2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

We were definitely split on this unique throwback to those old Italian giallo horrors of the 70’s. Shout out tho’ to Todd’s main man, Lucio Fulci!

We Are Still Here (2015)

Episode 40, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: I’m Craig.

Todd: And today’s film was We Are Still Here. Craig, you chose this film. What was what were you thinking?

Craig:  Well, I’ll be honest with you. It’s kinda been, a long week for me, busy week. And, I was looking through our list that, we’ve kinda put together. And, I’ve heard some stuff about this movie just a little bit, but really the selling point for me was that it was short. It was only about an hour and 25 minutes long, and so, I thought we’d we’d we’d give it a go.

Todd:  That’s great. What did you heard about it?

Craig:  Not a whole lot. You know, I remember seeing, some articles, I think, on Bloody Disgusting or something like that, around the time when it came out or when it was coming out. And the articles didn’t have a whole lot to say. And now having seen the movie, I’m kinda glad, because I feel like if they had talked about it too much or given too much away, that wouldn’t have been a good thing. But, I saw generally positive, reviews. And so I was intrigued, and intrigued by the fact that I really didn’t know much about it at all. So I figured we’d give it a go.

Todd:  You know, it’s nice every once in a while to just pop into a movie when you haven’t seen a preview, you haven’t really read about it, just the way we used to watch movies. Right. Right. With minimal information, and and in this case, not even any anticipation. I’d never heard of it before, but it did come out last year, and I guess it was a big hit at the 2015 South by Southwest Film Festival. Critically received well. Apparently, it’s commercially done well Todd, and writer director whose name I will probably mispronounce, but it’s, what is it, Ted Gyogegen? I guess he’s written a bunch of other stuff. Since 2001 he’s been writing almost a movie a year, but this is maybe one of his few, director credits.  I think he’s only done International Playboy’s first movie, Ghouls Gone Wild, back in 2004. But he’s working on a big movie now called Mohawk, that’s gonna be coming out in another year, based on, I guess, the the momentum, behind this film. You know, I, jumped into it, obviously not knowing anything about it. It is about, starts out with a couple, Annie and Paul. Right? Mhmm. Yeah. And they’re driving through the wintery day. They’re obviously kind of quiet and depressed.  They’re about middle aged. At least they seem to be about middle aged. Right. And, they’re not talking much, but you get the sense that they’re moving and there we find out later that they’ve moved from the big city, to this small house out in the middle of nowhere near this tiny town to get away from the tragedy of their son’s death.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  And I guess their son was probably in about in his twenties it looks like or maybe late teens, when he died and died in a car accident. And so, that’s where they’re going. And you know, at first, I got the impression that they were returning to, like, a previous home. I don’t know if you got that sense. At least, I found the movie a little hard to follow at times, and that was the first thing that, I couldn’t quite figure out until about, oh, about 20 minutes in when I realized, no, they’d never lived in this house before.

Craig:  Right. Yeah. I I was a little confused too and I think part of that comes from the some of the dialogue, is is pretty quiet and I had to pause and rewind to hear what people had said a couple of times. And there were a couple of times, when I did that, and I still was uncertain. In the beginning, like you said, it’s really it’s quiet. You know, there’s not a lot of talking going on between the 2. It’s more just kind of, atmospheric, and you get the sense that, there’s there’s sadness, you know, going on. And, I think, Paul, at some point says, he says something about having had somebody set up the house for them.  So everything’s gonna be ready for them when they get there. And and Annie asks you, well, how will they know where to put the pictures? And he says, well, I told them. And having read the one sentence blurb on IMDB, I knew that they were moving to this new house. So, I wasn’t quite yet lost there. But you mentioned, that they’re they’re moving after this tragedy of having lost their son. And you get that impression very early on, because as soon as they get there, they’re kinda setting up the house. You get a little brief montage of them. You know, it’s it’s mostly set up for them, but, Annie’s going around kind of, putting up some pictures and things, and she puts up a picture of a young man, who I presumed was their son.  And then, after that, she starts going through a box of what presumably are are his things. You know, it’s like old trophies and, baseball stuff. And, so, yeah, that was the sense I got. We really don’t find out until, I would say, at least halfway through the movie. Well, maybe not that far, but a good ways into the movie. It takes until we find out what actually happened to him. But it is established pretty early on that, he has died. And so, yeah.  So they so they get into the to the house.

Todd:  And, and there’s I would say one of the really good points of this movie is it did a really good job of setting up a feeling of dread and also a bit of tension. I think, you know you’re going to a horror film, and, the instant she puts the son’s picture up, kind of on a table, there’s this moment where they’re watching television and the camera slowly pans over and that that, picture falls forward on of its own accord.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  And so you immediately are set up for, okay, this is gonna be kind of a haunted house story or something about the dead the dead spirit of the sun. And right away, she feels like there’s a presence in the house and there are weird noises when she’s setting up a lot of times when she’s alone. And so she kind of goes exploring, she goes down into the basement, which for this house is the biggest basement with so many rooms. Right. But, yeah, and of course, that’s really creepy. And I have to say, I was on the edge of my seat for most of that, kind of wondering what was going to happen. But then, I guess, what set up my confusion and made me wonder if they hadn’t returned to this house is she’s poking around and you get the sense that she that maybe it’s the spirit of Bobby who is haunting them. When she goes in the basement and shines her flashlight around, maybe there’s an apparition, maybe there’s not, but there’s definitely movement down there, and she shines it down on the ground at some point and there is a baseball glove with the name Bobby written across it.  Right. Now, were we supposed to assume that was a coincidence? Were we supposed to assume that was something maybe she just thought she saw, Or that they had had some things unpacked and some people had tossed that in the basement?

Craig:  I think the way that I read it was that, you know, one of the things that I liked about the movie was that it jumped right in. You know, it really was kind of a slow burn for the first half, but, the creepy strange stuff starts happening right away. Like you said, the picture frame falls over right away. That’s probably in the first 5 minutes. And then when she’s unpacking that box, she hears something down in the basement, and that’s what leads her down there. And and like you said, you know, it’s it’s dark. It’s shadowy. You can’t really see what’s going on.  But she finds that, baseball glove. My the way that I read it was that whatever was going on in the house, whatever was tipping over pictures and and whatnot, somehow got that glove down there. Because what she was looking through was a you know, right when this happened, when she started hearing things in the basement, what she was doing was she was looking through that box of baseball

Todd:  stuff. Yeah.

Craig:  And then, when she’s down there, after she finds the glove, then the baseball, which she had just had in her hands in the box upstairs, comes rolling down, the stairs. So, obviously, something in the house is moving things around, and that’s the impression I got. And from that, the impression that she gets is that the spirit of their son is with them, has followed them to the house. And that’s that’s really the premise that she is working under for all of the movie really. She, you know, so believes Bobby’s there. So you think

Todd:  that kind of explains why she doesn’t get suitably freaked out at all this stuff? I think so.

Craig:  Yeah. And I think, you know, that’s I these actors, in the movie, Anne is paid by played by Barbara, Crampton, who I kind of recognized, but, you know it was just kind of a vague familiarity. And when I after the movie was over and I I kind of looked up some information about it, I saw that, you know, she was in Re Animator. She played the mom in You’re Next, and then the dad, Paul, I’ll probably mispronounce his name, but it’s, Andrew Sensenig. And he looked familiar. I couldn’t recognize him for anything. I I looked at his IMDB credits and he’s got 99 acting credits. So obviously this is a guy that’s been working a lot, but nothing jumped out to me, as being familiar as something that I’d seen him in.  No. But but they both, and and other actors that come in later, they’re very low key. It’s it’s very downplayed. I I don’t think that it’s poor acting at all. Quite the opposite, I think that it’s good acting, but it’s very subtle and it feels very real. So sometimes it’s difficult to read them, and then at other times I feel like you don’t wanna try to read too much into it. You just kinda wanna, you know, this is a woman who’s lost her son, and she’s having these strange occurrences that lead her to believe that her son’s spirit is there, and she’s embracing that. You know, she’s not scared.  She’s a little unsettled, but I think at the same time, she’s kind of hoping that it’s him. You know, she doesn’t wanna let go. And so less than being scared, it’s almost more like she’s excited or or finding comfort in the fact that he may still be with them in some way.

Todd:  Yeah, I think in retrospect, I can get behind that. It kind of confused me at the beginning because I felt like, and maybe this is just me, but I feel like about any supernatural circumstance is going to be something that’s gonna freak you out more than it’s gonna give you comfort. But I suppose if you think it’s your dead sun, then maybe you do feel pretty good about it, or at least it’s gonna help you while you’re in that grieving moment that they’re clearly in. And that is definitely, obvious. Yeah. She, worse than her husband. Now, I thought her acting oh, by the way, I don’t know if you recognized her from Chopping Mall either, but she was Susie in Chopping Mall.

Craig:  Oh, really? No. I didn’t. That’s funny.

Todd:  Chopping Mall keeps coming back to haunt us. I That’s alright. So it’s like the Kevin Bacon of, of movies. That’s hilarious. But, yeah, it’s I don’t know. You know, I have to say I thought her acting was the best. I felt like a lot of the other acting was pretty uneven. Maybe I blame the writing Todd.  I I know this film has been critically received, but I have to be honest. I felt like the it was like a a paint by numbers script. I just thought there were too many cliches, as it went through. I mean, you get the the haunted house set up and then you get them talking about their dead son, and then immediately, I think the next thing that happens is, they get a visit.

Clip:  Yeah. They

Todd:  get a visit from 2 people, Dave and Kat, an older man and his wife. And, of course, it’s, oh, we’re the neighbors, and, oh, you haven’t been over, you know, you’re the first neighbor people have been over to visit us in 2 weeks since we’ve come to the town. And he’s all like, oh, that’s kinda strange. You you know, you’d think the town would be hopping because you’re moving into this place. And then they come into the house and are very unsettled by it, and they immediately dive into the story of the house.

Clip:  So the the realtor told you all about the daggers.  Yes. That was the family. Thank you. Who first left here. Right?  Yes. Yes. That’s right. I mean, the town built this house for them back in 18/59. Wasn’t long after that that the the trouble began. Old Dagmar had been running the bar no more in a couple months when, for wouldn’t you know, word got out that, they were shun on the bodies and bury in empty coffins. People were saying he was selling the corpses to the university over in Essex County. Some even said he was selling the Orientals over in Boston, turning them into chop suey.

Todd:  And then he says, well, you know, I guess I I shouldn’t dive into devils right away. We’ll be seeing you. Right. And walks out

Craig:  saying, you know, there’s definitely some really super formulaic writing, you know, with the neighbors showing up. And, you know, the the husband is kind of seemingly normal, Dave, but then when juxtaposed against his wife, who there’s clearly something off with, Like, she seems really unsettled. She seems very nervous. Like, she doesn’t talk very much, and when she does talk, she kind of only talks her husband in kind of hushed tones, and it seems like he’s kinda trying to get her to shut up. You know something weird is going on. And, yeah, they tell that, oh, it’s the old Dagmar place. You know? It’s it’s it’s the creepy haunted house backstory that you’ve gotta get. And then he’s got lines like, well, I I’m glad you’re here because this house needs a family.  It’s been 30 years since we had fresh souls in the Dagmar house. Like, you know, it’s it’s I can see how that could come across as cliched. I think for me, it was more almost like a just a throwback to an old school haunted house kind of story, and I thought it was a little bit charming. You know, I don’t know anything about the production of this movie or or, you know, what kind of budget they had. It feels, like an independent film. You know, it’s a small cast. There’s not a lot of expensive special effects stuff going on. However, you know, there are some cool special effects things later in the movie, but, it just felt kind of low key.  It almost, you know, it it it could serve very well, I think, in some regards as a play because the the cast is so limited and, the locations are very limited. And, so, yeah, you know, I I’m kind of with you, but at the same time, I don’t know. Todd me, it kind of struck a balance between being a classic horror story, haunted house story, but also kind of fresh. Like, it went in some directions that were unexpected. You know, in hindsight, in looking back on it, having watched the whole thing, the twists and things aren’t really all that original, but I didn’t see them all coming. So, I’ll give it that anyway.

Todd:  Yeah, I know what you’re saying. In fact, it almost feels written like a play because the dialogue is almost too economical. You know, Again, the guys come over and he comes over and immediately launches into the haunted house story and then says, Well, we better go. They’re the dialogue between the husband and wife when he’s consoling her, you know, when Paul is consoling Annie feels like something I’ve seen before. You know, it’s it’s I could almost predict that the words that would come out of their mouths next and that kind of disappointed me. But you’re right. What does kind of happen is a little it does keep you wondering because, for example, they keep he keeps talking about how the basement is getting super, super hot, and he needs to call the electrician out to to check it out, which is a little weird why you’d call the electrician out. Maybe it was an electric furnace, except it seemed like it was a, a wood furnace or a gas furnace.  At the same time, they had a wood burning stove upstairs. These little things kind of distract me, but you know, whatever. They call the guy over and he of course has to go down into the basement, the electrician, to fix things. And as he’s poking and prodding around, the lights go out and they go back on and they go out and they go back on, and there’s that whole sequence where he gets attacked by this menacing spirit, which I thought was rather frightening.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. It’s like this smoldering figure, looks like it’s burned and and still just just kind of, you know, ashen and and smoldering. You know, it’s kind of a jump scare. It jumps out at him and and grabs his arm, I think. And, I think he kinda you know, he screams from downstairs, and and, the husband, Dave, runs down and and thinks that he’s been burned, like, in an electrical short or something. The the electrician doesn’t say anything, you know, doesn’t tell them that he’s seen a ghost down there or whatever. But now we know.  And that’s the thing, you know, that’s kind of the thing that that I one of the things that I liked about the movie was that it left me wondering, throughout. I didn’t know how far they were gonna go. I really expected it, you know, in the beginning to just be kind of a bump in the night thing, strange things happening. I didn’t know if we were actually gonna get some sort of, you know, monster or apparition or ghost or whatever. And then when it appeared, and it this first time, and it it was really pretty frightening, atmospherically and visually. Then I’m just wondering, okay, you know, how obviously, this is some sort of malevolent force who has the potential to cause harm. How much farther than that is it gonna go? And I I just kept kind of being surprised. You know, like you said, it’s a little clunky.  It’s set up from the beginning. You know, after when when Dave and Kat, as they’re leaving, Kat hands oh, excuse me. When yeah. Yeah. The neighbors. When Kat hands, Paul a note that says, the house needs, underlined, a family. Get out, exclamation point. So we know there’s something weird going on.  We know obviously that, at least these neighbors, if not the rest of the townspeople, know that there’s something weird going on. And then, with the electrician, we see the ghost or whatever it is,

Todd:  and then it just kind of picks up from there. It moves right into, and again I just felt like this was so cliche, but whatever, it moves right into a conversation between Annie and Powell, and Annie is basically and I thought actually this was some of the worst dialogue in the film, And I have to say, I thought the acting laid it bare.

Clip:  I still feel something here.  So what are we gonna do about it?  What if Jacob and May came up for the weekend? May has always been interested in this stuff. She told me once that people pay her to do seances.  People with too much money.  And you like Jacob. He’s always so  Stoned.  Earthy. And they wrote us that lovely note after the accident. They said they’d always be there for us. I just think they might be able to help.  You already invited them, didn’t you?  Yeah.

Craig:  Yeah. Maybe she can get Our friend May who does the seances. Let’s have her over.

Todd:  Who who, by the way, as I read it, happens to be the the parents of this their dead son’s roommate at college.

Craig:  Right. Right.

Todd:  Yeah. Oh, come on. Okay. Whatever. Right?

Craig:  And Well, and then as soon as, you know, as soon as they say that, basically I mean, they have that conversation, I believe, while the workman’s down in the basement. So then the thing happens with the workman. And then right away, we jump to Jacob and May in the car. And they are, you know, these stereotypical characters where she’s kind of, you know, your classic airy, you know, kind of spiritualist and, he’s the wild haired stoner and, yeah. Kinda cliche characters. I don’t know. I just feel like it bothered you for some reason more than it did me. I I I just I you know, when these things happened and these characters were introduced, yeah, they were exactly what I expected, but it it seemed in step with the tone of the movie.  Like, I it just it felt like, okay. Yep. Alright. Now they’re gonna have their friends over, and and we’re gonna pre keep pushing the plot along, maybe find out a little bit more about what’s going on in this house.

Todd:  Right. And their friends happen to be, able to contact spirits, or at least that’s a hobby of theirs. Right. So, yeah. So they end up coming over, and they say, oh, by the way, our son, Harry and his girlfriend are gonna be joining us here as well, but they came up separately. So they go to the burger joint in town and again, they walk into this burger joint which is more like a bar and all the town’s people are in there and they’re absolutely quiet,

Craig:  you know. Oh, it’s that classic thing. You know, I swear to God, if I’m ever anywhere and I walk into a restaurant or a bar and every single local stops talking and just stares at me silently, I’m gonna know it’s time to get out of there. You know, something something bad is going down. And they, you know, they even comment on it. You know, when they’re sitting there eating their dinner, they’re talking about, I guess these people don’t take very kindly to strangers. Nice place you picked here. I’m gonna finish my meal, watch my back.  You know, like, they obviously know something weird is going on. And, yeah, I mean, that is cliche. We’ve seen that in a dozen movies that we’ve talked about. So, I can see where you’re coming from.

Todd:  Well, and then they’re having their conversation in there, and they say something about the house, and suddenly a waitress breaks a glass. Right. And everybody falls silent for a moment. I mean, like,

Craig:  really? Really?

Todd:  I’m sorry. It it was very distracting for me. And and, I mean, it’s clearly an independent production, and although some of the upper level upper list actors were were good, when you look at some of the acting of the extras or the extras or the bit players in here, there’s a stark contrast, I think, in their ability to sort of pull it off convincingly. I didn’t really think that the bartender was very convincing. I don’t know.

Craig:  And See, I wonder I wonder if the problem that you have with it is that they were taking themselves so seriously. You know, when we’ve seen this, you know, like, this this walk into the local place and have the locals all look at you. We’ve seen that in Witching and Bitching. We’ve seen it in that goofball horror movie that you had us watch. What what was it? The one where they eventually end up singing in the

Todd:  bar? Yes. Yes. Bloodbath at the House of Death. Right.

Craig:  But so we’ve seen this over and over again and usually it’s kind of wink wink nudge nudge and here they’re playing it straight and so maybe that doesn’t read quite as well.

Todd:  Well, I think it’s wink wink nudge nudge for a reason, you know, because like nobody in their right mind would think of putting this kind of stuff into a movie nowadays because it’s so cliche unless they were making fun of it. And you’re right. They’re not making fun of it here. And maybe it’s stretching into homage territory. I think so. But but again, as we said last week, I feel like it begs the question, when is own an homage, a loving homage? And when does an homage release also in a way need to stand on its own and be original? You know, do we really wanna see a movie with all the cliches thrown into it? Call it homage and love it for that or is that kind of movie really not what we wanna see anyway? I mean, you know.

Craig:  Well, I Yeah. I do know what you mean, and and, you know, you had us watch, and I’m glad you did. I enjoyed it. Zombie 2. And that’s a Lucio Fulci, film.

Todd:  Correct? Yes. Mhmm.

Craig:  Yeah. And this, what I read is that this movie is, inspired by his films, specifically, The House by the Cemetery, which I haven’t seen. So I have no point of reference. But, you know, I I wonder if that’s what they were going for, was really, you know, kind of an homage to those types of films. And perhaps rather than poke fun at them, they really kind of wanted to give it a go and and, you know, make one of these types of films. You know, it’s it’s set in the late seventies, so it’s got already kind of an older school vibe to it. In that regard, it reminded me a little bit of, like, The House of the Devil. Yes.  Very much so. Other movies that seem to be kind of throwbacks to those late seventies, horror films. And I didn’t think it was entirely unsuccessful. I when all said and done, you know, I thought it was a a pretty decent movie, but I can see where your criticisms come from.

Todd:  You know, and I love those full you know I love those full sheet movies. But you know, they came at a particular time in a particular place, and they have a style about them. Whether you like the style or not, it you’re able to overlook a multitude of sins in the storyline and in a plot that usually makes no sense and in dialogue that’s silly because there’s a style there. And if this director was trying to copy that same style, I won’t say he was successful, but I would say that he got about halfway there. But there’s just something kind of missing about it that I can’t quite put my finger on, but I’m gonna try to by the end of this podcast. Fair enough. Fair enough. You know? Yeah.

Craig:  I mean from there, it’s not that the plot is thin. It’s just, you know, some big things just kinda start happening in sequence. Like, the the parents, you know, the group of 4 adults, they all as as soon as they get there, basically, they all leave and, like you say, go to that bar for dinner, and they leave a note on the door, for Harry, the son, and his girlfriend. And Harry and the girlfriend show up. And, they go inside, and they make themselves comfortable. And, they kinda start to act like they’re maybe gonna start to fool around or make out or something, but then they hear, something strange, some weird noise. So Harry goes off to investigate, and he thinks the noise came from the basement. So he walks down there, and he’s down at the bottom of the steps and, his girlfriend, who I don’t even know if she had a name, but, she’s standing at the top of the stairs and he’s at the bottom, and we’re just kind of switching back and forth between their perspectives.  So we’ll see his face in close-up and then we’ll see her face in close-up and he says something like, boy, it sure is hot down here. And she’s looking down and there’s kind of we see this look of fear come over her face and it cuts back to him and clearly he notices it Todd. And You okay?

Clip:  Oh, shoot.

Craig:  And I thought it was hilarious that the girlfriend’s response was just to hightail it out of there. She, you know, she she runs out the door, jumps in the car, and starts taking off. And I’m thinking, wow, you know, that there’s some loyalty for you. And I’m thinking, okay, so I guess she’s just gonna take off, so nobody’s gonna know what happens. But as she’s driving along, this burning hand bursts through the back of the seat, bursts all the way through her body, and she’s dead Todd. And the car just kind of careens off, into a feel. And that that really took me off guard. I didn’t expect there to be that kind of carnage in this movie.  I didn’t expect the threat to be that intense. I didn’t expect, you know, this character who is the son of the or excuse me, the roommate of the kid who had already died. I didn’t expect these deaths, to happen and and so, it it it kind of kept me guessing as to where it was gonna go and how far it was gonna go.

Todd:  No. I’m I’m totally with you. It was very Todd, you know, with these haunted house movies that sometimes it’s like like like again with the electrician. Oh, well, he could have just himself. Right. Oh, something fell off, you know, the balcony. It hit somebody on the head. Was it a ghost or was it an accident? But in these cases, there is the apparition, like, with his hands on the guy’s head almost looking like he’s splitting it open and of course Right.  Putting his hand through her chest. Todd does set the tone for a whole different kind of movie. And, and again, it is very in keeping with Fulci’s type of film. And I haven’t I saw the house by the cemetery a long time ago. I do remember that the ghost was in the, apparitions looked a lot like this, and that they were definitely in the basement. So I couldn’t tell you how closely it’s Right. Paralleling that, but in its boldness, it definitely parallels his whole oeuvre where it’s, you know, the threat is always very real, it’s very prescient, it’s very, it’s not a wistful little apparition that comes and goes necessarily. It’s a very real three-dimensional object that’s there and it’s gonna get you.

Craig:  Right. And it’s not like something like, was it the Woman in Black with Daniel Radcliffe that we watched? Mhmm. Where, you know, there’s a ghost and the ghost is scary, but you don’t really feel like there’s really all that much of a threat. You know?

Todd:  Like Yeah.

Craig:  Not really you know, it doesn’t really seem like anybody’s in real danger. You know? Here, it really felt like people, you know, are in in real danger. And, you know, and and it moves quickly. You know, when when, Harry gets killed, May, his mother, is at, the restaurant still, and she reacts like she has some kind of, you know, guttural reaction. Like, she doesn’t know what’s happened, but she has this bad feeling. And so I don’t think that that’s what necessarily sit leads them to go back. You know, I think they’re just done, but they go back. And then we get this scene with these 2 waitresses at Buffalo Bill’s, this bar slash burger joint.  And there’s a knock on the door and they’re like, We’re closed. But the knock is persistent, so the older one, Maddie, sends the younger one to the door and she goes to the door and then all we hear is a gunshot. And then Dave and Kat, the older couple, the neighbors from before walk in, and the older waitress was like, oh, if I had known it was you, I wouldn’t have sent the new girl. And again, this was just something that kind of threw me. Like, did Dave and Cat shoot that other waitress? And if so, why?

Todd:  Exactly. But still, even after seeing the movie, that still makes no sense.

Craig:  Yeah. I don’t get it at all.

Todd:  It makes no sense. And but you’re right. It does throw you off guard, and it’s jolting. But it’s just jolting to be jolting because there’s no rhyme or reason to it. Right. Except, you know, now we know that Dave is a dangerous character, and they’re dealing, he’s somehow he and, obviously, at least her and possibly more of the town people are involved and know exactly what’s going on at the house and are even perpetuating it in some way, shape, or form.

Craig:  Well, and and Dave is like the scary exposition giver. Like, here we get, you know, this backstory, you know, he’s talking to Matty and he’s saying,

Clip:  You do realize what will happen if they leave, don’t you? Yeah. Do you really, Mattie? Do you? The town didn’t realize it back in 49. And when that darkness didn’t get a new family, it spread like a plague until it found many.

Craig:  And when he says there’s a darkness in the house that wakes up every 30 years, and it’s hungry, and he says, you know, if the Dagmars haven’t killed them yet, we’ll have to do it ourselves. Or she says we’ll have to do it ourselves or something like that. So there’s obviously something going on. The townspeople obviously know about it. And, again, this was another twist that I didn’t really see coming. You know, I thought, okay. The townspeople know. Maybe the townspeople want them to stay there for some reason because they have to be some kind of sacrifice or something.  But when the house isn’t killing these people, these townspeople are just ready to take matters into their own hands and do it themselves if they have to. And I I Todd didn’t I I knew that there had to be more to the story and I didn’t know what it was. And it was confusing, but I was kind of happy when later on it’s sort of kind of explained,

Todd:  a little bit. It kind of is, but it still doesn’t make a lot of sense, does it? I I mean, well, there are just a lot of holes in that. And and, boy, he’s he’s he’s writing it real close to Fulci Right. Whose whose stories also never make any sense. And honestly, again, we’re talking cliches and this guy telling somebody what they already know just so he could be exposition man for us who are watching. I just would expect more than that, you know, something a little more subtle, something a little better, especially since we get it all again at the end when we finally do figure out what’s going on. Right. From the same man.  Right. You know? Right. It’s I don’t know. I I just think it was just really distracting for me. But, anyway, the the family goes back to the house, and they don’t know that the, son and his girlfriend are dead because they don’t go in the basement, and they obviously didn’t pass her car on the street. And the they never took that note off the door, so they figure, well, they they they left. So, they get there, and they sit around, and they chat some more. And are we gonna have a seance? And, the woman I think is kind of against it, because she says, no.  You don’t need a seance. I can feel a presence in this house already. It’s already here.

Craig:  And it’s bad. You know, she says, it’s it’s dark. You know, there’s darkness all around and and, again, the the main woman, Annie, you know, keeps saying, it’s Bobby. I know it’s Bobby. I I can feel him. I can hear him. You know, sometimes she, and and her husband kind of hear this really muted whispering in the background, and they think it’s him. They’re seeing more things like, Paul, in the night, you know, sees some of those apparitions, the burning apparitions, But he kinda wakes up and thinks maybe it was a dream.  But there’s all kinds of things going on. But in the morning oh, well, and, the the May, the one who, you know, has these spiritual tendencies or whatever, she says, it’s not Bobby. It’s something that wants you to think that it’s Bobby, but it’s not him. And so she doesn’t want to really get into it. So she and, Annie go into town for groceries just to kinda get away from the house. And while they’re gone, Jacob says, we’re gonna do a seance right now. And and Paul says, well, would Mae like that? And he says, no. She wouldn’t.  That’s why we’re gonna do it right now when they’re gone. And, so they start this seance. And I actually thought that this scene was really kind of spooky and, effectively creepy.

Todd:  The seance was fantastic. The leading up to it, I thought was a little clunky. My favorite line, maybe my favorite bad line in the whole movie was when Paul turns to Jacob and says,

Clip:  well, if you can disprove my skepticism, I will be very, very impressed.

Todd:  I thought, who talks like that? True. Very true. But yeah. No. You’re right. This scene was fantastic.

Craig:  Yeah. I mean, they start this seance and and, you know, the Jacob is is leading it or whatever. They’ve lit candles or whatever and, he starts talking. He’s reading out of a book. It’s all very standard stuff that you see in any kind of seance in a movie. But then he starts saying disturbing things.

Clip:  This house welcomes his spirit and asks him to join us. And with love and compassion, we will help him cross to the next realm and peel the skin off his bones.  What did you say?

Craig:  And he’s like, oh, no. It’s just standard seance stuff. And he he keeps on, talking. And again, it kinda goes back to standard stuff. But then he says something else like, I’m asking well, first, he says, I’m asking my son to join us. And Paul says, don’t you mean my son? He’s like, oh, yeah. Your son. I want him to come here so he can rot like wasted meat.  And it’s really it’s it’s subtle enough that you’re a little bit uncertain what’s going on, but at the same time, by the time you start saying the creepy stuff repeatedly, you realize that something is taking him over. That it’s not him. It’s somebody else speaking through him. And and the actor, I thought, did a good job of playing that subtlety so that it wasn’t an immediate shift. It had you guessing a little bit, but at the same time it was really unsettling. And then eventually, of course, whatever entity has taken him over takes over fully, and then he’s straight up possessed.

Todd:  Oh, it’s fantastic. And it’s really brilliant. I mean, one of the one of the brilliant moments in this film actually was exactly what you described and how he played it. You know, when you hear it that first time, you’re also doing kind of a double take. Like, did I just hear what I just heard? And then, of course, after that, it just forces you to listen intently to what I’m saying, like, every little word. It just really razor focuses your mind. It keeps you on the edge of your seat until he does burst out and it just makes it 10 times more freaky.

Craig:  Yeah. And then things from this point I feel like move really fast. Like up until this point, it had been a little bit of a slow burn. You know, things have been happening. I I was never bored, but it it was kind of building slowly. And then from this point on, it’s just boom boom boom boom boom. The the girls, women come back, and, Paul has Jacob tied to a chair and Jacob is, you know, clearly possessed, freaking out. Paul has gagged him with, it looks like, a sweat sock or something.  And Jacob just like ingests it and swallows it like you see it going down his throat. It’s super creepy. And then, he starts talking. His wife, May, asks him what happened, and he says, this town is what happened. This is my house. So we assume that this is Dagmar, the guy that we heard about before. And, at the same time, Kat, the old neighbor lady who was acting weird from the beginning, she calls and we see that she’s calling from a pool of what we assume is her own blood, and she says, I told you to leave. And and and Paul says something like, we know Dagmar is here.  And she says Dagmar is not what you need to be worried about. That, I’m sorry, that scene was so cornball. Oh, it was? It was so weird. Cornball. And totally unexplained, you know? Like, why is she dead now? Or, you know, I presume that her husband killed her for being traitorous or whatever, but, you know, it’s just it’s never explained. And and she obviously was weird and off put from the beginning, so why does he kill her now? I don’t know.

Todd:  Yeah. It Todd didn’t make a lot of sense and the way it’s staged Todd, it’s just like really? This is this is so goofy. She’s laying on the floor, but she managed to reach a phone and she’s kinda sprawled out. Well, it’s her last words to this guy. Thankfully, she was able to call him at just the right moment.

Craig:  Right. Exactly. You know, I don’t know. You know, things were happening so quickly, I almost just kind of appreciated the jarring imagery. Like, it came out of nowhere, you had no idea what was going on, but, you know, when she says it’s not Dagmar that you have to worry about, we already know that the townspeople have vowed to kill these people if the spirits in the house aren’t going to. But then Dagmar, through Jacob, continues talking and he says, we were good people. This town murdered my family. They sacrificed them to the gods or something.  Again, this is one of those places where I rewound it several times to try to hear exactly what he was saying and I never could get it fully. He says something like, they opened something awful and it needs a family or something like that.

Todd:  Well, there are allusions earlier about something about what’s under the house. Something’s under the house.

Craig:  Right. And, like, in the basement there’s a big hole in a wall and, you know, they wonder if there’s something behind there, but they can’t really see. It’s never really explained. So yeah. I mean, obviously, there’s something going on with the with the house and

Todd:  the location. It was built on an ancient Indian burial ground.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Well, we could we never This

Craig:  is easily have been. Yeah.

Todd:  Well, I feel like at this point, on, you know, it does get pretty real, and they’re running around inside the house, not really trying to go outside the house because the townspeople are closing in on them.

Craig:  Well, and it just happened so quickly. You know, Jacob, after he delivers the message that he’s got to deliver, I suppose, he just grabs a fireplace poker and stabs himself in the eye with it, and he’s dead. So then they go they do initially try to run outside, and and May is leading them. And I liked this shot. She opens the door and we’re just seeing her from behind, and we don’t see anything in front of her and her head just gets blown off. And and I didn’t see that coming, you know. I didn’t expect all of these characters to be, or I say all, I mean it’s only a couple, but, you know, for them not only to die, I didn’t necessarily expect them to die, but then in such rapid succession, it was it was jarring and for me it was kind of jarring in a Todd way because it was unexpected.

Todd:  Yeah, I agree with you. I think, they run upstairs, the couple. Mhmm. Paul and Annie. Paul and Annie run upstairs, and, they’re looking out trying to figure out what they’re going to do. At the meantime, it’s obvious that all the townspeople are kind of coming to the house. I Yeah.

Craig:  It’s like the whole mob of townspeople. Well, this was something that I thought was interesting because I I’ve seen there are 2 things going on at once and I’ve seen them both, but never really both at the same time. You’ve got the angry townspeople mob coming in and they’re obviously a major threat, but then you’ve also got the burned apparitions in the house. And and you kind of think that both of these groups are a danger to Paul and Annie, But as it plays out, you see that the burned apparitions in the house are really targeting the townspeople. Yeah. And and they they take out the townspeople, you know, 1 by 1 really pretty quickly. And there’s some you know, I think a lot of the effects were were relatively practical, but they I found them to be pretty pretty darn effective.

Todd:  They’re effective. I I just couldn’t quite figure out why the townspeople still felt like they needed to be there, why they needed to get upstairs in the midst of them getting picked off, you know? Right. I mean, it it was just it was just weird. Like, okay, you’re in this house. You think you’re you’re coming here to peace the ghosts, but you’re instead getting killed. Wouldn’t you figure out, okay, well apparently this isn’t what we’re supposed to be doing and turn and hightail and leave. But they were just like more resolved to get up those steps, you know, in the wake of 2 the 2 people before them who got, you know, either pulled down into the steps or melted into them or got attacked on them or whatever. Like, one woman finally makes it upstairs.  Wasn’t it the, the bartender, Maggie. The bartender. And this scene was so oddly staged.

Craig:  It was.

Todd:  You know, she kinda walks in and it’s supposed to be, I guess, quiet but

Craig:  I couldn’t even know what it’s supposed to be. Like it seemed to me like it was supposed to be a setup. Like Annie and Paul were setting her up, because Annie had like a fistful of kitchen knives, you know, just just steak knives.

Todd:  Right. And she’s facing the window away from the stairs, but then as as the bartender comes in, Paul all of a sudden yells out like, oh, she’s here. Look out. And that’s when Annie spins around. It was just so weird.

Craig:  Yeah. It was. That that part, cause it was unclear to me if they were, you know, just waiting for somebody and they were, you know, they had this plan. That’s what I thought. But then Paul acted like he was surprised and, you know, that he had to warn Annie and then she turned around. In the end, it doesn’t really matter. You know, she stabs the the lady in the neck with these knives and

Todd:  she dies. Who falls against this like white tarp that happens to be there so we can get the full effect of the blood spray? Right.

Craig:  The other thing that I thought was weird is that they they’ve said over and over and over again, you know, that the house requires a sacrifice. Well, how big of a sacrifice does the house need? You know, like a bunch of people have already died in here. You know, does it have to be this specific people that live there? All of that was very, you know, hazy. I I wasn’t really sure what was going on. But it ends up, in kind of a confrontation between Dave, the creepy neighbor guy. First of all, he’s downstairs and he just straight up confronts the ghosts, who we presume are the Dagmar family, and and, you know, one of them is clearly the dad. And Dave says, you know what you have to do. Now get it done.  He’s and he says something like, you loved this house so much that you were willing to die for it, and we have been willing to protect you and let you stay here, but you’ve gotta do your part of

Todd:  the deal, or whatever. Which is, like, totally flips it around.

Craig:  Right. And that’s again another thing that I liked and, I was talking about this last night, with my partner who didn’t watch the movie with me, by the way, but I was kind of explaining the twist, and he said, Oh, it sounds like Stir of Echoes. And I thought, Yeah, it is a lot like Stir of Echoes, where you think that the apparition is the bad guy, but it turns out, spoiler alert, if you haven’t seen Stir of Echoes, it turns out that it’s really not. You know, the apparition was a victim as well. At least, that’s the way that I read it. Almost like the Dagmar family had been the first sacrifice, and then their spirits had stayed around in the house. And then, I guess, they had helped to continue the sacrifices over the decades.

Todd:  Yeah, that’s the part that gets weird. Well, then why is the Dagmar family involved in continuing? I mean the house was built for them, they were the first people in there.

Craig:  Well that was the story that Dave Todd, but I don’t know that we can necessarily believe everything that he said. But Maybe the house was built and then they or maybe they built it for this family, but so that family could be the sacrifice or whatever.

Todd:  Maybe. I mean, but then there are, you know, during the ending credits, you know, jumping ahead, there are all these newspaper articles and if you kinda read through them, they seem to almost confirm Dave’s side of the story. I don’t know.

Craig:  Well, I guess, you know, things happen pretty quickly. You know, Dave is saying, he he he talks to the Dagmars and then the couple, Annie and Paul, come down and he talks to them, and he says something like, well, Paul says, what do you want? And he says, it’s not what I want. It’s what the house wants. You will stay here and satisfy the darkness. And he says, anyway, why would you want to leave and leave your little boy all alone? So I guess he is saying, you know, your son is here and and you should just go along with this so that you can be with him forever. But then the Dagmars kill Dave, and it kind of seems like that’s the end of it. And then, like I said before, Paul and Annie had kind of been hearing this whispering and they thought that it was Bobby. And there’s whispering again.  I rewound it. I cranked the TV up. The whispering says, Don’t be afraid, mom. And, so she goes walking towards the cellar and I think Paul, the dad says, we’re still here. You know, get the title in there. And he walks down to the cellar and we don’t see anything. We just see his face. He looks down the stairs and he says, hi, Bobby.  And that’s that’s it. You know, that’s that’s the end of the movie proper before we get to this interesting, Craig sequence. And I I still don’t know what to make of it. You know, the whole time the whole time I thought, you know, that the apparitions in the house were maybe just leading them to believe that Bobby was there so that, so that they would stay or they would be an easier target or whatever, but then it seems to indicate at the end that maybe he was there all along. Maybe he was, you know, helping them and and maybe even that the fact that he was there is maybe the reason that the Dagmars didn’t kill this family. I don’t know. Tons of questions, left. But the credits, like you said, it’s a bunch of newspaper articles, and it chronicles back, you know, all the way to the 18 articles and it chronicles back all the way to the 1800.  And what I took from it, it has the history, you know, every 30 years, something terrible happened in this town. You know, 1 year, all their crops died, 1 year all their livestock died, 1 year there was a fire or something like that. And tell me if if this is what you took from it too, was was that there was something bad happening in that town and the townspeople figured out that if they made a sacrifice every 30 years, they could prevent these bad things from happening. Is that kind of what you got from it?

Todd:  Yeah. I mean, it wasn’t clear on what the sacrifice was, but after having watched the movie, we assumed, oh, somebody moved into the house, or they pushed somebody into the house, or something like that, and then the house took care of these people, and then boom. Yeah. The the, the rivers ran clear again, and,

Craig:  you know,

Todd:  the crops were the the fields were fertile again. Yeah. That’s kinda what I took out of it. It it still leaves open that question of, well, you know, he said, it’s not what I want. It’s what the house wants. Well, if the house is perfectly capable of getting what it wants, aside from maybe ensuring that there’s somebody in the house every 30 years, why do the townspeople need to keep tabs on whether they’re dead or not, and whether they’re dead in 2 weeks or not? You know what I mean?

Craig:  Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. And again, you know, you’re the big Fulci fan. I’ve only seen the one movie that you showed me. But from that one movie, I remember that

Clip:  there just are unanswered questions. You know, like, that that’s

Craig:  you just have to kinda deal with it. You know, you know, I guess, okay.

Todd:  You know, it only gets frustrating when you feel like the filmmaker at some point feels like they’re explaining it to you. You know? Yeah. Like, because of exposition, man.

Craig:  Right. Right.

Todd:  You know, who comes along at all the right times to really just lay it out. And in a really clunky, unnatural way, I feel like you’re supposed to end this movie. And and if that’s not enough, you get these newspaper articles at the end. I feel like you’re supposed to end this movie with a fairly clear idea of what’s going on.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  But it’s So I don’t feel like it’s deliberately written to be obtuse, you know?

Clip:  Mhmm.

Todd:  But it is so obtuse.

Craig:  Yeah. You know, I having sat here and talked with you for almost an hour about it now, I get the strong feeling that you weren’t really a big fan of this movie and I I gotta say I’m a little bit surprised. I kind of thought you would have liked it more than you did, and I didn’t not like it. It I I I thought it was fine. You know, there were cliched things about it, but it kept me interested. It kept me questioning. Not all of the questions were answered, but I didn’t walk away from it feeling totally dissatisfied. I didn’t walk away from it, you know, with my hands in the air saying, what did I just watch? What just happened? Yeah.  There were lots of, maybe plot holes, some inconsistencies. But overall I found it to be a pretty entertaining film for, you know, an hour and 25 minutes. Don’t get me wrong. I mean, I felt

Todd:  it was entertaining. I didn’t hate the film. I didn’t think it was a piece of crap, and I wasted my time. But I guess if the movie’s not gonna make sense, I want it to make up for it in some way. You know what I mean? Yeah. And and that way, it’s gotta be it’s gotta have some serious style. You know? Yeah. Or it’s gotta have some great acting, or it has to have some characters that I really cared about.  And I can’t say that I found any of those three things in abundance in this movie.

Craig:  Fair enough.

Todd:  Yeah. I just felt that, like, it had its moments. Don’t get me wrong. It had its real moments. The seance scene was fantastic. Mhmm. The boldness of these apparitions meaning business and get even getting out of the house to murder somebody in their car and doing it full on, was was cool. But at the end of the day, I guess it it in a way, it kind of felt amateur hour compared to what I’m used to with the other movies that don’t make sense that at least have quite a bit of size style behind them, which, you know, again, like the full sheet films that we’re talking about and and maybe that just cut you know, this is just one man’s opinion, right? You may not be touched by those old Italian giallo flicks like I obviously am.  You’d think that because I’m so touched by them, this kind of homage would, I’d be falling all over myself for. But I’m really not for the same reason I wasn’t falling all over myself for Night of the Creeps, in that it’s just cut and pasted in a modern sort of updated setting or at least with modern cinematic techniques and a modern acting style and things like that Todd doesn’t always work for me.

Craig:  Yeah. And to me, I feel like it worked almost as well as some of the other movies that are going for the same type of thing. You know, I feel like, is it is it Ty West who did, House of

Todd:  the Devil? House of the Devil, which I also didn’t care for.

Craig:  Oh, well, C and I kinda did. So maybe it’s just a different sensibility, you know. And and he also did, The Innkeepers. Right? Which I love. And you liked that one. And see, now I think, you know, even this movie is in tone and style a little bit reminiscent of that. So I guess, you know, it’s just a matter of taste. You know, this one wasn’t your cup of tea.  I didn’t love it. It wasn’t one of my favorite movies ever, but, and I I’m not really sure I if I see and maybe I would need to read, you know, the reviews and the criticisms or whatever. Mhmm. You know, it’s got such positive response. Maybe they’re seeing something that I missed. I I don’t know if I understand why it’s gotten so much, Craig. But I I I liked it. I thought it was a solid effort.

Todd:  Yeah. Fair enough. Well, thank you so much for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed us, please share this episode with a friend. They could find us on iTunes. They could find us on Stitcher. If you enjoy this podcast, please check out our Facebook page. Like us on there.  Share that with a friend as well. And leave us some comments. Let us know what you enjoyed. Let’s start a conversation online. Continue that, with each other. And let us know a a film or 2 that you’d like us to review in the future. Until then, I’m Todd. I’m Craig with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

We have mixed feelings about Fred Dekker’s dated but charming send-up to classic sci-fi and horror films.

But it’s worth a watch if you love everything about those movies. And James Gunn (Slither, Guardians of the Galaxy) owes a LOT to this movie…

Night of the Creeps (1986)

Episode 39, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Podcast

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: And today, we’ve picked the movie. Well, I picked the movie. It’s a film that I saw a long time ago, but I just don’t remember much about it now that I’ve seen it again. It’s called Night of the Creeps made in 1986, and, it was really made as a send up to sci fi and horror b movies of the bygone era. And, that’s exactly what it is.  Wouldn’t you agree, Craig?

Craig:  Yeah. And that’s really more your expertise. I feel like you, are more a fan of those movies than I am, but, you definitely I or I at least definitely caught a lot of references to those old, movies and so, even I, who am not a big big huge fan of those films, caught some of those things.

Todd:  So whereas like a lot of horror comedy Todd, looks back on more recent horror and makes fun of it, this looks back on like the horror of the fifties and stuff. So I guess you felt a little out of your element watching

Craig:  this? A little bit. You know, I don’t know. The funny thing is I thought that I had seen this movie before, but, I was thinking of Night of the Comet, which is a totally different movie. And, yeah, I thought I had seen it and then I popped it in and started watching and realized that this was my first time having ever seen this movie. So, I I may not be as knowledgeable about this. Usually the movies that we’ve we’ve talked about, I’ve usually seen 2 or 3 times.

Todd:  Well, now the writer director of this movie,

Craig:  there were a couple lines and I won’t even be able to no. I know there was one specifically. It’s basically a zombie movie and there’s one point where the cop says

Todd:  Corpses that have been dead for 27 years do not get up and go for a walk by themselves.

Craig:  Which was almost identical to a line in the Monster Squad where the cop dad says the exact same thing about the mummy. And so I didn’t realize that, there was that connection, but it makes sense because there are some pretty striking similarities.

Todd:  Well, the movie was obviously written, and intentionally so by the director Todd just he he basically tried to compress every single horror or sci fi b movie cliche he could think of into this movie. So it starts out in the 19 fifties, and it’s even in black and white. In fact, he wanted to do the whole movie in black and white. I think it works better this way, where, like, the past is black and white, and then we come up to 1986. Right. A lot of things kind of happen at once. We see a sorority house and some girls in there who are talking about going out on their dates,

Craig:  and

Todd:  then a girl and a guy go out driving, basically parking on the point above the city like they’re gonna make out, when over the stereo of the car over the car radio, comes an announcement that there’s a kill an escaped maniac on the loose from a local mental asylum. Oh, and even before this, before we even get to Earth, we’re up in space.

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, man. That’s so funny. That opening, again, I had no idea what to expect and it opens up in like this spaceship, you know. It looks like a hallway straight off of the alien set or something. But then you’ve got these little naked aliens running around. Clearly, little people in like rubber suits, running around, and it’s like one of them is holding some kind of like canister or something, and and other ones are chasing him and, then the one with the canister like launches the canister off into space and and then that’s when we jump into the 19, 59, flashback or whatever. And, what’s funny is, you know, I the all I knew about the movie was the the very brief synopsis that I read on IMDB, which is like a college prank goes wrong and people turn into zombies or or something like that.  So I didn’t really have any idea what was going on, and when it jumped into that, 1959, flashback, I was thinking, oh, okay. This is probably, you know, a movie within a movie. We’re probably seeing, you know, something that our main character is gonna be watching at a drive in or something. And and then it went on for, like, 10 minutes or so. And I’m like, wait, maybe I should be paying closer attention. Maybe this is actually important. And as it turns out, it it was quasi important, I guess. I mean, it’s it’s connected to the main plot.  Yeah. It kinda sets up

Todd:  the whole deal. They go out parking, this thing comes across the radio, they’re driving back Oh, and and she says something about wishing on the brightest star, and pretty soon, this really bright, looks like a shooting star comes across the the, the sky, which of course is whatever was in this canister from the spaceship Right. And it shoots way across them as a giant fireball and hits the ground in the forest behind them, And so they decide to drive over and check it out. I think he says something like, well, that’s about as bright a star as I can find. Yeah. Meanwhile

Craig:  on the radio, it keeps busting in with, now another news update about the escaped maniac, and it gives an address and the girl, in the car, I think her name was Pam or something, looks up and they’re parked right underneath the street sign where it says the maniac is going to be, but the boyfriend has gone off to check out the comet. And so then we we see, you know, these feet, walking towards her. It’s apparently the escaped maniac. I mean it’s it’s so many things, you know? It’s in the first 10 minutes, you’ve got aliens, you’ve got an escaped maniac, you’ve got all I had no idea what was going on and I kind of felt that way through

Todd:  the whole thing. Throughout. A little bit of grease in there. It felt like the blob too when he’s going to the crater as it’s, and and there’s a canister there, and, something leaps up. We we’re not really clear what’s happening to him. But then, as it turns out, the girl is getting, there there’s this great long shot of the girl sitting in the car looking everywhere but where she should be looking, which is behind her, as this guy very easily and slowly walks up behind her, raises the ax, and swings it, and just as he’s about to connect with her neck, we jump right back into, present day 1986. The same university, So they were parked just in the area of a university called Corman University, which is, one of many references in this film, blatant references to horror movie or sci fi b movie directors. It it’s crazy.  Yeah.

Craig:  I I missed that. I I because I I kept, looking for, what Corman? Is that what you said? Corman Universe? Corman. Yeah. Yeah. I I kept looking for that because it’s it’s Roger Corman, right, who did all those old, b movies? I was looking for those references because I I caught a couple of them, but I missed that one. It makes perfect sense. And it’s funny, you know, the tone of the movie, I guess, I mean, you’d have to call it horror for what it is, but there’s there’s definitely comedy Todd. When, the the 2 guys the 2 kids, Pam and Johnny or whatever are are parking and then he goes off to find the comet, she’s calling calling to him like, please come back now.  Please come back now.

Todd:  And she says something like

Clip:  Johnny, can we go back to the point now? Stop. I’ll I’ll even let you fondle my breasts.

Craig:  Just Just goofball stuff and and not knowing what I was getting into. I mean, even there in the first 10 minutes, I’m like, okay. Alright. I I I feel like I know where this is going.

Todd:  Did you like you know, I’m thinking back to the spaceship, how the aliens were running around in the spaceship, and they were talking to each other in some alien language, and it was subtitled,

Craig:  but

Todd:  it was also subtitled in that alien language. You couldn’t read it anyway. Hilarious. Like, what was that all about?

Craig:  Yeah. I I I I loved it. And, you know, the aliens were so goofy looking. Like, they’re in these, I guess, just like rubber prosthetic suits. Like, their faces didn’t move or anything. Like, even when they’re talking, their mouths aren’t moving very much. It was it’s pretty funny stuff. And, yeah, it certainly calls back to those, b movies of the the fifties and beyond.  Well, there’s never

Todd:  a dull moment though. Right? I mean, it really kinda takes off and keeps moving. I I don’t think that we get a lot of deep conversation between any of the characters or any really strong, deep character development. No. It all it all moves along at a pretty steady clip like those b movies used to do. Right. Right. Where it’s pledge week, at Corbin University, and we’re back at the same sorority house, Lambda del Lambda Delta Iota, I think it was.

Craig:  I don’t know. But we’re we’re in 1986, which would have been present day for for them. And we

Todd:  have this moment where we have our 2 main characters, JC, who we later learned is James Carpenter Hooper.

Craig:  Oh, gosh. See, how man, I’ve only seen the movie once. I didn’t catch all these things. I’m glad you caught them.

Todd:  Well, the detective at one point actually sits him down and he goes, so JC Coop James Carpenter Cooper and Christopher Romero.

Craig:  That’s hilarious. Yeah. You’ve got these 2 guys. When it opens up, it’s pledge week and, these 2 kind of geekier guys, I guess, JC and Chris. Chris, I recognized right away and it took me forever, and I finally had to cheat and just get on my phone and look on IMDB. But, the actor who plays Chris is named, Jason Lively, who is the brother of Robin Lively, who was a really, you know, pretty hot actress of, the eighties. She was in Teen Witch, which I’m not ashamed to admit was one of our favorites, me and my sister, when I was a kid. And, Blake Lively is, also his half sister and she’s hot right now.  Isn’t she who is she she’s she’s the one that’s married to Ryan Reynolds. Is that right?

Todd:  Oh, you you might be right.

Craig:  Yeah. And I think she’s in the shallows, right now. Stars in the shallows. They come from this, I guess pretty famous, family. He was, Rusty from, European vacation, which is what I recognized him from. But, you you know, we we meet these 2 guys, these geeky guys, and they’re kind of, I guess, at Rush week or whatever and, right away Chris sees this girl, and I feel like there’s this, you know, cheesy music cue like here’s the hot angel girl and, her name is Cynthia, and when she gets fully introduced, her full name is Cynthia Cronenberg, which is another great reference there.

Todd:  Yeah. And and we were just talking last week in The Lost Boys of the cheesy eighties moment where the guy sees the girl through a crowd across, and, like, the whole world stops and the music cuts in. And this was, like, every single one of those, like, distilled. Yeah. It couldn’t have been more overdone and over the top Right. And and hilarious, I thought. And it at first, you watch the movie, and you wonder if this is unintentionally hilarious. You know? Mhmm.  But there’s just so much of it. Yeah. And again, admittedly, the director said, I wrote every cliche I could think of into here, so they were clearly playing it way up like that.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  And, and JC is in crutches. So he has, you know, he’s never really explained what, but obviously some something from childhood Right. Where he is not able to walk. So he knows he’s never gonna be the guy who could get the girl, at least that’s what he says.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  That might be a little un PC to say now. Sure. And not even really ever true, but anyway, that’s what he says and then, so he decides he’s gonna be the one to help Chris get the girl.

Craig:  Yeah. And so he, you know, Chris sees this girl, Cynthia, and she is beautiful. I I I don’t know this actress, you know, she she looks somewhat familiar. I didn’t really look her up, Jill Whitlow, but this beautiful, brunette girl, and JC kinda goes over to play wingman, with her and and gets her name and and kind of says, you know, look at that good looking guy over there. And, things don’t really amp up any more than that at that point, but you know, there’s a connection established at least. And of course, then later on, they all come back together.

Todd:  Yeah. They follow her into what’s, now we’re like at a fraternity house, I guess. Right. And, he meets up with her, thanks to the prodding, basically, of JC who kind of he JC is this guy, you know, he’s the same guy that’s in all these movies where he’s, like, the sidekick to the main character who has all these, like, witty sayings and who’s the one who goats and prods the who kinda has the balls. Right. You know? Whereas the main character doesn’t. And all of his dialogue is really, really pretty witty and cool and fresh, even though he’s kind of a dork. And it’s a shame because I feel like the acting is so bad.  I mean, did you feel that way?

Craig:  Yeah. I’m I did, but Or

Todd:  was it the writing? No.

Craig:  I I have to say, you know, I I was wondering when I would have the opportunity to say this. I enjoyed this movie. It was a fun ride to watch, but and now that you say that the writer wanted to throw in absolutely every cliche that he could, that kind of makes more sense. But I just kind of felt like the writing was just kind of all over the place. I I you know, I was like, there are several times when I thought, wait a minute. What? What is happening? I don’t even understand what is happening. I even had to, rewind, on a couple occasions to make sure I didn’t miss anything, and I I didn’t miss much. It’s just, they were kind of he, I guess.  Decker was kind of playing it fast and loose, with the scripting, but, I mean, it was it was still a fun ride.

Todd:  I I mean, it does go all over the place because it becomes it it becomes this, again, this this cheesy which is maybe a little more in place in, like, the eighties, like, Revenge of the Nerds, where this guy realizes that to get the girl, he’s probably gonna have to join a fraternity Right. Because she’s hanging out with frat guys and seems to be involved with one of them, and his name was Brad. Brad. Yeah.

Craig:  And I always be nice to that guy too. I don’t I don’t have his name written down, but, he was from mama’s family. He was the young the young kinda stud from mama’s family, which I thought was pretty funny.

Todd:  You’re right. Alan Kaeser. Nice. Alan Kaeser.

Craig:  Yeah. Brad. Brad is the head of the betas. I guess they’re the, you know, the hot fraternity on campus and, that’s who Cynthia they call her Cindy sometimes, Cynthia or Cindy. That’s that’s her boyfriend, but he’s your typical stereotypical kinda jerky, frat guy. And what happens, I guess, is when JC and Chris decide that they need to join the fraternity so that Chris can impress Cynthia, They get up, they they meet with the fraternity brothers and, the frat guys tell them, well, oh yeah, you know, we’d we’d be happy to let you pledge, but you just have to do something to prove yourselves first. And and Chris says, we don’t have to have sex with a farm animal, do we? And Brad’s like, oh no, Here’s what you gotta do. And and I if I remember correctly, we don’t really hear what they’re challenged to do, but what it turns out to be is they have told, Chris and JC they need to go steal a corpse, from the on campus morgue, I guess, and, dump it on the lawn of the rival fraternity.  Of course, you know, once JC and Chris leave to go set out on their mission, the frac guys, you know, elbow each other, hardy, we’re never gonna really let these guys in, but that’s kind of what kicks everything into motion is this challenge.

Todd:  That’s right. And so they go and, and we get this this little bit, which is also totally corny, of the the lab worker, I guess, in this specific locked security locked room area of the morgue who’s forgotten the last digit of his passcode. So I guess he sticks his his card and then he starts punching in a code, but doesn’t get all the way through it. And then goes to the pay phone around the corner to call somebody and is like, yeah. It’s like in my notebook. No. Not the red one. The blue one.  Just like just on the phone forever trying to get this last number while these guys walk down. And then JC just, like, sees this this door in on the hallway and just absentmindedly just punches one of the buttons for fun, and it happens apparently to be the last dude.

Craig:  That’s good.

Todd:  The door opens like, woah. Check it out. Let’s go inside.

Craig:  Yeah. And they go in and it’s totally, you know, like I don’t even know what you would call it. Like, the scientist’s room from one of those old b movies. Just lots of flashing lights and, and then there’s this big, like, Craig chamber with a guy standing in there. We, the viewers, I think can figure out pretty quickly that the guy that’s there in the cryo chamber is Johnny, the guy from the flashback from from the 1950s, and he’s frozen in there. And all that we really saw that happened to him was, you know, he found that canister and then some kind of, like, slug like creature jumped into his mouth. And that’s all we saw. But, you know, they kind of, JC and and Chris kind of debate, you know, what should we do? What should we do? But they eventually, I think JC just, you know, pushes a dis a big a great big button, a great big red button that says disengage or something like that.  And he pushes it, and the cryo chamber opens up and, they they grab the body and they start pulling it out and, like, I know what they were thinking, how they were gonna get this body out of there without anybody noticing. But as it turns out, it doesn’t really matter because, the body twitches, it moves, and it freaks them out and and they run away. They then, of course, have no idea what happens

Todd:  he’s somebody you probably don’t know his name, but you’ve seen him in, like, every other movie. Right. Right. Yep. He’s on TV a ton. He’s in a lot of big movies. He’s an Amistad and quiz show and Payback and Drag Me Todd Hell and and guested on Law and Order. And, I mean, almost every TV series he’s he’s had a part in somewhere.

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Lots of lots of good cameos,

Todd:  in the movie. Then, of course, the slug thing pops out of this corpse, this somewhat animated corpse and jumps into his mouth. And that’s how this, entity, which is a bunch of slugs, but it’s like alien slugs that are reanimating basically killing their hosts or getting into the brain of their hosts and then, killing them, but then keeping them alive enough that they can be zombies and and controlled by the slug.

Craig:  Yeah. And that was one of the funny things that I just I I really couldn’t figure out, like, you never really and I never really understood what the purpose of these things were. I mean, like, there’s the there are these slugs, that I guess, you know, go into the host, the human being, and, like, intubate in their Craig, and then after a while they they bust out, and and it’s more slugs, and they scurry off all over whatever. But I could I I I never really understood what the end game was like That’s true. Like I I guess they just wanted to make more slugs. And it’s like the, and when the people are are zombies, controlled by these slugs or whatever, just the host for these slugs, like, they didn’t even seem particularly malicious or anything. Like, they just kind of walked around. Like, their only purpose was to kind of walk around and maybe shoot another slug out of their mouth into somebody else’s mouth or, eventually what happens to them is is their head, like, busts open and a bunch of slugs come out.  But Yeah, it’s I mean it just kind of seemed like a coincidence that people happened Todd turn into zombies for a while, and while the slugs were in there, and then the slugs burst out and then they weren’t anymore. Like, I don’t know. It was weird. It’s hard it’s hard

Todd:  to imagine how precious these creatures are to these alien beings that they had to save them and and jettison them out of their ship. Like Yeah.

Craig:  I have no idea.

Todd:  And so then what happens is this reanimated corpse, goes no. The cops called at that point. Right?

Craig:  Yeah. It’s the the cops and and his name, is, detective, Cameron, I think, maybe. Something like that.

Todd:  Yes.

Craig:  Or Craig. His first name’s Ray. And again, being the first time I’d seen the movie, it took me a while to put 22 together because he’s, he gets involved in this investigation with the missing body and stuff, but then he’s also having, like, weird flashbacks to that night in the fifties and it took me a second to put together when the 2 when the couple in the 50s had gone parking, a cop had come over to the car to break them up, but when the cop recognized the girl, he was like, oh, Pam, it’s you. And she was like, oh, hi, Ray. What’s up? And as it turns out, this cop, and I again, another the actor’s name is Tom Atkins, a a guy that I immediately recognized, but I couldn’t even really tell you what from. It’s like he always plays this hard nosed cop character. It turns out that he was the cop in the flashback and that he had been, the one who had, you know, found the axe murderer who had killed Pam. He had been in love with her.  Like, it’s it’s just such a a it’s so convoluted that it’s it’s really difficult to follow. I feel like if I had if if I went back and watched it again, I would catch a lot more. But anyway, so now he is on this case and it’s for whatever reason reminding him of, what had happened to him back in the fifties.

Todd:  Yeah. He’s your stereotypical, I’m haunted haunted by this one thing that happened to me, and he drinks, and he smokes. Right. He there’s one point where he’s pouring over old photos of the crime scene from the fifties and stuff like I mean, again, every cliche you can imagine.

Craig:  Well, and the first time that we’re introduced to him is, I guess, in a dream sequence. Like, I had no idea what was going on. Like, the first time you see him, he’s sitting on a beach in a white suit, and all these gorgeous, you know, bikini clad girls are, like, bringing him drinks and stuff and then this blonde comes up out of the water. It took me several minutes to realize that that blonde that comes up out of the water, was Pam, the girl that had gotten killed and, in the fifties. And as it turns out, you know, that had been his first true love, and he had witnessed her demise. And so, he’s being haunted by those past events, and now he’s thrown into this new crisis.

Todd:  Well, it’s impossible to recognize her too because, that is the eighties, teased up hair, Pam, not 19 fifties, like, total, you know, short cropped. Like like, she didn’t even look like the same girl because her makeup and everything was totally modern. But yeah, oh, he’s called out because, there of course, there’s a report of a body at the lab, and it’s the body of the lab guy who had stumbled across this this happening. And, of course, they know that there’s another body that’s supposed to be there that’s not. Right. That’s this corpse of what was the guy’s name again from the 50 John? Johnny. Johnny. Johnny.

Craig:  Yeah. And that’s where the line comes, you know, that that, the body is missing, and he says, guys who’ve been dead for 27 years don’t just get up and walk away on their own. And immediately, and I saw it coming a mile away, immediately then we cut to these, you know, corpse feet, you know, kind of shuffling along the grass outside. And so Johnny’s corpse is now on the loose. And Cindy, go we we jump to Cindy and she’s back at her sorority where apparently she’s the president of her sorority or whatever. And and seemingly, super randomly, as soon as she walks in the door, one of the sorority sisters says, oh, by the way, I was wondering if I could store all these human brains in the basement. We we have to dissect them later. And she’s like, okay.  I guess. I just don’t want them up here. And I’m like, that is so random. Of course, I come back, towards the end of the movie. But she goes she goes up to her room and she takes off her Todd, of course. So we get to get a flash of her boobs and, and people keep, like, the girls. Of course, it’s all, you know, very cheesy horror. They keep hearing things outside or whatever.  And one girl hears something, and it’s just the cat.

Todd:  Oh, it’s like a total cat scare. Correct. This actually has a cat scare where the cat is, like, at the door. It’s not, like, behind a bush, it’s not, like, in a closet. It’s like the door rattles, and she goes to open it, and the cat leaps up about 6 feet at it. It’s so hilarious. Right. Right.

Craig:  Sorry there. And then, and then Cynthia is up in her bedroom and she hears the same kind of tapping at her window and she goes and she opens one window, nothing there. She opens another window, nothing there, but then all of a sudden, popping up from the bottom of the window from the bottom of our screen is this corpse and it just kind of looks at her eerily through the window and this was the part that I had to rewind because I couldn’t it happened so fast that I couldn’t tell what happened the first time. The second time when I rewound it, you see just just I I swear, it’s like a split second. You see the guy’s head start to split open and then you see these slugs, you know, splatter down on the ground, all around him. And then it cuts immediately to the cop getting called, and every time the cop gets called, he, like, picks up the phone and says, thrill me. Like, that’s his catchphrase. That is

Todd:  his catchphrase

Craig:  throughout the whole movie, and and he’s called over to the sorority house where now there’s a body on the ground, like, right in front of the front door and, when they pull the sheet back it looks like the head is split straight down the middle, almost like with an axe. But then what confused me was they kept saying that there was a headless corpse out there.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And and like they even show a headline, like, on a newspaper, like, headless corpse found in front of sorority house or whatever. And it wasn’t headless. Like, I No. It took me for I was like, what is going on? I felt certain that I had missed something, but I didn’t. I don’t know if that was intentional. I don’t know if it was just weird editing. I don’t know if something got changed and they had to go back and do reshoots, but I’m like, this is confusing to me because this corpse is not headless. It clearly has

Todd:  a head. No. You’re absolutely right. It is confusing, and I think everything happens so quickly, and there’s so many corpses to keep track of. Yeah. And then, of course, you have these crossing story lines where the past you know, you’re trying your brain’s trying to make these connections to why is this happening and and who is who that, and then the dream sequence, and of course, you figure that the cop is haunted by something. And, yeah, it all it all it just comes at you too quickly, really, for you to be able to follow it as easily as you want to.

Craig:  Well, right. And like the when the cop gets there and is doing the investigating or whatever, Cynthia is there and, like, acting like she’s all upset, like Brad’s consoling her or whatever, but she doesn’t say anything. Like Yeah. One would think that had some zombie guy come to your window and then their head had exploded, you might mention that when the cops came to investigate, but I guess apparently she was too distraught. I was totally confused, at that point as to what was going on.

Todd:  Well, and to pile on top of it then, detective Cameron, like, saunters through the house and out the back door, and he looks and he stops and he just stares at the back, which you don’t even see what it is. No. That’s that’s the other messed up thing. You don’t even see what it is that he’s looking at, and somebody comes up from behind him. Just some kid walks by, and he says, what’s that? And or the cops says something like, what’s that doing there? Or whatever. What’s that

Craig:  supposed to be? Yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. That’s the house mother’s cottage. And he says, oh, like it has some significance. Right. And you’re like, what? What is this? Show me the cottage at least.

Craig:  Yeah. And then it’s it’s really thick, you know, the again, I don’t wanna be too critical because I don’t think that this movie was by any stretch the imagination going for high art, but the the the plot, the writing is so thin, it does make it kinda hard to follow. I guess, you know, after that, the the Brad confronts, Chris and JC on campus the next day and says, that wasn’t cool, guys. You know, I know we put you up to that prank or whatever, but you were supposed to drop it on, the rival frats lawn, not on not on that sorority or whatever. And, JC kinda, you know, smart mouthed him a little bit and says, we didn’t do it. You know, we we started to, but we chickened out. We didn’t do it. But, at

Todd:  at that point, Brad delivers my absolute favorite line in the whole movie which is, a lot of girls were seriously freaked out last night because of you.

