2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

We’ve reached 100 episodes! To celebrate this milestone, Craig and I chose a special film that we’ve been wanting to do for a while. Based on the novel by Ray Bradbury, from a script from Ray Bradbury, this was a bit of a dark turn for Disney at the time. We both love this film and we think you will too.

Episode 100, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Craig, it’s our 100th episode. Our 100th episode. Wow.   Glad we’re just gonna quit after this?

Craig:  Yeah. Call it a day. 

Todd:  100 is such a nice round number. It’s like 100. Wow. Okay. So we’ve made it this long, and we decided to do a movie that I think is kind of special for both you and I. Yeah. Perhaps. At least I think we both remember it from our childhoods.   And this is Something Wicked This Way Comes from 1983. This movie scared me to death as a kid. In fact, I’ll tell you we probably watched this I would imagine it was 1985, maybe 1986 my dad rented this for me. This is one of the first movies that I watched with my dad that I got so scared that I asked him to turn it off. We got to the scene toward the end of the movie and I was so scared and he was letting me stay up extra late to watch the movie because we’d started it late and I was way past my bedtime. He’s like, that’s okay. Well, we can finish the movie. And I said Dad stop stop.   He’s like really? I’m like yes turn off the TV. I’ll go to bed. We’ll finish it in the morning. I must have been in like 1st or second grade. Right. Right? Because this came out in 1983. We were both in kindergarten back then I think ish somewhere around there. But this is interesting in that it’s a Disney movie.   Right. This is one of the first movies I think, that Disney when Disney was trying out different things actually the early eighties weren’t the really good times for Disney. Mhmm. And I know they had Watcher in the Woods, which was a little before this, but that was maybe their first attempt at almost an outright horror type movie. Right. That’s not strictly family fair. And this one I feel like came kind of on the heels of that several years later as another attempt at doing something that’s just a little more, a little broader behind their kind of happy go lucky type films that they were doing, you know, before this. Right.   It does stand out in the era of Disney there as being, unique. And who better to turn to at that time than Ray Bradbury, to pen this kind of this kind of thing. Oh, my gosh. And he did a screenplay   of this   based on his book. 

Craig:  Right. Yeah. And sadly, the movie didn’t do well. It it had all kinds of problems in production and, it ended up not doing well and they just kind of abandoned that line. You know, they they didn’t move forward with it, which is too bad. Because even though you can tell that there were some reshoots and some things that maybe could have been better, I think overall it stands up as a pretty solid movie. And as we were watching it this time, I really forgot. I’ve seen this movie so many times.   And every time I watch it, I’m surprised by how actually really dark they go with it. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s PG and and, you know, rightfully so. It’s not really violent. There’s there’s little to no swearing. I mean, it’s fairly tame, but it features some dark themes, and and some really scary scenes, like you said. Bradbury, I I actually don’t have the same history with it that you have because I didn’t, see this movie when I was a kid. I don’t know how I missed it.   Really? But I read the book. I read Bradbury’s book when I was in high school. I just picked it up and read it, you know, off the library shelves. And this is one of and I don’t I love horror movies, but I love reading horror too. And this is one of only 2 books that ever really, really scared me. Really? It was This and The Shining. 2 books that, you know, really got a a kind of a visceral reaction out of me. And it wasn’t until I started teaching high school that I found out that there even was a movie.   And I was blown away that it had been around since the early eighties and I’d never seen it. Oh. So I I ordered it off Amazon or something. I got it. And I was super impressed with the cast. I mean like this cast is amazing. 

Todd:  The cast is really good. 

Craig:  You’ve got Jason Robards who, you know, very famous for both stage and screen, playing Charles Holloway, the father of these 2 young boys who the the plot revolves around. And then you’ve got Jonathan Pryce as mister dark. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Who is the central antagonist. And Jonathan Pryce, I knew from his work on Broadway. He originated the role of the engineer in Miss Saigon. Mhmm. And I was a big fan of that. But this was the first time I’d really seen him on screen. He was also, the male lead, in Evita much much later. 

Todd:  Is that right? 

Craig:  Yeah. He he’s been on stage and in movies forever. And and those 2 guys alone, I mean they’re just, they’re powerhouses of acting, and they only really get one fairly big scene together, but just so much presence, on stage. And then, Diane Ladd is in there. Pam Grier. Pam Grier. Is in there. 

Todd:  So like you said just before we started this movie, oh, by the way, Pam Grier is in this. And I was like, Pam Grier?   And then I thought that, oh, yeah.   She’s the the fortune teller. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It’s so weird how she plays in this movie. She’s well, she’s isn’t just not Pam Grier. No. At all.   Yeah. And I wouldn’t have recognized her as 

Craig:  a kid. I don’t think I would have recognized her even today had I not looked it up. I mean, she looks she’s much younger. She’s just gorgeous. Yeah. In the movie she plays this really beautiful, gypsy woman, which is actually one of the differences in the book. She’s like this old dust witch is how they describe her. 

Todd:  And she’s 

Craig:  all wrinkly and dusty, and I think her eyes are sewn shut. Different portrayal, but still, I like it a lot. Yeah. And and then, you know, the a couple of little kid actors who I don’t really think did much, before or after playing the two leads of Will and Jim. But I just I love the book, and the movie both. Not just because it’s scary and there’s excellent elements of, fantasy and and supernatural stuff going on, But also, you know, it’s it’s a a coming of age story. It’s a story about a relationship, kind of a strained relationship between a father and a son. It’s it’s a story about, you know, how to deal with getting older and living with, regret and those types of things.   There’s a lot going on in this story. The book is just absolutely beautifully written. You know, it reads almost like poetry. And because Bradbury came to do the screenplay, it really follows the book pretty darn closely. There are a couple of scenes that they tweet, and I think that they tweet those in post. And Bradbury wasn’t particularly happy about it. 

Todd:  Is that right? 

Craig:  Yeah. He ended up saying that, when he saw the finished product of the movie, he ended up saying it’s not a great movie, but it’s perfectly decent. And and some of that was because he wrote the screenplay and they shot it as he wrote it. But when they tested it, it didn’t test well at all. They went back and, they rewrote some of the scenes. They changed the score entirely. They scrapped the original score. 

Todd:  Is that right? 

Craig:  They scrapped the original score entirely, hired on, I think, James Horner to do a new score. We’ll talk as we go through the Todd about a couple of the scenes that were changed. And they they changed them because they didn’t test well, and because they just didn’t have the technology for the effects that they wanted. They tried, they tried really darn hard. One of the scenes that they ended up cutting was actually the first scene in cinematic history, I think, at least based on what I’ve read, to utilize CGI. Oh, really? Right. And, you know, they used it in combination with traditional animation, but it just didn’t test well. And the executives didn’t think that it looked real enough.   They thought it looked hokey. So they went back in and filmed some other scenes. And it’s funny because I don’t think you’d notice if you were just watching it for, you know, casually. But you really can tell what the changed scenes were because it was a year later and these little boys had grown. Like they’re supposed to be 12 years old and they play very realistically 12 years Todd, prepubescent, kinda high voices. Yeah. And in 2 scenes, in particular, which we’ll get to the spider scene and the closing scene with the mirror maze. If you look closely, you can tell that they are noticeably older.   Oh. And and both one of the boys, Jim Nightshade is supposed to have dark hair. And Will, Holloway, the other boy was supposed to have blonde hair. In real life, the actors had opposite, but they but they wanted them for those roles so they dyed their hair. But when they brought them back to shooting these extra scenes, the boys didn’t wanna dye their hair Craig, so they’re in wigs. And you can tell that their voices are are lower. You know, they’ve obviously kinda crossed over that puberty threshold. It’s it’s not distracting enough that many people would even notice.   I didn’t notice. If you’re paying attention, 

Todd:  you can tell. I see. I don’t know all this history. I can’t wait to hear about it from you. Well, you know, this is right in Bradbury’s wheelhouse. One of my Bradbury is one of my all time favorite authors. Yeah. And I also read the book, but I I read the book in high school after having seen the movie.   And one thing about him is he is one of these authors and not are not many of them out there who can adapt their own material for the screen. Yeah. Like, they’re able to do it. They’re able to make that leap and realize that they can’t keep every precious little thing in their book over to the screen. And I remember the book being a lot more expansive. Yeah. And it just kind of again like poetry. And when I was watching this movie also I felt like gosh this movie is like poetry.   It’s a literary kind of plot, you know? Like the plot is secondary to the themes Right. And the ideas and, the characterizations and everything Todd the point where, you know, even watching it this time around, I haven’t seen it for years. And watching it this time around, I was like, wow, this plot, it’s fast. Yeah. Like, it goes by really quickly. And I was a little shocked because in my memory in my head, I thought that the movie was longer, you know, but it’s a nice tight 98 minutes. But there’s so much in there, yeah, that, I think it’s the kind of movie where you think about it long afterwards and it probably plays out in your mind a little slower in in the re in the rethinking of it. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. And I think especially if you’ve read the book, the book is so well paced too. I mean, there’s a lot of action going on, but you get a lot more insight into the character’s thoughts and emotions, especially, with the dad, Charles Holloway. You know, he’s really going through this internal struggle. He’s older. He feels like he hasn’t accomplished some things in his life that he wanted to. He feels like because he’s older, he can’t really relate to his young son, and and they kind of have some history, that he is struggling with. And I think that it plays really well in the movie, and Jason Robards does a great job, but you just get more of it in the book.   I mean, watch the movie, it’s fantastic. But if you’re a reader, this it’s a great book too. It’s set in, small town Illinois in the 9 early 19 fifties, I believe. 

Todd:  Okay. 

Craig:  And, it’s Green Town, Illinois. And the movie opens up, with these beautiful, like, pastoral shots of the autumn. And it’s just beautiful to look at. It’s some of it was shot in Vermont. Some of it was shot in, the the Walt Disney Studios in Burbank. But and you can tell. I mean, the the stuff in in the city, you know, in the town, it’s clearly a sound scene. 

Todd:  Sound set. Yeah. Yeah. 

Craig:  But it looks good. I mean, it’s very nostalgic and and, it it it’s a really limited set. You can tell, you know, it’s probably just one street. 

Todd:  Yeah. Because that’s all you ever see. Right. Well, and it’s the same way with the characters. You really only see a handful of characters. There’s not a lot for you to keep up with. And I and honestly, like, I guess if you did have a criticism, if they had a few more extras in the background, you know, if they if they had some ancillary characters kinda walking by here and there, it would have felt a little more filled in. But, the the film does a really good job at the beginning, I think, of just taking you through everything you need to know.   Like within the first 10 minutes, you have a strong sense of what’s going on, who all these different characters are that you’re going to meet during the film, and what their particular hang up is. Mhmm. Right? And what their particular desire and dream is. And that’s really the one of the themes that run through this is, unrequited, dreams and desires. And, and and it’s just so skillful in the way that it does that. It almost seems effortless. And even even with a a little bit of voice over at the beginning Yeah. 

Craig:  You know, 

Todd:  lots of times when you gotta resort to voice over in a film, it’s like, oh, really?   Yeah. You   know? But Radbury is so good that it’s just like poetry.   First of all, it was October, a rare month for boys. Full of cold winds, long nights, dark promises. Days get short. The shadows lengthen. The wind warns in such a way you want to run forever through the fields. Because up ahead, 10,000 pumpkins lie waiting to be cut. 

Craig:  It’s it’s funny. I don’t wanna shatter your dreams, but I don’t think he wrote that. He didn’t write that. I I don’t think he did. I think that that’s one of the things that they went back and put in in post. 

Todd:  The voice over at the beginning. I think they they didn’t lift it from the novel though? 

Craig:  I don’t know. Maybe they did, but I I think they actually kind of went behind Bradbury’s back and hired a secondary writer to clean some things up. Interesting.   And I   think that that’s one of the things. But I mean, it fits very well within the tone of the piece. You never know. In fact, I think that it it adds to it. You know, I don’t it doesn’t seem like a detraction at all. And it really just establishes this kind of nostalgic feel. And plus, you know, I know you kinda grew up all over the place, but, you know, this is rural America. You know, this is home to me.   You know, small town America, and it’s really easy to relate to. And that’s another thing about the book that I think is so easy to relate to. Both when I was reading it when I was younger, granted I was older than the boys, but not that much. And you know, I remembered being an adolescent and prepubescent and all that stuff. And they’re really relatable. You know, you you you see yourself in these characters. Mhmm. You know, I don’t know.   I can’t speak for everybody. Maybe young ladies have a different experience. But I think, you know, guys like us can really relate to that. And now, having grown up and gotten older, you start to see things from the dad’s point of view. Yeah. You do. And and, you know, we’re not old yet. We’re getting there.   But, you know, you think about what might have been, what could have been, and, what, you know, you could have done better, how you could have lived a better life. And so there’s just so much humanity to it that it really works, especially since it’s not really that original of an idea. I mean, this is kind of a tale as old as time. You know, being tempted, you know, by the devil or whomever, some evil force, who’s willing to grant you your every desire. But then that comes with a consequence. Yeah. And that’s really the backbone for the whole movie, but you come to care about your central character so much. Even the ancillary characters like the the townspeople, they’re presented not as bad people, just as people who maybe are flawed in some way or maybe have some regret or something.   And you can empathize and and understand why they could be easily tempted, especially if they didn’t know what the consequences were gonna be. And it just plays out so well 

Todd:  on a character level. Yeah. It’s not like a Tales from the Craig scenario where people get what’s coming to them Right. Because they’re they’re they’re bad, you know, or they’re twisted somehow inside. It’s like you said, you relate to these people. They seem happy enough. Right. Right? Well, first you’ve got Will Halloway and Jim Nightshade.   Shea. Jim’s the one with the black hair. Will is the one with the blonde hair. And they’re again, relatable because what is their biggest hang up right now is who’s older. Right. They’re like born on the same day apparently but one was like an hour or 2 over the other one, Jim was. And but yet Jim still wants to be older. He’s the one who, like, really wants to grow up.   And and Will is he even says something hilarious early on. He’s like, well, I I won’t always be younger than you. That was just something a kid would say. Right. So you’ve got them and and that, but they’re just like yin and yang, basically. They’re almost meant, I think, in in kind of a metaphorical sense to be the same person. Absolutely. Right? 

Craig:  I mean, you’ve got the you’ve got the blonde headed light one who’s still clinging to youth and innocence, and then you’ve got the darker one whose name is Nightshade, who who really longs to be older and to have more experience. And you see it in the book, you see it here too, you know, when they have an opportunity to like peep through a hole in the tent at, the exotic dancing girls at this carnival. Will’s not interested, 

Todd:  but Jim is. That’s right. 

Craig:  You know, they’re right there on that cusp Yeah. Between childhood and adolescence. Yeah. 

Todd:  It’s a metaphor for puberty right there. Yeah. Yeah. That moment. And then it’s that magical time. It’s the magical summer that they’ll never forget. Right? That the moment they crossed into manhood or whatever at 12 years Todd. Right? Right before you’re a teen.   Yeah, it’s just really poetic in that way. And then it takes you around Todd, again I think a very skillful way where they’re just they’re running around and it does resort to quite a bit of voiceover. And again, it is a bit of a cheat and I can see maybe, yeah, well, maybe Bradbury wouldn’t wouldn’t have cheated that hard, but I think it works just because of, again, the the language that they use is   so good. The cigar store was owned by mister Tetley, a man obsessed with money. What’s her name, 

Craig:  mister Fricetti? 

Todd:  Mister Korsetti, our barber, cut my hair a 1000 times, always talking about faraway ladies he would never know. I remember Ed the barman, yesterday’s football hero, still haunted by 40 yard runs down the dark fields of his dreams.   The barman who’s lost an arm and a leg somehow, somewhere. 

Craig:  Yeah. I guess military service problem. 

Todd:  That was my guess. Right? But, but he longs for the days when he was a football star and, and much more agile. And then miss Foley, who is the teacher Uh-huh. Who’s played by what’s her name? 

Craig:  I don’t know. I don’t have it written down. I don’t think. 

Todd:  She was in a ton of these Disney movies Yeah. At the time. And, I remember her the most from, Pollyanna. She played pretty much the same character with the same glasses in like every film. But you know, she’s a teacher who’s Todd, but the kids and again, all of this is from the kids’ perspective, right? Like that’s what’s so cool about this movie is it puts you in this kid perspective but as they’re describing her they’re saying, they say I don’t believe it that at one time she was the most beautiful woman in town. Right. You know, like you just can’t believe as a child that adults had these other lives and that they were younger and just like you at this one point. And so she’s sort of pining for her beauty.   And again, all this gets introduced to you like within the first 10 minutes. First as the kids are traipsing through town and you get this voiceover and then again as Will’s father, mister Halloway, comes through town, and has the more adult conversation with everybody. But this is something that I noticed this time around that I hadn’t noticed before, Once again, really funneling you into that kid’s perspective, is that you get the first names of the kids. And there’s only one instance where you ever get a first name on an adult. Really? They’re all mister Halloway, mister Cougar, missus Foley, mister Tetley. Oh, I guess we had Ed. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But he’s young. I mean, he’s a a younger guy. 

Todd:  And everything else is mister, mister, mister, mister, mister. And later on when mister Dark is talking and attempting Jim, that’s the thing he’s saying here, mister Nightshade. He he keeps calling him mister Nightshade. Right. Right? That’s interesting. Right? Because as a kid, everybody’s mister and missus. You don’t know their first names. Right.   Yeah. It’s just a subtle thing, but that’s, I think, again, what makes this movie so brilliant. 

Craig:  Well, or even if you do know their first names, that’s not how you think of them. Yeah. Exactly. You think of them as mister or miss or missus or whatever. Yeah. And and we meet all these characters and just briefly but kind you know, seamlessly. It doesn’t really seem forced. It just seems, you know, like natural exposition kinda getting to know the town. 

Todd:  But it is like the same 5 characters. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Craig:  And and that’s true of the book too. I mean Yeah. That we, you know, we we meet a few characters. We we don’t get You get the sense that this is happening to everybody in town, but, you know, we just kinda get to peek in at, a few of the characters. 

Todd:  Right. 

Craig:  And, also, you know, I think he plays kind of a bigger role, maybe in the beginning of the novel, but there’s this lightning rod salesman, named Tom Fury who comes around and, of course, he’s trying to sell lightning rods, but he also is saying there’s a storm coming. There’s a storm coming, which obviously, you know, metaphor for what’s about to happen, in the town. And, Jim buys, a a lightning rod from him and puts it up on his house. But then, basically, you know, we get some nice interaction between the boys and their parents. Jim’s, father is absent. We don’t really know what happened to him. It just kinda says that he took off and never came back. And so he’s dealing with that.   And then, Will, you know, he he his parents, he seems to get along with his parents well except there’s this divide between him and his dad because of their age difference. And we find out later, mister Holloway refers to it a few times before we get the whole story, but we find out later that a few years ago, sometimes sometime when Will was a smaller child, his dad had taken him fishing or swimming or something in this river, and the current had caught, little Will. But, mister Halloway didn’t know how to swim and couldn’t save his own son. And he just felt absolutely helpless. Fortunately, there was somebody else there. As it turns out, it was Jim’s dad who saved Will. 

Todd:  The town drunk. The town drunk. So it was an insult to injury there. 

Craig:  Exactly. And so he’s feeling all this remorse and it’s causing this tension between them. And that’s kind of important because it it’s it’s their journey. You know? Their journey is they have to kind of find their their connection and their relationship. And by the end, of course, spoiler alert, they do. But then once we’ve been introduced to all those characters, then all of a sudden, you know, there’s these little hints of things. People will casually mention that they kind of hear music off in the distance, or they smell these exotic smells like ladies perfume or whatever. And then I feel like Will and Jim both, you know, they’re walking along the street and separately mister Halloway’s walking along the street, and they find these flyers for, this carnival is coming through, mister Dark’s Pandemonium Carnival and Sideshow, something like that.   And we see this dark mysterious figure kinda walking through the town just not even hanging these flyers off, just throwing them around so they’re blowing around in the breeze. But that piques the interest of the boys and so they sneak out to go see what’s going on. 

Todd:  That’s right. So they sneak out and, there is a a train coming through at night. And actually over the over the opening credits, we saw this long train coming towards us in the dark. And this train comes by and so they they run through this graveyard and it’s it’s as the tracks pass by a graveyard. They’re sitting there hiding in the graves and looking out at this train and it passes by but there’s nobody. There’s like nobody in the Craig, like a passenger car goes by but there’s nobody in there. There’s a car that goes by, it looks like it’s block of glass or of ice that there’s nothing inside of it. Earlier we’d actually seen a scene where a woman was encased in ice.   It’s these visions that people keep getting. It’s very sinister. There’s even even some of the angels in the in the cemetery are starting glowing. They chase after it as it goes by. And as soon as they get to the end of the tracks, boy, the carnival’s just there. Yeah. It’s like it’s been set up instantly. 

Craig:  This was it. This was the scene that they tried to do with the animation in CGI. And it was this whole big deal where the trees, on the skirts of this field, the forest were supposed to morph into the tent, and a spider web was supposed to morph into the ferris wheel. And they shot all this stuff, and I’m sure spent a ton of money on it. And then they just felt like it didn’t look Todd. So we don’t get any of that. The the it just appears kind of out of nowhere, which, you know, is unsettling enough. It is.   And it and it unsettles the boys, and they kinda look around, and and they sneak into one of the training cars, and they don’t see, but we see that there’s this gypsy woman kind of hiding off in the shadows. And, a big tarantula falls, right in front of them. And so they run away scared, but then they’re gonna go back the next day to 

Todd:  check stuff out. And, you know, as a kid, when I watched this, I, it was pretty creepy. And I got this sense that at all times this was done for their benefit. You know, the kids were meant to see this. The kids were meant to sneak in there and the kids are, you know, that just everything was the way it was supposed to be. Like like, this this evil force, these evil beings who are setting up this carnival, like we’re a 100% in control. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  You know, planning and plotting the whole thing. 

Craig:  Sure. Yeah. And, you know, as it turns out, I guess, you know, I think that is. I think that they are trying to kind of lure people in these mystical ways. But the boys, being young and curious as boys are, they come back and eventually see things they’re not supposed to see. And when they come back, you know, it’s it’s daytime.   It’s nothing but a plain, ordinary, old carnival. No. It can’t be. It can’t be ordinary. We just couldn’t see it last night in the dark.   But meanwhile, all these town people that we have seen are there and kind of weird things are happening. Like mister Crizetti, the guy who is fascinated with money all of a sudden wins the carnival lottery, I guess. Yeah. 

Todd:  Mister Tetley. Tetley. Right.   Mhmm. 

Craig:  And, he gets put on after the heat. Not only does he win a $1,000, but he also wins a ticket for the Ferris wheel. Yeah. And we see him, and a cigar. And we see him get on the Ferris wheel with this beautiful woman, and it cuts away and does a couple more things. But then it comes back and we see that when it comes back around, he’s not there anymore. Yeah. We see, miss Foley come out of the mirror maze, and she’s kind of dazed and confused, like she’s been lost in there and she doesn’t know what’s going on.   That plays out more later. We see Ed, the guy who’s missing the arm and the leg win a strong man thing, you know, that you hit the hammer and it rings the bell. He wins that and he gets a ticket to the mirror maze. And when he walks up there, he sees himself reflected restored. You know, his arm and leg restored. And so he wanders in there. The guy was was Crozzetti Crozzetti. Yep.   That one. The one who, you know, was fantasizing about women. He wins a ticket to this exotic dancer show. And the boys watch as he’s in there. And at this point, I felt like for Disney Yeah. In the eighties, this is pretty risky. Risque. It really was.   These I mean, they’re belly dancers, but it’s all lit and red. So it’s not like they’re naked or anything, but they kind of surround mister Cressetti. And then as they are spinning around him and he kind of, you know, you lose sight of him because some of the women are in front of him, but then they keep going and you notice that his clothes are coming off. Yeah.   And, you 

Todd:  know, that was that made a deep impression on me when I was a kid. That did. I didn’t even like completely understand at the time because I was so young, but you know I kind of more or less knew what was going on. That’s clever. You know, that’s a really clever way of actually getting around the censors or whatever. Sure. You know, by making him be the nude one. Uh-huh.   It’s and and the women not be, but it gets exactly the same thing across. Right? 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, yeah. And and Jim is interested and wants to look, but they get they get chased away. At that point, Will and Jim, go to the carousel which is closed. It’s under a tent and there’s a sign up that says it’s closed. But they go in there and they’re confronted by mister Cougar and mister Dark. Mister Cougar doesn’t play much of a role in the movie. He’s bigger in the, in the book, but he’s mister Dark’s partner.   They catch the boys, they pull him off the carousel, and mister Dark shows them his tattoo on his arm, which moves. It’s, like, illustrated. And I remember that being so cool from the book. And it looked you know, that we don’t see much of it. You see a lot more of it in the book. Yeah. Yeah. But but it looks good.   Well, in   the book, the snip we get. 

Todd:  In the book, mister Dark is kind of like an illustrated man. Kind of like the whole thing is that he’s got tattoos everywhere. Right. In the movie, it’s just he’s got some tattoos when it’s convenient. Sure. Yeah. 

Craig:  On budget, I’m sure. I’m sure. Of course. Of course. You know, the available effects. But it looks pretty cool. Of course, they’re intrigued. 

Todd:  Show’s over, boys. All that’s fit for you to see. Why don’t you come back later for free rides on these exotic animals? See all the fun at the fairground. What do you say? 

Craig:  But they want to see what’s going on behind the scenes. So they they they hide somewhere in the carnival and wait till it’s all shut Todd. And then they go back to the carousel and they over they see Mr. Dark and Mr. Cougar. Mr. Cougar gets on one of the horses and the carousel starts spinning backwards. And the effect, you know, it’s the eighties. 

Todd:  They did 

Craig:  the best that they could. You know 

Todd:  It’s not very good. 

Craig:  It’s it’s not great. You know, it’s a lot with like light and animation that was put in, you know, later, I’m sure. 

Todd:  It doesn’t look terrible. No. It’s fine. 

Craig:  For its time, it’s fine. But, as he spins and spins around backwards, he becomes younger and younger and younger until he’s this young boy. This creepy 

Todd:  this creepy looking little redhead. Damien kinda little redhead. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. And, mister Dark says, alright, you know, it’s time for you to go to work. And he goes off running, and the boys follow him, and they follow him to miss Foley’s house. 

Todd:  And this was really confusing to me as a kid because miss Foley had earlier remarked to the boys, oh, I’m waiting. My nephew’s coming tonight. When they chase this kid to missus Foley’s house, they see that through the shadows of the window that she’s with a boy. And so Jim, real runs up to the door, rings the doorbell amongst Will’s protests. And, she answers the door, oh, my little whisperers because they’ve been punished early. Right. And, she invites them in. I made some cookies.   And it’s interesting because even in this case, you know, at the beginning of the movie, your Will and Jim are obviously like punished like they were whispering in class or something that was a big deal in the forties. Right. Right? And, I I hate to say it but sort of in a modern movie where or at least in another kind of film where people would become stereotypes or cardboard cutouts, this was Todd be the mean teacher. Right? But she lets them in. She’s a normal teacher. Right? She lets them in. She’s like, I made some cookies. Here, come meet my nephew.   And she pulls out mister Cougar as the nephew. And as a kid I thought, what’s the deal? Is she like under some spell or what is is did he does he actually happen to look like her nephew? What’s the deal? And I think now looking at it, my explanation is that her trip through the mirror maze kind of planted this idea in her head that she would have a nephew coming to visit when maybe that she shouldn’t even have a nephew. Right. And that gave mister Cougar the end to go there. Even still, it’s it’s it’s really dubious why mister Cougar needs to be there anyway. Right. What’s he doing? Yeah. Yeah.   All these mystical and magical things can kinda happen without the presence of these people. So, yeah, it’s just kind of a weird part of the movie. Even watching it now, I still don’t doesn’t make a lot of sense. 

Craig:  But it’s creepy. Yeah. It is. And if I remember correctly, it wasn’t really clear in the novel either. Because I I think that she does mention the nephew coming before the carnival even arrives. Oh, is that right? If I remember correctly. I don’t know. But I I I’ve taught this book and that’s a question that students have asked me.   I’m like, I don’t know. Just go with it. But anyway, they, the little boy, the little creepy boy, mister Cougar, kinda sets up Will and Jim by by tossing a a stone through her window. That’s so smart. Yeah. Todd get to get them off his back. And so they run off. Well, there’s another thing I don’t think we mentioned.   And there 

Todd:  are these little scenes between Will and his dad. Yeah. And, there’s one in here somewhere where they talk about it being 3 o’clock the souls of the night when old people die. And these are pretty significant conversations even though they happen in snippet. There’s obviously some tension between Will and his father. His father is obsessed with the fact that he’s old and he’s dying. And I guess that’s tangentially related to his regret over not being able to save his son in the river because he was never taught how to he had a father who never taught him how to swim. Maybe some of it too because he felt like maybe he was a little too old to do it.   I don’t know. But, that all get kinda gets kinda mixed up in there. And Will’s like 

Craig:  I wish you could be happy. 

Todd:  Well, just tell me I’ll live forever and I’ll be happy. 

Craig:  Dad, don’t talk deaf. Someone will hear you. Dad.   And it’s funny because, you know, they’re they’re talking about that river incident. And mister Holloway, you know, it I I think he’s trying to apologize and and say why he’s remorseful. But he says something along the lines of when you reach your twilight years, it’s not what you’ve done, it’s what you didn’t do that you regret. And again, you know, that’s hard. It’s and I think that it plays so well both in the book and the movie where you’ve got this dad who wants to explain himself and wants to explain maybe why he’s a little bit distant. But then you’ve got Will who’s only 12, and it makes him uncomfortable. You you don’t know how to relate to your parents really at 

Todd:  that point. 

Craig:  You don’t know what it’s like to be older. And it’s also funny just the way that we view aging so differently today. You know, this guy’s talking like he’s got one foot in the grave. And he’s just like He’s like in his mid fifties. He would be considered young by many standards today. 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. 

Craig:  But but it’s sweet, and there are those nice moments. I’m glad you brought it up because, you know, I I talked about them a little bit, but they’re peppered throughout. And again, it’s paced really well. So you get some action, and then you it pulls back a little bit, and you get a little bit more of the character work. 

Todd:  And and I’ve just gotta mention one little thing. Like when they’re running away from missus Foley’s house, this is just one of these little touches that that makes this movie so good and tight is that they’re running through the empty street and there’s a really low shot of them of them running past this tree we’ve seen like 10 times, past the barber’s pole. And, as Will runs, he Todd on a grate as he runs by and it makes a clank sound. And, you know, this is again, this is kind of a subtle thing, but watching it today and knowing what’s gonna come later, that there’s a grate that comes. It’s just every little thing in this movie is foreshadowed. You get a little piece of what’s to come introduced to you early on, even that freaking great. Yeah. And, and I was like, man, that like, the director of this film, like, really knew what he was doing.   There’s so much care placed into this. That’s why it’s so tight. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s really well planned. Yeah. Again, then we we kinda start to see the fate of some of these people, what’s happened to them. Miss Foley is in her house. She’s looking at herself in the mirror. She sees herself reflected back young and beautiful, and she’s thrilled, and and she’s begging, please, please, yes, please. 

Todd:  She asks for it. Right. 

Craig:  She asks for it and then she gets it. But as soon as she gets it, as soon as she is actually transformed, then she goes blind. So it’s like she can’t even appreciate, you know, her own youth and beauty. Yeah. And it’s it’s all it’s all those, kind of things. Jim, kind of well, I don’t even think he says it. He he says something about wanting to go back to the carousel. And Will says   If that darn merry-go-round could make mister Cougar younger, why do you think you’d be older if you got on it and went the other way around? Is that what you figured out in your little mind, Jim Nightshade? You’d be 2 feet taller looking down at me. And you ditch me. 

Todd:  He doesn’t deny it. 

Craig:  No. He doesn’t deny it. And that’s the thing, you know. Again, it’s so relatable because, yes, when you are that age, you are still clinging to some aspects of your childhood, including maybe some of your childhood friends, but you’re so desperate to just grow up. And at one point, mister Dark says, you know, I can show you what it’s like to be a man. I can show you what adults do behind closed doors when kids are asleep. And these are the things that we, you know, we’re getting curious about at 12, 13 years old. Yeah.   And it’s just a really nice dichotomy, between those 2 boys. It’s just it’s just such good storytelling, period. Book, movie, whatever. They end up back at the carnival, and they witness this scene where mister Dark is interrogating a lightning rod salesman who he’s got strapped into an electric chair. Dark desperately wants an estimated time of arrival on when the when the storm is coming. 

Todd:  You know, it’s kinda silly when you break it down.   Yeah. Again, it’s like a thing where   this movie is more poetry than plot.   Yeah.   You just kinda have to go with this. Right? Because, I mean, obviously, a storm is gonna come sometime. We learned later that it’s it’s basically the the MO. The Yeah. You know, this is how these things go.   This is   how these things go. Exactly. So the fact that he’s torturing this lighting rod salesman, asking him for the ETA on the storm is kinda superfluous. Right. Right. 

Craig:  And and I I I I don’t remember honestly, but I think that’s something that’s added in the movie. I don’t I think that the the lightning rod salesman comes and goes in the beginning of the book. But, but we in in addition to seeing what’s happened to him, we also get to see that the other townspeople have kind of become attractions. Like the guy who was the cigar shop owner, now he is a cigar shop in Indiana. Yeah. And and, I don’t remember 

Todd:  is is the bearded woman. Right. Right. Right. Right. 

Craig:  So so and that makes sense. And that’s that’s that’s true to the book too. It’s like what they’re doing. They come and they gather souls, and then they move on. And, you know, then they’ve got all their acts and ready to go. Yeah. But as dark is torturing the lightning rod salesman, Will shouts out and says Todd it. Stop it.   So strike. He’s a little doe eyed. I mean, even the the the actor 

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. Let’s be honest. He’s really young. Let’s let’s just say 

Craig:  that he’s really young. But anyway, so then they’re discovered. And so, they go off running and mister Dark says to the gypsy woman or somebody one of the women. There’s 2 women. I get them mixed up. I can hardly tell them apart. But he says 

Todd:  Those boys, they’ve seen too much. Hunt them down and bring them back to me. 

Craig:  They run home and we see this like ghostly green mist following them. And this was the other big scene that they ended up changing in post because originally, he was supposed to dark was supposed to summon like this big monstrous hand that would reach into the boys’ room and grab them and try to pull them out. Really? Yeah. And they constructed this whole thing, like this big machine hand, but it ended up just looking too hokey. So instead and this is the one where if you pay attention, you can really tell the boys are older. Instead, after they didn’t test well, they went back and they reshot a scene with, spiders. The boys, they’re in their separate bedrooms, but they their houses are close enough that there’s a tree between them and they can kinda go back and forth between their rooms. Yeah.   It’s awesome. You know, what we all wanted when we were kids.   You know,   you see it in movies, hardly ever really happen. Yeah. But then they get beset by all these tarantulas. And, I guess they used over 200 real tarantulas. Now they had fake ones, of course, too to, you know, stick to the wall and and whatnot. But they used all these real tarantulas. And man, those boys at this point, I would guess probably 13, 14, but they’re braver than I am because I wouldn’t wanna be that many around that many spiders. And one of the boys in a panel, you know, probably, I don’t know, Comic Con or something, during interviews said that, this scene was really uncomfortable for them.   Not because they were scared of the spiders, but because there were so many of those real tarantulas that they were covered in those hairs, from the tarantula’s legs. You know, it’s almost like getting in fiber glass or something. Oh, really? Yeah. So they were yeah. So they were just desperately uncomfortable. Gosh. And and it’s not even a great scene. 

Todd:  It’s not. Especially watching it now. I have to say as a kid, I thought it was really pretty scary. But as an adult watching, you’re like, okay. It’s a bunch of spiders in their room. 

Craig:  It replaces, sadly, and and my partner doesn’t like this movie. He likes the book, but he doesn’t like this movie. And this is his biggest problem with it is that this scene replaces what we agree is the scariest scene in the book where the dust witch, comes towards their house in this monstrous hot air balloon. And like is getting closer and closer and closer to them and Jim eventually turns around and shoots the balloon with an arrow and it deflates. And the balloon is kind of presented as inanimate, but then in the book, it’s as though the balloon was actually some sort of living thing that they were utilizing. And the next day, there’s this carnival parade and they realize that not only is it not just a parade, it’s a funeral procession for the balloon and it’s a search party for the boys. Now we still get the the parade and the search party, and it is pretty ominous and scary, and they end up hiding under that grate, that you that you talked about, which which works great in the movie, one of the most intense parts 

Todd:  of the book.   Oh, it’s great. It’s a great great. 

Craig:  Yeah. The greatest great you’ll ever see. It’s one of the tense 

Todd:  most tense parts in the movie Todd. Because, again, the way it’s filmed, you just know at any moment somebody’s gonna stare down into this grate and see these kids. And mister Dark is searching. He’s looking left and he’s looking right. And and again you see mister Cressetti, you see all these people including Tom, Tom Fury who’s up on a in his chair and kind of being carried through. It’s a creepy carnival parade. Throughout this whole thing, actually, Will is warning his father. He says, dad, just be careful.   Something weird is going on. His father feels like something weird is going on Todd. And as he’s going through, he notices that the cigar shop has a sign on it that says, you know, be back later. And a guy comes up to him, I think it was the doctor, comes up to us, look, Ed’s bar is shut down. That that never happens. And they’re like, yeah, that’s weird. They go inside and they see there’s money in the cash register. At that point, mister Dart comes in and has a confrontation with them and says that he’s looking for these 2 boys.   And, Will’s dad just says, I’ve got to go out. He walks outside and there’s this really intense, scene, between him, and mister and and what’s intense about it is they’re standing over the grate where the boys are. So there’s this part of you that’s like, oh my gosh, are they going to be because Will’s father has seen them below. So he’s trying to play it off. And mister Dark is standing right there and he’s interrogating Will’s dad. And he says, these are the boys I’m looking for. And on one hand, he has Will’s, face tattooed. And on the other hand, he has Jim’s face tattooed.   You see, I yes. I know him well. His name’s, Yes? Milton Blomqvist. And, that. Oh, that’s, Avery Johnson. Yeah. Fine voyage. Fine.   Both of them quite a credit to this little town if you want to know the truth. I do want to know the truth, sir. And the truth is that you are lying. You see, I already have their names. I got them from a blind girl. Used to be a teacher hereabouts. Poor creature by the name of Foley. Will is the fairhead and Jim the dark.   Now, tell me, old man, what’s your name? 

Craig:  But at 

Todd:  the same time, the hand that has, Jim’s picture on it, clenches like a fist and blood comes out of it, and it drops down on Will’s face. So there’s this other part of you that’s thinking, this guy knows that they’re down there. 

Craig:  Yeah. I don’t know. I always wondered that. 

Todd:  I wonder it Todd, but, you know, there’s there’s again, there’s something poetic too here about the Jim’s blood being on Will’s head, and you’re just waiting to see what’s gonna happen. And he ends up walking away. 

Craig:  Well, and I think that it’s it’s such a great part of the movie and such a great part of the book because you I don’t know if you expect it, but in the real world, one would possibly expect a grown up, not necessarily to rat out the kids, but to say get out of there. You know, like Yeah. Not really understand the threat and the danger and think that they were just exaggerating it or something. But that mister Holloway trusts his son and and knows that if he’s frightened that there’s there’s gotta be good reason for it. 

Todd:  And you know, it’s interesting because the kind of relationship that he does have with his son seems to be more likely when the father is that much older. Yeah. Maybe. And again, his play is super old. He’s only in his fifties. He projects an air of, knowing the world Yeah. And having and having experience and stuff. And and his son also has a kind of maturity.   It’s a Todd, starkly as compared to Jim as a matter of fact, the kind of maturity the son has. Will is is clearly, even though he’s younger by, an hour, he’s clearly the more mature one. It’s an interesting dichotomy really when you think about it that the one who’s slightly younger who’s not eager to grow up happens to be the more rational, mature one, than the other one who’s older and eager to eat or eager to get there. Right? Right. 

Craig:  I 

Todd:  don’t know. It’s a really odd mix. 

Craig:  Well, and it it carries into the next scene because, there’s a really touching moment where, mister Holloway, pretends to drop it or he drops his cigar, and and bends down and and kind of caresses his son’s fingers through the Craig. And he just says, come to the library later. And we cut immediately to that scene. Like Yeah. End of the day Don’t 

Todd:  waste no time. 

Craig:  Right. And the boys are there. Will says something like, I didn’t think you would believe us. And he said, why not? And he says, because we’re kids. And the dad says, that’s why I believe you. Apparently, in the course of the last 45 seconds, mister Holloway has done research into the town history and has found that this has happened before. In fact, it’s happened multiple times, always in the autumn, always with long periods of years between. But there are records of these people showing up and people disappearing and and, you know, crops failing, you know, all kinds of miseries falling on this town every so often. 

Todd:  Yeah. And the record is his his own father’s diary. Right. Right? And they allude to his father earlier when we talk about him. They don’t say outright at that earlier time that he’s a preacher, but he talks about, oh, my dad my dad had devils for breakfast, lunch. We we had devils for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Mhmm. But when you know, as an adult you can read into that, okay, he’s a preacher.   And I think it’s significant. I think it’s kind of interesting that his father was a minister and that he is the town librarian. It’s sort of this lineage of as the town librarian, he’s sort of like the keeper of the town 

Craig:  records. Right? 

Todd:  He’s like the keeper of the town’s knowledge. And his father being a minister in an earlier time would have would have served a similar role, You know? And that everybody would have gone to him for information and for help and for for all that. So it’s like this lineage that passes down through them. In a way, it’s it’s a little mythical. Right? That they’re they’re destined to be the ones to confront this evil time and time again. Right. Because they’re like the head. Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. And so, you know, we get this it’s it’s a little late in the movie for exposition, I guess, back story, about about these folks. And, they they they’re referred to as the autumn people because they always show up in the autumn. But then immediately mister Dark shows up. They kinda, you know, they just kinda hear something and they realize that it’s him. And so the boy is high. And then there’s this scene between Jason Robards and, what’s the other Jonathan Price. And wow.   I mean, these 2 guys on screen together. I mean, it’s just It’s electric. Yeah. Yeah. It’s And it’s fantastic. And dark, Jonathan Price is really he’s an intense guy. And, he does but he does also a really good job of having an intensity and remaining calm at the same time. 

Todd:  Confident. Yeah. 

Craig:  Mhmm. And he tries to first, he tries to tempt tempt Jim out of hiding. Jim, you know, you can be my partner. I can I can make you a grown up? You can do everything you always wanted to do. You’ll know everything grown ups know. And it doesn’t work. So then, he starts trying to tempt mister Holloway saying, I can make you young again. I can make you a man of 30 in the prime of your youth.   You know, I can and and it’s it’s kind of, an auctioneer kind of thing where he’s ripping these pages out of these books like, here, I’m given the opportunity at 30. Going, going, gone. And he rips the page out of the book and throws it down. 

Todd:  At 31, you’re still young. There’s still plenty of years left. Still time to learn how to swim. Black. He’s really digging the knife in. But my favorite part is when he gets to 40.   40. 40. And here, you’re old.   Yeah. I’m like, wait a minute.   I’m gonna be 40 next year. Don’t tell me this   BS. No. No. Gotcha. 

Craig:  And it’s and it’s funny. And it’s it doesn’t work, but at the same time, you can still kind of see the longing on mister Holloway’s face. Like, he’s you know he’s not gonna take the deal. He knows he’s not gonna take the deal. But the idea of it pains him. It Oh, man. 

Todd:  The idea of turning it down pains him. Right? Uh-huh. And he’s sweating. And at this point in the in the the soundtrack too, we’re getting that very subtly, this heart beating. You know, it’s it’s really well crafted in that way. If you’re listening, you can kind of you can hear it. And then later on, it gets louder and louder. But, this was the scene that scared me so much as a kid that by the time he’s fallen down, mister Dart grabs his hand and says, here’s a taste of death so that you can recognize it when it comes again.   And he squeezes his hand and Crushes it. Crushes it. Yeah. There’s like a split second where it splits open. Kind of this gross but but really impressionable scene. I mean, I remember that as a kid Todd. But just on the PG realm. Right? Yeah.   So he falls down and he finds the kids and he’s going through, are you under a for adventure? Yeah. B for boys? He ends up finding them. And the moment he comes up behind them and grabs them and tears them down, I said to my dad, turn this off. Turn this off. I’m going to bed. We’ll finish this tomorrow. Oh, it is It was too much fun. 

Craig:  It is intense because it feels a little bit hopeless. You know, it almost feels like the dad, mister Holloway, has kinda been defeated. Yeah.   You know,   he’s still around, but he’s been taken down and he’s helpless, at this point. And and the bad guys have the boys and they’re taking them off to the carnival. And it’s scary in the movie. Oh, it’s so scary in the book too, but he’s talking to them and he’s still talking Jim up, but he’s trying to scare Will. At one point, he told Will, we’ve already got your mom. We took her and put her on the carousel and spun her forwards and backwards and forwards and backwards until she totally lost her mind. Then Will happens to see her out the window and he says, oh, maybe it was Jim’s mom. So you know he’s just bullshitting.   Right? But he’s he wants to terrify this kid. And the part one of the parts that scared me the most reading the book, and it just goes by so quickly here, is he he says to Jim, maybe we’ll put Will on the carousel and spin him backwards and backwards and backwards until he’s a little tiny baby and he can be a play thing for our friend here. And it’s this little demented dwarf. And I just think I remember reading that as a teenager just thinking what you know, that’s one of the most nightmarish things you can imagine being a baby but with the mind of an adult and just being the or an adolescent, whatever, and being a play thing for this demented twisted little creature. Still gives me the willies. But anyway, they end up back at, the carnival, and this is where the the big showdown goes down. And I have to say, the climax is a little bit disappointing, a little bit. And it goes by really quickly, and I don’t even know what they originally shot.   Most of the big stuff goes down in the mirror maze, which again, they shot in post. So I don’t know what that replaced.   Mhmm.   But frankly, the ending of the movie is a little bit more satisfying than the end of the book. 

Todd:  Yes. Yes. 

Craig:  But, go ahead and tell him what happened. 

Todd:  Wraps it up. It’s it’s it’s, it’s all you know, and again, if you really try to follow it point by point, it doesn’t actually make a lot of sense. You have to see it as more again poetry and just the theme and idea of what’s happening. But, Will’s dad comes into the carnival and the boys and mister Dark has taken them in and, he’s being welcomed by the dwarf into the mirror maze. He goes into the mirror maze and then we get lots of exposition. And this is where it really hammers you over the head with the themes, you know, as if you didn’t figure it out already. Where mister Dark shows in the different mirrors.   Here the mirror of dreams of beauty. Can Cressette tell you of incredible loves he’d never lived? Over here. See the mirror of riches beyond wishing where mister Tetley is buried.   And this is your mirror. Right. Right. The mirror of regret. And, it plays out the scene in front of him of the drowning in the pool. But at the same time now, it seems like Will is in the mirror maze. Yeah. And so he’s bouncing around.   He’s calling out for his dad. And, then the woman, the gypsy woman is in there too. And as Will’s dad kind of comes to his knees in front of this scene and the woman is is is over his shoulder, like, 

Craig:  he like, she’s finally pointing him Right. 

Todd:  Under her spell, Will screams out, I love you. I love you. And and that’s enough. Yep. That’s it. That’s enough for dad so that he gets the courage to break through and no longer feel that regret. He bursts his hand through the the glass, pulls him out, pulls him to him, and then all the mirrors just shatter everywhere. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And the woman herself who is kind of glassy, kind of icy, mirrory or whatever kind of shatters and and and is taken up. 

Craig:  Yeah. Tom Fury 

Todd:  comes in. Tom Fury comes in. That’s right. Out of nowhere. 

Craig:  Hit the lightning rod 

Todd:  and stabs 

Craig:  her and she explodes. 

Todd:  That’s right. 

Craig:  And then we cut to the the, carousel where mister Dark is standing with Jim and promising him all these things, you know, let’s get on the carousel. And they do step onto it. And, but but Will and and the dad show up and they kinda chase and the dad grabs him and pulls him off. Pretty easily. Pretty easily. And this was a bigger deal in the book because in the book, it really makes a point of Jim wants to get on there and like has to be torn off. And they don’t get him torn off before he’s gone around once. So at the end of the book, he’s a year older Mhmm.   Than than Will. And so he really has made that transition into adolescence, teen years. And so there’s kind of a distance between them at that point. But what happens here in the movie is the storm arrives and, lightning strikes and it strikes the carousel and it malfunctions and starts spinning and spinning and spinning and mister Dark is on it. And there’s really some cool shots where it’s like flashing between the carousel horses and then what would have been carousel horses, you know, live ponies, way back in the day. And pandemonium and the circus, everybody’s running around. It looks like the spell has been broken on the townspeople and they’re kind of running around. While all this is going on, Jim is on the ground and he is apparently dead.   And Will starts to Craig, and his dad very sternly yells at him and says, don’t. This is what they want. They thrive on tears. They thrive on pain. This is how we’ll get Jim back. And they start 

Todd:  dancing. Look, I’m a great whooping Craig. Oh, boy. That’s embarrassing. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. I wanna talk about the end of the book in just a second Todd. It’s even not it’s not even as exciting as that. But mister dark gets spun around so many times that he is just, you know, a mummy basically. The dwarf comes and collects his remains and takes them off. And then the whole carnival gets sucked up in this big cyclone and it’s over. It cuts to the next day.   It’s a beautiful autumn day. Mister Hallowell and the boys are running through the field. They run into town. You know, you get the idea that the dad has kind of recaptured his youth, realized he’s not so young or old after all, that he can have these connections with his son. And it’s it’s a happy ending. And and we get more narration, you know, kind of to wrap it up. And it’s sweet. It’s a little hokey but it’s sweet.   It really reminds me a lot of the, book and the narration in Stand by Me which is a great movie and makes really good effective use of that. It doesn’t bother me. In the book, mister Dark turns himself into a young child to try to trick them into doing something. I don’t know what, or to get him off his back or whatever. But the dad realizes that it’s a trick, and so he grabs young boy mister Dark and hugs him Todd death. Like, not squeezes him to death, but, like, the power of his love Of 

Todd:  his love. Right, kills mister dark. 

Craig:  Oh, my lord. So I I can’t, you know, I can’t blame the movie for being 

Todd:  a little hokey at the end of 

Craig:  the I mean, it’s sweet. You get it. It’s supposed to be nostalgic. It’s supposed to be this statement about the power of goodness and the power of love. It’s just a little 

Todd:  Well, Ed Bradford could get a little sappy at times. Definitely. I and and, you know, it all begs the question of, and again watching it as a kid, I was like, yay. They they won. They finally defeated him. As an adult, you watch and you go, well, this storm is coming anyway. Right. So, like, one way or another, they they were goners in a few hours whether or not they had them.   You’re also asking yourself the question again, if you’re just purely concerned about plot, why is mister Dark really bothering what these 2 kids Right. So intently? Like, what harm what threat do they really possibly hold to what they’re doing? And then of course at the end they get sucked up as we learn happens every time. Right. So, yeah, mister dark some mummy and all that but they’re probably gonna come back again Right. You know, later. Which there’s, again, nothing wrong with that. But, but again, you can’t really see this movie that way. You’ve really gotta watch it like you would read the book, which is, again, it’s a statement.   It’s, it’s it’s literature and it and it’s more concerned about the themes and the characters than it really is about, like, the specifics of the plot having a holes in it. 

Craig:  Yeah. I mean, and it’s it’s sweet and it is something that you could watch with your kids. You know, kids have different levels of sensitivity. You know, it’s some kids are gonna be really scared at parts of it. Some kids are probably gonna think it’s lame. But I think I would watch it with with kids, my niece and nephew or whatever, if they wanted to watch it. It’s just kind of an interesting story. You know, the the the story itself started out as a screenplay.   It was supposed to be Gene Kelly’s first directorial, platform. And Gene Kelly was big time on board, but they couldn’t get the financers. It didn’t happen, so then he turned it into a novel. Then they, somebody bought the rights for a movie and they hired Stephen King to write a screenplay, which he did and it got rejected. Steven Spielberg was in talks to direct it, but that fell through. So eventually, Bradbury adapted it himself. He was really pleased with how it turned out, but the studio wasn’t, and so they changed it. You know, it went through so many incarnations.   Ultimately, while it’s not a perfect movie, I still I just find it a lot of fun. Yes. It’s really sweet. It’s fun to watch. It’s pretty to look at. There’s good stuff going on. I give it a big thumbs up. And Jack Clayton, 

Todd:  the director, had some previous experience with Bradbury. But the the other I think the only one of the only other 2 screenplays that Bradbury had written up to this point. He did like like the beast from 500 Fathoms or something like that. Then before that he also did the adaptation of Moby Dick, 

Craig:  which 

Todd:  was turned in. And that was directed by Jack Clayton as well. So it was pairing those 2 back up together for this movie and I and I think it really works. 

Craig:  Well, and Clayton clearly is a skilled director. You know, he did Moby Dick. He also directed the 1974 version of Great Gatsby, which was a huge success and still holds up today. 

Todd:  The innocence. Have you seen that? No. Right? No. Because that’s an older black and white horror movie that we should watch sometimes that you’re gonna hate until you see   it. Yeah.   Yeah. From 1961. And that’s a creepy kid, you know, creepy child movie as well. That’s really good.   We’ll put it on the list.   I’m with you the same way. I feel I feel just as good about this movie as I did when I was a kid. Even watching it through an adult’s eyes and realizing some of these things. It just I hate to sound like like it’s the perfect movie. No. It’s just really well constructed. It’s very tight. It’s great to watch.   Anybody could watch it with you. I’m really quite shocked that, your partner doesn’t like it because, because who wouldn’t love it? 

Craig:  Yeah. Right. Yeah. He’s probably just being difficult. No. But, yeah. But, I mean, before we sign out of our 100th episode extravaganza 100? I just wanna say, I don’t know if you can tell from the recording quality, but, Todd and I actually got to sit and do this face to face for the first time in so long. 

Todd:  Oh, my gosh. He’s here on a 

Craig:  visit and, he picked this movie. This is something we had talked about doing a long time because it is, one of our favorites for various reasons. And so, buddy, it was nice hanging out with you face to face. It sure was, wasn’t it? I I I hope, it’s not too awfully long before we get to do it again. You know what? 

Todd:  The 200th episode, I’ll be right back. Alright. Perfect. Well, thank you very much for listening as always. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. You can find us on Itunes, on Stitcher, on Google Play, anywhere that your favorite podcasts are posted. You can also find us on Facebook. Like us there.   When you’re part of the conversation, let us know what you thought about this movie. And, of course, we always love your request. So send us those also. Until the next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

The poster art alone is scary enough. There may not be the scariest movie behind it, but it’s high camp 80’s schlock and it takes place during a Halloween party in a possessed (not haunted – know the difference!) house, so it may just be what the doctor ordered for you this season. Give it a listen and see if you agree with our assessment of this cult classic.

Episode 99, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd, and I’m Craig. Craig, we’re on week 2 of our, October horror festival. It is it is Halloween and, today we picked a film that, takes place during Halloween night. It is called Night of the Demons from 1988. Oh, man. This movie. I, remember going to the video store and seeing the poster for this film. It graced the horror section of many a video store for, I I feel like, decades. I feel like well into the nineties. Even though this movie is from 1988, you could see this this poster of, of Angela done up as a demon that just looks like scary as crap. It looks like the kind of thing you shouldn’t post where children are gonna be walking through. It just doesn’t. It it it sells this movie, and it Todd this movie for me. And even though, you know, I spent at least a decade or 2 looking at this poster and thinking, oh, my gosh, it must be the scariest movie in the world, When I, I never saw it until high school, I believe, when I was with some friends on Stupid Movie Night. And, it seemed to be very appropriate for stupid movie night because Mhmm. This movie’s really dumb. Yeah. It it’s got a huge cult following. It really does, and I guess, you know, it was made for, like, about a $1,000,000, and it and it grossed, like, 3,000,000. Didn’t even get a wide theatrical release. It was just released, like, in Detroit and a couple theaters, but especially history has been kind to it, I suppose. I’m not really sure why, except for the fact that this is, like, the quintessential eighties horror film. Like, take every cliche, take every thing about an eighties horror film and distill it Todd, and you basically get this movie. Am am I right about this?

Craig:  Yeah. We were talking about we’re brainstorming movies we wanted to do for the Halloween season because I know that you much like me, this is like my favorite time of the year. It’s when we have free

Todd:  Oh, Oh, please don’t tell me you saw this with Alan.

Craig:  Oh, no. No. In fact, I was I was watching it in my living room on my computer, as I do, and he walked through several times and he was like, what are you watching?

Todd:  And I

Craig:  was like, I know right? You recommended this one and you said that, it had a fond place in your heart. And I, I had seen it too. Like you, I don’t think I really saw it until I was an adult. I don’t know how I got by without seeing it until then, but I had kind of fond memories of it too. And, so I sat down to watch it again and I was watching it and I was like, my Todd this is awful. I, and I, I’m, I’m reluctant. I’m hesitant to say that because I, I, it does have a huge cult following and I know that there are people out there who love this movie and I think I get why. I mean, it’s super campy and silly and it does have, you know, some good effects and stuff like that, but I can only imagine that part of the reason that people like it so much is because of how bad it is. Like, the acting is, oh, my gosh. It’s the worst.

Todd:  Like, every single person in this movie is, like, pulled straight out of community theater.

Craig:  Oh my gosh. It’s so bad. And it’s this group of probably 30 year olds who are supposed to be playing high school kids who just, they’re just a bunch of jerks and they all end up in this house and then it’s they’re just so stupid and and I guess it’s at least kind of fun to watch them all get picked off. And there are 10

Todd:  of them, man. 10.

Craig:  Oh, I know. Way too many. So many. And, like, I wrote down before I even started, I went to IMDB and I wrote down all of their names and all the actors who played them all and I’m like, why are there so many of them? Like I’m never going to be able to keep track of all these people. And so as I’m watching, I’m trying to pay attention to their names and I’m writing down, okay, Roger’s the black guy. Okay, Max is the guy in the doctor’s costume. Like I really need to keep track of these. It doesn’t matter. They’re just a bunch of assholes that get together and get possessed and the end. Yeah.

