2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

You have the right to remain silent…FOREVER. Such is the tagline of this week’s schlockfest, the classic cable TV staple, “Maniac Cop”, written by our fave Larry Cohen and directed by Warren Lustig of “Maniac” fame. Loads of familiar faces in this one, and some pretty impressive stunts for a low-budget movie. Enjoy!

Maniac Cop (1988)

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys in a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: It had been a while since we’ve done a request, so we put a few of the requests that have come in to our patrons. And the requests that they voted on… was 1988’s Maniac Cop, out of the three that I presented. And, honestly, this is a movie that I’m very familiar with, although I had never really seen.

I know I had seen bits and pieces and snippets here and there, because in the 90s, when I was watching cable and television and stuff like that, this seemed to be… On a lot. Like, like, it was on cable a lot, I know, and I think even on network television it appeared many times. I’m not quite sure why, but it was just such a staple of network television and cable, late night kind of horror movie, that I count bits and pieces of it here and there, but I never sat down and watched the whole movie.

And as an adult, and later on… Had learned that, you know, it was a bit of a fan favorite, it had a cult following. It spawned two sequels, and so, yeah, it was a request, and we put it up against a couple other ones, and our patrons chose this one for us to do this week, and so this is what we were doing.

However, having seen a few clips here and there, not remembering a bit of it, but re but it was always a part of my consciousness, this is the first time I ever actually sat down and watched the whole movie. So yeah, that’s my history with Maniac Cop. How about you, Craig?

Craig: Pretty much the same. I feel like everything I say, I’ve said so many times, people are get irritated, but this this feels like one of those movies, like, how have I not seen this?

I’ve, I’ve, I’ve been aware of it since I was a kid and I don’t know, the, the box art in the video store was kind of compelling, you know, scary cop guy, I don’t know, I just, I. Never picked it up, I guess, or if I did, I don’t remember, and I think that maybe is a possibility. 

Todd: I I I would not doubt that one bit.

Craig: Because, to be honest with you, when you put up that request, like, I was rooting for Maniac Cop, like, come on, Maniac Cop, you got this! Let’s see it! It won. By a slight margin, and I was glad because, you know, I haven’t seen it, and I thought, well, finally, I’ll get to see it, and it was disappointing. 

Todd: It was, but…

But let me tell you something, and I think only because we’ve been doing this for so long and we’re so steep now in the history of these movies and we see actors who resurface and writers and producers and things who sort of resurface, that for me, this was a bit of comfort food. Like, the enjoyment that I got out of this movie wasn’t about the plot and stuff because it’s lame.

It’s lame. Like you said, it’s, it’s not a very good movie. It’s not… Oh, I mean, we’ve seen way worse acted films than this, and honestly, the acting is fine, and even, to be honest, like, the plotting and all that, one thing I really appreciated about it was it jumped right in, and it kept moving. I don’t think it was ever boring.

I don’t know if it was just the mood I was in or whatever, but I, it, I did start to feel a little long, like I was kind of checking the clock at about 1. 10, and I was like, oh shit, there are 20 more minutes. But, but aside from that, like, I felt like it really moved, and it was compelling enough for, What it is, but more than anything else, I was excited about the pedigree, like when I looked into it, of course, when I was a kid, I didn’t know this stuff, but the director of this movie is William Lustig, and you have to imagine the reason that it’s called Maniac Cop is that he wrote and directed and produced one of the classic Grindhouse horror films, Maniac, you know, which was remade in the 2000s, I suppose, and that’s one that we haven’t even done yet, and I I think we need to soon and then we did another one that he directed more recently called Uncle Sam Which was another direct to video thing and look, I mean William Lustig is clearly not the world’s best director 

Craig: No, but when I saw that when I saw that he had done Uncle Sam, I was excited because I thought that movie was fun Yeah, it was fun.

And I know I interrupted your train of thought I’ll let you get back to it I just you said you didn’t think it was boring. I did it’s not like things weren’t happening I just didn’t care like up until the last, I don’t know, 15, 20 minutes when things just went kind of bonkers, then that was fun. Anyway, I knew you would be excited about all this cause you know, and that’s, that’s great.

It is interesting. And you’re right. We’ve. All of these names William Lustig, Larry Cohen, Bruce Campbell, Tom Atkins, Ramey, Sam Ramey, has 

Todd: a cameo. I wasn’t expecting that either. I was blown away when that happened. So 

Craig: I, I totally agree with you on that front, and I want you to talk more about Larry Cohen because though I know we’ve talked about all these people a bazillion times, I get confused because there are so many of them.

What saved it for me was that it was a fun game of, wait, who is that? Wait, who’s that? Yes! Yes! Because almost every actor you see in this movie you recognize from something. That was exciting. It’s not like they’re big stars or anything, they’re just these actors that you recognize from something. And so, if you’re a big nerd and you, you know, go to IMDb immediately, you know, it’s a fun little treasure hunt, oh yeah, that’s what she’s 

Todd: from, the Golden Girls.

Craig: It’s fun. Agreed. Yeah. So. So that was fun on that front. But anyway, back, back to your lesson. 

Todd: What? Is this 

Craig: really all up to me? Sorry teacher. I love it. Sorry teacher. 

Todd: I don’t, I don’t know how to feel about this, but anyway, I’ll go ahead. You know, am I the stiff guy? Are you the crazy, fun, loony dude and I’m the stiff professor?

You’re professorial type. No, 

Craig: no, no, no. I do this. I, I do this. No, I do this all the time. I go, I, like, you know, give my little lectures about things. This is your wheelhouse. 

Todd: And they get lazy. This is what I love. 

Craig: This is your wheelhouse, and I’m gen I I’m genuinely interested, 

Todd: I’m just giving you shit. You’re right.

Okay, so, we’ve done a lot of Larry Cohen stuff, you wanna talk about Larry Cohen, let’s talk about him. I do, I remind me. He’s been writing for television and movies since, like, the 1950s, okay? He wrote, like, and directed, like, blaxploitation movies, big ones, like Black Caesar, in, like, the 70s. He did one that I Is he THE 

Craig: Troma guy?

Todd: Like, who’s that? That’s Kaufman. Lloyd Kaufman. Oh, okay. 

Craig: Yep. I’m getting them mixed up. 

Todd: Go ahead. Larry Cohen is way more respected in Hollywood. Even though he never really got out of like, independent sort of exploitation films. Like, he doctored even more movies than he was ever credited for. Because he’s just this super prolific writer who just, high concept guy.

We did It Lives. Oh, yeah. The baby, right? We did the stuff, right? About the stuff you feed. He did that. He wrote the sequel to Salem’s Lot, a return to Salem’s Lot. Cue the winged serpent, which has been requested many a time, but we haven’t done yet, but we absolutely will. That has a bit of a cult following.

All three Maniac Cop movies, cause this burned, like, Two or three others. He actually did write Uncle Sam, that we were talking about. And even more recently, Cellular, Phone Booth. 

Craig: Okay, 

Todd: okay, Phone Booth, I saw, yeah. Yeah, he’s done a lot of these movies. He’s directed a lot of movies. He’s written a lot of movies.

He died several years ago. Was just kind of, just seemed to be a cool guy. Well respected as a writer, again, called in to doctor major Hollywood scripts that he never got credited for and things like that. Just, I watched a documentary about the guy once because I was so fascinated because I’m like, this guy’s name keeps popping up and in all these quirky, interesting movies, he just seemed like a really cool guy.

It was, his head was just full of ideas and he just spent his life putting them on paper and Most of these were not big Hollywood blockbusters, but honestly, all of them are sort of high concept. And one of the things that he was kind of known for doing is taking an interesting idea. You know, like, wouldn’t it be interesting if blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And a lot of his movies have the social commentary in them. So, like, you know, we talked about the stuff. It was very much about… 80s consumerism. And It Lives had a lot of, like, stuff about, like, abortion and women’s rights and things like that in it. Interestingly enough, and definitely giving the movie way more credit than it deserves, but it was kind of interesting in Maniac Cop to see a little bit of Again, I’m not crediting Larry Cohen with any kind of, like, crazy ass foresight, but nowadays, watching this movie about a cop that’s kind of renegade and on the loose, and seeing clips in the movie where, you know, people are being interviewed on TV about how now they’re, like, afraid of cops and distrustful of cops, and, like, some black characters in the movie talking about how, yeah, my friends are, like, targeted by the police and all that, so this is nothing new.

Like, it was interesting how prescient Some of that felt in, you know? I was just 

Craig: gonna say the same thing, like, all of the people talking about how they’re scared of this maniac cop or whatever, but then the one black guy is like, yeah, cop’s been beating people up all my life. What are you talking 

Todd: about?

Right, all my friends get harassed by the cops all day long. Like, my buddy was shot. It’s more 

Craig: like, oh god, it sucks that that’s not changed. Like, not, not that he was foreseeing. A problem that would happen, but a problem that we’ve clearly had since probably well before 1988, and 

Todd: continue to. But God, let’s give him some credit for sticking that in the movie.

That was really impressive that that bit was in there. Honestly, I don’t even think it was a cheap shot for its time. I feel like it was rather progressive and impressive that he got that in there. You will. 

Craig: Yeah, no, I agree, like, I’m, I, I’m all for it, like, yes, draw attention to these, but it, it felt, it was highly reminiscent of…

Uncle Sam where you’ve got like this fun campy movie and then now we are gonna hit you with this really heavy hitted scene Do you remember in that movie? Yeah, the the black veteran sat the main character down and had like a very serious Conversation. Yeah, that’s what this moment felt like like, okay.

Hold on from the crazy for a second. Here is a Very serious message. Alright. . Right, 

Todd: right. And now, and now we return you to your , to your regularly scheduled exploitation flick. Yeah. . Right, right. 

Craig: It’s true. But no, I, I, I agree with you. I think that’s cool. I, I think that it’s cool that he incorporates those things into his movies and it did, it drew my attention and I was like, wow, here.

A little commentary on police brutality here. 

Todd: Right. And this stuff was like, 100 percent that almost. So like that was like the best example, I suppose, right? Like the stuff was just 100 percent about 80s consumerism and it was just sort of chock full of it and we dug that. And I liked it. It was fun. Yeah.

Yeah. So, so you got Larry Cohen and you got William Lustig directing. Then you have Tom Atkins. As a police officer, a police detective or whatever, who was with us for half the movie. And then it sort of feels like, there’s a little overlap, it’s like we could only afford Tom Atkins for like, you know, about 40 minutes.

And then, around the time he dies off, we get very young Bruce Campbell, who was with us for the rest of the movie. Which I… F ing loved. And then Richard Roundtree is in here as Commissioner Pike, the police commissioner, and it’s a smaller ish role, but freaking Shaft is in this movie, like, that was fun.

It’s so crazy that a movie like this would be peppered with these folks. And then, again, later on, Sam Raimi comes in, and I wasn’t expecting it, and Pow! He’s on the screen, and he’s a news reporter, and I was like, Yes, this is fantastic. And later on, I mean, we’ll talk about a few more cameos, I think, as we talk about the movie, but it just, the whole thing reminded me about something that we talked about when we did Intruder, when we talked about Evil Dead 2, and when we talked about Blood Rage, and all of these movies that kind of happened around this time period.

Well, this is 88, so it’s a little later in that time period. But still, Almost seemed like this mini community of independent horror filmmakers in each other’s movies and just kind of helping each other out and like, Oh, like, I’ll cast you in this, and I’m gonna write this, and so because I’m writing this, like, I’ll put you in it because I usually do that, and then I’m gonna direct this, but I’m a director, but I also act on the side, and I’m gonna have like a cameo role in this thing.

All before half of these people were wildly famous. Sounds just… blissful, like college, you know, like filmmaking college, all these guys are just helping each other out and being each other’s movies and they’re all equally kind of silly and but they’re fun and reaching people and we’re talking about them here and in 2023.

So it was so cool to see this. And for me, this was the fun of the film. And of course, the campiness of it. I agree 

Craig: with you. I think No, I think that’s super fun too. I mean, it’s kind of like, you know, there’s a group of them now, like, like you’re next and is it Wingard, I think is one of them and 

Todd: West and it’s like the modern version of that.

Craig: Yeah. I can’t think of the woman’s name. There’s a female. Director, she was in your neck. She, she played the youngest daughter. Anyway, so it’s, yeah, I like that stuff too. I like when you can get a sense of community in, in the filmmakers and that’s like half of this, but then as I kind of already mentioned, the other half are all of these like really old school actors, when I say old school, like 1988, they’re in there.

Twilight years and, and you look them up on IMDb and they’ve been acting since like the 40s. Right. Like their, their IMDb pics are like these black and white old school Hollywood shots. Like, it’s wild. And, and like I said, they’re not. Necessarily anybody that was a huge star, but you recognize them from things, and I found all that interesting.

Todd: Frickin Buck Flowers had a small room. 

Craig: He was in the Police Brutality PSA, wasn’t he? Yeah! 

Todd: He was, it was so cute. I 

Craig: know, and it was blink and you miss it too, but you hear that voice. 

Todd: It warms your heart. 

Craig: It really does. Alright, so, I guess, like That’s the thing, to talk about the plot, First of all, there’s really nothing to it.

Second of all, like, when you get into the weeds of it, It’s so stupid.

Todd: At least it jumps right into it without any exposition. Well, I guess 

Craig: there’s like five minutes of a cop getting dressed in close up. The credits. And, right, and they tell us, he puts on a shake, he puts on a name tag, so we know who it is. 

Todd: No secret there. It doesn’t even matter. No, it 

Craig: doesn’t matter because it’s dumb.

And then, there’s a big shot of the Twin Towers, which is always… Kind of a weird, surreal thing. ’cause this is supposed to take place in New York, even though they only shot there for what, like three days? Mm-hmm. , and then shot the rest of it in Los Angeles. And, and 

Todd: you can kind of, it sure feels like they’re in New York though.

They faked it. Well, I thought it was good. I felt 

Craig: like they tried harder in the beginning and then by the end they were like, yeah, whatever. , . There’s like palm trees. Like, I don’t remember. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t think there are palm trees in New York, but what do I know? Yeah, so, okay, so it gets right to the action, like there’s this tense chase scene where this woman is being relentlessly chased by these two muggers on a New York City street without, with no other people in sight, like there’s one guy that like looks up from taking out his garbage.

Now, I’ve never been to New York, but I can’t imagine that it’s, maybe I’m wrong, maybe the streets of New York go quiet at night, for all I know, but she runs for like blocks and blocks and sees nobody, like, I thought New York was one of the most populated… Cities in the world. Anyway, but they chase her for like, they really want her purse mad.

I guess if she’s the only woman on the street, she 

Todd: must, you know, they got nobody else, 

Craig: they chase her forever. And eventually she runs up to this. This HUGE cop, who we only see in silhouette, we don’t see his face until the very end but he’s enormous, and he picks her up by the head and breaks her neck.

Oh god. And then, and then Frank, and then Frank McRae. Detective, detective, lieutenant, I don’t know, something. I love that name. Suited cop, Frank McRae. If 

Todd: I were to ever write a police procedural, Frank McRae would be at the top of my name lists for the police detective. And 

Craig: Tom Atkins, I didn’t even bother to look up because I was like, oh, that guy that’s in everything.

Can, do you have like a point of reference for him? I don’t know. He’s been in everything. Do 

Todd: I know what Tom Atkins has been in? He has got like 82 credits to his name. And 

Craig: he always plays the same character, it seems like. He does. Some 

Todd: version of this character. I would love this guy’s career. You know, he’s been around since the sixties and mostly on television, but you know, for horror fans, he was in the fog.

He was an escape from New York. It seems like he played a lot of stuff. We just did creep show recently, and he was the father in creep show, the angry father, and then Halloween three. Oh, right, yeah. Night of the creeps. And then, you know, he’s in like Lethal Weapon, just a, just a year before this movie.

Very recognizable. He’s 

Craig: on the case, because they think the muggers killed that girl, but he’s like, Do you see the size of those? What does he say? What is, what’s the technical, what’s the tech Do you see the size of those hematomas? Yeah. 

Todd: Oh my 

Craig: god. You think either of those guys could have done that?

Todd: It’s just weird how, and I don’t even know how, he suddenly jumps to the conclusion that it was a cop that killed her. I don’t either, but 

Craig: he is confident about it from the beginning. I mean, 

Todd: he’s right. He’s right, but he immediately knows. It’s super convenient that this guy who, you know, in the first five minutes of the movie…

Is on the case, and knows exactly what’s going on. Now it’s just about him trying to convince everybody else. With very little detective work involved. 

Craig: And, and in trying to convince, who’s he talking to? He’s talking to the commissioner, or the mayor, or somebody, I don’t know. And he’s trying, he’s like it’s, it’s, it’s one of us for sure, I just know it.

So we should look into their files and see if they’ve, you know had any violent incidents, or tried to kill themselves. The guy’s like, didn’t you try to kill yourself? 

Todd: I didn’t even 

Craig: understand 

Todd: this stupid. No, he was like, did you have an incident too? Yeah. Where he killed somebody, right? Wasn’t, weren’t they talking about No, I think he’s trying to kill, 

Craig: he was trying to, trying to kill himself.

Oh, okay. Because his, his partner died. I assume his partner died in the line of duty. I don’t know. But I don’t know. All I remember, it was very confusing to me because the only thing that he would say about it was the gun went off. Well, yeah, that tends to happen when you pull the trigger. Like, I don’t understand the context.

What does that mean? And, and what, it doesn’t make any difference. Like this never comes up again. There’s no 

Todd: characterization. We’re not going to get deep into this guy’s character. Anybody is. 

Craig: No, no. And this movie is. It’s stupid. Because, like, the, the main, like, it will just cut back and forth, like, okay, the police, let’s talk for a little while, okay, back to the maniac cop, killing a rando, okay.

And again, you never see him, all you see that he’s enormous and he has the biggest jawline. 

Todd: Oh, yeah. Insane jawline. Did you look this guy up on IMDb, by the way? Robert Dazar. Yeah, I saw he 

Craig: I think he was a Bond villain, maybe, at one point. He’s done a lot of 

Todd: stuff. Yeah. I thought for sure, like, half of his stuff was prosthetic, and it’s like, nope.

All they had to do was put a couple boils on his face, and it’s him. He has an insane, wide face with the deep jawline and stuff. He was in 124 movies, and… I’m sure, always, bad guy. Well, yeah, he’s huge. He was all over television, he’s huge, he’s got this huge jawline, this wide face, like, honestly, weird looking dude.

Dude was in an episode of Growing Pains, I’m sure it was an episode of Growing Pains where somebody broke into the house or something, cause I can’t imagine. I can’t imagine anything else! You know what 

Craig: I mean? We only ever see him like, like lit from behind, you never really see his face, I mean you can’t, you can’t miss, like his silhouette is huge and bizarre, but, right.

But he just like he just kills people like he and you said a huge knife He does like in his nightstick There’s like a concealed 12 inch knife that he cuts people with but like he pulls some Dude out of his car and kills him and then he chases he handcuffs some guy and chases him down the street and drowns him and Cement, I guess.

Todd: There’s like three killings in like the first ten min Just random killings in the first ten minutes. Yeah. I thought that was cool, that bit where he buried some dude’s face in wet cement and then it’s, I guess the cement dried really quickly the next morning they’re using pile drivers to like break it apart to get him out.

That was funny. 

Craig: I like that. Yeah, it was kind of cute, but like, that, the aftermath, like, them, like, jackhammering to try to get his body out. That was funny, but really, like, the, the kills are nothing, they’re nothing special at all. They’re not, they’re not exciting, they don’t look good, like, you don’t see very much.

I don’t know, I 

Todd: thought they were rather… Brutal. I mean, if you cared about these characters, that’s the problem, right? These are just randos that you met like 10 seconds before. So you don’t really care. So you’re not invested. If you were invested, honestly, I think these were shot quite well. The editing is tight.

The, you know, they’re going for suspense and all that stuff. It’s sort of like the Roger Corman quota of killing, you know, we need to have boobs within the first 10 minutes and, and, you know, three people killed before Five minutes is up, you know, that kind of thing. 

Craig: Well, they need, they need to establish really quickly that this guy is super dangerous and he’s just killing people at random because then they have to get, you know, the whole town all worked up.

But God, there’s so, so many hilarious things to me. Like McCray thinks it’s a cop. But the commissioner’s like, no, no, no, we got to keep this between us. So he immediately runs to a reporter who I guess he knows, like this sexy woman reporter. And he’s like, they, they said we have to keep it under wraps. So I want you to report it on the news tomorrow night.

And so then you hear her reporting it. She’s like, an anonymous source tells us that we will, there’s a crazy cop on the loose. And everybody needs to be terrified of. Cops and they’re like that anonymous source told us that tomorrow. We’ll be speaking with detective Frank McRae who has inside information

Todd: Honestly this makes very little sense the motivations of him to expose it like all this stuff none of it makes sense It’s just total Hollywood stuff now I have to ask you because I know we independently watch these movies Did the version that you watched have scenes with the mayor in it? I don’t know 

Craig: I don’t, 

Todd: I don’t think so.

Was there a moment in the film where suddenly the film quality got really, really weird? Like, completely different? And there are these shots with the mayor? 

Craig: No, I saw a cigarette burn at one point, but that was really 

Todd: quick. I think the version that I saw had obviously previously deleted scenes edited in.

There was a whole character in this movie that I think… Was cut out of the final product. There was a mayor named Jerry. I don’t know, there were like five. Separate, short scenes, peppered throughout the film. Where as I was watching, it was like the film quality went completely shitty. And it’s the mayor talking about, Oh my God, there’s this guy, like, you know, he’s killing people.

We gotta keep it under wraps. And then, Oh my God, this guy’s killing people, and I think I might know who it is, and he might have a thing against me. And then, you know, his advisors are like, Oh my God, this guy, he’s still killing people. You’re in danger, and all that. And he’s like, Oh, well, I had this thing against him, and that’s probably why.

And then, it comes in at the end. So, you didn’t see any of that. I don’t 

Craig: think so. I, I honestly don’t remember. You would remember. Yeah, I definitely didn’t, the version I saw definitely didn’t have scenes that were obviously lower film quality. So, I, I, it must have been I, I streamed it on Peacock. In case anybody’s curious.

Once everybody’s all scared of the cops, then some woman has car trouble, and a cop comes to help her and she blows his head off. Right. This is such a wild movie. It’s crazy. Then there’s the Bruce Campbell side plot, and I didn’t know that he was in this until I looked, you know, IMDb page just to have the cast, I wanna, you know, I wanna, be able to write down who each character is or whatever.

And I was like, Oh, Bruce Campbell’s in this and he’s like almost top build. He has an integral part, but yeah, he doesn’t get to do anything fun and Bruce Campbell y like. He’s just kind of a lame duck character, 

Todd: basically. He said he took the movie because he needed work. He said at the time he thought there was something to it, but obviously in retrospect he said no, it’s definitely not a good film.

But it’s weird to think, I mean this is early Bruce Campbell, because at this time when he took this and he said he needed work, I believe he had just gotten off of Evil Dead 2, so we’re talking… We’re talking Evil Dead, you know, his first big movie. He probably didn’t make any money on that though. Yeah, probably not.

I mean, you know, that was 1981. Well, that was 88. He was in like Crime Wave, which Sam Raimi directed, but then they did Evil Dead 2 in 87. So the 87, the year before this was Evil Dead 2, it, it might’ve barely been out. And it, I don’t think it was a huge, like. box office smash, you know? And so he did Maniac Cop the year after this, and then he had a very small bit part in Intruder the year after this in 89.

So this is the early point of of Bruce Campbell’s career, before he did Army of Darkness in like 92, and then he was, you know, subsequently like on television, he did Briscoe County Junior in 93 and stuff like that. So obviously by that point he didn’t need work, but at this point, yeah, he’s still starting out and he needed to work, and he just said, ah, I took this movie.

At the time, I thought it might be interesting, but like, once I saw it, I was like, Oh, God, that was horrible. So, 

Craig: yeah. Yeah, and he, and he’s fine and he’s young and handsome and He looks 

Todd: great 

Craig: in this. Yeah, he does. And, and he has a really, like, I mean, it’s one of his trademark things. He’s got a really distinctive jawline too.

Like I read that him and Robert Zadar both. have the nickname The Chin. So it makes sense, like this guy, Robert Zadar, the Maniac Cop, whose name, by the way, is Matt Cordell, and I had already been abbreviating in my notes, Maniac Cop MC, and then when I realized his name was Matt Cordell, I’m like, that is so charming.

Todd: Wow. I didn’t 

Craig: catch that. Hilarious. But they, they both share the nickname, The Chin, which makes sense because Bruce Campbell is not an enormous person, but he’s really tall. Like I forget how tall he is. Yeah. And he has a wife, but he’s having an affair. Clear something up for me in that first scene where we meet him and he’s getting he’s putting on his uniform and his wife is like, I don’t know, there’s obviously tension in their marriage and she’s acting weird.

Was there not a baby crying in the background of 

Todd: that scene? Oh, I didn’t hear that at all. Oh my 

Craig: god, I swear to god there was a baby crying. And then, there’s never any mention of a baby. Well, I wouldn’t 

Todd: doubt it. I wouldn’t doubt it. I mean, you know, I wouldn’t put it past this movie to sort of stick that in and then forget about it.

Like, this wife character is so ridiculous. We’re introduced to Bruce Campbell. She’s in the kitchen clipping articles about this killer for reasons I have no idea and putting them in some kind of scrapbook. She thinks it’s him. Yeah, why would she be clipping them and putting them in a scrapbook? I have no idea.

Anyway. And they’re having this, again, I love Larry Cohen because I love what he has made and I enjoy watching his movies. And he’s a high concept writer and he’s good at plotting. Honestly, like the dialogue in a lot of the stuff we’ve seen of him is laughable and silly. And the dialogue in this is just over the top melodrama between the two of them that we’re thrown into.

And it’s just silly. You used to talk to me. Look, you’re the one that dropped out of the therapy. I was willing to go and I was willing to pay the bills. 

Craig: So it’s all my 

Todd: fault now, is it?

I did everything I could to hold this marriage together. You talk like it’s already over. Yeah, well, it’s not enough to talk. You have to listen, too. I suppose that’s why you’re taking so much overtime, to get away from me. Is it something else? What’s that supposed to mean? Sometimes you wake up screaming like you can’t breathe.

Sometimes I get afraid that you might hurt me in your sleep. He’s, like, the picture of calm. You know, business like, getting ready for his day, and she feels, she looks like she’s on the verge of suicide. Yes! You know, the way she’s just super distraught, and, and he’s quite dismissive, and she says she thinks she’s hearing things.

I mean, they’re these things that you sort of feel like we’re going for character development, like we’re gonna see her more, and like there’s gonna be some kind of thing, and… And there’s not, it’s just, we barely see her again after this. He leaves, she 

Craig: follows him. Yeah. To a motel where she catches him f ing this blonde lady.

Todd: But wait a minute, before this happens, the phone rings right after he leaves and somebody goes He went out again, didn’t he? And she’s like, why do you keep calling me? Why do you keep doing this to me? I’m like, okay, this is interesting. Like, there’s some thread happening here. This maniac cop is out there.

There’s this weird shit with the mayor. There’s this other cop who’s obviously, their marriage is in turmoil. And then this woman, his wife, is getting these bizarre phone calls that she’s apparently been getting for a while and yada yada yada. So she goes to follow him. And she finds out, like you said, that he’s banging some other cop, some female cop in a motel down the street.

And then she catches him in the act. She holds him at gunpoint, you know, it’s very dramatic, and she runs away, and then she just gets pulled into a car randomly by the maniac cop. And the next morning, the maid of the hotel comes in and finds her dead in that same room that Bruce Campbell’s character Jack and that chick Giselle?

Was that her name? Giselle? Whatever. 

Craig: I don’t know, Teresa. 

Todd: Oh, Teresa, yes, we’re in. So, and then… That’s it. So I was like who was calling her like that was a thing that just immediately got dropped And I have no idea what that shit was about. 

Craig: I don’t even remember how all of it unfolds I just remember that it’s so convoluted.

So like because his wife gets murdered They think it’s him. They think he’s the maniac cop and they find the wife’s murder scrapbook and like in her diary She writes about how she thinks he’s the maniac cop. And so every everything points to him He fit like he fits the physical profile more or less.

He’s tall and white and He’s basically 

Todd: been framed for all this. Yeah 

Craig: Right. So then the question, so which again, McCray just instinctively knows like, Oh no, no, he’s, he’s, he didn’t do it. He would never.

Yeah. Somebody, somebody is framing him. Something weird is going on. And then I don’t need to, then he hooks up with like, not, not figured out literally meets. Right. He meets up with the mistress. who is also a cop, an undercover hooker cop. Hooker cop. Oh my god. The 80s, I swear to god, the 80s was all about cocaine and machine guns and undercover hooker 

Todd: cops.

Yeah, it’s like Vice. The only thing we cared about was the Vice squad, right? Right, right. Miami Vice was on TV. There was smoke in every alley. It was beautiful. I kind of missed it. 

Craig: Explained something else to me when we’re, when we see her and she’s undercover as a hooker, a john pulls up in the car and they have an exchange where he wants to engage her services, but it seems like she needs him to say, Say it.

Like, it can’t be you know, just insinuated. He has to, you know, say something incriminating. So she’s like digging. And eventually he says, hold on a second. Are you a cop? And then really coyly, she’s like, you know, you get the golden question. And he’s, I don’t know, he’s like, I’m just gonna go home and be by myself, and she’s like, well, I can’t arrest you for that, and they smile at each other and he drives away.

What was that all about? Was the insinuation that because he asked if she was a cop, she had to tell him, and… That’s why she let him go. 

Todd: I think it was just he was too clever for her. Yeah, I mean, I mean it’s entrapment. That was just so like, I don’t even understand how this works in real life. I honestly don’t, I don’t get it.

I don’t either be, well, 

Craig: like I remember, I remember hearing in college like, I don’t know these like, you know, bad kids that I knew who would like buy. Marijuana from other people they would be like if you ask if they’re a cop they have to tell you I don’t think 

Todd: that that’s true No, I don’t think that’s true at all.

No, it’s not true at all. 

Craig: I think that that is an urban legend, but this movie seems to insinuate that it’s true because when he’s like, are you a cop? She’s like, oh you got me you old dirty charmer you get out of here Maybe that’s true Anyway, so then she walks He’s down a dark alley by herself and comes into contact with the maniac 

Todd: cop.

Which, you know, it’s silly, right? Because, like, he’s just sort of randomly… For a while… He’s after her specifically because it’s a whole plot. It is, but let’s be clear. Like, this is a guy with a motivation, right? He was ousted from the police force. We’ll get to that later. But my point is, like… Until it’s convenient for the movie to, like, get to that, he’s just killing random people.

He’s not working towards his goal. No, he 

Craig: is! Like, she’s not random! No, 

Todd: she isn’t! But the, like, three people we saw him kill before this were just, like, three total 

Craig: randos. Yeah, but he wasn’t supposed to kill those people. That was him going rogue. That was not part of the plan, which becomes an issue later.

But he’s after her because she’s the only one who knows that she’s, she’s Bruce Campbell’s alibi. Right. So he needs to get her out of the way because Bruce Campbell is his scapegoat. Yeah, right, but but he doesn’t he I don’t know he he picks her up by the neck or something but Frank McRae is Right there there and they both shoot him multiple times.

This makes no sense Like yeah, I don’t know explain they never never do because she even says she even says it couldn’t have been just Bulletproof vest. I shot him in the face at least twice. 

Todd: Yeah. What? So, but yeah. Bullets 

Craig: don’t hurt him. Yeah. For reasons unexplained. Now, okay, so here’s where it starts to get really convoluted.

Because Frank McRae is talking to her and he’s like, You had to have told somebody about the affair. Somebody else had to have known. She’s like, No, I didn’t tell anybody. Wait, except for my friend, Sally. This random woman in the police office. Except for my crippled friend, Sally. At the police station.

That’s hilarious. Okay, so let’s go talk to… Wait, 

Todd: before we talk to Sally, and I want you to talk about Sally, but before we talk about Sally, I have to just… I just have to highlight my favorite line in the whole movie. And I don’t know why this just tickled me pink, but he gets injured in this and he goes to the police report and to the police office.

And of course, he’s going to talk to Sally. He signs in. The police officer sees his hand all bandaged up and he says, Hey, Frank, what’d you do with your hand? And he says. I cut myself shaving. 

Craig: Yeah. That was a good one. There are some 

Todd: other good ones, too. That was brilliant. 

Craig: One of my favorite ones is later.

Oh, well, we’ll get to it in just a second. So he goes to see… Crippled isn’t a nice word, but this is a silly movie, so he goes to see Cripple Sally, who has a brace on her leg, and limps around, and, I don’t know, like, they talk, and Nothing comes of their conversation. Sally, by the way, is played by Cherie North, who one of our patrons alerted me in advance was somebody that I would recognize from The Golden Girls.

She played Blanche’s sister, Virginia, on The Golden Girls. Oh, nice! Gary, thank you, Gary, for pointing that out. I, I did recognize her right away, but I had forgotten about that, and so I, I, I empty beat her and she was in, and I was like, oh yeah, she’s totally Virginia from the Golden Girls. But she also played Kramer’s mom on, on Seinfeld.

Oh, no way. She’s been acting since she was young, and she’s done tons and tons of stuff. She’s hilarious in this because she’s just kind of standoffish with him, but then he follows her and she immediately goes to the docks where she meets with the maniac cop. At the docks. I know and she meets with the maniac cop and she’s like you gotta stop killing these good people.

You’re only supposed to kill bad people like the 

Todd: mayor and the commissioner and the people you have a problem with. Yeah. 

Craig: Like we gotta, we gotta stick to the plan so you can get to the, yeah, like he’s got this vendetta. Oh, okay. First. So, okay. So, so McCray is following them and he like. kicks a paint can or something so she doesn’t see him but she shoots blindly into the night but he gets away and he he’s walking off of the docks and like the dock 

Todd: guard I’m so glad you’re gonna point this out I had it written down too Hey, you!

What 

Craig: are you doing? Whoa, take it easy. What are you doing? 

Todd: I had to take a leak. You always take a leak with a gun in your hand? It’s a 

Craig: good way to blow your balls off.

Oh, the writing is so funny. And McCray says something like, Oh, the city’s going to hell. You can’t take a leak anywhere anymore. Like, oh boy, oh boy. And then, okay, so then Maniac Cop takes a nap on the dock and we get to see a flashback where, okay, so I guess I guess he was a cop, and he was really celebrated because he was really ruthless and he took down all these bad people until, I don’t know, something happened.

Yes, 

Todd: that’s unclear. I’ll tell you why. I’ll tell you what we know. Because I think it was cut out. So, like, the bits and pieces with the mayor that I saw that you didn’t see insinuate that he was really… He was like a super cop and he was involved in like taking down the mob. But if you know anything about New York city and like the eighties and seventies, like the mob basically ruled the city and, and they had their feelers and everything.

And the insinuation here is that I was too close to the mayor who also like. I guess had a relationship with the mob and so the mayor himself was dirty and so yeah, he was kind of like okay That’s too far, and I’m gonna protect the mob people and so he kind of sort of had him put away 

Craig: I felt like in the version that I saw it was just kind of implied that he was too rough or too violent like He was getting bad guys, but it was kind of like vigilante and, and so not only was he kicked off the police force, but he was put in prison 

Todd: where, 

Craig: okay, so he does this long walk down.

Like, I mean you see this in the movie all the time where they bring in the newbie and all the other prisoners are Licking their lips 

Todd: or whatever. Sneering at them, yeah. 

Craig: Todd, I have seen, I have seen this scene in so many movies And usually it’s like, really scary, like, oh, these people want to kill me I swear to God, the look that all of these Those guys wanted to 

Todd: f k me.

Craig: Every single one of them was looking at him like, Oh man, you’re gonna get me a piece of that. Well, that’s 

Todd: legit. Yeah, it’s true. Cause that’s kind of what happens. He’s 

Craig: attacked in the shower. Yeah, he gets attacked in the shower and he fights them naked, like they, of course you never see any nudity. He 

Todd: kicks their asses.

Big time. Yeah. 

Craig: Oh boy. But they, they, they shank him. Yeah. He shanked him a bunch of times and they cut up his face. Now, this goes on for a while, like all of this like unspools over time. Meanwhile, Bruce Campbell is in jail and the cops are trying to get him out. McCray and the, the lady cop are trying to get him out.

Frank is coming in. Yep. But eventually. We find out God. Oh, well, there’s a slot right? Okay. There’s a whole slaughter at 

Todd: the Police precinct. Yeah, it just suddenly escalates. Yeah, Frank goes to the computer. He runs through that chick’s purse. He sees a glove I guess that is meaningful to him. I mean, it’s meaningful to us because we saw the cop wearing gloves But I don’t know why it would be meaningful to him She jumps behind him and starts beating him down with her cane Runs out of the hallway but screams because there’s another cop hanging there dead and then maniac cop breaks through like a window and a door And pulls her through and then starts Banging her against the wall.

That was hilarious, by the way. That was 

Craig: crazy! Yeah.

Hahaha! She’s this old lady in a leg brace, and he’s just 

Todd: slamming her against the wall. Frank’s shooting at her, then he starts grabbing Frank and throwing him around. He slams Frank against every filing cabinet in the entire room, of which there are many. And then he throws him out the window. Yeah, throws him out the window.

So he’s dead. I was surprised. I thought he would. Yeah, 

Craig: he could be kind of seems to be the main 

Todd: character. That would, by the way, that was a nice stunt. That was really cool. I mean, this is the era where stunts were real and yeah, he falls down from a significant height. There are multiple shots on this and it lands on the car.

I was like, that is really impressive. It 

Craig: did look good. Yeah, well, the maniac cops slaughters Sally. I don’t understand why, because we find out that they had a relationship later, and he kills, I don’t know, a dozen police officers. 

Todd: No, the entire police, the entire, the station is gone. Like like Jack and what’s her name?

Teresa? Teresa. Teresa. They run out. Just past body after body like the whole he’s killed everyone in the station And then he just sort of Jack runs off and 

Craig: well and somehow somehow or other they have found out Who this guy is the Matt or whatever is it? Yeah Matt Cordell They found out who it is, but he’s supposed to be dead.

Like, he was supposed to have died from that incident. And, but they’re like, let’s, we need to drive to the prison to find out if there’s some way that he can still be alive. 

Todd: Right, right. And, and by the way, at this point in the version I saw, there was a scene between the mayor and like his lackey or whatever.

And the mayor was drinking scotch in his office and freaking out. And he was like, he won’t be satisfied until he’s got me. And then we get some voiceover and some really nice helicopter shots, like you said. They decide they’re going to the prison, and so this is some more establishing shots of like, Hey, we’re still in New York.

Of, of like, them on the metro train, heading to the prison, and they go into the prison, and they’ve gotta prove that Cordell is still alive, or he’s in trouble. I, I don’t know, it’s like… Weird, so they meet with the prison doctor. 

Craig: So dumb. It’s so stupid. It’s like, then he tells, I don’t know, he’s like, oh yeah when he was on the table, like dead, covered in a sheet completely saturated with blood the doctor just casually hears that his heart is still beating once every Starts 

Todd: feeling his pulse, yeah, putting his thing on, it’s like a whole flashback sequence.

So 

Craig: stupid, and so apparently what he did God, it’s so convoluted. The reason, the reason that Sally… Okay, so when the maniac cop went to prison, Sally tried to kill herself. That’s why she’s crippled now, 

Todd: because she threw herself out a window. Threw herself out a window? What?

Hahahaha! What? 

Craig: Okay. But, but, but when this doctor at the prison finds out that this… Cops not dead. He’s like, I can’t put him back in prison. They, they’ll just, they’ll just kill him. They’ll just kill him again. 

Todd: So, 

Craig: so he calls Sally. And apparently Sally comes in, gets him and, and they’re like, are you kidding?

You just let him go. And. He’s like he’s like brain dead. He can’t function as a person. Oh, 

Todd: okay. He says, I was telling the truth when I signed that death certificate. Yeah. He was brain dead, so there was no way he could function as a human being. Like, what kind of doctor would say somebody is literally dead?

When they’re actually still alive. It’s dumb. A 

Craig: really stupid movie doctor. It’s dumb. So, they know who he is. I mean, 

Todd: who cares at this point? Well, he had sympathy. He was like, Oh, but the system screwed him and blah blah blah. So I had to kind of let him go and yadda yadda yadda. And then, after Jack and Therese leave, a random orderly or somebody walks in and says, Here doctor, put on this tie.

It’s like a green tie. And she just… He’s like, Oh, he’s just like, you know, it’s St. Patrick’s Day, right? 

Craig: That was hilarious. That was the funniest. Because then the plot, then the plot immediately centers around St. Patrick’s Day. That was 

Todd: so funny. It was so funny. Oh God, I can’t talk enough about this. The clunky transition to somehow St.

Patrick’s Day. So apparent, so then suddenly it’s a St. Patrick’s Day parade. And we get footage of the St. Patrick’s Day parade in New York City. And Sam Raimi. As a reporter and that I was so thrilled because I looked at him and I immediately I was like, oh my god, Sam Raimi Reporting on the St. Patrick’s Day Parade, and apparently, Sam Raimi shot this footage of the St.

Patrick’s Day Parade before they even started filming this. He used some of it I guess they used it to like, even get funding for the movie. So that they could just stick this in. And then, from then on, every time we get a shot of someone’s office, like the police commissioner, whatever, they have St.

Patrick’s Day decorations in there. Like, who? Decorates their office for St. Patrick’s Day by putting up random green banners and sticking some shamrocks on their desk and on the walls and blowing up balloons and putting them by the window. Oh my god. 

Craig: It was funny. It was really funny and it was all just so that they could have, you know some cool footage of the parade.

And it was, it was cool 

Todd: and it was funny. I guess it adds production value, right? It does, 

Craig: it does! And it, it, it, honest to God, does. It adds production value to this pretty crappy movie. But for whatever reason Therese and Jack go back to the 

Todd: police station? But, but let me tell you. Again, in the version I saw, there was another scene in here with the mayor.

And there’s a guy who jumps into the mayor’s office like, Man! You gotta come down to the parade. You said you’d make an appearance. You need to make an appearance. And he’s like, There’s no way I’m not safe. I’m staying here. I’m gonna stay here in my office, and I want the security around me doubled. Well, 

Craig: that’s so weird, because I She goes in there, I guess, to tell them what they’ve figured out, but they don’t believe her.

They think that she’s just his 

Todd: accomplice. Yeah, and she’s his 

Craig: accomplice right and but then who because there’s there’s shaft and then there’s a white guy huh, 

Todd: the police chief or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, 

Craig: so I don’t think I ever saw the mayor cuz we they walk away but never do maniac cop maniac cop just comes up behind them and Slaughters them and then the the cop that they left with what’s her but he like hits on her for a while which was weird and then Handcuffs himself to her, and so the maniac cop kills him, and she has to drag him around.

That was hilarious. Let’s 

Todd: be fair, this was a cool scene. Like, I loved that bit where they were walking to the elevator, the door closes but there’s kind of a window in the doors. They see a hand with a knife come through. The maniac cop kills them. Like, I thought that, from a filmmaking perspective, this was really good.

It’s, it felt Yeah, I liked it. I really liked it. 

Craig: It was fine. I mean, it was one shot for like one second.

Todd: She’s handcuffed to this guy and she’s trying to get through the door, but like, he’s a burden and so like, they’re kind of stuck and you don’t know where he is and you, you know, she covered in blood and, and stuff. I don’t know. I, I thought it was honestly, I thought that whenever. There was like a murder scene or wherever there was like you know, like action or whatever that it was well filmed.

I was impressed that fricking William Lustig did this movie. I didn’t 

Craig: think it looked bad. I thought it looked fine. 

Todd: I thought it looked better than fine. I thought it was good. I mean, look, I mean, the movie’s silly, but the cinematography and the staging of these scenes was skillful. I thought. Anyway. Well, 

Craig: you are more talented.

Technically knowledgeable about that stuff than I am, but God, it’s so dumb. Bruce Campbell comes in to save her, 

Todd: I guess. Well, she tosses a chair out the window. She’s like climbing on the ledge and stuff. Like, this was kind of exciting. I like this bit. It was alright. What? Look, I’m just trying to get my nuggets where I could get them.

Yeah. 

Craig: Well, my favorite. He comes in to save her and I think like, you know, a bunch of people are dead and the cops still think that he did it. But. Two cops like run in and he’s like, he’s like, hey put your guns down. I didn’t do it I didn’t do any of this and they’re like, oh, yeah sure and he’s like Hey put your guns down and they do and he’s like get on the ground and And they do and then he and Therese run away and one of the cops says hey, man Are we gonna go after him?

And the other cop says you heard him. He didn’t do it 

Todd: That was funny. That was hilarious 

Craig: Hey man, we gonna go after it? 

Todd: That was brilliant writing. No, I give him, I give Larry Cohen full credit for that. Just like, you know, my favorite line earlier, about cutting yourself shaving. I laughed so hard at that, it was funny.

But then, they spring out, right? And the police, the police officer 

Craig: I’m mixing things up, that was earlier, like I’m No, you’re right. No, because this time she goes out the window and like the maniac cop is like pursuing her outside the window But then we cut down to Jack who is still outside and the the cops at the parade Recognize him and isn’t that Forrest?

Let’s get him. Yeah, and they grab him and they throw him in the paddy wagon Did you but did you recognize one of those guys? No, I don’t think so the 

Todd: the lead of those two the one who had lines who was like, isn’t that Forrest? Let’s get him. I was like, holy shit That is the dude from Intruder. Oh… No. He was the guy, right?

Remember? I just love this story! Ha ha ha! 

Craig: Oh… The bad guy. I remember that guy. 

Todd: Yeah! I did. He’s in… He was in several of Sam Raimi’s movies. He was in Darkman, and he was the… Do you remember in Evil Dead 2? The… The kind of hillbilly type, yeah. Redneck guy who 

Craig: came up… That was him! Oh, funny. No, I didn’t recognize him.

Throw… They throw Jack in the paddy wagon, and then, the maniac cop… Who was just upstairs, is now down there. 

Todd: In the paddy wagon. 

Craig: He commandeers it, and drives it away, and… I don’t even know, like… This was fun! Teresa… I love this bit! There’s like a chase, Teresa and some rando cop. Like she hooks up with some 

Todd: rando cop.

Yeah, she just hops into his car, and they drive off chasing this guy. And I thought this was a nice… Chase scene. Honestly, it was really well filmed. It was fine. It was great. But the hilarious bit is, meanwhile, in the back, Bruce Campbell is getting absolutely bashed up. He’s like, every time this, this van turns from side to side, like, he’s handcuffed in the back of this thing.

He’s the only one back there in this big, empty van. And he’s just getting slammed against this side, slammed against that side, tossed on the floor and things. And I thought, my god, I’m kind of surprised Sam Raimi didn’t direct this movie. Because he sort of famously liked putting Bruce Campbell in these sort of…

Three Stooges type situations where he’s just getting thrown around and abused and this felt like it. Did you notice 

Craig: how hard that cop threw him up against the side of the truck? Like when the cops grabbed him whoever that actor was who grabbed him threw him up against the side of the paddy wagon really hard.

I was like. Dang

So maniac cop drives back to the docks, I don’t know cuz he lives there. I don’t know 

Todd: why Why did 

Craig: I know I so he goes there and then there’s kind of a showdown like we and we Finally see his face and he’s all cut up and stuff. Like it’s not even really that bad. Like he’s just kind of got scars on his face.

He’s a menacing looking dude, but as far as like gross factor, it’s not, it’s not that big a deal. And he almost kills Bruce Campbell, but then rando cop. Shoots him a couple times, but then he kills Rando Cop, and… 

Todd: Teresa’s got a shotgun, she shoots him a couple times, He ends up back in the van in in the paddy wagon somehow, and he’s like 

Craig: he’s trying to escape, I guess, but It’s 

Todd: weird, it’s like but here’s the thing, like, here’s what I don’t understand.

What was his beef? With Bruce Campbell’s character. At this point. I guess he just foiled his plan. But then he doesn’t care, right? Like, they get in there, he parks his paddy wagon, he gets an axe, he axes open the back of the paddy wagon so that Bruce Campbell can come out. It seems like he wants to kill him, but then he sort of gets foiled by the other two.

Then he just jumps in the patty way and he starts driving away. Bruce Campbell’s character, Jack, is climbing towards him and clinging on to the side for dear life and he’s just sort of like, kinda trying to knock him away. It’s like he doesn’t give a shit about him anymore. I don’t know where he’s driving to and I don’t know what his point is.

Is he trying to kill the mayor? Who knows? But he’s far away from where the mayor is. It makes no sense. He just drives off the dock. It culminates in an awesome stunt and it looks fantastic it looks great he drives off the dock and this pylon or something that’s sticking out goes through the front of the of the paddy wang through the windshield into him and Bruce Campbell’s still hanging on to the side and they Fly off and there’s this like slowmo of them flying off with this thing on it.

And Bruce Campbell, I mean, it must’ve been a stunt man. Oh yeah. Flying into the water and the thing flies in the water and I’m like, fuck. Yeah. Like that looked great. . 

Craig: Yeah, I mean, just it, the, the truck flying off the dock into the water and Slowmo looked fantastic, but the fact, yeah, that there was a stunt man hanging off the side who, when it went over the dock, then like Swan dived off the thing and landed like, 10 feet away from it.

That was cool. Like, whoever that guy was, is a badass. 

Todd: I miss that shit so much, because nowadays, like, you just don’t believe anything you see. I don’t know. 

Craig: I’ve never seen, I’ve never seen a Mission Impossible movie, but apparently if you’re into that stuff, Tom Cruise is… Crazy person 

Todd: who’s doing all his own 

Craig: stuff.

Yeah, and all his own crate like I’m hanging off helicopters and blah, whatever Yeah, the birds. They still do it. I mean that whole franchise is built on that So it still happens you just but you you don’t see it like he used to you’re no 

Todd: And not in an independent film like this, you know, right lame ass independent movie.

So that was cool the whole 

Craig: ending happens very fast and then they they fish the truck out of the Hudson, I guess it’s supposed to be, I don’t know. His body’s not there. And then it, you know, wide shots out and you see down by one of the pylons of the dock, the maniac cop’s hand come up. So, he, he has 

Todd: survived.

And let me tell you, the version that I saw had an alternate ending, so… 

Craig: Really? I didn’t even read that there was 

Todd: a different version. I didn’t either, but I’m telling you So the hand goes up the pylon, and then it dissolves back to that mayor’s office again, with the scene of the mayor getting the news about the guy dying, and he’s like, sitting at his desk and whatever, and the camera pans across the room, and you see feet under the curtain, and then those feet walk out, and then you hear AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I don’t know why they 

Craig: would have cut that stuff out because with that stuff, the movie would have made so much more sense in the version that I saw his motivations were entirely unclear.

It just something bad happened. Something bad happened and he got kicked off the force and put in jail. And, you know, Sally says to him, you know, you gotta stop killing these random people because our remember our main goal is to get to the commissioner and the mayor. Why? Like, that’s never explained in the cut that I saw, so it doesn’t make any sense.

Not that these movies necessarily have to make a lot of sense, but it’s frustrating. It’s especially frustrating to know that, at one point, it may have made sense, and they intentionally cut that stuff. That’s weird. I don’t get it. And 25 minutes. I don’t… I don’t get it. 

Todd: Yeah. I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

Well, in any case, I don’t know how I ended up with this version of the movie, but it was clear that these sequences were cut and, and like restored because there was not even a great effort to restore them because they were, like the audio was super loud and the, the video was very off and grainy and looked washed out and, and stuff.

Because I, I 

Craig: look like I, on IMDB there’s a place that says if there’s alternate versions and it said. You know, and I, I don’t know, maybe in Europe or something, they cut like five seconds of when he got something violent. I don’t remember when he was getting slashed up or something. They cut a tiny, tiny little bit for some releases, but I didn’t see anything about cut scenes.

Yeah, it’s really 

Todd: strange. It was almost like there was some contractual issue and they just decided to cut this mayor guy out of the picture entirely so that he could get his money or something because it’s like he never appears in the film, but in these particular scenes. So, anyway. 

Craig: Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, the movie didn’t do well in theaters, but it did, like, incredibly well on home video and so well enough that it spawned a sequel, as you said, Bruce Campbell does reprise his role in the sequel he’s top billed, he’s got three minutes of screen time, he’s killed off in the first 15 minutes of the movie.

Todd: Robert Davi is in it, right? Like, he’s like, one of the Fratelli brothers and Goonies, he’s like a very recognizable dude. He’s like Christy 

Craig: Swanson.

Todd: Fair 

Craig: enough, fair enough. We won’t talk about him. But no, yeah, he’s in the, second one 

Todd: and the third one. Have you seen, I, I mean obviously, I haven’t seen this one. No, I’ve never seen it, yeah. Look, the second one and the third one are written by Larry Cohen and directed by William Lustig, just like this one, and Yeah, yeah, yeah, but did you read about the third one?

I did, I heard it’s like 

Craig: bullshit. Well, they wrote a whole different story that was supposed to feature a new character, a black detective. Yeah. But I, I guess that their biggest market The Japanese 

Todd: distributor, 

Craig: yeah. The Japanese distributor didn’t want A black protagonist. They wanted Robert Davy back.

And they, I guess they strong armed it so that they did get him back. But then the script didn’t make any sense. So they had to cut a bunch of scenes. So the initial cut only ran like 52 minutes. Right. And the producers wanted the director to go in and film new scenes, and he said no. So he just walked.

Yeah. So they brought in another director to fill it out. And apparently it’s a mess. I don’t know. I haven’t. Apparently it’s 

Todd: horrible. But the second one, apparently, again, according to what I read online, I haven’t seen it. is widely considered an improvement over the original. It’s got, like, some cool effects, it’s got some quirky characterizations.

It sort of stays true to the original, but it’s, like, widely regarded as much more superior. So, I I I I might actually… Like, you know, if we’re in the mood later on, I might be interested in watching the sequel and seeing if that’s true, because, yeah, maybe. I don’t know, you know, like, again, I was really anxious to see this movie because of its cult status and the fact that it kind of haunted me throughout, you know, my childhood and growing up, but I never actually sat down to watch it.

You know, I like the action, like I said, I thought actually it was well fun. Film for what it was. I mean, it just kind of a shitty movie, but had some cool like stunts in it. Had some cool scenes here and there had a few quippy lines and some people I recognized and enjoyed watching. And that was enough for me.

And so I, usually that’s enough for a film to gain cult status. But as far as like objectively saying like, no, it’s, it’s not a good movie. It’s no, I don’t, I couldn’t recommend it. To anyone besides, like, people like you and me, and maybe our listeners, right? Other than that, no. 

Craig: Yeah, that’s, I, I mean, I feel the same way, like as a completionist, I’m glad to have seen it, but I would never be compelled to see it again, and I, like you said, Yeah those of you who are listening, who are into horror as much as we are, I mean, we’ve seen worse, it’s not, It’s not terrible, but it’s not good either, so you’re really not missing anything.

Todd: But it had its, you know, kind of 80s nostalgic charm. 

Craig: Well, Bruce Campbell’s in it. He’s always fun. I mean, he doesn’t have a whole lot to do, but he’s young and handsome, and if you’re into him, like, that’s kind of cool. Yeah, you’re right. Like, it’s kind of a fun guess who game of, of horror people, so, you know, that’s, that’s kind of cool, but whatever.

That’s the best we can say. That’s it. I 

Todd: don’t know. Thank you friends for listening to this podcast. Also, thank you to our patrons for selecting this for us. It truly was great to finally have an excuse to sit down and review this movie. Once again, we really are grateful to our patrons for donating real money to this show and supporting us.

If you are interested also in becoming a part of our out with the cost that it takes to put this out to you every week as we have for the last what, eight, eight or nine years? Oh my God. God, it’s crazy. It’s been that long. It’s insane. Patreon. com slash chainsaw podcast. Five bucks a month is all you need to gain access to our Patreon channel.

You can get mini sodes, an exclusive interview with us, kind of behind the scenes of this podcast, where Greg puts out regular, like, little mini reviews of things that he’s seen. We have a robust conversations about stuff, a discord channel, as well as access to our unedited and uninterrupted phone calls.

The best support you can give us is simply by sharing this with a friend and letting more people know so that we can gain some listenership. Find us online just by googling “Two Guys and Chainsaw Podcast”. And drop us a note in all those places and let us know what you think. Until next time, I’m Todd.

And I’m Craig. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We had heard this was a cannibal film. Although technically correct, it’s not much of a horror flick after the first 10 minutes or so. A star-studded lineup only added to the mystery of why we had never heard of this movie before. Is it worth your time? Listen to find out!

The Bad Batch (2016)

Episode 358, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: Well, Craig, this week, um, I chose a movie that you had told me you were interested in doing. Um, I think what you did was forwarded me… An article on Bloody Disgusting that listed some lesser known cannibal movies.

And this was one of them. And you said, let’s start with this one. I just think it sounds great. 2016’s The Bad Batch, directed by…

Craig: I just, I just, I just …. Okay, sorry, sorry, I didn’t mean 

Todd: Oh, no, do you want me to read you exactly what you wrote?  

Craig: No, I don’t, but all I want to say is I have absolutely no memory of that.

I have no memory of reading that article, of sending it to you, of saying anything about it. I have no memory of it. I’ll, I believe you. I’ll take your word for it.

Todd: I have an email in front of me dated May 6th, because I thought you might try to deny this. This May? This, 2023, my friend. Were you drunk? I don’t know, it says, I want to do all of these, and there’s a link to an article.

I don’t necessarily want to do them all now, but they all sound interesting. I’d love to start with the Bad Batch, which I can’t believe I’ve never even f ing heard of. Anthropophagus really sounds interesting too, but if you’re up for the Bad Batch for next week, I would say don’t even read about it in this article if you haven’t heard of it.

I think you’ll be surprised by all the people in it. I was. So…  

Craig: Yeah, well that stands. I, that, that’s true. And it is true that I am and was surprised that I, I had heard nothing about it. Like, there must have been little to no ad campaign because I keep my eyes on these things. And that blows my mind, kind of, based only on the star power of the people in this movie.

Yeah, it’s kind of crazy because this filmmaker had done another movie before, A Girl Walks Home Alone At Night or something like that, which I’ve heard, I haven’t seen, but I’ve heard really good things about. Me too. So maybe based on the success of that, I don’t know, maybe she’s just friends with these people.

But. There’s tons of big names in it, but I had never heard of it, apparently until May, when I read that article, and, uh, I don’t know, I, uh, I guess, I’m sorry? Both laugh 

Todd: Well, no need to apologize. 

Craig: I don’t know what you 

Todd: think of it yet. You know, when you don’t know, it’s okay. You’ve skewered me before over shit I didn’t know was gonna be bad, but, uh, I agree with you here.

I think that, um, I would have looked at this, especially that article, Bloody Disgusting, and it talks about cannibal movies. And this one here, I mean, I can read from that, too. I mean, when you read the description that they have here, Follows a group of undesirables sent to fend for themselves in a lawless desert.

Arlen has just been dropped off a little more than a bottle of water before she’s captured by a group of cannibals who cut off her arm and leg to add to their gruesome pantry. She escapes before they can harvest more of her flesh and is nursed back to health. By a roaming hermit, played by Jim Carrey.

Hell bent on revenge, Arlen meets a muscle bound cannibal named Miami Man, Jason Momoa. Who coerces her into saving his daughter from a powerful cult like leader known as The Dream, who is Keanu Reeves. Uh, they call it a cutthroat nightmare. Even more upsetting, there may be worse monsters than flesh eaters populating this dystopian world.

It sure makes it sound like a horror movie. It does! By God, watching it. Watching it, I was like… That, like… 

Craig: Shit. That, now, okay, so now… I don’t rem… I still don’t remember it, but I can see why that sounds great! It sounds like a fantastic movie.

Todd: I want to see that movie. Oh my god! I still want to see that movie.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Well, 

Craig: it makes it That sounds really great, but like, you literally just covered the entire plot. So that we don’t have to. In 30 seconds. No, but you, but you covered it in 30 seconds, because that’s how long it takes to explain the plot, because so little happens. Like, this is a long movie, 

Todd: it’s…

Oh god, it’s about two hours long. Yeah. Ugh, and it feels like four. And it 

Craig: is slow, like, slow paced. Ugh. Not a whole lot happens, and there’s hardly… 

Todd: There’s hardly any dialogue, there’s hardly any action, there’s hardly anything beyond a bunch of people staring either at each other or off into space for long periods of time.

