, um, this was a little cleaner, but, you know, it, it was. Largely, or mostly crowdfunded. I, Google tells me that the budget was $35,000, which is Wow.

Nothing, you know, for, can’t believe for fee. Yeah. So considering that, I think it looks really good. I think that, uh, this, uh, director has. A unique style and is concerned with style. Yes. Uh, so, so often, you know, esp especially cheap and I watch a lot of them cheap, you know, quickly made, uh, movies with pretty, but talentless actors sometimes they’re just awful and they’re not concerned with style at all.

They probably literally did shoot it on their iPhone, you know, just direct, straightforward shots in day. Environments and it looks cheap. It looks like something that given a tripod, you know, just about anybody could do this, I think looks better. I do think that he’s concerned with style. It is dark even, you know, just, uh, and, and I don’t know much about this.

I, I couldn’t read, uh, I couldn’t find a lot about the technical stuff. But, um, even set decoration and setting and, and those types of things, it. There was a lot of attention paid. Yeah. So I don’t know. It didn’t, it didn’t bother me. Ultimately. This really isn’t my type of movie either. I’m not, and especially the older I get, gorgeous doesn’t really do it for me.

I am impressed when it’s done well, and I do think that it’s done well here. It’s not my favorite thing to watch that, but this movie for me, makes up for it in its originality and, uh, its style. I guess I’m not articulating myself very well. Ultimately, I guess what I’m saying is I walk away from this movie thinking, Oh, that’s a good movie.

I understand why people talk about it. Mm-hmm. I don’t need to watch it a bunch more times. . 

Todd: Right? . 

Craig: But like even some of the stuff, you know, some of the, the big scenes that people talk about, I get why they talk about it. It, it’s well done. It’s uh, yeah. Different. So Yeah. But ultimately the story, there’s, there’s not a whole lot to it.

No. The clown eventually like gets up and walks back towards the kitchen. I didn’t know where he was going. It turns out he was in the bathroom, but he gets kicked out. Uh, and he’s acting very silly, but at the same time, a little bit menacing. Um, he had given Tara like a cheap toy ring, like out of one of those gumball machine type things.

What’s her name? Dawn had gone over and like, sat on his lap and taken a bunch of selfies with him, which he looked not at all happy about, but mm-hmm. , he’s not really doing anything up to this point. He’s just acting creepy. It is Halloween, you know. Yeah, you can give him that. Dawn’s not worried about it.

She just thinks he’s some weirdo. She’s not worried about it. And eventually the girls leave, we find out after the girls leave, so they don’t know this, but the clown had apparently smeared feces and other filth all over the bathroom, and that’s what had got him. Kicked out. Yeah. And when the girls get back to their car, they find that their tires have been slit.

Um, it’s the middle of the night, they don’t know what to do. So Tara calls her sister Victoria, who’s like a graduate student, and Victoria’s gonna come pick them up, but it’s going, you know, it’s gonna take her a while to get there. So, They’re just hanging out in the car and then Tara has to pee and she gets this, uh, exterminator to let her into one of these locked buildings.

And it ends up being kind of an abandoned rundown building that they’re fumigating and that’s where most of the stuff takes place. But we don’t get really into the action in there until we get the first big gore extravaganza at the pizza place. 

Todd: Yeah, back in the pizza shop, one of the two guys who’s there, not the owner, but his, uh, employee is back there cleaning the bathroom and shouting out to Steve, the owner, and not getting much of a response.

And eventually he gets up and walks back in there into the kitchen area, and, uh, when he turns around, he notices I, I guess it, it pans through. I think this was supposed to be a thing. I don’t think it really played, but it pans through there and there’s a pumpkin. Like a jack of lantern sitting on the counter and of all things to be cgi In this movie, I read that that pumpkin was CGI

Yeah, because the, uh, director decided at the last minute, Oh, he needed just a little bit more Halloween stuck in there. So Uhhuh, he stuck a jackal lanter on there. But then it kind of thematically works because as soon as he walks back into there, you see that the jackal land’s not there anymore. It’s been replaced by Steve’s head, Uhhuh.

Somehow Art has not only cut off his head, but left his eyes and his mouth burning like 

Craig: candles. Yeah, it’s funny, there are things in this movie. This movie came out in 2016. There are things in this movie that have since popped up in other huge mainstream horror movies, like when we watched the 2018.

Halloween, Michael Myers does this. He, he made one of the cop’s heads into, uh, a Jack Lanter. That’s true. The woman with the horribly disfigured face from the beginning. There is a very, very similar looking character in Jordan Peel’s newest movie. Uh, nope. So who knows if it’s inspiration or if these are just happenstances, but, um, I have a feeling that probably those other filmmakers have seen this movie.

I think it’s notorious enough that they’ve seen it, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a little bit of borrowing of imagery in some of these cases. 

Todd: I think you’re probably right. Uh, you really are. I, I, I, and I think there was an older, older, much older movie too, where somebody’s head was carved out as a Jack Alan.

Oh, I’m sure. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so, so anyway, art attacks this guy from behind surprises him, and, uh, first thing he cuts off his hand just brutally with, you know, the guy’s reaching for the phone. He just hacks it right off and then, uh, gets down on top of him and just starts stabbing him in the face, brutally stabbing him in the face over and over again.

It really sets up the tone like what this guy’s all about. He is about absolute just carving people up. He’s just utter, utterly brutal. And the camera does not shy away from it. Pretty much everything that happens, you’re gonna see on screen, You’re gonna see it in closeup, whereas other movies will often cut away at some point or have things happen a little, or at least shake things up a.

By having certain kills happen off screen, you see a blood splatter somewhere? Uh, no. This movie’s up close and personal, uh, and really disgusting. And I think the effects are actually pretty well 

Craig: done. I think they’re good. Mm-hmm. . 

Todd: Oh, that’s where all the money went, ? 

Craig: Yeah. I, I think so. I mean, they look practical.

Um, do they always look 100% true to life? No, but they, but they look. Really good and messy and bloody and tangible, like it looks like something you could reach out and touch. It doesn’t look like a cartoon. It doesn’t look like a video game. Yeah. And you, anybody who listens to this podcast knows that I’m a sucker for practical effects.

So, um, as grizzly as it was, um, Which isn’t necessarily my favorite. I thought it was really well done. Yeah, 

Todd: it was. And it’s kind of funny too because I think at this point Tara still hasn’t come out of the car to go to the bathroom and the two of them are in there talking and they’re saying, Could that clown have, have cut these tires?

And, and Dawn is saying, no. I think he’s just harmless. And at the same time, just dead cuts. Did the Scott Clouds stabbing the guy in? Yeah, . It’s kind of clever. So like you said, uh, Tara’s in there. She asked for the bathrooms, talked to this guy, talked about rats. Do you, Meanwhile, was in the car listening to the radio and I thought it was cute.

There was an ad for a Halloween superstore, on there. And then your classic report about a brutal killer who’s, uh, been, you know, on the loose, the police are on the lookout for who looks like a clown, and, uh, has just killed two people at the pizza shop now. Who else witnessed ? I thought it was just the four of them in the pizza shop.

How they got a bead on the fact that this killer was dressed as a clown. I’m not quite sure. Maybe somebody from outside saw him leave there, walked down the street or something. I didn’t even think about that, but you’re right. It’s funny. Anyway, uh, there’s that and uh, there’s an ambulance that goes by and, uh, when she turns around to look in the seat beside her, cuz she thinks Tara’s gotten back in the.

the clown is there and he kind of does a big surprise, kinda look on his face. Uhhuh, . 

Craig: Uh, and she screams, Yeah, but, but it cuts away, so we don’t know. Mm. What happened to her, And then I think pretty much immediately, Tara has called her sister, but she’s in there. She, well, first of all, she runs into this creepy cat lady like

I had no idea what was going on with this woman. See, there’s this crazy lady who lives in this abandoned building with her daughter Emily, which is just a porcelain doll. But she talks to it and treats it like it’s a. Baby. And she’s just weird and, and Tara just kinda runs into her and is like, Okay, gotta go bye.

And she goes to leave. A silly character. Yeah, she goes to leave, but Art is waiting for her at the door and he starts chasing her. And the next what? I don’t know, at least half hour, feels just very cat and mouse, you know, like mm-hmm. He’ll appear and chase her around and she’ll hide. And this is an old rundown building.

So there’s all kinds of equipment and, uh, machinery and cars and things to hide behind. It’s dimly lit, dirty, grimy. And it’s just cat and mouse. Like she’ll get away for a little bit and then it’ll pop up and it’ll stab her in the leg, and then she’ll get up and she’ll run away and she’ll hide some more, and then he pops up again.

And that goes on for a while. Not so long that it felt tedious. I did think that it was 

Todd: tense. It was tense. I thought this was the most tense part of the movie. Really. 

Craig: I, I guess all I’m getting at is there’s really not much to the plot. Like Yeah, he basically just chases them around and kills them from this point on.

Todd: I mean, it’s, yeah, just one person after another somehow stumbles into there or gets there, or, 

Craig: Well, and there are a couple of good scares. Like at one point she almost gets to the exterminator guy. She’s right behind him, but he has earphones in and so he can’t hear her. And just as he turns around, Reaches out from off, uh, camera and grabs her and puts his hand over her mouth and pulls her away.

So she’s pulled away just the split second before she would’ve been seen. And 

Todd: one of the funny things about art, uh, I guess his trademark, you can just imagine like the, uh, creators of this character sitting around being like, All right, what weapon, what’s his trademark weapon gonna be? And they can’t decide.

I don’t know. Why don’t we just give him a bag full of weapons? He can just choose whatever he wants. ? Yeah, A hesty bag. It’s a clown with the big hefty bag full of scary implements. And after he pulls her away, he has a syringe that he sticks in her neck and injects some kind of drug in there to knock her out.

And when she wakes up, she’s tied to a chair with. Mouth covered and art, uh, goes to his little bag, pawing through it and pulling out various implements and coming at her with them in kind of a mime like way, kind of a terrifying way. Like, Oh, I’m gonna hitch in the face with a hatchet, and then decides no, and then, Oh, I’m gonna saw your neck off with this, with this saw.

Oh no, I’m not gonna do that. But then he, he has holding this saw and he walks in front of her where he has a sheet draped over something and when he takes the sheet off, it is her friend Dawn hung upside. By her legs in front of her from some kind of contraption. Mm-hmm. tears, the girl’s underwear off.

So she’s completely nude by this point and alive, and he walks over there and takes that saw and you know what’s coming seconds before it happens. And it’s even just the knowledge of it is cringy. Mm-hmm. , he takes that saw to, I mean, her legs are kind of spread apart and pointing straight up in the air, the middle of her legs and starts sawing down through her.

Basically sawing her body in half from the crotch. 

Craig: Yeah. And the blood is spraying. And Tara is screaming. He’s kind of joyful in Oh yeah. Woohoo. Oh, he’s totally enjoying himself. And the contrast of the red blood splashing on his white face and his white clothes, and by the end of the movie, he is just saturated in blood.

But, uh, the camera doesn’t linger, but it also doesn’t deny us glimpses. Is happening. I mean, we see this body prop getting sawed through Yeah. In glimpses all the way down to the bottom and, and her intestines are falling out onto the floor. And he, any, I mean, he saws completely through her, It. It’s disgusting.

It’s shocking. I’ve never seen that before. Um, I can’t say with any certainty whether or not it’s been done before, but I haven’t seen it before and it’s shocking and it’s practical. Looks practical. Anyway. Uh, difficult to watch. Disgusting, but, uh, I, I feel, I feel like that’s the most notorious scene when people talk about this movie.

They talk about that kill. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s sort of a, how can you possibly top that moment, you know? Yeah. And, uh, and it’s purely for shock value. I mean, and you know what kind of movie this is? It’s going to linger on the. I’ve 

Craig: read, of course, I, I haven’t seen the sequel yet because, uh, as of this taping, it’s not out.

But that was one of their challenges that they set for themselves, for the sequel, was to top themselves and specifically to top this kill. It’s been screened, um, for some audiences, uh, and the feedback is that they have been successful, that the, the sequel is even. Wilder and gorier and more violent and more creative.

It’s getting really, really positive reviews from the limited people who have seen it. So, whew. I don’t know how much more I can take, but , right? 

Todd: I mean, I’m like, but I know I’ll watch it. I’m like you, I mean I watch it cuz it’s notorious and I, I want, I’m a kind of a completionist in that, you know, I want to see what people are talking about.

We’ve talked about it before. Neither you nor I are, are big gore hounds. We appreciate the special effects and, and the artistry That kind of goes into that aspect of it. And, you know, it can be fun, but ultimately, I’m not usually very interested in seeing a movie whose sole purpose is just to show people brutally being killed in multiple ways on the screen with, without much else going for it.

I, I think this movie has other things going for it, but not much. , you know, the plot, it, it’s, there’s not, there’s hardly any plot. The clown is the saving grace here and his 

Craig: character. I also like that. Um, surprise. Well, it, it surprised me several different times. It, it doesn’t force itself to adhere to any kind of formula or our expectations, right.

For example, I just assumed that Tara would be the final. And they set it up to seem like she’s going to be, after she watches her friend get, uh, brutally, brutally murdered. Somehow she gets away. She, she gets herself. Untied or something. And she sta she, she grabs one of art’s utensils and stabs him in the back and runs, and then she picks up a two by four and waits for him to come and beats the crap out of her, out of him.

Uh, I mean, she’s really getting the best of him. He’s down on the ground, she’s taunting him, telling him to get up. And then this surprised. , he’s down on the ground. He quickly turns towards her and raises a gun and shoots her. That is totally breaking a huge rule. These types of villains and horror movies don’t use guns.

They just don’t. Yeah. Um, and so to see it done, it shocked me. I was gen, I was surprised. I, I will honestly say there was a part of me that. That. Hey, that’s not fair, . 

Todd: Yeah. Well, I think that was the reaction from a lot of fans, even, um, even to all Halls. Eve was like, because he, he whips out a gun as well too in that movie and shoots a guy from a car.

It’s something I never thought about until it happened, you know, I never thought about the fact these killers don’t use guns. Until it happened. I was like, That’s weird. Why is that weird? Oh, yeah. You don’t see guns in slasher movies. It’s, it’s like too easy. Maybe, you know, , like it’s not, it’s just bang your dead and, and slasher movies are really about, you know, the kind of that visceral up close coming right at you being right there, right.

And stabbing you with something. You, 

Craig: the good guys can have guns. The bad guys never do. Mm-hmm. or hardly ever. 

Todd: Yeah. But it’s one of his bag of 

Craig: tricks. Yeah. If, if this were real life, there would be no rules. So why do there have to be rules in the movie? 

Todd: Yeah. So she stabs him in the back as well and runs off.

I think that she’s a little dumb here. Like the taunting him I thought was a little silly. I would’ve thought at this point she would just be beating him relentlessly with that board. Right. Especially when he’s down and he’s vulnerable. Instead, she’s trying to get him up to face. Before she tries to hit him again, which, which puts her at a terrible disadvantage.

Uh, but, you know, I guess whatever are they’re trying to say, she’s more interested in a kind of showdown revenge than, uh, actually getting out of there alive, which isty 

Craig: well, which is not atypical of horror Final girls. There often is that big showdown true between the final girl and it’s a big. You know, action packed piece.

But this defies that. He gets her down, um, with the shot to the leg, and then we see a shot of the cat lady, and she’s like talking to the doll, telling it’s gonna be okay or whatever. Then he shoots her in the abdomen and then in the face, but she’s still alive. Her sister shows up and calls her phone and art.

Art. Ha hears it and he’s got the phone. So this evil clown texts her , Tara, Sick, come around back. Mm-hmm. . I thought that was so funny. . Yeah, it’s hilarious. But then art. Art takes a selfie with Don’s body, which. Kind of clever and funny. Yeah. And then shoots Tara in the head a bunch more times. Yes. I, I just, you know, I didn’t see that coming, even if she wasn’t gonna be the final girl, even if Victoria the sister was going to be the hero, I expected that Victoria would show up and rescue her baby sister.

That’s usually how these things work. Yeah. 

Todd: Nope, doesn’t happen. She gets shot in the face multiple times. So the weird cat lady standing there, she sees it and the clown smiles at her in waves and then she runs off and she ends up upstairs where the pest control guy is still spraying. And, and the reason he can’t hear anything that’s going on is cuz he’s got these earbuds in that are really loud and she’s coming to him.

There’s a dead woman in your basement. And, and he, he’s trying to kill us and he’s killed people already and blah, blah, blah. He just doesn’t 

Craig: believe her. Well, she’s. I mean, she seems 

Todd: crazy. Yeah. So she, he’s no help and she runs off well, 

Craig: but not before. Like he, he tries to call somebody a friend or something.

He goes to the stairwell Yeah. To make a call, and he gets hit in the back of the head with a hammer Art. Hits him. Mm-hmm. . And so he’s presumably dead. Yep. And Art gets his phone. It leads to this weird moment. So the cat lady goes back, Victoria’s like circling the building trying to get in. She eventually gets in, but in the meantime, there’s this weird scene where the cat lady goes back to her little den and.

The baby doll is missing. And so she goes looking around for it and she eventually finds art in this looks like subterranean hallway, uh, lit with some, some like flashy fluorescent light. And he’s just sitting crosslegged on the floor, cradling the baby and like rocking the baby. And she approaches and there’s this really strange.

Scene. I don’t know if I get, and I don’t know if I’m supposed to get it, because she approaches him and she’s kind of pleading with him and she says something like, Is there kindness in you? Somewhere in your heart? Have you ever felt at Mother’s Touch? Can you show no mercy? She’s all I have in this world, and she’s getting closer and closer and closer to him.

She like caresses his face and it seems like he’s into it. Yeah. 

Todd: Well, he’s like sucking his thumb. He puts his thumb in his mouth. He’s sucking his thumb. He, he leans his head into her as though she’s his mom and he’s cra she’s cradling him right there and it cuts away from it. She’s like, Sh, sh, You’re okay.

You’re okay. Does that ever 

Craig: resolve? Well, yeah, kind of. Because the next thing, the next thing that happens is, uh, Victoria is looking around and she hear. Tara’s voice calling to her, which I don’t understand. 

Todd: Well, she hears the ring right? Doesn’t she hear a ring of 

Craig: the phone? Maybe. But she stumbles upon the gruesome scene of Don’s body split in half, and the cat lady is on the ground with her shirt off and like it looks like something or somebody has like clawed her chest open or something.

You don’t get to see her for very long. It’s not, but she’s still alive. And then Victoria notices her sister Tara on the floor, and Tara is somehow still alive. And I’m like, What? I saw her get shot in the head like 10 times. This doesn’t make any sense. Yeah, but it turns out it’s because it’s not her, It’s art.

Wearing her skin like a. What , 

Todd: I mean, she has breasts and everything. How did he have time to do this? I was confused at this skin. Are you sure it was. It was definitely her skin. I mean, I was so weirded out by this part, . I didn’t know what to think because art, it’s art. He gets up, he’s got his clown ahead, but he has a woman’s body and I didn’t think it was obvious that he was wearing her skin because he has breast.

He has breasts that move and shake and stuff. And he gets up and he starts kind of doing this weird kind of dance and then she runs away and he’s sort of running after her. We get a lot of full body shots of him and it looks like he’s a woman. . 

Craig: I thought he was wearing her skin, like he played her.

That’s what it looked like to me, but I don’t know it. And it like, It’s sh never shot in closeup. It’s usually his full body in the frame, so I can’t tell. I mean, I guess it could be him or parts of it could be him, like maybe he just cut her breast off. I, I don’t know, but it’s 

Todd: really, I just didn’t see the cuts Yeah.

For that. Okay. It’s 

Craig: really unsettling and the way he dances and is clearly taunting Victoria. Uh, it’s really wicked and it’s, it’s a little bit reminiscent of silence of the Lambs. 

Todd: Yes, Yes. 

Craig: Really creepy. Like he’s intentionally putting on a feminine affect in his movement. And again, this guy studied mime, so he knows how to use his body, very unsettling.

And she hides like in a locker or something she can kind of see out through a key hole. Um, and it seems like. Knows that she’s there and eventually he kind of disappears out of her line of sight, but then pops up right in front and is trying to get the door open but can’t get it open. Um, and he eventually goes away for some reason.

I don’t even remember why. 

Todd: Well, it’s because the, the pest control guy has a co, has a companion coworker and his coworker’s been kind of calling him, asking where he is and he actually shows up at the back. So, um, he manages to get into the place from the back, and I think Art hears that and he walks off to find him.

That’s the guy’s walking around now. And I mean, at this point, the movie, I’m like, All right, well we got another victim here, you know, And 

Craig: that’s exactly what it is. Yeah. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. , like, he just follows a trail of blood and stuff on the floor. He stumbles across the weird. and the clown raises right up behind him pretty suddenly and stabs him straight down in the head.

Um, which is reminiscent of another movie we saw recently that I thought was pretty disturbing. Was it pieces? I don’t remember which one it was. Anyway, and then, um, he takes a saw and saws off his head, and this is all shown in excruciating. Full on detail. Yeah, it looks okay. I mean, for practical effects, there’s a little bit of fakeness to it, but otherwise it looks fake.

It’s just super gross. Yeah, he’s and very exploitative and so he saw us off his head and uh, the guy’s body falls. He sets the head down and then kicks it across the room like a football. 

Craig: The next thing that I have in my notes is Victoria passes Tara’s discarded skin hair. I think he was wearing her. Mm.

Um, cuz she sees a pile of it on the floor. Wow. And then she hides around some corner and art comes out riding a tricycle like Billy the Puppet. Mm-hmm. from the saw movies, which was weird and had to have been homage because those movies had been out. For a long 

Todd: time at this point. Yeah. But also it’s the kind of trope of the clown riding a tiny bicycle as well.

That’s true. 

Craig: Uh, gosh. She, uh, she keeps running away. Eventually he pops up behind her, puts plastic over her face. Um, she struggles for a while, but eventually rips it open at the mouth and she grabs a huge nail and stabs him in the foot. 

Todd: And the pest control guys coming to life suddenly, um, the one who was hit with a hammer.

Craig: Yeah, and he calls the cops and it seems like they’re gonna get out, but then art shows up again and knocks the. Janitor or the pest control guy downs, like curb stomps his head and smashes his head to smithereens. Yeah. Then, gosh, I don’t even, there’s one part, so, okay. She finds stomps his head then what?

Todd: Yeah, she, she has found her sister who’s, um, been propped up on a chair, I think clothed again, so I don’t know. But anyway, and she’s got the word clown on a sign in front, you know, on her lap. And she’s strung up with lights. And then the, uh, art comes up from behind her and he, one of his weapons, which I think he also had in the first movie was a chain, and I thought this was unique.

It’s like a long chain that he has tied different sharp implements to along the length of it so that when he whips it around like a whip and whips her with it, she gets cut up and torn up a ton. But you know, they have a struggle. And, uh, she manages to get loose and, uh, he’s kind of strangling her and, and then she gets him in the eye, which then incapacitates him for a little bit and she manages to make it outside.

She gets outside, which is what they’ve been trying to do this whole time. Art has locked the entire building with like chains and deadbolts from the inside. Like every door they try, they can’t get outta the building. She gets outside, looks around, and immediately turns around and tries to go back inside the building through another.

Craig: I honestly didn’t understand what was happening. I don’t know if I blinked and missed something or what, but I reo it. 

Todd: I, I look, I was looking to see what motivated her now that she was outside to go right back in the building and there was nothing, nothing I could see. 

Craig: Well, the next thing that I remember there, like these big doors that say Keep out.

And she goes in and he grabs her through the door, but he can’t squeeze through, so he just taunts her with the bicycle horn. And then the next thing you. He hits her with a truck. Like what? Yeah, . Like when did he get I, I, I guess it was the, the, uh, exterminator truck. 

Todd: Oh, maybe, maybe it was the ex, maybe he left the keys in it or something.

I don’t know. But the, the clown drives 

Craig: this truck right through the door that she’s behind and, and runs her down, and then the cops show up. And was he kneeling over her eating her face? Is that what was going. 

Todd: Yeah, that’s what they mentioned later. He’s kneeling over her, eating her face. The cops show up and they’re like, Put, you know, stand up.

Stand up, put the gun down. He’s got the art, has his gun, Put the gun down. Put the gun down. Art gets this kind of like look on his face, like, oh God. He stands up and he turns around and by now American cops would’ve shot this guy five or six times. . He swings around with a gun in his hand. , but it, it, they, they, they’re still holding their guns on him and he takes his gun, he puts it in his mouth and he shoots himself in the head.

Mm-hmm. unmistakably up through the brain, falls down, you see the blood running out of his head. His head’s almost like flattened a little bit by the bits blown out the back. I mean, this was surprising. Obviously did not expect the killer at the end of the movie to just shoot himself. No, I don’t know. I God, well, I didn’t know what to make of that at all.

Of course. I’m still trying to figure out why this stupid woman was running back into the building. She was struggling so hard to get out of. Well, the 

Craig: cops, the cops are surprised to find that Victoria is still alive. Oh yeah. . She, you, you can hear her gasping. Um, yeah, but they don’t show her, I don’t think.

And then it cuts to a morgue and it’s a goofy scene with the mortician like eating a sandwich while he’s working on dead people. And the cops bring in a couple of body bags and. One of them is the guy who got his head completely smashed. Um, but the other one is art the killer. And so after the cops leave, the doctor opens art’s body bag and Art is, has his eyes open, staring right at him with a huge smile on his face.

And then the lights start blinking. The phone starts ringing, you know, something. Weird, magical. It’s clearly happening. Mm-hmm. . And then all of that stops and art grabs the doctor’s throat sits up, and then it cuts to black fade back in on a hospital hallway with a woman in a wheelchair. People standing around her and it says one year later, turns out it’s Victoria’s parents taking her home.

They swing her, uh, wheelchair around and we see that she is. The disfigured woman from the beginning of the movie. Mm-hmm. . So all of that, that opening scene, the rest of the movie actually happened before that. Um, yeah. And then there’s just a flash of art’s face, uh, really quick. And then the credits role.

Todd: Yeah. I think the clear implication here is that he’s supernatural. 

Craig: Which was suggested in the original short too. Mm-hmm. . Um, there was no way he could do all of the things that he did in that short. So yeah, there’s something supernatural going on. Um, and of course we know that he’s coming back, uh, for a sequel, which honestly I’m really kind of excited to see just because I think that this director, uh, has a vision.

And it’s really picking up support. Um, it was a little indie movie, um, and I think that people eventually found it over time on streaming services and by word of mouth. And at this point I think it’s pretty well known. At the least by real horror fans. Yeah, your, your casual horror fan who only sees, you know, blockbuster type horror films, may not be aware of this.

But, uh, I do see, you know, images of art, the clown popping up in pop culture, um, and in merchandise. It’s a lot these days there’s been a lot of hype about this sequel coming out. Um, so I think that if he hasn’t already, he’s well on his way to cementing himself in the pantheon of. Classic horror villains.

Um, and I, I would argue deservedly so. Yeah. Um, I think he is frightening and unique. I think the, uh, performance, uh, the portrayal of the character is really strong. This guy who did the movie is not the guy who originated the character in the short, but he has done this movie and, uh, he’s reprising his role for the second one.

So I’m actually looking forward to it in, in terms of, Would I recommend it to others to, uh, major horror fans? Absolutely. I think you should definitely see it. Um, it is a, a Halloween movie. It’s got Halloween elements with costumes and decorations and, and stuff. So if, if you’re into the, kinda like more hardcore stuff.

The, the, the really scary, the really gory, You’re gonna love this. Yeah. If you’re not. If, if you’re gonna, gore is not your thing, if uh, really, really graphic violence is not your thing, then you are not going to like it at all. And I would caution you, um, to stay away from it. At the 

Todd: end of the day. It’s really mostly about that.

I’m interested in seeing the sequel just to see where they go with it from here. And if they go with it, you know what I mean? I mean, do they have a concept or revision of something beyond just this cloud running around killing people all day long? I know. Are we gonna get some backstory? Are we gonna get some more insight into the character?

Is there gonna be kind some twist or some new ability has, or are they gonna up the stakes beyond just a small, you know, a coup of just a handful of small, insignificant people in a little building? I want something a little clever. I want at least a thread of a story I can get. Something I can laugh at.

And this movie’s, I don’t know, there’s a little bit of humor in it. There’s actually, there’s, there’s, there’s a fair amount of extremely dark humor in it. Yeah. Uh, really dark. Yeah. 

Craig: So, but it’s also, it’s really nihilistic too. 

Todd: Yeah. And, and the nihilism in this day and age. For me anyway. I get enough of that just in everyday life and the news.

Um, Right. You know, I’m actually really interested in that sequel because there’s something compelling about this clown. You know, maybe there doesn’t need to be any backstory. Maybe that’s really not the point. I don’t care about that. What I really just wanna see is a story, just some attempt at more of a story, just some more interesting characters that I care about just to.

A little bit more of that emotional punch. You know, even the Friday the 13th movies, as much as I dog on them, they are guilty pleasure of buying and you know, they at least make some attempt at a, at some kind of story and making some interesting characters. And I think if, honestly, I think if this were rounded out with that, I think it’s the lack of that that really, um, kind of makes me.

About this particular movie, and maybe that’s something that the sequel will fix. But yeah, I mean, everything you said, I, I pretty much agree with, If you’re a Gore hound, you’re gonna love it. It’s, it’s a movie for you made with love. It’s a love letter to you basically. Um, and I agree with you. I think this villain is, is gonna be here with us to stay, especially if this second movie does.

Does well. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and also please consider supporting us on Patreon. If you support us on Patreon, you’ll get access to a couple minisodes that we do Every month. You get access to the entire unedited version of our phone calls that we do.

We, we end up revealing a lot of personal information on those. We don’t cut away at the end of our recordings. So, uh, you can hear a little bit about what’s going on in our lives and what we chat about, if that’s interesting to you. Uh, as well as, uh, you get to influence the movies that we do next. We always run our requests by our patrons.

We have one more Halloween episode to do, uh, and I think we should, uh, brighten it up a little bit after this Horribly depressing moving . Let’s, let’s go out with a, with a happy goofy bag next week. What do you think? All right. Sounds good. All right. Until then, I’m. And I’m Craig with a Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week’s episode was a suggestion by two of our Patrons when we asked: What are some Halloween movies we can cover this month?

It started out as a documentary on haunted attractions around the USA during this season, but became repurposed into a found footage-style horror film. Our reactions were mixed, but there is some fun footage and interviews here of real haunted house attractions and actors that will definitely get you in the mood for the season. Enjoy!

The Houses October Built ()

Episode 316, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, here we are week two of our Halloween extravaganza, which is always my favorite time of the year, both, uh, personally and for our podcast because we get to do Halloween themed movies. This time around we decided to ask our patrons, uh, what movie.

That are Halloween themed cuz we have patrons now . Yeah. What Halloween themed movies that we don’t know about would you like us to do? And so, uh, we posed that question to them and we got a nice pile of recommendations actually. So that was nice, but we also posed it to everybody else on our Facebook page.

Leisha and Heather both recommended The Houses October Built, which was a movie I had heard about, was on our Halloween list. But, uh, we bumped up to the top because they recommended it. I mean, you know. Uh, two people. You can’t go wrong there. So here we are. Great. , . It’s not just one, but two. Uh, The Houses October Built from 2014, so that’s a good solid, like eight years ago, years ago.

Mm-hmm. that this movie came out and it was directed by a person named Bobby Roe, written by Zach Andrews, Bobby Roe, and Jason Zeta. When I researched this movie on imdb, I realized that, uh, it seems like Bobby Roe, Zach Andrews, and these. Haven’t really done much beyond this film and the sequel to it. So yeah, and 

Craig: I think it started out, uh, they did a documentary first, right?

Like this, this movie, it’s a found footage film about haunted attractions, like during the Halloween season. And I haven’t watched it, but I think that it initially was a documentary on the same subject. And then they made this movie, which obviously is fiction, but uh, I think that’s where it started. 

Todd: They must have used quite a bit of footage from their documentary for this, because they went probably filmed actual haunted attractions around the us.

I don’t know for sure because I didn’t do a ton of research, but it seems like a number of the interviews or whatever, it’s, it’s, it’s presented as a found footage movie of some people who are setting out to do a documentary about the scariest haunted attractions in the US during Halloween time. And, uh, I strongly suspect that a number of the people in this film, and quite a bit of the footage that we’ve seen were literally just people at these haunted attract.

Yeah, quite candid interviews with folks. So, um, not acted at all. And then the plot of this movie sort of framed around it. Uh, and, and you know, I don’t know about you Craig, but uh, well, I’m sure about you, I don’t know, but I’m sure , that um, you enjoy going out during Halloween time and enjoying some of these haunted attractions just as much as.

I do, 

Craig: but nobody else does, so I don’t get to do it very much. Um hmm. Alan’s 

Todd: not into this, huh? No. 

Craig: No. Oh God, no. . Absolutely not. growing up, like I always wanted to do these things, but my sister wasn’t interested. I remember one year when we were little kids, little kids, my parents took us to a haunted house at a frat, which was probably it.

It had to have been my dad. I’m sure my mom had nothing to do with this. My dad took us to like a haunted house at a fraternity. I live in a college town. We have three universities in the town, the small town that I live in. Um, and so the always, every October different fraternities, um, put together haunted attractions and my, my dad took me and my sister to one and like this is when we were little enough.

I, I remember vividly, I have no idea what my costume was. I think maybe I was a clown or something, but my sister was a cat and my, uh, my parents were also, we were not wealthy growing up. I mean, we were. Uh, when I was a kid, my parents were still in school and working. You know, my dad worked in a factory and he worked in a grocery store.

My mom was a nurse and they were still both furthering their education. By the time I was a teenager, they had both finished their educations, had good jobs, so we were comfortable middle class, but when we were little, we didn’t have a lot of money, and so my parents were not. Spending money on Halloween costumes.

So my sister was a cat, which means that she wore a dance outfit. She a black leotard. Leotard. Like the first leotard? Yeah. Yeah. White tights. Uh, a pair of cat ears was probably the only thing that was purchased. And then like one of my dad’s like, Work socks stuffed full of stuff in Pinder butt for a tail.

Todd: Yeah, . 

Craig: And we, we went through this, uh, haunted house and I remember it was scary. It wasn’t for kids. Um, I, I also remember that the guys, the fraternity guys were, were very nice. Um, and, and didn’t try. They didn’t go out of their way to scare us too bad because we were little kids. But I remember that my sister’s tail fell off in the haunted house, , and she was so, she was so distraught after we got out, like I, I, I don’t remember if there were tears, but she was so distraught after we got out and.

Fraternity boys, um, you know, in these scary costumes were so kind to us, and they, they went back inside and, and found her tail and brought 

Todd: it back out for us. They pinned the tail back on your sister . Yeah. 

Craig: I don’t, I, I hope they let my dad do the pinning, but, uh, , but yeah, that, that’s, that’s my big experience.

But they, they do, you know, around here every year they’re, they’re like, Corn mazes and, uh, haunted houses and stuff. I haven’t been to one in years, but I do love them. And so I, I was fascinated by the idea of this movie. I, I, I’ve seen it before. Uh, it was recommended to us to watch, and I do enjoy it for, I enjoy it because I do like to see.

These real, you know, haunted attractions cuz some of them are really impressive. Mm. And I would really like to go, you know, to some of the ones that you see here. Mm. But it makes for an interesting movie because it’s really not plot heavy. It’s, it’s really just them going around , you know, they take us through these different haun.

Attractions, which is kind of fun to see. And there is a plot, but it’s kind of, I don’t 

Todd: know. It’s threadbare. Yeah. It’s really threadbare. And ultimately I will say, I mean, you know, just throwing all my cards in the table right up front. It’s a little disappointing. We, we have an international audience here and so, you know, the more I live abroad and, and, and travel abroad, the more.

Understand wholeheartedly that Halloween is a distinctly American holiday. Yes. Doesn’t exist anywhere else in the world. However, over time, other parts of the world have adopted it, and so they may not have the same traditions, they may have created their own traditions. The idea of going through a haunted.

You know, this sort of, uh, attraction where you’re walking through something and getting scared. It’s not unique to the US but, um, I think that in October, maybe people around the world don’t realize that these attractions spring up Around the United States, there are people who make their whole living with these things.

If you drive a short distance from where you. You know, spent a lot of time together to like Kansas City or St. Louis, some other big city. For example, in Kansas City, I went to high school not far from Kansas City, and so every October we would drive into Kansas City around Halloween time, where for the whole month there were these places.

It’s actually usually a really bad part of town that you wouldn’t normally go. Except it’s a little safer during this time because there’s so much traffic. Mm-hmm. and these haunted houses exist. There are old warehouses that, um, back in the day were very bustling and since then have become abandoned and then purchased by people who have repurposed them into these haunted houses, and they’re not open year round.

They’re only open during the month of October, maybe a little bit into November, maybe a little bit into September. Yeah. And they pour a lot of money into these, these buildings to outfit them with different animatronics and different scenery and things like that every single year. And you can go, you pay some money, you walk through here with your friends and you just get scared and you wander through different scenes and things.

It’s, it’s so much fun. It’s super fun. Yeah, it’s super fun and it’s just, you know, again, it’s like watching a horror movie. We’ve talked about this before. Mm-hmm. , it’s a safe way to get scared to sort of real life experience, what it might be like to be, be sought by demons and monsters and things like that, but you know you’re gonna be okay.

There might be, even in the smallest town, there might be three or four of these varying in quality, but they’re usually thrown together in some place. They were able to rent out for a little while. But thrown together an earnest, and they’re usually really fun to go through. As a kid in high school, my dad and I were enlisted to create our own haunted house for the local fall festival that was done by our middle school that my sisters were in.

My sisters were in middle school, I was in high school, and so my dad and I got a measly $500 budget, and with that went out and bought lumber and props and all kinds of stuff, and plotted out on paper. And constructed this haunted house in the band room, of the, uh, middle school, local middle school to put on.

That was just loads of fun. Like it’s loads of fun being on the, the, the part of going through it, it’s loads of fun being on the side of like, putting these things together and, and scaring people. It’s just one of my all time favorite things to do during Halloween and living in China. I just miss it so.

We used to do this as kids for like our families, like in my grandparents’ house, we would make haunted houses for them to go through. Aw. It’s just fun. So, So to have a movie just based around this is already a sell for me, You know, I’m already into it. Um, and this being a found footage movie, like you said, that takes you through actual places that exist.

I wanna see these places. I wanna see what they are. Yeah, I wanna check it out, you know, regardless of the plot of the movie. So yeah, it gets me in the spirit of things, it’s, 

Craig: it’s funny because obviously I, I had never heard that story of yours before, but it’s, it’s interesting, the people were nice and, and looking out for kids, which I, I, I, I guess shouldn’t surprise me because we’ve talked about this.

We’ve talked to people who go to horror conventions and stuff, and they say that horror fans are really some of the kindest people they’ve ever met, but this movie isn’t . This movie will make you think that going to these kinds of attractions. is dangerous, puts you and and I 

Todd: and puts 

Craig: you in peril. , and, and to be fair, you know what, what these folks are doing, there’s like, it’s five friends.

They are looking for the most extreme haunted attractions. Like that’s, that’s what they wanna find is the most extreme. And of, I’ve never done that. I’ve never sought those out. And, and maybe they exist, but this movie makes. Seem like you may legitimately be putting yourself at risk. In fact, like there are a couple of scenes where the workers at these different events are aggressively hostile towards, Yeah.

Are, are characters and, and you know, that hasn’t been my experience at all, but maybe it does happen. Not me neither. The, the truth is , I don’t, you know, they’re seeking these things out where, There are no rules. You know, I, I, I think that it’s kind of generally understood at most of these things. These, the, the people who are working them will do whatever they can in their power to frighten you, but you are safe.

That’s the expectation. And most of the time, like they won’t touch you. You know, they might chase you. They might chase you, and they might men 

Todd: you, they’re prohibited from touching you, but yeah, but they won’t 

Craig: touch you, you. You’re fine. And that’s in this movie, not the case. But again, that’s what they’re seeking out.

They, they want, Yeah. It’s actually, you know, uh, pretty clever. They are. Interviewing the employees at these places and asking them, What have you heard about the most extreme places? What can you tell us about the most extreme places? Um, and all of it is rumor, uh, yeah. You know, nobody can say with any kind of certainty.

That these extreme places actually exist. It’s always, Well, I’ve heard about this place here, or I’ve heard about this attraction here, so that you never really know if it’s real, but that’s what they’re seeking out. 

Todd: Well, and that’s kind of the nice thing about it, right? Haven’t we all, I, I mean, I don’t know about you, but I live near Detroit for, um, I guess this would’ve been between my, uh, year, uh, grade three and grade six.

I lived in Detroit. And, uh, there was a rumor that was going around at the time about a haunted house that was six stories high, each story being progressively more and more scary, and you paid six hours to get in. And after every floor, they would give you a dollar back. So the idea was that if you could make it through all six floors, you would get to go through this haunted house for free, but nobody would could ever get through, you know, the sixth floor because it was just, all of it was just so, so scary.

And you know, To my fourth grade, fifth grade mind. That sounds entirely plausible as an adult. It sounds extremely ridiculous, right? . Yeah. But, but nonetheless, like these stories, they exist. Um, and then there are very real things that have happened in these haunted houses, right? Not to discount the fact at the same time when I lived in Michigan, uh, there was a news story about a haunted house attraction.

Th there was a scene, it was like, um, I think it was like a hospital scene and there were people under sheets on tables and things that were then going to spring out, you know, and scare people. And, uh, somebody went through this attraction being a wise guy, thinking he was gonna be silly and, and, and show off in front of his friends.

And he picked up a prop from the room, which happened to be an actual ax, which is really stupid, right. You should not have real weapons anywhere near these attractions. But anyway, there was a real ax there and this person picked up one of these acts and asked one of these, thinking that it was a dummy under the table and it was actually a person and that person got injured.

I don’t know if they got killed, they got injured or what, but this was, uh, this actually happened. You know, not only are there legends and stories about these haunted attractions that are so extreme and, you know, crazy stuff happens, but there are also stories and, and truths about actual accidents that happen in these places because of neglect.

Or people are just going through and trying to impress their friends and be, and be silly and, you know, cause harm. So, uh, there’s sort of both sides of this coin, and I think that this story plays off. 

Craig: Yeah, the, I mean, the movie addresses it directly there. I mean, there’s lots of, uh, uh, script like on the screen, especially in the first part of the movie.

It starts out with a quote that says, I’m not afraid of werewolves or vampires or haunted houses. I’m afraid of what real human beings due to other real human beings. Uh, it’s a quote from Walter John Williams. I don’t know who that is. That makes sense. But then another thing that they tell us, you know, we see on the screen in print is pressure to deliver the most extreme experience imaginable has led to a dramatic increase in accidents, injuries, and crimes.

And I imagine that that’s probably true. You know, I, I, I don’t know if it’s true or not, but they tell at least one story about a performer in a scene. , they were supposed to be hung by the neck. Um, somehow accidentally was really hung and nobody realized it, you know, until the end of the night. And I can imagine that happening.

We’ve talked about this before. We’ve talked about how Yeah. You know, 4th of July, if you’re gonna shoot somebody, do it on the 4th of July because Yeah, because yeah, it, same thing with Halloween. Like we watched a. Satan’s little helper years ago. Do you remember that? Where this. Where this, uh, crazy killer is going around killing all these people and then like setting up their bodies like Halloween displays and everybody just thinks it’s awesome, like so.

Mm-hmm. , I, I can imagine how something things like that could happen because you expect to see carnage, you expect to see bodies. Um, so if there is an accident where somebody is legitimately injured or killed, You might not give it much of a second thought, cuz that’s what you expect to see. Now, how often that actually happens?

I have no idea. But, uh, they play on that here. I don’t know, like, so the, the whole movie. Basically it’s just them traveling around in a sweet 

Todd: rv, , Oh, I would love this rv. Rv. I 

Craig: would live in that rv. 

Todd: We had a camper and it was this rv, but like, like in half, like cut it in half, , and that was ours. So it was way more cramped than this.

Oh God. That’s the whole time I was watching it. 

Craig: I was like, it’s, this RV is much nicer than any apartment I ever lived in in college. , , and bigger too

But anyway, it’s these five friends, you know, they’re traveling around in this sweet RV and they just keep going to different attractions and, and the places they go. I think they’re in Texas for most of the time. Seems like a, Yeah, we see them going through these haunted houses and they look like really good haunted houses.

One of the things that I liked and that they actually comment on is they tend to arrive early, like uh, when the sun is still out, and so they see. The preparation. Yeah. They see the things, you know, the, the, the haunts are pretty much set up, but you know, they see the performers getting into makeup and getting into costume and, you know, just standing out back of the place like smoking cigarettes and stuff.

And, and that’s, that was interesting to see. I feel like it would be really cool to kind of get to see the behind the scenes. Stuff. Uh, and they do get to see that. Yeah. But other than that, it’s just them going through the, the haunts and, and the haunts are good, and they are scary and throughout consistently.

