2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

Where to begin. Well, it’s a practical effects extravaganza. You get double the storyline for your money. There’s a host of zany characters. When you have three credited directors, what could possibly be wrong? Before you check this one out, let our podcast prepare you for all the time you will wast….er, spend watching this “night of unrelenting terror”.

Episode 90, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.  I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  Today’s film, I chose. It is the 1986 film Spookies. It’s a movie with a fantastic cover art. I found out about this film with a great article that I found online in the dissolve called The Strange Saga of Spookies, which details the storied past of this film. This film, played in America briefly in the theaters. It also played in Hong Kong briefly, and you can kinda see that it might have played a little better for a Hong Kong audience, especially if you compare it to, the Boxer’s Omen that we did earlier. Not not quite as disgusting, but just as much, I think, a special effects extravaganza that just goes Right. Balls out. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  I know this movie from the cover art. I had actually purchased the VHS tape quite some time ago and never did watch it and then sold it or gave it away or threw it away or some point when we moved. So, I was happy to be able to sit down and watch this movie. It is on YouTube. It has not had a proper DVD release. So if you wanna watch it after we’re done talking about it, you can definitely go to YouTube and, and check it out. And you might want to. It is interesting, very interesting.   The film is actually the product of of a movie that, was shot, called Twisted Souls by 2 longtime horror fans who wanted to shoot a horror film, and, apparently, they came up with a movie called Hellbender or Hellspawn or something like that. We’re trying to get the financing for it and in the process met a man named Michael Lee. Michael Lee, very rich guy, decided to put up the money for this, film if, they would do another movie for him first, which he just said, make it about a bunch of teenagers, running around in a house getting killed. So with that detailed plot synopsis in mind, these two guys went and just wrote a crazy script, for a movie that apparently was pretty ambitious. It had a special effect on every other page. They later admitted it kinda bit off a little bit more than they could chew, but by golly, they shot it. And in the process, had some creative tension between them and the financer, Michael Lee, who according to the people involved in this film really didn’t know a lot about movies. And so these two guys just got super frustrated, and finally, Michael Lee, kicked him off, kicked them out and brought in, another person, to finish the movie.   Her name is Eugenie Joseph or Jeannie Joseph, so the result that we have now is Spookies, the result of Twisted Souls, which was the original title with all this extra footage added in pretty clumsily, And the directing credit is shared by Jeannie Joseph, Thomas Duran, and Brendan Faulconer, which is never a good sign when you have 3 directors on a film. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Yeah. Now you know a little bit about the movie going in. I knew this about it going in. If you don’t know this about about it going in, you’ll probably be even more confused by how crazy this film is. Craig, have you heard anything about this movie before I proposed it? 

Craig:  Gosh. I don’t know. You know, the title seems so familiar, but at the same time, I don’t think that I really knew anything about it. And all of that history you just explained, you sent me that article and then later texted me and asked me if I read it, and I said, yeah, the first part because it was super long. So I I I didn’t have all of the, information, but I watched the movie, and then I went back and, reread that article, and it becomes pretty clear. I mean, you can you can tell where the backbone of the movie is and then what was added in later. And so knowing that, it kind of explains a little bit why the movie maybe seems disjointed and and and the way it is, but I don’t know. Yeah.   No. Really watching it this time was the first time that I had really any experience with it. 

Todd:  You know, the the the title Spookies was suggested by Michael Land because apparently, they don’t want they didn’t wanna call it Twisted Souls. And he said, well, Goonies did so well. Let’s call it spookies. 

Craig:  That’s funny. 

Todd:  Yeah. Like like you could compare this to Goonies in the slightest. Yeah. Well, the movie starts out with kind of a shot of a graveyard of sorts and some a big house behind it. And one of the graves is, kind of bubbling a little bit. And there’s a kid. Right? It’s this weird it’s like the stone it’s like a stone slab with chains over it, and it’s, like, undulating, like it’s Jell O or something. 

Craig:  Yeah. Pulsating is like a common motif in this movie. That’s right. It’s it’s kinda weird. 

Todd:  There’s a lot of pulsating going on. They had a discount on, like, air bladders or something at the special edition. Oh, man. So, so there’s this kid named Billy walking through the woods, and it’s dark out, and it’s near this graveyard. And he sits down by a tree and opens up a sandwich and starts talking to himself and tells himself happy birthday. You kind of figure out that he’s running away from home, but the only way you figure that out is this man just in the dark up at who happens to be in a tree across from him, speaks up and is like, so, Billy, today’s the big day. First night away from home, kid. 

Clip:  What makes you say that? 

Todd:  You just seem kind of nervous. 

Clip:  I’m not nervous. You just startled me. 

Todd:  Give an old man a life. In the meantime, we’re getting insert shots of this creature that looks like it’s looking at them throughout the woods, almost like he’s stalking Billy. Kind of a werewolfy type creature. 

Craig:  It was all so random, like I and super, super dark, so I couldn’t really understand what was going on at first. At first, I thought that whatever this were creature was that was, like, you know, watching or whatever, I I thought that maybe it had transformed into this guy and was now talking to this kid. As it turns out, no, that’s not the case because as soon as the kid talks to this random stranger, about how he’s run away because his parents forgot his birthday or whatever, then he just walks away and the random stranger gets mauled and killed off screen by this were creature, and then, like, his corpse just falls into frame. So we see that yeah. I, like, I I really hadn’t I really had no idea. 

Todd:  So Billy walks towards the house, and he’s walking through a graveyard. And only because I was watching this on YouTube, and after it was done, it looped back onto another it was like, up next is, spookies. And I was like, oh, yeah. That’s great. Thank you, YouTube. I don’t need to see this one again. But, I was holding my son at the time, and I was just sitting there, and I couldn’t really stand up. So I ended up rewatching, unfortunately, the first 10 minutes of this movie.   And I caught something the second time around that he glances at a tombstone, and he makes a comment like, oh, this is weird. It doesn’t have a name on it, and then walks toward the house. And the second time, I looked at the dates on the tombstone, and it was like 1972 to 1985. 13 year old person. So I think that was supposed to be foreshadowing poor Billy’s death. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  A bit of sophistication in this movie more than you’d give it credit for. Yeah? Right. He approaches this house, and it’s this huge house. And he goes inside, and he’s like, woah, couldn’t be any colder in there than it is out here. And I guess he’s gonna just chill for the night. And this house is easy to get into, but there’s nobody there. And he walks in, and he finds a room that is decorated like a birthday party. And Billy thinking almost nothing of this, but walking up, balloons hanging from the ceiling, there’s a doll sitting in a chair there, there’s a birthday cake on the table, some presents, party favors laid out, and a card, and he picks up the card and he opens it and it says 

Clip:  Happy birthday, Billy, from all of us. Hey, surprise party. So you didn’t forget after all. This is really great. You can come out now. 

Todd:  But nothing happens. And so he’s like, alright. So I guess I should cut the cake now? Alright. I’ll go cut the cake. And he goes to the piss of a knife when he cuts the cake. Like, this whole scene is so stupid because 

Craig:  Yeah. It it’s so dumb. 

Todd:  Yeah. He’s in the dark 

Craig:  It’s so stupid. 

Todd:  In this spooky room, somehow half expecting that all of his friends and his parents broke into this house that he wandered into to set up a surprise. It’s a very elaborate surprise party for him. 

Craig:  Right. Anyway Makes no sense at all. 

Todd:  Some silly little things happen, and he says, oh, well, should I open up this present? You guys want me to open up this present? Alright. I guess I’m gonna open up the present then. And when he opens it up, this head in there goes, hey, happy birthday, Billy. And and Billy runs out screaming from the house. 

Craig:  He gets chased around by this creature, and I couldn’t figure out what this creature was. I was in my notes calling him Nightcrawler because he kinda looked like Nightcrawler from the X Men. This thing, whatever it is, chases him around for a long time. Like it’s this long chase of this weird thing chasing him around outside the house. And eventually it catches him and it scratches his face all up and then it buries him alive in like this totally unrealistic scene where it’s this creature is like throwing shovels of dirt onto this kid who’s just like flailing around in this grave. But I, yeah, but I guess we’re just supposed to believe that, this creature, whatever it is, is quick enough that it can just bury this kid alive. And I was kinda surprised by that because, you know, we get this kid right from the very beginning and then, he gets killed right right off. And and I didn’t see that coming.   I kind of expected Billy to be more of a part of the movie. But as it turns out, this is one of the scenes that was shot later, and inserted into the film. So, I mean, I guess it kinda makes sense that they there’s only so much they could do with them because he really wasn’t a part of the central plot line. But it’s just all confusing and and weird and it’s a good way to start out this movie because it’s gonna continue like that for the rest of the time. 

Todd:  Well, you don’t often see a werewolf stalking somebody and then picking up a shovel and starting frantically shoveling dirt on them. Sure. So bizarre. So bizarre. 

Craig:  I know. Meanwhile, we kinda get to the meat of the movie. Seriously, like, you there are 2 cars driving down the Todd, and, all I could say about these people was that it’s a bunch of assholes driving down the road for reasons that we don’t know. And, like, I that’s how I just kept referring to them. I’m, like, well, there’s the asshole in the suit jacket and the asshole, like, they’re all just, they’re all just these annoying, horrible people. And it doesn’t even make sense. Like, why are these 2 groups of people together? Because one of them is like a group of like thuggy, punky teenagers, and the other group is, like, these WASPy 

Todd:  Middle aged. 

Craig:  Business middle aged guys. And, like, like, apparently they know each other and they’re supposed to be going somewhere together, but they don’t really know where they’re supposed to be going. And I’m like, why would these people be hanging out together at all? It doesn’t make any sense. 

Todd:  Well, the guys in the car, like, the guys behind them, the the older man, you know, the older people who are following, make some comment about how they’re following this other guy who’s the dude straight out of Greece, thuggy guy, and they say something like I told you we shouldn’t have followed him. First, he starts a fight at that party, gets us all thrown out, embarrasses the hell out of us. Now he gets us lost out here in the middle of nowhere. And I’m thinking, what party were all these people at together? Right. Just like you said. 

Craig:  They end up at this mansion Todd. And this mansion apparently is the John Jay Estate, and John Jay was one of our founding fathers. And, like, so I guess they shot this really all at this big, southern mansion. I guess the crew stayed in the carriage house and like it was this whole big deal. And it it and if there’s anything interesting or cool about this movie, I thought that was kinda cool. But they all end up at this house and as it turns out, there’s some sort of like Craig keeper type guy who lives in this house, who has this beautiful girl in a coffin. And I guess the premise is supposed to be that this this was his wife, and now somehow through sorcery, he’s keeping her youthful and alive by killing people and and stealing their youthful essence in this mansion. And he says, 

Clip:  I can wait no longer. The final foolish victims will be here very soon and say, once again, we shall be together for all time. 

Craig:  First of all, he’s wearing what looks like a dime store Halloween mask that barely moves when he talks. Yeah. Yeah. And every time he talks and not only does he talk when he’s on screen, but he also does kind of some narrative stuff when he’s not on screen. It sounds like they put him in, like, a tin can and asked him to record all of his dialogue. Like, there’s this weird resonance going on with his voice. 

Clip:  For 70 years, I have waited. I have sacrificed the use of so many so that you might live and get to. I betrayed all my powers some way to make you see how helplessly I love you. 

Craig:  Basically, what it is, they get all these people into this big mansion, and it’s just a setup for them all to die in these crazy wackadoodle ways. I wish it were more fun than it than it is. Like, I I don’t know. How did you did you think that it was fun? Because it seemed like it should have been fun. It seemed like it seemed like and I think that really going in that their idea was, let’s be as off the wall as we can. Let’s have a new monster every few minutes. And and in theory, that sounds neat, but ultimately, it just seemed dumb. 

Todd:  Yeah. I’m the same way. I felt like this movie should have been a lot of fun, and there were a couple things I think that killed it. First of all, the fact that you just really don’t know what’s going on. And it’s not just that you don’t know what’s going on, but you get a sense that that nothing is go like, it’s just completely inept. And I think that’s the marriage of these two concepts. This guy and his bride popping in every now and then, and him sitting in front of a chess table talking about how he’s playing this intricate game of chess with these people, which is not an intricate game of chess with these people. And later on, like, you know, his bride wakes up, and so she’s, like, alive.   But this is, like, halfway through the movie. So it’s it’s not like 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  These people dying is is giving her any kind of new life. She’s already up. She’s already moving around. There’s almost a whole just separate movie playing out between him and this girl. Then, of course, the acting is absolutely terrible and they’re Oh, 

Craig:  it’s some of the worst acting I’ve ever seen. It’s so, so bad. And not only, you know, like the dialogue is bad. Like they didn’t have anything to work with really, but, I mean it’s just horrendous. My favorite is there’s this guy. I think his name is Rick. I think, I don’t know. I, I was trying to keep track of their names.   It doesn’t really matter, But there’s this I think his name is Rick, and he’s, like, the funny one. And he’s so over the Todd, like, it’s just ridiculous. Like, it seems like he’s doing stand up. And he’s wearing a t shirt with his own face on and, like, he has a puppet that, like, he kind of does some gags with. And, like, I thought that that might play more into it, and it, like, it might be a funny thing, but, like, he just does the shtick with the puppet for a little while in the beginning, and then you just see him running around with a t shirt with himself and the puppet on the t shirt. He was the worst, but, I mean, that’s not saying much because all of them, the acting was just terrible. Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd:  It was just bad. I mean, these lines and the staging of everything was terrible. And if you read, you know, this article, it sounds like from the film for the original filmmakers of twisted souls, it sounds like they had some very elaborate camera setups that they did with following shots and tracking shots and things that they say, like, with ideas behind them. But those got so chopped up, so all you get are these cuts from, you know, here to there to here to there. I don’t know. I I’d I’d find it hard to believe that even if you went and looked at those original shots that they were that interesting because even the most static shot in this film, which is, you know, 3 people or 4 people talking, looks like it was shot from across the room, and they’re awkwardly standing 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Kind of like they’re on stage. They’re they’re sort of facing each other, but they’re also sort of facing the camera as they talk. It all just looks so put together for the camera. None of it looks natural. And then the other thing that I think really ruins it is the horrible music. The music in this movie is so bad that it kills any tension that comes in any of these scenes and just makes them laughable. Like, I think the movie would be at least 10 times better, not to say it would be good, but it would at least be 10 times better if they had just kept all the music out of it. Whenever the music cuts in, and it cuts in a lot, and it’s this terrible synthesized kinda junk, It never seems to fit with the scene, that it’s over. 

Craig:  Well, it’s it’s just silly. I mean, like, the the music, everything about it, it just feels very after school special. Like, it just seems so low grade and so low budget. I would have rather seen Twisted Souls. I would have rather have just seen that because I feel like what they were going for was just this madcap. It’s not supposed to make any sense. It’s supposed to be silly and over the top. When Twisted Souls was over and they went back and put in other stuff, everything else that they put in was this old guy and his bride and and all of these minor characters that surround this old creepy guy, and it just seems forced and stupid.   Twisted Souls seemed like it was just gonna be kind of an Evil Dead romp. Like, here’s all this crazy shit that’s gonna happen. There’s just all these crazy monsters and special effects and and these kids getting picked off 1 by 1 by all this weird madcap stuff. And I think that it would have been more fun and it would have been a heck of a lot shorter if we had just gotten that. The extra stuff just seems to muddy it. Like it’s trying to take itself too seriously, and it it just doesn’t work at all. 

Todd:  Yeah. And the Evil Dead, influence is clearly here. One of the first things they do, Duke, the bad guy, opens up a door Yeah. Eyes open a door, and a, like, a mummy type I don’t know what you call it. Just some kind of, like, crazy Crop. Prop corpse. Thank you. That’s the best way to put it.   Falls out, and it looks just like it was ripped off of the evil dead. It’s holding like a box that they open up. 

Clip:  What’s this supposed to be? It’s sort of like a parcheesi game or something. I know what this is. I mean, I’ve never seen one like this before. It’s a Ouija board. Ouija board? That sounds stupid. They’re rich. This must belong to you. But there’s something missing.   It’s supposed to come with a, there. That’s the thing that fell out of the box on the shelf. Well, how do you play? Don’t you need dice or something? You don’t play. The Ouija board is a tool for communication. 

Todd:  Communication with mood. 1 of the girls who seems to know a lot about Ouija starts just spewing out of the the Wikipedia page on we on Ouija boards. And and, and then this is the point at which bless them for trying. The filmmakers trying to make a connection between these 2 separate stories. But at this point, our crypt keeper man, it’s like he’s possessing her. It looks like he’s trying to take control. And we get these odd close ups of his forehead. Like, his forehead is like there’s a vein pulsing in his forehead or maybe his head’s about to split open, and that goes nowhere.   Like, that just kinda happens and then that’s it. But then she turns into a deadite. I mean that’s the best way to describe it. Yeah. 

Craig:  There’s no other way to describe it. I mean that’s exactly what it is. It’s so silly to even talk about the plot because really from that point on, it’s just everybody else gets scared. And so then they start running around the house and then we get an hour of them separated, just running around the house and running into different things. And, like, at some points they’ll be really, really scared, and then at some points it’s just like they’re just hanging out. Yeah. Like a couple of ones that I remember and there’s no I’m not even gonna try to be linear in talking about this plot, it’s so dumb. But Duke and his girl, whoever Linda, I guess is her name, at some point they end up in a basement and Duke’s like, hey, I’m super horny, let’s do it.   Like, what? Like, you’re running you’re running for your life from, like, these demons, that you wanna take the time to bone in the basement of this creepy house. He even, like, he even throws a sheet over his head, I think, and says, oh, 

Clip:  look at me and poop the horny ghost. 

Craig:  Like, seriously? And and then and then the crown jewel of this movie, Linda is laying down on the ground, and she even says, like, it feels so good to lay down. Like, oh my Todd. And and and then these okay. So, like, these, zombie arms come out from the ground around her and grab her, and she gets up, and these creatures start to come up from under the ground. And we’ve already seen we’ve already had some Night of the Living Dead moments with people coming up out of the cemetery outside the house and and whatnot. But these are different. These are like these big, like, swamp thing monsters that come out. On IMDB, they refer to them as the muck monsters.   But they come out and then it’s just 2 minutes of them walking around farting. Every step they take is a fart noise. Oh my gosh. 

Todd:  It’s it’s hard to believe that that made it into the final cut of the movie. 

Craig:  It’s so silly and stupid and then the way that they kill them is that they realize somehow that they dissolve if they’re exposed to wine. So like they’re in this wine cellar and Linda, like, takes an axe and, like, axes wine barrel, and all this Wine just pours out. The if this movie had just been a series of those type of incidents, I would have applauded it and said, that’s hilarious. That’s funny. I see what you’re going for. But because they tried to put other stuff in and make it more than that and give it more of a cohesive plot, I’m like, nope. You lost me. This is just stupid.   Like, I’m done. 

Todd:  And the special effects are good. I mean, for for the eighties, the special effects alright. Well, I’m not gonna say they’re all good, but I’m gonna say there is a lot that went into them. Like those creatures, there’s one of the girls gets, gets attacked in a I think it’s the woman with the terrible British accent. 

Craig:  Yeah. Adrian, the smoking asshole. 

Todd:  The smoking British asshole. Her her her boyfriend or whatever dies or or husband or whoever it was. And then it’s like ghoulies, these these creatures 

Craig:  Yes. 

Todd:  Out. They look cool, though, but they’re like water creatures because they have like a they’re almost like giant nasty tadpoles because they have, like, a back to them, and they’re all dripping with slime. And they come at her from around the room, and it’s totally obvious that they only have, like, one of these puppets because they never show more than 1 at a time. And she’ll, like like, kill 1 or throw something over 1, and then another one will pop up that, you know, just just like the first. And, it’s it’s kind of a goofy scene, but, but those were cool creatures. They were better. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I know what you mean. When when you say good special effects and I scoff at that, I I know what you mean because it’s all very practical and in all honesty, you can tell that a lot of work went into these practical effects. Do they look great and real? Not necessarily. There’s a lot of like heads like expanding and glowing and like splitting into like vagina foreheads and things like from a practical perspective, yeah, I can tell a lot of work went into it. I could tell that there were people, you know, like pumping air into these faces or masks or whatever and they were passionate about what they were doing. It Todd doesn’t age well. I get it and I’m down for it.   It’s just that the the movie is so dumb overall that I’m just not very forgiving. 

Todd:  Well, you know, you always talk about x y z would be a good movie to have on the background during Halloween. Do you think this movie is one of those? 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because it’s it’s silly, you know, it’s silly but it’s Todd, God. I don’t even wanna say it’s fun. Like, I don’t even wanna give this movie any credit because it I it’s really, really bad. But, yes, if you were walking through a haunted house and this movie was playing on screens sporadically, Yeah, there’s some neat stuff to look at. Just in the context for me, it just doesn’t work. And again, I can’t say enough.   If it had just been the movie that the filmmakers originally wanted to make, I think what they were going for was off the wall, weird stuff all the time, and I would have just preferred to see that. Like, don’t give me too much of a storyline. Don’t give me this dumbass storyline about this, like, Frankenstein who’s trying to keep this young bride who’s not interested in him. Just show me the monsters. Show me the Asian lady who pops out of nowhere and then turns out to be, like, this mistress of the evil spiders, and then he kinda turns into this weird demon spider and kills that annoying comedian guy. Like, yeah, those parts I can appreciate on their own. And if I guess what I’m saying is I the plot is dumb. Like just get the plot out of there.   What you said from the very beginning was whoever was behind this initially was just get a bunch of teenagers in a house and kill them off with a bunch of different monsters. I’m down with that part. It’s the rest of it that just ruins the whole thing. 

Todd:  Yeah, I know what you mean. I mean there’s that one scene where they all get to where they’re like 4 of them left. I think this is before the comedian gets into the evil spider lair. He’s like the only one who’s off. The older guy and his girlfriend or whatever, and then it’s, Duke or whatever and his girlfriend, It’s another one of those moments where they’ve all just escaped something terrible, so they all Todd to talk about it. And they’re all real calm about it. And then Duke, for no reason, starts a fight with this other guy, and we get this Yeah. 

Craig:  For no reason. 

Todd:  We get this really lame, long, drawn out fight scene where they’re punching each and it’s like every punch, like, sends somebody, like, careening across the room and against the banister and onto the wall. And then they’re, like, in another room, and they’re fighting, and the girls just walk in. Oh, doody doody do. You guys should really stop. And, Yeah. 

Craig:  We should really stop this. Yeah. And then, 

Todd:  like, the door slams behind him. But in this room, for no really good reason, there’s a big statue of, like, the grim reaper. And Yeah. Which looks totally out of place in the room because it there’s just, like, a table and some chairs, and that’s it. And the magician chants something else, and the grim reaper’s light eyes light up. And this is a okay. This is one of the more low rent aspects of the special effects where it’s clearly just a guy in a costume with glowing eyes. Right.   He’s coming after them, and he’s swinging his act. They end up on the roof. They’ve run out the window onto the roof, and they’re going down this roof that goes along the side of the second floor of the house, and they’re it’s just lined with windows. There are, like, 6 or 7 windows along the edge of this roof. And as this green river climbs out of the window and starts menacingly going towards them, they’re trying every window along the roof to try to get back. 

Craig:  Yeah. I also loved that part because a major part of the premise of the movie is that they haven’t been able to get out of the house. Yeah. And now all of a sudden now all of a sudden, they can just crawl out on the roof. Yeah. 

Todd:  But the way they dispatch him is fantastic. 1 one guy just runs up to him and grabs him. You know, they’re wrestling with the, with the scythe or whatever in his hand, and he just throws this guy off the the Grim Reaper off the roof. He and he explodes upon impact with the ground. Like, not just not a little explosion, like a car exploded. Exploded. Yeah. And and they go back in. 

Craig:  Yeah. And then they go back in. Yeah. Oh, gosh. You know, and there’s all kinds of these little moments that are kinda like there’s one monster that’s kinda like octopussy and, like, it can, like, but it’s also, like, an electric octopus. Oh, yeah. You can, like, electrocute people. 

Todd:  And it’s got, like, an exposed heart that beats. They’re, like, they’re throwing the kitchen sink in here with all with all these monsters and special effects. 

Craig:  And I’m I’m I’m cool with that. That’s that’s fun. And, like, I there’s the the the random Asian I already mentioned her, but I she’s worth another mention. The random Asian lady that just shows up. And, like, of course, they just do that shot where it’s like the light is just lighting her eyes, and she’s like, hello, come here. I will help you. 

Todd:  And the Camille is like, okay, I guess I might as well. 

Craig:  Right. And then she goes through a huge transformation where she turns into this crazy spider beast. And, like, that’s kind of fun. It was awesome. 

Todd:  Oh, don’t come on. Give that give that effect some credit. That was a killer effect for its time. 

Craig:  I know. I do. I do. I mean, it’s a little bit Jason and the Argonauts or those movies that our dads watched, you know, like, where it’s like where it’s like slow kind of stop motion kind of and it’s not stop motion. It’s just that’s just kind of what it looked like. But ultimately pretty cool. And and meanwhile, we’re leaving out okay, so you have to know, you have to know that it it it’s clearly 2 movies. So you’ve got the kids being chased around by monsters.   There’s, there’s the first movie. There’s Twisted Souls. And then you’ve got all this other stuff that’s supposedly going on around. But the stuff that’s going on around is just this crypt keeper kind of narrating things going on and he’s got this bright or whatever. But then he’s also got, like, these other minions. Like, there’s we we mentioned from the beginning with Billy and this weird thing that’s chasing him around. I I guess he’s supposed to be a werecat. The cryptkeeper guy calls him Kitty, which I thought was freaking hilarious.   And, like, he’s he’s like Igor in Frankenstein. Like, he’s always just creeping around the corners. And so, like, they try to incorporate him into every scene even though he never interacts with anybody else ever until the very, very end. So you just see him sneaking around all the time. Like 

Todd:  gleefully closes and opens doors. 

Craig:  Right. Right. And not only that, but he’s everywhere. Like, every time you see a scene, he’s, like, hanging around opening and closing doors. But then he’s also always with the Craig keeper guy. Yeah. Like, how is he everywhere at one time? It doesn’t make sense. And then at some point, the crypt keeper guy, Todd, is like 

Clip:  Why must you resist? There’s no escape. Your future no longer belongs to you. It belongs to us. Dior, don’t touch me. Can’t you see I’ve always hated you? Is that anybody? Doctor Zabaza have your children? Children? What do you mean children? We have only one child. Oh, I know my darling. We have many children. My god.   What have you done? 

Craig:  And this kid, this poor, they they they bring in this poor child actor who they, like, threw this monk’s habit on, and, like, these these terrible, like, Bubba teeth and put gray makeup all over his face, and he’s supposed to be, like, the sun. And he doesn’t do anything really. Like, I don’t even understand what his purpose was, but he’s hilarious to see. 

Todd:  I kept expecting him just to hold out a bag and go trick or treat. 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh oh, man. 

Todd:  I think I had a costume like that one Halloween. 

Craig:  Yeah. As terrible as it was, like, I thought, oh, man. I wish I were that kid. I bet it would have been fun to hang out on that set. 

Todd:  But the bride runs away, and it makes no sense because at first, you think they’re on the well, they gotta be like on the second floor of this house and some room that nobody’s discovered yet, but it’s this huge, like, cavernous room. And 1 you know, you see one side of the room, and it looks kind of like a parlor, you know, like Dracula’s lair. And then when it shows the other side of the room, it almost looks like there’s a portal to the outside. It’s kind of misty and smoky, and there are vines and green things. And she runs out through that, like, sort of stony arch. And then she ends up running through what appears to be the basement at times, but then at other times is like a forest or a cave. And she encounters this witch that, jumps up behind her, but it’s not like a person dressed as a witch. It’s another one of these creature effects. 

Craig:  Were you talking about the giggle witch? Yeah. Yes. 

Todd:  Yes. I’m talking about the giggle witch. 

Craig:  The giggle, which was one of my favorite because she, she kind of looked like something that you would buy at Walmart to hang on your door at Halloween. 

Todd:  Yeah. But just somebody attached 

Clip:  a little 

Todd:  more articulation to it. Yeah. 

Craig:  It was that’s the kind of thing that my dad gets a big kick out of. Like like, you hang it on the door and, like, it has a motion sensor so when the kids come up to the door, it’s like And it starts vibrating. Oh, god. The Giggle Witch was one of my favorites. So then she runs outside. And again, like, they’re not supposed to be able to get out, so I don’t know how she got out. But Oh, 

Todd:  no. She hasn’t go outside yet. First, she says, I know what I have to do, and she gets an ice pick. And this ice pick is so bizarre because we’ve seen this ice pick. Like, this ice pick originally came out of Billy’s bag. And I don’t know why this kid running away from home thought to pack his ice pick along with him. That was how one of the demons had grabbed one of those. And then I guess she found it just up on a ledge somewhere, and she hides it.   And so she comes to, you know, old wizard man and starts to pretend like, okay, I love you now. And he leans her over, the coffin for a kiss, And then she stabs him in the forehead, and he falls forward. And then she runs out onto the roof, like you said earlier, that we that we saw them run out. It it’s like the same window too, so none of this makes any sense. And she climbs down the vines, of the trellis outside the outside the house. And then we get subjected to a good solid 10 minutes of her just rolling around on the ground being pawed at by zombies. 

Craig:  Wasn’t this the longest scene you’ve ever seen like? Like, they these zombies, like, they chase her for a while, and then they catch her, and then they rip her dress off. Like, she’s been wearing this wedding dress the whole time, and they rip it off. But and then she runs, and then they catch her, and then she runs, and then they catch her. And it seriously goes on for, like, 10 minutes. Like, it’s so long. I thought I knew. I was like, oh, it’s the eighties, so they’re gonna rip her clothes all the way off, and she’s gonna run around with her boobs out. But she didn’t even.   Like, there was one point where they were ripping her dress off that I thought maybe her boobs are coming out. I don’t even know. That just may have been I don’t wanna I don’t wanna say wishful thinking because I don’t really care that I you know, maybe wishful expectations wishful expectations for an eighties movie. Damn it. No. 

Todd:  Thwarted again. Like, this movie can’t get that right. It’s so incompetent. Don’t you know there’s supposed to be nudity? There’s no nudity in this film. 

Craig:  Okay. So by this point, we’re like an hour and 20 in, and I know there’s only like 5 minutes of the movie left. So I’m like, okay, what’s gonna happen? So she runs and she finds this random car and the zombies are just like lurking behind her, like not even pursuing her anymore. They’re just like, ah. And she gets in the car and I’m like, how is this lady who’s been dead for 

Todd:  70 days. 

Craig:  Who knows how many like, yeah. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  She drives, I guess. And there’s a hilarious shot where, like, I feel like it was really ambitious. Like, she had to jump down off this platform onto the car, and then she was supposed to, like, swing herself in through the window, but she totally misses it. Like, like she tries to swing herself in, but she, she, she loses her grip and, like, she falls out on the So like so like just her legs are in the car window. But somehow she crawls her way back into the window. And she’s just in this car. And then this rando guy shows up and is like, hey. What are you doing in my car? 

Todd:  The bigger question is, what is your car doing out here, and why are you hanging around? 

Craig:  Lady, what are you doing to my car? She’s like, help me. So he gets in, and they start to drive away at, like, 5 miles an hour. 

Todd:  That’s right. 

Craig:  Like they’re just taking a stroll through the woods. And they they stop and she’s like, oh, thank Todd. I never thought I’d get away. It’s so nice to meet a nice stranger. And he’s like, I’m not a stranger. Didn’t you know I’ve loved you forever? And, like, it cuts back to him and he’s the wear cat guy. 

Todd:  Which still makes no sense. 

Craig:  No. I have no idea who this guy is or where he’s supposed to be. 

Todd:  Is there supposed to be a love triangle going on between the magician, this girl, and the werecat guy? 

Craig:  Just have a deal at the end. I guess. And then and then okay. So then, like, it just cuts to, like, a lot of rumbling at the house and, like, that pulsating grave that we saw from the beginning bursts open, and the evil wizard necromancer pops out of it. I don’t understand. Was he supposed to be dead and in there the whole time? Like, I I I I have no idea what’s going on. He bursts out and is like, and then you get a, a cut of the kid in the Halloween costume with the big teeth giggling. And then it’s over.   Like it. Yeah. I had no idea what was going on because by my count, there were still, like, 3 of those people still alive in the house. 

Todd:  Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Like, we just forget about them. And and we’d never even cared about this woman and the this bride in the first place. So, you know but but that just begs the question. What was the original ending to Twisted Souls? What happens? 

Craig:  I I really am just kind of at a loss for what to say. I didn’t enjoy this movie. It was frankly kind of painful to watch. Now, there were parts of it like the effects that I enjoyed. And some of them were so bad, but I feel like in the right context, it could have been so bad it’s good. I wish that whoever took over would have just left it alone because I think then it could have been so bad it’s good. Putting in all the the evil magician and the bride and the were cat and the Halloween costume boy, it just detracted from the evil dead, ghoulies, millions of things they were trying to mash up. And even though some of those effects were so bad, like going all the way back to the beginning when Carol turned into the dead egg, there were sometimes when her makeup looked okay, and there were sometimes when she was clearly just in a latex mask, and like her mouth didn’t even move when she was talking, like It was so bad and I think that I would have appreciated that more if they hadn’t messed with it.   I would have liked to have seen, Let’s just get a bunch of assholes in a house and have them taken out by a random assortment of monsters. That part was fun. The rest of it just felt trite and stupid and, like, they were trying too hard, and I didn’t need that additional story. It didn’t add anything. It was boring, and, like, I walk away from it just thinking, why? I don’t care. I don’t care about this wizard. I don’t care about his bride. Like, it was just dumb. 

Todd:  Yeah. I feel the same way. You know, people online will say, oh, this is hilarious. It’s this madcap romp. You just go with it and whatever. I I had a very hard time going with it. It just I would I felt like it was painful as well. Apparently, the very first cut of this of Twisted Souls was 2 and a half hours long. 

Craig:  And Holy crap. 

Todd:  Yeah. And it and it would apparently move very slow. And the Michael Bell, this producer, got so excited that he showed it to a distributor, Golden Harvest, which is a major film company in Hong Kong. And the filmmakers were like, no. No. No. No. No.   No. No. No. No. Don’t do that. Don’t do that. And he did it. And, of course, the distributor said, well, we’re not interested in it, you know, because it’s too slow for our market.   And so this guy just turned around and was like, the movie sucks. Blah blah blah. It needs to be cut. It needs to be cut. You know? Whereas the these filmmakers are going, yeah. We know that. It’s a rough cut. That was the whole point.   You’re not supposed to show it to people. Now the original filmmakers had an almost 90 minute cut trimmed down. And when they were kicked off the project, they thought that whoever came in after them was just gonna add a little bit of extra animation. They they felt the movie was pretty much done, and it was this new crew that came in. They ended up cutting it down, and when they trimmed the fat from the film, they ended up had 45 minutes. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  That was what they had deemed, was usable that they had to add additional stuff to. Basically, kept all the creature effects and very little else. So clearly the movie’s been messed with, and unfortunately, no existing original print of of even this film is known to exist. So as far as getting, like, a nice cleaned up version, as far as getting, like, what the original twisted souls could have been, we’ll probably never see that, which is kind of a shame. But, yeah, I I would love to be kinder to this film. I really would. The best I can say to it is if you were to cut it down even more, say Todd, like, 20 minutes by cutting out everything in between all the monster effects and just string the monster effects back to back. I mean, this movie probably made an awesome trailer.   Right? The trailer for this movie probably 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Todd:  Like gangbusters. Right now, like you said, it feels like watching people go through a haunted house and and not particularly interested people. 

Craig:  Right. And and and, like, if you get off on bad movies, like, if if that’s your thing, like, if you like bad horror movies, then by all means. I mean, this it’s it’s I I, you know, I I don’t know what to say because I like those sometimes too. You know, we just we’ve watched a couple movie movies lately, where it’s been kinda so bad it’s good or at least it really had heart and we appreciated it and maybe that’s it. You know, I think that the the 2 guys who were trying to make Twisted Souls, I think they did have heart and I think that they had a love of horror and and they were going for something madcap. And I think that if we had just gotten their vision, that it wouldn’t have been a lot of fun. But unfortunately, it it got messed with, and and I think that was a big mistake. But like you said, and I do say it all the time, I’m like a broken record, You know, at a Halloween party, throw this on, you know, in a room where people are just gonna be hanging out and talking and drinking and not, you know, not there to watch the movie, but every once in a while, you’re gonna see some fun things, some fun practical effects and and and terrible acting.   And that’s funny Todd. You know? Like, that’s terrible acting is funny if you don’t have to sit down and watch it for an hour and a half. Yeah. There’s there’s, like, a limit. 

Todd:  You know? We’ve seen a lot of films, whether they have hard or not, that at least there’s a linear structure to it. At least they’re not terribly confusing. They may not make a lot of sense, but at least they’re going in a particular direction, or at least you can see the the attempt behind it. Whereas this movie just feels like a big jumbled mess, and that’s why it’s just not entertaining to sit and try to watch from beginning to end. 

Craig:  The acting is so bad and the writing is so bad in some parts of it that I I wish that I had pointed to more specific examples. At one point, the comedian Rich says 

Clip:  Either kill me or get me the hell out of here. 

Todd:  I gotta take a leak. 

Craig:  Like like, these are the kinds of lines you’re dealing with in this movie. And that’s freaking hilarious. That’s hilarious. Even and it’s delivered so bad. Like, this guy is just, like, pop eyed the whole oh, gosh. 

Todd:  How about when he’s walking around upstairs and he trips and falls and makes this huge deal over it? It’s an electrical cord, you idiot. Oh, my god. 

Clip:  I thought I bought the farm that time. Scared the hell out of me. Are you alright? Oh, yeah. Sure. I’m fine. I haven’t met the electrical cord yet. They can get the best I made. 

Craig:  Oh, gosh. Well, now see folks, there’s fun to be had with this movie, And that’s about the best I can say for it, really. I I’m not gonna be watching it again. I’m not gonna be watching it again, but, you know, by all means, give it a shot. See what you think. 

Todd:  Well, thanks again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. You can like us on Facebook. We have a page there. You can find, this episode as well as many other back episodes on iTunes, on Google Play, and on Stitcher. Please send us a note. Let us know what you think of Spookies, as well as any films you’d like us to review in the future. Until that time, I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Clint Howard, Ron Howard’s less attractive younger brother, began a long career in horror movies with this “high tech” fright flick from the 80’s. It’s a male version of Carrie with a lot of dumb elements, but it was fun to laugh at.

Episode 89, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys in a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  Today’s film is a film called Evilspeak from 1981. That’s one Todd, evil speak. It’s an intriguing guy on a top down view of a guy on a computer and he’s looking up and this guy looks like he’s kind of going Craig, his hair’s flying up in the air. And then there’s, what upon closer examination is some kind of goat headed demon and the tagline says Remember the little kid you used to pick on? Well, he’s a big boy now And, another thing that I noticed about the cover, which I noticed as the title sequence was coming up, And that is that even though evil speak is one word, they do make a distinction. The evil is written in this medieval looking font. And speak is written into what passed in the 19 eighties as a very futuristic kind of computery font. 

Craig:  So Right. 

Todd:  What we’re getting here is a mixture of, the past, the evil of satanism with the modern day computers, at least modern day for 1981. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  But you Right. But you chose this movie, and I think you chose it entirely for one reason. Is that right, Craig? 

Craig:  It’s it’s yeah. I I had never heard of it, and I don’t remember seeing the cover art anywhere before, but it it popped up on I I frankly, I really don’t remember. I was perusing one of the horror websites that I look at on a daily basis, and I don’t remember if it was one of those here’s some horror movies you’d never heard of you should you should watch or if if it was a a feature on this movie. I don’t remember. But I was intrigued by it because, it stars a very young Clint Howard. And I’m not a diehard Clint Howard fan or anything like that, but the guy just brings a smile to my face. He’s this goofy looking guy, you know, of course, brother to the insanely famous and rich Ron Howard, actor, director. And and poor, I I don’t wanna say poor Clint Howard.   He’s made a good career for himself. But, you know, he’s he’s not the best looking guy. He he’s he’s probably not the most talented actor you’ve ever met, but, whether it be due to his brother’s fame or or not, he’s kind of established this career as an actor, and he pops up in lots and lots and lots of horror movies, especially kind of low budget horror movies. And, for whatever reason, you know, he’s, he’s kind of a weird looking guy. But he has this charm about him that I don’t even know how to describe. You know, he he’s kind of an every guy, you know, like, you kinda can relate to this guy on some level. You know, he’s not the best looking. He’s kind of a dork, you know, whatever.   He stars in lots of these low budget movies. Like, I think he did, like, ice cream man, and I think that had a couple of sequels. And he’s done you know, he he pops up all over the place. But I had never seen him in something where he was so young, you know, like, he’s playing a teenager in this movie. And so I was just intrigued by that, and that’s why I texted you and said we should we should watch this. I’ve never heard of it, but it’s got a young Clint Howard in it, and, I wanna see Todd, 

Todd:  did you ever watch the Andy Griffith Show growing up? Because he was even younger than that. 

Craig:  Well, I did a little bit, but I don’t remember him from that at all. You know? I remember little Ronnie Howard. He was so cute, but, I don’t I don’t remember Clint, from that. My mom was a fan, so we we watched it sometimes, but I don’t remember him. 

Todd:  Clint would show up. He was just this little kid. He was even smaller than Ronnie, and he would just show up, and he never spoke. He was just always, like, chewing on a peanut butter sandwich. I think he’d always, like like, just sit there and offer it to somebody. Like, it’s just this, like, cute thing that he just kind of did all the time. Yeah. I was kind of a mute character on that one because apparently, at least his character was, he’s too young to speak, but boy is he generous with his peanut butter sandwiches.   Little Mayberry. You’re right. He’s not the nicest looking guy in the world. But it’s weird because actually in this movie, I thought, wow, he wasn’t that bad looking at this age. Like, he is a couple notches. Now tell me if you see the resemblance. Just a couple notches lower than Matt Damon, but kind of in the same spectrum of an of a younger Matt Damon. Like, when Matt Damon was, pimply and was in, like, a start in Goodwill Hunting, He’s got that look to him. 

Craig:  I can see it a little bit. I don’t know. You know, I think the reason that I like him and especially I like him in this movie and he’s not necessarily a likable character, but certainly a sympathetic character because, you know, I wasn’t a great looking kid either. You know? I was kinda the chubby, you know, not not great looking kid. You know? And so you and so so I relate to this guy. You know, it’s not like he’s some hideous beast, you know, that should be set in the corner. You’d be he just looks he he looks like your your average kinda guy. What’s funny is I have no idea how old he was in this movie, but he’s playing a teenager.   But he’s very clearly already balding, which a a a lot of people might think, oh, man. How how dare they cast this guy who’s already balding as a teenager? I teach high school. This happens. 

Todd:  You’re right, though. 

Craig:  Like, I I I have high school seniors who clearly are going to be bald within the next 10 years. I have no idea how old he was when he made this movie, but I bought him as a high school kid, and I, as I was watching the movie, I just kept thinking, This is not a great movie. It’s really not, it’s not a good movie, but it has a certain charm to it and and I I really think that when it comes down to it, that charm is Clint Howard. I I I don’t I don’t know. I I just feel like he makes, again, not a great movie, but there there’s something relatable about his character. And you feel for this kid. After I watched the movie, I read some reviews. One of them said, this is basically just a gender flipped version of Carrie.   And and I had thought about that as I was watching it. It is reminiscent. You know, it’s about this outcast who really is basically just kind of pushed to the limit and because of that kind of seeks their revenge. And and I see that. I also saw Shades of The Omen, I think primarily because of the score. I kind of feel like that’s the vibe that they were going for. And and it Todd doesn’t succeed as either of those movies succeeded. But, I don’t know.   I I have a feeling I don’t know. I I what did you think? 

Todd:  The movie tries very hard, and I almost feel about it a little bit like I feel about the monster squad in the sense that the monster squad was kind of like The Goonies, but just a little more low rent and trying hard to be The Goonies. I kind of felt like this movie too had a place there where it was trying really hard to be up there in a certain part of the mainstream at the time, again, like another Carrie. In fact, maybe even a more slightly more lighthearted carry in some ways, but, it just fell flat. It was just a little too low rent in certain ways, but I couldn’t tell you exactly where, and I think you’re right. It just has to do with the ensemble cast. And maybe the thing that saves it, again, as you said, is Clint Howard. He’s the one, honestly, he seems to be one of the more, believable characters in the film. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he’s he’s relatable. I mean, Clint Howard plays this guy, Stanley Cooper Smith, and he is in a military academy and we find out later that he’s been orphaned As   far as plot goes, that’s about it.   You know? Yeah. The the As far as plot goes, that’s about it. You know? The the movies the movie starts out with this weird it’s not a flashback, you know, because we’re coming right into it, but, it’s a scene clearly from the past. I couldn’t figure out when or where it was supposed to be. I I guess sometime in same 1500, 15 20 something like that and we see this guy Lorenzo Esteban who is played by Richard Mole who I love, Bull from Night Court. Yeah. We we we talked about him in house. He’s being vanquished from Spain.   Apparently he’s a priest, but he’s being excommunicated from the church, and then we see him, holding this black mass ceremony where he does, I don’t know, he burns some stuff and then it ends up with him decapitating this this topless woman. And and that’s the setup. And then we jump to Clint Howard getting bullied, blah blah blah, etcetera. 

Todd:  It’s so like Kerry at this point because Clint Howard just getting totally bullied on the soccer field. And then, like, the next scene is him in the showers, and he’s kinda being bullied in the showers Todd. Not to the extent that Carrie is, but, you know, they’re pretty relentless on it. And, actually, I thought this movie was really clunky, and it starts clunky this way too because it’s just so bald on its face trying to cram information down your throat. Yeah. They’re bullying him. Okay. Scene 2, they’re bullying him some more.   Scene 3, they’re bullying him, and then it’s time the coach is getting in on it. You know, it’s like Right. Oh, okay. Come on. We get the idea. He’s being bullied. And then they keep calling him welfare boy or something like that, and then the next scene is the head of the school who is a colonel, colonel Kinkade, who’s walking with this mother that he’s giving a tour of the school, which we later find out is the mother of one of these bullies named Bubba. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  But he just happens to be talking to her about how 

Craig:  There was a time when only the sons of the right families had divot our academy here. But now due to our financial condition, we’re obliged to take in welfare cases like Coopersmith. 

Todd:  Okay. So, like, this kid, Cooper Smith, as you go through the first basically, as you go through the whole movie, you would think that nobody at this military academy talks about or thinks about or makes any decision that doesn’t revolve around this kid. 

Craig:  Exactly. Like, they have an active interest in hating him and persecuting him. Like, why? Like, just leave this kid alone. I know. 

Todd:  And the thing is he’s not, like he’s he’s kinda okay. You know, it’s like he’s he deals with it. He he clearly doesn’t like it, but he doesn’t have that same charm that Carrie had. You know, Carrie, not only is she being bullied, but she’s got a really pathetic kind of personality, you know, because she’s been getting it home from her mom, and so she’s just a very weak character to begin with. And so when she gets bullied, you your heart just completely turns in her favor. She’s just so sympathetic because she’s so pathetic. Whereas this Right. You know, the other thing that keep going over and over again until, you know, we get it is that he’s an orphan.   And every time they say it, it’s almost like they’re giving you new information, like it’s that important. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Later on, we find out that, we hear that he’s an orphan. Then we find out, oh, no. His both of his parents died. And then a few scenes, you know, later, an hour later, we hear, yeah, both of his parents died in in a car accident. And every time they keep talking about it and giving you like a little new tidbit of information, I keep thinking, Okay, there’s gonna be something significant about his parents coming about. No. The movie is just that clunky that it feels like it’s gotta keep reminding you of the same stuff. And that was my problem with this movie is that almost up until 15 minutes before the end of the film, it’s the same stuff over and over and over again.   And nothing really moves. He doesn’t really progress 

Craig:  at all. 

Todd:  He doesn’t even get more and more angry until the very end. I don’t know. It’s just 

Craig:  yeah.   I I agree with you entirely. You know, if we’re gonna compare it to Carrie, which I think you kind of have Todd, it’s it’s so similar, but, you know, she’s very introverted and, and separates herself because of her upbringing. And, and this kid doesn’t, you know, it just seems like this kid is just trying as hard as he can to go about his everyday life and trying to fit in and, and, and and he’s just ostracized for really no good reason. Like, oh, okay. Like, he’s not the best soccer player, so let’s brutally bully him.   Everybody play sports here, Bubba. I guess that’s another game we’re gonna lose, coach? Come here, papa. You know the colonel’s policy as well as I do. Everybody plays 2 out of every 4 quarters. Now what the hell you expect me to do about that, Oliver, something happened to Cooper Smith, so he couldn’t play.   It’s not even fair. Like, it and and so you do feel bad for the kid. Eventually what ends up happening and and it is clunky. Oh gosh. Alright. I’m gonna go off on a tangent because I wanted to ask you about this. You are the technical movie making guy. I felt like whoever and maybe it was the director, maybe it was the screenwriting, I don’t know.   But I just felt like the editing was really bad. Like it just, it seemed like just a series of scenes that did not connect well. It just didn’t seem like a logical progression of plot. It was just like, here’s the scene that we filmed. Okay. Now let’s go to another scene that we filmed. Like, I don’t know. There wasn’t a very good through line.   I know that this was classified in Britain when it was, first released as one of the video nasties. And so they made a lot of cuts to it. And eventually, a, director’s cut came out, but the filmmakers have said that even that director’s cut really doesn’t have all of the footage that they shot. So I don’t know if some of it was lost in the editing or what, but it just seems disjointed. Like Todd doesn’t follow a good through line. Did you feel that 

Todd:  way? Yeah. I did. In in a way, like, even while I was watching it, for some reason, Grease kept coming to mind. And now Grease does have a through line. You know, it’s got the story of Sandy and Danny, right, as they’re, you know, going through and kind of their love thing. But it it just sort of like Grease, it feels like a series of vignettes. It’s like a lot, just self contained scenes that could be jumbled in any order up until the last 19 minutes and get the same effect. So there’s no real build.   You know, there it’s really not building towards anything. It seems to be. You know, as it goes on, you know, he he gets punishment detail. Right? There’s that chaplain. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd:  I hated all these characters, not not because they were they were just dumb dumb characters. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  And this chaplain was one of them. You just couldn’t get a beat on this guy. This is supposed to be his military academy, and so everybody, you know, is dressed in the military uniforms, but they don’t actually make sense if you know anything about the military, the the ranks and insignias, and, things were just slapped on these things. And what the one of the things that bother me Todd 2 of the things that bother me. First of all, everybody’s hair was way too long for this to be. Yeah. Academy. But second of all, the decorum completely gone.   And I grew up in a military family. Alright? And and and, you know, my dad was an officer and stuff. We grew up on bases. I’m pretty familiar with this stuff. I never went to a military academy, but it’s a meritocracy. The military is nothing if not a meritocracy, And that’s a fundamental flaw this of the way that they’re portraying this academy in this film is that people are just too petty. The top brass or the the instructors in this in this school make all these weird threats. It’s it’s like Greece.   You know, they all have all these weird different characters. The all of the instructors and whatever have all these different personality quirks. At one time, he gets called in, to the colonel Kinkade’s office who chews him out for no really good discernible reason except that he still thinks he’s a Todd, and then says, alright, assume the position, and he whacks him like corporal punishment. Corporal punishment for what? Right. And, again, being a meritocracy, the way that the military works, they don’t give a crap about your background. They don’t care where you came from. This is just not something that’s discussed or talked about much. It’s just, will you do the work? Can you do the work? And it’s they’re constantly grilling in you to get better and get better and get better.   And so the reasons that they’re harping on this kid seems to be more of the fact they’ve just decided that they resent having him in the school more so than he can’t accomplish anything. You really accept for soccer you don’t see any evidence that he can’t accomplish anything. Right? In fact, he seems to be a pretty good student. He goes to class, and he’s in this ridiculous class with the this guy, the teacher has a, a German accent. Yeah. You are 

Craig:  late, Cooper Smith. I hope you have an unimpeachable excuse. Your silence pleases me, Cooper Smith. I would consider any excuse unacceptable short of your being detained by visitors from outer space. I take it we can rule out extraterrestrial interference.   He’s like Steve Carell with the German accent. Uh-huh. 

Todd:  Which which I guess is just their way of trying to make him seem more sinister or something. But, again, it’s a little off from him being at a military academy. And this class, apparently, they’re going to study the strategies of Julius Caesar, but they’re also in the just as kind of a side thing, going to learn Latin as well. And and also don’t forget your model projects that are due. And I’m like, model projects? Like like, are they mapping out Todd, like, a battlefield? Like, no. It’s like they’ve gotta make, like, giant boats or, like, catapults and stuff. What is this stupid class? But, you know, that’s really handy, obviously, that he learns the Latin, and, of course, it comes in at just the right moment. That’s the other thing, is this is one of those cases where, as unfortunately, in poorly written movies like this, things that the characters need just happen to be available to them right when they need them, you know, and that’s one of those situations.   Right. 

Craig:  And and, like, he’s he’s so he’s on this punishment duty. We have no idea what he’s being punished for. You know, you can’t imagine that this kid would have done anything malicious to be punished for. And you’re right, you know, it makes, of course, you never necessarily expect a movie like this to represent people fairly, but not only are the military officers just jerks, but they’re also stupid. Like, they’re they’re mean they’re mean to this kid for no reason, but then they’re also really nice to the bully kids who are very clearly making fun of them behind their backs. Yeah. And and like I don’t come from any kind of military background, but I can never imagine that anything like that would happen. It just doesn’t make any kind of logical sense.   No. But anyway, so he’s on this punishment duty and his duty apparently is to clean out the basement of this church on the campus. And he he goes down there and he hasn’t been cleaning for more than 30 seconds before he finds a secret room, like, behind this wall. And he he tears down this wall brick by brick, and he goes in there, and it’s like this   Massive. I don’t even   know how to describe it. Yeah. It’s this huge, like, kind of, like, dark chapel or whatever. And my my favorite my favorite, I say that a lot. 

Todd:  I have a lot of 

Craig:  favorites, I guess. One of my favorite things about this movie is that he goes down there and he finds all this obviously, like, ancient stuff. And he’s just, like, perusing through it. Like, oh, this is so neat. 

Todd:  Like, and 

Craig:  this keeps the candles. Doctor. That’s that’s it. That’s it. Like these black wax candles. Not only does he light a candle, like, okay. Alright. It’s dark.   And there you light a candle so maybe you can see this, you know, pagan book that you’re looking at or whatever. But he lights, like, 100 of candles. And not only that, but like at some, like he lights the 100 of candles the first time he’s in there to look at all these weird things. And there’s weird things. There’s like pagan books and there’s like weird like demon iconography and there’s like a fetus in a jar and I don’t even know what that was all about. And, but then later, like he, he continues going down there. And not only is there, are there like these hundreds of candles lit, but there’s like fire pits. Like, 

Todd:  it just gets 

Craig:  like like, it’s a whole deal. Like, it’s a whole dungeon scene. It’s like the end of, one of the last Nightmare on Elm Street that we talked about when they go down into Freddy’s hell. It’s like this dungeon.   New Nightmare.   You know, that’s what it’s like. It yeah. And he just hangs out in there. 

Todd:  Well and it’s like it’s it’s like it’s a different set every time. Like, it’s like as they filmed the movie, they kept adding to it, and they filmed it in sequence, so it’s, like, more and more elaborate. I didn’t even realize how big the room was until as the movie goes on. You’re like, jeez. The ceilings in here are huge. It just seems to get bigger and bigger, more elaborate. And, of course, maybe it’s just because the candles all stay lit the whole time. But, you know, and then how does he how does he close it off, but he just, like, pushes a whiteboard in front of it? 