Yeah, literally, 

Craig: literally staring off into space. 

Todd: That actually happens at one point, yeah. Oh my god. Yeah, 

Craig: it’s a lot of walking into town. And out of town, and into town, and out of town. Getting captured and taken out of town, and then getting rescued and brought back into town. Like, watching it, like, I just was kind of blown away by some things.

I don’t even remember how it started. Okay, so the main girl… Arlen, played by Suki Waterhouse, who, I hear that name all over the place, but I have not really seen her in anything else, I don’t think. I thought she was fine in this, she’s pretty. Her performance didn’t blow me away, but, whatever, she was fine.

Um, she is tattooed with a number. Behind her ear and then released out of from Bad Batch prison, 

Todd: or well, I mean, this is a big problem It wouldn’t necessarily be a problem But it was annoying me the more and more the movie went on just because I had so much time to think about other things Like what is this?

Is this? today? Is it in the dystopian future? Is the whole world like this? Is this just a desert outside of Texas that we could possibly stumble upon if we were there? I don’t know. There’s just a prison, it looks like a prison, and a big chain link fence and some faceless guards who we never see have tattooed…

BB 006 or something behind her ear, toss her out there and close the gate and say good luck. There’s this big sign that she walks by as she walks out into the desert without anything, just her clothes and a bottle of water and it says outside of here is This is the boundary of Texas. Outside of here is outside of the United States of America.

American laws do not pertain. Good luck. And that’s it. I half expected there to be some M. Night Shyamalan, The Village style twist at the end. You know, I didn’t know. I thought a lot about it, and I still couldn’t figure out. I thought the movie would piecemeal out a little bit more. Information about all of this, and I think it thinks it did?

It does a little bit. Keanu Reeves character has a very slow and boring dialogue with her at some point, where it sounds like he’s hinting at stuff, but I don’t know. I still don’t know. I don’t know. What is it? What is the bad batch? I thought they might be mutants 

or 

Craig: something, but they’re not. They’re just they’re undesirables.

They’re criminals. We find out later that Jason Momoa is really not even a criminal He’s just an illegal immigrant. So was that 

Todd: supposed to be a shocking thing for us to I suppose like a political statement I think it was 

Craig: supposed to build sympathy for him. Yeah, I Think it was supposed to make him more sympathetic which Uh, this movie is so weird because he starts out like the bad guy, like he is the bad guy.

Kind of. But then, and I think that’s what the movie, the movie is trying to be like an exploration of the good guys and the bad guys and like there’s really no such thing. I don’t remember, I feel like I read it somewhere, but it follows this notion of the perspective of who the good guy is and who the bad guy is all depends on who you’re standing next to.

Oh, right. And I feel like that’s What this movie is all about, like, they make it seem like Jason Momoa is the bad guy, and I mean, he does capture, kill, and eat people. Right? No question of that. And so I guess, like, that’s morally questionable, but by the end, you’re kinda, I feel like you’re kinda supposed to be like, well, you know.

You gotta eat. Right. 

Todd: I 

Craig: mean, I mean, you gotta eat. Other than that, he seems pretty cool. But anyway, okay, so they, so what I think that it is, is it’s just, they take, you know, prisoners, people who have broken the law, drug addicts, illegal immigrants, whatever, and they just, I don’t know if they have to spend some time in prison, or if that’s just like a processing center, and then they are just It’s dropped into this wasteland where it’s just Mad Max, you know, no rules, no law, no law enforcement, nothing.

Seems like a bad idea. I mean, because these people… Well, I mean, it’s, it’s basically the idea behind Australia, right? But 

Todd: Australia’s an island, you know? Like, these people could actually, like, gather up resources. Cause they seem to have no problem gathering up resources. Oh! That was weird. Yeah, as the movie went on, I found it less and less credible that this is actually a horrible, dystopian wasteland where everybody’s fending for themselves and they have nothing but cannibalism to turn to because they have electricity, running water…

Motorcycles. Motorcycles and cars that there’s no trouble gassing up, apparently. Well, they act like… 

Craig: They act like gas is scarce. Like, they act like things are scarce, but you would never know that. Other than the fact that they insinuate that things are scarce, it doesn’t appear that anything is 

Todd: scarce at all.

Not when, not when Jason Momoa, you know, drives up on a motorcycle to check on a, on an empty thing, and gets off of it, doesn’t even turn it off before he starts poking around. I was like, shouldn’t you turn that off? Isn’t gas supposed to be scarce? Guess not. 

Craig: All, yeah, and all of this makes very little sense, but it just, in the, in the final act, when we get inside Keanu Reeves house, it just becomes ludicrous.

It becomes ridiculous. 

Todd: Absolutely, insanely 

Craig: ridiculous. Right. But that’s later. First, she’s alone in the desert, and she gets chased by people in golf carts, and they, now mind you, this is all in the first five minutes. She gets grabbed by people in golf carts. She wakes up, chained to the ground, like, the dirty ground, in the desert.

In what ends up looking like an airplane graveyard, but it’s where this tribe of people live. This. Um, older, middle aged woman comes and injects her with something and then chops off one of her arms. No, 

Todd: not chops. Saws off. Hack saws. Yeah. Pretty brutal. Hack 

Craig: saws off one of her arms and one of her legs.

And I, I of course had forgotten reading that article and I’m glad because this was shocking to me. I was like, wait. What? Like, this is the main character, and we are maiming her from the get go? Like, if they had just cut off one arm, or even both arms, I’m like, You know, you can get a round on your legs, but she didn’t have a leg!

I’m like, what is going to happen? Yeah. Ugh, it was crazy. And, and the lady sears the wounds with a frying pan to keep, Presumably to keep her alive, so they can keep chopping parts off and eating. And we see that they have a bunch of prisoners. With limbs cut off. Uh, just, you know, chained up around. And so, okay, so this is a bad place.

It’s a cannibal place. And we see that Jason Momoa is there. He is Miami man. And it appears that he’s I don’t even know… He’s in charge, I guess? Kind of? 

Todd: I mean, I don’t know if that’s ever really clear. Everyone’s got sort of places to live, I suppose, and he has a really nice w I mean, nice for what it is, what it’s inside of like an airplane.

Peace or something, but he has a family and we’re introduced to him while he’s painting a portrait of his daughter this intricate Gorgeous. Oh, it’s beautiful. Beautiful portrait of his daughter Who must be what nine years old something like that? Maybe eight nine years old and she doesn’t talk and I don’t think she talks through the whole movie 

Craig: Yes, she does.

She talks at the end. Oh, you’re right. She has the very last line. Oh, you’re right. Maybe it’s not the last line. But she doesn’t talk through the whole movie. They save it until the very last scene. And then she just says the stupidest shit. Oh, like it was such a, it was such a 

Todd: weird choice. It’s all so pretentious.

I think this movie is so pretentious. It is trying so hard. 

Craig: I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s pretentious or if this person… Omnipur, or whatever her name is, I think she has a vision. I think she has an artistic vision. For sure. And I think that the movie look, like, cinematically, it looks really good. Yes.

It’s just, the pacing is, it may just be too much for me. It forces us 

Todd: to wallow in that for a while. Well, 

Craig: and I’ve seen, I’ve read interviews of her, and she wanted that. She wanted, she wanted us to, to be stuck, uh, in these. Painful and uncomfortable, uh, scenarios. She, she said that she, uh, didn’t want to offer any kind of escape.

Uh, for the viewer. I don’t know exactly what she means by that. Painful 

Todd: and uncomfortable on my ass as it has to remain sitting on a sofa. And it gets scratchy and sometimes a little sweaty. I mean, I was not emotionally in pain or trauma during any of this movie. I’ve sat through movies of intensity. You know, and this was not a movie of intensity.

The first ten minutes or so that what we just, what you just finished describing were intriguing and interesting. And her escape from this. 

Craig: It looks great, like, it’s all outdoors. Almost all of this, next to nothing of this was shot on Sets. Oh yeah. These are all really outside. These are, you know, outdoor Yeah.

Location shots. And it’s, you know, in the desert and it’s hot and it looks really good. But like this really brutal scene of her getting her, her limbs chopped off is underscored with. Ace of bass. Yeah. All that she wants. 

Todd: There’s a fair amount of, yeah, like, 80s and 90s pop music underscoring this. The 

Craig: soundtrack is good, but, like, I really enjoyed the soundtrack, and I actually kind of enjoyed how it kind of discombobulates you.

Yeah. She intentionally juxtaposes music that makes no sense in this context. Later, Jason Momoa puts on earphones and listens to Culture Club. Mm hmm. While he butchers somebody. Like, uh, it’s funny. Then, like, I guess to kinda introduce us to this tribe, it’s basically Muscle Beach. This group is, like, a bunch of super, super buff guys and some women in, like, speedos just working out in the desert.

They’re all buff. That’s all they do. And Jason Momoa is their leader, I guess, and he has a family. He has… I don’t know if he, she’s a wife, a partner, he has a, a partner and a, a daughter. And while we’re on the subject of Jason Momoa, Jason Momoa is one of the most beautiful people I’ve ever seen in my life.

I was telling Alan, I was telling Alan last night, I’m like, it’s not an objectification thing. It’s like looking at art. Like, he’s just so, he’s such a stunning specimen of the human. I could just stare at him, and he doesn’t wear a shirt in this movie at all, if I recall. Thank you. That was worth the price of admission for me.

Um, but, we also find that our little Arlen is pretty resourceful, because in the night… She covers herself in her own waist, and then the next morning, like, the cook woman comes, and obviously, that’s problematic for a couple of reasons. First of all, it’s gross. Secondly, it could infect her wounds. So, this lady unchains her to, to clean her up, and Arlen beats her to death with rebar.

Yeah. Then escapes by scooting herself. through the camp and through the desert on her back on a skateboard pushing herself with her one leg. Oh my god, nobody, nobody noticed. 

Todd: Like she’s even ducking around a corner, acquiring the skateboard is kind of a thing, whatever. And then the next shot is just her pushing herself on one leg across the desert.

Like you can see for miles, this is a problem I had throughout the whole movie with everything that happens. It is flat desert land, you can see, we’re not up in the mountains, you can see for miles in any direction, and she can just scoot away from this camp that people are presumably keeping watch over, going in and out of, now she’s out in the middle of nowhere, and happens to run into the guy that everyone happens to run into over and over and over again.

The only single guy out wandering in the wilderness, uh, Jim Carrey’s character, who is a mute, I’d like a hermit, more or less, scavenger. 

Craig: Yeah, see, that was another thing that blew my mind, like, Jim Carrey… At one point in time, was among, if not the highest paid actor in Hollywood. Yeah, he took a retreat.

He’s also very eccentric. Yeah. So, I could see him, you know, taking jobs that don’t pay very much just because he wants to. I, I, I totally can see that. I have no idea how much he got paid for this. But it’s, it’s crazy, you know, this huge, huge superstar, you get him in your movie, you make him virtually unrecognizable, and don’t have him say a single word.

Just don’t 

Todd: have him do anything that he has usually paid millions of dollars to do. And on top of it, I watched the credits, you know, and I was looking at it like, oh, Keanu Reeves, oh, Jim Carrey, I’m gonna have to look out for him. Totally forgot. It was about three quarters of the way through the movie when there was a scene between him and Jason Momoa’s character.

Momoa, yeah. And suddenly, I don’t know, just maybe the light hit his face the right way, and I was like Holy shit, that’s Jim Carrey. 

Craig: Right? I didn’t, it took me a while too. It was about halfway through before I figured it out. Yeah, that was kind of fun. Cause he’s filthy, and in the first part, he just scoops her up out of the desert, puts her in his shopping cart, and pushes her to this other community, um, which is, what’s the name of the town?

Comfort. Comfort. It’s this like, outpost called… Comfort and he just wheels her there and drops her off there. I don’t even think we see his face in that scene. I think he’s so shrouded in like his, yeah, his clothes or whatever, but he just drops her off and the people of comfort like gather around her and then it goes to black and says five months, five months later, she’s healed.

And somebody has given or made her a prosthetic leg. And she lives in this community that seems to be perfectly self sufficient. Not luxurious. 

Todd: No, it looks like, you know, people need to clean the streets up a little bit. But there’s a cool, silly bi play with The noodle lady who has a noodle cart and there seems to be some sort of currency because people are pulling papers out There’s merchants.

Yeah merchants and people are kind of allowed to do whatever they want. Nobody’s really bothering anybody else Even the crazy man is walking down the street going on and on about Well, you gotta remember the one thing. There’s one thing, if you just remember this one thing. THIS IS THE ONE THING! THE 

Craig: ONE THING YOU MUST NEVER FORGET!

GIVE ME SOME F ING NOODLES! One dollar! Demon! One dollar! She’s a goddamn demon! You no pay, no noodle! No noodle for you, no pay! Thank 

Todd: you very much. Huh? 

Craig: Hey, what’s the thing? How should I know? Find out for yourself. You find out for yourself. No one is going to tell you. You have to figure it out for yourself.

You have to 

Todd: figure it out. And then, kind of wanders off. Right, 

Craig: well, and, and that, like, that’ll surely come back, right? That’s what 

Todd: I thought. That’s what I thought. 

Craig: There’s, there’s going to be something to that. That’s mysterious, that’ll come, no. This is partly 

Todd: why I think it’s just so pretentious. There are so many of these little moments.

That I think, Oh, they’re trying to say something. Or this is the beginning of a riddle that’s going to be answered later. Or this is something profound that, you know, this is the beginning of something profound that is going to reach its conclusion as the plot develops. Like, no. I was so frustrated by things 

Craig: like that.

Well, and that crazy guy, that crazy guy is Giovanni Ribisi. Yeah. And, like, and again, that’s, this is all he does. He has these lines here, but later, I don’t, I don’t know, maybe he talks a little bit more, but he basically just walks around, he just walks around looking crazy. Kind of in the background. 

Todd: That’s it!

Yeah, that’s it. 

Craig: And he’s filthy too, you would barely know it was him. 

Todd: Was this before or after the rave? I can’t remember. Oh, no, no, no, no. This is before the rave. So, she gets a pistol. Walks out into the desert just walks 

Craig: out like we have caught up with her on the exact day Right that she decides to get a gun And walk out to seek her 

Todd: revenge?

This community has, uh, like, it’s like three, um, shipping containers tall. Wall. I guess all around it. We only see the gate, but that’s what we see. Some guy standing guard on the top of that wall. A kind of like, uh, opening in the middle that I can’t remember if there’s a gate or not. And then there’s this sort of unguarded hole in it.

That people can just literally walk in and out of and she just walks right out of it Out into the empty desert with a pistol. Uh, doesn’t have a backpack I think she has a jug of water. Does a jug of water kind of magically and appear in her hand later? I’m not sure but it’s just like what and literally we just see nothingness It is just flat nothingness and she’s just gonna walk out into the nothingness to seek her revenge I don’t know how she thinks she’s gonna find this community again, or what she’s planning to do.

No, I 

Craig: have no idea. But she, fortunately, stumbles upon, in this vast desert, Jim Carrey, this dump where, uh, Momoa’s wife and daughter are scavenging. 

Todd: There’s a golf cart. It was similar to the golf cart she was picked up in, probably the same one. Uh, she 

Craig: notices it. Right. And coincidentally, Five seconds before she arrives, the mom, Maria, falls and breaks her leg.

Yeah! 

Todd: And… So 

Craig: convenient. So, so Arlen… comes upon them, and they have a philosophical conversation where the mom is like, we’re the same, and she’s like, no we’re not. And the mom’s like, yes we are, we’re the bad batch, we’re just trying to survive. And she’s 

Todd: like, but you eat people. 

Craig: Yeah, right, but you eat people, so that makes you worse than me.

And then, right in front of the daughter who is standing seven feet away, shoots the mom. In the head. Right. 

Todd: And the daughter does not react the way I would think the daughter should react. 

Craig: I don’t know, I found it hard 

Todd: me either, like I know I was supposed to find this heartbreaking, or I was supposed to find something deep and almost depressing about this whole thing, about how the daugh Like what, the daughter has just seen so much violence in her life that even when her mother is shot in front of her, like, she’s so hardened to it.

She just kinda like, walks up, sits down next to her, pushes her shoulder a few times, trying to wake her up. No tears, no nothing, uh, and then this woman just, Arlen just takes her away. Back to the 

Craig: place. Back to the place. And like, I have no idea what anybody’s motivations are here. Like, if she just wanted revenge, like if, I guess she can’t kill the little girl cause kids are innocent or something, so now she’s gonna be her mother?

Like, I don’t know. So, uh, so she takes her back and like they have like cute little mother daughter moments where the little girl like puts makeup on her. To get ready for this rave. Can 

Todd: we say one thing here? How did she even know that this woman, She just saw the golf cart. Like, she didn’t see this woman before.

This woman isn’t the one who saw it off her arms or her legs or her arm. 

Craig: No, I think it was just because she is one of those people. They call them the bridge people. Right. Um, just because she’s one of those people. You know, she, she gets it or whatever. And I don’t, I guess that’s good enough. Like, well, I got one.

So go back home. I 

Todd: got their kid, you know, 

Craig: I guess. Right. I guess. So she, the kid, they have a cute little, like, I don’t like, it’s so weird. Mother, daughter, sister bonding thing where like the little, and like the little girl doesn’t seem particularly upset and you don’t know. If Arlen even said anything to the kid, the way that it’s shot, it seems like Arlen just turned around and started walking away, and the kid just followed her, because what else is she gonna do?

Right. So the kid follows her, they, you know, have this little makeup moment. Arlen buys her a live rabbit. Mm hmm. From a rabbit vendor, who I assume is selling those rabbits for food. But they’re perfectly tame. Yeah. And, and this little girl carries it around. During this rave. This is so weird. Okay. So like it’s obvious that things are amping up and like it seems kind of like Ren fair kind of and the energy energy’s getting high and then there’s like a dj and a whole Like, movable DJ booth, it’s like, it looks like a giant party bus.

Yeah. Yeah. It looks like a giant boom box 

Todd: on wheels. He’s got a disco ball in there and everything. 

Craig: It’s insane. And a DJ like with in a window and 

Todd: LED lights around the whole thing, chasing around and changing color. And 

Craig: it looks like Coachella. Yeah. It looks like a bunch of hipsters. And I think that I read that.

These 

Todd: extras were just from Coachella. They didn’t even 

Craig: costume them. Well, they were from that area, and they were like, you know, just wear 

Todd: whatever you want. Just wear every day. Come on out. Yeah. 

Craig: And they didn’t put them in makeup or costumes. 

Todd: Bring along your LED glasses while you’re at it, because… 

Craig: And your battery powered strings of lights, and your glow sticks, and like, it looks like Coachella.

And a rave, and then… You know what, I think 

Todd: at least a couple of those giant containers, shipping containers that they’re using for the walls around there must have coincidentally been filled with AA batteries. They must 

Craig: have. Yeah. I have no idea. It makes no logical sense. Like seriously, some of the places in the market have signs outside that say, yes, we have air conditioning.

What? Yeah. Like, where is the power plant that is 

Todd: running all of this? All of the unnecessary lights and things as well in this place. It’s, it’s pretty, it’s pretty ridiculous. They 

Craig: have indoor plumbing, which Keanu Reeves will make a huge deal out of later. What? They need a whole infrastructure. This makes no sense.

Okay, alright, so they have this big rave, and everybody is trippin balls, including Arlen, which leaves the little girl whose name is Honey to her own devices, and she drops her rabbit, and it gets away, and, oh, but not before Keanu Reeves comes out, and I don’t even remember, I have no memory of what he said.

What is, what is he saying? I just said he 

Todd: addresses crowd. It’s generic shit. It’s like, exactly what I expected him to say. I’m just paraphrasing, but it’d be like, You’re all here because we are the Bad Batch. We’re the undesirables of society. I’m one of you. But here we are, together as one, and we’re not that bad, are we?

All of us here. 

Craig: We weren’t good enough. Smart enough. Young enough. Healthy enough. Wealthy enough. Sane enough. Freaks.

Parasites. This

here is the bad batch. 

Todd: Goodbye! Enjoy your LSD. Trip balls. 

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And there’s like, signage all around. says stuff like you can’t enter the dream unless the dream enters you. Ew. And later, like when he comes out, there’s one woman with him and she’s pregnant as it turns out, he has a whole harem of pregnant women who wear white t shirts that say the dream is 

Todd: inside me.

They’re nice t shirts too, I mean they’ve got like screen printing facilities. 

Craig: They have a copy machine in the outdoor markets! They have a Xerox machine! You’re right.

For public use, Xerox machine. In the middle of the desert, outdoors. Right. Okay, so, um, After… So, he’s obviously, like, their guru. Like, almost god like. But, it turns out, you know, he’s the one keeping them, I guess, providing them everything that they have. He’s the one that’s doing that. Out of the kindness of his heart.

How? We 

Todd: don’t know yet. We don’t know. I don’t know how he got all that fancy European furniture out there in the desert, all these marble columns and shit. 

Craig: Well, that’s later. We don’t know that yet. We just know that he has this compound, which, the Okay, so the lost rabbit hops right up to Keanu Reeves feet, and honey is right on its tail.

So, he’s like, is this your rabbit? By the way Keanu Reeves, I think, is doing an affect here intentionally. Yeah. It kind of just seems like bad acting. Yeah, I agree with you. I think it’s intent, I really do think it’s intentional, but it just kind of comes across as bad. And also… Like, Keanu Reeves is a good looking man, and he looks terrible in this movie.

Yeah, he really does. Like, I have a feeling either he intentionally put on weight or he just stopped not, or like, I just have this, I have this idea that famous actors, like, that’s part of their job, like being beautiful is part of their job, so, you know, they have to… Workout and stuff like that. Maybe he just stopped doing that because he’s just a little soft around the middle It was 

Todd: between john wick filmings, you know, it’s probably 

Craig: Anyway, it doesn’t matter all the the point that i’m trying to make is he’s very smarmy looking Yeah, um, and he’s got like a porn stash.

It’s weird and a bad haircut 

Todd: You want to hate him you look at him and he just looks like a 

Craig: slime ball Exactly, and he what does he I don’t even remember what he says to her But he gives her back the rabbit and then he takes her in To his compound and that’s the last time we see them for ever What’s her name while she’s tripping balls realizes that she’s lost this kid So she starts looking for her But then she gets distracted and she’s talking to herself in her head and she’s like I don’t like this place I want to leave this place and she walks out again alone into the desert And literally stares off into space for five minutes.

Oh man, this is so slow. And it’s all like trip, trippy, fast motion photography of the stars moving across the horizon. While she’s slow motion 

Todd: in front of it. It’s the most generic somebody tripping on acid stuff you could possibly imagine. I mean. It’s in 10 other movies with way lower budgets than 

Craig: this.

And that’s, it’s not to say it looks bad. No, it’s just, no, 

Todd: not. It’s typical. It’s typical. There’s nothing, I mean, just like Keanu Reeves’s character. I mean, the rave felt to me like the rave from the second Matrix movie. The Matrix, yeah. Especially with Keanu Reeves there, that didn’t help, you know, and then him coming out and having his big speech, like, I’ve seen ten other movies like this where the guy who’s in charge of the misfits out in the middle of nowhere that, you know, is kind of like holding them together, comes out, gives them a rousing speech that says nothing, that, like, what, does he do this every night just to remind them?

You know, I don’t know, was tonight a particularly special night, I don’t think so, it’s just The movie’s gotta have a scene like that. And then he has to be kind of mysterious, but clearly, I guess there’s more to it. He’s got to be kind of evil. But anyway, but what we didn’t mention was that Jason Momoa, uh, but while all this was going on, goes out looking for…

His daughter and wife because they haven’t come back yet. Right. And he gets out on his motorcycle and happens upon the golf cart and finds the wife dead there. Jim Carrey’s character, who saw the whole thing happen previously, is there again and he tries to get him to talk but he doesn’t talk. He asks if he’s seen the girl.

He’s got a notebook that he’s done sketches in, so he’s got sketches of his daughter and all kinds of stuff in there. 

Craig: I like that he’s an artist. I think that’s cool. That was a cool bit. And he’s a good artist, um, you know, we’ve already seen that, you know, he can paint beautifully, but, um, he also sketches, and Jim Carrey, he barters for information.

He wants the guy to sketch him. Yeah. I thought that was cool. And so he does. And this is the moment, this is the moment where, He gets just the tiniest bit Jim Carrey. You know what I mean? Like, the way that he poses, like he kinda sticks his belly out and sticks his chin up in the air. And I’m like, there’s Jim Carrey.

There he is. It’s true. But it’s just for a second, and it’s really not out of character. 

Todd: No, this guy’s a little quirky dude anyway, yeah, it’s just kinda… Yeah, 

Craig: and and so Momoa sketches him and gives him this nice sketch and and he tells him, uh, look for He writes, cause he doesn’t speak, he writes, look for comfort.

So he knows that that’s where she supposedly is, but before he even gets there… Clandestinely, he runs into Arlen while she’s trippin in the 

Todd: desert. So Arlen, tripping, can wander out the gates of Comfort and run into Jason Momoa, somehow, out in the desert. Yet, I guess she’s far enough away from Comfort… Or from any view of that three story tall wall around Comfort that Jason Momoa needs her help to find Comfort.

Well, 

Craig: he said that he, like, he can’t go in there. I have a feeling that they know who he is because I do think that he is the leader of the other camp. So I don’t think that he can go in. Right. I think that they would shoot him at the gate. So he needs… to send her in to fetch the girl and he says you have to if you don’t I’ll kill you now how he’s gonna get his hands on her if 

Todd: she just she just goes in there that’s kind of hard to understand but 

Craig: that’s the deal I mean he has her leg while he’s making this deal so there’s not a whole lot she can do but I 

Todd: mean how is oh god I don’t know how they’re so far away because they have to camp out on the way there and stuff like she walked Out and wandered and tripped in the desert.

And he found her in the middle of the night. I, I, I just don’t know why this journey back was taking so 

Craig: long. No, she shouldn’t have been more than a couple of hundred yards away from Where, yeah. No, I don’t know. And, and there’s, there’s a scene where they are approached He’s still on his motorcycle, she’s, you know, riding behind him.

But they’re approached by Oh, maybe they don’t have the motorcycle at this point, I don’t remember. They don’t, for whatever reason. I never knew what happened to his first motorcycle. Like, he just had it, and then he didn’t anymore. He just left it. And then later, they stumble upon it again. I guess there’s just, you know, I guess people just leave their motorcycles in the desert.

You find one, you use it. But they’re walking, but they get approached by this big guy on a motorcycle. And he’s got this small tank of, like, a small gas can. And Momoa, I’ll trade you this for that leg. And it looks like, like, Momoa hardly ever talks because none of them do, like, literally, I was, the first 35 minutes, there is no dialogue.

There is some talking in the background, like background talking, but no dialogue on screen at all for the first 35 minutes. And then after that, I would say, in total, Jason Momoa maybe has like, Five to seven lines in the whole movie. Same for her. They just don’t talk. Nobody talks! It’s so strange. 

Todd: When they should be talking, they don’t talk, yeah.

They’re just like, they stare at each other and just not answer each other’s questions for a while. Right, this bad 

Craig: guy says… Trade ya this for the leg, and Momoa doesn’t say anything, he just kinda looks, and the bad guy’s like, I’m being nice, um, I could just kill ya and take em both, and he pulls, like he has a big chain that he starts wrapping around his hand or something.

And so Momoa still doesn’t say anything, but like, makes the trade, and she’s screaming, and uh, Momoa’s walking away, but then he turns around and throws a hatchet into the guy’s… Wordlessly, like, Jason Momoa did not speak a word during that whole scene. I mean, it’s a stylistic thing, and I think that it’s a bold choice, and, and potentially an interesting choice, 

Todd: but…

I thought it was pretentious. It’s, 

Craig: it’s one, one of my favorite… Musicals, there’s a line where they’re talking, uh, the, a guy in the story has never heard about the concept of musicals. And so somebody’s trying to explain it and he’s like, you know, they sing everything and sometimes you just wonder, Why aren’t they talking?

Like, like, why? That’s what I was wondering through this whole movie, like, Why aren’t you talking? Like, things could be facilitate, facilitated 

Todd: so much easier. And faster as well. Cause this was, uh, But anyway. Oh man. So I 

Craig: guess this is supposed to show us that he’s not a, Bad guy, but really it doesn’t because he needs her.

Like, she’s a commodity. He’s not just protecting her out of the goodness of his heart. Of course. Ugh, whatever. All of this is drawn out over the course of like an hour and a half, but Ugh, yes. It literally feels like nothing happens. So they go back to Comfort, she makes photocopies. Literally, of the sketch of the girl and starts handing them out to people for no purpose because then she just happens to be sitting somewhere and Keanu and his harem walk by and she’s with the harem.

So… Uh, Arlen goes and knocks on his door, and they 

Todd: let her in. Why didn’t she just, right then and there, go up and take the kid, or ask the, the lady for, or explain the situation, or whatever? Like, my god. I just watched her watch the kid go by and was like, Uh, uh, uh, there she go, go, follow her? What, what are you doing?

Right. Are you biding your time? What, what, what? I don’t understand. I don’t 

Craig: know. I guess this guy is, is powerful. But like, that really hasn’t been as… It hasn’t been established that he’s bad. Like, you get a… I mean, he’s smarmy and you get a bad vibe off of him. But it hasn’t been established that he’s a bad person.

If anything, you would be led to believe that he’s philanthropic. Yes. He’s taking care of this girl. Yes. Because then, we get to see… The way that she’s been living, and she has been living in Abject luxury and 

Todd: comfort. Gaudy comfort and luxury. Like, she’s in, the next shot of her is in a bubble bath. In this, like, uh, big, uh, European style, uh, tub.

With black marble all around it, and, uh. Faucet shaped like a swan and their house has just big, heavy, gaudy European furniture all inside of it and lamps and things. Uh huh. Then he’s got an indoor pool. Uh huh. That’s like an in ground thing with mar looks like the Roman baths. Yeah, that’s exactly what I was gonna say, like a Turkish bath or something.

And the girls are just like walking around in and out of the pool, just wandering. He’s in the 

Craig: pool, he, he gets out and somebody towels him off and puts a big terrycloth, white terrycloth robe on him. It is insane. The little girl, you know, she takes a bubble bath and then we see her eating dinner, which is like spaghetti and meatballs, in this wasteland hellscape.

What? 

Todd: I don’t understand! Where did all this stuff come from? 

Craig: And she’s sitting in this giant room, um, surrounded by toys. So this girl is living her best life, but Arlen feels the need to rescue her. So Arlen comes over and Keanu Reeves talks to her. And first of all, he comes out and just the way that he comes out and they put the terry cloth robe on him, like it so fits the stereotype of like the drug kingpin, which it turns out that he is because you see tons of weed and pills that they are like, I don’t even know what they’re doing, counting them, putting them in containers.

I don’t know what they’re doing. Where do these things come from? Like, okay, fine, I could potentially buy that they could grow weed. I could, but where are they getting these pharmaceuticals? Like, haha! 

Todd: They’ve got an LSD lab somewhere, like, I’m just. I just 

Craig: don’t get it. They’re, see, that’s the thing, like, they’ve got to be connected to society in some way.

Yes, this is why I thought There’s no other explanation. 

Todd: This is why I thought there would be some big reveal at the end, or there’d be at least, maybe it wouldn’t be as big as a reveal, but at least like, oh, okay, now we get what’s going on. Or maybe the government is actually secretly, like, using him to make, keep order in the place and Right.

Keep the prisoners satisfied. Like, we can speculate all we want. Because the movie doesn’t even hint at it. But we’ll never know. Look, I almost felt like, if I were to confront the director of this movie, that I bet she would tell me, Oh, well this is all supposed to be a fairy tale. The desert is the woods, and people go in and out of the desert, like they go in and out of the woods, and this is the king in the high castle, and it doesn’t need to make sense, you know, why, that we’re just, it’s all metaphor, and it’s all, You know, linked to storytelling and, you know, but it just, it’s not that deep.

Right. And 

Craig: unlike, unlike a fairy tale, it’s totally morally ambiguous because nobody, nobody in this guy’s compound appears to be there against their will. Now, if you want to get into like power constructs and stuff, obviously these women are probably. Trading something for this luxury that they live.

They’re trading their autonomy and, and, and their freedom and stuff. However, they seem to be very comfortable and not in any big hurry to like, rebel or anything. Nor does 

Todd: anyone outside of this palace seem to… Be jealous. They’re not climbing the wall. That’s what 

Craig: I was gonna say, like, it doesn’t seem entirely ethical that there’s, you know, this kingpin and his minions who live in complete luxury, whereas the people out there are, they’re not, I don’t know, they seem pretty comfortable, that’s the thing, like, everybody seems to be cool with the 

Todd: arrangements.

Maybe it’s sort of a, meant to be a commentary on sort of modern class dynamics, where, you know, it’s not like everybody is out peasants working the field right now, We just don’t know how bad we have it because we don’t have a glimpse to see just how good the rich who claim that they’re providing for us and indeed are providing for us to a certain extent, nevertheless are taking a gross amount of it for themselves.

Um, and that’s just hidden behind the walls. Maybe it could be interpreted that way. I 

Craig: suppose it could be, but it also doesn’t seem like there’s a, well, it doesn’t make 

Todd: a difference to the story. That’s the point. It doesn’t make 

Craig: a difference to the story and it just doesn’t seem like. Ugh, it doesn’t seem pointed, like, if there’s gonna be a message, like, just slap me in the face with it.

Like, I don’t know, I would criticize it 

Todd: if it did that, too. Just make it a clear, that’s why, it’s just a lot of loose ends, they’re just uncomfortably loose. I don’t mean that you have to absolutely explain everything. If you’re trying to build a world… And you want it to seem full and lush and lavish, of course you’re not going to be able to explain everything, nor should you have to.

And we can just all accept this is the world everybody lives in, and they all accept it, and, and so whatever. Like, if there are reasons behind this, we just know there are reasons, and that’s good enough. But there needs to seem, there needs to feel like there’s some underlying logic here. And to me, it just feels sloppy.

I don’t feel like there is any underlying logic here. If it is, it is so far removed from what we see on the screen. I don’t know, 

Craig: Todd. I worry that I worry that we’re just being too dense about it. I don’t know. I, cause it doesn’t seem this it’s maybe it’s because it’s pretentious. I’m led to believe that it’s smart and I, and I, and I, and I’m lulled into thinking, no, this is smart.

You’re just. Stupid. Which I guess is what pretension is all about. Well, 

Todd: is his name The Dream? Is that what we’re led 

Craig: to believe? Well, I think that’s what he goes by. Yeah, that’s what they refer he’s like 

Todd: a prophet. But he even says to them, to her at one point, he says, you know what the dream really is.

It’s life. He whispers that to her. Am I wrong? Was that the 

Craig: line? I don’t remember what it was, but he gives her this whole big, long, pretentious speech about shit. Literally about shit. Literally. Some misbehaving human’s been making hamburgers out of my sons and daughters. But we are not cows. We don’t stand in our shit.

The reason we don’t… is because I won’t let that happen. I got each and every toilet and comfort taking that shit from all your little asses… and sending it down the pipes till it reaches a place where… no one thinks about it… and no one smells it. Ain’t that nice of me. I feel like that encapsulates the tone of this movie so well.

Yeah. Like it’s, it’s so, like, here, I’m gonna make a metaphor about indoor plumbing and it’s gonna enlighten you. Like, oh my god. Sadly, 

Todd: it’s a poor choice, because as soon as he said that, I thought, my god, how in the world did he get indoor plumbing to this place? How did they drop the lines? Where did they do the pipes?

And then he Exactly. Where does it go? Who processes it where it goes? He just says It just goes somewhere. Who 

Craig: maintains it? 

Todd: Yeah, like all of this requires maintenance, right? I mean, 

Craig: yeah Regular daily maintenance. Uh huh. Oh, geez So he talks to her about Going through the sewer and not you don’t have to smell it and walk in it cuz you’re a human being and little like uh And then yeah, he’s talking about the dream and he asked her what she wants And she’s a sailboat at sea with no wind.

I’m like, what? Um. Oh, you’re aimless. And he’s like, what do you, what, if you could have anything, what would you want? And she says she wishes she had a time machine so that she could go back and change things. And he’s like, no, that’s not what you really want. And she says, okay, well then I really wish that I could be the solution for something.

I don’t remember how it gets there, but then she finally says that she wants what. They have and she points to the harem and so he turns to one of the harem and says Okay, well, let’s make her up a room. So they do they give her this Opulent, enormous 

Todd: bedroom. I was like, how many rooms do they have in this place?

It sure didn’t look this big from the outside. I 

Craig: know. It was huge. And she’s in there, I, I, I don’t know, like, what is supposed to be happening. Like, is she supposed to be preparing for him to come put the dream inside her? I don’t, I don’t know. That’s what I thought. But anyway, so she takes off her leg and turns out…

I guess this whole time, she’s had a great big gun, uh, shoved up in the foot of her leg. And she uses it to take one of the pregnant women hostage, uh, barter, er, gets honey. She says, you know, I’m gonna take the go kart, and as soon as we get out the gate, and we’re far enough out, I’ll let this pregnant girl go, I promise.

And she just leaves and the dream and all of his harem just stand out on their porch and like watch her go And she does exactly what she says and let’s the pregnant girl go I in my I was thinking this pregnant girl is gonna want to go with her, right? I thought that yeah, this was gonna they were gonna present this as an opportunity to tell us that they are enslaved Yes that given the opportunity they would choose freedom.

Nope. No She just 

Todd: turns around goes back and smiles 

Craig: Arlen and honey Uh, ride a hundred yards into the desert, and immediately run into Miami Man. Oh my god. 

Todd: As soon as I saw them drive out, I was like, how did they arrange this? Like, why would she think she’s gonna find him? But no, just, he’s there. 

Craig: Yeah, he’s there, and they have a little reunion.

Honey is excited to see him, and runs up and hugs him, and they’re super excited to be reunited. And then, she And then, oh my god! She 

Todd: The little girl asks for spaghetti. And 

Craig: Wait, not before, not before Arlen, like, of course, Momoa doesn’t talk, so it just looks like he’s getting ready to go. And she’s like, wait a minute, and he turns around and she’s like, what are you doing right now?

You wanna hang out? I shit you not! I shit you not, that is a, that is a line in the movie. What are you doing right now? You wanna hang out? 

Todd: How romantic. 

Craig: Oh my god. And so then she says, she wonders if Everything happens for a reason. She does, she says it in a more convoluted way than that. She’s like, Everything that’s happened has led to everything that’s happening.

Or, pfft, whatever, who cares. It’s garbage. And so she takes his hand in, like, a romantic gesture, but the little girl comes in and, like, grabs their hands and rips them apart. And then demands spaghetti. I want spaghetti. The other man gave me spaghetti. So the dad takes her pet rabbit and cooks it. And pretty much the last thing we see is all of them sitting around.

Eating the rabbit while the little girl cries. And 

Todd: that’s the end! 

Craig: I don’t know what to make of this movie. I think that there’s something there that I don’t see. I don’t know. Like, I read the reviews. Like, from the time that it came out, apparently, the reviews have been completely divided. Like, people either think it’s brilliant or they think it’s…

Todd: The dumbest thing they’ve ever 

Craig: seen. Uh huh. And I think it’s probably somewhere in the middle. I don’t think it’s great. I don’t think it’s that terrible. I, I, I would really be interested in seeing this lady’s other movie that I’ve heard such good things about. Um, I think we’ve talked about doing it on the show before.

We have. I’d like to. I’ve just never gotten around to it. Because I’ve, I’ve just heard such good things about it. But this movie literally came and went in the blink of an eye, and it was only because of that article YEARS later that I even knew that it existed. Well… Um, but that being said… Unless you’re just interested in watching it for its stylistic choices, or unless you’re just interested, uh, in watching Jason Momoa run around shirtless for an hour and a half, which, no shame.

I get it. Um, I, I, I can’t recommend this movie. Like, I don’t know who I would recommend this to. No, I, 

Todd: I just, I don’t know who this movie is for, honestly. Because it really does start out like so many horror movies we’ve seen. And then it, it just becomes quiet and slow and contemplative. And then it seems like it has something, like, like it’s again, building this world and these intriguing characters that then you never see again.

And then you just have to sit through a lot of just staring off into space and not talking to each other. And this woman wandering in and out of the desert, in and out of the desert. People coming in and out of the desert, mostly not talking. Happening to meet up with each other in the middle of nowhere.

If this movie is truly smart, I really think that more people would be able to pick up on it. Because ultimately, it’s the filmmaker’s job to communicate something. And, I mean, it doesn’t have to be direct. But, I don’t know, almost the definition of pretension sometimes really is, I’m making it so oblique.

That I am hiding everything under so many layers here that I, I guarantee you’ll never be able to find it and Ha ha, that makes me so clever and you’re such an idiot. I put it under that camp. I’m sorry. If there is something profound here, it is hidden under so many layers of just head scratching nonsense that if it’s not obvious to you, it’s not obvious to me, it’s not obvious to half of the people who watch this at least, then um, I don’t think uh, I think the best thing you can say about it is It’s beautifully 

Craig: shot.

Yes, and I, you could, first of all, I would, I would say it’s a total stretch to even call this a horror movie. The most horrible thing that happens is in the first five minutes when she gets her limbs sawed off. Beyond that, it does not feel like horror at all. And it’s kind of a retread, like it kind of feels like a Mad Max retread.

Um, there’s like, uh, I don’t think you’ve seen it, but the Melanie Griffith Cherry 2000, which is another future dystopian, desert, wild, wasteland kind of movie. I’ve kind of seen it before. Um, I’ve even kind of seen the limbs thing before in that, the Grindhouse. Whatever that Grindhouse movie was, the 

Todd: Robert Rodriguez.

Oh yeah, the Planet Terror or whatever. Planet 

Craig: Terror? Yeah, so I’ve kind of seen that before. Um, one other good thing that I will say about it is that apparently this director is committed to using practical effects as much as possible. And one would think, I certainly thought, that all of the shots of Suki Waterhouse with her arm and leg amputated.

I would have thought that that would have had to have been achieved digitally, but it was not. It was, um, accomplished through camera angles, and that’s impressive, because it 

Todd: looks real. That’s pretty amazing, and I didn’t, I’ve never seen, I don’t know, I’ve probably seen this actress before, but I don’t keep up on things, you know, very, very much, like, not as well as you do anyway, so, uh, I hadn’t seen this actress before, I thought she was new, and I thought, oh, this is nice, they actually found an actress without an arm.

I could see, clearly, how they could fake the leg thing and you could just do it digitally or whatever, but it’s impressive that that woman has both arms intact. Uh huh. 

Craig: Because it looks very real. 

Todd: Yeah, it really does. That is hard to hide. And they did a fantastic job of 

Craig: hiding that. Yeah, and and the cinematography looks good, but but honestly like I can’t I can’t go out of my way to praise the acting Even though I don’t think I think everybody did what they were asked to do.

I just think it was so bizarre like They didn’t talk You know, 

Todd: what’s funny on imtb I I almost never do this I think you do this more than me, but I went down to the user reviews I was like, please somebody’s gotta explain this to me and the first one up on the page for me. Anyway Said, I strongly recommend everyone watch this.

Uh, he said, is it good? No. Is it coherent? Ha! Is it the worst movie ever? Quite possibly. So why would I recommend it? Is to come back and read the IMDB reviews after. It says, there’s something cathartic about seeing the immense anger of all the other poor viewers who survived this experience. Oh, that’s funny.

And it’s truly uniting. Ha ha ha ha ha! 

Craig: That’s really funny. Maybe that’s the point. Maybe. I did, that was, Not even a full interview, it was just like a snippet where he, the interviewer asked her about the divisiveness of this movie, how people either loved it or they hated it, and she said, of course, you know, a filmmaker wants people to like or connect to their work, um, she said, but My hope is always that, uh, my viewers will walk away from my movie with strong feelings and strong opinions.

So, I suppose one way or the other, it’s a win. 

Todd: What a great cop out. Well, uh, thank you, Craig. Maybe we’ll do another cannibal movie to follow this one up. Something that feels a little more horror than this one. If you enjoyed listening to this, please share it with a friend. If you have decoded this movie far beyond our ability to, please let us know exactly what we’re missing by just reaching out to us here online.

Just google Two Guys in a Chainsaw podcast, and you can find our Facebook page, our website, our Twitter feed, our Instagram channel. Just find us in one of those spots, leave us a comment, and tell us how dumb and thick we are. You can also request your own movie for us to watch. And if you want to vote on the next request, that we do.

You could become a patron by going to patreon. com slash Chainsaw Podcast. Patrons get to vote on the next request we do. They get to hear our complete unedited phone calls that lead to these episodes. They get minisodes, little mini reviews that we do, and a lot of background chatter, uh, with us. Check that out if you’re interested, patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. We love your support, whether you are a patron or not. And the best thing you can do for us is just recommend this podcast to a friend or write up a review for us on anywhere that you, uh, can write reviews about podcasts and let the rest of the world know what you think, as long as it’s positive.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We were saddened by the passing of Paul Reubens, known the world over as Pee Wee Herman. Would you believe he did a horror movie? Well, technically it’s a horror comedy, but of course Craig was chomping at the bit to discuss one of his favorites from long ago. AND to gush over the incomparable Mr. Reubens – with perhaps more of the latter than the former. Enjoy!

Buffy the Vampire Slayer (1992)

Episode 357, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Man, Craig, it feels like we’re doing tribute episode after tribute episode. We’ve just seen some people go, and probably none more famous this year than Pee Wee Herman, otherwise known as Paul Reubens. I should probably say that backwards, but, uh, honestly, Paul Reubens is Pee Wee Herman in my heart.

Yeah. And, uh, it sucks that he’s gone. I saw the news, and it was just one of those circumstances of really strange timing, in that I had just watched, about a week before, him, for the first time in a long time, uh, as himself, which, you know, when he started out doing Pee Wee, he pretty much insisted that he just was Pee wee everywhere all the time.

Out in public, on talk shows, everything like that. He hardly ever appeared as himself. Later on, he relaxed on that, and then, kind of in his later life, you know, he was playing other roles, and he was on talk shows as himself. And I saw him guest starring on a episode of Somebody Feed Phil, which is an awesome food thing on, um, Netflix.

And, I was like, My God! I think this is the first time I’ve seen this guy as anything but peewee, and he just seems like the coolest guy in the world. He was funny, he was fun, and then a week later, I found out that he died. And for this man who was so much of my childhood… Growing up to hear that he died even just a week after being reminded of how special he was to me Uh, yeah, man, that really hit me a bit.

It hit me hard So we decided to do Buffy the Vampire Slayer in honor of Paul Reubens believe it or not I never seen this movie before even though I think I’m probably the only one my age who hadn’t seen it It was in my consciousness growing up and in high school and everything like that, I just never, never managed to watch it.

I also, for the record, never saw a single episode of the TV series. Until after this movie, I figured I’d better watch at least one. So I did that to prep. I know you’re a huge fan of the TV series and you proposed… That we watched this movie in honor of Paul Reubens and, uh, here we are today. So, uh, what’s your history with this 

Craig: movie?

Oh, the movie? Who cares? Paul Reubens. You know, it’s been almost a month since he passed. And we’ve been talking, you know, we, we decided pretty much immediately that we wanted to do something for him. But we already had something else lined up, uh, for a week or so. I’ve had some time and, uh, we talked about it a little bit last week, outside of the regular show.

And I said that it was probably an algorithm thing. You know, like I’m scrolling through social media. Every time I saw something about Paul Reubens, I probably stopped and read it. Or liked it or something. And so I was getting all this, uh, Paul Reubens content. And it just hit me really hard. And honestly, like…

I’m still a little bit gobsmacked, like, it’s a little bit hard to talk about, like, he was such a cool guy, and, It’s one of those things where you don’t, I don’t know, I mean, I’ve always thought Pee Wee Herman was cool, Um, I always thought Paul Reubens was cool as an actor, as a guy, but then I’m reading all of these things about him, And all of these, uh, you know, people who knew him.

Um, even in the most casual way, like, you know, all these celebrities are coming out now and talking about how one thing that seems to have been kind of his thing was he would always find out people’s birthdays and then spam them with Uh, memes and birthday messages, like, all day on their birthdays, like, all day.

I’ve seen, you know, a couple of these celebrities, uh, post it, because it wasn’t just memes and stuff, like, he would record really personal, funny… But sincere video messages for these people too, and I, I saw a couple of them, and they weren’t things that were intended for the public, but you could just feel his, uh, sincerity, and just his humanity, and he’s also just such a funny person.

You know, I saw a couple of those stories, and then they kept coming in. Like, I don’t know how the man did anything else, you know, like, it wasn’t just people that he had close relationships with. It was people that he would have crossed paths with once or twice, but he always remembered everybody and remembered their names and their birthdays and made them feel special.

And it did make people feel special. And I think that that’s, uh, a big part of his legacy for me is Pee Wee Herman made it okay to be different and weird and he had a childlike nature and it was, you know, that, that was all a persona, but I think that that persona stemmed from something inside that man and, uh, For sure.

Todd: It had to. He came up with it during improvisation with uh, Groundlings in the 70s. He’s as old, he was born basically almost the same year my dad was born. You know, I mean, the guy lived to be 70 this year, my dad is 71. It sounds like just from a very early age, like from the age of 5, he was asking his dad to build him a stage in their house so that he could goof off and make people laugh.

He loved reruns of I Love Lucy and things like that. Right. He was in theater when he was in… High school, and then, you know, he joined this, this improv, this famous improv group, The Groundlings, and, and apparently 

Craig: this little improv group, The Groundlings, 

Todd: this tiny little thing, it’s nothing big, Phil Hartman apparently was a good friend of his and helped him develop the Pee Wee Herman character, and in fact, I think later in his life, Phil Hartman was, was critical.

He was frustrated. He was like, look, man, You’re way more talented than just this one character. Why is it that you’re only doing this? But I don’t know it just must have felt like Either his calling or just, you know, put all your eggs in this basket and it sure worked for him Uh, my first exposure to peewee herman, I think was god.

It was either the tv show or the movie I don’t remember which peewee’s playhouse. Everybody loved it. Yeah, everybody loved peewee’s playhouse when it came out and it Even now watching it. I just I get a kick out of it. It’s fantastic. Yeah, it’s so much fun He took like these kids shows from when he was growing up like like my dad You know my dad’s age like Howdy Doody and this kind of stuff where you know It was just sort of a variety show these wacky characters coming on you have puppets and things like that but just sort of updated it for the late 80s and Made it fun.

You know, now it’s, it’s very common to have kids entertainment that also speaks to adults. Jokes that are in there for the parents watching it with the kids, that go over the kid’s head, but really land with the adults, and so everybody can enjoy watching it. And Pee Wee’s Playhouse, I think… I’m probably wrong, but it seems like it was one of the first television shows to really embrace this ethos and do things for both.

And Pee Wee Herman himself, so even when I was watching Pee Wee’s Playhouse, I had a cousin, and they had Showtime, and there were lots of comedy shows on Showtime at the time, and the Pee Wee Herman show that Paul Rubens did before he started Pee Wee’s Playhouse and before he did the movie, he was running around with this show, performing for adults, doing, I don’t want to say like, edgy adult material, but he had a, an adult side to him.

He was making off color jokes, he was a little racy and stuff. He played with that character a little bit before he made him just 100% more family friendly. And I watched that too, and I, as a teenager, I thought that was kinda cool, you know? Like, Pee Wee Herman had this other side. You never saw it anymore, but you know, you kinda saw that history of the character.

But it was all consistent. This sort of childlike, weird… Guy, but for some reason you couldn’t help but love him. I know! 

Craig: It almost, it almost defies explanation. I think universally loved, and the thing about the show, you know, I don’t know as much about the development of it. I do know that, you know, in the development of it, it was for adults.

Although he was playing a childlike character. But, the television show and the movies were wholesome! Yeah! And that wouldn’t be the first… Word that you would use to describe it, but it was totally kid friendly and he was kid friendly and I can only assume that he loved children. Otherwise, why would you do such a thing?

I do know that, you know, uh, in the earlier days before the scandal, which we’ll talk about in a second, but he pretty much only publicly it. appeared as Pee Wee, but he hired extra security because he was a heavy smoker, but he hired extra personal security to ensure that he was never photographed smoking in costume because he didn’t want kids to see that.

I don’t know, like, again, like you said, early on he, he typically, you know, appeared as Pee wee. I’ve been watching stuff on YouTube, like, he guest hosted for Joan Rivers when she briefly had her own late night show, and he did all kinds of things in character, uh, but. Within the last 20 years or so, he did more appearances as himself, and as himself, he just seemed like such a soft spoken, not, like, shy or 

Todd: awkward, just No, not at all.

Just 

Craig: very unassuming, and humble. Just 

Todd: seemed so humble. Humble, unassuming, yet funny and witty. So 

Craig: funny. So funny. Self assured. 

Todd: Like, just a very normal, like, Hey, here’s a funny guy, and I’m a funny guy, but, you know, I’m not gonna make a big deal out of it, but I’m, uh, I’m gonna crack some jokes. Like, you 

Craig: would kill to be able to be friends with this guy.

And, uh, last night I was watching, uh, after he passed away, Conan O’Brien talked about him on his podcast. Like, I mean, he could barely… speak, just as I’m struggling now, he could barely speak about him because, uh, they were friends and it seemed like to be friends with Paul Rubens was a real gift. And I think that, uh, the people who were lucky enough to have that relationship.

Oh God, as hard as it’s getting me, I can’t believe, I can’t imagine how hard it’s But I just think he was the coolest. And, uh, so, Transition, the only horror movie that, uh, he was in and it’s really, it’s not even described as horror on IMDB. I think it’s described as like comedy, fantasy. Adventure or something.

Todd: Right. 

Craig: Uh, but it has, um, Paul Reubens in it. Uh, the only thing, you know, I said to you last week, I’m seeing all this great stuff about him and what I’m seeing nothing about are the scandals that he was involved in. The lame ass scandals. Should we just follow suit? Maybe. You know, there were a couple of scandals for, for Stupid things.

Really stupid, innocuous, innocent 

Todd: things. Here’s the thing. Nowadays, this would be nothing. In 1991, he was arrested for indecent exposure in an adult theater for jerking off. Like, that’s what everybody does in adult theater. Right. Why the cops were even in there trying to arrest people is, like, beyond anything.

And even at the time, pretty much 80% of the American public was going… What the hell? Right, leave this guy alone. This is dumb. So, there was that. But, you know, he’s a child’s entertainer and so it’s embarrassing. But like, come on, all of us thought it was bullshit, and it was stupid, and whatever. The other thing was, apparently he was a collector of erotica, and as a famous rich man, he collected a ton of it, and he bought things in bulk, and apparently, at some point, when they were busting Jeffrey, what was his name?

Geoffrey Jones over it. There was some hot tip. Hey, check out, uh, Peewee Herman and they went to his house and went through his 70, 000 things or whatever and happened to find a few things that maybe was child pornography, but he didn’t know it wasn’t. No, but 

Craig: it wasn’t. It wasn’t. When they looked at it, they deemed that it was like, it was, it wasn’t charged.

Yeah. I mean, it was like centuries old erotica. It was, it was not child porn. 

Todd: It just wasn’t. No. Yeah. No sexual activity. Just like, and like you 

Craig: said, he collected this stuff, he bought it in bulk. He did. You know, uh, God, I, I, I hate to even talk about it. Bring it up. It’s just so, it’s just so stupid. But yeah, the point is, I, I do appreciate the fact that people openly had his back.

It wasn’t just the public, you know, his celebrity friends who knew him. Both times, this is ridiculous, this is, we know this guy, he’s a great guy, and I know that sometimes that happens, and it turns out that the person in question isn’t a great guy, but in this case, it was, it was just dumb, it was dumb stuff, I get it, you’re right, it was, you know, like, Getting caught jerking off in a porn theater.

Sure. I mean, it’s embarrassing, especially if you’re a public figure, a children’s entertainer, sure. It’s embarrassing, but come on. You and I were talking last week. I said, this was before this was before the internet, you know, this, 

Todd: you know, I mean, let us all jerk off in peace, 

Craig: right? Like if, if jerking off is a crime, you know, I would have.

been electrocuted centuries ago, you know, come on, leave the guy alone. Jesus. But anyway, that stupid arrest spawned a mug shot that he gleefully used as his inspiration for his look as a vampire in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, because he felt like it was the coolest he had ever looked.

Todd: He’s not wrong, he’s got a goatee, it’s so cool. 

Craig: You know, I didn’t know that at all, I had never even made the connection, it had never even occurred to me that. His look in this movie, um, was reminiscent of that mugshot, but when I read that, it was just one more thing to add to the list of how cool this guy was.

Like, to take such a shitty, embarrassing situation and find the good in it. 

Todd: You want to really look at the, you know, silver lining in all that, it did kind of… force him to take a break from Pee Wee and try some other things. And we might not even be talking about his role in Buffy the Vampire Slayer if that hadn’t happened.

And he did a number of other things and he became a little more comfortable just being himself on television and being like, you know, maybe I need to take a break with the Pee Wee character. And, and for what it’s worth, To be honest, like, he did a few things. He was a great actor. He’s fine in all these other roles.

Everything’s going to be under the shadow of Pee wee, just because that was so… It will always be so iconic and just so big that… What’s the point? Right, but I did 

Craig: enjoy seeing him in other things. I mean, even… In the Pee Wee days, he was billed under a false name, but he voiced the spaceship in Flight of the Navigator.

Oh, that was so fun. I loved that movie when I 

Todd: was a kid. Oh, we watch it so much. 

Craig: He was so great in that. He made a cameo as Pee Wee in Back to the Beach, which is another, like, such a stupid movie that I… Loved. Like, I still love that movie. It’s great. It’s the 

Todd: only thing I remember from Back to the Beach.

It’s the best 

Craig: part. It’s the best part. Oh, Surf and Bird. Oh my god. Look at YouTube that, guys. Back to the beach, Pee wee Herman. Watch it, it’s hilarious. Batman Returns, he played the Penguin’s father in a cameo, and, and it was brief, but, you know, re teaming with Tim Burton, who did Pee wee’s Big Adventure, um, and then he was a, he was a creepy guy in Matilda.

What was that, like, weird… Anti superhero movie with Janine Garofalo and Ben Stiller. Mystery Man, Mystery Man. Mystery Man, and he was a disgusting character in that. He was a good actor, like, the guy is talented. He was a talented, hilarious, funny, funny guy. And yeah, Pee Wee Herman was great, and I’m glad that he did everything that he did with it.

But you’re right, maybe it is a little bit of a silver lining. You know, other, his friends, Phil Hartman had kind of scolded him at some point and said, You’re You’re more than this, you know, you’re better than just this, you know, and all that was pre scandal. And so maybe the scandal did, you know, kind of afford him an opportunity to do more.

And I, and I’m, I’m glad he did cause yeah, I enjoyed seeing him anytime he popped up, he popped up, uh, in a cameo in pushing daisies, uh, a TV show that only lasted for two seasons, but was brilliant and only got canceled because of the writer’s strike back. Then, but, oh man, great guy, and, and he’s hilarious in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and I want to talk about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I really do, but I, I’ve been dying to say nice things about Paul Reubens, because I admire him, like, Todd, I, like, I’ve been thinking, like, where can, where can I get a tattoo, like, I’m not even kidding, like, I’m, Seriously considering getting a minimalist Pee Wee Herman tattoo on my 

Todd: body.

This is the 

Craig: thing. I know it’s good. I think, and I honestly got, I like, I’m, I’m planning it. Like I think on one forearm, minimalist Pee Wee Herman, and then someday on the other forearm, minimalist, minimalist Elvira. And I think that’s going to be it. That’s going to be my, do much worse. That’s gonna be my late in life tattoo.

That’s 

Todd: how you want to defile your body. 

Craig: It is. I want to look at those two every day, because they’re two of my favorite people, and they were best of friends. You know, Paul Reubens and Cassandra Peterson. Just absolute best of friends and it makes perfect sense to me and I wish that I could have been friends with them.

Todd: Fair 

Craig: enough. It’s still my dream to get Cassandra Peterson on this podcast, by the way, just in case, just in case anybody out there in the ether has a connection to Cassandra Peterson. My dream in life, my dream in life to have her on this podcast. 

Todd: Wouldn’t that be wonderful? Paul Reubens. I would rather have her.

on here before we do a tribute 

Craig: episode. Oh my god, please, please, no. She will be with us for another 45 years because I can’t handle it otherwise. She’s still fantastic. Yeah, and gorgeous. So you’ve never seen the movie, and you said you watched one episode of the TV show. Did you watch the first 

Todd: episode?