Then there’s some weird stuff that’s going on. That ultimately culminates in the big finale, but really, it, it, it feels, I mean, they are filming it as though it’s a documentary, and so in many ways it, it feels like a documentary. It does like a fan made. Documentary. 

Todd: I would like a really cheap, you know, couple, like if you and I were to go out with a few of our friends and like with a camp quarter.

Yeah. Yeah. And it, I, the one thing I would say is it felt very legitimate. Like sometimes, you know, acting feels like acting, especially with actors. Who don’t have a lot of credits to their name, but uh, in this case it all felt quite real because Yeah. Well, the movie, Okay, so it’s Bobby, Mike, Zach, Jeff and Brandy.

There’s only one girl here, which I thought was kind of unusual. Uh, Bobby is Mike’s brother. He’s got the long hair. Mike is the dude running the camera half the time. He’s got a beard. Zach is sort of the leader of the operation. And then there’s Jeff. We don’t actually see too much of or hear too much of.

No. For most of it. . Yeah. 

Craig: No, and, and it kicked off. I had a hard time keeping 

Todd: track of. Yeah, me too. I, I had to constantly go back because it doesn’t, it doesn’t really matter, right. It’s just these, these five, it doesn 

Craig: doesn’t, they’re just friends and like you said, they seem real. Mm-hmm. , they seem like people I would be friends with.

My favorite one was Mike. They call him Mikey. He’s kind of a, a portly guy, but he also appears to be kind of the womanizer of the. Yeah, you know, the jokester and he’s funny. I really enjoyed him. And, uh, the fact that there is only the one woman and, and she, Brandy, whose girlfriend is she? She’s one of their, I can’t 

Todd: remember.

Craig: Zach, I think, I’m pretty sure. I think she’s Zach’s girlfriend and I think that that’s kind of why she’s there. . It was smart. I think for them to include at least one woman. This could have very easily been a buddy type thing, you know? Yeah. Uh, a bunch of guys going around. I think it was I smart to include one woman because.

Sadly, realistically, I think that women are probably more vulnerable in these types of situations. Yeah, I, I think it’s an opportunity for jerks and creeps to get handsy and, you know, say that it’s for the sake of the haunts or whatever, potentially. But it comes up here. I mean, she does get, it does touched, it does in ways that she doesn’t want that make her uncomfortable.

And there are times when she. Accidentally or, or somebody does it intentionally, she gets isolated and the threat just seems, you know, when the guys are in peril, I’m worried that they might get hurt or killed when the woman is in peril. I’m. More concerned. Does that make sense? Yeah. Does that sound 

Todd: super sexist?

No. It, No, it makes, it makes total sense because I think that the reality of life is that women are generally more, Im peril than women, than men are because men can be such SCU bags. Yeah. And, and men don’t even realize they’re being guzz bags. They don’t realize sometimes that they’re making women uncomfortable by making their, uh, locker room talk around them.

Yeah. They don’t understand that women feel threatened. That’s a little, little lesson we all need to teach our sons. 

Craig: Well, yes, absolutely. And especially, especially because she’s alone. You know, like if, if she had another woman or other women with her, I, you know, there’s, Right, there’s power in numbers, but she’s, she’s alone.

Um, which makes her even more vulnerable, 

Todd: I think. But let’s be clear. I mean, she’s completely comfortable, it seems around the guys she’s traveling with. 

Craig: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. You’re friends. Yeah. And they look out 

Todd: for her. Yeah. But I think the movie does a good job by, uh, you know, sort of doing a foreshadowing bit at the beginning where they, they show her later, we realize it’s her, but at the beginning, we haven’t been introduced to her.

A woman getting thrown into a trunk by some people in costume. Yeah. Get her in the trunk and these guys put her in there and, and, Clearly like, like sort of might maybe be drugged or something, or she’s been knocked out and she’s kind of coming to her senses and she’s in the trunk and she uhhuh, , uh, kind of wakes up.

Doesn’t really say anything. I think that was a good way to start out the movie because it gives us something to look forward to it get, it kind of makes us realize things are going to get serious. Later on. Yeah. And then it kick kicks us back to six days earlier. We’re in Tyler, Texas, we’re in a bar and we meet everyone.

And actually, what I really liked about this bit of the movie and, and as you said, sort of the whole movie, is that these guys, because they’re going on this journey to find the most extreme haunted house led by Zach, they’re at this bar and they just chat. What’s scary, what scares them. They talk about haunted houses and their experiences with haunted houses.

I’ve heard people talk about the ones that, like in 

Craig: New York, they zip tie you to a chair, stop the talking about bags over the head, That 

Todd: kind of thing. That’s a different story. It’s just like movies. It’s like, it’s the same thing. It’s changed jcs, Haunted house is in the sixties. You walk around and guys jumped out and said, Boo, that doesn’t 

Craig: cut it anymore.

When you were little going through haunted houses, you didn’t know if it was real or not, right? Element that, what that feels like. I wanna find it again. 

Todd: They talk about, uh, how do they recruit people to work this? And, and one theme that keeps coming up through the movie, which is so dead on that it’s kind of a little too obvious, is they keep bringing up how do they recruit people to work this thing?

They don’t do background checks on workers. There could be really creepy people working in these things. You know, they probably wouldn’t even know because they’re just these sort of, you know, one month off deal. and that keeps coming up again and again to the point where it gets hammered into you pretty early.

That this is gonna be a movie about haunted houses where less than savory people with less than savory intentions were hired to work there. So Right. That’s like the premise of the movie. Now, as you and I chatted about earlier, I just kind of wanna point out, I don’t really think this actually happens too much.

I mean, certainly, Right? Who knows things can happen, but the reality of the matter is there’s insurance , there’s, there’s liability, right? There’s all kinds of, yes. Of shit that the, the owners of these haunted houses that have thousands of people that go through them every single day have to keep an eye on, and there’s no way in how that they’re lackadaisical about who they hire and you know, their behavior in these things.

You know, one untoward thing, and they would get. I just wanna throw that out there. Right. . 

Craig: Well, and, and as you very much, you, you definitely should because you’re absolutely right. I, I think that the vast, vast, vast majority of these attractions are, are perfectly safe. But the movie makes me question if there is a subculture that I’m unaware of.

Mm-hmm. are there these underground places. That probably do not concern themselves with liability and whatnot. And I, and I honestly don’t know, I if they do exist, I am unaware of them, but, but theoretically, but that’s, theoretically it could be. Well, and, and that’s something that I, I give the movie credit for, it, it gives me a sense of unease.

Mm-hmm. that even though I would never anticipate that anything like this would happen. It could happen . You know what I mean? Uh, and, and I like, I like that in a, in a scary movie. I li that gets under my skin thinking this could happen. I don’t think it would, but it could. 

Todd: I mean, this is the thing, and it’s ripe territory for this, you know, as they’re in their RV now and they’re, they’re moot traveling.

We get a lot of footage of them chatting back and forth about it. And I think it’s interesting. I was not bored. Ah. M I actually really wasn’t bored by this movie. Maybe just because I’m interested in this, you know, the subject matter, but I wasn’t bored because they’re chatting back and forth about this.

And one thing that Zach constantly is, is talking about is where we’re going. There are no rules, there are no regulations. You know, we’re going to like the back waters of America, like Backwoods of Texas and these things, which once again, as I said earlier, like these haunted attractions are often set up by just the.

People, there is no formal regulation around it. You know, there’s just, uh, the local Kiwanis Club or whatever that sets up this thing. Yeah. Anybody theoretically could do it, start charging admission, Uhhuh, and uh, then they’re gone, you know, a week later. So that is, You know, ripe territory for this possibility.

So it, you’re right, it does put you on edge. And they talk about this openly. I feel like the only haunts I’ve ever been to are the ones at like 

Craig: theme parks or something like that, where the scariest thing is somebody running up to you while you’re waiting in line for a hot dog or something. 

Todd: I promise you, they’re not gonna be like that.

If we’re gonna be out in the country, there’s gonna be no rules, no regulations 

Craig: is always, I don’t know how this sounds like a good thing. I know this is always what you wish. There’s gonna be no. No regulations. You 

Todd: don’t even know where we’re going. However, it’s very clear that the first few haunted houses they come to are, you know, they’re just like, they’re full of people and, and there’s nothing untoward happening there except for.

Some creepy folks who keep 

Craig: popping up. That’s the thing. Like they are, I don’t know. They’re good, they’re good haunts. Um, but they’re fairly typical. Yeah. And it seems like you can kind of tell for the most part, who probably are the real people who just work at these places and the, the patrons of these places.

Um, cuz I do imagine that they just filmed these on real locations. I would. Yeah, but at every single one, there’s at least one person in costume that seems off. Yeah. And of course this is documentary style, so they’re just swinging the camera around and the camera will just catch these people who are usually standing very still and just staring at them from the very beginning.

Yeah. And. Ah, that is part of the movie that I don’t know, like, I don’t know if I can really get on board with this because yes, at every single attraction they are talking to people. And asking, what’s the most extreme haunt? Have you heard any rumors? And they’re getting little bits of information every now and again.

And eventually they hear about this, uh, group or or ha called blue skeleton or, or, or something like that. Yeah. Um, and they, and they keep getting little teeny, teeny tiny bits of information. Ultimately they end up encountering this group . Yeah. But it it seems like from the very beginning Yeah. This group is looking out is is watching them, has their eyes on them.

Yeah. And I suppose that it could be true because they are also frequenting chat rooms like, um, Like extreme HA chat rooms. So they have an online presence. Yeah, so maybe this group, whoever it is, our friends, our five people, maybe they caught this group’s attention via their online presence, but I don’t know, I found it a little hard to believe that they were watching the whole.

Todd: I did too. I, it’s super farfetched. We’ll get to the culmination of this later, but like, suffice it to say that at every attraction they go to, there’s some character who’s weird at one. It’s a clown at one. It’s a girl with like kind of a white mask on or 

Craig: whatever. A Yeah, like a porcelain doll kind of face.

Todd: Yeah. And so like, they just like, you know, the camera lingers on them and they seem off, and then you see them later. when you shouldn’t see them later, right? Because they’re literally traveling miles down the road to different attractions, right? So the idea is there are these. These weird people working at separate haunts, miles and miles away from each other that are somehow in cahoots.

Craig: Well see. And that’s not even what I thought. I just thought that they were following them like it. It’s this group, whoever they are, this extreme HA group and they’re following the, This 

Todd: one group of people. Yes. Group of five people. Yeah. Right. It’s. It’s ridiculous. It’s, it’s, it 

Craig: is spook. It is ridiculous, but it is spooky.

Yeah. You know when you can pick out those, S the ones that just don’t quite fit in to everything else. Like they stand out and you can pick them out. And at one point, you know, one of the guys at the, before they even go in, um, one of the guys goes to take a piss in the woods. Um, in this creepy guy, in a bunny suit, Like messes with him.

Yeah. But then ultimately just leaves him alone, which is 

Todd: typical for these things. Well, yeah. 

Craig: And you. Right? And, and at other times you see people in full costume, which I also thought was interesting. You know, getting in their faces or, or confronting them or, or block, you know, standing in the road and blocking their car.

And one of the things that I liked about that was I thought, you know, you can’t. Regardless of what the costume is, you cannot identify the person behind the costume. Right. They’re like completely anonymous. Yeah. And I thought that was creepy too. There was 

Todd: one scene that I really liked that I thought was really poignant, and that was, uh, their, they’re camping and it’s early on, but it’s, it’s, it’s when they’re outside of one of the haunts, but they decide to park.

Camper by the side of the road and they’re gonna sleep and they build little campfire and they’re all chatting. And there’s this dude, this, uh, it’s a, it’s a black guy who just kind of comes outta nowhere towards them from the woods. And, uh, you know, they’re chatting about this stuff. And then Bobby’s like talking to him about the haunts cuz he realizes he’s from this haunt, which I guess is up the street.

Uhhuh . Kind of in makeup and stuff. 

Craig: He says he lives in the woods. Like, I didn’t know what to make of this 

Todd: guy. No, it was a little weird, but Bobby says to him, Which haunt do you work at? The one down the road? Yeah. Yeah. We’re going there next, I think. Yeah. We see a bunch of kids in a lot of these haunts.

Cause no one’s calling social services on him. They’re like eight, nine years old. You know? It’s like hearing like backwood shit. There’s no rules. There’s none of that stuff. What you mean backwood? Like he’s offended, you know? And they don’t really know how to respond to that cuz they don’t wanna offend this guy.

You know, it, it just sort of sets this tone, right? Like, yeah, I don’t know. It’s like a mix, right? It’s a mix between unhinged people and also people who are upset, like sort of a deliverance vibe, I suppose. That was a clever scene. . They do zombie paintball, which is something I heard about. Never did, but Sounds like that was awesome.

Craig: I had never like, and, and I’ve seen this movie before and I completely forgot that part, but No, that was so cool. , right? That would be so much fun. It’s like, it’s just a hay, a hay ride where you get to shoot zombies with paintball guns. 

Todd: That’s awesome. . It’s so cool. That’s kind of one of 

Craig: the last. Fun things.

Mm. Because then they do, they get tipped off about this place and, and I think that they find out that it’s gonna be in Louisiana. So they start heading that way. They stop at a, a horror themed strip club. Oh God. It’s like, Which is 

Todd: like that. That was weird. That’s the most unappealing thing I can think of.

I do not wanna see. Yeah. If anyone’s gonna be shaking their boobs in my face. I don’t want them to be a zombie . No. I don’t want 

Craig: stuff on their face. That was kind of, . Um, but then they’re, they also get, somebody gives them like a clue that they have to go to this little bar in some hole in the wall town.

Um, and they go, and it’s the creepiest ass bar I’ve ever seen. Like apparently it’s a bar exclusively for people who work at haunts. Yeah. And so like, they’re in various stages of costume and, and makeup. And there’s this creepy ass clown that like dances around them and the girl brandy gets cornered in a bathroom by a couple of big guys who are messing with her.

It’s extremely messed up. That was a, a really, Uh huh. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s unbelievable , right? This, this place only exists in a horror movie. Yeah. I understand that. There are some rough bars in America, but 

Todd: come on, not this place. Yeah, 

Craig: it’s true. And then people start messing with them like pretty intensely.

Yeah. Um, 

Todd: they’re. They’re in their van. And, uh, we see, well, like you said earlier, there’s a, there’s a shot of, uh, you know, when they wake up and there’s banging on their van and St and then on their camper and stuff, and they wake up and they flip the headlights on, and they, they’re surrounded by people in costume, several of whom we’ve seen before from the haunt.

Right. I dunno. The lights go out and shit happens and whatnot, and then when the lights come on, nobody’s there. So we’re getting the sense that these people, like you said, are uniquely being terrorized, which. Very unrealistic, 

Craig: but whatever. At one point, I don’t know if it’s their cam, but the, the camera is being held by somebody who we don’t know who it is.

Yeah. Because it’s nighttime and everybody’s asleep and we see all of the five friends are sleeping, so we don’t know. Who the camera person is. Um, and it’s very creepy. 

Todd: We’ve seen this in another movie before, right? This whole idea that everybody’s sleeping, but somebody’s behind a camera in night vision and they’re filming everyone as they’re walking around and like poking 

at 

Craig: them.

All this now that you say, so, yeah, but I don’t know what it was. 

Todd: I don’t remember the movie, but yeah, we’ve seen this at least once 

Craig: before. Yeah. So yeah, so they’re, I mean, they’re really getting messed with at this point, like people beating on the camper. All kinds of weird stuff. But eventually they wake up one morning, there’s noise outside.

They go outside and they find a pumpkin and it has a note on it that says, Carve me. And so Zach, I think, cuts it open. And there’s an invitation inside the pumpkin from this blue skeleton group and it says, Meet us on Bourbon Street tonight. It’s Halloween now. Um, and they are, there are, uh, masks blue.

Skull masks for each of them left on the dashboard, , and so they go and they go to Bourbon Street again. You know, I can only imagine. I don’t know. I I would imagine they probably just filmed on location and planted a few people. Yeah. But yeah, they’re on Bourbon Street. They go up and down. They’re looking for blue skeleton folks.

They can’t find them. Eventually one of them, I don’t remember which one it was. It doesn’t matter. One of the. Sees somebody in a blue skeleton mask, uh, duck into an alley. Yeah. Um, and he, like an idiot, follows this guy down the alley. Like he’s calling for the other people to follow him, his friends to follow him, but they don’t hear.

And so he goes in there by himself and is confronted and surrounded by all of those creepy characters that we’ve seen 

Todd: before. Yeah. There’s like a girl, there’s a clown. There’s that rabbit from the. They’re all there. Yeah. Like all these people who over the last two weeks or whatever they’ve seen at these random haunts around have presumably been following them and scheming to corner this guy down an alley so that they can bag him.

Yeah, it’s, it’s dumb. And then , I think it’s dumb. And then, uh, I think that was Jeff, maybe, or Bobby. Anyway, Zach, I think it was Jeff. I don’t know. Yeah, Zach tries to call him. He gets a voicemail that says to meet them at a particular intersection in the woods so that they can finally go to Blue Skeleton, which is what Zach’s been trying to do this whole time, and sort of been half directed by this online group and half directed.

The people. He met some people in a haunt who were like, Oh, blue skeleton, 

Craig: blah, blah, blah. That was frustrating to me too because I feel like even at this point when one of their friends has been abducted, Zach is still like, Let’s go find blue 

Todd: skeleton. Oh, it’s just, 

Craig: yeah, it’s just, it’s just part of the thing.

This is what we, this is what we were looking for. It’s just part of, Dude, your friend got abducted, like. That’s serious. , like, this isn’t fun. This, and the, the other friends, you know, that’s, that’s their response too. They’re like, This isn’t cool. This isn’t fun. Yeah. But he’s still kind of into it. So they go, they meet them at the intersection, like somehow they’re texting Zach, I think the blue people are, and they’re like, Come out of the bus within 60 seconds.

Or your friend 

Todd: dies. Yeah, there’s a school bus there. That pulls up and, But they’re likes pull. Yeah. Come outta the RV in 60 seconds or your friend will die. And then there’s some argument that goes out. He approaches the bus. There’s an explosion which breaks the windows of the rv, and then two guys with the skull masks and clown masks come into the rv.

And now basically everybody’s being let outside with bags over their heads. One of the blue skeleton guys have picked up their. Remember, this is all found footage. So right now it seems to be someone from like Blue Skeleton who’s filming. And by the way, in, in, you know, the beginning of the, the whole beginning of the movie, uh, there was some text on the screen that said that this.

Was put together with footage from these guys, plus footage from the blue skeleton people or whatever. So they take the guys off the bus, but they leave brandy on there. It 

Craig: seems like they set them all, They split them all up and it seems like they kind of set them in like individual little haunted houses that maybe interconnect because eventually their paths 

Todd: cross.

Yeah. This is so disappointing. 

Craig: It was kind of disapp. Well, look, I didn’t know what was going on. Actually. What I was thinking was this, Is it like this is what they were looking for? This is the extreme experience they were looking for. Yeah. I just thought, oh, well, I, I guess it really is. You know, it’s just real, It’s a really extreme hot like, but.

That’s what I, I, at this point, I thought, Oh, it’s just a haunted house. 

Todd: It’s lame shit. I, I, I, I, this is where the movie fell apart from me. Brandy’s on this bus now, or whatever, and somebody says to her, Count to 30 seconds and remove your hood, and there’s gonna be a video camera sitting right next to you.

Pick it up. And record everything you see. You know, I’m thinking we’re getting into like saw type shit here, right? Yeah. They cut her ties and she does it. Nobody’s there. She gets off the bus. She approaches this shack, basically. And then we see the camera view of someone who I, I’m not sure who it is. It might be Mike.

It’s like he’s in a cabin or something similar. Might be the same one. Who knows? He’s like sort of wandering around. Then there’s somebody else with like a, all they have is a glow stick to like kind of light themselves. They might be in the same cabin, who knows? But then they eventually meet up with each other because, uh, someone, I’m not sure who it is, it might be Zach, sees Michael in a room.

So like the lights suddenly come on and there’s sort of a window, but it must be soundproof. Michael Springs up and he’s in this room and he’s banging around, and then, I don’t know, like Bobby gets stabbed or something, and then we go to Brandy, who gets put in the trunk of a car. I mean, it’s just like, here’s the deal.

The whole premise was set up, and this was the thing I was excited about was this lore of the most extreme, scary haunted house. That they’re looking for. Yeah. At the end of the day, they all just end up becoming abd. It’s not a haunted house they have to go through. They’re just kind of like, Well, I mean, 

Craig: they’re being minused a little bit.

They’re being maned a little bit, but it not, I don’t know. Somebody, somebody chases one of them. There’s like a creepy little girl. That was weird. Like, Like a child. Yeah. That was 

Todd: weird. But at the end of the day, They just like brandy gets thrown in a trunk and, and then they all get Yeah. They wake up in coffins.

She wakes up in a coffin, Mike’s in a coffin, and, and then, and then we just see from the outside they’re being buried alive. Which is horrifying, by the way. Right. But that’s it. , they, they all wake up. Yeah. We see that they’re being buried by the people who are wearing the masks that we saw. . It’s the end of the fucking movie

It’s not a haunted house. Like what? This whole blue skeleton haunted house thing. Like what? No. Oh God. Right. I was so disappointed. 

Craig: Sorry. What do these people get out of this? Like, are they just masochists who like to kill people? So they set up these elaborate things and follow people across states to take them through a lame, haunted house.

Like any, any of the other haunted houses that they visited throughout the movie were way better than the last one. So like, you didn’t even, you didn’t even get your 

Todd: money’s worth. Totally 

Craig: not, and then they just get buried . 

Todd: Look, we’ve seen haunted house, like haunted movies centered around haunted houses.

There was hell House llc, which was that underwater haunted house . What was the one, What was the one where again, people go to this random haunted house out in the middle of nowhere and they’re the only people there, and they’re going through rooms and things and like they get separated and stuff. I, What was that?

I don’t know. God, I don’t know. But anyway, we’ve seen great movies themed around haunted houses that like kind of were consistent and paid off. This movie just, I think, falls apart three quarters of the way through. And the reason I was on board with them was cuz it was a found footage movie and they were talking about something I loved and there was this authenticity.

Them visiting, like I actually enjoyed the footage of them going through these ostensibly real haunted houses. That was sort of fun for me. It kind of got me excited for Halloween. And then they’re talking about hitting this urban legend, haunted house that everybody’s, you know, rumored and they go there and it’s not even a haunted.

It’s just psycho people kidnapping them and then bearing them alive. It’s no fun. . 

Craig: Yeah, 

Todd: I know what you mean. It’s such a let down. It’s just like you set up a premise, man. You can’t just like do deliver on that premise. You just completely let me down. So I was super disappointed. 

Craig: That’s funny. You, you would probably be even more disappointed cuz you know there’s a sequel.

Todd: I heard I would and there is a 

Craig: sequel. Have you seen it? Yeah. Spoiler alert. It stars all the same people. So, Whoa, . I don’t remember how they explain it. I don’t remember how they explain it, but they’re all alive. 

Todd: Does it redeem this movie in some way? Some 

Craig: way? No. If this, uh, honestly, like this is the second time I’ve seen this movie and I remembered.

I thought I remembered liking it, but it did not hold up on a second viewing. I actually was kind of bored, but to be fair, I’ve seen it before. So there were no surprises. I knew what was going on. Um, I kind of vaguely remember liking the second one too. It’s bigger in scope. I feel like they probably had a bigger budget.

Um, but ultimately, It’s kind of the same movie, . Um, so yeah, if you didn’t care for this one, I, you can skip, uh, the sequel . I, I appreciated, you know, the effort, like you’re right, like it was a good idea. Um, it’s an interesting subject. It was cool to see kind of, I realize that this is fiction and that it was set up or whatever, but there’s a documentary element to it where you.

Get to see these real places that were really cool and, and it looked like a really fun environment with people really celebrating the season. And then of course, you know, just horror in general. That part of it was fun, the narrative. Was a little stupid . But, but that’s, but that’s also not to say that there weren’t creepy moments.

Those people in those costumes, which by the way were were good, scary costumes. Um, they were very menacing. And it, it was. Tense. I did feel tense in some of those moments. I didn’t need to see it a second time. I won’t watch it again, . But, you know, it’s, it’s not awful. I wouldn’t warn people away from it. Uh, there are things in it that I am glad to have seen, but not, not one of my favorites.

Todd: Well, here’s what I would say in summarization, in the spirit of getting you in the mood for Halloween, the first three quarter of this movie. If you just watch it as a kind of documentary and you just want to get stoked for haunted houses and see some other haunted houses and just kind of get in the mood of things and that like, it’s great.

I really enjoyed that part. I feel like this is something I could have gone out and done with my friends, right? But trying to make a narrative out of this that ultimately ends up in a horror movie, like it was a lame tack on that ultimately just felt stupid. , not satisfying. And, and then to find out. So 

Craig: thank you for your recommendation.

Patrons. 

Todd: Yeah, . . Just like watch the first three quarters and then don’t watch it again. And then like don’t, don’t expect a horror movie out of it. Just watch it as like a documentary and get to see some cool haunted houses and to find out there’s a sequel to this that picks up where this one left leaves off.

Like, I don’t even know, man. I and I don’t think maybe. I don’t think we’ll ever get to it cuz I’m so un interested. Yeah. . Yeah. 

Craig: It, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know unless we just run out, which I don’t see happening, but, uh, that’s not gonna happen. , I, I, I honestly, I, I don’t have as negative feelings about it as you do.

I think it’s okay. I think 

Todd: it’s fine. Well, I told you I was on board at, you know, three quarters of the way through. I was really into it for a little while. 

Craig: I’m not, I’m not mad about it. I’m not mad that I saw it, and I, and I, I honestly, in all sincerity, I appreciate the recommendation. Sure. Because if I hadn’t seen it, it would be a movie that I wanted to see.

So, uh, I do appreciate the recommendation. Thank you to Alicia and Heather that Yes. And it’s very much in the spirit of Halloween, and I love Halloween. It’s all good. 

Todd: All right, Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoy this one, please share with your friends. We have a couple more Halloween episodes coming your way this month, so stay tuned.

If you enjoy this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon. Go to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. You’re gonna find a lot of goodies on there, some mini sos that, uh, we record every month as well as a long interview with us and the completely unedited version of our phone calls that, uh, result.

Podcast. Happy Halloween to all of you. Until next time. I’m Todd –

Craig: And I’m Craig –

Todd: With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

It’s that time of year again!

Let’s kick off our first week of the Halloween season with a film about a horror festival that would be a dream come true for all fans…if they also weren’t being murdered. Our feelings about this horror comedy are a little uneven, but we nevertheless had a fun time watching AND discussing it. Have you seen this one?

Blood Fest (2018)

Episode 316, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, Craig, it’s that time of year again, the the time we love the most, . Yep. Halloween time, special time for our podcast. As many of our long time listeners know, we are coming at you this month with four Halloween-themed horror movie.

And, uh, we still have a lot to choose from. Starting this off was a movie that Craig selected. It is 2000 eighteens Blood Fest directed and written by Owen Eron, who also has a, a bit of a part in it. He’s more or less the villain. And I had never heard of this before. I’m kind of surprised because I think the concept of the movie, uh, is really, really cool.

Owen, as a writer and director, has not done much. He’s really just done a film called Follow in 2015, which I’m. Not familiar with, but seems to get some decent reviews. Uh, this movie and then something else called Mercy Black that followed it up. A couple things he’s written right now are in pre-production, but, uh, yeah, so, uh, but the cast, oh my God, the cast is just full of recognizable faces, especially now in the Marvel era.

So, yeah. Thank you for suggesting this. This is the first time I had seen it. What, what clued you into this 

Craig: title? I don’t know. I stumbled on it when I was looking around at stuff on streaming services and I watched it and that’s when I said We, we should do this . It’s a kind of a Halloween focus, but yeah, it’s, I mean, it mentions that it’s Halloween at the very beginning and at the very end, so Right.

Todd: It counts. Close enough. 

Craig: Yeah. I just thought that it was a cool concept and really kind of a love letter to horror fans. Oh yeah. 

Todd: And not just for horror. Well, generally speaking, if you’re a horror fan and you live in, in the United States, you’re probably a bit of a Halloween fan too. Yeah. And if you’re like a me, depending on where you live, they’re usually haunted houses going on, uh, at this time of year.

Um, I know that. In Kansas City, which was not too far from, uh, where I was living for quite a while. And you too, Craig. There are huge warehouses that are just professional haunted houses that, uh, Yeah. Spend all year kind of renovating and putting in new bits and pieces and animatronics and whatnot so that they can open up, um, in the middle of September through the end of October and make a boatload of cash.

And they’re so much fun to go through. And there was one, I, I took a trip with a friend of mine out to St. Louis. Um, which is, uh, not far from Kansas. I mean, they’re basically opposite sides of the state. And St. Louis has a place that kind of reminded me of the, of the blood festival. In this movie, it’s a haunted attraction that actually is, is outdoors and it’s set up more of like a, an experience like a theme park.

There are three or four different haunted houses. There’s a haunted hay ride kind of in the middle. Uh, to, to take you between them. It was almost like a Renaissance festival, , but for horror. And I thought that as I was watching this movie, I was thinking, God, at first, anyway, this looks like the coolest place ever.

Like it would be perfect to go, uh, to something like this, this time of year. Um, you know, except you don’t wanna get murdered. Uh, for real, right? But , even Florida, Halloween Horror Nights is very similar to this too, where they clear out the park Universal Studios, and that’s a blast too. So these kind of like attractions, you know, if you’re not in the US they might seem odd to you or, or you might not have this in your own country, but, This kind of attraction is definitely around this time of year, and that’s what this movie focuses on.

And so I thought it was a perfect choice for this time. Yeah, me 

Craig: too. And like you said, of course, you know, despite like the murdering part, Yeah. This, this festival, uh, looks like it would be so much fun because it’s. And homage to horror cinema. I, I mean, it’s, it’s called Blood Fest and, and it is a, a festival, of course, you know, we’ll introduce the characters and, and whatnot coming up, but it’s just a huge outdoor festival that’s divided into different areas that are all.

Themed 

Todd: Clown Town and like some kind of horror torture. Bill . It’s like Disneyland Adventure Land or something like that. Fantasy Land. 

Craig: Yeah. VA Camp Asylum, living dead land. Uh, and it’s just set out over this big outdoor area and, uh, it, it looks amazing. I mean, if you, the opening credits are over. A map of blood fest and it’s set up like Disneyland.

Just like Disneyland is set up in different themed areas. That’s what this is like. And it’s massive and there’s tons of people there and there’s tons of stuff going on and, and music and food, main states, all these different attractions. Yeah. I mean, it, it just, it looks, uh, amazing. But the concept of the movie, uh, well, and these different themed areas.

Are are just barely masked , you know, they right because of copyright. It can’t be something real and specific, but it’s obvious what they are. Like Hotter 10 is obviously like the teenage slasher Halloween type place and torture villa is, you know, the saw attraction. And it’s just a, a lot of fun. I mean, it’s.

It had me smiling and giddy throughout, even as these young people are being chased by murderous monsters and killers of different types. I was like, Oh man, this is so cool. Right, . 

Todd: Well, It starts off with a mom, Andous and, uh, son watching a, a horror movie. An old Bell Lago see black and white horror movie, and he’s clearly Halloween.

He’s dressed in a costume, They’re eating popcorn. They’re just really enjoying it. I, I just thought this was a beautiful family picture. Really? It was sweet. Really sweet. The dad pops in, says, I’m gonna duck out. You guys okay. Yeah. He leaves and then they have this nice little talk and, you know, this is something that we’ve touched.

Because it does come up in, I think most recently, I think our discussion on Salem’s Lot where there’s a kid who’s really into horror and horror movies, and the movie itself sort of addresses that. Like, why are you into this? You know, Should we be worried? This might be the first time that I’ve seen. You know, a parent and their child actively sitting down, enjoying horror together, and the mom explaining to the kid, Mom, 

Craig: why do we watch these movies?

Maybe because we’re not supposed to, and they’re fun. I thought these movies were scary. They are. It’s so scary that most people would close their eyes or 

Todd: run 

Craig: away, but we 

Todd: don’t. 

Craig: When the shadows are dark and the music is creepy. You know, you should close your eyes. Wait, take a peek

and laugh because now you know, you know what? Since you’re stronger than anything you’re 

Todd: afraid of, I, This might have been the first time I’ve ever seen. This kind of dynamic in a horror movie. Usually it’s the parents. I don’t understand why you’re into this garbage uhhuh, . Um, in this case it was really sweet, uh, supportive.

Like my parents were almost reluctantly at times, supportive of my, of my horror habit when I was a kid. So, uh, it, it really sets set up well. Dad leaves and, uh, mom goes to the kitchen for a glass of chocolate milk. But then we see this figure behind her who’s. You know, it’s, it’s your classic, almost to cliche.

There’s a lot of cliche moments in this film and it’s, Yeah, it’s a parody, you know, it’s a comedy as well. So, you know, this, this, this figure that kind of has a hooded, hooded, uh, rain slicker on or something and is holding a knife and has a mask and immediately. The kid hears some noise and he walks into the kitchen and sees mom’s legs, you know, behind the island, like she’s dead on the floor.

Mm-hmm. this killer is, is standing over her and, oh my God. I mean, my heart broke for this child immediately and then suddenly the dad jumps in with a gun and takes the kill her down in 10, in two seconds after that, we catch up with a kid as a teenager, and uh, interestingly, He’s in a room filled with horror stuff, like horror movie posters on the wall and masks and things like that.

And so he’s really, in a way, really taken his mom’s advice or feelings or whatever you wanna say, like that idea to heart where instead of this traumatizing him from horror movies or horror or anything like that whatsoever. Yeah, it seems to have horror, Seems to have been maybe a coping mechanism for him to face this, this childhood trauma that he, Yeah, and 

Craig: he’s a cute kid.

His name’s Dax. He’s played by a kid named Robbie K, who was really recognizable to me, the only, he’s been in quite a lot of stuff. Uh, I recognized him that Disney soap opera show once upon a time. Yeah, he played Peter Pan. He played Peter Pan on that. I watched that for a while and it was all right. And.

Kind of started to get silly, so I, uh, stopped. But he was on that. And you, like you said, he’s obsessed with who, He’s particularly obsessed with this fictional franchise, the Arbor Day franchise, which is hilarious. There really should be an Arbor Day franchise. I mean, why not? Right? ? 

Todd: It’s about the only holiday we haven’t covered.

You know, , right? 

Craig: His sister Jamie, you know. Gives him crap about wanting to go to this blood fest. Says it’s lame. And his dad, uh, his name is Dr. Conway. He’s played by Tate Donovan, who he, he’s pretty famous. He did a lot of stuff, uh, in the eighties 

Todd: and nineties. He was the voice of Hercules in the Disney cartoon.

Craig: Oh yeah. Uh, he did a stint on friends. He was around quite a bit in the eighties and nineties. You’ll recognize him, but his dad forbids him from going to Blood Fest and, and actually has found his wristband, which is like your ticket or what. And, and he, and he cuts it and, and his dad explains that he hates horror.

He’s like, These kinds of movies Drove my patient to kill your mother. Blood Fest is just a bunch of freaks, degenerate, celebrating mindless violence and Gore . And then it cuts to the ad for, uh, Blood F Blood Fest. Blood Fest is a gathering of freaks and degenerate, celebrating mindless violence and go

Todd: I I I I laugh so hard that bit . It’s Oh, in the eye of the beholder, right? , Yeah. Yeah. 

Craig: It was funny. And like in the ad says that at Blood Fest they’re gonna have the, the actor who played the. Arborist and they’re gonna have the cast of this new horror movie. Hell’s Nest and there’s gonna be Gamekeeper Karaoke, or no, there’s gonna be Karaoke with Zachary Levi, which is hilarious.

Zachary Levi has nothing to do with horror as far as I know, but, But fun, funny, None. And then we catch up with Dax, uh, you know, talking to his friends. He works at a video store, which I don’t know where this kid lives, right? I haven’t actually seen a video store in existence in probably 10, 15 years. I know, I know.

Which is sad. I love them. I would’ve loved to have worked in a video store as a 

Todd: teenager. I was really surprised to see him in a video store. To be honest. He’s hanging 

Craig: out there with, uh, his two friends, Crill, played by Jacob Balon, who is in all of the Marvel Spider-Man movies. And really any, any movie that Spider-Man is in, he’s usually in it because he is like Spider-Man’s best friend.

Yeah. And then, uh, girl friend Sam, uh, played by Elle, uh, Gabriel, who I didn’t recognize. She was in the last Airbender. I don’t know if she was in the live action one or a voice act. I don’t, I think she was in the 

Todd: live action one and then, and then most recently, the Tomorrow war, which I haven’t seen, but it it me there.

It’s got, what’s his name in it? Chris Pratt. Oh, right. 

Craig: And so he’s sad that he can’t go. And so they tell him that, uh, he should call their friend Ashley. Apparently their friend Ashley is an actress. Mm-hmm. , and she is in that movie that I mentioned before, like Hell’s Nest or whatever, and she’s gonna be at.

Blood fest. So maybe she can get Daks a ticket, any calls, any bags. And uh, she agrees. And on their way there they talk about horror rules. I mean, in a lot of ways it’s really formulaic. We, you know, in, in any movie that’s self-referential about horror, we always get this talk about rules, obviously. So it can be set up.

That either the horror movie that we’re watching is going to abide by those rules or they’re going to bend them in some way. Yeah, 

Todd: or, or following or being aware of the, The rules becomes intricate to the plot. Right? Like if they follow them, right. If they’re gonna be safe or something. And you get kind of tired of this after a while, I was kind of rolling my eyes 

Craig: at that.

It’s, Yeah, I mean, it’s kind of conventional. We’ve seen it done before. Mm-hmm. , uh, obviously probably most prominently in screen, but we’ve seen it done, uh, a bunch of times. But it’s not like they dwell on it for a long time. No, it is, you know, kind of casually talk about it for a little while and then they go to the festival and I have in my notes, the festival looks Awesome.

right. And Dax is like, this is gonna be the best night of my life. And they go in and, and, and the doors close behind them, like the gates, uh, close and lock, uh, behind them, which maybe should be a clue that this isn’t all on the up and up. Yeah. But it’s, They get in there. They will, they, Yeah. Sorry, I, I’m, I’m rushing cause I’m trying to get to the, like the exciting part.

What happens, they get in there and they almost immediately meet, um, Well they meet up. Ashley, the actress and her lame ass director friend Lyman Kane . He’s funny. He’s a, He’s like the Hollywood stereotype. 

Todd: He really is so full of himself, but probably, But the movie that he’s made is probably nothing. Yeah.

Oh, 

Craig: right, right. No, he’s a nobody. Which Ashley 

Todd: was like topless girl number. Five in , but she was really hoping to be topless girl. Number three. . Yeah. 

Craig: She’s funny. She’s, I did not recognize her at all, but the production company that made this movie, apparently it’s like a fledgling company. You know, these people built it up, you know, from the ground up and, and she has been a part of it from the beginning.

And I think that she’s been involved in every production they’ve 

Todd: done. Yeah. The production company’s Rooster Teeth and, um, I think some of our listeners might know exactly who they are. I was surprised to see the name come up on the screen cuz I didn’t really realize they were involved in movie production.

I think this is only their third one, but they’ve been around since the early two thousands with red versus blue. , are you familiar with that? It was one of the earlier internet kind of web series. No, I, I’m not, It wasn’t even on YouTube for a while. I mean, it was, it almost predates YouTube. They had taken Halo, the Game Halo and they used the game Halo.

They actually used like game footage and, you know, would position their own characters in the game, so they looked like they were talking to each other. Anyway, kind of do screen recording. Of Halo in order to, uh, tell the story. It’s called Mocking Mock, where you kind of use the video game in order to, you know, for cheap animation basically.

Sure. And that was a huge hit. And they did another thing, I think called. Laser team or laser something. And then now, like, I was surprised to see they’ve got a huge podcast like Network and they’ve got multiple shows and you know, this is one of the third movies that they’ve produced as well. So I was pretty shocked to see that there.

But yeah, you’re right. This woman, Ashley, like she’s, she’s, she’s been involved in a lot of their productions. I think I read, uh, that when she went to, went to college as a fan of theirs. And then when she graduated, just moved to. Headquarters and started working for them. It’s kind of cool . Yeah, 

Craig: it is. It is.

They meet the, uh, actor who, who played the arborist Daks approaches him and his name’s, uh, Roger Hinkley, and he’s a douche . He’s He’s disgruntled, Yeah. He’s so funny. Like, because he’s a, he’s a real. Actor. And it just so happens that his first gig was this horror movie, and then it became a successful franchise that he was like bound to, but like he , he hates it.

And he, he, he says he’s never even seen any of the movies he hates horror, makes him. Throw 

Todd: up and he thinks everyone’s stupid. Who watches it. I mean, he’s really quite disparaging for a guy who’s at this horror fest and we learned, you know, goes to comic book conventions and horror conventions and things.

Oh, I mean, right. 

Craig: He he must just be in it for the money. Yeah. Cuz he’s clearly not having any fun. Mm-hmm. . And then we get the big kickoff party, which looks amazing. There’s a huge stage. Um, and the stage is lined with these guys in these Cool. Pig masks and they’ve got chainsaws. And this game master who looks like a, like a ringleader, like a circus ringleader comes out

Yeah. And he’s, he’s loud and bombastic and he’s really getting the crowd pumped. But he talks about how. Horror has been neuter. Children, we have a problem. Horror is dead. We look around you. Our vampires, glitter. Our zombies have become soap up. Bra stars. Our slashers have grown doll and old. We put Freddy on a lunchbox.

We put Lovecraft in a collaring book. We have over consumed and overproduced, and we have taken what was forbidden, what was dangerous, and we have made it common. And so tonight they’re gonna make the horror movie. End all horror movies and he introduces this masked character to the stage, completely masked and like in red, leather comes out, you know, all back lit, looking like a rock star and, and the game.

Keeper says this is red. And he asks for volunteers and says, Uh, if you’re gonna volunteer so he can kill you. And the crowd cheers and they bring up these two beautiful girls and red just like slaughters them right there in front of everybody, cuts one of their throats cuts, the other ones abdomen open.

So their guts like fall out and then all hell breaks loose the pigs with the chainsaws. Attacking the crowd. Yeah. And at first people. At first people don’t know what’s going on. Like they think it’s part of the show, as I probably would to, Oh yeah. I wouldn’t know how they were doing it, but I, my gut would tell me, Oh, it’s part of the show.

That’s awesome. Until then, you take a chainsaw of the face. Yeah. . 

Todd: Then you’re distinctly. Becomes real 

Craig: and Yeah, and, and there’s lots, there’s lots of gore. There’s lots of kills right here in the beginning. Yeah. The, the effects are pretty good. I mean, there’s some pretty obvious cgi, but it’s not bad and it’s fun.

Um, so you forgive the quality a little bit because it’s so much fun. Yeah. But of course then people start to realize, you know, what’s really going on and everybody takes off running and that’s kind of where. You know that, that that’s basically then at that point, what the movie is, it’s our main character is trying to make their way, the front entrance is closed.

Do they know? So they’re gonna try to make their way to the back entrance. Ashley says she got lost coming in and came in through the back and somebody gave her a key card for the back door. Um, so they have to, you know, make their way through this whole. Festival, including getting through all of the different areas to get to the back to try to get out, and that’s what the movie is about.

Yeah, that’s 

Todd: basically it. I mean, for better or for worse, it escalates very quickly. You know? Yeah. It, the movie does not waste a lot of time in setup. You know, We get the backstory with the boy, We get. Okay. His dad, who’s this expert on horror now, and, and by the way, I don’t know if we mentioned this, but he was a, he’s a psychologist and like you said, it was his patient that killed the mom.

And, uh, it seems like he has built a bit of a career since that murder of, you know, releasing books. About this sort of thing. Anyway. Yeah, so, so we had the backstory with the dad and with the mom and the kid, and then he goes to the horror fest against his dad’s wishes, and then boom, everyone starts to get slaughtered, which is like a ridiculous concept.

I mean, it’s pretty out there. And I, I was definitely getting. Shades of cabin in the woods throughout this. I mean, I think absolutely. The movie was clearly inspired by it, uh, because, you know, at the end of the day, it’s this ringleader. He has a whole production team. There’s a tower. Yeah. Uh, there at the center of the park.

And up at the very top, he has two very nerdy and very, you know, straight faced, almost bored and joke. Assistants who are, you know, one’s, one’s looking at all the cameras and activating effects and things, and the other guy is editing footage together. So this, this guy’s actually making a movie. Out of all this.

Yeah, I mean it’s all, it’s, it’s pretty silly, but yeah. We’ll go with it. And, uh, and it’s also really horrifying. Well, right, 

Craig: And, and it, the, like you said, that tower is like the control center and they’re controlling these. People, I guess. Yeah. Uh, not, not the guests, but the people in their employee, like through electronic pulses and different weird stuff.