Craig:  Yeah.   Nobody will find this, especially not apparently there’s there’s a guy named Sarge who, like, lives down there. Like, I don’t even, like, I I don’t even know. I don’t even know. Woah. But when it comes down to it, he continues to get bullied. The the bullies, like, break his catapult thing that he’s been working on so hard, and that’s really mean. And he takes this one book out of there that’s got, like, a pentagram on it. And he’s working on his catapult design on a computer.   And this is hilarious because apparently the the the title, Evil Speak, is a play on the term computer speak, which I don’t even remember that being a term. Mhmm. But I I guess that was back in the early days of computers. That was, like, the name for computer language, I guess. But, he he’s working on this computer, and he starts typing in things, in Latin into this computer. It’s like a Commodore 64 or something. Yeah. He types stuff from the book in, and it translates it for him.   And that’s another thing. There there’s a lot of reading. You do have to read it.   Not a fan.   If you’re not a fan of reading. That’s right. Or if you can’t read, you you might not wanna watch this movie because you won’t know what’s going on. But he he types this stuff in, and the first thing that translates is, I, Esteban, have come to know that the entire world is domain of evil ruled over by an evil spirit. And since the power that dominates the world is evil, then it follows that Satan must be Todd, and then it’s dated 15/20, and then it’s like, I, Esteban, have signed the book of death, and I have conducted a black mass, and and now I will return. Return. And I guess what we’re supposed to understand is that this kid feels so powerless that he’s willing to grasp on to anything that could potentially give him power because just immediately, he’s like, yes, Satan. 

Todd:  Let’s explore this a little further. Yeah. 

Craig:  Oh, gosh. So he decides he’s gonna get his power from Satan and he takes the computer down. Oh, gosh. And it’s just so funny to watch. You know, we grew up in the eighties. I remember seeing all these weird cords and the, you know, these huge clunky computers and, like, he he takes it and he sets it up down in his satanist den and and it just it just moves on from there. 

Todd:  It becomes a part of the altar, and this is a part that I’d never quite understood about the movie, like the role of the computer. At first, it’s like it’s translating the Latin for him. But then, at one point, before he takes it downstairs, he has to leave because somebody else has gotta use the computer after him. You know, this is back when you had to, like, schedule time with the one computer that the whole school had. And so he turns off the monitor, and then after about 3 seconds, it comes back on. And then later on, when he’s downstairs and he’s typing, stuff into it, it’s not like it’s translating. It’s like he’s able to ask it questions. So has he loaded like the Satan satanic bible onto it? Has he run the the the ritual program? It’s hard to say, but anyway, the computer spits out what’s basically the recipe for summoning summoning Satan.   And it Right. List all these herbs and all these things that he needs, which are all very conveniently available in that room, which he goes 

Craig:  He just shops. He just shops in the dungeon. Yeah. 

Todd:  It’s it’s so weird because, like, the whole fact that they were learning Latin in the class, I thought then would be significant. Oh, it’s gonna help them translate this book. No. No. The computer does it. And anyway, none of this needs to said in Latin. I guess as long as you translate it into English, the spell still works. And then he starts this spell without, like, 2 of the ingredients, I guess, and still thinks it’s going to work.   And at the end, it’s like the computer can detect. So, like, again, these movies from the eighties, they may they made it look like these home computers could do almost anything. But it’s like the computer can detect the spell that’s being cast in front of its monitor because as he goes through it, it says data entry failed. You’re missing 2 things. You’re missing blood and, consecrated host. And so he kinda looks at the screens, like, oh, damn, and just leaves, and it hangs there for a good hour. I mean, this is probably, what, 30, 45, 30 minutes into the movie. And every time he comes down there, he’s facing that same screen, or somebody else comes down and discovers that they look and they see the screen Todd of this unfinished ritual.   And we just get a lot more scenes of him being bullied. And it’s like he was so keen on doing this ritual. He just gives up when he’s gotta get the 2 of the easiest things, which is go upstairs and get some consecrated Todd from the chapel and, like Right. Cut his own finger and throw a drop of blood in there. Like 

Craig:  Cut your finger. 

Todd:  Yeah. Like, why? And so it just pisses out. So it’s like the movie. 

Craig:  You’re you’re you’re absolutely right. 

Todd:  It’s building to this moment. Right? You okay. This is gonna be the beginning of act 2. This is where the spell gets cast, like, he summons Satan. Satan possesses him or somebody and, like, kind of let loose this this this craziness and then they’ve got all deal with an act 2. And then by act 3 is like the the the climax where they’ve got a they’ve got Todd put the genie back in the bottle and something’s gonna happen. But no, it’s just a lot more of watching them being bullied for a while. 

Craig:  I totally agree with you. It’s like it sets that up that the computer becomes kind of this computer Ouija board for him that he can kinda communicate with. And then it there it’s like the whole second act is just totally random. Like, there’s that whole thing that you talked about with him getting spanked by the colonel or whoever it is. And then there’s there’s a whole deal with a sexy secretary who, like, gets a Todd of his book and, like, wants to, like, pry the 

Todd:  Pentagram off? 

Craig:  Pentagram off the book, like, for jewelry or something. Jewel in it. 

Todd:  Oh, that was a joke. 

Craig:  Yeah. I guess. But but she can’t, I guess. And then there’s a whole thing with pigs, and like I thought this was where it was like getting into Omen territory. Like Yeah. I I really didn’t even understand what what the deal was. There’s this whole thing with pigs. Like I guess, Clint Howard, I don’t know what his name was.   Cooper   Smith. Stanley Cooper Smith. Like, I I I guess he has to, like, slop the hogs or something. Right.   This is military can’t be. Yeah. I didn’t get that.   And, like, we we get this whole scene where the sexy secretary is trying to pry off this jewel and she can’t, but, like, that irritates the hogs and, like, so the hogs attack Cooper Smith and it leads to nothing until the hogs come back later in the movie for no reason. Oh, God. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And and and you’re right. And then lots more bullying, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We can’t forget the part where later the sexy secretary gets naked and showers and then gets eaten by the hogs. 

Todd:  Because, of course, you can’t have a movie like this without somebody stepping into a shower. 

Craig:  Well and I’m in why wouldn’t hogs eat the sexy secretary? I mean, it’s that makes perfect sense. So, you know, whatever. And then there’s a beauty contest. 

Todd:  Where are these women coming from on the on the this military academy? I do not understand. What Todd they do? 

Craig:  I don’t know, but it’s the miss the miss heavy artillery contest. 

Todd:  Oh, gosh. 

Craig:  And it comes out of nowhere. It doesn’t make any sense. And like, you know, Cooper Smith is just taking time out of his diabolical Satan plan Todd, like, attend the Miss Heavy Rillary contest. Yeah. And and and then, like, he he goes up to one of the girls who lost afterwards.   Miss Kelly? Yeah. You want something? I just wanted to to Todd say, well, to Todd tell you, I’m sorry. I I thought you were the best. Out there, I I thought you should’ve won. Yeah. No. No. Really.   I thought you should’ve won. You really mean that, don’t you? I do. I do.   And then the the the bullies bully him again.   Getting high Cooper Dick? Hey. Leave him alone, Bubba. Sure. I’ll leave him alone. But I’m benching you for smoking dope.   You you can’t do that. The the coaches, everybody gets to play.   That’s what sports are for   to make us well rounded. 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. 

Craig:  Oh, man. Oh. So funny. And they they oh, god. And, like, it’s just, you know, whatever, movies or whatever. There’s only so much you can do, but, like, these bullies, this whole group of bullies who just clearly just, you know, sulk around together all the time, you know, they they pull his pants off to humiliate him but leave him in like his giant green military boxers, I guess. Like, I don’t care. I don’t wanna see Clint Howard’s Wang, but, like, seriously, if these bullies were really gonna be humiliating this kid, they wouldn’t just be pulling off his pants and leaving him in these giant boxers.   Yeah. But it Todd doesn’t matter. I mean and then I I guess leading into the 3rd act, somewhere along the line, Cooper Smith got a dog. 

Todd:  He’s got this whole really weird scene with the chef. Right? He misses dinner, and so he goes to the mess hall by himself and has to scrape just the last bits of scrambled egg or whatever from the tray. And the chef takes pity on him and says, hey, come back here and I’ll I’ll make you a steak. And so he makes a mistake and he sits down and they just have again, another little conversation that’s supposed to be, oh, I’m an orphan. 

Craig:  You sure your mother and father didn’t send you here just to get you out of the way? My mom and dad were killed in an automobile accident. If she had told me soon, I would’ve give you an extra lump of mashed potatoes. That’s better. Finish? You wanna see something?   I I guess I just I guess I just have kind of a twisted mind because I saw that going somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Todd, the chef gives him a puppy so he’s got this puppy which he keeps under, like, a cock in this dungeon. And and and I love that about movies Todd, like, where you can just, like, oh, I have a puppy. I’m just gonna put it in this box for the next 3 days. Like, that’s not how that works. 

Todd:  Well, it’s the thing that he he gives this nice little soliloquy about dogs and puppies. He’s like, 

Craig:  doesn’t look like this little one’s getting too much to eat. Can I have him? What are you gonna do with him? Keep him. Try to give him a chance. Why don’t you let nature take its course? Yeah. Maybe you’re right. Maybe this puppy’s better off not making it. It’s a tough world out there. You gotta be able to kick and scratch if you wanna survive.   I found that out right after my parents died. 

Todd:  No. You don’t know that. You haven’t been scrapping and getting by. You’ve been bullied this whole time. You haven’t come out on top. You haven’t learned anything. But, yeah, take the dog. Take the dog so so that you can show it a better life by sticking it in a box in this secret room in the dungeon in the dark, and then tell it if you need anything, just yell. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yell for who? 

Todd:  The man who lives in the dungeon? 

Craig:  Eventually, they have this confrontation with the bullies. The bully after the beauty pageant, the, bullies are like, well, we’re gonna hurt your dog. And he’s like, don’t you dare hurt my dog. I’ll do something bad. But instead of going and, like, getting his dog or protecting his dog, he just goes to bed. And and the bullies somehow magically find his evil dungeon, and they go down there, and they’re messing around and looking around and stuff. And, the main bully, Bubba, gets a Todd of the puppy and, and and kills it. And meanwhile, while all this has been happening, the computer screen has been flashing blood and consecrated host.   I don’t even know if the bullies were supposed to have seen that. I I have no idea. But, they they kill the puppy and then they leave and then eventually, Cooper Smith comes down and finds his dead puppy. And that’s what leads into what I felt like could have been a really good payoff with this last scene. And then I just felt like they totally squandered it. Like   Yeah.   So so the computer says, oh, no. We need human blood. So when Cooper Smith finds the puppy, he’s he’s enraged, and then the reverend, like, comes down there and finds Cooper Smith, and Cooper Smith kills him. So he’s got the human blood, and he’s also got con he’s also gotten the consecrated host. 

Todd:  He picks him up from the stairway, lifts him into the air, and, like, impales him on what must be like a hanging spiky chandelier or something. 

Craig:  I guess I had no idea 

Todd:  what that was. Human strength or something. 

Craig:  And and then you’ve got basically what boils down to carry at the prom scene. I mean, that’s that’s pretty much exactly what it is except it’s in a church. It’s in a church and, Cooper Smith, you know, poor, sweet Clint Howard, who was obviously balding at the time, like, they spike his comb over up so that it’s standing so it’s standing about 10 inches above his head, and he floats around. And, like, there’s all kinds of contrived things where, like, his face turns into the face of the evil priest for a while. And, you know, it it’s all insignificant and kinda stupid, but, he he chases these guys around the chapel and he kills he beheads a bunch of them with the same sword that Esteban used in the beginning and and the pigs come back and, like, the the the pigs are chasing people through the church and eating them. And I’m like, why why did they have these enormous, like, jungle doors at the military academy? These are not like these are not like hogs that you would have, you know, to make bacon. You know? Pigs are scary and dangerous, period. Domestic pigs are dangerous.   But these are like jungle boars. Like, why do they have them there? 

Todd:  Hakuna matata. 

Craig:  Yeah. One of the So the   pigs eat a bunch of people and he decapitates a bunch of people and there’s this whole big, like, slaughter. And then this this has to be my biggest complaint with the movie. It’s like they just quit or like they filmed an ending that we didn’t get to see because you see this big slaughter and you see poor Stanley Cooper Smith who you’ve, you know, sympathized with because he’s been bullied for this whole time and you feel bad for this kid and then he kills a bunch of people and then like it just kind of fades away and this script comes up on the screen that says, Suffering from shock and catatonic withdrawal attributed to having witnessed the fiery death of his dear friends and teachers, Stanley Cooper Smith, sole survivor of the tragic accident at West Andover Academy Chapel, was admitted to Sunnydale Asylum. He remains there still. 

Todd:  Oh, it was all based on a true story. 

Craig:  And then you you okay. So then you see the computer again and it flashes up. I, Stanley Cooper Smith will return. Oh, man. I just felt totally cheated.   Yeah.   I wanted to know what happened, you know, like   Yeah.   Frankly, somehow, as in Carrie, Stanley probably should have building up, building up, building up, building up, building up, building up, building up, climax, climax, the end. Like you don’t get any resolution, you don’t get that really, that’s my biggest complaint about the movie. Among many complaints, that is my biggest complaint was that I felt cheated at the end. That felt like a cop out ending. 

Todd:  It was a terrible ending. I felt the same way about that ending as I did at the end of Unbreakable. And also, while we’re kinda ragging on it because it’s easy to do, another thing I didn’t quite get was the role of the computer in all this. Because at times, it’s a translator. At times, it’s helping along with the with the ritual. But then at other times, the computer itself seems possessed and able to project some energy. We get all these graphics on there. Maybe the the scene I’m thinking about the most is right smack dab in the middle of the movie, where Sarge is drunk in the basement.   He’s been bitching about his crowbar being missing this whole time. And, and he he stumbles in to Stanley, finds the the secret hideout, finds his crowbar there, says he’s been lying, finds his dog, and then picks up the dog. It’s like, I’m gonna teach you a lesson. He’s gonna snap the dog’s neck, you know, over this crowbar. Yeah. And at this point, the computer kinda fires up, and this pentagram goes on there and all these crazy graphics, and then like the pentagram duplicates itself vertically, so it I guess it’s supposed to kind of look like a vertebrae, and starts turning and twisting, and it keeps cutting between this graphic on the screen, and suddenly this guy, Sarge, in life, his head starts turning around and basically until it’s complete, you know, 180 and snaps his neck and he falls forward. And there’s another time too, I don’t remember where, but where the computer does the same thing. So it’s almost like by now the computer is already possessed by this Esteban character, and it’s able to manifest these things.   But I guess it’s not enough because the ritual is not complete and nothing big happens till the end. But then again, at the end, like you said, the computer’s still there. I guess it survived the the the burning or fire. It’s another one. And it now apparently is possessed by you know, it’s supposed to be, like, implying that there’s there’s a cyclical nature to this that now he’s the new world. Right. But it’s so clunky, and it doesn’t make any sense. 

Craig:  Yeah. I just I I really it made me think a lot of, another movie that we just talked about, Trick or Treat, where the the rock star could kind of possess all of the stereos. But you’re right, you know, like, it seemed that sometimes that the computer, had power and could manipulate things on its own. I mean, it’s really clunky. You know, I I I feel bad because a lot of times we do these movies and we can tell you kind of interesting trivia. And and there’s not a whole lot of interesting trivia that that that I could find about this. There is a making of documentary of this movie on YouTube. This movie is on YouTube, by the way, if you wanna watch it for free.   But, there is a making of and I wish that I would’ve had the opportunity to watch it before we saw this because I I do find it, interesting. And the thing is, when all is said and done, I didn’t hate the movie. I I I thought that it had potential. It just seemed like it was poorly executed. I think that the idea is not a bad idea, and I think that it’s something that could be easily modified, not necessarily a remake, but, you know, the, a similar idea. And and again, I I’m sure it’s been done. There’s been all kind of technology horror. But, as I said in the beginning, there’s some sort of charm about it, and I really think that that charm is Clint Howard.   And it’s not that he is an Oscar worthy actor. He’s not. But there’s just something relatable about him, and he’s just kinda got these big puppy dog eyes, that, for whatever reason, you know, I I I like this guy. I feel for this guy. And even in this movie, that’s not a great movie. I enjoyed watching him in it. I wouldn’t watch it again, but I might even recommend it to a fellow horror lover. It’s weird.   It’s a movie that I had never heard of, that I’ve never seen referenced anywhere except for that one article that I read about it. But, I don’t know. I’m I’m kinda glad we stumbled across it. 

Todd:  Yeah. I’ll go one better on you. I think that even you could almost take this movie scene for scene and rework the writing and the characterization, and probably make a much better movie out of the same exactly the same material. If you just had the build in there and you made it again so that that ritual was something that kept getting added to and adding to and building and maybe made made it come a little sooner, you could have more of a, again, like a male version of Carrie in here because I felt like like I said at the very beginning, I felt like this movie was so close to that or at least there was there were elements about it that made it want to be that it just didn’t succeed because the writing was so terrible. Yeah. Just a bunch of scenes that didn’t have any build to them and as great as Clint’s character was as much as you felt for him, you didn’t really see a breaking down of this guy, you know. The dog I think was supposed to be it, but and as tragic as that is, it too felt tacked on. Like we hadn’t seen that much of the dog, you know, by then.   That by the point he’s cradling it, we get, like, a slow dolly shot, on him, hands covered in blood, cradling this dead dog. That was supposed to be really emotional. But, again, as tragic as it is to see a dog killed for no good reason, you still didn’t even have any build before that of his relationship him. You know, that one little change Yeah. Would have made that way more powerful and him. You know, that one little change 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Would have made that way more powerful and would have made it, yep, that’s definitely the point where he’s snapping. You know, his one friend of the world is gone. And then you could just kinda take it out of the chapel a little more. Like, it seems like the chapel is the only place on this campus. It’s like where everybody goes all the time. He’s in the chapel. People are looking for him. They find him in the chapel.   He’s in the in the cellar, and everybody knows to go down to the cellar and find him. His friend, his friend Kowalski, who again you thought was gonna be again the guy that kinda comes to his aid throughout it, shows up like 3 times, and he’s gone. You’re right. Maybe what you said earlier about a lot of scenes being cut, maybe there was a lot cut here that we haven’t seen that would that would have fixed some of this now that I think about it because it’s so disjointed. It’s so disjointed. 

Craig:  The only interesting bit of trivia that I was able to find was that and and I don’t know. It’s not like the set pieces were that cool. It could have been filmed on any studio set, but, it was actually filmed in a condemned church. While they were filming it, of course, they were doing some renovations for the filming, and a priest at that church came in and believed that they were renovating the church, and I guess he fell to his knees and, like, like Craig out a thank you to Todd and they just didn’t even have the heart to tell him that it was just like set pieces and and they eventually ended up burning the church to the ground. So that’s the only interesting piece of trivia that I have about the movie. 

Todd:  There was an interesting scene we didn’t mention. And, again, this this is, another point where I felt like everybody was always going back to the chapel. Another thing that it felt like they were building up to that again went nowhere was this big game that he was supposed to be able to play in that they keep referencing and keep threatening to cut him from, which doesn’t seem to matter in the end. But it comes to that point where he’s supposed to show up for the game. It’s it’s it’s after, you know, the rally the night before where the dog died. He’s not there. And so they’re all like, They’re all in the shower room. They’re getting all ready to go, and the coach comes in and says, where is he? And they said, well, I guess he hasn’t shown up.   Wink, wink, wink. Coach is like, well, okay. I guess we’ll have to punish him for that. Alright, boys. I wanna see you over at the chapel. So they all go to the chapel, and the priest, the the chaplain, gives the what I think is the finest piece of writing in this film. In case you’re listening to this on a Sunday and you want a nice, pep talk slash sermon, I just wanna leave you with this gem. 

Craig:  Before you go out to play the game of your lives, little soldiers, I wanna talk to you about another game. The game of life.   I know a lot of   you soccer jocks think it’s okay to go out there and try to pull one over on the referee when he’s not watching, But I’m here to tell you that nobody, I mean Todd, pulls anything over on the head referee in the big game, and that’s what really is important. Each time you go to the trough of sin with gluttony and lust like pigs, you’re being coached by Satan. And if you care to check the standings, he’s got a losing record. When he adds up the ledger between good and evil, You, you better be on the winning side of this, we’ll just hell. It’s okay.   Oh, man. Oh, 

Todd:  man. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. You can find us on Google Play, iTunes, and Stitcher, anywhere you can find your favorite podcast. You’ll also find us on Facebook, where you can like us there, share us with a friend, and let us know what you think of this movie as well as leave a request for another movie in the future. Until that time, I’m Todd, and I’m Greg with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Not to be confused with the far better film “Trick R Treat,” this heavy metal horror film may not be the best VHS tape on the shelf, but it sings with 80s charm – a throwback to a time when horror didn’t take itself so seriously. And in addition to a decent soundtrack, there are also a couple cool cameos of a young Gene Simmons and Ozzy Osborne.

Episode 88, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  Today’s film was another request by a loyal listener, Nick. Nick, thank you for 1986’s Trick or Treat, the most ineptly titled movie. Well, maybe not the most ineptly titled 

Craig:  movie, but it’s pretty darn close. 

Todd:  This movie has so little to do with Halloween. In fact, Halloween’s, like, in there, but it’s almost shoehorned in. Yeah. It has nothing to do with Halloween, this movie, or drinking or treating, really, any any variation thereof. What this movie is is a heavy metal horror film, which is actually a fascinating, subgenre to me even though I haven’t seen too many of them. They always hold such promise because heavy metal and horror, they just they go so well together, and I love both of them so much. And then also, in order to see a heavy metal horror movie, you basically have to jump back to the eighties, which is, again, another era that I absolutely love. So the idea of diving into this 1986 heavy metal horror film was pretty exciting for me.   I have to say it started out pretty good too, but, was a little boring. Maybe I was just a little let down by the end. I don’t know. How how did you feel about it, Craig? 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. That’s funny. I I really felt the same way. Like, it it was it was pretty Todd, and it it had some promise and then I felt like it kinda just fell apart in the 3rd act. Like, the 3rd act was really just kind of goofy and stupid. I don’t know. Overall yeah. I mean, here we are jumping to our overall conclusions right here at the beginning, but, you know, it’s it’s it wasn’t bad.   I I I I remember seeing this movie when I was a kid. You did? Yeah. I saw it. I remember seeing it on the the video shelves, and maybe part of the reason I liked it was because the the main kid and this this guy, Mark Price, who plays Eddie in the movie, was on Family Ties. Oh, yeah. Skippy. He was yeah. He was he was Skippy from Family Ties, and and and I loved that.   Oh, gosh. I loved that show. You know, that was one of the shows that my family watched. Like, we would sit down and watch that show together, and and I remember that guy. And and in that moo or in that show, excuse me, he was, you know, kind of this nerdy, nice guy. And that that carries over a little bit into this movie, but I think that may have been why I was initially interested in it. And and, you know, I I knew going in that I had seen it before, but I didn’t remember anything about it. I think that another 15 years from now, I’ll feel the same way.   You know, I I saw it. I don’t remember anything about it, but, you know, that’s fine. I don’t know. You know, it’s it’s an interesting movie. You know, we’ve done Trick or Treat as opposed to this one, Trick or Treat. Trick or treat, the anthology film. 

Todd:  I was gonna say, heaven’s sakes, people don’t confuse the 2. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. Trick or Treat is, one of my favorite Halloween anthology movies, and and this one doesn’t live up to that standard, in my opinion. But I didn’t think it was bad. It was a good effort, and it was an interest it’s an interesting concept. Just you’re right. I think in in the 3rd act, it kind of falls apart. 

Todd:  Yeah. And it starts off with great promise. And, actually, I was really into it for the first, I don’t know, probably half an hour, if not more. Again, you got some heavy metal music playing in the background. It’s got this very eighties feel. The camera’s sweeping through a kid’s bedroom, which could be any kid’s bedroom, at this time. And, he’s clearly into heavy metal, and he’s got like anthrax posters and Iron Maiden albums. And, you know, it’s we’re in the record era 

Craig:  right here. Right? 

Todd:  Yeah. It it it’s cool. And and I mean, I I actually kinda related to that a little bit. And and it pans down to this guy who’s, there’s a little bit of voice over as he is writing, and you realize that he is penning a little bit of a fan letter to one of his idols. And his idol is this big, heavy metal singer named Sammy Kerr. 

Clip:  It’s me again. Ragman. Well, the song remains the same. Total conflict. Them against us. I can’t believe they cancelled your halloween concert. It’s like you say, rock’s chosen warriors will rule the apocalypse. Airheads and brain deads are everywhere.   Who needs them? 

Todd:  And actually, this confused me because the copy that Craig and I saw, or at least the copy that I saw, the title of the movie was listed as Ragman. Was it on your version? 

Craig:  I don’t know if it was listed as Ragman, but it Ragman popped up like a like a title. Yeah. Like a title card. I noticed that too. So yeah. Yeah. 

Todd:  The movie must have originally been called Ragman. I actually didn’t see evidence of that anywhere else, but Ragman came up as the title card. So I really feel like trick or treat was tacked on at the end to try to sell it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because like we said 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Very little 

Todd:  to do with Halloween. It’s not a Halloween movie. But, you know, this kid is so totally relatable from the very beginning because he’s a bit of an outcast, as you can tell. Maybe one of those kids, especially at this time period, who was teased a lot at school. Well, we get a whole litany of of these instances where he’s teased. It it’s almost like a montage of every eighties joke you can pull on somebody, snapping his towel in the locker room, you know, getting the books knocked out of his hand and things like that. But he’s writing to this musician, and and he’s actually he’s kind of in this mindset where he’s writing to him and he’s saying Todd understands me like you do. Like, not in a creepy way, but just in a way that people this age tend to identify and idolize famous figures. 

Craig:  Yep. 

Todd:  Sure. And so I don’t know. I could just I could just kind of instantly, I really got a beat on this character, and I didn’t think he was so cardboard cut out. I just thought that the fact that it’s focusing on his, interest in the music, and his obsession with music as a teenager was just very realistic. And I really like that about this movie. And the movie, for, you know, for all of its faults, it really does keep that theme going, and I like that. You know? So he’s writing to his musician, and it turns out that this musician actually was an alumnus of this high school that he went to. So even though he didn’t know him, apparently, this guy’s a little older, he’s got kind of a personal a reason for a personal connection with him.   And and that was kind of an interesting an interesting thing too. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I did. I liked that about it, you know, because we I I don’t know. I guess I can’t speak for everybody, but I feel like it’s kind of a universal thing where when you’re young, you know, adolescent, high school, early college, you really identify, you know, with artists who are expressing things that that you wanna express. And for him, it’s like rebelling against the man, rebelling against the main stream, and he really, tags onto that. And and I get that too. It was certainly not heavy metal for me. You know? For me, it was more like Todd Amos, you know, indigo girls kind of stuff.   But, I I I I get that, you know, that that feeling of kinship, with artists, especially at that young age. And you talked about he does get bullied. And there is a mon I mean, it’s it’s literally a montage of him getting bullied by these jocks. And it’s funny because Todd, these people would probably be prosecuted. Oh, yeah. Like like like the the world was, and it’s so weird because we lived through it, you know? Yeah. We were there when this stuff was really happening. And and fortunately, you know, I I never suffered it.   But, you know, I saw it. You know, this this kid, you know, it’s it’s just kind of typical bullying, you know, like, he’s kind of the heavy metal fan, and he’s getting bullied by these jocks or whatever. But there’s one scene where he’s getting bullied, in the locker room, and he’s in a towel, and and they push him out into the gymnasium where girls are are playing volleyball. And and they push him out in there, and he’s totally nude, and girls are taking pictures of him and stuff. And I’m like, oh my gosh. This is this is so ’80s. Like, see, like, seriously Todd. Like, that would be Yeah.   A crime. Like, like, people would get in big trouble for this. But you youngins who listen to our podcast, we live that, folks. You know, like, it was a it was a different world. And and that that type of bullying, you know, was just kinda like, oh, boys will be boys. 

Todd:  Yeah. We were expected to shake it off and walk back home through the snow. You know? 

Craig:  Yeah. Exactly. And and not that that’s a good thing or it I I you know, I’m not saying, oh, you you know, we were way tougher back in those days. No. You know, that was scarring and damaging back then Todd. We just didn’t pay as much attention, I guess. But, yeah, it it makes him a a really relatable character, and and so from the beginning, you’re on his side, you know? Even though I didn’t really relate to him with his whole music fascination with this particular genre or whatever, he’s still a relatable character because you feel for him. He’s he’s just this nice, normal kid who’s trying to make his way through high school and adolescence, and he’s got a crush on a girl.   You know, there’s Leslie, this girl that he’s got a crush on, and he wants to impress her. And she’s there when he’s humiliated, but later on, she approaches him and she gives him the Polaroid that was taken of him when he was nude. And it’s not like today where it’s the Internet Todd it’s there forever. You know? Like, she’s like, here’s your humiliation. You know? Sorry. Give it 

Todd:  back to you. 

Craig:  But yeah. Right. Right. But, yeah, I I like that too. 

Todd:  And, you know, I wasn’t this kid by any stretch. I I think probably all of us feel like we were bullied at some point unless we were the bullies. You know, almost everybody, whether you really were bullied a lot or whether you were bullied a little, either, like you said, you saw some of this happening around you or it happened to you once or twice. I was definitely, you know, I was I was bullied a little more in middle school than I was in high school considerably. But the thing that I kind of related to was in, I think it was 4th or 5th grade, a kid who was this kid, alright, who was this kid fully in, like, 4th or 5th Craig, turned to me just one day, and he was always pretty nice to me. He turned to me one day, and he hands me this tape, but he slipped it kind of, like, under the desk as he was handing it to me, kind of looking left and right in the middle class, like he was, you know, giving me some, like, drugs or something. And and he hands me this tape, and and he says, here, I really think you’ll like this. And I looked at it, and it was Alice Cooper.   Right? And it was, Alice Cooper’s Mhmm. Album, Raise Your Fist and Yell. Of course, he you know, it was a tape, and it wasn’t the legit tape. It was a tape he copied. So it had, you know Sure. Sprawled on it, Alice Cooper. And I took it home and I listened to it, and I listened to it secretly in my bedroom because I was pretty sure I mean, my parents never really came out and expressed an opinion one way or the other, but I just knew because I knew Alice Cooper. We all knew of him at this time. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  This would not be something that they would want me listening to. And I just so I I I listened to that thing every night for quite a while after it gave it to me, and I really dug it. And it started a lifelong fanship of mine, actually, for Alice Cooper. And the funny thing is is, like, I have no idea why this kid thought I would like this. Like, I I would have given no indication. I barely knew him, but, I don’t know. He kinda gave me a gift that day, and it just shows what you were saying about how we do. Like music can be really powerful, especially to us at this age, and somehow it can touch us.   And it it really can be an escape. It just serves so many different functions. And for this kid, this guy, he looks up to him. This music is all his life. And so when he’s watching television and there’s a news report about this guy on TV. He’s watching it casually while he’s eating cornflakes or something in the morning, and you’re seeing he’s essentially like an Alice Cooper character. This is the bad boy rocker. Yeah.   He’s got a snake around his neck, which he did. Then he, like, bites the head off the snake as, like, dumping the blood all over him, which never ever happened in Iraq concert, but people like to think it did, and there were always stories going around 

Craig:  about it. 

Todd:  You know, it it really took me back. And, and then at the end, this woman, mentions that 

Clip:  Locally, he was the center of a raging controversy just last week when the town council denied him permission to appear at Lakeridge High’s Halloween party festival next Saturday. A graduate of Lakeridge High, it was Curtis to return to his alma mater, a move that was extremely popular with the students. The town council, however, blocked the attempt, citing obscenity and violence in Curt’s music. Again, rock star Sammy Kerr, victim of a hotel fire, dead at age 38. 

Todd:  And this kid just, wow. He’s like completely devastated. I mean, he’s so devastated. He goes to his room Yeah. And he starts tearing it up. And again, man, this is just I mean, it’s so honest. 

Craig:  You know? I really felt   for him. You are absolutely. And I remember that about adolescence and and, you know, your teen years where you’re so connected to these people that you almost feel like they’re a part of your life. As an adult, I remember hearing about Michael Jackson dying 

Todd:  Me too. 

Craig:  On the radio. Yeah. And I I remember hearing about, when Prince died and, you know, there are tons of others, you know? Even as an adult, it has an impact on you. You feel like these, you know, they’re part of your lives. You don’t know them. I saw Prince. Like, I’ll just go ahead and brag. I I I did see Prince in concert, but I I never saw, Michael Jackson or or any of these people.   And but you lose them and it impacts you. And mourning is not necessarily the right Todd, but this is the person that he felt a personal connection Todd, the one person he felt a personal connection Todd. You know, he’s writing him letters and it seems like he’s been writing him letters for a long time and signing off Ragman. Like, it seems like I’m sure it’s, you know, entirely one-sided, but he felt like this guy was Kindred. Yeah. It it it really messes him up. And when he sees that that TV, news report, and I I’ve gotta say, like, when they’re doing the news report and they have this woman on the news show, who’s like this conservative lady, talking about why he couldn’t be there and why they blocked him and whatnot. And her name was missus Sylvia Cavell.   But I saw her and I recognized her, I’m like, Who is that? And I looked her up on IMDB, her name’s Alice Nunn, and she was Large Marge. Really? I couldn’t believe that I didn’t recognize her immediately. Like, how do you miss Large Marge from Pee wee’s Big Adventure? I was 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. 

Craig:  It excited me. Sorry. Fanboy a little bit. 

Todd:  Well, there are other people in this. I mean, there’s Gene Simmons is in this briefly. 

Craig:  Yeah. He 

Todd:  plays the radio DJ who and, you know, honestly, like, I knew Gene Simmons was in this. I honestly had to look up which one he played because without his makeup, Gene Simmons is nothing to me. Right? But but he 

Craig:  was Right. And I I forgot, yeah, and I forgot that at one point, Gene Simmons was a good looking guy. Like, I think of it now as being kind of this bloated, loud mouth. That’s true. He looks 

Todd:  a lot better in the 

Craig:  Yeah. In this movie, he plays Nuke, the radio DJ who I guess is a friend of Eddie’s, the the main kid, and and they kind of share this little morning moment together. But Nuke reveals that somehow he’s gotten his hands on this, studio print of Sammy Kerr’s last album that had that what hasn’t been released yet or wasn’t released before his death, and he gives it to Eddie, and and that’s kinda the impetus for what goes on moving forward. 

Todd:  He said, I’m gonna play this on Halloween night at midnight on the station, but I already made a tape of it, so you can take the record. I know what she means to you. The girl gives him that Polaroid back and invites him 

Craig:  to work. Right. Yeah. Which I even in the moment, you know, like, it’s not a big deal, but I thought it was kinda funny, like, the the DJ gives him this, record, and he’s like, oh, you know, this is his unreleased album. And and then Eddie goes home and doesn’t listen to it right away. Like, that bothered me so much. Like, oh, I’ll listen to it later. You know? Like, here’s my hero.   I have this occasion. 

Todd:  Said no teenager ever about 

Craig:  Oh, god. I thought that was so funny. No. Yeah. If if it had been me and I had gotten, you know, like, this puts it away for a little while and goes to a pool party instead. 

Todd:  And he’s he’s odd man out at this pool party. I guess it’s being held at the high school pool or something after hours or so. I don’t know. Some indoor pool. And, he gets bullied again. Somebody throws a weight on his back and throws him into the pool, and then that same girl, what her name is Leslie Leslie. Rescues him and pulls him out. And he’s just pissed because he feels like Leslie just lured him there to be bullied even though she rescued him. 

Clip:  What? Let’s all with Eddie because that’s real fun, Puts assholes. I’m sorry. I’m gonna nail every one of those bastards. I don’t know how. I don’t know when. But I’m gonna nail them. 

Todd:  This relationship between the 2 of them, it doesn’t really develop all that. It’s not a prominent aspect of the movie. It just kind of they become partners sort of by the end of it as they’re thrown into the moment. And I kinda liked that about this movie too. You know, it was a little different from a lot of the other, eighties movies that we review where it’s like, girl looks at boy across the room, and instantly there’s a connection between them, or, you know, the opposite. Guy likes nerdy guy likes this, hot attractive girl, but she’s with the cool guy, and she’s basically unreachable. And then either she can maintain continues to be unreachable, and it turns out she’s not worth it anyway because the more homely looking girl that ends up looking beautiful once she takes her glasses off, is the one he ends 

Craig:  up with. 

Todd:  Or, she does something, you know, like lures the guy into some shady thing and like Teen Wolf, you know, and and it’s basically kind of a jerk to him. So, it was kinda neat in this case that she didn’t really get any of that. She seems to have a genuine interest in him, but it’s not really overblown in any particular direction, which, again, I I don’t know. I just by this point, I was really into this movie, and I was really kinda going with it, and I didn’t feel as cliche as I tend to feel about these kind of movies sometimes. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I I felt the the same way about the relationship between the guy and the girl. In a different movie and if it hadn’t been played the way that it was played, I I would have felt like it was a little stupid because you didn’t really get any reason for why this popular girl was interested in this, you know, fringe guy. But it’s like the movie doesn’t even really make any kind of big deal about it, so you just go with it. And, like, the way that she interacts with him, it just feels kinda natural. And he is, you know, he’s an average looking guy, but not a bad looking guy, and and you could see why a girl would be interested in him. So while in a different movie, it could have seemed very forced, it didn’t hear, and I I thought that was good. 

Todd:  Yeah. It was really good. So this is when he goes back and plays his record, which is was it like songs in the key of death or something like that? 

Craig:  I don’t remember. 

Todd:  And as he’s playing it, he’s kind of, slipping into, you know, kind of his state and imagining things, and he starts hearing those voices that, you realize pretty quickly are the sounds of, you know, voices being played backwards. As I guess maybe we do need to explain this, because our audience could be kinda young. This was another huge controversy at the time, was that groups would deliberately put backward messages into their records. 

Craig:  Yeah. Subliminal messaging. 

Todd:  Yeah. The idea would be that you could understand that you’re you know, even though you couldn’t understand it consciously, that your brain could somehow hear these these backward messages, pick them out, and decode them, and and they would have an effect on your subconscious brain. And, there was at least one group, I think it was Judas Priest, was actually taken to court over the the allegation that a backward message on one of their albums caused somebody to kill somebody or commit suicide or something. And, I mean, that’s all total BS right now, but these messages were put on albums. They did exist, and for us at the time, especially as kids, there was a certain mystique to them. And and so, again, inserting that mystique, this is the first I the first time I’ve really ever seen a horror movie play with this notion too. 

Craig:  Well, but in in real life, when when we were young, you know, we heard about these things and I don’t know. I had a record player when I was young, but I guess I wasn’t listening to heavy metal, so I did wasn’t into that. But, like, you could spin, you you know, with your your finger, you could spin the record backwards and and hear these backward messages. But even in our day, it wasn’t so, like, completely obvious. Like, it was it was actually subliminal. Like, in this movie, it’s like, you could, obviously, this is a backwards recording. Like, that’s what it sounds like. Yeah.   I feel like it sounds like It’s a 

Todd:  whole section. Yeah. 

Craig:  You know? Like, you’re right. Like, obviously, you’re supposed to play this backwards, which he does. And that was kinda what was funny to me. Like, you know, he’s having problems with these bullies or whatever, and so he plays the the record backwards. And I couldn’t even tell exactly what it said. Maybe you can help me out, but I feel like it said something like, let the big fish help himself or let the big fish hang himself or something like that. 

Clip:  Let the big fish himself. You’re the bait. The bait is you. 

Craig:  He gets from that very short message that he’s supposed to somehow allow these bullies to kind of do themselves in, and that’s what he does. There’s a big montage where he’s in the cafeteria, the main kid, and he flips the main bully’s tray up onto his shirt or whatever. And and the main bully, his name is Tim Haney, and he’s played by Doug Savant, who I would never have recognized at all, but he’s still a working actor. I I knew him. He was one of the main characters on Desperate Housewives, but I would have never recognized him because he’s so young in this. And there’s this whole montage. It’s and it’s hilarious. Like, a hilarious montage where they’re running through the high school.   The the bully’s chasing this kid, and, they run through the music room and through the library. And, like, it it’s really funny. But then the bully somehow, the main guy, Eddie, tricks them into thinking that he ran into the teacher’s lounge, and they grab a, fire extinguisher and shoot the fire extinguisher into the teacher’s lounge, think he he’s in there, but really it’s all the teachers in there. And and it’s funny, you know, on IMDB, the movie is categorized as thriller, horror, comedy. And and there are moments like this where it is kinda funny, and there are jokes throughout. If it was really attempting to be a horror comedy, I think it fell a little flat because it really wasn’t all that funny. Like, I could I could see the attempts where it was where it was trying to be funny, and it was. It was amusing, but really not necessarily all that funny.   But what I did find funny was that once he starts playing this record backwards, it gives him that initial message first, but then he keeps playing it backwards, and it keeps giving him new messages. Yeah. And not only does it give him new messages, but he’s able to talk to it, like, directly. Like, it it it’s basically, like, he’s working a Ouija board. 

Todd:  Yeah. Exactly. Really? Exactly. And I thought that was so cool. Like, I’ve never seen that concept before. Really creepy, I thought, actually. You know, because Yeah. I mean, you got this mystical record, which you can control, but what’s it capable of? You know, it’s sending you messages.   What’s going on here? Again, very much like a Ouija board. And, again, I could only I can only make out a little bits of what it was saying, which, again, I thought was a good choice. I’m telling you, I’m so into the movie at this point, and it sends him to the machine shop. I think it just tells him to go to the machine shop, basically, at the school. Yeah. And when he goes there, sure enough, like, the bullies are there. They have kind of a battle, kind of a fight, and it looks like Tim has him cornered, and something happens electrically. I don’t know if if Tim slipped or something like that or if it was supposed to be something mysterious and mystical, but he falls down onto one of the machines.   His his tie gets caught, in one of the spinning. I guess it’s like a lathe or something and yanks his head down onto this machine. At the same time, another the end of the lathe that starts coming towards him, the part with the spike on it, that kind of spears or holds the item in place, and it’s coming right towards his eye. And and everyone’s just watching this happen, including Eddie. And you’re kind of wondering if Eddie is just gonna let this happen, and we’re about to see the the first kill of the movie. But then Eddie, totally in character, reaches up next to the at the power switch and completely cuts the power off just in time, which is enough to scare these bullies, and they run out. So he’s won his his kind of his first victory over these folks at this point. And you know what I liked about this whole Ouija board album thing? And I guess maybe I’m just reading this this film like literature.   But, again, you know, he’s forming a companionship with this album, which is something that in a way we do. You know? An album becomes kind of a friend that we turn to sometimes when we’re feeling a certain way or we wanna get a certain Todd. And kind of a very literal way, this guy is, you know, forming a companionship with this album. Is this too much? 

Craig:  No. It’s just it’s just taking me back to my oh, Todd. I hope my mom’s not listening, but, like, it it takes me back to my college days when you would put on a particular album when you’re ready for sexy time. 

Todd:  That’s right. Well, you don’t still do that? I don’t want 

Craig:  that. Yeah. No. Like Yeah. Let let’s let’s just let’s move on. You brought it up, not me. I did like that and I liked the whole concept of him spinning it back, rolling the record player the wrong way and communicating in that way. It got a little cheesy for me then when he started recording the album on to cassette.   And then he could just listen to the cassette, and the cassette could talk to him. Like, I I understand why they did that because they needed it to be portable. You know, like, they they they needed him to be able to communicate with this ghost rocker wherever he might be or or needed, the the ghost rocker to be able to do stuff in other places. But the idea of him, oh, well, I’ll just record it on cassette, and then he can talk to me wherever I go. Like, a little cheesy. Well, it 

Todd:  loses the whole mystique of the record being played backwards because we never Right. A tape Todd doesn’t work that way. 

Craig:  He makes a copy of the cassette, and he gives it to the bully. And and it’s like a peace offering. Like, he tapes it to the bully’s locker and is like, oh, here’s a peace offering. Listen to my cassette or whatever, and and the bully just takes the cassette. That really leads to what I think is probably my favorite scene from the movie just because it is so eighties and so cheesy. You see the bully, Tim, whatever his name is, in the car with a girl who we’ve seen before who’s also been mean to our protagonist And, like, they’re making out and getting hot and heavy or whatever, and and then the bully’s like, I gotta pee or whatever. So he gets out and and goes, like, peeing outside the car. But the girl is bored in the car, so she puts on headphones with this little, you know, tape deck, and she starts listening to that tape.   And it’s oh my gosh. It’s so funny. Like, this ghostly mist comes out of the earphones. These old earphones that we used to wear in the eighties and and, like, starts, like, molesting. And it’s like this animated green smoke that, like, it’s kind of in the form of hands and, like, you can see the hands, like, like, caressing her boobies. And then she starts she starts to take she takes off she doesn’t start to. She takes off her shirt and, like, boobs. Finally, in the Sadie’s movie, here we get some boobs.   And, then, like, you see the ghostly mist, like, lady mist, like, going down into her panties, and she’s, like, taking off her romper. Yeah. But it’s like she’s hypnotized, and she doesn’t even know what’s going on. Oh my god. And it was so funny. Like, she’s totally getting off. Like, she is, like, getting off hardcore. And, she opens her eyes and there’s, like, this giant, weird demon.   And it’s so funny because what was hilarious to me was, like, the mist had been, like, messing around in her downstairs area. And then she opens her eyes, and it’s this giant demon, and it has this 

Todd:  The enormous 

Craig:  giant tongue. Oh, man. It’s so funny. Yeah. And then, you know, that’s it. You see you see, like, one second of this giant demon, and then she screams. And Tim, the bully, runs back, and the the car is all filled with smoke. And she I thought she was dead, but it turns out she’s not Todd, but like her ears are all melted off where the headphones were and stuff.   And, oh, Todd. It just it just talking about it now, it’s so much more fun to talk about it than it was to watch it, because because then because then we get Ozzy Osbourne. Ozzy Osbourne. 

Todd:  Yeah. Well, the movie keeps putting in these, like, it’s like they have to constantly remind you of the of the danger of heavy metal music and the controversies that were existing at the day. Like, hey, this is what the movie is about. Remember? So So we’re constantly seeing these TV clips at convenient times, and there’s a clip playing on TV, and it’s in somebody’s house or something. I don’t know. And it’s this woman speaking with Ozzy Osbourne, and Ozzy Osbourne is playing a preacher in this. 

Clip:  Those rockers really have a strange sense of humor, don’t they? I don’t even think it’s a sense of humor. I think they’re just out and out sick people. I mean, and that phone will make everyone else around them who who listened to their music as sick as they are. 

Todd:  It’s kinda funny to see Ozzy Osbourne, who is much more lucid in this Yeah. In this show. I mean, he was way more lucid back then than he is now. I think there were times in which the promotion for this movie really played up, Gene Simmons and Ozzy Osbourne having roles in it, but, really, they just have these tiny little cameos. You know, if you don’t know who they are, 

Craig:  you wouldn’t know they were there. It would just fly by, but, he he’s playing this preacher, and he’s talking about the dangers of heavy metal music, and he recites these lyrics. 

Clip:  I’ll give you an example. I have one of the lyrics that you will Alright. Tell me what you honestly think you’re thinking about. Go right ahead. Gonna drive my long steel missile down on your love channel. Deep, deep, you’ll beg for more. Raising hell and serpent’s score. Feel me.   Feel me. Now what does that mean to you? To me, it means nothing but a sexual act. 

Craig:  You and I and anybody our age knows that there was a time when heavy metal music in particular really was under scrutiny, and and they were saying that it caused people to do terrible things. And, I think it was I I can’t think of his name, but the lead singer of Twisted Sister, do you remember his name? 

Todd:  Dee Snider. 

Craig:  Yeah. Dee Snider, like, had to testify, I think, to, like, Congress. Yeah. Yeah. And and and and it was really funny to watch when we were growing up because here’s Dee Snider, Twisted Sister, who was, you know, this crazy rocker, but he got in front of congress, and he was so eloquent in in defending art and and music, and, like, I just remember as a kid thinking that was so cool. You know? Here’s this guy who wears makeup and has, you know, this perm hairstyle, and he’s wearing these hot pants and whatever in his videos. And then he gets in front of Congress, and he’s totally eloquent in defending art. And, like, that just made heavy metal and and and music in general just so much cooler to me.   You know? Like, these these aren’t ignorant people. These aren’t stupid people. They’re they’re they’re artists, and they’re they’re doing what they do. So, you know, I appreciated that about this movie too. 

Todd:  Yeah. You know, it’s that’s, Marilyn Manson, same thing, you know, right after when he kinda got blamed a little bit for the Columbine shootings, you know, much later. It’s same deal. He probably had the the smartest things to say about about everybody’s reaction, about the causes for that, you know, that anybody did. And and, you know, but you you kind of learn as you get older that the musicians were actually the dorks in high school. I mean, they were not. They were the non jocks. They were the guys who probably felt like outcasts, who had nothing better to do with their time, weren’t getting girls, so they were at home with their guitars practicing 247.   That’s how they got Todd. And then they turn into these, you know, larger than life idols, but they usually have backgrounds of complete dorkiness, and and they were the intellectuals perhaps who were had a lot of time for introspection because they were not getting the girls back in those days. Yeah. And and they even have a scene in here of this musician on on it, again, on the TV screen, Sammy Kerr testifying in front of congress. Right? Or, again, he’s also saying, you know, what the movie probably wants to say. Not much, but just, oh, this is free 

Craig:  speech. Right. You you Blah blah. Like, it’s not like this it’s not like this movie is pushing some good message or anything. But No. Right. But those of us who lived through it, you know, we get those references. But it’s it’s funny, you know, like so I guess after this girl gets hurt and and and the bully comes to the kid’s house and, like, calls him out, and you can tell that, you know, now this kid somehow, I guess, is kind of imbued with these supernatural powers, I guess.   Like, they they they don’t they don’t touch on this very much. Like, the bully comes over and, like, confronts Eddie, and, Eddie can, like, make I don’t know. Like, the the fire in the jack o’lanterns, like, one of the one of the one of the only Halloween references. Like, the fire in the jack o’-lanterns can, like, flare up when Eddie’s upset or whatever. But when Eddie finds out that this girl has been hurt, another scene that I thought was so funny was, like, he has this really sincere breakup with the cassette. I think 

Clip:  we should end it. I don’t wanna do anymore. No wins. No false metal. No. No. That’s it. It’s over now. 

Craig:  We we can’t do this anymore. I’m done. Wait. I’m sorry. But then, like all of the equipment starts to freak out and there’s all these really cool eighties electrical effects and, the the dead rocker, Sammy Kerr, actually appears in his bedroom and and it’s it’s basically, you know, it’s like any kind of possessed object kind of movie where like, oh, you did my bidding for a while, but now I’m in control, and now you have to do this. And and then it, you know, the the last part of the movie ends up with Eddie kind of trying to stop what he has already set into motion. 

Todd:  Yeah. He makes the rocker go away by killing his own stereo. 

Craig:  Right. He just batches 

Todd:  it with a with a with a bat. And this is where the movie started to get a little muddled for me because, alright, we kinda know what’s going on. We kinda know what we’re up against. But now it’s becoming a little unclear, like alright. So like you said earlier, it seemed to be hinting that Eddie was getting some powers. I was getting kind of a 976 evil vibe from it. Like, maybe he was, you know, gonna be formed and consumed by him or possessed by him or something, but that never really happens. This rocker again materializes, but then he he goes away.   You know, I thought, okay, we’re bringing this guy into the world. Now he’s manifested. It’s kind of like Freddy Krueger kind of thing. He’s gonna run around and start taking care of things. But that doesn’t really happen so much either. He still seems very much connected to this record or the stereo. And so when Eddie, likes, you know, smashes a stereo and stuff like that, it seems like the problem is solved. But he realizes, you know, that as much as he breaks his record, he’s got a tape out there still.   And so, like, he’s he calls up, Roger, his friend, who we’ve neglected to mention, but he’s his dorky his even dorkier friend, and tells Roger that he needs to go and get this tape. And Roger’s like, what do you you know, what’s this all about? And it was kinda ridiculous. You know, what’s the big deal? He’s like, just go and get this tape. And I’m like, what what why is he sending Roger? What’s going on? And so Roger breaks into Tim’s car in Tim’s driveway in the middle of the day with a coat hanger. 

Craig:  In, like, like, with, like, a ski mask. Yeah. Like, he’s not he’s he’s not literally wearing a ski mask, but it it’s like he dressed up like what a thug should look like to break into a car. Like, if you’re gonna break into a car, like Do it at night, at least. Dress up. Right? 

Todd:  When those things are actually affecting. 

Craig:  And again, it’s it’s yeah. It’s trying to go for the humor because he doesn’t even have to break in. Like, he’s trying to fidget with the lock with a coat hanger or something. And then he realizes that the car isn’t even locked. Oh, no. He just gets in there and takes the tape. 

Todd:  And the tape is still there. 

Craig:  The tape is 

Todd:  This this Yeah. Horrible tape that Tim knows is bad because it’s melted his girlfriend’s ears off. It’s just casually in the front seat in a Walkman. 

Craig:  It’s it’s silly. I don’t know. You know, as silly as it is, it it didn’t bother me. It wasn’t so stupid that I was rolling my eyes. It was just kinda like I get what they’re going for. They’re going for the comedy here. It’s not really all that funny, but I get it. You know, like, it’s it’s fine.   Roger gets the tape. And Roger, it’s so funny that you said we’ve neglected to mention him. It’s because he’s totally unimportant. Like, as as I was watching it and I was taking my notes, there were all of these scenes where Eddie was talking to his dorky friend, and I just was like, we don’t need to talk about this because it’s totally inconsequential. But, I looked on IMDB, and the guy who plays Roger, gosh, I don’t even know what his name is, this was his only acting credit. But then he went on this guy to be, like, a writer and producer for the X Files, and, like, he’s got an amazing resume, this this dorky friend who breaks into, the car. But he gets he gets the tape, and and Eddie told him to destroy it, but he doesn’t. And instead, he plays it.   And then the dead rocker appears to him and tells him, you’ve gotta play my tape at the Halloween dance or I’ll kill you. And so Roger, the dork, takes the tape to the Halloween dance and, eventually plays it, I guess. And you know, yeah, go ahead. 

Todd:  There’s this fantastic special effect. I thought it was really Todd, and for especially for the eighties, like, I I’m not even sure how they did it, but, when, the rocker appears to him and says this to him, I think the screen comes on behind him, the TV, and there’s that woman again speaking about the evils of rock, and he reaches his arm in to the screen and pulls her out by the neck. And as he pulls her out, she becomes this, like, charred little body. It looks like a charred baby or something that he drops on the floor. And then there’s, like, a scene there’s, like, another scene where, Eddie calls Roger and says, you destroyed the tape. Right? And Roger’s like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Sure. So then Eddie moves on to his next thing, and in the meantime, there’s this another shot of Roger at home vacuuming up the charred corpse. 

Craig:  It was hilarious. It was really funny. Hilarious. 

Todd:  That worked for me. That was 

Craig:  hilarious. Oh, god. Yeah. I thought that was so funny. And then so Leslie calls Eddie from the dance, I guess, to to see where he is, and he’s at home because he’s grounded or whatever. But he hears in the background this music playing. So he jumps in his car, and then the evil, rocker possesses his car. It’s it’s really kind of a cool concept.   I just didn’t feel like it was really executed that well. Like, it was the concept that because because the rocker, you know, is a musician, anything that could transmit music or radio waves, he’s able to kind of 

Todd:  Possess. Yeah. 

