2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

Excision is a sublime horror movie with an all-star cast that seems to have flown completely under the radar.

Excision (2012)

Episode 20, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Welcome to another episode of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.  I’m Todd.

Craig: I’m Craig. 

Todd:  And today, we watched a film called Excision. Excision as opposed to incision. Craig, this film was your idea. You’d heard of it. What’s the story? 

Craig:  Yeah. I know. When we do our extensive research to figure out what movie we’re gonna 

Clip:  watch each week Yeah. We put a lot of thought 

Craig:  into this, don’t we? I was just, it’s our 20th episode, so I wanted to do something different. And so I just kinda I think I Google searched horror movie lists or something along those lines, and this, popped up on several lists of movies you probably haven’t seen and should. I kind of heard about it. I remember I mean, it came out in, like, 2012, so it’s been a while. Yeah. I remember hearing about it when they were making it, but I other than that, I really knew nothing about it. But, when I mentioned it to you, you kinda took a look at the cast list. 

Todd:  Oh my gosh. Yeah. I never heard of it at all. And, yeah, I looked at the cast list, and I’m like, okay. You got Craig Lourdes, Craig Wise, Malcolm McDowell, my good buddy Bill Oberst junior, and and I pretty much stopped there and said, well, we gotta see this. What a cast. 

Craig:  Yeah. The cast is amazing. Like, everybody I I swear, pretty much every cast member in this film is recognizable from something. Yeah. And it’s not to say necessarily that they’re all a list actors, but these are all working actors who you’re gonna recognize from other pictures. And I’m sure as we talk about them, we’ll kinda mention some of those things. But Annalyn McCord, is the main girl. She plays Pauline.   She kinda rose to fame with the 90210 reboot. She was kind of the vixen there. And so here, she’s really kinda playing against character. In in real life, she’s very beautiful, sexy, glamorous. And in this film, she plays, a homely Yeah. Weirdo. Yeah. 

Todd:  It was like doesn’t it seems like doesn’t even have makeup on half the time. It’s pimple faced, very Nousy hair. Total misfit adolescent Right. Really. Misunderstood, the kind of girl who just, can’t really seem to get through to anybody, doesn’t really care to let anybody in, seems to be off in our own little world most of the time Right. With these sort of bizarre weird fantasies. It it’s almost strange to believe that she’s grown up in this household with her sister being almost the polar opposite of her. 

Craig:  Right. You’ve got she’s got a little sister played by Ariel Winter who is still on Todd Family and doing very well. And she lives in, you know, upper middle class suburbia, it appears. You know, very nice home. The mother, Tracey Lourdes, is, you know, is, you know, trying to make them the picture perfect family. Mhmm. Very concerned about that, and Pauline just doesn’t fit in. She’s weird.   She’s a weird girl. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And I and I thought that Analyn McCord. You know, I don’t know much about her. I I saw maybe an episode of 90210, and she played very stereotypical bitch, you know, nothing nothing special. I thought she did a good job here of playing weird, but also pretty believable, especially in the beginning. Now she’s definitely got weird quirks. The movie opens up with a dream sequence, and we get these dream sequences throughout. And they’re super, super stylized. They look almost like a music video.   Yeah. Like, really bright colors, really striking images. And she has these fantasies, and we open with one of them, that are both morbid and bloody and gross and also hypersexualized. Yeah. Like, like, she gets off on on mutilation and blood and stuff, and we’re introduced to that right from the very beginning. So right from the very beginning, we know that there’s something weird going on in her mind. But beyond that, she kinda plays your typical I don’t know. Not your typical teenager, but that type of teenager.   You know, the the kind of loner. She doesn’t really fit in anywhere. She’s different. She has trouble making friends. And and as far as that portrayal was concerned, I thought she did a really good job. 

Todd:  Yeah. She did. And, you know, you could almost take out those gory interludes, and this would play like an angsty teenager comedy, like a like an updated John Hughes kinda movie. 

Craig:  Right. Right? Darker, obviously. I mean, the the comedy is dark, but, yeah. I mean, it’s it’s kind of, just your typical tale of of, an outcast who is different and doesn’t fit in, in her family, in school, wherever. 

Todd:  Yeah. She doesn’t seem to have any friends. Mm-mm. You you’re never introduced to anybody who could possibly be her friend. She’s at it alone. Her sister is really the only one she seems to have a bond with. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And, her dad played by, Roger Bart? 

Craig:  Yeah. Roger Bart who it took me a long time, but I I did finally figure out he, what I remember him most from is, Hostel 2. He was one of the main villains. He was kind of this average guy who, if you’ve watched the hostile things, they pay, you know, to be able to torture people and stuff, and he’s kind of conflicted about it. But then at the end, he ends up being one of the most brutal. He was also in Desperate Housewives, but, again, just so recognizable in all of them. And he seems a little bit what’s the word? Detached? Maybe a little bit aloof. Maybe a little bit beaten down.   Yeah. His wife is very controlling. You know? She and and not particularly affectionate. 

Todd:  No. Not at all. His wife, played by Craig Lords, as you mentioned, her name is Phyllis. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And, Phyllis through this whole film is is just you can’t like her at all. She’s again, that sort of stereotypical overbearing mother. Everything’s about her. Everything revolves around her, and she’s gonna sit around and have something to say about every member of the family. Most of it’s criticisms, and most of it’s directed towards Pauline. Right. 

Clip:  Chew with your mouth closed. Really, Pauline? I’ve raised you better than that. Yes. You may be excused. 

Todd:  It’s hard to imagine this guy just sitting there through the whole thing, except that he’s lived through so many years of marriage, that this is just the way he is. There’s an odd scene between the 2 of them. Well, there are a lot of odd scenes in this movie. And I guess the one thing that struck me about this movie is that it’s a movie of, like, pastiches. It’s just separate scenes that begin and end and are almost disconnected from each other. There’s not a comfortable flow Right. From in narrative from one to the other, and we’ll talk about it more later, but I almost got this feeling that I was watching a a Wes Anderson movie in a way, but kind of crossed with, Paul Thomas Anderson too. 

Craig:  Who what does he do? Right? 

Todd:  He he did, like, Boogie Nights. Oh, right, Enolia, those movies. Right. It’s like it’s trying to be somewhere in between those 2. You know, you get these shots where and it’s a very wide screen. Mhmm. And, shoot, most of the movie’s dialogue, there’s very little action actually happening. Except for the fantasy sequences, and 

Craig:  there’s not a lot of dialogue there. And and it’s those sequences are are so different in style. I mean, there’s a direct contrast. You’re the cinematography guy, but I I found myself being really intrigued not only by that really stylized stuff, but just the cinematography in general. There was a lot of really neat framing Mhmm. Especially with, you know, shots on individual characters. They’re framed right in the middle of this wide, wide screen. And, like, the mom, there are many scenes at the dinner table, family dinner, and every time, it’s focused on her, again, right in the middle of the screen, and the wall behind her is just kind of this stark gray.   Mhmm. So it just set I mean, it’s almost like a portrait. Yeah. And it really highlights her personality. Just really austere and clean, I guess. 

Todd:  Yeah. It really sets her apart from everybody else in the table. Everyone’s got a little background behind them and, looks like they’re in a living room, and she looks like she’s sitting down for a photographer. Right. Right. It does. It suits her personality really well. And every scene’s kind of like that where when people are talking to each other, they’re planted in place, they’re not moving really or taking any action, and it’s a close-up on 1 person’s head and a close-up on another person’s head to the point where it almost looks like they’re talking at the camera half 

Clip:  the time Uh-huh. 

Todd:  Instead of each other. And it also makes for these very unnatural sort of scenes, unnatural sorts of framing where suddenly we jump in and we’re in the middle of a scene, and 2 people are just standing in front of each other, and they’re in the middle of a conversation, I guess, but there’s enough pause that it seems like the conversation is just starting up when you get there. Almost like, each scene has been put on pause, and then when we come to it, somebody’s unpausing it for us. Right. And we’re going on, and then we hit pause again, which is a lot like kind of the Wes Anderson movies. You know, they try to be very understated Mhmm. And framed up like a diorama 

Craig:  of sports. Yeah. 

Todd:  Except that what he does is he really, like, literally create creates an almost a diorama around people where the the background is interesting, and it’s a pretty picture right there. This has that feeling with with none of the visual. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  You know? 

Craig:  It’s more sparse. I mean, there’s less going on. And it’s interesting what you said about, you know, the conversations. You focus on 1 person, then it shifts the focus to the other, and it seems almost like they’re kinda communicating through the camera. I think it really kinda highlights the disconnect between the family and the characters, especially with Pauline. I mean, she doesn’t really have a connection with anybody. There are some scenes, several scenes, where her mom tries to sit her down on the couch and kind of have a more intimate heart to heart with her. But even in those scenes, the mother will be turned in.   They’re sitting on a couch. The mother will be turned in facing Pauline, but Pauline is always facing straight out. They’re they’re not facing one another. So there’s even still the disconnect there. The only time that you really do kind of see connection, is between Pauline and Grace, her sister. They interact on screen, and they do interact with eye contact and and their, you know, physical connection. So you do get the sense that at least she does have this feeling for her sister, and that plays an important role later on down the line. 

Todd:  That’s right. There’s it’s almost like everyone’s talking at her. Right. Right? And they’re not connecting at all. And you’re right. The cinematography does a pretty good job of getting that across as well as the dialogue. It’s very sparse dialogue. It’s honestly, I felt almost a little artificial.   I’m sure it was intended to be that way, but it’s very to the point and direct in the way that people don’t normally really talk to each other. Right. You know? We usually beat around the bush a little bit. We usually think about what we say. We usually stumble over our words or our 

Craig:  casualness to conversation. And here, everything seems so forced. Just to communicate at all seems like a major effort for for everybody, especially anybody trying to communicate with Pauline, and she is aloof and and kind of cut off. She’s sarcastic and biting. You know, some some pretty typical teenage angsty stuff, but, it’s it’s an interesting kind of character study with the dynamics, of the family, especially. 

Todd:  The the words that come out of Pauline’s mouth sometimes sound like comic book guy. Yeah. You know? She’s a very intellectual. She thinks a lot about things. She’s obviously, she thinks a lot about death. Like you said, it starts out with this fantasy that she’s having of her sitting across from herself, basically, except her other self is sort of convulsing and spitting blood, This gross stuff, and it keeps coming back to those fantasies that she has. In the meantime, her sister, Grace, has cystic fibrosis, and, she’s on a ventil well, I guess, something that taking breathing treatments. Breathing treatments, you know, every now and then, so that comes up.   And, she’s going to therapy. Right. 

Craig:  No. The mom the mom. What did you say the mom’s name was? I can’t remember. Phyllis. Phyllis Yeah. Picks picks Pauline up from school and says we’re we’re going to your appointment. I 

Clip:  guess we better get going. We don’t wanna be late for your appointment. Could you please have the decency to take me to an actual psychiatrist? Your father and I are not made out of money. Reverend William is a very bright man. You’re lucky to have him. He’s doing you a real favor. 

Craig:  So then she gets to her appointment and awesome awesome. The, 

Todd:  It’s John Waters. 

Craig:  It’s John Waters. 

Todd:  This is like the the perfect and that’s the comedy and the casting right here too. Like, John Waters is the joke. You know? Here’s John Waters playing a priest. 

Clip:  Right. 

Todd:  And he’s just staring at her, and he’s got that look on his face like, I really don’t know what to do with you. Right? 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And she clearly doesn’t wanna be there either and sees through his facade. He has nothing to he doesn’t even make an effort, really. Yeah. And that’s like everybody in this film. Nobody really makes a real effort. Even the mother’s arguably the only one making any kind of effort isn’t really an effort. It’s, again, it’s she’s not trying to connect with her very well. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s it’s like she’s a problem that needs to be solved. She’s she’s a burden. And now, you know, and and the same thing happens with, her teachers, and and I work with teenagers. So I know that it can be very difficult to put up with their Craig when when they act like that. But, yeah, I mean, there’s there’s very little compassion. You know? It I don’t know if she’s necessarily intentionally crying out, but this girl clearly has some issues that need to be resolved, and and nobody really is so much concerned about her general well-being. They’re more concerned about appearances and fixing her and making her normal.   Mhmm. The mom wants her to go to cotillion even though she’s, you know, beyond the age. It’s it’s it’s more for junior high kids. 

Todd:  But Does anyone ever do that anymore? Is that a real thing? Like, it still happens? 

Craig:  I think in some places, probably, a little bit wealthier places, they they do still do 

Todd:  things like that. That’s crazy. It is kinda crazy. I saw that, and I thought, this is is this just something the writer read about? Because, I mean, I know what it is, and I’ve heard about it and and but I just didn’t think that actually happened anymore. 

Craig:  I have friends well, see, now I’m 36, and so it’s been a long time since I’ve been in high school. But I had cousins and friends and things who who did, cotillion. 

Todd:  And for anyone who doesn’t know what cotillion is, it’s almost like a charm school for guys and girls that teaches them how to dance and interact with each other. Manners and right. Exactly. It’s weird. 

Craig:  It it is weird. You know? 

Todd:  They bygone era. 

Craig:  Right. You know, they get all dressed up in fancy suits and dresses and whatnot, and they get together, and it’s kind of like, the nerdiest social thing ever. 

Clip:  You do realize I’m too old for cotillion class. Missus Guthrie has decided to open her doors to a wider age range this year. She’s a dear friend and in dire need of assistance, so I’ve decided to take on a position as chaperone. You can’t be serious. No daughter of mine is going off to college without knowing the ins and outs of what it’s like to be a proper lady. I can’t wait for gazillion. And what do you have to say about all this? 

Todd:  I think what your mother is trying to do is since 

Clip:  Your mother? Excuse me. This was our decision. I knew dad had nothing to do with it. You don’t even have enough backbone to stand up for your own wife? You’re repulsive. Make sure Grace takes her pills. 

Craig:  And, obviously, she doesn’t fit in. No. It’s not something that she wants to do at all. And it’s difficult, even to kinda talk about plot because, really, most of it is centered around her struggles. Now some interesting parts, we’ve already talked about her dreams, and she has dreams throughout. And they’re all very similar in nature, dead bodies mutilated to various degrees. Oftentimes, the dead bodies seem to still be animated. Like like, they’re not dead.   They’re just really grotesque. They’re all very sexual. You know, you know, act behaving sexually with and around her, but there’s always that gore element too. You know? She’s she’s bathing in blood. She’s wiping blood on her face. She’s she’s, dissecting you know, sticking her hands into cut open corpses, all the while clearly enjoying herself. It cuts from those scenes to showing her in bed, and, again, you can tell that she’s sexually stimulated. And it’s it’s it’s disturbing. 

Todd:  It is. And it it’s interesting this you know, there’s a book that is on her desk when she’s talking, and one of the things she also talks about is how it’s clearly, like, she’s wants to be a surgeon. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  You know, whether one be got the other, who knows? Right. But she’s interested in surgery, and she’s interested in this medical stuff. And there’s a book that’s on her desk that constantly is kind of showing up called human sexuality, and then the subtitle is the psychosexual effects of disease. I didn’t see that. It’s interesting because you’re thinking disease as in she has a problem, you know, and this is kind of manifesting itself or disease because she’s her sister has disease, and this is kind of an obsession that she’s trying to see if she can fix her sister in some way, and maybe that was what spurred her on to maybe be interested in surgery. And you you kinda wonder if at some point growing up before we the events of this movie, her relationship with her sister has led her down this path. Maybe. And and maybe it’s a they’ve led her down this path this medical path, which then she’s really gotten into and it’s become the sexual thing for her or if that was just always below the surface.   Obviously, never explained, but I think there’s some depth there probably in character that, is hinted at anyway, during the movie. 

Craig:  Well, I think it we can only call it some kind of psychosis. I mean, it’s not normal. No. And and, you know, she’s she’s fascinated with these things in their dream in her dreams. And I don’t know if I if we’ve mentioned it yet, but in her dreams, it seems like she feels a sense of power and control. Mhmm. And and not only do you see that through her aggressive action, but in her dreams, she’s also very glamorous. She’s got in real life, she’s got this brown mousy hair.   She’s got, you know, acne all over her face. She’s got throughout part of the movie, she’s got a cold sore on her face. Her her looks are really downplayed. And in these dreams, she’s beautiful and glamorous with blonde, curly hair and and, 

Todd:  She’s climbing all over the Todd, dominating them. She’s leading other women down the hallway. 

Craig:  Right. Her and her, you know, her she wears things that are flattering to her body so that you can see that she is actually a very attractive young woman, but that doesn’t translate into her real life, which is something that I kept kind of thinking was strange. You know, she’s she’s having these dreams where she’s so beautiful and empowered in a sick way, but, you know She’s not trying Right. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Todd:  To fulfill them in any Right. Significant way. She’s more interested in the blood and sort of the the death Right. Almost. It’s interesting in the very beginning. Obviously, it kind of hits you with that, and then we get introduced to her family. And then the first event that really happens is she’s talking about how she wants to lose her virginity. And she overhears a couple girls talking.   It’s the The mean girls. The mean high school girls. Right? And 1 girl’s talking about her boyfriend, and they’re making comments about a shlong and stuff. And, his name is Adam. Mhmm. And she tells her sister that she’s going to lose her virginity. 

Clip:  I’m ready to lose my virginity. It’s a common virginity, I wanna be on my period. Girls, we’re having early dinner. 

Craig:  It just and even her sister. It seems like her sister wants them to have a relationship. But when she says stuff like that, her sister just kinda gives her a side eye, like, doesn’t look so weird. 

Todd:  I don’t know what to do with that information. Right. And so she approaches Adam with her phone number just very matter of fact. 

Craig:  Oh my god. It’s hilarious. She’s like, pardon me for being so up front or so forward or something like that. And meanwhile, you know, he’s sitting there with his bros. Like, you know, it’s not like this is a private conversation. 

Clip:  I wanna lose my virginity to you. I’m clean, and I just put my allowances on birth control. So 

Craig:  That’s nice. 

Clip:  Adam. It’s my number. Call me. You’re on the top of my list. Thank you. I won’t wait forever. 

Craig:  And Adam is this young cute kid. I I recognized him too, and I knew that he had been a child actor. I don’t know what his name is, but he was in a, a live action version of, Peter Pan. He played Peter Pan. Oh, yeah? Yeah. I know if you saw the the jacket of the DVD, you’d recognize him. Okay. Again, just more recognizable people.   So she gives him his number. He acts completely uninterested, of course. But later on, couple days later, she gets a phone call, and, it’s Adam, and she’s very kind of curt with him, but she says pick me up at 11 o’clock on Monday. It’s a teacher workday, and and we’ll do it. Yeah. 

Todd:  And she just hangs right up while he’s in the middle of talking. And, yeah, it’s a very awkward, scene. You know, there are a number of these kinds of scenes. Person loses their virginity for the 1st time in films, especially kids. It they’re always a little awkward. They’re played pretty realistic in that way, and she’s more or less in control telling him to just take his clothes off. There’s some comedy in there where he’s like, I stole this condom from my brother. Yeah.   It’s for the big ones. And then she looks and she’s like, you don’t you don’t need the big ones, but but that’s okay. We’re not gonna use a condom anyway. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And, you know, they’re having sex. And in the meantime, she there it’s flipping between them having sex and this alternate version in her mind of them having sex where she’s bleeding all over them and blood’s flying on the walls and she’s smearing blood on 

Craig:  her It’s splashing on the bed. I mean, tons of blood. There’s so much blood in this movie. Lots and lots of blood Todd the point where by the end, it was really kinda getting to me 

Todd:  a little bit. Really? Yeah. 

Craig:  I was really, yeah, kinda getting a little squeamish. 

Todd:  Well and it’s kind of presented in a in a gross clinical way. It’s those scenes that we’re talking about, those dream sequences, as you said, they’re in this bright room. They’re almost like each one of them is in a hospital. 

Craig:  Right? Well, it’s yes. It’s white bright white kind of a sterile looking environment. 

Todd:  Yeah. And if there’s a wall, it’s sort of a blue tiled wall. At one point, there’s an abortion type scene, and there’s a, clearly, a doctor character who takes this little baby thing away and puts it in an oven. And Yeah. 

Craig:  It’s it’s bizarre because after after they have sex and, again, it’s it’s totally awkward because she is menstruating. And, 

Todd:  He doesn’t notice that at first. 

Craig:  Right. He makes a comment that if you wanna stick the clip in, I I I can’t can’t bring myself to say it. Gotcha. Fuck it. What? 

Clip:  Thank you. I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t do it. 

Craig:  But then towards, the end of their romp, she she asks him to perform oral sex, and he does, which is when he realizes what has been going on. And, of course, he freaks out, and and takes her home and is not happy with her. But she got what she wanted out of the experience, and she’s pretty pleased with herself. 

Todd:  And she’s pretty pleased at sort of sabotaging this girl’s relationship with her boyfriend. 

Craig:  Right. Because Adam is is, Natalie, one of the mean girls, boyfriend. Right? 

Todd:  Yeah. And then then later on, there’s a scene obviously in the locker room where she’s confronted, and it’s, 

Craig:  Well, she drops hints. Like, after it happens, she approaches that group, you know, Adam and his friends and his girlfriend. And, she says I don’t remember what she 

Todd:  she’s told what she does is she asks, she she gives herself this, like, what she calls an STD test in the middle of science class where she’s just looking at her own blood under a microscope and she makes a comment to her friend. And then she goes out where Adam’s talking with his girlfriend. Was it Natalie you said? Uh-huh. 

Clip:  I’d watch out for Pauline if I were, she gave herself an STD test in science class today. Everything was fine. She can never be too careful. Yeah. Oh, Natalie, I meant to ask you. Do you have any STDs? Absolutely not. Good. Then neither do I.   Just kinda walks away. 

Craig:  And so then, apparently, you know, we don’t see it on screen, but Natalie and her other mean girlfriend, Abigail, kind of corner her in the locker and are just kinda being general bullies, telling her she’s ugly, that she looks like a boy. And, of course, she comes back with some really biting things like, yeah. Well, your vagina looks like a bloody ax wound 

Clip:  or something like that. 

Craig:  And she she always keeps her cool. You know? And it’s kind of sad that I I don’t know if she’s controlling her emotion or if she’s just kind of emotionless, but she always comes back with something kinda quippy. You know? She doesn’t really play the victim. No. So I I guess, Natalie had had gotten it out of Adam that they had Pauline and he had had sex, so they broke up. And so then you’ve got just this kind of antiguanistic thing between Pauline and the Mean Girls too. 

Todd:  Yeah. And it’s interesting because with those scenes, there’s a ton of comedy, and you’re right. She usually gets the upper hand verbally situations and pretty much anyone she’s dealing with whether they’re an adult or not. But then there are these scenes that Todd me honestly felt a little out of place where she seems very affected by her mother’s opinion of her. I think one of the first times it happens, and her mother and her have been having spats through this whole movie, usually over the dinner table because there are, like, 20 dinner table scenes in this movie, and they all look the same, and they all pretty much play out the same. It’s very monotonous in in that way. It must have been after one of these dinner table spats that, the mother goes into the room with her husband and just says, I don’t know. It’s just impossible to love her. 

Craig:  Right. I’ve I’ve tried and tried, but she’s disturbed, and it’s just she’s impossible to love. And Pauline hears this, and then you can I mean, it’s she’s by herself? You know? She’s eavesdropping, and she does. She breaks out in tears. And it’s a sad I mean, if you think about the whole circumstance, it’s it’s sad, and this movie’s extreme. It’s a horror movie. But underlying it, there are some, I think, like to pretend like nothing fazes them, they can be hurt. Yeah.   And and, you know, she plays that. Nothing you know, everything rolls off my back. But you see in privacy when her mom says something. And I think that when this happened, I don’t remember what instigated it. You know, they had been like you said, they fight through the whole thing, but they’re just sitting at the dinner table, and, Pauline just grabs some food off of her plate and flings it at her mother 

Todd:  Right. 

Craig:  With no provocation, with and with no explanation, and she just gets up and goes. And that’s kind of the last straw. To be fair, after that, the mom does try to reconnect with her. She tries to sit her down and say, I don’t understand what’s going on with you. I I just I I can’t understand it, she said. But, you know, when I was your age, my mother really hurt me, and I’m still trying to forgive her for that, and I don’t want us to have that kind of relationship. As overbearing as she is and as critical as she is, I got the sense and the dad says this several times. You know? Everything she does, she does out of love.   And as twisted as her attempts are Mhmm. I do think that she is you know, she does care for both of her daughters, and I think that it does come from a place of love, but she’s not a good 

Todd:  mom. No. And, you know, I think I think you live long enough, you encounter people like this who you know that they genuinely care, but they do it they show their care in all the wrong ways. It usually comes across as, I’m trying to fix you Mhmm. And I know what’s best for you. And so here’s what I’m going to say, and I’m just gonna expect you to do it. And that’s sort of the way she parents. Right.   Is she thinks that she can just sort of dictate to this girl how to be Right. And point out all of her flaws so that she can fix them. And even in that scene that you’re mentioning where she’s trying to reconcile, there is a huge disconnect still to where you can’t really sympathize too much with the mom. No. You know, she starts out and she’s kind of talking about it was a book that I read in book club that made me realize something about and the girl sees right through it and, of course, is very standoffish with it. You you almost wondered if mom had actually approached her in a very sincere manner if her response would have been a little different? 

Craig:  Well, may I think it would. I think maybe it would. And and you get the sense that she is a product of yes. She’s probably disturbed in some way. And maybe even the disturbance is a kind of a product of her upbringing. You know? Her mom wants to fit her into this very specific mold that she clearly doesn’t fit into. Whereas, you know, Grace, despite the fact that she is ill, you know, potentially terminally ill, she’s a very girly girl, and and she’s pretty, and she has a very pretty pink room with dollhouses and dolls. And, you know, she likes to look at bridal magazines and talk to boys.   And, you know, she’s kind of the mom’s pride and joy, and then she’s got this other kid who just is getting everything wrong. 

Todd:  And it’s a little tomboyish. She wants to be a surgeon. 

Craig:  Right. She she’s just an odd dirt an odd duck. You know? She’s weird. But something else that I was thinking of at one point, the mom says to Pauline, everything you do or the way that you act, the way that you behave makes you seem like a sociopath. Pauline says, well, based on the definition of sociopath, I think all teenagers are sociopaths, which in a way is kind of true. But it it it kinda made me wonder because part of you know? And I’m no psychiatrist, so I I’m speak I’m just talking out my ass. But from what I understand, part of that you know, part of being a sociopath is is complete egocentricity. Yes.   And, you kinda see that in the mom Yeah. A little bit too. You know? She may have kind of some tendencies as well. 

Todd:  Yeah. The apple isn’t full far 

Craig:  from the 

Todd:  tree there. It’s interesting that she never reaches that point of jealousy with her sister to where she hates her sister. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  You know? And and that’s an interesting touch to this movie. I would have expected, and I was expecting early on, a a kind of animosity towards her sister and the fact that she is treated so differently, which obviously is possibly a function of her disease. Right. You know? She’s the one that we baby and take care of that we’re proud of, but she still has a very good relationship with her, which comes into play pretty important, you know, later on. 

Craig:  Right. And another thing that we haven’t mentioned, and and this comes from very early in the movie and is consistent throughout. In addition to those dream sequences, we also have sequences where she’s praying. And the 1st time, that she you know, and it it looks like she’s kneeling somewhere, the entire background is black, and she’s entirely clad in black. So it almost looks like a floating head in arms. Mhmm. And and she’s kinda praying. And the first time she says, 

Clip:  I know I don’t believe in you, so you’re totally justified if you choose to ignore me. I just I’ve been meaning to get something off my chest. I haven’t read your book in its entirety. Just can’t bring myself to invest that much time into a work of literature that’s received so many mixed reviews. I’m an avid reader, and there’s just so much stuff out there. Okay. Here it goes. I’m planning on having premarital sex.   I know you’re not gonna be a 100% on board with it, which is why I was wondering if we could discuss your role surrounding forgiveness. I’m under the impression if I ask you to forgive me, you kinda have to, which is it’s pretty awesome. I’m just gonna say. If I’m off base, let me know. Otherwise, I’m gonna move forward as 

Craig:  planned. Amen. So she has these kinda direct conversations with God where she really talks about her feelings and what she’s going through. She vents her frustrations, and those are really interesting and I think reveal a lot about her character. And by the end, she concedes, I I guess I do really believe in you now. 

Todd:  Yeah. There’s a transformation. There’s a clear Right. Probably the only clear transformation that’s happening, honestly, throughout the this whole movie, every character is pretty much in stasis. I I just don’t see a lot of development, a lot of change in any of them except in her, really, and even her, not so much. Well, her 

Craig:  change it’s it’s kind of subtle, and it’s deteriorative. I mean, she, you know, she she falls into her psychosis. And I think part of that is just because she has nobody to connect to, she has nobody to talk Todd, Eventually, the parents concede, we’ll take you to an actual psychiatrist, but we can’t get you in until next week. So can you please just try to be normal until then? Yeah. And unfortunately, she’s not able to. But it you know, in her prayers, I I just found her prayer so interesting and funny. There was one, where she says, I’m not really a big fan of that whole your dead relatives looking down on you. She said, if I do get she said, I do some pretty weird things during the day, and I would really appreciate my privacy.   I don’t mean to be presumptuous, but if I do get into heaven and my relatives have been watching over me, a lot of relationships are probably gonna be compromised. 

Clip:  Oh, god. 

Craig:  And it’s just it’s so funny, and it’s it’s 

Todd:  It’s something we could all say. 

Craig:  Right. Right. Absolutely. And it it’s it’s nice to get those scenes where she’s speaking honestly because she’s so closed off all the rest of the time. She’s hard to read. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s really the filmmaker’s way of giving you a window into her mind beyond just the soundless, weird it’s a honestly, it’s a good counterbalance to all the weirdness that you get of her fantasies. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  If it didn’t have this honest heart to heart with God type moments of prayer, you wouldn’t get that. I don’t know. You it would she’d be harder to relate to. 

Craig:  She and she is hard to relate to, but I did find myself feeling sympathetic towards her. Mhmm. She’s so strange. And, you know, her fascination with surgery, continues on at some point. And this is getting towards the end of the movie, and you know it’s not a good sign. You know? She she finds a dead bird, and she stashes it away in her bag and takes it home. And she says to it, don’t make me regret saving your life or something like that. This bird is obviously dead.   You know? I don’t know what she’s thinking, but she she cuts into it and starts pulling things out and then says, oh, guess it was too late. And, you know, she and she’s examining the innards. At one point, she licks the blood off of her fingers. You can tell that she’s coming unhinged. 

Todd:  Yeah. She’s really slipping into her fantasies, essentially. And that comes about not long after the point in which the doctors deliver some news to the Phyllis, the mother, that her sister is going to need a lung transplant ASAP. Right. 

Craig:  They and they’ve known that that was probably going to be a likelihood, but they didn’t expect it so soon. And cystic fibrosis is a terrible disease. It’s really debilitating, and the bond is established between the sisters. And she says Pauline says several times to herself, to her sister, to her parents, I’m gonna do everything in my, you know, everything I can possibly do to make sure that she’s gonna be okay. And she really does seem to be concerned about her sister’s well-being, and she you you know, they have little heart to hearts, and they’re sweet. You know, the sister’s looking at a bridal magazine, and Pauline says, you know, what are you looking at? Oh, just pictures, you know, just in case maybe I live enough to get married someday. And Pauline says, I’m gonna do everything I can to ensure that that happens. And you can tell that she really does desperately want to help in whatever way she can, which, like you said, may be the whole motivation behind her fascination with medicine and surgery anyway.   Mhmm. 

Todd:  And that scene in particular is the one where I could see the ending coming. 

Craig:  I know. I know. 