Like, so we’ve got Dax and his two friends, Sam and Crill, and then there’s Ashley and the douchey director, and they’re all together and the first place they end up is, uh, to the. Room or something. Uh, yeah, a storage room where they, you know, they talk, that’s when they figure out what they need to do to get to the back or whatever.

Yeah. But then when they leave, they end up in basically the night of the living dead. Right. Uh, 

Todd: cemetery. And so, you know, there’s a lot of questions going through your head and I think that the movie tries to sort of, uh, put those aside even though it’s quite silly as well, just before they end up there.

I think one of his assistants. The, the, the main producer, Anthony Walsh is his name. Yeah. Who also happens to be the writer director of the movie. The director, Uhhuh . He says one of, I don’t know, one of his assistants or his maintenance guy or somebody asked him, Where do you, where do you find people who are willing to just go out and murder all these others?

And he said, I make them. Well, basically it’s like a clockwork orange type, reverse clockwork orange type scenario where he takes people who are already broken. Like already mental patients or something, and then plays them the same movie for hours and hours and hours and hours. And he says, it turns out that with somebody whose mind is so susceptible that you play that for them and then that becomes their reality and they, they become that character or something in the movie.

And so apparently he’s been working for years gathering all this up and then in the night of living dead situation, There’s a funny scene where the douchey director guy, you know, is like, Guys, come on. We’ll cut through the cemetery. What do you really think that this guy put all these fake tombstones here?

Didn’t even put real tombstones. And what do you think? He buried a whole bunch of corpses. He’s gonna magically reanimate back to life, blah, blah, blah. And of course, as he says that a hand shoots up to the ground and grabs him in the crotch. Yeah. And by the way, he has taken the key card from Ashley. Yeah.

He decided he didn’t want these bozos to have it. Uh, he’ll keep it on himself. And so he’s pulled into the ground and sort of like, I don’t know, big blood bubble comes up. So I guess he’s dead. Uh, and with him the key card, but which Ashley doesn’t point out to anybody right away. Right. Uh, and so yeah, they cut through there and then they run to a cabin in the woods, Uhhuh, where they find.

The arborist. The 

Craig: arborist, his name is 

Todd: Hinkley Hinkley. It’s, it’s your classic, like evil dead cabin in the woods. But then, uh, they, they kind of confer in there and they realize, so I think one or two of those breaks in and they have to dispatch it. And when it falls, they notice that not only do they have, um, GoPros strapped to their chests, but there are electrodes attached to the hands and arms and legs.

And so that these are actual corpses. That through the use of electrical impulses. They’re controlling, which is a huge stretch. , she’s sure. I don’t know how you explain how these things are, like biting people and eating them. Like it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s rather silly. It is silly. What makes it even silly here is that he’s got a room full of gamers.

Who are controlling these people, , who they don’t realize that they think they’re just in a game with really, really great graphics and so, Right. You know, they’re seeing the footage from the cameras and thinking it’s part of the game and they’re controlling these zombies and one of them turns around and says, Hey, when do we get to control the victim?

Like soon enough. Okay. the movies. I don’t know if this. It’s not really social commentary, but it kind of is. Um, there’s something to be said here about desen, our desensitization, our sort of blase treatment of all this kind of stuff. Right. 

Craig: Well, I I, I don’t know if it’s so much social commentary as it is tongue in cheek ironic commentary, like, you make people watch enough horror movies.

Eventually they’ll. Track of reality and they’ll become psychotic themselves. Right? Like obviously that’s not true. Ah, the same thing, You know, the same thing with, uh, video games. You, you, you become so desensitized that somebody could have you killing real people and you wouldn’t even really notice it.

Mm-hmm. , I mean, these are the, these are the types of criticism. Horror movies and violent video games face in real life. And I think that the movie is very tongue and cheek kind of saying, Ha ha, ha. Yeah. Yeah. What if that really 

Todd: were true? Right. It’s that kind of commentary. It’s like a response to that, like, Yeah.

Right. Like you really think this would be is the case taking to its extreme. Yeah. 

Craig: Right here. Let me present it to you and show you how ridiculous that notion actually is. Mm-hmm. like this wouldn’t, It’s stupid. Yeah. But it’s funny in the movie, and there’s just lots, There’s lots of like self, I don’t know, not self-referential, but just like referential lines, like when they’re running towards the cabin, somebody says, George Romero, if you’re out there, save us

And somebody asks if you know about the zombies and asks if there are any. Walkers and he, he references the, the directors that, uh, you know, have directed the fast walking zombie movies. This movie is obviously made by people who know horror and who love horror. Yeah. And, and it, it’s made for us, you know, somebody like, My partner or my mom, they wouldn’t get all this.

They wouldn’t get it. They wouldn’t get all these references and that’s fine. I’m not that, I’m not disparaging them, it’s just not their cup of tea. But I get all of these references and I eat ’em up like it. It’s. It’s funny and clever, uh, to me, even the set pieces, the set piece of the cemetery looks great and you know exactly what it is and you know exactly what’s gonna happen.

Yeah. And then I, you know, the next place they go, uh, after they get away from the zombies, they go to Hotter high, which is, you know, It could be any high school from one of these teen slasher types of movies, but I know it’s familiar. Mm-hmm. , And they’re being chased by the arborist, which is hilarious.

Todd: Like . Oh, it gets really funny because. Cuz they’re with, right? The actor playing the arborist who apparently has never seen the movies. So they’re shouting stuff to him and he’s like, No help. So there’s a point at which they’re, they’re bar barricaded themselves into a classroom waiting for the arborist to come down the halls and Daks has to tell him his backstory cuz he’s got a plan.

He’s like, All right, so here’s the backstory in your movie. Like, here is what it is because the arborist is killing in revenge for his father’s murder. And so, His whole plan is that he’s going to get this actor to then play his father and approach the arborist and try to talk him down, say thank you so much, which, which he does.

It’s 

Craig: a direct rip off of, uh, Friday the 13th. It’s not even so much a rip off as it is homage. I don’t even remember which one it was, but there’s second one, second one. I don’t, There’s one where the final girl find. Uh, Mrs. Vor, he’s head mm-hmm. and Sweater, and she puts on Mrs. Vor, he’s sweater and pretends to be Pamela Vorge.

Mm-hmm. . And it works for a while. Just as it works here. They distract the arborist long enough to get what they need. And then, uh, 

Todd: The, the dad accidentally calls him by the wrong name, calls him Tommy instead of Timmy or something like that. And that, that’s what breaks the spell. And first of all, 

Craig: the movie is also really funny when they first get into the high school.

The only person in there is Zachary Levi playing himself . Like that’s, I’m not even Zachary Levi, like, I don’t even know. I don’t know. He was on some TV show for a while, I think. But he was also the voice of the male romantic lead in Disney’s. Rapunzel. Mm-hmm. or whatever that movie was called, the Rapunzel movie.

So it’s Tangled, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Tangled. And it’s so funny because Ashley is like obsessed with him and she can’t stop talking about it. They tracked us down. They, they hunted us. They were killing and eating my friends, like, I think about Flyn writer a lot. I mean a lot. It was the saddest, most terrifying thing I’ve ever witnessed.

Like, I couldn’t believe when Flinn Smolders at Rapunzel. I felt, I don’t know, humid. There’s this one girl. There was a girl that I loved. I actually was the love of my life and I didn’t have any, had a chance to tell her because we were trying to run to the school right before we got in the door. They grabbed her and they started to tear apart my hair’s.

Magical school, well sometimes magical. Okay, let’s focus. It made me laugh. I thought it was hilarious. I thought that was hilarious. I thought it was hilarious. That was hilarious. Somehow Crill. The fat kid gets separated from them while they’re in the high school and he ends up at this campfire in the woods, which is almost identical to that scene from Trick Art.

Treat another hall. Yes. Trick or Treat? Yes. Almost identical with these beautiful, uh, like Eastern European women seducing these guys. And obviously they’re vampires. And there’s some really funny dialogue there too, where the, the, the vampire who’s trying to seduce Crill explains how the game master would’ve gotten vampires, which is rural girls from Eastern Europe with promises of visas and.

High paying American jobs. Uh, yeah. I mean, America’s great for that. I, And then you would surgically sharpen their teeth and you would chemically stimulate their adrenal glands. So they produce abnormal amounts of thes. Mm-hmm. making them sexually iist. Gave them some virus that made them insatiable for blood

And meanwhile, you know, the other guys in the background are being slaughtered. Andry has no idea what’s going on. And eventually it comes up that he’s a virgin and, and she’s so. I don’t know. I’m not 

Todd: sure what I, I honestly don’t understand this dynamic. I think it’s that she’s 

Craig: so enchanted by his purity that she doesn’t want to corrupt him or something.

Oh. So he, he just leaves, um, and comes back to the high school and it’s actually him that kills the arborist with like a big flaming Oh, yes. Spike. Spike or something. That’s huh. So, okay. So then they’re through the slasher one. So they go downstairs and they end up in this creepy theater full of dolls, and then they end up in Ville, which is ob, which looks like the set or the back lot of saw.

Mm. Sam finds a, she had, she had kind of had this flirty moment with a gate worker when she first came in and she sees him in a saw trap. He’s got his hands, uh, stuck in these boxes and like, he’s like chained up, uh, sprawled up against a wall. Um, and he tricks her. Into taking his place, and then he takes 

Todd: off and in the meanwhile there’s a, there’s like a dummy and a wheelchair.

It’s like weird al’s parody of saw. It’s so funny, this dummy in this wheelchair that’s speaking in rhyme about the game and about the time and all that stuff. Uh, I laughed out loud at that bit too just because it was. It was so on the nose, . 

Craig: Yeah. I think it’s the same, uh, puppet from dead silence. Yeah.

That, that ventriloquist, uh, puppet. But yeah, I mean, I don’t know. They talk like it’s the, the clock is counting down eventually off camera Hinkley. takes her spot. That’s right. And he gets ripped apart, but not before he, He says his catch phrase that Dax has been begging him to say, but he’s refused to say all along.

Mm. Uh and Ashley, this, this part I thought was stupid, but Ashley and CRI end up locked in a shower room where she decides that it would be a good idea to take a shower. She’s 

Todd: like, I can’t die. Covered Infil. Yeah. And I thought that they were going somewhere cooler with this because. Like the idea is, is maybe if they resist the horror tropes that they’ll survive.

Right, Right. Yeah. And so like the notion that she was gonna take a shower, I’m thinking, Oh, now she’s gonna get murdered. You know? Right. Cuz she’s taking a shower, but it, it doesn’t kind of work that way. And it’s kind of oddly sappy. Yeah. And then she comes on to him because he, he admits that he just came to get laid because he’s a virgin and she’s like, Well, maybe I can make your dream come true.

And then we cut away from that. It was just really outta place. 

Craig: Yeah. I like, it. Seemed like they were going for something sweet. She’s been kind of the dumb bimbo up until this point. And it seemed like they were trying to make her a little bit, they were trying to flush out her character a little bit, I think.

Mm-hmm. . Um, but it just didn’t really work. Yeah. It was kind of cute that they had this little sweet moment, I guess, and, and, It’s heavily implied. I mean, implied doesn’t even cover. I cut away. They do have sex. They they have sex. We just don’t see it happen. We 

Todd: don’t see anything. We don’t even see him hastily buttoning up his pants or anything.

It’s like the next scene is just, now they’re there, fully closed, joined up with the other party. Right? So they have sex. So he’s no longer a virgin. In the meantime, the, the father, there’s a cut scene away to the dad all of a sudden who’s on his TV interview that he had talked about earlier, that the Dax, his father, and he’s having this, this conversation with them and he’s, again, he’s talking about how bad poor is and about how this blood fest, for example, is terrible.

And then, and then the interviewer says something that makes him think of his kids and somehow he gets uncomfortable. And I think he just sort of senses that maybe his son went after all and he just up and leaves a live interview. Right. And it looks like he’s gonna go to the park to try to find him.

And then they end up in clown town. Uh, I think they go up through a panel in the ceiling and they end up in the middle of like a ring, like a circus ring. And all of a sudden these creepy clowns. Peeking out over standup things that are surrounding them and hay bales and stuff like that. And they’re pretty freaky clowns.

Freaky They are. . It’s really funny. I mean, the tone of the movie is humorous. So when these clowns come in, yeah, they’re freaky looking, but you just have to laugh at just so many creepy clowns and. So many different ways coming up, but then something happens up in the 

Craig: tower, the containment system 

Todd: fails.

Yeah, it’s like Jurassic Park right now. They’re all loose, mixing up together, and so the director’s like, Well, that’s okay. Just let’s, let’s see where it goes. You know, if it was a zombie running through Clown town, then no big deal. He’s like, I 

Craig: love a ga genre, mash . So right before these clowns can attack the kids, these zombies bust in and start killing all the clowns.

Mm-hmm. And the, the zombies are still being controlled by the gamers. And, uh, the game master goes into the game room where all these gamers are playing. He’s like, You’re killing all my clowns. So, and he throws a grenade in there and blows up all the gamers. Oh 

Todd: God. Crazy. But I love that this bit where the Legman was a zombie and he was just as douchy as a zombie as he was in real life.

He’s got, he’s 

Craig: like, he’s vaping. He’s like a vaping zombie. It’s hilarious. It’s so 

Todd: funny. But at least he’s there. Yeah. And Ashley gets 

Craig: the key card from him. Yeah, 

Todd: exactly. But 

Craig: then he kills her. And I was, I was, I don’t know, I was kind of bummed. I guess I shouldn’t have expected that all of our main characters would make it, but um, as kind of ditzy as she was, I actually kind of liked her and so I was, I was kind of bummed that she got killed, but.

Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. What? I don’t know. What happens next? Then they make it, They, Oh, they, they get to the, they get to the 

Todd: door. Yeah. They’re there and Carell’s gonna start hacking the door. I love hacking in movies where he suddenly got some wires. He can just ally attach to this thing and Right. Stand there with his phone and press a bunch of buttons for a while, and then the Vampire girl shows up and that.

Distracts him. Uhhuh. . Suddenly he drops what he’s doing and he walks towards her for reasons I don’t quite understand. I guess he’s just supposed to be enamored with her or something. He just stupidly stands there and lets her talk to him for a while and then he lets it slip that he’s not a virgin anymore.

She says something about how, you know, SHEEO kind of admired his purity and whatever, and he is like, Oh, uh, um, about that. And he gets bit by her. And now the other guy, apparently the maintenance guy who kind of joined back up with them but is now, I guess, on their side. Mm-hmm. , he, I guess, can also hack a door , apparently he picks up the phone and starts hacking too.

Sam 

Craig: kills the vampire chick, and, and then the gate guy gets the door open and as soon as he opens the door, Dr. Con. Comes in and, and he, and he has a gun and the killer Red is there and has, Sam is like holding Sam and then out of nowhere they’re all just kind of standing there. And then Conway shoots.

The gate guy. Mm-hmm. Red removes their mask and it’s D’s sister Jamie. As it turns out, it’s Dr. Dr. Conway is the one behind all of this. I I, in a blink and you’d miss it. Conversation one of the people in the control tower had said to the Gamekeeper something about his partner. Yeah. If you were paying attention, you would know that there was somebody else, uh, behind all of this.

It turns out it’s Dr. Conway and he explains that the whole purpose of this, um, he’s killing horror to avenge his wife’s death. And he’s been planning it for years and he’s been planning it with, uh, Jamie. Jamie’s a part of it, the sister, and so he leaves and goes off to the control tower and Jamie tells Dax and Sam.

To get out because everybody there will die and they kind of are debating about whether or not they’re gonna leave. Well, in the meantime, um, somebody in the control tower realizes that the door is open and, and closes and locks it again, so they’re kind of stuck in there. And Dax gets kind of all sad sack and is resigned to die.

And, um, talks, you know, he is, you know, feeling sorry for himself about, you know, his mom and all that. Sam, who is his friend, just says,

What you and your dead.

And she basically says, We’ve come all this way and we’ve made it this far. If anybody can do this, we can do this, and we can get out of here alive. And so they’re all pumped up and Sam gets a chainsaw and they, you know, Get in this great big old truck and, uh, they, they head towards the control tower, huh?

Yeah. And that’s kind of where I guess, the final showdown takes place. It’s, it’s a little bit protracted. Yeah, it is. But whatever. It’s 

Todd: fine. Yeah. I mean, uh, there’s, there’s, there’s another wrinkle introduced by the time the dad gets up to the top. It has been revealed that everything’s kind of wired with explosives and they’re going to blow the whole place up kind of at the end.

But Walsh, the producer guy, mentioned something about the pulse. Well, we can do the pulse and. What is the pulse? The pulse turns out to be, uh, something attached to everybody’s wristband. Uh, to where he says, it turns out that if you send a certain electrical signal, whatever, through the body, it can send vibrations up into your brain and make you, I thought we were getting into scanners territory here.

I thought it was gonna make everybody’s head explode. But no, it just seems to make people go crazy like a rage 

Craig: virus. Turns them. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. And also the ability to just vomit incredible amounts of black bile out of their mouths. Uhhuh . 

Craig: So, well, the other thing that I thought was funny about this was this is actually Dr.

Conway’s experimental procedure that he had intended to use on his patients to calm their nerves. And he was like, Uh, but it, but it didn’t work. , like, he’s, he’s a terrible psychologist. . 

Todd: That’s an easy statement. Yeah. . 

Craig: But so they do it, they set off the pulse and it, it’s funny. You know, it does, it, it turns everybody into like these rage zombies, um, including the control tower workers.

Right. And Sam in the truck. It’s, it’s also even before that happens, you know, they’re, they’re driving this truck through, um, blood fest or whatever, and they see. All these different other conventions, like they see a scary nun and they see 

Todd: like a SoCo, kind of the ring 

Craig: kind of uhhuh, the Asian long black hair over their face, girls.

And it’s just funny that they, you know, squeezed all this stuff in. Yeah, every one is like an Easter egg, so every time you see one, or for me, every time I saw one it, it kind of brought a smile to my face just to see how many of ’em they could 

Todd: squeeze in the movie’s cram full of it and. This kind of cute moment where, you know, this thing pops up in on the passenger side.

And so Sam happens to have a chainsaw with her, which she like cuts the, the head off out the window and then another guy jumps up on the roof and Ds happens to have a machete with him. So he stabs it through the roof and kills it and they kind of look at each other and there’s almost a, a moment where it’s just like, Hey, this is actually pretty cool,

But you know, this also reminds me how this movie’s not gonna be for every. Because it is so chockful of references that I think a lot of the fun of the movie comes from that. Like if you’re not super familiar with horror or the horror conventions or all these other things, I mean, you’ll get what’s going on, but you might not get as much enjoyment out of it.

I made the mistake of watching Cabin in the Woods with my dad. Yeah. And my dad was just pissed off by the end of the movie. He was like, You just showed me the kind of movie I hate. It’s this horrible movie about people who just systematically murdering people. And then that’s when I realized like he doesn’t know the conventions, you know?

Right. All of the parity of this movie is lost. This one’s a lot sillier. Pink Cabin in the Woods is, But I think it’s gonna be very similar thing for people. Like, unless you really know or passingly familiar with a number of these genre conventions, you’re probably not gonna get as much out of it as the fan boys that we are.

Craig: Right. Then, Why would you even be watching this movie? Like ? 

Todd: There’s no other reason to watch this movie, honestly, . 

Craig: You’re right. Unless your stupid son made you watch it . Um, but yeah. Anyway, so, So Sam, Is also wearing the wristband. So she goes all ragy and tries to attack Ds, but she’s in her seatbelt, so she’s, she can’t get to him, which is funny.

Um, he crashes the truck into the control tower and knocks her out. But she, uh, wakes up and she attacks him and pukes black crap all over his face. 

Todd: But like projectile, vomits black crap all over his face from like inches away from his face. It’s, it’s like a total evil. reference. Real? Yeah. Oh, it’s 

Craig: funny.

I mean, we’ve seen, Yeah, we’ve seen it before. I mean, it, it’s, it’s typical of this type of thing, but he gets away, he gets upstairs, he confronts his dad, um, his dad says that, You know, we’re gonna get outta here. And d is like, What do you mean everybody’s gonna know you were behind this? He’s like, No, the game master guy has been filming everything and everybody thinks he’s behind it, so we’re just gonna blame it all on him.

So then he shoots the Game. Master Daks is standing up to him and, His dad can’t bring himself to kill Dax, but he thinks that it will be poetic if he blows them all up together. So like he’s gonna, you know, detonate these bombs that are gonna blow up the whole festival, including the tower, and they’ll all die together.

But before he can do that, Jamie, who is the red killer, spears him with one of her gnarly weapons, uh, and he falls out of the tower. This tower, by the way, is. 15 stories I like. It’s, it’s, it’s ridiculously 

Todd: tower. Yeah. . Yeah, . Really? 

Craig: I, And so he falls out and then zombie Sam comes up the elevator, elevator and attacks Dax And Jamie just very casually says, um, Why don’t you try the wristband

So he does, he, he cuts it, which apparently then she’s fine. And even though he’s covered in black vomit, they kiss. And this for, it’s silly, but I still thought it was funny. Uh, Dax says something to Jamie, like, Uh, you murdered a whole bunch of people tonight. And she’s like, Yeah, but I’m pretty sure I’ve learned my lesson

And then she says, Happy Halloween Big. Brother and rappels down the tower and drives away. Oh, hilarious. And like that’s, that’s the end. And then there’s this great credit song, which I don’t even remember how it goes, but it’s really funny. And then there, there’s a mid credit scene and an in credit scene.

In the mid credit scene, Dax and Sam are walking outside of the festival and they look back from the outside and they, they, I think, uh, Sam asks aloud, Do you think there are any survivors? And Dax is like, Well, there are probably some people who, who made it. And then the whole place blows up , and they’re like, Well, maybe not.

Guess not. . . And then there are more credits. And then the end credit scene is just the rubble, the gamekeeper’s hand emerges out of the rubble. Yeah. And uh, that’s the end. This is a silly movie. I don’t want anybody going in thinking that this is gonna be some kind of amazing horror masterpiece. Um, it’s not, but I thought it was.

Fun, and I’ve, I’ve watched it twice at this point and I pro, I’m not gonna watch it again this season, but come next Halloween season, uh, I think it’s a fun Halloween movie. Uh, it’s, it’s got. You know, really great homages. I, you know, you said you thought the humor fell a little flat in some places. I really didn’t.

I mean, it wasn’t all laugh out loud, but I was tickled by most of the humor, whether it be the references or the dialogue or whatever. And you know, it was, Just a good time. It’s not a masterpiece, but it was a good time to 

Todd: watch. Yeah. I mean, and it’s kind of a perfect Halloween movie really, because it’s just a tour to force of all of our favorite horror icons and Yeah.

And um, uh, tropes and things like that. So it’s, it’s fun in that way. And, and it’s a comedy a hundred percent. But yeah, I mean, for me as a, as a movie watching it, I was just a little disappointed at, I thought it was maybe, Maybe I sound like an old man when I say this, but sometimes movies can just get a little too silly for me when the comedy’s not that clever, that sophisticated.

It seems like there’s just a lot of really cheap and obvious jokes getting thrown in. It’s like watching, you know, it’s like the difference, It’s like watching Austin Powers. Yeah. You know, you’re getting in for it. It’s just gonna be a sight gag of minute. It’s just gonna be a bunch of super obvious kind of silly jokes, and that’s what most of this movie is.

But there were moments where I did, I like laughed out loud. There were other moments where I thought it was kind of going on for so long that I was a little ready for it to be. So, yeah, I mean, I, I, I feel a little more mixed about it as a whole just because we’ve seen some really clever horror comedies that just had me glued to the screen and had me really engaged and I just thought were clever and funny.

This movie, you know, it’s funny, it’s full of jokes and things. I just didn’t think it was as clever as a lot of the other stuff we’ve seen and. I think that made me lose a little bit of patience for it , you know, but, And also like there’s a difference between homage and just blatant ripping off. I loved all the homages.

I thought that the whole movie. In general was a pretty big rip off of, of Cabin In the Woods, which was a movie I didn’t really think you could really rip off because it’s just so, it’s just so unique, you know, and clever in its concept. It’s like a one and done kind of concept, but no, I guess you can do it again.

and this movie kind of did it in a, in a much, much sillier and goer way and also, Again, I don’t wanna pile criticisms on the movie, but I did feel like it, it felt a little cheap at times. Yeah, it, it’s got this big budget aspirations because it’s just taking us through this whirlwind of stuff and special effects.

But there are times in the special effects and even the sets, they look cheap. Uh, especially the end sequence with the dad in front of that window and the glass window. You don’t even really. See the dad fall out the window. It’s like they were purposely cutting around, having to actually just have a scene of him falling backwards through this silly looking window.

Yeah. So, you know, there, there were things like that, that I thought were, um, a little distracting. But overall, I mean, nothing, nothing else really wrong with this movie. It was a lot of fun, a lot of great homages, great Halloween film and, uh, yeah, full of some big stars. Big, big-ish stars. Uh, so. It’s not bad.

All right, well, uh, that is the first of our month of Halloween movies that we have coming for you this month. Uh, happy early Halloween to everyone. I hope you’re finding your own way to celebrate this special season. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend and if you, uh, are, are so inclined to check out our Patreon page, patreon.com/chainsaw podcast where you can support our podcast on a monthly basis and get access to a lot of really cool things.

Find us online, wherever we are. Just search two guys and a Chainsaw podcast, our Facebook page, the Twitter pages. I’ll leave us a message, let us know other Halloween movies we can put on our list. And until next time, I am Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Just before the holiday season (yes, of course we’re talking about Halloween), let’s revisit a George Romero 80’s classic about a man and his monkey. This isn’t the first time we’ve tackled the tricky subject of primal rage, but it’s definitely one of the most memorable. Most surprisingly, we couldn’t believe how well this film held up today. There are interesting things going on here, and we tackled nearly all of them. Enjoy!

Monkey Shines (1988)

Episode 314, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Craig: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Craig.

Todd: And I’m Todd.

Craig: Well, Todd and I have kind of been taking turns going back and forth who gets to pick the movie each week and uh, Todd is a little bit more meticulous about it. He puts up Poles on our Patreon and scans through our, uh, reviews.

And I’m more of a, just kinda whatever pops into my head kind of. And this week the movie that popped into my head was 1988’s Monkey Shines, directed by George Romero. 

Todd: We’ve been talking about doing this for a while. Yeah, 

Craig: that’s the thing. I don’t know what made me think about doing it now, but we have talked about it a couple times.

It’s come up in conversation and honestly, it just popped into my mind and I looked around to see if it was easily available. And it is, um, as of the recording of this episode, it is available to watch for free with ads on Tuby. And so I thought we’d give it a shot and, and I think. Mainly the reason that I wanted to do it is because I have fond memories of it, but I couldn’t really even pinpoint why I, I couldn’t remember why I liked it.

I just remembered liking it and it had been a really long time since I’d seen it, so I wanted to revisit it. Frankly, I didn’t even realize that this was a Romero 

Todd: film. Yeah. I forgot too. A hundred percent. 

Craig: Yeah. And it’s, you know, I think of Romero when I think of The Living Dead, but the truth is he’s done other stuff.

In fact, this movie, it didn’t remind me of, but it gave me shades. Didn’t we do a movie of his about a vampire? Uh, was it Martin or something like that? Martin, yeah. Was that Romero? 

Todd: It was good too. And it was Romero. You’re 

Craig: right. It was good. And I think that it too was sit in set in, uh, Pittsburgh. Isn’t that where this movie 

Todd: is set?

Mm-hmm. . Yeah, cuz I think he actually lives near there, so he tries to set his movies. In Pittsburgh, . 

Craig: and uh, like I said, the two movies are really not alike. Um, this was Romero’s second, like big studio film, second after Creepshow 2, and I think that it would be his last one for a while because he was a little bit disenchanted with the process.

Not necessarily so. The making of the film, which it seems like he had a lot of freedom on. But, uh, the editing, uh, of the film, the studio kind of came in and did some cuts that he wasn’t thrilled with. Uh, and so I think that after this, he kind of went back to doing independent stuff. But this is an interesting movie, uh, because it does feel like it’s got a budget.

It didn’t have a huge budget. Budget, I think like $7 million or something, which is more money than I’ll ever see. But as far as, you know, film budgets are concerned, not enormous, but it looks good. It looks sharp and clean and pretty mainstream. And I don’t know, I just, Huh, going back and watching it again.

I still really liked it and yeah, I, I don’t think that I’m in a minority necessarily, but for whatever reason it didn’t do well at the box office. But I think that subsequently it kind of made a name for itself in the home video release. Um, and there were some critics, not your favorite critic, but some critics who thought that it was actually.

Kind of smart and interesting and tackled some interesting issues. Uh, and, and I agree. Plus there’s a really cute monkey in it.

Todd: We talked about this movie I think a little bit before because we did another movie that came out the same year that also involves a monkey. Oh, please, please tell 

Craig: me. 

Todd: Primal Rage. , Yes. 

Craig: Primal Rage, which I, I really was so reminded of in, in this movie. Right? Because eventually main character gets the

Todd: There’s a lot actually between the two films. That’s surprisingly similar, but I guess it’s because if you’re, if you’ve devoted your time to making a movie about, um, an experimental monkey that kind of influences or kind of makes things go awry, you know, you’re gonna, you’re gonna have a lot of similarities.

There’s not a lot of different ways you can go. And I think even what we did, Primal Rage, we talked about how there was, around this time in the late eighties, this 1988 primal rage came out at the same year. So, I mean, certainly they were made around the same time. I can’t imagine. It’s gotta be a bit of a fluke.

Like I can’t imagine there were spies from one set going over trying to figure what the others were doing. Right. But I think, what was it, Project X. Which is about experimental monkeys and gorillas who were, um, enlisted by the military to fly planes into like suicide kamikazi type missions. And that started Matthew Br, Matthew Brodrick.

And it seemed like that was a sad movie. Gorillas in the midst. I, in the midst I think was around this time. I mean, there was just a whole, probably a bit of a like resurgence of fascination with monkeys and experimental. It’s easy to comment on nature and man, you know. Yeah. We kind of go to our evolutionary cousins, you know, and, uh, talk about them and you know, who’s the real, who’s the real primate, you know, that kind of thing.

Right. And, and so, uh, it’s ripe for that. And this movie delves into a little bit of that territory as well. Like primal rage. Like primal rage. I felt quite a bit of sympathy for the monkey in this movie. Really. Oh my, absolutely. I kind of fell in love with this little monkey too, and it adds a nice element to it.

I mean, the monkey goes bad, Right. 

Craig: But, but like I, I read some critics, uh, said this too, like, you fall in love with the monkey and even though the monkey ends up doing very bad things, ultimately the monkey is a victim too. Yes. And I, I think that the, uh, I, I think that there’s commentary here as there is in primal rage and these other things about when man tries to play God and mm-hmm.

and, uh, you know, the consequences of that and, and that, uh, it really can be detrimental to all involved in this case, including this cute little capuchin monkey. Yeah. 

Todd: And you know what, I’ve gotta say right off the bat, this movie was smarter than I remembered it being. Yeah. I think I watched it years after it came out, like on video or something, and high school maybe.

And I remembered. Being maybe even a little bored by the end of it. This time around, I was not bored, and I just saw layers and layers of subtext and really interesting things that Romero was doing with the story, with the characters, with the acting, and. God, really great footage of that monkey. I mean, that monkey Yeah.

Steals the show as an actor and just, you know, Romero does that. It’s so crazy from day one with Night of the Living Dead, most everything I’ve seen of his, he works hard. He’s, he’s got an agenda almost every single time. He wants his art to say something. I think he makes these movies that you could call exploitation films that are gory and that, you know, appeal to the horror crowd of like guts and blood and kind of crazy action and things like that.

But beneath it all, and what sets it apart from a lot of his copycats at the time and since is that he’s actually saying stuff here. He has clear messages that are coming through. I think quite skillful filmmaking and, you know, we talked about this with Martin about how Martin is this like kind of this relatively deep character study of this mm-hmm.

sort of vampire type guy. And we were both really moved by it, you know, and we’re like, how does, how has this movie kind of been so forgotten? Is this cuz it’s like this seventies almost Art house flick that Yeah. You have to have the patience for sitting down and watching a character study type movie. I feel like this movie kind of rode the line.

It does move a little slow even though it’s always moving forward. It never stops, I think, and just dwells in boring shit. But there are layers here that are fun to see and fun to unpack. And you’re like, the movie also had these weird things that just had me guessing the entire time and trying to make sense of, of it because it seems very straightforward.

and then it takes a few weird turns, and then it almost seems to veer a little bit into the supernatural. And then it almost seems to kind of pop into a little bit of magical realism at some point. Uh, what I’m talking about specifically is there are moments in this movie where the monkey and the guy that he bonds with the guy opens his mouth and is talking, or is saying things, and he’s got, he has monkey teeth.

Like, and I’m like, Where’s that coming from? Is, is he literally growing sort of canines up from both his jaw and the top of his head or, But then it goes away and I’m like, Okay. You know, like, Oh, okay. I mean, it’s not literally happening. This is like an impressionistic thing that I don’t know. You know, like how odd in this relatively mainstream, straightforward movie about man and his bunk that you get these little.

Things that make you kind of step up and go, Wait a second, what’s going on? 

Craig: Well, and and that particular detail is never addressed. Like never kidding it. We see it and it happens multiple times, but it’s unavoidable. Nobody. Talks about it, like it, it’s never mentioned. It just, we see it, it happens, but it’s never mentioned.

Yeah. It’s 

Todd: almost like sort of a like David lynching type thing, you know, where he just throws in this thing that I don’t think is meant to be taken literally, I don’t think. I’m not sure we’re literally 

Craig: supposed to, except, well, except for one time he bites his lip and it bleeds and it bleeds. I mean, I guess anybody could bite their own lip and make it bleed, but like they make a point of showing that it’s one of those canines or in sizes or whatever it is.

True. Um, but, but it’s also subtle enough that it had me questioning like, are his teeth always like that ? Right? Like, am I only noticing now because he’s kind of snarling subtly, like mm-hmm. , I don’t know. It, it was subtle but noticeable and, and yeah, definitely. Interesting. You know, and you, you talked. You know how the monkey really is, uh, a major star of the movie?

Definitely. Is it, It’s supposed to be a female monkey, but it was played primarily by a male monkey, which I guess is rare as they talk about in the movie. Male monkeys are typically more aggressive in territorial, and so pee 

Todd: every, all over, everything right to 

Craig: mark their territory. And so usually in filmmaking and as is the case in this movie where they are training, um, these monkeys to be service animals, which I guess is really a thing, Uh, I didn’t know that.

I mean, it makes sense. I mean, primates are, are intelligent. It makes sense. I, I think that, uh, I don’t know about capuchin monkeys. I mean, this one’s dangerous, but I don’t know how threatening they are in real life. But, um, it was. primarily by one monkey. They also had, uh, several, uh, live monkey doubles, and then there were a few puppets, one of which was animatronic, that were designed by Tom Sini.

Hmm. You know, is, is one of the most famous effects, uh, coordinators and designers in the industry. 

Todd: Still is longtime collaborator with George Romero as well. Yep. 

Craig: Yeah, the monkey does look great, and I guess post production on this took significantly longer than post production usually took for Romero because he shot more footage than he had ever shot before, because he wanted to make sure that he got all of the footage that he wanted to make.

You know, the monkey stuff look convincing and it, it does, 

Todd: it’s super convincing. Uhhuh , this might be the best of the Monkey Monkey movies I’ve ever seen. You know, when you, But I think that it 

Craig: rides a really fine line too. There are moments when the monkey is scary and menacing, but. It, you know, seconds after it’s kind of snarling, then you see it again.

And it’s, it’s so cute. Like, Yeah. Ugh. Even though it’s bad, you just kind of wanna snuggle it. But it’s, it’s, it’s adorable. And, and the jokes write themselves. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s the classic story of, uh, you know, a love story between a man and his monkey and, um, . Then, you know, he, he starts to get a little bit too, you know, obsessed with his monkey.

So he decides that he probably better settle down with his favorite monkey handler, but his monkey has other plans, so, 

Todd: I’m actually 

Craig: impressed that it took me that long to get to the monkey jokes. . 

Todd: Are we gonna talk about embedding the monkey? I mean, how are we, how far are we gonna go with this ? No. Um, I’m really impressed with the fact that it gets off with male nudity.

Like right off the bat I was like, Wow, this is definitely a Romero picture, yet he’s going mainstream and he doesn’t even seem to know it. It, it jumps right into the action, which is 

Craig: perfect. Well, there’s a disclaimer first that you know it, that basically just says, you know, there really is this place that trains these monkeys.

And don’t 

Todd: worry, this shit doesn’t actually happen. 

Craig: and, and, and, you know, we took the greatest of care and no monkeys were harmed, which I think it’s important to put out there. Yeah. You know? Right. You know, one would assume, hopefully, that in a mainstream film like this that there would be precautions taken because these are living animals.

You gotta be careful. So there’s, there’s a disclaimer. . And then there’s a really cool, it’s so simple, but a really cool title sequence with just like these kind of reverse negative red, uh, images of the monkey’s face. And then the title, Super, super simple, but I just thought it was really cool. Yeah. And then, yeah, it jumps, it jumps right in the, the main character’s name is Alan played by a guy named Jason, Big, b e g h e.

Mm-hmm. . He’s done stuff, mostly television. He’s still working in television. If he, if, if you’ve ever seen a show that has the word Chicago in it, he’s in it . Um,

but he’s this really good looking guy, super good looking, and he is an athlete and he wakes up in bed with his beautiful girlfriend, Linda. Um, and then, yeah, he, he tells her he is going for a run and then he stretches naked. And that was nice. Good looking guy. 

Todd: It is. And I was thinking, oh my God. Like George, you know, like he’s just trying to like subvert.

But, but actually it’s kind of important. It’s really important they show this. His physique is nice. Yeah. I don’t think it was a body double. He’s got a nice physique, he’s got muscles. This guy is an athlete and he’s won, uh, he won, he won medals in the Olympics or something, right? Something like that. I don’t know.

Craig: Marathon. There’s, there’s pictures and trophies 

Todd: and, but it’s, Profession. You know, it’s like his livelihood is as an athlete doing these things. The first, just, I don’t know, three minutes of the movie is establishing that fact quite well. cool shots of him like stretching. He’s nude and he’s stretching and you know, doing sit ups and things.

You see his muscles and stuff. He puts things on, he starts jogging down the street and the score is just this sweeping, beautiful Hollywood style orchestral score that’s just setting you up for a nice drama, romance, whatever. As he is jogging down the road. I just thought that was it. It, it provides a great contrast to what’s gonna happen next As he’s jogging, suddenly he gets hit by a car.

He gets hit by a truck. A truck. He something startles him. I think there’s a truck there. He, he gets whacked by a truck and the score follows it just like, it’s like a, almost like that feeling, but a lot more. Well, 

Craig: it’s Valic. He gets thrown up into the air in slow motion and does like a 360 turn in the air.

It’s, it looks 

Todd: great. It looks great and it sounds great. Like I was just blown away by the score at the very beginning. And uh, and yeah, he gets hit and then we immediately see a very, very young Stanley Tuchi , who is his doctor, operating on his back. And it’s just this scene of this guy laying down on the operating table and they tape up his back and it close up and Tuchi is cutting into his back and there’s blood there.

And I mean, it just, he gets all the elements that you would expect from George Mero, like right in, right from the beginning. You know, a little bit of. Gross cringy factor. There’s a little bit of the, what you might call exploited of nudity, but it wasn’t really, and, and a little bit of excitement and it immediately sets up what’s happened.

I just, 

Craig: I thought that the opening and, and it’s just, it’s minutes, it’s, you know, three, four minutes. Um, but I just thought that it was really good characterization because it establishes the fact that this guy’s life and personality is wrapped up in his physical body. And not to say necessarily that he’s vain.

I mean, he may be, but it’s not so much that. But the, the things that we see of him are his amazing physique. The fact that, you know, his livelihood potentially, In his physical prowess. Uh, there’s the indication, of course, obviously, of sexuality with him getting out of bed with this beautiful woman. All of this, it, it seems like that is who he is.

His person is very much defined by his body. And then three, four minutes in, that’s entirely taken away from him. Entirely. Yeah. He is, uh, paralyzed from the neck down. This actor, of course, is an able bodied person, but, uh, he, he plays a quadriplegic through the rest of the movie, which I was watching it thinking what a challenge that is, you know, because in acting.

So much is you have to take it, take everything into consideration, your voice, your, your face. But, but much of that for most of us is also our, our, our movement and, and our bodies. Um, and to have, to play a character and be denied the use of your entire body except for your face, that’s a challenge. And I think that this guy being an able bodied person, uh, steps up to that challenge pretty well.

I mean, one could also argue, all he has to do is sit still, but try to sit perfectly still for, well, I was 10 minutes, 

Todd: I was a hundred percent thinking that like, what a challenge it would be to not move a muscle, you know, uh, below your neck. Not, not a hand, a finger twitch or anything like that. I mean, that, that had to be a challenge, a technical challenge for the acting, you know, in and of itself.

It’s crazy. But, but he comes home from the hospital and, and it blows past what we later kind of figure out is quite a bit of time. Yeah. Like he’s clearly been in physical therapy. He’s been in the hospital for a while because immediately when he comes back, we’ve zone in on his girlfriend and his girlfriend is distracted, she’s upset.

She and her, his mother are there. They’re talking about this party that they’re throwing for his return. They’re, they’re preparing for it, but she is distraught and, and as people show up to the party, uh, the doctor comes in, they’re waiting for him to make his big arrival. The, um, His name is, uh, is Alan Wiseman, Alan Wiseman and Linda?

No, no. The doctor’s name is John Wiseman. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the guy’s name is Allen and his girlfriend is Linda. And you immediately know again, I was really, I was really impressed that, uh, as soon as Stanley Tuchi walks in the door and, and Alan hasn’t shown up yet, but the Dr. Wiseman has Stanley Tuchi. Oh, John, 

Craig: this is Dr.

Fry. My name is Esther Fry. Dr. Fry is one of Alan’s professors at the law school. And, um, we were just discussing will a be able to finish his studies physically? Yes. The question is will he 

Todd: want to, 

Craig: Oh, let’s not talk about this now. This is supposed to be a celebration. Yeah, some celebration. I’m back.

Charlie Cunningham. I’m Alan. Uh. I was Alan’s 

Todd: coach. I don’t, He walks over to Linda and he makes some eyes at her and he looks at her and they have a very brief exchange, but it’s extremely clear within seconds that while Alan has been in his recovery, the Doctor Wiseman and Linda have built, have had a relationship.

See, and I 

Craig: didn’t pick up on that right away. I I, I definitely picked up on the fact that she was out, like she was done and, and a Allen, you know, as soon as she greets him and she’s like, Oh, I should have visited more. And he’s like, No, it’s okay. He person hear well, you can tell, you can tell that he knows that she’s on her way.

Yeah. But they have this kind of, you know, coming home. Well, and I guess I should say, as terrible as that sounds, this is a life changing thing and, and this kind of thing. Yes. Sadly happens. Um, you can’t judge. She comes across as a bitch and, and it seems like a real bitch move to leave him in this really dark moment in his life.

But it’s life altering for her too. Yeah. 

Todd: Um, everybody’s suffers when things like this happen, you know? I mean, you can’t, you can’t, I I, I, I have some sympathy for her. I have a lot of sympathy for her now, the way it’s painted in the movie, like you said, she comes across as a bitch and the doctor who we don’t actually see too much of.

Mm-hmm. . He is confronted by. Alan’s friend Jeffrey later on who we see, um, we’ll talk about him in a second, but he gets confronted by him when he realizes that Linda and Dr. Wiseman have been having this relationship. He’s extremely judgemental. Well, well, 

Craig: well, I’ll be damned. How do we diagnose this one?

Wiseman Clinical asshole syndrome. Clinical rat. Clinical snake in the grass syndrome. Come on, Jeffrey. And. 

Todd: Your clinical cunt. I feel like the movie paints the doctor too, is a bit of an opportunistic douche bag. Oh yeah, definitely. Again, is that fair? Who knows? We don’t really have enough information to make a judgment, but, uh, 

Craig: yeah.

They even later in the movie, paints him as being potentially careless. Um mm-hmm. true. Again, we don’t know, you know, we’re not medical professionals. It, it could have been a, a very simple mistake as it turns out. I mean, there’s, I don’t see any sense in not saying it now. As it turns out, Alan had a congenital, uh, issue that was potentially just triggered by this accident.

Mm-hmm. and the initial Doctor Wiseman just assumed that it was the spinal fracture that had caused his paralysis, which is. I think a 

Todd: fair assumption. That’s fair assumption. Right? Right. I mean, they’re, they’re looking at the, I mean, they’re looking at the x-rays, they’re seeing that there’s been a sort of severing or something of his spinal cord or something right there at his neck.

He’s been in this accident. If you’ve, if this is, if he’s never been x-rayed before, you know, you’re not gonna know that you’re not, you’re just gonna see this accident caused it. So, uh, fact, 

Craig: but he ends up, he ends up seeing another doctor later who looks at it more closely and potentially finds this other issue.