Craig:  And so he possesses Eddie’s car, and there’s this whole car. Yeah. It’s it’s not even a chase because nobody’s chasing him, but the car is driving around. It’s excuse me. It seems like, the it’s it’s intentionally trying to kill Eddie, and it goes, you know, through you know, it goes under things, so the whole top of the car gets sliced off. And, Eddie is only able to stop it right before it goes off the straw bridge and I got I don’t know. Like, the the whole last act of the movie was so madcap that I mean, I I get what they were trying to do, but the movie is, like, an hour and 45 minutes long. And at this point, there were still, like, 40 minutes left.   And I was, like, what are we gonna do for 40 minutes? Yeah. 

Clip:  And it it is it’s just a 

Craig:  lot of Eddie who eventually hooks up with Leslie at the dance. It’s just a lot of them kind of running around and this this ghost rocker kind of chase them around through electronics. And it’s not bad. I just feel like it it just went on for a really long time. 

Todd:  Yeah. That was the part of which I just, I got really bored, honestly. Like, I mean, bored is yeah. You know, the way you can be bored of a movie where there’s a lot of going on, you’re just kinda tired of it, and you’re you don’t really it’s just so much happening, and nothing’s really moving forward. You know? They’re just running from 

Craig:  one 

Todd:  place to the next. And this guy can materialize all these speakers. And at one point, you’re just like, get get out of the room and get away from all these speakers. You know? Right. And and it loses its consistency. Like, well, why is he able to materialize through these speakers and not these? I mean, they’re not playing the tape anymore. So, you know, it seemed to be connected to the tape and the music at first and the stereo that was playing it, but now it seems like almost any speaker he can come through now. And he materializes, and he’s able to do stuff, but then they’re able to, like, cut the power or something occasionally, which, like, which, like, sucks him back in temporarily.   So then there’s like power is kinda connected to it. It’s kind of the electrical transmission aspect of it, I suppose. It’s all real muddled. 

Craig:  And it’s hard to talk about in sequence because it doesn’t the sequence doesn’t really matter. Like, there there’s a cool scene where at the Halloween dance, they the principal or some teacher or something introduces the band that’s supposed to play, but then all of the equipment starts to get, like, electrified and, like, Sammy Kerr, the dead rocker, like, appears, like, out of the speaker or something. And, like, there there’s a whole musical. Like, he plays a whole song. Yeah. There’s a whole number, and he plays a whole song, and, like, everybody’s totally into it. And the guy that plays the rocker, his name is Tony Fields, and I don’t know much about I I totally recognize him, but I’m not even sure from what. Like, he was in A Chorus Line, the movie of A Chorus Line, and he was also, one of the zombies, in Thriller, the video.   So this guy’s a dancer. He was and you can tell he’s a dancer, like, when he’s performing. Like, he’s doing all these crazy spins. Like, he seems much more like a dancer that you know, the eighties rockers were all about flare and show, and and that that’s great. But, I mean, this guy’s, like, pure wedding and, like, throwing his hair back. And so that and then, like so he’s performing, you know, for this, Halloween dance, and then he starts vaporizing people with electrical bolts from his guitar. That’s right. And at 

Todd:  first, they don’t see the care. Like, everybody’s kinda shocked, but then they all move back up to the front of the stage so the next guy can get zapped. And the special effects were actually pretty good. I was not expecting a movie like this to have these kind of special effects. I have to hand it to him. 

Craig:  Not bad. 

Todd:  No. I’ve seen so much worse, so much worse than these movies. 

Craig:  Right. Yeah. I the but the whole I mean, it was very eighties. You know, the whole Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Electric currency and electric bolts and stuff. Like, very eighties.   You know? Not something that you would probably see today, but, for the time, certainly not bad. And then it just goes into what literally is, like, probably a 20, 30 minute chase scene of this rocker just kind of randomly chasing them throughout Todd. Eddie and Leslie? Is that her name? Yeah. And and, like, he chases them all over town and he vaporizes a cop and then he they end up back at Eddie’s house and, like, they get cornered in Eddie’s bathroom and, like, then there’s this whole thing where, like, somehow Sammy Kerr, the rocker’s hand gets in the toilet. And, like, it’s, like, agonizing pain for him. Like, I I I guess we were supposed to understand that water hurts him for some reason. Maybe because of electricity. 

Todd:  That was the only thing I was thinking. 

Craig:  Yeah. Like, he gets his hand in the toilet. He’s like, ah. Like like, he’s freaking out. And then, like, Leslie, like, flushes the toilet and he, like, almost, like, his hand gets sucked back in, and he’s still, like, freaking out. Oh, gosh. The the I I it was at that point where I I hate to use the term because it’s it’s so overused, but, like, jumping the shark. Like Yeah.   Seriously? Like, the toilet. The toilet. I love 

Todd:  the toilet physics in movies too where, like, like, toilets have these, like, this enormous suction power. You know? You get your hand in there. Somebody flushes it. You’re in danger of losing an arm. You know? 

Craig:  Oh, man. And and all this time, I’m thinking, okay, so so Eddie has destroyed the original record. He’s destroyed the tapes that they’ve used. But I remembered from the very beginning that Gene Simmons said, I’m gonna play his record at, midnight on Halloween. And finally Eddie remembers that. And, so he tries to call the radio station, but he can’t get a hold of the guy. And so then he and Leslie start running towards the radio station. But we’re hearing on the radio station, oh, Todd.   And we’ve missed so many things, like when Eddie first explains to Leslie what’s going on. 

Clip:  I wanna know the whole story. Alright. Okay. Go ahead. Look.   You’ve heard of raising spirits from the   dead by incantations. Right? That’s 

Craig:  That’s right. 

Clip:  And she 

Craig:  was like, yeah. I guess. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s a thing you do. And then when, they they finally, he he tries to get a hold of the radio and and he can’t, but then we hear the radio broadcast. 

Clip:  We have got a treat for you. A world premiere, the only Sammy Kerr album never released. So here we go. In the true spirit of Halloween, the eve of the dead, we’re gonna play this first cut backwards. 

Todd:  What? Why would you do that? 

Craig:  Like, oh, you’ve never you’ve never heard this before. It’s a brand new release, but we’re gonna play the first track backwards. 

Todd:  It’s so stupid. Plus, I mean, if you really wanna nitpick alright. So that means that somebody else has played this backwards before because he’s he’s we find out that the DJ is not even in the booth. He’s recorded his whole show for the night, and it’s playing on his reel to reel. So he had to play it backwards. But does that mean that when he taped it first before he handed the record to him, he taped the first track backwards? Because if you’ve got a tape 

Craig:  Yeah. You can’t play the tape backwards. 

Todd:  It doesn’t make sense logically. It doesn’t make sense technically. 

Craig:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  Yep. 

Craig:  And then right. And then Chase, Chase, Chase, they they end up at the radio station, and and Eddie tells Leslie, like, you stand out here, and I’m gonna go do something else. And if I’m not back in a 100 seconds, then run-in and destroy the tape or something and Eddie takes this little, like, I don’t know this eighties cassette player and throws it in the back of the cop car that they’ve stolen. And, Eddie, like, is driving the cop car, like, trying to taunt this tape recorder. And and he’s like, oh, I guess rock’s chosen warrior is nothing but a effing wimp poser, and that finally taunts Sammy, the rockers. Like, it taunts him out, and he comes out, and he’s in the back he’s in the back of the car. And then Eddie drives the car off of, I guess, the drawbridge that we saw before that he almost went into. But, like, he drives It’s at least a 1 or 2 story drop into this river.   Yeah. And I guess because it’s water, it kills the evil rocker. But Eddie’s okay. Like, he he surfaces like, oh, thank goodness. He’s fine. He just kinda yells out. Yeah. And then we see Leslie who has already broken the tape in the radio station, and she’s just, like, standing there waiting.   And Eddie shows up. I guess he walked back from the miles away that he’d driven. And they make out, and the end. 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. Yeah. I was I was ready for that by this point. It was just, like, get me to the final curtain. I know they’re gonna kiss. Just let them kiss, and let’s let’s be done. You know, I did you play it through all the way? I was I I don’t know why, but I just felt like there was gonna be a scene at the end of the credits even though it was not at all common at this time for there to be something like that. And sure enough, there was.   There was a really brief clip of, Ozzy Osbourne. 

Craig:  Osbourne. 

Todd:  The the movie, you know, like I said, it was, it really had me going there for a while. Really cool concept, really relatable character, very different, I thought. And again, I really haven’t seen anything quite like this where, you know, we’ve seen, like, possessed item things, but to to kind of make music itself and the album itself and the and the the guy behind the music, it kinda wraps it all up into 1 and throws it at this fanboy. You know, I I was really behind it until it just devolved into insanity at the end, and, it was pretty weak. I I was really disappointed. 

Craig:  Yeah. It got pretty stupid at the end, but if you are nostalgic for the eighties, watch this movie. I mean, sure. I mean, watch it. I mean, it’s it’s fun. It’s it’s totally a throwback, to the eighties and imperfect in every way, but but I didn’t not enjoy it. You know? Like, it it was 

Clip:  it was it was what it was. It was what it was. 

Craig:  It was a waste of time. I appreciate it. No. Not a waste of time. If you’re our age, you know, like, I feel like this is a movie for us. You know, I feel like if if some of our listeners, like, I’m thinking specifically of of Jordan, who has podcasted with us before? She would probably laugh her ass off at this movie and think it was so stupid And in many ways, it is. But if you grew up in the eighties, it’s definitely a throwback to that time, and and I appreciated that at least. 

Todd:  Oh, you know, and it’s kind of remarkable how this little unknown movie, you could play, you know, the 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon with it because of the people involved. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Even the director you know, the director went on to direct, like, Air Bud. 

Craig:  Mhmm. And some movies like that A Dolphin’s Tale. Yeah. Yeah. And, well, and Glenn Morgan, 

Todd:  you know who you’re talking about, who played Roger. He wrote Final Destination. Final Destination 3, a ton of X Files episodes, you know, even 21 Jump Street. I mean, pretty pretty impressive resume for these folks, you know. It’s funny. Of course, maybe it’s telling that the things that they end up doing were not the things they did for this movie. Yeah. Oh, and 

Craig:  I just totally messed up. I the the guy that you were talking about didn’t direct Adolphin’s Tale. That was the director of this movie, Charles Martin Smith. And and he was also an actor. He was in American Graffiti, and he was in the Untouchables, very recognizable, face. And he directed the first episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is, like, my favorite television show ever. So, yeah, lots of, connections, if if you’re interested in looking into those things. I understand why it’s not more esteemed, and I understand why people probably have never heard of it because it’s not a great movie.   It it’s really not, but I it’s it’s fun for what it is. 

Todd:  Honestly, for whatever reason, I don’t know if any of these heavy metal horror movies were ever very Todd. Or can you think of a single one of them that is notorious now that people look back on fondly? 

Craig:  No. 

Todd:  It just blows my mind. 

Craig:  You know, you and I watch these movies from the eighties all the time, and and we trash them when we review them. But I enjoy going back to them. You know, it’s it’s, it’s fun to go back to this type of movie and and you don’t see this type of stuff very much anymore. It’s all, superheroes and and sequels and prequels and everything so gritty and and and raw. And and you know, this is just, you know, it’s a fun throwback to, a different time when horror took itself a little less seriously, I think, and people were more willing to kind of, you know, try things outside of the box, and and I appreciate that. So I I appreciate this movie for that reason. It’s not a great movie, but it it was fun. It was fun to watch.   I don’t know if I’ll ever watch it again, probably not, but, I I enjoyed it just for the nostalgia. 

Todd:  Yeah. And it’s well made. It really is a well made movie. I mean, it’s shot well. Like I said, the special effects for their time are pretty good. The acting solid. Yeah. You really can’t fault it.   You know? It just it’s just Right. It’s just one of those movies. So yeah. No. For for I completely agree with you. Entertaining except for, like, the last 20 minutes. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Oh, well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. You can find us on iTunes right next to all of your favorite heavy metal tunes. Look for us also on Google Play and Stitcher, and find us on Facebook where you can like our page, share it with a friend, and also comment on what you thought of this episode as well as anything you would like us to review in the future. Thank you again, Nick, very much for this, this suggestion. 

Craig:  Until next time. I’m Todd and I’m Craig, 

Todd:  with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

What started as a fake trailer with Eli Roth’s name slapped on it became a full-fledged killer clown movie. Such is the way of the internet. Like many of the critics before us, we felt this movie was uneven enough to prevent us from giving it the full stamp of approval. However, it manages to be bloody entertaining at times, simply by going where few dare to tread.

Episode 87, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  Today’s film, comes to you straight from Netflix. If you like it, you can check it out now. It is the 2014 film, Clown. Clown, just in time for, I think we have a new version of It coming out soon, which to me is, like, the most essential clown evil clown movie. At least it scared the heck out of me when we were in middle school. That was you know, a lot of people don’t 

Craig:  Me too. 

Todd:  Yeah. Right? And a lot of people don’t realize, at least today, that it was a it was a TV movie. It was like a TV miniseries. Mhmm. Remember that? Yep. Yeah. I I remember being in, like, 8th grade, and I I mean, it’s clear as day coming into band class. And our teacher, like, the first thing out of her mouth, our our director was, Janine, do you see it last night? And we’re like, yeah.   And she’s like, that scared the heck out of me. Imagine this woman talking to 8th graders about how it scared the heck out of her. She must have, she must have had a fear of clowns. I, I have to say, as a guy who kind of liked, doing magic growing up, I was I was kind of into that scene, You know? I one of the first jobs, actually, that I got ever got paid for was doing magic shows for birthday parties and events and things. But the one thing that I steered clear of, even though I was into magic, I took up juggling a little bit, I’ve I’ve even I was twisting balloon animals last week for the kindergarten that I was principal for. Like I have I don’t except when I was a kid, one Halloween that I have photographic evidence of, I’ve never been fond of, dressing up as a clown. Like, getting that white makeup on, kinda doing the whole clown thing just was never my thing. And that being said, I’ve also never, like, had a fear of clowns.   It just, I think that’s a fairly recent thing. And maybe it I mean, don’t get me wrong. There are always people there are always people who have been afraid of clowns. I mean, there’s a there’s a word for it. And, it’s like a fear of spiders. You can have a fear of about anything. And if you’re a young enough kid and this guy in makeup is coming in, you know, kind of in your face and doing whatever, it’s understandable that it’d be kind of frightening. But for so many centuries, you know, clowns have just have just been fun and happy for the most part for most people.   Right. It seems like lately, just within the last few decades, it’s been, I have to say, kind of trendy to say that clowns are evil and that you hate clowns and that you’re afraid of clowns. 

Craig:  I do know what you mean, and I I think, it really was kind of the turning point there. And then I don’t know. I I’m sure that there had been clown stuff before that. I don’t remember when Killer Klowns from Outer Space came out, but even that, I mean, it was kinda scary, but it was goofball too. Yeah. But ever since it, I think, clowns have kinda gotten a bad rap. And, you know, re even recently in the last few years, there have been all these scary clown sightings, like, in real life. Like, I don’t know who these people are who are dressing up as clowns and going around scaring people, but, I guess, the real clowns in the clown industry are are kind of struggling.   They’re struggling because there’s not the demand for them there once was. I mean, when we were little kids, you know, clowns were you’d see them at the circuit, you know, there was Ronald McDonald, they were kind of a cute fun kid thing. But I think that’s, that’s kind of shifted. I, I imagine it’ll probably shift back at some time, but, I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. This movie is not gonna do it any favors, do the clowns any favors. 

Todd:  Absolutely not. This movie takes this movie takes a whole different take on the clown thing, and I have to say that’s the one thing that I really liked about this movie. I I’m pretty mixed on it, actually. I’ll just say it right up front. I did enjoy it at parts. I felt like at times it got a little draggy, and I felt like totally, it didn’t really know where it wanted to be. And that’s the biggest I mean, otherwise, it’s a pretty it’s a pretty gutsy movie. It was really willing to go a lot of places that a lot of movies aren’t willing to go and take some risks, and 

Craig:  for 

Todd:  that, I’ve gotta give it some Craig. But, at the end of the day, yeah, I I just I was just a little mixed, about this film. But I do have to say that the concept is kind of unique and cool. It’s not super unique in that we are getting a lot of these sort of retconned, origin stories. Right? We did sent and Right. A couple different Santa Claus movies where they try to kinda make it seem like, the, you know, happy go lucky clowns actually had a sinister origin. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Yeah. So that that was that was kind of interesting. I thought, that’s something I hadn’t seen before anyway. 

Craig:  Well, the history of the movie I think is just as interesting as the movie itself. I mean, it was it started out, I guess as the director made a fake trailer, for this movie Clown that had he hadn’t made, and he put it up on YouTube. In the fake trailer, it said, from the master of horror, Eli Roth. And, of course, Eli Roth didn’t have anything to do with it at all, but somehow, Ross got wind of it, and, he was impressed that they were ballsy enough to put his name on it. And, so he ended up, you know, being one of the producers on it. And then it got made. They shot it in 2012 and and completed it. And then it just it just sat around for a long time.   Like, I guess it got released, in in Europe and and I don’t know where else. So it then it finally got a release, a limited theatrical release in 2014 and and then went straight to, disc. So I don’t know why it was shelved for so long. I guess they just couldn’t find a distributor. And that’s kind of strange to me especially since like we said, you know, there’s kind of been this hype around, clowns and there was hype around this movie. I mean I remember reading about it when it was being made and I kept seeing posts online about how it was finally gonna be released, was finally gonna be released and, it just kept getting pushed back. And eventually though I guess it found its distributor and we get it. And it’s just kind of strange to me that it Todd so long to come out because it’s not bad.   I mean it’s a pretty well made movie. The director, Jon Watts, I didn’t recognize a lot of the stuff that he had done in the past, but he just directed the new Marvel movie, Spider Man Homecoming that’s not even out yet. The directing is pretty Todd. And and the acting I thought was was actually pretty good. It was a little bit subtle. It wasn’t over the top too much. I mean, with the you know, it’s a a killer clown movie, so of course, it’s over the top. But it has a quality to it.   You’re right. I agree with you entirely that I’m kind of mixed on it too because it does seem like it drags a little bit. It’s a scary movie, but I think that in hindsight thinking about it and after I read some about it, I it’s really kind of more interesting, as a personal journey, of the main character. And I’ll be interested to talk about that as we get there. But tell us tell 

Todd:  us what it’s about. Okay. So, basically, it’s about this, this family. We have May and Kent, husband and wife and husband, and, it opens up at a birthday party. And we get a lot of information thrown at us at the beginning, which is a nice little setup. Jack, their son, is having a birthday party, and it’s a clown themed birthday party, and he’s really excited about the clown that’s going to show up. In the meantime, May is talking with her friend, Denise. And, she and Denise are chatting, and May kinda lets it slip that she’s pregnant, but she hasn’t really told anybody else yet, and particularly she hasn’t told Kent yet.   She gets a a call from the company, the clown company that, she had hired Right. To send a clown there, and they say they can’t bring their clown. So she calls Kent, her husband, and says, they’re not gonna send a clown. Now Kent, we find out, is a realtor. He is, fixing up a house here that’s getting ready to be sold, and he’s in the midst of this when he gets this phone call. So he gets this call on his cell phone, and I think she calls from her land phone, which was just a little weird in this movie. 

Craig:  I didn’t even notice. 

Todd:  Yeah. There’s a lot of she’s got a landline and an answering machine. It’s so bizarre. Like, even even in 20 I mean, the movie did take a while to come out, but it was like we’re talking 2013 was when it was shot. Right. That was the first thing that I was like, what the heck? But anyway yeah. So, he’s like, oh, don’t worry. I’ll I’ll do I’ll I’ll figure figure something out.   And he’s kinda vague about it. He he hangs it up. And it just so happens, I guess, in this house that he’s in, the previous owner left some stuff. We later find out this was a guy who died in this house and so, you know, he just kinda kinda went up and left and so he goes hunting around I guess in the clothing, and lo and behold, lucky him, he finds this chest in the basement amongst the things, and it’s monogrammed, and he opens it up and it looks like an old chest, and what is inside but a clown suit? There’s a clown suit, Yeah. And so a wig and and a nose. 

Craig:  As luck as luck would have it. I mean, there there are so many there are so many, you know, big, like, loose ends in this movie, and and this is just one of the first ones. Like, first of all, what are the odds that there would be a clown suit in this house? And and beyond that, you know, why would you even think to look like Yeah. Oh, I’ll just look just in case there is a clown suit. Like Yeah. 

Todd:  Of course. You’d you’d get on your cell phone, and you’d call a a a costume shop nearby. That’s exactly what you would do. Right. 

Craig:  Oh, man. But whatever. He finds this clown suit, and, he puts it on, and he goes, and he saves the day. You know? He’s the clown at the kid’s party. 

Todd:  It is the crappiest clown suit too. Like, I’m sorry, but if I had come across that clown suit and that outfit, first of all, I wouldn’t have wanted to put it on. It looks musty and old and disgusting. The suit itself is bizarre. You get kind of close-up looks on it, and this kinda gets explained later on. But if you’d come across this thing, it looks like a clown suit made out of, like, patchwork snakeskin or something. And of course Scaly. Yeah.   It’s scaly. Right? And this is kinda dark little nose, I guess, that’s I don’t know. Whatever. And then this, again, why would you put this old, musty, nasty looking wig on your head? Who knows? I would have called the costume shop anyway at this point. Right. Yeah. But, yeah, you’re right. He puts it on.   He shows up at the party as Domo the clown. And, of course, I think his kid realizes it’s you know, he’s old enough to realize that it’s his dad, but he doesn’t care. You know? And they all have fun. And it’s it’s actually a really cute moment. I I really liked this bit. I thought this is a nice little family. This is a cool guy. It you know, at first, I wondered if we were getting the dad who’s too busy to pay attention and and work things out.   He’s always failing his son kinda trope. But, no, he follows through with them and puts on this musty clown suit and does his clown act and everything. And then I thought we were gonna get a little bit of clown sex. 

Craig:  And yeah. 

Clip:  Mhmm. There’s a zipper.   Slipped right on.   I have big news for you.   Oh, yeah? Mhmm. Didn’t know it was my birthday.   What? This might be just a little too weird.   Come on. Make a little make a little clown piggy. 

Todd:  I was like, woah. This movie’s 

Craig:  so funny. Yeah. It I think we would’ve gotten some clown sex, but they couldn’t figure out how to get the costume off, which kinda sets up the the movie. And so she goes off to bed, and he falls asleep, on the couch and and wakes up in the morning still in the clown suit, and he can’t get the wig and the nose off, and he can’t find the zipper for the clown suit, and so he’s stuck in this clown suit. And so he has to take his kid to school and go to work in this clown suit. 

Todd:  He can’t even whirly wash off the face paint either, which which begged the question, was he using old nasty grease paint from that from that that case? Ugh. How stupid. 

Clip:  Well 

Craig:  and and again, why don’t they why doesn’t he or his wife think it’s more strange that he can’t get this off? Like Yeah. I would be freaking out, you know? Like it’s he he says at some point point that he didn’t even use any adhesive or anything. So, yeah. So I would have been more freaked out. But, you know, like, the wife sends him off to take the kid to school. He takes the kid to school. He goes to his worksite, and his workers are like, why are you in a clown suit? And he just kinda throws his hands up and says, well, don’t you have kids? And, they just kinda laugh at him. He goes off to the bathroom, and he’s trying to get this suit off, and he can’t get it off.   And he’s, god, he’s so dumb. He takes he takes a box cutter and sticks it under the sleeve right at his wrist and is, like, trying with force to to rip it open. And and he completely slits his wrist, and blood starts squirting everywhere. And I’m thinking, my Todd. You better get to the hospital. But he just, like, put some toilet paper on it, like, no big deal. That made no sense. No.   And then on top of that, then he goes out and gets like a buzz saw and sticks the buzz saw down his collar and turns it on and it breaks the blade. I’m like, Todd. God. He’s so dumb. 

Todd:  He even says, like 

Clip:  You are 

Craig:  going to kill yourself. 

Todd:  This is a really bad idea. He he Todd it anyway. It’s I yeah. I had to roll my eyes at that whole section. I thought this guy should just be going to the hospital. I mean, wouldn’t that be what you would do? Just Yeah. Go to the freaking hospital. And I probably wrote that down three times while I was making this, notes for this movie, like, go to the hospital. 

Craig:  Yeah. But then he goes home, and he still can’t get anything off. And so his wife takes him into the bathroom, and she’s like a dental assistant or something. So she pulls out her dental equipment, and she takes like the forceps and grabs onto his nose and starts pulling and it hurts like he’s clearly in pain. This hurts. And she’s like, well, I’m just gonna do this. And she rips it off and like rips the tip of his nose off, and it falls on the floor and the dog eats it, which is gross, but you also know that can’t be good. You know, there’s something there’s something wrong with this suit.   Can’t be good that the dog eats it. And then like you said, it gets a little bit long. I feel like if we wanted to, I don’t know how detailed we wanna get into it, but if we wanted to, we could really just kinda gloss over the most of the plot because for the next hour, it’s just him slowly transforming. And you realize that this costume is transforming him in some way. He’s becoming this clown, and it’s not just any clown. It’s, an evil clown. The, the, the wig has become his actual hair. He, you know, the, his skin has actually turned the colors, of the makeup, and it just progresses kinda slowly from there. 

Todd:  Yeah. And, you know, this was I was looking at this, and I was thinking, okay. So this is kind of like The Fly. Right? I mean, we’re seeing this guy who is kind of tragic, I mean, through really no fault of his own. This is, I guess, you could call it a cursed item type movie. But in a lot of times with these cursed item type movies, the the person was doing something they shouldn’t. Right? At the very least, they robbed the mummy’s Todd, and they were warned about the curse, but they took the thing anyway, and so they’re paying the price. And in this case, it’s it’s more like The Fly.   It’s just this guy was trying to do something good and something nice, and now he’s gonna pay for it because of this this cursed item, this ancient evil. And so at this point in the movie I thought, okay, this is where this is going and it’s really it’s really pretty tragic. But at the same time it’s interjecting quite a bit of humor in there, you know, at at spots. Right. And it’s I can’t really recall any specific things, but there there are parts that you’ll just kinda laugh laugh at, chuckle, or groan. And that’s where it started to feel I don’t know. At at times, it was trying to be kind of sinister and really spooky and scary. And other times, it was trying to poke fun and say, hey.   Look. You’re still only watching a movie about a killer clown. It can’t be that simple. 

Craig:  Yeah. And I feel like it was a little uneven in that regard. Like, I couldn’t really tell which way it was trying to go. Like, because it doesn’t really play for the humor a lot, and you do really feel sympathy for this character. The guy, Kent, is played by an actor named Andy Powers who, is is just a I don’t know. I’m sure he’s a very good looking guy. He’s a Hollywood actor, but, you know, they kinda play down his looks. They kinda make him very much an every man here.   And he plays it really well. He he plays in every man really well. And so you feel for him, you know, at first, you feel bad that this is happening to him, but it just seems kind of more like a nuisance, an annoyance, like how am I gonna solve this problem? And as the story progresses and you see him really kind of spiraling downwards, then you really start to feel, bad, for the guy. And when he realizes he can’t get the the stuff off, he does some research, and he he finds out that the guy who died in the house had a brother. The way that he finds that out is he goes back and he finds, I don’t remember. Anyway, he does some research 

Todd:  and Yeah. Yeah. He goes to a costume shop, like a random costume shop. 

Clip:  I don’t know. It looks old. Smells weird.   Come on. Anything else? Please.   I don’t know, ma’am.   We sell Halloween costumes and cheap stuff. It’s not like that. Okay.   But, cheap stuff. Not like that.   Okay. But who does? There’s, like,   a lot. They’re in here. 

Todd:  And she opens up the yellow pages, which, again, I’m thinking this is 2013, and this 20 something year old clerk is opening up the yellow pages for this guy. Yeah. Anyway, she flips it open, and he just like it’s like she flips to one page and the next, and he, like, looks and he points at it. He’s like, that one right there. And I really don’t know why. Was it because of the initials on the 

Craig:  It was the name. It was the name. The the owner of the house’s name had been Carlson, and he finds this place called car Carlson’s costumes. Oh, that’s it. And so he calls this Carlson costumes and 

Clip:  I’m calling about, a clown costume. I I think might belong to you. It was found in Martin Carlson’s basement.   Where’s Martin? Oh,   I’m sorry. Martin Carlson passed away. I’m the real estate agent handling   the Whatever you do, don’t touch that costume. You understand? Stay away from it. Are you still in the house? I’ll be over as soon as I can. But don’t touch the costume, please.   I’m wearing it. 

Craig:  All of a sudden the guy’s like, oh, that’s that’s fine. Just be careful. It’s old and fragile. Come to my warehouse, and we’ll we’ll get that thing off you. And so he goes to this guy’s warehouse, and this guy, Carlson is played by Peter Starmare, who’s been in a lot of things. Right now. He’s currently one of the stars of, Neil Gaiman’s American Todd. But you’ll I totally recognize this guy from a lot of stuff.   He’s kind of this scary big guy, but he seems nice at first. And he he offers Kent some tea, and he starts telling him, he says, you know, this costume, it’s an old traditional costume from Nordic regions, and he says, but, people don’t know what the real origin of clowns are. And, then he kind of gives that backstory that you were talking about how, like, it’s kind of retconning clown origins. And I have no idea if if any of this has any 

Todd:  Oh, no. 

Craig:  Grounding in reality. He’s got 

Todd:  no grounding in reality. It it’s always the same too on these retcon things. Kinda like our Santa Claus thing. Right? Santa Claus was this big, evil, mean, you know, possibly supernatural kind of creature that actually did the opposite of what he does today. Right? He he’s not a jolly guy who loves kids. He went around murdering kids, and it’s the same thing with the clowns. There’s some demon. And, I didn’t really get that either, to be honest, because and maybe you can help me out here, but his explanation is that there’s this demon that lived in the woods, and it was called the cloyn, and it would lure children.   But eventually, the residents learned that they could keep him appeased by feeding him 5 children every year. They had to basically sacrifice 5 kids a year once for each of the months in winter. Right? Which is Scandinavian winter anyway. 

Craig:  He yeah. He he lives I I I think he lived at the top of a mountain, and that’s why his face was white, but his nose was red because, of the Todd. The cold. And so that’s where the look came from, and and yeah, exactly like you said, you know, he was an eater of children, and and I guess this this is all explained in about 15 seconds. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Basically what it comes down to is eventually, people forgot, about him. And and for whatever reason, then because he was forgotten, I guess he was no longer an immediate threat and the whole image of the clown took on a new meaning and it became this fun thing for kids. As he’s finishing up this story, Kent is getting very sleepy and it becomes really apparent that he’s been drugged. When he wakes up, he’s tied to a table and Carl’s, oh no, the drugs are supposed to keep you, out for a lot longer. And he says, decapitation is the only way to stop the demon. And you can tell that he’s planning on cutting Kent’s head off. And he says, and I really like this, I thought it was clever. He says, It’s not a costume.   It’s skin and hair of a demon. And I don’t know, we’ve probably seen, you know, we’ve seen things where people put on masks and the masks have effects on them and stuff, but the idea of this demon, you know, having this MO where its skin is made to look like a costume so somebody will put it on and then the demon can inhabit them. I thought that was kinda clever. I liked it. 

Todd:  Yeah. That was clever. And, also, again, it rose a few questions in my head, like, where in this clown legend did did they kill the demon and skin it? You know, all that. Like, how did all that how did all that kinda go? But, anyway, yeah, you’re right. It it was it was it was clever. It was interesting. And, you know, when you look again at the clown suit, you can see, yeah, again, it it looked scaly and gross. Like, I never would have put it on in the first place.   It Right. I thought this is a real Eli Roth moment, right, in the movie. Like, you could tell Yeah. These guys really liked him when he’s and, again, this is where it gets kinda funny where he’s like, oh, I thought the drugs the drugs should’ve kept you out, you know, through your decapitation. But, anyway, we’re gonna go through with it now. Right. 

Craig:  But but it it doesn’t happen because Kent, apparently has super strength now. So he breaks free of his bonds. And this was kinda funny. He he he races home, and he runs in, and he’s freaking out. And he’s like, we gotta get to the police. We gotta get to the police. This guy tried to kill me. And, he turns around, and his wife is sitting there, like, with the in laws, like her dad and, I guess, maybe her sister and brother-in-law or something.   And of course, they all think he’s nuts because he looks nuts. You know, he’s dressed up in this ratty clown suit, and he’s freaking out. And he’s telling this big story about how some guy’s trying to cut his head off. And I thought that it was funny that they’re like, he shows the wife, look. He he he chopped me up with a a butcher knife, and he’s got this big gash in his shoulder. And she’s like, well, where is the guy? And so he takes him outside, and he’s just got Carlson, like, tied up in a blanket in the back seat of the car. Oh, man. Which was, I thought pretty funny.   I I didn’t know exactly what he was planning to do. And and, you know, the wife, even he’s like, we gotta go to the police. And she’s like, well, what are, you know, what are we gonna tell them? They object, and I feel like that one of the men who’s there, it’s not, it’s not Meg’s dad. It’s it’s just, I I guess, another in law. Like like, grabs grabs, Kent, and Kent grabs him by the arm and, like, inadvertently, but because he’s so strong, breaks his arm. And so then Kent just goes off, by himself and in the car and he’s speeding along, but then I feel like, Carlson starts trying to fight him from the back seat. Meanwhile, he’s going through this transformation where, like, his fingers are are getting elongating and, like, becoming more claw like and his feet are growing larger and bursting out of his shoes. They end up crashing the car, and I thought Carlson died, but he, shows back up later.   But, he before, Kent flees the scene, Carlson tells him, you’ve gotta kill yourself. It’s it’s the only way. You’ve gotta kill yourself before you completely lose control. He runs off kind of into the woods. Then, you know, things, things happen so quickly. Like there’s a boy scout camp. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. There there’s a cub scout camp, and, like, one of the cub scouts has to go out into the woods to clean off his plate. And he’s, like, shining his flashlight around and the flash light lands on Kent, which is really one of the only kind of scary moments, or at least jump scare moments. And Kent says, do you have any food? I just want food. And the kid tries to hand him like some cookies or something, but Kent grabs the kid’s hand and bites his fingers off. So apparently Kent is developing this appetite for kids, and he can’t control it. And then he just kinda runs around for a while. 

Todd:  This is where I thought it got really, really funny. Like, of course, he runs into a cub scout. Right? After he’s transformed, there’s a boy scout that he gets to bite the hand off. Then he runs into a gas station bathroom. And what happens? But, like, a bus full of students or something pulls up, and they all get out. And it’s like, alright, guys. You’re in there for 10 minutes, and then we’re getting back on the road. And you’re right.   It’s just a whole bunch of back and forth. There’s him kinda hiding or him kinda acting the dog starts acting Craig, and then Kent calls his wife at some point in here, and it sounds like a suicide message. He says, I’m sorry. This is the only way. And he’s got a gun, and he sit down, and he puts the gun in his mouth, and he shoots it, and he blows his you know, the back of his head off. And, actually and it’s funny because the spray against the wall, it’s, like, multicolored. 

Craig:  I thought that was genius. I thought it was genius. I didn’t see it coming, And, you know, we’re so used to that imagery of, you know, the suicide blood splatter. And so I was expecting it to look like it always does. And the fact that it was all 

Clip:  of these like pastel, it was almost like party confetti. I thought that 

Craig:  was so clever. And of, of Exactly. 

Todd:  Exactly. Except I did actually look at the time on the movie at that point. I was like, okay. So this seems to become an arc here. I he’s probably not gonna be dead, but and I looked at we had it all. We had a whole hour left to go. Yeah. And I was like, wow.   Where is it gonna go for this next hour? I guess he’s gonna keep transforming and but we’re only a third of the way through the movie, and it still felt like ages had gone by. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. And and the next part, I mean it’s just kind of long. He the the suicide doesn’t work so he goes saw shopping And Good 

Clip:  to and 

Craig:  then he goes and then he goes back to this, like, I I guess this is like a motel room that he’s working on or something. I didn’t really understand that. His wife knows that he might be there because she finds him there later, but it doesn’t really matter. All that matters is there’s this little kid who keeps bugging him. 

Clip:  Are you a clown? I am Robbie. What’s your name? Woah. You really hungry. If you wanna eat, I got some cookies and waffle and cinnamon poke crunch and chocolate chip and chips and some doggies and something guilty. We’ll stay   on. 

Craig:  He sets the saws up, so that if he were he he puts a chair down in front or yeah. In front of the saws, and his plan, I guess, is that he’s going to lean back in the chair until he falls back, and then the saws will decapitate him. He’s hesitant, like he kind of false starts a couple times, but then it looks like he’s gonna do it. But right at the last second, the door flies open, and it’s this nosy kid again. He fell back, and he kinda fell wonky. And because of that, it, like, disturbed the saws, and they fell. And one of them broke, and the saw blade shot right through the little kid and killed him. And, then we don’t see it happen, but it’s implied that Kent eats the kid.   And it was at that point that I realized, okay, they’re really gonna go there. 

Clip:  Oh, yeah. 

Craig:  You know, this guy’s this guy’s gonna be a child murderer. And over the course of the next half hour or so, he kills several more kids in pretty brutal ways. And it’s not that I enjoy seeing children suffer or be killed on screen, but I did think it was pretty ballsy that they’re just like, yep. We’re doing it. We’re going there. We’re killing cute little kids. 

Todd:  Yeah. I I actually appreciated that about this movie. Again, movies don’t often go there. Why not? It’s a horror movie. You show absolutely every other horrible thing you can. Why not show kids getting eaten? You know? That’s kinda where I stand on this whole thing. Right. But Yep.   Yep. But at some point here then, her she finds him. And I I still don’t quite understand why she went to this motel, and I also don’t understand how she found his room so quickly. It’s like she’s wandering outside. They’re knocking on random doors or something, and she hears them through the door, and she starts talking through the door. It was there anything? 

Craig:  She had a list of the properties that he was working on. I don’t know why a realtor would be working on a lone motel room. Todd doesn’t really make any sense to me, but so no. I don’t know. I don’t know what the answer is, but she does find him and they have kind of this sad conversation through the door where she says, you know, I I I want you to be okay. I just want you to come home, and she confesses that she’s pregnant, and and he says, take me home. And she opens the door, and we don’t see him. All we see is her reaction to him.   And it’s really good. It’s good in the acting because she Is obviously horrified by what she sees, but at the same time, it’s her husband. You know, it’s not like she runs a she’s, she doesn’t run away shrieking in fear. She wants to help. She realizes now that what he’s been saying, that something is wrong with this costume, it’s doing something to him, she realizes that it’s true and she wants to help. They go home and, she chains him up in the basement and, he says, You’ve got to keep me down here and no matter what I say, you can’t let me out. And so then it’s her turn, to kind of start, doing some research. And, she goes back to that original property, and, she finds this weird chair that’s, like, bolted to the floor.   And, then she finds this old VHS, camcorder. And of course, the tape is still in there. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  So she’s able she’s able to watch what was recorded. 

Todd:  And, apparently, the battery to the camcorder is still fully, charged and operational. 

Craig:  Right? Right. 

Todd:  What Mabe is plugged into 

Craig:  the wall? 

Todd:  Who knows? But, 

Craig:  Okay. So she she looks through the lens, and at first, she just kinda sees the empty chair, and then somebody kinda walks by frame and that kind of gives her a start. But then she either rewinds or fast forwards, and she sees this demon strapped into this chair and it’s just straight up demon. You know, it doesn’t look like clown suit anymore. It looks, very much like a very scary demon, and I really liked the effect. We’re seeing it through the lens of this camera and it’s kind of in shades of blue. You know, it’s really low quality, almost like it was maybe shot in the dark or something. And I thought that that really kind of added to the mystique and and scariness, of the demon.   If we had seen it in more sharp focus, it might not have been as scary. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  But she knows what she’s dealing with, at this point. Meanwhile, Jack, the son, is getting bullied at school. So he runs home and Kent calls to him from the basement and it’s really ominous and scary because Kent’s being really nice and saying, you know, come talk to daddy. You know, mommy said it’s okay. And the kid goes down there and they have this conversation. 

Clip:  At school, some kids tried to put face on my face. They’re always doing that stuff.   Who is?   Colton.   You know what I did when I was bullying? I hid so that they couldn’t find me. And then after a while, you know what happened?   They left you alone.   Hey, Jack. You know where the bolt gutters are. 

Craig:  And then it cuts back to Meg, who gets a call from her friend who was supposed to pick Jack up, and Jack’s not there. So she’s racing home, and I was just I didn’t know. I was I was fairly certain that she was gonna find, her kid having been eaten. But, no, she goes home, and the kid’s okay. But Kent is gone. And then we get another pretty brutal scene. 

Todd:  Yeah. So it turns out Kent went to the house, and I actually like this bit because, it it so for all of the landline phones and the yellow pages that we had before, suddenly we are kind of acknowledging a bit of the modern, and this kid is playing, I guess, on his Xbox or something with his friends. And now nowadays, when you play Xbox with your friends, none of you are in the same room. You’re all in your different houses, and 

Clip:  you’ve 

Todd:  got these headsets on, and you’re chatting with each other. And there’s one thing that, like, now I’m not a I honestly don’t play these multiplayer games. I like playing games, but I don’t like playing with other people online because most people are dicks. Yeah. But, but this this movie pretty much highlights that. And if you know anything about this sort of scene, you know that kids are really nasty to each other, and this kid is no different. He’s one of these kids, and they’re trash talking back and forth, and they’ve got this totally foul language. And, the kid has to get up because he hears something in the house and he walks around.   In the meantime, the other kids, we still hear kind of the soundtrack through his head through his headset, which has been which he Todd down on the counter. And, as the clown comes into the house and faces this kid down. In the meantime, the others are in the background going, oh, yeah. Well, Carlson, he told Jack today blah blah blah, and they’re basically retelling the story of how he bullied Jack while his dad is is facing him down in this you know, as a demon. Like, I don’t know. Must be, like, a a chunk of his head or a piece of his body flies and hits the screen. Yeah. Blood splattering. 

Craig:  Blood everywhere. Yeah. 

Todd:  Again, like, another total Eli Roth moment. But, again, this is where it gets a little totally weird because we’ve been we’ve been alternating between these really funny scenes, and yet we’re also getting these pretty horrifying scenarios where most horror movies dare not tread, you know, this violence towards children thing. No matter how bad a bully is, nobody’s in their right mind when they’re, you know, 12 years old. And, 

Craig:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  You know, they don’t deserve that kind of treatment, and so it’s it’s pretty it’s pretty brutal. And now, again, I’m fine with it personally, but but, it does throw off the movie. You you really don’t know how to feel. And and honestly, to my mind, it’s still not scary. 

Craig:  Yeah. I know what you mean, and it it should be because it’s it’s pretty brutal. And at this point, you know, the Kent, the demon is is pretty menacing, but you’re right. I don’t know. It’s just it’s it’s that weird imbalance because it should be kind of fun like, you know, it’s like retribution, like, this kid’s getting what he deserves. But at the same time, like, well, he’s just a kid. You know? Like, so I don’t know. It’s it’s it’s a mixed bag.   Well, then it cuts back to the family home and, Meg, the mom, is confronted by the dog who is now a demon dog and kind of has a clown face of his own. And just as the dog’s about to attack, Carlson shows up and chops the dog’s head off. And and the dog’s body kind of flails around for a minute in front of Jack, which I thought was a good touch. Like, this poor kid is being traumatized. But then, Carlson tells Meg the same thing that he told, Kent, you know, he’s gotta be decapitated. He’s gotta be killed. It’s the only way. But somewhere along the lines, Meg had also looked through this book that Kent had found with the costume, and it was about the demon and whatnot.   And there were all these pictures stuck in there. And one of the pictures was, of Carlson in the clown suit. And so she says, I know that there’s more than one way to get it off because you got it off at some point. He gives the back story at some point and says, you know, I found this costume, I put it on. I, you know, my my brother was a doctor and he worked in a children’s cancer ward and I thought that I could help, cheer up the kids. And there’s these pictures of him like trying to cheer up the kids and whatnot. He says, But then the transformation started, and somehow, I don’t know how they figured it out, but they figured out that if they gave him, the demon, 5 kids, then, Carlson would be released. And so the, the doctor brother smuggled 5 kids who were very close to death out and fed them to the clown and that’s how Carlson was able to escape.   And there again, so many loose ends like, What? How would that happen? You know, like Todd noticed. Nobody noticed. 5 kids just went missing and that’s the same thing, you know. Some some crazy person dressed as a clown bit a kid’s fingers off in the woods, and nobody heard about that. It wasn’t on the news. You know, the cops weren’t involved. This he ate this little kid in the motel. Where were this kid’s parents? You know? Yeah.   This kid lived alone in the motel, I guess. At some point, Carlson and Meg go to Colton’s house and find Colton’s body. It’s like, where are his parents? You know, like, there’s this this whole string of dead children and mutilated children all over town. 

Todd:  But, you know, that’s kind of the inherent problem with doing a movie like this about kids is because, unlike adult, adults can go missing. Right? And maybe it could plausibly take a while to find them, but kids are monitored, you know, most of the time. So, yeah, it’s even more implausible, and and you’ve kind of got to address that, and they really don’t at all. 

Craig:  Yeah. Just about as implausible as a costume turning you into a clown demon, I suppose. So I guess 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. 

Clip:  Well, you gotta go with it. It’s something too 

Craig:  much into it. For sure. 

Todd:  For sure. 

Craig:  Well, so this leads then into the final act, which was my favorite. Carlson and Meg are working together now, and, they think where would a clown go where he could be relatively unnoticed? And so, they go to Chuck E. Cheese. And, I I loved this scene. I thought this this scene I actually thought was really scary. And I love when movies can take something that is totally, you know, mundane and and nonthreatening, and even, you know, something that’s like joyous and celebratory and make it completely ominous. And she’s walking around this Chuck E. Cheese and just knowing that this clown is in there somewhere and there are so many places that he could be in the shadows or hiding.   It was really cool. And at some point, a kid falls into the ball pit and says, oh, somebody peed in here. But he gets out and you see that the back of his jeans are actually blood stained. And then you see this other kid looking for his brother in one of those big, like, play places, like those tunnel crawl throughs. And and eventually he crawls in there and we get all this whole brief scene of him crawling around in the tunnels. And it’s so scary. And eventually, eventually he does find the clown who has his brother, but he’s able to get his brother away. But then that kid ends up getting brutally killed and blood in it, like, I feel like a limb comes sliding down, the slide at which everybody sees.   And then it’s just total chaos in this place, and everybody’s trying to get their kids out. And and they do, but Meg is still in there. So then she goes into this really cool, like, black light forest, and she finds Kent, who is now almost entirely demon, and Kent can kind of talk to her a little bit, but then the demon kinda takes over. Bring me one 

Clip:  more child, and you’re gonna have your husband   back.   Perhaps I’ll find another. What’s this name? Ah, yes. The 

Craig:  cops are bursting in, and the clown takes off. And so she sneaks out, leaving Carlson there to take the wrap for these murders that have just taken place. And she goes out into the parking lot and she’s looking around and there’s all these kids. And I feel like it’s kind of in slow motion. She’s looking around and all these kids are running by and it’s like she realizes, I could nab one of these kids. And she almost does, but then the kid’s mom shows up. And so she’s just sitting in her car, and a kid comes to her and says, you work at the dentist office. You were always really nice.   I can’t I was at this birthday party, but now I can’t find anybody. Can you please take me home? And, of course, this is her perfect, opportunity. 

Todd:  Yeah. And I have to say this whole scene now, I like the fact that, stylistically, it was really cool that she ends up in this black light mini golf course in the Chuck E. Cheese that’s also done up like a forest. It’s like it’s like this demon’s back in his forest element or whatever, which was really neat. But at this point, again, the movie kinda changes a bit. Now first of all, it’s it’s really we’re not we’re not the fly anymore. You know? We haven’t been for a little while. Kind of dropped the idea of Jack’s transformation, him fighting this thing.   It’s it’s just full on demon. And so we kinda forget about the fact that this is Jack, except for the fact that she’s I guess, she thinks that if she can, you know, get this other kid, that, that he’ll be back to normal. But at the same time, this is a guy who’s just been running around eating kids, like, on his own. So why he would need to make a bargain with her to bring him one more child is a little silly. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  He can get another kid. Right. He he just burst out. He’s he’s pretty much invincible. He can just burst out into the parking lot and eat as many kids as he wants and and jump away, or he didn’t have to be so deliberate about, you know, getting the others, in the, you know, in the bouncy house. So it it just just like, you know? I was kind of at this point in the movie. I’m going, okay. Now now it’s gonna be another half an hour.   And and it really is. It’s like at that point, you’ve still got almost 20 minutes left to the movie. And I’m thinking, how much how how how far can this movie go? And, oh, by the way, I I really did like that sequence, by the way. Now, again, putting aside the fact that most Chuck E. Cheese’s are super brightly lit. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd:  And this would have way too much shadow, and and it was convenient when, like, suddenly, this really, really busy, area was suddenly devoid of kids so they could have the suspenseful scene. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  It was neat how they were clearly channeling like alien with them crawling through, like, ductwork, you know, and and especially that creepy moment where the girl pops in and says, don’t go up there. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that whole sequence. I thought it was good, and I thought it was really suspenseful. But you’re right. You know, at this point, why would this demon be making deals, period? Why would he be conceding to anything? Like, is he eager to get back into costume form? Like, why would he just take over this guy forever and just keep eating kids forever? You know, it doesn’t really make any sense. 

Todd:  He’s not chained to a chair. Right. 

Craig:  Yeah. But anyway, so she she takes the girl to where she’s supposed to to meet the demon or whatever, but at the last second, she chickens out. And because she chickens out, she knows that the demon’s gonna be going after Jack. So she goes back home, where Jack isn’t even supposed to be this dumbass grandpa who’s been a dumbass through the whole movie, takes the kid back home, which is so stupid. And eventually, she gets there, and the dad says, everything’s okay. The the the grandpa had found blood, and he’s like, I’m gonna help you out. You know? I don’t know what Kent did. I don’t care.   You know? You’re my daughter. I’m gonna make sure you’re not implicated in this. And then, of course, immediately, the clown rips his face off. But and he’s dead. 

Todd:  But that’s so against his character. I mean, that made no sense because the whole time through the movie, you know, which we haven’t mentioned, but he’s, like, trying to convince her the guy’s bad. You know, you kinda like he’s going crazy. You need to kinda leave him. You need to kinda get away. I hope why don’t you and Jack come and stay with me? So why he’s just not like, you need to get out of here. I told you so. Let’s call the cops.   It Todd didn’t make any sense. 

Craig:  No. It was clunky. I mean, what he says is I just wanna make sure that you’re not implicated in any of this, but Yeah. You’re right. You know, just why would you think that? Why wouldn’t you just get her out? You know, why would, why would she be implicated? You know? But it doesn’t matter. He’s dead. And so then it becomes the demon chasing the wife, Meg and Jack around the house. The he fights with Meg a lot, and there’s a lot of fighting going on.   I have to say also that all of this is really, really dark. Watch this movie in the dark. I always watch these movies during the daytime and it’s such a mistake because I can’t see, you know, what’s going on. But it’s it’s a lot of chasing around. Eventually, he gets her, like, pinned up against a wall. And apparently either he remembers because she told him or he can sense that she’s pregnant and he starts, like, push his pushing his hand up against her abdomen. And, like, I feel like one of the his claws, like, even penetrates her skin a little bit. But then he gets distracted by Jack, and so he chases Jack around for a while and he gets gets Jack cornered, like, in a closet, but he he can’t get in there entirely.   And then somehow, Meg gets a Craig. Well, she she slashes him with a knife at some point, and she slashes his throat. So there’s, like, this gash in his throat. Somehow as he’s trying to get Jack in the closet, she’s able to get a chain around his neck, and, she kinda pulls him back so he’s chained there. And at that point, I feel like she’s going to kill him, but, he reverts back to Kent’s voice and says, help me. And, so she turns to Jack, and she’s like, go get that book. Maybe we can still help daddy. And the kid says, That’s not Todd.   Which which I thought was good. And so then the demon, like, you know, jumps up and charges at them, but is still chained around his neck. And she takes the sledgehammer and just knocks his head off. Like the chain slices through that gash that’s already, in his neck and he’s laying there with his head hanging off. I knew that he wasn’t going to be dead yet because there’s a little tiny bit still attached, like like it was kinda hanging there by his skull. And of course you get that, you know, moment where Jack and and Meg are like embracing one another and then the demon jumps up again and she has to grab his head and rip it all the way off and then she drops the head and the demon starts to melt away and and again, you see Kent’s face underneath. So I guess and then that’s pretty much it. Then you see scenes of the costume getting packed up into evidence bags and that’s the last shot.   You just see, you know, the costume in these evidence bags, which, you know, implies that, Oh no, you know, somebody else could put back on or or whatever. I I tried to kinda speed through the ending there because there were there were things that I wanted to talk about thematically. But how did you feel about the, the end? 

Todd:  Yeah. You know, I guess the nice thing about it was, the movie doesn’t really pull any punches. It is brutal and bloody throughout, if you’re into that, and, it is not the low budget affair. There’s a lot of gore. There’s a the special effects are really Todd, the the parts that you can see anyway. Like you said, it’s it’s pretty dark for a lot of that. Yeah. I mean, at the at at some point, you know, I was thinking, where’s this how can this movie possibly end well for anybody? And it really doesn’t.   Right. I guess I like that too. I like that aspect. I mean, it’s not like Jack got saved at the last minute. He’s gone. And again, you know, when that sort of thing happens in The Fly, it feels really tragic and sad. And here too, I was thinking, yeah, This guy didn’t deserve any of this. Like, he absolutely was just a total victim to this.   And, it didn’t really pull all of the heartstrings it probably could have with them, you know, sort of knowingly just killing their own father because he he’s not exist like he said, like the kids said, that’s not dad. He’s not there anymore, and we never got that kind of emotional closure from the family. I don’t know. How much could you really throw in there? How much is really absolutely necessary? But it it does basically cut that off at the legs, you know, that whole notion that this is kind of a fly story, this tragic thing. It starts out that way, and then it just kinda fizzles out, just becomes, he’s possessed by a demon he’s gotta go Todd. Again, uneven maybe is the best way to put it. It’s like the movie really didn’t know what kind of movie it wanted to be, and so it’s hard to emotionally respond to that. You know what I mean? 

Craig:  Yeah. I I kinda feel the same way. You know, I’m kinda hot and cold with it. I kinda like the concept. It was interesting. Interestingly enough, another movie came out in 2012 called Scary or Die, and it was a anthology film. And there was like 5 shorts. And one of them was about a guy, who was played by Corbin Bleu, who was at a birthday party for his little brother or sister, and this scary clown stumbled in and started, you know, causing havoc and bit him.   And then he, like, turns into a zombie clown. Like, he starts turning into a clown, and he wants to eat kids and stuff too. Really kind of shockingly similar, but they were filmed the same year. So, even though even though clown came out, you know, a couple of years later, surprisingly similar, and it reminded me of that a lot. Critically, this movie, it, you know, it’s kinda like you and I. You know, we we don’t really know where to go with it. The the reviews were mixed. It got some really, really positive reviews, and some kind of mediocre reviews and some negative ones.   One of the more interesting reviews that I saw, and it was interesting to me because I hadn’t thought of it at all, but this, critic viewed the movie as a metaphor for a man struggling with pedophilia or or an impulse towards pedophilia. And and trying to deal with that and deal with having an outlet for that and and not wanting it to affect his own family or or his own child. And I hadn’t thought of that at all, and I really, really, really doubt that that’s what they were going for. Yeah. But but it kinda shed a new light on it for me, you know, instead of it being a literal demon, you know, a guy, just this normal, seemingly normal guy struggling with with inner demons and predatory instincts. And I I don’t know. I just found that kind of fascinating. Again, I doubt that was their intent at all, but for me, it made me think about the movie more. 

Todd:  Well, you’re that is interesting. Although, you’re absolutely right. There’s no evidence for it, really. I mean, we’ve we see so little of the guy in the beginning, and we get no sense of any of this before he starts. Again, Todd be a metaphor, it doesn’t you don’t have to. You know, you don’t have to get it, I guess, at the beginning. But, yeah, it’s a little too b movie at times. It’s a little too goofy to be that smart. 