Uh, yeah. 

Craig: Oh my god. You know, as it is… As it is with most TV shows, you kind of have, like, they need a solid season to find their footing. I get it. Season one of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is not the best season. However, that show, it’s for sure 100% in my top five favorite shows ever. It’s brilliant. Well, 

Todd: all the people my age, who are all friends of mine, you know, in college and all that stuff, like, everybody but me.

Has watched this TV show and gushes about how great it is. So I don’t doubt it at all. Even the first episode I saw, I get it. All the pilots are a little odd, right? But like, it was still ten times better than this movie. The thing about it is, this movie, it’s, it’s kind of cool to be talking about it now.

Because now, the writer and creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Joss Whedon, has had a lot under his belt. Yeah. We get his style. We understand it. The TV show. really led to that. But he’s written and directed a couple, the Avengers, big Avengers movies, Cabin in the Woods, like all these movies, like, we get it, like, he’s a smart guy, he’s got a great sense of humor, he’s always been writing different stuff.

And so, when I watched this movie, 1992’s Buffy the Vampire Slayer, written by Joss Whedon, but not directed by him, directed by Fran Rubel Kuzui, who, before this, had only done a kind of independent Movie about someone who moves to 

Craig: Tokyo and then only did one movie after 

Todd: this I think and you can see why like as a guy Who’s made movies as a guy who’s written some stuff who’s in theater and things like that Like I’m always thinking like I get how this movie comes across but I’m thinking about the words I’m thinking about how the script would look on paper and all that and I thought you know what this movie in somebody else’s hands Directed a completely different way would be way better than this movie.

Like everything that’s wrong with this movie doesn’t certainly number one has nothing to do with the concept. The concept is brilliant. Yeah. The concept sells the movie right away. I love the 

Craig: concepts because what he wanted to do, like he’s in horror movies. These dumb girls are always just running around getting killed.

Let’s flip. Let’s take one of these dumb girls that’s gonna be the one who’s running up the stairs when she should be running out the door and let’s make her the badass who’s gonna take down the bad guys. The concept is brilliant. And it’s 

Todd: cute, and it’s funny, and you get it. Like, even just the title, you hear it and you’re like, oh, okay, I get it.

It’s so smart. So there’s that. And then, like I said, as I was watching this movie, I could pinpoint in every scene where they were messing up. It was either the acting, it was the pacing, it was the editing, it was the, a wrong take on the character, and maybe, again, I have this prism of nowadays Joss Whedon, like, I kind of can see where he was trying to go with these characters.

And God. I love Donald Sutherland. I respect him a lot. We’ve watched a number of his movies here. He’s a fantastic and well respected actor. He’s not always great in everything that he does. A lot of times he does phone it in. Joss Whedon had nothing but shitty things to say about him. Said he was a dick, and entitled, and impossible to work with, and changed his lines, and made things up on set, and whatever, and was one of the reasons why he eventually left.

He was… You know, on set as an advisor, at least for this for a while, and got so frustrated with the way the movie was going that he just left. You can tell this is not his vision, but you can also see the kernel of his vision in it. Yes, 

Craig: that’s, and that’s, you can totally, like, there are moments, because I have watched the series in its entirety several times.

So yeah, there are definitely moments in the movie where you’re like, there it is. There’s Joss’s Buffy. I see it for just a second. I’ll just say it now. There’s a, there’s a moment at the end. There’s a big dance, a big school dance at the end. And there’s sad Buffy at the dance. And, you know, the bad boy love interest comes in and like saves the day.

That f ing happens. Like, exactly. Exactly that exact same moment happens. Season three, Buffy’s prom, and it’s gorgeous. And I cried.

It’s great. So you see moments. There are there. I feel like it probably should be addressed that Joss Whedon is potentially a great writer. I think he’s a great writer and, and probably a good. filmmaker, not so great a person. Yeah. And that’s another one of those things where it’s so disappointing because, you know, the movie did fairly well.

It more than recouped its budget. It, it did fine, but the TV show was a phenomenon and it was so widely praised for kind of being a feminist vehicle. Yeah. Progressive and feminist. Um, as it turns out, Joss Whedon was a PRICK to all the women that he worked with. It’s crazy. Which was just terrible. Just, just absolutely terrible to them.

He was awful to Charisma Carpenter, who’s, I just love. She was great on the show, and I think they wrote her off the show so that she could transfer over to Angel. But, uh, then, she got pregnant and told him, and he was like, well, are you gonna keep it? Like, what a gross thing to say to somebody. Mmm. Mmm.

Then. And not only did he fire her, but he assassinated her character before she left. And that makes me so angry. And if you get on, you know, like read people’s, what people write about Joss and all of that going down, people are just furious at the way that not only was he terrible to her as a person, but he really just destroyed her character in the final.

Season that she was in. Oh god. So yeah, there’s that I you know, I I just don’t again it’s one of those things like do you separate the art from the artist because the show Buffy is Brilliant and it’s brilliantly written and he was such a large part of that and so I want to celebrate that and I and I Don’t think that being a dick Precludes you from being allowed to work if you’re talented, you know, he’s not a criminal.

He’s just a jerk I’m sure there are a lot of jerks in Hollywood. It’s just a Disappear 

Todd: sad. Yeah. Well, it’s like especially disappointing when a guy who writes such, you know, obviously sort of feminist type stuff Yeah, it’s out to be and he 

Craig: really does like he writes strong women now I I do think a lot of that is lost in translation in this movie for sure because 

Todd: God, this movie.

Like, 

Craig: we’re 30 minutes in, we haven’t even started talking about it, and you, you, uh, if I can read you at all, you didn’t like it, you hated it, you 

Todd: thought it was terrible. I just, you know, I just, I think in my head, so having not seen it, like I said, having been surrounded by it but never seeing it, as a, you know, in high school and growing up and like, oh, I need to get back to that because it’s gotta be funny, yeah, I heard it wasn’t that great, like, it was disappointing, but.

Again, this sort of lived in my head as this, yeah, but it’s gonna be this silly, goofy, funny kind of comedy that I’ll get a kick out of anyway, knowing that it’s disappointing and not as good as the TV series. No. Like, I watched it and I’m like, this isn’t even a good movie. It’s so rare that I watch a movie and I can pinpoint all the wrong things about it, and I’m bored.

And I’m frustrated at how bad it is when it never needed to be this bad. Just so much wasted potential, and it’s clear as day what’s wrong with it. First of all, you’ve got this great premise of this sort of ditzy blonde girl who, like you said, flips, flips the switch, right? It’s sort of like what Legally Blonde did right.

You could have this sort of legally blonde thing where there’s this girl but she’s actually not that dizzy like she’s kind of smart but like you know she does her thing and she kind of goes against type and and she kills the vampires and it’s great and I’m sure that’s how the tv series is Actually, I don’t think the TV series, she’s that ditzy, but anyway, You watch this movie, and it can’t even commit to what it’s trying to do.

The first ten minutes of the movie are her, in Valley Girl speak, With all of her friends, being over the top ditzy and goofy, And then the minute she finds out she’s a vampire slayer, She turns into a lesbian. Me . 

Craig: She’s like 

Todd: not at all ditzy anymore. She’s a lesbian. . 

Craig: No, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m not trying to be stereotypical, but like she goes from like having this bouffant like done hair, tons of makeup.

17 magazine. tight mini dresses and then like she has one training session and she’s in like Timberland boots. She’s like Tomb Raider. Jeans, jean cutoffs, um, flannel shirts, like she is a woodsman.

Todd: It’s so jarring that it calls attention to itself. You’re like, what happened to this girl? Is this the same girl? She walks like 

Craig: she’s saddlesore. I don’t understand. What happens to her. Now I agree, yeah, that’s super 

Todd: jarring. Then we’ve got Donald Sutherland, who is playing Donald Sutherland. Yeah. And he’s Merrick, and he’s the guy who is supposedly multiple times reincarnated and it’s his job to train these vampires.

They, they both are. 

Craig: We’ve seen, we see them in multiple 

Todd: time periods. Flashbacks, yeah, playing themselves. But anyway, you know, he’s self aware, she has to be told. And he comes in and… He’s Donald Sutherland, it’s fine, but you know what, he’s so aloof as a character, and so distant, that there’s a moment where he dies, and all of the characters are like, bawling their eyes out, and I’m like, Who the f k cares?

Like, I had no emotional connection to this guy, nor did I understand why Buffy herself had an emotional connection to him. She’s 

Craig: known him for like a week. 

Todd: Yeah, exactly. And he’s like her trainer. And the funny thing is, is like, again, you could listen to the dialogue, and if you just imagined this character being played a different way, with the same dialogue and the same scenes, you could see how this could totally work.

Uh, 

Craig: yeah, her watcher in the TV show is Amazing. 

Todd: But it’s, you know, the way he plays it, and again, I, I fault the director, I think the director, the directing was totally incompetent. And then, just the scenes, they just, oh my god, like, the action scenes in here, are awful. Whedon 

Craig: said that Sutherland refused to perform the lines as written.

Like, he rewrote all of his own lines, and uh, To the point where they were just nonsensical, like they just didn’t make any sense. I didn’t notice that specifically, but, like, Whedon hated the guy. Just hated him. Oh, yeah. Alright, let me give you, before we move forward, let me tell you, okay, so… When, uh, I was a kid, my sister and I watched this movie.

Somebody recommended it to us, I don’t remember. But we watched it, and we really liked it, and we liked it a lot, and we watched it a bunch of times. I liked it so much. That when the TV show came out, I was like, Mm, not my Buffy. And I didn’t watch it for the first season. And then my friends, I was in college at that point, My friends were like, My friends were having like weekly Buffy parties.

Getting together, cooking dinner together to watch Buffy. This is so gay. 

Todd: Go on. I 

Craig: was going to say, not my gay friends, but it was.

Oh, that’s so cute. That reminds me, that’s… That’s when Alan and I started, like, flirting, and, like, That’s a different story. You guys made over Buffy. We did. We had a little meet cute over Buffy. Another time. Minisoad. 

Todd: Minisoad? You gotta pay for this. Either the Minnesota or your only fans of K drama. 

Craig: No, my only fans is strictly for nudes.

There you go. So anyway, but then I totally, so I started going to the parties with my friends and I totally got into the show and I loved it and hadn’t watched this movie since then. And planning to watch it with you, I was like, oh my god. I remember it being really stupid. It’s going to be so stupid. I’m going to hate it and I put it on and I started watching it and the first scene is, I don’t know if we have time to go through the whole movie, but there are parts that I want to talk about is a flashback to the dark ages and it’s like this terrible community theater costumed dark ages with What’s her name?

Christy Swanson. Christy 

Todd: Swanson. Yeah, oh god. 

Craig: Don’t get me started. Don’t even get me 

Todd: started. Well, she’s no stranger to the podcast. One of the earliest episodes we did was Deadly Friend. 

Craig: I know and at this point I loved her and I will be fair and say that she’s gorgeous in this movie and I don’t think that she did anything wrong.

She’s fine. I just don’t want to talk about it, but um… 

Todd: We’re talking about how shitty Donald Sutherland is, but we’re not going to talk about Christy Swanson. I’ll get in trouble, 

Craig: we’ll get hate mail, and the hate mail hurts my feelings. So I don’t want to do it! 

Todd: Ha ha! You’re this is like a game of poker.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! No one to hold em, no one to fold em on certain actors, huh? Ha ha! So 

Craig: we get this history, or whatever. And then the very first scene is a cheer a long… Cheerleading routine. Yes. And so, I’m going into this thinking I’m gonna not like this movie and I’m watching it and I’m like, Chrissy Swanson doesn’t know this routine.

Did you notice that? I was a little unsure. They had to keep, they had to keep cutting it. It’s so cut. Because she doesn’t know it. She doesn’t know the routine and she only knows it one or two steps at a time. And all of the other girls around her are so confident and they have it. And she just has no idea what she’s doing.

They cut it. So you can’t really tell. I don’t remember, but that’s the only negative thing I will say about her performance. In fact, what I will say is I loved it. I loved the movie. What? Are you kidding me? I thought it was hilarious. I thought it was 

Todd: hilarious. This is nostalgia speaking. 

Craig: It is. It has to be, but it also, like, I had forgotten there are so many lines in this movie that I quote all the time, and I had entirely forgotten that they came from this movie.

Doesn’t make them funny. Oh my god, I was dying. And, since we’re not going to have time to talk about the plot, I just have… Throughout my notes, exclamation points, Hillary Swank, right? Ricky 

Todd: Lake, right? Ben Affleck, Ben Affleck. That one threw me for a loop.

Craig: There are so many people and then not only that, but. You can criticize Sutherland. I don’t have any problem with that. I agree. He’s not great in this movie. I think that he’s functional. Like, I just don’t think his art is very important. Whereas the, the Watcher Slayer relationship is so important in the series and like they become like father and daughter and it’s heartbreaking.

It’s, it’s, uh, so good. Anthony Stewart Head is the Watcher. The series, by the way, acknowledges some of the events of the movie. Yeah. Um, but really, really the series. It’s a sequel to the movie that Joss wanted to make. It’s a sequel to the screenplay that he originally wrote, not the actual movie. So, there are some things that the movie says about the events.

That occurred before Buffy came to Sunnydale, that don’t match up with the movie, but that’s because, uh, it was changed from his original screenplay. Right. Donald Sutherland, love him or hate him, whatever, huge star. Yeah. 

Todd: What’s the, what’s the guy, Rutger Hauer. Rutger 

Craig: Hauer, massive. Is basically the Dracula of the movie, the, you know, the major big bad vampire, huge star.

Like, there are huge… There are. 

Todd: Luke Perry at this time was your 90210, he was the heartthrob of the time, of the moment. Rutger Hauer, he’s the big bad guy in this movie. He’s supposedly, like, the final boss. And, there are like three short scenes with him. We barely understand where he came from, why he’s there.

What his goal is, what his weaknesses are, we don’t understand 

Craig: any of this. He’s a vampire. You kill him like you kill 

Todd: a vampire. Yeah, but why is he there? What’s going on? Like, uh, 

Craig: uh, why is he there? Apparently he’s after Buffy because he’s been after her in every one of her lifetimes. I don’t know. Like, what more motivation do you need?

Like, 

Todd: why is he just hanging around? Why is he hanging around? somewhere else. I mean, like, 

Craig: if he knows where she is, there’s no backstory for like, apparent, like in the beginning, it appears that he’s weak and, uh, Paul Rubens, who I’m just going to call that because his name is like amylin or something stupid, which I don’t recall ever hearing being said.

Yeah. Who knows? Paul Reubens is like his familiar, but he’s a vampire too, but like, he’s his lackey. And in the beginning, it seems like Paul Reubens, because he’s got this scene where he’s like, Sleep, master, my own sleep. I have already begun building you a new family. Soon we will be legion. When you rise, we will Hauer is

He’s, his name’s Lothos, he’s like weak or needs to be revived or something, but that’s never explained. And then he just is like, like he, like he can’t get out of his coffin and then he’s floating 

Todd: in the air. Yeah. And then he just kind of is somewhere, I guess, hanging out in his lair or whatnot while Paul Rubens, his character and a couple other guys.

I just never got a sense of what the actual danger was that Buffy was up against, what it took to take them down, what the stakes were, haha, stakes, uh, haha. It’s just unclear, except from this general movie thing, Hey, vampires are bad, and she’s the vampire killer, so naturally she’s gonna kill them. I mean I don’t know, Todd, it’s 

Craig: a movie.

It’s a PG 13 horror 

Todd: comedy. Why can the totally vamped out vampire be playing on the basketball team and nobody thinks it’s weird that this guy looks utterly… Crazy. I don’t 

Craig: know. Like, would your first thought be, Oh, look, it’s a 

Todd: vampire. I don’t know. Maybe because I was also raised on Teen Wolf, and I remember that that’s a pretty frickin huge deal.

This guy goes out on the basketball court looking like a werewolf, you know? I don’t know. he could probably 

Craig: get away with the pale skin and the teeth and the weird ears. For some reason, the vampires in this movie have weird ears. I don’t know. He could probably get away with that, but, but floating down from the basketball hoop?

People might notice.

Todd: But you know, not, yeah. 

Craig: Okay. There are things that I do want to mention, but you’re right. Okay. So they’re just Valley girls in the beginning. Hillary Swank is king. Hilarious in this movie, like every scene that she’s in, I am dying laughing cause she’s so funny. This is, I think that she had done some TV.

Uh, I, at some point she did. Yeah, this is her first movie. Oh my God. So funny. As this terrible bitchy valley girl, but hilarious. They all are in the beginning. David Arquette 

Todd: is in this. Oh my God. David Arquette! 

Craig: I know! And Luke Perry, our high school friends. God, we are so… Old. I know. But then eventually, uh, the guy, Sutherland, what’s his name in this?

I don’t remember. Merrick. Merrick comes to Buffy in the gym after he sees her doing gymnastics because she’s a gymnast. And he’s like, I didn’t know until now. I couldn’t have known until now. But just seeing you do gymnastics, you are the chosen 

Todd: one. Just seeing you flip like 15 more times before this movie’s over.

Craig: That does carry over to the show. She is very acrobatic.

But, like, she just has, she has some great lines. Like, he’s telling her this, like, you’re the chosen one or whatever. And she’s like, Does Elvis talk to you? Does he tell you to do things? Do you… see spots? 

Todd: Uh, oh my god. That dates us too, by the way. And he’s like, 

Craig: spots, that’s, that’s it. He’s like, that’s why I couldn’t find you, because you’re supposed to have this birthmark.

And she’s like, ew, that big hairy mole I had that removed, gross. Um, but he takes her to the graveyard. So that she can see vampires come out, and she kills them. One of the big differences in this movie, when she stakes a vampire, they just fall out of frame, and you never see them again. It’s a big deal in the show, when she stakes a vampire, they, they poof.

They just turn into dust. Yeah, I noticed that. And they go away. Which, logistically, makes a lot more sense, because… Otherwise, there’s gonna be tons of dead vampires later on, like, nobody’s gonna 

Todd: notice. There are gonna be questions. The principal’s gonna have a few things to say, yeah. Um, 

Craig: great Salem’s Lot tribute with Luke Perry and, uh, Arquette.

Do you notice that, right? Like, him floating out the window totally assailing 

Todd: the flying thing. Oh, yeah. With a funny line, right? He’s like, You 

Craig: want something? No. Let me in, Pike! I’m hungry! Go home, Ben. I’m hungry! You’re floating! Come on, man! Get away from here! Ha ha! God, that was funny. Um, Buffy, you know, dreams that the Big bad is in her bed, but she wakes up and he’s fine.

Then Donald Sutherland approaches her in the locker room at her gym because she was supposed to come train with him, but she didn’t. And she says, what are you doing here? This is a naked place, which I love that line, but he’s like, okay, fine. I’ll leave. But he doesn’t. And then he turns around and he throws a knife at her head.

You threw a knife at my head. Yes, I have to show you. But, you threw a knife at my head. And you caught it. Only the chosen one could have caught it. Don’t you get it? I don’t want to be the chosen one. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life chasing after vampires. All I want to do is graduate from high school, go to Europe, marry Christian Slater, and die.

Now, it may not sound too sconehead like you, but I think it’s swell. You come along and tell me I’m a member of the hairy mole club so you can throw things at me? I thought that was the funniest thing I had ever heard in my life. And then she punches him, but the fact that she punches him makes her realize that she’s a badass.

And so… Now she’s a badass. They do a training montage to a divinal song. Oh god, it’s a boring 

Todd: training montage. 

Craig: The, the, the band, the group that sings When I Think About You I Touch Myself There’s a… It’s not that song, but it sounds a lot like it. And it’s the same. Band, by the way, 

Todd: training montage, love, speaking of training montage, all of the action in this movie is so poorly filmed.

I don’t know if I’ve seen a movie that it had the intention of being a relatively, you know, action packed film with such ineptly filmed action sequences. What’s the bit where, where she gets on the motorcycle and she goes off. Oh 

Craig: my god, Motorcycle Madness? Oh. Ha ha ha ha ha ha 

Todd: ha ha ha! It’s so bad, it’s I was bored!

During these 

Craig: action sequences. That’s after the basketball game. There’s a basketball game, one of their friends who has been killed is a vampire, he plays basketball with Ben Affleck, and then he runs away, and, uh, she has to chase him, because if the vampires find out her name, then… There’s trouble. I don’t know Because this vampire knows her name she has to chase him but She can’t chase him on foot for some reason and so she beats up a biker and steals his motorcycle and then Luke Perry also happens In this moment, to be near a motorcycle, so he jumps on 

Todd: one, too.

Right. And they 

Craig: both ride their motorcycles to the Pasadena Parade Floats lot. Yes. What?! 

Todd: Like… That’s… They didn’t have an abandoned carnival set that they could have done? I don’t know. And then she just rides her motorcycle in there and instead of parking it and hopping off, she just jumps off of it and it crashes into a parade thing.

That 

Craig: set… Peace was, I, oh my God, it was fantastic. These enormous, elaborate, mechanized parade floats that apparently just run all the time, I guess, because they’re moving. The parade floats are like moving, like, except for that nothing, nothing happens. Yes, 

Todd: nothing happens there. Nothing with the float.

There’s a little tiny 

Craig: fight. Yeah, there’s a little fight. And the Watcher gets killed. Sutherland gets killed. For no good reason. That was such a lame, stupid scene. The big bad guy has Buffy, like, in his thrall. The Watcher, Sutherland’s like, No, you can’t kill her. So he, like, walks right up to the big bad guy and, like, goes to stake him.

But Rooker Howard just, like, grabs his… Hand and redirects the stake into him. Like it’s, it’s so anticlimactic. 

Todd: It’s such a stupid thing. This watcher is supposed to be this expert in vampire slaying gets taken down. It takes 

Craig: nothing quickly. And then the vampire Peewee Herman is like, Peewee Herman’s like, aren’t we going to eat and the big bad’s like, nah, she’s not ready.

Like what?

Todd: She’s not ready. Wait till she could definitely kick our asses before we take her down. Yeah. It’s dumb. And they just turn around and walk off. And that’s when you know that nothing makes sense and the stakes are… That… You don’t understand. I didn’t understand. It’s all 

Craig: just… It’s just building to a climax at a dance.

Like, the mean girls are mad at Buffy because she’s neglecting them and her boyfriend is mad at her because he’s neglecting her, blah, blah, blah. What’s his name Luke Perry’s trying to get out of town and his boss is… Thomas Jane?! Exclamation point! I would have not even recognized him. Um, but as hot as Thomas Jane is now in his 20s, Thomas Jane, holy shit.

Like, uh, man, super hot, but, and then Buffy does more training. She walks down an alley and sings. And they make a big deal out of how menstrual cramps are her secret weapon, which they dropped for the show. Thank God. It all builds, like, her friends are mad at her. She’s down to earth now. Like, she was a super silly valley girl before, but now she’s down to earth.

And she just realizes that her whole… pre, before life was stupid and vapid and vain and she’s a whole new person and she can’t relate with her friends anymore and they’re not listening to her real problems and blah blah blah but she decides look I’m still a girl and it’s still my senior year and I’m going to the dance.

Now as stupid as that sounds that really is That’s a central issue in the show. In this show, she is given this enormous responsibility. But she’s just a teenage girl, like, like, she wants to go on dates and have sleepovers and it’s not fair that she doesn’t, like, her work life balance is a major part.

Todd: Well, it’s the spider man thing too, right? I mean, you know, that’s kind of what the appeal of spider man He’s a superhero, but he’s still really just a kid who kind of wants to be a kid too And so yeah, I mean I that that’s fine with me. I just think the movie’s really clunky with it No, it is 

Craig: it is it happens immediately and and You know, she, she just, her character changes immediately and you’re supposed to feel sympathy for her.

Um, but she decides she’s going to go to the dance. So she buys a pretty dress and she puts one of those topsy turn things in her hair. What are those things called? Where you make a donut, where you make a donut on the back of your head.

And she goes to the dance and, uh, her boyfriend is there with. Some other dumb girl, and slashes the DJ, WHAT?! Like, all of this, it’s insane! But then, you know, her boyfriend’s there with another girl, so she’s very sad. And she goes and she stands by, uh, Cut out of a palm tree and she’s very sad. And then, and then Luke Perry comes in in his leather jacket and like, everything’s okay and they’re cute and they dance and it’s super sweet.

And I swear to God, the exact same thing happens in the season finale of season three. Of Buffy. Then the vampires attack and they’re like. They’re so funny. It’s like the United colors of Benetton vampires.

Every race is represented and they call her out and they’re like, we won’t hurt anybody at Buffy comes out, which is totally alive. And she goes out Seth green, who. That was a regular on the series, makes a one second cameo as one of these vampires. And she rips the bottom part of her floofy skirt off, and uh, puts on a leather jacket, and goes out and starts kicking butt.

But then, she gets confronted at some point by… Peewee. Yeah.

Hi, how’s it going? I’m fine, but you’re obviously having a bad hair day. Oh, funny. Admit it Buffy, aren’t there times when you just feel less than fresh? And he had had an earlier scene with Luke Perry where he had gotten his arm cut off and that’s a whole 

Todd: thing and then That’s kind of funny because he gets his arm cut off, but then he’s like, you ripped my jacket or something.

Yeah, my 

Craig: brand new jacket. He talks like that. He does. He’s hilarious. He’s so funny in this movie. He’s 

Todd: good in this. You wouldn’t even know he was Pee Wee necessarily, you know? 

Craig: Uh, I mean, I would recognize him, but… I 

Todd: mean, he’s not… 

Craig: No, no, no, no, totally different. But the best part is they’re fighting and quipping, because they’re both great quippers, and he’s like…

We’re immortal, Buffy. You can do anything. Oh yeah?

Clap! That was funny. Oh my god, and I thought it was 

Todd: so funny. That was the only time I laughed. In this whole movie. 

Craig: Oh my god. And then Lothos like starts playing the violin which puts her in the thrall. Again, and Peewee looks at him like, Oh yeah, thanks boss. And Lothos like looks at him and shakes his head no and stops playing so that she comes out of the thrall for just a second long enough to kill Paul Reubens.

And that death scene was entirely improvised by him. And I don’t care if you hate this movie or not. If you didn’t think that was hilarious, we can’t be friends anymore. 

Todd: I just thought it was out of. Keeping with the movie. Like, the movie, at times, is trying to be funny and quippy, but not this level of goofball.

And so when that happens, it’s like two steps over the edge where it just calls attention to itself as being totally off. I thought. I’m sorry if I 

Craig: thought it was hilarious. Like, he falls down to the ground and he’s out of frame. Ah, ugh. Ah, ah. And it goes on for a long time. And he’s like, he’s like pounding on the ground like, ah, ah, 

Todd: ah.

Well apparently they thought it was hilarious enough to like extend it into the credit sequence after the, after the movie, so. Oh my god. Oh, 

Craig: I thought it was so funny, and then, I don’t know, there’s some poignant moment where Buffy’s in thrall, but then she realized she doesn’t need to be in thrall anymore.

It’s supposed to have something to do with a quote from Hamlet, but like, whatever. It’s just dumb. Like, oh, I just realized you have no power over me. So up until then, she’s like, been in this thrall or whatever. Now she’s not anymore. And he’s talking to her, and he says, you and I. are one. And she goes, one what?

Cute couple? I don’t think so.

Listen, seriously, Christy Swanson today can fall off a cliff for all I care, but I think she is hilarious. And oh my god, and really, really pretty. Like I had forgotten. Oh yeah, she is. How pretty. She’s so pretty, and whatever she, you know, like she holds up a crucifix and he grabs it and it sets on fire and she’s like, he’s like, this is how you’re going to defend yourself, your puny faith, and she whips out a can of hairspray and says, no, my keen fashion sense blowtorches his 

Todd: face.

Craig: And then they have a super, super anticlimactic battle. On the dance floor. Oh, it’s 

Todd: so 

Craig: bad. It’s so bad. It lasts all of 30 seconds. She does some flippies. And it’s 

Todd: not filmed well. There’s nothing interesting about Oh 

Craig: god. No, it’s very, very anticlimactic. And she ultimately just takes him. Like, it does Silly.

That’s unfortunate. 

Todd: Well, I’ll tell you what’s unfortunate. After all this is done, then now it’s she and Luke, Perry, are now together. They hop on a motorcycle and ride off into the sunset. No. He hops on a motorcycle, she hops on the back, and they go off into the sunset. I could not believe that was the last image that this supposedly, like, badass woman, vampire killer, is gonna go out on.

At least put her in the front! At least have her riding the motorcycle! She’s still a girl, 

Craig: Todd! That is clear! It’s Luke! Luke Perry. Luke Perry is not gonna sit on the back of that motorcycle. Listen, I liked Luke Perry in this movie too. Like, he’s so understated to the point like he’s a little sleepy. But, I didn’t care.

I still thought it was funny. I still thought he was funny. Uh, David Arquette, funny. All these famous people popping up. Ricky Lake, Slash. God, it was funny. I just feel like this. I understand. I was talking to Alan about it because you texted me. You sent me several texts when you were watching this movie like I could tell that it was having an impact on you.

You didn’t like it was the gist of your multiple texts that you sent me. And I told Alan, I was like, I get it. Like if I had never seen it before and I were to watch it now, I would probably think that it was really stupid too. But having watched it when I was a kid, and I just feel like, not only is it nostalgic for me for that reason, but captures a very specific moment in time.

Well, it sure does. Like, this came out in 1992, which, oh my god, is so specific. We were still clinging to some of those things from the 80s, but we were moving more into the 90s, like we were still kind of clinging to the bright colors and big hair of the 80s, but moving into the kind of the grungier and part of the 90s and like Buffy goes through that transition in one scene.

Yeah, 

Todd: and it kind of In a way foretells the edgier, more self aware and, and hip teen comedy and horror movies too, that we were about to get like a year or two later. Yes. But I mean, it’s not there. It’s like the transition movie, right? It’s like the inept little bit that we had to get through, but it foretells that.

And it’s got a lot of the people in it that would go on to be like in these other movies. And so, yeah, in that way you’re right. It’s a cool time capsule specifically for its time. As a movie. Well, 

Craig: I liked it. We should probably just thank Dolly Parton, like, blanket, you know? Like, for just being who she is.

But we can specifically thank her for bringing Buffy the Vampire Slayer into the world because it was her production company that funded both the movie and the television show. Fantastic. Um, this movie had to be produced. In only five weeks, because they had to work around Luke Perry’s 90210 schedule.

You know, he was the huge star. Uh, and God, I didn’t even remember this, but the original, if you go to IMDB, the poster that you’ll see, um, with the title, is the original poster. But, the poster, that was the poster that came out before the movie actually came out. When the movie actually came out, the poster that you saw in theaters was just, Christy Swanson.

in front with Luke Perry peering out from behind her. Totally white backgrounds, nothing else. And they did that just to capitalize on him. And, if you watch the trailer for this movie, the trailer will lead you to believe that this is a movie about Luke Perry. Uh, it’s, he, he narrates the trailer. Uh, it starts out with like, a couple days ago I met this girl named Buffy, but she’s different than other girls.

Like, it’s crazy. It seems like it’s supposed to be about him, but they were trying to capitalize on his fame. 

Todd: Yeah, he was the big guy at this time. Him and the other dude. Who was the other dude who was in 90210? Oh, I don’t know. Basically, you were either team Luke or 

Craig: team that other dude. Brian Austin Green was one of them, and there is another one.

I don’t know, whatever, who cares. With all the cameos that were there, David Bowie and Mick Jagger were supposed to make cameos, but they couldn’t make the schedules work. Why? Like, who did this, who did this, who did these people know that they were even maybe gonna get David Bowie and Mick Jagger? Right.

Oh, it’s crazy. Um, but I said, uh, one of the last things. Last night I was watching clips about Paul Reubens, and I watched that clip of Conan O’Brien. It’s a video clip, but it’s, you know, just a video recording of his podcast. And, again, he was very emotional talking about his friend. But one of the things that stuck with me was that he said that Paul Reubens New that he was loved, he knew that people loved him.

He knew that people loved his character. Um, and he was humble and he was grateful. Uh, and that just made me so happy because really, before he passed away, I hadn’t thought about him in a while. Yeah. You know, I mean, he he… He lives, you know, in my head forever, but he hadn’t been around for a while, and as it turns out, he had been privately dealing with cancer for, for years, for many years, for, I think, like, six years.

Before his death, he penned a note to his fans, and, and, I’ll read from it. Uh, he said, Please accept my apology for not going public with what I’ve been facing the last six years. I have always felt a huge amount of love and respect from my friends, fans, and supporters. I have loved you all so much and enjoyed making art for you.

Ugh. Like, rest in peace. Shh. What a 

Todd: good guy. Thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. You can find us online if you just Google two guys in a chainsaw podcast. Find us on all of our social media channels. Also check out our patreon page patreon.

com slash chainsaw podcast. Let us know your memories of Paul Reuben. Let us know what you thought of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the movie. I would just love to talk with you guys about this. stuff. Drop us a note. Again, thank you so much for listening and share this with someone else that you think would enjoy it as well.

That’s the best support we can get from you. Until next time, I’m Todd, and I’m Craig, with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

In 1982, horror icons George Romero and Stephen King collaborated to kick off the first in a franchise of beloved horror anthologies. With a star-studded cast and tongue planted firmly in-cheek, Creepshow translates the iconic horror comics of the 50’s to the silver screen with glee. We loved chatting about this iconic and legendary film and film series in the horror pantheon. Enjoy!

Creepshow (1982)

Ep 356, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, this week I just decided to pick one that I kind of wanted to see. We were a little under the gun the way that we record these episodes. Sometimes we do several in advance, which gives me a little bit of a break.

Or Craig a little bit of a break when we need it. And because we needed that break these last couple weeks, it has been a good solid two weeks, I think. Since you’ve seen this movie, and we chose it, and I chose Creepshow. I just chose it because I was kind of under the gun to choose something. It had been on my list.

We hadn’t done it yet. We’ve done Creepshow 2. But this is a long time favorite movie of mine. So, I was really happy to go revisit it. I probably saw this a dozen times as a kid. The first time I saw it, I know my dad rented it for me and watched it with me. And I might have been… A little younger than I think I would be renting it for my son.

You know? I think part of the reason why this movie really sticks in my brain is I was so young when I saw it, and so there were elements of this movie that at that time were, were more shocking to me than they, you know, obviously are now. But, you know, it comes from a great pedigree. It’s Stephen King is the writer.

A couple of these are based on his short stories. Other ones he just wrote up whole cloth from it. It’s based on my favorite, we’ve talked about it before. The EC horror comics from the 50s, and collaboration with George Romero, and did really, really well at the box office. It was Warner Brothers top horror movie for that year.

Once it came out, it knocked Rambo First Blood off the top spot in the theaters. So yeah, pretty impressive. But yeah, I haven’t seen this, oh God, in probably 15, 20 years, so I was real happy to revisit it. I see, I think that you and 

Craig: I had totally opposite experiences because I grew up watching Creepshow 2.

I saw that when I was a kid. I don’t remember how old I was. You know, old enough to ride my bike to the video store and… Rent an R rated movie at like, 12, cause you know, they would let us do that back in those days. But I, I, the good old days. Is that good or 

Todd: bad? Yeah. Those days are gone, I thought. 

Craig: I don’t know.

Seriously, like, me and my cousins, you know, probably 12, 13 years old, we would, You know, ride our bikes to Mr. Movie or, you know, some other, like, local video place and be like, Yeah, our dad said it was fine. They just hand it over. Yeah, no big deal. Who cares? But so I grew up watching that movie and I really like that movie.

I don’t think I saw Creepshow 1 until I was an adult. I mean, at least a teenager, if not. College. And I think probably college and I haven’t seen it as many times. And probably just because I grew up with part two, I think I like part two better, right? You know, I was thinking about it and there are only three stories in part two.

Is that right? And there are 

Todd: five here. Correct. Yeah. They had to cut it down to three based on budget constraints. So yeah, I 

Craig: don’t know, for whatever reason also, you know, just. It’s part two, so it was made later, so, not much later, I mean it’s still 80s, but I don’t know. Something about part two just feels a little bit more polished to me.

The thing about this one is because there are so many stories, they happen so fast, and I don’t dislike that, but… It’s difficult to get attached to any characters. I mean, they’re, they’re just really… I just, even like Machine Gun Fire, these, these stories come at you. They start, they happen, they’re done, moving on.

Which, you know, that, that could… For many people, I think, be a positive thing, but it just made it a little bit difficult for me to get invested in any of the 

Todd: stories. I think the tone of the of the two films is very different. The tone of this movie is, I would almost say, half jokey. You know?

They’re, they’re kind of cheesing it off. Dark 

Craig: humor, but definitely jokey, 

Todd: yeah. Yeah, dark humor, definitely jokey. They’re leaning hard into the horror comics. Like, I would say being even more faithful to those old horror comics than than the second movie. It’s a little more straightforward horror. This movie goes as far as to have transitions that look like, you know, comic strips moving and Which I love!

Yeah. Yeah. It was cute and it was fun. You know, these old horror comics, I’m not going to go off on them like I’ve done several times before, but one of the things, you know, they did upset parents at the time they were pushing boundaries and they had ghastly artwork in these in these stories. And one of the ways that they sort of self censored the colorists at the at EC Comics when they were coloring the artwork deliberately would tone down The gruesomeness by just making things, like a panel would be all blue.

So maybe there was like gore and stuff in the panel, but they would just paint the whole thing blue. So it wasn’t, it didn’t look like a bloody mess. There is a bloody mess being drawn there, but the coloring somehow… Mutes it a little bit and this movie I thought was kind of cute how it would do that, like when the gory scary scenes came in, it would do that like free that framing around it sometimes where it looks like you’re in a comic strip or there’d be some kind of artwork around them.

They would do it with 

Craig: lighting. That’s right. And like, and. Practical lighting, which I thought was really cool, like, Randomly, the one that pops into my head is, one of the stories is The Crate, and at the very, very end, When some ghastly stuff is happening, Hal Holbrook is just, like, standing in, like, a stairwell, And it goes from, Realistic lighting to just these red lights come up behind him.

Yeah, 

Todd: like someone flipped a switch like in the same shot. Yeah, it’s really cool. But it, but it’s not, 

Craig: it’s not really an effect. It’s just, they just changed the lighting. Yes. But it makes it look like. A comic book sell and it’s cool. I really like stuff like that. There’s a lot of good stuff going on in this movie.

I don’t, I don’t want to insinuate that I don’t like it cause I do. I think it’s fun. I think there’s a lot of good stuff going on so much in fact that we should probably talk about 

Todd: just like a lot of anthology stories do. There is a wraparound story. And this is actually I thought one of the more disturbing parts of the whole film, really.

Like, like, straightforward disturbing. But the wraparound 

Craig: for part two is kind of disturbing, too, you know, with that kid who’s bullied and then he gets his revenge on the bully. It’s pretty dark, but this one is dark, too. Like, it opens up with, you know, a classic house with a jack o lantern at night. And the score even sounds like Carpenter’s score from Halloween.

I don’t know if they did that on purpose. They surely did. 

Todd: Seems like deliberate homage with that jack o lantern in the window that looks suspiciously like that jack o lantern in the opening credits for Halloween. But 

Craig: we open on a scene of domestic abuse where, like, this dad is just… Like, he’s furious at his son for reading trash comics, which just is so funny and quaint to me.

Like, I would think that any parent today would celebrate their kid reading anything. 

Todd: That’s where we’ve come, you know? 

Craig: The dad, he’s 

Todd: like, I never saw such rotten crap in my life. Where do you get this shit? Who sells it to you? I’m talking to you young man. You want to answer me when i’m talking to you?

You remember who puts the freaking bread on the table around here, 

Craig: don’t you? And then he goes on to kind of like summarize the stories that we’re going to be seeing. Yeah, and the kid Who, by the way, is played by Joe Hill, Stephen King’s son. Watching it this time around and looking into it, this is the first time that I realized that.

Even though, in retrospect, I’m pretty sure that in one of Joe Hill’s books, he talks about this. The filming of this movie and how you know, Romero was… And, of course, his own dad, but, you know, a real hero of his and really, you know, he respected… And admired and tried to emulate their storytelling.

And Joe Hill’s a great author, friends. If you haven’t read his stuff, read it. It’s fantastic. But the dad hits him, 

Todd: right? Like, backhands him. The dad’s played by Tom Atkins. And yeah, he, he backhands on my, he, I think he whacks him with the comic book. And I read in the trivia that Stephen King was on set for this and he was kind of nervous about the whole thing.

And so was Romero. So I guess if you look really closely and pay attention, Joe is actually hitting himself and it was just such a quick shot that they cut away that you don’t quite notice it. So it’s so funny where even in the filming of this, they were a little nervous about the domestic violence bit because this is so typical King, right?

Oh yeah. Like. Every parent in the Stephen King story is, like, a horrible, abusive parent. 

Craig: I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s kind of more of a Wes Craven thing, but yeah, Stephen, Stephen King has it too. Oh yeah. The kid, the kid yells at his dad, I hope you rot in 

Todd: hell! Oh my god, the dad’s cursing and swearing at him.

It’s crazy. It’s crazy. 

Craig: And then, what I call the creep, what would you call it, the, the, Crypt Keeper type dude, whatever, he appears outside the window and in this iteration, It’s animated, right? God, it’s been like two weeks since I’ve seen this. 

Todd: Well, at first, he appears outside the window as an actual, like effect.

Tom Savini did all the effects. Right, 

Craig: Tom Savini did the effects, and that’s, you know, you don’t have to tell me much more than that about a movie. I’m, I’m down. He’s, he’s a math. So yeah, it’s a practical thing, but in part two, Tom Savini plays the creep and it’s very clearly, you know, a guy in a costume and in this it’s not, it’s more just like kind of a Halloween prop looking thing, which is what they went back to for the series that just came out on Shudder.

A couple of years ago, which maybe we’ll have time to talk about later. I don’t know, we’ll see. But then it we get the title, and it cuts into the first story, which is Father’s 

Todd: Day. This is one that, that stuck with me for some reason. And I think just because as a kid I was sort of obsessed with thriller.

And this is very much like, you know, a corpse coming out of the ground kind of story. You’re in this elegant, beautiful, old family mansion. Out in the middle of the woods, and all of these nasty, horrible people. 

Craig: Oh yeah, I have a family of snobs. 

Todd: And and Ed Harris is a bit of an outsider here. I think he’s the husband of one of the women in this.

I don’t know all their names. There’s like Bedelia, Sylvia, Ed Harris plays a guy named Hank, another dude named Richard. But anyway, they’re, they’re there and it’s Father’s Day and they are… Awaiting the arrival of this woman Bedelia, I believe it’s her name. Ants Bedelia, yeah. And she’s a bit of a loony but there’s a good reason for it.

She 

Craig: Pfft. that’s the thing. These stories are so simple. Like, there’s no nuance to them. No. Which is 

Todd: Which is fine. They jump right in. 

Craig: I mean, that’s what these Which I love. These comic book stories were like that. You tell an interesting story in three pages. There’s not a lot to it. But it’s That It’s still fun.

This 

Todd: is actually the thing, you know, that the HBO Tales from the Crypt series changed, I think, you know, like, like most anthology movies are like this, right? If the movie’s only an hour and a half, and you’re gonna be telling four or five stories, Right! Those stories are relatively short, you get to the point quickly, and so did the comics, you know, it’s the same deal.

There’d be like five stories in one… Thin little comic book. Yeah, yeah. You know, plus a page of letters to the editor and pages with ads and stuff in it. And so, you know, they had to be short and quick and to the point, which I think is part of their skill. And this movie’s no different. It just, it has to be that way, whereas, like, the Tales from the Crypt TV show, and I think also this is why the sequel, it takes a little more time with the story, so you get a little bit more.

I mean, like, maybe three more minutes, more time with each story, but still, you get a little more connection, a little more involved in each of the characters. They seem more real, and just not so… Here’s the plot. It’s more of a plot thing than a character thing. But yeah, so all these people, like you said, are stereotypical, terrible people, and the older woman, I guess it’s…

The other aunt or the grandmother, I don’t know, is retelling a story. Her name is 

Craig: Sylvia. Yeah. I think that she and Bedelia are sisters and their dad. Yeah, that’s it. Their dad, I have here, the father had had Bedelia’s lover killed. So Bedelia killed him. 

Todd: Oh, really? Yeah. 

Craig: I mean, if my notes are to be 

Todd: believed…

As many times as I have seen this movie, all of that escapes me. Maybe because I just revert to what I took in as a kid. And I was like, there’s this horrible father, who’s super old and senile, who’s a dick to everybody, and all he does is… pound his cane on the table and say, I want my cake. 

Craig: Oh my God.

That’s hilarious. 

Todd: And for a brief minute, I thought that that was played. I looked at it three times before I realized it was not played by one of our favorite actors. Yeah. Right. You know who I mean? I think 

Craig: so. The guy from creep show 

Todd: two. Is that what you’re talking about? Yeah. Could have sworn it was him, but then I went to the IMDB and no, it’s just a guy who looks a lot like him in that hair and makeup.

But, you know, 

Craig: it’s funny. The mom, Sylvia, is like the definition of like a wasp. I mean, she’s so waspy. Her name is Carrie Nye. And I was like, I know this woman and, and the thing that I’ve seen her in before, she was so waspy. What did I, and I finally figured it out. And this is so random, but sometimes I drop these little random nuggets and then people are like, Oh, I’ve seen that too.

Did you ever see the movie? Hello, again with Shelly Long. 

Todd: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. My mom loved that movie. I love that 

Craig: movie. I love Shelly Long, period. The end stop. But, like, that movie I loved so much. And this woman was in it playing a WASP y character just like she is in this one. She was, like, the hospital administrator’s wife or something.

And she broke the scandal, you know. Watch Hello Again. It’s a great flick. Anyway So Aunt Bedelia, Aunt Bedelia comes back, but like, and, she’s eccentric, I don’t know, she looks like, it’s so stereotypical that it’s difficult to describe, like one of those old lady characters who like wears everything she owns, like she, 

Todd: she’s got like, John Lennon glasses on, huh, and 

Craig: a hat and a shawl and like Tons of jewelry and like, it’s just ridiculous.

And she doesn’t even come inside. She just stumbles out to the dad’s grave and has colorful flashbacks about her horrible father, who on every father’s day would demand, where’s my cake, Bedelia? 

Todd: And eventually, she picks up a, a marble ashtray and whacks him over the head with it and kills him. Yeah. And then, you know, as this story is being told to Ed Harris character, Hank, because he’s new to the family apparently, the other guy, I think his name is Nathan, who’s played by John Lormer.

Picks up the actual well, he says this is it. It’s rumored to be this one, right? It’s an actual marble ashtray, which we will go on to notice in each of the stories thereafter Oh, no, you won’t. 

Craig: No, you won’t not unless you’ve read the trivia. No, Craig 

Todd: you noticed I did. Oh my god. I would have never done this.

I did not read the trivia, I have seen this movie so many times and this was the first time ever that I was like, oh wait. The ashtray’s there, next to Stephen King. And then, I started looking for it. Cuz I was like, does this appear in every single one? Yeah, yeah. I I 

Craig: knew about it and I had to look for it.

Cuz it’s blinking, you miss it. But yeah, it’s in that stupid ashtray. 

Todd: It’s in every Give me some credit for this one, man. I know, I I was really proud for noticing that. Well, you should 

Craig: be, cuz it it is You really have to look for it. But anyway, Crazy Aunt Bedelia is out at her father’s grave, and she’s drinking some whiskey, and she pours some whiskey on the grave.

Which causes the dad, apparently, to reanimate, and he comes out of the grave. Thriller style saying, where’s my cake, Bedelia? And then he kills Bedelia. I have it in my notes, but not before I have in my notes, Ed Harris and his wife dance like idiots.

Todd: It’s is that it’s that typical eighties dance party that every horror movie has, you know, kids, but 

Craig: funny, like I can’t imagine. I don’t remember. Maybe people dance like that in the eighties. I was. Maybe I was too young. I don’t know, but like, it just looks, they just look so stupid. I also imagine in my mind, you know, in the making of these movies that they probably haven’t secured.

Any music rights, so they, they’re just 

Todd: dancing to nothing, nothing 

Craig: like idiots and it’s hilarious, but he goes out to smoke or something and he’s in the spooky graveyard and he finds dead Aunt Bedelia 

Todd: and then he kind of falls down and then does nothing he’s, he lays 

Craig: there and watches while a headstone slowly Tips over and 

Todd: falls on him.

I don’t know why he didn’t move at all. I don’t know if he felt like if he moved he was gonna cause the headstone to fall faster or something. It’s pretty silly how he just sort of sits there and lets, lets that headstone fall on his head. But indeed it does. The bad guy stumbles off. 

Craig: And he looks great, by the way, like he’s totally zombified and, 

Todd: oh, really good.

Classic zombie, like, earthy, skeletal. 

Craig: Like, moss hanging off, 

Todd: like. Oh, I love this, love this. The 

Craig: make up and effects, the make up and effects in this movie are, are great. Yeah. It’s like, super fun, like, to, like, throwback and very much in keeping with the tone and style of the character. comics. Like it looks fantastic.

Super, super fun to watch. But zombie dad then, you know, gets in the house and breaks into the kitchen. He breaks waspy Sylvia’s neck. And then the next thing, like the kids, her kids are like looking for her and, and they go, they open a door like to the kitchen or whatever. And the zombie guy is standing there with Sylvia’s head.

Frosted like a cake on a 

Todd: platter. With candles and everything. I got 

Craig: my cake! I got my cake! And then… And then it goes like that, that, you know, freeze frames and turns into an animated cell, which moves us on 

Todd: to the next story. When I was a kid, this made an impression on me. I thought that was the creepiest, freakiest, most gruesome thing you could imagine.

The Father’s Day one? Yeah, and that last image of him with the head on the platter done up like a cake was yeah You know as an adult now, it’s it’s silly and it’s supposed to be you know, it’s it’s it’s the darkly humorous thing Stylistically, it’s probably 

Craig: I would say probably the best one and and and the one that’s the nicest to look at like it’s It looks great.

You mean, 

Todd: You mean, of the stories, you mean like cinematography 

Craig: and everything? Yeah, cinematography and, and just the style, it, because, you know, it’s so, it’s, it’s dark, you know, it’s a dark, spooky mansion and graveyard, and it, it, it looks really good. The rest are more based. kind of in a reality. I mean, this, this feels like they’re not as gothic, right?

Gothic. 

Todd: That’s, that’s it. I think what I like about this one is how varied the stories are because the second one, the lonesome death of Geordie Verrill, which stars Stephen King. And if I’m not mistaken, I think this is the most acting Stephen King has done in one movie, right? Like his biggest role. Yeah, it has to be.

Because usually he just pops in, he does these little cameos here and there. He’s a truck driver, he’s a priest or something. Gravedigger, right, yeah. Yeah, but in this, he is the only guy in this entire segment. And he is hamming it up. Like, 

Craig: constantly. in the back of my mind, I have this fear that somehow Stephen King will listen to this podcast and he’ll hear me say things about him that I wouldn’t want him to hear me say because I have, like, I admire this man so much.

Like, I just think he’s an absolute genius. And beyond that, like, he’s just a great guy. He’s a really good guy. Oh my God. He is a terrible actor. Just 

Todd: awful. He really is. 

Awful. 

Craig: Like, I get the, I get the novelty of putting him in cameos in his own movies, and I get the novelty of putting him in this role.

It’s hilarious, but he is just god awful. Yeah. 

Todd: I mean, I give him a pass here, just because. I mean, I, I think they were intending to go way over the top with this character. Yeah, he was 

Craig: directed this way. I, I fully believe. You know, and that’s another thing that we didn’t say before. Like, he and Romero just had such mutual admiration for one another that they just really wanted to work together.

Yeah. This was their opportunity to work together. And, and I really feel like… think that they, you know, really relished in this opportunity. And, and so here I think that they’re having fun. I think that Romero, you know, I, I read, you know, who knows if any of the things that we read are true, but I read that Romero directed him to play it like Wile E.

Coyote and he does like just, just big eyed and, and I mean, it is, it’s cartoonish and, and stupid, but. But funny. I thought it was 

Todd: funny. I liked this one. This one is tonally just so different from even all the others. It is so over the top silly. It’s your classic meteor strikes in the woods, and it just happens to be by this total redneck cabin.

It’s the blob, 

Craig: but moss. 

Todd: Yeah! It’s the blob but green. It’s so true! Clearly they’re trying hard not to be the blob. But that’s exactly what it is. He walks out there, he looks at it, and All that’s missing really is the dog, y’know? The dog’s not there. But, he touches this meteor, and then immediately he gets these visions of how much he can sell this meteor for to the Department of Meteors at the local university.

In this utterly cartoonish flashba sort of dream sequences that he has. Right. 

Craig: And when you say cartoonish, I I assume you mean much like… The style of the comics and I talked about this in, in addition, of course, to just being outlandish, but I talked about this when we did part two, there are parts of this movie that are shot so that it looks like a comic frame, right?

I mean, you, you feel when you’re watching this one in particular, you feel like you are reading one of those comics. It looks like it and, and the, the flash Not flashback, but like the, the fantasy sequences or the dream sequences, like it’s, it’s shot so that the camera is shooting from. A high angle, so it’s kind of 

Todd: looking down.

And it’s cantilevered, and yeah, different angles and things. Right. Yeah, 

Craig: you’re right. Right. And it looks, it looks very much like a cell from a comic, which I’m impressed. I mean, points for style. And, and those, those flashbacks, I keep saying flashbacks, they’re not flashbacks. The, the fantasy sequences where he’s You know, thinking about how much his life will change if he can sell this meteor for 200.

Todd: Yeah, 200. And, and 

Craig: then, and then in real life, in real time, when he tries to get it and he breaks it and it, it opens up and all this ooze comes out or whatever. And then there’s the whole fantasy sequence about him, you know, being. With his tail between his legs trying to sell this broken meteor and, and being so disappointed.

It’s cute. And, and that’s, like, Stephen King plays it cute. He plays this guy, well, his name’s Jordy Verrill, it’s right there in the title. But he’s just like this simple country bumpkin. Yeah, not very bright. Who seems to be like the, the last of his clan. You know, he’s all alone in this little shack. In the middle of nowhere.

Yeah. He’s likeable. I liked him. Oh, you done it now, Geordie Barrel! You num 

Todd: cat! Barrel luck’s always in. You spell that 

Craig: kind of luck B 

Todd: A D. 

Craig: Still, I got to try. And I felt bad when he started to get covered in sores and, and, and mold. 

Todd: As a kid, this one bothered me too, because one of the hallmarks really of these stories is generally speaking.

The bad guy gets what’s coming to them. Yeah, somebody will get murdered, but then the person who arranged the murder is gonna get an ironic comeuppance. And this story, this guy just did nothing wrong. He just stumbled across the meteor, he reached out and touched it, and then as he sits and watches TV, he’s sucking on his finger and he notices then that…

That there’s green growing on his finger, where he was, had touched a meteor. And he looks in the mirror and sees his tongue is turning green, where in, And then, of course, it just keeps going back to the outside. And we see that more and more green, There’s like a path of green growing from where the meteor was to his house.

And every time it cuts between what’s going on with him and the, what it looks like outside, it’s just, green is just overtaking everything. And it’s overtaking him. He doesn’t call the hospital. He initially calls the tries to call the hospital. But then he gets another one of his thoughts. Which is that if he goes there, the doctor’s gonna say, Oh, you’re gonna have to lose the fingers.

And he’s gonna cut off his fingers. And so, literally, the rest of the show is just watching him get more and more green until he’s a big mossy mess. Sadly, the last thing he does is shoot his head blow his head off with a shotgun. Yeah. It’s pretty dark. It is. And it’s and it’s 

Craig: sad. Like, you’re right. This one does very much break the mold.

It’s usually bad people. I’ve said this a bazillion times. Not only do you not feel bad for them, but you relish in it. You know, you relish in them getting what’s coming to them. And, and this guy is a likable empathetic character. And so to All but see him blow his head off with a shotgun. Yeah. But we, we, you know, here we’re talking about like, Oh, isn’t that sad?

No, it’s, it’s comedy. No. It’s goofy. It’s 

Todd: really ridiculous. Yeah. It’s goofy. And, and again, like the playing it like Wile E. Coyote tempers that, right? Yes. It makes it silly and ridiculous. You know, there’s a lot going on with the sound design in this one as well. The television is kind of on constantly, but of course we’re seeing different moments and so sometimes it’s a different show or whatever and so as Jordy’s walking around or we see what he’s doing, we can hear the soundtrack and oftentimes the dialogue of what’s being said in the show, either directly or indirectly, kind of references what’s happening in real life, and it’s just kind of cute.

I mean, it’s not That important, but it’s really smart. The way that that, that was all edited together and I really like that. And then the last bit of it, the ironic twist at the, at the end or whatever you want to call it, is just that we see that this green is going to be going way, way out and basically taking over the world because it’s going down the street.

All the way to Castle Rock. While the guy on the TV says something apropos. 

Craig: Yeah. The next one is called Something to Tide You Over, and for whatever reason, this is the one that stands out to me. Like, this is the one that I remember the most vividly, and maybe it’s because it stars Two of the most recognizable people for me.

Ted Danson… 

Todd: Mm hmm. It’s, it’s so… 

Craig: Like, it’s so weird to 

Todd: see Ted Danson… In a role like this? Yeah, I guess. 

Craig: Serious? I don’t know. Like, Ted Danson is the guy from Cheers to Me. That’s who he is. To everybody. 

Todd: Yeah. I don’t know. What else did he really do besides a 

Craig: little bit here and then he was in, then he was in like the three men and a baby movies.

Yeah. Like, in those movies. He was just that guy from Cheers. Ha 

Todd: ha ha ha ha ha. 

Craig: Exactly. Reading about this and reading about some other things, I’ve, I’ve heard that everything I read just paints Ted Danson to be just this great guy. Like this is really funny guy that everybody likes and everybody likes working with.

But anyway, here he’s, he’s young and in his swanky apartment and, and somebody knocks on the door and he opens it and it’s Leslie Nielsen. Mm. Who is also great. And. He, he plays against type. Sort of. At least based on what I know him from here. Like, the, the stuff that I know Leslie Nielsen from is the Naked Gun stuff.

Yeah. 

Todd: He’ll forever be known for doing these Frank Drebin comedic things. And he did a lot of comedic stuff later in life, but because my dad was obsessed with science fiction, old science fiction movies and things, I grew up watching Forbidden Planet. And he is One of the stars of Forbidden Planet, and he, in his younger years, and the guy was in his 70s or 80s when he was playing Frank Drebin, I mean, Yeah.

He had had a long career of playing the dashing leading man well before he jumped into being the older, comedic guy. Yeah. But yeah, but right here… He’s the older Leslie Nielsen, but he’s playing a very straight role. The older, 

Craig: but like, the older, younger. Yeah. Like, he’s probably what, in his like, 50s, maybe early 60s here, and he’s still…

One of the things, I mean, even in the Naked Gun movies when he’s older, this guy is really handsome. And… He’s insanely handsome. And has like… Like, this guy has star power, like, leading man power. And he, he’s not playing it funny here, even though, I mean, the tone of this piece is pretty dark and pretty serious.

I guess he was really, you know, like, he really hammed it up on set. Like, he was, you know, playing jokes and goofing around all the time. And, what, did he have, like, a, like a, fart machine or something that he would set off like right before Romero would say action and crack Ted Danson up. I like, I just, I have these fantasies in my mind of these guys just having such a great time making this.

But anyway, Ted Danson is having an affair with Leslie Nielsen’s wife and Leslie Nielsen knows about it. You know, you ought to be grateful to 

Todd: us. You know that? I mean, if you ever loved her, you don’t now. There won’t be any alimony, none of that community property shit. She just wants out. Well, I don’t know whether I ever loved you or not, Harry.

That doesn’t matter. The point is, I keep what is mine. No exception to that rule ever. No exceptions Harry. 

Craig: And so he plays this recording of his wife begging Ted Danson for help, and Leslie Nelson’s like, well, you have to come with me if you want to savor. And then he takes him to the beach.

Todd: He’s got a beach house, apparently. And there’s a hole there. And a shovel. And he says, I want you to kneel in that hole and cover yourself with sand. And he’s like, What are you talking about? I’m not gonna do that. And he says, Oh, yes you are. He pulls a gun on him. And he says, I promise you, And I’m a man of my word, Once you do this, you can see.