Todd:  So true. Bunch of assholes. You know, we do have at least one guy who is, who is who’s familiar to us. He’s a familiar asshole. Right?

Craig:  Jay. Yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. He he’s the guy who played

Craig:  Was Kurt Kelly? Todd. Oh, no. You’re talking about Stooge. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. There’s another one that I remember too. Go ahead.

Todd:  Well, you go yeah. Stooge was, was also in Sorority Babes in the slimeball bowl o rama.

Craig:  Yes. Yes. I do remember him, and he was funny. The guy that I was talking about was, the guy that plays Jay, who is, like the jockey jerky one. And he’s played by Lance Fenton and he was one of the mean jocks who got killed in Heathers. So I I remember him. And and, of course, obviously, Linnea Quigley, who plays Suzanne. We’ve seen we probably talked about what, like, 10 movies that she’s been in. Of course. Like, she’s been in a 1000000 horror movies especially in the eighties and she’s fun to watch in this movie. In fact, you know, when people talk about this movie they talk about Angela. Angela is the pretty much kind of the main girl I guess. She’s supposed to be this weird girl who’s hosting this Halloween party, and everybody thinks she’s super weird, but they think that Halloween is right up her alley so they’re gonna go to her party. And she’s played by Emilia Kincaid, and she gets all the glory in this movie. And I think that maybe part of that is because she reprised her role in both of the sequels, so, she was kind of a constant for these movies. But really, I think Linnea Quigley deserves the kudos for this movie. She’s funny and she’s I don’t know if scary is the right word, but she’s the shining star of the movie to me. Angela’s all, she’s great, whatever. You know, she’s got a cool look, she, you know, in her black wedding dress and, you know, when she finally ends up demoning out, you know, that’s pretty cool or whatever. But really, it’s Linea Quigley, Suzanne, who I think, is the star of the show.

Todd:  Yeah. For many reasons. Yeah. Linea Quigley, bless her heart. She her acting’s terrible too. It always is.

Craig:  Oh, sure.

Todd:  Yeah. But I don’t know why. She’s just kind of fun to watch anyway. Maybe because she doesn’t give a crap. Like, she plays she plays all these characters basically the same, just full out gusto, and you just have to admire it. That and the fact that it’s like, you want me to take my top off? Sure. You want me to take my bottoms off? Sure. I mean, this girl has shown her cooch in so many way more horror films than people have exposed their breasts in. I mean, it’s it’s insane. This girl just doesn’t give a rat’s ass about anything, and it’s fantastic to watch.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s kind of admirable. Like, you know, you you you could call it exploitive, but it it’s like she doesn’t care. You know? Like, I hope to God that’s the case, that she really doesn’t care that she’s comfortable with her body, that she’s happy, to do these things. Because if not, then she’s been taken horrible advantage of for sure.

Todd:  But she seems like a smart per I mean, you know, she doesn’t come across as, like, this ditzy person who’s been taken advantage of. I feel like she No. Really knows what she’s getting into. And apparently, she met her husband on this film while she was getting the mold for her fake breasts done. Yeah. What a great story.

Craig:  I know. Romance at its best. Oh my gosh.

Todd:  Alright. Should we dive into this one?

Craig:  I guess so. I I I wanna talk about the first part because I swear to god, the first two minutes of the movie are the best part of the whole movie.

Todd:  Before you even talk about that, let’s talk about the opening music and the animated intro.

Craig:  That that’s what I’m talking about. Oh my god.

Todd:  That’s that’s the best part. Literally. The first 2 minutes.

Craig:  It it opens up with this great synth music and this great animation that’s kind of like, I don’t even, it’s kind of a mix between, the Fantasia night on Bald Mountain. It’s like that and then I feel like that old fashioned y animation where you see the skeletons dancing and stuff, it’s reminiscent of that and it’s fantastic. And it’s just this great synth music over the opening credits with this cool, spooky, very Halloweeny animation, and it’s it’s the best part of the movie.

Todd:  I mean, it’s Todd

Craig:  the ball downhill from there.

Todd:  It’s so hilarious. We’re just gonna let we’re gonna let this synth root music run underneath our until it ends underneath everything else we say, because It’s still tense. We can expose you to all of it. Yeah. And then it opens, the the most, you know it’s weird. This movie has the most bizarre, like, bookend to it. Yeah. It is kinda weird. Like, it’s not the kind of movie you expect to have a bookend, but sure enough, it opens up the way, I don’t know, maybe half of the eighties horror bad eighties horror films that we’ve reviewed open up, which is a bunch of punk kids driving down the street causing trouble in a car. Mhmm. And they run by this guy, this old man who’s, like, you crazy kids. Blah blah blah blah blah. They spill his groceries. Some other kid comes out of the shadows at him. His name is Sal. Anyway, he picks up an apple that he’s got in his groceries, and he picks up the thing of razor blades and makes a comment about how he’s gonna show everybody on Halloween or whatever. And and then you just you don’t see this guy again until the very end. Right. And then it just it just focuses on these people, and we’ve got 10 of them to deal with. We’ve got Oh, jeez. We got the 3 in the car or the 4 in the car. We’ve got, the black guy whose name is Roger. We have Pellet who is driving the car, and then we have Stooge. And we mentioned Stooge. He’s the guy who plays the same boorish, you know, frat guy dude drinking beer. In in this case, I mean, if case you couldn’t telegraph it more clearly, he actually has a pig

Clip:  nose on

Todd:  his face. And this man would not stop calling Helen a bitch through this entire film.

Craig:  Well, it’s not just her. It’s every girl. Like, he’s he’s, like, trying Todd, yes, Helen in the beginning. He’s calling her a bitch. And then later on, he’s trying to hook up with Suzanne, and she takes too long in the bathroom, and he starts calling her a bitch. Like, this guy is just such a dick. Like He is. Why why do they hang out with him?

Todd:  Like, what? There’s nothing charming about him. And that’s the thing. You get this boorish guy, and you just can’t wait for him to go away. But I I have to say, like, I I mean, I don’t know. The just the fact that he was just throwing this word around throughout the movie was really grating on me.

Craig:  Oh, yeah.

Todd:  There, bitch. Get off that dizzy fucking bitch, man. Shut up and drive, bitch. You cannot take this bitch anywhere, man. What? Damn it, bitch. Come on. Dizzy bitch. I realize it’s dated and whatnot, but even for the eighties, this is scuzzy. And the fact that nobody calls him out on it, he he gets no punishment for it, nobody seems to care. I don’t know, man. It just made me really uncomfortable. It was it was really misogynistic, I thought.

Craig:  Oh, totally. And and, like, I feel like we’re supposed to think he’s funny, but it’s not funny. Like like if he if he otherwise had some sort of, you know, really funny personality or if these girls were really his friends and he was just messing with them, even then he would still be a dick, but like you know, if it were more playful, if it were more playful, I guess, maybe, but it’s not. Like it’s just mean. Like he’s just a mean spirited jerk. But whatever. He gets killed, so Yeah. It’s okay.

Todd:  And then we get, we get a phone call between Jay and Judy. Jay is the jock, and Judy is the sweet girl. She’s like the Sandra Dee of the movie who you figure from the beginning is gonna live through it all.

Craig:  She’s dressed as Alice in Wonderland.

Todd:  Basically, they have a conversation on the phone. They’re supposed to go to the school dance, but Jay says, no, let’s go to this party instead. The acting’s terrible in this film.

Craig:  This is the it’s the perfect example of the bad act. I mean, she’s terrible, this this girl who plays Judy.

Clip:  Does this mean I should find another date for the dance? Of course not. Hey. I thought you’d be happy to go to a real party.

Craig:  That’s cool. Dance is for nerds.

Clip:  Oh, okay. Sure. Why not? Who’s giving it? I don’t know if you know her. Her name’s Angela. Angela? No, the only Angela I know is that weird girl in history class.

Todd:  Well, as a matter of fact

Clip:  Shay, you’ve got to be kidding. Angela is such a weirdo. Granny says she’s into witchcraft and all sorts of creepy stuff.

Todd:  Thank you.

Craig:  She’s so Jan Brady. Oh my gosh. Her name’s Kathy Podwell and she gets high billing because she does end up kind of being the final girl, I guess. But

Clip:  Britney says she’s into witchcraft and stuff.

Craig:  Like, I mean, you can’t deny that the acting is terrible, but good lord, the dialogue they’re given. I mean, what

Todd:  are they supposed to do? It’s terrible.

Craig:  Oh my god. And we find out that the party is at Hull House, which has, you know, its own mythology. It’s kind of in their town. It’s the spooky old haunted house. And Another thing that just also makes this movie entirely implausible because eventually they end up going there. And how are you gonna have a straight up house party at this old abandoned place? You know like, are there no police in your town? Right. There’s there’s even a comment made

Todd:  at some point. Oh, that was easy.

Craig:  They didn’t even lock

Clip:  the gate. Yeah. The county used to keep this place locked up all the time. Only the locks kept disappearing. I guess they finally gave up. Well, it doesn’t look like much of a party happening here. Maybe we could still make the dance.

Todd:  Like what? Oh, God. Yeah.

Craig:  But we’re getting we’re getting ahead of ourselves. Sal Sal is, Judy’s ex boyfriend and he wants to hang out with her, I guess, on Halloween or whatever. But, she doesn’t want anything to do with him so he bribes her little brother with a dollar. So first he

Todd:  bribes him with a quarter.

Craig:  And there’s, like, quarters way, man. Yeah. Quarter’s not good enough, so he he gives him the dollar. So he finds out where the party is or whatever. And then we cut Todd,

Todd:  oh,

Craig:  God, it’s a scene in a convenience store, but it’s a direct cut from this guy Sal walking away from Judy’s house to just a bent over picture of Linnea Quigley’s ass and vagina just shaking full screen.

Todd:  Oh my.

Craig:  Bent over. I mean, she’s wearing panties, but she may as well not be because it leaves nothing to the imagination. And it’s just such a funny scene. These goofball convenience store guys are just ogling her as she’s bent over in front of them. And as it turns out, it’s a distraction. Her friend Angela is then going through the convenience store, which is full of people.

Todd:  A lot of people. And she’s grabbing stuff.

Craig:  And she’s got like a sack that looks like it’s made out of a bedsheet. Like it’s this huge sack and she’s just throwing stuff in there, like filling up this huge sack. And, finally she gives Suzanne Lunay Quigley the sign like I’m done, I got it or whatever. Oh, and then probably my favorite line in the movie, Suzanne walks out as she’s walking towards the, the convenience store guys. She goes

Clip:  Do you guys have sour balls?

Todd:  Well, sure we do.

Clip:  Too bad. I bet you don’t get many blow jobs.

Todd:  She walks out.

Craig:  Sour balls.

Todd:  Oh my gosh. The laughs never stop with this film.

Craig:  In the future, I think if I ever watch this again, I think I might just turn it off.

Todd:  That’s that. Like, I’ve seen all I need to see. Well, to be fair, in the movie’s defense, it’s extremely clear by this point that the film isn’t even taking itself seriously.

Craig:  No. No. No.

Todd:  It it’s meant to be I wouldn’t say it’s meant to be a comedy, but it’s meant to have a lot of comedic points in it. Let’s put it that way.

Craig:  It’s tongue in cheek. It’s tongue in cheek. Yeah. And and I get it. And that’s that’s funny. You know? Like, it it’s fun. I’ll go on and on about how terrible it is. Don’t worry I will continue to talk about how terrible it is but in all fairness it’s fun. Just get drunk first. For sure.

Todd:  Don’t watch it alone. My Todd.

Craig:  Don’t sit in your living room on a Saturday afternoon in the middle of the day Laugh. Stone cold sober and watch this movie. You are not going to have the experience that you should have.

Todd:  I had I had to watch it 2 chunks, man. I I really did. After about 45 minutes, I was like, alright. I’m going to bed. I’m watching the rest of this in the morning.

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  Well and then the next scene is, Jay meeting up with Judy, and they’re at the house. And, there’s a funny scene with his mom and his his kid. Her kid brother has this all these goofy lines, and the mom’s like, would you like a fudge log? And she shows him a tray of the most disgusting looking candies. Yeah. It looks like a tray of cat turds. These are just this is just such lowbrow comedy here.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  And Jay tries to kiss Judy as they’re leaving, and Judy’s like, slow down. Slow down. Like, he can’t even kiss her. And this is, know, a theme that we’re gonna get throughout here is Judy’s virginal status and Jay trying to get with her. So anyway, they all leave, and they’re going to go to this house, and I guess, Stooge and the carload of people are going to the same party. As they’re driving down the street, Stooge is messing around, and their car breaks down, has a flat. There’s, Max and Frannie, in another car. Are they with Judy and Jay at this point?

Craig:  Yeah. Judy and Jay picked them up, and

Todd:  That’s right.

Craig:  Max Max, these care they don’t make any they’re they’re completely insignificant. Max is I have written down next to his name, doctor’s costume, and I have written down next to Frannie, Asian girl.

Todd:  Asian

Craig:  girl. And they are a couple. And she doesn’t get much screen time. No. She is stunningly gorgeous.

Todd:  My biggest regret about this film is that she did not have more of a starring role.

Craig:  I wish she did because she seems like a better actress than the other girls, and and she’s she’s really beautiful. And and Max, you know, he doesn’t have much to do either. He doesn’t seem as bad as the rest of them either.

Todd:  But Max is exposition boy.

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s right. I forgot.

Todd:  Max knows everything about this house.

Craig:  That’s right. Because he reads.

Clip:  Hey, you know, I think we’re smelling multiple ghosts here. I’ve read about things like

Todd:  this. There’s something, Max. I never knew you could read.

Clip:  No. Really, Stuage. I’m not kidding. I read all the time.

Todd:  The writing’s fantastic. As soon as they come to this play well, Max and Frannie and, Judy and Jay kind of give these guys the bird as they’re going by, and they end up at the house, and Max gives this long exposition about the history of the house. There’s a brick wall around the house, and it’s like every scene, they’re like, oh, look at this brick wall, and he’s like, well, this brick wall, they say, is over an underground stream that surrounds the house. Like, oh, that’s weird. Yes, they say that the spirits that live in this house can’t cross the running water, and that’s why the stream runs around the house. Oh wow, that’s very interesting. You know, back in 1922, this house I mean, like, he goes on and on. He’s got a common

Craig:  I had I had forgotten that was him. That’s how memorable these characters are. But yeah, he explains that it used to be a funeral parlor, and old Mr. Hull really loved his clientele, like in the carnal way. But at some point, one of the Hulls slaughtered the rest of their family on Halloween night. So this house has this whole sordid history.

Todd:  I love it when they walk into the house and they’re like,

Clip:  somebody fired the maid. Yeah. Somebody did. The whole family maid was killed along with the rest of them. Someone managed to roast her. Great. Barbecue maid. I wonder if she can keep the place clean.

Todd:  Oh, man.

Craig:  And so basically, they all just show up. Yeah. And and Sal pops out of a coffin and scares Jay and makes him mad, but eventually, they’re just all there. They get the party started.

Todd:  They have this dumbass house party that we’ve seen in so many of these movies, like spookies, where suddenly they break out like like these teenagers break out like trades of hors d’oeuvres, things like that that they can lay it out on the table. They’ve, like, taken time to decorate the walls with, like, skeletons and things like that. And they’re just, like, randomly dancing and hanging out corners, and Judy’s fretting about this lighter, which is, like, the dumb the dumbest scene ever, when she’s trying to light a candle or something, and then Angela comes up to her and is, like, don’t leave that lighter lingering around. You don’t want the spirits to get it.

Craig:  That’s what she says. And then that, like, that really bothers Judy. Like,

Todd:  oh, no. There’s, like, a 5 minute seed of her deciding whether or not she’s gonna leave the light or she’s gonna put it in her pocket. She ends up, like, making a bold choice and putting it in

Craig:  her pocket. Yeah. And and Suzanne Quigley is dancing sexy, and all the boys are ogling her. And then somebody pulls out a strobe light and like you would think that it was the coolest thing that had ever happened. Like, oh my Todd, a strobe light. This party is epic. But then then the music stops. They think the batteries went dead. Of course, we know that it’s probably the demons at work but since the music has Todd, Angela’s like, Hey, let’s have a seance. And they’re like, I don’t know, don’t you think that’s kind of risky? But then one of them I think it’s Frannie is like, Well, let’s have a past life seance. Like that. Is that a thing?

Todd:  Purpose of my life. They’re like, oh. And then Angela, I think, explains what it is. Right? Yeah. They have to get they have

Craig:  to get a mirror, and they have to sit around the mirror and look in it, and one person is supposed Todd, like, stand right in front of it and they’re supposed to stare at it until it fogs over black and then it will clear up and show what she looks like in a previous life. And of course, they find a great big huge mirror and and start to do this and that’s just when all hell breaks loose.

Todd:  Some demon like, we get a demon face in the mirror, and everybody’s conveniently turned away looking at something except for Helen, who sees it and is is totally spooked. And Raj is spooked too for some reason. We don’t really understand. He saw something when he was off, and, they hear sounds from the basement. And and we get that, like, first person perspective thing like Amityville Horror

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Or or Evil Dead, where this demon, like, flies up through the basement and then possesses Suzanne. We see it. Yep. And Raj decides he’s going to leave. My daddy was a preacher. And I know better than Todd be here fooling with this stuff. It’s which comes up again later. I don’t understand. Actually, it’s kind of offensive, really. It’s Yeah. Yeah. Characters. Just borderline offensive. Anyway, let’s see. At some point, Angela explains the difference between the house being haunted versus the house being possessed. Apparently, if a house is haunted, it means ghosts live there. If a house is possessed, it means a demon lives there.

Craig:  It’s really important for us to know that moving forward.

Todd:  And then, right, and then, of course, the moment we’re all waiting for, everybody sort of splits up and goes their own way. Yep. Jay decides he wants to go off to a corner with Judy, Sal runs off somewhere. I don’t know what Stew just Todd, drinking and doing something blah blah blah. Anyway, they all sort of split up, and Rog and Helen decide they’re going to leave. I mean, these people keep saying they’re going to leave, and they never actually leave.

Craig:  Well, I I did at least appreciate that that Roger and Helen were, like, no. Seriously, we’re leaving. And they try. Like, they they legit try to leave. But when they go outside, the whole house, as you mentioned before, is surrounded by this great big brick wall. And, when they go outside they try to find the gate, but apparently the gate has disappeared. So they’re all stuck in there. But I, you know, Roger as a character is played on, you know, it’s a very fine line between offensive black stereotype, but I at least appreciated that he was the only one who really throughout the whole movie is smart enough to be like, seriously, we need to get the freak out of here. Yeah. Like, please, let’s leave. He tries. Todd doesn’t work, but tries.

Todd:  And Judy decides to run off, and Raj gets spooked, and he runs into a car and decides to just hold himself up in a car. And Suzanne kisses Angela for some odd reason, and that transfers or multiplies, I guess, the demon into Angela as well. So now we know that both Angela and Suzanne are possessed. Max goes into exposition mode again.

Craig:  Yeah. And not only is it a murder house, but it also sits on ancient evil Indian land.

Todd:  That’s right.

Clip:  A young brave got lost and settled here with his family by mistake. Anyway, they found him 3 weeks later. Sitting under a teepee he made out of his squaws intestines and chewing on the leg of his papoose.

Todd:  Oh, man.

Craig:  It’s like I

Todd:  know. Oh, yeah. It you know what? Now that we’re talking about it, this is so like, so much of this is similar to the Amityville.

Craig:  It is. Well, I mean, it’s it’s it’s cut and paste. I mean, you know It’s

Todd:  so hilarious.

Craig:  It’s a 1000000 movies. We’ve Yeah. We’ve seen it a 1000000 time. And and it can be done well, you know, like poltergeist. It’s it’s pretty much the exact same thing, but that’s a good movie. And Oh, gosh.

Todd:  So, let’s see. Then Jay and Judy are making out, and, apparently, Judy’s allowing him to kiss her this time, but, they won’t she won’t go any further. And this is when Jay becomes total dick and is like, well, then fine. I thought this was what you wanted. And so he leaves Judy. And that’s the thing about the people in this house is they get left or locked in places or whatnot, and then they just totally just sit there, and they’re they’re fine.

Craig:  Yeah. Meanwhile, Suzanne and Stooge have gone Todd the bathroom room together, and I I guess he thought that he was gonna get lucky in the bathroom, but, she leaves him outside, and she’s, like, looking in the mirror, and her face goes all demony. You know, it’s okay, we get it, they’re possessed. It’s like, now it’s time for some special effects. And then she disappears. And then, probably another one of the most iconic parts of this movie, Angela does a sexy dance for Sal.

Todd:  I called it an interpretive dance.

Craig:  I mean,

Todd:  it killed a good 5 minutes of the movie at least. Todd Yeah. She got credit in the film for being the

Craig:  choreographer. She did? Angela did? The the actress?

Todd:  The actress. Yeah. Mimi Oh, well. As a matter of fact, if you look up, her profile, you’ll see that she’s been mostly a dancer for a lot of things. So it’s nice to see that she was able to take some of her other talents and incorporate them into this film as

Craig:  well. Yeah. I’m sure that she’s a lovely dancer, and this, is the 80s and things were different in the 80s for this dance. I swear to Todd. Oh my God. It’s so funny. And I feel like she must okay. You know, I have to give her artistic credit. I’m I’m sure that she came up with most of this dance by herself, but I can just imagine the director off camera saying like, that’s really Todd, but could you pull your skirt up more?

Todd:  That’s right. I can’t see your underwear. There you go. That’s it. Now, wriggle that around

Craig:  for a while while

Todd:  I’m zoom in.

Craig:  Head. Like, all the way up over get all the way up over your head.

Todd:  Good. Good. Got it. It’s Sal who is like Sal’s like the Fonz in this film, and he’s just standing there just watching it the whole time, and Stooge comes in as well. I think Sal just decides he’s

Craig:  gonna leave. Yeah. He it’s too weird

Todd:  for him. And Stooge comes in, he and Angela do a little dance.

Clip:  You know, Stooge, I never realized how sexy you are.

Todd:  You kiss me. Oh. And bites his tongue off. And this is the thing about this movie too. Like, alright. See, up until this point, like, nothing has really happened. Mhmm. Stuff has happened, but it’s just people getting freaked out. We know 2 people are possessed, but nobody’s died. We’re we’re not really to me, anyway, there’s, like, no tension. And finally, his tongue gets bit off, and she smiles at him, and she’s all demon y now, and she’s got spits his tongue out, and there’s blood hanging from his mouth, and then they just cut away.

Craig:  Yeah. And and that happens a lot. Yeah. And I I I guess maybe that’s because there are so many people like we have to keep up with them, I guess. But it is. It’s these abrupt cuts away from scenes into other scenes. But this one cuts to Sal finding Suzanne. She’s messing with her lipstick, but she’s, like, put it all over her face.

Todd:  Yeah. Suzanne’s theme is that she’s always looking at her face and constantly super vain and doing her makeup.

Craig:  Right. Right. So she talks to him, and she’s like, doesn’t my makeup look okay or something? I don’t know. And, he leaves, but as soon as he leaves, it’s like she sits there for a second and, like, something’s going through her mind, like, I have an idea, and then

Todd:  she opens

Craig:  up her shirt and I know that you have been dying to describe this scene. Oh my gosh. Take the stage, my friend.

Todd:  Yeah. She, has got her lipstick, which she has already painted all over her face, and she slowly brings it down her chest and draws this mark down then under her left boob and then circling around, slowly closing out her nipple, and then just pushes the lipstick right into her nipple where it disappears into her breast. She takes her way hand away, there’s no lipstick, and then cut away.

Craig:  This is the scene that everybody talks about. If you talk about this movie, everybody remembers this scene. And it’s weird and, like, it’s so apropos of nothing like nothing else ever happened you know like that’s just it she just sticks her whole lipstick tube in her boob. Now what I will say about this is whoever did this effect is talented. It’s fantastic. It looks great.

Todd:  It looks like There has never been a more realistic press of anything into somebody’s nipple where it completely disappears as this film. And we know that there’s no CGI involved. Wow. It’s amazing.

Craig:  No. It it really does. I mean, it looks pretty real. Her prosthetic looks like real boobs or, I mean, I haven’t seen that many except for on TV, but Well it looks real.

Todd:  It It really looks like Lania Quigley’s fake boobs.

Craig:  Yeah. Right. And, like, not only does she poke it in there, but then she like, she sticks it. Like she’s driving her finger up in there, like really getting it up in there. And then she pulls it out and like you can’t see a seam or a hole. Nothing. Like, it it Todd job, fake boob guy. Because that looked great.

Todd:  Yeah. For no good reason. There’s no payoff to this scene. That’s what makes this so odd. It’s the weirdest thing you’ve ever seen, and it’s not like she becomes the lipstick monster or, like she shoots lipstick out of her boobs from then on. Nothing happens except for this bizarre scene completely by herself. Like, nobody else even observes it. It doesn’t even have the benefit of being something creepy for somebody else to see. Right. It’s like this demon by itself decides, I don’t know. We got a few minutes. Let’s get rid of this lipstick.

Craig:  Oh, gosh. And it’s so funny because I remembered there being a payoff, and there’s not. Now I I’ve seen the remake. Have you seen the 2009 remake?

Todd:  Oh, gosh. No. You have.

Craig:  I have seen it. And and maybe it’s in the remake because I remembered the lipstick later coming out of her mouth, like she pulls it out of her mouth. That does not happen in this movie. Oh. But I feel like in the remake, it must. And I have to say and this will probably be an unpopular statement but, I think that really the remake is maybe better than this. I don’t know. I think in the remake they just took themselves a little bit more seriously. They had a bigger budget for, the effects and stuff. I mean, it stars the naked chick from American Pie and Eddie Furlong. So if that tells you anything about quality.

Todd:  That’s the pinnacle of quality right there. Oh geez, that’s terrible.

Craig:  And I’ve only seen it once, so maybe my maybe I am in no place to make a statement like that. But anyway, if you, and the only reason I saw it, I didn’t even know there was a remake, and I was just flipping through the channels one day on TV and it happened to be on, so I sat and watched it. It’s worth a watch if you haven’t seen it, and and if you’re a fan

Todd:  of this movie. I’m really curious because, yeah, after seeing this one again, I’d love to see a modern take on it for sure.

Craig:  It’s it’s worth taking a look at. But at this point, you know, gosh, how specific do we wanna be? At this point, everybody else will have 1 by 1, gets possessed. Jay, who is, you know, all sexually frustrated because Judy wouldn’t have sex with him, finds Suzanne and they fuck for a second until she pokes his eyeballs out. And then Frannie and Max also, they find a coffin.

Clip:  You know, I’ve never made it in a coffin before. Me

Todd:  neither. And then and

Craig:  then when we’re again, you know, I hate to be misogynistic, but we we get to see a lot of these girls with their tops off, and Frannie beats them all. She looks fantastic. But they end up, Stooge ends up killing them. He breaks her neck and then, like, I guess he he he like slams the coffin down and slams it on Max’s arm so many times that the arm falls off, which I guess is enough to kill Max because he’s Todd, and and later shows up possessed. That’s pretty much it. So then we’ve got, like, Roger and Sal who are the only 2 left. For the next 20 minutes, Judy runs around screaming

Todd:  while she’s being

Craig:  while she’s being chased Yeah. And Roger is kind of running around, not screaming as much, but getting scared. And they just kinda keep running into the the rest of the people in demon Craig. And, it’s kinda till the end.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s just one of those deals. They run into them, ah, and they run off, and then they’re quiet again. Throughout this whole movie, nobody here it’s not that big of a house, but apparently Todd hears what’s going on in the other rooms. Everybody’s super separated. All they end up in a rooftop. You know, and the thing is, like, they can’t get out, but then they do get out, but then Angela scares them back in. It becomes a sort of Judy and Raj thing after a while.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. And for some reason I was getting, shades of Night of the Living Dead here. I guess maybe just because it was a white chicken and black dude. I don’t know. But that’s kinda what it felt like. It felt like the the 2 folks from Night of the Living Dead you know what I’m talking about?

Todd:  Yeah. I know exactly what you mean.

Craig:  Yep. And that’s that’s and and Roger really ends up kind of being the hero of the story. I mean, Judy, you know, she sticks around, but she just runs around screaming like a banshee. Except for one part where they end up in a crematorium. This was kind of hilarious to me. They end up in this crematorium. Yeah, they’re locked in and the demons are like beating down the door and Judy’s like, We need a weapon. We need a weapon. Wait a second, the pipe. And she goes to pull the pipe out of the oven and she pulls it out, and then gas starts coming out. It’s hilarious to me that this place has been abandoned for a 100 years, and they’re still paying their gas bill apparently.

Todd:  It’s the gas they want. And and then she gets to fill the room up with gas while she’s trying to light this lighter, and there’s all this supposed tension where the demons are telepathically, I guess, pulling the pins out of the door so they can break the door down while she cannot light a lighter to save her life. And I’m thinking, by the time she lights this lighter, this room is going to explode.

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Todd:  But this is a moment where Todd does, it actually doesn’t make any sense because Judy completely picks up. And while she’s been, the not hero through this thing, suddenly gets a mind of her own and decides to take some initiative, and Raj, on the other hand, does absolutely nothing to help her. Right. He’s cowering in the corner. He’s, like, he’s, like, freaking runs off and leaves her at times. Like, here’s the problem with Raj. You wanna like this you wanna like this character. You wanna at least say, well, here’s something redeeming, the black guy that lives to the end. Right. But like we said, he’s written a little stereotypical, and then he’s alternately extremely helpful, and he’s willing to linger around and help her out, like, when she’s dangling from the ledge, and he’s encouraging her. Come on, Judy. Come on, Judy. In the face of all this, you know, stuff coming their way. Yet when they’re locked in a room relatively safe trying to find a way out, he’s got nothing. It’s so uneven. It’s so He wants to pray. Oh my god.

Clip:  We can’t wait, Rog. We gotta try. There’s no other way out.

Todd:  1st, let’s pray. My daddy, he told me how to pray real good. Oh my god.

Craig:  Yeah. It’s it’s pretty bad. I mean, on the one hand, I kind of appreciate Todd, I can’t even believe I’m gonna say this word, the realism of it. Because if it were me, screw Judy. Like, I’m getting out of here. And he does that a couple of times. Ultimately, he’s heroic. But this scene, you know, it’s so stupid. You’re absolutely right. We hear this gas running running running and she’s flicking this BIC and like all it would take would be a frickin’ spark. It’s not like it would actually need Todd light for this room filled with gas. But it is kind of fun when she actually gets it lit and then it’s a flamethrower and she cooks, Angela and Stooge. And something that we haven’t really talked about and it’s really evident, especially after they’ve been burned, the makeup effects are really fun in the movie. They’re really good. Well, they’re alternately good and lazy. Like, some of them get the full demon treatment and then some of them just kind of get the white face zombie treatment. It’s weird, but

Todd:  I don’t think the makeup effects ever get as good as the poster.

Craig:  No. I I agree. I agree. But they are fun. I mean, just, you know, from a visual perspective, it’s it’s fun to look at. It’s it’s it’s kind of the payoff that you get for sitting through this terrible movie. Okay, so she flamethrows the bad guys and then they’re running around the house but they’re locked in and then all of their friends who are demons now surround them in the living room and Roger, as I said before, is like screw you Judy and he jumps out the window, but they’re on the 1st floor so he’s fine. And she follows him, and they run to the wall. And there’s no gate, so they have to go over it. And apparently, there’s barbed wire that runs along the top of it, but in this particular section it has fallen down. So Roger climbs the barbed wire and his his hands are getting all cut up, and he gets up to the Todd. And I would say this is what, like a 20 foot wall?

Todd:  It’s huge. And

Craig:  he gets up there and he’s like laying on the top of it and he’s like, come on, climb up. I’ll get your hand. And she starts climbing up and she gets about halfway and then the demons come out and like they get a Todd of her legs and, Roger somehow falls off onto the other side where he would be safe, and it’s like he has a moral dilemma. Like, you know, what am I going to do? And we think that it’s the end for Judy, but no, somehow, somehow, somehow Roger gets back on top from the other side.

Todd:  It’s just a no sense. A shot of him on the ground on the other side of this 20 foot wall, a shot of Judy screaming, and then suddenly, it’s like the exact same shot of the back on top of the wall. Give me your hand. Give me your hand. You’re like, what? How did he get back up there?

Craig:  Yeah. It doesn’t make any sense at all, but she he does. He grabs her hand and and pulls her up, which also doesn’t make any sense. There’s, like, 8 people, like, pulling at her. Like, how it doesn’t make any sense, but whatever. And so he gets her over, and they fall onto the other side. And the demons all melt into smoke, and the original demon head that we saw in the mirror appears above the wall and, like, shrieks, but then it disappears and the sun comes up, and then we get the second half of our our bookend.

Todd:  And they walk off into the sunset, and you think that’s the end, but they walk by that old man’s house, and that man shakes his fist at them. All you crazy kids, you’ve been out so late, probably banging each other, blah blah blah, goes inside and sits down at this table. And you’re like, what is going on? Why is this not the end of the movie? And this old woman, his wife comes up and, oh, I served you breakfast, dear. And she hands him something, and he sits down and starts Todd eat. He’s like, oh, this apple pie is real good.

Clip:  There weren’t as many trick or treaters last night, not like the good old days. I had to do something with all those leftover apples. I still can’t understand why you buy so many.

Todd:  Of course, those are the ones that he put razor blades in, and this is another cool effect. Really cool. Oh, yeah. Suddenly the razor blades basically come out of his throat, cut him up, and he falls, slumps forward. And she calmly comes over, looks, pats him on the head, gives him a kiss. As his dad says

Clip:  Happy Halloween, dear.

Todd:  Sips her tea.

Craig:  Oh, I think it’s funny. I think it’s it’s a funny tongue in cheek thing. It it kinda reminds me of, the the end caps on, like, Creepshow or something like that. Like Totally. It’s it’s very tongue in cheek. It it’s it’s it’s a wink. You know? It’s a wink to the audience. Like, we know this was stupid.

Todd:  Here’s a little something extra for you.

Craig:  Oh, man. You know, I don’t know. This I don’t I don’t even know what to say about this movie. What I will say about it is that I’m glad to have seen it. You know I feel like I wouldn’t have any kind I like to consider myself kind of a horror buff and I don’t think that I could claim that title having not seen this movie. You know, it’s very much in the consciousness of horror fans and the poster is iconic, Angela as a character is semi iconic. So I’m glad to have seen it. Is it a great movie? No.

Todd:  Not at all.

Craig:  Absolutely not. But if you are into these and we are, you know, we talk about these movies, we make fun of them, but we love them. We have a special place in our hearts for these bad 80s movies. So if you’re like that, you know, if you appreciate these for what they are, then you’re going to appreciate this movie. I don’t know. You know? What’s the other one that Linnea Quigley was in that we liked so much? Was it Return of the Living Dead?

Todd:  Yeah. Return of the Living well, you didn’t like that one so much. I think, was it slime bubble a rama? Or did

Craig:  you Well, I don’t know. In retrospect in retrospect, I do like those movies and I think that maybe even I enjoy them more than this movie. But they’re in the same vein. I don’t know. You know, it is what it is and it has a place and I can appreciate it for what it is. It’s not great, but whatever. It was fun. It wasn’t a waste of time.

Todd:  We’re gonna be talking about these guys who made this again, like Kevin Tenney who directed this. He did Witchboard. He wrote and directed it. We’re gonna wanna do that one because I remember that one as being pretty interesting.

Craig:  I loved that movie when I was a kid. That was one of those movies that, my parents should not have let me watch when when I was a little kid, but they did. And, oh, I loved it. I

Clip:  loved it.

Craig:  So, you know, we definitely have to do that at some point.

Todd:  And I have to say, I think, you know, looking at it now, the movie’s really boring if you don’t have somebody to goof on it with. It’s Yep. It’s just so much. There’s no payoff at anything spooky that happens. It’s just a bunch of people creeping around the house. Just when something scary happens, it cuts away to 2 people talking again about something else in some other part of the house. And then, you know, it’s just this little chase, but in a sense, it it you can’t really mount any suspense because you never get a sense of place in this house. You never get an idea of what’s where and who’s where. And anytime somebody’s in peril, then they’re conveniently okay for another few minutes, you know, while they prowl around in their quiet corner.

Craig:  So you And you don’t care about any of the characters either.

Todd:  Of course.

Craig:  So there’s there’s no investment.

Todd:  There were 10 of them. It’s hard to. Right?

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  So but, yeah, I think, again, as a fun, goofy eighties movie that takes it’s just a blender of a film. It takes all these tropes and mashes them together and is super obvious about it and even winks at the audience about it and knows that it’s goofy and doesn’t take itself seriously. Yeah. Yeah. It’s entertaining. It’s entertaining. I’d be interested in seeing the remake. That would be kinda fun.

Craig:  Did you see the the sequels? Oh, there’s 2 sequels. Yeah. Did you? No. They came

Todd:  considerably later. I mean, I think the second one has, Mimi Kinkade in it. She reprises her role. Yeah. She in both.

Craig:  She in both, she does. Yeah.

Todd:  It’s like the only thing she’s done outside of dancing. Mhmm. Uh-huh. But and I think Quigley has a brief role in the second one if if I if I remember if I see that correctly. But, no. I’d I’d be interested in seeing the sequels as well. That would be kind of interesting. But As a horror, as a scholar of horror

Craig:  films. Yeah. As a scholarly exercise.

Todd:  I I just wish Jill Teresheeta reprise her role in one of these.

Craig:  I know. Right? I’d love

Todd:  to see her anymore. She’s done almost nothing. She was, like, in sleepaway camp 3, couple of, like, TV movies or something. She did nothing. She she did something in 2017, and before that, her last thing was 1990. She’s got, like, 8 credits as an actress and, like, 4 credits as a stunt person. So, I don’t know.

Craig:  I don’t know. She’s real pretty.

Todd:  Yeah. Such a shame. Totally wasted in this film. Well, anyway, it was fun to laugh about. It’s fun to talk about. Yeah. What a great Halloween movie. Yeah.

Craig:  Definitely. Definitely.

Todd:  Thanks again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. You can find us on iTunes. You can find us on Google Play. You can find us on our website, Stitcher. Wherever you find podcasts, we’re probably there. Also like us on Facebook. We have a page there where we can discuss things all Halloween season. We could talk about Halloween movies. We could talk about Halloween things, whatever you want. We love interacting with both of our fans. Just jump on over to that page. We’ve got 3 more episodes including our 100th episode coming up this month, so it’s a very special October. Until next time. I’m Todd and I’m Craig with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Terrible acting, nonsensical plot, blatant ripoffs of much better films, and some brother-on-sister action are just a few of the things that makes this the must-watch film of the Halloween season. There’s no better film to kick off our 2017 Halloween series. Enjoy!

Episode 98, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  Today’s film Craig picked out for us, it is the 1982 film the Amityville Horror 2: The Possession. This is the sequel to the Amityville Horror one from way back in 1970. I want to say 74, but it might actually be 78. And I remember seeing that film. I have seen that film that was a popular film at its time, even though it’s an incredibly boring. 

Craig:  That’s it’s so boring. And it’s just unfortunate because James Brolin is in it and he’s totally hot and there’s other good actors in it and it’s well acted, but it’s just boring. 

Todd:  It’s a top shelf movie. It is a top shelf movie with all of the budget and acting and direct everything behind. Even Lalo Schifrin does the soundtrack, who also did the soundtrack to this film, which I was pleasantly surprised to see. And Lalo Schiffrin does amazing soundtracks. He’s the guy behind, like, for example, the Mission Impossible theme song. He’s the only thing that carries forward into this movie. This movie seemed to be a much later attempt to capitalize on the Amityville mania, I guess, that was sweeping the nation at that time. And this movie is nothing if not a wild, crazy ride. 

Craig:  Totally. I couldn’t believe. Okay, so the whole reason that I picked this movie is because I saw an article on Bloodydisgusting.com about how Andyville two is a way better movie than Bill one. And I read the article and I was like, how have I not seen this movie? I watch as much horror as I can. And even just when we were adolescents going to the video store, these Amityville movies would pop up on the video store shelves all the time. Like every couple of years there would be a new one and I would rent them. But I guess in 82 I was only three, so I guess it was a little too early. And I watched a bunch of those sequels.   I don’t remember much about them. There was one about a haunted clock, and there was one about a haunted doll house, and I remember enjoying them. They were really schlocky and silly and stupid, but kind of fun to watch. But somehow I never got around to watching this one. And it is a sequel, but it could very easily stand alone. You don’t have to have seen the first movie to appreciate or enjoy this movie. Really, the only connection that it has to the first movie is that it takes place in the same house, and that’s historically true. Whatever this house in Amityville weird shit went down there, and a couple of weird things happened there.   And this is one of the only sequels that actually somewhat kind of tells a story of something that actually happened. This is based on the Defeo murders, wherein the eldest son of a family murdered his entire family in one night in their beds when they were sleeping. And the movie is loosely based on that. They changed some things. They deleted one sibling. And as the title would suggest, this is a possession movie. And there was never any suggestion or claim by the actual defeo murderer that there was anything with possession or voices or anything of that nature. But other than that, the events of the movie are actually based in reality.   And it’s pretty wild. 

Todd:  I would say, craig, that not only is this a possession movie, but this is like an everything. Well, first of all, this era, exorcist was big, right? Yeah, Amityville was big. So we got the haunted house aspect in there. We have the Exorcist aspect in there, top to bottom, especially in the second half of the movie. Then we even have some straight out evil dead references in here. Really bizarre family situations I think we’re going to get into later. It seems like Tommy Lee Wallace, who is the writer of this film, who. It’s interesting, we just finished reviewing it, the miniseries, and Tommy Lee Wallace was the writer director of those.   This was his very first screenplay. But then he went on to write and direct Halloween three, which we’ve done in the past. Then did fright night part two, which I haven’t seen. So he has kind of an interesting horror history. Cannot say that this is his best work ever. It’s clear. Maybe this is his very first screenplay, but I was just dying through this movie. 

Craig:  It’s kind of whackadoodle, but it’s so fun. The first half of the movie is pretty much the conjuring, and then the second half of the movie is the exorcist. And the first part of the movie was so fast paced, I was taking notes. It’s not a lot of fun to take notes when you’re watching these movies. But I had to keep pausing because there were so many things that I wanted to write down because things just kept happening, happening. And then we got to, I don’t know, about the midway, a little bit past the midway point of the movie, and it reached what I thought was going to be the climax of the movie. And I’m like, wait, what are they going to do with the last 45 minutes? And then it was like a whole different movie for the last 45 minutes. And that could be a bad thing.   And to be fair, even though I really did enjoy watching this movie, it’s so fast paced for the first half. And then it slows down a little bit. And I was a little bit disappointed with that. But then I thought that the ending was so good that I got over it. Like, okay, all right. If we had to sit through that little kind of slow part to get to the end, I’m cool with it. 

Todd:  Yeah, I enjoyed this movie because it was so bad. This is one of those so bad that it’s good movies. Like, this is the movie you want to sit down and watch with your. This is the kind of movie that I wish you and I were in the same room watching. Because I think we would have had so much fun with this film. It starts out, and again, like I said, you’ve got this Lalo Schiffrin score. And I think he just pulls it straight from the first film, actually, with those creepy children voices kind of singing in the beginning. Actually, I think he was either nominated or maybe even got an Academy Award, some kind of award for his score in the original Amityville horror movie.   It’s a little iconic. And this family is pulling into this new house. And we know this house because it’s on the COVID of the video sleeve. But it’s also the house from the first movie. It’s a house that looks almost like a barn. And it has these two big windows in the top floor. And I always felt like it looked like eyes. 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, absolutely. 

Todd:  Right. It kind of has that look. And what’s hilarious about it is every time you see the outside of this house, the camera goes out of its way to make it seem sinister. And even the delivery man who’s delivering the packages to this house stops and turns around and stares up at the windows of this house. And we immediately get introduced to this family. So we’ll give you the quick rundown. There’s Anthony, who is the father. And Anthony is played by a guy who, Bert young, who, you know him when you see him.   He’s been in everything. He’s a pretty famous character actor. He always plays these rough kind of guys. And he’s Paulie from. Exactly. Exactly. All the rocky movies. Right.   His wife is Dolores. And she’s this kind of submissive wife, I guess you could say, who’s kind of trying to keep the family together. Mark and Beth are the two little boys and girls who we don’t really see enough of, honestly, in this movie. And then Sonny, who’s the older brother and there’s a big distance between Sonny and Trish, who are the older brother and older sister. And then Mark and Beth are the younger girl and boy. And I don’t know, Mark and Beth are probably like, what, eight and nine. 

Craig:  If not younger, I guess. Not that it matters. I have the little girl’s name written down as Jan. Not that it matters at all. 

Todd:  Actually, you might be right about that. 

Craig:  It doesn’t matter. The little ones, there’s two little ones who are played by real life brother and sister Erica and Brent Katz. And like you said. Yeah, we don’t really get to see enough of them. I kind of wish we would see more of them, but, yeah, then the older brother and sister, they’re kind of the important ones. Sonny is played by Jack Magner and Trish, Patricia is played by Diane Franklin, who. Diane Franklin was super familiar to me, and I looked through her IMDb page, and she really wasn’t in a whole lot. So I don’t know why she was so familiar.   It remains a mystery to me why. 

Todd:  I know why she looks so much like Jennifer Connolly is why she looks so does. Yep, yep, yep. And you’re right. I felt the same way. Well, she was in a couple of big ones of the era anyway. Better off dead. 

Craig:  Yeah, better off dead. She was in that. And she was in a cheesy movie from the 80s that I remember how I got into college, which I doubt anybody else remembers, but I always enjoyed it. 

Todd:  But anyway, last american virgin, she was in that one. She was in terror vision, which is one we have to do sometime. And she even had a brief cameo role in Bill and Ted’s excellent adventure. She was. 

Craig:  Yeah, that’s right. 

Todd:  A princess in there. So she kind of skipped around through movies in the lot of tv be. But you’re right, she looks so much like Jennifer Connolly that she’s super familiar. 

Craig:  True. 

Todd:  So they’re older. They’re like considerably older, I would say, like teenagers, basically. And they look even older than that. 

Craig:  Quite. 

Todd:  But. And that’s a good thing as we go on. 

Craig:  And it’s obvious from the beginning that there’s clearly tension in this family. They pull up, they’re moving in the very first day into this new house. And right off the bat, Anthony, the dad, is giving the oldest son crap. So I put the pedal to the woo. 

Todd:  He should have seen. It was fantastic. 

Craig:  I left a guy like mine. 

Todd:  Where the hell were you? I told you to back up your mother. She knows the way. Don’t be smart, boy. You’re not too big for a whipping. Yeah, I know. You proved that to me. 

Craig:  Okay? 

Todd:  You know, you’re pushing it. You’re right on the edge. 

Craig:  Dad, I just stopped at the corner for a pack of cigarettes. 

Todd:  Stop your whining. You’re going to be a man by smoking cigarettes now. You’re growing little fuzz over here. Learn how to take some orders. You hear me? 

Craig:  I didn’t hear you. Yes, sir. And one of the things that I liked about the movie is that the second they get in this house, things start to go wrong. And while I really appreciated that the whole time, I’m thinking the first five minutes that they’re in there, crazy crap starts happening. I’m like, just get out. Clearly there’s something wrong with this house. They go in, and they find that all the windows are nailed down. The mom turns on the faucet in the kitchen, and blood comes out.   And it’s clearly blood. And she’s terrified at first, but then it clears up, and she’s like, oh, okay, never mind. I get it. It’s an old house. Maybe some rusty water would come out. But that’s not rusty water. That is blood for sure. Take a hint.   Take a hint. 

Todd:  And my favorite part is when the mother is unpacking in the basement, and she goes down there, and one of the moving guys comes down with her. It’s like, where do you want this? And she’s like, oh, these are my husband’s guns. Why don’t you throw them in the closet? So he walks in his closet in the basement. As he sets down the box, it kind of bangs the wall and opens up what’s essentially the little flap in the wall, like a secret passage. He says, oh, you know, you got another room back here. She’s like, oh, really? And so he gets down on his hands and knees, and he crawls back in there, and there’s just water, like, dripping down in here at a rate that would be flooding the basement. And this whole other quote unquote room we see later is more like a whole other basement in this house. It has these brick or stone pillars in there.   Looks like a crypt. This guy’s like, you got some serious problems in here, lady. And bugs are falling on him, and it’s super wet. And he comes out and he’s just drenched. And he’s kind of like, you might want to get that looked into. And she’s like, yeah, I guess so. That’s it? Yeah. 

Craig:  Oh, God, it’s so funny. I referred to it in my notes as the evil poop room, because it’s just this room that’s just full of flies and poop and this water constantly running in that she finds out about. And then she’s like, oh, whatever, I guess we’ll worry about it later. And the evil poop room ends up being pretty much the source of all their problems. Because after that repair man, or whoever he is, leaves, we get a pov shot. And then we get these kind of, throughout the movie, of this evil spirit or demon or whatever it’s supposed to be. We get its point of view coming out of the room and coming up behind her. And then a cold wind blows and she’s scared to death.   And then Sonny, the oldest son, shows up and she’s like, somebody touched me. And he’s like, oh, mom. 

Todd:  Oh, God, it’s funny. And it’s so evil dead, too. It’s so pov evil. And this isn’t the only evil dead, flat out rip off in this film, quite honestly. There’s more of it later, but actually, the camera work in this movie is quite good. Yeah, that’s a testament. Yeah, he did rip off evil dead, but the camera work in evil Dead is pretty damn good, too. And so it’s fine.   There are a number of shots, even in the beginning of this movie, where it doesn’t even matter where it’s one really long take. Like, if you’re paying attention, it could be like three or four minutes of the camera moving from one room to another and a person having a conversation, then going back out of the hallway and the camera follows them. And they have this conversation. Somebody else walks by and the camera follows them. What we sometimes refer to as geek shots, these kind of shots that filmmakers like to throw in that probably the audience doesn’t care, but other filmmakers go, wow, that’s really awesome. The movie’s filled with them. And so it’s not only a testament, really, to the director and his technical ability, but also really to the fact of the actors. The actors, I’m not going to say they give fantastic performances, but at least they’re talented enough to be able to pull off these long takes.   And the director, I guess we haven’t mentioned, is Damiano. 

Craig:  Damiani, which is like the coolest name. 

Todd:  Ever, especially when you’re making a movie like this. And he’s italian. And so we’ve talked about italian. We’ve reviewed quite a few italian films so far in the. This is his breakthrough, basically his Hollywood breakthrough. He did quite a few really well regarded films in Italy before this. And this was his breakthrough film in the United States. And he continued to do stuff after this.   He’s clearly even just from watching this movie, no matter what you think, you have to say that the directing is fantastic, the cinematography is fantastic. Even if the writing isn’t that great, the acting isn’t always that great, and it gets really goofy and silly at times. 

Craig:  Well, and I hate to go out of sequence, but since you’re talking about the cinematography, I wanted to mention one shot that I just thought was really cool. There’s one scene where Sonny is left alone at home and he’s walking through the house. The camera is kind of tracking right in front of him. And then in one take, or seemingly in one take, it flips upside down and then flips back around again. And it seemed really seamless. And I saying it out loud, it doesn’t sound that impressive, but I was thinking, how did they do that? Was that camera on some sort of apparatus that it was able to spin all the way upside down and then come back around or. I don’t know. You’re the filmmaker.   You tell me. Were you impressed with that or was I just as an amateur? No. 

Todd:  Yes. I was super impressed with it too. But I’ll tell you, that’s straight out evil dead, right? The exact same scene with a guy holding a rifle happens to ash in the evil dead, where the camera comes behind him and then comes over him and in front of him to the point where it’s upside down and then spins back over. So, yeah, I was really impressed with it technically. And I don’t know, I guess you get the camera on a crane and you do all kinds of funky stuff to do that. But I also thought, well, he totally is ripping off of Sam Raimi so specifically with this shot that it was kind of shameless. 

Craig:  I really didn’t even think about that until you said it. When? When you said it today, I’m like, oh, yeah, it’s definitely true. But I didn’t think about it at the time. 

Todd:  It’s a good shot. 

Craig:  Yeah, it is. And there’s some good stuff going on here. And like you said, are these Oscar Worthy performances? No, but I actually thought that the performances were pretty good for the most part. From the very, very beginning. Sonny is in the creepy eye window room. That’s where he lives. And there’s a scene with him and Patricia up there. And from the very beginning, it seems like there’s weird, flirtatious sexual tension going on between this brother and sister.   Isn’t it great? 

Todd:  It’s all right. 

Craig:  I love it. 

Todd:  You’re getting heavy. 

Craig:  Hey, you used to hug me all the time. 

Todd:  That was when you were lighter. 

Craig:  No, that’s not, because now you’re old and snotty. 

Todd:  Well, there is another reason. 

Craig:  What? 

Todd:  You’re not my type. 

Craig:  Oh, you like them tall, big boo? 

Todd:  That is none of your business. How about you? What’s your type? 

Craig:  I like them sensitive, dark and about this high. 

Todd:  You’re ridiculous. 

Craig:  No, come on, let’s get to know the house. And I feel like they were trying to set it up. Like, oh, it’s just innocent for now. But even at that point, I’m like, you guys are a little too close. 

Todd:  My family is pretty touchy feely huggy kissy. You know what I mean? Me and my sisters growing up, we’ll embrace each other in public. We’ll kiss each other in public. We don’t really have that. We’re just a little like that. And I think it took me a long time, probably to the point where I was in high school when I realized other people might think this is a little strange. But these two, and even beyond, even later, when Sonny has his very od birthday party, it just seems like something’s a little weird about this family. And this is one of my.   Actually, this is one of the things that I think works against the movie, honestly. And the writing and I guess the directing and acting, is that so much of what’s wrong with this family is despite the house. Right? I mean, the minute they come to the house, before they even set foot in it, the father, you can see he’s a bit of a jerk and he’s a loose cannon. He’s going off on his son and the mother is real tense about it. So you can tell that there’s a past history there. And then they’re moving in and this brother and the sister have this really weird flirtatious thing to them before any energy or whatever in the house can get to them. And so all of this sense that it’s the house and this demon or the spirit or whatever that’s causing these things to happen just really falls flat. Because we’ve already gotten all this before.   Right? 

Craig:  Yeah, I agree with you. I think that what was supposed to be implied was that this family had some weird stuff going on anyway. And then when they got in the house, the influence of the house just multiplied all of that by 100. So they get there, then they have their family dinner. And during dinner, the whole house shakes, which somehow the dad blames on the. Like, how did he make the whole house, like an earthquake happen. And a mirror falls and doesn’t break. But then when Sonny looks at it, it does break.   Weird. And then when they all go to bed, we see the pov shot of something coming out of the basement again. And it pulls the tablecloth off the table to throw over a crucifix. So it’s clear that something supernatural is going on here. And then there’s loud knocking at the door. And the mom and dad go down there and there’s nobody there. And the dad gets the shotgun, and the knocking is still going on. And he opens it up and nobody’s there.   And then in the kids room, the two little kids, they see these floating paintbrushes that get up and paint this big mural on their wall, which is like a dragon or some sort of demon. And it writes, dishonor thy father and pigs in all capital letters. And so Anthony and his wife go in the kids room. And Anthony takes off his belt to beat the kids with like they did. Like these two little kids crouching fearfully in their beds. Painted this big mural on the wall in the last three minutes. Make any sense? And then there’s this I just wrote down on my paper. Full out violence.   Like, they just go ape shit on each other. It’s crazy. The dad is trying to beat the kids with the belt. And the mom freaks out and, like, I’m going to kill you. And she runs in and scratches his face, and he’s beating on her. And then Sonny comes in with a shotgun and points it right at his dad’s head. And Trish is, like, screaming. I’m like, is this their family? This is this just a normal Friday night? It’s crazy. 

Todd:  And this is another moment where there’s again, like, this one shot thing happening at times. And the camera’s swooping around and there’s this, I have to say, like, really corny moment that ends it where the camera swoops around and Sonny’s holding the gun to his dad’s head. And his mom just. Everything stops. And his mom walks between them from behind and then walks forward and just lifts the gun out of their hands. And they’re just, like, frozen in place as she walks forward with this gun and practically stares into the camera and says, oh, my God. 

Craig:  What’s happening to us? 

Todd:  It’s so bad. Oh, my God. 

Craig:  It’s hilarious to talk about it because talking about it makes it sound so horrible. But I swear to God, I was enjoying it. Like, I was having so much fun watching it. It was crazy. 

Todd:  And the best part about it is as soon as that scene is done, like the next scene, everything’s back to normal, right? 

Craig:  And that keeps happening throughout. Like, they’ll have these big crazy things happen. They’ll be like, oh, no big deal. And then Sonny’s up in his room, I think, and he’s listening to his walkman and he’s got his headphones on. And all of a sudden the sound goes out and this voice whispers to him, why didn’t you pull the trigger? Why didn’t you shoot that pig? And that kind of becomes a motif throughout. Like, this voice is talking to him and commanding him to do things. And then the mom, they go to church. And being a Catholic, that was an actual catholic mass.   These were actual catholic priests, that they were priests. Actual catholic prayers that they were saying. And afterwards, she asks the priest to come over to bless the house. And then this priest, Father Adamsky, something doesn’t matter. I just kept referring to him as the priest. She invites this priest over, and then that kind of introduces this new element into the movie which carries through then throughout the rest. 

Todd:  Being a Catholic, you tell me, is this a common thing to ask a priest to come over and bless your house? 

Craig:  It’s not uncommon. Okay. My parents never did it, but it wouldn’t be considered weird. 

Todd:  And is it a production like it is here? Like, where he puts on his robe and he pulls out a bunch of paraphernalia and walks around the house and sprinkles holy water around? 

Craig:  I don’t know. I would imagine that it probably just depends on the priest. Some priests might do that. Some would just come in and say a little prayer and that would be the end. And again, I don’t think it’s a common thing, but I don’t think that any priest or anybody else would think that it was OD. Especially you’re moving into a new house. Some people burn sage to cleanse their house or whatever. It’s not weird, it’s not common, but it’s not. 