Craig:  Yeah. Great stuff.

Todd:  A lot

Craig:  of girls were

Todd:  seriously freaked out last night because you guys.

Craig:  Oh, okay, Brad. Oh, gosh. Yeah. And, so then Brad, I guess, like, trips JC, like, kicks his crutch out from underneath him, which, Cynthia witnesses. And, like, that’s not cool. Like, you know, you don’t push down the kid on crutches. And so, she’s mad at him and she kinda starts, not flirting necessarily, but kind of buddying up with, JC and Chris like, like they’re gonna be buds now and, it’s it’s it’s just wild. You know, and then I don’t even things happen, you know, it’s jumpy.  Like, it jumps from scene to scene. I I don’t even remember exactly, what happens, but I feel like, when the cop is, investigating the dead bodies, the first ones, the ones in the lab, and and one of them is missing or or something. He he says something like, what is this? A homicide or a bad b movie? And, you know, with lines like that, you have to, you know, kind of give it some leeway into, alright, you know, they’re they’re going for the humor here. They’re not going for serious storytelling, so just kind of roll

Todd:  with it. Oh, yeah. And then the cop, through his investigations, gets to these 2 guys for reasons that are a little hard to understand, except that, I guess they were seen by The janitor. A janitor. And that that was almost embarrassing, scene there where he’s interviewing them, and, he tells them, oh, well, you were like, this some pledge of frat prank gone awry, and he delivers another one of those great lines which is, JC says.

Craig:  Detective, I mean, we’re not your fraternity types. I personally would rather have my brains invaded by creatures from space than pledge a fraternity. Right. Hilarious. But and and

Todd:  What’s it? Go ahead. No. I was just gonna say what’s so embarrassing about it is he use he says another line about how you guys ran screaming like a banshee. And this, janitor who is obviously Asian, is is playing the stereotypical goofy Asian guy with the broken English, and he goes, screaming like Banshee.

Craig:  And he keeps repeating it. Like, it’s the funniest thing he’s ever heard. It’s funny. Oh my gosh.

Todd:  And then he keeps repeating it. The next night, while he’s out there, I guess sweeping the halls again, going screaming like banshee, and encounters and this is the part I didn’t understand because, oh, it’s it’s the same morgue, I guess.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah.

Todd:  Right? Mhmm. They take them to the university morgue. I guess the university morgue and the police use the same they’re the same place? It’s the same morgue? I don’t know. I don’t know. It Todd doesn’t make sense when you really think about it, but anyway, the body of the lab guy sits up and, goes out and then infects the, the janitor as well. Right.

Craig:  And that was a really funny scene too because there are people in like, there’s another scientist in the morgue and then there’s, like, a security guard and this naked bloody corpse just gets up and walks by everybody and just nobody even notices. Like, they’re just not painting the hostage. They’re like, we’ll

Todd:  get down

Craig:  to you tomorrow.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  It’s fantastic. Right. And and so, yeah, it then infects the janitor, which again, none of this is really consequential at all. Like, it doesn’t really because all that happens once a person is infected is that they walk around like a zombie for a while until their head explodes and more slugs come out, I guess. Yes. And so then, Cynthia comes Todd, the guy’s dorm, JC and Chris’s dorm, and, it’s kind of cute. You know, Chris is like stammering when he answers the door or whatever, but she asks if they can go for a walk. JC realizes that he’s kind of the 3rd wheel, so he says I gotta go to the bathroom, and he goes off to go to the bathroom, and then Cynthia, tells Chris, you know, all this stuff that has happened.  You know, I I saw the well, first of all, the cat comes back again, but it’s a zombie cat. And and and again, just out of nowhere, like, we’re supposed to just think, oh, okay. Zombie cat. And so she tells Chris that and she says Chris,

Clip:  if I tell you something, you promise to believe me.

Craig:  Of course.

Clip:  I think it was a zombie, and its head exploded. And things like slugs or something spilled out. Okay.

Craig:  Maybe I should walk you home. And he does. He he walks her home and at the door, they just have kind of like this sweet romantic mood moment and, she’s like, I also wanted to see if you wanted to go to the formal with me tomorrow night. And he’s like, okay. She’s like, I promise no more weird stuff. Like,

Todd:  just Like she’s willing she’s willing to put it all behind her now.

Craig:  Right. So goofy, but funny.

Todd:  Yeah. In the meantime, JC is getting, infected by slugs. Again, I thought this scene was super convoluted too. He’s on the toilet, and he’s writing. He’s actually scrolling. He’s one of those guys apparently who scrolls on the wall of the toilet stall.

Craig:  With a pencil.

Todd:  And,

Craig:  because because if you’re gonna if you’re gonna, you know, do graffiti on a bathroom stall wall, you should definitely do it in pencil.

Todd:  So it’s easy so it’s easy, I guess, for

Craig:  the janitorial staff to clean off. I don’t know.

Todd:  Hey. He’s he’s he’s not a monster. No. So while he’s sitting there, the janitor wanders in and he falls down and his head explodes and all these slugs are going around. And JC, I mean I mean, keep in mind, nobody knows about these slugs. Right. Like, nobody. So he’s getting kind of freaked out, and to my mind, it’s, like, a little overly freaked out.  He hears a noise, there’s no response, and then he hears, like, some movement. Like, squishing Yeah. Mhmm. There’s no reason to believe he’s in mortal danger of anything, but that’s kind of how he acts. Right. And there’s a matchbook just sort of sitting on the floor. I don’t did it fall

Craig:  from the I have no idea. Janitor? Well, he he he, like, he cracks the door of his stall and he sees, the janitor’s head explode and he sees these slugs, squirming around or whatever. So then he’s kind of freaked out, but you’re right. Then, like, right underneath his stall door is this matchbook. I never saw him drop it. I I have no idea why it was there, and I had no idea why he wanted it. I’m, like, he’s reaching for it. The slugs are racing around scaring him, and I’m like,

Todd:  what what is he gonna do with these impasses?

Craig:  I I I’m thinking is he gonna like light the toilet paper on fire? Is he gonna light up the fire alarm?

Todd:  I thought he was trying to start the fire alarm. That’s what I thought. And it turns out he lights it, and then he just, like, burns the whole book up and holds it down on the floor, like, I guess in hopes that a slug would run into it, which it does. Which it does. Right?

Craig:  And, like, erupts in flames.

Todd:  Yes. And sort of dissolves.

Craig:  So now, obviously, we know that fire kills these things.

Todd:  Which is so funny because fire kills pretty much everything. Yeah. It’s not like a a big special weakness, you know. Right.

Craig:  And and and so, you know, he like like you said before, he has some sort of disability, so he can’t walk. So he he propels himself off the toilet and is trying to, get to the door and the slugs are all around him, and you see one coming straight for him, and then, it cuts away. And and and then I feel like more stuff happens. I don’t even remember. At this point, I was getting so confused as to what was going on. I I think that there’s another, well, it turns out the cop had been following Chris and Cynthia, and so he heard Cynthia’s story, and so he takes Chris back to the interrogation room or whatever and out I think it’s his house. Is it his house? Yeah.

Todd:  I don’t know. Yeah, I think it’s his house. And just if it’s not, it has a sofa and a desk and it’s all over.

Craig:  Maybe it was his house. I don’t know. I was so lost, but out of nowhere for no reason, seemingly, the cop tells Chris, yeah, I had a first love Todd. And he tells this story about how he had found, the 2 people from the fifties, the couple from the fifties, he had found them all dead and chopped up or whatever, or the girl at least was chopped up, and he said, you know, I found that maniac and I took my 12 gauge shotgun and I unloaded it right into his chest and then I wrapped him up in plastic and buried him in an empty lot. But it’s not an empty lot anymore. Now it’s where the the sorority house mother’s cottage is. And Chris even says something like

Todd:  Look, detective. Now I don’t mean to be rude or anything, but other than just kinda wanting to confess to a murder, is there a point Todd the story? Spanky, that’s exactly what I’m trying to figure out. Like, what? I have no idea what is going on. I think, though, I think, honestly, I think there was a conscious effort on the right writer’s, part to poke fun at it. He said, I’m gonna write this goofy scene. I’m gonna write it so cliche and goofy, and then I’m gonna call attention to the fact that this is goofy and cliche. He’s because he’s even, like, because I got, like, a test tomorrow. Yeah.  And, of course, the next scene is this this, corpse of the axe murderer breaking through the the floorboards of the house mother’s cottage. Again, another classic cliche of the old lady watching TV late at night with her cat, the cat lady, you know, who suddenly, is one of the people to to meet her demise.

Craig:  Yeah. The I I normally, I would just let that go, but it’s kind of significant later. She actually has, a dog. We’ve already seen the zombie cat.

Todd:  Oh, that’s right. So she’s she’s got a dog. And this and and Which also gets zombified.

Craig:  Right. Which also gets zombified. And and, again, you know, I totally get what you’re saying when he said he wanted to throw in every little thing that he could. And I really felt like I I thought that that was the case as I was watching it because not only is this corpse of the axe murderer now zombified, but this was also a 27 year old corpse. So it’s a skeleton zombie. So now you’ve got a walking skeleton zombie walking around and, again, the cops somehow immediately discover that this house mother has been murdered. They immediately go on the investigation and they immediately find the skeleton zombie. And and, you know, our main cop, Ray is there, and he’s got his 12 gauge.  And he shoots, the the zombie again and the head explodes and the the slugs come out again. It’s just so many random things all all thrown together.

Todd:  Yes. But it’s also formal night. Right. And so we were getting the the montage shots of everybody getting ready for the formal. Again, more girls showering, guys putting on their tuxes and everything like that. And of course, Brad, right, is not going to the formal with her, and all the guys are heading onto a bus, I guess. Yeah. Like a party bus

Craig:  or whatever.

Todd:  Some distance away, and they’re all heading onto a party bus. And one of the guys says, hey. Where’s Brad? Have you seen him? It’s like, no, man. He, like, totally got ditched. So I think he’s, checking out on this one. Of course, Brad is stumbling around drunk, and he goes to the sorority house, and he throws a bottle at it. He’s mad, and it looks like he’s gonna confront her, but then he hears some rustling in the bushes. You’re right.  And he bends down and he looks and the dog comes up. The zombie dog comes up to him. And he’s, again, not looking at the dog, but he says, hey, dog. Did you see that thing?

Craig:  And then right. It’s hilarious. And then we get to see the dog, and it’s clearly, you know, some kind of puppet or animatronic and, it shoots one of the slugs out of its mouth into Brad’s mouth, which is is funny. You know, sometimes these slugs just just get to people on their own, but just as often, you know, one of the zombies will shoot one out of their mouth. Yeah.

Todd:  Their head doesn’t have to explode necessarily. Hilarious.

Craig:  And we we cut back to the party bus and, you know, they’re all partying or whatever. And the driver is watching the road and then zombie dog is in the Todd. So he swerves to, avoid hitting zombie dog and they get in this terrible crash where presumably all the frac guys are dead and then zombie dog, you know, crawls into the the wreckage and, you know, obviously we we know that we’re getting set up all these frat guys to now be, zombies too.

Todd:  Which I think is where the title of the movie comes from, Night of the Creeps. Night of the Creeps, right? It’s the creeps, that end up breaking out, the creepy college frackers who end up, and and so then it becomes your classic, zombie invasion, where they all end up at the sorority house, the policeman has beat, the cop has beat his way there, Brad has gone there because he’s taking her out to the formal. But before he gets there Craig,

Craig:  you’re zombie. Right? Craig, the main Chris.

Todd:  Yeah. Chris. But before Chris gets there, zombie Brad, rings the doorbell first. And, one of the girls opens and says, oh Cindy, it’s Brad. And just walks away. And he’s just standing there. So Sydney comes down again, another one of these people who doesn’t notice that there’s something seriously wrong with Brad.

Craig:  Right. It’s funny. It’s like the actress, you know, the direction on the on the stoop. And it’s like, I’m really sorry. I was gonna call you. One thing we left out, during that montage, during the getting ready montage again, here is another thing that, again, just made no sense to me. When when Chris is getting ready in his room, he finds a tape recorder that just has a note pasted to it or whatever that says play me and he plays it and it’s zombiejc

Todd:  saying

Craig:  some something infected me and it got in my brain and like the on the recording, zombiejc explains what’s going on, like they get in your brain and they they intubate there and you can still walk around, but, you can kill them with fire. Like, it was the most cliched explanation, you know, like it just seemed like it it came out of nowhere. JC is the only zombie who we have ever seen talk. He’s the only one that we’ve ever seen, you know, maintain any of his humanity. It it really doesn’t make, you know, there’s there’s no continuity, at all with with the whole zombie infestation. But but anyway, so Chris knows that they have to have fire. So he had gone, to the cop and he explained everything to the cop and I guess the cop just said, oh, okay. And they went to, I guess, like what? The weapons room or something? The

Todd:  for the cops? At first, I thought it was, you know, the place where they hold all the evidence, like the evidence room, but it clearly wasn’t. It’s more like the armory. Right. And and there’s a fantastic cameo here by Dick Miller. Yes. Dick Miller. What a great guy. Best actor in the whole film.  Probably. Probably. Absolutely best actor in the whole film.

Craig:  Yeah. And I was so I was so excited to see him pop up because we’ve talked about him before. Yep. You know, I know him mostly from, Gremlins. He’s the great the excellent neighbor from Gremlins, but, he he pops up in chopping mall, with people when we talked about chopping mall. And you told me that he was a pretty regular cameo in in whose movies? Roger Corman. Roger Corman used

Todd:  him in almost every movie.

Craig:  Yeah. So that was a lot of fun. And, yeah, he was funny. I mean, he’s only in it for maybe a minute, but, they get a flamethrower from him because apparently I know. Because apparently flamethrower is a thing that exists and that cops have in their arsenal. I know.

Todd:  And he’s like so nonchalant about it. He’s like, they’re they’re just laughing and joking like they’re the best of friends in the world. And he’s like, oh, I need a flamethrower. He’s like, woah, heavy artillery this time. And he just walks in the back where the flamethrower is sitting there. Yeah. Right. Right in his path.  Like he had just put it aside from, you know, they’d only used it like 10 minutes earlier. Not much call for these. So all I needed are requisition papers. And at this point, his buddy friend says, there’s gonna be a problem with that. And he cocks a rifle and aims it at him. Yeah.

Craig:  Yeah. I guess not so friendly anymore.

Todd:  I guess. Yeah.

Craig:  But they get So they get the flamethrower anyway. Yeah. It works. And, while Cynthia is sitting there talking to zombie Brad, Craig and the cops show up and Chris says, get away from him or something, and Cynthia looks over and sees that it’s the zombie. And Chris uses the flamethrower and, you know, takes out zombie Brad. And and that’s that’s really where the big showdown begins. And I think, it was the movie’s tagline, the cop gets in the sorority house and all the sorority girls are in there, and he says something like

Todd:  I got good news and bad news, girls. The good news is your dates are here.

Clip:  What’s the bad news?

Todd:  They’re dead.

Craig:  And it’s and then it’s zombie showdown at the sorority house.

Todd:  And I thought that was a pretty good sequence. I don’t know about you, but I thought it was pretty fun.

Craig:  Yeah. Sure.

Todd:  It it’s hard. Honestly, it’s hard to get super engaged with a movie like this. Like, you’re not on the edge of your seat necessarily hoping these characters are going to live. You Oh, no. At least I wasn’t. It’s like I honestly didn’t care. No. I wasn’t sure if the cop was gonna make it or not.  He kinda gets beset by the zombies after a while, but he goes down kind of in a blaze of glory. Right. And, and you think he’s dead. And then the 2 of them that that’s part where I thought was really kind of fun, having Cindy and Chris kind of buddying up. She with the flamethrower, he with his gun, kinda taking on the zombies. Yeah. A real nice sequence, I thought. Yeah.  It was it was entertaining.

Craig:  It was fun. I mean, it was a suitable ending. You know, that’s what you want from this kind of movie. You want there to be, if you’ve made it all this way through, you at least want there to be a nice, you know, showdown at the end, and and it was. It was fun. And you’re right. The 2 of them, Chris and Cindy, you know, Cindy with the flamethrower and Chris with the shotgun, and they’re taking out zombies left and right. Of course, these are all frat guy zombies.  And and, you know, the makeup and the effects are are kinda cheesy and cornball, but it it seems like that’s what they were going for. Like, it doesn’t seem like they were really going for realism. You know, they they were going for kind of b movie goofy. And Cindy and Chris at one point, like, there’s and again, these are, like, the slowest, most nonthreatening zombies ever. Like like, they’re literally, like, a foot away from Cindy and Craig. And Cindy and Chris are, like, trying to get into, like, this little garden shed or something. And, the zombies are are literally within reach. Like they could have easily just reached out and grabbed them, but no.  You know, they just kinda hang back and let them get in the the shed before they attack and, it’s funny.

Todd:  Yeah. And he I love that bit where he whips up the, the lawnmower.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  He’s like, go back. That was so great. It was actually Shades of Dead Alive. Have you ever seen Dead Alive?

Craig:  A 1000000 years ago, but yes. Oh, okay. Yeah. Made me think

Todd:  of that, the the notorious lawnmower scene against all the zombies. Correct. But, you know, I don’t know about you, but I felt like this this movie felt like it had been cut. And I mean, it felt like every time, like, an effect was happening, it was just a little too short.

Craig:  You know? Mhmm. Yeah.

Todd:  Like like, an ax would come at somebody’s head, and maybe it would split just a little bit, but but just very unsatisfyingly so. You know? Yeah. I I do know what you mean. Like, I wanna think that maybe if there was a DVD out there that there are an an there’s an unrated version or, you know, non deleted scenes or something where you can see the actual effects that happened, because it seems like it’s all set up for good effects. It’s not one of those, B movie, we didn’t have the money for special effects, so we’re gonna cut away before anything happens. That usually cuts away earlier.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  You know what I mean? Yeah. Whereas this felt like, oh, things are coming in contact. There’s a little blood spurt or there’s a little bit of skin peel or whatever, but then we cut away.

Craig:  Right. Yeah. I I felt the same way and that I think that that is what led to some of my confusion. Like I said early on, when Cindy had seen, you know, the very first zombie. And just for the like, a split second, I I didn’t really know what was going on, and I had to rewind. And you you kinda get that sense throughout.

Todd:  Well, there’s a really bizarre moment too. I don’t know if you caught it, but I actually freeze framed on it because I was like, what? Where the bus, you know, the dog’s in the in the way, and the bus driver’s coming towards him, and there’s the shot of the bus driver, and he’s reacting to the dog, and then there’s the shot of the dog, and then there’s like a half a second shot of the bus just as it’s Craig, And it’s of the bus driver, but the bus driver is clearly like a puppet or like a figure.

Craig:  I noticed that too and like his And his eyes pulled out.

Todd:  Eyes are glowing or something or bulging out. Right?

Craig:  Yeah. I did. What was that? I did notice. I have no idea.

Todd:  It was funny. I wanna think there was something cut. Like, something had happened, but they cut the scene beforehand. But why even have that split second shot in there in the first place?

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  It was just long enough to call attention to itself. It was so strange. But you know what? Honestly, I no. Go ahead.

Craig:  And that’s it. You know, you’ve got the zombie showdown and, you know, they take out all these zombies or whatever, and then, you know, Chris and Cindy see all the slugs going down to the basement and they’re and Chris says, why would they all be going to the basement? And it’s like light bulb. I mean, they they literally could have done the light bulb effect above Cindy’s head and she’s like, oh Craig. Because all those

Todd:  All those brains.

Craig:  Brains. Yeah. So they figure they’re all down there. So they, head down there. All of the slugs are congregating down there, but, the cop is already down there, and he’s, like, splashing gasoline around. And he basically just tells them to take off, and he starts counting down. And again, it’s so cheesy and weird and I’m like, what is he talking? He just starts going, 20, 19, and like there’s big long pauses between every number. What is happening? But luckily, Chris, I guess, has more insight than I do and he figures out that the guy’s counting down.  So Chris and Cindy run out. Chris continues the countdown,

Todd:  for himself. But it’s the worst countdown in the world because there’s such long pauses in there. How can Chris possibly continue it? Oh, Todd. No. How would he know? I don’t know. And then Chris goes Yeah. Thrill me.

Craig:  Thrill me. Yeah.

Todd:  And the house explodes.

Craig:  Yep. And and then Chris and Cynthia, of course, have their lovely romantic moments at the end and they kiss in front of the burning house. And in any normal movie, you would figure that that was going to be the end, but knowing what kind of movie this was, I knew that there would have to be some sort of tag. You know, we weren’t gonna get away with, just the cutesy, lovey dovey ending.

Todd:  Yep. Yep. We see some more feet shuffling far away from the fire, and they pan up, and it turns out to be the charred detective who apparently got Craig slugged Yeah. After the fire, but was in a good enough shape to crawl out of it without anybody noticing and get way down the street toward the cemetery.

Craig:  Still smoking his cigarette. Still.

Todd:  But he falls down and splatters, open, and the slugs slide out and go under a gate. And the camera slowly pans up on the gate, and it turns out it’s the cemetery.

Craig:  And I thought that was where it was gonna end because I thought that was pretty clever. I thought that was pretty clever for setting up, you know, kind of a night of the living dead thing. You know, these slugs can infect the corpses and then it’ll be, you know, night of the living dead zombies or whatever, but that’s not even it. We still got more.

Todd:  Yes. We have suddenly, there’s, like, a spotlight that shines down on one of the graves and then moves around a little bit and goes away. And then you see a ship come into Craig,

Craig:  the big ship that sucks.

Todd:  Spaceship. Like one that would have been noticed for miles away. Yeah. Look up slowly coming in the Craig, nobody else around, and it’s shining lights down like it’s searching,

Craig:  like it’s

Todd:  searching for the slugs that it lost. Now granted, 20 years later Right. 30 years

Craig:  later 30 years later.

Todd:  Like what? Where does that come from?

Craig:  I don’t know, but it was actually a pretty cool looking spaceship.

Todd:  It was. But the the effect was cool, and the idea was funny Yeah. And interesting. I guess these slugs might have had tracking devices in them. So once they activated or once, like, too many of them, like, reproduced, the the the spaceships could hone back in on where they were, Or maybe it just took them 30 years to finally get to where Maybe. You know, that spot on earth, and they just happen to be there at the right right

Craig:  time. Well, and again, I feel like it’s just that idea of just kinda throwing everything in. Like, I thought that, you know, it was really clever. Have the slugs go into the graveyard. That’s great. You know, they’ve got, you know, this whole harvest of bodies they can use. But no no no, not just that. Don’t forget, we’ve also got aliens.

Todd:  Don’t forget the aliens from the beginning. We have to bookend this thing.

Craig:  Yeah. Good stuff.

Todd:  Good stuff. And that’s it. Yeah. It is. You know, I think, honestly, the the acting is bad, but there are moments where you know the acting is supposed to be bad, like the cop. The cop is supposed to be over the top cheesy. I felt like the boys were supposed to be the straight characters, and they their acting wasn’t really very convincing or the best, although it had its moments. And the film itself is very well made

Craig:  It is. As far as cinematography. Yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. Lots of really creative camerawork, real nice swooping in. It’s it’s really surprising to me that, honestly, Fred Dekker really hasn’t done much else. I mean, he’s written a lot. He wrote apparently, wrote the screenplay for the Predator movie that’s in preproduction now.

Craig:  Oh, wow.

Todd:  And he he wrote the story for House, and, of course, he did Monster Squad. He wrote and directed that. He wrote the story for Ricochet, several Tales from the Crypt TV episodes. He did the screenplay for Robocop 3. Oh, wow. But I mean, almost everything I’m rattling off is like decades ago.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  You know? Right. And the last thing he directed was Robocop 3. It was Night of the Creeps, Monster Squad, an episode of Tales from the Crypt, and Robocop 3. Wow. Clearly a talented guy. Clearly has a heart for this sort of material. He just hasn’t put out a lot of it.

Craig:  Yeah. It’s interesting. But, you know, I’m a huge fan, of the monster squad. We you know, we’ve got to talk about that, at some point. So I I wish I I almost wish I had known that going in. I I think maybe I would have been more amped up for this movie, but, yeah, it’s, it’s different. You know, it’s again, you know, we watch a lot of older movies and and and talk about them. I I just don’t think that this kind of movie would fly anymore.  I I just don’t I feel like, there’s not really the market for it. I feel like those cheesy goofball terrible sci fi movies have kind of replaced this genre and it’s it I I guess in a way it’s kind of too bad because you’ve got guys like Fred Decker who really had kind of creative minds and, you know, interesting ideas and and now, you know, we’re just inundated with these thrown together, you know, Sharknado Fours or and whatever, which, you know, have their place and that’s fine. Whatever. You know, I’ll catch those on sci fi every once in a while, but they don’t they just don’t seem to have the same kinda of heart that this as goofy and silly as this movie is, you can tell that there is heart behind it. The people making it were, you know, they were they were doing something. They were trying to do something.

Todd:  Yeah, and whereas the Sharknado movies, you know, they they know they’re being silly, but at least they’re kind of original. And I think what this movie fails at is is really being terribly original. And I know that wasn’t his point. His point was to throw in all this stuff, every cliche he could think of. But at the end of the day, it really calls into question, is it really that great of an idea? I mean, do we really wanna watch that? You know? True. I I mean, I had fun watching the movie, but I don’t really wanna see other movies like it. Yeah.

Craig:  You know? I get what you mean.

Todd:  It’s one thing to, I guess, to throw cliches and things into a movie. Lots of times people then try to subvert those. You know? They throw a cliche in, but that like Cabin in the Woods does a fantastic job of subverting, you know, all those cliches. Right. It in my mind, it uses them a little more effectively, than this movie does, which just throws them all in. And by that matter of that fact alone, thinks you’re gonna think it’s funny, and goofy, you know. Right. Which it is, but maybe to me at least in in maybe all the wrong reasons.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  For all the wrong reasons.

Craig:  You know, again, we I feel like, you know, we’ve done so many episodes now. We keep repeating ourselves, but if I had seen this movie as a kid, as like an 8 year old or a 9 year old, I think I would have thought it was pretty awesome. But, seeing it now as a nearly 40 year old, it’s it’s it’s a little more eye roll, worthy, but I don’t know, a decent effort. You know, I didn’t I didn’t feel like I had wasted my time having watched it. It was alright, and and I was surprised that, you know, I I Night of the Creeps, you know, I’d heard that title a million times. I thought I had seen the movie watching it this time. I I couldn’t believe I hadn’t seen it. So I’m glad I’m glad that you picked it.

Todd:  Yeah. And I think I’m on the same page with you. I feel like for the for the completest, and for the person who loves these movies, you’re gonna get a kick out of it. Yeah. Are you gonna walk away from it wanting to watch it again or thinking it’s the best movie ever? No. Probably not.

Craig:  No. I I can’t believe we’ve gotten I feel like I have to say before we leave, I don’t I I can’t think of the guy’s name who did it, but whoever the guy was who did slither should Yes. Should be paying James Gunn. Yeah. He should be paying Fred Dekker royalties, because the the slug monsters are virtually identical to the slugs, in this movie.

Todd:  Oh, yeah. James got well, James it worked out a lot better for James Gunn. He’s the guy, behind Guardians of the Galaxy. Yeah.

Craig:  So

Todd:  Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. You could find us on iTunes and Stitcher, and you can find our Facebook page where you can leave a comment. Let us know what you liked about this episode and or suggest some other episode, some other movies for us to watch.

Craig:  Yeah. We love hearing from you guys.

Todd:  Until next week. I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Happy 4th of July! This episode has no relation to the holiday, but we thought we’d say it anyway. While you reminisce on ‘merica, why not take a trip back in time to the 80’s with us today to the timeless classic, The Lost Boys.

The Lost Boys (1987)

Episode 38, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Welcome to another edition of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig:  I’m Craig.

Todd:  And, today, Craig, I feel like we have to come clean with our listeners.

Craig:  Alright. If you think so.

Todd:  We’ve, we’ve missed a couple weeks. We had some technical difficulties. Of course, we posted that on our website and on Facebook. And then we were late getting this podcast out as well. And so I feel we owe everyone an explanation. I have moved to China about a month ago. My wife actually, 2 months ago now, isn’t it? My wife and I packed up our bags and headed to China. And, of course, we knew this was coming, so Craig and I had recorded our last 4 episodes before we left thinking that, well, about a month would give us enough time to get here, get settled into our apartment and stuff.  And, it turns out that, we had a hard time getting an apartment. We’re here in Beijing and apartments are at a premium. And so we were stuck in a hotel for about a month and a half. And while we were in that hotel, we had really crappy wifi. And so, between that and my computer breaking down, and then trying to get my computer fixed, in Beijing, not knowing any Chinese yet, all that just threw a big wrench in the works.

Craig:  Yeah. A little bit.

Todd:  So we were late getting out those last two podcasts that we recorded before I left the states. And then, of course, the Craig and I tried recording this, Lost Boys podcast last week, and, things didn’t go so well on our ends, this being our first time doing this via Skype. So, never fear. We are going to continue, with this podcast as long as we’re able, but we have to do it through Skype now.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  Like about, you know, 3 quarters of the other podcasters out there. So we are we are giving this another shot. So if you’re hearing this, then it came through just fine. Alright. So, anyway, the long story short, here we are. The Lost Boys. Right, Craig?

Craig:  Yep. Here we go.

Todd:  Now you chose The Lost Boys because you have fond memories of this from the from when you were a kid. Right?

Craig:  Right. Yeah. You know, this is again, I’ve said it a 1000000 times. This is one of those movies that one way or another we had on VHS, you know, I don’t know if my dad taped it off of, HBO or dubbed the tape. I don’t know, but, for as long as I can remember, this was just one that we always had readily available and I watched probably a 1000000 times. So yeah. And and I just, being, you know, a kid of the eighties, a boy of the eighties, it was it was kind of difficult to escape the whole the 2 Coreys phenomenon, and, I was a big fan right from the get go, and this was their first movie together. Both of them, Corey Haim and Corey Feldman, had been working actors since they were little boys, and they had both done stuff in the horror genre.  Corey Haim, had done Silver Bullet, which was the, adaptation of Stephen King’s Cycle of the Werewolf. Corey Feldman had done, one of the Friday 13th movies. He originated the Tommy Jarvis, character in one of the Friday 13th movies. And then this was the first time they came together, and then they did a whole bunch of stuff after. And I was, a big fan of of all of their stuff, as I think were a lot of, young people of our day.

Todd:  Yeah. The 2 Corey’s were like a staple of eighties, movies, and you’d get them

Craig:  a lot about this stuff, you know, nostalgia stuff with my friends. And, all my girlfriends, they were big Corey Feldman fans and and thought Corey Feldman was like the hot one. I always, was more of a Haim fan myself. I I don’t know what that says about me, but, yeah. Both of them, you know, big big Todd, of the eighties. Unfortunately, their their flames, burned out, a little bit as they got into the nineties and as they got a little bit older, but, made a lot of, really popular movies. I I, you know, I liked this one. I liked License Todd Drive.  Dream A Little Dream flew a little bit more under the radar, I think, but I was always a big fan of that movie Todd. Just just, you know, a fan of these guys in general. And and I think part of the reason for that is because you could tell in these movies that these guys really just had kind of a connection, a chemistry. You know, they were they were great friends in in real life. They went through a lot of stuff together, and, you know, that that continued through their adult lives. Unfortunately, they both struggled with some things. You know, Corey Haim, sadly, eventually met his demise due to some of the problems that he had. Corey Feldman has has since then spoken out and said that there was some abuse and stuff going on in the industry, which, is really sad.  But, nevertheless, they left their legacy with these handful of movies. And now, as a nearly 40 year old guy, I can still kinda look back on these, and it’s a nice reminder of a a different time.

Todd:  You know, it is, and I think that’s the thing that struck me the most about this this film. I have to admit that I have never seen this before.

Craig:  I can’t believe that. I don’t know how you’re a horror fan and you’ve got all the way through your life without having ever seen this movie. I mean, it’s not, you know, I we’ll get into it. I I I kinda consider this to be kind of a classic vampire movie, but I haven’t really sat down and watched it start to finish in probably years, and and having done that now, you know, it’s it’s it’s it’s dated. It’s, it’s maybe not held up as well as some of the others, but but really, you know, it’s kind of a definitive vampire movie. You still see these memes all over Facebook vampires, not this. And, you know, it shows, you know, the Edward Cullen’s or vampires, not this. And, you know, it shows, you know, the Edward Collins or whatever.  So I can’t believe you made it this far in your life without having seen it.

Todd:  You know, I can’t either, and you know, and it was always at the video store. It was always available to rent. I think to me, you know, it kind of disguised itself. It was never like a hardcore vampire movie. Right. You know? It always, even from the box art Todd just the reputation surrounding the film, is that it’s more of this sort of hip teenager movie Yeah. First, and a vampire movie second. Right?

Craig:  Yeah. Well, and it kinda, you know, it capitalized on kinda like the eighties glam rock, kinda thing, and that’s, you know, the the vampires are very much somebody you would have seen, in a hairband, of of the 19 eighties. And and so yeah. I mean, there was always and and it was young Hollywood, you know, you’ve got, Kiefer Sutherland, Donald Sutherland’s son, you know, who had done some stuff, I think, but this was kinda his big first, role, at least as far as I can remember. And then, you know, you’ve got the Coreys, of course, and then you’ve got, Jamie Gertz, who was really kind of a hot girl of, the eighties, did a lot of great eighties movies, and she, you know, she plays star in this movie. So yeah. It was, you know, it’s got a very MTV feel about it all around and so, maybe that kind of overshadowed the horror elements a little bit.

Todd:  Yeah. I think so. At least, that’s how I felt, and I think that’s what kept me away from the movie so much, is I thought, oh, this is gonna be such a hardcore horror film, and so I’m not gonna spend the time watching it. Now having said that and put it in and watched it, my gosh, this is the lost eighties movie that I’ve always wanted to see. Yeah. I mean, from the moment the music kicks in, you know, the soundtrack is just is just total eighties. It is Oh, yeah. It it’s so my style, actually.

Craig:  Right. Right. Yeah. The soundtrack. Yeah. It’s got I mean, it’s got these these great, like, you know, eighties rock music. The the the main song, Cry Little Sister, is is kind of an iconic song, in its own right. And it comes from here, and they’ve used it in every, you know, sequel, to this movie.  And, I don’t know. I mean, you’re you’re right. It’s it’s it’s solidly planted in the eighties.

Todd:  Oh, man. Is it ever. And, and it’s really has some really unique camerawork. I was really surprised actually at the style. It was clear that these guys were going for something very different. You get that immediate swooping, while the music is playing. You get that immediate swooping view into the, the fiction the Santa Clara, which is clearly Santa Monica, California, down onto the beach. And then, of course, these point of view shots from the vampires where you don’t see the vampires flying.  In fact, I’m not sure you ever see the vampires flying in this movie.

Craig:  Yeah. There’s just one little part where it’s very

Todd:  suggested towards the end. Yeah. Yeah. But you get that point of view where they’re swooping down on the the couple in the car and the security guard, who tells the guy it’s off and tells them to get off the carousel and get out, and then they come down and they have their revenge and and yank him away from the car as he’s going home for the night, pulling off that car door with it. It starts out being really cool, but then I feel like it happens over and over again, and it gets a little cheesy, I think, as the movie goes on.

Craig:  Yeah. You know, and I don’t  know what that you  know, I don’t know if  that was a stylistic choice or if it was budget constraints or what, and and you know, I think that had they tried to do a lot with showing the vampires flying around, that could’ve very easily gotten cheesy really fast. I’m almost, happy that they instead went the other route and kind of let us get these point of view shots where, you know, we hear the the wind kind of racing by as though, you know, we were flying through the air, and and you just have, you know, the perspective of the vampires attacking. You don’t really see the attack. You just kinda see it, from from their point of view. And, yeah, I think it works, but I can see where you’re coming from in saying that, maybe they could have changed it up every once in a while. Because, you know, they they they do utilize the effect a lot.

Todd:  Yeah. You’re right. With that eighties, special effects that were available at the time, it would have started to look kinda silly

Craig:  Right.  If they

Todd:  had done that. But, you know, I I guess, I guess it’s nice to leave a little bit of that to the imagination as well. Sure. Sure. The movie starts out, with this family that’s basically moved in. Father’s out of the picture for some reason. Was he re were they recently divorced?

Craig:  Is that what Yeah, I think so.

Todd:  Mhmm. And so you kind of think that that’s going to be an element throughout the movie, is this this family of 3, the mother, and the 2 sons really struggling to piece their lives together after a divorce. It really doesn’t go into those themes much at all, does it?

Craig:  Not very much. And it’s, you know, it’s a little sad because the mom is played by Dianne Wiest who is an a great actress. You know, she’s been working forever. She’s still working. You still see her all over. I think she’s got a a show on on network television right now, and she’s really good in this movie. You know, she’s young and and pretty and soft spoken and, you know, she’s a great eighties mom. You know, it’s the kinda mom I have a great mom, but, you know, it’s it’s the kind of mom you want.  She seems like a cool hip mom. And she’s got these 2 boys. Sam is, Corey Haim and Michael, Jason Patrick, you know, somebody else who, was was doing quite a lot in the eighties and early nineties. And, yeah, it sets it up as this dynamic, you know, this small family of 3 who’s been dislocated. They’re now moving, to this new city, Santa Carla. And after that whole intro thing with with the vampires on the boardwalk, that’s where we pick up. It’s just them coming into town. They pass the Santa Carla, billboard.  And after they drive past it, Michael, Jason Patrick, looks back and he sees on the back that it’s graffitied Todd it says the murder capital of the world. And so we know that there’s gonna be danger involved and and and that’s kind of where it goes. You’re right. We don’t get a whole lot of the family dynamic. There are a couple of scenes, after Michael kind of gets involved with the vampires and he’s starting to act strange, there’s one nice scene between him and the mom, Lucy, where she’s expressing her concern and  Michael, look at me. If if there’s a girl I’m tired, mom. We could talk about I’m tired. We could talk about anything you wanted to talk about. I have more serious things in my mind than girls in school. There’s things I’m dealing with that you can Things I wouldn’t understand.  She’s worried about him. And again, like I said, you know, she’s just so sweet and soft spoken, and she seems like the kind of mom that somebody could really open up to. But, it doesn’t explore that too much, which is is maybe a little bit of a weakness.

Todd:  Yeah. It It seems like it could have gone there, and it would have been a really interesting movie, but they instead tried to go this other direction and focus a little bit more on comedy, in what I felt like were some almost to me, the movie just felt like it didn’t know what it wanted to be. It didn’t know if it wanted to be this hip, scary vampire movie, or if it wanted to be a horror comedy almost on par with fright night or something like that. And it was jarring to me that you have these elements that were and, admittedly, pretty hip. And I think those parts, if you take out the cheesy eighties music, would really still hold up today.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  Where, it’s Michael as the older brother, and, you know, being the fresh guy in town, he sees this girl from across the way in the crowd while they’re watching this oiled up, saxophone player.

Craig:  Oh, god. I love that scene so much. You know, it it’s it’s iconic. You know? You the the whole scene, you know, a lot of the action takes place on this boardwalk where it seems like, you know, it’s the nightlife or whatever. And, yeah, I mean, as soon as Michael and and Sam get there, there’s a little bit of introduction where they, you know, they’re going to live with, their mom’s dad, grandpa. I don’t even think he’s ever given a name. They just call him grandpa, and he’s kinda quirky and funny and, you know, they kind of establish here’s where we are. But then the boys immediately kinda go out into the world and they’re exploring their new world, and Michael they go out at night on this boardwalk, and it’s just this it’s so eighties.  I I can’t I’ll probably say that a 1000000 times, but it it feels like one of those eighties concert videos, where you’ve got all the cool hip kids in the audience dancing around and sweating and, then you’ve got this guy in these purple hot pants on stage just doing this epic, like, saxophone rock solo and, oh, Todd. It’s funny. Yeah. And and and right away, you know, we get thrown into the plot where Michael sees this girl, Todd, played by, Jamie Gertz. And,  you know, they kind of share some furtive glances, and and then we get kinda thrown into the world. Yeah. He’s interested in Todd, so he starts chasing him. And of course, his little brother Sam is tailing along, like you really wanna follow that girl, and of course, when he gets to her, she’s hopped on the back,

Todd:  of a motorbike, with this gang that we had seen earlier Right. And led by Kiefer Sutherland’s character.

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  And it’s interesting here where you expect Kiefer Sutherland’s character whose name is David. David. You expect David, to be mad. You know, again, this this would be one of those scenes in the eighties movies where it’s like, what? You want you want some of my girlfriend? Well, new boy in town, Karate Kid style.

Craig:  You know, picking

Todd:  up his tires at him and blasting away or beating him up or something, but he doesn’t do that. He kinda looks at him, and it’s almost a come on, and then it’s almost a challenge, like, come get us.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  Kinda deal.

Craig:  Yeah. It’s you’re right. It it would be that classic Karate Kid thing. You know, let’s let’s duke it out, kinda see who the bigger man is or whatever. But instead, David, it seems at first like he’s challenging to a motorcycle race, but Michael says, you know, I I can’t beat your bike. And he says, well, you don’t have to beat me. You just have to you just have to keep up. And and so they go, you know, biking around and, eventually, they end up, at this I guess it’s like a rundown hotel.  Like, they they explained that there had been some big, earthquake in the seventies and this hotel had been sitting right on the fault line and the fault opened up and swallowed this hotel and this is their lair now. And And it’s really cool. It is really cool.

Todd:  It’s a neat update of sort of the, iconic Dracula in his massive castle, that’s sort of run down over the ages with cobwebs everywhere and broken furniture because it’s unkept. This is the same way, except it’s because the hotel’s been abandoned, and and it creates that layer that’s not only castle like, but it’s also cave like because it is underground.

Craig:  Right. Right. Right. And it you know, it’s it’s it’s dilapidated, but at the same time, it’s kinda got this hip eighties feel. It’s got the, you know, this huge poster of, Jim Morrison on the wall. And and that’s where they hang out. And, you know, we already assume that these I mean, going into it, we know this is a vampire movie. We know these guys are vampires.  But, of course, Michael doesn’t know. And it’s almost kind of like he’s being initiated into their gang. And and what surprised me watching this scene again was how manipulative David is in getting Michael dragged into their vampire group. It’s it’s kind of sexy and kind of seductive, but at the same time there’s a lot of trickery going on. What they do is they get him down there and then, David well, first, I I think he passes him a joint. You know, that happens really quick. He barely I didn’t even notice. I didn’t know what was going on there when I was a kid.  But then he says, we got some food. Let’s eat. And it’s Chinese food and he he passes, Michael, a take out container and and Michael starts to eat the rice. And David says, how you like those maggots? And and Michael, kinda laughs and, and thinks he’s joking, but then he looks down and it the box is crawling with maggots. And so he spits the rice out and throws it down on the ground.  Sorry about that. No hard feelings, Why don’t you try some noodles? They’re worms. I mean, they’re worms.  Tony.  They’re only noodles, Michael.  So there’s there’s this kind of trickery going on which leads up to them saying or David saying, okay. Here now, Drink this. And he’s got this bottle of wine, presumably, but it’s like this fancy gilded bottle, And he hands it to Michael and Todd comes around and says, you don’t have to do it. It’s blood. And Michael says, oh yeah, right. It’s blood. And he drinks it, and and that presumably then is what turns him into a vampire or, as we find out later, half vampire.

Todd:  As it plays around with the lore just a little bit.

Craig:  Right. Right. But I had never noticed, you know, I don’t know. I guess I wasn’t really thinking about nuance when I was 12 or whatever, but, you know, it was really kind  of a seductive manipulative thing and then from that point on, he sucked in, and there’s really no getting out of it. Yeah, and it’s interesting too because I guess instead of being that sexual vampire thing that you get an awful lot, which is almost part and parcel vampire, this is more macho

Todd:  in a way. It’s it’s that he doesn’t wanna look bad in front of this girl. Even though this girl obviously has a boyfriend, he clearly still wants to impress her somehow, but he also, maybe because he’s the new kid in town, is a little bit interested, in joining up with the bad boys. He’s maybe at that right age, that rebellious age, and so there’s a little bit of that too about the going through the adolescence or going through this particular phase of manhood, and this is the challenge part of the manhood. Right. And he even says at one Todd, David says, how far will you go? Right? Right. And and that’s almost the key message in this movie. It’s it’s it’s all a big challenge to him.  So it does play with that a little bit. There’s less of the sex sexiness and more of this masculine adolescent, challenge going back and forth and which works with the title of the movie The Lost Boys. You know? Right. It’s taken from Peter Pan, and the Lost Boys who, who never grow up. In a way, David’s sort of the leader of these of these Lost Boys who aren’t gonna grow up because they’re immortal. It it’s really an interesting idea, and there’s a bit of bit of background behind how this movie came about too. Right?

Craig:  Yeah. You know, and that’s something that I, of course, I didn’t know at the time, and I I think I only read about fairly recently is that the original script was inspired by Peter Pan. I don’t know. I don’t have the scriptwriter’s name written down, but the original concept was he thought, you know, with the story of Peter Pan, if you strip it down to what, you know, its bare essentials, you’ve got these boys who never age, who never grow up, and who, you know, come and kind of seduce other children to come into their Craig. And and that was this movie was initially kind of supposed to be a dark Peter Pan story. In fact, I believe David’s name was eventually the leader of the vampires. His name was, originally going to be Peter. The 2 brothers were going to be, Michael and John.  John. Yeah. Michael and John, because those were the the young boys and Peter Pan. Lots of connections. I think the mom’s name was going to be Wendy, and and one of the only things that ended up surviving was, the dog’s name. Corey Haim has a dog in the movie. It’s named Nanook, and I had never put together the the dog in Peter Pan is named Nanny. And so there’s there’s all these connections.  When throughout the process of getting the movie made, the filmmakers decided that and originally, the vampires were supposed to be like 5th or 6th grade, kind of age. Yeah.

Todd:  It was almost gonna be like a Goonies vampire movie. Right.

Craig:  Yeah. And Richard Donner produced this, you know, the director of, of The Goonies, and and that was their original go. But somebody, you know, some executive or somebody thought that wasn’t cool enough. It wasn’t sexy enough.

Todd:  I think it was Joel Schumacher, the actual director, who came on and said, look. I’m not interested in this unless we change it and make it more, you know, make the boys older.

Craig:  Right. Right. And and so they did. And and, you know, in doing that, it it lost a lot of those connections, and and that’s fine. You know, the the movie is stands alone, without those elements perfectly fine, I think. But, you know, that would that would have been an interesting movie.

Todd:  Yeah. It would have been twist on Peter Pan. Well, it feels like the movie still left a little bit of an imprint of those earlier versions because you have Michael’s younger brother, Sam, who’s just almost just bears witness to this over the course of Michael’s transformation. And he has, piled up a little bit again in another, I guess, a younger sort of of asserting yourself way, with the 2 comic book, store owners played by Corey Feldman and Jameson Newlander, Edgar Frog and Alan Frog, and I

Craig:  guess they’re

Todd:  brothers. And and it’s a little silly, I think, and I think it’s really kind of a knock against the movie, the comedy that they really play. Corey Feldman, to be honest, his acting’s not that great in this movie, and and really neither is Corey Hames.

Craig:  Yeah. I it comes across as a little juvenile, and I I see what you’re saying with, you know, it it kinda not knowing what it wants to be because all of the stuff with, Michael and and David and the other vampires, that’s pretty straightforward horror stuff. But then you’ve got this other plot line with, you know, Corey Haim meeting the Craig brothers, Edgar and Allen, you know, wink, wink, Edgar Allen. And and that’s all played for the comedy. And really, most of Corey Haim’s stuff is played for the comedy. And when those two worlds collide, it I I don’t know. It’s it’s like it it just Todd yeah. And it doesn’t it’s like 2 puzzle pieces that just don’t quite fit.  Like like you’re trying to force them

Todd:  to fit together, and they just don’t quite fit. And we’ve seen, you know, really good horror and comedy even in this era work really well. I I keep going back to Fright Night. I I think Fright Night strikes as great balance between humor, but also is utterly terrifying at at moments. And I think it bounces between the 2 really well. This movie just doesn’t seem to do that. Michael goes out with the guys. Of course, he starts feeling ill.  There’s the big scene where they go out onto a bridge, and, they’re laughing, and the gang, led by led by David, 1 by 1 Todd to drop below the bridge and challenge Michael to fall down with him. And so he jumps down because he still hears their voices coming up through the fog, And they’re just hanging, you know, from this bridge, and then the train goes across the bridge. And the train’s rattling the bridge, and it seems like it’s very difficult for them to hold on. In the meantime, Michael’s terrified. These guys are laughing, and 1 by 1, they let go and tell him to let go. And, the only reason he lets go is because after they let go, he can still hear their voices through the fog. And I

Craig:  don’t know.

Todd:  Maybe it’s a little unclear. Maybe it was just getting too hard for him to hold on, but he finally does let go. He falls through the fog in what in what you thought was a really super, silly scene.

Craig:  Yeah. You know what? I don’t remember thinking it silly at the time. You know, this movie came out in 1987. I I’m sure I probably didn’t see it until a couple years after that. But even then, I would have only been, like, 10, 11, 12, you you know, probably when I first saw it. And I don’t remember thinking it cheesy at the time, so maybe we’ve just kinda gotten spoiled with the kinds of effects they can use now. But, you know, really, you know, this fall through the fog, it almost looks like, you know, they just put him in a room, filled it up with fog, and then just kind of told him to like thrash his upper body around, you know. That’s right.  It looks kinda goofy. And, you know, going back to the whole comedy thing, again, you know, I think it may just be our modern sensibility because I at the time it worked for me. You know, I liked it at the time. In fact, I think maybe at the time, I almost related more to the younger characters, probably because I was more their age, you know, the older characters were, you know, you know, the big kids, you know, that I didn’t really fit in with. So, you know, we can sit here and and both of us, you know, be a little bit critical of the movie, but I loved it. I loved it as a kid, and it it’s it almost pains me a little bit now to kinda go back and look at it with a more critical eye. So, you know, as much as I criticize it folks out there, be aware that, that it’s coming from a place of love because I, you know, as as eighties and cheesy as it may come across sometimes, I still like it and I would still and will, I’m sure, you know, keep watching it.

Todd:  Well, you know, yeah, you kinda bring up an interesting point there. I mean, I guess having those elements, where they’re back in the house and the younger brother is quizzing the older brother and thinks he’s a vampire and is trying all the silly stuff on him and is going back to the comic book guys who are like, you just need to stake them. You just need to stake them. That part, being able to relate better to maybe that aspect when you’re younger, helps the movie to bridge a bit of a gap a generation so that it it can appeal both to the older of the teenagers, it can appeal to the preadolescents, maybe in the audience or the adolescents in the audience whose parents might have taken them to see it.

Craig:  I think so. And and I think that the movie, you know, I I think that the audience that they were going for was, you know, a young audience, you know, teenagers, adolescents, you know, I I’m sure adults enjoyed it as well, but it it really seems targeted towards a younger audience. And and that scene that you’re talking about, you know, Michael comes home and and he is, you know, starting to experience these symptoms, I guess, of being a vampire, and he’s really sensitive to light, and, he’s really tired during the day or whatnot. And, you know, that that worries his mom and she tries to talk to him, but that doesn’t really go very far. And it’s it’s then, you know, we’ve kind of left out the and there’s there’s lots of these little side stories going on too, you know, we just get it kind of jumps from scene to scene keeping us up with people. The mom has gotten a job at a video store. She’s working for this guy, named Max who’s the owner of the video store, and and they’re kind of starting this romantic relationship. And she wants he he’s invited her out to dinner and she wants to go.  She asks Michael to stay home, with Sam, and he reluctantly he doesn’t want to, but he reluctantly agrees. And then there’s this goofy scene with Corey Haim taking a bubble bath, and he’s, like, singing this goofy song. And and meanwhile, Michael is downstairs and it’s like his vampire impulses are overcoming him, like he he can’t control it and he kind of vamps out, You know, we we his face changes, and and he starts to head up, and it it looks like he’s going to attack his brother. But the, the dog, Nanook, senses something is off. And, as Michael bursts into the room, at the same time, Sam goes down underneath the water, and so he doesn’t see Michael in his vampire state. But Nanook, the dog, jumps up and attacks Michael, which, you know, Sam hears that and comes up out of the water and and they start talking and and Michael says  Who’s protecting you? Look at your reflection in the mirror. Your creature of the night, Michael. Just like out of a comic book.

Clip:  You’re a vampire, Michael. My own brother, a goddamn sucking vampire.

Craig:  Oh, you wait till mom finds out, buddy.  The suggestion here and and the Craig brothers who’ve already warned, Sam, about vampires in Santa Carla, you know, they they explain later that, you don’t become a full vampire until you make your first kill. So Michael is not yet a full vampire. He’s only a half vampire, which is why he can be out in the day, why his, reflection is still partly there. And then, you know, as soon as that happens, Sam calls the Craig brothers and it’s just there are places where the comedy is goofy, but still even today there are some of the things that just cracked me up. Like, he’s on he’s on the phone with the Craig brothers and and they’re asking him all these questions.  You did the right thing by calling us.  Does your brother sleep a lot?  Yeah. All day. Does the sunlight freak him out? He wears sunglasses in the house. Bad breath, long fingernails.

Clip:  Yes. Fingernails are a bit longer.

Craig:  He always had bad breath, though.  You know, just stupid jokes, but, I I I found myself, laughing regardless of how, immature some of the humor may have been.

Todd:  Yeah. And then there’s a later scene too, where is it is it later that night or when is it when he gets swept out the window?

Craig:  I I think it’s that same night. You know, all of this only takes place over a few days.

Todd:  That’s true.

Craig:  Yeah. I think it’s it’s later that night, because the mom is still on her date, you know, after this whole thing where, you know, he almost attacked his brother, I guess, Michael goes to sleep. And when he when he wakes up, he’s floating on the ceiling, and and it’s like he can’t control it or doesn’t yet know how to control it and so he kind of flies out the or floats out the window, and, Sam is on the phone with his mom. The mom has called from her date to check-in, and and Sam sees Michael floating outside the window and he starts freaking out on the phone screaming, help. He’s a vampire. He’s gonna get me. He’s gonna get me. And of course the mom’s freaking out and she has to run out on her date, but, you know, eventually Michael says, you know, Sammy helped me.  I’m your brother. And and he does. He helps him in and and, that’s kind of where their whole quest to figure this out begins. You know, how how are we gonna get out of this, bad situation?

Todd:  Yeah. And they get their information all from comic books. And so this is their

Craig:  main goal. Books are all strikingly accurate. Everything can be explained by the comic books. At one point, Sam is is reading one of those horror comics and it’s talking about the hounds of hell, and right after we and it shows, you know, this ferocious dog. Right after that, Sam and, his mom, Lucy, go to Max, the video store owner. They go to his house during the day. The mom says that she wants to drop off a bottle of wine to apologize because she had just run out on the date. She hadn’t, you know, she hadn’t even explained to him what was going on.  She had just run out. And, as as she goes to try to deliver the wine up to the house, Max’s dog, Thorn, growls at and starts to chase her really viciously and and almost attacks her. And of course, you know, that that gets Sam thinking, know, that must be one of the hounds of hell. He must be guarding Max. So maybe Max is a vampire and

Todd:  Yeah. Well, because because Edgar and Alan are saying that there’s there’s there’s always a leader. There’s a master vampire.

Craig:  A head vampire. Right.

Todd:  And if you kill that guy, then all the rest of them, you know, turn back to normal or die or something. And so they’re piecing 2 and 2 together and thinking, oh, well, it must be Max because he’s the video store owner. The video store doesn’t open until late.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  And goes through the nights, and he wasn’t there, and he has the dog and all this stuff. And so they decide they’re gonna set up, like, a test for him while, their mom, Lucy, has him over to her house. Right. She decides she’s gonna make something in order to make up for running out on the date, and the boys are gonna be there too. And so then you get another one of these super comical scenes where the boys have, prepared, they splash water on him during the the the, meal. They’ve prepared Parmesan cheese, but they’ve mixed a whole bunch of minced garlic in with it. Right. Ask him if he wants to put it on his, on his Spaghetti.  Spaghetti. And, they show a mirror at him. And it’s just this little comedy of of errors where they’re slowly sabotaging the dinner, and everybody’s like, what’s going on? What’s going on? In the meantime, none of this stuff is working. Right. He could he could eat the garlic. They see his reflection in the mirror. He’s not fazed by the water. Right.  Nothing bothers him. And and it’s it’s again, it’s one of those totally really silly moments in a movie that then follows up, I believe, with Michael searching out Todd again, finding her in the lair, and them having a a like a like, this long eighties, like, sex scene.

Craig:  Right. And it’s I don’t even remember. I the the movie’s probably what is it rated? Do you know? Is it PG 13? It’s it’s r. Is it r? Okay. Yeah. It is. It’s it’s a very soft r. I mean, there there is there are a couple of, fairly gory scenes.  At some point, the vampire gang takes Michael out. I think that’s maybe a little bit later, but yeah. This, this sex scene, it’s it’s so I mean, it it looks like a music video. I mean, it’s there’s there’s very little skin, you know, it it you know, they’re not really doing anything more than making out kind of under, like, this gossamer, you know, bed thing.

Todd:  As the camera swoops around slowly.

Craig:  Right. Right. It’s very foggy and the music is playing and, it’s it’s funny to me. I didn’t realize that it was R. I guess, we find out, soon after that. Todd comes and finds Michael at his house and Sam’s there Todd. And she says, you know, that that was supposed that meeting, our meeting last night, or earlier that night or whatever, you were supposed to be my first. You were supposed to be my first kill.  And that’s kinda where we get the whole concept of Todd and Michael and there’s a little boy, in the group too, Laddie. Just

Todd:  kind of shows up. Yeah.

Craig:  I mean, he’s there the whole time. I I never knew, as a kid who this little boy was. At at one point in the movie, Dianne Wiest puts a, carton of milk, in the refrigerator And just for a split second, you see that Laddie’s face is on the carton of milk. So he’s a missing child. I read online that, it it Star is very protective of Laddie throughout, and so I always kind of thought maybe that he was like her little brother or something, but what I read online was that no, he’s no relation. It’s just, they almost got him for Star almost as like a pet, like a companion. Oh. But but they you know, Star, Michael, and Laddie are just half vampires until they kill somebody, and if they can control themselves and keep themselves from killing someone, and if they can kill the head vampire, then they can go back to normal.  The only gory scene that that I can really think of off the top of my head is, at one point, I think it’s right around this point in the movie, Michael and the other vampires take, excuse me. David and the other vampires take Michael out, I guess kind of for his true initiation. They crash this beach party. It’s like skinheads partying on the beach or something, and this is the first time that Michael sees all of the vampires turn fully and they attack these skinheads on the beach, and that gets pretty graphic. There’s one image that always, when I was a kid, always freaked me out. One of the vampires, I don’t remember if it’s David or one of the others, grabs one of the skinheads and takes a bite out of his skull like he’s taking a bite out of an apple and and the blood just sprays everywhere. And even as a lover of horror as a kid, that part always kinda had me hiding behind my fingers a little bit.

Todd:  Well, it’s brutal, but it’s really stylishly shot where you really just see snippets and quick flashes of what’s going on, sometimes even in shadow, and the blood all had yeah. The the blood kinda sprays, but it’s a little thin, and it’s a little fast. I I thought that was a truly terrifying moment in the movie. Yeah. Yeah. I honestly didn’t even imagine we were gonna get you know, that happens, oh, a good at least halfway through.

Craig:  Yes. Yeah.

Todd:  And up to a point, I was wondering, are are these vampires even gonna gonna have fangs? You know? Right. Are we gonna even see them? Is it gonna be that hip that this is the fangless vampire movie? Right. But, no, they go full on right there. And it’s interesting to see Michael struggle with that. He doesn’t want to kill, but at the same time, he’s feeling the urges. And you wonder if he’s going to succumb, and he doesn’t. It’s really a powerful moment, you know, in in the movie. I really enjoyed

Craig:  it.  Yeah. It it is a good moment, and and, you know, still there’s more of that seduction. You know, Michael, he vamps out too. Yeah. I I keep saying vamp out, you know, like that’s something that people say, you know? I I this, this this movie, was, the first use of that phrase and it kinda has gotten picked up, in pop culture. They used it in Buffy the Vampire Slayer all the time. And, I I think it’s it’s worth noting that, you know, when they do vamp out, you know, the makeup is really good. You know, they’re they’re scary vampires, and and, the design of the vampires in, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is one of my favorite shows ever.  It was you know, I I think they clearly took some inspiration from these vampires. But that scene is good because it’s more of the seduction. Michael doesn’t give in. He kind of falls they’re like in a tree or something, and and he kind of falls out of the tree off down this sand dune, and the other vampires in this great image come walking up over the sand dune, you know, lit from behind, and come walking down to him, and and David says So  now you know what we are, and now you know what you are. You’ll never grow old, Michael, and you’ll never die, but you must feed.  It’s a seductive thing. You know, that there’s that’s that’s saying a lot. You’ll never grow old and you’ll never die. There’s just this one little one little glitch.  You gotta  you gotta eat people.

Todd:  Well, you know, and you gotta hand it to Kiefer Sutherland. He in one of his, first big screen roles, he is fantastic. He is. When he’s not vamping out, he’s he’s freaky. He just seems like a character with so many different layers to him.

Craig:  And and he’s a great actor. Again, you know, this cast is really pretty impressive. Again, you know, the young people, a lot of them at the beginning of their careers, but many of them went on to do great stuff. Kiefer Kiefer Sutherland’s gone on to do great stuff. He’s he’s really baby faced in this movie. I mean, he looks really young, but at the same time, he’s really got that bad boy dangerous thing going down. He’s a sexy guy in this movie. Yes.  Even as a even as a bad guy, you know, he’s a he’s a cool guy even though he’s the villain. You know? He’s he’s badass.

Todd:  Yeah. And and that really adds a lot to it. I think the casting, really saved this movie for being, well, really made this more of an iconic movie Right. Than it might have been otherwise. Right. Was it really successful when it came out? It was a pretty big deal, wasn’t it?

Craig:  Or was it so. I mean, I don’t I don’t remember. Again, I was just a kid, so I don’t really remember. But, I think it was pretty successful, and, you know, clearly there’s been a cult following. I mean, this is movie that came out in 1987 and you still see references to it all over the place or at least I do. You know, if you frequent any, horror forums or websites or whatever, you know, I see reference to this all the time. So it it’s it’s left its mark.

Todd:  And so, basically we come to a big showdown toward the end, don’t we? Yeah.

Craig:  I mean this is what it comes down to is okay, so they realize we gotta if if we’re gonna get out of this, we gotta find the head vampire. Michael knows where their lair is, so, he and and Sam and the Craig brothers, steal the grandpa’s car and, go there during the day, where presumably all the vampires are asleep, and they go in and, you know, I always, even as a kid, thought this was funny, you know. They go into the lair, and they’re, like, shouting back and forth to one another. Like, there’s nothing covert or sly about this at all.

Todd:  That’s right. And before that, of course, there’s that, again, one of those silly scenes where they’re running around gathering all the material.

Craig:  Yes.

Todd:  And they’re going and filling their squirt. They barge into a church when a couple’s having a wedding. Yeah. And everybody in the church just goes silent and turns around and stares at them while they fill their squirt guns with holy water from the receptacles at the front. And then they run out, and everyone just looks like,

Craig:  Right. It’s silly. You know, it’s a a classic eighties montage with the eighties music in the background. It’s it’s pretty funny.

Todd:  Yeah. But

Craig:  the so they get there and and, the Craig Brothers are all gung ho, and they go into you know, they they figure that the vampires must be somewhere deep in in the caves or or whatever, and they go looking for them and they’re looking for them in coffins and they they don’t find them in coffins. Instead, they find them hanging from the ceiling like bats, which I thought was really cool.

Todd:  Yeah, it’s very cool.

Craig:  And David, wears this big black, I don’t know if it’s leather or what, like this big black trench coat throughout. And so when he’s hanging upside down, the trench coat is kind of draped down around him almost like batwing’s, cool image. They they don’t know, you know, they’ve just got to start somewhere, so they say, okay, we’ll start with this one. And they go to stake one of the smaller vampires. I don’t know his name. It’s it’s the one from Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure, not Keanu Reeves, the other one.

Todd:  Oh, yeah.

Craig:  And they they stake him and blood just shoots out like it’s spraying all over. But it’s not like normal blood, like it’s sparkly like glitter blood. It’s the

Todd:  lamb rock blood. Totally. Right.

Craig:  Right. And it you know, they’re all the boys, the Craig Brothers and Sam are just drenched in blood, but the vampire screams as as he’s dying and that wakes the other vampires up. And so the boys start running And it’s almost like they kinda have to crawl up a shaft. And this was the part where you kinda get the suggestion of them flying. David takes off after them. And as the boys are kind of laboriously making their way up the shaft, David just kind of glides up it, and grabs, Corey Haim’s ankle and starts pulling him down. The Craig brothers are pulling him up, and and they’re able to pull him up far enough, so that, David’s hand gets pulled into the sunlight where it erupts in flames. So he lets go and pulls it back, and then it’s this great shot where it’s just a close-up of his vampire face, and he’s kind of screaming in pain at first and then he stops and his face kind of calms a little bit into just this, you know, rage.  One tear streams down his face and he just says, tonight. And I read that, that tear was not scripted. It was a total accident. You know, he’s got these these crazy contacts in for his vampire makeup, and they were irritating his eyes so much, that it it just made him Craig. And it was just a lucky coincidence, and they kept it, and it really worked well for the scene. And that’s one of the scenes, you know, that it’s it’s really scary. It’s very ominous, and, I remember that being one of the ones that I remember a lot from when I was a kid.

Todd:  Oh my gosh. That shot’s incredibly cool. I at that moment, my heart just kinda left for a moment. Mhmm. It’s so good. I mean, what a happy accident.

Craig:  Right. Right.  And then that leads up subtle thing.  Yeah. Yeah. And and that leads up to the final showdown. I mean, we get to the climax where, the the guys well and meanwhile, Michael has gotten Laddie and Todd out of the lair. They they all, you know, pile in the grandpa’s car and head back to the house. The mom has another date with Max, so she’s gonna be gone. They they somehow trick the the grandpa into being gone, and they kind of prepare themselves for, you know, what they know is gonna happen. These vampires are gonna come after them that night, and that’s exactly what happens.  So they they kind of set up some traps, like, they they put holy water they fill the bathtub with water and put holy water in it, and they they put a bunch of garlic in that. They’ve got all kinds of weapons set up, and they just basically wait for this siege which then happens. You know, night falls and and here come the vampires, and it’s the final showdown.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s it’s like the the end of a Nightmare on Elm Street where they have all these traps set. Again, montage setting setting all that up. And, sure enough, the vampires come, and, they dispatch them 1 by 1. 1 comes in, to the bath room. You’re mine.

Craig:  You killed Marco. Yeah. You’re next. You’re next. Now we’re, like, doing work, boys. My holy water, dead breath.  They splash some, holy water up on his face and it burns and it’s a cool effect and, you know, he’s all scarred from that. But then the vampire is still coming after them, but Nanook, the dog heroically, comes in and and jumps up on the vampire and knocks him into the the tub where he kind of explodes. And as as they were preparing for all of this, Corey Feldman’s character had said no 2 vampires go the same way. You know, some explode, some implode, some go out screaming, some go quietly, and that really foreshadows the deaths of all the vampires, to come. This first one who dies like an atom bomb. What was that? He goes

Todd:  out like an atom bomb.

Craig:  Right. Right. Not only does he kind of explode in the bathtub, but like it explodes all of the plumbing in the whole house, and it’s, you know, water spraying everywhere. And then the next one, attacks. They they all split up. They somehow, not intentionally, but they all get split up in the house. So Corey Haim, is left to to battle the next one kind of by himself, and he’s got these arrows, and he he shoots the vampire with an arrow, but he misses the heart on the first, shot, but then he shoots again and he he gets it and, it it it launches the vampire back into the stereo which then comes on and, it’s almost like the vampire is being electrocuted while he’s being staked and the loud rock music is playing. And, once he’s dead, Corey Haim.  It’s so cornball. But I just thought it was so funny when I was a kid. He’s like,  death by stereo. Just  the goofiest silliest eighties jokes but, my my 12 year old self got a kick out of it.

