2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

Our 50th episode spectacular! And what would be more spectacular than pitting two horror icons together in a battle to the death? We’re wild about Freddy vs. Jason.

Freddy vs Jason (2003)

Episode 50, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Craig:  Hello, and welcome to the 50th episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Craig. 

Todd:  And I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And today, we thought we would try something a little special, since it is our 50th episode. Since we started out with Wes Craven and since we have done a couple of Nightmare on Elm Street movies already, we thought it might be fun to take a look at 2003’s Freddy versus Jason. Like I said, we’ve done a couple nightmares before. We’ve never really done, Friday 13th yet, but we’ve referenced both, franchises many, many, many times. And I thought this would be a fun one to do for the 50th. Todd, you had never seen this before. Right? 

Todd:  That’s that’s correct. I don’t know this. So I would think I was in Japan at the time when this came out. It was, what, 2,003? So, yeah. That this one kinda flew by me. I have to say I was not as excited about seeing the Freddy versus Jason crossover as I think a lot of the fans were. I know that this film has been in the works for quite some time since the since the mid to late eighties, actually. But I don’t know.   You know, for me, this whole idea of taking 2 people from, these different franchises and pushing them together, kinda like Superman and Batman, or like a comic book, stars, takes a little bit away, from the idea that they exist in what I consider to be 2 different worlds, though technically they really don’t. Right? They both exist on Earth. One’s in Camp Crystal Lake, one is on Elm Street, but it can be argued that, well, I mean, they’re still terrorizing people in everyday settings. So it it it makes sense maybe more so, than a lot of comic book franchises to put these 2 people together. But in in the sense for me it it kinda takes a little bit away from it. It kind of really acknowledges, I guess, what’s obvious to anybody anyway, and that these two characters are really larger than life. They’re really characters. They’re really the superheroes of their own horror genre, and so something like this was bound to happen anyway. 

Craig:  Yeah. Well, I come from the other camp that you’re not in. I was one of those fans who was really hoping, for this crossover. The Friday 13th movies and Nightmare on Elm Street movies were events for me as a kid. I mean these, in my opinion are kind of the 2 biggest horror icons of our generation. I mean of course there’s Michael Myers and Leatherface and Pinhead and and lots of other really good, characters, in the world of horror from the 19 eighties nineties. But these 2 were really just the be all and end all for me. You know, when a new, Nightmare sequel would get announced, I would look forward to it for months, until it finally came out.   The, Friday 13th movies for me were kind of more of a video store thing. I didn’t see them in the theaters so much but, as soon as a new sequel popped up on the video shelves, I would rent it right away. And so this the announcement of this crossover was something that really excited me. I had known that it had been being thrown around, in Hollywood for a long time. Initially, the, obstacle was that, the rights were owned by 2 different, companies, and so they didn’t know how to get past that legal stuff. Eventually, Paramount, bailed on Friday 13th when they stopped being lucrative, and, so the rights were available and people this this movie went through dozens upon dozens of scripts and incarnations before it actually, came to fruition in 2003. And, you know, when it when Paramount first dropped Todd the rights, they were excited to do it. But right around that same time was when Wes Craven made amends with New Line, and he didn’t really have any interest in doing a crossover, so they went with New Nightmare instead.   And so it wasn’t until 2003 that we got this. And I was in the theater opening weekend with my dad, to see this movie. And, you know, I remember I remember coming out of the theater thinking that was pretty good. I don’t remember being super stoked about it. And since then, I’ve not really watched it. I’ve not really rewatched it in its entirety a lot, but it gets played on cable quite a bit, every once in a while. And so I’ve caught bits and pieces of it here and there, and I’ll sit and watch it for a little bit, you know, if it’s on. But I’ve never sat really and watched it from beginning to end, until again today.   And I gotta say, I I thought I came out of it this time, and I think that it’s because this time I was watching it with a more critical eye, I actually came out enjoying it and and thinking that it was a pretty solid effort. Not perfect, but, I thought that they actually did a pretty good job of believably entwining these 2 franchises, in a way that didn’t seem entirely forced. It it felt kind of natural, for these 2, to exist in the same universe, at least for me. And and, you know, like I said, it’s not perfect. It’s got its flaws, and I’m sure it will highlight those as we talk about it, but I thought it was a pretty solid effort. You know, what what did you think? 

Todd:  You know, I I agree with you there, and as as I said before, I think these kind of things are rather silly, but they really avoided getting too silly with it just because, you’re right. They managed to bridge those two worlds in a more believable way and not a cheesy, corny, weird way. I was really curious how they were gonna put these two characters together. And really as it turns out, it makes sense that it’s Freddy versus Jason versus instead of, Jason versus Freddy. Because although we get a good bit of both of them in this film, probably pretty equally and they’re pretty equally matched, Freddie is the instigator. From the beginning we we have a, a voice over where Freddie is talking and basically describing his plan. And his plan is that, it and it’s it’s almost shades of new nightmare in a way, where it takes this idea that there’s a lore that has to be continued in order for the character himself to have power and to be to exist in this world. And I thought that was an interesting touch.   I mean, it goes in a slightly different direction with it, but the idea is a little bit the same, and that is that Freddie has been so forgotten on Elm Street that he no longer has power. He can’t come and visit the kids because the town has been so successful at suppressing the memory of him, that, that he can’t come back. And so he says he scoured the pits of hell, in order to find, someone who he could send back to earth, to rekindle the memory of Freddie. And he finds the perfect person in Jason, and he comes to Jason as his mother, and I guess this is the Jason that’s like lingering around in hell or something. 

Craig:  Yeah, I guess. 

Todd:  Going through memories of kills and killing people and pretending to kill people or whatever, which was interesting, And, comes to him as his mother and says, Jason, you’ve got to go back. 

Clip:  Do you know what your gift is? No matter what they do to you, you cannot die. You can never die. You’ve just been sleeping, honey. But now, the time has come to wake up. Mame has something she wants you to do. I need you to go to Elm Street. The children have been very bad on Elm Street. Rise up, Jason.   Your work is finished. Hear Hear my voice and live again. 

Todd:  And his mother transforms, and we see that his mother is actually Freddie, who’s convinced him to do that. That was really an interesting idea, quite honestly. And I’ll have to admit it. It did work. 

Craig:  I think so too. You know, I that opening sequence, I remember being in the theater. That opening sequence was really exciting because I knew, you know, they were showing all these flashbacks from the other Nightmare films. And I it made me happy to know that they were going to acknowledge the previous films and that really was gonna be a continuation. And then when it jumps to what appears to be a very typical Friday 13th scene with, a young beautiful topless girl, you know, skinny dipping in the lake and then getting chased by Jason. It just felt very, genuine at least in terms of both franchises. And then when you get the crossover where it turns out that this is actually like Jason’s hell dream or whatever, and Freddie’s able to appear to him there, I thought it just worked pretty seamlessly. It was cool to, again, acknowledge the character of missus Voorhees because she’s really the one that started the whole thing with the Friday, franchise.   They tried to get Betsy Palmer back to, reprise her role, but, she felt that, the role, didn’t have enough substance. It well, it wasn’t big enough, for her, and so she didn’t come back. She had kinda done the same thing with, Friday 13th part 2. They had wanted her to reprise her role in that movie, but, she wasn’t satisfied with, the money that they were offering. So she never reprised her role, which is kind of unfortunate. It would have been cool to see her, in this film even in that small cameo. But, yeah, I thought that, you know, you get that all of that stuff, all of that exposition explaining how these two worlds are gonna be crossed happens in, like, the first 5 to 7 minutes, and then we’re just thrown into this new movie. And it feels, you know, while there are tons of references to and homages to both franchises throughout the whole movie.   I mean, they just abound. It it also feels like its own separate thing. You know, kind of like a sister piece or something and, I thought that was really cool. And right, you know, after that, that initial introduction, then we are thrown right into the thick of the movie where where we see Jason appear on Elm Street, and you get the mix of those two iconic scores with the Jason Jason’s and, you know, the Nightmare on Elm Street, kind of lullaby song, and and, they they put them together, and it’s just I don’t know. As a fanboy, it just made me kind of giddy. And then we get right into meeting these teenagers who we know are going to be the teenagers who are gonna have to put up, or or face off against these 2 villains. And and I was I I was in it. I was invested from the beginning. 

Todd:  Yeah. And, you know, that’s one thing I think that the director, Ronnie Yu, he I think he did what? Bride of Chucky before this, and a number of films in China. He has been a fan of this kind of film for a while, and, he seems to be the perfect guy to do it because he managed, as you said, to really give you the flavor of both movies in the movie. It’s really interesting how there is a, I guess, for lack of a better word, there’s a a Friday 13th aesthetic that gets injected into the Elm Street universe. So that Mhmm. You know, the Elm Street universe is this sort of normal neighborhood, that you can walk around in and be safe in and and more or less, but then when you fall asleep, it becomes a sort of nightmarish place. Or just in the heads of kids, it be it it turns into a nightmare, and we have this alternate universe that we see 

Clip:  a lot Mhmm. 

Todd:  In the sense of the broken down Elm Street and the kid the girls jumping rope and whatnot. But what we got here in the beginning with these, kids in the Elm Street house was definitely more of the Jason aesthetic where the outside is dangerous, where it’s dark, and where he’s stalking them from from outside. And it felt very much like, a cabin in one of the Friday 13th movies. I mean, that’s just the the sense that you got from the way that it was shot and the way that it was portrayed. And I thought that was a pretty very skillfully done, quite honestly. I guess the kids in there are Laurie, who’s the somewhat virginal needs to meet a guy gal. You have Kip, who is the girl who’s a little wilder, who’s smoking at the beginning and talking tough. 

Craig:  Gibb is played by, Catherine Isobel, who I just absolutely love. She’s one of my favorite actresses in in horror, today. 

Todd:  She did a pretty good job in this one. And Kia, the the almost the token minority in the movie, I believe, is a member of, Destiny’s Child. Right? 

Craig:  Yeah. Kelly Rowland. Uh-huh. 

Todd:  Kelly Rowland. And, honestly, I’d have to say of all of them, she she was definitely the the more amateur actor. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I I think, if I’m not mistaken, that this was her first movie. I don’t know if she had done any other acting before, but, it was kind of her first movie. And, I’ve read that since the release of the movie, she’s gotten a hard time from a lot of interviewers, and things about her appearance in this movie. But she’s always said that she had a good time making it and it was a success, so she has no regrets. But, yeah. I mean, you can tell that this is not her, her cup of tea necessarily.   And and that’s, you know, it’s fair. It’s her first movie. You know? She’s she’s an amateur, and and she holds her own. Her acting isn’t so poor that it pulled me out of the movie. 

Todd:  I think more than anything, it it just sort of exposed a little bit of the of the silliness of some of the dialogue Yeah. 

Clip:  Sure. 

Todd:  More than anything. But the 3 of them were in the house, and they’re chatting and, discussing, what they’re gonna do. Laurie’s parents Laurie, it’s Laurie’s, parents’ house, and they’re out of Todd. 

Craig:  And so And it’s the Elm Street house. It is. It’s the same, it’s, the same well, it’s actually not the same set piece because they filmed it in a foreign country, but, it’s it resembles and is meant to be the same house from the entire, Nightmare franchise that was originally Nancy’s house, in in part 1. And I liked that too. You know, just all these little I don’t know. I mean, I I feel like it’s fan service, all of these, connections to the originals, and I appreciated that. 

Todd:  Well, and it’s fan service, but it’s also fan service to the point. Like, it’s actually integral to the plot that this be the original house. Because Right. When Jason visits them, oh, there’s a guy named Trey who comes over, who’s the jerk jock guy, who’s, I guess, the cooking up with Gip. Gip and then Blake, who’s his, companion who’s a little more suave, but not quite. Right. Low key who’s trying to hook up with Laurie in in a sense, and, Blake is the fur Trey is the first victim. It’s it’s important because once, Trey is killed in the house in what is a pretty brutal scene, very 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Very brutal. In fact, that is another way I think that, the contrast between Freddie and Jason, is most obvious. Whereas Freddie is almost like a craftsman in a way, I think. Like, he he he’s imaginative and, the ways that people die in his films, I don’t know. I guess you could say are a little more artful. 

Craig:  Yeah. Well, he’s more sadistic. Like, he takes pleasure. You know? He has fun with it. It’s it’s almost like a game to him, whereas Jason is just this lumbering killing force who, you know, I guess, initially, revenge was his motive, but now it just seems like it’s just kind of this is what he does. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And yeah, that that first kill is brutal. Of course, Gib and Trey have sex, which is, you know, the big sin for Jason, you know, it’s gonna get you every time. And, he, Trey first gets stabbed through all the way through his body and all the way through the bed. You see the machete coming up through the bottom of the bed too multiple times before Jason then just folds the bed completely in half, breaking, trace back in the process. And, yeah, it’s it’s it’s really brutal, and I like that it set the tone for that kind of brutality. I read that, New Line initially thought that it was too brutal, and, they wanted it reshot or cut. But, the writers were adamant that they thought that it would work and so they left it in. And I guess that’s like the most talked about kill, in the whole movie. 

Todd:  It is brutal and you know, it’s funny because we’ve come a long way. I know that the earlier ones in the franchise really had to do so much cutting that, that oftentimes the gore effects, which were really good, were only flashed on screen for, like, a minute or 2. And and that’s what they had to do to get an r Craig. And this movie, if held to the same standard, would would be unreleasable with the amount of gun brutality. Actually, I was thinking it has to be the most brutal of the Friday 13th movies in that sense. Don’t you think? 

Craig:  Probably. Yeah. I mean I would guess so. People get that. I mean, it’s been there have been so many of them Yeah. And it’s been so long since I’ve sat and watched all of them. I don’t remember a lot of the details, but I know exactly what you’re talking about. And that wasn’t just the case with, Friday 13th either.   Wes Craven famously butted heads with the head of the, MPAA and and the ratings board, and all all of his movies, he had to make serious cuts, and he was never happy about that. But you’re right. We clearly have come a long way because we can get away with a lot more. 

Todd:  Yeah. And so, of course, he’s killed, and what that does then for the cops who are visiting is it’s shades of Freddy, but they don’t say Freddy. There’s a new cop, kind of on the beat, and, he’s just moved into town not long ago, and he’s the one who gets there first. And, then the I’m sorry. I could say cop, but it’s the sheriffs and and his deputies. And then the sheriff comes in, and, he seems to know right away that this seems like, Freddie is back. But he won’t tell the younger cop, anything about Freddie. He won’t even say the name, but he seems pretty convinced that this is, what it is.   And so now you get that suspense, like, somebody’s remembering. How much remembering is it gonna take, before Freddie could come back into this world? So it’s an interesting conceit that you get Jason to come in and do a killing so brutal and so unusually, yeah, kids folded up into a bed. Right. And in the same house, on Elm Street as before, that it rekindles these adults’ memories and makes it almost impossible for them to suppress the memory of Freddie, which, as we find out, they’ve been actively trying to do because I guess that is what has been effective at keeping him at bay. If you don’t know who Freddy Krueger is, he can’t appear in your dreams. Right? 

Craig:  Yeah. And so what they’ve done, what the town has done is anybody, any of the town’s kids who knew anything or had been affected by Freddy, they have been taken off, to, Weston Hills, which is an is an institution. It’s it’s the same institution where Freddie was conceived and born. It’s the same institution, from Nightmare on Elm Street Part 3, the dream warriors, where the kids were there. And what they’ve done is they’ve taken all those kids there and kept them segregated from the rest of the town, and they’ve been giving them this Craig, Hypnosil, which again, we were introduced to in part Nightmare on Elm Street 3. Nancy was taking Hypnosil and and got the institution to give those kids Hypnosil because it’s a dream suppressant. And so that’s how they’ve effectively wiped Freddie’s memory from from the entire town except for some of the adults. And so when, Laurie is is outside her house and all the cops are there, one of the lower deputies does mention Freddy’s name. 

Clip:  We need to lock this down now. Keep a good day. Do you hear me? Killed in bed. Jesus. It’s even the same damn house. 1428 l. It’s gotta be him. Right? It’s gotta be Freddy Krueger.   Don’t even say that son of a bitch’s name out loud. Let’s just keep it together. You’ve been through too much. Let this thing spread now. 

Craig:  But Laurie heard it. And so she, wants to know, you know, who is this guy, what is going on, but the the cops won’t tell her even when she’s in, the police station, and they’re talking to her and, she’s saying, you know, she just wants to know what’s going on. The police have asked her all these weird names about dreams, but they won’t they’re weird things about dreams, but they won’t tell her anything. And that is when she’s sitting there trying desperately to remember what the name was that she heard, and she’s leaning on the table in the interrogation room trying to remember, trying to remember. Finally, she opens her eyes and says, Freddie. And I thought that it was such a cool conceit that just having the idea planted in her mind and knowing his name was almost enough to allow him to break through. And immediately, she is in a Nightmare on Elm Street dream sequence. Very typical of the Nightmare on Elm Street dream sequences where it’s really spooky.   She’s walking through the, the, police station. There’s a bunch of posters for missing kids on the wall as she walks by. They all follow her, and she hears this little girl crying and and she goes to her, and the girl says, it’s Freddy Krueger. He likes little kids, especially little girls. And she turns around and her eyeball eyeballs have been slashed out. And of course, Laurie is scared, and the little girl says, it’s okay to be afraid. We were all afraid. Warn your friends.   Warn everybody. So, you know, it’s it’s like Freddie wants and needs her to go out and tell her friends about all of this so his power can continue to grow. And I really thought that that was a really clever thing, and that, you know, in the the realm of reality that the movie is set in, a really smart plan. Yeah. Like, of course, she’s gonna tell her friends, and and so I I appreciated that. 

Todd:  Then we get a jump to Westin Hills where we meet Will, and Mark. Will is a kid who’s had some interactions with Laurie in the past. She referred to him earlier as, someone when she was 14 that she had kind of a little relationship with, and then he got he just left, and she didn’t really know what happened to him. Obviously, he’s been institutionalized because he saw something. We find out later, he saw what he thought was Laurie’s dad killing Laurie’s mom. And so Mhmm. Anyway, he’s in this institution along with Mark, this other kid, and Will sees on the screen behind behind the the one of the desks where he’s getting his medication, that some the news that something has happened in that Elm Street house. And that gets him all worried about Laurie because he knows that she lives there.   And so, even though they can’t remember Freddie either, he does worry about her. And so he and, and, Mark end up breaking out in what has to be the easiest easiest way possible, of this place, commandeering his van. Is is it his brother’s van or something that’s all tricked out? 

Craig:  It’s his yeah. It it’s his late brother’s van. Yeah. It’s just it’s this goofy, like, I don’t even know, you know, 19 seventies black lights in the back. It’s some big mural on the outside. It’s funny. 

Todd:  That’s right. And they go to find Laurie, and and they appear in the school to them and say, you know, be careful. But Mark seems to seems to remember more and and he he knows something is up but he doesn’t know quite what it is. He’s the more skeptical one. He’s like, look, we’ve we’ve been given all this hypnosil. There’s clearly something that they’re trying to keep from us, but we just can’t remember what it is. Is it that he starts to come back to him or that he starts having the dreams too? How does that work? 

Craig:  Well, it seems to me I I love that scene in the school because you have those 3 girls. You’ve got, Laurie, Kia, and Gib, all in school, school, and of course, you know, they’re very upset about what’s happened. Not only was was there the first murder, but we also, skipped over a scene where Freddy appeared to the other guy who had been there with, at their little gathering, Blake. And Freddy appears to him and kinda lunges at him, but doesn’t really have the power yet to to kill him, so he allows Jason to do it. And so another one of their friends has been killed over the night and that guy’s dad, both. So they’re obviously upset, and, they’re in the middle of a hall. It’s a busy hallway, and Laurie starts talking about it. 

Clip:  I mean, there was this man, but he was more like a monster really. And they kept calling him Freddy, and he was so real. What what did he look like? He had he had this dark brown hat, and his skin was terribly burned. And then on his right hand, he had, like, these razor fingers. You must be trippy. Oh, you know, a woman, and then there’s these little girls. And then they’re singing. They’re singing. 

Craig:  What I loved about this scene is that they’re standing right in the middle of the hall. It’s the everything’s bustling around them. But as she’s telling the story, people are slowing down and stopping to the point where eventually when she’s about done with her story, everybody is just kind of standing around listening. And again, I thought, oh gosh, Freddie’s plan is so working. You know, this whole high hallway of high school kids is hearing this lore and, you know, that’s making them susceptible. It’s it’s a a raw subject for Mark because his brother, I believe, was a victim of Freddie. And so he kind of has that history, and he knows a little bit more about it than the other kids do. And so he’s kind of able to fill in, some of the gaps there.   But yeah, his, his older brother, I I it it seemed to me had been it it had been blamed on suicide. And maybe he killed himself because he was being tormented by Freddie, I don’t know. But, Freddie definitely had something to do with it. So, Mark is kind of familiar because of that. 

Todd:  Okay. That’s it. Very good. So yeah. So so then there’s a scene in the school, and they take off again. 

Craig:  Bob Shea makes a little cameo as the principal there. Yeah. You can miss it, but he’s there. 

Todd:  For, like, 3 seconds. I thought that was funny. I thought maybe we’d see more of the principal. Maybe they shot a seed and it didn’t work and they cut it, but he just pops in, looks at everything, and then boom, we cut away to the next shot. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd:  But anyway, so what happens then is that Will and Mark are going on their own, little adventure to go do research, and they even go to the library at one point and find that newspaper articles are blacked out. That’s how effective the town has been at keeping this a secret. Of course, blocking out blacking out the newspaper articles only makes things more suspicious, but Right. That’s what they find at the library. They’re kinda putting 2 and 2 together, that something is up. 

Craig:  There’s a big there’s a big, rave that night in in the cornfield, and, the girls decide that they’re gonna go just to kind of get their minds off of what’s going on. And they do and it’s this huge party, and everybody’s drinking and dancing. And, Gib is particularly upset because it was I don’t even know if it’d be fair to call that guy who got killed in the bed her boyfriend. I think they were just messing around. But she’s really upset, and she gets really drunk and wanders off, into the corn by herself, where her dead lover, Trey, appears to her broken and and, you know, looking very dead and says something like, you know, I’ve only been dead a day and hear you out at are out at a kegger getting plowed or something like that. And he says, come on. And he leads her through the cornfield to what looked like, I don’t know, a silo or a grain mill, something like that. But once you get inside, very, very, very reminiscent of Freddie’s boiler room.   And that’s where Freddie appears to her in his classic way, you know, first in silhouette, showing the knives, and he plays, a cat and mouse game with her in this boiler room that’s, you know, virtually identical to scenes that we’ve seen in his previous movies. 

Todd:  Yeah. I mean, the the almost shot for shot, you could reference, oh, that’s a shot from this movie. That’s a shot from this movie. Right. But it it’s good. I mean, it’s kinda nice because it’s the Freddy that we that we know and love. It’s the see it’s the setting that we know and love. And I think it’s very appropriate that the first, well, attempted kill anyway, if you don’t count what happened in the street earlier, which was kind of a quicker blip, by Freddie is in this very iconic boiler room Freddie type setting.   And of course, she’s asleep, so she is laying down in the cornfield, sleeping, and we see her body there and another kid guy come over. And it looks like he’s going to take advantage of her, while she’s sleeping, which is really super creepy. 

Craig:  It was. 

Todd:  I mean, and and even more now so, it’s such a problem. I mean, it’s always been kind of an issue, but this is a kind of issue that’s been brought to the forefront, I think, most recently. So it’s funny because you can tell that this is a 2003 film because there’s a rave scene. Uh-huh. But but in the same sense, it’s remarkably current, I guess. I I don’t know. That’s kinda weird to say about about, kind of a rape scene. But to have a girl who is, incapacitated at a party, being taken advantage of by another guy is almost a modern twist on it’s just a Todd element that just kind of got accidentally thrown in there, you know, into a movie that’s 13 years old. 

Craig:  But Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it’s it’s just something that’s very fresh in our mind because it’s such kind of a hot button issue right now. And I think because we have been so exposed to these types of incidents and, you know, so many people are are standing up and saying this isn’t okay. I think it’s just, really fresh in our mem in our minds because I don’t remember it being so troubling to me, the first time I saw it. But this time I saw it, you know, it felt very real, and scarily so. So, yeah, it was it was it was an it was a hard to watch scene.   And, you know, it’s like maybe 5 seconds, and and there’s nothing graphic going on there, but you see what the intent is, and that’s very uncomfortable. 

Todd:  It is. Yet it provides this really interesting crossover element too. Right? So you have this girl who’s asleep, so she’s in Freddie’s world. She’s susceptible to Freddie, but she’s also having sex. I mean, she isn’t having sex, but there’s a sexual activity happening Right. Which makes her a target for Jason, you know, and that’s exactly what happens. He bursts forward and, kills, basically stabs through both of them, and just as Freddy is about to kill her in the dream. And it’s a really neat shot scene where here she is, cornered inside this locker essentially And Freddie is Mhmm.   Coming in and about to get her when suddenly her chest just bursts forth in blood and there’s blood behind her and she almost folds into herself. And Freddy’s like, what? She was mine. 

Craig:  And Right. 

Todd:  Jason stole his, his first kill away from him and then goes on a bloody rampage through the whole party, like insane bloody rampage, just comes out of the cornfields. He’s on fire. He’s just hacking and slashing people right and left. And I have to admit, I mean, that was a pretty cool scene. 

Craig:  I love that scene. It’s so over the Todd, and I would think that I would read that on paper and say, that’ll never work. It’s it’s way too over the top. It’s so goofy, but it does work. I mean, he he comes out, you know, somebody throws alcohol on him and that’s how he ends up, on fire. But he comes out and he’s this guy that plays Jason in this movie, Ken Kirzinger, I think is like 656 6. I mean, he’s this and he’s huge. He’s a huge guy.   And to see him, you know, fully ablaze coming out of this cornfield, wielding the machete, which is also on on fire, and, he just starts hacking away at these partygoers. And the body count is just crazy. Like, it’s not like he just gets 1 or 2 kids. I mean, like, he’s just, like, plowing through them. And I was trying to keep track up until this point, and I think that by the time this party is over from the beginning of the movie, not even including the first kill, because the first kill was technically a dream, by the end of this party, Jason has already killed 13 people. And aside from the flashbacks, Freddy hasn’t killed anybody. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And and, you know, that I was really kinda surprised. I’m jumping ahead that I’m gonna get, in in the whole movie, the whole body count for the whole movie is, I think, 24. Freddy only kills one of those people. Every other person in the movie is killed by Jason, and I thought that was really I I was surprised by it. I thought that there would be more equal carnage on both sides, but there’s not. Freddy only kills 1 person in the whole movie. 

Todd:  Well, you know what though? It’s it’s really in keeping with, again, their aesthetic. You know, Jason is the hack and slash guy who, a victim is just a a Todd to him, whereas Freddy is definitely more cold and calculating. And if you look at those 2 films, the film series, the Freddy takes his time and is more creative, and there are a lot more effects involved in shooting that kind of movie. So for for both creative and practical reasons, Freddy doesn’t usually have as many victims, overall as Jason does. And so, again, they really kept that balance. It seems unbalanced, but in reality, it’s kinda balanced. And then, of course, you add on top of it the fact that the point is that Jason is killing all these people before Freddie can get to them. And that’s another reason for it, obviously.   And it becomes the perfect catalyst for Freddie to go against Jason to have their Right. Final battle at the end. And I thought that was actually pretty good. That was a pretty organic and natural way because that was my big question going into this movie is, all right, you’ve got these 2 guys, but they’re almost on the same team. Why would they be going against each other at any point? And so that becomes the reason then that Freddie gets frustrated with Jason. He’s unleashed the monster he can’t retract. He’s killing all the kids on Elm Street before he can have a chance to get to them. 

Craig:  Yeah. I thought that was really clever Todd. And and, it does then provide motive for, Jason to wanna take out his adversary because he’s competition now, basically. You know, the the party, of course, breaks up. Everybody screams and runs. The the girls, the remaining girls, Lori and Kia, they jump into Will’s van, and then they’re also joined by this new character who just pops in. I had never noticed this before, but, like, this character just comes in out of nowhere, and it’s almost like we’re just supposed to think he’s been there the whole time, this guy named Bill. He’s kinda the the scouter guy.   Is that his name Bill? Yeah? Yeah. He’s like the 

Todd:  the j of j and silent Bob. 

Craig:  Right. Right. And and then they’ve also got paired up with this nerdy kid, Linderman, who has a crush on Laurie, and he and Kia have kind of a adversarial kind of relationship. But at this point, I in my mind and in my notes, I kept referring to them as the scuba gang because they were just this ragtag group of kids who were running around together trying to figure out the mystery, fighting off the bad guys. Will takes Lori home, and Lori has a confrontation with her dad about what’s really going on, and her dad is evasive and won’t tell her and tells her, you know, just don’t worry about it. I’ll explain everything later. And and, Lori Will has told Lori that he believes that her dad killed her mom, and Lori confronts him about that, and he denies it and says, you know, you don’t understand. But anyway, Laurie is upset and runs away and and hooks back up with Will, and they decide that they’re gonna have to go find Mark because Mark is the one who knows about Freddie, and he can he can help.   Mark is back at his house by himself, and he’s thinking about his brother. And as we come to find out that he’s sleeping, he’s dreaming, and so his brother, appears to him, and and in like a a pool of not a pool, a bathtub, of blood. And this is so random, but the the brother who’s only in it for a few minutes is played by Zack Ward, who is, Scott Farkas, the villain in a Christmas story. And I always think it’s funny when he pops up in things because I always remember him from that movie. 

Todd:  He’s that iconic redhead. Like, it’s hard to even even though he’s much older now, he he looks the same. Yeah. And he looks a little weird. 

Clip:  Yeah. Record. 

Craig:  So and and Mark becomes Freddy’s first and only kill. Mark or Freddie says to Mark, I need you to send a message for me. And Mark says, well, I’m not going to. I’m not gonna do that. He says, well, I guess I’ll have to do it myself. And so he sets him on fire. And and meanwhile, Will and Lori have arrived, and they’re looking in the window, but they can’t get in. So they see all this happening.   His back, is set on fire, and and they see slash marks going across his face. And eventually, he’s, thrown against a wall and and is dead. But they can see that on his back, the words Freddie’s back, have been burned into his back, which was kind of a a a funny little joke, but but adequately frightening, as well. And that’s when they all the remaining kids all hook up at somebody’s house and they start talking about what they’re gonna do. And, Stubbs, the new cop in town, I, just shows up randomly and is going to help them. They’re all everybody’s sitting around a table except Laurie. Laurie’s sitting on the couch, off a little ways. And she they’re talking.   They’re saying, what are we gonna do? Will figures out Freddy’s plan that Jason was supposed to come back and and get them all scared so that Freddy can come back. And Laurie says, Freddy died by fire, Jason by water. How can we use that? And the people around the table start saying, well, maybe maybe Freddie would accept a sacrifice. Who can we sacrifice? Oh, we’ll have to sacrifice a virgin. And they all turn to Lori, And they’re talking about her and and and teasing her in a very crass and uncharacteristic way, and they get up and they’re gonna tie her up, and then her father pops into the picture out of nowhere and says, don’t worry. Daddy’s here. And he he, like, tries to start making out with her. Of course, she freaks out.   And then it’s revealed that it’s Freddie. This is a dream. And, she, as Freddie is trying to kiss her, she grabs hold of his ear. And meanwhile, her friends see that she’s asleep and dreaming and struggling. They wake her up, and she pulls the ear out of the dream. So we get that, you know, that’s something that has happened in most of the Nightmare movies, but they had to establish that it could happen here so that they could incorporate that into their plan, how to get rid of him. 

Todd:  And at least they had that scene because Todd be quite frank, most of the rest of that scene, I think, is a little silly. I think one of the weaknesses of this movie, is that the all of the characters put 2 and 2 together way too easily and almost wait too suddenly. There’s a scene earlier in the van, after Mark and Will have been to the library, where they’re trying to piece together why the memory of Freddie has been why this memory has been suppressed. 

Clip:  How come we were never allowed to call any of our friends, man? How come none of our friends ever called us? We were in a quarantine, man. That’s what Westin Hills was for. Well, even if all you’re saying is true, then why didn’t Freddie kill Laurie? Maybe he’s not strong enough yet. My brother said it’s our fear that gives him his power. Yeah. Well, you sure as hell spread enough fear today at school. You’re right. They want us to forget Freddie so they wouldn’t fear him that What if I screwed up the town’s plan? 

Todd:  Which Right. Which is just such a silly line. So silly and ridiculous. And you get the same thing, I think, here where they’re piecing 2 and 2 together. Oh, Freddy sent Jason here in order to rekindle. I mean, there’s so much they would have to know and so many leaps of logic in the fantasy world that they would have to do to be able to suddenly come up with that conclusion and and have it be correct. It just it’s just kinda dumb. But it it 

Craig:  it does the plot hole, 

Clip:  I guess. 

Craig:  It does. Well, and I think that that’s why they had to do it that way. The initial cut of the movie was 2 and a half hours long, and and that frankly is just too long for this kind of movie. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  So they so they brought people in to to cut it Todd, and I imagine that, we lost some exposition and some more, you know, some investigating. So it seems like they’re drawing fast conclusions. But to be fair, the movie does move at a quick pace. It it never slows down really. There it doesn’t lag anywhere except maybe at this table scene, which is is brief. But it it keeps boom, boom, boom. Things are moving. They’re always on the go.   So, yeah, I think it was an economy thing. You know, they had to keep the the plot moving forward. But, yeah, some some goofy dialogue, in in order to do that. 

Todd:  You had mentioned Laurie’s dad earlier, and that’s another thing I thought they did a great job. Again, I’m incorporating some of that aesthetic in here where the adults and the parents are the problem. That is one of Wes Craven’s hallmarks, really, of most of his movies, are that, parents are evil parents are the threat to the children, and you get that in this movie Todd. Even though they’re doing their best to protect the kids by suppressing these memories, they can’t help but be a threat to them at the end of the day because when Right. When he does come back, he’s gonna come back from with full force. And it’s just that parental thing, you know, by telling somebody something’s forbidden, then that person just wants it more. And so you get this inevitability, the sense that this, this whole community is completely doomed. There’s no way they can suppress this from the kids enough that the kids aren’t eventually going to want to find out about it.   And when they do find out about it, it’s only after the fact that they were going to realize that was a mistake. But then, Laurie’s dad is just really mean about it. I mean, when she confronts him earlier in the house, he doesn’t seem like the caring, loving kind of father here. Of course, he’s being accused of murder, which we find out later wasn’t the case at all. He’s not comforting, in trying to set the record straight with 

Clip:  her. Laurie, mister Deming, you’re upset. We We both are. No. I think what you need now more than anything is to get some rest. Why don’t I give you some pills? That’ll help you sleep, and then we’ll talk about it in the morning. I don’t wanna sleep, dad. I wanna know why you’ve been lying to me.   We’ll talk about it in the morning. Now do what I say. Laurie. Laurie. Laurie. Open the door. Open the door. Oh, wow. 

Craig:  And really, it’s bad because 

Todd:  he’s in he’s he’s kinda between a rock and a hard place. He can’t set the record straight with her because if he tells her the truth, then she’s in even more danger. So, it’s it’s just it’s it’s a really odd and kind of cool bit of complexity that we’re discussing here about this movie or how they made it work. And so as you say, I guess I’m willing to forgive, some leaps in logic in order to move the plot along because some the script is pretty good otherwise, I think. 

Craig:  Mhmm. Mhmm. I think so too. Well, the kids, now that they know what’s going on, they realize that they they’re not safe anywhere. They can’t sleep because they might dream, and there’s the physical threat in their waking life Todd. So they’re not sure what they’re gonna do, but they realize sleep isn’t the problem, dreaming is the problem. And, Will knows about the Hypnosil, so they go to Westin Hills to get some Hypnosil to take. And there’s this interesting scene, in the in the hospital where they’re looking for the hypnosil.   The stoner guy, Bill, goes off on his own to smoke a joint, and when he does, Freddy appears to him in the form of a caterpillar, like a demented version of the caterpillar from Alice in Wonderland Yeah. And and and smokes a bowl with him, which is kinda funny. But then, and the other kids find this whole room lined with beds with, teenagers in comas because they’ve overdosed on hypnocil because the hypnocil wasn’t working on them. And Lori realizes that her dad is in charge of all this and so she’s disgusted by that. The caterpillar and and meanwhile, Jason shows up, breaks down the big metal doors, gets in, Todd, you know, kills the guard. They know he’s there, And, the caterpillar, the when he’s stoned, Bill goes into the room with all the coma kids. And because he’s, I guess, in a stoned daze or he’s dreaming, and I don’t know, they tell him we can’t hear it because they’re whispering, but, they tell him to get the hypnocil and dump it all down the the sink. And he says, I can’t do that.   We need this. But then something drips down on his face, and he looks up, and the Freddy caterpillar is which you don’t see a lot in the Nightmare movies, but in Nightmare 2, which they did acknowledge in that opening sequence, there’s kind of a Freddy possessing, the main character component. So it’s not totally out of canon. So the the other kids are running from Jason. They run-in, they run into Bill in the hallway who’s just standing there, and they’re trying to get him to come with them, but he says in Freddie’s voice, let me take care of this bitch. And they see once they’re behind him that he’s got these 2 enormous syringes of, tranquilizer. And so he just allows Jason to approach him, and as Jason gets up close to him, he takes the 2 syringes and plunges them into his neck and and plunges the tranq in. And it works, but not before, Jason hacks him in half with his machete.   But right after he does that, Jason falls over. He’s out out cold. And that’s when the kids come up with their plan for how they’re gonna how they’re gonna fight Freddie with Jason. 

Todd:  Yeah. They’re gonna basically pit the 2 together. Laurie puts 22 together that obviously these these 2 are not friendly with each other. And so what they’re gonna do is they’re gonna they’re gonna get Jason back to his location at Crystal Lake to give him, I guess, the home court advantage. And Crystal Lake, thankfully, is just down the road. So there we Right. Solved that question. 

Craig:  Who knew who knew that these two things happened within 30 miles of one another all along? 

Todd:  Right. And then she becomes the bait in in in a sense. She goes they go into the dream and she’s going Todd, again, this is from the first movie, she’s going to pull Freddie into this world, where she’s vulnerable, but with Jason there as he’s waking up from the tranquilizers, and they’re gonna duke it out in the real world. Jason obviously seems to be the superior one, in this world. And so it makes a lot of sense that it’s actually a pretty good plan. Always the problem with these these plans as we’ve seen in the other movies is, can they wake the person up out of the dream in time, at the right time, at all? And so that becomes a bit of an issue as well as they’re going through it. 

Craig:  Well, what you mentioned about, you know, Jason having the advantage in his world and Freddie having the advantage in his world, I really like the way that they played that up. Because while Jason’s out, he’s susceptible to Freddy because he’s unconscious. So Freddy can enter into his subconscious, and there’s this really cool scene where they have a fight in the dream world. And in the dream world, Freddy totally has the upper hand. I mean, it’s his world, his rules. He can virtually do anything that he wants. And so he’s throwing Jason around, like Jason’s like a pinball on a pinball machine. You even get the pinball sound effects.   He uses Jason’s own machete against him and impales him with the machete, drops some big piece of boiler room equipment on him, and eventually he says, why won’t you die? Because no matter what he does, he won’t die. But he also gets a glimpse just randomly. There’s a place where water is falling, and, and Freddy’s on one side of the sheet of water and Jason’s on the other and Jason’s approaching, but right as he gets to the water, he stops. And Freddy says, oh, you are afraid of something. And so then Freddy makes it rain in the whole place, and it really reduces Jason to that deformed child, and he physically reverts in the dream world to that, deformed child who had drowned. And j and Freddy, takes his, one of his knife fingers and kind of puts it into Jason’s skull. And we really get to see the interior of Jason’s mind and it flashes us back to the camp, Camp Crystal Lake, when Jason was a kid. And all of the kids are bullying him.   1 of them throws a burlap sack over his head, which is a total throwback to, Friday 13 part 2 because that was what he wore before the hockey mask. Laurie eventually, they give her tranquilizer too so she can go into it and because this is where Freddie is, I guess, she enters into this world too and she witnesses all these things going on. She witnesses the torment, She witnesses the kids pushing Jason into the lake and then leaving him there as she struggles or as he struggles. She runs up to the camp counselors who are literally screwing on the on the on the porch of the camp. And she’s like, aren’t you gonna do anything? And the camp counselor turns around, and it’s Freddy. And so, Laurie runs to try to to rescue this drowning Jason as a child, and she tries to pull him out, but Freddy pulls him back down. And this is when the there’s kind of a funny scene in the car where because Freddie now has in the dream world, Freddie has Jason underwater. In the physical world, he’s beginning to drown.   So he’s unconscious, but he’s coughing up water. And they realize that somebody has to give him CPR and that that falls to, Kia. And of course, you know, she doesn’t wanna do it. It’s kinda comical, her reluctance. But right before she’s able to do it, the he wakes up. Jason bolts up and that frightens everybody and they crash the van. Jason gets thrown out of the van. Everybody else is okay, but Laurie is still unconscious and, they luckily crashed right next to the Camp Crystal Lake sign.   So they are going to head into Crystal Lake, but they can’t wake Laurie up. She and this is one of the coolest scenes I thought from the movie. As soon as Jason disappears, Freddy’s underwater holding Jason down there, Laurie’s up on the dock, as soon as Jason disappears, Freddy looks up and he just says, You. And he leaps out of the water in this beautiful slow mo shot where the water is trailing in this arc behind him, and it’s the the whole scene has gone completely red, and he he confronts her there on the dock. And then they struggle. They end up back at her house, where he, he shows her what actually happened to her mom. It had actually been Freddy who had killed her mom. The dad was trying to save the mom, but it appeared from Will’s perspective that the dad was the one who was actually stabbing her.   But now she knows her dad didn’t actually kill her mom, but she’s she’s and Freddy is tormenting her. He’s hurting her. He’s cutting her. He’s molesting her. And, but there’s nothing that she can do because they can’t get her woken up. I don’t know if it’s because there was too much tranquilizer or if it was because of the Craig, but they take her body, her physical body into a cabin. They’re trying to wake her up, and that’s when Jason shows up. He breaks into the cabin, sets the, not intentionally, but knocks over some gasoline, sets the cabin on fire.   So the fire is burning all around. At some point, Laurie’s arm falls into the fire. And just like burning woke Nancy up in nightmare 1, this wakes her up, and she’s holding on to Freddie at the time. So Freddie gets pulled into the real world, and that’s where the final battle begins. 

Todd:  Yeah. And I think this is a lot more interesting to watch than the earlier confrontation between Freddy and Jason Because and that’s the problem I have with a lot of these kind of movies, like the superhero against superhero, is is you know that they’re they’re both immortal in a sense. They’re nobody’s gonna win. Nobody’s gonna die. So when you’re in the dream world and Freddy is fighting Jason, it just, I don’t know. I kinda tuned out a little bit even though it was it was it was an interesting to watch scene. I I was ready for it to be over. This, however, I was very curious to see how it was gonna turn out, because here they are both in the real world, where, again, Jason does have the the the real advantage.   And you’re thinking, man, they’re not gonna kill Freddie off in this in this one, are they? You know, there’s there’s some real tension. Plus you have that fire and water, so we know that both of their they’re not just a danger to each other, but they each have that that weakness. And it’s kinda cool actually how that ended up, you know. It it poetically makes it work for this movie, almost like it was meant to be even though the franchises were developed completely separately. Right. Yeah. And so here they are. They’re on the dock and the lake and they’re fighting and things and you’re thinking, oh, what what how’s Jason gonna get in the water? How’s Freddie gonna get burned? And I thought that it was pretty interesting.   It was a nice, battle sequence, I guess. Even though at the end of the day, you know they’re not gonna totally kill these characters off, you still wanna see how they’re gonna get offed in this movie, because that’s always an element of these movies anyway. How are you gonna neutralize the threat? How are you gonna put the characters to rest for a little bit, longer? 

Craig:  Well and I really like this scene because it could have been over super quickly. You know, they they could have battled it out really fast, but it it it doesn’t. It goes on for a while, and it’s all interesting. And, you know, they fight in the cabin in the fire for a while, and that’s an interesting set piece. Then they get out, into like this construction area, where, Freddy uses all this and I think that’s a good point. And so, I think that’s a good point. And so, I think that’s a 

Clip:  good point. And so, I think that’s a good point. 

Craig:  And so, I think that’s a Todd point. In this world. And then, yeah, like you said, you know, they they go back and forth and back and forth. Kia gets killed in there somewhere. The the young guy, the nerdy guy dies. So Will and Lori are really the only ones who are left, and they’re witnessing all this. And Will is trying to get them in a boat and get them out of there. 

Clip:  No. We can’t help her anymore. No. I’m staying. Are you all there? You’re Craig. You got what you wanted. You pull Freddy out. Now he’s fighting Jason.   Come on. What would he want? He killed my mother, Will. It was Freddy. My dad covered enough to protect me. He didn’t do it. Look. He has taken everything from us. He has ruined both of our past, and I am not leaving until I see him die. 

Craig:  When Freddy and Jason are fighting on the dock, Lori and Will get, I guess it’s, fuel, boat fuel, and and they spray the whole dock with it, and eventually, set it on fire. So again, you know, the the the fire is on the dock, but they’re right on the water Todd. So it’s both those elements. And it’s a good fight. You know? It’s it’s violent. They’re using each other’s weapons against them. They’re really imposing serious physical damage on one another. Freddy gets his arm ripped off.   Freddy’s able to plunge Jason’s machete deep into his torso. Eventually, the gas tanks explode, and they’re both thrown out into the water. And Will and, Lori think that’s it. They think they’ve won. But then here comes somebody walking towards them on the dock, somebody lumbering in big heavy shoes holding a machete. So you think it’s gonna be Jason, but it’s not. It’s Freddy. And he very menacingly looks at them and raises the machete, and then burst through his chest comes his own glove.   And he looks down and realizes it seems that this is, a mortal wound, or at least that he’s severely compromised. Jason falls back into the water, and we presume that he’s done for. Laurie, Jason or excuse me, Freddie drops the machete. Laurie stands up 

Clip:  Welcome to my world, bitch. 

Craig:  And cuts his head off. And, that’s that’s that’s pretty much where the movie in itself ends. It appears that they have both been defeated. And and I liked it because it felt poetic that they offed each other, and they offed each other with the other’s instrument of death. And I liked that. I liked that kind of a sense of it kind of being a tie, there at the end. But then you get this end cap where we see this mist on the lake. It’s the next day, obviously.   And you see j Jason emerge walking out of the lake, emerging from the lake. You can see that he’s walking towards his cabin that we had visited earlier in the movie, and he’s holding Freddie’s head. And Freddy looks totally dead until it pans down to him and he gives a little wink at the camera, and that’s the end. What did you I’m really interested to see what you thought of that ending. 

Todd:  I figured there’d be something like that at the end. You, you’ve got to, appeal to both, I guess both franchises in a way, that, if, if Jason’s gonna still be alive, Freddy’s gotta still be alive too. And so I really nowadays, I don’t expect these characters to actually be killed off, And, I knew that there would be something at the end of the movie that would give a hint or a nod to leave it open for a sequel, either a sequel to Freddy versus Jason or a sequel in either franchise. And so I wasn’t surprised at that at all. I thought actually it was kind of a clever way of ending it, to be honest. And I guess that’s something that, was it Sean Cunningham, the the, producer who directed the original, Friday 13th movie, kinda came up with it that finally appeased everybody. Because I think there was some contention as to how this was going to end and who is gonna beat who, and that seemed to be the one that everybody was happy with, at the studios. Is that right? 

Craig:  Yeah. It is. And and and they they actually planned multiple different endings. In one ending, an ending they actually shot, this was the ending that they were planning on using. After the big battle, we cut to a scene between Will and Laurie where they are safe and comfortable, and they’re in bed, and they’re fooling around. And it appears that they’re going to have sex for the first time. But right before they do, Will grabs her by the throat and starts strangling her, reaches up his other hand and it’s the Freddy glove. And audiences hated it.   They didn’t understand. They didn’t understand. Was this a dream? Is Will now like some sort of like son of Freddy? Nobody got it. And frankly, I don’t get it either. And so they they scrapped that. There are some really interesting ones. There was one in the final battle where they were battling on, the, the dock. The lake was going to start swirling as though there were a drain that had been plugged at the bottom, and the lake was gonna totally drain to this hole in the bottom that was glowing red.   And they were going to get, Freddy and Jason were gonna get sucked down in there where, they would continue fighting until a bunch of hooked chains shot out and and and stopped them both, and then you would Pinhead would arrive and say, well, what seems to be the problem? 

Clip:  Got it. That would 

Craig:  that would have actually made me really happy. But they there was a rights thing. They couldn’t really get it. Plus the the they, I guess the director thought that Pen Head was a little cheap, compared to the other 2. There was another similar one where they ended up down in hell and Satan watched them battling out in this big gladiator pit, and it was supposed to be implied that the battle would go on forever. Lots of stuff like that. But eventually, they went with the ending that they had. And I remember coming out of the movie thinking that it was kinda cheap, that it was kind of a cop out.   Watching it again now, I don’t really feel that way so much. I thought that it was, you know, I guess I didn’t really want either of them to ultimately lose. Like you said, you know, you don’t want them to really be dead. You want there to be the the chance that they could come back. And so, you know, I think that it was like the whole movie. It’s not perfect, but it’s I can’t I can’t think of a better way that they could have gone with it. And so I think that overall, it was a success, especially if you read some of the ideas that were thrown around in development. There was some really far out stuff going on out there about how to get these 2 icons together.   And some of it was really, really out there, and I think would have been really silly. I think that overall, this this worked really well. 

Todd:  Yeah. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed the movie and, how less critical of it I I ended up being than I thought I would be. Again, the the dialogue is really is really quite silly. And again, that’s just for economy. And to be fair, the dialogue in most of these movies is really silly. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  So it’s not out of character for those films anyway, to make giant leaps of logic and and whatnot. Some some of the movies are better than others. Another thing that, is maybe a knock on this movie but really couldn’t be helped is that Freddy is really best, I think, in shadow. Freddy is really best as the villain who’s lurking behind, who comes out at these moments and and shocks and surprises. And some of the more scary Nightmare on Elm Street movies are the ones where you see less of him, or or when you do see him, you don’t see much of him. And then in this in this film, I felt like you saw an awful lot of him for a really long time, so much so you know, almost as much in some scenes as you see the other human characters. So you get really good looks at his face, really good looks at him, and and after a while, he seems to be a character instead of a supernatural threat. And again, that really can’t be helped because of the kind of movie that you’re doing, but it didn’t really play to his strengths, I think, overall as much as the film played to Jason’s strengths of the sheer brutality of him walking around and killing in the real world. 

Craig:  I agree with you, and I I also thought that it was interesting that they really kinda took liberty with Freddy’s look. His look kind of altered throughout the course of the movie. There are some times when it would be the very traditional look. There are other times, like in some dream sequences, that that scene that I talked about him coming out of the water where his face looks almost demonic, like, almost like a different character. And it didn’t bother me because the effects were cool and I liked it, but I thought it was interesting they took those liberties. It’s interesting that you say that this ends up really kind of being more of a Jason movie, because Robert Shea really pushed for more Freddy stuff here. And I guess they ended up cutting out quite a lot of the Jason stuff. I mean, they eliminated entire characters.   Like, Tommy Jarvis from some of the earlier movies was supposed to be a central character. All that stuff got cut. But I I definitely agree with you that it the balance, it does seem more like Jason gets more to do in this movie than Freddy does. And that’s interesting that the movie comes from New Line. That’s that’s Freddy’s house. But I I actually thought the balance was good. I ended up liking it overall. I thought that it was well shot.   I think as far as all of the entries in either of these franchises, this stands out as one of the strongest entries. Maybe not the strongest. I still I like New Nightmare better in the Nightmare series. But I thought that it, you know, it was well shot. It was well directed. It was it was interesting to look at. I thought overall, it was well 

Todd:  done. Yeah. I have to agree with you. I think, especially in the Friday 13th franchise, which you don’t I’m just more critical of anyway. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  This is a standout. Maybe, maybe the best in that series in my opinion. Maybe. Yeah. But yeah, I, I’m like you and I enjoyed this movie a lot more than I thought I would. You know, after being disappointed by Alien versus Predator, I’m just wary of these ideas where these high concept movies where you’re gonna, like, take these 2 these 2 really frightening characters and turn them into superheroes and pit them against each other in in the way that you would in a comic book. But this movie actually worked, and so for what it was, I was really pretty happy with it. It would be interesting, to see a a sequel.   Yeah. 

Craig:  I don’t think we’ll get a sequel. I think Robert England’s done. At least if we, if we get a sequel, it won’t be with Robert England. And I really don’t even consider a Nightmare on Elm Street movie without Robert Englund a Nightmare on Elm Street movie. Yeah. He is he is that franchise. So I don’t know. You know, they they they thought about a sequel.   They thought about throwing ash from the evil dead into the mix. They actually, that went into comic book form instead. I’ve never, taken a look at it. But, I I doubt we’ll be getting a sequel. And I think that’s okay. I think that it works well as a standalone piece in both of the franchises. And it’s just kind of a little curiosity, a little oddity, something a little bit different and, it was fun to watch again. Thank you very much for listening to this episode, our 50th episode.   Thank you especially to those of you who’ve been with us for the long haul. I know there are some of you out there who are listening every weekend, you know, interacting with us. 

Todd:  Yes. A big shout out to Santosh, Kartik, Manuel, and Andy. 

Craig:  A lot of you all, have been really good to us, and we appreciate it. I’ve been having a lot of fun. I I think Todd has too. Am I right? 

Todd:  Oh, absolutely. 

Craig:  Thank you all for listening to us. If you like this podcast, you can find us on, Stitcher. We’re on Itunes, Facebook, Google Plus every once in a while. We’re out there. And if you do like it, please please share it with your friends. We love to hear from you guys, so, feel free to comment, make suggestions. And, until next time, I’m Craig And I’m Todd. With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

We’re joined this week by special guest Simone Yamshon as we discuss the premiere entry into the Final Destination movie franchise.

Final Destination (2000)

Episode 49, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another edition of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. 

Craig:  I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  And Todd, we have a very special guest with us, all the way from California. Say hello to people, Symone. 

Simone:  Hello. Yes. I flew all the way from California to China just to record this podcast with you guys. I’m very, very excited today. 

Todd:  Yeah. Simone’s been a listener of our podcast. I’ll just say she’s a coworker of mine. She’s totally into horror. And, so she was like, hey, could I have guest on your podcast? And I said, yeah, you passed the test. I’ve watched some movies with her. She’s pretty sharp. 

Craig:  This is gonna be Sweet. I’m really excited. 

Todd:  This is gonna be good. 

Simone:  I’m really, really excited. Thank you for having me. 

Todd:  Oh, it’s great to have you. And in fact, Simone picked the movie for Todd, which was Final Destination. 

Simone:  Yes. This was, a movie I saw, came out in, the year 2000. And I am totally going to date myself here, but I was 10 years old when I first saw this in the theater. But I’m just really excited to talk about it. It’s one of my favorite films. 

Todd:  What was it? So you saw in the theater I think I saw in the theater too. Craig, did you see it in the theater? 

Craig:  I think so. 

Todd:  Alright. So Simone, as a 10 year old watching this movie, would be a little different from I think we were in college. Right, Craig? Or we just graduated 

Craig:  from college. Yeah. Yeah. We were in college for sure. 

Todd:  That’s right. No problem though, Simone. Don’t worry about it. That because that’s an interesting perspective we wouldn’t normally get. This is a movie that for the 2 of us, I think, for Craig and I, this movie comes on the heels of a lot of movies like it, which were markedly different from the films the previous decade. I mean, we’re children of the eighties, and you know what those eighties horror movies 

Simone:  are like. Mhmm. 

Todd:  And then Scream came out. And after that, like, all the movies from the nineties just took this very distinct direction in the look and the feel and the subject matter and where they were located and the, basically, like, really well off white people. Like, the cast of Friends 

Craig:  Yes. 

Todd:  Has bad things happen to them. 

Simone:  Yes. Yes. Exactly. 

Todd:  But So, I mean, we saw the change, but you pretty much grew up with that, I think, as your horror. Or am I wrong? Am I assuming too much? 

Simone:  No. No. No. No. You’re absolutely correct. My kind of start in the horror genre, The Shining was the first, scary movie I ever saw. But, my parents also wanted to make sure that I started off with the classics. So The Shining, Twilight Zone, those kinds of old vintage shows.   But, I did see a lot of the, eighties slasher films growing up. At a very young age, my mom and I would walk to Blockbuster and, like, pick out, you know, the next sequence and events of the Friday 13th or the Nightmare on Elm Streets and things like that. But, yes, I remember seeing Scream, before Final Destination, of course. And and that’s when I really started thinking, well, anyone could be a serial killer. Wow. Like, I even started thinking, like, can my dad be a serial killer? 

Todd:  Is he is he, by the way? 

Craig:  No. No. No. No. No. No. 

Todd:  No. Not that you know of yet. 