Todd:  Well, you know, this is another spot where there’s one of these very long takes that’s really cool. And you see that the fact the priest comes over and the Father Anthony doesn’t go to church, apparently he’s not a very religious person and the mother is. And so there’s a little bit of tension there. He really doesn’t want to have anything to do with the priest. But the priest comes in anyway, and he’s just almost obliviously cool about all of the tension. That’s going on around him. And it’s just this really long take. And I thought it was just a little strange at this point in the film that the mother is asking the priest to bless the house.   Now, if this is a thing that you move into a new house and some Catholics would just do that, then that’s fine. But I felt like up to this point, there’s really very little, if anything, that has actually happened that you don’t feel like was bubbling up beneath the surface of this family anyway. I mean, at least from the mom’s perspective. So aside from the fact that she felt like somebody touched her downstairs, they had this big argument, this big fight. Right? But I don’t think from her perspective, she would have seen anything supernatural about it. Right? I mean, it’s not like she saw the floating paintbrushes, paint the walls. 

Craig:  It’s not, dude, if my walls were shaking, I guess she didn’t actually see this happen, but she did see the crucifix covered up. I mean, I guess one of her kids could have done that. But true, I would have been inviting the priest over to my house, too. And maybe just very casually in the way that she did. Like, we just moved into a new house. Could you come bless it? Not because I think it’s haunted, even though I do, but could you maybe just stop by. 

Todd:  Say a few words from God, please? 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Okay, fair enough. Well, when Sonny shakes the priest’s hand, the kitchen explodes and just everything goes haywire. And for some reason, Anthony then hits Beth, a little girl. He blames her for it. And he’s just flat out child abuse, basically, on this girl right there in front of the priest. And he’s like, well, I think I’m going to go now. He just backs up all his things and leaves. And then they all decide that they have to go to the church to apologize.  

I mean, I don’t know. What is it, like eight or 09: 00 in the evening or something? 

Craig:  It seemed like it. But then later on when Sonny asks about it, they say, yeah, we went to the church, it was fine. And then dad took us all out to dinner. So maybe it was earlier, but it seemed late. I don’t know. Anyway, it doesn’t matter. 

Todd:  Okay, so they all end up having to go to the church, but dad stays behind. Oh, Sonny stays behind. He just doesn’t want to go. And we get the sense at this point, there was an earlier scene, I think, where Sonny was also in the basement, where the same pov shot that touched the woman also seemed to touch her. And he starts having these. I don’t know, his arm starts bubbling up or something. There are all these great bladder effects under his skin, showing that something has changed. So we get the sense by now that Sonny, he’s hearing the voices.   Obviously, he’s hearing the voices from the basement room. He goes to the basement room where dad still has his guns up on a rack, even after Sonny’s held a gun up to him. Then we get, again, what I felt was another strange moment. He goes downstairs and he’s wandering around. And again, the house is kind of waking up and being sinister, and the water pipes all start snapping, spraying water everywhere. And he goes upstairs again. Kind of no big deal, right? Because sunny, right. This is, like, something that would be a serious issue in your house.   But he goes back upstairs and we never really see anything about this again. 

Craig:  Well, the house virtually explodes several times throughout the movie. And then it’s like, that’s no big deal. Carry on. 

Todd:  Exactly. 

Craig:  The light bulbs burst and flames shoot out of the basement and the rifles on the rack all shoot off. All the pipes burst. And then the next day, it’s like, whatever, nothing happens. 

Todd:  Anyway. He’s being chased by this entity throughout the house. And even though he’s protecting himself with a gun, he never once actually points the gun at this thing that he can see that we can’t, or whatever. He just backs away from it and backs away from it downstairs and backs away from it up the stairs, backs away from it, like, into his bedroom. And eventually the gun floats out of his hand and it’s just a terribly cheesy moment. And I think probably has to do with the effects. Just like the paintbrushes, it looks like these things are on strings, just dancing around. And then I guess, are we supposed to get this impression that this spirit almost, like, rapes him? The way that it backs him onto a bed and comes down onto him. 

Craig:  Two or three times and rips his shirt open? Yeah. I don’t know. I think that it was just supposed to be. There had already been implications that he was influenced. I feel like this is the part where we’re supposed to think, oh, he’s being possessed. But that ran through my mind. It did feel rapey, but I actually liked the effects quite a bit. Like you said, there are all these bladder effects where the skin in his arms and his neck is bubbling up.   In this weird scene when his shirt gets ripped open, his abdomen is scrunched in. If you weren’t fat like me and you sucked your abdomen in, as far as you possibly could so that your ribs were protruding. That’s what it looked like. But I think that this is the point where, okay, he’s possessed now. 

Todd:  Yeah, I think you’re right. Because we were totally out of haunted house territory by now. And we’re going into full on possession. Everything happens. I think the doors are slamming and the windows are going or whatever. Anyway, the family ends up coming home and Trish and Sonny are upstairs and they have a very bizarre conversation. 

Craig:  So even before things get super weird, even their conversation is just messed up. You should see a doctor. You’ve got dark rings around your eyes. 

Todd:  What happened to church? 

Craig:  Oh, it was unbelievable. Daddy made his apologies, but then he took us out for a steak dinner. 

Todd:  Okay. Pretty believable so far. 

Craig:  Yeah. He tried to get Mommy drunk, but she wouldn’t go for it. 

Todd:  Yeah, it’s a little weird, but we’ve seen this family before. 

Craig:  There’s something strange. I think Mommy doesn’t want to make love to daddy anymore. I think he tries to force her. What? 

Todd:  Where did this come from? And who talks about this? And more importantly, where did you get this idea? And I guess there is an earlier scene and I don’t know, maybe there is a connection here, but apparently there’s a deleted scene from this film where Anthony actually. 

Craig:  Sorry, I know. It’s hard to even say. Right? 

Todd:  Yeah, like Avalie rapes his wife. I honestly don’t know where in the movie that would fit in except for the fact that this would happen and then the next day everything would be cool again, just like everything else in this movie is. It’s just terrible writing. That’s just all it is. It’s just terrible writing. 

Craig:  It’s fair. It is. It is terrible writing. But what I read was the director really wanted to shock and appall the audience. Eventually they test screened it and it didn’t test screen well. People were really uncomfortable with some of these scenes, including this next scene that comes up. Because after this conversation, Sonny then says to Trish, sit on the. 

Todd:  On. Strike a pose for me on the bed. We’re going to play a game where you are the beautiful model and I am the famous photographer. Pose for me. Take off your nightgown. 

Craig:  What? 

Todd:  Just for a second. 

Craig:  Okay? Just for a second. Gross. Come on. I had a sister and we were both teenagers at the same time. And this is not something normal. 

Todd:  No, this isn’t something. 

Craig:  No. 

Todd:  Nobody is this oblivious at this point, right? 

Craig:  And she’s like laughing like it’s fun and go ahead and bleep me. But then they fuck and we don’t get to see it. Like, I want to see it. No, we don’t see it. We just see him kiss her. But apparently they shot the scene like they shot the sex scene, and audiences were so appalled by it, understandably, that they cut it out, thank God. And then she’s at confession talking to the same priest that came to their house to bless it. And she’s like, father, I went all the way with my friend and he’s like, well, that’s bad.   You should resist temptation. And she’s like, I didn’t even like it. And we didn’t even like it. He just does it to hurt. And he’s like, you mean to hurt you? And she’s like, no, to hurt God. And he’s like, don’t even say that. That’s horrible. And then she runs out. 

Todd:  Oh, God, it’s so weird. 

Craig:  But honest to God, I appreciated that it was so bold. 

Todd:  Well, that it is. 

Craig:  I appreciated that. It was shocking. I didn’t expect it to go there. And then it did. And I’m like, well, if you’re going to go balls out, go balls out. I appreciate that, but do it a. 

Todd:  Little more deftly, I suppose. We’ve covered movies that have the incest angle before, and I’m almost every time it’s got a little bit of skill behind it. It doesn’t feel so sure in such a bizarre way. But again, like I said, it calls back to the beginning of the movie where you kind of felt this chemistry between them from the very beginning. And so, okay, you’re right, maybe it’s a little more amplified now, but come on. I mean, left to their own devices in a house that wasn’t haunted, a scene like this could very well have been extremely plausible considering the way they were acting towards each other in the first ten minutes of the film. 

Craig:  Yeah, that’s true. 

Todd:  It just comes across to me anyway as silly and a little amateurish and on its face, and it was a little bit of a distraction for me. Not that flat out brother banging his sister isn’t distracting enough, but it’s a bad movie, man. But it’s hilariously bad. And you can laugh at it. 

Craig:  It’s funny because when I was talking about it last, I watched these by myself. Of course, as everybody who listens to this podcast knows, I watch these movies by myself. But I was talking to my partner about it last night and I was like, I don’t know. It was bad, but it was good. And I think the reason that I liked it is just because it was just balls to the wall, boom, boom, boom. Especially in this first half, which if we’re ever going to get to the end, we’re going to have to wrap up pretty quickly. But in this first half, things just kept happening, happening like there was never a dull moment. 

Todd:  True. 

Craig:  I was sucked into it. Yeah, it’s bad, but I was sucked in and I was having a good time watching it, as you always do when incest. Okay, so the priest comes back to bless the house again and he’s kind of interested in Sonny. And Sonny’s door slams itself right in front of the priest. And then the mom asks the priest to bless her bedroom and bless her bed. And he’s got one of those. 

Todd:  Can you bless the cat, please? 

Craig:  Yeah, he’s got one of those sprinklers. That’s what he calls it, the holy water thing. But then blood starts coming out of it and the priest clearly sees it and he barfs. But then it disappears and Sonny laughs. And then the priest goes to talk to his superior and it’s scary german guy. Did you notice? 

Todd:  I did. It was fantastic. 

Craig:  I have no idea what this guy’s name is. Don’t even care. Don’t care to write it down. But scary german guy from Monster squad is his boss. And the priest wants to do an exorcism because he thinks there’s something going on there. But scary german guy tells him he can’t. 

Todd:  He has to wait for something, some approval from above. 

Craig:  Approval. Approval from the bishop or whatever. 

Todd:  This is standard in these movies. This is exactly right. This is the conflict. Right? 

Craig:  Let’s just wait and see what happens. 

Todd:  With exorcisms and priests and cardinals and monseignors and whatever it is. It’s exactly the same as the detective and the chief of police. Right? There’s always this, oh, I want to go ahead and do the exorcism. And the guy’s like, no, you can’t do it. You got to wait for something from ahead. And the guy’s like, no, I’m going to do it anyway, and go on. 

Craig:  My same dynamic, which is exactly what ends up happening. But then Trish invites the priest to Sunny’s birthday party, but he declines to come, which I didn’t really understand. Like, if he’s so concerned, why wouldn’t he go? 

Todd:  Well, that was just a strange scene. Anyway, she comes in, she invites him to the birthday party. She also kind of wants to talk about Sonny, which is a topic that he’s interested in. But he ends up getting a phone call. 

Craig:  Yeah, somebody had a stroke. Somebody had a stroke. 

Todd:  And so he’s like, oh, man, I got to head off and get this stroke. And so she runs out and at the same moment some guy who we’ve never seen before wanders in. Hi. Did you see a young girl in the hallway? Yeah. She was in a big hurry, too. She almost knocked me down. I don’t have time to deal with camping anyone. One of my parishioners is dying.   Sorry to hear that. Here, let me help you. I’ll be right back. I’ll be here. It was just so weird. This guy just this random guy just. 

Craig:  Pops in and he just remains a random guy. Like he’s a device. Like they needed somebody to kind of fill in these little parts. And I have no idea what his name is. He’s just another priest. His character is completely unimportant, except for that he shows up every once in a while to do something totally unimportant. 

Todd:  Yeah, but the thing is, this priest we’re getting into the second half of the movie, and the second half of the movie is the exorcist. It’s basically what it is. Yeah. And this priest who has been set up to this point to be so concerned about this family that just like in the Exorcist, he’s becoming obsessed, right? He’s gone to the monseigneur or whatever and said, get to the cardinal. And I need permission for this exorcism. And he’s like, you can’t have permission. You got to wait. You got to wait.   This girl comes into his office, clearly wants to talk to him. He’s a little distant about it. And then he gets this random phone call and is immediately runs out of the room. 

Craig:  None of it makes sense. No, it doesn’t make sense, but it sets know kind of the climax of the first half of the movie. Because Trish wanted to talk about Sonny. She’s worried about him as it turns know what she was going to tell him was that she’s scared. She thinks that he might turn. And I want to get to that. But we can’t not talk about that creepy birthday party because they have the creepy birthday party. And Sonny comes down and he’s being super nice, but his little brother and sister are giving him presents and things.   And he picks each of them up and hugs them. And if we hadn’t seen everything that had come before, it probably wouldn’t have seemed weird. But knowing that he screwed his older sister later. Earlier in the movie, it’s just like, ew, don’t touch them. Both of them. The little boy and the little girl, he picks them up and he hugs them and they’re like, I love you. And he’s like, I love you. And it makes you cringe.   Like, keep your gross, skeevy incest hands off those kids. 

Todd:  It’s just slightly over the line, right, of just a little too. Now, you could be this affectionate with your family at home, and it would be a problem. But in the movie, you don’t generally see it drag on like it does in this. And that’s the weird thing. It’s not really a party. It’s him coming downstairs, him being presented with his present. And then in turn, he goes to each of them and picks them up and embraces them and gets his hands all over him and says something nice. Goes to the next one, does the same thing, goes to the next one, does the same thing, goes to his sister, does the same thing, while everybody else is just standing around staring like they’re all taking their turns.   And then he puts his hands on the sister. And nothing any different from what he’s been doing with his little brother and his little sister. But because his hand goes down her back, the mother sees this and seems suddenly alarmed by it, like you see it in her face. Nothing else in this scene was alarming to you. But his hand going down her back suddenly is alarming to you, right? 

Craig:  And then the mom confronts the sister later because she sees the sister go up to Sonny’s room because Sonny retreat as soon as he’s done with his family, he goes back up to his room. All the guests arrive and he disappears. 

Todd:  But wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. Once he’s done embracing his sister and his mom is alarmed, he ends up on the other side of the table and the father’s there. We haven’t even seen the father until this point. And he kind of half makes up with him. Oh, it’s okay. 

Craig:  And everybody claps. 

Todd:  Everybody claps. And they’re all on the other side of the table, like, just staring at him. It’s, like, completely posed. Like you could take the family picture at this point. And then all of a sudden, the doorbell rings and, like, everybody else from the neighborhood suddenly comes in at the same time. 

Craig:  Well. And while he’s standing there across the table, the evil voice says to him, look at them. They’re pathetic animals. They’d be better off if you kill them. 

Todd:  Don’t you think? So? 

Craig:  He, like, kind of slyly smiled. I feel like what they were trying to accomplish was kind of the battle between Sonny being his real self, who really does love his family, but he’s being influenced by this evil voice that’s kind of taking over. It doesn’t play like that at all. He just seems like a freaking Creeper. 

Todd:  Who occasionally gets a vocal message, like, what, three times from this spirit? He doesn’t seem that tormented. Let’s just put it that way. 

Craig:  Well, and then that’s what happens. Honest to God, I felt like this was going to be the conclusion of the movie, even though I knew there was still 45 minutes left. Sonny’s laying in bed, there’s a big storm outside. And the voice says to him, you must do it now. And all of a sudden, Sonny’s face turns into this demon face. And he goes around the house and he shoots his whole family. I mean, that’s basically all it is now in real life. In the story that this is actually based on.   It’s actually kind of mysterious because every member of the family was found face down in their bed as though they didn’t hear the rest of them being shot. And I think both of the parents were shot twice, and all of the kids were shot once. And how could they not hear that? Why would they still be in bed? Like the guy Defeo, who killed his whole family? Initially, he said that it had been some mob boss that his dad was involved with. But then within the next couple of days, he confessed that he did it. And then later, years down the road, he made up. Well, I assume he made up all kinds of stories that his sister was in on it, and really she killed everybody. And he only killed her. And he made up all kinds of stories that there was no evidence for.   But it was weird. But in the movie, demon, Sonny just goes around and one by one kills them all. And then they’re all dead. 

Todd:  And it’s really kind of brutal. And very brutal. It’s very brutal and it’s effectively shocking. Especially because we’ve really gotten to know this whole family and we really have a lot of sympathy. Well, for the kids, because they’re kids, right? 

Craig:  The kids, little kids. 

Todd:  But the sister. The sister is just like this sweet girl. I sort of felt like you get the feeling, anyway, as you’re watching this movie that you’re going to be with this girl throughout the film, right? Because she’s such an integral part of the story and such a sympathetic character, and she seems conflicted with her thing with her brother. And he flat out kills her. And when the cops pull everybody out in a body bag and the priest is back at the house and he almost one by one, gets to see all the different bodies, and they unzip the body bag and she’s in there, I was almost kind of surprised. I was like, really? Like, she’s dead. That’s it. That’s like it for her, for this movie. 

Craig:  And it feels like two movies. And then the second part, the last 45 minutes, it really is the exorcist where this priest is super concerned about what’s going on. And he visits the kid in jail, and the demon reveals itself to the priest, but the cops don’t believe him. And scary german guy shows up again and is like, you shamed the church because we never gave you permission. And the lawyer tries to plead that he’s innocent by means of possession. 

Todd:  Dude, you were flying through this so fast because we got to get to the end of this podcast, but you were passing by some of the funniest parts of this movie because. 

Craig:  Stop me. Go for it. 

Todd:  Think about that seat at the back of the car with scary german guy again, right? The priest is in the back of this car with the scary german guy, and they’re having their typical conversation where scary german guy is telling him, you can’t go behind the church, you can’t go rogue like this or whatever. And the priest’s like, what? 

Craig:  I have to. 

Todd:  You guys can’t turn a blind eye. 

Craig:  To it, blah, blah, blah. 

Todd:  So he jumps out of the car and he goes. And then some random dude gets into the car next to scary german guy just to deliver the line. Now I understand why all the prisoners are complaining about him. He’s coming back to say one or two more things. It is so bad. And the whole time, scary german guy is almost looking directly at the camera. 

Craig:  It is pretty hilarious. It’s true. It is pretty hilarious. And then I am trying to wrap things up because we’ve been talking for too long, but Detective Turner is the detective, apparently, who is in charge of this case, and he’s played by Moses Gunn. Now, this is another guy who I was like, oh, my gosh, I know who this guy is, but I can’t figure it out. And I think he’s been in lots and lots of stuff. But what I remembered him from is he was in the never ending story. He was the guy that tasked Atreu with the quest.   And as soon as I read that, I was like, oh, yeah, that’s him. He won’t release him for the exorcism. But the demon. And I feel like this is straight out of exorcist three, which I don’t even know if exorcist three had come out at this point. Probably not. 

Todd:  No. 

Craig:  The possessed guy talking to the police guy in a jail cell. It is exorcist three. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And that’s what’s going on. And the priest wants to take him out and take him to the church so that he can exorcise him, but the cops won’t let him. And then the priest goes to the Amityville house and sees Trish’s ghost, right? 

Todd:  That’s right. 

Craig:  And then just a little bit later, Trish’s ghost calls him on the phone. 

Todd:  Well, this random woman walks up to him and says, father, what are you doing out here? 

Craig:  Nice to meet you. I’m the exposition librarian. 

Todd:  And as they’re walking away, I know some strange stories about that house. And the next scene, it’s like she’s a librarian and she’s walking him through the basement of the library, showing him newspaper clippings. 

Craig:  Oh, God. And then I love that, because let me give you the exposition. This house was built by a witch on an ancient indian burial ground. 

Todd:  That’s right. 

Craig:  The end. That’s why bad things happen. 

Todd:  There piled so many things on top of each other. Oh, my gosh. Woman expelled from Salem for witchcraft built a house on an ancient indian burial ground. 

Craig:  Okay, so then Sonny has his trial, and the lawyer tries to argue, innocent by virtue of possession. And the judge is like, no. Then everybody will say, the devil made me do it. And so then Sonny faints, and he ends up in the hospital. And the priest and the detective are there with him and save me, appears in blood on his arm and then disappears immediately straight out of the exorcist. 

Todd:  It’s so hilarious, because, again, it’s like, it’s such a kitchen sink movie. The scene before that, when they’re in the freaking courthouse. Your honor, it is my intention to prove at the trial that Sonny Montelli is a victim of demonic possession. And therefore what, Mr. Booth? Demonic possession, your honor. Possession by demons and therefore innocent. The charges placed against him. Your honor, this is highly irregular.   Will counsel please approach the bench? I’m like, where is this movie going? Are we in for some courtroom drama here? No, we never get that again. 

Craig:  No, it becomes law and order for, like, three minutes. Moving on, moving on. The detective, after they see this message appear in the kid’s arm, wants to go get the doctor. And the priest is like, no, you have to let me take him. And the detective is like, okay, here, take my gun, knock me out with it, and then you can take him. And this part, I think that you thought this movie was way more dumb than I did, but this part was super dumb. He knocks the detective out, and then he just sneaks the kid out of the hospital, and he takes him to the church. And this whole time, this is supposedly a demon possessed kid who murdered his whole family.   And all of a sudden, the priest just thinks, like, oh, it’ll be super easy to get him into the church and exorcise him because I apparently have. 

Todd:  To get him into the church, too, right? 

Craig:  And so he takes him up the church steps. Sonny sees the church and freaks out, and he runs back down the steps. 

Todd:  He casts his level five wall of fire spell. 

Craig:  Yes. And then he’s gone. He’s disappeared. And so the priest automatically knows that he’s gone back to the house, the Amityville house. And so the priest goes there, and he sees some spirits coming out of the evil poop room, and he asks God to bless these spirits or something. Then he goes upstairs and straight up has a father Karis movie with Sonny upstairs. And as much as it totally copies the exorcist, I mean, it is straight up a copy, down to the look. Down to Sonny’s look.   I mean, he looks just like Reagan. Yeah, exactly. But it looks good. I mean, it was a good copy. 

Todd:  It’s scary. 

Craig:  Yeah, but, I mean, it’s an exact copy. And they have the priest. You can never defeat me, and you’re weak, and blah, blah, blah. And you don’t have the backing of the church, so you’re all alone. And the priest is like, tell me your name. You know my name. You know my name very well, Father. And all of a sudden, Sonny has turned into Trish, the whore. 

Todd:  Whore Trish. She’s got the Tammy Faye baker look. She’s, like, licking her lips. 

Craig:  When I was making my confession, you thought about making love to me, didn’t you? And he’s like, no, I didn’t. And you say, licking her lips. No. She is making the most obscene gestures with her, like, comically obscene, but it’s funny. And then it’s the whole movie of the Exorcist. In about five minutes, the priest is trying to cast out the demon, and all of a sudden, Sonny’s face just starts to rip off all those bulges in his skin that we’ve seen before. It’s, like, amplified by ten, and his skin is splitting, and his whole face rips off to reveal this little weird alien demon head. 

Todd:  Yeah, it was awesome. 

Craig:  It was awesome. Oh, my God. It was really cool. Practical effects. Loved it. But the whole time I’m thinking, how is he going to recover from this? His whole face is gone. 

Todd:  There’s no going back from that, right? 

Craig:  Except that there is, because it’s a movie. Yeah, just like in the exorcist. The priest says, let it be me. 

Todd:  My God, not him. Let it be me. 

Craig:  The whole house explodes. 

Todd:  Literally, literally explodes. 

Craig:  But then it’s okay again. 

Todd:  Nothing happened. By the way, just before all this starts, the other priest guy or whatever, the priest friend on the fishing trip or whatever, had pulled up to the house, looked at it and walked toward the entrance. That happened about ten minutes before all of this started going down, right? 

Craig:  He must have been looking around a lot. 

Todd:  He was in the explosion, but he didn’t notice it. 

Craig:  All this stuff. And so then after the house explodes, we see Sonny rise up in crucifix position in all of this light. And he stands up and he’s fine. Rando Priest, who only serves the function to be there when necessary, shows up and escorts him out. And the cops are all there, and he’s like, don’t worry. We’ll make them understand that it wasn’t your fault. 

Todd:  The most optimistic statement of the year. Completely understand. You were possessed by a demon. 

Craig:  Yeah, I’ll tell him. It’ll be good. And so the police take Sonny away, and then we cut back to the priest sitting in the attic, and he’s all sweaty and gross. And then we see that his skin is, like, bulging, and he’s like, oh, God, don’t forsake me. The end, which is so great, which. 

Todd:  Is why this is such a low rent exorcist. In the exorcist, the guy’s like, take me, take me. And he takes the demon. The demon possesses him, and then he basically commits suicide. He jumps out the window. I mean, there’s all this backstory with him, right? He’s kind of tormented himself. And so there’s just all this angst, and it just feels like this is his destiny, that he’s going to. One good thing for this girl in this movie.   This guy’s like, let it be me. My God, not him, not him. So then the demon gets him, and then at the end, he’s whining, oh, God, please don’t forsake me. You just asked for the demon right now you don’t want him anymore. 

Craig:  Yeah. And then the last shot is just the new for sale sign outside the house. God, I don’t know. You have now convinced me that this is in fact a bad movie. But I have to say I really enjoyed watching it. It was fun to watch and I couldn’t believe that I had never seen it before. Why would you not be a horror fan if you were listening to this podcast? But if you are and you haven’t seen this movie, watch it. It’s fun.   Get some buddies together and pop some popcorn and get some beer and sit around and watch this. It’s funny. It is a fun movie. 

Todd:  This is the movie you’re looking for. This is really the goofy 80s movie horror film pulls from so many better films to cobble together this monstrosity of a film that this is. But I agree with you for that reason. It was hilarious. Now, it was fun to watch. It would have been more fun for me to watch with like five other people and six beers in me, that would have been even better. So I’m not going to knock it for that. But I will say that after the first half ended, I looked at the running time and I was like, what in the world is going to happen for the next 45 minutes? 

Craig:  Right? 

Todd:  For the next 45 minutes I was checking my watch every five minutes. 

Craig:  Fair. 

Todd:  This movie still, really, we have 20 minutes left. It was pretty slow. 

Craig:  True. And you could just watch it up through the final murder scene and then turn it off. 

Todd:  Fair enough. 

Craig:  Or watch it up through that and then fast forward into the last ten minutes. Because the last ten minutes, maybe five minutes are kind of fun. And I have to say, as much as it is a bunch of 80s movies cobbled together, it is not poorly made. I have seen much worse in terms of quality. In terms of acting, cinematography, direction, I have seen much, much worse. This is not bad in terms of that kind of quality. 

Todd:  That’s really the great irony about it. And I think that’s just what magnifies how hilarious it is, is it really is taking itself so seriously and it’s so well crafted in the cinematography department, in a lot of the acting department, in the fact that they’re not a list actors, but they’re at least especially for their time, very recognizable actors. This movie got a big release. It’s a dino de Laurentis production. It’s not like. Yep. I mean, granted, he’s put his name on a lot of schlock. He’s kind of schlockmeister, but his movies generally tended to be very successful.   Yeah, all of those things combined just makes it that much funnier. I think, when you end up watching it, it’s the great irony of the film. The writing, though, was terrible. 

Craig:  I have to say that my final verdict is that I liked it. I liked it and I’ll probably watch it again. I mean, I think that this would be a fun one. I am somebody, and I know you are, too. My friend who really enjoys watching lots of horror movies around Halloween time. And this would be one that I would pop in just for fun. Just for fun around Halloween time to watch a fun scary movie. I liked it.   Is it great? Is it a classic? Certainly not. I liked it. I had a lot of fun watching it. Would watch it again. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. Your party would be going on and it’d be kind of playing in the background. Every now and then you’d be glancing at it, but then at that point where the brother comes into the room and says, sit on the edge of the bed, let’s play, you’d be, oh, everybody come in the room. Everybody come. All right. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this one, please share it with a friend. You can find us on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, any place that you can find your favorite podcast.   And you can also find us on Facebook where we have a page there like us. Share us, discuss this film and any other films you’d like us to see as well. We really love hearing your feedback. We really all love responding with you. Until next week, I’m Tod. 

Craig:  And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

By request, we dive back into the Jeepers Creepers franchise, just as the third one is about to hit the theaters (supposedly) for a single day. Regardless of what you think of Victor Salva, we have to admit that he makes some very entertaining films.

Episode 97, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Today’s episode, we’re getting into another request. This is 2003’s Jeepers Creepers 2 by request by a few people, actually, a couple at least. Adam and Megan have both asked for this. And so, yeah, we already reviewed Jeepers Creepers 1 quite some time ago. I hadn’t seen it up until that point and was really pretty pleasantly surprised by it.   I think, much like Jeepers Creepers 2, Craig had seen it a 1000000 times already. 

Craig:  Yep. Yep. Yep. 

Todd:  So, this was also my first time going into it, and it’s very different film, I think, from the first Jeepers Creepers. 

Craig:  Yeah. It is. And and one of the things that I liked so much about the first movie was that there was so much mystery. You didn’t know what was going on for the longest time. And one of the things that I liked about the first one was that you really thought that it was just some creepy 

Todd:  guy 

Craig:  doing this stuff. And you didn’t find out until about halfway through the movie that it was actually a monster. And, of course, in the sequel, most people I would assume are already going in knowing kind of what this villain is all about, knowing that he’s a supernatural villain. And so I think that this movie kind of had that working against it, but they just embraced it from the beginning and made him a scary monster throughout. And it worked. As far as sequels go, I think this is a really strong sequel. I think sequels are really hit or miss. With some movies, you’ve got enough mythology, you’ve got enough story that a sequel just makes sense and and it carries the the story further.   And and then sometimes 

Todd:  not. You know, sometimes 

Craig:  sometimes, sequels just get into some kind of silly territory and they’re they’re big letdowns. I don’t think this movie is a letdown at all. I I think that it’s a a strong movie on its own. Is it perfect? No. I think it drags on maybe a little bit too long, but for the most part, as far as sequels go, I think it’s it’s pretty solid. 

Todd:  You know, talking about what makes sequels bad and that is maybe when they try a little too hard to be different. You know, it seems like sequels can do one of 2 things wrong. 1, they can just rehash the old movie like just basically follow the same themes, don’t add anything new to it or they can kind of go the other the pendulum could swing in the complete opposite direction and they screw up so much or change, I should say, so much of what people liked about the original that it seems it doesn’t even seem like a sequel, you know. It’s like it’s own movie with elements of the old one and that just disappoints the fans who are excited about the sequel in the first place. So I think what this movie does really right in any case is it picks up right where that first one left off and it goes with the flow and it really doesn’t change anything about it except like what you said, there’s no more mystery anymore. And I have to say that was the thing that I think kept me from really enjoying this movie. At least, you you know, when I was comparing it against the last one, there’s this there, you just get all these revelations. It’s it’s, oh, there’s this creepy guy.   Oh, he does these weird things with these bodies. Oh, he seems to be supernatural. And then, it’s like, he’s got wings? 

Craig:  Right. Right. You know, 

Todd:  it’s like one hit after another and it it gets pretty cool and then, I think, by about halfway through the movie or 2 thirds of the way through it, you realize this is just gonna be this these people against this guy, you know. It that’s what it ends up being and that is basically what this movie is from the very beginning to the very end. 

Craig:  Right. And and Victor Salva, who is the director of this, and I I I hate to even bring this up, but I feel like we should address it. It. We here at 2 guys in a chainsaw in no way condone Victor Salva’s criminal past. Victor Salva was tried and convicted of molesting his young male star of one of his first movies. And a lot of people are, you know, are very uncomfortable about that and and protest his movies because of that. And I understand that entirely. You know, the man, you know, he he did the Craig.   He served his time. Some people feel like he got off too easy. That may very well be the case. But nonetheless, he’s still making these movies and I’m still watching them. Again, I don’t condone any of any of his previous behavior, but, I can still try to appreciate him as an artist. But Salva never intended he he didn’t want there to be a sequel to his first movie. That that’s why he made the rules the way he did. The the movie opens up with, you know, some some words on the screen that say every 23rd spring for 23 days, it gets to eat.   And Salva intentionally made that rule because he didn’t want a sequel. He thought, you know, if it’s this very limited span of time that this villain comes out and it’s only every 23 years, he thought, well, the only way there could be a sequel would be if we set it 23 years in the future, and he thought the studio would never go for that. But the first movie did very well and, the studio wanted a sequel and he decided to do it. And so the the way that they solved that was that they just set it in the exact same time frame, as the the first movie. It’s it’s like a few days later after the first movie. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And so everything that we see, in this second movie just happens in the next couple days after the first one. 

Todd:  And it’s, and it’s the last day. It’s the 23rd day, which is another guard against having a sequel to this film, which apparently is gonna be coming out anyway. 

Craig:  Right. And I don’t know. I I guess we could have saved it to talk about at the end, but there is a third one coming out, supposedly, maybe in October of this year. Apparently, it is set between the events of part 1 and part 2. 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. I guess you could have any number of days and you’re not gonna get any more than 23 Jeepers, Seac Creepers and its sequels. That’s that’s as far as they can go, I’m afraid. 

Craig:  I I guess. We will see. Oh. The okay. So this movie, I I I really like the opening scene of this movie. You know, it opens up onto this beautiful rural scene of a cornfield, and it’s all very bright and golden. And this little blonde boy, not little, he’s probably, I don’t know, 13, is setting up scarecrows, in in the cornfield, and his dad and his older brother are back over by the house. The the scarecrows are are fairly creepy in their own right, but after having, you know, some yelling back and forth with his dad and his older brother, Billy takes a look at one of the scarecrows, and it really quickly looks at him and then looks back.   And and I feel like that sounds really cheesy as I’m saying it, but it’s actually really pretty freaking spooky in the movie. And so he walks over to the scarecrow and he’s kinda looking at it, and he looks down at its feet and they are these kind of clawed bat like feet, which which freaks him out. And so he takes off running back towards the house or the barn or whatever. And the creeper, who has been posing as one of these scarecrows, leaps about 20 feet into the air, and then starts chasing him. And eventually, it just pounces like like a cougar pounces on him from behind, and he screams. And his dad and and brother hear, and they go running off into the cornfield to try to see what’s going on. And then we just see, the creeper has this kid by the hair and is just running, dragging him through this cornfield. And it’s just a I don’t know.   It just feels like a really tense scene because you see the dad who ends up being Jack Taggart senior. He’s played by Ray Wise. Ray Wise has been in everything. I mean, 

Todd:  he’s been in a 

Craig:  1000000 movies. A lot of people probably know him from Twin Peaks, but he’s been in tons of things. And he’s really good in this movie. He he looks, more haggard. He’s usually a very kind of distinguished, handsome looking guy, but he plays kind of a haggard farmer in in this movie. And they’re they’re chasing this thing that they don’t know what it is that’s dragging this little boy through the corn. And and just, you know, you see the look on this dad’s face and he’s scared and eventually the creeper jumps up and flies away carrying this boy and its talons, and you just see this dad and his other son watching it fly away, and there’s nothing that they can do, and and the camera lingers on Craig Wise’s eyes as he’s just watching his son being taken away and there’s nothing that he can do. And I feel like that scene really set a good tone for the movie.   It was a scary opening, I thought. And and that’s good. You want that in a horror movie. You want them to grab you right from the beginning. 

Todd:  Yeah. And again, it’s a it’s it’s a bit of a just like the first movie, it kinda just goes balls out. I think it was was was what I my impression of it. This one Todd, immediately, you’ve got a kid who’s just being taken away. And you’re never gonna see this kid again. I mean, he’s Right. Gone. From this point on, you get these sort of, parallel stories, although that might be a little too generous, of the father and his other son basically going out to hunt this thing trying to Right.   Find it. And, maybe there’s this idea in your head that he’s to rescue his son somehow or at least he hopes he’s going to, but it’s really only gonna be for revenge because his son is gone. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  He’s not coming back. Once once this guy gets you, you’re gone. And so those are the stakes that we that we have and when it Todd doesn’t matter if you’re an adult or you’re a kid, some horror movies are not willing to go there and and this one definitely is. And so that that has that going forward, I think. Sure. So, then, we get a school bus, going through the middle of nowhere. I guess they’re coming back from a big game and so it’s I don’t know, like, the Glee Club and the cheerleaders or something on the on the bus along with the with the yeah. I mean, I I I what 

Craig:  what movie did you watch? There’s no gleeful. 

Todd:  I was supposed to believe that these are all cheerleaders. Is that who all the girls were? And then the boys 3 

Craig:  of them. It’s the it’s the football team, and and they’re the bantams. And 

Todd:  How could why would you only have 3 cheerleaders? I don’t know if she had that. 

Craig:  I don’t know. It’s rural America, Todd. Do you know? 3 or 4. Maybe 

Todd:  who knows? Yeah. Small towns. We love our cheerleaders in our in our football players. It should be 2 buses filled with the for those kids. 

Craig:  Yeah. But it’s it’s a bus full of, very good looking 

Todd:  Yeah. That’s for sure. 

Craig:  Teenage to 20 something male actors. Half of them, you know, shirtless. And again, I’m not really sure what Victor Salvo was thinking here. Here you know, he’s been convicted. He’s been convicted of, abusing a young male actor. And now he decides for this movie that he’s gonna cast all these shirtless male models. 

Todd:  Yeah. Really not helping himself much, is he? Probably not. Probably 

Craig:  at least not at least not with, you know, those people who are are still angry at him. But, yeah, they’re they’re the the bantams and they’re chanting over and over again this their fight song. 

Clip:  How long can they keep this up? 

Todd:  And the 

Clip:  smoke Forever. They have a fight song with the word cock in it. 

Todd:  Boy, you know, all this kinda went right by me, but now that you pointed it all out, Craig, it’s 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s it’s a little it’s a little Craig worthy, frankly, but, they’ve just won, like, they’re the state champions or or something. And so the bus is going down this lonesome highway, the same lonesome highway that we saw in the first movie, and we get introduced to these characters. Now, I I can’t decide if this is something about the movie that I don’t like, or if it doesn’t bother me. I can’t decide because there are so many people on this bus that you really can’t keep track of who they all are, and it’s really not all that important. The most interesting characters to me on the bus in the beginning are the bus driver. I mean, she looks like, NFL football player. She’s this big lady and, she’s got kind of this gruff voice and and she’s an interesting character.   And then you got the coach and the assistant coach. And then you just got all these kind of generic kids. Yeah. I I would say about 5050, white guys, black guys, and then some also, Hispanic guys as well. And then you’ve got these, 3, apparently the only 3 cheerleaders. And they’re just driving along, and and one of the main characters, or at least you get the sense that he’s supposed to be the main characters, is Scott, who is played by Eric Neninger. I have no idea, if he’s done anything else. If he has, I I don’t know what it is.   He’s the really broody one. And, like, he’s throughout the course of the movie, you come to find that he’s a total dick. Like, he’s just an asshole. Like, he’s broody, and you find out that the reason that he’s broody is because he didn’t get enough play time in the game. 

Clip:  Hannah’s got it in for me. Him and his little token white boy bars. I don’t know. Maybe I got the wrong skin color to get evil play on this team. 

Todd:  Oh my god. 

Craig:  He’s like, poor white boy. Like, jeez. Come on. It comes up also that he’s also a homophobe. Like, he’s just 

Todd:  He’s like every Dick. He’s just a jerk all the way around. And his girlfriend even make some comment about how, when we win a game, he doesn’t wanna have anything to do with me. And when we lose a game, he’s all over me or something like that. Yeah. He’s really needy needy guy. 

Craig:  He’s just an asshole. But, anyway, we we we, you know, are introduced to these kids, and they’re all pretty nondescript. And then they get a flat tire. And, the the adults get off the bus to inspect the flat tire and and they find in it a throwing star, basically, made out of bone, and there are teeth in it. And it doesn’t freak them out nearly as much as it should. 

Todd:  Well, this is interesting. Wonder where this came from. Who lives on the road? 

Craig:  So they think they’re stranded there for a while. And and while they’re there, they hear on the radio news reports about things from the previous movie. In the previous movie, the two main characters had stumbled upon this church where the creeper it was his lair apparently, and there were all these the the whole ceiling was kind of like a tapestry of, dead bodies stitched together, And they hear about that on the radio. 

Todd:  It was like HR Geiger and the Sistine Chapel sort of deal. Yeah. 

Craig:  That it very good description. 

Todd:  If if the Sistine Chapel were like a tiny little church out the middle of nowhere. Right. 

Craig:  Okay. So we so we get that set up, and and so they’re stranded for the time being. Then we cut back to Jack, the the dad from the beginning, and and his older son, Jack Junior, is kinda searching around in the cornfield, and he finds this knife, which ends up being the creeper’s knife. And it it seems like there’s something supernatural about it because he gives it to his dad and his dad, who is virtually catatonic. Like, obviously, this guy is very much disturbed by the fact that his kid is gone. And but he takes the knife, but then it somehow kind of supernaturally flies out of his hand and into the wall. So it the suggestion seemed to be to me that the knife, like, wanted to get back to its owner. 

Todd:  That’s what I thought initially but then it didn’t really that wasn’t very consistent. Yeah? 

Craig:  I feel like what Jack Yeah. I feel like what Jack decides about the knife is because it’s somehow connected to the creeper, maybe this is what we can kill it with. It’s not particularly fleshed out, but at the same time, whatever. Like, it it You do care. It didn’t do the right. It didn’t it didn’t play such a large role in the movie that I really particularly cared. But keeping us up with them, letting us know that they are still part of this movie. Yeah. 

Todd:  Which do you do have to continue to remind us about. Right. To be quite honest, which is why I said it was, you know, it was just a little generous to maybe call these parallel story lines because they only pop in, like like, when it’s helpful. Right. 

Craig:  Exact and then they show up at the end, and they’re very helpful, and and that’s great. 

Todd:  Helpful. Yeah. Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. But we but we gotta keep reminding the audience that they’re still still in this movie. After we see them, then we cut back to a not at all gratuitous shot of all of these hot male model types sunbathing on the 

Todd:  top of the bus. Wow. You’re right about this. You’re totally right. 

Craig:  Listen. Listen. I’m not complaining. 

Todd:  I’m just saying. Alright? 

Craig:  And then the 3 girls go off to smoke a cigarette together. And there’s kind of a funny scene there where the bus driver kind of catches them and they’re trying to hold their smoke in and kind of and then the bus driver, the lady bus driver ends up smoking with them. It’s kind of funny. Meanwhile, the boys all go off and whip their dicks out 

Todd:  together. Oh my goodness. 

Craig:  I can’t believe that this is a revelation to you. I mean, like, this is all I could think of when 

Todd:  I was watching this. To be honest, I did remember kinda going, wow. This is, like, you know, fairly unusual, like, you know, to see so much of this, but I I guess maybe in the back of my mind, I had put the Victor Silva thing, aside. You know? I had forgotten about his history. But, yeah, if you come into this movie with that fresh in your mind, you’re you’re definitely gonna be turning your head, I think, a few more times. 

Craig:  Yeah. So the the boys go off and pee together, all of them. And 

Todd:  I 

Craig:  don’t know if this was a direct tutorial choice or if it was, just, you know, an actor working on a whim, but one of the boys pulls his pants all the way down. Now, of course, you don’t see any of this. You just see them all from the waist up. But, like, I just thought it was an interesting character choice. 

Todd:  I I 

Craig:  I, you know, I I guess that I’ve heard of this. I’ve heard of guys that pull their pants down to pee. I’ve heard of guys that sit down to pee. I’ve just never actually witnessed it in my life. And so to see this guy just, like, roll his pants all the way down out in the open, you know, when the cheerleaders are just over in the grove smoking their Yeah. I’m not that confident, but good on you, I guess. You know, if you if you look like a model, you know, why not? Go for it. 

Todd:  What would it be like to be an actor in this movie? You know, you got Victor Salva directing you. I’m like, okay. Yeah. I hate out. Just pull it all the way down. All the way down. The Yeah. Those your character would definitely do that. 

Craig:  Those kids these these kids are so young. They probably they probably didn’t even know. Oh, god. Let’s that’s that’s too creepy. 

Todd:  That’s about it. Yeah. 

Craig:  There there there there’s no more there there’s not much there’s not much more of that moving forward. I mean, there there are some instances where the guy’s clothes get torn off unnecessarily later on in the movie, but, you know, whatever. It is what it is. 

Todd:  Then some more gratuitous things come up later, of course. Gratuitous in a different sense. I mean, the the bus is stranded. I think it it gets another flat tire. Right? 

Craig:  Yeah. And and we get the the, like, we see the shadow of the creeper, you know, like, flying around above them and stuff, but eventually they decide we’ll just go on on this one flat tire. But then, yeah, they get another flat tire, then they’re stuck. 

Todd:  And conveniently, they’re out in the middle of nowhere, and there’s no cell signal, which again is very 2003. I don’t even think you can go out into any cornfield in America anymore without a cell signal. Right. And then we get another shot of the father and son welding and forging, welding and forging. I think they’re putting together their materials. They’re gonna go out. They soup up a truck basically to go out and and take care of the creeper. And then we, you know, we don’t have to worry about them for a while.   Somewhere between the bus getting its first flat tire and getting its second flat tire, one of the girls on the car has a dream. 

Craig:  Yeah. Minxy. What a great name. Minxy. 

Todd:  This was a total eye roll moment for me. Talk about convenience. So she has this dream on this bus as they’re driving by and her dream has a cameo of Justin Long in it from the first movie, telling them to turn back, turn back, turn back. She kind of sees a little bit of the impression of what happened in the first movie, and then boom, you know, the tire blows out again on the bus and then wakes her up, and that’s the second time. But, conveniently, because she’s had this dream later on, she’s able to explain absolutely everything to the rest of the group, like down to the 23 days thing. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s ridiculous. 

Clip:  It can smell something in people, in their fear, something that helps it pick people out. Pick people out for what? I don’t understand how you would know that, sweetie. But Todd boy told me. I think he was trying to warn me. He was trying to warn all of us that this thing has been around for 1000 of years and that nothing has been able to kill it. The boy was trying to warn us that by warning, it has to go back into the Earth.   Oh, come on.   Into the ground for 23 more years. 

Todd:  She got the whole thing in in a vision that we didn’t even see, but it’s like it was that came to her. 

Craig:  You know, it’s funny in talking about it analytically, it’s it’s so terrible. I mean, it’s it’s such a lame horror convention that, like and and one of the her boy no. It’s not her boyfriend. It’s, Scott, the asshole. At one point says, this morning you were shaking your pom poms at people and now you’re a psychic. And seriously, I mean, that’s what it is. Like just out of nowhere, all of a sudden this girl has these visions and premonitions that, you know, she can tell them, She can give them the complete exposition, the whole story. 

Clip:  And it doesn’t matter if we’re hiding on this bus or if we’re hiding under our beds. It’ll find us, the ones that it picked out. 

Todd:  And that’s one of the flaws really of of this whole premise is that you have to know the whole story. Right. Because as it turns out, they’re all gonna get attacked on this bus, of course. The first thing that happens is the coach is pulled away, and a teacher is pulled away through the door. And this is a little comical at times. Like like the coach gets yanked away kind of in the background where we can see it, but but not everybody else notices it at first. It’s another one of these creepers swooping down and and pulling them up and and away. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  But then the coach, the teacher gets real just gets pulled out the door through kind of a scene where they’re all trying to pull pull back in, pull them back in and whatnot. But unless you know the backstory, these kids wouldn’t know how they needed to react and and act. It wouldn’t have had the tension. They had to know that all they had to do was survive the night because this is the 23rd day, and he was gonna go back to sleep the next day. So that later becomes some of the tension between them as they’re arguing what to do. They’re the people who just wanna stay and bunker down in the bus, and they’re those who kinda want to run. And this knowledge that they’re given by this, you know, the psychic moment by this girl obviously plays into that argument quite neatly. 

Craig:  Yeah. And and you you say, you know, it it’s kind of cheesy and stupid, and it is, but it is in the way that monster movies are. I mean, you know, it’s a monster movie. It’s not realistic. 

Todd:  I just think it’s clunky. It’s just clunky, you know. I’m not saying the whole premise is stupid. I mean, you the premise can be whatever it is, but the way that the characters figure out where they stand, it’s just not handled very definitely. 

Craig:  That is oh, gosh. Yeah. That’s absolutely true. I I just I remember the first time I saw and I I was a fan of the first movie and I remember the first time that I saw this movie. I liked it. You know, I thought it was a good sequel and I, and I still like it, But, like, I know what you’re talking about. The first couple, it’s 2 of the adults, the bus driver and the coach. They get the adults out of the way right away, which I actually think is smart, you know? We should be focused on the young people.   The first two of them, when, you know, they’re laying out flares on the Todd, and and the bus driver is like, oh, you know, something’s going on. We’ve gotta get these kids back in the bus. You know, like, they’re not entirely stupid. Yeah. But they do. You know, like, it’s kind of we see them out of focus. Like, we’re focused on other people in the frame and they’re just in the background and they just get snatched out of the air and and taken away. 

Todd:  It’s cool. 

Craig:  Yeah. It is kinda cool. And one of the things that I appreciate about this movie as a sequel is that it’s established in the first movie that this creeper has this ability. He could do this. We don’t see that much of it in the first movie. We don’t see much much I mean, we do see him flying around. He flies away at the end with Derry, but we don’t see a lot of it in the first movie. And here, it’s just like, okay, you already know.   You already know what he’s capable of, so we’re just gonna go for it. And I and I actually kinda like that. And and it’s they’re jump scares, I guess. But I I thought it was kinda fun. But I do know what you mean. The last adult is standing in the doorway of the bus when he gets grabbed. And he gets grabbed by kind of these hairy feet, and they’re they’re like trying to pull them in. And it’s a little bee, you know, it’s a little bee movie monster movie with these hairy feet hanging onto him or whatever, but 

Todd:  It’s fun. Exactly. 

Craig:  Like, I don’t I don’t wanna be too critical of it because it’s fun. It’s not it’s not a masterpiece by any stretch of the imagination, but it’s it’s fun to watch. 

Todd:  Well, it really just becomes this demon more or less playing with them. Yeah. He could literally go in there, rip the top off of this bus like a sardine can and just start yanking them out and tearing them up. But he seems to get some pleasure, in taking his time with it and playing with them. And we got a little bit of that the first movie, but we really get it like overboard in this movie, I think. Yeah. Like, Immediately after the teachers are, you know, all the adults are out of the way, Scotty decides he wants to get off the bus and there’s kind of a dumb fight between him and Izzy the scar guy. And I think some of the racism, you know, kind of comes up and comes into play. 

Craig:  And The homophobia. Right? Because Yeah. Izzy, apparently, his nickname is Izzy or isn’t he because they think he might be gay. Right. And Scotty goes on this whole homophobic rant, which is super annoying. And Scotty. 

Todd:  The thing hasn’t been back here in almost 

Clip:  an hour. And that doesn’t mean that it’s not still up there somewhere. And that doesn’t mean that it is. Hey, this isn’t about who can run the fastest. Okay? Or being a pussy. What is your problem? You tell me, Izzy or Izzy? Hey, check yourselves, both of you. Do I make you nervous? Thinking you’re gonna come on to me and every other swinging dick on this bus makes me nervous. 

Todd:  Alright. We already know Scottie’s a dick. Like, you gotta get these Todd different reasons why we need to know that he’s a dick. But then the demon’s face appears in the window and is looking in, and, this is kind of comical in a way. It’s pretty terrifying, but then it it stays, you know, and it’s not like your normal horror movie where the demon’s face appears, and then it’s gone, and maybe some people see and some people don’t. Nope. You all get a very good look at it, and he’s looking in and surveying the scene, and he crawls kind of up the side of the bus in a weird way, and everybody’s staring at him. And he’s on the roof, and they’re just trying to figure out what to do.   And then, he comes around the front and, hangs down upside down in the windshield. And this scene was, like, so weird. 

Craig:  It is weird, but I really like it. And it’s funny because, Salva wanted to cut this scene because he thought that it was too something. Goofy. He’s a little goofy. Well, that’s what he thought too, but he ended up leaving it in, and it ended up being one of the scenes that the audience responded the most Todd. And I like it too. It is kind of goofy, but it’s also kinda creepy. 

Todd:  Well and again, you wanna read into you know, it’s more of this here’s the demon kind of leering in at all of these guys, and he’s licking his lips, and, they’re all lined up in the center of the bus, down, the aisle sort of. It’s just kinda how they found themselves, and he smiles at them and kind of the way you’ve Todd at somebody and tell them to move aside. Uh-huh. He just does that. And so then the first kid kinda moves aside and sits down, then he looks over the next kid. He tells him to move aside and sit Todd, and it goes all the way back until it reaches the last kid. And then he kinda looks and nods and then disappears. 

Craig:  And he’s sniffing. Like, that’s the part that is is so creepy to me. Like, he’s, like, obviously, like, we’re, you know, he’s, like, he’s trying to smell them. And then of course exposition girl tells us later that he he, he can smell something in your fear that makes him want you. And so, what they figure out, how they would figure this out, I have no idea, except thank Todd, for exposition, girl. 

Todd:  She has like another dream, does it? She’s like, she collapses and has yet another dream here before she wakes up and tells them more. It’s right. 

Craig:  And it’s really funny, but that that second dream sequence is actually really cool. Like, I mean, as far as writing goes, it may not be the most clever way of doing things. But the way that the scene was shot was actually really neat, like, she ends up back on the Taggart farm, Jack Taggart, this the farm that we started out on. She’s standing there, and everything is running in reverse. Like, you see little Billy who is the one that got taken off, you see him kind of go across the screen in the background running in reverse, and the dog running in reverse behind. And then, it we see Derry, Justin Long from the first movie standing there, you know, just a little ways away from her, and he’s talking really fast and it’s backwards. It’s like it’s somebody has hit rewind and it’s going back really fast, but then it stops and he starts talking forward at normal speed. Again, he gives her all every little bit of information she would 

Todd:  possibly need to know. So that so that she could wake up and pass it on to everybody else. 

Craig:  Yeah. Again, it was explored in the first movie. In the first movie, the creeper, it finds their car and he sniffs Derry’s underwear. 

Todd:  Oh, man. God. 

Craig:  They did some dark stuff today. But anyway, so it was established early on, you know, he he picks people out, that he wants. And and then for probably the next 20 minutes or so, it kind of just becomes them trapped in the bus and the creeper terrorizing them for a while. And it’s scary. At some point, like, it rips open the top and pulls a kid out, but then one of the girls is able to take a javelin and, like, stab it through the head. 

Todd:  Yeah. I’m I’m not sure where the javelin came from on this bus full of football. 

Craig:  It was under the seat. 

Todd:  I know. Again, what of like, were they also the, I don’t know. What did did they do javelin in high school? Is this a thing? I don’t know. Sure. Do they do they bring Sure they do. Do they bring all of the athletic equipment with them on the bus? 

Craig:  It it rips open part of the Todd, so there’s this big hole in the bus, and it it grabs a kid. I don’t even remember if it kills the first kid. I don’t know. 1 of the girls stabs it through the head. And it’s a really good effects scene where the creeper is, like, trying to pull the javelin out of its head and he keeps, like, pushing it back and forth. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And it it looks cool. Like, it’s a good effects scene. And then he rips part of the top of his head off. Yeah. And and one of them sees that. And then it, like, it flies I guess straight up and then comes crashing right back down on the bus and all the windows of the bus shatter out. And it’s crashed down so hard that it split one of the seams in the top of the bus. So it’s kinda poking through just a little bit.   And one of the girls peeks up through the hole that it had made and said it looks like it’s dead, but of course, it’s not dead. Eventually, one of the, wings falls through that seam that it’s created. 

Todd:  And, also, apparently, all the doors are jammed too, so they can’t get out the back door. And so they have to go to the front past this wing that’s fallen down. Well, I thought this was a cool scene. It’s something unique, you know, that you don’t Yeah. I think a lot of things actually in this movie are pretty unique for what could be just a run of the mill people getting picked off 1 at a time. At least they’re having some fun with it. And there have to go under this wing, so they have to literally lift this wing up, you know, crawl under it 1 by 1. And, the last kid, I don’t even remember who he was, doesn’t make it.   The wing wraps around him and pulls off his head. Right? And his shirt. And his shirt. Good point. 

Craig:  So that when his body comes back into the the bus, it’s headless and flailing around like a chicken with the tag cut off, but Also got nice pecs. 

Todd:  Nice abs and pecs. Yeah. We’d be laughing just as hard if this were women, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. We would. We would it’s gratuitous either way. Right. 

Craig:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  And then on the roof, he tears off his own head and and replaces it. That what great FX, by the way. I thought Yeah. 

Craig:  Really good. 

Todd:  And, you know, that’s a you always have these these villains who can regenerate, right, or who can’t be killed and, oh, Jason gets stabbed and then, you know, pulls out the knife or whatnot. And sometimes they play with it by making huge wounds that, you know, somehow get healed or, you know, it’s not really clear. What I like about this movie, and it was in the first movie too, is that somebody has really taken time to anatomically figure out how this guy is going to regenerate himself each time. Mhmm. You know? And so it’s it’s almost like this head comes from within and and comes back up into place. It’s it’s really cool, but it’s from absorbing the other kid’s head. And so he uses these kids’ energy in their own bodies to regenerate himself and keep him going. That’s neat.   It’s a really cool effect. And it It is. It’s practical. It’s a practical effect. 

Craig:  Right. And it looks good. At this point, Scott gets the front door well, after he gets his new head, he flies away. The creeper flies away. And butthole Scott gets the door open, and then he goes off on this whole spiel about how there are 2 classes of people on this bus. We saw that it picked out certain people. And now I remember even from the first time that I watched this movie, you know, he goes off on this rant about how we saw who it picked out. Yes, Scott, you stupid dick.   We saw that it clearly picked you too. Like, that was one of the most obvious ones, but he wants to kick off the black kids. Yes. 

Todd:  Okay. Where did that logic come from? We’re not quite sure. 

Craig:  I don’t know. But somehow, you know, it’s a very dramatic scene and, like, his girlfriend stands up against him and they decide most of them decide that they’re gonna get off the bus and they’re gonna try to run for it. 

Todd:  It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. There’s nowhere to drive to. 

Craig:  They try to justify it. Like, supposedly, they’re right next to this little dirt Todd, and they’re like, that has to lead to a farm. Like, okay. Because I guess all dirt roads lead to a 

Todd:  farm. Farm. We live we’ve lived around many dirt roads and, you know, yeah, I guess eventually. It’s sort of 

Craig:  like falling like a river. 

Todd:  It will eventually Right. 