Her. Yeah. Oh, was it Becky? Yeah, yeah. So he begrudgingly does this, and ends up buried up to his neck, basically, in sand. Only his head has popped out. Of the sand. And in the meantime, Leslie Nielsen leaves him there, comes right back with a long cord. It’s so cute, this old 80s technology. Oh my god.

Anyway, it must be from his house, I guess. Like, way 

Craig: the hell up the street. His house, 

Todd: yeah, like a giant spool of cable so that he can Bring in a television, plop it down in front of him and turn it on. And it is this Becky. Also buried with her neck up to her neck in water, but she, the tide is coming in and so the water is starting to splash in her face and it’s looking pretty dangerous.

And he says, this isn’t a recording, I’m recording it for later, but this is a live feed and you can see if she’ll be able to make her way out of it. And so he leaves him there. And he says you know, if you’re lucky, you just need to hold your breath really, really well and maybe the tide will free you instead of bury you.

And then he leaves and eventually the tide comes in and it shorts out the TV and then Ted Danson holds on as much as he can. There’s this really awesome shot where the water comes over him fully and we see this underwater shot and He’s, I don’t know, God, it’s like at least 10 seconds of him struggling and obviously he’s going to drown.

That 

Craig: made me very anxious. I have no idea how they shot that because all you see is, you know, Ted Danson’s head above the sand. Underwater. But, but like the, the tide coming in and hitting his face. Face like, Oh yeah. Right. Like that. Gosh, it just, I mean, even putting myself in the shoes of an actor, that would make me so anxious, just filming that even knowing I was safe, just something, you know, the water rushing at your face and covering your mouth and nose, it would make me very, it made me think of 

Todd: waterboarding.

Yeah. It was worse, 

Craig: but Leslie Nielsen just gleefully watches them 

Todd: die. Yeah. From from the safety of his house where he’s got this almost James Bond villain. Yeah Pushes a button a painting slides up and he’s got six monitors there each trained a different security camera on his house and he just flips two of them so that he can watch both of Them go right because he’s got a camera set up on him as well.

Yeah 

Craig: Yeah. The last thing that Ted Danson says before he dies is I’m going to get you Richard. But then Leslie Nielsen goes out there. Richard is Leslie Nielsen, obviously. Leslie Nielsen goes out there the next day and Harry’s body is gone. And then he’s back at his bond pad. He hears a noise. He I’m like, Ooh, 

Todd: Leslie 

Craig: Nielsen getting

Todd: God, I was laughing so hard. Oh god, that I 

Craig: didn’t even think, like, I totally noticed it like, Oh, I guess he’s just not going to like wash his hair. And like, obviously, I’m sure that was done for cinema. Like don’t get your hair wet. Cause we’re going to, we’re going to have to do more than one take. And 

Todd: I’m not sure.

Leslie Nielsen looks is dashing with a mop of gray, 

Craig: like a drowned rat. Right? No. So here’s the noise we see. I think before he sees anything, we see like these lumbering shadows, but as it turns out. It is the Drowned Zombies of Harry and Becky and they look like drowned zombies. They’re like, they got seaweed and they’re all bloated and gross and it’s great makeup.

It’s pretty awesome 

Todd: actually. Yeah, it looks 

Craig: fantastic. And he’s trying to shoot them and Teddias says, You can’t shoot us, cause we’re already dead. Yeah. 

Todd: That was a little disappointing. Oh, I think it’s so funny, 

Craig: cause I can just picture it, I can picture the cell and that written down 

Todd: below. Well, I love the effect that when he shoots…

them. It’s like a burst of seawater comes pouring out. That’s funny, I forgot about that. I love that bit. Oh man, when I was a kid, that, that really sold the whole thing for 

Craig: me. And the very end of it is that we see him buried up to his neck in the sand and the tide coming in, but him saying, I can hold my breath for a really long time.

And apparently there was Like I don’t remember. I think they filmed it. Did you read this? There was an alternate ending to this one where when the zombies came, he called the cops and the cops came and of course didn’t find any zombies. And he’s like, but wait, I have it on tape. And he puts in the tapes, but it’s not tapes of the zombies.

It’s tapes of the people being murdered. And so they take him off to jail and it ended with him in the gas. Chamber saying I can hold my breath a really long time. 

Todd: That’s cute. 

Craig: It’s cute. I like this. I prefer this. This is simpler. I like the visual of people being buried up to their neck in sand. 

Todd: It’s more fun.

Ted

Danson actually talked about how they filmed him underwater because I was super curious about that. And they just had a little aquarium tank. And a yoke, you know, they just put this over his head, basically. And the top of this yoke, you know, is filled with sand or whatever. He’s in a wetsuit. And then they just filled it up with water, and they had a guy with a breathing tube.

Reach it down in there, and then, you know, call action. Pull the tube out. And then he could do as much as he could stand. of being underwater. That would still feel really… I know! 

Craig: I love, I, I love, I love the water. I, I love being in the water, but being out of control, you know, being, your 

Todd: life in someone else’s hands.

Yeah, 

Craig: put your, yeah, I was gonna say at the mercy of, but yeah, putting your life in somebody else’s hands, that would make me very nervous. 

Todd: Yeah. For sure. Well, I think the only thing that would make me feel good is, I’m pretty sure even if you kneeled down and pulled the sand in around you, you could probably free yourself pretty frickin easily from that sand.

Yeah. Your arms are not deep enough in this sand for you to not be able to pull them up and… I don’t know. 

Craig: Sand’s pretty heavy. I don’t know. Anyway, alright, the next one, I would guess, is maybe the most famous of these. Like, I feel like, when people talk about this movie, this is the one they talk about. Mm hmm.

It’s 

Todd: called The Crate. Oh, God. This was my favorite one, up until today. I saw it again today, like, again, for years. This one was my favorite one, and it’s not anymore. But it’s a close second. Why? Oh, I love it. Don’t get me wrong. I love it. But actually, you’re gonna laugh at me. I thought the last story just spoke to me a little better now as an adult.

Oh my god. Than than this one. And as a kid, I thought the last story was, like, dumb. I still 

Craig: think it. I mean, it’s not, it’s not dumb. It’s just boring. But no, talk about, talk about the 

Todd: crate. Oh, God. This Adrienne Barbeau is the most annoying, brash woman possible, and she’s got this husband who is played by Hal Holbrook.

Yes, God. And he, he barely talks because he can’t get a word in edgewise. And he’s long ago, stopped trying. He’s clearly this sort of loveless marriage and they are university professors and they’re having a little party at this university grounds or whatnot. And the guy who’s playing the other professor is Fritz Weaver, who was the university professor and re animator.

Right. Oh gosh, probably, I don’t know. Yeah anyway, they’re having this chat, and so you kind of get to see her character, and obviously the takeaway here is that her character is really, really mean and annoying. She embarrasses him at the party, she embarrasses everybody else, everybody’s embarrassed for him.

And if Dex Stanley hadn’t had his teeth capped, he’d have been out on his ass years ago. So when Parker told me that I was out of line, I told him he oughta get laid. I mean, Parker, I said. If you just have your ashes hauled, you wouldn’t have to spend all this time playing Emily Vanderbilt. Or, Emily Van Buren.

Whoever that etiquette crotch is. And he is having fantasies throughout this segment of killing her, but then he snaps to reality again. It’s kind of cute. It’s one of those fake out moments, you know, where she’s putting him down and he whips out a gun and he shoots her in the forehead and you’re like, holy shit, and then you realize it’s his fantasy.

In the meantime, while this is going on, there’s a night watchman, or janitor I should say, inside the university who is cleaning up and is flipping a coin, and it falls and rolls underneath this stairwell that’s kind of caged up, like the under part of the stairwell. And so he kind of pries this cage up and sees that there’s a crate inside.

That’s, like, dated from 1850 something or 60 something. And it says, Arctic Expedition on it, shipped to such and such university. It’s chained up, and it’s nailed up, and like, I mean, it’s a find, right? Yeah, 

Craig: I think that it said, shipped to the Arctic, care of somebody. Carpenter, which, which was, which was a nod to John Carpenter’s The Thing, and John Carpenter was married to Adrienne Barbeau 

Todd: at this time.

Oh! I didn’t realize that. 

Craig: Yes. And I want you to carry on, but I just wanted to interject to say that Adrienne Barbeau is fantastic in this segment. She’s 

Todd: always fantastic. She is so good. Adrienne Barbeau, you know, it’s, it’s like, it’s her as you hadn’t really seen her, right? Like, she’s just annoying.

Usually she’s kind of hot and bombshell y and sexy and stuff. And here, she is annoying and crass. And she’s great at it. Oh, she’s 

Craig: so good. I just thought she was fantastic. Shrew isn’t the right word because she’s, she’s obnoxious. She’s loud. I, I think the reason that it’s so effective is because you believe this is a person that you would meet.

Who is so oblivious. To how obnoxious she, I mean, like she thinks she’s hilarious. She thinks that everybody is amused by her, humiliating her husband all the time. Mm-hmm. , like, she’s just completely unaware of. The fact that everybody else is viewing her in such a negative way, and she just totally goes for it.

I thought she was great. And Hal Holbrook is great. It’s weird to see, like, I don’t even know. I think Hal Holbrook just kind of has this southern gentility that I’m surprised to see him in a movie like that. Like, why aren’t you like in Gone with the Wind? What are you doing 

Todd: in this movie? What are you doing in this silly horror movie?

But he’s 

Craig: good, I mean, and he does a good job playing the beaten down 

Todd: husband. I mean, they’re obviously cartoonish versions of them, but I know people who are just two steps away from this. I know couples like this. It’s really believable that this guy is just, I mean, they’ve probably been married for decades.

Right. You know, they’re just in a rut, and he’s about had it with her, and everybody kinda knows it, but what are you gonna do? You know? Divorce? Who’s gonna bother to do that? Not in the movies! We don’t divorce in the movies. We kill each other. Right. 

Craig: So it’s ve it’s convenient for him that this janitor finds this crate underneath the staircase.

that has a century year old monster. Right. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 

Todd: who really just wants to go back to his crate. Which is the funny thing about it. I know. Leave that guy alone, he was fine! 

Craig: He wasn’t bothering anybody. He was just napping. 

Todd: Come on! The janitor calls Dexter. Not Henry, but the other guy. Who is…

Flirting a little bit with some of his students at the party, which I thought was a little funny. This very old, very old guy! Flirting with these cute little girls who seem to be coming on to him, which was kind of funny. Anyway, he goes and and they together pull out the crate. Him and the janitor, and they start to open it up.

It’s real tense, I just It’s 

Craig: tense, but it was also like painfully slow. Like, it does not take this long to open a crate. Like, just, just do it. Like, like, quit screwing around. Just do it. 

Todd: Right. They pry it open by like a half an inch, and then they close it again, so that they can pop the nails up and pry up every nail from it.

Like, yeah, it’s hilarious. But… I just love the way this is structured, because you know there’s gonna be something bad in this crate. And there is indeed something bad in this crate. There’s they look inside, they can see the monster’s eyes. The janitor reaches his arm inside the crate before the top is even completely open.

And immediately something’s chomping on his arm, which he falls on the floor, and the crate kind of tips over on the table with him, so it’s… It’s still, like, the lid’s not off of it yet, but it’s kind of ajar. And that’s facing the, the ground, whereas he’s kind of sitting here with his arm up in it.

Well, Dexter looks on with horror as this guy gets his arm gets chomped on, and he gets pulled up into the crate and eaten by this monster. Now, You know, the physics of all this, we don’t even need to worry about, I mean. Even somebody mentions, I think later Henry mentions, Does the monster really eat all those guys?

Where do they go? I don’t know. So he gets eaten, so he is freaked out by this. And he runs out and there’s a student in the dark and… Callway of this closed building who happens to be wandering by who he grabs and the student’s like, oh Maybe you’re a little crazy And and maybe we don’t want to call the campus police just yet while you’re crazy so I’m gonna go down there and investigate too and he sees the smears of blood and They see that the crate is back underneath the staircase And so the student goes in to look at the crate, but the monster’s not in the crate He’s next to the crate and he leaps out and he gets the student as well Yeah, it’s been 

Craig: so long that I frankly don’t remember but I have in my notes fun effects like so the effects The effects must have been good here.

I I do remember it like lots of blood and a lone foot

Todd: The student wanted to get that because the the sneaker or whatever the janitors was still there. It was the only thing left of him sitting outside the crate. And he’s like, I just want to get this so that we could measure the bite marks. 

Craig: Well, and, and maybe, maybe this is, maybe I have fun effects because maybe this is the first time that we get a good look at the monster who they on set playfully nicknamed fluffy.

And it, it, it’s kind of got. Baboonish look to it, but like a monstrous baboon designed by Tom Savini. This was the first fully animatronic thing that Savini had ever made. And I really, I like it. Like in hindsight, like from a 2023 perspective, it’s. Potentially a little bit quaint, but it’s so, I want to say cute, but I don’t mean that in a derogatory way.

Like it’s a, it’s a fun little monster and you know, it rips 

Todd: people apart. It’s like a 50 style Arctic monster. It’s just been amped up slightly, you know, for the 80s, I think. It’s got these ra just a long line of razor sharp teeth. Yeah. You don’t get really long, lingering shots of it, either. It’s all quite quick.

No, no, it’s quick. And so that helps. But I like it. 

Craig: It’s, it’s, it’s cool. Like, it lives in a box. Yeah. It’s not like, you know, this huge monster. It’s something that can fit in a 3×3. Crate, but it’s funny. I, I liked it. Anyway, it kills Charlie and then professor num, number two runs off to Henry and tells him about it and like a light bulb goes off over Henry’s head.

So he drugs professor number two and then leaves a note for Wilma. That’s like professor number two got into some trouble and I’m trying to clean up after him. Meet me at the university. Of course, she’s all like, Oh, my stupid husband who can never do anything by himself. I guess I have to do everything.

But, you know, she’s like proud of herself for it. Like patting herself on the back. Oh, 

Todd: and he also makes it very salacious. Like he, you know, he got in trouble with some student. Now she’s like crying and you’re really good at this. You can help. So she’s also likes, you know, loves the scandal of it all.

Craig: Right, right, right, right. And so he lures her there. He tells her that this girl. Is crying under the stairs. It’s such a weird scene because she is more concerned about berating him. Like, she doesn’t seem to be particularly concerned about this girl. Or what has happened to her, or whatever. Of course, it’s all a big ruse.

And he pushes her under there and chains her to the crate. At which point, she continues to berate him for like, A minute. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a little… Just screaming at him. 

Todd: It gets a little kooky here, a little unbelievable, a little what’s the word I’m looking for? Contrived. Like, he pushes her under there, you know, she can see there’s no girl there, but she doesn’t seem to care.

She just wants to yell at him, and she tells him everything from, you know, you’re worthless, you can’t do anything, to you can’t even get it up in bed. Oh, right, yeah. And then, boom, jump scare, which did get me. In the middle of berating him, the monster springs out of the crate behind her, and takes her in.

He very gingerly, in a bit of a tense scene as well, comes back and manages to chain the crate up. Get the locks back around the chains. Pull the crate out into his car and take it to a ravine that has, I guess, a pool of water at the bottom of it. And toss it off the ravine. Presumably drowning the monster inside the crate.

And leaving no trace of any of these bodies. So, I can keep a secret if you can, professor. And we’ll just play chess every day for the rest of our lives. But the last shot is of the monster underneath the water. And apparently he can breathe underwater because you see these eyes. Well, I was glad. 

Craig: He, I didn’t want the 

Todd: monster to die.

I didn’t either, poor little guy. Just wanted to be in his crate. Now he doesn’t even have a crate to be in. Jeez. 

Craig: Jerks. Yeah, and then it comes to the last one, and you’re gonna have to explain to me the appeal of this one, because I don’t get it. It’s just one of the grandpas from National Lampoon’s…

Christmas vacation in his sterile, kind of futuristic apartment and he hates bugs and then his house is infested with bugs. That’s it. 

Todd: He’s a Howard Hughes guy. You know, Howard Hughes famously kind of like lived out the rest of his days in a penthouse apartment, complete germaphobe, letting his fingernails grow long, wouldn’t let anybody touch him or anything like that, and kind of went a little nuts, right?

And this is basically that guy. He’s in this completely pure isle, white, sterile penthouse apartment with almost no furniture, but a lot of 80s futuristic stuff where… You know, he can talk to people on his phone on different lines and there’s an intercom there. There’s a little vacuum machine that every time he blows his nose or uses a napkin or whatever, he can just put it in this little hole, push a button, and it gets sucked away.

But, he found a bug, a big cockroach, and he has a little spray can, and he’s obsessed with getting the bugs out of his apartment. In the meantime, he’s also in the midst of having these conversations with people on the phone, and you realize he’s like a major douche. Like an evil Elon Musk, in a way. He’s talking about his stock prices and what he did there, and then there’s a man who died on one of his boards and he’s actually, he killed himself because of him somehow, and he’s actually pretty thrilled about it because then, you know, he’s kind of out of the way, and then his widow calls him and berates him for it, and he kind of taunts her, and is mean and nasty to her as well.

In the meantime, he’s walking around and these bugs are just showing up everywhere, and the reason I like this so much… I don’t know, I like that, like, slightly, like, classist thing about this. This guy is a arrogant, corporate, millionaire, billionaire dude who is holding himself up away from the world while he’s continuing to enact his mayhem down below on all these poor people.

Right. He’s afraid of the bugs, and the bugs are gonna do him in at the end. And I don’t know, I just, number one, I like that. And I think I appreciate that more as an adult than as I did as a kid. The other thing I thought… Was it from a pacing perspective? I thought this was the most masterfully paced and edited segment in the whole bit.

Oh, that’s hilarious because 

Craig: I have like a quarter of a page of notes on this segment. I remember nothing about it I have no idea what my notes mean because I remember nothing about it. But the one note that I can understand is, segments should have been much shorter. No! 

Todd: To be honest with you, like, I felt, you know, you had said earlier, oh, these things blow right through you.

I kind of felt that all of the ones up to this one were a little plotting. Like, if they had been done today, I think that shots would have been faster, things would have been a little more tight and we wouldn’t have dwelled so much in certain aspects that, you know, I thought it was a sort of old fashioned building of suspense, like, we do a little bit our job nowadays of it.

But this one, I felt just move, flew right along by. And it just gets you with this sterile white environment, him doing the thing with the bugs, the stuff that he’s talking about with these people on the machine, it’s like two different stories kind of playing out simultaneously. Him with the bugs and what he’s been doing with these people in the business world and how they’re reacting.

I don’t know man, I just, I just really liked it and I, and I think bugs are creepy. Yeah. And they’re real and this could theoretically happen whereas none of the other stuff could theoretically happen and it is so disgusting. Oh my god, 

Craig: I suppose it could happen that Bazillions of cockroaches could infest your house all at once and kill you.

I suppose that could 

Todd: happen Yeah, that could happen. What can’t happen is people coming out of the grave, you know Reanimated monsters in a crate for over 200 years. No, I think this one 

Craig: is Comes closer than any of the others to having the tiniest shred of social commentary. Like, here’s this rich, powerful guy who sits up in his pristine palace in the sky and looks down upon the bugs of society.

Yeah. 

Todd: It’s ham fisted, but it is nonetheless, you know, I liked that social commentary aspect. And I thought it was kind of prescient, honestly, because aren’t we all kind of bitching about this right now? So yeah, I liked seeing him get what was coming to him, and I thought this was the most gruesome of all of them.

I have 

Craig: that. That’s my last note. Disgusting bug body shot. What is it? Did they just, like, eat him? 

Todd: No, like, he kind of collapses. It’s like the bugs are getting into his clothes, and it looks like they’re maybe getting into his mouth. Ew. And he collapses as the room is literally filling up with bugs.

Almost like a pool will fill up with water. And he is laying down on the ground, and suddenly the bugs, like, you see, like, a little bladder effect in his, in his forehead. You see some bugs start to crawl out of his mouth. And then you see his chest expand. And you literally see from under his skin, the bugs bursting out.

Just en masse, and cooing everywhere. And it looks absolutely disgusting. It’s, it’s the most gruesome thing that we’ve seen so far. Even the crate Thing which had the potential to be really gory and had these close up scenes these people sort of getting eaten The reality is once that color washes over all of it And I think they deliberately made the blood a little bit more watery or something.

So it almost didn’t even show It’s just like something wet like those scenes They they’re not as gory as most movies that we watch are right, but this this sequence was In your face, bugs bursting out of someone’s skin. That was gross. 

Craig: I found it fascinating that literally the bugs were the most expensive thing on this movie.

Right? The biggest part of the budget went to these Roaches. Hundreds of thousands of roaches at like 50 cents a pop or something like that? That’s 

Todd: nuts. 

Craig: Ridiculous! Crazy! Hundreds, I think over 100, 000 spent on roaches. 

Todd: Wild! I loved this one. Again, I liked all the other ones as much, and I told you before the crate was…

My favorite one, and still is a, is a close second, but I think I’m just coming at things from a different angle nowadays, and I just really appreciated the pacing and the filmmaking and the everything about this last one. I thought it was the most skillfully done, even though it was definitely… the simplest.

All right. To be 

Craig: fair, in case anybody’s interested in backstory, Todd sent me this movie and I watched it at, but it cut off right before this last segment. And so you then sent me the last segment later, but I watched it like in the middle of the night. Like I woke up in the middle of the night and I was, I was You know, I couldn’t sleep, so I was like, Well, I’ll just knock out that segment really quick.

And so I just, like, three in the morning, I just sat in my living room and watched it, and then went back to bed. So, I, I just, I have no memory of it.

Nor do I really have any memory of the end cap. What I have is We’re back to Billy’s house. Garbage men see the comic that the dad had thrown away in the trash. They see it and they see an ad for a voodoo doll. 

Todd: Dad wakes up in the morning and he’s downstairs having breakfast. He’s like, Oh man, I had a hard time sleeping last night.

I got this stiff neck. And she’s like, Oh really? That’s, that’s strange. And then he goes, Ah, like there’s another wincing pain. And you see Billy upstairs with this. Maniacal smile and these wide eyes grinning from ear to ear as he is stabbing this voodoo doll over and over and his dad is like, in pain. I don’t know, you know, if he kills him, who knows?

I don’t know, it’s pretty dark. Dark as hell. As a kid, that stood out to me as well. How could this kid do this to his dad, you know? Especially, he’s a monster, you know, he’s so terrible, but… His dad was also a dick. Yeah, he was. I, I mean, I love this movie. I like it more than Creepshow 2, just because the variety of stories, I like the tone of it, I like the goofiness, the intentional goofiness of it.

It’s just got all these stars. It’s just star studded. And that’s fun, too. I mean, this super young Ed Harris, and this… This, this just striking Ted Danson and Leslie Nielsen, like, it’s just awesome. I love Creepshow 2. I love it. I also, I saw it in high school for the first time, and I had the tape, and my friends and I would also watch that religiously.

But I just, I thought like, bang for the buck, I thought the first Creepshow resonated with me a little bit more. It’s good. I was real happy to revisit it, yeah. It’s 

Craig: a good movie. And it’s, it’s, it’s fun to watch two guys who, you know, really are icons of the genre playing together. That’s just so much fun, like Romero and Stephen King just playing and having a good time.

And I think commercially this is the most successful anthology film ever. You know, it’s not like it’s pioneered the genre, but I think In the 80s, it kind of revived the genre a little bit. And so then of course we got Creepshow 2, and we got Cat’s Eye, and Tales from the Dark Side. And we’ve talked about a bunch of times how much we enjoy these anthology films.

And I honestly think that I just like Part 2 better because I saw it first, and I was young, and it made an impression on me. But this, this is a really good movie. And this, this is required reading. 

Todd: For the court. Yeah.

The two guys in a chainsaw film studies class have this. This is in there somewhere, for sure. Well thank you again for listening to another episode, if you enjoyed it please share it with a friend. You can find us online just by googling Two Guys in a Chainsaw Podcast, find us in our social media pages or our website, just leave us a note, let us know what you thought of this episode and what you would like us to do in the future.

Our Patreon is patreon. com slash. Chainsaw Podcast. Please consider supporting us there. We put out mini sodes every month. We put out written reviews. We have lots of great behind the scenes chatter. We also release the unedited versions of our phone calls to our patrons. And give them a hand in picking which of the requests that we get.

That we’ll actually do in a future episode. So patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. And I just want to thank all of our patrons out there for their support, as well as anyone who’s listening to this. The best thing you can do to support us really is to share this and let other people know that you enjoy this podcast and get us some more listeners until next time I am Todd and I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Our tribute to Treat Williams is the first-ever buddy cop action zombie comedy horror we’ve done on the podcast. Will it be the last? Surely, none of the others could compare to this insanely fun romp that took us all the way back to the hyper-masculine, ultra-violent 80’s action flicks we grew up with.

Dead Heat (1988)

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Here we are catching up, I think, on our tribute episodes. Last week we did Warlock, which was our tribute to Julian Sands. Also, last month, back in June actually, Treat Williams, veteran star of stage, screen, and movies and TV.

Died in a motorcycle accident at the age of 71. And this movie was one that’s been on my list for a while. Here on the podcast, we like to do horror comedies, we like to do horror kids movies. Not just the dirty, gory, scary stuff. This movie, you know, every now and then a movie comes along that you just, that just entirely went by you and escaped you, and you’re like, you watch it, and you’re like, where has this movie been my whole life?

Like, this movie came out in 1988. It’s called Dead Heat, and it will go down as the first ever buddy cop action zombie horror comedy that we’ve done on the show. Mm hmm. Um, and it stars Treat Williams. in the prime of his youth, and Joe Piscopo. I don’t know, Craig, I had never seen this before. I was vaguely aware of it, more in adulthood than anything else, and it’s always been like a little checklist thing, like, oh, you know what, I’m gonna come back to that.

Looks like it could be entertaining, but why did I not grow up with this movie, was my big question. And so I thought, oh, this must have been like some obscure little thing, you know, kind of low budget thing that completely belly flopped in the box office. I don’t know. I’m not going to say anymore about it until I hear your opinion.

Craig: You liked it. 

Todd: Yeah,

I liked it. Of I was gritting from ear to ear with this movie. And, uh, and yeah, anyway. So, so, this is our tribute to Treat Williams. Craig, uh, had you seen this movie 

Craig: before? No, uh, but you’re right. I don’t know why. There’s no good reason why I There’s no good reason! I rem I vividly remember seeing it on the video store shelves, and it’s a really it’s a funny picture of the two guys, uh, Treat Williams and Joe Piscopo, like, kinda looking back over their shoulders at ya, and I think That I didn’t pick it up because Joe Piscopo looks so stupid and I I thought God this movie must be so Stupid if this is the guy that they’re putting on the cover 

Todd: Let’s come back to Treat Williams in a second.

I just want to talk about Joe Piscopo. What happened to that guy? I don’t even like Who? 

Craig: Why do I, why does Joe Piscopo live in my head? Why do I know who this man is? I know. Well, 

Todd: I don’t know if you, uh, we, I think one of my cousins or somebody taped one of his TV specials, like the Joe Piscopo TV special off and it was in regular rotation for us.

We thought it was hilarious. That was back in 87 or 86 or whatever. But he was on Saturday Night Live in 1980. And I think that year, they got rid of everyone on the cast except for him and 

Craig: Eddie Murphy. Well, they got rid of, they were totally doing a whole new cast, and he and Eddie Murphy were a part of the new cast, and the following season, they were the only two that they kept.

That 

Todd: survived, right. They were the only two who could cut it, that’s right. I mean, he was on Saturday Night Live for quite a while, he had these comedy specials, at least two, like one of those HBO comedy specials, back when we didn’t have HBO, and it was a treat to be able to see an HBO comedy special, it ended up on VHS, and I just remember, like, Joe Piscopo, Joe Piscopo, kind of this rap intro, and this guy comes out, he’s this comedian, he’s kind of got a bodybuilder face, builder physique and whatnot and then like he just kind of disappeared i know that he had um thyroid cancer for a while but that was before this movie yeah and he 

Craig: just was it i don’t know yeah he took a break yeah i don’t know either i feel like i had it in my mind that he did Infomercials, but I don’t think that that’s a real thing.

I think that’s something that I just created in my head. I’m not sure. I don’t know. Maybe I think he did commercials. I think he did beer commercials in the eighties or nineties. I don’t know that what, when it comes down to it, like he’s this goofy looking like New Jersey bodybuilder, Jerry curl looking kind of guy, but exactly, but.

He’s endearing. He’s like, he’s, he’s a, he’s a fun guy. 

Todd: I mean, I mean, he cut his teeth at Saturday Night Live and proved himself there. I mean, he’s funny, you know, uh, this movie is different story, but I’m sorry. I’m actually going to be kind of gushing about this movie, even though I knew you would like 

Craig: it.

I knew you would like it. Of course. This I, uh, look, here’s the thing. Like, you didn’t? Uh, not really. Like, looking back on it now, like, thinking about it, getting ready to talk about it, I’m like, it’s fine. Like, it’s cute. I get what it’s going for. I, uh, I didn’t really enjoy it very much. And I was wracking my brain.

Because I was like, why? Why don’t, why don’t I like this? Yeah. This, this. Is a straight dude movie. That’s, I, I think that’s what it is. Like, I think straight dudes would be really into this movie. Cause it’s totally like a, uh, like a, Hey, uh, I’m a straight guy. Kind of.

Todd: Wow, way to paint me with a straight guy brush. 

Craig: I, I told, like, this was a revelation to me. And I, I said that same thing out loud last night. night to Alan, he’s like, is that how straight guys sound? And I was like, well, to me,

Todd: well, I think the thing that I love about it so much is eighties action movies. They just have a certain feel and they had a certain sensibility and mentality about them. And that might be a little bit of what you’re talking about, right? It’s just like Testosterone on display. Yeah, totally. As I was watching this, I realized, like, we don’t make action movies like this anymore.

Craig: Not really. Well, like Bad Boys. 

Todd: That’s an old movie now, dude. But 

Craig: yeah, I mean, uh, aren’t they still making them like there’s one in production right now, . There’s like 

Todd: four of ’em. Yeah. I thought there were only two. No, there’s, well, goes to show how much I could , but like this movie Joe Piscopo, I, I watched like a Making of Quit a short little Making of Doc that was up on YouTube and you know, they were, did some behind the scenes stuff and Joe Piscopo was being interviewed and he said this is a cross between Robocop.

Lethal Weapon and Night of the Living Dead. It’s got all three elements in there. And I was like, Yeah, RoboCop and Lethal Weapon, absolutely quintessential 80s action movies in every sense of the word. Totally. The writer of this movie is Terry Black, who is the brother of Shane Black. And Shane Black wrote Lethal Weapon.

And Lethal Weapon came out just the year before this. So it’s right there in that sweet spot. And what it’s doing is it’s taking that and it’s It’s taking it to a crazy degree, and it’s being over the top goofy with it. There are some scenes in here I can’t wait to talk about, because how just silly they are.

But, the movie knows it’s silly, you know? It’s a comedy that’s also trying to be over the top goofy, and in that, it succeeds. The jokes, they don’t always land. The partnership between Joe Piscopo and Treat Williams, sadly, it has no heart. I think. 

Craig: Oh, I thought they were hilarious together. They were 

Todd: funny together, but there are no, like, emotional moments in this.

Where it’s cause they’re straight! 

Craig: There’s no tension! They’re just a couple of straight guys!

Todd: You know what, Craig? Straight guys have feelings too! They do? What?! 

Craig: My worldview is shattered! 

Todd: But, I didn’t cry at all during this movie. But, you know, Lethal Weapon, come on. Like, the Danny Glover and Mel Gibson characters in that movie. There’s, you know, there’s just like… I get it. Yeah, and I like those.

This movie has none of it. 

Craig: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think that’s true at all. I think they’re funny. I think they’re funny. 

Todd: I didn’t say they’re not funny. I, 

Craig: I thought they, like, the whole thing is so silly that you can’t really say there’s like a straight man. But, but if there is, it’s Street Williams.

Street Williams is like the straight man. And then, like, he’s like the, you know, the very polished, good looking, well dressed. hair that I would, like, shoot a person in the face for. Holy 

Todd: crap! His hair! During that scene where, especially that scene where he’s, like, 

Craig: turned into a zombie. Where hair. Like, there’s a whole scene where he brushes his hair for, like, a half a minute.

Todd: It was fascinating. Oh 

Craig: my god, I would shoot somebody in the face to have hair like that. It’s amazing. 

Todd: To be honest with you, as a straight man, I’ve never seen any person in a movie before and been like, God, that hair is amazing. Until this day, three hours ago, I could have watched him comb his hair for like another three minutes.

Craig: I was so jealous. 

Todd: I almost cried when it looked like it was starting to come out. I was like, 

Craig: Oh, I know, but like, it wasn’t even, like, I just kind of imagined that every time that Tree Williams brushed his hair, that much came out, just because there was, like, there’s so much of it.

Todd: He’s got another five years of brushing his hair before it’s all good. He’s 

Craig: like this, he’s like the straight laced one. And then Joe Biscopo is like, you know, like the Jersey cop. Who’s always like, he’s crackin jokes and like, hittin on the ladies 

Todd: and It’s like a parody. 

Craig: Oh my god. I, I thought their chemistry was, was kind of funny.

And, it seemed to me like they were having a good time. Like, I can only imagine behind the scenes. It seemed like they were having a really fun time making this dumb movie. Oh yeah. Let’s, let’s talk about Treat Williams real quick since this is his… Uh, tribute album. Aside from having maybe the most magnificent hair I’ve ever seen, he is just like, he’s really handsome and I think that there are some people, like, let’s just face it, being incredibly attractive is a huge advantage in life and, uh, I think that he is somebody who was kind of interested in entertainment, but more so kind of fell into it because he was incredibly good looking and then it also turned out That he’s very talented and he, he did tons of movie, like, like you said, uh, stage television movies, did tons of stuff.

Yeah, I don’t, I think he had a big TV show in the late nineties, early aughts, something like that, something like Everwood or something. Some show that I never watched, some like angsty teen drama or something that he was in. But what I remember him from was the film version of. The musical hair. Yes. Have, have you seen it?

Todd: Oh gosh. So long ago. 

Craig: It’s fantastic. And he is absolutely fantastic in it. And, uh, apart from being just a really, really good looking guy. And I say that, but it’s not just that he’s physically attractive, which he is, but he’s just also endearing. He’s got kind of a soft spoken nature and, and really kind eyes.

And he’s, he’s a very appealing person. And then, uh, in that. movie in, in hair, he acts and he sings and he has a beautiful voice. He has the voice of an angel. And so that’s, I am a huge fan of his. I was not terribly surprised to hear that he’d passed because lots of the people that I grew up watching on screen are passing because I’m getting old and so are they.

So I wasn’t terribly. surprised but I was surprised to hear that it’s not like he died it was a motorcycle accident yeah good for you bro like get out there on your motorcycle and you’re 70 

Todd: right and it was another car that turned into his lane he couldn’t move fast it’s not like he was reckless or anything or fell asleep on his motorcycle I mean that’s just really shitty it’s tragic no 

Craig: it’s tragic and I I feel for his family you know he has Um, it’s, it’s terribly sad, but, uh, a cool, cool guy and so handsome in this movie.

Like that’s, I don’t know, he’s so handsome. Um, like so handsome to the point where… Like, he dies. And then he’s like, a zombie. And he’s still handsome. And they’ll start, well, they’ll start to decay him. And then they’re like, no, no, he’s too handsome.

And then he’ll just look normal for a while. And they’re like, wait, wait, wait, he’s a zombie. Put some makeup on him. And then there’ll be a scene where he’s like, in like, this gross makeup. And they’re like, no, wait, wait, he’s too handsome. Take 

Todd: it off. They couldn’t commit to the gradual decay. They delayed the decay as long as possible.

It’s hilarious. It’s 

Craig: hilarious. The other thing that’s hilarious about this movie is the writing. This is one of the funniest written movies that I have ever seen. Like, it opens up on like a cityscape of what, are they in Los Angeles? I never could figure it out. 

Todd: I never figured it out, no. I want to say Los Angeles.

Uh, 

Craig: cityscape, and then immediately we cut to these robbers in a car, and they put on these weird masks that are made for robbers, like, because they don’t serve any other function except to like… 

Todd: They probably crafted them themselves. Oh, well. Got them from a kink shop or something like that. I can see another reason why you might want a mask like that, that leaves the whole lower part of your face exposed, but uh…

Ew. Let’s not get into that. Not you, I just said one. Straight guys. One.

Don’t kink shame me. Okay, 

Craig: no, sorry, so these robbers. Now, like, they just look like goons, which I thought was funny. But then I also thought, why are they filthy dirty? Like, their faces, I was like, what is happening? Why have they not bathed in years? Like, what is happening? 

Todd: They are super… Super violent, super over the top, they go and they’re 

Craig: yelling at each other.

Their they break into this, this jewelry store, and they’re pointing, like, They have machine guns, like Tommy 

Todd: guns. Everyone in here has an Uzi. 

Craig: It’s like we’re in, like, Dick Tracy or something. Like, they’ve got, like, these big ol Tommy guns, like, Ah, getcha! Um, but they, they break into this jewelry store, And they, like, they tell a lady to put her purse on the counter, And they’re, like, you know, demanding, The jewels or something, but one of them looks at this old lady and points his machine gun at her and says, Come on, you want to be dead?

There’s a chance of a lifetime. And then the other one tells somebody else hug the rug. Oh my god, some of the funniest lines and Joe Piscopo has some lines in here. I couldn’t believe that anybody could deliver or receive with a straight face. But, I don’t know if that was, like, like they were trying to be funny, or it’s just so bad it’s funny.

But either way, hilarious. 

Todd: I think, for me, it’s so bad it’s funny. Most of his lines were total groaners. I would say about a third of them I saw coming from a mile away. I’m like, oh. He’s gonna make a crack about this. And, in the one sense, like, they had to do this, because this is, this is what they’re doing, right?

But it’s not really a parody of this genre. It is a movie in this buddy cop action genre. And most of them are better written. Honestly, I think it has a lot to do with Piscopo’s delivery. I don’t know if he What was 

Craig: up with him? Like, first of all, he seems Just in general, like he’s on cocaine all the time.

Like he is, he is so wired all the time. And then a lot, did you notice that in a lot of scenes, he was just staring into the void? Like what the f was he looking 

Todd: at? I think he embraced this smarmy, wisecracking, aloof character so much that. It just didn’t even make sense in half of the scenes that he’s in, like there’s no other emotion.

He’s just always like, hey, uh, chuckling, smiling. Just, his character is just… In his mind, going through a Rolodex of the next wisecrack he can make, you know? He’s just waiting for, it just seems like he’s waiting for that point in the conversation, so that he can make his joke. 

Craig: I almost wondered at some points if they were reading the script off of cue cards.

Because, because Treat Williams looked like, like, like, look just left of camera. Like, sometimes. Yeah, it’s true. And him not so much, but sometimes there was one Conversation in particular where Treat Williams and one of the two women who, again, are identical to one another. Him and that woman and Joe Piscopo are all in frame together.

And Treat Williams and the woman are talking to each other. And Joe Piscopo is just staring off into the yonder. Like, what are you looking at? Like, I need the camera to move. There’s clearly something really… Fascinating happening just left of camera. Oh my god. It was so weird. Yeah. Uh, I could just like spitball about this stupid shit all the time.

If you wanna, like, okay, so, there’s this heist or whatever and the cops, not just the cops, but the entire Police force, and military, and 

Todd: FBI show up. They’re there within seconds. They’re 

Craig: there within seconds. Surrounding 

Todd: the place. Getting into place. They all have Uzis and endless ammo. It’s so great. Oh my 

Craig: god.

And then these two guys come out, and this happens then. Once it happens now, it happens for the rest of the movie. Enormously long gunfights where the bad guys are just 

Todd: standing there 

Craig: barraged with bullets like they like they just stand there and take hundreds and hundreds of bullets and like it becomes a talking point like hey why why aren’t they dead like I shot him like a million times but this happens over and over again like it’s as it turns out these guys are zombies you They’re, they’re reanimated corpses and that’s why bullets don’t hurt them and yet the main characters continue to shoot them with guns for the rest of the movie.

There is like, I can’t, I can’t even save it for like chronological purposes. There is a point at the end of the movie where Treat Williams, who is a zombie and another zombie stand 10 feet from each other. Both of them with machine guns, shooting them directly into each other for a good 30 seconds. 

Todd: That was the best part of the movie.

I was laughing so hard at that part. And he shoots him into that chamber and locks the door, tosses a grenade in. 

Craig: Just the two of them, like, no shit, ten feet from each other. Like, their guns were almost kissing. They were standing so close to each other. It was so great. And just standing there, blow, like, a barrage of machine gun fire right into one another.

Like, Treat Williams could have started brushing his hair. Like, they weren’t even… Yeah, 

Todd: but that was the joke. I mean, I 

Craig: get that it’s the joke, but that that makes the whole movie a joke. Like, why do you keep shooting these people? I know. Bullets don’t hurt them. 

Todd: God, it’s a buddy cop action movie, man. We gotta have bullets.

Like I said, they don’t make movies like this anymore. In fact, I was just, I was thinking about it. I was, I was like, like I was saying earlier. We don’t make action movies like this anymore because things are more acrobatic and stunty now, you know? Just like, like a fist fight in a James, in an old Roger Moore James Bond movie.

Craig: Guns are kind of passe, yeah. Yeah, 

Todd: you know, it just, it feels more real and brutal because it’s just a little rougher and more tumbly. I guess we just loved guns in the 80s. Oh, we did. Rambo and Predator and, uh, you know, it just became a parody of itself at some point. And this movie lays into it hard. And it’s pretty brutal as a result.

I 

Craig: mean That opening gunfight is impressive! Like, it goes on for like five minutes and cops are just getting slaughtered! 

Todd: Shot in the

I was shocked. I don’t think 80s Todd would have been as shocked, but the Todd of this era is like, Oh my God, I forgot movies used to be like this. That 

Craig: one female cop getting shot right in the face. Like, that, that surprised me. And then Treat Williams like hops in a muscle car and just like does donuts up and down the street?

With 

Todd: a shotgun? The stupidest thing he could possibly do, which was dumb. Just drive right in the middle of the gunfire. All the way through. Not a bullet hits his car. He blasts a shotgun out the door once and somehow ends up taking the one guy down. And then on his way back, like, the guy chucks a grenade, or he chucks a grenade?

I don’t know where the grenade came from. 

Craig: The guy just dropped it! Like, the bad guy, like, 

Todd: had a grenade. Oh, he got shot out of his hand, yeah. And he just, like, dropped it. Uh oh. 

Craig: And people are getting hit by cars and slammed into buildings. This was nuts. This opening scene was nuts. So great. 

Todd: Like I said, nowadays it’s like a ballet, like everything’s more…

slick and it’s more slickly shot and the stunts are more slick and half of them aren’t even real and so you know it’s it’s just a little more like it’s it’s like it’s like martial arts or something this is just brutal and in your face and it’s crazy stuff is crashing and yeah 

Craig: you should watch it listeners like yeah streaming for free on tubi just watch that first 10 minutes if nothing else it’s crazy it’s 

Todd: i love it though it it’s so 80s It is so 80s.

Craig: After they’re done, what do they do? They have to go get yelled at by their boss. 

Todd: By the black captain, right? First they get yelled at by the boss, and then they get yelled at by the black captain who lists off all the bad things they did. Unauthorized use of a city vehicle. 

Craig: Reckless endangerment of property and lives.

Use of a non regulation firearm. 

Todd: That was me, not Bigelow, sir. 

Craig: Disrespectful conduct. Flippant and tasteless verbal remarks. That was me. An 18 parking tickets so far this month. Need I point 

Todd: out that you guys are already on probation twice? And that this 

Craig: morning’s cowboy adventure puts both of you on the endangered species list?

And that your badges go into the shitter if you screw up just one 

Todd: more time. Ha ha! But, you know… I can’t deny that you actually stopped the criminals, so you got one more chance. Go catch, 

Craig: go catch that Cash and Dash gang. And that’s the other thing that this movie is, like, it jumps from one scene to the next, and they will verbally transition you into it, even though it doesn’t really make any sense.

Like, gotta go catch that Cash and Dash gang. Okay, well, let’s go to the morgue. Alright, like, okay, like, it’s just, they just keep going places, oh 

Todd: my god. That’s what gives the movie energy though, like, I was never bored, I was never once like, oh god, alright, looking at my watch, wondering when this scene was gonna end.

It just keeps moving ahead of you, and it’s so 80s, I love it, cause then they go back to their office and They’re chatting about it. What do you think’s going on with the Cash and Dash gang? I don’t know. There’ve been six robberies within a same nine block radius, and when you shoot them, they don’t die.

And then Tariq Williams goes, well, you know, there’s some drugs that can do that, like PCP. And I was like, yes, another PCP reference. We talked about this in that stupid movie with, uh, with Body by Jake. You remember when he gets high on PCP? And we’re like, where did PCP go? PCP was huge in the 80s. At least, as a kid, I was meant to think so.

I know. Watch out for that 

Craig: PCP. They’ll slip it to you anywhere they can. Oh my 

Todd: god. Indestructible. Then you are crazy. Then we get introduced to the worst actor in the entire film, sadly. Rebecca the coroner, who has had a past with Uh, Treat Williams and no 

Craig: well, that’s the thing, like, uh, Okay, so she had a past with him, which is blatantly obvious because But it doesn’t matter.

Her entire character doesn’t matter, so that’s why, like, she’s bland, she, like, she’s just she plays it dead face. Yes. Like, I think that she’s like, I’m smart scientist, so I will show no 

Todd: emotion. And there’s no chemistry between them as a result. 

Craig: In fact, aside from the fact that he is so charming, like he could have chemistry with coffee table because he is just 

Todd: so charming.

That’s what it feels like he’s doing. I mean, the coffee table, you know, from over her shoulder. It’s perfect. Like you’re like, oh, okay. Yeah, this guy’s got emotions. Got from over his shoulder. She just like. I don’t know, you know, a lot has gone on between us in the past few years, and, ugh. And 

Craig: in the background, Joe Biscopo is just back there in like, his baby tee.

Yeah, just like, wide eyed, like, Hey, what’s up, uh, I’m just uh, hanging out. Like, So. Funny, but she, she tells him that the guys were dead. So we figure out that this is like a zombie thing. 

Todd: Yeah. They’ve had autopsies before and then out of nowhere walks in Dr. McNabb and the minute he walks in from nowhere, like, Hey guys, whoa, what’s going on here?

Well, these guys can’t be dead. I’m like. He’s the bad guy. Right, he’s 

Craig: the bad guy, and also, who is he? Uhhh? Like, he’s referred to, like, who is he, he’s, uh, the actor is Darren McGavin, who is the dad from A Christmas Story, like, and will always only ever be that. For me, but right in this movie. He’s just around and they they call him.

Dr. Body, I have no idea who this man is or what he does. Yeah, I still don’t but he’s clearly the bad guy 

Todd: From the minute he walks in he is playing that role. Oh, here’s the guy We’re just gonna quickly introduce and then leave and then later on About halfway through the movie, he’ll come in and some other nonsensical scene he’ll pop up for no reason.

He’ll just 

Craig: drive by in a car and wave and be like, Hey guys, what’s up? And they’ll be like, Hey Dr. Body. And he’ll be like, Okay, gotta go, bye! Like, seriously, that 

Todd: happens. Just to remind you he’s there. 

Craig: Just to remind you he’s there. And then, for some reason, they, oh, because they found traces of some stupid drug, I don’t know, and I, like, it’s all connected, but who cares?

They end up at this place called, uh, Dante Pharmaceuticals. I am next to positive that this is an exact same set piece from Brain Dead. 

Todd: It is. It’s, yeah, it’s the same 

Craig: building. Oh my god, as soon as I saw it, I was like, GASP Uh huh. We 

Todd: just saw this place in a different movie. I a few weeks ago, yeah. It’s a very distinct building.

It was so weird. Apparently it was used in Biodome, too, with Pauly T. I read that, because 

Craig: as soon as I saw it, I’m researching. I’m, like, Googling, like, building from Braindead. Like, I couldn’t find anything. But I was just positive, because it’s the ex It, like, not all the exterior And the interior, like when I saw the exterior, I’m like, that’s where that guy got hit by a car and he had the brain in a jar and inside was where he was meeting with the crazy people.

Yeah, yeah, it’s the same same one. Not important, but blew me away. Then they walk in and at the front desk. The Dayguard Is so involved in looking at Penthouse Magazine Openly That Joe Piscopo has to say Sorry to interrupt your erection, pal, but we’d like to speak with the management of this facility That is something that really happens That’s right In this movie Yes Like Yeah Oh my god 

Todd: One of the many lovely Joe Piscopo one liners in this one.

Wow. There’s a supercut of them on YouTube if you want to check it out. Oh my god, that is hilarious. So, then, then we get introduced to a, the woman, you know, it’s the classic, uh, they notice a woman is walking towards them and The camera goes all the way up her leg. Yeah, I know. It’s so hard. It’s so difficult.

But she gives them a tour. She’s the PR person, Randy James. Also, what dates this movie, she’s talking openly about how they experiment on animals, cause they do cosmetics and things like that. And like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is the asphyxiation room. On the sad circumstance where we have to put an animal down that we’ve been experimenting on.

We just put it in this room, and press a button, and it sucks all the air out of the room in seconds, and the animal dies. And they die, 

Craig: they die peacefully, and go, Fuck you, what are you 

Todd: talking about? Peacefully? Who would have died that 

Craig: way? Slowly suffocate? No. My god, and like, not only is it like, the suffocating room, but it’s just…

Right there in the front hallway with a HUGE WINDOW So that you can just, I guess, watch the animals die a slow, painful death. 

Todd: And then right next to it, also in the front hallway, are these giant steel doors that say, Dangerous chemicals, don’t go inside. And she’s like, yeah, we can’t go in there. Yeah, we 

Craig: can’t do that.

Let me see it out. And then, Joe Piscore says, Okay, uh, but first I have to go peepee. Todd, he says that! Yeah, 

Todd: I gotta pee so bad my teeth are floating. Can you tell me where the bathroom 

Craig: is? Just have to go pee pee. Oh, 

Todd: boy. But that’s just a ruse. Uh, Doug, his name is Doug. He sneaks into the dangerous chemicals room by jamming the metal clip from his ID tag into the card reader on it, which, it shorted out the electrical, and it opens up, and there are no dangerous chemicals in here at all.

I wrote this down as the Death Star Room. It, it, yes. Mm hmm. That’s exactly what it is. It looks like a room from the Death Star. It’s got like all this crazy, it’s a It’s completely out of place. 

Craig: It’s massive. 

Todd: Industrial. Imagine if you were walking down the busy hallway, you know, just past the reception area when somebody was going into that room, don’t you think you’d be like What the f is going on in there?

Yeah, 

Craig: and like, there’s like a like, kind of like a big like, I don’t know like death ray kind of contraption like in the middle of this circular room. Kind of over a 

Todd: table 

Craig: Over a table with something Large on it covered with like a rain tarp like I what is even happening? I don’t even understand and so then he takes off the rain tarp and it is a giant Mutant biker.

I have to say that some Of the makeup effects and practical effects in this movie are really fun. I really enjoyed this big, fat biker design because his face is like it’s been stretched down the middle. 

Todd: I don’t know what that was supposed to be. Like, he got split and then put back together. It was 

Craig: almost like he had two faces.

It was weird. I liked it, but he’s enormous. He is like this 400 pound guy fighting… Chopes capote. Oh, 

Todd: God. Here’s the crazy thing though. So he starts shooting, and that captures the attention of, um, Of the guy and the girl at the, at the front desk. Like, he’s getting ready to go, Roger. By the way, I don’t know if I mentioned, his name is Roger Mortis.

Har har har. Uh, uh, uh, Tree, William’s character, and Randy, and They’re having, like, a little flirty thing and they’re getting ready to go, But then they hear the gunshots. So, they start to take off, And that front desk guy, Leaps up with a gun and shoots at him. I know! Why did he do that? Why is he trying to kill him all of a sudden?

I have no idea. It was weird. That’s how it was in the 80s though. Everybody had a gun. Actually, everybody in this movie. Has a gun. He was mad because he interrupted his arrest. He was like, my arrest, I’m getting my revenge. Or maybe, or maybe he was just on PCP. He was 

Craig: for sure PCP. I couldn’t tell if he was a zombie because he gets shot a couple of times before he goes down.

Todd: He eventually goes down. He goes down too quick. He couldn’t have been a zombie. 

Craig: Joe Piscopo is fighting this enormous guy and somehow Treat Williams just gets knocked into the suffocating room and knocked in there and locked in there and is in there. for a solid minute and a half while we watch the oxygen level go down.

This 

Todd: was not what she had promised earlier. No, but the 

Craig: whole time, and I guess I must have been more into this movie than I Thought because the whole time I’m sitting there like help him help him right suffocating 

Todd: room You see the control room for the suffocating room and some mysterious hand which we never see who it was presses the button to activate it meanwhile As soon as Joe Piscopo’s character takes him down, takes down the biker guy, he goes and he just pounds on the window with his elbow a few times.

Why won’t 

Craig: the door open? Like, you would think that of all of the rooms, the suffocating room would have, like, 

Todd: a fail safe. Like an emergency fail safe. Oh, for God’s 

Craig: sakes. 

Todd: I don’t even know why this, this fire extinguisher that he was beating this biker guy with, why didn’t he pick that up and at least try to smash the window in?

Craig: I don’t know. I forgot to say that when he was fighting the big guy, Treat Williams comes in and says, What is this thing? And Joe Pesco goes, Very ugly. Like, these, these are the jokes. Oh, for God’s 

Todd: sake. It’s, they’re all groaners. 

Craig: Roger dies, but they, Rebecca’s like, don’t worry. And she puts them on the, she puts them on the resurrection table.

Doug 

Todd: just shows her the Death Star room. Apparently they’re able to wander around in here and she figures. She just figures it all out. She, she steps onto the computer control panel, types a couple things. 

Craig: She claims that she knows nothing about it. She’s just the PR girl. That’s it. Uh huh. But as soon as she 

Todd: No, this isn’t the PR girl.

This is Re This is Rebecca, not Randy. Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, so she literally knows nothing about it. She just types a few things, sees a printout of like three lines on the screen, and she just turns to Doug and goes, This is how they do it, Doug. This is how they resurrect the dead. He looks just as shocked as I was.

I was like, how did she figure all that shit out?

Craig: She’s a doctor, Todd.

Todd: Yeah, that’s right. She’s a doctor in the 80s with an 80s computer. 

Craig: Yeah. They know all about resurrection tables. It’s like third year medical school. Oh, it’s 

Todd: just so… Funny. They put him on the table, and of course, in a flurry of animated lightning, he resurrects.

And he stems out, and then who wanders in? Just literally pops in, is that Dr. MacGavigan, and he’s like, oh, hey Rebecca, oh. I thought you were dead.

Craig: And he, but he feels great, like he’s never felt so good. But he has no heartbeat, and then somehow, he cuts himself, and Conveniently, yeah. No blood comes out, but there are like, glitter sparkles? Like, what the fuck? 

Todd: What is happening? He’s like a lost boy now. He’s got glittery blood or something in there. 

Craig: Oh god, and like, all of these things are never answered.

Todd: No. 

Craig: Well, especially because They get, he gets shot a bunch of times. So many times. And there’s always blood. 

Todd: Right. There’s 

Craig: no glitter. The movie is inexplicable. Because not only is, like, he gets shot with a machine gun several times, but then and I’m jumping ahead, we can come back, but after he is shot multiple times with a machine gun, he has a scene The brushing his hair scene where he is shirtless in front of a mirror, no wounds.

Todd: Oh, you’re right. I didn’t catch that. 

Craig: Like, the whole reason that he is in the bathroom brushing his hair is because he has been shot all to hell. And they tell him he needs to clean up and change his clothes. But then he is just sexy as fuck standing in front of that mirror brushing his hair. Um, yeah.

Todd: After he gets resurrected, they figure out he has no blood, he has, he doesn’t bleed or whatever. Everybody but Rebecca walks out, back to the counter, or whatever. And then, like, a minute later, Rebecca runs back out and says, Roger, you haven’t 

Craig: heard the worst of it. I’m dead, Rebecca. How much worse can it get?

I’ve been scanning the lab report. The resurrection process has an unfortunate side effect. Which is what? Progressive decay of reanimated tissue. Irreversible cell damage. You’ve got ten to twelve hours, tops. And then what? All of the cells of your body will dissolve into a kind of organic stew. Which is so stupid.

She is so smart. Yeah, how does she know that? Why intend Like, we actually see this happen to somebody else later. It’s not Yeah, you don’t need to be told. They slowly decompose for a little while, and then instantaneously they melt into a pool of goo. What? Like, that doesn’t even… Yeah. Why do I care? I was gonna say it doesn’t make any sense.

Why do I care? It doesn’t 

Todd: have to make any sense. No, it doesn’t. But this goes back to what you were saying earlier, is the movie tells us way more than it needs to. It could show us a lot more. It could infer things. But everything we need to know comes straight out of every character’s mouth. I get 

Craig: this one.

They have to give it a timeline. They have to give it a tim… It has to be urgent. This all has to be taken care of in the next 12 hours. 

Todd: But what a clunky way. You know, that’s my point. Oh, it 

Craig: is. They, they start immediately to kind of try to show that he’s decomposing, and the way that they do that firstly is to just not put him in full makeup.

Like, um, to, to just, like, put him in foundation so he’s really washed out. And then there’s a whole gag where he has to go to, like, a convenience store. To buy… Lipstick. Lipstick! Like, like, I don’t remember, like, I 

Todd: don’t know what he said. He cares a lot about how red his lips the things you’d care about, uh, red, red lips is 

Craig: the

most important. and he’ll look like he’s in makeup. But no, it’s just a gag. Like, they just pull over for a minute so he can run in and buy some Merlot. covered lipstick so he can have a really hard time putting it on because he’s straight. Well, well, how do women do this as he’s 

Todd: three? And then Joe Piscopo is like, I don’t know.

You look pretty good to me. And 

Craig: it’s like, like he like puts on like a quote unquote gay affect 

Todd: and it’s not funny. It’s just dumb. 

Craig: It’s not funny. It 

Todd: actually, I thought it was hilarious. Like 

Craig: people get so sensitive about things, but like. That’s why I was saying, like, this is such a straight dude movie, like, 

Todd: Oh, it’s such an 80s movie.

It’s just dated, that’s all. We don’t put that stuff in our movies anymore, 

Craig: Craig. I know, but like, honestly, it wasn’t mean spirited at all. No, it was funny. It was 

Todd: typical. I thought, like, Ho ho, a guy putting on makeup. Oh ho, you must be gay. Yeah. 

Craig: Don’t Right. No homo, 

Todd: bro. But that, but that, they immediately go to Randy’s house and I was like, yeah, like where the hell did she go?

She just disappeared. And she’s just like, oh, I’m sorry. I just got scared and left. Why don’t you guys come in? And then she says, But, but, no, no, 

Craig: but she’s fleeing. Like, they catch her just as she’s jumping into her car to like, flee the country or something. 

Todd: I don’t know. And so they’re giving her a bad time and she goes, 

Craig: Oh, I get it.

You’re the tough cop. And your partner here, he’s the nice cop, because he’s not too scary with lipstick on. What?! I don’t know. Oh my god. It makes no sense. Joe Piscopo just, like, sees a random videotape on a table and is like, Hey, we should watch this videotape. Let’s put this in the videotape. So they, so they put it in.

And it’s Vincent Price. This was Vincent Price’s last horror movie. I think he appeared somewhere else after this, but this was his last horror movie. And it’s always just such a joy to see him. He’s so 

Todd: Well, he was in Edward Scissorhands if you, I mean, I don’t know if you call that a horror movie. 

Craig: Right, right, right, right.

And he’s great in that movie too. God, I love that movie. He’s talking to her, Randy. Like, and calling my princess, uh, I want you to know that I love you or something, I don’t know. It gets cut off because more machine gun zombies, uh, attack. And there’s a whole nother big deal, Roger is shot a whole bunch of times.

Um, did you notice that Randy had artistically styled photographs of herself hanging in her apartments? 

Todd: Oh! No, I didn’t! 

Craig: There was like a black and white of, like, her head, like, resting on a table and then like reflected underneath. Hilarious! Like a 

Todd: Glamour 

Craig: Shots, uh, photo. Yes, yes, totally. Hanging on her own wall.

So they electrocute one zombie like in a… hot tub or something and they impale the other one and Piscopo’s like looking off in the distance and I don’t know what’s going on and then and then and then Roger brushes his hair. And 

Todd: then they look they learn about her father who died two weeks ago and then they decide to enlist her help.