Todd:  It’s kind 

Craig:  of it’s really quite sad. It is. And, like, you almost I almost wanted to turn it off. Like, nope. Nope. Let’s just pretend that’s not going to happen. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  It it is predictable. What happens is you know, I and I can’t remember. It it is. I think it’s ignited by her. Again, she’s eavesdropping. She overhears her parents talking about how, Grace is going to need the transplant, and she sets a plan into motion. 1st, at another dinner table scene, she tries to ease her parents’ mind. She says, I just wanna say thank you for putting up with me.   I know it’s been weird. She’s gotten expelled from school because the mean girls, have come and vandalized her house, spray painted slut, and Pauline is a cunt spelled with a k then crossed out and corrected with a c, toilet paper. And when that happens, she goes to school in a scene that I found so amusing. She’s, like, marching into school. Her arms are swinging like an ape, and she’s just slow mo. She’s pushing people out of the way, and she finally gets to Natalie, and she just grabs her by the hair and smashes her face in the locker. And so she gets expelled by the principal, principal Campbell, Ray Wise, who’s another excellent, 

Clip:  you know, 

Craig:  genre actor who I really love. And, so she she tells her parents, like, you know, I’m sorry. I I know I messed up, but I’m gonna get my life back on track. I’m gonna, you know, I’m gonna make I’m gonna make things happen. So she kind of eases their mind a little bit. But and in the moment, I didn’t know if she was being sincere or not. Mhmm. But it becomes pretty clear that she’s not.   In in one of her other talks with God, she says, thank you for giving me the strength and the intellect to be able to do great things. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  She says something like, get my parents out of the way or something like that. She said, except but I’ve kind of already gotten that taken care of. Like, she’s eased them into a false sense of security. 

Todd:  It’s forecast pretty well. You you know which direction it’s going when these scenes and it should be a warning sign to all parents who have a this troubled or disturbed kid when suddenly their behavior makes a 180 degree change. It’s not necessarily something you wanna, rejoice. A suspect. Mhmm. And, yeah. So there’s been this girl across the street who’s one of the top girl. Jump rope girl, which is kind of silly.   Honestly, this is one of the sillier points in the movie. And, again, it is a comedy, but at one point earlier in the film, she comes over to raise. She’s raising money for her jump rope club. We’ve got cotillion and jump rope club all in the same movie. It’s kinda weird. But, she decides she wants to make a or she claims she wants to make amends with her too and says, hey. I’ve got I’ve got some old jump ropes out back. 

Craig:  Right. And before that, the mom and the dad were gonna go to dinner. Oh, yeah. That’s right. And they were gonna have a babysitter, which, of course, upset, Pauline because she’s 18. You know? She’s she’s grown. 

Todd:  But they need someone responsible. 

Craig:  Right. They need someone responsible, and the mom makes sure to point that out. The babysitter cancels. So the mom is gonna go out by herself, I guess, and the dad’s supposed to stay home. And, Pauline makes her and her dad some tea, and you see her drugging it. So you know I mean, you know what’s coming. Yeah. So the dad’s drug, then she lures the jump rope girl over, chloroforms her, I guess.   I don’t know where she’s getting this 

Todd:  All this stuff. Is it from her chemistry? Yeah. Who knows? 

Craig:  Who knows? 

Todd:  Who knows? Yeah. Chloroforms her and then goes up and has this kind of heart wrenching scene with her sister where they’re sitting there. And Grace’s coloring. 

Craig:  You know, how did you think Grace is supposed to be, like, 14, maybe? 15? I guess. I mean, Ariel Winter’s older than that. Yeah. And looks older than that, but it she was playing it young. And I I thought maybe she was maybe supposed to be 14 or 15, but because of the way she’s been treated, because she is so fragile, she’s She’s younger. Yeah. 

Todd:  It could be. I I almost imagined her the, you know, later in the middle school maybe. Yeah. So around that age. 

Craig:  But my point with that was, you know, this is the scene that we then cut to is the 2 of them, Pauline and Grace, sitting on the floor in Grace’s room, which is, you know, this pretty little girl’s room, and Grace is coloring. She’s, like, coloring bubble letters of her name. It’s very sweet and innocent. And Pauline is kinda stroking her hair and says 

Clip:  You’re not going to understand what I’m about to do, but someday, you’ll thank me. 

Todd:  Yeah. She chloroforms her, and then you get But 

Craig:  it really I mean, it’s there’s a struggle, and and Grace is is screaming and crying. And it’s so sad because you know that Pauline really, really does wanna help. And in her broken mind, she thinks that she’s doing something to save her sister, and you know it’s not. There’s no possible way 

Todd:  it can work out. 

Craig:  That’s just absolutely it’s 

Todd:  it’s impossible. We’ve seen her surgical skills. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  They’re nothing like, the guy in, deadly friend. Let’s put it that way. 

Clip:  Right. Right. 

Todd:  Yeah. So it becomes this back and forth that actually reminded me a little bit of American beauty. Yes. A little bit of that feeling of, horror and suburbia Yeah. Sort of sad tragedy that goes wrong where she has hauled them both into the garage and laid them both onto tables and is cutting the lungs out of 1 to put into the other, and they’re both clearly dead. Right. At this point, 

Craig:  there’s blood everywhere. I mean, there’s blood their eyes are open. The blood blood’s coming from their mouths. Before before the surgery, we get a really brief scene of Pauline chopping all of her hair off in the mirror. So then you’ve got when we see what we know is coming, and we’d so desperately want it not to be. Again, it’s just framed in this in this central shot with a table with these girls laid out on either side of of Pauline, who’s standing in between them, bald in what looks like like a lab coat or or something. I mean, again, very clinical, very except for all the blood everywhere, almost kind of this sterile scene. And 

Todd:  It it is reminiscent of her flash you know, 

Craig:  of her of her Mhmm. Of her dreams. 

Todd:  Yeah. And her mom, at the meantime, is coming home and discovers that dad’s been drugged and tied up and looks in the room, and it just goes back and forth. And finally, mom shows up in there and just looks at her like, what have you done? And she says, look. You you wouldn’t imagine how you’ve gotta come and check out what I did, mom. It’s it’s, you know, the 1st girl I wasn’t sure, so I decided Todd to do what to do with the Todd. So I practiced my sutures on her first, and she’s just crying and she they embrace. And and then Pauline herself kind of starts crying. Right.   It it seems like she’s almost been in 

Craig:  some sort of trance state through, you know, throughout this whole procedure. And her mother, when she sees what’s I mean, she says, what have you done? And then she kind of lunges at her, and I expected it to be an attack, like violent. And I think that’s kind of how it starts out a little bit. I think she pounds on her just a little bit before grabbing her and embracing her and holding her tight to her and she has done has 

Todd:  hit her. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And so they they embrace, and both of them are sobbing and screaming, and that’s it. Yeah. It’s the end. 

Todd:  Fade to black. Yeah. And, honestly, I thought it was really emotional. I thought it was touching. It would have touched me more. It would have been more emotional for me if the film had been played in a less detached way. Mhmm. I understand what you the director was trying to do.   Again, I like I said, I felt like he was deliberately going for this balance between PT Anderson and Wes Anderson. But for me, it was so detached that I had a hard time getting really emotionally invested in the movie. Again, I I’m comparing it a little bit to American Beauty Mhmm. Because it felt like it had a similar tone even though they’re not the same film. 

Craig:  Oh, right. 

Todd:  And I was so much more invested in the characters in American Beauty, I felt so that when that ending happened, it just ripped me out. Whereas in this case, and and that very similar, honestly, you’ve got instead of the the girl kind of slipping into her fantasy world and having this sort of psychosis, it’s the father Mhmm. You know? And then I don’t know. That would be my criticism of the film is that it was funny and it was staged, but everything was so deliberate and so deliberately funny and so detached that I had a hard time engaging as a viewer. 

Craig:  I can totally understand that, and I think that the style that it was shot in and maybe just you know, maybe there was some lacking character development because, like you said, there’s really no progression of character. It’s just we’re introduced to these characters, and they pretty much stay the same. But I didn’t feel the same way. Now I don’t know I would say that I liked this movie, but it it was kind of gut wrenching for me. I felt for Pauline. I wanted her to get help. I knew she wasn’t going to. You know, I knew what kind of movie this was gonna be.   Yeah. As soon as we got into it, you know, you get 5 minutes in, and you you know what kind of movie this is gonna be. It kinda reminded me of, May. Did you ever see that movie? No. Oh, gosh. I wish I could remember who directed. I won’t be able to. But, again, it’s a girl who’s kind of obsessed with an outcast, and she has no friends, so she starts she builds 1, out of God.   Todd of human 

Todd:  parts. Wow. 

Craig:  And and that it just kinda reminded me of that. I felt for her, and the end was gut wrenching for me because I believed that she was doing what she was doing out of love Yeah. For this 1 person that she had a connection with, the only person that she had a connection with. And Ariel Winter plays Grace so sweet and likable and vulnerable and sad anyway because she’s sick, and you know that she probably doesn’t have, a long life ahead of her. You know, she makes an attempt to be friendly with her sister. She’s you know, when when, jump rope girl says something really snotty to her sister, Grace says, don’t be mean to my sister Yeah. And, like, pulls her inside. And so I knew what was gonna happen, and I just I thought it was tragic and sad, and it and it it depressed me.   Yeah. 

Todd:  This isn’t one you’re gonna walk away from going, yeah. That was quite a movie. This is when you walk away from going, oh, jeez. 

Craig:  The world sucks. Yeah. Well and and even, you know, had the mom just freaked out and and slaps Pauline again. She slapped her earlier in the movie. But the fact that, you know, she sees this just horrible, horrible scene, her daughter just, you know, mutilated by her other daughter, but the her response is to embrace Pauline. 

Todd:  It it’s almost like she’s seeing Pauline for the first time. Right. You know? She’s really now it it took this Right. To get through to her how deeply disturbed she is and how much more in need of of real help 

Craig:  Well, and 

Todd:  and her ability to help her. 

Craig:  Yeah. And they’re beyond the point of no return. I 

Clip:  mean, 

Craig:  this point. Yeah. Everything is destroyed. 

Todd:  You know, I was impressed that this movie got made. It is an odd film, and I think it probably read better, even better. Let me put it that way. I think it read even better on paper probably than, to my opinion, it came out on screen. This is a director’s 1st film. He’s done 2 more since then. This was based on a short, which I assume he used the short to shop it around. 

Craig:  Mhmm. The guidance counselor was Marlee Matlin. Mhmm. Right? Malcolm McDowell was the math teacher. 

Todd:  Oh my god. 

Craig:  So many you know, we talked about John Waters and all of the others. So many good people. So people clearly must have had some faith in it. 

Todd:  As a first film for anybody, it’s pretty impressive. 

Craig:  Yes. 

Todd:  I mean, it’s impressive in every way, and I think that we’re probably gonna see really good things from this director. And maybe, in my opinion, when the director sort of finds his own voice instead of trying to copy or mimic a certain style, but that’s what you have to do. You start out with everything you do, you’re mimicking until you find your own voice. I think this is promising. It shows that this guy’s got got somewhere to go. 

Craig:  See, and that’s funny because I was gonna say almost just the opposite. I was gonna say what I liked about it, and it was it’s a kind of a hard movie to watch. Mhmm. There are there are funny parts. Like, there’s some so many funny lines that I wrote down that we didn’t get Todd, but she at one point in a dinner scene, Pauline just says out of apropos of nothing, I’m gonna get married someday to a black guy. And and her mom, Craig Lawrence, just said, well, then I hope you’re prepared to be cheated on because African Americans are notoriously adulterous. Like, just and then, like, the husband gives her a love to well, they are. I mean, just silly little one liners like that.   So there is some humor in it. It made me laugh. But what I really liked about it was how different it was from other things that I’ve seen. You know? I so appreciate, especially in the horror genre where we have so many remakes and so many sequels and so many copycat movies, which I watch and enjoy Todd, but I just so appreciate when you see something original. You know, this is a I don’t know. I you know, there’s there’s, like, body horror stuff out there and, mutilation type stuff, but this struck me as being a really unique film. 

Todd:  It is for a horror film. You’re absolutely right, but do you think it’s unique for I mean, if you expand that out because you’re right. You’re absolutely right. This is a very original horror film. But, again, like I said, I I I can think of other nonhorror films that I would relate it to. And in some sense, I don’t know. Do you even would you even categorize this as straight horror? 

Craig:  Because of the level of gore. Mhmm. I would. Okay. But it’s it’s really because it is really gory. It is. Really gory. 

Todd:  Well, and for you to be disturbed 

Craig:  by the level of gore in your 

Todd:  head, that is saying something. 

Clip:  Yeah. We we we took 

Craig:  a break after we watched it, and, Todd’s wife was cooking dinner, and, I said, she’s not a a big fan of the genre, especially violent stuff. And I I said, Vic, I don’t think this would be one that you would have liked. And, I don’t remember what she said, but I said it was pretty gory. And she said, as bad as saw. And I had to pause because it’s not the same kind of graphic violence, but it may be as bloody, if not bloodier 

Todd:  Oh, probably bloodier. Well, yes. Especially since, you know, when we rewatched Saw, we’re kind of amazed at how they weren’t quite that bloody. But but maybe it’s the clinicalness of it. You know, it’s one thing to see the gore and stuff when you’re expecting if somebody gets hacked and slashed in the woods and whatnot, but it’s another thing in a situation where people are being operated on Yeah. People are being sliced open in a in in a clean environment atmosphere very deliberately. You can maybe relate to it more. I suppose, but it taps deep down into those those feelings that 

Craig:  you get where, you know, when 

Todd:  you go into a hospital, this is what you don’t want to happen. Right. 

Craig:  Well and it’s it’s very fantastical too. I mean, it’s gory, but it’s it’s like fantasy 

Todd:  blood. 

Craig:  Yeah. You know? There there there wouldn’t be that much blood in a person. And it’s done, you know, with with with some slow mo, with some interesting lighting choices in the fantasies. It has an artistry to it that is not typical of your typical horror movie. Right. It seems like this director had a strong vision, and and I thought he executed it pretty well. I I I was actually pretty impressed. I don’t know who I would recommend this to.   It’s an odd sort of movie. It’s not it’s not a date movie. It’s not 

Todd:  a it’s not you’re trying to end the engagement. I guess. 

Craig:  It’s it’s not really a popcorn flick. 

Todd:  No. It’s I don’t know. It’s a bit of an ordeal. Yeah. But it is buttressed by the humor in it, and there’s and, you know, we probably we’ve been talking so much about the tragedy, and you’ve mentioned, but there is at least as much humor in this film as there is, you know, gross stuff. Particularly in 

Craig:  the first half. It kind of dwindles a little bit in the second half as as things get a little bit more ominous, but there is quite a lot, and we were laughing out loud pretty regularly. 

Todd:  Yeah. I mean, I think bottom line, I wouldn’t watch it again because I wouldn’t wanna put myself through it again. I I got everything I feel like I needed to get out of this movie, and I feel like I got everything that maybe there is to get out of this movie, but I enjoyed watching it. I was glad we watched it. 

Craig:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And, it I don’t know. It was maybe the right movie for me to see tonight when I really wasn’t in the mood for something just super intense Right. Action going all the time, unreal. You know? 

Craig:  Yeah. I again, it’s hard to say. It’s hard to say I liked it because it’s such an odd movie, but I think that I might watch it again. Give it some time. I I I definitely need some time to kind of digest and let my stomach settle a little bit, but, you know, years down the road, if it popped up again, I might give it a 2nd viewing. It’s I I almost feel like it merits it, for me, and and I may be wrong. I might watch it again and say he was trying too hard. Uh-huh.   But for on first viewing, that’s not the impression I got. 

Todd:  Yeah. I think you gotta trust your instincts there. You gotta trust that. Well, I think the movie itself was pretty well received overall. I think on Rotten Tomatoes, it’s fairly high ranked. I think the reviews were quite good, you know, kind of in the b b plus range, from people. So and that surprises me, actually. I would think that a movie like this would divide people a lot more.   Mhmm. So I’m surprised it’s been as well received. What I’m shocked by is that I really hadn’t heard of it. 

Craig:  I know. I I’m surprised Todd. And I had heard of it, but only very little. And especially with the cast, you would’ve thought you would’ve thought based on that alone that it would’ve gotten more attention and publicity, but whatever. It didn’t, and now we get to watch it and talk about it. 

Todd:  Yeah. I bet our I bet our listeners would probably appreciate it. 

Craig:  Well, it I think it’s worth seeking out. I mean, if you’re looking for for something different, it is a different type of movie. You might hate it. That’s the thing. Like, I would be kind of resistant to to recommending it to a a wide audience because I think you like you said, I think it’d be really polarizing. I think some people are gonna appreciate it for what it is, and some people are gonna think it’s gross and stupid. I’m on the appreciative side. 

Todd:  Yeah. I think I am too. Thank you again for listening. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please like our page on Facebook. Share it with a friend. You can find us on Itunes or Stitcher. Please subscribe to us in one of those places, and leave a comment for us. We’d love to hear what you think.   Until next week, this is Todd and Craig with 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week, we dive into a whole new subgenre of film – the Italian giallo pic – with one of Dario Argento’s finest pictures: Deep Red.

Deep Red (1975)

Episode 19, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw.  I’m Todd I’m Greg. And today we decided to go in a bit of a different direction. We felt like Italian tonight, a good, uh, two hours and six minutes of Italian. Yeah, this is a movie called Deep Red. It is a very popular, famous movie, especially when it came out.

It was a huge hit internationally by a fellow named Dario Argento. Who many of our listeners probably, if they haven’t seen deep read, they’ve probably heard of Suspiria, which is the one that, uh, you, I think had, have you seen Suspiria? Yes. It’s. It’s that’s and I’m in that boat. I mean, I know that he’s pretty prolific as a filmmaker, but that’s the one, I don’t know if I’ve seen any others.

That’s the one I’m certain I’ve seen. And now this one. Yeah. And Suspiria and this one all sort of fall from a similar . Right. And giallo is the Italian word for yellow and it’s has its origins actually in a certain kind of literature, kind of pulp novel that was really popular in the sixties, in the seventies.

And  refers to the covers of those novels were typically yellow to set them apart. They would be. Murder type mysteries, pretty gruesome, lots of sex, lots of almost, I guess you can say the Italian version of the Philip Marlowe type stories, but not at all like that. It kind of occupied a similar place on a shelf.

People who just want a cheap entertainment, wanted to read something gruesome with sex and blood and, and murders and mystery in it. And then. Those books basically spawned a genre of film that was started out being based on those books. Some of them literally based on particular geology books and then went off on their own, the films developed a styles of their own.

Right. And, uh, really became one of my guilty pleasures. I really liked giallo pictures. I liked them for so many reasons we’re probably going to get into, but if you were to sit me down on the evening, when it’s really cold outside and I’m really warm inside and I’m just. Feeling like some mindless fun entertainment.

I have two options. I’m either going to put on a Godzilla movie or some kind of large Japanese monster film, or I’m going to watch a giallo pick. I just love the style. I love the time period. I love the feeling that those movies give me. They’re just almost time capsules, really of a particular time and a particular place.

Much in the way that Godzilla films are for me as well. You know, those giant monster films. I like them, not just because of a rubber guy in a big suit and the corniness of that. But I like seeing Japan of the sixties and seventies, it’s really fun for me. And so that is where a, sort of my love for these, this goes.

And then as a filmmaker, I love the style. I love the color. Giallo pics are really known for highly saturated, almost comic book type imagery. Absolutely. And our gentle a major innovator in this sphere. He, along with  and Mario Bava are really. About the three crown princes of the geology genre, and each of them had their own different take on it.

Bhava even before Argento really, uh, with a movie called the girl who knew too much, which is kind of a take obviously a literal takeoff of Alfred. Hitchcock’s the man who knew too much. And that was shot in black and white. And that was arguably one of the first Glo pictures to come out, but much like.

This film and some of the other jello movies, they do have a sword and Hitchcockian sensibility to them. Wouldn’t you say? Definitely. Yeah, that was just a big lesson for me. I didn’t know any of that stuff. I didn’t know the origins or anything. And Argento is really the only name that I’m really familiar with that you mentioned.

And so when I think of these types of films, I think of a very specific type of style. Uh, and I guess, you know, is that strictly Argento or were the others kind of similar and. They did play off of each other a bit. So there was a style that you can kind of identify, like if you go and see the other Glo picks, especially the ones that were done.

Right. I mean, almost in the same year, they were like 60, some of these, you know, produced in Italy. But if you look at some of the better ones, you’ll see, they’re all copying off of each other considerably. So that, that with, with some modifications, obviously each director puts their own spin on it. But yeah, they’re very similar in the fact that.

They tend to be highly stylized. This was a, a really great medium for directors and young directors to experiment with and also heavy on violence, heavy on really gruesome violence. Yeah. I mean, what I’m really familiar with, uh, is more the style and the imagery, which is kind of the draw for me. You know, this isn’t a genre that I’ve really immersed myself in.

Like I said, I’ve only kind of seen Suspiria. So I, I was really familiar with the violence and the Gore, the really saturated colors. I mean, that’s what I think of, you know, that really, really bright red in the blood that doesn’t look real. It looks more like paint or something, but it looks. It’s still gruesome and it comes across as really artistic, which is the other thing that I think about these films, this one, for me being the first time I had seen it, there were times when I found it a little bit hard to follow, but I wasn’t bored because the imagery is so striking.

It almost looks like you’re looking through a book of stills of still shots. Um, and, and I feel like he does. That quite a bit here. I, you know, I don’t know about his Uber of work, but he, he took time with shots. You know, he gave you an opportunity to kind of look around and it, it looked like a photograph and in some places he really made, he took full advantage of the scenery, which throughout was just really cool to look at.

Isn’t it. Right. Um, really interesting use of color. I mean, not so. So it’s, it seemed a lot. I don’t really remember Suspiria that well. Um, I, I, more so remember images, you know, like I remember lots of, of really intense colors, blues and greens and reds and entire scenes being lit in those really strange colors.

I remember specific images. Like I remember. A scene in a swimming pool, I think. And I, I think I remember an old lady sitting in a chair, you know, just like strange, strange images that, uh, I can recall. I don’t even, I kind of remember what happens at the end, but more so I can just picture it in my head.

And I have a feeling that, that, you know how I’m going to remember this too. I’m going to remember it more for the imagery, I think, than for. The story, not that the story was bad, but, uh, the style I think, was more appealing to me. Um, well, do you remember Suspiria also not making a lot of sense necessarily kind of, yeah.

It’s kind of dreamlike and whatnot, which I think works in the horror. You know, we were even talking about this last week with Phantasm, which again, the director Phantasm, Don Cascarelli had mentioned that he drew a lot of inspiration from our gentle ants. Suspiria. And I see that you definitely can. And on that, that aspect where the motivations of the characters are not really realistic, the clues and leads that they follow are pretty out there and don’t make it a lot of sense.

That was one of the things that I was thinking about, um, was, you know, it, now that you’ve told me about the, the type of booklet it comes from, that makes perfect sense to me because we’re not going for necessarily, really. In Trickett Lee woven PLI, you know, it’s this centers around a mystery, it’s a murder mystery.

In fact, I’d really classify it more as like a psychological thriller than a horror film. It’s the excessive gore and violence that people, a lot of times think of it, uh, put it in a slasher type genre, but you’re right. It is, there’s a lot more plotting around and trying to figure out who done it in this.

You know, I call it plot holes, call it convenience, uh, DSX Mokena or whatever you want to call it. But it was just funny to me that the trail never went cold. Like you, you, you think, Oh, darn it. You know, they, they had a clue and you know, they were onto something. It looks like it’s going to go cold. Oh, wait.

Here’s something, nothing else. We discovered some tenuous little thing, right. And there, there happens to be an interesting drawing on the wall or all kinds of little things that realistically, well, just don’t look for realism know. And again, it’s, it’s like watching Phantasm, like we said last week. I don’t think you, you look at this movie to pick apart it from a plausibility angle.

Or try to figure out how this really happens in real life. You just kind of go with the feeling and you go with the mood. And that is you asked that is totally typical of the geology genre. All of these movies are pretty much like this. You’ve got to watch them a lot of times, you’d like to watch a lot of older European films.

Just watch them for the mood don’t drag, pick the part plot part. Cause they’re not as concerned about plot. Right. And, and for me, um, you know, like, like I told you, I’ll, I’ll watch anything in the horror genre that I can get my hands on and, uh, So watching this film and, you know, if we watch more in the future, it’s almost like an exercise in horror history.

Like you kind of, it kind of feels like it’s a required textbook and you’re in your study. I mean, you can’t ignore it. I don’t know if I’m as fond of it as you are, but you can’t ignore it. You know, it’s, it’s kind of an integral. Side aspect of, of the horror genre. And if you want to immerse yourself, um, you really have to kind of give it a go.

And I think it’s worthwhile. I mean, it’s interesting. It’s different fun. Well, if you look at some of the parallels you see, for example, one thing that our gentle was really passionate about. Was to find interesting ways for people to die, because he felt like people can’t really relate to getting shot with a gun.

Your audience just can’t. But, uh, getting stabbed with a knife, getting smashed in the face. Oh my gosh. That leads to some really gruesome imagery. That’s very reminiscent of the creativity that goes into something like a Friday, the 13th or nightmare on Elm street. Oh, sure. Absolutely. You know, interesting kills.

It’s not just, you know, one guy running around with a gun gunning people down or, or even a knife. I mean, there are some stabbings and things in here, but there are some really visceral things I read that I think I must have read the same thing that you do, that he wanted the audience. To have some frame of reference for what these things might actually feel like.

And there was one death in particular in the film that really got me. And I think we’ve talked about this before, but there’s something about mouths, you know, like your, your teeth being pulled or, you know, smashing your teeth into something. And, um, that featured really heavily in one of, uh, one of the murders here.

And I was, I was kind of cringing over in my, myself. So he was successful and that person, mountains, eyes, and ears, they’re the places you don’t want to go. And these guys will go there all the time. I think there was an eye thing in Suspiria. I may be wrong about that, but I will tell you that full cheek and you might have seen zombie it’s called zombie.

Oh, we should. We should watch that. That’s more straight whore and Lucia you’ll full cheat is from the same. Sort of bank of, of directors. And he took sort of a lot of geologists sensibilities into making these more straight horror films, a lot of zombie type pictures, and zombie has a. A lot of these really excruciating type kills, you know, even though the movies are fairly low budget, they’re extremely effective at getting to you maybe more by the content than the special effects.

Maybe, I don’t know, the, the effects are pretty. Pretty cool. I mean, again, we’re looking at a different timeframe. It’s, it’s kind of like looking into a window in the past when effects were just very different than they are today. You don’t have CGI, you know, it’s all practical done with makeup and dummies and fake blood and, and you can tell, but you so appreciate the effort that went into it.

Like I said before, with the blood, it doesn’t necessarily. Look real, but that doesn’t make it any less effective. And you can tell that the flesh that’s being cut into is not actual human flesh, but you’ve also, you also can tell that they’ve gone to every effort they can to make it look as real as possible with these practical effects.

And you just kind of have to appreciate the artistry and effort that goes into that. And it, it does. It still give you that feeling like you relate to it a little bit like, Oh yeah, like me getting cut with that knife. Uh, it’s not like you’re going to see your, somebody gets stabbed in a Hollywood movie, or honestly, even in some of the earlier Friday, the 13th movies, they weren’t close ups of knives.

Hacking away at your skin. Right. And like ripping through the flesh. I mean, it’s not just one jab through the chest or something, it’s, you know, really, you see the flesh pulling and ripping and yeah. Oh man, it’s very fun. And it’s really odd and unusual even for this time, period. I mean, there were people that were experimenting with this, obviously even before this, in the sixties, you had Herschel Gordon Lewis.

The godfather of Gore who started putting Gore in films and he’d go all out, but it looked extremely fake. It looked extremely bad, even still in a more mainstream film. You’re not going to see that level, even at this era until you get into these odd esoteric genre. So for a film like this to do so well and to have.

At least one fairly big name actor in it. You can imagine an audience not knowing what they’re getting into right. Coming in and seeing the way that this film just almost takes delight in leering on those really gruesome moments up close and personal for long periods of time. And you know, it’s coming and you kind of Oh yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. Definitely a physical response. And what was this rated? That’s a good question. Um, You know, I, I think it probably had to take cuts to get anything less than an accident set this time. I think, you know, I, I just briefly glanced at, uh, the page and I MDB and it may have said X, it may have gotten an X rating here in the States.

I don’t know. Well, and I did have to cut it considerably to release it in the States. Uh, some of it was for content. A lot of it was just for time and to make the story move a little faster. And the version that we watched was 128 original cut version. It was kind of interesting. So, so here’s how these Italian movies and pretty much all Italian movies, these periods, except for the major productions work this way, where they would shoot it in English, but they would also shoot it without sound on set.

So the characters are speaking English, but then later they’d go into a sound booth and actually record their sound for the movie. So the lips match. Almost right. You can tell that the lips are forming the same words, but they’re not quite lining up. We’ll see. And that was something that I wondered because you had kind of explained this to me before, because I didn’t know we’re the same because it didn’t sound like it were the same actors doing both dubs where they sometimes, and sometimes not.

Probably not, especially for Mark the main character there. Yeah. And his girlfriend Giana, she, her voice when she was speaking in English seemed pretty high and feminine. And then when she was speaking in Italian, it was still not masculine, but a much lower Tambor. So I wondered, and I wondered, you know, were these actors bilingual or were they just.

Memorizing the English lines, you know, you got it both ways, honestly. And then the spaghetti westerns, you see this a lot at a lot. A lot of those actors, especially the lower tier ones, they didn’t really know English, but they would learn it phonetically and they’d say their English. And it didn’t matter because they’re going to be dubbed over by somebody else.

Right. So we’re watching this film like this, and that’s already a little distracting. And then because of this special cut that we have the missing all bout 20 minutes of missing footage is. Was inserted back in, but they don’t have the original English dubs for those 20 minutes. So every now and then the scene would switch to Italian and we’d get English subtitles, which was nice for us because we could tell which scenes had been reinserted had that had previously been cut.

And it was really good for me cause I hadn’t seen this movie in a while and the movie took on a slightly different tone with the new footage in it. I can, I wondered what you thought about that. Um, ’cause you, you commented on it as we were watching. And I could tell that it seemed like, excuse me, there were some scenes, especially, uh, between, um, the main guy Mark.

And I say his girlfriend, I don’t, they’re not really boyfriend and girlfriend. They just kind of have this flirtation really. And, and there, it seemed like a lot of the stuff between them was this stuff that got. Cut. And a lot of that stuff that was in the original Italian, almost bordered a little bit on rom Cami.

You know, like if, you know, if they recast, so this, you know, like in the nineties or something and American remake, you know, I could very easily see like Julia Roberts and Nick Naulty, you know, like it’s kind of, you know, they’re working on an investigation together, but they’re also. Flirting and joking around and she’s coming onto him and he seems more interested in the investigation, but he’s still giving it back.

There’s some light comedy there. I mean, it seemed like it was intentional and it seemed like a lot of that was what it ended up on the cutting room floor. So, I mean, is that the case? That is, yeah. Well, the first time, you know, the film version of this that I watched had none of that in it. And so there were implications that they were sleeping together.

There were maybe a bit or two where they’d have a little bit of banter back and forth. But these lengthy almost five, six minutes, scenes of them, arm wrestling to see whether men or women are stronger than theirs, you know, and again, that’s, it’s a product of its time as well. There’s a lot of this sort of women’s lib stuff inserted in there.

This arguing about the genders. Uh, which you see a lot of films at this time was not in it at all. So it was a lot more economical in telling that mystery story and not so concerned with the relationship with those two characters. And honestly, I don’t know if that made it better or worse. It’s funny. I know that you were kind of looking forward to yeah.

Todd’s been wanting to watch one of these movies for a long time and things just keep coming up or. Uh, we switched at the last minute for whatever, and we finally got around to it and, and, uh, he told me before that he hadn’t seen this cut and I could tell you’re excited about it. And it’s funny because for Christmas this year, just, you know, few weeks back, I got really super excited because I got the, uh, Blu-ray of legend with Tom cruise and Mia, Sarah and I was.

Silent about it because they have an uncut director’s cut restored version that not only has additional scenes, but it also uses the original score that the studio felt was too traditional and not like hip and cool enough. So I was so excited to see it and then we watched it and I thought. Yeah, I like the original better.

And I think a lot of that probably had to do with just nostalgia because I, you know, I was such a fan of that movie when I was a kid. Um, so to see it altered in any way, I think whether it was for the better or not, I think just to see it altered in that way, it just didn’t sit well with me. So I wondered if you kind of had the same experience.

Well, for me, the movie took on a little bit more of a dreamy quality. It took on a little more of a straight horror, uh, with an investigative element to it without those scenes. Uh, some of the other scenes that were inserted where the scenes of the police station and. Police chief kind of guy who was a little over the top and flamboyant, I noticed almost all of their shots were in Italian because I don’t really remember that much at all.

I actually remember the police being pretty much out of the picture. It seemed like he was forced to deal with this murder that he had happened into on his own. And now to see that the police were a little bit more involved, somewhat, and that he was co investigating this with this girl and they were kind of doing a back and forth on it.