Craig:  You’ll be running for miles and miles and miles. Right? I can’t think what his name is. Double d is his nickname. Deac. One of the 

Todd:  Deac, Buckey, or Jake? 1 of the 3. 

Craig:  He’s yeah. I don’t know. He’s he’s the one that has the most tension with Scott. They they kinda get in a fight. And at this point, you know, this this guy, double d or whatever, this black guy is finally standing up to this dick, Scott. And I I liked it. I’m like, goodness. Finally, somebody put this asshole in his place.   But pretty much everybody gets off the bus. I feel like like one kid stays on and and closes the door after they all left. But then, you know, they’re stand they’re just standing outside the bus and basically arguing outside the bus. And then they we get this awesome shot of the creeper, like, silhouetted in front of the moon, and they’re like, 

Todd:  ah. Kids back on. Kids back on. You’re right. And they try 

Craig:  to run back into the bus, but the kid on the bus won’t let him back in. I don’t blame him. Yeah. 

Todd:  I would have left them out there too. Yeah. Dumbasses. 

Craig:  So they so they take off running, and one of them gets taken out with another one of the creepers, ninja Todd. And 

Todd:  Scotty gets pinned to a tree. Right? 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. 

Todd:  Is it with the stars? 

Craig:  No. It’s with a knife. The the creeper goes after double d, first, but he trips right at the perfect moment and the creeper doesn’t get him. But then, yeah, the creeper throws a knife and Scott goes through his arm and he gets pinned into a tree. 

Todd:  And then taken away. 

Craig:  Yeah. And ironically, this is writing at its finest. It’s Izzy, the one that he’s been a dick to about maybe being gay, his girlfriend who he’s gotten in a fight with, and Double D, the one who he has been a total dick to because he’s a racist. They are the 3 that Todd to try to help him. And double d pulls the knife out and and frees him, but, yeah, then then Scott gets taken away. He’s dead. 

Todd:  And we’re all totally fine with that at this point. Yeah. Like Totally. That’s one of the bad things about the writing in this film and and making a character so unlikable is that if he’s gonna go out so early on and I it’s not early on in the movie. Actually, the movie’s almost over. It’s late. Yeah. But but I imagined he would be part of kind of a final showdown.   Like, he would be the guy standing in the way of, you know, for whatever reason by his dickishness putting the the who who remained left in jeopardy. Yeah. It’s okay. 

Craig:  I was glad to see him go. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. We all we all 

Craig:  We all Bluff Alicia. 

Todd:  Well, Minx Minx finds a far the farmer. Right? This is when the farmer comes back in Yeah. Conveniently. And now it’s the kids and the farmer versus the demon, and the farmer has a much better tools at his disposal. 

Craig:  Yeah. He’s made a homemade harpoon out of a, like, a, like, a post driver. Yeah. It’s awesome. 

Todd:  It’s really cool, and it’s like he’s fishing. It’s what’s cool about it. It’s like he’s spearfishing through the sky, almost like a video game. You know, swiveling it on from the top of the of the truck, and he shoots at the demon and 

Craig:  It it is like a video game, and a video game that this guy is really freaking good at because every time he shoots this harpoon at him, he nails him, which is awesome. And the first time that he nails him, you know, the creeper flies off, but it’s like he’s a fish on the line. And, like, so he’s trying to get away. And, the truck is, like, getting pulled up, you know, from him trying to pull away. And somehow, I think I was riding, and I missed it. But somehow, he gets off the first line, and then Jack shoots him again through the windows of the bus so that this steel line is, like, through the window of the bus, and, it flips the bus over and, like, rips through the the ceiling of the bus. And, yes, then the creeper pulls out this harpoon, pulls it out of himself, and throws it into the truck. And you think for a second that he has killed Jack’s other son Mhmm.   Which would have been pretty devastating. Yeah. But as as it turns out, no. He’s just narrowly missed, like, Jack junior ducked, like, right at the right moment. And and he’s a little bit injured, but he’s okay. And and then we we cut back to the other kids who are are still in the field, and, Izzy, Izzy or isn’t he, has found has found a truck, that they saw earlier in the movie. You know, it’s it’s kind of clunky as far as writing goes, but and they they get it. It’s it’s fun.   Yeah. I’m glad they found this truck because it’s a good it’s a fun scene. They find this truck and it’s Izzy, Scott’s girlfriend, and double d. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And they’re gonna get in this truck, but then all of a sudden again, you see the shadow of the creepers circling around them. Izzy and the girl jump in the truck, but double d tries to get in the passenger side, but the passenger door doesn’t work. So he has to jump in the back, in the bed of the pickup truck. Yeah. And and so Izzy, you know, is speeding down this road, but the creeper is chasing them in the air, and poor double d in the back is just like screaming, like, go faster, go faster. And I just thought this was an awesome scene. Like, it was it was really tense and and really 

Todd:  scary. 

Craig:  Out, and she goes tumbling off into the field. And then he I don’t remember if he hits something or if he just slams on the brakes. But what happens is when he either hits something or slams on the brakes, the creeper goes flying through the cab of the truck. And then the truck totally flips over. And we see Izzy comes, you know, we see the destruction of the truck and it’s, you know, smoking upside down. Izzy comes crawling out of it so we know he’s okay. And then it cuts to double d and he his leg is broken. He he’s alive, but his leg is broken.   And he kinda starts to crawl, and he doesn’t get very far at all before he stumbles upon the wing of the creeper. But it’s the the chopped off, like, the creeper has lost his wing, and it’s just kinda it’s kinda like flopping there. 

Todd:  But Yeah. Then we get this hilarious seed where the the creeper the one winged creeper is trying to get trying to fly up off the ground. And I like 

Craig:  It is hilarious, but I still thought it was kinda scary. 

Todd:  Oh, I thought it was just totally hilarious. There’s so much humor peppered throughout this movie because it is so absurd, you know, that I like the fact that he keeps things funny and has these moments. And to me anyway, this seemed really funny where the he’s he’s he’s like, fly fly fly fly fly falls down. 

Craig:  Yeah. He’s like bounding towards it. Yeah. 

Todd:  Of a hopping, bounding thing with his one wing. 

Craig:  Uh-huh. And he and he eventually gets to him, and he’s, like, he he’s on top of it. The creeper is on top of double b. And the you know, this this kid, he’s a strong kid. He’s he’s holding them off, but just at the last minute, when you and there’s a cool effect where the creeper’s head, like, the back part of it kinda opens up like like a reptile, like one of those reptiles that, like, expands its face to scare off enemies or whatever. Mhmm. I was thinking 

Todd:  of the spitters from Jurassic Park. 

Craig:  Yep. Exactly. Exactly like that. And, at the very last second, somehow, Jack and the remaining kids who he’s rounded up were able to completely flip his truck back over. 

Todd:  We didn’t see that part. 

Craig:  And it’s fine. And he harpoons the creeper right through the head. And is And it it it flops over on its back. 

Todd:  Isn’t the knife that he had at the at the end of that harpoon? Yep. Yeah. Like, he’s good thing he saved that last harpoon, the one with the knife on it for what, you know, for that last shot. 

Craig:  And, so Jack comes the creeper’s on its back. It’s like it it kinda starts to try to pull out the the harpoon, but it’s like it can’t get it out. And it’s laying there like it’s in pain, and Jack senior takes another big harpoon staff and it just stabs it. Like, I think I read somewhere online that he stabs it like 35 times or something like that. Yeah. I mean, it it it’s intense. Like, he’s he’s going at it. And then it looks, we get a close-up of the creeper’s face, and it looks like he dies.   Like, it looks like we see his dying moment, but then his eyes pop back open, and he’s just looking at Jack, like, angrily or whatever. And then those the way that his head had kinda popped open before, though, that that same I don’t know how to describe it, but that same thing kind of comes around like a cocoon and, covers his face. And Minxie who’s been really helpful throughout the whole movie, exposition girl says, It’s not dead. It’ll be back in 23 years. And Jack’s like, well, it looks dead 

Todd:  to me. 

Craig:  And that’s the end of the movie proper, but then we get a little end cap. 

Todd:  That’s right. This was this was interesting. So then we get now some more kids flying down this the same road, I guess, in a truck, in a car, and, they pull into this place. And, like, oh, is this the place? Yeah. This is the place. And, they get out and they pay what turns out to be Jack’s son, his older son, some money, and they’ve got this sign in the back that’s like, see the thing, you know, for 

Craig:  Bat out of hell. Yeah. See the bat out of hell. 

Todd:  They walk in, and they’re in the barn. They’ve turned their barn, I guess, into this, like, attraction, and the creeper, the bat out of hell, is pinned up way up high in the rafters. It looks kind of mummified in a way, just like a big dusty decrepit thing. It’s been up there for 23 years, and sitting in a lawn chair right across from it, staring straight up at it with the gun in his hand is Jack. Like, he’s just waiting for it to come back to life again. 

Clip:  Todd it right through the heart with a big homemade harpoon.   When?   About 23 years ago. 

Craig:  You waiting for something? 

Clip:  About 3 more days. 

Craig:  And and that’s it. And that’s it. You know, and and it’s silly, and it’s funny. I’ve had a really good time laughing about this movie today. But the truth the truth of the matter is it’s not a bad movie. No. And I I and I don’t think that this is a bad franchise. You know? Like, both movies, I think, are well made, you know, as far as, you know, the acting is pretty good.   You know, some of the characters when I sat down to watch this movie and I saw that it was an hour and 45 minutes, I was like, Really? Like, shouldn’t this be an hour? Because what I, the way that I always think about this movie is teenagers trapped in a bus. Mhmm. And I was like, how can you you know, how long can you sustain that? But it it doesn’t feel slow, really. No. To me, it it moves pretty quickly, and I like it’s entertaining. It’s not the best movie you’ve ever seen. It’s not my favorite horror franchise, but I I like it. And, I I think that, they’re they’re relatively well made.   You know, the a third one is supposedly coming out. What I’ve read is that they’re planning to, like, surprise drop it in October sometime. It’s done. The movie’s made. 

Todd:  I read they’re gonna put it out for a single day in the theaters. And then and then, I guess, like, streaming or something. I don’t know. Probably. 

Craig:  I wanna see it. I I’m looking forward to it. Now, originally, what the well, okay. So originally, part 2 was supposed to be about Derry’s sister and the psychic from the first movie trying to hunt down the creeper and find Derry, and the kids on the school bus was supposed to be a subplot. And then for whatever reason, Victor Salva got more into the subplot, and he’s like, you know, let’s just let’s just focus on that. So that’s what they did. The original idea for part 3 was it was supposed to be 23 years later, and the the sister from the first movie was supposed to have her own teenage son named Derry after her brother, and it was about her protecting her kid from the creeper. Well, now they’ve changed it apparently Todd, a movie that takes place between part 1 and part 2, and they’re saving the whole dairy sister saves her younger kid for part 4.   So they are, I guess there are plans for this series to move forward, and I’m all for it, you know? And we’ve laughed and laughed, and I don’t wanna seem disrespectful to anybody who has been a victim of abuse. That’s not my intention at all. 

Todd:  For sure. 

Craig:  For sure. So so I understand why people have qualms, about this guy. I get it. But looking at his work, his art, that’s what I’m talking about. And and and I like these movies. And and so I I I look forward to the next one, and and if if it’s good, which I have a feeling based on the first two that it could very well be, and they keep moving forward with it, then then I’m all for it. 

Todd:  You know, it’s pretty interesting that you’d have a 14 year gap between the second and the third in the series. That’s pretty bold, you know, to come back 14 years later, and I’ll be interested to see if they have some new ideas with it because Yeah. But, you know, horror movies have franchises have gone on on much less. You know? Sure. It’s it’s it’s kind of like in a way Friday 13th. It’s better in many so many ways than the Friday 13th franchise. 

Craig:  More creative. Sure. 

Todd:  Yeah. And it’s a more interesting villain. He’s got more to him. He has a kind of a personality. You can’t really define it. And it and that might be something neat, you know, that they can explore in later ones is maybe putting a little more of a giving us a little more of a handle on this guy’s personality. I don’t know if this guy is ever going to be I’m I imagine there are hopes that he’ll kind of take his place in the pantheon of of of horror icons, you know, Freddy, Jason, Michael Myers kind of thing. I don’t know.   I don’t I don’t know if I really see it happening with this one, but maybe maybe it will. Maybe after the 3rd and 4th movies. Thank you again for listening to another episode and a special shout out to Adam and Megan for recommending this movie. Thank you so much. If you have any other films you’d like to recommend, check us out on Facebook and send us a message that way. Also, please be sure to share this podcast with your friends. You can find us on Google Play, on iTunes, Stitcher, anywhere else your favorite podcasts are listed. Until next week.   I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Tobe Hooper died a couple weeks ago at the age of 74. He left behind a crazy assortment of horror films, not the least of which was the infamous and groundbreaking The Texas Chainsaw Massacre. This is our tribute to his legacy.

Episode 96, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, Craig, it’s time to do another tribute episode. Am I right?

Craig: It seems like it’s just happening far too frequently lately, doesn’t it?

Todd: It sure does. Who did we have? Couple weeks ago, we had

Craig: No. No. Not no. Not Romero. Right?

Todd: We did Romero. Yep. We had Romero, before

Craig: And it’s just been a it’s just been a year since Wes Craven. We’re losing lots of people.

Todd: All kind of from the same era. We’re looking at, like, you know, the late seventies, Early eighties when these guys got their claim to fame, and, recently, we just found out that Tobe Hooper is now dead. At the ripe old age of 74, I believe.

Craig: I think so. Yeah.

Todd: Mhmm. Died, August 26th 2017. Died of natural causes. So at least that that’s pretty good and left 2 sons, behind. And, quite a body of work, not a huge body of work, but honestly, some of you know, he’s a ground what what can you say? He’s a trailblazer. True. Proke some serious ground. I had some hits, had some misses, but we are decided that the best way to pay tribute to Tobe Hooper, there’s really not nothing else more appropriate, than to review Texas Chainsaw Massacre from 1974.

Todd: I saw this movie pretty late in life. I think I probably picked it up. I might have been in high school. I I think I was in college, honestly, before I sat down and saw this. You know, this is one of those movies where you hear the title all the time. It’s parody. It’s kind of held up as How more exploitation can you get with a title like The Texas Chainsaw Massacre? Right. And, honestly, it’s funny because because even the film doesn’t quite do it justice.

Todd: I was talking to a guy, just the other day about our podcast, that I just met here in Beijing, And he was a filmmaker, and he pretty young pretty young guy. It’s funny because I’m we were talking about the the films we do when I mentioned we’re gonna be doing Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and he Yeah. He said, I don’t really go for the really gory the the the super gory films. I like the more cerebral ones. And I said, you know, I it’s I’m not saying it’s a cerebral film, but actually Texas Chainsaw Massacre is not as gory as you think it would be from the title. In fact, there’s almost no gore in it at all.

Craig: I know, and I was really surprised. I saw the movie later in life too, and I’ve really only actually watched it, Aside from watching it to record this, I’ve only seen it like twice, which I’m a rewatcher of movies, So I’m surprised that I’ve only really seen this a couple of times, but I was reading about it to prep for today and I was really Kind of shocked to find out that, Hooper intended this to be rated PG. Like, he wanted to keep, I know he wanted to keep as much of the gore and the violence, as, as subtle or implied or off screen as possible in the hopes that he would get a PG rating.

Todd: Oh my God. And

Craig: then of course he sent it off to the ratings board and they’re like X. And he had to do some trimming even to get it down to a bar. But you’re right. It’s a scary movie. It really is a scary movie, but as far as blood and gore, there’s some. It’s not like there’s not any. But when you compare it to The remakes and the sequels, the remake, the remake, the remake, especially, and the sequels of the remake, are very, very violent and very gory. And and by comparison, this one’s pretty tame, really.

Todd: It’s tame if with respect to, gallons of blood on screen. Right. But in its presentation, it really just goes to show that you don’t have to have gallons of blood on screen To have something pretty shocking and pretty gruesome, you know, your mind can fill in the blank blanks pretty quickly, and I’m pretty sure that’s what the MPAA Was going forward when they see this. Oh, yeah. This guy runs a chainsaw through a dude in a wheelchair. You don’t have to slick. You could still see it in shadow, and, Ed, you get the idea. And Right.

Craig: I know what I’m saying, which is actually I know exactly what you’re saying. Yeah. Absolutely.

Todd: I mean, he made this film for almost nothing. It was like a budget budget ranges anywhere between 60,000 to 300,000 depending on, you know, who you talk to. It sounds like it was more on the low end of that by the end of the day. And, it was only about $30 that he raised to make to shoot it. And then it was in the editing that it went over, and they had to raise a little more money. So, it it’s another sort of sad story on how A film had to make all these basically, make all these deals with the devil, to get this film made and distributed to the point where at the End of the day, even though it was super successful, the producers and the actors who worked for deferred payment, because they were pretty much unknown. And, again, they they were shooting us on a shoestring. The actors who were gonna get a percentage of the profits basically saw their percentage go down really, really low.

Todd: Even by the end of it, I think, its 1st theatrical run, they had $81100 to divide amongst all of them.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, like, it was a whole story, right? Like wasn’t one of the main producers, one of the main guys with the money, he was like, Like a mob boss or something, and they didn’t know that going in. But then it was the same guy who ended up getting in Trouble for Deep Throat, I think. And initially I think I read that the actors and the crew Each were paid about $400 or something like that for their work. Later on when it came out, like again, I don’t think Tobe Hooper or other people knew exactly who this guy was or what his connections were, where the money was coming from, but when it came out that he was this crime guy and he was exposed. I think there were lawsuits and I think eventually the actors and and crew ended up getting more money. Like, I wanna say like 125,000 a piece or something like that. Yeah.

Craig: I don’t know. It had kind

Todd: of a somewhat happy ending, in in that regard. Yeah. Because I think New Line picked it up, like, in the early eighties and Bought the rights to it and distributed it. And so everything beyond that, New Line was careful to give, a little more to the producers of the film. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. And it’s crazy too because when you see this movie and I have seen a lot of crap from the seventies.

Todd: It’s kind of something I like. Yeah. I I feel like Yeah. The 19 seventies, in particular, were just this golden age, I think, of a certain kind of filmmaking, of independent filmmaking, of just this balls out so experimental, everybody with a with a 16 millimeter camera and Connections to a mob boss Yeah. Was making some kind of movie. You’ve got the whole blaxploitation thing. You had the whole deep throat thing. Drive thru cinema was huge.

Todd: Grindhouse cinema, you know, was making money. And so all of these wild movies came out around this time, And they’re all interesting. I mean, honestly, like, even even the bad ones are are so fun to watch. And this movie, If it hadn’t been as well made as it was, it would have just been another one of those Schlock things that had played in the drive ins. I really honestly believe that Because you when you watch this, and again again, now watching with a real critical eye for this podcast, I was really struck At the camerawork, at the cinematography, at the acting for most of them Yeah. It really even though it’s a pretty Jlachi type, exploitation film at its core. It has some real craft behind it, and I sort of feel like that’s probably what saved it.

Craig: I don’t know. You know, to be honest, and and I know this is our tribute to Hooper, and and I I give him mad respect. I mean, He’s just, everybody just acknowledges that he was a groundbreaker, in horror cinema. I mean, There’s no denying that. But I really wasn’t all that excited about going back and watching this because I didn’t really particularly have very fond memories of I just remembered it kind of being okay. Watching it again, I appreciated it more. I think that I had appreciated it in the past, but You love these movies from the ’70s, and I do too. I really do, but there there are some of them, and I feel like this kind of falls in the same category as like Last house on the left and

Todd: I spit on your grave and

Craig: Yes. Yeah. And even the hills have eyes kind of. They’re very raw and very violent. And especially last house on the left, and I spit on your grave, they’re almost so violent and disturbing that they’re almost unpleasant to watch. For sure. And I think that, you know, those 2 especially deal with graphic rape, which always really bothers me, and this one doesn’t go there. But it’s got the same kind of Dark, gritty violence that almost feels so plausible that it’s difficult to watch.

Craig: But I did appreciate this one more this time around. You know? Like you said, watching it with a more critical eye, and and I actually enjoyed watching it. I I it wasn’t an unpleasant experience.

Todd: Let me try to put an adjective to what you’re trying to describe. Humorless.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Todd: You know, a lot of horror films, especially nowadays and even then, Try to tamper the violence and the gruesomeness with a little bit of humor. There’s a little bit of tongue in cheek about what’s going on, and a lot of the films from this era and the ones, You know, the 2 specifically, rattled off. Like you said, I think they’re unpleasant to watch because they lack any real sense of humor. This movie maybe has 1 or 2 spots where you could kind of find it. But in, otherwise, when you’re watching it, it’s just this dreadful, Terrible thing happening to people, and then it’s over. You know? And and, honestly, Craig, it’s kinda funny hearing that coming from you considering how much you how much, Well, I shouldn’t say love, but there are a lot you have a lot of really nice things, to say about your enjoyment of, you know, some of the torture porn films that we’ve Yeah. And I’m usually the guy who’s, like, I don’t really see a point to this. I found it unpleasant to watch.

Todd: What’s the difference between the earlier ones and, like, the more modern ones? Because I would say this is almost this is like torture porn really in in many ways.

Craig: I I suppose so. I I I think that With things like Saw and, Hostel, in those movies you’re almost glad to see the characters In peril, they’re not particularly likable characters, or they’re so stereotyped, and you know what’s coming you just don’t care. Again, like I feel like this one and others like it, these just kind of feel and some of them are super annoying. Like Franklin in this movie is one of the most annoying characters in cinema history, I suppose. But, for the most part, it just, There’s almost and and I feel like this is intentional because in the beginning, there’s this opening narration, that John Larroquette does, which is pretty iconic.

Clip: The film which you are about to see is an account of the tragedy which befell a group of 5 youths. In particular, Sally Hardesty And her invalid brother, Franklin. It is all the more tragic in that they were young. But had they lived very, very long lives, They could not have expected, nor would they have wished to see as much of the mad and macabre as they were to see that day. The events of that day were to lead to the discovery of one of the most bizarre crimes in the annals of American history, the Texas Chain Saw Massacre.

Craig: And so it’s almost got kind of a documentary feel to it. I mean, not in the sense that it’s shot like a documentary, but it It almost feels like something that could really happen. And of course as we know, you know, this is loosely based on, the story of Ed Guine, who killed a couple old people and was just a gross guy in general and was, you know, a grave robber and made, flesh suits and furniture out of bones and lamps out of flesh and stuff, so it’s loosely based on a real story. So these nightmarish things can happen, but there’s just something about The way, it’s different. In most movies, and I’m going out of sequence, I apologize. We’ll get to the plot in a second. But in most movies you’ve got a menacing villain who’s kind of stalking people around and people are frightened and running away and screaming. And In this movie it just feels more realistic that a guy just pops out and kills you.

Craig: Like boom. No. There’s no warning, there’s no build up, there’s no chase. It’s just like, Oh, I’m looking around and then all of a sudden I’m dead. And and and there’s some gritty realism to that that I think makes it a little scarier than than some of the more modern stuff that we see, which is gory and gross and and fun to watch, but there there is a difference. I don’t know if I can pinpoint what that difference is, but there is a difference.

Todd: I think what you said yeah. You’re right. You’re right. It’s a little more realistic. It’s a little more real life. And it’s worth saying because we’re paying tribute to him after all that Tobe Hooper started out as a documentary filmmaker. And so probably a lot of what makes this film what it is is due to his background. He spent most of his sixties, as a college professor and documentary filmmaker, and he stated that, making this film and attributing it to real life was in many ways his His cynicism at the time on TV news and real life.

Todd: And he just said, you know, you watch television, and there’s all this Terrible, horrible, stuff. They’re, you know, getting ratings by showing brains splattered across the road and stuff in of real life. And so he felt like by Saying that this was a true story was his commentary on that sort of thing. You know? And then, of course, you get into what is, you know, what is entertainment. Right? Why do we wanna watch this kind of thing?

Craig: Well, and maybe that’s why it resonated with me more yesterday when I watched it than it did when I watched it further. And again, like you, I was very much aware of it. How can you not be aware of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre? But, I just didn’t get around to seeing it until I was a young adult. Maybe that’s why it resonates more with me now because I feel like that’s the climate in which we live, at at least here in the United States. I don’t know what it’s Like in China, but you know, you don’t need to watch horror movies. You can just watch the news, like Yeah. And and it just seems like It’s 1 terrible nightmarish thing after another. And and that really is focused on a lot here, in the beginning.

Craig: In the beginning we get a lot of news footage. Like I said, it opens up with that narration from John Larocque. John Larocque went on to Be famous for his role in Night Court. And he’s a funny guy and he’s got a great voice. Kind of an iconic introduction. And I read that, John Larroquette, has said, now who knows if this is true or not, but he said that, his payment for doing this was a joint. Which which in the grand scheme of things, you know, for reading, you know, a minute of narration in the beginning, that’s, You know, not a bad amen, I guess. He he’s also said that, he’s never seen the movie.

Craig: I he said that in 2008. I don’t know. I and I doubt his truthfulness there, but Yeah. It’s it starts out with that, but then it goes into these news reports.

Clip: Grave robbing in Texas is this hour’s top news story. An informant led officers of the Muerto County Sheriff’s Department to a cemetery just outside the small rural Texas community of Mute early this morning. Officers there discovered what appeared to be a grisly work of art, the remains of a badly decomposed body wired to a large monument.

Craig: That’s kind of the impetus for the beginning of the story. It really doesn’t have much to do with the action of the story but, even after that When we meet these 5 young people who are traveling together in this van, we can hear the radio news. And everything that you hear is just horrible. It’s just disgusting. It’s all violence and murder and mayhem and, so I hadn’t read apparently what you read about his inspiration for doing this, but it makes perfect sense because we we hear so much of it in these opening scenes.

Todd: Yeah. And and I love it too that it opens up, after we see this corpse, impaled on there before we see the van pull up. It’s in the foreground is one of the most Texan things in the world, which is a dead armadillo by the side of the road. Yeah. And Tobe Hooper himself is From Texas. So, Austin, Texas, actually. So, yeah, I just thought that was holy having having lived in Texas for a good 6 years myself, self. You can’t go, you know, 2 miles down the road without seeing a dead armadillo by the side.

Todd: It’s so funny. Yeah. And then, and then, of course, the first thing person we’re introduced to is what you call the the worst character in the world, which I kinda have to agree. And some of it a lot of it has to do with his acting. But it’s a guy named Franklin. So they pull over by the side of the road, and this guy gets Wheeled out on a wheelchair out of the van. And he starts to take a leak into a can, which I’m not quite sure why if He’s right? He’s just been by the side of the road anyway. I don’t know if they’re gonna save it for later or something.

Todd: He falls forward, and his sister, Sally, comes running to the rescue. And so we have Sally. We have Franklin, A brother and sister, then there’s a guy, who’s driving the van named Jerry who reminds me of, Stu Disco Stu from The Simpsons.

Craig: Yeah. Or or Bob Ross with his hair. He’s got a great perm.

Todd: He this guy’s seventies through it. Between him and Sally’s white bell bottoms, this they’re seventies through and through. And then Pam and Kirk, boyfriend and girlfriend, they’re out. And, apparently, they’re out because of the news Yeah. Broadcast. They’re going to see if their grandfather was one of the people who was dug up in the cemetery that they’re hearing the news. And then also, I guess, to just sort of visit the old family house with their friends. It’s a little vague kinda why they Yeah.

Todd: But it’s sort of like a big road trip.

Craig: Jerry kind of I mean, he seems very, I don’t know, nondescript, in the beginning. But

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: Later on, he kind of picks on Franklin, which I might too. The kid is, he’s just so annoyed. Like he’s in a wheelchair so I guess you’re supposed to kind of feel sorry for him, I guess. But and there, it seems like Sally kinda looks out for him or whatever, but he’s just so annoying. Like, his voice is annoying. Yes. I don’t believe that he’s supposed to be mentally challenged. He just seems like Probably because of his physical disability, he’s been coddled all of his life, and so he’s whiny and, gosh.

Craig: I would guess I don’t know. They’re supposed to be, what, in their early twenties?

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: But he acts he acts like he’s about 9. Like, ugh. He’s just so obnoxious. That’s your slaughterhouse. That’s where grandpa used to sell his cattle. Hey. We got an uncle that works at one of Places outside of Fort Worth. Hey.

Craig: You see those buildings there? That’s where they kill them. They bash them in the head with a big sledgehammer. Oh, that’s awful. It usually wouldn’t kill them on the 1st leg. I mean, it starts squealing and freaking out and everything, then they have to come up and bash you 2 or 3 times. And then sometimes it wouldn’t kill them. I mean, they had skin on sometimes even before they were

Todd: eating them. That’s horrible. People shouldn’t kill animals for food.

Craig: Well, they don’t do it like that anymore. Now they got this big air gun that shoots a bolt into their skull and then retracts. It’s just booms. Just boom.

Todd: If Benjamin, if I like me, please take your project. And and then they decide to pick up a hitchhiker. You know, there are just parts of this movie that I just don’t get. And Franklin is one of them, and I just chalked that up almost to bad acting.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Todd: So annoying. And this hitchhiker’s another one. And before they pick him up, one of them says, g g, I don’t know. This guy looks a little weird. Yeah. But then they get him in this van, and they’re driving down the road. And this guy just gets is weirder and weirder. But the fact that they, As the scene progresses, they don’t really show any more than, like, bizarre fascination and then repulsion on their on their part before finally, they kick him out of the van.

Todd: It just seems like it goes on a little too long and goes a little too far before these these folks get the idea that don’t really need to be in the same van with this guy.

Craig: Right. You know? But yeah. But and okay. Alright. So the seventies were a very different time, you know, like, you know, we had just come off the 60s where it was all, you know, love the one you’re with and peace and all that stuff where, And, and hitchhiking was a thing. People did that and, and people picked up hitchhikers. But you’re right. Like one of them, it’s Pam who says, I don’t know, he looks really weird.

Craig: Let’s not pick him up, but they do anyway. And then he is just so bizarre, but I feel like that’s one of the things that makes this movie scary and so unsettling. Like they don’t know who they’re picking up. This could be anybody. And then he gets in and he’s just a total weirdo. I mean, first of all, he looked weird. I mean, he’s got like scabs on his face. He’s got a big mark on on his face by one of his eyes that I I I couldn’t tell if it was a birth mark or if it was supposed to be a a scar, a burn scar or something, but just his appearance is unsettling.

Craig: And then he’s he’s he’s like a kid with ADHD. Like, he’s he’s jumpy and he’s giggly and he he Hawk’s weird and Franklin has a knife that he’s playing with and the hitchhiker takes it and just cuts a big gash in his hand And and everybody’s like, oh, ah, but then they’re kind of over it. Like Yeah. That was like, that was weird. He’s bleeding

Todd: all over self. And I’m like, oh, what? And he just hands the knife back to to to Franklin who just kinda holds it Stares with a knife like,

Craig: oh, man. Hey. You you can take me to my house. I I live right off this road. Well, I

Todd: I don’t know, Man, we’re in pretty much in a hurry. How close is

Craig: it? It’s real close.

Todd: Well, couldn’t you just Well, I mean, David some clubs.

Craig: You you you can have dinner with us. You like it? She’s my brother makes it Real good. You like it?

Todd: I think we better push on, man.

Craig: He’s got this camera that he wears around his neck, and he shows them some pictures he’s taken at the slaughterhouse. And then he takes a picture of Franklin, and hands it to, it’s a Polaroid camera, I guess, old timey camera. And, he gives the picture to Franklin, and Franklin’s like, Oh, it didn’t turn out very well. And he’s like, Well, you can pay, it’s a good picture, you can pay me now $2, $2 for the picture. But, Franklin won’t pay him, and so he takes the picture and, like, sprinkles some gunpowder on it and burns it up. And of course, they all freak out about that too. And then he whips a razor blade, a straight razor, out of his sock and slices Franklin’s arm with it, which I guess is finally the last straw. They pull over the van and kick him out.

Craig: But even after that, like They just wrap up Franklin’s arm and they’re like, man, that was weird. Like, what? And they don’t even Talk about going to a hospital or a doctor or anything. They’re like, keep on trucking or find a gas Station. Yep.

Todd: So they do. They pull over this gas station. I thought this was kinda cool. If you notice in the background of the sign on the gas station, It says, we slaughter, on the the left side of the sign, but then barbecue, you know, over on the right.

Craig: I didn’t notice that, but it’s funny.

Todd: And they pull over. And this is, you would say it’s maybe that old trope of the in fact, I wonder if this is where it came from. I don’t know. The old trope of pulling over at the gas station and the kids saying where they’re going, oh, we’re going to see the old Franklin House. And not only does this gas station not have any gas, but this guy seems very intent on telling them, you know, you don’t wanna go out there. You you the girls don’t wanna go out there. I got some barbecue in here. You should just stay and get some barbecue.

Todd: You know,

Craig: people own that house. Franklin says, well, actually, you know, my father owns that house. He’s like, oh, well. He’s like, People around these parts don’t take much to people snooping around their property. Yeah. I I think that you’re right, that maybe this trope comes from here. I don’t know, it may have come from somewhere else, but we’ve definitely seen it play out millions of times in horror movies since then. I mean, it it reminds me so much of that scene from Cabin in the Woods where it’s the exact same thing.

Craig: I mean, they’re they’re parodying it in Cabin in the Woods, but it’s the exact same thing. A bunch of 20 somethings pull up in a van to a gas station, and the gas station attendant says, oh, you don’t wanna go up that way. You know, like, We’ve we’ve we’ve seen it so many times at this point that it’s almost funny. It was probably a little more fresh 1974.

Todd: True. But but to go kind of on your earlier point, there’s really not a lot made of it. It’s not like since your music kicks in. It’s not like, you know, he he he just says it a few times. It’s kind of a suggestion, but he doesn’t really linger and try to keep them or whatever. You know? He just kinda leaves. And so this is a character who I’d say, 10 minutes from now, you’ve kinda forgotten about him. You you think you’re never gonna see this guy again.

Todd: So You know

Craig: But what’s what’s interesting about this one to me and what I had forgotten, you know, because I’ve seen the remake, and the remake’s pretty loose. I mean, they they they take some things from the original, but pretty loose remake. But, I remembered even from having seen this before that this guy from the gas station, Spoilers, spoilers if you don’t wanna, he ends up being one of the bad guys from this bad family. But I thought that this was interesting and that it really seemed like he was legit trying to avoid what eventually happens. Like, he really he was really trying to warn them, move along. You know? Don’t linger here. He wants.

Todd: I mean, for real. I don’t think he wanted it, you know, to kinda to go down. What what ends up going down? I mean, there’s there are cues to that later anyway that That, this family really probably just more more wants to be left alone, but these kids kinda got in the way a little bit.

Craig: Right.

Todd: By the way, before we pass over by Completely the hitchhiker. Of all of the people in these fill in this film who went on to do almost nothing, except for Marilyn, The, the lead actress did did a few things. The the hitchhiker guy, Edwin Neal, apparently, found a niche in the nineties Doing voice work for some video and also for video games.

Craig: I didn’t know that.

Todd: Isn’t that crazy?

Craig: I I kind of yeah. What I do know about him is that, You know I I I saw this suggested, several times in the stuff that I was reading, but I never saw anything explicit about it. Some of the actors and crew were not happy with Tobe Hooper and were not happy with the way that they were treated during the shooting of this. And Edwin Neal was one of those. He said that his experience filming this movie was worse than his experience in combat in Vietnam. And he, yeah. And he said it at one point that he hoped he never saw Toby Hooper again because he would kill him if he did. I don’t know if they ever did see each other again, but, yeah.

Craig: And you say that none of these people And you’re right. You know, most of these people were unknowns. They didn’t go on to do a lot. Several of them, including, Marilyn Burns, Sally, and and I think Edwin Neal too, I I don’t remember exactly, but they’ve made cameos in some of the sequels and and remakes and things. Gunnar Hansen though, Leatherface, he’s been still relatively prominent, especially in in the horror industry. But yeah, most of them were unknowns at the time and really didn’t go on to do much more. But I don’t know. Again, you know, Tobe Hooper, this is your tribute.

Craig: I’m not trying to disparage you in any way, but I I would be interested to read more about why some of These people had such a negative experience. I mean, I know that they, because they had such a limited budget, they were working 16 hour days, 7 days a week in the summer in Texas. So it was like a 100 plus degree weather, every day and, And they were doing this solid for like 4 weeks. And things got really unpleasant just because of the heat, you know, there, you’ve got all this, In certain scenes, you’ve got, you know, raw rotting meat in the summer heat. Gunnar Hansen, who plays Leatherface and, Sally, Marilyn Burns, they couldn’t afford to be constantly remaking their their costumes. So they had to wear the same thing Throughout, you know, long periods of time in the heat, they stank. And, you know, like it was so bad. It was so bad in some scenes, that Crew members were barfing and passing out because of the stench.

Craig: So I can imagine to some extent why it may have been, unpleasant. But, I feel like there’s there’s history there that would be very interesting, but I don’t know, that I’m unaware of at this You

Todd: know, maybe we’ll we’ll hear more of it now that he’s gone. You know? Because Maybe. It’s interesting because, coincidentally, not not I fairly shortly before he died, there’s always been this rumor that Tobe Hooper didn’t really direct Poltergeist. It was mostly Steven Spielberg. And it was shoot. Just just less than a month ago, I think, that, there a few of the actors from Poltergeist spoke out for the first time it said, yeah. Absolutely. Steven Spielberg was on the set the whole time, and Tobe Hooper was there.

Todd: And the way they said, they said he was a nice guy. He all he was he was cool. He always gave good suggestions and things like that, but it was really Spielberg running the show. So you got this impression at least from what they said was, yeah. He was a pretty chill dude who just sat there and smiled the whole time. So to hear that he was terrible on this set, you know, seems like a complete 180, but who knows? You know?

Craig: Who knows?

Todd: So, they leave there, and they go up to the old house and explore it, basically. So, Sally goes upstairs with some of the people. I mean, this house is nothing. It’s just some walls, and it’s completely overgrown with green. And but, like, they’ve gone up, and they’re gallivanting around this house laughing and goofing off. And, apparently, they’ve just left Frank went in the van. Yeah.

Craig: And he’s he’s fascinated by okay. The when the hitchhiker, When they kicked him out, he smeared some of his blood on the van, and Franklin is convinced that, like, he has marked the van so he can find them later, and so he’s fascinated by that. But then they leave him and humorless, you said before, you know, I understand what you mean, but there is a little bit. It’s laughing at Franklin’s expense, really, I mean, he’s so annoying. And then he’s trying to wheel himself into the house and he’s like, He’s like grunting and he’s screaming for Sally, and like he can’t get himself over this debris and like into the house. And then when he finally gets in the house, he throws a tantrum like a blanket.

Todd: Come on, Franklin. It’s gonna be a fun trip. If I have any more fun today, I don’t think I’m gonna be able to take it.

Craig: It’s a little bit bizarre, frankly, but

Todd: Kind of an embarrassing scene, I think. Honestly, like, if I had been the director, I would’ve been like, alright. We’re not we’re not doing this. You know?

Craig: Or or yeah. Like, Good try, buddy. That will end up on the cutting room floor for sure.

Todd: But he does see something ominous. He sees a pillow with a bunch of Crazy bones in it. It’s some feathers. Something that was obviously put there. But before he can really say anything about it, Pam and Kirk decided to go to the swimming hole that, Franklin apparently earlier on had told them was down down the way from the house.

Craig: It’s just there’s a path off behind those old 2 sheds down there.

Todd: Exactly. So they go down the path, and the swimming hole’s Completely dried up. But, down there near the swimming hole, they see another house just a little ways beyond, and he’s thinking Because, Jerry is pretty worried, I guess, as the driver that they’re gonna run out of gas. He said it a few times. So, he thinks maybe if they can go down there, and he’s like, I can leave my guitar with them as, like, collateral. You know? He’s got this all worked out. And, as he’s walking up to this place, it’s really just a there’s a big Shed out there. There’s, some things that should look pretty ominous.

Craig: Now if I’ve learned anything from horror movies, If you stumble onto a property and there’s a whole bunch of old cars on the property, get the hell out of there. Yeah.

Todd: Especially if they’re covered with camouflage. There’s big camouflage netting all over. Nobody wants anybody to know these old cars are here. But, of course, you know, the Same people who are throwing camouflage netting over these old cars are cheerfully, hanging up mobiles of creepy things Dangling just outside. Right?

Craig: Right. Right. One thing that I really appreciated about this movie, you and I are terrible Ramblers, you know, we can stretch things out for days. But the truth is this, this, everything happens so quickly like It just moves like, oh, we go to the old swimming hole. Oh, it’s dry. Oh, look, here’s the new house. And, and they, they knock on the door and Keith, you know, nobody answers. So, Keith goes in while, Pam goes out and sits on a porch swing, which is not on the porch, it’s out in the yard.

Craig: And He goes in and he’s like, Hello, hello, is anybody here? Boom, out steps Leatherface, nails him in the head with a sledgehammer, He’s down on the ground, convulsing, and, and then he gets another smack to the head with the sledgehammer And he’s done. You know, you get this iconic scene of this like big metal door slamming, as Leatherface takes him into his lair or whatever. And then immediately, Pam goes up to the house and is like, Kirk, where are you? Blah blah blah. And she goes in and, she stumbles into a room full of bones and again more of this morbid You know, kind of bone sculpture kind of stuff. A lot of it is clearly, human remains. And she barfs and, she runs out of that room, Leatherface appears, and again, I think it’s one of the more iconic images from the movie. She tries to run out the front door, but he grabs her around the waist from behind and just picks her up and pulls her kicking and screaming back into the house, and then hangs her up on a meat hook and proceeds to carve up Kirk right in front of her. And all of this happens in like 4 to 5 minutes.

Craig: Like, it’s just so fast. It’s so fast paced. And I appreciate that, and I think that it works really well, and it adds to the tension and the fear that these things aren’t drawn out. I mean, it’s just boom, boom, boom right in a row with all this violence.

Todd: It’s an interesting juxtaposition, Really, of pacing because when Pam stumbles into that room, into a pile of chicken feathers on the floor and it’s freaking out and staring around, The movie takes a good 2 minutes at least to linger around that room and show you close ups of this and close ups of That. They show you the bone sofa. They show you that bones hanging up. They show you this crazy little altar thing that looks like it’s made out of bones. Then every now and then, they’re showing the chicken in the cage, you know, Walking at them.

Craig: It Uh-huh.

Todd: It takes its time really showing you and lingering on all of these things. But then, like you say, The brutal horrible things that happen to the people just happen so quickly then they’re over. It it’s part of what makes it so shocking is because, I think is that juxtaposition. That pacing throws you off. You know, what we described sounds horrific, and it comes across as terribly horrific. There’s almost no gore. Right. What’s horrible about it is not just what’s happening, but how matter of fact it is.

Todd: There’s a very Dispassionate camera at work here.

Craig: Well, and I I think that it is. I mean, it says something and again, I’ve said this a 1000000 times. You know so much more about cinematography than I do. But from my limited perspective, it it’s kind of like a documentary in a sense that it lingers on things, like it’s showing us details, But it also feels very nightmarish in that it’s very focused on individual images. Like Let’s take a few seconds to linger on this, isn’t this scary? Let’s take a few seconds to linger on this. And it does intense close ups on the actors’ faces and eyes, especially. It’s nightmarish. It feels like a nightmare.

Craig: It feels like you feel often in a nightmare where certain imagery or at least, you know, you you you wake up and you have those flashes of those scary and intense moments. And I feel like Hooper captured that well in in his direction.

Todd: Yeah. And a thing that I guess he captured well too and what Gunnar Hansen in his acting did very well is the fact that Leatherface seems like he is a guy working in a slaughterhouse just doing a job. Yeah. You know? He just does all this without like, he’s done it a 1000000 times and, like, it’s part of his day. And, again, it’s not like the camera zooms in on his face or really makes a dramatic big deal about it. He doesn’t make these dramatic entrances. They’re not these Moments where they’re creeping around this quiet house, and you’re just waiting for the jump scare. It just these guys wandered into the room.

Todd: He was there. He whacks them. It’s pretty much over, and then he does what he what he does with the cows, you know, hangs 1 up on a meat hook, except this one’s alive, And she gets to watch as her boyfriend gets, gets carved up in front of her.

Craig: Well, and we kinda we kinda touched on this earlier by saying, you know, the gas station guy kinda seems like He was trying to avoid this, but that’s what makes Leatherface in this movie. Now there, there are so many Texas Chainsaw movies at this point and and they really have gone all over the place in terms of tone and and violence and all that stuff, but in this movie It really just seems like these people stumbled into his lair. He doesn’t have an agenda. You know, like, he’s not out intentionally Stalking and murdering people, you know, there’s no vendetta or anything. It’s just these people were stupid enough to intrude into his space and so He killed them. You know? Like Exactly. Like, if they would’ve just gone away, you know, like, if if When nobody answered the door, if they had just gone away and not, you know, gone into his house, they probably would have been fine. And and I think that makes him interesting as a villain he’s also interesting, you know, I read that gunnerhansen And really wanted to get into the character of of this guy and he decided through his character study that this was somebody who was mentally handicapped and had not had the opportunity to ever be socialized.

Craig: He was never sent School, he was never you know, even, you know, in a school for for people with special needs, he never had, that kind of opportunity. And so his development was just stunted, and he just all he knew was what he knew from his own environment, which included the slaughterhouse. And he tried to, you know, portray that, that he was somebody who was challenged mentally. And and you can see it, and I feel like you see it more in this iteration than in any other. His his his voice It’s high pitched and almost childlike. Yeah. I guess in the script that he he it was scripted that he had lines, but it was just mumbles and incoherent, and then it would also have next to that what he was trying to say so that Gunnar Hansen knew what he was trying to say, But it comes out as totally incoherent to us, the audience, and maybe partially coherent to The other men that he lives with because he’s lived with them for so long, but there’s there’s almost a childlike quality to him. And, you know, he’s the big one.

Craig: He’s the tough one, but he cowers to the other guys Yeah. In his family in a very childlike way. Again, I read this I don’t know how accurate this was but, I I guess that critics and even proponents or or advocates for the mentally challenged or disabled have said that he actually did a pretty good job of of portraying somebody with those kinds of challenges. Now, you know, to an extent, I mean, it’s a horror movie. He’s a villain, but, at at at the very least, It’s interesting, and it’s it’s it’s cool to know that he really put thought into it. His, acting is is pretty good.

Todd: I think another thing, like a lot of these kind of movies, the actors wouldn’t have gone to those lengths and wouldn’t have put so much thought into their characters as, as he did, you know, which Right. Was another reason why it sets us apart a little bit.

Craig: Well and it just goes to show. You know? It this was shot on a very low budget, and they all went in knowing that. They all knew that this was not gonna be something that was necessarily gonna be personally profitable for them, but they put their heart and soul into it. And maybe that’s What made it so good? I don’t know. But from this point and up to this point, you know, the movie is fast paced in general. The the first, I don’t know, 15 minutes maybe drag a little bit, but not so much that you’re bored necessarily. But then once once we get, you know, these first kills, It moves super fast Jerry goes off to find the other 2 who had already gone. He ends up at the house Same thing.

Craig: He goes in the house and and finds kind of the slaughter room. Something is rumbling in the freezer and he opens it up and there’s Pam in the freezer and then boom. Here’s Leatherface, another another, sledgehammer to the head for another one of these characters, and he’s done. That’s it. We cut back to, Sally and and Franklin at

Todd: Franklin who have endless patients.

Craig: Well, they’re getting, they’re getting nervous and scared, and Franklin wants to leave. He wants to go get help, But they they realize that they don’t have the keys, somebody else has the keys, so they have to go looking, which this is just Kind of ridiculous. I mean, it doesn’t make any sense that she would be able to push his wheelchair through the terrain that we have seen other people go through, but they do. I mean, they don’t have any other voice. So they go and then they’re walking through the forest and then

Todd: Right in front of them.

Craig: Franklin just gets Sliced right down the middle. But again, like you said, we see it from behind Franklin and it’s very dark and it’s in the forest. So we don’t actually see a lot of gore, But we definitely can paint the picture in our own mind of what is happening here. And Sally runs off screaming. And then this is one of the things that put me off of this movie the first couple times I watched it. It didn’t bother me so much this time around, But the next 15 minutes is just this girl running around screaming like a howler monkey. Like and I I feel for this actress Because her 4th throat must have just

Todd: been destroyed because she

Craig: is literally just screaming and screaming. And and they run through the forest, and he’s Chasing her and, you know, I read no matter how quickly she ran, Governor Hanson was always faster than her, so he had to try to do things to try to make it believable that he couldn’t catch up with her. So he’s, like, sawing through is in the forest. Waving the chainsaw around, and they’re running and running and running. And they get to the house, and She goes up the stairs and she finds what appears to be 2 old corpses, and she finds all these bones and things, and then Leatherface is right behind her, so she jumps out of a 2 story window, and then they he chases her back through the forest, and they end up back at the gas station. And this, you know, I’ve already spoiled it. The gas station manager is one of them. But I felt like this was Probably one of the more unsettling scenes for me.

Craig: Did you feel the same way?

Todd: Oh, absolutely. And I remember that when I first saw this. I really wasn’t expecting him to, I was expecting him to get it. You know? I wasn’t expecting him to be one of them.

Craig: Right. Right.

Todd: And she’s like, we have to call the we have to call the cops. He says, well, there’s no phone here, but there’s a phone in the nearby town. I’ll go get the truck. And he leaves, and she just sits there. And, Again, this is one of those scenes that’s just like the other girl stumbling into the bone room. And she’s sitting here in this gas station, and she sees the oven with the meat hanging in there. And it just lingers over this barbecue, which is the last thing she wants to see after she saw her brother getting cut up. But then he comes back in, and he has a rope and he has a bag, and he’s smiling.

Todd: Yeah. It gets Pretty brutal here. This guy’s a real jerk and, seems to take real delight in torturing people. And so, he there’s just a very uncomfortable scene where he wrestles her down, hits her a few times, ties her up, Puts this bag overhead, drags him into his car truck. Oh, and then he runs back in because he forgot to turn off the lights. So yeah. Yeah. Does And then as he says Well, and

Craig: Go ahead. Well, I feel like you were gonna maybe say the same thing that I was gonna say. Part of what makes it so unsettling is that he talks to her in kind of a gentle manner. Like he’s trying to comfort her and, like, he’s got her in this sack down in the floorboard of the passenger side of his truck. And he’s like, Are you okay down there? Are you feeling okay? Meanwhile, he’s jabbing her with a big stick and enjoying it. Like, it’s just a a weird juxtaposition of the way that he talks to her, and then the fact that he’s also tormenting her physically at the same Time. I mean, he’s he’s he’s messed up. You know? He’s obviously part of this messed up family, and they’re all messed up.

Todd: And then he pulls in, to the the house again. And on the way in, there’s our hitchhiker again, his headlights, he runs out, and he says

Craig: I told you, and I told you I told you never to leave your Run her, mom, you little bit. Get at her and get that girl out of

Clip: the car.

Craig: Get out get her out of the car. Get her out of the car.

Todd: Then there’s This whole scene, I think, is probably what most people remember the most about this movie. Yeah. And I and from what I remember reading It’s the part that drove all these actors to pretty much wanna Toby Hooper’s head on a platter in front of them.

Craig: Yeah.

Todd: She wakes up. It’s in this dining room of this house, and sitting around the table are the hitchhiker, Leatherface, the guy from the gas station and the corpse from upstairs.

Craig: Right. Who turns out not to be a corpse. He looks like a corpse.

Clip: Oh my gosh.

Craig: And it’s it’s so gross. He looks he it’s disgusting. And one of the first things that happens is the hitchhiker and Leatherface restrain her, and one of them cuts her finger and puts it in the corpse’s mouth, and the corpse starts sucking on her finger. And again, we get these intense close ups of her eyes. And she’s been screaming, screaming, screaming, and then this happens, and she’s so horrified that she falls silent, and we just see the terror in in the close-up in our eye.

Todd: It’s so offensive. It’s so offensive.

Craig: Yeah. And and Part of the reason that this ended up being so torturous is because I read that the guy who played Grandpa, When they did his makeup, it took, like, 5 or more hours or something to do that. And he said, I’m not doing this again. I’m not going this again, so you better film everything that you want of me now. And again, you know I’m reading all this stuff online. I can’t verify its truth, but What I read was that they ended up shooting for like 36 hours straight just so that they could get this this Most of it was this scene. It’s an intense scene, and it’s a lot of her screaming and them mocking her, you know? And that’s like, She she wakes up and she immediately starts screaming, and they immediately start mocking her. Like, they’re like, they scream, and then they howl like dogs, and they’re laughing at her.

Craig: And there’s some weird, dynamics going on between these guys. Like it seems like the gas station guy is kind of the patriarch, aside from grandpa who’s basically a corpse, he’s kind of the patriarch and he’s in charge, But he also doesn’t like doing the dirty work. And so the hitchhiker kind of gives him some crap for that saying, Oh, he talks big, but he’s really just the cook. And and the old guy says, Yeah. I just can’t take no pleasure in killing. But but it’s obvious that they’re they’re going to kill her. And the scene goes on for a little while, and it’s very tense. Basically, what it ends up is yes, we are going to kill you.

Craig: Here’s how it’s gonna happen. It’ll be fast. Don’t worry about it. But but then the the I think it’s the hitchhiker says, let’s let grandpa do this one. He was the he was the best killer of them all. And so they she’s been tied up to a chair. The hitchhiker unties her and takes her and holds her over a metal tub. And Leatherface is trying to give grandpa the sledgehammer, but grandpa, being a corpse, doesn’t have the strength to hold it.

Craig: And so, like, he keeps trying to hit her, and he misses several times. And then he starts actually hitting her, but just like

Todd: Like a glancing blows.

Craig: Right. Right. Like, the sledgehammer is just kind of dropping on her head, which, of course, would Hurt terribly, but it’s not enough to knock her out or to kill her.

Todd: And, apparently, they used a real hammer for some of these.

Craig: Oh my god.

Todd: And and and so, like, yeah, maybe that’s where this hatred for Hooper came in. I read even the The earlier scene with the guy in the, in the chair when I guess when they shot it, even though I didn’t see anything, it was Seem to all be in shadow to me. Apparently, when they shot it, you know, they he was swinging a real chainsaw within, like, 3 inches of this guy’s Oh my god. This guy’s face. Yeah. It also gets kinda wackadoodle too. Like, he really throws in this almost psychedelic shots where the music and sound effects just go all over the place. It’s it’s like audio chaos of bongs and bangs and timpanies and things.

Todd: And, visually, it gets that way too. We get, like, all kinds of close ups and medium shots and extreme close ups and stuff on her eyes and these different angles, and it just kinda flips out, you know, visually to portray, I think, her own panic and and terror in here, and I think it’s pretty effective. Although at times, it gets a little a little too artsy.

Craig: Yeah. I I guess. I I I understand what you’re saying, but I actually did find this to be very effective. You know, it it kind of puts you in her shoes a little bit where She’s so panicked and so scared that things are very fragmented, and, yeah, I I thought it worked well. I liked it.

Todd: Well, then, the way that she escapes is just in the chaos of this whole all this this trying to hit her in the head with a hammer. Somehow, I guess her bonds get free, and, she jumps up and is able to run away. And she jumps out a window and comes out into daylight

Craig: Mhmm.

Todd: Which I took it’s it’s kind of shocking, actually, because you imagine it’s night. That’s That’s what you’re getting here. But we’ve seen a whole cycle from from night, today again. They’re very he’s very deliberate about that too. We get to have shots of the sun as it goes down, the different shots of the moon as the movie goes. I almost interpreted this as a kind of waking up from the nightmare. I’m kinda Mhmm. Where suddenly, the scene changes so much kind of like in a dream where you can be dreaming about 1 thing, and then suddenly the scene just completely changes.

Todd: Seems to be what happens to her. And now she’s out running down the road, and, the hitchhiker chases after her, In a very satisfying moment, they end up on the road, and he’s chasing her down the road, and there’s a big truck coming down, a big semi, And it takes him out, pretty brutally. I mean, I don’t know if you expected that to fly on a PG movie or not. But,

Craig: you see, shots from this movie, scenes from this movie in clips a lot if you’re watching anything about horror. And this is one of the ones you see of Leatherface chasing her down the road and a semi pulls over and the driver jumps out and helps her into the cab of his truck. Leatherface is right there, and he’s, like, got, he’s going at the door with this chainsaw, so they both jump out passenger side and start running. I kinda had forgotten this. I kind of felt like she got rescued and that was it, but the 2 of them, the driver and she go off running, And then this happened so quickly. I feel like I may have even missed something. Does the driver just turn around and punch Leatherface? No. Is that what He picks up do?

Todd: He picks up a wrench, and he turns around, and he chucks it at him and hits him in the head with it.

Craig: Okay. I think I must have been writing because I I think I missed that. So Leatherface falls over backwards and, that he he drops the chainsaw so that it it cuts into his own leg. But then he gets up and runs off, or or or continues to chase them. And here’s something else that I think that I missed, because this pickup truck Flies by, but sees what’s going on and slams on the brakes and kinda does a 180 in the road. And she jumps in the back of the pickup, and it’s like the pick the driver can’t get it started again, but at the last minute, he does get it start get it started, takes off down the road, And we see her screaming and kind of maniacally laughing in the back as she drives away, and Leatherface in his frustration just Stands in the highway and swings around, the the chainsaw. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig: Swinging around the chainsaw. And then it cuts to black, and that’s the end. And and it’s kinda you know, it’s fairly iconic as as far as scenes go. But what happened to the other truck driver? Did we see what happened there?

Todd: No. I guess I guess he just Stood there and watched it all, or maybe he got back in his truck and took off or something?

Craig: I didn’t remember that at all, but and I was you know, as she was, I’m glad that she’s being rescued, but I’m like, wait. What happened to that other guy?

Todd: Well, It’s just it’s so sudden, and I remember thinking this too when I watched this movie the first time, like, wow. This is it. It I mean, It again, just like everything else, it all happens quite fast. And, again, I I have to say much like what you said about this movie from the beginning, It all plays fairly true. It’s not overly dramatic. It all seems very sloppy like how things might go in real life. The fact that a guy just turns around and and chokes a wrench at him, you know, which causes him to fall and you know, except for the fact that he can get up and walk after a chainsaw’s fallen on his leg. Right.