Um, but again, again, you, I mean, it, it, I feel like they’re kind of painting these two as kind of villainous, but that’s also probably so that we don’t feel terrible for them when they get killed later. Cuz they do , they 

Todd: use it . Well, we quickly kind of get, um, like I said, Linda’s very distracted and upset at the party.

She’s like hiding some things and. All that. Like you said, Alan kind of understands that it’s over. I don’t think he knows at this point that she’s with the doctor. No. But, um, anyway, and they keep talking about Jeffrey. I, I can’t remember Linda calls, uh, for Jeffrey to come and, and he says he’s gonna come, but he doesn’t.

And then we get to introduce to his friend Jeffrey, who, who, uh, is a researcher at a lab at the local university. He instantly sets up a whole bunch of intrigue. I mean, the minute we meet him, he’s, he walks into his lab, he pulls out a syringe. He fills it up with this red, sinister red looking liquid. He injects himself with it, and then he takes out a, what we learn is a frozen human brain, but it.

From a child or a baby or something small. It must cause it’s really small, you know? And he talks, you know, they use the typical stuff like he’s, when he’s by himself, he either talks to himself or he talks into a tape recorder. So we kinda understand what’s happening. But he shaves a little bit of it off.

He boils it in something and then he injects that green looking liquid into this monkey. And so now we know Jeffrey is sort of the mad scientist of the movie, and he’s Allen’s friend and he comes later to visit Alan at his home late at. After the party, uh, after everybody’s left, and Alan says to Jeffrey, I know that, um, Linda, I can tell she’s dumping me.

You know, I really like the fact of it sets up this reality of how life changing this is for a person and the kinds of things that a. Sudden quadriplegic would have to go through. His mom is there and she’s there with clearly the best of intentions, but she’s watching old home movies of him and it seems to kind of bother him a little bit, you know?

Cuz obviously he’s quite able bodied in these things and they’re kind of reminiscing about when he was a kid. And his mom very quickly comes across as overbearing. And once again, I still feel sympathy for her. Absolutely. But 

Craig: she’s trying, 

Todd: She’s trying. But else also clear just like families are, that they have a history, you know?

And you can tell by later comments that he makes, especially in sort of the climax of the movie where he tells his mother often. He’s like, You’ve always been. You know, you’ve always been self-centered and overbearing and everything’s about you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So early in the movie, she’s trying and you feel sympathy for her, and you think he’s just sort of upset.

But then it becomes later very clear that they’re underlying tensions already here. Uh, and then at one point, again, we’re kind of jumping around, but at one point the mother. like, ends up like selling her house and moving in with him without even telling him, you know? Yeah. That’s, 

Craig: that’s later, right.

Without even telling him. And that’s a big deal. Um, but it is, and he’s also, the mother is also hired a personal nurse for him. Her name’s Maryanne. She’s, uh, played by Christine Forrest, who was, uh, Rome’s wife at the time and a period. Oh really? I didn’t realize that. And who appeared in several of his movies.

Um, I believe. And, and she, unlike the mom who you feel some sympathy for, cuz it seems like she real, you know, she’s, she’s a mother. She cares, she wants to help. Maryanne, the nurse is just kind of a witch from the beginning. She’s, 

Todd: you know what I have to say from the whole movie, Maryanne, the nurse, I felt was the most, uh, unbelievable aspect of this whole arrangement because she’s a healthcare provider.

Yeah. Right. And she’s a total douche bag. And, and she’s, 

Craig: she’s there. This, she knows what the job is. She’s caring for a quadriplegic that is gonna require a lot of attention. And, and she just acts like she’s put out the whole time, like, ah, again. Like, 

Todd: Well, like the long and short of it is like, Dude, she’s hired help.

If she is being such a bitch to you and you’re getting in all these arguments, you could fire her and bring somebody else in. Yeah. So this whole bit where, This tension that they set up between her and him. That’s my only real criticism of the, of the movie, is that came across as really, really false, you know?

Yeah. But they don’t have any Oh, oh, I agree. It, it’s not like she’s his sister or anything. Like he has some sort of like, obligation to keep her around. No. He even says it later, like, I’m paying you to help me and you’re being this way. Like, we’ll just fire her and get another person in. Like, it’s that easy.

Right. That was 

Craig: bothersome. You know, even in 1988 there was technology of, you know, amazing technology available for people, uh, who had physical disabilities. Quadriplegics, you know, he’s got, you know, a very sophisticated chair that he can maneuver using, uh, a, a device with his mouth and mm-hmm. . There are other things.

That he can, and really this technology, I’m sure was not available to just your average Joe, but like he’s got a whole kind of setup in his house. Whereas lights are automated, his curtains are automated. All he has to do is, you know, say certain commands and these things happen. But nonetheless, you see that this, I I, I can’t imagine how devastating it would be to go in one moment from being completely able bodied to then having to completely rely on others for just your day to day stuff.

And, Seeing him being bathed in a sling. Yeah. Either by Maryanne or his mother, You know, at, at one point it’s his mother and he’s like, Mom, just let Maryanne do this. It’s humiliating. Now, should it be humiliating? No. You know? Right. It’s not his fault that he needs this assistance, but my goodness, put yourself in that position.

You’re a grown man that has to be naked, which is as vulnerable as in front of your, can be in front of your mom. Yeah. And having your mom, you know, wash your body like, and the mom says, Oh, what? Like, I’ve never seen you naked before. Like, I get it, like, yeah, you bathed my little wiener when I was a baby.

But I don’t necessarily want you doing that now. Right. So you feel how depressed he is, which culminates in a suicide attempt. Um, he tries to kill himself, and, and Jeffrey saves him at, at the last minute. There’s also a side story with Jeffrey’s like nefarious boss, like demanding results on his.

experience and it’s all very shady and stupid. Well, it’s, and it’s stupid. I say stupid not it is stupid. Kind of whatever. I mean, it’s like I, I feel like it’s a commentary on the corruption of science for profit. And it is. I get it. 

Todd: It’s so shoehorned in there and this guy, Dean Burbage or whatever, he’s played by Steven Root and, and Steven Root, like has been all over everything.

He’s got it. You probably remember him most from, He’s the what, Milton, right? The red swing line stapler guy from office space. Oh yeah, Yeah. But I. Like the guy’s got over 270 IMDB credits to his name. It’s like insane. He’s been all over television movies. Uh, he’s that guy that everybody kind of knows his face, but you know, nobody probably knows his name.

And, and I felt like his character was really shoehorned in here and this whole aspect of it was really shoehorned in, and it, it’s, it’s a thread that just sort of gets dropped later, really, 

Craig: pretty much. And, and I, um, initially I think that there was supposed to be more to it. There was an alternate ending that he was more involved in.

Uh, but I ended up changing it 

Todd: if I’m not mistaken. I feel like I read somewhere that the original cut of the movie was like four hours long, right? Something like, Yeah, insane like that. So I’m sure there were a lot of threads. End up getting cut for time. And we’ve talked about this before. It’s, it’s a trope, right?

That universities are portrayed to these places where like there are these intense rivalries between professors or yeah. Renegade professors and the deans, you know, who are coming in and doing study of, like the fly two I think was a lot like that, right? Mm-hmm. and, and this guy just comes across as this utterly sinister like, dude who’s just taunting Jeffrey.

Like your, your research, like, when’s it gonna bear fruit? And you know, what are you doing? And money’s running out and time’s running out, then I’m gonna take over and I’m gonna do something. And we never really understand what that’s gonna be, but you know, it’s like, I laugh at that cuz you know, I used to work at a university and you know, you’re, you’re heavily associated with a university.

Like we know that this, Oh, there’s lots 

Craig: of camaraderie. I mean, I’m sure there is, there’s competition to some. 

Todd: There is something, but no, it doesn’t get to this degree. It doesn’t get this ridiculous, but, but he gets almost you. There’s, anyway, it’s a plot device to, 

Craig: Right. And I, I guess I, I’m not really even sure.

I mean, I, I think that Jeffrey’s motivated by wanting to, um, help his friend, but I think that he’s also motivated by kind of wanting to get his most promising work out of the lab. And so, yes, he, he takes this one, monkey number six, that has been responding the best to the human brain serum. And he first goes to a woman, uh, named Melanie, played by Kate McNeil, who trains Capuchin monkeys to be service animals.

And he says, You know, I’ve got this friend, he’s, uh, quadriplegic, uh, he was in an accident recently. This is new for him. He’s not doing well. So you train monkeys exclusively for quadriplegics. Well, there’s no time for anything else. Program’s gotten so popular. Well, as I, as I told you on the phone, I have a friend who I think would be just a terrific candidate for this sort of thing.

There are a lot of candidates. That’s the problem. All my monkeys are already assigned the homes. Well, how about if I were to donate a monkey? And she’s like, Well, uh, okay. So she does, and Jeffrey takes the monkey to Allen. And, and Melanie comes along too, because she’s gonna work with them together, you know, to get them acclimated to one another and, and train, you know, for specific needs for him and in his house and, and whatnot.

And Alan takes to the monkey right away, and he asks what her name is and Melanie’s like, well, her Gina name is, and it ends in Ella. She’s like, So I’ve been calling her Ella. So he names the monkey Ella. And then this, Okay, so we’re probably like 25 minutes in now. Uh, some critics criticize the movie for being too long, particularly in the first half.

I disagree because I too really liked these next 20, 25 minutes where it’s almost a cute little romantic comedy. Yeah. Between, uh, Alan and the monkey. It is, 

Todd: it’s cute. It’s cute. It is. And 

Craig: like the monkey is helping him, and they’re sweet. Like he likes the monkey, and the monkey likes him. And, but look, it’s 

Todd: just believable enough, right?

Because this guy previously was in the depths of despair and tried to kill himself. Of course, he’s gonna latch on to this animal that, you know, is, it’s a female whatever, but it’s showing him affection. He’s able to show it, you know, it, it does this thing where it go climbs up on his chest and hugs him around the neck almost immediately, you know?

Mm-hmm. . Um, it’s changing the batteries. And sh and Melanie riggs up his, um, It brings up a whole bunch of cool stuff. And I liked this aspect of the movie too because how often do we get to see, um, you know, quadriplegics people who are disabled being shown in a realistic and respectful way in film? And I feel that this movie does it.

And it’s interesting you kind of put yourself in his shoes. Like what would this life like, be like now if I was confined to a wheelchair, I couldn’t wash myself, I couldn’t move my arms, I couldn’t move my legs, and then I had this monkey come in and help me out. And it goes through great detail, I think, in showing all the little ways that the monkey can help out.

Yeah. Melanie Riggs up his wheelchair to put some lights on it and the, there’s a battery there and the monkey can change the battery and she riggs up his chair to dispense suites. Uh, or I think they’re marshmallow. For the monkey, whenever the monkey does something good. So he is got this little dispenser on there.

And then he has this device that’s very 1980s, you know, which is like a, it’s a, it’s a touch tone phone, but it has these cards, you know, they’re like punch cards, like old school punch cards and a slot in it. And he uses a laser pointer to point around and, and point to a particular card, which the monkey then knows to grab that one, slide it in the slot and hit a button and then it automatically dials.

And he uses this laser pointer to tell the monkey to pick this up and to touch that or whatever. And I thought, oh my god. So interesting. You know, the fact that the movie took the time to kind of get us into his head a little bit and bring us into his world, it made the, um, for me anyway, it made the relationship between him and his monkey much more believable, much more understandable.

And uh, you know, I just, I just instantly got it cuz I see what this guy’s gotta go through and now he has a helper. You know, and they have a bond. 

Craig: Yeah. Her abilities are a little far fetched. I had to chuckle a little when the monkey was cleaning the house, like , 

Todd: like wipe the window windows. But I don’t know, maybe they do that.

I don’t know. I, I don’t know what they do. It seemed very human right. 

Craig: And this is supposed to be a highly intelligent, like, not, not just an, again, primates are intelligent. Yes. But this is supposed to be an enhanced intelligence because of what 

Todd: Jeffrey’s been doing to it. Yes. 

Craig: So it doesn’t have to be entirely realistic, but it’s cute.

And not only is it cute, but it kind of restores some of his confidence and purpose. Mm. And he decides he’s gonna go back to school, you know, to, uh, finish up his studies and stuff. Then at some point, um, Jeffrey comes over and he’s still injecting Ella. And she doesn’t like it and she bites him. And then a, you know, all of this is, is is really sweet.

And there’s also, you can tell that there’s something beginning between Lan, Melanie and Maryanne or Melanie too. Mary. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , not Maryanne. Maryanne’s and nurse, um, . It’s very subtle at first. Uh, it’s not immediate, but you can see where it’s 

Todd: going. I mean, it’s a movie, you know, it’s gonna go there anyway.

Right, 

Craig: Right. , then Alan starts getting uncharacteristically agitated. Mm. And, and he has an argument with Maryanne. And after the argument with Maryanne Maryanne’s Bird, she has this bird that he’s never liked. He hasn’t liked it from the beginning. He says he doesn’t like birds in the house. He thinks they’re gross.

She’s like, 

Todd: Too bad I’m, I got a bird. 

Craig: Yeah. She doesn’t care. Jesus, will you take it easy with that thing? . If you’re gonna do a job, do it right. I am sick and tired of your insult, young man. I don’t know what’s gotten into you lately. Look, my butt off around here. Oh shit. 

Todd: This place is 

Craig: a pig side. You don’t change lsk.

You never fill your food dishes. This is our house. You have been hired to perform certain functions in it. And when you don’t perform those functions, we get pissed off. 

Todd: And 

Craig: just, Who is this way? You’re talking 

Todd: about 

Craig: me and Ella? After their little argument, the bird comes in and lands on his face and is like messing around on his face.

And of course he can’t do anything and, and 

Todd: pecks at his eye. My 

Craig: god. Yeah. And Ella’s in her cage. And so I don’t think at this point that she can do anything, but she’s agitated too. And so then Alan tells Maryanne when she comes in and gets the bird out very angrily, um, he tells her to get rid of the bird or else.

and then everybody goes to sleep and we see Ella get out of her cage. At this point, she can let herself out of her cage, which again, I thought was a little silly because this is this highly intelligent monkey, and it’s just like a one latch thing. Like she can easily just reach her arm out and pull this one latch to let herself out.

Yeah. But she, she, she kills the bird and leaves it in, uh, Maryanne versus 

Todd: Bird. Bird slippers. . 

Craig: And this starts a whole thing where we start seeing Ella’s point of view and she’s getting out of the house and running around outside. And Alan seems to not just sense, but almost be psychically experiencing it with her.

And at first he’s just kind of confused. I it’s maybe he thinks he’s dreaming or, or something, but what, That’s when the mom. Comes back. She, uh, he thinks at first, just for a visit until Maryanne screams at him, I, Oh, I just thought it was hilarious. I could have watched it on repeat like five times You killed my B

And he looks at her and just snes it. F. He deserve to die. He’s becoming a jerk. He’s getting the primal rage. . Yeah, 

Todd: exactly. This is what we know about when monkeys and humans combined, we’ve had that show us that this is what happens. Right? He, he’s, he’s just becoming, uh, a more agitated, more pissed off.

But also it gets weird. Like it’s weird that the movie went here. I guess the movie’s based on a novel, and so these things usually play out better in novels. I thought the movie made an odd turn here where it, I thought this was gonna be, and this is what I remembered about the movie from having seen it before years ago.

I thought the movie was quite a standard story about sort of this super nice monkey that, you know, things kind of just get outta control with his relationship with his handler. Mm-hmm. . But the movie clearly is saying there is a sort of psychic connection between the monkey and Allen that develops mm-hmm.

And that’s, I don’t know, I was a little disappointed at that aspect of it. But it’s a, it’s a movie. You go with it. Right. 

Craig: I think it would’ve been better if it were further developed. You know, I don’t know. How are they gonna logically explain it? You can’t, They just. and I, I’m not saying that I doubt that something like that is possible that through medication or whatever, that psychic connections can be established.

I’m not saying that I don’t, that I think that that’s impossible. It just seems kind of improbable here and it happens so quickly. Yeah, and it’s, and it’s unexplained other than, Oh, well, it must be a result of the medicine, I 

Todd: guess injecting the medicine and all that, and, and then it gets a little crazy later when, when Jeffrey realizes this, and so he kind of goes to extremes and starts kind of experimenting with the other monkeys, like, Can I make this happen again?

Jeffrey comes over and I like Jeffrey’s character too, because he’s also complex. Like you said earlier, you get the sense he really cares for his friend. He’s not like this, Hey, hey, I’m gonna take advantage of this situation and like, insert this rogue monkey in here and secretly perform these experiments.

Like, no, he sought this woman out. He volunteered his monkey for it. He, he faked its death for the dean. You know, so he could get it out of his lab and in there. So there would be no question to ask. But also, like you said, he’s still a scientist and he wants to keep his research going. And so when he’s over at Alan’s plays, he’ll kind of sneak away and inject the monkey.

And uh, Jeffrey goes over and investigates, because Alan says to him, he says, I have these, I’m having these weird monkey cam premonitions, , you know? Yeah. These weird dreams. And so Jeffrey goes up to the attic, he investigates, he finds a broken screen, and he’s talking to himself was like, Oh, there sneaky Ella, you’re getting out.

After all Alan is right. But he goes downstairs and he lies to a 

Craig: about it. I didn’t really understand that. The only reason that I could imagine why he doesn’t tell him the truth is because both Alan and Melanie were really adamant about the fact that they didn’t want like a lab monkey that had been tested on.

Todd: Because he lied. Yeah, he lied. He told everybody. He told Melanie, he told Alan, he told all these people that this monkey has had nothing weird done to it. He specifically said that, so he outright lied to them about that. So, But he’s not a terrible person. 

Craig: No. He has good intentions in terms of what he’s trying to do for his friend.

Does it potentially benefit him to Yeah. Mm-hmm. , but you know, he is trying to help out his friend. This comes to a head when Alan. Finds out that his ex Linda is sleeping with the doctor. And that’s also after he and Melanie, because Alan see, he, his finger moves and he sees it. So Melanie takes him to the doctor.

That’s when this new doctor tells him about this congenital thing. Alan gets really mad. He’s like, So you’re saying that Wiseman, if, if, if he had seen this, he could have maybe prevented me being paralyzed And the doctor’s like, Well, maybe, uh, I don’t know. There’s also potential. He’s like, Well, can, can we fix it?

And the doctor says, He maybe, But spinal surgery is super, super risky. So in order to justify the risk, I would need to be able to see that you can voluntary, voluntarily move something, anything. Mm. A finger, a toe, anything. And so he leaves with Melanie and she is shocked because rather than being excited and hopeful, he’s just pissed.

Like, Yeah, super. Angry, aggressively pissed at the doctor, and when he goes home, he tries to call the doctor, I guess, to chew his ass, but the doctor is not there. He’s off on a trip, and the nurse gives Alan the number where he can be reached and it’s Linda’s number. Mm-hmm. . And so Alan calls Linda’s number.

The doctor picks up. Alan just hangs up, but he’s seething in. 

Todd: That’s when he bites his lip. Yeah. 

Craig: Yes, Yes. 

Todd: With his big teeth. And then, And the monkey climbs up on him and licks the blood off. That’s, Yes. That’s an interesting scene. Right. And 

Craig: it, Right. It almost seemed like he was so enraged that he didn’t even notice.

Mm-hmm. , you know, like he’s just kind of staring off into space. Very strange. But that night Monkey POV shot, we see the monkey go into a cabin where presumably we just see legs, but presumably it’s Wiseman and Linda. Having sex. And then we just see flames. And in the morning Alan’s mom gets a phone call and she’s like, Oh no, how will I tell Alan?

And then Alan wheels himself in and she says, Something terrible has happened. There’s been, And Alan says, A fire. And so he knows . He, he, he has, Cause he saw it, he saw it in his, in his mind, in his dream. So he knows what’s going on. So he immediately calls Jeffrey and says, Get this monkey out of here. Yeah.

I don’t know what’s going on. But it’s bad. She’s bringing out something terrible in me. Bad things are happening. Get this monkey outta here. I mean, 

Todd: it’s impressive. He picks up on it right away. He knows what’s going on, and I loved the scene. He says, It’s ugly, it’s vicious, sinful anger. It’s a sin. I’m getting a desire to sin.

Jeff and Ellen has picked up on that, and Jeffrey agrees to take her back to the lab. And as he takes her out, Allen says to him, Do not bring her back. And the monkey. Is like 

Craig: screaming. It was heart wrenching. He’s dragging it out on a leash and it’s trying desperately to stay. Ugh. No, it, it likes it, you know?

Oh God. Yeah. Again, you feel bad for the monkey, The monkeys just doing what it, it’s it’s supposed to. Trying, Yeah. Yeah. It’s trying to do what it thinks Alan wants it to do. It’s, it’s serving him, um, it doesn’t know any better. And then to tear it away, I mean, it just, Really sad. I don’t know what, what happens at this point.

He does, he gets it back to the lab. Ella, at this point, like wants more injections. 

Todd: Yeah. Suddenly Ella wants the injections, didn’t want them before, so that’s odd. 

Craig: Also, as soon as the monkey’s gone, um, Melanie starts to comfort a and she’s like, Why don’t you stay at my house this weekend? He’s like, Oh, I don’t know.

And she’s like, Well, I’ve got the whole setup in the barn cuz I trained the monkeys there. I think you’ll be comfortable . 

Todd: And I, I mean, of course in my head I’m thinking this is what we get. Oh, it is gonna be a sexy, isn’t it? And and in my head I was thinking, well, I guess she could sit on his face.

Craig: I didn’t go there. I don’t, Well, I mean, the movie does. I, I, I didn’t immediately go there, but, um, I didn’t know she, you know, he, all he can do is move his head. So when she’s like adjusting his chair, he kind of nozzles into her bom innocently, you know, there’s not a whole lot he can do to show affection and she kind of recoils it first, but then she starts taking off her clothes.

Yeah. And the next thing you see is, is them in bed. Look, and now again, I’m no doctor. I don’t know how this works. Uh, I don’t know if certain parts of the anatomy continue to function, uh, but in this case it doesn’t seem so. But there are other things people can do. , 

Todd: I look, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna come right out and say, I thought this was hot.

And I was like, Really? It was kind of hot. I was really impressed. And you know, I was reading the trivia on imdb and apparently this is one of the very few, if not only portrayals of a quadriplegic having sex on screen and uhhuh. That’s so nice. Like you, Thank you. Georgia Merril. There’re still people.

You’re right. You know, take us into this world. The now us understand how people deal with these things and force us to confront them and think about them. And my God, it doesn’t seem sad at all. It’s, it’s quite hot, you know, And she’s, she’s having a good time. 

Craig: Supposedly it was initially, it, it’s pretty graphic anyway.

It is supposedly, it was initially significantly more graphic and they ended up cutting it down . I, I think that the producer wanted it even more graphic and Romero didn’t, and, and the producer ended. Saying he was right. You know, the way that it is, is, is good enough. 

Todd: We don’t need to see every, It’s not a porno.

We don’t need to see everything. But yeah, it’s pretty, it’s pretty 

Craig: cool. But, so, okay, so obviously they have this relationship. Now he’s feeling much better. But eventually Ella Escapes, um, and immediately goes back to his house where he’s with his mom Now, it, it, it just happens to be a moment where he’s trying to apologize to his mother for having been so angry and aggressive.

Of course, he can’t really explain to her what was going on. Cause I don’t think that she would either believe or understand it, but he’s trying to apologize. But as soon as Ella’s near, he gets immediately aggressive and angry again and recognizes. He’s like, Oh my God, she’s here, , she’s here. Yeah. Call Jeffrey.

Get somewhere safe. , the mother is just angry and upset, and she’s slapped 

Todd: a bunch of times. It’s, yeah, 

Craig: it’s like, but, but it’s not unfair. He’s being very mean. Um, and, and I think that his, uh, acting is pretty good, except for that his primal rage manifest as Robert DeNiro. Sometimes , like, he turns into Robert Janero all of a sudden with the squinty eyes and stuff.

But he knows that s there, and so like, he’s screaming to his mom, like, Lock yourself in your room. Lock yourself in your room. But I. , she takes, she draws herself a bath and is like crying in the bath. Um, and Ella throws the plugged in hair dryer in the bath and, and kills her. 

Todd: Yeah. You know, I mean, again, suspension of disbelief, but I get it.

Okay. The monkey’s trying to sort of do what he thinks, what she thinks is right to take revenge on the people that Alan is angry at, at the same time, how does this monkey know how electricity works? ? I dunno. It bothered me a little bit, but, uh, yeah. 

Craig: Anyway, I don’t remember. He gets in touch with Jeffrey somehow, and Jeffrey comes over and Jeffrey’s got a couple, uh, vials of whatever they used to put in poison down.

I don’t 

Todd: poison. Yeah. It’s just a chase. 

Craig: Yeah. It, it, it, it becomes a chase. It’s, it’s, it’s very reminiscent of, uh, pet cemetery with g um, Oh yeah. You know, this, this little. Being, you know, kind of outsmarting the grown man, and it’s well done. Like it, it’s, it’s super well choreographed and staged with the monkey.

It’s really believable. Some of the, some of the direct combat is that whole Chucky kind of like, why can’t you fight this little monkey? You know, like, it’s, it’s, it’s much, much smaller than you. Some of that seems a little far fetched, but mostly it’s just about the monkey kind of getting away. Yeah, yeah.

And, and getting other stuff like, and eventually it does, it gets the vial. and, uh, it injects Jeffrey. Yeah, 

Todd: so Jeff is poisoned and 

Craig: he’s so disoriented by the poison that he doesn’t even, you know, Alan is begging him to call the hospital, call the police call. He’s like, No, all I, I just have to drive myself to the hospital, which obviously he can’t.

And so he falls over and he’s dead. Somehow Allen has been able to dial Melanie. He wasn’t able to talk to her, but he was able to dial her and she heard stuff going on in the background, and so she shows up and then the monkey is menacing her. 

Todd: Well, the monkey’s smart. It, you know? Oh yeah. This is, this is like vibes of, I don’t know, like misery, like wait until dark.

It’s like you have a person who is disabled in some way, who against all odds, has to confront this devious creature and use its wits to, you know, overcome the physical disability. It has it’s inability to move. It’s inability to see whatever. In his case, he’s in a wheelchair that’s electric and all he can do is move his head.

And this monkey can go and do whatever he wants. And this monkey’s been trained and he knows the house. And so, you know, Alan is like trying to open the front door and he’s calling out to his system, you know, number 10 or whatever, which opens the front door. And the monkey just cuts the. And then runs over and closes the door and he tries to, you know, make a phone call and the monkey goes over and like bites the phone cord away.

And I mean, I was really on the edge of my seat during this full sequence thinking how in the hell, I have no idea how this guy’s gonna get out of this. Like, no idea that odds are completely 

Craig: stacked against him. Right. And well, and he, he does something to Melanie or the monkey does, excuse me, Trips were off.

And she trips are episode and, and she stands up and says, Uh, okay, a was that you were the monkey because Alan feels responsible for all this. And he’s like, That was her. She did it. And Melanie is like, That’s that’s right. It’s not you, you’re not doing this. It’s her. But then she gets knocked out and the monkey is menacing her with that other.

Uh, syringe that was creepiest, rubbing it on her face and near her eyes and stuff. 

Todd: And her eyes and like trying to figure out how to poke her. But he’s, he’s on her face and I dunno, just needles around your eye in general are Yeah. Scary. 

Craig: And, uh, and so Alan uses all of his will to move his hand and press.

On this cassette player and, and Ella likes music. You know, it’s like, uh, they have like a thing. Yeah. Ella Fitzgerald or Billy Holiday or something. Right. They’ve got, you know, it’s kind of their thing. And he entices Ella, um, to come and be affectionate with him, which again is kind of heartbreaking because he has to lure her with kindness and love.

And of course we know it’s deception, but she doesn’t. And, uh, she looks at him and she goes up and she starts hugging him and nuzzling him as she has before and before. It has been so sweet. You know, that there, there’s so little he can do, but he can nuzzle her with his face and that’s what they had done in the past.

It was very sweet. This is the part that I remember just because I thought that it was, I mean, it’s, it’s hard to watch, but more than because it’s, Gross or anything like that just because it’s, it’s sad and sad and, and again, there’s only so much that he can do, but what he can do is he can chomp down on her neck and shake her.

Like a dog shakes its prey. Yeah. And that’s what he does. And, and I mean, he killed it. It is just, I mean, the camera just, we watch this happen and it is, it’s, it’s brutal. It’s violent, it’s brutal. And you see, I’m sure it’s a puppet, but you see it getting flung around violently, um, and then thrown to the ground.

And, uh, even the, the, the corpse of the monkey falling to the ground looks uncomfortably real. Mm. If that, if that was a puppet, Savini did an amazing job because it looked very lifelike. Oh. Um, as it crumpled on the ground. 

Todd: Well, of course the idea of it’s just horrifying. Right? I mean, it’s just heartbreaking.

Yeah. They had this love, they had this affection. It started out that way. He has to use that love and affection and tap into what she still has for him. And again, she sort of feels like she’s helping him all this time, but, and he takes advantage of that and. Oh, it’s like an ultimate betrayal kind of thing, but you know, it was the right thing to do.

Yeah. I 

Craig: mean, he didn’t have any choice. Yeah, he didn’t have any and, and then, you know, . That’s, that’s kind of it. I think the next thing we see is, uh, 

Todd: there’s a jump scare. There’s a weird thing here, 

Craig: like, Oh, well, we jumped to his surgery, like mm-hmm. , you know, it’s very reminiscent of the last time. But, uh, he, uh, the doctor slices into his back and then the lights flicker and then Ella pops out from inside him.

It was a good jump scare I had for forgotten, and I didn’t see it coming. That was a really good, um, but then, but then he, you know, wakes up and it’s postsurgery and he asks Melanie if it was successful, and then it cuts away and we see him being wheeled to her van. And when the nurse wheels him up to the van, he stands up and climbs into the van himself.

Um, and they drive away into the sunset. Uh, and it’s a nice. Happy ending. Huh? The book didn’t end as happily. I haven’t read the book. I just read about this. The book doesn’t end as happily. His surgery is not a success in the book. The, There was a different ending to the movie that had to do with the, the, the dumb evil scientist verbiage or whatever.

Like he had been injecting all of the other monkeys with the serum and he goes to the lab only to find that the monkeys have completely overtaken the lab and, or like planning a monkey uprising or something. I don’t know. Something stupid. Well, but, and, and, and Romero liked it and wanted to stick with that darker ending, but it tested it’s typical for you.

Really, really poorly. Yeah. And, and he said, To be fair, the studio said, We will release it with whichever ending you choose. If you wanna stick with your ending, we’ll release it with your ending. If you want to go with the happier ending, we’ll do that. So, you know, that’s uncommon for a studio to give a director that kind of, um, say, But he ultimately went with the happier ending.

And, you know, subsequently, I think he said that he felt like he made the right decision, but it wasn’t an easy decision to make. I think it was the right decision. Yeah. Uh, I, I liked that, you know, after what was, you know, very sad. I thought that the whole ending with Ella was very sad. You kind of need a little bit of a pallet cleanser, and so it worked for me and overall, I’m so glad.

You know, I’m not patting myself on the back. We’ve talked about doing this for a long time, but I’m glad I picked it because I really enjoyed watching it. Yeah, and I wasn’t bored. I didn’t think it was too long. 

Todd: It was a good movie. I mean, honestly 

Craig: was a good one. And I’m, yeah, and I’m happy to remind people of it or introduce people to it, because if you haven’t seen it or if you haven’t seen it for a long time, go back.

I think it stands up. It does, you know, uh, in, in 2022, I think it, it stands up pretty darn well. It doesn’t feel overly dated. No, It’s, it’s good. It’s a good story. Good characters. You empathetic characters. Surprising empathy for, for the monkey and Alan. You know, lots of people and just overall it was a really enjoyable movie to watch.

Todd: It accomplishes those things that Romero is quite good at, and that is, you know, tapping into deeper, you know, more emotional truisms kind of about humanity in life and politics or whatever it is. You know, that that really never go away. And so even though he’s making a horror movie and, and many times it’s quite exploitative or whatever, like there’s an underpinning there that gets to you and it works.

I felt like the movie was really skillful at. Hammering the point home and creating these characters that were believable, creating situations that were believable because they were complex. They were not black and white, with the exception of the nurse. Right? The dean verbiage, you know, everybody else in there had complexity and, and real motivation.

You could understand why they were doing what they were doing, and you could understand why they weren’t perfect and you, I just, loads of sympathy. Sympathy for the monkey, Sympathy for the main character. Once again, pretty rare to portray disability in a film. We don’t usually go down that road and people usually just use it as a means to an end.

But like this, we, we, we, for a little while, kind. Get to empathize and experience what this guy’s life might be like and what his challenges are in his emotional states. And I found that satisfying and interesting, especially, you know, like in the eighties. I just, there were a lot of little things that really tickled me about this movie.

Really kept me engaged, kept me on the edge of my seat, and stuck with me at the end. I would totally recommend this movie to others and good movie. Thank you, Craig. Good choice. 

Craig: Well, you’re welcome, , . 

Todd: Sometimes you do a good thing every now and then. It’s nice. Yeah. 

Craig: Every now and check out this movie if you haven’t seen it or you haven’t seen it in a long time.

Um, it’s really good. And, uh, if you enjoyed this episode, let us know. Uh, you can message us on any of the platforms. You can find us wherever you find your favorite podcast. We do have, uh, a Patreon now, um, where we have some extra material, if that’s something that you are interested in. I believe if you go to our Facebook page, you can find a link to the Patreon page.

Message us. Let us know what you thought. Let us know anything that you would like to hear from us moving forward. But until next time, I’m Craig. And I’m Todd with two guys and a chainsaw.

This year, we lost Nichelle Nichols, an actress with a tremendous legacy both on- and off-screen, but who will best be remembered as Uhura on the original Star Trek series. We celebrate this groundbreaking actress by reviewing one of her lesser-known horror films, The Supernaturals.

This poor film, which was short-lived in theaters, lived on in VHS form on the horror shelves of your local rental store. Sadly, it has yet to receive a proper digital cleanup and transfer. You can find it online if you know how to Google…

The Supernaturals (1986)

Episode 313, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: And welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: This would be the time Craig, where we, uh, say goodbye to another prominent and very influential actor, Nichelle Nichols, who had the very groundbreaking role of playing Uhura on the original Star Trek series, uh, black woman, who at the time, there are hardly any black women on TV.

Um, let alone black women who kissed a white man, and that happened on Star Trek. So, uh, she was, uh, very. Groundbreaking in her role on that series. And she died recently. We are honoring her today by picking a horror movie that she’s been in. And she’s been in a couple horror movies, two or three, a few of ’em I think later in life.

But this one that we picked, we felt probably had the most prominent role mm-hmm . Uh, and, uh, the movie that we’re doing is from 1986, it’s called The Supernaturals. And I, you know, I, I mean, I hadn’t heard of this movie before. But then when I looked at the cover art from the VHS, uh, thing, I was like, oh yeah.

I mean, I’ve definitely seen this on the shelves, in the horror section. I just never rented it. This movie was released. I guess, I guess it was released in theaters. I didn’t get a lot of information about this film when I was looking online for it. It then was subsequently released on VHS and there it stayed.

There’s not been like a cleaned up DVD version or anything like that. And so sadly, like the version that we watched was. The quality was quite poor, even though we were on Amazon prime and renting it from there. Yeah. It was really dark and murky and it looked like a transfer from VHS. Yeah. To the point where you could see, you know, the role of the line a couple of times down.

I mean, I forgot almost what that was like, you know, when you’re watching a VHS tape and, and there’s like a line that rolls down the screen. You know, it’s just so analog and we’re so digital now. So, so we’re, we’re doing the supernaturals, which was once again, 1986, uh, movie that she did, that she plays.

Sergeant, I guess a Sergeant. Yeah. And there, there were a couple other horror films she’d been in. Uh, I think there was one anthology and then she was in like one story in it. But I think we more or less felt that probably the meatiest horror movie role that she did was probably in this film. So this is the one we’re doing, but I, I had never rented.

I’d never seen it before this. How about you? 

Craig: No, I hadn’t. I, I can’t say that I’m terribly surprised that this kind of falls in the forgotten category because it’s, it’s just okay. Frankly. 

Todd: I feel like you’re being generous when you say that. Honestly. 

Craig: No, I mean, it is. It’s it’s okay. The acting is fine and we’ll get into all that, that, you know, whatever.

But when Michelle Nichols passed, I I’ll be a hundred percent honest. I’m not a Trek. You know, I I’ve never really gotten into Star Trek. I mean, it’s, it’s such a cultural phenomenon that, of course I’m very much aware of it. And I’m very much aware of the people who are associated with it and who have been a part of it, but it it’s just not anything that I ever got into you.

this will tell you how much of a Trekky I am. The only Star Trek movie that I’ve really seen is the one with the whales, which is the one that everybody hates. Oh God. like, it’s like, it’s the, it’s the bastard stepchild. and it’s, and that’s the only one that I’ve seen. And I liked it. well, 

Todd: I’m not a tricky either.

I mean, I like sci-fi. I love it. I mean, I like sci-fi I like fantasy. I like horror. I grew up reading this stuff more than I watched it, honestly. Even when it comes to star Trek, I think all my friends and my cousins and everybody, I think they were way more into it than I was like, I loved it. Don’t get me wrong, but like, I didn’t have the toys and I wasn’t watching it on repeat and I wasn’t kind of obsessed about it.

And star wars was more exciting to me than Star Trek. Yeah. Then later in. I started watching star Trek and I realized why people love it so much. It’s heady. It’s a thinking person’s series. It’s not action and swashbuckling. It has those elements, but really it’s about it’s sci-fi as I read it, you know, it’s Isaac Asof it’s Ray Bradbury.

It’s like very intellectual. Serious thoughts about the future and, and, and the possibilities for humanity. And what would things be like? And within the context of science fiction, you can toy around with those, like self-reflexive ideas about, you know, what is the nature of us and why do we do the things we do?

And why do we say the things we say? And, you know, and all that, like that series in the sixties was incredibly groundbreaking and right. I just have to say like the appeal to it for me. You have a society that I kind of want our society to be like where nobody has to worry about work anymore.

Everything’s kind of taken care of. So now humanity has the luxury and the technology to just be able to explore and be able to see what else is out there and confront it. And then in the series, they confront races that are. What you might say further behind in civilization than we are for far ahead in civilization that we are.

But with this notion that, you know, they’re not gonna try to influence what they find and. Really impossible. Right? you by, by showing up and by being there, you’re gonna influence it, but they do their best. And I, I, I mean, I, I find myself coming more and more to Star Trek. I’ve been watching like next generation.

I’ve been watching some of this stuff and, uh, this is places where in a way that don’t get me wrong, literature has been there. A long time exploring this idea and stuff. But as far as mainstream mass pop culture kind of stuff, people are watching on television. It was very much a groundbreaking show, introducing people to ideas and concepts, and just ways of thinking that were very different from what was on television at the time, which is sitcoms mostly and things like that.

And then. Like Gene Roddenberry. I don’t think you could say enough nice things about what he did through that series. He very much insisted that this has to. a multicultural cast because this is what the future would look like, which, you know, if you watch any movie, any movies of the future from the fifties, the sixties and things, it looks surprising.

You know, it looks very white mm-hmm but this movie was definitely not. You have George Takei, you know, there’s an Asian American on there that you’ve got Uhura. One of the very first prominent roles for black women on there, all same thing with the Asian American, with, with George Takei. What a great series.

And I think that you can’t really say enough how groundbreaking it was for these people to give these, not just to give these people opportunities, but to, to show the rest of at least American society and culture at that time, like, This is what the future probably will look like and what it could look like.

It’s gonna have these people in it. And, uh, and we’re gonna confront that head on despite what the sensors say, and despite what the executives say, people want or whatever, and we’re gonna go full force with it. And they did it. And it, I think it had an indelible impact and Michelle Nichols was right there in the middle of it.

And she’s a great actress. Right. Uh, so it’s all that, not to diminish her as a person and you know, and her and her abilities and her skills. Right. She’s really good in that role. Right. 

Craig: She’s very talented. That’s the point? The, despite the fact that I’m, I have not personally been. A fan and, and I don’t even wanna say that cause I’m, I’m a, I’m a fan of the premise and the idea and, and everything that it represents.

I just am not. Cultured in you just never 

Todd: really. Yeah. It’s, there’s a lot of stuff to watch I’ve not gotten into, into, and yeah, you’re just not into that. I get it. 

Craig: I totally get it. Right. But the point is when Ms. Nichols passed away, despite the fact that I personally haven’t seen a lot of these movies and, and the original series, I felt like we needed to do this because.

She is such a prominent and influential force in our culture. Now it had it not been her. It may have been. Someone else, you know, she, she had a personal relationship with gene Roddenberry, um, the creator of star Trek, according to her, they were romantically involved for a number of years before star Trek, um, and remained very, very close.

Um, throughout, when he passed away, she performed a song at his funeral that she had written in his honor, you know, they had a. Solid relationship, but regardless she did, you know, she was groundbreaking. Like you said, you know, she wasn’t the first black woman on television. She wasn’t the first black woman in film, but she was among the very first black women who were given roles other than the maid or.

The mammy or, you know, whatever exactly. You know, she was, uh, a, a prominent character. She was an equal, uh, amongst them. Yeah. And I think that that’s, I think that that’s what Roddenberry was trying to do. And I think that it makes a lot of logical sense, but in the 1960s, It just, wasn’t done, especially when you’re talking about, uh, a series that would go on to, you know, spawn a bazillion other series and, and films that that’s intergalactic in scope, you know, you’re dealing with.

Not only human beings of different colors and, and races and creeds, but you know, all, all different types of alien races and whatnot. Um, it, it would only make sense that those divisions between races would. Blur and, and, and potentially disappear when everything becomes that diverse mm-hmm and, and like you said, yeah, she’s, she’s best known for this role, but she was a, an accomplished singer and dancer and actress before this, she be, you know, was accomplished after this.

She continued working. Um, she just did so many cool things. You know, she performed on stage. She recorded albums. She worked for ING NASA. Yeah. Like she worked for NASA for many years. Recruiting, diverse people for, for their astronaut programs. Just such a cool lady. And, um, I know that later in her life, in the last.

I don’t know, five, 10 years or so. Um, at some point she suffered a small stroke. She struggled with dementia. She retired from doing conventions and things because her mental clarity suffered, but, um, just such a, such a cool lady. And we do this a lot. We do these, um, tribute episodes a lot, but I just really felt.

God, if anybody deserves it, it’s her. And, and I think that she really had a cultural impact that probably most, well, maybe not most, probably a lot of people don’t even realize and maybe never will realize. Um, but I just have so much admiration and respect for her. And this movie, the supernaturals is, you know, it’s fine.

It’s eighties. And it’s not great, but even in this she’s good. yeah. I mean, she’s, she, her, her character doesn’t have a whole lot to do, but she’s solid. She plays like the hardass Sergeant. Um, and I believe her. Yeah. She carries herself, Ugh, with such strength and gravitas and, uh, You know, she’s, she’s really a highlight of this film there.

There’s not a whole lot to talk about. No, really as far as the movie is concerned, but, but damn she’s good in it. Yeah. In, in the relatively small role that she 

Todd: plays. Well, I mean, I’m just gonna throw my opinion on the. I thought it was kind of a cheap throwaway made for TV movie. It sure feels like it.

Like the soundtrack feels like it. I wish I had seen this film in the way it was originally intended. I mean, it was obviously shot on film. It was probably shot with care, the VHS transfer and. subsequent digitization that I saw just made it, it look bad and you couldn’t even tell what was happening half the time, because it’s kind of dark and murky.

And so, you know, this might be one of those films that might really benefit from a cleanup and a digital rerelease that’s proper. And I might look a little more highly on it, but it’s kind of all over the place plot wise. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. It’s got about five or six different like scratch head scratching, like loose ends.

It’s kind of boring. It’s really halfway through the movie, almost exactly the halfway through the movie, mark that anything happens and what, by anything happens, like, I mean, anything at all. Interesting happens. yeah. And, and then when things kind of start happening, it just. It’s just all over the place and you’re just kind of scratching your head at what’s going on and then it’s over.

She wasn’t given a huge role, but nobody has a huge role in this. No, you know, I was actually surprised when the, when it’s fired up and I saw this face on there. I was like, please tell me, that’s definitely the guy who was in Greece too. Right. Cuz if not my memory oh yeah. Form serves me and yeah, I looked it up.

Yeah. It’s the news from Greece too. You know, the really hot, handsome looking dude from Greece two who I thought. I, I can’t believe has not gone on to be the next James Dean, just based on who looks alone. Oh, well 

Craig: Maxwell, Cofield Maxwell. CA Maxwell. Cofield is a cautionary tale. Oh, is he? Yeah, he was like he said in interviews that, um, he was.