Craig:  To be taken so seriously. Right. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Sure. Sure. Yeah. I I mean, it wasn’t a bad film at all. I I can see why probably people didn’t respond to it too well, just like you and I. You kinda walk away from it and go, you know, I he was entertaining at parts. You know, there were there were parts where, you know, the bloodlust kinda kicks in, and you’re like, yeah. Wow.   That was really sweet, or, man, I can’t believe they went there. You know, that scene at the at the Chuck E. Cheese is quite good. But as a whole, as just a whole movie, I seriously, I was kinda looking I was kind of checking the time the whole way through because I just maybe there wasn’t enough foreshadowing, maybe it wasn’t formulaic enough, or maybe it was following I don’t think it I think it was following too many different formulas. Maybe that there were so many times when I thought, okay. It’s going here, and it’s gonna end soon. You know? And it didn’t. 

Craig:  Yeah. And it and it could have. You know? Like, it just seemed like it was such a linear plot. Like, you could have cut out a third or more of it, and you wouldn’t have lost anything except some gore. Sure. There there, you know, there was a there was a progression of his going from Kent to this demon full on, but it was kind of drawn out longer than it needed to be. They were going for a feature length film but it’s an hour 40. I think they could have shaved off a good 20 minutes and, maybe it would have been a little bit more tight.   But I’m not complaining too much. It was entertaining. It was a little long, but I wasn’t bored. And that 3rd act for me, with the Chuck E. Cheese stuff, that kind of was worth the price of admission for me because I really, really liked that scene. 

Todd:  Again, it had kind of the stamp of Eli Roth on a little bit. You could see that these guys were obviously inspired by him, you know, it had some of the comedy in there but maybe not enough, it had it was trying to go for scary but it never quite reached it for me, You know I really like the idea of that being a metaphor for pedophilia, I really do. As much as I hate the idea that it seems like people who are clowns or who are magicians or are children’s entertainers in general nowadays kinda get suspected of that, You know? Yeah. As a guy who enjoys doing that kind of thing and likes kids and and and stuff, I have to admit, like, I people are overly sensitive towards, overly suspicious, I should say, of people who just like to hang out and be nice to kids, you know, and do things for them that, it it becomes you just kinda walk a dangerous walk all of a sudden. And so, you know, it would bother me if that were the intent of the movie, but I I really don’t think it was at all. At the end of the day, I’m glad we watched it. It was really interesting. I could see where it struggled to find an audience.   I’m not quite sure why it was so buried by the studio because we’ve seen much worse. It’s a mystery to me why why I’m watching this now, and I really hadn’t heard of it before. Well, thank you again for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. You can find us on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, and wherever your favorite podcasts are. You can also find us on Facebook where you could like our page. Let us know what you thought of this episode and this film. And, also, please suggest future films for us to watch.   Until that day, I’m Todd And I’m Craig. With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Well, it ain’t gonna win any awards. You know how much fun it is popping bubble wrap? Poking through the plot holes in this film held about as much entertainment for us in this hour-long episode. Give it a listen and feel free to laugh along with us.

Episode 86, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Today’s film is a pretty fresh and recent one, came out in February of this year, called Eloise. Now Eloise flew completely under my radar. Did it go directly to video, or was it actually released in the theaters, Craig? Do you what do you know about this movie? 

Craig:  I know very little about it. I assume it must have gone direct to video because I had heard nothing about it. In fact, the only reason that I came across this movie is I just happened to, well, I was at work and I had nothing to do. Kind of a long story. I don’t usually just sit around at work watching YouTube. But, anyway, on this particular day, I had nothing to do, so I just searched full horror movie on, YouTube, and this popped up. And I had never heard of it. I had no idea what it was.   I was surprised to see that it was 2017, and it was, available on YouTube. It’s since been pulled, so I’m sure it was, posted. I’m sure it was posted illegally. But in that small window when it was available on YouTube, I I watched it because I had the time, and that that’s it. I mean, I had I had never heard of it at all. I had no idea it had even existed, which kinda surprised me because it’s got some big names attached to it. 

Todd:  Yeah. It does have, to be fair, a bit of that direct to video feel to it. That that might be one of the criticisms that I have of the movie. But you’re right, Chase Crawford is in it. I think he’s, been in Gossip Girl. He has a 1,000,000,000 roles. He at least 19 on on IMDB. And he has the kind of face that looks it’s that common face right now, like, everybody looks like Chase Crawford. 

Craig:  Yeah. Handsome young guy. Yeah. 

Todd:  Yeah. Dark, and and, you know, it’s like Thor. And, yeah, he just looks he just looks like, about 5 or 6 different actors. And then, Sure. Eliza Dushku. Yeah? And she’s been in a number of things as well. 

Craig:  Oh, I love her. I’m a I’m a huge fan of hers, and that’s really the thing that hooked me to get me to watch the movie. I thought if she was attached to it, she was in it. It couldn’t be that bad. I guess that remains to be seen. We’ll see. But, yeah, she, of course, most people probably know her from, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She was Faith, on that, and She she reprised that role on Angel, the spin off, and then she worked with Josh Whedon.   She worked with Josh Whedon again on Dollhouse, but that was, short lived. But yeah, she’s been around. She’s, worked in the genre. She was in the original Wrong Turn. So she’s, she’s worked in the genre, and and I like her. She’s gorgeous. She’s tough. She’s a cool girl.   So I was I was that that hooked me. That’s what got me to watch the movie. 

Todd:  And even, the the villain in this case is Robert Patrick. And, I mean, here’s a person who if if you don’t recognize his name, you totally recognize his face. He’s been in, like, every movie, I think. Just every movie. He has a part in it. 

Craig:  Yeah. He was the he was the badass Terminator in Terminator 2. He’s, you know, big guy. 

Todd:  Yeah. Real cool. So, yeah, you’ve got these stars, and then the director, is Robert Legato who is a visual effects wiz. I think this was his first directorial effort or at least the most recent one. He’s directed some TV shows, but but not no movies until now. But Titanic, he did the visual effects, Apollo 13, Hugo. Yep. Sadly Mhmm.   Probably not a fantastic debut movie for him. 

Craig:  Yeah. And I was kinda surprised by that, you know, because he’s worked on, like you said, those big movies like Titanic and Apollo 13, The New Jungle Book, which got, you know, rave reviews for its effects. So I’m thinking, oh, man. We’re in for something good here. Sadly, I I feel like he he must have been kind of constrained by the budget.   While the while while there’s, you know, there’s there’s good attempts at visual effects here, it just doesn’t seem like it had the money behind it to really be great. 

Todd:  Well, I sort of felt actually like the visual effects were maybe the standout part of the movie. I mean, I was watching this, and I seriously, I was expecting something super low budget. And I and clearly, it was low budget, but either the technology’s getting better, or this guy had, some friends and some tricks up his sleeve, because I was pretty impressed, at how it rose above a little bit, the typical kind of visual effects transitions and things like that that you get on what I again assume, is a straight to DVD movie. Right. Yeah. I don’t know that some of the parts that, most, intrigued me about the movie were the bits. There are a lot of flashback scenes and things, but the transitions between them are are kind of inventive, and I’m sure we’ll talk about some of that as we go a little later. But, everything else about the movie honestly was not terribly inventive. 

Craig:  No. Not really. And and I I think you can probably tell from our tone already that we’re not super impressed with this movie. But even before I started watching it, I looked at some of the reviews, and the reviews were not great. Frankly, I I don’t think it’s that bad. You know? I I think that it’s it’s it’s a it’s a fine movie. It’s decent. It’s not great.   It’s not particularly unique or original. Basically, what it comes down to is a haunted asylum, and it it’s, you know, you’ve we’ve seen those movies before, and this doesn’t do a whole lot different than what I’ve seen before with those movies. But really, the thing that I found most intriguing about this movie really is not anything to do with the movie at all, but it’s rather just the, history behind the title, Eloise, which I had never heard of this place before. But apparently, this was a real asylum in Michigan, and the movie opens up with this text across the screen that says, Eloese was the largest insane asylum in the country. What started as one building in 18/32 grew into 78 buildings covering 900 acres in Todd, Michigan. Rumors of inhumane testing and treatment of patients administered by doctor HH Grice and a devastating fire officially closed LOEs in 1982. Only 4 of the original 78 buildings still stand. And that idea of this this bizarre history of this asylumhospital that really became its own town.   I mean it was so large, It had its own post office. It had its own zip code. It had its own tavern and, the fire department and and police station. And it really, for a very long time, from the thirties to the eighties, existed as this odd community. And and I found the history just absolutely fascinating. Of course, everything that happens in the movie is fictionalized based around that historic place. 

Todd:  Yeah. And, like, what is it about Michigan? Did they, like, give off tax credits or something back in the day, back in the 1800 for building asylums and mental health facilities there. I mean 

Clip:  Why do you have no idea? 

Todd:  Kellogg, you know, Kellogg had his big famous place there as well. It was a big sprawling kind of a state thing, pretty interesting. So, yeah. Anyway, clearly a slightly different history from the actual history of the facility. I think that was kind of funny, actually, about the film, a bit of a punch line for me, but I think we’ll get to that, later as we continue to talk about it. But, yeah, the movie opens up with a kind of a bookend. And honestly, in my opinion, a pretty unnecessary bookend. You know, usually with these kind of bookended tales, there’s kind of a punch line at the end or some kind of point to some kind of extra reveal when when you have this kind of thing, and and there really wasn’t for this movie.   In fact, all it really did was serve to tell us what was gonna happen. Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I thought so too. I mean, it it just kinda felt like an unnecessary spoiler, you know. Like, the the first scene we see is is kind of, I guess, a flash back scene. It’s supposed to be at the asylum, and there’s this this this patient, this male patient, and it’s all in black and white, and he’s talking to his doctor. 

Clip:  I I just wanna say, doctor Graves, that I’m feeling a lot better today than I was yesterday, and yesterday, I was feeling better than, before that. And tomorrow, I’m gonna feel better. Doctor Blake, Laurie. Help me, doctor Greyson. Fine. 

Craig:  Of course, you know, this is supposed to horrify us because he’s receiving this unnecessary treatment or whatever. And then I feel like there’s kind of some news reports on the fire that destroyed most of the facility, and it talked about how Doctor. Grice, the guy who’s played by Robert Patrick, who ends up being our villain, how he was killed in the fire. And the news report talks about how there the locals still to this day hear screams from the remains and, still see apparitions and ghosts. And then you get to that that wrap around that you talk about where we see this young woman, her name ends up being Pia, played by Eliza Dushku. It appears that she’s in some sort of facility, an asylum or a hospital or something. You you assume it’s maybe an asylum because it appears that the windows, are barred and and those types of things. And she’s visited by a detective who comes in and tells her that kids found Dell’s body 2 days ago.   Of course, we don’t know who that is yet. We find out soon. And says, we also found your brother, Scott’s remains. All of this is just exposition delivered through this doctor. He says, you know, because it was such a intensive gas explosion, We had to look at the dental records to identify these guys, but, we were able to do that. And he says, but we didn’t find Jacob. 

Clip:  Again, we have no idea what he’s talking about. 

Craig:  And and then he pulls out this this case file, and he says it’s from a previous patient. And it appears like he pulls out Jacob’s birth certificate and some sketches, but we can’t really see what these sketches are. And then it just cuts to the title, Eloise. And then we start out in what we assume is present day, with this guy Jacob, who’s a mechanic, getting a call from his dad’s lawyer. And like you said, you know, the the wrap around the bookend, ultimately you know, in the beginning, I didn’t really know what was going on. I’m like, okay, intrigued. That’s great. But then as soon as we’re introduced to Jacob, I’m like, okay.   Well, I guess I’m not gonna get too invested in his character. 

Todd:  Exactly. 

Craig:  We know we know how this is gonna end up. Yeah. But but that’s yeah. That’s where the the the plot begins. 

Todd:  That’s right. I also like the sort of, deadpan delivery of, oh, by the way, we found your brother’s body. There’s no, like, sorry for your loss. I know this must be hard for you. Right. It it is kind of funny, and it’s all kind convoluted. The setup is pretty corny. Jacob is working on a car.   Apparently, he owns this body repair shop or at least he works there, And he gets a phone call and the phone call is immediately, it’s from a guy who introduces himself as his father’s lawyer, and he says, Well, I haven’t talked to my father in 2 years. And once again, he’s like, well, your father’s dead. Yeah. He died, like, 2 days ago, and, we we need you to come here, for the funeral or for the reading of the will or something. At first, I thought he said we we need you to come here for the funeral, but later on, we find out that the funeral happened, like, 2 days ago. It it was it was kind of strange, like, I’m I’m sorry. Even though your son is you might be estranged, like, you’re dead now. People are gonna contact your son.   Somebody has to take care of you, you know, at the end. Family members don’t just get called long after the funerals of their of their immediate family. You know what I mean? 

Craig:  One would think. Yeah. One would think. 

Todd:  Anyway, he ends up leaving immediately even though they’ve been estranged for 2 years and even though apparently this funeral’s already happened. He immediately packs all of his things, hops on his motorcycle, and just leaves the car he was working on, to go to Detroit. And Yeah. Ends up in the office of this lawyer. And the lawyer again, gives us a big pile of exposition. He’s his only heir since he doesn’t have a mother, he doesn’t have a sister or anything like that, and so he’s going to be getting his money. And Jacob says, well, I’m sure that’s not very much. He says, oh, it’s a sizable amount.   There’s 1,200,000 in an account. However, in order to release it, we need to settle up, I guess, this this other potential relative. There’s an aunt that he had named Genevieve Martin, and they need proof of her death. So everybody assumes that she died at this asylum because guess what? She was a patient there, I suppose, but they need confirmation of her death, and there never was a death certificate or something like that. 

Craig:  Which is stupid. It’s so dumb. Like, it’s, like, it’s it’s so convoluted and stupid. Like, that that wouldn’t happen. No. Right? Like, if if if if she was presumed dead and nobody knew where she was, like, oh, sorry. We’re just gonna hold this until there’s proof. And you’re responsible for providing that proof if you 

Clip:  want Todd many. Right. 

Craig:  Okay. Okay. Well then I’ll just run over to the hospital and get the records. Like, it’s it’s dumb, you know? But that’s I I guess that’s that’s the plan. Like, that’s what he’s gonna do. But before he does that, he goes to his dad’s house, and it’s like big fancy house. Super. And, you can tell that all of this is is set up for something, but it just it feels kinda clunky.   And and in talking about it, really, I’m being more critical than I was at the time because it all goes by very quickly. It’s not like they linger on it a long time or anything, but he goes to his dad’s house and he finds this weird box. Like, I couldn’t tell what it was. It looked like, obviously, some sort of memory box or something, but it had holes popped in the top of it for some reason, obviously, that we’ll find out later. And he opens it up, and he pulls out, like, a long ribbon. Don’t forget about that ribbon. He pulls out a ribbon, and then he he finds some pictures, presumably of, his aunt. And and there’s pictures of the aunt.   She’s this pretty blonde lady, and it seems like there’s also maybe pictures of a nurse or something. The lawyer had told him that his dad had, killed himself, by by slicing his throat with a straight razor. And Jacob, like, finds the razor, like, in a pool of blood. Like like, this was supposed to have happened, like, last week and, like, the blood is still fresh and, like, nobody cleaned this up or anything. 

Todd:  In the meantime, there are these creepy noises, like, happening around the house behind them that are supposed to be spooking us. And as he pulls up this razor and kind of looks in the mirror, and it’s that it’s that thing where he sees his own reflection, but he sees it as his father. You know, they’re sort sort of trying to draw some connection or something like that. Suddenly, a guy in a ski mask surprises him from behind. While he’s holding the razor 

Clip:  Holy shit. What the are you doing with that razor? 

Craig:  You scared 

Clip:  the shit out of me. What the 

Craig:  are you doing in a ski mask? 

Clip:  Look, I saw the lights on. Took a chance. Look, I was with you. Okay? Did you hear about my old man? Yeah, man. I’m sorry. Hey. Oh. Yo.   What? You scared a little straight? It’s 

Todd:  like what? There’s a guy in a ski mask behind you. But apparently, through the ski mask, he recognizes, you know, in a split second that it’s his friend. 

Craig:  Yeah. No. It doesn’t make any sense. In fact, what I got from this, it I I think that what we’re the way that I pieced it together is this guy was his friend, but this like, I’m stumbling over it because it’s it’s so ridiculous. Like, I think that Dell, this guy who’s played by Brandon t Jackson, handsome black guy, like, I think that he was really there to loot the house, but it just turns out that his friend happened to be there. So he was like, oh, well, since you’re here, I guess never mind. 

Todd:  Yeah. That’s another way to interpret 

Craig:  it. Well, right. And and and Jake and, like, Jacob almost thinks it’s funny. Like, Like, at one point, he asks him, like, hey, what time is it? And Del’s like, I don’t know. And and Jacob’s like, oh, really? You can’t check that watch you lifted from my dad’s house? He’s like, oh, well, I just picked that up. 

Clip:  Or you know, like Yeah. 

Todd:  He’s like, oh, 

Craig:  you can’t check that watch. Yeah. I just thought that it was hilarious that Jacob didn’t care at all that his quote, unquote friend was there to loot the house and and just kind of got thwarted. Silly, but whatever. Moving on. 

Todd:  And so they end up at a bar, and this is, again, so so convoluted. They end up at a bar, and so they’re sitting down, and there’s a bit of by play between Jacob and the bartender, who at first, I thought, oh, this is somebody he knew. He’s really super flirting with her. And he asked her for a drink called the last Todd. And Uh-huh. I thought that was, like, meaningful. Like, I’d like the last Todd, but it truly was a drink, I guess, he was asking for. And then she just hands him the drink menu and says, oh, that’s really funny and hands on the drink menu so that he can, you know, do something that she actually knows.   And she comes by and she gives him the drink and then she walks off and oh, okay. So as after this all kind of plays out, you realize, no. He was just flirting with her. They don’t really know each other. Am I right? I’m right about this. Right? 

Craig:  I have no idea. It was really unclear to me because they seem to have a familiarity. You know, it it seemed like we were gonna find out that they had some history, like maybe they had dated in the past and or or something. But No. And and they kind of seem to kind of remain familiar throughout, but there’s never anything to suggest that they knew each other. I don’t know. I don’t know if that was just the writing or I I I don’t know. I I I think you’re right.   I think that they don’t have a history, but it was it it remains unclear to me. 

Todd:  So as he’s sitting here, he’s talking with his friend and and his friend’s like, oh man, I’m in I’m in a whole bunch of trouble. And he’s like, well, how much trouble? It’s like 20 g’s trouble. It’s like 20 g’s. Oh man, That’s terrible. And he says, well, I might be able to help you out. And he says, well, you mean you have 20 g’s just lying around? And he says, no, but I have 1,200,000 I’m supposed to be getting, but I need this birth certificate or this death certificate. And if you can help me get it, you know, I guess I’ll share the money with you. At this point, I’m thinking, why does he think he needs any help getting this death Todd so he just needs to go get it.   So that’s as far as he knows, as far as anybody knows at this point, it’s as simple as him driving down there and getting this file. Now we’re also supposed to assume that this is, like, I guess, 1957 where people can’t just make phone calls or fax things or email things back and forth. He’s gotta physically go and pick this up. So anyway, he’s Sure. They have this deal. Okay. He’s gonna help him get the death certificate. So he drives, his bike to this place, and he goes in, and this is sure enough, it’s kind of a fully staffed office, but it’s clearly, pretty well dated in the technology that they’re using.   This woman’s, like, typing on a typewriter and stuff. And she goes and pulls the file out for his aunt, hands it to him. He looks through it and the car is about ready to leave, but then he sees that the one thing that’s missing from the file is the death certificate. It says it was remitted to the annex. So he goes back in and he’s like, what’s this mean? And the woman says, oh oh yeah yeah, the death certificate’s like in our annex. It’s like our top secret, super secret files, that are closed to the public, and it would need a court order in order to get this out. And he says, well, how long would that take? Oh, 5 or 6 months if we’re lucky. And, again Right.   I was thinking back too to the to the what the lawyer had said to him earlier, and the lawyer had suggested that without the deaths without the certificate, it would take him about 5 or 6 months, right, to get the money because they’d have 

Craig:  to go 

Todd:  through some other process. So right now, at this point in the story, he’s facing a potential 5 or 6 months to legitimately, either way, get this 1,200,000. Right? So Yeah. 

Craig:  Like Which which for 1 or which for 1 or $2,000,000 doesn’t really seem like that long to wait. 

Clip:  No. It doesn’t really. Like, what’s the point? 

Todd:  Okay. Alright. We’ll sit on it. We’ll go through the process. So 

Craig:  Right. I I was just gonna say I didn’t want you to skip by this too quickly because, like, I feel like this movie leaves a lot of loose ends that I I just didn’t understand because after Jacob asks this, I don’t know, receptionist lady all about this stuff, and she she gives him the info. Then as he tries as he leaves, she’s like, oh, wait a second, but he doesn’t, and he goes. And she’s filling out forms, and it looks like she’s filling out an admissions form for Jacob. Yeah. And, you know, she she she fills in his name and then, like, next to, you know, what is he suffering from or whatever, she said she fills in acute claustrophobia, which we’ve not heard anything about. It it comes up again later. But, like, it’s bizarre.   That never really comes up again, and it never really is explained. Like, is this whole hospital somehow supernaturally influenced? Like, are even the living people who are still working there, like, somehow I don’t know. It’s bizarre. It doesn’t really make any sense. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Clip:  And and 

Craig:  then you’re right. He runs into this guy who, in the IMDB credits, is just credited as the raggedy man. And and they just have this, like, little encounter, like, he backs up his car and I think he hits the guy’s cart or something, like, shopping cart. And then he just, like, he talks to the guy briefly, and that’s just it. And I’m thinking, well, this guy’s gonna come back around. It’s gonna be significant in some way. And the guy does show up again later, but just for a second, and like it’s not explained. Like I don’t And Todd, you know, as we talk about it and we’re being kinda down on it, And and, you know, as we talk about it and we’re being kinda down on it, you know, we’re making it sound terrible.   And I I it’s not terrible. It it’s it’s very much on par with the kind of direct to video stuff you see. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  You know, the kind of stuff that pops up on Netflix that you’ve never heard of or the kind of stuff that pops up at the red box that you’ve never heard of. And and in that genre, you know, of those low budget movies that you’ve never heard of that you just pick because there’s literally nothing else, Mhmm. Within that genre, it’s actually pretty good. Like, the quality is pretty good compared to other movies of that type. 

Todd:  Yes. 

Craig:  Other low budget movies. So so folks, if you’re getting a really negative impression, I I I kinda wanna dispel that a little bit because it’s not awful. You know, I didn’t feel like I had wasted my time watching it, but be aware going in that it’s it’s certainly not a perfect movie, and and there are gonna be questions left hanging that are not gonna be answered for you. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. And if that’s something that really bothers you, then maybe avoid this movie. 

Todd:  Yeah. And that’s part of it. You know, it’s we’re we’re talking about it retrospectively. When you’re watching the movie, you know, these questions are being raised and you think, oh, okay. They’re building some suspense. Clearly, this is gonna be in something. Clearly, this is gonna be in something. Oh, what is this? I expect to to have that figured out by the end of the movie, But you’re right, those loose ends just kind of end up dangling.   And so the things that you at at first attribute to mystery and suspense turn out by the end of the film to like. 

Craig:  Yeah. This is like red herrings. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  It’s it’s Yeah. So but anyway, so so Jacob goes back to Dell and says, oh, I couldn’t get it or whatever. And Dell says, well, I’ve been doing some research, and there’s this guy online, named named Scott who’s super into Eloise. And as luck would have it, he lives in our hometown, so we just gotta run over to his house. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and that’s that scene is so funny because it’s so contrived. I mean, first of all, the 2 of them are sitting in in this man it’s a mansion of a house. Like, this is this is like Bruce Wayne’s banner is what the interior of this place looks like. And they’re sitting by a fireplace, and they’re obviously having a couple drinks. And it’s at this point in the I mean, you imagine that he called him up. He said, hey. Let’s go over.   Let’s meet at my house. They go in. They sit down. They pour some drinks. It’s nighttime. They’re chatting. And the whole reason for them to get together and talk, suddenly now they’re talking about it. You know? Right.   He didn’t just call him up and say, hey, dude. I couldn’t get the I couldn’t get the things. He says, so did you get the stuff? And he says, no. I didn’t. 

Clip:  Mhmm. So we’re waiting on. Look. People break in that place all the time just for fun. Yeah. But how are we gonna find the 

Craig:  an annex? 

Clip:  Of all places. That man got me crazy. I’ve been doing some research. Check this out. 

Todd:  And, again, the fact that Dell has done research on this place is totally unnecessary because as far as Dell and anybody knows, all that Jacob had to do was drive to the office and get the certificate. 

Craig:  That’s right. 

Todd:  So there’d be no reason for him to have done all this research. But anyway, he does. And at this point, I’m looking at the mansion around, and I’m thinking, alright. What is the rush? Okay. I guess maybe it it’s because you’re trying to help your friend out, but I thought, surely, you don’t really want this house anymore. I figured by the time you sell it, you’re gonna have a lot more than $20 in your bank account that you can hand over to your friend while you wait for that 1,200,000. But, you know, anyway, it it gets us moving in the store. 

Craig:  Yeah. It does. I mean and and, you know, when Dell says says he’s done this research, like, he’s pulling up things on the Internet and, like, there’s video, and it I’m not really sure how there would be video of this stuff if it was really that long ago, but whatever. But it shows, doctor Grice talking about his methods, and his methods are what they call confrontational therapy, which I have no idea if that’s a real thing or not. But basically, what it comes down to is forcing people to face their fears. And by that, what they mean is, okay. So if you’re afraid of spiders, we’re gonna put a lot of spiders on you. Or if you’re afraid of, you know, whatever it is, that you’re afraid of, we’re gonna make you confront that and that’s supposedly going to cure you.   Of course, it all just looks very sadistic and terrible. And medical practice at that time, we look back and some of it does seem sadistic and terrible. I don’t know. I assume these people had their patients’ best interests in mind, but I I don’t think that that’s what we’re supposed to think here. I think we’re supposed to think that this doctor, doctor Grice, is really just kind of a sadistic guy who wants to torture people, and and so that kinda sets us up for some stuff later too. Yep. But they they go to this expert’s house because, you know, he’s just down the street. And, the guy’s name is Scott, and he’s this young guy played by an actor named PJ Byrne.   I didn’t recognize him from anything, but it becomes clear very early on that he is in some way, I don’t know. It seems like he’s on the spectrum, like he’s autistic or has Asperger’s or something along those lines. And so they’re talking to him, and Scott is all excited because he wants to go, and he’s got, like, schematics for the for the buildings and stuff, so they’re gonna be able to find it. And then as luck would have it, Pia, the bartender shows up, and it turns out that she is Scott’s sister. And also coincidentally, it turns out that Pia and Scott’s mom was a nurse, at Eloise, and she just mysteriously left for work one day and never came home. And Pia says something like, so I was basically left to raise my brother. Now what we see later is that when the mother dies, Pia couldn’t have been more than, like, 6. So are we supposed to believe that 6 year old Pia raised her autistic brother? Like, 

Todd:  what’s his brother Okay. What’s her brother even born then? Because she seems older than him. Yeah. What? It’s it’s yeah. It’s pretty hilarious. I I also like the fact that they also feel the need to break into Scott’s house. Like, they what did they knock on the door, or was the door open and they’re they’re going through it before they he surprises them? 

Craig:  No. I don’t know. 

Clip:  You know what I’m talking about? There’s that whole 

Todd:  bit where their Your house 

Clip:  is as good as mine. 

Todd:  They’re prowling around in the dark in his house and they’re seeing all this creepy equipment. You know, it’s like, again, they don’t flip on a light or anything, but they’ve got their flashlights and there’s like, oh, there’s some stuff in jars. Oh, here’s this creepy medical equipment. What’s going on? And then Scott, like, has been hiding in the corner this whole time and, like, flips on a light behind a, like, a mannequin or something in a wheelchair and, like like, he planned this surprise for them. It was again, it was just another another odd setup for one of those pretty standard go through the creepy house and then be surprised kinda moments, you know. 

Craig:  Well, it’s just like let’s create tension here just because, like it’s not really necessary like they could have just knocked on the door, but instead let’s have people creeping around in the shadows. And another thing, you know, again, we talked about how it seems like Jacob and Pia had history. And, like, it almost feels like that here too because when Pia comes in and she’s like, what are you doing? Why are you talking to my brother? And blah blah blah. And Dell kind of says, oh, we just need him to take us to the hospital. And she’s like, oh, no. Absolutely not. And and Jacob’s like, okay. Just a second.   And he takes her out in the hallway, and he’s like, but I really need to get in there. And she’s like, okay. Alright. I guess if you really need to It’s a 

Todd:  planned period assessment. Yeah. 

Craig:  But but nothing better happened to him, and I’m gonna come along to make sure nothing happens. Like, she just she just gives in immediately. It’s kinda silly. And so they go. I mean and and I guess that’s one good thing about the movie is that it keeps moving. You know, it’s it’s not boring. It’s not slow. It does keep moving.   As unrealistic as that may be, The action keeps going, and I do appreciate that. 

Todd:  But also by this point, we kind of know what’s gonna happen. We’ve got all the characters that we heard about before. Altogether, and we know that Jacob’s gonna be missing. Dell’s gonna be dead. Scott’s gonna be dead, and Pia’s gonna be in the mental or wherever, you know, answering questions. So it’s also like a little, you know? And if there were a a point by the end of the movie for revealing all that early on, it it would have been okay. But as it turns out, it’s just what happens. 

Craig:  So Right. And and and so they they go right away. And I don’t even remember what the context of this is, but, like, it’s one of those things where in literature, you would just call it total crap because it’s so obvious. Like, when when 

Todd:  when That’s a technical term, teacher, man. 

Craig:  Exactly. Total crap. Because when foreshadowing is so obvious, like, it’s not even really foreshadowing, you know, like, you shouldn’t be able to figure out what’s going to happen immediately. That that removes all sense of mystery. And, I I I feel like as as they’re walking to this place and they get there right away and they’re just walking around outside, I feel like maybe they have to go inside somewhere that’s dark and and and Jacob is uncomfortable 

Clip:  going in there. And it You okay? Yeah. Hi, just a little class of COVID. 

Craig:  You know, no big deal. 

Clip:  Everybody’s afraid of something. I don’t do needles. Oh, I wouldn’t say afraid necessarily. I’m like, oh, well, 

Craig:  then I’m sure claustrophobia and needles will never come up in this movie about conversion therapy. Exactly. 

Todd:  That is exactly what 

Craig:  we do. Me in there. Oh, gosh. Yeah. And and once they get in there, then if you’ve seen a haunted insane asylum movie, you’ve seen it for 

Clip:  a year on pretty much. You really have because 

Todd:  I don’t know. It’s not even as exciting as one of those because it never 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Every scene that kinda hap I never got chills, like, once in this movie. I never Not no. 

Craig:  Not really. 

Todd:  And I was watching the dark in an apartment, not at work on you on YouTube at my desk. Yeah. But, like, you know, they’re going through the the insane asylum and, you know, this was filmed on location in Eloise, and I thought that was cool. I knew it in advance. 

Craig:  Me too. 

Todd:  But honestly, they could have been anywhere because it’s so dark and they’re just shining lights around. You’re just seeing staircases and occasional flashes of wall and stuff. And Scott has this one of these things. I actually kinda like the character of Scott, and I love that scene Me too. Where they were introduced to him because he’s, like, flipping off the walls like a giddy schoolboy about going in there, and he’s running around the room, and he’s, like 

Clip:  and and they used the first x-ray was developed there, 

Todd:  and he, like, pulls an x-ray off the shelf, and he’s, like, oh, yeah. 

Clip:  And then they used to experiment with 

Todd:  this, and he’d go over and, like, get a tool off, and and it’s, like, they’re all they’re all looking at each other like this guy is crazy. I can’t believe we’re going along with them. And it reminded me a lot of the original Independence Day. You remember the guy who’s, like, super on u f about UFOs? Yeah. Yeah. The guy who played data or whatever, and he’s just like so giddy and excited that all of this stuff that he had been learning and all these conspiracy theories and stuff that he’d been figuring out over the years are finally coming you know, to life and becoming useful. And so, like, that was really neat about Scott, and he’s got this phone, a cell phone with a camera in it that he said he removed the UV filter from it so that the phone only shoots UV, which is total BS. It shoots, like, everything and also UV, if you remove the UV filter from it.   But, anyway Yeah. 

Craig:  It’s dumb. Basically, he’s trying to he he’s trying to justify the fact that we’re gonna see him using this infrared camera on his, like, Nokia. 

Clip:  Oh my god. That’s right. 

Craig:  And and this, you know, the the whole I I guess there’s, like 20 minutes when they’re in there just, like, looking around and, like, they find spooky pictures of the patients and, they they find all this weird stuff like babies in formaldehyde in jars, and, they find this place where apparently they’ve kept, all of the ashes from the crematorium. And, Scott spills one of the jars of ashes, and it, like, smokes mysteriously. Like, I don’t know if we’re supposed to think that that, like, unlocked something. 

Clip:  I know. I was, like, 

Todd:  I was thinking sorority babes in the slime ball bowl o rama. So does that Oh, yeah. I was like, oh, no. Totally. Over the the bowling trophy of the insane asylum. You know? 

Clip:  He he let 

Todd:  his spirit loose. But it’s really not clear, like, at the end of the day if that had any significance because there’s so many of these little things that just kinda happen that that are just in there. Right. And even his camera, like barely, like he’s running around with it and he is holding it up and you kinda see images. And then a little later on as he’s holding it up more and more in a room, he’s seeing more. It looks like I mean, if you were looking at this camera, you’d be freaking out because you see movement of figures in front of you that are clearly not there. Yet he’s just like excited about it. Right? He’s just like, oh, like he’s moving it around like, oh, I can see the ghosts.   I can see the ghosts. 

Craig:  But he doesn’t say anything to anybody. No. Like he just kind of giggles excitedly so nobody else knows what’s going on. And like they’re walking along in the hospital and just weird things are happening like, a a security monitor comes on as they walk by it. Of course, they don’t see it. But, like, when the security monitor comes on, it looks like things are happening around them as though it’s ghostly stuff or stuff that happened in the past and and like we’re seeing it through the monitor. And it is spooky And and I I have to say there was at one point, like, Dell drops the watch that he stole from Jacob’s dad, and when he drops the watch, I don’t know if, like, the watch breaks, but it looks like time Todd, and then there’s a flashback, and we see, you know, it’s it’s either black and white or like sepia tones or something, and and we see orderlies beating up a guy, and then, the the guy in the flashback or whatever it is grabs the watch, so it’s like these different time periods are existing concurrently, or or maybe it’s just all haunting stuff. It it was a little reminiscent to me of the remake of 13 Ghosts.   And and while I don’t think that’s a great movie by any stretch of the imagination, I actually mean that as a compliment. Like, it was kinda it was spooky and it was kind of cool stuff going on, but without any explanation, without, you know, we don’t know, is this place haunted all the time? Is it haunted on just this particular day because Scott knocked over the ashes? What they’re looking for, of course, are those files, and there’s lots of scenes of them just going through files, which is real exciting. But eventually eventually, they find it, which again is absolutely impossible. You know? Like, this is just this horribly rundown place with, like, millions of file cabinets and but eventually they find it. And when they pull it out, they’re like, oh, here it is. They find the death certificate and they’re like So 

Clip:  she died May 5th? Yeah. Yeah. It’s 30 years ago. 

Craig:  To the day. 

Todd:  Exactly. And it’s it’s the Indiana it’s the Indiana Jones Arc storage, warehouse of record rooms that they have. I mean, it is literally like a giant warehouse with filing cabinets in it. And and, of course, it’s in this completely abandoned building, and then everything’s in complete disarray. And I’m looking at it, and I’m thinking, these are the top secret sealed documents that should be 

Craig:  No wonder you need a court order to get them. Like 

Todd:  It’s probably just 

Craig:  for safety reasons. 6 months to find 

Clip:  it. Right? 

Todd:  Oh my god. Yeah. It’s pretty silly. And you’re right. And and while they’re looking at records and people are looking at records, everybody’s just like Scottie wanders off. And so she starts looking for him, and it’s just a whole big excuse for them to waste a lot of time. It it it ceases to become about looking for the records except for Jacob. And everybody else is just just wandering around either exploring or looking for someone else.   Or, oh, I heard something. What was that? 

Craig:  Well, I mean, it it makes a little bit of sense, I suppose, because Scott is so interested in the history, and so it makes and, you know, he his mind wanders. So it makes sense that he would be kind of exploring. That’s fine. And Dell, we know he’s a crook, so it kinda makes sense that he would be looting, which is basically what he does. 

Todd:  I guess that makes sense. 

Craig:  Yeah. And and Scott, eventually, he kinda sees a, you know, a ghost or apparition through his little camera, and he he finds a picture of himself, and it appear it looks like a picture of him being lobotomized. And then he turns around, and there’s, like, this ghost orderly, and he gets scared. And he, like, backs up, and then he falls through the floor, like, down several stories through the floor onto a gurney. And then there are these I don’t wanna say spectral because it’s not like they look like ghosts. You know? It’s just actors. You know? But apparently, I guess he has fallen 

Clip:  Through time. 

Craig:  Back in time. Yeah. Right? Or or or it you know, into this spectral realm, and they take him into this room, and they lobotomize him. The the doctor, the bad doctor, doctor Grice, does a frontal lobotomy. And that’s it. Like, Scott’s dead now. 

Todd:  It’s honestly not even that scary. I don’t know. I guess it’s just because, again, it’s like he’s fallen through time. And so here he is. He’s pushed into the room. They do this phlebotomy on him. And I guess at some point, he dropped his phone camera, infrared camera thing. And as he’s being lobotomized, we’re seeing images in the camera and the last image is okay.   You know, he gets it pounded through his eye or whatever and an orderly or whoever it is, you know, attending to the surgery yanks it out of his eye. But then we see the same scene through the camera and it’s just Scott. It’s it looks like Scott pulling it out of his own eye. Like he himself, like, lobotomized himself, like he was, you know, having these delusions or whatever, the ghosts and whatnot were in his mind. But in the at the end of the day, the only person in the room was actually him. But that also doesn’t make any sense because the camera’s supposed to show ghosts. It’s not supposed to show the absence of ghosts. So I was kind of confused.   I was thinking, oh, is this happening in his mind and there are no ghosts there and that’s what it’s trying to tell us? 

Craig:  Yeah. And as it turns out, that doesn’t appear to be the case. You know, it appears to be the case that the, you know, physically manipulate their environment. Yeah. It’s clunky. But it like you said, in the moment, you just don’t care. Like, you just kinda go along with it. Whatever.   Okay. You know, what’s gonna happen next? And what happens next is, Del is looting basically and he kind of finds a nurse’s station or something and he finds a medicine cabinet, but he has to break the glass to get into the medicine cabinet. And he does and he’s pulling out all the medicine, but then he realizes that he’s cut his hand pretty badly, in breaking the cabinet. And so I guess he thinks that whatever medicine is in the cabinet must be an antiseptic. 

Todd:  Without reading it. You’re right. 

Craig:  So he just pours this jar onto his hand and and then the camera, closes up on it, and it’s LSD. 

Todd:  It’s it’s a it’s a jar of lick of LSD, and he just pours it on his hand. 

Craig:  Which would be probably, like, 100 of doses Oh my Todd. That he’s pouring into a flesh wound. And, so then he goes, okay. So Pia and, Jacob have found the records. They wanna get out of there. They’re looking around. They can’t find Scott. They’re looking for Scott.   They eventually find Dell. And Dell’s there and it only takes a few seconds before he starts to freak out. And again, it’s the whole, you know, is he is Dell now seeing ghosts because he’s tripping on LSD or the ghosts really there? Who knows? Who cares? But he starts seeing ghosts and he freaks out and he pulls out a gun and just starts shooting haphazardly everywhere. And, he takes off running. Pia and Jacob, run off trying to find him, but they can’t find him, and Dell ends up in this room. And I don’t even remember how this happens. The room floods. 

Clip:  Oh my god. 

Craig:  Oh god. I’ve somehow 

Todd:  I don’t know. Will he see he stumbles across a giant glowing cross or or or and a bunch of people like inmates and we’re seeing visions. And all of this that we’ve been talking about with Dell and everything that we talked about with, with, Scotty has actually been happening concurrently. Like, it’s been cutting between these two things. And so we’re an hour into the movie, and it feels like we’ve had nothing but build up to this point. Like, I was waiting for, you know, the ax to fall, and it just took so long. It took so long for delta for for Scotty to finally get lobotomized and for Del to finally drown in this flooding room which was totally unclear. You feel like you’re getting built up, like you you still even when these two deaths happen, you still don’t know exactly what’s going on, and we’re already like an hour into the movie and we don’t have a clear sense, you know, of, of what we’re looking out for.   You know what I mean? Yeah. 

Craig:  And and and I feel like it it’s at this point that it really kind of takes a turn and it just becomes full on supernatural. Pia and Jacob find Scottie, and Pia freaks out for a second. And and and then they then they just try to run away, and they, you know, all of a sudden, it’s like they’re thrust into the past. And all of these, orderlies and nurses and patients are around and, like, they witness, you know, something going on, like, in a day room. And I I couldn’t even really understand what was going on. Like, it’s like the orderlies and nurses were, like, dancing with the patients, and some of the patients were, like, nude or semi nude. And and and And that They’re like I That 

Todd:  scene is hilarious because it goes on forever. Like, the camera swings dramatically around the 2 of them as they’re all, like, back to back looking around the room, and the room is turned sepia Todd, and around them, there’s all this, you know, And, like, every stereotype that you could imagine of an inmate in an asylum. Bad teeth, crazy laughter, drawing weird paintings and pictures, missing limbs and deformed arms. Any one of these things is happening all around them. And it keeps switching between all these images and this camera continually whipping around them. And, Jacob’s, like, rubbing his eyes, like, what? And then it’s, like, goes back to 

Clip:  the guy painting creepy painting. And then we’re back 

Todd:  to him rubbing his eyes again going, what? Am I really seeing this? And he goes back and forth, like, 6 times. And I’m like, man, this scene has gone on for, like, 5 minutes. 

Craig:  And, ultimately, you know, it was just to kind of, I guess, show us the horrors of what was going on in the asylum. And and once they’ve witnessed it wide eyed for 5 minutes, they run outside. And we had seen earlier that, like, there were guards or cops patrolling or something. Like, they had had to hide at one point when they first got in there. And so Pia runs out. I feel like Jacob for some reason gets caught up inside there, but Pia runs out and there’s and when she runs out, she runs out into real time. And it’s raining and there’s a cop outside and she says, My friend’s in there. Can you please go get him? And, the cop runs inside and then all of a sudden, the rain stops and it flips back into old timey again.   And a cop comes out with Jacob, I think, and they end up being sat in the cop car for a little while before they end up going back in. And I’m sure there’s more to it than that. I don’t remember. It’s not really important. They get back in there, and this is where pieces start to fall into place, I guess. They end up in this, like, surgical theater. Pia is strapped down in there, and, doctor Geiss is talking about the conversion therapy. 

Clip:  We had 2 interesting case studies today. This patient suffers from an acute form of claustrophobia. The most severe and frightening of which is specifically the fear of waking up and discovering that you’re buried alive. So when his anesthesia wears off, he’ll find himself in a morgue drawer, forcing him to face his ultimate fear. Perhaps you’re wondering why he’s gagged. Well, when he comes to, we wouldn’t want him to wake the dead. 

Craig:  Pia is afraid of needles, so I’m gonna let the nurse take over because I’ve got an important birth to deal with. And then there’s a terribly disgusting scene of Pia just being stabbed repeatedly with these huge needles. And I say stabbed, they’re stabbing her in the arm, but it’s gross. Like, I I I guess I have to give it some, credit for the effects here because I was cringing at this point. I don’t like needles either. Oh, yeah. 

Clip:  And, you 

Craig:  know, they’re just they’re stabbing these huge needles into her arm, and and it looks pretty real. It’s it’s pretty good. 

Todd:  You know, it looks like this might be a scene an actual scene from the past that they’re reliving because it it occasionally goes up to the, you know, the students who are up in the theater watching this, and they’re 1 by 1 kind of getting up and walking out disgusted. 

Clip:  Right. 

Todd:  Like like, this was maybe an actual demonstration. And so I was thinking, again, at this point, it you say it becomes totally supernatural. I felt like the movie became like a time travel movie 

Craig:  because Yeah. It’s weird. 

Todd:  The it’s it’s not like it’s going back and forth between these flashbacks and the real world at this point. It’s all flashback supernatural that they’re in, and she manages to escape. She ends up yanking her restraints out of the chair, grabs a needle, stabs a nurse, pushes another one down, and runs out. And then so so we’re in this, right, the supernatural world, that ghostly world that they’re supposed to be in. And she, like, is in the hallway of this asylum, and they’re it’s really busy. There are people going back and forth, and she grabs a nurse’s uniform and goes into the toilet and changes, and now she’s able to sneak around the ghosts by being dressed as a nurse and acting normal. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  It’s just tonally, it it just totally changes to this, like, sneaky heist kind of movie. 

Craig:  Yep. Yep. And and the thing that I was thinking about, you know, like, she’s running around. She’s dressed as the nurse, whatever. Eventually, she gets Jacob out of the morgue, and they’re both kind of running around observing what’s happening, and we see some important things. But the whole time, I was thinking, oh, so I guess she’s just fine now after, like, beating the needles. Totally brutalized with the she’s fine. She’s over it.   Like, her arms are cool. She can push her on a wheelchair. No big deal. But okay. So so now they’re they’re both out, and they’re just kind of observing what’s going on. They see, Jacob’s aunt, or she’s, like, in a a delivery room. And that was another thing. Like, they had said earlier that Pia’s mom had worked in the nursery, and I’m like, why do they need a nursery in an insane asylum? Like, this doesn’t even make sense.   Now historically, the real Eloise was originally a poor house, and then it became an asylum, and then it was also a hospital. So I guess fine in the hospital part, they had a nursery or whatever. Mhmm. But, this woman is, giving birth, and we know that it’s Jacob’s aunt because we’ve seen her before, 

Clip:  Oh, look 

Craig:  at all the pieces falling falling together. Mhmm. And then this nurse who we’ve seen in pictures, we know is Pia’s mom. Oh, look at all the pieces falling falling together. 

Todd:  Could be 

Craig:  immediately. Goes in there. And at that point, like, I I feel like Jacob just figures this out somehow easily that this woman was not really his aunt. It was really his mother, and he had been born in there. And, like, he goes in and has a heartwarming moment with her before she dies, but then as the nurse is coming in, like, he slips under the bed or something. And, the the nurse I feel like Pia’s mom or no, excuse me. Jacob’s mom whispers something to Pia’s mom, and then Pia’s mom says, don’t worry, Jen. This is one baby who won’t grow up in this place.   I don’t care who his father is. I’ll call your brother right now. And then she leaves, and we see that Jacob’s under the bed, and we see that Genevieve is bleeding out, and blood drips through the mattress because, you know, why wouldn’t it? So much blood. Into Jacob’s mouth. 

Todd:  Did did you notice that 

Craig:  that the blood dripped into his mouth? Doctor. 

Clip:  Well, I’ll tell you 

Todd:  I’ll tell you what I noticed was that this guy who’s claustrophobic seem to have no problem hiding under the bed. 

Craig:  Oh, Todd. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So then, Genevieve dies and the nurse puts the baby in this box. Oh, we’ve seen this box before. It’s the box from earlier on. And she she pokes holes in the box before she puts them in there and she puts the baby in there and she she, Pia apparently had been at work with her mom that day.   The brother Scott had said, sometimes mom took you to work. Okay? So we remember that. And, so she puts the baby in this box and she she takes the hair bow out of Pia’s hair. Remember? Told you, ribbon, important. And she, ties up the box and she gives it to Pia and she says, There’s gonna be a man outside waiting. Take this box out to him. Adult Jacob and Pia, I I I don’t know why, but Jacob decides that he needs to start the fire, the fire that that that took down Eloise. And so he starts it and they they try to run out and Pia gets out and Pia sees herself as a young child give the box to Jacob’s dad.   But for whatever reason, Jacob gets grabbed by an orderly and pulled back in. And then immediately, it pops back into the present. And there are real life, you know, real time firefighters there and real time cops there, and Pia’s like, my friend’s still in there. You gotta go in him. She go get him. She tries to run back in, but they won’t, let her in. And then we cut back to the bookend. 

Todd:  Mhmm. And here we are. 

Craig:  And here we are. And 

Todd:  and that’s it. I mean, the the bookend doesn’t tell you anything. The detective just throws his arms up in the air and says, what really happened to Jacob in that fire yesterday? She doesn’t respond. He’s like, alright. He he leaves the room. She opens up the box, and she goes through the photos, flicks through flicks through a bunch of drawings of all of them Yeah. And I’m not sure where those came from. 

Craig:  I’m not either. Why would there have been drawings of them in that box or in that file? Like like, the Genevieve, the mom had been, like, psychic and had had had sketched them all, you know, back in her day. 

Todd:  I feel like it was supposed to be like some because we saw a drawing similar to that when in during that weird scene where they were, you know, the room was spinning around them and they saw all the, crazy people drawing and painting it. But, again, it it would be way too supernatural for, you know, something like that to be there now in this scene. It it just it it it would have more significance, and she’s just kinda tossing them in the box as she’s as we’re hearing the voices of previous dialogue that was said in the movie as though it were significant, and it’s really not. And then we get a a a closing shot, basically, of Jacob who’s back. Apparently, when he was pulled into the building, he was pulled, you know, back into the past, and he’s back in his morgue spot, you know, screaming in his box. And the doctor, is back in his asylum, and a nurse comes by with a certificate. Is it an an it’s like a death certificate or something? 

Craig:  I think it’s a birth certificate. 

Todd:  But oh, yeah. It’s got his name on it, Jacob’s name on it, and the doctor circles born alive but now dead. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And he hands it back to her, and she smiles, and he walks up the stairs, and then we get then we get, this film is dedicated to the memory of Eloise’s former patients, their their families, and the staff of Eloise. This 

Craig:  Isn’t that nice? 

Todd:  This heartwarming tale is dedicated to all the wonderful people who made this happen. 

Clip:  Like, what? And then 

Craig:  and then I’m sure that the I’m sure that the families are are very thankful. 

Clip:  I’m sure they are, 

Todd:  especially when you wait through the credits. Did you wait through the credits? No. At the very end, I kid you not, at the very end, there’s a notice. It’s back where it says no animals were harmed, you know, in the making of this picture. That far end of the credits, it says, during the operation of the Eloise Hospital complex as a sanitarium and hospital, it was considered one of the foremost treatment centers in the world. It was well known and respected for its ethical and charitable treatments of its residents. While Eloise is an actual place, the events and characters that were portrayed in this picture are fictional. The producers acknowledge that this fictional storyline does not reflect any method of treatment or care that was provided by the faculty during the time that it was operating as a functioning sanatorium or hospital. 

Craig:  So That’s hilarious. What a lovely tribute. 

Todd:  As a tribute to the hardworking staff of this well respected institution, we made up a bullshit story about a doctor who terrorized and mutilated patients. 

Craig:  Oh, gosh. That’s funny. 

Todd:  Oh, my gosh. 

Craig:  Oh, it’s funny. I have had a really good time goofing on this movie with you. I really have. It’s been a lot of fun. It’s been some good laughs. But honestly, folks, the movie 

Todd:  It’s terrible. 

Craig:  Has a relatively low budget horror movie. It’s not that bad, you know? I I didn’t I I don’t regret watching it, you know? It it it held my interest for the hour and a half. The acting was not bad at all. It was actually pretty good. The the the cinematography was okay, pretty Todd, some decent effects, some interesting things going on. It I have a feeling that it didn’t look or feel as cheap as it probably actually was. And so I have to give it some credit for that. 

Todd:  Yeah. I’m with you on that too. We’ve seen so much worse, and, it’s Oh, yeah. It it it the the worst thing you could say about it is it’s kinda pedestrian. 

Craig:  Sure. 

Todd:  The except for the fact that Eloise just had clearly had a lot of great material to mind. I mean, what a fantastic location and a great hospital history. Yeah. Even if it was a whole total bullshit story about it. 

Craig:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  It’s kind of a letdown in that way, you know, that it ended up being kinda what it was. But I enjoyed watching it Todd, and I didn’t walk out of it really angry or upset. It just it just felt like kind of a clunky mess. 

Craig:  Yeah. And and really, if anything, it piqued my interest in the actual history. Like, I’m I’m legitimately interested in going and reading more about this place because it just seems like such a fascinating place. So I don’t know. Let’s go, Craig. Todd trip. 

Clip:  Right. I would go. 

Craig:  I would totally check it out. I think it would be neat because I I guess there’s only, like, 1 or 2 buildings that still stand, but they’re still operational. Now they’re not hospitals or anything anymore. They’ve housed businesses and, like, law offices and things. But, there’s a couple of the original buildings still standing where they filmed this, and I guess the ruins of some of the buildings are still there too. And, it it would be kind of a cool place if you happened to be in Michigan and happened to be in that area. You know, such a such a big place obviously affected a lot of people, a lot of history there. That’s interesting.   So I at least appreciate the movie for bringing that into my consciousness, and I probably will, look into it a little bit more. Don’t worry, I won’t bore you with it. But but, for me, I took that away from it. I I did not like the movie. I didn’t love it. I didn’t think it was great. I I thought it was fine. You know? It was entertaining.   Lots of loose ends, lots of plot holes, but, not boring, quick paced. Horror fans, I I would recommend it. You you’re looking for something to watch on a Saturday night, you can’t find something else, go to the red box, pick up Eloise. I I don’t think that you’ll be terribly disappointed. 

Todd:  Yeah. But, I mean, were you ever scared? I mean, was was No. No. Remotely scary about this to you? The needles 

Craig:  The needles were freaky. 

Todd:  That was freaky. Yeah. And especially if you don’t have a thing for needles, that would scare the heck out of you. Who has 

Craig:  the thing for needles? 

Clip:  That’s true. 

Todd:  Who who wants some people? 

Clip:  Stabbed you really. I guess. 

Todd:  I I’ll say one thing, you know, it it it kind of fell short of some interesting directions that coulda gone in that I thought by the end of the movie that they were trying to imply somehow that these characters had a role in their own history. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Todd:  At the point which it he is the one who started that fire in 1980, you know. Yep. He has that moment with his mother. You can almost imagine his mother, you know, seeing him as a ghost and but that wouldn’t make any and and then even when the doctor, you know, signs that certificate saying, but now dead, but it it doesn’t. I mean, it can’t it can’t be that way because that would then mean that Jacob now doesn’t exist. You know, it’s it would it would have to be one of these weird paradoxes that wouldn’t play out. Right. You know, in the in the in the bookend where she’s, PS, still knows about Jacob and all that.   So that was 

Craig:  Right. And and because the movie is so new and I think it’s going to end up being so obscure, we’ll probably never know what the original intentions are. I I I think that you’re right that that that is interesting and you could read that in that they had some impact on their own history. And maybe there was more of that intended and and for whatever reason, it just and we’ll probably never know, sadly. 

Todd:  The secrets of Eloise are gonna remain locked up forever. 

Craig:  The secrets of Eloese. Yeah. I I do think that there was some potential that was not fully utilized, but, I didn’t hate it. It it was it was what it was, and it was fine, and it was entertaining at work for an hour and a half when I had nothing else to do. And, so if you’re if you ever find yourself at work High pin LOE. High praise 

Todd:  from 2 guys in a chainsaw. That’s right. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us on iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play. You can also find us on Facebook where we encourage you to let us know what you thought of this film, what you thought of our assessment of it, and, also, let us know what other movies you’d like us to see. We do requests fairly often on this show. Until next time.   I’m Todd 

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

R.I.P Adam West. You may not have been drug down into the grave by a zombie, but we miss you nevertheless. This turkey – one of his few horror films – has to be one of the absolute best so-bad-it’s-good horror flops.