Todd:  Yeah. My, 38 year old self thought it was pretty silly. That’s one part that doesn’t hold up very well.

Craig:  Oh, no. It’s totally cheesy. I don’t I don’t care.  I still love it. Yeah. It’s okay.  Then the, Laddie, the little boy kind of vamps out for a second and and the Craig brothers kinda start to go after him, but Todd protects him. And then we’re we’re down to the final battle, which is the battle between, Michael and David. And and this this is the only place where the flying really comes they have their whole battle, in the air, like in this, you know, big open, living area in the house. And that I thought it was pretty cool, pretty effective, especially, you know, for what they had available as far as effects go at the time.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s really neat, and it’s a great climactic moment where Michael now suddenly has to give into his rage. Only this time, instead of giving into his rage, towards feeding on an innocent victim, he’s turning that towards David. And I thought thematically, that was really, really good. Yeah. It’s it’s fighting fire with fire that really puts them on uneven playing field right here, and you’re really wondering who’s gonna, you know, who’s gonna survive at the end.

Craig:  Right. And it it all happens very quickly. Michael gets a Todd of David in the air and and pushes him back towards, the wall where there are, like, some antlers. The the the grandpa that they live with, does taxidermy. So there’s all this taxidermy all around, but it it misses. David just hits the wall and he says you missed or something like that. And David, then starts pushing Michael back towards this the taxidermy room, which is just full, of antlers and stuff. And it almost looks like like David is gonna win, but at the last second Michael grabs hold of the door Craig and is able to turn David around and he impales David on the antlers.  Now when I was a kid, I always had a big problem with this because lore, typical lore, says that you have to kill a vampire with a stake through the heart. Now usually it’s a wooden stake. Sometimes if you go back, you know, even further, silver stakes worked in some stories, but antlers are neither wood nor silver. And so I I I never really understood why David died from this injury, And he dies really quietly, you know, his face goes back to kind of his human look, and and it’s almost sad, like you almost kind of see Yeah. The little bit of humanity, in David as as he’s dying. What I what

Todd:  I go ahead. And with Kiefer Sutherland having that kind of boyish look again

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  You know, it’s almost like he’s going back to a boy. He does have a it’s touching Right.

Craig:  In a

Todd:  way that you wouldn’t expect. Right. He’s a victim at that you know, you realize he’s a victim just as much as anybody else at that point.

Craig:  Right. Right. Exactly. What I read online was that initially in the script and and when they filmed it, it was meant to be kind of left open because they had already planned a sequel and they had planned on bringing David back for the sequel, so he wasn’t supposed to be really dead. But of course the sequel the sequel was supposed to be The Lost Girls, and it was supposed to, you know, obviously just be kind of a spin off, but David was gonna appear. Of course it it never materialized, But so anyway, within the context of the movie as a standalone film, he’s dead. But Todd and Michael and Laddie are unchanged. You know, they they now have killed all the vampires that they know of, but apparently, they have not yet gotten the head vampire because nothing has changed.  Mhmm.

Todd:  And, of course, who’s the only one who that could possibly be is, Max. And, sure enough, Max, Max appears. Did Max just come in?

Craig:  Max and the Max and the mom were on a date.

Todd:  That’s right. Max and the mom were on a date.

Craig:  I don’t remember. I I think that we got a little bit of a scene where, Lucy was telling Max, you know, I’m worried about my boys. And it almost seems like they had come home to check on the boys. And, of course, they get there, you know, right as everything has ended, and the house is a wreck. Everything’s destroyed. Lucy comes in. She’s freaking out. Sam’s trying to calm her down.  Meanwhile, Max walks into the room and and sees David’s dead body and doesn’t immediately freak out as you would expect one might upon encountering a dead body. Instead, he turns around and walks back in and says, I’m sorry, Lucy. This is all my fault. And then he explains, I he says, I thought he says, my boys misbehaved, and that’s where they figure out that he’s, the head vampire. And he explains and and, you know, we talked about this that I don’t know. It’s kind of loose storytelling. But, he explains that all along his goal was to get Lucy. He wanted Lucy.  And so to do that, he thought that if he were able to draw her boys into the fray that then she would have no choice, but to join them and and join him. It’s,

Todd:  it’s so convoluted. I mean, it it’s so convoluted. It requires so much, chance, but also, I just don’t get it. I mean, she was falling for him anyway.

Craig:  Right. You

Todd:  know? And so I don’t see how, he couldn’t have just gone directly for her. Right. It was working just fine.

Craig:  Right. Well, I mean, I guess, you know, when it comes down to it, he could have just taken her by force, and then she would have been a vampire and wouldn’t have had any choice in the matter, and that may have been the end of it. I guess what we’re supposed to think is that his reasoning was that she would, you know, she wouldn’t wanna leave her boys behind, in order to be with him. But like you said, I mean, it’s it’s pretty convoluted. I mean, he could’ve just taken her if that’s what he really wanted.

Todd:  Well and then and then we get the even more silly, way that David that Max is dispatched, which is suddenly out of nowhere, deus ex machina.

Craig:  Oh, god. Yeah. Definition. Yeah.

Todd:  Drives crashes through the house at just the right moment with a truck loaded with giant stakes, which he had been sharpening up his fence posts earlier

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  Right through the heart of, of Max, the body of Max.

Craig:  Right.  It is so goofball. Oh, it’s totally corny. Yeah.

Todd:  And and then he gets out, and he surveys the damage, walks to the fridge, grabs one of his root beers out of there, and says the goofy ending line.

Craig:  One thing about living in Santa Carla, I never could stomach. All the damn vampires.  While Lucy and Sam and and, Michael and Todd just kind of look on. Yeah. I mean it is it’s it’s Todd you know it ends really quickly like you said deus ex machina. It’s exactly that. I don’t know. It it never bothered me, and and that that final joke, you know, I always it’s it’s very wink wink at the audience, but I I just it always made me smile and still kinda does. I don’t know the name of the guy. Oh, no.  I do. The the grandpa was played by Bernard Hughes, and I don’t know what else he’s been in, but he’s a totally recognizable guy, you know, always plays this kind of crotchety grandfather type and, he doesn’t have much to do in the movie, but those little one he zings these little one liners every once in a while and he’s funny. But, yeah, I mean that’s that’s it in a nutshell. You know, the way we’ve talked about it it it I don’t know. I feel like we’re not giving it credit where where credit is due. You know, there’s a lot of good stuff about the movie. You know, the the vampire effects, the makeup is is excellent, I think. There’s there’s some

Todd:  go ahead. And I feel like in the vampire parts of the movie, it’s really stylish, and it’s really well done. I feel like if you had taken out some of the silliness, the attempts to be goofy, which I think are really just the vestiges of that earlier draft of the script when it was gonna be a little more Goonies esque, if you strip that out of it, or toned it way the heck down, the movie wouldn’t be, I think, so jarring. It would still be dated, but it wouldn’t it would it would maintain a consistent sense of style throughout. It would be bouncing you back from one side to the other. And I think that works in some movies. Just for me, here and now, it didn’t work. But I think you have a Todd point there.  If I had seen this when I was a kid, when it came out, I probably would have the different perspective on it that you have. I absolutely would’ve.

Craig:  I think so. And I, you know, I I really think that they had a specific target audience in mind, and I think that that target audience was, you know, adolescent, teenage, 2 teenage boys. And, you know, at the time, I think it it had to have. You know, it had to have resonated with people our age. Otherwise, why would we still be talking about it? Why would we still be seeing imagery from it, all over the place? It clearly had some impact and, you know, it it launched, careers, for some of these young actors. So, I still appreciate it for what it what it is. There were a couple of sequels that came out in the 2000. The first sequel was intended to be kind of a a vehicle for a comeback for Corey Haim and Corey Feldman.  Eventually, when it when they got around to making the film, Corey Haim was was struggling so much with addiction and and his health that he wasn’t really able to participate. And so, Corey Feldman, was really, you know, it was more for him. Corey Haim doesn’t even really appear in the movie. There are some, bonus scenes or maybe there’s a post Craig scene, where Corey Corey Haim is a vampire and he and Corey Feldman kind of face off. You don’t really you only see the beginning of it. You don’t see what happens. And then, sadly, tragically, Corey Haim died. I believe he was, you know, I don’t even remember how old he was.  He was young, far too young to pass away, but he passed away before the second sequel came out. And, I saw both sequels. I don’t remember really anything about them. They were very not memorable. I think Kiefer Sutherland’s, younger brother played the lead vampire in one of them, but, definitely, you know, nothing that you would need to run out and see right away, which, you know, it’s it’s it’s too bad. You know, they’re trying to capitalize on on the name or whatever and it’s it didn’t work, but, we still got this one to go back to at least if we need a little cheesy eighties fun.

Todd:  We do, and you know what? I think I will go back to it for that reason alone. Sometimes you just want a little cheesy eighties fun. Yeah. You wanna hear some INXS playing in the background.

Craig:  Absolutely. Absolutely.

Todd:  Well, we’re still here. We’re still together. Even though we might be half a world apart, we are gonna continue coming to you. So please continue to, check us out on iTunes and on Stitcher. You can find our page on Facebook. Leave us a message and let us know what you think of this episode. Check out our previous episodes, and give us some ideas and thoughts for, movies we should see coming up. Until that time, I’m Todd.  And I’m Craig. With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week, we dip back into the Wes Craven collection for what is arguably the very best film in the series – the super-meta mindbender that is Wes Craven’s New Nightmare.

Wes Craven’s New Nightmare (1994)

Episode 37, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Hello, and welcome to another edition of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: I’m Craig.

Todd: Today’s, episode is, Wes Craven’s new nightmare. We kicked off this podcast watching The Nightmare on Elm Street. We thought we’d revisit Wes Craven and, check out what was the last film in The Nightmare on Elm Street series if you don’t count Freddy versus Jason. Which I don’t.  Do you? Do you consider that?

Craig:  Yeah. I mean, I do. You haven’t even seen it.

Todd:  I haven’t, so maybe I shouldn’t speak until I’ve seen it. It’s really not bad. I’m not saying it’s bad. I’m just wondering is it part of the canon? You know what I mean?

Craig:  I would say so. I mean, it’s still got Robert England. You know, you still got the real Freddy. I think if it were, not Robert Englund, I wouldn’t count it. But he does a good job. It’s not a great movie, but it’s fun. It’s it’s it’s a fun ride.

Todd:  Well, it’s one people been waiting for for a while since it had to happen at some point, like Alien versus Predator.

Craig:  Oh, right. Yeah. They had been wanting to make it since, like, part 3 of, Nightmare on Elm Street came out, but there was all kinds of problems with the studio and whatnot. And, actually, Paramount owned the rights to, the Friday the 13th properties.

Todd:  Mhmm.

Craig:  And New Line couldn’t get their hands on them, so they couldn’t do the crossover. Well, I guess, eventually, when, the, Friday 13th series stopped performing well. Paramount gave it up. And, it was also the same time that, Wes Craven kind of reconciled with New Line. I guess he kind of had some issues with them for a while.

Todd:  There was some falling out. Wasn’t it money? Was it money?

Craig:  I don’t remember what it was. I think that they wanted him to write and direct, Nightmare on Elm Street 3. And he agreed, but they couldn’t come to an agreement on the script.

Todd:  That’s right. The script that they submitted was darker and was just not quite what they wanted. And so they Robert Shade called in someone to do rewrites on that. Right?

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  Right. Was it was Frank Darabond involved? I don’t remember. Anyway yeah. And so they did rewrites on, and I guess they weren’t happy. I guess Robert Englund wasn’t happy. I mean, sorry. Wes Craven wasn’t happy, and there was a bit of a

Clip:  who knows?

Craig:  Kind of a falling out, which, you know, it’s it’s it’s unfortunate because I really I like Wes Craven’s take. You know, his original take was dark and and scary, and the sequels got into campy Yeah. Stuff, which was fine. I mean, it was still fun, but it wasn’t the same. And so the you know, at 1994, I guess, or right around that time, something happened, and and there was kind of a reconciliation between Bob Shea, the head guy at New Line, and, Wes Craven. And even though they had been planning on doing a Freddy versus Jason, Wes Craven had this other idea, and it it became, Wes Craven had this other idea, and it it became, New Nightmare. The the working title was Nightmare on Elm Street 7 Ascension. Woah.  But, yeah.

Todd:  This one’s kind of nice because in a way, the title sets it apart from the rest of it by not giving it a number and also by saying new Nightmare. Right. Wes Cravens, you know, giving it back to the creator a little bit, but also showing you this is gonna be a bit different from the other Freddy movies we’ve seen.

Craig:  Yeah. Quite a bit different. And I love it. I’m so glad it happened. You know? I I think it’s just kinda one of those clandestine things that just right place, right time. And I’m really glad. You know, I like the whole series. I can sit and watch any of those movies.  The first one’s great. The second one sucks pretty bad. The third one, I actually love. Dream Warriors is awesome. Dream Warriors is awesome. The 4th one’s not bad. 5th one, so so. The 6th one was awful, and that was the one that they were gonna end it on.

Todd:  Was that the child or was that the Freddy’s dead?

Craig:  Freddy’s dead. Now you

Todd:  know what I liked about Freddy’s dead though? And correct me if I’m wrong. Isn’t that the one Alice Cooper plays his father? Yeah. It is. And it kinda we really takes it back to his roots and which is always a little bit of a mistake in a lot of these films. There’s always the temptation. You get along far enough that you need to go back and revisit the villain’s roots, and somehow that takes a little bit of the teeth out of it. Right.

Craig:  Well, and they they kinda messed with the the time frame. Like, they introduced that that Freddy Krueger had had a daughter, and so now the daughter had to, like, defeat

Todd:  him or whatever.

Clip:  Oh, yeah.

Craig:  Kinda goofy and silly. And then, plus, they went 3 d at the end, and the effects were kinda cornball. Yeah. I mean, it it’s it’s still it’s it’s really cheesy. You know? In that last in part 6, you’ve got, Freddie dressed up as the Wicked Witch of the West flying around on a broomstick. Mhmm. You’ve got Roseanne Barr and Tom Arnold playing this That’s right. Kinda weird couple.  And I I just didn’t love it. And it was kinda sad because, you know, you always these franchises, they say, oh, it’s the last one, and you always kinda think, yeah. Right? We’ll see. But, they really were kinda playing it up that this is it. This is the they they called it the final nightmare or whatever.

Todd:  And and we all kind of expected I mean, by that point, you’re right. The movie was bad enough, and we’d had so much of Freddy, and he devolved really into this sort of campy, ridiculous person that we all expected that to actually be the last night. So when this came out, it’s like, oh, this is interesting. And then when the take on it became really a commentary on how the series had gone completely off the rails, Wow. It was it was really the first meta as as far as I remember. Me too. Yeah. 1 of the first meta horror at least one of the first meta horror films to really hit main stream and be a big hit.  Yeah. And people really kinda see it

Craig:  as being a precursor to Scream, which Wes Craven did, I don’t know, just a couple years later.

Clip:  Yeah.

Craig:  Yeah. And in both of those movies, it’s one of the issues that it’s tackling is what effect do these movies have on the real world. And that’s you know, it kinda tackles that here in a fantastic way, but really interesting. And and I remember, you know, this was 94 that this came out, so I would have been, like, a sophomore in high school. And it was before I I think we had the Internet, but it was, like, in the really early stages. And, like, I didn’t have it at home or whatever. And so I didn’t know that this was happening until, I think, I saw a preview for it. And I just remember just being giddy with excitement, because I loved these movies.  My dad would take me to see these movies in the theater when they would come out, and they came out really fast. You know? I think the original was in 84, and so New Nightmare kinda marked the 10th anniversary. Wow. Yeah. And in that time, in 10 years, they had 7 movies. I mean, that’s that’s kinda crazy.

Todd:  Yeah. That’s almost one movie a year, really. And or at least you’re always looking you you there’s always a new one in production, because it’s the series that made New Line.

Craig:  Right. Exactly. The House of Freddie Built. Yeah.

Todd:  It was a brand new, brand new, almost failing, actually. It doesn’t take long for a movie studio to start getting in the in the red, and, the original Nightmare on Elm Street really blew them out of the water. And I think this was always their crutch, at least for those 10 years. Well, we gotta keep a Freddy movie going, you know, in the same sense maybe that that the movie takes this theme. You know, you have to imagine that the feeling at New Line was, we will only survive if we keep telling these stories.

Clip:  Yeah. Right. Absolutely.

Craig:  And and, you know, I they were it made sense. You know? It talks about it in New Nightmare that, Freddie was it was huge. You know? He was everywhere. Heather Langenkamp in the film at some point says, you know, Freddie’s like Santa Claus, like King Kong. You know, all the kids know him. And, you know, those movies were huge money makers, but as they continued to decline in quality, I think they started to make less and less money, and they kinda just gave up on it. And then this came back around. And I think by that point, some people had lost a little bit of faith, and it didn’t do as well in the theaters as they expected.  But since then, you know, it’s really developed this big cult following, and a lot of people, myself included, cite this as maybe my favorite entry in the whole series. It’s close tie with number 1.

Todd:  This 1 and 1. I mean and you know what’s a little different about this one is I was thinking, I was watching it this time around. And really the original’s not that dated, but it kind of is. This one holds up today. This could have almost been made yesterday.

Craig:  Yeah. I think so too. And there are some effects and things, particularly in the final act, that are a little hokey. You can tell that they were restricted by their budget a little bit. Mhmm. But I forgive that because the idea is so clever and because it takes it in such a different direction. And it really tries, especially in that 3rd act, to really do something that it’s never done before and really make, you know, this kind of huge finale, as opposed to, you know, a scary guy chasing a girl around in the house. You know, it’s a lot bigger as far as production is concerned.  And I think it was a success. Yeah. You know, after the movie was over, I said to Todd, you know, it’s not a perfect movie, but I love it anyway. Oh, yeah. It’s got its flaws. There’s some kind of hokey moments, but overall it plays really well, and I really, really enjoy it.

Todd:  I have to say, and I haven’t seen this probably nearly as many times as you have, but I’ve seen it a fair number of times. In fact, I think I reviewed it a either last year or the year before on my October horror movie a month thing. And every time I see this, I appreciate it even more. And I think I just come to it at a different age and a different mindset that I see things hidden in the script. I see things in the story. I see themes that are underlying through. There are a lot of themes running through this that just reminds me, damn. Wes Craven is a fantastic writer.

Craig:  He really is and a great director. And, you know, I was watching this time around. This was made so close, you know, just a few years before Scream. And it’s so clear. It’s so evident that it’s the same director. I mean, the same kind of shots, same kind of character development. And and this one, I think what makes it so appealing is that is that, that the character they’re characters that you really care about. They feel like real people.  I mean, they’re they’re setting it in the quote real world. And so, you know, we we kind of look at these people in a different way than we would look Todd stock characters that we had seen in some of the previous ones.

Todd:  Yes.

Craig:  And, I think that, you know, that worked, and it worked well for me. And, you know, my sister’s been here and visited with us before. She’s not a big fan of horror movies. She loves this movie. Really? Yeah. This was one that I could get her to watch any time. I I think maybe there’s even some appeal there for people who aren’t necessarily hardcore horror fans.

Todd:  I think you’re right. And another thing Todd that this movie does to Craig over just a little bit maybe I should catch myself before I go go go too far down this rabbit hole now that I think back through the movie. But it’s not quite as gory. No. It’s not quite as gross out as the other ones are. One thing that struck me about this film as I was watching it for the first time ever is that more so than in the other movies, he seems to really rely on real life horrors in this one quite a bit. It’s not really toward the end that we get into the supernatural, Freddy Glove, people getting slashed and things, but we’re actually tackling some really spooky stuff that we have to deal with every single day. There’s the loss of your father.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Todd:  Or

Craig:  your spouse. Right?

Todd:  Or your spouse. There’s car accidents.

Craig:  There’s Earthquakes.

Todd:  Earthquakes is is a big one. Right? Going to the hospital and the scariness of a hospital, the scariness of a morgue and and having to to face that. Doctors. So much of this is grounded in what we already are kind of scared of and is really creepy. And so when it delves into the supernatural and it does so in these settings, it almost doubles the ante, I think. It kinda ups it a little bit.

Craig:  Yeah. And it’s you said, you know, less gory. I think that this probably has one of the lowest body counts of any of the Nightmare movies. And really, much like in the first movie, Freddy doesn’t really have a whole lot of screen time

Todd:  No.

Craig:  Especially not until the end. I mean, he pops up a couple of times for a really short period of time in the first two thirds of the movie. But it’s really not until the final act that he’s really a a I mean, he’s a key player throughout, because it’s the dread of of him and what he is or what he represents that is building this suspense. But, he doesn’t really show up in his full glory until almost, you know, the very last act.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s the threat of Freddy throughout the whole thing. Like, you’re right. It’s it it it is a complete bookend to the first movie Mhmm. With the first movie in that Freddie is such an iconic character. He’s such a big deal. Yet unlike in the Jason, you know, movies, the Friday 13th movies, he didn’t start out as this I’m in your face all the time. I am the main threat kind of character.  He was always lurking in the shadows and in the dreams. It was only as the as the films kind of progressed. And I think that was really what Wes Craven had issue with with his creation was it did turn into camp after a while, and it did turn, oh, here’s Freddie in every scene, and he’s almost a bit player along with the rest of them, in funny quotes and goofing off and playing around. For me, it didn’t make it didn’t make him any less likable. You know? I enjoyed the character. I still do. And I like that aspect of him, which you don’t get with, for example, you know, Jason who’s dead serious Right. Or or Michael Myers who’s even dead or serious.

Craig:  Right. And and they’re more just, you know, kind of a masked killer, which is is what Freddie was originally intended to be. I mean, initially, they were just gonna cast a stunt guy to play him. And I don’t even remember how it worked out, but, Robert England, you know, ended up in the role. And he really made it his own. And and Robert England’s a a great actor. He really is. You The kind of stuff that he does now is is kind of more low budget indie.  You don’t really see him in the mainstream so much anymore. But, you know, he really brought this character to life. And even that’s even when he was playing it shticky and even when he was playing it campy, it was still fun for me. But it was nice for me to see him be able to come back and do the scary again.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And it it worked. I mean, he’s scary in this movie.

Todd:  My question, did Robert Englund play Freddie in this movie? Yeah. Okay. He did. Yeah. Because he doesn’t look like himself. He’s clearly been bulked up a little bit, his face and everything. It’s they intentionally well, obviously, the makeup is intentionally different. Yep.  Because we’re trying to create a more real world Freddy. We’re trying to distinguish from the Freddy of the fiction into, well, here is the manifestation of the Freddy of the stories coming out. Right. It’s a little different. But also, yeah, his face is fuller and bigger. Robert Englund’s got kind of this narrow skinny face. And of course, he’s got the yellow eyes. Right.  And he’s dead serious. Mhmm. And he’s not really quipping, but also in the credits at the end, when it, you know, it lists everything. Heather Lang in Clickcamp, herself.

Craig:  Changes were intentional. He wanted it to be slightly different, and he wanted it to be darker and scarier, kind of more of what he had envisioned initially. Even, the new glove, which was a big deal for all his fanboys when this came out, that was really kind of more of what he had had in mind in the beginning.

Todd:  Because it wasn’t a glove in the beginning, wasn’t it? Wasn’t it a guy with either long fingernails or a guy with knives for hand for fingers or something?

Craig:  I think it was it was just like a leather glove with, like, knives, like, knife blades on hand in in in part 1 and in the subsequent movies.

Todd:  Well, but but, I mean, originally, before the movies, wasn’t it what when he originally wrote the script, wasn’t the glove an idea that came up before the first movie was shot? Between the script and the movie?

Craig:  Yeah. I don’t remember. I don’t know.

Todd:  I don’t know. Maybe I’m wrong, and and maybe I’m gonna have to go back and delete this. It’s not a podcast to cover for myself.

Craig:  You could very

Todd:  well be right. I thought that the glove was a, like, a special effects person’s idea. Let’s put him in a in a in a glove instead of giving him, like, knife knife fingers or whatever.

Craig:  Yeah. It could be. I’m not sure.

Todd:  Because this glove, was it even a glove?

Craig:  Not really. I mean, this one is more and that’s where the movie opens up. You don’t know. I mean, there’s no opening credits, so you don’t really know what’s going on. It kinda looks like the beginning of Nightmare 1, except for that it’s in, like, this this much darker, more gothic looking kind of boiler room. And it’s the same thing. It’s it’s Freddy making the glove. But this time, it’s more like an animatronic kind of thing with looks like it’s got bone and tendons and and partly mechanical.  And then the the guy, the special effects guy who’s doing the the acting, takes a big butcher butcher knife or whatever and chops his hand off and puts the animatronic one on. So it’s it’s almost like it’s an update of that original scene. And and, yeah, the the different look throughout. His makeup is different. They did bulk him up. And and Robert Englund’s not a very big guy. I mean, he’s he’s not incredibly tall, and he’s he’s really thin.

Todd:  He’s kind of a skinny lanky dude,

Craig:  really. Yeah. And, you know, they you can tell that they through costuming and through the way that they shot, like, they shot him from down low a lot, so it would appear that he was much bulkier and more looming than he’s ever appeared before. A little bit difference in the costumes. The Yeah. The the sweater is a little bit dingier.

Todd:  And it’s almost muted because he has a big coat on

Craig:  for me. Yeah. And like a green fedora.

Todd:  It’s like a it’s like a prim and proper fedora. Right. It’s not like the dirty banged up hat that he had to wear.

Craig:  Right. He’s got black leather pants, which is very nineties. But, Yeah. But, yeah, a new look. And, you know, that was what was so exciting when, the the preview came out. There’s a point, in the movie where Freddy pops out. It’s one of the few jump scares in the movie. He pops out, and said says miss me? And, I I remember seeing that part in the preview, and I was like, yes.  Yes. I missed you so bad. Thank you, Freddie. And look at you. You look like a badass, and

Clip:  I’m so glad you’re back.

Craig:  Oh, Todd. It was so exciting. I was so excited about this movie, and I wasn’t disappointed when I saw it. No.

Todd:  Well, did you see it in the theater?

Craig:  I think so. Oh, yeah. I I know I saw part 6, so I can’t imagine that I didn’t see this. I was so excited

Todd:  about it. I don’t know if I saw in the theater or not. Well, so you mentioned the beginning. They get this bio organic hand, and it is instantly clear that we’re not we’re watching the beginning of a movie being made. Right. And so suddenly it’s the director, more blood, more blood. So the guy’s back there pumping with the blood. Then we are introduced to the special effects person who is, Chase.  Uh-huh. Right? Yeah. And he is back there with the guys and they’re kinda working on the special effects and they’re working on that glove. Right?

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  And he makes this comment. He says something about how it’s oh, yeah. Well, pretty impressive glove. And I think his wife, Heather Heather Leningham playing herself is visiting the set.

Clip:  I don’t like that thing.

Craig:  That thing puts bread on our table.

Clip:  Is it alive, daddy? Heather.

Craig:  You’re in the next shot. Villain. State of the art animatronics enhanced with bio organic grafting, full tendons, nerve bundles from a live Doberman.

Todd:  That’s one of the sillier moments in this movie. I’m thinking special effects people don’t need to get that technical. Yeah. Right. All they really need is like string and stuff to pull, you know, something mechanical, maybe you know, or things like they’re like on the verge of these, they’re like working with new scientific breaks. Right. There’s some bio organics just to make this glove move on screen. This is kinda silly.  But it brings to mind that idea that a, this is a new glove, and, b, he, you know, he was gonna fuse it onto his hand, and, c, I really think that Wes Craven originally had him, written Freddie written as a guy with knives or fingers or long fingernails or something, and the glove was added later. So I feel like this was like a throwback. Gotcha. Like him coming back to it and kinda pulling that out and toying with it a little bit.

Craig:  And it’s it’s cool. You know? It’s it’s it’s not a huge change, but it’s it’s neat. It’s a fun change. And just the whole, you know, as soon as, Wes Craven himself yells cut, and you see him on the screen, and you see Heather Langenkamp there, and you can see that, you know, these original people are back together making a new movie. Feels good. It does feel Todd, and it blurs the lines between movie and reality. Mhmm. And and so much of what is in here is basically real.  I mean, Heather Langenkamp is playing herself, an actress who’s famous for this series of movies, but whose career is not maybe skyrocketing the way that she might like. She’s married to a special effects guy, who Heather Langenkamp is, married to a special effects guy. In in fact, they asked her husband to to play himself in the movie, but he turned it down. Really?

Clip:  Mhmm. Oh,

Todd:  I didn’t know that.

Craig:  Yeah. And then, you know, throughout the whole rest, we’re introduced to Bob Shea, the executive producer, and just everybody who is involved playing their selves, and it just feels I don’t know. It feels so cool. We hadn’t ever really seen anything like that before.

Todd:  We really hadn’t. There wasn’t much of it anyway, and certainly not in the horror realm. Right. And it’s interesting too because the Nightmare on Elm Street series, it plays between dreams and reality. Right. This the movie is almost a stand in for dreams. Right? It it plays between the the movie world and the real world, and and bounces between. So it’s it’s like this this inception layer.  Right? You have in the film, you have the movie you know you’re watching, you have the movie that they are making, and then you have the dreams that they’re having about the movie that they’re making. Right. And so now when you’re watching the film, you’re bouncing between all three of these, and it’s, it’s a little disorienting.

Craig:  Well, and the other cool thing that it does is it kinda wipes the slate clean, because it’s taking it out of the realm of the movie. So we don’t know if those movie rules still apply.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Craig:  And in some ways, they don’t. Like, you know, for example, in this in this movie, in New Nightmare, it appears that Freddy can kind of manifest even if people aren’t asleep

Todd:  Yes.

Craig:  At at some points and in some ways. And it also seems like beyond just, you know, the physical character of Freddy, there’s even more outside influence, like supernatural. Like, there’s all these, earthquakes that have been going on. Yeah. Everybody involved in the production and Heather doesn’t even know that she’s involved in the production yet. She doesn’t even know anything about it at the beginning of the movie. She just thinks she’s dreaming these things. Yeah.  But everybody involved is experiencing these weird things. They’re, having weird dreams. They’re getting weird phone calls. And it bends the rules, and so that makes it exciting because you don’t really know what to expect.

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. Because even that sequence that we see at the beginning where it’s the movie within the movie, she’s talking with him about the glove and then the glove comes to life and starts tearing people apart.

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  And you’re sort of accustomed to, okay, this is the actual movie. This is the actual story. Wow. We really jumped in with that fast. And then it turns out to be her dream. Right. But she wakes up out of it and not into just a safe, quiet bedroom, but in the middle of an earthquake. And that was a very interesting thread through this.  And my understanding is that that was also, sort of a bit of serendipity. Right? That the earthquakes weren’t originally part of the script or at least heavily a part of it.

Craig:  Were they? I the the earthquakes were in the script, and they they had filmed the earthquake scenes. And they were afraid that they had gone a little bit too over the top with the severity of the earthquakes. And then just a couple of weeks before production wrapped, those huge earthquakes hit Los Angeles. So they sent out, film crews to just film the aftermath of the actual real earthquake, and that’s what they ended up using. And once they saw the mass destruction that that caused, they thought, well, our scenes aren’t too over the top at all. It’s it’s very much real. And again, you know, kind of one of those weird coincidences

Todd:  in a movie shoot. More of the meta Yeah. You know, then you’re bringing some reality into this fiction. Yeah.

Craig:  It’s it’s it’s really weird. I’m sure it would have been weird for people you know, this came out in 1994 soon after those earthquakes happened. It had Todd, you know, what a coincidence. Yeah. Very strange. But, yeah. You know, so she wakes up, and it doesn’t deviate from the rules entirely. It’s not like it totally flips the script.  I feel like it it happens later in the you know, her husband, the chase, the effects guy, gets cut on the fingers by the glove in the, in the dream. And when they wake up, of course, their first concern is their kid. They run down to their kid. The earthquake quits. They’re making sure everybody’s okay. And the kid notices that his fingers are cut. And, of course, just like in all these movies, they find some way to rationalize it. You know, it must have been something The bro that fell or something.  Yeah. Heather says, but, you know, I dreamed it. And he says, well, you must have just been half awake. That’s how dreams work. You still weren’t fully awake, and you saw me get cut, and it kind of incorporated into the dream. But you can tell from the very beginning that she’s totally on edge. Her nerves are just shot. And it’s it’s at that point, you know, he tells her that he’s going off to do some Soap commercial.  Yeah. Or something.

Todd:  Which is another cute thing. Again, I think pretty pretty brilliant writing in that in her dream, you know, he’s doing all this fancy special effects stuff like a special like like the Hollywood special effects artist you imagine is doing all the time. Right. Yet in the reality of the of their world, nah, he’s going to do a soap commercial. Right? He’s got to go down there to make realistic soap bubbles. Yeah. And that’s like, yeah. That’s probably how a special effects artist spends most of their time.  Right. Across the way, sure. Bubbles and coke Craig like that.

Craig:  And so then I guess we get the the the premise of the story is that she’s been getting these weird phone calls. She’s got a stalker. Again, this isn’t this is pulled right from real life. Heather Langenkamp had a stalker in real life. Somebody is obsessed with her from these movies. And Wes Craven asked her, her, can I write that in? And she said, yeah. I can. She’s getting these weird phone calls.  It sounds like Freddie. She’s on edge. Her son, who is played by, Meiko Hughes, who we just saw a few weeks ago in Pet Sematary, he’s kind of acting strange, and she doesn’t know why. There’s, you know, more aftershocks the morning after. She gets one of those phone calls.

Todd:  It’s like a pound pound pound pound pound of weird, crazy things happening to her. Right. Almost to the point where you also are getting a little tired of it. Right? The cracks on the wall and the aftershocks look like fingers, and then Dylan’s acting weird and he’s watching the movie, and she goes downstairs, and then she shakes him, oh, and he starts screaming. And then the phone rings, and she answers the phone, and it’s the creepy caller. And she hangs up again, then it rings again. And you’re thinking, oh, she’s gonna pick it up and it’s like the delivery man. No.  It’s the creepy caller again, and she hangs up, and then Dylan says something creepy, and then the the doorbell rings. It’s like, when is this gonna end?

Craig:  I know. Yeah. It’s really tense. At the door, it’s just the babysitter, and she’s this pretty blonde girl. I recognize this actress from some things, but I don’t think she’s a big name. But, she comes in, and she’s trying to calm Heather down. Heather is going to, tape, like a talk show. They’re gonna be interviewing her, I guess, because it’s gonna be the 10th anniversary of Nightmare 1.  And she kinda doesn’t wanna go because she’s Nightmare 1. And she kinda doesn’t wanna go because she’s not feeling great, but she decides to go. And it’s there’s a funny part where, the limo driver who’s kind of this, I don’t know, creepy, skeezy guy, he’s looking at her in the rearview mirror, and he’s like, you

Clip:  played that girl in that movie with the guy with the yeah. Sure. It’s you. That’s what I love about this job. I get to meet the stars.  I’m hardly a star.  What? Are you kidding? I love your stuff.

Craig:  No. It’s it’s I I love all that meta stuff. You know, we hadn’t seen I think Heather Langenkamp has worked, you know, here and there.

Todd:  Things. Were we on stage or something?

Craig:  I don’t know. I mean, I she comes from a family of creative people. And and, you know, she’s she’s still working. And she’s right now, they’re filming a Hellraiser sequel, and she’s in it.

Todd:  Oh, really?

Craig:  But, you know, her her you know, like with any of these horror movies, the final girls or whatever, they’re usually not big name folks. They don’t usually go on to do a whole lot more, and she hadn’t. And so, again, there is some more meta stuff there where you’re seeing into the life of not necessarily washed up. You know, they have a nice house, and they get by fine. But, she’s not some big celebrity. Yeah. She’s just a working actress.

Todd:  Yet she’s willing to acknowledge it, and she’s willing to go along with it. And she’s willing to go on this talk show and talk about Freddie. You know? It’s not like she’s, don’t talk to me about Freddie Right. Anymore. I don’t wanna I don’t wanna deal with it, which, again, seems a little more true to life

Clip:  Right.

Todd:  Probably how that really is.

Craig:  And she goes, and she shoots this talk show. And, they the host is kind of obnoxious in asking her about her kid and asks her to say her kid’s name, which would seem like totally faux pas thing to do. Yeah.

Todd:  And she even kinda looks at the camera, and she’s I mean, there’s an interesting moment there just and it and it adds to this weird subtext of her family being in peril Uh-huh. Where she knows she has a stalker. And so is she gonna say the kid’s name on it there, but she’s on the spot?

Craig:  And so she does, reluctantly. And and the guy says, well, would you ever let your kid watch these movies? And she says, oh, no. No. I would never let my kid watch these movies. And he says, well, what about your costar? Would you trust Dylan with your costar? And she’s like, Robert? I don’t know. He says we got a surprise for you, and out comes Robert Englund and his full Freddie make. And, he comes out and the crowd goes wild and the crowds full of all these kids, and, you know, he’s, you know, waving his arms in the air, and the the light is, like, silhouetting his claw and everything. And, this too was based on a real thing.  Robert Shea, I think, or Wes Craven, one or the other, was invited to speak at this forum about violence in films and and whatnot. And it was, you know, concerned parents and their kids who were in the audience. And when Robert Englund came out, all the kids freaked out and were so excited and were screaming, Freddie, Freddie. And I guess all the parents and the host of the event were, like, mortified. This was exactly what they didn’t wanna happen. You know, they wanted to show that these things were bad for kids, and here the kids are just absolutely loving it. Oh my gosh.

Todd:  Well, that that scene is really cool, and it’s very well placed in the film, and it really points to what Wes Craven is trying to say. And, you know, Freddy comes out like you said, and the kids addresses him, and he was like, hey, everybody. Kinda runs up and he’s like high fiving kids in the wall. It’s where the character has become a commodity

Clip:  Mhmm.

Todd:  And where it is no longer true to the story. It is, oh, honestly, it’s a little bit of what worries me about Disney having the Star Wars franchise is that now we’re gonna see Darth Vader riding the rides at Disney World. And it just dilutes the character to an extent by making all these public appearances and taking them out of the story into this thing where he’s signing autographs and talking to people instead of murdering them.

Craig:  And that becomes a significant plot point. You know, the watering down of the character becomes a significant plot point later. But, Heather gets a call from one of the execs at New Line while she’s still on the lot, and they say, Robert Shea wants to talk to you. He’s really excited. Can you come in? And she’s like, okay. When? And they’re like, right now. So she heads right over there, and, she meets with, Robert Shea, and he tells her

Clip:  How would you like to join us in the definitive nightmare?  I thought you killed Freddie off.  Well, we did. But the fans, you know, the fans, Todd bless them, they’re clamoring for more. I guess evil never dies, right? Anyhow, a few weeks ago I got a call from Wes and he pitched me this really exciting idea, and I started thinking, who better to resurrect Freddy than his creator?  Well, I thought Wes stopped doing horror movies.  Do you know Todd me he hadn’t called me in the last 10 years because he hadn’t had any really scary nightmares? There is his inspiration for this thing. Anyhow, he’s he’s right in the middle of the script.  Which means he’s having nightmares again.  Well, he’s he’s very excited about it.  The nightmares?  No, sweetie, the script. And you should be too because you’re the star.  I don’t know, Bob. I’m flattered, really. But I have a kid now and  Well, so?  So I’m I’m not sure about doing horror.

Craig:  Oh, come on, Heather. Kids love horror.

Todd:  Yeah. That’s a great line, actually, that he says, and she kind of brings it up later too when when she says every kid knows who Freddy is. He’s like Santa Claus. Right? But everybody’s saying that throughout the movie. You know, the host is saying it. We’re getting the physical manifestation of what the kids in the audience and whatnot. And the fact that even though, you know, that Bob Shea doesn’t seem concerned, he’s excited about it. I really like this this particular scene because you can tell and this is just something I pay attention to because I’m interested in it, but you can tell when a sort of a non actor is in the movie because they don’t show their face a whole heck of a lot.  Right? Because they’re slipping in the best line delivery and they’re getting the most of this is on Heather and on her reaction. You get to see Bob Shae just a little bit, but most of his lines are spoken while the while the camera’s actually pointed at Heather. Because, you know, he’s not the best actor in the world. No. But he likes playing himself.

Craig:  He likes popping up in these movies. He does. He cameos in, Freddy versus Jason 2.

Todd:  Oh, is that right?

Craig:  Yeah. And there’s lots of other good cameos in this movie too. Lin Shay cameo. She plays a school teacher in the the first movie. She plays a nurse in this. Well, we’ll talk about more of them as we get there. Yeah. Yeah.  So she’s kinda reluctant about it, and says, how long has he been how long has Wes been working on this? And he says, I don’t know. A few months. And she says, well, in that time, those weird things been happening. And and, Shay is like, what do you mean weird? And she’s like, well, I don’t know. Weird phone calls or anything. And Robert Shay kinda gets this look on his face, and immediately the phone starts ringing. And he looks over at it. And you can tell that he’s nervous or something.  And she says, aren’t you gonna get the phone? He’s like, no. That’s all we have people around here to do. Somebody get the damn phone. But it it seems apparent that weird things are going on. But he but, of course, Bob Shea, the head of New Line, is thrilled about this and and really wants it to go. So I don’t even remember. Does she say she’ll do it? I no.

Todd:  She kind of says she doesn’t wanna do it, but then he reveals that her husband has been working on the new glove. Right. And so she freaks out about that a little bit. And there’s another episode, I think, with her son. Right?

Craig:  Yeah. As soon as she gets home, she can hear the sun screaming inside. And,

Todd:  That’s the whole deal with the doll. Right? Is that where Yeah. Yeah. Where the the dinosaur comes in at that point?

Craig:  Right. Julie, the babysitter, is trying to calm him down. He’s, like, thrashing and screaming. And so Heather takes Julie’s place and is trying to calm him down. And I think he starts he says, never sleep again, or he starts saying the 12 Freddy’s coming for you or something. And she asked the babysitter, did you let him watch that movie? And she’s like, no. I didn’t let him watch anything. He was taking a nap.  He started freaking out. And he says something, I think at this point, maybe not until a few minutes later. I don’t remember. But he says, you know, I I’m the man with the the ugly old man with the knives is trying to get me, but Rex saved me. He’s got this, stuffed tyrannosaurus Rex, and, the Heather pulls it out from under the blankets, and, of course, it’s got the slashes, the slash marks in it. And And so she knows something weird is going on. So she calls, her husband and says you need to get home.

Todd:  And and why didn’t you tell me you were working at our club

Craig:  and all? Right. And he says, no. I can’t leave because the other 2 special effects guys never showed up today. Those were the 2 guys that

Todd:  got killed in her dream. Ah, that’s right.

Craig:  And they never showed up. But

Todd:  she says, it’s Dylan. You’ve gotta come. And so he he goes. But, unfortunately, he’s driving, and it’s late late at night and he’s falling asleep at the wheel. Again, another one of those real life horrors. You know, it’s one thing to just fall asleep and have Freddy come at you, behind the wheels when you can fall asleep and die in real life.

Craig:  And this was the first time that I ever really realized that even if Freddy hadn’t intervened, he probably would have

Todd:  died anyway. Yeah. Exactly.

Craig:  I mean, he was falling asleep at the wheel, which is more I’ve done it. It’s that’s mortifying when you kinda jerk awake from falling asleep at the wheel.

Todd:  Well, once when I was 16 and I fell asleep at the wheel, luckily, I was just outside that my neighborhood. But when I woke up, I woke up because I was half in the ditch. You know, when I was riding the ditch, I was I was almost vertical there, you know, sideways. And, and that scares the daylight Todd me. Gosh. Yeah. That weighs you up real fast. Real

Clip:  fast. Yeah.

Todd:  But here’s another one moment where Robert Englund I mean, Wes Craven really likes to throw in. He gets he gets a little sexual. He plays with your fears, and he plays toys with that a little bit. Where you’ve got Freddy’s gloves coming up between his legs, and at the end of his, his, knife taps his crotch just a little bit before he jerks away. And you’re like, oh, jeez. As a man, you never wanted

Clip:  to be sharp. That’s right. Absolutely.

Craig:  But

Todd:  it that’s also very reminiscent of the scene with Nancy in the bathtub from the first movie. Yeah. Comes up between her legs and takes her under. Yep. A lot of Todd, actually, to the original. None of the others, but the original for sure.

Craig:  Yeah. And, England, when he decided to do this, he sat down and watched all of them in sequence. And when it was over, he said that he just couldn’t even follow the story line anymore. He had no idea. And that’s kinda why he wanted to kinda start fresh and do something new. Right. And and

Todd:  it worked. Craven. Right? You meant Wes?

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah.

Todd:  Sorry. I’m I’m doing the I’m I’m

Clip:  screwing you up, man. I’m sorry.

Craig:  Right. So, anyway, eventually, Chase does fall asleep. The glove comes all the way out and and slices clear through his abdomen, and and he crashes. The police arrive at Heather’s house and tell her, what’s happened, and and she wants to see the body. Yep.

Todd:  She wants that proof that it’s more than just a car crash.

Craig:  Yeah. And she goes, and it’s so funny. Horror movie the people who make horror movies must have a terrible fear of hospital. Yes. Because every hospital in every horror movie is just this nightmarish place. She goes into what I assume is the basement of the hospital where the morgue is, and there are corpses just laying around in the hallway.

Todd:  And there’s, like, screaming or something. Yeah. Somewhere, like, somebody’s moaning or whatever. And it’s, like, shouldn’t that be a unit or 2 up? Right. Right. Insane. But then she meets the the world’s most unprofessional mortician

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  Who, seems, very surprised that she’s there, even though they’ve clearly been told she’s coming. And then when he takes her back to the view of the body, he’s not businesslike about it at all. He’s he’s like, kinda like, are are you sure you wanna see this? Right. I’m I’m not sure. I wanna show it to you. Okay. I will. And and I’m very surprised at every emotional reaction that you’re having to this.  I don’t know if he was an intern that Todd.

Craig:  Yeah. I don’t know.

Todd:  It was a little silly, but, yeah. So she wants to see the whole Todd, and when she sees the whole body, she sees the slash marks

Clip:  on his chest.

Craig:  And she throws up and and leaves. And she, you know, know, it’s obvious that she knows something’s going on at this point. And then I think I don’t remember if it’s the exact next scene, but it comes right up. We we cut to Chase’s funeral.

Todd:  That’s right.

Craig:  And this is another one of those cool parts where several of the actors from previous entries are are there. Tuesday night from part 4 is there. The guy who played Tina’s boyfriend in part 1 is there. Of course, Robert Englund, Wes Craven, are there.

Todd:  John Saxon is there behind her. That’s when you first kinda see him. Right. Who who

Craig:  played her father in the original movie. Funnily enough, I guess, when they were shooting this scene or when they planned this scene, Wes Craven wanted to ask Johnny Depp if he would do a cameo at the funeral.

Todd:  Oh, yeah.

Craig:  But he he couldn’t work up the courage to ask him. Because at this point, Johnny Depp was a huge megastar. Oh. So he he he never got up the courage. And then they ran into each other at some event, some Hollywood event, and, Craven talked to him about it. And Johnny Depp said, you should have asked me, dude. I would have totally done it.

Clip:  Oh, man. What a shame. Right? Right.

Todd:  But then again, if you would put Johnny Depp in this movie, you would have had to written

Craig:  right in

Todd:  the script for him.

Clip:  You know what I’m saying? We would have

Todd:  gone down a whole different scenario, I think, if he had if he had talked you’re willing to do this? You’re willing to do a little more? You’re right.

Craig:  I’m sure you’re right. At at the funeral, the wind picks up, and there’s another earthquake. Heather and her son are are sitting Dylan are sitting in the front row with the babysitter. The earthquake is bad enough that it causes the supports on the coffin to break, and the coffin falls into the grave at an angle.

Todd:  Cat opens up a little bit Mhmm. And she falls forward.

Craig:  Right. I don’t even remember why she lunged forward. She I don’t know if it was just a fall or something.

Todd:  I got the sense it was a combination of her standing up right when the earthquake was shaking, and she fell yeah. She fell as a result.

Craig:  And she falls and hits her head on this one of the supports, for the coffin. And when she and right away, as soon as she hits her head, the earthquake stops, the wind stops, she looks around, and Dylan is gone. And she asked Julie, where is he? And she says, I don’t know. And then she hears Freddie’s laugh, and she looks down into the coffin, and Freddie is pulling, Dylan down through, like, an opening in the bottom, of the coffin. And Dylan’s screaming, and so she dives in the grave and, like, dives down in there, and it’s almost like a tunnel leading down. And she gets ahold of Dylan and pulls him out, but then her husband’s body starts sinking down towards them at the bottom. And

Todd:  he comes to life there for a moment and says to join join me.

Craig:  Yeah. Or stay with me or something. And he’s, like, crying blood tears, and there’s blood coming out of his mouth. And, she screams, and then she wakes up again where she was outside of the coffin.

Todd:  Yeah. And this is good because as you I think I feel like at this point in the movie, we’re still getting very much, their excuses for them to fall asleep, and that’s when the crazy supernatural stuff is happening.

Clip:  Right.

Todd:  Yeah. Which isn’t fitting with the the way that it was envisioned.

Craig:  Right. Robert England says something to her at the at the gravesite, like, if you need anything. And, again, it’s it’s just it’s so strange. Yeah. You know? She’s just encountered this nightmare of her own. And then to be face to face with the guy who personified it Yeah.

Todd:  In the movies. She’s very unsettled by it.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. And it it’s just it’s very clever.

Clip:  It’s

Todd:  very clever. And and then John Sachs also kind of comes down and sits down and and is being very fatherly towards her. Right? She doesn’t I guess, does she have parents? Is she supposed to

Craig:  We never hear anything about her.

Todd:  You don’t. Yeah. But he plays his fatherly role almost from the beginning, in being her older counselor. So

Craig:  Yeah. And that leads right into what I think is the next scene. There’s a scene at this park where she and John Saxon are sitting on a bench, and she’s telling him what’s going on, that she’s got this stalker, that she’s having these weird dreams. She, you know, she says, you know, I have a history of mental illness in my family. I don’t know what’s going on. She said my biggest fear is that, if I do have something, that I pass it down to Dylan because he’s been acting strangely too. And John Saxon says, well, he just lost his dad. You know? It’s it’s normal that he would be acting strangely.  And all this time, Dylan’s playing in the background by himself. There’s lots of people around. He’s playing by himself, and there’s this big, like I don’t even know how to describe it.

Todd:  The coolest thing ever. I actually had one of these. Did you? Oh my gosh. It was the it was our favorite place to go when I was a kid. It was a playground, and it’s this giant rocket ship built out of poles, but it has multiple levels in there. So you can climb up to the 1st level, you can climb to the 2nd level, and you feel like you’re outside because you’re essentially in a cage, but you’re generally pretty safe. And there’s even a spot at the very top in the cone where you can go up, except this is the world’s most unsafe of these rocket ships, Because there’s a window up there with with a great audit that you could also apparently open. Right.  Like like you would imagine that that

Craig:  should probably be locked. But it makes for a cool scene, because Dylan climbs up there all the way on the top. And this thing is big. I don’t know. What would you say? Like 20 feet or

Clip:  more?

Todd:  Oh, gosh. It’s way up there. It’s huge. I think as a kid, you know what? Looking back, maybe this thing wasn’t any more than 15 feet tall, but it felt like 30.

Craig:  Oh, right. Sure. And the way they shot shot it, you know, they’re shooting it from below, so it looks like it’s huge and enormous. And, of course, Heather and John see him when he’s up there, and she goes running, and he falls, and she catches him just in the nick of time. And, he says, God wouldn’t take me. He had had a conversation with her about where’s daddy, and she said heaven and, all that stuff. So he I guess, he was trying to reach to heaven, but she she caught him. That’s a cool scene.  A scary scene.

Todd:  Yeah. And another one of those moments where Freddy has nothing

Clip:  to do with him. And real life work.

Todd:  Right? Right? And and that’s really plays throughout here. I I think it’s impressive that a male writer would write so much to what is I mean, it’s not necessarily just female, but sort of your mother’s worst fears are a thread throughout this film, the child in peril. And of course, fathers are just we talked with your dad about the horrors of your children being in peril. But I don’t know. For some reason, we tend to associate it even more so with a mom, and in this case, now a single mom.

Craig:  Right. And that’s the other thing. She’s Interestingly enough, in in some earlier drafts of the script, the the father didn’t die. They ended up killing him off just because they didn’t have enough body they didn’t have a big enough body cam. Oh, really? Mhmm. So they killed him off, pretty early.

Todd:  Because that’s a pretty that’s a big gut, man. Yeah.

Craig:  Yeah. It is. Yeah? It’s just random trivia about that rocket ship scene. Meiko Hughes got to take that home. No way. Yeah. And it’s it was in his backyard for for years.

Todd:  Oh, man. I would have loved to have had one

Clip:  of those in my backyard.

Todd:  We used to we used to ride our bikes out to it. It was the video game place or the rocketship. It was one of those 2 places when we lived in Texas. Oh, nice. I would love to see those back. I’m sure there are probably all kinds of things wrong with them.

Craig:  Oh, I’m sure. Yeah.

Todd:  It’s too much metal on the playground where everything’s plastic and rubber now. But going off of what you were saying, it is a bit of a gut punch. You know, you said it earlier about how we care more about the characters in this movie. Mhmm. You know, usually the first person that’s offed in a horror film is, whatever.

Craig:  Almost somebody that you were wanting to die. Yeah.

Todd:  Or if you couldn’t predict it early on, you know? But in this case, it really kinda hurts that this this guy who we kinda liked and who was being supportive to her and is a member of the family gets offed. It really raises the stakes pretty early on

Clip:  Yeah.

Todd:  Absolutely. I feel. Well, then she goes home and they she has another dream. And it’s interesting the way this scene plays out because as it’s showing her in her bed, sometimes you’re not sure if they’re in the dream world or if you’re seeing them go into the dream world, but they’re these sounds. It almost sounds like a boat. This was just a real subtle thing that’s not overplayed, but the picture seems to be gently rocking. And you see the lampshades moving a little bit and the picture is moving very slightly on the wall, and you’re hearing those creaking sounds kind of like the creaking of wood on a ship, and it kinda drifts in closer to her as this is happening. And I don’t know if that’s supposed Todd, like, symbolize, you know, drifting off into dream world or or if we’re supposed to equate it with maybe another earthquake’s coming.  But in some sense, anyway, she falls out of bed and because she hears, more screaming down she hears more downstairs and she goes downstairs and Dylan’s watching the screen again. Mhmm. He’s watching a scene from the movie, but the it’s unplugged. Right. And, And I feel

Craig:  like she didn’t even notice No. She did. The first time she had caught him watching it, she yanked the cord out. And then Oh, that’s cool. There are at least 2 other times where the TV comes on, and totally you can see the cord hanging on the front. Yeah. I don’t think she even noticed. I mean and, you know, she’s concerned about her kids, so it’s not like she’s looking Todd details.

Todd:  But And this is the point. It’s almost a bit of a throwback to part 2, honestly, where, Dylan has tied some knives or taped some knives to his fingers and he’s almost possessed by Freddie or seems to be. And he comes towards her and raises his knifes, his knifes hands and tries to There’s a bit of a struggle, maybe a little too much struggle between her and her 4 year old son, unless we’re to think kind of like Pet Sematary where he’s got some supernatural strength. But in any case, again, another one of those very uncomfortable elements that that Wes Craven loves to throw in these movies is the phone rings again after they were kind of calmed down and she picks up the phone and it’s a throwback to the first movie with the tongue that sticks out. And he goes, I touched him. Uh-huh. It’s so creepy. Oh my gosh.  Right? Mhmm. Like, there’s every bit of icky about

Clip:  it.

Craig:  Yes. Yeah.

Todd:  And even as if that’s not far enough, she throws the phone down and she goes and consoles Dylan and you see another shot of the phone and there’s just like white saliva looking out of it.

Craig:  You know? It’s frothing out.

Todd:  It’s so sexually suggestive. Yeah. And and again, it also harkens back to Freddie being that child molester.

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  That’s what I mean. There’s just so many layers of unease that he he puts in here that are way more sophisticated than you than you tend to see.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  You know? Definitely. I touched him.

Craig:  Yeah. You know? And there’s really you know, there as as spooky as that is, just knowing that he’s that close is scary, but to say about a little boy Todd say I touched him, you know, that that’s that’s spooky. It’s and it freaks her out. And then and Dylan’s freaking out too and and maybe even throwing up or something.

Todd:  Yeah. He was having, like, a seizure type thing on the stuff.

Craig:  So this is the point where she ends up taking him to

Todd:  the hospital. That’s correct. And, of course, when they get to the hospital, the nurse is asking all kinds of questions. Because she did wake up with knife with, you know, 4 4 knives across her or is that in the That’s

Craig:  it’s it’s it’s later. Okay. At at some point, I think it was even before she took Dylan to the hospital, she called Robert England and asked him if anything was going on weird in his life. He’s like, what do you mean? She’s like, well, are you having bad dreams or whatever? And all this time, we’re seeing him kind of from behind in easel, and he’s painting. He’s clearly like a painter now.

Todd:  Yeah. He’s made so much money, all he could all he has to do at home in his big hands.

Craig:  Think that Robert England really does paint. Todd he? I wonder. Does. But, he’s he’s clearly really intense on what he’s doing. And, she says, you know, I’ve been dreaming about Freddie, but he’s different. And he says, do you mean, like, darker and more evil? It’s like, yeah. How’d you know that? He says, call it a guess. And she says, I wanna talk to you.  Can I come over? And he says, I’m I’m busy, right now.

Todd:  I have something I need to finish.

Craig:  Right. It’ll have to wait. And he’s just he’s dismissive. You know, he’s clearly distracted, and, eventually, he just hangs up. And then we spin around and see what’s on the canvas, and it’s this new scare I mean, it’s not like a photograph It’s stylized. It’s stylized, but it’s the new scary Freddy. So, obviously, he’s been having these dreams too. And I’m kinda glad it ended up getting cut, but there was supposed to be a scene where Robert England had a Freddie nightmare.

Clip:  Oh,

Craig:  wow. And in the nightmare I think that concept could have actually been really cool. Yeah. But the what they had scripted was that he, Robert England, was gonna be, like, in giant spider web, and then it was gonna be a giant evil spider Freddy, that was coming to get him, which seems kinda hokey. And they they they decided it didn’t really fit with the tone of the rest of the movie tonight, so they got rid of it.

Todd:  Well, it’s a little more sinister in that Robert Engle then sort of disappears. Mhmm. That’s true. It’s like the more Freddie comes into the real world or becomes more a part of the picture, Robert England as a character is gone Mhmm. And mysteriously gone. Not that there’s ever any implication that Robert England has gone crazy and is killing people. It’s just this and it and it works. It really almost needs to be that way.  You can’t have Freddie and Robert Englund sharing a scene together.

Craig:  Probably not.

Clip:  You know?

Todd:  You just it doesn’t work. Right. But, yeah, but he’s gone after that. And I think even she tries calling him later, doesn’t she? And the message yeah.

Craig:  It says we’re out of town. You can leave a message if you want to, but we’re gonna be gone for a long time.

Todd:  Like, what is that all about? Right?

Craig:  I think the implication is that he’s kind of running from it. And, again, there was another thing in the original script where, Robert Shea was doing the same thing, that he was kind of on the run. He was having somebody drive him around in this van to try

Clip:  to get away from Freddy,

Craig:  but they, they cut that too.

Todd:  Well, it’s almost implied. You know? You don’t need to. You can imagine that Right. Everybody is going through this once you’ve established that everyone’s going through it.

Craig:  Well, and I think it’s almost better to keep the focus on Heather. Yes. I think it would get a little bit too diffuse if you started messing with other people’s stories. I and I like the focus on her and her family. Yes. It keeps it really centered. She takes them to the hospital. And, like you said, the the doctors and nurses are asking all kinds of questions that you know, because they’ve heard him say stuff about a scary man.  And the doctor says, you surely didn’t let him watch your movies, did you? I don’t know who the actress is who plays this this doctor. But she’s she’s tall, and she’s, you know, she’s definitely this big presence. And she is really condescending

Todd:  Yes.

Craig:  To Heather and accusatory to an extent that really seems unprofessional and and not realistic. Yeah. But this character is based on the president of the MPAA with who was, like, the bane of Wes Craven’s existence. I mean, they butted heads at every turn. This guy, the president of the MPAA, who does who do the, the ratings would always make him make serious cuts, to his movies. And he just he hated the guy. So he, the the doctor’s last name is that guy’s last

Clip:  name.

Todd:  No way. Mhmm. Oh, that’s very interesting.

Craig:  And and explains why she’s such an unlikable character. And she talks so much about the effect of these movies on children and whatnot.

Todd:  She does. Although you do get this at least at the beginning, you get this idea she’s also wondering if there isn’t some abuse going on as well. Right? Mhmm. I mean, Heather’s coming in with cuts on her arm, you know, the scary man thing. But then there’s also that subtext that we’ve heard earlier that Heather’s afraid that whatever psychosis may be in her family has been passed down to her son. Mhmm. And then we hear the whole sleep deprivation thing. Right.  And we realize that her son has actually been trying to stay awake, all this time. He even hides the sleeping pill after they leave and when they give it to him. Wow. It’s really kind of complex. It is. What’s going on in this family and how everyone’s dealing with this and it’s played in a very subtle way. When I say subtle it’s not like you’ve been sleeping. Oh, I’m not gonna sleep.  You know? There’s there’s none of that. Right. You just see her sipping coffee

Craig:  every now and then.

Todd:  You can tell she’s trying to stay awake. She’s not telling anybody she is.

Craig:  Right. But we know. I mean, they don’t need to go out of their way Todd set that up. We know what’s going on. We know why they’re doing that. That’s consistent with the rest of the movies. And it makes sense that they would do that if they’re having these terrible nightmares. Yeah.

Todd:  And it and then what the kid is doing, which is this sleepwalking, makes sense because she starts reading about sleep deprivation and right in there, can lead to these sort of psychoses that manifest itself in the sleepwalking and an odd erratic behavior. It’s exactly so you’re getting almost a very natural explanation as a that that counteracts the super you know, there’s always it’s always nice to throw a little doubt in there. Right. Right? Right. Could this be a natural explanation, instead of the supernatural what’s happening with her son?

Craig:  Well, but around this time, it’s when Dylan’s in the hospital. Because she can’t get a hold of Robert England, Heather goes and visits Wes Craven and talks I love this scene so much.

Todd:  So good.

Craig:  Wes Craven is so subtle. You know? Like, he’s he’s not an actor, but he just plays it naturally. I mean, I guess he’s playing himself, and he knows how movies work. So he knows about angles and all that. But it’s just you know, he’s so not laid back isn’t the word, but he’s just so underplayed. And he explains to her what’s been going on, that he had these it had been a long time, but he had a new nightmare, and he started writing it down. And he just has, you know, a scene will come to him in the night. In his nightmare, he’ll write it down the next day.  He doesn’t have any control over it. Then he tells her kind of this lore, about this ancient evil. And he says, you know, that’s that’s what I’m dreaming about. That’s what is behind this. And she asked him to explain it, and he does. And it’s it’s such a cool concept.

Clip:  It’s existed in different forms at different times.

Craig:  About the

Clip:  only thing about it that stays the same is what it lives for, really.  What is that?  Oh, the murder of innocence.  This is still a script we’re talking about. Right, Wes?  Yeah. Well, I just have to think of it as a nightmare in progress.  Well, in this nightmare in progress then, does this thing have any weaknesses?  Oh, well, it can be captured sometimes.  Captured? How?  By storytellers of all things. Every so often, they imagine a story good enough to sort of catch its essence, and then for a while, it’s held prisoner in the story.  Like the genie in the bottle?  Exactly. Exactly. But the problem comes when the story dies, and that can happen in a lot of ways. It can get too familiar to people, or somebody waters it down to make it an easier sell. You know? Or maybe it’s just so upsetting to society that it’s banned outright. However it happens, when the story dies, the evil is set free.  Great.

Todd:  It’s like bam bam bam. It’s like the stuff that probably pissed Wes Craven off about his character, and then his character got watered down. And it’s also the very real fact that they stopped making the movies about him. Eventually, he’s gonna go away, which would potentially release as evil.

Craig:  Right. And it’s it’s such a clever concept. Is smart. And and she says, well, now that the movie’s over, what’s he doing now? And he says, well, he’s gotten used to being Freddy, and he likes being Freddy. And so he wants to stick with that, and he wants to Craig over into our world, the real world. And she says, like, well, can he? And he says, well, he can, but he’s got a there’s a gate keeper. There’s somebody he’s gotta get past. And he says, and it’s you.  It’s you, Heather. And she said, what are you talking about? Why me? He said, because you were the first one to defeat him. You were the first one to take away his power to humiliate him, and so he’s gotta get through you in order to get back into the world. And, again, it’s such a burden for her. You know? She doesn’t she doesn’t want any of this. Yeah.

Todd:  Well and, again, it is a burden like her previous role was a burden. Right? It’s like, I’m kinda done with Freddie, but it’s haunting me through the rest of my life.

Craig:  Well, and thank goodness, you know, Heather Leningkamp was willing to come back and do it, because it really kind of hinges on her.

Todd:  It does.

Craig:  If they hadn’t been able to get her, I don’t think that the story would have been nearly as effective if they had tried to use somebody else, from one of the other films or something. No. But and and, again, you know, we when we talked about Nightmare 1, it’s not like I think Heather Langenkamp is some sort of Academy Award, you know, worthy actress. But she’s likable, and you feel for her. And you see in her face when she’s told this, like, why me? Yeah. Right. Just leave me alone.

Todd:  She’s so girl next door. You know? She doesn’t look up to the task at all. She just wants to be left alone. She wants to be normal.

Craig:  After he tells her all this, she gets angry because she says, well, you knew it was the implication that he knew that her husband would die. And he says, I swear I didn’t know. It was just a dream. It’s just a script. I had no idea. And he walks over to his writing area, to his computer, and she says, well, what happens now? And he goes, well, I guess it all depends on whether or not you’re willing to play Nancy one more time. And it scrolls down to the screen where the conversation they’ve been having is scripted out. And at the bottom after that line, it says fade to black, and it fades to black.  That’s so clever. So clever.

Todd:  Yeah. I man, that is that I just I love this movie. I really do.

Craig:  At this point, she knows what’s going on, so we’re really getting getting into final act. Yeah. She runs back to the hospital where she’s being questioned by the doctors, you know, they even call security. You know, now Freddie has appeared to her once in her bedroom, and they kinda had a scuffle. And she’s got these cuts now, and the doctor wants to know where those came from. And, basically, the doctor thinks she’s nuts.

Clip:  The man from your films, Freddy Krueger with a claws, Is that who he’s afraid of? You have let your child see your films, haven’t you?  Every kid knows who Freddy is. He’s like Santa Claus.

Todd:  And it’s true. I mean,

Craig:  it was so true at the time. You know, little 5 year old kids were walking around in Freddy Krueger Craig on Halloween and Yeah. It’s hugely popular.

Todd:  I didn’t see the movie and I loved the guy. Right. I got a I bought a poster from a friend of mine and I paid, like, some money for it and he gave you know, it was like the first thing I ever bought off the first And and I had that poster at the foot of my bed plastered up on the wall. I had never seen the movies. I just you know?

Craig:  He’s he’s an icon. TV. Yeah. He’s as big an questions about her mental state and whatnot. And the babysitter has arrived at the hospital, and she’s with Dylan. And Heather has told her, don’t let them go. Don’t let him go to sleep. So she’s trying to keep Dylan awake.  These two nurses come in. The evil nurses. These evil nurses come in, and they trick, the the babysitter and Dylan. 1 of them distracts the babysitter, and the other one covertly gives Dylan an injection.

Todd:  It’s like they knew this was gonna be a problem, and so they worked out this scheme. Right. What’s so hilarious about it is the one who gives them the injection, it’s like just jabs it

Clip:  in his arm.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s such a Hollywood.

Craig:  And then she gives Julie a look like, I gotcha.

Clip:  This is

Todd:  one this is one of the sillier moments in the movie, but

Craig:  It is kind of silly, but I also like it because then Julie decks the other one and just knocks it on the ground, and then grabs a syringe and is squaring off with the other one who has a syringe, and she says, I know what’s in that one. Would I find out what’s in this one? She’s, like, jabbing it at her.

Todd:  She just runs, doesn’t she?