Hollywood’s new golden boy. Like they were telling him they were telling him that he was the next Richard gear. Like he was just set to, you know, be this huge rising star, very talented history in theater, um, musical theater. He could sing, he could dance. He could act he’s gorgeous. And he just had this incredible career ahead of him.

And then grease two happened, oh, after grease two, nobody would touch him. You’re hitting, you know, that nobody would touch him. And, uh, he really feels. At this point, he’s kind of over it, but like, he was really bitter about it for a really long time because he, he couldn’t get work. Um, except in stuff like the supernaturals, maybe I don’t, I don’t know if this came before or after grease to, but yeah, like, and now he looks back on it and he says, you know, I, I, I have to be grateful for being a part of.

A cult phenomenon, because I think grease two is stupid. I, I never liked it. I never, I never saw the appeal of it, but I know there are a lot of people who really like it. There are some people who like it better than the original, well, um, as 

Todd: kids, we watch it all the time. So we liked it, but we were it.

Yeah. 

Craig: Nowadays, no. His other big role was in, um, empire records with, uh, live Tyler and Renee Zellweger. Mm-hmm I, I think in, in the late nineties and, and he played kind of an iconic role in that he, he played, he played like, uh, an aging pop star. His name was Rex Manning. They were celebrating Rex’s Manning day at the record store like that, that role and, and that movie have also kind of given him cult status and he embraces that.

But, um, he’s still a little bit bitter, but you know, the, the he’s he’s 

Todd: still working. Oh yeah. Like every year, all year. I mean, ever since this, this was, uh, his. um, he, well, this came after Greece two for sure. A Greece two was in 82. This was in 86. He did a few things. Electric dreams was this like classic eighties movie.

Did you ever see that? No. Oh my God. It’s about a cello player and, and a and a computer and it’s, there’s almost no more eighties movie than electric dreams. Honestly, he had a small role on dynasty for a few episodes. Like. And then he was doing the supernaturals and stuff like this. He was in wax work too lost in time, which I’m sure we’ll do at some point, cuz we did the original.

I have actually fonder memories of the sequel. So since the mid eighties, early eighties, a steadily, he’s had three or four to five roles every year, so, uh, 

Craig: yeah. And still working. Yeah. Um, oh yeah, for sure. I, I think, I think that I’ve seen some of the stuff that he’s been in recently, and I think that I just didn’t recognize him because of course now he’s older and he.

Yeah, but’s different. 

Todd: You know what he looks like now he looks like, kind of like a Roger Moore, like James Bond arrow, Roger Moore. He’s still, he’s still yeah, 

Craig: kind of, yeah. He’s a handsome man and, and he’s not a bad actor and he’s fine in this. And you know, I, I think that, uh, he’s, he’s. Basically cast for his looks like he’s the very handsome one.

Like , that’s kind of his role. right. He’s a private, so, uh, Michelle Nichols plays Sergeant Leon Hawkins and she’s leading this, I don’t know what you call him. You’re the military kid. What would you call this? What are they like a unit unit 

Todd: troop group, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Of, of, of people.

They’re just, it doesn’t make private sense. None of this makes sense from a military standpoint though, let’s just, let’s just get that out there. sure. 

Craig: Fair enough. But it’s supposed to be like a training exercise where they get dropped off in the woods for three days and they’re gonna be training or something.

I don’t know, whatever Sergeant Hawkins and Michelle nickels is in charge. And then it’s just a whole, you know, group. I don’t even know how many of them, there are too many to keep track of eight or something. And another one of them is private. LA June, who’s played by Talia Balsam, who I am not personally familiar with, but she like look at her IMDB page.

She is working all the time. like she is, she is, uh, she’s. Everywhere. And, and she’s, you know, currently working on some series right now, I 

Todd: think she’s a madman. Uh, she was mom Sterling and mad men, which is a big role . 

Craig: Yeah. And then, uh, private Michael Osgood is played by LeVar 

Todd: Burton. Right. 

Craig: Who, you know, who, who for forever in my heart will be the reading rainbow guy.

Right. But, um, but, uh, you know, he did a, a, a big stent. Star Trek also. He was the guy that wore those funny sunglasses things. Yeah. Jordy 

Todd: yeah, he, the, the blind guy on star Trek. Yeah. Jordy, uh, can’t remember his last name, but yeah, Jordy. Yeah. On star Trek, star Trek to the next generation. There 

Craig: are a couple of other, uh, familiar faces in here too, from the.

And, and a couple of people who, you know, continued to work and, and who continued to work. One of the Gibbs brothers from the BGS makes a cameo, uh, in the film he origin, he originally wrote the score for the movie, but it was rejected in favor of, of a different score. Supposedly there’s a cut of the movie out there where you can hear.

Gibbs score. Um, but that’s not I’d to hear it. What we 

Todd: saw, what we saw was lame, just a lame, very standard kind of, I thought like generic, generic score to the point where it was. So generic was almost distracting. Like. God it’s cheap in the movie so much. . Yeah. 

Craig: And, and the thing is, you know, here we are almost halfway through, we’ve barely talked about the movie at all.

It’s because there’s really not much to talk about. Okay. So the premise is it opens with a. Flashback, I guess to 1865. This is in Alabama. It’s during the civil war. This young kid is playing amongst the dead bodies of these Confederate soldiers. and he’s, he’s like. Picking pieces of their, uh, uniforms off of their bodies and putting them on like he’s like playing dress up or whatever, and a Confederate, an older Confederate soldier approaches him.

Jeremy. Now your daddy’s gone. You’ve gotta take care of your mama. You understand? Now, listen, I want you to go home. You go straight home, you take Hopkins road a long way, and you stay out of that hollow, cuz it’s been mine. We put those minds there to kill yanks and keep them out of our land. Not to kill little boys.

You understand? Yes, sir. You’ve gotta take care of yourself too. Jeremy, cuz you are special. We’ve all seen that God has smiled on you boy, but then both he and the soldier who warned him are, are captured by union soldier. And they’re forced to walk across this field, um, that they had planted mines in and the union general or whatever.

It’s like, you know, your minds have cost us lots of men and lots of time. So now you’re gonna. You know, hunt them out for us or whatever. And he forces them to walk across this minefield and he tells them if you make it all the way across, then you can just keep going and be free. Well, they walk across and all of them get blown up except for the kid.

And then when the kid walks, like once he gets all the way across and he turns around and he looks back the, uh, The union, uh, generals, like, do it again. Mm-hmm um, And, and the kid looks scared and the wind starts to blow and his hand starts to glow and then it quick cuts to the future and it quick cuts so much.

And doesn’t give us a new, like, like it gave, yeah, it gave us a title card for the past, but it didn’t give us a new title card started watching. I started watching this on YouTube. It’s available on YouTube. And at this point I’m like something must have gotten cut out. So I went and rented it on Amazon.

No, nothing got cut out. It’s just an unexplained cut to, I don’t know, I guess modern day, although it’s very clearly the eighties. And you’ve got the same unit, unit 44 or whatever, but you know, of course, hundred day, a hundred years later, I mean, uh, or more, 

Todd: I mean, let’s, let’s just talk real quick about like the silliness of all of this.

This mind feel that they’re making ’em walk across is like smaller than my backyard. Yeah. 

Craig: Walk around it. Jesus. 

Todd: But it’s got, you know, like 15 minds in it apparently like all within feet of each other, like who would do that? Right. So it’s kind of, it’s kind of silly. And the whole movie is sort of shot in the woods basically, but it just feels.

The woods down the street. I, I never felt to me anyway, like a very desolate location. And then I don’t know, I, I don’t really think that like units and unit numbers and things from the union soldier side of the civil war have. Therefore carried through to the modern army where those units still exist and have the same number.

I it’s, it’s, it’s very silly and everything that’s military. I I’m just, I’m not an expert in the military, but I was a military brat, you know, and, and some, you don’t even need to be. A military brat to kind of recognize that a lot of the things that they do in this movie are kind of dumb and silly. And if you can’t even have a modicum of care towards a slight amount of authenticity for this, it kind of degrades all of it.

It takes the whole movie into silly territory. When you’re only just like 15 

Craig: minutes in. And when we jump to the future, it’s just these two guys, like, I guess they’re supposed to be like scouting this location, or like setting up perimeter flags or something. It’s, it’s totally unclear. But then like the wind blows and the ground opens up and it’s like glowing and it like swallows them down.

and then we never really hear anything about them. Again, nothing more about these two guys. Well, I feel like later somebody stumbles upon one of their heads oh, it took 

Todd: me forever to figure out it was one of them. Yeah. I thought it was our burden there for a quick second. I did 

Craig: too, because there’s. Yeah.

There’s only two black guys in the movie, 

Todd: so yeah. You have 50, 50 chance. Yeah. 

Craig: Right. But, uh, but then it cuts away from them and it cuts back to this, you know, group of soldiers who are coming here for the training mission and they horse around and you kind of get to meet all of them. And you find out that Maxwell call field’s character, private Ellis can run fast.

Like who cares? . And then really nothing happens for the next 45 minutes. Oh my God. Like nothing. The only thing that happens is that they keep running across this middle aged white woman. in all white, just like hanging out in the woods and she makes googly eyes with, uh, Ellis, like, I don’t know, 700 times over the next 45 minutes.

And that’s really the only thing that happens. Like there’s hygienes. Like, I don’t know, one guy, one guy screws around with his gun. Just random things. Like they like Ellis finds a skull and they’re like, oh cool. Like nothing happens. 

I’m 

Todd: sorry to say this because it’s just a movie who cares. But like the military is not like this right.

One. We’re gonna go out for a training mission in the woods. You know, everything’s gonna be quite serious. And these guys are like their fraternity out there. Uhhuh, farting around, you know, playing around tossing skulls, drinking beer, joking, making out, making out. That was bizarre. Uh, you know, there’s a woman in this group and, uh, her name is, uh, Lajune Lajune.

Mm-hmm, , there’s a moment where they’re all sitting around a campfire and they’re chatting and then Lajune is out there. I mean, seriously, it’s like kind of from a Friday, the 13th movie, more than it’s from like a, you know, movie where they’re supposed to be military activity happening. They’re sitting around at campfire chatting and LA June is kind of off by herself.

And so our main character Ellis walks up to her and they have a little conversation. And throughout the course of their conversation real quickly, we realized that they’ve had a relationship before, which is weird. And then they like talk about it in this professional situation, which is also weird. And then they kiss.

What this is not, this is not military activity. I mean, you know, it is just not gonna, I don’t get me wrong. This I’m thinking happen, but it’s not gonna happen out in the open on while you’re in the middle of this drill, where then the 

Craig: sergeants comes over is like, you guys cut it out. Please be advised that you’re pulling double shift guard duty tonight.

That’s 2200 to oh 200. I should help you keep your mind on proper military conduct. I take five minutes. like, okay, sorry, mom. And I feel bad for 

Todd: her because I feel like her character, all she really could do in this movie was just to be tough and. Bark orders of people. She didn’t get much beyond 

Craig: that. No, but nobody does.

Like, it’s, it, it it’s an ensemble cast, I guess you would say. But all that means is that everybody spread really thin. So you don’t really know anybody. You don’t really care about anybody. Like, I, I never really even got it. Like. are Ellison LA June currently an item, uh, did they used to be, and maybe they’re like rekindling or something, cause he’s also not necessarily overtly flirting with the mysterious woods woman, but kind of yeah.

And, and, and right in front of LA, June. Yeah. So. Yeah. Maybe they’re not in a relationship. I, and 

Todd: I mean, there’s, I don’t know. There’s a mysterious woods woman and everybody’s just like, huh, that’s interesting. like, there’s not like, no, you’re supposed to be out in the middle of nowhere. Right. And there’s some woman in a white dress by hers.

Self who’s coming and going, like, that’s bizarre enough to at least treat it a little differently than these people treat it. Well. And 

Craig: the Sergeant asks her like, who are you? And she’s like, I’m Melanie. And she’s like, uh, do you live here? Well, yeah. Around here. Well, are there more of you? Hmm. Yeah. Maybe like, 

Todd: just, yeah, she’s that way the whole time.

And they just put up with it, like, they’ll just you’re right. Like 

Craig: she just keeps showing up in their. Like, 

Todd: like a stray dog, you know, that comes and goes. They’ll ask her questions even in, later on in the movie when scenes get intense and it’s like, look, we need answers from you because you clearly have something to do with this.

They’ll ask her questions and she’ll just not answer and that’ll be okay with them. You know? Like they don’t right. Just so maddening. It’s just so silly. And you know, when I was out and. Uh, because I was trying so hard to dig up information on this movie and I could find so little, there is a reviewer online, which is why actually this is why I rarely re read reviews.

When I’m doing this, who says the characterizations of the soldiers are also well developed. Um, the director may have well been inspired by aliens, which came out about the same time as the supernaturals. Although if anything, the characterizations of the soldiers here are superior to the ones in aliens.

What? No, please. Absolutely. That it’s the opposite. And then she, and then this person goes on to say, there is a very funny scene with a drunken Bobby Desco forcing his way into Talia Balsam’s tent. That is not 

Craig: a funny scene at all. It’s 

Todd: not funny at all it. Oh, Oh, my 

Craig: God. It’s a scene that never would be filmed today.

Like, I think that they thought they might have been funny, but it’s not. So he’s like the douchy one that’s established. Like he’s the douchy one, but, and he’s kind of hit on her before. And again, I, I know even less about the goings on, of the military than you do, but I would imagine. And I could be entirely wrong.

So those of you out there keep going, do know about things, you know, set a straight, I, I, I’m just talking straight outta my butthole, but I could imagine that women in the military face some of this misogynistic. Crap. And that it’s probably, you know, a very real part of their lives that they have to learn to deal with.

And I’m sure that they find ways to deal with it. And I’m sure that a lot of them deal with it with humor or, you know, wit or, or whatever. But he, he crawls into her tent at night, her small tent. And is like, kind of trying to sweet talker all the while, pulling his pants down, like he’s, he’s hovering over her and he’s pulling his pants down.

Yeah. Like, she’s just gonna be like, oh, well, thank goodness you’re here and have sex with him. No, it comes across as very rapey. And I guess the joke is that she kind. Sort of plays along with it until he’s mostly pantsed and then she puts her knife between his legs, you know, I, I guess right up against his Dick or his balls or, or whatever, and, you know, sends him scurrying off.

Into the night. It’s not funny. It actually made me very uncomfortable. I didn’t like it at all. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s gross. It was gross. It wasn’t funny. It was weird. I feel like even in the early to mid eighties, this wasn’t even that funny. No. And, and it’s all of this is unnecessary. We’re like halfway through the movie.

And all we’ve gotten are these hijinks with these sort of like, oh, this guy’s the douche bag. This guy’s the pretty boy. This woman is mysterious and she’s in the woods. 

Craig: And there’s like a simple one there, boy. 

Todd: And they found, they found an area. That’s a clearing where it’s. Just like yellow ground or something.

And they’re like, everything’s dead. This is bizarre. It’s dead. Oh. And, and one point court falls in a hole. It’s more like a trap. And he looks around and he finds a lantern and he finds a corpse and he sees a scarecrow, I guess they’re trying, they think they’re building some suspense or they think they’re building some intrigue, but all this stuff is just, I don’t know what to say.

Like, it’s just a hodgepodge of. Stuff that doesn’t feel particularly sinister. Another thing they find is, um, like, uh, there’s a bunch of sticks, right? That are in their way sharpened into points. Like, you know, they’re blocking the trap, like a booby trap, kind of like a booby trap, like a mysterious thing.

And one of them, I can’t remember who it is, speaks up and says, oh, this must date back to like the Confederate times, because this is like the Napoleonic wars. They used things like this to get. And I’m like, I’m like what? Even in the eighties would. Would you consider that these sticks that you found in the woods have been there since Confederate 

Craig: times?

No, they have very clearly been like freshly carved. So 

Todd: it it’s all so hokey and silly and, and we’re halfway through, and this is all that’s happened. It’s that guy, right. A court who gets, gets pushed away by, um, Lajune from his RA, his attempted rape, who then. Stumbles off into the glowing smokey woods.

Right? Uh, he doesn’t really have a motivation for 

Craig: it. I think he hears a noise or something. I don’t know, 

Todd: a dark figure comes up behind him, which we can’t see clearly. And he runs, he falls into another one of these pit traps and he now he’s in a cave with, with a wooden roof and a bunch of lanterns that are lit.

That’s when we see this, this head, I guess I thought, like I said, I, I thought it. Oz and, uh, I don’t know. He’s got something in his mouth. Like he’s been, I don’t know what he, I didn’t know what that 

Craig: was. Yeah. I, I, I have no idea what, what lured court out into the woods is that they’re glowing now. Yeah.

they’re 

Todd: glowing and smokey. 

Craig: Right. And he is like, that’s weird. so he goes out there, like you said, he, he falls in, you. The first time somebody fell in there. I don’t remember who it was like first they thought it was like a booby trap. And then they’re like, no, it’s a bunker. Well, it turns out it’s like a whole fricking tunnel system, but while he’s down there, um, a zombie comes out of the wall.

And, uh, court tries to climb out, but he’s being pursued by more than one zombie. And then it cuts to the next morning and he’s missing and they go looking for him and they find his body at first, they think he’s just passed out, but against the tree dead. And then the Sergeant like looks at all the other soldiers and she like, this is totally your fault.

Like what. 

Todd: Right. You’re supposed to be paying attention. You’re doing this, you’re doing whatever, choose them all out and then gets to work. And she asks weird to contact base on the radio said, I don’t care what it takes. You get a signal. So he’s gotta climb a tree for that. Then ask three others to go with her, to go looking for something, whatever.

Yeah. 

Craig: I don’t know what they’re looking 

Todd: for and they end up finding a cabin in, in the woods. And so they break in and there’s nothing in there for a while. 

Craig: No, except my favorite. This is my favorite part of the movie in this a hundred and something year. Cabin Ellis finds a perfectly intact journal. Yes.

Of a Confederate 

Todd: widow from 1865. 

Craig: perfectly preserved. Yeah. Like it shows him turning the pages. Like he could have bought this at borders like yesterday.

Todd: it’s so true. 

Craig: She’s writing about how her dearest Evan has gone off to war and she hasn’t heard from him in a long time. Um, and then, you know, in another entry it’s like news of Evan’s death came today, but. Thank God. I still have Jeremy. If it weren’t for him, I I’d probably just die. Well, so it it’s pretty obvious that this is the mother of the kid from the opening scene, right?

Todd: Jeremy is that kid. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. And then they find this old, like decrepit white haired, man, just huddling in a corner. He doesn’t talk. He doesn. Do anything he’s just huddling there in the corner. And then Melanie, the woman in white shows up stop just 

Todd: suddenly 

Craig: and yeah, just out of 

Todd: nowhere, just shows up.

Won’t answer any questions. 

Craig: no, won’t answer any questions, but at this point, wasn’t it pretty fricking obvious what was happening. Yeah, of course. 

Todd: You know, what’s going on. Yeah, 

Craig: you, yeah, like, obviously, and of course this comes in a reveal later, but the old white hair dude is Jeremy. And the mysterious woman in white Melanie is his mom.

Now, at this point, we don’t really know how or why that could be. But it seemed perfectly obvious at the moment. Yeah, of course. Anyway, so they’re, 

Todd: I don’t know. Yeah. They leave there and, uh, they’re all looking at a map and trying to figure out how they’re gonna go to some other place and where they’re gonna go, the radio isn’t working and, and then suddenly like they’re under fire.

Somebody starts shooting at them and it’s 

Craig: unseen forces. Yeah. And this goes, this goes on for a while. Like they’re just getting fired on like some of them get shot and then some more of them get shot. And then 

Todd: the SED thinks he’s seeing a zombie and he shoots at him, but it turns out it’s Oz. So now, 

Craig: yeah, Oz is dead.

So he’s killed him. And then, and then S runs away into the forest. Cuz I don’t know what he’s running. I guess he’s just so distraught over having killed his friend and uh, like he sees a zombie that startles him. So he jumps back and hemps himself on, uh, one of those spikes. I, I, I have to say that oddly.

This was an oddly sad moment. Like, um, hemp entails himself on this spike and then Ellis finds him and the actor’s like Ellis. I can’t move. Why can’t I move? And he looks down and he sees the spike coming through his chest and he like starts crying before he dies. And I was like, huh? Yeah, 

Todd: he was, I mean, it was a touching moment and otherwise odd scene like that, that chase went on for.

And then it’s like, Ooh, zombie, ah, back up, and then Impalment, you know, and then when S finds him, there’s no zombie there, you know, no, it just, the, all these, these, these threats come and go all the, while they’re in this weird woods. And this woman in the white dress is just sitting there silently sort of watching all this happen right from where they are.

And then, uh, Deju, I don’t know what this whole deal was. I, I guess she finds something and it looks like. 

Craig: it’s like, it’s a Confederate bullet that, um, earlier in the movie, Ellis had found a bullet it, but it’s not like a modern bullet. Yeah. It’s a, what do you call it? It’s it’s a ball. It’s a ball like, yeah.

Yeah. And he had found it and he had given it to her and she finds one. And compares it and they’re the same. So I think that it’s supposed to be like, she figures out why are we being shot with Confederate bullets? Like, it doesn’t make any sense at that same time, Melanie who’s sitting there right next to her disappears and.

Reappears immediately in the, in the right, in the forest where she finds Ellis carrying, um, Sedgwick’s body back. And because she appears out of nowhere, he looks at her and says, it’s you you’re making this happen. Why. And then she shows him a flashback, which is basically the opening scene, but we get more information.

Mm. After the little kid had walked through and the union general had ordered him to do it again. She, Melanie, his mother arrived and, uh, she saw him and she ran across the minefield. I guess in theory, she didn’t know it was a minefield, I don’t know, to try to get to him. And she got blown up by a mine.

But he, with his glowing hands revived her, like brought her back from the dead. And so she runs him and she grabs him and she holds him. But then she stares directly into the camera ominously, like I have in my notes, like he brought her back. But is she different?

it’s so stupid now she’s evil. Yeah. And, and then she just lays it out. You know, she, she tells him that the old man in the cabin is Jeremy. She’s like, he’s my son. And. Come with me, Evan. And I’m like, what? And so she shows him a picture in her lock and it’s him, but with a mustache . Yeah. And, and she’s like, oh, our love is eternal or something.

I don’t know. And he yells at her and she runs away and then he runs and he falls, but like zombie. Like come outta the ground are coming then they chase him and he is fighting him and oh, oh my God. And I guess this is supposed to be the conclusion, like the remaining soldiers, like we is like the simple one.

I really liked him. He was really. Sweet. Oh, I have a theory. And if you haven’t seen the movie, this will probably mean nothing to you, but you’ve seen the movie. I think we are. And Chris were a couple

cause they’re always together because they’re always together and they’re always very concerned about each other’s safety. They think they’re cute. Could be they’re a cute little couple could be. But then trouble. Then we gets grabbed by a zombie, but Chris saves him. And, but then they both get, they both end up getting killed anyway.

And Ellis goes back to the cabin and visits old man, Jeremy and Melanie bursted. And she’s like get away from him. But Ellis turns to Jeremy. He’s like, you can end all of this, all of the pain and the suffering, you can end it. And then I thought that a zombie shot Ellis. Because that’s what it looked like.

Yeah. And it looked, it did, but I guess not, cuz he’s fine. 

Todd: So yeah, I don’t know. He just. But 

Craig: raised him or something. Yeah. he says to the old man, he says to the old man end it, send her back. And so Jeremy does the whole like glowing 

Todd: hands thing, animates her back to the land of the dead. Yes . 

Craig: Yeah. She, she like, she like glows and screams.

And disappears. Ellis looks back at old man, Jeremy and he’s dead. He’s just sitting there, like with his face to the ceiling and his eyes wide open. Oh God, that poor guy oh, just been living out there in the woods with his ghost mom for the past a hundred years. 

Todd: That’s horrible decides to end it cuz this guy yeah.

like suggests it. You can do it and end the stuff. Oh yeah. I guess you’re right. I can’t it’s like Dorothy with her Ruby red slippers. Right? You could have done all this all the time. it only took a hundred 

Craig: guess I might as well. It only took a hundred years for somebody who looks exactly like his. Dead dad to show up and tell him it’s okay.

Todd: Right. Are we supposed to think that this he’s like a descendant or something? I have no flipping 

Craig: idea. Oh, it’s so 

Todd: stupid. As, as we’re describing this movie, it sounds way more interesting than it actually plays out on screen. It’s 

Craig: not interesting. It’s boring. Don’t watch it. It’s 

Todd: boring and confusing and hard to see and weird and not, not satisfying at all.

Craig: Yeah. Don’t watch it. You know, and the funny thing is like, so I started, like I said, I started watching it on YouTube and the, the transfer was bad. Like it was obviously a transfer from a VHS. And then that was another thing that led me to rent it from Amazon. I’m like, oh, surely it will be better quality on Amazon.

Like no, the quality, same crappy club. Can’t yeah, it’s crappy. And it just made me think like, this is how we used to watch movies all the time and we thought it was fine. Mm. 

Todd: Like that’s. Yeah. Cause. Also the screens were smaller and lower resolution too. So it didn’t even look as bad on those little screens.

Right. 

Craig: we’re spoiled now. I mean that, I mean, that’s, that’s what movies looked like when we were growing up. It was terrible. Oh my God. We had it. So rough. Ugh. Yeah. Anyway, 

Todd: thank God we live this long. Thank 

Craig: God. Then then it’s morning and Ellis goes back to camp and he finds Melanie’s Locke. And he’s greeted by Lajune who like, I don’t know, embraces him or something.

And so he drops, the locket Hawkins is still alive and like wise crack. And I don’t even remember what she says, but like none of them seem particularly bothered by the fact. Everybody else is dead. I know nor do LA June or Hawkins ask for any kind of explanation of what happens like, Ugh. thank God.

That’s over. let’s get outta 

Todd: here. One of the worst training exercise 

Craig: ever, ever.

So they put Hawkins, cuz she like, I think she got shot in the leg or something. So they put her between them and they. Walk out of there. Leave. Yeah. that’s the end. And then there’s some cheesy song over the credit. God. Oh man. Oh God. Uh, I wish there had been anything really to like about this movie because you know, this happens all the time.

We do these tribute movies, these people, but it’s because, you know, Michelle Nichols is not a horror state. You know, like, no horror is what we do. It’s not necessarily what she did, this isn’t her best work. But even that said, I mean, she, she does perfectly fine with what she’s given to work with. I mean, she that’s the key.

Yeah. She plays the hardnosed Sergeant believably and well, and. and she looks good doing it to be fair. Nobody in the movie is terrible. I mean, Maxwell Cofield is beautiful and, and beautiful to look at. He’s got great hair. I’m super jealous of his hair. Well of everything he look, he, he’s just, he’s incredibly handsome.

You know, I’m, I’m happy to see lava Burton in anything. I have just such a soft spot for him in my heart, from my childhood. You know, that this is the guy that got our generation reading. I, I loved that show. I loved that show and he’s got a great voice. Yeah. And he would, he would read the books and they would show the illustrations from the books.

Man. I loved that. So, you know, it, it’s always nice to see him. And it is a movie that you said that you remembered seeing it on the shelves. I don’t, I don’t remember seeing it. I, I, I didn’t know anything about it. I feel like it’s kind of been lost to time and I, I understand why it’s not remarkable. It’s not memorable.

It it’s the type of movie. Falls by the wayside for a reason, because there’s just really nothing. There’s, there’s just not much to say about 

Todd: it. It’s just lame. I mean, it’s just a dumb movie cobbled together. The script is silly. None of it makes sense. It’s not even particularly well shot, it’s dark and things.

Hopefully that’s just a, a factor of the transfer and you got these famous people in it, you know, famous at the time, perfectly capable, but they have nothing to work with. And. You know, sadly here we are with our tribute episode, as you said, always for Michelle Nichols. And we’re talking about our horror movie, which for about 90% of the famous actors and actresses that we talk about on this, on, on this series, they’re horror movies are not usually they’re stand out.

Products for them. So, right. It’s just an excuse for us to find something, you know, that we wouldn’t otherwise find and TA and pay tribute to somebody, you know, that we care about otherwise and, and, uh, has had, and 

Craig: right. And that I legitimately respect and admire. I, I, I mean, oh yeah, this, this woman was a trailblazer that you can’t take.

That away from her Whoopi Goldberg credits Michelle Nichols with being one of the people who inspired her to be an actress who made her believe that people who looked like her could do it. You, you, you can’t underestimate this. Woman’s. Um, influence after the first season of, um, star Trek, she was just already kind of sick of the racist bullshit that she was facing from critics, um, and, and the public.

And she just was, she was ready to walk away. She was being offered other projects. She was being offered projects on stage. And she, she went to gene, rod, Jean Roddenberry. She went to gene Roddenberry and she turned in her resignation and he said, look, I really, really don’t wanna lose you, take the weekend.

And if you come back and, and you still wanna leave, I’ll let you go. No hard feelings, but I really don’t want to. And that weekend she. Participated in some sort of convention or rally for the NAACP and somebody approached her and said, a fan would like to, to speak with you. And she said, that’s fine. And that fan was Dr.

Martin Luther king, Jr. He came and just. Gushed about what a huge fan he was. He said that, um, that star Trek was the only show that he allowed his children to stay up at night to watch. And when she told him that she was planning on leaving, he said, you can’t, you cannot, you are representation. You know, you’re the, you’re the only person of color in a role like this.

You’re the only woman in a role like this. You’re the only person that young. Black people that young women can look up to on television, you know, in, in this huge forum, um, you’ve gotta stay. And so she went back to Jean Roddenberry after the weekend and said, I’ll stay. And apparently he pulled out her resignation letter, which he had already torn up and, and the rest is history.

She stayed for the remainder of that season. She went on to do. I don’t know, I think six of the movies or something like that, she’s a legend and deservedly, so, and this movie sucks, but she’s amazing. , I’m thrilled to be able to, uh, to, to, to show her our respect. 

Todd: Yes. Don’t watch this movie, watch some star Trek 

Craig: instead.

Yeah. watch the whale one. It’s good. I don’t even know if she said it. 

Todd: you’re the only one who would say that.

well, thank you so much for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share with a friend. You can find us online and we have our Facebook page. Our. Beat our website, two [email protected] and also our Patreon page patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. Go there and consider supporting our podcast.

Doesn’t take much, but you’ll get a whole bunch of goodies. Thank you so much for listening. A hundred percent. We’d love. Hearing from you. And we want to hear, uh, what you thought of this podcast and, uh, this movie, perhaps, and any other movies that you would like us to review in the future until next time I’m Todd and I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We asked our Patrons: Of the horror franchises we haven’t touched, which would you like to see next? Children of the Corn was the surprising answer. So here ya go. We touched it for ya.

How does it hold up against Stephen King’s many other properties? Listen and find out.

Children of the Corn (1984)

Ep 311, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: And welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd

Craig: and I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, Craig, after doing this, uh, podcast for over 300 episodes, now there is, uh, hardly a franchise we haven’t touched. And so we went to our patrons recently and we had asked them, uh, we, we, we, we took stock of a few, probably about six, I think, or so franchises that we haven’t touched yet.

And we said, which one should we do? And we gave them a poll, oddly enough. To my surprise. The top of the list was Children of the Corn. Yeah, it was surprise too. So I guess we just either we have a lot of children of the corn fans or, or we have people who’ve never really seen many Children of the Corn movies.

They just want to hear about it. May I could be. So of course we listen to what our patrons had to say, that they do influences show a lot. Uh, not only did we put this to them, but every time now, since we, uh, started this, we put forth to them a number of requests that we’ve gotten, and they’re the ones who choose the request.

So by the way, if you would like to choose the requests or, uh, influence this show in a deeper way, answer these polls and also, uh, have access to our podcast often before I even get them out because they get the raw phone calls that we do to put these shows together. And those are available that week, as opposed to maybe later in the week, when I am able to finish editing.

Our podcast and taking out all the stuff we don’t want everybody else to hear. so, uh, yeah. Uh, if you’re interested in having access to any of that, plus a bunch of goodies and our minisodes, uh, that we do, please go to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast and consider being a member. So thanks again to our patrons for suggesting children of the corn.

We’re gonna dive right into this franchise with 1984 S movie based on, uh, a Stephen King short story that showed up in Night Shift. But I believe was originally a published in Penthouse magazine in 1977. Mm-hmm you remember those days when magazines published? Well, do you remember the days of magazines, Craig 

Craig: yeah.

Um, obviously, you know, in 1984, I wasn’t, you know, a big. Penthouse fan, but, um, 

Todd: I was a budding Penthouse fan in 1980. 

Craig: But that’s that’s, that’s where Steven King got his start, was writing short stories and getting them published, uh, in magazines and Playboy, Penthouse, some more reputable ones as well, like the New York or The Atlantic, etcetera.

And yeah, 

Todd: but, but let’s let, I mean, let’s not sell these places short, if you could get something published in Playboy, like that’s yeah. You know, as far as a literary magazine or whatever, I don’t know. It kind of depends on how you feel. I only read it for the stories, stories in the articles. Of course, obviously.

Craig: No, I mean, penthouse though was, you know, kind of like Playboy’s dirtier cousin at Playboy Playboy, you know, I, I don’t know the younger people who listen to this podcast may. Realize that Playboy was a really pretty reputable publication. Oh yeah. People were not embarrassed or ashamed to have Playboy in their homes, you know?

No people’s dads subscribe to Playboy shamelessly, you know, imagine that. So it wasn’t. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn’t, uh, that big a deal in you’re right. Getting something published and there was kind of a big deal. 

Todd: Not so for Penthouse though, not, not so shamelessly, uh, subscribing to penthouse, that’s the one you had to hide under your mattress or 

Craig: that’s right.

That’s the one that you bought at the gas station and yeah, right. But anyway, um, that’s where king got his start and I, I love King’s short stories. I’ve I’ve probably said on the podcast before that I’m a huge fan of Stephen King period. I love his novels, but I’m particularly fond of his short stories.

He’s uh, Very skillful. And, and he has said on more than one occasion that he continues to write short stories because he feels that it forces him to really hone his storytelling, um, skills, uh, in novels. He can meander and, uh, draw things out as long as he wants to. And he does. And that’s 

Todd: fine. It really.

You either like it, or you don’t, some of his novels are better than others at doing this or not doing this. I don’t know how to phrase it, but like, yeah, some of his novels, uh, like, like I think we talked about this incidentally, we had a whole, a mini, so two mini SOS actually devoted to, uh, horror literature that we did for our patrons.

We’ll probably have more. And we talked about this a little bit on there and we talked about how I think I said in there I was a big Stephen King fan. I’ve read a lot of his stuff. I like a lot of his stuff. Some of it was hard to get through. Tommy knockers was one of them like 1200 plus pages of a book that was very put downable.

Although I enjoyed it at, by the end of it, you know, I really liked it. I felt like it was just what he, himself terms as, uh, literary elephant. Can’t resist. Well, you that’s spending four or five pages telling you what this guy’s thinking about. As he’s sitting at the bar, having a, a sip of his whiskey, you know, 

Craig: right.

The one that you just mentioned Salem’s Lot. Um, even it, uh, and some others, huge castes of characters under the dome, you know, uh, huge cast of characters, many, many, many subplots, all interconnected, but. Lots and lots and lots to digest in the short stories. He is forced to be more concise and, uh, tell a story in shorter format.

Uh, so therefore you, you know, there’s usually more focus on a smaller group of characters and, and the action is tighter and I’ve read, I believe all of his short story collections, which one did you say? This one came from night shift night 

Todd: shift. I loved that one, but there aren’t as many stories in that one.

I think as, as, as some 

Craig: of the others night shift is really good. Skeleton Crew is really good. I like them all. Yeah. And I, I remember this story. I know that I’ve read it at least twice and it’s a good story. Uh, but it’s, it’s grim the film actually cheers 

Todd: it up slightly. yeah, it 

Craig: cheers it up allows, allows for a, a much, much more optimistic end.

The, the end of the story and the end of the movie are, are. Very very different. Yeah. And I’m, we’ll, we’ll talk about that when we get there, but, you know, good source material, uh, to begin with, it was a pretty low budget production, and you can tell. Yeah. Uh, I read that initially they were initially they were given a budget of 1.3 million, but Stephen King got kind of pissed off because they hired him initially to write the screenplay and he did, and the studio wasn’t satisfied with it.

They didn’t like it. He focused too much on this, the relationship between the two central characters, I think the first 30, some pages of the script, which would be, you know, a big chunk of a film script was just the two main characters. Uh, Bert and Vicky in the film played by Peter Horton and Linda Hamilton, respectively.

It was just them arguing in the. Yeah, for, for a, for a very, very long time before it ever actually got into any of the action. And so they hired a different, uh, his name 

Todd: is, uh, screenwriter, George Goldsmith. Yeah. He wrote Hill Street Blues, Uhhuh 

Craig: yeah. And they hired him and he tightened it up, changed some of the focused onto some new younger characters, a couple of these children 

Todd: of the corn.

some of the children. In the corn. Yeah. And 

Craig: lightened up the tone a little bit, particularly at the end. And they preferred his screenplay, decided to go with it, that kind of pissed Steven King off. So he demand in order to keep his name on it. Uh, in order for them to be able to use his name in the advertising because they wanted to a, they wanted to advertise it as Steven King’s Children of the Corn in order to allow them to do that.

He demanded an additional $500,000 up front, which he has every right to do it’s his property, but that reduced their, uh, budget to just about $800,000, which really limited what they wanted to do. Um, and they ended up having to scrap several scenes that they had hoped to film and they didn’t have much money for special effects and 

Todd: it showed, oh God, does it show, I read an interview with, uh, with George Goldsmith where he was talking about this.

He was almost. A little disdainful in saying something along the lines of, yeah. So I called up Stephen King and Stephen King being Stephen King was really angry. I’ll just put it that way, that he was really angry about, uh, rejecting my, his script that had 40 pages of two people arguing in a car at the beginning.

And he said to me, That I don’t understand horror. And I just said to him, I don’t think you understand cinema it’s, uh, you know, horror is, gets inside of you. And in the book you can have these sort of like deep, uh, descriptions and, and, um, you know, you can get really inside, like even just like abstract things, like how oppressive is the corn, you know, and all these things.

And with the movie, you, you, you can’t do that. You’ve gotta show everything on screen. You have to have action. Yeah. It’s a visual medium. Yeah. And, and so you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta tweak things a little bit in order to make it work. I don’t wanna see two people arguing for 40 minutes at the beginning of this movie either.

No, at the same time, you know, I think that this worked better as a I’ve read it too. I think it worked better as a short story ultimately than it did as a Mo movie. Some of that has to do with the. That, uh, you know, the special effects are kinda lousy and some of the scenes that were deleted that had to be because I’m just gonna come right on and say, okay, first I wanna say I was a kid when I saw this the first time, same, this movie freaked me out as a kid.

Yep. Because of the concept, I was like, it’s, it’s about a town where there’s this sort of religious thing happening amongst the children and this religious thing sort of dictates that they have to kill all the adults and that anyone who passes the age of 18 must. It’s sort of like Logan’s Run, but in horror form.

And that freaked me out. I mean, I grew up pretty religious as a kid. So anything that you know, was like religious was like, you know, spooky and this idea of the kids sort of taking over and then like, they’re the keepers of religion or whatever. And then, you know, you, you have to die once you are, you, nobody can be an adult.

Like all that was just like, oh, freak. Plus the main character in this movie is 

Craig: freaky as hell. The two main antagonists, um, are both really creepy and the opening is very violent and brutal. I mean it, yes, it establishes, you know, it’s, you know, the first thing we see is a dry cornfield and this is clearly a very rural area.

And we see this, I suppose you’d call it a flashback because it says three years ago and we see the Grace Baptist Ghurch of Gatland, Gatland Nebraska is where this takes place. It’s a fictional city in or small town in, uh, Nebraska. Um, and the title of the sermon for the day is corn drought and the Lord.

So apparently they have been struggling agriculturally. And, um, that’s a part of, uh, what they’re talking about with the sermon and that also ties into. Ends up going on with the kids, but we see this is, you know, before the kids have taken over. So we see all the attendees of the church leaving adults and there’s one child narrator.

Um, his name is job. They call him jobby, which is cute. He’s played by a little actor named Robbie Kiger, who I, I, I guess must have worked quite a bit when he was a kid. And then I left the industry. I suppose I recognized him though. Um, he played Patrick in monster school. Oh, 

Todd: okay. 

Craig: Um, which I love that movie.

Of course. Mm-hmm um, but he’s, he’s super cute. Really small. I would guess maybe like six, I don’t know. Very small. Um, but he narrates this flashback. It was about three years ago. I was the only kid in church that day. The others were with Isaac out in the cornfield. I didn’t get to go. Cuz dad didn’t like Isaac.

He was pretty smart. My dad, after church would get to Hansens, just like always. Sarah was homesick with mom. She’d come down with the fever. Real sudden dad was worried. So we went to call mom first thing that’s when I saw Malachi and the others, I guess they’re meeting with Isaac was over. Hi. They racked him real creepy.

So apparently what has happened is this young kid named Isaac has shown up in their town. It’s not explained what, where he came from, what his origins are, but apparently he showed up and he started preaching to the kids out in the cornfield. And job tells us that his sister, Sarah is sick at home with a fever.

And then everybody from church gathers at the local diner and they’re sitting there and all of the teenagers in town start arriving and positioning themselves in places around the diner. And you see the teenage waitress. Pour something into the coffee, some sort of powder into the coffee mm-hmm and serve it to the guests.

And then some of the elderly guests start choking and spasming and dying. Apparently the coffee was poisoned and. The other teenagers, most the, the boys just start brutally slaughtering all of the adults. Yeah. You know, slicing their throats with knives and sides and farm instruments. And it’s very bloody and here’s little, teeny, tiny job watching his own father be slaughtered mm-hmm

And he says, this happened all over Gatlin that day. And the kids take over. We’re not given a lot of ex exposition, but through observation, we come to realize that this Isaac who is played by. This really interesting, um, actor, his name’s, John Franklin. He has a really distinct look. He’s only five foot tall and he has a very childlike look to him.

Apparently he had some sort of illness or disorder when he was a child that stunted his growth at which, which led to his very short stature and led to him looking very much like a child. He’s supposed to be a teenager under age 19 in this movie, he was in fact 24 when he played the role. And he’s just kind of spooky looking.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Cause 

Todd: I think, I don’t know. I don’t even know how to define it. He just has these. Spooky eyes and a 

Craig: distinctive, kinda spooky voice. He, he 

Todd: looks adult without looking adult in a way. I mean, right. That’s, that’s it right? Like, there’s a, there’s an aspect to him that, that that’s a little uncomfortable.

Like I looked at him and I thought this guy looks older than he’s supposed to be, but he still looks like a kid, you know, and a there’s a dissonance there. Right. Uh, and so I think that’s probably must add to it. And he’s looking in the window of the diner and he’s dressed in like almost full Amish gear.

Right. He’s got the black hat and the black, you know, suit with a little, whatever Ballero I guess. And, uh, while these looking on kind of grinning as these kids are slaughtering clearly under his direction, the adults in there. Right. And it’s not. Look, it’s bloody, but it’s not like we’re getting Tom Sini style special effects here where we’re seeing like the, the, the gore up close.

No, no. We’re seeing some blood splatter. We’re seeing some knives drawn across necks and sort of a little bit of the aftermath of it. But I would say it’s more PG 13 except for the content. I mean, except for the, you know, the actual gore itself is pretty PG 13. Whereas the, the fact that these kids are slaughtering, all these people brutally in there is very our territory.

You don’t do, you know, he was in Tammy, in the tres. He was Bobby. Yeah. And he also played cousin I in the Adams family, which. You know, you wouldn’t see his face in that anyway. Right. 

Craig: I, I had forgotten that he was in Tammy and the T-Rex, but I remember that we recognized him at that point mm-hmm and uh, I think I’m pretty sure that he returned for one of the many, many sequels years and 

Todd: years.

Yeah. He returned for children of the corn 6 66 Isaac’s return fittingly fittingly. It would’ve, it would’ve sucked if he hadn’t really. 

Craig: Yeah. The J you know, basically the gist is that, um, Isaac is the head of this religious cult of children who worship this entity that they call he who walks behind the rose.

And it seems to be based in Christianity, but it’s like bastardized Christianity, which is 

Todd: spookier, right. At least to me as a kid Uhhuh. Yeah. It’s so it’s a, there’s a Blay there that also makes it scary. 

Craig: Right. And, and there’s a scene later in the movie where, uh, we visit. The church, which was a Baptist church and all of the Baptist religious iconography is there, but it’s all been desecrated with corn

Yeah. And, and the imagery has been just changed and, and really grotesque and, and unsettling ways. I don’t yeah. Unsettling, unsettling ways. And, and I thought that, that it was really effective. It was, it was frightening. And you know, that, just that concept. I mean, the, just the way that religion can be used period, to influence people, I is pretty frightening.

Now I’m not bashing religion. I’m yeah. A somewhat religious person myself. I attend church regularly. I’m not slamming religion, but historically. Arguably currently it can be used to manipulate people, um, into certain practices or beliefs or whatever. And especially when you take something like Christianity, mm-hmm, ignore the real principle tenets of it and bend it to your will it, it can be very dangerous.