Uh, definitely made it more of a, again, a detective movie. Yeah. The relationship stuff, the extra stuff that was clearly, you know, reinserted. Totally. It was a little bit different, but I thought that it actually kind of was good for the characterization because otherwise I think especially the, a reporter Giana is, uh, an investigative reporter.

I think that her character probably would have felt a little bit flat had it not been for these and really. And again, we’re always going to get into spoilers here, but for whatever reason, I don’t know if this would have been the case with the original edit. She was a big red herring for me. I thought that it was her all the way up until the end or at least that she was in on it.

And I would see that and I was trying to figure out all, you know, it seems like there are some reasons that maybe it couldn’t be her coincidentally, but I was really, really convinced that she had something to do with it. And she didn’t. So, uh, if anything, it was a good example of a misdirection. Well, and I’ll tell you her stabbing, uh, toward the end of the movie bothered me more than it did before, because she was some now, now a much more involved character that I cared about and thought, uh, know, she just, she was just cute and funny.

You know, I liked her. I have to say I liked that aspect of it. And, and I’m the guy who, I don’t watch this to be a horror film. Like I said, I watch it. Like I watch a Godzilla movie. I love the settings. I love the feeling. I love the style of the atmosphere. I like the costumes. I like the way that the European women at the time wear their hair and their makeup and stuff.

And all of that seems so stylized too. Like there are so many cool settings, you know, there is this outside and this is all supposed to be taking place in Rome. But I read that most of the exterior shots were actually filmed somewhere else in another, uh, Italian city. Um, But there’s like a huge, like kind of, I guess, courtyard area or square area outside the building where the main character Mark, excuse me, where he’s the main character and where he lives.

That’s where the first murder takes place. He’s, you know, outside, he’s going home, but he’s outside and he witnesses this murder. Well, anyway, this, this square or whatever, I mean, it’s just huge and it’s, it’s totally devoid of people except for. On one side of it, there’s a bar it’s like the blue bar or something.

And, uh, it is modeled after a really famous painting. Do you know? I mean, I can picture it, no, the painting, but everybody listening would know the painting. It’s sort of a bar on a European street. It’s dark outside, but you’re seeing in through all these windows, the glass windows, and you see the people sitting inside and I feel like didn’t it have like the neon signs or maybe just when, when we were.

I don’t know in the nineties, I remember seeing it everywhere. It’s a really iconic piece. Um, and so that was really cool to look at. There’s one point, he goes to investigate all over the place, but there’s one point where Mark goes, uh, to this big mansion. And I have no idea, you know, I don’t know about architecture, but it’s this.

Know, beautiful big mansion. And we get both the exterior and the interior, which seemed to match up, you know, like they just scouted these really cool places. And like I said before, he really took his time, like showing us around that, that investigation scene arguing too long, arguably too long Jules were so neat.

I did kind of find myself feeling like. I feel like I’m supposed to be catching things like these are little clues or things, and I don’t think they were, I think that he was just trying to set up the atmosphere and show off these really cool sets. And so, like I said before, it’s almost like you’re looking through a book of photography.

Every shot is really beautifully set up. That makes it worthwhile to me visually. It’s it’s beautiful. You know, I think it’s interesting that you say that because I think that he does. Intentionally set this up throughout the film, to where the background you are, maybe sometimes paying more attention to the background than you are the foreground, because you’re waiting for something to happen.

You’re looking for something that might be coming around the corner, a little shadow. Sometimes you’re rewarded with that. Sometimes you’re not, but. I feel like through that framing, he’s always trying to keep you a little on edge. Like maybe something significant as about Sherman because the whole movie really revolves around, around the significance of noticing something and missing a visual and a lot of our Gentiles jellos the bird with the crystal plumage is another perfect example of this, where they follow this formula where the man just kind of an every man it’s, it’s very much a kind of a Hitchcockian formula.

Where the, every man in this case case, Mark stumbles upon a murder and then gets wrapped up in it. And he has information that nobody else has because he was the only eye witness to it. So he’s down with his buddy Mark and his Mark is a drunk. He works at this blue thing and, um, Um, I’m sorry, Carl’s a drunk.

He works down at the blue bar. Mark is a jazz pianist, works at the conservatory and they’re both pianos and somehow they know each other anyway, uh, they hear a scream and Mark says, I don’t know what that could be. And Carl looks up and sees that there’s a woman who has basically been pushed through a pane of glass.

Right, right. It’s it’s Mark Marco. That is the. The main one, the guy that sees the witnesses and right, like you said, he is just kind of this, every man who just kind of accidentally or coincidentally gets tied up in this thing, this, this woman who gets murdered just happened to live directly below him.

She was a psychic, which I thought was going to play more into the plot line, but it really ended up being insignificant. Except for that, that’s kind of what sparked her murder. She was giving like a seminar where she was demonstrating her abilities and. Someone in the, she was saying, I can’t predict the future.

All I can do is kind of read thoughts and read energy and whatnot.

I can feel

in this room,

I feel present

the mind. Sending me thoughts

you have, and you will kill again. And she was going to give that information to a reporter or something. And so that’s why she had to be killed. That’s what sets the whole thing in motion. But, uh, Mark just happens to witness this. And so then he’s the one the police are investigating. And then when the reporter, uh, Giana shows up, she takes a photograph, a close-up photograph of Mark as the eyewitness and publishes it on the phone.

One page of the paper. Thank you, geode. Right? So, so now. In it, you know, like he kind of has to try to investigate this stuff, to try to figure out who the killer is for his own safety, because he knows that he could be at risk, having been the only eyewitness to it. And he’s really light on Jianna for that, to be honest.

And he’s a Londoner he’s in Italy, teaching, working, working. Yeah. So he’s foreign. And when he goes into, see the body, he walks through the hallway. And this is something that there was an extra scene in the movie that really hammered this point home. After the police questioned him for about four hours, he says, he’s back in that courtyard.

And he’s talking with his friend, Carl again, there’s something else. That’s funny. You know, it’s very strange. And I don’t even know if it’s true or not, but, but when I went into her apartment first, I thought I saw it. I thought I started painting. And then a few minutes later it was gone. Now, could that be.

Maybe the painting was made to disappear because it represented something. Sorry, watch something important. And Carlos says, uh, you know, sometimes when you see things, what does he say? Uh, think about it, you know, it’s, it’s halfway between dream and reality, but it’s, it’s, it’s important, right? Your mind marks it because it’s important.

And it’s funny because as he was walking through the hallway, right. You know, he’s seen the woman, uh, get. Smashed through a window and killed, which I guess is, is an Argento thing. Like that’s kind of a trademark of his, um, he goes up and is before he actually comes upon her. Body’s walking through a hall and she’s a psychic, and she’s got all these strange, uh, paintings, which are kind of these grotesque groupings of faces, ghostly faces.

And it’s funny because as he was walking through, one of them caught my eye and I thought that one looks different, but you only get just the tiniest glimpse of it. And then later when he said something was different, I said, I thought I knew it was, you know, something was different. That picture looked different and that ends up being a really, you know, that’s, that’s the pivotal clue in the end, but it takes him going through all of this roundabout investigation to finally get back there and really ultimately.

To just remember, like, you know, like all of the investigation up to that point really is fairly insignificant. If he just would’ve had that memory or hilarious, that’s not true. And you’ll find that same thing, I think with a, of the crystal plumage, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s. It’s funny. It’s almost like he has to clear out his head.

He’s got to go through this process of mental decluttering and push everything aside so we can get a clear vision of it. And of course revisit the same crime scene, which you think he would have done earlier. It was kind of what you’re getting at. Yeah. I mean, it goes through a lot of different stuff. Uh, but he meets Giana and they form a friendship and there’s some really cute scenes.

Right. And they have, you know, a mutual interest, you know, he wants to find out who this killer is. And, and so does she, because, you know, this is her big story and she wants to get the story. And so, you know, I feel like it would be really tedious to go through all the plot points because it’s really just a lot of investigation.

Right. And it’s, and it’s investigation that doesn’t make a lot of sense. Right. Like somebody mentions at one point, Oh, I heard about a haunted house one because the killer plays, uh, like a musical, like a child’s musical song before he’s coming. Right, right, right. Before the murders, he plays this it’s like it almost like music boxy, but it’s um, Clearly, you know, a children’s song.

And at one point, somebody who’s kind of helping them with the investigation says, Oh, this woman wrote this book about hauntings. And, uh, they said that at one point before some murderer, they heard children singing in the house and it’s all those kinds of really impossible connections that just lead him from one location to the next.

So he calls Giana and he says, you know, find out. Uh, who the author of this book is, I want to visit her. Well, then we jump immediately to this woman who we’ve never seen before. It’s her, it’s the author. And she gets dispatched next. So every time they get a new clue and they’re going to a new place, it’s almost like the killer is one step ahead of them, which is why I thought it was Giana because he is, he always tells her first.

Um, and at that point I thought that she was the only one who knew. That he was looking for that woman. Now I, after we watched, I looked up on EMTB and apparently there was a point of view shot where we were supposed to know that the killer overheard that conversation, I missed it. So, um, I was thinking, well, she’s the only one that always knows where he’s going.

So it must be her, but really the, the killer was just keeping very close, keeping a very close eye and was kind of remaining one step ahead of them all along. And there are, you mentioned the point of view shots. There are a lot of those in this film. And I li I love that about this, and that is again, part of this style.

I think that it serves a couple purposes. It really keeps you on edge because there are moments where you’re not sure if you’re just seeing a, sort of a voyeuristic camera angle, or if you’re seeing through the eyes of somebody else. It’s both at different times. And so you’re not really sure. I mean, you kind of get before the murders, you almost always get one of those POV shots, but just because you’re getting one doesn’t necessarily mean it’s leading you where yeah.

You think it’s going to exactly. And I think it also makes the kills a little more disturbing because it really puts you behind. Oh, in almost every kill in this movie, you’re through the eyes of the killer at some point, uh, maybe approaching them maybe as you, as the knife is being raised or something, you’re seeing these hands out in front of you almost like you’re playing a third person shooter or a first person shooter, you know, uh, and it’s, it’s a little unsettling to be in that position.

I think psychologically it is, but, you know, I think it’s also a technical thing, you know, they. They can’t show us who the killer is. So we’ve got to S you know, either they’re going to have to do that. Some interesting things with lighting or, or, you know, keep it really in shadow or only show really specific angles or go the POV route, where we are seeing from their perspective.

And so all we really ever see of the, of the killer are these gloved hands. Which, by the way, we’re Dario, Argento is hands and all those shots. And then every once in a while, we’ll see the killer from the back. Uh, and the killer wears black or Brown, like rain, slicker and boots. And that’s it very nondescript.

So, uh, you know, there’s really no knowing based on what we see who it is. And frankly, I was very shocked by the ending. I didn’t see it coming. However, I didn’t think. Oh, that’s so stupid. You know? Cause I kept, as I kept thinking, it’s gotta be somebody we know it’s gotta be somebody in the film that we know and it kept people just kept kind of getting clicked off the list.

Oh, I guess it can’t be him. I guess it can’t be her who is left and, and by the end I was starting to think, Oh, it’s just going to be somebody random killer. And we’re going to just get some random explanation for why all this was going on. And. To a certain degree. It is a little bit, but there’s also enough connection that I thought.

Okay, well maybe had I been paying a little bit closer attention. I maybe could have had a little bit more hint at this, but I wasn’t disappointed. I was surprised. Yeah, you don’t feel. Cheated at the end that I’ll come on, please. Even though the, the process leading up to it is rather convoluted and ridiculous, uh, at the end of the day that the final explanation of satisfying, right?

And, and there’s, you know, that’s one of the interesting things about this too, because he moves around the main guy Mark moves around so much talking to so many different people. There are kind of, there is kind of a pool of interesting characters to choose from. I mean, you’ve got, uh, Carlo who’s the drunk friend, but you think he can’t be the killer because he basically witnesses it.

I mean, he, he just walks away from, uh, Mark seconds before he sees that first murder. Um, then you’ve got, uh, uh, we find out, um, Mark discovers that Carlo has a transgender lover, which would have probably been a little bit scandalous, uh, at the time. So you think maybe that. You could try something to do with it, although it’s surprisingly downplayed in the movie.

Yeah. I was kind of surprised aggressive, and then there’s a bit of a red herring too, because. There a few of these odd little cutaway scenes where it’s like you’re in the killer’s apartment or you’re on his desk or something. And you’re seeing that person put on the gloves. You’re seeing them play with some toys, little children’s toys.

It’s it’s odd. And there’s one moment where the cure puts on some mascara. Oh yeah. I let her a couple of times heavy black eyeliner. Which again, there’s a scene towards the end, after Mark investigates this, um, this big mansion and he finds some clues there there’s like some drawings on the wall or whatnot, and then he ends up finding a corpse.

Um, well, as soon as he makes those discoveries, he’s hit over the head. And when he wakes up, he’s laying in. Juliana’s lap and she’s got heavy mascara on. And I thought I knew it. I knew it. I had it figured out for so long. I was, you know, kind of patting myself on the back and ready to tell you at the end, I knew that all along and she is, I think pretty odd in that scene too.

It’s, uh, it, you know, it’s kind of weird, but then they continue investigating and pretty shortly after that, uh, she gets. Stab still. I mean, her attack, her assault occurs completely off screen, which is the only one, right. That takes place off screen. And the brutality is, is far less in her case. She’s just kind of stabbed maybe a few inches in the abdomen where these other people have been beaten, you know, up against wall slashed with meat, cleavers, um, all kinds of really gruesome stuff.

So I was still thinking, you know, maybe she’s just playing it up. Maybe it’s that. Oh, I can’t be the killer. Cause I got. Stab C um, but really scream. Right, right. Um, but no, it’s not, I don’t even know, you know, without making it perfectly obvious. I don’t even know how to, to introduce, uh, uh, who the killer is.

And maybe at this point, there’s no sense in trying to hide it. But, um, it’s interesting because there’s a, there’s a, there’s that red herring reveal where I guess we go in, well, we go through this process and it’s clear to us and this, and one thing we neglected to mention was during the beginning of the credits, There’s a scene that’s inserted in the middle of the credits, like the credit stop, this scene happens and then the credits continue and then the movie starts, right.

You just see it’s almost psycho ask, you know, just this a silhouette, you know, shadow of a stabbing. And then, um, It’s Christmas time. There’s music playing the children’s music, playing in the back, and then you see what appear to be a child’s feet walk into frame, but that’s all you see. And then that’s it.

I mean, I it’s obviously significant, but you don’t know. And then the clues that start to add up, you know, the. Somebody mentioned the haunted house. So he goes and looks a library for this house. And then they, they find a book that has the house in it. And then he goes around asking all of them. He’s like a bargainer right in front of the house, which is smart, you know, days before Google, this is what you had to do, you know, they’re, they’re in, uh, Italy and, you know, there’s these like tropical plants.

And so that he uses that to track that down then in the house, he investigates the house. He. He notices that the, the, the plaster is cracking in a place and he very meticulously like gets rid of the plaster and restores this. What looks like a children’s drawing underneath. And the drawing is of a child standing in front of a Christmas tree.

And then what appears to be a larger figure, looks like a mean figure, um, who has been, you know, stabbed, there’s a big gash and there’s blood everywhere. And then as he walks out more, he doesn’t see this, but more plaster falls out and we see that there’s actually somebody else in the picture. Now that’s an interesting moment.

Isn’t it? Did you think for a brief moment that this house was supposed to be haunted or, or I really didn’t. I mean, I don’t think that it would have been out of the realm of possibilities, especially since he does end up finding. Uh, corpse there, uh, at some point, but I felt like the movie didn’t really go there.

It felt like the lore of the house being haunted was more just atmospheric. It was a bit out of place, uh, for just that big chunk of plaster to fall. It wasn’t like it was tenuously teetering there on the edge when he left, slam the door or something. And that made it. Fall off, but again, then I’m thinking, Oh, well, there are, you know, there’s another figure.

There’s gotta be somebody else involved. It’s not the kid or whatever. And then the kid’s holding the knife in this photo, in this, in this drawing. And so you’re thinking the kid just stabbed this person, right. It’s not until that piece of plaster comes off, that you realize that anybody else present who was not stabbed, um, And then what does that lead to?

That leads them. Okay. That leads them to the landlords, the caretaker, the caretaker of this house, his daughter, who I don’t know what’s going on with is creepy too. And that was another weird sort of somewhat, I don’t know, supernatural. He keeps saying that she’s like a witch. What is it? You’re a little, which I told you not to do that again.

I want you to go, come on. And she likes to hurt animals and there’s a really disgusting part where she leaves up. A little lizard with a pin through it, which is a bit of animal cruelty. Right. It’s a little uncomfortable. In fact, I think they may have cut that. I think I may have read that they cut that in somewhere.

Yeah. There were a couple, yeah. That, and there’s a little bit of a shot of a dog fight for some reason that we saw. Right. Which I didn’t really understand what the purpose of it was, but it was really gruesome. I mean, it was clearly a real dog fight, um, kind of scary. And again, it was just a clip, but anyway, so there’s this little girl who’s, it’s been established that she’s weird.

Anyway, then she has. That same picture. Like she’s copied that picture from the wall onto a piece of paper and hung it up in her room. It’s just cause she’s weird. Anyway, probably hung up in her room, above her bed with everything else. And so logically one would think, Oh, she’s the caretaker’s daughter she’s snuck in there and seen it.

But no, she hasn’t. She couldn’t have, because it was plastered over before he revealed it. Unless it was, she went back within the day or two. That’s true. But no one day at her school, she had gotten in trouble and her punishment had been that she had had to clean up the archives and she had been going through old drawings of old students and she had seen it and she had copied it down, which makes a lot of sense that she would choose that one to copy.

And then it also makes a lot of sense that they go to this big fancy school that has this huge archive room. Wait a minute. They break into the school. They break in every, forget about, you know, going in the morning and telling the folks a, do you mind if we have a look at the archives, it’s for an investigation, now they break the window to get into the school.

Yeah. And they go in and they start looking around and they find the archives and it takes all about five minutes and all of these archives. Because they’re divided by year and subject area drawings are right over it. All of all the drawings. So we save them, the children who have gone to school, they would have no idea what subject matter or year they were looking for.

But apparently that’s helpful. At least it’s organized. Um, and lo and behold, she Giana hears a noise. Um, and goes off again, I’m thinking, Oh, she’s going to set something up. She’s conspiring with somebody, but Mark finds the drawing and the name is on it. So now he knows who it is. And, uh, and it’s Carlo, it’s his, uh, buddy, his drunk buddy.

Uh, who, yeah. Who, yeah, Joe’s up with the gun and pointed at him. Well, so now what are you going to do? Can you.

I’m sorry. Cause I like you,

but I have to give you,

I told you to stay out of it. It all sorta makes perfect sense. And so if you’re thinking about it, you, and you remember that scene from earlier, you could piece in your head that Carlos crazy killer. When he was a kid, he must’ve killed his father or something and drew a picture about it and blah, blah, blah.

And for some reason he murdered this woman and his murdering others. Right. Even, even at that point, You everyone, everybody like the guy Mark seemed to be, Oh gosh, I can’t believe it was my friend Carlo. And then like, he talks to the police. Well, first of all, Carlo tries to the police arrive because I guess Gianna had called them, I guess, right before, right before she had gotten stabbed, they arrived in the Nick of time and, and, uh, Carlos takes off running and then there’s a horribly gruesome.

Scene of his death. I mean, the inept police officers fire off like six or eight shots of him and totally missed just hitting everywhere around him. But then he steps out into the street, gets hit by a garbage truck. And not only does he get hit by it, but there’s like a hook on the outside of it that he gets hooked on.

And then it drags him around the city for a good minute or two. Well, they swing around the corner, wax them on the curb and then you hear a car rush. And at this moment, Craig goes. Oh, no, this is going to happen. And sure enough, a car tears over the front and runs right over his head. And it’s like a, I dunno.

Do you remember the toxic Avenger? Did you ever see that? Obviously not at the same level as this movie, but very similar in that you get that up close and personal view of the head getting crushed by the, uh, the wheel. Now that is what makes this a horror movie that’s like brings it into this other realm.

Fair enough. So anyway, apparently mystery salt, and, uh, Mark is just going to go home and he’s walking along and you can just see all of a sudden on his face, wait a second realization. And I feel like it’s even in voiceover that he says, yeah, no, it’s impossible. He was with me when hookah was killed,

couldn’t have been here. You’d like to do with it. Why. So he decides to go back to the original crime. Maybe I should go back to the original crime scene after all. And see if that thing that I thought was important for me to remember is still there. He goes back, he walks down the hall. He realizes that the reason that the painting that had caught his eye looked different and he had mistakenly thought that it had been removed.

It wasn’t that it had been removed. It was just that it looked different. And it was because in one kind of little offshoot hallway, the direction that he was walking down the hallway, Facing him in that offshoot hallway was a mirror that was reflecting a painting opposite of it. So it looked very much like the other paintings, because it was just a reflection of them, you know, uh, in a frame much like, uh, the others, but what he realizes.

Is that there was an actual person standing there and I knew it. I had seen it. I knew there was somebody there. Now we have gone all this way without even mentioning the name of who the killer is, which I feel like is kind of a cheat that I didn’t know how to introduce it without making it totally obvious.

So why don’t you explain? Well, um, Carlo has a mother that we only get to see because. Mark is looking for Carlo to ask him some questions and he goes to find him, and she’s the one who points him in the right direction. She is sort of a crackpot lady, but funny, funny in a humorous she’s comes across as comic.

Right? Right. Like she’s, she’s the crazy old lady, you know, she’s kind of. Forgetful or has, you know, certain notions in her mind, but we laugh at it because you know, of course, Mark is, is annoyed and is trying to be efficient and get things done. And this, yeah, this crazy lady is kind of like trying to flirt with them and engage with them.

And I used to be a movie star and look at me on the walls. And I mean, she, she seems a little bit off her rocker, but. In a funny way. Yeah. And, uh, and he keeps saying, Oh, I’m a pianist. And she says, Oh, are you the engineer? He was like, no, I’m the PS. Oh, you also play piano. That’s great. She keeps thinking of him as the engineer.

And it’s funny yet it turns out that, uh, she, uh, was the killer and that scene that we had seen earlier of Christmas, and that was referenced in the wall with all these drunk child drawings was actually. Her stabbing her husband in the back because she was clearly a little nuts and he wanted to take her to the hospital, psychiatric hospital probably.

And she didn’t want to go. So Christmas time as he is approaching his son, Carlo, she comes up behind stabs him in the back and then he pulls the knife out of the back and just sort of tosses it in front of him and Carlos picks it up and holds it up. And so that is really the image that was traced was Carla holding the knife.

Uh, in shock his dad dead. And then his mother is to the other side. Um, and all of that happens, you know, it’s, it’s that reveal moment. It’s like, okay, we’ve led you up. We’ve shown you her face. You know, you see her face again in the mirror. Um, as he’s walking through, we see who it is. And then they’re like, okay, here’s the scene that we’re going to explain it.

Right. And that’s kind of cheap. I mean, as far as storytelling is concerned, but it didn’t bother me because I was so surprised and because I thought I never would have thought of her. I mean, she, she kind of seemed like an extraneous character, but then when it was revealed, I thought. That’s plausible.

We’ve known. She was crazy from the get out. Exactly has been depressed and drink, you know, like drinking himself to death. Almost apparently what has happened is that he’s been trying to watch out for his mother, cover her tracks, you know, keep her reined in or whatever. So it makes sense that he was having a really.

Hard time with that. And you know what we’ve seen of her, she was unhinged. She didn’t necessarily seem violent, but it doesn’t seem like a stretch of the imagination that she could be. And I didn’t feel cheated. In fact, it felt like a really unexpected and kind of fun twist at the end. I agree with you completely.

I really do. Uh, there’s a great little. A scene there where they have a bit of a showdown and they go out into the hallway and her necklace gets caught in the elevator and he takes advantage of that opportunity to hit the elevator, to go down. And it’s one of those old fashioned great elevators. So it’s easy to do.

And it just pulls her head clean off. Right, right. Well, I have to say I was actually a little bit disappointed. I wanted to see a little bit more of her being crazy, running around with the meat Cleaver. It happens really fast. She does get one hack at him with a meat Cleaver and he goes down to the ground and it’s kind of when she’s coming at him again, that her necklace gets trapped in the, like the Gates of those old fashion elevators.

Right. That must be a super expensive necklace because I’ve never seen a necklace not break right at the slightest opportunity. Right. But that’s it, you know, she gets to capita. We don’t even really see that. I mean, we see the chain cutting into her neck, which is a, an effective, gross, gross effect. But then we just kind of get the point of view of seeing the chain get pulled and it finally gets pulled all the way through.

Of course it’s covered in blood. And then the last shot, which goes into the credits. Is Mark, I guess, kind of his face kind of hovering over the puddle of blood and just reflected in this bright puddle of blood and then the credits roll. And yeah, you know, this movie has a lot of great imagery. It’s obviously done with lots of care.

It’s very stylized. It could come off as an exploitation film where it not for it being so artistic and so well done because it is so gruesome and brutal. And it just seems to revel in that. But there’s some real style there. The notion that the killer wears the black gloves and the raincoats, you’re going to find that every movie that you see, but in this film in particular, they had had some really fun moments.

I really like. The every time that it seems like Mark gets on the phone, he’s in an extremely noisy location to the point where you could see the visible frustration on his face. And there’s a really cute moment where he is calling her from a cafe and. You know the scene when somebody is calling a news reporter and on the other end of the line, the news reporters in this super busy office with typewriters going, and it’s just super loud, except this time on the other end, he’s also in this super busy, loud.

You want to do that for putting the bloody machine next to you? What’s the matter? Nothing, nothing. When you try and find out for me, the name is Bree. Jackie.

She’s probably got some other information to call you back on call. I will call you back. I can’t hear.

And it’s an interesting juxtaposition of the typewriters and everything going. With the pinball machine right next to him whacking. And this guy behind him was trying to pour cappuccino and, and, you know, he’s getting stuff blasted in his face. I thought there was just some really neat touches, some comedy in there that, uh, right.

I thought so too. And that’s not again, I don’t remember it really well, but it seemed like Suspiria was darker and a little bit more serious. This had a little bit more of a light hearted nature to it. And of course, Suspiria was kind of dealing also a little bit in the supernatural and I feel like it was even more.

Stylized than this. You didn’t have as much saturation of color here as it was utilized in Suspiria. Um, it was, it was still there, but it was more subtle. It would be color more in the background as opposed to the entire scene being lit in that one strong color, but yeah, little touches of humor. Uh, really interesting style choices.

You know, it’s interesting too, this movie really plays on the idea of vision. It plays on the mirror thing and the painting thing obviously ends up being a big deal at the end. But if you go back now having watched it through knowing how the ending was going to go and looking for these little touches in a cinematography way, he’s really done some interesting things, his whole choice of having the blue bar there, which is so iconic of a.

Painting a very famous painting that you don’t miss. It is an interesting backdrop to have when the clue to the entire thing lies in a painting. Well, and the people like. Even, you know, it it’s live action, but even in silhouette it looks like a painting. Oh, they’re totally staged like the paint. And even when you, when you’re inside, there’s one scene where you’re inside and, uh, Mark and Carlo are dueting on, on the piano.

Everybody’s just standing or sitting around very still, like there’s a woman standing, you know, very. Pick a risk, uh, you know, next to the piano. And then there’s a guys at the counter who might move to take a drag of their cigarette, but that’s kind of it, um, really cool, cool stuff. Interesting touch. When he visits the mother for the first time, the crazy woman, and we’re laughing at them, but they’re having their conversation.

And between them is a mirror. On the wall. And it’s just a nice little touch there that for forecasts that’s when you see, and of course the child’s drawings playing into it as well. There are paintings on walls. And when he goes down the hallway in the empty house to break down that what’s, you know, the door to the old room has been plastered over there.

He’s going down a hallway. That’s very reminiscent of that original hallway that it was in the murdered woman’s room, except all of the paintings on the wall are missing to the point where there’s like a little. Pattern around them where they’ve been removed from the wall and all the walls. Interesting.

I hadn’t noticed that makes perfect sense. It’s a big clue and I’ll bet there’s. I bet if I knew more about art and things, I’ll bet there are a lot of different touches like that in this film, even in the very beginning when the psychic and the very first scene is going crazy because she thinks there’s a murderer in the, a person with dark thoughts in the theater, we get our first POV shot of the, who we later learn as the killer.

Standing up and sidling his way toward the bathroom. And he goes into the bathroom, turns on the water and the camera slowly pans up and there’s a mirror, but the mirror is dirty and it’s broken and stuffs. You can’t see who it is. Just a lot of playing with that, that, uh, that shows some real, uh, it makes.

A second watch of this film. Really fun. Yeah. I hadn’t, no, I mean, I kind of noticed, you know, the obscurity of the mirror, I just kind of felt like that was just to hide the identity, but now the connection makes perfect sense. I think you’re right. I think on pond, uh, another viewing, we probably pick up on a lot more.

Yeah. Speaking of mirrors, I have a question for you because I couldn’t figure this part out of the author of that book that they go to see when she gets killed. The killer turns on the bath water and turns on the basically burns her alive, essentially in the bath water. And Fogg’s up her whole wall in there as a mirror.

And she falls down close to it, reaches over and starts to write something in the fog. And then it’s, it’s almost as horribly horrible moment when the window is open and the fog starts to go away. And you wonder if anyone’s ever going to see what she wrote and then the other guy, uh, who was the one of the psychics, right?

I think his name was Jordani. Yeah, that’s right. Kind of going off on his own little mini investigation, following his own little leads in here, he eventually gets killed, but he visits that house. He’s the one to check out the body or where the body was and he gets the idea and he Fogg’s up the room and sees asked, written on.

I have no idea. I couldn’t make it out. And I, I don’t know what it was. It looked like, I think it was Italian for is the killer is because the subtitle there said that the killer is now. I’m not sure if we’re supposed to believe that she finished writing, but it was out of the frame and we didn’t, we didn’t get to see it.

He did. Right. Because when he leaves the room, he. He seems like he’s put it all together. Right. Am I wrong? It did kind of seemed like that, but I don’t know. It’s odd because he didn’t even know those people or neither did the author. So how would they know? I mean maybe if they, if she was going to say the killer as a woman or something like that, I don’t know, but I don’t know.

I couldn’t figure it out. That would be the only reason he would die. Right. Is if he, the killer believed that he learned something at that scene and just her writing is on the wall and nothing else, uh, wouldn’t have gotten him anywhere. Right. Maybe, you know, uh, Carla was just trying to tie up loose ends.

I don’t know. Yeah. But no, sorry. I don’t know. I can’t clarify for you. His death was pretty creepy. It was a little, um, saw Asquith with this Heath. Oh. And that doll. Oh, right. I forgot about that. Creepy doll. Just running right towards him. Wow. Yeah. That was weird. You weren’t expecting, I mean, you did have the motif with the killer playing with toys and things, but we had never seen them like employed in the movie, the level of sophistication that they had sort of planted this large wind up doll.

There was a creepy prop. Oh my gosh. Yes. You know, the guy who was Mark in this movie is a David helmets. David Hemmings. Did, did he look familiar to you a little bit, but it seemed like whatever I knew him from, he was probably older. I don’t know. What have, have you ever seen peeping Tom? I don’t know, it’s a close it’s like the British hitch.

It, people call it the British psycho. Cause it came out around that same time. It was a serial killer movie. When you know, nobody else had ever really made a serial killer movie except Hitchcock. Yeah. I’ve read about it. I haven’t seen it. Yeah. He’s Thomas in that movie. That’s that’s another really good creepy atmospheric, but British film.

He was all over British TV and film. He did look somewhat familiar, but I don’t know. I don’t know, great acting I thought from him, especially, uh, it’s hard to tell with everybody else because you’re not sure what’s mugging and what is just getting kind of flubbed by the, the switching back and forth, right?

Yeah. The dubbing and stuff. And apparently the woman who played, uh, the killer was indeed a famous actress, but we’re talking like back from the twenties and thirties. And the, the, it seems that the photographs that she referred to on the walls were authentic photographs of her. And, uh, if that’s the case, she was very beautiful woman in her youth, still striking in a very interesting look, you know, this, we saw that we think this was like her second to last.

Yeah. Um, even though she died like in the nineties, right, right. She’s still, I mean, she was, she had, she had a great face for a character and she played the character really well. I liked her performance in hindsight is probably my thing. Favorite? Uh, just because she was playing on hinged all along, but never really casting any, she seemed to noxious.