They’re looking for this chemical. They’re looking for this 

Craig: chemical which had last been delivered in mass to a Chinese In 

Todd: Chinatown! The minute she said it, I was like, Oh my god, this movie is a parody of itself. Yeah, I did last deliver some sulfuric whatever acid to a guy named Thule in Chinatown. Yeah, of course it’s Chinatown.

It’s an 80’s action movie. Chinatown’s gonna come into play. And I was like, alright. Cue all the racist stuff that we are gonna laugh at. And sure enough, they walk into the He’s like, Hey! I really want some chop suey! Uh, sorry, we’re really got a job to do. Oh my god! Yeah, but this place has got the best egg rolls in 

Craig: town!

He recites a Chinese food menu. Like… We could get some, egg foo young. Some egg rolls. I don’t know. 

Todd: This is so, so exotic and 

Craig: funny. Oh my God. And so they go in this, like, it’s this disgusting butcher shop or something where there’s just like corpses everywhere. It’s disgusting. And, um, there’s this big, fat Asian guy like chopping up stuff and they try to talk to him and he doesn’t listen.

And then the guy that they’re looking for, Thule, is the old man from Gremlins. The old Asian man from Gremlins. And this blew my mind because he’s not an ancient old man. Like, I just assumed that guy was really like an… An ancient old guy, but 

Todd: he’s not. I mean, he’s, he’s Asian. Asians don’t raisin, bud. 

Craig: You can say that because you were married to an 

Todd: Asian person.

Yeah, well, I have a lot of experience around Asians. I think if I were Asian, I would wear it as a badge of pride and I’m insanely jealous. I couldn’t say 

Craig: that. It would be racist, but you’re allowed. It’s 

Todd: okay. Oh, it’s not racist. I think it’s a compliment. It’s true. Basically, in China, if I see somebody and it looks like they’re 24, I figure, alright, they’re probably 16.

I just subtract 10 or more years from everybody. But this guy, I mean, we might have talked about it before in the gremlins thing, but he’s been in movies since the 30s. For a while, every movie that needed an Asian guy in it basically had him in it. It was kind of sad, but also… 

Craig: He also has a resurrection machine in his butcher shop, which he turns on and it brings all of the butchered animals to life.

Now this is the most ridiculous, it’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever seen. It’s 

Todd: so well done! It is so amazing at this, this era with no, uh, CGI. Yeah. Everything is practical. First of all, this is a nasty ass butcher shop. It’s a pretty racist butcher shop to be honest, but it is filled with corpses of every animal you can think of, not the least of which are ducks.

Yeah. Hanging from hooks, chopped off heads in pans, like everything. And 

Craig: most of that I’ve seen before. You know, I’ve seen these reanimated butchered animals come… to life before. We’ve seen it in movies that we’ve talked about. When that bowl came out of the freezer, I was like, you are kidding me. 

Todd: Oh, it was so balls out.

It must have taken him three weeks to film this. It was so intense. There’s so much happening. And there’s like a duck head just like going back and forth in a pot, which he feels the need to shoot the head off of. I mean, there’s, there’s gunfire, they’re getting attacked by these corpses, and then like you said, it’s like the giant freezer door comes open, and this giant bull corp uh, cow, bull, whatever corpse comes walking out and starts to, to take 

Craig: Headless, footless, disemboweled, 

Todd: half butchered corpse like it would be hanging in the meat locker, ready to be cut up into pieces.

It 

Craig: was awesome. It was so good. Funnily enough. It really didn’t pose much of a threat. Like, like it was so, it was so big. Well what else, what could it really do, yeah? It jumped on Joe Piscopo. It’s a giant steak, like, what’s it gonna do? Right. But anyway, they, they, they, they, they shoot everything and, and Joe Piscopo says, This little piggy’s going to market.

Todd: I don’t know what it is, but suddenly I’ve lost my appetite. That’s it. For this time, I’m a 

Craig: vegetarian. Roger shoots the resurrection machine and they all die. And then they find a piece of paper with a list of names and dates and they assume that it’s the dates that people died cause Vincent Price’s name is on it or something, I don’t know.

Um, and then they sit down to like have a cup of coffee or something, I don’t know. 

Todd: Library research! Oh, 

Craig: library research, right. But then, all of a sudden, Roger is like… Concerned about his mortality. They’re, they’re reading obituaries. And he’s like, oh, what would my obituary be? Uh, beloved husband to no one, father of none.

And like all, he’s like super depressed about it for a second. And then, just, that moment passes. 

Todd: This is what I meant when I said earlier, look, they were funny. They were funny together, they looked like they were having a good time, but there’s no real emotion. There’s no real emotional connection to or with anybody here, or even between the characters.

They’re all just talking over each other, you know? I mean, I enjoy 

Craig: the story, and I enjoy laughing at it, but it’s a terrible script, like… Oh yeah. That was the other thing, as I was watching it, I was like… Did these actors read this script and get excited about it? Like, like, like, this is gonna be a good movie?

I 

Todd: feel like it’s, number one, it’s a little dated. Number two, I think it’s bad in execution, honestly. I don’t, also, you’re right, a lot of the writing is dumb. I also feel like It could have worked, maybe, with some better filmmaking and some better acting choices? I don’t know. I don’t know 

Craig: what to say about it, because ultimately, I don’t hate it.

Like, it was fun to watch. It’s just, it’s 

Todd: bad. Well, the stupid stuff, at least it moves, right? It does move. Like, at least we’re not wallowing along with him in his big pick me up line. You remember when we were in 

Craig: training? They always told us you can’t be a good cop if you’re a dead cop. Here’s your chance to prove him wrong.

You’re good, and you’re dead. Oh boy, I don’t know. Then, I just have in my notes, I don’t remember under what circumstances, but the two women in the movie meet. and immediately hate each other. Like, what? Like, they just happen to be in the same room, and the second they are together they are like glaring at each other and like they just hate each other.

I have no idea what that was 

Todd: all about. It’s because this is a straight guy’s movie, you know, only one woman can be on screen at the time, otherwise they’re catty to each other and insanely jealous. Well, 

Craig: right, and you know, they’re both, they’re going to compete for Treat Williams, and whoever loses is going to have to go with Joe Piscopo.

I mean, these are some high stakes. 

Todd: Yeah, then she of course, uh, Rebecca has more information. She always knows something and she tells him, Hey, uh, I know of a special process that I found in Dante’s files that they were working on to extend the resurrection period. 

Craig: Okay, the end, then that never comes up again!

Todd: Yeah, like, why would you even have to convince him? No, 

Craig: no, he, he’s like, well, are you sure it’ll work? And she’s like, well, I’m not sure. And he’s like, well, then f k it. Like, I’m not doing it. I’ve only got three or four hours left and I have to make them count. Yeah. Oh, so they go to check out Laudermilk.

That’s Vincent Price. His name is Laudermilk. They go to check out his grave. I don’t remember why. God, I don’t remember any of this, but they go to check out his grave. The two men split up. Yeah. The girl. Randy goes with Treat Williams and they go to check out the grave and somehow. He’s like, oh, uh, I figured out that he wasn’t really your dad because of evidence.

And she’s like, no, you’re right. He wasn’t really my dad. I met him in the hospital. He helped me. He helped me. And then like five minutes later we find out that that was a lie too. But yeah. Um, they find some numbers. Why? They find some numbers written in blood inside a lampshade. Why? It doesn’t, it’s so stupid.

Like, there is an explanation for it, but even, the explanation doesn’t make any sense. No, 

Todd: it’s like a, it’s like a point and click video game at this point, yeah. They go 

Craig: back to her apartment, which is where they were supposed to meet Doug, and they look around for a second until she finds him dead, hung upside down.

In the fish tank. Yeah! Now, I ki There was part of me that kinda thought that he would probably die, but I also thought that, like, There’d be a moment. They would take him to the resurrection 

Todd: table! Right? Why didn’t they do that? 

Craig: No, there’s like, ah, bummer, he’s dead. And 

Todd: like, They don’t even call anybody!

They just put a sheet over him and start moping around. 

Craig: Uh, again, another terrible, terrible point of the script. He is, like, disgusting. Like, waterlogged and bloated and his skin is all discolored and gross. We see him again later, when he is eventually resurrected and he’s… Fine. Like. 

Todd: Just normal Joe Piscopo.

Yeah. Same smarmy face. 

Craig: It doesn’t make any sense. But I couldn’t believe it. And not only that, but then the movie kept going on and I’m like, wait. This isn’t like the buddy cop movie anymore? Like he’s really dead? It was 

Todd: just so sudden. I thought that was such a weird choice. There was no moment or anything like.

He’s just gone. Usually in the buddy cop movies, there’s like a tearful scene where the one partner dies or something like that. Now it’s just like, Oh. That’s Doug. He’s dead. He’s 

Craig: dead. Oh well. Treat Williams and the chickie go in the bathroom and she’s like, I was lying, I, I wasn’t really his daughter. Um, the truth of the matter is, I’m dead too!

And then, immediately upon that confession, she turns into a pool of mushy goo. Like, what? 

Todd: This was awesome, though. It looks great. I forgive the nonsensical aspect of it, because the effects were great. And by the time she’s down to a pill of mushy goo, her head rolls off across the floor, and as it’s decomposing, it’s still talking to him.

I’m sorry, 

Craig: Roger. Please forgive me. Oh my…

Todd: Oh, and then, you know, you talk about stupid. This is why, you know, I said point and click adventure games is like some missed shit or something. Uh, Roger goes to call Rebecca and he gets an answering machine and leaves half a message before it beeps. And as he hangs up the phone, it… It occurs to him that the numbers on the die on the phone also correspond to letters.

And so he thinks, oh, maybe that’s what those numbers were. And he puts together B O D Y. And that tells him that’s it. He goes back to the moor and he confronts the doctor because the doctor had the license plate body doc. And that is what Vincent Price’s, character for reasons I still don’t understand, wrote in code on the inside of a lamp.

Craig: Why? Because they were in on it together. 

Todd: Yes. That’s the other thing. What is he That makes 

Craig: sense. What is he leaving clues for? Like he’s leading clues to lead to his. Partner in crime? Like, it doesn’t make any sense. Oh boy. So he goes back to the morgue, and he confronts McNab, and Thule, the Asian guy, and his zombie thugs show up, and Oh, by the way, they also killed Rebecca offscreen.

Right? All of the main characters are dead now. 

Todd: Yeah, and we didn’t even get to see them die. Like, 

Craig: it’s just so weird. And they lock him in. Uh, in an ambulance with Rebecca’s corpse. And he puts the ambulance in neutral so it rolls down the hill. This long ass hill. When he puts it in neutral, the sirens also come on.

That was a feature of ambulances that 

Todd: I was unaware of. Uh, and then, uh, for some reason, if you got an ambulance rolling down the hill, people can’t drive anymore. Far ahead of the ambulance. Suddenly, chaos ensues. For no reason are just like crashing into each other and spinning out of control and and then he goes And the ambulance crashes into a pileup of cars and explodes Yeah, huge 

Craig: explosion.

I loved it. I mean, it’s a great action scene. Um, then the crime scene like there’s all kinds of cops around and roger Zips himself out of a body bag And, he’s all burned up on one side, his amazing hair is all like, spiked up, like he’s like a badass now. Um, Todd, did he change his clothes?

Todd: I am 

Craig: kind of sure that he’s in a different… Outfit

Todd: It doesn’t even matter at this point, but you’re 

Craig: right. No, he’s a badass. He, it’s like Robocop now. 

Todd: Yeah, that’s the joke. He’s now badass and everybody is stunned. And so the cop has got a, a gun on him. He says, I’m a cop too, is like, wait, you’re a cop? And he’s like, yeah, and I’m gonna need, need your gun, which then he gives to him and they all just.

Stand there with their jaws open as he hops on a police car like a badass. No, a motorcycle. A motorcycle. A police motorcycle like a badass and flies down the street away from them. 

Craig: Then there is a conference of old people. Mm hmm. At. Dante, which is that lab. Like they’re sitting around the Death 

Todd: Star room.

In the Death Star room, yeah. Oh, 

Craig: it’s so good. Body Doc, whoever that guy is, is like talking and he says something about laudermilk and he’s like, you can ask him yourself! And Vincent Price walks out and he’s alive. Oh, what a treat. It is, it’s lovely. I just absolutely love Vincent Price, and he gives a whole long speech about how God wants the rich to live forever, so the poor people can die, but God wants rich people to live forever.

I, I don’t know, like, is this… Are they pitching this to this conference of old people? I think 

Todd: so because he’s like it’s gonna cost half your fortune, but you’ll have the rest of your life You’ll live forever and you’ll be able to gain it all back. And so I think it’s just greedy. He wants Their money? I don’t, I don’t know.

It’s all kind of nebulous. It doesn’t matter. I will watch him, you know, I will watch this scene if it was an hour long. Oh sure, absolutely. 

Craig: Yeah, he could talk me to sleep every night. Laughter But Roger crashes in and shoots a bunch of the guards and this is the point where he He just stands five feet away from another zombie.

He shoots everybody. Cops? He’s a cop and he’s just plowing cops down left 

Todd: and right. Everyone has an Uzi. It’s like there’s a guard sitting down reading a magazine and he looks up and suddenly he springs up and he’s got an Uzi but he guns him down first. And he’s just shooting everyone in the hallway until, like you said, it gets to that one point where he and this other guy are like six feet away from each other and they’re just unloading into each other.

It’s 

Craig: hilarious. Right, okay, so then, he, he kills pretty much everybody in the Death Star room, except 

Todd: for Yeah, he just starts shooting them! 

Craig: Except for McNabb, I think is his name, and Laudermilk. These, Doc, Body Doc and, and Vincent Price. They’re, they’re not dead yet. Body Doc is like… Hey, I got a surprise for you!

And he pulls, like, a tarp off the table or whatever, and it’s Doug. Lookin great! Like, nothing ever happened! And he’s alive, but the guy’s like, Yeah, uh, he’s alive, but, uh, he was brain dead for too long, so he’s totally brainless. Kill that guy, will you? And Joe Piscopo, God bless him. Not, not, not an actor, really, I don’t think.

No, not great. Like, him playing brainless really isn’t… There’s not any difference from what 

Todd: he’s His smirk! His smirk is a little less pronounced on the 

Craig: But Roger, like, talks to him, he’s like, Hey, uh, we have the same death day, we could have death day parties together, and Hey, uh, remember that time I put on lipstick?

Todd: He literally says this. And, and, like, 

Craig: Joe Piscopo smirks, he’s like, Oh yeah, you did put on some lipstick. And then, then he’s fine. And he’s back. 

Todd: It’s 

Craig: classic movie. And he turns around and he looks at McNab and he’s like, Welcome to zombie land. What?

And McNab’s like, Uh, I’m not gonna give you the satisfaction. And he shoots himself in the head. Oh my 

Todd: god! 

Craig: But then! I’m sorry! They put him on the resurrection table And bring him back to life And then Treat Williams is like, Hey McNab, you wanna see what happens when you resurrect somebody twice? And he flips the switch And the guy blows up!

Explodes! Oh my god. Apparently that’s what happens if you resurrect somebody twice. They 

Todd: explode. Fantastic. 

Craig: Vincent Price, you know, from a corner is like screaming at them, begging them to save the machine. Um, promising, you know, you’ll, you’ll, uh, I can give you anything you want, I can give you wealth and success and you can live forever.

But they shoot up the machine. And then they walk out of the room. Into light and fog, like they’re walking into heaven, and like, they’re talking about reincarnation, like, yeah, I wonder if reincarnation, uh, exists, and Doug’s like, well, if it does, I hope I come back as a woman’s bicycle seat, and then they walk into the light, and that’s the end!

Oh, God. Oh. 

Todd: My. God. There’s even a Dead Heat theme rock song that comes on after it. It just checked all my boxes. The last 

Craig: line is that he wants to come back as a woman’s bicycle seat. That encapsulates why this is the straightest movie I’ve ever seen. I can just see a theater full of bros just, Heh heh heh, woman’s bicycle seat.

Todd: Technically, technically there’s one line after that. Okay, alright. What is it? They says, This could be the end of a beautiful friendship. Oh, right, right, right. Like, uh… It’s not very clever. 

Craig: They, uh, they, did this movie do well? Because I know that they, they talked about a sequel! Like, uh, the guy, the, I don’t know, producers or whoever talked to the writer about a sequel, he’s like, well, all the characters are dead!

And the producer’s like, well, you’ve got a resurrection machine, make it work!

Todd: I mean, fair enough. Hilarious. A 3. 8 million, I suppose? I suppose. Dude, I, I thought almost all of the effects in this movie were great. I thought it was a highlight of the whole film. Yeah, yeah. Nick Benson, um, the guy who did the special, uh, was kind of one of the dudes in charge of special effects for The Blob, and Nightmare on Elm Street 4, and Society did it.

I love the effects. I love the over the top campiness of it. I mean, and they knew it was campy and they just leaned into the camp 

Craig: hardcore. It’s kinda got, to me, like a Big Trouble in Little China vibe to it. And I love that movie. You know, I don’t disagree with you, like, I’ve talked about how stupid it is, and it is stupid, uh, I would still recommend it, like, I think people should watch it, it’s funny, like, it’s really funny.

Like, in a, you’re laughing with it, but also laughing at it. Yeah. Kind of way. It’s not sophisticated. No, but it’s entertaining. I was entertained and both of those guys, like, I don’t know, you know, Treat Williams I think was a very serious actor who went on to do, you know, serious, well respected stuff. Oh yeah.

He’s no slouch. You know, Joe Piscopo, he’s a funny guy. He’s really kind of more of a. character, like a persona than, than an actor, but that’s fine and it certainly does hearken back. It’s like a super super goofy Lethal weapon. Yeah, it’s that same kind of buddy cop kind of deal and the same kind of vibe and it works on the in The same kind of way and you’re right the the the effects are great The story’s dumb the writing’s terrible, but I would still recommend it If you if you haven’t seen it, you should see it once decide for yourself As bad as it was, I thought it was hilarious, and I was excited 

Todd: to talk about it.

If we had had this on VHS when we were kids, we would have watched this over and I think you’re right. And we would probably be having a very different discussion right now. Yeah, I think you’re right. So, uh, yeah, I really liked it. Um, did you notice, by the way, there is an uncredited, apparently, Linnea Quigley role in here?

No! She was a zombie go go girl, and I kinda wanna go back and see where that was. Yeah, me too. I don’t remember a zombie go go girl, but… I 

Craig: also, I had looked at the cast list, and I saw that Martha Quinn played a newswoman, and I was, like, watching out for her, and I missed it somehow, but, like, that was a blast from the past.

Like, Martha Quinn from MTV News. Whatever. No, it’s totally worth it. And it’s, it’s a guy, not just guys, people our age. If you’re nostalgic for this era, this, this type of movie, which you are absolutely right. They don’t make anymore. You should definitely give it a shot. It’s, it’s, it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s goofy fun.

Todd: As goofy as it is, it is really a showcase for, honestly, I think for Treat Williams as acting ability, like he’s head and shoulders above. Most of the cast in this movie. He’s 

Craig: just so charming. Like, he’s just one of those people. There are people like that that are just, they’re magnetic. And he is that type of person.

And it’s not, it certainly doesn’t hurt that he’s a very nice looking man. But he’s just so charismatic. Like, uh. You could just drown in his eyes and his smile, like, and, and, and, and not in a gross way, like, he, he’s just, uh, he, he just seems like such a cool guy, and I’m glad, you know, when he passed, you mentioned doing this, and that’s been a while, you know, we got caught up in some other things, um, I’m glad that we eventually came back around to this, cause he was a cool guy, a very talented guy, and, uh, yeah, I, I, I’m glad to have had the opportunity to say some 

Todd: nice things about him.

Absolutely. Same here. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. Find us online by googling “Two Guys and a Chainsaw Podcast” and drop us a line anywhere we are. Let us know what you thought of this movie and any movies you’d like us to do in the future.

Also, consider joining our Patreon group. We have a pretty active little Patreon community behind the scenes – patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. It only takes five or ten bucks a month, uh, to give you exclusive access to minisodes that we do, the ability to influence the movies that we do, lots of just fun chatter.

We just, actually, we just have a good time chatting with our patrons, um, so please check it out at patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week’s tribute episode is for Julian Sands, whose most notorious horror flick in his extensive and well-respected filmography has to be Warlock. This is a 90’s movie through and through, and our memories of were a bit rosy. Watching it today for the first time in a long time, we mostly had fun laughing at it, but appreciating Sands’ fine performance. Enjoy!

Transcript coming soon.

Last week was X. This week, we cover the prequel, co-written by headliner Mia Goth and director Ty West. Pearl delivers some deep, heart-wrenching insight into the villain from the previous film, while copping the style of 1930’s Hollywood. For us, much like X, it worked beautifully.

Pearl (2022)

Episode 353, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, last week, Craig, we watched X. And I’m pretty sure that the whole reason we watched X was to get to Pearl, which is the prequel to that film. That you really, really wanted to do. 

Craig: Yeah. Not the whole reason. Cause I really like X too.

I do a lot, but I really, really wanted to do pearl and it just felt weird. Like. We should just do 

Todd: them both. And honestly, I feel like we watched them in the right order too because sometimes with a prequel You want to watch the I don’t know it kind of depends More often than not usually it’s good to see the original and then see the prequel and then you can kind of enjoy Seeing those nods to, Oh I see where this is going.

Right. Or, Oh I know in my head that’s how that develops. That’s kind of a treat, right? For people who have seen the original film to see those nods in the first movie. I personally think this, I like this movie even better. Having seen X first because this is a character driven story 100% and it just shows what leads up to one of the two main antagonists in X.

She gets some sympathy in X even though she’s clearly crazy and this story really convincingly I think lays out how that kind of person can be created. Although, ultimately, I think there’s just a part of her that maybe is just a little psychotic that there’s no clear explanation for, right? She just is, you know?

Some people, like, she even says in the movie at one point that she thinks there’s a piece of her missing that other people have. That’s part of why I thought this movie was so clever. I thought it kind of neatly checked all the boxes, kind of filled in everything, and was just fascinating from beginning to end.

I also like the style that it was in, whereas X… As we talked about, you know, copped a 70s style without fully committing to, Hey, we’re trying to make a movie that looks like it was made in the 70s. It’s just continuous nods toward that style, which struck a beautiful balance. I felt like this movie did the same thing.

It was still a modern movie, but stylistically it was, Oh, like three quarters of the way to a 1930s movie, like The Wizard of Oz, which they were clearly calling out to, which we will certainly talk about later. But yeah, I hadn’t seen it before, and uh, I was super excited when you messaged me. What you said to me was, I don’t even think this is like the best horror movie I’ve seen.

This might be one of the best movies, period, that I’ve ever seen. And that’s very high praise coming from you, so uh… At least, 

Craig: at least in a long time. I mean… There’s tons of great movies out there. I’ve seen lots and lots of great movies, but I, uh, I do think this is one of the best movies that I’ve seen in a long time just in terms of overall quality.

Like, I mean, Top to bottom. Yeah, I mean, there, yeah, it’s, yeah, it’s a horror movie, um, but it, it feels Like, it is somehow elevated a little bit, a step above that, to me. And, for every reason, I mean, I think that the direction is fantastic, the acting is… exemplary and I think what gets me most is Ty West’s commitment to style.

Yeah. Like you said, you know, he, he went for the kind of gritty 1970s vibe, uh, in the first movie and I thought he did it to great effect and It was very intentional, um, that he wanted to do something entirely different, stylistically, with this movie, as he, it plans to do with Maxine as well. I have no idea where he’s drawing his inspiration for that movie, um, but you’re absolutely right for this movie.

It’s also just so cleverly tied to the first, to, to X. That being said… You could watch either movie standalone. Yeah, and totally not really be missing anything There there definitely are connections and and call backs and call forwards or whatever to one another but they both Function as standalone films.

You do not need to see one to see the other but I agree with you that I think I think watching X first I think That’s the way to go, but ultimately it really doesn’t matter. 

Todd: It’s hard to say because then I suppose if you watch X second Then you’ll might also be a little delighted by seeing the events of the first movie like the remnants and traces of that in There as well.

I think he benefits from the fact that they they started writing this movie While they were in the middle of production on the first movie, and it was really because they were stalled. Because, they were in New Zealand working on the first movie when, uh, the pandemic hit. And they were all locked down, and they were all, um, delayed for a while.

And so, Tai West and Mia Goth got together, and decided to write, uh, a prequel to it. I think it came out of their original character work, like, you know, they were, they had already been talking about. Which you always do, right? You always talk about the backstory. Or, well, just to prepare you for the character in the movie you’re doing.

Then, uh, they just expanded upon that and, uh, took it in some interesting directions. I think it’s also funny that they set this movie right at the same time as the Spanish influenza. Yeah. The other global pandemic. How cute and fun was that? 

Craig: Right? I just thought it was really clever and it’s not like they don’t make a big deal out of it.

No, it’s not. It’s not a movie that is about that pandemic or any pandemic really. But it was just so timely. It is referenced and I think it’s a good reminder to people that We’re not that special, you know, like Poor us, you know, like that was such a strange time, you know, uh quarantine lockdown Pandemic it was such a strange time that my mind still hasn’t fully processed it Like it doesn’t seem like it really happened.

I I can’t believe that I was basically a shut in in my own house for Almost two years. It’s, it’s crazy. 

Todd: Yeah, it almost seems like a dream 

Craig: now. Yeah, I know. But this, it happened before. And this just subtly reminds you, yeah, people have been through this before. Suck it up. And I don’t mean that. I know that it was a really difficult time.

But it was a really, you know, these people are going through it as well. And I think that that makes the movie a little bit easier to relate to because there’s definitely a sense of isolation. Isolation is, it’s one of the things that troubles her the most. Um, that she is so isolated. Yeah. And insulated from the rest of the world that she so desperately wants to be a part of.

And I think… And that’s really relatable to those of us who recently were locked up in our house for two 

Todd: years. Well, and part of what makes her a tragic figure, really, uh, is that, uh, we know from the first movie that this isolation that she so hates is ultimately her fate. Right. So, we know from watching the first movie that she is not going to be able to escape this.

And maybe that was another reason why I really enjoyed having seen the first one there, because there was just this… Cloud of doom and dread over the whole thing knowing, uh, that her dreams were going to go unfulfilled and it was just a matter of how was she going to handle it and just how bad is it going to get, you know, and how does all that unfold?

And that was just, it didn’t matter that I knew that it was going to have a bad ending. Most horror movies, we know how they’re going to end anyway. So, you know, 

Craig: one of the elements of tragedy is that, you know, it’s a tragedy, you know, it’s not going to end well. That’s true. Yeah. Yeah, I think that adds something, uh, knowing where it ultimately is, is going to end.

But also, for me, that built a, a level of curiosity as to how is it going to get there? Like I had so many, I had so many questions, like I, I, I see, you know, the, the blueprint. Uh, and I thought it was a really interesting story, ultimately a very simple story. I was just blown away from the very beginning.

As X opened on the barn doors, so does this film. Um, but the barn doors open up almost like a curtain opening on those old MGM. When, when people would actually go to a theater with a stage and a big red velvet curtain and the curtain would open to, you know, reveal the movie screen. Like, that’s… That’s immediately what it was a throwback to, and it opens on the same farm, and it looks like the same farm, but presented in such a different way, like such an idyllic Americana…

Beautiful landscape, and everything is in Technicolor, which I just thought was not only a brilliant choice. First of all, they wanted to make it in black and white. The production studio, A24, was against it. Um, and I think that ultimately Mia Goth and Ty West agreed that, uh, it might actually be more unique instead of doing it in black and white, to try something different.

And so they went with Technicolor, which… I love as a choice and it’s just stunning to look at. This movie is just gorgeous to look at and the intricacy of detail blows my mind. There is such a specific color palette for the whole Movie, it’s, it’s insane. It’s true, 

Todd: and the sets as well, like, it really, again, it harkens back to that time.

Where movies were, even exteriors were shot on soundstages, you know, in many ways. Or like the, MGM and Paramount and all these lots would have backlots. Where they had carefully constructed sets, uh, outdoor sets, homes, farms, things like that. The Wizard of Oz almost entirely is shot on a soundstage. Even all the exteriors that take place at Dorothy’s, you know, farm and stuff.

And it, you can tell. Because everything is just a little too pristine, a little too perfect. I, I, I don’t mean that in a bad way. It’s just, uh, it just, it’s a different style. There’s no grittiness there, uh, there’s a lot of care being done, and movies, especially back then, you know, you go to the movies to escape, to just be in this other world that is unlike yours.

And so, even when you’re watching just a drama, or something like that, to see this glamorous world where everything’s just a little more perfect, a little more put together, than what you see when you walk out of the street. You know, was part of the charm of seeing these old movies, even at the time, and this completely hearkens to that and just by God in that tiny little town that she must live near.

I mean, this tiny little town with one tiny little church and almost nobody in it has this. From the outside anyway, the movie theater is gorgeous, you know, and pristine, and I mean, for a small town. It’s not like a mince Chinese theater, you know, Los Angeles, you know, movie palace. But it’s like, wow, this just looks too perfect, and I love it, you know?

And then when she walks into the alley next to the movie theater, it’s almost jarring, you know? Because even the alley looks like this, like a set. In a good way. Again, evocative of that time. Like you said, he totally committed to the style in every way, and it really showed. Yet, he’s not so committed to it that it doesn’t allow him to make choices that are smart for the movie, that ultimately take us a little out of that, and are satisfying and fulfilling.

Craig: Right, and… Eventually, there is somewhat gory violence, which you wouldn’t have seen in a movie that was made in the time that this seems to emulate, at least not graphically. It may have been suggested, you may see some violence, but you’re not going to see blood and people’s eyeballs. 

Todd: Which the contrast is nice, you know, when it does happen, it’s, it’s, it is jarring and it is grounding in a way, like.

Like, oh, this is, you know, real or whatever, what’s really happening to these people. And that in itself, I think was a good choice. You know, it, uh, it amps the horror of the horror movie. Well, and it’s, 

Craig: I don’t know how to say this without sounding weird. Cause I’m not psychotic, but it’s still beautiful to look at.

Like it’s still so well planned and choreographed and shot. And the bright red of the blood is one of the colors in the palette of the movie. And so it just feels. It just feels so right. The other thing that gives it somewhat of a surreal nature to me is the fact that it is scored from start to finish.

Oh, man. I was, I was paying attention, trying, like, keep your ears open, Craig, because I really want to know if ever this score drops out. And if it did, I was so into the movie, You never noticed. That I didn’t even notice. I know. Because it seemed like the whole, the entirety of the film is underscored. And it’s…

Fantastic. Like, it’s an amazing score. It’s in 

Todd: that classic orchestral score that swells with the action that’s going on the screen. It sounds very old Hollywood. 

Craig: Yeah, the score suggests to you the tone of the scene. And I love that, you know, in brighter, more vibrant… Scenes that aren’t dark or solemn or scary.

It’s it’s upbeat and very pleasant and then As scores do when things get tense, you know the music it gets more tense And again, I say as scores do you’ve heard movie scores before it’s not like that’s anything new but filmmakers Rarely, if ever, do this anymore. You hardly ever see a movie scored from start to finish.

And I loved every second of it. That’s the thing, from the time the camera opened up on those barn doors, and it opened up, I was… And I remained spellbound through the rest of the movie. I just, I couldn’t take my eyes off of it. I think 

Todd: before we get into the plot, we need to say, obviously, like always, if you want to see this movie, we, we like it enough, we think you might enjoy it by going into it cold or fresh, not hearing a speech.

Pick it apart bit by bit. But, you know, if you want to, that’s fine too. I would also add on top of that, that if you haven’t seen X yet, we’re gonna be talking about that movie too. Uh, because there’s a lot of back and forth and callbacks to that movie, and we’re gonna be making comparisons, so we’ll be spoiling X for you as well.

So, uh, you can go back and listen to that podcast that we’ve done last week, and this one, or better yet, watch both of those movies before you listen to what we have to say about them, if you really want the full experience, and without being tainted by our bullshit. But anyway, I thought it was interesting, speaking of callbacks, you mentioned how it opened.

And I didn’t read anything about this movie beforehand, I knew nothing about it except that you really loved it and that, you know, I had seen the first movie and I knew that this was shot. After it, and I knew it was a prequel. When you talk about those barn doors opening, it instantly felt Wizard of Oz.

Not just the setting, but it felt like when Dorothy opens the door of her house into the Munchkin City. That was my immediate feeling. And then the score swept up under it and just reinforced that. And then it comes down onto this girl, Pearl, who is Literally dressed like Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz.

Almost exactly down to her pigtails, like her hair and everything. Well, the color 

Craig: scheme. I mean, she’s got the, like, the light blue on top. Dorothy’s in a cute little 

Todd: dress. She’s in more of a dress, and she’s 

Craig: more in overalls. Yeah, Mia Goth is in, uh, yeah, like, overalls. But it’s very reminiscent, and obviously intentionally so.

There are so many calls. to, uh, The Wizard of Oz here. And I loved the, I liked them all. Yeah. I don’t remember. I I’ve read so much about this at this point, but, uh, people were talking about how there are so many connections to The Wizard of Oz and how that’s so great because The Wizard of Oz is, you know, such a great movie.

and one of the scariest movies ever. And people don’t ever talk about it in that context, but it is. And I wasn’t as affected by stuff like that when I was a kid, but my sister was, and she was scared. And I’ve known other little kids who’ve been really scared of The Wizard of Oz. And this has that same kind of creepy atmosphere.

It just works. But, so, there’s already the similarity to X and the way that it opens through the barn doors, but then the next thing you see, um, is Pearl, played by Mia Goth, sitting in front of a mirror, which is the exact same place we met Both of these women, these characters, are introduced in that same way, sitting in front of a mirror.

I don’t remember if Pearl talks to herself, uh, at this point, but she does get up and dance. Um, if you have, if you’ve seen X, She dance, the style in which she dances, is the same. She also dances as an old lady in X after she kills a guy in her driveway. Yeah. And it’s almost identical to this. And, big deal, it’s the same actress.

They’re filming it almost at the same time. Like, okay, it’s, it, it would be the same. It’s so satisfying. Yeah, it is. To be able to draw those connections, small connections. Um, and, but her mother interrupts her dancing. Pearl laments that farm life just isn’t for her. She’s special and she goes out into the barn and she has almost like this big show number dance where she talks to her animals and she dances around and she’s saying how she’s going to be in the pictures and she’s going to be famous and she, uh, says, One day the whole world’s gonna know my name.

You agree, don’t you, Mary? Oh. Why, thank you. And she stands up on the hay bales, uh, at the end of the barn in front of the back door of the barn. And she stands there with her legs splayed and her arms splayed above her, forming a perfect egg. 

Todd: X. Yeah. 

Craig: In the frame. Just little, little simple details. So clever.

You’ll 

Todd: see me for who I am, a star. And this is exactly what Maxine tells herself in the mirror in the very first scene of X, right? She says, you’re a f ing superstar, right? And she’s constantly telling herself that as well. Keep in mind. These are not the same character. They’re played by the same actress, but these are not the same character.

But there’s clearly a through line in how each of these women feel about their lives. I think it seems like, what we’ll see in the, in the sequel, Maxine is able to overcome and escape. Maybe. Her, uh, we’ll see. I have no idea. You know, maybe the middle movie’s more like Empire Strikes Back, you know? It’s not a conclusion that Maxine gets out and goes to greatness.

But, uh, you know, in this movie it’s the same longing, right? Yeah, yeah. And then she sees a goose. She starts walking sinisterly to it with that pitchfork, which we saw her wield successfully, killing a guy in the first movie. And, uh, stabs the goose! I mean, I knew it was gonna happen, because I knew this girl is crazy, but just in case you don’t know, you know, and you’re watching this movie first, you need to know this woman’s crazy.

She stabs the goose and feeds it to her pet alligator, and the title card comes up! Pearl! In this grand font! 

Craig: At, yeah, with the freeze frame of the alligator leaping out of the water to get the goose off of her. You know, it’s great. It’s just great. Um, and you know, obviously if you’ve seen X, you know she’s crazy because she is the killer.

Now that’s a whole other thing too, like, I wondered how this movie was gonna answer some questions for me because one of my questions was… How does Howard play into all of this? Right. Last time when we watched X, I pointed out a line. Um, when Pearl was talking to Maxine, she was showing her pictures on the wall, and there was a picture of her and Howard, I think on their wedding day, or with him in his uniform or something, and she says, he would have done anything for me back in those days.

The very first time I saw that movie, it didn’t mean anything to me, and then the second time I was like, wait! But I still, here, because the situ her situation, Pearl’s situation, is, uh, it’s 1918. Um, she lives on a small farm with her parents. Her mother is a very strict German immigrant, and her father… is a paralyzed invalid, which the mom suggests is a result of the Spanish flu.

I don’t know if that’s a thing. I didn’t look it up, but whatever, it doesn’t matter. He is. He, uh, he can’t, he’s completely, uh, immobile. He can’t talk. Um, he, he appears to be awake and conscious, but he can’t talk. And Pearl is a married woman. But her husband is off fighting in World War I. I don’t remember where I was going with that.

But that’s the 

Todd: setup. I don’t know if you’re going to this place or not, but after, you know, this is all kind of established, we’re up in the bathroom, and Pearl is washing her father, and then she herself strips down and is taking a bath right there in front of him. Which, I thought was interesting. Maybe families were just closer back then, or maybe because she’s a daughter doesn’t mean anything, or maybe it was just 

Craig: a Because she’s married?

I don’t know. Yeah, it was a little weird. And 

Todd: there’s a little moment later where she’s also in the bath where she’s like pinching him and she gets up close to him. They’re just these odd hints of I don’t know if it’s incest well, literally, it is incest, but like, I don’t know if it’s The suggestion here is that she is so sort of sex starved and, and attention starved, uh, that she, that she’s, like, in some way, shape, or form lusting over every man in her life, which, of which there are, like, three, and one is her catatonic dad.

I don’t know, I, the movie doesn’t really go completely down that path, but I feel like it makes a bit of a suggestion there. I don’t know. Anyway, that, that felt off. I, yeah, 

Craig: I, it did. It, it did. It felt off to me, too. I didn’t get the sense that it was an Elektra kind of thing. I, I just thought it kind of spoke more to her just being a little off, being a little crazy.

Like, she’s not concerned with modesty. But, you know, the mom, who is super strict, comes in and seems a little… More than anything, kind of perplexed by what she’s seeing. And Pearl just says, well, I didn’t want to waste the hot water. And the mom, who seems very practical and pragmatic, just seems like, well, okay, that 

Todd: makes sense.

Well, she takes dad out of there. I felt like it, I felt like it’s either that or it was just a battle. She wasn’t really that interested in fighting and, you know, I don’t know. Yeah. But 

Craig: yeah, you’re right. It’s, it’s, I think when it just comes down to it, we just kind of have to accept that Pearl is… Crazy.

And, uh, psychotic in that she takes, I mean, cause she says this outright later. It’s something that, you know, is a conflict within her because she knows it’s wrong, but she enjoys… hurting people, um, and, and things. You know, she killed the goose. Pinching her dad. Yeah. Because he can’t say anything and he can’t fight back.

While at the same The reason I say she’s crazy is because at the same time, I also get the feeling that she genuinely does love her dad. Yeah, more than her mom. Yeah, and, and is compassionate towards him. Now, her behavior would suggest otherwise at times, but I think that that’s a result of her madness, not that she doesn’t genuinely care.

Care for him. Yeah. Anyway, whatever. She gets letters from her husband and, you know, really nice letters, um, but then her mom sends her into town to get medicine for 

Todd: her dad? Yeah, liquid morphine sulfite. I was like, right, wow, that was It’s also a cute time when you could buy almost everything over the counter and half of it would have killed you faster than made you well.

Yeah, 

Craig: cough syrup had like cocaine and cannabis and like, ether. 

Todd: Yeah, nothing was regulated. She picks up the liquid morphine, but then she swings by the movie theater and she goes inside and she tucks in with her mask on, again, you know, you can see kind of people wearing masks and the movie theater isn’t packed and people are spread out.

Just again, just little touches of this. of this era and what was happening. And as she’s watching the silent, this, all the movies were silent at this point, but as she’s watching the silent movie of these dancers on in front of her, the Something or Other Follies, uh, she is imagining herself. in there as a dancer.

And, uh, she leaves, but then, uh, as she leaves, she walks past the al how does she get into that alley? With that guy? 

Craig: Well, she slips into the alley to just take a, uh, she has like a program or a flyer, um, for the movie, and she wants to look at it more closely. closely, in the light, presumably, because it was dark in the theater.

And so she just tucks in there to look at it, and he pops out into the alley, um, which is the door to the projection room, and, and they just strike up a conversation. This guy isn’t given a name, he’s just Projectionist, but, uh, he’s played by David Cornswet, who was just tapped. To be DC’s new Superman.

Yeah. So I don’t know if they saw him in this movie and were impressed. I wouldn’t be surprised because he’s very handsome. 

Todd: Yeah, he could play Captain America too. He’s a nice looking dude. 

Craig: Yeah, very handsome, very tall. I read that he’s going to be the tallest Superman since, uh, Christopher 6’7 or something like that.

No! I know! He doesn’t, it doesn’t seem like he towers over her. I don’t have any idea how 

Todd: tall she is. They just had to put her on boxes then. Geez. I don’t know, 

Craig: but, but he’s very handsome and he comes out and they have a pretty innocent conversation. You like the movies? I like dancing. Oh, future tiller girl.

I can see it now. 

Todd: I wish. Why not? You’re pretty enough.

On account of a husband, 

Craig: I gather. He’s overseas, but… My father’s infirm, so I have to help at home. I’m sorry to hear that. You want to come watch the second 

Todd: show? Free 

Craig: admission. I’m the 

Todd: projectionist. 

Craig: But he, uh, is nice to her, and he cuts out a cell from the film, um, to give to her. And she’s like, well, won’t that mess up the movie?

He’s like, nah, I’m gonna splice it back together, it’s just one cell, nobody’ll even notice. It’s just a nice gesture. Mm hmm. But then, you know, when she’s, uh, riding her bike back home, the cell flies out of her… Overalls pocket into the cornfield and, um, she goes looking for it. Of course she doesn’t find it, but then she’s in this big cornfield and she walks to the center of it.

And I can’t say this every few minutes, but just imagine it in your head that I’m saying it. It’s absolutely stunningly gorgeous to look at like her riding her bike just across the wide frame, both going, Into town and coming back to town. It just looks stunning. These, uh, aerial shots of her in the cornfield.

And she comes upon a scarecrow and… What does she do? She 

Todd: like… Goes up to the scarecrow and, uh, starts to climb up next to it and, uh… And gets in its face. And the Scarecrow is pretty well done. It’s very evocative of um, kind of a cross between Scarecrow from the first Wizard of Oz And did you ever see Return to Oz, that Nightmare movie?

Craig: Of course. Yeah. Yeah. It also looks very much like the illustrations of the Scarecrow in the Frank L. Baum original series. 

Todd: And as she gets up close to the Scarecrow, I was like… She is gonna hump the scarecrow. I know it! I remember her from the second movie, and, uh, by God, she does. She pulls the scarecrow down, and then she starts gyrating on top of it, and is getting off on the scarecrow, and at one point, imagines the projectionist’s face as a flash, which she puts out of her mind.

She’s kind of haunted by these visions of her husband coming home, which I thought was interesting, because I say haunted. They don’t always seem welcome. It’s not necessarily like played in her mind as a great thing that her husband comes home. It’s almost a little bit of dread and I wonder if that’s because she’s not sure what’s going to happen or Once he comes home that’s going to lock her in.

You know, she has no escape route, yeah, anymore. She 

Craig: explains all of that at the end in a, uh, just the most agonizing way. I wanna, like, I wanna say, well, yeah, here’s, here’s what she’s thinking, but I don’t wanna say it because she’s gonna tell us later and I wanna… Save it. Save it. For that. But yeah, I mean, this is an obvious call to the Wizard of Oz, and, and she dances.

First, you know, she, she crawls up, she like, gives it a kiss, she takes its hat off, puts its hat on her head, and then she pulls it down and dances with it for a while, and, and dips it, and that’s when it appears as the projectionist’s face, which startles her, and I think it was, like, she kisses it. Yeah. And then she, when she, when she pulls away, then it’s the projectionist’s face.

And she throws it down and screams, I’M MARRIED! She’s just kind of unhinged. Yeah. I mean, this is her fantasy, but even in her fantasy, she’s conflicted. Like, she knows that she shouldn’t be… Kissing another man, even though it’s not, there’s nobody really there. She’s all up in her head all the time. And then you’re right, yeah, she’s all up in her head all the time, and then, uh, she, well, she shushes it, there’s lots of shushing, which is another callback to X.

But then she, uh, yeah, she, she does hump it before. You know, all of this, so much of it is like family drama. There’s clearly so much tension between Pearl and her mother. And, I read an article, I sent it to you, I don’t know if you got it, that drew all these comparisons to, these ties to the Wizard of Oz.

And I, I think that, um, her mother is kind of a dark Auntie M, who is, Constantly the one who telling her to keep her head out of the clouds, you know, like she says out right Pearl says something like but what about what I want and her mom says something like sometimes it’s not about what you want. It’s about making the best of what you have.

Yeah. And again, her mother isn’t a bad person. No, she’s just very practical and she’s facing incredible hardship. Yep. Which, I’m sure Pearl can’t fully understand. In addition to the fact that she is just crazy, she also seems very childlike. She does have her head in the clouds. Meanwhile, here her mother is taking care of this entire farm by herself.

Pearl alludes to the fact that they’ve had, um, incredible financial struggles. They’ve had to sell off most of their animals. So I, you know, I feel for the mom, too. But! From Pearl’s perspective, all she’s ever hearing is, you know, You’re a dreamer, be real, nothing’s ever gonna happen for you. And, 

Todd: it’s a bummer.

At the same sense what you said cannot, uh, cannot be glossed over, Her mom is also a very sympathetic character, I think. You know, in that very conflicted way, like, You kind of wish she would chill out a bit, and be a little more loving. But in the same sense, when you see what she has gone through, and probably, you know, she expects some gratefulness from her daughter.

And some help! And some help, yeah, you can hardly appreciate it. Plus, on top of that, she’s like, you know how we, like, people look at us German farmers right now. With the war going on, we’ve gotta keep our head down, you gotta like, not be around town so much. Plus, there’s also the pandemic, uh, and so, you know, she’s urging her to stay home in the farm and stay separated, and if she’s going off into town doing this, she’s gonna have to isolate.

And then, she talks about her husband as catatonic, and, and later on, there’s a big blow up where she, she really just spits all this out. How she’s feeling and how she wants some gratitude. And I really felt for the bum. Oh, I did too. So, uh, it was good. It wasn’t She’s just not this strict asshole character.

Uh, who you’re, you can’t wait to see get her demise, who’s holding her daughter back. Like, no, she’s a real person going through some serious issues, and maybe her daughter could help out a little bit, and be a little more sympathetic to her mom, where, at least as sympathetic towards her mom as she is to her catatonic dad who does nothing for her at this point, you know?

Right. I mean, that’s a mean thing to say, but you know what I mean. 

Craig: Right. The woman who plays the mom, Ruth, uh, her name is Tandy Wright, she was the intimacy coordinator on X. And I guess Ty West just liked her. And, and asked her to play this role. She’s not German. She very quickly learned, you know, it was very convincing.

Her, her accent is very convincing. But everybody in this movie is good. Oh, yeah. All of the acting is, you know, Very, very good. And this movie, I mean, normally I would save this, uh, to say at the end, but this movie has been wide, very well received. It’s gotten all kinds of recognition, tons of awards from independent film groups and, um, different film festivals and stuff.

So it’s, you don’t just have to take our word for it, folks. Like, this, this movie has gotten lots and lots of accolades. Um, that’s not to say that everybody will like it, because… I was so excited to watch it with Alan and he didn’t care for it at all and I think that though he didn’t articulate it in this way, I think that he felt that it was style over substance.

Mm hmm. I think that he’s more story driven and I think that he was a little bit bored by it. He wasn’t as mesmerized. by the cinematography and the score as I was. I think he wanted more 

Todd: action. Yeah, I mean, I can see that. There were times where I thought it went a little overboard. But so much of this movie is really riding on Mia Goth’s shoulders, and I think she’s totally up for the task.

Absolutely. But you’ve gotta be in the mood for a movie like that, you know, where it’s very character driven, and it’s one character, and you’re basically just gonna be hanging out with that person through the whole time. Time and I admit even I’m not always in the mood for that kind of film So it’s it’s definitely not as action packed as say X is right 

Craig: and that’s true.

That’s fair He enjoyed X more than he enjoyed this. We okay. So, oh gosh, what 

Todd: else Mitzi? 

Craig: Mitzi comes up with her mom. Yeah, and I knew that this was gonna be a problem. Mitzi is Pearl’s sister in law. Um, Howard’s sister. And the second I saw her, though she is absolutely lovely, she’s sweet, um, she seems to be a genuine friend to Pearl.

Yeah. Upon, upon first seeing her, I’m like, this is gonna be a problem. Because she’s Very pretty, and very blonde, and very blue eyed, and, uh, clearly has more opportunities and avenues than Pearl had. And, I, you can tell that they do have a friendship and a kind of sisterhood with one another. But I also, I’m like, Pearl’s gonna be jealous.

Like, this, uh, this is, some, this, I don’t see this ending well. Yeah. We’re basically just introduced to her. They, they come over, Mitzi and her mother, um, to leave some food, which the mother, it’s, it’s a roast pig, a whole small, like, suckling pig. Looks delicious. It does. And the mother refuses it out of pride.

She says, we don’t take charity. And so Mitzi’s mom just leaves it on the porch. Meanwhile, uh, Mitzi tells that there’s going to be an audition this coming Saturday. This, I think it’s a church group, uh, is auditioning young women. To do, like, uh, dance performances in various parishes around the state. Yeah.

And, and they conspire, because they both think that there’s no way that their mothers would let them go, but they conspire to go together. And one of them, I don’t remember, uh, I think it’s Pearl says to Mitzi, it’ll be our secret. Which is another callback to, uh, X. That’s right. Oh, man. And then, so then she sneaks, she steals, I guess, for lack of a better word, one of her mother’s nice dresses, and sneaks out to go to visit the projectionist.

Yeah, he had And I didn’t, I didn’t know what to make of this at this point. I didn’t really understand yet what her… motivation was. I think ultimately she’s just really excited about this audition and her potential opportunities and she just wants somebody to talk to. Yeah, 

Todd: I, and he seemed to be like, I, I think some of their earlier conversation he alluded to his travels or he talked about seeing her up on the screen, you know, cause they were talking about movies and he said, Oh, you look good up on the screen.

There was some very mild sort of flirting going on there. And he had offered to her anytime she wants to come and see a movie. He’s the projectionist. He can just bring her in. So I feel like all of that was just kind of this little soup. I’m not really sure exactly what motivated her at that moment, but your guess is, is I think pretty good.

And so, yeah, she goes in to meet the projectionist. They have some talk and some chatter and she’s talking about the dance and he’s encouraging her. And I got a sense that he was. This could end in sex, or at least he might be pushing it in that direction. She says, Oh, I want to see that movie. He says, What movie do you want to see?

And she says, Oh, I want to see that movie I saw last time. The Follies movie with the dancing girls. He says, Well, we already saw that one. Let me pull out a movie nobody here has seen. Something I picked up on my travels through France. I picked 

Craig: up, right, because I think that he said he was in the military.

Uh huh. It’s a huge film reel. Like, what, did you just carry it around in your knapsack? 

Todd: I know, that work? It was a different time. Everybody had their film reel knapsack, you know, that they put on their backs. But it’s so funny that here’s another callback to X, because what he shows her is an old stag film, which is a real stag film from that era.

And he says, films like this are gonna revolutionize the industry. He sounds just like… 

Craig: Exactly like it. And he, he’s gonna capitali He’s like, this is gonna revolutionize the industry and I’m gonna be there to capitalize on it. I mean, it’s almost verbatim, um, what Wayne said, uh, in the first movie. And she’s intrigued.

She’s not offended, she’s not And, you know Scandalized. Yeah. You know, you tell this story, you know, she goes, she visits this guy, he’s like, Hey, you want to watch this porno movie? Like, it sounds super skeevy, but it doesn’t even really read that way. Like, I, I think that yes, he is, but he knows she’s married.

So I think that he’s being very cautious, but I do think that he’s thinking that this could potentially progress to something else. He’s got a hope. Yeah. But when it doesn’t. He’s not violent or aggressive at all, you know, they just talk and and, you know, he really kind of tells her you can do whatever you want to, you can be whatever you want to be, you really should go to Europe, there’s so much more, uh, artistic and free there, you could be in the movies, you could even be in this kind of movie, I know I’d watch ya, and as skeevy as that sounds for me to say it, she is beyond flattered, um, and I think that she goes home Feeling really great, and, and thinking that this could really happen for her.

Todd: It, it seems to give her some kind of resolve, because it leads directly into a very tense scene, which I also thought was brilliant. She comes home to her mom crying, which is another… You know, reminder that her mom is in pain here, too. She’s got her own suffering. It’s not just like she’s this horrible woman who loves to make her daughter suffer.

Right. Uh, and then in the morning, uh, she pulls her dad out on one of their walks, I guess, in his wheelchair, and takes him right to the end of the dock. And I mean, as soon as he’s, she’s rolling her down that dock, you’re thinking, Oh, this is… This is where it’s going to happen. This is where it’s all going to start.

And she has, leans in and has this nice little conversation with him. 

Craig: I’m leaving soon. I can’t stay here any longer. Howard was supposed to take me away. It’d be easier for me if I didn’t feel like I was abandoning you.

You understand that?

I love you, daddy, but this is no way to live. 

Todd: With every word she says in here, there’s this very strong implication that she’s gonna push him into the water and feed him to the alligator. As the alligator is coming towards her, which I believe she called. Yeah. And so you’re just waiting for it to happen, and I think for the first time we can see that this dad is more aware than I thought he was, cause there’s a look of terror on his face.

Oh yeah. 

Craig: I knew he, I, I thought from the beginning that he was definitely in there. Oh, 

Todd: I mean, I, I knew he was, he might be somewhere in there, but I didn’t think he could really outwardly express it. But man, could he, he was terrified. And her mom comes to the head of the dock, whatever, what are you doing?

Oh, I was just out talking with daddy about things and, and anyway, that gets defused before it happens, um. But, uh, then she’s walking around calling the alligator and she finds some eggs. Were those alligator eggs? 

Craig: They were alligator eggs. Before they separate, she says to her mom, Why do you hate me, mama?

And the mom says, I only want what’s best. And Pearl says, When do I get what I want? And she says the thing that I already said, Like, sometimes it’s not about what you want, It’s about making the best of what you have. But she also says, Life rarely turns out the way that you expect. I, I think that that’s true.

And I think that the mother is saying that because she’s living it. Like, like, could you quit your bitching, please? 

Todd: Like, look around you. I shouldn’t have to even tell you this. 

Craig: Exactly. And yeah, so Pearl finds some alligator eggs. She stupidly takes one just so that she can carry it up into the barn loft and crush it in her hands.

And when she does that, she, and it explodes in her hands. She envisions Howard exploding in the driveway on his way. You’re absolutely right. I think that she’s conflicted because I do think there’s part of her that wants Howard to come home and there’s another part of her I think that’s also dreading it for the reasons that you already alluded to.

But this is kind of a climactic moment when they’re at the dinner table and the mom pulls out the follies program that Pearl had hidden in the guest house that the people from X had stayed in. Um, and the mom is, Angry. Not that she has gone to the movies, but that she has gone into town and potentially exposed herself to the flu when her dad is infirm.

And so they get into a big fight. Pearl tells her there’s gonna be an audition. The mother absolutely forbids it. Pearl goes on about her dreams, and the mother says like, are we beneath you? Are you too good for us? And Pearl says, you’re only young once. And then, and then Pearl says something like, You have no idea what I’m capable of.

And the mom says, Oh, yes, I do. I’ve seen the things you do when you think, uh, no one is looking. You can’t keep your true self hidden forever. Someday, they will see your true self and they’ll be frightened of you just as I am. Mm hmm. And then, I mean, the mother is sympathetic. What she says here is very hateful, but I totally understand.

She’s angry. She’s at the end of her rope. I understand why she’s so upset. But she says, go ahead and go if you want, and when you fail, know that that’s how I feel every time I look at you. Um, and Pearl says, I just don’t want to end up like you, the mom slaps her, Pearl slaps her back, they get into a physical altercation where they’re shoving one another around, and the mother gets shoved back up against the hearth, and her dress catches fire, and she is entirely engulfed in flame, until Pearl Extinguishes her by throwing a pot of boiling water on her.

Todd: Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. And then she drags her mom down to the basement. Her mom, who is not dead, by the way. No. Thump, thump, thump, thump down the stairs to the basement. And I was thinking back to X. Because, if I remember, we never get to see what is in the basement that’s, that freaks out the… 

Craig: Yeah, it’s the guy strung up with his pants around his 

Todd: ankles.

Is it just that? I, I, it had to be more than that. I don’t know. I thought there must have been more. I thought it was alluded that there was more than that, and, and, and I did kind of wonder if this was also following through that thread, like, yeah, she does a lot in the basement with these things. Anyway, so she drags her mom down to the basement, and she just utterly leaves her dad, almost like she’s forgotten him, and she may 

Craig: have.

Yeah. I think so. And she goes and f s the projectionist. 

Todd: Yeah, exactly. We knew it was going to happen eventually. Right. But he’s like, oh, I better drive you home. And then she gets out of the car and comes inside. And this is when everything starts to get really, really weird for him, right? He’s like… 

Craig: That’s, I have in my notes, the whole thing is so awkward.

Yeah. Like, I mean at this point… She must, she, she has to be almost fully unhinged. She, she runs in to try to kind of clean things up a little bit, including her dad, who has just been stuck there at the dinner table, and she says, I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry, I promise, uh, I’ll take care of you in just a little bit.

And then she invites the projectionist in, and like, this is my dad, and he’s like, okay. He’s also off put because that pig, the suckling pig, is still on the porch, but now it’s covered in maggots. 

Todd: Yeah, this, the metaphor, I call it metaphor pig. Metaphor pig. 

Craig: And, and, he, you know, there’s a mess on the floor from the scuffle, and he hears thumping from…

She takes him upstairs and is trying to bang him again. But he’s not in the mood. 

Todd: No, which, because 

Craig: it’s so, I, who would be? Everything’s so strange, like her invalid father is right downstairs. And then he hears something in the base, er, yeah, the basement. And he won’t let it go. She’s like, it’s nothing, it’s nothing, but he won’t let it go.

And eventually… She, uh, kinda cuts him off at the pass downstairs and says it’s just, it’s the dog. Um, the dog made this big mess when, uh, I was gone. So I, I locked it in the basement. And then they go out to the barn where she is just talking about how she’s gonna be famous and she says, tell me more about Europe and when can we go?

These are my 

Todd: animals, this is my, you know, my cow, this is whatever. She says something, and it has him ask, Oh, she says this is the name of whatever, and he says, well, what’s the name of your dog? She’s like, oh, we don’t have a dog. Right. And he’s like, uh, but you said you have a dog. And, uh, this is where she kind of goes ballistic.

She can see the sort of the weirdness or the fear, whatever, in his face. He’s like, I really need to go now. She’s like, are you scared of me? It’s like, uh, no, I’m not scared of you, what makes you think that? Well, I can just, I can feel people’s feelings, I can tell. And they have this really unpleasant thing where he’s trying to get out, and she’s slowly approaching him, uh, and he just ends up walking off back to the car, he says, I’m going.

She picks up that pitchfork and walks right out the barn. And I love how this scene was shot, because there’s so much tension, because you, I’m almost counting the paces. to the car, right? Like, she’s walking, he’s almost at the car, and then we, we get this shot of him, but still from that same angle, but it’s closer, and I’m thinking, all right, uh, six, five, four, three, two, one, she should be there, and right when I think she should be there, the camera swings around, and she’s not there.

Somehow, she’s on the other side of the car. It makes no sense, but it was… No, 

Craig: it totally does. She just walks out of frame. She walks out of frame and as the camera is sweeping around, she’s sweeping around right behind it. Oh, okay. Uh huh. Oh, I loved it. I thought it was great because he doesn’t, he doesn’t see any of that.

And, and when he gets to his car, he looks back to where she was and is kind of surprised. and relieved not to see her there, like thinking that she has gone back in the barn, but instead, she is on his side, the driver’s side, and she screams, I’m not staying on this farm, and she kills him. Um, stabs him multiple times with the, uh, uh, pitchfork.