Once you’re done hearing us riff on it, head over to Netflix for the MST3K episode.

Episode 85, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig. Sadly, recently, we lost another good person. Adam West died at the, ripe old age of how old was he, Craig? Oh, gosh. 

Craig:  I don’t know. He was 

Todd:  in his eighties, wasn’t he? In his eighties, he lived a long and happy life, probably never really escaped the shadow of the film role he was most famous for, which is playing Batman in the absolutely corny and still loads of fun 1960’s version of Batman, both the TV show and the movies that subsequently came after. And, you know, the guy didn’t even seem to care. 

Craig:  No. No. I think he embraced it. 

Todd:  He loved it, and he should. It was fun. It was it was all good fun. 

Craig:  You know? I watched that when I was a kid, and, it was cornball. I don’t know if I realized how corny it was as a kid. It was it was a lot of fun. It felt kinda like a comic book. It was silly. It was family friendly. I loved it. A lot of people did, and I I think that he embraced that throughout his life.   And and kudos to him for doing so because, he he should have. 

Todd:  I actually think the TV show is even better as an adult. Like, I think it plays better because it’s just got so many crazy in jokes, and it’s so over the top goofy. And then remember he always had that bit where he and Robin would be climbing up the side of the of the building, you know, where where you like, all they did was tip the camera to the side and, like Yeah. You know? But then, like, somebody would pop out of the window as they were going up, and it was always some, like, cameo, like, some brief 10 second cameo by some famous person at the time. You remember that? Yeah. Yeah. That was a move that was a TV show back when TV shows knew how to have fun. And now about half of them are just kinda depressing.   Serious. Serious and depressing. Well, speaking of serious and depressing. No. Speaking let’s say speaking of having fun, we decided that we were going to pay tribute to Adam West and the only way we know how on this show, and that is to watch one of his crappy movies. And this movie is indeed crappy. It is a zombie nightmare. He did a few horror film.   Now you looked up he did probably 3 or 4 horror films. Right? None of them are really Yeah. But you chose zombie nightmare, Craig. You kinda honed in on that one. Tell me why. 

Craig:  Because I scrolled through his IMDB page and that was the one that sounded most like a horror movie. That’s that’s that was my, extensive selection process. Yeah, I don’t know. He did a few. In fact, there’s another one that I was interested Todd, and maybe we should have gone with this one, I don’t know. But he did a movie, I have no idea when. I don’t have anything written down about it, but he did a movie with Corey Feldman, a horror movie with Corey Feldman that, never came out. Like, it was never released, but it’s, available on YouTube in 10 parts.   And and and now, having watched the masterpiece that is zombie nightmare, I’m thinking maybe we should have gone with that one, but we didn’t. So as a tribute to Adam West, we will talk about this terrible Craig movie. My favorite thing really and just to get it right out there is that Adam West is top billed in this movie. Like, when the credits come up, it is starring Adam West. And I’m like, yeah, Adam West. Let’s do it. And then the guy doesn’t even show up until 45 minutes into this hour and a half 

Todd:  movie. Of course. 

Craig:  And then when he does and when he does finally show up, I’d be willing to bet that he filmed his role in, like, an afternoon. Like like, most of most of his scenes take place in this office. They, like, I he he gets out of that office for, like, 5 minutes at the end, but, I swear I have no idea how they got Adam West on this. Like, in my notes, at about the 45 minute mark, I have, finally, Adam West. And then 2 seconds later, my next note is, oh my Todd, Adam West. 

Todd:  What were you thinking? 

Craig:  Like, I guess a check’s a check. Right? 

Todd:  Yeah. So right? What what are you gonna do? You know? You’ve already cemented your legacy. You might as well start phoning it in. 

Craig:  Well, I mean Oh, man. 

Todd:  Even even with his admittedly, he’s always been a little corny. Like, in Sure. He he you know, I’ve always felt like Adam West. He has a great voice, but he he always feels like he’s in love with his voice. You know? He’s one of these guys that should be in radio. Like, if he would had been big, like, in the thirties, he would have been a kind of Orson Welles type figure on the radio. He’s got this great voice. He has this great delivery.   But then when he does it in in movies, it’s it’s always it’s it’s it’s a little Shatner esque, the way that he 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. 

Todd:  Really, rolls over his continents and just delivers with that kind of baritone voice, the lines that he does with such relish. It feels like his scenes in this movie take about twice as long as they need to just because his delivery is so labored. And I don’t mean labored as in you know? Not labored as in, it’s it’s drags and drags noticeably, but, again, it’s like a guy who’s kind of in love with his voice. 

Clip:  Frank, this Winston boy ran with   a bad crowd. High school kids, running red lights, getting drunk, smoking marijuana, you know,   the usual bad stuff. Murders a whole new ballgame. Till we get a line on this killer, I want the press to get nothing but misinformation. Otherwise, they’ll make this guy a a serial killer or a goddamn vigilante savior. 

Craig:  I think one of the things that I like the most about Adam West is that, you know, especially later in his career, he he had a great sense of humor, and and he appeared as himself in tons of TV shows and movies, and and he was really down with self deprecating humor and I think that’s great. I think it’s fantastic when you can poke fun at yourself and have a good sense of humor about yourself, and I really have a lot of admiration for him in that regard. So I almost feel like if he were here with us today, he would laugh right along with us at how crappy this movie is. 

Todd:  Oh, it’s Yeah. What about the 

Clip:  public’s right to know?   Hey. We’re concerned with the public’s right to live. I’ve spoken with the parents. They’ve told me they’re gonna cooperate. The last thing I want is for this kid’s gang to go looking for revenge.   Yeah. Well, whatever you say, Cap. I’ve got an APB out on anyone big enough to snap a person’s neck, and that ought to clear out, half the health clubs and all the high school teams.   Okay, Frank. I think you’re big enough to handle this by yourself.   Well, I’m going out now and buying some anabolic steroids.   Frank, let’s not have any more high school kids turn up dead. Understand? 

Todd:  I recognize this movie from the cover looking at the shelves. It was made 1987, And I actually bought this movie at some close out VHS sale at some movie rental place, and it sat on my shelves forever. And I never put it in, so I’m glad that we put it in this time. And, you know, the the the other thing about this film that’s really quite nice that that made it worth the watch for me was it’s Tiette Carrera’s first film. 

Craig:  Yeah. And I was that’s funny, you know, because now I I I’m sure at the time, nobody knew who she was. But now, you know, she’s 2nd gorgeous. I mean, she’s just stunningly beautiful. And, and in this, you know, she’s super young. She, I don’t know. She’s probably a teenager, maybe early twenties and it’s unmistakably her. But it’s nice to see that she evolved.   Beyond that. Right. You know, she of Beyonce. Right. You know, she of course, she did Wayne’s World and and she was really funny in that and and and the sequel Todd. And, then, I think my favorite role of hers, it was in True Lies with Arnold Schwarzenegger, nigger, which I’m not a huge, you know, Arnold Schwartz nigger type movie type of fan. But that’s a funny movie and, she’s funny in it. So, yeah, it it is cool to see her in this too even though she’s awful.   She is awful. Hello. 

Clip:  Bob, this is apes. I just heard it on the Craig. What are we gonna do?   Baby, calm down. What’s wrong?   What’s wrong? Jim’s dead, Bob. Didn’t you hear it on the radio? They found his body behind the drive in. He’s dead.   Hey, baby.   Just try   and relax.   Relax? Don’t you understand? We’re next. He’s killed Peter and Susie and Jim. We’re next. 

Todd:  But she’s Tia Carrera. I could watch her all day. Let’s just put it down. Cherry. And, oh, boy. So, let’s just dive in, shall we? This is gonna be fun. Let’s do it. 

Craig:  You start it because I’ll be interested to see because I feel like we could knock this one out in 20 minutes if 

Todd:  we really wanted to. I actually thought this is the one of the sad things that we live so far apart now because this would have been the perfect movie to see together, and that is that is, it it seems like a film best enjoyed with others than watching by yourself. 

Craig:  And that’s the thing. When when I first started watching it, you know okay. So it opens up with this scene of this, like, voodoo lady, like, resurrecting this guy in a coffin, it it and then these cheap, awful looking opening credits, which most of the opening credits are dedicated to telling what bands contributed music to the movie, Like, Motorhead is in it and, like, some other big, rock names or whatever. 

Todd:  Well, I don’t know how big they are. 

Craig:  Well, yeah, Motorhead was pretty big. Yes. Big. 

Todd:  And I was I was excited when Motorhead came up, and Motorhead contributed the song that played over the credits, and that sadly was it. Right. 

Craig:  And then it starts, and it’s like this this shot of, like, some kinda, like, baseball practice or something. And it looks like it was filmed on my dad’s giant camcorder from the eighties. And I was like, oh, no. This is this is gonna be just, absolutely awful. But the saddest part of it was that I realized not too far in that I had seen this movie before. And I was like, really? Like, how have I seen this movie before? I watched the whole thing, and I kept thinking, oh, my gosh. I remember this. I remember this.   And it’s because Mystery Science Theater 3000 did an episode on this movie. And I love that show. And of course they did because it’s a terrible movie. At first I was really thinking, Oh Craig, man, we’ve really gotten ourselves into something bad. I didn’t I thought, I don’t want to sit here and watch this. By the second half, it really became one of those movies that is so bad that it’s funny. And not because and not because it’s trying to be funny, but instead because it takes itself so seriously and it’s so bad that you just laugh and laugh because, oh my Todd, like It it’s hard to believe that they could have taken themselves seriously, but they clearly did. Like, they were clearly going for it.   Oh, and it’s just awful. 

Todd:  Yeah. Actually, everything about it is awful. It actually took me back to my college days. The first movie that I ever made, I shot with a bunch of friends at college. And about 10 minutes into this movie, I thought, if we had made a movie called zombie nightmare, I think it would’ve turned out like this Todd. 

Craig:  Yeah. Because, like, I I actually thought about that. I because I know you have made movies in the past. I’ve never had the privilege of working with you on 1, but I I really thought, like, I bet we could get a few of our friends together and make a movie of this quality in, like, a couple of days. 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. And this is it it it’s so funny because they only have, like, maybe 5 locations tops. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  And the framing and everything, like, the framing on this baseball ball game. It it it I don’t know what it takes a good 3 minutes showing us this baseball game, and it’s so boring. There’s 2 guys who look like they stepped out of Greece. Yeah. They’ve got, 

Craig:  like, the slick Oh, they’re so funny. Yeah. They get the the the greased hair. They’ve got the greased hair, and, like, they’re wearing, like, the skinny jeans and white t shirts. And, like, one of the guys okay. So they’re totally just 50 thugs. Like, I just called them thug 1 and thug 2 because I didn’t know who they were. And I have no idea.   It looked like it was set in the eighties, but then ever these 2 guys are, like, in fifties Craig. And one of them you you know how, like, in the fifties or at least in the the movies about the fifties, the thugs would like roll their cigarette packs up in their 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Their shirt sleeves? Well, this this guy, it’s like they just stuck something somewhat square shaped up his sleeve. Like, they didn’t even roll it up in there. And I’m like, is that his mic pack? Like, what’s happening? Oh, god. It was so dumb. Like, they were just trying so hard. And I but I didn’t really understand what they were going for. And like, the timeline doesn’t even these guys come back up again later. Thank God.   But like, it, like the timeline doesn’t even match up. Like, I don’t know. Like, these guys were just living in the fifties until the seventies or something. I don’t know. Oh, god. But but anyway, okay. So so these thug guys at the baseball practice, who knows why they’re there watching these little boys practice baseball, but they are, and and they see this random black girl, and they’re like, what’s she doing here? And so she leaves, and, they they follow her off like, let’s go start some trouble or something. 

Todd:  They literally say that. Yeah. That’s that’s one thing you see in this whole film is everybody is stating the obvious the entire time. They state exactly what they’re going to do, exactly what they’re thinking. All of their intentions, they completely lay them bare for everyone to hear. Okay. Okay. Cut it out right now.   Hey. The knight is young and so are we. So let’s get totally tanked up, go down to the dance at Lincoln, and we’ll pick up some sleazy chicks. 

Craig:  Yeah. Alright. 

Todd:  It’s great writing. It’s fantastic. 

Craig:  So oh, Todd. It’s so good. They follow this black girl off. Meanwhile, the baseball practice ends in this very nice guy who’s been leading the baseball practice, he’s this giant guy, turns out his name is Bill, I think. He and his family, his wife and his young son, they’re walking along and they see these 2 thugs attacking this girl in broad daylight. Like like in the middle of a neighborhood. 

Todd:  Like a suburban 

Craig:  Yeah. Like they’re just gonna rape this girl on the street corner in the middle of the day. Like, okay. So Bill, the friendly baseball coach, intercedes and, like, oh Todd. That’s the I I think this is my favorite thing about this movie is that any time there’s a fight scene, it is the most horrible, horrible fight scene you’ve ever seen in your life. It’s so it’s so choreographed and badly choreographed and you can see every fake punch. And, like, it’s like people are just kind of standing around waiting until it’s their turn to get punched. Like, 

Todd:  oh, god. 

Craig:  It’s so dumb. 

Todd:  My favorite part is when Bill picks up one of these guys in, like, a wrestling move. It’s like he’s gonna body slam them. He lifts them up, and he spins them around. 

Craig:  He spins him around so his feet hit the other guy. 

Todd:  That guy goes down. He throws him down, and then he just completely ignores them and turns his back on them completely and starts tending to the girl. Are you okay? And his wife and son are there watching. They’re like, is she okay? Is she okay? And of course, one of them jumps up and runs at Bill with a knife and stabs him as they both run away. It’s, you know, supposed to be this really dramatic moment, but it’s really hard to take it seriously at this point. 

Craig:  Right. Another thing, and and the reason that I bring this up is because it happens not once but twice in this movie. A girl gets attacked and somebody comes to her rescue and while the rescuer is dealing with the attacker, the girl who has been being attacked just lays there on the ground. Like, she doesn’t get up. She doesn’t help. She doesn’t run away. She’s just, like, laying there, like, oh, are you fighting? I I’ll 

Todd:  be here when you’re done. Later 

Craig:  and if it’ll if it had only happened once, it would have been hilarious. But it happens twice twice in the movie. The the girl just lays there. 

Todd:  She just 

Craig:  made it. Oh, boy. Alright. Oh my gosh. We gotta keep moving. We gotta keep moving. Otherwise, it’s gonna 

Todd:  be a long episode after all. So Yeah. It zooms in on the kid who’s staring at his dad who just got killed, and we do the dissolve to where, the kid is now an adult. And it’s we’re back at that baseball field, and now he is this massive, like, bulky bodybuilder looking guy named Todd. 

Craig:  Like a stand in for the Incredible Hulk or something. He’s huge. 

Todd:  Yeah. And this guy, did you look this guy up? John Riegle Thor. 

Craig:  Just a little bit. He’d only been in a few movies. Right? 

Todd:  Yeah. He had a like a heavy metal band and if you go to Wikipedia, John Thor better known as Thor is a bodybuilding champion, actor, songwriter, screenwriter, historian, vocalist, and musician. This guy. Wow. He was actually the 1st Canadian to win both mister Canada and mister USA titles in bodybuilding. Major. And and For him. The front runner for a heavy metal band called, wait for it, Thor.   And fun fact, he, at the same time was they were filming zombie nightmare, he was also apparently filming rock and roll nightmare, which is something on my list that we need to do sometime. It was another one of those covers that I was kinda curious about. Not the best actor in the world, though, but not terrible. Not the worst in the movie, by far. 

Craig:  Oh, well, I don’t know. 

Todd:  I mean He doesn’t have a lot to do. Let’s put it that way. I guess we never really get to see him flex his muscles as it were. 

Craig:  No. No. So now now he is like the neighborhood nice kid, and everybody likes him. And, he goes well, for he’s playing baseball with kids or whatever, and then he goes home, and the mom’s like 

Todd:  Hey, Ma. We won. 

Clip:  That’s nice, son.   You forgot the groceries.   Look. 

Todd:  You’re sorry, Ma. 

Clip:  I’ll go get 

Craig:  him right now. 

Clip:  Take a jacket. It looks like rain. 

Todd:  Okay. Thanks, man. 

Clip:  I’ll be back soon. Okay? 

Craig:  You say he’s not the worst in this movie. Come on. Give the guy a little credit. He’s pretty darned off. Oh, I will 

Todd:  give him credit for being awful. He’s not the worst. He’s not the best. I didn’t say he was the best. But also the the right the dialogue is absolutely crappy. Like, nobody could make any of this dialogue work. Nobody nobody in the Midwest makes this dialogue work, unfortunately. Yeah.   You’re right. 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, god. It’s great. 

Todd:  It’s so bad. 

Craig:  Well well, we well, we also see then okay. They cut to this scene of, like, these eighties punks then they’re driving around drunk. And then we see, Tom, the big guy, is getting groceries for his mom and he forgets, like, his wheat germ or something. So he has to go back to the back of the store. 

Todd:  I’m sorry. You can’t you can’t brush over that. We’re at a gro we’re at what is supposed to be the grocery store, which is really more like a corner convenience store. And the guy 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Behind the counter is doing the worst Italian accent ever. He sounds like Mario from Super Mario 64. He’s like 

Clip:  That’d be all, Tony.   Have you got the provolone? Todd, when   I forget how much of my life provolone. Yeah? 

Todd:  How 

Clip:  is your new job working out?   Well, it’s not bad, sir. Except they want me to cut my hair.   Hey, Tony, you you 

Todd:  cut the 

Clip:  hair, you lose the strength. No? 

Todd:  Anything else? 

Clip:  Wait a minute. I forgot my wheelchair.   I’m in the back. Run the ladder. 

Todd:  Okay. Thanks, man. Mama Mia. Tom. Yeah. Tell me how your mother is doing. 

Craig:  Did you remember the provolone? 

Todd:  Oh, but could I forget the provolone? I know how much of your mama likes it. 

Craig:  We germ? Well, he’s a big guy. I mean, he I don’t know. I mean, I Yes. Bodybuilders. Yep. Something, I guess. 

Todd:  Bodybuilding thing. Yeah. Well, anyways Yeah. So he he goes 

Craig:  in the back. He goes in the back, and a couple of thugs come in to rob the store. And one of the thugs puts the gun in the owner’s face. And he’s like, 

Todd:  all your money sucker. You want Todd. My mind. Oh. 

Craig:  But And then, and then and then Tony saves the day. And again, one of the worst fight scenes you’ve ever, ever seen. And then, Todd just kicks the guys out of the store, like, get out of here, you dirty hoodlums. Like, I don’t ever wanna see your face around here again. And then and then Tony, the the nice guy that everybody loves, who carries a baseball bat with him everywhere he goes, walks out into the street and gets run down by the drunken eighties punks, and he’s dead. And, the shop owner runs out and literally, like, there are so many things that I have written down. Like, I would pause the movie to write it down because the the lines were so good. Like, he runs out and this kid’s dead in the street and he goes, Tony, who could have done this terrible thing? 

Clip:  Oh, just 

Craig:  And then they don’t they don’t call the ambulance or the police or anything. No. They don’t call anybody. They just 

Todd:  they just pick up his dead body 

Craig:  and carry it to his mom’s house. Yes. And, the mom’s like, oh no. And and there’s some guy there and and she says, do you know Molly McKimbe? And he’s like, you mean that crazy lady who lives down the street? She’s like, Yeah, go get her. And the shop owner’s like, What do you want with that crazy Haitian? And she’s like, She owes me a favor. And it took me a second to realize that the crazy Haitian was the black girl from the beginning. Yeah. And that’s why she owes this lady a favor.   But when this lady shows up Oh my gosh. It it it was it’s it’s it’s genius. Like like 

Todd:  That’s one way to find it. I 

Craig:  if you were trying to make a terrible movie, like, this is what you would do. They bring in this lady, this black lady, and I can’t even begin to describe how she talks. 

Todd:  Quiet. 

Clip:  Believer. She knows that whole body walk and begin deeper. What your body’s skin on. Vengeance for us wants this. You go to mister Cabrietti’s house. 

Todd:  Well, she’s she’s got that, like, warbly accent, but then it changes depending on the scene. Like, sometimes, like, it’s not even consistent all across the board. Terrible acting. I her premature graying too was kinda weird. I just like you said, I couldn’t get a beat on the timeline of any of these people because Tony seems fairly young, and she would have been just a little bit older than him, but she’s got gray hair and seems like an older woman. And and then it turns out there’s another one of these kids as an adult, and he doesn’t he seems even older. It just none of that really works. None of that really works as far as the timeline goes. 

Craig:  We jump back to the beginning scene scene that we saw before, with her resurrecting the zombie, and it turns out that the zombie is Tom. But, like, this whole ritual takes place. I have no idea where. 

Todd:  I’m like They’re candles. Just like lots. The candle 

Craig:  shop. I don’t think 

Todd:  it was a candle shop. 

Craig:  It had to have been. That must have been her day job. And there must have, like, in her day job store, there must be, like, a coffin. I I swear, I’m like, where did this fucking coffin come from? Like, why is all of it she just has a coffin overlooking the hills? 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Okay. So she brings him to life and then, like, it it’s it’s horrible. Like, he sits up like, like, this stupid, stupid zombie sound, and she hands him the baseball bat. And then I’m like, yes. Zombie with a baseball bat. Like, now we’re talking. Here we go. 

Todd:  That’s right. 

Craig:  And then that okay. And so then the rest of the movie is a revenge plot where this reanimated zombie is, going after all these kids that that killed him and he ends up, we can talk about the specifics if you want, I don’t know, but he picks them off, 1 by 1. Yeah, and like over the course of several days, and something that I also didn’t understand was did the zombie lady have to do this ritual every night? Because it appears that she does it several times Well, it appears throughout the course of the movie. 

Todd:  Yeah. Or she’s just holding down the fort or something, like she’s gotta guard her candles during the day? Because you’re right. It always cuts back to back to her, and it’s apparently night, and we still got all these candles, and nothing has changed. And the guy is either back, or he’s coming back out of the coffin again. It is it like he has to return to the coffin every night? It’s it’s kind of unclear. But as inept as this movie is, just to give you an idea, like, they don’t even really follow through on some of the basics, such as they show us these these these punk kids. Right? These punk kids who ran him over. And shortly after he’s run over, it does cut back to a scene of them where they’ve pulled over and they get out of the car, and they’re kinda fretting about what they did.   And everyone is is kind of upset about it, except for the the leader guy, Jimbo. Jim Jim. Jim, man. Who’s this over the top, completely over the top punk kid. There’s a dumb scene with him and his mom where he just, like, basically Throws coal slaughter. That’s right. Insults her to the her face, like, calls her names, and then walks out. She just kinda shrugs her shoulders.   I guess they meet at the at the ice cream shop. It’s local. 

Craig:  It’s like one of those, yeah, like one of those drive in ice cream places and I like, I love this because most of the scenes with them, with this group of young people take place at this, outdoor ice cream parlor where they loudly, openly discuss the fact that they killed somebody. Todd like, they’re virtually shouting about how 

Todd:  they murdered someone. 

Craig:  And not just once, but several times. 

Todd:  That’s right. I love it that after he’s done throwing the coleslaw Todd his mom’s face and stuff, she says, oh, did you wreck another one of your dad’s cars? You know, he gets them on lease from the company. You can’t just keep wrecking them. He hops in his car, and he goes down the road. And this is, like, the second of, like, 4 of these scenes where all we see is a car driving and some music playing for, like, 3 or 4 minutes. It’s excruciatingly long, and I guess it’s supposed to get you hyped up with the music and stuff, but nothing is happening. It’s just this car driving down the road. Like, they can’t even make an awesome looking car driving down the road with hopped up music behind it exciting.   And then he, like, pulls his red Ferrari into the twist and cream ice cream drive in shop Yeah. Uh-huh. To meet his buddies. This is it’s a serious gang. You know? That’s why I said, like, if my buddies and I had made this movie back when we were in college, this would have been, like, the 5 locations we could have gone Todd, you know. This was the owner 

Craig:  Sure. 

Todd:  That said, yeah. You could film at our ice cream shop. We’re closed on Saturdays. You get you get all day. And that’s why these guys are there. 

Craig:  Oh, well, it’s good enough for me. I can’t think of any better reason they’d be shouting about murdering somebody in Nice Cream Place. But, yeah, he’s funny. The main guy like, we’re supposed to care about these people. I they’re they’re awful. I mean, he right after they run over the kid, like, they pull over to the side of the Todd, and everybody else is kinda freaking out, like you said, except Jim. And, one of the other guys, I don’t even know what his name is, the blonde one 

Todd:  Bobby. 

Craig:  Like, looks at him and is like, are you okay? And he’s like, 

Todd:  I kinda liked it. You know, just taking his life like that, snuffing out that big candle, 

Craig:  it’s flat. Who wrote this? Who wrote this movie? 

Todd:  It’s terrible. Oh my god. 

Craig:  Oh, it’s so bad. Oh. Oh, man. Yeah. I would just, like like, if one of my high school kids, like, turned this into me, like, as a creative project, I would be, like, well, you were ambitious. 

Todd:  You can tell the film thinks it’s clever, though. Because then at the ice cream shop, there’s this there’s this ongoing thing where Jim is trying to pick up this waitress, and he gets more and more aggressive and really pretty nasty, but they’re always, like, there’s this supposedly witty, witty repartee going back and forth between the 2 of them, and it always ends in some kind of joke about his dick. 

Clip:  Can’t you get it through your head? I don’t wanna see you. 

Todd:  Yeah. Well, you’re not gonna do any better in this town, baby. 

Clip:  I’m really sorry, but my religion forgives into species mating. 

Craig:  You’re smart, aren’t you? But you’ll have it, and you will love it. So what? 

Todd:  Like, every single time. 

Craig:  Oh my god. The guy cannot stop talking about his dick. Like, he just like, that’s how he leads the conversation. Like, you’ve never seen one this big. Like, who does that? And then I I I in my notes, I’m like, dude, quit talking about your dick. She doesn’t wanna hear about your dick anymore. God. 

Todd:  But it doesn’t help that her her one liners back at him are so labored 

Clip:  as well.   Look, Jim. I prefer men with ones that be seen without the aid of an electron microscope. 

Craig:  Oh, and my favorite I think my favorite line of the movie is when he’s hitting on her at some point, and he’s just nasty, but, like, the the kid’s not even a good enough actor to really be threatening or imposing anyway. He’s just totally a douchebag. At one point, she’s like How old are you? 20 one. 

Clip:  17 is more like it. Right? Look, you may be tough, but I ain’t got to create it. I’m old enough to be your older sister. 

Craig:  That’s not a that’s not a thing. That’s not a line. I’m old enough to be your mom or I’m old enough to if you’re 9 months older than the kid, you’re old enough to be his older sister. Like, so bad. Like, I almost I almost feel like the line was supposed to be I’m old enough to be your mom, but the actress wasn’t really old enough. They’re like, we’ll just change it. Yeah. 

Todd:  I feel like Nobody would know. Yep. Right then and there, it had to be because, truly, this writer would not have written that line. I mean, come on. 

Craig:  Oh, god. I I can’t imagine. Okay. Alright. Okay. So this zombie Tom who who was, you know, this big body builder guy with this beautiful long hair, now all of a sudden he’s this zombie with short hair because I think that the mask had short hair because it looks like he’s just wearing a mask. It’s a terrible mask. It doesn’t move.   Like, if it’s makeup, it’s bad makeup because or he’s just that bad of an actor that he never moved his face at all. In some scenes, they bothered to give him kind of zombie hands, but not very often. Usually, it’s just his stupid zombie mask and his normal hands. And he’s walking around in like these cut off sweatpants through the whole movie like, oh, it’s so dumb. Okay. So then he starts killing off the kids, and the first ones he kills off are the the the tennis ones. It doesn’t matter what their names are. I don’t know.   But they’re the there’s a tennis couple, and, like, they play some erotic tennis and then like make out over the net and then go like Into 

Todd:  And 

Craig:  then and then they’re they’re gonna go have sex, like, in a hot tub, with all their clothes on. 

Todd:  He’s got his Todd whities on, at least 

Craig:  he’s got his tie and she is like fully dressed. Like she’s like, I think it’s supposed to be lingerie, but I feel like it’s like got a skirt. Like, I I don’t know. This this actress was clearly not getting paid enough to show her Todd because we were not gonna see anything from her and she was awful. Oh Todd, like I swear that she was Okay, she beats Tia Carrere in this one. I felt like it was all she could do to not look directly in the camera. And like I felt like they’re they probably had to really carefully select their shots when she wasn’t looking directly in the camera because she was so bad. The zombie shows up, kills the guy by breaking his neck, and then throws him into the hot tub.   And we get to see him like floating around in the hot tub with blood and and the office, like when the police eventually show up, they’re like, Yeah. They’re pulling that guy out of a pool filled with blood. Why? There wouldn’t be any blood? Like, 

Todd:  there was no 

Craig:  flesh wound. He just broke his neck. And when you see him floating around in the hot tub, like, he’s clearly moving. Like, this guy is not dead. Like, he’s like bobbing around in the hot tub. And then the zombie chases the girl literally around the gymnasium for like 2 minutes. Like, she doesn’t go out a door. She doesn’t go anywhere.   Like, literally, they just run around the gymnasium for like 2 minutes until he finally catches her and kills her with the baseball bat. And it’s just these lumbering shots. 

Todd:  This guy is not moving quickly. No. He’s your classic kind of lumbering zombie, and she’s running like crazy. And at some point, she just like rests, like, around the corner is how Yeah. It’s so poor. Like, she stays. It’s like she’s oh, she just rests, and then he comes around and grabs her and hits her with the baseball bat. Now this movie is also not good enough to show you anything, like, gore wise or whatever.   The best you’re gonna see is after the fact, some blood on the ground. That’s that’s all that that you really see, which really made this, I’m sure, perfect for Mystery Science Theater, like, oh my gosh. 

Craig:  Oh, god. Yeah. I I I would actually enjoy watching that episode a gig because I think it would be funny to watch them goof on it. But, yeah, I mean, as far as, like, the gore goes, I don’t know. Again, I don’t know how much we wanna get into it, but later, the last guy that gets killed, the blonde guy, the way that he gets killed is the zombie grabs his head and smashes it against this car in, like, an auto shop, like, in a garage. And you see the shot he grabs the guy’s head and pushes it towards the car and the effect was obviously that this guy had fake blood in his mouth. So he spits it out and it splashes all over the car before his head hits the car. 

Todd:  That’s right. Well, to be fair, in the world of this movie, blood comes out of your mouth whenever you die, no matter how you die. It’s just what happens. Okay. 

Craig:  I just loved I just loved seeing the blood hit the car before his head hit it. I thought that was so funny. Okay. I feel like we should get back to Adam West. So I’m just gonna say, alright. The the super punky guy, the one that ever you hate because he’s painted that way, he tries to rape that waitress and he gets, impaled with the baseball bat. Okay. So that gets most of the kids out of the way except Tia Carrera who gets killed after the blonde guy in a totally non exciting way.   But what’s going on in the background that we haven’t really mentioned yet is that there’s this young cop, I don’t know what his name is, but he’s investigating these murders. 

Todd:  It’s Frank, man. I know they’re always named Frank. 

Craig:  Well, all of them all of the names in this, like Tom, Till, Bob, Frank, Susie, Amy. 

Clip:  Jim’s dead, Bob. He’s killed Peter and Susie, and Jim went next. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Clip:  Pete. 

Todd:  Jim, but he’s Jimbo. So Yeah. That’s edgy. 

Craig:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  Mike. 

Craig:  Okay. So so explain the whole deal with with the cops and Adam West because we gotta get Adam West back in here and some 

Clip:  Hey, dude. 

Todd:  It just occurred to me. Even the Haitian woman is named Molly. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I called her Magic Molly because she just shows up and kinda does some hoodoo every once in a while. At one point, she’s show at one point at the in the finale when they’re at the garage, she, like, leads Frank to the zombie, which is another thing that I never really understood. Like, at the end, it almost makes it appear like she follows the zombie around Todd to see what it does or whatever. And and when she’s at the garage, she does, like, some tantric weird motions with her hands and, like, makes the garage door go down. I love Magic Molly. She made my favorite part of the movie. Magic Molly.   But anyway, Adam West. 

Todd:  Adam West. Well, we get this tacked on kind of, investigation. Frank. Oh, my gosh. Is it terrible? Frank goes to the to the, tennis club or whatever and, you know, finds the bodies and has this very typical dialogue just lifted from any cop TV show, but delivered in the absolutely poorest way. And we’re basically following him around as he tries to figure out who’s doing these murders, and it makes no sense. And it’s it’s so cliche. Every time he shows up actually, every time he shows up at a place, there’s a doctor there who it seems like is maybe trying to do a Columbo impression or something.   This doctor 

Craig:  I don’t know. I don’t know, but please play a clip because I was dying. 

Todd:  Craig, nice to see you can make it to the clambake. 

Clip:  Oh, what the hell else would I be doing at 3 o’clock in the morning? See your boys in white are moving right along? 

Todd:  Well, you probably noticed the lovely lady on her way out. Now the boys are trying to fish lover boy out of a swimming pool full of blood. What’s great is every time he shows up at the at the scene, there’s always a cop there and this guy there, so it’s always the same scene. He asks the doctor something. The doctor has something to say. They have some witty banter back and forth. They chuckle, and they go on. He ends up, back at the station and comes in, and it turns out that the chief, I suppose, the chief is Adam West.   And again, none of this makes any sense. 

Clip:  The cap, where did the newspapers get the, drug and suicide story?   I gave it to them.   You gave it to them? I don’t understand.   Frank, this Winston boy ran with 

Todd:  a bad crowd. High school kids, running red lights, getting drunk, smoking marijuana, 

Clip:  you know, the usual bad stuff. Murder’s a whole new ballgame. Till we get a line on this killer, I want the press to get 

Todd:  nothing but 

Clip:  misinformation. Otherwise, they’ll make this guy a a serial killer or a goddamn vigilante savior. 

Todd:  I mean 

Craig:  and that’s the thing. Like, Adam West, what can you say about his performance in this movie? Like, you there’s nothing you can do with this terrible dialogue, and I I feel like I don’t wanna say he’s not trying because he’s not a bad actor. And like you said, he’s got a great voice and he’s got a great look. But the best he could do is just deliver these lines. Like that’s it. Like you can’t do any more than that. It’s it’s just it’s it’s crap. I mean, he and he he knew it.   Like, I I feel like I could see in his face, in his performance that he knew that this was Craig, and he was just phoning it in. Like, seriously, sign the check. Like, come on. I’ve got other things to do today. 

Todd:  That’s right. 

Craig:  Oh, god. 

Todd:  I don’t it can have been a bit very big check. That’s for sure. No. I just didn’t somehow the somehow the the chief is skeptical of everything that Frank is doing and everything that Frank is saying, including the investigation and basically just telling him to wrap it up all the time. One of the it was one of the punks who had tried to rob the man in the grocery store gets brought into the police station, and he’s going ape. Like, he’s on PCP or something, and he’s, again at another terribly staged fight scene. Awful. Yeah.   Where there anyway, the the police have to subdue him, and for no good reason at this point, Adam West, the policeman, are the Kicks him in the face. Kicks him in the face. That’s right. And and is just convinced that because he’s a violent criminal and all these people died in violent ways, that he must be the killer, and so I’ve just wrapped up your case for you. How do you like them apples? 

Clip:  James is a terrifyingly strong dude.   Then why did he kill the kids? Then why did he kill the kids? You know none of them were robbed. 

Todd:  I don’t know. Maybe he 

Clip:  was working for somebody. Maybe he’s got a new hobby. But we’ve got him now, and we’ll find out just as soon as he talks. What’s the matter, Frank? A little flesh wound because you couldn’t solve this case yourself. What? The object is to clear these cases as soon as possible.   Maybe too soon. And then 

Craig:  they go on a date. 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. They’re sipping what’s clearly, like, just, like, iced tea or something, and when it’s supposed to be whiskey, there’s no oh my they’re not even in the right glasses. Everything about this movie everything about this movie 

Craig:  is terrible. And and then so, like right. He’s trying to convince him, oh, it’s nothing. It’s nothing. So then the young cop, Frank, I’ll take your word for it, goes home and sits down to a nice ham and cheese sandwich and a glass of milk. You’re not kidding. 

Todd:  You’re not. 

Craig:  And then decides that he needs no. I’m not kidding. It’s totally real. But then decides that he needs to do more investigation. And, he he real he looks at all these crime scene photos, and he realizes that Magic Molly has been at all these places. So he goes back to the captain and he’s like, Oh, look, Magic Molly was at all these places. And then we get this lazy ass, like, audio flashback where it’s not even a flashback to the beginning where the thugs were were hurting this girl. But we just like hear the audio play over the scene and Adam West does that thing in movies where it’s like, Oh, I’m remembering something.   He’s looking around at nothing. And as it turns out, Adam West was one of the fifties thugs, who harassed this girl. And so as soon as he dismisses Frank, he calls somebody else who we figure out is the other fifties thug who turns out to have been Jim’s, the horrible 80s thug’s dad. Yeah. So he’s like, get over here. We have to take care of something. And that other guy’s like, okay. And he runs outside and the zombie’s out there waiting for him and he shoots him, I think.   And then the zombie wakes up and then this guy, the fifties thug who’s now, old eighties thug, I guess, gets killed because he’s the slowest mother I’ve ever seen in my life. Like like he fumbles with the keys in the car for like 30 minutes, and then he gets in the car and doesn’t close the door and, like, fumbles with the keys in there for another 30 minutes until the zombie finally gets to him and just kills him. Oh. And, then it again, the yeah. The the zombie follows the last 2 kids who are remaining, Amy, 

Todd:  to your career. At least she gets saved till the end. 

Craig:  She gets saved till the end, and she calls the last guy. And she’s like, 

Clip:  he’s killed Peter and Susie and Jim. Where’s that? 

Craig:  Next? And so then they get together and, like, they’re, like, we don’t have any money. What should we do? Oh, well, let’s knock over a garage. And those were 

Todd:  okay. 

Craig:  So they go to the garage and they’re like 

Clip:  This is a big garage.   Yeah. A little too big.   I wonder where they keep their money.   Yeah. Good question. A little too good. 

Todd:  Oh my god. 

Craig:  These these are real lines. And so then they get slowly chased around in the garage, and they get killed. And then Frank, like, follows the zombie to a graveyard. And this is all so it’s so weird and contrived and stupid. I don’t even know. You talk 

Todd:  about it. Well, the thing is somehow the zombie knew that they were at the garage, because the zombie goes to the garage to kill them. The voodoo lady who we found out by now, is following the zombie around, apparently, I guess Todd make sure that he does it? I don’t know. She was at the garage too. So after the guy kills the guy and the girl, the zombie lumbers off, and the woman lumbers off after him, and then Frank follows the woman. And they he follows them her to a graveyard. And they’re at the graveyard, and I guess the idea is now that the zombie is done with his his revenge, But then Right. Adam West shows up with a gun, a weird gun.   It looks like a Star Wars blaster. Yeah. Actually, I 

Clip:  do not 

Craig:  Right. With, like, with it’s like a handgun with a scope and a silencer. Like, it’s weird. Yeah. 

Todd:  He just belts out everything that’s going on. Also, while giving the fun fact 

Clip:  But you see, some bees lose their energy after they revenge themselves. 

Todd:  Oh, that was my 

Craig:  that was my favorite thing. As soon as he shows up and Frank is there at the graveyard, he’s like, The voodoo lady explained everything to me on the way here. And then he explains it all. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Oh, god. Yeah. We we had a chat on the way over. I now I know what’s going on. No big. 

Todd:  So then he’s got a gun trained on Frank and the voodoo lady, and he turns, and he shoots the zombie. I have no idea why he shoots the zombie, but he shoots the zombie a couple times, and then he turns and he shoots her to kill her. 

Craig:  Frank’s like, I guess you have to kill me now, and he’s like, yep. 

Todd:  Yeah. But just so happened that they were by the Craig, and I put this together about a minute after the fact, but it looks like they happen to be near the grave of Tony’s dad. 

Craig:  Mom, the zombie. 

Todd:  Yeah. The zombie’s dad. And so this is our big twist ending is that the zombie’s dad, you know, it’s one of these burst out of the grounds. It looks like some green carpet was thrown over a hole. Yep. And, he grabs Adam West, and he pulls him down into, you know, a glowing red abyss. And then Frank turns around and walks away dramatically. 

Craig:  Through the mist. Yes. Through the fog machine. 

Todd:  For a long time, like, this just letting all this sink in for us. You know? I I just you know, of course, it’s dumb. Of course, it raises so many questions, like, why did Frank need to kill anybody? The zombie’s gone. Now the zombie’s finished. Right. He wasn’t even targeting Frank or his buddy Todd. So that was an issue. Maybe they thought after all these years that this voodoo lady would get some idea and try to hold them accountable, but she didn’t f r. 

Craig:  Even though she right. Even though she’s known all along, like Yeah. It’s not like any new information has been revealed or anything. Right. Yeah. And and why why is why is Billy, the nice baseball coach, rotting in hell to pull somebody down there. 

Todd:  Yeah. Well, the other thing that I didn’t get too, like okay. So this mother, right, it was the mother’s idea once her son was killed Uh-huh. To take him to the voodoo lady Todd have revenge. The mother was hell bent on revenge. And I’m thinking Yeah. If the mother was so hell bent on revenge, why through all these years did she just not have the voodoo lady bring her husband back from the dead to kill the people who killed him? Good point. You know? Good talking.   You know, sadly, the movie doesn’t hold up under scrutiny, believe it or not. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s really bad. But honest to Todd, like seriously, the first 20 minutes, I’m like, Oh, this is torture. I can’t believe I’m gonna have to sit here and watch the whole thing. And then by, like in the second half, I was like hysterically laughing because it was so bad. Like I was laughing out loud at how bad it was And I feel like if and I’m being redundant, I’ve already said this, but if they were going for cheesy and stupid, it wouldn’t have been as funny. They’re not.   Like, they they treat this like it’s a serious horror movie. And just the fact that it is so awful ends up being hilarious. I’m I’m not at all surprised, you know, whoever whoever picks the movies for Mystery Science Theater 3000, they did an excellent job in choosing this one because this is a great movie to to sit around and and poke fun at because it’s it’s just it’s terrible. But ultimately, ultimately, I enjoyed watching it because it was so bad it was funny. 

Todd:  Yeah. I would have enjoyed watching it more with other people, but you’re right. It is the quintessential so bad it’s good movie. No question about it. And I guess right now, here in 2017, the, episode of Mystery Science Theater 3000 where they do this movie is on Netflix right now. 

Craig:  Oh, man. And let’s check it out because it was it was really funny. 

Todd:  I would actually sit through this movie again to hear them riffing on it a 100%. It was 

Clip:  Me too. 

Todd:  Then watch a a young Tia Carrera one more time. Right. 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, god. Yeah. Can’t can’t say that enough. If you’re a fan of hers, she is gorgeous. Terrible, terrible acting, but, stunningly beautiful. She’s Todd, what would you guess? Would you guess she’s probably, like, in her teens in this movie? 

Clip:  I guess. 

Craig:  Maybe early twenties? 

Todd:  I think even in Wayne’s world famously, she was only, like, 19 or or something like that. 

Craig:  Well, she had to be really yeah. 

Todd:  But, yeah, she’s she’s got it. She still does Todd, anyway. 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. She’s she’s great. Love her. 

Todd:  Tia Carrera, if you’re out there. Yeah. We love you. We love you. We love you, Tia Carrera. 

Craig:  Glad you mentioned that. Adam West and Adam West. I almost, like, we’re I was watching this, and I was thinking, Todd. He deserves better than this. Like, if we’re gonna do a tribute, he deserves better than this. But again, you know, he he really had a great sense of humor about himself and about his career. So, if, if he, if he, And that he knows that it’s in all sincerity. He was a good guy.   He was a good actor and he left, a legacy, and not many people can say that. So, cheers to you, Adam West. Good life, good career, good guy. 

Todd:  And please don’t jump out of the grave and drag us down. 

Craig:  Please. 

Todd:  Thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. You can find us on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher. You can also find us on our Facebook page. Like us there. Let us know what you think of this episode, and also let us know what movies you’d like us to do in the future. Until that future time, my name is Todd 

Craig:  And I’m Craig with 

Todd:  2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

If you’re tired of found footage films, you might find enough good stuff to love about Rec to make it worth the watch. This Spanish-language film takes place in a Barcelona apartment building, as a television producer gets trapped in a quarantine situation with a deadly outbreak.

Episode 84, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Craig:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Craig,

Todd: and I’m Todd.

Craig: And Todd asked me to pick the movie this week, and so I went with the 2007 film, Rec, r e c, as in the letters you see, on the video camera when you are recording. The reason that I picked this movie is because I’ve wanted to see it for quite a while because I have seen the American remake, I have seen the American remake sequel, and I have seen 2 of the sequels of, the original movie, but I have never seen the original. I, was just unable to get my hands on it when I was interested, and Todd was able to find it for us. And so we watched it, for this podcast, and, I liked it, and I’m excited to talk about it. What’s your history with this movie, Todd? Have you seen it before? 

Todd:  I have not seen it before, but like you, it’s kinda been on my list, especially, you know, since 2007. I think we were seeing a huge influx around that time of found footage films starting from, I don’t know, 1998 or 99 from The Blair Witch Project. You know, I was thinking about this today, Craig, that, you and I, I think, have a unique burden to bear with our choice of podcasts. Right? I mean, our subject matter here there are a lot of movie podcasts out there, but we’ve chosen to do horror, and that just means that we have to plow through a lot of found footage films. I mean, I don’t True. I I’m not aware of any, like, found footage romantic comedies or found footage adventure movies. It seems like they’re all just kind of right here in the horror genre for us to for us to watch. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s it’s true. There are a lot of them, and a lot of people are just kinda turned off by the medium. You know, the whole shaky cam thing, I I understand that for some people, it it it causes a physical reaction, you know, they they it gives them a headache or makes them dizzy or makes them feel, nauseated. Todd doesn’t bother me. It’s never bothered me. The found footage thing has never bothered me. You know? I kinda feel the way about it that I feel about any genre.   You know, it can be done well, and it can be crap. And in this case, I think that it it it it worked pretty well. It’s believable. You know, the premise is you’ve got this young woman, a television personality. She works, on, like a late night show that probably airs sometime in the middle of the night. It’s called While You’re Asleep. And it’s just kind of one of those special interest kind of shows where she goes around investigating really what probably are fairly mundane things. And in this case, what she’s doing is, she’s following around some firefighters for the night to kind of see what their life is like.   And the main girl’s name is Angela Vidal, and she’s played by a young woman named Manuela Velasco, who apparently, is is really a television host and personality, in her native country. I assume Spain, but I could be wrong there. Spanish speaking. She and her, cameraman, Pablo, follow around these firefighters, and they start out at at the fire station, and and they’re kind of hoping something will happen. I mean, they she says that on camera several times, like, I I just wish something would happen. Not that I really want anything bad to happen, but we we just wanna see some action. And, they eventually do, find themselves in the middle of some action, and it ends up being more than what they had bargained for. It’s not necessarily the most unique premise, or necessarily even the most exciting premise, but it feels natural and it feels realistic.   You know, the first, I don’t know, 15, 20 minutes of this very short movie, it’s only about an hour and 17 minutes long, it feels real. It feels like something that you might stumble across, at 5 o’clock in the morning if you happen to be up at that time. For me, it works. You know? I I these characters, the way that they’re introduced, it it feels, very natural and, realistic, at least, from the beginning. And and I thought that it was an effective setup for this kind of movie which ends up being I was trying to describe this last night to, a friend and and and he was like, you know, what what kind of movie is it? And I said, well, I I I guess it’s kind of a zombie movie, or or one of those movies like 28 Todd Later where it’s some sort of infection that, causes people to behave aggressively and and murderously. And it fits very well into that that genre, but it it’s it’s a little bit different too, and and I appreciated that. 

Todd:  Yeah. And, you know, I think we’ve talked about this before when we talk about the found footage films, and that is it seems to matter an awful lot, at least it does to me, the setup. Like, the setup is key. Is is it going to be a believable setup? You have to have a reason for this footage to exist, you know, and then therein lies the the trouble of of the film is how do you portray the events happening in a believable way as such that there the cameraman is a character? And how do you incorporate that character into the film, and how do you give him or her an excuse, a reason for continuing to film and have that camera in front of them throughout all of the atrocities and crazy things. Like, you know, you and I would have just tossed the camera behind us and run Sure. You know, in a lot of these movies. And I think that this movie, as you said, starts out rather boring, and and I don’t mean that in a bad way. It’s it’s boring in that the premise is very believable.   It’s this woman, who is putting together this TV show, and we’re seeing, you know, her footage from it. And so she’s wandering around, and she’s talking to the firefighters, and it’s not uninteresting. It’s about as interesting as this TV show would be, you know? 

Craig:  Right. Exactly. 

Todd:  So in and of itself, it’s kinda neat. You’re you’re she’s talking to the firemen, and they’re saying kind of interesting stuff, like, you know, our jobs are usually pretty boring. We sit around and we it’s like the we hope that the alarm doesn’t go off, and it’s a good day when it doesn’t. But when it does go, you know, when we are called out, a lot of times it’s just like cliche things like like saving a pet or helping somebody, you know, unlock their car or just weird things like this. And so like you said, she’s the whole time, she’s just she’s just repeating to Pablo, my gosh. I really hope something interesting happens. I really hope the alarm goes off, or else it’s gonna be a really boring TV show. And it’s a really good setup for a film like this.   And then as the intensity goes on, we get another reason for the the filming to happen, and that is as a journalist and as these things are happening around them, they wanna record it. They need to document what’s happening even for their own personal safety. Right. Later. And I mean, never before, I mean, never before really has that been truer today when we find all kinds of crazy situations in the news where we’re so glad that people have cameras trained on events that just happened in front of them, and we now give a lot of leeway to people. Someone’s it seems like if somebody’s in trouble, it’s good if there are 2 people there. 1 person to help them Right. And one person to document it with their cell phone.   You know? 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, yeah. That’s absolutely true. And and I think that, part of the reason that the movie feels so real. I I don’t know if it’s because this young lady actually is a television host or if it’s just her acting skills, but, like, I I don’t feel like I know her, but I feel like I know who she is. You know? She’s this young, attractive journalist, and she’s hungry. You know? Like, I I imagine that she she’s she’s been given this TV show that probably in fact, somebody even says this at some at some point. 1 of the firefighters asks what the name of this show is and and she says, it’s called While You Were Sleep.   And he says, oh, well then who watches it? You know, like, if it if it’s, you know, documenting things that happen in the middle of the night and it’s airing in the middle of the night, who actually watches it? And I think that that provides a lot of motivation to her character. You know, I can only imagine that she aspires to more than this. And so when serious stuff starts happening and she realizes that she’s in the middle of a real story, you know, she’s determined to document it, and she’s determined, to make sure that this is something that’s going to potentially help her in in her career. And I found that to be very believable. Even when things start to get really frightening, you know, she, continues to insist that the cameraman keep filming. And I imagine that he’s probably in a similar position, you know, just this camera guy who probably does a lot of grunt work. He’s doing this show in the middle of the night. If this turned out to be a big deal, it could potentially be, a big boost in both of their careers.   And so you do believe that they would keep filming. Now when it gets towards the end, you start to wonder. You know, when when they’re really, really in peril, you start to wonder. But this the movie also does a good job of kind of making it a necessity to have the camera because eventually, at some point towards the the finale of the film, the the power starts to go out, and so the only light source that they have is the, light source on the camera. And so it would make sense that that they would continue to carry it around. So as far as found footage goes, and and I know that that’s an issue that you have with these movies. Why would they keep filming? That wasn’t really a question for me in this one. I, you know, I felt like it it it seemed natural that they would keep filming. 

Todd:  Yeah. I I completely agree. I I that made me super happy about it. And as a former news reporter myself, I could put myself in her situation as well. And in fact, there’s even a point in the movie where they come to blows with some of the characters over the fact that he needs to keep filming. It’s her insistence. There’s, you know, some authorities that come in later and insist that the cameras be turned off, and there’s a whole argument about it. No, it needs to run.   So yeah, all kinds of good reasons and ways than this in which this movie, builds that case and, makes itself feel a little more genuine and authentic that way, and I appreciated that 

Craig:  for sure. 

Todd:  Yeah, me too. So they’re, you know, they’re they’re doing their thing, and at one point they’re, you know, sleeping, and they’re playing basketball to pass the time, and the alarm does finally go off. And it’s apparently a person trapped in an apartment. So they all pile in the fire truck and they go out, and the police were already there. So it’s, she says, well, this seems like it might be a bigger deal than than, the normal, and the guy’s like, oh no, this is pretty normal, you know, police sometimes arrive. And they go in to this apartment building, and there are a number of people downstairs, a number of characters we’re gonna meet up with later, but there’s a woman with a young girl, and she happens to be complaining that her husband is supposed to be coming back. He’s out right now, trying to get medicine for her because she has tonsillitis and she needs some antibiotics. There’s a Chinese couple or or family down there as well.   We later learned there’s kind of a textile shop behind attached to this apartment building, you know, on the ground floor, but right behind this area where we’re in here. A number of different authority figures in there, and of course, Jennifer and Pablo, and the 2 firemen that they are basically going out there with, named Alex and Manu. 

Craig:  And and the reporters the reporter’s name is Angela. You said Jennifer. Jennifer is the name of the little Jennifer is the name of the little girl. 

Todd:  That’s right. And there’s another guy named Caesar. Mhmm. I’m an interesting character there, too. And yeah, so they they all arrive and they go upstairs to where this woman’s apartment is. Now it’s interesting because the authorities immediately, like, first it seems like it’s just the police kinda taking charge of the situation, and they’re telling everybody to stay downstairs, and what’s this camera doing here? Why is this guy with us? Why are the reporters here? And the firemen are like, well, they’re just a local TV crew following us around. And eventually they come to this conclusion that, okay, you just turn off the camera when I say you need to turn off the camera, and you stay out of the way and can come along. Up, to the this apartment that’s on the 2nd or third floor here.   And, of course, you’re on edge thinking what are they gonna find. Right? But there’s really no good reason to think that anything weird is going to happen, you know, in the context of the movie, except for the fact that you know you’re watching a horror movie. Right. And the apartments in this apartment building are huge. I think I think they’re in Barcelona, but it seems like these apart I mean, this apartment building must be rather large, and each apartment takes up, like, a whole half of the building. They break it through the door, and they walk along through a long, narrow hallway into this apartment, and the lights are off. And at the end of this hallway is is an older woman, like an elderly woman, but she’s 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  Kind of almost without any clothes on. She’s just got like a like a negligee type thing on and some underwear, and she Yeah. Looks to be covered in blood or at least she’s just sweating profusely. They go there, they’re trying to calm her down. She seems a little disoriented and weird. And suddenly, she just leaps at one of these guys and starts biting his throat. It’s the main police man, I think, that we had been seeing. 

Craig:  Yeah. She she jumps on him and and bites him, and everybody else just kind of, runs away and and runs downstairs. You know, one of the only issues that I had with the beginning of this premise is that the whole thing revolved around you know, this call, this emergency call revolved around the fact that people in the apartment complex had heard a loud noise and had heard a woman screaming. And so, you know, they’ve got the cops there and they’ve got the, firemen there. It it seemed odd to me that there were no medical people called. You know, you would think that an ambulance would be on hand, as well. I guess when, the filmmakers were conceptualizing this, they had originally considered having, Angela following around a group of police officers, which would have made just as much logical sense. You know, the the police are usually first respondents, but they felt like firefighters were more sympathetic. 