Simone:  Not that I know of yet. 

Todd:  Alright. So what was your take on Final Destination then as a 10 year old? How did you come out of that? 

Simone:  What I liked so much, about Final Destination, and I remember even thinking about this as as a 10 year old, was that this is the first scary movie I saw, where really there was no apparent, masked, crazy masked murderer. You know? There was no Freddy Krueger. There was no Jason. This was freak accidents. And I became really, really kind of enamored and fascinated by the idea of like, Oh my Todd, we really can die at any time. And so at 10, kind of had this existential crisis of like, Well, I could get hit by a bus at any moment too. 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. 

Simone:  I I remember leaving the film or leaving the movie that Todd, not only just even more in love with Devon Zawah and Care Smith,   of course.   But heavily, just just really enjoyed, the the way in which, these characters got their demise. 

Todd:  It is different in that the protagonist, is not seen, or the antagonist is not seen. Right? You don’t have, the masseur running around. It’s death. Death is the antagonist. 

Craig:  Yeah. And that’s why, you know, I guess we’re getting a little bit or I’m getting a little bit ahead of myself. But that’s why I think that the, series works so well because you can really set one of these movies in any time, in any place and it will work because death is a constant. So I don’t even remember how many of these movies there were, like 7 or something like that. But I think that this is a franchise that could continue indefinitely because the, you know, the the options are are just limitless. 

Todd:  How many were there, Simone? Simone knows because she’s seen them all. 

Simone:  I have seen them all and in the theater, guilty as charged. Yeah. I understand. And and that’s that’s one of the reasons I think why this first one is so great is because it got me so excited for 2 and 3. I believe there are 5 in total, the 5 being called The Final Destination. And upon doing a little bit more research, I think there’s a 6th one in the making. Really? Yes. 

Craig:  Well and I thought they have all been, you know, to varying degrees, they’ve all been pretty successful. There were some that I liked better than others. The last one I thought was really good. So yeah, I’m glad that there’s another one in development because they’re creative. And part of the fun, you know, it’s not entirely dissimilar from, the soft franchise when part of the fun is just seeing these new creative ways, that that death can take people. And, it’s it’s creative and and, entertaining. 

Todd:  Yeah. It really does become, a puzzle of sorts. And I think, you know, watching it for this was only the second time I’d seen it. I remembered seeing it in the theater. I had not seen it again. I haven’t seen any of the sequels. And I I remembered enjoying it. But I think the second time around, I enjoyed it even more.   Because once you get the hook, once you see what the movie’s about and the movie basically is about a kid, who is in high school who looks like a college aged kid, like all of his friends and everybody in these movies. But he is, it focuses on him and his name is Alex. And he’s getting ready for a senior class trip to Paris. And the whole class is going. There’s a a jerk guy named Carter. There’s a, a Stifler character named Billy. Who’s played by the guy 

Simone:  by Stifler. 

Todd:  There’s the weird girl, Claire, who, is the girl who is just a little odder than everybody else, kinda keeps to herself. And anyway, we meet all these characters later, but it really starts out with Alex at home with his parents, and he’s getting ready to go on the trip. And there are all these little tiny premonitions that are happening. The clock flashes at at 1 o’clock AM, but then the the little line on the digital readout on the clock between, the middle zero has an 8. And 180 is actually their flight. And so, there’s that that he doesn’t even see, but then there are just little things here and there. He doesn’t wanna clip the tags off of his luggage because he feels like it’s bad luck from from his previous trip and his mom says, oh, don’t do Todd. And he cuts it.   Even his dad comes in 

Simone:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Right? And says like this 

Simone:  So, 17, on the loose, senior trip with your friends in Paris, 10 days in the springtime. Live it up, Alex. You got your whole life ahead of you. 

Todd:  Of course, they make no bones about it being an ominous kind of tone, and they Yes. They zoom in on his eyes. It’s really kinda goofy. Mhmm. But you appreciate these things, I think, even more so on the second viewing because you’re so you’re on the lookout for them anyway. But now that you kinda know what’s gonna happen, you’re looking for even more things that might be hidden or more premonitions you might have missed or little coincidences that happen. And that’s really the whole movie is based on this. They he goes to the airport and they get on the plane and amidst all these premonitions, he just feels uneasy about this whole thing.   All these things happen to him, and he falls asleep on the plane and has a a a nightmare, basically. Todd premonition. Yeah. About the plane, going up in flames. And when he wakes up, all those things that he dreamed about start happening up to the point where he freaks out and says, I want off this plane. And he ends up dragging 3 or 4 other people off with him. It’s Carter, that jerk guy and his girlfriend. It’s the Billy character.   It’s his friend. What was his friend’s name? Todd. Todd. His friend Todd. Yeah. I should know that. His friend Todd, get gets off the plane with him, to see if he’s okay. And then one of the teachers, one of the 2 teachers who accompanying them, Valerie, one of the 2 French teachers, goes off as well.   And the authorities won’t let any of them back on the plane. They might Valerie convinces them to to maybe let her on. It’s it’s basically either gonna have to be her or the other teacher who’s who gets on and the other one has to stay, so she ends up convincing him, no. You just go on ahead. And what happens is, the plane blows up just like they, he imagined it would. And that freaks everybody out. So, he’s got a couple agents, who are very interested in why did you know that the plane was going to blow up. And they’re a bit of a thorn in his side for a while, so there’s a suspicion cast on him from that direction.   But there’s also, for example, we mentioned the Craig girl. She gets off the plane because she believes him. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  She thinks this is Todd, and so she gets off. And so there’s this other angle of the people who think that he’s psychic and wanna know what else he knows. And it becomes a really interesting situation that Alex gets put in, as a result of having these premonitions. You’d think that he saved these people’s lives. They’d be really happy. But, that freaks them out even more. And then, of course, the the fact that he had these premonitions keeps his mind open to more premonitions as it goes on. And that’s really the core of the movie, is this idea that we can kinda predict our death in some way because death leaves these clues or these little premonitions that if we’re if we’re smart enough or observant enough, we’ll we’ll pick up on them. 

Craig:  Right. These, the opening sequence I mean, after, you know, there’s a little bit, where his character is established and we get, even in just the opening shots, you know, these these ominous things. Everything in the opening credits are these potentially dangerous threats. We see like a puppet hanging, a book falls over and it’s death of a salesman. You know, it’s really heavy handed, but I think in an effective way, I mean, it really establishes a tone of you need to be watching out for these little details, these little clues. And then with the premonition, the accident scene, I don’t know about you Simone, but these opening sequences, these initial premonitions really throughout the course of the series became what you were really looking forward to and anticipating because they, in the first movie, with the plane crash, you know, it plays out in real time. So unless you’re going in with any foreknowledge, you’re assuming that this is actually happening. And then when, Alex, played by Devin Sawah, wakes up, you realize that it hasn’t actually happened yet.   The opening, explosion of the plane, it’s it’s it’s really scary and and graphic. And it it it only lasts about 2 minutes. In all of the subsequent films, they really played up these these first premonitions. And that was kind of the big exciting opening to every single one of the sequels. The premise remains constant throughout that, yes, death has a design. And if you are smart enough, capable enough, intuitive enough to figure out the design, then you can possibly thwart it. But that opening sequence, I mean, you know, in the theatre, watching that in a big group of people and it’s so intense, that, you know, is is really maybe the most appealing part of, the movie and and the following movies for me. 

Simone:  Yeah. The accident scenes, in in all of the films, I think, I don’t wanna say have gotten better, but you’re absolutely right. It’s something that you’re always looking forward Todd, like, Oh, what’s it going to be for this one? 

Craig:  Uh-huh. 

Simone:  And, they have gotten longer, and even more gorier, almost to the point where it’s a little bit cheesy, especially the one that the accident happens in the Craig track. But what I like so much about this one is that plane accidents, although they are rare, is a huge legitimate fear for most people. And I remember kind of as an inside joke, every time my sister and I would get on a plane, we would always be sitting together. We would check the little knobs on the safety trays in front of you, and we’re like, okay. I swear to Todd, if this one breaks, we’re 

Craig:  getting off. I think that’s part of, with this one in particular, you’re right. The rest of them, they get more outrageous. And arguably, that’s fun, to see them keep pushing the envelope. But this one, like you said, plays on such a common fear and it plays out in exactly the way that you would expect a plane crash to play out. And and that’s what makes it, I think, so scary, you know, with with all the turbulence at first and then, the lights flashing and the oxygen masks dropping. You know, that’s I don’t know about every I guess I can’t speak for everybody, but for me, that’s like my worst nightmare. That’s worst case scenario.   Anytime you sit down in an airplane seat, and so, it it works because it really plays on, a fear that’s common to to anybody who has, traveled by air. 

Todd:  Well, and I think it’s funny that you bring that up too, Craig, because I was thinking the exact same thing. I was thinking, you know, this is a place where they could have saved a lot of money. You know, they didn’t have to show us the entire plane wreck, in such detail and make that scene what had to be a really expensive, scene full of lots of effects. And it really didn’t need to happen because it’s not like there’s any information, in that that we see in that scene that helps us out later with the movie. It’s not like that scene casts a a dark shadow over the rest of the movie, I should say. Because it’s just a crash and a whole bunch of people we don’t really know, you know, end up blowing up and dying. And we’ve just met, you know, a couple of them. Yet, they chose to really draw that scene out and really make it horrible.   And I think you’re onto something there. It sets us up by playing to some of our most common and worst fears, showing us just how well founded those fears can be because this is how bad a plane crash really could be 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  That you’re in it. And then, you know, for everything subsequent to that, we are now confronting the the scary things in our everyday life. And maybe they are as bad as as we think. Maybe the fear of crossing the street and get hitting by getting hit by a bus is, is every bit as real as we as as it as it hits us inside on a gut level. I don’t know. Does that make any sense? 

Simone:  No. I I I think it does. And and like I said, when I first saw this, I thinking like, oh, I I gotta be careful because freak accidents like this can happen all the time. And we we see, kind of accidents like that happening, in the news, or you see those shows like A Thousand Ways to Die or something. And my dad and I kind of coined the term a Final Destination moment. When you see and hear about just these awful, awful ways to go, it’s like, oh, well, that’s a final destination moment there. Because it’s almost like so, outlandish, but also could also be a very, very common way to go. 

Todd:  Right. And also maybe not at the hands of another human. Right? 

Simone:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  And that’s the thing that sets all of these things apart as well in this film is it’s not like death is is is bringing a a killer around the corner towards you. It’s not like death is nudging these people down a dark alley where, you know, somebody’s in waiting to to hurt them. Death is is it’s freak accidents throughout this whole movie that, seeing them on their own, you would just say, oh, this guy committed suicide. Or, oh, this woman, you know, slipped and fell, things like that. Dr. 

Craig:  Mhmm. And the other thing, you know, if somebody who was really paranoid went into this into any of these movies really, well even myself who you know, I just have some kind of mild anxiety, but if you’re thinking about the premise of the movie, if you’re looking for clues, or if you’re looking for these kinds of clues that the main character sees here, you can see them all over the place. You know, the the movie plays it up very ominously with ominous music and and scary stuff, but, you know, just, before they board the plane, Alex is looking up at the boards in the airport and he’s focusing in on the words terminal and departed. Todd, and you know, those things are there all the time. And all of the if you if you I can imagine coming out of this movie and everywhere you go seeing all of these little things that you’re like, Oh Craig. 

Todd:  I’m for sure going to 

Craig:  die in the next 5 minutes because of these little details all around. But they play it well. I mean, yeah, it’s very paranoid. And I think the characters in the movie initially when Alex is trying to explain what’s going on, they think that he’s just being paranoid. But in the context of the movie, in fact, just that he’s, very intuitive and observative and, he’s he’s catching these things that maybe the rest of us or or the other characters wouldn’t catch. 

Simone:  Yes. And I think I think that this first one plays so much on the idea of well is Alex crazy or is he really intuitive in seeing these premonitions by seeing the signs like the piece of shredded, what was that, a hustler magazine? What did he take out? Yeah. Yeah. And it says the word Todd, so he gets that feeling like, Oh, something’s wrong with Todd. This movie really, I think, sets that up, in which the other movies of the series don’t necessarily spend too much time in thinking, oh, am I crazy or am I intuitive? Because they’ll kind of relate it back to the first one. So I really like that this, movie sets up so much with, like, the FBI agents putting so much attention into Alex as to why he’s always shows up at at the scene of the crime or or at the death scene. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Yeah. At some point, Alex, and this is I think this is kind of silly, but I see where it’s just necessary for the movie. After the plane crash, Alex becomes obsessed with plane crashes. Yeah. And and, like, it pans through his room and he has books on planes and he has, like, articles from old plane crashes somewhere else and he’s called things up on his computer. This is kind of pre w w w in some ways. Not totally pre w w, but definitely early days. But it’s like, what is he hoping to discover by examining all these other plane crashes? 

Simone: 

Yes. Yes. And I I hate to be I hate to bring this up, but I turned to Todd and I just said, well, pre 9: 11 magic there. Because anyone else who would go to the library and rent out thousands of books on plane crashes and and start to research plane crashes would have a huge suspicion on 

Todd:  them. Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I definitely thought the same thing. 

Todd:  The one thing that he ends up putting together, obviously, through all this research, is nothing. No. 

Simone:  It wasn’t until, like, the flight details of of the explosion is when real, kind of clues are given Todd as to when, like, the order in which his friends were going to die. 

Todd:  Yeah. His first friend to die is, Todd. Is Todd. And, Todd is has been very supportive of him. He’s probably the one guy who’s been next to him who is treating him pretty normally after this plane crash. But, Todd ends up, dying in a shower. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And that the the other the other interesting thing about this movie, and you guys are gonna have to help me out, I bet it’s just a hallmark of the series, are these crazy Rube Goldberg type ways that people die. Oh, there’s a leak in the toilet and the water comes out and he unplugs this and then he slips on that, which then trips him up in the cord hanging from the shower, which he slides into the tub, which I don’t remember. Was there some gel or some showers 

Craig:  Yeah. Shampoo there or something? 

Simone:  Like, the the shampoo falls and, like, the the liquid that he slipped on was at the bottom of his feet, which made it slippery for him. But you turned to me and you’re like, just curl your knees into your chest and, like, use your arms to hoist yourself. 

Todd:  Use your arms, dude. Like, what was wrong with his arms? Why couldn’t he lift himself up out of that tub? 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Am I wrong about Craig, did you see something that we didn’t see? 

Craig:  Oh, no. No. No. I I I have always thought the same thing. You know, Todd is is probably and I feel like it must kind of just come from the performance of this little quirky actor, But he’s kind of the most endearing character, you know, you feel sorry for him because, he lost his brother on the flight, And he’s the only one that, well, aside from Claire, who is grateful, the rest of everybody else is either fearful of Alex or they kind of place some blame on him. But, Todd is his friend that kind of stands by him. And Todd, they have this big memorial service for the the teenagers that were lost and and the one teacher that was lost. And Todd gets up and speaks about death. 

Simone:  We say that the hour of death cannot be forecast. But but when we say this, we imagine that the hour is placed in an obscure and distant future. Never occurs to us that it has any connection with the day already begun, or that death could arrive this same afternoon. This afternoon which is so certain and which has every hour filled in advance. 

Craig:  And then he’s the first one to go, and it’s kind of, a gut punch. Yeah, you’re right in that the series totally plays up that whole sequence of events, you know, unlikely sequence of events leading up to what appear to the outside world, to be accidents. And with Todd, yeah, and it could come across as convoluted, but I think that the way that it’s played, it comes across more as just, Oh, death is a really tricky guy. Initially, this was the first death that was scripted, it was the first death that was shot, and you know, there’s this whole sequence of events leading up to the fatal accident. But one of the things that you see is he’s shaving in the mirror and you see this dark shadow, across the mirror and he kind of notices it too. And that plays in later to some of the deaths, but less prominently. And I read that initially they had imagined the character of death as being a more prominent actual figure or character in the movie. So you would see the, you know, the shadow as though there were an actual entity there.   And and I guess after Todd’s death, they decided to pull that back a little bit so that it was more conceptual. And if I remember correctly, I’ve seen all the sequels Todd, but it’s been a while. If I remember correctly, they really kind of pulled away from that and and made it just more death as, a concept, rather than an active figure. But yeah, not all yes, he should have just curled his knees up under and stood up. But if I were slipping and sliding and hanging by some weird wire in the shower, I don’t know how logical or rational I would be, in that moment either. So, it’s sad to watch because it plays out over a good 30 seconds and he’s struggling and his eyeballs are bulging and bloodshot, and eventually he just succumbs. But, I don’t know. I thought it was a really tense and suspenseful scene, and I think that that tension, holds throughout.   You know? It’s it’s a very suspenseful movie. You’re always wondering what’s gonna happen next. 

Todd:  Now, Symone, you made a you made a comment during the scene that you felt like that death was cheating a little bit. 

Simone:  Yes. But kind of and I’ll and I’ll talk about why. But I real but I after, like, giving some thought into it, I kind of saw why they did why they made this choice. And this is once Todd finally dies, you see the water from the toilet that was leaking suck back in. And it almost made it seem like like it instead of it being a a freak accident obviously they played it that way to make it seem like Todd’s death was a suicide. Even though when they go to the morgue later, the mortician who ends up being a very vital character in the rest of the series points out, Oh, he has scratch marks around his neck like he was pulling at. He was pulling out this wire. I always thought that it was kind of cheap that they did that.   That death can snap its fingers and make magic appear. 

Todd:  Like cover up his tracks in a way Yeah. In a supernatural way. 

Simone:  Exactly. And again, correct me if I’m wrong. I think this is the only death that’s ruled by suicide in all of the series. And I think the reason why, they kind of went for that choice, as this as Todd’s death by suicide is again, it sets up that, well, no. This wasn’t an accident. He felt so much grief about his brother surviving, or sorry, his brother passing, and staying on the plane and him surviving that took his own life, which kind of puts more emphasis on Alex’s premonitions being as off putting 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Simone:  And why he happened to be there at the same moment or at his house when, the ambulance was taking the body out of the house. Yeah. 

Todd:  It gives an now you we’ve had the grief. We’ve had the the people who are suspicious of Alex. We have but now we also have the person just who just thinks he’s a he’s he’s caused more problems. He’s actually caused problems 

Simone:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  In the for example, the suicide. Mhmm. It’s really crazy how they pile all that on on him Yeah. And his psyche. And it’s no wonder it’s really a good choice, actually. It’s no wonder that he he does by by one scene in the movie where he’s holed himself up in a cabin, which comes later, he does seem crazy. 

Simone:  He does. 

Todd:  He’s really going off the deep end there. 

Craig:  Doctor. Well, and at this point, you know, he suspects that there’s something weird going on, but he doesn’t have any idea what it is. And it’s it’s he goes, to because he has this, you know, it’s not really a premonition, but it’s like clues. You know, the premise is kind of that if you watch, there are clues. And you had already mentioned that he, like, pulled out, you know, like a a nudie magazine and, had had thrown it at a fly or a moth or something, and and a page got, sucked through the fan. And it, you know, the shred that he sees is Todd. So he he knows or he suspects that something’s going on with Todd. And he so when, after Todd has died, he shows up there and you know, is shocked to find what has happened and is sad because it’s his friend.   But of course, that just casts more suspicion on him from from these FBI agents, who are also there. But he also sees that clear is there. So he, after this, goes and visits with her and she says that while they were on the plane, the reason that she got off after his freak out was because she didn’t have a premonition, but she had a bad feeling Todd, and she trusted him. So for whatever reason, they decide to go break into the mortuary to check out Todd’s body and see if they can figure out, anything from that. And this scene, I I I think is really kind of one of the iconic scenes from the movie because they break in and they find Todd’s body, and it jerks. Todd’s arm jerks. But then in comes the mortician played by Tony Todd, who is just, you know, an icon of horror in himself. He’s the candy man, he’s been in a 1000000 horror movies.   And the impression that I have and have always had because this character recurs in most, not all, but most of the sequels, is that really this is kind of the personification, of death. And he has this excellent monologue. 

Clip:  In death, there are no accidents, no coincidences, no mishaps, and no escapes. What you have to realize is that we’re all just a mouse that a cat has by the tail. Every single move we make from the mundane to the monumental, the red light that we stop at or run, the people we have sex with or won’t with us, the airplanes that we ride or walk out of. It’s all part of death’s sadistic design leading to the grave. 

Craig:  Design. Does that mean if you figure out the design, you can cheat death? 

Clip:  Alex, you’ve already done that by walking off the plane. Your friend’s departure shows that death has a new design for all of you. You have to figure out how and when it’s coming back at you. Play how it’s Alex if you think you can get away with it. But remember, the risk of cheating the plan of disrespecting the design could incite a fury that could terrorize even the Grim Reaper. 

Craig:  And that’s when Alex really kind of figures out what’s going on, and that’s when he starts putting together the pieces of, Okay, if I have to figure out what the original design was so that I can figure out what the new design may be. And that’s really the premise that he works on, from that point on. And the next scene after the mortician scene is when all of the remaining survivors from the crash inadvertently convene on this street corner where, Alex has been trying to tell Clear, you know, This is what’s happening. Death has a design. And she’s not buying into it, but they all end up on this street corner and the puzzle pieces just continue to, lay themselves out. 

Todd:  And that’s goofy, but then I guess you can read in another way. I mean, when I was watching this, I was thinking, oh my okay. So they all happen to be converging in the cafe at the same time. But then I guess you kinda wonder, is this part of Death’s design? Is he toying with them in this way? Which raises, I think, an interesting question, period. And that is, is he toying with them? Is Alex special in some way? Is he, for some reason, choosing to give Alex, premonitions that he’s not giving anyone else? Or do we are we all gonna be getting these premonitions, we’re just not smart enough or intuitive enough to pick up on them? I mean, why Alex, you know, down the street and across town, is gonna get a little shard of paper falling in his lap that says Todd? Why wouldn’t Todd just die? Why wouldn’t Todd, you know, death just make Todd die? Maybe Todd himself would see premonitions as he did in the mirror. But why would Alex see premonitions of another person’s death? You know what I mean? 

Craig:  Aside from the initial premonition, which always happens in all of the sequels, one person gets this premonition. Aside from that, I think that what they’re suggesting is that the clues are always there. They’re always around, It’s just that we are not receptive to them in most cases. And for whatever reason, you know, these certain individuals, I don’t know why they are given these premonitions. But you know, we all, and they usually don’t amount to anything, but we all have bad feelings, about things sometimes. And I think that we all imagine worst case scenarios sometimes. So maybe that’s what the whole premonition deal is. But I actually like that suggestion that it’s not a matter of, Oh, one person is being given these clues.   It’s that the clues are always there. We’re just not always open and receptive to them. And I think that’s a scary thought. You know, if you’re willing to suspend your disbelief and think that that’s actually a possibility, then you’re gonna become a paranoid schizophrenic. Yeah. 

Todd:  Well, and the clues veer into the supernatural as well, which I don’t know. Actually, I felt was maybe a little weak. Death seems to come in reflections more often than anything else. 

Simone:  Yes. Like, at that moment where all of the characters meet up again, Alex looks into, the reflection mirror of the cafe that they’re sitting and he, sees a bus go by, but when the camera pans out to the other side, there is no bus. And that’s where the next character, Terry, gets her 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. 

Simone:  Upcoming, which was, I think, my favorite death when I saw it for the first time because it was just, wham, out of nowhere. Like, you can just drop dead. Boom. And she does. And we loved that. I mean, like, I watched so many horror movies growing up and I think, my parents were never as concerned with, like, the gore and the blood as they were with, like, the sex and the cursing. So I think I think my mom might have whinged at all of the f bombs in that movie. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Simone:  Less than, like, oh, this girl just got hit by a bus and, like, blood splatters everywhere. 

Todd:  But isn’t that the scene though? I don’t know about you guys, but that’s a scene I remembered. I mean, you you mentioned this movie. That’s the one scene that comes to mind right off the bat. It’s so shocking. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. It is. It it’s shocking in in a really effective way. And and almost, you know, as as a horror fan, you feel bad for that character. She she doesn’t have much character, frankly. She, you know, she’s kind of the popular ditzy girl, who’s just Carter’s girlfriend and that’s really the only role that she plays. But in this one moment where she kind of stands up and says, I’m not gonna take this anymore.   I’m not gonna allow this to control my life. And then she just steps right off the curb and this bus just comes out of nowhere and it’s so fast. As a horror fan, as badly as you feel for this girl, it almost brings a smile to your face just because it was so it’s so quick and and unexpected, and and I I love that scene. 

Todd:  It does come out of the blue. Yeah. But but there is a point in which the premonition it wasn’t like a a piece of paper flitting into a fan and, you know, it got cut up and and a and a chunk happened to land on your lap. Or, you know, this was very definitely supernatural. There’s a reflection in the mirror that shouldn’t be there. Do you think this is just this character who can see it? Or that anybody who is looking at that window at that moment would have been able to see it? 

Craig:  I don’t know. I I I I guess I guess since nobody else ever does and since it’s not a natural phenomenon, I guess maybe there is something skipping 

Simone:  ahead a little bit, but at the end scene, when they skipping ahead a little bit, but at the end scene, when they do go to Paris, 6 months later, which to me seems a little soon, after all of this tragedy to go through maybe 6 months later. I could see 6 years later, but they’re finally in Paris. They’re toasting to life and and all of a sudden Alex starts to feel weird and he starts to kind of get this feeling like, well, okay, maybe we didn’t cheat death. Maybe we it’s going to happen. Craig gets this vision. She sees the bus out of a window and yells, Alex. And he kind of jumps back, away from the bus, which, skips Alex and then goes to Carter. Doctor. 

Craig:  Yeah. That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, I forgotten about that. So maybe not. I don’t know. The plot, you know, it’s tense and it it it’s well paced, I think. It Todd doesn’t really ever get boring.   But I don’t know about you guys, but I just kind of it’s it’s not like I was impatient for it, but what you’re waiting for is the next death. Alex figures out that he sees on the news that this they suspect that this explosion on the plane was caused by a systems failure, and it it the explosion, followed, I I think, like a a fuel line or or something along those lines. They they track on the screen where the various, explosions on the plane happen. And he is able to overlay the seating plan, onto that and so he can see who would who would have been next each time. And so he figures out after, Terry dies, that Ms. Luton is going to be next. And so he, goes to her house and is kind of watching, which she sees and she’s already scared of him. He tried to approach her at the memorial and she said, Stay away from me.   You scare me to death or something like that. 

Simone:  You scare the hell out 

Craig:  of me. Right. Right. Which yeah. Good job, teacher. That’s really sympathetic. So supportive. Right.   But, but, so then, you know, each time we’re just waiting, we know somebody else is gonna get it. We’re just waiting to see how it’s going to play out, because we’ve seen how elaborately these things play out. And, miss Luton’s death is is, you know, totally in keeping with that. 

Todd:  Super convoluted. Like, it’s like, again, a total Rube Goldberg thing. And, you know, part of the pleasure of this movie, I guess, is is seeing this play out and seeing the setup for it. Right? It’s Mhmm. It’s like, again, like the pleasure of the Friday 13th movie is seeing the creative way a person’s gonna die. This is that, but in sort of a puzzle way. Right? 

Simone:  Yeah. And, again, it kind of all starts with we have 2 kind of big premonitions here. The first one, she starts playing the John Denver record, which of course, John Denver died in a plane crash. Each movie kinda has its own unique theme song to it. This one, I think it’s just John Denver as a musical artist is kind of a big premonition. And then the other one, Todd, you pointed out that I’ve never noticed, and I’ve seen this movie a ton of times, was her stained glass window with a knife. 

Todd:  Oh, the dagger in the in the behind her. Yeah. 

Simone:  Yes. The dagger. Yes. And, you were like, oh, there’s the dagger. And I was like, oh, god darn. I never noticed that before. 

Todd:  Yeah. Just looking for those things in the background. Mhmm. You know, watching it the second time, I was just eagle eyed for those things. I think that must be part of the charm. I hope the subsequent movies hide a lot of things like that in it as well. 

Simone:  Yeah. I think I think a little bit. 

Craig:  With her death, you know, like you said, it’s it’s so convoluted, but it it it’s not entirely impossible. And you know, I guess that any accident, you know, comes from a series of events. And one would you could never imagine that something like this could happen. So she she makes some tea and she pours hot tea into her mug and then she notices that the name of the high school is on the mug and that freaks her out because she’s still traumatized by this. So she tosses out the tea, and instead of tea, she gets, vodka out of the freezer, and she puts ice in the vodka in the glass, which probably would shatter the glass, you know, that intense, change from hot to cold. And it just Craig, so her vodka’s leaking out as she’s walking around. And she leans over her computer monitor for some reason and the vodka drips in there which causes, an electrical fire and and the the computer explodes and and she gets a shard of glass in her neck and and then she slips in the blood and falls down on her back in the kitchen and she reaches up to try to grab a kitchen towel, but the towel’s draped over, the the block of knives, and she pulls it down and the knife falls into her chest. You know, you That would never happen, or at least you wouldn’t expect it to happen, but it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibilities.   The rest of the series, it continues in that fashion. These deaths all seem so unlikely. Unlikely, but not impossible. And that’s what I think makes it, you know, kind of scary. You know, it plausibly could happen. You would never expect it to happen, but when do you ever expect an accident? You know, if you expected an accident, then the accident probably wouldn’t happen. So, I I like that. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s cool. Although, I have to say, however I die, whatever form it takes, I absolutely do not want it in any way, shape, or form to involve me slipping in my own blood. That’s all I’ve gotta say. But but, yeah. Another one of those weird coincidences that makes me wonder if death isn’t also orchestrating their meet ups, is that Billy happens to be riding by on his bike at exactly that moment when he when, Alex runs out of, Valerie’s house unable to save her and the house explodes. 

Craig:  Well, right. And he’s again, you know, in these extreme circumstances, you’re really not thinking very well. But he the police found him outside her house before any of this all happened. So they’re because she called them. So they’re already suspicious of him, but they released him because they didn’t have anything to hold him on and he went immediately back, which the timing doesn’t match up at all. There’s no way that they would have had time to take him somewhere, interrogate him, and then for him to get back before all this happened because it seems to be only minutes. You know, Rocky Mountain High is playing the whole time. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. But he gets back, and he goes in, to, I I guess, try to save her, but she’s already gone, really. Yeah. And, but he he, you know, he’s he’s tracking her blood through the house with his shoes. He he pulls the knife out of her and doesn’t even realize until after he’s done so that obviously his fingerprints are now gonna be on the knife. So, after this, and the Sean William Scott character sees him coming out, so, everything would point to him. And so he’s on, the run now basically. He goes to Clear and then Clear pulls the other 2 guys, Billy and Carter, together, so that they can talk this out because now she finally believes him.   And so then, again, you know, they’re they’re all together. They’re driving around. And Carter, who has been this kind of jerk character throughout, decides that he is not going to allow some other force to determine his fate. 

Clip:  Yeah. You get off having control over me. You let me decide how to deal with it. 

Simone:  It doesn’t matter who’s next because we’re all on the 

Clip:  same list, all of us. Then why bother? I mean, what’s the point. Right? Me and Terry, we’ll be back together on the other side. So why wait any longer? 

Craig:  Carl, what are you doing? And so he goes on this big reckless driving spree, and everybody else is freaking out. But eventually, they stop, on a train track, and, Alex has explained to them what’s going on that it’s next and Carter believes it’s going to be him. And Alex doesn’t refute that. He doesn’t affirm it either, but he doesn’t refute it. And so they stop on these train tracks and, a train is coming. The rest of the characters get out, but Carter is just kind of sitting there, like, I’m gonna do this on my own terms. And at the last minute, he decides, you know, that he wants to get out, but he can’t. The seat belt sticks.   He can’t get out. And Alex goes to help pull him out, and the train is, like, you know, right there. But he pulls him out at the very last minute, and so they think that, they have once again cheated death. But the Billy character, Sean William Scott, is standing there right next to the train tracks and we see this piece of shrapnel from the car had been hit and we see this piece of shrapnel rattling underneath, the Craig. And as Billy’s standing there saying, You’re next, Carter. You’re next. It’s going to be you. You’re dead.   You’re dead. This piece of shrapnel shoots out from under the train and chops the whole top part of his head off. But this is kind of when Alex puts together that if you are able to change death’s design, then the design changes and it just moves on to the next person. So you can cheat it, but it’s going to move on to the next person. And what was kind of funny to me, they don’t even realize this until the very last scene that Simone already referenced when they’re in Paris. What they don’t put together is, Yeah, you can cheat it and you can move it on to the next person, but once it’s cycled through the rest of the people, it’s gonna loop back around. But they don’t put that back together, until the end. Yeah. 

Simone:  Yeah. And, and Craig bringing back up that point where where Carter says, Oh, I’m I’m gonna take my I control my life. I control my death. And then kind of plays that cool guy like, It just ain’t my time. And then turns the keys to his engine like he’s going to go suavely, like, drive off, half the train tracks even though, like, the guard rail’s already down. All of a sudden, death kind of works in this, like, magical, kind of paranormal way where, like, the locks all of a sudden go down and he can’t jiggle the door open. And the engine won’t start. And all of a sudden his seat belt is glued together.   He can’t unbuckle it. But Alex had had this kind of premonition in the car earlier. He saw the seat belt rip, which he kind of explained later, like, I saw the seat belt rip, which is why I knew I was able to save Carter. So here, death kind of works like, Uh-uh, Carter. I’m gonna kill you because you’re you’re still sitting in this car, but then, is is cheated once more because Alex saw this premonition of of of the seat belt tearing. 

Todd:  Which is interesting. Like, so death gave him a clue. Like, hey. Here’s how you could get him out possibly. 

Simone:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  Like, to me, that doesn’t quite jive 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Right, with the with the whole premonition thing. I don’t know. Like, that that was a weird moment for me. Like, why did death clue him in to how he could get Carter out of it? 

Simone:  It’s almost like Death is setting up exposition. Like, to to to kind of move the plot along, and that’s why they were able to bring up the idea, which Craig you brought up earlier, that’s when they really discovered, okay, if it skips one person, then it just immediately goes on to the next. 

Todd:  Like, Death wants them to know. Like, wants them to discover this or something. Like, he’s really playing with them or something. 

Simone:  Sly hit there, death. I see what you did. 

Craig:  Well, it’s ambiguous. You know, they and I don’t remember. Like I said, it’s been so long since I’ve seen the sequels, but it’s ambiguous. Is it death providing the clues? Because that doesn’t really make much sense. Why would Yeah. Yeah. If we’re considering death as an entity, why would it why would it give clues? It doesn’t really make any sense. Is it something else? Is there some other force that’s maybe working against death or giving these characters a chance? And it’s just ambiguous, you know, I don’t think that it’s ever expanded upon, but it it’s it’s it’s clever, and it it it makes for for a nice suspenseful story. 

Todd:  Yeah. All I know is that if I I would not be getting in the same car or be anywhere near the other 3 people who are marked for death if I was also marked for death. 

Simone:  Yes. Yes. 

Todd:  That was a big mistake. That was a big mistake from the beginning. 

Simone:  Yeah. You turned to me at the because we watched the movie together. You why are they all together? 

Todd:  You are an easy target here, guys. 

Craig:  Yeah. Right. Well, and that’s the other thing too. If if they were if if death if death was trying to take them all out, why wouldn’t it just lock them all in the car? You know, just just get them all with one fell swoop. Like, it’s very specific. No, I need to have this one first. Mhmm. And then move on.   After all this happens, Alex realizes that because, Carter has been saved and and Billy is gone, Alex realizes that he is next. So he, goes Claire or Claire, excuse me, takes him, out to her dad’s cabin somewhere, and he foolproofs this cabin, against, death. You know, we see him setting up all these safeties around the cabin. And and that scene, if any scene, I felt like was something that they felt like they had to get in there and it seemed kind of rushed, because it all happened so quickly. You see him safeguarding the house and then immediately you see a sequence of things start. But he notices it too, and he’s able, to to stop it. And so he realizes then that he has, you know, thwarted his own death, and so Clear is next. And and, so he has to try to get to her.   And and we see her immediately, start to get into peril when, there’s a thunderstorm and and lightning. I don’t remember if it strikes a tree or if it strikes the telephone pole, but, a wire goes down. And then of of course, as is always the case, there’s just a whole sequence of things, where she, her life is at risk now too. 

Todd:  Yeah. She ends up trapped in a car, by the end of it, when Billy, I’m sorry, when Alex finally arrives. And, there’s a live wire dancing on the top of her car. And he’s like, no, stay in there because you’re grounded by the tires. I think what he meant was you’re insulated by the tires, but that’s okay. Because you don’t wanna be grounded or you electricity will pass through you. But, anyway, yeah. You’re grounded by the tires.   And then, somebody needs to teach this kid how to deal with a live wire situation. When you’ve got all these downed trees and branches and things around you Yeah. You don’t just run up to the wire, grab a hold of it to get it off. 

Simone:  He tries to, like, hit it with a shovel a few times. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s kind of a half assed attempt Todd, knocking it off with something else before he decides that he’s going to sacrifice his life. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  Because, obviously, if he dies next, then it’s gonna have skipped her. 

Simone:  Yes. And and that sequence is almost comical in that way where he’s like, you’re safe by the tires. Don’t worry. And then, gasoline leaks under the car and the live wire spark starts a fire underneath the car. And then, Your car is going to explode. So you’re not safe anymore, and that’s when he decides to take on, the wire and and and save her. 

Craig:  And he grabs he grabs the wire and he gets thrown, but he’s successful in in getting it off the car. And and, I I I guess since he’s apparently dead, death is like, okay, well, there was that attempt, so The Wire goes dead. And I thought, I didn’t remember, I’ve seen this movie so many times too, but I didn’t remember this one moment where Alex is on the ground, Craig gets down next to him, she sees that his hands are all burnt up, he’s clearly been electrocuted. And then it totally fades to white. And when it fades out of the white, it fades into the, corridor, you know, that ex that extending corridor between the the terminal and the airplane. And I was kinda thinking, like, is this, like, the white light? You know, is is the passage is the passage to the afterlife one of these airplane hallways? Yeah. 

Simone:  Well, they they were talking about that, one of, the scenes on the beach, that that Alex and Claire have this conversation about. Like, do you think they’re still up there in the sky somewhere? I know all of our friends up on the plane. So I think maybe perhaps that might have been a little nod to that conversation they had earlier. 

Todd:  I didn’t even think about that. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s a good catch. 

Todd:  The way I saw that scene was as it was coming out of white, I did feel like, Craig, like you said, like it was the white light and we were going down this passage. But then as it faded in, I thought it looked like a hospital corridor, like he’s being pushed down a gurney. And then as it fades in even more because, you know, you hear the voices, and that’s such a typical shot, you know, in movies of the the slowly fading into the hospital gurney thing. But then, you’re right. It becomes this, this airplane hallway. And I don’t know if that was intentional for you to kinda get that double or triple take, but that’s that’s what happened to me anyway. And I thought it was a great shot. 

Craig:  Yeah. I liked it a lot. And and then it’s a a nice surprise when you see that, the remaining survivors, Clea and, Carter are on a plane and it says 6 months later. And at first, you think it’s gonna be just the 2 of them, and and they talk about how they’re final you know, we’re finally here. We’re finally in Paris after all this time. And then Alex walks into the shot. So you realize that how, you know, somehow he was saved. You know, they got him to a hospital or they did CPR or somehow, he’s back.   And the 3 of them, I guess, you know, to kind of celebrate that they’ve, gotten through this ordeal, have decided to go to Paris together. And we see them at this little, you know, very typically Parisian, outside cafe, where they’ve all got drinks and they’re just kind of reminiscing about, you know, we all got through this. Maybe we were meant to. And and Carter who has been such a a jerk throughout the whole thing is like If you would have told 

Simone:  me 6 months ago that the 3 of 

Craig:  us would be sitting here having a drink. 

Simone:  Yeah. I don’t know. I mean, sometimes it just feels like the 2 of you are the only ones you can really understand. 

Craig:  And this is when, Alex starts telling them that he’s been thinking about it a lot, and he’s worried that he may have overlooked something. And he pulls out, you know, that that diagram that he had before about the order, and, you know, they don’t wanna hear it. You know, it’s 6 months later, it’s over, they don’t wanna keep rehashing it. But he insists, and it’s only in this moment, 6 months later, that he realizes or remembers, oh, wait a minute. In my premonition, I had already switched seats with somebody. But in real life I never switched the seats. So we had the order wrong. And then he starts, you know, again seeing all these clues.   And and again you wonder, is he just being paranoid? You know, it’s 6 months later. You would think that 6 months later something would have happened by now. And I actually kinda think that’s a little bit of a flaw in the storytelling, like why all of a sudden is Death now waiting 6 months 

Simone:  to Yes. 

Craig:  When everything else had happened in a matter of like 2 days. But then we, you know, it makes for a fun and exciting final scene. 

Simone:  Yes. And I think that the series always, or at least some of the movies in the series kind of has that kind of ending gag scene where someone just gets completely reamed. But, Todd, you brought this up earlier when we were watching the movie, and that you’re like, well, how do you know when death is going to strike? I mean, could it be tomorrow? Could it be 10 minutes from now? Could it be 10 years from now? Which I think is kind of a really interesting point that you’re right. That these these freak accidents all of a sudden start happening one after another very shortly after the plane Craig. But now all of a sudden death is just okay with waiting patiently for them to go back to Paris, where it all might, like, kind of began. 

Todd:  Yeah. Right. So is it so the idea behind these movies is pretty much like the first one then. There’s some freak there’s some accent that some people get out of that they shouldn’t have gotten out of and that kinda marks them. Is that kinda how it is? 

Simone:  Yes. 

Todd:  Okay. 

Craig:  Yep. Everyone. Everyone. Yeah. And and in this one, you know, so Alex figures all this out and, he gets up to try to go away and tells the other people to stay away from him. And again, we see this sequence of things happening where, there’s a car accident which causes, like, some kind of, construction accident that that make sends this bar flying and, breaks this enormous, lighted sign, and it starts to swing down into the street where Alex is standing, and you think it’s gonna hit him, and he knows that he’s supposed to be next. But at the very last second, Carter jumps in and and moves him out of the way. And, he’s and, Carter, I think says or or no, Alex says, yeah.   You you did it. You you you know, you saved me. And Carter says, well, if I save you, then who’s next? And we see behind him this, the sign swinging back. And I read somewhere that, you know, it, it, it, it was like a 180, you know, it swung one way, and then it did a 180, which is the flight number, and comes back. And we don’t even see the impact. It cuts to black right before the impact, but we hear it. And I thought that was, you know, sad for Carter, I guess, but, a nice a nice, ending. A fun ending. 

Todd:  Yes. Oh, it’s fantastic. It’s a fun ending to a fun movie. And I guess I’ve forgotten how fun the movie was. Somewhere in my mind, it got jumbled in with, I Know What You Did Last Summer and the other Scream movies. And, again, it really follows that nineties horror movie trope of being really clever and being really high concept and having lots of really good looking white teenagers, in their suburban neighborhoods. You know? But but, honestly, it’s it’s a little better than that. And now that you have compared it to the Saw franchise in a way that you’d watch it subsequent ones just to kind of unpack the puzzles, I could totally get into this.   I think I’m gonna watch the others. 

Simone:  I think I think we should do a movie marathon of the other ones, because they they really are fantastic. And And just like I remember going to go see the other Saw films of like, Oh, what’s going to be the next elaborate trap? What’s Jigsaw’s plot this time? You totally just go to see how these people are gonna bite the dust. You wanna see these, like, what freak accidents are they gonna come up to next? And and they really are, fun. 

Craig:  Well, that’s what I was you know, with with this the subsequent ones, the second one is and they all kind of tie to the first one. The second one, the character of Clear, comes back She’s the only recurring character that I remember. And they make reference to the first one throughout, but really the movies don’t have to be connected. And that’s what I like about the series is that it’s really just kind of an anthology series. You get different characters and different circumstances in every one, and that’s why I’m glad to hear that there may be another one in production and I hope that they continue to make them. You could set one way in the past, you could set one in the future, it can be contemporary, it doesn’t make any difference because the concept works regardless of place or time. And I think that, you know, whoever came up with this idea, which originally I I read that, it this was, it it began as a concept for an episode of The X Files, and just developed into, you know, its own thing. But it it it’s so smart.   Whoever came up with it was so smart because it’s just it’s limitless what you could do with it. 

Todd:  Oh, that’s so true. And what happened to the character what happened to the actors in this movie? I mean, Alex? What was his name? 

Simone:  Devin Thawal. 

Clip:  Well, have I 

Todd:  have I seen him and I just don’t realize? Has he did he do much after this? 

Simone:  Yeah. Actually, in the opening scene, where, Alex is in his room, there’s a movie poster behind him. And I forget the name of the movie poster, but it’s actually another movie that he was in that I think that they were kind of advertising and pushing for the time. But Devin Sawah, and this is just because I loved him so much, He was he was Casper in the nineties movie Casper with Christina Ricci. He was in a movie Wild America, with another nineties love of mine, Jonathan Taylor Thomas. Uh-huh. But he was also in another horror movie called Idle Hands, which is kind of a campy horror film, also starring Seth Green. Oh.   And it’s it’s phenomenal. His hand, is possessed by the devil. It’s hilarious. Yeah. He murders people, or his hand rather, murders people. So, I don’t think these actors, besides Shawn Williams, got really kind of playing on that role in probably every film he’s ever done. I haven’t seen too much of. 

Craig:  Well, Ali Larter Ali Larter who played Clear, she’s done a lot. She was in heroes and, she’s still working. This was one of her early movies. Another one of her, early movies was Drive Me Crazy with Melissa Joan Hart and, you know, she she kinda in earlier in her career, she always kinda played the tough girl. And I guess even later in her career, but she, you know, as as she developed out of her, you know, early twenties into, into, you know, adulthood, she became really kind of this bombshell sexy lady. And, she’s, you know, I still see her popping up in things from time to time. And, but you’re right, you know, I don’t think a lot of them, aside from Sean William Scott, who it seems like his star is kind of fading now a little bit Todd, they didn’t go on to do a whole lot, but, I thought that it was a good cast, you know? It was a nice ensemble cast. Yeah.   They played to stereotypes, quite a bit, but, you know, you you you get invested in the characters, and, it’s it’s it was it’s a fun ride overall. 

Todd:  It really is. And I I gained a lot more appreciation for it the second time around. Alright. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend. We’re on iTunes and in Stitcher. And we also have social media accounts. We’re on Facebook, and, Twitter.   If you like what you, heard, please drop us a comment there. Let us know, movie we should see, and, we’re always looking for suggestions. Until that next time, I’m Todd. 

Craig:  I’m Craig. 

Simone:  And I’m Simone. Thank you for having me. 

Todd:  With two guys, a gal, and a chainsaw.

Fright Night is an earnest horror-comedy from the 80’s that hits all the right notes.

Fright Night (1985)

Episode 48, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd, And I’m Craig. And today’s flick was the 1985 film Fright Night, which if you’re like us and you grew up in the eighties going to video rental stores, there’s absolutely no way you could have missed this movie. I think this is like the poster of choice that was up in the horror rental section. Was that your experience? 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And the the, cover art always stood out. It was great, artwork. I really liked it. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s that creepy woman, kind of in the clouds, but she’s got these giant mouthful of fangs, and it’s over a house. Really intriguing cover, really intriguing thing, but I have to admit, when I was a kid in the eighties, I didn’t I never rented this movie. I never saw it once. 

Craig:  I didn’t either. Isn’t that so weird? I remember the being so drawn to the cover and for some reason unless I’m just forgetting and I did, but I don’t remember seeing it until I was an adult. That’s really kind of bizarre, a bizarre coincidence. 

Todd:  Well, you know what it is for me? I I was never, like, a huge fan of vampire movies. I mean, I like vampire movies, but it wasn’t like the thing I was going to choose, and this, when you pick up the cover and especially when you look at the back, you instantly know, oh, this is gonna be a vampire movie. And I thought, let’s go for some monsters. Let’s go for some ghouls. Let’s go for some ghosts. Let’s go for something a little different, and that’s really one thing this movie is is different, especially for its time, I think. Yeah. It’s a vampire movie, but especially in 1985, I don’t think you’d ever really seen a vampire movie quite like this one because it’s it’s billed as a horror comedy, and yes, there are comedic elements about it.   There are lots of comedic elements about it, but it takes place, in modern day suburbia, but it’s also one of these cases where we know who the vampire is and somebody knows who the vampire is. And the whole problem is, hey, the vampires move next door. What are we gonna do about it? And so, right, you know, you see this kind of trope a lot now where, oh, the the zombie’s next door, the vampires next Todd, it’s become kind of a thing. In fact, a few years after this, the Burbs, really took this idea and ran with it, went totally goofball comedy with it, but also took a different take for it. And and this movie never gets goofball comedy. One thing I think that’s really cool about this movie is that it has a lot of fun with this vampire genre, but it never makes fun of it. It never once has this tongue in cheek attitude about vampires. It’s pretty deadly serious while still managing, to to be funny and to be interesting.   Don’t you think? 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s it’s interesting that you say that I was reading some stuff about it, and I I read that Chris Sarandon who plays the main vampire, Jerry Dandridge in the movie. When he was given the script, he had had a bad experience, in the only other horror movie that he had done up to that point, and he really wasn’t interested in doing horror anymore. But he read the script and, was really intrigued by the story and and exactly what you said. He liked that they were having fun with the genre without making fun of it, and he really liked it and agreed to do it and ended up having a really good experience and ended up working with the writer slash director, again afterwards. 

Todd:  Tom Holland. 

Craig:  Tom Holland. Right. And this was his first, film that he directed. He had written on some films. He had even, he was an actor in some, films before this. But this was his first, stab at directing, and he wrote the script having that in mind that he wanted to direct it. He was ins he wanted to somehow, he just came up with this idea that he wanted to combine a vampire story with the boy who cried wolf story. And he wanted to kind of set it in a realm of quasi reality, which is why he picked the suburbia setting.   And that’s really I hadn’t ever thought of it that way, the the boy who cried wolf aspect of it, but that’s really what it is, because from the very beginning, the the main character, Charlie Brewster played by William Ragsdale, He realizes that the guy who’s moving in next door to his home, his his family home, is a vampire, and and he knows it right away. And he does try to tell other people, but of course, nobody believes him. And it’s an interesting premise. I liked it too. 

Todd:  Well, and I think his character too is something that horror fans can really relate to. Here’s the guy who in the very opening scene, we’re getting a slow sweep through the neighborhood, which apparently is the same, neighborhood’s, backlot that, Something Wicked This Way comes with shot in at the Disney Studios. 

Craig:  I read that. Yeah. I read that. That’s really interesting. You know, it looked familiar, but, you know, I thought, oh, it’s just because it’s, you know, typical suburbia. But I I read that Todd, and that’s, another favorite movie of mine. So it was kind of a neat little bit of trivia. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. It was really neat. Yeah. And and the camera swoops through this neighborhood, and slowly, you hear these these sounds and these noises that at first you’re not sure where they’re coming from, then you realize it’s from a television in this boy’s bedroom. Of course, his bedroom’s on the top floor of the house and and, he’s making out with his girlfriend Amy on the floor while the television is going. And what’s playing on the TV is one of those late night horror movie shows that used to be on when we had public television and we all watched it 

Craig:  Uh-huh. 

Todd:  Which was, where there’s a horror host. And in this case, the horror host is mister Vincent, Peter Vincent, I think. And, right. And his shtick is that he’s a vampire hunter and also apparently has played in these films as well, and as a vampire hunter, as the Van Helsing type character. And I guess that’s really the only role he knows and does. And now, our host, Peter Vincent. 

Clip:  This is Peter Vincent   bringing you Krite Night Theatre.   Charlie, Peter Vincent’s on.   Forget Peter Vincent.   But you love him.   But now What I love? You need more. Real. 

Todd:  And it’s it’s really neat how this movie sets it up where it introduces us right away to that character who later becomes, you wouldn’t guess it, but later be has a very pivotal role in the film and also introduces us to this boy and this girl. And this boy, unlike any other teenage boy I know, seems to be almost more obsessed with, with, I guess, horror you could say, than his own girlfriend at times. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  He’s trying to convince her, you know, to go further, to go all the way. She finally acquiesced, but about that time, he notices something strange happening out the window and sees that they’re carrying a coffin in next Todd, and that, piques his interest, and that sets off this whole chain of events. But what I think is neat about it is that, again, as a horror fan, I immediately started relating to this character just because he’s into horror. Right? And so Yeah. It sets up this kind of likable, relatable guy right up front for the kind of audience that the movie is going for. 

Craig:  Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, it it the horror host that I think of from when we were kids, is Elvira, and I love her. But that’s the the type of thing that this show, Fright Night, that Peter Vincent hosts is. And, apparently, to host this show, he’s reprising a character that he played a long time ago, this vampire hunter character. The character is played by Todd McDowell, who is an excellent and very recognizable actor, but the inspiration the name Peter Vincent is the writer wrote the role with Vincent Price in mind. He wanted Vincent Price to play the role. But Vincent Price at that time was older and his health was starting to fail and he had become a little bit disenchanted, with the horror genre because he felt that he was being typecast in every role, and so he was very reluctant to take any roles, so they couldn’t get him.   And when Roddy McDowell was cast, he decided to take the character a little bit different direction, not the kind of good established actor that Vincent Price was, but instead, he envisioned the character as being more of an actor who was never any good, who just was kind of a a flash in the pan for a moment, and is now, older and is, struggling and is really just trying to cling to his last little bit of fame by doing, these late night shows on public access. And, you know, Vincent Price is amazing, and I can’t imagine how him being in this movie would have changed it. But I think that it would have been very different. And I really like the way Roddy McDowell plays it. He plays it as kind of incompetent. He was inspired by, the Cowardly Lion from The Wizard of Oz and and and based a lot of his performance on that. And he’s, I guess he’s a little bit flat as a character, but Roddy McDowell, the actor, brings so much presence, to the screen that he really makes it a lot of fun. 

Todd:  You know, it would have been really easy for him to go a little goofball with this or for him to come across as anything but warm and genuine. But yet in this film, he never you know, if Vincent Price were in this, he would have overshadowed everybody. He would have just been so distracting and Vincent Price always, even as a villain, plays his characters with a wink. I mean, it’s just kind of a part of his personality, that there’s that sly smirk there that betrays a certain a certain look and a certain feel that would have, as you said, brought something completely different to this movie. What’s What’s really neat about Roddy McDowell playing this is the heart and earnestness behind it, and the fact that you never once you feel like this character is a little pathetic just like he’s in a pathetic situation, but he’s not wallowing around in self pity although every day. You know, you you get the feeling that obviously deep down inside this is depressing for him, but this is a role, in his life that he’s come to terms with, that he’s always going to be kind of this washed up ham actor who, is really not gonna do much else. And he’s I wouldn’t say he’s fine with it, but he’s more or less comfortable in that skin. Yeah.   It it’s it’s just a really great character. And from what I read, Tom Holland said the movie the the script didn’t really come together for him until he came up with this character. And he said once once he came up with this character he’d been mulling over this idea for 10 years, and once he came up with this character Vincent and realized that he gave the movie the heart that it needed, he wrote the script in 3 weeks. 

Craig:  Oh, wow. 

Todd:  Yeah. And it’s worth mentioning, since you’d brought him up earlier, Tom Holland, the director, had also been a little, disappointed by the adaptation of the only horror movie he had written before this, and that’s why he wanted to direct this one so badly. And, just coincidentally, the movie he was disappointed in and the movie that Chris Sarandon was in, and he was 

Clip:  It is. It is crazy. You know, I think that, you know, 

Craig:  It is. It is crazy. You know, I think that I read that, they were pretty they went through a pretty stringent casting process. They wanted to make sure that they got the right person. William Ragsdale, who plays Charlie, he had to go through several callbacks, before he actually got the role. And other up and coming stars had auditioned for the role Todd. Most notably, probably Charlie Sheen. And they just decided that Charlie Sheen, his look was too tough, like he looked too much like a hero, and William Ragsdale looked like somebody who could more believably be find himself in peril.   And then the last person that was cast, if I remember correctly, was, Amanda Beers who plays the role of Amy, the girlfriend. And she’s if if you’re a kid of the eighties like we are, you’ll recognize her right away. She played Marcy Darcy on Married With Children. She was hilarious on that show. And then the other somewhat principal actor, is the character that plays evil Ed. Evil Ed is Charlie’s friend, I guess, even though it seems like they argue quite a lot, and he’s played by Steven Jeffries. I remember, you know, we there’s the iconic cover art for this, movie, but then I read that, for a rerelease, they changed the cover art and put a picture of Evil Ed on the the cover, and I I vaguely remember that. What what I remember, Steven Joffrey’s more from though back then was he was on another, box art for another horror movie called 976 evil. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And I don’t even know if I’ve ever seen that movie, but I vividly remember that cover with with Steven Jeffries in, like, demon makeup on a telephone. And I guess this he had worked, you know, Jeffries had worked, and and, you know, was I don’t wanna say a rising star because he never really rose that far, but he had been working in the industry. And when he got called in to audition, he thought that he would be reading for the Charlie Brewster, part and was disappointed when he found out that, he would be playing the evil Ed character because he couldn’t imagine what they saw in him for that character. I find the evil Ed character in this movie to be one of the most annoying, obnoxious characters ever portrayed on screen. We’re introduced to him pretty early on. You know, Charlie and Amy are making out. Like you said, he gets distracted by what’s going on next door, and she eventually storms out. The next morning, we meet him, I I think, really early on, and and he’s just obnoxious. 