The car starts to roll away, his body falls out, and she stabs him a few more times. Um, 

Todd: it’s really brutal. Yeah, right in the other guy. Super brutal, 

Craig: yeah. She goes down and sees, uh, her mom is still alive, and she says, she throws something her mom said back in her face, like, Guess we 

Todd: have to make the most of what we have, or something like that.

Or, or, or, 

Craig: this is, I want you to remember how you feel, that’s the way I felt every time I looked at you. Oh, yeah. Um, or something like that. And then, she cleans up her dad. Puts him in a suit. She puts on a gown, a blood red, long sleeved, high necked, gap, floor length gown. Um, and she comes downstairs and models it for her dad.

And you can tell, like, he’s just terrified. And a single tear runs down his face. And she walks up to him and says, I know you’ll look down on me. And she says this all with perfect calmness and sincerity. I know you’ll look down on me proudly. You are loved. And then she smothers him! 

Todd: With a pillow! And this was one of those classic, uh, you know, it was almost a throwback to classic movies.

We don’t see him smother him, as the action is happening it kind of goes past that and up to a bird in a cage in there that’s twittering around more violently. It’s very classic movie type killing, whereas everything else is pretty brutal in your face. 

Craig: Yeah, that’s true. But then, she, she goes to the audition.

She meets Mitzi at the audition, and they talk, and Mitzi’s like, oh man, I, I hope I get it, and Pearl says, it has to be me. And Mitzi says, well that’s not a very nice thing to say, and Pearl just says, it has to be me. We’re like, yeah, it better 

Todd: be, it has to be me, or otherwise, yeah, she needs to get out of there.

Craig: When it’s Mitzi’s turn, she gets cold feet, so Pearl goes in first, stands on a X, a taped X, on the stage, in front of a panel of judges, and the music starts playing, and she’s dead faced, and then the music starts playing, and right on the upbeat, when she starts dancing, she puts on this huge smile, and does this whole…

And I don’t even know what to think of this. Yeah, like, it’s, it’s super fun to watch. It’s not like, oh my god, Mia Goth must be a professional dancer. It looks like what a young midwestern girl… Would emulate based on what she’s seen in the movies. It’s a 

Todd: little awkward, but it looks You’re right. It looks a little stilted.

It looks a little awkward. It looks a little pathetic, but not overly so. She’s not embarrassing herself. No, but 

Craig: she’s 

Todd: giving it her all. And, and then as the number goes on, we’re now in her mind, and the, you know, the curtains part further on the stage, and there’s this huge animated backdrop where now she’s in the war, and there’s things dropping, backup 

Craig: dancers, 

Todd: and it’s, and it seems a lot more polished, right, so it’s this kind of, I think, what’s happening in her head, uh, and then she stops and freezes, And the very stone faced, uh, four, panel of four down there, the guy looks at her and says, Thank you, but it’s gonna be a no.

And he says, We’re looking for something younger, more all American, and blonde. And the minute he says that, I remembered what she had said in Acts when she’s standing at the end of the dock and she pushes the one girl into the, into the water. Her husband Howard had come up behind her and… He said something to her and she said, You know I’ve never liked blondes.

Yeah. It’s just so great that they could they could film both of these movies together and write them, you know, together because a lot of cool opportunities for these kind of, consistency is what it is. 

Craig: I know that this woman is a psychopath, but I, my heart breaks for her in this moment. Because she is absolutely devastated, um, to the point of a complete breakdown.

And, and he says to her, we need somebody blonde, you know, someone with that X factor. Ugh. And she’s looking out, and um, in the panel of judges, she picked one of them. is now her burned mother. And she’s, she is screaming and wailing, No, no. And one of the last things that she wails is, Please, somebody help me.

She is so desperate. And Mia Goth is just amazing. I am, I am so impressed with her talent, um, as an actress. This scene is just absolutely heartbreaking. And, and then after they finally pull her out, the next time we see her, she’s sitting on a sofa. the church as Mitzi comes around the corner, and Pearl is just wailing.

Todd: Yeah, it’s a comfortable, I mean, from the gut kind of wailing. It’s not movie wailing, it is deep. Sad, like, wailing I find at a funeral. 

Craig: I’ve only heard that kind of wailing once in my life, and, and it’s, it’s absolutely heartbreaking. But Mitzi, uh, takes her home, and they have a sister in law heart to heart at the kitchen table, and I have in my notes…

Maybe Pearl says something like this, Mitzi is so nice, but she just doesn’t understand. Yeah. And Pearl says, All I want is to be loved. I’ve been having a real hard time without it lately. Mitzi says, Well, you know, why don’t you tell me what’s wrong? And she says, I don’t think I could tell you, and I wouldn’t feel right talking about Howard to his sister.

And she says, Well, just pretend I’m Howard. 

Todd: Bad idea. And 

Craig: so, I feel terrible for Mitzi too because she, I, I think she’s genuinely concerned. Um, I, I think she really wants to help. I think that she wants to be there for Pearl, but she has no idea what she’s getting into. And this is when Pearl does speak to Mitzi as though She is Howard, and she confesses that she’s resentful of Howard because even though he came from a life of privilege, he was just satisfied to, you know, work on the farm.

And, and she had married him because she believed that he would take her away. And then he went off to Europe and abandoned her, and she had found out that she was pregnant, and she was relieved when she lost the baby. Um, and all of this is pretty heartbreaking, and for a little while… It’s cutting back and forth, so that you can see Pearl’s delivery, but also Mitzi’s reaction, and Mitzi is just very still.

Um, you can tell that she’s shocked by what she’s hearing, but she’s just very still. And then, at some point, the camera locks on Pearl, and stays on her for like, five and a half minutes. The entire monologue is eight minutes. It’s an incredibly long time, and the delivery is just absolutely And I don’t know if I breathed for that eight minutes.

Todd: Yeah, I have to say I thought it was a bit much. I don’t know why, I was just growing a little impatient. And I think part of it, well, don’t get me wrong, her acting was fantastic, and anyone who can pull this off half as well as she did it, deserves like an Academy Award. And, and she never once… Was unconvincing and I was interested in what she had to say and it filled in a few gaps But I felt got a little pretentious going on for so long and I was feeling an impatience Maybe you you know, I think another person could argue.

That was what was intended. You’re supposed to feel uncomfortable You’re supposed to be in Mitzi’s shoes here and uncomfortable Having to stare at this woman and hear her say what become increasingly dark And, uh, murderous confessions, basically. Um, but in this very scared way, like a child who has no clue what to do, and uh…

And 

Craig: she knows what the things that she’s done are bad, but she wants to be better. And she wants to make things right. 

Todd: What do you say to that? You know, how do you, where do you go from there? Like, there’s, what, you know, you can’t help this woman. Nobody can help this woman, you know, outside of a doctor, and some major therapy, and she might end up…

On medication, if they had such stuff back then. It would have been electroshock therapy, but you know. Yeah, most probably. But yeah, for me, oh god, I kinda wanted Once I realized what was going on I was like, more distracted by how much longer is this shot gonna be and it irked me a little bit. This is one of those spots where I felt it went on a little too far and I did actually lose a little bit of interest.

I was like, I got the point. I don’t need all the finer details. I feel like most of that was filled in quite skillfully. without being set out right by everything that had preceded it in the movie. Yeah, 

Craig: I get what you’re saying. I, I, I think I appreciated it kind of as a moment of self realization for Pearl.

Uh, I also felt very much like I was seeing all of this through Mitzi’s eyes and to have all of this dumped on you, uh, I can only imagine how frightening that would be. I don’t know, I think I was, I read, um, Viewer reviews and I, several people said that they saw this movie in the theater and that for those eight minutes, you could have heard a pin drop like the, the, the room was just absolutely silent as she was delivering this and, and when it’s over, she says, you know, she’s crying and sniffling throughout.

Subtly, and in the end, she says, she knows she’s done bad things, but she wants to make it right. And then she looks up at Mitzi and says, you won’t tell anybody, will you? And she says, it can be our little secret, Mitzi, which again, she says to Maxine and uh, X, and then Mitzi gets up and she’s like, okay, Pearl, um, I think I better go now.

She’s obviously terrified, but she’s trying to 

Todd: be cool. Well, it’s a callback to, um, what’s his name? The Projectionist. She is now in the exact same position the Projectionist was in earlier. Right. We almost know how this is going to end. Well, right. It’s foreshadowed. And 

Craig: she walks out, and the camera tracks in front of her as she’s walking down the driveway.

And in the background, you see Pearl walk out in her red dress, slowly. Casually, walk to the wood chopping stump and pull out the axe and start following Mitzi in slow pursuit. Which Mitzi 

Todd: sees, and starts freaking out, and it is a very awesome, very long tracking shot where You know it’s gonna happen, but it takes place in real time.

Ha ha ha ha! Mitzi stumbles a little bit. She gets up. Pearl’s just getting closer and closer and closer. And she axes her a couple times in the back. And then Mitzi is laying on her back. Interestingly enough, As brutal as this was, it’s not like there was blood flying everywhere. It’s not like there was any shot of the axe hitting the body or anything like that.

Um, which I was actually kind of grateful 

Craig: for. Well, yeah, I mean, you don’t want to see this poor innocent girl terribly brutalized. But Mitzi rolls over and says, No! Please! I’ll do anything you want! It’s not about what I want anymore, Mitzi. It’s about making the best of what I have. And, and she kills her.

And I think that she really has adopted that, that point of view at this point. Um, she goes in, she goes in and she lays down with her mother who is now dead for a while. And it’s almost as though she reconciles with her mother. Uh, almost like… You were right. I know you, you know, you only meant well. Um, she kind of has this little moment of reconciliation, but then she, she chops up Mitzi and feeds Feeds 

Todd: her to the alligator.

This is where it, you know, it just gets very, I mean again, it’s very, I think this is what one of the things you were talking about earlier when you were like, you know, it was beautifully presented as gruesome as it was. And it’s these close ups of her head, very convincing, by the way, close ups of the head getting chopped off and the legs and everything.

These don’t look like prosthetics, but it’s all on split screen as well. 

Craig: But did you notice, as soon as I saw that this time, I don’t know if I noticed it the first time, at this point, the style starts to turn towards the style of X. Yeah. Because X made use of those split screens throughout. We’ve not seen them in this movie yet.

But, and I just thought that that was such a clever way of showing a turning point. 

Todd: Yeah, that’s, no, that’s a very good point actually, you’re right. Cause it, it stylistically doesn’t fit with the 19, I mean there was… It wouldn’t have happened like this. This was definitely a 70s 

Craig: kind of keeping with the rest of the movie.

So to me, it indicates a change. Um, and I think that’s great. And, and I think that what her plan is, is she’s going to, you know, make the most of what she has. And what that means is making a comfortable home for Howard to come home to. Yeah. Which, ironically, he does, presumably within… A couple of days, because he walks in, uh, calling her name, very excited, and, uh, he walks into the kitchen to find the dead parents seated at the table with the metaphor pig in between them, flies everywhere.

Almost 

Todd: completely decomposed, and it’s, uh, I mean, if you really… I mean, I don’t think this is a coincidence either, talking about ties to X, and X being heavily inspired by Texas Chainsaw Massacre. This is 100% a scene from that movie. He comes in, he looks at her, and he’s kind of horrified, what’s going on?

And she comes out with a pitcher of lemonade, is it? Which we see in X, right? There’s the whole lemonade thing. And she gets this big smile on her face, and she goes, Oh Howard, I’m so glad you’re home. And the end comes across it just like it does in those old movies. And then, as it often does in these old movies, the film is still going while the credits are coming up on the screen over it.

And now it’s going for an uncomfortably long time while she is frozen, not freeze framed, just frozen in this smile where you just see… a whole range of emotions where it’s, it becomes like there’s a tear that falls out of her face, her smile’s kind of hard to manage, and now it looks really, really forced, and it just looks like the inner turmoil of hers, just everything that’s going on in her mind just slowed down considerably and presented for us visually.

It’s really effective, and I thought, what a smart thing to do, and man, when Mia Goth and uh, Tai West wrote this movie, What an interesting idea that she must have come up with, like, stay in my face and I’m just gonna hold this and I’m gonna show you all this stuff. No! I go into the trivia and I read that he just didn’t yell cut.

Yeah. It was just a thing he came up with on the spot or whatever. A lot of that uncomfortability is her, like, begging, can you please yell cut inside her head? 

Craig: Well, it’s great. I think that it shows, you know, that… She’s shattered, you know, she’s, she’s trying so hard to keep the mask from slipping, and she’s just fighting it with all of her might, and she just barely can do it.

It is, it’s, it’s great, and it would be, like, it would be so difficult, um, as an actor, to do that, to stay in that moment. 

Todd: Super professional. It reminds me of The End of the Graduate, which was one of my all time favorite movies. And something very similar happens there, remember, where Dustin Hoffman and what’s her name’s character break out of the wedding, and they hop on the bus, and now they’re gonna escape, and they’re in the back of the bus, and they’re looking at their pursuers, who are now far in the distance, and then they turn around, and they sit there, and it keeps going, and it’s like, suddenly this uncomfortable, like, these looks on their face, like…

Just say, now what? What are we doing? We got what we wanted, now what? It’s this very real moment, and the same thing happened in that movie as well. The director just purposely didn’t yell cut. And I started 

Craig: to talk about it very early on, um, and then I got lost in my train of thought. What I was getting at was I really wanted to know how Howard played into all of this, because um, in the second movie He’s murderous as well, and so, I guess that the suggestion here is that the most influential force in his life was his love for her.

And that he just continued to cover for her however necessary, you know, he would do anything for her back in those days. Um, but it’s jarring to see this young, fresh faced guy coming home to what should be the beginning of his life. Having just probably been through the most traumatic experience of his life, only to walk into this nightmare.

Uh, that’s really, it’s interesting. And 

Todd: in X, you know, there’s this point in which Howard walks the kids down to the cabin, and I don’t remember if it was then or if it’s later, but he directly says something to one of the kids about how, you know, you young people don’t come in and stir up my wife like young…

You young people often come in and, and, and get her going and Yeah, he tells them to be discreet. Yeah, and you’re not really sure exactly what he means, like what he’s afraid of, but I can see now from this movie, right, this guy is hearing the stories from her about how all of these people that she trusted or that she thought were going to help her and whatnot, just sort of, in her mind anyway, turned on her, right?

She thinks that her friend Mitzi got the part and she’s lying about it. She thought the projectionist was going to take her to Europe and that became clear. He, he wasn’t going to do that. And so I do wonder too, if Howard kind of adopts this mindset that, you know, maybe a lot of this isn’t her fault. And that’s why.

He gets a rotten attitude, uh, towards outsiders and kids, and why they just hold themselves up there, you know. That and PTSD. Ha ha ha ha. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t, gosh, I, I’ve been wanting to talk about this, uh, for so long, and I, uh, Honestly, I’m sure there are people who disagree, you know, it’s got a pretty good rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

Like I said, it was well received critically for the most part. It won a lot of awards, you know, there’s a whole list. If you go to Wikipedia and look it up, there’s a whole big long list of all the awards. Mia Goth won Best Actress and Best Villain at a bunch of different film festivals. It won Best Horror Movie of the Year.

Uh, at a bunch of different festivals and stuff like that. Um, so it’s been received very well, but from personal experience, I know that it’s not everybody’s cup of tea, but I will go on record as saying, in terms of cinematic quality, I think that this is one of the best movies that we’ve ever reviewed on 

Todd: the podcast.

Well, yeah. I mean, couple this with X, which we were Similarly glowing about, and I can’t wait to see Maxine. I cannot wait to see what Time West does with Maxine! And it’s supposedly set in the 80s. Is he gonna cop an 80s style? That’ll be fun. I don’t know. You know, I can’t wait. It’s like my favorite era 

Craig: Right, right.

Like i’m thinking like gritty like maniac type vibes or something like that I don’t know. I i’m sure he’ll surprise us Um, and I and I hope um that we are Pleasantly surprised, because, man, it’d be a letdown if it sucks. 

Todd: Yeah. Well, my guess is Maxine is gonna don a hockey mask and start haunting people in their dreams.

Craig: At a summer camp, for sure. And then, uh, at the end it’ll turn out she has a teeny peeny. And she’ll just stand and scream. Yes, that’s 

Todd: right.

Well, thank you so much for listening to this episode and thank you for your support, patrons. Uh, if you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. You can find us online just by searching Two Guys in a Chainsaw podcast and, uh, hit us up on Twitter, hit us up on Instagram, hit us up on our Facebook page.

Send us some requests. Let us know, uh, what movie you’d like us to do next. Until next time, I’m Todd and I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

There is so much to love about Tai West’s X that we couldn’t help going over time to gush over it. Suffice it to say that we were big fans of this flick that chronicles a group of youngsters heading out into the farmlands to shoot a porno movie and end up getting much more than they bargained for.

X (2022)

Episode #352, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: This week, uh, we are doing a very modern film. Uh, last week we had a pretty classic movie from 1971. This one is 2022’s X. Rated R. By Ty West. Written and directed. 

Craig: That was a really funny… That was a really funny pause.

X. Rated R. 

Todd: Remember when trailers were like that? A couple weeks ago we did a film that you insisted was a porn movie. This movie is a movie about the making of a porn movie that goes awry. In what many would consider the golden age of pornography in the U. S. That actually sounds really silly to say it out loud, but it’s true.

In the 1970s, and uh, this is by Ty West, and I am a big fan of Ty West. I believe we’ve done the Innkeepers on here, haven’t we not? Yeah, we have, 

Craig: but didn’t he also do, um, House of the Devil? House of the Devil, yeah. But you didn’t like that one. 

Todd: No, remember, um, I didn’t initially like it, and then when we, when I re watched it again for the podcast, I realized it was actually quite good, and it was right up my alley, and so I did come around to it, and I, I listened again to that episode recently, just to kind of warm myself up, because I also wasn’t sure if I had revised my opinion on House of the Devil, but I’m here to Set the record straight, and episode number, I don’t know, 250 something.

Haha, bear me out. That, that I, I, I turned out, I, I actually appreciate House of the Devil a lot. Because, it had that 70s vibe. I think I was a little more in the mood for it then. I still maintain it was a slow movie. You kinda had to be in the mood for it. But a lot of 70s horror films were like that. They were very, it was kind of a time of the film auteur.

And I feel like this movie is a bit of a throwback to it. Now you sent me, uh, a screenshot of something that I sent you a year ago when this movie came out. This movie came out in 2022, March ish. And, uh, it was, uh, basically like a new 1970s style slasher movie from Ty West is being compared to Texas Chainsaw Massacre and is a throwback to that era.

I think for sure the film captures that era, and I think there are beats in this movie and aspects of this movie that are clearly trying to cop the 70s. film vibe, but it’s not like House of the Devil. House of the Devil was trying to kind of be like a movie from the 70s. I feel like this movie had flashes of it, but this wasn’t like trying to be a movie from the 70s.

It was hearkening back to it. It obviously takes place in the 70s. It was a bit of a nod to it, and definitely a nod. to Texas Chainsaw Massacre and other films of its ilk, but it also had some modern sensibilities in what I would say like the cinematography and the filmmaking style. Yeah, 

Craig: I, you’re right, in that it feels like a modern movie, but I just think that Ty West Has a really strong sense of style.

Yes, and that’s not to say that his style is always the same I think that he experiments with style and that’s what makes him so interesting house of the devil definitely Felt mostly like you were watching a movie that was made in the 70s This doesn’t it feels like you’re watching a very well made modern movie about that time But also in doing that He just wants to remind you every once 

Todd: in a while.

Yeah, that’s a good way 

Craig: of putting it. That we’re in the 70s stylistically. So, like, the opening, and I may get my terminology wrong because I don’t know the technicalities of filmmaking, but the opening shot is of, like, it could be a shot out of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. It’s just kind of a long shot of a farmhouse.

You know, isolated in this rural environment, um, and it looks like it’s shot on 8mm. Am I, is that right? Like, the film strip that our 

Todd: parents… Yeah, like, well, our parents would shoot on 8mm. Uh, I think a lot of films… Like, for cinema, we’re at least 16mm. There was hardly anything shot on 8. So you’re probably thinking more like 16, 

Craig: but yeah.

Right, but like, it’s like a square. Mm hmm. It’s framed like a square. Yeah. And I thought, the initial image, I’m like, Oh, it’s old school, it’s old fashioned, this is what we’re getting. But then, it zooms in and you realize that it’s not that film. He’s just framed the shot from inside a barn. So those are the barn doors framing it that way.

Yeah, it’s a cool trick. It’s really, really cool, and, and he does that in other places too, not, well, I mean, he does do the framing thing again in other places, but he does other things that just kind of remind you, this is 70s, this is a different time, stylistically. Yeah. I just think it’s so clever. I’m so excited to talk about this movie because I think it’s so good.

I just think it’s such a good movie. 

Todd: It is. It kind of hits on every level, and I just have to say, based on my experience so far, we’ve done two, well we did House of the Devil, we did The Innkeepers, and I believe we also did The Sacrament. Am I right? I know I’ve at least seen The Sacrament. I don’t know if we covered it on our podcast.

Craig: Was it the one? I don’t, no, I don’t know. 

Todd: I don’t know, what is it? That was the one, it’s like, it’s like a found footage film that’s about sort of this weird Christian esque cult, uh, like in the Philippines, and uh, things kind of go horribly wrong. 

Craig: Oh, oh, it’s like a Jim Jones thing. Yeah. Like, yeah, drinking the Kool Aid.

I don’t remember if we did it either. I’ve watched it several times. I didn’t even remember that that was, I didn’t remember that that was a Ty West film. 

Todd: Yeah, he’s just brilliant. Honestly, brilliant. He’s, yeah, he’s really, 

Craig: really good. 

Todd: I honestly don’t have a bad thing to say about any of his films that I’ve seen so far.

And he’s done a little outside of horror. I haven’t seen that stuff. He took a little break for a while and did some television stuff. Or he did like some episodes of the Scream series and some other series. The sacrament, didn’t that come out of a segment in VHS, uh, VHS or something? 

Craig: Uh, I don’t know about that.

He at 

Todd: least did a segment of one of the VHS ones. And we’ve talked about it before, that him and Adam Wingard seem to kind of like, be of the same school in a way, and they’re clearly friends, and they… Seem to help each other out and even act and and write for each other in each other’s movies And and and I am also a major fan of Adam Wingard.

I’ve really come around on him I kind of like Ty West better, but I don’t know I I just like I I just loved every minute of this movie I 

Craig: know because it’s so good and not only like just watching it if I knew nothing else about it I would watch it and say wow, that was great. Like the cinematography is good the acting It’s fantastic.

Like, it’s so good. It’s so, so good. And compelling! Like… These people, this centers around a group of, I mean, let’s just put it out there, pornographers. Like, the producer, I guess, the director, and the performers. And that, I think, just, I guess, I shouldn’t say for other people, but for me, you say that, and I think, oh, seedy.

You know, like, these are kind of seedy people. And the movie just totally flips that on its head, and that’s the one of the things that I love the most about it. These are… Oh my god, I might cry about it. Uh, these are, these are, uh, good, decent people. Yeah, just trying to make some money. Right, and you’re interested in them, and you’re…

Oh my gosh, I was just captivated. I don’t, I don’t know where to start. 

Todd: I mean, it’s, it was obvious and this is, you know, you can so take the easy route on this thing and you can really make this a Sort of paint by numbers movie and follow a lot of tropes. These people go out Onto a farm that they’ve rented to do a porn movie in the 70s, which, like I said, was sort of a heyday of porn, where probably anyone with some money and a 60mm camera could go out, shoot people having sex, and have a fair chance at getting a decent enough distribution to make a lot of money out of it.

And so… I, do I really want to go on record and say I’m kind of jealous that I wasn’t born in this time period? Just like I’ve, you know, like, when we talked earlier about movies, about some of the horror movies that we do, and about how the early 80s and mid 80s were a golden age for VHS, you know? And uh, exploitation films, horror films, like, you talk to producers of this era, and they’re like, we could not put this stuff out fast enough.

Right. That is how. Hungry the market was and how much money there was to be made in even dress. Oh, yeah. Could sell because the rental market was booming and stuff you could put out that would be sellable on VHS you would make money from and so I feel like in a similar way this was a similar age for pornography and you could take the easy way out and be like Oh, these are like dirty, seedy people who are taking advantage of women, who are cajoling them into doing things that they’re not particularly comfortable with, but some of them are drug addicts and they need money, or some of them are whatever, you know, like, you could go all these sort of stereotypical ways, but like you just said, that is not what this is at all.

No. This is a bunch of normal, fine, fun people who are just… Happy and free who are gonna go out and make a movie and the dude financing it is not this like Hair slicked back, you know, New York mafia connected dick. No, he’s a little slick, but he’s a nice guy He’s a good guy. Yeah, he comes across. It’s like this, Texas boy with money kind of thing, but he’s young.

He’s nice he’s He plays the role of a good producer, who’s just like, I’m here to make everybody comfortable, and help keep everybody happy, so that we can make this movie, and I’m gonna like, talk about how much money we’re all gonna make from this, and this is the beginning of everyone’s career, and isn’t this great?

You don’t feel like he’s taking advantage of anybody, and you don’t also feel like anybody in this movie is doing it against their will, everyone is aspiring to greatness. From the writer and director, to his girlfriend assistant, to the few stars in this movie, and him. You just don’t feel sorry for or bad about these people.

And it’s a great way to kick things off. Yeah, I mean, 

Craig: it feels like an… Fun. You, you, you, yeah, well, I mean you alluded to the nasty underbelly of the adult industry in which Historically there has been, and surely even today there is, you know, uh, It existed, 

Todd: and probably still does, like, let’s not, let’s not paint over that.

Let’s definitely… 

Craig: Right, where, you know, people are taken advantage of and abused, and I’m sure that that did happen in the industry, I’m sure it continues to happen in the industry, but… This just is a different side of it that I’m sure also exists, and I, like, I just, I almost enjoyed hearing about it.

There is a conversation in the middle of the movie that I am just going to insist that you play in full, because I was so taken aback by it. And I said before, when we were talking about that porny lesbian vampire movie, I said, I support sex workers, and I do. People who are in it… You know of their own free will and and who are comfortable with what they do like Good for you, you know.

Right. And, and that’s what this seems like. Anyway, but, that’s, uh, It’s almost beside the point, except for that it’s not. That’s why I was so into this movie. Right. It was because of the characters. Now, it is a slasher movie. You’re rooting And that’s, you’re absolutely right. It could have been so easy to make these seedy people, and then we would relish.

Seeing them being tortured and killed. 

Todd: Isn’t that generally the form of it? Yes. Like, we literally talked about Like, last week, clearly the movie was setting up a bunch of horrible people that we would take delight and glee in seeing die. Right. 

Craig: And we’ve said it, it may have been a while, but, you know, we’ve said it a bunch of times when we’ve watched slasher movies.

It’s just a bunch of assholes. You know, like, okay, so here’s this group of assholes and they’re gonna go and get picked off. And that’s fine. That’s fun. We have fun with that. But this, um, is totally different. It’s just… I think, God, there are so many things about this movie that would turn some people off.

Um, the fact that it’s, that pornography is a central part of the story, which it is. Uh, the fact that it is a slasher movie where people are violently killed. Yes, that is true. I can understand why people would object on those levels, but… Beyond that, this is just a movie that everybody should see, just because it’s a really good movie.

Like, I, I want Rick, I want my mom to watch this. Like, mom, mom, mom, it’s a really good movie. I know, I know. I know. They’re porn actors. I know it’s a slasher. I’m telling you, it’s a, it’s a really good movie. Yeah, I mean, you already set it up. I mean, this is exactly what it is. Uh, this, this group of folks, well, I guess there’s, there’s a bookend.

It opens on the shot of this country house, and it looks like it’s the old film, but it’s not, and you see what appears to be the local sheriff walking by a body. It’s covered with something, but what is obviously a body, and a huge body. Yeah. Yeah. pile of blood and Blood and carnage just everywhere leading all the way up to the front door and you see again They’re covered but more bodies inside like it’s a This terrible scene and then of a crime.

Yeah. Yeah the deputy I mean it feels very much like Texas Chainsaw Massacre. That’s how Texas Chainsaw Massacre opens, right? Mm hmm, like the reporters going through the house and stuff feels very much like that The deputy is like hey sheriff you need to come see this and he leads him down to the basement and whatever he sees is shocking to him, but we don’t see it.

Yeah, 

Todd: so annoying. And then, 

Craig: right, I know. And then we cut to, uh, 24 hours earlier in a different place, and the main character, Maxine, is sitting backstage somewhere in front of, you know, a lit mirror. Yeah, like a dressing room. Like a dressing room, and, and she, she snorts. It’s a line of coke, she looks, I mean, she’s got the Farrah Fawcett hair and, um, pretty heavy makeup, scantily dressed, so you get a sense of, you know, where we are.

And uh, her boyfriend, who it also turns out is this producer. Comes in and talks to her and said she looks herself in the mirror and says you’re a f ing sex symbol And she does this several times. Yeah, I could talk for the next hour about Mia Goth this girl Came out of nowhere for me and has blown me away now, um spoiler alert We’re doing this movie because I desperately desperately wanted to do it and also because I’ve already seen The prequel and we’re gonna be doing that too.

Yeah, Mia goth is Amazing. I don’t know a whole lot about her but I I feel like she is a real up and coming star and as Great as she is in this movie Todd Just f ing wait. Just 

Todd: wait. Wait till 

Craig: Pearl, huh? Mhmm. Uh, she’s so good. But everybody in this movie is good. So, it’s her. She’s Maxine, and then her boyfriend, Wayne, is played by a guy named Martin Henderson.

He’s been in a bunch of stuff. And then the other actress is Bobbie Lynn, played by Brittany Snow. I really am a big fan of Brittany Snow. I’ve never seen her in anything that I didn’t enjoy her in. She started out in TV, in this show that was like about 1950s Americana, because she is, uh… Just the picture perfect American girl, blonde hair, blue eyes, beautiful.

As it turns out, also a really good actress. She was in the Pitch Perfect movies. Thought she was great in those movies! And then there’s RJ, who is… The camera man. He’s played by a guy named Owen Campbell, his shy girlfriend, who’s also the boom operator. , right. Lorraine played by Jenna, art Ortega, who is like the it girl of the moment right now, right?

Yeah. She is all over the place. Um, this is just, I think just before she broke out into huge stardom and now, you know, she’s a, a huge star. And then the actor. In their film to be, uh, is Jackson played by Kid Cudi, who’s a rapper. I don’t know anything about his music, but he’s very handsome and he does a really good job in this movie, uh, as far as acting is concerned.

And they are going off, as you said, to this farm where they’ve rented like a guest house, I 

Todd: guess. Like a guest house back in the fields behind the farmhouse. 

Craig: Right, and they’re going to film a movie called The Farmer’s Daughters. 

Todd: Yeah. And they’re super excited about it. And, and the movie, it really does, like, you don’t even need to be told, you don’t even need…

I mean, if you’re at all familiar with Texas Chainsaw Massacre, it almost beat for beat in the beginning is kind of like, kind of similar. They go off to a gas station, and they go inside, and they pick up things, and there’s a woman there, and they, there’s a TV playing that, there’s this preacher still on TV, sort of going on and on about sin, and about sex, and pornography, yeah, I mean it’s, That bit’s a bit on the nose and then they move past an accident with a cow in the road where there’s this cow That’s just been completely hit by a truck and it’s it’s it’s pretty gross all these sort of portend what might what will be coming but then they pull up this huge farmhouse and Wayne goes up and knocks on the door and Instantly is met by this older guy who it takes a while for us to see his face In fact, it’s almost not toward Until toward about the end of the movie that we actually get a clear look at this guy’s face.

Um, he’s kept fairly mysterious, but he’s this old, very slow moving guy with a giant rifle. You from 

Craig: the county? This is private property. Didn’t you see the signs down at the end of the drive? Oh, easy, partner. Yo, trespassing. And the law says I can shoot. Sir, I ain’t from the county. I’m from Houston. Yo, we spoke on Tuesday.

You remember? About y’all’s boarding house. Oh, that’s right. You’re looking for a place to stay.

You never can be too careful with strangers. 

Todd: But instantly, this man is sort of put off as a little weird and sinister because he moves slow, he kind of stops and coughs, and they say, are you okay, are you alright, and then suddenly he’ll just like, jump up and be like, I’m fine, and keep moving along. And 

Craig: Ty West is intentional.

at not showing us his face. It’s not like It’s so maddening. It’s very, very intentional that he’s shot from mostly behind or it cuts away Right. Um, and you do eventually see more of his face. I guess you see most of it but it’s almost always in the dark and even from the very very beginning and then throughout, there’s just something Yeah.

Todd: It feels a little sinister. Yeah. I remember the 

Craig: first time I watched it, both him and the old woman, because eventually he does, he’s like, oh yeah, I remember you, and he takes them down, uh, to the cottage, but before they go down there, Um, Maxine looks up and sees an old woman, and watching them from the second story, and you don’t see her much either, only from behind or like through the curtains from a distance.

Um, eventually you do see more of her, and I remember the first time watching this, I was squinting my eyes, like, What’s going on with, who are these people? Because something just, something doesn’t look right. What were you, I mean, were you, were you 

Todd: thinking that? Oh, of course. He’s very much setting these people up to be sinister villains.

And it’s very intentional because the rug is pulled out from under us a little bit later on. It’s, it’s a classic setup of these city slickers come into a countryside where they’re a bit out of water and they don’t really understand and know the culture or whatever. You know, they’re in a place where they’re more or less not welcome.

I mean, even though he leads them down there and stuff, he has a very brief conversation with these folks and then immediately says, I don’t like you guys. Right. 

Craig: And, and my wife is around, so… Like, lay off her. Use, use your discretion. He, he basically tells them to be discreet. Mm hmm. I, I think he has some sense that there’s gonna be some funny business going on.

Now, I don’t… know. No, I don’t know if he, I don’t, I don’t think he’s like, Oh my goodness, they’re getting ready to shoot a porn hero. No. I don’t even know if he knows that that’s necessarily even a thing. thing, but here’s a bunch of sexy people, you know, scantily clad and what he knows there may be some funny.

So he tells them to be discreet. We know they’re going to be making a dirty movie. Um, but, from the very beginning, there’s talk about it, because Lorraine, uh, who, uh, the producer guy always calls Churchmouse, cause she doesn’t, she’s so quiet, and she just kind of, you know, watches everything. Um, she’s really skeptical about the film that her boyfriend is shooting, but her boyfriend says…

It is possible to make a good dirty movie and that’s what we’re gonna do. Yeah, and you’re right like this is It’s kind of at the advent of erotica, porn, whatever has been around forever, but this was really kind of the first time that it was easily accessible on home media. You know, like home media period was a brand new.

And 

Todd: it was really not, yeah, it was just barely coming into the scene at this time. I mean, 1979 is when this takes place. It really wasn’t until a few years later that rental stores were opening up and VCRs were more affordable. The whole Betamax and VHS thing was going back and forth. Ultimately, these people are hoping, you know, to print their movie and show it in theaters and get distribution and then go on and do more.

Yeah. Um, and I think one of them mentioned something about, I predict that, you know, people will be able to get it in their homes real 

Craig: soon. Uh huh. And it’s gonna blow up. 

Todd: It’s gonna blow up. Like, actually, it’s quite prescient in that. They’re on the right track, honestly. 

Craig: Well, right, and that’s what I was gonna say, like, this guy is…

A filmmaker and he says at some point you got to start somewhere and a lot of the people that we have talked about on this podcast Started in this yeah started or at some point Dabbled in this industry because it was work. You know, it was Camera work it was getting your foot in the door It was meeting people and and learning stuff and and there were people like RJ this guy who wanted to Who really were filmmakers.

Yes, non simulated sex was part of the movies that they were making, but they were making movies. Uh, and I, it’s not important to the plot necessarily, but I just appreciate, I don’t know, it feels really character driven. Yeah. Because at its core… It is a slasher movie and we get there that, you know, these old people are crazy and they are going to kill them.

Yeah. But there’s so much more to it. Like that’s, it seems like, okay, this is a slasher movie. So that’s what you expect. It to orbit around and I guess in a way that it does but that’s the least of what I care about in this movie 

Todd: Yeah, it’s very surprising. I mean some of the things that happen in this movie will genuinely surprise you I mean, I guess once again, it should be obvious but like if you’re interested in seeing this movie like I think it’s better if you go if you go and watch it and Don’t listen to what we have to say about it first because they’re just Little moments.

Not like major plot twists, but kind of some things that catch you off guard that are really clever and really smart and really kind of rip you a little bit emotionally in this film. And, uh, and that’s the genius behind it. I was looking for reasons, because I’m so programmed, you know, in slasher movies, to find reasons for people to get offed.

To find the, the bad in these people we know are gonna get killed, like, I was, I was waiting to see what a sleazeball R. J. and Wayne really were, you know? Or how selfish they were, or whatever, but it, it never happens, like, you’re like, no, these are like, cool people, they don’t deserve to die, and That alone is pretty unique for a slasher movie, honestly.

Especially one that deals so openly with sex, where sex is the punishment, you know, for it. R. J. is a guy kinda like me, like, you know, well, you gotta start somewhere, and, uh, you really wanna be a good filmmaker, and you’re getting your foot in the door, and even though he knows he’s making some porn movie, he’s gonna try to make something real out of it, right?

He’s got his art. And, and, uh, Wayne, he’s, you know, he’s like, we’re gonna make a lot of money from this. It’s gonna be the start of everything. He’s encouraging these other people. Like you said, Maxine is constantly looking in the mirror and telling, encouraging herself. You can do this. You’re a star. Bobby Lynn is kind of full, more or less full of self confidence already, right?

Bobby 

Craig: Lynn likes That’s 

Todd: what, I, I like… She’s a stripper, right? Like, 

Craig: I mean… I think she’s a stripper, but… It’s never explicit, but… I don’t get the sense that… It seems that they were working in a strip club. That’s where they came from. That’s what it looks like. But, it doesn’t seem like this is Bobby Lynn’s first…

Go around right? She knows what she’s doing because they do I mean as soon as they get like literally as soon as they get Settled in they film a sex scene and it’s relatively Graphic as far as sex scenes are concerned Mm hmm, but it’s just And like it’s obvious that they’re shooting a porno and there’s, there’s one point the, the RJ, the, the cameraman is directing them and like he tells them to change position and he’s talking to them and stuff.

And Jackson eventually says, yo dude, just shoot it and stay in your lane. And Bobby Lynn starts laughing. Until she remembers that the camera’s still on and then she goes right back into the porny moaning, like she knows, she knows, she knows exactly what she’s doing, so I don’t get the sense that this is her first time, and I also get the sense that she enjoys her work, and I just, like, I love that about her character, she is, she’s a beautiful, stunningly gorgeous woman who Likes sex, who is comfortable with the person that she is performing with.

It’s her boyfriend, um, that she’s performing with. She’s straight up set, like she can’t wait to get started, like. Yeah. They find, when they arrive, they’re like, we’re here, and she’s like, finally, I’m so horny, like. She, she likes her work, and you just don’t, I hope, I honest to God hope, that the majority of the people who work in the sex industry enjoy their work.

Um, and I believe that a lot of them do. Now, Britney Snow, you know, these, all of these people are legitimate actors, and Yeah, 

Todd: it’s kind of surprising. 

Craig: It, it is. Uh, I, I honestly think that because Britney Snow was introduced to the world in such a way. I don’t know. It was her show was called like American dreams or something.

And she was so the all American girl. I think that she’s kind of been trying to break free of that mold throughout her career. But she was asked in an interview about filming these nude scenes in which she is very nude. Yeah. And it, it’s pretty, you know, like, it’s of course all simulated, but it is graphic.

Um, and she said, and this makes so much sense to me, and I love it, I think there was a lot of confidence in terms of our characters, and part of the nudity came from that confidence that our characters exuded. It almost felt necessary, because not, Not only were we filming a porn, but our characters would have been so comfortable with that.

Uh, Snow said the film was an exercise in me feeling confident about my body. I was pretty proud of myself. Yes! Like, yes! Be 

Todd: proud! That is 

Craig: fantastic! I just love that attitude. Like, these people would have been comfortable. I need to exude that in my performance, and I’m proud of what I did. Good! for you, and all of them should be proud because this is a great movie.

It’s 

Todd: fantastic. Good characters, great movie. While they’re banging, Maxine goes on a walk, and she finds like a bit of a, like a lake, or a little, more like a pond, and sits down on this dock, and in the background, immediately we start seeing this. It’s a figure. It’s clearly not the man, and we figure it’s probably the wife because we did see the wife peeking out at them in a sort of sinister way, you know, through the window as they pulled in.

And this is where the filmmaking gets, the filmmaking itself of the movie gets a little 70s in style. Um, like you said, it’s like, it’s like he switches to it every now and then. Uh, there’s one, one of the hallmarks of that 70s style, which we talked about many times on this podcast, but like, I mean, even two weeks ago, Vampire Rose Lesbos, like the zoom.

Of the camera, the pull in, the pull out, that kind of thing. This happens, she’s on the lake and suddenly the camera pulls out from her and zooms in and all that. And she goes swimming. She goes skinny dipping. Which is a very, you know, it’s a very slasher movie kind of thing to do. We’re waiting for something bad to happen to her as soon as somebody goes skinny dipping.

And, but they’re just super great camera angles. And it, and Taiwa, he sets up… Shots that have payoffs later. He has this shot She strips down and of course there’s a POV of this mysterious figure in the woods kind of watching her Strip down and jump in the lake and then there’s this extreme high angle view straight down on her With a huge expanse of the lake and the dock sort of just swimming out into the middle and it’s it’s gorgeous It looks great, you know, and then it comes back to this shot again where she’s just floating there You know in the water the at the same time he does these really interesting flash cuts which I’ve really only seen and Sort of like Grindhouse y or Artsy type movies, right?

Where it cuts to a sh what’s supposed to be the next scene, but then it cuts back to the previous scene, but then back to the previous scene, and then back to the next scene, and then back Like this weird back and forth, it’s very jarring. Yeah, I love that! Just stylistically, it’s great. But then anyway, we kinda go back and forth between, uh, Wayne and RJ and them, and then there’s some flash cuts, and then she’s back in the water, and we see there’s a crocodile.

And this is… I felt like, uh, a reminder that these people are not in their element. You know, city people, and they don’t know what they’re getting into, didn’t think to look for bad things in the water, didn’t imagine there could be a… Cottonmouth snake swimming through here, or a crocodile, or whatever. And, uh, yeah, this crocodile, uh, is there, that we see.

And then from that huge above shot, we see her, she hasn’t seen the crocodile, she’s swimming toward the dock, and this crocodile was just coming after her. And it is so intense. It’s so effective, and of course 

Craig: she And so quiet, like Oh yeah! 

Todd: I love it. Just understated. Like you don’t need to make this intense.

You don’t have to put Jaws type music behind it. Right, right. It speaks for itself. And just before the crocodile gets to her, you know, of course she gets onto the dock, never sees it, uh, and walks away. Anyway, uh, but, but she gets out and she kind of puts her clothes back on and, and later on that woman is back on the porch but Maxine is out in the field and she kind of sees her from a distance and waves at her and this weird woman kind of beckons her.

And this woman is weird. Like, she’s… Old. Like, she is so old and decrepit looking that she, she can hardly move, she’s so slow. And it took a while, I mean, obviously, when I’m watching this I’m thinking, this is obviously a person, old person’s makeup. It was not until almost the end of the movie that I realized that Mia Goth was playing this woman.

I know! The first, I 

Craig: was waiting, like, I was like, does he even know? Yes. Yes. I, I, I didn’t either. I didn’t, I was like, I felt the same way about Howard, her husband. I’m like, this has got to be old age makeup. It’s just too, it’s not exaggerated. It’s not exaggerated to a point where I don’t believe that it could be real.

It’s just, they’re really, really old. 

Todd: People who don’t take care of themselves, like your standard horror movie. This is where it’s got strong Texas chainsaw vibes. Like I’m thinking of. You know, the whole family sittin around the table and especially that old person who doesn’t talk with the kind of insanely old looking makeup on them.

And of course this house that she’s invited into that she goes into is, it’s dirty, there’s crap in the, there’s dishes in the sink. It just seems like these people don’t take great care, but they’ve been there a very, very long time and this house has a history and this couple has a history, you know.

There are, Photos on the wall of them when they were younger and this is the beginning of you kind of beginning to Understand about these people like this couple by the end of the movie They’re not just crazy loony old people who are out to murder folks They get some sympathy they get some backstory, but not initially Initially, he’s setting these guys, these folks up to be sinister monsters, and so it’s a bit of a twist, I think, when later on, we suddenly and almost startlingly realize, yes, they’re doing bad things, but they’re also, like, people with needs and wants.

Well, they 

Craig: are, yeah, they, right, they, they are, they’re people. Arguably. Crazy people. Well, 

Todd: not arguably. They’re definitely crazy. Like, nobody needs to do this, right? But at this point anyway, like, I just love, like, and he does these great intercuts. There’s this moment where she sits down and she has poured her lemonade.

And they’re cutting this with shots of the others in the cabin also drinking. But they’re 

Craig: shooting a scene for the movie. Yes, 

Todd: it’s a movie bit. 

Craig: But it’s so, they’re so parallel. It’s, it’s, it’s great. It’s fun. I love that scene too, that scene where, from The Farmer’s Daughter. Like that, that’s, I, I love that he used that.

That’s like the perfect classic trope of silly video porn. But Britney snow, like, Oh my goodness. I’m afraid we don’t own a telephone, but my daddy will be home soon. And I’m sure he could give you a lift to town. Would you like to come inside? Oh my gosh. Yeah. But she is fantastic doing it. And I don’t want to like.

I was more focused on the women, but Kid Cudi is great. He’s really good in this movie. He is, yeah. He’s really confident in himself, to the point of like, being cocky, 

Todd: but And aloof, in a way. Yeah, but not 

Craig: unlikable. No. I totally liked him, and he and Brittany Snow were like A cute couple who happened to shoot pornography together.

But anyway, yeah, and then, so the old lady is talking to, the old lady, again, also played by Mia Goth. So she’s playing both roles in this scene. But the old lady, you know, like, talks to her. And then as she’s, as they’re going out, because Mia, the… Maxine is obviously like, okay, weird lady. I gotta go. Um, but as they’re walking out, the old lady looks at a picture on the wall.

It’s her wedding picture. Now you can’t see it. He doesn’t angle the camera in such a way that we can see it clearly, but. Spoiler alert, it’s Mia Goth, because she’s playing both, both roles. Um, but she talks and she says, uh, Howard served in both wars. There wasn’t anything he wouldn’t do for me back then.

This is the second time I’ve watched this movie and I didn’t, that totally went right by me the first time around. Um, but It’s significant. There wasn’t anything he wouldn’t do for me back then. Um, and she says she was a dancer, and then while Maxine is looking at the pictures, she reaches out and touches Maxine’s body.

Like, her, her skin on her abdomen. And Maxine kinda, you know, she’s taken aback. She’s like, what are you doing? But then… Howard comes back, and the old lady says, You should, you should leave. It’ll be our little secret. And Maxine’s like, What? Like, What will be our little secret? I don’t know, but then she goes back home, and her boyfriend’s been looking for her, because they’re losing the light, and she’s supposed to film a scene.

And the scene, she sits in front of her mirror, and she does a bump of coke, which, she, she has a coke problem. Yeah, clearly. But she, she does a bump of coke, And she looks herself dead in the eye and says, I will not accept a life. I’d not deserve before she gets up and goes out and enthusiastically films her sex scene with Jackson in the barn that the old lady comes and watches.

Todd: Right. But this is intercut with the old woman in the house. Initially it was, it’s undercut with this old woman in the house, putting on makeup. Yes, and it even gets literal split screen in this which is also kind of a very old You know people don’t do this anymore either unless they’re trying to be cute or retro and at this moment You see this woman putting on this makeup and this was the first moment in the movie where I started to really feel for this Gal because she clearly is Pining for her days of you exactly exactly And she doesn’t have to say it, it just becomes very clear.

And like you said, she sneaks down and she looks in the window and Watches her riding this guy in this sex scene and there’s some interesting editing here 

Craig: It’s not like we’re seeing POV shots We’re either seeing shots of the scene or we’re seeing shots of the old lady watching But then in a moment where we’re seeing One of the scene, Maxine looks back over her shoulder.

It’s suggested to me, though I don’t think that the film actually confirms it. It’s suggested to me that she sees… Yeah. And then in that moment, she becomes, like, all of a sudden, it is the old lady in that sex scene for just like two really short cuts. 

Todd: The implication is almost that the old lady sees herself or imagines herself being there in that moment.

I think it’s 

Craig: about duality, and I think that that’s what ultimately the old lady’s Motivation is is that she’s pining for 

Todd: her youth. She’s full 

Craig: of regret Well, yeah, and and at some point later, she says you don’t deserve I don’t remember But basically what it comes down to is she’s jealous 

Todd: But you know what sudden sympathy like at this moment.

I was like, oh my god. This movie is Really going in a direction I wasn’t expecting. It seems, initially, to be setting these two people up as monsters with sinister intentions. And then you realize the humanity of this woman in this moment. And it totally changes. Things at least for me from here on out for a while.

Craig: It’s not just a faceless Shape going around and killing people. Nobody’s even died yet. 

Todd: No Well, the very next scene I believe is that she’s back in her home the old woman and she approaches The guy her husband and she asks him please and he says no we talked about this. I can’t my heart She’s asking for sex.

Craig: She did right. She does a little sexy dance for him Oh, it’s 

Todd: so sad. It is sad, and like I almost cried, you know, at this moment. Uh, I didn’t Honestly. 

Craig: I didn’t almost cry, but I get it, you know? Like, I I’m not twenty something anymore, you know? I don’t I don’t I don’t look like I did then. I still think I’m a decent looking guy, but, uh, I 

Todd: mean, I, I, I’m, maybe I’m really fatalistic, And I often reflect on, my god, you know, I am going to be old and, and, unable to move around.

I know. eventually die someday, and more so, you know, I think about it more so than obviously anybody ever does in their youth, and, you know, it’s a little spooky to think about, and it was very easy for me to put myself in the position of these people, like, oh my god. Right. 

Craig: That’s what I’m saying. Like, bro, last week I went to the doctor to, like, talk about when I’m gonna have my hip replaced, like, I feel it.

I feel it. Yeah. That’s good. Like it humanizes these people. Now, in saying that, they are also still super creepy. Yeah. Uh, it’s, it’s great. 

Todd: This is the great thing. Is it the core of this movie? It’s still a crazy ass horror movie, right? And so like, he never has pretensions to ultimately trying to make this, this point, but it touches on it.

It’s, it’s great. I just love the balance. That Thai West has here. I 

Craig: know like, oh my God, , this is gonna be 

Todd: a long episode because it is. We’re already 40 minutes in and we still have so much to talk about . We, nobody’s even died 

Craig: yet. I know. Then it cuts to this scene where all of. The characters except for the old people.

So our whole crew sit down in the living room at the end of the day and Lorraine is Curious and says she’s like I I do have a question And she says to she says it to Brittany Snow’s character Bobby Lynn. Isn’t it strange? Watching her doing it with him. It’s just business 

Todd: as long as the 

Craig: camera is running So the camera changes things.

That’s right. It’s not real life, Rainey It’s just a movie. I know that. I’m just saying. What about love? What about love? Well, don’t y’all believe in it? Of course we believe in love. How can you love someone and still be with other people? You think we don’t have no morals or something? Is that it? No, no, I, I, I just…

Take it from me. Letting outdated traditions control how you live your life will get you nowhere. I don’t know about you, but I got better places to be than where I came from. I ain’t a fan of that. Besides, it’s just sex. You can decide who you want to love, not who you want to screw. Attraction is out of our control.

It ain’t healthy keeping those feelings locked away inside. I seen you sneaking a few long peeks at Jackson over here. No, I, I wasn’t looking You don’t mind 

Todd: none. She’s right. I don’t mind. 

Craig: No offense. Everybody likes sex. It’s a gas. We’re just not afraid to admit it. Queer, straight, black, white. It’s all disco.

You know why? Because one day, we’re gonna be too old to fuck. And that. The fact of the truth of the matter is, we

turn folks on. And that scares them. And they can’t look away neither. That’s right. We’re like a foxy car wreck. Mm hmm. Which is how I know that this new home video market is set to explode. Finally, people are gonna get to see what they desire in the privacy of their own homes. Free of judgment. We’re gonna give that to them before anyone else.

Before it ain’t only gonna be for perverts 

Todd: no more. 

Craig: Aw, toast to the perverts. They’ve been 

Todd: paying our bills for years. Hear, hear. To the perverts. 

Craig: For living on live access. Being young and having fun to the day we die, to the power of independent cinema, to living life on our own terms, and never accepting what self-righteous naysayers have to say.

Right on. And I just think that it’s such an interesting conversation. I, I, I, I think that. Nearly everybody, and I’m going to include myself in that, kind of objectifies sex workers and doesn’t think of them as real people. And I think that this movie does a good job of, these are just people. Yeah. They’re people doing a job.

I don’t know, I feel like I’m harping on it, but I just, I think, I find it to be such an interesting element of, What should just be a silly horror movie. But I think it’s an important conversation to have. And I’m so glad that Ty West is having it. Yeah. Right here in front of us. 

Todd: And it’s rooted so much in the context of the film and the era that the story takes place in, you know, this is still part of the free love kind of era where young Americans were becoming more frank about sexuality and starting to question what you might say the more prudish or traditional values of their parents and Religion and all that stuff which you know Even I raised I was raised in a way that like you don’t have sex till you’re married Yes, Todd!

Something for married people who love each other very, very much, and in a way I kind of resent that. Todd! Because 

Craig: I was gonna say the exact same thing, and like, I’ve been debating, like, do I say this out loud? I was gonna say the exact same thing. Like, honestly, the, the, I was raised with such a puritanical view of sex.

Yeah. And I kind of resent it too. Right? Because at this stage in my life… Looking back, I’m like, Damn it. Like,

God, you were only gonna You were only gonna be that young. And good looking once.

It’s so true. Damn 

Todd: it. I know, I know. You know, I didn’t even drink until I was 21 either. And I also similarly look back on that like, all that free booze I missed. I went to the same parties, I just didn’t partake, you know? And uh, and that was a very different way of being, and ultimately I don’t really regret anything.

But, that being said, I sure wish I was raised with a little more, um, you know, less puritanical values, which… I don’t know, we don’t really need to get into the nature of sex on this podcast and our personal views on it necessarily, but suffice it to say that my views have changed considerably since then, now that I’m much older.

And the things that they’re talking about, like you said, I appreciate they’re having this conversation, I like it. It’s very much rooted in the time, and ironically, it’s a conversation we need to be having again, because it almost seems like things are, uh… Uh, I don’t want to say like, careful, I need to be real careful, right?

That, 

Craig: that one guy that gets pissed off 

Todd: at us. Yeah, but yeah, screw that guy. And we all have different values and that’s totally fine. Right. But the thing is, let’s explore and let’s be accepting, 

Craig: you know, right. And you, you know, have your ways and. Don’t worry about me. Yeah. Right? Leave me alone. Leave me alone.

You do your thing. I’ll do my thing. It’ll be fine. Yeah. I totally understand what you mean. It’s a way bigger conversation than we have time to talk about. So, let’s take a musical break. Seriously. Now, here at this point in the movie, we have… A musical number, like, which should be so stupid and out of place, but works so well for me.

Now, I could understand if somebody else was like, Why in the middle of this movie does this person take a moment to sing Landslide? But this is 

Todd: also such like a… 60s, 70s, hell, even when I was in college, like this is something that college kids do sometimes, right? Oh, totally. Like somebody’s got a guitar and they break it out and everybody’s super happy to play it and sing along and it feels all folksy 

Craig: and stuff.

Well, and, uh, Brittany Snow can sing, but it’s not like this is, you know, highlighting her musical abilities. It’s just exactly what you said. It’s sitting around in the living room. Somebody’s got a guitar. She sings this song, but Landslide is a great song. And it’s, it’s doing that thing again. It’s doing the split screen between the young people and the old people, particularly the old lady and the song landslide is largely, I think.

Well, I don’t know. I know, uh, Stevie Nicks could tell you what it’s about. But yeah, it seems really appropriate. Like, one of the lines, when it, I noticed that when the camera was specifically on the old lady, one of the lines is, can I handle the seasons of my life? Like, I think that that’s what it’s trying to highlight.

These young people are in a particular season of their life. This older lady’s in a particular season of her life, and I, uh, again, I think it’s just kind of highlighting Her regret and whatnot. I liked it. Ah, it shouldn’t make 

Todd: sense. Yeah She’s back in front of the mirror and she’s wiping off her makeup.

Yeah, it’s sad. It’s super sad I was not expecting this turn, you know, I really wasn’t and Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s just brilliant filmmaking. I was so wrapped up in this story at this point me, 

Craig: too This is such an interesting twist, too. Lorraine says she wants to do a scene, but RJ, her boyfriend, is bothered by it.

And, like, says outright, no, you can’t do that. And Wayne says, whoa, whoa, whoa, don’t get upset. Let’s, let’s take this outside. And he takes him outside, and he tells him, look, She’s gonna do it whether you like it or not. And if you try to stop her from doing it, not only is she gonna do it now, but she’s gonna go out and do it again and again and again.

With who knows who. It’s kind of like saying like, This environment is safe. And RJ says, But she’s, she’s different. She’s a nice girl. Which Wayne takes offense to. As he should. Because the implication is then that Maxine and Bobby Lynn are not nice girls. And he takes offense to that, but he comes up to her, he moves up close to RJ’s I hate to tell you this, but isn’t none of them nice girls?

I just think it’s such an, oh, it’s, it’s just such an interesting take. And that’s not to say that I think that he means that as an insult. It’s just, I think it’s more like your perception of what a nice girl is. This isn’t real and you know, these are, these are women, you know, they’re, they are sexual beings.

Todd: Yeah. It exposes RJ’s hypocrisy because earlier on he was the one telling Lorraine, don’t be such a prude. Lorraine was like, I don’t understand. This was way back earlier in the movie when they were in the van talking about the movie and. And she’s the one saying to him, I’m not sure about this, you know, I’m not sure, like, why are we making this kind of movie and all that?

And he’s like, don’t be a prude. And now that’s getting thrown back in his face. It’s clear he can’t take it. And how interesting is this, right? Oh my god. And also, I felt bad for RJ. I mean, again, he’s being forced to confront what he was Claiming in the beginning that he’s an auteur making this movie and, you know, he’s fine filming all these sex scenes with this other girl and all this stuff, but as soon as his girlfriend wants to be in the mix and has some say in it, he wants to stop her from it.

And honestly, Wayne makes a ton of sense. I thought his advice was fantastic in this particular situation and I gained a lot of respect for him. I mean, this was the point where I realized, yeah, Wayne is actually a pretty good guy too. He’s got a good head on his shoulders. And so, man, that was interesting.

And then, of course, she does. And he films it. The next scene I think we have is Everyone’s asleep, it’s night time, R. J. is awake, he is taking like a cold shower and he is curling up and crying because he is devastated that he just filmed his girlfriend having sex with this other person. And my god, I felt for R.

J. too. 

Craig: No, I did too, and I felt like it was very human. I feel for him because Much like him, I am not that sexually liberated. Like, I would like to think, like, objectively in my mind, I’m like, yeah, you know, sexual autonomy and all that stuff, but if I were in his position where my partner wanted to shoot a porn scene with somebody else, I would again, I would also not.

Well, I don’t think. Um, so, so I totally get it. And I do feel bad for him. And after he cries, um, he decides that he’s, he’s so upset with them, with all of them, that he’s just going to leave. And he’s basically like, well, screw them. I get, you know, they can find their own way home. You’re going to take the whole van.

Yeah. What a day. But he gets in the van and as he’s going to leave, the old lady is angry. in the driveway, like in, in the headlights and on the radio is playing. Don’t fear the reaper, which is so good. And like he gets out, this is the first of several times that this happens, all of their, because they’re decent people, their initial instinct is always.

to help this woman. They, they, they believe that she’s in distress, which she is. I mean, she, she seems like, what is she, what is this old lady doing standing out doors in her nightgown in the middle of the night for no reason. So he goes and like offers to help her back into the house and she embraces him and like moans and tries to kiss him.

And when he pushes her away, she stabs him in the neck. Yes. And then he falls to the ground, grasping at his neck. She straddles him and then continues to stab him repeatedly. And blood sprays all over the headlights. The headlights are lighting the scene, so when the blood sprays, then everything is just lit in blood red as she continues to ravage him.