Todd: But she’s really only saved by the fact that this truck driver just happened to come by, and then he just takes off again. We don’t know who he is. We never know who he is. He’s just a guy. There’s no victory in it anywhere. It just ends, and it ends in silence. We’ve had

Craig: Yes.

Todd: We’ve had quite a bit of music throughout this movie. And, again, a lot of it was mostly ethereal, And then it gets pretty crazy, but it’s a very good use of music, I think, in the film. It’s mostly atmospheric.

Craig: I was gonna say it’s interesting that you call it music because there, there is some music like in the gas station, there’s the radio playing, But they said that with the sound design, they wanted to stay away from traditional orchestration. They wanted to try to use sounds That an animal would hear in a slaughterhouse. This movie is considered a classic, And it’s it’s and I and and I understand why. I I think that it should be. You know, I do think that it was groundbreaking, And it clearly paved the way for so many things. First of all, you know, there have been I I don’t even know how many sequels And and remakes and and sequels to remakes. I mean, we’re getting probably up close to 10 at this point, I would say. It’s it’s so different than any other franchise, and that most of the other franchises try to maintain some sense of continuity.

Craig: And The people behind this franchise just really kind of seem not to care. So so the backstory changes, the characters change from movie to movie, sequel to sequel, remake to remake. Of course, Leatherface is always central. But even, you know, Tobe Hooper directed the second one too, if I remember correctly, and they went in a completely different direction. The second movie could be considered a comedy just as easily as it could be considered a horror movie. Right. I mean, it’s it’s wackadoodle and and silly, but fun. Like, it it really is fun.

Craig: And I’ve seen them all. I feel like the third one had Dennis Hopper as, like, the or maybe it was 2nd I

Todd: get the 2nd and the

Craig: 3rd one mixed up. And then the 4th one had a young Matthew and Rene Zellweger and Matthew McConaughey really was off the wall and crazy but it was fun. And then you had the remakes Then the sequels to the remake which went really dark, and then there was Texas Chainsaw three d which totally retconned it and made things different and set it in modern day. And tried to kinda tie it to the first one, but it was loosely connected. And we’ve got a new one coming out too. I think that it the new one, I think, is called Leatherface, but that’s gonna kind of handle the backstory of, how Leatherface became Leatherface. So it’s this kind of crazy madcap series of movies, but it works. People want more of it.

Craig: You know? And and Really, it has established itself and and maintained its popularity as much, if not more so, than some of its contemporaries Nightmare on Elm Street and Friday 13th and and all of those. So clearly, mister Hooper was was Onto something good here, and, his legacy, is is going to live on for a very long time.

Todd: Well, you can see the inspiration of things that came before it, such as Psycho. I think especially about the grandparents and stuff in the, you know, in the attic and whatnot. And also, you can see what it influenced as its place in time as being one of those I think one of the first of these silent, Unstoppable, hulky, masked killers. You know? Mhmm. Jason, obviously, you know, very much drawn from this as well. And even, apparently, Ridley Scott said that, it was an inspiration when he was working on Alien, of all things. I’m not quite sure where that where that falls, but, he that’s what he said anyway.

Craig: And and look at Rob Zombie. I mean, House of a 1000 Corpses is virtually a remake of this movie.

Todd: But honestly, if it had come out today, it’d just be another one of these movies. Right?

Craig: Probably. Mhmm. Yeah.

Todd: It it’s not that good. You know, you you have to look at it through the lens of history, obviously.

Craig: Right. Right.

Todd: But, it’s it’s kind of a shame, really. I I thought we would see a lot more out of Tobe Hooper, And he did a few things like Life Force. He did Eat and Alive, which I remember seeing, which I I thought was really schlocky at the time. It’d be interesting to go back and look at, About a a guy who runs a hotel and has alligators, like, under the is either in the basement or under the porch out front or something like that and feeds people to it. Life Force was pretty critically panned, but he said there was there was all kinds of studio interference that made that turn out the way he He didn’t want it. Then there’s Poltergeist, which, you know, he’d been given the credit for all this time. But it sorta turns out that Steven Spielberg actually Did the directing on that. Right.

Todd: So when you kinda look at his production afterwards, I don’t think any of it really has reached up. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong. What am I missing here? He he went into did a lot more TV and kinda small movies after that, I think.

Craig: And he did a lot of things, like, with Anthologies like Masters of Horror and things like that, and and and good stuff. And you know, some of the the movies you mentioned like Life force. Yeah. It didn’t do particularly well, but it has a big following. Invaders from Mars, I think he did, was a remake that he was actually really proud of and a lot of people really liked, I like that one. He was yeah. He was attempting to make a a horror movie for kids, or at least that was kid friendly. I don’t remember it.

Craig: I’d like to watch it. We should do it sometime, but nothing nothing really lived up to to this really. And it’s strange because you hear his name all the time, and other filmmakers Give him credit all the time and and cite him as an inspiration. He was clearly respected, in in the horror filmmaking community, and that has to be for a reason. He may not have had the same oeuvre of work as some of the other filmmakers that we talked about, but he clearly made an impact, and you have to give respect to somebody who is is gonna go down in in horror Sri, as a groundbreaker and as an inspiration, you you hope that you can leave that kind of legacy, and I think that he did.

Todd: That’s true. And I have to say, even though I said, you know, if this would come out today, it it wouldn’t be anything because there’s just so much like it now, obviously, because it kind of came from this. I have to say when I when I rewatched it this time, yeah, I was pretty brutalized by it. It it really it still had an emotional impact on me. You know, there’s there’s a lot you could say about The comfortability of it, the violence toward women aspect of it, that’s just it’s it’s really pretty raw and in your face. And even today, that aspect of it really does hold up. Agreed. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode.

Todd: If you enjoy it, please share it with a friend. You can Find us on Itunes, Google Play, and Stitcher. You can also find us on Facebook where you can like us, our page there, and leave some comments about what you thought of this film as well as any films you’d like us to watch in the future. Until that time, I’m Todd, and

Craig: I’m Craig

Todd: with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

The second half of the original made-for-TV miniseries of IT follows the kids as adults who return to take care of unfinished business. Suffice to say that we found the conclusion even more disappointing than we remembered it being.

Episode 95, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast.

Craig:  Hello, and welcome to another episode with Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Craig.

Todd: And I’m Todd.

Craig: And here we are with our second part of our 2 week episode over Stephen King’s It, the miniseries from 1990. Todd, I feel like there’s good news and bad news this week. The good news is I kinda doubt that we’re gonna talk about this movie for an hour and 20 minutes. The bad news is because it kinda sucks. 

Todd:  Yeah. Oh, 

Craig:  man. I hate it. I hate to, be too critical because I really do have very, very fond movies of this memory or of this movie. I don’t remember if I said it last week. I may have, but this was kind of my go to sick day movie. When I was a kid, anytime I was home sick from school, I would always pop this in. And as I was watching the second half, yesterday, I realized that it it really probably was a perfect sick day movie because I could watch the first half and really enjoy it and then just kind of sleep through the second half. Because in all honesty, the second half is pretty darn boring.   Nothing much really happens, until the last 10 minutes or so. You know, some stuff happens and there’s some good stuff in there. It’s it’s not bad. It’s not terrible, but, it’s pretty slow paced and, until you get to the end. And then frankly, the ending’s, a pretty big letdown. And I think that everybody agrees about that. Even the actors and filmmakers realized that the ending just didn’t work the way they wanted it to. And I think that it was because of budget constraints.   This was a made for TV movie, and the fact that the ending of the book really is is so cerebral and and kinda out there that it’s it’s really just difficult to translate to film in general. And what they ended up with, they man, they gave it the old college try. But, in the end, I was left feeling a little disappointed. What’d you think? 

Todd:  Now I have to say, of the 2, sections, I actually thought that the second section was stronger. I don’t mean that it was good. I just mean that I felt like, there were aspects of it that I enjoyed more than the first half. Now I’m not saying that I didn’t think it was boring. I didn’t say I’m not saying I didn’t think it. Everything you said is true. Let me just put it that way. It didn’t really move.   There wasn’t a lot going on, and we still had more of that Pennywise popping in, but not really do anything doing anything to them 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. Situation. 

Todd:  And when you’ve sat through, you know, an hour and a half of that before, to then be hit with it for another hour and 20 minutes just for the grand finale at the end, it gets really tedious. But what I did like about this, and maybe it’s just because I’ve read the book more recently and so Mhmm. Maybe my glasses are a little colored by, the fact that I was enjoying some of the aspects that they drew out in the film from the book. And that is that I felt like since they got all of the necessary stuff out of the way from the beginning, introducing us to the characters, giving us a little bit of their backstory, this second half had the luxury of pacing, in that it could take a little more time with some of these scenes, and I thought it was a little more artful in a way. It still took us to flashbacks Todd to fill in a little bit more of their childhood and some of these other memories that the kids had that weren’t directly related to it or weren’t, directly related to their final battle with It. And to get the characters a little more fleshed out was nice. Sure. And I also liked some of the the things that they did with them coming back into town.   I thought that their encounters with It again in the town were kind of fun. But, honestly, here’s the problem, and I think you just laid it out, is at the beginning of the movie, you get this lead up to this grand battle. We’ve gotta defeat this it. And then at the end of that, they think they’ve defeated it, but we know that they haven’t. Right. 

Craig:  So the 

Todd:  whole purpose is they’ve gotta come back and fight it. So you’ve really kinda blown your load right there. Right? Like 

Craig:  Yeah. Come 

Todd:  back. Now let’s get to the fight, but we don’t get that right away. Right? We get all of this, exploring the town, having a bunch of discussion. Are we gonna fight it? Aren’t we gonna fight it? Gearing ourselves up to fight it, but not even in a very exciting way. So that, yeah, you just have to sit through, you know, if you’re watching on TV with commercials, almost 2 hours of all of this back and forth before what you were expecting, which is get down there and fight the monster already. 

Craig:  Yeah. And and you’ve got some pretty strong actors there. I mean, these are people who were not hugely famous. They weren’t huge names, but they were, at the time, very, very familiar faces. You know, Richard Thomas is Bill, as I mentioned from, he was from the the Waltons. Annette O’Toole is Beverly, who I remember when I was younger, kinda having a crush on. I don’t know. She just seemed pretty cool.   This time around, I I ran a little bit colder with her. I I’m I’m not sure exactly why. You know, John Ritter, famous for 3’s Company and and lots of other TV stuff. Harry Anderson as Richie. Harry Anderson was the the judge, the main judge on night court. He’s doing his best to really be the funny guy in in this in this half of the movie. That’s a good way of putting it. That’s a good way of I I I think, you know, his his comedy was a lot more fresh in the eighties nineties than it reads today.   They’re trying. And and Richard Mazer as Stan, again, another familiar face. He was in My Girl. He was in 30 something. He was, in the thing. And and so yeah. Lots of you know, these people were very recognizable, but, ultimately, watching it again this time, I just kinda got the impression that, I don’t know. You know, TV movies were kind of a big deal.   We talked about this last week. TV movies were kind of a big deal when we were when we were younger. You know, they were events. They were highly publicized. Big name people or or at least reasonably big name people would sign on to these things. I watching it again yesterday, and and maybe it was just my state of mind yesterday, I don’t know. But, it it kinda seemed like maybe they were in it for the check. There are parts of this installment where I really appreciated, you know, the camaraderie.   You know, there’s and and we’ll we’ll run down the plot here in a second, but when they actually all get together for the first time after having not seen each other in almost 30 years, it was kinda nice. You know, you got the sense of these people reuniting after a long period of time and and reestablishing their friendship and their camaraderie, and there are some good moments there. And the book is so long, and there’s so much detail in it, and it seemed like whereas in the first episode, they were trying to cram so much in and it was really, really fast paced. In this installment, it almost feels like they were kind of trying to stretch a little bit to get to the 2 hours or hour and a half or or whatever it is. You know, as far as plot is concerned, not a lot happens. Basically, you can break down the plot as Mike has figured out that it is back. He calls everybody, which we’ve already covered in the first installment, and then everybody comes back. They get together, they have dinner, and then they go into the battle again.   And I I mean, that’s that’s basically it. And so, I don’t know, I it just it felt a little bit like padding, for for much of it, for me. 

Todd:  A lot of it also seemed like again, it’s just rehashing the same formula. Like we talked about in the first movie, in the first half, we we actually were pretty complimentary about the fact that they simplified things for the TV show, That they just made Pennywise the guy, and so everybody would see Pennywise. And then by the end of it, they all realized that they all saw Pennywise, and that’s what brought them together. That’s what they had in common, and that’s how they realized something was wrong with the town. In this one, it’s the same thing again. 

Craig:  Yeah. It really is. 

Todd:  Bill is the first one who comes into town. He visits his brother’s Craig. And what does he do? He sees Pennywise. There he’s there digging a grave. Again, he’s not attacking him or anything. He’s just trying to scare him. And Bill’s getting his stutter back, but even that comes and goes when it’s convenient. Yeah.   Then Bill meets Mike at the library, and they talk. And then Ritchie comes, and he sees on the theater marquee, our, you know, rest in peace, Richie Tozier. And then he goes to the library, and Mike is not there because he’s left, and he has an encounter with Pennywise. Bill and Mike have this moment with Silver, and and that was, that was interesting. In the book, my of course, there’s a lot of stuff that happens, but Bill actually finds silver in like a pawnshop, silver being his bike. His bike. Right. Which has a bigger role to play in the book, but it was nice to see them, kind of introduce it in the second half and then give you enough flashbacks to realize, oh, yeah, that was an important thing too.   And so Mike has had it and he says 

Clip:  Yep. I ran across in the pawn shop about a year ago. I don’t know. Something made me buy. It’s got a flat tie, but that’s all that’s wrong with it. But here’s the real kicker. I bought this tube repair kit with Impulse about 3 months before I saw this bike, there was some kind of force guiding us that summer. I don’t know if it came just to help us or if we created it, but maybe maybe it’s still here. 

Todd:  That is a big part of the book. Right. A little bit more or less so in the movie, but the big part of the book is there’s this sense of faith. There’s this other force. It’s a good force. It’s it’s the turtle. 

Craig:  It is the turtle. I do like you know, I like the idea of that. Like you said, it’s fleshed out much more in the book, and it would be difficult really because it’s just so conceptual. But, the the fact that they at least acknowledge it in the movie is nice Todd know that, whereas you’ve got this evil force on one side that there’s also kind of some counterbalance, with something good working in their favor. And and it’s I I did appreciate that they included that, but, I mean, like I said, you know, so much of it feels like padding. Like, there’s literally, like, a music montage where Mike and Bill play on the bike. We’re like, 2 minutes. It’s forced, isn’t it? I mean, it’s cute, I guess, kind of in its own way, These 2 grown men.   And like, it goes back and forth between, you know, the 2 grown men playing on this bike and doing goofy things and giving each other rides and, like, riding over a seesaw and all and it cuts back and forth to when they, you know, were kids and they were playing on the bike. I get what they were doing, they were trying to re establish the connection. Because another thing that every time somebody comes back, they make a point of how they don’t remember. This this major event that happened in their life with Pennywise, something has caused them to almost completely forget it. And it’s only when they get back in town that the memories start flooding back. And those memories, manifest in flashbacks. And the flashbacks are appreciated and some of them are new, Some of them are things that we didn’t see in the movie, but I would say maybe half of them are things that we already saw in the first movie. I guess, if you watched the first movie and then there was a week where you had to wait for the second movie, maybe it would be nice to have kind of those callbacks.   But if you were to sit and watch the thing all the way through, to me, it just felt a little bit redundant. Like Yeah. Yeah. I I remember. I saw that. I saw that the first time around, but thanks for reminding me. It’s really formulaic. And and just like you said, it’s just we see everybody come back.   And what happens to everybody when they come back? There’s the whole bike thing with Mike and Bill, and then, Richie in the library, and and every time, you know, Pennywise appears, each one of them individually, and like you said, he’s not doing anything, but he’s trying to scare them, and and he keeps warning them, leave. Leave now. This is your last chance. You’ve gotta go. And and this is played up more in the book too. It the reason that he’s not doing much to them and the reason that he’s just trying to scare them and get them to go away is not necessarily because the entity is frightened of them. It’s not until the very, very end of the book that the that the IT entity actually, starts to believe that, he could potentially be defeated. It it’s more so that because they are adults now, he doesn’t have as much influence over them as he did when they were children.   At at some point, Henry Bowers, who was the antagonist, you know, the bully, in the first part, we find out that after the events of the first movie, Henry Bowers took the fall for all of the murders that that it committed back in 1960. And he has been, put into a mental institution, and and he’s there. And eventually, it appears to him as Pennywise. You helped me once. 

Clip:  Remember, you chased those brats. Almost got a minute, Henry. Almost. Don’t you want another chance? You gotta go back and finish the job. You gotta go back to Derry and kill them all for me, Henry. 

Craig:  He specializes in terrorizing children. The adults of Derry don’t see him. When Richie is in the library, Pennywise, drops a whole bunch of balloons, all over the whole library. And they pop, and they spray blood in the face of all the patrons, and and nobody notices. It’s always funny to me there’s one actress who clearly reacts to the popping of the balloon. But the idea is that adults can’t see him, adults can’t see the stuff that he does. So it’s a little bit more difficult for Pennywise to get at them this time. So instead, what he does is he just tries to scare them away.   And, and he’s almost, successful. When Ben arrives, he is in the taxi cab, and, and he has the taxi cab pull over in the Barrens. And he sees an overweight kid, getting getting bullied. And it’s like identical to when he was getting bullied by Henry Bowers his gang. And then again, you know, it’s in the book, it didn’t feel repetitive. I I guess because the book is so freaking long that you kind of forget. But here it just kind of felt like, you know, a repeat of what we’d already seen. 

Todd:  And some of these scenes are kinda silly. Like that bit with Ben. Oh, he gets down. He he pulls the taxi side. He jumps down to the barons, and, oh, it happens to be that there’s another fat kid being chased by some bullies. He doesn’t do anything and they push him down, and then the kid just like lays there on the ground, like upset until Ben walks over. And he looks at his knee, and he’s like, oh, it looks like you have a scratch there, which can’t be, like, very deep or whatever. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And then he pulls out, like, his handkerchief, dips it in freaking river water Yeah. Cleans this kid’s wound out with this, you know, probably getting it more infected and then wraps it around it, ties it on there. 

Craig:  Lucky for me, you have that hanky thing. 

Todd:  Be prepared. 

Craig:  And why don’t you just keep it? Yeah. It’s really bad. It’s really silly. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. And then then Eddie gets back, and he goes to the drugstore to get his prescription filled.   And it flashes back Todd when he was a kid, and the pharmacist, mister Keen, pulls him in the back and says, you’re old enough to know, your mom’s just a hypochondriac and she’s made you a hypochondriac. And all I’ve really been giving you is, some water with some camphor in it to make it taste like medicine. It’s all in your head. Young Eddie gets all upset and runs away, but then older, 40 year old Eddie, hears mister Keen feebly calling from the back room for a cigar, and he goes back there. And at first, you know, mister Keen is like Alzheimer’s, you know, he he’s he’s virtually catatonic, and but eventually he starts to say, it’s just water, Eddie. Of course, it’s really Pennywise, and mister King grabs Eddie’s arm, and he’s got kind of this monstrous hand. And it the message is always the same. It’s it’s turn back.   It’s go back. Get out while you still can. You’re you’re too old. You can’t defeat me now. And every pretty much every one of them gets this message. The one that I remembered the most, from when I was younger, was was Beverly when when she came home. I I I felt like her homecoming of all of them was probably the most poignant. 

Todd:  Yeah. It was almost like a mini episode of The Twilight Zone, really. She Yeah. She goes to her old house and she sees Marsh on the on the doorbell. I mean, she’s obviously lost touch with her father intentionally over all these years. She rings the doorbell and a woman answers, and she says, well, who are you looking for? He says, oh, I’m looking for Marsh. And she says, oh, Marsh doesn’t live here anymore. And Beverly is like, but it’s on the doorknob.   And when she looks over, it’s actually Kirsch. She’s like, oh, I’m sorry. It was Kirsch. And the woman’s like, oh, well, come on in anyway. I used to know your father. We’ll have some tea. So she comes and she has some tea. She goes into the bathroom and kind of revisits that.   She comes back in, and the woman is serving her tea. But then, as they’re talking, and when Beverly looks down at her tea, it’s blood, in which she drops it in in shock, and it shatters, and the woman bends down to pick it up. And then when she looks back up, she’s like a half rotting or half decrepit or whatever the face of her father, basically. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And it turns out it’s Pennywise, and so she chases her out of there. And then when Beverly gets out across the street and turns back and looks out at the house, it looks like it it turns out it was boarded up the whole time. 

Craig:  But I think that the reason that it resonated with me was really because Beverly, of all of them, even though they were all quote unquote losers, Beverly was the one that really had kind of the most tragic story as a kid. I mean, her dad was abusive. We see that in the movie, not as nearly as much as we do in the book. In the book, it’s implied that there’s always the risk of sexual abuse. I don’t remember. Yeah. Was was was there explicitly sexual abuse in the book? 

Todd:  No. I don’t. But it was No. 

Craig:  The the the threat of it was certainly imminent. Like, you you were always worried that that it was gonna go there, especially because he was always so concerned tricked but then kind of being Todd this ghostly horrific image of her dad. That was the one that, of all of them, I felt was the most interesting. The rest were all just a little bit silly. We get a scene with Audra, she’s talking to her director, and the director’s clearly like hitting on her trying to capitalize on the fact that her husband has left and and whatnot. But, and instead of falling for that, she books a flight back to the US. She’s gonna follow Bill. And this is one of the things ultimately okay.   So both in the book and in the movie, it seems like Audra is going to come into this kinda like right in on her white horse and it, it almost feels, it, it feels like she’s maybe going to be a hero. And ultimately, I I don’t remember, you’ll have to refresh my memory how this plays out in the book because ultimately, this doesn’t pan out too much. When she actually does arrive in Derry, she’s just immediately mesmerizes her with his deadlights. And then that’s pretty much it. And then she’s just a victim from that point on. But I I do know that the, director of the movie was was really uncomfortable with this aspect of the movie. He didn’t like the fact that Audra kind of went from gallant hero to victim in in a heartbeat. Did it play out in the book the same way? 

Todd:  Well, the the whole bit with the gas station attendant was totally made up for the movie. What had happened was there were a couple people who were going back. There was Audra who was gonna go back and be kind of a white knight, but then there was Bev’s, husband, Tom, who who was much more brutal in the book, much more, like, just insanely horrible along with, you know, Henry. And, and he decides to go back, and he actually ends up meeting up with Audra, recognizes her, and he’s the one who kind of takes her, and is responsible for her ending up where she does. And I don’t remember exactly what happens to him, but he he ends up dead at some point too. But he’s a threat, so it’s like not just is Henry Bowers a threat, but this Tom guy’s a threat. And then Audra just kinda gets unfortunately sucked up in that very human human threat until she is pulled down. It’s basically like Tom gets mesmerized by Pennywise and then pulls her down into the sewer, at some point.   And we never really find out how, We just find out that it has happened. So 

Craig:  I feel like they could have incorporated some of those things. I I feel like there was time for it, and and I feel like it would have added more entry. You know, I I I guess maybe my guess would be that they wanted to keep the focus on the central characters, which I understand, but it really seemed like there would have been time for stuff like that. There were some things and again correct me if I’m wrong, it’s been a while since I’ve read it, but there were some things from the book, excuse me, that I I kinda didn’t like and I was kinda glad that they didn’t include, like, doesn’t Bill cheat on Audra with Beverly in the book? 

Todd:  Yeah. I believe that happens. And in this case, in the movie, like, the thing between her there’s kind of a triangle between her, Bill, and Ben that dates back to when they were kids. But in in the movie, they just clear cut, like, she ends up with Ben. They left that that aspect out of it. 

Craig:  Well, and I’m kinda glad because I remember finding that kind of in poor taste. And and first of all, you’re kind of rooting for Ben because he’s had the crush on Beverly from the very beginning. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Her first interest is Bill. You know, that’s who she has eyes for. And and eventually, you know, she she ends up with in any way. But the next scene, once all those people get back, and and, you know, Audra, we find out that Audra’s coming, then they all reunite at a Chinese restaurant for dinner.   You know, there are pleasantries where they all just kinda greet each other, and they’re joking around together. I saw something today. 

Clip:  Same to you.   Oh, man. What I saw at the library, woah. Was it Pennywise? With both barrels, it was Pennywise. He’s working on us already. Trying to chip away? 

Craig:  Maybe that means he’s afraid. 

Clip:  It. It’s afraid. Oh, man. It. 

Todd:  Help us remember, Mike. Help us fill in the gaps. 

Clip:  Yeah. Please. Because I don’t know what you guys are talking about. I can’t remember much of anything, and when I try, it kinda clouds over. 

Craig:  Richie, especially out of all of them, he just doesn’t wanna talk about it. 

Clip:  I don’t know about you guys, but this is the first time since I got here that I feel good. I mean, I feel halfway safe. Come on. Let’s have a couple of drinks.   If you want some   good food, have a couple of chucks. And let’s just leave the wolf out the door, 

Todd:  Spoken like the real loser, rich. 

Craig:  That’s right. 

Clip:  Todd the losers club. Alright. To 

Craig:  the losers. Losers. Losers. I’ll stay. And we just get to see them laughing and and being friends and and reminiscing about the not shitty part. 

Todd:  It’s another musical montage. Right? 

Craig:  It it I think 

Todd:  it’s the same song, if I’m not mistaken. Yeah. As when From when 

Craig:  they were building building the dam in in the first movie. Yeah. 

Todd:  I have to say, like, this aspect, this sort of theme, it it does carry through well, the the idea of reuniting with these old friends. And I I actually kinda liked this part. Me too. Just because I think I could kind of relate. Wouldn’t it be fun to get together with all of these old friends who you remember almost nothing about? And maybe you’ve already had this I’ve had an experience like this, where I’ve gotten together with friends that I literally had not seen since I was, like, 9. And they remembered things that I didn’t remember, and I remembered things that they didn’t remember, and we were just kinda swapping memories and talking about it. It was so fun. This really kinda recaptured that in this in this grand swooping, like, the camera never stops circling around the table. 

Craig:  Yeah. And and they’re joking around and they’re having a good time, and that’s nice. You know, everything has been so heavy and so dark, and it’s nice for them to have that light moment. And my, 20th high school reunion is next month, and I’m actually kinda looking forward to it for that reason, you know, just I’ve kept in touch with maybe 5 people that I went to high school with. I I would say that this scene is probably my favorite scene in the in this part of the movie. This would be the part when on my sick day, I would wake up. And then there’s kind of a cool little scary part at the end and then I could go back to sleep. And again, we keep saying this.   If you haven’t read the book, it’s fine. You can still appreciate the movie for what it is. But, you know, the book really kind of illuminates things. It’s really a bigger deal in in the book that all of them in their own right, except for Mike, who is the only one who stayed back. And that’s the reason that he remembered was because he never left. But and then we get the Henry Bowers scene, where he’s in the asylum and, Pennywise appears to him. Pennywise’s face appears in the moon and talks to him and and asks for his help and says kill them all. And then we go back to the dinner and we find out that Richie and Eddie want to leave.   You know, they they’ve they’ve fulfilled their promise. They said they would come back, but but that’s it. They wanna go home. And some people, Ben, and Bev, are, you know, a little bit they’re not angry, but they’re like, come on. We, you know, we have to do this. It’s us. We have to do it. But Mike says no.   You know, you the promise was that we would come back. As far as I’m concerned, everybody has has made good on that promise. You gotta do what you gotta do. And then the, waitress brings them their fortune cookies, and they all break into their fortune cookies. And every one of every one of them has something nightmarish in it, and each one is is kind of related to the individual person. It’s pretty effectively scary, and they’re all scared, and, you know, it was all done with puppeteers underneath, the table. And, I I I thought that was, pretty good and and pretty effective. And then they all head back to the library. 

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. Go back to the library. And Richie, the whole time, is talking about how he’s gonna bail. And this is a total construct for the movie because in the book, really, once they all get there, they kind of all they all know there’s a sort of this ominous dread. They all they don’t wanna do it, but they all know that they’re being called to do it, and they kinda have to do it. And I think that for the for the movie, because like we’ve been saying, there’s just nothing happens, that they had to do this in order to and this was their way, anyway, of injecting some tension or some conflict into the proceedings, was this this battle between them as to trying to convince everybody to stay and to finish the job. Honestly, when I first watched the movie and I hadn’t read the book, okay, it all made sense to me.   Having read the book and then watching the movie, it was a little annoying because I could see that, like I said, it was the only way they could keep this part halfway interesting, honestly. But they go to the library, and, Richie’s Richie’s being a comedian, and they call up they’re trying to call up Stan, and that’s when they find out that Stan is dead and he killed himself. At that point, they go to the fridge to get some drinks, and Mike opens it, and a bunch of balloons pop out come out, and inside the fridge stands severed head. 

Clip:  Sorry I’m late. Well, let’s see who’s here. Billy boy. Putting on a little weight. Speaking of dad’s, Bevy, yours isn’t worried about you anymore. He loves your choice in men. Wheezy, how’s your sex life? What’s your sex life? Well, Mikey, you did it. You got us all back here.   I guess it’s because it’s the only way you’d ever see us since you’re so lame, you’d never leave this town. 

Todd:  I think that’s when they flash back a little bit to Bill with with Stan a little more. Because it’s interesting, because in the first movie, we really really didn’t see a lot of Stan. 

Craig:  No. We didn’t at all. 

Todd:  So Bill remembers that he helped Stan get away on Silver. Again, this is almost also one of the first things we see of Silver being important, which, honestly, they should have stuck in, I think, the first half of the movie. I don’t know where they could have crammed it in, but somehow they should have made that important because the tail end of this movie really depends 

Craig:  on us 

Todd:  understanding that. But yeah. And then, Stan apparently saw a mummy at the old house by the park when he was out looking at birds. And 

Craig:  This is where they kind they they kinda melded some parts of the book because Stan did see something or or there was something ominous that happened, but it was in, like, some sort of, like, water tower or something in the book. And and instead, he sees it in this old house, which in the book, there was this old house, the the house on Neibolt Street. And it was kind of a big deal. And there was, I I think in the book, if I remember correctly, it was actually Eddie that, visited the house on Neibolt Street. And there was this whole deal with a leper, and it was really creepy and gross. And they didn’t include it here, I think, because, frankly, in the book, it was obscene. No. And I don’t think that they could include that.   I don’t think that they could have included that in mainstream TV movies. So they kind of, put it together here. And I agree with you that I wish that we had gotten Stan’s experience in the first movie, even though the first movie seems so jam packed already, and I I almost feel like maybe they they saved Stan’s part for the second half just for time reasons. Yeah. But it it feels a little rushed, and we don’t get very much of it. Bill talks about how, he he just saw Stan running away from this house, and and Stan jumped on the back of his bike and and Bill pedaled like he’d never pedaled before. And and they flew like the wind and and they got away. And and you’re right, that does come up later. 

Todd:  Come to think of it, like, it it’s just really hard to get that across in a movie because still, it just looks like they’re just kinda pedaling through the grass. It it you know, the the idea that this bike is just super fast doesn’t get visually across. 

Craig:  Right. Yeah. Yeah. It does. You’re right. 

Todd:  It’s a shame. 

Craig:  And it is a shame. And and something that I I think you mentioned Stand by Me last week, and it does. Especially the first part of the movie has a very Stand by Me feel, and Netflix’s Stranger Things, has really kinda capitalized on that. The nostalgia of those eighties movies that were about young people and and friendships between young people, and and you still, I get that sense from this movie Todd. But, it it’s just for whatever reason it just doesn’t feel as dynamic with the the adults. And and the director of the movie has said the same thing. He just felt like the relationship between the kids, and and the performance of the kids was there was more magic to it than there was with the adults, which is unfortunate. And and I don’t know what is to blame for that because it’s not these aren’t bad actors, you know, they’re they’re decent actors, and and they’re, I don’t know, but it it just it just doesn’t have the same magic, as as the relationships between the kids.   But, they’re they’re they’re in the library, and after they see Stan’s head, the library, kind of goes into chaos. The sprinklers go off, books start flying off the shelves. And I read that, this was actually, you know, a really chaotic scene to film and, some of the actors were actually mildly, you know, nothing severe, but mildly injured because things were flying around, so much and they they did it all in one take but they just, I guess they completely tore that place up. When all this is happening they circle up and they hold hands and they stand in a circle and it stops. And and that’s kind of a big point, you know? Earlier, Bev had had flashed back to when, the balloon, the blood balloon had popped in her bathroom, and she had tried to clean it up herself and had cleaned it up herself, but as soon as she had gotten it all cleaned up, it just immediately came back. And it was only when she brought in her friends, the the guys, to help her that it went away for good. You know, the message that we’re supposed to get there obviously is that none of them can do this alone. They have to do it together.   And I guess that’s what’s supposed to create the tension of, no, nobody can leave. Richie can’t leave. Eddie can’t leave. Nobody can leave. If they’re gonna defeat this thing, they’re gonna have to do it together. And, eventually, they kind of figure that out. 

Todd:  So after the library, well, Belch visits Henry, the ghost of Belch visits Henry, gives him his switchblade, and helps him to break out of the insane asylum that he’s in, or the whatever, the prison. So we know that he’s gonna be in pursuit, and then they go to the dairy inn together, which dairy has some really nice places. Like this this crummy little town has, like, the nicest Chinese restaurant you’ve ever seen. This lovely little bed and breakfast. 

Craig:  Oh, my gosh. And which they have 

Todd:  all to themselves. It’s very nice. And then Mike gives them all a big history lesson. And this is where we get kind of lesson, and this is where we get kind of exposition man dumps on us, 

Clip:  about the history of the town and how every 30 years 

Todd:  or so, this this there’s always a big disaster of some kind, and, then it starts eating children. 

Craig:  Well, but that wasn’t even I don’t remember it never bothering me before, but it bothered me this time because isn’t that pretty much the exact same exposition he gave in the first movie? Like, I I understand. I understand. I understand that it’s, you know, it’s been 30 years and they’re supposed to, like, kind of not remember. But basically, he just tells the same story that he told in show and tell in his first day of school in the first movie. But whatever. Whatever. So we get the history. 

Todd:  There’s an interesting scene, when Bev, visits Ben, and she starts coming on to him and telling him that, oh, yeah. I knew that you were the one who wrote that poem for me, and this is in their hotel room later afterwards. And, then it turns out to be Pennywise, and then, Henry gets to Mike and Wait. 

Craig:  Wait. Wait. Wait. Sorry. Go ahead. No. You can’t skip over it because it’s my favorite light in the old movie. Oh, yeah.   When When Ben is making out with Beverly, and then he stops and he’s looking over, Beverly’s shoulder, and there’s a mirror in the room. And, it it the camera pans down and Beverly’s wearing a shawl, but underneath the shawl you see that it’s, the clown suit, and so Ben pushes herhim away, and it’s Pennywise. And Pennywise’s lipstick is all smeared, and he says 

Clip:  Kiss me, fat boy. 

Craig:  Oh, gosh. Alright. Not that that’s important in any way at all, but, cracks me up every time. 

Todd:  So then, Henry gets to Mike, and, and Henry actually ends up dying, but not before Mike is stabbed. And so they, have somebody come and, you know, they take him to the they basically he gets ushered away to the hospital. And then Ben and Bev have another moment, and it’s almost like it’s daytime again. It’s the next morning, and Bev comes up to him and almost has almost exactly the same interaction with him as before. And once he realizes this, he’s like, wait, you’re not the clown, are you? You know? I actually thought that was kinda cool, like, this this sort of paranoia, you know, that they’re getting where they don’t know what’s real and what’s not, and it’s interfering with their own relationship there. I thought that was cool. But anyway, you you kinda figure out at this point that they’re gonna get together. Right.   Bill visits Mike in the hospital, and then Mike gives him these silver bullets. Apparently, Mike and this isn’t part of the book, but apparently, Mike went back at some point, to fairly recently, maybe. I don’t know. Went back to it was he said it was at a point where he was really low and he might as well have killed himself. He was kind of half hoping he died. He went back into the sewers and retrieved the 2 earrings that, Beverly had shot at Pennywise, just just thinking they might need them again. And so he hands those to him. Again, we have another moment where Rich and Eddie both wanna leave, And then basically, they’re all gonna go, like everybody except Bill has just decided they’re gonna leave. 

Craig:  Well, even Bill, even Bill at that point, I think they’ve all kind of decided to go. But as Bill is as they’re all walking out, Bill is the last one to go and he sees something that changes his mind. You know, they all talk and and they decide that they can’t go to the police because Henry Bauer’s body is just upstairs in one of their rooms. They’re like, what are you gonna do with this? And they haven’t they haven’t told anybody. And so they’re just gonna leave. Like, they’re just gonna leave town and get the heck out of there. But, Bill is the last one to walk out of the inn, and, as he’s walking by the lobby, he sees a woman and a young boy, at a piano playing Fur Elise. We didn’t mention that in the first movie, but that was the song that his mother was playing on the piano on the day that Georgie died.   Bill walks out and he says, I just saw something. I have no idea if it was real or if it wasn’t. I have no idea if you would have saw it or you wouldn’t, but I have to stay. I he and he says, I’m gonna kill it. And it it flashes back, to the moment from the first movie where, Bill is saying to the to the whole group, help me. Help me. And it’s it’s just kind of a a remembrance of that moment, and they do. Everybody comes over to him and and everybody embraces except for Richie.   Richie comes over and stands next to them, but he doesn’t embrace. And I read that it was scripted that they would all embrace, in a group hug, but that the the actor, I can’t think of his name, the night court guy, who played Richie. Yeah. Yeah. He, he said, no. I don’t I don’t think Richie would hug all of them. And the director eventually agreed because now, that Stan has died, he was kind of the skeptic of the group. But they do all the they all stay, then Finally.   Yeah. Exactly. Finally. I mean, this is this is it. This it’s like all up to this point has just been, Okay. Alright. Alright. Alright.   I get it. And then and then it’s and then it’s back into the sewers. And and this is we’re we’re probably in, what, the last maybe 15 minutes of the movie. You’re thinking, oh, thank Todd. Finally, they’re gonna get back into the sewers. And then they do, and it’s just not all that exciting. Like, it was it was much scarier the first time around. 

Todd:  It sure felt like it, at least at least at the beginning. They they go down there, they’re talking about actually, my favorite line of the movie my favorite line of the movie comes from Ritchie. When they’re grabbing and gathering all their stuff together, he looks at them and he’s like, 

Clip:  I don’t suppose anybody thought to bring anything really useful like a machine gun. 

Craig:  Yeah. And and Bev’s like, oh, I got my slingshot. And he’s like, okay. I still think we should’ve should’ve brought a machine gun. 

Todd:  It’s so Yeah. So they go into the sewers and, you know, Bill actually finds his wife’s purse there, so he kind of sees that Audra is down there. They end up in that spot where they had their interaction with Pennywise, the first place, and a boat comes floating down, it’s the boat that his brother, you know, in that iconic scene, Georgie, had been floating down, and then he sees Georgie, and Georgie’s like, Bill, why did you let me die? Why did you let me die? And and they’re like, oh, it’s not real, it’s not real, and so he picks up the boat, and he puts the boat back down, and the boat starts floating away from them. So the notion is that because he’s kind of overcome his fear or whatever, that it’s showing the way. 

Craig:  Well, first, Pennywise appears to them as the great and powerful Oz. That’s right. He’s just floating up in the air. Yeah. Just like it looks like they just had a projector that they projected on some fog. You know, it’s it’s kind of unfortunate special effects. But, he he says to them, you’ll never see me. You’ll only see what your little minds will allow.   But it’s it’s not, from a viewer’s perspective, particularly scary or threatening. And then, yeah, Bill puts the the boat down. The the the place that they’re in is like some sort of impasse or or crossroads, and there’s all these different sewer tunnels. And and he puts down the boat, and the boat goes down one particular tunnel, and they follow it. And you can tell if you’re looking closely that, like, it becomes much less, man made and and more natural looking. Like, they’re actually getting into the depths of, something that’s that’s supernatural, that’s not man made, something that’s ancient. And it leads them to a little tiny fairy tale door. Which could be there.   Part of the book. You know, it was in the book that way. Yeah. It’s true. Bones and skulls outside the door, and then, you know, beyond the door is the finale of the movie. 

Todd:  Big cave like chamber and, and then a giant spider comes out. 

Craig:  And and the first thing they see is this giant spider web, and it’s like this it’s like I don’t know. It go it goes up and up and up seemingly forever. And it’s, you know, there’s just this big, like, vertical tunnel of this spider web with bodies in it. And I don’t even know. I think that they see that Audra is in there. We see that Audra is in there, but it doesn’t appear that she’s dead. She just seems to be mesmerized or hypnotized or something. And then, yeah, a giant spider puppet comes out.   And I love them. You know, they They tried. What they tried, you know, it’s it’s a puppet. It’s a practical effect. It’s great big, but it it it just looks awful. I mean, it it looks like, yeah, it it looks like something. When you see it in close-up, it, from just a visual perspective, it’s scary looking, but it doesn’t move naturally, like it’s it’s it’s it doesn’t look organic, you know? It it looks like a machine. It looks like or a puppet or a prop.   And in long shots, when we’re supposed to be Todd by how large it is, it looks like something out of Clash of the Titans or something like that. Like, it’s it’s it’s not great, like, stop motion, and Todd doesn’t even look like it’s really in the scene. It looks like they did it on green screen or superimposed it on there or something. It just doesn’t look good. And then, obviously, this puppet had tons of limitations because they couldn’t really even do anything with it. Yeah. Like, it just it crawls out, and then it just stands there and looks at them for a while. And they look at it, and they’re all scared.   And Bev shoots at it with one of the pieces of silver and misses the first time just like she did the in the first movie. She shoots it again and she hits it in the face like she did in the first movie, but it doesn’t have any impact this time around. So both pieces of silver are gone. So she runs off to look for the pieces of silver, and then the spider just like rears up on its hind legs to expose its underbelly where its deadlights are. And these are its mystical, powerful deadlights that can drive people crazy, that can mesmerize people, and Bill runs up to it and is mesmerized and is frozen. And then Ben’s like, come on. You you have to run away. And he runs up and he’s mesmerized by it, and they’re just standing there.   And then Richie’s like, come on, you guy. And he runs up. And then he’s just mesmerized by us. Beth has run away. And, Eddie poor sweet cute Eddie, oh Todd. And we also skipped a part that, this isn’t in the movie. Okay. Or excuse me, not in the book.   When they’re outside the door, there has to be a Hallmark moment where Eddie, just for no apparent reason, confesses that he’s a virgin. And and and he says, I lied to you. I told you I was seeing this woman, but I’ve not, and I’ve never even been with anybody before. And rich is like, are you telling us you’re a virgin? And he’s like, yeah. And then he’s like, well, I could never be with somebody that I didn’t love, and I’ve never loved anybody except you guys. Now maybe it’s my own individual perspective. I always felt like this was kind of a coming out moment for Eddie in the movie. I thought so too.   You guys. Like, I’ve never loved anybody but you guys. You know, and then Bev gives him a big hug, like, oh, it’s okay, buddy. Isn’t there And then there’s some 

Clip:  other kid. 

Todd:  I think it’s what, Stan says to him. 

Clip:  Wheezy, how’s your sex life? What’s your sex life? 

Craig:  I don’t know if they were trying to suggest that he was gay. First of all, in the book, he wasn’t a virgin because they all pulled a train on Beverly in the sewers in the first part of the book. They all loved each other an awful lot. 

Todd:  Conveniently glossed over in the made for TV movie. 

Craig:  Which is which is fine. But okay. So then the everybody Bev’s off. Everybody else is hypnotized except Eddie, and Eddie goes up to the spider. And, again, it’s really silly. 

Clip:  I believe in Santa Claus. I believe in the Easter bunny. I believe in the tooth fairy, but I don’t believe in you. 

Craig:  And he takes his, inhaler again as he did before. He says, and this is battery acid. Now you die. And he sprays it, but nothing happens. And and the spider just grabs him and lifts him up in the air as he very dramatically, you know, screams in agony. And Bev finds the silver. She comes back around. She shoots the spider in its abdomen, which causes its deadlights to kind of explode and go out.   The spider drops Eddie and scampers away. They all gather around Eddie so that he can die in their arms, and then somebody says, We have to finish this. You know, I think Ricky says, If this day comes back when I’m 70. I don’t remember what the line was, but it’s pretty funny. And then, seriously, this is the climax of the movie and it’s so disappointing. They go into the room where the spiders are treated. They literally just push it over. Like a table.   They tip them over like a table. Yeah. And and punch its abdomen and pull out its heart, and it’s dead. And then they all they all go outside. He’s carrying well, the spider web comes down and and, Bill gets Audra and they are you know, we see them all outside and and Bill’s got Audra and Richie has brought Eddie’s body out. And, then we get invoice over Mike’s journal epilogue. 

Todd:  Bill with Audra. Audra hasn’t been the same. She’s kind of catatonic, basically. And so as Bill is loading her into the taxi to leave, he’s the last person to leave Derry. He has this idea, and he goes out and grabs silver, and he puts Audra on it, and tries to he says, you know, back when I was a kid, this this bike goes so fast it would beat the devil. I’m hoping I can do it again. And as he goes really, really fast down the street and down the hill, and as the bike picks up speed, she wakes up. And this is actually it’s part of the book too.   It was really pretty poignant, in the book. It was a conveniently poignant way to end the movie. 

Craig:  Well, and it just, it’s Todd me, it felt like a lame way to end the movie. Oh, yeah. And and you’re right. In the book in the book, it is kind of poignant because Mike explains in his epilogue that, you know, Richie went back to Hollywood and he continued to do well, and he was starring in a new movie, and he was starring alongside another comedian who, you know, looked and sounded just like Eddie, and, you know, that’s sweet. And he explains that Ben and Beverly went home together, and within, a month, they were married and and immediately pregnant. And so that that curse, was, was off of them. And then in the book, it, it takes more time. Now, it would have been boring in the movie to take more time with it, but Audra is like catatonic for like months.   Yeah. Right? Bill stays there, in Derry with Audra, but she’s catatonic and you know, he he he cares for her and, like, and for a long time. And then the thing happens where it right? He he does. You know, the whole bike ride thing happens in the book. Right? Mhmm. But it it it just it feels more like a payoff. In in the in the movie, it’s like it seems like she was catatonic that weekend, and then he took her on a bike ride and everything was okay. It was more poignant for me in the book, but you know, it’s a happy ending.   Those who survived, you know, apparently went on to be, happy and and to have been released from this this curse that they had kind of found themselves involved in. But, in the movie, you know, it’s it’s sweet, but it’s just kind of a it’s it’s a little anticlimactic. 

Todd:  Seems a little lame. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s that’s kind of a lot of the movie to the the book Todd the movie quite really, especially the second half. And, you know, I think that we were all just universally I remember just as much my one memory of my I have two memories of seeing this movie as a kid. The first memory, as I told you last week, was when I went back to school and my band teacher said, oh, my gosh. You know, this is the scariest thing I’ve ever seen. Like, my second memory was I think that very same band teacher coming back and going, oh, Todd.   Wasn’t that really lame? 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd:  It was lame to us then, and it’s lame to us now. And I the part of the problem is it really gives the distinct impression that it was a spider all along. Right. Right. Because you don’t have all of the development that you have in the book and because they didn’t really bother to really emphasize the fact that he can take whatever form he wants. In this case, the spider was just another form he took because it is. It’s the same in the book. They’re they’re going up against the spider, but like you said earlier, it’s a much more cerebral and surreal kind of, like, metaphysical thing where they they kinda go beyond the spider and sort of delve into this, like, interdimensional thing with their minds to battle him.   So the fact that it’s a spider isn’t such a big deal, but in the movie, in the show, you just don’t get any of that. You you just don’t. 

Craig:  Right. Well, and and there’s so much more to it. Not only can it take any form, but, it’s it’s revealed at the end of the book that pen the whatever it is, whatever entity Pennywise is, is actually female and pregnant. 

Todd:  Right. And he goes and kills all the things. Yeah. And and also like the other thing is we’ve talked about how the town is so corrupt. And in the book, again, it’s just very fitting that basically the entire town of Derry just falls apart, once it is killed. It is just entwined with the town. But in the movie, even though they did mention several times, you know, this is really a part of Derry, You don’t get that whole, like like, okay, if the town’s not falling apart, at least the town should change somehow, You know? There should be some visual visible, some kind of change in the Todd, like people are happier or things are better or something like that. 

Craig:  Doesn’t the town literally kind of collapse Oh, yeah. Into the ground? 

Todd:  Completely. Yeah. The the whole town collapses into the ground. The canal that’s running under it, you know, just, like, comes up and there’s a huge flood and basically, like, half the town’s people die. And, yeah, the town becomes a giant lake, essentially. Without that Todd, it’s just it’s another one of those, oh, there was this spider monster living under the town, and we almost beat it once, and then we come back and we beat around for a while, and then we go down and it was pretty easy for us to beat it, actually. It was it’s actually kind of a shame because by that point where they’re going up against the spider, there’s no more Pennywise. 

Craig:  Right. There’s no more is not even in the last 15 minutes of the movie. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and without that, it loses its personality. And so when they’re fighting a giant spider, it’s not talking. There’s not so yeah. So, like, it it just seems so disconnected, and and I think that’s part of why it’s such a letdown. It just it seems like a cop out. It’s not really a cop out. It’s just an unsuccessful, I think, translation of the book to the film. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. And all that said, as as critical as we have been, especially of the second part, I still and always will have really fond movies of this fond memories of this movie. This is the second time that you’ve you’ve mixed memories in movies when you said this. Yeah. The first time you you said It’s early here. I have really fond memories of this movie. I have really fond movies of this.   I’ll try again. Alright? Alright. With all as critical as we have been, about this, especially the second half, I still do and always will have fond memories, of this movie. When I was young, I found it entertaining and scary. And I will stand by the fact that Tim Curry is excellent, in this role. I look forward to the remake. You know, the remake is coming out here in couple of weeks. When I heard about the remake, I was excited but also skeptical because it’s not that I don’t think they can do good job.   I do think they can do a good job. In fact, I I I believe and hope that it will be better, than this. But but Tim Curry’s role is so iconic. I mean, I really feel like he’s really cemented himself as in this role, especially as, an icon right up there with Freddy and Jason and and Frankenstein. You know, like, he’s he’s one of those iconic horror villains. I don’t remember which Skarsgard brother it is that is, playing Pennywise in the new one. You know, I’ve seen the trailers. The trailers look good.   They look really promising. The movie looks like it’s got a good vibe. I know that, they, have updated Todd. It the, you know, the first part of the movie, and and that’s to say that we’ll get a second part. I have a feeling that this first movie is going to do incredibly well at the box office. So I believe that we’ll get the second half, but they haven’t made it yet. But, it it looks like it’s got a really good vibe. It’s it’s not set in the sixties.   It’s set in the eighties, the first part. And, the, director and the the filmmakers have said that they have taken some liberties with the source material and, and whereas in, in the original novel, it was kind of the classic movie monsters like Wolfman and Frankenstein that the kids were afraid of. They’ve kind of updated it so we might see Pennywise in some different different incarnations. I I really hope that it’s Todd, but I think Tim Curry will always be penny wise to me. 

Todd:  Yeah. For sure. That’s definitely our age talking though. 

Craig:  Yeah. It is. Absolutely. And that’s the thing. You know, I talk about, in in the around, Halloween time, I do a horror fiction unit with my high school kids. And I talk about this movie, and I show them, a couple of clips of Tim Curry as Pennywise. But it it just gets harder and harder to recommend this movie because it just doesn’t play well for a young Todd audience. It it hasn’t aged well.   It it it just hasn’t. So I I I really hope that this new version will speak to the younger generation and that they can kind of enjoy the story the same way that we did when we were young. 

Todd:  In the same respect, the fact that it had a big impact on us at least back then, obviously, it was part of the times, but also maybe just if you’re the right age, you know, if you’re with the right mindset to watch this, you could get something out of it. I mean, again, we were all disappointed in it even back then. But I’m wondering, you know, my I’m always looking for movies I can watch with my wife because she doesn’t really like horror movies. And this seems like it would be safe enough. Well, it is definitely safe enough that the 2 of us could watch. I’d be interested to see how she would react to it. And, I was also thinking, yeah, this might be a Todd, I don’t know, first, but certainly kind of one of the first horror movies for my son to see because it’s it’s got some depth to it. It’s got some it it’s it’s it’s not a simple story, really, but it’s safe enough, really that that that he might enjoy it and maybe be scared, you know, when he watches it for the first time.   I don’t know. 

Craig:  It it is safe enough and that there’s not a ton of gore, there’s not any sex. There’s no bad language. So yeah. I would like to believe that it still has a place, as as dated as it may be. Who knows? And and hopefully, one of these days, sometime in the not too distant future, we can talk about the remake, and see how it compares. 

Todd:  Absolutely. I’m looking forward to it too. I’m really excited. 

Craig:  Me too. Alright. Well, thank you for joining us for another episode. If you enjoyed this episode, you can find 90 something back episodes on, Stitcher or Itunes. As always please feel free to, share this with your friends. We would love also to hear from you, what you think of this movie or our assessment of it. And, if you have, any recommendations for movies that we could talk about in the future, let us know. We’ve actually got a pretty good list going of, listener recommendations.   But if you if you give us something, we’ll put you on the list and hopefully we’ll get around to it. Until next week, I’m Craig. And I’m Todd. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

There’s another remake on the horizon. So we thought we’d pay tribute to Stephen King’s magnum opus, “It”, by looking back at the TV miniseries that scared a generation of kids and adults, while putting clowns around the world out of work.

Episode 94, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd,

Craig: and I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, we are wrapping up the summer season of films, and it looks like there is at least one horror film on the horizon that I think a number of us horror fans are looking forward to. I am. Yeah, me too. And, as soon as I saw trailers for it, I thought, oh my gosh. This is this is almost, long overdue, really. It is Stephen King’s IT.   And, in honor of that, we thought, we would pay tribute to the 1990 television miniseries version of It, which freaked out both of us when we were kids, and, and we’re going to do that with our very first miniseries episodes of the podcast. So because the television show was broadcast in 2 2 hour chunks, which, makes for a 4 hour long movie, but in this case, without commercials, it’s really only about 3. We are going to do the first episode tonight on the first half of the of the the television miniseries, and then we will do next week’s episode on the second half of the television miniseries, which is handy because the story is kinda broken up into 2 halves. It’s about some kids who conquer, an evil or think they are they’ve conquered an an evil when they are kids and then are called back to fight it and finish the job as adults. Now, growing up in the eighties, Stephen King’s novel, It, I believe came out in 1985, or was it 1986? 

Craig:  I don’t know. 

Todd:  Yeah. I’m pretty sure it was 1985. This was the book that it seemed like everybody around me was reading. It’s about a foot thick, I think. Uh-huh. And, over a 1000 pages, and it at the I I think even Todd date, it is Stephen King’s longest novel, and he’s not known for writing short books. Right. But I remember growing up just this book being everywhere, and I should have read it at that time.   I did read the Tommyknockers. I read I read a lot of Stephen King’s books around this time, but I never conquered it for some reason or another. But one thing I did do was watch the television miniseries. And Craig, you can totally back me up on this. Like, again, in the eighties and maybe earlier than that, but definitely not now, when these sorts of things came on TV, they were like a major event. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Huge. 

Todd:  Like Todd, I mean everybody and their mother watched this and you know it’s kind of unequaled today that you would have like one thing that everybody from young to old is gonna sit down and watch at the same time and talk about the next day. And so when this came on, I watched it, my family watched it, my friends were all watching it, and then everybody was talking about it in school the next day. I remember very distinctly in band practice, our our band teacher interrupting. I was I would have been in 8th grade, I think, and our band teacher interrupting going, did you guys see it last night? And we’re all like, yeah. And she just looks at us like, that is the scariest thing I’ve ever seen in my life. And I do I remember being really freaky. The evil clown thing probably got its start pretty much from this movie. I mean, from this movie on, we all decided that clowns are scary.   So how about your history with Todd? Do you have any special, nostalgic stories to tell? 

Craig:  Well, yes. I yeah. I mean, I feel like any horror fan from our generation has Todd, you know, this has to be a memory from their youth. And it is of mine. Yes. Absolutely. Not only did I watch it, but like it was such a huge build of anticipation leading up to it. Like I was so excited about it.   And, I remember back in those days, when the only method for recording and saving things was VHS, I would, I had a, a TV in my room, a little tiny, probably like 9 or 12 inches, TV in my room and a VCR. If you wanted to record things, but you didn’t wanna have to watch the commercials over again later, you had to you had to record and then you had to pause when the commercials came on, and then you had to remember to unpause, when when it came back on. And I was so excited about this, and when I I was so excited when I was watching it that there were a couple of times that I would pause it to to edit out the commercials, and then I would forget to unpause it when it came back on. Oh, no. So so so the the VHS recording that I had of it that I watched over and over and over and over again had a few scenes missing because I had forgotten to unpause it after the commercials. And it really wasn’t until it, you know, much later that it, started re airing on TV sometimes. And, when the DVD came out, which I I I bought, that some of the scenes were brand new to me because I I had watched it so many times. And it was also like my go to sick day movie.   Like, if I stayed home, from school sick, I would always put this in because it was, like, nice and long, and I could just lay in my bed and watch this movie. And it was I just remember I have such fond memories of this movie, and I’m so nostalgic about it that even when I was watching it last night, and and I’ve talked about how my partner doesn’t really like horror movies, and he particularly doesn’t like scary clowns. Like they really freak him out. But but he was like, I’ll watch this one with you. I mean, even he, you know, also being our age, you know, it was, an event in his life that he remembered, and we sat down and watched it. And we were watching it, and I just remember saying to him last night, Alright, fine. All these people now who are saying that the movie is out of date, that it hasn’t, you know, really stood the test of time, I get what they’re saying, but I don’t care. I, you know, it’s a made for TV movie, and it feels like a made for TV movie from the 80s or early 90s rather.   But despite, despite some of its flaws and and despite its budget and the fact that it was made for TV, I really feel like there’s something special going on here, especially in this first part. There’s something about these kids, these actors, and they’re young actors and they’re not brilliant actors by any stretch of the imagination, but you really get the feel. And I’ve read the book too. I also didn’t read the book until I was an adult. Only in the past couple years did I read the book. But the, I feel like these kids really capture something special, and I think that’s what’s special about the book Todd, is that it really captures that feeling of childhood and the friendship that you have as a kid and and the special bonds that you have that’s that’s something really special and powerful and something that never you never forget, you know, despite the fact that you may go your own separate ways as you grow up, you know, you leave childhood behind. You know, there are those special bonds that you have with your childhood friends that are are so powerful. And and I thought that the book captured that well, and I thought the first half of the movie captured that well.   We only watched the first half last night. I haven’t watched the second half yet, so, I don’t know how I’ll feel about that one in retrospect, but this one, despite perhaps many flaws, I just I’m so nostalgic for it, and I just I freaking love it. 