Craig:  Yeah. So the nurses get out. So then it’s just Julie and Dylan alone in there. She locks the door. Mhmm. And Dylan, starts to fall asleep, and she’s trying, trying, trying to keep him awake. And here, really, is where Freddie kind of emerges in his full glory, in the new costume, the new look. I mean, we’ve seen him briefly once with his encounter with Heather, but he just comes he rises up from behind her.  And Dylan can see him and is scared, and he says, Julie, behind you. And she looks around, and she doesn’t see anything because she’s awake. But Freddie just slowly reaches up his glove and then just plunges it right into her back. And then we get a throwback to the scene from, the first movie with Tina

Todd:  still. Yep.

Craig:  Where, he takes her up the walls on the ceiling. Again, just like in the first movie, they recorded this in a a rotating room. Uh-huh. And it’s, you know, it’s a total throwback. And it’s scary. You see this kid, you know, he’s he’s terrified. You can see it in his face, and he’s, like, frozen in fear. And his babysitter’s up on the ceiling, and Freddie’s standing on the ceiling, and the babysitter’s reaching down and saying, help me.  And he reaches out to try to help. And then Freddie, like, breaks her neck, and she falls down to the ground. And Dylan screams he screams, Rex,

Todd:  and and runs off. That’s a neat a thread that, you know, comes up time and time again in the movie about his dinosaur Mhmm. Keeping, keeping him safe.

Craig:  It’s cute.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s very cute. And and so they had managed to get in the room at this time. And and so now everybody’s just stunned. Right. Like, the nurses, everybody, even the the the big bad woman, she just makes no effort to restrain anybody. They’re just like, Dylan’s gone. Yeah.  Oh, he couldn’t be gone. He’s so heavily sedated. And one

Craig:  of my favorite lines in the movie, Heather says, he sleeps off, you idiot. He’s fully capable of walking out of this hospital. She goes chasing out after him. There is another part where she was trying to go visit Dylan, and he was in a restricted area. And some nurse said, this is a restricted area. Do you have

Clip:  a pass? And she says,

Craig:  screw your pass, just like in the first movie. I love these throwbacks.

Todd:  Except it was a hall pass at that time. Right.

Craig:  Right. In high school. She knows, because she had told Dylan, we’re really close to home. It’s just across the freeway. She pointed out the window. So she knows that’s where he’s headed. And then so she goes chasing after him, and in fact, that is where he’s headed. And because he’s sleepwalking, Freddie can mess with him.  And we get this whole scene on the freeway. It was all done with green screens. And you can kinda tell, but there’s no other way you could’ve done it

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  With, you know, this little kid walking across the busy freeway, all these cars trying to swerve. And, Heather eventually gets there, and she’s, you know, trying to get to him. The cars are swerving around her. There’s a cool shot where a semi, like, jackknifes and goes right over her head.

Todd:  Oh, man.

Craig:  Meanwhile, Freddy’s, like, huge and in the clouds and picks up Dylan with one of his claws and is, like, dangling him in front of the cars. And, eventually, he drops him, and Dylan goes off, runs off to the other side of the road. Heather gets hit by a car. This is another thing. In movies, I love it that people just get nailed by cars and then just get up and running.

Clip:  I know. Right? This car

Todd:  had to be going what? Like at least 60.

Craig:  Oh, at least. She like rolls up on the hood and bounces off and rolls 20 feet in front, but she’s alright. And when she gets there, she notices that there’s a car in the front yard or in the front, like, drive. And when she goes in, the doors are open, and the first person that she sees is John Saxon. And he’s like, Heather, what happened to you? You know, what’s going on? She says, where’s Dylan? He says, he’s fine. He’s he’s right over there. She goes over. She starts hugging Dylan, and he John Saxon says, what’s wrong? And he she says, I know how Chase really died.  It was Fred Craig. And he says, yeah. Right. And turns and walks starts walking away. And he he tells her, leave Dylan here. I wanna talk to you for a minute. And he he walks her outside, and he says, Nancy, you gotta stop doing this. And she says, why are you calling me Nancy John? He says, why are you calling me John? And he walks a little further out of frame, and he turns back around, and he’s back in the costume from the first movie, his his cop costume.  Same thing happens here, and it’s at this moment that she realizes, now I have to make the choice. Am I gonna do this, or am I not

Todd:  gonna do it? Yep. And she has no recourse. This guy is not gonna help her.

Craig:  Right. Yeah. And meanwhile, in Dylan’s bedroom, you see Freddie coming up under the sheet, very reminiscent of the latex special effect in the first movie. He’s coming up. It’s really, you know, spooky. And she the dad says, I love you, Nancy. And she kinda takes a breath and says, I love you too, daddy. And that’s when Freddie pops you know, rips out and comes through the sheet, and he’s now in the real world.  And, the camera kinda spins around, and we see that Heather is now Nancy again. She’s in her pajamas from the finale of the first movie. Funnily enough, she and John Saxon both are wearing the exact same clothes, not replicas of the clothes from the first movie, the exact costumes. Somebody had kept them, and they got them back and were wearing the exact same ones from 10

Todd:  years previous. Word.

Craig:  And this is where the finale happens. She goes in. Dylan’s nowhere to be found. She kinda hears Freddie laughing and saying, almost there, as he’s been saying throughout. But earlier in the movie, she had been reading Hansel and Gretel to Dylan, and she was kind of disturbed by how dark and scary it was. But he made her finish it so that they could talk about how they found their way home, and it was breadcrumbs. So she notices one of his sleeping pills on the ground and realizes that he’s leaving her breadcrumbs to find him. And they lead to his bed, and she looks under the sheet.  Nothing there. And then she realizes, oh, I I gotta be asleep. He’s left me these so that I can join him. She takes the pills. She goes back under the blanket, and then there’s that tunnel again. And she goes she starts sliding down it. At first, it’s kinda like sheets, like, tented sheets, and then it turns into, like, the vents from the, the the boiler room, and then there’s water and roots and all kinds of stuff in there. And this is when things get huge.  I mean, it it goes to a scale that none of the movies had gone to before. She at the end of the tunnel, she comes out of this huge enormous Freddy head. She comes out of his mouth and plummets, you know, what looks like stories down into this pool. And now we are in, like, this underworld. It kinda looks like a devastated ancient city or something.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And it’s basically the set from the first part of the movie just on a much more epic scale.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Craig:  And this is where the final, showdown takes place.

Todd:  And the set’s very rare. I mean, it’s like ancient Greece. It’s like we’re really going back to what many would you know, what at least iconically is sort of considered the dawn of storytelling. Right? Right. And so, and on the walls are words carved in the stone like anger and lust and all these elements that go into making drama. So it really is like she’s coming into this world that is representative of the root of storytelling. And that’s where they’re battling it out. It’s such a great idea.  And there, Freddie is not as supernatural. He’s a little supernatural, Let’s put it that way, but he can be hurt. Mhmm. He can be kicked around. He doesn’t have quite the control over the environment. She they also have control over the environment to a certain extent. And so they’re, again, kind of on this playing field, this ancient area. And, there’s some chasing going on, and, she finds Dylan finally.

Craig:  And they find the script Yes. For the movie. And she’s kind of reading about, you know, things that are happening in the moment. And then Freddie pops back up, and he beats her up a little bit and throws her around. Again, you know, it would have been super easy for him to kill her, boom, like that. But he kinda toys with her, and he knocks her. Dylan stabs him in the leg to to get him away from his mom. And so then he throws her, like, in the pool, and, he chases Dylan around for a while.  And he chases Dylan into this, like, furnace, I guess, or an oven.

Todd:  You know, it’s interesting. It’s it’s like Hansel and Gretel. Right? Mhmm. But it’s also the boiler room. Right. It’s like a perfect combination of the 2. Right. It really works.  It’s a great, great way that he set this up.

Craig:  And it was totally foreshadowed earlier with the reading of Hansel and Gretel. Exactly. And it

Todd:  makes perfect sense. Exactly, and it goes right into that theme of these are ancient stories, this is what, so this is his bottle, this is the genie’s bottle and Freddy’s the genie. And so Dylan goes into the oven and he’s able to kind of go around the side of it because it’s an oven with the fire in the middle And that’s where he tries to hide as Freddy, who can’t quite get in the oven, reaches in and tries to grab him.

Craig:  And you’ve got that arm extension effect that they’ve used in the other movies. And, eventually, Heather wakes up, and she’s running to try to get to Dylan. And they do a throwback to that scene of her running up the stairs in her house in the first movie where the stairs turn into goo. The same thing happens here. But, eventually, she gets to him, and she stabs, Freddie, I think. And, she yells, Dylan, get out of there. Dylan kinda takes a side exit, I guess.

Todd:  Yeah. It’s kinda weak, isn’t it? There’s, like, a a hole, but there’s a oh, there’s

Craig:  a snake in it. Oh.

Todd:  Hope he can kick that snake out of the way.

Craig:  But he gets the snake out, and they push, Freddy in and close the doors. So he’s stuck in there, but he jumps up right behind the bars and shoots his tongue out, and it’s super long, and it starts wrapping around Heather’s face and neck. Again, it’s kind of a corny effect, but it’s in keeping. I mean, that’s and, again, it it plays with that kind of lascivious, you know, sexual undertone. Not only does it completely wrap around her face, but then you see that it’s also wrapping around her body underneath her clothes. Mhmm. Dylan comes around with a knife, grabs a Todd of the tongue. It’s kind of funny if the tongue’s, like, struggling.  He’s eventually able to stab it, and the tongue starts to retract back into Freddie’s mouth off of Heather. It eventually, you know, pulls away from the knife so that it’s forked.

Todd:  You know, it’s interesting also the iconography here. You know? Oh, the fork tongue. Got the forked tongue Right. In the in the fire, which then when they turn crank up the furnace, and he, explodes essentially. But he before that, he transforms into essentially a devil thing.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. Almost like the root of of of all, evil bad guys in the story.

Craig:  You know? So we kinda it’s really brief, but we kinda get a glimpse of that evil thing that he really is when he’s not in Freddy form.

Todd:  Yeah. Like, arguably, like the first story, Adam and Eve Yeah. The devil, the horse, tongue, serpent. You know? It’s it’s just he’s another manifestation of all the bad characters in a bad story.

Craig:  Yeah. Absolutely. And it makes sense and it, you know, it’s it’s it’s cool. It’s an interesting concept. He blows up. Again, you know, it’s it’s super fitting. Death by Fire, just like Mhmm. You know, in the the original way that the man, Fred Kruger, died, the original way that Heather killed him or Nancy, I guess, rather, in the first movie.  And Dylan and and Heather run, and they jump back into that pool that she initially landed in. Everything. The whole world goes up in flames. The whole supernatural world goes up in flames, and, Dylan and Heather come tumbling out of the foot of Dylan’s bed. And there’s smoke. She looks under the sheets. There’s smoke, but everything else is gone. And Dylan says, the witch is dead.  And they and they,

Todd:  see a there’s a script laying there. It was the script from the Yep. From the world, I guess,

Craig:  that Mhmm.

Todd:  Carried through with them. And she picks it up and flips to the end and can see

Craig:  Well, there’s there’s a note on the front, Like, a Post it note that says, Heather, thank you for having the courage to play Nancy one last time, Wes. Yeah. And so she flips to the back, and, like, you see the the note in the script, and you see what’s gonna happen. It says Dylan says, is it a story? And she says, yeah. And he and you’re seeing all this on the page as they’re saying it. Read me some. And she flips back to the front and starts reading him the scripts

Todd:  of the movie. And that’s it. As they pull out of his bedroom, which has, like, as you’re pulling out, it has, like, a castle there. Uh-huh.

Clip:  And then,

Todd:  you know, all these sort of fairy tale elements. And I feel like this is, this is Wes Craven’s statement about, again, parents who say that these movies are too scary, that these stories that children need to be shielded from this. What I think he’s saying here is no, children live in stories. They need to be told stories. Stories need to be kept alive. I mean, literally in the movie, if the story isn’t kept alive, evil comes out. Right? And this story that she had been shielding him from this whole time that everybody told her she needed to shield him from, she turns to the front and starts reading to

Clip:  him. Mhmm.

Todd:  You know? Like, that’s the way that we defeat the evil is by continuing to tell the story, and we need to tell stories to our children and not be afraid to do so. So.

Craig:  And I love that message. I just absolutely love it, and it’s such a great way to end the series. You know, Robert England, up until recently, has has made appearances at, you know, festivals and whatnot in his makeup. Sometime earlier this year, he said, I’m done. And he said, I’m gonna do one more. I’ll put the makeup on one more time. And you can understand why. It took 6 hours to apply every single time, so that could get old.  And so as of right now, it looks pretty unlikely that we’re gonna be seeing a Robert England Freddy movie again. And while that’s a little bit sad because I love them so much, I really do feel like this really caps off the series really well. You’ve got Freddy versus Jason, but that’s kind of its own standalone thing. I mean, this really bookends the the true series

Todd:  Oh, yeah.

Craig:  So well.

Todd:  It’s the fitting end to it. And and, again, in typical Wes Craven style, I mean, he was an English teacher or professor. Right? I think. I mean, the guy knows what he’s doing, and he pulls from strong literary sources. He’s a fantastic writer. He knew how to make this how to redeem everything and kinda bring it back around and and encapsulate it.

Craig:  Well, and take advantage of it too. You know, take advantage of the way that things had turned out. You just you acknowledge it and you work with it. And it almost you know, it seems like it was meant to play out that way. Like, we wouldn’t have gotten this movie if the other movies hadn’t devolved into something else.

Todd:  Yeah. Because it comments on that whole thing. Mhmm. Now there was a reboot. Right? A remake? A remake. It was terrible. One? Okay. I don’t

Craig:  know. I wouldn’t even tell you to watch it.

Todd:  Oh, I never. Even the completest in me was like, I really don’t even wanna see this.

Craig:  It was awful. I mean, they didn’t do anything innovating. You know, it’s they just tried to retell the same story, almost shot for shot. They focused up a little bit more on the molestation part, and they Freddie was all CGI, and it just doesn’t work.

Clip:  Oh, really?

Craig:  Yeah. I mean, like I mean, Jackie Earle Haley, the actor played him, but they did all CGI on his face. And it it looks fake. It looks like a video game, and it’s not scary. I did not like it at all.

Todd:  Okay. Fair enough. So hopefully, that’s the end of that.

Craig:  Hopefully I will enjoy it. You know that they’ll remake it again at some point. It’s just too valuable of a property to just let go. It’s gonna it’s gonna

Todd:  make money.

Craig:  Yeah. Maybe not huge blockbuster money, but it’ll bring in people because there are so many fans.

Todd:  Well and regardless, Freddy’s Place is pretty much forever cement along with Frankenstein and Dracula Yeah. In in cinema. Way more so, I think, personally than, like, Jason and and many of those other characters.

Craig:  He’s more

Todd:  interesting. More there.

Clip:  Yeah.

Todd:  Mhmm. Just so much meatier. Well, thank you again for listening to 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. If you like us on Facebook and leave us a comment, maybe we can have a little conversation. Yeah. You can tell us what you think and suggest other movies for us to see. Until then, I’m Todd, and I’m Craig with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Not gonna lie: We loved this movie to death, and can’t imagine any horror fan who wouldn’t go crazy over the clever, funny, and supremely touching film that is The Final Girls. From beginning to end, it took us on a roller-coaster of emotions. And maybe we cried a little bit at the end? Just a little bit…

The Final Girls (2015)

Episode 36, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Craig:  Welcome to another episode of 2 Guys in a Chainsaw. I’m Craig

Todd:  And I’m Todd. 

Craig:  Todd let me pick the movie today, and I picked one that I’ve been wanting to do for a really long time. Yes. Todd, we are talking about 2015 film, The Final Girls. Not to be mistaken for, the also 2015, The Final Girl, Which is also a good movie, but that’s not what we’re talking about today. 

Todd:  It’s not a high it’s highly rated as this one, 

Craig:  I see. 

Todd:  But Right. 

Craig:  I saw this movie, oh, gosh. I don’t know. A few months ago, just one time, and I fell Absolutely in love with it. I think within the 1st 10 minutes, my eyes were watery. My Smile was just going from ear to ear because I knew exactly what kind of movie this was gonna be, and I was absolutely in Love. So what did you 

Todd:  think, Todd? I have to admit the same way. And Craig has been begging actually to do this movie for quite some time. But I didn’t read a thing about it. In fact, I actually acquired the wrong movie initially. I got the final girl that you were talking about earlier without the s The end. And it was this morning when I realized, oh, crap. I need to find the the right one. I had no idea what it was about.   I mean, I had this idea probably. It’s something to do with the final girl concept, But as, the movie went on, I was like, oh, probably what? About 15 minutes into it. I said, oh, I see where this is going and was Hirely pleased. 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, gosh. It’s just such a a clever concept, and I’m just surprised that we haven’t already seen this Movie. I mean, it’s really you know, it’s clever, but so I guess the concept is we start out with the trailer For a cheesy eighties slasher film. Right? 

Todd:  Camp Bloodbath. Camp Bloodbath. Right. 

Clip:  They’ll be screaming for kumbano. Pack your bags for camp bloodbath.   You just messed with the Wrong virgin.   Where the only marshmallow that will roast is your sanity. 

Craig:  And it’s it’s clearly a Friday 13th Ripoff 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Or homage, even better. It’s terribly eighties and wonderfully eighties at the same time. I mean, it’s exactly what We went to the theater for for all those Friday 13th movies. 

Todd:  It gets you in a good mood right off the bat. 

Craig:  Right. Yeah. Bad acting, just, you know, all of your classic tropes with the, you know, the sex gets you killed and all that stuff. Cordy one liners. Oh, yeah. You all have seen Friday 13th. You you know what we’re talking about, and the sequels too. And then we cut after the trailer.   We cut, to this scene with Tasia Farmiga and Malin Akerman, 2 actresses who I am, like, huge, huge fanboy fans of. Tayshia is from, well, from a lot of things, but I know her primarily from, American Horror Story. She was in the 1st season Murder House, and she was in Coven also. And she’s wonderful in Both. Madelyn Ackerman has been in lots of stuff. She’s this gorgeous character actress, who is So, like, stunningly beautiful in such a charming way, but also, like, ridiculously funny too. And their mother and daughter, Malin Akerman is is the mom. Her She’s and she’s an actress, Amanda Cartwright.   But this is in present day, so she, you know, she’s known for her Eighties roles, and she’s having problems being taken seriously as an actress now. And she’s gone, I guess, to an audition, and she’s and and her daughter, Max, Tessa Farmiga, is with her. And they’re in the car, and they’re talking, and it’s really cute mother and daughter stuff back and 4th, and Mullen Akerman says something like 

Todd:  slide You 

Clip:  know, everything in my life I got wrong, but you I got right. You won’t have I love you. You know that. 

Todd:  Right? It’s really sweet. This exchange couldn’t be sweeter, except it it never got into the saccharin ridiculous territory. 

Craig:  No. It was Cute. 

Todd:  It was very believable as a mother daughter kind of thing, and, it just it was very touching. 

Craig:  Yeah. It was a great way to set up their relationship. It felt authentic to me. Absolutely. And they’re just driving along, and they’re playing. It’s really playful, and and the song comes on the radio, Bette Davis Eyes. You know, great eighties song, and and Mullen Akerman’s kinda lip syncing and dancing around. It’s really cute.   But Max, the daughter, spills her coffee, which distracts the mom, and they’re in this terrible car accident. And I read online that the the car accident was all done with CGI, but it looked great. I mean fantastic. I’m gonna gush over this whole movie because I just love everything about it. 

Todd:  Todd. The this whole, we’re We’re gonna have to look out for our equipment because we are gushing all over this film. My room will never be the same. We are finished with this. Yeah. Oh, my word. It what it was just so and it was well filmed. You know? I was just little moments of even this car sequence.   I I was going, oh, that’s cool. Oh, that’s cool. After the car crashes, it it’s just night, and there’s nobody else there. Mhmm. It’s like a car crash on a Cold, wet, dark road in the middle of the night, and, and then the light just turns red. 

Craig:  You know? 

Todd:  It just clicks. Just these moments in this film are so good. I agree a 100%. 

Craig:  And then and then we cut what Todd how 3 years later. You know? It cuts to black. 3 years later, Max is waking up in her bed, And, we realized very quickly that her mother didn’t survive the Craig. But she’s, you know, a teenager now. Again, another thing, you know, they make in that opening scene, they make Tessa Farmiga look so young and they make Malin Akerman look or Malin Akerman, excuse me, look so much, Yeah. Believably older than her. 

Clip:  They did a good job with that. 

Craig:  Then we get this set up. We meet her friends. We meet Max’s friends. She’s got this friend, Gerty, who is kind of the but cute and funny one. And then there’s Chris, who’s the hot guy who, Gertie is trying to hook Max up with, and there’s Duncan, who’s like the nerdy horror film guy. Right? Duncan is a oh, what was the name of it? A mathematician, Which I guess is the the club in their school that is, like, obsessed with these these movies. 

Todd:  Who who people who are obsessed with camp camp bloodbath Franchise apparently. Right. 

Craig:  They call themselves. Yeah. And he apparently has just realized that Max is the daughter of the star of this movie. And so he wants her to come to this showing, And she doesn’t want to, but he says, I’ll do all your homework for you, and so she agrees. 

Todd:  He works at, like, the theater, doesn’t he? 

Craig:  Or Yeah. I think so. Mhmm. And so she agrees to do it. And so all of the friends meet up at the movie theater, and, you know, there’s just the cool posters for Can’t blood bath. It’s also throwback to the eighties. It’s all so fun. 

Todd:  It really is. And yet they’re really laying it on thick of Present day references. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  You know, you kinda notice that the 1 girl drives up. Oh, I think that’s when we’re first introduced to Vicky Yeah. Which is her friend Who I apparently, they were better friends earlier and have grown apart a little bit because Vicky is that prissy, what would you call her? She’s the girl who’s She’s 

Craig:  the mean girl Kind of. Girl. Yeah. I mean, she’s, you know, passive aggressive. I mean, like, she’s still kinda their friend, but 

Todd:  super hot and knows it. Right. It kinda flaunts it and everything. And she pulls up, and she starts making Twitter references. And and, later on, they’re talking about Adderall. She says something about She hasn’t she’s she’s got her Adderall with her and and all that, and it’s like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, but I actually liked that. I thought that was cool. You know, it’s funny, but and I don’t know if it’s just because writers tend to be just a little bit older.   You don’t we’re just now starting to see movies that feel like, Okay. Absolutely. They take place present day. Right. Right. Everybody has a cell phone, sure, but everybody’s referencing Twitter, and I’ve I expected a Snapchat reference in here somewhere, you know, at some point, and that was cool. Like, it really puts the movie here, which which is a perfect setup for later. Right.   So it it was very intentional, I’m sure, but it also I consciously appreciated that. I don’t know. I felt like this movie. I don’t know. I I felt like I was watching something that came out yesterday. 

Craig:  Yeah. Definitely. And you’re right. It’s it’s a perfect juxtaposition. There’s all kinds of funny I mean, it’s just it’s Such a funny movie. Really, you know, we got a little bit into it, and I almost felt like I had tricked Todd a little bit because it’s it’s really it is a horror film, but It’s so much more than that. And really, like, there’s so much comedy. It’s so funny.   I mean, it’s just laugh out loud funny, Like, 90% of the time. Yeah. 

Todd:  And it’s funny how well it works. They’re not trying that hard. I mean, there are so many movies that crack jokes that are so similar, But they’re so they’re just not as funny as this movie is, and I don’t know if it’s a combination of the act I think it’s a combination delivery, the actors involved, the way it’s presented. Altogether, this movie just works. It just gels so well. And it 

Craig:  just seems like the actors were having so much fun. And at the end, you know, in the with the credits, they do, a bloopers reel. And you can just see that these actors were playing and having so much fun. A couple of, the actors, we haven’t introduced the character yet, because he hasn’t come up yet, but Kurt, Adam Devine, he’s actually a musical theater kinda guy. Most people would probably know him from Pitch Perfects, but he’s done stuff on Broadway and stuff too. He and, the guy that plays Chris, I believe, We’re encouraged to adlib a lot of their lines, and they did, and a lot of it made it into the film. And you can tell. I mean, it’s just it’s It’s real it’s, like, fresh funny.   It doesn’t seem like superscripted trying to sell jokes. It’s it’s just it’s hilarious. 

Todd:  It really is. And it also never goes into that territory that we’ve accused films of before where they’re almost a little too clever. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Like, that line sounds so written. Right. People aren’t really that witty in real life. This sounds like how people talk. How young you know, Craig and I hang around young people all day long, and and we know how they talk. This isn’t really far from that, is it? No. It’s great. It’s great. 

Craig:  It’s really fresh. It’s really clever. 

Clip:  Hey. What a coincidence. This is Tyson. We’ve been hanging out, and he’s so funny. My hands are, like, shredded I’m laughing so hard. Anyway, Dyson wanted to come here tonight, and I was like, ugh. We don’t know, but and here we are, so You went, Dyson.   So you 

Craig:  didn’t see my post about it or anything? 

Clip:  No. I don’t go on your stupid Twitter, which 

Todd:  by the 

Clip:  way, I lost 3 more followers today. Anyway, see you guys inside. K? 

Craig:  So they’re at the movie, and the movie’s playing. And, you know, there’s lots of fun gags in the lobby like, Duncan trips over the The velvet rope and just little gags like that. But they’re watching the movie, and then there’s this really cool sequence Almost like a like a Final Destination kind of scene. 

Todd:  That was the vibe I was getting as well where things are happening in the movie that they’re watching. And it has to be said that obviously, Max is a little hesitant. She’s sort of happy to do it in a way, but this also happens Todd be the anniversary of her mom’s death. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And so, obviously, that’s going through her mind, but it has been 3 years later, and her mom was in films. That’s something that she’s had Todd deal with her whole life, and I was thinking about that that whole time. Well, I don’t know if anybody’s ever really explored this topic, at least not much, But it’s something that’s fascinated me, and that is what is it like to be immortalized Mhmm. As a character on the screen, but more so what is it like For you as family to see a loved one immortalized on the screen, especially in this particular circumstance when they’re no longer around. Right. And early on, without hammering you over the head with it, you see this problem. You know, you and you almost know it’s gonna creep up again. Right? And I didn’t a thing about the movie, and I still felt like, oh, this is a theme.   This is something we’re gonna be exploring, and this is really interesting to me. But she plays it so well. She doesn’t play it over it’s it’s like it just seems real. Yeah. You know? It seems so real how the way it would be. And so this is the point at which The the the world of the movie, at least a little bit, is paralleling the world, of of reality. It’s starting to blur those lines before That actually happens a 100%. Right.   Like you said, it’s this sort of final destination thing where there’s, somebody on screen. I think it’s her mom’s character, Nancy, lights The a lighter. And in the meantime, somebody in the theater flicks a lighter to light a cigarette, which I’m not sure what movie did you have. Okay. Whatever. And then, at the same time, somebody else in the in the movie a little minute or 2 later chugs, Like, out of a bottle. Like a jacket or something. Yeah.   And somebody in the theater chugs a bottle out, and and I’m thinking, what? What’s where’s this going? And It’s this convoluted series of events where the bottle falls and rolls down and spills this, alcohol all the way up to the curtain and underneath everybody. And then, of course, this guy’s ash falls right down at just the inappropriate time, lights it all up Just as she is starting to walk out of the theater. Right. 

Craig:  It’s the because it’s the point where her mom on film is about to get killed. Yeah. And so she Gets up to, like, excuse herself, but then the theaters burst into flames. And she looks back at her friends, and she runs back to them, and They can see that all the exits are blocked, but she Todd Duncan, who works in the theater, is there a a door behind the screen? And he says, yeah. And, you know, this is one of those things. It’s like, a film not a film festival, but it’s like a party. You know? Like, people are dressed up, and, somebody had, like, a machete, because the guy in the movie, Billy, the bad guy in the movie, kills people with a machete, and they drop it. So Max picks it up, and they run towards the screen.   And she Slices the screen open, and from behind it, there’s this brilliant glow. And the friends all start going through, and Max takes one back look back around, but then she goes through too. And then it’s like The Wizard of Oz. I mean, it’s just like 

Todd:  The Wizard of Oz. It’s just like The Wizard of Oz. 

Craig:  Yeah. They wake up in this Technicolor world and, like, Again, you know, I unreal looking. 

Todd:  Yeah. Immediately, you can tell that it’s unreal looking forest. You know? They’re like Flowers that are brightly colored, and then you you’re conscious of it. Uh-huh. Yeah. And I was like and at that moment, I was like, I turned to Craig, and I said, oh, it’s gonna be one of these 

Craig:  kind of movies. That was it. And and that’s the thing. Now they have entered into the movie. And, you know, they’re standing there kind of in the forest, and they they hear a car coming. And it’s this, you know, like, seventies VW van with these The characters from the movie 

Todd:  in it And we’d seen a scene earlier. We’ve seen we’ve somehow just seen enough scenes from this movie to be able to draw parallels whether it was from that trailer that we had seen at the beginning or whether it was from the little clips we were seeing with her in the movie theater. Right? 

Craig:  Right. Right. And so at first, Like, the the the the van pulls up, and they’re like, hey. The Tina, in the van the movie cast, We’ve got Kurt who is supposed to be, like, the Lothario kinda guy, but it’s also hysterically funny because, I mean, he’s a good looking guy, but he’s not, like, You’re ripped, you know, hot guy that you would which makes it even funnier. 

Todd:  He’s like the on the football team. Yeah. Todd, I do. 

Craig:  And he’s just He’s just so hilarious. I I I don’t even know. I mean, folks, you’re gonna have to watch the movie to see, but we can’t possibly do it justice just talking about it. But, so there’s Kurt, and then there’s Tina who is kind of the dumb blondish one. Yeah. For the slutty girl. Right. I read they kind of based her character around the, like, PJ Soul’s character from Halloween.   Mhmm. So many homages in this movie. I mean, we couldn’t possibly list them all. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Again, I think that’s why you and I enjoyed it So much is because we love these kind of movies and to see somebody paying tribute to them while poking fun of it in a really good natured way. Yeah. So much It’s it’s on 

Todd:  a different level of this it’s different from, like, the scream franchise. Yeah. You know? It’s it’s maybe more comedy than the scream movies were 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  But also hyper self aware. Yes. But I don’t know, man. I don’t know why this movie was so much better Then there are other films that try to do this. You know? There are other films that try to poke fun. And maybe by the end of this podcast, I will have figured out the formula as to why this movie was way more fun than any of the rest of those. 

Craig:  Well, I I think that part of it is because it’s got so much humor. It is So hysterically funny, but it also has so much heart. And I think that that’s hard to get in horror and in comedy. And to get a a horror comedy that really has this much heart because it really comes down to another one of the characters in the movie is Nancy, Who is is Malin Akerman. But, of course, in the movie, she’s the character. She doesn’t know that she’s the mom. But right away, it you realize that it’s gonna become this thing where Max is gonna have an opportunity Todd interact with her mother again. Yes.   And that mother daughter thing, that vibe that plays through the whole thing, Max trying to look out for her. And, eventually, as time goes on, you know, they become close, and Nancy wants to look out for Max. And it’s such a sweet dynamic, and the actresses are so good That it has it has so much heart. And I read that, initially, this was New Line wanted to license it, but they wanted to cut out all that sentimental stuff. 

Todd:  That is Cutting out the whole heart of this I know. That would this movie would not that’s probably it. It’s what you’re saying is exactly it. If this film didn’t have that as its emotional core, It wouldn’t have been it would’ve just been another, oh, Look at. We’re poking fun of horror movies by by mimic mocking them and going over the top with certain things. But because of this emotional core of her reconnecting with her mother, getting a second chance to Spend time with this loved one that she dearly misses, and then maybe even a way Todd, save her, you know? Right. Oh my gosh. It’s it was Kill a bit. 

Craig:  And and it’s so surprising to me how they could balance those different tones because you have this Straight, almost slapstick comedy in so much of the movie. And then you’ll have these moments between characters. Like, even In the movie theater, Chris and Max have this little moment where she’s, you know, kinda saying it’s kinda weird to be here to see the movie or whatever. And Chris just says, well, But isn’t it nice to kinda be able to honor your mother’s memory in this way? And and she just kinda quietly concedes. You know? It’s those those Sweet moments. And then later in the film, Max and Nancy have moments that are not Entirely devoid of comedy, but that’s not where the focus is. It’s really on their relationship, and it it’s believable and it’s sweet to the point We are gonna cry, folks. 

Todd:  I I, yeah, I I I lost it a couple times during this movie. Yeah. 

Craig:  I was try I was Trying not to because I I don’t know. Stereotypical horror fan, whatever. But, you know, I’m a sensitive guy. I I get choked up about all kinds of things, and I I wanna embarrass myself in front of Todd crying over this corny horror movie. 

Todd:  Little did he realize maybe he realize that over here like, oh, geez. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I I hear him sniffing a little bit and rubbing his eyes, and I I didn’t I didn’t wanna look because I didn’t want to be uncomfortable or whatever. But It but seriously, I mean, it it’s got that much heart to where it affects you on a surprising level, and I just love it. You know? I Through the whole movie, my my face was just glowing and, you know, as soon as it was over, I just I love this movie. 

Todd:  Any film that can take you on an emotional roller is is what we would what I would consider a successful film. You know, that’s did I like the movie? Well, the answer to that question is did it touch me? Yeah. And this movie This movie touched me in so many places. It’s just a joy when you can get a film that has you laughing out loud 1 minute and then just bawling your eyes out the next and can bring you back then to that laugh out loud moment just a couple minutes later. You know? It’s Yeah. It just strikes the right balance. 

Craig:  Yeah. And and so then, you know, what what happens is they eventually realize, okay. We’re in the movie. And there are So many clever things. Like, the van goes by several times before, and every time it goes by, it says 92 Minutes Later. The exact length of both The actual Camp Bloodbath film and this film, 92 Minutes Later. 

Todd:  And that’s Todd Duncan puts 2 and 2 together. He’s the guy, like, I can’t remember the name of the character scream. 

Craig:  He knows all the rule 

Todd:  or whatever, and he he instantly is, like, sets his watch, and he realizes this 92 minutes later, and he goes, oh, don’t you guys realize we’re in the movie? And so when they pull up that 3rd time, Tina is like, you guys know the way to the camp, and he says, well, yeah. We’re actually, we’re counselors there, and I can show you the way if you’ll just give us a ride. Yeah. And so, okay, hop on in. So they all hop in, Which and this is the 1 maybe just the only criticism really I have of the movie is Yeah. As soon as they get in the car, and they’re just driving along. And when now we’ve seen this scene in the movie movie camp bloodbath play out where at some point, the driver, Kurt, turns around and says, somebody wake up Sleeping Beauty. Mhmm.   And in the back, is, obviously, is Max’s mother Mhmm. His character, Nancy, who comes out. And Now come on. There there’s no way that Max isn’t sitting here thinking this whole time that her mom is also in the car too. So when that moment comes up, a little silly. 

Craig:  It is a little silly. 

Todd:  She turns around and has that moment. I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t know how else you could have set it up. Right. You know? 

Craig:  Be because She’s not the, you know, the horror movie one who I don’t know. You’re right. It is a little bit silly that she wouldn’t have thought about it before she got in. But at the same time, It was still kind of sweet. You know? I mean, between you know, when you see the look on, Tasia Farmiga’s face, it’s You feel for her. Like do. Oh, like, my god. What would that be like to not only encounter your deceased mother, but In her youth and at at her prime and to see her in all her glory. 

Todd:  I mean Happy and playful. Yeah. But, you know, even not the because In in the beginning of the movie, there was some indication that she was a little beat down, you know, by the fact that she would been typecast or she just couldn’t get anything good. I mean, they’re coming after that audition, and they were joking about it, and they get past it, but you could see it tell that was a lingering thing. So here was she When she was doing that part that she was sure was gonna rock at her to stardom, it just did it in a whole different way. Right. You know? And so they had to have that moment. So, of course, I’ll I’ll I’ll forgive that.   You know? Yeah. I don’t know how else you could’ve could’ve done it really. 

Craig:  Right. They they so they all go to the camp, and and it’s Funny because the characters in the movie like, they don’t know really how to interact with these new people, but They’re trying to go along with it, and and the the people from outside of the movie are trying to play along. And there’s just so much Silly, hilarious dialogue. 

Todd:  They’re even using old eighties slang back to Right. Characters in the film. 

Craig:  Yeah. Right? Yeah. I think that there’s There’s a point where, they go up to Kurt because they’re they’re thinking about their first thought is we’ll just take the van, and we’ll drive out of here. So they go up to Kurt to ask for the keys, and Kurt is throwing all these lame, like, lines at them or whatever. And 

Clip:  Oh, what’s up? Fun bags?   Fun bags. Right. A feminism. Listen. We need to borrow your van for a little while. Okay. Yeah.   I don’t know. 

Craig:  What’s in it for me? 

Clip:  How about my friends don’t kick your ass?   Oh, This guy’s your friend. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You wanna go? No. No. The guy said smash. Okay.   And that would kill you. That’s a karate technique. No.   I don’t I’ve never actually fought anyone before in my life.   Yeah. Well, I have so many times. Seven times. 

Todd:  Hey. Do we this is so weird. 

Craig:  Do me 

Clip:  a favor and just zing me   and just get me. Fine. How about you 

Craig:  go suck a turd? Writing is so bad. Such corny 

Todd:  corny. We’ve lived through this. We understand it. This time and period of films, it it that was also a neat thing about this movie is it was really Not just, showing the dichotomy between the now and the then, but also the now and the then in film and how we’ve really gotten past A lot of ridiculous stuff that we used to put up with in pop culture. You know, if you go far far enough back, There are all these racial stereotypes Right. That we used to be so much a part of movies that just embarrass us today. What go up a couple notches, and there are other stereotypes as well that we used to perpetuate in films that you go back and you look at them now and you just shake your head, like, I can’t believe we used Talk like that. I can’t believe, you know, people thought that was funny Mhmm.   And stuff. And they have there’s so many of those moments in here too that it makes you hyper aware. In in some ways, very proud. Like, I was, like, hyper aware, like, wow. Look how far we’ve come in just a couple decades. This guy just, like, is is making boob jokes Right. Girls, like, right in their faces, And they’re just laughing at it like it’s funny or they’re just brushing it off. I mean, this guy would have been arrested so quickly.   Right. 

Craig:  Yeah. I mean, we just 

Todd:  size for Sexual, assault. Yeah. 

Craig:  I mean, that was just kind of what we expected from those movies. You know? That kind of sexism, you know, exploiting women, and It’s not I think that we’re proud of I think we’re more proud of how far we’ve come, but there’s I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s nostalgia or what, but, like, Kurt at one point says to some girl, nice legs. What time do they open? Just just the most horrible and and the girls in those movies in the eighties would respond to that flirtatiously. You know, women Today would punch that guy in the face, but Yeah. I don’t know. It’s it’s a day gone by that we went through, and we can look back now and laugh. This was 

Todd:  a safe naturedly. A very safe way to go back and and laugh at it. 

Craig:  Well, and it it that’s what it seems like. Like, it is making fun of those movies, but it seems like it’s It’s people like us making fun of them. You know? It’s it’s good natured. It’s we love it too. That’s why we wanna laugh about it. It’s it’s so good. Then okay. So they figure out they’re in the movie.   The 1st girl to die, they see her going off into the woods. So they know that things are progressing the way that they’re supposed to in the movie. They follow her out there, and there’s this really hilarious dialogue like, Shouldn’t we stop this? I can’t believe we’re just gonna sit here and watch these people casually get murdered. Yeah. 

Todd:  Which which was interesting. As as that line came up, obviously, ding, ding, ding, ding. You know, we’re thinking back I don’t know about you, but I was thinking back to, Funny Games. Yeah. And I I was I thought, wow, are we gonna start going here too where we where we’re talking about the entertainment of violence and these people are are living through this film, They’re gonna watch these people die, yet, they’re not going to intervene and do anything, but this is gonna bother them so much more. That Todd didn’t really go there. 

Craig:  No. Not really. I mean, it’s it hinted at it a little bit, but I mean, then that’s what they do. They sit there and watch the movie play out. Billy, the Jason esque killer comes, and he kills this, counselor and this hot Like, hi, girl guy that she met in the woods. And, again, it’s just such cheesy, like I mean, what is he says, like, do you know the how to get there? And she’s like, 

Clip:  A guy like you could go anywhere. 

Craig:  And and then they just started making out in the woods. So cheesy and stupid and hilarious. And so they they they’re like Hiding behind a log, it’s almost like cartoonish like Scooby Doo 

Clip:  or something. Their heads 

Todd:  are just all poking up one right after the other. 

Craig:  And they watch these people get killed, and then Billy turns and sees them. And I think just stands there and and, the hot guy, Chris, is like, run. And so they all start running except for Duncan who says, no. Don’t worry about it. He we’re not from the movie, so he doesn’t know what to do with us. He’ll leave us alone. 

Todd:  Yeah. Duncan thinks he has this the rules of this world all figured out. 

Craig:  And it plays out so funny because it seems like he’s gonna be right. Like, the the killer just stands there for a while, and then the killer, like, walks right up to him, and Duncan is clearly really scared, but the killer kinda walks away. And Duncan’s like, see, guys? Told you. And then the machete comes flying in the frame and slices right through his abdomen, and he falls over presumably dead. 

Todd:  So we immediately know that, there there are no rules here. These guys are just as much in it as anybody else, and so that immediately ratchets up up the stakes. So it takes us from this observational laughing at moment into okay. Now we need to really get invested in these characters because they are now in peril. And and that’s at the point at which I I would say that’s the point which it becomes a horror movie, really. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  With you? I mean, essentially. 

Craig:  Well but it’s even pretty light on it. 

Todd:  Oh, it is. 

Craig:  Because Billy doesn’t show up again for quite a while. I mean, there’s a lot of interaction between the characters where the folks from outside the movie kinda figure out what’s going on and and say, you know, we gotta we gotta make to the end of the movie. And the end of the movie is when, you know, the I feel like they say that’s the rule. Duncan says that before he dies. Movies like this end when the final girl kills the bad guy. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And and he he tells them who the the final girl is. It’s this girl named Paula. She’s like the hot badass girl. And he’s like, she’s gonna show up in the next frame. 

Todd:  Yeah. Like, the next scene, he’ll be Right. Like, what do you say? Like, 20 minutes in, she’s gonna show up. 

Craig:  And so they Decide before Duncan gets killed. We just gotta find this final girl and stick with her until the end, and then everything will be okay. 

Todd:  And and knowing the rules of the film, there’s also this sense That’s that anybody who has sex is going to die, and this is really the spurs the first more or less poignant encounter between Max And, her mom’s character, Nancy, where Nancy’s out there, Nancy’s just just volunteers that she’s going to, oh, yeah. I’m totally gonna do, Kurt tonight. 

Clip:  Kurt told me he wants to do it later. Wow. Just like that? I know. And it’s like, I can’t stay virgin forever, you know? And he’s been with a lot of girls, so he probably would be, like, I don’t know, help me along. You shouldn’t have sex. Why? Because I I heard that sex can kill you. Max, sex isn’t anything to be afraid of. I told myself that I was gonna lose my virginity this summer, get drunk.   Not necessarily in that order. It’s just trust me. Sound like my mom. Yeah. 

Todd:  Oh, man. 

Craig:  But it 

Todd:  was a very interesting reversal at that point, which kind of continues where she does end up being the caretaker because She, like a mother over her child, has more information, has more worldly knowledge and experience than her mother’s character in the film. Right. And so she takes on this role of caretaker for her and, and make Sure. Just starts to intervene to make sure that you don’t take your Todd off. Don’t have sex 

Craig:  with that guy. Despite the warning, We we see the beginning of the scene that we’ve already seen from earlier in the theater where Nancy is going she’s, like, getting herself ready. She’s spraying for fruit perfume. She’s lighting candles. And there are so many funny things that they do with how being in a movie and being aware that you’re in a movie It makes such a difference because as soon as Nancy starts doing all this stuff, getting ready for sex, you start hearing the, Which is is stolen just directly, from Friday 13th. But the the the characters from outside the movie can hear it. So so they like, oh, 

Todd:  crap. So she runs 

Craig:  up the stairs. Right. It’s like, no. You can’t do this. You can’t have sex. 

Todd:  And This movie, more than any of these, I’m in a movie movie, maybe not since the last action hero has anybody taken it this far. Yeah. I mean, you see titles on the screen that actually exist in their world that they’re stepping over. Right. Their sound effects are coming in and all that stuff, and I really appreciated that they just went whole hog on it. And after she Todd them. They run downstairs, and I’m pretty sure isn’t this the point of which Yeah. Says, oh, it’s Billy.   Billy, Billy Murphy, is gonna kill us, and Nancy says, Billy Murphy. You don’t mean the Billy Murphy. And she slips right into her Scene which we’ve already seen in the flashback scene where she does the flashback. And it’s 

Craig:  so funny because she starts telling the story and, like, she and all of the other in the movie characters just drift to the couches where they’re supposed to be. 

Todd:  Sit down at once to sit down and hear this story. It’s it’s blocked. It’s totally blocked. And everybody else is looking at them like, what the heck? 

Craig:  And she starts to tell this story, and there’s this really cool I mean, I don’t even know. I feel like the budget couldn’t have been huge on this. Some of the effects except for towards the end. Towards the end, they seem to be really cool, but some of them seem to be maybe a little cheap, but Believable and fun. Like, when when Nancy starts telling the flashback story, it’s almost like the celluloid kinda starts to melt from up above and melts down all around them until then they are in black and white at which they comment on. Wait a minute. Am I color blind that I 

Todd:  have a Joke what’s happening. It’s that it’s that, that, you know, liquidy look where Right. You know, you’ve seen in the movies were over going back in time. And For some reason, long, long ago, somebody decided that flat that that transition needed to look like it was like water Right. Like, Oh, like Wade’s world. And, and so, yeah, this is like the real world manifestation of what that would be like, I guess, having the liquid water kind of everything around you gets blurry. 

Craig:  Wash away. Yeah. It’s neat. And and so then they’re in the flashback, back, and they’re in black and white. They see the whole Billy origin story, which was that he was kind of this weird kid that everybody picked on, and the counselors Played a prank on him. He locked himself in the outhouse, and they said, oh, I know how to get him out. And they threw, like, this big thing of firecrackers in there, and he that’s how he got burned. And then it said, like, he wanted to cover up his, his physical scars, so he made a mask.   And it’s this funny kinda it’s like a Greek tragedy mask. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Clip:  I read 

Todd:  with a tiki mask, anyway. 

Craig:  Yeah. I read that, initially, The mask had these great big eyebrows, and everybody on the set referred to it as the Eugene Levy, mask. But, eventually, they trimmed the eyebrows down a little bit, but it’s I mean, it’s almost comical. It’s kinda scary. It’s not like something you wouldn’t have seen in any of those Copycat slasher movies. And so we get the origin story, and it’s very typical of any of the origin stories of those slasher stories. 

Todd:  Me of, Was it called The Burning? Yeah. The Yeah. It was. There was actually a lot of this movie that reminded me of that, and I’m and I’ll hopefully, I can pinpoint why as we go along. 

Craig:  Well, I don’t even remember if I’ve seen that movie, but I did read that they were inspired by that. Oh, really? Yeah. But it’s, That’s 

Todd:  a pretty notorious one anyway. 

Craig:  Right. Well and, I mean, with the whole Camp setting. I mean, there’s a clear Friday 13th reference. They don’t really delve so much into the whole Pamela Voorhees thing or anything. 

Todd:  But Yeah. But there are Shades of it, and I guess also shades of the burning toward the end where they retreat to another location and but that which is also a little bit of Friday 13th as well. But 

Craig:  Well, there’s so many homages. I mean, we’ve got characters named, Nancy and Tina. I mean, these are the 2 main girls from Nightmare on Elm Street. I mean, Folks, I encourage you to re if you’re interested in this movie, read the trivia on IMDB. 

Todd:  It’s like 5 pages long. 

Craig:  Yeah. And there’s every most is is gold. I mean, it’s it’s it’s so interesting. But so they get the flashback, then they get a and it’s funny. In the flashback, when Billy kills the counselors, Blood splashes on Gertie’s face. And when they come back in to real time, the blood is still on her face. And so when the story’s over, all of the camp Counselors look out at her and scream and run out the building like they’re gonna try to run and get away. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And the out of the movie characters say you can’t get away, because they’ve already tried. They’ve run away, and, like, everything just played on a loop, and they realized there was no escaping it. 

Todd:  Which was, which is also kinda like Friday, Nightmare on Elm Street 4, is 

Craig:  it the dream 1 yeah. 

Todd:  That we had that looping sequence? Yep. 

Craig:  I hadn’t thought of that, but, yeah, it’s exactly like that. And they tried to run away, and this is when people well, we Paula arrived, and they kinda tried to cling on to her or whatever, and she’s hilarious. I mean, she plays that tough girl in the horror movie Perfectly. 

Todd:  Which is interesting because usually the final girl in the horror movie is not the tough girl at all. 

Craig:  Right. It’s usually the sweet girl. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And that’s who they modeled Nancy after. They modeled Nancy after, I won’t be able to think of her name, but Oh, I her the actress’s name is Amy something from 1 of the Friday 13th movies, maybe 3, blondes. Anyway, not the telekinetic one. Don’t know. But anyway so everybody starts to try to run away, and, Chris and Paula Jump into Paula’s car. Paula’s car is like, you know, a muscle car with the license plate Paula 1. I mean, it’s all it’s so cheesy but funny. And and they’re driving away, and everybody’s like, but wait.   She’s the final girl. Wait. Wait. And she, out of nowhere, right walking in the road comes Duncan saying, hey. Wait, guys. I’m not dead. And she plows him down. And Chris is like, oh my god.   You killed Duckett. And he makes some pervy sex joke with totally, you 

Todd:  know It was just Kurt. 

Craig:  Right? Is it Kurt? Yeah. You’re right, Kurt. Sorry. I’m getting them mixed up. Kurt, the the goofy one. Yeah. And then so the Paula crashes her car. Kurt goes flying out.   It is like totally mangled on the road. And then they’re like, Paula, wait. We need you, and the car explodes. Yes. Which which which throws their whole plan out of whack. Yeah. So then they have to rethink 

Todd:  You know, it’s funny the way Kurt was mangled. Did you did you ever see It Follows? Yes. I did. Remember the opening sequence of that where they’re slowly panning across a beach, And you see somebody who’s mangled in almost that exact same where their Todd is just bent backwards, and it’s like their legs are hanging down. 

Craig:  I don’t remember. I just saw it once. 

Todd:  Yeah. It was, like, Pretty much the same thing. 

Craig:  I thought that was interesting. And, you know, it’s gross. And this is where we kinda start to get more of the horror elements where people are getting killed in different ways. 

Todd:  Also really comical. It is. Hilariously. Like a cartoon in some ways. 

Craig:  Oh, definitely. And it’s a PG 13 movie. And, you know, I I read online all the time, you know, comments from Horror fans who are not fans of PG 13 horror, and I’m not really sure why that is. We don’t get a lot of gore in this movie. We, you know, we see Violence, but there’s not a lot of bloodletting. There’s not, there’s implied sexual content and implied nudity, but you don’t see a lot of it. No. And you Don’t need it.   I mean, we get it. You know? We get that somebody has to show their tits for Billy to arrive, but we don’t have to see them. Yeah. You know what I mean? I I thought they they could have gone there, and it would have been fine, and maybe it would have been just as funny or maybe more funny. I don’t know. Well, I But it just didn’t feel necessary. 

Todd:  I think what you’re you know, hearing you talk, Craig, that’s the same that’s our modern sensibility. You know what I mean? It’s the same thing about the a like, When I was talking earlier, we’ve kind of gone beyond that now where that’s necessary or that’s even really titillating. Yesterday’s you know, our movie is today’s PG 13. Right? You can go on the Internet. You can find whatever you want. You can find real people get Hacked up on the Internet. No longer is it Well, and 

Craig:  you can find your fair share of boobs on the Internet too. 

Todd:  Absolutely. So it’s no longer entertainment. And so In these even in these films, I was struck by the fact that, no, I didn’t need to see this at all. You know? It didn’t make the movie. Of course, Back then, that was a lot of what made the movie because the movie was pretty crappy otherwise. Right. You know? Yeah. I I I was I was a I was a fan of that.   I liked the idea that I could probably sit No. Actually, I probably couldn’t, but this is about as close as it gets to me being able to sit down even with my wife and watching this. 

Craig:  I was wondering that. She 

Todd:  Now there are a few things in here that would have bothered her nonetheless. Like, she can’t really even see Chevy Chase take a pratfall. Gotcha. You know? That that’s kind of the level we’re dealing with, but just just a couple notches Above that is all this is. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s a fair PG 13. Mhmm. 

Todd:  They really I mean, Indiana Jones is in some races more violent than this is. 

Craig:  And I’m cool with it. I I think it struck a great balance. I don’t have any problem with that at all. At that point, I feel like they they make a plan. They Duncan had said something about he can only be killed with his own or something like that, and, everything else will only hurt him. But they set up, you know, like, these traps, and it’s great. It’s a perfect eighties Todd mean, it’s Nancy going around and setting up all these things in her house to trap Freddie. Yep.   It’s exactly that. And you’ve got the classic, you know, kinda 80 cent music in the background. And so they set up all this stuff, and the the way that they’re gonna get Billy there is that in the original movie, at At this in the slumber party scene, Tina did a strip tease. So up until now, they’ve had her with, like, Oven mitts on and, like, a a life vest from the boat to keep her from taking her clothes off so Billy won’t come around. 

Todd:  It’s like Tina’s sole purpose in life, And everything that drives her is the ability to tear at her own clothes. Yeah. That is the implication that you get from this. Is that Tina’s just looking for any and every excuse 

Craig:  Oh, she’s just the sex bot. When when, Max and Nancy are having the conversation about why Nancy shouldn’t have sex, Nancy says, Sex isn’t bad. Tina’s already have it twice today, and she’s perfectly normal. And then it cuts to a scene of Nancy, like, grinding up on Tina. For oh, yeah. Excuse Excuse me. 

Clip:  Tina grinding up on Chris, the hot guy. 

Todd:  Well, in every scene Tina’s in, she’s just off in space doing some kind of dance or grinding on a table Or yeah. Got her Walkman, and then she’s dancing again. 

Craig:  And and there are jokes that, you know, Tina’s, you know, kind of fascinated with, Vicky’s iPhone, and, she finds the Adderall in in, I guess she’s wearing Vicky’s jacket. She finds the Adderall. And at first, Vicky takes it away for her and says, no. Not for you. But eventually, somehow she gets it back, and she takes, like, all of them. So she’s just, like, comically hopped up on Adderall, and they’re like, oh, no. We’ll have to change the plan. She’s like, no.   I got this. 

Todd:  I got it. 

Craig:  And she so they’re like, alright. Let’s give her a chance. And she does this strip tease. Like a strip tease on Adderall. Yes. And 2, cherry pie, which oh, god. You just don’t get any more eighties than that. We don’t.   And, it’s great. The striptease is so Funny. Like, she’s so hyped up, and I read that she just totally made that up on her own. Just added it to the whole thing, and it is hilarious. She’s down grinding on the ground. And eventually at the end of it, she pulls up her top. Again, we don’t see her boobs, but we know that she’s showing her boobs. And at that very moment, out of the fog comes walking Billy, and it’s just perfect. 

Todd:  He’s like a bear to honey right there. Oh my god. It’s so And, of course, it doesn’t go as planned. Right. He comes in, and, she actually tripping, Running away from him and tripping into one of the traps, her head goes right to a bear trap. And he comes in, And, the they release a giant, they shut the door, and at the back of the door, they put all these antlers, light spikes on it. They release a giant hammer. That goes into him, and he flies up very movie style into the the antlers and the spikes, and so you think everything’s gonna be fine.   But then Somebody comes nearby. 

Craig:  The black guy who we’ve not even mentioned, his name is Blake, who who I expected them to play him as the the gay guy because he kinda had that look about him Yeah. But they didn’t. He actually had that look 

Todd:  about him. Sure. 

Craig:  He, he he kinda had a thing with Gertie and, like, so they Kiss, and I think he’s trying to go be the hero. He’s trying to go get the machete, but Billy wakes up. 

Todd:  The problem is that they kiss. He says, I love you, and she says, I don’t care. And she kisses him, and you’re thinking, oh, you idiot. This is the moment. Of course, he goes up to get the machete, and the machete ends up, He wakes up and kinda slashes him with the machete instead. So he falls down. There’s a moment between Gertie and him, and then they all run up stairs as he launches himself off of those spikes and goes after them. 

Craig:  Yeah. There was also Vicky’s about to die, which is why I wanted to say this. Again, another one of these moments where it’s so self referential and funny, but at the same time kinda sweet. There’s this moment at some point where Gertie and, Max and Vicki are all talking together. And and Vicki says, You know, when your mom died, you really retreated into yourself, and I miss you. You know? We were friends. And she said, I know that I’ve become kind of a, and Says, bitch. She’s like, yeah.   Yeah. Thanks. She’s like, but, you know, I’m I’m I and I know I did some things that were bad and that I shouldn’t have done, but I’m really sorry, and I love you, or I don’t know what she says. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And and it’s it kind of comes out of nowhere, and it should be silly and it is, but it feels heartfelt. Like, it feels True. And she said, Max says, don’t you don’t have to die. And she says, I’m the mean girl in an eighties movie. I’ve made it past the halfway mark. I think I pretty much overstayed my welcome. 

Todd:  Yeah. Which is funny and also kinda sad. Right. Because she recognizes herself in this movie. You know, it’s like, you don’t real recognize yourself until you see it reflected back at you. This is what she’s experienced now. And now This girl who we were introduced to in the beginning of the movie and it totally pegged her Yeah. As that girl.   She sees that girl, realizes I says she’s that girl, and now she’s contrite about it. 

Craig:  Right. And that’s one of the things that I think that this movie does so well is that it gives you these kind of stock characters, but then it forces you to be sad when they die because they’re not just Todd. They’re real people that have Feelings, and they have more than one level. They’re really not flat, and so you’d you want them all to you know they’re not going Todd, but you want them all to make it, and you’re legit sad when they die as opposed to in the regular where you’re almost waiting for it and applauding when it happens. 

Todd:  Yeah. But their whole plot, their whole thing with her is with, taking this guy down is just as absurd as in any of these films. Yeah. Because, at their chasing as he’s chasing after them and they are running upstairs, they’re shooting him with flaming arrows from across the room, which none of it makes any sense. It’s so funny, but of so he has all these flaming arrows in his chest, and when they run upstairs, one of their schemes was that he would come into a room, and they would dump this bucket of gasoline, I guess, on him to really ignite the arrows. And that’s where these 2 girls, Gerdie and, Vicky. Vicky gets stuck. For some reason, they’re yanking on it.   It’s not coming down. He comes in, throws a bookshelf on them. They’re pinned underneath the bookshelf, And there’s that moment where you know they’re gonna die, they know they’re gonna die, and, escaping out the window, Max and, Chris know that they’re going to die, and there’s nothing they can really do. And Vicky looks up and and says, it’s okay. Mhmm. It’s okay. Like, I’ve accepted my fate. This was destiny.   Go on and save yourself, and gives them that permission to leave. 

Craig:  Right. And it’s sweet. You know, Gerty gets stabbed, and they’re both trapped under the thing. Billy takes his machete and stabs through Gertie. And, again, it’s sad. We like this character. 

Todd:  It really bothered me, actually, like, more than they would 

Craig:  And and and like you said, you know, they say it’s okay. And They hold hands. They hold hands. 

Todd:  Each other’s hands. 

Craig:  And then they pull down they’ve been trying to pull Bucket. Finally, Vicky gives it one last. The other people, the one the the remaining people are now Chris, Max, and Nancy. They get out the window, and Vicky pulls this bucket Todd, and the house explodes. And this I felt like was where the effects started to get So cool. Yeah. They the the heroes jump out the window, and it goes into slow mo. And Nancy goes, What’s happening? And Max is like, It’s slow mo.   And then Billy and just really I mean, I feel they kinda tried to do this in some of the later in those franchises of, like, Friday 13th and whatnot. He bursts out of the house in flames, And it’s this slow mo shot where he just slowly, slowly descends and stomps down right in front of him, and they get up and run. And this whole chase scene is in slow mo, and he’s right behind them, but it I don’t know. It it it looked To me, like, it was really good slow mo. Like, they were really running, and it it really captured it, with him right behind. And, oh, god. I thought the effect was So cool. 

Todd:  Really cool, and it really adds this tension to the scene, you know, and that slow mo tries to give you this tension. But in this case, where the slow mo is this self aware kind of slow mo, you’re thinking I I don’t know. I was Todd immediately putting myself in their shoes and thinking of the effort it would have taken to, like, Trying really hard to bring your foot forward and this foot forward. And and if you’re in slow mo, but your mind is going at normal speed, like, How are you planning and plotting out every little movement that you make? Right. And I was thinking, wow. This is actually kind of an advantage that they have. Yeah. You know, if they’re aware of the slow mo and able to plot and plan, and then they get to that pot pond and I’m and they start to leap over.   Right? 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And, They start to leap over the pond, but, of course, the guy reaches out and grabs somebody’s leg. Chris. Chris’s leg. Right? And that’s when Chris gets 

Craig:  Well, it breaks out of the slow mo at that 

Todd:  point. Right. 

Craig:  And so they’re kinda stuck there, and I think it’s Max says, flashback. Flashback. Say the words. Say the words. And so Nancy starts telling her story again really, really fast, and it goes into flashback, and they’re right back where they were. And this again is where they did some really fun things with the lettering where it says I don’t know how many years 

Todd:  later. The Christmas 1957 

Craig:  Right. Or something. And, like, characters are tripping over the letters, and the letters are, like, spilling out like they’re part of the actual environment. Really clever. 

Todd:  And this is the point and I actually predicted I was wrong, but I thought they were gonna go back and actually prevent those firecrackers from going into that outhouse the 1st place and erase him, essentially. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And I was surprised that Todd didn’t even occur to them. They didn’t really go there. But what they did do was follow Billy, after After he emerged from the outhouse and saw that there was some kind of other cabin or some kind of house back in the woods Craig something like or whatnot. 

Craig:  Says, I’ve never seen this part of camp before, which is always how it is. I mean, in Friday 13th, you know, Jason has his little shack just right outside the camp, and nobody knows about it. 

Todd:  And that so that gave them the information. Right. Yes. 

Craig:  And then Billy is also with them in the flash Back and when he catches up with them, then somehow they get out of it, and he’s kind of not there anymore. 

Todd:  I don’t know how Todd spell that. Chris gets 

Craig:  Stabbed. Right? He 

Todd:  gets stabbed by Billy and, Through 

Craig:  and with the machete through his abdomen, and Max is like, Are you okay? He’s like, yeah. I’m fine. 

Todd:  She grabs him and takes him to a church. The old church. The old abandoned church. That was so funny. At this point, we’re really breaking into total surrealness. Yes. Like, the movie is Clearly doesn’t even care anymore. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  We are going full whole hog Hollywood here, and she’s taken this advantage with the light behind it. 

Craig:  Right. The stained glass. Those Right. Again, I mean, it is the finale of some of those later in the franchise, right, in 13th movies. And, like, where they don’t even bother to really make sense. Like, instead of just killing Nancy, Billy throws him over her show throws her over his shoulder and and takes her off. And, 

Todd:  Which in a way, you’re thinking if she’s supposed to be the final girl in the movie logic, he’s gotta do something with her besides killing. Right. So we’re gearing up for the final scene. Right? Right. So it still makes some sense, but you’re right. It is absolutely part and parcel any single one of these films. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Yeah. And so, when Billy takes Nancy off, Chris is, you know, saying to Max, it’s too late for her. It’s too late for her. She’s gone. She’s dead. But Max says, no. She’s not. I’m gonna get her back.   I can protect her. I can save her. And I feel like it was before this. You know? It was when they found out about Billy and they were, you know, preparing to protect themselves, that’s when we really get that really, really personal and emotional scene between Nancy and, her or and Max. Excuse me. And Nancy is saying, you know, I I don’t wanna die. You know? I I had had A dream that I would go to college, and I would meet a guy, and I would have a daughter, and I would love her. And Yeah.   It it it sounds so silly. I mean, We I don’t think that we can really convey. I mean, it’s it’s it’s so sweet. 

Todd:  Comes across so much better on the film than we can describe it. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  But this is when they’re I think they’re dipping the arrows in the gasoline Yeah. Getting ready. This was shortly after the montage, but they had this mother and daughter moment where the mother didn’t realize this was her daughter, And the daughter never let on. 

Craig:  Right. 

Clip:  God. Your parents must be freaking out right now. I mean, you’ve been gone for hours. They must be so worried about you. Not really. Never knew my dad, and my mom’s away. What’s she like? She, she was so beautiful and funny. She never knew how awesome she was.   Had she die? Never said she’d die. You said was, so I just figured. It’s okay. You don’t have to tell me. Here. I need to have this. It’s a friendship bracelet, so you don’t forget me. How could I ever forget you? 

Craig:  It’s almost like they’re she senses some sort of connection, but they don’t know. And and, like, With us talking about it, it seems like it would be out of place in the movie, but it’s not. It just works. I mean, they pull back on the comedy a little bit. They take these moments to really get us invested in these characters and care about their relationships, and I you know, we have to credit the actresses. It was just such strong performance that it worked. Yes. Somewhere else with weaker performances, it would have feel it felt cheesy.   It would have felt forced, But here, it just really works. 

Todd:  It really did. And so that sets you up for what’s about to come. 

Craig:  Right. Max goes to find Nancy, and she finds her tied up in this place, then Billy shows up, and all 3 of them kind of start fighting. Like, Billy will hit 1, and the other one will Strike back at him, and they’re getting some blows in, but really they’re kinda getting beat up until finally, Billy doesn’t have his machete anymore, but he has this little knife, like a pocket knife, and he stabs Max with it. I don’t remember how this happened. Like, I I know that Nancy, like, kind of took him out a little bit somehow with the machete. Like, he was out of commission for a minute, And they were able to run back to the church. Right? Uh-huh. That’s where they again, they have this conversation where Max Finally confesses, Nancy says, it’s okay.   You’re not gonna die. I’m gonna be the final girl. I’m not just gonna be the shy girl with the clipboard and the guitar anymore, which is kind of what she’s been lamenting this whole time that she was just the shy girl with the clipboard and 

Clip:  the guitar. 

Todd:  Well, because somebody said that outright. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. Vicky, I think, did. Mhmm. So you can’t be the final girl. She’s like, I can do this. You’re, you know, you’re still alive. All I have to do is go out and and die, and you guys can go home.   And that’s when Max confesses the truth. 

Clip:  No. Mom, you belong at home with me. Look, your your name is Amanda Carvey, and you live in Encino, and and you love Bette Davis Eyes and Mel’s diaper, and You wanted to be the biggest movie star more than anything 

Craig:  in the world. 

Clip:  But you had a daughter. You have it, dummy. 

Craig:  I’m not going 

Clip:  back without you. 

Todd:  And that’s such a poignant moment because, you know that’s what’s gonna happen. Mhmm. And it’s What has to happen, really? Because eventually, they have to get back to the real world, and her mother is still going to be dead. And throughout this whole film, even the other character just saying, look. She’s not your mom. She’s not your mom. She’s not your mom. She you’re you’re you’re holding on to this, but she’s not.   And in a way, she knows it 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  But She’s just really not ready to let it go. 

Craig:  Well and I really liked that the movie played it that way. I really didn’t think for a minute that Nancy was gonna get out of it, that she was gonna get Todd come back. It wouldn’t have made sense because even within the context of the movie, Even when Max tells her the truth, it’s not as though, oh, realization I’m your mom. No. You know, I am this character that your mom played, but they’ve established this bond that it almost feels motherly. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And it’s really sweet. And so She and, again, the effects here are so cool. It’s this really wide shot of this, you know, the church in the far right frame and then just this Big open space with this crazy supernatural storm, all pink and purple and lightning. And Nancy goes out, And her song starts playing again. The Betty Davis song starts playing again, and she walks out. And she starts kinda doing a little strip tease, but she’s doing it for Max, who is sitting back in the church watching all of this. And so it’s not sexy. It’s Cute.   It’s playful. It’s like when they were in the car. 