She didn’t seem like she posts any kind of threatened. I never would’ve guessed. It was her. Um, so I think there must’ve been some subtlety there, whether it be in the script or her performance or both, but I really enjoyed her performance. Good. So your first giallo pick outside of Suspiria, but more hardcore giallo do you think you’ll see another one.

I’m sure I will. I’m sure. You’ll make me

know. I wouldn’t say that it’s my favorite genre, but there’s so much that I appreciate about it. And so much that I respect about the artistry that goes into it. It may not, you know, just like I’m not big into rap music, but I can appreciate, you know, those who are really skilled at it and, and, and their artistry.

So yes, I will watch them again. And I’ll go in with an open mind because, uh, Yeah, I liked this movie. It’s certainly not one that I would have picked to watch on my own, but I’m glad that you picked it. I’m glad we did it. Know if you’re ever, if you ever have an evening where, uh, you do feel like tackling this again and now that you kind of know what to expect, because they are very similar check out the bird with the crystal plumage also by, uh, Dario Argento.

And it is. Also, I think fantastic. Maybe that one and deep red, I had a very hard time choosing which one would watch tonight. We’ll do. We’ll do. All right. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for joining us for this episode. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. Find us on iTunes and on Stitcher and like us on Facebook.

So don’t hesitate to give us a comment. If you like what you’re hearing or you want us to contribute a little bit more to the conversation or give us a suggestion? Yeah, sure. Why not move you to a wall? We don’t plan these things out very hard to say, what are we watching next week, Craig? I have no idea.

Neither do I until then. I’m Todd and Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

In honor of the recent passing of Angus Scrimm, we bring you a film that’s near and dear to our hearts: Phantasm.

This unlikely cult hit kicked off a string of sequels – the latest of which should be released later this year. And none of them would have been hits if it weren’t for the iconic character of The Tall Man. We honor Angus Scrimm’s memory with a fresh, fair look at this classic from 1979.

Phantasm (1974)

Episode 18, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Welcome to another edition of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. I’m Craig. And today, we are mourning the death of Angus Scrimm, a horror icon who died at the tender age of 89. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s it’s sad. I, I read about his passing, earlier on this week, and, of course, I immediately texted Todd because he would’ve been the only one of my friends who would’ve really known who I was talking about or cared. 

Todd:  There’s so Few people who could appreciate this. 

Craig:  Right. I I I just said, oh, no. Angus Scrimm died, and, he knew exactly what I was talking about as I knew he would. And We decided that we would, do a little tribute, a little homage, and, watch Phantasm this week. That is correct. 

Todd:  You know, Angus Scrimm came from not Far from us in Kansas City, Kansas. We’re in Missouri, but not far from Kansas City. His birth name was Lawrence Rory Guy. 

Craig:  Very interesting. I did not know that at all. 

Todd:  Which is almost an odd enough, you know, name. He went by Rory Guy, I think, most of the time. Uh-huh. And then he took the name Angus Graham is sort of a stage name. 

Craig:  Do you have any idea where that came from? 

Todd:  No. I don’t. That’s a good question. But, you know, if he’s from Kansas, the word Angus, you know True. True. It it all it just sounds like a creepy name, though, and and it looks like he looks like an Angus. He does. He’s known for being really tall.   He’s actually 6 foot 4, which is pretty tall. Well, only about an inch taller than me. Not as tall as he looks in the movies, but, of course, they built that up for Right. 

Craig:  Right. I mean, this is He’s done other work, but this is kind of what he’s iconic for. And his character is just known as the tall man, and he’s just kind of this scary imposing figure. Like you said, he was, what, 6 3, 6 4? 64. But in the film, they put him in 3 inch platform shoes. They put him in, ill fitting suits that were too small for him to make him appear larger than life. And in at least 1 scene where he’s standing next another character. I know they had him standing on an apple crate to make him look more imposing.   So there’s a little bit of movie magic going on there, but He was a tall guy, and he definitely had a very, unique and and spooky look about him. 

Todd:  Yeah. And it’s, it’s interesting because It borders the line between really creep genuinely creepy and kind of mugging. Yeah. A little bit. 

Craig:  A little bit. 

Todd:  It’s it’s If he had been playing more serious character, let’s put it that way, he’s iconic as his character. The way that he played him is a sort of mugging, what really turns out to be, spoiler alert, a an alien. Yeah. Yeah. So you can get away with a lot when you’re an alien in a movie, you know, and Sure. Your facial expressions can be a little over the top, and he’s kinda known for that. I know that there’s a friend of mine and I who you know, we watch Fantasm a long time ago when we were in high school, and, We it’s kind of one of our inside jokes to every now and then turn to each other and go, boy. Yep.   So I was waiting for that. I I haven’t seen this movie in a long time. 

Craig:  Me either. Like, 15 years. This is and I I’ve only seen it that one time. This is one of those movies though that I remember from a kid. Now I’ve about this probably a a bunch of times, on the podcast already, but there’s just something about when we were kids going to the video store that, kids Today, we’ll never know. Oh, 

Todd:  that’s so sad. 

Craig:  And, you know, and and when I was a kid, I just remember my favorite, of course, place to walk around was the horror section. And just the video covers were always so eye catching, and this one is just implanted concrete in my mind. I mean, I I remember it Vividly, with, Angus Skrim on on the cover, and the the silver spheres that are also iconic and That 

Todd:  kind of white and deeper saturated red Yeah. Sort of a white and red look. And Yeah. 

Craig:  And, I mean, it was artistically done. And I You know, kids today can scroll through Netflix and see, you know, some artwork for the films, but it’s just not the same. It seems like a lot of Carrie used to go into that. And I imagine that was probably because they were trying to grab your eye, so you’d you pick it up off the shelf and take it home. I don’t know. This came out in 79, which was the year I was born. So I guess maybe I was just too young to see it at the time. My folks are pretty liberal in let me watch letting me watch what I wanna watch.   But as eye catching as that was, I didn’t see it until I was in college. Oh, yeah? Yeah. I I, Moved, to a different city to do my internship, right out of college, and, I didn’t have cable. I was living alone. It’s the first time I’d ever lived alone. So my mom bought me a $150 gift card to movie gallery. And every night, I would go to movie gallery and pick out a movie, usually a horror film. Uh-huh.   And it was then that I first saw this movie, and I watched them all. Like, just Oh, did you? Yeah. All all 4 of them, right in a row. And I I I really liked him. I loved him. So I was, like, it’s it’s a sad occasion to to return to it now, but I was excited to, to watch again. 

Todd:  That’s funny. You know? Well, I I was born in 78, so only a year older than you. And my friends and I in high Would do stupid movie night where we would get together and we would usually go to the horror section because we were all kind of into But it’s funny that you mentioned it. The horror section in the video store was by far the most interesting Oh, yeah. And I think you hit the nail on the head. Those covers really sold the movie, and they had to sell the movie because some of the stuff in there was Total and utter garbage, but should be so entranced by the covers. Absolutely. And phantasm being one of those that we knew was an iconic horror film.   We obviously we saw it. We saw the second one. I haven’t seen anything since the second one, but I know that my friend that I referred to earlier, Dakota, my Buddy and I, we definitely saw Phantasm 1 and 2 together. And it was really hard for me to be, Objective watching this film just because I have so many good memories wrapped up in it. You know? It’s one of those movies that when I first saw it, I’d really never seen anything like it. Yeah. It’s not like other movies. It it doesn’t make sense.   No. But it but it also it’s Fine that it doesn’t make sense. It’s got this dreamlike surreal quality that shouldn’t work, but it does. 

Craig:  Yeah. Oh, gosh. That’s so funny. You kinda took words right out of my mouth. There are so many things about this movie that shouldn’t work, and for some reason, they do. I mean, it’s it’s an entertaining film throughout. You know, the acting is a little subpar maybe. 

Todd:  Yeah. Just be to say it. You’re being too kind. 

Craig:  I well, and that’s the thing. Like, it was for me to be objective too because I I have such fond memories of it, and I I just kinda wouldn’t let myself be too critical in watching it. You know? There’s there’s some The cinematography, you know, it shows its age. I mean, it’s definitely entrenched in in the seventies. It’s a little grainy. A little dark in places. 

Todd:  Which is good, Actually, I’m in the darkness, but, yeah, it’s 

Craig:  All of those things, and I’m sure we’ll hit on more of them. I just didn’t care. Like, I I was just you know, I I’m I was in it for the ride, and, it’s it’s a good ride. And and like you said, I think that what I appreciate most about this movie and the whole franchise is that, it’s completely unique and original. There’s no other movie like it. It’s not really borrowing or stealing from anything, and nothing has really, I I’m sure people have been influenced, but you’ve never seen kind of a copycat movie. It’s it’s bizarre. It’s unique.   And, for that, I think it it deserves some credit. 

Todd:  Yeah. A lot of creativity born probably out of the production process. I was doing some reading up on this. Don Coscarelli, the director, who since Gone on to do the other fantastic movies as well as a few other films that some of them have been pretty critically acclaimed, but he’s never really broken through as a main screen director. He had done a couple movies before this. None of them really did very well. In fact, the one before this, I think, was called, Jim, the world’s greatest. Stop.   I have no idea what it’s about. I don’t know either. Must have been a comedy or a drama, and Angus Grim was actually in that. That was his first time working with him. 

Craig:  Yeah. Several of the actors had worked with him, previously. The the principal actors. In fact, I think most of the principal actors had. Yeah. 

Todd:  People he knew. And, he just was was decided, you know, horror movies seem to sell. He was inspired by Suspiria, We come out around that time 

Craig:  And you can definitely see some influence there. I was definitely you know, there’s 1 scene in particular, the first scene where, the metallic orbs appear and The 1st guy that’s, impaled by the orbs, the blood comes shooting out, and it’s that bright, bright red, that’s really typical The goal of and those other types of 

Todd:  The very saturated colors, the very over the top thing. Yeah. The music, especially. Yeah. And, To me, the music makes this film. 

Craig:  It’s great. It’s so atmospheric. It almost Does as much for the storytelling as the acting or the dialogue. 

Todd:  Oh, honestly, I was just thinking about that about halfway through the movie. I was like, if you were to strip the movie out of the the music out of this scene, for example, it wouldn’t have the same effect. Right? And and normally, that would be a criticism. A lot of times, if the music is sort of telling you how to feel or is trying to push your emotions. You spot it a mile away, you sort of sniff a rat, and and you don’t like it. But in this movie, it really does drive it, and it makes scenes that would otherwise be fairly pedestrian Yeah. Really creepy, and it just adds to that surreal quality. 

Craig:  Absolutely. It’s very much a part of the narrative, and it it doesn’t, in any way, like you said, pull you out. And and I think part of that is because it’s pretty consistent. I mean, there’s Not very many scenes in this film that aren’t underscored with something. 

Todd:  That’s true. There are a few. To the point where if there’s a scene without music, You kinda notice it, and it and it has its own effect. Mhmm. Yeah. It’s good that way. And it and it’s very reminiscent of, the music in and a lot of Dario Argento’s films, when he used goblin. Mhmm.   There’s a movie that he did. I think it’s called Phenomenon. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd:  And that It’s very reminiscent of this score, and, supposedly, Coscarelli himself admitted that the score that Goblin dead force Hesperia heavily influenced what he did for this film. Interesting. 

Clip:  And now 

Todd:  I don’t think he composed the music for this film, but he pretty much did everything else. 

Craig:  Else. Yeah. Wrote, directed, Produced. He was inspired, by a dream that he had, I think, when he was a kid. But regardless, he He dreamed that he was in this big marble hallway being pursued by some kind of force, and and there were these Chrome orbs that were were being shot out of some sort of instrument and were chasing him. And, obviously, you know, that features heavily in the movie, and, It’s cool. 

Todd:  It’s really cool. Part of that uniqueness Yeah. 

Craig:  That you’ve never seen anything like it before. Right. But for me, it’s so iconic. You know? I I see That you see that orb anywhere, anything that’s even reminiscent. It immediately takes you here. It’s it’s not generic at all. Oh, no. 

Todd:  Well, the movie starts out in a strange Place, there’s this sort of it almost feels like to me crammed in sex scene. Yeah. You know, it’s like one of those where the distributor said you gotta have some boobs in here. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Right. And so you slap something together last minute, throw it together. Although it turns out to be pretty Central to the plot where there’s a guy, his name is Tommy. Uh-huh. We don’t know that at the time, but he’s basically having sex with this woman in the cemetery Mhmm. And she stabs him. Right. And you see this quick flash, where it’s showing a close-up of the woman’s face, but then it’s like a man’s face, and then it’s a woman’s face again, and then it goes immediately As a lot of these scenes do, just immediately goes to something different. 

Craig:  Right. Now now, again, if I was being critical, which I’m not going to 

Todd:  You can be creative. 

Craig:  That would be one of the things that would be one of the things that I would say is maybe a kind of a weakness of this movie is the editing. It it it jumps from scene to scene, and there’s not a lot of explanation of what happens in the interim. Yeah. And I am 90% positive that that’s That’s because the original cut of this movie was almost 4 hours long. 

Todd:  Yeah. It was insane. 

Craig:  Yeah. And, Coscarelli, you know, he didn’t even need anybody to tell him too long. You know? He he realized that that was gonna be way too long to hold, people’s attention. So he cut it down to what? Like, an hour 40 something? 

Todd:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And, you can kinda tell. You can kinda tell that there are bits and pieces missing. They found some of that footage later, and, actually, I I think they used some of it and used The narrative part of it to inform the 4th movie, but some of it was lost, but not not all of it. But, you can you can tell. That part, you can tell. 

Todd:  You can. And I don’t think it entirely works out of the film’s favor. I think that that’s part of the charm of the movie, and it adds to that surreal quality, Especially so that the ending doesn’t seem as abrupt as it would otherwise. Mhmm. The ending and we’re gonna get to it later, but the ending does seem like, woah. Where did we how did we get here? Right. But because you’re hit with that throughout the film, like, woah. How did we get here? What what okay.   That was cool. That was abrupt. You’re set up for it, and it it just to me, it adds to that surreal quality. I agree. But what it does strip away, and my understanding is there was a lot more Character development, in the original cut, and a lot of that got cut out. Right. And that is what I would say is one of the Many admittedly weaknesses of this film is that it’s straight story. It is bare minimum.   Here are actions that are happening, and here are the characters’ reactions to them. You don’t get a strong sense of who these people are Right. And their backstory and their relationships with each other except for the fact that, oh, these 2 are brothers 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And, oh, these 2 are friends. Right. You know? 

Craig:  Yeah. There’s at one point in the movie, the older brother, Jody, sends the younger brother, Mike. He says, take him to Sally’s at the antique store. And and so the the kid goes, and there’s Sally. And Sally apparently has a sister, Susie, and there’s there’s kind of a A scene with them, but we have no idea who they are. Susie and Sally. Right. And and then they kind of disappear, and then it’s kind of just Lane, oh, yeah.   We found them, and they got away. I mean, you get the sense that you’re missing big parts of the story. There’s 1 scene where the 3 main guys, Mike, Jody and Reggie, all come back. I couldn’t even tell really whose house it was, but they all converge at somebody’s house. And, This lady, I guess she’s supposed to be a a housekeeper or something just pops out of nowhere. 

Clip:  Hey. You boys back here. Jesus Christ Myrtle. Oh. You almost gave me a coronary. 

Craig:  And that’s the only time you ever see her. I have no idea who she is. I have no idea why she was in their house. 

Todd:  Is like, oh, Myrtle, you scared me. We’re like, who the 

Craig:  heck’s Myrtle? 

Todd:  And you never know. No. Because you never 

Craig:  scared me. You you kind of forgive it because it keeps the pacing going. I mean, there aren’t any laws in this movie. I mean, it keeps going. The action, although The the dots don’t always seem to connect exactly. We keep moving Yeah. 

Todd:  Throughout. And that’s fine. And and it’s almost humorously so. Right. You know, in the beginning after that that scene. The very next shot is a a shot of the house, which you said is the house from 

Craig:  From burnt offerings. 

Todd:  Bird offerings, which is standing in for, like a funeral home in this movie. Right. Mhmm. 

Craig:  And, yeah, it’s it’s a a really cool looking house, but You you’re right. We jump right to the Tommy’s funeral, and that’s where we’re introduced to, really, our main characters, Jody who it appears I mean, there’s a little bit of dialogue that suggests that Jody and Reggie, who is a bald guy who drives an ice cream truck, That’s kind of the extent of his characterization, but, Jody and Reggie and, Tommy, did you say his name was? 

Todd:  Tommy was the one who died. Yeah. 

Craig:  Who want I think they were, like, buddies. Like, they were like a trio. 

Todd:  Oh, it’s hilarious. It’s it’s like a guy who just got out of film school writing a script just been told be economical in your screenplay because you get the shot of the house, and then Reggie pops into frame and goes 

Clip:  Jody. Hi, Reg. How’s it going? Tommy’s gone. It’s, it’s a hell of a way to end a trio. It’s hard to believe that killed himself. Hey. I, I’m gonna go visit somebody. I’ll catch you inside.   Yeah. 

Todd:  And they leave, but at the same time, well, we might as well get along with the plot. Sure. Right. Let’s let’s keep moving. And it’s bizarre because then, Reggie Just starts exploring the mausoleum. It’s like he’s going for the funeral, but he decides to pop into the funeral home, which is also a mausoleum. 

Craig:  I think That’s Jody. Right? Isn’t it? Jody. Yeah. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Jody’s the one. 

Craig:  And he goes into this mausoleum. He had also said something. Reggie had said something to to him. It’s best that you didn’t bring your little brother, and the little brother is Mike. Jody says, yeah. When we had our parents’ funeral, here just a little while ago really kinda freaked him out, so I figured I’d better send him I I better not let him come. 

Clip:  That’s right. 

Craig:  So we don’t know what happened to their parents, but they’re dead, apparently. And so Jody goes in, and he’s kinda looking around. And we were commenting on this mausoleum. I mean, it it’s it’s kind of, Impressive in the way that it’s set up. I mean, it’s made to look larger than life. I I kept thinking, where in this house is this 

Todd:  Serial doesn’t match the interior at all. No. 

Craig:  And it it it’s it’s like this huge, you know, floor to ceiling marble white marble mausoleum, Which, you know, if if if you read up on it. 

Todd:  Yeah. There’s something off about it. When you look at the marble, you’re like, it I don’t know why it looks so fake, but it just It’s so patterned and fake and 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  You were telling me. It it’s because, I 

Craig:  mean, they just constructed the set out of plywood and covered it in contact paper. You know, like, people in the seventies would have, like, lined their counters with or whatever, faux marble. And it’s it’s funny because we were talking about it. It’s JJ Abrams, right, who We’re planning on doing a, 4 k restoration of this, and I wonder how that’ll play out because there are some of those, you know, that You 

Todd:  don’t Honestly, that’s a great deal. 

Craig:  Right? I’m afraid it’ll make it look cheaper than it is. And it’s already cheap, but but they do a good you know, You can you can work with cheap, and they work with it here. 

Todd:  Well, you know, that’s actually the criticism I had of the evil dead. Do you own the evil dead DVD? 

Craig:  The 

Todd:  remastered one. I thought it lost a little bit by remastering it in DVD and making bright all of the areas that Previously in my old dirty, grungy VHS copies were so dark and dingy and hard to make out. I felt like it cleaned up a movie that didn’t really benefit from being cleaned Right. And I would worry that a 4 k restoration of this film would do the same thing. 

Craig:  I don’t know. We’ll see. I will I’ll see. I’ll I’ll wanna watch it. 

Todd:  I will. Yeah. It’d be interesting just to see some how some of these special effects hold on. 

Craig:  Right. So you’re right. Jody is in there, and, I didn’t notice it the 1st time around, but he kneels down and and looks at, the spot where his his dad is, there in that moment. And then he stands up, and I think somebody puts a hand on his shoulder. And he turns around, and it’s Angus Skrim, the tall man looking, you know Sinister. Very sinister, and he he only has probably, like, 3 or 4 lines in the whole movie. It’s very true. He says something like 

Clip:  The funeral is about to begin, sir. 

Todd:  With the eyebrow raise. 

Craig:  Right. Right. And, so the funeral bins. Meanwhile, Mike is hiding out in the cemetery watching from afar. As it turns out, it seems like Mike is Keeping a really close eye on Jody because he’s afraid Jody’s gonna take off, and and leave him behind. So he sees part of the funeral, but then after everybody else has left, he’s still lingering around. And, Tommy’s coffin, you know, The pallbearers had had delivered it to the, gravesite. But after everybody goes, this Tall guy returns with, the hearse and by himself picks up this huge coffin and, loads it back in the hearse The hearse.   Yeah. Mhmm. Which is which is odd. And, so, So, Mike’s a little spooked out, so he goes to his friendly neighborhood psychic. Right. 

Todd:  And that’s one of the weirdest thing. It’s it’s, again, I emblematic of the strange cuts in this film. And the strange way that the story progresses is that he’s weirded out by it. So the next shot is him sort of sauntering down a road, and there’s a sign with the hand on it, you know, that means psychic. And he walks in the house, And this is a very bizarre scene. And this is, again, the scene that’s setting you up that this is just gonna be a bizarre movie. Right. There’s a woman at the door, a girl, And she says and she’s about his age. 

Craig:  Seemingly. Yeah. 

Clip:  Says Hi, Michael. Hi. Is your grandmother home? Sure. Come in. 

Todd:  And by the way, her acting is maybe the worst And he sits down, and it’s this room that’s just filled with candles like it’s always filled with candles, And she wheels out this woman who must be blind because she has these The blackout shades. Right? Mhmm. And the and she sits down next to her. She says, tell grandmother what you wanna say. Yeah. What’s on 

Craig:  your mind? What’s bothering her? 

Todd:  And he starts him with a little bit of exposition, which is basically, I’m worried that, it’s about Jody again. So we know that he’s been there multiple times and that Jody is a topic, and I’m worried that he’s gonna leave me. And we get this flashback sequence, and it’s It’s neat the way it’s edited because we don’t even realize that it’s a flashback sequence when it’s happening. At least, I didn’t. I thought maybe it was cutting from the reading until, you know, to the next day. And it’s just this moment where they drive the car in and Jody gets out, and he says, oh, They they pop the hood, and the Joey says, oh, I think it’s the such and such, and he gets under the car and starts to fix it. And then some other guy pulls up who’s clearly a A I’m sorry. Red, Michael is the one who fixed it.   Right. Another guy pulls up and gets out of the car and says, oh, hey, Jody. How you doing? And It’s like a buddy of his. Oh, I’m sorry to hear about, you know, your your friend, Tommy. They’re having this conversation as though Reggie’s not, You know, 12 feet away from them under the car, and he’s talking about Reggie. And 

Craig:  he’s You, Mike. Mike. This is Brent. Thank you. 

Todd:  I’m gonna get this totally messed up. Rames are hard. That’s right. Reggie’s the bald ice cream guy. You’re right. Alright. Jody and this other friend are talking about the the kid Mike, and they’re basically saying, well, I I, I’m worried about him. I’m thinking about, sending him away somewhere.   So you can kinda see that Michael’s feelings are not unwarranted. Right. It’s just really neat the way that that’s edited together where it goes from their conversation into a voice over, Into another section where Jody is, like, driving riding his bike down the street, and Michael is chasing after him. It’s interesting. This very artistic moment where we get the sense all in 1 scene that is a flashback that Michael is worried about Jody leaving him, and then you get that visual of him constantly chasing him around and and chasing him down the street as though he’s leaving him. And then it cuts immediately back to the psychic, and you’re suddenly taken out of it like, oh, yeah. That’s right. We were the psychic, and and that must have been a flashback.   Well 

Craig:  and it felt really economical. Like, they wanted to get that little bit of exposition in, and and they don’t get much But I’m glad that they did there because then you really kind of get a sense of what the relationship is between these 2 brothers, and that’s kind of important. If there’s gonna be you know, if there’s any important relationship, in the story I mean, the friendship with Reggie is kinda central too, but, really, it’s Jody and Mike looking out for each other, and I thought that scene did a good job of establishing that. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s an understated moment in a movie that doesn’t have many under moments. Right? But, anyway, that that scene wraps up in a very strange way, and that the girl says, grandmother wants you she it’s like she’s She can channel grandmother? Yeah. Grandmother doesn’t talk. Yeah. 

Craig:  The other girl talks for her. 

Todd:  And she says grandmother wants you to play a little game, and Suddenly, a box just magically appears on the table. Mhmm. Literally magically appears on the table in front of him, and she says, put your hand in the box. And so he puts his hand in the box, and instantly, It’s like the box is grabbing onto him, and it hurts, and he’s trying to gag his hand out. 

Clip:  Hey. This thing really hurts. Don’t fear, Michael. I can’t get my hand out. Don’t fear. Can he bite my hand? Don’t fear. It was simply a reflection. Fear is the killer.   That’s what grandmother wants you to learn. 

Todd:  The idea being, I guess, he loses his fear and so he’s able to pull his hand out of the box, and that’s the lesson that he learns, which 

Craig:  comes back around in the end. I mean, it’s not really all that important or significant, but it does come back around in the end, and they it kind of helps him, to escape, in the end. But it is it’s kind of an odd scene. And that’s one of the things about this movie is you never really know what to expect. There are so many different elements of it. Yeah. A gypsy woman who can make things magically appear and disappear. You know? What’s that all about? 

Todd:  It’s odd because it seems to be setting up that they live in this sort of magical world, but they don’t. Right. But he’s doesn’t seem to be terribly surprised at all of this happening. It’s like maybe well, it’s a little unusual, but not unlike many of my other previous sessions or something. 

Clip:  I 

Craig:  guess. Well so the young girl tells Mike, you don’t have to worry about the Jody thing. We told you that before. The Jody thing is gonna be fine. If he leaves, he’ll take you with him. But then he says, well, there’s this other weird thing that And he explains what happened at the cemetery and seeing the tall man, and that’s when they do the test thing. 

Todd:  Oh, that’s weird. 

Craig:  And that’s that’s kind of that’s kind of it. That’s the end of the session. But after the I think the next scene is the young girl going to the mausoleum. I guess she’s just Checking things out. That was strange. 

Todd:  It was kinda weird. And she’s checking up on a story? Or 

Craig:  Yeah. I I guess. And so she she goes in there, and she walks through the place that we’ve already seen, the big marble place. But at the end of one of the corridors in that marble place is this, like, wooden door. And she opens it, and this Blaring white light shines out on her, and then it cuts to the outside of the house and you hear a scream. And so you know that there’s something sinister. Not that we didn’t already, But, obviously, there’s something sinister going on there, but we really have no idea what it is. And that’s another one of those things that just kind of goes unexplained. 

Todd:  You know? 

Craig:  We we don’t know what happened to that girl. At the end when, like I said before, Reggie at some point towards the end, they find themselves back in there, and he says, oh, I found a bunch of girls. They were fine, but they were scared, so I just let them go. Like, I I I felt like one of them. Yeah. That’s kinda what I felt like was being suggested. I don’t know. There are lots of loose ends, And normally, loose ends really bother me, but I just I I refuse to allow them to bother me here because the storytelling is so fun. 

Todd:  Yeah. You you almost just have to dismiss that as a and and wonder if it was a dream sequence at times, and who knows? It could very well you could explain it that way. It’s interesting, but it does set up that door. And that’s one thing this movie does at least do a very good job at, and that is They are setting up everything. Very little of this film comes at you that has not been forecast previously. Right? Right. Because I believe the next scene after this is just Jody hanging out on his at at a Oh, you’re right. You’re right.   Porch. Right? And he’s playing on electric guitar. And This is when we first well, when we see what Reggie does, when Reggie drives a ice cream truck, basically. He pulls up, and he sits down, and he starts to sit down and jam with Jodie on their front porch, and they actually are both playing. Yeah. That’s really quite impressive. 

Craig:  They sing a little tune. 1 of them wrote that. I don’t know which Fine. One of them wrote that little ditty. 

Todd:  I guess that’s what you do when you’re writing around the people that you know. Right? And he they play their tune, and it’s kind of a cute moment. It establishes them as Friends is something they do. It might be the most character development you get out of this film. 

Craig:  It felt very natural. You got the sense that those actors probably sat around on set and Yeah. Jammed, Together. 

Todd:  This is familiar. And at the end, he pulls out a tuning fork, you know, hits it across his hand and then puts it against the guitar, and you hear the And it’s interesting how the camera just Zooms in on that as though it’s significant. Mhmm. And it is. It is. Eventually. It is. And it’s just one of those things that, again, this movie really sets up and forecast things for you in advance.   And for all the faults of the screenplay and the writing and the dialogue, at least those aspects of it are pretty darn solid. Nothing ever really comes at you, like, except for the woman in the house. Right. Nothing else really ever comes at you where you go, where the heck did that 

Craig:  come up? Right. Right. As bizarre as it may be, they’re ties. And that’s one of the things when I watched this whole series, the ones that have been released so far, that was one of the things that I was impressed with. They really maintain a continuity throughout the whole series, And they keep the same actors throughout the series except for part 2. Now I guess that, this I don’t know how the film did at the box office originally Mhmm. But It established, you know, a strong cult following so that, 10 years it was 10 years after the first one was released that the sequel came out. And it got, I think, you know, studio backing, and they were given a budget and whatnot.   But what comes with that, of course, is then studio interference. And, the studio did not wanna recast either Mike or Reggie, and Coscarelli fought for it, and the only compromise that they would come to is they they demanded that he make them both audition. And then once they had both auditioned and he Still wanted to cast them both. They said you can’t. You can’t cast both. If you if you have to keep 1, you can keep 1. Really? And so he they he kept the actor that played Reggie, And the kid that played Mike was recast with a a more stereotypically Hollywood kinda good looking guy. 

Todd:  Was Jodie even in the second one? 

Craig:  I don’t remember if Jodie is in the second one or not. 

Todd:  At least the same actor is not in that second one. 

Craig:  Right. He does, however, pop up, at some point again in the franchise. I don’t remember when, but when by 3rd. When he does pop up again, I do believe it is the same actor. And I think Sally, who we don’t see really anything of in this movie 

Todd:  back of her head. Right? 

Craig:  I I think she she comes back and and plays more of a key role. But then for well and so the actor who plays, Mike in this film is bitter Yes. About the fact that he was not allowed be included in the second one. Is this the the later one? 

Clip:  He 

Craig:  is. They brought him back. They brought him back. And, you know, unfortunately, mister Skrim has has passed, but, They filmed the 5th movie, and it the the filming is complete. You know? It’s it’s just in postproduction. And that was, you know, my selfish thought when I heard that, Angus had died. I thought, well, at least they finished Ravager. 

Todd:  I 

Craig:  I’m I’m glad and it is selfish, but I really am glad that we’re gonna get the opportunity to see him screen. And that was a total diversion. But my point was the you know, as as much as they had to work with what they had to work with with editing Throughout the rest of the franchise, the continuity is really, really good. And and, I mean, it’s it’s a a good continuing story that doesn’t feel forced. I’m a fan. 

Todd:  Well, they’re setting up an interesting world, and I don’t think it was a conscious world building, at least initially. I’m sure Coscarelli wasn’t even conceiving the fact that there could be multiple sequels after this, but the fact that it could then hold up is really grounded In the world that’s built in the 1st film just being so unique and so different that you could go a lot of different ways with it. 

Craig:  Right. And and that may be, you know, Actually, because so little is explained here in this film, that really opens things wide up. Like, for example so, Eventually, Mike comes back, to kind of investigate the mausoleum, and, he breaks in. He busts in a window. He goes in. He’s almost discovered by somebody who I guess is, like, an employee of the mausoleum or something. I couldn’t really tell who 

Todd:  it was. 

Craig:  Comes and goes. He hides in a coffin, but then he he gets out, and he kind of hears these weird things, going on, but you never really see anything. And then you hear this sound, which ends up being the sound of the orbs flying around. And the guy who had almost caught him before does catch him, gets him in a Tokehold. He’s trying to fight, but then one of these flying orbs comes around the corner and a big, like, Spiky thing comes out of it, and it impales itself in that guy’s head Like his forehead. Right. His forehead. And then, like, a drill Comes out and, like, drills into his forehead, and the blood is gushing out.   It’s the only real gore in this whole film. 

Todd:  Yeah. Couple people get stabbed, but it’s not. It’s like an old school homestead. But, yeah, it’s interesting the combination of this Creepy old school mausoleum. You’re getting the sense that we’re involving the dead and we’re involving death in kind of an old school way, I think, Like a creepy old universal film. Yeah. You know? But here is this modern, very polished sphere coming through, Drilling into his head and then very clinically squirting the blood out of the back in just a very steady stream as though we’re performing some sort of surgical procedure. 