Todd:  That that 

Craig:  people that people like firefighters better than cops. And, you know, I don’t know if that’s true or not, but it was kind of weird to me that there were no, medical, people around. But you’re right. She she attacks one of the cops. And and again, that was a a lot of this happens when it’s it’s really dark. Yeah. And that added to the fact that the camera is moving around so quickly and and it’s it’s it’s so shaky. Sometimes it was difficult to tell what exactly was happening and so it was kind of hard to tell sometimes who was being attacked and this was one of those, those times.   And ultimately, you know, that, that didn’t really bother me. In fact, it kind of added to the suspense. You know, you don’t really know exactly what’s going on, and that’s okay. But one of the cops gets bitten, in the throat. Like, you see, it it’s really quick, but you see, like, it he gets his throat bitten out. Yeah. And somehow they get him downstairs, and they all they all end up downstairs, but a couple of them stay upstairs. And when they get downstairs, you know, they’re they’re talking about, okay, this this cop, you know, he’s bleeding profusely.   You know, we’ve got to get him to a hospital. We’ve got him to get him to an ambulance. And so immediately they try to get him outside and they find that they’re locked in. And there are authorities outside, lots of them, who are sealing off this building. And they they kinda communicate through loudspeaker or bullhorn or something and say, we, you know, we have to keep you locked in. It’s it’s for your own safety. You know, just just hold tight and we’ll get you out of there as soon as we can. And it becomes clear very soon that they’re being quarantined.   And that’s the title of the American remake is quarantine, and that’s exactly what it is. And so they’re they’re stuck in there. And And while all of this, you know, it’s chaotic. You know, these people want out. You know, there’s the mother who has the daughter who’s sick, and her husband is outside, and, she’s got a cell phone, and and she’s on the cell phone, and she says that her husband is out there, and he says that there’s tons of cops out there, and and they’re blocking off the streets, and nobody knows what’s going on, and everybody’s kind of panicking. And then in the background, which nobody is facing, everybody’s facing the door, but the cameras is facing the Craig. And so we see in the background, the other fireman, this one actually is Alex, not Manu, but, the other fireman falls. You know, all of this is taking place, like, in I I wanna say lobby.   It’s not like a big fancy lobby. It’s just, you know, the the small bottom floor entryway with with the stairs, you know, kind of spiraling up above it. And, Alex, the firefighter, falls from one of the upper stories down to the bottom, and there’s just blood everywhere. And you don’t know what has happened. You don’t know why he’s fallen. And it’s really jarring. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. And I read that the actors didn’t know that was going to happen. And so they just heard it happen behind them and so their reactions were the actors’ actual reactions to this this incident happening. And that was something else that I just read about the movie in general. The actors were not given the full script. They didn’t know what was going to happen from day to day. They would they would show up, and they would get their shooting script for the day.   And so they didn’t know what the fate of their characters were going to be on any given day, which apparently, you know, added to the tension because they were kind of nervous and on edge, not really knowing what to expect each day. And I I’m sure speaking as, you know, a prestigious community theater actor. 

Todd:  Don’t sell your social here, Craig. 

Craig:  Oh, you know, only receiving your script in your lines, you know, a little bit before you’re actually meant to perform them and and not really having any idea of your character’s arc or motivation, that that would create anxiety. But it works here because they’re supposed to be on edge and they’re supposed to be anxious and not knowing what their fate is going to be. So, I I I actually thought that was really, effective. And and that just kind of Alex, you know, the firefighter falling under the floor, he’s covered in blood. Is he dead? You know, is he what’s going on? Why did he fall? What’s going on? There’s all this weird screaming coming from upstairs, and not only is it screaming, but it sounds unnatural. Like, supernatural or or demonic or something, and and nobody knows what’s going on. And and that that really is just kind of the impetus for for the chaos that ensues beyond this point. And I found it to be, really effective.   You know, I was in it. Edge of my seat might not be the right word, but, I was very interested to see what was happening, what was gonna come next. 

Todd:  Yeah. Me too. I think at this point, however, a There’s that textile shop and there’s a kind of a big door, kind of a kind of a garage door, kind of metal door that they I think they end up opening and getting these 2 injured people out there. It turns out that one of the guys in the apartment complex is an intern, so he has some medical knowledge, and I think the firefighters had some medical supplies with them. They said maybe there was a first aid kit or whatnot in the textile shop. So they kind of push them out into this textile shop area, even though they can’t get out the other side either because that’s also blocked off. But here, at some point, the camera cuts off to black for about 10 seconds, and then it comes back on. And Angela and Pablo are by themselves going up the staircases, like going up to investigate the apartment by themselves.   And I just didn’t get that part, like, with how do we jump from all this chaos and stuff downstairs to what Todd these 2 sneak away and decide that without anybody else, they were gonna go upstairs to, you know, to the source of all this madness and investigate? Oh, come on. You know, I thought that was a little that was a little weird. 

Craig:  Yeah. I think they were following the cops. I think that they were just a little bit they were lagging a little bit behind. 

Todd:  Really? 

Craig:  I think that the I think so. I I think that when the firefighter fell down, I think that the cops went back up. I think. 

Todd:  Yeah. You might be right. 

Craig:  Or maybe some of the cops were still up there. I don’t remember. But Well, yes. When they get up there 

Todd:  Yeah. There are cops up there. Yeah. You’re right. Well, they get up there and they’re going back through the apartment again, and the old woman, well actually there’s some other girl who comes running out towards them, from the apartment, and I’m not even clear as to who that was. Do you know who that was? 

Craig:  I am not either. At some point, somebody else well, okay. So this girl runs out, and the cops shoot this girl. And then the the old lady runs out and they they shoot her Todd. And it’s just kind of a moment where, Angela and Pablo, it’s almost like they have to collect themselves like, holy crap, like this is happening, like there are dead people, you know, in frame and they kind of take a moment to collect themselves. When they go back downstairs, one of the cops says something. There was another woman in her apartment and somebody says, oh, that was probably the Colombian girl. And and later on, they they go through the, well, they they try to take it yeah.   The roll call. They try to take inventory of where everybody lives, and they say that this Colombian girl lived in in one of these apartments downstairs. I’m not exactly sure, who she was or who she was supposed to be. I guess ultimately, it doesn’t really matter Except for the fact that I do know that in the, sequels, a lot of stuff from the original movie is referenced. And I don’t know if this is one of those things, that is referenced later on. One of the things that I do know Well, so they shoot those people and then of course it’s all, you know, chaos. But once things start to calm down a little bit, Angela starts, interviewing all of the, residents. And I this could have been a moment where things unnecessarily slowed down, but I actually really enjoyed this part.   It was actually, I found it to be, whether it was intentional or unintentional, I found it to be kind of funny. You know, here’s this girl, trying to go about, you know, okay, what do we do? Let’s interview all the residents. And, and she’s trying to do like these, this hard hitting interview with all of these people. And, she interviews the the medical intern, and he’s trying to tend to the wounded, and we see that they’re both just like mangled, they’ve had big chunks of their faces bitten out and things, and one of the wounded, we see his eyes just briefly and they’re totally completely clouded over. And so it’s an indication to us that probably changing, in some way getting zombified or whatever. But she talks to all these people and so she interviews, the intern, she interviews, an old couple, and it’s funny because they’re just bickering and fighting with one another. So she interviews, the Asian family, and we’re watching it in Spanish, but it seems like there’s a little bit of communication problems between, her and the Asian family, which provides a little bit more comedy. But then she interviews this little girl who we’ve seen several times.   Her name is Jennifer. Her mother has been saying throughout that her daughter is sick. She’s got tonsillitis. The dad has gone out to get antibiotics. But she interviews Jennifer and she asks Jennifer, Who do you live with? And she says, I live with my mom and my dad and my dog. And Angela says, Well, where is your dog? And she says, He’s at the vet. He got sick. And that immediately, you know, I think that that would set something off for anybody.   You know, we’re obviously looking at some sort of infection or whatever, but it particularly rang a bell for me because in one of the sequels, part 3, one of the guests, and I believe it’s the one who is first infected, talks about how he worked, in this, veterinary clinic, and he had been bitten by a dog. And so, even though I haven’t seen, I haven’t seen part 2, I’ve only seen parts 3 and part 4. It was nice for me to see how these are all kind of, interconnected. The interviews just go on. She interviews the mom who says she’s gonna sue. She’s gonna sue. And then Caesar who it seems like 

Todd:  is maybe this, like I don’t know. He’s 

Craig:  was he what? Like Italian or Greek or 

Todd:  I don’t know. I don’t know. 

Craig:  Kind of funny. He 

Todd:  seemed Yeah. 

Craig:  Seemed like this kind of, older, possibly gay guy. 

Todd:  Yeah. Overly concerned with his looks. Little flamboyant. 

Craig:  Yeah. Hilarious. And and he’s funny because he kind of half whispers to the camera, It’s those Chinese, they eat raw fish and they never closed their door. Yeah. And he says something like, I mean, if they would do feng shui or other cool stuff, that’d be one thing. 

Todd:  Oh, man. Yeah. He’s even got the he’s even got it wrong about the raw fish. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just 

Craig:  this little interlude, but it it’s, it’s kind of a refreshing interlude, you know, it’s kind of a little bit of humor injected into all this insanity. But eventually we get back to the action where everybody ends up back together and the policeman who’s there, who still has communication with the outside, says, There may be an infection in the building. The health inspector is coming to take, blood samples from everyone. And once we find out everybody’s okay, then they’ll let everybody go. And that’s when they take the roll call and they find out that everybody is present except for the Chinese family has a grandpa who is is sick and disabled upstairs in bed, but he’s the only one who’s not present. And it’s funny that they make a big deal out of that, and it never really seems to matter. Like No. Does that Chinese guy ever show up? 

Todd:  I don’t think he does. No. It it makes me wonder if that wasn’t, like, cut out or something. Like, there’s maybe a cutscene Yeah. With him in it. And but there is another significant fact. And, again, I feel like I I saw it all coming. Like, I didn’t see it coming, but I I could tell when something significant was being said.   Like, I didn’t see the sequels, but I could tell, okay, the the sick dog, of course, that’s an alarm bell thing. And the other thing that, one of the guys say as they’re doing the roll call is that the top floor is a penthouse, but it hasn’t been opened for years because some guy from the grid rents it out and he’s just left it closed, he never comes. I thought, okay, we’re gonna end up at the penthouse by the end of this movie, and I wasn’t disappointed at all. So 

Craig:  Yeah. And and from there, I mean, everything just happens really quickly. The health inspector shows up in a hazmat suit, and of course, Angela and Pablo are following them around, and the inspector checks out the infected, and and the first thing that he does is he handcuffs them to their hospital beds, and and he injects one of them with something. But then as soon as that happens, one of the infected rears up and, bites the medical intern. HAZMAT guy, and I think it’s Manu, the firefighter, they run out of that room, and the health inspector closes the door and locks it. And the medical guy is still in there, and Angela is saying, We gotta let him out, we gotta let him out. And the guy says, No, he’s bit, and it’s spread through saliva, and we’ve gotta keep him in there. And, again, you know, if we’re if we’re gonna be critical of narrative, I would say that my only complaint is that the that cop and whoever else it was there were 2 people who had gotten bitten earlier on.   They were incapacitated for a good 20, 30 minutes before they woke up as man eating zombies. And and the health inspector says the reaction depends on the blood type and it’s unpredictable and we don’t have any way of predicting how quickly it will happen, how quickly the change will happen. But from this point forward, people start getting bit, and then 10 seconds later Yeah. They’re zombies. 

Todd:  That’s so true. Sometimes you don’t know. The other question I had was, how does he know so much about this infection? Was that ever explained? Was it about 

Craig:  the dog, 

Todd:  the vet clinic, the gut? 

Craig:  It’s about the dog. The, health guys, you know, they corner him and they’re like, what is going on? And he says, you know, this dog was brought into a veterinary clinic. It had some disease that was undiagnosable that we’d never seen before. Eventually it went into a coma. It woke up briefly afterwards, but it was, incredibly aggressive and it attacked all of the other animals in the shelter and it had to be put Todd, but the infection spread. And we checked the dog’s chip and it led us back to this building. And And so they immediately look to the mother who’s holding her daughter and the mother says, No, no, no, my daughter just has tonsillitis. It’s just tonsillitis.   And the guy says, Well, the disease is spread through saliva. And so, you know, we’re thinking if this little girl loved this dog, I’m sure she had some dog saliva on her at some point. So the the mother is saying, no. No. No. It’s just tonsillitis. And immediately, Jennifer, the 

Todd:  little girl, bites her mom’s face off. Another another case It’s another case of where she turned just a little too conveniently for the plot. 

Craig:  Yeah. Exactly. I mean, it’s it’s kinda silly that it happens exactly in that moment, but it’s exciting. And, you know, she jumps down and, you know, it’s it’s funny to watch child actors, you know. This little girl has just been very natural and sweet throughout, and now she’s supposed to be this, you know, rabbit zombie or whatever. She just kind of snarls at them and then runs up the stairs and, they run after her. And from that point on, I mean, it’s pretty much just chaos. The infected people who are back in the textile place are trying to get out.   They’re trying to keep them locked behind that garage style door. The the health inspector handcuffs the mother to the stair rail because she’s been bitten. She yes. Yes. 

Todd:  They even try that’s the best part. Actually, that was one of the best one of my favorite parts of the movie was when the guys are starting to get out of the textile part, and they realized they need to unshade the mother. Like, on the one hand, it’s like can’t. Like, why are you even bothering? You know that she’s gonna turn any minute now. Well and they can’t and, like, Angela’s trying to, like, pull her hand out of the haircut. Handcuffs. And and and I I suppose you would, 

Craig:  you know, that would be your humanity taking over, trying to help, but we, of course, know she’s a goner. And of course Yeah. The infected do get out and eventually, you know, just kind of attack that lady. And, and and from there, it it it basically is is just chaos. You know, the the the remaining people who are alive are running around trying to find sanctuary somewhere, and figure out what they’re gonna do. Meanwhile, these infected people are running all over the place, breaking down doors. And you know, the way that I just describe it, it sounds chaotic and almost a little silly, but I actually thought it was really scary. You know? And I think that the, the found footage aspect of it really added to that, to the suspense and intensity of it.   You know, you you almost feel like you’re there with them. You know, you feel that intensity. You feel that urgency. We we’ve gotta move. We’ve gotta we gotta do something. Just run. And I I thought it was good. I was on the edge of my seat at that point. 

Todd:  Yeah. And the fact that we’ve had these sort of jump scares earlier on in the midst of chaos Todd, with a guy falling down and the woman attacking. Later on, Caesar gets it in, I thought, a pretty shocking way as well. Amidst the chaos, even though there’s a lot of stuff happening going on, you still don’t know when some scary thing is gonna jump out and grab them, which is unusual, actually. You know, they didn’t ever really stop to these moments where they’re slowly artificially, you know, slowly prowling again through a quiet room like they have all the time in the world, you know, great around the corner, which you sometimes get in these kind of films. Really not until the very end when it when it makes a lot of sense, do they have this, you know, going on. And then, you’re right. It’s just it’s just absolute chaos.   It basically gets down to Mano, Cesar, Pablo, and Angela. The doctor was bitten. Cesar gets grabbed by the bit doctor, but not before he suggests running and getting the keys to an apartment that, maybe the, oh, the underground area, so that they can escape. There’s some underground something. So they go and run and have this hilarious, almost Harry Potter esque search for the keys, where they find, like, in the drawer, like, a giant ring of, like, a 1000000000 keys. But but by the time they find the keys, and I think it’s just, Angela and Pablo at this point. 

Craig:  It’s Angela and Pablo and Manu. The only reason that I say that is because Manu is kind of like this badass. Like, he’s taken down he’s taken down these infected left and right, and they have several encounters with them, and and he’s kind of the hero of the day. Ultimately, there’s an encounter where Angela says she gets grabbed by one of the infected, and and she said she’s crying. You just you don’t even see her on screen. She’s off. She’s out of frame, and she’s Craig, and she says, I got bit. I got bit.   And Pablo I think it’s Pablo. It’s either Pablo or Manu. I don’t even know if you can tell. One of them says, no, you didn’t. No, you didn’t. The fact that she maybe got bit, is not really significant in this movie, but it does pay off in the final sequel, because as it turns out, she for whatever reason, I don’t remember if they explained it or not, has some sort of immunity to this infection. And she ends up being the key to finding a cure for it. And again, it’s completely irrelevant to this movie and I have no idea if they had planned sequels or they were setting things up.   But it was just nice for me having seen those sequels to see those connections, and I and I appreciated that. 

Todd:  Oh, that’s interesting. 

Craig:  Yeah. Manu gets, attacked and and turns Todd, and it ends up just being, Angela and Pablo for the finale. 

Todd:  And I loved that shot where Angela and Pablo pop out because they’re going to grab Manu and they look down the staircase and Manu’s head pops up and he’s like, and you look Todd, the entire staircase is just full of these zombie creatures running to make their way up, but that was pretty freaky. And then, of course, she’s fumbling with all that. I mean, they decided there’s no way for them to go but up, so they’re trying to get into this penthouse. She’s got inexplicably, even though she has this huge handful of keys, she manages to find the right one just in time and go in. Yeah. It’s like the second one she tries. She’s got quite an immunity there, I’d have to say. Yeah.   Anyway, so they go into this apartment, and, the apartment is just it’s kind of what you’d expect. It almost looks like the the stereotypical serial killer apartment, where it’s just, paper newspaper clippings all over the wall and what looks like lab equipment and doctor material. 

Craig:  Lots of religious iconography. 

Todd:  Yeah. All kind of mixed together. And the lights, they I either they don’t try to find the white switch or the lights don’t turn on or they think the power’s out, but it actually isn’t. They’re just using the light on the camera Todd, to to look around, and this is that point, like you said, where the camera light became really important, and I thought very effective Todd, because we never get a very good sense of the wholeness of this apartment. We’re just seeing all these creepy little little bits and pieces. But it turns out that all these newspaper clippings and everything are related to this girl, this girl who was supposedly possessed, and somehow the Catholic Church got involved and tried to exercise her. And her, I don’t know if it’s uncle or or somebody that she knew, who ends up being the owner of this apartment, who we never do see, but who created and did all this stuff, is going was trying to fix her, somehow figure out what this infection was that he decided she had. And we learned all this, more or less, by her pushing aside some papers and some newspapers and stuff on a bench, and and she exposes a reel to reel tape player.   Yeah. And I’m thinking Very 

Craig:  evil dead. 

Todd:  I know. Like, where are we? Is this 77? Are we in a cabin in the world? Like, really? I’m kind of shocked that this woman even, like, knew how to press play on this thing and get it to work. I I grew up. I had a reel to reel player. I don’t think I could do it anymore. But, yeah, she plays it, and we kinda hear all the explanation more or less from the first person. You know, in a way, the movie reminds me a lot of playing like a Resident Evil video game or something like that where you got these little bits and pieces of footage from this this kind of stuff, these recordings. 

Craig:  Oh, gosh. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely feels like a first person, video game. And I guess that there have actually been, some video games that were inspired by this with the first person point of view and stuff. But that tape, I actually I thought this was really interesting because we only hear bits and pieces of it and, it it talks about how this girl was possessed and then he talks about the voice on the tape talks about discovering some enzyme that he think is he thinks is going to be able to cure her. And then she fast forwards a little bit, and he’s like, uh-oh, bad news. The, enzyme didn’t work, and I’m afraid it’s infectious.   Now I’m not exactly sure what’s going on here, and I don’t know that they ever, even throughout the course of the the the sequels, if they ever fully explain it because it’s kind of a mix of demonic possession slash, medical infection. What it sounded to me like on the tape, and I could be totally wrong listeners, if you’re listening at all. I I could be totally wrong on this, but this is my theory. What it sounded to me like was that this girl was infected and this guy was trying to find a cure for the infection, but instead of finding a cure for the infection, he somehow viralized the possession somehow. Yeah. And and then it it it started, you know, because he was trying to treat this girl in this building, you know, the the whoever it was, I think it was the intern who, you know, is kind of the super for the building, he said, you know, this guy owns that apartment, but it’s been closed up for 3 years or something like that. And as it turns out, it appears, you know, maybe it was closed up for 3 years, but he was up there with that girl all that time trying to work with her, trying to cure her. And when he was unable to, then somehow the infection started to spread throughout the building and that’s what started all this.   It’s interesting, you know, ultimately it’s really not all that important, but I appreciate the fact that they at least try to give us some indication of why what is happening is happening. And I don’t mind the fact that it’s left a little mysterious that we’re not sure that we’re not given, you know, we’re not given, okay, here’s definitively why this is happening. We just kinda get little bits and pieces, and I I think that adds to the mystique, and I appreciate that. 

Todd:  Well, and the fact too that the older woman and the Colombian girl, whatever, who they pretty well blew away in the apartment the next time that they go up to investigate the apartment, which happened earlier. They weren’t even there, suggests that there’s something a little more supernatural than just an infection going on, you know. So that question gets raised a little bit earlier on in the movie, even though at this point, you know, it’s still seems to be leaning more toward a medical explanation, it becomes a little muddled. And you’re right. That is that is nice to leave it that way. And wow, and the sequels don’t really explain it anymore, They just 

Craig:  Well, I mean, they they address it, and it’s been a long time since I’ve seen them and I’ve only seen them once, so I I can’t say with any certainty. But, I I do know just having what I’ve read about, you know, it’s not entirely clear. There’s some, like possession demonic aspects to it, but it also does spread, you know, biologically. So I’m not exactly sure. Anyway, they’re they’re they’re they end up they’re in this penthouse, and and the zombies are out side, and so they’re looking around trying to find a way out. And out of nowhere, this trap door, this attic door falls down. I would have reacted like Angela who at this point is just freaking out. Like, it almost becomes a little annoying.   And, Pablo is he says, well we we’ve gotta check out the attic. You know, there’s nowhere else to go. And he’s like, I’ll just put the camera up there and and and swirl it around, and then we can bring it down and look and see the footage and see what’s up there. And, he does that, and it’s a very slow pan all the way around, and it finally, as it comes almost 360 degrees back around, it pans to somebody who’s obviously infected. It looks like a kid to me, but it was, you can’t really tell because it’s so quick. And who whoever or whatever it is hits the camera and breaks the camera, breaks the light on the camera so that they’re in complete darkness. This last 5 minutes of the movie, is incomplete darkness, and all we can see, he turns the night vision on on the camera. And that’s all we can see.   Eventually, they they realize that there’s some infected person in the apartment, and Pablo is trying to calm Angela down and say, be quiet. Be quiet. It’s so dark. They can’t see us. If they can’t hear us, they can’t find us. And that works for a minute, you know. But eventually, you know, as they’re trying to sneak away, one of them knocks something over and the infected person attacks. It gets Pablo, and so the camera just drops on the floor.   And then, we see Angela in the frame, of the camera, and she’s kind of crawling towards the camera. And this is the shot that they showed in the previews both for this movie and for the remake, which is kind of a crap thing to show in the preview because it’s the ultimate movie, the ultimate part of the movie. She’s crawling towards the camera, it’s all in night vision, and all we see is apparently somebody grabs her and just pulls her away, and then it cuts to black and that’s the end. That ending in the black, you know, in the darkness, I I thought was was good and and scary. It was a night vision camera, but you you could see so little. Like, you could only see, you know, what was directly in front of the camera. You couldn’t see anything in the periphery, and that was good. And I also read that, they filmed these sequences in complete darkness.   So the actors had no idea what was going on around them. So a lot of their reactions were natural or at least in part natural. You know, they knew maybe what their lines were and knew what the end game was, but they didn’t know what was going on around them. And, yeah, and it was it was effective. Overall, I liked this movie. I didn’t have a lot of expectations going in. I knew that I had liked some of the sequels. I haven’t seen part 2 so I don’t know if part 2 does the whole found footage thing.   But I saw part 3 and part 4 and they do not. They they do not do the whole found footage thing. I think that there may be some parts of the movies that, are are found footage. But for the most part, it’s just your your average cinematography. That works fine for those movies. Fans of this franchise do not like part 3. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. 

Craig:  And I loved I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And I think they they try to inject more humor into the third one. It takes place at a wedding, and all of the wedding guests at the reception start to turn, and your heroine is the bride, and so she’s running around fighting all of these zombies in her wedding gown. And, at at at 

Todd:  some point, there’s, like, a 

Craig:  a knockoff SpongeBob SquarePants zombie. Like 

Todd:  This sounds like a trauma film. 

Craig:  It it’s not that I don’t wanna say low quality. That’s not fair. Trauma does what tropa does. But, I would say, bigger budget. I’ll just say that. 

Todd:  Well, you know, I’ll tell you. I’m kind of a little played out on the whole found footage thing. But quite honestly, just like you, I really did like this movie. It was just different enough. It really held my interest. And again, I think a lot of that had to do with the context and the fact that it was all claustrophobic, you know, it all took place in this one location. It was the kind of place that’s more or less familiar to all of us, so you could kind of relate to all of it. It’s not like they’re wandering around in the sewers or, you know, they’re tearing away through the city.   It’s it’s apartments in an apartment building. And, you know, some found footage films are better than others. This is definitely, definitely better. Although, honestly, if I had seen this in the theater, I probably would have had to turn my eyes away at a couple different points. I don’t always get, you know, ill from watching these. Well, I actually, when I watched the very first Blair Witch with my wife, in the theater, I think she made it through 5 minutes of that movie, after things got going. And then she closed her eyes, she turned her head and would peek at the screen every now and then and couldn’t do it. And finally, when we left, she threw up in the bathroom.   Oh, no. So she even more is even more sensitive than I. But, you know, since then, a lot of these movies we talked about, oh, what’s the big j j Abrams one? 

Craig:  Cloverfield. 

Todd:  Cloverfield did a really nice job of bringing things stabilizing things every now and then, you know, and not making it too Craig, although that one did also get a reputation for making people sick. This one, it’s like they didn’t even care. Like the camera just whips around everywhere all the time. Even when it could be stable, it’s still shaky. On the small screen, it works really well for me. On the big screen, I think I woulda had problems with it. 

Craig:  Yeah. I can see that. And and I think that maybe you could speak to this more from a technical perspective, but I read that they didn’t build any sets for this movie. All of these, everything was filmed in real locations. And I felt like that made a difference. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Because it it it felt claustrophobic and it felt real. It didn’t feel like we were getting point of view shots from a point of view that couldn’t happen. Do you know what I mean? Doctor. Yeah. 

Todd:  You’re right. 

Craig:  Doctor. It seems like in a lot of these, if it were taking place in a narrow hallway, we might get a perspective that you really couldn’t get in a narrow hallway. And, and this felt very real. I I mean, it it almost felt like news footage, and I think that the fact that they filmed it in real locations as opposed to sound stages made a big difference. 

Todd:  Yeah. And aside from the fact that occasionally, Pablo turns the camera around as he’s running away just to catch what’s what’s chasing him, More or less, everything was pretty motivated as far as where the camera was. Sure. There was even that moment or 2 where they dropped the camera or he would deliberately set the camera down to do something. Right. You know, they did that Cloverfield really well, as well. This this one also, again, I it never took me out of the movie. It was it was good.   Yeah. I’m glad that you recommended it. I had to I have to admit, I wasn’t really looking forward to it because because it was found footage, but, I was very pleasantly surprised. And like you, not completely on the edge of my seat, but definitely enthralled through the whole thing. 

Craig:  Yep. Yep. Me too. Thank you for listening to another episode of 2 Guys in a Chainsaw. If you enjoyed this episode, talk to us about it. Leave us some comments on our Facebook page or tell us that we’re big idiots who are completely wrong and have no idea what we’re talking about. We we enjoy engaging with you. You can find, this episode and all of our many back episodes on, iTunes and Stitcher.   You can find us on our Facebook page. If there are any movies that you would like for us to watch and talk about, please let us know. Otherwise, until next time. I’m Craig. And I’m Todd. With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Ah, where to begin with this one? Scary it is not, but you’d be hard-pressed to find a more wacky or off-putting film in all of cinema. We wish we could say we were taken in by its charms, but some rather disgusting antics in this movie turned our stomachs more than mere goriness ever could.

Episode 83, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello. Welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  So some time ago, we reviewed the Japanese film House, Hausu, which is a personal favorite of mine. And, Craig, I think you thought it was a little wackadoodle. 

Craig:  Yeah, it was. But it was it was fun, interesting. 

Todd:  And you liked it so much that you said, Craig gave me a task. He said, Todd, find me another, like, crazy Asian horror film that we could watch. 

Craig:  So I 

Todd:  don’t know if you’re regretting this now. 

Craig:  What you wish for. 

Todd:  That is so true. I got online, and at first, we were gonna do Chinese ghost story, but I had trouble, getting one with subtitles. And then I did download the subtitles, but I was having a hard time getting them to line up. So we put that one on hold in favor of another film that I found last minute called The Boxer’s Omen. This is a 1983 film by the Shaw Brothers. Now, Craig, are you at all into kung fu films or Hong Kong flicks? 

Craig:  I’m not at all, and I think that that may have some impact on how I felt about this movie ultimately. I’m not. I know that in the 70s 80s there was this demand for these, kung fu movies, these Bruce Lee type movies, and the Shaw Brothers production company I guess really capitalized on that for a long time, but as that demand began to decline, they were looking for something else to capitalize on, and I guess horror was, the direction they decided to go. So this movie ends up being kind of, it really feels like 2 movies, really. Yeah. And 2 movies that really don’t have anything to do with one another. Like, you’ve got you’ve got this kung fu revenge plot thing going on and then like this, subplot which really ends up being the biggest part of the movie about how this kung fu fighter is somehow tied to this weird Buddhist. I don’t I don’t even know.   Like 

Todd:  It really defies the description. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I don’t know. I I am interested to see how you’re gonna how you’re gonna spin this one because, man, I I I’m really at a loss, like, at a loss for words with this one. 

Todd:  Having watched a number of kung fu movies and a number of Shaw Brothers films too, I can tell you they really range the gamut. There’s usually some magical element involved. If it’s not straight out and out magic like we have in this movie, at least, you know, people are able to kinda fly through the air and and flip off the walls and do lots of crazy stunts and run across rooftops. And, it just kind of goes part and parcel together like magic and kung fu. And this movie is kind of what you get if you take all the kung fu out of it and you decide, we’re gonna go all in on the magic stuff because it’s just as weird, maybe even more weird than most of these films that I’ve seen. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. 

Todd:  You have to kinda come into it with an open mind and realize that and and the part of the fun of them really and this is how I’m gonna spin it, Craig. Part of the fun part of the fun of these kind of movies is knowing that if anything, and kind of like House, you’re in for a wild crazy ride. It may not make a whole lot of sense. The special effects may not be that great, but it’s going to be kind of imaginative, and it’s certainly going to be different from anything else you’re going to see. And at the very least, it may capture your attention. It may keep your eyes glued to the screen for a while or in our case, make you turn your eyes away from the screen every day. Doctor. 

Craig:  Oh my Todd, yes. Yeah, I mean that’s the thing. It’s difficult Todd Hausu really is our only well, you’re more well versed in in these types of foreign films, but for me, House is really kind of my only point of reference for for this type of movie. And it was wacky, like, ridiculously wacky, but it was fun to watch, like it was it was funny and and silly and ridiculous. And this one, I I I guess, you know, having read about it, that there was a tradition for this type of movie. And so people who had seen this type of movie, I guess, would have known what to expect. I didn’t know what to expect, and it would and I knew nothing about the movie going in, and it was so off the wall in such oh, god. It you know, it’s it’s I don’t know if it’s playing it for humor or not.   Maybe it is, but if it is, it’s a sense of humor that is foreign to me. And and I I have to say, I didn’t like it. I did not enjoy this movie. Like, there were parts of it that were fascinating because, you know, there there is a storyline, and and the storyline, I guess within the context of the movie kind of makes sense, but, really it just it it felt like the story was there just to serve the purpose of exhibiting all of these special effects and and weird, traditions. It’s gross. I mean, there’s weird stuff going on like, you know, reanimated skeletons and reanimating dead things and stuff. And like, some of the effects were interesting to look at, but then some of the plot elements were just so bizarre and disgusting that like I I I had a hard time. I love horror folks You know that.   And so I I can take gore and and and that kind of thing, but there are some things like cutting off the anus of a live chicken and then chewing it up and then swallowing it and regurgitating it and spitting it into somebody’s mouth. And that process repeating like 4 or 5 times. Like that’s too much for me. 

Todd:  Theoretically speaking. Theoretically, 

Craig:  Steve. Right. 

Todd:  Just just to say I just I just can’t. If there were a scene like that in a movie like this Right. It’d be hard to watch. 

Craig:  It it was it was too much. And, when I finished this movie, I texted Todd and I said, you’re done. You’re not kicking the movies anymore. It’s over. 

Todd:  I really I really after I finish this, I thought our friendship might be on the line. 

Craig:  I don’t know. It remains to be seen. We’ll we’ll see how you go about defending this, and then I’ll make my judgment at the end. 

Todd:  Well, hey, now let’s be real. I I mean, my defense is that I came into this as blind as you. I I had seen this before. Alright? 

Craig:  Yeah. And and I asked for it. To be fair, I did ask 

Todd:  for it. 

Craig:  Todd not lying when he says that. I did ask for it. 

Todd:  Well, it starts out pretty typical. In fact, I I had a big smile on my face because it starts out in a Muay Thai boxing ring. We’re in Thailand, and, there’s a boxing match going on, and there’s a Thai boxer and a Chinese boxer. And the Thai boxer, if you’re into Hong Kong cinema from the sixties seventies at all, you’ll recognize this guy, Bolo Yeung. You know, Asians are not known for being very bulky. You know, you don’t see a lot of, like, Asian weightlifters and things like that, but this guy is huge. He’s just got an impressive, like, Arnold Schwarzenegger type physique, And he’s beating the tar out of this other guy. And, he he basically puts him in the hospital and he does it a little unfairly.   And so this other dude jumps in the ring, and we later find out that his name is Hong Chan. And he is, turns out the brother of this boxer who’s been beaten to a pulp. So he has a meeting with his uncle Chi, and it looks like Hung kind of wants to get some kind of revenge on this guy. And it turns out, and I I wasn’t entirely clear what was going on here. There’s something about some gang or or something like that, but he ends up, at a warehouse trying to meet was it was it a fighting promoter for a rematch with this Baobo, the Thai boxer? I don’t know. 

Craig:  Beats me. Yeah. Alright. 

Todd:  I’ll just keep going then. 

Craig:  It was and and I think that part of it too is that, like, you know, of course, we’re reading subtitles. So we’re reading subtitles and and maybe missing a little bit of the action, and I think really missing a little bit 

Todd:  in the translation too. Yeah. But, yeah, 

Craig:  it was it it was all 

Todd:  translation too. Yeah. But, yeah, it was it it was all tied into somehow, I think, how 

Craig:  they were going to avenge his brother’s defeat and and his unfair defeat. Because I I think I don’t remember how it ended up playing out, but did the Chinese boxer, I think did he end up winning, but then yeah. He ended up winning, but then the Thai boxer, like, while the Chinese boxer was celebrating, like, knocked him down and, like, stamped on his spine. So 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  He’s, like, paralyzed. So it was kinda like a $1,000,000 baby kinda deal. And now the brother is is set to avenge him. And I I think that that’s how this meeting gets set up. It’s it’s something about avenging, but it turns out to be a sabotage. 

Todd:  That’s right. A bunch of guys come in and jump him. He ends up, tied up by his legs, hanging and dunked in some water, and it looks like they’re gonna take care of him. In fact, they’ve tossed a bag of body parts in front of him, and it turns out it’s this Uncle Chi that he had been meeting with to set this up in the first place. So you know this guy is doomed, but then all of a sudden, there’s this bright light and this flash, and he sees a vision of, looks like a monk just kind of glowing in the corner. And suddenly, he’s on the floor and all the bad guys around him are completely dead. And so he just runs out as you would. Okay.   Cool. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Right. Eddie goes home and bangs his girlfriend. 

Craig:  Yeah. In a really gratuitous and and pretty violent kind of sex scene, like Yeah. You can tell that it’s you can tell that it’s consensual. And again, I guess that this is another kind of, you know, it’s a tradition of this type of film, these kind of violent sex scenes. And it didn’t make me particularly uncomfortable, in its graphic nature, even though, you know, it it was rough. You know, it it it you could tell all along that it was consensual. You know, this is a girl. I don’t know if it’s his girlfriend or if it’s just a girl that he bangs from time to time or whatever, but, she was into it, but he was, like, throwing her up against walls.   And it’s so exploitive. Like, she’s naked, and then like, they’re up against this big glass window or door or something, and like, it’s raining outside, and he’s got her pressed up against the the glass. Like, there’s a a shot from the a shot from the other side of the glass 

Todd:  of her boobs just, like, smashing up against the 

Craig:  I mean, at this point in the movie, I’m like, what are we watching? What is happening? And and really nothing really has happened yet that is as bizarre as it’s about to get. Oh, man. So weird. 

Todd:  I was actually thinking about that sir makes a lot video. Put him on the glass. Have you ever seen 

Craig:  that? No. 

Todd:  Go to YouTube and look it up sometimes. 

Craig:  Okay. I’ll I’ll I’ll get right on that as soon as we’re done. 

Todd:  That’s right. Well, that is and you’re right. That is pretty typical, actually, of these kind of films. Hong Kong category 3 movies, tended to be pretty high on the violence, pretty high on the sex, even though there’s a rating scheme and a limit, you know, to the censor’s ability. So they would really play up and kinda make these sex scenes over over the top as much as they make the kung fu action pretty over the top as well. So, nothing to be terribly alarmed at, but like you said, it it is pretty jarring if you’re not used to it. Right. Anyway, yeah.   As soon as he’s done with this, he’s sleeping and wakes up, and there’s an orange light that visits him, and it’s this glowing kind of triangle thing that, floats through the house. It’s a very distinct kind of symbol. It looks almost like a Sanskrit symbol or something. It’s a triangle, and it floats through the apartment. He follows it into the one of his rooms, and, it turns out like it’s it’s like the TV. He goes to visit his brother who’s paralyzed, and his brother asks for revenge. And so, he naturally goes to Thailand to confront the boxer. They’re having kind of a celebration, for this boxer.   I guess they seem to think he won or something. Anyways, so Well, 

Craig:  it’s it’s like they’re claiming he won, like Yeah. Yeah. The Chinese officials said the Chinese guy won, but obviously our guy really won. And our main guy I I’m terrible with these names. Terrible, terrible with foreign names. So I apologize. I’m not trying to be culturally insensitive, but I’m I’ll probably just keep saying that guy. It’s it’s weird because he gets there and he meets, like, he he interrupts this press conference or whatever, and he challenges the Thai fighter to a fight.   Like, he’s gonna fight him to avenge. And it’s gonna be in, like, 3 months or something. I don’t I don’t remember. So then he leaves, and he’s, like, I don’t know, taking a boat, down this canal to wherever he’s going. And he sees that same glowing light that he saw in the apartment, and it it illuminates this part of this monastery. And he goes into this monastery, and there’s all these monks in there and, Buddhist monks. And, he goes up to the front of the monastery, and somebody greets him and says, you’ve been expected here. 

Todd:  And he’s like, well, that doesn’t 

Craig:  make any sense. Greets him and says, you’ve been expected here. And he’s like, well, that doesn’t make any sense. I’ve never I don’t know anything about this. How could I be expected? And I think that my favorite part of the movie, and and there aren’t very many, but my my favorite part of the movie is this monk goes, well, it’s it’s a long story. And then it sure is. Like, there’s this great, big, long back story That’s true. That is entirely disconnected from anything else that has been going on so far, but ends up really being kind of the central plot.   But that just cracked me up when he’s like, well, it’s a long story. And then we go into this flashback that takes, like, 10 or 15 minutes. 

Todd:  That’s true. 

Craig:  It’s hilarious. 

Todd:  He said, that the abbot of this monastery had traveled to Hong Kong to take care of a black magician named Maigusu. And, he he’s right there at the airport, and Maigusu was walking maybe to his plane or something. I don’t know. And, this monk calls to him from across the airport, and Maigusu turns around. And, the monk throws like a it’s like a little mirror that attaches to this guy’s forehead, and he starts to bubble up. His skin turns green, and this is the first of many of these weird kind of low rent, but still fascinating, I think, special effects that we’re gonna get here, all practical. Yeah. Thanks.   Yes. That’s about the right way to describe it, wouldn’t you say? 

Craig:  Yeah. Fair fair enough. I mean, it it’s it’s certainly interesting. Fair enough. 

Todd:  So he bubbles and greens. It looks like he’s kind of melting, and then the camera pans up past. Oh, he’s fallen behind some chairs, and as it passes up behind the chairs, this guy this magician grazes up, and he’s turned into a hag. And his mouth opens and this bat flies out of it like this bat is his spirit or something going to attack the monk one last time. And the the monk grabs this bat. Go ahead. What? 

Craig:  Did did you hear that folks? 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Craig:  The guy the guy throws some sort of crystal in his face. 

Todd:  His face starts to bubble up. 

Craig:  Then he turns into an old Craig 

Todd:  and then a, 

Craig:  then, then a bat puppet flies out of his mouth. Then the guy kills the bat. They’re, like, grabs 

Todd:  the bat. 

Craig:  Like, that’s how this movie goes. Like, it’s just you have no idea what’s going on. Like, why did this guy, this seemingly normal guy turn into an old hag before vomiting up a bat puppet, and then, like, what? 

Todd:  What’s happening? Black magic, man. Black magic. 

Craig:  God. And and that’s the thing, like, you know, even I I guess, really, this is the point where I was so baffled as to what was going on that I just had to kinda throw my hands up in the air and say, okay. I guess, like, we’re just in this for the ride. Like, I have no idea what’s going I have no idea what’s happening, but okay. Things are happening. So just keep watching, I guess. 

Todd:  Well, the best way to think about it is, like, as you said, there are, like, 2 parts to this movie. It’s almost like this backstory, almost 3 if you count the backstory, really. But anyway, there’s this backstory, and then the, and they’re both kind of you could think of them as wizard duels. Right? So this monk Yes. Grabs grabs this bat in the air, tucks it in his in his tunic, and the next thing we know, the monk is back in the monastery or the abbot is back in the monastery, and he’s performing this elaborate ceremony on this little bat puppet. And he’s he’s got it pinned to a board, but it’s still moving, and he’s doing some stuff. And while he’s inciting his incantations and the bats, like, changing and it burns up, and all this weird stuff happens, it cuts to a whole different place where it’s clearly like it’s the opposite of a monastery. It’s like black magic devil worshiping area or something like that, temple, where there’s this giant bat statue.   And there’s another black magician or some disciple, maybe he’s the abbot of this place, who kind of, like, wakes up and looks around. It’s like, wait a minute. What’s happening to my bat? Right. And he realizes that now that this bat spirit is being taken care of by the monk on the other side. So he starts with his own incantations here. And so what we get is just flashing back and forth between the abbot in the monastery and the stuff that he’s doing to the bat and the black magic guy in his dark temple of horrors or whatever, and the incantations that he has to do to try to, like, save the bat. And there are these parallel things going on, and I don’t know, it’s really complicated and hard to describe, except in many cases, like there’s a lot of gross stuff involved, in making these incantations. Like, I mean, at one point, the monk smashes the bat and the magician gathers some snake venom and this giant human skull, which is pretty gross, out of an urn that he has of many things on the wall, and and it’s got like a brain in it.   And he’s it’s snake venom out of a snake. He revives the bat by spitting rat’s blood on it from a rat that he’s bit into. There there are spiders that come into play here at some point that use little straws Todd, like, suck up this green goo. I mean, it’s just like a bunch of guys sat around a table and were just like, so what kind of special effects do you think we could do? Well, we could do some spiders, and I’ve got like a skull thing that I’d offer rats head and spit some blood over it. It’s just an amalgamation of all kinds of crazy stuff. 

Craig:  Yeah. The the these spiders, I have no idea. I I can’t remember. Todd be fair, folks, we watched this movie like a month ago. Like, we we watched it, and then we somehow had some technical and couldn’t talk about it. And then, we lost Erin Moran, and we wanted to do something for her. And, so it’s been, like, 3 weeks since I’ve seen this movie, but these, these little puppet spiders and that’s the thing, like, I feel like the movie is so ambitious with, the special effects and things. Like, they want to do so much, but the budget had to have been relatively low.   I guess comparatively with these, kung fu movies that they had been making, the budget for this was actually really high. But even still, you can see, you know, the the cracks or whatever. And these spiders, these little puppet spiders, like, I guess they’re supposed to drink the venom of the snake, but, like, they crawl they crawl up to the venom of the snake and then they, like, drink it with straws. Like like why is it so weird? I don’t know. It doesn’t make any sense. And you were describing like this black magic temple or whatever. In all fairness, there are some things in this movie that like, if you just looked at a still frame of it, look really cool. Like, this black magic temple, it’s nothing special as far as, you know, it’s it’s not CGI, of course, you know, it’s it’s not something that’s really expensive, but they do some really interesting things with lighting and, the imagery is neat.   Like, I feel like in this black magic temple, there’s, like, some big kind of evil statue in the back. Like, I don’t know if it’s supposed to be the devil or or something from Buddhist culture that I don’t know, but obviously, like, this big demonic thing in the back. And then in front of it, I feel like sitting in chairs are all of these different totems, and like the chairs maybe are hands or something. I don’t know. The the point is it looks, the set piece looks cool. And so there was some stuff going on here. They obviously were concerned with artistic design. 

Todd:  Mhmm. 

Craig:  And and on its own, you know, like in freeze frames, some of this stuff looks really neat. It’s neat to look at. I can imagine how if I had I didn’t research this movie at all before we watched it, but if I had, you know, some of the still frames, I would have been intrigued. I would have been intrigued enough to wanna watch it just because some of the imagery is is really bizarre and out there and interesting. And honestly, as much as I don’t like this movie and will never watch it again, I I have to give it some some credit, in that regard. There’s some visually interesting stuff going on. 

Todd:  Now at this point, was this the point though where you decided you didn’t like this movie or is that coming later? 

Craig:  I don’t know. I have no I can’t answer that question. I I think it was later because we we really haven’t gotten to the gross out stuff yet. And I I probably have already said, I guess all of these gross out elements were were really, you know, common to this genre of movies. So the people going to see these movies would know to expect it. It just caught me so off guard and made me wanna freaking barf. So I I don’t know. But I guess, you know, to to kind of finish up this super long flashback, the spiders that have now drank venom out of a straw, the evil wizard takes them to the monastery and he does some, like, Spider Man stuff where he, like, crawls up on the ceiling and, he lowers these spiders down onto the monk who is sleeping.   And the spiders inject the venom into the monk’s eyes and it blinds the monk and, like, kills him, but it’s kind of like Princess Bride where he’s only mostly dead. And, and and that’s why now our protagonist has been summoned here because as it’s explained to him after this little 15 minute flashback, well, he has to go see the monk and the monk is like mostly dead. Doctor. But they’ve got him like set up like, I don’t know, like a shrine or something. And and the the guy goes and talks to him and this this mummified monk tells him in a previous life we were twins and so now I need you to break this spell so that I can be immortal. And if you don’t break the spell, if I die, you’ll die too. So our main guy, our protagonist, then has to has to become a monk first, and there’s this whole initiation process, which I kinda liked. It reminded me of, like, eighties montages, like, we’re gonna become a monk.   Here we go. And then the goal is that he has to defeat this evil wizard, and if he defeats the evil wizard, then the monk will be restored and everything will be good. 

Todd:  Now my favorite part is that this guy, Todd Hung, he at first, he refuses. He just wants to go back to Hong Kong until he spits up an eel, and then he decides he’s gonna help. Yeah. Oh, okay. 

Craig:  Never mind. Yeah. Right. I mean, if if if you’re gonna be throwing up eels, I mean, that’s something pretty undesirable, I guess. You gotta do what you gotta do if that’s gonna happen. And and then that sets it up for really what is kind of the remainder of the movie. And, again, it’s broken like you said, it almost feels like 2 or 3 different movies because there’s the whole monk initiation, which is, you know, kind of a big deal. Like, they make him sit in a river full of leeches, and he has to try to maintain his calm and peace while he’s being bitten and and sucked on by all these leeches.   And then there’s this weird ass ceremony where he sits in this giant urn. He sits in this giant urn, and there’s these monks sitting all around them, and all the monks are holding ropes. And, like, he all the ropes go into the urn and he’s holding onto all of them and like they’re chanting and I feel like eventually you see, you know, through light effects that like I guess their essence or their power or something like travels through these ropes into the urn and then the urn starts glowing and he starts glowing, and eventually the urn blows up. And I guess that’s how you become a monk. Yeah. 

Todd:  That’s that’s the standard ceremony in Thailand. I I went there once. I witnessed it. It’s pretty interesting. 

Craig:  Yeah. From the tour. I mean yeah. I mean, I feel like I know so much more about Buddhism now. Where was this in my world religions class in college? I know, man. They left out all the interesting parts. 

Todd:  We’d all be Buddhist if this were the case. 

Craig:  I know. Right? And and that sets it up. That that whole montage sets it up for this battle between the the evil wizard and and hung or or or whatever his name is. 

Todd:  His name is now Kaidi Balu. Right? 

Craig:  Right. He’s got a new name, which makes it even more easy to keep track of. And and he shaved his head. And that was another funny part, like, when when they told him he had to become a monk, he’s like, oh, man. I’m gonna have to shave my head. 

Todd:  That was the case I was concerned. 

Craig:  Okay. And so when they confirm it as a monk, he has to go through this ceremony where he professes that he’s not broken any of Buddha’s rules. And one of those rules is that he has hasn’t had sex, that he’s been abstinent. And it’s not really important in that part, but it becomes important later on. But it sets it all up for this duel. And I have to say, you know, I appreciate the setup. It’s interesting like, okay, so the good guy and the evil weirdo monk meet up on what I can only describe is what looks like a sound stage because it like, it’s just this big black space. Like, I I really didn’t have any sense of where they were supposed to be.   I don’t know if they were supposed to be in the in the monastery or if, this was all going on in their minds. Like, I don’t know because, like, the it’s just this big black space and and warlock is this great big huge full moon, and they have this battle that goes on for a really long time. And it’s so weird, like it’s just the evil monk or evil wizard or whatever he is throwing different spells and entities at, the good guy and the good guy deflecting them and stuff. But that doesn’t begin to do it justice. Like there’s so much weird shit going on here, that it’s hard to describe. And it goes on for so long. Please, Todd, provide us with some of the details. 

Todd:  Oh, I don’t know. Like, first, he’s throwing, like, animated, you know, lasers and things at him, and then he’s surrounded by these crocodile skulls, and he waves an incantation across these crocodile skulls, and they start chattering. And more of these bats come out of him, And the bats all fly toward the monk, but the monk ends up burning them by manifesting a protective urn around himself. There are a lot of people in urns. Urn is a continual theme throughout this movie that we’re gonna have to unpack, the significance of later. My favorite part, though, is when he says, Todd of the dark, grant power to this rice, and he tosses rice all over the crocodile skulls, and the skulls themselves all go towards the monk. And, of course, he deflects those up as well. And then, he breaks out what he calls, at least in the translation, his secret weapon, which is, it’s this thing that goes toward the monk and then something rises up out of it and it turns out it’s this giant head of what looks like a Martian looking creature.   It’s got these big eyes kind of like an exposed brain. It’s green. 

Craig:  This is where things start getting gross. And again, I I guess that this is common in these types of movies, but the bad wizard eats a bunch of guts and then pukes them out and then eats them again. And then when it once he does that, he says, I’m full of power now. Surely, I can beat you. Again, this is the translation. I have no idea what he really says. And then first, you you talked about, like, there’s, like, the that floating alien head thing, which is super bizarre, and and the good monk just, like, beats it immediately. And that’s, I guess, the the evil wizard’s secret weapon.   The other thing you were talking about is he rips his own head off. The guts or or entrails or whatever, like, hanging down from his own head, and his own head, like, tries to strangle, the the good monk, then the sun comes up and the bad guy dies, and the monk who told the whole flashback story tells our good guy, You’ve broken the spell. The abbot can be immortal. You can go home now. And he does. And like that and he goes home and bangs that girl again. Like like and that feels like, oh, okay. The movie is surely over.   No. No. No. Like, like, let’s just go ahead and do the sequel here real quick in the next 40 minutes, which is oh, Todd. My, oh, my notes are boobs and bush exclamation point. As soon as he gets home, the girl is there waiting for him naked. And so he just walks in and he’s like, I was a monk for 3 months. And he grabs her and they do their business. 

Todd:  Oh, now come on. You’ve gotta do justice to the dialogue here. She’s with Showery. He walks in, and she says, where were you? I haven’t seen you in a while. And he says, I’ve seen through the vanity of the world. And she says, I don’t I don’t believe that. You’re out messing with chicks. Don’t give me any STDs. 

Craig:  Yeah. Don’t give me any STDs. Okay. Let’s let’s bang in the shower. 

Todd:  Yeah. You should know it’s a mistake because he’s a monk, and he gave that valve chastity. Now I saw that coming. 

Craig:  Yeah. I guess I saw it coming. I mean, I guess I knew that it was a mistake, but at the same time, I didn’t know where this was going because you’ve already beaten the main antagonist. Like, it it’s over. Right? Everything’s good. But no. Then we cut to my absolute favorite 

Todd:  part of the whole 

Craig:  cut that sarcasm as thick as you like. But apparently this evil wizard was not alone. Apparently he’s in some sort of cult of evil wizards. And we cut to 3 more evil bad guys who conduct some sort of weird ceremony where first they’re on like a crocodile farm and they collect one of the crocodiles and they kill it and they cut it open, and they pull out all of its guts, and then they I don’t know if there were eggs inside it or if they had eggs, they smash some eggs or or something, and they put this dead body inside and then sew it back up. And then we cut back to the kung fu story just in case we had forgotten about that. 

Todd:  Baobao and Chun Hung are now on the I guess it’s been 3 months. And now, they’re back in the ring, and they’re getting this rematch. And they’re fighting each other, and it looks like Chanhong is winning. However, it’s cutting back between this and the ceremony going on between the bad guys. And what ends up happening, is that this they pull this wormy bottle from this alligator, and then there’s more stuff to do. So this body is sitting in front of them, and it’s got all these worms crawling all over it. And the first of the the guy Well, I guess I’d I guess you could say the magicians here or the evil cult guys all line up behind the Todd. Mhmm.   And they have like a banana leaf plate. And the first one takes out a banana, unpeels the banana, takes the inside of it out, throws it away, and then sticks the whole peel in his mouth and chews it up. And then he spits it out into the plate, hands over to the next guy, who then he eats the previously spit out piece of banana peel and chews it up and swallows it. And there’s a whole bunch of this. I think I’ve actually deliberately blocked it out of my memory, all the details of exactly what was happening here. It was Yeah. 

Craig:  You’re making me wanna puke just describing it. It was so nasty. And, like, you can tell that these these actors had to do that. You know? Like Yeah. They are literally eating oh, Todd. I could All 

Todd:  kinds of 

Craig:  like you, I believe. I couldn’t handle it. I I couldn’t I literally couldn’t watch it. I had to turn away and wait for it to be over. 

Todd:  Yeah. It was it was basically 2 guys, 1 cup, essentially. 

Craig:  Yeah. Disgusting. 

Todd:  But all of this serves to bring this body to life, and it’s a woman. This kind of mysterious, I guess, sorceress or something is brought up, and she walks toward this thing that they’ve created. It’s it’s like a voodoo doll of Hung, and they go in front of it and they say, alright. Now, do your business. And she has these long fingernails and she stabs the thing through the eyes. And now, Hung, who is beating the Thai boxer, starts seeing visions. He starts seeing maggots in his eyes. He’s he’s flailing about.   He’s no longer in control in the ring, and he runs out of the ring, during the middle of the match and into, the locker room where he’s going from the mirror to mirror. Meanwhile, the magician lady is stabbing the this voodoo doll, and and he’s completely lost control. So he decides he needs to return to Thailand. Yep. There’s I I thought maybe she was gonna kill him or this was gonna have something, like, lasting effect, but I guess it was just to scare him or something. And so, he goes back to Thailand, and the abbot right off the bat asked him if he broke any any rules, And he says, no. Of course, I didn’t break any rules. He says, alright.   We’re going to arrange for another duel. Mhmm. And but first, they have to go find some things. They have to go find a mush they have to it’s kind of a scavenger hunt. They have to go and find a mushroom tree that’s growing from this giant Buddha statue, they go down it. 