Oh man. It’s wild. 

Todd: And I mean, the sexual overtones here are bald. Ha ha. They’re, they’re clear as day. I mean, she’s straddling him like earlier, the Maxine was straddling the other person. Of course, always the stabbing and the repeated stabbing. And then she gets up and, uh, does this little dance. Mm hmm. In the red headlights like she is in her world and she is happy and that’s what you know.

Yeah, she’s crazy 

Craig: And she takes the keys and then Lorraine wakes up and and realizes that RJ is gone and she’s worried She thinks that maybe she’s upset him and she tells Wayne and Wayne goes looking for him in the barn Wayne in his little briefs that that was kind of funny to me like just strutting around in these tidy little briefs I mean, I guess…

In, in, in their industry, modesty isn’t really all that important. Um, Lorraine goes up to the house and she finds Howard, the old man, looking for his wife. Meanwhile, back in the barn, Wayne steps on a nail. Oh, God. Which was the most uncomfortable scene of the whole movie for me. Like, you see the nail, you see him walking towards it.

You know it’s gonna happen. And, oh my God, his foot just goes all the way down. on it, and then it’s sticking out of a little piece of board, and that board has just nailed his foot. Ah! And he has to pull it out. And then I think he hears something, and he goes to the far end of the barn, and looks through holes in the, 

Todd: in the wall.

There are like three holes almost deliberately drilled there in the wall, which raised some questions for me. Yeah. 

Craig: I don’t know. But he gets pitchforked through 

Todd: the eye. It’s so Fulchi. It is like, It’s very Fulchi, yeah. Direct ripoff from zombie, uh, But interestingly enough, Again, Tai West, he’s, he’s cool.

He gets pitchforked in the eye real fast, From the side view, And then, immediately it goes back to… The other two, as they’re looking for, the man asks the girl to go down to the basement. And so she goes in the basement, and of course, we’re a little nervous about this because we saw the beginning of the movie.

We know there’s something freaky in the basement, or at least there will be, we’re not sure what. Uh, and then, I don’t know if I’ve ever seen this in a horror movie we’ve done before. It comes back to the kill. Like, it left us in the middle of the kill. It comes back to where it just left us. And where we see him impaled and this pit What is it?

It’s actually a pitchfork. Gets pulled out of his face and his eye drops and he falls to the ground. As he falls to the ground, the woman comes inside with her pitchfork very slowly. pokes and prods at the body to kind of make sure it’s dead and then uses the bitch fork to start putting a little bit of hay on top of him and the whole thing that was going through my head was was this all like a setup because They’ve put holes in the back wall that are perfectly spaced for this three pronged pitchfork.

Craig: I think it was just a coincidence. Really? 

Todd: Yeah. Do three holes exist in the back that this pitchfork fit through perfectly? I don’t know. I don’t know. Anyway. We’re back, 

Craig: we’re back to Lorraine locked in the cellar because he lured her down there. He told her to go find a flashlight down there, which she did, but then he locked her down there.

And so she’s now looking around and she, I don’t remember if we see what she sees. at the same time that she does. But, uh, the, the cover image, uh, of this movie is Jenna Ortega screaming. Um, and this is why, because down in the basement, she finds a, a man, a man’s corpse strung up, like chained to the wall in the basement with his pants down around his ankles, which implies to me that that old lady was like.

Uh, what? Did they like kidnap him and she was like messing with it? So gross. Um, and then, I don’t know if you noticed this, but the very next scene is Jackson taking a carton of milk out of the refrigerator and that man is on the Milk carton. 

Todd: Yep. I did notice that, actually. 

Craig: I didn’t notice it the first time, I only, like, I only noticed it this time, but it suits, like, they cut away from the dead guy to him taking out the milk carton, and there’s a guy on there like, oh, that’s convenient.

But, uh, Howard kind of comes up to the house, and Jackson is the only one awake there, and he offers to help him look for his wife, while totally naked. This was a whole This just felt like a funny joke to like 

Todd: His gong is like hanging down in the You can actually see it in the 

Craig: shadow. It’s so funny. Yeah, it’s hilarious.

Um, but, Jackson’s a he’s a good guy. Like he’s He’s also a vet. He’s a veteran too. And so like he wants to help out his fellow veteran and he’s gonna help him look for his wife And he does and like they they go down to where the pond is and and Jackson says, you know It’s kind of heavy artillery for looking for your wife because the Howard has a shotgun and he’s like well, that’s for alligators, uh, I Found her down by the pond before so they go looking for Her down at the pond and Jackson like is legit looking for her, but then they don’t find him and Meanwhile back at the house the old lady gets naked and gets in bed with Maxine and is caressing her Yeah, it’s disgusting, but then Jackson finds the old man again, and he’s like I couldn’t find your wife and Howard’s like, you’re just the same as the last guy prancing around enticing my wife and then he shoots him.

Now again, like these, these old people, there’s, there’s reason it’s crazy of course, but there is reason behind what they’re doing. He’s angry. He told them, he told them to be discreet if, if they had been discreet and had not enticed his wife. Maybe they would have been left alone, but I still like I hated that I knew I knew Jackson was gonna get killed There was no question in my mind.

Yeah But it’s still I hated it max wakes up the old lady’s in bed with her. So she I I call her Max cause we’re friends. Maxine wakes up and screams cause that old naked lady is in bed with her and that wakes up Bobby Lynn who gets up to see the old lady like fleeing the house naked.

Todd: Oh man. Maxine’s gotta snort some coke to continue to deal with this situation. In the meantime, Lorraine’s in the basement. She’s gotten a hatchet. I gotta step in here too and talk about the sound design a little bit. Yeah. There’s a very interesting score that includes sort of moaning sounds and like 

Craig: almost sexual crying.

In the beginning, right. It becomes more sexual as the movie progresses. I feel like in the beginning, in the opening scenes, it’s… I mean, I guess you could play for comparison, but like, in the beginning, it’s just like, Ah! Ah! Like, it’s just like, kind of like sighing. Um, but then, as the movie progresses, it becomes much more sexual in nature.

And it’s interesting. Well, 

Todd: um… Lorraine is back there, and she’s trying to, uh, hack through the door, which she does. She hacks through the wrong side of the door, honestly. Uh, and reaches through and tries to open the lock, and there’s this crazy jump scare as this guy is back at the house now, and he smashes her hand brutally with the butt of his…

of his, uh, shotgun. And her fingers are just mangled, broken. Yeah, that was bad. 

Craig: It’s horrible. Bobby Lynn tries to help the old lady. The old lady has walked out to the dock, um, and is standing there naked. Bobby Lynn is kind to her, and says, I understand. My grandma used to get confused too. Uh, I, there was even a time when I wanted to be a nurse.

Like, she’s being so kind. And the old lady… 

Todd: Calls her a whore. Yeah, what have you ever done except be a whore? you don’t deserve to flaunt it in my face the way you do and pushes her into the water and Featured to the alligator takes her out. That is so fast and so sudden that I jumped. 

Craig: I knew, no, I knew it I knew that she was gonna feature to the alligator 

Todd: But I didn’t think it would happen that quickly and that suddenly it did shock me holy shit, 

Craig: it’s it’s funny I I don’t think I would have noticed this I read about it Like almost all of the deaths are foreshadowed in some way when they walk out of the strip club at the beginning The, the whole front facade of the strip club is this huge mural, um, and central to it is a, a blonde woman, um, in a bikini and an alligator is pulling at the bottom of her bikini, which foreshadows this death.

And I read, you know, there are specific things that foreshadow lots of the other deaths too. I don’t think I ever would have picked up on it. Clearly some thought was put into that. Um, Max back at the house, the old, both the old people are headed back to the house, so Max hides under the bed, and then the old people have sex in the bed, and it’s so 

Todd: gross!

It’s so gross, but it’s also hilarious. Again, I love the balance. This movie, you know, just when it’s getting intense, is throwing kind of a joke. At us like kind of a funny scene. I just love it. Yeah, so she’s under the bed She can hardly move because this thing is is coming to coming right down on her But she tries to sneak out and she does she kind of crawls across the floor Also, I have to say like The sex scene, once again, brought back a little bit of, I don’t know, is it right for me to say tenderness, because you know these people are monsters, right, by what they’re actually doing, but she sits down and she says to him, she says, tell me, I’m special.

Yeah. And he says, of course you are. You’re the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen. Tell me I’m yours, that you still want me. And he starts feeling on her breasts and taking her shirt off. And he’s like, what if my heart can’t take it? But, but they do it. I don’t know, I, again, uh, not to get too philosophical, but, you know.

Old people have 

Craig: sex, too. I know, and when I’m, when I’m super, super old, I’ll probably think it’s less gross. I hope so, anyway. I know. Uh, yeah, whatever. All right, so they do it. Gross. All right, um… 

Todd: She makes it out. She should have grabbed the shotgun, but she didn’t. 

Craig: Like, the old woman also talks about, like, he asks her…

If, uh, Bobby Lynn, she’s like, you know, I fed it to the alligator or whatever, she’s like, was she the one? She’s like, no, I don’t like blondes. I like that other one, she’s… Like me. She’s talking about, um, Maxine. She’s, uh, that one has something special, like I did. Now, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve read a bunch of stuff about this in almost every movie that, or almost everything that I’ve read says that the title is a reference to the X rating, which I’m sure that it is, you know, the, when Especially when porn, you know, started becoming more mass marketed, then that’s where the X rating came from.

There’s a whole history there that you can read about. It’s kind of boring. But I understand that that’s, um, where the title draws its inspiration from. But I also think that it’s not just that. You’re 

Todd: thinking X chromosome? 

Craig: No, no, the, the… The producer, whatever his name was, said to Maxine several times, You’ve got that thing, you’ve got that something special, you’ve got that X factor.

It’s gotta be intentional. This old lady sees something special in Maxine. I don’t think that it’s any coincidence that Maxine has the letter X. in it. Um, there’s something special about her, which I will be really interested to see if it is explored further in the sequel, which hasn’t come out yet, but I’m excited about it.

We’ll talk about it later. So, but anyway, she crawls out, Maxine crawls out, she runs for the van, but the tires are slashed and the keys aren’t in it, but she does get a gun out of the glove box. 

Todd: And if you’ve been paying attention, you already know this gun is not loaded. Right. Because, earlier in the movie, when the old man threatened, uh, Wayne with his shotgun, and eventually put it away, and Wayne was like, oh, you really scared me.

The old man said, well, it’s not loaded anyway, just brandishing it is enough to pretty much do the job. And Wayne said, oh yeah, I understand, I’ve got the same thing with a gun in my glove box. 

Craig: Right, right, right. So she, Maxine lets Lorraine out of the basement, and Lorraine is freaking out, and she runs out the door and Howard shoots her.

Uh, in the head, in the face. 

Todd: She flops down, again, happens so fast. To a girl that I thought was going to be, I didn’t think she was going to be a final, the final girl, but I sure thought she was going to last until the end. That one caught me 

Craig: off guard. I didn’t, I didn’t think that she was going to make it, but.

The, yeah, I, it caught me off guard. She’s dead. And then, um, but Howard and Pearl, he finally calls her Pearl at this point, up until now. She hasn’t had a name. But Howard and Pearl are talking and they’re talking about how, you know, they’ve got to stage it so it looks like it was, um, self defense in case the police come.

Pearl doesn’t even think that the police will come. She doesn’t think anybody will even know these people are missing. They’re dragging the body in. They’re dragging the body in. Maxine pops out with the gun. And, it’s, I mean, this, this is so funny, like, does she try to shoot them? That, I, the way that Howard dies is hilarious 

Todd: to me.

Yeah, he just has a heart attack. 

Craig: Because, Lor, they’re dragging Lorraine’s body in, but she’s not quite dead, so she like, flops, and that scares him, and he has a heart attack, and drops. Dead. Ugh. So funny. And then, uh, Maxine exposes herself and Pearl is like, you have to help him, he’s having a heart attack.

Like, like I care, crazy lady. Maxine pulls the trigger on her gun, but it’s empty. Pearl picks up the shotgun. Which is loaded, and fires at Maxine. Misses, because Maxine dodges behind, but the kick of it launches her out the door 

Todd: and off the porch. It backfires, basically, yeah. And at the same time, that screen of the preacher on television, which we have been seeing constantly throughout all of this, says Now that’s what I call divine intervention.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. That’s funny. And then Maxine walks outside, the old woman is still alive, but she’s on the ground, and she’s complaining about her hip. Ha Ha Ha Ha 

Craig: Ha Ha. Oh god, I love this. Right. But then when um, Maxine is obviously not going to help her. And is getting into the van. Pearl says to her, We’re the same.

You’ll end up just like me. And Maxine says, I’m nothing like you. You’re a kidnapping, murdering, sex fiend. I’m a f ing star. The whole world’s gonna know my name. I will not accept a life I do not deserve. Oh, I love that. I love that. Pearl says, You’re not special. It’ll all be taken from you just like it was for me.

I’ll tell the whole world what you are. And Maxine, behind the wheel of the van, says, It’ll be our little secret. Which is what Pearl said to her before. And now she says it, and then runs over her head with the van. I love it! Crushes her head. Yeah, does a bump, does a bump a coke. Does a bump 

Todd: a coke while she’s driving.

Drives away. 

Craig: But then, it cuts back to the TV and the televangelist, I didn’t see this coming, but, you do hear the televangelist say something like. I will not accept a life I do not deserve. You hear him say that, which we know we’ve heard Maxine say before. And then he says, the preacher’s like, I’m gonna show you something.

And he pulls a sheet off of this giant photograph. And it’s a picture of Maxine as a younger girl. And he says, this is my daughter. But she… Fell into darkness or whatever and I just hope and pray that someday she’ll be back. So all the while Maxine has been this televangelists daughter. Yeah So 

Todd: interesting.

I know but I’m not sure that was necessary. I don’t know. I I there’s a There’s a third movie, right? So Pearl is a prequel There’s a third movie called Maxine which is supposed to take place after this one. I do wonder if That will be explored more like her background because I didn’t I was really puzzled by that reveal, y’know, why was that a necessary…

Craig: I think just kinda to show where she came from, like that really kind of repressed, puritanical… 

Todd: But it’s such a… Coincidence, right? That this preacher everyone’s been watching on TV happens to be her dad. 

Craig: Right. And, and obviously, you know, she knows that, but she never, there’s never any indication that she says anything.

No. Um, I, I will be interested to see if it’s explored in the sequel too, but I think that this movie was intended. Now, of course, I don’t know. I, I, you know, I’d call up Ty West if I couldn’t ask him. I don’t know. But, I, I think that this movie was intended to just be a one off. Mm hmm. And then, they, they had to quarantine in order to be able to film it.

While in quarantine, Ty West and Mia Goth were just talking and exploring The old lady’s backstory because Mia Goth was going to be playing the old lady They were just exploring her backstory and they got so involved with it that that backstory Became a script and Ty West asked Mia Goth, you know when we’re done filming this movie.

Do you want to hang around? I don’t remember where they filmed. I want to say like New Zealand or something. Do you want to hang around and film? This prequel, and she was like, absolutely. So I have no idea if a sequel was ever intended. Right. And so I don’t know how much of it will tie in. Because the, the, the prequel wasn’t intended.

It just spontaneously happened. And it’s fantastic! And I can’t wait to talk about it! It’s so good. I can’t wait 

Todd: either, I haven’t seen it yet. 

Craig: Well, I would say, I would say, and, and, We’ll see whether or not you agree with me. I would say… That the, that Pearl is better than this movie. And I read a critique that said that Pearl inadvertently makes this movie better.

Because when you know the backstory, it adds. So much context to this movie. 

Todd: Interesting. 

Craig: It’s, it’s so good and I’m so excited to talk about it. The real quick at the, it cuts back, uh, the movie. Yes. Then it bookends itself. We get, you know, the cops at the scene as we saw in the very beginning, and they’re looking around, they have no idea what’s going on.

Um, but one of them finds a camera and , one of the deputies says, what do you think’s on it? And the sheriff says, well, By the looks of everything, I’d say one goddamn f ed up horror picture. Boom! Cut to credits. Like, oh! So clever! I love it! I love it, love it, love it. Ty West just, you know. Giving himself a little pat on the back there, right at the end.

I’d say one Goddamn f ed up horror picture. 

Todd: Ha ha ha ha! Oh man. I just, I can’t fault this movie at all. I just, I thought it was great every minute of it. It was so intriguing. The pacing was so good. The filmmaking, just so good. The characters and the acting, so good. The story had me the whole time. Even though it, it’s not that fresh, I guess.

I mean, at its core. But boy, there were enough elements to freshen this up. And yet it still called back to those 70s horror movies that I liked, without making a big deal out of it. It’s just very understated in moments, and in other places just… very obvious, you know what he was doing. And I just thought it was great.

I just thought the balance was fantastic. I’m so happy to see it. And you’ve raised my expectations for Pearl because the whole reason we’re doing this movie now is so that we can do Pearl next week. No, 

Craig: because I watched it and I will obviously talk about it in depth next week. But I watched it and was just blown away.

I like this movie. Yeah. A lot. If you couldn’t tell, you know, based on the fact that we’ve been talking about it for an hour and a half. I like this movie a lot. It’s been on our radar for a really, really long time. Um, we just hadn’t gotten around to it. And then, a couple of weeks ago, I saw Pearl, and I texted you, I’m like, That is the best movie that I’ve seen in a long time.

Not the best horror movie alone, the best movie I’ve seen in a long time. That’s high praise. It is. And I think that just even going back to this movie, I just think that Ty West is really, really talented. Um, I think he’s a really good filmmaker and a good storyteller. He wrote this movie and he wrote Pearl.

That, that really impresses me because You know, there, there are really talented directors out there. There are really talented writers out there. There aren’t a lot of people who can do both. So skillfully and, and to be so good in, in both capacities is rare and impressive. I can’t wait to talk about Pearl with you next week.

And I Anything that this guy puts out, I’m gonna take a look at, because he hasn’t disappointed me yet. Same here. 

Todd: Well, thank you again for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. Please let us know what you thought of X, if you’ve seen Pearl. No spoilers, though, because I haven’t seen it yet.

Just drop us a line on any one of our online homes. We have a Facebook page, we have a… Twitter feed, we have Instagram, uh, just Google Two Guys in a Chainsaw podcast. Also we have a Patreon, patreon. com slash chainsaw podcast. Please consider supporting us on the show and you’ll get some behind the scenes access and help us select movies, access to our minisodes, interview with us, and help us select what we’re going to do in the future.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Happy Independence Day, Fellow Americans! In celebration, we dive deep into a rather shallow flick – the straight-to-video 1996 release “Uncle Sam”, directed by William Lustig and written by Larry Cohen. High-concept social commentary and silly elements blend together for a wild ride that will get your patriotism pumping. Enjoy!

Uncle Sam (1996)

Episode 351, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. Happy 4th of July. Craig, 

Craig: Happy Independence, to you as well. 

Todd: Todd, this might be the first time we’ve ever celebrated Independence Day on this show. Such is our patriotism.

Craig: No, it’s, it’s honestly just our absent mindedness.

We, uh, I, I think like sometimes holidays just come and go and we’re like, oh man, we should have done an episode and we just didn’t. Yeah, 

Todd: it’s true. Like my birthday every year, someday we’re gonna do Happy Birthday to You.

Craig: I don’t think we’ve ever done Father’s Day like, screw dads. Nobody cares. 

Todd: Wow. Thanks a lot.

Craig: Just kidding. Well, 

Todd: This time around, we’re paying Tribute to America with 1996’s Uncle Sam, a movie I had not known about, heard about anything. I can’t believe you found it. I vaguely 

Craig: recall seeing it on the shelves at the video store. Vaguely, because I think, if I remember correctly, much like Jack Frost, another holiday themed movie.

I think this had one of those holographic Yes. Um, box covers. Covers. So like his face. Would look kind of normal, but then if you looked at it, you know, you move your face, look at it from a different angle, it like transformed into a demony monster kind of thing or something like that. So I vaguely remember it, but I also remember at the time thinking that it looked really cheesy and like, just surely it would be awful.

So yeah, I never watched it. I, I had never seen it 

Todd: before. Much like Jack Frost, I had, I’d probably looked right over it. I’m looking at the cover now and it almost looks like a carbon copy of the Jack Frost cover. They just took the Jack Frost ghost and put a. Some fireworks behind him and like pop hat on.

I mean, it’s kinda, it doesn’t look at all like the otherwise awesome makeup that the character has in the movie when you can see it anyway. Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah. Well, um, that’s it man. I hadn’t seen this before, but it’s a straight to video release. But you found it, I guess, on streaming services and thought we should do it.

Is that, 

Craig: well, it was my turn to pick and uh, I was really struggling cuz there are several movies that I really want to do like right now. And so I was, I was dragging my feet on picking something and then it. I thought, wait, if we’re gonna do an Independence Day episode, it’s gotta be this weekend. Mm-hmm.

So that’s what I texted you and we, and you’re like, yeah, let’s do it. So I just googled Independence Day or 4th of July, horror movies, and I found a list. Uh, really? I was, yeah, I was surprised. Um, some of them were like tangentially related, like, doesn’t even really happen on the 4th of July, but there’s fireworks, so.

Oh, right. But there were several that legitimately either featured heavily, uh, the 4th of July or were specifically, uh, set on that day or, or something. And this is one of them. There were, there were two from the Hulu into the Dark Series, which is all holiday themed, but they sounded a little more serious.

And this one sounded a little more fun. So ultimately, this is the one I picked and I think I’m glad I did. Yeah. 

Todd: This was, this was pretty fun. Well, you know, you perked my interest right away as soon as I pulled it up and I saw that the writer was Larry Cohen. Right. I 

Craig: knew you’d like that. Oh God. Yeah. 

Todd: You know.

Well, we like, we’ve done some fun Larry Cohen things. Totally. Larry Cohen. Totally. I think we talked about ’em a lot on previous episodes. I think probably mostly on the it lives. Mm-hmm. Episode right? Or it’s Alive or whatever. I don’t know. It’s alive. Yeah, that’s right. About the Baby was Born is kind of nuts.

He died a few years ago and he was just universally loved by everyone and he has written so much. They said, I, I remember seeing a documentary about him just sort of celebrating his life and his family was talking about, he just loved nothing more than writing. He just came up with these crazy, wild concepts.

I think our tribute episode to him was the stuff, if I remember correctly. I 

Craig: don’t remember, but that was a great. Episode. Well, yeah, I don’t remember the episode, but that was a fun movie to talk 

Todd: about. It was he just very high concept, really silly stuff a lot of times, but um, in an, in their own way, kind of clever.

And many of the movies that he’s done, in fact had strong twinges of social commentary to them. Yeah. Without being too serious. And this movie obviously the same. Yeah. Very heavy handed in, in many respects. You, uh, you kind of have to laugh and chuckle at the whole thing because I don’t think anything in this movie is meant to be taken seriously.

And yet he still managed to slip some kind of like social commentary into it, which was kind of funny. And then the director, William Lustig, probably best known for maniac. The original. Yeah, did Maniac Cop later and I guess got his start on hardcore film sets. I, he’s one of these guys who just grew up in the Bronx in, during the fifties and sixties, remember, went to these grindhouse exploitation theaters, kind of fell in love with that, wanted to jump into the industry.

And then, you know, in the early seventies, got into the industry like, uh, quite a few of these folks did, kind of in the golden age of porn and, and being in the background, directing a couple hardcore shoots before his breakout thing with Maniac. And then did a couple movies, uh, after that. Uh, right now he’s more of a producer than a director.

A again, just producing a lot of straight to video exploitation, fair horror stuff. It’s kind of random actually. He just seems to be probably pretty good at making money. Way better than me. 

Craig: Yeah. I, uh, honestly, I didn’t recognize the names when I, uh, that’s not why I picked it. But, um, when I was reading, Audience reviews, uh, as I tend to do to see if I even want to waste my time with something.

A lot of people mentioned specifically, you know, coming from these guys, you know, they’re, you, you have certain expectations and whatnot. The audience reviews that I read were really mixed. Hmm. There were some people who said it’s, you know, it’s, it’s not as good as their other stuff. And other people were like, ah, don’t be so hard on it.

It’s, it’s fun. Just give it a shot. Um, and I think that I’m gonna land in that ladder camp. Is this a great movie? Absolute. Not no way did I, when it was over, did I have a smile on my face? Yes, I did.

Todd: I know it was just fun. I mean, I. Well, you know, right away what kind of movie you’re getting into and then you’re not really that disappointed. But there’s so many stars in this film, so many a, a couple A lists, some B lists. It’s just, had I just scratched my head wondering how these people, Isaac Hayes, Maybe you just needed a paycheck at this time.

I don’t remember a check. The check, yeah. Was he doing St was he doing South Park at this time? I can’t remember. I think so few years before this. I don’t, before this, when South Park started, it was somewhere in the early nineties. Yeah, mid nineties, I think like 93, 94. This is 96. Yeah. I think he was doing South Park for a few years before this.

Yeah. He did 

Craig: it for a long time. Uh, but that’s, I was, you’re right. And, uh, I didn’t know a lot of these people. I, I, I pulled up a couple of their Im DB pages. Most of them have dozens if not hundreds of credits. Yeah. I didn’t recognize. Many of them. I recognized Isaac Hayes and I recognized PJ Soles. Yeah, because she was in Carrie and, and Carrie two and Halloween, many other things.

Halloween, 

Todd: she was the girl at the nude scene in Halloween. I guess she did the Devil’s rejects too, didn’t she? I don’t remember. She, 

Craig: she’s, I mean, she still pops up. Uh, I think, but I was just, and, and of course when we get into the plot, which we’ll need to do, um, I just, apparently as I was watching this movie, uh, decided that I needed to write the novelization of it because I had so, Many notes.

Todd: Me too. I have like three pages of notes here. Oh my God. Just so much happens. I know. It’s not disappointing at all. It’s, it’s, and, and everything I wanted to happen happened to, this is another one of those movies. I can’t remember. I, maybe it was one, one of the Halloween movies we were doing, not Halloween like Michael Myers, but like one of our Halloween big movies where it’s just like when you’re seeing a movie that takes place during Halloween, you want it to check a bunch of boxes and it take as much of the holiday as you can and all of the tropes and all those things, and just find all the crazy, wacky ways you can take it.

And I feel like they just made a laundry list of 4th of July. Okay. Let’s see, uh, 4th of July. Fireworks. Uncle Sam. Uncle. Uncle Sam. Uh, barbecues. Yes. Um, school performances. You know, Abe Lincoln, like just, he just made this long ass list of shit that happens during the 4th of July, and I’ll be damned if they didn’t manage to cram every little bit of it in, into this film in a significant way.

I think that’s 

Craig: the thing that I liked the most of it. Like this guy sat down and said, I am gonna write a 4th of July movie like that. That is the most important part of it. Yes.

I will come up with some killer, like the, it’s just a slasher movie. Yeah. But. 

Todd: Well, zombie 

Craig: slasher it. Zombie slasher, but it’s so heavily themed and I really like that. It’s fun. 

Todd: Yes. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Well, the movie’s a little dated. I think it starts off in Kuwait, June 14th, where there’s some helicopter crash and big sergeant who comes out and asks this guy to go and take care of the bodies or check out the wreckage.

And one of the down pilots who appears dead suddenly wakes up, smashes the guy’s face or something, and then shoots the sergeant through the other guy’s body, which was totally unnecessary, but a nice touch and, uh, makes a crack about friendly fire because, uh, it was friendly fire that had downed this helicopter and the private or whatever who was kind of checking out, made that comment.

And the general was almost dismissive about it. Just like, Hey, it’s all right. You know, this happens during war, right? Don’t let, don’t get your panties in the water about it. Of course the people who die, um, due to friendly fire probably think differently of it, but, uh, yeah, I’m right, right. That’s the motivation, right?

That’s where it starts 

Craig: out. And then the, uh, opening credits are all over old footage of all this Uncle Sam propaganda, which was awesome. I know. It was really cool. You know, I don’t know when it happened, but I feel like Uncle Sam got phased out and I, I missed it when it happened, I 

Todd: guess. Yeah. You don’t really see him anymore, do you?

No. 

Craig: Maybe it’s more of a wartime thing. I, I honest to God meant to like do research on the origins of Uncle Sam and stuff, and I have no idea. I forgot. All I know is that he use this. Would you use like to know? Well, yeah, yeah. Yes. 

Todd: I don’t think, I think it’s rather simple. It’s all quite hazy. The character supposedly came into use during the war of 1812, may have been named for Samuel Wilson.

Nobody really knows for sure. Um, but the first reference to Uncle Sam in literature, not newspapers, was in an 1816 book called The Adventures of. Of Uncle Sam and then I think it just that 1917 poster of him pointing, saying, I want you for the US Army for recruiting. Right. It almost feels like that’s, even though before that he was in pop culture, I think he showed up a lot in, um, editorial cartoons representing the government.

Uhhuh Uhhuh. Yep. Yep. But that just sort of cemented it. I think there was that poster and yeah. So just kind of developed organically through mostly illustrations in, in newspapers and magazines until suddenly now, you know, people were dressing up as him and he’s sort of a, I’m trying to even figure out what is Uncle Sam.

Right. There’s no real, he’s just like a kind of personification of the government. Yeah. As your nice uncle who takes care of you, but can also be stern. Tell you, you need to buck up and do your part. 

Craig: It’s like the nice version of Big Brother. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. I mean, it’s just a patriotic thing. It’s, it’s a, a symbol.

I don’t know if young people today would even necessarily recognize that imagery, but I do. I remember seeing it in my history textbooks when I was a kid. But anyway, yeah. So the old patriotic Uncle Sam propaganda, you had said this movie is a little dated. What it do, what this movie does is remind me how old I am because mm-hmm.

In my head, 1996 was like few years ago. I know. 

Todd: Same here, 

Craig: same here. I, I actually had to do the math. I’m like, That was almost 30 years ago. I graduated from high school almost 30 years ago. That is it. It blows my mind. 

Todd: It’s also a little depressing because the first thing that, you know, as I mentioned, they’re talking about Kuwait and Operation Desert Storm Uhhuh.

My dad served in Operation Desert Shield, uh, which then became Desert Storm. He wasn’t in the Middle East. He was actually at a contingency hospital in England, twiddling his thumbs. Thankfully for most of that time, Uhhuh. But it’s kind of sad because like you, you know, if you’re gonna make this movie today, I was just thinking of all of the conflicts and wars that could be substituted in for that.

And this movie would be the same. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. It’s really kind of depressing that even though 1996 feels like it was just yesterday, and I remember Operation Desert Storm being such a thing and so important to our family and felt at the time kind of just, and, well, I don’t know, we didn’t really even understand it when I was a kid, but, uh, you know, the social commentary that is in this film, up one side and down the other, I mean, it’s, it’s the same stuff as today.

I mean, I, I didn’t, 

Craig: yeah, yeah. But I, I really, gosh, this may get deeper than I expected it to, but I really thought about this because. I don’t remember. This was pre nine 11. Like nine 11 changed. Mm-hmm. Everything. And so, and, and you were either patriotic or you 

Todd: were with the enemy, right? Right. 

Craig: Yeah. Right. I don’t even remember what it was like before that.

I, I, I feel like it was just, I don’t know, but maybe this movie will be reflective of that. Cuz it was that, that weird period between Vietnam and nine 11 where I think people were kind of questioning the government and the military. And then nine 11 happened. It’s like, no, you will fall in line. You, you know, we are Americans and were proud of it.

Mm-hmm. And knowing that you come from a military family, I will be very interested to hear your take on what is said outright. Like it’s not like this is, uh, it’s not like this is, you know, subtle. A deep, subtle, subtle. 

Todd: There aren’t layers to unpack here. No, there, there’s, 

Craig: this is like, there’s a thesis like halfway through the movie.

Todd: Yeah. And this is like one of those like layered salads that comes in a giant like punchbowl, you know, where you can see it all from the side. You don’t have to dig deep to see what’s there. It’s just proudly displayed up from the top to the bottom. Through this movie, so yeah. All right. Oh God. So 

Craig: before we get there though, we have to introduce our main characters.

Our main character, I guess, is Jodi. He is a little boy, um, who is not a very good actor. No. And who is also a psychopath, like 

Todd: a psychopath in the training. 

Craig: This kid, he is a psychopath, but you don’t know that yet. When you first meet him, he’s just this precocious little boy, and we find out that that dead soldier, the one that like was dead but then wasn’t, and then was again, uh, weird.

Don’t know. That was his uncle. Sam? Yes. Um, like literally his Uncle Sam. 

Todd: As soon as that became obvious, I was rolling on the floor. I was like, oh, it’s this kind of movie. 

Craig: I just thought that was so clever. Like, why not? Like lots there people are named Sam. People have an Uncle Sam. Why not? That’s hilarious.

But then he like has a dream that Sam isn’t dead, and then we jump to another character. A cop drops off what appears to be his girlfriend. This blonde lady named Louise. He drops her off at home but then lurking on her porch is this older military dude who’s like, I have some news. And she’s like, what?

Also Todd, the writing in this movie. Oh, it’s so bad. It’s so bad that it’s is hilarious. Yes. Again, I wrote the novelization because I stopped, it probably took, this is an hour and a half movie. It probably took me two hours to watch it cuz I kept pausing it and rewinding it to write down the lines. Uhhuh not even here, but there are so many that I wrote down cuz they are so.

Funny. 

Todd: Oh God. Like, 

Craig: oh God, it does. I, I don’t know how much to talk about cuz there’s so much, but we find out that this boy, Jodi, is obsessed with his dead uncle and like he’s his hero and he carries around his medals in a box and he takes him to school for show and tell. And then his teacher, you know, this fucking liberal teachers like feeds him all this bullshit about Vietnam.

Todd: Are you trying to rile me up?

Craig: No. Like his teacher’s, like 

Todd: I, I grew up during Vietnam and um, many people thought that was an unjust war. Many young people like myself protested the war. 

Craig: In fact, some people left the country for a while, 

Todd: ran away. 

Craig: It was a very difficult thing to do, 

Todd: Jodi, but you have to understand, those who left the country felt it was a lesser evil.

And blindly 

Craig: following orders they knew were wrong. My Uncle Sam said, you guys were cowards. That’s right. 

Todd: And then, and then, and this kid is such a dick that as soon as he’s like, the teacher’s like, okay, well why don’t you just go back to your seat then and we’ll change the topic. And he turns around and says, well, I’m not saying you’re a dick.

I, I’m just saying my uncle 

Craig: said it right. 

Todd: I wanted to punch that kid in the face at this point. I’m so funny. 

Craig: And then, then when you, you just see him, I don’t even remember when it is. I don’t remember if it’s when he’s at home or just, you know, like later in school or something. But he says, when I grow up, I’m gonna go into the army just like Uncle Sam did.

And I’ll do everything the president says cuz he know better. Cause 

Todd: he knows the best. He literally says that word for word. I, 

Craig: my jaw hit the floor. I’m like, that is one of the funniest things I’ve ever 

Todd: heard yet. I mean, it sounds especially, well first of all it’s just stupid. Second of all, it sounds especially stupid as he’s muttering it to himself.

However, I guarantee you there is probably a kid or two on the schoolyard about that age that I played with who would’ve said that to me. You know? Oh, well that’s because actually sounded were taught when we were kids. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. And also like, again, I’m not gonna get too political cuz we get in trouble if we do.

But there was, there was a time, there was a time in my life when I almost subconsciously would’ve thought that, like when you, the president probably really does know what’s best. Yeah. He knows stuff, 

Todd: president does, knows things we don’t know that we’re not supposed to know. And it’s probably better that we’d more or less trust that he knows what he’s doing.

Yeah. Oh God, 

Craig: yeah. At this, at this point in my life, I’m not as confident. Let’s just put it that way. 

Todd: There are some people around us who are a little too confident about that. Enough 

Craig: said. Hilarious line. It’s so funny, Jesus, and they have to send the remains to his aunt’s house. Why this? Why wouldn’t they send them to like a 

Todd: mortuary?

Well, this is old school, right? It used to be really old school. I mean, yeah. Like, you know, like our grandparents, right? Where Well, I’m 

Craig: Irish. I’ve never been to a wake in somebody’s house. 

Todd: Well, but, but even in the US I mean, fun fact, like wakes in people’s homes were very, very common up until about the fifties.

Fifties. Oh, I know. And then they were deliberately phased out. It was kind of a trend of modernization and like, let’s get all this icky death out of the house. This is why the family, you know, this is what leads to juvenile delinquency and problems like that. The home needs to be a happy place and children need to be protected against death.

And that’s when the parlor became. The living room instead of the death room. Ah, 

Craig: gotcha. Didn’t know that. Yeah. Fun fact. Fun fact. But you’re 

Todd: right, not only is it weird that the body is delivered straight to the house and then just let to be there for the wake in the morning, but why wasn’t it delivered to his wife’s house?

Craig: Why was Oh, the aunt says something. Well, first of all, because we never see that set, so they, why would they build, why would they build another set, set just to stick that coffin? Good point. When Louise comes to her sister, Sandy, I think is her. Sally comes to her sister’s Sally’s house and is like, or no, her sister-in-law, excuse me, and says, they came and told me he’s dead and her sister-in-law, Jodi’s mom is like, well, your house is too small.

We’ll just have it delivered here. Mm. Um, and that’s where they’re gonna, where they eventually do have the wake. So the remains arrive and like Jodi comes in and he’s like, oh man, I wanted to help carry the body in. Like this kid is a fucking psycho. And then he can’t wait to get in that coffin. Like he is just jumping at the bit 

Todd: he wants to get in there cuz he has all of his uncle Sam’s medals.

He’s got him in a big military, you know, metal. I don’t know what you call it. I should know, but I don’t, you know, it’s the thing that you store all these stuff in. I know what you’re talking about. Yeah. Uhhuh, we learn almost laughingly piecemeal before it’s like, oh, he really idolizes his Uncle Sam. Oh, okay.

He reads these military comics that seem to be. Written with unc, his uncle’s name in it, or maybe he’s just imagining it. I couldn’t tell. He’s got his medals and he’s talking about ’em and talking about how great he is, and then later it’s like he has a letter that his Uncle Sam wrote specifically to him.

Craig: Oh my God. First of all, as soon as he started saying it, I paused. And started typing it out, cuz I could tell it was just gonna be gold. And then as I’m watching, I’m like, this sounds like he’s reading it from a letter or like, or that he has it memorized. And then as it turns out, he is reading it from a letter from his Uncle Sam, the, it’s inspired because his mom has a douchey boyfriend who he doesn’t like.

And the douchey boyfriend is a lawyer and he’s bragging at the dinner table about how um, he conned the government. Yes. And Jodi is just disgusted, like he can’t get out of there fast enough cuz to cheat the government is so bad. This young 

Todd: kid has very strong opinions about our tax code. Uh, 

Craig: so that’s one thing which is funny.

It’s funny, it, it is funny. Gosh, I, I wanna get to the line, I’m gonna get to it, I promise. But, um, he’s pissed about that. And then there’s the wake and that’s when we meet, I Hayes. Yes. I think we got, we, we got a sh we got a shot of him earlier in like a CD apartment above a deli or something? Yeah. All like in flashing red light and whatever.

He’s a veteran too, and he knew Sam and he comes to the wake, he, but he feels guilty because he knows that Sam really looked up to him and he told him all these like, glory stories. Uh, so he kind of feels responsible for the guy’s death. But he, Jed is super interested in him because he’s interested in all things military.

So they go outside together so that Jed can show Jodi his wooden leg. Mm-hmm. But then Jodi starts going on and on and on about how much he loves the military. And Isaac Hayes is like, uh, don’t you dare, like you are too smart. Do not join the military and I’m gonna go outta order. They have a conversation that’s really important and I wanna talk about.

Yeah. But ultimately the line that I was getting at, Is, uh, Jodi reads this from a letter from his, from his uncle, anybody bad mouth, this country, you go right after them, no matter how big they are. People who don’t respect the American way of life deserve to have their butts kicked. Stay tough. Soldier Uncle Sam.

Oh my God. And he is reading it like it is the gospel. It’s 

Todd: just like he, yeah. Like he pulls us out and reads it to bed every night, you know? Yes. In the sense that’s how this boy is 

Craig: motivates him. It is his philosophy and it totally is. 

Todd: Well, he tells that old guy, you remember, um, the, the, the old, uh, the older gen, not general, but master sergeant, sergeant, master sergeant, whoever who gives and, and breaks the news, uh, to the widow about the death, and then comes in and is there at the wake.

He says to him, he really looked up to your uncle Sam, didn’t you? And he says, yes. He was the only one around her who did anything important. Mm-hmm. And that general’s a little weird cuz then he comes out, he leaves the wake and he shakes hands with the wife. There was this long closeup on. How he was shaking hands with her with both of his hands.

Maybe just a little too long. But that’s the only indication that we really have that he’s a 

creep. 

Craig: Well, until later, there’s a whole scene of him talking on the phone to somebody else talking about how he’s gonna hang. Right. But the widow, widow and his, her sister, but what I’m saying 

Todd: is that comes outta nowhere.

Suddenly this guy’s out of his suit and he’s, he’s in a motel drinking whiskey and on the phone like laughingly talking about how the whole reason he volunteers for these jobs of breaking the news to widows is cuz you know, he’s bagged 750 of them so far. Weird. It’s so shoehorned in it comes out of nowhere.

Craig: But I see what the writer is doing and I like it. He is setting up a big cast of assholes. Oh yes. So that when they get killed, we don’t feel bad. In fact we celebrate and enjoy the fun of it because they’re assholes anyway. 

Todd: Yeah. Cuz, cuz ultimately, like, this guy’s gotta have patriotic reasons for killing each person.

So we have to learn why each person is a scumbag, you know, particularly disgraceful to, to their country. And I love the setup because then 

Craig: it is fun. Like mm-hmm. You are ju like you revel in seeing these people kind. I mean, it’s not. You know, literally come up and say, don’t deserve to die. But in the context of this movie, it’s fun and it’s funny.

Yeah. And I liked it, but I wanna get to this conversation. Okay. So this actually out of the context of this movie is a pretty serious commentary. It is. Which makes it feel not out of place necessarily, but a little bit jarring. Mm-hmm. Um, basically, I don’t know if I should be in the Army, Marines, or the Air Force.

You get that idea outta your head right now. Boy, things ain’t like that used to be when we knew who and what we were fighting for. Lin Tojo and, and, and Mussolini. We knew what we had to do and why. Today is all mixed up. Nobody knows the whys and why for Sonny are smart boy. Like you ought to know enough to keep out of it.

Be a doctor, save some lives. Forget about killing. Somebody’s gotta be soldiers. You don’t want to get sent back in a box. Maybe it’s better than dying in bed. Everybody dies anyway. You know, I don’t know. All I know is that I have the utmost respect for the men and women who serve in our, our military, um, because I have, you know, taught many young people who have gone on to do that.

I know that they go in with the noblest of intentions and they are there because they genuinely want to fight for the values and freedoms of our country. And I have the utmost respect for that. Now, the intentions of the higher ups, that’s something I maybe question at times, but knowing that you are from a military family, what’s your take?

Todd: Well, you know, it’s evolved over time, right? It just, even, you know, when I was a kid again, it felt like a different time. All of the conflicts we had been involved in, with the exception of Vietnam. And sort of the embarrassment of Korea up to that point felt like exactly like he’s saying, you know what you’re fighting for, you know what you’re doing.

When I was a kid and my dad went off, uh, into, you know, operation Desert Storm and Shield, you know, we believed what the government was telling us about how this needed to happen and, and that the war was just, and all that. I feel like looking back on it historically, we’re a little more skeptical about that now, and as a military kid, it makes me angry.

Uh, it makes me angry. The Cavaliers with which people, the higher ups can, for their own selfish reasons sent. People like my parents in to potentially die. Mm-hmm. It would make me even angrier to feel like I have, I had a relative, or I myself, you know, had died for something that turned out to be a sham.

And quite frankly, we’ve had a couple recent conflicts where we’ve, we’ve felt like we were sold a bill of goods. Mm-hmm. That people were sent in for reasons that were not upfront and were, quite frankly, maybe not what we would as soldiers have supported, but when you’re a soldier, your job is to follow orders.

Mm-hmm. You’re doing that job and, and you just have to put your trust and that leadership. And I think, I know, you know, that more than one of my family members and also friends went into the military and had long careers in the military feeling very good about themselves and feeling very good patriotically about what they were fighting for and left very bitter and upset about.

How it ended up and almost all of them, maybe my par, I don’t wanna speak too much for my parents, but Right, right. Um, you know, almost all of them to some extent say, you know, things have changed. Things are different now than they were, and that’s why I was saying earlier, like, it’s so weird how even back in 1996, my feelings were mixed.

I remembered that around that time, having very mixed feelings about what was going on, but still giving the benefit of the doubt to our leaders saying, you know, there’s things that we don’t understand and don’t know that maybe we don’t know the reasons now, but hopefully later on we’ll we’ll understand a little more clearly that this was just, and this was right.

And ever since then, it’s. Seems to have been many disappointments. Uh, and so, yeah, it’s just me. I’m sorry. Of course we’re getting political. We’re doing a July 4th episode about Uncle Sam movies, so we’re gonna talk about these things. I know, 

Craig: but you know, 

Todd: I, I so screw you. If you don’t like it, this is, we’re gonna talk about 

Craig: it anyway.

I, I want to be, I just want to be cautious because I do have so much respect for veterans and, um, you know, even I hang out in, in certain circumstances with people who are older than me, more like my parents or my grandparents’ age. Um, and some of them are veterans who have very s strong. Positive views about, um, the government and, uh, the military and, and very different political views and values than I have.

And when those people bring up political topics or, uh, make comments that I may not agree with philosophically, I just let it go because like, I’m not gonna argue with you, sir. Yeah. Who fought for our country. Like, like Right. I, I, I, I, I will have my own opinions and I will keep them to myself. I, I’m, I have too much respect to even 

Todd: argue.

Many people don’t understand that there is a definable line between supporting your government. And supporting your soldiers. Yeah, you can support an effort even though you don’t agree with it, because you care about those people who are involved in that effort and you want them to be safe and you want them to come home.

And again, there’s also that part of you that wants to believe that whatever they’re doing and whatever they’re doing, sacrificing is not in vain. And so, you know, you can support the troops without necessarily agreeing with the cause and the reason they’re out there. And it sounds weird, but I don’t have a problem with that.

I understand it fully. I don’t know if it’s just because of my background or what, um, but also it gets into pandering territory after a while. And I’m gonna say this, I think I’ve said it once before on here, we were talking about something else, but I’ve asked my parents, you know, how do you feel? Because it seems to be more common than it was when I was a kid.

And I was hanging around military people all the time. It seems to be very common that as soon as you’re within earshot, if somebody says, oh yeah, I serve in the military, or whatever the next word outta someone’s mouth is, thank you for your service. Going and getting like a military discount at the checkout counter, that employee will say, thank you for your service.

That is nice. And I don’t doubt the intentions of the people who are, who are saying that, uh, I hope they’re give, putting some thought into what they’re saying. However, I’ve asked my parents, how do you feel about that? And they’ve told me, you know, we appreciate it. But also sometimes we don’t feel it’s genuine.

We feel like it’s an automatic thing, like, have a nice day. Again, you don’t wanna like. Put someone down for saying something nice to you like that. But at the same time, when it’s so flippant and so cavalier, like, oh, this is the automatic response I’m supposed to say, it doesn’t really touch your heart, you know?

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. I I also think that, uh, patriotism has been weaponized, um, for political purposes. Uh, you know, if you don’t agree with what your government is doing, if you don’t support, not the troops, but the, you know, the government’s, uh, response to conflicts and those types of things, then you’re un-American and, you know, go somewhere else.

Uh, and, and I think that that’s a terrible thing to do. I think it’s a terrible thing to weaponize patriot patriotism for political purposes. Well, you know, I 

Todd: hate that. I agree. Yeah. So I think we’re, obviously, we’re both on the same page with this. This movie isn’t going quite that direction. I think this movie is, I think if you were to kind of get to the core of those messages that are being put across very ham-fisted through here, it’s more about war and violence.

Yeah. Well, individual motivation more than like, we’re getting into political stuff, really. Right. 

Craig: Because he, Jed uh, Hayes also tells Jodi that his uncle was an angry kid. Um, and he, and he says, I took him hunting once and he scared me because I could tell that he liked. Killing. Mm-hmm. And, and ultimately that’s what it comes down to is that, uh, Sam became a soldier, not out of a sense of duty or patriotism, but because he liked to kill people.

Yeah. Another thing that Jed says, I think it’s one of the last things that he says, uh, and it struck me because I’ve heard this sentiment many times. Um, I used to teach a whole series of war novels, a farewell to arms, all quiet on the Western front. Catch 22, uh, the red badge of courage, like a, we did a whole semester of them, and this sentiment came up a lot of times.

Jed says, You have to be crazy to kill in war, but then they send you home and tell you to never be crazy again. Yeah. That’s actually pretty poignant in this pretty bad movie. 

Todd: It’s a poignant case that deserves to be made in a better movie than this for sure. And I think it has 

Craig: been. Oh, for sure. You know, there, this has been explored this, this issue has been explored in, in great literature and I think in in good films too.

Todd: Yeah. Well, by this point in the movie, if this, if I had not been so entertained by the sheer unanimity of what I’d been seeing so far, like with the acting and the writing and the classroom, that could not be more decorated for the 4th of July than it is, I would’ve been a little bored. It’s like it feels a little slow.

Yeah. Because the build is is pretty 

Craig: slow. It, that’s at exactly this moment in my notes. I have 30 minutes in get to it. Right. And then it does, and then it like right when it’s really starting to drag, I’m like, come on then. Then here we go. Out, like just outta the gate, boom. It 

Todd: looks so outta the gate.

It’s almost like, this is what I love about Larry Cohen. It’s like, it was reading my mind. He’s like, all right, next on the docket, kids in a dark cemetery painting swastikas on tombstones and burning the American flag and swinging it around over the open grave of our antagonist. Alright. You see that? And you know shit’s gonna go down.

Yeah. But, 

Craig: uh, explain this to me. Zombie. Sam was always a zombie. Like I guess, I guess I think he arrived a zombie. I assumed that this burning of the flag was gonna be, you know, what woke him up because it was such an insult to democracy. 

Todd: I feel like it, that’s a one interpretation, 

Craig: but we see him move before this happens.

Todd: Does he move one of the, he move or is it just panning his fingers? Move. They did move. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I wasn’t sure if they moved, his fingers moved, 

Craig: at least. I thought so. That’s how I remember it. Cuz I thought that was so weird. I, because I had read like the, the synopsis says a fallen soldier is reawakened when teenagers burn a flag over his grave.

And I thought, well, that, that, that tracks, 

Todd: you know, you know what, maybe if I know, if I know cause and effect,

but maybe he would’ve just. Bit peacefully sleeping in there for the rest of eternity. If that hadn’t happened, maybe shift around a little bit. Maybe. Dunno, what’s amazing is that by this point, Sam has not gotten that coffin open. He’s been at it like three or four times, Jodi, right, right, right. Jodi, sorry, unlatching.

By this point, I think he has all the things Unlatched, but for some reason I don’t understand. He quit cuz he wanted to put the medals in there. He quit and he took the medals upstairs and put them back under his bed. Right. But when Sam wakes up, The first thing he does is climb upstairs very carefully to Jodi’s room, grab all of his medals, open up his shirt, pin them to his flesh.

Yeah. Why did he do 

Craig: that? He was wearing his, Ja, he was wearing his uniform. I’m 

Todd: pretty convinced that a true diehard military guy would not have pinned his medals to where they don’t belong. But you know, he’s a zombie, right? 

Craig: I don’t know. It wanted, it was weird. Yeah, it was weird. Now here’s, it’s not it, it’s for a purpose, and I understand the purpose, but the first victim is this creep who is in full Yes.

Uncle Sam garb, including the stilts. Like, oh, this is so good. Like these, these. 15 foot tall stilts and this, he stills put 

Todd: him at like three stories high. 

Craig: Yeah, he, it’s enormous. I don’t know if you watched through the credits. If you watch through the credits, yes. There’s an outtake where he falls. It’s really funny.

He falls and you see the, like the product, the director or somebody like running into frame, like to check to make sure he is okay because it would be like falling off a damn house. He’s like way up in the air. Dude, 

Todd: this was the scariest part of the movie for me. Seeing this guy on these tall stones. I was like, what?

There’s no net, no wires. What the hell? This guy could fall. I mean he’s literally like two stories up. Yeah. Cuz he’s 

Craig: peeking in. At this girl who’s just got out of the shower or whatever, and she does drop her towel, you get a brief, very brief nudity. She did that on the condition that she could keep one of the masks from the movie, which I thought was hilarious.

Todd: That’s odd. She’s not even credited, by the way. 

Craig: Oh, that’s funny. She sees, she sees him yells at him, he runs away and he starts walking through the park and he’s like, Hey, who’s following me? And, and you see that it’s Sam and he’s holding, I don’t know, some, some sort of weapon, uh, with trout like, uh, gardening shears.

I think. Big tall Uncle Sam just keeps walking along until eventually he falls. And then Evil Dead Uncle Sam, um, comes around. Ed stands over him and says, I hope you got an iPhone and pulls off his mask and kills him. Now, a couple of things here. First of all, I love Quibi. Killer. Like, yeah. That’s fun. Love it.

And this guy is quippy. 

Todd: I thought he was gonna poke his eyes out, but that’s okay. I did 

Craig: too. It was kind of a weird choice that he didn’t. Mm-hmm. Um, it was also an interesting choice. It, it made me think of your frustrations with the fun house. I, I guess this guy, because he’s locked into these stilts as his can’t move, zombie is approaching him.

He just lays there like he doesn’t move at all. He just lays there. Yeah. Uh, evil Dead Uncle Sam kills him and then takes a minute to tailor his costume. Well, 

Todd: seriously. Those legs are pretty long. I mean, you know, if you’re gonna put those pants on, it’d be, they’d be dragging behind him the whole show. He, he can’t be tripping over himself.

He’s gotta cut them. I dunno where he got the garden shears from. But, you know. Oh, by the way, before we, before we move on, yeah. Since we talked about the stunt guy, poor stunt guy who fell actually filming the scene, I looked this guy up. Mark Chadwick is his name we deserves to be talked about because he’s been in almost every movie you’ve ever seen.

A name Sounds familiar. 157 credits as a stuntman. We’re talking like the X-Men movies, captain Marvel and stuff. Uh, American Horror Story, the Revenant, the Paranormal Activity, anchorman, iron Man. The Air Force One Speed. The list is massive and it’s pretty much everything you’ve ever seen. It’s funny, like, this guy’s been stunting since, uh, Passenger 57.

Wow. Very cool. Anyway, but he’s not the guy. You see when the mask gets taken off, that’s another, somebody’s Right, right 

Craig: face. Yeah. But, okay. So I get why they did it from this point on until the very end. Our villain is in this, um, yeah. Uncle Sam costume. And I understand why they did it, because he does kill a couple more people.

He kills a couple of teenagers. The, the teenagers who burned the flag, one of them, he, uh, pushes into a grave and then buries them alive, which makes absolutely no sense. Mm-hmm. But fine. And another one, he strings up, strings up on the flagpole. A flagpole, which as far as I know, nobody ever notices. No. The next day comes and 

Todd: go, they don’t know these kids are missing and you know, they’re raising the flags all over town.

But I guess Uhhuh whose ever’s job it is to raise the flag at the cemetery is, uh, was too busy or something. Right. 

Craig: And then the, the most of the rest of the movie takes place during the day, which again, we talk about this before that hardly ever happens. Mm-hmm. So it’s kind of, it, it’s, it’s a nice change of pace to have these murders happening in right out in the open, in broad daylight for most of the rest of the movie.

And that’s why he’s got to be in that costume so that he can go around and interact with the people, which he does as though he’s just really enjoying 

Todd: himself. Yeah. Just like shaking hands. He’s just 

Craig: schmoozing. He’s having a great time. That was 

Todd: so, so bizarre. The 

Craig: bad part about the fact that he’s now in this costume, which is creepy in and of itself, is that his zombie makeup is fantastic.

Yeah. And I don’t know, maybe it was a really expensive or complicated process and they just didn’t wanna do it all the time. Yeah. 

Todd: It was very disappointing because 

Craig: when he is, when he’s, when he doesn’t have that plastic Halloween mask on, he looks great. He reminded me very, very much of the soldier at the end of 

Todd: house.

Yeah. Oh, it looked exactly like him, really. And the closeups on that makeup, which we got to thankfully see a lot of when he was in the coffin, are just. It’s just impressive. Uh, but you know, he, he can’t be, cuz part of the gag of this is that nobody knows he’s a bad guy, you know? Right. It’s like he’s literally walking around in plain sight at this festival 

Craig: that looks small, but totally real.

Like, oh yeah, I’ve been to that festival, 

Todd: we’ve been there together. Yeah, that’s 

Craig: right. Right. And I, I thought, you know, like, it looks small, it looked fun, you know, small town you don’t, there aren’t a whole lot of opportunities for things to do, you know, especially community things. It looked like a good time and everybody was having a good time.

And then mm-hmm. There’s just. He starts killing people left and right. He kills. He kills that com bastard. Mr. Crandall, first, 

Todd: I love this part was so hilarious because of course I would say most of these kills you can see coming from a mile away, which it just adds to the fun. He’s just wandering outside.

He’s got these kids who he’s tried to wrangle together for some, I don’t dunno, they’re all gonna be in the parade or whatever, and they’re all dressed up in different costumes. Yeah, it makes 

Craig: perfect sense. That school is in session in the middle of July, by the way. Oh God. I didn’t think 

Todd: of that. Absolute right.

That’s a big problem. Maybe it’s summer school. Okay, maybe these are there. Okay. All right. Fair enough. But he is like, Jimmy, where’s your hatchet? Yeah, where’s the hatchet for your costume? Oh, I don’t know. I must have left it in the classroom. Okay, I’ll go get it. I was just like, number one. Well, we know what’s happening next.

And number two, this kid was gonna walk around with a real hatchet as part of his costume. Uhhuh. Oh man. This is great. Anyway. 

Craig: Fourth, 4th of July. Parade real. Yeah. Real, real quick. The kills all happen very quickly and yeah, you don’t see a whole lot, but they are creative enough and fun enough that I’ll give it a pass.

The, the special effects are just okay. They’re not bad. Um, no, but they’re nothing to write home about either. Um, but still the kills are fun enough that I, I, I 

Todd: let it go. Agreed. Like a low enough budget is probably what it is, but not so low that it’s just like all off screen. You see some blood splatter on the wall or something?

Yeah. Right, 

Craig: right. Oh. Um, but then we meet a new character out of nowhere, we meet this new character who is a little blind burned boy in a wheelchair named Barry. Right. 

Todd: Who, 

Craig: Barry is my favorite character, and I want him to just be in lots of other movies. Just unexplained and unrelated to this as Asberry, just Asberry in a wheelchair with Blues Brothers sunglasses on no expression on his face.

He’s like, like he’s like Marlon Brando and the Godfather, like he just sits there like, Ugh. Oh my God. It is so funny 

Todd: because he was burned up during last year’s tragic fireworks accident during the last, 

Craig: which you have to, in infer, you have to infer because they never say it outright. They just constantly like make references to it.

Like, oh, so we don’t have another tragic event like last year. And the mom’s like, we are going to 4th of July so they can see what they did to you last year. And this poor kid’s like, I don’t want to go. And she’s like, well that’s too bad cause we’re going too bad. The mom is PJ Souls, by the way. Oh God.

Yeah. And Jody apparently is Barry’s friend. Um, and he goes up to him and tries to talk to him. Barry’s really not having it, and this is when, this is when Sam is in the crowd shaking hands. Oh God. And, um, real quick, uh, they ask one of the teen boys who didn’t get killed last night, but was there, um, he starts to sing the national anthem and then totally makes a mockery of it and moons the crowd, which don’t make a mockery of the national anthem.

Yeah. Like that, that’s just, that’s just rude. Yeah. So I knew he was dead for sure. Right, because like, you know, uncle Sam is just standing there glaring at him, but then close up, close up on Barry and from screen Right. Oh, the white gloved hand just comes in and caresses his face and he’s like, he’s Barry’s like, who is it?

Stay on close up. I’m here to do what you want me to. I’ll make them all feel your pain. Even in darkness, you can see me better than those with eyes. You know me. So Barry and Uncle Sam apparently have a psychic connection, and Barry is also psychic in that he knows without being told that. That is his friend, Jodi’s Uncle Sam, who’s dead.