Todd:  Well, you know, it’s, it’s a nostalgic book, and really, I just finished reading the book 5 hours ago. It’s funny that we’re doing this because as the movie was, as the brand new movie was coming out I thought, oh my gosh, that is a book that’s been on my list forever. I really need to check that out. And my wife and I were flying back to the States, and so on our 12 hour flight, you know, you’re always looking for something to do and some reading material. And so I made I was determined. When we go back to the States, I’m gonna find a used bookstore, I’m gonna get the mass market paperback version of of it, and I’m gonna read it on the way back. And it is, I did. I read it almost 12 hours straight on the plane, and I don’t even know if I hit the halfway point.   That’s how long it was. By the time, I have to say, by the time I was done with the book I was kinda sick of it, but it really taps those same chords. I mean, the whole theme, really, of the story is about, nostalgia, is about your childhood, about how you’re going to forget about your childhood too. That is a common thread, and and all these things are really just sort of touched on in the movie because they they have to be. You can’t apparently, ABC originally wanted to it was originally proposed to the network to do an an 8 parter instead of just the 2. Right? And they were nervous about 

Craig:  doing something that long, which is Yeah. And it it 

Todd:  was supposed to be directed by 

Craig:  would have would have been cool. Yeah. 

Todd:  I imagine that. Exactly. Well, there’s so much that they gloss over, but it’s interesting to see how they slip in little hints of things that they ended up glossing over into the movie. But but by the time you’re done, really, one of the threads that that go and I’m interested too because it’s been a while since I’ve seen this, and like you, I didn’t go on to see the second part yet. I’ve stuck to our bargain. And, and I’ll be interested to see if that aspect of the book, which is so strong, is carries through in the whole mini series. And that is the fact that when these guys are called back as adults, one of the main things in the book is that they have pretty much forgotten about this whole major traumatic episode, that happened to them as kids. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And it’s really becomes a metaphor for the fact that, as a child, you know, you have all of these life changing experiences and you have friends and everything is such a big deal to you. Right? Mhmm. 

Craig:  Yep. Yep. 

Todd:  And by the time you’re an adult, even by the time you’re in your twenties or your thirties, you look back and you could hardly remember any of it. You know it had an impact on you. You know it shaped who you are. But by golly, if you could pinpoint, you know, 3 or 4 episodes of of of what actually, you know, you did. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  And let alone, you know, keep touch with your friends or or remember your friendships, at all. It it’s it’s it’s really cool. So then when you see a movie like this, it does tend to stir up those kind of it’s like Stand by Me, you know? It’s Yes. It Todd just stirs up those memories that were long dormant in your own self of childhood. And, like, oh, yeah. I remember we had adventures like this, you know? And to us, like, the idea of building a dam in the creek was like a a cool thing to do. You know, I could spend all day doing it and talking about it and then feel proud about it when we were done. 

Craig:  I know. And, like, at the risk of sounding like an old guy, which I, you know, I realize that I’m getting Todd. It I I’ve accepted it’s cool, but whatever. But like it’s nostalgic also because you know, I see kids Todd, and I’m sure kids today are doing things that I don’t know about, but you know, when we were kids, we didn’t have, iPads and, and we didn’t have all these things that Todd distract us, you know, bazillions of channels on TV, Netflix, where, you know, anything that you want on demand. We didn’t have that stuff so much. So we went outside and, you know, we wrote Todd, we, we wrote our bikes and and we went and played in the dirt and played at the in the creek or at the pond or whatever. And, like, I think that’s part of the reason that I’m nostalgic, for this too because it just highlights a different kind of childhood that I I wonder if if kids are experiencing Todd know, I again, I’m sure times change, times have always changed. I’m sure kids have their own special memories these days, that I just can’t particularly relate to.   But going out with your friends, riding your bike, going down and doing something like building a dam, you know, down in the Barrens or whatever like these kids do. I have these memories, from from childhood. And it it’s just, I don’t know. It’s so nostalgic. I could go on about it for days, but that would be super boring. So, you know, we should talk about the movie. 

Todd:  Do we have to? I I just wanna say, Craig, I know what you’re talking about. But and and again, we’re always on guard of sounding like the old guy down the street, but I think you’re kind of on to something there. Because as teachers and and in the education field, you and I are pretty exposed to kids nowadays. Something has changed. You just gotta you gotta point it out. And it’s not the kids’ fault. You know, we’ve talked about just the world and how people seem to be a little more protective of children now than they used to be, and they’re a little more coddling of children than they used to be. And so the idea that that a parent would let their kids roam free to run around and and do these things that these kids do, kind of like we did before, is sort of a lost concept.   I can’t really see if you were to compare Derry, which is the town that this happens in, to modern day Todd. And Derry is 19 fifties. But it wasn’t a huge jump from 1958, I think, to 1988, really. No. In the the freedom that these kids were given, to run around the town. But Mhmm. This town is a cursed town. There’s 

Craig:  a lot 

Todd:  and again, it’s way more obvious in the book than it is in the in the show, and maybe that is one of my biggest criticisms of of the movie. Again, you can only fit so much in, but the one thing that the book has that the movie clearly doesn’t have is just this sense that it’s not just this fantastic evil creature that lurks in the sewers that these kids have stumbled upon, but it’s the creature that lives in the sewers of this town that has lived there for for forever, and and it it has his tentacles and things into the entire town so that even the adults in the town kind of Todd to turn a blind eye. They don’t want to. It’s just in their nature to turn a blind eye to the to the evil and the bad things that are that that exist kinda below the surface of this town. That really doesn’t come through, in this mini series at all. You don’t get a sense of that. It’s trying, but it Todd doesn’t really happen. 

Craig:  Well, and I I think, you know, adapting this to the screen, I I think would pose a challenge to anybody, and I’ll be really interested to see I’m excited about the remake. The the truth of the matter is when they announced the remake, I was both excited and skeptical because I I think that it’s difficult material to translate because there’s so much mythology in the book Yes. That that would just be so again, those of you who haven’t read the book, this will mean nothing to you. That’s fine. Skip to the next part of the podcast. But, like, there’s stuff there’s stuff with a a a giant mystical turtle, and there’s stuff with, like, the ritual of Chud, and like all this weird metaphorical stuff that really would be very difficult to translate to the screen. And, and I’ll be interested to see how the, the new one handles all that stuff. There’s also stuff, there’s content in the book, that you that is just so off.   I know what you’re talking about. You chuckle. You know what I’m talking about.   Oh, yeah.   There’s content in the book that, like, is questionable even in the book and that you certainly couldn’t translate into film. I don’t think successfully ever, not even in 2017 when our our sensibilities are are very different. So, you know, I I I what I thought that the miniseries did well was that whether you had read the book or not, first of all, it was an entertaining movie. But if you had read the book, it did try to like, what what my partner noted last night when we were watching it was that it was really fast paced. Like boom boom boom boom. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Like, getting a lot of content into a very relatively small span of time. But if but having read the book, I appreciated that. I appreciated nods to the book, and I appreciated them trying to get as much content from the book as they could. Again, who did, did Stephen King adapt this? Did he write the script? 

Todd:  Nope. Nope, he didn’t. He had very little to do with the, the creative process of the of the miniseries. 

Craig:  Yeah. Well, what I what I what I read today was that the director, Tommy Lee Wallace hadn’t hadn’t even read the book when he made the movie. He’s at the time, he said that he wanted the script to speak for itself. He wanted, you know, just to to focus on the content of the script and not worry about the book. He he read the book later and and then later on said that he wished that he had read it before he made the movie because he felt he felt ultimately that the movie didn’t do just service to the book, which I can understand from a certain perspective. But knowing that he hadn’t read the book, I I’m really kind of impressed at how much of the content of the book they were able to get into this. You know, even if, you know, with commercials and everything and a miniseries, even if it’s 3 hours and 15 minutes or whatever, they did a pretty darn good job. I think it’s a pretty good adaptation, literary adaptation. 

Todd:  And and I think King was pretty happy with it, and he’s notoriously not happy with a lot of the adaptations of of his work and sometimes for very good reason. And he was, he said he thought they did a pretty good job with it. For him, that’s pretty good. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let’s talk about the movie. And and you talked about how you had started the book, or no no no. Maybe I don’t know if you had started it or not, but my experience was as a child, I had start a child, I don’t know, 13, 14. I had started it, several times, and I couldn’t get past the first, 30, 40 pages because all I remember, the first 30, 40 pages were about these very stereo typically drawn, homosexual guys, getting getting killed. And, like, it was graphic and and it it I don’t know.   It it Yeah. Even at that point in my life when I didn’t even know who I was, it was just unsettling to me for some reason and I I never got through it. I got over it eventually. 

Todd:  It is unsettled. Actually, you know, the book is very fresh in my mind, obviously, and 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  I was blown the first several pages were were very bothersome to me. And, and I was also surprised, at the theme the thematic material of it, consider. I mean, it just kind of seemed very modern to even have that as as subject matter, with this sort of hate crime. Right. It seems like something an author nowadays would consciously put in a book because they’re trying to make a statement. And here’s Stephen King back in the eighties before this was really bubbled up to our high level of consciousness. 

Craig:  We are gonna have a hard time keeping this an hour if we okay. So it the the movie after those opening credits, and and we see in the opening credits a scrapbook, with old pictures, black and white pictures of what we will find out is the losers club. You know, this group of 7 kids. Yeah. 7 kids, who we’re gonna be following, throughout the entire movie. And then it cuts to the scene where this cute little blonde girl riding her tricycle and, her mom, calls her in because it’s gonna Craig, and her mom’s pulling in laundry, and so the mom takes in the laundry. And this little girl hears this very creepy laugh, and she looks at, the clothesline and and the sheets are blowing in the wind. And then suddenly behind the sheets appears this clown, who we later find out is Pennywise the clown, and her face turning from a smile Todd, a look of terror.   And then it cuts away and the mom comes out and and the girl is gone. And and that sets up basically the premise of of the movie, which is that children are disappearing. And in this first scene, once the police are there, there’s another man there, a black man, who we find out, is Mike.   What you got, Sam? There’s not much left, just like the last time. Anybody see anything? The mother said you saw them. I told you to stay out of this, Hammond. I’m just a concerned citizen chief, and I call 6 kids missing or dead a major cause for alarm here. Maybe just a rash or runaways. Kids get itchy feet. Right. A 5 year old in a toy car gets itchy feet.   What? A 7 year old trots down to Acapulco for a wild weekend? The boy’s father took it. The other one? Chief, there’s something terribly wrong here in Derry, and you know it. Hey. I’m the cop. You’re the librarian. Okay.   He is one of the 7 kids who have dealt with this evil force 30 years earlier. The the and I really think that the way that they structured this was just genius for, for TV.   Yes.   The fact that he’s the one that remembers it, and then the whole movie is him calling everybody else from the losers club, from this this group, and and we get to be just very briefly introduced to each of the characters, and we just get to very briefly see where they are in their adult life. But we kinda get a a pretty strong sense of where they are in their adult lives. And then we get to see each of their flashbacks, a, and their experiences with Pennywise. And it all comes together very neatly of how they came to be this group together. And I just think that the way that it is structured in that way as far as narrative technique just works really, really well. 

Todd:  Yeah. It does. And you’d have a couple different choices because the book follows a similar kind of narrative technique, except that the stories of the past and the present are very intertwined. So you’re constantly flashing back from the from the present to the past. Whereas in this, even though the the child parts are told in in flashback, it’s mostly child parts. We get the entire child of side of the story in the first, movie, half of the movie or whatever. And that’s that, you’re right, is genius, but yet we still, are getting the adults rounded up, and it’s getting through the, messy business of showing us the adults and where they are now. And it also adds a bit to the terror, right, because there there are these adults who are being called back after 20 some years or whatever, and they’re still they’re freaked out about the idea.   And so it does it does build some suspense then when we’re watching the child side of it. Like, it just makes it seem that much worse, what the kids are going through or what we imagine the kids are going to have to go through, what we’re going to see. 

Craig:  Well, and each time any one of them gets called, they answer the phone and and Mike, you know, says, hey, it’s me, Mike. Do you remember me? And again, I’m not gonna, you know, say that this is Oscar worthy acting on anybody’s part, but you always see, you always see this moment of remembrance that it just, it it’s, it hits them, you know, like a wrecking ball. Like, it it just comes back to them so quickly, and you see this look on their face. Yeah. You know, that that they’ve remembered this horror that they went through and for whatever reason, they have forgotten. Now, of course, it’s touched on much more in the book that it’s really the influence of this entity, it, that has made them forget. And the movie, you know, touches on that a little bit but not so much. But you get the sense that for whatever reason they really have forgotten and the remembrance of them just hits them of it, hits them so hard, and and as it would because everything that they went through was pretty horrific.   The first person that Mike calls is Bill, and Bill arguably, is the leader, of the group. He is a very famous author, based almost certainly on Stephen King himself. Stephen King does this all the time. He writes about writers all the time. He’s written a book called The Glowing, which sounds awfully a lot like The Shining. But anyway, he and his wife okay. So Bill is, the adult Bill is played by Richard Thomas who, people who are a little older than us would probably remember as John or John Boy Walton from the Waltons, and he is married to, Audra who is played by Olivia Hussey who was, yeah, famous for Romeo and Juliet, but then she was also in Black Christmas. We’ve talked about her.   She’s gorgeous. We love her. Yeah. They’re married, and she’s an actress, and they are adapting. He’s he’s working as, like, script supervisor or something on,   a film adaptation of one of his movies, and they’re in England.   It it appears that he’s very of one of his movies, and they’re in England. It it appears that he’s very successful, a very successful writer. He’s married to this famous, gorgeous actress, but he gets this phone call, and it flashes back to these 7 young people, you know, standing in this swampy area, which is we find out later is the barons, is what they call it in Derry. Yeah.   Bill, is that you? Sorry, Philip. Why know you? This is Mike Hallen, Bill, from Derry. Swear to me. Swear to me that if it isn’t dead, then I’ll come back. Sorry, Mike. For a minute there. You didn’t know who I was. For a minute there, I didn’t.   Bill, it’s back.   And he tells her because she says something like, well, I’ll go with you. And he says, no. No matter what, don’t come back. You have to swear to me that, you’ll stay here. But then, we get Bill’s back story, and it cuts back to what is probably the most iconic scene from this movie. It’s it’s the flashback, where Bill is sick. He’s probably 13, something like that, and he’s sick in bed, and his little brother, Georgie, who is played by just this, the cutest little guy you’ve ever seen. I I don’t know I don’t know what his name is, but he’s just got these round cheeks and dimples.   He’s just cutest little guy you’ve ever seen.   Please, Bill, tell me a story. Maybe later. The magic stone story. Please, Bill. Please. Go bug somebody else, you little cootie. I don’t feel so hot. Georgie.   For me? You made it for me? Can I go sail it?   Georgie takes the boat out and sails it down the gutters, and it’s really cute. And he’s,   ego excited. Yeah. Skip it alongside it. US Georgie,   or whatever he he calls it. SS Georgie, But it ends up, going into a, a sewer drain or or a gutter drain. 

Todd:  Mhmm. 

Craig:  Storm Craig. Exactly. And he’s like, oh, no. But, you know, he turns to walk away and then popping up in the storm drain is this clown.   Come on, Paco. Don’t you want a balloon? I’m not supposed to take stuff from strangers. My dad said so. Very wise of your dad, Georgie. Very wise indeed. I, Georgie, am Pennywise, the dancing clown. You are Georgie. So now we know each other.   He wrecked. I guess so.   And it’s Tim Curry. And again, I I could go on probably for a good half hour about Tim Curry. Tim Curry is a genius. Like, he he he’s just an amazing actor, and and more so than his acting, he just has a presence about him that is really indescribable unless you are familiar with him. I mean he is famous, of course for the Rocky Horror Picture Show which he was amazing in. Him as Pennywise in this movie is one of the most iconic horror villains of all time, in my opinion. He he played darkness in legend, which for whatever reason is, a somewhat, I guess, kind of reasonably unknown movie from the eighties, but he played, basically he played Satan, and and just oh my gosh. 

Todd:  Think about Clue. Oh, he’s great in Clue. 

Craig:  He’s amazing. He’s just he’s so Todd. And, you know, there’s not really much to him. You know, he looks like a creepy clown and most like, he looks like the clown that you would see with a bottle of whiskey and a cigarette on the corner. Yeah. It’s Krusty Cloud for soft butt. His eyes are all bloodshot. You know? He’s he’s a little bit older.   And and I read that he was really reluctant to take this role. And he wasn’t the only one that they had considered for this role. They they had considered Alice Cooper, 

Todd:  Oh, wow. 

Craig:  They had considered Malcolm McDowell, for this role. But when they when they came around to Tim Curry, they really wanted him and he was really reluctant to take it because he had just recently finished, well in the last several years at least, finished Legend, and the makeup process for that had been so intense and he was so, like it was miserable for him. He was reluctant to take this on because he was worried about the makeup. And so they compromised and said, Well, you know, we’ll we’ll keep it pretty simple. And they really did. I mean, you know, they they it really looks like they just used, you know, kind of clown pancake makeup on him. I don’t know if they did something to make his eyes super bloodshot, but his eyes are super bloodshot throughout. 

Todd:  He he really sells it. I mean, he really sells it. And I think that, that is what made this movie so scary for us. There’s something about his mouth, you know? Like Yes. He has a way of of, I I mean, and I think it’s just him. It’s the way he was born, but, like, the way that his mouth can go from small to big and the way that it it works, it it it just there’s it it always seems something sly and a little bit sinister behind it in so many of his characters, and so that comes through very clearly in this one. But, yeah, they were smart. They were gonna put prosthetics, like high cheekbones and a chin and all this stuff to try to make this this clown look like a a scary clown.   But I think it’s way more effective, and it really serves the story a lot better if he looks like Bozo the clown, you know, from down the street, and only at these certain moments through the movie, which is another thing that maybe is a little bit overplayed. You know, he gets these, like, green eyes and and fangs and kinda Yeah. Zoom in on that. It’s a kind of a a small transformation, but a but a big one. Because the kid, especially in this case, Georgi, he talks to him. He doesn’t seem that ex concerned that there’s a clown in the gutter. You know? He’s kind of taken by the clownness of him, and don’t want an evil looking clown. He’s not gonna be very seductive to a child. 

Craig:  Right. Yeah. And and you’re right. It’s something about his mouth. Like, he’s got just kind of this natural, like, his lips, like, I I get it. 

Todd:  Describe it. There’s no way to describe it. 

Craig:  You He’s got this kind of curve to like, he talks kind of out of one side of his mouth sometimes, and his lips just have this kind of really natural, but also really unsettling, almost like a snarl. Yeah. And then the kid starts to go away, but Pennywise says, but wait, don’t you want your boat? And he’s like, yeah, I want it. And Pennywise is like, well, take it. And he reaches down and Pennywise is saying, down here there’s like a whole circus and balloons. And Georgie says, do they float? And Pennywise says,   oh, yes. They float, Georgie. They float. And when you’re down here with me, you float star.   And he grabs his arm, and and we hear Georgi scream, and we see him scream. And that’s really all we see in the movie. I mean, it’s a made for TV movie. There’s only so much they could show us.   Yeah.   But the horror of it is there, and we find out later, we hear later, somebody else says that his arm was just ripped completely off. And, I feel like in the in the book, it was even more gruesome, but I I mean, that’s that’s what, 5 minutes into the movie. That’s right. And and I’m already horrified. Like, it’s it’s it’s so good. 

Todd:  It is. So so that’s that’s the one part, and so we get that. And then another thing that’s really smart about the structure of this film is that, these flashbacks are shown in sequence, and they had to do some finagling to to to make that happen. You know? So you call a person, and their flashback happens to be, a little further down, you know, the story of the kids. And I think that was another really wise move. If you try to go out of sequence too much like the book does, it’s very satisfying in a novel, but it’s not as easy to follow in a film. So Right. It’s good.   The next one that that he calls is the architect. John Ritter plays, Ben, and I love John Ritter. John Ritter seems to be a bit of a drunk, but he’s he’s a famous architect. Now all of these people have gone on to be famous, which is I think something that they just sort of gloss over in the movie, but in the book it’s significant. I have to say too with all these flashback sequences, I really think it’s just because they’re trying to cram so much into a short period of time, they all come across as pretty melodramatic. Yeah. You know, the Bill and Audra and their reactions to each other and all that just are a little too much. Ben is just a little too drunk, but anyway.   And he’s there with some girl. He gets the call and then he flashes back to this this bully named Henry Bowers, and Bowers is teasing him because he’s fat. So when he was a kid as he explains to his girlfriend, oh I used to be really fat. And that was that’s Ben’s thing, is that he’s fat. It although up by today’s standards he’s not fat at all. Ben is at school and he’s introducing himself. He’s new to town, he’s new to dairy, and he’s introducing himself to the class. And in the meantime, Henry Bowers is in the back making all these jokes and and she’s the teacher sends him to the to the principal’s office and his response is you’re dead, Batkid.   Yeah. And so we have a sequence where then he meets up with them After Ben runs into really briefly a girl, Beverly, who is a really cute girl that he likes, and she’s going to be the female in this group later on. He’s almost immediately smitten with her, and tries to go home, but he gets chased. He also writes her a note on a postcard. 

Craig:  He writes her a poem. Mhmm. 

Todd:  And he gets teased for that. Okay, so he gets pursued by Henry’s gang. He hides in a pipe, but then Bill and Eddie, happen to be down there in this Craig stream area, which they call the Barrens. It’s kind of the, down below the road. It’s it’s the wooded area, I guess, of town with this, canal running through it. And they’re talking about building a dam, and so Eddie terrorizes them a little bit. That’s when Ben meets up with those 2. Right? 

Craig:  Yeah. And that’s what all these flashbacks are about, really. It’s it’s about their own personal Mhmm. It it’s about their own personal interactions with it, but also about how they all come together. And and that’s just what it is. And you talked you you mentioned that he kinda he gets bullied by Henry Bowers. It’s actually really menacing. And even in the the movie, it’s very menacing.   It was even scarier, in the book. I mean, these aren’t just bullies like I’m gonna call you names and and maybe punch you or something. These are bullies like, I’m going to stab you. 

Todd:  Yeah. They’re like, totally psychopathic. Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. And and and, the book gets even darker, with all of that stuff. But the in the movie, you see, like, Henry is gonna try to carve his name into Ben’s gut, as a reminder, or a warning or a punishment or whatever it is. So these bullies really are very menacing. It’s it’s not just like, oh, you know, somebody called me fat Todd. You know, it’s notes. Somebody tried to carve their name into my gut Todd. 

Todd:  It’s a distinct difference. 

Craig:  Well, and I think that that’s important and maybe more so in the book than the movie. But even in the movie, it plays a part that, you know, these kids are facing adversity from some supernatural evil force that manifests itself as a clown. But that’s just one of their worries. You know, like, Henry Henry Bowers really and his gang are almost as as much of a concern and a threat to them as as Pennywise is. And and I feel like that’s conveyed better, in the book than the movie, but and and I think that that’s why again, haven’t watched the second part yet. So, I’ll I’ll make more judgment later. But I think that that’s why the first part is more effective is because kids are vulnerable. Adults can be vulnerable too, but you know, it just seems like adults have more weaponry at their disposal, Todd, to fight adversity and threats.   Kids are so vulnerable, and especially like you said, in the fifties or even the eighties, when we really had a lot of freedom. You know, we were running all around town unsupervised all time. They were, they’re very vulnerable, and, and they, and of course, in this circumstance, these kids don’t feel like, they feel like if they told adults that what was happening, that they wouldn’t be believed, and they’re right. And, and there are several times throughout the movie that they try to tell adults, try to tell maybe stretching it a little bit, but, you know, they they go to adults for help, and the adults are just oblivious to what is going on. At one point, Bill looks at a scrapbook, and he finds a picture of Georgie like a school picture. It winks at him, and then blood starts pouring out of the scrapbook. And he throws it down, and he screams. And his parents come in, and his mom picks it up, and she’s totally oblivious to the blood, and and he, of course, realizes that she’s oblivious.   At another point, Beverly, who we haven’t gotten to yet, is, the the girl in the group. She hears voices, children’s voices, coming out of the drainpipe of her bathroom sink, and then, a red balloon comes out of the drain and and, expands and then pops, and it’s full of blood, and it splashes all over her, and it splashes all over the room. And she screams for her dad who is abusive, and again, that’s highlighted more in the book, you see it a little bit in the movie, but he comes in and he’s looking in the sink and he’s got his hands on the sink, his hands are all in the blood but he’s obviously oblivious to it. And eventually, like, when he walks out, he, like, tweaks her chin and smears the blood on her chin. And so, the premise is that adults for whatever reason don’t see this. They like, they can’t see it. So these kids are alone. They’re on their own, and that vulnerability, I think, is really what makes that part of the book and the movie so scary.   Because I think when when we’re kids, we all feel like that. You know, adults can protect us in some ways, but in our imaginations or in our perceptions, there are some ways when, you know, adults can’t help. And it’s just a good story.   It is. 

Todd:  Well, they’re in their own world here, you know, they really are. And and again, the town is not going to help them. It’s it’s it’s against them almost as much as it as against them because it is really, you know, the town. So, Bev gets called Todd, and, like you said, there’s some flashback with her. As an adult, she’s a fashion designer, and she has an abusive husband named Tom because she had an abusive, you know, father, she ended up marrying an abuser, this is pretty common actually. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Ben tries to give her this poem, he slips it under the door of her house and knocks on the door and runs around the corner, and she gets it. She thinks it’s really sweet. 

Craig:  What you got there? Nothing. Let me see that. You’ve been doing something you shouldn’t. You’ve been fooling around with some boy. Poetry from some boy. I worry about you a lot, baby. Sometimes I worry a lot. Daddy, please.   Not even 12 and already running with some boy. Let me alone. You’re just letting me alone. Come here. 

Todd:  She runs off. Ben catches up with her cowering in a bush, and he takes her down and introduces her to the other 2. And then right away, Richie and Stan just happen to join them. 

Craig:  Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And and I I wanna mention some of these actors because, Beverly, as a child is played by Emily Perkins who went on to star in the Ginger Snaps trilogy, which I love, and and and she’s great. The adult Beverly is played by Annette O’Toole who is also a very recognizable person. The young, Richie is played by Seth Green, who I love from Buffy, but who has done a bazillion things and is still, you know, super successful. But you see that’s another thing about this movie. You know, it’s it’s from 1990, And some of the actors are unknown.   Like, the kid who played Stan played Stan and then never did anything else ever again. And the kid who played Ben, even though he’s he seems familiar, he really wasn’t in, very much. But some of these folks went on to do, some other big stuff. How about 

Todd:  how about the one who played Bill? He looks 

Craig:  Bill. Oh, yeah. He isn’t. That’s sad. Bill was played by Jonathan Brandes. He, took over the lead for Never Ending Story 2. One of his bigger movies was Ladybugs. He was also in the TV show, Seaquest, something or other.   He died. He hung himself in 2003, which was coincidentally also the same year that John Ritter died, of a heart attack. So now we have everybody together, and, you know, I I feel like I’m probably gonna be skipping over some stuff. Like, there’s there’s bonding stuff. Well, and and actually, no, we don’t have everybody because we don’t have Mike yet. But there’s bonding stuff, like, they they build the dam together, and there’s a, a cute little musical montage. And then they all go to the movies together. They go to see I Was a Teenage Werewolf and Eddie, accidentally knocks his popcorn off the balcony ledge, and it lands, of course, on, Bowers and his gang.   And so they they all run out and they run away. And I don’t even remember exactly how this happens, but I feel like it it coincides with, the Bowers group also bullying Mike. And and again, bullying, not just like call him names or whatever, but threatening to put a cherry bomb in his pocket. And and eventually, Mike runs away. They, they all end up at this rock quarry, and they have this big standoff against the bullies, and they win. And that’s, that’s really kind of how they all cement themselves together as a group, and, and it’s, it’s actually Bowers that gives them the name, the losers club, and they kind of own that, and take it, as their own, and refer to themselves as that. But it’s around that time that Bill confesses what has happened to him with Pennywise, and and they all share their stories of what has happened. And what Mike in the movie at this point, Mike has not had any, experiences with Pennywise.   In the book, there’s this really awesome scene with a giant bird, it’s really scary. But, in the movie he hasn’t had that yet. But, they, they, Mike’s dad is a historian, I guess. Or at least an amateur historian. And he knows the history of the Todd. And Mike has this scrapbook full of pictures, and he flips through all of these things. And you see every 30 years going back, I think Todd like the late 1800, where Pennywise appears in first, like, illustrations and then photographs, and then Pennywise reveals himself to the whole group. And that, to me, that stands out as one of the scariest scenes in in the movie. 

Todd:  Yeah. That was the one that scared the bejesus out of me when I was a kid is this photograph that they’re looking at comes to life, and at first it’s just, you know, carriages going down the street, and people walking around, there’s clearly a carnivore something going on, but Pennywise is flipping, doing back flips down the street closer and closer to the the frame of the of the photograph. 

Craig:  I’ll drive you crazy and I’ll kill you all. I’m every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dream come true. I’m everything you ever were afraid of. 

Todd:  And actually his hand comes out of the photograph. Yeah. That Yeah. It’s a pretty terrifying scene when I first saw it. And it’s interesting because and again deviates from the book because it has to. It really simplifies things, and one of the things that it simplifies is in the book, it’s really emphasized that Pennywise is more of a force. He chooses to show up as a clown, but that’s not all he does. He generally picks everybody’s biggest fear, and so, you know, Richie, he has a moment with a stovepipe.   I’m sorry. There’s a whole deal. I’m not gonna explain everything. I’m just gonna say one kid sees a bird, one kid sees a werewolf, one kid see you know, all everybody sees something different. But in the movie, they simplify that, and for the most part, every kid just sees Pennywise. And I think that was another smart move when you’re when you’re stretched for time and you’re trying to simplify the story, and you’re also trying to give them all a story to tell that’s similar. They don’t have to make 2 or 3 different leaps to get to the fact that all of their weird experiences have some connection. You just make that the cloud from the get go.   And so that creates some scenes that weren’t even in the book, that just kind of replaced them. For example, I believe it’s, Richie, who ends up or it’s either Richie or Eddie who end up in the showers at school. 

Craig:  It’s Eddie. Eddie’s in the shower and, like, the shower, you know, all the shower heads come out and kind of assault him or whatever. And then Penny Pennywise puts his hands up through a drain and stretches the drain out and comes up through the Craig. And my partner screamed.   And he said, write that down. So I so I have written in my notes, Alan’s scream. But but you’re but you’re you’re right. Yes. He   he can manifest into their darkest fears. I hear that they’re gonna explore it a lot more in in the remake, but I agree with you that I think that it was it was wise in in this context to to focus, to to give us a central villain. In the book, Pennywise can manifest into whatever he wants Todd. And he can in the movie Todd, he just doesn’t as much. But like at one point in the book, he he manifests as jaws in the in the river, like in the barons or whatever. And they don’t explore that much in the movie. But I think that for the purpose of the movie, it was smart to kind of give us a kind of a central villain with the clown. 

Todd:  Well, and there’s one other distinction there that I actually think would have been better if they had put it in the movie, and that is in the in the movie it kind of does this traditional horror film kind of thing where Pennywise just like appears and scares everybody. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  For each one, he’s he’s basically just exposing himself to them, like Right. It’s a pretty big deviation from the book. In the book, each of these encounters is supposed to result in the child’s death. Right. Pennywise is very definitely trying to kill these kids, and they managed to escape. And so the book tames that or the movie tames that down just a little bit, and I honestly think it it wouldn’t have been too hard, and it might have been just a little more intense and effective to to have gone that extra mile. But in this, you know, in this case, he’s just, hey, I’m Pennywise, and I’m gonna kill you eventually to to 

Craig:  each Right. Right. 

Todd:  Return. So, you know, I I wish it had gone just a little more for the gut, in that in that respect. 

Craig:  Yeah. And I agree with you, but watching the movie as a kid, and having not read the book, that didn’t bother me. I mean, he was so menacing. I mean, there’s really no explanation for why he would just be trying to scare them and not kill them. In fact, it almost seems like, why wouldn’t he? Especially if he knows or or he begins to realize that these kids are coming together as a unified force that is actually in in in the book, he he’s really never scared. Pennywise is never really scared. He he’s always confident that he will be able to take these kids out, or at least until the last minute. Yeah. 

Todd:  Until the 

Craig:  last minute. He’s never really threatened. He’s confident that he’s gonna be able to take them out. But yeah. Okay. You know, nitpicking, why would he just let them band together? But whatever. It didn’t bother me at the time. It doesn’t bother me now.   So Well, 

Todd:  and and you could also make another argument because and this is another line. I mean, it’s again, it’s heavily emphasized in the book. It’s just touched on with the line, but he says something about, how they taste so much better when they’re afraid. Because his whole thing is he literally, like, consumes the children, and so and and, like, children are supposed to taste better than adults because they have more pure fear and all that kind of thing. And so I guess you could make that argument. He’s just trying to fatten him up, you know, he’s just trying to scare him up. Sure. 

Craig:  Yeah.   That makes sense. After after they see him in the, in the scrapbook, Stan has been the one who has been reluctant to believe their stories, but, they get him to believe. So now they they all believe, and Bill, and the kid who plays Bill has this, you know, very touching moment where he kinda walks away from the group and and then he says,   help me. You killed my brother George, you bastard. Let’s see you now. Let’s see you now. It’s scared of us, you know? I can feel that. I I swear to Todd I can. I I wanna kill it.   They make a pact and they start to make a plan. We get, Stan’s phone call where he is living in some sort of, you know, lavish house and he and his wife are watching Perfect Strangers together. He’s the last one to get the call and we get to see the climax of the movie through his, his flashback. And what happens is that they, they plan this out, they, get slingshots, and they they, practice, and they find out that Bev, is a ringer, with a slingshot, like, she can she can nail her target every time. I think it’s, one of them, Richie, has some silver. He, he stole his mom’s earrings or something and, and melted down this silver, and they believe that silver kills monsters, And they end up all going down into the sewers, and and Henry Bowers, and his crew follow them. They’re they’re planning on getting their revenge, and I don’t know, you know, I don’t know if Henry is planning on killing them or what he’s planning on doing, but they’re all going down there. Bowers and his group, are the ones that end up getting getting taken out first.   They split up and and the one that splits off from them gets taken down by Pennywise first, and then another one of the other guy, from Bowers Group gets taken. And Pennywise takes a different form. We don’t really see it. It manifests itself mostly through light, these bright lights that are coming through these sewer pipes. And it’s really cool imagery because it’s the, the, the light is just, you can see that it’s progressing through the pipes, but it’s just streaming out of these small holes in the pipes. It’s really, it’s very scary and very menacing, and with the sound design, it works very well. And we get some POV shots from, the perspective of whatever it is, or as it’s manifested. And the way that I understood it is that when it’s in that light form, it’s kind of at its actual natural form.   Yeah.   And and we and we see it, you know, progressing through the pipes. Henry’s guys, and it gets, it doesn’t get Henry. Henry just sees it in all its glory. And because he sees it in all its glory, his hair turns completely white, and he’s just, like, stunned. Stung. Yeah. The kids find one of the the pom poms from the clown’s costume, so they know they’re on the right track. Stan, at some point, gets separated from them.   The Bowers group gets them for a little bit, but then they all end up back together after it has gotten the Bauer’s group in this very spooky, kind of central point in the sewers where there are tunnels going off everywhere. And it approaches, and at first, it kind of tries to trick or tempt some of them. Right? Like, it appears as Georgie   Yeah. Todd try to   kind of, tempt Bill. It appears as Bev’s dad to try to get her away from the group, but they stand firm. They hold hands, but then it gets really foggy in there, and somehow Pennywise gets himself in their circle and gets Stan and holds Stan up by his neck up against the wall, and Beverly tries to shoot it, with the the slingshot, but she misses. And then, Eddie approaches with his asthma inhaler and says, this is battery acid. And he sprays the clown’s face. And I guess the suggestion is that because the power of the kid’s belief is so strong, or because Pennywise believes in the power of their belief that it actually is like battery acid, and it like melts part of his face off. But eventually, Beverly with her very last shot, the very last piece of show silver she has, she shoots at it and it hits him in the corner of his head and part of his head breaks away, and that bright, bright light shines out. And he screams, and he pirouettes 

Todd:  That’s the best way to describe it. 

Craig:  Into the sewer drain. And and they they try to grab it to keep it from going down, and it sounds like it’s dying. So they all go out. Fortunately, in the movie, they choose to skip the child orgy 

Todd:  scene. Yeah. Imagine that on network television. Right. That one comes out of left field in the book. I’ll tell you that. 

Craig:  That’s that’s a whole another discussion for a whole another time, but they skip over it in the movie fortunately, and they get out and then we revisit that flashback that we had already seen where Bill says, we hope it’s dead, but if it comes back, promise me we’ll we’ll come back. And then it cuts back to Stan’s, current day, and his wife goes up looking for him, and he’s in the bathtub. And rather than going back to face it, he has killed himself. He’s he’s slit his wrist in the bat in the bathtub, and, he’s he’s written it in his blood on, the shower wall. And and that’s that’s that’s where the first part ends. 

Todd:  And that’s a really effective ending. I remember being absolutely freaked out by that, by that ending when I was a kid. But I I have to say the fight, the battle with him is it’s it it just highlights the difficulty of taking 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  You know, of of of taking something that’s written and and translating to the screen, especially considering what was written. What’s written is a very, supernatural kind of fight. Yeah. They’re almost kind of like going into this other dimension of sorts to Yeah. What it is and and even even reading it, you’re kind of confused as to what’s going on. 

Craig:  Well, yeah. Bill Bill is like floating through space and there’s the giant turtle. There’s the 

Todd:  turtle talking to him. 

Craig:  There’s there’s all kinds of weird stuff. Yeah. 

Todd:  And then, of course, they’re limited by budget Todd, what they can do with the movie. So, again, this was one of those same situations where they kept him as Pennywise for the most part, so that he was a little more vulnerable in that form anyway, and they they kinda dispatch him in that in that manner. 

Craig:  The final battle of the first part of the movie is actually more similar to an early bat earlier battle that they have with them in the book. The the the scene in the book where they’re in the old abandoned house and, he appears as the leper and the werewolf. The final scene in the first part of the movie is very similar to that. Much more similar to that than it is to the actual, final battle with them, as kids, in the movie. But I actually like this. I like that they face off against Tim Curry, in the first part of the movie. We’re gonna talk about the second part of the movie for next week, but the the final battle, in the the second part of the movie, the climax of the whole miniseries is really what left many people very dissatisfied, and understandably so. We’ll talk more about that, but, I liked that we got to see the kids showdown with Pennywise in his clown form as Tim Curry for the climax of this first part of the movie. 

Todd:  Yeah. And I also like the fact that this allowed them to highlight an idea. It’s not really it’s an idea in the book, but in the movie, it kind of becomes the central notion that, their their belief, or they can use these aspects of their personality as their strengths. So, like, the kid who’s always got the asthma inhaler, oh, it’s battery ass and he sprays and it hits him. The girl who’s a good shot, you know, she hits him or whatever. The kid who has to deal with a werewolf or whatever has contributed the silver, to shoot him with. And all of these things, have an effect and contribute. So it’s almost like almost every kid has a hand in, dispatching him, at least in this in this first half.   I don’t really remember how they do it in the second half, so I’m I’m looking forward to that next discussion. But and I felt that was the way that it was going in the book, and it turns out to be not that way at all. So yeah. So for again, movies have to sort of simplify things and have to really coalesce a little bit more and get a lot more together in in a shorter amount of time. They don’t really have the time to go off on all these crazy tangents, And, and so I thought, yeah, it worked. Was it the best choice they could have chosen? I don’t know. 

Craig:  I don’t know. And we’ve already talked for far too long. So I’ll I’ll talk about my hopes and expectations for the sequel next week. 

Todd:  Right. Agreed. Agreed. Okay. So, we’ll look forward to meeting up with you again next week to conclude it as we watch the second half and talk about the entire film. Thank you for listening. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend. You can find us on iTunes and Stitcher and Google Play.   You can also find us on Facebook, like us there, leave us a comment, let us know what you thought. And until next week, I’m Todd 

Craig:  And I’m Craig.  

Todd:  With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week we go back to the classics. The quality of this surreal French film stunned us both – even Craig, who admits he is not usually as interested in “the oldies”.

Episode 93, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Today’s film is the 1960 French film Eyes Without A Face. How’s your French, Craig? 

Craig:  Nonexistent. Oh. Nonexistent is how my French is. 

Todd:  I thought maybe 

Craig:  So these names are gonna be fun. 

Todd:  Yeah. I know. I was just thinking that myself. I thought maybe you could pronounce, like, the original title or something. Leosan 

Craig:  No way. 

Todd:  Or something like that. Yeah. No. I I took Spanish. 

Craig:  Me too. 

Todd:  Well, this this is a film I’ve been wanting to see for quite some time. It, it’s a classic, and it’s on many people’s lists as a sort of top 100 horror films. And I really didn’t know anything about it going in, except for the iconic poster art, which is like a shadow of a woman’s head except for a big white blank spot where her face should be. And that’s where the title of the movie is written in. So it it does. It looks so sixties. The movie, however, is in black and white. The cinematography is very crisp, very stark, very film noir, actually, in many respects.   And if you put this in context, this came out about the same time as Psycho did in the United States and Peeping Todd, in the UK. So if you see Psycho, Peeping Tom, and France, releasing its Eyes Without A Face, this is sort of a worldwide trilogy of of shocking horror films for the 19 sixties, I suppose you could say. Mhmm. But it I think it came out actually in the 62 in the US. Yeah. Really interesting movie. Well, what did you think, Craig? Have you known did you know much about this movie going into it? 

Craig:  Nope. I didn’t know anything about it, and, you this was this week was kind of a last minute decision, and and you just kinda said, let’s do this because whatever. And, I I frankly, I wasn’t really looking forward to it. You know, as much as I can, I appreciate films like Psycho and and whatnot, and I do really like some of those movies? I’m not one to typically dip my toe into these much older films. It’s just not usually what I seek out, And so I wasn’t particularly looking forward to watching it, but I was really pleasantly surprised. And you already mentioned the cinematography. I was just super, super impressed with the cinematography in this movie. It looked like it could have been shot a lot of the time, not all of the time, but a lot of the time in the movie, it looked like it could have been shot today.   I mean, it was it was so clean and and crisp and and, and I, I don’t know how else to describe it. It is black and white, but it looks like something that almost could have been shot digitally. It doesn’t even almost look like film. It’s so clean. I was just impressed with that from the get go. Beyond that, I thought it was a a really interesting story. So, yeah, I I am gonna be praising this as we go along. 

Todd:  Yeah. I think this movie visually struck an interesting balance. At times, it almost didn’t make sense. It it was kind of surreal at moments. It reminded me a little bit actually of Crimson Peak just in some of the visuals. We’ll probably talk about as we go on, but they’re just some of a lot of the action focuses around a mansion or a house here. And at times, it looks modern, and at other times, it looks very gothic depending on what room you are in the house. It’s it’s it’s interesting.   And I think that that’s intentional. It’s to kinda throw you off balance, but it also seems to hearken back to a lot of the universal monster movies in a way. Now, I mean, this isn’t like a universal monster movie. It’s much more creepy and subtle than it is trying to be overtly scary. But the plot is is Sure. Is relatively simple. Well, it starts out with a woman speeding, headlong down the down the highway. And, she’s nervous.   It’s dark, and truck comes up behind her and passes her. She sees the headlights there. And then as she adjusts her rearview mirror and this is the first time we see a mirror in the movie, but it’s not gonna be the last because mirrors are kind of thematic visual element through this movie. She adjusts her mirror, rearview mirror, and you see in the back seat, there’s a what looks like maybe somebody’s sleeping. We later find out it’s a body. It’s a body that she pulls over and dumps in the river. And immediately, we get another scene of a professor who’s lecturing about hemo what was it called? Hemo tography? 

Craig:  Oh, gosh. No. Heterograft? Heterografts. Yes. 

Todd:  Which would be Yeah. Skin grafts, basically. 

Craig:  Well, yeah, live tissue transplants is what is what he says. 

Todd:  That’s right. That’s right. He’s lecturing in this very classic almost again, looks like looks like he’s lecturing in the in the Louvre or in a a castle or something for a very posh, pompous crowd. And, Right. And again, he’s talking about the breakthroughs that he’s had of this with animals and whatnot. And as he walks out, people are kind of looking on him with some pity. He he doesn’t actually seem like a very happy guy and he doesn’t throughout the whole movie he’s pretty stoic in fact it’s really hard to get a grip on what’s going on in his head throughout most of this movie, which is part of what makes it so interesting, I think. He will later find out that this guy is a bit of a mad scientist type character, but, again, he is not drawn like a crazy mad scientist, one dimensional kind of archetype.   He’s a doctor, And he’s clearly been doing this research, but then he’s also his research is a lot of it’s happening at his house, and it’s a little more sinister that we soon discover. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And as they as he walks out, these, ladies say, he’s he just hasn’t been the same since his daughter. 

Craig:  Disappeared, right. 

Todd:  So, that’s that’s how it kicks off. It actually really kicks off with a lot of mystery. It it reminded me a little bit of Hitchcock here at this way. 

Craig:  Yes. 

Todd:  This guy, his missing daughter, you’re starting to make some connections there, but you’re still not quite sure what it is. It really takes right off, I think, and grips you right from the beginning with the plot. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. And that opening scene that you were talking about with the woman driving down the street was really super reminiscent of one of the opening scenes of Psycho where Marion Crane is driving down the street and because she’s just stolen all this money and she’s paranoid and, and it, it seems, you know, very similar to that.   And so   I was thinking this was gonna be really Hitchcock ian, and and in a lot of ways, I would say that it is. You know, it doesn’t have exactly his style. Hitchcock had a really, specific style, and and this doesn’t necessarily match up with that exactly, but there are definitely similarities. And and yeah. You know, I had read I I read a lot about this movie before I actually watched it, so I knew what was going on. But if you hadn’t read what was going on, you would probably, you know, it’s it’s mysterious. From that lecture, he gets called to the morgue. Before he gets there, we get these investigators talking about they found this Todd, they think that it’s probably this doctor’s daughter because this woman that they found doesn’t have a face.   You know, we just get little details thrown in here and there, but it appears that the doctor’s daughter was in some sort of car accident, and her face was burned. And, these these detectives say all of that, the car wreck plus the fire plus the fact now that the body has been immersed in water for a long time and rats have gotten at it and stuff, it’s hard to identify. But they they believe that it’s probably this girl because they know that this girl, they say her face was an open wound. And so they think that it’s her, so that’s why they call him. But they also think that it might be this other missing girl because she kind of matches this other missing girl description. But the doctor gets there first and says, Oh, yeah. You know, that’s that’s her. That’s my daughter.   And he even meets the father of the other missing girl outside and and they have, kind of a discussion. And the other guy, of course, is grieving, but the doctor says, Well, at least you still have hope. I don’t still have any hope. But then he goes home, to his villa.   It’s this   huge, it’s this huge, gorgeous, gorgeous mansion, and he goes upstairs and we see that he converses with his daughter who is not dead, but he has taken the opportunity to identify this other girl, as his dead daughter so that people will stop questioning, you know, where is this missing daughter or whatever. And as it turns out, what’s going on is he and his assistant Louise, his nurse or secretary or whatever she is, they have been well, the girl that was found in the river, they had taken and tried to perform a face transplant for his daughter, but it had been unsuccessful. And and that’s really kind of the premise of the movie, that, you know, that’s that’s what’s going on. This this doctor wants desperately to give his disfigured daughter, a new face, but he has been unsuccessful, but they are continuing to try. In order to do that, they have to have donors. And Louise really is kind of the hunter or scout, for these donors, and that’s that’s what kinda goes on for the rest of the movie. 

Todd:  Yeah. And she must have had an accident or something of her own because it turns out that she is the first and only successful transplant that he’s done. And so her you know, she’s kind of his sidekick in this way. She’s the Igor to this doctor Frankenstein or whatever you wanna say. Right. Because she’s grateful to him for having successfully performed this. I wonder if maybe she’s also his lover. It’s hard to say because apparently his wife has also had also died.   So it’s really just Yes. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Doctor and Louise and this daughter. And when we go upstairs and we meet the daughter, she’s, you know, face down in the bed. And this is another thing I think the movie does really well is you just wanna see what this girl looks like. 

Craig:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  And and the camera keeps changing angles on you so that you can’t. And, you know, when Louise comes in and chats with her, she brings in this mask, and she puts this mask on the girl. And for most of the movie, what you see is this girl with this mask on her face. And the way the mask is, it it fits very well. In fact, I bet I bet if you were to go through and and actually see how it was done, I’m sure that they just caked a bunch of latex on top of this woman’s actual face, until it all hardened and then just said, you know, don’t move your mouth. Because it’s like if the phantom of the opera had a whole mask instead of a half mask. Right. It it you know, it’s it’s this pure white, very, I would say, attractive in its own right, but extremely creepy because it’s it’s so pure, and it’s so white, and it’s so form fitting, and that it really emphasizes her eyes, that there’s something underneath because her eyes are big and open peeking out of that mask. 

Craig:  It’s terrific. It’s fantastic. It’s a great mask and it’s actually really convincing. Like, you know, if, if they weren’t on this mission to do an actual face transplant, like if this woman was really disfigured, she could potentially wear this mask and be pretty passable, in public. If you actually got face to face with her and were talking to her, you would clearly be able to see that it’s a mask because the lips don’t move very much, when when she talks. But if she just had to casually, you know, go through public, she, she, she might go largely unnoticed. I mean, it’s, it’s a really good mask. It’s reminiscent of Michael Myers’ mask from Halloween because, John Carpenter has said on record that he was inspired, by this mask for the Halloween mask.   He for for Michael Myers’ mask, he wanted it to just be kinda stark white, and, and you definitely can see, the connection there. But I was just so impressed. I was like, I don’t know who the special effects people were. I don’t know who the makeup people were, but it looked great and it’s haunting. It’s really spooky. And you’re right, it totally emphasizes her eyes. And this actress, I didn’t write her name down because all of these actors and actresses are French people who I’ve never heard of before, and I know nothing else about them. But this actress has these great big eyes, and the mask really emphasizes that.   And it looks great. It’s it’s not it’s really not scary at all. I mean, there’s actually kind of something beautiful about it. Like you said, when we first see her, she’s Todd down in the bed and you just wanna see and you just wanna see. And she doesn’t have the mask on at that point, but the dad says to her, You really need to get in the habit of wearing your mask all the time. And when Louise comes in, she puts the mask on her. And that’s the first time you see her. And despite the fact that you know that underneath she’s disfigured, there’s still, you know, beauty, to to her appearance.   And that I think was really the first moment in the movie where I was really intrigued and thought, wow, you know, this is this is something interesting. 

Todd:  Yeah. And it’s a it’s a beauty kind of like a porcelain doll. She’s very doll like when she goes about. Yes. Because as soon as the mask goes on her and we see her, then she starts what I would term creeping around the house. 

Craig:  Yeah. She does a lot she does   a lot of haunting around the house. And and you said doll like, and I thought the same thing. Throughout the whole movie, she’s dressed in these, you know, if you’re into fashion and clothes, these gorgeous, gorgeous, costumes that really look like they were made for dolls. And and she looks like a doll. And I guess these were made by some fancy designer and and it kinda looks like that, but it really does emphasize the doll like nature of of this this girl. 

Todd:  One of the things that she remarks to her secretary is that, you know, he’s taken all of mirrors out of the house yet and on everything that can can give any kind of reflection so that I can’t see myself. But I can see myself occasionally when I’m looking out the window. I can catch glimpses of of my reflection, and I’m not abs absolutely certain what she was talking about there. Was she talking about the the panes of the window itself? She was 

Craig:  just talking about anything reflective, like they’ve they’ve tried to protect her from her own reflection, but she can still see it. And she says, you know, she can’t bear to look at her face be because she’s it horrifies her, but the mask horrifies her even more. Yeah. Which is interesting, you know, eventually, for just a brief moment and really only in semi focus, we do see her face and and she is, you know, it’s devastating the damage that’s been done to her face. I mean, she’s completely burned. I mean, the title of the movie is Eyes Without A Face and that’s what it looks like. And we never see it in clear focus and we only see it very briefly, but it is pretty repulsive. But it’s interesting that she says, I hate seeing my own face.   It it it horrifies me, but the mask horrifies me even more. And I think that that’s really the trajectory of her character. I mean, she she just can’t stand to be what they are trying to make her be, and and that comes into play later on. 

Todd:  Yet she’s oddly complicit in the whole thing, and that’s another really intriguing part of this. You know? Like Yes. And and and and the mask doesn’t help either. Like, the mask, it just looks again, it’s it has a beauty to it, but it also has this sort of detached, cold, unfeeling look to it. And in a in a way Yes. That’s the sense that you get about her character as she’s walking along. She she’s either in a stupor or she just doesn’t barely reacts to anything that that’s happening around. There there’s like a I don’t know.   And I think it’s just something you paint onto that mask, but like like more of a curiosity than anything else as she just wanders around this house that she presumably has known since birth, like touching the furniture, walking from room to room, almost like she’s seeing it all for again for the first time. And she explores this house, and she goes down into the depths of it. And, again, it’s Mhmm. This is this is a mansion. It’s big. It’s it’s beautiful. You don’t really get a sense of the whole thing, but there are some pretty iconic aspects to it that that we pick up in, for example, when the doctor first comes in. Another thing that adds to some intrigue and some mystery is, he pulls into his car into the garage, And as he opens the doors to the garage, you hear these these dogs barking.   It’s like a whole bunch of dogs barking. He pulls the car in and then closes the garage door. And as he’s walking through the walking out the garage door, it it really takes its time, this movie, with this guy walking around and this woman walking around. It really lingers in these places for a long time. You know, a lot of movies, they cut out the scenes of people walking from place to place. It’s just like, oh, if you’re if you’re downtown and then you need to be uptown, the guy walks out the door, and the next shot is the guy walking in the door uptown, you know. It doesn’t show the person getting into the car, driving down the road, pulling out in front of the shop, getting out of the car, walking to the shop, then finally walking through the door, But this movie does that. It does that a lot, but it always does it in a way that makes you feel like there’s maybe something significant here.   Either it’s communicating something about the character or about the setting or adding a little bit more mystery. And in this case, this whole trip that this doctor takes, coming home, parking his car in the garage, finally walking up to see this daughter you’re just going, what is going on here? Because you hear the dog’s barking. And as he walks through, you you think maybe the dog’s barking is gonna get louder. Like, maybe he’s getting closer and closer to it, but as he shuts the door behind him, the sound gets more and more faint. So you’re like, wow. There must be more to this house that I don’t even know that I’m going to discover later. And so, again, just within the first 10, 15 minutes of this movie, it just seems like this is a world full of mystery, I think. 

Craig:  Dr. Yeah. Yeah. And you oh, I do Todd. And and the house, you know, like I said before, we get exterior shots of the house and it’s this huge, gorgeous, gorgeous estate. But you’re right, like the the geography of it, I think is significant because the daughter’s name is Christiane and, to get to her, they have to go up multiple flights of stairs. It’s kind of like she’s the princess in the tower. Yeah.   And then and and then the horrors of the movie take place in the depths of the house. Like they have to go down into the basement, into the cellar, into these likes, he’s got a secret operating room down in the cellar. And so I feel like, you know, that that geography really works. It makes it feel almost like a fairy tale where you’ve got the princess in the tower and then you’ve got the dungeon where all the scary things happen. And it’s it’s really effective, I think. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and and so her walking around the house is really just exploring this this whole this whole area, and she does. Like you said, she goes into, a room, and there’s a mirror painted black. She goes a little bit further down. You start to hear the dogs barking faintly again. There’s another thing happening, in parallel with this. The the secretary, I think her name was Louise. Right? 

Craig:  Louise. 

Todd:  She’s off, finding another woman, another young girl. Right. And you can see that they’re targeting girls with blue eyes. So that that’s Well, 

Craig:  you can’t see it because it’s black. Yeah. Exactly. You can’t see you can’t see it because it’s black and white,   but they make sure to, inform us at some point that they’re that they are looking for a particular type of girl. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And it’s it’s a girl who shares the same kind of beauty as Christiane. You know, they want somebody who, is is similar to her. But yeah, Louise and and this woman, I have no idea. The history with the doctor and Louise is mysterious. She keeps saying things like, I always will remember that I owe you because you gave me my face. We don’t know what happened, and and we have, you know, he keeps saying that like he he wants desperately to succeed at this face transplant, but he he doesn’t know if he can. So I didn’t get the sense that necessarily he had given Louise a face transplant, but somehow he had given her some sort of reconstruction surgery and she feels obligated to him. But she, surgery and she feels obligated to him.   But she she’s an older woman. And when I say older, I don’t know. She’s probably in her forties, but she’s gorgeous too. But, but she’s going around hunting, is what I kept putting in my notes, you know, like she’s, she’s stalking these girls, you know, she stalks this girl Edna for a while and, you know, she kind of finds out that Edna’s new in Paris and and she needs a room and eventually she connives and and tricks Edna into kind of a friendship, and then she eventually gets her back to the house. And I loved that scene. It was really suspenseful. Like, obviously this girl Edna has kind of come to trust this older woman who has befriended her, But eventually Louise says, oh, I found you a room. Edna doesn’t have a place to stay.   So she said, oh, I found you a room. I’ll take you there. And she drives her to this estate. And I love that scene because, Edna is clearly discomforted. You know, Like, she she’s nervous. You know? It’s Yeah. Like, why are you driving me out into the country? Like, this is totally weird.   Yeah.   And I thought that that was played really, really well, and it was good suspense. 