Todd:  Yep. It’s an exact replica of what they were doing in the car, except now you know she’s gonna die. Right. And she’s willingly sacrificing himself for her daughter, and there are just so many emotional subtech. I mean, it it just it just Everything leading up to this point set you up for this point, and it pulled the right strings, and I was just like freaking ball. I know. I couldn’t handle it. I was I had a hard time and because it it really did, she’s gotta watch her mother die again.   Uh-huh. But She’s doing it for her so she can live on. Wow. 

Craig:  And it’s not like you don’t want it to happen. Like, you appreciate the heroic nature of it, and it’s so sweet. And so she does. You know? Billy starts she sees Billy coming. Billy’s walking up behind her. She turns away. Nancy turns away and just looks at her daughter and just well, her movie daughter, whatever, and just smiles like, it’s alright. It’s okay.   And, Billy’s just slowly, slowly coming up behind her at the very last 2nd, Max looks away, and it pulls back from a close shot back to that really wide shot. And we see Billy just nail her, you know, right right through the back and, you know, her back arches, and she falls forward, off the ground and kinda slides off of his knife. And yeah. It’s I mean, it it almost feels tragic. You know? Like, it almost it feels like Greek tragedy or something. 

Todd:  It does. And in all the More power to them that this would happen in this absurd Hollywood atmosphere. Yeah. With the the the lightning going and the red Sky and then then shadow and silhouette and whatnot. And, you know, you never feel this way in these horror films when that See this happening. But, boy, it just pull it just tugs at you. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s a gut punch. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  Well, now since She’s the final girl. Max recovers her strength, and she gets up, and she and Billy have this awesome Some fight Todd get I mean, it’s exactly what you want for the final battle. It’s big. You know, Billy is kicking her and punching her, and she’s going Flying like 20 feet back in the air, scooting along the ground when she lands, but always getting back up and coming right back for more. And eventually, he throws his knife, and there’s a cool slow mo shot where she goes down on her knees and leans back, and it flies right over. 

Todd:  It’s like a matrix type. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Craig:  And she jumps up and takes the machete and slices him in the leg and then slices his arm and then slices his head off. And then just like in the eighties movies, Now it’s morning. She wakes up, and the birds are singing. 

Todd:  And for a split second when she woke up because this was a, A flash sort of a throwback to an the earliest scene when she woke up in the film. I thought, don’t tell me she’s gonna wake up in the woods by the road, And this car is gonna Right. Again. You know? I was worried 

Clip:  about it. 

Todd:  Because you’re just seeing her eyes, and she opens up, and it’s exactly like it is when when that happens earlier in the film, but she’s in a hospital. 

Craig:  Well, before the hospital, the credits start to roll. Oh, that’s right. Yeah. The credits start to roll in in the background. And, Chris, who is apparently still alive despite his injuries, comes out and they, like, embrace, and they’re watching the credits roll. And then when the credits are done, It’s like the the film strip, like, runs out on the projector, and they’re kind of stuck in that, and they’re holding one another. And then it goes to bright white, and then she Wakes up in the house. 

Todd:  And and that’s my 2nd criticism of the film. Alright. Artistically, that worked really well. It looked cool. Realistically, Nobody shoots nobody projects film anymore. Yeah. In the theater that they were watching this movie, and I just gotta say 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  I doubt they were projecting a film print of this film. Right. But okay. That’s fine. That was the that was the stupidly enough, that was actually going through my mind. What what we That bit. But it was so cool. Yeah.   The movie ended. And, again, like I said earlier, this movie absolutely commits to being a film, them being inside of a film. Mhmm. And that Credit sequence, I’ve never seen anything like that in any of it. 

Craig:  It was really neat. You know, it reminded me the tonally, the whole movie reminded me a little bit of Cabin in the Woods, but even more pushing for the comedy. And, like, Cabin in the Woods is is pretty graphic and and gross, and they stay away from that, but the tone was kind of there, kind of that self aware Yeah. Idea. But they wake up in the hospital And everybody’s okay. Yes. They suffered injuries. Duncan shows them that he’s got this huge scar 

Todd:  on his abdomen. I thought it would be oh, it’s all a dream kind of thing. And he’s like, nope. It really happened. Here’s my machete scar. 

Craig:  Yeah. Which which seems ridiculous, but the you know, they’re all there. They’re all okay. But then You hear something out in the hallway, and it’s this doctor talking to a nurse like, come on. We’ve got time. And, like, It’s clearly cheese, like sex cheese. And then they look around and they see a Rubik’s cube and a a can of tab Ab and look. Gremlin of a doll.   And they realized that they are now in the sequel, Camp Bloodbath 2. I don’t remember what the rest of the title was. And and Billy comes flying through the window, and and Max grabs her IV Pulled, like, uses a weapon, and that’s where it cuts out. And it’s so funny. 

Todd:  There’s no better way to end this movie. Yeah. There’s no better way. Oh, and 

Craig:  I would watch that sequel too. 

Todd:  Too. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. This you know what? As much as this movie really, Really, really tugged at my heartstrings. I get online, and I’m looking through the credits, and through the trivia as I often I’m Who directed this? What else has he done? Who wrote this? What else have they done? 1 of the writers it’s credited to 2 writers. 1 of them is a guy named Jason, Joshua John Miller. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And, this person has an act been an actor in a couple he was an actor in near dark, and a couple other horror films in the eighties. But it said that apparently his father is Jason Miller, who is father Karas in The Exorcist. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And that he conceived this film and co wrote it as a way of coping with his own father’s death. 

Craig:  That makes perfect sense. I mean, it’s got so much heart. And and like I said, I’m so glad that, The people behind it, I think that it you know, after it was made, they had a difficult time getting it distributed because they wanted to keep it the way that it was. They wanted to keep the heart of it. And, eventually, Sony picked it up and and liked it. They toned it down a little bit because they wanted, a p g 13. But, I’m so glad. See, honestly, like you said, I mean, the balance is one thing, but the heart of it is really What gets you? And and I I think that’s why I’ve wanted to do this for so long. 

Todd:  Oh my god. This is my favorite movie of 2016. I was just, From beginning to end, just enraptured, enthralled. It took me everywhere. Todd me place I didn’t expect to go, and by the end, I’m gonna be thinking about it for a long time. I’ll be watching it again. I’ll try to get Vic to watch it with me. She I think 

Craig:  think she’ll like it. 

Todd:  She would love it if I if I just tell her when to close her eyes. Right. I gotta watch it a couple more times so that I know when she needs to close her eyes. But, Yeah. 

Craig:  And that’s the thing. Like, I I have a really hard time getting my partner to watch horror movies with me too. Yeah. But he he will concede every once in a while. And this is one where we watched it together, and at the end, he wasn’t like, yeah. Whatever. Really? Yeah. No.   He really enjoyed it too. 

Todd:  Cry too? Can you hear me? 

Craig:  He’s not so much of a cry. Oh, okay. I I I I definitely cry. 

Todd:  I cry, like, almost everything. I like for you to cry at the right commercials, so I’m a bad judge of this. But, you know, I also wonder, because I had a similar experience. I might have talked about this before, showing my dad Cabin in the Woods. Mhmm. Okay? My dad’s not really into horror. We watched a few horror movies growing up mostly as a concession to me, but he doesn’t know the tropes. He doesn’t know the things.   And I watched Cabin in the Woods thinking that he would really appreciate and enjoy it, but in the end, because he I realized That because he didn’t know the tropes, because he didn’t understand all that, he really didn’t get the comedy or he didn’t get the thematic thread Mhmm. Of the film, and that caused him to not like it at all. And it wasn’t until afterwards, we had this discussion where I explained everything to him. He appreciated it more, but but the movie, he he was like, why’d you show me this gory you know, I hate gory movies where people are getting cut up and people are hurting each other, and that’s exactly what this was. And if you’re not familiar with horror films, that’s what you would, of course, think. Mhmm. And it didn’t occur to me until I showed that to him that he didn’t have the context. So my question for you is, Do you think this movie requires that advanced knowledge? 

Craig:  I think that being familiar with those old eighties slashers will make you enjoy this movie Eve more. But I don’t know. I just think it’s so funny. Even if you don’t I don’t know. I mean, what horror fan isn’t at least familiar with that type of movie? 

Todd:  Well, and a person who’s not a horror fan should still be familiar because you still have 

Craig:  I mean, it’s So prevalent in pop culture. 

Todd:  Yeah. Even if 

Craig:  you haven’t seen the movies, I mean, you kinda get I don’t know. I I think you’re right. If it Would non horror fans like it? Maybe. Because it is funny. But I really think that it’s It’s for horror fans. You know, it it’s for people who have grown up with these types of movies, and do And and then you just get more on top of that. You get the comedy and you get the heart on top of that. 

Todd:  Well and that thematic thread really about this girl, relationship with her mom should cut through. It really doesn’t matter the genre. We’re sure not you’re familiar with these tropes that they’re making fun of, and it’s it’s just a a wrapping around the core of the film, which should be I don’t know. I mean, my dad Craig this. 

Craig:  Well and if you’re a fan of either of these Which again, I am a huge fan of both of these actresses, Tasia Farmiga and, oh, gosh, Malin Akerman, huge fans. If you’re fans of theirs, you’ve got to see this movie. It’s So funny, and they are so good in it. 

Todd:  Well and the guy who played Kurt, do you know who he is? Yeah. 

Craig:  The guy who played Kurt, his name’s Adam Devine. He’s a musical theater guy. He was in both Pitch Perfect movies, and he was hilarious. And he’s a hilarious guy. 

Todd:  He seems to be. Yeah. 

Craig:  He did a he did a stint, I believe, In the Book of Mormon on Broadway, he’s he’s really funny. He’s very talented. I mean, the guy can sing too. He’s a really talented guy, and he’s hilarious in this movie. 

Todd:  He is and and that’s what you know this movie more than any other I think really if the what you said earlier about the at At the very end, after the credits where we got the outtakes and things, this movie needed it. Yeah. It’s a movie about movies. It’s about people making movies. It’s about these things. The outtakes made sense, but also the outtakes thematically totally worked with the film. My gosh. And they 

Craig:  were so funny, and it was so nice to just be able to laugh and laugh and laugh at the end. I’m so glad they include I’m a fan of outtakes anyway. You know? They’re silly and fun, but here, what I really appreciated about them is you could really just Tell that everybody was having so much fun making this movie. It made me jealous. Like, oh, god. To be to have been a part of this, How much fun would that have been? 

Todd:  This is the movie I wish I had made. Yeah. Yeah. This is really it. 

Craig:  It’s good. Alright. Well, I If you’ve made it this long with us gushing throughout this movie, thank you. We appreciate you listening. If you like our stuff, we’ve got a Whole bunch of back, episodes on Stitcher and iTunes. We’re on Facebook. We’d love to hear your feedback. Let us know what you think.   Let us know, if there’s anything that you would like us to watch and talk about. But until then, I’m Craig And I’m Todd. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Consider the tag line: “You see them on the street. You watch them on TV. You might even vote for one this fall. You think they’re people just like you. You’re wrong. Dead wrong.”

Could a film from the 80’s possibly be more timely today than John Carpenter’s “They Live”? Listen to this week’s episode to discover why this might be the scariest movie we’ve reviewed all year.

They Live (1988)

Episode 35, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Podcast

Todd:  And welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: I’m Craig.

Todd: And today’s film was the 1988 John Carpenter movie, They Live. Craig, you’d seen this before, right?

Craig:  Yeah. When I was a kid. It’s been a long time. I think I saw it just one time when I was a kid.

Todd:  Oh, yeah. I I think I saw it fairly recently, like maybe 3 or 4 years ago. Yeah. I sat down. It was one of those movies I always kinda wanted to watch, but, and of course, the cover. I think my dad really liked it but, you know, I didn’t get to see it for quite later in life. Right. Yeah.  It’s an interesting film. Is it not?

Craig:  Yeah. It is interesting. You know, I I remember the basic premise and I kind of remembered some things about the plot. Really, in a lot of ways, the movie hasn’t aged all that well, except for that I feel like the subject matter is perfectly timely. It could have

Todd:  been made. Yeah. Right. Like just, you know, with a little more explosion, moving a little faster, and that that

Craig:  sort of deal.  And all the advancements in our technology. But, I mean, a lot of it, you know, it’s kind of a movie about aliens, I guess, coming in and kind of controlling us subliminally through advertising and technology. And, my God, the way that we’re all glued to our phones right now. If if some alien race wanted to do this today, I don’t think they’d have any problem.

Todd:  No. It wouldn’t be. They’d sneak it by us. You know, I was just thinking about that actually. The the movie revolves a lot around the television and

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  How we’re all glued to our TVs and, we’re being controlled by these waves coming. Because now everybody has a TV in their home, and there’s a point in the movie where you hear, somebody talking about how even when the TV is off, there are these signals coming through. And I thought, well, you know, it’s pretty much cell phones now. Right. We’ve all got them in our pockets. Right.

Craig:  And you know, they, the man, can tap in and listen to you or record you whenever they want.

Todd:  Yeah. And that’s really what this is all about. It’s like about the man. Yeah. John Carpenter himself just said flat out, yeah, this is like an allegory. I mean, it’s it’s it’s not much of an allegory. It’s pretty bold on its face. Yeah.  His response to Reaganomics is, basically, he’s saying that through this film that the elite, as in the aliens, are controlling us and keeping us subservient through entertainment and sending us subliminal messages all the time that we’re not awakened to. And, the main character in this movie gets awakened to all that and runs off with a small group of people who are also awakened, enlightened as you will, and, tries to do something about it. Right. Yeah.

Craig:  I mean it’s really a very simple story, and that’s it exactly. And you could see, like I said, I feel like it’s ripe for a remake. There’s so much that they could do with it now. And, you know, in the political climate that we are in here in the United States, it would not at all be a stretch to think that some of these folks are aliens, you know, out to control us and destroy us.

Todd:  Trump the alien.

Craig:  Yeah. He okay. You wouldn’t even you don’t have to wear the glasses to see it on him.

Todd:  No. In a way, honestly, I I was I it was almost depressing watching this movie because of how much it rung true. Mhmm. And maybe that’s why I I don’t know. I I just watched it with this melancholy air, of dread in a way. You know, John Carpenter’s really good at, at getting that out, I think. I’ve always loved him as a director. I think if anything John Carpenter makes fun and interesting movies that are just so different in that I don’t know.  I I I get this feeling that he’s just a little frustrated, that some of these lower budget films, like this one was made for, like, $3,000,000. I think it was shot all on location in different places. It opened up number 1, like, that weekend, and then immediately just was out of the theaters like a week later. Yeah. It’s crazy. But this one starts out man from nowhere type thing. Right. It’s like a director.  And, even the guy’s name is Nada, even though we don’t hear it anymore.

Craig:  I kept listening. I kept thinking, surely somebody’s gotta say his name, but they never do.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And, you know, Nada means nothing in Spanish. And, I guess this the the source material was a short story that was written, I think, almost 30 years or so before they actually sixties. Yeah. Yeah. And, the the main character in the short story’s name is Nada, but it’s it’s never mentioned. But played by, Roddy Piper. Rowdy Todd Piper. And, you know, that’s the thing.  Like, I wasn’t really you know, I would watch wrestling because my friends did and stuff. I really wasn’t all that into it, but it seemed like every other boy my age was super into it. Yeah. And I remember that, you know, amongst, like, young adolescents at this time, this movie was super cool, because it was like this action movie with all these gun fights and these big fight scenes and aliens and Roddy Piper. Roddy Piper. Right.

Todd:  Now I was into wrestling only because my friends were into it, so I got into it, you know, and we’d watch it, and Roddy Piper was the guy. What a nice man. I mean, he just comes across as a cool dude. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and he was always the, most of the time he was the enemy in the wrestling world, but occasionally he’d flip over to good, you know, in this in the male soap opera that is professional wrestling. And in this movie, he just exudes a certain charisma, a sort of energy that just by being there, I don’t Todd you feel that way?

Craig:  Yeah. Definitely. I mean, he’s he’s definitely a guy’s guy. Yeah. And and I feel like, you know, John Carpenter makes those kind of movies. You know, they’re they’re, you know, stereotypically. Of course, women can enjoy these movies too, but I I feel like these are kind of guys’ movies. You know? A lot of focus on the action.  The storytelling is not really all that intricate. It’s kind of secondary. But they’re fun romps  to

Todd:  get through. Yeah. So he comes in and, it’s it’s again, it’s just like out of a western. It’s like he wanders into town from, I think he said Denver, eventually, Colorado. So it’s not totally The Man From Nowhere kind of thing. But, when he’s wandering into town, you’re seeing these scenes of these big skyscrapers towering above.

Craig:  What what was this? Los Angeles? Is that what you think  it’s supposed

Todd:  to be? Yep. Los Angeles. And you get that dichotomy of the tall, towering city, and you’re just a small cog in this wheel. And he, in particular, has nothing but the backpack on his back. And so when he wanders in, all he’s doing is looking for work. Right. Just total blue collar. I just need a job to get paid.

Craig:  Well, and and he goes to, like, social services, like, for unemployment or to find work or whatever. And, you know, they I feel like Carpenter really smacks you in the face with this in the first 10 minutes, how there’s this big divide between the wealthy elite and then the downtrodden poor working class.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And so you you know, you see that in the busy office where they’re you know, it’s it’s announced over the Todd speaker. There’s a glitch, and we don’t have food stamps. We don’t even bother apply. When he’s, interviewing with this, I guess unemployment woman. Last place of employment.

Clip:  Denver, Colorado. Worked there for 10 years, and things just seemed to dry up. They lost 14 banks in 1 week.

Craig:  There’s nothing available for you right now.  He  has to go out, you know, and just kind of beat the streets to try to find work. And he does, not easily, but he finds some construction work. And then, you know, you see the other construction guys, and he meets Frank, who’s played by Keith David, who I don’t know a lot about him except for that he’s really familiar. Yes.  He was  in The Thing. Right?  Yeah.

Todd:  He was in The Thing. He’s been in a few, films that, you know, are pretty recognizable. I’m trying to remember names.

Craig:  Well, just another big tough guy. Yeah. And, you know, they kind of buddy up just a little bit. And, Keith, takes Frank Todd, like, this shanty Todd, I guess, where people are kinda just building these little shacks or whatever, and they’re kinda a little local community. And it looks like there’s some kind of charity organization. Like, it’s right across the street from his church. Yeah. And they offer hot meals and stuff through the church or whatever.  Again, a lot of the focus is just on look at these poor people. They’re hard working folks, but they’re downtrodden. And then we start to get into some of the sci fi stuff.

Todd:  Yeah, homeless. And you know what’s so depressing about it is that right now LA is going through this very, thing. I mean, obviously, it’s always been an issue, but it’s it’s even been in the news. These tent cities and shanty towns that are growing larger and larger and larger. And what do you do? You know, you don’t go in and bulldoze them down and destroy these people’s homes, but how do you provide for this group of people? And then there’s always that aspect of the rich folks, people who maybe can’t put themselves in their shoes saying, well, we just need to get rid of the riffraff. Why don’t they just go out and get a job?

Craig:  Oh, well, oh my gosh. That’s so timely right now. Yeah. You know, that’s the kind of the prevailing attitude, in politics right now is that, you know, people who need social services or whatever are in the position that they’re in because it’s their fault, because they’re lazy or shiftless. And I think that, Carpenter is, you know, he’s responding Todd, you know, that couldn’t be more timely today.

Todd:  No. It couldn’t. And it’s really illustrated, and Frank and Nada have a conversation pretty early on. And Nada seems to be of that, maybe more so in the dark, optimistic American guy.

Clip:  Right? We gave the steel companies a break when they needed

Craig:  it. You know

Clip:  what they gave themselves? Raises.  You know, you ought to have a little more patience with life. Yeah.

Craig:  Well, I’m all  out.

Clip:  The whole deal is like some kind of crazy game. They put you at starting line, the name of the game is make it through life. Only everyone’s out for themselves and looking to do you in at the same time. Okay, man. Here we are. Here we are. Now you do what you can, but remember, I’m gonna do my best to blow your ass away. So how are you gonna make it?  I deliver a hard day’s work for my money. I just want the chance. It’ll come. I believe in America. I follow the rules. Everybody’s got their own hard times these days.

Todd:  In a sense, he’s saying you make your own luck. Yeah. And, I just all I know is I’m gonna have to work hard and eventually I’m gonna make it. Right. And Frank really shakes his head at that like, you’re an idiot.

Craig:  Yeah. And Frank says, you know, it’s the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules. And Nada says, I believe in America. You know, I believe if I go out there and do my hard work that eventually things will happen for me. And it’s an interesting, you know, kind of contrast.

Todd:  It is such the national conversation

Craig:  right now.

Todd:  It’s crazy. While they’re there, you

Craig:  know, I guess somehow there’s some electricity in this shanty town because some of these

Todd:  – There’s people who got TV.

Craig:  Yeah, some of these bums sit around watching a TV. And breaking into the regular programming is this kind of weird, subversive message that’s only kind of coming through staticky and saying how they’re controlling us. I don’t remember what I’ll have said. It’s this old, bald guy talking. Nada had seen a street preacher when he had first gotten into town who was preaching the same kind of thing. They’re controlling us, we’re just sheep, we’re asleep, that kind of thing. And he, sees this street preacher here again in this little shanty place. And he sees one of the guys who seems to kind of be in charge, Gilbert.  He sees him take the street preacher into this church across the street, and he kind of becomes interested in what’s going on over there. And as it turns out, there is something going on over there. The church is just a front for this kind of revolutionary movement.

Todd:  Yeah. He walks in, and all the singing and choir sounds that are coming from the church are really just coming from speakers. Yeah. Reel to reel tape. That’s where Yeah. Part of this noise is so charming. All the technology edited. It’s got a mix of this sort

Craig:  of future technology and this clearly eighties technology.

Todd:  Oh, yeah. It’s so eighties. Yeah. And opens up a secret panel. Yeah.

Craig:  Which is totally not secret at all. No. I thought that was kind of funny. Like, he sees this, like, lab. Like, it just looks like your generic chem lab, almost like a a meth lab or something. And, then, yeah, he trips, which he does several times throughout the movie. I thought that was kind of funny. He’s kind of, like, clumsy, always tumbling over things.  But, yeah, there’s this door that’s kind of hidden, I guess. And, I didn’t even really get the significance of it because there are all these boxes all along the outside too.  Yeah.  And then, like, they just had some of them hidden away.  Well, and all you’ve got to

Todd:  do is walk in the side door of this church and you stumble into the whole operation. Right. Right. Right. I mean, there’s no guard. He just wandered in. Yeah. You know? It’s a little silly, the way that that’s set up.

Craig:  Well, the boxes are full of sunglasses, and he doesn’t have any idea what that means, obviously. But, I I I think it’s pretty much right away, you know, right after he kinda stumbles upon that and he’s then he’s kind of watching them from a distance. Right away, the place gets raided. You know? All these cops  come in.  Helicopters come in. Everybody, you know, who is in there runs out and runs away. The cops are chasing them and beating them up. Like, this old preacher guy is is Todd and blind and

Todd:  They’re kicking the crap out

Craig:  of him. Oh my gosh. Yeah. You know, I I I kind of presume they killed him  Yeah.  Is what I’m thinking. But, you know, Nada gets away. And then he he comes back later after everything’s kinda died down. Right?

Todd:  Yeah. He does to investigate. And, of course, the church has been burned up. The police have actually come in and completely cleared out the Chevy Todd with their bulldozers and stuff. And I was reading about this and apparently Roddy Piper came from a not too dissimilar, background of had some home some times when he was homeless, and he said that actually shooting those scenes was very difficult for him, to kinda see. So some of that reaction on his face, you would think is is genuine, I guess, except the reaction on his face a lot of times is this slightly disinterested, dispassionate smirk. You know? Yeah.

Craig:  Yeah. He’s

Todd:  not honestly, I love watching him, but he’s not really the best actor. No. No.

Craig:  I mean, he’s not terrible. I mean, you know, I feel like we still see, you know, kind of stunt casting today where they’ll, you know, cast a big name singer or or athlete or something. And it’s just for the name. And and a lot of the times, their performances are shoddy. But, you know, he held his own. It wasn’t awful.

Todd:  His acting wasn’t so bad. It’s kind of Schwarzenegger esque, right? Yeah. Yeah. Arnold back in the day. Right. He becomes more of a Rambo at some point later on

Craig:  in the film. And it’s pretty one note. But it’s not terrible. It’s not like you’re laughing at how terrible he

Todd:  ends in.

Craig:  It’s just a little flat.

Todd:  That’s true. Well, he goes back in and the church has been cleared out, and a big message that had been written on the wall that said, they live, we sleep

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  Has been painted over. Of course, because he knows about this not this pretty obvious, boy, those police really were not

Craig:  doing it.

Todd:  Right. I’m not very thorough.

Craig:  And it, you know, it becomes an alien movie, and we find out that most of the police are aliens. And it’s so funny because they’re totally inept. Like, we get later on late in the movie, there are these big gun fights, and there will be, like, dozens of these cops, like, shooting machine guns at these 2 guys. Never hit them. Meanwhile, the 2 guys, you know, just have these old pistols. Yeah. And they’re just taking them out left and right.

Todd:  They’re just spraying left and right, whatever. Yeah.

Craig:  So so the aliens are good with their technology, not so good at the, police work, I guess.

Todd:  Yeah. That’s kinda silly. He opens up this secret panel and pulls out a box of sunglasses. When he pulls out the box, runs out to an alley to see what’s actually inside, and he looks into it, oh, it’s more sunglasses.

Craig:  And Yeah. He kinda, like, rifles through thinking there’s Like, sure.

Todd:  There’s more. Right. And he ends up putting the sunglasses on as he’s walking down the street, and instantly he sees one of the large billboards across the street. Now the world’s in black and white through the sunglasses, and it says, obey. Right. It’s a big ad for just a computer, but, the subliminal subtext of the ad is obey. And he looks across at another ad of a chick in a bikini who’s lounging, and it’s telling you to to, you know, go to some faraway place, Hawaii. And he looks at it through the sunglasses and it says, marry and reproduce.  Right. Right. Right.

Craig:  And so he’s looking all around. And, you know, this is what I remember. I I remember thinking this was so cool when I was a kid. You know, these sunglasses that allowed him to see what was really there, even though it was in black and white. And, you know, I don’t know what kind of transfer we watched. It looked really great for a movie from the late eighties. And the black and white stuff was really clean. It looked really good.  But, yeah, he just looks all around and everywhere. Everywhere where there’s an advertisement, everywhere where there’s anything in print or photo, it’s these different subliminal messages. And they’re just in these big, black, block letters on white backgrounds. And it’s stuff like non independent thought, consume, watch TV, buy, stay asleep, submit, do not question authority. And it’s just everywhere. And it’s kind of cool because it makes you realize how much you don’t realize how much you’re inundated with really subliminal stuff all

Todd:  the time. These very same messages.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. You you cut it to its core. This is the truth behind what it is. Right. And the truth is black and white, right? Right. So he sees it in black and white. It’s clever. I mean, I liked it.  I thought that that, that worked for me.

Craig:  Oh, yeah. I liked it too. I think that’s one of the most fun and and, creative elements of the movie. I like it a lot.

Todd:  Yeah. And and even when he looks down at some money, at one point in one guy’s hand, the money printed on it says, this is your God. Right. But, also people. So, you know, at first the people he sees just look like normal people through the glasses, but every now and then somebody in a suit or somebody who’s obviously a little more upper class comes into picture, and they are freaky looking alien people. Right. I remember again, I only saw it when

Craig:  I was a kid. I remember those aliens looking so cool and scary. Today, as we’re watching, you know, it’s it’s almost like they’ve just got like, it’s like a rubber mask. Yeah.

Todd:  It’s so low budget. Yeah.

Craig:  I mean, it’s a good man. It’s an interesting look. It’s not, you know, it’s not copying anything else. I mean, these are unique looking. They’ve got these kind of big, sparkly eyes, and it almost looks like they’re kind of human esque, except it almost looks like they’re flayed or something, like they’re missing skin. Like, you’re just kind of seeing muscular tissues and bone and stuff.

Todd:  Which is smart for the message. I mean, if you’re trying to make parallels to real life, you’d wanna make the aliens more humanoid. Right. Because in essence, he’s basically saying the message is that there are humans who are doing this. Right.

Craig:  Right. Exactly. And that, you know, some people are monsters. Yeah. Basically, is what he’s getting down to. Uh-huh. And, you know, it’s a very clear attack at a certain class of people, which, you know, is is interesting coming from a successful film director.

Todd:  That’s a

Craig:  good point. Right? But,

Todd:  So as he’s going around, he’s he’s really saying out loud what he thinks. Yeah. That’s one of the goofy things about this movie really is that it’s it’s sadly Carpenter couldn’t come up with a better way for us to get into his mind. And honestly, he really didn’t need more than him wandering around and reacting to things. But he says to people

Clip:  You know, you look like the head fell on the cheese dip back in 1957. Lou, you’re okay. This one, real ugly. Oh. You see, I take these glasses off. She looks like a regular person, doesn’t she? Put them back on. Formaldehyde face. That’s what

Craig:  we got. What’s the

Clip:  knock out of you? You get out of there. I call the cops. Call the cops. You know what you need? You You need a Brazilian plastic surgeon.

Todd:  You look ugly. And you know, and he just completely reveals to everybody that he knows their secret Right. Which causes people to start talking into their wristwatches. Right. The alien people. Yeah.

Craig:  Right? Like saying stuff like, I’ve got one who can see. And you know, then you see that they’re all communicating in these watches, and they’re, you know, all starting to kind of, I don’t know, come in. Yeah. Converge on him. Exactly.

Clip:  Yeah.

Craig:  And  so he takes off running, and he ends up kinda getting cornered in this alleyway where 2 cops who are also aliens stop him. And they say something like, I don’t know, like, you know, we can do this the easy way or the hard way or whatever, but he ends up just kinda kicking their asses. Yeah. And he kills them.

Todd:  Yeah. Like, he just shoots shoots them both.

Craig:  And And that was an interesting choice Todd. I mean, I see at some point later on, you know, eventually he gets away and he he teams back up with, Frank. And and Frank says, how many people did you kill? And he said, none. I didn’t kill any people. Yeah. You know, they weren’t people. But it’s kind of he didn’t really have any moral struggle.

Todd:  Yeah. It is an interesting morality Todd this film. Yeah. Total black and white, bad good guy, bad guy. The aliens are the bad guy, and we’re just gonna kill them when we see them, and we’re not supposed to feel, you know, anything for them. Right. And to be fair, I think that’s, I mean, that’s kinda how the movie plays out, all all the way through. The aliens, there’s nothing there’s nothing redeeming about them.  They are here to control us, to consume us, to basically use our planet’s resources and move on to the next one.

Craig:  Right. Yeah. And their their motives are a little bit vague. I never really could understand if they were there because they wanted to inhabit the planet or if they  were just gathering some kind of resources. Or, you know, at  some point, one of somebody says, methane,

Todd:  So now it’s like Exxon is evil because they’re knowingly dumping stuff into the air just because they’re trying to transform the planet. But but then at the same level,

Craig:  our world and and their world. I again It’s a bit of a hole. Yeah. The motives are a little unclear. I I I don’t know that it necessarily matters.

Todd:  You know, it’s it’s because we’re stuck in this bad spot. Right. And that’s all that matters to us. Right? Is that now we feel bad because we’ve been submitting to this the whole time, and we’ve been coaxed in by this message that they are continually giving us that you Todd can be like us. You too can be rich and successful, which again is what Nada originally feels at the beginning. And then it’s only when he puts on the glasses and realizes there is in fact a large conspiracy that the deck is stacked against us from the beginning, and all of that goes out the window. Like, the American dream essentially goes out the window

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  Because the deck’s stacked.

Craig:  Yeah, exactly. And that kind of comes to be the message. Because the deck is stacked, do you stand up and fight, or do you submit to the inevitable? And if you can have personal gain, why not? What is your other alternative? They’re here. They’re in charge. If they are offering you some sort of personal gain for just going along and helping out, why not? But of course, the true American, Nada, knows that no, you know, we have to fight for our freedom and our individuality and all that stuff.

Todd:  Well, it does you know, it raises an interesting point, and that is, okay, if these aliens have the power to come in and give you the wealth and whatever if you go along with them, Why are there poor people? Why are there people who are who are in the dark about why are they keeping so many people in the dark? You know, we’ve seen science fiction films where the aliens come in and just promise the world to the Earth, but there’s always a, like, a sinister catch behind

Clip:  it. Mhmm.

Todd:  In this case, I think the fact that the aliens are coming in, to consume and really don’t care about humanity, that’s why they’ve gotta keep this dichotomy. They’ve gotta keep the poor and the rich. They’ve gotta keep and maintain a certain class struggle to give you something to aspire to Todd grease the wheels for their invasion.

Craig:  Well, and and it’s also, you know, kind of a a control thing. Somebody says that I don’t even remember who says at one point. He says they must love watching us rip each other apart. They must love watching us kill one another. So by raising some people in status and keeping other people down, they’re maintaining that conflict.

Todd:  And allowing us to do a lot of their dirty work.

Craig:  Right. Exactly.

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s interesting.

Craig:  Which again, Todd, isn’t that scary?

Todd:  I know. It is so scary because, it just sort of feels like we’re living through it right now.

Craig:  I know. It’s crazy. Pitting pitting people against one another and, you know, for for political purposes and it’s it’s it’s you know, you put it in the context of a sci fi movie, it’s scary. You put it in the context of reality, it’s even scarier. Yeah. I don’t know, man. It is. Scary time.

Todd:  The scariest movie we’ve seen, like, way more than Right. Right.

Craig:  Or anything else. Well, he he gets away from those cops, and he runs off and

Todd:  Oh, I wanna point one thing out though, which is really cool, and I thought this was a fine choice by the director, writer, same guy, was that he does encounter a cop that’s not an alien. Right. Right? He’s also saying, you know, not all these people and of course we get introduced to that later, but not everybody in authority is a bad guy.

Craig:  And not even all of them know. A lot of them might, but some of them don’t. And so he doesn’t kill the people, and that, you know, that kind of goes throughout the rest of the movie. You know? They’re they’re running around with machine guns and whatnot, and they kill indiscriminately the aliens, but they’ll just let the humans just kinda

Todd:  skirt by. Scrut on by. Yeah. Even if they might be in cahoots, the idea is that they don’t know they’re in cahoots. Right.

Craig:  Right.

Todd:  So So you’re right. So as they go along, he escapes, and he runs across a woman in a

Craig:  Well, we can’t skip this. Oh, no. No. You’re right.

Clip:  You’re right.

Todd:  He ends

Craig:  up, you know, just he he’s trying to hide. He ends up backing into a bank. And and at this point, he’s taken all the weapons from the cops, so he’s armed. He’s got, like, a a shotgun and, you know, pistols and everything. And so, of course, when he turns around in the bank, you know, people start to freak out. And then I think, you know, the classic line from this movie.

Clip:  I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass, And I’m all out of bubblegum.

Craig:  Which is such a silly line.

Todd:  It is. And so funny. It’s iconic. It is iconic. And we’ve seen I mean, we we repeat that line, people talk, or or make modifications on it.

Craig:  I guess, that, you know, stuff that he had planned on using in the ring or or in, you know, interviews and wrestling. Yeah. And so he just ad libbed it, and they kept it. And and I want you know, he’s got silly zingers throughout. I, you know, I wonder how much of that was scripted and how much, you know, when he’s in the bank and he’s been shooting all the aliens, he sees one of them talking into his wristwatch, and he says, mama doesn’t like tattletales. He’s just got all these goofy little quips. And it but it works. You know? It does.  I think it’s, you know, a product of the time. I don’t think that you could get away with that kind of cheesiness today and still be taken seriously, but for the time period, it works, and it’s funny.

Todd:  Arnie did that all the time. Oh, yeah. Stalone. Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Craig:  It was

Todd:  it was all part and parcel of that. And that guy that he says that to, twists his watch or something and immediately vanishes. And that’s an interesting reveal at that point that these guys can actually disappear, and that comes into play later as well. Right. So then after that encounter in the bank, he lives out. Oh, there’s also like a little flying saucer thing

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  That comes in. It’s like a 19 fifties looking flying saucer. It’s just like

Craig:  a little orb with, like, a little arm that’s like a camera, I guess, that comes out. Yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. Like, 2 big metal plates kinda stuck together, you know, front of Like an Ed Wood thing. Yeah. Yeah. That was an interesting choice. It looked really good in the black and white. Yeah. You know, it looks like it fit completely.

Craig:  Right. Right. But but again, that was something that I didn’t really understand. Like, are those things invisible Yeah. To everybody else? Same here. Who cares?

Todd:  That didn’t make any sense to me. But who cares?

Craig:  You know? Yeah. It’s I guess it’s establishing, you know, they’ve got this advanced technology that we don’t know about, and they’re using it.

Todd:  Well, and also he shoots it and it bursts into a bunch of metal pieces and then it cuts back to him and, like, one little metal thing falls to the ground. Like the budget of this movie really kind of shows at times. So he runs along and, ends up in a parking garage, and, there’s a woman who’s trying to get into her car, and he can see that she’s not an alien, so he essentially kidnaps her or tries to use her as a means of escape.

Craig:  Right. And this this woman is Meg Foster, who I don’t know from a lot of things, but she has such a unique look. Oh my gosh. And I know that she did a lot of TV work, in the eighties, maybe in the nineties too. I I haven’t seen it, but I know that she was in, Rob Zombie’s Lords of Salem. But if you know who she is, you’ll picture her face immediately, because she’s got these piercing blue eyes. Almost scary. Unnaturally blue.  Yeah. And and these, you know, this is her natural eye color. I would almost wonder if she has vision problems. They’re so light. It seems like she wouldn’t be able to be out in the sun for very long. But she’s very striking, and and very memorable. And so he takes her, and and, basically, you know, he just needs to get out of there. The cops are around, and so he just says drive.  And, eventually, you know, he says, take me back to your place. She doesn’t want to, but what choice does she have? And so they go back to, her place. And he tries to explain to her what’s going on, but, of course, she doesn’t believe him. I always thought this was funny, though, you know, because he’s got those glasses, and he says, here. Put them on. And she says, well, even if I don’t see what you see, I’m going to see it. In other words I’m gonna lie. Right.  You’re in charge. I’m gonna go along with whatever you go along with. In my mind, I’m thinking, alright. Just put him on anyway. Yeah. Alright?

Todd:  He’ll see that she sees. He knows that she’s not lying. Right. Yeah. It’s the silliest. That that is another weak point in this movie. Some of the plotting is a little strange. Yeah.  Yeah. So she doesn’t put them on. He doesn’t give them to her. He says fine and he just gives up. And it’s like he’s nodding off, and she starts to walk away. He’s like, don’t you mess with me. And she says, oh, I wanna get a drink. And then he starts to have conversation with her and asks her what she who what her name is, and her name is Holly, and what does she do? Oh, she works for cable channel 54 is the problem.

Craig:  Which we know is the is the studio that the aliens broadcast out of. Yep. So right away, I’m like, oh, come on. This lady’s gotta do more than than she’s letting on.

Todd:  And also, you know, it’s another one of those movie things where, oh, he happened to stumble upon the one woman. You know? Oh, right. Exactly. Exactly. So he gets excited, and he runs toward the television, and there’s a fantastic shot. Mhmm. It’s very Hitchcockian in a way. Of it’s completely overhead.  As he reaches for the TV, she swings around and knocks him over the head with a bottle or something. Yeah.

Craig:  Like a liquor bottle.

Todd:  And pushes him out the window, all in just one smooth moment. Mhmm. Boy, is that shocking.

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, it was. I had forgotten about that. And it’s really fast, and it’s this big plate glass window, and, you know, he he flies out of it and then rolls down the hill. It’s a it’s a cool action sequence.

Todd:  It’s brilliant, from a filmmaking standpoint. And John Carpenter’s always been pretty good at staging action. No. He’s without his glasses now, and, you can see he’s constantly under threat from the cops. He’s always looking overhead. There is always a police helicopter on the side.

Craig:  They’ve got a picture of him on, you know, every TV screen.

Todd:  Yeah. An inexplicable picture, like where did they get this picture from? Because Because it’s not like it came off a security camera or

Craig:  anything. No. And it’s clearly an old picture because he has much shorter hair.

Todd:  It’s funny. It’s goofy, but he is more or less able to wander around the streets when he needs to without anybody recognizing him or anybody bothering him. So in that sense, the tension in the movie dissipates a little bit when you realize that when it’s convenient for the film, he can just wander around, Whereas when it’s not convenient or we need to introduce a chase scene or something, suddenly the cops are everywhere or everybody knows who he is and besets upon him.

Craig:  Yeah. And that would be a criticism that I have of the movie. You know, it really takes a while to get rolling. And then even when it gets rolling, when the aliens are revealed, it’s not real fast paced. I mean some some fun action stuff will happen. But then you’ll have a good stretch where it’s just walking around and looking around and whatnot. First, he goes back to the construction site, and he’s trying to, I think, hook back up with Frank. But Frank’s like, you know, I don’t want anything to do with you.  You know? You’re a wanted man or whatever. Get get out of here. And so he leaves, and he goes back to where he left the, the sun the box of sunglasses he had left it in, the bottom of this trash can. And he goes

Todd:  This was the dumbest idea.

Craig:  Oh, I know. Well, at that point, he didn’t know what they were, but I and and who knows? I mean, it’s it’s not within the realm of reality, but I’m thinking if if I realize what those sunglasses did, one of my first thoughts would be, I’m gonna go back and get the

Todd:  other one. Yeah. Right? Like, immediately. Right.

Craig:  But I guess it doesn’t cross his mind. So he goes back, and and the garbage has just been picked up, and the truck is still there. So he kind of sneakily opens the back of of the truck and rifles through and finds the box. And it looks like there’s still a

Todd:  couple of pairs in there. Yeah. You know, this is almost an unnecessary scene. It is. Isn’t it? Yeah. The outcome is the same. Right. He’s never in any peril.  It’s not like the guys, running the truck find him doing whatever he’s doing. He just goes in, oh, okay, there are the glasses after all, and it gets dumped out on the street.

Craig:  And that’s the thing. Like, I feel like they were going for a comic moment with him getting dumped out of the dump truck onto the street that it really wasn’t that funny. No.  I mean,  it just didn’t seem necessary at all.

Todd:  And it’s the like I said to Craig as we were watching this, this is the cleanest garbage

Craig:  I’ve ever seen

Todd:  in my life. It’s just all glass is used. Papers. Yeah. You know? Nothing dirty about it. No.

Craig:  But, anyway, he gets the glasses back, and then from behind And and he’s, you know, he is kinda talking like a crazy person. They’re all around. They’re controlling us. We’re asleep. You know? Somebody was shouting that at me in an hour away. I I probably wouldn’t be real quick to wanna buddy up with them either. Hey. You’ve probably had that

Todd:  shout out at 2 and a half.

Craig:  Oh, shoot. Yeah. I mean, every once in a while. But, but Frank doesn’t wanna

Todd:  put the glasses on. And then so, really, the biggest one of the biggest action pieces of the movie is our 2 protagonists beating the crap out of each other. Nada wants Frank to put on

Craig:  the glasses, he won’t. And he says something like, well you’ve got 2 choices, you can put on the glasses or you can start eating that trash can. And Frank’s like, yeah I don’t think so. And so then they just start beating the crap out of each other and it’s this huge fight scene. And I read that, initially this fight was supposed to last 20 seconds, but Roddy Piper and Keith David got together on their own and choreographed this huge fight. And they they really except for the face shots and the groin shots, they weren’t even pulling any punches. No.  You know,  they were really going at it. And it’s it’s a good fight. It’s a tough fight. I mean, these are 2 big guys.

Todd:  Strong and strong sports. Yeah.

Craig:  And, you know, when it first starts, Frank is, like, punching, Nada in the chest. It just looks like he’s punching a brick wall. Like Yeah. Like he doesn’t like he doesn’t yield at all. And of course, it goes on for over 5 minutes and biting in, they are in bad shape. I mean, they’re they’re half dead it seems like.

Todd:  You know, and a lot of this movie is comedy. You know, it’s a tongue in cheek kind of thing as a as a satire would sort of go. And this does get to comical proportions, intentionally comical proportions. What I really like about this fight scene though is that you’re not seeing fancy martial arts.

Craig:  No. No.

Todd:  You know? Just street fighting. And you’re not seeing them take a really, really bad hit and then get up right away Right. To return the favor. This is what it seems like it would be like if these 2 guys were actually fighting. Yeah.

Craig:  Well, I

Todd:  mean Moments of of of rest where they’re both kind of on the ground and then one kind of gets up and it paces out at a realistic Yeah.

Craig:  I mean, there’s a there’s a couple of wrestling moves thrown in like some body strength.

Todd:  Oh, it’s not all realistic. Totally. Right.

Craig:  But but it’s it’s it’s a it’s a it’s a I I know exactly what you’re saying. Yeah. I mean, they’ll take a big hit, and then they’ll just, you know, almost go unconscious, for a minute and it takes them a while to recuperate, but then they just get back up and get right back into it. I’m like, dang. I know. You guys are in for a punishment, I guess.

Todd:  And what’s so fun about it too is Frank’s absolute refusal to put those glasses on because now it’s gotten, like, personal. Right. Now that you’re beating me up over it, there’s absolutely no way I’m gonna put these glasses on. So he throws them away and he puts them on. Anyway, the way it ends up is that, Nada ends up getting the better of Frank. Frank’s on the ground and he just just shoves the glasses on his face, lifts him up, and points him toward the street where there happened to be now 2 people walking by, where I guess there weren’t before during the preceding 5 minutes who happened to be aliens, and they look at their watches and talk, and suddenly, Frank’s a believer.

Craig:  Yeah. And another one of those orbs shows up, and he sees that. And so yeah. So now they’re friends again. And that was something else that I liked about that fight. It was it was almost like they weren’t apologetic in how rough they were being on one another, but they’re it was almost, like, chivalrous. Like like they would help one another up, like they

Todd:  would apologize. Oh, sorry. Like that like we’re not enemies. Just do what I want you to do. Yeah. Yeah. We don’t hate each other’s guts. Right.  Right. We’re just trying to, win. Win. Yeah. Win the argument with force.

Craig:  So then they go off together and they get a hotel room, and it’s it’s a funny shot of them walking in, and they’re both just I mean, the the makeup is pretty good. They are both just busted up. Roddy Piper’s face

Todd:  is all swollen. They’ve got cuts everywhere. I like that they walk up to the counter of this hotel, which is not the the best part of town, clearly. And they look like hell, and they they’re standing in front of this guy, and you expect this comical other shot of the hotel just, like, staring at the

Craig:  Great.

Todd:  Like, what? Who are you? But it’s not that. He just hands them the pan. Like like like, he sees this every day, all day long. This is nothing unusual. Yeah.

Craig:  It was funny. I don’t know if we were supposed to know that time passed. It seemed like it seemed like the next day, then they were just fine. You know, they’re limping and stuff. They’re all beat up that night, and then the next day is, like, all their wounds are healed. They’re Yeah. Very fast healers. Not to mention that, Nada had, you know, been thrown out of a building and rolled down this huge hill.  But he he’s a he’s a quick healer apparently.

Todd:  Well, this I know for me at least, this is where the movie was starting to slow down again. It’s when they’re in the hotel room and they’re chatting with each other. They introduce an element to this where the longer they wear these glasses, the more painful it is. It’s like it gives them headaches. I guess it’s it’s one of those the truth hurts, you

Craig:  know. Yeah.

Todd:  I think back to, I think back to Nathaniel Hawthorne and Young Goodman Brown where the truth cuts, you know, like blades of grass through their feet, and this is the sense that I think John Carpenter’s trying to introduce in here. So it seems like maybe they are in there for a little while doing some recovery time because it’s required not just from their injuries, but, you know, to absorb what is happening and what they can, you know, what they what could they can do about it.

Craig:  Yeah. Well and and there’s you know, I I don’t know if they were padding for time or if they were trying to build character or what, but, you know, Roddy Piper, goes off on this story that about his dad and how his dad had been abusive, and it Todd doesn’t really seem to have any true relevance. I you know, I don’t know if maybe there was more of that that ended up getting cut. I don’t think so because I think that, John Carpenter had final cut. Yeah. But it just kinda comes out of left field and

Todd:  And it doesn’t go anywhere. No. That’s another thing that I I just rolled my eyes at. I thought, man, it seemed like he was going for that man from nowhere trope.

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  Yet he lets, you know, he tells enough of his backstory throughout the movie, but not enough of it that it’s interesting or compelling or really sheds any more light onto him. I thought it was a weakness. Maybe padding for time.

Craig:  Yeah. I don’t know.

Todd:  But yeah. Or or for him to give another one liner.

Craig:  Yeah. Right. Because he says something like what does he say?

Todd:  He talks about the the story’s bizarre. It’s about his dad when he was 13 kinda holding a razor blade up against him, and I guess slashing his throat or cutting him with it or something? It was weird. It was ambiguous. It’s like he said that

Craig:  he put the razor blade up to his neck and and and, Nada begged him not to, but then it said he sawed back and forth like he was sawing down a tree. I don’t know if it was just threatening or if he was really cutting. I don’t know. It was unclear. But it culminates in

Clip:  Gon’ be how Todd pay because I ain’t daddy’s little boy no more.

Craig:  Okay.

Todd:  It’s a silly line, but and it’s kinda funny, but it almost seemed like he had that line first and he had to figure out a way

Craig:  to work it out. Yeah. Maybe.

Todd:  What I really liked was the line that came shortly before that when they were done with their fight, and, Frank sees for the first time. And, Nada Nada turns to him and says, life’s a bitch, and she’s back in heat.

Craig:  Yeah. That was a good one. I liked that one. That one made me laugh.

Todd:  Oh, gosh. That’s one that shoulda lasted through the ages, and I don’t really hear anybody

Craig:  say that. Well, they they don’t really have a plan. They decide they need to hook back up with these rebels. You know, they say that we’re you know, whoever made these glasses, we’ve gotta find them and, you know, if there are any left. You know, they don’t even know because the place got raided or whatever. And then very conveniently, the guy the rebels find them. Right. Gil Gilbert, the the leader of the rebels, just happens to stumble upon them and and brings them, in and says we’re having this meeting tonight, and he gives them the address and whatnot.

Todd:  Too much convenience. LA is a very large, very popular city. Right. This is all

Craig:  I I don’t know. You mean Yeah. It is, but you just roll.

Todd:  You gotta go whatever you have to.

Craig:  You gotta keep the plot moving somehow. You know? No. It it get awfully boring if they had to spend the next 20 minutes looking for these people. So we, they hook them back up, and they go to this meeting. It’s at night. It’s like a back alley. And there’s all these people, you know, we recognize from the shanty Todd, and they are gathering weapons. And they’ve also got now contact lenses so that, you don’t have to wear the sunglasses anymore.  And apparently, the contact lenses don’t cause that same kind of pain. You know, they’ve tweaked them or something so that, they can wear them all the time. Yeah. And, you know, not a lot goes down except for that, oh, Holly, The woman that Nada had gotten a ride with just, like, magically appears there out of nowhere, and it seems like she’s joining the resistance.

Todd:  I guess the implication is that because the glasses were left in her apartment, she she looked through them and

Craig:  Right.  Exactly. Yeah. We saw that. You know, after he fell out of the window, she looked down and saw his glasses in in the broken glass. And so we assume that and that’s what she said. She’s like, I’m sorry. I didn’t know. I feel really bad.  And then just, you know, they’ve been there maybe 5 minutes. And all of a sudden, one whole wall just blows out and in comes this huge group of, like, military police. It’s so dramatic. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And they just start tearing everybody down with, like, machine guns. And again, it’s funny because everybody else except for the people that we know can’t get killed, get killed. That’s right.  You know, all these nice resistance people, but meanwhile, Nada and Frank and, Holly, they’re right in the middle of it, but they’re they’re fine.

Todd:  You know, it’s funny because when they came to that place, there was a guard outside who let them in. Mhmm. I don’t Todd they have guards around the back? I don’t know. Did these people have ways to communicate and let folks know, hey, there are like 15 tanks coming and a whole you know, about 30 people with machine guns who are about ready to break the wall down. You might want to get out. Right. It’s a very poorly organized resistance movement. Right.  For as much technology as they have. Yeah.

Craig:  I don’t know I don’t know how they’re making these glasses and stuff, but

Todd:  But but that is the moment, and it’s this moment in all the movies where we learn a little bit more about the aliens, and that’s where we learn about the atmosphere, and we hear that, yeah, that they’re everywhere, and they’re using the television sets to transmit, and that they’re searching for that one spot where they’re transmitting from.

Craig:  Right, because that would make perfect sense, that they would transmit just from one location all around  the world. It’s all

Todd:  satellite that goes everywhere. Right. Right, and thankfully that location happens to be in LA. Right, right. And wouldn’t you know it, the same channel that, was her Right. Was Holly works at. The

Craig:  guys get separated from her. Oh, but they give them watches as well. Oh, right. Right. And they say they’re, you know, they’re they’re for communication. You can listen in on their communications, and they can do this disappearing trick. We haven’t figured it out yet, but we’re we’re working on it. Yeah.  So Nada and Frank take out a bunch of people, but then they kinda end up getting cornered in this back alley. And Frank’s messing around with the watch trying to figure out what it’ll do, and it kinda, like, shorts out or something, and he tosses it behind him. And the watch, like, there’s a big flash, and this big hole appears in the ground. And the some voice says, your watch has malfunctioned. This portal will close 10 seconds.

Todd:  And, It’s like an emergency portal. It keeps your watch malfunctions. Right. It’s weird. But this whole scene is so goofball where they’re running down the alley and these people are shooting at them, and you’ve got people on the roof shooting down. I mean, they’re in the position of weakness here. Right. Where they are sitting ducks in this trench, in this alley running down.  There are people up above them. There are people on the fire escapes. There are people running down. And they’re shooting at them and nothing hits them. But, but but Nada’s got like an m 16 or something, and he just just sprays.

Craig:  He doesn’t even aim.

Todd:  He just kinda, like, holds it down and just shoots it around. And it happens to to hit everybody. Yeah. It’s so Rambo. I know. It’s funny.

Craig:  So they go down in the portal, and I again, I don’t really understand. Like, I didn’t understand if it, like, just opened a hole, and then they ended up down right underneath where they were, or  if it was I

Todd:  don’t think so. I I think it was definitely, like, a dimensional thing where they were going somewhere else on earth, obviously, but I felt like maybe always the portals of or when people use the watch, it gets them to that underground area. Right. That’s how I felt anyway. Cause there were those tubes. It looks like big concrete tunnels that just go on as far and intersect each other, but there also seem to be these tubes that came down. You you know what I mean?

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. Like, do what they call, like, pneumatic tubes or whatever. You know? Yeah. I don’t know.

Todd:  And signs and an alien language kind of pointing them to from areas.

Craig:  But I don’t know.

Todd:  You’d think these aliens would get something a little more high class than,

Craig:  yeah. It was the late eighties. We were behind the times. So they get down there, and they’re walking around. And, of course, you know, there’s guards and stuff. I thought it was funny. The guards have, like, these communicators, and it would they were totally the, how like, the things The e meter.

Todd:  Yeah. For Ghostbusters. I mean,

Craig:  I I thought I was, like, those look awfully familiar. And then I looked it up after him, like, yep. That’s that’s exactly what it was.

Todd:  You know, those p k e meters show up in a lot of movies. And it is so funny because the Ghostbusters, what was that? 80 5, 86. Maybe. I mean, that is such an iconic movie, and it was such a huge hit when it came up. And that PKE meter was so featured in that movie that I cannot believe that that got used in so many films thereafter as something else.

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, it’s it’s funny.

Todd:  It’s transparently Yeah. The same thing.

Craig:  It takes you

Todd:  out of it a little bit, actually.

Craig:  A little bit, but it’s also silly. It is silly, but it’s also kind of fun. You know, like, ah, it’s that. You know? It’s like a little Easter egg.

Todd:  But you know what’s funny is is that they have these watches they can communicate on. Why are they using this PKE meter to communicate? You know? Like the guards aren’t good enough for watches.

Craig:  I guess. So we don’t really know where they are, but it seems like this compound, and and they hear, like, something. And so they go walking, and they get into, like, this big banquet hall or, like, a ballroom or something where there’s all these rich people sitting at tables, and there’s a guy up talking up front.

Clip:  Our projections show that by the year 2025, not only America, but the entire planet will be under the protection and the dominion of this power alliance. The gains have been substantial, both for ourselves and for you, the human power elite. You have given us entree to the resources we need in our ongoing quest for multidimensional expansion. And in return, the per capita income of each of you here tonight has grown, and this year alone, by an average 39%.

Todd:  They’re the upper 1% right here.

Craig:  Right. Exactly. And again, just, you know, silliness. These 2 guys who they’ve been chasing after the whole movie Just wander in. Yeah. And and they’re just you know, everybody else is dressed to the nines, like, in tuxes and gowns, and they walk in in their jeans and flannel shirts, and nobody bats an eye. Yeah. Nobody’s gonna be

Todd:  paying attention.

Craig:  Yeah. And from behind them, somebody taps him on the shoulder, and it’s this guy, this, drifter guy who we didn’t mention before. He was somebody who was featured kind of prominently in the, the shantytown.  Yep.  And this again, I don’t know. This actor’s name, I wrote it down because I didn’t know it. George Buck Flower.

Todd:  Yes.

Craig:  I recognized him right away, and knew that I had seen him in a bunch of movies. Oh, yeah. He it seems like he kinda always plays the same character.

Todd:  He does. He’s always a bum, or he’s a country folk person, or or hillbilly, or, something like that.

Craig:  Yeah. I I looked him up, and he was in Back to the Future, and I remembered that. Like, he’s like the bum on the street, like, when the car disappears, I think. Right? And then, I he was also in Wish Master, which is a pretty terrible movie, but I I kind of a guilty pleasure  Oh, yeah.  For me. He was a bum in that movie too. Really recognizable.

Todd:  Oh, man. He used to be, honestly, also in a bunch of weird exploitation drive in type fare back from the fifties and the sixties.

Craig:  Oh, yeah. He’s got tons of credits.

Todd:  Up everywhere. He’d he’d be the actor I’d wanna be. Yeah. Oh, how fun. Yeah. Right? Just, you need a bum? I’m I’m your bum.

Craig:  Well, he he shows up, but he’s not a bum anymore. He’s in a suit, and he’s got, you know, he’s got his hair all coiffed and whatnot. And he says, hey, boys. And he’s got that kind of, you know, that gravelly voice too. He’s like, I didn’t know they recruited you too. And He just assumes. Right. And they’re like, yeah.  Wanna show us around? Sure. And so he takes them all around this compound and shows them all this stuff.

Todd:  They don’t recruit the brightest humans for this apparently. No. No. You know, I thought this was an interesting moment because he got recruited. A lot of the other people got killed. He was the one earlier on in the film who was turn the damn TV off to the next channel. He was the one who really didn’t want to hear anything about the resistance, didn’t want to believe that there was some conspiracy. So I suppose they were setting us up for he would be a natural recruit.  Right. But that’s a little problematic because if he’s the one who doesn’t wanna believe there’s a conspiracy, how do you convince him there is one and how do you then recruit him into it so willingly? Right. But I felt like in this manner, again with that social commentary, maybe in the same sense that there are people who are wrapped up in this conspiracy who don’t even know, who are just trying to get ahead, this is your rags to riches story. Exactly. This explains them all. Right? Right. This explains why somebody can come from nothing and suddenly be really rich. It’s because of the alien.

Craig:  Well, and it makes, oh god, it just makes perfect sense. You know, you you appeal to and politicians are doing it right now. You know, you appeal to the poor, or the downtrodden and say, I can promise you a better life. All you have to do is go along with whatever I say.  Mhmm.  And it makes sense. You know, if you’ve gotten nowhere if you’ve got no further down to go, why not? Why not take a shot at at moving up? Yep. And he kinda says that, you know, when they because he shows them all around. He shows them there’s, like, this teleportation thing, and you can, like, you can see you know, they, like, stand in, like, this, like, light tube thing, and then they get shot out through space to another planet. Andromeda was in there. Yeah. Yeah. Then he takes them back to the to, like, the TV station.

Todd:  You know, I I just love the fact that they’re able to just casually walk. Oh, yeah. Wherever they got teleported to seems to be a huge maze of underground tunnels.

Craig:  Mhmm.

Todd:  But within about 5 minutes, they’ve walked to this banquet hall center. And this guy they find this guy that they knew, and then he just walks them down the hall to where the main airport is.

Craig:  Yeah. Where there are guards posted all over the place, and nobody says anything.

Todd:  And then he just walks him. It’s like the next door down Uh-huh. Is, where the cable Todd station is. And maybe it’s not as big a complex as

Craig:  we thought. Maybe not. But, you know, they the the 2 main guys take out a couple of guards and, what’s his name? The the drifter guy uses his watch and disappears. He’s like, bye bye, boys. And he’s gone. They wanna find where this is being transmitted, and and the Drifter guy told them, oh, yeah. There’s a big satellite on the ceiling and on the roof. Yeah.  But they’re at this cable station 54, and, Nada knows that that’s where Holly works, and he wants to find her. So they’re running through again. They’re killing all the aliens, not killing the people. And, eventually, they find Holly, which I you know? She just doubled. Well, the last, right, the last time that we had seen her is, like, she was escaping from the police or whatever from this resistance thing. And he even says something like, well, if she came here, I would’ve found find her. Like, oh, of course. You know, if I’m running away from the military, well, I’ll just go to work.  I’ll just go back to work. Yeah.

Todd:  Like nothing happened. Right. Well, maybe the implication here is that she got caught up by the police and recruited instead, and they placed her back at work.

Craig:  Well, because because we find out and, again, you know, I think it’s plot holes.

Todd:  Yeah. Oh, big time.

Craig:  They they hook back up with her, and they start running up to the roof. And then just, you know, right as they get to the roof, out of nowhere, she shoots Frank in the head. And then so then not as up, he sees the satellite thing. He’s getting ready to shoot it or whatever, and he says, are you guys clear? And she says, I’m clear. And he turns around, and she has her gun pulled on him. And then the helicopters come up, tell him to drop his gun, and he does. And she says, don’t do this or whatever. Now I kinda suspected that she was in on it, and I really think that she was in on it the whole time.  You think so? I think so. Mhmm. I think she worked for them. I think working there at that TV station, she worked you know, she knew what was going on. She worked for them.

Todd:  So well, that make sense because then she infiltrated the resistance. That’s how they knew where she was. Right.

Craig:  But I wish that we had been given something that we got more of her backstory. You know? What is the deal? You know? Has she been working with them all along? Did they promise but we don’t. We don’t get anything. All we get is he slips another little handgun that he had up his sleeve out, and he shoots her, and she’s dead. Yeah.

Todd:  And that’s it. She’s the only human he kills, I think.

Craig:  Yep. Yep. In the whole movie. And, so then he turns around and shoots the satellite dish or whatever. It blows up. He gets blown away by the people in the helicopters. We presume he’s dead.

Todd:  What’s great though is that there’s that last shot of him getting, you know, laying down on the ground, and he slowly extends a middle finger out. Oh, gosh, yeah. Classic. I love it. So funny. It’s so in character with him. He goes through this whole movie almost like he doesn’t really care about himself. He just wants to solve the problem.  Right. And, you big F you to the aliens. Right. ‘Merica.

Craig:  Yep. And then we get this and this is the scene. I know I’ve seen it on TV recently. It’s it stands out in my head. We get this scene where all of a sudden their masking frequency or whatever disappears, and all the people are seeing them for who they really are. It’s funny, and I think that it’s played for the comedy. You see the people on TV, you know, change, and every you you hear the people in the Craig, like, ah, running away, and the people behind the desk who are the aliens are like, what?

Todd:  What’s wrong?

Craig:  It cuts to a bar where they’re watching the TV, and, people are kinda, like, looking uncomfortably at the aliens around them, like, what is going on? There’s a really funny scene where it shows the TV, and it’s Siskel and Ebert. Yes. And they’re both aliens, and they’re talking about all this violence in film. And, you know, these directors, like John Carpenter and George Romero. They just need to be put a stop Todd. And That was a nice

Todd:  little dig he got in there. Yeah.

Craig:  And the last one. And it was funny because we had gotten all the way through this movie, and I was like, oh, man. This is a late eighties guy’s movie. I can’t believe we haven’t seen any boobs. Oh, yeah. Right. In the last 10 seconds or the last 20 seconds, we get some boobs, and it’s this this girl, you know, writing this guy. And she’s seeing this stuff happened on the news.  And she looks down, and the it’s the alien, and he’s like, what’s wrong, baby?

Todd:  And that’s what it cuts out on, isn’t it? Yep.

Craig:  That’s it. That’s it.  It’s the

Todd:  end. It’s funny. It is funny. You know?

Craig:  I don’t know. As we were watching it, I was thinking I remembered enjoying it more when I was a kid. Now sitting here and talking about it, I I guess I do still like it. You know? It’s it’s got its charm. I really like the issues that it’s tackling, as scary as they may be. It’s interesting how even though maybe the cinematography, the acting haven’t really held up that well, how the issue is still really relevant. And, yeah. I I’m glad we I’m glad we watched it.

Todd:  I am Todd, and I’m glad we revisited it because just like you, I had Todd memories of this film, but then watching it, I thought, man, this is really slow here. Man, this a lot of this makes absolutely no sense. Although I I’m in love with the idea. You know, there people always talk about how a movie turns out when you’re trying to give a message as opposed to trying to tell a story. And I feel like this movie is very illustrative of the perils of trying to make a message movie. Right. You end up writing so much to the theme and to the message and trying to get all these different points in that the story suffers. And as a result, I think the story makes very little sense.  Yeah. You know? And so you end up with plot holes. You end up with characters who are kinda one note. Characters who are kind of silly. It’s a fun, silly movie. Right. But in so it’s enjoyable, but in the same sense, it’s not really effective as a story well told. Right.  I I totally agree. Feel about it.

Craig:  But, you know, it’s almost as though you can tell that the filmmakers found that secondary, so you can almost kinda forgive it a little bit. You know? You you can tell what the purpose was, and I think that they did a pretty good job in fulfilling that purpose. So I’m willing to forgive some of those other flaws. The plot holes and stuff, I don’t care. You know? I’m not coming into this for, like, Dickensian. Right.

Todd:  You know? But to go from the angle you’re you’re talking about, it does really evoke those 19 fifties cheesy sci fi films where they all made a lot of sense. Yeah. And they were all paranoia movies. It was all Todd age cold war stuff and this is in a way kind of a remake of some of those films. Oh, invaders from Mars Yeah. Is really what it is.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  Absolutely. In that sense, it’s poking fun at itself in the same way. Yeah. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. We’re on iTunes or Stitcher. And, we are also on Facebook and your social media. So please leave us a message, give us some kind of comment, let us know on what you thought of the film. Until next week, I’m Todd and I’m Craig with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Deadly Friend is the third Wes Craven film we’ve reviewed this year in the wake of his death. Thanks to studio interference, we may never know what potential this uneven film might have had in its original incarnation.

Deadly Friend (1986)

Episode 34, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Welcome to another edition of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: I’m Craig. 

Todd: And, uh, today we’re starting off with the third of our Wes Craven films. Well, we started out with, uh, 

Craig: The People Under the Stairs.  

Todd: Yep, and then we went to Nightmare on Elm Street, the original. The original. The original. Today we’ve decided to try something that’s probably a little less well known of his oeuvre.

Maybe for good reason. Maybe. Deadly Friend. You know, I came into this knowing that it was not critically claimed. But not wanting, hoping I wouldn’t pile on it. I sort of have a feeling we might end up piling on it, though. I don’t know. What are your initial thoughts after seeing it for the first time?

Craig: Well, I was kind of excited coming into it, too. Um, I really, I don’t know how I missed this in the first place. You know, I watch as many horror films as I can get my hand on. I’m a big fan of Cravens and somehow this one just slipped through the cracks for me. I’m a Christy Swanson fan from way back when so I was excited to get a chance to see it now that we’ve seen it Uh, my feelings are a little bit mixed really.

What do you think? I tell 

Todd: ya, um, well, yeah, I, I, now knowing a little bit of the backstory of the film, I know that this is not exactly the film that Craven had intended to do. He originally wanted to do something that would sort of prove that he’s not a one trick horror pony. Uh, he did it. Uh, this movie was shown to test audiences.

Um, apparently, according to him and the producer and the original writer, was a little more of a PG sort of film that was a little sweet, a little sad. Um, it’s 

Craig: Frankenstein movie, right? And, you know, PG may be pushing PG 13, but, uh, certainly not going for standard horror. And I think that when test audience saw what Craven originally did with it, they were let down just because of their expectations.