Right. Of course. There’s another, there’s a, there’s a point later where shit goes down and Jodi runs to Barry and Barry’s like, don’t worry, he won’t hurt us. And Jody’s like, what are you talking about? He’s like, it’s, it’s your uncle Sam. And Jodi says, but he’s dead. And Barry says, I didn’t say he wasn’t

Todd: No. Right. Oh my 

Craig: God, this Barry stuff is gold. I love it. Yeah, whatever. They kill a bunch of, he kills a bunch of other people. There’s a weird moment, which, a weird moment that I don’t understand where, uh, evil Uncle Sam bumps into Jed, his veteran friend. Yeah. And they stare into each other’s eyes for a while.

And Isaac Hayes says, I’m all right. I’m all right. And then Sam keeps on moving. Past him. 

Todd: Yeah, I didn’t get that either, 

Craig: because it’s not referenced again, like, it seemed like Jed recognized him. Mm-hmm. Or something. 

Todd: Either that, or it was just very poor performance by Isaac Hayes, who isn’t the world’s greatest actor.

No. He 

Craig: looked like he was baked out of his mind. He did. He could barely keep his eyes open. I still loved it. Yeah. It was fun. 

Todd: That made it better. Well, I love that there’s a girl, uh, she opens up the smoker and Emil was like, all right, that’s gonna come into play. And then puts some ribs down and hacks them up with a cleaver.

And I’m like, that’s gonna come into play. Which she leaves by the ribs and then goes off into down a trail into the woods, pulls out a couple of doobies, and then is stopped by Phil, the, the deputy or whatever who grabs them, takes in the pocket, and then she walks back and is like, Oh, where’s my cleaver?

Yeah, that’s weird. Phil gets, gets cleaved. There’s a thrilling sack race. Yes. Which is, I guess, I guess these guys are just gonna race their sacks all the way through the woods and across town. I couldn’t, I know. 

Craig: I never seen anything like that before. It’s usually like a 50 meter kind of thing. It’s not an obstacle 

Todd: course.

No. But yeah, Mo the kid who was the dick about, uh, the national anthem Uhhuh is like knocking all the other kids down as he’s doing it. But then he himself trips up and rolls down the hill into an orange grove. As he’s hopping through the orange grove. He sees Uncle Sam between two of the trees and make some comment to him and hops along.

And there’s Uncle Sam again right there between the next two trees and then hops along. And then boom. Uncle Sam is right there, right in front of him. So, Uncle Sam’s a bit supernatural as well, apparently. Exactly. 

Craig: Like there are no, you don’t know what the rules are. Mm-hmm. So there just aren’t any like, yeah, do whatever you want.

And, and I didn’t care. It was creepy. Um, it was kind of a, 

Todd: it was a very low rent way of, yeah. Low rent, 

Craig: but a low rent way of making something spooky. I mean, they did the same thing, uh, in. That movie. Hell, hell, hell House l l c where it was all just practical things of just, you know, placing props and actors in the right place at the right time to create a spooky effect.

There doesn’t cost anything. Yeah, 

Todd: I liked it. I did too. Then he beheads him and then pulls the cleaver up and licks the blood off of the knife with his blue tongue. That 

Craig: was 

Todd: weird. Yeah. Again, there are no rules. I’m trying to get a bead on this guy. Well, he’s 

Craig: a psychopathic that comes up. A couple of more people get killed.

Uh, Sally, who’s Jodi’s mom finds her boyfriend Ralph dead. And then there’s like an investigation, but they’re like, uh, well the, the show must go 

Todd: on. By the way, Ralph, Ralph is dressed as honest Abe and he has been shot in the head. 

Craig: Shot in the head. Offscreen. Yeah. Yeah. Har Har. And then they, once there’s this one dead body, Louise and Sally sit, Jodi down.

This is his mother and his aunt. Um, so Sam’s wife and sister and both of them tell, they’re like, you idolize your uncle Jodi so much, we’re afraid you’re gonna end up like him. And he is like, well, I wanna be just like him. And they’re like, no, he’s bad. And no he’s not. You’re liar. The wife, Sam’s wife is like, we really need to tell him.

And so Louise, the wife, basically says, he beat me up all the time. And then the mom, oh God, she doesn’t say it outright, but it pretty much sounds like he used to rape her, right? Yeah. 

Todd: Since she was like six years old. 

Craig: Yeah. So this guy is a bad guy. Now the good news is Jodi just takes this all on faith.

Like, he’s like, oh, sorry, nevermind, sorry. Thank goodness. Yeah. Oh God. And the, the mom says he fought a war in our house all our lives, and we were the losers. Oh my God. Oh, I love this writing. It’s so terrible. And I love, uh, somebody says another body has been found. Then we see the barbecue girl. The barbecue girl opens up her smoker.

Yes. And there’s a decapitated head on it. I don’t even know whose head that was. That 

Todd: was the head from the, the Sack sack race guy. The sack race guy. Okay. Yeah. But I knew that was gonna happen. She 

Craig: gets pushed down into the barbecue and killed, I guess, cuz she smoked weed. Yeah, that was unfair. Or was going to smoke weed.

Todd: That was the one killing I thought was very unfair. She did not deserve to die. 

Craig: What else? What else? Oh, the congressman who we haven’t even mentioned this douchey congressman had shown up. Yeah, well, the 

Todd: congressman is played by Robert Forster. Uh, I don’t know who that is. I g god like, I mean, maybe you only know him from his older version.

I mean, he’s been in everything dude. I mean he’s all over tv. All over movies. He plays generals, he plays, uh, guys. He is in the descendants. He was in, uh, so much stuff. He only died like, uh, A couple years ago. Oh, he was one of the, he was the lead an alligator. Remember when we did alligator? Yep. He was the lead in that.

Yep. 

Craig: Yep. Mm-hmm. That makes sense. Well, he, I mean, he, he just pops up here to be a douche. Like, I don’t even think he really interacts with anybody except that guy much places this, this and that. He, he, 

Todd: his, his, his role took like 10 minutes to shoot. He represents 

Craig: big, corrupt government. He gets, uh, made an example of he gets tied to a trellis and then the, the ultimate fireworks display of, for the, for the festival happens and like blows him up.

Todd: Well, while the crowd is almost happy watching this. Yeah, they’re 

Craig: smiling and pointing. Um, that was hilarious. And then not only does he blow up with the fireworks, which would’ve killed him, but then they, there is a huge explosion. Um, that kills. Well, it, it, it tosses the young cop who was dating Sam’s wife, tosses him down a hill at the bottom of which is waiting Uncle Sam with a flagpole that the cop then gets impaled on.

Love it. Yep. Now there’s chaos and everybody’s running around. This is when, um, Jodi runs and, and gets his friend in the wheelchair, and then Jed ends up with them and there’s some funny Isaac Hayes dialogue there. 

Todd: Oh. Dude, look, I’m too old for this crap. Cut it out.

Craig: At this point I must have been sick of writing stuff down. Cause I just have funny Isaac Hay’s dialogue. Um, but they go to check the coffin because Barry tells them it’s, it’s Sam, but they want to be sure. So they go and they check the coffin. The, the pervy sergeant is in there. Yep. And then Barry out of nowhere, the mom comes home.

Barry out of nowhere goes, I know where I’d go. If I was him, I’d go get my wife back. So then Jed goes off to find Sam. He’s immediately followed by the boys. They end up at, uh, Louise’s house and finally an unmasked un he, he took, he takes the mask off. So we get to see the really good. Makeup again. Makeup.

Yep. And he confronts Jed and he says, you made me do this. And Jed says, you never fought for your country. You just loved killing. You’re nothing. So just die.

So, but he, then he gets thrown through the room partition. But he’s fine. Yep. He jumps right up, no problems. So he’s like, the guy can’t be killed. Uh, Jed says, and Jody says, go get your cannon. And so Jed says, okay, and he 

Todd: runs out. Jed has time to leave. Go to the school. Yeah. Strap up the cannon to his truck and drive it back to their house while Jodi is confronting his uncle.

Yeah, 

Craig: I know. And it’s so stupid. Like the, like the zombie uncle is like talking to the boy do, used to love me and uh, oh no, he’s talking to his wife. Do you still love me? And she shoots him. But then Sam says to Jodi, I came back for you. And Jodi’s like, I wanna be like you. And Sam’s like, well, you’ll have to be dead first.

It’s so weird. But then outside the house, Jed is setting up the literal cannon. Literal cannon. Like, like civil war cannon. 

Todd: Right. Which he shot once earlier, 

Craig: right? He did. To like start the festivities. Right? So Jodi, Jodi and Sam, Sam come out of the house together and Jed says, I can’t, I can’t shoot it with, uh, with Jodi up there.

And Barry expressionless as always says, he’ll move, just do it.

And so he lights the cannon and as the wick is running down, Jodi is saying to the zombie, I’m going back with you. We belong together. But then he immediately runs off into the yard and, and like hits the dirt and Jed blows Sam up with the cannon. He shoots him and it like, Explodes and there’s fire 

Todd: everywhere.

It explodes and there’s fire. It’s just a cannonball, but it explodes. It’s a cannonball, it explodes. There’s fire all over his 

Craig: house. Yes. And then Sam is engulfed in flames, but is still coming. And that was badass. I, I know. You know, it’s not like I’ve never seen this effect before. I’ve seen it many times, but I’m always impressed with it, um, because I know that it’s not easy.

I know that it’s dangerous, and when it’s done right, it just looks great. So here he is completely engulfed in flame, still coming. And Jed is like, he likes the cannon again. But the fuse is like 12 inches long and they’re just waiting like it’s this suspenseful moment where this flaming zombie is getting closer and closer to the kid and you’re watching the fuse go down and finally it goes off and.

Again, this looks amazing. I don’t know how they did it. This is a 

Todd: fantastic stunt. Fantastic. The, the, 

Craig: the guy on fire gets blasted back into the house and which then explodes three times.

Cannons don’t cannonballs, don’t explode. Not these kinds cannonballs. Anyway, oh my god, that was hilarious. Maybe it, maybe it hit the gas tank. I don’t know. The house explodes. That must be three times. 

Todd: It was probably a bottle of wine on the, on the dining room 

Craig: table. And that’s, yeah, that must be it too.

And then presumably the next day, Jodi is standing out in his backyard. 

Todd: Somebody else’s backyard. I suppose 

Craig: I, I thought his mom, oh yeah. I guess. Cause that was his house, but he’s burning all of his war toys. But then he turns around and it kind of freezes frames on his face and the, there’s a weird music cue.

And so my reading of that was, okay, he’s burning all of his weird toys, but he’s still a psychopath. 

Todd: Yeah,

Craig: that’s totally the vibe I got. Which honestly, I thought, That leaves it open for a sequel. Good call Sequel never materialized. They talked about it right after 

Todd: this. It would’ve been interesting, that’s for sure. I, I think I would watch it. Jack Frost got a sequel, huh? Yeah. Oh, I would totally watch it. As long as all the same people were involved.

Yeah. 

Craig: Like, this is a bad movie. And I was on, I was a little worried. Those first 35 minutes are a little slow. Not that I hated it, and not that I didn’t think that I had promised, but I’m like, come on, I’m looking at my watch. And then from that point on, it was just a rollercoaster of fun. Mm-hmm. It, it, it, it is certainly 100% schlock, but it is just draped from floor to ceiling in 4th of July.

Yeah. And that part of it is fun. 

Todd: It’s a movie that knows it’s schlocky and that’s a absolutely, you know, there’s a fine line sometimes that is really. Tedious. Uh, but in this case it was fun. I I kind of liken it in a way. I don’t think you enjoyed Jack Frost as much as I did. It was okay, but, uh, I kind of put it in the same category, oddly enough, considering their cover art looks so similar.

The two movies have no relation to each other. But it just has that same vibe of like, I know I’m schlocky and we’re just gonna run with it, and it’s still gonna work because it’s still gonna be fun. Mm-hmm. And to have those names involved. Oh, and the, the acting so bad, 

Craig: it was acting that you would expect from this kind of movie.

It, it reminded, it was, it gave me similar vibes, even though totally different movies, but to something like Critters. Yeah. Where the cha, the characters are just. A little bit heightened, you know, it’s just a little bit outside of realism. Yeah. But you know, the same kind of small town vibe and the house blows up at the end.

See, look. All kinds of connections. But that’s the, that’s the vibe it gave me. And I like that movie too. And it’s silly too. It’s that kind of movie. I’ll 

Todd: watch anything Larry Cohen writes, it’s all over the map. It’s usually highly entertaining. Not always good, right, but good in the sense that a good movie is a movie that keeps me glued to the screen and interested in what’s going on.

And, uh, he almost always succeeds as far as I’m concerned. 

Craig: It’s a lot of fun. Well, he did here with me. I, uh, I had a lot of fun with it. I did. Uh, honestly, like when I, when it was over, I had a big smile on my face. I was really looking forward to talking about it with you, cuz I had a really strong feeling that you would, uh, enjoy it in a similar way.

So I’m glad we did it. And, uh, happy 4th of July. Yeah, 

Todd: happy Independence Day to you too, Craig. Well, thank you again for listening with us. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. You can find us online just by googling two guys in a chainsaw podcast. Hopefully you come across our Twitter feed, our brand new Instagram account, and, uh, our YouTube channel.

You can subscribe to us on any one of those places. Leave comments for us. Let us know what you thought of this episode and what episodes you’d like us to, uh, do in the future. We have a Patreon, uh, patreon.com/chainsaw podcast with a very. Vibrant little community there behind the scenes chatting about movies and deciding what movies we’re gonna do next, please consider joining that by going to that address.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We were certainly divided on the merits of Jesse Franco’s Vampyros Lesbos. Todd thinks it’s exploitation fare striving for something a little greater. Craig thinks it’s just porn. You be the judge as you listen to this week’s discussion of one of the most notorious lesbian vampire flicks of all time.

Vampyros Lesbos (1971)

Episode 350, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: So we come off of two weeks of doing what the people want. Now we’re coming back to doing what I want to do. Uh, I don’t know if I more often than not choose the movies here, mostly because, uh, you Craig tend to be more like, ah, whatever you, you’ll just sort of go along with everything I suggest, which I love.

And I think sometimes you regret it. Mm-hmm. And then you give me shit for it. So I guess that’s like my payment, I suppose, is to, yeah. Get ready. Well, today’s movie is the 1971 West German Spanish lesbian Vampire movie, Vampyros Lesbos, which, uh, has been on my list for us to watch for a long time, because as you know, I’m a very big supporter of the LGBTQ community.

Craig: Don’t do that. Fuck you. I don’t need your support or your lesbian vampires. 

Todd: What’s wrong with my lesbian vampires? This is, well, this is the first in a month long series of lesbian vampire movies. We’re, we’re hitting up a new theme month. Craig doesn’t know it yet.

Craig: You’re absolutely wrong. That’s the thing. You’re, you are right when you, I have said to you a bazillion times cuz you throw shit like this at me and I’m like, I don’t say no. I, I will not say no. I am really reevaluating my position on that. After this. 

Todd: After this one, huh? Yes. This is the one it took. Wow.

Craig: God, this movie is terrible. 

Todd: Well, I’m not gonna gonna say that it’s just porn.

Craig: Let’s just be straight about it. It’s, oh, it’s not porn. It’s, yes it is. No, it’s just porn. No, this is porn. No. For mens in the seventies who were too pussy to buy real porn who were too ashamed to go in and actually like buy porn, they could rent this and be like, no, this is legitimate film.

Okay. Whatever this is. 

Todd: It’s not, but that’s fine. You’re, you’re right about the fact that Yes, this is, uh, well, first and foremost, this is an exploitation film. Almost everything we do on this podcast is an exploitation film, and we’ve seen it in, uh, all sorts of extremes. Okay. We’ve seen super extreme violence.

We’ve seen. Way more porny sex than you’ll ever see in this movie. This movie is filled with nudity and yes, it’s long leering shots up close of, of women’s bodies and gives girls an excuse to rub their hands all over each other and stuff like that. But it is a far cry from porn. It’s not porn. Well, I guess it depends 

Craig: on how you define porn then.

I guess we don’t need to get into it. Uh, it’s, it’s it, you don wanna talk about porn. It’s Playboy channel. At least it’s, 

Todd: it’s very tame. You’re right, but very tame, Playboy channel from maybe back in the, in the eighties or something like that. Uhhuh, it’s, it’s extremely tame nudity, but it’s not porn. It’s absolutely not.

I will agree 

Craig: with you on, on technical terms. 

Todd: No. If you call it porn, you’re gonna give our listeners the wrong idea because like I said, we have seen movies. Okay, 

Craig: fine. Fine. Then it’s just trash. Like don’t wanna call it porn. That’s fine. It’s just trash then like, well, I, uh, I, 

Todd: it was a big hit in Europe when it came out.

I’ll tell you that. I mean, it was a different time. 1971. Well, look, the director of this movie and another reason why I wanted to do this movie. And by the way, no. This movie I’m, I’m completely joking about. We’re not gonna be going into deep, uh, discussions of gender roles and, uh, and, you know, queer theory when we talk about this movie, it’s, it’s a hundred percent for the male gaze, obviously.

But, uh, the director of this film, Jess Franco, is one of the most prolific filmmakers ever. That’s not necessarily a compliment. Like most of what he made was garbage and he knew he was making garbage and he said, I don’t think I’ve ever made a good film. Uh, he always wanted to, but what he was primarily known for was getting cheap exploitation films in under budget and, uh, On time.

And that allowed him to basically do whatever he wanted. And so that’s how he made his money. Uh, Spanish filmmaker who, who made women in prison movies. A lot of horror movies like this. Uh, lots of, so sort of soft core. You know, not porn, but like, like this movie where it’s just a lot of looking at girls’ bodies or things or sex comedies and stuff like that.

This guy made over 200 movies. He also scored and wrote the films. Um, he’s often compared to Ed Wood. Yeah. As this guy who, yeah, very prolific, made a lot of movies, lots of enthusiasm for films, but quite incompetent, really wasn’t even, you know, always able to put together anything that’s beyond just exploitation.

But anyway, uh, he made this movie in 1971 and, uh, one of the stars of this film, um, Soledad Miranda, who plays, um, the vampire. Not yet. She plays the vampire. Yeah. And Countess, uh, Nadine Carody. Oh yeah. Od yeah. She was on to become a, possibly a big international star. This was like his one discovery, like he found her, he put her in a couple movies, which gained her sudden popularity in Europe.

And uh, she was really poised to be like an international superstar when she sadly died in a car accident. Oh. In 19? Yeah, at the age of 27 actually.

Craig: Oh my God, that’s awful.

Todd: Yeah. Uh, 1970 was the date of her accident. This movie came out in 71 and I think there were three or four other movies she had already shot that came out after her death.

And so, yeah, really sad. Like this woman, I think is captivating on the screen. She’s gorgeous. She’s stunningly beautiful. Yeah, she’s stunningly beautiful. She has these really. Piercing eyes. Obviously nobody in this movie really gets a chance to showcase their acting talents and stuff. But, uh, just the fact that she can go through some of these really, really long takes without cracking a smile or, or, or cracking up.

I actually, I, I give all the actors credit for that, uh, in this movie, honestly.

Craig: Oh my God, I can’t believe that’s like the barometer against which we’re measuring. Like, oh, well, at least they didn’t crack up. God, it. 

Todd: Oh man, I’m gonna be alone here. I, I’m not, look, I’m not gonna praise this as a great movie, but I think this, uh, is a notorious movie.

It was very successful when it came out in Europe and, uh, and then subsequently was released around the world. It was one of his few films to get a US release. Um, uh, look, he’s, I mean, with, with over 200 movies, the percentage of movies, uh, that were actually rel even dubbed into English. Are a smaller percent, uh, fraction of that.

And this was, was one of them. The, the version we saw, um, I, I don’t know if it was originally shot, I think it was shot in German, obviously dubbed, even the German is dubbed because all the actors in here aren’t even necessarily German. Uh, there’s Spanish actors in here. There’s a very, very famous, um, British actor.

But yeah, anyway, uh, it was, it was quite popular. At the time in Europe, had some success again as an exploitation film in the United States is constantly found on lists of lesbian vampire movies, that kind of thing. He also directed a Count Dracula movie this same year, uh, with Bruce Lee and uh, she was in it as well as Lucy.

Did I say Bruce Lee? I meant, uh, Christopher Lee.

Craig: Oh, that’s hilarious. Christopher LeeI was really thi I was like a, and I could maybe get behind a Bruce Lee vampire film. 

Todd: That would be crazy. We’ve come real close. We’ve come real close. Uh, no, this movie actually I wouldn’t mind watching. It’s a PG movie, uh, in it’s Bram Stoker’s Count Dracula directed, uh, and co-written by him.

Uh, and it stars Christopher Lee, uh, as Count Dracula, Klaus Kinsky as Renfield, Fred Williams, as John Jonathan Harker, and again, the beautiful Soledad Miranda as Lucy. So I, I’d be kinda interested in checking it out one of these days. But, um, This is the movie we’re talking about today. Um, so anyway, I had not seen it before.

It was a little hard to get a hold of, although it has had a recent couple d v d releases and with some restoration, uh, involved. So, I was glad to have seen it and, uh, I’m sorry. Uh, I, I was just as painful for me to slog through as it was for you. So don’t get all uppity on me about it then. I doubt that.

Well, maybe a little less painful. I mean, it is kind of sad when this erotic movie with tons of female nudity finds me so bored at one point that I’m just getting up and walking out of the room to, to go to the bathroom without. Pausing it. That’s how bad it is. Even the erotic scenes are boring. 

Craig: Yeah. Oh man.

I don’t know what to say about it. I, it was 

Todd: But you’ve heard of this before though, right? I mean, no, no, no, no. Nobody has heard of this. You’re all over the horror sites and you’ve never run across Vampyros Lesbos. No. 

Craig: And I always feel like I’m, um, Doing ads for people and they’re not paying me so I shouldn’t, but one of the main horror sites that I look at is, is Bloody Disgusting.

And I went to their site cuz they have a search option and searched this title. And I don’t think that, uh, it was mentioned once in 2016 because somebody in Hollywood was throwing a Vampyros party and that was the only thing that had had. Had written about it

Todd: I’d go to that party.

Craig: Yeah, I bet you would.

I, uh, and I, I just did, you know, a Google search on it, and I just didn’t, like, I, I couldn’t find anything about it as aside from a Wikipedia page, uh, and the IMDB page. Uh, so I don’t think that this is as widely known as, as you think, at least not in America. What I will say, I guess, and this is being kind, is that maybe in 1971, Something like this would be a little bit more sensational and subversive and less, um, available.

And so maybe that would explain why it was popular. It’s just. It’s, it’s an, it’s just an, it’s a girly show. It’s a nudity show. That’s it. Like, yeah. Even though I’m not physically attracted to women, I can still appreciate the beauty of a woman’s body. And I do, and the women in this movie are beautiful and they have beautiful bodies, but I don’t need to le at them for an hour and a half.

The poor, uh, girl who plays the main. Lady 

Todd: Linda Westinghouse. Uwe Stromberg, 

Craig: yeah, Uwe Stromberg. She is buck naked for 80% of this movie. Um, just running around naked and, and, and Soledad, Miranda’s naked? Uh, probably 50%. Most of it. Yeah. At, yeah. At least. At least. Oh, more? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she’s mostly naked all the time when she’s in it.

So I, I, again, again, I’m saying like if I were. A, a straight man in 1971 who didn’t, you know, obviously have the internet and ha who would actually have to walk into a store and hand somebody else money for pornography? Maybe this would’ve been a nice alternative. Well, um, but, uh, I can see boobs anywhere, anytime, all day.

Like this is not titillating. And, and on top of that, it’s just a bad movie. Like it’s, it’s terrible. It’s terrible. The acting is maybe one of the better things about it, but it’s still really bad. The cinematography is not good. The plot doesn’t make, excuse me, listeners, I’m sorry, but I have strong feelings about this movie and so I’m probably gonna be swearing more than usual.

Now, Todd, I know that you 

Todd: were gonna make me have to edit out all of your 

Craig: Yeah, you’re gonna have to, yes. Because, oh my God, this movie is so fucking stupid. Like I, yeah, had no idea what was going on most of the time. And that was compounded by the fact that they cast two blonde women who are identical to one another.

Todd: Oh, you’re talking about the Yeah. The other women’s not in it much. Yeah. But 

Craig: I had, she popped up and I had no idea who she was. And I thought she was, was still the 

Todd: other lady. You thought she was Linda? Yeah. You’re talking about Agra. 

Craig: Okay. Yes. And uh, Todd first sent this movie to me and I started watching it and got a good almost 10 minutes in before I realized that it was in German without subtitles.

Because the first 10 minutes are just this lady dancing around naked. Yeah. And then finally they start talking and it’s in German. And so I turned it off and I told him and he sent me subtitles. It was fine, but honestly, I. I could have watched it without the subtitles and understood it as well as I did.

It just didn’t make any sense. 

Todd: It was still, yeah, it doesn’t have much of a plot and, and I think that’s a strength of it actually, honestly, because if it made more sense, it would probably be even dumber. I, I, I mean, look, this is just one tiny movie out of a gigantic. Gigantic pool of similar type films from the sixties, unless you were seeing major Hollywood productions in the sixties or Campy B movie, PG Black and White B movies or whatever, that were still being produced then.

There’s this huge thing in the middle where with the sexual liberation, and of course Europe has always been more, you know, sexually liberal when it comes to filmmaking and things Yeah. And stuff like that. And didn’t have all the restrict codes and stuff like that. But these films were being pumped out by the thousands and we’re not just talking horror, um, we’re talking.

You know, sort of swinging spy comedies, like crazy slapstick, sex comedies, erotic globe trotting adventure kind of things. Like you can say they’re erotic because they have lots of boobs and things in them. What they don’t have is hardcore sex. In fact, usually not even like that much sex, sex at all. It’s mostly about leering at at naked women.

And again, that runs the gambit as well. Some of them were more exploitative than others. Some of them had more art to them. Some of them were just cheaply made and put out, you know, as fast as possible to, to get money. And this, I think I would, is definitely on more on that end of the spectrum. But this isn’t porn and it’s not.

I mean, of course to modern sensibilities. This is not the movie that anybody makes today. Nobody makes a movie like this now, right? They have no appeal anymore. But back then, this was huge. Women in prison movies, I mean, this is the movies like this, were were a lot of stars that we end up seeing. In horror movies, you know, a decade or two later, sometimes got their start in blaxploitation films are not far removed from this kind of thing too, with the sex and all that and the, and the nudity and things.

And so, um, Pamela Greer, I think got her were, was in several of Jess Franco’s women in prison movies before she broke out. So I, I don’t wanna just roundly dismiss this for what it is, you know what I mean? But that’s not 

Craig: fair either because I, I, I can get behind. All of that. Like erotica is nothing new.

Erotica is, you know, a tale as old as time and, and there still is a market, I think for like soft core stuff. Yes. Which I would argue that this kind of is, you’re right. It’s not porn. I’m just being, I, I’m exaggerating, but that’s it. It feels this movie, I I, I, I’m sure there are. Better quality films in this category that I would have despised less than I despised this movie because this movie just for sure, it, it doesn’t take any care.

I have literally seen porn movies that are better than this movie, just in a cinematic or narrative 

Todd: way. Yeah. But I’ve also seen some that are, are, are way worse, mean. Well obviously, 

Craig: but we’re talking about 19. I don’t wanna get into a whole discussion about what our porn preferences are, but like I’m talking about, I’m talking about movies that were made around this time, and there’s all kinds of scandal, you know, when it comes to the porn industry at this time.

But I’m talking about things like, um, deep Throat or, uh, The Devil and Ms. Jones, you know, like these were hardcore porn movies a little later, but Yeah. Huh. Right. That, um, kind of infiltrated the mainstream kind of for the first time in large part because, not to say necessarily that they were great movies, but at least there was a little bit of care with narrative and storytelling and, and, That kind of thing.

And God, I don’t know. I, I, I, I, I think, I don’t want people to think that I’m only being critical because of the lascivious nature of the movie. I don’t care about that. I am not, I. Uh, prude. I’m right. I’m not a prude. I’m not, I’m not opposed to nudity. I’m not opposed to graphic stuff. I, I’m not opposed to actual pornography.

I support sex workers. I am not prudish in that way. I just think that this is a shitty 

Todd: movie. Okay. So yeah. So let’s talk about on those merits. I agree. I mean, it is a shitty movie. Uh, it’s a shitty exploitation movie. Not unlike many that came out around this time. I do think it does have a little bit more care, but we can talk about that.

I mean, I, I felt like the movie itself. Had a sort of dreamlike quality that would pop in and out every now and then and, and then it would put you to sleep and where you would have actual dreams. Well, dreamlike 

Craig: in that, it makes no sense and you have no idea what’s going on. 

Todd: Yeah. But it in initially anyway, I found that intriguing initially.

I found that intriguing until I got into the movie and realized that it wasn’t going to commit to that at all, you know, and it was just, uh, the rest of it was just kind of sloppy and boring and pedantic. It 

Craig: just, I just felt like it failed on every level. Like I felt like it was trying to, to do something and failing, like I don’t understand the weird ass creepy chanting that would just pop in every once in a while.

Now 

Todd: you’re talking about the soundtrack, and I’ll tell you the reason that I bumped this up higher end, the top of the list is because I recently discovered the soundtrack and I thought the soundtrack was killer. Did you 

Craig: listen to it? No. In a different context. I think I could have appreciated. The score, it was very reminiscent of like 

Todd: seventies porn.

Uh, no, no. I mean, seventies porn is like jazz and stuff. I think this is reminiscent of, um, this is like psychedelic type music. 

Craig: It, it made me think of like Austin 

Todd: Powers, like Yes, exactly, exactly. Like Austin Powers type psychedelic. Uh, type music and this was just Franco’s first film to, to have this kind of score behind it.

And I thought that the juxtaposition of this bouncy kind of happy, kind of psychedelic music along with what. Otherwise, I mean, if I was just shown this imagery and asked to score it, it would’ve been very different from that. Right. You know, I would’ve been trying to make it more mysterious and kind of, uh, sensual.

Sensual and stuff. And this is just, even when what’s happening on the screen is very slow and like over the top, I don’t even wanna say dramatic, just like plotting along of just these, like, you just get really long takes of nothing but. In one case, this woman doing this sort of lame dance performance on a stage that involves her slowly taking her clothes off and draping them over another naked woman, and then coming behind her and switching clothes with her and running her hand all over her body, and it’s just like, oh my God, this has been going on for 10 minutes and, and it, it’s putting me to 

Craig: sleep.

Yeah. And fortunately for us, We get to see it twice. This like twice. Yeah. The same routine. Like, it’s not like they just mm-hmm. It’s not like they filmed it once and then showed it twice. Like she just does the same thing twice. Right. And it goes on literally at, I would have to say a good five minutes.

And it feels much longer to the point where I, I was just like, I was intentionally trying to find something else to look at. I’m like, I’ve already 

Todd: seen this. Yeah, me too. Yet. Okay. Going back to the score though, yet this had this bepi cool music behind it, I thought. And so anyway, I fell in love with that music.

Uh, and I thought, well, a movie with this music scoring it. And, and this score was fairly recently rediscovered. Uh, I think some time in the, in the mid nineties they released. The score out called, uh, vampire Russ Lesbos Psychosexual Dance Party, and, uh, released it in Britain and it, it was a bit of a hit for a while, right?

And you can go fight on YouTube. And I sent that to you. Like I said, before I even saw the movie, I, I heard the score and I thought, God, if the score is this good, at least that’s gonna be entertaining and that probably was one of the more entertaining things of the movie fair.

That being said, uh, it also was a little reminiscent of the kind of stuff that Goblin and Argento do with the chanting that seems to come in at odd places that I would argue. Makes things a little unsettling. I mean, it’s bizarre tonally, but it’s bizarre in a way that kind of, I don’t know what it, it just plays with your senses a little bit and um, I find it a little unsettling.

I found parts of this film, the parts that weren’t boring as hell were a little unsettling at times, and I think that’s an accident, honestly, and maybe more a function of the editing than is actually the filmmaking. And of course, the nonsensical nature of the plot. Adds a dreamlike quality to the whole thing.

Whether you want to give him credit for that, being intentional or not, but you know, on its merits as a completed film, I actually found the first 10 minutes I. Intriguing, as intriguing as any other of these horror movies from about this era that are kind of trying to do something different or trying to be a little more art housey, we, we start off with that weird dance sequence, like you said, which is more, more or less happening in what would be like, I guess a sixties era, what you might call strip club.

Yeah. In Istanbul where things are just a little more like, um, burlesque, kind of like this has some pretensions. To arch. She’s got a candle, laba and a mirror and, and all that. And, and it’s this woman who we talked about earlier playing, uh, the Countess Carey, but we don’t know any of this. All we know is something weird’s happening on stage.

And I thought that was kind of captivating. And then we see that there are people watching it and there’s this back and forth cutting between her and the woman you mentioned later, uh, Linda, uh, who is kind of our main character played by UA Stromberg, um, who’s sitting with a guy named Omar, who’s like her boyfriend or something.

And every 

Craig: shot of. Her is just her like dead face and wide-eyed, like, 

Todd: well, I mean, I thought that was more to show that she was getting turned on by it, I guess. Oh God, it’s closing in her eyes and all that. 

Craig: Yeah. Um, the, the, the opening sequence, it was, I mean, it was surreal to an extent because I, I very surreal, I think.

At Well, with the music largely adds to that. But, uh, I think at first, now I could be wrong, but I think that at first the other naked woman on stage appears to be a mannequin. Yeah. Um, but, but then when she starts interacting with it, it’s obviously a person. Mm-hmm. So, I, I didn’t know if that was. I don’t know what it was supposed to be.

I, I, I honestly don’t know. It, it, it is, I mean, to be fair, it is erotic. These are beautiful women. You know, this scene stand alone, I don’t hate, it’s just, In the context of this movie that I hate, it’s, I, I don’t know. I, uh, 

Todd: you’re not gonna, you’re not gonna give it too much credit cuz there’s really no payoff ultimately.

Right. Exactly. 

Craig: For Yeah, I get that. She, she, I have in my note, um, vamp lady touches herself and front of a mirror. There are a bunch of pervs watching. I also know that this was and is a thing like these sorts of erotic performances, even live sex shows are a thing. I can, I’ve, I remember I went to Amsterdam and other people when I was studying abroad and other people, uh, kind of in my study abroad group had gone to Amsterdam and had gone to live sex shows and I had absolutely no interest.

Yeah. I can’t imagine sitting in a room full of other people. Watching people have sex. Like that’s just 

so, 

Craig: yeah, I don’t get it. 

Todd: That’d be difficult for me. But, uh, is you, you’re 

Craig: sitting in and I, I was gonna go down a, a road that I’m not going. 

Todd: Um, well, the, well, they’re not having 

Craig: sex. No, they’re, well, they’re not.

I mean, she, no, they’re not. Uh, but she’s definitely touching this other woman’s body and, um, in sensual ways, and, and it is, it is sensual and erotic. I think that this, the actress does a good job and, and, uh, obviously is vulnerable in doing all of this in the nude, and, and she has a beautiful body and all of that.

So I’m not critical necessarily of. That in particular, you’re right, the bl the blonde who we come to find out is Linda in the audience is totally into it, but then like it’s cutting between the show and her face and then just all these weird images. Yeah, like drops of blood dripping down a window. Um, a scorpion that we see 500 

Todd: times.

Yeah, a kite. A kite kite flying through the air. Yeah. Some cabanas like by a seaside dock and somewhere we, I think we, we learn as a Turkey, or this is all taking place in Turkey too, and was shot in Turkey. And I loved seeing actually some of that late sixties footage of Turkey. Uh, but, but yeah. But, but it’s, it’s, it’s a little, it throws you off a little bit because then there’s this.

Linda, I, Linda, I’m calling you Linda. Linda.

And with all those shots you’re like, is this supposed to be where they are? Are we moving on to a new spot? No, this is her dream. Yeah, right. Like 

Craig: after the show, 

Todd: I guess. Yeah. And she’s being haunted by this woman. Right. Like there’s a sense that she feels like she’s being called, like she can’t get this out of her mind and there’s this, this, this voice and there’s all these images that she can’t make sense of.

And the next thing we see is she’s in a psychiatrist, uh, office. She’s laying down talking to her therapist and she’s saying, describing this. And that’s when it finally grounds, oh, okay, now we know it’s a dream. Okay, now we know she’s haunted. She’s describing this to her, her therapist, who is haha.

Drawing pictures instead of actually making notes. And she’s telling him that she was aroused by this and he says, look, I think this means you’re just sexually frustrated. You need to find a lover, a better lover. And so she returns to their seaside resort by the beach. And she, and actually I don’t think this is a resort.

I think this is where she lives cuz she works, uh, for this company called Simpson. And Simpson, which is so 

Craig: clunky. Like they just, oh, it’s super clunky. They just, they, they have. To, they just need to get her to this vampire lady somewhere. So, oh, I work somewhere where I have to go talk to this lady about an inheritance 

Todd: clunkier than that because we see her in her office.

It’s like, what? Like a 32nd scene Uhhuh, where somebody comes up to her and says, oh, miss, uh, there’s this thing, and there’s this account, and there’s this account. And then she stops her and just announces to her coworker, oh, I need to go to Anatolia to see the account as carat about an inheritance. Like what?

Yeah. And then boom, she’s now going to these islands on a boat, right? Yeah. To this island? Yeah. And she’s at the hotel, but the boat has already left to take her to. This other place. So she said, the guy there says that the Countess has booked a room for her. And so this weird guy, NAIT who works there, I, I 

Craig: called him Igor cuz I didn’t know his name.

And that’s what he reminded me of, this little hunchback guy. Like I, I expected him when he was leading her to her room to say, Walk this way. Like, yes, 

Todd: he had that vibe. And, and this is the director of the movie, by the way. This is Jess Franco and Oh, 

Craig: that’s hilarious. I wish I had known that. Mm-hmm. I would’ve thought that was funny.

Yeah. But it’s really funny because like, he takes her to her room and he, it seems like its kind of maybe kind of putting the moves on her or something, but, uh, she. Like lays down and has a little nap, ma um, and wakes up and then, and then goes walking around the building, this hotel or whatever. And um, Igor like pulls her aside and is like, don’t go to that island, death lives there, or something like that.

And then he is like, come to the wine cellar later. And by later, yes, by later it’s, he meant. Five 

Todd: seconds from now. Yeah, the next scene, because 

Craig: she goes there, sees him torturing a woman and goes about her business like yes. Never does, doesn’t say anything to him, doesn’t report it to anybody else, just.

Todd: Moving on. Yeah. Gets on her boat. Uh, that was pretty jarring. Oh, but what, but when she gets to the island, uh, we see that it is like the cabanas from her dreams, and she sees the same kite flying in the air and all. That’s again, she said, we get some images, the scorpions or, you know, walking around. Well, like where she is, there’s Linda and there’s this man with groovy sunglasses watching her from behind a net.

It’s her renfield. Yeah. Her renfield or her familiar? Yeah. And uh, yeah, uh, she enters the cabana’s like is, hello, is anyone home? And, uh, she can’t really find anybody. And then she wanders outside and boom, there is Countess Carroty laying out in a bikini. And her suggestion is, Hey, before you get settled down, why don’t we go swimming?

But I didn’t bring 

Craig: my bathing suit. Oh my God. That’s okay. 

Todd: No need to be shy. Nobody can see you here. So they go out and then we have a nice swinging sixties, like skinny dipping, lounging on the beach kind of a bit, right? With the upbeat music and yeah. And then they’re back at the long table in the cabana with two candle labber having dinner and they have some discussion that’s finally gonna try to move this plot forward a little bit.

Yeah. So stupid. The, uh, 

Craig: the, what’s her name? Nadia, is that her name? Um, she’s like, uh, no, actually Linda’s like, so you inherited this estate from Dracula? Do you know? Do you know Dracula? 

Todd: That’s right. 

Craig: And the Countess like, yeah, my family knows him or whatever. Like they don’t really talk about it. And then there’s just some very intense eye gazing.

Yes. And then, and then 

Todd: the Countess. Lots of zooming and panning. By the way, tons of zooming in this movie. Oh my God, there’s so many. And she, the 

Craig: Countess pours them wine and the Countess is like, I love red wine. 

Todd: So 

Craig: stupid. And then, and then Linda. Linda has like one drink of this wine. I don’t know if it’s roofie or what, but she immediately has a headache and like maybe I better lie down and immediately passes out on.

The table. Yep. Mm-hmm. And the creepy guy who is, what’s her name’s, familiar or whatever, his name’s Morpho. Hilarious. Morpho than magnificent. He, she’s like, she just, she just snaps at him like a dog. Like she never says anything. Uh, like she’s like morpho. Well, and he never talks, and he just does whatever she wants him to do.

I loved that 

Todd: part. Right. He’s under her spell, 

Craig: so he carries her to bed. This all happens. So quickly and still feels like so slowly. I swear to God. I was looking at the timestamp every couple of minutes. Yeah. And 15 minutes in I was like, oh my God, there’s still an hour and 15 minutes left. And it felt like that the whole time.

Yeah, it’s true. He, he carries her and puts her in a bed and then, The Countess appears when she wakes up. The Countess is in her room, like behind some billowy curtains. There are lots of billowing curtains in this movie. Mm-hmm. And she’s standing there. She has blood on her lips. Why? I have no idea. And then in my notes, the next thing I have is uncomfortable boob fondling.

Kissing and then they, like, they get down on the floor and I don’t know, she’s fondling her boobs and kissing her and stuff. I’m not sure what they’re doing. Yeah. And then so the Countess bites her neck and is like sucking on it for a while and then comes up and is slobbering. Bloody slobber all over her and it was the most unsexy thing I have ever seen.

Todd: It was definitely not sexy. It was gross, 

Craig: it was disgusting. It looked like real saliva like, like she just built up a whole mouthful of saliva and then like popped a little blood capsule in there or something and it just ran out of her mouth. It was disgusting. 

Todd: A low budget movie, I’m sure that’s exactly what happened.

So gross. Uh, Linda’s passed out by now, and then she wakes up by herself. She goes downstairs and walks outside to find the Countess floating dead in the pool. Yeah, but why does she just assume that she’s dead? Well, I mean, her eyes are open and she’s floating there not moving, and she’s got the blood on her mouth.

I don’t know. She, she, she does, she, you’re right. She makes no effort to go out and go, Hey, are you okay? Well, we have no idea what happens 

Craig: because the next time we see Linda, she’s like catatonic in a hospital. And, and we find out through dialogue that she was like found on the beach and has amnesia. Yeah.

Todd: It’s, it’s a pretty jarring cut to this other woman that you’re talking about who I also thought that it was Linda. I. At first 

Craig: because they’re identical twins. The o, well, the only difference is the agra, well, they call her Ara. She looks, she looks maybe a little bit older and she has slightly shorter hair.

Those like beyond that, they are both platinum blondes. With long hair. Yeah. Ice, blue eyes 

Todd: like every other actress from this era. Yeah. That’s, that’s a common problem with these movies, honestly, that I have Anyway. They’ve all got the same hairstyle, the hair, same hair color, the same makeup. Well, she’s, uh, we, we find out she’s in a room in some kind of facility, which turns out to be Dr.

Seward’s private clinic. This guy, what an asshole. 

Craig: Yeah, he’s such douche bag. Both of the doctors in this movie are such douche bag, but this guy’s particularly douchey and 

Todd: Oh, this the Dr. Steiner? Yeah. The one who kind of comes running in. I don’t whichever one 

Craig: is like, yeah, he’s an ass treating these women, but is also.

Interested in the occult and blabbers on and on and on about the, he’s so annoying. Well, 

Todd: this Agra gal is, is supposed to be like the Lucy, I think of this particular version of Dracula. Cuz we, we come to find out she, she is, she’s coming back. I knew it. She’ll take hold of me again and I’m so happy, you know, help me so she won’t leave me again.

Right. So, uh, yeah, she’s kind of fl flipping 

Craig: out. She, this guy, she’s great. She’s a previous lover, but I, mm-hmm. And, and I guess, That is Nadine’s Mo. That’s what she does. She lays it out. She tells Morpho, like Morpho doesn’t know. Yeah, she 

Todd: eventually just says, right? Like, well, we need to know. She Right.

Craig: That’s what it’s for. There, there, I mean, we can talk more about backstory and exposition in a second, but basically what she says is she loves women and, um, she loves seducing women and that’s what she does. And, but, Yeah, she’s obsessed with or in love with Linda. This one’s different. Yeah, she’s actually really obsessed with this one.

So Agra is just some former woman that she has done this to, who she doesn’t care about, but also like these, those scenes with, um, Agra were really uncomfortable because she appears to be either in sexual ecstasy or. Painfully horny like,

Todd: like somebody needs to get this woman a vibrator. Something 

Craig: immediately, like on an emergency basis, like, get out the emergency vibrator because this woman is in need, 

Todd: needs release badly. 

Craig: But it was un, it was uncomfortable to watch because she’s just writhing around like. Touching herself, like thrusting her pelvis into the floor, moaning and groaning all the 

Todd: time.

Honestly, I couldn’t tell if it was just poor acting on the part of a person who’s supposed to be an an agony or if it was supposed to be. Very, very sexual. Oh, I 

Craig: think it was definitely supposed to be sexual and as it was very uncomfortable. But whoever that poor actress was, she went for it. Like, 

Todd: did she did?

Good for you? And they don’t cut away. I mean, I think this is part of the cheap nature of this. There’s not a lot of cutting here. So these scenes play out in like one long take. And like I said, if there needs to be camera movement, The camera’s on a tripod and it’s just zooming in there and panning over there.

Like, there’s no dolly shots in here. There’s no, there’s very little care taken to filmmaking. In fact, the, these scenes up in her room and anything that does not have a naked woman involved. It seems to be lit very poorly and uh, kind of just poorly filmed. Yeah. When there is a naked woman involved, it’s like, oh yeah.

Beautifully lit cheese cloth. Very, I mean, there’s a very big stylistic difference between the two things, and it was, and, and even times when it’s just out of focus. Yes. In some of these, right, which is really irritating, right? Like if there 

Craig: are no boobs, what’s there to look at? Like why even bother to focus the camera?

Todd: Exactly.

I love this though. This is just 

Craig: fun. No, it’s infuriating because apparent, apparently, Linda is also under this doctor’s care. She has amnesia. She doesn’t even know who she is until she just does, and then she just doesn’t have 

Todd: amnesia anymore. Yeah. That’s right. Yep. Can’t remember her name. Can’t remember anything until eventually she does five seconds after 

Craig: saying she has amnesia and, and like her boyfriend comes to fetch her because he read about this mystery woman in the paper.

He is like, oh, she’s missing. 

Todd: So that must be her. It must be her. And I came about the woman you found on the beach. Yeah. That God, 

Craig: yeah, I’m here about that woman. Oh, it, yeah. Then she doesn’t have. Full amnesia anymore, but she doesn’t, she says, I don’t remember what happened on the island except. For everything that happened.

Like, 

Todd: except all I’ve, all I’m seeing in my head is a dead naked count as parody floating at a swimming pool. And I’m, I wonder if it was just a dream or not. And all of this is done in voiceover where we see them walking around, kind of like going into cafes and kind of hanging out at their house or whatever.

And the me and this is cutting, uh, with shots of count as Carey. Clearly very much alive, looking at them through like panes of glass or from like a cafe across the street from Windows that we can’t see because it’s, it’s framed up too tightly. And again, this is another spot where I actually felt like the movie was doing a decent job of.

Throwing a little mystery my way. You know, I, I didn’t know was it a dream? Like, so much of that was surreal anyway, and now she’s out of it, and now they’re cutting to count as Carey, who’s clearly alive, and she’s, she’s looking onto her. So, so she’s not dead. Was she pretending to be dead? Did I, you know, all of that.

I, why did she just leave her? Like, I kind of had these questions, don’t get me wrong. The, the movie doesn’t really satisfactorily answer any of this. And I don’t think it’s that sophisticated, but I thought that at this point in the movie, we were getting back to the, what I was feeling in the very beginning, which was this interesting cutting and editing that created this real surreal kind of dreamlike, kind of off-putting quality, all with that psychedelic music behind it that I just wasn’t sure I knew what was going on.

You 

Craig: say interesting. Cutting and editing. I would say sloppy. Like, it just, it feels like it’s just slopped together. 

Todd: Well, you see the, you see the scorpion again. You see the kite again. You know, you get to see calls back to those things. And I’m thinking these are symbolic. I feel like he was trying to create sort of an art housey type movie, cuz it certainly has a bit of that feel to it.

I, I 

Craig: guess, but it’s just not, it’s not well done. Like no, I, I’m pretty, I’m pretty sure that Nadine watches Omar and Linda. Bang. Um, and then Linda wakes up from that to more psychic calling, and she’s just buck naked, just strutting around. Mm-hmm. And then I can’t imagine that this was for a stylistic purpose, but you’ve got this shitty Hey, handy cam shot.

Of Nadine Wa or one of them walking up. It’s Linda, I think, walking up this spiral staircase now that the, the space in which it is shot is beautiful and it’s lit really in an interesting way. It’s like red and she and white and walking up these. Uh, this winding staircase, but it’s just, it looks like somebody’s shooting it on their phone.

Like it’s shaky. 

Todd: Yeah. Uh, I thought it was a little 

voyeuristic. 

Craig: All right. That’s fair. If it, if, if it’s meant to be a POV shot. Yeah. Okay. Uh, I don’t know if that’s the case, but if so, then 

Todd: Okay. She’s kind of found herself to that house, so like it, this is super clunky. There’s a, now there’s like a 

Craig: house. I think that Nadine.

Is in the same hotel that they’re in? I think that, no. Yeah, I think she’s just in a different 

Todd: room. Oh really? I think so. 

Craig: I don’t know. I could be wrong, but she, because Linda just wakes up and gets out of bed with Omar and walks around and ends up in 

Todd: Nadine’s room. Well, yeah, she like walks around outside.

She’s like outside climbing steps and things like Is she outside? Yeah, there’s a shot of her. She wakes up from Omar, she walks outside. Then there’s a shot of her walking up the steps outside to this big house, which is called the Urs Ursula house or something. I don’t remember it like it’s referenced earlier.

Oh, okay. 

Craig: Well I missed that, but it’s not in Nadine’s house. No, 

Todd: it’s not the beach house. It’s not the beach house. No. This is like nad uh, it is referenced later. We don’t really know what it is. All we see is that, um, Nadine is in there. There’s this really long scene, like you referenced earlier, that’s just this long exposition where she’s telling nobody.

In particular except Morpho. Um, she’s basically saying, uh, oh, this was my father’s house. It was a hundred or 200 years ago. I don’t remember. Uh, but suddenly the count appeared, count Dracula. I looked down and I saw fighting going on outside, and there were soldiers in battle and stuff. And, and Count Dracula was killing people, I guess.

And he stuck a knife into the soldier lying on top of me. Honestly, I couldn’t figure out 

Craig: what all this was. Some, some, uh, some forces were like raiding or pillaging. Yeah. That, that village and they were, uh, raiding the homes and raping women in the, the street. Right. And, uh, Dracula rescued her from that.

But then bit. Yeah, bit her and presumably became her lover and she didn’t like it. Came back to her night after night and eventually when she was on the point of death, then he turned her and made her a vampire. But she doesn’t like men. She is Vampiro. 

Todd: Yes. And she says, Women are captivated. She’s captivated by women, and women are captivated by her.

So she, she steals their identities and becomes them, is kind of what she says, and, which I don’t understand. I don’t know. You know, it’s clunky to just throw all this into one’s dumb monologue that this woman just lays on a, a sofa and just speaks to the air. But that’s, that’s what we get. So now we know why she’s a vampire.

Kind of her relation to Dracula and why she’s a lesbian, a, a male hating lesbian. Yeah. Um, I guess we had to have a reason back in the seventies for, for this, I guess. Yeah. But she says out loud, now she’s met Linda, and now I’m under her spell. I must initiate her into my circle. 

Craig: Right. And, and so that’s, so Linda somehow ends up in her room and she’s like in a.

Trance. And Nadine gives her a chalice to drink from. And she does. And she nadine’s like, she’s like, that was blood. Did 

Todd: you notice that was blood? Did you notice that was blood? 

Craig: So stupid. And then, and then she says, you’re one of us now. Um, the queen of the night will bear you up on her black. We blah, blah, blah.

Then there’s they more lesbian 

Todd: sex. Lesbian sex time. Yeah. Intercut with, uh, with Agra, who now has a sort of phallic, God, I guess she, she’s her, oh my God. She has a 

Craig: giant clown dildo. Yeah. She, somebody, somebody helped her out and it d I don’t think it’s, is it, is it literally a dildo? I don’t think that it is, but it’s so 

Todd: phallic.

I don’t think it is, but it’s suggestive of a PHUs, yeah. Uhhuh that she somehow now has in her bed with her for some reason, that again, she’s. She’s going through her ecstasy or whatever, just kind of caressing it with her hands. It’s so, it’s so charmingly. 1960s eroticism from Europe. Maybe I kind of like look a little more kindly on these things and roll my eyes in, in, in a different way than you do because it, it’s, it just kind of tickled because of your worldly sensibilities.

Craig: No, no. It’s just the same and I’m just this dumb American. 

Todd: No, it’s because. We, I think we have the same thing about the Gilo. You know, I just like this time period, I like the o the, the costumes and the things. I like the silly sensibility that, you know, is totally foreign to us now. The dumb cheesecake, like this is what turned people on back then, obviously doesn’t anymore.

But I, I find that charming and fun to watch as opposed to getting angry at it and, Wondering why I’m wasting my time, you know? Well, I 

Craig: don’t know. Yeah, that, that pretty much sums up how I felt about it, so I, I guess, 

Todd: right. 

Craig: Again, like I said, it’s just that it’s a bad movie. It’s not about the lesbian sex and stuff like that.

Like I don’t have any problem with that. It’s just that the movie’s not good. No, it’s not, it wasn’t fun to watch. It wasn’t interesting. I was angry about it. I still am a little bit. Okay, so, um, then Nadine feeds on Linda again, and when that happens, Agra freaks out. I don’t really 

Todd: know why. Yeah, probably like, you know, just been passed on to the new person.

She’s been left on the cold, but then she 

Craig: feels it, it cuts to a scene. In the psychiatric hospital. Yeah. Where the, where the doctor is, like in his office or the lobby or whatever. And Omar, the boyfriend is there, but he’s like catatonic. Yeah. Because he’s lost a lot of blood. What, when? 

Todd: Why she bit him? She did.

She bit him. There was a scene. Well, we never saw it explicitly, but it was implied because after Linda got up and wandered around and had, they had their thing, there was a shot of Omar laying in his bed, but his eyes were open, but he wasn’t moving. And uh, Nadine was standing outside, kind of staring at him and I thought, okay, she’s gonna bite him next.

But we don’t see it happen. Of course. But, but the doctor says, don’t worry. It’s okay. I mean, I’ve studied a lot of vampire lore. You are safe. You can’t cross over into their world. But Linda is different. She’s in danger. So, Su this is after Omar suddenly wakes up and he is better. Like a scene later. Yeah.

Immediately. Right. And it’s like, uh, who knows how and why. Like the, the dots are connected by anybody in this movie that suddenly now we’re all talking about vampires very matter of factly and talking about who’s in danger and who’s not. Up until now, everything was supposed to be a great mystery, but now it seems like Dr.

Seward kind of knew all along what was going on, and he was digging through his books to try to figure it all out, you know? Yeah. 

Craig: It’s bizarre. And so now we know that Nadine is Indo Linda and Linda’s of Vampire, and the, the doctor says that she’s in danger, and he tells her the only way you can kill a vampire is by, you know, a, a fatal blow to the head.

You either have to take an axe and split their head open, or you have to like, uh, Put a rod in their, Pierce it with the bar. Yeah. Right in their head. And so that’s some new vampire Lord, see. Well, which is fine. I mean, this, uh, it, it defies convention, you know, she is out in the daytime all the time, so, yeah.

I, I have no idea what the vampire qualities are here, but that’s how you have to kill them. You have to destroy their head. And then apparently they needed to, I don’t know why this happens, but, Um, Igor, I don’t know his real name. Um, but e Igor Kidnaps Linda? Yes. And, and 

Todd: takes, 

Craig: oh, this is so embarrassing.

The scene takes her, takes her to his torture. Cellar. Oh my God, it’s so stupid. Yeah, this 

Todd: is really dumb. 

Craig: And, and, and goes on and on. Like, you, you, you, I suppose you could play the clips. I don’t know how many German fans we have.

He rambles for like three or four minutes about 

Todd: nonsense. It’s nonsense. It’s random garbage. It’s clumsy and yeah, and he, he, 

Craig: he says he’s gonna torture her because he loves her and he hates her. And is he the one who says something stupid like, Uh, my hate and my love for you are infinite. Yes. Yes, yes. And and she still has the last dead woman that she full knew well about and didn’t tell anybody.

So it’s her own fault, I suppose. Then she, she kills, she, she tricks him into untying her, and she kills him with a hacksaw, 

Todd: which we don’t even get to see. There’s no, there’s no blood or anything. No, but because, 

Craig: because she’s missing. Omar and the therapist, I don’t know, one of these stupid men, doctors, Omar, and one of these stupid men, doctors believe that, uh, Nadine must have her.

So they go to Nadine’s house and go in and they’re snooping around. And then Nadine says, morpho and. Morpho shoots at them and they run away. Like it’s just the funniest thing, like, oh, we, we think that she’s in there, but somebody shot at us, so we just have to leave. And like, 

Todd: that’s just it. And then they go to the nightclub again.

We get to see the Countess do the exact same performance, more or less, all over again. Uhhuh. In another 10, 15 minute exploitation scene of two women naked. That was the point at which I was like, oh God. And I was, I mean, it wasn’t the first time, but I was definitely wandering around the house waiting for that to be done.

Uh, but then at the end of this one, she actually bites that woman on stage. It kills her, right? And. Kills her, which it’s not clear at the time, but later Omar, Omar says to the doctor, this local performer killed this woman on stage plus Linda’s missing and all that. I think they’re all connected. And somebody had said something to him about the house on the hill.

Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. He, he very clumsily starts to put it all together. So they decide they need to go up, up to the house, 

Craig: but they don’t stay cuz they get shot at. And then immediately, yeah. But then, but then immediately we see Ru Linda. Running on the beach towards the house. And she does. She arrived.

Mm-hmm. This makes no sense to me. She pounds on the doors. We are forced to look at that scorpion dying underwater. Now obviously this is meant to be symbolic, but it is just so heavy handed. Like, I get it. Yeah, I get it. But it 

Todd: doesn’t make any, scorpion is the vampire and now it’s dying. And now it’s 

Craig: dying.

So she goes in and Nadine is like, you know, just in a garter belt. And a like a scarf or something laying on the bed and she says, the end has come from, come from me. I don’t understand what is happening 

Todd: here. Why is she dying? I don’t know what happened. I don’t know. And, and it, I’m not sure. It seems like Seward got choked out.

We missed that bit. Seward got choked out by her. Familiar. Oh yeah. Whatever. 

Craig: Who cares? 

Todd: Did she get shot at one point? Maybe she did get shot. 

Craig: I don’t remember her getting shot. I don’t know what happens to her, but what it seemed like to me was that she needed Linda’s blood. And I think she kind of says that to Linda and Lin and Linda’s like, nah, refuse, 

Todd: don’t wanna, well, she says, I don’t want to be like you.

I don’t want to join you. 

Craig: Whatever. But so then Linda bites Nadine’s neck. Yes. And, and in my notes I have Nadine dies. Agra comes Linda stabs Nadine’s head. That’s, that’s the series of events. Oh, and then when she stabs Nadine in the head, she stabs her in the eye. We don’t see it when it happens. Instead, we see.

Uh, cherry flavored Kool-Aid spray up into Linda’s face. Right. Um, but we do then later see that, uh, it was her eye that had been stabbed because Morpho comes in, kisses the dead, Nadine, and takes the spike out and then kills himself with it. 

Todd: Yes. This is again, trying to be very artsy, I think. Uh, cuz it’s like, you know, it’s just kind of in, in reflection and all this, it’s so slow, uhhuh and just so boring.

And then finally the Scorpion has now drowned. Yeah. And I felt bad for that scorpion. I did too. I think, I think they probably really drowned a scorpion. You know? I’m sure they did screw those guys and the kite falls out of the sky and so, uh, you know, we kind of get that wraparound so, you know, it has some art to it.