Todd:  You know, again, there are these flashes of these other horror movies kind of going through my head as we’re watching this, and this this was almost like a hostile type situation in a way. This girl 

Craig:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  Country is is pulled in by this woman, and she’s driving around. As you said, even when she’s driving down the road, this girl does not look comfortable even though she’s not saying anything. And she’s like, yeah, we’re we’re really far out here, aren’t we? This is is a little farther from the city, and the woman says, oh, well, I’m taking you the long way. And then, as they pull up to a, you know, a train station and wait for the train to go by, she says, see, here’s the Craig. It’s gonna take you into Paris. It’s only 20 minutes. Isn’t that great? She takes her further in there, and it’s just these it’s just it’s just one thing after another that, she she takes her out of the car, and this woman sees this this mansion. Again, she seems kinda confused, but, she walks in up to it, and it’s completely dark until she steps onto the porch.   And suddenly, all the lights come on, and the girl kinda comes back. And when the door opens, it opens, and the doctor is just standing there, just standing there 

Craig:  in the hallway. Framed in the doorway. 

Todd:  Like, he’s waiting for it. She walks in, and then she closes the door, and the woman’s asking questions. And as they’re talking, like, Louise is closing the curtains behind her. It’s just it the doctor’s offering her a drink, and she’s saying, no. I don’t want a drink, and she sits down, and he does pour her a drink, and then with the other hand, just slaps a ragged chloroform over her face. But it’s so suspenseful. Like, you just well, you know this girl is doomed. I mean, there’s there’s not that much suspense there, but it is it is so, well executed the way that this this scene plays out.   I just loved it. But, again, it was it was scary. And so when he when he does chloroform her and drag her off, they drag her into his his dungeon area, into his operating room, which we don’t see that. We haven’t seen the operating room yet, but we will in a minute because Christiane comes walking down after they’ve kind of, I don’t know, gone to sleep or gone out or something like that, and she starts probing through the house. 

Craig:  No. Hold on. Hold on. This is the I I sorry. I I just wanted to interrupt you at this point because I thought that this part, if there was any flaw in this movie that I would identify, it would be at this point because Christiane follows the doctor and Louise down into the basement and they take Edna in and deposit her and then they come immediately back out. And then Christy Anne goes into the lab or whatever, and Edna is entirely prepped for surgery. 

Todd:  Yeah. That’s 

Craig:  true. Like, in the in the 15 seconds that they were in there, they had stripped her naked, strapped her to bed, thrown a sheet over her. She, like, she was totally ready to go. 

Todd:  Oh, that’s right. And And the and the doctor came out and said, I think I’m gonna have some dinner first, and then we’ll go in and take into the surgery. Right? 

Craig:  Well yeah. And and he also says, which I found really spooky, he says, This time I’m gonna have to take off a bigger piece and I’m gonna have to do it all in one piece, not in sections. Just those words, are creepy. But you had mentioned earlier that, Christiane is oddly complicit in this and I thought that was weird Todd. Like when she followed them down there and she sees this girl, I mean she sees them carrying Edna into the operating room and then she goes in when they’re not there and she sees Edna in there, and I initially thought, Oh, she’s going to secretly try to help Edna escape. But no, she doesn’t at all. She is complicit in Todd. And I think that that makes her character intriguing and strange.   You know, I don’t know how to feel about this girl. I wanna like this girl, but at the same time, she’s selfish. 

Todd:  It’s what it comes down She’s selfish. At the very least, you wanna feel sorry for her. Right? 

Craig:  Yeah. Right. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and and it is almost like the she doesn’t not only not help this woman, but well, she goes in and she sees the woman on the table, and then she wanders a little further and we see the dogs barking. 

Craig:  Yeah. Because the dog kennel is connected. 

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. 

Craig:  I love that. The dog can   the dog kennel is directly adjacent to this the operating room. 

Todd:  Right. 

Craig:  And it’s this huge dog kennel. 

Todd:  But it’s so it’s such a weird dog kennel. I mean, it’s got these odd cages in there. It looks like some would have a medieval torture chamber, you know? 

Craig:  Right. Right. Well, and of course, you know, here I’m a huge dog lover, and and Christianne was in there. She goes in there and I didn’t know what to expect, but she she loves on all the dogs. It’s actually really cute, you know, it’s these huge, huge dogs that are obviously guard dogs or whatever, but Christian clearly, you know, has a friendly relationship with them and and they, you know, she pets them and they love on her and stuff. All the while, although, and that’s nice and I feel like that says something about her character, but as a dog lover, dogs don’t like masks. Like masks freak dogs out, so these must have been really well trained dogs, or they must have spent time acclimating them to this girl in a mask, because dogs do not like that. You know, they they like to see people and see expression and and masks and stuff usually freak them out.   But it’s actually, it’s kind of a sweet scene and it does endear you, the viewer Todd her. I, I feel like they’re trying to show that she’s a gentle person, 

Todd:  moment she until the the moment she’s done with the dog, she goes back in the room and starts staring at this woman, and she takes off her fit her mask and stands over the woman until she wakes up so that she can look at her face and scream. So Yeah. In the one one the one respect, you’re like, oh, this must be a gentle person. But then you’re wondering if she’s gonna set this woman free, and instead, she kind of terrorizes her a little bit, you know? 

Craig:  I didn’t get that that was intentional. I I don’t know. May maybe it was, I but I didn’t think she was trying to scare the girl. I’m not sure why she took her mask off, but I didn’t get that it was, oh, I’m gonna scare this, this poor girl. I thought that, you know, she was just kind of looking over her and the girl happened to wake up and she was horrified, But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe she did wanna show the girl what she really looked like and and I don’t know. 

Todd:  Yeah. I don’t know either. It’s it’s really hard to say because, like you said, we we only get little glimpses into her personality, and it there’s a lot unknown of unknown right there. But then the next bit we get is, something that was a little more gruesome than I think either of us were expecting in a movie of this age. 

Craig:  Yes. 

Todd:  And that was we pretty much get to see the entire facial operation on this girl. Yeah. From the drawing, the pencil around the face Todd marking the spots to cutting with the scalpel and it’s bleeding as he’s cutting all the way around Todd the laborious, like, lifting the skin up all around and they’re clamping it. He He even gets interrupted, I think, by a phone call and has to run run out for a minute and come back in where they just leave the clamps hanging. You get to see the whole thing happen, and then finally they lift the face off of this, off of this woman, and you get to see the blood stuff underneath her for a split second before they cut away. That was, again, just this movie really, really draws out these scenes way more than you would expect. 

Craig:  Yes. Oh my gosh. That scene went that scene went on for much longer than I expected it to and it was gruesome and it was really, really well done. Like when the doctor was cutting into this woman’s flesh, it looked pretty real for the most part.   Yeah.   Now when he actually when he started Todd to actually peel it off, you could tell that it was some sort of prosthetic, but it looked really good. Like 

Todd:  It did. 

Craig:  I I I mean, if if you weren’t looking at it with the critical eye, I mean, if you were willing to suspend your disbelief, it looked really, really, really good and it was gross and it went on for a long time. And I guess, you know, when this movie came out, it passed the censorship boards or I don’t know, whatever it is, the rating system, in France. But it also got a lot of criticism specifically because of this scene because it was so gruesome. And when it was originally released in the United States they cut it all up, they gave it a different title, they called it, the horror chamber of doctor Faustus. Mhmm. And and they greatly reduced that scene and they took out a bunch of other stuff. They took out any scenes that made the doctor seem at all, sympathetic. Again, if we’re talking about the the quality, of this film, you know, I think this scene, you know, deserves applause.   I mean, good gracious, you know? Like, just just the the the length of it and and and just it felt very uncomfortable because it went on for so long and it and it wasn’t you know it’s not like it was cutting to close shots and then long shots you know it was just we were in frame watching this guy cut this girl’s face off, and it was it was really unsettling. I I was impressed. Yeah. Especially for 1960. For 

Todd:  sure. Right? Very clinical too. Again, everything’s so clean in this movie. Even when you’re seeing blood, it’s it’s happening here in this really clean sequence, j just as clean as the mask that the other woman wears. It’s all very creepy, and they do he does the transplant. It supposedly, you know, at least it takes, and the woman, it ends up in bandages, so you can only see her eyes. And Right. Edna comes in, I’m sorry, the nurse, slash secretary, whatever, comes in and, brings her some Todd, and Edna’s ready because she is pretending to be asleep, but she ends up knocking her over the head with a bottle and runs out.   And, of course, I’m thinking, yeah. Of course, she goes up the stairs and not 

Craig:  out the door. Right. She tried to go out the front, but she couldn’t. 

Todd:  Yeah. Anyway, she runs upstairs, and they chase after her, but they hear a scream. And by the time they get up to the top, she has jumped out of the window and committed suicide. And I guess that was suicide unless she tried to climb out, but I got the impression was that she couldn’t bear to live with herself anymore and and through I no. Who knows? It’s really up to interpretation, I suppose. 

Craig:  Right. See and I kind of interpreted it different. I I thought that it was an escape attempt, but she had just died from the fall. But this is this is where things for me and I understand that they somehow had to wrap this up, but this where for me things kinda started to feel a little bit convoluted. Uh-huh. Because we we see Edna’s friend, reports, her disappearance to the police and apparently Edna had told her that she had befriended this older woman and and, Edna’s friend says, oh, and she said that this woman always wore this pearl choker. And of course Louise does always wear this pearl choker because it’s what covers the scar from her surgery. It’s it’s it’s almost disappeared, but it’s still there.   And then it becomes, as does Psycho, to be fair, it becomes kind of a dete- it becomes kind of a detective drama. And, we we failed to mention before that Christiane had a fiance who, she from time to time calls, but she doesn’t say anything. And I’m getting a little bit ahead of myself because it appears that the face transplant has worked, And we see this dinner scene where we see Christiane with a very beautiful porcelain flawless face, and her dad, the doctor says to her, you know, you can have a whole new life. You can have a new name and a new identity. And he says, won’t that be fun? I just thought that was so funny.   That’s right.   You’ve been through all this horrible stuff and but I’ve given you a new face, and now you can have a new identity. Won’t that be fun? 

Todd:  She’s like, well, what about Jacques? You know, what about Jacques, my fiance? And he’s like, yeah. That will be a bit of an issue. 

Craig:  But I 

Todd:  guess we’ll find a way to tell him or something like that. I don’t know. He he was just willing to kinda let that one go, but she’s not. Like you said, she keeps calling him and hanging up, and, that’s a little bit mysterious because at first, we’re not we don’t know who she’s calling. Again, another layer of intrigue in the movie. You’re right. It it at this point, it does get a little a little convoluted because the boyfriend, slash fiancee, Jacques, happens to be in the police state no. Was he in the police station before, or did he happen to be there and overhear the pearl necklace thing? 

Craig:  Well, what okay. Before we get to that, there’s this dinner where it appears that her face is okay, but at the end of the dinner, the doctor gets up and kisses her on the forehead and then looks at her, and you can tell that he’s concerned. 

Todd:  That’s right. 

Craig:  And he goes outside and the secretary is like, Why are you worried? And he’s like, I’m not. And she’s like, I’ve known you a long time. I can tell in your face that something’s wrong. And, he says, I’ve failed. And then what again is another one of my favorite sequences of the movie, we just get these, photographs, a series of photographs of her face deteriorating, of her face rejecting the transplant, and and it’s gradual and we only see like 4 or 5 photographs, but, it’s pretty gruesome. We see that, her body has rejected, the transplant. But once her body has rejected the transplant, she calls Jock again. And this time, instead of not saying anything, she says his name.   And again, this seems kind of convoluted to me, but that’s enough for him to go to the police. Yeah. Just to say, I know it was her. I recognize her voice. And of course, the detectives are like, okay, whatever, she’s dead. So it was probably just a prank call. But then that kind of meanwhile, in the detective agency, the other detective is interrogating this other girl and after Jacques leaves, the other detective comes over and says, oh, I heard you talking about beautiful blue eyed girls. What should I do with this one? She’s a shoplifter and the main detective, detective Perot, which I thought was hilarious because that’s kind of a Poe reference, but anyway, he’s like, well, just let her go.   I knew something was gonna go on. Eventually, they bring and it’s so like these cops are just imbeciles. Like, they’re just so stupid. They bring her back in to kind of be a patsy in this big setup. They they come to suspect the doctor because somehow one of the detectives mentions that Edna’s friend had said the pearl necklace. And so the Jacques is like, oh, that makes me that reminds me of someone. And so they’re suspicious of the doctor and Louise and so they use this other girl, Paulette, the shoplifter, kind of as bait and kind of as a patsy in in this whole big setup scheme. Yeah.   But it’s so it’s so flawed and stupid and like I just felt for Paulette. I’m like, here, like, they’re they’re, like, they’re throwing her into this situation and they just don’t give a shit about her at all. 

Todd:  They don’t they don’t observe her. They don’t keep track of her or anything because as soon as she gets let out of the hospital, she calls her mom and says, okay, mom. I’m going home. And, the nurse says, alright. The bus station’s down the street. She walks out, and who pulls up but in this car is, Louise Louise. To pick her up like she’s picked up all the other girls, and she takes off with her. Right.   Well, that’s the end of her. And and sure enough Well, 

Craig:  right. And then it cuts right to the doctor drawing the pencil marks on Paulette’s face. What the detectives had done is that they had dyed her hair and sent her in there as a patient. I don’t even know what their Why did they put her in there? 

Todd:  I don’t I didn’t get that part either. Like, it was it was all about blue eyes, wasn’t it? 

Craig:  Yes. And all of the other girls were brunettes. So I don’t know what the problem was, but they sent her in like as bait. But then she gets released and, like you said, Luis picks her up and Doctor. 

Todd:  The 2 detectives pay him a visit while he’s penciling in Luis’ face. 

Craig:  Well, yeah. But even before that even before that, I feel like Jacques calls them or somebody calls them and says nothing happened. They released her. And the detectives are like, oh, okay. Well, we’ll check on her tomorrow morning to make sure she got home safe. Right. Seriously? 

Todd:  Like Why weren’t you guys out there waiting for her to leave the place? At least watching her, something like this. Like, were you hoping 

Craig:  check on her tomorrow. She’ll be fine. 

Todd:  Maybe they were maybe they weren’t gonna be convinced, until the doctor had actually created a dead Todd, and then they could they could prosecute. You know? Maybe they didn’t actually wanna help her out. 

Craig:  I guess. I just I just felt like the the cops were so incompetent. And then like like you said, you know, the doctor is penciling her face for the surgery, and Louise comes in and is like, There’s 2 guys waiting, asking about you at the clinic. And, he’s like, I can’t be bothered. And she’s like, No, it’s serious. So he walks over there. So apparently, the clinic is on his property. Yeah.   That was 

Todd:  a surprise. 

Craig:  And   they’re like, Oh, we’re looking for this girl. She’s helping us on a case or something. And he’s like, No, she’s been released. And they’re like, Okay, bye.   And they   go outside and Jacques’ like, Sorry, I led you on this wild goose chase. And they’re like, Oh, well, at least now we know it’s not anything. Like, they didn’t do any of the they were completely worthless. Just a second. Worthless. 

Todd:  This girl is missing. She never came home. Isn’t that the whole point of your of your setting her up as bait was for somebody to take her? And now they’re just willing to walk away from it all. It was it didn’t make any sense. 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh,   well. But that’s what leads up to the climax, and it and it’s it’s a good climax, I thought. The, Paulette wakes up on the operating table, and the only one who was there is Christiane. Of course, Paulette is screaming and crying and freaking out, and Christianne walks over to her and she picks up the scalpel, which of course scares Paulette, but she starts to cut away Paulette’s restraints. And then Louise walks in and, Christiane walks over to her and she’s holding the scalpel and Louise says, Put it down. And, instead, Christiane stabs her in the neck presumably about the same place where her scar would have been, And Louise says, of course, why? But, you know, as melodramatic as that is, the acting was actually pretty good. Like Yeah. I felt like Louise felt like she had been trying to help this girl, almost like she was like a mother figure to this girl.   All she had been doing was trying to help despite the fact that what they were doing was terrible. But you feel a little bit of sympathy, or I did felt a little bit of sympathy for Louise in that moment. And then Christiane releases Paulette and Paulette goes off running off and we never see her again. Christiane goes into the adjacent dog kennel and releases all the dogs and the dogs all go out and sadly, kind of unconvincingly maul and kill the doctor. I understand that it was 1960 and I understand that there’s only so much you can do with animals, you know, you don’t actually want animals really mauling people to death, but like whoever they whoever whatever stunt man they had playing the doctor, like he was clearly padded like crazy. Yeah. So much padding. And these dogs were clearly not 

Todd:  They were playing. 

Craig:  They’re running up to him. They’re yeah. They’re wagging their tails. But we’re led to believe that they maul and kill the doctor. And then, Christiane releases all these white doves that we’ve never seen before, from the kennel. And I feel like that’s supposed to be symbolic. And then she walks out holding one of the white doves in her hands with her mask on and this beautiful, some sort of white gown, and she walks past her mauled father, through the woods, holding this white dove, and then on the screen we get Feen, you know, the end. And, you know, I liked the ending, I saw it coming a mile away once she released the doves.   I’m like, oh, she’s free. But yeah. It was one I I think one of the things that I was most excited to talk to and not even talk to you about, but just point out is when she first emerges holding the one white dove, did you notice that there was bird shit all over her arm? Oh, I thought that was so funny. 

Todd:  Oh, dude. That’s hilarious. Honestly, I was I was paying attention to the dove because, you know, what’s going through my mind in this scene is as as a, as a guy who’s done magic and has done stage shows, I’ve worked with doves before, and so I know how you’re supposed to handle them. And the whole time I’m watching her release these doves and and everything, I’m thinking, oh my god. That’s not what you’re supposed to do. She’s as she was walking out with that one dove on her hand, she was clearly clipping its its toes between her fingers to keep it from from flying off, and you totally do not do that with with doves or pigeons or anything because they will try to fly off, and they can leave their toes or their, you know, behind. That’s how fragile the bones are in their in their toes. So I was paying I was watching that the whole time, to be honest.   I was like, she’s a terrible dove handler. I guess it was a a bit of a John Woo moment there. And you know what? We did see doves earlier, actually. There was, it’s a blink if you miss it bit. But when they’re showing the portraits in the castle or I’m sorry, the house. Might as well be a castle. When they’re showing the portraits on the wall, there’s a portrait of her, and she is holding a dove in that portrait. 

Craig:  That’s right. I forgot that. Yeah. Now that you say that, I totally remember. 

Todd:  But it’s just a real surreal kind of concerned about what happens to her or that it makes sense or anything. It’s just more interested in the general feel that it’s getting across, which is honestly very typical of French films. You know, and I say this a lot too about Asian films Todd. Like, they’re not always concerned about making sense, as far as a plot goes. They’re way more concerned about just getting a a look and a feel to it. Well, like the Italian cellos, you know, of the seventies sixties as well, kind of did that. I felt like this movie was was definitely had a plot to it, but the ending is not anything anyone’s gonna say is is wonderful, except for the fact that it does sort of it has its its its own kind of closure, in a an emotional sense, I suppose. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I know what you mean, and I am not versed in foreign films like you are. So I I don’t know how it compares to other French films, but I actually kind of liked it because the whole movie is it’s not nonsensical, like it’s not completely out of the realm of reality. It’s like surreal. It’s surreal, and it feels kinda like a fairy tale. And the ending, you know, the and then the princess went free. Like, that that’s fine. You know? Like, I was okay with it.   And it was it it was really aside from the bird shit, you know, kind of a a beautiful kind of a beautiful image of her just, you know, walking into the forest, like, and she had said several times before this, like she had begged Louise to kill her. She just wanted to die. She didn’t wanna go through this anymore. She was done. And so just kind of her walking into the woods, I don’t know, you know, who knows in the realm of reality what happened to her, but I don’t care. It’s it’s kind of like she’s just escaped this nightmare. Yeah. And and I I was satisfied.   I thought it was a satisfying ending. 

Todd:  It’s like in trying to help her. Her father was really holding her captive. Right? 

Craig:  Absolutely. Yeah. 

Todd:  It’s pretty classic. I know what’s best for you, my daughter, and this is how I’m going to be. And, she’s finally comes out her on her own against it. You know, it’s also interesting that she wasn’t rescued by anybody, You know, she just basically does all this on her own. So it’s it’s also very empowering. 

Craig:  Oh, man. I don’t know about that. But, what what in in reading about this, in watching it, it reminded me of several things and, I think really as it turned out, the things that it reminded me of, really drew inspiration from this. I I I think that this inspired a lot of filmmakers. There have been, multiple films with very similar plots, that I I think some of the filmmakers have even specifically said they were inspired by it. You know, even, you know, as directly as a father trying to give the daughter, you know, youth and rejuvenation or or even specifically a new face. I mean, there have been other movies that have been, made. The one that it kept reminding me of was a movie that I haven’t even seen but I remember seeing, the previews for it, 2,000 eleven’s The Skin I Live In with Antonio Banderas.   Amado. And and and looking and yeah. Yeah. And then looking, you know, at I don’t even know, the interwebs, you know, just reading stuff. That was one of the ones that was mentioned as one that was inspired by this movie. You know, like I said earlier, I think when it was first released in the United States, it was released under a different title. It was dubbed, so I imagine that the dialogue was largely changed, and they cut out tons and tons. I know that in 2003, it was released theatrically again in the United States uncut and uncensored.   And initially when it came out in France, it got really, really mixed reviews, mostly negative reviews. In fact, there was one female critic who praised it and she almost lost her job for praising it because it had been so panned by all the other critics. But now people, like you said at the very beginning, people are saying that this is like a horror classic. You know, it shows up on movies like, you know, the top 100 movies you need to see before you die or whatever. And I don’t know. I don’t know if it deserves that kind of acclaim, but, it’s a good movie. I was really pleasantly surprised when when you sent me the title. The the very first thing that I thought of was Billy Idol’s song, Eyes Without A Face.   And apparently he was inspired, by this movie to to write that song. He kind of took the narrative and changed it around so it was more about a couple of lovers instead of a father and daughter. These older films are really not what I am drawn Todd. It’s not what I watch in my leisure time for fun, but I I found myself being appreciative to you because I would have never picked it and, I was pleasantly surprised by how good it was. 

Todd:  Yeah. I I agree. I was also pleasantly surprised, and I was really glad to force you to watch it because, 

Craig:  I know I know 

Todd:  you’re not drawn to these things. And, I I am kinda drawn to these things, and so I’m I’m glad we got the chance to watch it. But more than anything, I’m glad that you’re not mad at me for making you watch it. Oh, good. Craig likes it. We can go on another week. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I do, folks, often get mad at Todd for his selections. But this week, I text but   this week I texted him after I’d   watched it and said, dude, I didn’t wanna watch this at all. But, it was it was Todd, and I look forward to talking about it. 

Todd:  Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us on Itunes, Google Play, and Stitcher. You can also find us on Facebook where you can, like our page, pass it along to a friend, converse about this movie or any other movie you’d like us to do in the future. Until that future time, I’m Todd and 

Craig:  I’m Craig 

Todd:  with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Four female directors tackle four different tales centering around women in this interesting concept film. We both love horror anthology pics, but we ended up a bit divided on this one overall. Have a listen to find out why.

Episode 92, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Craig:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.   I’m Craig. 

Todd:  And I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And Todd let me pick the movie this week and I decided to go with 2017’s XX, as in “XX” for the female chromosomes. This movie is, unique in that the the movie was conceived as being an opportunity for female directors and actresses, to kinda take the forefront in the horror realm. And it’s an anthology film. And the more anthology films I watch, the more I come to realize that I think they may be one of my favorite, subgenres of horror. And this one is no exception. I I really liked this movie, and I’ll be interested to see, Todd, what you thought of it, because I liked it so much, in fact, that I watched it twice in the last 2 days. What? Wow. 

Todd:  Oh, man. 

Craig:  I watched it the day before yesterday, by myself, and, took my notes and and enjoyed it so much that when my partner and I couldn’t come up with anything to watch last night, I encouraged him to watch it with me. And and he wasn’t as excited about it as I am, but that comes as no surprise. He’s he’s not really as as big a a fan of horror, or or really a fan of horror at all. But he found things that he, liked about it too. I don’t know. I just maybe it’s just because I am a big fan of anthology horror. Maybe it’s because we don’t see, female directors in horror that often, so it’s refreshing to to get that perspective. You know, I was thinking about it, and we’ve reviewed now almost a 100 movies.   Like, I think we’re in the nineties. And going back and looking at the list, I think that only 4 of those movies that we’ve reviewed were directed by women. We’ve we’ve looked at Near Dark, Ravenous, Pet Sematary, and Spookies. As far as I know, all directed by women. But that’s it out of the nearly a 100 movies that we’ve watched. So I was excited about this, and and frankly, I I thought it paid off pretty well. What’d you think, Todd? 

Todd:  You know, I’m not as crazy about it as you are. I love anthology movies too. We’ve talked about this before. And horror anthologies are a lot of fun to watch, and they’re also usually hard to get right. It’s hard to get 4 separate stories, that kind of work together as one movie. I actually thought this one did a pretty good job of keeping a fairly similar tone and fairly similar stylistically. The movies the the segments really kind of clicked with each other. You didn’t feel like you’re watching a movie directed by 4 different people.   Does that make sense? Yeah. That I thought it really accomplished. Like most anthology films too, there’s quite a bit of variety in there, and some people think that that’s bad. Some people say that that they call it uneven because the stories are, quite frankly, just different from each other. I don’t consider that a flaw. I see that as a feature, not a bug. Right? That’s why we we we watched a movie with different stories than it is maybe to get some variety. So that didn’t bother me either.   I guess I felt most of them were fairly unsatisfying for me. I don’t know. There’s a sublime quality to the movie, if that’s maybe the right word to use. It’s very chill for most of it. It’s pretty evenly paced, and that pace is a little relaxed, with the exception of the third one, which is more different than the others. Right. And again, that’s not really a bad thing, but it just couple of the stories just didn’t really work for me. I guess, they didn’t conclude for me.   Does that make sense? 

Craig:  It does. It makes sense, and and frankly, I I can’t say that I’m really surprised to hear you say that because, I watched the movie the first time and I I found myself pausing it a lot to take a lot of notes because I thought that there were a lot of really interesting things going on visually and with the cinematography, and there were some really clever lines and things. And and when I was done watching it, I was like, oh, man. I really like this. And and so then I started looking around at reviews. And the reviews of the movie are really, really lukewarm. Like, there wasn’t a whole lot of really positive, criticism coming out about this. And and so initially, I was kinda surprised, and the more that I read the reviews, I thought, well, I can see where they’re coming from, but the things that they were being critical of, and and and some of the things that I read are the exact same things that you’re saying, that some of the entries lacked, a conclusion or or they left loose ends and that was unsatisfying for some people.   Those things didn’t bother me. I I found each of these stories to be interesting, you know, as far as content is concerned. I also found them to be visually interesting, and fun to watch. Yeah. Some of them, are left kind of open ended, but I wasn’t bothered by that. I found them to be interesting stories. The movie really is not scary. Like you said, the the third one is kind of more classic horror, and and and and I don’t have any problem with that either.   That’s that’s fine. But I was really just kind of impressed. I felt like these ladies, all of them who did the directing and and and many of them were involved in the writing, as well. I just thought that they picked really interesting stories and and and I I really enjoyed it. Of course, as is the case with most anthology movies, there’s kind of a a wrap around segment that if anything, the critics were the most kind about. It it it opens up with this imagery, and it’s all like stop motion weird stuff with it seems like it’s kind of in an old kind of Victorian maybe nursery or or child’s room or something, and it’s all this weird stuff with, like, stop motion dolls and and all this weird stuff going on. It opens the movie. It it comes in between every entry, and it closes out the movie too.   And it it was by a, I believe Chinese, I hope I’m not misspeaking, but I believe a Chinese, stop action artist who did all of this. And what I’ll say about it is that it was really, really visually stimulating. If there was any narrative to it or if there was any symbolism to it, it went over my head. But Me too. It was cool to look at. It was 

Todd:  it was stunning, and I think it it actually set a good tone for the film. Like I said, a little surreal, a little sublime. It’s not like a Craig show with the kid in the comic books. You know, it’s not Tales from the Dark Side with the kid, you know, being trapped by the witch where you’re you’re waiting for the the conclusion at the end. You’re not expecting a conclusion to this wraparound. And again, that sets a pretty good tone, I think, for the rest of the stories. You shouldn’t really expect, it’s like reading literature in a way. I thought I’ll come right out and say the first two stories I really liked.   The last 2, I wasn’t a huge fan of, although I did I won’t say that they were bad. I would just say they didn’t strike me like the first 2. And when you say they’re not, scary, you’re you’re pretty right about that. Although, I felt like a couple of them were pretty chilling. Yeah. Especially this first one called the box. Yeah. It’s so surreal and so chilling, and it it it starts with a question.   Right off the bat, there’s a family just riding the train, and there’s an odd voice over, which I’m not even sure was necessary. But anyway, there’s a woman talking, and she’s a mother. 

Clip:  It’s not easy spending a day in the city with 2 kids around Christmas time, even if you have taken them to a matinee and outdoor skating. I’d had to fight with them, with Danny in particular, to get them aboard the 355, back to the suburbs in time for dinner. Presents were still in his mind. 

Todd:  This little boy named Danny sees a man sitting across from him, and he has this red box that he’s holding. It looks like a wrapped up birthday package or something. And he asks him about it, and he says, oh, it’s a it’s a present for his daughter or his niece or somebody. And Danny says, can I see what’s in it? Mom’s like, Danny, don’t say that. He’s like, no. That’s okay. And he cracks the oak the box open just slightly, and Danny looks in, and he doesn’t say anything. It’s just like a bizarre kind of blankness goes across his face.   Danny. And Danny’s probably, what, I don’t know, 10 years old maybe? 

Craig:  Mhmm. Maybe 8. I don’t know. 

Todd:  8. Maybe 8 or 10. And the guy closes the box and just looks at him and then gets up and says, says, this is my stop. I need to go. So immediately, that begs this question, what the heck is in this box? And we think we’re going to find it. Right. But the problem is the next day, the family’s sitting down to dinner, and Danny’s not interested in eating. He’s just not hungry.   And then it goes Todd Monday and we’re back at the dinner table and Danny still doesn’t want to eat. And the family’s like, oh, this is strange. Why don’t you want to eat? What’s wrong? He says, oh, I’m just not hungry. Then it’s like Tuesday, and again Danny’s not eating and they are starting to get worried, the mother and the father both. And they’re talking with him, they’re asking if there’s something wrong at school, but it’s really disconcerting. And I’ll say this is a really chilling story at this point. Like, I’m kind of on the edge of my seat going, what in the world did he see in this box that for one reason or another is causing him to not eat? It’s so bizarre. It’s so strange, but it’s so kind of grounded in a reality of these parents with what could be a very real problem with your son or daughter, you know, that they’re just not eating.   Mhmm. And so their concern is genuine. They’re real, and this family is really nice. I mean, it’s they’re they’re presented as this very up upper middle class clearly by the house that they’re in and stuff. Yeah. And the food that they’re making, you know, at the table is pretty elaborate. The China that they’re eating on, at least initially, doesn’t exist in my house. But just mom, dad, Danny, and his sister, and most of the movie is just surrounds this table for the for for a good portion of it and the fact that he will not eat.   I just was really into this, but I was into it because I was questioning what is going on here? And it only gets worse from there. 

Craig:  Yeah, I mean I agree with you. I felt like it was so effective because it felt like a really real family dynamic. You know, they’re a nice family. You know, mom, dad, daughter, son, and and, you know, everything seemed pleasant, they seemed to get along really well, they have dinner every night around, the dinner table. And I have to say, you know, you said it’s like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. You know, we keep getting these shots and and pretty much every time the the shot right after we see what day it is is the food on the table. And I tell you what, I wanna grow up in this family. The food.   The food I was drooling. I swear to Todd. Yeah. They had, like, a food artist come in and put this food. I mean, like, it looks so appetizing and and and good. Oh, man. You you can tell where my mind goes 

Todd:  with. No. That’s in my notes too, man. I felt the same way. 

Craig:  They’re having, like, ribs and pizza and, like, you know, spaghetti. It becomes all more kid friendly. It goes as it goes along because they’re trying to get this kid to eat. And it does. You know, it seems like a real problem. Like, this is something that can really happen and it doesn’t necessarily have to be anything supernatural or anything like that. This feels like it could be a real problem. But this, after a while, you know, it’s been almost a week and this kid still hasn’t eaten.   I mean, you said both parents are concerned, and they are, but it really seems like it’s the dad that really gets, super concerned. And and in fact, the dad kinda gets frustrated eventually that the mom isn’t more concerned. 

Clip:  Are you taking any of this seriously?   Of course, I am.   I’m the mother. Well, I just don’t understand it.   Understand what?   How you can eat while our children are starving.   I have to eat, don’t I? 

Craig:  At some point, the mom who is frustrated and and nervous, walks by the little boy Danny’s room and, Danny is in there with his sister, and they’re whispering together. And the mom says, what are you talking about? And, they say, nothing. And she’s like, well, are you maybe talking about why you’re not eating? And they just don’t say anything. And it’s these moments, they’re so subtle. The kids, they don’t do much of anything and there’s no expression on their face like they’re just staring at the mom. And that in itself is unsettling. And I really liked the subtlety of this clip. And after that, the next day, now all of a sudden the daughter is not eating.   In the meantime, they’ve taken the son to a doctor and the doctor is concerned, but he doesn’t know what’s going on. And now all of a sudden the daughter’s not eating. And eventually, the dad gets so upset that he kind of has an outburst, at the mom. The 2 of them are sitting alone at the dinner table and he says, Where’s Jenny? And the mom says, She said she wasn’t hungry. And the dad just kind of loses it and says, I just don’t understand how you can eat when our children are starving. And he goes upstairs and, the mom follows a little bit after and she sees the dad talking to Danny and the dad says, Listen Danny, you know you can tell me anything, just tell me why you’re not eating. Danny whispers in his ear, and then we see the mom in bed and we see the dad come to bed and she says, What did he say? And the dad just says, Oh, nothing, and goes to sleep. And then it cuts to a scene that I did not know.   Like, I was like, Wait a second. What is what is going on here? Were you shocked by what came next? 

Todd:  Yeah. I I I thought this is making a total left turn. It’s already a weird weird segment, and, it’s it’s like a shot of the mother just smiling laying down, and it slowly pans down from her head down her Todd, and you see that half of her arm looks like it’s been cut off, like the flesh has been stripped from it, and it goes even further down. And it the same with her leg, and it’s her husband is carving a slice of her leg off, and he’s serving it to the kids at the table. She’s laid out like the meal at the table, and they’re eating it and they’re smiling. And there’s a shot of her, and she’s actually, like, smiling like she’s pleased with herself. She’s still alive. And then it switches immediately to, like, Christmas time. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And and, and we get that voice over again where the mother is basically saying, and then Christmas came. 

Clip:  I remember laughter from that Todd, plenty of laughter. Nobody’s new clothes fit, but we try them on anyway. Believe it or not, we were happy. We were more together than we had ever been. 

Todd:  Yet the whole family, except for the mom, is super gaunt. Their sockets are sunken in. They look not healthy at all. They’re opening presents, and the kid hands the mother a box that looks just like the box that was on the Craig. And it says Todd mom and it’s like this chilling moment you think, okay mom is gonna see what’s in this box, and she just kind of looks off in the distance like she remembered a question and said, oh, by the way, almost, you know, is what was it that was in that box? Do you remember on that train? And he doesn’t say anything. And then it just cuts to another I think right after that, doesn’t it cut to them in the hospital? Am I right about that? Yep. Yeah. Yep.   And she’s with Danny, and, he is dying, and it pans over. And in the next room is the girl, and she is dying, and it pans over to the next room and the husband, and he’s dying, and they all die. And we get more Right. Piece over, and she says, you know, ever since I had to go back and forth to the hospital, every time on that subway, I’m I’ve been looking for that man. I’m looking for that man trying to find him, and I’m hungry. 

Craig:  And and that’s where yeah. And and, like, it blacks out. Right? You know, she’s saying that I’ve got to find them. I feel like that’s the only way that I can be close to them again. And it cuts to black and then it says I’m hungry. I don’t know, I just found this one really haunting. It’s, it was directed by, I don’t know if I’ll pronounce this correctly, but it was directed by a lady named Jovanka Vukovic and it was based on a story by Jack Ketchum who is an author that I’m aware of. I’ve heard his name.   I’ve read some of his stuff. But I was so intrigued, by the, by this, this segment that I, I searched out the source material, the short story that it’s based on. And, it is incredibly faithful to the source material. The only difference, yeah, oh my gosh, so, so faithful. The only difference, differences I guess are instead of 2 kids there are 3. In the story the daughter is instead of twins. It that which really makes no difference whatsoever. The same thing happens.   And the only other significant difference is that the mother and father characters are gender swapped. So it’s the father who’s on the train with them and it’s the mother who’s cooking the meals and things. And and I thought that that gender swap was actually really interesting for this kind of movie. But but all of that voice over, all the narrative voice over stuff we hear, that is word for word direct taken from the source material. And I just I liked this one because it was haunting and I liked it because it left it open ended. We don’t know what was in that freaking box. You know? 

Todd:  I I think there’s a lot of really interesting things going on here. In a way, you could read the story a lot of different ways. I saw it almost as a metaphor for any time a family kind of can break down for one reason or another, or when a family member, for whatever reason, separates themselves from the rest of the group, And it’s it’s a kind of thing that can sneak in. You know, I mean, the most obvious thing would be like drug use. Right? One of the family gets in hooked into drugs and you don’t even notice it at first until it becomes a problem. But even still, it’s kind of like their own little secret. It’s not something anybody else does unless he gets the next person hooked and that, you know, this kind of thing can happen. Again, it doesn’t have to be that extreme.   It’s just like an emotional distance that can come between people. Even within families, you get, you know, secrets and you get factions, sometimes that that will break a family apart. And I saw this mother as the person who was just at her wit’s end, completely helpless, but still trying to deal with it in the best way she can. You know, it’s not a problem she can solve, so she just goes along with it the best that she can. And it’s just sad and depressing that there’s no not any more that she could do except try to enjoy the last Christmas that they had together, for example. There’s a terror of the unknown here. It’s a very haunting story. For me, it was it was the best one.   And and even the way that the food, you know, over time, it’s clear without even saying it, it’s clear that even the joy of preparing meals, they lose it completely because as as we said, the food’s really really good at the beginning, And then as it goes on, they’re getting, like, Chinese takeout, and then it’s, like, fried chicken in boxes. Nobody’s even preparing the meal anymore, at this point. Right. There are just so many nice little touches in this, and and, yeah, you can tell. It’s it’s a very literary story. It’s clear that it comes from a very literary source. 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, gosh. I and I I probably agree with you that that was my favorite one, but, you know, I I liked the others too for what they were. You know, the the next one is called The Birthday Party, and this one, was directed by, a musician, Saint Vincent. She has a real name, but her stage name is Saint Vincent. And I recognize that name. I’m not familiar with her music. You know, I kinda looked her up, but, this was her directorial debut.   I didn’t know that going in that this was a musician, but in hindsight it makes total sense because this whole segment, it doesn’t feel like a music video necessarily, but it has kind of the aesthetic of a music video and that it’s really bright, it’s super colorful. Like, it’s just it’s artistically, it’s kind of beautiful to look at. The colors are so bright and there was clearly a lot of thought going into what you were seeing and I appreciated that and it had a killer sound design. Doctor. It really did. Doctor. R. The sound design was amazing.   I absolutely loved it. And it’s a simple story. This woman wakes up in bed played by Melanie Lynskey. This is the only, actor in this movie that I recognized. Most people would probably recognize her. She did a long stint on 2 and a Half Men. I don’t really even care for that show, but she was hilarious on it. She also was the lead in, a a kind of horror movie.   I think it was called Heavenly Creatures. The guy who directed Lord of the Rings. Who’s that? 

Todd:  Jackson. Kate Winslet was in it too. 

Craig:  Yeah. It was one of his first movies. A Todd movie, very spooky based on a true story. But anyway, you’ll recognize this girl. She wakes up and and the premise is that it’s the day of, her it’s her daughter’s birthday and she’s going to be throwing a birthday party for her daughter’s neighborhood friends. She gets up and she’s kinda getting things ready. She gets startled by the nanny, Carla, who is this kind of, I I don’t even know how to describe her, this goth waspy kind of girl. And Carla says, will David, the little girl’s dad, be joining us and and the mom says no he’s still out on his business trip and Carla’s like well I saw his car here this morning so he must have gotten back.   And the mom’s like, No I think I would have noticed if he would have come in. And she’s kind of got this tense exchange with the nanny, but then she goes for whatever reason, I don’t know, into her husband’s office and he’s sitting there and she’s like, Oh, David. 

Todd:  Yeah. He he took too many pills, maybe mixed pills and alcohol because because, yeah, when she goes into the office, thinks he’s alive, turns his chair around, he’s slumped over, he’s got a a an empty drink glass in his hand, and later on, she picks up that bottle of pills, and she says, oh, you were so stupid or something. I I assumed that that was the case, mixing the the the the alcohol and the pills. I didn’t think it was suicide. I don’t know. It could have been. 

Craig:  Yeah. No. I didn’t get that impression either. The whole rest of the short is basically her trying to keep the husband hidden. It’s like she doesn’t want to spoil the little girl’s birthday and so it’s just kind of a series of gags really where people are almost catching her moving around the Todd. And again, it’s not scary. Like this 

Todd:  It’s comedy. 

Craig:  Comedy. Yeah. This segment on its own, I would not even classify as horror at all. No. It’s Weekend at Bernie’s. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of.   And yet, again, with the subtlety of the performances and just the interesting visual aspect of it, Todd, I really liked it. 

Todd:  Yeah. Well and it does have an odd, she makes an odd choice in that a panda, a guy dressed as a panda, comes to the door and does a birthday gram or whatever, dance and song. Yeah. Rap with a beatbox like this. 

Craig:  Well, I I wasn’t done yet. 

Clip:  I got, like, 3 more verses to go.   I’ll give you $200 for the tune. 

Craig:  Well, no. Just hit play. 

Clip:  I’m not I’m not Lucy. Okay? Lucy’s my daughter, so you don’t have to worry.   I think it’s gotta be Lucy.   You’re not listening. 300. You want 300?   There’s a down payment on the suit, and I got a thing this afternoon. I   A $1,000. A $1,000 and 2 ounces of medical marijuana for my knee surgery last year. 

Todd:  So it couldn’t have been the eighties. I don’t know. Anyway, she dresses him up in the suit, the body up in the suit. 

Craig:  The dead guy. Yeah. 

Todd:  Yeah. And is is hauling around her husband as a panda. First, just the head, but then she I guess she manages to get the whole thing in it. And, like, she decides to just set him at the other end of the table propped up, at the party. So there’s this nice slow motion sequence with music where everybody’s coming in for the party, and and, she is just slumped at the end of the table, still not dressed at all, but the rest of everything is ready. You know, it’s all in slow motion. It’s all musical. You basically see them bring out the cake.   The pan the guy, you know, panda head falls down into it, and they’re like, what? And they lift it up and take the head off, and that’s when they see Todd, dad is dead in front of all of the the guests, everybody there, and the mom is just sitting there just kinda staring off into space like, well, what’s done is done. 

Craig:  And and it cuts to it cuts to black, and you can still hear all these kids screaming in the background. It cuts to black, and then across the screen, we get the birthday party or the memory Lexi suppressed from her 7th birthday, or Lucy maybe, I don’t know. And and then it, like, it fades to black again, and then more words come up that really wasn’t her mom’s fault. Fade to black, more words. Even though her therapist says it’s probably why she fears intimacy. Like, I just thought it was really funny. And Melanie Lynskey is a beautiful woman, but she’s also, like your friend from college, you know, like she, she looks like somebody you would know, and she plays everything subtly, and she establishes at some point that the daughter is kind of having anxiety problems and she’s talking to her dead husband before she realizes he’s dead. 

Clip:  Lucy has been having such anxiety, and I’m just really hoping that this brings her her out of her shell. You know, her therapist says that she gets her anxiety from watching me me? Can Can you believe me? I mean, the nerve. 

Craig:  And, like, yeah. You can obviously see, like, this woman is so stressed out and is so anxious. And what I liked about it was that like she was trying so hard to save her daughter’s birthday and like she had had to dodge nosy neighbors and she had had to dodge the nanny and there just came a point where it was like she just kinda broke and didn’t know what to do and so she just set this guy up in the panda suit at the birthday party. And she’s just sitting there in her nightgown and robe with her hair disheveled while all these neighborhood kids come in in these elaborate costumes and their parents are there dressed to the nines, and she’s just kinda sitting there like, Here we go. I don’t know. I could see, you know, it’s really subtle, it’s not scary, but I don’t know. I just I enjoyed the performance. I thought the visuals were cool.   The music, the sound was excellent. Again, another good one. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Now the third one, again, when I was watching this with my partner, I told them, there’s gonna be one that you’re absolutely not gonna like. There’s gonna be one that you’re just gonna absolutely hate. And it was this third one. So do you wanna give this one a go? 

Todd:  Sure. It’s called Don’t Fall, and I’m still not sure why. But at any rate, it’s just for friends, hiking, out of probably college age friends hiking out at, what looks like Red Rock maybe, anywhere. There there are big rock formations and desert. We’re not actually given a place, but the place becomes an important an important thing. It’s interesting. Even the title starts out a little Quentin Tarantino esque, and I I almost felt like the whole segment had a bit of the Tarantino style flare to it, at least in their dialogue. They’re just out hiking, and one of the guys, Paul, is just a total goof off, stoner.   You know? He’s the laugh laugh a minute guy of the group. And it seems to kinda focus around Gretchen, who’s the more careful, maybe slightly mousy one, and then the more intellectual Jay, who’s got the glasses on, and and then another girl. I don’t even I didn’t even catch her name. 

Craig:  Jess, and she’s, Gretchen’s girlfriend. 

Todd:  That’s right. Gretchen’s girlfriend. And so they’re out and they’re hiking around, and they come across some petroglyphs. And they’re just caught just these shadowy figures, you know, painted as petroglyphs are. They look very old. They look almost like cave paintings in the rocks. Then, you know, it’s nighttime, and they’re camping out. And through their dialogue, we learn some very interesting things. 

Craig:  This is the best campsite around. Okay? And nobody even knows about it. 

Clip:  How’d you know about it? 

Craig:  I just know shit, man. Okay? I commune with nature, and it shows me the way. 

Clip:  It shows him the way.   Or he bribed the gas station guy at the last stop. 

Craig:  And also that. 

Clip:  What? That’s true.   Are you kidding me? Paul,   it could be like illegal for us to   be out here. This is like a historical heritage site, clearly. You know, we could get arrested for that. 

Craig:  Oh, come on. 

Clip:  What? You think they want people spray painting dicks on those ancient murals? 

Craig:  Hieroglyphs. Tetroglyphs. Hieroglyphs are Egyptian. 

Clip:  Oh my god. I hate you so much sometimes. 

Craig:  I don’t think anyone’s been up here in a really long time. 

Clip:  Maybe it’s cursed.   It’s not you think it’s cursed? 

Todd:  That, you know, obviously sets up the fact that something bad’s gonna happen. And, of course, it does. Gretchen goes inside. She’s gonna go to sleep. Then she wakes up, in the middle of the night, but she’s not in the tent. She’s been having these weird dreams that she’s in a cave with these, again, these, like, shadowy creatures from the petroglyphs are in front of her. And when she wakes up, she’s actually outdoors. So we’re not sure if she slept walked or what happened or if she’s magically transported, but either way, she gets beset by one of these creatures.   And from here on out, it’s it’s really just, and maybe this is why I didn’t really care for this one so much, it’s just your pretty standard spooky spirit or creature in the woods who slowly slaughters every quickly slaughters everybody in this case. But it has it has some nice elements. I mean, the the design of the creature is really interesting in that, it really takes the form of those petroglyphs, which when they’re when they’re painted on a cave, they look elongated by time. You know, like water is sort of washed over them, and so they’re they’d be quick, long shadows with long arms, long fingers, and things. Whereas, this creature is does become like that. It’s actually more like like Gretchen gets possessed by the creature in a sense 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And transforms into it. But, yeah, she comes in. It’s pretty brutal, and I mean, it’s it’s a scary segment as these things go. You know, it comes and attacks them in the in the camper and chases them down. But, yeah, everybody dies. And, then, you know, the last shot I saw coming a mile away, which is, of the cave of the wall again, and there is a new petroglyph that looks an awful lot like the 4 of them. 

Craig:  Yeah. Okay. Alright. So first, I’ll tell you why I was disappointed with segment. The reason that I was disappointed with this segment was because when it began, I thought that it was gonna be something totally different, especially because of the title. Yeah. And they they start out, they climb up this huge rock formation and they’re standing right on the edge of it. And, like, a couple of them are goofing around.   Like, what I expected was somebody was gonna fall off this thing, you know? And and like there’s this cool there’s this cool title sequence where, like, we see them and then the camera pulls back and then it kinda pulls back into the title so it frames them and it says, Don’t fall. And I’m thinking, Okay. You know, somebody’s gonna be goofing around. They’re gonna fall. It’s gonna be kind of a survivalist kind of thing. And that scares the crap out of me. I am terrified of heights and I have been to those type of places, when I when my sister and brother-in-law lived in huge rock formation and I’m following him and I’m like, this is awesome. And then I get halfway up and I look back and we’re so high up, I froze.   Like, I was mortified. So, I’m terrified of that kind of thing and I thought that this was going to play on that kind of fear. And so I was disappointed that it didn’t. But what I will say, what I liked about this movie, I say all the time when we’re talking about horror movies, I liked the movie, I liked the premise, it was too long. They could have cut it down and just had the most essential elements, and then I would have enjoyed it. And that’s what I liked about this movie. I felt like this was an idea that they could have tried to stretch to an hour and 20 minutes and it would have been pointless. Like, I I I got enough of who these characters were. 

Todd:  Yeah. You didn’t need to know more because it didn’t matter. It’s kind of like the Friday 13th. It’s like a lot of these slasher movies where the the characters are really pretty pointless. Yeah. Their backgrounds, we don’t need to know them, and they were fairly well drawn for as short as the movie was, I thought, but, yeah, you’re right. Cut it down to the bare essentials. It’s a monster bit.   Let’s just see the monster. 

Craig:  I appreciated that. You know? Like, I I I can’t fault them for, you know, doing what they did here because I complain about it all the time in these types of movies, especially these types of monster movies where it doesn’t really matter. We don’t really care about the characters like you said. You know, just get to the cool part. Get to the monsters. Get to the killing. And they did that, and they nailed it all in about 15 minutes. Yeah.   And it it it it wasn’t my favorite. In fact, it was probably my least favorite of the 4, but I didn’t not like it. I thought that it was pretty good 

Todd:  for what it was. It’s not highly original, but it’s pretty standard fare for the 

Clip:  especially for an anthology movie like this, and it had kind of the Twilight Zone 

Todd:  y ending where especially for an anthology movie like this, and it had kind of the Twilight Zone y ending 

Clip:  where they’re added to the petroglyph. 

Todd:  So, yeah, it fits the bill. Yeah. Not not bad. And then the last, 

Craig:  short was Her Only Living Son, and you said that these last two were not your favorites. What do you think of this one? 

Todd:  Well, this one, I think we could pretty quickly sum up as Rosemary’s baby grows up. Right? 

Craig:  Yep. Yeah. 

Todd:  That’s like somebody was sitting around and thinking like, what? I wonder what would I mean, what I wonder what happened after Rosemary’s baby. Did she keep the kid? Did they go on the run? And this answers that question. 

Craig:  Yeah. And I didn’t know that of course going in, you know, after I had seen it I read more about it and that was how it was described. It’s like a reimagining of what happens after Rosemary’s baby. And that’s how it starts out. You’ve got this woman, it’s all in tight close ups so you can’t really see, you know, it’s mostly just eyes. She’s talking to this doctor. 

Clip:  So you believe me, doctor? You actually believe me?   I believe people have agendas. This crazy world, I swear.   I’ll go somewhere. They’ll never ever find me. Or little Andy or Jenny.   Godspeed to you, missus.   No. She’s gone. 

Craig:  And then it cuts to 18 years later, and it’s this mom with this 18 year old son. He’s about like, it’s the day before his birthday. He’s about to turn 18. And I didn’t know, like I said already, going in that, that’s what the kind of the premise was. But as a premise, I thought that it it played out really well. 

Todd:  Yeah. It did. And I think this segment, I I did like a little better than the one that preceded it. I I didn’t see it so much as a horror movie just as more like another interesting, fascinating character study about this mother. That’s why I think the first two and this fourth one really tie in well together as really focusing around the mother and the the trials and tribulations she’s going with this difficulty in her family. It makes the third one even more of an outlier, quite frankly. 

Craig:  But Yeah. It does. 

Todd:  But, yeah, that was what I thought was most interesting about this. I didn’t know what it was either going in, and then I thought, oh, he’s like a werewolf or something. They’re talking about his dad, and she’s got an excuse for why his dad isn’t there, that he went to Hollywood. He’s like an actor and he’s just banging actresses left and right and didn’t never left him and never cared about him. But of course later on we realized that his dad is Satan. But Yeah. Right. In the meantime, I’m thinking, oh, well, maybe his dad is a werewolf, because at some point, you find out that the mailman who’s been kind of, kinda trying to ask this this homely, homely mother out.   This woman is like like Sissy Spacek back from, like, 

Craig:  Carrie. Right. Right. 

Clip:  Todd 

Craig:  Tony Collette, kinda. 

Todd:  Yeah. Just very, very doubty, and you do feel sorry for her. And, again, I I got the same kind of feelings about this is that she is really doing her best in an unwinnable situation, kind of like in the box and in the birthday party. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  That was the most interesting part for me. So the mailman, it turns out, is who’s been coming on to her is he’s just been watching them. He’s one of the cult, you know, that’s followed to watch him, and he says, his father’s going to call him home, very is coming soon to to call him home. And again, I was still thinking werewolf because the son, he’s like he’s like nailing he’s doing terribly bizarre things. He yanks a girl’s fingernails off at school. There’s 

Craig:  a very 

Todd:  odd sequence that later you know why, at the school. Actually, I thought this was a pretty interesting scene where she’s called into the principal’s office. 

Clip:  She had to go to the emergency room. Her hands were bleeding so badly.   I just don’t understand why he would do something.   Because I felt like it. That’s what he told Stacy.   He’s just never been a violent or Craig.   I hear the stories. I hear about the things he makes the other kids do all in the name of being in the cool clique.   Missus Withers, what about Andy’s side of the story? I mean, who’s to say he wasn’t provoked at some point?   Are you suggesting that this is Stacy’s fault?   Conflicts like these between hot headed teenagers.   Stacy is on her way to being valedictorian at this school. I would hardly call her.   Are often very complicated situations. It’s just not as black and white as you’re describing it.   I’m at a loss. He should be suspended from school or expelled. 

Craig:  That scene, I thought, it really unsettled me because, you know, working in a high school, I deal with this kind of stuff all the time. But the fact that the the son, Andy, had obviously been the aggressor. He had obviously done something wrong, and yet the administration was clearly protecting him, when there was absolutely no justification for protecting him at all. And then the mother leaves. And, of course, Andy and his mom are white and the this mother of the other student is black. I was thinking maybe it was racial tension in a small town or something like that. But at the same time, you know, I was like, oh my, how could this possibly happen? And like you said, when the other mother leaves, the principal who’s a woman says, oh, I’m so sorry you had to witness that. And Cora, the mom’s like, so you’re not gonna punish him? And the principal just shakes her head no.   And the mom is like, you’ve got to do something, otherwise, he’ll never learn. And the principal just kind of looks at this other person in the room who I assume is a teacher sliley and then she says to the mom, Andy is special. Every once in a while, we come across somebody who is special and who’s going to change the world. We’re here to protect him. Help us protect what makes him special. And at that moment, I knew something was up, you know? Like Yeah. This kid has some influence over them or something in some way. But it turns out, you know, that just like you said, just like in Rosemary’s Baby, there’s this cult of people who appear to be normal people who are trying to usher in the antichrist.   And the mom says at at at one point, it’s towards the end, several bad things have happened. You know, it kinda just seems and that’s one of the things that I liked about this movie. It just it it seems like a mother dealing with a kid who’s going through a rebellious streak, but you come to find that it’s clearly more than that. You know, he comes home with blood all over him. You know, we don’t know what has happened. But at some point, she goes in his room and she’s looking around and she pulls this box out from under his bed, and it’s got all these weird, I don’t even know how to describe it, clippings of some sort. And he comes home and she hides in his closet and she catches him trimming these like claws that are growing out of his feet and things. And then there’s this whole confrontation in the kitchen which I just found to be, from a dramatic perspective, really interesting.   And I thought that these actors did a good job of playing the real sentiment of a mother and son, the the way that they played it, played out really real. Like, she wants to protect her kid. 

Clip:  Look at me. 

Craig:  Some lady came up to me today, called me by my name. Never seen her before in my life. 

Clip:  Andy, look at me. 

Craig:  She said she knows my father. Said he’s been waiting for me for a long time. 

Clip:  Andy, I am your mother, and I demand that you look at me. 

Craig:  She said I was his only living son. Whose son, mom? You told me dad was remarried and living in Hollywood with kids of his own. 

Clip:  He is. He’s had 3 wives since I left him.   What does 

Craig:  she mean, mom? 

Clip:  I don’t know. She’s crazy.   What’s 

Craig:  she mean, mom? 

Clip:  What she said means nothing. You are my son. Do you hear me? We have not lived in town after town running from people like this for no reason. They’re evil. They have an agenda. Don’t listen to those words. You’re special. You are. 