Todd:  Yes. 

Craig:  I I like, I’ve seen this movie once before, but it’s been a really long time ago, and I don’t remember just finding this guy so grating. And I don’t know if it’s it’s the acting choice or if that’s the way that he was meant to come across. And I I kinda think it’s the latter. I think he was supposed to to be that obnoxious, but, oh, man. The guy just drove me nuts. Steven Joffrey’s, like I said, he went on to do, 976 evil, but then his star really dimmed, and he ended up, in gay porn. So that was kinda his his career trajectory. 

Todd:  His calling, apparently. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd:  Well, we do first see him, in the high school, I think, when he’s walking down the hall. This movie, thankfully, only has one of these obligatory we’re walking down the hall in high school scenes and you don’t, it’s unlike all the other movies, you don’t get to meet all these crazy characters. It’s really boils down to these four characters, Charlie, Amy, Evil Ed, which evil is like his nickname, I guess. And there’s really no explanation for that. Jerry Dandridge, who’s the guy next Todd, Mr. Vincent, who’s and then, Jerry Dandridge’s assistant, who familiar assistant, whatever you call it, who comes into play a little later. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  I completely agree with you about Evil Ed, and yet he’s one of the most unique of these obnoxious characters. And Again, that’s another thing that sets the movie apart. There are a lot of these standard eighties tropes in this film, although they seem to be a little more downplayed in this movie than in others, but the one thing you get is the nerdy friend. Except in this case, the nerdy friend isn’t a likable nerdy friend, right? He’s not the guy who’s cute and who’s clever and who, yeah, he’s nerdy, but he’s just inches away from being popular, you know. At least you figure, well, he’s probably popular in his circles because he’s got this natural wit and he has this charm of his own and this comedy that no nerd in my high school ever had, you know. 

Craig:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  Normally they’re they, you know, as though nerds are like a thing. But right? But when you think of of 

Craig:  I I totally count myself in that camp. So Yeah. Exactly. You know, I I when we when we say that, we say it with love. 

Todd:  We do. We do. And and I don’t think either of us were this person, but we definitely had this this hierarchy, if you will. And there was always that kid who was so socially awkward that the more he tried, to be funny, the more awkward and horrible it was. Right? It just everything about him just reeked of there’s something wrong with this guy. And it is exactly how evil Ed comes across. Not his laugh is annoying, the way he talks is annoying, the things he says are annoying. 

Clip:  And why did he tell us he was gonna spring a pop quiz? Well, that’s the point to a pop quiz, Brewster, to surprise you. Thanks, teach. Hey, Amy. Amy. She finally find out what you’re really like? Buzz off. Black evil. Call me anything you want. Only you’re the one failing Craig, not me. 

Todd:  And you just can’t even imagine that he’s his friend. And actually, I can’t say that the movie really paints him as his friend too much more than any than this leech that just kind of hangs out with him. It’s not like Charlie dislikes him. Obviously, he’s the first person he goes to when he suspects that his friend is a vampire, but at the same time you don’t see a lot of scenes of them buddy buddying at at the coffee shop, you know. He’s really only there when he needs him in a sense, which is tends to be how these people get treated, you know. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  It’s interesting. It’s an interesting character. It’s definitely a memorable character and I agree with you a 100%. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. 

Todd:  It’s one of the most annoying guys to ever see on screen. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. He’s probably yeah. I would say that he’s probably one of the more memorable parts of this movie. Like, if you were to strike up a conversation about this movie with somebody who’d seen it, I think that that’s one of the first things that you would think of. So, you know, maybe we have to credit the guy for, at least being memorable in that way. The the story, you know, I I found myself taking all these notes and trying to keep track of the plot, because the the story moves at a quick pace and things keep happening. You know, it it never drags, or at least I didn’t feel like it did. And, you know, it’s it’s an hour and 45 minute movie.   Sometimes when you get up to that and closer to the 2 hour range, you’re sometimes dealing with movies that probably should have been cut a little bit. But this one, it it never gets boring. Things continue to happen. The next morning after the whole make out, problem, Charlie, gets up, and he talks to his mom about, there’s a new guy that moved in next Todd. And the mom says, yeah, I don’t know anything about him except he’s got a live in Carpenter. So my luck, he’s probably gay, which I thought was kind of a a funny and and like, the a joke that I didn’t expect to hear in in 1985. But as as, Charlie goes out on his way to school, he sees this hot blonde lady, going into the house next door, and then or maybe it’s not in the morning, I don’t know, but he sees her going in, and later that night, he hears a scream, and on the news the next morning, he hears that there was a body found, or actually there have been there’s been more than 1 body found, and both of them have been mutilated and decapitated. So the next time he gets home, he goes out, and and kind of is snooping around.   He saw that this coffin was unloaded into the basement, and the basement has outdoor outdoor access. And it looks like he’s gonna try to go down there and check it out, but we see that this other guy, who we find out his name is Billy, he’s indoors painting all the windows black, but he sees Charlie through the window and goes out and kind of warns him to stay away. 

Clip:  Hey, kid. What Todd you doing? Nothing. Oh, yeah? Would just make sure that it stays that way, kid. 

Craig:  Billy is played by Jonathan Todd, who I recognized immediately, and I so I went to IMDB to see what it was I knew him from, and he had lots of credits and things that I recognized, but I didn’t realize for a while that I was looking at his writing credits because that’s what came up right away. I guess he’s more known in Hollywood for writing. Yeah. He was the, he wrote for Ellen DeGeneres’ sitcom back in the day and and guest appeared on that a couple of times. He was the creator apparently of According to Jim, the sitcom with, Jim Belushi. When I finally remembered or finally figured out that I was looking at his writing credentials, I flipped over to his acting credentials, and I I realized that what I recognized him from was House 2, which was always I loved it’s a it’s a really goofy, arguably pretty bad movie, but I loved it when I was a kid, and I recognized him from that. And he plays, like you said, well, what it seemed to be was kind of he was the Renfield to, Dandridge’s Dracula. That’s what it seemed to be.   But there’s also throughout the movie quite a bit of suggestion. You know, Dandridge is is a ladies’ man. He’s constantly seducing women. His victims are women. It turns out that blonde was a prostitute. Charlie, I think just, you know, very soon after this, he sees through his bedroom window. His bedroom window faces Dandridge’s bedroom window, and he sees Dandridge seducing this woman, and and almost biting her. And then they carry a body out, later on.   So he knows that that lady has been killed. So the the vampire is a total ladies’ man, but there’s definitely some homoerotic stuff going on between, him and his manservant Billy. Didn’t you? You had to have caught that. Yeah? 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, later in the movie, it’s almost bald faced when that scene, when he bites the woman, almost gets recreated, except, Dandridge is down on his knees in front of him. And it’s something that as a kid, you know, would fly right by you, but as an adult you pick up on right away and go, Oh, wait a minute, What’s going on there? 

Craig:  Well, yeah. The scene that you’re talking about it, it’s well, I guess, what happens is Billy, knows. You know? And so he tries to tell his mom. Of course, she doesn’t believe. He goes to evil Ed for advice on what he should do because he says, you know, this guy’s a vampire, and he knows that I know, and and Ed gives him all and this is, I I think, a little bit of a flaw in the movie. You know, Charlie is supposed to be this guy who watches these vampire movies every single night, but he has to go to his friend to find out that crosses and garlic and holy water are what you use against vampire. 

Todd:  I know 

Craig:  one would think that somebody who knows that much about vampires would know these very common pieces of lore. And, Ed tells him that he doesn’t have to worry too much because he has he has to be invited in. So as long as he’s not invited in, he should be safe. But when Charlie goes home, his mom calls him down from his room and says, I wanna introduce you to somebody. And she has invited Jerry over for a, for a drink because she’s single, and there’s a hot guy who moved in next door. 

Clip:  What’s she doing here?   I invited him over for a drink.   What?   I invited him over. Why?   What’s your matter, Charlie? Afraid I’d never come over without being invited first. You’re right. You’re quite right. Of course, now that I’ve been made welcome, I’ll probably drop by quite a bit. In fact, anytime I feel like it. With your mother’s kind permission, of course.   Oh, Jerry. Anytime. 

Craig:  And it’s that night that Jerry he does. He comes to the house that night, and he surprises Charlie in his room and and threatens him. He’s throwing him around, but he’s he offers him a deal. He says, forget about me, and I’ll forget about you. Meanwhile, he’s holding him up by his his throat and kind of holding him out the window. And, I guess Charlie’s not in the mood to negotiate, so he grabs a pencil off of his desk and stabs Dandridge through the hand with it, which seems to really pain him. I don’t know if it has to do with the fact that it’s wood or or whatever, but that’s when, Jerry fully vamps out for the first time. And, you know, we get to see him in all his vampire glory.   But, when so he he leaves after that, the vampire. But in just a little bit, after Charlie, you know, tell just tells him, mom, oh, nothing’s going on. I was just having a bad dream or or something like that. He goes back to his room and he gets a phone call, and it’s Jerry. And he says, I just destroyed your car, but that’s nothing compared to what I’m gonna do to you tomorrow night. So we know he’s safe for the night, but he’s coming back. But when he’s having that conversation on the phone, the manservant Billy is fixing or or working on his hand. And like you said, he’s kneeling down right in front of him, in what is a very suggestive fashion and after charlie or after Dandridge is done talking to charlie he pulls down the shade, you know, and you get it’s it’s very suggestive.   I I read that, that the the the the two actors, Chris Sarandon Chris Sarandon and Jonathan Stark had no idea that the director was going for that that subtle thing there with the homoerotic stuff. But when they saw the film, they were like, oh. So so that’s what he was going for. And and it was. You know, the the writer director has said, it it certainly was intentional. 

Todd:  Well and that’s what kept it subtle. You know? They never played directly to it. And so, you know, throughout the movie, it’s it’s really pretty, pretty brilliant actually because it allows the relationship to be just be something that it is Because an actor might try to play into that too much, and then in every scene you get between the 2 of them, you get these furtive looks or these slight touches or things like that where it becomes a Right. Distracting element of the movie. Whereas this, I mean, heck, they’ve had this relationship for presumably 100 of years, and so it’s not an everyday, you know, sort of thing for them. It’s just part of their lives. They’ve got bigger fish to fry dealing with the kid next Todd, and that’s gonna be the focus of their attention, their glances and and, you know, their motivations in every scene. You know, we’ve walked you through all these, these elements, but I just kinda wanna call attention to them a little bit.   Like, from that very beginning, that first scene where he sees the vampire almost bite the girl. He looks out the window and, he he’s a voyeur. You know, he’s gotta put his binoculars on to see it really close, but he sees this man raise his head, and in no uncertain terms, there are fangs in his mouth. He’s gonna come down on the girl, and as he does, he slows down, he stops, and he slowly turns and looks straight at him through the window. Mhmm. Which is something that is terrifying. I mean, you he thinks he’s safe, you know, across the yard in this dark house looking out the window and and this vampire immediately sees him. It sets this movie up from the very beginning.   I think that this kid is in peril and that’s when, when Dandridge slowly pulls down that shade. And then when Charlie goes door as you mentioned earlier and opens up the tries to get into their basement after he’s seen the coffin and Billy comes out and confronts him, Billy’s extremely confrontational. As he walks away, Billy just stares after him, almost like Billy’s trying to pick a fight, you know. Right. And then this later scene that you just that you that you walked through of him, coming over to his house, getting invited in by his mom and having that really tense scene between the 2 of them where he’s clearly playing with him, and then flat out confronts him in this room. He’s so confrontational. This isn’t the vampire who’s gonna slowly play with his guy next door. This isn’t the burbs where you kinda wonder if if if Tom Hanks’ character isn’t a little insane or maybe thinking a little too much about this and reading into things that where he shouldn’t be reading into things.   This is definitely a vampire. This vampire definitely knows that the kid knows from from day 1. And this vampire, not only is he not going to let the kid go, but he’s gonna kill the kid. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  You know, and he’s making that in no uncertain terms and he’s he’s pretty brutal about it. And to me, I it’s just terrifying. We’ve seen movies like this where the person thinks that a person’s a vampire, but it plays out in the slow mysterious, sometimes seductive fashion. You don’t know if that person, if the vampire is going to, you know, try to run him off the tracks. You don’t know if the vampire is gonna try to make him a vampire too. It’s not this real cat and mouse game. It’s like a Tom and Jerry cat and mouse game, you know? 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Todd:  And I think that’s what makes this movie so scary, and that is the counterpoint to what is otherwise kind of a goofy, what could be a goofy premise. That’s what I think makes this movie so deadly serious and works so well. It’s like you said, the pace never lets up and the pace is is is a frightening confrontational, kind of theme. 

Craig:  Yeah. I agree a 100%. You know, I think that it really makes it very suspenseful that that the you know? And and Chris Sarandon plays it, and Billy too, you know, the guy who plays Billy. They play it very much, we know you know. And, you know, there’s there’s no question there. We know you know, and and we’re out to get you. And, Chris Frandon just plays it with such confidence, and he comes across as a pretty intimidating scary guy. And, so, yeah, there’s there’s lots of tension.   And it like you said, like we both mentioned, it it it’s maintained. There’s there’s never any lull, because, Charlie knows that he’s in trouble. So he’s got to really quickly figure out what he’s going to do. He goes to find Peter Vincent. He thinks this guy can help me out. You know, he believes in vampires because Peter Vincent had said something about believing in vampires. And when I was a kid, I didn’t understand how he would just be able to go to some back lot and find this guy. Like, oh, this guy just so happens to do this in your in your hometown.   I didn’t realize that some of those shows, unless they were like Elvira and and, you know, got picked up and syndicated and whatnot, a lot of these guys were just people who either were local and were doing it on public broadcast or, you know, traveled around selling their show to various public broadcast and just moving from city to city. But he goes and he finds his idol, Peter Vincent, and, he asks him for help. And and Peter Vincent, you know, humors him at first. 

Clip:  What? You do want my autograph, don’t you? No. No, sir.   I was curious about what you said last night on TV, you know, about believing in vampires. What about it? Were you serious?   Oh, absolutely. Unfortunately, none of your generation seems to be. What do you mean? I have just been fired because nobody wants to see vampire killers anymore or vampires either. Apparently, all they want are demented madmen running around in ski masks, hacking up young virgins. 

Craig:  But when when Charlie says, well, I believe in vampires. There’s one living next door to me. Will you help me kill him? Obviously, Vincent then, starts to think, wow, this kid is unhinged, and he gets the heck out of there. And then right after that, Amy and Evil Ed show up to Charlie’s room, and he’s got it all decked out with crosses and candles and garlic. And they think he’s Craig, So they go to Peter Vincent, and Amy gives Peter Vincent a $500 savings Todd to get him to play along. And what they’re going to do is and and what they actually do is they call up Dandridge and say, our friend is convinced you’re a vampire. You’re a nut. Can we bring him over to your house and stage this test so that he will see that you’re not a vampire? And they say, you know, we could bring crosses.   And he says, no. I’m a born again Christian. That would be profane to me. Well, what about holy water? And he says, I don’t know about holy water. Peter Vincent says, it’s it’s not really holy water. All you gotta do is drink it. Nothing will happen, and we’ll be on our way. And so, so that’s exactly what they do.   They go over and get, Charlie, and and they all head over, to Dandridge’s house. And it’s it it sets it up for really kind of a a funny scene, this this vampire test, because it it it it really seems like both Dandridge and Billy are having fun playing this game, knowing what Charlie knows and knowing that his friends and family think that he’s crazy. It’s almost like they are enjoying allowing his his friends to discredit him right in front of them. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and you also have mister Vincent who’s slipping right into this comfortable role and, playing it up again for Charlie’s sake. And, you get the sense that he too, is having a little bit of fun with it, You know, this real life vampire hunter role, the only role that he really can play. And that whole scene is just it’s so tense because it’s just so interesting. You have that interesting interplay that you mentioned, and you know that Charlie’s just in deeper trouble after this because his friends aren’t gonna believe him. But you also have that really tense moment where Dandridge gets the vial of water that he’s supposed to drink. 

Clip:  And are you sure that this is, holy water?   Positive. I saw father Scanlon blessed down at Saint Mary’s myself. 

Todd:  And of course, what he means is, are you sure this is tap water? And Mr. Vincent is kind of nodding and smiling back like, Oh yes, it’s holy water. And, and Dandridge is hoping that he’s supposed to take that as in, okay, it’s definitely tap water. And there’s this tense moment where even we wonder, did he somehow get some holy water anyway? And what’s gonna happen when he drinks this? It’s a really cool moment of tension in the movie. And of course he drinks it and nothing happens. And we’re also knowing, oh, great. What’s gonna happen to Charlie and his friends? Because the other element in the scene is that Dandridge is immediately taken with Charlie’s girlfriend, Amy. And you just get this horrible sense that, oh my gosh.   And and the look crosses Charlie’s face Todd. That here in in here in trying to vanquish this vampire, he has dragged his girlfriend into the lion’s den and he has now suddenly put her in peril as well because Dandridge, being ever the debonair and suave guy, goes up to her and captures her eyes. And she’s obviously under that that vampire spell, it seems to be kisses Right. 

Craig:  And His thrall. Oh, yeah. 

Todd:  And Charlie and this is a moment that I kind of missed, at least the first time I saw it, but Charlie is kind of pawing through the house earlier. And there’s a scene earlier we neglected to mention, but it’s not important when he brings the police over, and he’s taking it upon himself to paw through some of the things. And there’s a portrait that has been half unpacked that has a girl that looks oddly familiar. And now we’re getting that same vampire trope, which I’ve seen at least 2 or 3 other vampire movies where, the Oh, yeah. Young, you know, girl reminds him of one of his long lost loves because the resemblance is very uncanny. And that’s what happens to have happened here with Amy, is that she looks an awful lot like a a former lover that he had, that he loved so much that he had a portrait painted of her in the house. So now not only are they leaving here, having not convinced, his friends that, this this vampire next door seemingly, but now Amy is a target for the vampire. And, Charlie is still in as much danger as possible except for 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  But one thing we, yeah, one thing we did fail to mention was, you know, it seemed like they were gonna totally get away with it. But right at the last minute, Peter Vincent pulls out this mirror that he had used, as a prop in one of his vampire movies before. And he’s not even pulling it out as part of the test. You know, it almost just looks like he’s taking a second to look in the mirror. But he happens 

Todd:  Cigarettes in there, I think. Is it also a cigarette? 

Craig:  Got it. Yeah. And as he’s fumbling one of those out, he catches all of the kids in the reflection. And Dandridge is standing right next to him, but he has no reflection. So at that point, Peter Vincent realizes that he is really a vampire, but it’s not like he’s gonna do anything about it. In fact, it just makes him wanna get out of there even more quickly, and and that’s what they do. But not before he drops his mirror, and then, Dandridge finds a little shard of the mirror and realizes, they probably really do know. So now they are all in trouble.   And that that leads up to you know, there’s an interlude where Charlie and Amy and evil Ed are walking home. They’re they’re walking Amy home, and evil wants to cut through this dark alley, and Charlie says, no way. We’ve got a vampire on our tail. Evil Ed still doesn’t believe it. So, you know, to be tough or whatever, he ends up going by himself, and he gets cornered by Dandridge. And there’s actually this really kind of interesting scene where Dandridge, you know, corners them, but says 

Clip:  You don’t have to be afraid of me. I know what it’s like being different. Only they pick on you anymore or beat you up. I’ll see you then. All you have to do is take my hand. Here, Edward. Take my hand. 

Craig:  Then Ed does take his hand. It’s interesting, you know And that happens in these vampire things, a lot of the time. The it’s a seduction, You know, it’s it’s a promise of something, and, so then Ed is is we presume, either dead or is going to be turned. 

Todd:  I think that scene is incredibly moving. I I for 1 and I guess, you know, we talked about the the evil Ed character being this totally, unlikable kind of annoying is probably the better way to put it, kind of guy. Right. But knowing those guys and then knowing what their life must be like and what they go through, he immediately becomes extremely sympathetic, at least to me. Yes. 

Craig:  Oh, absolutely. 

Todd:  Right. And doesn’t that seem just cemented? It’s like, oh my, he has tears in his eyes and it’s just these words. It’s it’s honestly, you don’t even get the sense that it’s the threat that he’s going to die, but it is that promise that, that I can pull you out of this awkwardness, this unlikableness. You will no longer be the downcast, but you will get this control. You will get this power that you may never have in your life that you certainly haven’t felt. And especially as a teenager, you see it in his eyes as he takes his hand that that’s what he wants, and this guy can give it to him. And it’s it’s so sad. I mean, I almost cried at that point.   I honestly, I think for for a short what has to be 40 second scene, so incredibly well written, so incredibly well acted and staged, and I and I just think it sets it up for later. Ed gets even more sympathy from me. One of these things 

Craig:  makes 

Todd:  this movie stand out completely. Oh, my gosh. 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, I agree a 100%. And, yeah, we’ll we’ll get there, because he does turn, and he and he shows back up, later. But you’re absolutely right. I thought that that scene you know, it almost makes me as a viewer feel bad for having judged him so harshly before. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And and, you know, there are those people who are just so obnoxious, but again, it’s not like they’re trying to be obnoxious. They try so hard and fail so hard, that they’re hard to be around. But, yeah, if you think about it from their perspective and how they really are very much alone and that’s really sad, you you definitely get that empathy, in this part, and I so I agree with that a 100%. But I was I I wanted to get into this next scene because I wanted to know what you thought of it This is such an odd scene, where he dandridge He’s kind of chasing the kids, through the streets, but he doesn’t even really have to chase them because he can take other forms. Like, he can fly. He can turn into a bat and fly. We never see him turn into a wolf, but, that’s part of the lore of the vampires here is that they can also turn into wolves. So every time they turn a corner, there he is.   And they he eventually corners them in this, like, restaurant slash nightclub where there’s a great big dance floor. And while Charlie gets on a pay phone, and I think is calling, Peter Vincent to try to get his help. But meanwhile, there’s this interesting seduction scene where Dandridge seduces Amy in the club. What are your what’s your take on that scene? What did you what what do you think? 

Todd:  Well, first the obvious, it’s total eighties. 

Clip:  The Right. 

Todd:  From the music playing in the background Todd what we’ve talked about before, the the look across the room and the back and forth, pulls her into this dance floor, and it’s like they’re the only people there even though they’re completely surrounded by other dancers who are paying them no mind whatsoever. But I feel like that scene is incredibly sexy and it’s very unusual, because it again, it’s this crowded nightclub and he is not dancing with her in the sense that everyone around them is dancing, but dancing with her in this classical sense that that ignores the the style of music completely. You know, it’s it’s a slow kind of dance. She’s really taken by him and he starts putting his hands on her, and then at one point, she seems to get a little bit of control and plays with him a little bit. Right? He puts his hands down and it looks like his hand is going up her skirt a little bit, and then she kind of pushes it aside and and jumps back away, and you think, oh, is is she coming to her senses? Is she running? But it’s really just to turn around and do one of those come hither looks to pull him in, and and so it’s this play it’s this back and forth play that you would expect, 2 people who are very much in love with each other and extremely comfortable with each other to do, yet it’s a seduction where he is presumably in control. The fact that she shows some elements of control at moments in here, I guess, shows that the seduction is complete. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And it cements that, so that maybe we’re not we’re not so surprised that she’s not fighting it more later on. 

Craig:  Well, you know, really, you had mentioned that you had seen other movies like this, and this is classic. I mean, this is right out of Bram Stoker’s Dracula, with, Dracula, believing that, oh, gosh. I don’t know if I’ll be able to think of Harker. Is that the the main guy’s name? 

Todd:  Not Harker. 

Craig:  Anyway, his his, yeah, his fiancee, Mina, Dracula is infatuated with her in the same way that Dandridge is infatuated with Amy because she looks so much like not even looks like. I mean, it is. You know, it’s identical to This Long Lost Love. It pulls directly, from that story, and and it works, and I like that. It feels like a good homage. The movie reminds me of a lot of movies. You know, it’s definitely got shades of Rear Window, in it, you know, where the kid witnesses something of his neighbor or the guy, excuse me, witness I I’m thinking of the weird Shia Labeouf remake, but, but you know that there’s there’s lots of these elements pulled together and, Pretty artfully, I think I like it the the seduction like you said it kind of works as dandridge tries to follow them out He’s stopped by bouncers And this was part that kind of surprised me because he vamps out right in front of this whole club, and everybody sees it. You know? And he fights these huge, bodyguard or bouncers or whatever and, like, throws them across the room and stuff, and people are freaking out, and everybody’s kind of stampeding out.   It surprised me because one would think that he would be trying to keep a low profile. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  I I don’t know. Maybe maybe he moves around all the time. Maybe he only spends a week of time, at a place. I I don’t know. But 

Todd:  Well, you know, I was I actually, believe it or not, watching this with my wife, Bic, who normally doesn’t like these kind of movies. As we watched it, she she made a remark. She said, well, gosh, now everybody’s gonna know who he is. And I thought, it’s a big crowded nightclub. First of all, no one no one or 2 people was gonna chase him out and try to track him down. I don’t know. It almost seems like a a brawl or something like that could happen all the time. And even if you had 20 or 30 people who said, the guy had red eyes, man.   The guy had red eyes. I mean, who’s really gonna believe that? You know, it almost seems like I guess 

Craig:  that’s true. 

Todd:  A very safe place to do it if you’re gonna do it and make a scene, you know, with the lights going on and people and maybe not all in their right minds and a lot of confusion and chaos, that becomes his cover. But as you say, it it does seem a little unusual and I think that again is just part of the relentlessness of this guy. I I mean, if he is gonna vamp out in a nightclub full of people, what’s gonna stop this guy? 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. I I I can see that. Well, and the other thing is, I mean, he’s only been in town for a couple of days, so it’s not like any of those people would recognize him. 

Clip:  Right. 

Craig:  Yeah. He’s not gonna be there. There’s that too. But, anyway, eventually, in the shuffle, he gets Amy again, and and he takes her out. And the next time we see her, Charlie, runs to get Peter Vincent for help. But the next time we see Amy, she wakes up and what we presume is Dandridge’s house in front of this big fireplace and she’s in clothes. She’s in this flowing white dress. And Dandridge is in the room, and he has his shirt open.   And as he approaches her after she’s woken up, she asks some questions like, you know, where am I? Where’s Charlie? He doesn’t really respond. But as he gets to her, he takes his shirt off and sits down in front of her. And again, you just get it appears, you know, vampires have that thrall thing where they can kind of, you know, really seduce, these women into doing whatever they want. And they have this really sensual scene together where they kiss a little bit, I think, and, he’s kind of at one point, it looks like he’s going in to bite her, and she kinda pulls back a little bit. But instead of trying to get away, she reaches around the back and undoes her dress and and lets her top down. We don’t see anything. It’s all from the back. I I heard that the actress was not comfortable with the scene, and, was very uncomfortable having the crew around.   So, she covered her breasts with duct tape. And so we don’t see anything, but, she doesn’t resist. In fact, if anything, she kind of leans in and lets him bite. And we see, she you know, they’re making very sensual noises, and we just see these trails of blood going down her back. And we know that, she’s in trouble. We we skipped a scene where evil Ed visits Peter Vincent, as a a vampire, and he vamps out, and he’s really spooky looking. His his vampire teeth are kind of janky and jut out in all different directions. 

Clip:  Now I used to admire you. You know that? Well, of course, that was before I found out what a fake you were. Peter Vincent, the great vampire killer. Peter 

Craig:  Vincent’s able to overpower him because he gets his hands on a cross and burns a big, cross scar into his head. When Charlie actually goes to Dandridge’s house, Peter Vincent shows up there, and he’s going to help him out. This is where we have our final act. The big showdown is gonna go down in Dandridge’s house. The TV host says, we should go around back. You know, it’s more of an element of surprise. And just as he says that, the front door swings open. And so we they know, we know that Dandridge knows they’re there, and all they can do is go in and and, you know, fight their hardest. 

Todd:  And what a what a great, final fight it is. Again, we’ve been to this house now 3 times, 3 or 4 times, and so we’re familiar with the house, we’re familiar with the scenery and the surroundings. We know that his girlfriend has been bitten, and so she’s up there and she might be, you know, at this point, things seem pretty hopeless. And then you know that this vampire, Dandridge, is pretty relentless, pretty brutal, and is going to be toying with them and playing with them. And then you never know when Billy is gonna pop in. 

Craig:  Billy appears in this part on the staircase when they first come in. You know, they have a little banter with, Dandridge. And Dandridge, you know, they walk into the house, and Dandridge is up at the top of the stairs, and he says 

Clip:  Welcome to flight night. For real. 

Craig:  At some point, Billy pops out and hits Charlie over the head with something and knocks him out. And Peter gets scared and runs over to Charlie’s house, which is right next door, and he’s gonna call the police. But when he gets there, he finds that the, phone cords are cut, and so he’s concerned about, Charlie’s mom. Now we know because she said it early that she had started working the the late shift. So fortunately for her, she was not in the house. But when he goes upstairs, he finds somebody in her bed, and that somebody ends up being Evil Ed, who is even more grotesque than he was before. And that was another thing that I really liked about this movie is that there were different stages of the vampirism. Sometimes they would turn just a little bit.   Sometimes it would be far more dramatic. It didn’t seem sloppy. It seemed intentional, like there were just varying degrees of how much they vamped out, and I liked that. But he’s fully vamped out here, and he threatens Peter Vincent. Peter Vincent runs off, and he trips and falls and breaks this, like, hall table right at this at the ledge, of the stairs. And from around the corner comes running a wolf, which we presume is Evil Ed, who has now turned into wolf form. And he it’s a a really cool shot. You know, I don’t know if they had a I don’t I don’t know how they did it, but, you know, it’s kinda slow motion, the wolf running towards the camera, and then the wolf leaps onto Peter.   But because Peter had broken the table, he picks up, one of the legs and uses it as a stake and impales the wolf and throws it over the ledge where it lands and is clearly mortally wounded. And this is another one of those scenes that I just saw I I was surprised how much it moved me, and I have a feeling this is what you were alluding to earlier. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Vincent comes down the stairs, and the wolf is twitching. And as the wolf is twitching, it’s slowly turning, and it’s turning, kind of into a half wolf, half man creature with some very impressive special effects, I think, practical effects. And then, as he turns slowly back into Evil Ed, Vincent just looks at him, and the look at him starts out as a look of disgust. And then it very slowly becomes a look of pity as he sits and watches evil Ed resurface in this body and change back into his self and then die. And he seems like he gets a few words out. What are those words? What does he say? 

Craig:  I I don’t remember if he said anything, but even like, as he’s transforming, even when he’s still, like, half man wolf, he’s whimpering and and Craig, and he reaches out his hand, to Peter Vincent, almost like help me. And and Peter starts to reach out, and then he withdraws. I I think that he’s a little reluctant because obviously it could be dangerous. But as evil Ed eventually regains completely his human form, you know, he’s still reaching out and he’s Craig. Todd, I just felt so bad for this kid. Yeah, he was a monster, and when he was a monster, he, was very dangerous and, you know, evil or whatever. But when it comes down to it, he was just a kid. And obnoxious as he may have been, he didn’t ask for any of this.   And now here he lay dying, and and just that image of, a naked teenage boy dead on the floor, you know, having been impaled with this leg. It was I I was really sad. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and here he is, you know, he’s he’s been a loner his whole life, and really he’s he’s dying alone. The fact that he reaches out for that one person who’s there that could provide him at least a little bit of comfort, in his last, minute, and Vincent’s reluctant to do that. It just it’s just tragic. And you can see also reflected in Roddy McDowell’s face, I think just because he’s such a good actor, you can see that tragedy reflected Todd he witnesses. He fully understands that he kind of sees the significance of this, and it bothers him as well. You don’t get the sense that he’s as bothered by the fact that I just killed somebody as this is so pathetic, and this is so sad, and, and wow. You know, he’s just taking in the sadness of the scene.   It’s it is so touching. You you know, you just don’t expect that in a movie, and you’re certainly not gonna see it in many horror comedies. Yeah. It bothered me a lot. That scene does. 

Craig:  Yeah. We we cut back from there back into, Dandridge’s house, and he is taking the knocked out Billy, into the room where Amy is. And he drops him there, and he gives a mistake and says, you’re gonna need this by dawn. And and so when Billy turns Amy over, she is a vampire. He’s very upset. Peter comes back over and sneaks upstairs, and he gets, Charlie out, and they’re trying to sneak out when they are confronted by, first, I think, Dandridge again. Yes. They they see Dandridge at the top of the stairs, and, Dandridge just kind of walks away, and they’re not they don’t step.   Don’t make me shoot. Like, he gives this guy a bunch of chances, and, eventually, he shoots him in the head. And we see, after just a very brief period of time, Billy get up behind, behind these guys who have their back to him, and he keeps he starts walking back up the stairs again. I read that, the filmmaker has admitted that, he he kinda borrowed that scene from, Abbott and Casello meet Frankenstein. And I haven’t seen that in so long, but I do remember that, them on the stairs and and Frankenstein coming or Frankenstein’s monster coming up behind them. But eventually, they turn around, and Vincent shoots him several more times, but nothing works. I I think I think it’s Charlie stakes him. And I don’t really know what was going on here, and there’s no explanation for it.   So, you know, that’s fine. You know, I guess we’re just supposed to think that Billy is just some other sort of creature or maybe some different type of vampire. I don’t know. Like, because the staking works. He starts to disintegrate. 1st, it’s slime. Eventually, it turns to dust, and he’s gone. But we know that he’s not the same kind of vampire as Dandridge because he can walk around during the day.   Did you do you have any theories, or is that just gonna be one of those great unexplained mysteries? 

Todd:  I feel like, yeah, he’s some kind of creature, but, yeah, you’re right. I think it’s it’s totally unexplained. I have no theories. Obviously, he can walk around during the day. He can protect him. Obviously, he’s some kind of immortal, and I get the sense that they’ve had this relationship for quite a while. But you’re right. 

Clip:  Mhmm. The 

Todd:  fact that his death is so different, also I think clues you in to he’s something more, but it doesn’t tell you what. But it is and this is borderline cheesy. I almost feel like they were going for a little bit of comedy here with his death because as he stands there and parts of his flesh and things melt away, you get this green goop that comes out and kind of flows over. And it’s so long and protracted that all they do is just stand and stare at him almost in this weird fascination like, when is this guy gonna finish dying? Because because, it’s just so long and and he finally basically falls into nothing until he becomes nothing but a skeleton, which then falls down on the stairs, shatters, the bones roll down, and this skull, almost a chattering skull really, slides up Mhmm. And and it’s all that’s left staring back at them. I that was it was a neat moment in this movie, that had just a hint of, of of comedy to it, even though it was it was obviously also a a bit horrific. 

Craig:  Yeah. I liked it. I thought it was effective. I just didn’t know what was going on, but Yeah. That’s okay. 

Todd:  Yeah. Weird. Very weird. 

Craig:  Well, this really I mean, at this point, Dandridge is kind of fluttering around the outside of the house. Yeah. You get the impression that he’s kind of, flying, and and landing at various points. You see him cross windows. You also hear him from outside in this very deep voice tell Amy, Amy, prove how much you love to me. Kill them both. And so then she’s after them too, and he’s after them. And eventually, somehow, he bursts through.   There’s this big stained glass window at the top, of of his staircase, and he bursts through that. And, Peter Vincent is confronting him there, but really, he’s really just kind of stalling him there because we see from behind him that the sun is coming up. And I thought that was gonna be I thought the sun was gonna come up. He was gonna disintegrate, and everything would be fine. But when he realizes the sun comes up, he turns into this monstrous bat. Like, it it looks like a monster bat. It doesn’t look like a natural bat. And he attacks Peter, and Peter struggles with it, and it bites, Charlie.   But eventually, they’re able to throw it off, and it heads down into the basement where we know the coffin is. And so they head down there. Peter is looking for Dandridge, and Charlie is looking for Amy. And they both find the one they’re looking for. Amy is now fully vamped out. Her hair has grown like 6 inches. Her boobs have gotten bigger. 

Clip:  Mhmm. 

Craig:  And and this is where we first see her with those teeth that that are iconic from the movie cover. And and I just it it’s I read interestingly that, the director always wanted one of the vampires to have that sort of mouth at some time. But when he told the props guy, the props guy said, I don’t have time to do it. We’re in too much of a crunch. But he said, I’ll I’ll tell you what or the makeup guy. I’m not sure. He said, I’ll make something, but I’m gonna have to slop it together really quick. So if I make it, you have to promise that you’ll only show it for a split second.   And he said, okay. That’s fine. And then as it turned out, this these teeth feature so prominently in this last scene, and they used it on the box art. So I guess, the director liked it enough, to use it, and it is really effective. Those 2, Charlie and Amy Tussle, Peter really becomes the hero. He’s he’s fighting with, Dandridge. Eventually, Dandridge kind of corners him. But at that point, Charlie starts throwing things and breaking out the blacked out windows, which keeps Dandridge at bay because he can’t come into the light.   And there’s more struggle, more windows getting broken. Eventually, Dandridge tries to jump back into his coffin, but at the very last second, Peter, closes it. And does he stake him one final time, or is it just because I think it’s just because the light eventually hits him full on. There’s one last blast of light. Yeah. It thrust back, against the wall where he kind of explodes, burns up, for a moment is just a skeleton, and then he’s gone. 

Todd:  And that’s a really neat bit too because, as he burns up and and into a skeleton, but it’s almost a half man, half bat skeleton as though he were in the middle of transforming into his bat, like stage when, when the light hit him or as he’s struggling out of it. And so again, just like the the jaws and the facial features of these different vampires, it’s these aren’t humans with fangs. These are other creatures that can also look human and this movie, like unlike a lot of vampire movies, really hammers that home. The the guys did the special effects on this movie had just gotten off of Ghostbusters. They did all the effects for Ghostbusters and they had really honed things there so that when they came to this movie, they were a little better equipped, a little better skilled, they knew what worked. And apparently, this skeleton of this final scene here, as Dandridge disintegrates and goes away is something that they created for Ghostbusters for the librarian scene, but it was deemed too scary for that PG, movie. And so they had it kind of in their back pocket and they said, hey, this kinda looks like, a vampire slash bat would look. And so they used it in this movie.   And again, one of those instances where it it was clearly kind of an accident, something that was reused from something else, but I think just really worked. It was so much cooler than just having a what looked more like a human skeleton under there sort of sort of disappearing. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Yeah. The effects throughout are really good. I really and it’s and the movie is shot really well, I think. If if I were to criticize anything, I I would say that some of the acting is not that great you know, I I I think that charlie is a likable character but the acting seems a little wet behind the ears every once in a while. And I kind of felt I don’t know. The Amanda Bierce who plays Amy, I like her But I think that I just have such a preconceived notion of her from married with children that it’s difficult for me to Appreciate her in this kind of young sexy role. So maybe that’s just more about my perceptions.   But overall, I think it is really well done. The the very last, you know, the cap, at the end is, and it’s really funny. We we come back. We scan back into Charlie’s room at night, and it’s the same exact, kind of shot from the very beginning. In fact, on the TV screen, you hear whoever’s on the t’s TV screen say, we’re right back where we started from, and we certainly are. You know, it’s a virtually identical scene. They’re kinda making out on the bed. Peter Vincent’s on the TV.   Peter Vincent kind of gives them a little shout out, from the TV. And then, Charlie happens to walk by the window, and he thinks he catches a glimpse of something in the window at Dandridge’s house. But, he looks and he doesn’t see anything, so he goes back to Amy. Meanwhile, the camera pans back over there, and we see these glowing lights, and then we hear evil Ed’s laugh. 

Clip:  Oh, you’re so cool, Brewster. 

Craig:  So there’s maybe some suggestion that he didn’t die after all. And I was reading, I guess this movie is is, you know, has such a cult following that these guys regularly appear on panels at horror conventions and those types of things. And at some point, I think maybe for the 20th anniversary or something, they they held a panel or or maybe it was just an interview. But the director they somebody asked the director, of all of the films that you’ve made, which one would you be most interested in returning to and doing a direct sequel to? And he said fright night. He said he always had this idea in his mind that he would like to re he’d like to bring back the original cast and and continue the story where it’s something like 20 years later, and Charlie is now a single father of 2 teenage boys, and they move back into Charlie’s mother’s house. And the boys start to suspect that there’s something weird going on in the house next door. And as it turns out, it’s evil Ed trying to bring back to life, Dandridge. Of course, that never happened.   There was a there was a sequel, just a few years later. I don’t remember it well, so it must not have been terribly memorable. And then, of course, you know, there were the there’s the remake, with Colin Farrell. Yeah. And there there was a sequel to that, which had nothing to do with the original Fright Night part 2. But the property, you know, has remains in the public eye, and, it’s it’s it’s got a pretty solid fan base. So I have a feeling that people are gonna be watching this for quite a while. 

Todd:  Have you seen the the remake? 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s bad. Aw. Somebody asked the director about it, and he said, you know, he appreciated what they were trying to do, but they took all of the heart and all of the humor out of it. And he said he hated what they did to the character the characters of Evil Ed and the character of, Peter Vincent. They make Peter Vincent a horror magician in the veins of, oh, what’s that really douchey guy with the long black hair? Craig Angel. Yeah. They made him a Criss Angel character, and it was lame.   I mean, the effects are pretty good, and it it’s dark and kinda scary, but it’s it’s nowhere near the quality of the original, I don’t think. 

Todd:  What is it with these horror, like, remakes? So they’re just they almost always suck. 

Craig:  Yeah. You know? Yeah. I there’s there’s not very many that have have been very good. Yeah. It Todd did well, you know, at the box office and and well enough to get a sequel. And again, like I said, it’s it’s it’s held its own, and I think it still stands up. You Todd, there are things that definitely date it, but the cinematography is is good enough that it doesn’t feel like you’re watching something that’s antiquated and and that’s you know, it it still holds up, I think. 

Todd:  Oh, I think if you took the eighties music out of it, you wouldn’t even know when it took place. I mean, I I don’t think it’s dated at all, in that sense, and you could just, you know, release it tomorrow. Chris Saranda does such a fantastic job as a sexy 

Craig:  He does. He’s a great actor. 

Todd:  Yeah. He really is. And you know, as a kid growing up and really only seeing him in Princess Bride, you know, this is a whole other side to him, that’s actually not really that different of a character really. But, yeah, it’s just a not he’s not playing it so goofy here. He’s deadly serious, and I think that’s what really makes this movie work is that, as we said earlier, even though it’s a comedy, it’s deadly serious and never pokes fun at its subject matter. 

Craig:  Right? 

Todd:  Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us on iTunes or Stitcher, 

Clip:  like our Facebook page, and join the conversation over there 

Todd:  on social media. We’d love to hear your future you’d like us to review, please let us know. Until then, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

A good old-fashioned gothic ghost story done right by the master of visuals, Guillermo Del Toro. We loved this movie to death, and we think you will too.

Crimson Peak (2015)

Episode 47, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  And today’s film, we went back modern a little bit in the sense that the film was, released in 2015, by Guillermo del Toro. This is one of his directorial efforts, he’s always pretty good. The name of the movie is Crimson Peak. Now, the movie may be modern, but the setting of the film is not at all modern. It’s kind of your Victorian like your classic Jane Austen era, gothic romance slash, ghost story, wouldn’t you say, Craig? 

Craig:  Absolutely. Couldn’t have described it better myself. 

Todd:  I guess it starts out with a bit of backstory. It starts out with a woman who’s obviously writing, something. Either she’s reminiscing or she is writing this down in a diary or something like that, talking about her mother and about how, she she believes in ghosts. She definitely believes in ghosts because the first time she saw a ghost was after her mother died. And, we get this image of this girl in this very well-to-do girl, I would say, in a big mansion. Mhmm. And, a ghost visits her at night, and it’s a bit creepy and warns her, about Crimson Peak. And the voice over says ominously, like, that warning came to me a little too late or I didn’t understand what it meant until, it was too late.   So instantly, the movie really sets you off with, I thought, a very intriguing kind of premise. Sometimes, a film with the voice over at the beginning is trying to compensate for something, maybe lacking in the storytelling. But in this case, it did a really good job of, getting us into the story, I thought, almost immediately. And I felt like that was necessary, especially if you’re coming to this movie as a horror film because what you really get for the first, I would say, almost 45 minutes of the movie, if not hour and 20 minutes of the movie is more like a Jane Austen novel playing out, which is not a bad thing. Jane Austen’s great. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Is is that is that the I mean, I don’t know, Craig. That was immediately what I thought of when we’re watching this movie as, oh, Jane Austen. We’re we’re watching a little bit of, Pride and Prejudice or sense and sensibility here. 

Craig:  Yeah. Absolutely. Except like you said, it makes it obvious from the very beginning that it’s gonna have more of a gothic feel, and and that’s that’s cool. You know? It’s an interesting time period, and, it it allows for some really, really amazing set pieces and costuming, and, yeah. I I thought that the tone was established very well. You know, you can tell right away when it opens, that we actually open on what is probably going to be a scene from the ending, and that is the case. You know, it’s just a close-up of our main character Edith’s face played by Mia Wasikowski, and she seems a little bit worse for the wear, and she’s, set against a white backdrop, and that’s when she starts telling the story. And then we get that flashback with the ghost.   And this is the ghost of her mother, and, of course, you know, a young girl is going to be frightened, of a ghost, and the ghost is actually quite frightening to look at. This isn’t, you know, a friendly looking ghost. It’s it’s pretty terrifying, but it just gives her a warning. And and then that really kind of sets up what will be kind of pivotal as far as the whole haunting aspect of the the story goes. And and I I felt very much from the beginning, like, I knew what kind of movie this was going to be, and I was excited, because I I actually like, you know, period piece films when they’re done well, and I thought this one was done well. 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. Yeah. This one was done really well, you know. And, again, Guillermo del Toro, he’s really no stranger to these sort of period pieces, Pan’s Labyrinth, obviously. Set back in time, but also in kind of a very exotic place. To us, the past is very exotic, and and it really is a kind of inaccessible time period where there’s all kinds of different proprieties and social protocols and even manners of speaking which are just not part of us and our culture anymore, at least Western culture. And so, he but he does such a good job of putting films in these kinds of settings and just making every frame sing visually. Oh, man.   I felt like, oh, I felt like this movie was just so beautiful to watch. And we’ve said this before about films, but you could just pause it at any moment, and you have just a perfect picture. 

Craig:  Yeah. I mean, it really is stunning, and that’s that’s pretty characteristic of del Toro’s work, at least what I’m familiar with. Some of his bigger budget stuff, I have not really gotten so well, I guess all all of his stuff is big budget, but, like, the blockbuster type movies that he does. Like, I believe he did Pacific Rim, if I’m not mistaken. Yeah. He did. Not not so much my cup of tea, but he he’s an excellent filmmaker, and you you’re absolutely right. It is just visually stunning.   You know, we after the flashback, we jumped to 14 years later, which puts us in 1901 And, we are in Buffalo, New York. And you mentioned, you know, it’s almost like we’re in America, but it’s almost that sense of aristocracy because you’re we’re we’re working or dealing with these very wealthy, characters and they’re in all these extravagant, locations and it’s just stunning to look at. The costumes are beautiful and one of the things that I think, del Toro does so well is, He makes such beautiful use of color, and and you know, just every every detail is is so intricately planned and and you’re absolutely right. You know, it it feels very artful. Every frame, is beautiful in its own right. 

Todd:  Yeah. We’re we’re really dealing with the the upper class here, And Edith’s father is obviously a wealthy businessman. He says he’s self made. He’s one of these guys who’s risen from tapping rubber, I think is what he said, up to which I’m not even sure what that is. Does he mean, like, literally from a rubber tree? Is that what is that what 

Craig:  I guess. I I missed that detail, but I I assume. 

Todd:  And and but he’s into some kind of mining because, he is meeting with a large group of people, his investors, his board, I guess, of his company. And a man, who is from England, comes in. He’s played by Thomas Hiddleston. His name is Thomas Sharp, and he comes with this contraption. He’s obviously making an appeal to the board for some investment in his contraption that he has invented in order to dig deeply into the clay, which he claims is, some of the richest clay in all of England because it makes such good bricks that’s on his family’s estate. Apparently, his clay mines there did very well for their family, but now they’ve fallen into this long patch where the clay has just been, it’s so deep now that they can’t get to it without this special equipment. It was a little bizarre that that whole thing, his equipment there. Obviously, it’s just a device for the story.   The real problem here is that mister Cushing just doesn’t like him. There’s just something about him. Even though he’s polite, even though he’s kind, he sort of deep down inside feels like there’s a scam going on. And so he sends a private investigator off to investigate him. 

Craig:  Yeah. And I think that part of the reason that he doesn’t like him is because he views him as being, just a spoiled member of the aristocracy. He does have some sort of title. I don’t remember what it was. But he he comes from a wealthy family and mister Cushing, very American guy, is all about, you know, building your own success and not just inheriting it from somebody else. And I think that that’s where his initial distaste comes from.   The men at this table, all of us, came up through honest hard work. Well, maybe not all of us. Mister Fersen here is a lawyer, but even he can’t help that. I started as a steel worker, raising buildings before I could own them. My hands, feeling rough. The reflection of who I am. Now you, sir, when I shook your hand, you’ve got the softest hands I’ve ever felt. In America, we bank on effort, not privilege.   That is how we built this country.   Meanwhile, the rest of, wealthy society in, Buffalo seem to be really fascinated with this guy. And in fact, one of the wealthy women is trying to set up her husband with him, but it becomes obvious, very quickly that Todd and Edith feel some attraction or connection to one another, which does not go unnoticed by her father, which makes him further suspicious, and I believe that’s when he hires the investigator. Meanwhile, mr sharp Todd kind of begins a Seduction of sorts with her, and from the very beginning Something seemed a little bit off about him. Tom hittlesen Has a look where he’s very dapper and and well mannered, but there’s also sort of a darkness to him and when he He’s supposed to be attending this party and I think that the purpose of the party really is to introduce him to society and really to set him up with this other wealthy girl who is apparently kind of edith’s nemesis but instead of going to the party stag he stops and invites edith to go as his his date his escort and it becomes apparent then that he is courting her and there’s you know a scene where They dance together and everybody stands around and watches and it’s all very romantic. But also at the party we meet Todd sister Lucille Sharp played by academy award winning actress jessica chastain and again She’s very proper and you know, she’s she’s playing the piano. She’s very talented. But there’s just appears to be something off about her as well. And so I knew right away that something perhaps a little bit shady was going on.   And I I really thought that this movie was incredibly well made. If I had any criticism of it and maybe by the end of the podcast, I’ll have had more than 1. But really the only one I can kind of think of is that I found the movie to be pretty predictable. I kind of felt that I had what was going on figured out very early on. What did you think? 

Todd:  No. You know, I I felt like some of that was by design. I mean, I felt like you were supposed to feel uneasy about them. I feel like that’s what really propelled us through the movie because, other than that, if you’re into this for horror and you’re coming here for some kind of suspense, what you’re really getting is more of just a courtship drama. Again, like I say, in kind of a Jane Austen sense in that, Edith, her character is just really strong willed. She’s one of these, women who is not of her time. She is the woman who doesn’t need a man. She gets she’s trying to be an author.   She’s a writer. She’s writing stories. She’s trying to get this story published. In one of the earlier scenes, she goes to her editor, and he sits down there and he says, well, you need to throw a romance in here. And she says, well, it’s it’s a ghost story. And he’s she she basically says, he’s just saying that because I’m a woman. You you get this sense that she’s up against, she’s trying to make her own way in a man’s world, and she’s not going to, fall for the things that the men around her or the directions the men around her are pushing her or expecting her to go into. And so I feel like that’s a thread throughout, the earlier part of this movie as well.   She falls for this guy. There’s obviously maybe a little bit of a love triangle here because there’s also a doctor. 

Craig:  Alan McMichael is his name, played by Charlie Hunnam of Sons of Anarchy. 

Todd:  That’s right. McMichael, who seems to be interested in her as well. And so there’s kind of these, you know, these requited loves or these this this whole courtship drama I think going on in which culminates in that scene that you’re referring to at the at the at the dance where he, is going to, as entertainment for the party, introduce the group to the European waltz. And he holds up a candle with a flame on it and he says, You know, it’s said that the a properly done waltz is so smooth that when you dance with a candle, the flame will not flicker out. And he but of course, for that, you need the perfect partner. He picks her, you know. All these things are just 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  Are just scenes out of these kind of romance stories, and those are interesting and intriguing in and of themselves. If you come here for a horror film by this point in the movie, you may be a little more disappointed, I think, if you didn’t have that underlying edge of something is something more is not right about this. We’re not just talking about love triangles and and people scheming against each other, but but there is actually something wrong with this couple. So I I actually thought that that kept the movie, it kept that sense of dread that the movie starts with underlying this, and it did a really good job, I think, of mixing the 2. I felt like when I watched this movie, this movie would appeal to my wife quite a bit, and not because she’s a woman, but because she likes these kind of movies. She’s not really into horror or ghosts. Well, she likes the gothic ghost stories, but she does like these, again, these Jane Austen style dramas. And I felt like this had so much of that on its surface that it needed that undercurrent of dread throughout it to point to, to lead us into what really the second half of the movie is all about. 

Craig:  Well and I certainly thought that it was suspenseful and that it does do a good job of this impending sense of dread. I just felt that it was a little bit transparent in the storytelling. When when edith and thomas Todd courting there’s obviously some shady stuff going on with thomas and his sister lucile And you know, we get to see them kind of conspiring and and she at some point, you know says, you picked her we have to get this done something along those lines and he asks, he asks Lucille for her ring. He says, I’m going to need the ring. And she says, the ring is mine. I earned it, and I’m going to want it back. So it just seemed plus the fact that he, Thomas, was trying to do business with her father and he was rejected, It seemed pretty apparent that they were running a scam. And I don’t know if that was intentional or not, but it seemed apparent to me that lucille and thomas were conspiring and that probably that their end game was to have Thomas marry this girl for her connection, and and hopefully kind of try to weasel their way into the family and into the family’s money in that way.   I don’t know. Maybe they weren’t trying to be, maybe they weren’t trying maybe the filmmakers weren’t trying to keep that a mystery. But it it’s I don’t know. And and as we move forward, we find out more about the history of Thomas and Lucille, and we find out more about their motivation. I just I never felt surprised. Like, I always felt like I was a step ahead of it. Like I I knew what was coming. Even things towards the end of the movie or at least the latter half of the movie that I felt were supposed to be shocking reveals, I wasn’t shocked.   Really? I saw them coming a mile away. 

Todd:  You know, I I didn’t see that any of this was intended to be a shocking reveal. I felt like the movie was very deliberately, showing us, you know, layer by layer peeling back the onion, and not really pulling punches about it. So I guess what you’re saying is you wanted a little more of that kind of suspense, not the kind of suspense of, oh, something something shady is going on here, and I could see that they’re scamming her, and I wonder what’s gonna happen to her, but more the suspense of what are they doing. You 

Craig:  Right. You kinda wanted those views. I think that’s kind of and and and it’s not like that. And and that’s okay. You know, if that’s what they were going for, it is still suspenseful. You know, knowing that their intentions are not good, you then know that this girl could potentially be in trouble. And so there’s still the suspense there. You know, what’s going to happen? What are they going to do? What is the end game? And I I still appreciated that.   I enjoyed the movie. Don’t get me wrong. I just I I felt that it was a little transparent in that way. 

Todd:  I mean, it’s like it’s like seeing a person delivered into the lion’s claws, you know. You’re wondering, to me, it wasn’t really about, I what and again, just like you, I I knew exactly that that they were doing bad things. Like, exactly what they were doing, and exactly what their scam was, and exactly what their end game was, I don’t think is is is terribly obvious. But but you’re right, it’s bald on its face that they’re doing these these things to to to the viewer. But to me, then the interesting thing and the suspense comes from, well, what’s gonna happen to this girl? When is she gonna figure it out, and how is she gonna figure it out? Right. Her father gets killed by a mysterious stranger, and at first they don’t even realize that he’s been killed. They think it’s an accident, and as brutal as it is, and and I’ll say that that scene where he’s visited and this is some time has passed, there’s a dinner party, and the private investigator has revisited the father, and he has a document in his hand, and he points to it. And the father looks at it, and this is clearly the smoking gun.   We don’t know what the document is, but we know that it’s showing that Todd is not all that he seems. His father is alarmed and he wants him to break off his relationship with his daughter. And so he pulls him aside, and if he pulls him and his sister aside, he hands them a check, says this is even more generous than it should be, but this is basically his bribe to get them away from them out of the country. Here’s your money, and by the way, I also want you to break my daughter’s heart thoroughly. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And so he does. And this actually is a scene that that surprised me a little bit. Obviously, they’ve been running this scam. You feel like maybe there really is or there really may be something between him and her, or it might just be he’s just that good of a of a scam artist. 