Craig:  Which is really cool looking I thought. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. 

Craig:  It was like it’s it was like this big giant Buddha face, like, built into the ground. And and it was I I don’t know where it was, and I don’t know how they did the effects. I don’t know if this was an actual place or if it was something that they fabricated, but it was really cool looking. I I will give them credit there. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s it’s really cool. Yeah. I think they made it, you know, they had to. It’s it’s a it’s a pretty big set. It’s really cool. They descend down into the eye where there’s a tree growing and there’s this really rare mushroom, I think, growing on the tree. So they grab this mushroom.   Somehow, they make a necklace out of it. This is, I guess, a ceremony. Details details, guys. 

Craig:  It’s just so funny because it’s so convoluted. Like, so they have to okay. So what they’re getting from this mushroom tree is, like, the essence of iron. And the monk that’s helping, Hung get it, he’s like, This essence of iron will make you really strong. When the time comes, put the amulet in your body. Now again, we’re reading subtitles, so I have no idea if this is really what it means, but in the subtitles it says, Put the amulet in your body. And then Hung says, Will it come out? And the guy goes, Yeah, out your eyes. I had no idea what was going on.   And I really think that it has to be a flaw in the translation because he never actually he doesn’t really stick the whole amulet in his body, does he? Like, he just takes whatever essence it is and and and like cuts a little thing in his skin and pours it in there. Oh my Todd. But it was so funny. Put the amulet in your Todd. Will it come out? Yeah. Out your eyes. Okay. That sounds great.   Moving on. 

Todd:  All we know is that based on the ancient Buddhist traditions, he has done what he needs to do. And so 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  He goes in front again, the I guess he’s getting his power back up or something in order to fight the wizard. And so he goes back and has one last little ceremony in front of the Buddha statue. As part of the ceremony, again, like before, they ask him, have you broken any of the rules? And he says, no no no no no, and he gets to the carnal pleasures one. He kinda looks up, kinda left and right, and goes, nope, haven’t broken that one either. And the light goes out on the candle, and the Buddha gets really angry. And they say, you’re lying to the Buddha. Then the temple gets trashed, but he’s told that he will die until he finds a relic, which is the golden ashes. Mhmm.   So because he’s lied to the Buddha, I guess you still have a chance if you find the golden ashes. 

Craig:  So now which which are not hard to find because you’re like a big tourist attraction in, in, in Kathmandu. So they’re off to Kathmandu. No. I really like Like the bad lady? 

Todd:  I really liked this part. Really? Well, they’re in Kathmandu. You know, part of the fun of this is kinda seeing exotic places, and I have to say for for a film that is even taking place in Hong Kong, I think Todd the Hong Kong people, Kathmandu is pretty exotic because they’re clearly over exoticizing here. There’s so many shots of of them going through the town and shots of people and beggars on the street and vendors, and kids, and it’s kind of fun to see, but again, it’s clear that it’s like 10 minutes of someone’s vacation videos, you know, going through Kathmandu. It goes on for a while. But you’re right. Yeah. He goes to this giant Buddhist temple, and you’re right.   It’s a total tourist attraction because there’s a guide in there who’s giving a long explanation about it and stuff. So when he ends up in there, he cuts into his arm, and he pours his magic necklace liquid out, from inside. There’s a close-up on our gong. I think he just basically sets off some supernatural alarm system. 

Craig:  Yeah. Something like that. I don’t know. 

Todd:  The woman arrives again. She conjures a giant crocodile. 

Craig:  Right. And it it’s just like dual part 2. Like, now he has to duel, with this lady. And just like with the last thing, it’s the last Todd, it’s just this lady throwing one thing at him, after another. And so at one point, she pins him down and she, like, squeezes his head between her thighs because, of course, I mean, why wouldn’t she? And then, she like drops these furry caterpillars on his face, and they go in his ears and nose. And then, the sun comes up, and some kind of weird dust appears, and then this weird old monk appears. Like, I I have no idea who this is or it’s supposed to be. It’s like like he’s like the embodiment of the statue or something.   I I don’t know. And and then on 

Todd:  a chair. It’s like a little carnival ride. He comes down on his little chair. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. And and then the the evil lady wraps the monk up in her hair, but then somehow he skins her. 

Todd:  It’s like she turns inside 

Craig:  out or something. Yeah. Yeah. Like, she turns inside out, and she’s obviously just wearing, like, a Todd suit, but it looks like it’s like her whole, you know, vascular system you can see. And and and then, like, she starts peeing or pooping all this like. 

Todd:  Oh, gosh. No. 

Craig:  I can’t believe. Oh, I can’t believe we’re we’re talking about this. It sounds so strange. But she, like, pees or poops, like, all this blue goo, and then she gives she gives birth to these, like, 3 little balls or something. And then, and then, and then it turn those 3 balls, like, grow up into the, the 3 evil priests from before, like they’ve been hiding inside her, but at first, they’re all wrapped in like saran wrap. 

Todd:  Saran wrap. That was what you know, at this point, the budget had to be getting pretty darn low. 

Craig:  Oh, god. Yeah. And then and then I I I kid you not, folks. And then 2 of the bad guys bleed into the chest of the third one, and then 3 and then 3 furry dinosaurs come out come out and shoot lasers into the Buddha’s eyes, and that hurts the monks eyes And then some like, this big, statue kills the dinosaurs. And and then the iron that he had dripped into his his, arm comes out, like, in the form of needles out of his eyes. But apparently, he has won the duel and, the abbot is restored and everything’s fine. That’s basically how it goes. Oh, god.   Oh, so weird. It really, really has to be the the most bizarre movie I’ve ever seen. It’s so weird. And like, you would think that I could appreciate that and be like, Oh man, I’m so glad I saw that. It was so weird. But no. No. I could have gone my entire life without seeing that movie and I could have died a happy man.   It was it was it was so weird. And the fact that it’s not, like, some sort of weird anomaly just kinda blows my mind that, like, this was, like, a style of movie that was popular for a while. Oh, gosh. I I just can’t imagine. 

Todd:  To be fair, this one is a little more over the top than most of those movies are. I mean, this one really takes about 5 of those films and throws them all together, and then puts in furry dinosaurs, and, you know, covers them in saran wrap. This is I’ve seen a lot of these kind of films, but this this really tops them all. It’s it’s pretty notorious. I think, you know, if you go online, you start reading about this, there are people with definite opinions about it and interest in it. It’s got, I guess, a kind of a little bit of a fan following, wouldn’t you say? Of sorts. 

Craig:  Yeah. Like a cult following. Yeah. I I guess, you know, I don’t know. When did we say it came out? 1980 3? 

Todd:  3. Yeah. 

Craig:  I guess it, and for 1983, I mean, the effects are weird and corny, but, you know, we saw weird 

Todd:  and corny effects in 

Craig:  the states in 1983, so whatever. But I guess it didn’t really, you know, nobody in the west had had really seen it. You know, nobody in the west had had really seen it until it was released, in the states in 2,006. And I and I think that probably more than anything, it’s an oddity, and that is why it’s kind of picked up kind of a cult status. And and I can see that. It is weird. And, you know, if if you’re interested in strange and bizarre cinema, I mean, by all means, check this out because it is strange and bizarre, but not my cup of tea by any stretch of the imagination. 

Todd:  I have to say, I could’ve I could’ve enjoyed it for what it was if it weren’t for the eating and regurgitating stuff. 

Craig:  Yeah. I think that was what really turned me off too. It it was just too much. I I couldn’t watch it. 

Todd:  Yeah. It is just disgusting. It’s kinda like, Pink Flamingos. You’ve seen Pink Flamingos at the very end? 

Craig:  Yeah. No. But I know I know the and and that’s that’s the reason that I haven’t watched it is because I know that that dog shit thing happens. I don’t wanna sound pretentious here as an actor, but, you know, like, I do community theater, as an actor. I’m sitting here thinking about those actors that had to do that. And I’m like, oh, that is too nasty. I can’t imagine being asked to do that or asking somebody to do that or doing it. And I think that maybe that pulled me out a little bit because I was thinking about the logistics of it like, oh, Todd, those poor guys.   I mean, bravo to you for being committed to your craft or whatever, but I’ll pass. 

Todd:  I’m not 

Craig:  If that’s what it takes to be a cinema in in China, I don’t think I’m cut out for it. 

Todd:  Definitely, like you said, it’s an oddity. And, if what we’ve said piques your interest in the slightest, and I would say get to the point at which you can see regurgitation starting to happen. Maybe fast forward a few minutes past that, and then continue to watch. I mean, everything we’ve described doesn’t even hold a candle to the reality of what No. No. Absolutely not. There’s no way that you can do it justice 

Craig:  just talking about it. And, you know, Absolutely not. There’s no way that you can do it justice just talking about it. And you know, I feel like I should be fair and say that there really is some interesting imagery. There are some interesting set pieces. It was ambitious and that was the thing that I think that if anything I can appreciate about it. It was ambitious. Like, I feel like they were going, you know, this is the 19 eighties when some of these big budget things in in America were coming out like, oh, I don’t know, like the Indiana Jones movies and, the Star Wars movies.   And and they were really trying to do these kind of big epic things that, people hadn’t seen before. And I get the sense that that’s what they were going for here. Like, it was supposed you know, in in some regards, it it’s a little bit reminiscent of, like, Temple of Doom. You know, there’s there’s some gross weird stuff going on in that movie Todd, But this just pushes it to an entirely different level and what I was uncomfortable with and maybe that’s what they were going for. I mean maybe they were trying to make the audience uncomfortable with these things. I can’t imagine what else the goal would have been. And if that’s what they were going for, they succeeded, Todd I enjoy watching it? No. 

Todd:  Yeah. It it kind of it kind of pushes the boundaries of what you consider entertainment. Right? It’s certainly not scary. Let’s put it that way. There’s nothing scary about it. It is almost a dare that you could sit down with your friends and dare them to watch this without looking away. But, yeah, when you consider why do you watch films, if you watch a film to be entertained, I could say this film gets is pretty entertaining up to a point, and then it kind of crosses a line and becomes just gross. 

Craig:  Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. 

Todd:  Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us on iTunes, Google Play. We’re on Stitcher, anywhere your favorite podcasts are. You can also find our page on Facebook where you could like us there, leave a comment, and let us know what other film you’d like us to review in the future. Until that point, I’m Todd 

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

It’s only the second PG-rated film we have reviewed (the first being Gremlins), but that doesn’t mean it didn’t pack a punch. By the end, we were unexpectedly touched by this dated but unique “killer baby” movie.

Episode 82, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podacst

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  So, Craig, we have a little bit of an announcement to make. It’s exciting. In my life, things have been changing quite a bit. You know, first, we moved to China, and then not long after we moved to China, we found out that my wife, my wife and I, by the way, have been married for about 15 years. We found out she was pregnant, and we have given birth to a nice baby boy. 

Craig:  Yay. Yay. If I had a cigar, I’d be smoking it. 

Todd:  Thank you, my friend. Thank you. So it’s been a really nice exciting addition to our life, and we thought what better way to announce that to our listeners than to, watch a movie about a demon child. 

Craig:  This was my idea, folks, so, don’t don’t blame Todd. And and even when I told him, I’m like, I don’t know if it’s distasteful or not. Let’s do it anyway.

Todd:  Oh, heck no. It seems only fitting. It at least, we we it’s kind of like, you know, you go grocery shopping after you’ve had a really big meal. This is kind of the kind of the same deal. I think we we maybe we purposely waited, to watch these films, until after the baby was born, just to make sure everything was gonna be okay. So, you know, we could have chosen a number of things. You’d rattled off The Omen, Rosemary’s Baby is the obvious choice. But we kinda tend to be into a little more schlock on this, on this show.   We, at least those are the ones we have a little bit more fun with from time to time. And there’s one movie that has been on my list forever, and I don’t think Craig you had ever seen before either. But I think we both had wanted to see it and that is the 1974’s, It’s Alive. Mhmm. So, yeah. This one’s been on my radar for quite some time and I think it’s because I always grew up sort of knowing about this movie. I mean, I was born in 1978. And so as we were kinda crushing the threshold from the seventies and the eighties, my parents had a lot of stuff around the house like, I don’t know, like from movies from the seventies.   And it’s alive. I think my parents maybe had the soundtrack to it. And so, you know, look looking through our record collection and things like that, I think I had been I had seen the cover for it at times. So just this this crib with a claw reaching over the side of it. And it always been intriguing to me. I knew I knew the movie that existed probably even saw it on the shelves of the video store, but never actually got a chance to sit down and watch it. So, this was the time. How about you, Craig? Had you seen this before or 

Craig:  Nope. And I’m I’m really surprised that neither of us had seen it because this is one of those ones that, you know, we say it all all the time, but you and I grew up in a, video store culture, and this is one of the ones that, you know, I saw on the shelves and, you know, that box art like you said with the crib with the claw kinda coming out, or excuse me, stroller, whatever it is. It was always intriguing and not just not just this one, but then there were a couple of sequels too that used the similar imagery. And, it Todd did always intrigued me, and and yet somehow I had never seen it until yesterday. So, no. It was new to me too. 

Todd:  And I guess this film eventually did pretty well. Obviously, well enough to warrant a couple of sequels. But initially, the, you know, after it was made, there were some the studios changed hands a little bit. There was some shake up in the executive branch or whatever. And, people the studio itself kind of lost interest in the movie, which surprises me a little bit. But in any case, it eventually got released almost 3 years, I think, after its initial release in like one theater in Chicago. They came out with a pretty impressive little marketing campaign with a little slogan, that drew people in. And end up making a little over 7,000,000, which I think is pretty good for the time.   And again, enough Todd to warrant some sequels. And the writer director is Larry Cohen. And Larry Cohen himself has done a ton of things. I mean, if you go to IMDB, you’ll see that he has got over 80 writing credits. A lot of it, in TV, number of films. He tends to be in the more horror slash sci fi slash, Twilight Zone y type crime kind of things that he’s done in the past. And his movies, you know, you’ve you’ve heard of him. He did the stuff.   He did Maniac Cop. He even did a blaxploitation flick called Black Caesar, of all things. I mean And I think Richard Rountree was in it. I mean, it’s it’s it’s so weird, the variety of stuff. And this guy started out as a page at NBC and so that he started writing for television and just worked his way up the ranks there. He even did a remake of It’s Alive, back in the early aughts, I think. That I think kinda came and went as well. Was there any did you hear anything about that or 

Craig:  Yeah. I didn’t know he did it. You know, funnily enough, I’ve seen the remake. 

Todd:  Oh, you have? 

Craig:  Yeah. I I have. I remember seeing it. I don’t know. It it wasn’t when it first came out. It was on Netflix or something I when I saw it, and this doesn’t speak much to the quality of the film, I guess, because I I really don’t remember it at all, except for that I I know that I saw it. And watching, the original definitely kinda brought back some memories of the remake, but the remake as is often the case with, these older subgenre kind of movies. It it just it wasn’t this movie, if you can say anything for it, it it is unique and, I think that, the original or or excuse me, the remake just didn’t really capture anything special.   I mean, it was just kinda ho It it was alright. I don’t remember much about it. It was bloody and and stupid. That’s another thing, this is another first for us, I think, if I remember correctly. Because if I if I remember correctly, this is the first PG movie we’ve ever reviewed. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. You’re right. 

Craig:  And and I when I when we looked it up, I was surprised. I was like, PG, wow. Like, we’re we’re usually dealing in at least PG 13, if not beyond that. And and I was surprised because, really, I don’t know if I would say it’s scary. It’s unsettling. More than scary, it’s unsettling. But I I was still surprised to find that it was PG. I know that I looked, I haven’t seen the sequel, there are 2 sequels, and I haven’t seen either one, and I know that the next one was rated R, but I was reading and in viewer reviews, said that the sequel is no worse when it comes to gore or sex or violence or language than the, original.   Really? And yet it got an R rating. I imagine it’s probably just because this one came out and was placed in the horror genre, got the rating that it did, but then the next one just being a horror sequel, I think, probably got the R rating just for falling into that category. But, yeah, a PG rating for this one, which is interesting just because I’m surprised that it got through the ratings board with a PG, just based on the subject matter. I mean, it it’s weird, you know, an evil baby, you know, It’s just kind of a weird, it’s just kind of a weird subject matter, I guess. But, Yeah. I don’t know. I’ll I’ll I’ll be interested to see what you thought of this movie because frankly, when I was watching it, I liked the premise. It was an interesting premise.   I felt like maybe it dragged on a little bit too long. And it’s not long, it’s only an hour and a half. But I kind of found myself looking at my watch and I was thinking, you know, the whole time, oh, this is a little long. It could have been an hour. But then when I got to the end, the very end, I was a little bit more affected, than I expected to be as a new dad. Because really, the movie is really kind of centers around the dad, the new dad. And so, I’ll be interested to see what you thought. 

Todd:  Well, you know, I I felt exactly the same way, and and I didn’t know if it was just because, I’m a new dad or what, you know. But, I’m I’m glad to hear you felt a little similarly. It it’s different from a lot of the other, like, evil kid movies are not that unusual. I mean, you go to Rosemary’s Baby and that’s but but but this is different because it’s, Rosemary’s baby is really about, like, the spawn of Satan, you know. And Right. Right. So that’s kind of a whole different deal. And then you get something like the omen or the good son, and that’s really more about a troubled and disturbed child.   Right? Right. Right. But this is the first time where it’s, like, the baby’s born, and the baby is, like, not of this earth, almost when otherwise the parents are completely normal and there doesn’t seem to be a really good explanation for why. So it is unique. You’re right. And it’s a little jarring in that sense, more jarring than I thought it would be. I mean, I knew what we were coming into. But I guess I didn’t expect to be as moved by it by the end of it as I was.   So, you know, like you said, it’s a little plodding and it sort of has the feel of when older, like, made for TV movie or like a really long episode of something from, you know, a seventies show. And a lot of that I think has to do with the score and the way it’s paced. Honestly, the minute the score came on and and the person who scored this was is did did a lot of scoring for television, especially, Alfred Hitchcock Presents series. It kind of sounds like a 1950s style b movie. 

Craig:  Mhmm. It 

Todd:  really has that feel to it where everything is scored throughout and it has 

Craig:  That was good. That was good. Good job. 

Todd:  Thank you. Yeah. I thought so. It it has that motif. Right? 

Craig:  Yeah. No. Actually, I I I think the score is really strong. And this guy who did it, Bernard Herrmann, I get like you said, he did a lot of Hitchcock. He is behind the score for, Psycho, and and and did a lot of other big name stuff too. So, it feels like 1974. And because it feels like 1974, it feels a little bit cheaper. But I don’t think that that’s necessarily because I think it’s because of the time, not necessarily because of any other aesthetic.   But but the the score, like, it’s like this orchestral score behind the whole thing. And, I really I really enjoyed it. 

Todd:  I did too. And the other thing that I think makes it feel 19 seventies is it has this almost a lack of a sense of urgency about it. And I was trying to figure out if this was a good thing or a bad thing, but there’s almost a reality to the movie. In some ways, it felt overwrought, but in other ways, it felt completely not overwrought. Mhmm. And let’s just get into it, and maybe we can pick that apart as to what we’re talking about. So, basically, it jumps right in. It’s evening time, and this was very familiar to me.   There’s a a woman and a man who were sleeping in bed, and then what, you know, Frank and Lenore. 2 very white bread American names. And Frank Yep. Wakes up and, Lenore says, I think it’s happening. And Frank’s like, oh, really? And he kinda gets a smile on his face. And they get up and they go into Chris’s room and they say, yep, the the baby’s coming. So, you know, they pack their things. And immediately, I said, this is gotta be one of the most accurate portrayals of childbirth that I’ve ever seen in a movie.   Because, you know, what you normally see in the movies is this overly dramatic, like, oh, no, the baby’s coming. Oh, my Todd, my water broke. Like, get in the taxi quick, and they’re running, and they’re throwing things together. It’s like it’s a sudden urgent thing. And anyone who’s ever had a kid can tell you it is not that urgent. Like, you could be in labor for, like, 22 hours. Like Right. The basically, the hospital tells you once you start feeling contractions, you basically start timing them.   And only when they get to this, you know, certain length of time for so much time do you even think about going to the hospital? And even then, don’t run, take a shower, get something to eat Right. Because you’re probably gonna be there forever. And the fact that these this is their second kid, right, they have the son Craig, who’s probably, I don’t know, 7 or 8, maybe even a little older. 

Craig:  He’s 11. Oh, he’s I That’s right. It’s mentioned, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. Not that that’s at all important, but you weren’t paying attention. You’re right. You’re right. He’s 11 years old. 

Todd:  I was like, yeah. That’s exactly how it is. And they’re just very chill about it, and they kinda go into the baby’s room, make sure that they’ve got a crib there, you know. They give us kind of a little tour of the house, and we meet the family a little bit as they’re packing up and they go to the hospital. And then it it’s the movie shows its age in so many ways, but it definitely shows its age in the way that the pregnancy is treated because it’s immediately and this is what they used to do, you know, they would separate the men from the women. Uh-huh. Pregnancy was the woman’s job, and she went in, alone with the doctor and the nurse and had the baby, whereas dad would sit out in the lounge with all the other expecting fathers, you know, smoking and 

Craig:  And smoke cigarettes. 

Todd:  Yeah. Waiting nervously to find out that everything was okay, you know. Definitely not how it’s done today, but deaf but absolutely the way that they felt it should be done even just not even that long ago, man. I mean, maybe it 

Craig:  I know. I mean, these are our parents. 

Todd:  Right? So, anyway, they drop Chris off at Charlie’s as a neighbor. So they’ve clearly, you know, worked all this out. And the neighbor is really nice guy and more than happy to, to take the kid. And Todd luck. See you guys later. And in just a very quiet and subdued way, they go to the hospital. Even though it’s nighttime and it seems like this hospital has nothing going on, there just happened to be, like, 3 other dads also waiting in the waiting room. But even when the mother, when Leonor is taken in, she keeps remarking, this just feels different.   This feels different. 

Clip:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And and when she’s in the delivery room, the doctor’s almost like an asshole to her. 

Clip:  We’ll we’ll check you before we really do anything.   You are. I just   You’re doing just great. Just relax.   It’s really good. It’s really been different than Chris.   On your chair. We’ll do ours now.   Something’s wrong. I know something’s wrong.   It is nothing really wrong, honey. It’s just a very, very big baby.   I I know.   Gonna be fine, but I need your help. You know what you have? Wrong? How big was your last baby? How big was your last baby? Did you say   £7.4 ounces. I told you that this baby was different than Craig.   This baby is just gigantic. 

Todd:  Again, so unlike most pregnancies as they’re portrayed in the movies. This is so like how it is. You settle in and you kind of feel like you’re in it for the long haul. I mean, my wife’s labor took, like, 6 hours, and then she ended up having to have emergency c section at the end of it. You know what I mean? You just don’t know how these things are gonna go, and it just takes time, and it’s slow. But for whatever reason, she feels like things are a little different and the doctors, you know, basically telling her don’t worry about it, and he’s gonna remove the the head with the forceps. And I think before we get to the point where the baby comes out, we have to say a little bit about the character Frank. It’s an interesting contrast that they portray of him as opposed to the other fathers in this waiting room.   Whereas the other fathers seemed like really nervous and one of them’s like getting up and sitting down and getting up and he’s trying to buy something from the vending machine and he can’t. He starts kicking the machine. He’s like, it ain’t my quarters. You know, Frank just sort of calmly stands up, walks over, pats him on the shoulder and says, here are your 2 quarters. Go ahead. Why don’t you have a seat? You know, let’s play some poker. 

Clip:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  Throughout this whole movie, he’s really seems to be the kind of guy who’s trying to be cool and calm and aloof about absolutely everything. Whether it’s a a persona he is he feels like he has to put on, or whether it is, just the way his character is. He’s a PR guy. I felt like the character Frank was really well drawn in this movie. 

Craig:  Yeah. I don’t know. He’s he’s, and that’s the thing. I I feel like they’re they’re trying to portray both of these couple or both of the members of this couple, both Frank and Lenore. I feel like they’re trying Todd, portray them as these are normal people. You know, like, this is, this is a guy who works, in PR and he’s, you know, kind of the man of the family. And, Leonor is very much the wife and the mother. And there’s an interesting dynamic between them.   Like, when she’s in labor, she says something like 

Clip:  Oh, I’m glad I’m glad we decided to have the baby aren’t you, sweetheart?   We both want it. Don’t worry about it.   It’s not gonna it’s not gonna tie you down, is it, sweetheart? Are gonna feel trapped like you did last time? 

Craig:  Like like this pregnancy is something that was unexpected and and and maybe something that potentially didn’t necessarily cause conflict between them but something that they had to consider. Later on after the baby is born and they’re questioning, well, because of what happens, the cops end up showing up, but the doctor says to them, you didn’t think anything was wrong. You, 8 months ago, you had inquired about abortion. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And Frank Frank just immediately pipes in and says, well, you know, it’s just this day and age. I mean, that’s something to consider. You know, we it was a matter of convenience, but we decided to have the baby. So you get the impression that, you know, this was something that they had thought about and considered, that they they they’ve got this 11 year old kid. They I would guess they’re in their, what, like, mid forties, maybe? Yeah. 

Todd:  Seems like 

Craig:  and and so, you know, maybe they weren’t expecting another baby, and it it was something that they had to make a decision about, but they decided to have it. But even when the baby is coming, she’s still concerned, like, is everything gonna be okay or, you know, she’s worried about how her husband’s gonna react. And and I liked the way that they were portrayed, and I especially liked not only the way they were portrayed in the beginning, but how it became very believable that after things went wrong 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  The way that they reacted to it felt I don’t know if it necessarily felt realistic, but it felt believable. You know, like, I I believed these characters. What happens is Leonor is in there. She’s, you know, the doctors and nurses are all around and and she’s dilated 10 and the doctor says, Wow. This baby is gigantic. It’s probably at least 10 or £11 and it has a ginormous head. And so he’s down there. And again, like, I do think that it speaks to the time because it’s almost like, you know, she’s there and he’s talking to her, but it’s almost like he’s working on a car.   You know? Like like like, she’s like, she’s not a person at all. 

Clip:  Now we’re just putting forceps on the baby’s head. Just breathe deep. And don’t push, just pin. I was just easing the baby out. Love it. Bye. Now we just cut you. You didn’t feel that, did you? No.   Okay. Fine. Now the baby will be out in just about 30 seconds. 

Craig:  I would hope that in today’s day and age, that a doctor might say, here’s what we’re going to do. Yeah. Be prepared instead of just, oh, we cut you. You didn’t feel that right? Uh-huh. So anyway, the next thing that we see after that is one of the doctors stumbles out into the hallway where Frank is waiting, and and, he’s all bloody on his neck and and he collapses outside. And and Frank runs into the delivery room, and all of the doctors and nurses are dead on the ground. Instant. Yeah.   Like, yeah. Like, instantly, like, a freaking bomb went off of there. 

Todd:  That’s right. 

Craig:  And not only that. And again, this is something else that I don’t know if this is a product of the time or what, but Leonora is, like, still strapped to the bed. Yes. Like like like, she’s she’s got, like, leather restraints on her arms. Like, what Todd they think that she was gonna do? That’s a good point. They deduce that, the baby came out and killed everybody, and then and then escaped because the baby is gone. 

Todd:  It’s And 

Craig:  they talk about how, like, there’s a broken skylight, and it escaped through the skylight. Like, okay. Yeah. 

Todd:  It’s a pretty quick conclusion to jump Todd, and their only I think their only explanation is, well, the hole in the skylight was too small for a man to get in. So at first there’s like a quick, like, question as to if somebody broke in and stole the baby, and Frank at first is angry at the hospital. He’s like they took you you took we trusted you. We keep saying I trusted you and and you guys took my baby. But then like the very next scene suddenly they’re they’re asking him like, she didn’t have any exposure to radioactivity, did she? And Frank is discussing with the doctor about how well naturally it’s it’s an animal, it’s not my son, and we need to kill it. So there’s this complete 180 where he completely disavows his son. And it seems like the reason for doing this initially is that he’s concerned about their own reputation. You know? It’s kind of a a self preservation thing.   Do whatever you can. We we definitely need to kill it. And he’s basically giving the police carte blanche to do what they need to do. Right then 

Clip:  there. 

Todd:  And as he’s driving home from the hospital, he hears, immediately, there’s a radio, news broadcast about this. And he says, damn, they even named us on the radio. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. They give, like on the radio, it, like, gives the exact full details of everything it happens. And they and they name like, they give their names and stuff. Like, that is so ridiculous. And it doesn’t just happen once. It happens again later. Oh, yeah. Like, the full the full details of exactly what’s going on in the broadcast right away. 

Todd:  Practically tells their home address. I mean, it’s 

Craig:  just crazy. And what I what I was trying to get at before is that I I liked the representation of the parents. Not because necessarily I thought that it was honest, but just because I thought that it was an interesting dichotomy. And they make a big deal out of the fact that nobody saw the baby. Doctor. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Doctor. And I feel like that’s a, like, that’s kind of an important part is that nobody saw it. At some point somebody asks the mom, you must have at least got a glimpse at it. And she, she kind of was like, well, maybe I kind of got a glimpse. But it’s like a big deal that they’ve never, that they never saw it. And I think that’s important, and it’s important for the the end of the movie. But you’re right. Frank, it it right away is cooperating with the police, and the police say it’s an animal.   And, when we find it, we’re gonna have to destroy it like an animal, and and Frank is okay with that. But Leonor, from the very beginning and and I could only imagine that this okay. I I hope that no crazy demon killer babies are going to be born. But even if that were the case, even if that happened, the mother, you know, she she says something like and and it’s almost a throwaway. Like, I don’t even feel like the camera is on her when she’s saying this. I feel like it’s on Frank, but she says he was probably just afraid that they were gonna hurt him. He’s not ugly. And and that would be the response that you would expect from a mother, you know, regardless of how monstrous this baby might have been.   You know, I would imagine that a mother would feel some sort of connection, some sort of empathy and want to help, and I appreciated Todd. And you see it in the performance. And as the movie goes on, there were points in the movie when I was taking my notes and I you could see it in the actor’s face. It was like Frank is losing it. Like the what it what is what is going on, you know, all of this that’s going on is literally driving these people mad. And and it would. Closer towards the end of the movie, I said the same thing about the the mom. Leonor is losing it.   Like, they just can’t handle these circumstances. And I didn’t recognize many of the actors or actresses, from this movie but, Leonor was played by a woman named Sharon Farrell. And when I looked her up, I noticed that she was in Knight of the Comet, which have we done that movie? Did we talk about the movie? I don’t know. Oh, What’s a good one? I remembered her specifically. She was Cindy Mancini’s mom from Can’t Buy Me Love, which was a huge movie, in my childhood. And in that movie, she’s very beautiful and very I don’t want to say ditzy, she’s actually a nice character in that movie, but in this movie, she comes across as very real. You know, she’s got this very real mom, 70s, like, perm. She’s not strikingly beautiful.   She comes across, you know, as as a regular lady, and I appreciate that. In movies like Rosemary’s Baby where you’ve got Mia Farrow and and she’s so pixie like and and and beautiful, She does a great job in that movie and I love that movie Todd, but I liked in this movie that these people felt like real people, you know, like these would be your neighbors. And to see how the events of the movie affect them psychologically, I think that that was probably my favorite part of the movie Todd see how this affected them as individuals. Frank goes home, which again in today’s society, I wouldn’t expect that. You know, you would kind of expect the husband to stay with the wife through these, this traumatic experience. But no, he, you know, he goes home and he goes to work the next day, you know, he he leaves her there and eventually she comes home, and whatever. The evil baby kind of goes on a rampage, I guess, not really. I mean, we we see these, point of view shots, from the baby.   That’s the other thing Todd. We never really see it. I mean, we get some very quick glimpses of it in really dark circumstances, but we never get to see it really full on ever really. Close there towards the end we see more of it. It wasn’t that, it wasn’t seeing the baby going around and killing people, that wasn’t the part that was the most interesting to me. The part that was most interesting to me was how it affected the parents and how they dealt with it. And I I I don’t know. I just thought that was it maybe maybe an hour and a half was was too long to explore that, but I I thought it was really interesting.   And I thought that both actors, John p Ryan who played Frank and and the lady who played Leonore, I thought they they did a really good job with that. 

Todd:  I I agree with you a 100%. And it plays out in such a believable way, and it almost has to be a little slow in order to give you that that sense. Because if something like this were to happen, I I don’t know, it kinda reminded me a little bit of The Happening, you know, which I think is a kinda misunderstood movie as well. But that’s really a movie about people who are so dumbstruck by crazy things happening around them that they just literally are wandering around. They really don’t know what to do. And Yeah. This that seems pretty believable. You know, nobody’s gonna you’re not gonna band together and have this amazing plan.   Unfortunately, life is not really like a Hollywood movie. Life is pretty much like, I guess we go home now. And we wait to see what the police find. And and that’s how that’s how it happens. You know, they go home and he goes to work and his boss has this this discussion with him where he’s kind of like suggesting that he take some time off. But and you know, I mean, you can see in his face and in the boss’s face that he’s basically telling me he’s gotta let him go because the controversy around this is too great for a PR man to hold his job. 

Craig:  He’s not coming back. Yep. 

Todd:  And you just he’s just kinda dejected from that. And it’s funny, it’s not like he comes home and he sputters and and whatever. It’s like, alright. I guess I just lost my job, but let’s see how the wife is doing. I mean, he’s they keep Chris at the neighbor’s house because they really don’t know what to do with him. So he you know, it’s just like they’re they’re flying around, you know, waiting for that landing. Yeah. They’re just treading water.   And in the meantime, you see the kid kind of going around and killing some people. He kills a woman. He kills a guy in a milk truck, which is kind of a neat deal. And again, this is done in a way that, it’s not very gory. Most all the murders pretty much happen off screen because they don’t wanna shoot the kid. But it’s clever. I mean, it was neat. There’s all the spilled milk out the back, and I was like, wait for it. 

Craig:  Yep. Yep. Yeah. Red red blood with the spilled 

Todd:  milk. There we go. Yeah. But in the meantime, like you said, the father is all he knows to do is kind of disown himself from this kid. He’s talking himself into, the fact that, you know, we have no responsibility for this child. He’s not my child. And so researchers come and visit him in his house. 

Clip:  You wanna experiment on it, is that you? 

Craig:  As a 

Clip:  matter of fact, my department has already cautioned the police about excessive violence. If it could be dispatched with a bullet, or better still, some kind of a gas. Undoubtedly, it is very small, and any kind of bodily harm, especially from gunshots or explosives.   In other words, you want me, to sign away the body. Is that it?   Well, it’s your right. After all, you are the child’s father.   It’s not my child. 

Todd:  In the meantime, mom kind of comes down the stairs and overhears a little bit of this, but doesn’t quite know what’s going on. Kinda goes back upstairs, and dad says some really interesting stuff about Frankenstein. 

Clip:  When I was a kid, I always thought the monster was Frankenstein. You know, Karloff walking around in these big shoes, grunting? I thought he was Frankenstein. When I went to high school and I read the book, and I realized that Frankenstein was the doctor who created him. Somehow the identities get all mixed up, don’t they? 

Todd:  Even though he’s so steadfastly disowning the kid, there are some seeds that are being planted here where there’s a part of him that’s starting to actually feel some responsibility, and and that’s an internal struggle that he’s having. And it’s not overstated. It’s very much understated throughout the movie and I like that aspect. I think it’s what we’re talking about when we say that it’s very real. Now, you have to have a lot of patience for this because it does play out in real time. And honestly, real time is not necessarily good drama. I think it could be argued that maybe the movie is just a little long. But in the same sense, you know, we’re giving it some praise for being realistic.   So I don’t know. I’m a little conflicted as to whether or not it’s a good movie because of it. 

Craig:  Well, yeah. I I mean that’s Craig really kind of comes across as an unlikable character because of what you just said. I mean, from the very beginning, I mean, even when they’re in the hospital and the police are calling the baby an animal and he says, Well, it’s not an animal, it’s a human being, and that’s what scares you. And the doctor, the police officer, whoever it is says, Well, it kills like an animal, and therefore we’re going to have to put it down like an animal. And he says, Oh, I totally understand that. Do whatever you have to do. You know, I don’t know if it’s realistic or not, but I feel like I can understand the character motivation. You know, like he does and he keeps saying it, It’s not mine.   It’s not my flesh and blood. And you’re right. I think it’s that he just doesn’t want to accept any responsibility for this thing that everybody finds so detestable, himself included. He doesn’t want to accept any responsibility for it. Whereas, you can tell, even though it’s not overt, even though the filmmakers don’t focus on it really, you can tell that the mother feels differently. 

Clip:  Mhmm. That, 

Craig:  you know, regardless of what this child may be, it is mine. You know? Doctor. Yeah. Doctor. It is my child and I have feelings for it and I want to try to understand and I want to try to help. And, and I like that both of them kind of start to become unhinged even though they’re kind of on opposite ends of the spectrum, and you see that tension between them too. Yeah. And I like that.   That’s that’s why I appreciated the ending of the movie, which we’ll get to here in a second. But that’s why I appreciated it it so much is because, it kind of, you know, as as adamant as he has been, the dad, and as as cooperative as as he has been, and I I don’t know that I necessarily found that particularly believable. The police, the doctors, the researchers, the university, the medical researchers, everybody, their primary objective is kill it. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Kill it, kill it, kill it. And then we’ll take care of it. I would have expected that there would have been somebody from the scientific community or something that would have thought, If we can take this thing alive, we should take it alive. But no, everybody is like, we gotta kill it, kill it, kill it. 

Todd:  Well, and they’re really pushing it, but there is a a bit of an explanation for that. In that there’s a scene, that’s pretty quick, but it’s when the, representative from the drug company flies in. It sounded like they make birth control pills. And again, this so dates the movie because this all would have been very timely. You know, matters of abortion, matters of pollution, and of course birth control pills, just a decade before this I think were even coming on the market and they were controversial. And this guy is very concerned, about the image. He just can foresee that it’s possible that they will find out that the reason that the baby was mutated or whatever is because she had been on birth control and that their pills were responsible. And he doesn’t want that to happen, so he says to one of the investigators. 

Clip:  But if there was nothing left of it, you know, we would be most grateful to you. Oh, you have, had a very successful career until this freak incident.   At the you know,   it could work out for the best. We have an opening on the board of our research and development department. We wouldn’t want people to lose faith in this, would we? 

Todd:  I mean, it’s not the reason why everybody’s pushing for it, but at least there’s kind of a reason why that guy might have pushing for it more than the others. 

Craig:  Well, and I think that the movie was trying to do that. I think that it was trying to address some timely issues. And and I feel like it maybe fell a little bit flat in that area, because it it just it just kind of felt like they were trying to insert them and and it felt like that. It felt like these things were just inserted. Like that that scene that you just mentioned, it seemed to come out of nowhere. I didn’t even know who those people were really that were talking. I mean, it was like this medical representative or something. And I get what they were going for, exactly what you said, you know, these new birth control pills, controversial, nobody really knew what the long term effects were gonna be, etcetera.   There were other things, when Frank was talking to the other dads in the waiting room, one of them was talking about how he was a exterminator. And they had come up with these chemicals that, were supposed to eliminate roaches, but really all it did was eliminate the roaches that we had, but it it it led to, 

Clip:  a 

Craig:  new, larger, more aggressive form of roaches. And so I think they were trying to say, Here’s all these things that are going on in our world that could potentially lead to this. It could be any number of things. You know, I don’t know. I would imagine that Frank would have been probably around the age that maybe, he could have served in the military, so it could have been a children of thalidomide kind of thing. Like, you know, there’s all kinds of there’s there’s all these possible explanations that they I I feel like they’re trying to say any one of these things could have led to this. It doesn’t really matter which one it was, but if this was the outcome, then how would people deal with it? If this movie were to be remade again, Because I don’t think that they addressed I don’t think they addressed any of those things, at least as far as I remember in the remake. That could be something that could be even more fleshed out as a plot element.   But then again, to be fair, you know, kind of leaving it a mystery and not pinning it down to something I think is effective too because what does it really matter? I mean, and and I didn’t know, you know, I couldn’t tell if this how serious this this movie was trying to be because really this could be a metaphor for any number of things. And at one point, you know, when the boss calls Frank in, he says, you know, these things happen. 

Clip:  You know O’Connor’s down in accounting. He’s got a retarded kid, insists on keeping him in the house too. Well, nobody thinks a thing of that. Nobody blames him. Doctor. 

Craig: 

Jack Wolfson: Hopefully, people wouldn’t say that Todd, but it’s just one of those things that if you have a child that is different for whatever reason and and there’s a stigma around that difference, how do you deal with that? I I can only imagine that it’s a challenge, for parents. And, obviously most things wouldn’t be this intense. But, I I do think that it’s a real issue that people have to deal with, you know, when when unexpected things happen. You know, whether that be, your child is born with some sort of physical or or developmental disability or or even, you know, if you have a kid and the kid is quote unquote normal and then grows up and turns out to be a monster. You know, like, it would be hard. I can only imagine as a parent to take responsibility for that. I can see how somebody like Frank would just wanna disavow it and say, This isn’t my fault. You know, I didn’t do this. 

Craig:  You can’t pin this on me. And I thought that that was an interesting, dynamic, in the movie. Of course it’s exaggerated, but you know, metaphors are exaggerated. So I I thought that was interesting. I don’t know that they were necessarily going for that or if they were, I don’t know that they were necessarily successful, you know, in this type of B movie. But I could see how it could bring up real life questions. And and I did appreciate that. 

Todd:  I I did Todd. You know, I think that you bring up a really interesting point here, and that it can be really read 2 ways for the the film, and it’s hard to know what was intended. But I think this is definitely a movie that you can either see as a Todd, kind of sensational B type movie that just goes on a little too long. Because it has that feel to it with the score and with the absurdness of it all and like you said, some of the character decisions don’t make a lot of sense the people it’s kind of a black and white where these guys wanna kill it and and, you know, the parents are, you know, and they’re pushing the parents to kill it. There’s a big chase scene kind of at the end, it goes on a while. There are all these POV shots of the of the of the baby and it, you know, kills a bunch of people as it goes on. But then if you want to read this deeper, there is a lot of depth that can be read into it, in everything that we’ve talked about. And these lines that seemingly throw our throw away.   It may be just a skilled writer who’s intentionally inserting those things in to kind of bring you, whether you know it or not, to the point where we were by the end of the movie. I think all those little things kind of have an effect on you. And if that’s the case, and that wasn’t an accident, it’s really good writing. Things come home for them quite literally because, the baby makes it to the son’s school, and Frank and so, you know, Frank goes with the police, to the school, because there’s been a break in there, and it kills somebody there. But Frank even mentions, he’s like, my you know, this my son goes to school here. And, the cops, like, are does that bother you? And he’s like, well, yeah. It kinda bothered me. Because what we’re getting an idea of is maybe this baby is actually smart. 

Clip:  You know? 

Todd:  Maybe this baby knows. And so he goes home that night and we get a very long, drawn out sequence where he goes to the fridge and a whole bunch of the milk’s been dropped. So he goes and he asks his wife, like, is Chris home? He doesn’t ask her directly, hey, did you drink a bunch of milk? 

Craig:  Right. Which wouldn’t 

Todd:  have been a smart thing to do, but, hey, you know, has has Chris been home? She’s, like, doesn’t really give him a clear answer. So he goes upstairs, and he sees that Chris’s room has been trashed. He says, Chris, are you hiding? And then he goes downstairs and asks her, you know, I told you not to lie to me. And again, she’s really not giving a straight answer. This is the point where she’s clearly coming unhinged. And then you’re starting to wonder, wait a minute. Does she know the baby’s in the house and she’s purposely trying to protect it? It turned you know, he called the neighbor, and they were like, yeah. Chris has been here the whole time.   So then he starts prowling around, but at the same time, Chris immediately breaks out and starts to run home. So, you know, they’re trying to make this convergence, which which in a modern movie would have been a probably pretty intense, pretty fast moving type sequence. But in this film, it’s it’s rather slow and plodding, and it’s like, come on, Frank. Flip on some lights. Stop prowling around the house. Get your wife. If you’re worried about, about something beating in there, call the cops or get out of there. You know? Right.   Somehow the kid goes in man, the the baby ends up in the basement. It’s kind of a magic baby in a way. First, it’s in the Todd’ room, then it’s in the living room, and it sneaks right up on them, but they’re right there, kind of like, you know, we talked about the poppets last week, like, oh, please. Somebody’s gonna see this baby running around if we correlate the POV shots with, you know, what’s happening about seconds later. But anyway, yeah, he’s in the basement. The kid somehow was up in the basement. Chris, and I’m not quite sure how he didn’t just walk in the front door. 

Craig:  Right. Why he did it? It doesn’t really make any sense why he didn’t just come in the front door. I I I don’t know if he’s just sneaking in or whatever, but, yeah, he comes through the basement. And and what has happened is that Leonor does know, that the baby’s there, and and she is coming unhinged. And she even says to Frank, as as Frank kind of realizes, you know, he sees he goes up and looks in the the son’s room and it’s all kinda messed up. And so he comes down and and he sees Lenore coming out of the basement and she closes the door like she’s hiding something and he says, what are you hiding down there? And she says, you know. And we see that Chris has snuck into the house through the basement. And this was kind of an interesting part too because the the baby is down there.   And again, we really haven’t seen much of it. But Chris immediately, like, bonds with it and says something like, it’s okay. Don’t be scared. I’ll take care of you. But at the same time, Charlie, the neighbor, bursts in through the outside door. The dad comes in through the the door that’s connected to the inside of the house, and the baby attacks Charlie. And and what we’re led to believe, I think, throughout the whole course of the movie and what they I think they try to really nail home, at the end is that the baby attacks out of fear. It’s not just inherently malicious.   It’s afraid and it’s scared and that’s why it attacks. And it attacks Charlie and the dad shoots it. Frank shoots it. He shoots at it several times, but he says, I’m almost positive I hit it. And as it turns out, he did. 

Todd:  Before we go on to this last bit, I just have to mention that there’s a point in this movie that that where the film really started to bother me. And that was that moment in the basement. And it’s something that Leonor, says to Frank. Aft it’s just before Frank shoots him. She’s pleading with him not to to do anything. 

Clip:  Frank, Frank, he could’ve killed you if you were upstairs sleeping. He could’ve killed you. You know why he didn’t 

Todd:  That line just, like, suddenly really got 

Craig:  to me. 

Todd:  And I and I and I just my wife is in the room. I just turned her and I said, oh my gosh. This is really this is really sad. And, Yeah. And and I don’t know if it’s just because, like, suddenly I kinda hit home because I’m a new I’m a new father, and I just immediately placed myself in that position. But it’s like, yeah. Everything you said, the the it’s clear at that moment because of the the this baby will attack anything that it comes close 

Craig:  to. Right. 

Todd:  But it doesn’t attack the kid, it doesn’t attack the mom, and it doesn’t attack the dad. And so you can see that it’s it’s hoping to be for dad to swoop down and 

Craig:  Todd pick 

Todd:  him up in his arms. You know? Right. And then dad shoots it. Yep. I was like, oh my gosh. It just really bothered me. It bothered me a lot. Yeah.   And I didn’t expect that. 

Craig:  It it it’s almost small. I know. It was unexpected, and I kinda felt the same way. And I felt the same way moving forward, as well. And and I I did think of you. So so he he shoots it, but it’s not dead. But because it has been injured, then it’s bleeding, so they can track it. And they track it to the sewers, and and they figure out, oh, that’s how it’s been able to get all around town without people knowing or or seeing it.   And there’s this whole big chase where Frank wants to go with them. And one of the police guys says to him, You feel like you have to be the one that does it, don’t you? And he says, Yes, I’m gonna do it. And he and the cop is like, did you see it? And he said, no, it was too dark. I couldn’t really get a glimpse, but I know that when I see it, I’ll be able to do it. And then there’s this whole chase, through the sewers where like the cops are driving their cars through the sewers and stuff. It’s all, you know, super intense. And they give Frank this big rifle. Everybody’s searching around.   Frank somehow ends up on his own, and he’s searching around, and he is the one that finds the baby. And then, like, I I said way earlier, you know, I thought this movie was kind of plotting. I I didn’t know that I was all that much into it. And then there was this scene and it just kind of floored me. And it really kind of broke my heart, like, almost to the part, to the point where I wanted to cry a little bit. Because, Frank finds the baby and he shines his flashlight on the baby and the baby is just huddled in a corner, injured and scared and crying like a baby. And that finally gets to him. He says, I know it hurts, but everything is gonna be alright.   I was scared like you are. And and as he’s saying this, he starts to cry and like, I didn’t like this guy. You know, I was really mad at this guy throughout the whole course of the movie. And then at this point, I started thinking, Todd, maybe I judged him too harshly. You know, maybe he this was a really, really terrible, terrible situation for him to find himself in and he didn’t know how to react and his reactions were, you know, it was just this kind of natural reaction, this kind of natural disgust, this kind of push it away. This isn’t me. This isn’t mine. I don’t wanna be connected to it.   I don’t wanna be responsible for it. And then when he finally sees the baby for the first time, he feels that connection and and he wants to protect, the baby and that’s what he does. You know, he picks it up and wraps it up in his his jacket and tries to run away, and protect it from the police. And I was surprised how moved I was, by that moment and how in that moment I kinda felt like that character came to a realization, like, what have I done? And and it was it it it I was surprised by how sad it made me. Yeah. 

Todd:  I was too. And I was crying actually at that point. I really was. I couldn’t believe that the movie got to that point. And, and, you know, you can see it coming. I knew this was gonna happen. I I I really did. I really felt like there was gonna be a moment because it’s very cinematic.   And also because it’s it’s, you know, it’s kind of Frankenstein. Well, except Frank, you know, by that point at the end of the of the book, Frankenstein really wants to kill a monster. 

Craig:  But, but 

Todd:  but, you know, I expected there to be this moment in the movie. I did not expect it to to bother me as much as it did. And I think that scene, it just lingers so long on dad, and then the acting, I think, is fantastic. And it’s not afraid Bless that record’s heart. He was not afraid to take his time with this scene and let it linger. And then the actors’ tears came, and they came up at the right moments, and it’s just a really skillfully simple, simple, but skillfully done scene. Yeah. And I was into it the whole time.   They had me hook a line and sinker. And you just like you, I I had a whole new appreciation for everything that came before it, I think. Because you’re right. You kinda hate this guy, and and it’s amazing that the turnaround that you get at this point. But but if you look back, it was signaled. I mean, you can you can look back and see points at which oh, yeah. You can see the the inner turmoil that he was feeling that led up to it. So it made perfect sense.   It did come out of left of left field. 

Craig:  Yeah. And I and I think that that is gosh. I’m gonna go ahead and get all deep here, but I, I, I think that that is something that probably a lot of people have experienced with, either their children or their parents, where there’s just something that that keeps you separated. You know? There there there’s something that causes this distance between parents and children sometimes, whatever it may be. Whether it may be just, you know, a kid didn’t turn out the way that their parents had hoped. Like, you know, the kid didn’t want to carry on dad’s business or whatever, or or any number of things. But then I think that there are times in life where then there’s just this realization, Todd doesn’t matter. It’s my kid, and I love my kid no matter what.   And no matter what it is that I have a problem with, when it comes right down to it, it’s my kid and I love my kid and I want to protect my kid. And and I I I maybe that’s why it resonates not only with you as a new dad or or or me for whatever reason, but, I think that we can all under we can all appreciate that and and it it’s strange to find a moving moment like that, in a stupid b movie a stupid b movie about a killer baby. And I’m sitting here almost getting choked up about it now, and that’s so dumb. But but, you know, I I think that it is something we can all relate to. And when, you know, when he sees the baby, it is monstrous. You know, like, it’s got, like, these big talon claws, and it’s got, like, these fangs. But at the same time, it’s small and vulnerable, and you can tell that it’s scared. And it’s it’s it it is sad, you know? I can under I I understand why you cried.   I’m surprised I didn’t. I running away from the police and and they’re, you know, in hot pursuit. And he eventually gets out of the sewers, but the cops are just there waiting for him and Leonor is there and upset and and, you know, all these police have their guns trained on him and they’re saying drop it, drop it. And he’s saying, no, it it’s injured. It it it can’t hurt anybody. He says, lock it up, study it, just don’t kill it. And the cops are all standing around there. And I’m not sure, I feel like I was supposed to remember who this character was, but I didn’t.   There’s one character who’s, like, in a suit, and he’s he’s just going, kill it, kill it, kill it, kill it now. Like, he doesn’t they don’t even care that, you know, if they have to shoot Frank in the process, they will. And this one guy is chanting basically, kill it, kill it. And so Frank takes the baby and throws it on that guy who is saying, kill it. Kill it. Kill it. And the cops shoot, the baby and that guy, and they’re both dead. I that was 

Todd:  a little unrealistic that that bit. And I’m sure the cops are on the fire on people, you know, even if there’s, but yeah. I I kinda roll my eyes at that part. But 

Craig:  Well, you’re right. And, I mean, at this point, it’s like we’ve gotta you you knew I couldn’t imagine that they were just gonna take the baby away. It feels very much like a tragedy. Doctor. Yeah. Doctor. The whole thing feels like a tragedy. And so I knew that it had to end tragically, and I knew that the baby was gonna die.   And and that’s what happens. And then Frank and Lenore, are reunited. You know, she’s kinda standing right outside of a cop car. You know, just such subtle things that I’m surprised to find in this type of movie. You know, Frank kind of walks up to her and they don’t say anything, but you can just see in her face that while she’s devastated, she’s resigned to how this has turned out. Like, it’s over. You know, like, she’s devastated, but it’s over. And and they just get in the back seats together and they’re just sitting there quietly.   And the cop in the front seat who’s, I don’t know, the commander or something, he gets a call on his private line, and, he takes the call and he’s like, uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And then he hangs up, and then he just says, Another one’s been born in Seattle. And then they drive away and that’s it and that’s the end. And I kinda saw that coming Todd. You know? Like, that this that this wasn’t gonna be an isolated thing. And maybe I saw it coming because I read the descriptions of the of the sequels.   And I guess I guess in the second sequel, it’s kind of about how this has become an epidemic. Like, these babies are being born all over the place and how they deal with that. And the 3rd sequel is called Island of the Alive, and I guess they they round up all these babies and, like, they put them on this deserted island and, like, these human rights activists, like, band together to go rescue them or something. 

Todd:  Oh, well, you start with a goofy premise. 

Craig:  It’s it’s weird. You know? Like you said earlier, like, it seems like a made for TV movie. I don’t know if things changed at some point in the seventies, but, like, the credits come up and all we we get the cast and then the production company, and then that’s it. There’s, like, 15 seconds of of credits. So it did kind of feel like a TV movie, in that regard. But, as much as I was looking at my watch and maybe kind of checking in on Facebook every once in a while while I was watching the movie, the end really left me kind of troubled. Like, I finished it. My partner doesn’t watch these movies with me because he is not interested at all.   But, so so I was watching it in the living room, and I I walked back into the bedroom where he was watching TV, and I was like, that was a pretty stupid movie, but, like, now I’m really sad. So so, you know, I don’t know. It’s it’s difficult for me to evaluate because on the whole, I would say, I don’t know. It was alright. It was kind of a typical B movie, but there was something about the ending that really kind of gut punched me. And I guess you gotta give credit for that. I mean, it affected me more than a lot of movies that I see. 