And, and that’s a scary concept and that’s basically what’s going on here. Mm-hmm and I think, I, you know, I don’t remember Stephen King’s short story. Well, enough to remember if that was his focus. I feel like his story was really just much was more of a monster story. This seems to be a direct exploration of the dangers of.

Todd: Religious fanaticism or whatever it, yes. Yes, it is in a way, but also like there’s an actual Demonn involved. So it’s, it’s not like, it’s not like this person is manipulating these people for their own gain and their own sense of power. I mean, that’s happening, but there’s an actual, like entity behind it as well.

So there is the element to the supernatural in here. And I think that’s sure that’s one of the frustrating things about this movie is that that is alluded to a lot, but you rarely see it and you rarely see evidence. They didn’t have the budget. Yeah. Cuz they didn’t have the budget. There was supposed to be a lot more of it and God like, I hate to jump the gun here, but by the time you get to the end where this supposed demon kind of reveals itself, it kind of doesn’t.

No, it doesn’t because it’s just a bunch, it’s like some weird, horrible looking special effects that it’s just like an ethereal cloud. Thing made in a camera, you know? Yeah. Right. But I would say even before that, you know, you have opportunities, like you could sort of show the influence of the supernatural in here, but you don’t really get that or when you do get it, it’s not very satisfying at all.

And I think some of that is definitely because of the budget and some of it’s just because of the way the story is structured. It spends a lot of time focusing on these creepy kids, walking around murdering people or threatening to murder people, or this couple that stumbles into town. And it’s just sort of, uh, I don’t know, man.

I just, I. I have to admit I, a lot of this movie I was bored. Yeah. Thinking, oh yeah, I guess they’re trying to be creepy, but it doesn’t really come across. You know, we talk about the effectiveness of the religious iconography, you know, kind of being bastardized in that church scene that comes later, which is true.

That church scene is quite good. But then, um, when this couple comes into town, we’ll talk about that in a second. A lot of the movie is them wandering around this empty town that I suppose is supposed to be menacing, but I don’t feel anything menacing about it. All I see is that dried corn stalk and pieces of corn have been stuffed everywhere, which yeah.

Which is so omnipresent that it’s almost a parody of itself and it’s almost a caricature and it kind of comes off as hokey, I think. Yeah. Okay. Like I got it, you know, the first time, but now it’s. Kind of feels cheap 

Craig: well, and though they never though, they never say it outright. Apparently what’s going on is that they have to worship this entity.

He who walks behind the rose. And if they do, and if they offer sacrifices, what happens is, uh, on their 19th birthdays, they sacrifice themselves. 

Todd: They get to die. Like that’s a, that’s a great motivator, right? 

Craig: right. But like, that’s how it’s treated. It’s treated as an honor. Like it’s your honor, to be able to sacrifice yourself to this entity for the good of the town BEC, and if they do that, then they have a good harvest of corn and they can, I, I think they’re like producing 

Todd: ethanol is this yeah.

I call it like these 

Craig: kids. Yeah. These kids are making ethanol, which is 

Todd: kinda weird. I have so many questions, you know, when you dive into the logic of this, there’s so much of this that you can. Laugh at like, you know, a short story. Doesn’t have to really dive deep into the logic. It’s just short and it’s done.

And then you’re, you’ve finished. Right. But a movie leaves you a lot of time to ponder a lot of questions. What are these kids eating? The only thing is just corn all day, every day, all the time, I guess, you know, like corn 

Craig: meal grits. It’s like, 

Todd: it’s like forests, Gump, right? Like corn gumbo, fried corn, boil corn, 

Craig: corn, corn Raiders.

Todd: they need to at least grind some weed at some point to make some bread. I don’t know. I don’t know, have a couple have some livestock somewhere. So, so anyway, like we said, the, the kids, they murder everybody in this town and then we jumped to three years later except 

Craig: for the, the kids haven’t aged. That was funny to me right over the course of that three years.

None of these kids have aged at all, 

Todd: but, but also like, I mean, the setup is good, right? Because you, you mentioned, uh, this guy has this, uh, sister named Sarah and Sarah is in bed, but she’s also like. While she’s sleeping, she’s also doing automatic drawing or something like that. And she has drawn a picture to kind of foretell the slaughter at the cafe.

And then, uh, we get what I think actually is great music. I, yeah, the, the creepy score with the kids’ voices on it and all that is just it’s 

Craig: perfect. The score throughout felt like a hodgepodge of it. It there in times it sounded very much like the score from pet cemetery and it, and at other times it felt very much like the score from the omen.

Yeah. Which the, the. Chanting the in Latin and, and stuff like 

Todd: that. The chantings cool because it’s like, you know, it has that religious element to it and it, that 

Craig: creepy, it was used to good effect. 

Todd: Mm-hmm mm-hmm so we get that music playing over some credits of this girl’s drawings, you know, in crayon, which are always creepy, right.

The kids’ drawings, but they’re sinister violent Uhhuh, and it kind of sets up the whole notion, the idea, we see, you know, the, somebody being hauled up on like a cross of corn and we see Isaac and sort of preaching to the kids in the field and they’re standing around with knives and they’ve slaughtered adults and things like that.

Uh, and then it’s three years later to the present day where, uh, Vicky, Vicky played by Linda Hamilton right. Of 

Craig: Terminator fame. 

Todd: Of course. Yeah. Is waking up her boyfriend Burton, who was played by Peter what’s the guy’s name? Porton yes. And he’s was famous for 30 something. He was in the, the TV show doing something that was quite groundbreaking at the time.

And he’s 

Craig: done a lot. I mean, he has a bazillion credits. He directs also. So, but very recognizable, handsome guy. These are, you know, two young actors in their prime. Yeah. Linda Hamilton just looks amazing. She’s beautiful. Sexy. And they’re in a motel, apparently it’s his birthday and what’s going on is they’re traveling apparently moving somewhere new because he’s just finished medical school and he’s moving somewhere for his internship and she’s going with them.

I don’t know if they’re married or just a couple. Yeah. I think in the short story, it’s made clear that they’re married. 

Todd: I don’t think they’re a couple because there there’s a comment made about commitment in the car that she kind of looks at him and he kind of like wears his eyes 

Craig: at. And, you know, we talked about how this movie kind of deviates, uh, in the story they’re unhappy and they’re constantly bickering and fighting here.

It does, it doesn’t seem that way off the opposite, right? They seem to be young and in love, um, and, and care very much about one another. And to be fair, you know, God, this is jumping back to what we were talking about before, but the, the screenwriter accused king of not really understanding horror cinema and no disrespect to Mr.

King, but I don’t think the screenwriter was wrong. Right. Stephen King is, is, is great at, uh, writing stories and novels. But if you look , it almost feels like the more involvement that he has with his film adaptations, the less good they are. Yeah. Um, mm-hmm I mean, look at maximum overdrive. I love maximum overdrive.

Because it’s, can’t be as hell. And I think that’s super fun. Um, but it’s not a great movie. No. Uh, another one, another one that I’m really a fan of, but that doesn’t get a lot of positive reviews is sleepwalkers and, and those were two that he had a lot of involvement in the ones where he’s a little bit more removed or takes a step back, seem to be a little better in quality.

Yeah. Um, and, and the reason that I say that is because this we’ll talk about how this movie has like 400 sequels when we get to the end, but it also has a remake. There was a made for TV remake in 2006, I believe. And they stuck much more closely to the tone and, um, plot of. The story. And so in watching that the first, you know, 15 minutes, 20 minutes is the couple arguing in the car and that was boring to watch.

And it made your two protagonists, really unlikable characters yeah. Right. Who, who cares? What happens to them? They seem like assholes so I think it was the right decision to make these young attractive and love people, because then you’re more on their side and you care what happens to them. Yeah. So, yeah, so they’re, you know, they just, they happen through, um, and we see that, um, job, the little boy narrator tells us that he and his sister don’t like Isaac and Isaac’s henchman named Malachi, who we’ll talk more about, they don’t like him and they don’t like what’s going on in the town and they’re not the only ones.

And they have a little friend, um, named Joseph who’s a little bit older than them, and he’s gonna try to run away to go. Help. And he goes running through the corn 

Todd: of course, job. And Sarah are like, why you’re going through the corn? It’s a bad idea. And he is like, no, it’s the quickest way for me to. Well, I don’t know.

Or the 

Craig: only way, yeah, I don’t know. Doesn’t make sense. No, not really. And then, you know, while he’s in there, the corn starts, you know, like moving kind of supernaturally and, uh, there’s like weird, like kind of whispering or giggling or whatever it should be creepier 

Todd: than it is 

Craig: it. I thought. Kind of creepy and then you see that there’s somebody else in the corn with him and that somebody else has a big knife and he gets stabbed, or I, I, I think it we’re told later that his throat had been cut.

We don’t really see it. We just see blood dripping onto the suitcase that he had taken with him. And then the next thing we see is the couple are driving down the road and they’re, they’re looking at a map. And so he doesn’t have his eyes fully on the road. And at one point he looks up and that boy Joseph is standing right in the middle of the road and they just plow him down.

Well, 

Todd: God, that honestly, this scariest part of the whole movie for me was that well, this is everybody’s worst nightmare. They 

Craig: were just lucky that that boy had happened to have his throat cut seconds before because had, had, he just happened to have been crossing the road. They would’ve been guilty of homicide, like yep.

Um, but, uh, they’re able the Burt, you know, being a doctor, examines him and says something isn’t right here, that boy’s throat was cut. So they’re able to alleviate their guilt a little bit. Like we didn’t really kill him. He was, he was pretty much dead anyway. So, 

Todd: but to their credit, they had to do something about it.

So, you know, they know that they gotta get this body somewhere and they gotta grab, and they 

Craig: know that something’s wrong. Mm-hmm because Burt also finds the bloody, uh, suitcase, which is a ways back in the corn mm-hmm . So he knows that something bad had to have happened. And he knows that blood clots within four minutes, and this was still fresh.

So it had only recently happened. And so whoever did this had to have been nearby and we actually see, um, the character of Malachi played by Courtney Gaines approach. The car in a really menacing way. And then we see Sarah get out of the car and she’s, um, scared and calling for Bert. And she goes over to Joseph’s body.

And Joseph is under a blanket, but his corpse sits up and lunges at her. At which point she wakes up in the car. It was all a dream. Yeah. But, well, not all, but just the, the part with the boy sitting up and they did actually hit the boy. I feel like at this point, since I’ve mentioned him twice, we should talk about Malachi.

Yeah. Malachi, the little creepy one. Isaac is creepy. Malachi is scary. Yeah, because he just seems. Sadistic. He seems to enjoy hurting people and killing people. He’s played by a guy named Courtney Gaines. He’s this redheaded guy who, if you were watching movies in the eighties, you’ll recognize him. He actually played a really sweet character in, um, can’t buy me love.

He was, uh, Uh, Patrick Dempsey’s best friend in that movie. Cute sweet nerdy kind of character in this movie. When I was a kid, he scared me to death. Mm. Like, I was so scared of this kid. And I read that he got, he won the role because in casting, he somehow got a hold of a prop knife and held one of the casting assistant hostage with it.

Todd: Yeah. Like what that’s in, like, I wouldn’t cast that kid. I’d arrest him. like, that’s crazy. 

Craig: Right. But he, but he is really, really scary in this movie. And he says, it’s actually one of the things that from his career brings him the most joy that people were so menaced by this character and this performance and that he continues.

People continue to tell him how freaked out they were. And he takes a lot of pride in that. But anyway, so now they’ve got this dead kid, they throw him in the trunk and they’ve got a, they, they just want help. Yeah. The closest town is Gatlin. It’s only supposed to be like four miles away, but they, they hit a gas station first and of course the gas station guy is like, what 

Todd: you want to 

Craig: do is to go to Heming for about 19 miles down that 

Todd: right.

Fourth there. What about Gatland? Galine there ain’t nothing 

Craig: in Galine. You mean there ain’t nothing in Gatland. Well, folks in Gatland 

Todd: got religion, they don’t co the 

Craig: outsiders and they probably won’t have a phone there, either SAR, Mr. I like to stay here and 

Todd: shoot the breeze with you about politics and stuff, but I got a transmission to fix 

Craig: and you get on that right fork there.

And you have been hemming Ford in no. Right. Coincidentally Heming for is also the town that all of the people in the stand were being drawn to. Oh, interesting. There are all these, there are all these connections in Steven King’s work, which is another thing that I like a, about reading him because he gives you all these little Easter eggs for his, I don’t remember what he calls us, his loyal readers or whatever.

He calls us. We come to find out that the, the gas station guy is, uh, he he’s basically, he’s not under the influence of the kids, but he’s threatened 

Todd: by them. Yeah. He’s kind of cut a deal. Yeah. He’s like the only adult around, right. Who, uh, Uhhuh, who they’ve, they’ve allowed to stick around to order to, in order to redirect people away from Gatlin.

Right. And he’s got a D he’s such a typical Stephen King character, right? He’s the, yep. He’s the good old boy, you know, down home mechanic guy out by himself and is only companion is his dog. And he loves his dog named Sarge. And he’s talking to his dog, but. You know, almost like, um, I, I, I think the idea here is that this was foretold.

This was FD to happen anyway. Mm-hmm, so no matter, you know, he’s doing what he’s supposed to do, he’s leading them away to the town. He’s doing a fine job away from the town. He’s doing a fine job of it. They even go, okay, they leave and they have every intention to going to not Gatlin. Right. But at the same time, the clouds are kind of rolling in and there’s a big breeze or the corn, you can see this storm coming up and you know, the dog is barking.

He’s at the corn he’s barking. And the guy’s just like, gets a sense of, uh, oh, you know why he’s shouting at the corn at people who aren’t there, but he assumes are watching him. I told him I did everything you told me to do. He’s starting to feel menaced at the same time. The couple’s driving down the road.

Even though they’re heading toward hemming, heard the signs for Gatlin are saying three miles away, two miles away, one mile away. And they’re like, somebody must be messing with these signs. 

Craig: Well, and, and somehow they get lost and somehow they end up in the corn. That’s 

Todd: so weird. Right? Like I 

Craig: watch this they’re on a highway, my God.

And then all of a sudden they’re like on these dirt roads that aren’t even roads like literal dirt. Dick even says that this isn’t even a road. Right. Like, it’s just, I don’t understand how they ended up in the cornfield. I think it’s supposed, I think the suggestion is supposed to be that this supernatural entity is drawing them there.

Yeah. Like you said, this is faded or destiny or prophesy or whatever, because, uh, Sarah, the one who has these prophetic drawings, um, she has drawn. Their car and, you know, figures of them arriving in the town. They had been trying to keep the fact that she could predict the future. They had been trying to keep that from Isaac and Malachi, but Malachi catches them playing.

He finds the drawing. He delivers them to Isaac, Isaac sees it and says, well, it’s, it’s the prophecy. These outliers are going to come in. Um, and we’re gonna have to deal with them and, and sacrifice them. And so it seems like this is all faded or whatever, and, and that they kind of can’t get out of it.

They, they end up just kind of going in a big circle. They end up back at the gas station and the guy’s like, you know what? , we’re just gonna go to Gatlin. Yeah. It’s closest. We, we can’t find the other one. We’re just gonna go 

Todd: there. Can we talk about Sarah and job for a second? I, I think there’s a problem here.

I think it, it doesn’t help the movie tonally that Sarah and job, I guess for three years have. Somehow we faded the rest of the kids just by staying in their own home. Well, 

Craig: no, I, I think that they are part of the kid community. I think that they just don’t agree with Isaac’s leadership. And so I think they just kind of go along with it, but, and they sneak off, they sneak off to their family home to do things that are forbidden, 

Todd: like, like paint and draw, 

Craig: play games to paint and draw and play games and listen to music.

Yeah. Those things are all forbidden. So they, so they are outwardly defying Isaac and Malachi’s 

Todd: orders. But I don’t understand why Malachi then sort of discovered them. I mean, what was he, was he just hunting for them for some reason? I don’t know. He didn’t know. I mean, I felt like 

Craig: Malachi, he seems to have it out for them.

For some reason I felt like 

Todd: Malachi, like the, the implication, the movie is Malachi discovers them hiding out in their home. Yeah. Because there’s no other reason, you know, for him to have. been in there and grabbed them and taken them to Isaac, cuz cuz he’s taken the Isaac. Like what do you want me to do with these?

Should I, should I do something to him? Should I whatever. And Isaac’s like, punish go let them go. Right. 

Craig: Yeah. Which makes Malachi mad. Right. He makes him, he doesn’t understand why they’re not being punished for do for disobeying. 

Todd: Yeah. And I think honestly like it they’re too cute and blase Uhhuh, you know?

Yeah. Oh, they’re very blase. So this movie, like the horrible things that are going on, they’re they’re, they’ve been three years, supposedly disagreeing potentially in hiding from this murderous they’re murderous peers in this city where their parents and all the other adults have been killed and they’re just like, oh, I’m gonna draw some pictures.

Oh whatever. And, and even the very unfortunate, I think narration like in the beginning of the movie. Yeah. It’s so sing songs. Yeah. It feels weird. Like, oh, you know, it happened on this day, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes that can be. Unsettling itself in this movie, it just feels dumb and outta place and weird.

It, it, it kind of takes everything down a couple notches, you know, like I said, when this couple finally gets to the town and they’re stumbling around emptiness, you feel like, oh God, there should be like sinister things around every corner, but there just isn’t. And I feel the same way about these kids.

Like, well, if these kids are just allowed to be themselves and play dress up and draw drawings and, you know, not really reflect upon or try to escape the fact that their parents and everybody have been killed and their, they don’t agree with all these murderous kids around them with this freaky religion, like.

It can’t all be that bad. Can it 

Craig: well, and that’s a, you know, job, um, narrates the first 15 minutes of the movie and then they drop that convention entirely. Yeah. That 

Todd: never happens again. You expect it never happens again at the end, at least. Right. As a bookend or something, but no, right. 

Craig: Yeah. No. I mean, and now we’re talking, you know, up to this point, we’re probably about a half an hour into this hour and a half long movie.

And they finally arrive in GA. And initially, like you said, it is very spooky because it’s like a ghost town. Um, but we see all of these kids lurking in shadows, lurking around corners, lurking, you know, in hiding spots. Like the, the, the couple goes into the diner that we had seen earlier and they think they’re alone, but we see that there are kids lurking and they have weapons and things, and they come back out and some teenagers are messing with their car.

And so they, they get in the car and chase the teenagers, but the teenagers have invaded them. And I actually did find the atmosphere of that. The rundown ghost town occupied by these sinister lurking kids. I did find that to be very creepy for five minutes. Yeah, the problem is it goes on for the next 40 minutes.

Yeah. And it’s a lot of the same. For, for the next 40 minutes when they can’t find anybody, they go, they say, they’re gonna leave. They’re gonna try to go to hemming for again. But they drive by job and SA uh, Sarah’s house. Um, and they see movement, they see the door closed or something. So they stop there, they go inside, they find Sarah, she can’t really tell them anything.

They ask her questions and she gives them direct answers. But with no context. So like where are, where are your parents in the cornfield? Uh, are they having a meeting? No, like right. That’s just, that’s just where all the adults are. Isaac put them there. Who’s Isaac. Uh, he’s the leader. yeah. Who are you afraid of?

Malachi. Like she gives direct answers, but without any explanation, so they don’t know what’s going on, like a fricking. Burt looks out the window and sees town hall and says, you know what, Sarah I’m just, or not Sarah Vicky, I’m gonna leave you here. with the little girl and I’m gonna go check out town hall and she’s like, wait, is it safe?

And he’s like, oh yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s weird. But it’s definitely, definitely safe. Right? I know like I’m 100% confident that everything is fine.

And so he goes there, she stays at the house, eventually Malachi and a group of teenagers show up, grab her, drag her out to the cornfield, tie her up to this corn, corn cross like a crucifixion or, you know, a erected her up next to this other cross that they had. They call the blue man. Call him the blue man.

Yeah, it’s a cop yeah, it’s a, which is really obvious. I remember in the short story. they talked about the blue man for a long time before you actually figured out what it was. Mm-hmm that it was a cop in uniform and then Bert visits, city hall. 

Todd: I, I don’t know, man, like we’re buzzing through it because there’s not, I mean, right.

There’s so little, I think this movie is a much better concept than it is a story as a short story with limited space and limited time, it works really, really well because the concept hits you and you see a little bit of it play out and that’s it. And it’s done. But with this movie, it just, you gotta feel at least an hour and a half.

And so you get a lot of walking around and sinister kids poking around, but not doing anything and, and chasing, chasing is happening everywhere. And then meanwhile, the, the, I think again, it’s supposed to be sinister there’s he who walks behind the rose, like is, is written. You know, almost like a little Bible verse or something, you know, written on in maybe blood on the wall or drawn in the dust on a car, whatever.

But you look at the cornfield and it’s just there, right? Yeah. There’s no supernatural anything happening here at all. It’s just these two. Well, there are 

Craig: little suggestions. There are little suggestions of the supernatural, but they’re kinda lame. They’re lame. The corn moves a little bit. The corn 

Todd: moves.

The dude goes into the cornfield to, to go after Vicki and as he walks there, The two or three stalk of corn in front of him part a little bit. Now look, if that shit had happened to me, like right there in front of me, I’m not gonna step in between it and go further into the court field, but he does.

Right. And 

Craig: then, well, he has to, I 

Todd: mean, he, he can just walk like the court doesn’t do anything else for a while, you know, like 

Craig: yeah. After he, yeah. I mean, he gets chased around town for a long time by the kids with weapons, he interrupts their ritual. You know, one of their boys has turned 19 that day and is gonna be, you know, offer himself as a sacrifice or whatever.

And that, that scene is very creepy. That seems good. There’s one girl. Her name is Rachel. She’s a teenager. She’s kind of leading the ceremony and, um, that’s all very spooky. And in this moment he kind of lectures them about bastardizing, religion. That’s that’s 

Todd: really silly and they’re, it’s really heavy handed.

It seems to work for a second, like the, oh, maybe he’s right. Like they never questioned this before. Right? Religion’s about love. You can’t follow religion. That’s not about love. You’re bastardizing it and oh, come on. Don’t be so trite here. Well, 

Craig: there’s a little bit, there’s a little bit of it here. And then later there’s even more and it’s even more heavy handed.

Yeah. Um, but you know, like, so he kind of lectures them for a little while, but then Rachel kind of gets the better of them and stabs them, but he’s still able to run away then lots more chasing. Then I feel like the, the next major part is Malachi turns on Isaac. Now I felt like I remembered this being much more of a thing.

Like the, the dynamic between Isaac and Malachi and all of that, really Isaac is not a whole lot of a presence. No, he doesn’t have a whole lot to do 

Todd: surprisingly. Yeah. He 

Craig: barks some orders early on. But it becomes very clear, you know, pretty quickly that Malachi is beginning to question and defy him, sees him, punish him, cut him down.

I command you. I am the word. And the giver of his laws, disobedience to me is disobey to him. Do it now. Or your punishment shall be a thousand times a thousand deaths. It’s more horrible than the last they are. Tard of your talk. Isaac. I’ve shown them what I can do. Cut the woman down. Put Isaac in her place and all of the kids are just like, yeah, so, so they, so they cut Vicky down from the cross and put Isaac up on it and then they use Vicky to lure Burt out and it kind of all culminates when they all meet in the corn at dusk, when this, he, who walks behind the rose is supposed to show up, I guess, to accept his sacrifices.

Yeah. Um, and, and in the book, in the story, This is a monster it’s not described in detail, but it’s a big green monster with glowing red eyes. They couldn’t do it. They didn’t have the budget. So instead they kind of tried to make it an entity that could like control the corn and control the weather. And then maybe also it’s kind of like a OID.

Yeah. traveling under the 

Todd: dirt. They’re trying hard. I mean, God bless them really Malachi pins, Isaac to a cross and lifts him up and birds out there. And then we get these cheesy animated effects on Isaac animated. Yellow ishness is like crawling up his body animated from the ground. And then he kind of explodes, I guess, in the whole, well, the, 

Craig: the cross shoots out of the ground, like a firecracker.

That was cool. Right. 

Todd: But it was, it was weird, but that’s out nowhere. And then that doesn’t culminate in any like, all right, you know, shoot the cross outta the ground as a firecracker. And then this entity is, I guess, taking a break while you know, the kids for a second. I mean, it, it just, it it’s like these things happen, but then there’s nothing more the entity.

And it’s more, these kids who could manage, it’s pretty to wipe out an entire town of their, of its adults, but cannot even chase down. One guy. Well, 

Craig: right. These two guys and Bert just bursts in and grabs Vicky and, and pulls her out. Yeah. It’s, it’s nothing. And, um, it’s like, it’s nothing. And, um, this is where he gives a really heavy handed lecture about how true religion, you know, isn’t violent or spiteful.

It has to be based in the love like it’s. 

Todd: But before he does that, after he is freed her, he looks at her, he goes, Vicky, get out of her. And she kinda looks at him and. Okay. And then she just leaves just leaves. And we don’t see her again for quite a while. 

Craig: and this, this is the point where the story and the movie completely diverge from one another, because in the story, the kids keep Vicky on the cross, kill her and cut her eyeballs out stuff them 

Todd: with corn and stuff.

Yeah. 

Craig: And then Burt finds her. He gets killed by the monster. The, the, he who walks behind the rose and the kids cult just continues on. But for whatever reason, they are punished, I don’t know why they’re punished, but the, the, he who walks behind the rose, punishes them by changing it so that instead of having to sacrifice on their 19th birthday, they get one less year.

They have to start sacrificing on their 18th birthday. And that’s cool that, yeah. I mean, it’s dark, it’s a typical 

Todd: bleak, dark Stephen King ending. I, I like that. Right. I 

Craig: do too for a short story. It’s good. Yeah. For a movie. Hmm. Nah, I mean, it, it potentially, it could 

Todd: work Bert tussles with Malachi, the seat kids, all of a sudden, seem to side with Bert, all of a sudden.

And then zombie, Isaac comes out of the right, the rose and grabs Malachi. And I guess he basically takes him out doesn’t he at this point? And he 

Craig: just it’s very quick and very simple. And, uh, Courtney Gaines who played Malachi, this was his biggest disappointment because there was supposed to be a big climactic scene for his death.

But based on time and budget, they just had Isaac walk up to him, grab him by the neck and snap his. And it happens in a second. You barely even notice what happens if you’re not paying close attention, you wouldn’t even hear the snap and that’s it. You just never see them again. And all 

Todd: these kids, you know, this cult of children that had taken over this town are just kids again, right?

Like they just Uhhuh. They just, they’re no longer threatening. They no longer have any aim or any, whatever. They just all run away with Bert suddenly. And they’re all hiding in a barn in, in a barn while the, you know, the weather is going and it’s like, oh, there’s insanity. I guess again, the, in the idea is he, he who he’s gonna unleash his wrath upon them or whatever.

And Bert flat out asks job, Hey, did any adult ever try to confront the Demonn before? And he’s like, yeah, that was the blue man. And yeah. And he was reading out of a page in a Bible and oh, by the way I have that page here is in my wallet. He pulls it out and hands it to. Uh, and, and so then from reading this circled Psalm or whatever, in there they did, he deducts that they need to burn the, the corn fields.

And once they burn the corn fields, this might kill it. So there’s this whole action sequence where they run out to the Gasa hall that the kids have been doing and try to get the thing fitted, but they don’t, they get a tube and they, they 

Craig: hook it up to the irrigation system, 

Todd: hook it up to the irrigation system so they can burn the whole field while he’s running out.

By the way, through the cornfield, doing all this in the cornfield, he gets attacked by three stalk of corn by the corn. Yeah. Yeah. and it, at first it looks all evil, dead style. Like the corn’s rapping around him and all that, but it’s like three stalk of corn, which then two kids come over and just pull off of him and he stands up like, well, that was weird and continues to do what he was doing before.

Amongst all the corn, you know, it’s just, it’s just lame. 

Craig: It’s just lame. I know. And they, they get, they get the gas sprayed all over through the irrigation system and then he makes like a Molotov cocktail and throws it. But not far enough, I guess. So job runs and retrieves it and brings it back to him is like here, throw it again, but do it right this time.

right. Mean, meanwhile, the underground entity is like chasing them. I read online how they did that effect. We’re running short on time. Um, but you can read online how they did that effect. It was actually very practical and cool. 

Todd: It’s a grab type effect. Yeah. Uhhuh. 

Craig: But, uh, so, you know, he throws them all off cocktail.

The corn goes up in flames, there’s this terrible, terrible, like animation of the spirit of the monster. Like, oh, it was like going up in the flames. 

Todd: It was like slipping into Japanese anime, you know, like eighties style, Japanese anime with this, this 

Craig: it’s really, it was it’s really, really bad. Apparently that’s it.

And I wrote in my notes and then the happy family walks away, Vicky and Bert and, uh, the job and Sarah walk away and they walked back to their car and, and this was not in the original script. They decided to do it at the end for one of, for one last jump scare. and Linda Hamilton went to, uh, the director I think, and said, we know the car is disabled.

Why would we walk back to the car? That’s stupid. And the response she got was, yeah, we want the audience to think you’re stupid.

so they walked back to the disabled car for no reason. And then I don’t remember why, but Burt gets in the car just like retrieve something. And Rachel, the scary teenage girl pops up behind him with a knife for one last jump scare. And she could have very easily killed him, but instead she shouts and he turns around and grabs her and knocks her out.

And there’s a funny line. He’s like, she’s out cold. And he’s like, what should we do? And Vicky’s like, we’ll send her a get well card from. Seattle or wherever it is they’re going. And it’s, it’s the end is so corny. Cuz the cute little kids are there and they’re like, giggling, like this was a fun night and um, what are we gonna do with these kids?

And they look at like, how would you like to come live with us for a night? And then Vicky’s like, or how about a week or how about a month? And they all giggle and laugh and walk off down the road together. Like they are just going to be this little happy family, the other kids. Right. like 

Todd: there, there are, there are two things that I, I just have to, I have to ask.

I know there are no good answers for this, but number one, how did this town without adults manage to stay hidden. For so long, did none of these adults have any friends or other family members or relatives that wondered where they were and came to look for them for three years? And the second thing I wondered about is, look, this corn’s gotta be harvested at one point, right.

Especially if they’re gonna make their gas. Aha. That means that this field is going to be completely bare and has been at least three times what happens to he who walks behind the rose when he doesn’t have cornstalk to hide behind anymore? Yeah. You know, I don’t know. It’s not a sinister in the. 

Craig: Yeah, gosh, you know, I, I, I remembered this movie fondly, me too.

I 

Todd: was really looking forward to watching this actually. 

Craig: Yeah. And, and it started out okay. You know, I was on board for the first half hour or so, but really once they get to the town, I was just like, God, this is slow. Like nothing is really happening. And then the climax is just really corny. It’s a mess.

Todd: It’s a mess. 

Craig: Greg. Yeah. It’s, it’s not good. It’s unfortunate. Uh, you know, maybe that just said maybe kids would still find it really creepy. Uh, I don’t 

Todd: know, maybe, but children would find children of the corn creepy perhaps. 

Craig: Yeah, I guess, but you know, oddly enough, this, um, film has spawned more. Sequels than any other Stephen King property.

If I remember correctly, I think there are 11 follow up films. There’s a, um, a, a horror anthology that has a children of the corn story in it. That is considered cannon, I guess. Yeah. I don’t know. And they went off, they went off in all kind of weird directions. Um, some of them take place like in the city and like, there’s a, like I said, there was a remake.

Um, there’s a, I think the most recent one was a prequel. I kept up with them for a while. Did you, um, back back, well, back in the video store days. Yeah. Um, when a new one would just pop up on the shelves, uh, I kept up with them. They were all bad. They were all terrible. Well, 

Todd: we have a bit of inside information on this because every, I, you know, I was going around the internet.

I was trying to, you know, get people’s different commentaries on this. And almost everybody says, oh my God, there’s so many sequels. And why? Because they’re all. Dreadfully boring and, and nobody can figure out why, but we had bill Oberst Jr. On here. And, uh, he told us why. He said the reason they keep making children to the corn movies is because whoever the right holder is, has to do a new children of the corn movie every couple years, or else they lose the rights to it.

And so they just throw these together. And he said, one of the more recent ones that were done actually was rejected. It, it came back and said, look, the series is children of the corn. In this movie, you have neglected to provide the two most basic elements that are required of a children of the corn movie.

There are no children and there is no corn. So if you can so they had to actually re-shoot scenes add scenes into the movie to add children and corn. Uh, just to satisfy their requirement of making it a children of the corn movie. Yeah. That’s how lazy it’s gotten while I was doing this research. Also, I saw that Stephen King had something to say about it too.

And I just wanted to read his quote here. He said children of the corn has generated more awful sequels than any other story in my UOI there’s children of the corn, two, three, and four, at least possibly more. I eventually lost count if my internet connection weren’t down. As I write this I’d check and see if there wasn’t even a children of the corn in space.

I almost think there was . I, the only one I was really rooting for was children of the corn meet Lecan because I wanted to hear that little Lecan guy shouting. Give me back me corn. I mean his cute little IR checks

oh, but I don’t. I, I feel like we’re just gonna leave the series here though. Oh yeah. I absolutely feel no compulsion. I’m glad we touched upon the series so that we could talk about it and thank you patrons for pointing it out to us and yeah, I hope we’re not disappointing. Those of you who really wanted us to dive into this 

Craig: well, no, that’s just what I was gonna say.

If, if, if there are any of you out there who are children of the corn fans and there is a standout sequel, um, like maybe Isaac’s return is interesting or something like if there, if there is one or if there are a couple that really stand out, let us know. Cuz I would, at least I would watch them whether or not we did them for the podcast.

I’d be interested in seeing if there were any that were worthwhile. I don’t remember any of the ones I saw being any good, but um, I think it’s about time. We got around to talking about the franchise, unfortunately. Uh, I, I can’t really recommend it. Unless you’re just kind of a Stephen King completist in the, in which case, you know, whatever, it’s only an hour and a half long, but, um, it’s really not very good.

it’s 

Todd: really not. Well, thank you anyway, patrons for suggesting this we’re glad that we touched upon it. If you would like to become a patron of our podcast, go to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. You can also find a link, uh, to there from our webpage, which is 2guys.red40net.com. Leave a comment about this episode or any of the other episodes that we’ve done.

See our back catalog. Uh, we’re available there. We’re available everywhere. Podcasts are. Um, we’d love to hear from you. We’d love to hear your suggestions of movies to do next. And we want to hear what you had to say about this episode and share us with your friends until next time. I’m Todd and I’m Craig with Two Guy and a Chainsaw.

Time for another tribute episode. Back in August, we lost James Caan. As Craig stated, at that time we became “contractually obligated” to review Stephen King’s Misery, starring both veteran Caan and a fresh-to-the-scene Kathy Bates. Sooo many wonderful things to say about this movie that we let it run a little longer than usual. Hope you enjoy!

Misery (1990)

Episode 311, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: And welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd

Craig: and I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, Craig, we come again once as we do often on our podcast for a tribute episode, where we find an actor who has recently passed or a filmmaker, somebody in the film industry and run out and see if they’ve done a horror movie and, uh, see if we can pay tribute to them on our tiny little podcast.

Which they’ll never hear. It just hit me, right? Yeah. Like we do tribute episodes. We should start doing tribute episodes to people who haven’t died yet. We probably 

Craig: should. Should that be good? I know these episodes. I, I, I like doing them, but they’re, they’re bittersweet because it’s, you know, it’s sad when you lose somebody, especially somebody who you admire for one reason or another.

Um, but at the same time, it’s also nice to have the opportunity to. To talk about them and, and, and show our respect and admiration. So, yeah, actually it’s, it’s been a while, but, um, we recently lost James Caan. Who’s the really prolific actor, probably best known for The Godfather. He had done some stuff before that, but that was kind of his big breakout role.

And, uh, I believe he was nominated for a Golden Globe or something, but he had done, uh, some things before that, uh, O other people, our, our, our dad’s generation probably knew him well from the movie Brian’s Song, where he played real life football player, Brian Piccolo, who tragically died of cancer at a very young age.

I’m not big into sports movies, but I’ve seen that one and it’s really good. And he was acclaimed for that role, also our generation and, and the generations who have come after us, probably know con as Buddy’s real dad on Elf. His, uh, resume is extensive. Done tons and tons of movies, um, from the seventies on, from the sixties 

Todd: on man.

Yeah. It’s kind of nuts. Yeah. When you look at his resume, it’s just insane. And he’s just, he, again, he was always that guy he’s oh, there he is. You know, it’s not like he was everywhere, but, uh, when he popped up, yeah, 

Craig: he’s distinctive. He’s, he’s handsome. He’s rugged. He’s very much kind of a man’s man. Mm-hmm uh, got a, got a distinctive look, a distinctive voice.

Uh, kind of a tough guy. I don’t know. I. I always liked him in everything that he was in recently in his, in his personal life. He was an athlete as a young man and he wanted to play football in college, but he couldn’t make the team. Um, and so instead he turned to theater and found that he really, uh, enjoyed acting and, and was quite good at it.

And, and was, uh, You know, well received by directors and audiences alike. And so that’s kind of what he stuck with. Started out in, uh, theater, worked on Broadway for a little bit before getting into some small TV roles, then film roles. He preferred to stay away from TV. He, he preferred to work in film, but he did work in TV from time to time throughout his career, you know, up until, um, the latter part of his career, where he sometimes, uh, worked opposite his son.

Who’s also an actor, Scott Caan, as far as more of his personal life. something that I learned about him before he passed away, uh, was that he was married. Four married and divorced four times. Yeah. And because of that, he had a lot of alimony and spousal support to pay. And so in the latter part of his life, he really kind of had to accept any work that was offered to him because he had to work because he had all these financial responsibilities.

So in the latter part of his career, if you look on his resume, he did some not great stuff. Mm. Um, he, he did a modernized version of Wuthering Heights for MTV, which I saw, which was terrible. He, he had a big cameo in an awful Christmas movie that we reviewed. I think it was called Santa’s Slay. Yes. He was just in, he was in the opening scene with a, a bunch of other people who were just doing cameos I’m sure for the check, but regardless, you know, uh, of, of some of those less than stellar.

Roles that he had to take for financial reasons. He still has a huge of work. That is very much commendable. And my favorite of his movies is the movie that we’re talking about today. And, uh, that is 1990’s Misery.

Todd: Misery the kind of movie that we normally don’t do because it is so popular. I mean it won Kathy Bates…well, it was Kathy Bates’ breakout role.

It won her an academy award for best actress. It swept up. I remember when this movie came out, it was huge. It, people talked about it. It was well loved. It’s a very, very. Mainstream horror movie, right? Uhhuh . Uh, and so, you know, we, we don’t usually talk about these, but again, when we get these tribute episodes, it often gives us a chance to do so.

So, you know, Craig and I, before we even started recording this, we’re talking and we’re just like, you know, there’s no way we can do an hour on this alone. No, but I mean, we’ll try, we’ll compress it. The point is we can’t just say everything there is to say about this movie and everything behind it in an hour.

So, uh, you can go to the IMDB page and go through the very, very long trivia section there you can get in deep with articles and, and interviews and things. Uh, about it later, it was a phenomenon really, when it came out, like everybody saw this movie, everybody, 

Craig: everybody loved. That’s what I remember about it.

You know, the, the people in my life who were not horror fans at all. And, and I don’t know, you know, this movie may be better classified as a thriller, but I definitely think that it’s horror. I mean, it it’s, it. Genuinely frightening in, in many places. And, and I absolutely love it. You know, I, I remember my mom and my aunts, you know, adults who were not interested in horror at all.

Everybody was watching this movie and, uh, I saw it probably at the time that it came out. Um, and as I told you, before we started recording, I, I couldn’t count the number of times. I’ve seen this movie. This is a movie that you can watch over and over again. It’s that good? The performances are just absolutely.

Stellar. And it’s crazy because it’s a, it’s, it’s a small movie in scope. There are really only two central characters. The vast majority of it takes place in one small bedroom, but it’s just absolutely captivating. And it’s captivating from beginning to end. It’s a really, really tight hour and 45 minutes.

Yeah. And it just moves like it is constantly moving. The whole thing, Kathy Bates, her performance is just phenomenal. I mean, she deserved every accolade. She got, she deserved a best actress win for this. Of course it’s a Stephen King property. So I was interested in it from the get go. Um, and in researching for today, I found out that that king intended this to be one of his Bachman books.

He wrote under a pseudonym, uh, for a while, Richard Bachman. Um, these were books that, uh, were a little bit grittier than his typical fair. And this was intended to be a Bachman book, but he was found out while he was writing this book. He was exposed. And so he retired the pseudonym. He said that, uh, Richard Bachman died of cancer of the pseudonym or something like that.

So he , he retired. I, I think he brought back the pseudonym for a couple books later on, but he published this under his own name. It was a big hit. I didn’t read it. Before I saw the movie, I only read it years and years after I had seen the movie as the movie is an excellent movie. The book is an excellent book.

Oh God. It’s one of my favorites of King’s books. It’s one of King’s favorites of King’s books. He says that the character of Annie Wilkes is his absolute favorite character that he’s ever written just because she was so nuanced. And she was constantly surprising him in both the book and the movie. I think that part of the reason that she’s so fascinating as a character is because she’s not just a monster she’s.

A sick person. She is a, a crazy person and both in the book and in the movie, there are times when you can find sympathy for her. And then there are other times when she’s absolutely nightmarish in her cruelty and, uh, her capacity for cruelty and, and to cause harm. Uh, it’s just so good. I mean, I that’s, that’s why we’re gonna have such a hard time keeping this at an hour because I could go on and on and on about this all day.

Todd: well, , well, the book holds a very special place in my heart because this is, I think I was in middle school. Maybe when I, when I picked this up from the library. And I brought it home and it was a summer. So I had a lot of free time. And one morning I just started reading it and I did not stop reading it until the book was done.

I read the whole thing morning tonight. It was the first and maybe only time I’ve ever read a book cover to cover. Literally, I think I got up to go to the bathroom, you know, a few times maybe have dinner and then I came back at it. It is so enthralling from beginning to end. So captivating. It’s just a really tense story with just seriously intense scenes.

Yeah. To the point where, you know, when I saw the movie, of course I was excited when the movie came out. But when a. You know, grabs you so much like that. And then of course, when they make a movie, you have to simplify some things, you have to leave some things out and all that, you know, it, it’s a bit of a disappointment.

Like I felt the same way about Jurassic park. Like, yeah. I love Jurassic park. It’s a great movie, but you know, everybody was just Gaga over it. And because I had read the book first Mike’s response was, yeah, it’s great. But it was a little more muted yeah, yeah. You know, just because, oh God, I was like there’s so like everybody who loves this movie just can’t understand that there’s an even better story behind this, that read the book, read the book, you know?

Yeah. That’s, that’s what I wanna do for everybody with misery. Like misery’s a fantastic film, but my God, the book is just 10 times 

Craig: more intense. And, and I think, you know, I think king had a really good, uh, experience writing it. It was, it’s a very personal novel for him. He didn’t reveal at the time what his inspiration behind the book was.

He kept that to himself for a long time. And I think it was not until the two thousands, um, that he finally revealed in an interview and, and said that he finally felt ready to reveal in an interview that this book, this story is an alleg, an allegory for his struggle with addiction. Mm. Annie Wilkes, the character is like the monkey on his back, his addiction, um, that kept.

Captive, um, and, and kept him from the people that he loved, kept him from the work that he loved. Uh, and that was something that he struggled with for a very long time, but he eventually was able, uh, to overcome his addictions as much as anybody can. I think, um, when you’re an addict, you’re always an addict.

It’s just about, you know, being able to control it, but he has, he has said outright that, uh, that is what the book was inspired by. And there’s actually a subplot in the book to, to call it a subplot is almost misleading. You know, it’s, it’s a big component of the book that Paul, uh, Shel. The author main character of the novel is a former addict who has only recently overcome his addictions.

And when he’s in this accident, which we’ll talk about here really soon, uh, and is being treated for his injuries, uh, he’s given narcotic pain medications, which he becomes addicted to again and, and struggles with that throughout the course of the book that’s removed from the film entirely, which is kind of unfortunate.

Cause I think that it was a big, important part of the book. Yeah. However, the movie plays fine without it too. It does. Um, and I think that that’s also something that’s, you know, so nuanced that it might be difficult. Portray well in film, not impossible. Yeah. But again, like you said, with any film adaptation, you gotta tr I don’t wanna say trim the fat, but you gotta trim somewhere and, and well, yeah, this got cut down a little bit.

Todd: You have to make choices and, and I mean, you know, a lot of different choices and this movie’s in good hands. I mean, William Goldman wrote the screenplay. Yeah. Uh, William Goldman is just a, an icon. I don’t know. The John Williams of, you know, screenwriting, you know, John Williams is just scoring William Goldman has just written so many big, successful, well respected films, uh, and has turned out to be fantastic screenwriter, but, and Rob Reiner, the direct.