Craig:  Con artist. 

Todd:  Con artist. Yeah. Unless they do share some really touching and nice little scenes. But again, the whole time you’re True. But we do know that this guy’s a con artist, so just how good is he or how much is he falling for his mark? And he goes in and really coldly and without any hesitation, puts her down. Just basically, not only does he stand up and announce to the entire table quite suddenly, that he, is leaving. He and his sister have to go back to England, which causes Edith to storm out of the room. Edith.   He follows Edith. 

Craig:  You’re leaving us. 

Clip:  We must return home immediately and attend to our interests. And with nothing to hold us in America. 

Craig:  I see. 

Clip:  Your novel. I read 

Craig:  the new chapters. I’ll have them delivered in the morning. That’s very good of you. Thank you. Would you still like to know my thoughts? If we must. 

Clip:  It’s absurdly sentimental. The aches that you describe with such earnestness, the pain, the loss, you clearly haven’t lived at all. In fact, you only seem to know what other writers tell you. 

Craig:  That’s enough. You insist on describing the torments of love when you 

Clip:  clearly know nothing about them. 

Craig:  I’m not done yet. 

Clip:  What do you dream of? A kind man, a pure soul to be redeemed, a wounded bird you can nourish. Affection. Affection has no place in love for Edith. I advise you to return to your ghosts and fancies, The sooner, the better. You know precious little of the human heart or love or the pain that comes with it. 

Craig:  You’re nothing but a spoiled child. 

Todd:  The whole time he’s been encouraging her in her writing. He’s been the only person, who’s been encouraging her and telling her her 

Craig:  characters are interesting and her story is interesting. 

Todd:  You know, the look on his face during this is, interesting and her story is interesting. You know, the look on his face during this is like, I did what I have to do. It it, I I don’t even I didn’t I don’t know about you, but I didn’t even see a glimmer of, boy, I really hated doing that, during that scene. Did you? 

Craig:  No. I mean, he yeah. He just turns very cold, on her. And then when she walks away, he kind of stands there pensively. I don’t know. I I it it just seemed like they had been caught, you know, and and he really had no choice because, Edith’s father had had, you know, Thomas asked, does she know? And the father says no, but if but I will tell her if you don’t do what I tell you to do. So it almost seems like they he he has no choice but to go along with this at least at this point. But then the very next morning while the dad is shaving in his I I don’t know.   He called it a club or a lounge or something. He’s attacked very brutally and killed, and and I thought that that scene was incredibly brutal, and that’s something else that, del Toro is kind of known for. It’s just some really very graphic violence. A figure, a dark figure in all black. We don’t see their face. We don’t see any, you know, identifying things about them, but they approach him while he’s near a sink and grab him and smash his head several times into the porcelain sink and really just break. You know, his head is, like, caved in 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Which I thought was kind of humorous that they would even consider for a second that because there was water on the floor, they speculated that he had just slipped and fallen, but no slip and fall would cause that kind of damage. 

Todd:  Yeah. Breaking the floor. 

Craig:  I I also right. I I also thought that it was a little naive of everyone to not even throw any suspicion at Thomas. You know, I I guess that nobody besides the private investigator really knew that there was tension between the 2 of them, But it just I don’t know. 

Todd:  Well, and Thomas But anyway supposedly left the country by now too. So, you know, there’s maybe that aspect, but you’re right. You’re right. It really hinges on nobody realizing that there was tension between them. Otherwise, it is, kind of silly for nobody. Although, you know, it it does introduce this element, which I felt was a little underdeveloped of the doctor, the doctor friend, who, when they’re looking at the Todd. And there’s actually an earlier scene where she’s visiting, the doctor and, she’s looking through his books on his shelf and, he’s an eye doctor, basically. He has all these ophthalmology books, and then he the last one is, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, you know, and he says, well, you know, he was an eye doctor.   And there’s a little bit of, oh, you fancy yourself a detective, and he pulls out these slides that he’s gotten, or he says that these photographs are are on glass, and so they can’t be faked. And they’re pictures of, what are supposed to be ghostly images. So he he clearly has a little bit of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in him, maybe a stand in for that guy who was also, you know, famously interested in the supernatural and believed in that stuff. And so when they go to investigate the body, he wants to kind of dig into the head, and he sees little bits of porcelain in there. He’s clearly there’s like a little bit of suspicion for him Todd, or at least he wants to think Yeah. That there’s some forensic stuff he can do here. And she’s like, oh, cover it up, cover it up, you know, he’s still that’s my dad. And and she kind of freaks out a little bit, which prevents that from going much further.   That element really isn’t explored much, though. I mean, he’s the only one who maybe is a little bit suspicious of what happened, but he’s, I guess, prevented from investigating, although there’s nothing that would have stopped him once she left the room from pursuing his own line of questioning, you know, down this path. And to be fair, he he kind of does later on in the movie. He does track down the investigator. He does figure out that, there was some tension between them, and he I would say maybe it’s just because it’s too slowly, but he’s almost half heartedly following casually, I guess I should say, following this, this little investigation, of the man even though he’s he’s he and, and, Edith, have been married and are out of the country now. 

Craig:  Right. I understand what you’re saying. I guess I would justify that by saying even though he suspects that there’s something shady going on, well, I guess aside from the fact that her father was brutally killed, he he maybe doesn’t think that she’s in any in imminent danger. 

Todd:  Maybe that’s it. 

Craig:  Because with with with the father out of the way, maybe he just thinks, well, he married her for the money, and he’s gonna get the money. And and I would like for her to know that, but not necessarily that she’s in any in any immediate danger but you’re right. I I in that scene I think that they just had to include that to plant the seed that there is somebody Who is looking out for her who does care about her? And as long as it takes because with the death of her father, she is now an orphan. She doesn’t have any family. Fortunately for her, Thomas had stayed to comfort her. And we see that even at her father’s funeral, she is already wearing the ring that Thomas got from his sister. So, that escalated very quickly, and they they are married and then they move immediately to, oh gosh, Cumberland, England, and the name of the estate is Allerdale Hall. And and so we we jump immediately there.   And that you know, I really liked all of the stuff before that, but, oh my gosh, was this setting   cool. 

Todd:  I know right. 

Craig:  They they pull up oh, gosh. They pull up to this enormous manner, you know, just it’s kind of on, like, what looks like the classic English moors, like, not a lot of trees, a lot of flat land. What distinguishes it as the property is that all of the ground is blood red because of this clay. And it’s a very haunting image. The the the the house itself is is very dark, you know, almost, black against the white, skyline. And they, you know, they approach the the house, and they they go inside, and it’s just it’s it’s it’s rundown and dark and decrepit, but it you can tell that at one time it was really just an amazing amazing home, and it’s fallen into disrepair. And he explains to her that the reason is because, you know, they his father blew the family fortune, and they’ve just never been able to recover. And he and his sister have stayed there in an attempt to try to restore their family and their house to its, former glory.   You know, there’s definite hints of, the fall of the house of Usher there. 

Todd:  Yeah. I was just gonna say that. 

Craig:  And and and the house itself, like like I said, just such amazing use of color. They walk into this huge, big, oh, gosh, lobby is the best word that I can 

Todd:  come up with. 

Clip:  Todd do you think? Does it look the part? 

Craig:  It does. Although it’s even colder inside than out. 

Todd:  I know 

Clip:  it’s a disgrace. We try to maintain the house as best we can, but with the cold and the rain, it’s impossible to stop the damp and erosion. And are the mines right below? Well, the wood is rotting, and the house is sinking. 

Todd:  Check your 

Craig:  I couldn’t tell if it was supposed to be, like, paper or parts of the the roof that were falling in. It it’s it was very ethereal and looks almost like ghostly just an amazing, amazing set piece. And and there’s a lot to it, you know. We don’t just get the, the main entrance. We see lots of different rooms, big hallways. There’s a huge cellar in the bottom. And what I read was that they actually erected that entire house, on a sound stage, and every single item in the house was fabricated specifically for this movie. Nothing was recycled, everything was specifically designed and created for the movie, and you can tell how much attention was given to detail, and it is just stunningly beautiful to look at. 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. It’s amazing. And and the house itself is sinking into the, you know, there’s a part in the floor and the at the bottom where she steps on some boards and the clay is squishing up, from between the boards, which which honestly, like, I guess, is it the best clay that’s buried deep? Because there was sure no no difficult way of getting to the clay, that I could see. It was everywhere. That’s the part that confused me a little bit, as well as his contraption that he designed, seemed to dig pretty close to the surface. I just wasn’t real like, I was a little unclear, as to the actual problem that they needed the machine for, and the money for with the mining, because all that clay just seemed to be right there on the surface for the taking. Right. And the machine didn’t seem to dig very deep.   That’s a minor thing. We’re talking about the beauty of the house and the setting, which I completely agree with you. Totally gorgeous, and just plops you right in. You know, that’s the part in which you pull your bowl of popcorn closer because you’re like, here we are. This is gonna be a classic gothic ghost story because the setting is just there. 

Craig:  Right. And it’s And at this point, it was starting to remind me a lot of, The Woman in Black Yes. I believe was the name of the movie we watched with Daniel Radcliffe. And I thought that movie was okay for what it was. This movie, I think, does what that movie was trying to do even better, and the story is much more compelling. Even though I found it to be a little bit predictable, it’s still a much more compelling story, and there’s a lot more interesting stuff going on, but very, very reminiscent of the feel of that movie too. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and even the haunting a little bit. You know, the outsider comes in. This woman is now coming into this old home, that has this past. This has this history, and she has to try to fit into it in some way, You know, and she’s she’s married into this family, but this family, it’s just so sad. It’s just the this this guy and his sister. And so there’s there’s clearly some tension between her and the sister from the beginning. And when you talk about the movie being predictable, I saw this coming a mile away too.   I thought, well, this is definitely not his sister, or at least that was my thought coming in here. There’s there’s something going on. And in my head, I pieced together, you know what? I think those 2 are actually married. And, Yep. Yeah. You you probably did too. I’ve I and I’m not sure if the movie tries to hide it or not, but, No. You’ve seen enough of this sort of thing.   You’re you know, it’s it’s pretty obvious. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. I mean and they they can’t have been trying to be I they they can’t have been trying to hide it because everything is so shady right from the beginning. He walks when they walk in, there’s like a groundskeeper or something, and they say this is, the husband says this is my wife, and the groundskeeper says, I know you’ve been married for some time now. And, keeper says, I know you’ve been married for some time now. And, Edith says, well, what was that supposed to mean? And Thomas is like, I don’t know what he means. How would I know what he means? And then immediately, like, they go in the house, and she immediately sees what appears to be some sort of apparition, which Thomas just tries to blow off. When they find, Lucille, she is you can tell that she’s feigning being nice, and that it’s shady. And then she, you know, Edith asks for keys to the house, which Lucille carries, on a big key ring attached to her dress.   And, Lucille says, you don’t need them. You know, there is parts of this house that are dangerous. Just go to the rooms that are unlocked, and you’ll be okay. You know? It’s tons of shady stuff. And then you can tell without question that, Lucille does not like Edith and Thomas being together. You can tell that there’s jealousy there. You can tell that she’s fishing for information. Like, at one point, she shows Edith this book and asked her if she’d ever heard of, I don’t remember what it’s called, but it’s that thing where if you, twist, the pages of the book, it will reveal an illustration, on the pages.   And she shows her one and it’s got an erotic painting on it. And she says, but this shouldn’t make you comfortable now that you and Thomas have. And, Lou and Edith says, oh, well, he was very respectful of my mourning. And so it’s very obvious that they haven’t consummated their relationship yet. And, Lucille seems very pleased by that. But even the fact that she was fishing for that information, it was awkward, you know? So you know that there is something going on, and and it’s it’s not subtle. Thomas and Lucille have little conversations where it’s obvious that this is a setup. So again, the suspense kind of comes from okay.   Well, what what’s gonna happen now? Another thing that I liked about the movie was that it didn’t It wasn’t as the haunting stuff wasn’t a slow reveal We know that edith can see ghosts and as soon as she gets there she starts seeing them After you know those introductions, I believe it’s it’s the very first night sometime in the night she gets up and sees a a blood red ghost and you know, it’s bumps in the night, but then she you know, she’s seeing these ghosts too, and she continues to see them throughout. And they are scary, and they’re pretty grotesque, But you can’t I’m sorry. You know, if if you haven’t seen the movie and you don’t want any more spoilers at this point, don’t listen. But I suspected from the get go that these ghosts were not the threat to her. If anything, the ghosts were trying to warn her and trying to help her And as it turns out that’s exactly the case the danger that she faces is from, the the brother and sister and then just Throughout the next 45 minutes or whatever We just get little pieces of information that fill in this story and what they are actually doing and what they have done in the past. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and and, again, it it has so many elements. This movie is clearly a love letter to films like this that came before it. I even think back to the low budget, like Roger Corman films. When they first come into the house and he’s showing them around and she first sees the ghost, it disappears into an elevator, which goes up some floors seemingly by itself. And she goes, what’s that? You know, why is the elevator going up? And, again, his his argument is, well, it’s, it’s just always been temperamental, and sometimes it just has a mind of its own. By the way, don’t go below this level. Right.   Don’t ever go below this level. 

Craig:  And he always he always has some explanation for anytime something out of the ordinary happens. You know, it’s it’s the wind. It’s this. You know, there’s there’s all the time these terrible noises throughout the house, and he always has some sort of explanation for it. But we know having witnessed multiple ghosts that there is something supernatural going on I couldn’t tell if if, thomas and lucille were aware of supernatural activity or not. And I kinda came to the conclusion that they were just not aware of it. Was that the sense you got? 

Todd:  Yeah. You’re right. I was just gonna bring that up myself. The fact that, that I think is also another interesting question and mystery in the movie is are they hiding the ghostly activity or are they just not being visited? And I think at the end of the day, they’re probably not being visited. And my explanation for that would be, well, the ghosts aren’t haunting them because they they don’t have anything to warn them about. You know? 

Craig:  The 

Todd:  ghosts are haunting, anyone who comes into the house and falls into their clutches. So that that is is a neat element, I thought. And then, of course, you know, the the parts of the house that are forbidden, you know, that she that the ghost eventually leads her down into, and she sees a mysterious crate down there with initials on it. And, and, there’s a there’s a 

Craig:  A woman’s name. 

Todd:  A woman’s name, yeah, on the lock. And, then when she sees the keys and gets a better look at the key ring, she sees one of the keys has that name on it. So she steals the key so that she can get downstairs, later and unlock that trunk to see what’s inside. I mean, it just unfold. It was just the kind of movie I wanted to see. You know, you just these Mhmm. Films don’t come along that much anymore. And if it does come along, they’re usually kinda low budget and maybe not as well done to have this fantastic director pay so much attention to the visuals.   This is like when those movies were popular and could still really scare an audience, this is what they must have been like. You know, they must have been this impressive, they must have been this scary, they must have been this visually arresting. And so I really feel like this movie is part and parcel, 100% an update of those classic films. And in a sense, that I think is why it’s predictable. But again, as I think you and I are unpacking it, we’re realizing, well, it’s it’s it’s not meant to be unpredictable, it’s just meant to be one of those kind of films, and it still does have its mysteries in there. And and we’re gonna spoil it again for you, but for what I did not see, coming was the fact that they actually were brother and sister. 

Craig:  Oh, I saw it coming on my way. 

Todd:  You did. So you saw incest here. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. I totally did. It it’s that idea of incest or the suggestion of incest is not uncommon in gothic literature. And so I I thought, obviously, this woman is is jealous that she has an intimate relationship with, with with Thomas. I’m talking about the sister lucille and I I thought I I think that they’re brother and sister and that they are having An affair that they are a couple. Again, you know, they’re It’s a little bit reminiscent of the fall of the house of usher There’s a little bit of suggestion of that in that story. Although it’s never, really played out. I wasn’t surprised by it at all.   Plus there were, you know, there were hints all along the way like lucille tells edith at one point that she and her brother Edith says I can just imagine you all playing in this house when it was beautiful when you were kids. And she said, no. We were never allowed here. We were always confined to the to the nursery 

Todd:  in the 

Craig:  attic. And then that’s where you get, you know, some shades of, like, flowers in the attic where you take 2 young people and you confine them together in a small space and they’re the only company one another has, you’re asking for trouble. Eventually they’re eventually they’re gonna hit adolescence and they’re gonna turn to one another. And especially because Lucille, we find out later, is unhinged. She’s she’s Craig. And and she’s older. She was older than her brother, and so I think that she was able to kind of seduce him and has been able to continue seduce him into doing these things. Initially, I just thought that they were equally in on it together, and to an extent, I think that they were.   But I think that del Toro tried towards the end of the movie to make Thomas a little bit more sympathetic and that he realizes that he really has come to fall for Edith, And he doesn’t want to continue the life that he and Lucille have been living. He doesn’t want to sever their ties entirely. You know, at some point, he go well, we find out, Luz, Edith is putting things together. You know, the ghosts leading her to things. She finds she’s getting sick. She finds this recording that this other woman had made, and she finds pictures that show that Thomas has been married several times to several different women. There was even a child, in one of the photographs with one of the women, And the ghost, leads her to these recordings where, she says, they’re just they’re just after my money. They’re killing me, they’re poisoning the tea, which totally makes sense because now Edith is getting sick too.   Meanwhile, back in America, doctor Michael is McMichael is putting all this together too. So we we we figure out that they have been in the business of doing this for a while. He has gone through several wealthy wives. They get them to sign over their inheritance, and then they off them, in one way or another. So we we figure out, that that is what’s going on and as does Edith, and then it becomes, is she gonna get away with it? Or are they going to get away with it? Is is is she gonna fall to the same fate that these other women did, or is she gonna make it? And it seems like, no, she’s not. You know, they’re so removed from any other people. And at this point, the snow has come in, and they’re completely snowed in. And the ghost, finally leads, Edith into a room where she finds Thomas and Lucille engaged in some sort of sexual activity.   And and that’s where everything’s out in the open, you know, and and Lucille even says that. You this is who we are, and this is why you’re here. And she rips the ring violently off of her finger and puts it onto her own, And, she’s she’s advancing there on one of the upper levels of the staircase on a balcony, And Thomas starts shouting, don’t do it. Don’t do anything. There’s somebody at the door. But Lucille is in a rage, and she pushes Edith off this big balcony, and she hits on the way down another one of the terraces and then lands right on the stone floor. That was the only thing that I didn’t see coming because I thought, oh, she’s surely dead. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  There’s no way anybody could survive that   fall. And so when she woke up and and, you know, the the the point of view that we have is her eyes opening up, and she sees there her friend, doctor McMichael, who has come to try to rescue her from this. I was a little bit I I rolled my eyes a little bit. You know? I thought there’s no way   she could have survived that. There’s just no way.   And in a couple of in a couple of scenes, she’s getting up and running around. And and there’s just absolutely no way that would happen. But suspension of disbelief, you know, you just go with it. 

Todd:  Yeah. You’re right. I felt the same way. I don’t know if maybe hitting that balcony on the way down somehow broke her fall enough or slowed her down enough that we’re supposed to believe. I thought it would have just done more damage personally. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  But, yeah, it is pretty convenient too that doctor McMichael can come in, and they made such a big deal about being snowed in that they really just glossed over the fact that, well, he was able to get there. You know, you you you felt like they were setting this up, that it’s just gonna be the 3 of them, you know, until this is done because, it’s impassable. You know, the snow is just too great and all that, but he’s able to come in and and there’s really no big deal made of it. And he does show up. He tries to get her out, and, there’s they’re just basically big action scene from here on out, where there’s fighting amongst them and, then fighting between the brother and the sister. 

Craig:  It’s it’s it’s I don’t know. You know? Like, they like, we’re dissecting it now, and I’m thinking there really wasn’t even a whole lot of point for him to show up other than to allow him to be the white knight because he doesn’t really do anything He tries to get her out, but he’s then stabbed by Lucille And, Lucille tells Thomas to finish the doctor off, and and, Thomas goes to him in the doorway and says 

Clip:  If I don’t do it, she will. 

Todd:  But listen to me. 

Clip:  You’re a doctor. Shut me where? 

Craig:  And I   didn’t know if he was asking I didn’t know if he was asking, tell me where to stab you so that it will be quick, or if he was saying, tell me where to stab you so that it won’t be fatal. And it turns out that it’s the latter. He he’s you know, this is where, you know, it seems like he doesn’t want any further carnage. Enough is enough. It it was revealed, the doctor, he got the same information from the detective that the father had gotten. And as it turns out, their mother had died under mysterious circumstances too, by a blunt, injury to the head, and the doctor has put it together that because Thomas was 12 and Lucille was 14 that it was most likely Lucille who did it. And after that, Lucille was sent off somewhere. He assumes when it’s silent, which turns out to be true.   So he knows what’s going on, and now everybody knows what’s going on. But as it turns out, Thomas did not deliver a fatal blow. Instead, he takes the doctor down to the cellar and says, I will get her here to you, and you guys can escape together, but you have to let me take care of it on my own. And that’s when he goes upstairs where lucille is trying to force Edith to sign her name to this document that would release the rest of her estate to to Todd. And then he knows thomas knows that as soon as Edith signs that that she’s going to be killed. And then we get the final bit of the story, and it’s it’s delivered very well by Jessica Chastain. And she talks about how The baby in the photograph was not the other woman’s baby. She said that she had been successful in keeping all of the other wives from ever consummating their relationship with her brother but that the baby had in fact been hers and she said that it had been born wrong and they should have just let it die at birth.   But this other woman Who is apparently thomas’s wife at the time said that she could save the baby? And so they tried to keep it for a while, but eventually they, it appears they killed both that woman and the child because we see both of those ghosts there. And then, you know, we’re we’re getting very quickly to the end. I don’t remember oh, how does it happen that, Edith is oh, I remember she she signs the paper and when luciel takes the paper she kind of turns around to inspect it and Edith, stabs her in the neck with the her fountain pen that she had been writing with and then Edith runs towards the elevator and meets Tom there and Tom has an interesting proposal for her. So what Tom suggests he says She says you lied to me. You said you loved me and he says I do love you He says I know that you don’t trust me But if you’ll wait for me this one last time I’ll leave with you He says you can leave if you want to, but if you wait for me, I’ll come with you. And he goes to, talk to his sister and, Edith does wait, which I thought was really stupid. I don’t know why she would wait. But Tom goes in to talk to Lucille, and they have a really interesting, conversation where she says, you promised you wouldn’t ever fall in love with any of them.   And he says, I know I promised, but it happened. And he says, let’s go away from here. We can start a new life. We won’t have to be tied to this place. We can be free and we can all be together. Yeah And it appears that lucille is kind of getting on board with this leaving the house behind until he says we can all be together At which point, she again flies into a murderous Craig, and she has a knife, and she stabs him twice in the chest and once in the face, like, right into or underneath his cheekbone. 

Todd:  Which was a little unrealistic. I mean, I don’t think he she could’ve gotten through his cheekbone there. That was distracting for me, I think. 

Craig:  I wondered the same thing. I thought maybe if she just got in right underneath it, but then when he goes to pull it out, it really has a lot of resistance and that so it must have been the suggestion that it went through his bone. But that was the fatal blow. He pulls it out and then he dies. And so then Lucille goes on the hunt for, for Edith, and that is when the final showdown takes place. 

Todd:  That’s right. 

Craig:  They end up in the cellar where, Edith is is hiding with the doctor, but Lucille finds her down there and and lifts up one of the floor stones and says, before they sent me off to that asylum, I I hid a souvenir and she pulls out this enormous meat cleaver that she had used, to kill her mother And so she starts chasing lucille around with it, and Lucille climbs up the excavating, machine out into the snow, and that’s when I realized, oh, this is it. This is where we saw her at the very beginning. And again, it’s, you know, this the snow, it’s almost like a fog. Like, it’s it’s so heavy that you can’t really see the things that are going on, and you’ll just see Lucille run by in the background, quickly, and she’s able to kind of use the snow as as cover to make these quick attacks at Lucille, or at Edith, excuse me. And they go back and forth until eventually Lucille says   I won’t stop till you kill me or I kill you. 

Todd:  Help me. 

Craig:  There’s no one here to help you. Yes, there is.   Look at him turn around And there is the ghost of thomas which obviously distracts her and gives, She turns back around and says I’m not gonna Todd. I’m gonna kill you unless you kill me, At which point, Edith, strikes her a blow with the shovel first in the face and then directly down on her head clearly breaking her neck. And that was my favorite line in the movie when, Edith says, I heard you the first time.   I just thought it was such an interesting little bit   of humor in a movie that has had absolutely really no humor throughout, but it was also just kinda one of those that yeah. Yeah. Like, you got her, and I appreciated that. 

Todd:  It was really a nice touch, I think, at the end, you know, to see the ghost revisit The the ghostly, apparitions come back into play, revisit at the end, and, you do get that, sort of tragic romance angle here too of, of Todd, revisiting and and helping out in a way his, his lost love. I don’t know. It just it’s it’s so many different layers here of and I think they work. I feel like the movie really works, and I think you do too. It’s just, it’s just such a nice, classic, Again, classic films, you feel like you’ve seen it before, but just in such a good way. Like, I like these kind of movies. I love these kind of movies. And to see a modern version of it that still retains all of the classic elements that make these movies so enjoyable for me.   It just fires on all cylinders, for me anyway. I just I just I loved every single bit of it. And when I was done with it, I was like, man, I’m going to take this film. I’m going to cut out the little what little gory parts there are, and my wife and I are gonna sit down and watch this because she’s gonna she’s gonna go crazy over it because she loves these kind of movies too. 

Craig:  It it’s a really, really good movie, and you’re absolutely right. It’s such a nice throwback, you know, even to, like, the house on haunted hill or the haunting and those types of films. I just feel like he knew what that kind of movie should be if it was done right, and he did it right. Yeah. It’s just it’s just really, really well executed. And and you’re del Toro is a good He he has a talent for kind of mixing genres It doesn’t really feel like a horror movie. Yes. It’s suspenseful.   Yes. It’s scary in parts but it it it really feels more like a period drama. And that was something that was interesting. You know, in the beginning when she was talking about her book and she was talking to that condescending editor, he said, oh, it’s a ghost story. And and he kind of trivialized that, and she said, no, it’s just a story, and ghosts happen to figure into it. But the ghosts are really more of a metaphor just for the past. And then he told her that she should throw in a love story, which she eventually did with some success. And that ends up being what this movie was.   Yep. It’s a ghost story, but really, it’s it’s more of a drama where the ghosts play a particular role, and they do represent the past. And she has this monologue, a voice over monologue at the end where she talks about sometimes things linger, sometimes it’s because of a strong feeling like passion or or Craig. Sometimes it’s, After the result of some terrible violence or or a violent death but she says the ones that are that stick around or are imprinted in certain places because of a certain feeling of passion or revenge Those never leave and the final shot that we get is of a ghostly Lucille at her piano obviously still in the manner on crimson peak and you get the the feeling that she will probably remain there forever, and that maybe That was what she wanted all along because she and her brother will now be there together forever, I guess. 

Todd:  Yeah. It just it wraps up so well. It wraps up 

Craig:  so well. It does. 

Todd:  Well, thank you for listening to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please share this with a friend. We’re on Itunes and Stitcher. You can also find our Facebook account. Please check us out there. Leave us a comment. Let us know what you think, and suggest some films for us to do, in the future. Until then, I’m Todd 

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

This low-budget drive-in hit spawned two bigger budget sequels. It occupies a certain place in horror history, and is surprisingly compelling despite its low production value. Find out why by listening to this week’s episode.

Basket Case (1982)

Episode 46, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys in a chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And I’m Craig. 

Todd:  And Todd, we went back to 1982 for the Frank Hennenlotter film Basket Case. This is one strange movie. Don’t you think, Craig? 

Craig:  It is. It’s so weird. I had seen it one time before and, I remembered, you know, thinking how bizarre it was. But I was excited to go back and watch it again. And I don’t know what it is about this movie. In many ways, it’s pretty darn bad. But in a lot of ways, it’s really compelling Todd, and I I can’t quite put my finger quite on why. 

Todd:  Well, it’s kind of a unique concept, you know, at least at the time. I think there was another film that came out a little before this called It Lives, back in the seventies, about a kid who was born, who was kind of this rabid creature and small, but could attack people. This isn’t quite the same thing, but the idea that you have this Siamese twins that are separated at birth, and this guy’s carrying around his his twin in a basket, and, his twin, of course, is deformed and kills people. It’s just a quirky idea for a movie in the first place, and, so the subject matter, I think, lends some of that to it. But I think the other part of this movie is just that it’s it has a lot of heart. This is somebody’s first movie back in the seventies when, you needed at least a little bit of money and a little bit of know how, because you were shooting on film. So, it couldn’t be, you know, you and your friends in your mom’s basement with a video camera, but take this, transport it to the seventies, give that kid a 16 millimeter camera, somebody who knows a little bit about lighting, and some folks who are adults who are willing to act, and you wouldn’t get something too far removed from this movie. 

Craig:  Yeah. You know, it I don’t know. Like you said, you mentioned that other movie, It Lives. And I I I guess I read that, the writer and director of this movie was inspired by those movies. And you can see a little bit, of connection and similarity really just kind of in the monster. But beyond that, the story, you know, it touts itself as a horror comedy. And I don’t know, the comedy is kind of subtle. And and really by the end, I was feeling that it was kind of tragic.   Like I was surprised by the way that it made me feel. I I didn’t expect it to make me feel anything. And at the end, I was like, man, this is this is kind of a bummer. 

Todd:  Yeah. You know, I think the comedy is, to be frank, kind of unintentional, and it seems to me that billing it as a horror comedy, which is what they do, is an after the fact sort of, you know, we put this movie together, we saw what we had, and we realized some of it’s pretty goofy. And not because we wrote it to be goofy, but because some of the acting is goofy and some of the situations are a little silly. I just am pretty convinced that he meant this to be a straight out horror film, and once he put it together, figured he could salvage it by calling it a horror comedy. 

Craig:  Well, it’s interesting that you say that because, when it was initially released the distributor cut out a lot of the gore like almost all of the gore to really try to, appeal to those who were looking for the comedy side of it. And I don’t know. It would be interesting to see that cut, you know, that’s not eventually they restored, all the gore and and called it, you know, the uncut edition or whatever. And I assume that’s what we saw because, there was quite a bit of practical effect gore. So, yeah. I don’t know. It does kinda seem unintentional. All of the actors in this movie, I looked up, on IMDB.   The main guy who got his big break in this movie went on to do 2 sequels. He he reprises his role in the 2 sequels, which again, this is such an unlikely movie to even get a sequel. But, and he’s done I think he’s got, like, 10 credits. The young lady who plays, the love interest, Sharon, her name is Susan Smith, and she has exactly one, IMDB listing for this movie. And that’s, I mean, if you go to the IMDB page, like, none of them have headshots, none of the cast. So it had to have been just, you know, kind of a ragtag group of people who got together and and put this together. And for being that inexperienced, it’s pretty darn good. I don’t think I could make a movie of this quality.   You probably could. But, you know, it shows the acting is not great. It’s very over the top in some parts. But if however it works out, somehow it just comes together and it really just seems like they succeeded in making the type of movie that they wanted to make. And it’s weird and different and bizarre and, I I I don’t even know if I can say that I like it, but I’m just kind of fascinated by it. It’s it’s really interesting. 

Todd:  Well, I think where it succeeds in that respect is that it really creates a good sense of place. It has a feel of its own, and you can tell it was filmed on location. It’s filmed in New York, and the whole movie just feels very gritty. It feels like you are in, the everyday man kind of slummy side of New York, especially back in the early eighties, because that’s where it was shot and it doesn’t really pretend to be anything else. And so you’re getting very claustrophobic shots in these hotels that are dingy and dirty and gross. In the bedroom, in the rooms of these hotels is where the action is. Even the doctor’s office it’s clearly intentionally, and maybe this is supposed to be funny, but you know, the doctor’s sitting at a desk that looks like it’s in some maintenance closet. He’s got rusted out pipes behind him and things like that.   And so maybe that was meant to be funny. There’s a part of me that thinks, well, maybe that was really the only room they had available, so that’s the room they used. I mean, I was 

Craig:  I think that’s what it is. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. But no, I totally I know what you’re saying exactly. It does have a really it’s a really interesting snapshot of New York City in the late seventies, early eighties. I mean, these days, Times Square is this big tourist attraction. It’s all glitzy and you know, there’s the the big jumbotrons and and all the signs for the Broadway shows and, you know, touristy restaurants and stuff. But this is just kind of a reminder that it wasn’t always like that. It used to be really kind of sleazy and dirty and and gritty like you said and gross. And, that’s where it opens up with our our main character, Dwayne walking down the street in Times Square just holding this basket and, he’s being approached by drug dealers and hookers and you know, there’s like porn shops and, stuff all around and it’s, you know, that’s not the Times Square that I think of when I think of Times Square and I, it’s kind of an interesting reminder.   Oh, yeah. It really did used to be like that. And you talked about like the interior shots. I think you’re right. It was just a matter of them using whatever they could get. The the hotel is supposedly in Times Square, Square but it wasn’t really located there. And all of the interior shots like, the lobby, it it looks I mean, it looks very authentic. It looks like a very small walk in lobby, but really they just filmed that in a service elevator.   And all of the interior rooms or a lot of the interior rooms and hallways were just filmed in friends’ houses, because they had a really limited budget. They only had like what was like a 35,000, yeah, $35,000 budget, which as far as filmmaking goes, is is nothing really. 

Todd:  Yeah. Early on in the film when he whips out a wad of bills to pay for the hotel, which is kind of funny in and of itself. He The hotel room’s $20, but he whips out this wad of bills and very, quickly rifles through tens, hundreds and fifties and things just to pay for 20. I think the director at one point had said that that wad of bills represented the film’s entire budget. 

Craig:  I believe it. Yeah. I believe it. And you can tell. I mean, you can tell that it’s a low budget movie, but they did really well with what they had. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And they did some really interesting stuff Todd, which we’ll, you know, we’ll get to with effects and whatnot. But I I have to give them props for for making, you know, making do with what they had. 

Todd:  It does force a certain aesthetic, and I think that’s probably what saves the movie. The the shots are very close. Many of them are very close in, and you can tell, for example, especially when he goes to visit the doctor later, when he is talking to the receptionist through this glass, kind of the sliding glass window that you tend to see in a receptionist’s office. I mean, her office behind her is so minuscule that it looks like, I don’t know, like a DJ studio or something, repurposed. And you can tell they’re Craig it so close because they don’t wanna show you the rest of the room, because it’s probably doesn’t the rest of them probably doesn’t look like a doctor’s office at all. And when it Right. The other shot, you know, in the other direction where he’s sitting down and waiting, there’s a big bulletin board behind him with some things posted to it that look like they might be in a doctor’s office, but that’s the only indication that you get that he’s in a waiting room. There are no other cast.   There’s not even a potted plant there or a table full of magazines or anything, any of the furniture that you’d expect in a doctor’s office. And it’s just so tight on him that you just know, and this is true in almost every location, that they’re being very deliberately tight. And not because they’re going for a certain aesthetic, but because they’re trying to hide the fact that where they’re filming, is not where what it really is supposed to be or that these are sets, you know. And again, it just forces a certain aesthetic. Obviously, I don’t think it was intentional, but it does work in the movie’s favor at the end of the day. 

Craig:  I think so too. You know, those those little things that you were pointing out, I almost didn’t even notice, because I don’t know, there is something that seemed legitimate about it. I guess, I don’t know if that’s you know, just the tone of the film or you know, how they established through those shots, those exterior shots of Times Square and stuff. You know, we I expected the movie to be gritty and and dark, and and that’s what it was. Whether it was by necessity or otherwise, like you said, I I think that it ended up being in its favor. 

Todd:  You know what it reminded me of a little bit Todd? Pink Flamingos. Have you ever seen that, the John Waters movie? 

Craig:  No. I’ve avoided seeing that. 

Todd:  Yeah. Well, you might not wanna see it. But, you know, it’s a very divisive movie and I can’t say it’s a fantastic movie either, but it feels a lot like this. Of course, that was shot in Baltimore, I think, and and but it it has a very deliberately gritty feel to it. Obviously, it’s opened up a little bit more, but again, it’s shot on film, it’s shot with a low budget, very little lighting, clearly with people that are on their first project acting wise, cinematography wise, lighting wise, even script wise, the way things are staged can be utterly boring at times just because it’s 1 can’t, you know, the camera set up in the corner of the room and you see the whole thing play out as a, you know, the whole scene play out as a play, you know, right in front of you. Now, this movie doesn’t quite go that far. It does have, you know, the shots back and forth and quicker cuts, but again, that’s that’s really because if they set the camera up in the corner of the room, you’d probably see a lot of stuff they didn’t want you to see. The other thing that was a little distracting about this movie was the acting.   I don’t feel like it’s very competently acted. It’s not the worst acting I’ve seen. It’s definitely pretty typical for this kind of movie, so it’s not uber distracting, but there are times when it’s just so unnatural that it kind of clashes with that authentic atmosphere that we were just talking about. 

Craig:  Yeah. I definitely can see what you say. Like I said, I have a feeling that the vast majority of these people were not actors. You know, I I think that these were just people that were pulled in for a job. And, it kind of comes across that way. I don’t but that being said, the the main character, and I don’t remember, he was played by Kevin Van Henterick, something like that. Mhmm. Anyway, Dwayne, he’s this younger looking guy probably in his twenties, I would guess.   He’s got, you know, this big curly eighties hairdo. And his acting is pretty bad, like, it’s pretty melodramatic and over the top most of the time. And yet somehow the character is endearing. I don’t know if it’s just, you know, this guy’s he’s got, you know, kind of these puppy dog eyes, and, he’s got kind of a soft demeanor. So maybe that has something to do with it. But, I I was I liked him as a character, and I was pulling from as a character, and I was pulling from as an actor. Because as we mentioned, the whole the whole premise is that these conjoined twins, one of whom is normal looking and the other who is monstrous, were their mother died in childbirth. Their father was upset and angry about that and blamed it basically on, the deformed child.   You know, he wouldn’t even claim it as his child. He just thought it was a monster. And so in the dead of night, he brings in these, you know, kind of, backwoods I guess, surgeons to separate them and, it’s against their will. And that scene was actually really pretty traumatic and scary and sad. It doesn’t come until later in the movie. We see it in a flashback. We kind of have been able to figure out what’s going on, you know, what the backstory is. We do see it in flashback.   And the prosthetic that is the Belial is the name of the, deformed twin, it’s it’s campy looking, you know, it doesn’t look like real flesh. It’s it’s somewhat human like. But, what was funny to me is, you know, this actor, he’s carrying around a basket for a lot of it. Hence, the title basket case. And supposedly, in that basket is this deformed brother. One of the things that I thought was funny and a little bit distracting, was that Belial seemed to change size. Sometimes sometimes he would be so big that you would think he couldn’t possibly fit in that basket, and then sometimes he would be significantly smaller. There’s one scene where, Belial hides in the toilet, which I guess is supposed to be a gag.   And, Dwayne, you know, sits down next to him and pulls him out and is having this scene with what is obviously a prop. But there’s a sincerity in his performance that, you know, almost makes you feel a truth to this relationship between these brothers even though one of them is clearly, you know, some kind of rubber doll. 

Clip:  Look, I’ve helped you with everything so far, haven’t I? Killing Lifflander was your idea. Coming to New York to get the other 2 was your idea. Now wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let me finish. I’m not saying that. Of course, you’re right. They deserve what they get.   All I’m saying is it’s been your idea every step of the way. But I’ve helped you, haven’t I? Never desert you, not after all we’ve been through. You know that. We’ll always be together. 

Craig:  Did you am I am I giving too much credit? I I don’t know. 

Todd:  No, I don’t think you are at all. I think just the very idea and, and you know, you get a lot of leeway here when you’re talking about a deformed twin. It’s not like this is a creature, something that has progeny, something that has come from a lineage of other creatures, and so genetically it it has a certain, you know, for example, you watch a movie and you see a dragon, you know, you expect that dragon to kinda be realistic looking even though there is no such thing as a dragon. You have an idea of other things that are like it. You see a movie like The Thing, which is all about just this sort of genetic, and you can do anything with it really. You can have the monster look however, and no one’s gonna say, oh, well Todd didn’t look real, because it’s kind of your imagination. And the same sense really with this twin, maybe he was formed so that his mouth doesn’t move as much. Maybe he was formed with wrong eyes that are just glassy and staring straight out all the time and can’t move around.   You get so much leeway there that even though this puppet is clearly a puppet, and it’s not a Jim Henson style puppet or quality puppet, it is good enough. It is definitely good enough. And then I think that it’s the the limitations of that puppet. The fact that it does have these sort of dead glassy eyes staring out, and that its mouth can just sort of only open and close and it has these big teeth and these arms that that jut out. It works again, oddly enough in the film’s favor in that it gives you sympathy for this brother. And it and again, I think you’re right. It’s because the other brother plays up the love that he has for his deformed twin so much that you really don’t care what the twin looks like anymore. You know it’s deformed and it’s messed up, and the more messed up it looks, the more sympathy you get for it in a sense.   Does that make sense? 

Craig:  It does make sense. And and you sympathize for both of them because despite the fact that Belial is murderous and really monstrous and like you don’t I don’t know what the film was trying to suggest. You know, it seemed in the beginning, part of the reason I think that I felt especially in that scene where it was the forced separation. And this is kind of tragic. If this were a re obviously this does not look like real conjoined twins but you know if that were for whatever a real situation where there were conjoined twins who had lived you know, 12 or 13 years or whatever together and and had a Todd. Not only do they have a bond because they share a body, but they also are psychically connected. Like, they can they can communicate with each other, without speaking or at least they could when, they were connected. Even though Belial is murderous and is kind of using his brother as his accomplice, a willing accomplice, you don’t even hold that against them because really all they’re doing is seeking revenge on these people who had violated them so terribly.   Now towards the end of the movie, things kind of got muddy for me because there it seems there was some suggestion that Belial was in fact a monster or inhuman. And and I’m not really sure what they were trying to achieve with that. But, overall, you know, they’re the characters are compelling. And that’s it’s surprising. I didn’t expect it. It it Todd me off guard. 

Todd:  Well, and, you know, we’re also talking too here about childhood trauma, which is a little different. You know, a lot of films are deal in the adult world, and we’re talking about a person going out getting revenge for something that happened to them when they were an adult. When you have some modicum of control, when you put yourself into certain situations or you have certain friends and things can get out of hand and blah blah blah. And so there’s less wiggle room when you’re dealing with a child who, has is born with his brother and this this is all he knows. This is his life. He has his brother attached to him and he doesn’t, you know, in a sense, the child doesn’t know he’s deformed. He has to be told he’s deformed because for all he knows, this how everybody is. And as he grows older, he’s still attached to his brother, he has that bond and it’s the adults while he’s still too young to have any agency of his own, it’s the adults that force this separation.   And so, yeah, you can relate to that situation a 100%. I mean, not literally relate to it, but you can easily sympathize with that kind of situation, and it has a little bit more of an emotional impact and you do cut them some slack. You’re right. You do feel, even though murder is wrong and this is bad, that that there’s a certain amount of justification in here, just enough that he doesn’t seem like a total monster. 

Craig:  Well, right. And that that it helps that the doctors, there are 3 of them. The first one gets killed in the very first scene, and then the rest of the movie is in large part Dwayne seeking out these other 2. And and they do eventually find them both and and off Belial offs them, both. But they, you know, again, I don’t know if I can attribute it to good acting but these these doctors are so unfeeling and and you know, really monsters themselves. Mhmm. Not only do they force the separation, but they have no regard. In fact, they would prefer it if Belial would die.   They just they throw him in the garbage. You know, they throw him in a garbage can and put him out by the side of the house. And of course, you know, because Dwayne has the psychic connection with him where Belial communicate with him, he goes and rescues him. And then, Belial and Dwayne, I guess, we don’t really see who’s entirely responsible for it. But, they set up this kind of killing machine that kills their father and then they’re left in the care of their aunt who accepts them both for who they are. Yeah. And and so, yeah. You you you feel for them and you don’t really have much sympathy for the people that they’re taking out because, you know, they’re presented very much as bad people and portrayed as bad people.   So you kind of feel like they have what’s coming to they’re getting what’s coming to them. 

Todd:  Well, yeah. And even in the flashback scenes Todd the father, absolutely no sympathy for him. It it’s almost a comical bit of bad writing too when he approaches those doctors and 

Clip:  All I want is Duane to be normal. It’s too late to change the other one. Just cut Duane from him. I don’t know. I don’t know. No questions asked. Just separate them. 

Todd:  Like, please. Like, this dad cares at least about 1 kid or else he wouldn’t be having this operation in the 1st place, but he’s gonna dig up these hacked doctors. One of whom we find out is actually veterinarian, 

Craig:  right, 

Todd:  to to separate his kid. It it that’s funny. 

Craig:  It is. And, you know, and and I think, you know, that’s the main plot. There’s also a subplot with, Dwayne. He he meets a receptionist in, the office of one of these doctors and they have kind of a romantic subplot which causes, conflicts between him and Belial. We’ll get Todd that in a second. But, I I just thought for whatever reason, you know, they these scenes, we see all 3 of these doctors get murdered in pretty much the same way. But the way that they shoot it is interesting. Like, a lot of time sometimes, the, like, the female doctor, I think, did a lot of struggling with the prop puppet.   There but they I one of the things that I thought this movie was was really interesting about the movie was their different techniques and how they used Belial and the the various puppets and props that they used for him. Sometimes when he’s attacking the doctors, all you will see is his deformed kind of clawed hand come up and scratch them in the face. And there’s lots of blood and there’s lots of splatters of blood, in this movie. And then sometimes, like I said, they’ll struggle with the puppet. And, then there are other times, I don’t remember if this was any of the attacks, but there are some really cool stop motion scenes where they used, I guess a prop or a puppet of or of some type and you can tell that it’s Todd motion. And it’s not even necessarily the best done stop motion. 

Clip:  Doctor. Yeah. 

Craig:  Cool. Doctor. But within the context within the context of the movie, it’s really kind of fascinating to watch, like you kinda can’t pull your eyes away. And I thought it was interesting that they were trying this variety of techniques. The the big puppet, the the one that we actually see his mouth move when he Blyle doesn’t talk. He just screams a lot. He can communicate psychically with his brother, but other than that, he just screams and moans. The main big prosthetic puppet, they did a face mold, of the lead actor.   And the lead actor also provides all of the voice stuff for Belial. And anytime you see that what is obviously a prosthetic glove attacking, that’s him too. So again, this guy, this main guy who plays Dwayne, he may not be the most skilled actor, but, you know, he was really going for it and and, doing whatever the director asked him to. And I just thought that it it was interesting to see. It would have been an interesting process to be a part of, I’m sure, you know, making use of this shoestring budget, utilizing actors as much as you possibly can. It’s, I don’t know. It’s it’s it’s interesting. 

Todd:  Fascinating, and not being able to pull your eyes away is a good way to describe it. You’re right. It’s not super competent, but it’s just interesting enough that you know you’re watching a movie the whole time, and I guess that’s Mhmm. My one knock on it, and there’s nothing they could do about that. They’re doing the best with what they can, but that is not you’re not going to be suspending your disbelief, very hard in this film. And so Right. But I sort of feel like that’s its charm point, and I think that’s what we’re saying here. It’s that’s kind of what’s charming about it, is just seeing this different filmmaking technique, getting that sense of place, and then piled on top of it, it does feel worthwhile because the story is interesting and the characters are relatable, and you do feel for them to a certain extent even though you’re aware that they’re puppets. 

Craig:  Right. And and you said, you know, the story is interesting. I think the story is really interesting. You know, I think that had this taken some other form and if it if it had taken the form of a novel or or potentially even a play, there’s enough intrigue and the material is so dark in a way that I haven’t really see, you know, it’s unique, it’s original. I’ve not seen anything much like it at all. I I think that, you know, I think it could be good fodder for a novel or something. As corny as it probably sounds, you know, us talking about the premise, you know, there is some tragedy to it. There’s the tragedy of, the the boys being separated against their will.   There’s the tragedy of the fact that Belial can never have a normal life. And because he can never have a normal life, neither can Duane. And Duane is becoming a young man and, you know, is is becoming interested in women and surely would like to have some sense of normalcy in his own life and he can never have that. And you see in the actor’s portrayal how he’s coming to terms with that and he’s not it’s like he’s not really coming to terms with it. Here is here’s the small town boy in the big city starting his life, but he’s constantly burdened, with with having to care for his brother and kind of do his brother’s bidding. Now initially, he’s really, like I said before, a willing accomplice. But as Belial gets more and more difficult to control, we really see this actor struggling with, you know, what is he going to do? 

Clip:  Daniel. Daniel. Daniel. Daniel. Daniel. Daniel, talk to me, please. Daniel, Daniel, Daniel. 

Craig:  And then you you feel for the guy. 

Todd:  You do. He’s, you know, he’s really putting himself out there. He’s really setting aside his life for his brother. He’s carrying him around. You know, the the the burden that he is carrying is a physical manifestation. It’s a basket, you know, that he’s walking around with, and you see that, and people are always asking him about it, and he’s always just kind of writing it away. But heck, he even takes him into the bar with him and sets him down. The only thing keeping his brother in there, keeping people from opening it up is this little lock that he puts on it.   And so yeah, it that aspect of the story is really Todd, and I think that’s why this movie works better as a drama, than it does as a scary movie. It’s not really scary because I think in a scary film you have to care about the people who are going to die. You you you’re nervous because you know there’s a killer around the corner, and you’re wondering if you’re gonna get it. In this movie, you really don’t care that these guys get it, and and much like, I think we were talking about prom night, the aspect of who’s gonna get it, at least initially, isn’t ever really a question because we see that this is more of a revenge story. It’s not a monster maniac is on the loose. Although Todd does take that aspect toward the end when the relationship between the two brothers starts to unravel. 

Craig:  Right. And it it really begins to unravel when Duane wants to kind of separate himself. And of course, you know, here I am a teacher of literature. I’m I I’m actually seeing, you know, some effort at like motif and stuff here, you know. Like they’ve got the physical separation but then that also manifest in that they are now kind of being separated emotionally as well. And, and Belisle, you know, doesn’t take that well. He doesn’t like for Dwayne to be going off and doing his own thing. And because they share this psychic connection, there’s an awareness of what’s going on.   That Todd motion scene that I mentioned before, which like you said, is maybe not the best technically. It was really kind of compelling. What happens is, Dwayne sets up this secret date with Sharon, the receptionist, and they go out to the Statue of Liberty. And it looks like they really, you know, shot there. I doubt they got permission or or whatever. But, and they have a nice moment. The the 2 of them, Dwayne and Sharon have a nice moment. Cornball, but nice and It’s the 

Todd:  it’s the fastest buddy romance in the history of movies. I think that she falls for him in like an hour, and suddenly they’re lip locking and talking about how they can’t live without each other. That’s a little silly, but but you’re right. I mean, at least it’s happening. 

Craig:  Yeah. And again, you know, it is silly and it is such a quick budding romance, but there is almost a sense of realism to it. And I think part of it was kind of the actress, you know. I I don’t know anything about her. I can’t speak to her character. She fell apparently, she kind of fell off the face of the earth after this. I read somewhere that she now like makes spiritual bowls or something. She’s like a big hippie or something.   But there was a rawness in her performance that doesn’t seem affected at all. So you almost believe her. Like, you know, like, she almost comes across as a real person. 

Clip:  Dwayne. I know an awful lot of guys, Dwayne. But you’re different. Don’t they have girls upstate? Well, I keep pretty much to myself. You’re dying breed, Dwight. 

Craig:  But yeah. So when they when they start to kiss, Belial senses it and freaks out and destroys the whole room. And it’s really kind of an interesting scene where, you know, he’s really just just completely tearing this room apart and all the other inhabitants of this hotel hear it and they’re gathered outside the door, and there was some good tension there because you think, well he can’t get out and they’re gonna get in there and find him. But they just don’t. And like they’re just willing to kind of accept, well, what are you gonna do? You know, there’s nobody in there now, so I guess we’ll just go about our business. Yeah. And, again, I don’t know if that was meant to be funny, but, it just it it was interesting to watch. 

Todd:  Yeah. No. You’re right. You really feel for this brother because, obviously, he’s getting what, he’s he’s never going to have that kind of a relationship. And, but he he obviously wants it, you know, and he can’t live vicariously enough through his brother to get anything like that. And then as you mentioned earlier, this brother, there’s you know, you mentioned that the girl’s performance, there’s a rawness to it that gives it some Authenticity, maybe? I didn’t really feel that about her performance. I felt more like the brother gave it a little bit of authenticity in that maybe this is just this crazy woman who falls for every guy that she meets, but he is sort of desperate enough and inexperienced enough to to go along with it and just throw in, you know, whole hog. And so, you know, and so that was the kindest explanation I could give in my mind. 

Craig:  Fair enough. 

Todd:  You know, to resolve that this is gonna be this quick little romance that happens. But you’re right. The reaction to it’s very real, and you can feel for the brothers on both sides. It’s really quite touching. And again, without that device of the telepathy, this really wouldn’t have worked as well, I think, because that adds yet another layer to it. It’s not like his brother can just sneak out and have these trysts and come back and always have an excuse or an explanation. His deformed twin is always going to know and it’s always going to be touched and affected by whatever his brother does. And that’s a really unique spin on. 

Craig:  It is, and it leads to some really interesting stuff in the movie. You know, we’ve really kind of glossed over the plot, but it’s okay. You know, it’s really just kind of that revenge plot. But towards the end, it starts to get really interesting, when Dwayne starts to kinda go out like you said before he went to a bar and he gets drunk at the bar and there’s this really nice lady from, you know, the, hotel that he kind of drinks with and he tells her the whole back story. When they get back, he’s incapacitated. He’s drunk. He’s passed out and Belial sneaks into, this woman’s bed, and scares her, of course. I I didn’t really understand why she didn’t figure out what that was in her bedroom since Duane had just told her, like, 5 seconds before.   Right? But, again, Belial is able to escape. Sharon was the receptionist for one of these doctors that, Belial has killed. And, all of this just takes place over a couple of days. The day after that guy is killed, he’s killed after hours so Sharon doesn’t find out until the next day. And she’s very shaken up about it and so she comes to Dwayne for comfort and support and a romp in the sack it appears. And they Todd, they they get on the bed and they’re they’re making out, and it seems like things are gonna progress. You know, I think she even says something super cornball like, take me or something stupid like that. Yeah.   And as as he is beginning to get intimate with her, again, Belial freaks out, jumps out of his, basket. And it was a it’s a strange dynamic. You know, I couldn’t tell if Dwayne was listening to what Belial was saying because we never hear what what Belial is saying in Dwayne’s head. He he responds sometimes. We never know exactly what it is Belial is saying. And so Dwayne just kind of sits, stands or is laying there frozen for a while holding Sharon down while Belial is freaking out. And eventually, in a kind of comic fashion, he like wraps her up in the sheet and takes her and just throws her out of the room. And that’s when he kind of has his big breakdown where he’s like, Why can’t you just let me have a normal life? And, it’s really kind of touching.   And then he goes to sleep and Bilal comes out of his basket. And this is where things got kind of weird for me and I wonder what your take is on it because Bilal goes over to Dwayne and you’re not sure what he’s gonna do. I I wasn’t sure if he was going to attack Dwayne or if he was being, I don’t know, if he just wanted to kind of touch him or be near him. But then you get some close-up shots of Belial and his eyes start glowing red. And throughout this whole time, as monstrous as he looked, because we’ve been given no other explanation or suggestion, I just kind of assumed that he was intended to be a terribly deformed human being. And then this kind of started made made me start to question that. What was your take on that? 

Todd:  I honestly didn’t know what to make of it. My take on it was they just wanted to make him look a little more monstrous, so they thought, oh hey, let’s make his eyes glow red. I’d be surprised if I mean, what is the other explanation? That he’s some alien, that he’s some creature that came down and attached himself to it, that his mother got impregnated with something unholy and that’s why he was a conjoined twin in the first place? There’s nothing nothing, not a hint of anything else in the movie that I could detect, that would have hinted any of that. 

Craig:  Yeah. And I don’t know if any of that is addressed in the sequels. There are 2 sequels, but I haven’t seen them. I I want to now, but I I haven’t yet. But anyway, then we get this really kind of odd sequence. Initially, what the director wanted to do was he wanted to have, Belial goes out the window. And you know, having seen this already, I knew where he was going. I feel like it’s pretty obvious that he was headed to Sharon’s, place.   And the way that they wanted to shoot it was they wanted to do the stop motion with Belial going through the streets of, downtown New York. But they Todd decided that So instead Todd happens, and I guess it’s because they’re psychically connected, Dwayne, he’s asleep. So I guess you could call it a dream or maybe more appropriately a vision. He has a vision of himself running down the streets of New York completely nude. Correct. And we are seeing from what appears to be his perspective that eventually he reaches Sharon’s house and she’s sleeping naked, fortunately for him. And it appears that he is starting to touch her and we see his hands touching her. Then he wakes up and he’s still in his bed and, you know, you kinda see on his face.   It’s almost like he has this realization and he runs out there and we cut back to Sharon and it’s in fact Belial who is, on top of her, you know, who is who’s fondling her. And of course, she she panics and screams. My interpretation of this scene, because we don’t really get to see a lot, we only see it really from Belial’s perspective. So all we really see is his hands, holding her neck. But before that, before she even woke up, the camera was doing this like zoom in, zoom out thing. I don’t even think it was a zoom. I think that whoever was holding the camera was literally moving it towards her and pulling it back to suggest thrusting. Yeah.   Like, while while was attempting to rape her, which I don’t really understand how that works because he’s just a torso from, like like, the chest up. But but the result is that she panics and, he ends up, he ends up killing her. And, again, you know, when Dwayne barges in, it’s the puppet sitting on her nude dead Todd, and there’s lots of blood underneath the puppet that I didn’t know if I was supposed to think that that was supposed to be from him or from him at his attempts at raping her. I don’t know. I I guess it doesn’t really matter, but it was very unsettling as far as imagery goes. 