Craig:  You always More than that, mom. Sometimes I just wanna hurt you. And there’s just this great scene where she says, your dad has never been here. You know, he wasn’t here through the chicken pox. He wasn’t here through the blah blah blah, whatever. You know, all the things that kids go through. Now that you’re grown and I’ve done all the heavy lifting, now he wants to claim you. But he doesn’t get to do that.   He doesn’t get to make the decision. You get to make the decision. And it’s this weird standoff, where it’s like you you can see this kid going through this internal struggle, and and ultimately it appears that he makes the decision that he does not want to go the way of his father. Even though at some point, at one point in this, I feel like it’s important and I miss it, He told his mother that he wanted him her to kneel to him, and then that she had to crawl to him. It was this weird power struggle thing, but eventually after she, you know, gives this impassioned plea, I did all the hard work. I was here for you. I protected you against all these people. You’re mine and you can make the decision to stay with me and then you can just kind of see in his face and it’s very subtle that he makes the decision to be with her and they embrace while all this weird Craig stuff is going on around them like Satan is present or whatever.   And and then it it ends, I I guess, tragically. I I didn’t even really know how to make out the ending. 

Todd:  They’re both just dead on the floor. Did he kill her and she killed him or, did I didn’t understand it either. That was why I thought it was kind of unsatisfying. I felt like it was kind of a cop out, to be fair. This again is another segment that could have stretched on for a whole movie, and there’s really, in this case anyway, there is a movie’s worth of material there. I mean, we’ve seen 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  All the variations already, but the fact that this is from a fee the female’s perspective, the mother’s perspective, very much like Rosemary’s Baby, this would have Right. It makes it interesting. It makes it really interesting, and it’s much better than this could have it could’ve easily been from the teenager’s perspective, and it would’ve been another one of those, you know, what’s happening to me? I’m going through puberty kind of deals. Right. By not being that and by by really focusing on the mother, it saved this segment for me even though I just felt like, yeah, it was such a cop out quick ending. 

Craig:  I just didn’t really understand it. Like, they’re standing there embracing one another. It appears that he’s made the choice of you, mom. And then you just see lots of flashing lights and like the camera swirling around them and like some like distorting special effects you know, like stretching their faces out, not physically, but like with light and stuff. And then you hear snapping, like bones snapping, and the kid starts to spit blood out of his mouth, I really couldn’t tell what was happening. It’s it’s almost like they hugged each other to death. Like, they squeezed the life out of each other. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And I didn’t know if that was what it was supposed to be. Like, they’re like, they were holding to each other so strongly, like, that was the only thing that they could do, and their only salvation lay in death, or if Satan who was apparently in the room with them even though we don’t see him, somehow, you know, killed them. But it, it was a tragic image after we get all this, you know, flashy lights, you know, crazy stuff going on, and then it just cuts to bright daylight and then laying on the floor in an embrace, in a pool of blood. And it, and it was, you know, I’m still confused. I really don’t know what happened, but that image, that last image of them in an embrace, in death, I don’t know. I I I felt, that was nice. At least they were together. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And I just again, as is the case with many of these, I just felt like the the performances were really strong. I mean, even the teenage kid, you know, he didn’t have much to do, but he felt real. Like, I I felt the emotions from him. The mother, you know, she was mousy and as a character we were supposed to believe that she was kind of weak, but in the end when she delivers this speech about how she had been there, she had been the one who had been protecting him all this year, all these years. You see the strength in her and I just saw that, I just felt that the performance was so strong. I just ended up thinking, Man, for this 20 minute short, I just felt like it was really good and for the most part maybe with the exception of the third one which still I enjoyed. I just didn’t think that maybe it had the artistic strength of the other ones. I just I walked away from this thinking, man, that was a good movie. 

Todd:  Yeah. I’d say more than horror stories, these are character studies. You know? They really are. Mhmm. The first one, the second one, and the fourth one. And, you know, you’re very complimentary toward the acting and, you know, the writing, and I completely agree with you even in the third one. I’ll even lump that one in here to say that I don’t it’s very rare that we see a horror film, much less a horror anthology film, that has such well drawn characters who feel real, who are written real, who are acted real, who do things in the real way, you know, like real life. This this movie has that going for it, and maybe that’s, you know, why you like it so much.   Again, I I didn’t dislike it. I thought that it really gripped me at the beginning, and it really kinda let me go about halfway through, unfortunately. Gripped me again toward the end, but just that last that last segment was just so unsatisfying the way it ended. I know there’s some beauty in it, Sure. I get what you’re saying. I really do. But I was just hoping that it it had a better plan for where to go. You know? Sure.   Yeah. 

Craig:  Fair enough. 

Todd:  Yeah. At least with, like, rosemary’s baby, you know, there’s there’s just that endearing question through the whole film, like, is this really happening, or is this all in her mind? And the kind of the shock of the ending is that no, this this insanely ridiculous thing really did happen. You know, that’s like 

Clip:  that’s 

Todd:  a pretty satisfying ending. It as crazy as it is, this just didn’t have that for me. 

Craig:  And and like I said at the beginning, a lot of people feel the way that you feel, and and and I get that. I I don’t know. You know? Maybe it was maybe it just hit me at the right time. I don’t know. I I I think it has a lot to do with the fact that I’m just the again, the more anthology horror films I see, it just seems like the more I like them. And, I would really like to see this go on. You know? Like, there you there’s the VHS anthology series. I don’t know if you’ve seen any of them.   I’ve seen them all. The first one was pretty darn good. The first one was pretty darn good. They’ve not the second and third one, I would say were not quite as Todd. But I I I would I love this idea. I love the idea of bringing women to the forefront, of a genre where they have really largely not been there. And it’s clear, it’s evident that there are talented women out there who can really tell interesting and engaging stories through a variety of styles and and just to to give these women a platform and to give them an opportunity. I love the idea, I who knows if there will be a second installment of this, but any of these women, who who directed this, I would be interested in seeing what they do next because, I I thought that all of their efforts were admirable. 

Todd:  Yeah. I agree. 

Craig:  Alright. Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of 2 Guys in a Chainsaw. You enjoy this episode. We’ve got a whole bunch of back episodes. You can find us on Facebook. You can find us on Itunes or Stitcher. Please let us know what you thought of this episode. If you’ve seen this movie, weigh in on what you thought.   And if you have any suggestions for things that we should watch out for in the future, let us know. I do wanna give a shout out to our friend Jordan who was the first to, introduce me to this movie and and recommend it. Thank you, Jordan. Until next time. I’m Craig And I’m Todd. With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

RIP George Romero. Our tribute episode to a man who changed the face of horror and exploitation film forever. And if you want to watch it yourself, Night of the Living Dead is in the public domain and is available for free from any number of sources. Here’s one:

Episode 91, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Clip: They’re coming to get you, Barbara!

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, Craig, it has come to this. We have been doing this podcast for a little over almost 2 years now. Yeah. Yeah. And last week, we were hit with the news that George Romero has died.

Craig: Yeah, It’s sad.

Todd: And George Romero, is an icon. He I don’t know about you, but, Night of the Living Dead, his his first film, his most iconic film, was also happens to be one of the most memorable from my childhood.

Craig: It’s it’s funny because it’s so iconic, and I, of course, everybody’s heard of it, but I don’t think that I actually saw the original until I was an adult. It’s funny now that we’re going to be talking about it and we call ourselves kind of a review podcast and I, it almost feels like sacrilege to review this movie, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, what is there to say? What is there to say about this movie that hasn’t already been said. It’s a classic, but, we thought that it would be you know, we talked about doing this movie a lot of times, and it just seemed a fitting time.

Todd: Yeah. You like you said, there are just some movies that almost seem pointless for us to do because they’re too easy.

Craig: Right. But

Todd: Right. But maybe, you know, maybe this We have a lot of younger listeners, maybe people that, have heard of it, but don’t wanna watch a black and white movie, don’t think it’s gonna be scarier don’t think it’s gonna be worth their time. Maybe after they sit and listen to us talk about it and spoil it all, then yeah. They’ll sit down

Craig: and wanna give it another look. We’ll see. I’ll tell you.

Todd: The thing that really got me, about this film, and I watched it when I was young, It is probably the 1st movie that I ever saw that I could say was was bleak, that just absolutely ends poorly for everyone involved. Big spoiler alert. And we’ll we’ll talk about it more later, but, you know, that had a really profound impact on me as a kid. I just never I I honestly do not think that Before I saw this movie that I’d ever seen a movie that ended badly, ever really had a story that’s so tragic. Mhmm. I don’t know. You know, Romeo and Juliet or whatever. I don’t think I was reading Romeo and I’m sure I saw this movie before I I read Shakespeare.

Todd: But, yeah, this this movie just really opened my eyes to the fact that I the world isn’t always a safe, happy place, that things don’t always turn out for the best. And it really forced me to seek out more movies like this. And, honestly, maybe was responsible more than anything else for getting me into the horror genre in the 1st place.

Craig: Yeah. That’s, that’s interesting again, like I said, I don’t think I really thought until I was an adult. I mean, I had seen references to it. I had seen clips all over the place, But the movie came out in 1968, which was well before our time. You know, that was more our parents’ time. And, and when it came out, the MPAA hadn’t even been, created yet. I think it was created like maybe the next year or something like that, or maybe even the same year, but after the release of this movie. And so This movie was presented in the way that many horror movies were presented at the time.

Craig: You know, it was matinee fair. The target audience for that matinee fair was kids, you know, like adolescents and teenagers, and even young kids were going in and Seeing this movie, and I think, it it was pretty shocking for them because like you said, it is bleak and it, and it is, scary. And you know, it’s funny, I’m sure we’ll talk about the bazillions of of movies that were inspired by this or, or at least that this movie had some influence on, but up until this time, And people had never really seen a horror movie like this, where there was a lot of gore and, and violence, You know, up until now, it had been, you know, Bela Lugosi and and the classic Universal Monsters. And and and so this was stuff.

Todd: Right? Like Yeah. Sci fi, cheesy, low budget thrills.

Craig: Yeah. And fun stuff, but but very, very different from this, you know, this is bleak. It is dreary and it is violent and gory. And, it shocked a lot of people. And I think that that may be Part of the reason why it ended up doing so well, this is one of the most successful independent films of all time. I mean, they filmed it on a budget of I think $114,000 And worldwide it ended up grossing like 30 plus $1,000,000. And I think that it was more successful outside of America than it was in America, but

Todd: it was successful here too. And it

Craig: really ushered in a brand new, That’s cool. I mean, just from a Historical perspective, that’s such a cool thing. And for this to be, you know, George Romero had, had been working in the industry a little bit. He worked on Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood, and he had done some other, you know, commercials and I think some public access stuff, but this was his first movie And they filmed it on such a low budget, and the impact that it made on cinematic history is just it’s it’s amazing.

Todd: And, you know, you mentioned the the worldwide gross and all that. It’s it’s well known now that George Romero and his original backers never saw much of any of that money.

Craig: Right.

Todd: It’s also kind of a big tragedy that, the the movie was originally called Night of the Flesh Eaters. And when he found distribution for it, the distributor decided they wanted changed the title to Night of the Living Dead. So when they got in the film footage and changed the title card of the movie, What they neglected to add to it or keep on it was the copyright notice. Yeah. And copyright law at that time was really stupid. It basically just said if you didn’t have a copyright notice on your on your work that you immediately forfeit copyright to

Todd: it.

Craig: Right. Public domain.

Todd: So the minute it was released, unfortunately, to the theaters, they lost copyright to it, and it was his distributor that got all the money. And that was something that really haunted him for quite a while, but I will tell you that It’s because of that, it maybe this movie wouldn’t have had the reach through the years that it’s had today if it were not for that. I mean, it’s hard to say because that is I guarantee you the reason why I saw it as a kid, you know, years later in the eighties, is because this movie was free for anybody to put on television, to put on cable. You could go to a dollar store and see VHS copies and and later DVDs, out the yin yang. Most of them rip or copies of copies, but copies nonetheless. This was a really easy horror movie to find. So Yeah. That’s how I

Craig: got my copy. I got a, you know, in a department store in one of those $1 bins. Yeah.

Todd: Exactly. You know, and there would be, like, parody shows on TV where they would take old public domain movies. You know, Mystery Science Theater obviously did did it a lot. But even before Mystery Science Theater, even Nickelodeon had a TV show called, Turkey TV, which I think was something they imported from Canada. It was, like, on Canadian TV, but Nickelodeon had had it in syndication. And And I remember seeing a parody of this where they had replaced the dialogue with funny dialogue, you know, and, of course, they could

Craig: they could they cut out

Todd: all the, you know, the the bad bits and just, and made it funny. And and so, yeah, this movie just maybe even more so became part of the pop culture landscape because it was so widely available to anybody. And with that killer title and the notoriety that that, you know, came after it, it just seemed to have lasted through all those years. And really honestly still holds up today. I really feel like

Craig: it’s I think so. Yeah. I think it totally holds up today. It’s a good movie, and you said, you know, we’ve got Some younger viewers who maybe are not super interested in old black and white movies. And frankly, I’m one of those assholes. I typically don’t seek out older films like this, but this is one It really stands up. I mean, it’s oh, gosh. You know, there there’s there’s some great acting.

Craig: There’s some not so great acting, but even the not so great acting still fits well within the context of this film. And especially considering that this is a man’s first movie, it’s really strong. Like it’s good storytelling. It’s well paced. It’s well shot. It’s good to look at. Like it looks good.

Todd: I don’t know. Probably Years. Yeah. Yeah. Many years. We were able to find a nice HD quality version on YouTube, and I’ll put a link to that on our website. But if you go back, you know, for for so many years, I grew up on watching these kind of terrible copies of it. And on one hand, the terrible copies of it do the movie a bit more justice because

Craig: Yeah.

Todd: The muddier it is at at in places, the better the makeup looks.

Craig: Agreed. Agreed. And just like some of the, the less quality copies, it, it almost makes it feel grittier. And the movie actually got some praise for that because this was, because of the time period when it was taking place, you know, the Vietnam War was very much in people’s minds and, people, you know, so much news footage had come out of there and it was all very raw and gritty. And this this movie got some praise for kind of, Whether it was intentional or unintentional kind of, emulating that feel, yeah. So some of the grittier copies, you know, this movie almost feels like it should be gritty based on the context. When you clean it up, it looks nice, you know? It’s nice to see people in clear focus, but you’re right. Some of the make up effects show, because they were doing this on a really low budget, So it’s a zombie movie and they thought well we don’t have a lot of money so let’s just kind of make the zombies pale faced with dark Circles around their eyes.

Craig: And you see that in some of the zombies. But as they went on they’re like, Well, let’s try some different stuff. And they started thing, like, morticians’ plastic and rubber and makeup to kind of give some more effects of decay and stuff. And you can, so you can see both. You can see the dark eyed pale zombies, but you also get some shots of the zombies who are in a further state of decay. And, and they all look good. But yeah, when you see it in a really clear, like 4 ks transfer or whatever, I mean, you can tell it’s makeup, but it still looks good regardless.

Todd: Yeah. And the one thing that is exposed in the four k transfer is the quality of the filming. The cinematography in this movie is is pretty good. The lighting is good. The scenes are lit in very dramatic ways. Until now, I hadn’t really Paid attention critically to the way that George Romero had framed up his shots and had lit his scenes and things, but I I have a Really high level of respect for him. I’ve always had a high level of respect for him. Sure.

Todd: But even more so to see that this has really showed a lot of this talent right out of the gate. Of course, like you said, he’d he’d worked in other things before, so, you know, nobody comes in with all these skills, right off the bat. But but when you’re going into a movie, we’ve seen tons of of low budget films that you have to Make apologies for those kinds of things. Great. And you don’t have to make any apologies about almost anything about this movie, really. The writing is good. The acting, as you said, is is good. The cinematography is good.

Todd: The lighting is good. He’s doing some really innovative for the time things with the camera. At times, it’s handheld. The shots too, I noticed there were moments where the shots were very askew, at moments of high tension. And that’s something that, you know, it just kind of escaped my notice before, but, you know, that is a kind of an advanced technique of really giving you a psychological feeling of unease just by the way that you frame the shot that a first time filmmaker wouldn’t necessarily think to do.

Craig: Oh absolutely, and, and I feel like this is just one of those examples where things just kind of fell into place, like every once in a while, You know, with with a movie or or whatever, anything, you know, all the right pieces fall into place and it just works so well despite the fact that maybe it shouldn’t have. The fact that this was this guy’s 1st movie, it was shot on a low budget, it was shot with mostly, you know, non mainstream actors. But it just you mentioned the writing. I agree with you, the writing seems really good. It’s good storytelling and characters are really good, but in researching this, I found out that a lot of the dialogue was improvised as they went along.

Todd: Really?

Craig: And, Yeah, and even the casting of the main character, the main character is, the hero really of the movie is named Ben. And he’s a man named Dwayne Jones. And this character was written as a dumb trucker. And when they did the auditions, Romero cast this guy, Duane Jones, and he was an African American man. And it was not written for an African American man, it was written for a white man, but Romero, and Romero, you know, faced lots of scrutiny at the time and really I think throughout his life People were saying, did you just cast this guy because he was a black guy? And, and he says, absolutely not. It was just that he came in and he did the best audition. Dwayne Jones was a trained stage actor, and he was also a professor of English. He was a highly educated man.

Craig: Like I said, it was written to kind of be this kind of dumb, guy, and he didn’t wanna Play it that way, and so he didn’t play it that way, and he rewrote and revised a lot of the dialogue to really be more reflective of himself as as an educated, strong, black man. And and in 1968, that was just just unheard of To have a strong black male protagonist, especially

Todd: in a movie where he’s the only black guy.

Craig: Yeah. He’s the hero, and he is. He plays it so strong. This guy comes in and immediately he’s Sourceful and smart and even keeled and level headed.

Clip: Don’t worry about him.

Clip: I can handle them. Probably be a lot more of them as soon as they find out about us. Truck is out of gas. This pump on his lock, is there a key?

Craig: And, I mean, you just root for him throughout because he’s such a badass.

Todd: You love him.

Todd: You do. You just love him from the beginning. Don’t you?

Craig: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Todd: Especially with with with what he’s contrasted with. And that’s why I think, again, this being a happy accident, man, it it really did fall into place like a perfect puzzle. We might as well go back, and just kind of jump into the plot real quick.

Craig: Yep. Yep. Go for it.

Todd: It starts out with a car driving down the road, Driving down the road going to put some flowers on, Johnny’s mother’s grave. And you at first in fact, I actually, To this day, I thought that they were boyfriend girlfriend. It wasn’t

Todd: until this viewing that I realized that they’re brother and sister.

Todd: It that just totally escaped me even though they referred to as brother and sister, like, several times in this movie. Right. Then anyway, so they’re gonna go put the flowers on this grave. It’s his it’s his mother’s grave. Right?

Craig: No. It’s it’s their dad.

Todd: Oh, it’s

Craig: their dad. Yeah. Because they have this whole shtick about how The the Johnny, the brother’s like,

Clip: You know, I don’t even remember what

Clip: the man looks like. Johnny, it takes you 5 minutes.

Clip: Yeah. 5 minutes to put the wreath on the grave and 6 hours to drive back and forth. Mother wants to remember, so we trot 200 miles into the country, and she stays at home.

Clip: Well, we’re here, John. Alright?

Craig: And he’s such a jackass. He’s like, I don’t even care. Like, like,

Todd: And she’s kind of an airhead.

Craig: She is an airhead. She’s like kind of this doe eyed, silly girl. And She kind of remains that way throughout which again I’m not gonna really offer any real criticism of this movie because I think that as it is, it’s just Fantastic. But if I were to offer any criticism at all, she is really, I guess you would call her the heroine of the movie, but she’s pretty lame.

Todd: Oh, yeah. Oh, she’s lame.

Craig: And As a character. Not not as a performance. I appreciate the performance. Just the characters. She’s weak. She’s a weak character.

Todd: Well, you know, She starts out as as the heroine, and I think he kinda subverts that about, oh, I don’t know, a third of the way through the movie when you realize that she’s not gonna be any help to anybody. That’s kind of a movie without a heroine in a way. It I feel like Ben is ends up being the guy.

Craig: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. No question.

Todd: Anyway, they get there. They lay the flowers on the grave, and they have a bit of, okay. So this part’s a little forced. Their dialogue, when they’re talking about when they went back there as kids, and who knows why they were playing in a graveyard as kids, especially presumably 3 hours drive away from their their home. I don’t know. They have some dialogue about how she was always scared and, Johnny would jump out from behind a tree and scare her, And she goes, oh, I’m don’t do that. It makes me frightened. And that leads to this line that comes in his taunting of her that is so iconic, which

Clip: to they’re coming to get you, Barbara.

Craig: Oh, god. I don’t care if it’s forced. I don’t care if it’s cheesy. I mean, that is just so iconic. We’ve seen it parody. I mean, we’ve we’ve reviewed movies where they’ve parodied it. And it’s just, that line, I just love it. I love it so much.

Craig: And and it’s because they see kind of this, like, Ambling, shuffling guy in the background, and he’s teasing her like, oh, look. There they are. They’re coming to get you, Barbara. And meanwhile, knowing the context of the movie, we know that this is a zombie that’s coming around. And it does attack her. It’s silly and it’s funny, but oh gosh, I love it so much. I was just, you know, watching this again, like I said, for the 1st time in years, I was just waiting. I’m like, say it.

Craig: Say it. You know, it’s like rock it’s like Rocky Horror Picture Show or something. You’re just waiting for the line. Come on. Come on. That’s right. It’s so good. I love it.

Todd: You know? And and again, talking about inspirations, you have to feel like the screenwriters of It Follows We’re watching this opening scene and going, this is I’ve got an idea for a movie because it is so casually presented, and this again is just the genius of how this is shot for such a low budget, cheap movie. He’s so casually presented in the background. Before they even point him out, you can kinda see him way off, you know, out of focus in the back just shuffling along just like another person in the cemetery walking along.

Craig: Right.

Todd: They make a little brief mention of him, and you kinda see him back there throughout the rest of the scene, but the focus is so much on on Johnny and Barbara that you almost forget about him, except for the fact that, you know, you’re watching a movie called Night of the Living Dead, and you think this Right. Have to be significant. Right? Barbara’s walks right up to him like she’s going to apologize, and he grabs her and starts to, you know, wrestle with her. It’s like he’s, I guess, gonna try to eat her. And Johnny throws her aside, and he wrestles with him. And Johnny gets knocked out on a tombstone, And the guy doesn’t start digging in to eat Johnny. He jumps up and seems to be more interested in Barbara, and so he ambles off against her. And here’s where we see The first of these things that George Romero, I think he he clearly had to make some choices here.

Todd: This isn’t the 1st zombie movie that’s come along. Right? We had Even back, like, you mentioned Bela Lugosi, we had White Zombie. Mhmm. You know, it was always set kind of in voodoo and Haitian. This was the difference that Romero brought to it as he kind of updated it to the modern day and gave you a different reason for the zombies, but he had to make some choices throughout this movie. How are they gonna act? How are they going to what are the rules as it were? What happens when you get bitten? Does anything happen when you get bitten? Who becomes a zombie? When do you become a zombie? All these questions get answered as the movie goes on, and those answers get doled out, little by little, which is another really cool aspect to the writing, I think. 2 things that surprised me, even old many years later. Is first of all, this guy, He’s ambling and shuffling a little bit, but then when he wants to, he can move.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Todd: You know, he really kinda runs after her, honestly, and, chases her to the car. She gets in the car. She tries to to go, but she doesn’t have the keys because Johnny had the keys. And she just puts it in neutral, which is something, you know, you could do back then when we didn’t didn’t have automatics.

Craig: Right. And, this guy

Todd: is coming to her and trying to, you know, punch his way through the window and he can’t. So then he turns around and looks on the ground and grabs a brick and chucks the brick through the window. So not only do you get this zombie that isn’t always necessarily shambling along, but they have some level of intelligence.

Craig: Right. Well, and watching this, it just made me think that we have seen so many zombie movies in our lives, that we kind of have these expectations. You know, I I try to put myself back in the mindset of somebody who had never, Who’s not us, who hasn’t seen these millions of zombie movies, in fact, who maybe had never seen the zombie movie at all. And so they would have no idea What the rules were, or what the expectations were, or even what was going on. So everything, everything would be new and a surprise. You know, it would be a revelation to them when it’s revealed in the film that being bit by one of these creatures could infect you and and kill you and make you a zombie. I don’t know, like it’s just it’s it’s so wild to think This is where it all began. Because we’re so used to it.

Craig: We’re so submerged in it. It’s just cool to look back at this as kind of a a relic.

Todd: Yeah. It it really is. And it’s interesting to see how that got reinterpreted over the years. Right? Like, for the longest time even after this movie, You got the sense I mean, most zombie movies after that, that getting bitten got infected you. You know, there was that whole aspect of the they eat your brains, that became popular even though it’s it’s never a thing in this movie that zombies eat brains in particular. It’s just that they’re craving human flesh. It almost kinda takes a step back from this movie, the some of the subsequent movies in that the zombies aren’t portrayed as particularly intelligent. Right?

Craig: Right. Right. Oh, yeah.

Todd: And then later on, we get, you know, like, 28 Days Later where the, you know, the modern zombie can run. You know? It’s kinda, like, I don’t know. You know, we can we can we can list off hundreds of these movies. But, yeah, there are all these different little takes on it, but it’s funny to see the things that came from this movie And some of the things that were dropped, you know, that that came from this movie that were then later picked up or later played with. And I think He said, you know, a lot of his choices were sometimes matters of necessity. Just like Yeah. What could they afford to do? What could they not afford to do what, what was convenient, for them and rushing through this this movie as it’s written. And so, Again, it’s not like he sat necessarily sat down on at a paper on 1, you know, cold October afternoon and drew up everything.

Todd: Just like every work of art, you know, it’s kind of a work in progress in process that happens over time. So

Craig: Yeah. Well, and what the other thing is What’s interesting is that because no such thing as a zombie movie ex well, like you said, there had been like White Zombie and a couple other things, but, Romero’s idea of what zombies were were really kind of the historical idea of zombies, which are, people who live in people, who are somehow possessed or entranced by voodoo witch doctors, Like in the Caribbean and places like that. And and so that was kind of the concept of what a zombie was at the time. So Romero wasn’t setting out to make a zombie movie. Right. In fact, he was inspired by I am legend. The not any of the films or adaptations, but but the original, novel, I am legend. And and he wanted to do something like that.

Craig: He liked the idea of 1 man being The sole survivor of this epidemic that killed everybody else off, but then, you know, people were coming back, but they were monstrous or whatever. And he kinda wanted to pull it back a little bit Further, let’s not start where there’s only 1 man left. Let’s go back to when this outbreak happened and people were starting to die off. He was so inspired by the novel that I you know, I read that he said somewhere I couldn’t make them vampires Because that’s what they were in the novel, and I couldn’t copy it that directly. So I had to make it something else, And this is the something else that he came up with. And and they don’t even they don’t call them zombies

Todd: in the movies.

Todd: Absolutely not.

Craig: They refer to them as murderers and assassins and eventually ghouls, but the word zombie is never mentioned in this movie. It was only after this came out and and inspired so many other things that we started using that word to refer to these types of antagonists. And again, like, jeez, how cool is that to create something that has become such A huge part of our culture today. I mean, look. You know? The Walking Dead is one of the most popular Series on television. Romero himself was not a big fan of The Walking Dead, but regardless of the fact that he wasn’t a fan, clearly, You know, he inspired this huge huge subgenre of horror, and and I’ll apparently just continue to keep gushing thing about it.

Todd: This could be a very long episode. No.

Craig: No. No. I feel like that’s the thing. Like, I feel like we should get into the plot because it’s important. Really, what’s important about the plot is that Barbara, runs away, and and she ends up finding this farmhouse where she’s alone for a little while, but then eventually Ben, our our true hero, Shows up, and and she’s basically worthless. I mean, she’s she’s pretty much catatonic and just kinda walking around in a catatonic state. Annoyingly

Todd: so. Yeah.

Craig: Yeah. But he comes in, and he’s like, let’s board up the house. Let’s figure out what we’re gonna do. Like like, he is all action. Exact. And he is all action, and he does it, and he does it all by himself. Like, he is just he is He is the man, and he’s boarding up all the windows, and he’s boarding up all the the doors, and they’re fighting off zombies all the time, and like, again, He just knows what to do. He’s seen things.

Craig: The 1st time he saw zombies was, like, at this gas station, and he there was a fire, and he saw that they were afraid of fire. So he’s lighting things on fire and throwing them outside to to keep the zombies at bay. And it works. Like, This guy is just so practical and knows what he’s doing. Eventually these 2 other guys pop out out of the cellar. They had no idea they were down there. And as it turns out, they had been there for a while and they’ve been hiding out in the cellar because that’s the safest place. They’ve got these big boards they can board up the cellar door with.

Craig: Another one of my Favorite parts of the movie, one of my favorite lines of the movie is when these guys come out, Ben, the main guy is like, How

Clip: many guys been down there?

Craig: I could

Clip: use some help up here.

Clip: That’s the cellar. It’s the safest place. You mean you didn’t hear the ratchets you were making up here? How are we supposed to know what was going on? Us. Grabbing those things for all we do. That girl was screaming. Sure, you must know what a girl screaming sounds like. Those things don’t make any noise. Anybody would know somebody that needed help.

Clip: This Look, it’s kinda hard to hear what’s going on

Clip: from down there.

Clip: We thought we could hear screams

Todd: and that

Clip: well, we knew that could have meant those things were in the house afterward. And you wouldn’t come up

Clip: and help.

Clip: Well, if there were more, the racket sounded like the place was being ripped apart. How are we supposed to know what was going on?

Craig: The murder.

Clip: Place in village

Clip: You just got finished saying you couldn’t hear from down Now you say it sound like the place was being ripped apart. It would be nice if you get your story straight, man.

Todd: That’s so true. It’s like you were just listening the whole time?

Todd: What did you think was going on up here?

Craig: Oh, I just thought that was so funny. So the people who are down in the basement are Mr. And Mrs. Cooper, Harry and Helen Cooper, And they have a kid, and all we find out about the kid is that she’s hurt. We don’t really know what’s wrong with her at first. We find out later. And then there’s also this Teenage couple Tom and Judy down there. And so then everybody gets mixed up.

Craig: And then this is what becomes the Part of the movie, and this is really what Romero, I think, is most respected for, is that he sets up these horrific Scenarios. But what the movie is really about is about human interaction. You know, yes, They’re dealing with zombies trying to come in from the inside, but the way that the humans interact with one another Is potentially just as horrible and horrific, and I think that that is really what cemented Romero’s legacy, is that he was able to really tell human stories in these extreme circumstances, and he just does a really, really good job at it.

Todd: Yeah. You know, he starts out really playing to the survivalist fantasy. Right? That you all we’ve all kind of imagined, like, what are we gonna do if, like, some terrible thing happens? It’s up to us to, you know, defend our house. And so how Ben comes in here with a plan, and he’s he’s searching for tools, and he’s grabbing nails, and he’s, like, taking doors off of their hinges to use to board up the walls, and he’s making his how this house into a fortress, and he’s succeeding at it. You know? You’re thinking, yeah. This is the this is a guy I can get behind, and he’s played off against Barbara, who’s this blubbering idiot who’s telling stories that don’t even make sense, who you just hate because she’s absolutely useless, and this guy’s gonna end up protecting her. She doesn’t deserve to be protected, but, you know, you kinda feel like she doesn’t deserve to be protected.

Todd: Right.

Todd: So he’s got, like, this whole survivalist fantasy, you know, worked up in you and then introduces these despair characters, which then devolves into this Lord of the Flies type situation where Right. You know, part of our survivalist fantasy is this thought that we can all band together, You know? And we can beat this outside force or that even though we might have our differences when we’re faced with a common enemy, We see it in literature all the time, but, you know, Romero does it here too where he just breaks that down and, destroys it. You know, he set up this this this fantasy, and then he’s shown you, why it’s ultimately fantasy.

Craig: Right. Yeah. Oh, gosh. And and you mentioned Barbara tells that story. Play that clip because it’s so funny.

Clip: We came to put a wreath on my father’s grave, Johnny, And he said, can I have some candy, Barbara? We didn’t have any. And he said, oh, it’s late. Why did we start so late? And I said, Johnny, if you’d gotten up earlier, we wouldn’t be late. Johnny asked me if I were afraid, and I said, I’m not afraid, Johnny. And then this man started walking up the road. He came slowly, And Johnny kept teasing me and saying, he’s coming to get you, Barbara. And I laughed at him and said, Johnny, stop And then Johnny ran away. And I I went up to this man, and I was going to apologize.

Craig: Why don’t you just keep calm?

Clip: And I looked up, and I said, good eve.

Clip: And he grabbed me. He grabbed me, and he ripped at me. He helped me, and he ripped at my clothes.

Craig: I think you should just calm down. Oh,

Clip: I screamed, Johnny. Johnny, help me. Oh, help me. And he wouldn’t let me go. You rip

Craig: It it’s so funny and and so Pathetic, but again, as I mentioned earlier, a lot of this was ad libbed and that was one, this was one of the parts that was ad libbed, you know, Romero just told her, You’ve gotta tell the story of what happened to you in the cemetery. And she she rolls it out in such, I mean, it seems stupid, but honestly, this woman was traumatized. She probably is in shock, and we’re Crapping on her as a character, which I think is fair because she is such a weak character, but she plays the actress, Judith O’Day plays it really well. I mean it’s really believable. Yeah, you don’t particularly like her as a character But she plays it in a really believable way, so I’ve got to at least give her credit for that. You do wanna slap her around, And at one point, Ben does. Yeah. She she slaps she’s hysterical, And she slaps him, I think, and he just punches her out.

Todd: This is for the best.

Craig: And it is. And again that’s another reason why I feel like he’s such a cool character because he’s so practical. Like, I’m just gonna have to take you out For a while. And he does. And he’s kind to her afterwards, once She’s calmed down, and he’s protective of her afterwards. And I feel like this guy, you know, again, being his freshman Take on this movie. He was just so brave in doing stuff like that. Having a black man punch a white woman In a 1968 film and then having that man be the hero of your film, I mean, what was he thinking?

Todd: You know?

Todd: Well, you know, he says he wasn’t even thinking. He said it wasn’t until later. Now I don’t know if I believe this. I I can’t really believe this, But he said it wasn’t until later that when people started talking about it that he realized the implications of the, you know, the race the casting of black man in this movie. Now I’m sorry, but the movie’s dripping with all kinds of, if that’s the case, Lots of very convenient subtext in a lot of different scenes. You know, even when I was a kid, I felt like the underlying tension perhaps between Harry, and Ben Yeah. Was was a racial thing. Now this time when I watched it again with that knowledge of, you know, George Romero saying it was an accident, I could see how It’s not really written that way, but just his presence in the movie and some of the looks that they give each other and the way he treats him, I think maybe Even as a kid, I was just so tuned into, the unfair way in which African Americans are treated in America that I just I I read that right into their relationship in the movie, and it works.

Craig: Yes. Works really well.

Todd: Which then again makes it all the more subverted that he’s the hero of the movie. Whether it’s a happy accident or not, you just have to evaluate works of art as they turn out, and it’s great in that aspect, it it really serves it really tells that message. It’s there. It’s there for sure.

Craig: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And especially because the guy, that plays Harry. It it mean he’s just a jerk. You know, he’s played by a guy named Carl Hardman. And and he’s, You know, kinda your typical middle aged, entitled white guy who just thinks he’s right and Everybody should listen to him when he’s not, you know, he’s, he’s, he’s wrong and, and he’s illogical. He wants to lock them all up down in the basement. And Ben is like, no, that’s, you know, you’re trapping yourself down here.

Craig: Up here, we’ve got all kinds of options. We can run upstairs. We can run If we need to, but if you trap yourself down there in that basement, then then you’re just stuck. And and that becomes a big conflict. But really, the whole middle part of the movie is just them in the house, interacting with one another, and not knowing what’s going on, And they’re just getting little bits of information from the radio and from the television from time to time. And I thought that the segments where they’re listening to what’s going on on the radio and the TV were so effective because they are just getting little bits and pieces. At first, the radio people are like, We don’t really know what’s going on. You know, lock yourselves up in your houses.

Craig: It appears to be a mass murder by unknown assassins. We don’t know, lock yourself up in your houses. And then later

Clip: Civil defense officials in Cumberland have told newsmen that murder victims show evidence of having been partially devoured by their murderers.

Craig: And, you’ve gotta get to rescue stations. There are rescue stations set up in every city At hospitals and police stations and public buildings and whatnot, eventually it gets to This big explanation, which as I was watching this again this time, part of what I appreciated in the first half of the movie, I was like, Oh, they’re, they’re not gonna try to explain why this is happening. And, and I liked that. I thought, we don’t really need to know why this is happening, that’s not really important. But I forgot that they do eventually explain at least potentially why this is happening.

Clip: So far, All the betting on the answer to that question centers on the recent Explorer satellite shot to Venus. That satellite, you recall, started back to Earth But never got here. That’s the space vehicle which orbited Venus and then prop was purposely destroyed by NASA when scientists discovered it was carrying a mysterious high level radiation with it.

Craig: And they don’t ever confirm that that’s definitively why this is happening. But it’s suggested. And ultimately it doesn’t really matter, but I just found, you know, all of that reporting, on the radio and TV to really be an effective way to kind of inform the plot and inform the characters. I just really liked it.

Todd: I did too. And, you know, it was a little dated, but doesn’t really matter. But I found, like, the the the radio and the TV really puts you in that house with them. You know? I was kinda sitting there, on the edge of my seat waiting to hear the latest development or what little bits and bits of of explanation they could give us, which is exactly how those guys nows were. And, yeah, it was really well done too, I thought. Aside from the fact that you’d you’d wanna see bigger crowds and maybe more news people, you know, they they couldn’t do as much, with the budget that they had. It does seem to focus on that local area around which they are, which is fine because that’s how Generally, you would get your news. I don’t I guess they probably weren’t tuned into a major network.

Todd: It looks like it was more of a regional channel. I know. Then they had to Move the bunny ears.

Clip: Right.

Todd: Right. But,

Todd: you know, this was an interesting aspect of it as well, and I have to feel like there’s something. There’s a message here too. When I was watching, The Land of the Dead that came out, what, 2006 or 2007 Uh-huh. I went there with a bunch of college students, and we watched it. And I thought that movie was fun too. And Romero’s films always have something to say. You know, he took the genre, And he didn’t just create it, but he owned it. You know? He said, I’m gonna do stuff with it.

Todd: And he all every every one of his movies is is a little different in what it’s Trying to get across with the zombies. And it feels though that the the thread that goes throughout all of them is just the unmistakable, unshakable and unstoppable force of progress for good or for bad. What is humanity doing? We’re moving forward, And just like these zombies, and ultimately, whether it’s good or bad, there’s there’s very little or nothing that could be done to stop, You know, the overturning the constant overturning of the status quo. And I feel like even that theme is present, again, whether it was intentional or not in this first movie. Because when Barbara first gets into this house, even for 1968, this is an old house. It’s an old farmhouse, so it has stood at least for decades. It’s out in the middle of a field. You know, we’re in a very rural setting.

Todd: The television that they have has to be hauled down from the upstairs. It’s not, like, you know, in a prominent place in the home. It it’s like a a really old person in 19 8 who maybe has a TV but doesn’t use it very often, there’s an old looking radio that he turns on. Again, for 1968, this radio is classic. It’s like a 1920, 1930 style radio, that they’re using. And so I feel like Even the fact that they’re boarded up in this house, it’s overtaken by the zombies, that this house just stands as a testament to the status quo, the

Todd: old conservative time that has been

Todd: passed by, you know, even at this time. Servitive time that has been passed by, you know, even at this time. And the fact that when they get there, this the owner of the house is dead. They don’t even get to meet her. Like, she’s one of the 1st casualties, and it happens off screen. But she’s been dead for a while, and she’s decayed. And, you know, it’s funny that she doesn’t come back to life. Yeah.

Todd: Yeah. That’s an interesting point of that movie that I’m not sure if that was just overlooked or if there’s a message I yeah.

Craig: I don’t know. It’s just kind Unanswered, I think. But, that the fact that it is set in this kind of, I don’t know if mundane is the right Word, but, you know, this this suburban, rural setting. Again, that was something that was was Kind of new and innovative. You know, I mentioned before, you know, all those, old horror movies, monster movies, They were set in exotic places, you know, Transylvania or, you know, all of these crazy weird places. And this was set at home, you know, like for, for the most, for, for most of America, this is Where you live, you know, this is small town, this is rural, and this could happen here. This, it it doesn’t have to be some exotic locale, Something horrific could happen here. And that was virtually unheard of at, at that time, which is, it just blows the mind.

Craig: Like, That’s so common now, you know, for, for you, for you to see things set in these normal places, but at the time that had not really happened in horror. And it’s good for you, George Romero.

Todd: You’ve done so much for us.

Todd: I would go out to lay some flowers on his grave, but I’m worried about that guy shuffled in the background. I

Craig: Yeah. I mean, ultimately, again, there’s so much, you know. We could talk so much about plot. There’s so much that goes on, but it’s really just a lot of human drama in this house. You know, the big things that happen are, there’s a gas pump outside, which, again, you young ones who listen, you you probably won’t Think about this, but that, you know, wasn’t uncommon, especially in rural areas. People, private people, sometimes had their own gas pumps or there would be a local gas pump at just some random farmhouse where people could go and get gas. So there was, There’s a gas pump there, and at first they can’t find the keys, but then it turns out the keys are in the basement. And then, Ben and Tom go on this mission to get gas and like, you think, You really think, because this is late in the movie, you’re like, oh, yeah.

Craig: They’re gonna get the gas and they’re gonna get out of here. But it just ends up being a total Blunder, you know, they go out there and they can’t get the key that was labeled gas doesn’t really unlock the pump, and so Ben has to And then when Tom pulls the gas out, and this is after he said multiple times how he knows his way around these things.

Clip: He

Todd: pull he pulls it out, and he just shoots gasoline all over the place. And he he shoots it all over the ground. It’s like it. It’s like that gasoline fight Zoolander. Yeah.

Craig: It totally is. And and so the the truck catches on fire, and the girl friend Judy had followed them out there, so she’s in the truck, and Tom and and and Judy get in the truck, and they try to drive away, but, and and they stop, and and Tom tries to get Judy out, but her shirt is stuck in the door. And they end up getting blown up in there. And you know, it’s sad that they die because you like them as characters. They’re very nice young people, good looking young people. You don’t want them to die but they do, and then there’s probably the most grotesque scene of the movie where the zombies are Eating their guts and just like eating their arms and stuff. And, I read that everything that they were eating was just Ham covered in chocolate sauce. And apparently, apparently that combination was So repulsive that they joked that they really didn’t even need to put any makeup on the extras because they all looked so sick just having to eat this stuff.

Craig: But it’s, you know, as as funny as that is, I mean, it’s a really pivotal point of the movie because that’s really been their Only hope for salvation has been this truck. And you and you really think that they’re they’re gonna get away. And then the truck blows up, and and that’s just it. There’s there’s really just no hope.

Todd: Yeah. And it’s it’s again, this is like the beginning of the bleakness for me. Like, a kid, I’m like, oh my gosh. Like, not only did their plan go awry, but it just kind of fizzled out in the dumbest way.

Clip: Yeah.

Todd: The here, people are supposed to know what they’re doing, who just screwed up. Just dumped a bunch of gas every oh, crap. It couldn’t get away. Like, it there’s nothing super dramatic about it.

Craig: Right.

Todd: It’s just, Wow. Now they’re dead, and now they get the added injustice of having their bodies picked apart any Mhmm. By these people, which is the 1st time that we see this. Right? This is the 1st time that

Todd: we

Todd: actually see, human flesh being devoured. And I think it was really smart pace this out a little later in the movie because this movie just builds. It does a really good job of that.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that the news reports do a lot to help That because we keep getting more and more information. Like at first it was just murderers, and then it’s these murderers that are eating their victims. And then we come to find out that if you are bitten by one of these things, Ghouls, as they call them. Then you’re infected, and you’ll eventually die and immediately become one of them. There’s a report on the news.

Clip: In the cold room at the university, we had a cadaver. Cadaver from, which all 4 limbs had been amputated. Sometime early this morning, It opened its eyes and began to move its trunk. It was dead, but it opened its eyes and tried to move.

Craig: I I feel like the guy on the news literally says, drag them out the street, doused them in gasoline, and set them on fire.

Todd: But he’s got a very he’s got a

Todd: very nice, like, 19 fifties style, of way of of of saying this. You know, back when people were a little more eloquent and sensitive in their speech?

Clip: The bereaved will have To forego the dubious comforts that a funeral service will give, they’re just dead flesh.

Todd: Oh, I

Todd: couldn’t be more direct

Craig: Right. And we get that, and we also eventually get the information that they’re really not difficult To kill, you just have to make sure that you destroy their brain. It’s the brain that has been reanimated. You have to destroy that. After the whole explosion outside, then The zombies become very aggressive and they’re getting in the house. And there’s lots of other things like when Ben comes back from this little expedition. Oh

Todd: my god.

Craig: Harry Harry is supposed to let him back in, but he doesn’t. You can see the internal conflict. Do I let this guy back in and risk letting the zombies get in? Or do I just lock myself my family up in the basement. And as much of a jerk as this guy is, I do feel like Romero and the actor did a good job of portraying that conflict. Like, it’s not just, oh, I’m a jerk so I don’t care. It’s weighing your options.

Todd: And it’s great because he could have been a cardboard cut out character. But because he’s played against these other characters in a very skillful way, he’s not. Like, even toward the, you know, the beginning of the movie when when he’s doing the arguing for Locking themselves in the cellar, and he finally stomps off to the cellar. We get a scene of him talking with his wife, and his wife is It almost seems like his wife barely puts up with him. Right?

Craig: And Oh my god. Another one of my favorite lines of the movie. She says something like

Clip: We may not enjoy living together, but dying together isn’t going to solve anything.

Craig: You know, you get this idea of of their relationship in a very brief period of time. These are people who are clearly not happy people.

Todd: Yeah. And she even brings up I mean, you could tell what the conflict is. Like, she he says something about how he’s right, and she says, oh, well, that’s what’s most important to you, isn’t it? Being right. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And and, again, it’s it’s a problem in their relationship. It’s it’s clearly a character flaw that he has. And so it’s you know, it adds some depth to his character.

Todd: At least, it gives some depth to his character that keeps him from being this cardboard cutout. And sure enough, when Ben kicks in the door anyway and comes in, Man, does he give a look to Harry, but he’s way more

Craig: Gives him a look. He beats the shit

Todd: out of him. He eventually does. But but

Todd: what I’m saying is, like, You know, I I he could have just had Harry, like, lock himself in the in the seller completely, but you see that little bit of guilt there. Right? The guilt.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Todd: And you’re right. He beats the crap out of him, and you were so happy that he does it too. You’re like, that’s right, man. Within an inch of his life.

Craig: But at the same time, I’m thinking you probably have better things to do.

Todd: He he ends up shooting him. Yeah. And This is another really shocking thing of this movie is that our hero, Ben, at some point realizes that Some of these people are goners, and it’s better for him to just hasten their end, than it is for him to try to save them. He’s decided Harry is no good and so he just shoots him with the rifle.

Craig: It’s because as he’s boarding up the doors, he drops the gun. And Harry takes it and is pointing it at him and is saying, I’m going down here with my family, screw you. And eventually Ben fights him and gets the gun back and just shoots him. And that is shocking because you don’t expect That kind of behavior from a hero, but realistically, in the heat of the moment, that was probably the right thing to do. Like, this guy, This guy does not have your interest in mind at all. If you’re interested in surviving, you got to look out for yourself.

Todd: I would call it, like, a real walking dead moment. It’s like where there are no good options, and so people end up doing something that is gonna be morally repugnant anyway, but at least it’s it’s The one that’s gonna save their skin. Right. Even still, even after being threatened, even after fighting him off, you don’t often see in a movie where the hero finally gets the gun And then just shoots the guy. Right.

Craig: Right.

Todd: And this leads up to the scenes because while they’re fighting, Barbara is be being besieged by zombies, and they’re reaching through the door. And there are just 3 moments from this movie just in quick succession that all happened at the end that just devastated me as a kid. Yeah. The first of them is the fact that Barbara gets pulled out by her own brother. Yep. He’s the dead guy who is responsible for pulling her out into the waiting zombies. It’s like, oh my gosh. Like, I’d even forgotten about this guy from the beginning, And she was so concerned about her brother.

Todd: And at one point early in the movie, she’s insisting he’s out there. He’s alive. We have to go get him. And there he is dead pulling her in, responsible for her demise. As a kid, that just crushed me.

Craig: It’s so shocking because this is the character that you’ve been with from the beginning, and you don’t Expect her to die. You know, it’s kind of the Marian Crane and Psycho thing. Like, she’s the main character, or at least From the beginning she’s the main character, and so you expect her to make it, and then to see her go, and yes, in such a tragic way to be pulled in, By the Brother, like you said, that she was so concerned about, it is shocking, and I’m not surprised that audiences were shocked by a lot of the things that happened in this movie.

Todd: Well, then, you know, it’s all kind of chaos. Ben isn’t there to help her. Harry stumbles downstairs with his fatal gunshot wound and just reaches out. It’s it’s Really sad, actually. His daughter is still laid out downstairs, knocked out from, you know, what we had learned a little earlier was an actual zombie bite Yeah. Dying, and he just reaches towards her as he falls down to the ground. The mother, How was she she made it up I guess she was upstairs at some point, or she came back down?

Craig: Yeah. She she had no. She had been up there, and she had been trying to keep the zombies out. It was actually, Barbara came out of her catatonic state to kinda try to help That’s right. The mom. But then when Barbara got taken. I feel like the mom ran to the basement and ran downstairs. And this was another thing that Absolutely shocked and appalled audiences and critics was that the daughter becomes Karen becomes, a zombie.

Craig: And when the mother, Helen, comes down, she sees Karen eating Harry, the dad. But it’s, you know, it’s a really interesting scene because while I’m sure she’s horrified, at the same time, This is her daughter, and she’s saying, Oh my baby, she doesn’t retaliate immediately, she doesn’t try to fight and there’s really kind of a graphic scene where The mom, kind of falls back and is is on the ground, and the and Karen gets, like, a a gardening trowel and just Stabs and stabs and stabs her, and you see the blood shooting all over the wall. And, Like, it goes on for a while. It’s it’s pretty gross and intense, and people were shocked and appalled by this child killing their mother.

Todd: When you break this down, it is it’s really upsetting. I mean, First of all, it is the most graphic scene by far in this entire movie. And even by today’s standards, it’s it’s a very graphic scene. Of course, the fact that the daughter is killing her mother. To me, especially as a child, you know, I was I was pretty brutalized by

Todd: this point by the story.

Clip: Sure.

Todd: You know, it just it just brings all these just sick feelings up from your stomach. But the fact that She’s not she didn’t descend on her and start biting into her neck. She looked at the wall, grabbed a gardening trowel and decided to stab her.

Craig: Mhmm.

Todd: Again, this is the way that Romero zombies are are working a little differently, You know, than what we think of automatically when we think of zombies. The one earlier can break up a brick. You know, they can overturn cars. They can knockout. Break

Craig: out your headlights.

Todd: Yeah. Exactly. But and she chooses to pick a gardening trowel up off of the wall and to stab her mother with. And doesn’t even eat her. You know? No. By the time, Ben retreats to the basement, it’s the only place he has left to go to. He boards up the door, comes down. He sees this terrible scene, and he ends up shooting the girl.

Todd: Yeah. So bold. And she

Craig: and shoots them all. Has to shoot them all because they are now zombies. And then this, you know, this is the end. He’s, The zombies have gotten in the house. He has boarded himself up in the cellar. And, you know, what’s gonna happen now? Well, Apparently, as we’ve seen on the news, in the last broadcast that we saw, we saw that law enforcement and the government and the army and all the Special forces have figured out that they’re real these things are really not hard to kill. You just gotta get them in the head. And so once they’ve done that, they’ve put together all of these posses and forces to go out and take them out, and it’s it’s being successful.

Craig: And so the very last scene is we see that this group, It looks like a local group, like, maybe led by some kinda local sheriff. Right.

Todd: And the militia that he could the the militia,

Craig: the militia of good old boys. Right, exactly. That they’ve pulled together and they’re just going out and they’re shooting these zombies in the head And they’ve made their way to the farmhouse and you see them just taking out the zombies left and right. Just, you know, just very Easily and casually shooting them in the head and taking them down. And then you see Ben in the basement, and, he hears this. It’s muffled because he’s down there, so it takes him a while to understand what’s going on. But eventually he hears it, and he goes upstairs, And he’s just, you know, he’s got his gun because he’s, of course, frightened, and he’s kinda looking out the window, and The sheriff just says, Oh, there’s another one. Take him out.

Craig: And the guy just shoots him in the head, and that’s it. Like, What a crazy shocking ending. And then they do this really cool thing as the credits roll where They show images of what’s happening but it’s like it’s really old school crime scene photos, like really gritty black and white crime scene photos. And you see that Ben’s body gets thrown onto a huge heap of bodies right next to the fur, very first zombie that we saw from the graveyard. And then they just get incinerated. I mean, it’s so bleak. This guy had been so resourceful and so strong in the face of this terrible event. And then just to see him so casually taken out with no remorse, with an oops, You know, with no, oh, darn it.

Craig: We got the wrong guy. Nope. They just thought they shot another zombie, and he just got burned with the rest of them. Man.

Todd: By the good old I mean,

Craig: Yeah. Even the good old white boys, I’m sure that didn’t, you know, that didn’t go unnoticed. I am sure.

Todd: Yeah. Plus the I thought those photos are very reminiscent of the, you know, photos of lynchings and things.

Craig: Yes. Very reminiscent.

Todd: The burning. Oh my gosh. Like, I’m sorry. But that’s where I look at it, and I go, there’s no way Romero didn’t know what he was doing here.

Craig: I know.

Todd: I feel the same way.

Craig: But it’s, it’s wild. I mean, yeah, it’s such a bleak and dreary ending, but oh man, I mean it really, It’s impactful. I mean, you feel it. It’s a gut punch at the end that that happens. And and we’ve already talked for way too long, So I’ll try to be brief in this, but seriously, we could list a bazillion movies that were clearly Directly inspired by this. You know, Romero himself directed 5 more of the Dead movies after this. Dawn of the Dead, Extinction of the dead, land of the dead, a millionth, a bazillion. Yeah.

Craig: And then because It’s not copyrighted. It’s been remade a bazillion times. It’s been remade. It’s been animated. It’s been done in comic book form. It’s been done on stage. It’s been done everywhere. It’s been done in different countries.

Craig: It’s been translated into, like, more than 25 different languages. Even movies that, you know, are not specifically about zombies like, The Evil Dead, Cabin in the woods, where you get these people put into remote places with this threat coming from the outside. Just really virtually probably about 50 to 75% of our modern horror has in some way being influenced by this movie. It’s so influential, and it’s so, I just, you know, if you’re listening to this and you haven’t Seen it. You have to watch it. Like, it’s a rule. Like It’s a requirement.

Todd: You don’t listen to this podcast any further. We will ban you.

Craig: You are required to watch this movie. I mean, it just laid the foundation for so many of the things that I love and treasure, and I can’t begin to express What respect I have for this man that we lost. He was an old man, and he had a very long, prolific, successful career. You know, Prolific, successful career. You know, he preferred to stay, more In the indie realm, his 1st studio movie, big studio movie, was a movie called Monkey Shines, which I remember from my childhood, and I remember really, really liking. In fact, I’d like for us to watch that at some point. But he did not have a good thing. And so he, he did, you know, he kind of went back.

Craig: And he did big budget movies beyond that because he was able to because of the respect that he deserved. But, just an artist, I I can’t imagine leaving that kind of legacy.

Todd: I, for 1, I feel really fortunate to have grown up kind of at that crossroads where I did. You know, like I said, this movie, I saw it as child, and so I didn’t get to see a lot of the movies that inspired it until after I saw this one. So in the many ways, I I was It’s I was really lucky seeing it as a child as weird as that sounds. But, you know, like, we talk about all these scenes and about how influential it is. It’s just hard probably for a person nowadays to put themselves in that same place where they hadn’t seen any of this before

Clip: Right.

Todd: Just to know how impactful it could be. However, if you wanna get a little bit of a contemporaneous, a contemporaneous account of This movie, go online and go to Roger Ebert’s site. Another guy, may he rest in peace, one of my favorite, film critics in the whole world, always, Almost always agree with everything he says. He has a review where he went to see Night of the Living Dead when it came out with an audience full of mostly kids and teenagers, And most of his observations are about how the audience reacts to the movie. And it’s really interesting to read because it perfectly mirrored how I, as a kid, reacted to the movie. So you should check that out as well. It’s really good. I agree with you.

Todd: I really like, Almost everything that Romero’s done, it’s not all perfect, but it all has heart. And you can tell this guy as we said before, when we reviewed Martin, he’s a real artist. He really is. And it was probably better for him to work mostly independently as long as he could make it work financially, and he had his tough times. But I think he He seemed to be pretty happy with where he ended up. We’ve gotten a good stable of really good, clever horror films. A man who, in many ways, elevated the whole genre. Absolute.

Todd: He gave it something to say. He showed that horror films could function, could be mainstream movies, and and could be smart, you know, and could be well made.

Clip: Yeah.

Craig: And have something to say. Yeah.

Todd: Yeah. And and they really rose above a lot of the junk, the opportunistic, exploitative junk at the time. You can have an exploitation movie, but you can also have good exploitation movies, and his here certainly were.

Craig: Oh, Absolutely. And before we sign out, I just wanna say that it’s it’s really been a sad couple of weeks. We also lost Martin Landau, Who was an amazing actor, not well known for, you know, horror by any means, but a couple days ago, we also lost John Heard, who everybody loves him from Home Alone, but, he was also in Chud, and and Sharknado. So, you know, he he did his his time in the horror industry too. You know, it’s it’s sad to lose these people that we’ve known for so long and that we’ve grown up with, but they leave behind something, of a legacy, and and and it’s nice to be able to remember them in that way. So George Romero and, Martin Landau and John Heard, we’re still celebrating you, wherever you may be. Thank you for everything that, you’ve given us.

Todd: And don’t come back and Yes.

Todd: Exactly. Well, thank you

Todd: for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us on Itunes, Google Play, or Stitcher, anywhere that your favorite podcasts are presented. You can also find us on Facebook Where we have a page there, you can like us there, share us there also, and join the conversation. Tell us what you think of this movie, and suggest movies you’d like us to do in the future. Until that time, I’m Todd, and I’m Craig with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.