Craig:  Yeah. Creepy. It is creepy. And, Mike falls to the floor, and, the guy who died falls to the floor too and wets himself. And it’s it’s funny that Postmortem wedding. Postmortem. Right. It’s fun.   The film was originally rated x, and and that was one of the reasons Because the guy wet himself after he got killed. 

Todd:  Really? 

Craig:  Yeah. I have no idea. It was a different time. Yeah. Oh, I know. I’m I’m sitting watching this thinking, really? My gosh. Think how far we’ve come with what they can get away with showing. I mean, this is tame.   I I feel like today, this would be rated PG PG 13. 

Todd:  Of course. I don’t see where you get an x out of this. I have no idea. There’s not even thematically 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Does it require an x. 

Craig:  And I guess I think it was Coscarelli just Called in a favor. He he knew somebody on the ratings board and said, can you help me out? And they were like, sure. And so he didn’t have to end up cutting anything. Just bopped it back down to the r. 

Todd:  Well, it was kind of unnecessary for him to wet himself. I mean 

Craig:  He right. 

Todd:  But you’ve already shot the footage. It’s a lot like he could reach you, 

Craig:  I’m sure. Right. But, anyway, so then Mike gets up, and, this was I don’t know if it was intentionally funny or not, but, Mike gets up and he kinda Starts walking away, and here comes the tall man around, the corner. Ed might just what does he say? He’s like, 

Clip:  Oh, shit. 

Todd:  It is The most honest piece of dialogue in this whole film. You’ve seen horror movies where people react in certain ways. This is the way you would really react. Totally. Totally. 

Craig:  And they kinda start walking towards one another, and then Mike hightails it out of there. But he before he gets out, And and we’ve seen a glimpse of these things before. They’re like these little oh, gosh. What would you call them? Dwarves, I 

Todd:  guess? They look like Ewoks or or what are they? The Jawas? Yeah. Star Wars? 

Craig:  I don’t remember what they were called, but those little short robed guys in Star Wars that were also parodied in, 

Todd:  Yeah. I think they’re the jaw the ones who, who were Scavenging at the very beginning who take the droids in. 

Craig:  Right. The ones who in Spaceballs, the 

Todd:  you know that? That’s right. 

Craig:  So it looks like those and and he gets attacked by a couple of those. And from then on, it’s really just A matter of kind of doing some more investigating, getting chased a little bit. In his Fleeing from the tall man, he slams the door behind him, and the tall man’s fingers get smashed into the door. And he’s got a big old Mike has a big buck knife on him, and he Slices the fingers off, and I guess he grabs 1. Eventually, he escapes. He goes home. 

Todd:  Right. But the fingers gush like a like a yellowish liquid. You’re expecting blood. You’re seeing yellow, and that’s one of the first moments where you’re just I mean, the movie’s already weird, but that just totally throws it off. Right. 

Craig:  And, I mean, it’s obviously establishes this guy is not Human is something else. Now Mike has the evidence. He goes home, and he’s he’s talking to Jody. 

Todd:  I love this dude. 

Craig:  And He’s like, look. I’ll show you. I’ve got it right here, and he’s got this box. And he opens it up, and sure enough, there’s the Finger in there, wriggling around, and Jodie looks at it for a second and goes, okay. I believe you. 

Todd:  It’s what you’d like to happen in every other movie. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  But usually the evidence disappears. Right. Here’s the actual wriggling figure in the box like this. 

Craig:  And really from there, You know, it’s it’s kinda just some back and forth. Jody Jody goes and investigates. He gets attacked by the little dwarf people. He comes back home. Somehow well, no. He escapes out of the house, but the tall man follows him 

Todd:  in the hearse. Then, Bregy comes after him in the hearse. Mike. Mike. Sorry. Mike comes after him. 

Craig:  In the hearse. And then they had, like, a car chase. The nobody’s driving the car supposedly. It appears. You know, Jody goes all badass and, like, stands up in the sunroof of, like, shooting shotgun at the at the car, and he eventually gets the car Crash. And when they find it, it was being driven by somebody, but it was one of those dwarfs, which is why they couldn’t see. And, the dwarf has been entirely impaled, But they pull back his 

Todd:  Robe. 

Craig:  His robe, his hood, and his face is the face of Tommy, their friend who had died. And so we’ve kind of realized here, and it’s kind of explained a little bit further, that the tall man, whoever he is and for whatever purpose, is harvesting dead people to do his bidding. And then, apparently, somehow, he shrinks them down. 

Todd:  Kind of crushes them more than shrinks them because their head’s The same size, but they’re sort of digitized. 

Craig:  Right. And, like, they they pull, Reggie just shows up, and and they pull, Jody and Reggie pull Tommy out of there, and Reggie comments, well, he’s only 3 feet tall, but he still must weigh 200 pounds. And this is, Kind of explained later when the origins of the tall man are somewhat explained. I mean, it’s never fully explained. But, apparently, he’s from a different planet. And the reason that he has to shrink them down is so that, I guess their body mass will be about the gravity. Right. Their body mass will be more Condensed so the gravity won’t affect them as much.   And wherever it is, it’s really hot there. But Yeah. That comes up later. But then, you know, there’s the thing with Tina at the antique store. 

Todd:  Yeah. Even though Michael has pretty much bailed out his brother, Jody, in the 2 or 3 times that Jody’s gone out and insisted that Mike stay home. Mike, doing what Mike does, follows Jody and either with the car or whatever bails him out. Mike Jody still insists This last time that Mike really stay at the antique store with Susie and Sally, which Susie and Sally. Come on. I know. Come on. Right? Anyway 

Craig:  And it really seems like a totally inconsequential scene, and really it is, except Step 4, when he’s in that antique store, he finds a photograph, and I guess we’re supposed to think that the photograph kind of comes to life. 

Todd:  You know, that was where I was a little confused because I thought a stronger scene would have been that he would have found the photograph that’s obviously an old antique photograph that nevertheless shows the tall man back in the day as he as he is now. Right. 

Craig:  In front of the same mausoleum, but, like, with a with a horse 

Todd:  drawn The horse. Yeah. And I thought, oh, wow. That would be this creepy realization that this tall man’s clearly out of this world because he’s lived this long. But then the picture kind of comes to life in front of him. The tall man, it zooms in on the tall man. The tall man looks at him for a moment and then turns back. I wasn’t sure if that was supposed to be in his mind or if that was actually the photograph Like a Harry Potter 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Right. Moving photograph thing that happened for his benefit. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I really don’t know. And the scene I mean, You get the sense that they’re trying to establish that this guy has been around for a long time. But beyond that, it doesn’t really seem to serve a lot of purpose. No. However, They return to it later on in the series, and they kind of explain the origins of not necessarily where the tall man came from, but why he looks like the tall man. Oh, interesting. There I guess there was, a minister named Jebediah something.   I’m not gonna remember what it was. And and he was, you know, the the What the tall man looks like is that guy. And this guy, you know, dealt with death a lot, and so he kind of became interested in, gosh, I don’t know, parapsychology or something. And he built a machine that ended up being kind of a cross dimensional transport machine. 

Clip:  Oh, okay. 

Craig:  And he went into it And I guess ended up on the planet of whatever the tall man is, presumably was killed by the tall man, and the tall man took his Form. 

Todd:  Oh, okay. 

Craig:  That makes sense. So you get that history. I think that’s in part 3. I don’t remember. It’s been so long since I’ve seen them. But Yeah. Again, it’s just one of those little things, and and I’m sure they didn’t have any of that planned. But there was that moment that they could draw from later down the line, and they utilized it.   And I I think that’s really cool. 

Todd:  That’s good. Well, yeah, it’s it’s definitely a weird moment. Susie and Sally, he he says, I gotta get home. I gotta get home. And so they drive him home, And they run across Reggie’s ice cream truck, which is on its side in the middle of the road. And he says, you girls wait here. I’m gonna go and expect this. And He goes and he sees that indeed Reggie is gone.   Body is gone from the truck, but there are still these noises happening. He runs to the car and says, we’ve gotta get out of here now, And these dwarf creatures attack them. Right. End up dragging the girls out of the car. 

Craig:  No. The girls stay in the car. 

Todd:  I can’t You’re right. They end up taking off. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And Reggie ends up, getting knocked out the back window. Right? By by 

Craig:  the end of this podcast, you’re gonna know that that 

Clip:  kid’s name is Mike. 

Todd:  Thank you. 

Clip:  I don’t 

Todd:  know I wanna keep calling is his is the actor’s name Reggie? 

Craig:  I don’t 

Todd:  think so. I don’t know. Reggie is Mike. The ball the Reggie is the bald. Mike is the kid. Right. Mike. Alright.   Mike is with the girls. Mike was with the anyway, Mike gets thrown out the back window of this, car and into the street. It’s an interesting moment where he is laying in the street and unconscious, and then you see a shot of Jodie almost like He has the the spidery spidey sense 

Craig:  that it Like, it’s some kind of psychic connection or something. 

Todd:  Yeah. Then there’s a shot of Mike again, and then there’s a shot of Jodie. And then there’s Each It’s convenient that he could just run home because supposedly, he was besieged by these guys who must be way more interested in the girls and dispersed into the woods. But, he comes home, and there they are. 

Craig:  And, again, it’s basically time for the final showdown, but, as Every other time in the movie, Jodie says, you’re not coming. 

Clip:  You have 

Todd:  to stay here. And he picks 

Craig:  him up. Picks him up, takes him up to his room, locks him in his room, like, jams a, A screwdriver in the door so he can’t get out. And then it’s it’s funny. Mike devises a way to get out, and I feel like you’ve referenced this in some other podcast. 

Todd:  This in a previous podcast Because let me tell you, this scene, maybe I’m embarrassed to say it after watching it now, but this scene up until this moment just impressed the heck out of me. And maybe it Still does to a certain extent because you’ll often have these MacGyver moments in a movie where a character grabs All these detrious that’s around the room and quickly assemble something, but it’s usually played like they’ve done this before where they know what they’re doing or a quick glance around the room and they know immediately what to do. Right. What I like about this scene is it plays to me as fairly realistic. It takes its Time. The kid tries the door. He can’t get out the door. He’s really ticked off.   He sits down at his desk in frustration. He sobs a bit. He’s sort of stops sobbing and just sort of staring at the wall trying to decide what to do. And to my mind, you can really See him clearly putting the pieces in place. He pulls the shotgun shell out of his, Shirt pocket. 

Craig:  Right. They’ve been armed for a while now. That’s right. Yeah. 

Todd:  There’s been a lot of the shotgun happening, and he’s just playing with it. And as he’s playing with it, it’s like he gets an idea, And he sees that the hammer is there on the desk, and and the hammer can be on the desk because, you know, he’s he’s mechanically minded. Right. And that’s actually, again, another case of where Coscarelli at least Did a really good job in the script of forecasting that this guy is mechanically minded. You know, he works on cars and things even though he’s only 13. Right? And he pulls a pin off the wall and he jams it and he has trouble 

Clip:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  You know, jamming it into the shotgun shell, but he gets it and he ends up taping it around. I just liked that scene. I liked watching an I the genesis of an idea and somebody slowly try to put it together in a kind of clumsy way like you and I might do at home. Right. Except in this case, it works. He slams the hammer with the shotgun shell attached to the end to the door, Blast a hole in it so he can reach through and open the door. Right. Right.   I don’t know, man. I I just like that scene. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s it’s it’s kind of a cool scene. I mean, it’s, he he’s innovative. It it seems incredibly dangerous. I don’t know how he I don’t know how he came out of that without some buckshot in his groin or something, but, it works, and he gets out, and then he heads oh, no. Jody is headed to the mausoleum, but when Mike opens his Front door, there stands the tall man like he was there all along waiting for him. 

Todd:  And that’s a good unexpected moment. 

Craig:  Right. And the tall man grabs lifts him up in the air, throws him in the back of the hearse. 

Todd:  Oh, and when he does that, there’s another great moment, which again, you don’t see in a lot of movies is the tall man’s lifting him up by just by his 

Craig:  Like, the scruff of his 

Todd:  Scruff of his jacket. Mhmm. And Jody’s kicking, and he’s kicking for a while until the towman lifts him about 3 or 4 feet higher. When Jody you can just see the look on his face like, this is pointless. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Like, this will not kick because this guy, you know, is lifting you in the air. Another great moment that is so understated that may have been a happy accident, but I absolutely love it. Right. He the the tall man throws him in 

Craig:  the back of the hearse, And they head off presumably towards the mausoleum, but Mike’s packing heat, so he pulls out his, pistol. Like, it’s 

Todd:  like Jodie. I’m sorry. 

Craig:  I don’t 

Todd:  know what you called him Jodie about 15th. They’re used to 

Craig:  it by now, Todd. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about, folks. So, anyway, He’s got this it’s like a like a Glock or something. It’s like this huge gun. He shoots out the back window, and then he kinda shoots down into the wheel well and the tire explodes. He jumps out the back and the car crashes and is just immediately it explodes like engulfed in flame. So, you know, It would be reasonable to think that the tall man is dead, but, of course, this is a horror movie and he’s an alien. So, he’s not. 

Todd:  But they believe he’s dead. 

Craig:  Right. But then everybody somehow kind of magically convenes at the mausoleum. Like, Mike goes there and finds Jody there, and then Reggie just pops up. Oh, 

Clip:  that’s the door. Hey, man. I don’t know. Hey. Come on, guys. Rich, he dead. No. I ain’t 3 foot 2 yet either. 

Todd:  Like, hey, guys. Here I am. They’re like, Oh, nice to see you. And they go to open the door to the door, the the mysterious door. And inside the door and again, the first time I saw this movie blew me away because you are absolutely not expecting a pure white room with these 2 metal tongs sticking out of the ground, this Vibrating sound happening. Yeah. 

Craig:  And the sound effect was really cool there. 

Todd:  It really was. And then just stacks of Industrial looking barrels, 

Craig:  pods. Yeah. 

Todd:  Yeah. With, like, must be a little window on the front. Looks like it. Dark windows on the front. That in a movie that’s always been kind of throwing strange things at you, at least you have the sense that you’re dealing more with the supernatural. 

Clip:  Mhmm. 

Todd:  And then at this moment, okay. It’s sci fi now. 

Craig:  Right. It is very sci fi. Mhmm. And like Todd Said there are these 2 big metal posts. They stand, I would guess, maybe 3, 3 and a half feet high, something like that. High. Yeah. Yeah.   They’re sticking up out of the ground, and, Mike just happens to be standing by them. And as he turns, His hand just kind of brushes through and disappears. In between them. In between them. And so he he pulls it back out, and everything’s fine. Puts it back in. Pulls it back out. Everything’s fine.   He has kind of a mental flashback, you know, to don’t fear, you know, that whole box thing from earlier. He does that his hand a couple times, and then it seems like he kind of stumbles and falls through. 

Todd:  Maybe he gets sucked in a little bit. 

Craig:  Maybe. It’s hard to tell. And then this is such a bizarre scene. You go to you know, it he kind of, like it seems like he’s kind of falling through some red atmosphere, And then he can see below him, I guess, what is supposed to be the tall man’s home planet. It’s like this big desert. The sky is really saturated and red, And those pods have, like, crashed down there, and the little dwarf guys are coming out of them and, like, marching off into the horizon. And and luckily for for Mike, his brother, Jody, had seen him fall. He’d grabbed His, his waistband, yeah, and and pulls him back in.   And Mike’s power of deduction He is Supreme. Right. Tells him, oh. 

Clip:  Slaves. They’re using them for slaves. The dwarves. And they gotta crush them because of the gravity and the heat. And this is the door to their planet. Yeah. 

Craig:  And I know this from the 2 seconds that I was glance in there. But even though we only get a glance of that home planet, it’s really kinda cool looking. It it’s, Very different visually than anything else that we’ve seen so far. 

Todd:  Honestly, it’s impressive with the budget that they worked with, that they were able to get some visuals like that Right. In this film 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  Quite honestly. 

Craig:  And then and then what happens? 

Todd:  I mean, they I mean, and then they, they The lights go out. Yeah. That’s, 

Craig:  For an unexplained reason. Mhmm. And, it’s 

Todd:  kind of a cop out really, I think. 

Craig:  Mike lights his BIC and, 

Todd:  There’s a one of those One of those dwarf creatures in front of him, again, in the hood. 

Craig:  Yeah. And Jody has disappeared. Jody reappears outside. I mean, I’m not talking like he evaporates and then re, You know, materializes. There again. He’s just outside. We don’t know how he got there. 

Todd:  And they’re running Away, Jody’s encountering that girl who, you know, we remember from the beginning. 

Craig:  The lady in lavender who killed the 1st guy in the 1st scene. 

Todd:  Yeah. And we’ve Neglected dimension in an earlier scene in the film kinda gets seduced by him and almost pulls him in as well. And, in in the meantime, Reggie is inside the room, and he gets The same sort of flashback to his tuning fork Mhmm. And gets the idea of putting both hands on those vibrating posts. 

Craig:  Right. To stop the vibrations. 

Todd:  And when he stops that vibration, that’s sort of, I guess, interrupting the key or the flow or the whatever. Yeah. 

Craig:  It’s like turning off a machine or something. I I don’t know. 

Todd:  It causes a mass chaos. What basically happens is all of these big, barrels start getting Sucked in. Right. He starts getting sucked in. Becomes a vacuum. The wind kicks up outside, and, the tall man, At least momentarily anyway, who was disguised as the lady. 

Craig:  Right. Yeah. You you you you think that right. Well and then so he he turns it off, and it turns into a vacuum. He gets out. But as soon as he gets out, he’s confronted by that lady in purple 

Todd:  That’s right. 

Craig:  Who Stabs him in the chest, and then you see they do that close-up thing of her face again, and it kind of flashes in and out between her and the tall man. And, eventually, it’s just tall man. Mhmm. So you get the sense that they are 1 in the same, that he’s able to take on different forms Yeah. If he wants to. 

Todd:  He stands over the body of Reggie, and Reggie is is Deceased. Clearly. The other 2, you know, Mike tries to go and save Reggie, but Jody’s like, no. Don’t he’s dead. Let’s get out of here. And as they start to leave, even the house itself takes on a starts to shimmer, starts to flicker a little bit. You almost think it’s maybe getting sucked into the portal as well. It’s Right.   It’s almost like the end of poltergeist in a way, you 

Craig:  know, the 

Todd:  way it looks. Yeah. Although it never completes that action. 

Craig:  And Mike and Jody go home. They go home. And the plan is they know of this mine shaft a 1000 feet deep. 

Todd:  Oh, this is the weirdest thing. 

Craig:  And, Totally out of character. Jody says, Mike, you stay here at home and and get things ready. And Find some ammo. Right. Find some ammo, and I’m gonna go Take all the warning signs down for this thing, and then we’re gonna we’re gonna leave the tall man there. Well, Mike is not home by himself for more than 30 seconds before the tall man shows up, busts through a window, is is chasing him around. 

Todd:  Mike It’s a really lousy chasing, by the way. It is. He busts through the window, and then the next shot is that, Mike is Quietly sneaking 

Craig:  through a hallway. 

Todd:  Looking for him. Although, then the tall man’s reveal when the back door sort of blows open and he stands there, that’s when he says, 

Clip:  Boy. 

Craig:  And, so so Mike runs out, and he’s running down the road presumably towards this mine shaft, which I guess is just like a block away from their house. It’s it’s really bad. And, the the tall man is is chasing him in Pursuit. And I don’t remember if he actually He says these or if it’s just kind of a voice over. 

Todd:  And I thought that was really nice too. It was sort of an echo in his head, almost like he’s psychically connecting with him or it’s just an artistic way of Showing the passage of time. 

Craig:  But Yeah. The the tall man says, 

Clip:  you play a good game, boy, but the game is over, and now you die. 

Craig:  Mike runs to this mineshaft, leaps over. 

Todd:  Now wait a minute. Before he gets to the mineshaft, he’s running through the woods and he encounters all these Perils. He, suddenly stumbles into a That’s right. Sort of a mud pit that he can’t get his feet out of, and these hands come out of it, try to grab him, but he remembers he can’t fear, and 

Craig:  so he gets out of that. And then he’s The lavender lady shows up. 

Todd:  And but he’s got his knife. He kinda waves in front of him, and then he goes there was one other thing. I don’t remember what, but it was this weird almost nightmare in Elm Street ending kind of thing with Nancy trying to get up the stairs. Right. 

Craig:  Yes. 

Todd:  I guess the idea might be that the tall man is materializing these pseudo non existent dangers in front of him to slow him down. Yeah. 

Clip:  I think so. And and that’s 

Craig:  where his lesson, you know, fear is the killer. Mhmm. He’s able to kinda get himself out of these things, and he runs to the mine shaft. He leaps over it because apparently, 1,000 foot deep mine shafts are only about 2 or 3 feet wide. He leaps over it. The tall man, of course, doesn’t know it’s there. So he falls And he doesn’t fall straight down immediately. He kinda grabs on grabs Mike’s foot and is kinda pulling him, but Mike gets away.   And Jody was ready 

Todd:  With the well placed boulders 

Clip:  boulders 

Craig:  that he he rolls, like, I don’t know, I would say 3 or 4 decent sized rocks and one great big giant boulder down, And they immediately fill this 1,000 foot deep mine shaft. 

Todd:  Which makes you wonder why the local authorities hadn’t done that long time ago. 

Craig:  And then you see Jody up at the top of the hill, and he’s backlit, and he kind of throws his hands up in celebration. And then we cut immediately to a fireplace scene, and I swear that I do not remember this ending at all. And it’s so strange, and I really don’t know how 

Todd:  to explain it. It’s an Odd choice in a very odd movie. And, again, like I said earlier, if you had not been beset by so much oddness coming to it and so many things that you could have interpreted as dream sequences or whatever, you would feel cheated, I think, at this point. There’s a fireplace and it zooms out, And it’s Jody finishing telling the No. It’s it’s it’s Michael finishing telling the story to Reggie. So now Reggie’s alive, and you’re thinking, what’s the deal? And it sort of turns out that Joe that Mike has been telling the store this whole story to Reggie about this very vivid dream that he had. And that Jody, they that 2 weeks earlier, they buried Jody in from a a car accident. 

Craig:  Well and it’s really it’s I it’s confusing because it Seems like Mike is telling it as though he believes it happened, and Reggie keeps saying no. It was just a dream. The tall man didn’t take, Jody. He died in a car accident. And, you know, I’m I’m really sorry, but you’re gonna be okay. And, 

Todd:  I know that, you know, nobody will replace Jody for you, but I’m gonna switch it up. 

Craig:  Right. He says, you know, why don’t you go upstairs and and, get some rest or whatever? So, apparently, we’re we’re meant to believe that this whole entire movie was a dream. 

Todd:  Well, more than that though, I think and I think in this way, it’s a little bit of a genius ending Even though I’m not sure it’s executed well, it almost seems like not just a dream, but it’s Mike’s way of dealing with his brother’s death. 

Craig:  Mhmm. Because And he’d already lost his parents, so to lose his brother too would be very traumatic. Which seems to be the 

Todd:  one thing he was afraid of, You know, was losing his brother whether he ran off or whether he sent him to some school or in this case, whether he died. And the whole film Really centers around these ideas of death and the grave and Loss. Loss. And so it’s fitting in a way, but you’re right. You don’t know how to interpret it. Is it okay? So let’s get back to reality. Is it really a dream, or is it, another one of the tall man’s tricks? 

Craig:  Right. And so then Mike goes upstairs to his room, and he closes his door. And as the door, swings closed, of course, there’s a mirror on the other side of it. And in the mirror, there stands the tall man. And does he boy again? I don’t remember. But he reaches through the glass, grabs Mike pulls him through the glass, and that’s the end, which is 

Todd:  an interesting throwback to a number of other scenes where people are grabbed by hands. There’s the early on in the film, Mike himself has a dream where he’s in bed Mhmm. And suddenly the tall man appears above him and people burst out of the ground and pull him down. Then Jody himself has a dream where he’s sitting in a chair against the wall in the mausoleum, and suddenly the tall man appears, and then hands break out of one of the things behind him and pull him up. This is number 3. You know? This is very reminiscent. It’s now, Mike himself has had, this experience where, you know, the tall man sort of represents death is coming and here are the hands to take you away. Really interesting. 

Craig:  Now if I remember correctly, the sequel retcons the end of the movie. Oh, really? Yeah. It changes The end. So that just part of it, like, the very end, him getting pulled through the mirror, that was a dream. Oh. But the rest of it really happened. And, the rest of the series focuses primarily on Mike and Reggie. It really becomes kind of a buddy movie. 

Todd:  That’s interesting that it would focus on Mike and the Friend of his brother instead of him and his brother. 

Craig:  I wonder if they just couldn’t get the actor out. Yeah. Yeah. I I don’t know. 

Todd:  Well, if if you were to name I mean, if you were to look at that cast And you were to imagine who’s gonna go on to a better acting career after this, who would you have chosen? 

Craig:  Angus Scrim, I guess. Alright. 

Todd:  Let me let me put him out of the picture. 

Clip:  So 

Todd:  The 3 of the 3, who would you have chosen? I have no idea. See, I, myself, even though I thought his his ability was poor, I thought that Jodie had the more movie star look. Yeah. You know? He was the one who felt like a few more acting lessons and get him with the right director. Right. And he’ll go on to be a star because he just has that look, and I don’t think he’s been in much at all since this. 

Craig:  I don’t think I don’t think any of them really have except for these movies. And this is as far as I know. Reggie. 

Todd:  Reggie’s been in a number of horror films since this. 

Craig:  See, and maybe I recognize him from things, but he’s so reminiscent of Clint Howard. 

Todd:  He is. He looks so and plus, Clint Howard played a killer ice cream man. Right. They’re looking about the same. But, no, Reggie, the character the guy who played that has been in a number of horror film. Mostly horror Since then, but, a fair amount of work. But he’s the only one he and Angus are the 

Craig:  only ones. Right. 

Todd:  And I don’t think Angus really left the horror 

Craig:  John, not not very much. You know, I haven’t really seen him in a lot except for this. There was gosh. It’s been a long time ago now, but there was I think it was on HBO or Showtime, masters of Do you remember that series 

Todd:  Yes. 

Craig:  Uh-huh. Where different directors would just kinda do an hour thing every week or so? He was in one of those called something like incident on and off, mountain road or something like that. Right. And, I I remember him from that, but, really, this is what I remember him And it’s it’s funny because he is so sinister, in the movie, and he plays such a good bad guy and just the image of him is so iconic. But when you read about him, when you read about what people say about him, the people who’ve worked with him, the people who knew him personally, apparently, he was just one of the most gentle, Kind, genuine people, super easy to work with, excellent with fans. You know? He he he would do horror conventions and whatnot, and He was totally willing to meet and visit with his fans, pose with them as the character. He’d say boy for anybody who wanted to hear it. He just seemed like such a cool guy.   And and this this edition, the DVD edition that we watched has an introduction with him, and He’s significantly older. I I would guess this was probably 10 or 15 years ago. So he looks kind of more like, an older grandpa kind of figure, And he he he addresses, you know, the he’s introducing and talking to the camera, and he seems like such like, he seems like you would want him to be your grandpa. 

Todd:  Like, he 

Craig:  just seems like this nice, gentle person, and from every account he was. And so I I’m so glad that he has This legacy and his memory will go on, and I think that it will for a really long time. 

Todd:  Well and what he’s sad to say there was really funny too. He he mentioned that Don Coscarelli had approached him to be to play an alien in this film. 

Clip:  And that was all he was going to tell me about it for the moment. My mind raced with the dramatic possibilities. An eager immigrant from the old country, meeting the struggles, the heartbreaks, but the eventual triumphs In the land of opportunity, America. Would I play an Irishman, a Russian, a Chinese? I’d have to master the appropriate accent. Maybe I’d speak initially in another language. 

Todd:  Of course, it becomes this film, which Doesn’t provide a lot of opportunity for him to do much more than stand there, be menacing, and 

Craig:  say, boy. Right. 

Todd:  But he makes the movie. 

Craig:  He does. He does. He makes the movie. 

Todd:  The movie wouldn’t really have, I I doubt the movie would have been much of anything if I 

Craig:  don’t think so either. I I think without The iconic imagery of him and that VHS cover, I don’t think that it it would have stuck around. And, you know, I don’t know how people, I think, personally, that if you wanna count yourself as a true horror fan, you need to see this movie. 

Clip:  Oh, yeah. 

Craig:  You can’t get away without seeing it. I wonder how a younger generation would receive it because the effects are dated. The the editing is a little bit we’ve already talked about. The acting is, a 

Todd:  little bit subpar. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. 

Craig:  It doesn’t make a lot of sense. And, again, Still, you know, I I I saw it 15 years ago. I watched it again tonight, and I still it’s just fun. It’s so unique and creative that I’m So I’m just about willing to forgive anything 

Todd:  Oh, yeah. 

Craig:  Because I I believe that Coscarelli and the people involved in this We’re really giving it their all, and they cared about these characters, and they cared about the story, and it shows. And I I kinda Fanboy out over a little bit. 

Todd:  You can see the love in it, though. It’s Yeah. It’s very, very reminiscent in that way of The Evil Dead 

Clip:  Yes. 

Todd:  Where you can see that these are a bunch of Amateurs really pulling out all the stops and all their resources to make something unique and clever and creative, and you can’t help but get wrapped up in that Right. As well. Right? It’s so cool. And poor Lawrence, worry guy. He lived a good life to 89. Right. Before he got into film, the guy worked for Capitol Records and wrote liner notes, for the Beatles, Frank Sinatra, some of your favorite albums. Yeah.   So you can’t say that this guy, didn’t go out with a bang having lived, quite a full life. Absolutely. 

Craig:  And, you know, I I we’re wrapping up. I I feel like, We can’t go without saying that he wasn’t the only legend we lost this week. We also lost the incomparable David Bowie who is just the epitome of, an artist. As a child of the eighties, just everything about him is iconic to me. You know? What stands out of in my mind, is Labyrinth because that was such a beloved movie to me when I was a kid, but he wasn’t you know, he I don’t he was in his own right and appeared in many films. I I don’t think he ever appeared in a horror film, but, I just couldn’t let let it go without, giving A little shout out to to Bowie. 

Todd:  Well, thank you again for joining us for another episode of 2 Guys in a chainsaw. If you enjoyed this So please share it with a friend. Check us out on Itunes or Stitcher. Like us on Facebook, and join us again next week. Until then, I’m Todd. I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Clip:  chainsaw.

It’s been a long time since we’ve seen a cannibal-themed horror film. Eli Roth’s passion project is a shout-out to the genre, and we really, REALLY wanted to like it.

Find out why it left a bad taste in our mouths in this week’s episode.

The Green Inferno (2013)

Episode 17, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Welcome to another edition of Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

right. And, uh, today we decided to watch, uh, the new Eli Roth film, The Green Inferno. This is his third or fourth film right 

Craig: now as a director. I think. I think actually, yeah, I think this was his third and I think that he’s done one since, as a director, but he’s produced lots of other films.

That’s true. 

Todd: Knock knock was the other one he did write as a director more recently. Yeah. And I saw 

Craig: that recently. It was terrible. It was horrible. It’s one of the worst movies I’ve ever seen. Oh, 

Todd: kidding. Wow. Okay. Well, that’s good to know, you know, I, I saw cabin fever. Right. Which was his first one. And then I really enjoyed that one.

I thought it. Showed a guy who clearly enjoys horror movies and has a sense of humor about them that he’s not afraid to just splash up there. It was a little self-referential. It was a little. Like horror movies tend to be in this post scream era, right. Where we sort of make movies about movies, which I, it gets kind of old after awhile, but there was something about cabin fever that just seemed a little more fun than that.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, I’m kinda touch and go with him. I liked, uh, cabin fever a lot too. I thought hostel part one, which he also directed was good for what it was. Um, and I actually thought that hostel part two, which he also directed was better than the first one, but then, you know, there. Been a couple that are, well, I mean, I guess that’s really kind of all 

Todd: these directly, we named them.

All right. And knock, knock was horrible. You said it 

Craig: well, I really didn’t like it. Uh, and it’s, it’s funny because the, one of the, the principal stars of that film was the young lady who, in this. Movie plays the lead Alejandro or no, not Al Justine, Justine. And, uh, that’s his wife, Eli Roth, his wife. And, uh, she wasn’t bad in the movie.