Todd:  Well, he’s bouncing up and down on her too, and there’s a squishing sound. I mean, I think once it gets into the wide shot, it’s pretty clear. Yeah. Because he’s sitting right there on her crotch, you know. 

Clip:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  It is. You’re right. It’s very unsettling. It’s very weird. I think a lot of people might even call it a tasteless moment, in the movie. Definitely takes it to a very, very dark place. But Mhmm. It still works, you know.   I mean, it’s 

Craig:  It works in the context of this movie because you’re not real you know, it’s so gritty that and seedy. And that’s the tone that they’ve and the atmosphere that they’ve established that it seems in keeping. Yes, I agree that it is almost tasteless and it does, it, you know, I mean it’s an eighties horror film so T and A were, you know, kind of the genre. But I mean it Todd, it feels a little exploitive of this actress. You know, she’s very vulnerable. She’s completely nude. There’s lots of things happening to her body that I’m sure were uncomfortable. I heard for some I think I read somewhere that for some reason, the crew became really upset during the filming of this scene and left.   And that’s all I read. I don’t know why. I have no idea what prompted it. But maybe it was just the level of discomfort for the or or like you said, the the the level of tastefulness, of it. But, anyway, Dwayne does barge in and, he gets Belisle and gets him back in the basket and, takes him back to the hotel where you know, he’s yelling and screaming at Bilal. Of course, nobody else can see him because he’s in the basket. They all just think he’s nuts. But they get into the room.   And how does this play out? Remind me, do they just struggle? I mean, is that how it happens? 

Todd:  I don’t really remember how they end up kind of fighting, but you get the impression that maybe this is the end, that this Belial is gonna kill him because he’s just so frustrated, I guess. And I think it it makes sense. It’s it I think it’s meant to be this final duel between the brothers. It’s it’s like Frankenstein, but not in a way because Mhmm. He didn’t create his brother, but he’s burdened with him, and he bears a certain level of responsibility. In fact, the scene when he does break in and, you know, kills Sharon is very reminiscent obviously of the the end of Frankenstein. And so that really becomes that final straw for him, much like it was for Victor Frankenstein. And so I thought this scene I mean, I felt like it was it was just a scene for scene, kind of like Frankenstein is.   They have their battle, and only one of them is going to get out of it okay. At least that’s what you’re thinking. But instead, they go end up by the window and whether it’s intentional or not, it seems like Belial pushes him out the window or forces him out the window or in the ensuing struggle, he ends up out the window. And when I first saw it, I thought he was doing that on purpose. But then the next shot, Belial’s actually holding him like he doesn’t want him to fall. And so 

Craig:  And this was actually kind of funny. I thought there’s, like, hookers hanging down below and, like, one of them sees him and just gives out, like, the most inauthentic screen. 

Clip:  Oh, what’s that? Oh, girls. Look at that. What is that? 

Craig:  And oh, yes. The the crowd starts gathering. Yeah. Seeing this imagery, it really, it affected me in a really surprising way. Like it really felt tragic to me. Like you said, it seems like Belial is trying to keep them both from falling. Now he could easily let Dwayne go and maybe if he did that, that would make it easier for him to hang on, but he’s not. He’s holding on.   But at the same time, somehow he’s choking Dwayne, too. Like it doesn’t appear that that’s intentional. It’s like he’s just trying to hold on to him but at the same time, he’s strangling him and so it’s like Dwayne is hanging. And you know, it just it struck me as being really tragic and sad that this was how their journey was going to end. And and it does, you know, eventually they fall. And I I very much got the feeling that we were meant to believe that they had both died. 

Clip:  Doctor. Yeah. 

Craig:  And as corny and and you know, odd as this movie was, it really kinda made me sad. You know, I felt like it was really kinda tragic and a tragic ending. And that and that it just ends there with the Craig surrounding them. You know, it’s kinda like the end of King Kong where Yeah. You know, it’s just a gathering crowd and and the the camera pulls away and and the credits start to roll. I I thought it was I don’t know. It it affected me far more than it probably should have. I don’t I don’t know why. 

Todd:  Well, it it sets up a really interesting moral situation, I thought. In this case, as you said, he wasn’t holding on to his hand, but he’s holding on to his neck, and he’s clearly choking. And so either way, his brother is going to die. Either he continues to hold him up above the street, and he will choke to death, or he drops him and he will surely, you know, break his his neck and die on the street below. And so the choice becomes, does he let him go? Does Belial let let Dwayne go and save himself or does he let go and they both tumble to certain doom? And the choice that he made was we’re both gonna tumble to certain doom, which makes logical sense because really without his brother, he can’t function in life. And as mad as he can get at him and as jealous as he can be at him, this deformed twin is not gonna last long without his brother carrying him around in the basket, and he knows that. So it’s really the only way it could end at that point, and that’s what makes I think that’s what makes it so tragic. I mean, it didn’t emotionally affect me in the same way because I think, for me, the whole time, I felt like I was watching a movie.   Everything else was a little too distracting, for me to suspend my disbelief. But the idea of it, I 100% agree with you. It is tragic. It is sad. And, yeah, I think we’re supposed to believe that they both died because of the way it was shot. 

Craig:  Yeah. And I don’t remember it affecting me so much the first time around. So maybe I was just in a weird mood when I watched this yesterday. I don’t know. But, and and it it almost okay. I I really kind of desperately want to see the sequels now. Doctor. Yeah. 

Clip:  Uh-huh. Doctor. 

Craig:  And I, fortunately, thanks to you, have access to them. But, I don’t know. And I I I like I said, I haven’t seen them, but I was just reading a little bit about them today. And I guess, the main guy does, come back to the same role. So it, apparently, the first sequel picks up exactly where we leave off in the first one and it just turns out that they are not dead and they get whisked away by an ambulance or or whatever. While I desperately want to see it and will watch it, I almost feel like that almost takes a little bit away from the effectiveness of the ending, of this movie. I’m totally willing to let it go. It’s not gonna bother me but, but it, you know, I I thought that the ending was fitting for the movie.   You know, the the fact that they did both die tragically, I thought that that was a fitting ending. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. It it it really was. And it was honestly, I felt like something like this was gonna happen from the beginning. I just felt like it was going to be that kind of story. And so it works, you know, even though the writing is not good from a dialogue perspective, and even though the camerawork is, I think, distractingly poor, there’s lighting issues, like light is coming from odd places lots of times from the floor in these scenes. Mhmm. Even though all of that is the fact, at least the structure of the story and thematically, it almost just makes up for it anyway. It’s it’s not a movie that I would say, oh, everybody needs to go out and see, but it is a movie that I would say you’re not wasting your time if you do see it.   You’re gonna come away with something. You’re gonna come away with the atmosphere, that gritty atmosphere, and that look at at that side of New York that in some ways doesn’t really exist anymore. At least when it does, it’s it’s in pockets. And you’re also getting this thematic, these ideas these ideas that that will stay with you that you might mull over for a while. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s interesting that you said that you wouldn’t, recommend it to everybody. I certainly wouldn’t either. Right before you’re right before you said that, I was getting ready to say, I would recommend this to horror fans. It’s just such a like and not only horror fans but anybody who is really interested in cinema, you know, for cinema’s sake. I think that it’s, you know, it’s such an Todd, it’s such a curiosity, that it’s just unlike anything I’ve ever seen before or since. And that, I don’t know. That for that reason alone, I find it interesting and fascinating. 

Todd:  Yeah. I’d put it there kind of again, with Pink Flamingos, they’re 2 very different movies. Right. It’s exactly the same thing. I would not recommend that movie to anybody. However, if you’re into cinema, and you you you you need to see it. You need to experience that movie, kinda see what it’s like. You will find it fascinating.   And, yeah, you’re right. I felt the same way about this film. Thank you for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. We’re up on iTunes, we’re at Stitcher. Please check us out on Facebook, like us there, and continue the conversation with us. We’d love to hear what you think and hear your recommendations for movies that we should watch into the future. Until that time, I’m Todd, 

Craig:  and I’m Craig

Todd:  with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Why has this hilarious horror-comedy flown under the radar? Penned by the minds behind Saw and Glee, An ensemble cast of well-known comedy stars defend themselves against an invasion of rabid zombie children.

Cooties (2014)

Episode 45, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Craig:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Craig. 

Todd:  And I’m Todd. 

Craig:  And this week, it was my turn to pick the movie, and so I went with 2014’s Cooties. This is a movie led by Elijah Wood in what I thought was a really, really funny ensemble cast. As I mentioned before, it came out in 2014. I had seen this movie before, but I don’t think you had. Had you, Todd? 

Todd:  No. I no. I hadn’t even heard of it before. So I was I was actually pretty surprised when I saw that the cast list, and started watching the film that I’d never heard of it. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s got a pretty good, pretty strong cast of recognizable faces, people that you would recognize from, mostly comedy really because, while this certainly has some really intense elements of horror, a lot of the focus is on the comedy. And I think that it’s it’s really successful there. But, you’ve got, Rainn Wilson who was hilarious on The Office. You’ve got, who else? Kate Flannery, who just makes a cameo at the very beginning. She’s also from The Office. Nasim Todd, who, has done Saturday Night Live and and is popping up a lot, on TV these days and in movies. Jorge Garcia from Lost, also a really funny guy.   So some some pretty, reasonably big names, in the movie. And I saw it, I don’t know, sometime earlier this year. And I remembered that I had really enjoyed it. But watching it again reminded me that this movie is really just a laugh out loud funny. Like at least for the first 45 minutes to an hour, I mean, I was just cracking up through the whole thing. What did you think? 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. The same way. It was like watching a Saturday Night Live skit that really hit all the right notes or The Office. The comedy was in it was just I thought it was very sophisticated. I thought it was really funny. It was very modern and contemporary. The jokes came fast, and it was, again, one of those comedies where it doesn’t feel like they’re trying so hard that it, goes really silly. It just felt like and I know this isn’t the case, but it felt like all these guys got together and, like, spitballed this movie, and it just played to everyone’s strengths.   You know? And I was really surprised. 

Craig:  Yeah. I thought so too. 

Todd:  I was really surprised to see who wrote it. I mean, Lee Whannel, who is not really or Whannell. Is it Whannell? Lee Whannell who 

Craig:  I think so. I’m not really sure. 

Todd:  The guy behind Saw, who’s not really, as far as I’m concerned, known for being the best writer, although he’s improving considerably. But then his cowriter on this was Ian Brennan who created Glee, and it has a lot of that same flavor, kind of like that, that that more understated television comedy that we see right now, like, from shows like Glee or like Modern Family, and The Office. Yeah. It and I bet a lot of the jokes in here ended up, from just getting these people together and and having them improvise a little bit too. You know? Or people probably came up with ideas. 

Craig:  Oh, I’m   sure you’re right. 

Todd:  Yeah. Just great. I thought it was funny through through and throughout. 

Craig:  Yeah, I did too. And and like you said, the jokes just come like really rapid fire. Like, it just seems like every line, every other line is is genuinely funny. The premise of the movie, you know, we usually do quite a bit of recap and I don’t know how well that’s gonna work here because so much of it really is just about the jokes and the humor especially through the first half. But the premise is pretty simple and I think really clever. You’ve got, Elijah Wood who is a struggling writer who I guess has lived in New York for a little while, but has now moved back home to his small town, of Fort Chicken. And he is to make a little bit of money on the side, I guess, he is going to be substituting at the elementary school that he had attended as a child. And that’s how the movie starts.   You know, he wakes up in the morning and, actually his mom, who is played by Kate Flannery, who is just hysterical, on The Office. She wakes him up and they talk about, his book and he asked, you know, have you read, the first part of the book? And and she says, Oh, yeah. I read it. It’s great. It’s great. It’s great. He says, Well, you know, I I could use a little creative feedback.   Well, I did think the characters were a tiny bit unlikable. That’s more like it. Noted. And it was a little slow. I found myself a little bored, to be honest. And I heart honesty. I also didn’t know what was going on or where we were. It wasn’t explained very well.   Frankly, I couldn’t figure out the plot. It was kind of insulting, and there was no specificity in the writing in terms of time and place. Okay. And where was the inciting incident? Okay. Okay. This this is wow. Thank you. But mostly, I loved it.   Now get on up and teach those summer school kids how to write like you.   And and you get the sense that, you know, this this guy, this young guy, he he really is struggling, as, an author. But he’s gonna be going, to substitute at this school. And, he he he does. He goes there. And on the way, he’s like practicing opening lines for chapter 1 of his book and and he says like, The boat was evil, but he loved the boat. Or, the boat was somewhat evil, but he loved it anyway. And, like, all these different goofy, every single one of them bad. And then finally, after he’s rattled off several, he goes, it’s getting there.   And it’s it’s it’s so I mean, it’s just so goofy. But he gets to school and right away, like, just everything is funny. The interactions, you know, he’s walking in as parents are dropping off their kids, and the interactions between the parents and the kids are hilarious. This is, an r rated film, and, there’s a Todd amount of gore in it later on. But even had there not been, for the language alone, it would have gotten, a Todd solid r. So you you see kids, telling their parents to f off and then other kids are having really sweet moments with their parents. But it’s it’s funny stuff. And then he gets inside where he meets, the vice principal who is filling in.   The regular principal is out, and, the vice principal who is played by, Ian Brennan, one of the writers. 

Clip:  Righteous. Thanks so much for coming in on such short notice. Looks like missus Kenner’s down with a stomach flu or maybe she’s pregnant because she is Mormon, so that’s always a possibility. 

Craig:  It is just these little irreverent jokes throughout. I mean, you know, that’s it could be offensive in certain audiences, but, you know, it’s it’s really played for the humor and it works. He, takes him to the teacher’s lounge where we then get to meet the rest of this ensemble cast who I thought, was really good. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. I mean, you’ve got some great characters here. So that was, there’s Wade, who is played by Rainn Wilson, who is the, PE teacher, I guess. And he’s just this goofball, almost kind of rednecky guy. He the the funny the quirky funny things he does with these characters just keep them from being too stock. You know? I mean, they are a little too stock, but, they’re quirky enough that that really doesn’t bother you. It’s just kind of a character type that they’re playing. You have Doug, who is played by Leigh Whannell, and he’s I don’t, man, I don’t even know how to describe this guy.   He’s just a super awkward human being where you realize something’s wrong with this guy. Like, he just has a mental problem. Like, he’s, what do you call it? When he he just lacks social skills completely? 

Craig:  Yeah. When you first see him, he’s sitting he’s sitting in a corner reading a book called How to Have a Normal Conversation. 

Todd:  And he’s just awkwardly trying. So it it makes him endearing, actually. Like, even though this guy is saying and being ridiculous and and stating the obvious and, kind of annoying, you kinda feel for him because immediately just the fact that he’s reading that book and he’s trying awkwardly and failing and then kind of ducking out of the conversation again to, like, regroup his head, you feel like at least, he’s he’s trying and and, he he’s endearing in that way. And I was actually I agree. Taken by that character, as it even more so as the movie went on. And the movie got weirder, and he got weirder. And then there’s Lucy, which who is, the girl that, Clint, we find out later. All along, he knew that she was still teaching at the school.   He’s a former classmate of hers, and he knew that she was teaching there. And so he that’s part of the reason why he decided to come back and substitute, was trying to meet up with her. But she’s already hooked up with Wade. It’s a little unlikely, this little romance Right. Or whatever. But again, it’s the sort of thing that does tend to happen in a small town. People, meet up for the oddest reason. So, she seems fairly normal, I guess, compared to everybody else.   Wait. 

Craig:  She’s like the really nice one. She’s the sugary sweet one. 

Todd:  And pretty and all that. And and so they have this awkward conversation Todd. And he, you know, you get the sense that every he’s coming back and he feels like he’s kind of a rock star because he’s been to New York and everybody knows that he’s been to New York. And the the rumor, you know, the talk basically is that he’s a writer, but he’s coming back to to regroup. And and it it’s funny because they’re talking, in a sense, like he’s a teacher. Like, he’s teaching at the school, and and he’s even just a sub. You know? He’s not even Yes. It’s it’s really so kind of lame that it’s again, it’s this, like, cute lame that being Elijah Todd, he plays it just so sweet and nicely.   Elijah Wood just has that look. He’s just he’s just like a hobbit through and through. You know, he just has a total innocence about him. There’s even a joke in the movie about him being like a hobbit. It you know, they don’t mind going into that territory. It’s it’s great. I loved the characters. I liked the situation.   And I don’t know about you, Craig, as a teacher, you know, and and I’m teaching here Todd, working with smaller kids. That was funny too, the way that they captured all of the little modern bits and about what a school is like and what kids are like nowadays and the fact they’re on medication and things like that. 

Craig:  Yeah. You would think that somebody, you know, one of the writers either has a parent or a spouse or somebody who’s a teacher because they really, you know, it’s it’s obviously kind of, an incredible scenario once we get into the zombie stuff. But, just, you know, kind of the interaction with the kids and like you said, the different types of kids. You’ve got some of the kids who, are, you know, good, normal, well behaved. Then you’ve got the ones that are really entitled and nasty and, talk back and whatnot. But even towards the end of the movie, I think it’s Wade even talks about being a teacher and how being a teacher is such a difficult job and people always think, you know, you must have really wanted to do something else but you couldn’t so instead you ended up teaching and, I, you know, again, that’s that’s pretty late in the movie that he says those things. But being a teacher, I’m like, that’s right. You tell them.   You know, people people I I think teachers don’t get the appreciation that they deserve, and it seems like the creative team behind this, kinda wanted to put that out there a little bit. And I I appreciated that. 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. And I felt like you could have taken the zombies out of this movie. And this still would have been a movie I would have wanted to watch about these teachers at this school and these kids because it was just so funny, and it was so such an interesting situation, period. 

Craig:  Right. Right. And and and if you would do that, I think that you would have something that would be probably it would work really well in television right now. But instead, you know, we do get then this horror element. I guess I I failed to mention that at the very beginning, the very opening scene is actually in this dark disgusting like chicken processing plant, and we get to see in gory detail how the chickens are killed and and processed and, it’s it’s really pretty gross but sadly probably not terribly inaccurate. But some we see that some of this chicken is rotten or school, and this young girl bites into it and it just oozes out all this green sludge and, that’s when the title card, comes up. Yeah. It was disgusting.   But but that’s what happens, you know. This one girl has, eaten, this infected or whatever chicken nugget And, when Clint actually goes to his classroom, he’s he’s subbing for 4th grade. He kinda gets into it with, this little prick kid named Patriot, who plays this rotten asshole kid so well. I didn’t write down the actor’s name, but he he really nails it. He’s really the kind and Elijah Todd said it says at some point that he wishes he could punch him in the face or something and he really plays that kind of kid really well. Clint, Elijah Wood is trying to be the cool teacher.   I know I’m the substitute, but I’m also a friend. 

Clip:  It wasn’t so long ago that 

Craig:  I was sitting exactly where you are. In fact, don’t tell those other teachers, but I want you to call me by my first name. Kind? What? No. You can’t say. Okay. No. My name is Clint. You know what? Just call me mister Hudson.   No. I’m not really a teacher. I’m only substituting to pay the bills. I’m actually writing a horror novel. Pretty cool, 

Clip:  Yeah. Real cool, asshole. 

Craig:  First off, could you keep the language down please, Patriot? Otherwise, I’ll send you outside. Yeah. 

Clip:  When you were just talking, I just looked at, like, a 100 vaginas. 

Craig:  And, and he he, Clint tries to take away his phone, but the kid’s like, how about I tell my parents you touched me inappropriately or something like that? And so he lets him keep it. Patriot is patronizing this girl who he had seen eat the chicken nugget before, and he reaches over to tug on her pony or her pigtail and it comes off, and just leaves a gross wound on her head. And she gets up and she’s clearly some sort of zombie and she attacks Patriot and takes a big bite out of his cheek and then runs off. And, Clint has to take Patriot to the nurse. There’s kind of a funny exchange in there, but we can see, that he is already changing. That this is a rapid change. It’s not something that takes very long at all. Clint comes back, I guess it when all the kids go out to recess, Clint comes back to the teacher’s lounge.   And we didn’t mention all the characters, and and they’re worth mentioning. There’s there’s a male teacher named Tracy played by Jack McBrayer who people would recognize as Kenneth from 30 Rock. You know, I haven’t seen him in a lot of things. He kinda always seems to play the same character but it’s funny, and he’s funny here too. And then you’ve got, Rebecca played by Nassim Todd who like I said, I’ve seen her in other stuff. She just, wrapped up a season of Ryan Murphy’s scream queens and she was good on that. But she is hilarious here. She’s like the uptight conservative one who wears, a rape button, on her lapel, just in case.   And she has, you know, when they are actually in the classroom, which that really doesn’t take much of the movie at all. But we see her in the classroom, and she’s talking about evolution. And her speech about evolution is just one of the funniest things that I’ve heard in a long time. 

Clip:  Class. Maybe we were created by an all knowing Todd who sent down his only son to die for us, Or maybe we were monkey people who sat around crapping in each other’s mouths until one day we were like, I don’t like all this hair. Just on my head and crotch, please. Who can say? I can’t because the state of Illinois doesn’t allow me to, Hank. 

Craig:  Yeah. But anyway, all the kids are out at recess. 1 of Patriot’s friends approaches the girl who had bit him and, says, hey, you bit my friend. And she jumps up and scratches him. He immediately turns and then goes on this rampage running around scratching all the other kids on the playground, and it’s just chaos immediately. All of the kids start turning, into zombies immediately. They start attacking the teachers and there’s just mass carnage. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and of course, the assistant principal who’s sort of this new agey guy trying to be cool and has these ideas. It’s like he has all these ideas for the school that he couldn’t execute as assistant principal. But now that the principal’s away, he’s he wants to try. He comes out and tries to calm the kids down. And and, of course, it’s like Dawn of the Dead style, where they converge on him and they start pulling him apart. And 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  I mean, it’s really gory. I mean, it is literally It is. The dead style. And so it’s an interesting balance, and I’m sure there are people who would complain about this, except that we’re seeing a lot more movies like this that aren’t afraid to mix this extreme humor with this extreme horror. But at least in in this case, it’s like you’re watching a TV comedy, and so you’re not expecting it to get that gross, so quickly. At the same time, it’s not far removed from, like, zombie land or something like that. And True. And we have Hurley’s character, Rick Rick 

Craig:  who Jorge Garcia. 

Todd:  Jose Jorge Garcia, who’s like the crossing guard at the school. And he has he has, a while ago, retreated into his, van in order to just ingest magic mushrooms, and he takes a lot of them. And it’s really funny because he kind of witnesses this from the from his van and isn’t sure what he does, but he decides he needs to make a phone call anyway. And, I think was this to the assistant principal? Maybe this was actually before the assistant principal came out. But he makes a call, and it’s so funny. 

Craig:  I’m under some medication for medical conditions, so I may not be seeing things correctly, but I’m pretty sure I might be seeing some of your students possibly eating, mister Peterson.   It is really funny. But you’re you’re right. The the gore is pretty intense, and I was a little surprised, because like you said, you don’t often see both extremes, you know, the the really going for the comedy and also paying attention to the horror elements or at least the gore here. I wouldn’t say really the movie is very scary. There’s there’s some good suspenseful scenes where people are being chased and and what not. But it it’s certainly gory. If you’re not a fan of gory, you would not wanna see this I don’t think. You know, like you said, the vice principal comes out and they just totally disembowel him while he’s alive and they’re eating.   They’ve got blood all over their faces and they’re just eating him alive. At one point later on, it just we cut back out the playground where most of these kids are congregated and like, one little girl’s jumping rope with some intestines, one kid is riding a bike with cut off fingers for the the the tire spokes. They’re using they’ve they’ve they’ve put one of the teachers heads at the end of the tetherball rope and they’re playing tetherball with a a head. And it’s all pretty gross and   and the effects are are practical and, pretty convincing.   So you And, pretty convincing. So you definitely get your fair share of gore. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s gross but goofy. And you feel like maybe they felt like they had to strike that Todd, that they couldn’t get too serious with it because they’re really going to a taboo place here. We don’t usually see, kids, getting getting caught up and getting beat because, of course, they have to fight back at these kids. So they’re shooting them, and they’re beating them over the head bashing them on over the head with it. And when when the violence towards the kids, gets intense, that stuff tends to happen a little more off screen. That stuff tends to be a little more quick cut, Whereas, you know, the obviously, the zombie kids are biting and eating and scratching, and it’s not a thing. But just dealing with kids in general is something that horror movies have traditionally really skated around a bit.   Like, you know, we talked about last week with The Burning, that with even with the slasher movies that take place at a summer camp, it’s usually the counselors that that are getting it. It’s the older ones. It’s the teenagers. It’s not the 5 and 6 year olds, or the 7 or 8 year olds, or the 10 or 11 year olds, who are getting murdered and things. Because for some reason, we don’t mind a huge body count of adults, but you throw in 1 young adult in there and, everybody gets a little uneasy. This movie, I think, probably goes What? Yeah. You know? And don’t you feel like probably a lot of that’s on purpose? A lot of the the the goofiness, the over the top ness of it is to tone that down a little bit? 

Craig:  Maybe. I I just thought that it was a bold decision. You know, you do see evil kid movies sometimes. But like you said, any violence against them is usually pretty downplayed or you don’t see a lot of it on the screen. You know, I’m thinking like Village of the Damned or something or even something like this. I remember the first time I saw it, I thought, Oh, these kids are infected, but it’ll just be a matter of, you know, they the grown ups will just have to stay alive and then somehow, they’ll cure the kids and everybody will be okay and it’ll be a light happy ending. And and that’s not the case here. You know, the kids get infected and they’re infected Todd they’re dangerous.   And, yeah. They I mean, these people, you know, they’re just they’re defending themselves, but they don’t really pull any punches as far as the violence against kids is concerned. And again, you know, these kids, they’re they’re violent, they’re bloody, they’re aggressive, they’re scary. So it’s not like you have a whole lot of empathy for them, but just by nature of the fact that they’re kids, I think that might be a little bit taboo. And so I thought the choice to really just go for it, was a bold choice and I I thought it worked. And it kinda makes the movie stand out from others. 

Todd:  It does. Yeah. You know, and fast forwarding a little bit into the fact that the okay. So everybody realizes that they’re the vamp the zombies out there. Attempts to reach the outside are failing, especially because the vice had collected all the teachers’ cell phones, and so one of the things they decide they can do is maybe try to get back to their cell phones. But in the meantime, the power gets cut at the school, because the kids tear all that out. They don’t really have any way of getting out. Yet they’re still, at least a little before that, and through these different methods, hearing a little bit of contact from the outside to realize that this is spreading through very quickly outside the school.   So, in fact, probably other schools that also got this chicken in the area. The first day was a recall, and then there are weird things happening. And then the mayor is closed down or evacuated half of the Todd, and then you later on realize that other cities are getting this, and it’s just all within a day. 

Craig:  So Right. Right. 

Todd:  So there’s that aspect to it. So the the the teachers and everybody are trapped inside, and they’re trying to figure out what to do. And and the kids are breaching in left and right. And there’s this scene where, Rainn Wilson’s character, Wade, picks up a basically, to defend one of the one of the people from pretty much certain death, happens to bust in. And he picks up a fire extinguisher from the wall and just starts bashing, the zombie kid’s head in repeatedly. And there’s blood spraying everywhere, and it just stops everyone dead in their tracks. Because even though he’s just saved them and he’s bashing the zombie skull in, it’s so brutal. And I think it’s because it’s so brutal toward this kid that everyone just doesn’t know what to say.   It’s this moment where the movie really calls that point out and makes up a point of it and makes a thing of it. But thankfully, it never goes. I didn’t feel like it got uncomfortable. Did you? 

Craig:  I didn’t. No. I didn’t. But I I do. I know what moment you’re talking about and, yeah, it’s it’s almost, you know, they’ve already they’ve seen so much carnage. But the carnage they’ve seen has been at the hands of the kids. And Todd now see the carnage actually against one of the kids, it it like, they literally pause for a moment. And I think that they were also pausing because Wade is now covered in blood.   Yeah.   And if we have any familiarity with, zombie lore at all, it’s that, you know, it’s it’s infectious. And it it usually passes through bites or or cuts or you know, it’s transmitted through bodily fluids. And even before this, we see that Clint, Elijah Wood has started to feel sick and and they ask him if he had gotten bitten or cut or he had a band aid on his arm and they wanna know what it is. And when he takes it off, it Todd does look it’s gross. It’s like it’s infected. And so they think that he must be infected, too, but he’s not turning zombie like. He’s just kinda having like flu like symptoms. And Doug, who I guess is the science teacher tells all of them well. 

Clip:  It is my opinion that Clint has been infected with Yeah. I know. Kids have that. 

Craig:  Oh, my Todd. Oh, my God. 

Clip:  But it doesn’t seem to be affecting him in the same way. He’s only exhibiting mild stomach flu symptoms, nausea, cramps, a little diarrhea, vomiting, mild anal leakage. But it is my hypothesis that we are safe from him for now. He will not attempt to murder us or tear us limb from limb. 

Craig:  She just has the flu. 

Clip:  Hold on a second. How do you how do you know all this? 

Craig:  Well, Rebecca, I just examined his fluids 

Clip:  with 2 of history’s oldest scientific instruments, my hands. Oh, duh. 

Craig:  Oh. I’m wearing gloves. Oh, no. You’re not. 

Clip:  Nope. No. You’re not. 

Craig:  And at at some point, they also you know, they find a little kid, who was studying in the library instead about at recess. And he joins them because he’s not infected. At one point, they they get up on the roof and they’re joined by another young girl, not really young, puberty age as it comes to pass. But that scene, I had almost forgotten. I’m glad I didn’t go pass it. That scene where they’re on the roof, the reason that they’re up there on the roof is because it’s about 3 o’clock and the parents supposed to be arriving. And the 1st parent to arrive is like the head of the PTA or something like that. Yeah.   And she always gets there early to open the gates for the other parents. And so, the teachers are all standing up on the roof like screaming and waving their arms, but she’s on her phone. She’s got her earbuds in on her phone and she’s talking to somebody about the school and talking about how she knows everything that goes down at this school. Meanwhile, she’s totally oblivious Todd what’s going on around her. And this scene was shocking to me because you’ve got this mom, you know, she’s just this pretty soccer mom, but in the back seat, there’s this little blonde baby, and the mom turns around and talks to her and says, You’re my little angel. Or something like that. But her kid who had been at school starts walking towards the car and the other teachers see that and of course, they know and we know that the kid’s a zombie, but the mom’s not paying any attention and so the kid gets in the back seat of the car and I think surely not. You know, like, as far as they push the boundaries already, eating babies, they’re surely not gonna go there, but they sure do.   You know, we don’t see it. We just hear the commotion in the back seat. And finally, the mother says, Now what are you doing with your brother in the back seat? And then it’s so fast that I think that I missed it the first time, but I noticed this time the baby jumps up and and attacks the mother. And so they know they’re they’re probably not getting help, from the parents at that point. Like I said, it’s it’s it’s hard because, you know, the plot it’s not like it’s thin and it and it’s not boring, but it’s basically just they have to stay away from the kids. Wade doesn’t turn even though he’s been splashed with all the blood in his face. Clint doesn’t turn and this other girl that they have picked up, she’s gotten bitten too, but she doesn’t turn either. And so Doug figures out, that it only it only turns people who’ve not yet reached puberty.   And he gives this big, long scientific explanation, which I had absolutely no idea if there’s any actual scientific truth behind what he’s saying. But he sure sounds like he knows what he’s talking about. And so they realize it only affects kids. It may make adults, you know, not feel well, but it Todd doesn’t, affect them the same way. Again, then when they figure that out, it’s just kinda more running around through the schools. But it’s not, you know, when we talked about prom night a few weeks ago, there was this scene where this girl was getting chased through the school and it was just so monotonous and boring and nothing was ever happening. I mean, the the action here is is pretty quick, and, you know, they’re they’re facing, hoards of kids at every turn. At some point, they end up down in the basement and all the powers cut.   And the little boy who they have with him, coincidentally, goes kind of into diabetic shock a little bit or starting to. So they know they have to get them some foods. They have to get back to the teacher’s lounge Todd get to the the vending machine. And and they think while they’re doing that, they can also try to get the phones out of the office and so they’re going through the vents. And and like I said, I didn’t think that the movie was particularly scary but that whole sequence in the vents I thought there was some really good suspense there. Did you think so? 

Todd:  Yeah. I I did. And and, you know, even when they’re all trapped and they’re trying to decide what to do and they’re having the arguments about who’s gonna go up there and who’s the smallest, and they all turn to Elijah Wood and its character. And, you know, he kind of admits and I think he has this great line in there. 

Craig:  Me? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. I I definitely don’t do brave stuff.   Look, I’ve never even been camping. I I have a blog. I I get excited about Apple products. That’s what I’m comfortable with. 

Todd:  I think it even turns out that he’s not even the writer that he says he was. He was actually teaching in New York as well, and obviously his writing, which we kind of figured out anyway, his writing is nothing and he’s not really doing anything. But, there’s a little bit of a spat then, but there’s almost like a love triangle between him and this girl and Wade’s character. Because Wade doesn’t really treat her very well either, like, you wouldn’t expect him to. And it’s just like the circumstance there. That that is interesting. It feels, at times, maybe it was just a little thrown in because you had to have some love interest. You had to have that moment, where after going through the vents, and she went up after him.   Lucy went in there as well because things get a little more intense, and they end up trapped together so they can have this this sort of long dialogue to explain a little bit and then kind of have their moment. But the suspenseful scene, I thought, which I’d really never see in a movie before, is when he’s trying to buy, the item out of the vending machine. And, like, we’re always 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  Experiencing at a vending machine, it’s like not taking his dollar. And and, suddenly he hears the zombies coming. So his dollars, like, half stuck in the machine. And so he runs and he hides and you think that he’s okay, but then the machine finally takes the dollar and it the noise of it gets sucked into the machine like attracts the zombie again. I thought, yeah. You know, I’ve seen, like, cats jumping. I’ve seen, like, people accidentally knock some things down. I’ve seen somebody gasp and it it gets the attention of the bad person.   I’ve never seen a vending machine sucking in a dollar before. 

Craig:  Yeah. It was clever. And, like, that’s the thing with with the humor. And I I just think that this movie is is really clever. The the writing is clever, and it’s it’s like, you know, of course, when you’re dealing with zombies, there are certain tropes and rules that you kind of abide by and they they do, for the most part here. But it it doesn’t feel it’s not typical. It’s it’s creative and unique and and I really appreciate that in movies. You know, and it’s it’s independently made.   It wasn’t backed by any big studio or anything. It was only released in a handful of theaters. It didn’t do very well. It went to direct to video, you know, just after a very, very limited engagement. It didn’t get great critical response. It’s I think about 50% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. And I just I it bothers me that these kind of movies that are clever and witty and fresh, that they don’t get more recognition and they don’t get more distribution. Instead, we just get SQL after SQL after SQL and remake after remake when there are people, clearly people out there who are creative and can tell unique and fun stories.   But I guess that’s a little off Todd, a little pet peeve of mine. 

Todd:  Well, I I don’t understand the critical response to this movie Todd be completely honest. You know, I got on in that line and I was reading reviews, and I couldn’t have disagreed more with most of them. I mean, people were saying that they thought it was it got boring or that it was trying to be funny and scary and ended up really being neither, and they felt like it plodded along. And I’m thinking, ‘Did we watch the same movie?’ I mean, was I interested in a really good mood when I saw this? Because I didn’t I just could not agree with most of the criticism. And it bothers me too that this movie just that this is the first I’d heard of it, you know, that this just fell by the wayside Right. When it’s got such a great ensemble cast, and it is so funny. 

Craig:  Well, and it’s it it I guess it’s refreshing to know that there are talented people out there who are willing to work on these projects, probably fully knowing that they’re not going to, you know, be big blockbusters. But they do it because the material’s good. Now you said one of the criticisms was that it got boring. Now I don’t agree with that at all but I think my theory behind that criticism is that the first half hour at least, maybe the first 45 minutes is so funny and the jokes come so quickly that in the last 30 minutes, maybe 45 minutes, it’s almost like they have to move the plot along, so the jokes don’t come as quickly. And I could see where there is kind of a shift in energy. Now I didn’t, I wasn’t bothered by it. I didn’t think it was boring at all. But I I I wasn’t laughing as much.   I was certainly still laughing a lot, but not as much in the first half. And so I can kinda maybe see where that criticism comes from even though I really don’t agree. 

Todd:  Yeah. I mean, your expectations have to be I guess, you’re right. Maybe it sets this expectation you’re gonna be laughing every minute because you are. But, man, at least give the movie some credit that it went there. You know? Give the movie some credit that you did laugh a whole heck of a lot at the beginning. And then when the plot moved along, you know, the plot moved along like it should, and it didn’t seem to take forever. I mean, I felt like the movie was was almost really short. It was it felt like a short movie.   Did it not? I mean, it 

Clip:  wasn’t a 2 hour movie. 

Craig:  Yeah. And it is. 

Todd:  And it is. But it’s, you know, it’s not 60 minutes, but it’s it’s about a good solid hour and a half. No. Right. But that’s a testament, you know? I mean, a good movie’s kinda like a kinda like a good day out, you know? Before you know it, the the evenings come and you gotta go home and you feel a little sad because you were really enjoying yourself, you know. And I felt like that was that was how I experienced this movie. 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I totally agree. And you know, whereas, maybe they pulled back a little bit on the comedy, there’s definitely suspense. Like you were talking about that whole vent scene. There’s a really cool scene where they are in the vents, Clint and, the girl, Lucy. And, they they climbed up into it from the basement, but as they’re crawling through, there’s a vent above, a floor vent and there’s one of those creepy little kids just riding a bike around the vent. And the kid hears them and they just freeze where they are in the vent.   And the kid gets down and looks in and they’re, like, face to face with this zombie. But I don’t know if it’s because they’re not moving or because it’s dark in the vent. She doesn’t see them, but it’s really tense and scary in that moment, just the proximity that they’re so close. And then when they finally end up getting chased through the vents, you know, I again, I wasn’t scared but, you know, I was on the edge of my seat, you know. They’re fleeing. These kids are right on their heels. And so, I thought it was exciting. Anything but boring.   Eventually, I guess, everybody reconvenes in the basement where they’ve also hooked up with this janitor named Hitachi, who is, you know, just kinda your stock Asian character who, you know, whips out some ninja moves, later on. And, they decide that they’re gonna have to get out and they make a plan that they’re gonna arm themselves and that they are just gonna fight their way to Wade’s truck, this big truck, with dual rear wheels, which Wade can’t say and it’s a gag that goes along.   It’s hilarious. You remember how in that movie, commando, and every other eighties action film, there was that suiting up montage? Well, this is that scene. Yeah. Now they’ve got us outnumbered, outgunned, and outnumbered, But there’s one thing we have that they don’t, the drive to win. 

Clip:  They seem very 

Craig:  driven to me. We need to turn this room inside out. Look under every shelf, inside every box, out of anything you or someone else can use. You gotta select everything. You gotta have bats, tools, ropes, and things, anything that has a spike on it, anything that’s serrated. We’re not really into that.   And that’s exactly what they do. And, somebody I I think Doug gets a hockey stick. Rebecca gets these 2 giant cymbals, musical, like, drum set cymbals that she’s gonna fight with. And, Wade arms himself with, like, he straps a pitching machine to his back so that he can just shoot baseballs, at these kids. He says, I’ve played dodgeball with these kids for the past 6 years or whatever. Go for the head. 

Todd:  Yeah. He’s like, go for 

Craig:  the head. 

Clip:  And and 

Craig:  they do. They just   state point. Yeah.   And they just suit up, and, you know, it’s it’s like they’re just kind of this rag tag band of warriors or superheroes or something and they just do. They they fight their way through the halls of the, school. Wade’s shooting kids with the baseballs left and right. They get out into, the the playground where there are just tons of kids and they all come at them and there’s just this really fun, you know, action packed fight scene where they’re just taking these kids down. Doug’s, you know, checking some of them in the head with the the hockey stick and then he’ll, you know, foot sweep some of them and, Rebecca’s got her cymbals and she’s, you know, clapping kids’ heads in the cymbals and using them as, like, flying discs to take kids out. I thought it was a lot of fun. I love that scene. 

Todd:  It was great. It was and again, you get scenes like this in, again, those eighties action movies. This is a parody of it with all this absurdity and, of course, against these kids. But it was fun that they didn’t pull these punches again in the violence toward the kids. And, it’s just so funny that you can’t take it seriously. And even Wade has his moment where he sort of saves the group because he gets beset by the zombies, and they’re all over him. And it’s clearly he’s not gonna make it out, but he’s like, go on. Go on.   Go ahead. Take care of her. He says to, to Clint, you know, kind of wrapping all that love triangle stuff up as he goes down so that you could feel good. It’s it’s so, it’s so much like about 15 or 20 other films that you’ve seen, and they’re obviously playing that up for the comedy. 

Craig:  Like you said, it it’s it’s parody. It’s it’s spoof, but it’s a really fun action sequence. Like, I was excited like, you know, I’m on the edge of my seat with a big smile on my face like, Yeah, get them. It was it was a lot of fun. But like you said, Wade kinda seems to sacrifice himself. 

Todd:  Yeah. And, you know, I think a lot of it is too because we like these characters. You know? We really like these characters. Right. They’re they’re not they’ve really endeared themselves to us over the course of this of the time. And there’s not a one of them that you don’t wanna see survive, I think. You know, there’s not that one all uber jerk that you’re, you know, you’re you’re really gunning to, to get it. And I felt at 

Craig:  the beginning of the movie that Wade would be that guy, and it 

Todd:  turns out he wasn’t that guy at all. They end up going out to, the next town over, and they’re running out of gas. And even there, it’s funny because they’re, it’s Danville and they’re talking about how much they hate Danville. It’s that, it’s that small town, small neighboring town rivalry like Springfield and Shelbyville on the Simpsons or whatever. 

Craig:  You’re right. You do really get involved with these characters and invested in them. And that’s another way that I think the movie kind of subverts your expectations. Because usually in these type of movies where you have an ensemble of protagonists, usually, you slowly watch them get picked off 1 by 1 until there’s only 1 or 2 standing at the end. And pretty much everybody makes it through this. I mean, adults get killed, but there are adults that were only introduced to for a couple of seconds. All of these adults who we have gotten to know and we’ve gotten to see their personalities, they make it. And I like that and it was kind of, unexpected, and and I appreciated it. 

Todd:  Well, they even call attention to it at one point. I remember an earlier scene in The Office when the zombie breaks in and immediately takes out this lady and and and, like, basically runs her into a closet. And they all turn around and they go, who was that? Where did she come from? 

Craig:  Well, they’re there in Danville and they get out of the truck, the truck runs out of gas and, they’re, you know, kind of on the main street or whatever downtown and there’s this big shop window that’s full of TVs and that’s where they see that this has spread, all over the place, you know, different states. So they know it’s not just them. They turn around and there are these zombie kids, Danville kids I guess, all over their truck and they start chasing the zombies start chasing them. And they chase them into what I can only guess was something like, oh, gosh. What are those pizza places called where kids play games and 

Todd:  Oh, yes. You know 

Craig:  what I’m talking about? 

Todd:  Yeah. It was like a tunnel town or something like that. 

Craig:  And, of course, they’re just they figure out that it must have been the chicken nuggets somehow. And Doug says if he could get his hands on some of those chicken nuggets, maybe he can make a vaccine. You know, it’s it’s goofy stuff. But they end up in this this place where it looks like there is a birthday party, or something. And of course, all these kids are now zombies and they’re standing in those big like climbing net things, that almost look like monkey cages or something. And they’re rattling, you know, the the netting like it’s monkey cages and you think that there’s no way out that these people, you know, are are doomed, when come through the wall, backs this van and and out hops Wade, who has, survived and, has followed them there and he rescues them and the stoner Rick is, you know, driving the car and and they drive off. And that’s kind of it. You know, it’s it’s an open ended ending.   It it it almost felt like I can’t imagine that they would have ever thought that this movie would be successful enough to warrant a sequel, But they still left it on that feel like it wasn’t finite, you know. You you don’t know what’s gonna happen. Things don’t just get tied up neatly in a bow and and everything’s okay. They just kinda drive off into the unknown and and that’s where the movie ends. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and it it felt right. It felt fine. It didn’t bother me that it ended that way. And you’re right. I can’t imagine that they thought a sequel would happen. And, I mean, where do you take a sequel from here? You’ve kind of taken a lot of your best gags and used them already. I mean, you’ve you’re in all the places where kids are.   You know? You’ve done the school and the teachers, and you’ve played with that relationship between the kids and their teachers. You’ve gone to the tunnel town, the birthday party, and you’ve see it’s almost set up like an arena. You have to know, like, this is the kids’ domain, that they’ve they’ve they’re in their lair there. And and so I don’t know. Like, you you can’t you can only go so far with this premise before it, loses, a bit of that humor and that edge that you get just from the idea itself. It’s almost like a one idea movie. You know? I mean, don’t you feel that way? Like, how where else can you really go with comedy kids and keep it funny? 

Craig:  Doctor. Right. No, I totally agree. And and I think that that’s fine. You know, I I don’t know. You know, there’s so many different kinds of movies. You know, the big summer blockbusters, you know, they always, set it up so they could potentially be a sequel, and then there usually is. But I really kind of appreciate these movies that probably the creators and producers know that it’s gonna be a one off and that’s alright.   Yeah. You know, we’re seeing that a lot more, in television too with these limited run series. You know, just tell your story and and wrap it up and then the story’s over and and that’s fine. We don’t necessarily need a whole string of sequels to continue the story and, I, you know, I I just think that this movie is really just kind of a diamond in the rough and I I am sad that more people haven’t heard of it And I will be telling people about it. You know? I’m gonna be telling people, you need to see this movie. It’s it’s it’s hilarious and it’s really, you know, it’s a Todd, well made, well acted, well shot film. I I just really liked it. 

Todd:  Well, I think, you know, the movie’s definitely gonna get a boost, from this podcast. There are probably a good 5 or 

Craig:  6 people 

Todd:  that will see this movie that haven’t seen it before. And so that with that, I feel like I’m really doing my part. 

Craig:  Thank you for, listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with, your friends or in your circles on your Facebook page or whatever. We are on iTunes. We’re on Stitcher. You find us on Facebook, on Google Plus. We love to hear from you folks. So if you have any comments, questions, suggestions for movies that we should watch, we would love to hear them. Feel free to join the conversation.   But until next time, I’m Craig 

Todd:  And I’m Todd. 

Craig:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

This forgotten gem is one of the better (and more original) of the summer camp slasher pics. Both of us enjoyed it quite a bit.

The Burning (1981)

Episode 44, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Welcome to another edition of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  Today’s film, we are watching the 1981 horror slasher summer camp movie, The Burning. This is a movie that, again, was out in 1981 and has not really stood the test of time. I think it’s a pretty decent film, but it really hasn’t achieved the notoriety that Friday 13th series, and Halloween, and some of the other slashers did, that came out around this time. Maybe it was more more than anything a victim of unfortunate circumstances. I know that this movie was developed, around the same time that the Friday the 13th movie was being developed, and being developed by none other than Harvey Weinstein, who, you may know as the Weinstein brothers, who founded Miramax. In fact, this is Miramax’s first film. They were really desperate to break into the film industry, saw that, on the success of Halloween and some of these lower budget slasher pictures, that they seemed to make a lot of money, and thought, well, we can make a quick buck, and really break in with a horror movie of our own. And so Harvey Weinstein, basically picked up this urban legend that had been floating around, New York and New Jersey about this, campfire.  It’s like basically a campfire story, I think, that people told about this guy named Cropsey, who would go out and murder campers. And so he got together with a writer. They developed the script, and I think, they started production around a couple weeks, around the time that maybe, production had wrapped on Friday 13th or maybe that Friday 13th had come out. I mean, I think Friday 13th came out in 1980, and this one eventually hit theaters in 1981. And even the makeup artist, Tom Savini, who worked on all the makeup on Friday 13th and all the gore effects, jumped on and did this picture as well. And, apparently, according to him, liked the script for this one better, so he turned down, the offer to work on Friday 13th part 2 just so that he could work on this movie, although he didn’t apparently get as much time to work on this movie because the production was so rushed. Wow, I just did a huge info dump, Craig.

Craig:  No. Yeah. A lot of that stuff that you said, I wasn’t familiar. I didn’t know until, you know, I’m watching the movie and I see, Harvey Weinstein’s name pop up. And, of course, that jumped out to me right away. And then after seeing the movie, I read all that back story that you just said. And I think that you’re absolutely right that, it really just kinda got lost in the shuffle. The early eighties, you know, they Hollywood figured out that these movies were making a lot of money, in the theaters, in drive thrus.  And so after the initial success of Halloween and Friday 13th part 1, there was just kind of a flood of these. And this one, like you said, Tom Savini, who’s an amazing, special effects guy, and has been doing it forever and is still doing it and and is really, really talented. He did pass up, the opportunity to work on, Friday 13th part 2. This movie, The Burning, I I think opened right around the same time as Friday 13th part 2, and they’re shockingly similar in, subject matter, and plot. I mean, they’re they’re really virtually identical in a lot of ways, except for the backstory of the killer. And for whatever reason, you know, maybe it’s just because there was already name, popularity or or recognizability with the Friday 13th, after the success of the first one. This one just didn’t do as well. But arguably, I think that it holds up pretty well.  I mean, it’s not amazing. It’s pretty standard fare as far as, early eighties slashers go. But it’s got some things going for it, that I think make it a worthwhile entry into the genre. One of those things, being Savini’s, effects, which I thought were fantastic.

Todd:  Oh my word. Yeah. You know, I’m watching this, and this is the second time I’d seen this. Had you seen this one before? No. Okay. Yeah. And, you know, I I remembered kind of enjoying it. I remembered feeling kind of blah blah about it.  The second time around, I was really quite shocked actually at the gore effects, that it was as gory, as it is. And I’m not sure if the version that we’re seeing is the more recent kind of uncut version that was released not long after. I’m pretty sure that the MPAA made them make some cuts, shortened up some of the gore scenes and some of the deaths when it came out in the theaters. But it’s it’s pretty brutal as far as that goes. It’s it’s kind of a brutal film, but in some ways, as you said, I think it’s superior to, the Friday 13th movies, You know? And I’m sure we’ll talk about that as we kind of go in. But

Craig:  Yeah. I mean, I would I would certainly put it at least on par. You know, that franchise, Friday 13th went on Todd spawn a bazillion sequels, and I always enjoyed them all. It was one of those things you knew what kind of movie it was gonna be for the most part, and you went into it for the, you know, new ways that Jason was gonna off people. You know, this this movie, like like we said, didn’t do as well. So, any thoughts about a sequel were quickly scrapped. It didn’t do particularly well when it first came out because it opened against some other big horror movies. But, apparently, it did pretty well overseas, especially in Japan.  I think at the time, it was the most profitable, horror movie Japan had ever seen. But yeah, like you said, it’s there’s a lot going for it. And yes, I thought the gore effects were excellent, especially considering, you know, I think that we are a little bit, numbed to Gore these days, especially with the advent of CGI and everything that they can do with that. This was all before that, so everything’s practical. And practical effects just have kind of an air of realism about them that I don’t see in CGI. I know that the the purpose of CGI is to make it look as real as possible, but you can just always kinda tell. There’s kind of an animated feel to it. And this, you can tell that whether it be real flesh or not, you know, something is actually getting stabbed.  You know, the blood looks real, and, I I thought it was good. I was impressed.

Todd:  Yeah. There’s there becomes almost a crudity. I mean, it’s well done. It’s very well done. But, yeah, there’s just that visceral organic, like I said, almost crudity to it that makes it just a little more ew. And and especially if you sort of care about the characters, it’s a little worse. I mean, it hits you a little harder with those practical effects, I think, if they’re done well.

Craig:  Well, and that’s that’s one of the other things that I think that this movie has going for it, Some of those other slasher films didn’t. You know, within the whole canon of Friday 13th, I can maybe remember 1 or 2 characters who I had any sense of feeling about, whether I cared or not, whether they made it through the movie. Usually, it’s just, you know, random horny teenagers and, you know, they get picked off 1 by 1 and you don’t care. You almost kind of celebrate, their deaths. But here, now, I I will say that again, just like with prom night, which we watched and talked about last week, there are so many characters that it’s kind of hard to keep up with all of them. But it’s set in the summer camp, so to have fewer characters, I think may not have come across as genuine. But the characters that are there are likable, you know? And they although many of them look like they’re too old to be at a summer camp, the the the acting is pretty good. And and you I don’t know if I go so far as to say that I cared about the fate of any of these characters, but I viewed them as more than just your stock characters in most cases.  And I’m sure a lot of that has to do, with the cast. I mean, this was, the first movie for Jason Alexander, who went on, of course, to huge fame with, Seinfeld. I didn’t even notice it, but, Holly Hunter is in the movie.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Oscar winner, Holly Hunter. She plays a very small role. I I went to the Internet and did a Google image search and was like, oh, yeah. There she is. That’s her. Mhmm. And then, Fisher Stevens, who I recognized right away, he was kinda big in the eighties. I remembered him from the Short Circuit movies.  He’s in this very, very young, and he’s gone on to a lot of success too. He’s, as a, a documentary filmmaker, he’s he’s won some pretty prestigious awards. So you’ve got some, you know, people who have gone on to prove themselves as being really talented folks. And even some of the other characters, are recognizable faces from the eighties. And it’s really competent casting. And I think that was another thing that the movie had going for it.

Todd:  Yeah. It was. And so even though you have these stock characters, and I would say not all of them are stock characters, but you have a few you know, you have your bully guy. You know? You’ve got Eddie. Well, he’s kind of a bully, kind of a a cool guy. But then you have your girl who’s maybe a little slutty, but not super slut. You know, you can just tell she’s a little more interested in sex. You have Alfred, the sort of dorky guy who just doesn’t really fit in at camp and really doesn’t wanna be there that the other kids pick on.  Glaser is the guy who’s the, who’s the the jerk. But you know, it’s interesting, and I think this is part of what makes it so real, is that they’re still all kind of getting along in ways Right. Like you would at a summer camp. I mean, you don’t just totally turn your back on each other. Even the bully kinda gets in on the fun, and maybe everybody makes fun of him too a little bit, and he just takes it a little bit. I felt like the relationship between the characters was way more real despite the fact that these characters maybe came across as a little too strong and a little too Todd. You got a hint that there’s another side to them, that knows to lighten up or that knows to get serious.

Craig:  Right. Well, and the way that I don’t, you know, I don’t know if it was the writing, the direction, a combination of both, but the interactions between these young people seemed very genuine. You know, the the dialogue was really quick. It was quick witted. There were a lot of scenes where there were a lot of actors in Craig, so there was a lot of stuff going on and it it just seemed very natural, for the most part. Now, of course, this is a low budget eighties horror movie, so there were certainly, some performances that were a little bit subpar and, maybe a little bit over the top in some places. But for the most part, it just seemed like, you know, the direction, the acting, the writing, it came together and really, made this a pretty competent movie. It’s not a bad b movie.  It’s it’s it’s better. It’s better quality than that.

Todd:  Oh, yeah. And you know, the other thing that I really enjoyed about it was not only did I enjoy watching the characters interact with each other, which is honestly a feeling I rarely ever get from a Friday 13th movie.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  Right. Like you said, they’re really just bodies to be picked off. Here, I I thought that the characters seemed real, and I enjoyed watching them interact. But I think that this writing and this script really stays true to the idea of a summer camp. Like, this seems like a real summer camp where real summer camp activities are happening. They’re going on canoe trips, they’re hiking in the woods, they’re all out swimming. Whereas the Friday 13th movies always just feel like a bunch of people hanging out in a cabin at night and slipping away one at the time, You know?

Craig:  Yep. Yep. Absolutely.

Todd:  Most of it happens during the day, and that’s part of what’s kind of cool about it Todd is that whereas it feels like Jason doesn’t really appear until he gets the cover of night, in this instance, Cropsy can appear almost whenever, and a lot of times he just shows up in the middle of the day. And he doesn’t have to show up when it’s one person who slipped away. It could be a whole group of kids who are unfortunate enough to stumble upon him, who are who are suddenly getting attacked. And so it isn’t and, again, it’s not a total copy because they came out around the same time. They’re being developed around the same time. So, you know, it’s not like the wine, you know, Harvey Weinstein looked at Friday 13th and said, I wanna make a movie just like that. He, he had this idea sort of simultaneously. And you know, of course the idea happened to revolve around the summer camp because of this legend.  And so you can tell that it takes just a slightly different take to it, and I feel it’s just a little more authentic presentation of the summer camp experience.