You know, this came on the heels of the great success of Nightmare on Elm Street from 1984. This, this film came out in 1986, uh, and I think it was just a matter of expectations. They weren’t expecting a PG or a PG 13 Teen Sci-Fi. Almost kind of after school special kind of thing. Far more, you know, uh, I, I read that, uh, he was shooting more for the tone of, uh, films like Real Genius.

Um, or, uh, The Goonies, or he, he, uh, referenced Starman as one of, uh, his inspirations. Uh, you know, when I watched it, I was 

Todd: thinking a little bit of Explorers. Did you ever see Explorers? Yeah, yeah. Where the kid takes technology This is like super genius kid, goes on some kind, you know, creates something, um, in Explorer’s case, they create that ship, which they go and then, you know, with his friends and they travel and kind of have these little adventures.

This was a little like that. You have your super 

Craig: genius kid. Yes, yeah, exactly. Well, maybe we should give a little bit of the story. I mean, it’s a, it’s a Frankenstein movie, uh, overall. But we, we open up with, uh, this, this kid, Paul, who is 15, I’m guessing, because he says later in the film that he’s never learned to drive.

Right. But he is a pretty, uh, exceptional 15 year old. He’s apparently a, uh, a visiting professor, uh, at Polytech, where he is lecturing on both, uh, computer engineering and neuroscience. And working on computers and cadavers. I mean, this is a pretty impressive 

Todd: kid. And he comes with his own robot. Moves into the neighborhood with this.

Sentient robot that he has put together and programmed himself, which everybody sort of treats like it’s no big deal. 

Craig: Yeah, like it’s his little brother who maybe is a little bit off or something, I don’t know. Well, you have this 

Todd: robot that, you know, just kind of thinks on its own and wanders around aimlessly and you didn’t really program and it’s learning and it’s talking and stuff.

Oh, okay, come along. Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah, totally, but you know. What’s more interesting is, uh, the day to day life of a 

Craig: neuroscientist child. Exactly, and you’ve got this robot, and of course at first the robot seems, uh, relatively innocuous, you know, nothing to be afraid of. He’s cute, he’s short, you know, he’s by today’s standards the technology is.

Uh, I, I think at the time, you know, they were pretty impressed with what they had done with the, the technology for this robot. But, by our standards, a little cutesy, a little, uh, Johnny Five meets Wally. Yeah, 

Todd: yeah, very, um, um, short circuit in that way. Yeah. Yeah. 

Craig: So he moves into the neighborhood and, uh, we get some exposition where he meets first, uh, this bumbling kid who’s going to become kind of his, uh, buddy in this little buddy adventure of sorts.

And And, uh, then the girl next door, the very lovely Christy Swanson, 16 years old. One of her first, uh, roles, wasn’t it? First, well, first full length film, I believe. And then, of course, she went on to be pretty successful in the 80s and 90s with, uh, Buffy the Vampire Slayer is her big, uh, breakthrough. But, here she’s very fresh faced, very young, very pretty.

You know, as a, as a young boy of the 80s, I remember Kirstie Swanson very fondly. Uh, and, and she’s kind of the maiden next door who is kind of tough and cool, but you can tell right from the beginning that, uh, there’s a little bit of a dark side, uh, on the other side of the street. That’s 

Todd: right, um, there, she’s basically right next door to him, um, in the new house, and, uh, the minute she meets him, pretty much, she can’t stay long.

Because pretty soon her dad pokes his head out the door and looks at them and gives them that look and you can tell just by looking at the dad their problems here. Oh, and the bruise on her arm. Yeah, right. Which is one of the first things that, um, that Paul, the kid. Exactly. 

Craig: So, then the, the story is, is relatively tame for a while, you know.

It’s, uh, this kid kind of getting used to his new environment. He’s teaching classes at this university. He’s, you know, kind of spending a little bit of time with, uh, this new girl. Her name is Sam, Samantha. And then, we start to see that there may be a little bit more to B. B. the robot. Uh, we haven’t said his name yet, I don’t think.

Uh, there, There may be something a little bit, uh, unpredictable about BB. 

Todd: That’s right. Well, they first have a run in, uh, with a It’s kind of like the neighborhood bully. Yes, the neighborhood biker gang. The Danny Zuko of, uh, Zuko of the film Carl, right? Yeah, who, 

Craig: you know, who look like they’re probably in their mid thirties, but are still high school bullies on this set.

Suburban Avenue. They 

Todd: come up and he for just sort of sort of no reason at all just that your typical neighborhood really is harassing him. What the hell is this? 

Craig: Hey, come here. Look at this thing. Don’t do that. Who’s gonna stop?

Hey, does anybody got a can opener? Hey! Don’t! Get out of my face!

Careful! It’ll hurt you! Ooh, this garbage 

Todd: can! Robot grabs him by the nuts and Lifts him up in the air and has him call his guys off, and so 

Craig: So it’s established pretty early on that, uh, BB can be a badass if BB needs to be. 

Todd: BB can defend himself. Right. As long as, you know, you move relatively slowly. You’re kind of within BB’s arm’s reach.

You get up against his face, you know, yeah, you got a problem. You got a problem. 

Craig: So, so we’re introduced to that. We’re also introduced to, uh, the old witch across the street, um Zelda. Zelda. It’s Elvira, wasn’t it? Elvira, yeah, you’re right. Elvira, uh, both excellent names. Played by, uh, the incomparable Ian Ramsey.

Oh 

Todd: my gosh. From, uh, Throw Mama From the Tra Don’t Throw Mama From the Train. 

Craig: And, uh, The Goonies. Everybody remembers 

Todd: her from The Goonies. Oh my gosh. Mama Fratelli, and who doesn’t love her? I, I honestly, the moment she came to the door, I was just like, Oh, cool. Get to see 

Craig: more of her. Yeah. I absolutely love her.

Uh, she’s got, you know, that, that husky voice, she’s not, uh, a very, uh, domineering figure just in stature. But when she talks, she’s got this presence where, you know, she’s, she’s a bitch and you don’t wanna, you don’t wanna cross her. And so she’s the mean old lady across the street. 

Todd: Um, right. And then it’s, uh, Halloween time, I think, and they’re trick or treating.

Well, no, I guess it establishes because her, um, his friend Tom has a paper route. Yeah. And he tosses the paper over and she immediately, um, jumps out and takes offense to the fact that they’re out in front of her door. 

Craig: Right, and waves their, her shotgun, her double barreled shotgun, at them from her porch, as, you know, suburbanites tend to do, and kids get up on their lawn or whatever.

Yeah. Um, yeah. Chases them off. Yeah, chases them off. Uh, and, and from there, We kind of get into the trouble of the film. Uh, Sam comes over to Paul’s house. Paul lives with his, his mother. The father’s not in the picture, apparently. We don’t hear much about him, if anything. Yeah. Sam comes over for, uh, Thanksgiving dinner, I believe.

And when she goes home, she finds her father awake and drunk, waiting for her. And things kind of go downhill 

Todd: from there. That’s right. She goes upstairs. He’s angry that she was gone, and he didn’t know. Um, I think, what is it? It’s even Thanksgiving Day, was that right? Yeah. She just finished having Thanksgiving with her surrogate family, who they don’t know next door.

He pushes her down the stairs, and uh, She, uh, doesn’t wake up from that. She basically is in a coma. A brain death, I guess, 

Craig: was the assumption, man. Right. And here is, uh, where the Frankenstein conceit comes in. Paul doesn’t accept the doctor’s suggestion that there’s absolutely nothing that can be done. Um, being a neuroscientist and, uh, engineer himself, he decides that, uh, maybe there is something that he can do.

So he enlists his friend Tom, who is a very unwilling participant, to And they go to, uh, the morgue, where the plant, well, uh, they don’t know yet that her life support has been turned off prematurely. Uh, at first they think they’re gonna be able to get to her while she’s still alive, but that’s not the case.

And so, when that part of the plan is foiled, uh, instead what they decide to do is, Kind of casually steal 

her 

Todd: body. Oh, and we forgot an important point is that, uh, during Halloween, before Sam died, there was an altercation where they were playing basketball. A basketball went across the street onto the porch of, uh, Elvira.

She came out, they hid and the robot controls the robot with the device, like a remote control. He shuts the robot off cause he doesn’t want the robot involved. The robot sort of comes to life on its own and approaches Zelda with her shotgun. She destroys 

Craig: it, right? And that is an important plot point and and it’s a very dramatic If you want to call it that maybe melodramatic be more fair a very uh dramatic scene where you know The friend tom is holding paul back while B.

B. gets, gets blown away. I think he gets shot three times from this shotgun. 

Todd: He just casually reloads. Starts shooting some more. 

Craig: And he’s demolished. And the reason that’s important, I’m glad you corrected me, is because, uh, Paul’s plan is to use the microchip from the remains of B. B. and put it into Sam’s brain, uh, and hopefully, uh, You know, he’s the scientist.

I don’t know science, but apparently, you know, that could work, so uh, So they give it a go. 

Todd: And it works, uh, to a certain extent. He brings him in, I know, it was just hilarious. You know, well you always have to suspend disbelief. Absolutely, yeah. This film kind of pushed it to the edges as far as suspending disbelief.

Even for the 80s. 

Craig: Yeah, I mean, and the funny thing is, you know, I can’t tell how much Craven was going for tongue in cheek. I have to think that he was sometimes because there are laugh out loud funny parts in this movie. But then there are some parts where, you know, apparently the procedure for Inserting a, uh, microchip into somebody’s brain is just to kind of squish it in.

Like, 

Todd: just push it, you know. He has these probes jutting out from it, and he just, you know, I guess it’s just the right area of the brain, and they’re all the right length, they’re just gonna attach to the right spots. Yeah, and it 

Craig: slides in, he says, like, perfect. That’s 

Todd: right, it’s like, it’s like putting a spark plug in your car or something, you just slide it in and snap it in place.

Craig: Uh, and it, it, it works, you know, she doesn’t, uh, spring right to life, she’s not the Sam that we knew before. But she does, uh, show some movement and so, uh, they, uh, pack her back up in the van in broad daylight, it seemed, wasn’t it? It was very bright outdoors, I don’t know. But then they, you know. There 

Todd: are really very few people in this 

Craig: town.

Yeah, it’s a very sleepy cul de sac. Um, and they put her, uh, in the shed until they can figure out, uh, what, uh, to do with her. But apparently, as, as a little bit of time goes by, the chip does its work and, uh, she starts to reanimate and then she becomes a deadly friend. That’s 

Todd: right, that’s where the deadly part comes in.

It’s interesting because that’s, that whole sequence where he’s starting to coax her to life. Was when the movie started to get a little more interesting for me. That was where, for me anyway, it was a little more realistic. Like, oh, she didn’t just spring to life. He had to sort of teach her to sit up. And, you know, her eyes were open, but she didn’t say anything.

Uh, you could kind of tell that the old robot was kind of laying in there. It was definitely not her. She was definitely not recognizing him as his friend. 

Craig: Yeah. And, you know, that was, it’s funny that you say that that’s kind of where it took a turn for the better for you. Because for me, up until that point, I had thought it had kind of an innocent, kind of sweet charm, you know, you had this cute little budding romance between Sam and Paul.

The tone, you know, there was a dark side to it with the abuse with Sam’s father and whatnot, but, you know, she had kind of found this new surrogate family, she was budding this relationship with this new guy, and it was kind of sweet, and then all of a sudden, she dies, tragically, and, uh, he tries to bring her back, and, and the All the time going on in my mind was, it’s not her.

He keeps, he keeps talking to, he keeps calling her Sam. But even he said from the beginning, he was putting BB’s brain in her brain. And when she comes back, with some modifications. So when she does wake up, she’s got this great robot, uh, move thing going on. Yeah, 

Todd: she really does a good job of the physicality of BB.

Craig: I read that she actually says, That was something that they really wanted to get down. Now, when I read that, I was expecting, you know, some masterful performance here. I don’t know if that’s exactly what we got. Uh, you know, it looked a little bit like, you know, me on the dance floor after a few too many trying to do the robot sometimes.

Um, but, uh, you know, she made the effort, uh, and that was good. And there was clearly a distinction between, uh, Her sweet character from the beginning, uh, and then after she passed away and, and, uh, the robot mind kind 

Todd: of took over. That’s true. Um, and then, you know, and I guess I wasn’t really saying that, uh, the movie got interesting.

I mean, well, I guess what I was saying was, I agree with you that it started out real sweet. It had that really nice tone. It definitely, the tone shifted. Yeah. It got really ridiculous, I think. And then at that point where, you know, he was kind of teaching her to move and, and all that, that suddenly. For me, anyway, oh, maybe we’re getting, things are slowing down again, you know, was kind of how it felt for me.

There’s a lot of weird holes in this plot. Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, well, aside from the fact that it doesn’t make a lot of sense, even when you sort of just suspend your disbelief and say, okay, yes, genius kid, okay, he can plug this brain in here, whatever. There’s also sort of a lack of care and concern from the adults around that, I’m thinking particularly the sequence where the mother and, uh, and, uh, Paul has his friend over, um, and it’s before they’re gonna pull the plug on the girl, and they know that this is gonna happen at nine o’clock, or ten o’clock at least.

And they’re not there at the hospital. You 

Craig: look tired. Maybe you should just go to bed. No. I’m wide awake.

I keep thinking about the hospital. Thinking we should be there. What could we do? Just sit? Well, I know, but

it just feels so strange. 

Todd: Of course, They’ve drugged the mother to go to sleep so that they can actually get to the hospital, but And there’s an odd, um, scene before that where they’re having dinner and he’s trying to poison her. Yeah. 

Craig: He roofies his mom, which is kind of, you know, I guess, you know, as far as plot devices go, okay, I get that, you know, need to get her out of the way, but why did he have a big ol thing of roofies anyway?

Who is 

Todd: this kid? He’s also a chemist. 

Craig: Okay. All right, fair enough. 

Todd: By now. Yeah. But that whole scene was, it was a very awkward scene, but it was awkward for the wrong reasons, you know? Yeah. It wasn’t awkward, you know, Because here, this family and this friend are coping with the loss of their friend next door.

That almost seems like everybody’s forgotten 

Craig: about that now. Yeah, it’s, it just kind of, I just felt like, tonally, it was all over the place. It didn’t know what it wanted to do. And I’m sure a lot of that had to do with the fact that much of it was redone in post production. Like you said, when it was screened for test audiences, they didn’t care for it.

The studio execs didn’t like it. They didn’t think it was going to make money. Uh, and so there was one, uh, exec in particular who really pushed for a lot of changes. They ended up doing a lot of reshoots. There was never intended to be any kind of significant gore. Anything with any kind of gore is cut and, and pasted in.

The death scenes were far more tame, uh, Elvira’s death scene in the, in the final cut is, is really graphic, comical, hilarious, it’s a hilarious moment. I don’t even know if we should spoil it. It’s so good. It’s worth 

Todd: waiting for. That has to go down in history as one of the most notorious death scenes in any film.

It’s 

Craig: so good. It’s so good, it’s so bad it’s good. It’s that kind of thing. But I loved it. I mean that got me back on board after some kind of questionable things. So yeah, I can tell. I almost wish that we had a director’s cut. I’d almost like to see what, yeah, what he intended it to be. Cause I have a feeling it could have been a cute kind of sweet.

Uh, movie for younger people, and that’s what he was going for. And then these, you know, the, every dream sequence that’s in the film, and I think there are two or three, those were added after post production. They were trying to capitalize on the success of Nightmare, so they wanted, you know, things that were familiar, uh, to Craven fans.

There’s even, I would, I would go so far as to call it a Freddy cameo. Uh, in the Oh, 

Todd: yeah. Well, what has happened, I guess, once she wakes up, uh, and, uh, he’s kind of keeping her in the shed, There’s a really, for me, there’s a very interesting moment when she sort of snaps to the next level of brain function where she is staring out the window and approaching it, the window of the shed, which looks out on the back porch of her house as though suddenly she is recognizing it’s, it’s that robot brain melding with her human brain for the first time, the back porch of the house and her dad opens the door and You know, right on cue.

And, uh, sort of like clockwork, you can suddenly see in her eyes, she’s looking and staring at him and she turns her head and she looks and she stares at Paul and she looks back at the dad and he’s like, okay, now we’re gonna seat you back down here. We’re gonna close you up. But she gets out and she goes over to, uh, her dad’s house.

She sneaks out, um, as the robot or whatever, goes back to her old house, confronts her father in the basement. Again, another Cravenism coming back, right? 

Craig: You got the big, uh, in this case, it’s coal burning. You got the big furnace in the basement. Uh, every, everyone we’ve watched so far has had a furnace in the basement and it’s been a pivotal plot 

Todd: point.

And they’re not modern furnaces 

Craig: at all. No, this one is like a coal furnace with a huge coal bin. The 

Todd: fire’s coming out of it. The outside of it is hot. Right. And he, she lures him down there almost, that was a comical for me, almost like, uh, When she puts a little thing of bourbon on the steps, Yeah, she baits him, huh?

He’s like a mouse reaching for some cheese and she grabs him and yanks him down the steps. And basically grabs him, burns him to death, right? Yeah, she 

Craig: burns, she, well, she breaks his neck first. Uh, she holds him up against the burning furnace and you hear his neck snap and his head, uh, falls back. Um, and then it cuts back to, uh, Paul who is still searching the neighborhood for her.

He sees smoke coming out of the house from the furnace. He goes down and finds her there and she has put the dad in the furnace. When Paul, uh, pulls the dad out of the furnace, um, his entire upper body, including his face, is smothered. Severely severely burned and then later on just you know a few scenes later Paul has a nightmare sequence which of course at first you don’t realize is a nightmare But 

Todd: like a form coming underneath his sheets towards him right 

Craig: and when he pulls the covers back It’s revealed that it is Uh, the burned father reanimated, of course this is all a dream, and he rises up out of the bed in all, in exactly the same way that Freddy rises up out of the bed in Nightmare 

Todd: and a New Nightmare.

You could have put Johnny Depp in 

Craig: there. You could have. Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah. And it, you know, with the severely burned face and the dark clothes, I mean, it, it almost was a Freddy Krueger cameo. Um, so you could see that Kraven was kind of going out of his way to, to do what the studio exec said. You know, I, I don’t know how much say he had in that.

And I’ve read that, um, in interviews, when he’s talked about this, he’s talked about, uh, some of the problems, um, that they faced with, with all these studio expectations and whatnot. And he said that the final product, he doesn’t know what to make of it. You know, it, it, uh, it is what it is. It’s kind of a hodgepodge of different things going on.

And, uh, and neither did the 

Todd: audience. Know what to make of it. Yeah. Really. I mean, it wants to be a horror movie at times. It gets really sweet actually, like you said, sort of for the first, uh, half almost of the film, you have this sort of romantic kind of interesting thing, and then it does have these moments of real poignancy, you know?

Mm-Hmm. . I’m thinking about, uh, well, let’s see. The father dies, uh, and he then hide, decides he needs to hide her, um, in the bedroom, uh, or whatever of her house. Mm-Hmm. Elvira from across the street, uh, sees her and calls the cops. And she ends up coming over and killing Elvira. Then he decides he needs to hide her up in his own attic.

It’s the only place he can keep her. Uh, and then he finds her, she kind of breaks out of the attic, which leads right into his room, so it’s probably the safest place for him to put her. And for the first time, she sees herself in the 

Craig: mirror. Yeah. And throughout all of this, I get what you’re saying about tone, because people are dropping You know pretty quickly on on the block, but nobody seems to be all particularly concerned about it Yeah, 

Todd: and and they sort of stopped looking for her corpse 

Craig: all of a sudden.

Yeah, and and you know Paul It seems to be more concerned about just kind of keeping her protected than More concerned than he is about the fact that she’s killing people now the people that she’s killed have been not very nice people Nonetheless, you’ve got this, you know, reanimated corpse who, you know, goes off, uh, at any time.

But, but you’re right. They try to maintain that kind of sweet relationship between them, and it’s suggested, That her humanity is kind of slowly coming back. So again, just tonally, it’s, it’s really, uh, kind of bizarre. 

Todd: And it doesn’t also make a lot of sense, because here is this genius who’s put, who’s engineered this chip, installed it in her.

You know, he’s first controlling her, turning her on and off like he turned his robot on and off with a remote. And then it becomes pretty clear the remote’s not working anymore. Why doesn’t he just tinker around with her some more? You know, instead of hiding her in the, he’s got her in the house. He seems to be extremely successful, uh, at keeping her hidden when, when she needs to be hidden.

Why not pull that chip out and do a little more reprogramming to kind of. Calm these, um, homicidal tendencies. 

Craig: Well, I don’t know what his plan was from the beginning. I mean, everybody knew this girl was dead. I don’t know, you know, how he planned to reintroduce her if he ever did. You know, maybe I’m questioning too much.

But yeah, and, and, you know, why didn’t he do those things? He kept leaving her to go other places, but I never really got the sense that he was going anywhere important. Like, he was going to pick up his mom’s dry cleaning. Like, is that really that important? Like, maybe you could make time for that later.

Deal with the homicidal, you know, robot person in your attic Well, 

Todd: when she’s established, uh, repeatedly that she’s, her strength, you know, allows her to open up doors and break down doors that have been broken into, he doesn’t even care. More stuff that just 

Craig: doesn’t even make any sense. And, and, you know, as much as I am talking about these things, and it probably sounds like I’m being pretty critical, I have to say, I’m glad we watched it.

I enjoyed it for what it was. It was funny, sometimes intentionally not so, sometimes, uh, not so much. But, you know, these little things that just didn’t make any sense. Like, in the beginning of the movie, B. B. is voiced by, I don’t know the actor’s name, but you pointed him out. He was in, uh, Nightmare on Elm Street.

Uh, it’s, um, he voiced Roger Rabbit, uh, in the Roger Rabbit movie. Right, and he played the doctor in Nightmare on Elm Street. So he voices the robot in the beginning, and many things don’t make sense. First of all, the robot talks and sings incessantly, but not in any kind of Coherent languages, you know, these funny little strange sounds But

Todd: it will not shut 

Craig: up no it goes on and on all the time like a babbling baby, right But as you pointed out apparently as much of a genius as paul is he couldn’t teach the robot english, you know It’s just it’s just nonsense stuff. But then when the robot brain gets put into christy swanson then She goes mute for the next 20, 25, 30 minutes, um, until the very end when she starts making the meat murp sounds too.

And I had no idea what was going on at that point. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s, uh, it’s very off. There’s, okay, so if you go back to that scene where she was, she sees herself and she’s sitting on the bed, uh, and he comes in and he sees her and she has tears in her eyes. Don’t 

Craig: you ever listen? What are

you doing down here, 

Todd: Sam? She looks at him, and is sort of holding up a picture of the three of them, the robot, her, and the boy together, like she understands. He looks at her, and you’re thinking, oh, this is gonna be a pretty powerful little moment. Paul, 

Craig: telephone. I’ll be down in a minute. It sounds important, it’s Tom.

I’m coming! Don’t you move. 

Todd: And he gets up and he leaves the room again. Ah, it, it It was like a moment that was supposed to happen. She’s even sort of approaching him. You almost wonder if she’s going to kiss him and he pushes her away way too quickly. There seems to be nothing going on in this kid’s head emotionally, right?

You know, other than, well, I got to deal with this. Now I got to deal with this. Now I need to lock you up now. Oh, I need to find a way to hide this or whatever. Yet, on the other end, they’re sort of trying to establish this progression of character with the girl and the robot. Right, 

Craig: and, and I, you know, to Swanson’s credit, I think that she does a good job.

I mean, you can, you can definitely see in her face when B. B. is, is in charge of the ship, and when a little bit of her humanity is starting to come back. You know, when, uh, when B. B. is, is in charge, especially when, you know, she’s on a, a, a, a, A rage. She’s very wide-eyed, and, and her, uh, movements are, are far more sharp, uh, uh, and more robotic when the more human side starts to come through.

She softens her face, softens her movements soften her eyes. Yeah, her eyes soften. And, uh, you, I mean, you get a sense that you see some of that humanity coming through, and you have to wonder in the original. You know, were they gonna get a happily ever after? You know, was her, yeah, uh, was her humanity going to come back?

And, and maybe they could somehow have some sort of existence. I 

Todd: don’t know. Or was she at least going to get something to play against? You know, like somebody who would respond to her emotionally so that we could see that, you know, and there was none of that. Yeah. It was way more focused on the horror aspect of the kind of the hunt and the chase and the, oh, she’s killed somebody.

Now we got to go find her. Now the police are after her and things like that. I think she takes off running and he’s chasing her through the streets at 

Craig: night and the police are also You know on in pursuit because two 

Todd: deaths on one street all of a sudden they discover the father’s body But at the same time they discover elvira’s body and then there’s that just that weird Again, one of these strange things that just shows how disjointed this film is Where he’s running after her, ends up on this sort of empty street, and Carl, the biker from the beginning of the movie, who we only saw once, who we suddenly see again, happens to come in and decide he wants to start harassing him again.

Oh, no you 

Craig: don’t! I waited a long time for this! Where’s your little friend now, huh, shitface? Huh? Where’s little BB now? He’s not here, is he? He’s 

Todd: all blown up! Which is just an excuse. For the girl to pop in, and for her to murder Carl. 

Craig: Right, it seems like something that if, you know, more effort had been put in, uh, from the get go, if they had a clearer vision of where they were going, this would have been something that would have got left on the cutting room floor.

Yeah. It just seems very much cut and paste, and 

Todd: But you know, from a horror movie perspective, She has run out of bodies people to kill. Yeah. Because she has already nailed every single person that as a robot or as a human, you know, was bad. And so the movie’s gotta kind of wrap up at this point, you 

Craig: know?

Well, and, and she’s also kind of started to turn on the good guys too. There’s a scene, uh, where the friend, Tom, has finally had enough. Which, you know, finally somebody has some sense in this movie. And he’s had enough and he’s gonna tell the police, Robot Sam, as Tom is, is leaving the yard, Robot Sam. out the window and attacks him and it appears that she’s, uh, trying to kill him too.

I know that this was another scene that was completely put in. I don’t think originally she was supposed to ever turn against her friends, turn against the good people of the movie. So, it doesn’t know, you know, it doesn’t know what it wants to be and it leaves me at the end Not really knowing what I want, you know, I don’t know what I want to happen.

Yeah the end there’s you know This long kind of police chase through town Sam’s on foot running you She can jump over cars and pick people up and throw them 30 feet, you know holding them over her head again Why does she have superhuman strength? I guess microchips do that. I don’t know. But then eventually, uh, the cops corner them and Sam, uh, is, you know, going back and forth between her robot vision and like human vision, uh, and you see the humanity coming out and she starts to run towards Paul who is being held back by the police and the police think she’s being aggressive and, uh, they shoot her.

Todd: In another thing, in another spot that’s supposed to be kind of a I think, because now she’s sort of at stage four of awareness, right? Now, you, you get the POV shots of, of her robot vision flickering with her human vision. And you’re almost starting to think, oh, maybe, and she says for the first time, Paul’s name, right?

Like you said. In her own voice, right? In her own voice. And so you’re getting to this point where, oh, maybe the human part of her is starting to take control. Um, and maybe there’s a turnaround now, a turnaround point. And of course, as a tragedy, then she runs up. Into the police, the robot. I think she’s threatened by the guns.

Um, the robot part kind of like sees the threat. She runs up to the police and the police shoot her. Which is, I guess, You know, you can fall down the stairs, you can be brain dead for hours, have a microchip planted in you, you know, no need for shocking your heart to life or anything like that, but once you’ve taken a bullet to the stomach, that is the end 

Craig: all be all.

Yeah, uh, and, and I, I, I read, I think that, you know, the ending was supposed to be different, um, I don’t I don’t know if she was supposed to get shot or something along those lines was supposed to happen. Um, but I do know that there was a scene filmed where they had a discussion about what they were going to do in the future.

And he was saying, We have to go away, I have to hide you. And it kind of ended on an ambiguous note. You really didn’t know what happened. Oh. Um, instead, We get probably one of the lamest endcaps, uh, from a film I’ve ever seen. Oh my gosh, boys, it was that bad. And again, this was the studio exec. Uh, I’ve read, you know, what Craven and the other filmmakers have said, and they said, you know, the exec handed this down, He came up with the concept, uh, he wanted it filmed a particular way, and they just kind of threw up their hands and, and went with it.

And he is a moron. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s awful, folks. You know, I, I think the, the film would have been better if they had just cut off those last few minutes. Oh, yeah. 

Todd: You could have ended it with one of those pull away shots going up into the clouds of him embracing her 

Craig: body Finally be kind of a bittersweet ending.

Todd: It would be kind of a frankenstein ending, you know The master kind of embraces his monster and monster’s gone and all that and but instead we get That tacked on ending where she’s in the morgue and he goes back. Why why did he even go back to the morgue? Pulling her body out again. Like i’m gonna try it another time And, um, suddenly she wakes up, comes to life, and starts strangling him, which, A, makes no sense.

And then, the face starts to peel away, the arms start to peel away, and it turns out that she’s 

Craig: mechanical inside? Yes, she has somehow morphed into some sort of Evil looking version of what BB was in the beginning. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s like a, it’s like a Daven Cronenberg’s Transformers. Yeah, 

Craig: it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s bizarre.

It’s bizarre, it’s not, you know, the effects aren’t even good. I mean, it looks like they put like a piñata head underneath some cellophane and, you know, just ripped the cellophane. Oh yeah, 

Todd: and then when she pops out, you can tell it’s a mask on her face. 

Craig: Yeah, it’s horrible. It’s bad. So what would you say is your overall assessment?

Todd: Gosh, man, I would love to have seen the original movie. I would love to have seen the poignant type of movie that he wanted to make. And maybe what the novel was based on is more like. But at the end of the day, I just didn’t care. Yeah, it’s like you said, it was, it was tough to get emotionally invested because it was all over the place.

I didn’t know what I wanted. And so I, I was just watching and don’t get me wrong. It like, kind of like you said, too, I was entertained. It wasn’t horrible. I wasn’t compelled to get up and flip it off immediately. But I knew there was going to be no payoff before I saw no payoff, you know? And so I was just kind of more curious, sort of as a historical artifact, you know, how 

Craig: this would kind of wrap up.

And, and I, you know, the, the first 45 minutes probably, I would never have seen that. said that it came anywhere close to being a masterpiece of a film, or even as good as some of Craven’s own better films. Um, but it had a kind of charm to it, uh, initially. You know, it was a bright, sunny neighborhood, and the score, you know, early on was kind of cheerful.

Um, it had, uh, Almost an after school special kind of vibe to it, um, uh, it reminded me kind of a little bit of the Boy Who Could Fly, you know, there was, you know, kind of some wonder and mystery, but it was cute and fun and innocent and then, I think that it was always expected to take a darker turn, but I think that when they farther than they had originally intended.

It just kind of lost me. Uh, so, you know, I, I wanted to like it and there are definitely things that, uh, I was entertained by. It was, it was funny, uh, in parts. Christy Swanson gives a good performance. I 

Todd: think, you know, it’s nice to see kids playing kids. Yeah. Absolutely. Back in the day when they’d have 16 year olds playing 16 year olds instead of people who are obviously like 25, you know, 

Craig: For me, the movie is worth seeing for Anne Ramsey alone.

And she’d probably get maybe, maybe five minutes of screen time. Maybe. Um, but just, I could just about watch her in anything. Um, and then her death scene, just for the sheer ridiculous nature of it, it’s worth the price of admission right there. You know, I bet it’s up 

Todd: on YouTube somewhere. Oh, I’m sure it is.

You could probably Google it, find it on YouTube, and just watch that. Yeah. Um. Don’t let your kids watch it. Right, but nothing is more absurd than that scene. Yeah, I mean No, I’m thinking of all the death scenes in all the movies I’ve seen. I don’t know how many 

Craig: actually top that. Oh gosh, no, it’s great. So, you know, horror enthusiasts out there, especially if you’re a fan of Kraven, I would say it’s worth the hour and a half to give it a go.

I don’t know that it’s necessarily anything that I’ll ever want to watch again, but we’ll see, you know, if it’s on at two in the morning on a Saturday night sometime. Well, and 

Todd: if you’re interested in catching those cravenisms. The suburban happy kids, the overbearing parents. Terrible parents again. And then of course, you know, the turn for the dark.

Um, and, and sort of taking care of him. Craig, uh, thanks for sitting and watching another one of these films with me. Hey, my pleasure as always. Hopefully next week we’ll, uh, tune in with something that we’ll enjoy a little more. Yeah! Well, let’s hope so! Alright! Well, until then, if you enjoyed the show, please share it with your friends.

Uh, like our Facebook page. And, uh, check us out next week. This has been Todd. And Craig. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Anyone out there heard of Ravenous? We thought not. This almost forgotten flick features an all-star cast and a strong story but flew almost completely under the radar. We unearth this unique gem and talk about what makes it so fun – and funny.

Ravenous (1999)

Episode 33, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Welcome to another edition of Two Guys in a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: I’m Craig.

Todd: And today we are covering the 1999 film, Ravenous. This was my choice. I have really fond feelings for this film. I really like it, and I think it’s the kind of movie that’s kind of gone under the radar. Not a lot of people know about it, despite the fact that it has a cast that’s extremely recognizable.

And I think it’s a pretty well made movie. Yeah. Have you ever heard of it before? 

Craig: You know, I know I have heard of it. Um, You know, I, I look around at, uh, horror movie websites and, uh, Bloody Disgusting and Fangoria and whatnot. And I remember there being some talk about this. But I was surprised when you told me it came out in 1999, because I, I don’t remember following things as closely back then, so I don’t know if I just saw some feature on it, you know, as kind of a forgotten piece or what, but I, I had heard of it, but I knew next to nothing about it other than what you told me was that it was kind of a period piece, and that’s about it.

That’s about all I knew. Yeah, I, 

Todd: uh, Stumbled on it, I think it was actually a friend, a really good friend of mine who told me you have to see this movie and I’m pretty sure he saw this movie just because of the time frame it took. He’s a real, like, Civil War buff, old, old American history type thing. Uh, the movie takes place in 1847, shortly after the, uh, Mexican American War.

And I believe that he told me, uh, you just gotta see it. And I, I went into it, I, I rented it at Blockbuster, remember back when Blockbuster? I was on an internship and, uh, I was coming home from work and I had absolutely nothing to do. So I was watching a lot of movies and I picked this one up. I watched it.

I was so taken by it that the DVD had four commentaries on it. And I sat there that night and I rewatched the movie another three times, the director’s commentary, the writer’s commentary, and, uh, Guy Pierce, I believe, uh, and a couple of the other actors, uh, did a commentary. And then the last commentary was the person who played, uh, Calhoun, or otherwise, which actually didn’t even start until, you know, he comes in, which is quite a bit into the movie.

And it was actually pretty boring, his part, but the rest of it, I was just fascinated by it. It just seemed like this, how did I not know about this movie, and why is it so charming? Yeah, I don’t know. Yeah, it’s, 

Craig: it’s, I mean, it is, it’s a well made movie, and I’m surprised that it That I hadn’t heard more about it, but maybe it’s because it’s really kind of different.

I mean, it’s, uh, I don’t know, maybe you’ll disagree with me, but when it comes down to it, it’s basically a vampire movie, right? No, I totally agree. I mean, they, they play it off as, as cannibalism, which it is, but there’s also a supernatural element to it where they, Um, talk about, and we’ve talked about this uh, just recently with Pet Sematary, the Native American belief in the Wendigo, um, and they go a little bit, you know, I don’t really know a whole lot about that myth that what they play up here is that the Wendigo like, uh, I don’t know, It’s like a 

Todd: spirit or something that when it, or a creature, when it eats the flesh of a man, becomes insatiable and needs that flesh and gets its energy and its power absorbed from that thing.

So I guess in a sense, uh, I get, is it the idea of the Wendigo as a creature, then we can all be Wendigos if we eat the flesh of another, much like the vampire? Yeah, right, right. I 

Craig: mean, that’s what they were saying here. And yeah, that’s it. I mean, if a person eats another person, they absorb their strength, they absorb their spirit, and it makes them stronger.

Gives them kind of supernatural strength and healing abilities. And so it’s vampires, . Yeah. Really, basically it is, it come down to, 

Todd: and some element of this has always been kind of, um, aspect of different cultures, uh, warlike cultures where you’ll find that people think that e the eating, the heart of their enemy will give them some strength or some power, some virility.

There was some practice of that in, even in Western cultures at some point, more barbaric cultures, but. So it’s not a totally unusual thing. What makes this kind of weird is the idea that, like a vampire, that changes you. Right. And you become a supernatural being that can’t be harmed, 

Craig: really. Well, and that’s kind of what I was saying.

I mean, it is, in essence, a vampire movie. But at the same time, it’s kind of not. So, like, it doesn’t really fall into a really specific genre of horror. And so maybe that’s why it didn’t make it. Have as much draw or appeal. I don’t know. I, when you mentioned this, you know, I had heard of it, but I’ll be honest.

I wasn’t super excited about it. Like you threw out a couple of names and of the ones you threw out, this was kind of the one that was like, eh, I don’t know. I wasn’t 

Todd: surprised, but how did you feel by the end of it? I liked 

Craig: it. I liked it. And I think that part of, I just am not really big into period movies.

I think I, I tend to prefer more contemporary. But I liked this one. It was intriguing. Now, I will say that there were elements of it that I found pretty predictable, um, but it had some good twists, too, that I didn’t see coming. And so that, I was pleased with that. I enjoyed 

Todd: it. That’s interesting you call it predictable.

Did you read up about it at all? No, I didn’t read anything. Didn’t even read a synopsis? Nope. Not a one 

Craig: line situation? Well, I maybe read Something that says, like, they’re at an outpost and a mysterious stranger comes and causes havoc, something like that. Oh, okay. Alright, yes. Um, but that’s about 

Todd: all I knew.

Well, that’s kind of what happens. Right. The movie starts out, uh, Guy Pearce’s character is a, uh, captain, Captain John Boyd. Uh, in the American, uh, Army, and the scene starts out with a, sort of some flashbacks and a banquet scene where he’s being awarded a medal for bravery. And he’s given this very large, very juicy, very delicious looking steak in front of him.

But it’s flashing back to, obviously he’s just come out for the battlefield and just having these flashbacks to the gore and the grossness of the battlefield and he’s looking at the steak. And at that moment we’re thinking, Oh yeah, this guy’s damaged. She’s got some PTSD and he just can’t eat the steak because it reminds him of the gore of the battlefield.

Craig: Right. And there’s just the tiniest little underlying comedy throughout the whole movie too. I mean, it’s certainly not the focus, but that scene that you’re talking about is All these, you know, male military officials sitting around this huge table, all of them eating these huge steaks, like, like cartoon size, like rare to medium rare.

And like, you can hear them sawing into them and chomping on it. It’s really unappetizing. It kind of is actually, yeah. And uh, you see that the main character, Boyd. It’s like he’s disgusted by the meat. Like he can’t bring himself to eat it. And it makes sense because he’s flashing back to all that gore that he saw.

You know, people dying all around him. So The colonel 

Todd: is looking at him and pulls him aside and says, You’re no hero. Right. I’m just going to send you away to this outpost. And the colonel, by the way, played by John Spencer, played the colonel. You might recognize him from West Wing. Right. In fact, this was his last film role.

Yeah, I read that. So, yeah, and he basically tells him, You’re no hero. And this is, of course, after awarding him the medal. And sends him off to this outpost. Basically out in the middle of nowhere. In the middle of the American, um, Mountains, essentially. Right in California. The spot between the East and the West.

And it’s interesting because, I think the film does a really good job at this point of setting up this mystery. And I feel like it carries a sense of mystery all throughout, which I felt made it a little unpredictable in many ways. In that, when you look back on this scene, having seen the film, it gains more significance, right?

Oh, he just got awarded a medal. Oh, now he says he’s no hero, and he’s essentially punishing him by sending him to this outpost with all these other people who clearly also are being sent away for one reason or another. These are like the scraps of the army that nobody knows what to do with. 

Craig: Kind of inept, you know, goofy kind of characters.

Todd: So the question becomes, well, why? Why are they doing this to him? What’s his story and why is he just so dazed all the time and, and weirded out? 

Craig: Well, we get that back story pretty early on, don’t we? I mean, we find out, um, that what had happened was, uh, he had, I guess, been near uh, enemy lines. He, he and his, uh, And when, I guess it’s the Mexican army, you said the Mexican American war, then when the Mexican army, you know, when they were in battle, the Americans were losing, and rather than try to be a hero and go down in a blaze of glory, Boyd instead played dead.

So when the Mexican army picked up, they lost. He ended up on the bottom of this big pile of bodies and he said something about one of his troops or his commanding officer or something was right on top of him with his head half blown off and his blood was running down over his face and down his throat.

And the guy asked him, whoever the colonel or whatever asked him, well, So then what happened? And he said, well, something changed. And you see him drag himself out from underneath all these bodies, and he goes and, uh, breaks the neck of one of the Mexican soldiers, grabs his gun, and I guess kind of captures the, uh, 

Todd: Yeah, it allows so that the others can come in and take it over.

Right. The, uh, colonel is, at one point, saying, I should kill you, but that doesn’t look good, since you actually Are the one who Are the one who saved it, so your cowardice turned out to be fine. Now, when you, when you were watching this, did you, in his backstory, put together this notion that it was maybe the blood 

Craig: of his I knew that it had to be significant, and I knew that that had to be why He wasn’t eating the meat.

Oh, wow. Because, I mean, because it’s an odd thing to say. His blood was running down my throat. You know, I mean, it would be one thing to say I was covered in blood or whatever, but to be so specific as to say his blood was running down my throat and then something changed. Okay. Well, there’s 

Todd: something going on.

Fair enough. Okay. That makes sense. I, for one, uh, again, I had to look back on all this after the film. To realize the significance of all of it. I felt like he was really just describing the horrors of war and the horrors of what he went through. Uh, it wasn’t until we, turns out that this film was about cannibals that you can look back on the scenes and go, Oh yeah, that’s why.

Um, at least for me, but you’re smarter than I am. 

Craig: Like, apparently. 

Todd: Way more on the lookout. Way more on the lookout for significance. Well, I mean, 

Craig: I didn’t, I didn’t know really what was going on yet. I just knew that there had to be something going on. And then, so he gets sent out to this outpost, and it’s funny, because they say they’re sending him to California.

I think of California as being sunny and warm. Yeah. But they’re in the mountains, like the Sierra Nevada mountains or whatever, so when they get out, When he gets there, it’s cold and snowy and desolate, and it’s really just this tiny little outpost with these shoddy, you know, kind of cabins and teepees and things.

It’s like 

Todd: a fort that anybody could take . Yeah. Right, right. It’s got walls up around it in a big gate, but it doesn’t look like it would take much to knock this down when he, it’s really just for supplies and things essentially. 

Craig: Right, right. And that when he gets. there. The guy who’s in charge, Captain Hart, who’s played by Jeffrey Jones, who again is a really recognizable face.

You’ll recognize him from Beetlejuice and he was in the Crucible. I mean, he’s, he worked, he used to work a lot. He sure did. Um, he doesn’t work so much anymore. He 

Todd: kind of imploded. There was a bit of a scandal, wasn’t 

Craig: there? Yeah. I think child pornography or something. That was it. Yeah. Um, which, you know, that’s gross and unexcusable, Unfortunate because he’s a good actor.

Yeah, 

Todd: and you know, he brings a certain quality. It’s hard to see him in any role That’s not at some level of comedy, right? I think once you see him in a movie you almost expect that it’s going to be a goofy Yeah, 

Craig: he that’s part of the reason that I like him is that he kind of has a really good balance of where he can Be kind of serious and ominous, but at the same time he can also be kind of goofy Um, he was the principal in Ferris Bueller’s Day Off, right?

Yeah, anyway He, uh, just explains what’s going on. He’s like, you know, this was originally built as a mission by Native Americans, I think, and then we inherited it from them. And he basically says. We don’t really have anything to do. He says something like, tedium is kind of the order of the day, or whatever.

Todd: Yeah, and his thing is uh, reading, well, he’s trying to crack walnuts. He’s having a real hard time and he gets up and it’s a humorous scene where he’s telling what he does, and what he does is he reads philosophy and big, heavy heady books and he uses one of these giant books to crack one of his walnuts.

Right. And we immediately are introduced to all the characters because he’s explaining everybody to uh, uh, to Guy Pearce’s character. 

Craig: And I was nervous because there were a lot of them. And I was thinking, how am I going to keep track of all these characters names? 

Todd: It’s easy because they’re like cartoon characters, right?

Every one of them has a thing. Right. 

Craig: Yeah. So there’s, there’s Knox, who I guess is a captain, but the way that we’re introduced to him is that he’s just kind of drunk all the time, right? 

Todd: Also supposed to be the doctor. So it’s like, don’t 

Craig: get sick. Um, there’s Reich who is described as the soldier and he’s kind of the rough.

He’s a tough, brutal 

Todd: one. He’s almost, he’s almost like, uh, you know those movies from the 80s where the Russians were invading. Yeah. Like, the white short hair. They all Lundgren and really built and buff and just, all 

Craig: the time. And again, such a recognizable face. I’m not sure the actor’s name. I remember him.

He did a short scene. But you’ve seen him all over the place. He’s got these icy blue eyes. Yeah, with stunning eyes. Yeah, tough guy. Then there’s, um, George and Martha, which I thought was pretty funny. Um, they’re the Native Americans who, I guess, just help out around the camp or whatever. Cleaves, I think played by David Arquette.

Yeah, and he’s like the stoner one 

Todd: You wouldn’t think you could stick a stoner in an 1847 film, but peyote Right native Americans around right a local weed 

Craig: And he’s he’s he’s the cook too, and then there’s Toffler? Was that the, and he’s the quiet one and the minister and that’s, that’s their little group.

And that’s Jeremy Davies? Jeremy Davies, right. Yeah, again, he’s one of those people that I’ve seen in so many movies, but I can’t necessarily place exactly where. A good strong 

Todd: cast. It is, and I, did you feel the acting was, uh, was up to par? I did. I did too. Aside from the fact that they were clearly playing caricatured characters, which I think was just part of the comedy of the film.

Yeah. The acting was quite good. 

Craig: Well, right. And like David Arquette always kind of plays the same, like you cast David Arquette as David Arquette in your movies. 

Todd: But Jeremy Davies too, uh, you know, in some way, the sweet, soft 

Craig: little 

Todd: guy has all these weird ticks. You know, he has a very understated Jeff Goldblum at his, like his own take on acting like Jeff Goldblum does.

Craig: Right, right. And, and that’s it. I mean, they just entered like, just. In a matter of a minute and a half, you’re introduced to this whole cast of characters. And then it really, it jumps right into the story. I mean, this is, it’s not a slow paced movie at all. I mean, it keeps going, uh, the whole time. And so then, the big conflict, I guess, 

Todd: arrives.

Yeah, one of the guy, a guy just shows up at the camp and he’s outside and he’s cold and he’s, they see him through the window and he falls down. They bring him in to warm him up and wake him up, and, uh, he says that his name is Calhoun, and he has this Scottish accent. And he tells this story of being with another group, uh, with a whole group of people traveling through the wilderness, and, uh, they got beset by storms in winter, and so they all retreated into this cave to wait out the storm.

Only the storm never left. We ate 

Craig: the oxen, 

Todd: all the horses,

Craig: even my own dog. And that lasted us about a month. After that, we turned to our belts. Shoes. Any roots we could dig up, but you know, there’s no real 

Todd: nourishment in those. And eventually, they start eating each other. Uh, and the guy who, supposedly, was the most brutal of this group was this Colonel Ives who, uh, was leading the expedition.

Craig: See, and again, I knew this is where I thought that it was a little bit predictable because this guy, Calhoun, is telling this story and his version of the story is that he went out looking for supplies and when he came back, one of them had died of just exposure and and famine or whatever. And, um, so, when he came back They were eating this guy and he’s like, he acts like he was disgusted, he says, you know, if they had tried to do that and I had been there, would I have tried to stop them?

I don’t know, but he said, when I smelled the cooking meat, I thanked God and he says, I ate it, you know, and he said that he tried to eat sparingly, but others didn’t, and eventually This Colonel Ives guy started killing people to eat, you know, not just people dying of natural exposure, but actually killing them to eat.

And the reason that I found it predictable was because he concludes his story by saying it eventually got down to two of, the three of them, himself, the colonel, and a woman. Um, and he says that he was cowardly, the, the brave thing may have been to try to So, uh, this is a story about a guy named Colonel Ives, and he’s in the military, and uh, Colonel Hart says, well, I don’t recall ever having met any Colonel Ives, and he says, well, Good for you, because he’s a real jerk, and he’s a terrible, terrible human being.

We see all of the other characters in the flashback except Colonel Ives. Right. And so I knew that there was something shady going on. Okay, fair enough. And so, right, And again, things move very quickly. They say, you know, he tells the story. Colonel Hart said, well, is there a chance that the woman is still there?

And he says, yeah, as far as I know, Ives and the woman are still there. And Hart says, well, we have to go try to rescue them. That’s our job. And they go. And the whole time I was thinking, and Calhoun says he wants to go with them. And I, I, I’m thinking he’s lying. There’s a setup of some kind. I didn’t know if it was, I don’t know if I necessarily saw the setup coming, but I knew he was lying and I knew that he was the one who had really eaten everybody.

Todd: Okay, fair enough. Right. That actually came as a bit of a surprise to me. I, I really didn’t know what to expect when I first saw this film. And especially because they do give you some reasons to, to believe that he is, Well, they are certainly casting suspicion on him, as you say. But they also give you a couple moments where he’s putting himself in a vulnerable spot.

For example, as they go on their expedition, uh, they stop and they have a little chat. And it’s interesting, and again, this is another scene where, in retrospect, it makes a lot more sense than it did at the time. Where, um, Boyd asks Calhoun a little more detail, like, After you ate the meat, you said that you more revived.

Yeah. And he’s like, uh, what, what do you mean by that? You can tell he’s putting it together with his previous experience of Right, 

Craig: with his previous experience and because before they had left, George, the Native American, had shown Park and Boyd this, um, it looked like a piece of tapestry or something with some Native American artwork on it and it was a sketch, uh, of, uh, George.

Some kind of monstrous being, you know, not totally inhuman looking, but with like big bloody teeth and eating another person. And, and, uh, George explains the legend of the Wendigo, and explains that when a person and Wendigo or whatever eats another person, they get more strength. And so, so then Boyd asks him, did you say you felt stronger?

And Calhoun says, yeah, I do seem to kind of remember feeling a little bit more virile. 

And 

Todd: when you’re first watching it, you’re thinking, oh, well, he’s trying to make this connection to the Wendigo myth. But then you can also know later on that. Clearly, he was also thinking about his own personal experience.

Craig: Right, because when he said that the blood was running down his throat, he said something changed, and then he was able to pull himself out. So 

And 

Todd: this guy, otherwise, is a real wiener. I mean, he, he can’t stand the sight of blood. Right. Uh, he doesn’t know what to do in stressful situations. He is cowardly.

He’s extremely cowardly. So, uh For him to change and suddenly not be cowardly would be something that even he would notice. Right. Yeah. So, uh, they continue on and one of the crew, uh, Toffler The pastor guy finds a bone and in the process ends up sort of falling down the mountain and getting injured. And so then they set up camp that night and go to sleep.

He wakes up screaming in the middle of the night, yelling that Calhoun was licking him, was licking his wound, which is, and Calhoun is right. He’s got blood on his right. It’s clear that it’s been 

Craig: happening. Well, and I really liked that scene, too, because you see it, but it’s all in really, like, darkness. So you, you see kind of silhouetted movement, and you hear, like, kind of a lapping sound, and then the guy starts screaming, and they turn all the lights on, and you see Calhoun with just a little tiny bit of blood on his lips.

Todd: And he’s really not denying it, uh, he’s just, he’s freaking out. He’s like, I can’t help, it’s essentially what you’re thinking, at least what I was thinking. was, well he can’t help it. He’s got this Wendigo thing. He doesn’t mean them any harm, but almost like, you know, again, like this vampire who doesn’t want to drink blood, but needs to is doing it.

And he begs them to tie him up. He’s like, please, I can’t be trusted, tie me up. And to me, that was something that brings you back to that side of, okay, well maybe he’s Not planning anything sinister after all, because after all he’s asking to be tied 

Craig: up. At the 

Todd: same time, why would he be so brazen, you know, as to be licking 

Craig: this guy?

Right, right. Um, and I think that that goes, you know, that’s, that’s kind of classic vampire stuff. You know, we saw that in, in let me in and, and we’ve, you know, in other movies where it’s like they have to, to survive, they have, you know, it’s, it’s instinct or impulse. But again, I don’t know. I think maybe it was because of.

The actor who plays Calhoun, he’s been in so many things and he always is shifty and like you, he’s just got this appearance about him. Like he can’t be trusted. 

Todd: He has a look to him. Right. You’re right. 

Craig: He really does. And so I was just suspicious of, and he acts that way too, you know, that’s, that’s kind of his affect.

And so I, I just didn’t trust him at all. So even when he said, tie me up, you know, So, the tough guy, Reich, his immediate instinct was to kill him and the, the quiet little minister guy is like, yeah, do it. Like, this guy’s a freak. Um, but they, but they get him outside and he says, I was having a nightmare and when he started screaming, I woke up and I was doing it.

I didn’t even know I was doing it. So please just, I can’t be trusted. Time me up again. Yes. He’s shady. Right. It’s just really shady. Too 

Todd: weird. No, that makes sense. I mean, you know, something’s going on. What 

Craig: I was thinking was. He was Colonel Ives, there may probably have been a guy named Calhoun, but he ate him.

Todd: I think you’re probably right about that. Yeah, no, I think you’re right. Well, and that’s what we come to find out because they happen on the cave. Calhoun. Kind of runs off by the side of the cave. They’re, they’ve kind of got a leash on them, but they kind of let the leash go. Yeah. And that 

Craig: part was weird because he was acting really strangely like whimpering.

And well, 

Todd: I took it to be fear. Like he was really didn’t want to be there after all. Right. He was trying to get away and they’re jerking him around and it’s the soldier guy, right. Reich who’s doing it. But finally, right. Kind of gets occupied. Both he and, uh, Steve. All 

Craig: these names. Yeah, I know, so many names.

It’s okay because everybody’s gonna die pretty soon. True, yeah, 

Todd: we’ll get right down to a few. 

Craig: Right. But Colonel Hart sends Reich and Boyd in. He has to send, he has to send Boyd in because Boyd is an officer and he needs an officer with the, I guess, for the exploration or whatever. It’s a little weak but.

So those two go in exploring the cave leaving, George and Colonel Hart and Toller, or Toffler, excuse me, outside with Calhoun. And to be 

Todd: fair, Toffler’s job is more or less to watch Calhoun. Pretty much. And he’s by the side, he’s really not, clearly not going to go anywhere. Who’s got the gun? It’s Toffler, so whatever.

So they go in and they are exploring what must have been the world’s largest cave. Oh yeah, I was really, I was, 

Craig: I know, I was, I was sitting here thinking, Wow, that’s a really nice 

Todd: cave you guys found there. And, uh, and they go in and they find a hole with a rope in it and they go down in the hole, or one of them goes down, right, does while Boyd stands up there.

In the meantime, outside, Calhoun is getting increasingly more bizarre in his activities. And the music is also coming in at this point and getting really, 

Craig: ch, ch, ch. Mm. Intense, you know, something’s coming and the music, the music in this film is great. Yeah, it’s really good. 

Todd: It’s so unusual to, it’s a mix of styles that really works.

It starts out as this old American sorts of Western. Yeah, things you would imagine are being played on a instruments that you’ve cobbled together, By the end of the movie, it’s almost an ethereal, supernatural, more typical type supernatural sound that’s coming from organs. 

Craig: Right, and sometimes there’s like Native American chant in the background.

I mean, you’re right, it’s a really interesting mix and it works really well. And I 

Todd: think the music does a lot to really ratchet up the tension in this scene. Yes, definitely in this scene. Besides the intercutting and the craziness of Calhoun. He starts scuffling, like, like approaching. Freaking out, uh, Toffler a little bit, but he kind of backs up.

He’s got his hands moving and he’s making these sounds with his mouth. And then he starts scratching at the ground. Like he’s digging in there looking for something. In the meantime, inside the cave, Rike comes across all the bodies. Uh, the butchered, hanging up bodies, and skeletons by now, puts two and two together by counting them, saying, Wait a minute.

Oh god.

Craig: How many did he say was in the 

Todd: party? Six, right? Why? 

Craig: Who’s this?

Liars. Oh Jesus.

It’s a trap! Um, and he climbs down. back up on the rope and they start running out shouting, it’s him, it’s him, Calhoun killed them all. But because it’s the world’s 

Todd: largest cave, it takes them quite a bit of time 

Craig: to get out there. And they don’t, the people outside don’t hear, I guess. 

Todd: It does stretch credibility considerably.

Anyway, what’s happening outside is extremely compelling. Essentially, Calhoun Uh, kills, or stabs, uh, first of all, Colonel 

Craig: Hart. Yeah, what he had been digging, he had had a knife buried. That’s 

Todd: right, he had pulled out the knife, stabs Hart, and then George 

Craig: tries to throw a hatchet at him, and this is right after he had stabbed, uh, Colonel Hart.

And Jeffrey Jones, at this point in his career, was not the skinny man that you remember from, uh, Ferris Bueller’s Day Off. He’s a big guy. And so, I don’t even know if I really noticed it at first, but I thought about it later. Calhoun to deflect the hatchet picks up Colonel Hart and moves him in front of him.

Todd: It would have taken a 

Craig: great deal of strength. Right. Yeah. Especially to pick that guy up, you know, dead weight with just his bare hands. And so then somehow he kills George. I think he shoots him. Yeah. Shoots George. George is dead. George falls down. And then he goes to shoot Toffler. But the gun is empty.

And so he’s, he’s, he’s, well that’s annoying. 

Todd: That’s the point at which it really turns, like, super funny. And, uh, he just approaches him with the knife and looks at him. And the guy’s just standing there and he’s looking at him. And the guy’s just standing there and he goes, Run. Yeah. Yeah. Like, dude, run.

Well, and 

Craig: I, I, I think what we’re supposed to believe, you know, Tothler’s not really a soldier anyway. I mean, he’s more of a timid kind of minister kind of guy, but he’s armed, you know, he’s carrying a rifle. He has a rifle. And he does it, in fact, when he goes to run, he throws it down on the ground. That’s right.

Todd: And takes off running. There’s no sense of self preservation. And at this point, the music turns to this, like, almost banjo y, run through the woods kind of music. It changes the tone entirely to this, and it lightens it considerably. By this time, the other two have come out, and they’ve seen him running after them, so they’re chasing him too.

So we get this running through the woods scene where Rike and Lloyd are chasing Calhoun, who is chasing Toffler. At this point, you start to get the sense that there’s something supernatural about They’re seeing him, but he’s not there. He’s really hard to find. Right. And then, it seems like he can cover great distances without them noticing, 

Craig: and with them noticing him.

And he can kind of appear and disappear without, I mean, literally appear and disappear. Like, he’s there one second, and then he’s gone the next. Exactly. And that’s when I started thinking, Vampire. I mean, this, this, this seems pretty classical vampire. They stumble upon Toffler. He’s dead. It looks like Calhoun maybe had a little snack.

Um, his, his abdomen’s all kind of ripped up and they keep chasing after him. And again, he’s doing that kind of appear, disappear, cat and mouse kind of thing. They end up confronting him on this cliff, this great big, huge cliff. It’s a great setting. Yeah. Oh yeah. It was beautiful. And I don’t remember exactly, I don’t remember how it happened, but Calhoun, how does Cal, he kills, kills Right.

Or he stabs him. Yeah. 

Todd: He runs up and stabs. I think he just comes out of nowhere, essentially, uh, and stabs Reich and he falls right over the edge. Right. Of this huge cliff. And Reich is the guy who you’re thinking, if anybody could take this guy on, he’s going to be the one in the company who can do it.

Right. So he’s dispatched pretty quickly, and once he falls over the cliff, you’re thinking, well, there’s no way he’s alive. Right. And that leaves the two of them on the cliff, and immediately, Boyd shoots him in the shoulder. And, you know, it’s a rifle blast right from close range. 

Craig: Like 10 feet away, 

Todd: maybe.

He falls backwards and just to the ground. And then Boyd sort of looks over the edge to try to see if Reich is there, doesn’t really know what to do. Starts to approach Calhoun. And Calhoun just sits up immediately and starts laughing. Mm-Hmm. . And that point in the movie Give Gives me a chills a little bit.

Yeah. Now you know, you’re dealing with the absolute supernatural. Right? It’s, and now they’re right there at the edge of the cliff. He backs ’em up and there’s nothing Boyd can do except leap off the 

Craig: cliff. Well, and again, I mean, he’s, I think it’s. reiterating the fact that he really is a coward. Like he just wants to get away and he, he jumps out.

I mean, it’s a huge cliff that we’re talking about folks. Like they’re looking down on these huge pine trees. And I figured that this was, was what’s going to happen. Is it, is it realistic? I don’t know. Uh, according to the laws of physics, I think it’s probably possible, but I knew this was what was going to happen.

He jumped off the cliff and like right into one of these big tall pine trees. So the tree. slows his descent all the way down and then he hits the ground and he starts rolling and again It’s kind of funny because he rolls directly over the body of reich and then reich starts rolling with them Like they’re rolling in this big pinwheel 

Todd: It’s it’s a comical it becomes comical just in how badly it’s it’s like a bruce campbell evil dead situation How badly this guy’s getting beat up that he’s still able to survive 

Craig: it.

Right. But it, I thought that it balanced it really well. It didn’t push it to the level where it seemed hokey. No, not at all. It was just little kind of clever winks and nods. It wasn’t too much. And I think that it really easily could have gone too far into that territory. I think they balanced it well.

Yes, 

Todd: exactly. This is no Zombieland or anything like that. It’s a black comedy, which we call black comedy. So, yeah, he falls down and into what must be a big hole in the ground or, you know, with the brush covering it because he’s fairly well hidden. And, at this point, Calhoun comes back down and he’s looking for them.

Now, he’s down in here with the body of Rike and trying not to make a noise. In the meantime, he has this broken leg. You can see the bone jutting out from it. It’s, I mean, that hurts almost more than anything else. I don’t know, you can see people getting their heads cut off and stuff, but once you see a broken hand You see the willies.

And, at this point, you feel like Calhoun is just playing with him, because he can smell. Uh huh. He’s smelling. He can, he’s standing right over at him and he’s smelling, and he just chooses to walk along. Right. And walk away. I’m pretty sure that he knew he was there. That was my take on it anyway. Yeah. But he wasn’t ready to dispatch him just yet.

He had other bodies to deal with. 

Craig: Yeah, I don’t know. I, I don’t know if I thought that he knew that he was there or not. Cause later on, he says, I found your buddy Reich, but I mean that’s neither, that’s neither here nor there. It’s possible, who knows. Yeah, who knows. But anyway, then there’s just kind of like this little montage where they have to let us know that time is passing, and we see the people back at camp, David Arquette and the native woman had gone out before Calhoun had even arrived, but they’re back now.

We see Calhoun enjoying his meals, like really relishing and just seeing what he’s doing. Sitting by the river and eating out bones. Right, right. Um, skipping stones along the water, you know, just very casual. And it’s clear that days are passing and, um, Boyd is still down there in the hole, uh, with Rike’s body.

And at some point he Sticks it like he straightens his bone. He sticks his bone back in, which is hilarious. People do this in movies all the time. I don’t believe it for a second. There is no way that you could do that to yourself. Now, somebody else doing it to you while somebody else held you down.

That’s one thing, but doing it yourself, I can’t believe that. Um, it was pretty obvious that he was in trouble down there and he’s, he kind of talks to the, to Reich’s body and whatnot. And I saw it coming, you know, eventually he was going to have to eat him and eventually. And that 

Todd: clearly gives him the strength that he needs to come 

Craig: out.

To walk back a three days walk on a broken leg. Yup. 

Todd: Exactly. And that’s interesting because he doesn’t want to do this. But he is forced to do this. So it, at some level, these survival cannibal movies always talk about this shady morality. What would you do to survive if you think it’s wrong to eat another person?

Well, get in that position where you have no other choice. And this poor guy is, uh, he knows that by eating a little bit of this guy, he is going to have the strength to get back. So he has even more of a dilemma, um, or even less of a choice maybe. I mean, if you know that it’s going to save you, it maybe becomes a 

Craig: little easier to do that.

Well, and he says, you know, he kind of, he, he talks to the body and he says, what should we do? I need you to tell me what to do. And then, you know, seconds later, more time has passed, but he goes over, crawls over to the body and he kind of looks him in the face and says, you’re dead. You’re dead. You’re safe.

Like, like he’s justifying it to himself. Like this isn’t going to hurt you. It’s just going to save me. And I can imagine that that probably. If you were in a life or death situation where you were either going to starve to death unless you ate something, you, you probably would start to rationalize a little bit.

I, I would imagine. Well, and now, you 

Todd: know, if, if, uh, if eating somebody meant that you could be like, superhuman, right? , we, we’d see a lot more cannibals in this world. Uh. Anyway, they, uh, they, he escapes, he makes it back to the camp. Uh, and the next scenes we see are him trying to explain this to the, again, that colonel, um, the one from the beginning, the, from the one from the beginning, who’s ba who’s at the camp.

It’s like, I, I don’t believe a word of it. We had people go down there. There’s nothing in the cave, there’s nothing anywhere around. All I know is that you have, uh, three men in your company missing, and, uh, I need a better explanation than this. Of course, he is unwilling or unable to provide it right away.

Craig: You know, he’s, he’s telling the story and he’s telling the truth of what we know actually happened, but the guy doesn’t believe him and he says, well, fine, whatever, but we have to set up new leadership here at least temporarily until we can get a new, uh, captain in. So here’s your new leader. It’s Colonel Ives.

And this was one of the parts that I didn’t see coming. I mean, I think you can put two and two together later, but in walks Calhoun in full military regalia. It’s pretty shocking, isn’t it? Yeah, it’s shocking. It is shocking. And I’m really not sure how I can’t kind of put the pieces together here. How did this head colonel or whoever come across Ives.

You know, if he’s been living out there in a cave for the last three months or whatever, as he said, how does he now suddenly appear and is being put in charge of this outpost? Yeah. Maybe it’s just because it’s such, they don’t care about this outpost at all that just as somebody raises their hand, I’ll do it.

You know, like it could be, 

Todd: you know, who knows what the army’s like. It’s a big place. But 

Craig: anyway, so obviously Boyd recognizes him, knows who he is. And he tells them that’s him. That’s Calhoun, but they don’t believe him. And he says, well, ask Knox. Knox was here. You know, he saw him. 

Todd: Fortunately, Knox was drunk, wasted, wasted at the time and absolutely was no help at all.

So you’ve got Knox who, who was too wasted to be able to recognize him. And then you have, uh, Martha and Cleaves who were 

Craig: gone. Right. So they didn’t see him at all. They don’t even know if the story is true. They don’t even know if there really was a guy. I mean, I guess that Knox can confirm that there was some guy, but that’s all he knows.

Yeah, he’s like, I think he had 

Todd: a beard, but 

Craig: that’s all I can remember. Right. And so they say, well, you said you shot him in the shoulder, and if you shot him in the shoulder, there would be a mark. So they make Ives take off, you know, expose his shoulders, and there’s nothing there. Um, but we know by this point that, Eating people helps them to heal more quickly.

So it makes sense from our perspective. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s really interesting. I also did not see that part coming at all. You couldn’t have imagined he would have been so bold and brazen as to come back as a soldier. And now he is just completely toying with his life. Well, 

Craig: and at that point, you know, like I said, this is the first time I’ve seen it.

I wasn’t exactly sure what was going on. I was thinking, is it the same guy? You know, like, or maybe is Boyd crazy? Maybe did Boyd go out there and kill 

Todd: all these people? Yeah, is this gonna be one of those? Kind of movies, 

Craig: right? Yeah. You do wonder. I, I wasn’t sure. But again, the movie moves so quickly as soon basically as Ives has convinced everybody else that he is who he says he is.

And he is not this Calhoun character, the first, and, you know, Boyd is really on edge. And of course everybody’s paranoid about him because he went out in the woods with all these people and none of the rest of ’em came back. So they think he may have had something to do with it. Um, but the, the very first time that Boyd and Iza.