Todd:  No. Same here, man. And I thought maybe it was just because, you know, I’ve got a kid who who woke up crying for something, you know, just minutes after the movie. And 

Craig:  I I 

Todd:  I think it’s Bob, and I looked at him with a whole new light. I was like, wow. You’re I’m glad you turned out the way you did. 

Craig:  I actually 

Todd:  said that to him. So that’s funny. But, you know, we do I know, and it’s funny 

Craig:  to talk about some of these 

Todd:  other things because that is something that kinda goes through your your head, as a parent. Even, you know, stuff I thought about even before I was a parent. But, you know, you always imagine that your kid’s gonna be great. But, you know, what what it must be like to have a child who ends up in jail because they killed somebody or completely wrecked their life somehow. It doesn’t have to be that they’re a monster, you know. They’re just things just go wrong. Yeah. They’re people and people are people.   Everybody’s got a mother, you know. So Right. Right. Yeah. It it it does it does cause some pause, as dumb as as it seems that you would be, that a movie like this would affect you in that way and cause you to ask those questions. Hey. It just it really did. I was I was just as shocked as you.   Alright. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. You can find us on iTunes, Stitcher, and Google Play. You can also find us on Facebook where we have a page. Let us know what you thought there, like us, tell us what you think of this movie, and of course, recommend any other film that you like us to do. 

Craig:  Until next time, 

Todd:  I’m Todd And I’m Craig. With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Simone joins us yet again for a tribute to Mother’s Day, only a week late. This slow burn creep-fest really got under our skin and we enjoyed discussing its many nuances.

Episode 81, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: I’m Craig.

Todd: And today with us, one of our favorite special guests. Say hi to the people, Simone. 

Simone:  Hey, guys. Good to be back. 

Todd:  We’re really happy to have Symone back with us today. Actually, she suggested this week’s film in honor of mother’s day, which by the time you hear this will have already happened. But, Simone, what movie did you choose? 

Simone:  I chose the 2016 film, The Eyes Of My Mother. And this was a movie that I had, heard had come out in the states, but of course, living abroad, I wasn’t able to see it in the theater. And I picked it up in one of our favorite little knockoff DVD stores over here, and gave it a shot. And man, oh, man, was this this is a very drastic change from the last time I was on this show talking about the fly. 

Todd:  That’s right. No Jeff Goldblum in this one for 1. Unfortunately, no. Not really many men in this one not not many characters really, actually. 

Simone:  Yeah. A small cast. 

Todd:  Yeah. Craig, I knew nothing about this movie. Did had you heard of this film before? 

Craig:  I don’t think so. I don’t think I had heard anything about it, and I just watched it. I didn’t look anything up. I didn’t know anything about it. So I didn’t know if this was a new movie, an old movie. I had no idea. And so when it started and I could tell that based on the cinematography and whatnot that it was a Todd, film, I was a little bit surprised. And I would say that that’s a good way of of describing my feelings about the movie overall.   A little bit surprised. It’s an interesting film. 

Todd:  It really is. Interesting is a good way of putting it.   Yeah. I’m glad you picked it, Simone, because we try to do all kinds of different, you know, types of movies.   Mhmm.   And I was surprised because, it was all in black and white, first of all. I I thought when it started out in black and white, for sure, we were seeing a flash back, and then pretty soon it would change. You know? But this is a pretty interesting choice nowadays for a 2016 horror film to go black and white. It it kinda shows the director is going for, like, art house. Mhmm. You know? 

Simone:  A film noir kind of thing, if you will. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s not, you know, a lot of the horror movies now that are coming out, it seems to be, you know, we’ve talked about this before, like a genre that’s kind of revived in popularity again.   Mhmm.   But there’s so many of them getting churned out that they’re just all so commercial. You imagine that a person really wouldn’t be putting out a black and white horror film unless they really interested in more than just, like, making money.   You know what I 

Simone:  mean? And this is unconventional in the way that other horror movies of this day and age are going and that it’s not a remake, I believe. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. It’s kind 

Simone:  of an original idea. And the black and white really works because, Craig, you had mentioned it’s modern, but when we were watching it, like, I couldn’t decide what modern era. Like, people didn’t have cell phones. The the trucks and the cars looked maybe a little old. So we were guessing maybe, like, eighties, early nineties. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Simone:  But then because of the, like, remote location of where the set takes place in this kind of small town, that also could help with, you know, a town that’s maybe a little, bit behind in the times. Yeah. But I think black and white really works with this film because in in a lot of the scary movies, especially the remakes that we see, it relies so much on, like, blood and gore and everything’s, like, doused in the color red. But this movie was very effective and very creepy, and we know that there’s blood. We we see it happening, but I guess encased in black and white, it’s just something old timey and off. It’s very haunting. 

Todd:  It mutes the the gore and the blood quite a bit, doesn’t it? Yeah. I mean, there’s a point in this movie where there’s a big puddle of blood on the floor, and you’re not even sure if it’s blood or water. Right? So, yeah, it definitely adds a different feel. 

Craig:  And I’m glad I’m glad that you brought that up because, it it I don’t know if it’s the black and white. I’m sure that the black and white contributes to it, but it it feels almost like a period piece. Like, it it feels like you’re watching something that takes place in the past, and yet you see all these modern things. And that was one of the and in a way, it almost feels very dreamlike because throughout this whole thing I was wondering how is this happening? I mean the whole movie centers around the premise that our main character, Franchesca, is, very isolated. It feels like a period piece and yet I kept thinking throughout, why is she so isolated? How is she so isolated? Like, this is obviously taking place in modern time. You know, they drive around in cars. We’ve we only one time really get away enough from the one central farm setting to see more of civilization. But when we do see that, you know, it’s a a contemporary bar that they go to and and whatnot.   But the the whole time, this girl, it centers around the fact that she’s so alone and that that kind of maybe contributes or causes her madness. But the whole time I was thinking, doesn’t she have to pay her electric bill? Like, I mean, like, how can she be so isolated? Like, she’s got electricity, she’s got a car, like cars have to run on gasoline. Like, she has to interact with the world in some way, but we never ever see that. And so to me it felt very surreal, You know? It it it felt like a surrealist, piece to me. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s so funny you mentioned that, Craig, because I have a big Todd note here. And Simone, you’re proof. Right? You see that?   Who’s paying 

Craig:  the electric bill? Yes. 

Todd:  Who is paying her electric bill is exactly what I wrote down. 

Simone:  I thought that maybe because they’re on this kind of isolated farmhouse that perhaps it was one of those electricity that, Yeah. Or solar panels, except this might have been a little too 

Todd:  soon for solar panels. Maybe not solar panels, but, yeah, 

Simone:  some something where they have to, like, go on a bicycle and, like, Craig out there. 

Todd:  They take us through a lot of her chores, but they really neglected the part where she generates her own electricity. 

Simone:  And how she learned how to drive and all of that stuff. It’s okay. 

Todd:  Yeah. You’re right. At at times, it also felt a little bit like, what was that? The village, m night,   Jamal. Yeah.   There was a point where I almost expected some little twist in there kind of in that vein, you know, that faded away pretty quickly. But yeah, it does have that quiet, deliberate feel. I would say, I mean, this is kind of an art house movie, really. It’s it’s not gonna be a movie for everybody. It’s gonna be a movie for people who are gonna be willing to sit down and digest it slowly. Right? 

Craig:  Yeah. And and it did it reminded me of a lot of other movies. I definitely thought of The Village because of of the isolation and it also, reminded me of I don’t know. It’s it’s a movie, Todd, that I’ve suggested either to your face or online. The Woman. I don’t even remember who did that movie, but it calls calls back, not calls back necessarily, but it reminds me of lots of other movies. But at the same time, it’s also very unique, and I appreciate that. That’s another thing, as I was watching it, I was like, Did Simone trick us? This doesn’t seem like a horror movie.   At least for the for the first 20, 30 minutes, that’s what I was thinking about. Especially in the first half hour, it really reminded me, like, of a Flannery O’Connor story or something, like, kind of southern gothic kind of stuff. With a little bit 

Todd:  of Catholic imagery Todd, you know? 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. So I don’t know. While it’s reminiscent of of lots of other things, or while it calls to mind lots of other things, it really is original and unique, and I I appreciate that. So thanks, Symone. 

Simone:  You’re welcome. 

Craig:  It’s it’s it’s rare that I have not heard even heard of of this type of movie. And so to be able to sit down and and watch it with no preconceptions, I I I enjoyed it. So I’ll be interested to see what you guys think. 

Todd:  The movie starts out with, it’s kind of a long, slow and there are a lot of these kind of shots in this movie, actually, shot from the cab of a truck. And the truck driver, it turns out, is pretty unimportant. We can’t even see him. We’re just looking out through the windshield as it comes across a pretty, pretty rural landscape. Now I will say, and I mentioned this to Simone while we were here, Craig and I are both from rural areas, and we know that when you were driving down a really long stretch of road that you you can see far off into the distance, you are not going like 30 miles an hour like this guy was doing. Right? Especially when you’re in a like a semi. But anyway, he is driving along down here and very slowly into view comes a woman in the middle of the street who it looks like she stumbles or maybe deliberately drops down kind of in front of the semi, and he stops and gets out and goes to her. And then it she he kinda bends over, looks at her, kinda walks back to his truck, and and immediately cuts away from this.   Mhmm.   So this is obviously a shot that we’re gonna be coming back to, at some point. Right. So I was always I was, you know, the whole time kind of wondering, okay. Is this the person who was in the road? Because you can never quite see   Yeah.   Who the girl is. 

Simone:  Far away. 

Todd:  So it’s a long shot. 

Craig:  Fits. Right? 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s a little bit of mystery here. But this is really setting you up pretty pretty early on for the tone of the film. It’s very quiet. It’s very slow. It’s very understated. I have to admit, like, I was waiting for that girl. Like, I thought from the distance, from the inside of this cab, we’re gonna see something really sinister happen to this guy.   Like, it was gonna jump up again. 

Craig:  I did too. I thought so. 

Todd:  Todd. And and so it did subvert my expectations a little bit and then but the whole movie plays out like this really. It it doesn’t ever really surprise you. 

Simone:  No. And that’s what I kind of like about it is that it takes a break from the traditional jump scares that we get a lot of times in in horror films. Mhmm. You know, these shots where it’s really, really quiet and then something jumps out to either scare the audience or scare the characters. And it is it is slow, but it, I think, is effective of being, like, very creepy without necessary of those jump scares. 

Todd:  Yeah. Without the yeah. That’s true. We get to a, a shot. The movie’s actually divided into 3 parts very clearly for us. 

Simone:  Chapters. 

Todd:  Chapter number 1 is mother. And, it’s this girl, young girl. Her name is Franchesca 

Simone:  Or Francesca. 

Todd:  Francisca. Right? And her mother   and I   don’t know if we ever got her mother’s name, but that was unimportant. And, she is talking with her. They’re obviously out on this kind of farm type place. Although it’s not really a farm, is it? It it must be. Oh, yeah. It’s a farm. They’ve got cattle.   Yeah.   Yeah. They’re out on a farm and she’s talking to her about some saint, and they’re picking flowers, and it seems like the mother is just completely involved in her daughter’s education, essentially, out here in the middle of nowhere. I guess she’s not going to school. 

Simone:  She must have been homeschooled. Yeah. 

Craig:  Well, and that’s part of the I think that’s part of the mystery. Portuguese. Or well, and and I don’t even know if the dad is. It’s Portuguese. Or well, and and I don’t even know if the dad is. It seems like maybe the dad is American, but the mom is the mom is Portuguese and she used to be, I guess, a surgeon in in Portugal. And she’s talking to her daughter. They they go out there.   And and you say she’s talking about some saint. I I actually thought that that scene ended up being really pivotal because she she talks about Saint Francis of Assisi, which I don’t know much about being a Catholic. I and having gone to Catholic school, I should know more. But Saint Francis of Assisi, you know, what I think about when I think about him is, like, he I think he’s the patron saint of animals. 

Todd:  Saint Francis spent many years living alone in the woods. Then one night, he saw an angel burning in the sky. And when he woke up, he had Todd better. But loneliness can do strange things to the mind. Eventually, he died of an eye condition that also would have caused psychosis. 

Craig:  It didn’t strike me as important in the moment, but that really is central to what I think the movie is about because they are so isolated. And eventually, this girl, Francisca, ends up alone on this farm. And it it it really seems like it’s the isolation that that does, drive her mad. And it may not just be the isolation, but just her lack of understanding of the real world. Because in the beginning, she’s this little girl. And like you said, her, you know, she’s talking to her mom, they’re, they’re out there feeding these cows. And then I didn’t even really understand what happened. Like, it cuts from them, like, petting and loving these cows, and then they’re in their kitchen and they have a cow head in there.   Like, were they petting the cows and then they just chopped off one of their heads? I didn’t understand what was going on. And as it turns out, it seems like the mother was really trying to impart her knowledge on her daughter. And they have this cow head and and the mom cuts out the eyes and she, like dissects the eye and and she pulls out this, what looked like a stone, like a clear stone. And, she said everything that the cow sees passes through this stone. And and that seemed like it was gonna be really important and relevant, and I expected it to come up again, but it didn’t really. I I mean, it’s it’s it’s significant that the mother was trying to impart her surgical wisdom on the daughter, but I never really understood the whole I I feel like there was supposed to be some meaning behind the eyes, especially since the title of the movie is the eyes of my mother. But, I I I never really put together what that was about. But that idea that isolation drives people crazy, while I think that that is probably true, it plays out in the movie in a way that well, I didn’t know how it was gonna play out, but it it does.   You know, eventually, you know, she she kinda ends up on her own on this farm. And and she does go crazy, but it’s it’s like insanity is subjective. Like, you know, what is what is crazy? What is insanity? You know, she’s all by herself and she’s all alone, and really all she wants, The only people she’s known are her mother and father, and she clings to their memory and and she craves companionship. And and that’s really what motivates everything that happens in the movie, and it that’s it’s subtle. You know, it’s a it’s a subtle motivation that you don’t see. It’s not like a slasher flick where there’s revenge or or some other motive behind the horrors that occur. I don’t know. This is interesting, you know.   I think that this would be interesting to analyze from a psychological perspective even though I have no knowledge in that area. 

Todd:  It’s like she craves companionship, but she doesn’t really have very good models of what that is   Mhmm.   Outside of her mother. So once she loses her mother, she’s kind of adrift and can’t find anything to replace that, I I feel. It’s very bizarre, the relationship that this family has with each other. 

Simone:  Yeah. And I think, something that I kind of noted was that it’s bizarre because once, you know, a big event in the movie happens where this man comes and visits their farm and asks to go inside. He uses the restroom, which we all know we have that feeling like, okay. This is bad. This is not good. 

Todd:  That was weird from the get go. 

Simone:  Yeah. He’s he calls himself Charlie. And he he just seems creepy. And and so he asks where’s the restroom and pulls out a gun and tells, Francisca’s mother to, you know, okay. I’m I’m trying to be polite here. Please show me where the restroom is. And it he kills her. What’s so interesting to me is how so unfazed Francisca is, and how kind of unfazed the father is.   And I think perhaps because of, Francisca’s mother’s occupation, she kind of and growing up on a farm too, has kind of become very unfazed by death, very comfortable by death. Mhmm. So we don’t see her cry. We don’t see her try and stop this man, or even she doesn’t even look scared. 

Todd:  No. She just sits down 

Simone:  and and waits at the table. And then, 

Todd:  She says I couldn’t leave her. 

Simone:  Right? Yeah. I couldn’t leave her. 

Todd:  I’m not even sure what that means in this context. You know? 

Simone:  Right. Right. So meaning, like, I can’t leave her body. She’s still in the house kind of thing. So 

Todd:  I couldn’t run and get you. Is that what she was trying to say to the dad when he comes that’s what she said to him. Maybe that’s what she was trying to say with that, but it was an odd way of phrasing it. 

Simone:  Yeah. I mean, she clearly has very poor social skills. Yeah. Having her parents only being the ones that she’s been able to talk to her whole life. So when the father does eventually come home, Charlie is in the bathroom with, the mother and and the father. At first, when I when I first watched this, I thought, okay. Maybe the dad, killed, Charlie, but he just kind of severely hurts him or knocks him out. And just very calmly to Franchesca says, like, we have to do something about him.   Like, they’re both so very casual about it. And you have to wonder, like, what is going on in this dad’s mind? Because he has to know something’s not quite right with my daughter. 

Craig:  Well, I don’t know. I mean, that’s kind that’s kinda what to me makes this a horror movie is because it’s it’s it’s just so unsettling because you don’t know what’s going on. Like, Charlie comes in. He and again, this he’s like a door to door salesman. I he’s got some kind of pamphlets or books, in his hands. And there is specifically a Flannery O’Connor story with a door to door bible salesman. So that’s kinda why I made that reference. But, it it’s it’s bizarre because you know I mean, you can tell right from the beginning that there’s something off about Charlie.   He’s just weird. Who whoever the actor was that played that played it very well because, he he’s just unsettling in in the way that he behaves. But then he he brutally, just brutally murders the mother. Yeah. I mean, and you had mentioned before how we don’t really see a lot of this on screen. Most of it is suggested. But when the dad does finally get home, he walks well, he comes into the house and he sees Francisca sitting on the chair and she says the things that you said that she said. And then he walks towards the bedroom, or excuse me, the bathroom, and, you hear these noises like these kind of grunting noises.   And I really thought that the dad was going to walk in on his wife being raped. That’s what it sounded like to me. But, that’s that’s not what it was. When he opens the bathroom door, we just get a glimpse, just a glimpse, like a second. It it appears that Charlie is just like pulverizing this woman in the bath tub. And when I say pulverizing, I don’t just mean beating. I mean, it seems like he’s like destroying her, in the bathtub. We hear the sound of an impact, but we don’t see it.   And kind of the next thing we see is him dragging, Charlie’s body on a tarp. And I I wrote in my notes, oh, okay, so the dad killed Charlie. But it turns out that that’s not true. He just he Craig him out into the barn and tied him up. And then it’s so bizarre and that the bizariety of it, I think makes it a horror movie. Like the dad doesn’t react in the way that you would expect him to react. It’s almost just like, oh, that’s a terrible thing that happened Todd. But like, not 

Simone:  like He doesn’t call the police. He doesn’t try Exactly. Like, they yeah. He knocks him out and ties him up in the shed, but there’s no logical step taken afterwards. And, I wrote Todd, like, why keep this clearly mentally ill man locked up in your shed when you have a young daughter living with you? Like, it’s just so strange the motivations and actions that these characters take. Later on that evening, they’re both sitting on the couch. He’s smoking a cigarette, and she’s, like, kinda cuddling up next to him, and they’re watching some kinda old TV. Yeah.   Yeah. TV show. And he go and you hear, Charlie yelling from the from the shed, like, Frannie. Frannie, Frannie. And he goes, we have to take care of him. So then French, Francisca goes into the shed and takes removes his eyes and removes his vocal cords, which is what I think is why at first, I thought it was the tongue, but removes the vocal cords so that he can’t make, any noise and any sound. 

Craig:  And then she comes back in and says he won’t be making any more noise. Now this is one of the things that I liked the most about this movie was because I didn’t know what was happening. Like she goes out there, she’s this little girl and this guy is chained up in there and they have this really interesting conversation. 

Todd:  Why us?   You let me in.   You’ve done this before. Why do you do it?   It feels amazing. 

Craig:  It’s like she’s caring for him. She stitches him up, like, legitimately with, like, the tool that doctors use, so she must have gotten it from her mom’s stash or whatever. She stitches up his wounds, She pulls some glass out of his face. I I guess the dad must have bashed his face with something that had glass in it because there’s glass in his face. He says, I I I guess you’re gonna kill me. And she says, why would I kill you? You’re my only friend. And that dynamic is just so bizarre and so strange. And then she goes inside and she tells the dad he won’t be, making any more noise.   And he doesn’t, and then she continues to kinda go out and visit him. And this goes on apparently for years because we the only other thing that we see in this scene is, as or in this chapter rather, is the father and daughter dancing together in the living room, and then it’s it moves on to the next chapter, which advances us years later. The second chapter is called father, and when it advances us years later, Charlie is still tied up out there. Like, it must have been it must have been what? Like 

Todd:  Like, 10 years. 

Craig:  10 years? 

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. It’s crazy. 

Craig:  Yeah. And and that was another thing that I thought added to the surreal nature of the movie was, I didn’t understand. Symone, you said she cut out his vocal cords and she cut out his eyes. Eyes. I didn’t understand that because we didn’t see it happen on camera. So I didn’t know what was going on. I didn’t understand why. I mean, you can kind of see she puts a blindfold over his eyes, and it seems like his eyes are messed up.   So I kind of thought know, there had been that scene where they had cut out the cow’s eyes. So, I kinda figured that out, but I didn’t understand why he couldn’t talk. And it’s revealed much, much later in the film, but I didn’t pick up on it at all in this first part. And another thing that Todd me added to the surreal nature of the movie is how in the world could not only could she have kept this guy alive, but when we see him in the second chapter, the father chapter, he looks healthy. Like, he doesn’t I I would’ve expected him to look like a concentration camp victim 

Todd:  or or 

Craig:  something along those lines if he could have been alive. And now, obviously, you know, this is, I can only imagine probably independent movie where they were limited in budget and there was only so much they could do. But for me, that was very surreal that this guy had been chained out there living this miserable existence for 10 years. And he looked, except for his face, he looked virtually unchanged. I mean, he’s chained out there in underpants and white, Todd briefs, and, even like 10 years later, he’s still wearing these same briefs. And I’m like, like, I don’t know. It just, it had a very dreamlike feel to me. 

Todd:  Yeah. I actually thought it was a weakness of the film just, you know, in that it was so unbelievable as far as I was concerned. I mean, later on, she gives him this bath. This is a little bit later. She ends up giving him a bath, and you see his legs. And I said to Simone, I do not think his skin would look that nice and clean. 

Simone:  Yeah. She just, like, shave him and 

Todd:  Yeah. Right. 

Simone:  Insinuated that she probably cares for him more. But, like, when we see the barn or the shed that he’s sleeping in, he’s not on a mattress. He’s just lying on dirt or, like, a wood floor with the chains around his ankle. So you’d think there’d be sores all over his, like, open infections, open nastiness in there. So you’re right. That that is kind of a weakness. It is a little unrealistic, but, but, yeah, who knows? 

Craig:  See well and I I wouldn’t I wouldn’t identify it as a weakness, and and maybe it is. Maybe it was due to constraints, budgetary or whatever. But to me, it just kind of added to the surreal nature of the movie. It it it didn’t pull me out. It just left me intrigued. And, it made me wonder, you know, is am I supposed to be thinking about this in a realistic way? And, and having seen the whole thing, I almost feel like, no, you know, I, I I don’t miss the realism because what I feel like I’m supposed to be focusing on is the psychological nature of what’s going on with her. And to me, it just made it all the more confusing and strange, and I like that. Right.   Like I I I feel, I feel like if it had been more realistic, I don’t know if it would have I think it would have still had an impact, but I don’t know if it would have messed with my mind the way that it did. And and I actually like that. 

Todd:  Well, you’re right about the messing with the mind part because as you say, like, you think you know what’s happening, but then you realize it’s not quite that way. The same way in this chapter with the dad, Whereas the it starts out and dad’s dead. 

Simone:  Yeah. But you don’t know that right away. And that’s what I really like. It’s the whole subtleness of everything where she she wakes up. The 2 of them are sleeping in the same bed and you see this very frail Todd version man of her father. And he’s very stiff. And at first, Todd you think, okay, maybe he’s just really elderly and she has to help him, like, get up out of bed and maybe, like, walk him downstairs. But it’s not until later on that she says, why did you have to leave me? Why did you have to go? It’s clear after a while that she’s taking care of a corpse.   Yeah. She’s not taking care of of a person anymore. And and she’s she’s bathing her father. She gets into the bathtub and kinda has this really emotional moment, where she says, please don’t leave me alone. Why are you leaving me? 

Todd:  Yeah. And and and the interesting thing about this is that the dad as a corpse is really not much different than the dad   Yeah.   You know, as a as a living being because the dad just seems completely and utterly detached from reality anyway 

Simone:  Yeah. 

Todd:  And and lethargic. He just sits and watch TV. He doesn’t he says maybe 4 you know, we heard him say 4 lines.   Mhmm.   But even when she interacts with him, he’s just staring straight ahead. 

Craig:  That was another thing that I found really interesting about this movie because after the mother was killed and they, you know, they disposed of her, they buried her, in the forest near their house or whatever, I expected this to go to an incest place. You know, like, they’re they’re so they’re so isolated and they’re the only people around and now it’s just the father and the daughter. And there are even moments or there was a moment where the daughter was, laying in her bed and the dad came and sat at the foot of the bed and I was like, oh, shoot. I know where this is going. But it never really suggests that in any way and yet there’s still kind of this incestuous feel about it because they’re the only people that they interact with at all. So even though that there there’s no, concrete suggestion that the father abused her or took advantage of her, even after he dies when, you know, she’s caring for his body, you know, she, she, she takes the body to bed with her and she lays with the body and, and, like cuddles with it and stuff. In in the literal sense of the word, it’s not incestuous, but it almost feels a little bit that way anyway, even though it’s not a sexual thing. I don’t know.   Oh gosh, This is such a short movie. It’s only a 75 minute movie and I feel like there are so many things that you could talk about with it. And just that I guess, you know, I don’t understand that kind of isolation, but if there was only one person that you had and that you interacted with, I guess that it would be very intimate even if we’re not talking about on an ancestral or sexual level. That level of intimacy, you see it even more so, I would say, after he’s dead. You know, like the the fact that that she’s bathing him. You know, this that it’s something that I thought about. I’m like, even if there was nothing sexual going on, you know, she’s bathing him, he’s nude, she’s dressing him, she’s laying him in bed and and cuddling him. It was just all very bizarre and in a in a sense unsettling, but at the same time, you you feel for this character.   You feel for her, and and you under or at least I felt like I understood her loneliness and her desperation to cling to the last person that she had. And and she doesn’t only cling to him, she clings to her mother too. You know, she she continues to talk to her mother even though her mother isn’t there. In the grand scheme of things, I guess, really, it’s all very sad. 

Simone:  It is. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and then it goes to a very weird place too. Again, something else totally out of left field. She’s sitting in the car, and it looks like it’s taking her quite a bit of energy or thought. The camera pans in very slowly. And then the next shot is that point of view shot where it’s almost nighttime now, and she’s driving the car. And this was the first glimpse that we got that there was really an outside civilization and that they weren’t just totally completely out there. But also just communicated the difficulty that this woman had in choosing to leave the farm.   At first, I thought it was like she couldn’t drive, you know? I thought we were gonna get one of those deals, but she could clearly drive. And she pulls up to a bar. And the next scene is bringing a woman home. And at first, I was like, if are they friends? You know, what’s going on? And and very quickly, it turns out that she was bringing this woman home.   Mhmm.   You know, to have sex, because the woman made a comment about how I don’t know I don’t normally go home with with people. And that just, like, blew me away. Like, that her her first you don’t see this woman having any sexual feelings, first of all. And then I just wondered, like, what was it now that draws her to a woman when the only model she’s had is a is her is her mom and her dad. You know what   I mean?   Like, I mean you know? You know what I mean? 

Simone:  Or maybe that had nothing to do with it. Like, we’re kind of presuming that this is her maybe one of her first, like, social interactions with outside people. Because who knows how she’s getting, like, food, water, and and things to take care of herself and take care of the house. So you think maybe she goes into town every once in a while? 

Todd:  Yeah. And I well, to pay the electric bill, at least. But I thought, like, it I I kind of had this feeling that maybe she had something going with the guy in the bar. You know what I mean? I thought maybe there would be some of that happening. But when she brought the woman home, that that totally shot that out of the water for 

Simone:  me. Yeah. It did kind of come out of left field, but I 

Todd:  Because he is so accessible to her. 

Simone:  Yeah. 

Todd:  So why would she not do that yet go out and and instead find this girl at this bar? And then what happens later happen? 

Craig:  Right. Well, and that’s why I think that the movie is so interesting from a psychological perspective because it doesn’t seem like it’s about sexuality at all. I mean, yes, sexuality is involved. You know, she’s she’s craving this companionship and and perhaps part of what she’s craving is the physical intimacy that comes with that, but it doesn’t have anything to do with gender. You know, like, she she just she’s so starved for any kind of human companionship. Maybe she was drawn to this woman because this woman was approachable, you know That’s true. Who knows? But it it’s like it it doesn’t and the to to be fair, the woman that she brings home is young, and and seemingly, you know, kind of innocent. 

Todd:  I’m sorry. I’m asking so many questions. I ask a lot of questions when I’m nervous. Why are you nervous? I don’t do this very often. Do what? Go home with people. 

Craig:  So not that I’ve never done it before, just I’ve never done it very often. I just got the sense that she was so starved for companionship that she just clung to whatever, you know, she’s like a leech, you know, whatever she can eat easily grab onto, that’s what she gets. And this other girl is clearly trying to make connection and asking questions and stuff and she asks, you know, did you live here with your mother and father? Yes, I did. You know, what happened to them? And she says, my mother was murdered. And that disturbs the other girl, but she tries to comfort Francisca and Francisca takes the comfort, but then she says what happens, what happened to your father? And Francisca says, I killed him. And the other girl obviously reacts in a surprised and shocked way and then Francisca tries to play it off like, Oh, I’m sorry. That wasn’t funny. Like she tries to play it off like it was a joke.   But again, that was something that I didn’t even understand and I still don’t understand. Did she kill him? And if so, why? Did you guys understand that at all? 

Simone:  I think maybe she was trying to make a joke, but just she was so incredibly socially awkward that it didn’t didn’t come across. 

Todd:  Oh, so   you thought it really was a joke? It wasn’t like she’s playing it off? 

Simone:  I don’t think so because of the way that she was emotionally so attached to her father and almost going through that grieving phase in the beginning being angry, like, why are you leaving me? Please don’t leave me alone. But, again, because the movie hides so much of the actual killings, mutilations, things like that, we don’t see the eye removal surgery. We don’t see vocal cord. We don’t even see when she eventually kills this girl that she brings home. We don’t see that. 

Todd:  Right.   And it 

Simone:  goes back to that thing in the beginning where you’re talking about black and white of, like, is she cleaning up blood, or is that just water on the floor? 

Todd:  Mhmm. 

Simone:  But we kind of just put 22 together that she presumably kills this girl. So I I don’t think she killed her dad. I think she just was awkward. 

Todd:  Or she was doing it to see how the girl would react maybe. 

Simone:  To see how she would react because we see the father in the bathtub, and Todd doesn’t look like there are visible wounds. So unless she, like, suffocated him or it’s getting really deep. 

Todd:  Yeah. This honestly this was a scene that I rolled my eyes at, the whole conversation between the 2 girls. I thought it was, trying too hard. I didn’t like the writing. I thought it was very trite. I thought that their they’re I could have predicted every word that they were going to say to each other. You know, I’ve seen this in so many other movies. And the fact that the filmmaker was drawing this out so long to try to make all these words seem very significant was just super transparent to me.   I got really impatient in this scene, actually. I think it’s one of the weakest scenes in the whole movie. 

Craig:  Oh, man. I I’ve gotta just totally disagree with you on that one. I thought that this was one of the most tense I thought that this was one of the most tense scenes in the movie because I didn’t know, you know, I I mean, I guess I knew it wasn’t going to end well, but I I didn’t know what her objective was. I, you know, I didn’t know what her end game was. You know, she brought this girl home and and at at one point, she leans in and tries to this is after she’s already freaked the girl out. She leans in and kisses her, and, like, it seems like she’s looking for, you know, physical affection. Eventually, like Simone said, we don’t see her kill her, but she does. She kills her because the girl tries to leave.   And I thought that that was really effective, not only in, you know, the the scariness of, okay, she’s willing to murder people, at random. But this girl is, I thought, you know, kind of a reflection of what Francisca might have been had she been a normal person, like had she lived out there. You know, she’s kind of dewy eyed and innocent and, naive. And and when this girl tries to escape, the first thing that she tries to do is call her mom. Like, that was a she’s like, I’m just gonna call my mom and have her come pick me up. And and that, you know, resonated with me. Like, Francisca can’t call her mom. And it’s bizarre because obviously she is looking for affection and physical affection because after she kills this girl and she doesn’t get what she needs from her, she goes out to the barn and gets Charlie and brings him back into the house, and bathes him, and then presumably has sex with him.   Again, we don’t we don’t see it. All we see is she bathes him, she puts him on the bed, and then she strips naked in front of him, and she Todd approach him and then it it cuts and it cuts to the next scene. So we don’t know exactly what happened, but I presume that she had sex with him. There’s all these shots of her in her bed, and she’s always reaching out to the other side as somebody who has slept in the same bed with somebody for almost 20 years. I know that feeling, you know, you’re, you’re asleep, you’re half asleep, but you reach over and you realize that there’s either somebody there or there’s not somebody there. And if there’s not somebody there, that’s troubling. Uh-huh. And that that keeps happening to her.   Like like, she desperately just wants somebody to be there beside her, with her. And as it turns out, you know, Charlie has has tried to escape, and and she wakes up and and sees that he’s not there, feels that he’s not there, and, she goes out looking for him and eventually finds him. But, that that that whole scene with the girl, it didn’t it didn’t bother me at all. I I thought that it really illuminated her psychology, you know, that she is just so longing for companionship. It’s driven her crazy. 

Todd:  Well, I liked the idea of the scene. I just didn’t think it played out very well. That was just my feeling. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. 

Simone:  And in the beginning of the movie, when we see a young Francisca with her mom and she’s talking about the saint, she also says, I think a really important line, which is loneliness does strange things to the mind, which, I mean, obviously, we know by now that Francisca is a wackadoo. 

Todd:  And she Yep. Yep. 

Simone:  Is very lonely and is willing to, go to those extreme lengths for that companionship because she doesn’t know any other way. She doesn’t know how to connect to people. She doesn’t know Right. How to properly behave around people. And that even for someone like Charlie who has technically been her companion, we’re assuming, for 10 ish years or so, He tries to escape and even though he’s a bad guy because he’s murdered people 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Simone:  We feel bad for him. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Simone:  We’re like, go, Charlie. Go. So he’s trying to, like, struggle up that hill. 

Todd:  Unbelievably. 

Simone:  Unbelievably, you think, like, what’s left of his what what is left of his muscle tissue at that point. But he doesn’t get very far to when we see this really kind of interesting shot from out the camp, kitchen window. And we see a Francesca looking out, and she she grabs something. And we see that she’s holding a knife in her hand and goes up to Charlie and and stabs him slowly. Yeah. 

Craig:  Slowly. Yes. Slowly. Oh my gosh. I think that was my favorite scene of the movie when she’s standing at the kitchen window and she’s seeing him struggling, up this, this hill. And then the camera doesn’t move. She moves. She moves out of frame and she goes outside, and we see her approaching him.   And it’s a long shot, like, it takes her a while to get to him. And when she finally gets to him, you know, we can’t see exactly what’s going on. It’s almost like she embraces him, and they go to the ground, and then they go down, I guess, their knees or or to the ground somehow, but she’s still embracing him, like lovingly embracing him. And then she’s stabbing him. And we don’t see it because we can only see them from about the shoulders up, but we can hear it. And like you said, it’s it’s slow. 

Todd:  Yeah, thing, penetration thing. Yeah. Definitely. 

Craig:  And Yeah. It was weird. 

Todd:  The rhythm of it. 

Craig:  And and it seemed yes. And and it seemed almost loving in the way that she was doing it. And when she was finished, I mean, she stabs him multiple times. And and when he finally and he he’s alive through most of it. You can hear him breathing and and reacting. And then finally when, he dies and she’s still holding him in this embrace, she says, you were right. It does feel amazing. Like, it’s so perverse, but I thought that they, that the filmmakers did it in such a way, in such an effective way, like it, it feels like a really intimate moment, and oh man, I just thought it was really effective. 

Simone:  Right. And she’s also like kinda she kisses his shoulder, kind of caresses him as she’s holding like his dead weight against her Todd. And I I wonder why she kills him so slowly if as if she feels betrayed, that he tries to escape from her. Just like how the stranger not stranger. Well, stranger, that she brings to her house after she visits the local bar and she tries to escape, she gets very offended. Like, no. No. No.   Let let me drive you. Let me take you home. Please don’t leave me. Please don’t go. And then she sees this man, Charlie, that she’s been bathing, feeding, taking care of in a strange way these past years who tries to leave her and she just kills him slowly out of spite. But yet it’s also confusing as to why she would do that and not just chain him back up if she was so lonely. 

Craig:  Right. You you know, an idea Agreed. 

Todd:  An idea has just come to me. It puzzled me, like I said earlier, why, she this guy being available to her for so long, I just assumed that there had always that there had developed some kind of sexual something there to at least fulfill her needs. But it clear it seems to imply, especially, you know, how significant admit you know, the scene when she, you know, undresses in front of him that this is the first time that this has happened. I wonder if there what if if you couldn’t read that maybe there was some incestuousness going on between the the father and the daughter because it’s not until, you know, he’s gone that she starts reaching out for these intimate relationships. And why wouldn’t she reach out to to char Charlie first? It might be because at that point, you know, up until now, she’s been kind of a mother figure for him. Mhmm. She’s been taking care of him like you take care of her. You know, her doll.   Even as an adult, she’s got that doll that figures prominently in in shots or in the background and stuff. And there’s even a shot of when she’s older and we see that she’s still taking care of Charlie, that her his her dolls are sitting around him. Like he’s like another one of her dolls. Mhmm. You know, like a like a girl. She’s still very much a child in a way, taking care of a doll, like play mothering. Mhmm. And so maybe it’s not until she is unsuccessful with the woman that she then kind of resigns herself to try it with Charlie.   And then when he also rejects her, you know, she has to take care of it. But she does it in a way that, like a tough love kinda way, you know, like a really sick Right. Tough love way. I don’t know. 

Craig:  At the same time, I feel like that’s kind of why the movie is interesting from a psychological perspective because, I don’t know, whether or not you wanna read into it that there is anything incestuous going on with her dad. I I kinda didn’t get the sense that there was. But if a person, any person, male or female, was so entirely isolated, like what happens when those desires start to emerge? Like, where do you channel that energy? Maybe maybe it would have been channeled to her father had he been around longer, or maybe it was if you wanna go along with that, I don’t know. But when she’s in when she’s completely alone and she’s so desperate, if she’s having these natural human desires for intimacy, you know, how is that where do you where do you get that outlet? And and and finally, you know, she she finds it with with Charlie. I don’t know, I just I just think that’s kind of fascinating, that that that concept of complete and total isolation. And throughout, you know, she’s still trying to connect with her mom. After, she kills, Charlie, she cuts up and I guess maybe burns up part of her dad, and she says, what am I going to do? I can’t be alone anymore. And and she, you know, while she’s out there she falls asleep in the woods and she wakes up and she comes stumbling out of the woods onto the highway and I thought, oh, here we are, we’re back at the beginning.   Yeah. 

Todd:  She’s true. 

Craig:  She is gonna be the woman. Yeah. She’s the woman who is stumbling along the road. And it turns out that that’s not true and it really surprised me. She gets picked up by a pickup truck, not a semi truck, but a pickup truck. And that’s when the screen goes to black again and we get the, chapter 3 family. And it turns out that she has been picked up by this woman who we don’t know, and, this woman has an infant child. And as soon as I saw that, as soon as it cuts that, I I thought, oh, no.   Oh, no. This is not going to not going to turn out well. 

Simone:  Yeah. 

Todd:  And it’s just so weird because I don’t know. It seemed like when they were driving along the street that I saw other houses passing behind them. Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. And that was, that’s something again that I thought was so weird. Like, the woman who was in the truck, like they’re driving along and, of course, Francisca is fascinated with the baby, but the woman is like, You’re just right up here, right? And what it made me think was they must live in this small town where they know that this crazy lady lives. Doctor. 

Todd:  Yeah. Doctor. 

Craig:  Like, Oh, you’re the crazy lady that lives over there. I mean, I can drive you home. Like, oh, man. It it it’s weird. It’s it’s weird, but I like it. 

Todd:  Yep. Yep. She’s got I mean, you know what’s coming a mile away. You can definitely see it coming, especially with the the title family. 

Simone:  Yeah. And I think this this last 15 minutes of the movie was probably the most gut wrenching for me. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Yes. Yes. 

Simone:  Not it’s it’s not losing the mom, not losing the dad, but what she does to this young mother, to Yeah. Fran Francisca takes the baby. She she asks when when the, mother is getting ready to drop her off at the house, she goes Do you think 

Todd:  I could just hold Antonio? I’m sorry. We really have to get going. Please Caleb? Just for a little bit? Okay. Okay. Let’s do a quick, a quick one. Yes, of course. Of course, we can. Come on now, guy.   Yeah. We made a new friend today. Look at that. She’s gonna just hold you. Mhmm. It’s okay. It’s okay. Okay.   So you just wanna hold his head up. There you go. Alright, baby. Okay. Good job, baby. He likes his little one. His little What are you? Sing. What are you doing? 

Simone:  No. And so Francisca runs into the house, with the baby quick enough you know, quick enough to run upstairs. So the mom must have really, like, struggled with 

Todd:  With that seat belt. 

Craig:  Trying to get out. And I 

Simone:  don’t mean to laugh about it because it is really sad. 

Todd:  Sad. It did look a little goofy though. 

Simone:  It did. And, and I’m not a mother, but you have to imagine like the state of panic that’s going through your mind. It’s like, oh my Todd. My baby. My baby. My baby. And so she runs upstairs. Her baby is laying on the bed and 

Todd:  Screaming the whole time. 

Simone:  Screaming, Craig, and, Francisca comes up behind her, stabs her in the back. And and the mother is alive, but crawling on the floor saying, you know, please don’t hurt my baby. Don’t hurt my baby. And, 

Todd:  Takes her a long time to die. 

Simone:  She doesn’t die. 

Craig:  Oh, that’s right. She 

Todd:  doesn’t die. You’re right. 

Simone:  And that’s and that’s the most terrible part. It’s even worse because that’s when we realized that Francisca takes the eyes and the vocal cords because the worst scene of this movie is when the mom tries to scream and yell, and she just can’t. There’s no sound. There’s nothing there, and it’s just awful because she knows that her baby is there somewhere and there’s nothing she can do. And then time goes by, we’re assuming maybe 5 years or so old enough that, the the baby is now a young boy, maybe 5, 6 years old. And he sees what he thinks is his mom, go to the barn every so often. And Francisca doesn’t take care of this mother that she kidnapped, I suppose, in the same way that she takes care of Charlie. No.   She doesn’t bathe her. She just 

Todd:  feed her to the mouth. You know, she doesn’t spoon feed her, basically. 

Simone:  Just tosses her buckets every every now and again. 

Todd:  Yeah. And 

Craig:  Well, that was kindness for a stranger now has been mutilated and held captive in these terrible conditions for what must have been years years. And the suggestion that I got was that despite all of this mutilation, I can’t imagine how anybody could hold on to any scrap of humanity living in those conditions. But the suggestion that I got was that she held onto the love of her child. Like that’s what, what kept her going. And it seemed like any time somebody came in, whether it was Francisca or eventually it was the little boy who they named I think Antonio, It’s as though she was clinging to this hope that she might be reunited with her child. And that was just, oh, just gut wrenching for me. And, eventually, once Antonio is old enough, he though he has been forbidden from looking in the barn, he does go out there and he sees her. And at first, he thinks she’s a monster.   And I thought that the filmmakers did a really good job of making her like a monster. Like when he goes out there, he hears he hears some strange noises and then this this woman who’s chained up and disfigured emerges from the shadows. Like, you can’t see her at all, and then she emerges from the shadows, and she’s just making these guttural kind of growling noises. And and she looks monstrous and he thinks she’s a monster and he runs away and hides and says, It’s just a nightmare. It’s just a nightmare. It’s just a nightmare. But apparently he realizes it’s not just a nightmare, and he confronts Francisca and says, who is that in the barn? And Francisca says, what? I thought I told you not. I thought I told you 

Todd:  not to go in the barn. 

Craig:  And it doesn’t linger on this very much and I appreciated that. This kid being innocent, being young, there’s just something that tells him apparently that this is not right, that there shouldn’t be somebody locked up in the barn. And he goes in the night and and freeze her. 

Todd:  He doesn’t share the same genetics, I guess. Exactly.   Family. That’s the first that’s the first thing.   Yeah. He frees her, you know, kinda runs out. I guess he unhooks her chains or something and runs out, and this woman, stumbles out. I I thought for sure that, Francisca was gonna find her or notice the noise or whatnot, but this woman does get away and it horrifies Francisca when she finds out. She goes out and then digs up her mother. 

Simone:  Happy Mother’s Day. 

Todd:  Yeah. Happy Mother’s Day, everybody. This is the whole point of the episode. 

Simone:  And she’s, like, she’s not completely decomposed, but we see her, like, cradling a skull and, you know, there’s still, like, clothes on the body and stuff. And she’s just, like, what do I do now? And, 

Craig:  oh. And it’s 

Todd:  it’s what She’s 

Craig:  still, like, seeking food for the night. 

Todd:  I wish you could meet Antonio. 

Simone:  Yeah. We’re the perfect family. And, oh my goodness. But it’s interesting that she’s still seeking, like, guidance and approval from 

Todd:  Her mother. 

Simone:  From her mom. Yeah. 

Todd:  And, it all wraps up pretty quickly from here. 

Simone:  Yeah. 

Todd:  She basically, I guess, puts her back in the ground, shovels a few more piles of dirt over her. And as she’s walking back to the house, it’s nighttime, she sees 3 cars pulling up to the, to the house. And honestly, again, another place where this movie really subverted my expectations. She runs inside, grabs Antonio and a knife, and cowers in a corner. 

Simone:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And, you know, says, please don’t hurt my baby. Don’t hurt my baby or something. And then the next shot is this overhead shot of the house with the police there. And we don’t see them drag her out, I don’t think, or anything like that. But I think the implication is that it’s over for her. You know? 

Craig:  Mhmm. Well, and and We 

Simone:  now learn that the mother who was kidnapped, Antonio’s mother, is the woman in chains and she Yes. 

Todd:  Oh, yes. Sorry. 

Simone:  Down in front of 

Todd:  of the   Skip that part. 

Simone:  Of the truck and and she’s rescued. So somehow manages without a voice to convey, what had happened to her. And I was I was talking about this or thinking about this, how, like, if if you’re held captive, you in order to keep going, you have to give yourself some kind of affirmation or confirmation that, like, one day I will get out of this. So, like, okay. I’m on this street. The house was on this road and this street So that if I’m ever rescued, I can, like, tell people where my son is or where I was found or where I came from 

Todd:  and stuff 

Simone:  like that. So she must have 

Todd:  Memorized that. 

Simone:  Memorized everything, found a way to tell people. 

Craig:  I totally understand what you’re saying. At the same time, my thought was how, just how, how could you at that at that point after being held for that long, how could you hold on to any shred of humanity? I mean, after being treated worse than an animal for that long, how could you maintain any kind of consciousness or or humanity? But I tell myself in my mind, not being a parent, if you were a parent and you thought that there was some shred of hope that you could, rescue your child, maybe you could hold on to that. But, yeah, that end was really interesting. You know, Franchesca, when the police arrived, you know, she’s coming out of the woods having visited her mother, and and she sees the cops coming. And she runs in and she wakes him up, and she says to him, and this to me, you know, Franchesca’s not a good person. It’s hard to blame her for her situation, but you can’t just kill people and steal their babies. Like that’s just not how it works. So, you know, but but I found myself feeling sympathy for her and she runs up and she wakes him up and and he’s like, what’s wrong? He’s scared obviously because she’s panicking and she says, there’s nothing wrong.   But no matter what you learn, don’t let it change the way that you feel about me. And and even when he had found her, found the the real mother in the barn, when when Franchesca had been talking to him, she said, Everything I do, I do for you. Every I would do anything to keep us together. And you believe her, like as horrible as the things that she has done are, I felt bad for her, you know, she just wanted this companionship. And then you see, you don’t even really see the cops come in, you hear them, and you see Francesca and Antonio huddled together. And then like Todd said, it cuts to that aerial shot of the house with the cop cars outside. I heard a gunshot. Did you hear a gunshot? Yeah.   No. I I think I heard a I’m pretty sure I heard a gunshot. And and on Wikipedia, which is the penultimate of all sources 

Todd:  Leave the source. 

Craig:  The plot, the description says that the police kill her. Now I I think that they are jumping to conclusions there. I think that that, is is very much left up left up to the interpretation of the viewer. But regardless of what happens, the ending feels tragic. I mean, it’s it’s nothing works out for anyone, you know? Poor Francisca, whatever happens to her can’t be good. Antonio, this poor kid, you know, has lost his mother, has lost any sense of normalcy. That poor mother, though she has been rescued, you know, what kind of life can she live now after what she’s been through? I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s a tragic ending and, and it ends so abruptly and I liked that. I liked that it ended so abruptly.   That was, you know, it was, it was kind of a gut punch like, like, we don’t get to know what happens. 

Simone:  Yeah. Will Antonio be reunited with his mom and 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Yeah. Will the will the power finally go out at the at the phone house? And and what’s, you know, what what has she been hauling in and out of the freezer this whole time? She’s got body parts going in and out of the fridge. I was a little unclear on that that little detail. I mean, were we supposed to believe she was feeding, Charlie with with the the pieces of her dad or and the pieces of and she doesn’t kill enough people for this to be kind of like a regular thing. But are we just supposed to imagine that she’s treating the people as she treats the cows? 

Craig:  And- Well, and that’s another thing. And I think that I like it about this movie even though in the moment it was kind of frustrating. You know, the whole thing with how does she live out there, you know, how does this farm sustain with the electricity and blah blah blah, etcetera, etcetera. Unbelievable. When when she, okay, so Charlie was this transient guy who went around killing people, probably would go unnoticed that he went missing. But when the girl that she killed went missing, wouldn’t anybody have noticed? Wouldn’t there have been an investigation? Wouldn’t somebody have seen her? When when this woman who clearly apparently lives in her community, when this woman and her child go missing, wouldn’t there have been some investigation? Wouldn’t there have been some uproar? And and she was never investigated? Like Todd ever just even came and knocked on her door and said have you seen like there are so many things that went unanswered. Even when when she went to get Charlie for their rendezvous, like, she was cuddling him in the barn and it looked like he had a big hole in his back. I couldn’t tell if that was supposed to be just like like a bed sore or if she had done something to him.   Like there were all of these things that were unanswered, and in the moment, I was frustrated. I wanted to know. But now, having seen the whole thing, that intrigue I think was effective. You know, it it made me wonder and it leaves me thinking, and if that’s what they were trying to do, I applaud it. If they were plot holes, then whatever. But it it left it left me, confused and interested, and I actually ended up appreciating that in the end. 

Todd:  Yeah. What you say there really kinda sums up my feeling about the movie. I I really enjoy it a lot more talking about it. I really do. 

Craig:  Me too. Me too. And we’ve talked about it for almost as long as 

Todd:  the movie. I know. 

Simone:  I know. We’re really dissecting it. 

Todd:  It’s true. It’s true. You can just watch the movie and get your own opinion instead listen   to us jabbering. But for sure, I mean, I have to say, I felt like there were parts that were a little trite. I felt that there were parts that were long for the sake of just being long. I know that there was a point to it. I know that the filmmaker was trying to establish a sense of, you know, it makes it creepier to make it feel like it’s kind of normal. It makes it creepier to show this scene go on for so long that it almost looks pedestrian. You know, that these horrible things are happening, but it’s just more day to day stuff. You know, she goes out and and and and she’s as a girl, she’s feeding the cows.   And then the next shot, she’s in there feeding, you know, the guy just like, you know, she’s it’s another chore for her to do during the day. I got it. I got it a long time ago. You know, I was looking for just maybe a little bit more to happen. And I don’t think I needed to see so much of this domestic stuff playing out for so long. I I was able to sit through it and enjoy it this time, you know, because I was in the mood for it, sitting and chilling. But I can’t say that if I had sat down and watched this movie when I was really in the mood for something else, or even when I was just the slightest bit more impatient for for, you know, the plot to move along, that I wouldn’t have been a little more bored and frustrated. Todd again, I probably would have come to the same place though by the end of it.   I probably would talk about it with you guys, and then I would appreciate it a lot more. But I can’t say that while I watched it, I was, you know, a 100% behind the movie and, like, entertained. You know what I mean? 

Simone:  Yeah. You had asked me, like, did you watch this movie before and just like it so much that you bought the DVD of it, or have you not heard of it previously and or not watched it previously and bought it? And and it’s not a movie that I want to keep in my collection. What you decide to do with the DVD is up to you. 

Todd:  She’s bestowing it upon me on her way out of China. 

Simone:  Because the cover is really creepy, and every now and again, it would, like, poke through behind the other DVDs on my shelf. I’m like, I don’t wanna see that. 

Todd:  You’re, like, push it back. 

Simone:  I had to put it in 

Todd:  a drawer 

Simone:  because I didn’t want it, like, sitting around. And this is I’m glad we reviewed this movie because it is one of those movies that kind of leaves you feeling very unsettled, just with the imagery, the plot, and, just the the general story and what Francesca as a character goes through. But, yeah, it’s not like a movie that I would typically have in my collection. I tend to get the classics and the slashers and things like that. So I don’t know if I’ll ever go back and be like, I’m really in the mood to watch this movie because it is slow and it is it’s not for everyone, but it is it is a horror movie that makes you think in different ways than other horror movies would. 

Craig:  Like, this messes with your mind. 

Simone:  Exactly. I don’t watch Friday 13th this way. Yeah. With a critical lens or anything like that. 

Todd:  True. 

Craig:  Yeah. We, we reviewed The Witch, sometime last year, and and that movie got a lot of criticism for being kind of slow and kind of being a slow burn. I really liked it, and and I think that I as I was watching this movie, it it was only 75 minutes longer or so. It felt longer because it’s such a slow burn. But ultimately, I’m glad to have watched it. And I think that I would watch it again because especially after all the things that we’ve talked about, I feel like I could look at it in a variety of perspectives. And, I don’t know. I I just feel like it’s there’s something smart about it.   There’s something unique and original and smart about it. And I feel like I could watch it again and watching it for a second time. I feel like maybe I would see more and get more out of it. This isn’t one that I probably would have picked up on my own. So again, Simone, thank you, for for recommending this because I I doubt very much that I ever would have just chosen to watch this. But, I’m left feeling intrigued, by it and and and I enjoyed the experience overall. I would recommend it. 

Todd:  Yes. Thank you, Simone. Good good call. 

Simone:  It’s good to switch things up every now and again. 

Craig:  It is. 

Simone:  And it was also important for me to pick a film this time that didn’t center around an attractive male lead because believe it or not, on the last two times that I’ve guest on this podcast, I’ve talked very heav heavily about, some actors, and that’s not 

Todd:  Some actors. 

Simone:  Jekyll Blimp. And that’s not why I always watch movies, believe it or not. That’s I like like listening back to those episodes. I’m like, wow. Oh my god. I sound like such a girly girl. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and Simone is not a girly girl. Well, I guess she has her moments. 

Craig:  We we’ll just leave it 

Todd:  at that. Well, thank you, Simone, for picking this and for the theme. Happy Mother’s Day, everybody. 

Simone:  Happy Mother’s Day. 

Todd:  Happy Mother’s Day.   Hey. Don’t just get your kids by normal means. Don’t steal others. 

Simone:  Hug your mothers extra tightly this weekend, but don’t dig them up out of the grave. 

Todd:  That’s right. Exactly. Well, thank you again for   listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this, please share it   with a friend. And you can find us on Google Play, iTunes, and Stitcher, anywhere your favorite podcasts are sold. You can also find us on Facebook. If you, go to our page there, you can like us. You can leave a comment, and you can also let us know what you thought of our very long assessment of this bill. Very long. Until Craig