Craig:  Sure. I can I can totally, agree with you on that? And but for the most part, you know, it’s it’s really fairly standard as far as these type of movies go. The only thing that makes it kind of different, I guess, is the backstory of the antagonist. And it’s really not all that unique and it’s been done again since then. In fact, one of our favorite movies that we’ve watched is Final Girls. The killer in that movie, his backstory is drawn from this movie. But basically the premise that we we Todd out, I don’t remember. It just it opens on this like cabin and it says, Camp Blackfoot.  And all of these boys, you know, adolescent teenage boys are conspiring against the caretaker at the camp who apparently is a big jerk. He picks on them, he beats them up. He’s just a bad guy all around and so they’re gonna play a prank on him to scare him and they kind of talk about what they’re going to do and, all these boys are in on it. And so they go to his cabin and, he’s sleeping there and we don’t really know what their plan is. And I didn’t know, you know, did they have some intention of hurting him or is it just a goof? As it turns out, they had just intended it to be like a goof. What they did is they took a very real looking decomposing human skull. I’m not really sure where they got that. But they they had it, like it was it was gross and crawling with bugs and they put candles in the eyes.  And they sat it next to his bed, and then they all went around to his bedroom window and they they tapped on the window and got his attention until he saw it. And when he saw it, it had the effect that they hoped for. It scared him badly, but he knocked it off, and the candles ignited his, bed clothes and his clothes and he burned. You know, it’s a great practical effect. You know, this was a real stunt man you see in full flame, running out of the cabin and and screaming and flailing about, and eventually he falls into the lake. And then we cut, to the hospital and it says, 1 week later, and there’s a goofy scene where an orderly is talking to a prospective doctor and wants to show him this, you know, horribly burned guy who’s really not even human anymore. He’s just a monster. And and that’s kinda goofy, I thought.

Todd:  I he really, really wants to show him this burn victim. He’s

Craig:  Yeah. He really plays it up.

Todd:  Dragging the doctors down the hall and into the room and forcing him to look at this guy.

Craig:  Well, and it’s so, you know, it reads as so false. You know, like it’s completely unprofessional, completely, you know, just non sympathetic. I thought it read as kind of goofy but you know, we get a good jump scare where the burned hand reaches out and grabs him and you know, the burns look good. Good job Todd Savini. And then we cut to 5 years later where we see, we’re we’re still in the hospital and, he’s being released and we just kind of hear, kind of, you know, an audio over what we’re seeing. The doctors and nurses talking to him, you know, We’re sorry the skin grafts didn’t take. I know you still resent those kids but try not to place blame. It was just an accident.  And they let him go. And of course, you know, from then we get a little vignette where he goes and, gets a hooker. He’s dressed, you know, head to toe, covered up, and he goes and gets this hooker and takes, her up to her room. When she sees him in a flash of lightning, she freaks out and he grabs a big pair of shears, and stabs her. And that’s the first big practical effects that we get. He stabs her right in the gut and it’s not a quick thing. Like, you see him, like, digging around in there and the blood is coming out and it looks, you know, for the few brief moments that we see it, it’s very gory and it looks pretty darn real. And so I knew at that point, they weren’t gonna be holding back on the gore, and I was excited.  You know, that’s that’s exciting that they weren’t pulling any punches there.

Todd:  Yeah. That was a pretty brutal scene. I guess it really sets up this brutality, this guy. And, you know, the one thing it also does is it makes it abundantly clear who the killer is. You know? Right. You never wonder for a minute through this movie, well, are they gonna pull one on us? Is it gonna be like the Friday 13th, you know, part 1 where it turns out that Right. Who thought that the killer is not the killer. No.  This really is the guy, through and throughout. So you that that question’s really out of your mind and it’s not even a concern of the script which just allows them to focus on these kids and are they gonna make it, and and is he gonna get away with it, you know, that sort of thing.

Craig:  Right. And then it cuts to a new camp, camp Stonewater, which confused me. I thought surely we would be going back to the same camp. As it turns out, I guess that other camp burned down or something, and so this camp is nearby. And then we just get really quite a long sequence of being introduced to these characters and establishing their personalities. And you know, there’s a whole lot of them. I don’t think there’s really a whole lot of sense in in detailing who they all are, but, Michelle seems to be the lead girl counselor and Todd seems to be the main guy counselor. And then I really was never clear.  Were some of those younger folks, were were they all campers, or were some of them counselors? I I was a little confused there.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s a little muddied. I agree. Because as you said earlier, you have these situations where there are older people playing, you know, much younger than they really are. However, there are really young people there playing young people, but then there’s a point at which, they’re all sitting and eating, and there’s an announcement where the older folks are to go on a on a canoeing trip. And so you know that there’s a variety of ages here at the camp, and so that’s even more confusing. I think Todd and Michelle are the 2 counselors and that everybody else is supposed to be a camper.

Craig:  Well, that would make sense.

Todd:  I think so. Although, I would not go on record and bet my life on that. Right. But they’re the ones who seem to be in charge throughout the whole thing. They’re the ones who are kind of doling out the the punishments or the, now you guys, you know, you better behave. You know, Dave, Jason, now Zay.

Craig:  Well, then they do I mean, they look age appropriate. They look like they would be the appropriate age to be adult camp counselors. Mhmm. But some of the people who are their campers, I guess, look probably their age, you know, at least if not, maybe even a little bit older. But it doesn’t really matter. You know, if I had any criticism, well, I might have more than 1. But one criticism that I would have of the movie is, that this part dragged a little bit for me. Not that it was uninteresting and not, you know, it’s just kind of kooky camp stuff going on.  They’re playing tricks on one another. You know, we’re establishing their relationships. You know, there’s Jason Alexander is really pretty funny. You know, he’s kind of the clown of the group. And so it’s not like I was bored to death. But for a while, I was thinking, you know, okay, let’s get to let’s get to the to the killings. And and and really, you don’t get except for the prostitute, early on in the movie, it really takes quite a while before the next kill. You know, it’s really almost 45 minutes to an hour into the movie before the bloodbath really starts.

Todd:  You’re right. And that is, maybe I I agree. I would I would criticize that a little bit. Although, I think in the end, it does make it so that you do care about these characters a little bit more. At least I did that, you know, that’s one note that I made as I was watching this. I was like, wow. These these characters, I actually seem to care, when they die. But some of the acting is is stiff and distracting, like Todd, the counselor.  Oh my gosh. He’s terrible. His line delivery is so stiff, in this, and Kim and Karen’s relationship. And I guess they’re supposed to have a kind of relationship. At least Todd develops a little later that

Craig:  Michelle, you mean. Right?

Todd:  Michelle. Yeah. Michelle. But they’re friendly with each other. And we get we get some, you know, some, I would say, sort of jump scares or some hints that that things are are gonna be going bad, but they never do materialize. Like, oh, they’re you know, early on, they’re all playing baseball, and 1 girl runs into the woods to retrieve the ball. And we see the killer, and it it he’s almost stabs her, but she grabs the ball and runs out in time and never notices. And there’s another scene where Sally, who’s supposed to be and again, she’s not really the slutty girl.  Maybe she’s just the more willing girl, I guess, in this Right. Right. Right. Cute one, where she’s in the shower and and you think she’s getting stalked and she’s gonna get killed, but it turns out to be Alfred, you know, who, is just trying to scare her. But see, to me, those scenes aren’t as boring because, okay, so you get the build up, you think they’re gonna get killed, but it’s not like, oh, it’s the cat and the cat runs off and everything’s fine. It’s like, oh, it’s Alfred. And, well, what’s Alfred doing there? And Alfred gets pulled to something. He gets chewed out by Todd, and Todd’s like, what were you doing there? And Alfred’s like, you know, I don’t like being at this camp.  I hate being at this camp. And Todd’s like, I know how you feel. You know, back when I was a camper 5 years ago, I felt the same way. And so you get some really interesting story and character development built into that. And so I didn’t find it quite as boring, although I’m with you. I was ready for The Killings to to kinda start.

Craig:  Right. I agree. I mean, you know, they made the choice to establish these characters, and I don’t think that it was a poor choice. It’s it’s, I it’s me being lazy. It’s not them being lazy. It’s, you know, it’s me it’s me having an expectation of what these movies are and then this kind of subverts that just a little bit, just a tiny bit. And, yeah, like you said, we do get to know the characters and I do appreciate that. And there is some suspense and we know that Cropsie is there even though they don’t, because we keep getting all these POV shots from him.  I read that initially they had filmed and had planned to show, Cropsey a lot more. But they decided that it was better tonally if you didn’t see him but rather saw through his perspective. And every time we see the p you know, it’s it’s pretty standard POV stuff, you know, killer POV except for that it’s kind of fuzzy around the edges which I thought was kind of an interesting way of indicating that maybe his vision had been impaired from his injuries too. Yeah. And so I looked up how they did that, and it’s so funny that they just smeared Vaseline around the camera lens. Makes perfect sense. And it it works fine. The one thing, you know, before we start getting to like you said, eventually, they go off on, a, canoe trip, and and that’s really when things start to happen.  The one one other criticism that I will make, of the movie is you talked about the relationships and them feeling pretty real and and, you know, the different characters. I’m sure that this is a period, you know, this has to do with the time period that it was made in, the early eighties. Most of the guys in the movie seemed pretty rapey. Like, it it made me a little bit uncomfortable. Like even just, you know, like you said, Alfred kind of peeps at that girl in the shower. And then he’s like, I was just trying to scare her. Okay. Well, that’s kinda weird.  And then the girls talk about the boys and how the boys are kind of pressuring them, and they don’t know if they want Todd, and maybe they want to, but they’re not sure, blah blah blah. But then there are there’s more than one, like, sex or near sex scene that made me really uncomfortable because the girls were really, you know, kind of trying to hold the guys off and the guys are being really aggressive. Yes. To the point that it made me thins off the guy that she’s interested in, Eddie. And and when she when she won’t have sex with him, he’s really nasty to her. And that kind of leads to an important plot point, but just, you know, really masochistic and kind of gross. And then there’s other characters, Glazer and his girlfriend Sally who we said is the kind of slutty not slutty one. Apparently they haven’t consummated their relationship.  At one point on this canoe trip they do and you I don’t know. It it it kinda made my skin crawl, a I don’t know. It it it kinda made my skin Craig, a little bit. Did you pick up on that or was I just being weird?

Todd:  Oh, no. You’re right. But, you know, I thought that was kinda strong. A good a good point of the movie and, you know, like, we talked about prom night, last week, and I mentioned the one sex scene in there. Maybe just because it was so awkwardly filmed and maybe unintentionally, pretty captured, the awkward teenage sex. In this, in this case, I felt like, you added to the realism of this movie where these people are just not horny jumping all over each other, and having sex and that’s it. But the guys are a little aggressive, and the girls are responding to that in a way that girls might. Yeah.  It’s a little uncomfortable, but also it feels a little more real. You’re right. That sex scene between Glazer and Sally is very uncomfortable because she is clearly not really enjoying it even though she kinda wanted it, but you know there was a build up to it where she was even trying to convince herself whether or not she wanted it. And then when it does happen, you know, he’s like, it’s kind of over too quick and she’s a little disappointed, but then she’s like, well, that’s okay. And he just comes across, yeah, as a little gross in that. But but to me, it it yeah. He would. I mean, to me, that seemed that seemed kind of kind of true to life.  Not everybody’s circumstance, but

Craig:  true

Todd:  to a possible real life circumstance that you don’t normally see in a movie like this, which is pop off, have sex, get killed.

Craig:  Yeah. I I guess that’s fair. It just kind of made my skin crawl a little bit. I’m willing to get over it. You know, it’s such a small part of the movie that, it it’s not something that I’m gonna be concerning myself with as I lay in bed tonight or anything, but, just a little odd. And if I again, you know, it’s the early eighties. Times have changed. I don’t especially, I I don’t think a female audience would necessarily appreciate that today.  But anyway, we can move on.

Todd:  Well well, just a sec, Craig. Although, don’t you feel like the girls kinda held their own? I mean, it was rapey, but the girls in some ways, could kinda stand up to it? Or or is that going to be Yeah. Do you think maybe

Craig:  No. No. No. No. I can I I can see that, And I’m sure, of course, I can’t speak from experience, but I’m sure that many women have been in uncomfortable situations like that and, you know, would probably respond hopefully in a similar way? It’s just, you know, like I said, you don’t really see anything in the actual sex scene, but you hear it and like like you said, it didn’t sound like she was particularly enjoying it. To me, it almost sounded like she was in pain. And, like, I understand biology. Don’t have to get into all that, but, I don’t know.  It was it just unsettled me. That’s all.

Todd:  It’s not it’s not titillating. It’s definitely not titillating

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  Kind of sex. Yeah. You’re right. And that’s, you know, that’s very true. And to me, again, that’s a real strong point of the film, but you’re right. It does make your skin Craig, and I did it had the same effect on me that it had on you.

Craig:  Well, I mean, that that basically leads us to our first kill, that you win, Eddie and Karen. He convinces her to go skinny dipping and there’s plenty, you know, as is typical with these types of movies, there’s multiple boob shots and there’s, you know, butt shots of both men and women. So if that’s something that you’re looking for in these types of movies, you’re gonna get that from this. But, while they were skinny dipping, Cropsey took her clothes and kind of threw them in the trees and whatnot. And as she’s going around collecting her clothes, he comes up behind her and slits her throat with his weapon of choice, which is like the garden shears. And and from then from then, it’s pretty typical fair for with a couple of exceptions, but pretty typical fair for, these types of movies with people just kind of getting picked off, and in relatively creative ways. You know, he he always uses his, shears, but not every death is the same. You know, I felt like prom night was kind of boring and repetitive, not very creative.  Here, you know, the deaths were different. The effects were good. The practical effects were great. But for the most part, it’s pretty standard as far as slasher flick goes.

Todd:  Yeah. And, you know, just going back to that Karen death for a second, I thought it was it was pretty brutal, not just in, of course, the effects, but also this poor girl. I mean, yeah, She was kind of, you know, she was kind really interested in this guy and really wanted to make something meaningful out of it. It was, you know, we really got quite a bit of build up as to whether or not she’s gonna have sex and whether or not this guy is a slimeball, whether or not he really likes her. And he has kind of a sweet moments with her where he’s Right. Coaxing her in, but you don’t get the sense that he’s really gonna gonna be horrible. And then when she gets in the water and she doesn’t wanna go through with it, he’s like you said, he’s very nasty to her. And so she’s naked and she’s humiliated, And then when she gets out of the water, what does she have to do? But her clothes are like strewn through the woods, and so she’s got to, you know, walk crying through the woods, you know, taking her clothes back.  And then she gets killed. I mean, I felt so bad for her. Again, there’s just one way that this movie, affected me in ways that, like, again, the your the other movies that are so much like it don’t tend to do. And so, yeah, I mean that I don’t know. Did you feel the same way or I don’t know. I just

Craig:  I did. Yeah. I felt for her and like even with the guy, even with Eddie, you know, I think it’s a testament to the writing that these characters aren’t just completely stock. There may be stock elements about them but they have shades of character too. You know, for the most part, Eddie’s a fun guy. People like him. People get along with him. And like you said, with her, there are moments where he’s really kind of sweet with her And then there are moments where he’s a big jerk.  And I guess that’s probably more true to life, than just only having one defining, character, personality Craig or whatever. Yeah. So, yeah, I I agree with you that it’s strong in that regard.

Todd:  And at some point in this canoe trip, it has to be said there’s a there’s a campfire story, that Todd tells them. And this is when if you if you didn’t if you really didn’t see it coming before, you do piece together the fact that Todd, is one of the guys, early on who back at camp Blackfoot, was in the group who played this trick on Cropsey. So the story he’s telling is an embellishment of his actual experience in the past, where he goes on to say that Craig they never found the Todd, and that Cropsey still lives in the woods, and, that he is picks on unsuspecting campers. And then I think that’s when I think it’s Eddie comes in on cue with a knife and a Right. Right. Mask and scares them all. But it really sets this up slightly differently from the other films and that it it really creates this campfire story vibe that they were going through. You know, they base this on this legend.  And so it puts that legend up right front and center and tells it to the to the group. So the when the killings do start happening, they’re not suspecting each other, but they are indeed suspecting, you know, this cropsey character, this legend come to life. And and I think that’s

Craig:  And I liked the feel. Mhmm. I liked the feel of the campfire story. However, I I had already put it together that he was one of those boys because when because when he was talking to Alfred before, and said, yeah, 5 years ago, and I didn’t just get in trouble. I got sent home. So and we knew it was 5 years ago that this happened so I figured that out. And the tonally, you know, the the campfire story, you know, again, it’s very typical of the kind of legends that you would hear around a campfire. I thought that worked really well, but it kind of made him seem a little insensitive.  Yeah.

Todd:  You know, right.

Craig:  You you burned this guy, almost to death, accidentally, of course, but nonetheless, and now you’re using that story as fodder for your campfire tales. Yeah. I don’t know. I thought that was a lot.

Todd:  No. I agree with you. And really, it carries through the whole movie where this this guy who’s really responsible for Cropsey, doesn’t seem to take any personal responsibility or show any feeling of guilt toward the fact that

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  He himself in in a way is indirectly responsible for his, his campers getting murdered. That doesn’t come through. And and man, if it had, you know, this would be a really interesting movie, You know? Right. I mean, if there was some guilt on his in his part and some feeling that, that he started this, it would certainly make the killer more sympathetic. It would really, make a little more make a little more of a complicated relationship and, change his motivations quite a bit. Unfortunately, it doesn’t really go down well, it doesn’t at all, go down that path.

Craig:  Yeah. I agree. It could have been a little bit more complex. But it’s already, as far as character is concerned, it’s already more complex than most of these movies. So I guess we shouldn’t complain too much. After, you know, after that death, then comes, I think, the scene that really makes this movie stand out, against others. Like you said, a lot of it happens during the day. Even the night scenes, you can tell they were shooting day for night, almost all of them.  But a lot of it happens during the day. When they when they wake up the next morning and they realize that Karen has never come back, they confront, Eddie and he says, Yeah. Well, you know, maybe things didn’t go so well or something. And, she had told Karen had told Michelle before they even left that she was nervous about going on the trip. And the only reason that she would go on the trip was because the senior she’s gone, they assume that she’s gone back, and that is, she’s gone, they assume that she’s gone back and that is, they feel that that’s confirmed when they find that the canoes are gone. They assume that she took one and that she must have just accidentally, untied them all. So they build this raft to send some people back to camp. And, you know, they build this perfectly watertight raft that, like, 6 people can go on.  And and they set out How many were on the raft? Like 5, you think? A couple guys like 5 year old I think? Doctor.

Todd:  Yeah. 5 or 6 are on the raft. Yeah.

Craig:  It is the middle of the day, and a couple of the are pretty prominent characters like, Woodstock who’s the Fisher Stevens, guy that I mentioned before, and Eddie, You know, these have been relatively central characters and then several girls who were more minor. But they go out and they see one of their canoes, and I knew something was gonna happen because there was a lot of build up to them rowing to the canoe. I kind of thought that they were gonna find Karen’s body in there. And the reason that I thought that was because surely, Cropsey’s not in there because how in the middle of the day, in the middle of a lake is he going to attack an entire raft full of kids? But that’s exactly what happens. It is him, and he jumps up out of the boat, and he just slaughters this whole raft full of kids with great, gory effects. And, I I just really didn’t see that coming. And I thought that was my favorite part of the movie.

Todd:  Well, it’s a pretty bold choice. And and you’re right. And I don’t even think the filmmakers had an idea of how he could do it because you don’t really get a sense of exactly how he did it. You see No. Spring up out of the raft and then all these close-up shots of these kids getting hacked. But there in the back of my mind, I’m trying to piece together, like, did he jump out of the canoe onto the raft? How did he pull that off? How did he get to them so fast from that that, you know, across the, the 2 floating things? I don’t know. It just, it’s, it’s something that if you think about it too hard, it doesn’t, quite fit except for the fact that they’re all just completely surprised and completely helpless, that this guy could do it. But there, he slaughters all those people and you were not expecting it.  In the middle of the day, this whole group of people just get murdered and it’s brutal and it’s fun.

Craig:  Well, and they’re kids Todd. I mean, that’s the other thing that, Friday 13th kinda stayed away from, you know. It was always the counselors. In most of those movies, the kids weren’t even there. I think there was only of the movies where the kids were even present. So Todd see and again, these actors looked older, so it doesn’t look like little children getting slaughtered, but they’re meant to be kids, and a lot of times in horror movies, kids are pretty safe, but not here. And I really liked, you know, like you said, it’s shot in such a way that it’s very choppy so you don’t get a good look at what’s going on which you couldn’t because there really would be no practical way that that could all go down. But it’s such a great opportunity for just some quick shots of some really great effects like, oh what’s his name, Woodstock, gets his fingers all chopped off, right in front of his face and the blood shoots out and just just cool imagery, and and it was a little bit unexpected and and that to me was something that made this kind of stand out from any of those others.  I don’t think that I’ve ever seen a quick group slaughter like that in any of those other movies.

Todd:  Yeah. It it it just comes right out of left field, and, and it you’re right. It really makes the film, and it ups the ante considerably. You’re like, man, what can’t this guy do? Because you know he’s not supernatural, or at least you don’t ever suspect that. You know he’s a guy, and he’s a disfigured guy at that, who obviously has a little trouble seeing. But he’s he is a massive threat, and it doesn’t matter if they’re together. It’s this isn’t gonna be a movie where people have to wander off alone into the woods before they’re vulnerable. Here they are vulnerable on a raft in the middle of a lake in a large group.

Craig:  So Yeah. And and and then after that, there’s one more small kill life. Well, not small, I guess, but, there’s that sex scene between Glazer and Sally that we’ve already talked about. We don’t need to talk about it anymore. But after that’s gone, Glazer goes back to get some matches to make a fire. And while he’s gone, Sally gets killed. You know what? We don’t really see her death on screen. It’s just more implied.  And then Glaser comes back, and Alfred follows him because Alfred kinda has it out for Glaser for some reason. But as soon as Glaser gets back, he gets killed also, and Alfred sees, and he runs back to tell, Todd, the the main counselor. And Todd doesn’t believe him at first, but he follows him back to where the bodies are. And when he sees the bodies, of course, then he knows something’s going on. Cropsy knocks him out with his his shears and and takes off chasing after Alfred. Meanwhile, all the rest of the campers are on the beach, and they see the raft float back. And they, you know, they think that the other kids are playing a joke. So Michelle swims out there to see what’s going on, and she finds all this carnage.  And that really, that that leads into, I guess, what you would have to consider the climax. Because now everybody knows that somebody’s after them. Several of them are already dead. And so, Michelle takes most of the young count or campers back on the raft. They start rowing back, towards towards camp. But Todd stays behind because Alfred is still out in the woods, and I guess he has to find him before they can head back. And that’s really what kinda leads to the final showdown.

Todd:  That’s right. I mean, obviously, he’s only one guy, so he can only follow 1 group or 1 person, and he’s decided to hone in on Alfred. For reasons I’m not absolutely clear on, but maybe it’s just because Alfred was there and and he was there and so he’s the next guy for him to chase. So, and they chase him through the woods and they come across kind of a, it’s like a ruined building, that they’re running around in. I thought this scene was pretty effective in that there are lots of corners he has to go around. And there are times when he’s running, there are times when he’s slowly moving. There are lots of shots from different angles, and you never quite know if and when this killer is going to jump out, but he does. He reaches around one of those corners and grabs him, but he doesn’t kill him.  He drags him away, and you get the sense that he’s luring Todd. Right. And he uses Alfred as a lure. So we get these shots of Todd running through the woods with his ax, looking for Alfred, and he ends up in this ruined building and walks through this door after he hears some yelling and is in what seems to be, like a like a mining, like a coal mining building or something.

Craig:  Well, that’s what it really was. It was an abandoned it was an abandoned copper mine. When they had scripted it, they had scripted it first to happen in a boathouse at the camp. But the boathouse location that they were gonna use, they found out was infested with bats, and they didn’t think it was safe. So then they changed it to a cave. But, I and and I read different, things about this. The story was a little bit vague, but, one of the things that I read said that the the cave that they scouted ended up collapsing, the day after that they they had scouted it. So they just found this location, which literally was an abandoned copper mine and they just used it.  And it seems like it’s it’s a cool set piece, but I, you know, I wrote down in my notes, where did these ruins come from? Are we supposed to know what these are? I didn’t know if it was supposed to be like the old camp. But it was just somewhere cool for the last thing to go down.

Todd:  Yeah. You’re you’re you’re expecting some significance here, you know, like the climax in a place that’s familiar to the killer or where he hangs out or something like that. And this just was just a cool set piece. And it was cool, and you know, this movie is pretty well filmed, I think, for what it is. It’s got lots of great lighting and the, you know, the the dust kind of kicking around, the beams of light going around. And, but this sequence is really almost kind of dreamy in a sense that Mhmm. You cut between Alfred tied up somewhere. We never get a sense of the layout of this place.  We don’t know how close Todd is at any given time to Alfred or if he’s ever making any progress on finding him. Then you have Todd who’s walking around here looking around, but can’t hear Alfred. Alfred’s parents supposed to be struggling, but only every now and then does he hear him. And then you get these shots of the killer where he still aren’t seeing his face, but now he has a flamethrower. Where did that come? Yeah. Right.

Craig:  I was like, what? Where did he get a flamethrower?

Todd:  Well, it is fire. But, okay.

Craig:  You know, his his accident was fire, so his final weapon’s gonna be fire. Alright.

Todd:  Yeah. And it’s it’s it’s kind of artistic in a way where it cuts between these three, and you’re not sure if the killer is is chasing Todd or if he’s within Todd’s line of sight and Todd is hiding from him. You really have no idea, but you’re seeing all these images flash by and even the music gets a little dreamy and weird, and then the killer like turns off his flamethrower. And so that’s not in the picture for a little while. And voices are going in Todd’s head that are harkening back to, the prank that they pulled. And I think that filmmakers are just trying to hammer through to you. Hey, it’s all coming full circle now. This is the guy that he’s getting revenge on, but it comes across.  There were moments here where I was even wondering like, is, was Todd knocked out and is he dreaming some of this or is some of this going on in his head just because of the way it was shot and the way it, you know, it plays out on camera? There are even flashes. I think when the killer does grab Todd and knock him down, you we get these quick cuts to some of the earlier kills that are just sort of thrown in there. It’s really an interesting way of putting together this. What ultimately turns out, I think, to be kind of a lackluster final battle. At least the the build up to it, you know, is is really kind of artistic and unique.

Craig:  I agree. And without it, I do think that you’re right that it would have seemed kind of anticlimactic because they just they fight for a little bit. And it’s unclear how they’re even fighting because the way it’s shot, it’s not like it’s we’re watching it in full frame. It’s just kind of cutting back and forth between the different characters. And you know, Todd is fighting with an axe, which under most circumstances would be an excellent weapon. However, the guy that he’s fighting has a flamethrower. Like, how how does the ax go against the flamethrower? I don’t know. But they’re going back and forth.  Eventually, Alfred frees himself, and Alfred stabs Cropsy, what looked to me like in the back of the neck, with his own weapon, his own, his shears.

Todd:  Yes.

Craig:  Doctor. And of course then, Oh, he’s dead. We’re fine. We can leave now. And of course, you and I, having seen these movies a bazillion times, know he’s not dead. He has to come back at least once, which he does. And I believe, I don’t remember, one of them gets his flamethrower and sets him on fire again. Do you remember which one it was? I don’t remember.

Todd:  Oh, no. I don’t. I I wanna say

Craig:  Doesn’t really matter.

Todd:  Well, I wanna say it was Alfred who did it, which doesn’t seem right. It’s it sort of seems like poetically, like, Todd should be the one to finish what he started. But I only say that because

Craig:  I well, I’ve got it. Sorry. I’ve got it in my notes. Todd gets him in the head with an axe and then Alfred sets him on fire.

Todd:  That’s right. Yeah. Because Todd has to be the one to swing the axe, so he couldn’t be doing both. Right. And he axes him, and that’s pretty gross. Axes him against an upright pole. And you get this final image of him as the camera pulls out of him burning and he’s on this upright pole in And I don’t know if this was intentional or if it was just me reading into it a little bit, but with the scissors sticking out of the back of his neck and the axe sticking out the front and those flames going, he it almost looked like a flaming cross as it was pulling away. Did you get that, or was that just?

Craig:  No? I mean, I don’t think you’re reading too much into it necessarily because they clearly liked the image, you know, it lingered on that image and the burning for a long time. I don’t know if that was just, you know, for the symbolic relevance of the flames or or whatever. I actually thought that maybe that was going to be their opportunity for a sequel. Like maybe we were gonna see him move or maybe the roof was gonna collapse because it was burning this, thing, so we would never really find him or we wouldn’t really know if he was dead or not. But we really don’t get that. Just Michelle and the police show up at the same time, of course, right past the nick of time. And that’s the end of their story. But then I thought that it was really clever that right after that, it immediately cuts to a new group of campers, not only telling the Cropsy story, but it’s it seems suggested to me that everything that we had seen in the movie had become part of the lore and had continued to be passed down, you know, through these campfire stories.  And I thought that was, clever.

Todd:  Yeah. I actually thought that was almost a little creepy the way that, he he almost seemed the way that it’s shot, of this person who we don’t know, you know, because he’s a new group of campers talking at the behind the campfire to a new group. It almost feels like he’s talking to you and he’s telling you the story, and it just has that cyclical nature to it that I’ve and and his final words, beware he’s coming for you. And it’s just said Right.

Craig:  And it’s exactly

Todd:  it Go ahead.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. It’s and he’s looking he’s looking right at you. You know, like he’s staring directly into the camera, and it’s a nice quick little jumpy scare right there at the end. But what I liked most about that was not only is this new guy who we don’t know, not only is he telling the story, but he’s telling it almost verbatim the same way that Todd had told it earlier. So you really get a sense that this is, you know, a well known legend. And I don’t know if I think this or not, but I thought that it kinda left it up to interpretation. Did the events of this movie that we just watched, are we supposed to believe that they really happened? Or is this just were we just told that the the story as a camper would be told it? And I don’t know, whether that was what their intention was or that they just kinda wanted to leave you wondering, but I I liked it, and I thought it was effective, and it kinda left me thinking more than your typical slasher would.

Todd:  Oh, yeah. And it’s way better and way more poetic than one of these, you know, at the end where the killer’s twitched, or we’d ever found his body, or there’s one of those tacked on scenes where despite all logic, suddenly the killer leaps out of the lake or, you know, the killer comes in through a mirror and someone or is it someone’s dream or something. You’re right. In a way, it could have set it up for a sequel, and that we could walk away with that feeling that this is just a legend that’s going to be told multiple times in multiple ways, but it’s not bald and on its face about it. And honestly, I don’t think they were setting up for a sequel. Sadly, maybe they I don’t think it was in their heads, you know, or if it was, how they were planning it just sort of escaped me. But it makes it a really nice standalone movie. And again, that’s unique to this genre.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah.

Todd:  You know?

Craig:  And like I said, it didn’t do particularly well in part because it was up against Friday 13th part 2, and because they were so similar, and there were other horror movies that opened around the same time that were doing well. And and it didn’t do as far as the critics weren’t particularly kind to it then. Since then, it has really kind of developed this cult following, and it’s it’s, a 100% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. So there are clearly fans out there who still appreciate it for what it is. The critics seemed to maybe have reevaluated their initial, response, and it’s it’s gotten better critical, response now. It’s it’s worth a watch. I mean, if if you are I’m really surprised I hadn’t seen it. I I guess it’s just because it it I don’t remember it playing on TV when we were kids.  I vaguely remember the box art because it was pretty good at the store, but I just never heard much buzz about it or anything. And and so I today was the first time I’d ever gotten around to watching it. And, you know, I I think it still stands up pretty well. I would certainly rank it above prom night which may have even more name recognition. But I I wasn’t I was disappointed in prom night. I wasn’t disappointed with this. I didn’t think it was a masterpiece, but I thought that it was a really competent slasher movie.

Todd:  Yeah. I agree. I put myself firmly in that camp of, I think I would personally and I’m I’m maybe way more critical of the Friday 13th movies than you are. And I mean, not to say you’re not critical of them, but to say that I don’t think I enjoyed them as much as you do. And this movie, I definitely enjoy, even though it’s in that same camp. It just has enough of that spirit. It has enough of that extra. It has a unique enough spin on it that even though it is a bunch of kids getting slaughtered in a camp, it just feels like a better movie to me.  I just I like spending time with the characters. I like imagining myself doing some of the things that they’re doing at the camp, you know, minus the getting killed part. Right. And and the rapiness. Like, yeah. Right. So so, yeah, it’s it’s kind of a I really enjoy watching, and the gore effects just do not disappoint at all if you’re into that greed. It doesn’t come across as super cheap and, crappy in that arena.  You know, another thing that’s worth mentioning that we didn’t even touch on is, a name that if you’re familiar with classic rock that pops up in the credits, Rick Wakeman, did the music and Rick Wakeman is, with Yes, the progressive rock band, from the seventies. And and it’s you know, I can’t really say that it’s a super memorable score, unfortunately, but it has its moments where all I was thinking was, you know, if this score was not a bunch of synthesizers doing this, it might be pretty good. You know? If if we have Well,

Craig:  I guess there was a little bit, and and it may just be, you know, cult followers of the movie, but they released a soundtrack at one point, and it Todd. I I think it’s out of print now. But, yeah. I mean, it wasn’t something that was just slopped together. You know, this was an actual musician writing stuff specifically for this movie. And it is. You you do notice. You notice that the quality is better than some of the stock stuff that you typically get, particularly in low budget stuff.

Todd:  Yeah. And and it just is a testament to this odd little confluence of people who, as you said earlier, many of them went on to do much bigger and better things and be way more successful. And here’s this little movie that they all kind of owe their roots to, that very few people really hear about or see anymore. It’s Right. It’s a bit of a gem, I think.

Craig:  I think so Todd. And I would recommend it to any horror enthusiast. I think I don’t think they’d be disappointed.

Todd:  Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. Anybody can download it for free on iTunes or Stitcher. We have a Facebook page. We have a Google plus page. Please like it. Please share that, and get on there and become part of the conversation. Let us know what you enjoy.  Let us know what you wanna see us review in the future. And until that future, this has been Todd And Craig. With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Whoa boy, did we enjoy deconstructing this terribly boring flick that, nevertheless, stars primo scream queen Jamie Lee Curtis – and a very brief appearance by Leslie Nielsen. Add in a lame disco dance sequence and you have a thoroughly forgettable outing that is best experienced in the background – when you have more important things to be doing in the foreground.

Prom Night (1980)

Episode 43, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Welcome to another edition of 2 Guys and a chainsaw. I'm Todd.

Craig:  And I'm Craig.

Todd:  Today's film was the 1980 movie Prom Night, starring Jamie Lee Curtis, and, just coming off fresh off of Halloween, in fact. And, Leslie Nielsen, who even though he's, one of the top billed in here, doesn't get a lot of screen time, does he?

Craig:  No. I noticed that. You know, I didn't even realize that he was in the movie until the credits, the opening credits started rolling. And then, yeah, he wasn't really given a whole lot to do. In fact, you know, I I'm sure we'll get to this eventually, but it almost kinda seems like he disappears about two-thirds of the way through the movie. And, you don't really see much of him after that.

Todd:  Yeah. It's like he kinda quit, or he had something better to do. Correct. I wanna go do Naked Gun or something funnier. Well, you know, the movie starts out like, sort of like an after school special, I thought. I don't know how you felt about it.

Craig:  I felt the exact same way. It felt like, it it felt low budget. And and not so much in the cinematography. I mean, I guess a little bit. But, even just the opening credits, they they were really basic, really simple. It seemed like, something that you would have seen at the beginning of a made for TV movie or, like you said, an after school special. Yeah. I totally felt the same way.

Todd:  It's a bunch of kids, and my gosh, there are a ton of characters in this movie. Yeah. And we really don't even know who the kids are. They're kinda calling each other names here, but we later find out there's Jude, who's a girl. There's Kelly, Nick, and Wendy.

Craig:  It opens up. It's showing this, it'll I couldn't figure out what it was. You know, I I read, I think I it said on Wikipedia, it was supposed to be like an abandoned convent. It really doesn't matter. It's just this old abandoned building where those 4 kids that you mentioned, Jude, Kelly, Nick, and Wendy are playing this game that seems to be called killers or or something like that. Yeah. Not the

Todd:  obvious way to start the movie at all.

Craig:  Right. I mean, it it seemed very it seemed like the basic premise was like ghost in the graveyard or or something like that that you play when you're a kid where it's basically hide and seek where one person's it and then they go around looking for the other people and and when they find somebody then the person that they found teams up with them and they continue until everybody's found. I mean, that's basically what it seemed like, which, you know, is a game that I think all of us played when we were kids, but these kids are just really into it. And it's really it it feels really malicious, like they're they're shouting out killers are coming, and the killer is gonna get you. And I I guess the the person who's it is the killer, but they're really playing it for, you know, the dark, aspect of it in this opening thing. It didn't really seem like a fun game. It seemed like kind of a mean game.

Todd:  Yeah. And that's what kinda made it weird. I don't know. It was like they were trying too hard to be super sinister about it when these are supposed to just be kids playing. They all seem to hate each other or something when they're running around playing them. Like,

Craig:  they just kinda seem like evil kids, like mean kids. And and then you've got, 3 other kids come walking down the street. And we don't know this, of course, now, but these are all, siblings. You've got, Kim, who is the older sister, I believe, and and their last name is Hammond. You've got Kim, Robin, and Alex. And Alex is, the brother. And and Robin and Alex seems to be a little bit younger than Kim. And they hear, the kids playing inside, but, Kim, the older one forgot her book, like one of her school books at school.  So she has to go back and, the brother Alex doesn't want to go in there and play the game. He says, you know, they don't wanna play with us or whatever. But it seems like, Robin does. And so she goes in there, and kind of inadvertently, gets sucked into their game and that's kinda what triggers the event that then, you know, spurs the whole rest of the film.

Todd:  Yeah. It's really weird because she kind of goes in to start playing, but it's not like she announces she's there or she just kinda starts walking around. And I guess they figure out she's there and hiding and so, they make her part of the game, but of course they are all caught. And so they're wandering around looking for her yelling, killers, killers, killers. And they just gang up on her. And it's it's crazy that they did they just gang up on her and they're yelling killers killers killers, but once they find her, the game should be over, but it's not.

Craig:  Right. Well, it seems really mean spirited and you know, like they back her into a corner and you know, I mean if they're playing, they should be laughing. Now, you know, I'm sure this is, you know, a directorial choice. I'm sure these kids were told what to do and they were told to be really mean and threatening, but it was just kind of off putting and it made me dislike those kids. And so I knew, you know, that eventually we were gonna flash forward. And I'm, like, I hope I'm not supposed to sympathize with these characters because I don't. Like, they were mean asshole kids.

Todd:  And and  I don't know what their end game was like. Were they just going to back her into a corner and just keep her there all day?

Craig:  I have no idea.

Todd:  Well, they end up up stairs, and, they back her up against a window, which, you know, is just something you see coming from a mile away. And

Craig:  Yep. Mhmm.

Todd:  And she's so scared. She's backing up and backing up and doesn't realize, and she falls out the window to her death below.  Right. The  window breaks, and she falls on kind of the broken window and we assume dies. Now that's what they assume Todd. What's really funny about this is nobody goes down to see if she's okay.

Craig:  Exactly. Right.

Todd:  They all just, imagine that she's dead. And so, I believe it's Kelly. Is it oh, no. It's Wendy, is the one in the group who says, we can't go get help. We all have to just agree that this never happened, that we were never here. And they all make this packed, essentially. And they all take them on their bikes. And then the camera kind of pans in slowly to, Robin who's dead there on the ground.  Mhmm. And as it goes in on her face, you see a shadow Craig. Like, there's another person there who can see it who is witnessing what happened.

Craig:  No. It's just so so right away, I mean, you you'd know. I mean, even if you hadn't read the little blurb on the video box or on IMDB or whatever, you can tell what kind of movie this is gonna be. You know, it's very much it seems very much like a precursor to something like I know what you did last summer. One of those revenge type movies where okay, you know, these kids all have this secret in their past they're trying to hide and it's gonna come around, you know, to get them in the end. And that's exactly what it is and and frankly, you know, I watched this yesterday, during the day. And as I was watching it, I'm like, This is fine. You know, it takes after that, it jumps to what, like 6 years later?

Todd:  Yes.

Craig:  And, we, you know, we get some kind of sloppy exposition where we kind of hear in voice over that, there was a suspect and, you know, it was a guy who had, you know, been like a sex offender in the past and he lived near that abandoned building. So they assumed it was him and, when they tried to pursue him, he tried to, get away and, like, in a car chase. And, he was, he was in an accident and he was badly burned and so he's been hospitalized and institutionalized ever since then. But it was presumed that he was guilty. And it's just real it just seems really clunky.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  When we cut into, you know, the 6 years later, we we find out that, Leslie Nielsen's character, his name is just mister Hammond. You know, he was the father, of this girl who died and and of course, now we've got the grown children, all of them, but really, you know, we've got, Kim, who is the older sister and who is now being played by Jamie Lee Curtis. And so it it and really from that point on, there's about, I would say, 30, 40 minutes of silly high school drama, and then people start getting killed. And that's pretty much it.

Todd:  Oh, gosh. I think it it's longer than that. And that's one thing that kind of was, like, the movie is kinda boring, don't you think?

Craig:  Yeah. You know, it's like I said, like, when I was watching it yesterday, I'm like, you know, this is pretty standard slasher fair. You know, you've got, right away again, we're reintroduced to all these characters and and it basically seems like, all of the kids have grown up and are doing okay. Like, missus Hammond, the mother, is not doing particularly well. But the siblings, Kim and Alex, they seem okay. And, you know, they're this is the anniversary now of her death. It's 6 years later. And, all of the other kids who have grown up seem fine, and they're all kind of friends, except for Wendy.  Wendy was the one who said, No, we can't tell. And now she's grown up and she's turned into the high school bitch. And, it seems like she and Kim are kind of rivals and, they're rivals over Nick. And then it's just it's a lot of really kind of silly high school drama with, you know, fighting over boys and what are we gonna wear to the dance and am I gonna get invited to the dance and Hello, Drew.

Todd:  Missed you on the bus today. I didn't ride it. No kidding. I gotta ride it. Who went? None of your business. Who went? A guy. A guy, Who with, Jude? Jude. I'm going to the proms.

Craig:  Great. The proms.

Todd:  You know, I know why Kit won't go out with me. She likes a girl. It's better than kissing an ashtray. Say goodbye, Lou. Goodbye, Lou. Hey, listen. You guys ever get tired of each other, I'm always around. Know what I mean? Oh, really?

Craig:  It it just seems like the it they were really really thin on plot and so they were just trying to flesh it all out. And I read, you know, I like I said before there is that the mention of this guy, Murch, who was the guy who was suspected of killing this girl. His the whole subplot with Murch and the the police are looking for him throughout the whole movie. Like, they find out that he's escaped from where he was, unexplainably, because he's been catatonic ever since then. That he's escaped now. He kidnapped a nurse and stole her car. And so they're looking for him and, they're checking out the old building and they find the nurse there and, you see the car driving around every once in a while. And it ends up all being entirely inconsequential.  Like, it's just a huge red herring that has absolutely no payoff whatsoever. And I found out, you know, having read more about it after I watched the movie that all of that was added in late in production. Like, I don't know if they just didn't have enough content. They had to put something else in. If they if there was not enough intrigue or mystery because there's really not a lot of other hints as to who the killer might be except for that obviously, you know, they're seeking revenge for this incident because the only people who are being targeted seemingly are these 4 kids who are involved which also takes away some of the tension because you don't really feel like anybody else is any kind of imminent danger. It's only those 4 kids you don't really care about anyway because then there's this other huge cast of characters who you don't can't even keep track of. I don't know. If you can't tell, I ended up, you know, I I sat through the whole thing.  I watched the whole thing. And then thinking about it later last evening and even more so today, I'm like, you know, this movie was pretty dumb. Yeah. I don't I don't really think I cared for it very much at all.

Todd:  Well, it's so heavily plotted that it just there's no characterization. It's it's more interested in what's happening, like you said, the silly high school drama and stuff like that, than us really getting to know or care about these people. And it's almost like the writing, it's a little too economical. You get these really brief scenes where just you get a small little bit of important information that's delivered to you on a platter, and then boom, there's another little brief scene where there's a small little bit of information delivered to you on a platter. I mean, even when we fast forward into the future, you've got Leslie Nielsen and the whole family standing around the grave. Oh, okay. So we understand this is Robin the stiff. The family's still breaking up about this.  The mother doesn't like it. Boom. Then we go to school, and they're having this, you know, silly dialogue. And the the first thing out of their mouths is, oh, there's that creepy mister Sykes, you know. Oh, don't worry. Mister Sykes is fine. And and, of course, there's mister Sykes who's who's holding an implement of of, you know, cutting. He's, like, carving the bushes and looks on at them, like, really really creepy.  Like, okay, here's our first possibility for the killer we know is coming up is mister Sykes.

Craig:  Well, yeah. And and such a stock character and one that would be read as being totally offensive Todd, you know, like, they play it like he's slow, like he's impaired and, you know, people could get away with that in the eighties but it's totally not PC now. And so it just it seems even understanding that within the context of its history that was something that we unfortunately, you know, were okay with at the time. It just seems a little bit distasteful like it's off putting and Yeah. It's just another thing against the movie I think overall.

Todd:  Well, and it's just so obviously thrown in there that the your first thing is, like, oh, here's our first possibility. Check him off the list. Right. Because he's there's no way, shape, or form he's gonna be the mysterious killer. And then we get these phone calls, which is, reminded me a lot of Black Christmas.

Craig:  Black Christmas. Mhmm.

Todd:  And, actually, a lot of this movie seemed like it was trying really hard to cop some of the style of Black Christmas. You know?

Craig:  Mhmm. I agree. I

Todd:  agree. Pacing. And I'll have

Craig:  to say that They have the same composer.

Todd:  Oh, there you go.

Craig:  The same musical composer.

Todd:  Well, maybe that's a little bit of it. I mean, the director the director, the cinematographer, they can't really hold a candle to, Bob Clark. I just I just love Bob Clark. He's got a style of his own, but they're trying really hard to make it. I hate to say art house, but maybe art house, like, these elements where it cuts away from the high school drama, and we focus a little more on this mysterious killer or they do flashbacks. They're a little creative, but they feel like they're in the wrong movie, you know? Yeah.

Craig:  And I and I just didn't feel like they were executed very well. Like I I understood what they were trying to do that, you know, they were cutting back and forth, you know, when one of our characters are are are now, you know, teenage characters is having memories of of what happened and maybe is are feeling guilt or or something. And we get these really quick flashbacks to the scenes that we had seen in the beginning. And I, you know, I I got what the the connection that they were trying to make. It just didn't seem well done. I mean, it just it it felt it felt kind of amateur, and and I didn't think they succeeded.

Todd:  Yeah. We get these phone calls to each of the kids and, you know, you get these shots of the phone and the phone cord and, of course, the killer talking, And he says something sinister to every one of them, and every one of them who answers the phone just writes it off as, some, you know, sick person who's calling call. Crank call, heavy breather, whatever. And he's saying, you know, these things, like, do you still like to play games?

Craig:  Right. Right.

Todd:  And and crosses them each off the list. And like you said, it it kinda works against the movie because you know, okay. Well, this guy's targeting these people. Nobody else is really gonna be in danger. It takes a little bit of that suspense out of it, and it also takes the motivation question out of it. And it's just clunky. It's not very well done. And then Mhmm.  Again, like you said, that subplot is inserted in there so clunkily too. And it just so turns out that, whose dad is it? Who is the police officer?

Craig:  It's, Nick's dad.

Todd:  Nick's dad, McBride.

Craig:  Lieutenant McBride. Right?

Todd:  And he just calls in the doctor who worked on the the case of this schizophrenic man who they had thought had killed Robin many years ago. And the doctor walks in the office and he's like  Look, I'm on a tight schedule. I hope this is an emergency, Sergeant. Lieutenant, I was promoted last year. Great. Congratulations. What's the problem? Leonard Murch. Just came over the wire. Last night, Marge escaped from the state hospital in Cleveland.  He took a nurse in their car with him. The authorities in Cleveland say he's violent. I don't see how I can help. I haven't even seen Leonard since he was institutionalized. But you know him. Knew it. Knew it. Past it.  You think he'd head back here? I don't know. Oh, come on. Even a guest will help. Lieutenant, you're asking me to comment on a catatonic schizophrenic who was disfigured and institutionalized 6 years ago.  Right. Who knows where he would go? It's so clunky. It is it's so to the point. Like I said, it's it's just so economical. It's so bold on its face. Everything's just Well,

Craig:  and those that subplot is never tied into the main plot. I mean, like, it's it's it's ancillary, like, you know that they're related, but the lieutenant never, aside from being Nick's dad, he never has anything to do with the other kids. In fact, eventually, when we actually get to the prom, the lieutenant goes and is, like, guarding the prom and waiting to see if this guy will show up for no apparent reason.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Why would they think that he might show up there? Like, it doesn't even make any sense.

Todd:  It doesn't.

Craig:  And as it turns out, it it's completely inconsequential. You could completely remove all of those scenes. In fact, you could remove any mention of that guy. You could remove that lieutenant entirely, and it would have absolutely no impact on the plot of the movie.

Todd:  Oh, yeah. If you did, then the body count is 0 for the first entire hour. I mean, if you don't count the flashback. For the for the Yes,

Craig:  it is. Right.

Todd:  Hour of the film, the body count is 0. And and that's why, I mean, it gets pretty boring because it's just these characters being somewhat stalked even though they're not really being stalked because the if if you don't have the information that the audience does, nobody has anything to worry about. Right? Right. Right. There's like a picture torn out of a yearbook that it will appear occasionally appear in, each of their lockers that they find. And there's a point in there where Jamie Lee Curtis' character Kim, is showering and and with with somebody else, and a mirror breaks. You know, somebody's obviously thrown something at the mirror in the girl's changing room, but then they go out and they don't find anything. And then they come back in and they Well,

Craig:  and and and they kinda think they kinda think those things are weird, but they don't have any reason to suspect that there would be somebody after them. Yes. Like, I mean, except for maybe those, except for, I guess, the phone calls. But like you said, they totally write those off. And again, you know, you get those phone calls early on and then there's no follow-up with that either. Like, you would expect this guy to keep calling or keep contacting them in some way, tormenting them in some way, but he doesn't. It's like they're just kind of cutting and pasting these different slasher, you know, elements all into one movie, and they it just feels disjointed.

Todd:  Oh, yeah. And the scenes themselves are so awkwardly staged. I mean, they're awkwardly staged. Every single time, you would cut to the kids giving some little bit of information about their high school drama, you would be walking down a hallway kind of really slowly in kind of an odd way just so that the camera could film them in a certain way. It it just all of it there was just an air of unnaturalness, like, hey, we're we're putting a movie together about the way that those things were staged.

Craig:  Yeah. And there were so many things like that just seem completely unnatural. Like, Jamie Lee Curtis will be walking around in her school, and the school is completely empty of any other person. Like, when is this supposed to be? Is this supposed to be during the school day? Like, does she just hang out there during the day on weekends? Like, I don't even understand what's happening. There's a chase scene later on in the movie where it's during the prom and one of the girls, is getting chased around and she's running all over the school on prom night, and there are no other people anywhere around. I'm like, what is happening? I know. And she's

Todd:  got running.

Craig:  Jamie Lee Jamie Lee Curtis and her friend are in the in the locker room, and it's just the 2 of them. Like, was this your private gym class? Like, I don't even Todd doesn't make any sense.

Todd:  Oh, I like that part too where they, open up the the, you know, the the wind the mirror breaks, and so they go out to investigate. And then they open up the door that leads straight to the outside. And the I don't know if you caught this, but the sign on the on there says girls change room, which which is really brilliant, you know, to have your school to have an exterior door, and then to have a sign on that exterior door that announces that it's the girls' changing room. And the the sign below, it says visitors are requested to report to the office.

Craig:  Oh, god. That's funny.

Todd:  I don't know, man. I I don't know if that was just an oversight or if that was intentionally humorous, but I got a big kick out of that. There's a ridiculous scene. That ridiculous scene with Nick and Kim by the ocean when they're just walking.

Craig:  Yeah. Is this supposed to be Very after school special.

Todd:  Is this supposed to be near the school or something? Because  It

Craig:  has to be near the school. There it's like along a beach, but it's like on a cliff. Like, they they call it the bluffs or whatever. It's gotta be near the school, because something else happens there later on prom night. That's right. But, yeah. I mean, it's so melodramatic. You know, they're melodramatically walking along these cliffs.  The waves are crashing and it's

Todd:  I love you.  Camilla?  I love you too. I want you to know, Robin's death, I remember it. I've always been really sorry about it. I mean, I know what you're feeling. I Listen, Kim. I,  I gotta go.  Yeah. See you later.  There's a lot of that in this movie. I I love us particularly. I love Wendy and how they make her out to be such a bitch and they show us her home life, which they show in maybe like 3 different shots. And every single time, Wendy is, like, either getting ready for school or getting ready for a date or getting ready for the prom. And just as the doorbell rings or just as she's getting ready to head out the door, this older woman pops into the frame who at first, I thought, what is it her mother? But she's too old to be her mother. Maybe it's like her grandmother, but she's just dressed up in an apron. And, like, her sole purpose for popping in is just to look aghast at what Wendy's doing or right all that crazy kid kind of look on

Craig:  her face. Yeah. And just to show that, you know, Wendy rules the rooster at her house, like, she can do whatever she wants because she's a bad girl and, you know, that I thought it was her mom. I don't know. You're right. She did look way too old to be her mom, but she says something like, are you gonna be home for dinner? And when he's like, how should I know? And just walks out.

Todd:  When he walks out and

Craig:  she just looks out. Rude. She's smoking in the house, like, putting her cigarettes in the ashtray, not even putting them out. The old lady has to come and put her cigarettes out for her. So silly. And there are so many things like that. Like I said, it's just all this silly high school drama. And we're semi introduced to all these characters.  Like, of course, there's the 4 main kids who were involved in the accident. And then there's, Jamie Lee Curtis and her brother. But then Jamie Lee Curtis has, like, a group of other friends who are just kind of with her all the time that I never caught their names. I, like, they're really unimportant. There's, this jerky buffoon type of guy, highly remember, Lou, like who smokes and fights and he's after Kim and and it's you know I you just wonder why are they giving us all of these characters when they're completely inconsequential really and we don't even care about the central characters that we have or like I don't feel like I know anything about them. Yeah. It's it's just it's it's some it's kind of a mess, really.

Todd:  It is a mess. And it's funny because they're not even Todd central characters. Like, aside from Wendy who is the bitch girl, the rest of them are all, like, blend together. Like, it's not like  Mhmm.  Except for I don't know. Maybe, like, Jude is the girl who just happens to not be able to get a date to the prom until Right. That Seymour guy comes up. And and this is like, hey.  Hey, beautiful needle lift. No. Thanks. Come on. I won't bite. So who are you? Seymour Craig. But, they they, call me Slick. I I can see why.  How old are you Slick? Old enough. I've heard about guys like you running over girls on the sidewalk. For some girls, if they're, if they're good looking, I I give them a ride.

Craig:  Like, like, Kelly is the one who is is, you know, thinking about losing her virginity and she's got kind of this jerky boyfriend who, is pressuring her to do it on prom night or whatever. And it's just seriously, it's it's you know, I work in a high school and there's not as much drama as they try to establish in this hour and a half. I mean, it's and it's just you don't care. Who cares? We don't care if Kelly is gonna have sex with this guy. We don't care that Jude has finally gotten a date. Nobody cares. Let's get to the action.

Todd:  But we don't we don't get to anything for, like, an hour into it. Right. You know, it it but but we do find out that, Kim is going to be crowned queen of the prom along with Nick, the king of the prom. And this must be, like, the most important thing, in their lives. The king and queen, the way that they talk about them must have these incredible duties and standards that they have to uphold to. Because she even makes silly there's silly lines in there, like, well, I need to hold it together. That's what the queen of the prom needs to do. Something like that.  I think during that scene where they're talking at the,

Craig:  on the bluffs.

Todd:  Yeah. Bluffs. And there's a nurse there. Not a nurse. The PE teacher. Female Yeah. PE teacher who makes them rehearse through the process of accepting, the thing. And you know something's gonna happen here.  And even at one point point, it really it's it's kinda like it's copying from a lot of these different movies. Like, we mentioned Black Christmas, and there's Shades of Carrie in here as well. Mhmm. Definitely. Something's gonna happen at the front. Right.