Alone together, Ives just spills it. You know like, Yep, that was me! Yeah. I eat people. 

Todd: Yeah he has a long speech where he tells them that morale. You know, basically Boyd saying it’s wrong and Ives saying but didn’t you enjoy it? Can’t you tell, you know what the strength that you get And, and Ives tells him morality is the last bastion of the weak.

Um, and that hits Boyd where it hurts. ’cause he knows he’s the weakest of all of them. Right? Um, it becomes this bit of a morality play where, um, where Ives is making a case for this and saying, what choice do you have essentially? And, uh, don’t you want this? And Boyd is clearly. Not only because he’s eaten the meat, so he has the craving for it, but he’s fighting it like so badly.

He doesn’t want to be that guy. He’s 

Craig: fighting it. But like with vampires, the longer he’s gone without the weaker he’s becoming. And you see that in his makeup and he, you know, he looks really haggard. And at one point he swipes his knife at Ives and cuts him and Ives kind of holds it out. And it’s like, You smell it?

The scent always jogs the memory, 

Todd: don’t you think?

Craig: Remember the energy? The potency of someone else coursing through your veins. Someone brave. 

Todd: Not the 

Craig: disappointment as it dissipates. Strength slipping from your grasp. Growing, killing need to replenish.

I don’t have to remind you of that. You’re feeling it right now. And this was another reason why I thought, Oh my gosh, this is such a vampire movie, because there is so much homoerotic tension between Ives and Harker and Boyd. There really is. Oh my god, so much. It’s, it’s It’s not inconspicuous at all. And that, again, is, you know, you’ll find that.

You find that. You know, I’m thinking, and what’s his name, Boyd, almost even has kind of a Brad Pitt look about him. It was almost reminiscent of like Interview with the Vampire or something where you still have, you have those similar themes. 

Todd: Well, they’re both attractive people. Yeah. You know, I think Boydy and Ives both are, uh, are nice looking guys.

So yeah, you’re right, and he’s the head vampire toying with Boyd and trying to bring him in the fold, but again, like these vampire films, it is a seduction. It’s not a take you by force kind of thing. Yeah, 

Craig: and again, you’re right, it begs the question of morality. You know, if that’s what you have to do to survive, you have to, how is that right or wrong?

And it is, you know, he, it’s appealing. Ives, you know, kind of tells his story that he had tuberculosis, he had these terrible headaches, he was getting ready to go to a sanatorium to just convalesce and die. But then he talked to this Indian guide or shaman or something who told him this thing about the Wendigo and he thought, Well, gosh, yeah, that, that, I ought to give that a try.

So he ate the shaman. I 

Todd: tried him first. 

Craig: And he said, and it worked. He said, my tuberculosis went away, I feel great. He said, before this I was depressed. He’s like, now I’m happy. Everything’s 

Todd: good. I ate five people. More better than before. 

Craig: And it is seductive, especially for someone who is Suffering because, you know, they are having these ravenous cravings and, and, uh, aren’t succumbing to them.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. He’s really in over his head and he really is kind of at a point of no return, although he’s not ready to admit it to himself yet. He’d still has that morality holding him back. Mm hmm. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, and you’re right, it does call into question, well, what is that morality really? Even 

Craig: though we see, like, he has in his mind fantasies, like, he fantasizes about killing David Arquette’s character.

Um, and I assumed it was a fantasy, but the movie plays it like, maybe it’s really happening, and then it cuts back, and we see that it’s not really happening. Yeah. But, because he cut, uh, Ives, The other people at the post, Knox, puts him under arrest and they tie him up. And then, it’s, it’s, it’s really funny, um, Ive starts making this stew.

Like he’s chopping carrots and onions and things and he’s Throwing him in this huge cauldron. 

Todd: It’s, it’s so cute. It’s sort of a take off of old school. I’m talking like 1930s, 40s style cannibal movies. 

Craig: Where there’s a giant pot. Right, the natives boiling you in it. And Nox says something like What are you, cooking?

It’s, uh, stew. You need any help? No, no, though, uh, perhaps later you might contribute. 

Todd: You let me know.

That’s so good. Martha is going around, she’s investigating, and she discovers the horses have been slaughtered. And? And then walks to the window and looks in at Boyd. Boyd is trying to communicate with her and blood drops onto her face. And Arquette’s character, Cleaves, is dead too and on the roof. So he’s been killed.

Kind of mangled. He’s been killed and they believe that it’s him. Boyd. Right. Who’s done this and that’s why they’ve 

Craig: tied him up. They send Martha away, right? Like Martha has to go get some 

Todd: general. Right, they’re gonna basically get a general to arrest Boyd. And take him to prison. And take him to prison.

So, you can tell that he’s whittling down the ranks, but you’re also left with this nagging question and that is that Boyd has been watching him this whole time. We’ve known where he is. Is he really that supernatural that he’s killed these horses and this guy without, in some way, without us 

Craig: knowing?

Right. And, and Boyd, he asks, he says, How did you do it? You know, I was watching you the whole time. And this was another twist that I didn’t see coming. Oh yeah, 

Todd: nobody would. Yeah, from a mile away. Uh, the doctor guy, I mean, it’s really, it’s just the doctor, Boyd, and Ives. Ives at this point. He says, Hey, have you seen my sword?

It’s missing from over the top. And I love that shot where in the background, there are the two swords crossed over the mantle, but where the one sword’s supposed to be, it’s like a wall is just a little cleaner. Like, okay, could it be more obvious? Right. Uh, and he says, Hey, where’s my sword? Oh, I don’t know.

I didn’t take your sword. And he walks into another room and then there’s a figure there with the sword. Nox looks up and goes, Oh, my word, you make some exclamation. And at that point, the figure cuts him down with the sword. And then what do we see next? The door opens into where Boyd is staying and in walks Colonel 

Craig: Hart.

Yeah, looking healthier than ever. Yeah, vibrant. And the last time that we had seen him, I mean, not only had Ives stabbed him in the gut, but like he had pulled it up, like he was gutting him. And the last time we had seen him, he was still alive. But, like, he was bleeding profusely from the mouth, and, um, there was no question in your mind that he was gonna die.

Yes, but he explains he says, you know, I I thought I was gonna die I was feeling panic knowing that my life was slipping away and then I blacked out and when I woke up Ives was feeding me and at that point it was the point of no return. I was feeling better I had I had no choice but to go along with it.

And so now the two of them have 

Todd: been working together Yeah, now I felt great. And so you’re kind of wondering what’s gonna happen to him. He basically tells him So you’re going to kill me. No, 

Craig: no, no. It’s lonely being accountable. Tough making friends.

And he, you know, like I said, I, Jeffrey Jones, he can deliver lines like that and it’s completely straight way. And they’re still so funny. Yes. I laughed out loud 

Todd: at that part. It’s great. So their idea is that they’re basically going to feed him, uh, the body of Knox essentially, and probably, um, um, Cuck.

Probably Cleaves as well, whoever they put in this stew. Right. And so all three of them are in the room, and they’re sitting there and trying to get him to eat the stew. Well, 

Craig: before that, Ives is again trying to convince Boyd, you know, We’re just gonna be our own little community, and you know that Oh, that’s right.

When the summertime comes, you know, the gold rush is gonna come through, and people are gonna be coming straight through here all the time, and, um, Of course we’ll kill, we have to kill, but we’ll be selective, and we don’t wanna break up things. families and things. Um, join us. And boy basically says, no, I, I’m not going to.

And so I’ve stabs him. And he basically says, that doesn’t have to be a mortal wound. You know what you have to do if you want to live. And so then they all sit, they sit him down and they sit around the two other men start eating the stew. And again, heart says, isn’t this civilized?

Todd: So 

Craig: funny. Yeah. But basically, Again, um, Ives just keeps saying, You know what you have to do if you want to live. Boyd is really bleeding, I mean, you see the blood just flowing from his wound. And so he eats. 

Todd: Yep, and it isn’t easy for him. He’s really struggling with it, but he does eat. And Guy Pearce is a vegetarian, so it was also pretty hard for the actor himself.

Um, my understanding is that he was spitting out, uh, the meat between takes, but the stew looked really good. 

Craig: It did look really good. That’s kind of another odd side effect, I guess, of this vampirism, is that once they have, once they’ve tasted human flesh, then they are kind of disgusted by animal flesh.

There’s a 

Todd: comment made earlier about that. Yeah, 

Craig: I’ve said, like. Somebody offered him some ribs. Right. And they say, don’t you eat meat? And he says, no, I can’t help but always remember that it was an animal. Um, which sounds like, you know, a very vegan kind of thing, but it’s more, I think what he means is that’s gross.

Like, you know, I, now that I’ve had the good stuff, I’m not going to go back to gross animals. Animal, yeah. 

Todd: So he does eat and, uh, gets a little better, but they’ve still got him tied up, uh, cause they’re not sure they can trust him. Colonel Hart comes in and has some discussion 

Craig: with him. Yeah, and this is where I really felt, I knew that the movie was coming to an end.

And I kind of felt like the ending was rushed a little 

Todd: bit. I do too. This scene here was the part that, if I was going to criticize this film, I thought this scene didn’t make a lot of sense. Or if it did, it wasn’t set up 

Craig: properly. Well, it’s like, you know, Hart is trying to convince Boyd, join us, be with us, you know, you have to kill people, that’s it.

And then Boyd says, Let me go, I’m gonna kill him, and Hart does let him go, and says, Okay, but before you kill him, you have to kill me, I can’t live like this anymore. It’s like it took no convincing at all. Yeah, 

Todd: for him to have this turn of heart. It’s very strange that he could go through and he could kill Knox, he could do all this stuff, but now suddenly he feels like it’s gone too far in some 

Craig: way.

Right, it’s like 

Todd: And he didn’t come It happened too 

Craig: quickly. And there’s some point where he’s like carrying the remains of the bones out to like throw in the trash or whatever and like he’s he doesn’t seem to be bothered by it at all. He’s very nonchalant, yes. Yeah. So it’s kind of an odd situation. And quick change of character where he says, Oh, please kill me.

I can’t, I can’t live like this anymore. It kind of comes out of left field. It does. 

Todd: Yeah, that’s pretty weak, but he kills him. And then that begins the final battle where, uh, Ives comes in. Uh, by the way, Ives has been up on the, uh, in one of the towers with his binocular, with his, uh, telescope. And he’s seen the.

company coming back, the people that they basically sent for. The general, right? The general is like, ah, breakfast, lunch, and supplies. But they must be really far away. I know. Really slow. Are they stopped for a bite on the way or something like that? Because 

Craig: they don’t seem to be that far away. Like he can see them with his blind eye.

And they’re on horseback, so it’s not like they’re just walking, but 

Todd: whatever. Somebody must have stumbled, or you know, they had to stop and deal with something, who knows. Anyway, there’s this really long, protracted battle scene where they just beat the crap out of each other. And this is part of the dark comedy, you know, to my mind anyway, is it gets a little more and more ridiculous as they’re going around fighting.

Somebody stabbed somebody a few times and somebody said like a pitchfork and then, uh, they’re whacking each other with wood and with cutting his arm with an ax and the big, eventually, um, Boyd gets out and Ives is what looks like maybe out for the count and he drops the whole roof of this shed on him and walks into another room where we had previously seen they were big bear traps.

And of course Ives breaks out from underneath the wood, runs in there and they have this little moment again. Another one of those erotic tension scenes where they’re face to face and shoulder to shoulder and Boyd just grabs him and Flips him down on the ground and puts them both into a giant bear trap like for the largest bear in the world.

Yeah 

Craig: Yeah, and so they’re pinned there Boyd on top of, uh, Ives. I mean, it couldn’t really get, you know, this, this couldn’t have been unintentional. Um, I also, uh, read that, uh, initially this scene was intended to take place, the last battle was intended to take place on the rooftops of the, the buildings, uh, in where they are.

At night. At night, right, while the whole thing was going up in flames. Oof. They just decided at the last minute, no, let’s just beat the crap out of each other. And they choreographed it themselves and, uh, and it’s, it’s It’s, it’s interesting that that’s the way that they ended 

Todd: up. Yeah, it is. And there’s still a little bit of humor in there.

That was really sneaky. Yeah. Right. As he, but as his dying breath is coming, I’ve says, so if you die first, I’m going to eat you. But if I die first, you’re going to have to ask yourself, are you going to eat me? Yeah. Bon Appetit. Right. 

Craig: And then, uh, he does die first, Ives does. And I’m wondering, you know, uh, the, oh, and more humor.

Martha and the general do arrive and the general’s looking around and he finds the stew, um, and he smells it and he smells it and it smells good. And then he eats it. And of course we know that now he’s infected or whatever. It’s inconsequential. It’s, it’s kind of just, you know, something a little silly there at the end.

One of those cute 

Todd: moments where this will continue on. 

Craig: Right. And then Martha, I thought this was funny too. Martha opens the door and sees, um, Ives dead and Boyd dying and she turns around and just like, And I’m done with this. And she just leaves. Like she just walks out of the encampment altogether. She sure does.

And I really wondered if Boyd was going to eat him. And I wouldn’t have been surprised either way. But he doesn’t. He 

Todd: doesn’t. He chooses that path to end it here. Yeah, 

Craig: and that kind of calls back, you know, the very, very first thing that we see before we even see any actors, um, on a black screen, there’s a quote from Nietzsche, um, and I, I was writing it down quickly, so it may not be word for word, but, um, it was something like, He that fights with monsters.

should see that he doesn’t become a monster himself. Um, and that’s kind of the defining moment here at the end. You know, he’s battled this monster, he’s won. Does he die honorably or does he save himself, you know, by eating? And he chooses, I guess. What we’re supposed to see as the nobler option. 

Todd: Yeah, I, I, I love this film.

Uh, my understanding is that the film was beset with quite a few production problems, considerable production problems, uh, as it started out for the first few weeks of filming, um, had a lot of turnover, had a lot of rewrites done. It’s. It’s good that a good film came out of that process. Normally it’s not, but there was a change in director on the screenwriter.

Ted Griffith actually went on to do Ocean’s 11 after this, he wrote that. So, uh, but not much else afterwards. Antonio Bird, who came in to direct it, she hasn’t done a whole lot recognizable. She’s done some TV work. I think she’s doing some work on the village right now and stuff like that. Just a diamond in the rough, as far as I’m concerned of horror films, uh, not super famous people working on it.

Lots of famous people in the parts, but no Tom Cruises or anything, 

Craig: right? And that was, again, I’m a little bit surprised because virtually all of these actors are actors that you’re going to recognize. So I’m a little bit surprised that it, even though like you said, there’s not that, you know, Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, the big blockbuster name.

I mean, these are quality working actors here. So yeah, it’s a little bit surprising. 

Todd: Yeah, I love it. I love this movie to death. I love watching it a lot. I love introducing people to it because it is so unusual and You’re right, it is at its heart a vampire movie. Um, but it does try to put a cannibal type twist on it.

And we were talking earlier, seeing a couple cannibal films, about how you can’t really do much with the cannibal genre. Right. And here’s a spot where at least if you don’t make the cannibals native tribes out in some wilderness, uh, you can cannibalism, mixing it with, uh, In this case, you know, vampirism or something else, right?

Craig: Well, and I think that that’s, you know, a really unique and interesting thing that this movie does is that really at its core, it is a vampire movie, but the word vampire is never spoken. It’s almost as though, you know, these people just don’t even recognize that lore. You know, it’s the same kind of thing.

They just attribute it to something else. And that’s creative. I mean, it would have been. Very easy to just say, okay, they’re vampires, but they, they tweaked it a little bit and that’s, that’s creative. And I appreciate uniqueness in horror films. Isn’t this the 

Todd: second movie too we’ve seen that had the Wendigo legend?

Yeah. 

Craig: We talked about Pet Sematary a week or two ago and it’s not really, uh, expressed in the movie so much. They explore it more in the book, but yeah, I’ve, I’ve heard of that legend. In lots of places both in fiction and nonfiction. So it’s an interesting lore to pull from. Yeah, I liked it Todd You know, frankly, like I said, I wasn’t really looking forward to it I picked the last couple so I wanted you to have complete freedom of what we chose and I I just thought You know old fashioned war movie But I really liked it, and I would watch it again.

I probably will watch it again. So, 

Todd: thanks! You’re welcome, and you know, if you really did like it, I’m telling you, those, if you get the DVD, those commentaries are really 

Craig: quite good. Yeah, I heard there were deleted scenes, too. Did you 

Todd: There are some, yeah. I don’t remember, but yeah, 

Craig: there were. Yeah, I read that, um Well, and this isn’t any expert, you know, this is just comment boards, but, uh, people said that the, uh, the deleted scenes are, are really quite good, and they actually give some more backstory into, um, some of the other characters like Rike, um, and I guess it kind of explains why Rike has such hostility towards Boyd, which you do see in the movie, but it’s not really explained, um, and somebody, you know, there’s more homoerotic and stuff to, um, what I read.

And again, I, this isn’t coming from an authority, but I read that they cut it just for time. Um, they wanted it to have no longer than a hundred minute runtime. And so they had to leave some things on the 

Todd: floor when you’re right. And as a result, the movie, as you said, moves, it does. It really 

Craig: does. It’s not a boring movie.

And we had been watching it for, I think, Almost an hour, like I looked at my watch and it had been like 50 minutes and I was like, holy crap, it feels like we’ve only been watching this for like 20 minutes. Like it does, it’s, it doesn’t feel like it’s not a long movie, but it certainly doesn’t feel like one.

It keeps moving. The story keeps progressing. Well, I 

Todd: think we’re almost half an hour into the movie before Boyd even utters a word. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but you don’t notice. Right. Well, thank you again for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. Like us on Facebook. We’re on Stitcher and iTunes if you want to subscribe to us.

Leave us a note somewhere. Tell us what you think and give us some suggestions of other films to watch. Until next week, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

It’s Todd’s turn to pull a favorite off the shelf with this delightfully absurd horror comedy from writer-director Jim Wynorski.

Sorority House Massacre 2 (1990)

Episode 32, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: I’m Craig.

Todd: Today, we decided to, do another Jim Wynorski film. I treated Craig to shopping mall the last time we, dove into this man’s. Right. And, I thought would treat him to what is actually, I have to admit, one of my all time favorite horror movies. Really? Yes.   Sorority House Massacre 2. Now We did, Pet Sematary. Uh-huh. You have fond memories of Pet Sematary. Right. 

Craig:  It’s linked with your childhood. 

Todd:  Sure. So picture, if you will, Teenage boy. 

Craig:  I was gonna say, did you first see this when you’re about 12, 13? 

Todd:  The the age is very important. Yeah. Teenage boy, with his friends, and we would get together for what we called stupid movie nights. 

Craig:  Uh-huh. 

Todd:  And we’ve talked about this before about how cool it is Todd walk through the old video stores and just look at the covers of things and rent them just based on the descriptions on the back And the ghoulish or weird, pictures on the front. Uh-huh. That was our tradition, basically, in high school. Friday nights, me and a couple of our friends would get together, and we’d go out and rent these films. Now remember, and it’s not hard to go back to these times when you didn’t have The Internet. Right. You couldn’t go to IMDB and see what other people thought of these films. You had no idea.   So we rented what we thought was gonna be a pretty straightforward horror film called Sorority House Massacre 2. And we watched it, and we were Totally shocked all the way through. Not only did it turn out to be the perfect stupid movie night movie because the best stupid movie night movies are the movies you can make fun of. Right. But by the end of it, you realized, oh, they’re in on the joke too. It’s not a totally incompetent film. It’s really trying to be what it is. It’s almost not accidentally what it is in in in in a way.   You know what I mean? Yeah. Hell, yeah. And again, this is back in a time before these self aware, ironic horror films that we get that are just part and parcel right now. So maybe through the lens of today, this film wouldn’t give me such joy As it as it’s given me throughout the years. So I have to preface all that with that in mind, because you gave me a look once I said. This is one of my all time favorites. But I get such a guilty pleasure from watching this movie just the same way I get guilty pleasures from watching Godzilla or or something like that. It’s It’s not because it’s a well made film.   It’s because it’s a film that tickles a certain place in my heart. Gotcha. Does that make sense? 

Craig:  It does make sense. You know, I have movies like that Todd the you know, looking back, I know that they’re not good movies, but I still you know, there’s a I have a fondness for them for nostalgic purposes or reasons or whatever. And I can definitely see why a group of 14 year old boys would would really enjoy this movie. Less so my cup of tea, but, I I I can I can I can see that? 

Todd:  Well, I’ve I’ve revealed my love for Jim. It always has to come with sort of a a caveat, a little asterisk by it because he’s a very prolific filmmaker in the low budget film realm. I talked about it maybe a little bit when we were talking about shopping mall, but for those who might not have heard that episode, this guy grew up loving these, Much like me, just loving and and appreciating and enjoying these low budget horror films of the fifties sixties, particularly the ones that Roger Corman did. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And His dream, basically, was to work for Roger Corman, and by gosh, he did it. So he came in a little later to the game, about late eighties to early nineties. His first Film for Roger Corman’s pictures, was Not of This Earth, which was a remake of one of Roger Corman’s earlier films from the fifties, but, starring Craig Lourdes. Oh. The very first, non pornographic legitimate film role that Tracy Lourdes had was in Jim film, Notion of This Earth. So, and that’s not a bad movie. It’s a little more straight than this is, but because it’s A low budget film, it shows, it’s a little, you know, it’s a little ragged around the edges. But it’s very typical of Roger Films output from the late eighties to early nineties as is this movie.   So it was produced by Corman. Corman gave a start to a lot of famous people. The list is just enormous, you know, from Jack Nicholson to Ron Howard Todd Jim, James Cameron, all these people got their start in Roger Corman’s shop cranking out these movies. So, He ends up writing this horror script for this movie, sorority house massacre 2, which by the way has absolutely nothing to do with Sorority House Massacre 1. 

Craig:  So why okay. Do you know so why did they title it that? Is it just being ironic? Was it trying to Trying to I don’t know. I I don’t know if there was a fan base for part 1. 

Todd:  I honestly don’t know that either. There’s Probably an answer out there if you look online. My guess is that, again, though, Sorority House Master 1 maybe came out a year or 2 before this. It was moderately successful, and so, they just because you can use a title Yeah. Without permission, they just threw a 2 on it. Kinda piggybacks. But, yeah, this has nothing to do. If you watch Sorority House massacre 1, I believe I saw it a while back.   It was totally forgettable, but I couldn’t even recall the plot to you. Mhmm. Has nothing to do with this movie. Interestingly enough, though, this movie does have some flashback scenes in them. Right. And the flashback scenes are not from Sorority House massacre 1, they’re from a movie, which is interesting in its own right, called Slumber Party Massacre. Uh-huh. And there is a Slumber Party Massacre series with the driller killer, and I think the the third one is really out there.   It’s got a guy with a guitar. He’s like a dead goth kinda rocker guy ghost thing that has a drill at the end of his guitar. I don’t know. You might have seen the cover for it because it’s know. Oh, it’s an insane movie. But The sorority house, slumber party massacre 1 was written by the famous feminist author, Rita May Brown. You’re kidding. I am not kidding you.   So it’s interesting. You know, you should look up the history for that film as well. It’s interesting that this This feminist author would write this film, which is basically about a bunch of women in various states of unrest getting killed, and and then that, They must have gotten the rights to it. That’s all I can say Uh-huh. To the footage, and it must have been pretty cheap. They used that instead of filming their own Flashback footage. 

Craig:  Well and it’s funny because it’s obvious because as as this guy is, like, giving the backstory of this house, These, 5 sorority girls buy this old kind of rundown mansion, and they’re gonna make it their sorority house. And They get in there. It’s all dilapidated or whatever, and then this creepy neighbor shows up, Orville Ketchum, and he’s this big, fat I hate to judge people based on their appearance, but he’s a gross looking guy, like, all pockmarked and sweaty and 

Todd:  Got a big flannel shirt on to take care of himself. 

Craig:  Like, slack jawed. Like, he’s always got his mouth hanging open. And, of course, they are scared by him. But he comes in and he tells them this whole story what had happened in this house 5 years ago, which is why it was so cheap and they were able to get it. They were all kind of aware that these murders had happened, but they only one of them, the one who the house knew that this was the actual house. And, Ketchum comes over and tells them the whole story, and that’s when the flashback happens. Mhmm. But you can tell The narrative that he’s telling doesn’t match up with the flashbacks.   Like, he says something like, first, he killed his wife, And it’s obviously like a Todd, you know, like a 20 something girl, then he’s like and then he killed his daughters. Again, more coeds, exactly the same age as the girl who was supposed to be the mom. And it just, like Yeah. I I guess it it fits well enough, like, if you really care, but, it’s it’s clear that The the images you’re seeing in the narrative he’s telling are not 1 in the same. 

Todd:  Yeah. And and it’s funny. And the girls, even from the beginning, I think, are Acting is clearly not good. 

Craig:  Oh my gosh. Yeah. It’s bad. 

Todd:  It’s not a good honestly, there’s not a good actor in this whole film. No. They’re all delivering their lines, and it’s The script itself is a little silly too. Yeah. Much like chopping mall, it has a lot of jokes deliberately written in. Most of them are Corny. 

Craig:  Very corny. And and the delivery makes it even more corny because it’s not well Todd, and so it just seems like Really forced poor acting that’s laughable. I mean, you you you literally laugh out loud. It’s so it’s so goofy. 

Todd:  Yeah. The jokes are goofy, then the laughing is goofy on Todd. Like, they’re reading them off of title cards or something Yeah. On the side. Right? Yeah. 

Craig:  I don’t remember. There was something like, in the beginning, they’re like 

Clip:  See, the movers aren’t coming till 6 AM in the morning. Same time the phone and the electric people are coming. Oh, come on. It’ll be fun. Whoopie. Oh, just like camping out only without all the bugs. I don’t know about that. Oh, come on, girls.   Look. We have here. We have, like, peanut butter. We have crackers, and we even have popcorn. 

Craig:  Just the the silliest delivery of lines that Oh, it’s it’s it’s funny. 

Todd:  Yeah. Even before all this, it starts off with, like, a little bitty flashbacks of the girls sitting cowering in the corner. Linda, I believe, who’s the Australian woman. I think, at least, that’s what her accent seems to be true. Like it. You’ve got to try to remember. Try to remember. And then we get these girls, of course, coming up to the house with all the crazy dialogue.   We have, Jess, Jessica, who’s the tallest of the group. Mhmm. She’s played by Melissa Moore. Now If you’re familiar with films of this era and if you watched a lot of USA Up All Nights probably, a lot of these kinds of films would come across, and Melissa Moore is Kind of a a standby in this arena. A a bit of a scream queen from the late eighties, early nineties. Yeah. 

Craig:  She looked kind of familiar. I mean, and maybe She was just recognizable because she is so tall, especially against some of these other girls. Like, she kinda looms over them. She did. You know? I I feel like she did, like you said, a bunch of those movies where it’s cheerleaders with big boobs. 

Todd:  Mhmm. You know? Exactly. Moderately attractive. Not a knockout, but but a cute girl. 

Craig:  Well, all these girls look like lingerie models. Yes. I mean, they’ve all they’ve all got, you know, great big boobs, like, Huge boobs whether 

Todd:  they’re real or not. Right. Some are clearly real. Some are clearly not real. 

Craig:  You get 

Todd:  to see 

Craig:  them all. Oh, all of them. Yeah. There’s a segment. You know, after they decide that they’re gonna stay, They hold a seance, to try to contact the the killer from before. His name was what was his name? Clive Hockstetter. Clive Hockstetter. Sarah? 

Todd:  You hear a lot in this film. Oh, yeah. 

Craig:  They say it, like, every 2 seconds. I can’t believe I couldn’t remember. But they try to have a seance, which lasts all of about 20 seconds, but it’s like when they say they wanna try to contact him, the planchette or whatever it is shoots off the board and into the fire, And they all scream, and Janie, the girl who found the house was like, oh, their lightning must have hit the house and caused a big power surge. Okay. And they’re all like, 

Todd:  yeah. That’d be great. 

Craig:  And then after that, there’s probably a good at least 5 minutes montage of them just Getting undressed, taking showers, you know 

Todd:  This is charming point number 1 of this film for me because I feel like this movie is a distillation of all the movies like it. Uh-huh. It took all the movies like it and really brought it down to its core and included All the necessary items and made no bones about it. Right. It it wears its heart on its sleeve, and that is what I find so charming about this movie. Yeah. Of course, you have to have the nudity. Right? Mhmm.   So instead of sprinkling the nudity throughout the movie or giving really good reasons for it, it’s just All in a lineup. All in a row. Yeah. Scene 1, girl’s taking a really long shower. 

Craig:  And she’s she’s, like, very Insiduously, like, rubbing the soap, like, over her nipples. Like 

Todd:  but even even Still, there are these squeaking noises put in. Feel like the soap is squeaking over her skin. And, I mean, it’s 

Craig:  It is funny. And there were silly little sound bites like that throughout. Like, at one point, one of the girls, little redhead girl is, Rubbing, Linda’s I no. Excuse me. Janie’s back. Oh, yeah. And you hear, like, you hear, like, this big crack. It sounds like somebody, like, broke a huge stick in half, and the and the girl is getting the back rubs like, ah, that was the spot.   Like, just the Silly as sound effects that don’t make any sense that were clearly put in in post. Silly. 

Todd:  It was silly. Yeah. 

Craig:  And it was funny during that scene with, with them all, you know, taking their clothes off, getting in the shower, whatever. Usually, in this type of movie, there’s 1 girl Who doesn’t? You know you know what I’m saying? There’s usually 1 girl who is the modest one or who’s nice or who you know is gonna be the final girl, so she’s not gonna be the one who shows her boobs. Not here. No. No. Every single one of them, you get nice. Good look at their Well, 

Todd:  if you’re familiar with Jim Wynorski Stuff. You can tell that he’s way more interested in the TNA than almost anything else. 

Craig:  Well, in the stuff that he makes now or at least some of it is like soft or porn or hate. 

Todd:  It really isn’t. And that’s actually kinda sad. I think you look at some of his earlier movies like this, and they have this charm about them Even though they’re a little silly, there’s kind of an innocence to them in a way. There’s a lot of nudity, but there’s no sex. Right? And it’s Also so, I like like, it just so obviously is made to appeal to teenage boys Yeah. But but really no more. You know what I mean? It’s it’s really zeroed in on that target market because this is not something that, you know, like a heterosexual adult male, in his you know, our our age or whatever Right. Is really going to, get off on. 

Craig:  Right. Well, that’s the thing. You know, it was a different time. We grew up in the eighties, and We didn’t have the Internet. So, like That’s true. 

Todd:  You know, this this I 

Craig:  I remember, you know, staying up late, and it would be one of those things like, Not only did you get to see boobies, but it was like you were doing something naughty that your parents didn’t know about, and you were getting away with it. Forbidden. We weren’t as exposed to as much graphic Content as far as nudity and sex is concerned. I mean, I’m there are times when I kinda thank Todd I’m not a parent because I can’t imagine to what lengths you would have to go to to protect children from seeing things that they shouldn’t be seeing. 

Todd:  It’s got it’s a whole new world, man. It’s Todd be totally impossible. 

Craig:  So I I feel like this is kind of from a bygone era where They were kind of supplying a demand. You know? The people wanna see boobies. Let’s give them some boobies. 

Todd:  Well and yeah. And just taking your top off could sell a film. Yeah. You know, you would watch a movie like this just because, hey, the prospect of a a few girls are gonna get naked. Uh-huh. You know? It’s not gonna be graphic. I’m not gonna see sex or whatever, but I’m gonna see some And then Right. 

Craig:  Some squeaky clean boots. Yeah. And then not only do they all shower and, like, get dressed, but it’s they’re like in this rundown I mean, it’s not that rundown, but it’s dirty and, like, nobody’s been in there for 5 years. There’s cobwebs all over. They don’t have any, like, beds or anything to sleep on. But when they get ready for the nighttime in bed, they all put on, like, their finest lingerie. Like, g strings and, I don’t even know. 

Todd:  It’s the the most uncomfortable looking stuff like, yeah, like lingerie models. 

Craig:  And then, And then they just run around in that for the whole rest of 

Todd:  the movie. Like, it’s nothing. I’m pretty sure that women don’t actually do this when they have sleepovers. 

Craig:  That would 

Todd:  be my guess. But, not according to this film. It’s it’s all thongs and g strings and 

Craig:  Well, and this is what, you know, every adolescent boy wants to believe that girls do sleepovers. 

Todd:  The only thing it was missing was a pillow fight. 

Craig:  Yeah. I was waiting for 

Todd:  it. That’s if the only flaw in this movie for me is is the lack. I 

Craig:  right. And I or or maybe a little girl on girl kissing 

Todd:  or something like that. Curious. Right. 

Craig:  And I I almost thought we were gonna get that at the back rubbing scene. 

Todd:  That’s right. But I guess 

Craig:  that was good enough. 

Todd:  Well, that one takes a turn for the worse. It sets up our very first conflict for for the movie. Right. And that is A very, awkwardly forced conflict where the girl giving the back rub, who is Suzanne, is giving the back rub to Janie. Suzanne is talking about some boy. I believe it was, oh, oh, Janie’s like, where did you learn to give these backgrounds to Suzanne? Oh, a little something that I picked up from, Billy Maguire. And she’s like, Billy Maguire? Well, Billy Maguire and I kinda have a thing. She’s like, oh, you don’t have an exclusive on Billy McQuire. 

Clip:  And then 

Todd:  she gets up and runs out in the store and said, think I’m gonna go downstairs and have a drink. 

Craig:  And the other girl’s like, 

Clip:  what did I do? 

Craig:  Terrible dialogue. So funny. So after being introduced 

Todd:  to Orville Ketchum and, him menacingly kind of looking in from across the street, and we had even a shot of Tim, eating raw meat for Yeah. 

Craig:  He’s totally gross and a creeper. Yeah. And and then there’s also this totally pointless side Plot where there’s there’s a cop, and it doesn’t even make any sense. No. He says he says, you’re just Introduced out of nowhere to this cop and his partner, Mike and Phyllis or something like that. And Phyllis. And they are like, they’re headed somewhere, but then they get stopped because it’s storming and it’s raining, and I guess, like, the road is out or something. 

Todd:  One road that leads to the Hockstetter place, apparently 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  There’s too much rain on 

Craig:  And he says when he’s explaining it when Mike is explaining it to Phyllis, he’s like 

Clip:  That address you got tonight from dispatch?   69 34 Langdon. But wait. You’re not telling me that   Afraid I am. It’s the old Hockstetter place.   But Hockstetter’s dead. Setter’s dead.   He is, but there was another guy, a neighbor. 

Craig:  Doesn’t make any sense. No. Nobody called. And from there, they don’t even have a phone. 

Todd:  The phone is Right. Yes. 

Craig:  And then so, like, they investigate throughout, and he says the cops and I say throughout, they have maybe, I don’t know, 4 scenes Yeah. 

Todd:  Then they’re really brief. Maybe 3, actually. 

Craig:  And totally inconsequential. But he says something about, I always thought that Ketchum guy was in on it too. It’s it’s almost like they’re trying really, really hard to get us to think that it’s him when it’s obviously not. Like, you know, like, They’re they’re trying to make him out to be so menacing that there’s no way it’s gonna end up being him. Right. 

Todd:  It would be too obvious. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Yeah. And their acting is even worse, I think. Yeah. Actually, the girls sort of look like Academy Award winning material, compared to, Poor Phyllis and Mike. Yeah. And Phyllis cannot deliver a line to save her life. It’s So horrible. You’re right.   The side plot is totally goofy. I I know it’s gotta be just to pat out the running 

Craig:  It had to be. 

Todd:  And to set up the ending. Mhmm. It was the only reason. But there’s nothing suspenseful about it now with all the and and so what’s weird about it is then that Mike decides that he’s gonna go on, like, A second investigation of this crime that hap because he has a bad feeling, but they can’t reach the house. He’s gonna go to a strip club, 

Craig:  Which I’ve never been to a strip club. If they’re anything like this, I don’t wanna go. It’s gotta be a skisiest. It’s like all these It looked like they just, like, went to a truck stop and was like, do you wanna come to the free strip show? Okay. 

Todd:  For a moment. 

Craig:  All these guys who clearly Probably have never acted a day in their life, and they’re just acting so goofy. And this poor girl on stage is dancing, and, Oh, god. She’s not even a good she’s not even a good stripper. 

Todd:  She’s not. She hardly even takes off her clothes. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. We see the other girl’s boobs way more than we see the stripper’s Yeah. But it’s funny. It’s like, I I guess, apparently, she was one of the only survivors from the original massacre. And so he goes there he goes, of course, to the strip club where she works, as she’s performing, to talk 

Todd:  to her. I guess just in case There’s something that she didn’t reveal way back when they investigated this case? 

Craig:  Right. But there’s not. Like, so so the whole The whole scene is completely pointless. There’s no purpose to it whatsoever. Oh, thank you, candy. 

Todd:  Yeah. You get a bunch a couple of jokes in, and really the point was to Joe, 4 more boots. Mhmm. That was really the whole reason. Yep. 

Craig:  You get candy, and then you you were telling me something about the the other one, like their their their main stripper, Say, was there headliner? What were 

Todd:  you saying about that? Maybe the only, fair I mean, recognizable is kinda silly, but, the only name in this Film, she was a porn star, from the eighties. Her name was Savannah, and she has a very brief I mean, she just kinda comes on, takes her top off, spins around a little bit, and then she’s just in the background. But, yeah, I think this might be her only legitimate film role. And sadly, around this time period, maybe even shortly after this movie came out, she could kill herself. She’s gone to suicide. Bad. Yeah. So she’s probably the only name in this film, if you could call it that.   Yeah. So it’s just it’s just a bizarre subplot that really is transparently silly and horrible. 

Craig:  And you said to set up the end, but it really didn’t even need to. I mean No. The the the cop comes in at the end, but if if we had never seen him before, he would have just been It 

Todd:  wouldn’t have mattered. Top. Right. It wouldn’t 

Craig:  have mattered. You’re right. 

Todd:  He has no, bearing on the plot at all. So, Janie, goes downstairs, and she’s drinking her tequila. And as she 

Craig:  She takes, like, 6 shots of tequila. I sat there thinking, my Todd. If I drink that much kill that fast, first of all, I puke all over everything, and secondly, I’d be drunk off my ass. 

Todd:  Well, she did take a good 5 minutes of on screen time. 

Craig:  That’s what she came 

Todd:  up to. Just leading up and looking left and right, leading up and looking left and right, looking left and right, taking another swig. It’s like, get on with whatever is supposed to happen in this scene. And, a gloved black hand with a hook and clearly a a hooded, face. Yeah. It’s wrapped up like a ninja. Mhmm. Reaches over the counter or behind her and pulls her down, and then you see, which is a gonna be a common theme in this film, this shadow of a hook on the wall Mhmm.   Come down and blood squirt all over the the kitchen. Mhmm. And, of course, the noise and the guilt, apparently, Suzanne’s guilt of, sending Jamie off. She decides to get up out of bed, go downstairs, and can’t find her. Not only can she not find her, but the blood’s totally Yeah. 

Craig:  This is 5 seconds later. Yeah. Like, Immediately after this girl gets killed, the other girl comes down to look for it. She’s looking around. Blood. We had just seen blood spray all over the walls. Now they’re as clean as can be. Yeah.   It doesn’t make any sense. No. Like, if there was some sick I don’t know. I mean, later on kind of the twist, I guess, you see coming 400 miles away. The twist is that there is some supernatural things going on. So I guess maybe the supernatural housekeeper came over or something. I don’t know. But 

Todd:  It’s a very 

Craig:  tidy ghost. Yeah. 

Todd:  It’s silly. Todd, it’s tidy in some ways and and 

Craig:  doesn’t care in other Mhmm. 

Todd:  Apparently. Yeah. So She goes upstairs and, meets up with the other girls. And, where is where is Janie? Oh, I don’t know. I she went downstairs. I looked All over. All over the kitchen. All over the kitchen.   Didn’t find her, so came back upstairs. This this house that is so large that they decide to split up. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Of course, they do. To go hunt it down. She apparently felt like peering in the kitchen was enough to warrant further massive investigation 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  The rest of the girls. And so a couple of them 

Craig:  go upstairs or stay upstairs. Mhmm. Couple of them go downstairs. The ones that are downstairs split up. 

Todd:  One goes to the basement. 

Craig:  Right. And then I think the next one, a couple of the girls, they meet back up upstairs. The 2 that were looking around upstairs, and they see One door that they hadn’t checked and it ends up being the attic. 

Todd:  Oh, that’s right. 

Craig:  One of them is it it’s Suzanne. Right? Goes up. She says, I’ll I’ll go up and check here and The, another one. Gosh. 

Todd:  So they’ll all just Kim says, oh, I’ll just go downstairs and see if the other girls have found, they probably found Janie already. So I’ll just go downstairs while you check out 

Craig:  Right. So Suzanne goes up into the attic, and she’s looking around and she steps in a bear trap because there’s always bear traps laying around Of course. In in an attic, and then she gets killed the same way as as the 1st girl did. 

Todd:  Yeah. The killer bursts out of what appears to be a closet door in the attic that is Has a bunch of stuff piled up against it. 

Craig:  Yeah. Weird. 

Todd:  It is weird. 

Craig:  There’s a 

Todd:  lot in this film that well, you just don’t wanna examine it very closely. It all Completely breaks down. Yeah. 15,000,000 different holes in it. 

Craig:  There’s and there’s no point. You you no. You know, they’re not they’re not going for some masterpiece of storytelling. That’s right. Yeah. They’re they’re they’re clearly not particularly concerned with that, and that’s that’s fine. Like, you you know that 2 minutes in. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  So you just Get over it. 

Todd:  This wasn’t based on the best selling novels Right. Narcissus Massacre too. So she’s dead, and and the rest of them apparently don’t hear her screaming. You know, at times, the house, is supposed to be rather large, but every other evidence, speaks against that to the point where you can’t imagine these things will be happening in these different Right. House, but, you know, just go with it. That’s Pretty par for the course actually for horror films. So, they go downstairs, and the rest of the girls had decided to try the basement, because I believe it was Kim admits that she was too chicken to check the basement. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  So they go down to the basement, I believe, and this is where they find, both, Janie and Suzanne hung from the rafters in a rather humorous 

Craig:  Oh, god. It’s hilarious. Who’s the Australian? What what’s her name? She was Linda. Linda is, like, kinda just standing in a corner, and you hear, like, a droplet of water or whatever. And it’s raining outside, but, she’s like, oh, no leaks already. And then then she looks up, and blood starts dripping on her face, and we see that the 2 dead girls are Suspended somehow. I couldn’t really tell that they’re suspended up on the wall or from the ceiling or something. And she just kind of stands there screaming as the blood just got this flash is right honor for for far too long.   Effect. Right. 

Todd:  That’s funny. They flip out, and so they decide they run upstairs and have this inane conversation in the kitchen. 

Craig:  They know that there’s a killer around, And it’s like they stand around deliberating for a good 30 seconds or more, and it’s in this melodramatic, 

Clip:  There’s no dial tone. Oh, god. What are we gonna do? I knew we can’t just stay here. We’ve gotta get out Here. Oh my god. This is so horrible. I think we’ll go lifesaver with these. I think we’re really feeling less safe we’re a 1000000 miles from this place.   Scoot the rail. Let’s get the hell out of here. Yeah. I agree with Linda. And we’ve got to tell the police. I’m taking this with me. What’s up? For comfort. Oh my god.   Our clothes, they’re still upstairs. Do you really wanna go back up there? I didn’t think so. Jessica’s right. I’m gonna get the hell out of here now. Come on. 

Craig:  Can you repeat, Jess? I’m I’m gonna bring it with me. Okay. Whatever. And, like, she finds these right next to each other just laying on the counter, these 3, like, 9 inch, like, kitchen knives, and she passes them out to each of the girls. And so they each have one of these big huge knives, and they’re running around in their panties, 

Todd:  And they run outside into the rain. Right. And who’s there? But way across the Street. Uh-huh. Horrible ketchup. Horrible ketchup. Standing, steering menacingly. 

Craig:  And he starts walking towards him, and it’s really funny throughout the whole movie. Like, every once in a while, we’ll get a POV shot from him and Breach. Yeah. He’s like, and and so he starts walking across the street towards them, but he’s, like, walking at the slowest pace you Couldn’t possibly imagine. And he walks at that pace throughout the whole thing. It’s funny. He must have emphysema or something. 

Todd:  I don’t know. Yeah. It’s the it’s not the, the breathing of a pervert or of a menacing guy. It’s the breathing of 

Craig:  a guy fat guy. 

Todd:  Who’s really fat who has a hard time putting 1 foot in front of the other. And but Because apparently, he’s menacing enough walking at about a mile an hour across the street. They they decide to run back into the house. 

Craig:  After they deliberate about it again 

Todd:  Of course. Because there needs to be enough time to get them soaking wet. Yeah. Which is my other charm point. I mean, if that is not bald on its face. Uh-huh. You know, the skimpy offense weren’t enough. About halfway through the movie, we’re not gonna go fully nude, but we’re gonna get them wet for the rest of it.   So they run inside, and they kind of have a powwow in the in the living room where they’re just sitting back 

Craig:  to back. I know. It’s very Silly. And, like, eventually, I guess, Ketchum gets to the door like, gets 

Todd:  to the window. Well, Align is in here, which Oli becomes important later, but at the time, seems completely out of left field. 

Clip:  How could this have happened? Do you really think there’s a demon in the house? 

Craig:  Like, what? Who said anything about a demon? Where the heck did that come from? 

Todd:  But, yeah, Ketchum comes in, 

Craig:  and then tries to get in. 

Todd:  Tries to get in. He’s banging on the door. 

Craig:  Right. The and, you know, we know and, of course, If logical things happen, then the movie would just be over. So logical things can’t happen, but we get the picture. I I still think that they kinda want us Todd think that maybe he’s in on it or something, but it’s it was obvious to me that he was trying to help them. But, of course, he couldn’t say, I’m trying to help you. He just had to stare at them slack jawed and menacing and then, like, try to beat the door down. Yeah. 

Todd:  Though and that’s Believe, apparently, the only thing holding the front door together is, is just a little chain. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. And this 300 pound guy can’t bust it. Break that Oh, man. And then they, like, they hear a sound, and they’re like, he’s shimmying up the drain pipe. This guy is not gonna be shimmying up anything. But they have to run up they have to run upstairs to make sure that they latch the window in Attic before he gets up there. Yeah. 

Todd:  You know what? I mean, of course, logic would dictate. Well, if he is in fact shimming up the drain pipe, then the front door is clear. Why don’t you run out? So they go upstairs, and, they lock the windows and have a good look around the attic apparently for the 1st time or really it’s the 2nd time. 

Craig:  And then here okay. I already kinda suspected what was gonna happen anyway, especially since, like, you said there was that flashback scene where the girl and and and we Find out, of course, that, it’s Linda in the flashback. And in the flashback, in the very beginning, whatever it is, the the scene that sets 

Todd:  you Uh-huh. 

Craig:  She says, I know you’re out there. You really hurt me. If there’s an ounce of humanity left in you, you’ve got to remember. You’ve got to remember. So I kind of figured out what was going on, but then there was kind of a little throwaway line in here where they’re looking around, and it’s like there’s, like, like, a sex swing or something. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s like a sadomasochistic kind of, Set up their pictures on the wall of women and leather and things like that. 

Craig:  It was too dark for me to tell, but I could see that there were, like, leather straps and chains or something like There’s 

Todd:  like a mannequin with nipple rings on it or something, and and and we make it sound worse than it really was. Honestly, it’s it’s pretty pretty vague. 

Craig:  Right. Yeah. And then one of them says, oh, old I always forget his name. Old Hockstetter must have really had a good time jerking off up here or something like that. And Jesse goes, yes. He did. And, like, I’m like, okay. Weirdo.   But it pretty much established that I had been right in my Suspicions. Yeah. 

Todd:  It’s real foreshadowing. It’s very clever. 

Craig:  Yes. It’s subtle. Yeah. Right. 

Todd:  So, anyway, Jessica decides to go downstairs. Oh, one of them gets scared. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s it’s Kim, right, that gets scared and runs out? Runs out. And, she runs down the stairs. She runs in to catch him, and so she turns around and walks back up the stairs and barricades herself in a room. Meanwhile right? In a bathroom. Meanwhile, Linda is still in the attic, but, Jesse. Jesse said, you stay here. We know it’s safe up here.   You stay here. I’ll go get the other one. So you see you know that Ketchum’s kinda coming up the stairs behind Kim. She’s locked herself in the in the bathroom, And then somebody starts pounding on the door, and somebody breaks through the door, and it’s hook guy. And, again, this guy, he’s, like, totally in all black and, like, his Face is covered and everything, but it’s clearly not Ketchum. Yeah. I mean, Ketchum’s this big, huge guy, and whoever this isn’t making huge. Yeah.   And so We don’t see it, but he gets in there and and kills 

Todd:  her too. Her. Yep. So Linda’s, still upstairs, and Who comes up the stairs but Ketchup? Mhmm. And so she has this great scene. I actually really like the scene in the movie where she Hides, and he comes in, and he’s looking around, like, supposedly menacingly, but, and she lunges at him a couple times with a knife in the gun. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. And she, I mean, stabs him. 

Todd:  Seriously stabs him. Yeah. 

Craig:  The knife leads back to the hills. 

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. He falls backwards, and lays down. You know, it’s that classic, oh, is he dead? So she walks past him, and his eyes open. He reaches over to grab her. And so then she as she’s falling, grabs a chain off the wall, comes behind him, and strangles him. And you even hear it Okay. 

Craig:  Yeah. Blood’s coming out of his mouth. 

Todd:  He falls down again. So, okay, she’s got him. So she runs downstairs, and, of course, all is quiet. Mhmm. Even, Jess is nowhere to be found, and so she’s yelling out, I got him. Everything’s okay now. Well and 

Craig:  then here another totally random thing. The the phone starts ringing. Yeah. Well, that’s the phone doesn’t work. And so she answers the phone, and, whoever’s on the line is like 

Clip:  It’s Live upstairs there. Who’s this? This is his wife. If you could live on It’s not here. It’s not here. I am afraid of this. You’re the stupidest. Hello? 

Craig:  Hello? And she hangs up the phone. And then she’s still calling out for Jess, and she Jess’ His voice from the basement is like, Linda, come down here. And so she goes down, and this is when The big not at all surprising reveal comes. 

Todd:  Yes. She goes downstairs, and, of course, you can tell just from the voice that there’s something you know, this is not Jess’s normal 

Craig:  Right. It’s kind of a Terry. All too weird. 

Todd:  Mhmm. Jess comes out of the shadows, with a hook in her hand. 

Craig:  No. And she’s dressed in men’s clothing, and I feel like she’s got 

Todd:  her hair kinda pulled back. Yeah. She’s kinda manned up just a little bit. Although, she’s not wearing black. She has no black gloves on. That’s one of the weird things about this film. That’s one of the, I guess, you’d say shortcuts. If you don’t have the money or the imagination to really shoot it in a creative way where you can hide the killer’s identity.   Just throw the killer in all black. Right. Inexplicably, the real killer, I guess, changes in and out of it when it suits her. 

Craig:  See, and if I were to watch this again, this is one of the things, you know, I I had figured out already, probably, you know, 5, 10 minutes before it was revealed that she was the one who was possessed and, you know, we’ve seen this before. You know, they they did they did the seance, and the seance went wrong, and so the spirit was able to possess somebody. I mean, it’s it’s this ending with her, and and she eventually starts talking in kind of a weird, supernatural, but male sounding voice. Have you seen the movie Witchboard with Todd Kitaen? A 

Todd:  long time ago. 

Craig:  Yes. The exact same ending. You know, Tani Kitaen is Possessed by the the spirit that she fat that came out of the Ouija board, and, it’s a male spirit, and she’s talking in that low voice as She’s dressed like a man and trying to kill her boyfriend. 

Todd:  That was a much better movie as I remember. 

Craig:  Yeah. I liked it a lot when I was a kid. I haven’t seen it in probably 15 years. 

Todd:  Yeah. Me neither. That was, that was one of those stupid movie night movies. Yeah. I remember being a little more, higher caliber. 

Craig:  And it was actually kinda scary. It was it was a little bit it was a little Gary. Yeah. For another time. Anyway Yeah. Wait. You don’t 

Todd:  wanna keep talking about this movie? So yeah. Yeah. You’re right. And so, of course, she chases her dad and you have the big showdown where they’re hacking away at each other. Linda runs upstairs. She loses the knife at some point, but they’re in the the living room, and there’s a fireplace there. So she grabs 1 of the pokers in a hilariously enabbed bit of, Choreography. Yeah.   It’s terrible. Can’t manage to I mean, she could run at and stab him, but she just sort of stands in place and juts out with the, poker, which, of course, Melissa just steps back about half a foot, to dodge every time. 

Craig:  Oh, the whole fight sequence is just Terrible. I mean, it doesn’t look real at all. It looks like they okay. We’re gonna show you how to do this once, and then we’re gonna have you do it. We’re just gonna use the 1st take. 

Todd:  However it turns out Even just cutting the close ups and things just didn’t cover. Right. Yeah. It was bad. But, in the midst of this, she falls down on her, oh, she she kinda whacks her. 

Craig:  Yeah. And they kinda whack each other. Like, they both go down. 

Todd:  Mhmm. And Jess falls into a pile of boxes in the corner. And doing the classic, you should never do this, if the you’re in the situation of turning your back on the killer, Linda crawls across the floor, to get to the knife. When she grabs the knife and turns around, of course, Jess is no longer there in the boxes, and so she cowers in the corner, and that is our flashback that was from before Right. Right. In the present, of course. So where she says, you gotta remember. You’ve gotta remember.   Basically saying Jess needs to remember her 

Craig:  Her whole 

Todd:  self. Right. Yeah. But, Out jumps Jess again, saying, no. Jess is gone. Blah blah blah. And, she’s about to raise the hook from what Appears to be halfway across the room. Mhmm.   At Linda when Ketchum suddenly is in the background. 

Craig:  And this, You know, even that first time that he kinda woke up after he had been stabbed so many times, and then She had, strangled him. And then I feel like we even missed another one. Oh, she found the dead girl 

Todd:  in the bathroom. Oh, that’s right. We missed that one. 

Craig:  Yeah. Linda found the dead girl in the bathroom. And when she found the girl in the bathroom, she wasn’t dead yet. She, like, popped up out of the bloody tub, and she said the girl’s name, Suzanne. Right? She says, Suzanne. 

Todd:  Jessica. 

Craig:  Jessica, whichever one is the killer. Yes. Jessica. She said her name. Yep. Yep. And then the The ketchup guy shows up in the bathroom, and she kicks the crap out 

Todd:  of him again. Knocks him in the nuts, bends him over, whacks him 

Craig:  into the the the toilet. Yeah. And, like, stuffs his face out in the toilet, and he he assumed he drowned or 

Todd:  his I mean So this Poor guy has been through a lot. He’s been stabbed multiple times. He still has the knife in his gut. He still has the chain around his neck. And this was supposedly snapped. 

Craig:  Right. This was honestly when I really oh, they are in on it. They know that this is a cheesy stupid movie. They’re doing it on purpose. Mhmm. Up until that point, I really kinda thought they were taking themselves seriously and just failing Miserably. 

Todd:  Well, because the rest of the movie just, yeah, is of of that caliber. 

Craig:  Well and and it’s it’s Fairly typical slasher fair. It’s just low rate. Yes. 

Todd:  It’s cut rate, but, Again, it it knows it is, and and it doesn’t seem to mind it. 

Craig:  Well and and it made me appreciate what I had seen before When I figured out that they were in on the joke, that this was meant to be a a cheese ball, a corn fest throughout the whole thing. 

Todd:  Uh-huh. Yeah. That’s good. Yeah. So, so, of course, he is behind, Jess just as she’s about to Skewer Linda, apparently. And he says, Hockstetter, let you go one time, but I’m not gonna do that. I wasn’t man enough the first time, but I’m not gonna make that Steak again, and he pulls the knife out of the stomach and is able to stab, Hockstader who had been a Pretty effective killer up until the point where you get up and close and personal with him in a in a pivotal scene. 

Craig:  Right. Well and, again, like, he stabs her. Again, it’s a huge long knife and and stabs all the way into her abdomen, like, twice. And, like, it’s she barely even flinches. Like, she just kinda stands there while he does it. And then it happened earlier too when the girl, stepped into the bear trap. She was like, ow. Ow.   Oh, it hurts. Like, 

Todd:  Your your your leg would probably be broken. Jessica whacks him with the hook, in across the head and knocks him out. Mhmm. But as she turns around, Linda is finally able to actually move with her knife and lunges forward, and I guess that’s the knife oh, into her neck. Mhmm. And I guess you gotta get her in the neck Or 

Craig:  else Apparently. Yeah. Well and so she falls over like she’s dying, but in the last second, she says Linda in her normal Voice. 

Todd:  Which is, I guess, supposed to make you feel sad. 

Craig:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  You killed me. The spirit leaves my body. Yeah. And and what it was a bit of a Bruce Campbell moment in there too where she stabs her in the neck and, like, blood is squirting out of the neck just all over Linda’s Space. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. Very Sam Ramey for sure. 

Todd: 

Oh, they lay down, together, and Linda sort of passes out, I guess. And the next shot is of morning, and I guess the rain’s gone and the cops who, darn it, all night have been have been investigating and working their way towards this House. The storm drains must have been doing their job, and so they finally get to the to get to the house and burst open the door. Couple of cops with some shotguns And him and, the mover who’s like, I got here at 5: 30. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And, it was just like this. 

Craig:  I didn’t touch anything. I swear. 

Todd:  I’m gonna be sick. And, they see all the carnage, and there’s a lot of head shaking, like, oh, we knew this was gonna happen. But then Linda gets up, Like, the spirit of Hockstetter has Uh-huh. Gone and possessed her. 

Craig:  Yeah. When the other girl was possessed, you could kinda see it on her face. Like, they’ve kinda put, like, some pale makeup, kind of grayish pale, so you could tell that she was possessed or whatever. And now Linda looks like that too. One of the cops said, Isn’t this the old Hockstetter place? And that’s when she’s, like, sleeping under a pile of boxes and she gets up and goes, it still is. 

Todd:  And then just And then Ketchum, wakes up. Yeah. Springs to life, Grabs 1 of the cops’ guns and starts shooting, shooting, shooting, shooting Linda until she falls. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And then the cop, wrestles himself away from Hockstetter, and the other guy cops turned him with their shotguns and just blast, like, 4 or 

Craig:  5 holes Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Todd:  Into this guy. And he falls down. The detective, Mike, walks over to him and puts a finger to his neck and goes 

Clip:  Get an ambulance. This man is still alive. Oh, 

Todd:  he said This man’s still alive. 

Craig:  Well, they He he kinda opened his eyes, and I felt like they were kinda trying to suggest that maybe Hockstetter had jumped into him. 

Todd:  Yeah. It seemed like there was a suggestion. Right? Mhmm. Because it said The end with a question 

Craig:  With a question mark. Super funny. 

Todd:  You almost expected to see, stars Or tweet birds spinning around his head at that point. And and that was for me anyway. Again, not having known anything about this movie going in, not even the plot, Imagine we were gonna be watching a serious horror film and not having these ironic kind of not there wasn’t much for horror comedy for us back in the eighties. You know? There was Evil Dead and Evil Dead Todd kind of filled that void. There’s a movie called student bodies, which was pretty over the top hilarious. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Whereas this one doesn’t really fit into that category, you know? Mhmm. Yeah. So, I mean, that moment came, and for me, it was just, Like, mind blown. Like, oh my gosh. They’ve been playing with this this whole time. This movie we thought was really stupid. Unintentionally is clearly okay with being a silly film. 

Craig:  And and it is funny. And, then they do, you know, like, a cast montage where they’re showing the actors’ names and whatnot. And Some of it is shots from the movie, but some of it’s kind of the actors kinda wink at the camera. And then it says, it gets to the last guy, which is Ketchum, and it says and Orville Ketchum as as himself. That’s right. And then after that 1st round of credits, after it introduces the main cast, then it cuts to another scene where it’s a news reporter who says 

Clip:  Suspected mass murderer Orville Ketchum was released today from the prison ward of County General Hospital Despite being apprehended at the scene of last month’s brutal slayings of 5 teenage girls, Ketchum was freed when sheriff’s detectives were unable to accumulate enough evidence to prosecute him. 

Craig:  And it shows him, like, sitting in a wheelchair, something in in front of his house. Again, you know, just slack jawed, maybe with a little smile on his face, And a big busty nurse just standing behind him with, you know, like, a stripper nurse uniform, not like like like a real nurse, and she’s waving at the camera, And that’s the end. And so it’s obvious that, you know, it was tongue in cheek all along. And if you thought any other, If you thought otherwise, you were duped. 

Todd:  It it’s it’s pretty funny. This this movie apparently did so well for them. Don’t know if it was a huge blockbuster, but apparently it made quite a bit of money, that Roger Corman, the producer, came to Jim Wynorski and said, I want you to do it again. And by that, he meant I want you to make the same film again. So he did. Yeah. So there is a movie out there that you could call a spiritual sequel to this, except it’s really more of a remake in a different setting called Hard Todd Die. Interesting.   Which is a if you think about it, sort of a flip on Die Hard. 

Craig:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  Hard to Die. And he does that 

Craig:  this guy does that A lot now too, like, which is a breast wick. 

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. Like that. Now it’s all about sex and boobs and breasts, whereas before, It was also also about boobs and sex and breasts, but he had a little more interesting stuff in there. This movie, Hard to Die, is worth Checking out Todd. If you liked this movie just for the factor that it is exactly the same film, It is follows the same plot. The same people die in the same order. It is almost all of the same actors.   I think there’s 1 actress that’s different, But it is shot on a set. One of Roger Corman was known for taking films, finishing them early, Hanging on to the actors who were still under contract and all the resources that he still had, and quickly wilping whipping up another movie. He made a film. I don’t remember the name of it, but it was supposed to be this sort of sex comedy that took place in an office building. Didn’t do very well, but he still had the set left over from it. So he said, Jim, that movie worked really well. Why don’t you remake it again in this office building set that I have? Interesting. So it makes even less sense because at least, oh, we’re fixing up a sorority house, and the power is not coming on.   We just wanna have a fun night Staying here the night. We’re in an office building after hours for no really good reason, and we’re gonna, Oh, and also, conveniently, there’s a shower in the executive’s office that they can still use. 

Craig:  Oh, man. That’s funny. 

Todd:  It is so rich. It’s hilarious. I also have a bit of a, confession to make. I’m so enamored with this movie that my writing partner Dakota and I, were looking for some projects to do, and I thought, you know, it’s getting kind of popular with, like, the Evil Dead musical and things to take these Todd goofy things and turn them into musicals. Mhmm. I said, wouldn’t it be interesting and fun to make a comedy musical based on Sorority House Massacre 2? So we, I emailed Jim Wynorski. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And I said, look. I I work at a college, and I have these resources. I have some ins with the theater department there, and We’re, thinking about maybe making a a, musical version of Superity House Massacre 2. Could I do that? Could I have permission? He wrote me back. Wow. And he said, I think you’re absolutely insane. But he said, Go ahead as long as it’s right there, you know, just kind of locally. You have my blessing.   Just let me know who plays or will catch them. Interesting. We never got around to doing it. We wrote a couple songs, and I’m pretty proud of it. In fact, we have the whole Treatment Todd, and I think that’s something we’d like to come back to sometimes. So, Jim, if you’re listening, we still hope for this. Ironic horror, comedies are still a big thing right now. Yeah.   I have a lot of fond feelings about this film. Well, that 

Craig:  and that’s cool that you got an opportunity to communicate with him. He’s kinda one of your childhood heroes. That’s awesome. 

Todd:  You know, and I might have mentioned this in the podcast, but there’s a movie out there, that’s a documentary about him, and it’s worth checking out. He comes across as really kind of insane in the film, Yeah. Because, again, what he’s doing right now is just all getting, you know, former strippers and models and people just parading around in the front of the camera Boobs and it’s 

Craig:  he’s doing very creative. He’s doing some, like, sci fi movies. Right? Like, Dino Croc versus I don’t know. Yeah. Or something Like that. 

Todd:  Cobra Gator, Water Wars, Gila, Piranha Conda. Right. All these are, like, made for TV Right. Side kind of stuff. One of the things he’s apparently he’s working on movies now. I mean, if you look at his IMDB page, this guy puts out 3 or 4 or 5 movies a year. 

Craig:  Huge list. 

Todd:  They’re all pretty Craig, but, you know, apparently, they’re filling a void somewhere, so he’s buying them. So I can’t wait to see the Arkansas women’s Prison massacre, which apparently is this year’s big, you know, sleeper hit, that we’re gonna have to look forward to. But, you know, he comes across, as a decent guy, And you can see the passion in him, for making films along with a certain level of frustration in that You feel like this guy, although he seems to have always been just interested in making goofy, fun, schlocky horror films, is frustrated by the fact that it’s Nowadays, not as easy to sell those as it used to be. It’s harder to make money from these kind of movies now. And, you know, at that time, as you said earlier, it was just a different market. 

Craig:  Mhmm. And 

Todd:  you could get by and you could make as long as you had the money behind you for the film and the huge resources. You can make kind of a schlocky movie that was fun. You could do what you wanted to do Right. And make money from it. And now Everybody with a video camera could run out and make a reasonable facts and leave a movie like this. It it’s a much more crowded market, and 

Craig:  it’s hard 

Todd:  to it’s hard to get the funds for it. 

Craig:  So Right. 

Todd:  But the guy is still doing it over 25 years in the business. It’s it’s pretty interesting. 

Craig:  Cool. Well, you know, one of the things, that you had mentioned before we, watched the movie was that one of the things that we didn’t talk about when we did chopping mall was the music. And and, frankly, I don’t even really remember what the music in that was like. But because you said that, I was paying attention to the music here, and most of the movie is scored, almost all of it. And it’s actually a pretty impressive score. Isn’t it? Yeah. The music is, like, surprisingly good for the level of quality of everything else. 

Todd:  Yeah. I mean, at the beginning, you’re treated to an overture, really. Mhmm. It’s not one of those where the credits are playing over action or something going. It’s credits on a black screen that take a Good 3 minutes maybe. And in the meantime, you’re getting like an overture. Right. And it even has a bit of a Danny Elfman esque quality. 

Craig:  It does. It’s almost got kind of a gothic feel, like there’s some I have maybe some organs or something. I don’t remember. And it doesn’t feel in I mean, it maybe it is in part. I don’t know. But it doesn’t feel entirely synthetic. I mean, it sounds like pretty quality music. I I was impressed with that.   I don’t know how impressed I was with rest of it, the the the music 

Todd:  was good. Well, Chuck Serino is the guy who did the music, and, I actually reached out to him too thinking that, oh, maybe we’ll incorporate some themes from Right. Musical. He never did get back to me. He has a bit of a web presence, but he’s a very prolific composer, again, in this genre, of these older, low budget, early nineties, late eighties kind of films, and he does a pretty confident job. Chopping mall was also, scored by him. I thought it was Pretty decent. But you’re right.   This movie has a very distinct sound and score. Yeah. 

Craig:  I liked it. Impressive. Yeah. I I’m glad that you picked this. You know, I had. You had mentioned it several times. I knew that it was something that you wanted to do eventually, and I was gonna usually, I try not to spoil movies by looking stuff up if I haven’t seen them. But this one, I thought, oh, you know, it’s just a campy thing.   Who cares? So I looked, stuff up, and I really couldn’t find much. You know? There wasn’t much Todd read about it. So I didn’t really have any expectations or whatever. And it it was fun. You know? It’s it’s campy. It’s goofy, But there’s a place for that. You know? Every once in a while, you want something that’s just brainless. You know? Just brainless fun.   Just something to sit back and watch and goof on and laugh and, I liked it. So I’m I’m glad you picked it. 

Todd:  Yeah. If you’re looking for a film to turn on with your friends that you wanna just make fun of relentlessly from beginning to end, this is the perfect film 

Craig:  for it. 

Todd:  It’s funny. Beginning to end. And interestingly enough, it’s available on YouTube right now. Well, I mean, Probably, illegally, somebody uploaded it, but I’m gonna go ahead and embed it, on the website so that you can go and check it out too. It’s been up for several years, so maybe it’ll stay up a little longer. You guys can check it out for yourself and see what you think. Yeah. Thank you again for joining us, for another episode.   If you enjoyed this, Please share it with a friend. Please like our page on Facebook. You can find this podcast on Itunes or Stitcher. 