I just thought that the, I, I just, I just hated the whole premise, the whole script. I just didn’t care for it at all, but, but I, I kinda know what you’re talking about because that’s I, with the post scream kind of feel, cause I kind of felt the same way about this one. It’s got kind of. Cynicism to it. Like it wants to be self-aware and it wants to kind of be kind of in jokey and just tonally.

It felt a little weird, especially in the beginning, like in the beginning, it almost felt like we were watching like a college campus. Comedy for awhile. 

Todd: Try too hard. Is that what you’re 

Craig: getting at? Right. And th the characters seem to be too, I don’t 

Todd: know, just carbon copied, pulled 

Craig: from other films. Right.

Right. You know, just your cynical 20 somethings. Very self-involved think that they can save the world, that whole opening part. I was just kind of feeling, this is just all right. I mean, once they got to the Amazon, I thought things took a turn for the better for me. What did you think? Well, 

Todd: you’re right.

The movie star, I was very unimpressed with it. Starting out extremely unimpressed. Actually it felt really amateurish. It did not seem like this. Guy’s a fourth film. After I really felt like his previous movies were more or less felt really professional. I cabin fever was a little, but once you get to hostel and the others, the quality of the acting was pretty good.

The quality of the dialogue, which he wrote, if I’m not mistaken, was. Pretty good in those films. I agree. And this, I felt the dialogue was terrible. It was forced. And it sounded like he was trying really hard to make that kind of goofy college film with characters who were saying clever, witty things that weren’t clever and witty.

Right, right. They were 

Craig: played that way, especially, you’ve got the main girl Justine and in the beginning she has this kind of emo roommate, beautiful girl. But it just, the character seemed really forced. I mean, she’s saying just the quippy kind of stuff. And he was like, emo. Yeah. That’s so gay. And that’s so retarded, you know, stuff that is even dated for 2015.

Quite honestly, I don’t really talk like 

Todd: that very much. And this is firmly planted in, what’s supposed to be, you know, 2015. Of course the movie was shot in 2013. I don’t know if two years makes that big of a difference. I don’t know. Have we changed that much since, but, but even so I think the quality of the acting was bad.

It was over the top. Yeah. Hurricanes, especially. So I go to 

Craig: this party and Scott’s like, you should totally rush. And I’m like, that’s retarded. That’s where it’s, we’re stupid enough to go to Dartmouth linger, strike. You’re one of them I can tell, or I’m just not hungry or you secretly want to starve yourself.

What growth does it? I know those girls give a fuck about the janitors. They just don’t want to look like they’re indirect, sick. None of them, not one. So what are they doing on the line at nine on a Sunday? The only thing those those are scared about is looking like they care. It’s just a mirror demonstration.

If he’s their fucking white, stupid, suburban Jewish guilt, high and shoe, it. 

Todd: Oh the whole time. And I got really sick of seeing her on the screen and I’m not often that way I can put up with a lot, but I really couldn’t wait for that character to go away. 

Craig: Yeah. And I’m not sure who that actress is. I don’t remember her name.

I, I think that she’s not famous for acting. I think that she’s a musician. I believe. And her IMDV page. She’s got a few credits, but not very many. So, you know, maybe she’s just, you know, a little bit out of her element. I think that they initially, when they cast her, they kind of made a big deal out of it.

I think that she was kind of a name again. I don’t really know who she is, but I’m old. So, uh, who knows, but did 

Todd: you ever even catch her character’s name now? Either? 

Craig: And I was really. Pretty relieved when she didn’t end up going on 

Todd: the trip with them. At the same time, I was, I was shocked that she didn’t because I thought I was thinking to myself, Oh, this is going to be just like this kind of movie where somehow she’s going to get roped in the one woman who was cynical about her roommate getting wrapped up in these causes.

That’s the other thing that I thought was really stupid about the beginning of the movie was. It seemed like these college kids are obsessed with causes. Right. And I know that that is part of the point that he was trying to make in the movie, but it came across really forced and fake. Like no college kid is spending their day and their night.

I don’t care if you’re a freshmen, uh, obsessed with. The people who are petitioning outside of their window, and then very interested in the leader of that group and looking at them and glancing at them from afar in the cafeteria and out and about it seems like every conversation they have is revolving around, uh, how stupid it is, how gay it is to be involved in some cause.

And not a particular cause it’s just the whole notion of being involved in activism. Well, 

Craig: I really, I, I really think that that is the social commentary that he was going for. I think that he was trying to be critical of. The part of our culture, probably particularly youth culture, you know, college aged kids who claim to have these really noble motives for their cause, but really that, you know, that annoying girl, the annoying roommate in the beginning, somebody, she said something about this group who is protesting on campus for health insurance, for their custodians.

The group is called act, don’t think act, but the girl says these people only care. About looking like they care. And I think that that is a big part of what he’s trying to get at that these. And really, I guess our main character Justine kind of has really some naive notion that she can really make a difference, but as it turns out, the leaders of the group really do only care about the publicity and really do only care about.

You know how many reshared tweets they get or, you know, making the front page of Reddit because of their activism or whatever the cause really is secondary, but it’s a good ploy for getting their faces on the banner. 

Todd: Yeah. And I agree. And I, and I can see clearly that that’s what he was trying to do, but didn’t you feel like it was clunky and forced to the way you were ham-fisted this down.

This girl. I think we both laughed out loud when this girl Justine who’s clearly on the fence, it’s like, she’s curious about activism and she wants to get involved, but it’s like, she has no experience with it, but there’s an allure cause she’s a freshman and it’s not quite clear what the allure is until she gets in that classroom.

Where it’s must be an anthropology class or something. And the teacher is talking about female genital mutilation. She’s describing it. She’s holding up a tool that shows that they’ve got pictures going and immediately she gets incensed. It’s like, ah, now I’ve found the cause that I can really get pissed off about, she raises her hand and she’s like, somebody needs to do, we need to get the lawyers in on this.

And she says insane. 

Craig: There’s an ambassador in East 44th street, who should be doing something about this. My father is a lawyer 

Todd: at the UN of course he, why wouldn’t he be? But okay. As clunky as that was to slip that in and it does end up being important to the story that her father is. So if your father is a lawyer for the UN.

How are you coming from a position where you don’t know anything about activism? And this seems like such a foreign thing to you. It doesn’t even jive with what her character’s background would be. I mean, 

Craig: I guess it’s supposed to highlight her immaturity. And I think that that was something that, again, a little bit more social commentary, you know, she goes, and this, this class must just be kind of a survey because you know, she, the professor talks about female mutilation for.

Like three or four minutes, and then now let’s move on to the ant problem. Like here’s, here’s the problems in Africa, you know, just real quick, run them off. But you know, her response, obviously from our cultural perspective, we are going to have a very negative response to the concept of female, uh, female genital mutilation, but.

I think that what some people fail to believe, and I’m certainly not supporting the practice at all, but it’s something that’s ingrained in their culture, you know, to, to just have a knee jerk reaction where, Oh, these are savages who we need to civilize, you know, that’s, that’s a really imperialistic. View right.

And, you know, that’s something that’s been explored in film and literature in a much more intellectual and, and interesting way, you know, like heart of darkness or, or even apocalypse now or something like that. Uh, and. I, I guess, I think what he’s trying to do is, is kind of highlight our ignorance and our no centricity.

I don’t know, but you’re right. It does. It just, it’s very heavy handed. It’s like, okay, we have to establish this in the beginning so that we can just get them there and start chopping people up. Um, you know, it doesn’t really. Seem like much like with the students in the film, it doesn’t really seem like the cause is really at the forefront.

True. 

Todd: Well, and that’s the thing, you know, these cannibal films started out really making a social statement. That was almost the opposite of this film. That, whereas this film seems to be the main messages don’t get involved in causes because you’re stupid and you can’t actually do anything. The message of the earlier films.

You know, we’ve both seen cannibal Holocaust, which documents a group of people who, and we’re going to have to do that on the show sometime. Right. But I mean, they’ll just, if it is, it’s a group of people who go into make ostensibly, make a documentary. But ended up treating the natives pretty horribly.

And as a result, the natives turned the tables on them and it sort of shows that they’re out of their element, but in a way that they’re being imperialists, they’re not trying to save these natives. They’re not activists, they’re jerks and they’re getting their comeuppance. This is a movie where people are genuinely trying to be, to make a difference in the world and much like.

The tribes who are, you can say the general mutilation is awful, but it’s just ingrained in their culture. They don’t know that it’s medically, you know, dismissive and doesn’t actually do anything the same thing with these kids. They’re naive, but that’s what you are when you’re a freshman in high school or college.

And that comes from a good place. So I almost see the message of this movie as a really crappy message in a sense. I realize it’s just a framework for showing us some Gore. And, but if he’s trying to make a statement with this movie, it’s kind of a crummy statement, I think, um, it’s not fair. It’s not fair to these characters who are genuinely trying to do some good things to show that.

Yeah, don’t do that because, uh, you’re so naive. You’re going to get yourself 

Craig: killed. Right. Well, and, and I guess I, I guess part of the message is. Leave well enough alone. It’s really none of your concern. You know, these, these people are, you know, in the end spoilers, always guys. Uh, but Justine is the only one to, to make it out.

I mean, this is a big group of, of activists. I couldn’t even keep track of all their names. What 10, probably on them, at least it’s another one of 

Todd: those too many characters in the beginning movie, but then you realize it’s just because they want to kill off half of them right 

Craig: away, and you don’t have to care about them and you don’t, or at least I didn’t find myself really caring about any of the characters except potentially Justine.

But even she, when, when she finally does escape, when she comes back, she fabricates a story. So that the natives end up looking peaceful and helpful as opposed to brutal, I guess. So that there’ll be left alone, like, so that there won’t be any retribution for the death of. Young American students, 

Todd: that she can feel that she did make a difference.

And that is her version of, of activism. Now that she’s come back, like she’s accomplishing the goal they set out to do, but in a very twisted Twilight Zoney way at the end. 

Craig: Yeah. I guess it’s, it’s, it’s odd. It’s not execution. It didn’t 

Todd: work. I mean, it didn’t work for me. I don’t know. I, I don’t require that my movies like have a moral message.

Right. But when you have a movie that seems to be trying to wrap a moral message around it. That’s gotta be solid. And this to me was on shaky 

Craig: ground. Yeah. I can agree with that a hundred percent. It almost, it might’ve been less hokey if they had not tried to push that so hard. Um, that’s a good point. I think that if we had just, okay, these are young college activists, it’s not like that’s a rarity, you know, that you find that on any college campus.

If we could just kind of appreciated their motives. Maybe seeing the flaws of their perspective, but not have it so heavy handed. I think maybe it would have come across better, but you’re right. I don’t, you know, I’m not going out looking for horror movies that have some kind of deep message, but when the attempt is made and it falls flat, You notice.

Yeah. And I think that’s kind of the case here. Yeah. 

Todd: Well, it doesn’t definitely makes it stand out a bit. I appreciate he was trying to do something a little different. Clearly. This is an homage to those films. Yeah. 

Craig: He was a huge fan of those films and this, he was really inspired by a cannibal Holocaust to do this film.

And in fact, the original shooting title of cannibal Holocaust was the green Inferno. So obviously he’s trying to pay tribute to this. John rhe. They’re really kind of just came and went in a heartbeat, you know, sometime in the late seventies, early eighties, these CA there were a handful of these cannibal movies and they were really sensationalized.

The, the creator or director, I suppose, of, uh, cannibal Holocaust was. Well, his plan was to try to fool people into thinking it was an actual documentary and it worked so much so that he was brought before a judge to be questioned about the disappearance of these actors or the people in his thing. And then he produced them.

He had asked them to lay low, um, to keep it believable. Um, but he produced them and of course, then everything was fine. But then, you know, there was. Cannibal ferox and then a few other, a little bit less well-known the genre just kind of faded away. Yeah, most part 

Todd: that’s surprising too, because usually what these exploitation genres, they tend to have long legs, even if the movies aren’t that great.

You take something and you go with it. We got zombies still going on. We got vampire still going on. We have all of these things really in the horror genre that have lasted for decades. And that came and went like a flash in the pan. And I was asking myself why today. And maybe after seeing this movie, I just realized that there really aren’t a lot of places you can go with it.

Right. What do you do beyond. Naive Western nerd meets their ancient counterparts or whatever, and either tries to be the imperialist and come and invade them and gets their comeuppance. What do you do with gray on that? You know, you really don’t. So you’re going to see the same movie over and over and over again.

And even that gets a, you know, you can’t 

Craig: do anything new. Right. And like I said, you know, once they get to the jungle, I mean, that’s very much just what it is. I mean, they’re, they’re captured and then there’s and gosh, there’s, there’s lots of things I want to talk about, but, um, 

Todd: let’s go back to when they get to the jungle.

Cause the first thing is they, they do their duty. Right, 

Craig: right. There, there is a plan. The Alejandro is the main, uh, leader of this group act. And he’s very serious and very brooding and really just an ass, super pretentious. But he has this Intel, I suppose, about this company that wants to harvest natural gas from underneath this tribe in the rain forest group.

Have you ever had fantasies of saving and dying drive?

it’s protecting them from encroaching civilization. Well, an opportunity has come up to turn that fantasy into reality. For those of you who care enough to join us in two weeks, an untouched jungle in the ProVia and Amazon will be destroyed forever. And so will the native society. The companies want the natural gas in the ground under the villages.

So the GPS location. Bulldoze the homes and kill the natives ancient tribes seen on the Herrera. Liam says from satellite photos will be gone forever.

So what’s the plan marching through the jungle and starve yourself.

You must be a 

Todd: freshmen. 

Craig: Yes. Why because only a freshmen would speak with such and such lettuce, you can leave now. And so he has set it up so that they will go where the people are dozing the rainforest and they’ll just do a demonstration. Now they say it’s going to be a peaceful demonstration. But they ended up blowing up.

I mean, the first thing they do to draw attention to themselves is set up a bomb. You know, that’s not what I would be doing if I were confronting a foreign militia, but they go and they, they chained themselves in the protest. And really, as far as they know at the time, the protest is 

Todd: successful, right.

Their scheme is that they all have cameras. And even though you can’t get a cell signal anywhere out in the jungle, he is set up. Or somebody has set up a, some kind of satellite network or some kind of network that’s going 

Craig: to be to 

Todd: satellite and that’s it. All right. That’s going to be around that area.

So their guns are their cell phones is what they say. And even though this construction company has a militia, that’s could potentially turn on them because they’re live streaming all their cameras to the world. That’s supposed to save them. And it does 

Craig: well. And, and that is very timely. I mean, with, you know, handheld cameras in everybody’s pocket, you know, we’re seeing all kinds of.

Things that may be lurked in the shadows in years before that we didn’t have such access access to. And so I, you know, that’s, that’s kind of realistic really. Um, well, even the 

Todd: turn about natural gas, usually it’s cutting on the rainforest for the wood, which is such a data thing. All right. That makes a little more sense, I guess, but it seems, I mean, with fracking, I think you don’t need to do that, but right.

I 

Craig: mean, it, it, so it appears that their protest is successful, but what our main character Justine finds out is that she’s been upon in all of this, the reason that they recruited her and they did, she didn’t, she was interested in their activity, but they. Specifically recruited her because she had mentioned in that anthropology class, her father was a lawyer for the UN.

So they bring her her along so that they can intentionally put her in peril and say, this is a daughter of someone who works for the UN and it works. But of course she had no idea that she was playing this role and really putting herself at very. Serious risk. And so then she’s ticked off and they get back in the plane and it seems like everything has gone well, they’re celebrating in the plane, but then the plane crashes and the plane crash scene was kind of cool, at least.

Yeah, 

Todd: it was, it was fun. It was like one of those where you actually get to see people turning around upside down as they’re twirling from inside the car and a guy’s kind of puking all over himself. And it was a prop plane, which was weird because there was kind of an explosion from one of the wings, which.

I was thinking, why would that be a later on? We figure out it may be their plane was sabotaged, but at the time that was a question that kind of came up 

Craig: in my head, right? The engine just blows like out of nowhere, there’s no warning. It’s just from the propeller starts shooting flames and smoke. And 

Todd: they’re now in the jungle, the only phone that could potentially reach somebody is this.

GPS enabled satellite phone that they 

Craig: brought. Yeah, I guess it’s like part of the plane equipment, I guess. I don’t 

Todd: know. They kind of get their heads on straight. They are looking for this and that is when, uh, some people show up who happened to be the tribe and. Start killing them. Right. 

Craig: And the reason, or at least the reason that’s provided now, the tribe is just established as being cannibalistic.

Um, which, from what I read is not particularly realistic because there are no native cannibal tribes left in that area. Yeah. But what all at once they’ve been captured. And they’re taken back to the native village. Alejandro tells them the reason they’re doing this because they think that we’re the enemy.

When they had done their protest, they had dressed themselves in the uniform. Of the construction crew that they were protesting. So these natives, of course they don’t share a language at all. So these natives assume that these are the members. Yeah. So I mean, it kind of makes sense that they would act violently towards them.

And that was one of the things I’m a little bit conflicted and I’m really interested to see what you think because the. Actors who play this native tribe are not actors. No. Uh, this is an actual, I guess, Peruvian, uh, native tribe that they, the film crew, you know, went deep into the Peruvian rainforest and filmed with this actual tribe.

And, and in some regards, I just think that is. So cool, because we get a little bit of a glimpse, even though I’m sure it’s fictionalized, even though I’m sure that, you know, there was, there was, I’m sure there was a set dresser and a makeup artist and all that stuff, but these are actual native people on one hand.

I think that’s really cool. On the other hand, I asked myself. Is this exploitive. Yeah. 

Todd: What do you think? That’s a good question. I mean, he did take up a page right out of DDoS playbook because he did the exact same thing. When he went to film a cannibal Holocaust. In fact, you can notice. That the natives in that film who are doing some of the more kind of brutal there’s, there’s a rape scene with a rock in that movie.

That’s kind of gross. And you can tell that you can tell, he looks so different from everybody else. He seems like a westerner dressed up in makeup. So. You could see that even Deodato was a little uncomfortable involving those, those folks in everything that he filmed. I don’t know if that were the case in this movie.

I was very interested to know if the tribal leaders in this film were actual natives or if they were actors dressed up, did you have, 

Craig: well, I was a little bit confused cause I think I read and I think that what I read was that these people who portrayed the tribal leaders were. Actual tribal people. But then I think that I also read that Roth had either worked or consulted with them before.

And I don’t know that those puzzle pieces don’t come together in my head. So I’m not entirely sure. What I do know is that they approached these people and. When they try to explain to them what they were asking them to do, there was just utter confusion because they didn’t even have any concept of what a film was.

Um, and so, and I don’t know how I feel about this either. What Ross did was he brought in a TV. And played for them, cannibal Holocaust, 

Todd: you know, it’s getting right to the point and it’s being totally upfront and honest with them about what they’re going to do, 

Craig: I suppose so well, and apparently they loved 

Todd: it and they thought it was a comedy.

He thought it was 

Craig: hilarious. And they were right on board. I think I read something that almost a hundred percent of the tribe signed on to do this, including the children. There’s very small children in it. And these are. Uh, native tribal children. And, uh, it, it is effective. I mean, the, the visual is, is effective.

I mean, these really do look like because they are, um, native peoples, uh, and, and I guess in a, in a way that the film kind of has that going for it. I mean, that’s kind of one of the 

Todd: positive it’ll authenticity, some kind right. I think where the authenticity obviously breaks down is that this isn’t a portrayal of how they actually are an app.

And that’s where we start to get a comfortable. And we wonder, are you taking advantage of these people? Because even though they’ve agreed to be in this film, do they actually understand. How their portrayal in this film is going to be taken in and represented it, interpreted by the 

Craig: world, right? The image that they’re projecting of themselves.

And it would make sense that they wouldn’t understand that concept. Uh, they, you know, I, I doubt that they even would understand the concept of mass media, that other people might be seeing this. And I don’t mean to be culturally insensitive. I. I would just assume that without that kind of exposure to our culture, that they just wouldn’t know.

Um, but I don’t know. I mean, what I do know is that, uh, they enjoy doing it PR you know, apparently based on. Reports so much so that, uh, after filming was done, they approached the, think it was the set designer or something along those lines and offered him or her a two year old child as a sign of their gratitude.

Um, and of course the production designer declined, but, uh, you know, it appears. That they were on board. And, and I want to believe that because I don’t want to believe that these people were being taken advantage of 

Todd: if the people see it in the way, and maybe they won’t see it exactly this way, because they don’t have the context, but perhaps this was in their hearts.

That well, we’re just acting and that’s sort of how every actor is. Somebody’s got to play the bad guy. It doesn’t make them a bad guy. People have to portray horrible things that happen in film and stories in order to be told, have to portray horrible things happening to people. But it doesn’t mean that the filmmakers or the actors involved condone that.

In fact, oftentimes the message is quite opposite, right? This still muddies it a little bit, because what really is the message in regards to. The tribe. There’s a part of me that just wants to say, well, Hey, if they were enthused about it and they were fully up front with the kind of film they’re making, they showed them cannibal Holocaust.

And it’s certainly not cannibal Holocaust, but it’s right in the same line. Yeah. Um, and they were cool with it and they seemed to understand what they were doing and they were grateful for it afterwards. There’s a part of me that wants to say nobody’s really being heard or exploited here that may be a moderate audience is sophisticated enough to realize that this is not an accurate portrayal of his tribe.

And therefore. We’re all cool. And it’s not going to get 

Craig: misinterpreted and it’s, it’s not a documentary and it’s not trying to present itself as such as cannibal Holocaust did. Correct. Um, so, you know, it’s fiction whether or not a viewer comes to the determination that it’s exploitive or not. I really don’t think that Eli Roth was trying to exploit these people.

In fact, I really think that his intended message was that they are not the bad guy. You know, they are just going about doing what they do, doing what they do. And it’s only because of the interference of outsiders. The bad things happen to those outsiders. You know, they’ve inserted themselves where they’re not wanted, where they’re not needed.

They’re disrupting a life, they’re disrupting a culture. Uh, and in the end, I think that we are meant to at least in some way, be sympathetic towards the native people and see that really. These other people as good intentioned, as they may have been kind of brought this on themselves in that 

they 

Todd: were Lynn in over their head.

That that’s where I feel like the moral message kind of gets muddied. If it were the construction workers, getting their comeuppance, if it were, that message would be extremely clear in this case, these kids, least we think save this tribe by their actions against the construction workers, you know, and they were on this plane.

It was only through. Just a series of sad coincidences that they ended up in the hands of this tribe, again, over some mistaken identity. And then the, you know, the idea is while you guys were always in over your head, and this is your comeuppance, it’s not really fair. It doesn’t have to be, I guess, horror movies are usually not fair, right?

They’re showing sort of an evil and that’s what happens. But in this case, there is no evil, as you just explained, the tribe is doing their thing. These kids we’re trying to help them. And now they’re the ones who are going to get punished and, uh, Maybe that’s why in the end, she kind of comes around and ends up helping them anyway, 

Craig: I guess so, and I think that we need to mention the fact that really the vast majority of these, these young kids really did have the best of intentions and they really thought that they were helping, as it turns out Alejandro the main guy for him, it was entirely exploitive.

This mission that they’re going on, he knows that. In fact, it’s funny. Yeah, it was a sham. It was a sham, but you didn’t stop anything. We just delayed it by a day or two. What are you talking about? It totally PR stunt Carlos was hired by a competing company to stop them from reaching the village first. So we did, he gets paid in our organization known worldwide.

You know, how many people are gonna join us up there. This. Now we can make real change. You of, you do have to feel sorry for the ones that really thought that they were helping. They didn’t have negative motives. All Alejandro wanted was publicity. He wanted to get their group’s image out there so that they could draw in more members.

And so then that they could really make a difference. Um, but it’s, you know, on his part, it’s just entirely 

Todd: ego and that was. My second disappointment of the movie, I thought that was so convoluted. Uh, there are so many holes in this plot to go to some random college, somewhere, scrounge up a bunch of random members.

Somehow convince them to get into this a little over their heads when really they should’ve known what they were getting into to do this elaborate stunt. Why couldn’t you just recruit some locals to do the same thing?  who they were. Didn’t matter, right? It was that they had cell phones and I find it really hard to believe that even that the fact that this girl was the daughter of a UN lawyer.

Was really necessary to get them to stop shooting. I sort of felt like those guys, they knew they were being filmed and they knew they were being uploaded. It didn’t matter who they shot, their heads would roll if they started opening fire on this group of protestors. 

Craig: I think the world. Yeah. I think that what Alejandro his idea was was that.

Because she was the daughter of somebody who worked for the United nations. That would cause more international uproar. I don’t know if that’s the case or not, but I think that’s what they were 

Todd: well, that’s true. But wouldn’t, they have done this anyway. Even if she had decided to join the groups or they would have it wasn’t critical to the plan.

Yeah, to me, it was, it was a twist that was kind of interesting and kind of nice and it gives them a reason. To think about waiting it out there, which you have to do in a movie like this. You’ve got to create a situation where you’ve created choices for these characters when you’re locked in a cage and that’s what happens.

They grabbed them all the five or six leftover people. Throw them in a cage and cut up the fat die 

Craig: immediately and cook them up and eat them and 

Todd: killed them up in a smoker. And it’s, it’s kind of funny, uh, in a way you’re in a cage, uh, your choices are really to break out. There is nothing else you can possibly do, but try to break out because you know, you’re going to die.

However, if you have a very real choice to stay there, because help might be on its way, meaning this rival company is going to come in anyway, uh, in three days, Now you have some more dramatic conflict, should they stay? Should they try to break out now breaking out is inherently more risky. Than it 

Craig: used to be.

Right. Well, and that’s the thing I liked that they portrayed it in such a way that it wasn’t just outwitting the dumb natives. You know, these, these natives were very efficient. You know, they, they had guards on them all the time. They couldn’t build a 

Todd: good cage. These guys just need to put a few more poles across that cage and we wouldn’t have had to have a garden.

Right. 

Craig: I mean, but it wasn’t meant, it wasn’t meant for people. It was their hog cage, you know, they cleared the hogs out before they put the people in. I don’t think hogs are going to be crawling out the top. That’s 

Todd: a good point. I forget that. Yes. 

Craig: And you know, as far as. Plot is concerned once they get there.

Like you said immediately, the fact I wish, you know, you totally see this coming. Obviously he’s the one who’s got the most meat. He’s the one they’ll take out first, but he’s also one of the only likable characters in the beginning of the disease. So it’s kind of sad to see him go and they don’t really hold back on the Gore.

There’s quite a bit of Gore. I mean, this guy, they hold him down. Uh, and the tribe would I, what I interpreted as being the tribe leader was was that, uh, 

Todd: a woman, I think it was a woman and the man was the other person with the bone kind of thing. 

Craig: It seems to be like the primary Hunter, the leader of the militia or whatever.

Todd: She was like a witch 

Craig: doctor almost. Um, she digs his eyes out with their bare fingers and. Uh, eats them right there, cuts his tongue out and then they just completely dismember him all the while he’s still alive. Which to me, see, it rang as unrealistic. I mean, if you’ve got both of your legs chopped off, one of your arms, your eyeballs gouged out your tongue, cut out your lease.

At the very least going to be in shock and probably not, you know, kind of still riding around. But if, if that’s what you’re looking for this, I don’t think it’ll disappoint you. Um, the core 

Todd: is, is coming to a cannibal movie, wanting to see a person getting cut up and eaten. You will not be 

Craig: disappointed.

Right, exactly. Right. Cause you do get it. Now. I will say cannibal Holocaust. Made me a little uncomfortable because of how real it looked and how real it seemed. And now in that movie, some of it was real, there was, um, some animal mutilation that was actually, they actually filmed using live. 

Todd: And honestly that is probably the most controversial thing about that film.

Right, right. And that was a clever thing to do. Not it’s morally repugnant, but it was a clever thing to do in that mixing that live, that real death with the fake death, let EHRs. Lends a certain era of, uh, not legitimacy, but one of what’s the word I’m looking for authenticity to the human death, that he didn’t go there with this film.

He couldn’t know it and you wouldn’t want to. Right. But what I 

Craig: was getting at with the effects here, I mean, they’re, I assume they were adequate, but there was something and maybe it’s because he showed too much that it didn’t seem. Real? No. I mean, it seemed like decent effects. I mean, it was very bloody, but there was one point in particular when, um, one of the tribes women was preparing the torso of this big guy, whatever his name was.

Uh, and it was completely apparent that it was a complete, really hollowed out shell licit right up. Right. Uh, and it just moves with the slightest touch. It moves. I mean, this is a big, heavy guy. Torso 

Todd: would have been a hundred pounds 

Craig: at least. So there was a little bit, I don’t know, uh, it, it pulled me out a little bit and made it less scary and less effective because even though, you know, you go into these movies, you know, it’s not real, but when it’s visibly obvious that it’s not real, it kind of pulls you out.

Todd: It’s hokey. And, um, no, I agree with you completely. I, I felt the same way watching that watching most of the Gore effects, actually the same effects were probably more effective back when the footage was more grimy and gritty and right. But, yeah, so it did, it took me out of it too. The other thing that took me out of this movie, and it was just a distracting element, but it had to do with the filmmaking was that this movie was obviously shot on video.

And the reason you can tell is that the dynamic range is terrible when they’re in the boat or in the woods, the sky is completely blown out. You know, all the highlights are bright white. You can never get both shots. One light in the same scene. It, to me, it was so distracting. And it’s a shame because this environment is so lush and beautiful, right.

You’re shooting in the jungle. I’m not one to get into the film versus video bail. I really don’t care. It’s to me, I think, shoot it on video. That’s fine. But it’s a shame when you have this opportunity for beautiful pictures and beautiful images in this environment. And you’re shooting on a medium where the water everywhere, the water, the water just looks muddy because everywhere it glistens is just a bright white and kind of runs together, or you get a shot of the side of the mountain or whatever, and they haven’t filtered out the sky.

And brought it down. So the mountain looks great and stuff, but there’s the sky is just this bright white, you know, I could show you examples. Well, know what I’m talking about, but you know what you’d know? I 

Craig: mean, no, anything about the technical side of it, but I did notice particularly in the beginning that, you know, the colors were very, very bright.

I mean, it felt. Oversaturated. Yeah. I didn’t think it looked bad. I mean, I, there was a crispness to it that I. Thought was okay. Um, and maybe I was just taken in by kind of the natural beauty. And again, I think that’s one of the strengths of the films that they really did shoot on location. And it is really a gorgeous backdrop to set this film against.

So I’ll take your word on the technical stuff, but it didn’t bother me as much. I didn’t notice the really super bright colors, particularly in the beginning and the clothing that they were wearing. And it was very bright. It was, I mean, this whole film is it almost entirely takes place during the day, right?

You’re right. And, uh, it very, very bright throughout from there. I mean, they’re basically just. Held captive there. They’re waiting after Alejandro reveals the truth. That there’s really going to be another construction crew coming. They’re kind of just waiting it out. However, there’s one girl who can’t just sit and wait.

And I guess before that, we should say there are three girls there, uh, including our main girl, Justine almost immediately. I think it’s the morning of the third. The second day that they’re there, they take all the girls out and they strip them. And of course we know that they had had that exposition where it was all about the female genital mutilation.

So we know what’s going on. They strip them from the waist down, the witch doctor, lady, or whatever she is. Kind of, I guess, examines them now. I didn’t really understand what was going on here because she she’s got this kind of like hooky wall kind of thing. And she appears now you don’t see it in the direct shot, but it appears that she.

Penetrates their genitals. Um, and she does that to the first two girls and they seem very uncomfortable as obviously they would be, but not necessarily in terrible pain. So it doesn’t seem that she’s trying to hurt them at the moment, but then. She goes to Justine last. And when she removes herself, there’s blood now, did you take that to mean that she was missing?

Yes, 

Todd: that’s how I took it and it took me a while to figure it, to put that together to, uh, that’s really the only explanation, the only other explanation is she caught her somehow, but she kind of it in the air and everybody’s sort of . Strange, but, 

Craig: okay. So right. And she marks her on the forehead and they take the other two girls back to the boys, but they take, just seen a way into a big hut.

Right. They, they blow some magic, Dustin, her face and she passes out and they take her into this hut when she eventually she does eventually come back, but she’s been painted ceremoniously painted. And so they, they believe that they know what’s going to happen. I don’t know. I have no idea what the ministration part had to do with it, but here’s my 

Todd: guess.

And this is a lousy guests, but my guess was that since we learned that this was a right of womanhood, My guess is that you don’t get female castration until you start menstruating. And so she was checking them to see which of them was menstruating in case the other two hadn’t started their period, but they’re both old enough, right.