Craig:  Because can't, right. Kim is, well, excuse me. Wendy and Kim, like I said before, are kind of rivals. They both want Nick. Apparently, Wendy and Nick used to be together, but they're not anymore. And now Kim's with Nick, and Wendy doesn't like it. So when Wendy can't convince Nick to come back to her and go to the prom with her, she hooks up with that big doofus, Lou. And, we don't know what their plan is but we know that they're conspiring something to happen at the prom.  And it does feel very much like Carrie. I mean, it could be that exactly, for all we know but all we know is that something is gonna go down, at the prom. And it's it's, you know, when they finally get to the prom or prom night at least, I'm like, thank Todd, can we just Yeah. What's gonna happen? Come on.

Todd:  There

Craig:  Well, and then they just start getting picked off 1 by 1 in really not very creative or interesting ways too.

Todd:  Well, I love I love the silly, like, really opaque moment when, when Nick goes to pick up Kim for the prom. And Mhmm. We we get this shot of Kim  obviously dressing and her brother is there. They're trying to  have they're having this, like, and her brother is there. They're trying to have they're having this, like, awkward brother sister dialogue back and forth, which really just seems to establish, hey. We're still brother and sister, or, hey. Don't forget. We're still brother and sister. She says something about, hey. Can you help me put on my necklace? And he says, I don't know. I am your brother.  And  Right.  There's a lot of that. And then we get a shot back to Nick downstairs, and he's just staring at the picture of Robin on the mantle.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  And you're thinking, oh, is he gonna he's still feeling guilty. Like, we really need to know this now. And he turns around when Kim comes down the stairs. Oh, you look beautiful. And they go together. And as they're walking out, he turns and makes one long, almost spooky look at the picture of Robin on the mantle again. Like, how long has he been dating this girl? You know?

Craig:  How long? I have no idea.

Todd:  And and

Craig:  it's been 6 years, you know. It's been 6 years, and he's just now feeling guilty. And, like, it it it felt like the filmmakers were trying to force you, like, here's how you're gonna feel. This guy feels guilty, so you're gonna have sympathy for him and you're not gonna want him to get killed. You're not gonna really care if the other ones get killed because somebody has to get killed, but you're not gonna want you're gonna root for him. You're gonna root for him and Kim. And okay. Sure, if you say so.

Todd:  So the first death is at the prom, and it's in, I guess, the locker room where they're making it where it's, it's Kelly and Drew, who are making out. And maybe the the best thing I could say about this movie is that the, teenage first time sex scene was appropriately awkward. And I just think it was so poorly staged that it came so close to reality of awkward teenage sex. But, yeah, again, it's this it's what you it's exactly what you would have expected. Suddenly, she doesn't wanna go through with it, and he immediately turns on her and says, well, I and just just very bluntly says, well, I know many other women who would.

Craig:  Like Right.

Todd:  If he's been working her this long, which is what she gives us the impression, that he's been coercing and coercing her this long, then he really gives up pretty quickly right there at the end. He plays all his cards on the table. He walks out. And, yeah, we get this death scene that's not even that great. It's it's really it's there's this low, kind of slow motion, very dark shot of some feet walking across what actually looks to be like a carpet. It doesn't even look like the floor of the room at all, the locker room, and then you find out later that it's because they reused the same shot like 3 more times. Every time the killer is walking towards somebody, no matter what room it's in, it's the same shot of his feet walking across the same floor, except here because the lights are out. They've darkened it up a bit and made it slow motion, and he comes up from behind and grabs her head and slices her neck with, I guess it's the same shard of glass that, came off of the mirror.  And it seems like, oh, we're trying to establish this connection to that past death where Robin had fallen out of the window and was cut apart by glass. Even the poster, the prom night poster, has a a picture of a masked killer with a big shard of glass there, and one of his victims kind of reflected in it. But correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think we see that as a murder weapon ever again from here on out.

Craig:  I don't think so. I think it I think it's at some point, somewhere, the killer gets an axe and is chasing the rest of them around with an axe for the most part. Doctor.

Todd:  Yeah. Doctor.

Craig:  Or maybe even a knife Todd. I don't remember. But I mean, and I don't remember because it's not memorable. You know, like the the killer is just dressed in all black with a black ski mask on. You know, there's there's nothing to indicate who it may or may not be other than you kinda get to see, you know, the size of this person. It doesn't seem to be, you know, we're not talking about like a Jason Voorhees who's like this looming big presence is, you know, it just looks like somebody and then black clothes, you know. So it's it's it's totally not memorable. And you get that scene and then go ahead.

Todd:  I was gonna say some skinny sort of athletic person, you know, running around. Right. I guess it just rules out almost everybody right from the beginning because I don't know. At some point, I feel like we're supposed to suspect Lou, sort of that dumb oath that's conspiring with Wendy because they were talking about, you know, you need to she needs to pay and but don't hurt her. And we had earlier seen Lou in a ski mask. There was this Right. Right. Confrontation in, the cafeteria.  But once again, Lou is like big and chunky guy. He's clearly not gonna be him. And it wouldn't

Craig:  even make sense. Blatant. Like Yeah. Yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. It wouldn't even make sense the way that it staged. I feel like there's even a scream moment in there where, you know, that Lou comes in late after we see a, you know, a killing, and he's kind of out of breath. And he's saying something cryptic. And you're supposed to, I guess, supposed to think that it's him, but it never crosses your mind.

Craig:  No. It never crossed my mind that it was him. Because first of all, I mean, you can tell that the person who it is is is a completely different physique. And Lou is such a stupid idiot character, like, you he would never be able to do anything that required any kind of skill or planning. Yeah. That's true.

Todd:  So so anyway, there's that death, and then, it switches back to the prom which this is this is where the budget of the movie, I think, like, really shows because I never feel like this is actually a prom and not some set that they're trying to make look like the prom. Because Yeah. Some shots are are of just a few people in the corner, and the lighting seems totally different. And then you get a shot of the stage, which is, like, total disco. Yeah.

Craig:  Yeah. Disco floor is perfect. Well, the theme of the prom is disco madness.

Todd:  Yeah. And that's so unfortunate. It works against the movie in retrospect.

Craig:  Well, right. I mean, it certainly dates it. But I was gonna say if there are any redeeming qualities, to this movie, anytime you get a Jamie Lee Curtis disco dance break, you know, I mean, that's something. I'm glad I saw the movie if not just for that clip. But I if you haven't seen the movie and, it doesn't sound all that appealing to you, I'm sure you can find that clip on, on YouTube. And if so, that's really all you need to see.

Todd:  Well, I don't know. I don't know. You could almost miss that too. I mean, it's terrible dancing. It's poorly filled. I mean, it's and

Craig:  it go on. Got the classic shot where, like, the the she and and, Nick are holding hands and spinning, and you're seeing it from either their perspective. So it's the spinning shot. Oh, I loved it. That made me smile.

Todd:  Well, and it never comes to, like, a climax because after their little spinning shot and everything, you expect they're gonna do some pose or everyone's gonna start clapping, but just everybody just kind of moves on to the dance floor and starts dancing with them all of a sudden. It's not like a dance sequence that has a proper ending, that we're supposed to yeah. I don't know. It just didn't it it was no Romy Michelle's high school reunion. Let's put it that way.

Craig:  Oh, no. I it it was goofy. I'm being sarcastic. It was really goofy, but it was funny. I mean, I laughed because it was so goofy.

Todd:  Oh, and we got the disco prom night theme song, which apparently I read Yes. The soundtrack to this movie is like a thing even though it never really was a thing.

Craig:  Yeah. I read about the soundtrack, initially. Initially, they had filmed everything using, contemporary disco music, you know, like stuff with Donna Summer and stuff that that, you know, would have been very recognizable and popular at the time. But I don't know how they overlooked this. But apparently, to get the rights to those songs was way, way out of the production budget. And so they had the, musical composer, rewrite songs, but really all he did was just copy those songs. And if you listen to the music in the background, it's super familiar. I mean, you can totally tell what songs he was copying.  And I guess they got sued, for copyright and ended up settling out of court. I don't remember what they had to pay, but they did have to pay out on it something for for copyright infringement.

Todd:  There's but but, of course, we have a theme song called prom night. Right. The disco dance sequence gets gives gives us an

Craig:  so it's, it's corny. And you know, I I could see this film actually did pretty well, in its initial release, I guess. It was Canada's highest rated or or or, highest earning, horror film of that year of 1980. And I guess that it did really well in the drive in circuit, which I can see. You know, you go to a drive in. You're a young kid going to a drive in in this day and age, you're really probably not going so much for the movie as for the experience. And so, just to have something kind of on in the background when you're hanging out with your friends or your girlfriend or whatever. I could see how it would work.  But beyond that, I don't really see where the appeal lies.

Todd:  Oh, yeah. Something that you don't need to pay attention to, that you could pop in at any moment and you haven't missed a thing.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  That's kind of this movie. You could go in and out of this film, and it really doesn't matter. No. So then, of course, you get another shot of Jude and the Seymour guy who are at the van, in their van. They're having sex, and it's her first time as well. And I guess they're out at the Bluffs, and there's this shot of what is obviously the killer's point of view kind of coming close to the van and sweeping around to the back window. Then we get shot on the inside, more of this inane dialogue, I feel, between these two characters. They decide that they're going to step out and they walk across to have sex on the ground up by the bluffs and there's this long and this is again a point where I feel like the movie tries to be artistic, but it just is so poorly executed and it just can't do anything within the confines of this script and this acting and these lines.  Mhmm. Where there's this sweeping shot that kind of follows them from from the perspective of through the trees. And it's like all one take. And they go and they lay down. They lay down a blanket for about 5 seconds. And for some reason decide, no. We're just gonna go back to the van again. And so then they walk another 12 feet back to the van and go into the van.  And then we're treat so this scene went absolutely nowhere. And then we're treated again to the same shot of from the killer's perspective, swooping around the van to the back. It's so distracting. It's like they got no coverage, but I've never seen a movie like this reuse so many shots so close together as this movie does, it's so weird. She dies and he dies Todd. We get our huge stunt sequence where he jumps his reaction, by the way, to the back doors opening, her falling out the back and getting axed by this murderer is to immediately run to the front, start the car, and try to take off. But instead, all he does is spin circles while the killer tries to get into the cab and is hanging out the door. I felt like this was supposed to be our big, you know, stunt number, our big kind of chase scene, but it ended up just looking really dumb and of course drives off the bluff and almost before Which

Craig:  you see coming a mile away?

Todd:  Oh, of course. And if almost before the van even hits anything, it explodes.

Craig:  Yeah. Well, and then here is another place where it just seems like the writing is so muddy. Like, the killer, you assume that their motive is, you know, revenge for this accident or whatever. But there would be no motive to kill this dorky little scene where guy. I mean, it just doesn't make any sense, but he does anyway. And, yeah, I guess it's for the action shot, you know, the exploding van going off the cliff, which is apparently right outside the high school, but nobody notices, you know, this huge explosion right outside the prom. Well, that's It's just, there's there's no sense in it's almost nonsensical to even criticize it because it's it's so silly. And then right after that, we're back in the school, and Wendy's just, like, in the bathroom, like, putting on makeup or something, and the lights go out.  And she's, like, what's going on? And then she gets chased through the school for what had to have been 10 minutes. Like, it was so long. And I thought, oh my god. Just catch her and kill her already.

Todd:  It's It's so bad. And again, as you said earlier, she's running through this suddenly completely empty school. She's running to all of the places that are completely empty. I mean, there is a prom going on over here. You you have plenty of opportunity to run to where all the people are, but you don't, and you don't scream. It's so quiet, and it feels like this sequence to me was a guy sitting down with a whole bunch of shots in mind. Like, I want a shot where, the victim raises her head about halfway up from behind the table, and we just see her eyes looking back and forth, and they're reflected in the shiny surface of the table. And I want a shot of the killer stepping into frame with an ax that's between his legs.  It's it's like there are some really great shots in this sequence, but they do nothing for the sequence because they're just  No.

Craig:  And she just she just keeps running from one place to the next and hiding, like, okay. I'll run and hide here for 30 seconds until the killer shows up, and then, ah, there he is. Now I'll run somewhere else and hide there for 30 seconds. Ah, here he is again. Like, it's just come on, get on with it. Yeah. And and so eventually, they do. Eventually, she ends up in a closet, and it, like, and this happens several times too.  Like, the killer kind of is looking where she is, but then he's going away, but then she makes a noise. Like, that happens, like, 3 times. Mhmm. And finally, on the last one, she ends up in some closet. And I guess that's where the killer had stashed one of the other girls, either Jude or Kelly. I don't remember. It doesn't make any difference. But she sees the blood dripping and she sees the body and she screams.  And so the killer comes back and kills her. And so then all we've got left is, of the 4 original kids is Nick. And that's when it comes time for the prom king and queen coronation. And, they've rehearsed this before, so they know what they're supposed to do. But, of course, remember we have to lose, got this plan or whatever. So when, Jamie Lee Curtis, my Kim, and Nick go backstage and take their positions, lose goons grab Nick and knock him out. And they take his jacket off. And Lou puts on the jacket and the crown like he's gonna go out there and accept prom king or or whatever, and that's gonna be their big prank, Hardy r.

Todd:  Hardy r. Yeah.  It's not even that cool. But No. Lame. But, of course, this killer is not paying attention, apparently. Just arrives on the scene, after this is done and, comes up behind what he the killer thinks is Nick and takes an axe to his head. And a loose head rolls down the center of the stage, in front of everybody at the prom. And, that that's a neat idea, I think.

Craig:  Mhmm. Mhmm.

Todd:  And everybody runs out screaming. And, then there's a chase sequence between the killer and, I guess, Jamie Lee.

Craig:  Nick, and Kim.

Todd:  And Kim. Oh, yeah.

Craig:  Well, yeah. Like, she she goes back. I guess Nick has kind of woken up like he was knocked out or whatever. She goes back to get him. Meanwhile, everybody else has run outside. So it's just the 3 of them still in there. And it's a there's, you know, a fight team between them. It's completely anticlimactic.  You know, the, the killer gets knocked down a couple times. Jamie Lee gets knocked down a couple times. Nick gets knocked down a couple times, and, at some point the killer loses his axe, and Jamie Lee goes to get it, and she picks it up. And while the killer is, like, standing over Nick or something, she hits him, but with the blunt side of it. Now, I mean, obviously, it causes damage and that would, you know, severely injure somebody, but she doesn't, like, chop his head off or whatever. And then there's this moment where the killer pauses and he and, Kim, Jamie Lee Curtis, make eye contact and there's obviously some recognition there. Now this is when I thought that I had figured out who it was. I thought that it was going to be her mom.  Yeah. Because all throughout the whole movie, they had talked about how the mom had never really recuperated. She wasn't taking it well. It was the anniversary. She, you know, she wasn't doing well. She had come to the prom with the dad because the dad just happened to be the principal also. But then, like, she had disappeared. You know, he said he had to take her to relax somewhere.  So she

Todd:  could've easily been doing all these things

Craig:  behind the scenes. Somewhere. So she could've easily been doing all these things behind the scene. And at that point, I had it figured out. I thought, gosh, oh, it was gonna be another sweet 16 where it's it's the mom taking over, or or or even Friday 13th, the mom getting revenge. But that's not how it plays out. The killer, Nick and Kim, stumble outside where the police are all out there, and I think maybe the killer stumbles out there before them. And, Jamie Lee says to the cops, don't shoot him.  Don't shoot him. And she goes, he collapses from the wound on his head, the the blunt wound on his head. And, she kind of holds him in her arms, and she takes off the mask to reveal that it was her brother, Alex, all along. I don't know. What did you think about the, reveal?

Todd:  I didn't care at that point. I mean, I honestly didn't care. I felt exactly the same way you did. I thought it was gonna be the mom, and, so I was a little surprised at the reveal. And it did make sense that maybe, obviously, back in the day when Robin died, that one of the people who would have stumbled across it would have been, one of the siblings since they've been out there walking.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  So so it made logical sense.

Craig:  You know, we But again, was he just biding his time until prom night, like

Todd:  Yeah. It On 6th

Craig:  It doesn't really make and we're never given any indication throughout the whole rest of the movie that he's in any way unhinged. You know, like, he seems fine. And and his reaction you know, he he doesn't seem to be particularly mourning or anything. I mean, yeah. I guess logically speaking, it would make sense that if he was if he saw what had really happened, that he would wanna get revenge. But there's just there's there's there are so many lame, lame, lame red herrings that when it's finally revealed, it's like, really? Like, that's the best you could come up with after all this misguidance?

Todd:  I mean, it's like you said, it makes logical sense, but there's no foreshadowing. And and we don't even spend much time with him in the movie. Mhmm. He pops in and out almost as much as Leslie Nielsen, which is, like, for 3 or 4 scenes, and that's it. So Right. Yeah. It it's just it's just super clunky. It it feels totally contrived, just like the whole movie.  The whole meal movie just feels completely contrived. It's kind of a paint by numbers script, I think, that's derivative of all the movies we've listed. And it tries at times to be artistic and kind of give this art house feel, but it's so poorly executed, and it's so shoehorned into an otherwise kind of silly movie that it doesn't matter.

Craig:  Right. And I don't know. You know, I've been, very critical as we've gone. You know, it's it's a cheesy eighties slasher. You know, there were some ones that lasted, but even the ones that lasted and turned into big franchises, it's not like they were masterpieces of cinema No. When they came out. You For for whatever reason, they found, a fan base and and, you know, people ran with it. Studios ran with it because they were making money.  You know, I think, this film was originally supposed to be distributed by Paramount, but, they were only gonna release it in a handful of theaters and some other more obscure, company, production company offered to release it to do a wider release. And so they went with that. Well, Paramount, so then instead went with Friday 13th, which came out the same year, which, you know, of course went on to be this huge franchise and still is. So who knows? I mean, it may just be serendipity, you know. Had had these people had the prom night folks gone with, Paramount, maybe that would have become the big new franchise. I don't know. I mean, personally, I think Friday 13th is a better movie. But we you know, it's certainly open for criticism too.  But in the end, it's in the end, you know, going in, I I love watching these kinds of movies. I like to see as many of them as I could. Just the name of this movie and the fact that, Jamie Lee Curtis is in it and, you know, she was such a big screen queen of the eighties. I really couldn't believe that I hadn't seen it. And now that I have, I'm like, I could have gone without seeing it. Like, it would have been fine. You know, it's not enriched my life in any way, beyond just being a completest, I guess.

Todd:  No. There's definitely a reason it's been forgotten. And, you know, you make that comparison to the Friday 13th movies, and you're right. They are better even though they're not great movies, but I think where they're different is at least they're more interesting to watch. At least there's something going on. There's some genuine suspense happening. There's some genuine unknowns as to who's gonna live, who's gonna die, and and even though they're pretty clunky Todd, and very thin on characterization, thin on plot, they make up for it by being really good on atmosphere, and again, that suspense, whereas this movie just doesn't really have either.

Craig:  Right. And creativity. I mean, you know, there's only so many ways that you can kill a person I suppose. But, you know, even in those early movies, you know, there was variety in the kills. You know, there was interest They were shot in interesting ways, and this just wasn't. I mean, it just it almost felt like a made for TV kind of thing and, it it just didn't work for me. You know, I I'm sure that there are people out there who saw it when it came out, who have fond memories of seeing it with their friends at the drive in or, you know, snuggling up with their boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever at the drive in for kind of just some cheap thrills or whatever. And, and I understand that completely, you know.  There are lots of bad movies that I have really fond memories of. But coming to this now, it just didn't do anything for me.

Todd:  Unless you're a disco fan. Right. You get the disco dance sequence, and you get the disco battle at the end. Yes. Well, thank you for listening to another episode of 2 Guys in a Chainsaw. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. We're on iTunes. We're on Stitcher.  We also have a Facebook page and a Google plus page. Please like us there, share us there, and start up a conversation. Let us know what you thought of this episode and whatever future episodes you might want us to review. Until then, I'm Todd

Craig:  And I'm Craig.

Todd:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Our second Victor Salva movie (we previously discussed Clownhouse), and it’s clear this man has some style and originality in his films. Both of us loved this unique – if uneven – romp that begins as a suspenseful chase film and ends up a monster movie.

Jeepers Creepers (2001)

Episode 42, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another edition of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. I’m Craig. And today, this movie was a film from 2001, Jeepers Creepers. This was a movie that I had not actually seen until now, and Craig was extremely surprised.

Craig:  Yeah. And it was my turn to pick this week, and this is one that we’ve been talking about for a while, and I you know, it’s a 15, 16 year old movie. I can’t believe you haven’t seen it. So what’d you think?

Todd:  You know, it’s always been on my list, but I didn’t really know anything about it, and I think in the end that turned out to be a good thing. I yeah. I guess I just sort of missed it when it came out. You know, I think this was the time when I would I had moved overseas, and so about any movie from 2,001 to 2,003 that was American, if it wasn’t like, I think, Lord of the Rings or one of the Harry Potter movies, we didn’t probably get it over in Japan at that time. Well, that makes sense. But, yeah, this movie was interesting, and I think maybe the best way to go into it is to not know anything about it because it it really is kinda bold, and it goes in some directions you wouldn’t imagine, but, you know, you kinda think it’s gonna be like a lot of horror movies where it holds a lot of its cards close to its chest, and it does that for about the first half of the movie, but then for the second half of the movie, it just lays them all out on the table.

Craig:  Yeah. When I saw this, I didn’t know much about it either, and I think that it must say something about their marketing campaign because I remember it was kind of a big deal when it came out. But, when I first saw it, I didn’t know until, I don’t know, like you said, probably halfway through the movie that it was a monster movie. I thought it was a crazy road killer movie, and I thought that was it was I I found it really really creepy, in the first half, in part because I thought, you know, this feasibly could happen. Yeah. And and then, you know, later on when, it’s revealed to actually be kind of a monster movie, I thought that that was, I don’t know, not completely unexpected, but, I didn’t necessarily see it coming. And then it didn’t get hokey from that point. You know, it still it just went in a direction I didn’t expect, and then I thought that it was still pretty effectively scary throughout.

Todd:  Yeah. I think that’s a pretty good description of how it went for me too, and, well, I mean, the movie starts out with Justin Long, and I think this is one of his first films. I think he’d only done Dynasty Quest before this, but was this but this was about the time he was doing the Mac and PC commercials, wasn’t it?

Craig:  Yeah. Yep.

Todd:  So it was kinda neat to see him on the screen, looking pretty young. He still looks pretty young. True. And, he opens up driving across the country, and it’s a rather long scene of the 2 of Mhmm. Him and his sister talking. They’re in this classic car, and they’re driving across nothing. It’s like driving through Kansas, where there’s just a road, and there’s absolutely nobody else coming from the other direction. At one point, they get behind a camper, and they pass it, and that’s, like, the only other car they see for most of the movie.  And they’re just chatting. They’re chatting. It’s clear that he has picked her up from school, I think. He’s picked her up from from her she’s in university, and, they’re going back to

Craig:  school. Or maybe they go to the same university. I’m not sure. He says something about, he lives on campus and she lives off campus. So, I don’t know if they go to the same school or they go to nearby schools or whatever, but they’ve come back together to to take the trip home.

Todd:  Yeah. And, you know, I found this banter to be really charming. I guess it’s just interesting enough that you don’t sit there and tap your foot and go, okay. Where when’s the movie gonna start? Because this movie doesn’t really start with a jump scare or some kind of Right. Projection of the future, the horrible things that are happening, like a lot of horror films do. They try to grab you in the first few minutes with something like that, and and this doesn’t have that, which is also pretty unusual.

Craig:  Yeah. And I just thought that it did a really good job in the very beginning of establishing not only kind of, you know, I I say isolated only because, you know, they’re out in the middle of nowhere. I guess this was filmed in Florida and and the director Victor Salva, really kind of wanted it to look not as beautiful as the actual Florida landscape looks like. So they ended up doing a lot of shading and stuff to kind of dull the colors and things. But it worked really well because, you know, you and I are both, you know, from the Midwest and it felt very much, you know, it felt very familiar. It felt like countryside that we could drive through at any given moment, here in the Midwest.

Todd:  Oh, yeah.

Craig:  And then the, yeah. And then the the the 2 main actors who we’re introduced to, like you said, Justin Long plays Derry, and Gina Phillips plays Trisha, and they’re brother and sister. And like you said, it’s charming and I just thought that they did a really good job of establishing a very believable brother sister relationship. You know, they’re they’re teasing one another, they’re picking on one another, but they’re also playful and they’re playing games like, you know, they’re competitive, they’re, you know, trying to beat each other figuring out, you know, what vanity plates mean. Gay gay fever. No. Gay forever. Gay forever.

Clip:  That’s mine. That’s 3 for little bros. That’s a 6, not a g, you idiot. That’s sexy forever. That’s mine. That’s 5 to 2. Okay, fever?

Craig:  I just found the relationship between the two to be really, really believable from the very beginning. And I think that it needed to be because we’re with these 2 for the whole movie. Like, they those these 2 are on screen the whole time. If their relationship wasn’t believable, if their acting was poor, I I I think it would have just sunk the movie altogether.

Todd:  Yeah. You needed to like them. You needed to enjoy spending time with them, and I really did. They didn’t overplay it at all. It it really worked. The chemistry worked, and that’s really a pretty good testament to the writing and the acting as well. And the fact that, again, there’s nothing else to distract you in this movie. It’s we’ve had that experience, 2 people sitting in a car, making conversation as they’re going across the country.  And, he’s got a bag of laundry in the back, and she’s talking about how it smells when she goes back to get something. And she pulls down an air freshener and tucks it in there, which which I I wanna talk about later because I’m wondering if there’s some significance to that. The the cinematography could play that up a little bit, and then later on, you know, we do find out that maybe that’s a little important, but I didn’t quite catch it. So anyway, as they’re driving along and after they pass that van after a while and this is another thing I thought the movie did really well, and that was bring things up in the background. You know? Uh-huh. Create that sense of tension where, yeah, these 2 people are talking, but, hey. I just noticed that there’s something a little blurry approaching them from the back. It’s absolutely past that RV.  Yeah. That, in the background, you just kind of notice that it turns off the road, and there’s something else coming up behind it Todd, but it takes a long time to get there. And in the meantime, they’re talking. By the time it gets behind them, it’s this very weird looking vehicle. It’s it’s like a big truck that’s been kinda souped up, and it’s grungy and rusty looking, and it gets very aggressive with them. It’s like it’s trying to pass them, and they’re kinda freaking out, and it won’t pass them, and they’re moving to try to let it pass, but then it’s getting behind them. It almost seems, for a minute, like it’s trying to run them off the road.

Craig:  Yeah. And it’s a really it’s it’s a scary looking vehicle. Like, I I have no idea what it would have originally been intended for, like, some sort of farm truck or something. I mean, it’s it’s bigger than your typical, you know, truck that you see on the road but not as big as, like, you know, a big Craig. But just the way that, you know, it’s all rusted out and, you know, it’s it’s it’s it’s a scary and the truck, I think, in this movie is almost kind of a character in itself or at least an extension of, the main antagonist and it’s really spooky. Like you said, you have a better eye than I did because I didn’t even the first time I saw it, I didn’t even see it coming at them until it was right behind them and it honked its horn and they were super startled and it got me too because I was engaged in what they were talking about. I wasn’t paying attention to what was going on in the background, and then it was just there out of nowhere, and I jumped probably as much as as the characters did. And yeah.  So then, you know, it finally eventually goes around them and of course they’re kind of freaked out, you know, what was that? What was that all about? But they don’t think much more, about it except for they it reminds, Trish that this road is kind of notorious. She remembers a story and it it’s unclear if it’s kind of like an urban legend or if it happened at their, you know, high school or what. But, a couple, a high couple who’d been going to a dance or something, their car was found alongside the road, but their bodies weren’t found or maybe parts of their bodies were found but not all of it. And and she says something and, you know, in hindsight it’s a little hokey, but she says, you know, every time I heard that story, it always made me think this would be the highway that I would die on.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And so, you know, it’s it’s it’s a little bit, you know, it’s a little bit clunky that line as far as writing goes. But, it does, you know, at least give you some indication that maybe, you know, there’s something going on, in this area or on this particular road.

Todd:  And and it just so happens that this couple who’s been playing this license plate game, that this truck also has a license plate. And if you sound it out, it looks like it’s it’s beating you. Uh-huh. And, you know, this movie reminds me so much, at least at this point of Dual. Have you ever seen Dual?

Craig:  I haven’t.

Todd:  It’s, it’s one of Steven Spielberg’s very first films. Think it might have been made for TV, but it’s a fantastic movie, and it’s one of those, like you said, Todd, terrorizer kind of films where

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  You see this big semi tractor trailer that’s just antagonizing this person, but you never see the driver, and that’s Right. Kind of how it is, at least at first, with this guy. You know it’s gonna be significant later on because you know what kind of a movie you’re watching, and then later on as they’re talking, they drive past what looks like at first an old rundown abandoned house that’s just far enough off the road that you can see that that big truck is there, and you could see this figure that’s dressed kind of menacingly in in what looks like large leather overcoat or something and a hat. And he’s Yeah.

Craig:  He almost looks like a gunslinger or something.

Todd:  Yeah. He does. And he’s taking these, what look like wrapped bodies, out of the back of the truck and tossing it down this again, it’s so weird. This big pipe that’s angularly out of the ground behind this building, and it’s so strange. And again, it’s it’s just very reminiscent of these. Yeah. This this guy was in this house here, and these are the people he’s just killed, and he’s out in the country. And they as they’re driving by, they notice, and they’re like, oh my gosh.  Are those Todd? Are those bodies? And as they’re craning their heads out the window and passing, this guy just stands and looks at them.

Craig:  And watches them drive past.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s so creepy. And, you know, they’re targets now, yet you just can’t Right.

Clip:  Have

Todd:  a very good look of this guy, but you know that he’s menacing because he still looks amazing from yards, you know.

Clip:  The,

Craig:  the camera never zooms in on him. It’s always, you know, kinda from their perspective. They can and he’s in all black, so, you know, you can’t really see any detail. He’s almost just kinda like a silhouette. But the other thing that I thought was so effective here is that it’s broad daylight. Like, this is in the middle of the day. Yeah. And and they, you know, they’re on a highway.  Maybe, you know, it’s rural or whatever, but they’re, you know, driving by on the highway. And this guy is just almost casually pulling what clearly appear to be bodies wrapped up in a sheet and just tossing them down there, you know, right out in the open and, you know, they just so happen to drive by and yeah, just that menacing stare. I mean, he turns and just watches them, his his it’s almost like his whole body kind of turns to follow them as they go by. And it’s so creepy. I just thought it just gives me the willies, because again, hopefully, in real life, you would never see something like that. But every once in a while, you know, maybe you drive by some scene or you just catch a glimpse of something that just doesn’t seem right and it’s really unsettling. And and I I think I was able to relate to it which is what made it so effective.

Todd:  Yeah. And again, it’s that what what the filmmaker Victor Salva does so well in in this film and in others is just in the background kind of out of focus. These things are happening and and the fact, like you said, that it’s daylight, I’ve always said, in horror films, if you can make the horror happen during the day, it’s just 10 times more creepy. To me, it’s like right up on par with using children’s voices, you know.

Craig:  Right. Right.

Todd:  If it’s in the day, it’s pretty scary because it just sets you off kilter, and it maybe puts a little more in the real life for you.

Craig:  And Well, and I think something so something else that it does well in that moment is that it’s not just, Oh, here’s the menacing stare. Like, you know, that could have happened and they could have driven along and been like, Oh, that was creepy. But no, I mean, he he watches them go by but then he immediately gets into his big truck and starts chasing them again. And so, you know, we know that he saw them. We know that he’s kind of after them or whatever, and he runs them off, the road, which is where then they start to debate about what they should do next. You know, dairy thinks that they need to go back, you know, they they both agreed that those sure looked like Todd, and Trish doesn’t wanna go back, you know, and and I I again, they have these conversations that feel very real because usually in movies like this, they don’t have those conversations. They just go back because, of course, they’re going Todd. It’s a horror movie.  Mhmm. But here, you know, Trish is, like, you’re crazy. Why would we go back? And but he convinces her and they do go back and they look down the tube, you know, dairy calls down there. He doesn’t hear anything and we’re seeing it from the perspective of down in the bottom of the tube. So we’re just seeing, you know, dairy kind of framed in the circle of light. When he’s called down there, he doesn’t get any response. He moves out of that circle of light for just a second and you just very faintly hear some kind of moaning or something from down, wherever that tube leads, and he hears it Todd. And so he wants to check it out.  He gets a flashlight and he he starts to crawl in there. And it’s maybe my favorite line from the whole movie. Trish says

Clip:  Okay. You know the part in scary movies where somebody does something really stupid and everybody hates them for it? This is

Todd:  it. And I

Craig:  just thought that was so clever because nobody does ever question that, you know, in in the movies. And that kind of, you know, self reference in that, in joke, I thought it was really funny and it didn’t come off as as cornball or hokey. It just felt kind of natural and something that might run through my head, given that circumstance.

Todd:  Well, and something that’s kind of messed up, but then works, for their motivation for going back is the fact that he runs them off the road, but he keeps going. You you’ve Mhmm. You feel like, oh, he’s he’s gonna be taking them down, and there’s going to be a chase, but he just seems to want to run them off the Todd, and then he totally takes off. So they feel, in a sense, they feel like there’s a giant net of safety underneath them, that this guy’s Right. You know, clearly not after them after them, at least not yet. And so they can go back, and they can spend a little time, doing this exploration that’s ultimately I wouldn’t do in a 1000000 years. But No. But they do.  But you still have, of course, that feeling, like, man, this guy could come back any minute now. This guy could come back any minute now, And and he never does. Right. So anyway, yeah. They’re they’re going, jeez. He wants to get a better look. They pull out a flashlight. He’s, like, hanging down the tube and asks her to hold his feet, and you know this isn’t gonna end well.  And oh, right. Right. It’s rats that scare him, and he starts kicking and slides down the tube and ends up at the bottom. And this is another part that I thought was really interesting. It’s nothing I don’t think I’ve quite seen anything like this before where he starts exploring this underground little layer. He comes across the body. The body, he kicks a little bit and it moves. So he tears it open, and there, sure enough, is an almost dead young person in there, guy.  Mhmm. And he just kind of tries to say something and I don’t think he if he manages to get something out, it’s unintelligible.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  And, Justin Long’s character, Derry, was that right?

Craig:  Yeah. Mhmm.

Todd:  Opens up, tears open the cloth that’s wrapped around him and sees that some his chest has been, very crudely sewn up like you might sew up a scarecrow. Obviously, something’s been taken out of it, and then this guy just totally dies. And what I haven’t seen in a movie like this is that at first when he’s looking around, he can’t see everything because it’s totally dark, but as the scene goes on, we even as the audience start to see more things just in the same way that your eyes adjust to the light in a dark room. Yep. You know? As your eyes adjust to the light in a dark room, gradually you can see more things and pretty soon it’s like as long as there’s just a little bit of light in there, you don’t need a flashlight. That happens to us as he’s kind of walking around. There’s some things he’s shining his flashlight on. He’s kind of seeing, but then the background to us slowly becomes a little more visible, until you can see there’s definitely something creepy in the background.  And that’s about the time that he turns around and sees it himself. And that

Craig:  is Right. And I thought that part was exactly like you said, you know, the fact that it’s it just kinda slowly, slowly comes into focus so that we, the viewers, maybe notice something in the background, but you’re asking yourself, what is that? There there’s something weird. What something weird is going on in the background. And then when it becomes clear, then it’s really grotesque and horrifying.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s Todd. And and at first, again, they look like maybe just mannequins that are

Clip:  Mhmm.

Todd:  Like glued to the ceiling and to the walls and in all these different positions and things. Definitely creepy. But then, he notices that, there are these very prominent bodies kind of right in front of him at one point, and it’s a girl that has had her head sewn back on who’s conjoined, to a guy, and literally conjoined. They’ve been sewn together, and they’re hand they’re holding hands, and he sees the ring on the hand and puts 2 and 2 together. It’s it’s a class ring. Puts 22 together that this is the girl they were talking about earlier, who had died on this rope, who had lost her head, and he goes, he sewed it back on, and runs back to the thing and says, we need to get out of here, and yells up to

Craig:  him, right.

Todd:  You can’t get back up the pipe. But then they have this interesting exchange and and this is, the point where she’s like, what’s going on? What’s going on? He’s just like, go get help. Go to the road. Find a flag down a person you can for help, and if that guy comes back, please run back here. And she’s like, Well, how are you gonna get out? And he says, Well, this and it turns out that this is an old church that they’re behind. He said, I’m sure I’m in the basement of this church. I’ll find a way out, and that turns out to be a pretty easy task for him. Now what’s weird about this and what’s very unsettling about it is that we as a as an audience immediately can recognize that if this happened in 1978, I think, was when this death of this girl on this road was supposed to happen, these bodies look extremely fresh.

Craig:  Yeah. And I that’s never really explained. And there are some things that go unexplained. You know, like he says, I can get my way. It’s a basement. I’ll find my way out. We never actually see him do that. He just appears out later.  And and and same thing here. The, the Todd, like you said, at first, they almost look like mannequins. And they’re clearly props I would assume unless it was, you know, it was actors and really, really heavy makeup. But they look almost plasticized and later, Daria and Trish talked to the police and explained what happened and the police asked the exact same question, you know, if if it’s who you say it was, you know, that was 20 some years ago. They wouldn’t be anything but bones. And he says, Yeah, but I grabbed one of them and it was hard like it had been preserved some way. And that’s all we get. That’s the only explanation we get.  We don’t know how, at least as far as I remember, you know, we don’t really get an explanation. It’s just that somehow, they’ve been preserved, and it’s almost like artwork, like, he had dairy, I think, at one point calls it like some sort of messed up Sistine Chapel or something, and and that is very much what it looks like.

Todd:  That’s right. That was a great line Todd. And and you’re right. And not only do we not get the explanation, but we don’t even ever really get a clear sense of why this this thing would be preserving these bodies either. Mhmm. There’s just no connection at all, which is interesting. It I guess it adds a little to the mystery without explaining it. Also, it allows you to have some gruesome props, I suppose.

Craig:  Right. Right.

Todd:  But just as but then comes a really another really great scene, and that is her standing by the Todd, waiting for a vehicle to come. Of course, we haven’t seen any vehicles for a long time, the whole time they’ve been driving, the whole time they’ve been there, and slowly in the background, out of focus, are 2 headlights that appear to be coming from a truck. And they’re getting closer and closer and closer, and she’s just completely staring in the opposite direction. You’re like, turn around turn around turn around. Right. Oh, my gosh. It’s coming like that. When she does turn around, she freaks out too and she jumps in her car and she tries to start it into stick shift and she she’s they’re perennial.  They’re always having trouble with the stick shift. She’s just grinding the gears like she doesn’t know how to drive.

Craig:  I don’t know why this girl is driving a manual transmission because she is not good at it at all. And the whole every time, like, seriously, every single time she’s in a hurry, she’s just grinding those gears. I’m like, this car is not gonna make

Todd:  it. It’s just moving. You keep

Craig:  grinding the gears like that.

Todd:  She even makes a point she makes a point of it later. It says something like, I don’t know how much longer this car is gonna last. And I’m like, well of course it’s not gonna last any longer. You’re the owner. This is terrible. But then the truck whizzes by and it turns out not to be the truck, which is like a double whammy. It’s like, Oh, it wasn’t the truck. And it’s, oh, that was probably the one person you could have flagged down to save you.  Right. Right. Oh, but and it it turns out to not matter, right? Because he comes out and he finds her.

Craig:  Right. And he’s clearly like traumatized and he can’t even speak, and and that freaks her out. And they’re driving along and she’s trying to get him to talk, but he he can’t or won’t, which is, you know, understandable based on what he has seen. But she looks down and notices that they’re almost out of gas. They to Todd. And they stop at this little roadside diner slash gas station, which is surprisingly populated because it seems to be out in the middle of nowhere and yet it’s full of patrons. And again, this is one of those one of those times where the movie kind of, went against my expectations because they walked in and I expected it to be that typical, you know, walking into the local bar and everybody looks at you and it’s very sinister and people know what’s going on. But it wasn’t.  Everybody does turn to look at them because they draw attention to themselves as soon as they come in, but instead of being sinister, instead they’re actually, you know, helpful. They they call the police for them and and whatnot.

Todd:  Yeah. And that really subverts your expectations there. You you I mean, almost up until the very end, I was wondering, do these do these townspeople know a little more than they’re letting on? And they don’t really act like it, but they’re just so stunned by this couple that they act like stunned people would act. They they they kinda don’t know what to do, and and that can either be, again, something sinister or just stunned people. And in this case, it turns out to be stunned people. Right. But the phone rings. There’s

Clip:  a pay phone on the wall, which tells you this was back in 2001. There’s a pay phone

Todd:  on the wall, and it immediately rings, while brother and sister having this argument and after and after like a minute or 2 of this phone ringing, one of the patrons in the bar just like is, it says, are you gonna answer that? And so he does, and it turns out to be this creepy call from this woman this time. And she seems to it’s almost like she’s watched the movie up until this point and and maybe seen a little ahead. She knew that they were there, she knew she could call them on the phone and get them.

Clip:  Have you seen the cats yet? You and your brother.  Me and my brother.  You and Derry. I saw you with lots of cats.  Who the hell is this? How do you know Derry?  Who is this? Dairy. You know the cats I’m talking about? Who is this? You have a torn shirt. Right? And a bloody hand. Shirts torn just above a small rose tattoo on your stomach.

Craig:  Who is this?

Clip:  How do

Craig:  you know us?

Clip:  You’ve found its house of pain. The what? Those bodies down there, that’s what it likes to call it. It’s house of pain.

Todd:  And if you hear this song, you’re you don’t have much longer to live, and the song is playing in the background and she you it it flashes back. It kind of, the camera moves back to what is the per the, like, the living room of the person who’s actually calling, although they never show us the caller. But then as it pans across the room, it has this old fashioned stereo with an old fashioned record player playing there and this album called Jeepers Creepers sitting there, and that music in the background, that classic Jeepers Creepers song. And she holds the phone up to the speaker so that he can hear that song. And I think he freaks out and hangs up the phone.

Craig:  So she she seems to know something about what’s going on, but but again, she’s, you know, just talking in kind of cryptic phrases, and she does. She plays the song for him and says, if you hear this, run. This song means something really bad for you. And you know, he’s freaked out. I, you know, I think he calls her a bitch and hangs up the phone. And so then they just he he walks to the window and says, Let’s just talk to the cops and get out of here. And that’s when the cops come and, you know, we don’t actually see them recount the whole story which is great. We know what happened.  We don’t need to hear it again. But he tells the cops the story and, you know, they’re of course skeptical as they should be.

Todd:  And even his sister is skeptical. And that’s an interesting point in there, too. I mean, she just sees he’s freaked out and she wonders, you know, he did fall. Did how hard did you hit your head? And that was a great point too for her to show a little bit of skepticism because it does call into question this whole story. And then again, for us in some way, you know, we also question maybe if he saw what he saw, especially those bodies being so well preserved. That’s the thing that, for me anyway, was the detail that threw me into even questioning his narrative.

Craig:  Sure. Yeah. And but so and he’s upset, you know, he’s he wants he in fact, I I think if I remember correctly, he grabs her and says, Tell me you believe me, and then she won’t. And again, Salva does such a good job here of things happening in the background that you’re not paying attention to because your attention is directed elsewhere. But while they’re kind of having this argument while he’s talking to the cops, if you pay attention in the background, all the other restaurant patrons patrons are standing up and moving towards the front of the restaurant. And after, I don’t know, 30 seconds or so, the waitress at the restaurant comes running over to them and says, hey, kids. Isn’t that your car out there? And they say, yeah. And, so they all run out there and the waitress says, there was some guy standing outside your car.  He had picked up big handfuls of the laundry out of the back seat and he was just sniffing it And she kinda disgustingly says or disgustedly says, and it seemed like he was liking it too. Dairy believes that this is the guy that, something that we didn’t mention is when they stopped at the diner, the truck went by again going back, towards the church. And and so they’re confused. They don’t understand how it could have gotten to the church and gotten back, you know, to sniff his laundry or whatever. But obviously that’s troubling regardless of who this guy is or whatever. Somebody sniffing your dirty laundry. I mean, that’s just gross. And, you know, and dairy’s picking up his laundry off the floor or the ground apparently when it’s been dropped and he picks up a pair of underwear and you see that his name is written in it.  And he’s like, and he knows my name too. And I’m like, well, that serves you right for being a 20 something with your name written in your underwear. So

Todd:  that that bit was hilarious. And, and so the cops decide clearly something is a little weird, and so they’re going to send, they they apparently call ahead and have somebody go and investigate the church. They get in their car, and Derry and his sister get in their car, and there’s a small mini caravan out just the 2 of them out to the church. And it’s this is really well shot, I think, because we start out with Derry and his sister, and they’re driving and they’re talking, and the camera is shooting sort of through the window, and we don’t realize the cops are following them quite yet. And then the camera pans slowly backwards and, dollies back to the cops and starts shooting through their window where the cops are talking and they’re discussing. Mhmm. It it’s really a neat way of kind of showing us, oh, yeah. They they have some company here.  A really interesting method of cinematography, I thought.

Craig:  Mhmm. Mhmm.

Clip:  And then

Todd:  this is where the movie, just like the film we watched, just like the film we watched 2 weeks ago is so Todd. And I wasn’t expecting this level of bold where something jumps on the roof of the cops car

Craig:  And Mhmm.

Todd:  The brother and sister don’t notice it because they’re talking and even arguing in the car in front. They’re not really looking behind them, and it’s nighttime. And, but the cops notice it and the 1 cop, the female cop who’s in the passenger side

Craig:  Passenger.

Todd:  Rolls down the window and leans out and is immediately pulled up and out of the car. And the male cop, before he can kinda figure out what’s going on, a hand punches down through the roof and makes a big hole in the roof and pulls his head up through it. And then we see this character standing on top of the car. Again, we can’t get a really good look at his face, but we can see that he’s holding this cop’s head and raises a giant it’s like a mini axe. It’s very decorative, and hogs the, the cop’s head off. I really didn’t expect the movie to get that bold where we would have just an outright attack by this guy, because, again

Clip:  Right.

Todd:  I’m expecting what typically happens in this movie is they arrive at the site, and it’s picked clean, and, you know, there’s no evidence, and they’re still questioning their motives. And I’m, again, I’m still imagining this except for those little details of how why is he getting to where he’s getting so fast, I’m still just imagining this creepy guy who who Exactly. Is is out killing people.

Craig:  Yeah. Up till this point, you just think it’s a creepy guy in a creepy truck, and, all of a sudden it just and you’re kind of lulled into this sense of security because they’ve got a police escort, you know. Like the cops are right there with them. You don’t expect there to be such imminent danger right there. But, yeah, like you said, I I loved the cinematography too because, when we see that it’s the guy standing on top of the moving car, there’s no explanation for how he could have gotten there. You know, they’re going down the highway at high speeds, but we, you know, it cuts back to Darrie and Trish and we’re looking at them from the front. And so if you just look behind them in between them through the back windshield, you can see the guy standing there, but they, you know, they have no idea until the head of the cop lands on their, the hood of the car and kind of rolls back up off the car. And of course, you know, they panic and, both their car and the cop car come to screeching halts, in the middle of the Todd, and Trish and Dary get out, to investigate.  And, Trish is moving towards the car. She’s, you know, it appears that there’s somebody’s in the car and she’s asking if they’re okay. But as she comes a little bit more around the side of the car, she sees the police officer’s head, severed head on the ground. And so she backs up a little bit and the guy, the scary guy gets out of the cop car and this is really where we get the reveal and where we realize this isn’t just some guy. You know, this is some this is something that they are dealing with. And again, you don’t get it’s not like it’s a, you know, a real, real clear shot, but you can tell that this man is monstrous. You know, his head is you know, it’s not human. It’s somewhat human like but, his skin is like Craig and blue and almost, oh gosh, I don’t know, reptilian kind of almost.  And he picks up the head and this is all set against this dimly lit, billboard. And he picks up the head and he’s, you know, just sniffing, taking big sniffs of the head. And eventually, it almost looks like he’s kissing it, like he’s making out with his head and one of them either Trish or Gary says, What is he doing? And the guy starts or the bad guy starts pulling the head away from him and he’s bit the tongue between his lip or between his teeth and is ripping the tongue out. So we know now we are in this kind of movie. You know, they’re up against they’re up against a monster.

Todd:  Yeah. Even this scene is a little funny because the billboard that it’s shot against appears to be like an advertisement for meat or like a butcher shop or something. I was like, wow. It’s like, that was an interesting touch. Yeah. So that happens, and and now they’re we know they’re in real danger. We know this is clearly some superhuman figure, and, he can pretty much do what he wants. And he doesn’t need the truck, to advertise his presence, and yet we don’t know how he got there.  We’re really not clear of his abilities, but we know that he likes to eat

Craig:  these things. They take off down the road just a little ways, and eventually, they stop right in the middle of the road in front of this house. And and Trish says, you know, there’s gotta be a phone in there. So they go up to this house and there’s all these cats there. So again, it comes back to this connection. So whoever that was on the phone knew that they were gonna encounter this place with all these cats. And there’s this crazy cat lady. It’s a great cameo by Eileen Brennan, who you would recognize from a million things, but I always remember her as missus Peacock from Clue.  Mhmm. And, you know, they’re they’re trying to get her to let them use the phone, and, you know, she’s crazy old cat lady and whatever. And then the creeper, the bad guy arrives there and, at first, he kinda standing in front of the, scarecrow, so he looks like the scarecrow, and they make a lot more use of that imagery in the sequel too. But he kills the cat lady.

Todd:  The brother and sister get in the car. They try to drive away. Of course, they’re still having trouble with the car, and as they get on the road, he lands in front of them. And so she decides that she’s going to try to run him over, and we know how great she is at shifting.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  But anyway, as she drives towards him, he does that where he just leaps on top of the car and kind of runs over it like a stuntman, and, and it happens a second time. But the 3rd time she tries to run over him, I think she does it kinda fast or he’s a they’re a little closer. For some reason, she ends up breaking him down.

Craig:  I think she’s being sneaky like, the first two times she had kind of, you know, given him not given him warning intentionally but you know, there was some, you know, she was racing towards him. He had the time to prep for it. On this last time that you’re talking about, I think that she kind of fakes messing with the clutch or having problems with the clutch until he gets pretty close and then she throws it into gear and goes really fast. So she gets him down on the ground.

Todd:  She gets him down on the ground, and it’s kinda funny, actually, that she runs over him and clearly runs over him. There are raises and you could see him, on the ground being run over, And then she backs up and does it again, and then she goes forward and does it again. And each time you’re seeing things break apart on this guy, and you’re thinking, wow. I mean, it doesn’t seem like they should have killed him, but this guy’s gotta be dead.

Clip:  You you think he’s dead?  They never are.

Craig:  It just keeps going back, and you see him getting, you know, ground into the road. And eventually when they kind of stop, they’re looking and we can see, like, one of his legs has been severed off, like, I mean, he’s clearly in bad, bad shape. But then here was another really cool thing, you know, as he’s they’re sitting there looking at him and he’s seemingly dead but then he just kinda starts to twitch a little bit and then out of nowhere pops up from his back this enormous wing. And it looks like, a batwing. And, you know, I just even though I knew, okay, we’re dealing with some kind of monster or whatever. It’s just, you know, a little surprise that I didn’t see coming. And it looked really cool when it happened. I’m like, Oh man, this thing, what else can this thing do? You know, what is this guy? And it was just a really cool image.  So after that happens, she runs over him yet again, and they take off, down the road.

Todd:  Yeah. And the wing comes out, and it twitches a little bit. It’s almost like it’s trying to fly away, and then it bends down and falls. It’s like a dying insect, which almost further it’s almost like, okay. This guy really is dead. At least leans lends credibility to that, that theory anyway when you’re watching the movie. You do get lulled into this sense that, okay. Well, maybe he’s dead, but but maybe there are more of them or something else.

Craig:  I’m not

Todd:  sure what to make of it at that point, but there was a part of me that thought maybe that threat had been neutralized.

Craig:  Right. Yeah. You wonder. And then again, you know, they get to the police station. They get to a police station, you know, they call their parents and and, you know, Trisha’s, like, don’t worry about us. You don’t have to come here. You know, by the time you got here, we could already be home. And so except for the fact that we’re really only about an hour into the movie, you’re thinking, well, it’s over.  But then while they’re there in the police station, this, lady shows up, you know, kind of a, middle aged, black lady shows up, and it turns out that this is the woman who called them on the phone And the cop in the cop station says, Oh yeah. This lady, you know, she thinks she’s our resident psychic, you know, don’t pay her any attention or whatever. And she says to them, to, Darrie and Trish, she says, I don’t care if you believe I’m a psychic. I don’t I don’t care what you believe, but I want to tell you this. And she basically just says that she has dreams and sometimes her dreams reveal things to her. And she says she’s seen his house of pain, you know, that place with all the bodies. She’s seen it in her dreams. And then she kind of gives us really the only information about the backstory of this thing that we get.  She says every 23rd spring for 23 days, it gets to eat. And she says, it eats lungs so it can breathe and it eats eyes so it can see. And she says, you all may have heard it and you may have heard it as badly as it can be hurt, but it it’s not dead and all it has to do is eat to regenerate itself. And as she’s telling this story, we cut to outside and we see the truck pull up to the police station and the feet, you know, come down, on the outside of the car and and we see the creeper, hobbling his way into the police station. And then we cut back into the police station and all the lights go out. The power goes out, the phones are out. And you know at this point that we’re probably gearing up for what’s gonna be the the finale.

Todd:  And that’s, again, what’s so weird about this is, again, where this movie really subverts your expectations. I was not expecting the movie to end up with this kind of a finale where undoubtedly, now everybody realizes that there’s something terrible, and it’s almost like rallying the troops in order to defeat it, kind of like an alien invasion movie. You know? Yeah. It’s it’s it’s not at all like your, again, your typical horror films like this where they they first don’t believe them, and then things happen, but they happen off camera. They happen before the cops can get there, and so people still don’t believe them. No. They know the place is under attack because this thing enters in the basement, and, the one cop goes downstairs, while the lights are out to get all the the prisoners, I guess. I mean, for such a small little town

Craig:  He’s doing a roll call.

Todd:  Yeah. He’s doing a roll call. And for such a tiny little town, with the diner sure is full and, the their little prison in their county jail or or, like, in their police office is so packed with people. Right.

Craig:  Right. And, he’s funny too.

Todd:  It was hilarious, but what was really crazy was, like, he’s panning across the prisoners, and he’s like, you’re here. Yep. You’re here, there, you wake up, blah blah blah. He comes to this last set of prisoners, and they’re just like against the wall terrified, and they’re looking over at him, and they they motion in front of them. He pans over, and there the bars of the prison of the cell have been totally bent in and opened up. And there is the back of this creature. There are no clothes on it anymore, and you could see its wings kind of folded up in there, and it’s all scaly and gross, and it’s clearly eating one of the other prisoners. Mhmm.  And immediately, you know, he calls over the Craig, something bad’s going on down here. It’s coming up. And so the police upstairs, gather together and start slowly approaching the stairway to the downstairs. In the meantime, the psychic lady is trying to get Justin and his sister or Justin, Darren and Derry and his sister out of there. She’s like, we shouldn’t be sticking around, and I know I know the way out. And so she kind of Right. Went in a different direction to try to, to get them out of the police station.

Craig:  The psychic lady, she says to them, you know, we’ve gotta get you out of here because I’ve seen this. He finds you here. So we’ve gotta get you out of here. And so she takes them. I don’t know where she’s taking them out. She’s trying to find a backdoor or whatever. Meanwhile, the cops are dealing with the creeper. You know, we’re hearing a conversation over walkie talkies.  There’s a group of police downstairs and they’re saying, this guy, you know, nothing hurts him. He’s got, he must have some weird body armor or something. And and he says, we lost him. We lost him. He’s he’s crawling on the walls and he’s headed up your way. And so the, the cops who are upstairs are waiting looking around, and finally it, you know, it does appear. It kills one of the cops, and, then, we get back to dairy and Trish and the psychic who have gotten to the backdoor only to find that because the electricity has gone out, all the automatic locks have locked. So they’re stuck there.  And and they’re, you know, just kind of, you know, they don’t know what to do. They’re they’re bantering back and forth. You know, Trish is blaming the psychic, and she says, I don’t know everything. You know, I I just try to get you out of here. And then we see, the creeper pop his head up around the from around the corner in the hallway, and he scurries. And like you said, he’s not wearing any clothes anymore so he’s just full out creature and he scurries along the wall. Darrie and Trish take off running and the psychic kinda drops to her knees and starts to Craig. And when she opens her eyes and looks up, it looks like it is gone by her, but then it pops up behind her and grabs her by the hair and kind of pulls her hair back and it gives her a great big sniff and then it just takes off and leaves her alone and goes off looking for Gary and Trish.  And they have made their way into like an interrogation room or something. They don’t know what to do. Trish is standing, you know, she’s looking in this big mirror which then we get to see from the other side. It’s actually a two way mirror and there’s kind of a cool scene where she’s on the side of it that you can’t see through and the creepers on the side of it that you can and he’s kind of sniffing her through the mirror and she doesn’t realize that she’s mere centimeters away, from this monster. But then, it breaks through the window and it grabs the both of them and it’s sniffing them both and you don’t know what’s gonna happen because the psychic told them that it just wants one of them. There’s one of them that it wants and they don’t know which one it is. So so I remember the first time seeing it not knowing, you know, is it is it gonna take them both? Is it gonna be indiscriminate? Does it really want one of them? If so, which one and why and And why. Right.  Right.