Craig:  Let us 

Todd:  know you think. Let us know what other movies you’d like us to see. Until next week, I’m Todd. I’m Craig with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Pet Sematary is the first horror film that his dad, Jim, took him to see in the theater – when he was 10 years old. Jim joins us on this podcast to explain himself and help us pick apart this classic Stephen King adaptation.

Pet Sematary (1989)

Episode 31, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Podcast

Craig:  Welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Craig.

Todd:  I’m Todd.

Craig:  And today we have a very special guest. Very special to me anyway. It’s my dad, Jim Higgins. You wanna say hi?

Jim:  My name’s Jim. Hi.

Todd: Hey, Jim.

Craig:  Well, I’ve been trying to get my dad to come do this, with us for a while, and it’s not like I had to pull his leg or anything. I mean, he he agreed to do it right away. We just haven’t gotten around to it till now, and I’m excited to have him here in honor of our special guest. I guess I really kinda picked the movie. We we talked about it, but we picked Pet Sematary because this was the first horror movie, I think, that my dad took me to, just just he and I when, when I was a kid.

Todd:  So we you saw this in the theaters?

Craig:  Yeah. We did. Oh. Yeah. And this movie and this movie came out in, 1989, which means I was 10 years old, and I I saw that it was released on April 21st. So I had just turned 10 years old. So what were you thinking taking a 10 year old to this movie? That’s

Todd:  kinda what I wanna know. Well, kinda what

Jim:  I was thinking. I mean, I’ve always been an avid horror movie fan, and I’ve watched watched them all my life from I remember when I was probably Craig age back then. When when I was 10, we’d watch the old werewolf and Dracula and Frankenstein. Those were the scary movies back in the day. But as as time progressed, the movies have evolved, you know, quite a bit since since then. But Craig and I started watching horror movies like the werewolf Frankenstein when he was probably, oh, I guess, 6 years old. Yeah. 26 years old.  Yeah. And we kind of moved on after that I’d shown we’d shown an old werewolf movie where the transformation was pretty funny now that you look back on it watching that. But we’d watched Werewolf in London where the transformation was just I mean, it was scary.

Craig:  I remember that. That was at your brother Chris’s apartment that we watched that. And, I I think that I wasn’t really even supposed to be watching it. I think that you guys tried to send me off into another room, but I kept coming back in and eventually you just kinda let me hang out. I but I I remember that.

Todd:  That is a great transformation scene.

Craig:  Yeah. It

Jim:  was a transformation scene. And from there, it just evolved. He, you know, he he made it through that that movie, and and we’d watch Friday 13th movies and the Halloween. And this got up to us. When this came out with Stephen King, and and I love Stephen King. When that pet cemetery came out, I read the book. I thought and it came out in a movie and I thought, man, this is gonna be great. And so I took Craig and that was probably for me to see, you know, bringing a 10 year old.  I didn’t think anything about it because we’ve been watching horror movies for for years, but there’s no hardly no other kids in there. All adults. And I remember, oh, about halfway through the movie, Craig just stands up says I gotta go for

Todd:  a minute. He walked out.

Jim:  And I thought, well, what do I do? Stay here and finish watch and you’re here

Todd:  or what?

Jim:  But he and he just stayed gone for 5, 5, 10 minutes, and then he came back in. Really? Didn’t say a word, but he was alright.

Craig:  I don’t know. Yeah.

Todd:  Do you remember where that was in the movie?

Craig:  Well, I do. It was yeah. It was act it was near to the end. I think I got through most of it. And, you know, we’ll talk a little bit about about the plot or whatever. But this this movie’s old enough. I assume most of you have probably seen it. Towards the end, there’s a pretty infamous, scene where one of the characters Achilles tendons gets sliced, and that was just it for me.

Todd:  That was when you left. That was when I left.

Craig:  Oh, okay. And he remembers me coming back. I don’t remember coming back. I I remember I remember sitting out there in the lobby. This was an old theater that’s gone now here in our little hometown, and, they really didn’t even have a lobby to speak of. You know? I just was kinda sat in the floor against the wall and waited. And I guess maybe eventually I went back in, but, oh, man. Yeah.  It was and I’m sure you know, I I tease you, Irybia, for taking a 10 year old or whatever. I’m sure I begged to go. You know, I was really into this stuff.

Jim:  Oh, yeah. He was into it.

Craig:  Yeah. So, I thought I had a really cool dad who would, you know, take me to these Yeah. Types of things.

Todd:  So So was this was your first horror movie that you went to the theater to see?

Craig:  Well, now I don’t remember exactly because I know that I think the 3 of us, me and my mom and dad, I think we had gone to see Gremlins. And that maybe came out a a few years before this. Did. But, you know, we’ve talked about this before. That was kind of billed as like a family movie.

Todd:  Family film. Yeah.

Craig:  It was not. Yeah. And it, you know, it was a little goofy, but it was scary. And I got scared in that one Todd. But, this one was the first real horror movie that, I don’t know if it was the first r rated movie I’d seen, but this is the the one that really stuck with me.

Todd:  Now, Jim, you said you read the book before.

Jim:  Yes. I did.

Todd:  Are you you read a lot of Stephen King?

Jim:  I read yeah. Probably about all of his

Todd:  Yeah. Me too.

Jim:  His his works. And, yeah, they’re all good.

Craig:  Yeah.

Todd:  They are.

Craig:  And I’m a huge fan of Stephen King Todd. And this, I I hadn’t read the book. I was too young, I think, to have read the book. But I I read it recently, just this last summer, actually, and I was really looking forward to it because, usually, the book is so much better than the movie. And I wasn’t disappointed because it was still a good book, but I was amazed at really how close the movie is. I mean, it’s a really direct adaptation of the novel.

Todd:  It really is. Although it is a simple it’s a simple story. Yeah. I mean, compared to, you know, a lot of films that get made from movies, sometimes the book’s so much better because the book has so much more depth and more complexity and more characters and there are subplots and things. And as I remember, because I read the book too, yeah. You’re right. What you see is what you get. And this the story really even in the book revolves just around this very small cast of characters.

Craig:  Right. Again, it’s it’s not that complex of a story. And and really what it all boils down to and I know of course, I didn’t get this when I was a kid, but the whole movie really is just about how we deal with and process death.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And I think, you know, it’s it’s there’s kind of a heavy handed theme that death is a natural thing. It’s not something to fear. It’s not something to be sad about, and it’s something that we just have to accept and move on. And if you can’t accept it and move on, then that’s destructive, and there’s gonna be bad stuff that happens. Mhmm. So the setup is this, you know, fairly young family. Louis and Rachel are the couple. Louis is a doctor.  They’re moving to Maine with their 2 small kids, rural Maine, and their daughter, Ellie, who I would guess is maybe, like, 8, some 9, 10 maybe, and their young son, Gage, who seems to be somewhere between 23. He’s really young, really small. Gage is played by Meeko Hughes. I think this was his first movie, and then he went on to be really pretty big in the sitcoms and stuff in the eighties and did a couple more horror movies too. He was the kid in, New Nightmare.

Todd:  That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Very recognizable child, actually.

Craig:  Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Super, super cute.

Todd:  Super cute. When you need some cute kid to then turn evil, this is the one you want.

Craig:  Right. Absolutely. So they move into this house in rural Maine. It’s right alongside this big highway. And as soon as they get there, you know, they start to unpack. I guess the movie opens, really, in the pet cemetery. Mhmm. That’s the first scene.  It kinda just eerily goes around. There’s this eerie music playing, and, you can see all the different, like, child made tombstones and whatnot.

Todd:  Which is cool.

Craig:  Yeah. It is kinda cool.

Todd:  Along with the child singing and the

Craig:  la la la la la

Todd:  la la with the creepy music underneath.

Craig:  Yeah. And you can hear the children’s voices reading the epitaphs and stuff. It’s it’s really kinda neat. But then it cuts to the family, and they’re arriving. And Ellie runs off. There’s a tire swing. She starts swinging in that, and right away immediately notices this path leading into the forest. And she the the swing falls, and she’s not really hurt, but, you know, kids freak out.  And so she’s crying, and the parents run over to her, and the little boy, Gage, starts to walk towards the highway. And we see kind of from an aerial shot that he’s walking towards the highway, and there’s this big semi truck coming.

Todd:  And this is, like, the 3rd probably the 3rd semi truck we’ve seen barreled out this highway. Like

Jim:  Right. Because they cut right after the cemetery scene to the semi. It looks like it’s going about 60 miles an hour.

Craig:  Coming right at you.

Jim:  Coming, yeah, coming right at you.

Todd:  Right over yeah. Coming over you. It’s almost like a foreshadowing of the shot that we get later with Gage getting hit. Right. That’s what’s so economical about this movie. Yeah. This movie is very economical. Within the first five minutes, we have peril, peril, peril.  We could see this that this road has a semis barreling Todd, and then she falls off the swing, and he almost gets hit by the car. But he’s saved by the neighbor.

Craig:  By the neighbor, Judd, who is Fred Gwen, who is probably most people know, as Herman Munster.

Todd:  I’m sorry. I just can’t watch him without thinking. 54. Where are you? One of those 2. Yeah.

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, gosh. And and it takes you right back to his old classic characters. But it’s also really kinda cool to see his face, you know, in this modern horror movie, you know, modern for us back then. I don’t you know, I watched The Munsters when I was a kid.

Todd:  And I watched car 54 as well.

Craig:  Yeah. And so it makes me smile every time I see him. And he’s got kinda this old movie star presence that you don’t really see anymore. He’s kinda, you know, that a man’s man, rugged and Yeah. But but he’s got Folksy. Folksy. Yeah. He he reminds me a lot of, my grandpa Harvey, Definitely.  My dad’s father-in-law. Just a country guy. Nice, nice country guy.

Todd:  Well and, you know, this is where I thought the casting was good compared to the book. I remember reading the book and the one thing that really hit I think he was the strongest character in the book. Yeah. And probably the stronger strongest character in this film. You know, he would always say, oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. All in and I’m reading the a y u h, and I just didn’t know how to really vocalize that when I was reading it, but he does a good job in this film.  He says it a few times.

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. He he’s he’s great. Country boy. So he saves the kid, you know, just in the nick of time. He sweeps in and and pulls him out. But then that’s when he tells him, you know, you gotta be careful of this highway. It’s it’s bad.  You you know?

Todd:  Which is interesting. He tells them that the highway’s bad, but he says it pretty much in regards to the cat. Yeah. Which I thought was a little strange considering the fact that he just saved his son from the highway. And you’d think that if you’re warning somebody about the highway being so bad, you’d say, you want to watch your little boy, who I just, by

Craig:  the way, picked up. Right.

Todd:  Instead Todd like, well, you got to get that cat fixed, because you don’t want that cat wandering too far and

Craig:  blah blah blah. Right. Yeah. And and so, you know, they have their general introductions. It’s funny that you say that because I was thinking, you know, this house, it’s it’s seated on this beautiful, peaker esque, you know, plot of land. But I was noticing in the background, there was, like, a big lake. I’m thinking, man, could they have picked, like, a more dangerous place to live with these 2 little kids? Like, did they not even consider the fact that this major highway, like, goes right through their front yard?

Todd:  You can drown back here. You can fall off the tire swing up here, or you can get run over by a truck over there.

Craig:  Yeah. Exactly. Then, you know, it’s it’s it’s hard to even go from there.

Todd:  Well, I guess he’s a doctor. Right. And so, after they’re they’re getting settled in the house, and there’s some discussion with Ellie about the cat, and I think it’s the talk of the highway and getting Ellie fixed

Craig:  that Getting the cat fixed. Getting the cat fixed. Not Ellie.

Todd:  Church. Church is

Craig:  the cat.

Todd:  Church is the cat. Winston Churchill, church for short. And they talk about getting the cat fixed. And so in the context of this and why they’re getting the cat fixed, Ellie starts asking about death.

Craig:  Daddy, what if Church dies? What if he dies and has to go to the pet cemetery?

Clip:  Honey, Church will be fine.

Craig:  No, he won’t. Not in the end. In the end, he’s gonna croak, isn’t he?

Clip:  Lovey. Church might still be alive when you’re in high school, and that’s a very long time.

Craig:  It doesn’t seem long to me. It seems short.

Clip:  Well, if it was up to me, I’d let Church live to be a 100, but I don’t make up the rules.

Craig:  Oh, who does? God, I suppose. He’s not God’s cat, he’s my cat. But God gets only if he wants 1, not mine. You’re right.

Todd:  It’s interesting because you would think that a kid that kid is not so young that you couldn’t talk more frankly about death with, but he is a little evasive. I mean, you don’t wanna give these kind of assurances to a kid that every oh, yeah. Don’t worry. You’re just gonna live really, really long time. Especially when you were just you were just confronted with this possibility that he might not, he or she? Was it a he?

Craig:  The cat is a boy. Yeah.

Todd:  Is a boy, might not. A boy. Yeah. I thought that was interesting because then later on, because he’s getting it to take to be fixed, she wants to know if Church is gonna be fine during the surgery. Right. And he’s then reluctant to give her any reassurance. It was a weird dichotomy to me. Yeah.  I thought it was a little I thought it was a little poor in the writing. And I don’t know what they were trying to do there, but the mother merely jumps in as, well, why don’t you give him some Give her a promise. Don’t chili, Shally. Give the little girl a promise.

Jim:  Right.

Todd:  I don’t know. It made me think maybe there was some backstory in the family that just doesn’t get touched on. I don’t remember the book that well.

Craig:  Yeah. I mean, there’s they do touch on it a little bit. The the mom, death is a really touchy subject for her. You see that in the movie. I remember it being more emphasized in book. Mhmm. It’s not a topic she’s comfortable with. She doesn’t wanna talk about it.  She doesn’t wanna expose the kids to it, and she explains why later. But, you know, during all of this time, Todd explains to Lewis that what’s down at the end of that path is a pet cemetery, and he says, we’ll go down there sometime. And he does. He takes them down there, like, on a little family day trip, trip, and they go down. And Ellie’s kinda fascinated, but the mom is clearly uncomfortable.

Clip:  I told you it’s a bad road, Lois. It’s got a lot of pets, and a lot of kids that are unhappy.

Todd:  At

Clip:  least something could come of it. This place couldn’t plant nothing but corpses here anyway, I guess.  How can you call it a good thing? A graveyard for pets killed in the road built by brokenhearted children.  Well, they have to learn about death somehow and not know them is great.  Why?

Todd:  It comes across a little overwrought. The drama does. Yeah. I think if we had gotten a little more of her back story earlier on in the film, if we had known a little bit more about her, this wouldn’t seem so out of place. But she does seem awfully touchy and just seems awfully dramatic early on with these things.

Jim:  Right. And and that point, you know, that you brought up about where the dad really didn’t seem to have any problem with churn, you know, the child that, hey. This guy’s gonna live until you’re in high school or graduate. But then he really had a problem trying to assure her that the cat was gonna make it through the surgery. And I and I just thought, well, okay. He’s a physician. Mhmm. You know, he knows what can happen possibly with with anesthetic or whatever you put the cat in there.  Maybe that was a clue that yeah. But it was very noticeable that kinda dichotomy there there. I was thinking maybe that’s because it was a nature versus man kinda thing where he had control. Maybe some there’s some control in the medical, but on the nature side, wow. But it’s but to me, again, it was opposite because you really don’t have any control over, okay, truck comes around the corner. That’s an accident where you have more control in the medical field that he was had no problem giving assurance. Right. Something that was beyond their control.  Right. Hey. The cat’s gonna live.

Todd:  Well, I think you’re right. I guess that’s kinda where your mind is. Right? Yeah. And You’re a doctor. You’re right.

Craig:  And as a parent Todd. I mean, I’m sure that’s hard as a parent Todd you wanna provide comfort and reassurance, but you also have to try to balance that with reality. And I can understand why that would be a struggle. I think maybe some of the stuff with the mom too, she is my least favorite cast

Todd:  Yes.

Craig:  In this I remember in the book, she was described as being really beautiful. And not to say this woman’s not beautiful. She’s striking in her own way. But I wouldn’t necessarily say pretty. And and she was neurotic in in the book too, but I feel like I almost had a little bit more sympathy for her. In this, she kinda comes across as cold and weak. She does. Yeah.  Like, she needs to be taken care of and and mollified, and I’m not a big fan of the actress’ performance, here.

Todd:  No. I agree with you. It’s not the strongest, and it it just makes their relationship weird. And maybe it’s supposed to be weird. Again, we don’t really know enough. We don’t have enough backstory to know why, so you just kinda wonder. Because she kind of goes off on him there, for a second, and then she walks out the door as he’s packing up the cat and is like, well, everything’s fine. Yeah.  We’re still friends. Right? And I mean, I’ve been married for a while, so I mean, that sort of thing does pretty much happen to you. You know? Agree. Agree.

Jim:  That does happen, but but you’re right. It’s it’s it’s the things that she kinda went off on, you know, that that that would upset her, which kinda which kinda surprised me. And, again, like Craig said, we don’t know the by watching the movie what really her background is, what it is in her past. We know she’s real close to her family. Her parents are pretty domineering. His parents aren’t talked about at all, his family.

Craig:  Yeah. And and her His

Jim:  idea was it to move to the rural? Was that to get away from her family or was that

Craig:  her Yeah. And that is a that is explored more in the book too. They there’s always the the her parents didn’t want her to marry Lewis because Lewis was poor and just, you know, they were living, like, on a mattress in some crappy college apartment and whatnot. He was never gonna be good enough for their little girl. And even now that he has become a doctor and is very successful, still not good enough.

Todd:  That’s yeah. And that’s the weird thing when you see a movie and you don’t have that story, you think, well, there’s a doctor. Who would be upset about their child marrying a doctor? Right. You know, in that regard anyway. You think, well, there’s gotta be some character flaw. Maybe he’s just a horrible person.

Craig:  Cemetery, Judd says something. He he’s talking to a little girl, and he’s real cute. You know? He’s a very grandfatherly figure.

Clip:  Do you know what a graveyard really is?

Craig:  Well, I guess not.

Clip:  It’s a place where the dead speak. No. Not right out loud. Their stones speak, or their markers. This ain’t a scary place, Ellie. It’s a place of rest and speaking. Do you remember that?

Craig:  Yes, sir.  I guess it’s worth mentioning that all of this is based on stuff from King’s life. At some point, he moved his family to a rural Maine home right alongside a highway. The daughter’s cat got hit by a car, which we haven’t got to, but we’ll get to. And, his own young son, Joe Hill, who is an author in his own right now, at one point ran out into the road as a truck was approaching and almost got hit.

Todd:  Oh my goodness.

Craig:  There was a pet cemetery down a path behind their house. Okay. And there was and there was an old guy who lived across the street. So he based all of this in his own reality, except for, in his life, his his son did not get hit and but in in the movie, the son eventually does.

Todd:  Well, that explains a lot because it’s a very unique set of circumstances here. Todd. I

Jim:  mean, yeah. I I wasn’t aware of that. You know, I was aware that Stephen King himself got gas.

Todd:  Yeah. You know,

Jim:  a boxcar.

Craig:  Like a like a van or something. Many years later. Many years later. And the reason I brought that up is we were talking about the cemetery, the, the Stephen King’s daughter’s cat who got hit and killed was named Smucky. And in both the book and the movie, there’s you can see a Todd, one of the in the graveyard is is smucky. Smucky. Right. So they you know, they leave, whatever.  And then I think the next thing we get to is Lewis’ first day on the job. And he works, Todd said when we were watching this, well, that’s a weird hospital.

Todd:  Well, it’s like a high school.

Craig:  Well, I I think that it’s supposed to be like a university clinic. Oh, okay. That’s what it was in the book. And so I assume that’s what it’s supposed to be here too.

Todd:  Where, like, the, operating what what looked like a small type, small procedure type operating room was,

Craig:  like, right across from the entrance? Right. Right. Exactly.

Jim:  Yeah. I I didn’t understand the setting, but now that you talk about it, I remember him saying, like, it’s a college. Yeah. So I don’t know if that’s kinda like the health center

Craig:  That’s what I’m thinking.

Jim:  You know, or whatever what I’m thinking. But I was I was confused like, Todd, where are all these kids coming from? I thought this was a

Todd:  hospital. Right.

Jim:  I thought, were they all with him when he got hit?

Craig:  Or It’s well, I think a bunch of them were. I think it it was like a a marathon or something. This kid was running and

Jim:  he got hit by By a truck.

Craig:  By a truck.

Todd:  Which is the number one cause of death in this

Craig:  community. Right.

Todd:  So They they shouldn’t move the highway. They should really talk about a bypass or something. Yeah. Absolutely.

Craig:  So this kid gets brought in. You know, he’s all messed up. His head is all bashed in. It’s pretty gross. And it’s obvious that there’s not gonna be anything they can do for him there. But he’s pretty much DOA anyway. So Now he was dead. Right? Yeah.

Todd:  Because he closes his eyes.

Craig:  Right. He was dead. This this kid, his name is Pascal. I don’t remember what his first name is. But he dies, and as everybody else kinda clears the room, Lewis is sitting alone in there with him, and I think Lewis says something to him. I don’t know.

Todd:  Oh, and he says I was that I was supposed to only deal with scrapes or something

Craig:  to me.

Todd:  I promised my wife it was only gonna be broken bones and skinned knees.

Craig:  Yeah. But he’s sitting there, and all of a sudden, this dead kid kind of, not all the way sits up, but opens his eyes and kind of jerks around a little bit and starts speaking to him in in a very low, scary voice. And he says, the soul of a man’s heart is stonier, Louis. And then he says, I’ll come to you. Victor. Yeah. Victor, Pascal. Absolutely.  Very good. So I guess it’s just that night. Right? He’s laying in bed with his wife. Louis is laying in bed with Rachel. And he hears kind of a loud noise, and he looks up and standing in his doorway, his bedroom doorway, is this ghost, presumably, still looking very messed up. And he basically says, come with me. Lewis doesn’t he thinks he’s dreaming. He doesn’t know what’s going on.  And he says something about, I don’t like this dream, and the guy says, what makes you think it’s a dream? Well, Pascal leads Lewis down the path, which is now, of course, all misty and scary. It’s all very dramatic. To the pet cemetery, Lewis is like, why are you here? What are you doing? And he says, I wanna help you because you tried to help me. And they get down to the pet cemetery.

Jim:  This is the place

Clip:  where the dead speak.  I wanna wake up. I wanna wake up. That’s awful.  Don’t go on, doc. No matter how much you may feel you have to, do not go on to the place where the dead will walk.

Craig:  And then he kind of, I feel like, floats up into the air, starts to, like, disappear and, his voice over continues and he says the barrier was not meant to be crossed. The ground beyond is sour. And so And he points to this corner of the cemetery where it’s like

Todd:  a big giant pile of brush, essentially, leave branches and things. It almost looks like it’s intentionally been blocked off.

Craig:  Right. Right. And so Lewis kind of falls to his knees and and just, you know, puts his hands to his face and says, I I wanna wake up. I wanna wake up. And he does. That’s we cut, and he wakes up. He’s kind of jarred awake in the morning. It’s kinda one of those things where, oh, thank goodness.  It was just a dream. And then he throws the blankets off, and his feet and the legs of his pajamas and the sheets and blankets are all covered in mud. Yeah. So, obviously, he had actually gone out there.

Todd:  It’s classic.

Craig:  Right. Classic. At this point, it’s Thanksgiving time. The rest of the family, the 2 kids and the mom, are gonna go visit the parents. But because the dad doesn’t get along with the parents, he’s gonna stay back behind.

Todd:  Yeah. Which I’m sure is helping matters. Right.

Jim:  And I think that was probably intentional, you know, on his part. He knows he’s not well liked, you know, from that side of the family. And I think, you know, to me, it just seemed like this happens about every day.

Todd:  You know,

Jim:  they go Todd she goes to her folks, and he does whatever. That’s true.

Craig:  And And he says something like, you know, I want you to have a good holiday. I don’t want it to get messed up or whatever.

Todd:  I feel like we missed something important. Well, everybody’s having dream, and I guess it’s the we missed the Missy character. Missy is the Their housekeeper. And honestly, this is a part you when

Craig:  this subplot seems so superfluous, and it’s not in the book.

Todd:  Oh, it’s not in the book? No. Are you kidding me?

Craig:  The the character in the movie, Missy, is an amalgamation of 2 characters in the book. In the book, Judd has a wife. Oh, that’s right. Who’s alive. Yes. And Missy is just their house keeper, and she doesn’t commit suicide. The only person who dies before people in the Creed family start dying is is Judd’s wife. She has a heart attack at some point, and she doesn’t die right away.  Lewis is able to kinda nurse her back to health, and they get her an ambulance, and she’s okay. But some time goes by, and she does die. And that’s what prompts the backstory of why Rachel is so messed up about death. And that’s a good story.

Todd:  It is. I felt like this was a scene that was really kinda shoehorned in there as well. Rachel comes in and she’s talking to her husband. I overheard the conversation you had with Ellie about death. And she said, you remember my sister? And he’s like, oh yeah, She had spinal meningitis and blah blah blah. And then she starts telling, I guess, what she had never told him before, which was that she, as an 8 year old girl, was solely in charge of taking care of her sister, and her sister was locked in the back room of the house. Essentially, the family secret. Nobody I mean, people had to know they were they were there, but they were trying to hide her or whatnot.  And she had to go in and feed this sister every day. And we see this in flashback and it’s interesting because, not only does she have spinal meningitis, but she looks like absolute death.

Craig:  Oh, she’s a monster.

Todd:  Yeah. Really a monster. And of course this is probably also I guess when you’re showing a dream sequence and this is probably a choice that you’re showing the impression of the person’s memory. Right. Right. So probably in life we understand maybe she didn’t look that bad, but in her this 8 year old girl’s memory, she looked like a monster. She’s she’s sullen. Her skin is just stuck to her bones, and her back is Twisted.  Twisted. And then almost the the ribs and and her spinal column are almost breaking through the skin. It’s really gross, and she has to go in there and feed her. And this is really interesting where how she says that she was really glad when she died, and she was disturbed by that essentially. She goes in, she was the one who discovered when she was finally dead. Every single day up until that point, she was wondering when is she gonna die? When is she gonna die? When is she gonna die? When she did die, she started crying and ran out, talked to the neighbors, but she said, honestly, I think that the cries were laughter and I feel guilty about that. So it it is some really complex exploration of the of death and the human side of death and suffering, and this woman’s been through it as a child. So obviously now we know why she’s uncomfortable with talking about death.  Right.

Craig:  Well, in this part of the movie, you said, dad, you said you didn’t remember the whole sister side plot?

Jim:  Right.

Craig:  It’s funny, but Interesting. That is the part that really stood out to me. Really? And, you know, after the whole theater experience, I kept watching this movie, you know, after, and I saw my you know, I showed my little sister, and she was really freaked out by that part Todd. The sister Zelda is really scary, I think.

Jim:  Mhmm. Yeah.

Craig:  And and they want you know, that’s what they were going for. It’s supposed to be a 13 year old girl, which clearly this is not. And so what you’re saying about it kind of being more Rachel’s projection of what her sister was makes a lot of sense because, really, they cast a man. I was wondering that, actually. Zelda was played by a man to to good effect. She’s scary. That’s that’s one of the parts that I remember most from this movie.

Todd:  Yeah. And, you know, I don’t know if if this movie were made now, what, almost 20 years later, if that would be maybe particularly insensitive Yeah. Probably. To show this in invalid. You’d want a little more sympathy for her, but instead she’s really played up as a monster. Right.

Jim:  Right. You know? And and, again, I think, like, kinda what you said earlier, Todd. I mean, we’re seeing it as the mom’s memory.

Clip:  Mhmm.

Jim:  And that was her perception, you know, of the whole I mean, it was monstrous, you know, to go into this room that’s closed off from everybody. Mhmm. But they just keep this girl in in. She they never take her out, obviously. Right. Really, I don’t think you even talk about her. But she’s the one that’s responsible for going in and feeding her. And so that’s where she gets her whole perception of sickness, death, you know, from this experience and thinking, oh my Todd.  How horrific, you know, that is. Because she she probably didn’t understand Right. You know, spinal meningitis or to me, that’s why it was such a kinda taboo subject,

Craig:  you

Jim:  know, in the family too.

Craig:  Yeah. And on one hand, you I mean, I guess she’s just never she’s never gotten over it. Because you would think if some if she had had such a terrible traumatic experience and introduction to death, you would think that she would wanna make an effort to introduce her own children to it in a way that wasn’t right, that wasn’t gonna be so scary. But I guess she just hasn’t gotten over it.

Todd:  Well, it doesn’t give you a lot of sympathy for her parents either.

Craig:  No. No. So No. Not at all.

Todd:  Well, there’s no sympathy for her parents through this whole thing. Right.

Craig:  Right. Right. Anyway, while they’re gone for Thanksgiving, church, the cat gets hit in the highway and killed. And, it ends up on Judd’s lawn. Judd calls Lewis and says he better get over here. The cat is dead. It’s it you know, it is their cat. It’s clearly dead.  He pull when he pulls it up off the ground, you know, you can hear it peeling up out of the out of the frost. Pretty cool scene, actually.

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  Yeah. And and good effects. It actually made me a little uncomfortable. There’s a couple of different effects with dead and dying cats, and they look really real. Do what? So I was like, man, I hope these are just really well trained cats. I don’t know.

Todd:  Hey. I have to say that cat is probably one of the best actors in

Craig:  this movie. Oh, yeah.

Todd:  Yeah. I don’t know how they

Craig:  did that.

Todd:  Very menacing. I’ve had to work with animals before. I had to work with a dog on film, and and it was it was a full day affair just to get it to do 2 or 3 things. And the things that this cat did were either absolute luck, they were able to get these shots, or it was just super well trained. Right.

Jim:  Well,

Craig:  and they say, you know, the the old adage, never work with animals or children, and you’ve got them both here

Todd:  Yeah.

Craig:  And both great performers. I would say that the little boy I mean, this kid can you even really call it acting when the kid is probably hardly aware of what’s going on around him? But Meeko Hughes, he’s really good and effective in this movie too. He is. He’s good. He’s so cute, like one of the cutest kids you’ve ever seen in the beginning. And then at the end when things get scary, he’s really effectively creepy too. And Meeko Hughes, you know, he’s still around. I think he still works every once in a while, but he’s a small person.  He’s a he’s a he’s a short little guy.

Todd:  Well, they go through the film and they’re he they’re always either holding him or they get off the plane, immediately put him in a stroller. It seems like he’s on his feet very little Mhmm. Which I think was intentional because when he does get on his feet now and he’s walking around, it seems a little more supernatural at the end.

Craig:  Right. Right.

Todd:  Right.

Craig:  So the cat’s dead. Lewis says, well, you know, Ellie’s gonna be really upset. And Todd says, well, maybe we’ll take a walk. Bring bring the cat. So they go down to the pet cemetery, and Judd says, well, where do I where do I dig? Do I just pick the outermost circle? And he says, no. We’re not stopping here. We’re going on. We’re going up over that that big thing of debris.

Todd:  You know, the place the ghosts warn you away from.

Craig:  Right. That exact place. He said stay away from stay away from there. Todd says, you know, he’s Lewis says, well, we can’t get over that. It’s crazy. We’ll break our necks. He says, oh, no. I’ve been over there a couple times.  Just follow me. Make sure you step in the right places, and everything will be

Todd:  alright. Stop.

Craig:  Don’t stop and don’t look back.

Jim:  Don’t look down.

Craig:  Don’t look down. Right. Judd gets up there fine, and and this is kind of a funny scene. Because they’re marching forever. They’re marching forever, and Todd keeps saying, almost there now.

Todd:  The thing is so far away, you almost wonder, well, there had to be an alternate route to get to this place. I mean, it can’t be that. Couldn’t we drive around?

Craig:  But anyway, so they’re going for a really long time. And this was one of the parts that was different, in the book, and I think that it was just probably for budget. You know, they they probably didn’t have the budget for the effects. But I remember in the book when they were walking through the forest, it was almost like an otherworldly place. Like, there was, there was mist up to their knees. They couldn’t see their feet. Lewis couldn’t really like, the ground was squishy. He couldn’t really see what he was stepping on, and they kept hearing these weird noises, around them.  And there’s some suggestion of that. There’s a weird kind of shrieking noise, big rumbling noise, and Lewis said, what was that? And Judd’s like, oh, just a loon, which is clearly a lie. And you can tell that Judd, he knows something weird is going on. But they finally make their way up to what turns out to be this big ancient burial ground, and Judd tells, Lewis that it’s an old Micmac burial ground, and this is where you’re gonna bury the cat. And, You

Todd:  gotta do it yourself.

Craig:  You gotta do it yourself.

Todd:  Help you, but you gotta bury your own.

Craig:  You gotta bury your own.

Todd:  Which is a line I’m gonna use from now on. Right. Just with little modifications, like, I’d help you with the dishes, but you gotta wash your own. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.

Jim:  Let me know how that turns out

Todd:  for now.

Craig:  They go back home. The phone’s ringing. Lewis tries to get to it. He doesn’t get to it in time, and, Judd’s chasing it behind him and says, when you do talk to him, not a word about what we’ve done here tonight. And and Lewis says, what did we do here tonight? And, I I don’t remember what the

Todd:  response was.

Clip:  Well, there

Jim:  was you almost noticed something’s really strange about that that particular place. Of course, it, you know, it looks like an Indian burial ground or whatever. And he’s got this, like, mining tool

Todd:  Yeah. Right. Like a crack. Pickaxe.

Jim:  And he hits the ground, and he sees farts come up in his mouth. Man, Could you have picked a better spot

Todd:  for him to bury?

Jim:  And then the next thing he’s gonna bury him better.

Todd:  Well well, yeah. He’s burying him. Ground. He’s burying him, but it looks like it’s like 3 hours later because the sun has since set. It’s dark out.

Craig:  Right. It’s not like he’s digging a 6 foot grade. He has to dig a hole big enough for a cat to get.

Todd:  It ends up being, what, like a 4 foot deep hole. I mean, it wasn’t terribly impressive Right. When it was done. I think he pushed some a small pile of dirt over and it was finished. Yeah. Like, that’s what you’ve been working

Craig:  on this whole time? Well, I guess he broke it up really well.

Todd:  Well, but what he does say to him is,

Clip:  women are supposed to be the ones who are good at keeping secrets. Any woman that knows I’m involved will tell you. She’s never seen into a man’s heart. The soil of a man’s heart, Lewis, is stonya. Like the soil up there in the old brick my bearing ground.

Todd:  And, of course, that strikes a chord with him because that’s exactly what the what the kid what the kid passed out.

Craig:  Said to him. Right.

Todd:  So there are a lot of moments in this where there are these reminders, these wraparound moments, where the dreams are coming to life or the visions are coming.

Craig:  That’s another thing. Ellie, the daughter, keeps having the she calls the dad, and she’s worried about the cat. And he says, well, why are you worried? So, well, I had a dream that it got hit in the road. I’ve read interviews with Stephen King, who has said that Ellie in Pet Sematary probably has the shine, like Danny Boyd in, in in The Shining. There’s something special about her where she really is kind of having these premonitions, and she has them throughout, and they’re always right. Yeah. And the ghost, Pascal, is able to communicate directly with her. He seems like he can kind of influence other people, but he can, like, talk specifically to her.  So there’s something special about her too, which is kind of interesting. You know, King’s books, they all tie in together.

Todd:  They kinda do. Yeah.

Craig:  Which is which is fun when you, you know, see those ties. But Well,

Todd:  and in a book, it comes across really well. I felt like in the movie, it came across as a cheap device. Again, I love the story. I I do enjoy the movie for the most parts, but I think it it can come across as kinda schlocky. Yeah. And I think that’s one of the elements that are a little schlocky is that every time, it seems like they’re it seems like they’re being driven by dreams, many of the cases. Well

Craig:  and it’s interesting you say that in the book, it comes across better. I’m a huge, huge Stephen King fan, but sometimes I think that he needs to relinquish a little bit of control when it comes to the movies based on his books. Because when he’s very much involved, he’s always really adamant that it stick really close to the source material. And I understand that. You know, you want to protect the integrity of your art. I get that. But production. He has a cameo in the movie as a prequel.  He was very much a part of the production. He has a cameo in the movie as a priest at a cemetery. He was on set almost every day because they filmed it on location in the same area where the book was set. And so Oh, really? Yeah. It was only 20 Mile Drive from Stephen King’s house.

Jim:  It was a

Todd:  very personal movie for him.

Craig:  Right. So he was there a lot. But I I think that the movie suffers a little bit from it trying to stick so closely to the source material. I think if they had maybe played up some more cinematic elements, that it could have been a little bit stronger.

Todd:  Well, the other Schlocky thing, and and we kind of brushed over and it’s worth brushing over, is Missy at some point in here commit suicide. Right. She’s complaining about stomach pain, and the doctor’s like, oh, I can have it checked out. She’s like, no. That’s okay. It’ll go away. It always does. And then we have basically, I think at this point in the movie probably, there’s a scrawled note.  I have I mean, it’s it’s almost bludgeoning in its Yeah. In its, in its directness. It’s just this note that she writes, I’m really sorry, I have cancer or something. Right. And then she goes into I don’t know. Is it even the basement of the hallway? I don’t know. Who wherever it is, and and she hangs herself. And it’s like an excuse to get another death in here

Craig:  so they can talk about That’s exactly

Jim:  And it was. And

Clip:  it was

Jim:  that’s probably why I forgot about it. Yeah.

Todd:  You know,

Clip:  one of the

Jim:  things because I thought, where does that really play in? It does. You know, to the to the whole picture. Because he’s a doctor. He knows she’s sick. But he does tell her, you know, hey. I’d be glad to take a look Mhmm. And and see what’s wrong. But, you know, the next thing, you know, the pain’s too strong or the pain’s too bad, and and she kills herself.

Craig:  Yeah. And that’s it. It’s clunky. Yeah. It’s clunky.

Todd:  Well, and it’s also clunky because we see so very little of her. Yeah. We see her in the beginning. We see maybe 2 more shots of her.

Craig:  And you don’t care. You don’t care.

Todd:  She does. Like, okay. Is this supposed to have an effect on us? Because it doesn’t. You can’t even imagine it’s that much of an effect on the family if they’ve only been there for what? Like a month or so?

Craig:  Yeah. Well, Lewis wakes up the next morning, the cat’s back. Yep. And it’s glowing eyes. It’s got glowing eyes, and it’s got a different demeanor. This is a really sweet, loving cat before, and now it’s a hissy, snarly cat. Lewis goes over to talk to Jud, and Jud explains. He says, I’ve been up I have been up there before.  When I was a kid, I had a dog. I took it up there, buried it up there. It came back, but it wasn’t the same dog. And he says, you know, we get a scene, another flashback scene where we see this gruesome dog come back and it seems vicious and it’s snarling and barking and whatnot. Again, another place where the book and the movies differ a little bit, because in the book, when the pets came back, they were different and generally unpleasant, and people didn’t really want to be around them anymore, but they stayed around. Judd says in the movie when he when my dog died peacefully in his sleep that same night, I buried him in the regular pet cemetery. That’s not the way it happened in the book. In the book the dog lived for a long time after that.  And he he was different and there was something off about him and he stunk and no matter how many baths Judd gave him they couldn’t get the the stench off.

Jim:  Earth smell. Earth smell.

Craig:  Right. But it stuck around.

Todd:  But here in the movie, that flashback scene that we get makes the dog seem almost rabid. Uh-huh. It’s bloody and it’s barking and everything, and it seems like, you know, he had to put him you said he when he died peacefully in his sleep.

Craig:  That’s what he said in the movie. What he said in the movie.

Jim:  What he said in the movie. What he said in the movie.

Todd:  I mean, just the way it’s presented, it begs the question, why would you choose to stir the pot by having this guy bury his own cat in the cemetery? When you’ve done it to your own pet, you know what it does to your own pet, wouldn’t it be better just to give this child the experience of death in what is actually a pretty safe way? I mean, if you’re gonna I’m not a parent. Jim, you are. But, I mean, if you’re gonna expose your kid to to death for the very first time, wouldn’t it be better to be a goldfish or a cat than, like, you know, a relative or somebody they’re really close to?

Jim:  Definitely. And and, yeah, you see that. That’s the difference. You know, the mom’s first experience at death was, of course, her sister. You know, she’d been taken, and now her daughter’s first experience is gonna be with this cat. But the funny thing that I saw in the movie, and I still haven’t figured out why they did that or what was the point, when the cat comes back well, first, the guy gets hit by the car, and he dies. And then he comes back. And when he comes back, I mean, he’s he looks all messed up.  He’s been hit by a car. And and you and you can still see Craig hanging out. Out. I mean, he’s pretty grotesque. When the cat comes back, you can’t tell a thing’s wrong with him.

Todd:  Right? That’s true.

Jim:  They got hit by a car. I mean, you can. He picks it up, and

Clip:  he’s looking at looking at

Jim:  it over, and you can’t really see anything wrong with the cat. But with a guy, you definitely

Todd:  Well, when everybody comes back Back later. Later, you know, it still has their scar.

Craig:  It’s a little inconsistent. I mean, if if this cat had been hit by a semi on the road, it would have been Engaged. Right. He Wasn’t that bad. No. Now I guess in theory, you know, Gage went to an undertaker, which again leads to all kinds of unanswerable questions. That’s right. You know? The kid the kid was embalmed.  You know? How is he gonna come back? Well, the the

Todd:  good thing he didn’t cremate him where he had no option.

Craig:  Right. Right. Yeah. The family comes back. Ellie notices there’s something different about the cat. It stinks. She doesn’t wanna be around it. The cat just hangs out.  It’s kind of menacing. And, really, the next big event is the big tragic event. They just are having a very nice family picnic out in their lawn, and, they’re flying a kite and, the dad’s happy. Everybody’s happy. It’s I mean, it it looks like a postcard.

Jim:  Yeah. It shows the big field behind them. Mhmm. They’re flying the car and say, hey, there’s no danger here. Right. No, really. You got all this room.

Craig:  I I noticed for the first time tonight, I thought, you know, maybe you should have picked a day where the wind was blowing in the other direction. This poses a little bit of a risk Todd, you know, taking a chance or maybe put up a fence and it might be something else too. But, Lewis and Gage are, you know, the others, Ninja is with them. They’re sitting kind of in the background at a table and Gage and Louis are kind of in the middle of the field and Gage takes the string and he’s running with it for a little while and it’s real, real cute. Eventually he drops it and everybody laughs and Lewis kinda turns around and is laughing with his family. Now he’s got his back to Gage and the spool with the string dislodges itself from some weeds and starts pulling towards the road and and Gage starts going after it. Long story short, Lewis tries to catch him but he doesn’t get there in time and he gets hit by, Gage gets hit by a semi, and and he’s dead, obviously.

Todd:  That’s pretty heartbreaking.

Jim:  And when I saw that the first time, of course, Craig was only 7 years older and gave

Craig:  Yeah.

Jim:  You know, at that time. But as a parent, I mean, it it was so real. Thinking, okay. You look up and you see your kid running. He’s quite a ways off. Mhmm. And I was thinking, man, can I get to him in time? And that guy was running just as fast as he could. And you think, oh, man.  He’s gonna make it. And then he reaches, and you think, oh, he’s gonna get him. He reaches, and then doesn’t do it. I’m thinking, man, what worse thing could happen to a parent, you know, than that be that close?

Craig:  I was gonna ask you about that because didn’t That

Jim:  bothered me for a long time.

Craig:  Well, it because something happened like that when I was a kid. Right? Like, didn’t, you had to go help somebody with a flat tire or something? You left me in the car and

Jim:  It is horrifying. Brenda’s sister was learning how to drive. Craig was probably Gage’s age, I would guess. Maybe a little bit older. And Brenda’s folks lived out in the country. And, and so she was taking her car driving just around the the roads back behind their house and things like that.

Todd:  Brenda’s Craig’s mom. Right.

Craig:  Yeah. And this is her sister Barbara,

Jim:  who she’s talking about. Craig Xan, who’s gonna drive. Well, I I don’t know why she’d been gone a long time or something. And we decided to go check on her. And so Craig and I went, and it wasn’t far where we found her. And and she was learning how to drive a clutch, and she’d stalled the car or something. The battery had died. But I pulled up behind her, and I get out and walked her car and talking to her about, hey.  This is what you need to do or whatever. I’d left the car running. And Craig was in the car, which looking back is tough. Right. That’s not the best thing to do. But I looked back and Craig was up on this hill and I’d run down the hill to to where Barb was. And here comes the car with with Craig. Craig’s got his hands on the seat, the front seat just hanging on.  And the car is coming towards us. And so I take off running for the car and it starts veering towards this fence and there’s a big field and down to the ditch. I think, oh. And so I’m running as fast as I can to get to it. And it’s going towards the fence. And I get to the door of the and he hits the fence at the same time. And it’s barbed wire fence. And that barbed wire just snaps in half and slices the side of my head wide open.  The car keeps on going. Craig’s yelling. But, I mean, he wasn’t screaming. You know, he just kinda and I went down this great big hill and and and it Todd, you know, for it could have been a lot worse. There’s no doubt about that. But so, yeah. I had that experience. That was obviously before we’ve gone to that movie.  So that’s probably why that that part because I had that feeling where you’re just in reach where I could have jumped in or whatever and put the brake on and you miss it. You know? And you don’t get that second chance. Well, I did, obviously, but he didn’t. So that that’s probably you know what? I’m glad, Craig, you brought that up because that part really didn’t bother me because he was so close to just grabbing that kid’s shirt or whatever and pulling back.

Craig:  Yeah. That’s really sad. And so then they have the funeral, and everybody’s devastated. Of course, the the father-in-law, Rachel’s dad, starts something with Lewis and, you know, punches him right at right in front of the casket. They kinda scuffle a little bit. The casket falls. I mean, it’s all it’s all really sad.

Todd:  Yeah. That that bit there, I thought was a little silly.

Craig:  Yeah. But, again, it comes right from the book.

Jim:  Does it Yeah. It does. And and, actually, in the book, I think the body came out of the cast. I think you’re right, maybe.

Todd:  You know,

Jim:  we saw it in the movie where the cast had opened a little bit when, you know, when it was falling, but it actually in the book. It’s rough. Yeah.

Craig:  They go home. Todd comes over because Judd knows. He can tell right away that Lewis is thinking things that he shouldn’t be thinking. He comes over, and Lewis says, you know, I buried my son today, Judd. I’m tired. I just wanna go to bed. And he said, I know you’re thinking things that you shouldn’t be thinking. And he says, you asked me before if anybody ever buried a person up there, and I told you no, and I lied.  And so then he tells the story of sometime right at the end of World War 2, a soldier had been on his way home and he had been killed, a local boy. And his dad had been so devastated that he buried him up in the pet air well in the ancient, in the Indian burial ground. And he came back and just like everybody, everything else we’ve seen, it wasn’t him, he was, you know Kinda zombified. Yeah. Zombie, basically. It’s a good way to describe it.

Jim:  And, again, you can see his injuries. You know, from the war or whatever. Yeah. You know, he’s got his I think a layman had a suit on, but I don’t know if he had a uniform on.

Craig:  I think it was uniform

Jim:  or whatever. But you can visibly see the injuries that he must have incurred that caused his death.

Craig:  Right. Right. The low you know, a local woman sees him wandering the street, and she goes to some of the guys in town and says this has gotta be stopped. It’s an abomination.

Todd:  So they take a very extreme measure.

Craig:  Yeah.

Jim:  Yeah.

Todd:  And and go to just burn the whole house down.

Craig:  With people in it.

Todd:  With people in it. With the dad

Craig:  in it. Yeah.

Jim:  Well, I think the mom was there too. Maybe.

Craig:  And I don’t know. I I think maybe it was just the dad. But, Now I heard in

Todd:  the background, and maybe it was just am I wrong about this? But it sounded an awful lot like Judd’s voice.

Craig:  But Yeah. No. Judd was one of them.

Todd:  Okay.

Craig:  Yeah. And Judd was actually he was the one I mean, it’s a different actor, obviously, but he was the one who he opened the door. He was the one that said, come on. Come out. Come out. He’s not your son anymore or something like that. But the guy won’t come out, and then it kinda seems like the sun is keeping him from going out. And this is a part of the movie again that I think is just kinda cheesy, like the the from inside, you can hear the sun saying, like, hate living, love dead, or something like that.  It’s kinda kinda goofball. But the whole lesson of Judd’s story is sometimes dead is better. And that’s what he tries to get him to believe. But, Lewis sends

Todd:  But then he also says, I feel like I’m responsible for your son’s death. And when he first says it, I think it’s before the story, and you’re thinking, why? Well, what does he have to do with it? And, then afterwards, he says that it’s the ground itself, the whatever mystical spirit or whatever it is that’s making these things come across that is punishing him for taking that action. They should never have shown him the cemetery. Should never have, told him to bury the cap there, and now it’s coming back to sort of exact its revenge on the on the family.

Craig:  Well, and that’s again, it’s hinted at in the movie, but it’s it’s played out more in the book. And you had said earlier, if Judd had that experience with his dog, why would he have a friend bury their cat out there? And in the book, it’s more suggested that there’s power out there in those woods, and that it can influence people. And so that Judd may have been influenced to do that even though it would have been going against his better judgment. Right.

Jim:  Right. That’s a good point. And so he just did know the bad experience, and that’s twice Uh-huh. That we get that message that, hey, that’s no place to really bury. You know, that’s bad ground, like Pascal said, at sour ground or whatever. And then Todd knows it. Judd knows it firsthand what happened. So yeah.  It’s kinda confusing how you could call it turned out different.

Craig:  Right. Yeah. I I think, you know, it’s hinted in the movie, but in the book, it’s more so that, them doing that, them burying the cat kind of woke something or gave energy and then allowed it, continued to be able to influence them even more. And so maybe Gage’s death would have not happened had they not stirred up that energy or whatever. In the book, they talk about, like, the wendigo, which is like an ancient Indian demon kind of thing and that at some point, Lewis thinks he sees it out in the forest or whatever. We don’t get it in the movie. But Lewis sends the rest of the family back to Chicago with the grandparents, and, as soon as Judd finds that out because, Rachel calls to check on Lewis because she can’t get a hold of him, Judd knows what’s going on, and we do too. Lewis goes to the graveyard.  He digs up Gage and, even though Todd is trying to stay awake to keep watch, he falls asleep. Again, in the book it’s suggested that whatever power is out there made him fall asleep so he would miss it. And, Lewis goes and he buries Gage in the ancient burial ground.

Todd:  But at the same time, back at the parents’ house, they’re trying to reach him because Ellen had another dream. And again, Ellen’s having all these dreams that are getting people worried. And she says, this guy, Pascal, was talking to me. That’s right. And the and the mother’s like Pascal, and she remembers the name, but is she supposed to be putting 2 and 2 together? Did she actually know that kid’s name?

Craig:  She’s putting 2 and 2 together because she does. Yeah.

Todd:  Oh, okay.

Craig:  He he it was in the paper, I think.

Todd:  Oh, that’s okay.

Craig:  And I guess, you know, Lewis may have told her too, but, yeah, she puts 22 together.

Todd:  And Pascal himself is manifesting. He’s not appearing directly to the to her, but he’s suggesting thoughts into her head. And then when she goes to the airport, to get the plane out, there’s supposedly no well, she gets right right on, and he’s slightly holding the door open to give her the extra seconds she needs. And when she needs to get a car. He’s suggesting to the car keeper who which I thought was super corny.

Clip:  I’m sorry. It’s been very busy. I really don’t have anything.  What about the Ares K? The one with the scratch on its side?  I do have an Ares K.

Todd:  Like the mandurian candidate or something like that. So there’s this race for her to get back, but, of course, you know, the damage has been done.

Craig:  Yeah. And Pasco you know, she keeps running into problems. She has a flat tire. Pascal is saying, it’s trying to keep you away. It’s trying to keep you away. So she’s determined to get there. She eventually ends up pitching a ride ironically in one of the same trucks that and not just any old big truck, but from the same company, like it’s an identical truck with the number number 666 on it. But she she gets back.  But before she gets back, Gage comes back, and we see him in silhouette. And this was a part that I thought that they did really well from the book. You know, Gage, you you see his feet. You don’t get the reveal of what he looks like, but you see his feet, you see his silhouette and shadows, and he goes and and gets out of his dad’s medical bag, a scalpel, and then, heads over to Judd’s house.

Todd:  You know, it becomes very clear at this and it’s good that at least at this point, we’re we’re starting to realize there’s more than just the dead coming back to life, but there’s some sort of power compelling them. Because otherwise, it would make no sense for this little kid to come back and immediately dive in and go for a scalpel.

Craig:  And see, if I remember correctly, and I may not, this is fuzzy in my head, but I feel like if I remember correctly, when Gage came back, he wasn’t, like, zombie, like the other guy. I feel like he was conscious and spoke articulately and not even in his child voice, but in a different voice. So it’s almost as though he had his body had been possessed by some other being, maybe that Wendigo or whatever, you know, spirit they talk about in in the book. But here, when he comes back, he still talks in little baby voice, but they do a really good job of making it creepy. Yeah. They take the cute little giggles from the first part of the movie, and I don’t know. Are they filtering it somehow?

Todd:  It gets tweaked a little bit to make it, evil. Of course, anytime, you know, almost every horror movie, you can make it scary by putting some child’s laugh in there. Right. You don’t need to need to filter it at all as long as you have creepy music behind it.

Jim:  Well, and I think the scary part, you know, maybe coming from regardless of what the laugh sound like. You know, we know that this kid’s dead. And he’s laughing. You hear him laughing, and it is the same voice

Craig:  Mhmm.

Jim:  You know, as he was when he was a kid. And and looking at him, you really couldn’t tell. Although he looked a little pale. Yeah. But you really couldn’t tell he was dead.

Todd:  No. Right. You couldn’t. Now was there a scar across

Craig:  his forehead? Forehead

Jim:  looked like or or or something. Yeah.

Todd:  I mean,

Craig:  it just it looked like the Undertaker had done a good job. Yeah. Yeah.

Todd:  I guess that’s the case. Well, and the fact, as I said earlier, the fact that he’s toddling around, he’s got a little more energy here. He dives down at one point out of the attic. Mhmm. And we’ll talk about that. I mean, he clearly has has more abilities than a kid that age

Jim:  would have. Right.

Craig:  Right. Definitely.

Todd:  You know, I think my one of my criticisms, and I think just like what you were saying, Craig, of maybe sticking a little too close to the subject material, and there are things you can get across in a book that are very difficult to get across in the movie. This power behind them is one of them. If you had had a a counterpart to Pascal, if you had had some other creature or being or person who would also maybe be coming in here and and obviously visually influencing the bad things or or whispering go there or do this or whatnot. And that’s just off

Craig:  the top of my head,

Todd:  but something like that maybe would have made it a little clearer. I think I feel like it comes a little too late in the movie Mhmm. That we realize that the ground or the area out there has a power of its own, which would have compelled Judd. Otherwise, it just leaves those questions like, well, why the hell did they do that in the first place?

Craig:  Well, and it’s also, you know so, the the kid Gage goes over to Judd’s house and kinda toys with them cat and mouse, and eventually, we get to that part that freaked me out where from underneath the bed, he slices Jud’s

Todd:  Freaks everybody out.

Craig:  Yeah. He slices Jud’s Achilles’ heel, and then Judd falls, and he slices his face, and then he bites his jugular. And that comes across, I think, as way scarier in a book. In a movie, especially when you’ve got Fred Gwen, who’s probably about 7 feet tall, you’re thinking, how is this 2 foot tall?

Jim:  And he had a knife in his hand. I don’t know. He probably dropped a knife or what.

Craig:  I mean, yeah. You would fall if your Achilles’ heel, but you would still have use of your arms. Oh, okay.

Todd:  Absolutely. And and and in fact, the film makes it worse because it does that close-up on him clutching the carpet while his his, neck is

Craig:  being No.

Todd:  He could’ve been he could’ve been having grabbing

Jim:  the kids coming to a classroom or whatever.

Todd:  It doesn’t come across very well in the film.

Craig:  Well, and plus, of course, I mean, for a lot of that, they have to use a dummy. I Yeah. I mean, they’ve they’ve got that little kid doing some pretty creepy stuff. I mean, you Yeah. You question

Todd:  his parents. Oh, they saw the dollar figures in

Craig:  the future.

Jim:  Oh, yeah.

Craig:  I’m sure. Todd cute kid, good actor. Anyway, so he kills Todd, and then the mom arrives in the semi truck. Meanwhile, Lewis is still asleep back at home. As soon as the well, there’s a a good line where Pascal says he appears in the car in the truck and says, this is the end of the road for me. I can’t go any further. You’re on your own now. And she says, I’m sure everything will be fine.  She says that to the trucker who had also said, you know, whatever. Goodbye or whatever. And, Pascal says, I’m not. Like, I’m sure everything will be fine. I’m not. Closes the door. As soon as she gets out, she hears the laughter. Well, first, she hears, right out, the the sister’s voice, Zelda’s voice.  And then it turns into Gage’s laughter. So she goes over there. And, again, you know, it’s it’s weird. It’s never really explained how this happens. Like, it almost seems like Jud’s house kind of becomes her childhood house, or at least it’s really reminiscent. Mhmm. And there’s a painting of Zelda as a child that was in her parents’ house that now I think appears in Judd’s house.

Jim:  Oh, yeah.

Craig:  So there’s obviously supernatural stuff going on, but it’s not really explained. She walks into the back bedroom, which looks just like where Zelda’s bedroom was in her childhood house, and there’s Zelda, crouched down in a corner, dressed in the same blue outfit that she was in the painting and that Gage will be, too here in a minute. And she says, we’re gonna get you I mean, it’s it’s really creepy, you know, in her creepy voice and she she runs up to her really fast. Rachel starts to swoon like she’s gonna faint and then you hear the baby laugh again. And when she looks down, there’s Gage. And like my dad said, he looks a little different. He’s pale, but he’s still a cute little kid.

Todd:  Doesn’t he have a hat on too with,

Craig:  like, a

Jim:  cane? That.

Todd:  Well, I What was that all about?

Craig:  See, I always wondered about that when I was a kid, so I was watching more closely. I think that’s what they buried him in. I think they buried him in one of those fancy schmancy Yeah.

Jim:  I think so. And that was the grandparents. And because if you remember, when you saw all these expensive paintings Mhmm. And and things in the parents’ house, her parents’ house, they had kid with the top hat on. Right. Uh-huh. And it’s really it’s it’s a real famous painting, but I can’t remember what it is. Yeah.  I don’t know. But he’s got the top hat on, and and that was the portrait in the her parents’ house.

Craig:  Yeah. And so the kids just like, hi, mommy or something. And she and, again, like, wouldn’t you be kind of horrified? I don’t know. Again, I’m not a parent. I don’t know what would be running through a person’s mind, but he says, come here. I have something for you. And he pulls out the scalpel, and she just, you

Todd:  know, kind of Tries to embrace him. Right. And then all this happens off screen at this point. Right? We hear kind of a scream or we hear a sound of a knife slashing. And the scream. Yeah. And then, when when what’s his name wakes up

Craig:  when Lewis.

Todd:  Lewis wakes up, he goes over. He hears the sounds. Come come over here, daddy. Gage calls them. Yeah. So he goes over and he goes upstairs and he comes across the body of Judd. He walks into the hallway and then the top attic door flops open. And down comes the mother who’s kind of hanging, which leads you to wonder how this little kid Real.

Jim:  How the kid did that?

Todd:  This kid did do that. Okay. He’s Right. I don’t know. Magic now. Power. Yeah. He dies down on him, and they have their struggle.

Jim:  Again, like you said, how he he could same kid took on his 7 foot guy.

Todd:  Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much.

Jim:  But yeah. That’s the other extra power.

Todd:  But dad dad went over there with the intent of putting an end to it all. So he had he actually syringed the cat out in front with some some kind of poison, I guess, and he had another one. I actually had a couple Mhmm. For his son. And when his son comes towards him to attack, he stabs it into his neck. I think, obviously, in the book, this comes I mean, it’s heartbreaking. He’s basically he lost his kid once, and now he has to be the one to kill him a second time. Terrible, terrible, very big emotional stuff.  Boy, it still comes across as a little schlocky in the movie.

Craig:  A little bit, except for I’m so impressed with Meeko Hughes’ performance. I mean, it’s it’s really short, and I’m sure they did a 1000000 takes, with with, you know, of him being so little. But that him getting the syringe and his face being angry and then kind of softening a little bit.

Jim:  And tears coming down his face Mhmm. Todd during that. And and someone’s like, why, daddy? Why?

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then and then he walks away in that, oh, that no fair. No fair. I don’t know. It gets me. And it’s it’s all it’s all to the credit of that kid, the performance. Definitely.  And then, you know, there he he kinda stumbles down the hall, and he stumbles backwards and, you know, falls against the wall. I get what you’re saying, and it’s totally a little schlocky, especially because for a good part of the time when they’re struggling, it’s clearly a dummy. You know, a a tiny dummy that this guy is trying to unbelievably struggle with. So I get what you mean, but that kid saves it for me. Okay.

Todd:  I can see that.

Jim:  He did at the end. But, again, like Todd was saying, well, there’s there’s 2 things that I’m questioning. She gets home. The mom gets home, pulls up, and starts going in the house, but then she hears her sister’s voice. I didn’t know whose voice it was until you just said it, but that you’re right. It was sister’s voice. Would she really go across the

Todd:  street Yeah. Right. Right in front of

Jim:  her home

Craig:  I know. I thought the same thing.

Jim:  Without going in and seeing checking on her husband. Yeah. That’s why she came back so quick for it. Right. But she goes over there anyway. Now she didn’t know any of this

Todd:  Anything. No.

Jim:  Anything. So when she sees Gage, I’m thinking, what?

Craig:  I mean, her reaction just pretty

Jim:  much is holding her arms out and

Craig:  Yeah.

Jim:  But reality, you see a kid that you think’s dead

Todd:  Well, with this

Craig:  guy going on.

Jim:  What what’s going on? I mean, you don’t know any story about the pet cemetery or the special.

Todd:  Plus you just get horrified by this vision of your sister Yeah. Just a second ago, which apparently you didn’t think was real.

Craig:  I guess.

Todd:  You know? Yeah.

Craig:  Well, the to be honest, the story’s full of holes. How how does what does this guy, you know, what does Lewis think is going to happen? You know, even if Gage came back and was just his old self again. You know? You got explained him to do. Just kidding. He wasn’t really dead. It was all a big trick on you. Like, it it doesn’t make any sense.

Jim:  Well, but I can I can see that? I I can believe that, you know, because especially when he was that close to saving him. As a parent, if somebody came to you and said, hey, let’s let’s just take a week and bury him over in this cemetery and and he’ll come back. I think as a parent, you would do anything Yeah. And say, well, even if he is a little weird, you know, or whatever, smells like dirt or whatever, hey. That’s better than not having him at all. I can handle that.

Craig:  Well and and the way that I interpret, especially in the movie, is that Lewis really has just he’s lost his mind. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He the agreed

Jim:  Orchard Todd. I mean, yeah.

Craig:  Yeah. Orchard Wood. And that’s why after he kills Gage, he then takes his wife down and starts across the street with her towards the cemetery. Why not? Pascal comes back and says, don’t do this. Don’t make it worse. And he says, well, Gage was dead for a long time. She’s only been dead for a little bitty time. She’ll it it’ll be different.

Jim:  And if I remember right, I I think they talked quite a bit more about that in the book. There was this time lapse. I mean, the quicker you get them Uh-huh. In the ground in that special cemetery, the better they’re gonna be. Right. And that was kind of Or

Craig:  the more like themselves. Like themselves. But in the movie, he takes her you know, Pascal screams, no. Don’t do it. But then he disappears and Lewis takes her up there, buries her, comes back home, waits. She shows back up, comes in walking kind of sultrally into the door. But, again, she’s all gross. Like, she’s missing an eye, and, like, pus is, like, pouring out

Jim:  of her eye socket. And which was kinda odd because she hadn’t been dead that long. Yeah. And she was probably got buried the quickest.

Todd:  Like, what did he do to her?

Craig:  I think the suggestion was that he had eaten part of her face. Oh. Because remember, he sliced Judd’s face, but then when when Lewis found Judd, the whole bottom part of his jaw had been torn off or chewed off. So I think that Gage had eaten part of her. Yeah. That makes sense. She’s all gross, and this always, even when I was a kid, grossed me out. The pus is coming, like, right over her lips, and then they start making out.  It’s just disgusting.

Todd:  Yeah. I have to say, that is the scene.

Jim:  Well, he’d pick a plate

Clip:  and lost it.

Craig:  Yeah. Obviously.

Todd:  Between the Achilles tendon getting cut and that scene that you just described, those are the 2 things that stuck with me, this one. From 1989 until now.

Craig:  Yeah. They’re making out, she grabs a big old butcher knife off the table, and we cut to black, and we just hear his scream, and that’s the end.

Todd:  And then we get, the credits and this song by The Remote, and I didn’t even realize this. I just heard the song go on. I’m like, oh, that’s kind of one of those again, one of those catchy rock tunes they always play at the end. And the the song is like, And I’m like, this is dumb. But it got to the end of the credits. It’s by The Ramones. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig:  I’m like, what? Stephen King is a big fan of The Ramones, and he wanted to use their their music in the movie, and he did. The the trucker is listening to The Ramones. She he’s then she was in the Sheila is a punk rocker when he when Gage gets hit. Yeah. And so they were, you know, they were happy that Stephen King was a fan and that he wanted to use their music, so they wrote this song for the movie.

Todd:  It’s a

Craig:  very pointed song. It’s very 80. It’s very 80. And I thought he would end it

Jim:  with Craig Love, something like that.

Todd:  Yeah. Right?

Jim:  That would’ve been When they were kissing right there at the end. That would’ve been good.

Craig:  Well, I still like this movie, and I’ve seen it dozens of times at this point. I don’t think it’s aging well. Mhmm. I think it’s showing its age. And, there’s really nothing special about the cinematography. I mean, it it’s it’s adequate, but it just feels like good television cinematography. Yeah. You’re right.  Yeah. Like it like The Walking Dead or or something. You know, you’ve got the outdoor settings, and and, you know, they’ve they’ve clearly got a budget and there’s good scope, but there’s just really nothing noteworthy, about it. Some of the casting, I I like I said, the mom, I’m not a real huge fan.

Jim:  A real famous star.

Craig:  Her name is Denise Crosby. I don’t know what else she’s been in, but you’re right.

Todd:  She mentions her recognizable, especially from that time period.

Craig:  Yeah. And it’s not that I have anything against her personally, Denise. I’m sure you’re listening. Yeah. I just don’t think it was a a great casting choice. The dad was played by Dale Mid Midkiff, I think. Again, another really recognizable face. I I can’t really peg anything else specifically that he’s been in, but really recognizable.  That role was intended for Bruce Campbell. Really? That would have made it a different movie, wouldn’t it?

Todd:  I sure would’ve.

Craig:  Bruce Campbell’s the guy from the Evil Dead movies. Yeah.

Todd:  I’m not sure if it would’ve made it better. I don’t know.

Craig:  No. I don’t think so either. It would have been interesting to see. Yeah. Ellie was played by a pair of twins. And, again, you know, Fred Fred Gwen, I’m I’m a big fan of his. But

Todd:  He was great. I think he was one of the strongest characters in this film.

Craig:  He’s my favorite. He’s my favorite part of the movie. I think he’s the reason that I keep But it’s passable. You know, I they of course, they’re always talking about potentially remaking everything. You know, this has come up to be remade multiple times.

Todd:  Wasn’t there a sequel as well?

Craig:  Oh, terrible, awful sequel.

Jim:  Did you

Craig:  ever see it? No. I didn’t. Oh, it’s awful. Start Edward Furlong, if that tells you anything.

Todd:  Oh, is it like a direct to video kinda deal?

Craig:  I think it got a theatrical release, but it was it was not good.

Todd:  As I remember, the movie wasn’t critically reviewed very well, but it was a popular movie when it came out. I mean, I think everybody at the time anyway thought it was one of the better Stephen King adaptations. I know that, you know, after maximum overdrive and junk like that. Right. Right. I know that, you know, my friends would talk about it. We watched it. We had it on VHS, and we’d pop it in every showing its age, and, it’s just a little overwrought at times, a little overly dramatic.  A lot of that probably just has to do probably with what you said about just sticking a little too close to that source material.