That they would, I don’t know, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense because this is the enemy. Right. And why would they be doing 

Craig: this at all at first? And this is, this is terrible to say again, I’m not trying to be culturally insensitive, but at first I thought the tribes. Uh, the, the witch doctor person was a man she’s androgynous.

Yeah. Until the end, um, where you get some side views of her and it appears that she has female breasts, but at first I thought it was a man. And I thought that maybe he was selecting one of them to kind of be a concubine or something along those, you did worry 

Todd: that maybe she was just going to get massively raped in that cabin.

And it didn’t appear to be the case. No, 

Craig: but I still don’t understand really what the purpose was. You know, they, one of the girls, so there’s three girls. Two of them. The other two who are not just seeing our lesbian couple, one of them is kind of the tough I can get all the girls I want lesbian. And the other one is kind of the I’m sweet and naive, you know, college, freshmen, lesbian, um, 

Todd: you know, those two types 

Craig: and, uh, 

Todd: and, uh, and the one 

Craig: girl’s got a lot of tattoos on the tough one.

Right? Yeah. And so she decides that because she. Had run track that she would be able to escape. So she tries to escape and it appears at first that she does, but then later on the natives give the remaining prisoners some food and it appears just to be vegetables. I think they say it’s like boiled scraps or something like that.

I don’t know they eat it. Um, and the other, the, the blonde girl, the girlfriend gets to the bottom of her bowl and there’s blood in the bottom. And she looks out and she sees the native children. Playing with scraps of skin, with the tattoos of her girlfriend on them. And so then, 

Todd: well, there’s not just blood that I think has one of her tattoos, 

Craig: was it in the bowl?

It’s all flat. 

Todd: And it, again, it was hard to tell, but you had to kind of put to, yeah, you’re 

Craig: seeing now that you say so it makes sense. I was thinking it was a design in the bottom of the boat, but you’re absolutely right. It was one of her tattoos. And so that was kind of funny, actually, it was. And so she, the remaining girl that breaks that old she’d been served in, in slices, her own.

So none of the women are ever killed by the tribe, except for when they first crashed. There’s one woman who tries to approach them who gets killed. And then the woman who tried to escape. So I don’t know if they were planning on keeping all of the women or if, if Justine had been marked for something special.

I have no idea, I guess. In the end. It doesn’t really matter, but I was questioning what was it specifically about her aside from the fact that she was menstruating that made them give her special attention? Yeah, 

Todd: that would, that’d be the only thing to make sense. As you have to imagine some sort of cultural thing where they don’t just kill all their enemies, they take the women and if they qualify.

They recruit them into the tribe or they keep them as a concubine or a child driver or something. And that would be probably the best explanation for why then they would go through this marker for eventual. Right. Genital mutilation. 

Craig: Right. And then, you know, from that point, 

Todd: but what they do though, to the, to the dead girl in the Oh, right.

I can’t believe, I almost forgot that because this is the hokiest part on the site. The one of the guys earlier on the plane scores, a bag of marijuana and he still had it tucked in his shoe. And so. Their idea is to take this bag of merit. This is a little bag of pot and stuff it down this girl, this dead girl’s throat with may use a stick and everything to get it way down into her stomach.

The idea being that when they put her in this smoker, it’s going to get 

Craig: like a giant pot brownie. And we’re, we’re sitting here. So stupid. It’s the dumbest thing. It’s never going to work. And not only that, but like it was in like a Ziploc bag and they shoved it down her throat in the Ziploc bag. I would think if they wanted the drug, the THC to permeate, they would have at least opened it and like put it in there.

I really 

Todd: want to season the meat you’d want to raise like one of those, a spice and jets it’s really to get it down in the exact hole. But of course that happens, you know, even though this smoker is by one hot in this rather. Large complex. Everybody’s gathered around it. And I guess they all inhale enough of the smoke.

They eat enough of her flesh 

Craig: that they all get legally fall on their ass dumb. 

Todd: Yeah. And, uh, that gives the others, uh, two of the others, a chance to escape it’s, uh, Justine and Daniel. Right, right. They escape. And as the other guy, I don’t ever caught him, I never caught his name. 

Craig: All I could ever figure 

Todd: out, tries to get out.

Alejandro picks up a. One of these mad, magical poison darts, and stabs him with it so that he passes out instantly right. And falls down into the cage and basically says to them, uh, well, I’m not going to stay back in this cage by myself or else. I will totally get eaten. I guess the idea is that they can’t all leave.

Craig: I have no idea. I still don’t under. I still have no idea what I thought he said was something like, if I’m just going to wait here to be saved, I can’t be alone. Because there was never any suggestion, as far as I saw that they weren’t planning on helping him escape. 

Todd: Yeah. Well, to me, my thought was cause, cause the cage was tall enough.

They had to hoist people up. That naturally, there’s nobody there to hoist that last person. And so one of them was going to have to stay Alejandro. My interpretation of that was that he said, if I’m the only guy left in this cage, they’re going to kill me for sure. Whereas if there two of us left, I’ve gotten by some time by some time.

And that’s why he, that still doesn’t make sense because. He’s such a Dick. He could have just insisted on going first and left the other kid behind the bore. We saw later how he himself lifted himself and hoisted himself to the top of the cage. He could have just done that and they would have lifted them the rest of the way.

Craig: It makes no sense. And the more that we talk about it, the more I think of other things that make no sense, the character of Alejandro is just an ass at one point. It’s right after I think that the blonde girl had slit her own throat. He just starts jerking off doing, if we don’t want to end up like the otters, you’d be wise to do the same thing.

It’s like, hi, I’m not psychotic when your body’s under stress. The only way to think clearly is to find a release. Like 

Todd: it wasn’t just that it was the dumb, it 

Craig: was so stupid. I had no idea what they were. I mean, he had already been established as a total ass, but that’s just like, why did, was that even 

Todd: in there even any other dumb thing that was in there was when the girl had to.

The massive diarrhea. She was on the corner and I’m thinking, Oh my gosh, how juvenile? I 

Craig: know. And it’s totally, you know, fart noises and, um, and we’ll tie it for like a minute. And then of course the native kids are like waving their noses and laughing. Yeah. And see, that’s the kind of thing where if you’re going to go there, go all the way.

But if you’re going to just pepper, those moments in, it just seems stupid. It just like. We don’t need this. It throws off 

Todd: the tone. You got these horrible things happening in this pretty serious situation. Uh, and it’s played that way. But then there are these weird moments of not even good comedy, no juvenile, not even good.

Juvenile comedy just shoved in like pot down a dead girls. 

Craig: Right. And then when the stoner guy comes to a couple of the natives are huddling over him, giggling and he, you know, tries to kind of entertain them. Um, but then they start trying to take bites out of it. And he’s like, damn, the munchies.

Sorry. I can’t. 

Todd: That was another part that just took me completely. That just made me throw my hands up in the air. This movie. Now they’re sort of zombie cannibals. Now they’ll just eat someone alive without going through the preparation process that they’d done for the last couple people. Uh, they just bite people 

Craig: and they did.

They just swarmed her. Everybody ate him 

Todd: alive, the kids and everything. It was straight out of Dawn of the dead. Yeah, it was just like that scene where the guy’s getting ripped up. And I thought, Oh my gosh, it was really 

Craig: silly, dumb Justine. And one of the other guys, I don’t remember his name. They get away, they run away, they see smokes.

They assume that’s the construction crew. But, um, she has to kind of jump over this little part of the river to, for them to keep going. And she steps into it. Not realizing it. Steep. And she falls in and gets swept away. And that I had read about, and it was kind of scary to watch because I read that the actress nearly drowned.

I mean, she was really in the river, uh, and really struggling. And it wasn’t until the filmmakers realized that her cries for help were real cries for help. And they, they went to ADA and some, they, what I read is that some of that made it into the film and it looked scary. It looked like she was drowning.

It looked like she was really struggling. But, uh, so they get them back. Okay. He, the guy that she’s with helps her back out, they go to the plane where there’s a total nod to Hannibal cannibal Holocaust. So 

Todd: hard to say movies. Yeah. Separately. Right? Hannibal’s not in cannibal hall. 

Craig: Exactly. But a little homage there where the people who were killed on the crash are now impaled on poles, kind of as a warning.

That’s one of the most famous images from a cannibal 

Todd: Holocaust is the most awesome. And. Just looks so real. It looks so 

Craig: real. They had to prove in court that it wasn’t real. They had to demonstrate how they did it, but then they get recaptured and she again gets prepared for the genital mutilation ceremony.

Uh, she’s repainted, she’s tied up. Um, they. Tie up the guy that she was with on a pole and smear him with something which Louis ants, which kind of eat him alive. But eventually throughout the course of the film, just seeing, has been trying to make a connection with this young native boy. Um, yeah, she’s 

Todd: a flutist and she has a little.

Flute a new necklace. Her mother gave her, well, it was used, what was it? Her grandmother’s smelted down silver, something like that. So it’s, I mean, everything you could possibly do to make this a precious family heirloom this, is it aside from putting a curse on it that she should never take. 

Craig: You know, she’s looking at the kid for help and he’s kind of looking on sympathetically, but he doesn’t do anything.

The wish doctor comes out. She starts to perform the genital mutilation ceremony. But then there’s a commotion. And as it turns out, the destruction crew has arrived vitally, right? And so everybody in the tribe has to run to fend them off, leaving Justine, still tied up, but not in as immediate danger. And eventually the young boy does, he comes over and he cuts her free and she knocks out.

You know, the woman who had been tending to her and she goes and tries to help the guy on the pole, but he begs to be killed and she can’t do it. But the young boy kind of mercy kills this guy. And, uh, Alejandro was still in the cage and he’s yelling, help me, help me, let me out, let me out. And she just kind of looks at him like F you buddy.

And she, uh, she takes off running. Do you want to kind of, well, 

Todd: yeah. And, and so after that she takes off running and runs into the construction workers, fighting, shooting the tribesmen. She happens to have the one cell phone that they found. Uh, one of the cell phones that they found at the plain site, which was dead.

Craig: And I don’t know if it was dead or not. I don’t think it was, but it wasn’t function. Wasn’t fun. It wasn’t right. She didn’t have a signal. And so when she gets there, right, when she gets there, she realizes of course, that she’s completely decked out in native makeup. I thought we were 

Todd: going to come with a night of the living dead situation were just going to get shot.

I thought for 

Craig: sure she was going to get shot. No question at all, but she doesn’t, but you see kind of this. Slaughter of, of this tribe. And, and again, it makes you realize they are not the enemies here. They are just protecting their home, but she gets the pretty genius idea to do the same thing that they had done before at the protest to hold the camera up as though she is videotaping.

So they stopped at her, but they stop. And the guy says in a foreign language, I don’t speak, but it sounds like give me the camera or get rid of the camera or something. And she throws it down hard enough to smash it, which was really smart because he picks it up to check it, to see if she had actually been videotaping and it’s totally smashed.

So he has no way of knowing. Um, and that is why. They then take her in and deliver her back. And she is the, they ask her before she gets on, are you sure there was nobody else? And she goes, yup. 

Todd: That story to everybody. Uh, and they tell her, well, thanks to you and your bravery. Her story is the plane crashed.

I was the only survivor the tribe took me in and fed me. And I never felt that I was ever in peril or danger they’re angels. And it was only through them that they delivered me. And they say, well, thanks to that. Then you are, you have saved this tribe and she is a little still kind of having some nightmares about which is stupid.

Craig: That was the weirdest nightmare. So it was like an end cap. It was one of those things that you wish that you would find on. The bonus features like 

Todd: a deleted scene that 

Craig: ended up in there. It’s dumb. She dreams that she’s walking on campus and Alejandro comes up behind her and says, I did it. I got out.

And then she liked turns into some kind of monster and bites. His face off is so random and she wakes up and, you know, it was a dream and, um, pretty much, you know, It seems like she’s kind of gone back to her life. She’s back in the dorm, living with her same roommate and 

Todd: she looks down, down upon the activists and we, you know what, and you’re not really quite sure what’s going through her head, but they have almost co-opted their old Alejandro face as their Chez Guevara or whatever on their t-shirts.

And then it goes to the credits. Then in the middle of the credits, you get this weird little bumper scene that makes it seem like they’re setting it up for a sequel and 

Craig: they are, are they doing a sequel? It w it’s it was in the works. Um, but because of all the difficulty they had with getting this one released, I don’t know if it’ll ever come to pass, but, um, they set it up that she gets a telephone call.

Hello, Justine, who is this? My name is Lucia. I’m Alejandro sister. I’m really sorry. I actually can’t talk right now. I found a satellite photo. It looked like my brother. We need 

Todd: to talk. 

Craig: Right because she would have like the coordinates for this 

Todd: tribe and the Google earth raptured him or something. 

Craig: It doesn’t make any sense, but they were setting it up for a S a SQL.

There was a SQL planned, um, I guess from what I’ve read, it’s still projected to come out in 2018, but there’s not a lot going on, you 

Todd: know, I honestly don’t feel that my personal opinion is it doesn’t deserve a sequel. I didn’t think it was that great of a movie. Now this was shot in 2013. It came out just last year.

Right? What were the problems? Do you know? 

Craig: It was studio. Um, it was slated for a release in October of 2015, but the studio went bankrupt. And so then it didn’t have a distributor. And so it kind of floated around looking for a distributor for a long time. And finally somebody picked it up and they gave it kind of a limited, uh, Theatrical release.

And then, um, it went to, you know, uh, streaming and whatnot. So I think it was just kind of an unfortunate series of events that led to it not getting released immediately, but I think that that may have had some impact on the future of it. And, and I agree with you, but like you were talking about when we first started, what, what are they going to do?

Yeah. What would they do with the sequel? Go back? You know what I mean? 

Todd: It’s yeah, you’re going to do this again. Right. You 

Craig: know, it would just, it’d just be rehashing the same movie. I don’t think it would be worth it 

Todd: again. I’m not impressed. I’m not impressed with. It didn’t feel like Eli raw. It felt like Eli Roth, really just wanting to make a cannibal movie.

Yeah. And all he just did was throw in some ideas almost the same way that Adam Sandler makes a movie. Yeah. You know, it’s a bunch of jokes thrown together, loosely tied with kind of a theme, but it all after awhile. Totally. It’s all over the place. It’s trying to be funny, but it fails half the time and it’s then trying to be serious, but then you can’t even take it seriously because there are all these elements that pull you out of it.

Right. Uh, that it just kind of a jumbled mess. I 

Craig: almost feel bad agreeing with you because I’ve heard him talk about this in interviews. And it really seems like this was kind of his passion project. Like this is really what he’s been wanting to do for a long time. And yeah. I wouldn’t say it was a horrible movie.

I’ve certainly seen worse. It just wasn’t that good. I mean, it was just, okay. There, there was some poor acting, particularly in the beginning, you know, you had your issues with, uh, the cinematography, the, the silly humor that was trying to be injected didn’t make any sense. For the content of the film, there was, I think, an attempt at social commentary that really just kind of felt heavy handed and fell flat.

It didn’t work for me either. I didn’t hate it. I wouldn’t tell people. Oh, don’t watch it. It’s a complete waste of your time. If you are nostalgic for those kinds of Campbell movies, it’s all right. 

Todd: I would say I would, I would say that it’s kind of a waste of your time. Cause I think there are better movies out there, 

Craig: you know?

Well, if you haven’t seen cannibal Holocaust, watch that one. Oh my gosh. It seems so much low, much more low budget and it definitely shows its age, but it’s a better film. It’s a well-made film, as disturbing as it may be. It’s well done. Certainly 

Todd: better than this one. We do our cannibal Holocaust thing.

That podcasts going to be like, even longer than this one, it’s going to be like two hours, just cause there’s so much to say about that movie. This movie is. 

Craig: Just not in the same caliber now. It’s not, unfortunately, sorry, Eli. I’m sure you’re listening with beta dress 

Todd: really wanted 

Craig: to like it. I was really looking forward to it.

I’ve been, and because it’s been delayed for so long, I’ve been looking forward to it for a long time. I didn’t hate it. I’m not going to go home and be upset that we watched it. But yeah. I don’t think I’ll watch it. 

Todd: We’ll look forward to the sequel.

Well, thank you so much for listening to us. Here are two guys and a chainsaw. Please check us out on Facebook like us there. If you liked what you heard today, please share this podcast with a friend. We’re on Stitcher. We’re on iTunes. And, uh, we will be coming back to you next week with another film until then this is Todd and Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

If you’re looking for the perfect “so bad, it’s good” movie to watch with your buddies, few films are sweeter than Sweet 16.

Though it boasts a cast that is way too good on paper to crank out such a schlockfest, at least it has one thing going for it: A memorable theme song. Repeated over and over.

Sweet 16 (1983)

Episode 16, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd

Craig: I’m Greg.

Todd: And happy new year, everybody. It is 2016 or it is in order to kick off the new year. I thought we try the movie. Sweet 16. This was my choice this time, right Greg? Yeah. 

Craig: Very clever 16, sweet 16. Here we are. 

Todd: Thank you, sir. I appreciate that.

Yeah. This is a film that I didn’t know anything about. Uh, Craig didn’t know anything about it. Neither of us had really heard of it until I started looking for movies with 16 in the title full disclosure. But, uh, I did online happened to notice that it had a slight cult following had been released to DVD.

Somehow despite its oddness, but I think the original negatives were lost. There was a little disclaimer at the beginning that said that due to the fact that the original negatives were lost, we apologize for the quality of this film. We’ve used the best quality one we could get from the licenser. So that’s, it was interesting.

Craig: Yeah. And it definitely looked like a transfer from like a VHS or something. It was. There are some places where the editing was a little choppy and it’s, I don’t know. You could tell that the disclaimer was probably a good idea. Yes. 

Todd: Luckily, you know, this, this fine film would have been lost to time had it right for somebody rescuing it, make a couple bucks on DVD.

So the thing that drew me to this movie and made me think this was one we might want to watch was simply the cast. The cast of this film is pretty interesting. We have a bow Hopkins who plays a sheriff in this film. He was in the wild bunch, American graffiti. Midnight express lots and lots of TV in the seventies and eighties.

And honestly, I thought he was one of the strongest actors. Okay. Not a high bar to cross, but okay. Craig doesn’t agree. We have Patrick McNee who played John Melissa’s father in this film. Now this guy has a totally recognizable face. So he was from the howling of view to a kill. He was in this, a spinal tap, again, a lot of TV all the way from the fifties through the eighties, he actually.

Stood in for Leslie Nielsen who was originally supposed to be cast in that role and then had to bow out at the last minute. I suppose this being a 1983 film prom night with Jamie Lee Curtis came out what like 1980, I think. And Leslie Nielsen was a, it was a star in that maybe he was at the time kind of doing a few more, uh, horror, slasher films.

He might’ve been a go-to guy 

Craig: for a little while. Yeah. I read that too. That, uh, he had originally been cast and I was. When I heard that my immediate thought was well, is, is supposed to be funny, you know? Cause that’s, that’s how I think of Leslie Nelson. I think of him as naked gun and, and that kind of stuff.

But I do know that earlier in his career, he took on a lot of serious roles too. In fact, wasn’t he in not creep show, but the other one, he wasn’t creep show to 

Todd: creep show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was in forbidden planet, you know, that’s the one I really remember him from way back in the day. Uh, Billy, who is a kind of a redneck cowboy guy in here who just causes trouble.

Isn’t Don Stroud, who actually was in Django Unchained. Really? Yeah. From the Amityville horror, he was also in a James Bond film, licensed to kill again, tons of TV work during the seventies and eighties, Marcy, which was the sister. Uh, we’ll get into all these characters later. She’s the Sheriff’s 

Craig: daughter, his daughter, Dana 

Todd: Kimmel.

Uh, she shortly. Before shortly after this film was in Friday, the 13th 

Craig: part three, I saw that. And that must be where I really recognized her from, because her face really was familiar. I imagine she probably popped up here and there in the eighties, I saw that she, uh, did a stint on days of our lives. And, uh, that was my mom’s show.

Oh yeah. So I, maybe I recognize her from there too, but you’re right. Lots of recognizable faces. Who was the kid that played her brother. Hey. Hank Hank, his name. He looks so familiar. I, I, he looked so familiar, so I looked him up and he was Troy from the Goonies. He was, of course the jerky Troy. And in this, I really liked him in that movie.

I thought he played that character really well. And then in this movie, I dunno, I guess he didn’t really have much to work with. He was just kind of the All-American kid, but a little flat. I 

Todd: think that was the problem with a lot of these people. It just, it seemed like all of them were pulled out of television, soap, operas.

They were starting to get their film filmography down. And, uh, this was not a good vehicle for them. It really wasn’t just to name two more Don shanks who plays Jason, who is the Indian yeah. Younger Indian guy in this. So he was in dumb and dumber. Uh, he was in a, an angry film. I really enjoy a ride with the devil.

He was uncredited and silent night, deadly night. He was one of the Santas climbing in the window. Interesting. He’s not as big of a name as some of these other people were, but still. He’s no slouch as far as what he’s done before and since, and then Henry Wilcox and we’ll play gray feather, the older Indian character in this, and this was his last film and he’s probably the most seasoned of all of them.

He was a favorite of Cecil, B DeMille. And so he was in, he was in the 10 commandments. He was in the greatest show on earth. Lot of Cecil B DeMille, his films. And then after Cecil B DeMille died, he didn’t actually get a whole lot of work, but he also played a number of Andean characters in television. And he was a caddy, huh?

Craig: As well. So yeah, he looked really familiar to me, but I was afraid that that was my mind just being stereotypical because you know, he was kind of your stereotypical older native American guy. So I don’t know if I really recognized him or if just the character was. You know, so kind of 

Todd: generic and will sadly, he didn’t have a lot to do in this movie either.

He had like, what two lines and you didn’t even see all that much of him. He came and went, although he’s a bit of a figure in the plot. Yeah. Well that was 

Craig: one of the 

Todd: plot. 

Craig: I mean, that was, I don’t know. We’ll, we’ll talk about how we feel about it overall. I’m sure at some point, but going through like, I have so much of the time.

I felt like I had absolutely no idea what was going on. There are so many characters introduced and none of them seemed particularly significant. It was like they were trying to establish as many red herrings as they possibly could. And so I, I had, I was just lost for most of the time. And then at the end, when the mystery starts to get pieced together, Some of the pieces fell into place.

It was like, okay, that kind of makes sense. But there was so much else going on that I was a little bit 

Todd: lost. It’s it’s kind of a mystery. It’s not your slasher film in the sense that there’s a. Sort of a supernatural character running around or somebody we already know, like a Jason or a Michael Myers or whatever that they’re just trying to catch.

It’s seriously a case of, we really don’t know who is doing these things. All we see it’s all stabbing murders and all we see is just a hand very quickly. You can’t even tell if it’s a man or a woman can barely tell what the knife looks like. And people just get picked off one by one. And this is a very small town.

Well must be Texas, Austin, Texas, Texas, I think somewhere near it’s a small town. It’s not Austin. 

Craig: Yeah. And the, the plots, the movie starts out. I mean, you know exactly what kind of movie it’s going to be from the beginning, because the very first shot is of this. Fully nude, full frontal nudity, a young girl who is Melissa, who is really not the main character, but who things kind of revolve around throughout the 

Todd: course or, yeah, that’s a strange thing.

I mean, the movie’s called sweet 16 and eventually it ends up pers her 16th birthday happens in the middle of this at a party. The movie keeps coming back to her over and over again, but she doesn’t seem like any more of a significant character than anybody else in the film. No, 

Craig: the whole thing felt to me, first of all, it felt a little bit made for TV, um, in, in the quality of it.

And then. It kind of felt like that kind of flock to, you know, more of a, uh, a thriller mystery than straight up for it. Actually, it kind of reminded me of like a young adult novel by like Christopher pike or those, and it would have been, you know, titled like there’s something about that Alyssa and the mystery kind of.

Surrounds her, even though eventually you find out that she’s really only kind of tangentially connected to what’s going on, but, um, it just felt very much like that. You’ve got that. You’ve got the sheriff who, after the first murder. Okay. So we have Melissa naked. Great. You get along. Nice long. Look at Melissa showering naked with lots of makeup on meanwhile, this girl, I guess it’s not established yet, but it’s established very soon that she’s supposed to be 15, so weird that it would open with a full frontal nude shot of her.

I don’t believe for a second. This actress was absolutely bad. She didn’t look 

Todd: anything like nobody here looks like their ages anywhere. 

Craig: No. Um, there was. There’s a funeral scene at one point and Melissa, the girl who’s supposed to be turning 16 or whatever. I thought they could’ve put her in a different dress and a little bit more makeup and she could have played these other young people’s moms.

Like not look anything near what her age is supposed to be, but so she and her family are new in town. And, uh, because her dad is an archeologist who was on a dig and, uh, she’s a bad girl. And so immediately she goes out to a bar and she’s looking for a good time. And she said, her shoe broke. And again, we’re getting introduced to all these characters.

You know, we cut from her naked scene to this bar where you’ve got the hillbilly, Billy who, uh, that’s right drunk and jackass and around. And then these two native at first, this older native American guy comes in and gray feather, gray, feather, and, uh, that. Billy and his Lackey, ER, you know, overtly racist.

Well man,

get your ass outta here.

yeah. Loosen up these little cap. And then I younger guy, native American guy, Jason Long shadow comes in and you know, they, they, the hillbillies and the natives, uh, tussle, and then the bartender throws the natives out. Of course, totally unfairly. They didn’t do anything wrong. And when they go out there, there’s Melissa and she’s tries to hit on Jason Long shadow and he’s kind of shoes her away.

So after they go, yeah, Then two younger guys from inside, um, just pop out, right Johnny and, and the Sheriff’s kid, right? Yeah. The sheriff came back and they come out and Johnny’s kind of flirting with her and he’s really a big jerk, but she just. Wanting to get some action. I guess she’s 

Todd: like the town slot is 

Craig: what it is.

She, you know, she’s bad. She smokes pot and yeah, she’s the bad girl or whatever. 

Todd: And I like how he introduces himself. Maybe you’d like to 

Craig: go for a ride

named Johnny. This is my truck. Just the beginning of what is a total smorgasbord of eighties cheese throughout this 

Todd: dialogue. That’s right. So they did tank and, uh, the two of them drive out to this spot in the desert and start making out in the back of his truck. But Melissa just sits up for no really good reason, no established reason and says she gets a weird feeling about where they are.

And he says, well, This is an ancient Indian burial grounds.

I think we both lost it. There it’s so clumsy because there’s no motivation for it. And that, Oh, she gets up and she says, Oh, we need to leave. We need to leave. He’s like, okay. Okay. And they start to get in the car and suddenly you get that point of view, camera 

Craig: shot, like classic killer point of view, walking 

Todd: towards them, which we didn’t get before.

And it’s like kind of walking towards their door and then they just sort of drive off and it’s not established well enough for you to get the sense that there’s this killer that’s been out there waiting for them, or there’s this killer prowling. Did she hear a twig snap? We don’t know because we never saw it, heard it.

It was all very 

Craig: strange. They leave, you know, uh, and, and they, he drives her home and she’s all worried about her dad catching her stoned and, uh, the dad does catch them in the car, the door. And he’s kind of ominous. Did he have like a weird accent or does he just, 

Todd: I think he just talks funny, but yeah, he’s a very proper, it’s got an Ascot on and everything.

His name was, uh, 

Craig: Johnny, right? John. We’ve got John. See, that’s another thing. Dammit. Movies. Don’t give multiple characters. I know to keep track. 

Todd: Well, and this, this movie, all the names, it felt like I was watching an episode of the Waltons. You, you got like. Hank and John and Johnny Dan Frank, Tommy, Kathy Joanie, um, Billy, there was hardly a name that didn’t have a wire, right.

It sound like, you know, But yeah, that was, uh, that was actually Patrick McNeese character. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. They, uh, so you know, the dad is angry and he shoes the young guy away and the young guy’s drunk and he, his car conveniently run. His truck runs out of gas, right back at the ancient Indian burial ground place.

And, uh, He’s stumbling through very melodramatically and, uh, somebody comes up behind him and stabs him and he’s dead. And that, uh, sets in motion, this small series of murders. So then we kind of follow throughout and that’s the central mystery who is doing 

Todd: this. It turns out that Hank who had to walk home apparently from the bar, from Earl’s that night, uh, is the son of the sheriff.

And so. If it revolves around anybody it’s really revolving around the sheriff and his little family. Um, the sheriff, uh, whose name was Dan, Dan he’s divorced or something. We’re not sure what’s quite the mom’s 

Craig: out of the picture. It never 

Todd: explained anything. And he has these two dogs, these two kids, Marcy and Hank, and 

Craig: they’re like, One of the Hardy boys and Nancy drew, like 

Todd: right.

When she first introduced to her, she’s actually reading a book called murder myths, called murder 

Craig: mystery. And she’s sitting there reading it at the breakfast table and she goes, yeah, I knew it. The Gardner did it with the rake. Would you put that book away? It’s not supposed to be your rake. How did he kill somebody with a rake?

And she is this, you know, she’s her daddy’s little sleuth. And, and I get the feeling that the brother Hank was kind of supposed to be that too, but they just didn’t play it up as much, but it’s hilarious because they’re like his little investigative team. Like he gets the call that Johnny never made it home last night.

So he goes out to investigate and he just takes his teenage kids with him to wherever the, you know, they find the truck and, 

Todd: uh, And she’s always inserting her opinions into this. And he’s like, well, I think I’ll be the one doing the investigation here and okay, daddy, I’ll just run off and it’s not like she’s right.

Most of the time either, but it’s just so 

Craig: funny and so silly. Like she throws around terms like Tod. Time of death. Like she’s like explaining them to people, to the audience. Uh, she’s this? Oh God, it’s so funny. She’s just, she’s she’s Nancy drew. 

Todd: Well, you know that though, they never really follow through with that thread so much either.

It’s like she pops in as a Nancy drew character sometimes, but for a good majority of the movie, she’s either not there or tagging, just tagging, tagging along, or it doesn’t really have anything valuable to contribute, you know, it’s, it’s weird. It’s like, A half written character here. That’s never quite fleshed out, but she’s clearly the, the 

Craig: nicer, right.

She’s the good girl. You know, she wears colors that come all the way up to her neck and she has her hair and, you know, very modest styles. 

Todd: And she says what? She doesn’t know how to wear makeup. Apparently Melissa does. It seems like she does a pretty good job of putting her makeup on, Oh God. 

Craig: You know, it’s, it’s difficult to describe the plot because I feel like it’s so convoluted and they kind of try to take you off into all these different places and clues, just keep getting dropped.

So clunkily like, um, at one point Melissa’s mother said, you know, is talking to somebody and the so-and-so says, how’s your sister. And she’s like, fine. Like just these little things. Oh, okay. Well, I’m sure that’s not going to come back up later. Um, it’s overall it’s clunky when it gets right down to it.

This is a bad movie. It’s a, it’s a really bad movie, but, and we kind of talked about this before. This is one of those that’s almost so bad. It’s good. Oh yeah. I mean, we were sitting here eating pizza, drinking beer, and laughing our asses off because it is so. Unintentionally funny. I mean, we were, we were really, really cracking up through a good portion of the movie just because it’s so silly 

Todd: and ridiculous.

And you don’t really know what they’re trying to do. The director of this film, Jim Soto’s is short for like Dimitri SOTA Slafsky or something like that. So, and accord, I looked him up on EMTB and according to his bio, That he wrote himself, he’s directed hundreds of music, videos, and hundreds of TV commercials.

And then he has very little in the way of film in his name after this one in particular. But it’s, it does not feel like the kind of movie that would be shot by a guy with a lot of experience in shooting. Music videos and commercials, unless all the experience cat came after this, it’s not stylized in any way shape.

It has no style at all. Why you say, when you say, if you feels like you’re watching a TV movie, it’s so pedestrian in a way that it’s shot, it’s too dark. And I mean, it could be a function of the print and things, but it’s, it’s really dark and places. It’s. Framed up just, just a bare minimum of how you’d frame up the characters.

The locations are not that interesting. 

Craig: No. And the, like the only kind of different thing they did with the cinematography was those. They had a few of those POV shots, like killer POV shots, and then they had these weird out of nowhere. Slow motion sequences that I don’t understand what they were going for.

Like, it was just bizarre, like just out of nowhere, there would just be a, a slow motion shot of Melissa or whoever, and, you know, lots of like exploitive body shots and stuff. Like she’s totally nude and for a good. I would say minute and a half or so in the beginning for just in the shower, nothing to do with the plot at all.