Um, this wasn’t their first collaboration, but, uh, Rob Rener, you know him from spinal tap stand by me, which is based on a Stephen King, uh, uh, story, the body. Uh, so he was, he did a Stephen King, another Stephen King novel, you know, a few, few years before this then went on to do the princess bride Uhhuh , which is just, oh my God.

It’s one of my all time favorite movies and the book, which is written by William Goldman is even better than the movie and was written. I believe after the movie, we don’t need to talk about the princess bride, but anyway, Rob Bryan or princess bride, Harry met Sally misery after this was a few good men.

I mean, he was just one hit after another, and this is just one and a long string of hits that he had starting from the mid eighties up to the nineties. Really impressive cast and crew. Yeah. 

Craig: and Rob Reiner is, you know, a, a great director. He’s also a, he’s a funny actor and, and he has a lot of acting credits to his name too.

But this book was so personal to king, that he was reluctant to sell the rights to the film. He just kind of didn’t believe that Hollywood would be faithful to the novel. Um, he, he still had a bad taste in his mouth from Kubrick’s the shining, which he was not a fan of, but he had been really impressed with Rob Reiner’s adaptation of his short story, the body, um, which, which became stand by me, which I is another one of my all time, favorite movies.

Um, and king had been so impressed with that, that he sold the rights, but. With the provision that Reiner either direct or produce it. And Rob Reiner had had a really positive, uh, experience with stand by me too. And he loved this book because he identified with the main character, the main character Paul Sheldon played by James Conn in the movie is a, a famous novelist.

Um, but he’s famous for these really Puy like romance type novels, a, a whole series of them. I’m I’m thinking like, uh, VC Andrews, or, uh, Who’s the other one, steel, Danielle Steele, Danielle 

Todd: Steele, my mom read everything Danielle Steele ever wrote and 

Craig: right. That type of thing and whatever, you know, people enjoy those books.

They do really well. And, and, um, in, in the context of the movie and the book he has done very well, but Paul, um, wants to break away from that, despite the fact that he’s had a lot of success with it. He doesn’t feel like it’s what he really wants to do. He doesn’t feel like it’s a real reflection of him or his talent.

So he wants to break away from it and, and prove that he can do something else. And Reiner related to that, he was known really for lighthearted comedies or romantic comedies. Um, and he was asked, you know, why would you break away from that formula that you’re so successful in and do tackle something this dark?

And he said, because he wanted to prove that he could do it. He, he related to the character in that way that he wanted to break away and show that he was more than just one thing. Um, and I think that’s a cool connection. Also the script, God, I, I swear that every ALIST actor of the eighties and nineties was offered the lead role in this movie.

That’s Warren Beatty, Dustin Hoffman, um, Bruce Willis. Harrison Ford, everybody, every, every A-list. Yeah. Every A-list male star was offered this role. Um, and all of them, except Warren Beatty turned it down outright. And the speculation is that they saw the role as emasculating because the main male character, um, kind of ends up.

Falling victim to this woman, to some extent, at least is figuratively and lib literally hobbled by this woman. And, and they didn’t want to do that. Eventually James Conn was, uh, Warren Beatty was the only one. He was in talks to do it for a long time. Eventually he just held out for so long that they felt like they had to move on.

It was offered to James Khan. And, um, after the movie was filmed, both Rob Reiner and the guy who wrote the screenplay said that they couldn’t imagine anybody else having done. The role justice, uh, the way that Khan did. And I, I agree, maybe only because to me, the movie is so iconic and the performances are so iconic.

I can’t really imagine, uh, anybody else in the role, Bruce Willis was another, uh, actor who was offered the role and turned it down. He did end up playing the role on Broadway in 2015, uh, opposite Lori Metcalf, who is a brilliant actress. I, I would give an exorbitant amount of money to be able to see a film of that production.

But as far as I know, it’s not available to his 

Todd: credit. James Conn took the role for that precise reason. He said he thought it would be interesting to play a reaction. You know, a character is primarily reactionary, you know, for once when normally he was playing these sort of tough guy roles, um, tough, assertive people.

I mean one person’s trash is another person’s treasure, right? Yeah. 

Craig: So, yeah, I think that people knew that this movie was going to do well, Kathy bat’s role, Annie Wilkes, a lot of people were in consideration for that too. Roseanne BARR was in consideration, Rosie O’Donnell bet. Midler turned it down, which she later said that she regretted and felt really stupid about Angelica.

Houston was interested. Uh, Mary Tyler Moore really, really wanted it. can you imagine, man? 

Todd: No. 

Craig: yeah, there were other people that you wouldn’t expect, but. Reiner thought that it would be better to cast an unknown because he didn’t want people to come in with preconceived notions about the character and the, uh, the screenwriter.

I, I’m not sure how he was familiar with Kathy Bates, but I’m pretty sure it was William Goldman, the screenwriter who recommended her. Um, and she came in and she just absolutely slated it. She, uh, and con clashed on set because her experience up to this point had been almost exclusively theater. Now he had some theater background too, but they had different approaches to acting.

Um, she wanted to rehearse extensively and he wanted to rehearse as little as possible. He wanted it to be in the moment, you know, natural. Um, whereas she wanted to rehearse and, uh, they clashed over it and she was very frustrated and she actually went to Rob Reiner and to voice her frustration. And he told her, look, we’ll try to come to some sort of compromise, but take that frustration and use it, use it in your performance, use it in your character.

And I, I think that she did, and again, like I said, her, her performance just blows me away. James Conn’s performance is a little bit more subtle, but I think that he does an amazing job because it is when you’ve got, when you’re playing against somebody who is playing totally crazy. Totally irrational, totally unpredictable.

How do you respond to that? Uh, yeah, and I, I think that you have to be very cautious and very calculated. Um, and he does that very well. He’s very calm in, well, he, he puts out an aura of calmness in situations where I would be freaking out. Um, yeah, he he’s able to control himself very well. And I think the two of them together just, you know, it was it’s lightening in a bottle.

Todd: He comes across as a very measured guy, like a smart man, right? Like a, a person who, well, you know, and honestly, I, I, I, this may be wrong, but I feel like if you’re, if you’re a novelist, you know, if you’re a writer, you’re a student. People, you know, you’re a student of life and of character and, and you’re probably maybe more observant, more actively observant of the people around you and kind of what makes them tick probably a pretty excellent psychologist inside, you know, to be able to write characters and that are successful and believable.

And so it almost feels like, you know, he, as much as he’s not in control of his situation, because he can’t be because he’s just been in a car accident and, uh, he’s stuck in bed and he physically can’t really move or do much. He seems to understand full, wholeheartedly over time who she is, or at least what he does and doesn’t understand about her and how to measure him, his reaction, you know, mm-hmm, in order to keep himself safe.

And it’s just amazing how a guy sitting in bed. With, with very little in the way of gesture and physicality, just with looks and expressions and stuff on his face really gets this across. Like you can see what’s going through his head, you know, when he’s reacting to her and when, when she’s saying it and it’s, it’s, it’s very, very clear and it’s very believable and it.

Also feels very smart. So this is not a movie where like a lot of horror movies, you feel like these characters are doing really stupid things. Mm-hmm, , they’re in a bad situation. They’re making it worse by making poor choices. This is like a guy who seems to be making all the right choices. And that’s what makes it even more terrifying, right?

Is that still when you make all the right choices, it doesn’t automatically get you out of danger. And so, you know, uh, that’s, that’s, what’s so great about the movie, I think, and, and the story in general is just this guy is not an idiot. He he’s only in over his head because he is completely, uh, at the mercy of this crazy woman in many, many ways.

And can he outsmart her, you know, to the extent that you can outsmart a crazy obsessive person. Mm-hmm, , there’s a big X factor. There there’s a level of, of, of unpredictability when you’re dealing with that. That even though logically you think you do this, it should garner this response. You’re dealing with a person who’s not operating necessarily in the world of logic most of the time.

Right. And so, you know, it stabs in the dark, it’s a, oh, this got this reaction. Well, that, that teaches me something, you know, right. You just learn and learn and learn and, and try different things. 

Craig: Yeah. And you’re, you’re dealing with somebody who is completely unpredictable. You know, I, I, I read somewhere, some, uh, psychologist was asked about, was asked to analyze the character.

And they said that really, she is just a representative of a whole hodgepodge of mental illnesses, including bipolar, probably some schizophrenic tendencies, um, depressive states, all, you know, all kinds of different things, but she is, uh, just completely unpredictable. And in one moment she can be just genuinely gentle and, and, and kind, and, and.

The next minute, just out of her mind, angry and, and Kathy Bates plays that so well and like Khan, um, you can see things in her face. You can see changes, you know, they’re so subtle, but you can also see it happening. Um, mm-hmm, behind her eyes and just the, just the slightest alterations in her facial expressions.

Um, it’s just masterful her, uh, performance. And a lot of that also comes with the style that it’s shot in. Rob Reiner looked to Hitchcock, um, as his inspiration for shooting this movie for shooting a thriller. And I can see it so much in the style of shooting. There are lots of extreme closeups on things, lots of, lots of extreme facial closeups.

He even does a really cool thing, how he shoots Annie when she’s calm and in control of herself, she’s shot straight. when she starts to kind of veer into crazy territory, the camera angle changes so that it’s looking up at her. So it’s a little bit a skew and off and makes you a little bit uncomfortable and also makes her more intimidating because it’s almost as though you’re looking up at her as he would be, or as a child would have to look up at an adult, which puts you in a really vulnerable position and just makes it that much more uncomfortable.

It’s just so well done all around the plot is pretty simple. And there are some things that I want to point out because there are so many quotable. Uh, moments, but the plot really is fairly simple. It opens with main character. Paul Sheldon played by James Khan, finishing a novel on a typewriter in a remote ski lodge.

Um, when he’s finished, he has a glass of expensive champagne and a cigarette, which we later find out is his ritual. And then he leaves and he has been staying in this mountain resort. Um, it’s in, in or near the town of Sidewinder, which is where the overlook hotel. I is located in, um, the shining, but he’s in the, in the mountains and it’s snowy when he leaves.

But then as he’s driving down the mountain, the snow gets really, really heavy and he ends up crashing and his car rolls multiple times, um, down the mountain pretty far, I would say at least a hundred yards off the road. So that’s the situation that he’s in. After that, we get a flashback where we see him talking to his agent, played by legendary screen actress, Lauren BCA.

Wow. And this, and this is where he explains why he wants to get out of the misery business. Misery is the name of his series of books centered around this character misery chestain, um, it’s set in the deep. I, I think like the ante be himself. Um, and he explains why he wants to get out of it. Ms. Be Chasta, put braces on your daughter’s teeth and is putting her through college, brought your two houses and floor seats to the kn.

And what thanks does she get you go and kill her. I never meant for it to become my life. And if I hadn’t gotten rid of it now I’d have ended up writing up forever. Now I’m leaving for Colorado to try to finish the notebook. If I can make this work, I might just have something I want on my tombstone. And the agent says, and what do you, how do you think her, you kill her off?

Um, this is the newest edition that’s being published now, but is not on the shelves yet. And he says, and so he’s been in the mountains working on this kind of passion project, but the next thing we see is somebody prying him out of the car. If you hadn’t seen the movie and you knew nothing about it, you would assume this was a man because they PR he’s prided outta the car.

He’s given CPR. And then this person throws him over their shoulder and carries. Presumably at least up the hill to a car. Um, but it turns out when he wakes up it’s this woman played by Kathy Bates named Annie Wilkes. And the first thing he hears is I’m your number one fan. There’s nothing to worry about.

You’re gonna be just fine. I’ll take good care of you. I’m your, our number one fan. And even that alone, that, I’m your number one fan. That, that line is iconic at this point. 

Todd: And by the way, Lauren BCA, huh? It was, yeah. It’s so amazing. She even has that Mid-Atlantic accent that was so popular, you know, back in the forties, even now in 1990, just, just this unbelievable.

Like I just couldn’t believe she was in this movie. I mean, she’s got a very small role, but I was just shocked that Lauren McCall was still. Alive and looking good by 19 nine. I don’t know. You know, she’s still, is she still alive 

Craig: today? Maybe I have no idea. I have no idea, but I mean, she, yeah. I mean she’s statuesque and, and it’s crazy that she’s just gorgeous and then it really commanding presence.

Yeah. 

Todd: Well, anyway, he’s in bed and, uh, she, he has, his legs have been completely shattered and they look disgusting Uhhuh 

Craig: that was done with the, the effects they, they were done with gelatin. Um, I mean, they’re, they’re just, uh, completely swollen and black and blue and bloody and, and disgusting. And there was a whole, I think the whole lower part of his leg was kind of a big sleeve mm.

That he wore like up to his knee, but it, it looks, it looks awful. But it looks great. very real, but it looks, yeah, it looks very real and absolutely miserable. Like you can’t imagine the pain. Um, and he plays that well too. He is an excruciating, excruciating 

Todd: pain. It’s really pretty good. And, and Greg ERO was on the design team for the special FA well, he was on the special effects team or makeup effects team, I should say.

And Greg ERO again, we’ve talked about him several times in here. He’s a, he’s a horror movie, special effects guy. Um, mainly responsible for the walking dead stuff now, but, uh, yeah. Anyway, so yeah, she has reset his legs and she’s a nurse, right? So, yeah, she is not just a nurse, but she’s a very capable woman.

Like she’s like living on a farm. She has a pet pig. We are later introduced to that. She calls misery after her absolute favorite character. We learned that, you know, she’s just a devotee to his novels and she speaks about his novels in glowing terms. Like, yeah, she’s upset. She saved my life and, and then here comes an interesting.

We learned that she knows who he is and that she’s his number one fan. And she notices that he has another manuscript and she asks permission from him to read his unpublished manuscript. And I thought that was interesting. You know, this is a, he could’ve said no. And maybe things would’ve gone in a different direction, you know, uh, Because she probably wouldn’t have, you know, she didn’t seem like the kind of person who would, uh, she does some pretty evil things, but she doesn’t seem like the kind of person who, even though he said no, would try to sneak it anyway.

You know, I 

Craig: don’t think she would try to sneak it, but I think she would’ve gotten her hands on it. I mean, probably in some way, super for me, she gets, yeah, she gets what she wants. You know, she seems very nice and gentle. Everything’s a little fishy from the beginning. She tells him that the roads are out and the phone is down, but she says, she’ll take care of him and get him out of there as soon as the roads are cleared.

But she also admits he’s like, how did you find me? And she says, well, I guess you could say I was following you. And he’s like, what? And she’s like, well, I, I know all about you because I’m such a fan. So I know that you write up there. So, um, I, I kind of been just, you know, driving up there at night and watching the light in your window and, and, you know, thinking about what you were writing about or whatever.

So like that’s creepy. Yeah. 

Todd: She does constantly surprise you through this movie with the things that you learn about. That’s part of, what’s kind of a enjoyment. 

Craig: Yeah. I agree. A hundred percent, but it’s, it’s, it’s done in such a way that it’s not slow because the movie’s fast. Um, in fact, like I said, Alan was sitting right behind me and um, he said, man, it doesn’t take very long for her crazy to start showing does it.

And I said, no. And I looked at the time and it was like exactly at the half hour mark, because he, he does say that she can read the manuscript. And very soon after that she’s feeding him lunch and you can tell that something’s troubling her just a little bit. And she starts to kind of offer a criticism, says, no, no.

Who am I to criticize? And he’s like, no, you know, I really want to know. And she criticizes the swearing in the manuscript. It has no nobility. These are slum kids. I was a slum kid. Everybody talks like that. They do not. What do you think? I say, when I go to the feed store in town, or now Wally give a bag of that effing pig feed and 10 pounds that bitch cow in tell Mrs.

Ballinger. Oh, here’s one big bastard. Some of your Christ. What made me do oh, Paul, I’m sorry. I’m so sorry. Oh, sometimes I get so worked up. Can you ever forgive me? It’s silly, but it’s manic. Um, like she really freaks out mm-hmm again, the camera angle changes to show her strangeness, cleans him up and walks away and says, I love you, Paul.

Uh, your, your mind, your creativity. That’s all I meant. And I feel like it’s at this point that you can see in his face that he’s like. Shit. I might be in a little bit of trouble here. Yeah. And he definitely is. And it only gets crazier from there. 

Todd: Well, and at the same time, we’ve got this parallel thing going on where, um, the agent, uh, has reported that Paul was, uh, missing, uh, to the local sheriff slash police, chief slash deputy slash 

Craig: whatever.

Yeah. The only law enforcement in this Podunk town, 

Todd: the only law enforcement, the only really authority at all in this Podunk town, which he kind of makes light of in, in a funny way. I think actually when he he’s on the phone with her, and this is just like this sweet old man with his wife I love them.

Who’s his assistant. Yeah. They were just, just sweet. I don’t remember them in the book. I’m sure they were in the book. I don’t remember them in 

Craig: the book. Um, Buster, he’s the sheriff guy he’s played by Richard Farnsworth, who is an old man. Who you would recognize he’s been in stuff. He started his career as a stuntman, uh, like in westerns and stuff.

Um, but eventually, you know, started getting some character work and his wife, Virginia is played by Francis stern Hagen, who again is entirely recognizable. She’s been in a million things. She was also in the adaptation of Steven King’s the mist. Um, and, and her name’s Virginia. He is in the book. Uh, she’s not, she’s invented for the movie.

His role in the book is smaller and they wanted to bump it up. They wanted to make him a little bit, um, more industrious and, and smart in the movie. And so you’re right. There’s, there’s just constantly this side story of them kind of looking into things, doing some investigation. At some point he starts reading Paul Sheldon’s novels to see if he can get any clues there.

But these, these old folks, this old couple they’re ING adorable. Yeah. and, and hilarious together. 

Todd: It is an interesting thing, right. I guess maybe Goldman felt like, you know, you needed to balance, you know, provide a little balance here. Like LT, we start taking things too seriously. Yeah. Lest the terror become too bad.

Like now we’re gonna switch you over to this cute little old couple who have some byplay and you know, but still advance the story along well, in a way, I guess it’s not like they ever figure things out in the Nick of time. . They are providing this like, well, what’s happening. Like this famous novelist has disappeared.

Who’s doing anything about it. Oh, it’s this guy. Who’s got nothing else to do, but also ha you know, doesn’t have a modern computer system, you know, It’s quaint and it’s cute. And it also makes you realize, like maybe they’re never gonna find him. Yeah. Because it’s not like the FBI is pulling out all the stops to find this dude, you know, it’s, it’s up to this sweet, old couple sort of doing their best, but also it’s not their biggest priority.

Um, it’s almost becomes for him just like a minor obsession in a way. Right? Like just a curiosity. Maybe I can, maybe I can find him. Maybe things just aren’t quite right. He almost finds the car, but he doesn’t cuz it’s, you know, buried under snow later, they do find the car after the snow melts, you know, and a lot of stuff has happened.

He’s reading the novels, trying to get clues, which is a cute idea, but rather silly. Yeah. But then he does write down a quote from one of the novels, which later on, um, he, he, uh, makes a connect. Yeah, makes a connection. And that helps him, uh, kind of go, go out to, to her place. But, uh, and so there’s that investigative element 

Craig: right.

Which I think is a nice break from the tension because everything that’s going on in, um, Annie’s house is, is pretty tense, uh, most of the time. So this provides a little bit of break from the tension, but you’re right. It does also establish that if, if not for this older guy, gentleman who’s investigating, they might not find him because when they do finally locate, well, they, they locate the car by helicopter, Rob Reiner, cameos, as the helicopter pilot, I think state troopers kind of take over the investigation and you see them at a, like doing a press conference at the site and they say, It’s it’s presumed now that he’s dead.

Um, we will, we may find him, you know, when all of the snow thaws that is, unless the animals have already gotten to him. So the big, so the big authorities have, have given up, you know, they he’s presumed dead case closed. It it’s only because still really kind of. 

Todd: I thought this bit was a little hilarious.

I maybe unintentionally so, but I like, I couldn’t imagine a, an actual police person actually saying, saying that kind of thing to the press. I don’t know 

Craig: but the big trouble for Paul comes when Annie goes into town and comes back and is super excited to show him that she has picked up the, the newest, uh, installment of the misery saga.

And it’s called misery’s child. Um, now when he asks, well, if you went into town, that must mean the roads are clear and she kind of brushes it off and says, well, the main road to town is clear, but all, you know, most of the other roads to surrounding areas are still not clear. And, and the phone’s in town work, but mine here still is out.

She said, but don’t worry. I called your agent. And I told your agent to call your daughter. I mean, she’s being really shady. She’s really kind of brushing it off. Mm-hmm . And it’s obvious. Yeah, it’s obvious. It is. I think to us and to him, mm-hmm, that, she’s thrilled about this book. I’m on page 300 now, Paul, and it’s better than perfect.

It’s divine. What’s the ceiling that daygo painted. This is teen Chapelle. Yeah. That and misery’s child. Those are the only two divine things ever in this. and she introduces him to misery the pig and she’s acting a little nutty, but not necessarily in a threatening way yet. But then she talks about how she had a really hard time when her husband left and she thought that she might go crazy.

And that’s when she first discovered misery misery really saved her life. And she says to him that she’s almost finished with the book. We, you know, she’s only got a couple of chapters left. And for me, for the audience, such a sense of dread is building because we already know that he kills misery in this book.

Mm-hmm and we know that she is just pages away. from finding that out. And then in the middle of the night. He wakes up and she’s standing at the foot of his bed. And again, you know, the, the performance, uh, is, is just, she’s a nut. She says, you,

you dirty bird. How could you, she can’t be dead. Misery chestain cannot be dead 

Todd: any in 

Craig: 1871, women often died in childbirth, but her spirit is the important thing. And misery spirit is still alive. I don’t want I arm. I yell. No I didn’t. Who did no one. She, she died. She just slipped away, lept away.

And, and she absolutely freaks out and shakes the bed. When I say shakes the bed, she takes the footboard and like pulls it up off the ground and slams it repeatedly and is screaming at him. And the camera is an extreme close up on her face. And she smashes a plant off of a plant stand, picks up the plant stand acts like she’s gonna hit him with it, but instead smashes it against the wall and then says to him, I don’t think I’d better be around you for a while.

And then she looks at him and says, don’t even think about anybody coming for you. I didn’t call anybody. Nobody knows you’re here. And you better hope that nothing happens to me cuz if I die, you die and then she leaves 

Todd: direct threat. Finally, we get a direct threat Uhhuh and she drives away. And I remember this next scene, like from the book the most, you know, as being incredibly intense and it’s, I don’t think it’s the first time in the book that he tries to get out or at least explore the house.

But it’s, it’s definitely the first time in the movie that he realizes, oh shit, I need to take some agency here and do something cuz this woman is loony. So when she drives away, he takes that opportunity to pull himself out of bed. And I mean, he’s very convincing, you know, the poor guys still, um, his legs are useless and still trying to mend themselves, but you know, utterly gross and in splints and he falls out bed and he grabs a, a hair pin that he had found or just picked up just a little bit 

Craig: earlier.

The first time he can’t get out. Um, yeah, because he doesn’t know the door is locked. Um, so he ends up on, oh, you’re right. You’re right. Sorry. He makes his way to the door, but, but that’s as far as he can get. Um, and, and then it cuts, I guess, to the next morning. And she finds him on the floor and she’s calm again.

Um, and she gets him back into bed. She’s not as gentle as she had been before. I think she calls him a big crybaby or something like that, but she’s calm. And she says to him, sometimes my thinking’s a little muddy. I accept that. That’s why I couldn’t remember all of the things they were asking me about on the witness.

Stand in Denver. Um, what , excuse me. You wanna back that up a little bit? Oh boy. But she doesn’t expand upon that. Now what she says is I asked God about you and God told me that I have to help you. Get back on the right track. And the first step in doing that is she makes him burn his manuscript and he tries to manipulate her.

You want me to burn my book? I know this may be difficult for you, but it’s for the best

it’s, it’s really not difficult at all. My agent made dozens of copies. There’s gonna be an auction in New York. Every publishing house in New York is reading it now. So if you want me to burn my book fine, you’re not really reading the world of anything, then light the match, Paul. Yeah. And she goes off on this whole thing about how, um, when you wrote your first book, you didn’t make any copies cuz you didn’t think people would take it seriously.

And so ever since then, uh, you’ve been superstitious and you never make any copies. You only have the one copy. She pulls a charcoal, barbecue grill into the room. this is such a tense scene. She puts his manuscript on the grill, douses it in lighter fluid, but he refuses to light the match to strike the match.

And so she very calmly just starts walking around his bed, talking to him casually, splashing the lighter fluid onto him onto the covers that he is covered with. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a clear, I mean, she remains calm, but it’s an obvious threat. Like if you don’t burn this, I’m gonna burn you. Yeah. And so he does, he, he sets it on fire and.

It gets outta control and her reactions are hilarious. Oh goodness. Oh, goodness gracious me. Mm 

Todd: it’s almost like a little Tom and Jerry act at that point where she’s trying to put it out of the curtains. And as the fires, embers are flying around, she’s being kind of silly, like a kid, you know, goodness gracious.

Could, yeah. 

Craig: I thought that it was a miracle that none of those sparks landed on the bed, like, right. That’s, that’s almost unbelievable. 

Todd: It is actually, but, but the, the, you know, it’s just, she just bounces, but from one extreme to the next sometimes, and it’s convincing though, you know, it could, it is. Even though it is a little campy and it’s supposed to be a little campy.

It it’s very convincing. Like, I know, look, I mean, I’m not gonna say I know anybody just like this. Right. But I know these personality flaws, if you will, or personality traits and people, my, one of my grandmothers who is not with us anymore, but it would get very disturbing sometimes when suddenly, like she would actually just flip out of nowhere, something that somebody said or something like set her off and she would flip so extremely.

And so like insanely that it was scary. I mean, even though she’s not actually threatening, my grandmother never threatens anybody. You know what I mean? But Jew, she would just get highly emotional, all of a sudden outta nowhere. And this happened a couple times and it’s a spooky thing to watch. And you would never believe that this would happen.

In real life, if you hadn’t witnessed it yourself, you know, mm-hmm . And so, yeah, I completely believe this character, even when she’s bouncing from one extreme to the next, because, uh, peop some people are like this. They really are, but she’s dangerous. You know? Oh gosh. Um, 

Craig: yeah, she’s incredibly dangerous. I mean, at this point he does, we, we see that he starts hiding his pills.

He’s he’s not, uh, taking these pills, he’s hiding them in his mattress, but she sets up a writing desk for him. They’re in the room and tells him that she wants him to write a new misery book called misery’s return. And in this scene, she’s almost giddy that she wants to help him. Like, she genuinely thinks that she’s helping him.

Um, and, and she’s going out of her way. She’s bought him a typewriter. Um, and she got, she got a really good deal on it because it drops the ends and she bought him the most expensive paper. Uh, she could find, and it’s such a good performance because in these moments, her kindness. Seems genuine. And I think that it is mm-hmm , but I think that’s how unbalanced she is.

Um, in, in these moments, she genuinely is trying to please him. This is when he notices that a Bobby pin is on the ground. And so to get her out of the house, he complains about the paper that she bought him and says, well, it’ll smudge. And she says, well, it’s the most expensive they had. There’s no way that it’ll smudge.

And so he shows her that it does. And again, it’s just a great change in her effect where she goes from being giddy, to being angry at him for complaining. And she throws a tantrum asking him, what else can she get him? You know, uh, maybe a. The taper record or I don’t know all, and she screams at him and tells him that he needs to start being a little bit more grateful and she slams the ream of paper down on his shattered legs.

she’s incredibly dangerous. Um, and this is the scene that you were talking about where he does cuz he gets the Bobby pin. Yeah. And uh, in the book he talks about how he had written about people picking locks with Bobby pins and he had done research on it so that it would be authentic in his book, but he had never actually done it.

And so , he, he didn’t know if he could, but he, it both in the book and the movie he does and he gets out and, and this scene is in it’s still, every time I see it, it has me on the edge of my seat and my heart racing. I know how it turns. But it’s just so tense. It’s crazy. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s, it’s it’s nuts. I mean, he rolls his way out.

He he’s, he’s kind of exploring the house, but he knows he has limited time. He doesn’t know how long it’s gonna take her to get back. He goes to the phone and then not only is the phone not plugged in, but the guts are out of it. like he picks up the phone, tries to make a call and then is like, wait a second and picks the whole thing up off the table, looks at it.

And he’s like crazy bitch or something like that. and anyway, uh, as he’s pushing his way around and I remember this is a big thing in the book, right? He knocks a penguin off a table. She has this like little table full of tiny little tchotchkes. And, uh, one of them is a penguin and he knocks it off and he catches it before it hits the ground and breaks.

But when he puts it back down, It’s facing the wrong way. Mm-hmm , it’s not facing the way. So like we know, and later on, she reveals that she knows he got out because of this. Anyway, it’s a, it’s a crazy 10 scene because eventually, you know, he come, she’s coming back up the road and he’s not back in the room yet.

And he’s gotta get back in there. He’s gotta close the door. He’s gotta re-lock the door at the Bobby pin just in time. Does he get back behind his typewriter when she burst in? But she’s like, oh my God, you’re sweating. mm-hmm and you know what? This is a detail that a lot of movies just entirely miss, right?

Yeah. How many times have you seen this in a film where some character has to do something really, really fast before someone gets in the room and then as soon as they pop in the room that character’s right back where they need to be mm-hmm and they’re just like super calm and looking up. And I thought, oh yeah, of course he would be panting and sweating and still he’s smart enough to immediately reply my heart, my pills, you know, I need my pills.

I’m in pain. Like while she was gone, suddenly things got more painful for him. Well, 

Craig: no, it makes perfect sense. Right before she left. Right before he left, she slammed the, that re of paper down on his leg. Exactly. He probably would be an excruciating pain. Yeah. He’s a smart guy and it, you know, and so he seemingly gets away with it at the time, 

Todd: but this is a big thing, like you said earlier, that was a big part of the book that was missing from the movie is she basically has him addicted to these pills.

And then I, as I remembered, it seems kind of intentional. And so she actually, I believe in the book, sh she will withhold pills from him sometimes. Right. Uh, in order to kind of punish him. And so sometimes when he sneaks out. He’s also trying to get pills. Yeah. You know, that’s kind of like, uh, the secondary goal is to get some pills and hide them so that he can actually like, you know, 

Craig: well, and he did in, in this scene, he did, he stole some pills, but in the movie, his purpose for stealing the pills is because he’s been collecting them.

And he’s gonna try to drug her. I, I think he invites her to dinner or something and she makes dinner and likes, it’s like a romantic dinner. And he tries to drug her. He get, he actually gets the, the powder from the pills. He gets it into her. wine glass, but then ironically, she spills it. Do you think she 

Todd: did that on purpose?

Do you think she suspected something? I don’t 

Craig: know. I honestly don’t think so, but it’s definitely possible. It’s, 

Todd: you know, the way she plays it in the movie, I felt like they were leaving that open to interpretation Uhhuh 

Craig: I think so, too. So anyway, at this point, you know, he doesn’t have much choice, so he tries to write, but Annie’s not satisfied with his work because she claims that he’s cheating.

Um, and there’s an amazing monologue. This is the monologue that I always think of. Where she talks about how, when she was a kid, she really liked, um, she calls them chapter plays, um, or the serials that they would play, you know, before matinee at, uh, the movie theater, these action adventure things. But she would get really, really mad when they would cheat because, you know, they would always end on a cliff hanger, but then when you would come back the next week, the cliff hanger would’ve been changed.

So like a character who was in peril, uh, the next week, they would show that at the last second they had gotten out of peril or whatever, and it really pissed her off because she thought that that was cheating and it’s a great. Monologue. She just delivers it. It’s so manic and she gets so worked up mm-hmm

But at the end of it, she tells him misery was buried in the ground at the end, Paul, so you’ll have to start there. Um, so he tries again and she’s, she’s absolutely thrilled. That’s when they have the dinner, I think. And then, then he starts writing feverishly and, and he’s, he’s pounding it out. Like he’s really getting it done.

Buster is still doing research. He finds articles in archives, like, you know, library research that show that, uh, Annie had been a nurse at a hospital where elderly people and infants had died mysteriously and she had been charged and he finds the quote from the book that had stuck out to him. She had used that as part of her defense.

It was something about. There is a justice higher than that of man, I will be judged by him or something like that. And she had quoted that directly, which kind of turns him on to her. Well, it’s a nice 

Todd: little coincidence. 

Craig: yeah, right. It is very coincidental then, you know, she has like this depressive episode, there’s a storm and she has this weird depressive episode where she talks to him and she’s clearly in a bad way.

She says that she knows that their time together is coming to an end that the book is almost done and his legs are getting better and she knows he’ll wanna leave. He says, why would I wanna leave? I like it here. And she says, well, that’s really nice of you to say that. I don’t know if I entirely believe it, which I just think is such a great line.

and then she pulls a gun out of her, her robe, and just looks at him and says she has this. And she’s like, I have this gun sometimes I think about using it and then she goes, I better go. I may put bullets in it, like. I’m starting to wonder as the audience, how is he going to get out of this? It’s not, she’s not gonna let him go.

You know, there, there’s no way she’s gonna let him go. Mm-hmm 

Todd: is isn’t this, when she kind of more or less sort of tells him that she loves him, like more than just his 

Craig: books. Yeah. And, and I, she says something like, I know you can’t love me or, or something like that. Yeah. He gets out again and he gets a knife.

She in, in the middle of the night, um, sedates him with an injection and then he wakes up and he is tied to the bed. Hmm. And this is maybe the most notorious scene. This is what people were talking about and what people still talk about to this day. She tells him that she knows he’s been getting out. She she’s known for a while.

She knew because of the penguin. Why did she choose now to reveal it? Presumably, because she noticed that the knife was missing, I guess, but she tells him that she can’t have him getting out and moving around. And she says, and I know you probably saw my scrapbook, which he did, which had, you know, all of this stuff about her being accused of these murders and stuff.

And then she says, I can’t have you getting out anymore. And she said the way that they stopped, um, thieves in the diamond mines back in the day was they needed them to still work, but they couldn’t have them, you know, running away with their stuff. Um, so they would hobble them and, uh, she puts a big piece of wood between his ankles and uses a sledge hammer to break both of his ankles in the book.

She cuts off his left foot. Yeah. And the screenwriter wanted to write this. Screenplay because of that scene. And he wrote it the way that it was done in the book, Rob Reiner thought it was too much. He thought it was too gory, too violent. And so they went with the hobbling instead and the screenwriter was disappointed until he saw the film.

And then he said you were right. Yeah. It’s, it’s 

Todd: just as effective. Reiners seemed to think that that would sort of destroy what little sympathy you might have with her. Mm. I don’t know. I mean, that’s also pretty bad. Like I would have a similar reaction, I suppose, that if she chopped off his foot, I can’t imagine him being all that different, but it, it, it is in a way almost worse 

Craig: to be honest.

Oh, well, you it’s excruciating to watch and 

Todd: you actually get to see his foot, the first foot, you know, completely bend. I mean, it almost looks like she’s practically chopped it off and you know, here’s the irony here. I mean, this is how, you know, this woman is nuts. She MedEd his legs before yeah. Right. But she’s perfectly willing to break them again, you know?

Absolutely. If it serves her knees and so, you know, it’s, it’s a horrible, horrible scene. Yeah, you’re right. Everybody talks about it. James 

Craig: con attended a screening with Rob Reiner and they sat next to each other. And when the hobbling happened, James Conn turned to Rob Reiner and said, you are a sick

It is, it is brutal. And at this point, uh, he, he just shows open disdain towards her, which is, is kind of funny. Mm. But, but Buster is on to her. He goes to the general store and he asks about her. And, um, the general store guy gives, uh, him information that she has bought a typewriter in paper. And, uh, so he knows something’s.

so he heads up there and when Annie hears him coming, she bursts into Paul’s room, injects him again, and then dumps him down the seller stairs. And there’s a scene where, uh, she lets Buster in and she’s being nice to him. And she says that she’s Paul Sheldon’s biggest fan. And she demonstrates that by telling everything she knows about him, but she tells him, and it makes me wonder if this has been her plan for a while.

She tells Buster that God told her to be Paul’s replacement. That, um, because she’s his biggest fan. She should go on telling misery’s stories as though she were Paul Sheldon. And I wonder if at this point that is her plan. Mm-hmm , she’s gonna get him to write this book and then she’s gonna take the credit for it.

I think it was in the early stages of the novel, um, king was going to have. She was gonna have him write the book and then she was gonna kill him and bind the the book in his skin and feed the rest and feed the rest of his body to the pig. 

Todd: oh my God. 

Craig: no way. Yeah, but no, you almost want Buster not to find him.

Um, and it seems like that’s gonna happen. But at the very last second, Paul is able to knock over that barbecue grill down in the basement. And Buster hears comes back in the house, opens the cellar door, sees him, says Mr. Sheldon, and then his chest blows out. She has shot him from behind with a shotgun and he stumbles down the stairs.

And it’s sad cuz he is a really likable character. Yeah. Um, but it seemed kind of inevitable and it raises the stakes even more. I mean, you knew they were high, but this woman is clearly homicidal. And at this point she says, Well, that’s, it there’ll be more people coming. You know, our, our time is over and she’s going to kill them both in that moment, but he charms her and convinces her to let him finish the book.

Um, he says, I’m almost done. I can finish it tonight. And then we can go together. And that leads up to the climax, which is so satisfying. 

Todd: Yeah. I think he’s at his typewriter. He finishes the last bit. She’s sitting there reading it. He tells her he is done 

Craig: well, but he, he, he says, I’m almost done. She doesn’t read, she doesn’t get to read the last few pages, but he says, go ahead, go ahead and go get the stuff, the champagne and the cigarette.

Cause it it’s his ritual. And so she goes, while she’s gone, well, she comes back and she’s like, did I do good? And again, it’s, you know, she’s being kind and trying to please him, it’s almost sympathetic. And he says, you did great, except for one thing, um, this time we’re gonna need two champagne glasses and, and, huh, you know that her little heart is just all a flutter and she goes to get it while she’s gone.

He douses the new manuscript in, um, lighter fluid, which he had gotten from the seller, cuz the barbecue girl was down there. And when she comes back, he tauts her and it’s just delicious. Like he taunts her. Remember how for all those years nobody knew who misery’s real father was or if they’d ever be reunited it’s all right here.

Does she finally marry? I or will it be win thorn? It’s all right here. Paul you can’t. Why not? I learn it from you and he lights it on fire. 

Todd: She tries really, really hard to put it out, which puts her right up by the desk. And he picks up that typewriter, which he had been working out with actually earlier Uhhuh he’d been lifting it, you know, when she wasn’t in the room to just build up his arm strength and he wax her on the head with a typewriter, which I would’ve thought would’ve killed her.

Craig: Oh, it surely would’ve. Yeah, 

Todd: it’s a. Typewriter. Uh, and then, you know, he falls down, they have this, just, they just have this fight and I remembered the book. Also just being extremely violent at this, this point where it’s just a fight for your life thing. And, you know, we know that she is a very capable and strong person Uhhuh.

She carried this guy all the way to the house and has been taken care of him. Um, and so, you know, it’s believable as well that she’s a, a formidable foe and 

Craig: he’s still compromised, you know, he can’t walk. 

Todd: Yeah. So they’re crawling and they’re like, they, they crawl, he crawls across, he gouges her eyes. Um, then she, you know, falls back and the gun kind of goes scattering, but she gets the gun and, and shoots him in the shoulder.

He gets down and tackles her and then he picks up the ashes from the book and is like, shoves them down. Her of her mouth. 

Craig: You hate it. 

Todd: yeah. Stupid bitch is so great. 

Craig: He trips her and she hits her head on the typewriter. W the, it, I can’t even criticize it, but it’s, it is clearly a dummy that the, that hits the typewriter.

But yeah, it’s brutal, nonetheless, you know, she she’s seemingly dead that he starts to crawl away, but she’s not dead. You know, she she’s back, she jumps on his back, but he grabs like an iron door stop. That’s a, a pig and he hits her in the head with it and then just punches her right in the face with it, which would’ve just destroyed her face.

Todd: Yeah. It’s this is how, you know, it’s a horror movie is because we have the, the final at the end. Uh, you think he’s, she’s dead, but she’s not jump scare thing. And, and it’s, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of ironic, of course, right. That she gets, cuz her pig was named misery and I think. Pace supposed to be like, you know, this ends up becoming her downfall.

I guess that was a door. Yeah. Doorstop. It seems oddly placed very conveniently placed for where they are 

Craig: the case. Yeah. I mean, it’s kind of near the front door. Um, it’s right outside his room, which is near the front door. Sure. Um, but it does kill her, but, and then she just collapses on top of him. And again, she’s a, a big woman so I can only imagine it was a struggle for him.

And who knows how he got out of there. I guess eventually somebody would’ve realized the sheriff was gone and maybe made some connections, but 

Todd: Sheriff’s wife 

Craig: maybe came by into maybe who knows, but then we get an end cap. It’s 18 months later, he’s at lunch with his agent. He has published a new book, you know, presumably.

The book that he had written before and she had made him burn. The agent says, it’s, it’s great. And everybody loves it. And he’s like, well, that’s great that everybody loves it. But I wrote it for myself. Um, the agent says, well, you know, would you ever consider writing about what happened up in that cabin?

And he’s like, uh, you’re asking me if I would ever consider writing about the most horrible thing that’s ever happened to me. Absolutely not. And he says that even though he knows she’s dead, he still sometimes feels like she’s there. And you see this waitress coming around, pushing it. Dessert card. And it’s her, it’s Kathy Bates and he’s just looking at her.

But then as she approaches, it’s not her, it’s just another waitress who says, are you Paul Sheldon? And he says, yeah. And she says, I’m your number one fan. And then it just shows him smiling up at her and it goes, uh, to black. And that’s the end. Something that I didn’t remember about the book was that in the book he wrote misery’s return.

But then when he burned it at the end, it was a trick. He made her think he was burning it, but he really didn’t. And after he killed her and got away, he published it and they changed it for the movie. And I read something, I don’t know who it was that speculated this, but somebody speculated that maybe Steven King consciously or subconsciously.

you do have to kind of keep giving your readers what they expect from you. Mm. And, and maybe, you know, that’s why his initial creation, the author and the novel maybe came to that realization. But I like in the book that he wrote the whole thing and he taunted her with it and then he burned it. Uh, yeah, I think that’s more fitting.

Todd: Yeah. It’s, it’s a, it’s a slightly odd ending, but it’s not, I mean, it it’s as good a way to end it as any, I suppose. He could always have another crazy fan, right? yeah. You know, famous people have to deal with this all the time. 

Craig: So, uh, right. And Stephen King has said that too, that, um, he, he has crazy fans and, and this character is kind of an amalgamation of all of those people that he’s encountered over the years.

And I think that, you know, that’s unfortunately part of the price of fame. Mm-hmm , there are sick people out there who become obsessed and genuinely potentially dangerous. There was a series based on Stephen King’s work, uh, on Hulu called castle rock. And the second season served as a prequel. Told, uh, Annie Wilkes’s story before the events of this movie, it critically, it was not received well at all.

The first season was well received and then the second season wasn’t, and then it didn’t get picked up for a third season. I loved it. I loved the Annie Wilkes origin story that they told in season two. And if you are a fan of this movie, I highly recommend it. But, but you know, I can’t as predicted we’ve gone well over our usual time, but I don’t care because this, I feel like this movie merits it.

Uh, it’s an excellent, excellent movie. I think that it appeals to a wide. Much wider than the typical stuff that we do. And you know, if you are a, a fan of thrillers of suspense, of interesting character studies, J just good acting. Yeah. If, if you, uh, are impressed by good acting, you know, both Kathy Bates and James con give just amazing, amazing performances in this film.

And I, I can go back to it every single time I watch it. I love it. And every single time I watch it, I am just blown away by how good it is every time. 

Todd: You know, doing a horror podcast. This is, this is not the first time we’ve done a movie. That’s kind of like this, right. Somebody being held against their will, um, by a crazy person who has to fight for their way out, you know, mm-hmm and this movie itself could have been kind of a low budget.

Can’t be forgettable film, but in the hands of all these people, um, it really elevates actually the material’s already quite good. The Roger corpsman directed misery, would’ve been very different. from the Rob Reiner directed William Goldman written and, uh, Kathy Bates and James con acted misery that we get.

So it’s, it’s really one. One of those points, you know, where, where everything just comes together beautifully and works really well because everybody is very capable and at kind of at the, you know, top 

Craig: of their craft, I’ve seen it compared to whatever happened to baby Jane. Um, and there really are a lot of similarities that movie, I, I love that movie, but it’s really campy.

Um, so I think that this movie could have been too, I’ve even seen this, uh, compared to saw where like you’ve got somebody in captivity being tormented by a captor mm-hmm so there, there are, there are lots of other movies like this, but, uh, I think this one is just special. Uh, I think everything came together.

The, you know, like Reiner, um, said I seeing James Conn in it. I really, I can’t imagine anybody else in the role. It just, it. It just feels right. Everything just kind of, it seems like everything came together perfectly and it just, it just worked. It’s 

Todd: a great film. It’s a great film. Go out and check it out.