Todd:  That’s the big question because you’re you’re all you’re always looking for a motive. Right? Okay. Yeah. It it wants people, and it it eats to regenerate, but why is it has it honed in on these 2? Is it just because they’ve disturbed him? Maybe that’s the case, but then when the psychic talks about, you know, everything that the psychic says, things seem a little intentional, that he selected one of them somehow. It’s like, what does he want? What does he want from them? There is that implication that maybe it’s actually the girl, and even though we think he’s mad at the guy for going down in the lair, that maybe it’s actually the girl he wants. Then you’re thinking, Well, is there something historic? Are we gonna get some crazy twist? I know my mind was going in about 15 different directions while this was happening, and I was hoping for a big reveal. And, the cops are standing there as well, holding guns out at them, ready to shoot. There’s no question that this is his demon.  Just to make it absolutely apparent, there’s a point where they shine a light on him and the demon, like, recoils back and as though threatened kind of like the, dinosaurs in Jurassic Park.

Craig:  Yeah. The

Todd:  ones that spit, acid. Like these parts, these I don’t even know what to call them. Just like a flare thing from his face opens up. Yeah. It actually reminded me of predator. You know, I was thinking predator.

Craig:  Yes. Yes. And A lot like that. Yeah.

Todd:  And he kinda hisses like he’s a creature that’s being,

Craig:  Oh, no. I was because I know it is, but it’s it’s exactly what you said. It’s almost like, you know, defensive, you know, rearing up to show his scariest visage, because he literally is cornered. But at by this point, he has sniffed them both. He’s licked Trish’s face. I mean, it’s all very tense and and creepy, but he throws Trish to the side. And so he’s holding on to dairy and it’s just a standoff, you know. He’s standing there in the window.  The police, it looks like a SWAT team are standing all around with their guns drawn, and, Trish starts talking to this thing.

Clip:  You don’t want him. Whatever you want, You can take it from me. You don’t want Terry? No. You don’t.

Craig:  Don’t you don’t you be a hero?

Clip:  I have everything the

Craig:  is listening and considering it. And again, it was just you know, I thought it was set up so well because I didn’t know what was gonna happen. I legitimately thought, maybe he’s gonna do it. Maybe he’ll do the trade off.

Todd:  Yeah. But Again, this would be one of those moments where he’s tricked into doing a trade off, and during the trade off, you know, they’re able to get him somehow. And Right. But, no, he he just almost smiles for a second and turns around and dives out the window and flies away with dairy, in his arms.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Todd:  Again, totally.

Craig:  And it it’s a really cool image. Trish runs downstairs really fast, apparently, and runs out the front door and is kind of chasing after and it’s just really kind of a cool image. You know, it’s a full moon and you just kind of see the silhouette of this giant bat like creature, with with the silhouette of dairy dangling below and it, you know, Trish is chasing and yelling dairy’s name and then it’s just gone. You know, it it it flies off and it’s it’s gone. And then we cut to what is the next morning, you know, Trish is still there at the police station alone. Well, I mean, the cops are there. And the, psychic lady comes in and says, Your parents just got here. And Trish says, Gary had asked at one point, Do your dreams always come true? And so Trish says, You never answer them.  You know, Do your dreams always come true? And the psychic lady just says, I’m just a crazy

Clip:  Craig lady, you know, ask anybody around here. They’ll tell you, I’m

Craig:  just a crazy old lady. Don’t listen anything I say. And Trish walks outside and kinda looks up and sees a crow flying around. There had been lots of crows, at that old church, where he had had all his bodies. And, I didn’t really know what to expect. And then, we just cut to this, what seems to be like an old abandoned factory or plant or something?

Clip:  Yeah.

Todd:  It looks to me like an oil refinery. Camera pans through slowly, and we’re obviously going down into this creature’s new lair and, we pan slowly into this room and we do see the creature in there and he’s working and slowly coming in to audible focus in the background is that song Jeepers Creepers that we’ve been waiting for Yep. Where we know this guy’s in trouble and it pans around and it pans up this body that’s kind of propped up, and we realize it’s Justin. I’m sorry, Todd. And, as it pans slowly up and to his face, his eyes are completely gone. And it’s not just like his eyes have been gouged out, but it’s like his the whole back side of his head has been removed. So it’s just his face with his open eyes there shining through, and at that moment, the monster kind of comes up behind there, and his eyes are in the eye holes, and you can see that now he has dairy’s eyes. And that’s And it’s creepy.

Craig:  I mean, and that’s and it just cuts to black. And, it I I love that last image. I mean, it’s grotesque. It’s it’s gory, but when, you know, the the creature pops up and, you know, it’s it’s just this blue human looking eye, you definitely get the implication that it’s it’s Derry’s eyes. In fact, the actor who plays, the the creeper, his name is Jonathan Breck. That wasn’t even really him. They put, they put, Justin Long in the creeper makeup just for that last scene, so that it would really be his eye that, that looks through. And then that’s it.  I mean if you want to stick around through all the credits at the very end after the credits you see the, the creepers van drive across the screen and honk Craig, I guess, implying that he’s still, running around. But, that’s pretty much it. Yeah. So what’d you think?

Todd:  I liked it. I really did, and I just liked it that it just subverted my expectations every step of the way, and it was wholly original. I mean, I really just have not seen a horror movie like this, that’s just so bold and and also a little weird. I mean, arguably, the idea of introducing the psychic to kind of move the plot along and kind of give them information that they wouldn’t normally have is a little silly. That was maybe the only part of the film that kinda threw it for me a little bit, is that one thing that felt a little out of place and maybe a little hokey and maybe a little lazy. Sure. But but and but, of course, it adds the mystery, but there’s so many mysteries in this movie. There’s so many things that you just don’t ever know.  Like, what’s the significance of this song? Why is this guy playing this song while he’s except that, oh, you know, the movie’s called Jeepers Creepers. The line is Jeepers Creepers, where’d you get those eyes? And of course Right. Right. That tag at the end of him getting his eyes. But it doesn’t make a lot of sense, unless this monster has a sick sense of humor and really knows classic American songs really well or something. And Right. I I I almost wanted to do the math and go back another 23 years from there. And maybe 23 years prior to 1978, that was a popular song.  So maybe the last time he was out there moving around, he’d heard it. And Right. You know it but again, there that goes unexplained. Where he’s from and what his nature is is totally unexplained. Is he like a demon from hell? Is he an alien? Is he just something natural that’s that’s, you know, kind of long gone? That’s never really explained. It doesn’t really need to be, but it does leave it ripe for a sequel. And, I guess Todd did get a sequel. Have you seen the sequel?

Craig:  It did. I have. And there are actually people, quite a few people really who think that the sequel is actually a better movie. I don’t know if I would go that far, but as far as sequels are concerned, especially with horror sequels, you know, you never know what you’re gonna get. But this sequel, is actually pretty good. It picks up the very next day. When Victor Salva did this movie, he didn’t plan to do a sequel. But the first one was successful enough that the studio wanted a sequel and he said, fine.  I’ll do a sequel, but the only way that I’ll do it is if it’s set during the same time period. It’s the next day right after the events of the first one have happened, and it’s the 23rd day of this spree. What he was thinking was, if if I do that, okay, we can have that one more movie, but unless then they want to, you know, project 23 years into the future, there wouldn’t be any logical way to do, another direct sequel. But I think the second one is actually pretty good. You do get a little bit more backstory, on the creature. Not a lot, but a little bit more. And, it seems like because they don’t have to shroud the the creature in mystery, which it works so well in the in the first movie, but it wouldn’t work in the second movie because we already know what it is. So there I I think that the the actor, who plays the creeper gets to have a little bit more fun, in the second one, you know, there’s more close-up shots of him.  You kinda do seem to get the sense that he does have kind of a sadistic sense of humor. And, it introduces some new characters. The only returning character, in the sequel, that I remember is the creeper himself. But they are act and and like I said, I liked it. I remember I when it came out, I liked it enough that I bought it. I’ve got it somewhere. But there’s been a lot of demand. Oh, the one thing that I didn’t like about the sequel is that the truck isn’t in it at all.  And I think that the truck is so menacing, and other, other fans have said the same thing. So now it’s been gestating forever, but supposedly, Jeepers Creepers 3 is in preproduction. And it’s it’s been, you know, like 16, 17 years since the, first one. So they in fact are gonna have it be or at least this is the plan as it stands now or at least last that I’ve heard. It’s going to be 23 years later and we’re going to return to the character of Trish who is going to be played by the same actress and she’s gonna be a successful adult now with a teenage son of her own, but she keeps having these nightmares, that her son will meet the same fate that her brother did. And so she hooks up with one of the characters from the sequel to try to hunt down the creeper and and stop it, once and for all. And I hope the movie gets made, it’s tentatively titled, Jeepers Creepers 3. It’s been like I said, it’s been for a few years.  It’s been announced. You know, it’s got it’s it’s got an IMDB page. It says it’s in preproduction. It it it, you know, there’s there’s some backlash, in the horror community and just in general still against Victor Salva because of his, seedy past. You know, there are people out there who, because of his conviction, you know, on on child molestation charges. There are some people who feel very firmly that, he shouldn’t be supported, in any way. I have really mixed feelings about it. You know, the guy was caught.  He did his time. That doesn’t excuse anything. And I I don’t think anyone should ever forget that. But, you know, he paid his dues. He is a talented guy. So if if he can get the studio to back him, I hope that, we get a third entry in this franchise. I think you’d like the sequel. You should check it out.

Todd:  Yeah. I think I will actually. I’m very interested to see where he takes us on the next day. It it’s and it and you know what? It has a great ending. I love it when horror films, it’s not positive.

Craig:  You know? Right. It’s dreary.

Todd:  It’s dreary, and, that that sometimes works, and sometimes it seems like a cop out. In this case, it seemed like it was the only way that this movie could have ended because this monster is so menacing, which makes it a pretty iconic figure. And if he does get a third one made, you know, it could be one of those characters that kinda cemented into the Halloween, Right. Ouvoir, you know, with Freddie and and Right. Jason and all that. Although it’s a little harder to dress up as the creeper, I’d have to say. Sure. No.  I liked it. Thank you. Thank you very much for introducing this to me. It was a good movie.

Craig:  No problem. I’m glad you liked it.

Todd:  I do recommend it, especially if you’re looking for something a little different. Alright. Well, thank you again for another episode of 2 guys and a chainsaw. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend. You can like us on Facebook, we have a page there. We’re available on Stitcher and in iTunes. Please share this with a friend, and please drop us a comment in one of these places to let us know what you think and if there are any movies coming up that you’d like us to Todd review. Until then, I’m Todd

Craig:  And I’m Craig.

Todd:  With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

One of Jack Nicholson’s first film roles is also a surprisingly good little horror comedy, even by today’s standards. Yeah, there is the inherent 1960’s goofiness, but even much of that is clearly intentional. Give this short little movie a shot and you may just be surprised (and you can watch it for free here):

Colorized version:

Original B&W:

Little Shop of Horrors (1960)

Episode 41, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Podcast

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys And A Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: I’m Craig.

Todd: And today, Craig and I decided to go with the 1960 version of Little Shop of Horrors. Now I don’t know Craig if well, I guess I’m just gonna out you here. Craig has been That’s cool. Craig has been performing in a the musical version of Little Shop of tours, this last week in our community theater. How’s that been going, Craig?

Craig: It went great. It’s actually over now, but, it went really well. It was a really fun group of people to work with, and, it was a show that I’d wanted to do for a really, really long time. So it was a really, really good experience.

Todd: Oh, that’s wonderful. You you played Seymour, didn’t you?

Craig: I did. And I did. And, you know, this, what the the film that we watched For today, is the 19 sixties version, which I had never seen. You know? I’ve been watching the 1980 Six version, I believe. The one with Rick Moranis, and Ellen Green. I’ve been watching that since I was a little kid, and I’ve always loved that movie. And so, you know, this summer, I had the opportunity to do the play version, which the the Rick Moranis movie is actually based on. So I had never seen this 19 sixties version until today, and it was kinda cool to compare similarities and differences and just see the original source material.

Todd: Yeah. What did you think?

Craig: I don’t you know, I didn’t really have much expectation going in. I was surprised kind of, I guess, that I had never watched it just I’ve been such a big fan of the musical and the the musical movie, I knew very little about it. I remember when I was a kid seeing, the the, you know, the VHS, at the video store, which always very prominently featured Jack Nicholson on the cover. And, I was always kinda confused by that. I don’t think that, you know, when I was little, I really understood the concept of remakes and different versions of things. And, so, watching it today, going in with very little expectation, I I thought it was cute. I thought it was was Charming. And I was actually, surprised by how closely both the Broadway show and, the movie musical follow it.

Craig: Clearly, obviously, there’s difference, differences. You know, this original is not a musical. But beyond that, there are a lot of similarities striking similarities. Even some, you know, some of the lines clearly They lifted from the source, and, so it was fun. It was fun to watch.

Todd: Yeah. You know, when I was a kid, this is a movie that I had seen a few times, and it was a little notorious for me. I think because you saw it everywhere, because, this is a Roger Corman film, and it was one that he shot Pretty quickly. I think, actually, all of the scenes that happen indoors in the interiors take place over 2 days. I mean, he shot them over 2 days.

Craig: Right.

Todd: Because, he was very well known for, getting the most out of his money, and he would shoot a film. And we’ve talked about this before. He would shoot a film, and then he would still have time left over on everybody’s contract and still have these sets left over.

Clip: And so he’d quickly have somebody whip up a screenplay, and he’d

Todd: shoot another movie. And sometimes that 2nd movie would do even better than the first. This, movie Was shot on old sets from another film that he did called Buckets of Blood, and he was able to convince, whoever owned the studio that he was, shooting in to let him use the sets for a little while longer, and they quickly whipped this thing together. And, obviously, it turned out to have a lot more staying power than buckets of blood, Although it didn’t Right. Quite as well at the time. I think he was so disappointed in the box office turnout for this little film that he didn’t even bother to renew the copyright, and so it slipped into the public domain. And so you’ve been able to buy this, like, at dollar stores and on those Cheap DVD sets with a bunch of films. It’s shown up on TV quite a few times, and all of the the horror movie hosts like Elvira and those folks, have done this movie just because it’s been so available and and free to use.

Craig: Right. And because it’s public domain, it’s legally available on YouTube, and that’s, how I watched it today. Yeah. From from what I understand, this almost was was the result of, like, a bet or a dare. Corman, talked to I don’t remember if it was a friend or his brother or something along those lines, and he bet that he could, shoot a movie, Rehearse and shoot a movie, in a couple of days, and that’s kind of, where its notoriety came from initially, I guess. From what I’ve read, In reality, he actually rehearsed the actors for a few days before shooting, but he did most of the principal shooting, like you said, in those 2 days. And then they they did do some, some reshoots in in the subsequent weeks, but, even even that, You know, they shot this on, a budget of $30,000 over just a couple of days, and I was really impressed because I thought as far as the Filmmaking went it was really competent. I mean, you would think, you know, something that was done so on the fly that That would be pretty obvious, but, I think that it stands up with any of those, you know, b movie, monster movies, from this era.

Todd: Oh, I totally agree, and I think a lot of that probably has to do with the competence of the acting. I mean, most of the people in here are pretty seasoned actors even if they’re seasoned in low budget films. They’re clearly very, very competent and very good at what they do. The star, Seymour Krelborn, is played by a guy named Jonathan Hayes, who you’re not gonna see in a lot of films, but He was in quite a few of Roger Corman’s movies before this, so he was well seasoned in the Corman shop. Jack Nicholson, this was one of his first Movie roles. I think it might have been

Craig: Yeah. I think it was his 3rd.

Todd: Mhmm. And then Dick Miller, who we’ve talked about before, is in this film too. And, and he just keeps popping up, and he was a mainstay of Corman’s. In fact, he starred in Buckets of Blood, which was the movie that Corman shot right before this.

Craig: Right. And I and I read that Corman wanted him to play the role of Seymour, but he just didn’t want to, for whatever reason. So he turned it down and ended up playing a smaller supporting role. But all of the principal actors here, Jonathan Haidt, you said, played Seymour, Jackie Joseph who played Audrey, and Mel Wells who played Mushnik, the 3 central characters. I think all of them had worked with Corman fairly extensively, And, so, you know, that may have and that kind of struck a chord with me too because, you know, like, I just did this with our community theater who is you know, we’re I’m in a small community, and so we I work with these same people over and over again. So it was kinda cool to see another group of people

Clip: who were familiar with one

Craig: another, who had worked with one another before, and seeing how, you know, they could put something together that, was really pretty and and kind of has stood the test of time. Probably, for, you know, the reasons that you already said because, you know, it’s public domain, so it got a lot of exposure. And then also because, the the musical and the movie of the musical went on to be successful and have a large Called Following, and I’m I’m sure that has something to do with why this has kind of, stayed in the mainstream somewhat. But yeah. Cool.

Todd: Well yeah. And, you know, the the movie itself really lends itself well to a play. In fact, I was watching this with my wife, and she, after a little while, asked me. She said, did this used to be a play? And I said, no, but it’s clearly filmed like a play. It’s clearly written like a play would be. You know, it’s limited mostly to those couple interiors of Mushnik’s flower shop, and later on, the dentist shop for a couple scenes, but the whole thing is staged. In fact, even the writing and the jokes And kind of the way it it moves and flows is very reminiscent of a play, and I I think a lot of that too, you know, the way that they filmed it, they were filming it very quickly. A lot of it was done only in one take, and, Roger Corman, even in order to save time, used multiple cameras, which is pretty unusual for a movie.

Todd: So they had the 1 setup. The whole set was lit, so they could move anybody at every anywhere they needed to without having to relight, you know, things for different shots. And then they were covering everything with a couple different cameras at once, so, boom, you know, you do a whole section, and boom, you’re done. And and you can tell In the movie that a lot of this is is really one take. I mean, if you’re paying attention, there’s the continuity between shots. It’s obvious that this is just the same, take from a different angle, which is really unusual for a movie, but, again, when you watch this, you can’t help but think, Man, this would make a really good play. And, clearly, that that’s what those guys had in mind when they turned it into a musical.

Craig: Right. Right. And it’s fun. You know, it’s it’s a goofy we, you know, we do all kinds of of movies. We talk about all kinds of movies and and I think that both of us, You know, like, you know, diversity and horror. This one, you know, it’s it’s again, it’s filmed in 1960 and so, of course, It’s a a, you know, really light on any kind of violence or gore. There’s there’s very little if any at all. And it’s it’s not Scary.

Craig: You know, what they what they did is they basically took a horror premise and kind of filmed it as a comedy, and it’s it’s it’s much funnier than it is scary at all. And and and that’s fine. You know? I I knew that going in, and that wasn’t a concern for me. But, The premise is is simple and cute, and, like, they had thrown around several different ideas, I guess, in prepping. You know, they just decided we’re gonna make a movie. Let’s, You know, let’s brainstorm some ideas. And, initially, they had thought about, kind of a a crazy chef, who, You know, kill people and cut them up and serve them in his food, and, you know, they kinda passed on that idea. At one point, it was gonna be kind of a play on a Dracula kind of thing.

Craig: And, eventually, after a night of drinking and brainstorming, one of the writers said, well, what if we do a killer plant, a man eating plant? And from what I’ve read, Corman, who had had several drinks at that point said, That’s it. Let’s do it. And they just rolled from there.

Todd: Yeah. And and and, again, as you said, it’s really cute, and it’s It’s original. I mean, it’s really pretty original for its time. I don’t know if anybody had ever really done this. I mean, they are they were, like, Eating man eating plant films. I’m not sure how soon before or after this. Usually, they were aliens, you know, that came in from somewhere else and had kind of a plant form. But in this, you just have this flower shop, and it’s run by this guy named mister Mushnik who, of course, is upset because His flower shop is in Skid Row, which is the bad part of town, and he doesn’t get any business.

Todd: And He’s thinking about closing it up, and he’s mad at all of his his basically, his 2 employees who are Audrey, who’s this just ditzy girl, and, Seymour, who’s this klutzy guy. And the point that they play up is klutsiness in this movie.

Craig: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the the In the very beginning of the movie, you know, it opens well, actually, no. It it opens and this was one of the differences. It it starts with this kind of interesting, you know, the credit sequences over this Draded, version of Skid Row. And then it sounds almost like Dragnet. You get, like, the detective voice over.

Clip: My name is Sergeant Joe Fink. Working the 24 hour shift out of homicide. And this is my workshop. The part of town that everybody knows about but that nobody wants to see. Where the tragedies are deeper, the ecstasies wilder, and the crime rate consistently higher than anywhere else. Skid Row. The most terrifying period in the history of my beat began in a little rundown floor shop called Mushniks.

Clip: And, of

Craig: course, that’s an element that they left out of, the the play and and the movie musical, and and I think rightly so. You know, it it really seems Kind of forced and and unnecessary. But, yeah, then we get right into the the flower shop where we meet the principal characters and, Seymour’s 1st entrance, you know, you hear him singing in the back and and Mushnik kind of, yells at him or whatever. But when he comes out, you know, it’s a total Pratfall, right into the scene. And again, you know, that’s something that, the play, you know, picked right up. You know, I’m bruised from head to toe from that Pratfall every night. But, it it’s it’s cute. And, you know, it’s it’s cutesy from then on.

Craig: Lots of little jokes. I I think that, you know, there’s quite a few, jokes about Jewish culture that I don’t even really think that I necessarily got. In fact, they had some problems with distribution because distributors were afraid that people would view it as being anti Semitic. I didn’t see that at all, and Corman said, you know, that was not his intention at all, you know, these were just Jewish characters and, you know, they played into the comedy. But yeah. So it’s the it’s the little flower shop. It’s failing. Seymour, is a Klutz.

Craig: He’s you know, he can’t do anything right. He’s messing up flower orders. He’s breaking stuff. And so Mushnik Fires him. He says, you’re fired. And, Audrey says, well, hold on a second. Seymour has been working on this new plant. You ought to take a look at it.

Craig: And so Seymour comes Out with this little what looks like, you know, a little kind of, Venus flytrap, looking thing. And it’s Cheap looking, you know, like, it’s obviously it’s obviously, you know, just a cheap prop. It doesn’t really look like plant life at all. But it’s just this cute little thing, and and they start talking about it, Nick. And, it moves it moves on from there.

Todd: Yeah. You know, the the dialogue is so Funny and snappy, and that’s something that I had forgotten about when I was a kid. I think because a lot of these jokes just went right over my head. I as a kid, I really wanted this to be a horror film, And, I wasn’t looking for the comedy, and I didn’t find it. But, man, as an adult, this this comes at you. It’s in spades, and that’s again why it feels so much like a play. It’s just really funny, snappy dialogue, and I’ve gotta give credit, to the writer here, Charles Griffith, who, you know, this wasn’t his 1st rodeo. He actually wrote most of core most of what he wrote were Corman films.

Todd: A lot of them some of Corman’s most, Most, notorious ones. And I I I love the part where Seymour, like, Bushticks talking to missus Shiva, who keeps coming in. And and that’s another Jewish joke. This woman keeps coming, getting buying flowers for these dead oh, so and so died, and I’ve gotta get flowers. I don’t know. So it’s like her his only customer is this woman who just needs flowers for a funeral that’s happening every other day. And, Yeah.

Craig: And I and I apologize if we have Jewish listeners because I know so little about the Jewish culture. But from what I understand, even the name Shiva, Shiva is kind of, I think, a Hebrew death ceremony kind of maybe the equivalent of awake or something. And, yeah, every time she comes in, it’s somebody new in her family has died. And it’s just a running gag, and there are lots of running gags like that. And they they they play well. They play funny.

Todd: Oh, Dick Miller’s character who loves to eat He gets the flowers just so he could eat them, which is insane. It he goes for being this guy who is gonna be the star to this It this weird bit part, but it’s so cute. I I don’t know. It’s just kinda funny. Cute. Every now and then, he pops in, and he’s kind of the guy in the scene makes little comments, and he’s the one who actually comments. He says, you know, mister Mushnik, if he’s got this weird plant, this plant could become really popular and really save your shop. And and so, he he does have an an important role to play, but otherwise, he’s just like whipping out a salt shaker every now and then I’m sprinkling it on some carnations and just munching down on them.

Craig: Right. And, you know, we have like you said, we talked about Dick Miller and his Roger Corman connection a bunch of times. Which, which version of this did you watch? Did you watch the original black and white or the colorized?

Todd: I watched the black and white version.

Craig: Okay. I was going to. I had every intention of watching the black and white, but the transfer that I was watching was really blurry. And so after the first 5 minutes, I I switched over to, you know, again just on YouTube. I switched over to the colorized version, and it had been so blurry that I hadn’t even realized that that was Dick Miller.

Todd: Oh, no.

Craig: And when he and when he popped up on stage or or not on stage, I guess, on screen, in color, like, A huge smile just came across my face. Like, this guy is so charming and cute and charismatic, And you’ve seen him in so many things and he’s just got this, you know, funny air about him. And here he is eating these flowers and, just so silly and and he really, you know, he’s he’s a big, bonus, in this movie. And I didn’t know this until after, you know. Again, like I said, we’ve talked about him a bunch of times, and the thing that I always remember him from, is, Gremlins, and and Gremlins 2. And, after the movie, when I was, you know, looking at some research and whatnot, I saw that Jackie Joseph, who played Audrey, actually played opposite him, played his wife in both the Gremlins movies. And again, it was just a connection that made me smile and, you know, really brought back memories from my childhood, and that was a lot of fun too.

Todd: Well, you know, this movie is just filled with a lot of hilarious, almost goofball jokes. Seymour then goes home, and we are introduced to his mother, who’s this invalid, who is Kind of a hypochondriac. Obviously, feigning sick most of the time, but, really, she just wants Seymour to get him, her her tonic, which is really just a so she’s really just an alcoholic who’s Yeah. Tonic with, like, 90% alcohol. Is that in the Is that in the musical version? I can’t remember.

Craig: No. No. In the musical version, Seymour is an orphan. His his parents don’t play in. And again, I can totally see why they made that decision. His the, you know, the character of the mother is just there for, for comedy. And it works in the movie. It’s really funny.

Craig: You know, like you said, when he walks in the house, the radio is playing and and the the DJ gives the Call letters, and then he says, you’ve been listening to, you know, w k I t or whatever. Music for invalids. Music for old invalids. And, like, it’s, you know, it’s It’s goofy and silly, and she’s all the time, you know, talking about all of these different, ailments that she has. Like you said, it’s all really just a cover for the fact that she just wants to be drunk all the time.

Clip: And you know sympathy for your poor mother Laughing at her and mocking her realness and she’s got 1 foot in the grave?

Clip: Oh, I didn’t mean it.

Clip: Oh, you never mean it. Come on. Look at my tongue.

Clip: A tongue’s a tongue, ma. They all look the same to me. Oh,

Clip: did you stop at doctor Mallard’s

Clip: and get the results on my tests?

Clip: Yeah. He said there’s nothing wrong with you.

Clip: Oh, not doctor Mallory. He he’s 1 doctor I thought would tell the truth.

Clip: He said you should be playing full back for the Rams.

Clip: He wants me dead. I’ll bet he’s assistant coroner.

Todd: Well, his flower starts to grow a little bit. The thing that he recognizes, Basically, because he’s moving another plant on the table to make way for the other flower, which has, I guess, a thorn in it, and it cuts him. And the plant opens up a little bit, and clearly, is moved by the blood. It wants the blood. And Yeah. So he’s, like, you really you you need blood, and so He starts to squeeze some of the blood out of his finger into the plant, and then it cuts to what we only know is a few days later, because It’s Seymour now it’s Seymour’s fingers. Every single one of them are bandaged. Right.

Todd: And, he’s been feeding the plant, and the plant’s been growing, because he’s been feeding it blood, but, of course, he hasn’t been telling anybody. The only thing that’s that’s been happening is that Mushnik’s been getting more business because the plants become a little more notorious. And there are a couple of, characters, so I was also trying to remember if they were in the musical. The the character of the 2 high school girls?

Craig: They’re not in the musical but they’re combined into a different character, just a customer. And and all of the little stuff that they do, these girls they come in, they’re impressed by this strange and unusual to a plant, and then Mushnik says something like You

Clip: would like maybe to buy something.

Clip: Well, we don’t have any money except $2,000, But that’s just to spend on flowers. So we don’t have any of our own. Isn’t that a drag?

Clip: You got just $2,000 just for to Spend on flowers?

Clip: That’s right.

Clip: Who died? The Chamber of Commerce?

Craig: And, apparently, You know, they are in charge. There’s like a, a rose festival or something that they’re in charge of all the decorations for. And, All of that is, you know, combined into different aspects in the play. But again, you know, they these girls, you know, As it would happen in real life because this nerdy little guy invented this cool plant, like, they’re fawning all over him and screaming like he’s the Beatles and, They’re, you know, they’re gonna they’re gonna buy all the flowers for this rose festival there. And, again, you know, it’s just It’s setting it up so that, you know, Audrey junior in the musical, they changed it to Audrey excuse me, Audrey 2, but in the play that, Seymour has named it Audrey junior, the plant is going to be responsible for the business thriving. And so there’s a lot at stake, because, after the girls kind of fawn over the plants a little bit, missus Shiva comes back in and, you know, claims that somebody else has died and then she said, yes. I need some flowers, but you ought to give some flowers to that dead plant over there too. And they look over and Audrey junior has wilted and browned and is now dying.

Craig: And so, Seymour figures he’s gonna have to figure out a way, to continue to feed it so that business will continue to thrive because everybody’s counting on him. And here’s one of the things that differed, differs in in the musical. The first time Seymour goes out looking for food, and it’s not really clear, you know, what he’s anticipating finding. Yeah. But he goes to there he goes to the railroad tracks, And, he sees a bottle sitting on, like, a ledge, and he picks up a big rock to throw at the bottle, and it’s such a funny gag. Like, as soon as he throws it, This guy pops up from behind the ledge and reaches for the bottle like he’s gonna drink it. It’s booze or whatever, and the rock hits him in the head instead of hitting, the bottle, and then he gets up and stumbles right in front of the train and is killed. So Seymour now has something that he can give to the plant.

Craig: He didn’t act you know, there was no malicious intent. He didn’t murder somebody. It was an accident, and that’s a little bit different, than the musical and the movie, and and silly and so contrived, you know. Oh, yeah. But But but you don’t care. You know? Like, it’s obviously playing it for the fun. It’s playing it for the joke. And for that reason, it works.

Craig: And so he does, you know, he he feeds body parts to the plant, and the next day, the plant has grown even larger, really large. And that was one of the things that I thought was funny, you know, in our production, in most productions I’ve seen, there’s usually 3 different sizes of plants. There’s a little tiny one, And then there’s kind of a medium sized one, and then there’s the great big one that can eventually eat whole people. And it seemed like in the movie, They kind of had the same constraints as far as props go, but they kept trying to make it as fee as Seymour continued to feed people to it. It’s like they kept trying to make it look bigger and bigger, but it seemed like the same prop to me. Is it to you?

Todd: Yeah. Like, maybe they just put the camera a little Closer to it or is Yeah.

Craig: You’re right.

Todd: Yeah. It really did. It’s not until it’s gigantic that, that it looks any different, you know, as soon as it’s big enough for people to kind of climb into. Right. But it always looks fake. I mean, it’s the fakest looking Oh, yeah. Plant prop. It’s like paper mache.

Craig: And Oh, yeah. It’s really it’s goofy.

Todd: And that’s really the only semi gross part of it is, I think, is when he’s got, like, foot or a hand, and he’s squeezing a piece into, the plant that it it’s it’s kind of a Wait.

Craig: But, again, it’s really not

Todd: No. It’s not your word.

Clip: I mean, I guess

Craig: no. And it’s obvious that, you know, these they’re obviously props. You know? They look like plastic props. And I’m you know, whether that was budget or time constraint or even a deliberate choice, which I almost feel like It may be a very well have been a deliberate choice to not go for realism. You know, what would be the point of going for realism in this goofy thing?

Clip: Oh, yeah.

Craig: So, I I thought it was I thought it was hilarious. I was, you know, chuckling the whole time.

Todd: Yeah. It was, you you’re right. I think that’s and, again, we’re we’re at a time in movie making where People really weren’t going for major gore, at least not yet. Definitely not Roger Corman. He wasn’t doing that until a little later. But it’s funny when it cuts from him Feeding the plant. There are lots of neat little touches in this movie. It cuts straight from him feeding the plant, I believe, to mister Mushnik eating some steak in a restaurant, And he’s eating with Audrey.

Todd: And so am I to understand that their relationship is he’s her grandfather?

Craig: I don’t know. I never really Figured that out. And and it kinda threw me because, again, this doesn’t happen in the musical. Yeah. They’re out. It almost seems like they’re on a date. Mhmm. I I couldn’t figure out what their relationship was.

Craig: She calls him by his first name. So I don’t know. I I I guess maybe they’re just friends because they work together. Later on, you know, as Seymour becomes more famous, it becomes obvious that Audrey is kind of interested in him and Seymour eventually asks her out on a date, and mister Muschate doesn’t have any problem with that. It doesn’t seem like, you know, they’re in a relationship or anything. So I was I was a little thrown. I wasn’t exactly sure what the relationship was, but in the end, it doesn’t really matter. It was really just more of a way, you know, to kind of have them outside of the shop so that Seymour could be in the shop Feeding body parts to the plant, and then mister Mushnik, who had forgotten his money at the shop, has to go back And he sees Seymour feeding body parts to the plant, and that’s something that’s different in this movie too.

Craig: Mister Mushnik doesn’t figure it out until quite a bit later. And in the in the musical, when mister Mushnik finds out, he does have, you know, his conscious bothers him and and he wants to have Seymour, turn himself in. And in the musical, to avoid that happening, Seymour allows the plant to eat mister Mushnik, and none of that happens here. Instead, Mushnik sees it and he’s got, you know, kind of his conscious is bothering him. But because business is going so well, He kinda lets it slide and Seymour tells him, you know, I cross these 2 different types of plants. One of them is a flytrap. And typically with flytraps, They eat, like, 3 times in their entire lifetime until they’re full grown, and then they don’t eat anymore. So Mushnik thinks, alright.

Craig: Well, if the plant has already eaten all it needs to, then maybe we can just kinda look the other way and not worry about it.

Todd: Yeah. He keeps pulling Seymour aside after some of these bigger events or after he can. He knows that the plant’s gotten bigger, so he must have gotten fed. Saying, like, so this is the last time. Right? So this is it. Right? And Seymour’s like, yeah. Yeah. I just don’t see how it can get any bigger.

Todd: Right. Right. The it it’s great because after that next morning, when, of course, after Mushnik has watched that happen, and, the plant shop is booming because they’re all looking at everybody’s in to see the plant. I guess mister Mushnik hasn’t come to work until much later. That’s what you can do when you’re the owner, I suppose. It’s funny how he walks in, and he’s so stunned. He’s, like, stunned at the people, and he’s stunned at the attention it’s getting. But then, of course, his conscience is nagging him, and so you get that great, A series of lies where the girls are talking with him.

Clip: Mister Mushnik, we talked to the committee, and they said we could use your power on the float. And guess what? I’m going to feature Audrey Junior right on

Clip: top. Boy.

Clip: Can’t you just picture it?

Clip: I can picture it.

Clip: Oh, won’t the people just eat it up?

Clip: Eat up the people.

Clip: And we’re gonna have the big part of it open so she can sit in it. Who? The queen with her crown and set her. She’ll be so You oh, you could just eat her up.

Clip: Eat up the girl.

Clip: Oh, they’re savor.

Clip: Stop. They’re hard.

Craig: It’s just just so funny. It’s such a funny image, and they’re so excited. It is just so stupid that they would be so excited about this big ugly plant, but, god. They are fun.

Todd: It is an ugly plant too. It’s hard to believe every anybody’s getting excited about this thing.

Craig: And and, you know, again, like, you forgive the the choppy writing because You’re just in it for the fun. You know? You’re not expecting a lot of continuity. You’re not expecting amazing storytelling. You know? The the day after he feeds the The railroad guy, to the plant. Seymour comes in and all of a sudden he has a toothache. So he has to go to the dentist. You know, it’s a total non sequitur like. Yeah.

Craig: Okay. I have a toothache now. I have to go to the dentist. And he goes and this is so funny. You know, in the movie, they write in a motive him to kind of have negative feelings towards the dentist anyway, that’s all absent here. He just goes because he has a toothache and, You know, there’s no explanation for why really this dentist is so sadistic. He just is. And, you know, his customers are screaming, and he’s just pulling out teeth for fun.

Craig: And, Seymour gets in there and, you know, the dentist pulls out one of his teeth and, then, you know, in such clunky storytelling, the dentist, like, picks up a a scalpel or something, and Seymour grabs the drill, which is, like, hanging on an arm, And he says, ah, a duel. And they start, like, sword fighting. Like, little kids would sword fight with, like, butter knives or something. And the dentist just, Like, stumbles backwards, I guess, hits his head on the wall and is dead. Like, it’s just it’s it’s so goofy. It it really goofy.

Todd: It It’s really dumb.

Craig: It’s almost so goofy. It and it’s so dumb, and that’s why it’s funny. Like, you’re just laughing at how ridiculous it is, and I thought it was cute.

Todd: Well, they’re really going out of their way to find people. Either the people who are going to be fed to the plant have to be people who deserve to die in some way, like the dentist’s, or it’s a total accident, that they were killed and that Seymour is not actually going out and killing them. You know, even in the even in the musical, they kinda do that. I mean, he goes to the dentist with the idea, that he’s going to feed him to the plant. So he’s going to kill him, but he can’t get up the strength to do it. And it turns out the dentist kind of kills himself with the laughing gas.

Craig: Right. So Right. Right.

Todd: Yeah. It it keeps you, sympathetic to the Seymour character instead of turning him into this tragic, well, it keeps him a tragic figure instead of turning him into this, this guy

Craig: A monster.

Todd: Yeah. Exactly. Right.

Craig: These the scenes, you know, some of them are completely they have no relevance to the rest of the movie, you know. This is when Jack Nicholson comes in, And Jack Nicholson, comes in and for no explained reason, he’s like a mortician or something And he gets off on pain. So he wants the dentist to, like, drill him and pull his teeth and whatnot. So because the dentist is dead, Seymour, takes his place, like, pretends to be the dentist and, he pulls out a bunch of Jack Nicholson’s teeth, and it all happens so like Jack Nicholson is in the movie for probably a total of 5 minutes if that. And he’s young. Like you said, this is one of his first movies. I think I looked it up. I think he was about 23.

Craig: I mean, it’s There’s no mistaking him, you know. He has such a unique look and voice. There’s no mistaking him, but, he just and he plays this goofy little role. I I guess, you know, when he had come in, Corman or whomever had told him that they were really going for, you know, slapstick farce, and and so he’s just playing it really, really silly. That that did kinda carry over to the film version, not not the, musical, but the film version of the musical. Bill Murray Plays, that character and hysterically so. Okay. But it was it was it was cool to see, it was cool to see Jack Nicholson in that little cameo.

Todd: Now I can’t remember how it is in the, eighties film version and the and the play, but I was watching this with Jack Nicholson. I I just couldn’t help but think, man, This would be a much more effective scene if he wasn’t playing it up so much at first, because part of the comedy in this is this tension. Okay. Seymour’s got a cover for the fact that the dentist is dead, so he’s playing the dentist. But here’s a patient coming in who’s expecting dental work, and so, You know, it would have been a a a little bit of a better scene if, if he didn’t if if we didn’t know the patient was weird until Seymour was sort of forced into this awkward moment of having to drill, and then we we find out, oh, it’s okay because this guy’s weird, and he gets off on pain anyway. Sure. Don’t know. Is that how it is in the movies or or not really?

Craig: No. In the movie, Bill Murray plays it just as weird, and, it’s it’s it’s funny. But like like you said, they were filming this so quickly. I read somewhere that I think in his biography, Jack Nicholson talked about this movie, And he talked about how they filmed it so quickly that they never even really finished that scene. They shot the the sections in the waiting room, And then they shot the sections in the, dentist office. And during the scene, I think that Seymour, like, kind of climbs up on him or I don’t know. But something happened where the actor who was playing Seymour, knocked over a piece of the equipment, the dental equipment, and it started to fall. And Roger Corman didn’t yell cut.

Craig: Nothing. He just stepped into the scene, grabs the equipment, kept it from falling, and said, cut. That’s it. We’re done. Like like, he He he wasn’t even willing to, like, stop and reshoot it. So they just kinda ended it where it ended. And so we we get very little of of anything in there, and then it cuts back out, and Jack Nicholson has his back to the camera. And when he turns around, a bunch of his teeth are blacked out, but He’s a happy customer.

Clip: Well, doctor Favre, it’s been quite an afternoon. I can truly say I’ve never enjoyed myself so much. I’ll recommend you to all my friends. Thank you. Bye. Bye now.

Craig: And that’s it. It it has no implication on the rest of the movie at Paul, it’s just a goofy little comedy bit.

Todd: That’s right. And I think it’s immediately after this then that, we get to the dragnet style cops. Right? Right. And they’re in there and and they are so dragnet. It’s obviously I I mean, it was still a popular, TV show at this time even, obviously, much more part of the pop culture than it is today. But even today, you recognize that, until Friday. Hey. You know? And they just go back and forth, and they talk very seriously in in these short clip sentences.

Todd: And This

Craig: was this was my favorite bit of dialogue in the whole Movie. It was so funny because they play it so dry.

Clip: How’s the wife, Frank? Not bad, Joe. Glad to hear it. The kids? Lost 1 yesterday. Lost 1, How’d that happen? Playing with matches. Well, those are bricks. Yeah. I guess so.

Craig: Oh my god. I just thought it was one of the funniest things I’d ever heard. They just play it so dry.

Todd: So they go and they visit the store. They visit Mushnik. And, again, this doesn’t make a lot of sense either because I believe what they’re investigating is the death of the bum. Isn’t that right?

Craig: And the dentist and the dentist, both. Yeah.

Todd: Oh, okay. Because Seymour, I thought, cleaned up pretty good after the death of the bum. He put all his body parts in a bag, so how they would have run across or known about the death of the bum when nobody else was around. And anybody who would have been around would have seen Seymour cleaning it up so they’d have a little more to go on, I think.

Craig: Well and well, in the way you know, Unless I missed something, there was nothing that would have led them to the flower shop.

Clip: You know?

Craig: Like Absolutely nothing. There was no connection. You know? Not that they had any kind of lead or whatever. It’s almost like they just stumbled in there because there were a lot of other people there. Walt was Yeah.

Todd: The dentist was in Skid Row too or whatever, so they’re going into all Skid Row shops something. You’re right. It it made no sense. I think it was just there to add another element to the film or to provide some kind of sense that Seymour, they’re closing in on him in some way. But, again, they’ve got nothing to go on.

Craig: After that, I mean, they they when, you know, Seymour they come in and the plant is really big the next morning, you know, this happens in a sequence of days or whatever. There’s a cute little exchange between Audrey and Seymour where Audrey kisses him, and he’s like, oh, you don’t have to kiss me. And she’s like, what do you mean? He’s like, well, I’m sure you don’t like it.

Clip: And No. I do like it.

Craig: And so they kiss again. Yeah. Just on a date. Is so creepy. I know. It’s just super clunky and silly. Then this lady, this fancy pants lady comes in, and she’s from the Society of Silent Flower Observers of Southern California. And and she tells, Seymour that, their society has taken notice of this plant, and they wanna give them a trophy.

Craig: So they’re gonna come back when the big blooms. There’s big blossoms on the plant. When those blossom, they’re gonna come back and they’re gonna give them this, trophy. Audrey and Seymour go on a date at Seymour’s house, which again is just more goofball stuff. Everything that the mom serves for dinner is just some sort of medicine disguised as food, and it all sounds disgusting. And meanwhile, while they’re there, Mushnik has said that he’s gonna stay and babysit the plant because he doesn’t want any more murders to happen. That’s right.

Clip: One

Craig: of the things that we haven’t mentioned yet that I was actually really surprised by, I did not expect in this movie for the plant to talk. I thought that surely that was something that they put in for the musical. I thought it was just way too goofball, but it does. The plant talks in this movie too. And, you know, it’s just it sounds like this disembodied voice, you know, and it’s just all it says is

Clip: feed me food, more food, hungry.

Craig: And Seymour hears it and is not confused or frightened. You know? It’s like, okay. It talks. Mushnik, it you know, it talks in front of Mushnik, and Mushnik, you know, oh, I guess we have a talking plant here. Like Yeah.

Clip: Like, oh, okay.

Todd: K. He just starts responding to it. I’m not gonna feed you’re not getting fed tonight. And this is

Craig: Right. I and And then so while Go ahead.

Todd: I was gonna say the voice of the plant, apparently, it’s uncredited, but it apparently is the voice of the writer. Yeah.

Craig: I I guess that the writer actually played several different roles, smaller roles. While Mushnik is babysitting the plant, a robber comes in because I guess he’s seen how successful the the business has been over the last few days. And Mushnik hides from him, but the robber sees him. And, apparently, that was the writer as well, the robber. And, Mushnik kinda tricks him into thinking that the money is in the plant, and he tells him just to knock on the plant, and the plant opens up, and then the robber gets eaten. That’s How Mushnik meets his demise, in the play is Seymour tells him that the money’s in the plant, and that’s how Mushnik gets it. But it’s a little different here.

Todd: Yeah. In this in this movie, Mushnik survives through the whole thing.

Craig: Yep. And does well, everybody well, no. That’s not fair. Not everybody but, yeah, the the the play actually ends, on a really dark note. Every pretty much everybody dies. Mushnik gets eaten. Audrey, gets killed by the plant and and Seymour ends up, you know, because she’s died. He he feeds her to the plant, and then Seymour gets eaten by the plant too.

Craig: That doesn’t happen. If you’re only familiar with the movie, that doesn’t happen because they filmed it that way And, test audiences hated it, so they went back and and refilmed, a happy ending where the plant was defeated. If you’re curious, if you like the movie and you didn’t know that, the the deleted, ending scenes are available on YouTube too. But I didn’t know that, you know, for the longest time until I was an adult. But, yeah, it it it ends on a pretty dark note.

Todd: Oh, and while we’re talking about it, If you are you gotta go and see the ending to the, to the 19 eighties version that’s up on YouTube that was deleted. It is a massive production That original

Craig: thing. It’s really cool.

Todd: It’s hard to believe that they just cut all of that out because there’s so many special effects, and it goes on for, like, 20 minutes. It’s crazy.

Craig: So much production. Yeah.

Todd: Yeah. Where the plant takes over the world. In this case Right. It’s cute because, seem so after the thief is dead, the plant burps up his gun. Right. Right. And then we’re back to Seymour and Audrey, and and I think they’re having another date, or they’re getting excited. Yeah.

Todd: They come back. And It’s interesting because Seymour says what I think is my one of my favorite lines in this thing when he’s talking about his future. Of course, this is something in the play that they build real up is that part of the whole thing is just to get out of Skid Row, get out of this terrible existence they have. And he says,

Clip: tomorrow, they’re gonna give me

Clip: a trophy, and I’ll be famous. I’ll be a

Clip: big botanist. And then we can go to the South Seas just like we planned and all.

Todd: Yeah. You know? Just like all those other notorious famous rich botanist out there. I love that line.

Craig: There is a sequence in this movie that’s neither in the play or in the remake, and I thought that it was really kind of strange and I understand why they left it out. But, Seymour Well, the plant talks in front of Audrey, but Seymour plays it off that he’s, like, doing ventriloquism or something stupid like that. And Audrey takes off and Seymour comes back in and says, I’m not feeding you anymore. And the plant says, close your eyes. And so Seymour closes his eyes, and the plant goes, you’re asleep. And then he goes, open your eyes. And all of a sudden, Seymour is hypnotized by the player, and and is is saying things like, Must get food for master, and he’s walking around like a zombie outside. And there’s this whole sequence where this hooker is trying to get his attention, And it’s just so funny.

Craig: Like, over like, he just keeps walking by her, and then he’ll be walking along, and she’ll appear somewhere else. And she keeps trying to get his attention. And eventually she does. And he thinks that she’s trying to volunteer herself as Food when really she’s trying to volunteer herself for something very different. But she says he says something like my place or yours. And, she says, I don’t care. And he says, well, we’ll flip for it, but he says, I don’t have a coin. She says, we’ll flip something else.

Craig: And so he picks up a rock off the ground and, like, Spits on one side of it.

Clip: Wet or dry? Wet.

Craig: I thought it was kind of I thought it was kind of a risque joke for the 19 sixties. And so he tosses the rock up in the air, and it comes down. Of course, it lands right on her head. And so then She’s dead, and he feeds her to the plant too. And that leads up to the scene. It’s it’s the morning where the people, the Society of the Silent Flower Observers have come, to give the trophy.

Todd: Yeah. And for some reason, they’ve decided that they’re it’s impossible for them to give him the trophy until until the plant blooms.

Craig: Right.

Todd: So they’ve all gotta be there to witness the plant bloom, which apparently happens on a very precise time scale because they’re all there, and the buds open, And you see the faces of the dead people on the plant, and the cops are there too for some reason. And so They, see this, and I guess sort of put 2 and 2 together. Hey. These are the victims. We at least need to, to catch the crowborn kid. And so Seymour takes off running, and there’s this extended excruciating dumb chase sequence through Skid Row, through all of the the weird parts of the city. Suddenly, it’s nighttime, I guess. Right.

Craig: I actually thought that part was really funny because I have no idea where they ran, and I have no idea where they shot it. But at one point, They’re running through this huge, like, tire yard, and it’s, like, all these enormous tires. And they’re, like, running over the top of them and through them and stuff. They don’t need to It made no sense. Yeah. I had no idea where it was, but it was kind of a cool visual. And then they ended up like, I guess maybe it was a yard or something. They ended up in this place where there were a bunch of toilets, and, it was like you said, it was kind of excruciatingly long.

Craig: I don’t know if they were stretching for time. It’s a short movie. It’s under an hour 20. But yeah. And it it’s it’s pointless because Seymour, you know, they chase him around, And then he just ends up coming back to the shop anyway.

Todd: Well, I remembered you know? And I don’t know if it’s just the thought everything mixing together in my head, But I distinctly remembered a different ending to this movie. I know it doesn’t have a different ending, but it’s just interesting how your mind, Remembers things as a kid. I remembered a better ending to this movie. I remember Yeah. That, Because after the big chase scene, Seymour’s back at the shop with the plant, and he basically says, I’m gonna take care of you once and for all. And he grabs a knife, and he climbs into the plant with the knife. Right? And so the idea is, I guess, he thinks he’s gonna kill the plant from the, you know, The inside. I mean, forget about hacking it away at it from the outside where it’s safer.

Craig: Right.

Todd: But anyway, my recollection of the ending was that the Society For the Flower Givers had not had not seen none of that budding had happened yet, But he had gone into the plant to kill it, and then the next morning, everybody had gathered to see the plant open up, and that’s when they saw the buds of the different people, who had been killed. And then the last bud that opened was Seymour had Seymour’s face on it, then saying, I’m really sorry, everybody, and then drooping down. Yeah. Oh, what? Yeah.

Craig: And arguably arguably, I think that would have been a better ending. It it’s almost like they needed a way to get that chase scene in there. Yeah. And so they had so they had to See it before. But, yeah, then, of course, Mushnik and Audrey and Seymour’s mom, and maybe if you maybe the cops, I don’t know who else are in there. And, Yeah. As the the butt opens and it’s Seymour’s face.

Clip: Casey’s, I didn’t mean it.

Craig: And the plant wilts. Now I I read after, after having watched the movie, I I just, you know, I looked up everything I could on Wikipedia and the plot synopsis. It says that, I guess, that the intention was supposed to be that the plant dies. Like, having eaten Seymour, it dies. I didn’t get that from it. But, but that’s that’s it. That’s where it ends. They all kinda stand there in shock, and then the end flashes up on screen, and that’s it.

Craig: Movie’s over.

Todd: Yeah. It’s, it’s kind of abrupt, but it’s also silly and very contrived how it gets there. So you’re kind of ready for the movie to be over at this point, I think. There’s not

Craig: Yeah. Yeah.

Todd: Much else there’s nowhere else it’s really going to go, but at least they, you know, kept it a little tragic. I guess it made sense that Seymour died. It it didn’t make a lot of sense in real life that Seymour wouldn’t have just No. Killed the plant, cut it from its stem, or you know? There are any number of ways besides climbing into it that could have killed the plant. But

Craig: Right. Now in the play, they kinda try to rectify that a little bit. You know? He he tries to shoot the plant, nothing happens. He tries to Poison it. Nothing happens. And so he says, you may be tough on the outside, but I’ll hack you apart from the inside. So they And I have to, you know, I I still love that movie, the musical movie, and I think that the writing there is really clever and they really cleaned up some of the sloppier things, from the original. But yeah.

Craig: I mean, it’s I I don’t hold it against this version because it is what it is. Yeah. And that’s the thing, you know, Going going into this movie, you have to be ready for goofball silliness. You know, it’s not taking itself seriously. It’s just for fun. If you’re looking for, you know, really well crafted storytelling, if you’re looking for, you know, something sophisticated, you are gonna be way disappointed. But if you just want something cheesy, you know, from this era of, you know, b monster movies, I think it’s cute. I thought it was a cute little movie.

Todd: Oh, I’m with you. And, you know, aside from the things that we have definitely outlined where it’s it’s it’s contrived, and it’s cornball, and it’s silly, I think it actually holds up pretty well In that Mhmm. Aside from some outdated references and some silliness, I mean, the jokes are good. They’re funny. Yeah. And, they they come at you rapid fast. The movie really moves quickly, and it again, it is a short film, so you’re not sitting through it for very long either. It it except for that chase scene, it really doesn’t seem to unnecessarily stretch things out too far.

Todd: Right. It’s just a tight, economical, funny little film, and I’m so glad that it’s gotten a life beyond this this older version of the 19 sixties because I think it kinda deserves it. A credit to the writer Yeah. I think, and the ensemble cast.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s the kind of thing would I watch it again for my own benefit? Probably not. But might I watch it again to introduce somebody else to it? Maybe. I think so. Especially if it was somebody who is a fan of the play or the, you know, the move the musical movie, and and they hadn’t, experienced it before, I would definitely sit down and watch it with them to kinda see what their reaction was because I I think it’s it’s fun.

Todd: Well, you know, and poor Roger Corman. I mean, it has gone into such a life of its own after this. Him letting it slip into the public domain, who would have thought? I hope that at least they’re giving him Some kind of royalties or something anyway. You know? Yeah.

Craig: I don’t know.

Todd: But, oh, the man’s got money. It’s not that big of a problem.

Clip: Sure. Sure.

Craig: I you know, you picked this kind of, you know, as a courtesy to me and I appreciated that. But I’m I’m glad we did it. It’s not I don’t watch these really old movies very often. And I think that I tell myself that I wouldn’t be interested, you know, that they wouldn’t hold my attention, that they’re too out of date. And so I’m glad that you suggested it and that we watched it because it really is kind of a a look back at a time that, is is long gone. Long gone. You just don’t see these kind of movies anymore, and it was it was a fun it was a fun way to spend an hour and 20 minutes my afternoon today.

Todd: Know, it’s so funny to hear you say that, Craig, knowing that you’re a teacher of literature. Like, you know how many people approach, like, Moby Dick and well, Mobodix is a bad example. But like a

Craig: lot of Yeah. I was gonna say, you know, I right. I don’t look at that stuff. However, However, the rest of my afternoon today was spent reading A Tale of Two Cities to prep for school coming up. So it’s not that I don’t appreciate, antiquity. It’s just, maybe this isn’t something I’ve given enough a chance.

Todd: Well, that’s what I’m saying. It’s like, you know, you come to these old classic books, and you think, oh, it’s gonna be boring. I’m not gonna like it. It’s so out of date and blah blah blah. And then you read them, and you realize there’s a reason they’re classics. Right?

Craig: That’s exactly right.

Todd: So maybe we’ll get to them right. That maybe you’re discovering that all over again with these movies.

Craig: Yeah. Well,

Todd: thank you so much for joining us for another episode of, 2 guys in a Chainsaw. If you liked what you heard today, please share this podcast with a friend. We’re on iTunes, we’re on Stitcher, and we also have a Facebook page

Clip: and a Google Plus account

Todd: that seems to be sometimes more active than our Facebook page. So if you’re if you’re active in any of those arenas, please, jump on there. Let us know what you thought of this article, and, let us know what you want to see coming up in the future. We’d love to hear your suggestions and watch those films. Until then, I’m Todd

Craig: And I’m Craig

Todd: with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.