If you haven’t already and read the book, man, read the fricking book. If you’re a reader, this is a fantastic book. 

Craig: Yeah. And you know, again, James con, as an actor, I have, uh, a ton of respect for him. I think that, uh, incredibly, incredibly talented was able to shine in a variety of different types of roles.

Um, and, uh, I think he’s, he’s worthy of a lot of admiration and praise and it’s unfortunate that he’s gone, but. As I always say his work speaks for itself. 

Todd: Absolutely. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. If you enjoyed it, you may want to consider becoming a patron of this podcast.

Please go to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. Or go to our website at 2guys.red40net.com and follow the link there to our Patreon page. We offer for just a, a very small amount per month, you can help support us and keep us going with this as well as yet to get a few goodies, extra, such as our mini SOS that we put out.

Uh, several times a month, we have a, an interview of us, a 90 minutes of personal questions that our good friend Heather is given as well as, uh, we post the raw unedited versions of our phone calls every week. Uh, in case you’re interested in that, please consider going over and supporting our podcast.

Also, uh, you can find us on Twitter. You can find us on Facebook, please let us know what you thought of this episode, as well as any other movies you’d like us to do in the future. We will get back to doing requests. Very, very, very good until next time. I’m Todd and I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This may be our freshest episode yet: This movie was released this very month on NBC’s Peacock network. With a cast of stars, a blockbuster writer/director, and a unique setting – a “conversion camp” for teens – there is a lot to unpack with this unique and timely take on the summer camp slasher.

Also, FYI, it’s pronounced, “They Slash Them”. Cute, eh?

They/Them (2022)

Todd: And, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, we’re going pretty modern today after doing a whole bunch of older films. This is 2022. I actually, I believe this movie came out on August 5th. Believe it or not. So this is fresh off the boat as it were. And Craig, you chose this movie. This is, They/Them. A horror movie that premiered on the peacock network, which I believe is NBC’s streaming service.

Yep. I don’t think this made it to the theaters. My understanding. No, it didn’t. So it’s just a, it’s a tell made for television movie, but, uh, the pedigree is quite interesting. Um, the director and writer of the film is John Logan. Uh, this is the first movie he’s directed, but, uh, he got his, uh, start in Hollywood as a screenwriter with the story for any given Sunday, went on to do Gladiator , uh, The Last Samurai, The Aviator, uh, Hugo, Skyfall, Specter.

I mean, this guy, uh, he’s gonna be well off for, uh, quite a while. Um, based on his residuals from all of these films that he’s written. That are big time Hollywood blockbusters, but this movie’s a little different. I actually, I thought the title was quite cute. Yeah. They slash them. This movie deals with a, um, Like basically what you would call a, a conversion camp Uhhuh for people who are, uh, transgendered gay and, uh, they slash them.

It’s a slasher movie or, yeah, I would say it’s supposed to be a slasher movie. Yeah. 

Craig: yeah. I think they kind of forgot. Like 

Todd: yeah. Tell like the ad and like, oh shoot. And they were like, 

Craig: oh shit. Some people need to die. Yeah. wait, wait, wait. This is a horror movie. And, and that’s, that’s not an outright criticism, but.

First of all. I don’t think that this was made specifically for a streaming service. I have a feeling that they premiered it on a streaming service because they didn’t anticipate that it would have the kind of widespread appeal that would be worth putting it in theaters. I don’t think that they thought that they would get the return on it if they put it in theater.

So it went straight to streaming. It’s probably fair. Yeah, because it, it feels like a theatrical release it’s well made. It’s got a, I would say a couple, but at least one big name attached, you know, Kevin bacon plays a, a very, very prominent role and he’s a, he’s an Aless star, you know, and oh, a hundred percent.

Yeah. Yeah. And, um, Like you said, the guy who directed it, John Logan is our first time director, but he he’s very established as a writer has written some, you know, big blockbuster hits. So, um, I think that it’s got the talent behind it where I think this movie goes wrong a little bit and, and I don’t wanna be.

Terribly critical of it because I really appreciate the, what, what I see as the effort is it didn’t strike quite the right balance. And I don’t know that. Would necessarily be possible to strike the right strike the right balance. Because I think John Logan is an openly gay man in Hollywood, and I think that he had really good intentions, um, in terms of social commentary mm-hmm , but I, I don’t know that it necessarily struck the right balance between social commentary.

And a horror movie. Yeah. And I think that that’s really hard to do like social commentary and horror is not uncommon at all. It happens all the time. We’ve done a ton of movies that have commented on everything from like nuclear warfare to, and other environmental issues, racism, lots and lots of, yeah. Of those, you know, and I think that maybe.

The one movie that has done the best at striking that balance is Jordan peels get out recently. Yeah. Yeah, there was great. It, it did strike that balance. This one, I think is a little bit heavy on the social commentary and a little light on the horror, but I’m reluctant to even say that because. The social commentary I think is important.

And I appreciate the message of the film, but yeah, I’m not, I’m not sure it quite struck the right balance. I still liked it. I liked the movie. I enjoyed it, but I also know that there are going to be a lot of people out there who are going to thumb their nose at it and, you know, call it woke as though that’s.

A criticism and, you know, say that it’s, you know, it’s too political or. It’s too, you know, it’s shoving the message down your throat or whatever. I know that there are gonna be those people out there and you and I try not to get preachy or overly political or anything, but I’m just gonna say outright that I am going to be unapologetically.

Supportive of the message and, and narrative of this movie. So if that’s something listener that, uh, you are not in support of, and that. Is going to, you know, irritate you, you may as well turn it off because I’m not gonna apologize for my, uh, enthusiastic support of the message of the movie. Sure. 

Todd: I mean, same here.

I’m a hundred percent in support of the message of the film too. And I appreciate the effort and the, the, the courage and whatever it takes, you know, in this day and age to, to get a movie like this, May with some big name stars and put out there. It’s certainly a little easier now than it used to be, but still it’s, you know, this, these are topics that are still very controversial, very political.

We’re arguing about these in my opinion, way too much. But when it comes to art, this is always an issue, right? Movies and our, our first and foremost entertainment, it tends to be sadly enough. It tends to be when, when you try too hard to get a message across, sometimes the entertainment value gets lost.

Right. A little bit mm-hmm for whatever reason. And I, I don’t, I don’t think it’s just because of people’s personal hangups, you know, I don’t think it’s simply because I might be personally. Fronted by the message they’re trying to do, or I might disagree. And then that distracts me and keeps me from enjoying the movie.

Now, I, I really mean that just sort of like getting a good entertaining movie out of a film that also was trying very, very hard to like hammer home a message is tricky and difficult. Sometimes it works and sometimes it just comes across. Uh, you know, like trying too hard, you know, Uhhuh or you get more message than substance, or you get more message than entertainment.

Quite frankly, nobody wants to just be lectured for an hour and a half. And I, I don’t think this movie does that, but it gets close. Yeah. It’s definitely veering into that territory. And. That’s basically because it kind of, isn’t a horror movie for the majority of the run time. See, but 

Craig: the thing is, I think it is, but not in the way that we typically think.

Todd: I know what you’re gonna say. I know exactly what you’re gonna say, and I’m gonna agree with you, but go on. Yeah. 

Craig: Mm-hmm, , I’m just gonna say that, you know, like in here somewhere is the standard camper, slasher movie. But that’s not, what is the most horrifying about this movie? Right. What’s the most horrifying about this movie is that these kinds of conversion camps, maybe not to the extreme that is suggested here, but, but they exist.

And. People send their children there to be converted and, and, and changed and to challenge and, and, and potentially try to change something essential to their identity. And that is horrific to me. Yes. And, and I, and I think a lot of the stuff that we see in here. Is, um, real, I, I, I think that the way that these.

Young people are talked to. I think it happens. And, and a lot of it, a lot of it’s direct and a lot of it is passive aggressive. The passive aggressive stuff was the stuff that sickened me the most. Kevin Bacon’s character, Owen Whistler is the proprietor of this camp and he starts. He introduces himself and he welcomes these young people to this camp.

I can’t make you straight. I don’t wanna make you straight gay people are Akay with me. If you’re happy, the way you are then more power to you. And I know what you’re thinking, you hear the words, gay conversion camped, and you start to imagine all kinds of homophobic bullshit. Well, that is not what we’re about.

But I’m guessing 

Todd: that some of you are here 

Craig: because in some way you’re not happy. Maybe you don’t fit in. People make fun of you. Maybe you wanna find some new kind of peace, a new way of thinking about yourself. Well, you give us this week and we might be able to help. And if not, just enjoy the sunshine and work on your 10.

Ah, and it’s bullshit. Yeah, it’s, it’s a boldface lie. And though he claims to be supportive of who they are. Um, he’s passive aggressive. One of the main characters is named Jordan and they’re a transgender non-binary. Um, person and they, their pronouns are they them, but Kevin bacon constantly and I believe fully intentionally misgenders them.

Mm-hmm and you know, claims E every time he does it, and somebody calls me, he’s like, oh, sorry, my mistake. No, it’s not a mistake. You’re doing it on purpose. And, uh, there’s another trans character, a trans woman. Particular trans woman, her name is Alexandra. She’s just AB stunningly, stunningly. Beautiful. Um, she doesn’t initially reveal that she’s a trans woman and when he finds out, he’s all pissed off about it.

And he angrily and intentionally misgenders and dead names, her and these things. happen every day. God. Yeah. Yeah. I’m getting emotional about it. That’s what I think is horrific about it. And I think that that’s what the writer director kind of wanted to expose. He, he talked about, you know, you can’t find a, because this movie is so new, there’s not a whole lot of information out there about it in terms of like trivia and whatnot.

But John Logan talked about how growing up representation of. Uh, the LGBTQ plus community in horror was never particularly flattering. Yeah. You know, it was, um, generally, you know, flamboyant and over the top and gay people were either victims, killers or the joke and that’s. True. And having grown up in the eighties and watch that, you know, I just didn’t question it because that’s just how gay people were portrayed in movies.

And it didn’t particularly bother me, but in hindsight, looking back, it’s not, it’s not fair and it’s not equal representation. And I, and that’s the thing that I appreciated the most about this movie was that. It brings all of these young people together and it does feel like fair representation. You’ve got a variety of different types of queer people and they’re unique and they’re individual and, uh, they’re three dimensional.

Yeah. On that front, I think the movie’s really successful. 

Todd: Yeah, that’s one thing I really will say for it. Like there’s not stereotyping going on here. These feel like real people and there’s, there’s not a caricature aspect to it. All these people feel like very real, very down to earth people, which is, uh, you know, in service to reality.

mm-hmm yes, honestly. Yeah. I mean, it’s just, it’s great. And so for that, I, you know, I was, I was kind of on the edge waiting for some of that to happen for some reason. But it didn’t, and, and that was good. Uh, and I agree with you also, like Kevin Bacon’s character, of course we know what we’re getting into.

We know that this movie’s a horror movie, so bad things are gonna happen. So immediately distrustful of all of the things that he’s saying in the very beginning, which I thought was a delicious, you know, speech. Oh yeah. It’s really good. It’s really good. And this is the kind of double talk that people do all the time, Uhhuh and they don’t just do it about gender.

They do it about race. Yeah. They do it a about a lot of things, but they’ll stand there. Oh, you know? No, I, I, you know, I, you can be who you are and I love everybody and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then at the end, okay. Boys cabins are over here. Girls cabins are over there. Right, right, right. It just starts to walk away.

It’s almost hilarious when that’s done yet. It’s not done in a comical manner, you know, it’s kind of a deadpan sort of mm-hmm humor. I, I would say right immediately, like you said, our transgendered, uh, main character here, I would say Jordan is immediately offended by and, you know, confronts him about it.

And then he’s all like, I’m sorry. You’re right. Maybe we do need a, we do need a cabin. Non-binary right. Mm-hmm but, uh, for now, can you please just maybe go to the, the boys’ cabin, if that’s uncomfortable for you, then we can talk mm-hmm it sounds fairly reasonable, I suppose. You know, considering everybody knows they’re coming to this camp to be turned, you know, straight.

Right. And also for the most part, I kind of like that, everyone know sort of like, I mean, I would imagine God, if I were not straight and I was sent to a camp like this against my will, my parents, I mean, You know, you gotta do it, I guess, in their circumstances anyway, like they’re sort of forced to go, but they’re not like kicking and screaming and crying about it.

They’re just like, all right. You know, let’s just fucking get this over with. Well, and they, they 

Craig: take the, the, I, I appreciate that film. They, it stride. They do, but I, I appreciate that the filmmakers take. A moment to address the reasons why the people are there. Now, before, before that we’re introduced to the staff and there’s not very many of them.

So just really quick. There’s of course, uh, Owen Whistler, it’s Whistler camp. Um, Owen is Kevin bacon. He’s the main guy. Um, his wife is the psychologist, uh, for the camp she’s played by Carrie Preston, who I recognize she’s a character actress. She. R small roles and lots and lots of things. Uh, I recognized her as one of the funny singing twins from my best friend’s wedding, but she’s in lots of things.

Um, and then there’s Molly, who is the camp nurse played by Anna Clumsky, who I love. I mean, you know, breakout role in my girl when she was just a little girl. And then she took a long break from acting to get her education. And then she came back and she’s been incredibly successful, uh, since. Zane, uh, played by Boone.

Plat is the athletic director and he’s this big hulking, you know, kind of creepy guy and his wife, Sarah who’s the activities director. Owen says that Zane is a former camper. And uses him as kind of an example of how this, you know, look, it can work, you know, look at him straight as can be. I have a feeling that Sarah was probably a former camper too, based on things that happened later.

Oh, for sure. In the movie. Yeah. And then there’s uh, BZA the handyman. And duke the dog. He’s cute. Okay. So that’s the staff and, and they collect all their cell phones and computers and medications and stuff, and say how this is gonna be a safe space. And the only rule here is respect. We’re all gonna respect each other, whatever.

Once they get all the, the cabin stuff sorted out, which you’ve already talked about, then they have kind of a circle where they meet. and, and all of our main characters there’s, I don’t know, five or six central campers who we get to know. I kind of feel bad cuz there are other campers too, who just are always hanging out in the background.

and, and I ki I wanted to know more about them, but that’s okay. It’s already kind of a, a big cast. Um, but what I liked about, you know, they take the time to explain why they’re there. Some of them. Have bargained with their parents like Jordan, they made a deal with their parents that if they came to camp for a week, then they would be allowed to emancipate themselves, uh, legally, Toby.

Is a black, young gay man. He made a deal with his parents that if he came to the camp, that they would send him to New York city to go see some big Broadway show. I don’t know but like, so some of them, some of them bargained with their parents for something. Um, but some of them want to be there and. To change.

Yeah. Like Stu is, well, he’s an athlete, he’s a swimmer and he’s, he’s big and masculine. And he talks about how he’s got this whole path laid out for him that he’s an athlete and he’s gonna go to college on an athletic scholarship and he’s supposed to join. Daisy had something to say about it, sorry. And he’s going to join his dad’s fraternity.

And he just doesn’t know how that’s gonna work because he’s so uncomfortable. Like when he is in the locker room, he doesn’t know where to look because he is gay. Uh, and he doesn’t wanna be. Kim is a pretty blonde girl and she is gay, but closeted and she just desperately wants to fit in. Being gay makes that impossible in her mind.

So I just, I, I appreciated the fact that they were there for different reasons and I appreciated the fact that some of them were there because they really hoped it would work. I can only imagine that that’s probably true. You know, there are lots of young gay people. Feel like their lives would be better and easier if they weren’t queer and, and, and that’s sad, but I think that it’s a reality and I appreciated that.

Reflected that here a again, it just, it seems thoughtful. You know, it seems like they were very careful right. In their portrayal of these young queer people to try to be as honest as they could about that experience and to show a variety of experiences because not all gay people are the same and not all queer people.

Are the same or have the same experiences. Sure. Anyway, there there’s the whole group of ’em there. And another thing that I liked is I think that they were also very careful about representation in the performers. The two trans characters are portrayed by trans actors. I don’t know if all of the actors identify as the same way as their character, but it seems like they did take into consider.

Fair representation in casting too. Which again, mm-hmm I respect and appreciate 

Todd: a a hundred percent agreed on all. It’s easy to get all this stuff out because they’re at this camp, there’s like a circle, you know, kind of like with counseling or with, or maybe your first day at camp, your get to know kind of thing or yeah, everybody just goes around and basically is supposed to talk about themselves and why they’re there and what they want to get out of it.

And there’s more, that’s spilled out, you know, in more natural. As characters talk with each other throughout it Uhhuh, but it’s pretty quick that you get the majority of exactly what you said, you know, right there. And, and of course, Kevin Bacon’s character, you can tell is trying very hard to come across as a very nice, very understanding, accepting counselor type person.

But you can also sort of tell this as a trained response, you know, like he has well oiled his approach to this, to ease the kids into a sense of. And then as the movie goes on, we realize that, you know, the, the camp is not gonna be like that. And we kind of have to assume the camp isn’t gonna be like that, cuz it’s a gay conversion therapy camp.

Right. So I mean, it, it has that goal and they’re not known for being right. You know, gracious and, and accepting. And so I feel like there’s a better, smarter, more sophisticated horror movie in here that really just. Can just be more or less realistic about the kinds of things and the psychological manipulation and, uh, little digs and little hurts and little pains that I imagine I’ve never been to one of these camps, but I can only imagine that that has to happen.

Right. And, and there’s some of that in this movie, but it kind of. Pops in outta left field. I think, I don’t feel like it’s eased into as much as it sort of could be because as soon as we get sort of smarmy Kevin bacon being nice and everybody kind of getting to know each other and everything seems like it could be fairly copacetic in a way.

I don’t remember which happens first. I don’t remember if the walk into the woods, uh, in the middle of the night happens first, or if it’s one of the characters is sitting in front of Kevin Bacon’s character’s wife co. And chorus just very direct and just basically very psychologically manipulative to this person.

It’s horrible. 

Craig: It’s absolutely horrible. She’s talking to Jordan trans non-binary. She talks about how like, Didn’t fit in with the rest of your family. Cause they had been, they, when they had ’em out in the woods, the woods was first, they took ’em out in the woods. That’s handcuffed them together in pairs and just left them there overnight.

And I really think they said it was to kind of build trust between them or something. It’s not, it was just to get them away from the camp so they could Snoop through their stuff, which they did. Yeah. That’s exactly what it was. Cora in Jordan’s stuff. Found a picture. Of them when they were young and, and still being treated as a girl.

And, and they’re from a military family. So Cora talks about how she was from a military military family too. And she just couldn’t fit in. I know cuz no matter what you do, you’ll never be good enough or straight enough or man enough or woman enough. It’s like, you’re nothing. to them. You’re not even a freak.

You’re nothing. So what do you do? You try to make yourself special, so they’ll see you. So they’ll notice you. So they’ll love you become a honey. That’s not gonna work. This thing you invented, it’s a fake, they’re never gonna love you. No one is not. Unless you drop this nonsense and admit what you are, a scared, lonely, ugly little.

and she says it all with a smile on her face and then just says, okay, well that’s enough for today and, and sends them off. 

Todd: It’s super creepy. And also, like I thought I was a little disappointed at this point in the movie, you know, because it took this turn so quickly. I, I just sort of felt like the movie was setting up us up for this sort of slow burn of slow sophisticated sort of psychological tortures that you know, were not so bold and bald.

I don’t know, maybe pulling a person away from everybody else and talking to them individually is secretive or whatever. But I, I, I think I was just expecting it to be a little more clever cleverly malicious, and it just turns out no, she’s just gonna, like, I presume pull each one of them in there and call them dykes and things.

Well, right. And just 

Craig: she’s playing to their insecurities on purpose, uh, yeah. To, to try to break them down and. I, I just she’s the 

Todd: bad cop, right? He’s the good cop. She’s the bad cop, I guess. Right. But 

Craig: she does it all with a smile on her face in a very gentle tone. You know, she hides behind. Her medical license, which I don’t even know if I believe that this woman is really a psychologist anyway, you know, that would call into question all kinds of ethical things.

I don’t know if I even buy that, but she does it under the guise of trying to help them, of trying to help them to realize who they are and what they’ve done and why they’ve made this choice. And they, they, she keeps emphasizing that too. That it’s a choice you’ve made this choice to be this person when I think.

Most intelligent, modern people understand that identity is not a choice in, in that way. Um, yeah, it’s, it’s just part of who a person is. And yes, young people sometimes struggle to find their identity, but to, to write it off as a choice and as a bad choice as a mistake is, is so. Uh, it it’s passive aggressive.

It’s hateful it’s mean it’s judgemental and, uh, clueless and, and clueless and, and queer kids face it all the time. They face from the outside. They face from the inside, you know, uh, some of these people, their own parents, their own families, um, feel this way. And. Them feel as though they have made bad choices and, and are a mistake.

And I, the other thing, you know, Jordan is painted of, of all of these kids as being one of the most secure in their identity. Mm-hmm , but this even impacts them. It, it, it hurts them. And I, I’m glad that the movie shows that, you know, even, even the toughest of people of kids can still be hurt when.

Intentionally broken down like that. And one of the next, you know, things that we see is they’re laying in their bed and they’re crying Alexandra, the other trans character, you know, asks. If they’re okay. And, and, and they basically say, no, they’re not. And, and they, they talk a little bit and Alexandra, you know, is, is, is very, very supportive.

She too seems very, very confident in her identity. Yeah. And it gets a little cheesy, she starts quoting a pink song and then they break out and there’s like a musical number. Yeah. As much as much. As much as I like the movie and as much as I kind of get what they were going for, you know, it’s, it’s a comradery thing, you know it and nothing against pink.

I like pink. But the, the lyrics in, especially in this context are a little. Cheesy. , they’re a little cute on the 

Todd: nose, you know, a little too on the nose. 

Craig: I mean, it’s cute. It’s cute to see them all up and singing and dancing together, but a little much could, it 

Todd: could have been war. It could have been. Could have been born this way, you know, I suppose it could words

Craig: but it’s ju it’s it’s, it’s all, it’s almost there. 

Todd: Yeah. So I thought that was, uh, that was disappointing, you know, I thought that was disappointing too, but whatever. Okay. It just 

Craig: me roll my eyes a little bit. Like I get the intense of it and I do appreciate that. And I do, you know, uh, I I’m so glad that young people today do have.

A community when I was in high school that didn’t exist. I’m sure that I went to school with other gay people, but we didn’t talk about it. Mm-hmm it would’ve been dangerous to talk about it. You know, I, I, I very narrowly avoided some physical abuse on more than one occasion. And, and that was when I was still very much in the closet.

And today, you know, I work in a high school and, and there is a community not only of queer kids. Of their allies and, uh, they have a lot more freedom, not, not to say that there’s not still risk involved because there certainly is, but they have a lot more freedom to really be who they are. And they’ve got a support system in place, not only with one another, but with, uh, teachers and faculty and staff.

Um, so, and, and I, and I appreciate that, you know, that’s, I think. These, uh, conversion camps. And I haven’t done a ton of research into these. I know that they exist. I know what they’re about. Um, but I think that in some sense, they backfire a little bit because you bring all these young people together and they’re bound to form bonds with one another and they’re bound to form a community.

And, and when you have a community. Like that there’s strength in that. Yeah. So they, they may be able to break some people and I’m sure that they do, even in the movie, you see that just being amongst other young people, there’s one character, Kim, she’s very pretty and feminine. Um, and she’s one of the ones who’s there because she doesn’t want to be different.

She doesn’t want to be gay, but once she is surrounded by a community of other people, Like her, it empowers her and molds her to embrace who she is. Uh, and that’s cool. 

Todd: and I was also gonna say, as I was watching this movie and thinking about it, it’s also like, like any other summer camp, you know, whatever it is, you get a bunch of, you know, young kids like this together.

They’re also gonna try to hook up . 

Craig: Oh, heck yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 

Todd: You know, I, I did, I had several summer camps. Right. I. What for what was sort of not first and foremost of my mind, but at least, you know, second or third down on the list of all of us was you. Who’s the Q one here, you know, who can we, so like in, in that way, it’s sort of backfires too.

And, and they, and this is what happens also at this camp, of course, they’re bonding, they’re getting closed and they they’re starting, they develop a few attachments for each other. And I was a little surprised in the, as how the movie portrayed anyway, at the degree of freedom and lack of supervision.

They seemed to have. Yeah. And I felt like, especially for something like this, some, a gay conversion camp as insidious as this one is, and as much as they’re actually kind of using that to, to catch the kids in a few ways still there was still a, a distinct lack of supervision. I do not think you would find sure.

In, in one of these for real 

Craig: well, it, I mean, to be fair, it’s a really small staff. Yeah. One, three people, four people. Yeah, like five of them in total, including the, the owner. Um, and, and the staff are all pretty horrible except for the nurse, Molly. Who’s new. This is her first year there. And Anna Clumsky is just very charming and endearing.

Period, but you know, there are little things like, um, Alexandra goes to her and says, I know that we had to turn in our medications, but I need my pills. And at first she claims that they’re antidepressants as misguided as they may be about some things. I can’t just ignore protocol. It’s not so loft.

Alright, estradiol. It’s an estrogen hormone.

I made a deal with my parents. I know you come here or they throw you out. It’s. It’s not that at all. When I turned 18, I thought there was nothing they could do to stop me, but I was wrong. I have a younger brother and he was the world to me. And I mean the world to, and they said that if I did not come to this place, that they would never let me see him again.

And, and so Molly. Does give her her medicines and just says, well, this will just be our little secret. At some point, Jordan sneaks out of his cabin in the middle of the night and snoops around in the main office and finds pictures of former campers who have clearly been. Horribly abused physically. 

Todd: Yeah.

You know, I just, I just thought all this came on quite suddenly and really out of left field. I, I wasn’t really sure why he was snooping around and going through drawers or something. There didn’t seem to be any clear motivation for it. And then what, like, this camp is gonna have these like carefully printed photos of, of, of child abuse and stuff, just in a desk somewhere.

Like what, what does he pull it out every now and then, and kind of look at the flip through them wistfully, you know, like, yeah. And then, you know, Molly comes in, uh, it was Molly, right. Who comes in and interrupts him. Right. Or they, they says, did you know this was going. and, uh, Molly says, uh, no, I dunno.

She’s a little coy about it, but she’s sort of like, not really. I mean, it’s, it’s just a lot to happen within like five minutes. Right? It’s, it’s a, it’s a major escalation in a way that I thought was really kind of, um, wedged into the movie almost because I was expecting some different kind of build. I was accepting other little sort of hints that something were, things were not off just because this was a conversion camp, but this was maybe like, you know, a psycho conversion camp, you know, And yet it’s just, it’s like they just decide to go into Snoop around and find these conveniently placed photos.

Well, I, 

Craig: I, I think that they’re just. Naturally very suspicious. They think that there’s something insidious going on. And, and of, of course there is. Um, but Molly also, you know, she kind of acts like she maybe kind of had some idea that something like this might be going on, but like she didn’t know the extent of it, but she.

Warren Jordan. Alexandra said you helped her with her pills. Now you have to help all of us do what protect us from what, from this

I’ll do what I can.

Jordan, be careful. This could get a lot worse and he doesn’t like you. Well, he has no idea who he’s hunting this time. Oh God. And then the next day they separate the boys and the girls, boys and girls mm-hmm 

Todd: right. Which they’re quite, I mean, they’re quite like, like, I guess they’re used to it. So they’re just sort of like roll their eyes at it.

Right. 

Craig: Well, but that’s the thing. Uh, Owen, supposedly, you know, he’s he told Jordan go with the boys and then if you don’t feel comfortable, we can talk about it or whatever, but he forces. Alexandra to participate with the boys. Mm-hmm and she is quite clearly not a boy. Like yeah. she is very clearly a woman and, you know, they won’t allow her to wear.

Um, girls clothes that’s right. And she has, yeah, she has to borrow, uh, clothes from the boys. And I like Jordan wears a dress and protest after that, which I thought was cute and funny but they separate them and they say that today they’re going to focus on traditional gender roles. Yeah. And it’s so gross.

Like it is just absolutely disgusting. It is. Yeah. The, the bull. Stereotypical gender roles like, uh, Sarah, the activities director, like 

Todd: you , it’s, it’s really comical actually. And the way that she says it’s funny. Today, we’re 

Craig: gonna be exploring traditional gender roles by behaving in a certain way, by learning to recognize and accept modes of societal behaviors, perhaps will come to appreciate the emotional value in reinforcing these behaviors, even finding comfort and a sense of community within them.

So ladies. Let’s 

Todd: make a pie and I’m like, but, um, Ching oh, oh God, it 

Craig: gets even worse. I mean, it’s just ridiculous. And 

Todd: what are the men doing? They’re going hunting, right? They’re all gonna have guns. And at first they’re, you know, shooting targets and it turns out that Jordan is actually quite good at shooting Uhhuh and, uh, has like a little mini competition between.

Jordan and, uh, that, that got Zane, right. And then, uh, Kevin Bacon’s character, uh, comes out and says, okay, now, you know, shooting targets is all well and good and gives us long speech about our, how we evolved and how men evolved differently from women and men were traditionally hunters and had to provide for the family and hunt and blah, blah, blah.

But they didn’t shoot targets. You know, they had to hunt flesh to eat and bring back and all that. How, which one of you has the balls to, to hunt flesh. He calls out Toby. There’s been this dog that we were introduced to in the very beginning that one of the characters, it’s a hound dog. And one of the characters kind of makes a comment like, yeah, that dog is clearly sick.

I can tell, by the way it’s walking, it’s very old and it’s sick. And of course this comes to play now where, uh, Kevin bacon says, you see the, the dog over there, he has cancer, put him out of his misery and then. Uh, Zane is over there with a sledgehammer and, uh, 

Craig: yeah, he says, if you don’t shoot him, if you don’t shoot the dog, then Zane’s going to.

Smash his legs with the sledgehammer, and then he’ll be in pain and he’ll be scared, but he won’t be able to run cuz his legs will be broken. Like it’s just sadistic. It’s just, it’s it’s horrible. 

Todd: It gets so sadistic. And, and, and I guess again, this was kind of disappointing to me about the movie is that I felt like there could have been a little bit more psychological.

And to me, the horror honestly, was a little too much on the nose and it veered away again, look, it doesn’t have to be all about the psychological horrors of a gay conversion camp, but I mean, here we are. And you were exploring that territory. What do these kids, I mean, if all these kids get outta here fine and they go home, like.

There are gonna be lawsuits out the wa you know, with the stuff that’s going on at this camp. And I can’t imagine, like, it would be that bold and straight, you know, I just can’t 

Craig: imagine. I can believe it. I know, but the people who send their kids to these camps. They don’t care. They don’t care. Yeah. You know, and, and I don’t think that they would ever, you know, outright say that they would intentionally put their kids in harm’s way, but they know what’s going on.

We’ve all heard the horror stories, not just about these kinds of camps, but even camps where they send, you know, quote. Delinquent, you know, like, yeah, like these scare them straight kind of camps. People know what’s going on there and it ISK up. 

Todd: But it is. But I mean, is it that, I mean, I, I imagine it’s just this sort of intense counseling, like, like the baking, the pie and the things like that, but don’t you think that even the most hard in person, if they learned that their kid was forced to shoot a dog, you 

Craig: know, to make.

I don’t know. Yeah. Because I, you know, I’ve heard about these places and you know, like even, um, not that I’m holding her up to any kind of. You know, level of esteem or anything, but like Paris Hilton was sent to one of these types of places and, you know, they, they do practice like isolation and, um, all kind drew, Barry words, stuff, kinda crazy type stuff thing, right?

Yeah. They try to break them. They, they break them down so they can rebuild them the way that they want. So I imagine these things do happen. I don’t know. I knew what was going to happen in this moment. I knew that Toby wouldn’t be able to shoot the dog. And I knew that Jordan would do it. Mm-hmm to, to prevent somebody else from having to, or to prevent the dog from being tortured.

And, and, and they do. 

Todd: And then Jordan AINS the goin at Owen for a a minute or so. That was an interesting moment. Owen, they have a bit of a stare down there. Uh, I liked that moment actually. I thought that was kind 

Craig: of cool. Another thing that it’s only explored briefly, but, um, these types of camps, I think put.

Children in really dangerous positions because they provide opportunities for predators. Mm, Sarah, the activities director, after all the girls make their pies, she sends them all away except for Kim. And then she blatantly. Hits on her. Oh yeah. A and you know, it’s, it’s very sexual in nature. And I imagine that that kind of abuse, uh, is not uncommon in these types of places as well, because it’s hypocritical.

Todd: And yet the whole time I was also wondering, is this a setup? You know, I don’t think so testing her. No, I don’t think it was, but, uh, at that moment in the movie, I. Skeptical of everything that was going on. I thought everything was manipulation. And I thought, Hmm, is this woman setting her up somehow? You know, like, is she coming onto her so that she can like punish her later for succumbing to it it’s 

Craig: possible, but I it’s, it’s not really, I don’t.

So spoiler, I, I don’t think, uh, we learn later because she like, remember she’s married to Zane who we know was a. Camper. I assume that she was too, because we see them later, they steal the kids’ phones and hack into them. And we see the two of them laying in bed in their underwear, scrolling through these kids’ pictures and looking at their sexy selfies.

And they each pick, uh, like an underwear shot of one of the campers. And then they start to have sex staring like Zane is staring. Uh, an underwear shot of stew, I think. And, and she is staring at a picture of, of Kim. Yeah, it’s gross. And then they get killed. Like we just, as the, the movie makers have forgotten that this.

Is a slasher movie. we, we know this, we know this because there is the first kill. There’s always the first kill in the slasher movie. And there is in this one too, a woman gets killed on the road, outside of the camp by a masked killer. And this masked killer kind of shows up and just in the background every once in a while, but it’s really not until the last third of the movie.

that the killer really shows 

Todd: up. Oh God. Yeah. Like the last 20 minutes. Really? It is so late in the movie that, like you said, you’re forgetting, you’re watching a slasher and that doesn’t happen until after some other ho horrifying things happen. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, one good thing is, you know, Kim is very upset after having been hit on by Sarah.

But it also kind of opens her up to be intimate with, uh, Veronica. They’ve kind of been flirting. They uh they have sex on 

Todd: the dock. Yeah. Right out in the middle of the open . 

Craig: Yeah. Which is a little, I don’t know. I mean, it’s, it’s kind of a hot sex scene, but at the same time, it’s just kind of nice to see Kim finally accept who she is and, and yeah.

And enjoy herself and enjoy herself and release her inhibitions. And then, you know, yes, they do have sex out there on the dock and it’s sexy and all that stuff, but they have a connection, you know, it’s not like it’s a. It’s just a, a fling, you know, they they’re connected, but now at this point they’ve seen enough, Alexandra and Jordan have seen enough and they’re gonna get out of there and they tell Toby that they’re gonna go.

And Toby’s like, they’re they say, we’re gonna steal the bus. We’re gonna get up real Royal early in the morning and steal the bus and go. And Toby’s like, well, what about the others? What about St? Because he and Stu have also kind of been. A little flirty. And so they decide, okay, well, we’ll wake everybody up and tell them what we’re doing and give them the choice.

And if they wanna go, they can go, but they don’t have to, they can do whatever they want. Then we see St who we know is a swimmer swimming in the lake. He’s gorgeous. I mean, he’s just, you know, a fine figure of a man, but he is joined by Gabriel, who we haven’t mentioned. Gabriel is kind of this androgynous, uh, character.

you know, has, has been there, you know, all along, we just haven’t mentioned him and Gabriel kind of seduces stew and they make out in the lake a little bit and then they move to this creepy ass tool shed that we’ve seen before and have sex, and I’m not gonna get into it because there’s. A, we don’t have time for a lesson and B

Todd: I also know what you’re gonna 

Craig: say. B um, it would be a little bit too graphic perhaps for our audience, but it bothers me. The director of this movie is an openly gay man. They never get gay sex right in movies. No, this, 

Todd: this would not be able to happen this movie. No, 

Craig: no, it doesn’t work 

Todd: that way. I was thinking it.

The whole time , from what I understand, 

Craig: it really doesn’t work that way in straight sex either. Um, but especi, well, some maybe sometimes if, again, 

Todd: depends on the person, but let’s not get too 

Craig: graphic about it, but right. You gay sex. It doesn’t just happen like that. Other things need to happen first. right.

Todd: You have to prep. You have to prep a little bit. 

Craig: that’s exactly right. But anyway, believe it at that. Uh, okay, so they have sex, but it’s a trap. Apparently Gabriel has been in on it all the time. He’s a plant. He is a plant and he’s there forbidden fruit and he’s there to tempt the guys. And if the guys give into it, um, then they get the real conversion therapy, which.

Clockwork orange, like torture therapy. Yeah. Where they, they strap stew down in this chair. They hook up these electrical wires to his chest, and then they show him images of hot guys and electrocute him Uhhuh and it’s terrible. And it leaves terrible burns on his chest. And apparently you, they nearly kill him.

So they take him to Molly. The. And she is done. She’s like, I’m done. This is ridiculous. I’m gonna call the cops and Kevin Bacon’s like, do whatever you want. Like I’m on the city council or whatever. He’s like, I’m, you know, totally reputable around here. Nobody’s gonna listen to you, which again, scary in and of itself.

Cuz those types of politics do happen all the time. But then the slasher just starts killing. Not everybody but kills, uh, Zane and kills Sarah while they’re in bed together, uh, has already killed BZA the creepy handyman, because he was watching the girl shower on surveillance cameras. Um, and then. Jordan, I think, or somebody stumbles upon all these bodies.

So everybody knows that there’s a killer out there. Cora goes to get some rifles, she gets killed. This all happens so fast. Like, yeah, like they remembered that they needed to have a slasher movie in the last. 15 minutes and Jordan, um, well they send Alexandra off with all the extra campers, the ones whose names, we don’t know, they send her, they, she says I’m, I’m walking out of here.

Um, and they send the other campers with her and then Jordan goes to get the guns finds Cora’s dead body in the closet. And then is hiding in the closet when the main guy, what’s his name? Owen. uh, comes in and Owen is confronted by the killer. And here’s where it’s the big reveal. The killer is Molly, the nurse.

And at this moment, right before the UN masking, I’m thinking, who can it be? Mm-hmm like, it’s surely somebody we know. But I never for a second thought that it would be her. Yeah, me neither because she’s so nice. Uh, but it turns out she was a former camper. She was terribly abused and she has come back to exact her revenge.

And there’s a showdown where like, Jordan, she’s gonna kill Owen, but then Jordan comes out and he. I don’t remember exactly how it goes down, but Molly tries to convince Jordan to kill Owen, um, and says, you know, we can, we can end this. We can, uh, shut down this camp and then we can just keep going. We can go to all the other camps and make sure that nobody ever does this again.

And it’s supposed to be this cathartic moment where Jordan realizes that they. Have to do this. They can make their own decisions and, you know, be the person that they want to be, which is not a killer. But, uh, Molly is still able to first IAL Owen on a rhino horn, cuz there’s heads of animals mounted all over this cabin.

Um, and then, uh, she slits his throat and then the cops show up and that’s pretty much it. Right? 

Todd: Yeah. That’s it. There’s nothing. Nothing more to be said, really? They have kind of a little, little, everybody kind of has their little moment and, uh, they’re gonna kind of walk off into the sunset and that’s basically 

Craig: walk off into the sunset.

You know, they, they all promise that they’re gonna live their best lives. Like Kim is gonna come out to her parents. And it’s all, maybe it’s a 

Todd: little too sappy. I think it’s a little 

Craig: trite. It is. It is trite 

Todd: and yeah. Trite is the 

Craig: word. Yeah. I, I, I do wanna say that I really. Enjoyed Anna Clumsky performance.

Oh yeah. She seemed like a broken person, not a bad person. Somebody who had been driven, you know, had been driven to this. Yeah. Due to the abuse that she had suffered at this camp. And she talks about that. She talks about how, uh, she had been broken by them. And, and again, I think that that not. People who go to these types of camps or any kind of behavior or a version type camp or whatever.

I, I think that people can be scarred psychologically, um, and have to live with those wounds for the rest of their lives. Uh, again, not that they’re all gonna turn into masked killers, but I do think that it’s a good allegory for the way that these people can be. Broken and, uh, you know, so that, you know, like, like you said, they’re all gonna walk off into the sunset cue pink 

Todd: again, come on, please.

Why? I mean, look at the end of the day, I, you know, it’s not a bad movie as a horror movie. It’s not that great, honestly, but we’ve seen so much worse. I, I was a little disappointed. I thought the movie had more promise than it delivered. It wasn’t very well reviewed. Uh, I, I didn’t get a chance to read why I didn’t, I don’t know if you did, did you get to read why people didn’t care for it too much?

Craig: Well, I mean, for the reasons that we’ve said that, you know, it’s a little uneven, it’s a little unbalanced. Um, some felt that it was a little preachy, which I don’t think, but I can understand how somebody. I, I don’t think it’s an unfair argument. I think maybe the reason that I’m reluctant to call it preachy is because that has a negative connotation.

I, I do think that there’s an intentional message, but I agree with and support the message. So it doesn’t come across as preachy to me, I think it’s an important message. And, and I think that this is a good movie for queer kids, you know, to yeah. To see. You know, maybe somebody like them represented in film in an honest and, and fair way.

And to not just be a gag or a victim or a killer, you know, like the, the other, when I think, uh, transgender horror movie, I think of sleepaway camp and. You know, I, I like that movie. I think it’s a great cult classic movie, but it equates being transgender with being mentally unbalanced and, and that’s yeah, that’s often how being queer is portrayed in these types of movie or it’s portrayed as the joke.

You know, there’s the funny gay sidekick, which again, I’m not personally offended by, but I can understand how that would be tiresome for some people. 

Todd: What was the slasher movie that we watched at Halloween? It was the other very overtly queer film. What was it? Uh, Helland Helland. Yes. When I think of Helland, actually I think hell Ben was better than this movie.

Honestly, it 

Craig: was a more direct, scary movie. And again, I think that it was fair in its representation. I mean, this, these were, it was fair 

Todd: and, and also casual, more casual in its representation right now. 

Craig: The main characters, the main characters just happen to be gay, you know, like 

Todd: that. Exactly. And so like everything kind of like, you know, their characterizations were quite natural and natural surroundings and context.

But of course, you know, if that movie had happened at a conversion camp, it probably would’ve been slightly different. Yeah. Because the context is different. So the characters are gonna be talking about it more and they’re forced to confront it themselves. And you know that that’s gotta co play out on screen.

So, I mean, I’ll give it that kind of allowance, but I, I still felt like perhaps the movie was just a little too and you’re right. Preachy. Isn’t the right word. Just maybe some, sometimes it was just a little too on the nose. It felt like maybe it was trying a little too hard at times. Fair enough, but you know, uh, there aren’t enough movies out there trying to do any of this stuff.

So, and it was, it was sensitive and it was fair and it was honest in its representation. I felt, I thought so. So yeah, it had had all that going for it. Despite the fact that I, I was like, oh, come on pink, just back off just a little bit. in service to reality. , you know? Yeah. Not that I require a lot of reality out of my horror movies, 

Craig: you know?

Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. You know, I liked the movie overall, um, but it was a little bit li it was a little bit light on. The horror conventions. Yeah. And the horror conventions were very typical. I mean, it’s just a, a masked killer at, at a, at a summer camp, you know, 

Todd: and, and electrical torture in the creepy ass cabin.

yeah. You know, even the, even the creepy ass cabin, I, I kind of rolled my eyes at, I was like, real, like, they’ve got this one cabin. On the property that just stands there and looks like, you know, the whole family from Texas chainsaw massacre could be residing inside of it. I, I would’ve expected their torture chamber to be a little more hidden than that, but, you know, right.

Whatever, not unlocked so that you could just stumble into it. And for. Find chains and hooks and things hanging around, which is exactly, um, what that cabin is like, you know, yeah. I would thought if they, I thought they were trying to make a joke at first when they stumbled into that cabin. But no, I mean, it was a serious thing.

Craig: I think that the movie will be polarizing for horror fans. I think that there will be those of us who appreciate what they were trying to do, even if it wasn’t a bullseye. But then I think that there will be others who feel that it wasn’t horror enough that it was too focused on messaging and, and some of the horror elements were.

I thought it was good. I thought the performances were good. Um, I really, really liked the young cast. Um, they were endearing it, their, their performances. Respectful and real and honest. And I liked that. Uh, is it great? No, but I think it was good and I’m glad to have seen it and I might even watch it again at some point.

Who knows. 

Todd: Well, thank you again for listening. And if you enjoyed this episode, please share with the friend. Please let us know of any other. Films you would like us to do in the future. You can just leave us a message on our webpage. Two guys, red 40 n.com or, uh, shoot us a tweet on Twitter or our Facebook page.

Just search for two guys in a chainsaw podcast, and you’ll find any of those there. Also, if you’re a fan of the podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon. You can just go to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast until next time I am 

Craig: Todd and I’m Craig 

Todd: with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.