And then she’s constantly just kind of wearing these skimpy 

Todd: outfits, no bra 

Craig: like just, or just like a camisole and panties or something. And she’ll just be staring at herself in the mirror and the camera will do a really, really slow pan shot up her body, like linger on her panty area. Like it’s just.

Todd: It’s odd. It’s strange. And what stranger is that inserts these at the oddest moments? It’s like, we need to show the passage of time or we need to just, we haven’t seen Melissa in a while. I sort of feel like it was just inserted to keep Melissa as a thread throughout this movie because she actually doesn’t play a big role in it, but she’s built on the front.

It’s called sweet 16. There’s a picture of her provocative on the poster, but you’re right. It’s extremely exploitive her. They’re just long lingering scenes of her looking at herself in the mirror, her changing her clothes and staring at herself and her walking by a mirror in a skimpy outfit and stopping and turning braking it.

Oh. And then the muse, the theme song comes in. 

Craig: Yeah. And I feel like that was one of those weird moments where it’s just it’s. Okay. So after the first murder, all of the teenagers go to school to high school. Where it seems like they hang out for like five minutes a day and then follow their parents around all the rest of it.

Yeah. 

Todd: Um, you think it was summer except they’re still going 

Craig: to school. Cool. Right. So there’s the, you know, there’s the new girl and she’s sitting by herself kind of, I guess, like on the lawn during lunch or whatever. Uh, and the, there’s just kind of a long shot of her and this. Lovely. Melody comes up.

You with us. That was God. And it goes 

Todd: on and on. It’s like a narrating the movie for us. So 

Craig: funny. And I was waiting for it too, because in the opening credits, which also feel very cheap and pedestrian, it feels very much like an eighties TV movie there that, you know, that was build right there at the beginning music by so-and-so and Melissa written by.

So I was just waiting for the Melissa theme song and I was not disappointed at a very odd place. Yeah. And then they repeated it several times. 

Todd: Usually what she’s staring at herself in the mirror. Jeez. That’s crazy. Well, she meets Tommy Jackson. She’s still a bad girl. Tommy Jackson is a football player.

She decides to meet him afterwards at this bar behind the bar and everything. You know, the bars, the only other place in town. Apparently the high school kids can even, and, uh, he ends up dead, but she in looking for him, stumbles across gray feather back there, who is. It’s like he discovered the body or he’s standing over the body or something scares her.

And, uh, he sees the dead body and she runs off and reports it. That gets the rednecks thinking that we got to get up in arms around these in, and they even call a town meeting. Right. Um, there’s another character, the mayor type care, the town chairman who comes in and he 

Craig: wants to call a 

Todd: meeting. And I guess it was to provide another red herring in that, at this town meeting, Billy and his.

Lacking or trying to get the crowd riled up, that this is the fault of the native Americans.

I don’t think we mentioned that Melissa’s father, the archeologist is digging in this ancient Indian burial. Rightly it all ties together very neatly, but not, I 

Craig: mean, they it’s like, they’re trying to make all these connections, but most of them don’t even matter. No. Her dad, they could have completely erased that character out of the movie.

He was, there was no purpose, I guess. Okay. So he’s doing this dig and, and like, like Todd said, everything is, you know, intricately woven together. He’s doing this dig on the Indian reservation. Apparently because he wants to excavate the artifacts so that he can sell them so he can do more excavators so that he can do more excavating on the land.

And then one of his workers just happens to be Jason Long shadow, the young native American. And it’s just, it’s so 

Todd: convoluted. It’s weird because they try to throw Jason Long shadow is a suspect because he was the last person because he was angry at Melissa. Um, shortly before Melissa ran off with, with, uh, John with, uh, Johnny, with Johnny.

And so he becomes a person of interest. Uh, did he kill Johnny then? Of course, gray feather was the last one seen at that crime. And so gray feathers, a person of interest. But when the cop goes to, when the sheriff goes to question gray feather, after this, he finds them hanging and they invent. Uh, well, he even alludes, like they’ve invented the suicide story.

They’ve told the press and they’ve told the public and they’ve put in the records that it was a suicide, even though the sheriff knows damn well that it was those rednecks that went and killed him, 

Craig: which makes no sense. It doesn’t make any sense. And like, we’re, it’s never explained what. He was doing there at the crime scene.

Like, yeah. There’s no explanation for that at all. I feel like when Melissa run bumps into him, literally bumps into him at the crime scene, he says, run is run. So did he know who the killer was? I don’t know. And then right. And then he ends up hanged and it’s suggested to us that he was hanged by Billy and the other.

Hillbilly guy, but that’s really never confirmed. Like everything is, everything’s just kind of left up in 

Todd: the air. That’s really lovely up in the air. What I want to know is really that, uh, John. His worker, helping him dig into an ancient Indian burial site is a native 

Craig: American man. Well, and see that that’s again, more convoluted plot.

So then the, the dad who is doing the excavating, he comes to the cop Dan and says, I fired, uh, Jason, and I want you to arrest him because things have gone missing. Oh, well, what was it that went missing? This is my work, those on guest artifacts. To me, they’re more than that.

Those knives alone could bring me enough financial support to excavate the on top area. Now

I never seen nothing like it. Five exquisite basis, better with the chiefs, the sacred knives. I mean, I’m trying, Oh my gosh. They were killed with knives. Right? Lots of thought to maybe mention that before, because again, this guy, the dad has gone around, like investigating with the cop. Apparently the cop just takes whoever’s handy around to like, be as deputy or something.

I don’t. Yeah. So it’s 

Todd: so strange and it’s weird. Well, he finds the nut. He breaks into the, he essentially breaks into every house. He goes into the cop, the cop, uh, knock, knock nobody’s home. So he just opens the door and start searching. 

Craig: Right. And he finds the first one. He does that too. He finds great father, father hanged.

Well, then he’s suspicious of, uh, Jason. So he goes to his house again, no answer. So he just goes in and not only does he just go in, but he starts going through his stuff. And 

Todd: then like he, of course 

Craig: he opens one trunk and pulls back one blanket and there is this whole stack of tribal knives, which apparently 

Todd: he’s actually stolen right from the Dick.

So he gets arrested and put in jail while the cop goes on his investigation. And he’s teamed up with this other girl. It’s maybe my favorite character in the whole thing, Kathy. I have 

Craig: no idea who she is. What does she, where does she work? She works in records. 

Todd: Must be it. They have one computer cords this 1981 computer.

So it’s going to take her a while. So he just decides he’s going to go through the microfilm himself. Um, and they go. And the thing about Kathy is that she’s constantly trying to, she’s the comic relief of this whole thing. She’s constantly she’s tension. She’s intense. She’s hitting on Dan. Uh, it seems like 

Craig: I got the sense that they were like in a relationship.

Right, right. Is that, or no, I 

Todd: know you got the sense that she wanted a relationship and he just flirted with her to get what he wanted. He wasn’t really interested. Maybe. I don’t know. I just put, the girl does 

Craig: bring it up. Yeah. The girl says maybe, maybe you should propose to the daughter, you know why maybe you should propose to her.

So, and he says, I’m not in any hurry to get. Uh, to get married again, but, well, it becomes 

Todd: very clear why you wouldn’t propose to this woman. She’s funny. 

Craig: She is annoying, but she’s funny. I mean, she’s everything out of her mouth as a hint, like, you know, let’s go take me out to a nice steak dinner. Ooh. I sure do love baked potatoes.

Todd: Here’s what I would 

Craig: eat it, but what’s even funnier about that is. Yeah, there’s I couldn’t for the life of me, figure out what about him was appealing to her? Like you just totally brushes her off at every turn and, you know, shows absolutely no interest in her whatsoever. And she just keeps laying yeah.

Laying it on. It’s 

Todd: funny. Yeah. It is funny. Well, they go on their investigation and that’s where he is looking up previous murders in the town, which is an odd thing to do. I think. I know it’s sort of typical. Let’s see what the history of this town is and dive in. But usually that’s when the murder has some sort of historical basis, right?

Like it’s part of a very, it’s not just some people been getting stabbed. It’s some people have been dying in a very unusual way that maybe points to an event that happened earlier or an artifact or, or something about the town 

Craig: hasn’t came to that conclusion. No sense to me because all of these murders appear to be about Melissa in some way, and she’s only 16 and she’s new in town.

So, you know, how could that, that doesn’t make any sense, except for that. Another one of those little nuggets of exposition that just gets dropped in there. Melissa’s mother who looked a lot like Carrie Fisher, didn’t you think? 

Todd: Yes, she did. Anyway, you’ve got to say Melissa’s mother is Susan Strausberg. Uh, she is the daughter of Lee Strasberg, the very famous acting coach of the actor studio who really brought method acting to the United States based on Stanislavski’s, um, acting techniques.

They could have used 

Craig: his 

Todd: help. Yeah, they really could have. And I feel like she probably is a very good actress. And maybe many of these people are good actors. They just were given such terrible material and terrible 

Craig: direction. Yeah. Seems that way. But she drops a little nugget of information that, Oh, I used to live here a long time ago, but I had to leave.

Because my dad had to take a job or something and what we’re back now or something. And again, it’s another one of those. Oh, like, I can’t imagine that will be important later. And that scene where you’re talking about, um, with Hank and cath, is it no, Dan, Dan, the cop and, uh, Kathy doing the investigating.

You get the sense that that’s the point where they’re putting things together and we’re supposed to put things together too, but you’re just getting these shots of. Text on the microfiche and I still don’t get it. I still don’t get it. It was like, there were, there were, it seemed at first, like it was significant that there were murders every couple of years.

And then the last one, he sees the one that’s like the aha moment or whatever says local girl found dead in institution. Um, and then if you look at the text of the girl’s name was Joan plat, which is Melissa’s mothers. 

Todd: Maiden name. Yes. And that is something you could have missed if you picked up on it. I, I gave up trying to read these things cause I couldn’t see any connection, but you’re the one that said, Oh, isn’t that Melissa’s mother.

Okay. Ah, but if she’s dead, okay. Now we start, you know, figuring out that it might be Jones’ mother in some way shape, form, and 

Craig: that’s kind of, and at that point, you know, the reveal doesn’t come right away. I mean, they, they figure out who it is. Or the dad does Dan, uh, seemingly I mean, cause he hightails it out of there and his is booking it towards the sweet 16 party, which was where everybody is.

Now. Everybody in town 

Todd: was invited to the suite. It’s got everybody in small 

Craig: town. Right. It seems like there’s like 20 people in the whole town. Um, and uh, the parties, you know, Going well, everything’s fine. Um, Melissa and the sun Hank go off on a walk together where they end up swimming in the pond. Again, Melissa, totally topless and exposed, uh, to the camera.

And then you get the POV shots again. We already know there was a scene at some point where Jason, the native American guy was in jail, but he broke out. So we know he’s on the loose. So again, there’s all these red herrings. 

Todd: And then this is sort of the convergence of all of the suspects, essentially.

They’re there in the water and through the woods, Billy and his, uh, the red and red Mac friend, and they’re taking a whiz, they have accord. They happen to be taken a whiz at the same place and they notice them at the same time. Then we see the Jason, the Indian who’s just broken out of jail coming into the woods.

Looks like maybe he’s following the kids and not the guys. And then there’s a big interaction where Jason comes upon the rednecks and he’s like, I know you killed a great father. What did he ever do to you? There’s a tussle there where they knock him out. You think they’ve killed them, but they haven’t quite Melissa 

Craig: leads Hank into the water and they frolic for a little while and then she just gets out and starts walking away.

And he’s like, where are you going? And she doesn’t answer. She just keeps walking away. And she comes upon the rednecks. You start to rough her up. And that scene made me really uncomfortable. Very strange. It felt like you’re kind of going to get into, like I spit on your grave or the last house on the left territory there, but then not 

Todd: at all.

No. Cause one of them slaps or knocks routes and they get really upset that they’ve knocked her out. So it’s like, They have, they have no trouble roughing her up, but they would never go so far as to knock her out or do weird things to her. It’s kind of questionable. What in the world were they hoping for?

Right. Why were they roughing her up right first 

Craig: place? Um, yeah. But anyway, so they, the other one, the Lackey, he’s the one that knocks her out. Then Billy is like, why would you do that? And go get some water. And so he goes down to get some water, I guess, to splash on her face. I don’t know. And then while he’s down there, Billy gets killed and then the Lackey comes back and he’s like, Oh no.

And then he gets killed. And then hate comes out of the water and then he gets stabbed like in 

Todd: the, or the shoulder or 

Craig: something they had, I guess the rednecks had kind of knocked him out too. Like he had tried to come to Melissa’s aid or something like that. They was around, he woke up and the killer stabbed him in the arm.

And the cinematography is so jumbled. You can’t even really tell what’s going on, but like he, he gets up and runs away and like it’s nothing. And then the 

Todd: movie just. And yeah, the cop, the it’s Oh, no. What happens is the girl. Comes across the sisters are Marcy Marcy. Who’s been looking for them. Cut stumbles across this whole scene of dead bodies of dead bodies and sees them Melissa’s mother sort of poised over her, sitting on the ground, poised over 

Craig: her.

She’s got blood on her. Dress 

Todd: and she’s has a knife in her hand. And as Marcy gets closer, she raises the knife like from about three or four feet away. She could never stab her, but raise the knife as though she’s going to stab her. And then from out of nowhere, the father, Dan, the sheriff dives in, in another one of those weird.

Slow Mo scenes where, you know, they were just watching the footage and said, boy, this looks like utter crap. Right? We better like at least slow Mo this up or something comes dives and drives her out of the way and then starts this deal where they’re talking down the mom. And so it turns out that the mom, this is where you start to finally figure out that it’s supposed to be the mom.

And you’re trying to 

Craig: figure out why. Well, and it’s all very calm. Like he, like the Dan tackles, his daughter gets her out of the way. And then he’s like just kind of talking to her, the killer. He knows the lady with the knife is just. Sitting there, you know, going crazy to Melissa or whatever. Um, let me have the knife.

Nobody’s going to hurt you.

Is just kind of Sydney, like literally just sitting in the background, just like in the back of the shot, he’s not doing anything. They’re just hanging out chill, you know, killers, whatever. Um, and so then the dad that Dan starts trying to kind of talk down the mother whose name we thought was Joan, but the way that it is explained, and she’s kind of babbling.

She’s she’s talking to Melissa, but she’s referring to Melissa as Joan. And, uh, she’s saying we got to get away. He’s coming. We gotta get away. And then she freaks out. It’s like, no, daddy stopped. Don’t hurt her. Don’t hurt her. Um, so. Apparently. And, and after they do finally well after she subdued and we’ll get there in a second, but there’s a scene where Dan is talking to, uh, Melissa’s dad and explaining what had happened, 

Todd: which they absolutely have 

Craig: to do.

And it’s hilarious because what, okay. The way that the, the mother is subdued, the sheriff reaches for the knife. He’s like, give me the knife. I promise nobody’s going to hurt you. I promise nobody’s going to hurt Melissa. And she just takes the knife and plunges it into her chest. For no apparent reason.

And then Dan is explaining to her husband. Mind you, his wife is now dead and has been responsible for murdering a bunch of people. It’s like, they’re chatting over coffee. He 

Todd: has the same calm effect on his face that he’s had throughout everything in this movie. Right? Oh, well, like I always knew that she was a, uh, I didn’t realize she was so troubled, I guess that really shook her up.

She, yeah, 

Craig: she talked about her sister, but I never really paid it any mind. 

Todd: It’s too busy with my archeological digs. Apparently 

Craig: what happened is there were two sisters, there was Joni and Tricia. And the dad abused Joanie. It’s never really specifically said hat, how you get the suggestion that it was like sexual.

Um, but I guess Tricia killed the dad and Joanie went insane. And had to be institutionalized and then she killed herself. And when Joanie killed herself, Trisha took on her identity and move back 

Todd: to the town to get kind of, to completely fulfill her identity and start murdering people. 

Craig: Well, right, because now.

She’s projected this need to protect somebody on to Melissa. And so anybody that gets close to Melissa potentially causes the threats of Melissa. She takes them out. I mean, I guess it kind of makes sense, but it seems like it comes so far out of left field. Like they’ve given you so much misdirection that when you get to the end, you just kinda have to shrug your shoulders and go, okay, 

Todd: well, what’s the problem with these sort of hacky things?

Is that it. Leaves a whole heck of a lot, unexplained, a lot of plot holes as to how could she be in these different places? Uh, undetected. How could she be following them? Yeah, one 

Craig: of the murders takes place and then like the very next scene, Hank and Marcy, you’re walking down the road and the mom like picks them up.

I mean, I guess maybe it’s supposed to be suggested that she’s come directly from that murder. I don’t know. But there are tons of plot holes, like. In my mind, I can understand why Jason would have stolen the knives, but they never explained why. I mean, it’s just, it’s just for the purpose of being a red herring.

And there are so many of those, I mean, it’s just, it’s full of holes 

Todd: all over the place. Yeah. And, uh, and I love at the end too, where the Jason kind of comes in and they start talking with him too. And it’s like all, what all is forgiven? You stole the knives and then you broke out of prison. Uh, beat up the deputy, deputy, put him in the jail and locked him in there.

But, and then, you know, went down and actually threatened the, the redneck guys. I mean, he did whip out a knife on them, but I guess he’s cleared of all of that now. So I wonder the bridge. 

Craig: So that’s pretty much it, except then we go back to a scene kind of the, the party guests kind of there, I guess, kind of lingering or whatever.

And yeah, see it’s the, the shot is from behind Melissa. It’s kind of over her shoulder and she’s kind of wrapped up in a blanket, you know, traumatized, I guess, and over her shoulder, you can see that she’s talking to Marcy and Hank and Marcy kind of looks at her and says, are you okay? And she says, I’m fine.

And it was, I knew something weird was going on because it was perfectly clear that they were intentionally not showing her face. In fact, I, it, it looked to me like a stand-in it looked like somebody in a wig. I don’t know if it was, um, but it was pretty intentional that they weren’t. So I was wondering what they were going to reveal.

She gets up. To walk away and she walks in the house and the beautiful Melissa song starts playing again, slow Mo again, she gets to the door at which point, the point of view switches to the other side of the door. She opens. And again, like you said, slow Mo and she just walks in with like these wild, crazy eyes, like just this ridiculous look on her face.

And she drops the blanket and she’s holding the knife in her hand, Looney tune. And then, and then that’s it that’s so I guess. We’re supposed to take that this whole thing is traumatized her, and now she’s going to be a psycho knife killer. Like her mother, if they 

Todd: were setting it up for the sequel, it was never going to happen.

Oh my gosh. Thank God. Terribly enough to movie, uh, in almost every way. And I will give the actors a pass simply because. Their lines were terrible and the plot was hard to follow and the locations were bad and the direction was clearly bad. I know staging 

Craig: is work. It’s just so silly. I mean, there was such, and honestly I had a good time watching it with you.

Oh, absolutely. It was fun to say, you know, order a pizza. Grab a couple beers. If you’re a rebel, like, uh, the girl in the Melissa, you know, maybe light up a Doobie or something. And, uh, and, and if you’re looking for cheesy stuff, I think you could have, you could have a really good time with this movie. I had a good time watching it.

I mean, there was just so many, even things that we skipped over. There’s a scene in the graveyard after one of the younger boys. Death. And again, the graveyard is just like the same desert set that they’ve been on the whole time, but they just stuck white wooden crosses in the ground. And that’s the graveyard.

And they’re burying this kid and Marcy confronts Melissa, who at this point she’s never really met. Oh my God. And she like. Choose her ass for a minute. And then Melissa turns to walk away and she’s like, Oh wait, I’m sorry. We can still 

Todd: be friends. Start making up, like suddenly like that. I guess that wasn’t a good way for me to get off on the right track 

Craig: and they’re best friends.

And then in the next scene, the Marcy and Hank and Dan, or the family are all driving away and the guys are talking about how maybe Melissa is a subject or a suspect. And Marcy is like, no, no way. We’re best friends. You can never do anything like that. Oh, my God, so many cheesy parts and it really is laugh out funny.

Yeah. This is a 

Todd: movie to totally get the MST three K treatment. Absolutely. You’re there with your friends. Um, that’s really the only reason to watch it. Yeah. I don’t know. 

Craig: Final any other final thoughts? I am surprised we had as much to say about it as we did. I mean, I really kind of had no idea. I was left kind of speechless.

I was left dumbfounded. I mean, this is one of the most. Odd little horror movies I’ve ever seen. And there are times when you see movies that maybe don’t reach the potential that they could have. And this is not one of 

Todd: those times, this is a pure, but it is the Quintessa. And sometimes people say, Oh, well, that movie is so bad.

It’s, it’s funny. And it’s not, or it starts out that way. And then it just gets boring and this movie was anything but that, uh, it definitely. From beginning to the final scene has things for you to make fun of things for you to laugh at things for you to just to blow your mind pure 

Craig: cheese at its finest.

Todd: Well again, happy new year. Thank you for joining us. Uh, with Sweet 16, we hope to be bringing you more podcasts as the year goes on. If you enjoy this podcast, please share it with a friend like us on Facebook. Book find us on Stitcher and on iTunes until next week on top. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We’re a bit puzzled why this 80’s slasher has remained under the radar for so long since its release. But it stars scream queen Jamie Lee Curtis and takes place on a train. Good enough for us!

Terror Train (1980)

Episode 15, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Welcome to another edition of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd

Craig: I’m Greg.

Todd: Happy belated Christmas to everybody. I hope you had a good time. Uh, we’re have the new year approaching us. And so we decided to find a movie. It was kind of hard actually to find new years related films, right? Yeah. 

Craig: You had joked last week.

There’s gotta be a new year’s eval or something along those lines. In fact, I think there is, but it didn’t sound very promising. In fact, it’s not even set at new year’s it’s set like in the middle of the summer, but they just happened to. Stumble upon like some setup, new year’s Eve party or something. I thought, well, that’s an interesting take.

Anyway, 

Todd: those titles are just for marketing purposes more than anything else. I mean, you know, folks, we, we do actually try to find films that are interesting. We don’t just find schlock all the time. This movie, I don’t know. I wouldn’t necessarily call it schlock. Would you 

Craig: know? I mean, I think. Really for the time period that it came out, which was, what year do you know?

It was early eighties, 1980, 

Todd: 1980. All right. The film is, um, called terror train, right. And this is one of four films. The Jamie Lee Curtis just basically did back to back, starting with 

Craig: yeah. And really kind of established her career, established herself as a scream queen. Of course. You know, her, her mother, Janet Lee, before her had kind of been a scream queen in her own.

Right. Having been in a psycho psycho. Right. Exactly. Original scream queen. Exactly. And, uh, yeah, Jamie Lee, he does her thing here. Not dissimilar from those other roles, kind of maiden in distress. Um, I saw an interview that she had done somewhere where she talks about these characters and how, you know, for these girls that she plays in these movies.

They have to have a certain vulnerability because you have to, the audience has to believe that they are an actual peril, but at the same time, they have to have enough inner strength. To be able to survive to the end and, you know, just even to hear an actress. And I think Jamie Lee Curtis is amazing.

She’s a great actress, but to hear her talk about that and really kind of, you know, she, she puts thought into these characters as, as. Simple and as a kind of cookie cutter as these movies can be, you know, 

Todd: she’s, she’s given it her up. Oh, she is. And now, so that raises an interesting question. Seeing her in this movie and seeing her in Halloween and prom night and all those other films, or I guess it was the fog she did before this, which wasn’t too great.

Did you see a difference? 

Craig: I don’t know. I mean, I guess, and I don’t know this came after Halloween, right? So she was a little bit younger in Halloween. And I think that her age, her, her youth shows a little bit more in that I’ve seen the fog once. I don’t really remember that much about it. I’ve never seen prom night.

Certainly similarities. I mean, the, you know, there’s not a whole lot of complexity or depth of character in these things, but she pulls it off. Well, she’s a good heroin. You’re rooting for she’s tough 

Todd: gal. Yeah, she does. I, you know, she doesn’t have a lot of screen time in this one. I mean, It’s not the sort of final girl that you’re seeing throughout the film that the film kind of focuses around her, right?

Yeah. It’s not like Halloween in that regard. It’s, 

Craig: it’s kind of more of an ensemble piece and really the conductor of the train kind of takes a pretty pivotal role. I mean, he’s, I would say his character is nearly as central as hers is though. She is clearly the final girl, the lead that we’re, we’re falling around, but.

The conductor gets a lot of business too. Oh yeah. 

Todd: And he gets top billing. He’s Ben Johnson, a place Carney, the conductor, I guess. And he’s a pretty seasoned actor. I know. I saw that he has a huge level of TV. He was on Gunsmoke, lots of westerns. The wild bunch, you might recognize them from angels in the outfield.

Craig: The last picture show he was in. It’s funny. I was looking through his, uh, his, his list, his filmography, and one of the things that I remembered him from was cherry 2000. You ever see that? No, man. It’s great. It’s like a Melanie Griffith mad max kind of movie from the eighties. It’s so bad. It’s amazing.

You’ll have to watch 

Todd: that. Oh my gosh. You know, he was likable from the beginning. He’s the jovial kind of guy and you’re right. He’s the thread that really pulls us all together. Right. He’s the guy we see in the beginning, who seems almost too eager. To be getting on a train full of drunk college students on new year’s Eve.

Right? Of course, before this train happens, there’s some backstory that’s very important to the plot. That pretty much spells out what you’re going to see. I mean, it’s, it leaves. You think maybe they’re going to pull a twist on you in there and they kind of do, but they kind of don’t right, 

Craig: right. Yeah. One of those things where there’s, interestingly enough, the opening scene is set.

When this group of kids it’s, it’s a fraternity Sigma Phi Omega they’re pre-med kids and it’s it’s them and their girlfriends. It’s basically, and the opening scene is supposed to take place their freshman year. And it’s at this big new year’s Eve party. I think that they call it hog night or something like that, something like that.

It was like a brush kind of thing. I guess you’re doing a hog roast or something or something, but the, uh, all of the newbies are supposed to be trying to get laid. And, uh, one of the newbies, uh, Kenny. They set him up for a prank and Jamie Lee Curtis is kind of in on it, but she doesn’t really know what’s going on.

She just kind of has a part to play the cool guys in the frat. You know, tell this kid, Kenny, go upstairs. You’re going to be with this girl, Elena. You know, she wants to be with you. She likes sensitive guys or whatever. And so he goes up to this room that’s, you know, all decked out and. Flashing red lights and like satin things hanging around.

Yeah. Actually it’s got a 

Todd: cool with all of the, uh, not with the sand sheets and things hanging, but the traffic lights throughout, I was like, Oh man, when I was in college, this would have been kind of a cool, they really went all lashing and going everywhere. 

Craig: They send this kid into this room and Jamie Lee Curtis is a, and her character’s name is Elena.

She hides. Kind of behind these curtains on this bed. And she knows that there’s somebody in the bed, you know, one of her friends has kind of ushered her in there and they, she sees something in the bed and says, who is that? And the girl’s like, Oh, don’t worry about 

Todd: it’s. One of doc’s friends is what she says.

The doc is sort of the ringleader of the group. Who’s, who’s been ushering this guy, you know, for exactly. 

Craig: Right. And, um, so she is. The kid comes in and Kenny comes in and she’s kind of luring him with her voice, you know, come over here. Don’t be shy. It’s my first time too. And he comes over to the bed and the figure and the bed is just kind of slumped over.

And Jamie Lee Curtis says, yes, Kenny,

any leans in for the kiss and he kind of pulls. The figure and the beds hair back, and a wig comes off and it’s a dismembered corpse, and it’s really pretty grotesque and discussing would be something that would definitely freak you 

Todd: out. It’s pretty great. And he totally flips out. Totally flipped. He leaps up straight up and starts twirling saying no, no, no.

Or something like that. Yeah. And he’s 

Craig: getting all tangled up in the curtains, right? And then we’re in present day, right? Exactly. And we jumped into, uh, their senior year. Um, and it’s new year’s Eve again. And so you’re right. That opening scene really kind of sets you up. You, you know, that this is probably going to be a revenge thing.

Now, whether that’s going to be. Kenny himself seeking revenge, or if it’s going to be more something like Friday the 13th, where somebody is seeking revenge on his behalf or something like that. So you don’t know exactly. Oh, spoiler alert. 

Todd: Okay. Sorry, Friday the 13th. But 

Craig: uh, you get the sense that it’s going to be that kind of movie and it is, and, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

It’s interesting that, that, um, that opening scene, they shot in post, I guess they felt like. They needed to explain it more and you can kind of tell, you know, throughout the movie, they pepper in little parts of the story throughout. So really even without that opening scene, you kind of probably could have figured out what was going on, but they just really heavy handed.

Give it to you right there in the beginning. There’s not a lot of, uh, 

Todd: Yeah, well, you know, with that knowledge and it’s kind of a shame, really, it might actually be a better film without that opening scene. It, it might’ve been better writing just because of the fact that you’re right. There’s never a moment in the film when somebody.

Steps forward and says here’s what happened four years ago. Right. They’re alluding to it early on. And somebody gets interrupted some of the earlier the people who were pledges, then, uh, come up and ask, Hey, yeah, I heard that a bunch of people got in trouble for a prank that went on. Not realizing that people in the room were involved.

Right. Doc starts explaining it. And then Atlanta, Jamie Lee, Curtis, his character kind of interrupts and doesn’t let him finish the story. And then later on a little bit of the story gets pieced out. And so, and it 

Craig: kind of seems like the people who were there and were part of it are kind of like, no, just, just don’t talk about it.

Don’t say anything about it. 

Todd: It would have been interesting movie without that, just because the character of. Kenny would have been a, more of a mystery. Yeah. And maybe we would have been a little more skeptical as to whether Kenny, you really did this because we wouldn’t have known the whole circumstance behind the situation.

Right. It just wouldn’t have been laid out for us. Like it was. And I don’t know, I find that a little 

Craig: disappointing, I guess. I don’t know. It didn’t really bother me all that much. Uh, I don’t necessarily think that it was needed to lay that out, but it was fine. You know, we, we were talking about. Right. No, you know, you get what you pay for, but we were just, uh, talking earlier about how, the way that this movie was kind of inspired was the director had a dream about a train, right.

And then woke up and turned to his wife and said, What would you think if we put Halloween on a train and she said, that’s a terrible idea. Uh, so the guy grabbed the note pad and wrote down terrible train. Uh, went back to bed, got up in the morning, changed it to terror train immediately started writing, put together a treatment, the first 20 pages or so, and then had it sold in a matter of days.

I mean, obviously, you know, these types of slasher films and were in their heyday. Really? Yeah. 

Todd: It’s crazy. It’s like you could come up with any idea. What about Halloween and space? Right? Here we go. Yeah, it’s sold by 

Craig: three o’clock and that’s pretty cool. Much what it ends up being. I mean, you’ve got kind of a masked figure.

This one takes kind of an interesting turn on that, where it’s a new year’s Eve party on a train, but everybody is in costume. So, of course, when everybody’s in costume, you never really know who anybody is and this killer, once they dispatch somebody, they take their costume. And so the killer is constantly in different costumes.

You never really know who’s who, 

Todd: yeah, it’s really clever. And it’s really the way to put Halloween on a train because otherwise there’s, you can, you can go forward so you can go backwards. There’s not a lot of room to maneuver and to hide yourself and to hide bodies. And it’s clever. Yeah, actually, how that was done, not just that, but the way that the bodies are hidden and how the killer plays with everybody on the train, it seems like this fraternity is all about practical jokes, right?

Like they’re always goofing off. They’re almost to a silly extent. Really? Yeah. It’s either a little dated or it’s just a little hokey, but one guy’s dressed up as Groucho Marx. He was one of the earlier guys involved too. I think his name was Eddie and he’s the big jokester. Yeah. And he gets immediately dispatched with a sword as the trainers.

Yeah, 

Craig: before they even get on and, uh, you see the killer whomever that is, you know, put that mask on and board the train. So yeah, no right away. Yeah. 

Todd: You don’t see the killer, but you see them exactly. Train pulls away and we’re introduced, well, actually a little bit before that were introduced to Carney.

The fun-loving. Nice guy conductor, who just can’t hate. He was never going to be a suspect at all, but he’s doing this stuff meets with his wife beforehand at the station and sort of makes a big deal about that. 

Craig: Try and see. They don’t tear it apart with a party like that. I’m always afraid some kid’s going to hurt himself.

Maggie. I wish the hell. They’d put a radio on that train. What if one of those kids got drunk and fell off? I’ve been talking on that for two years. They’ll Napa always puts the kibosh on it. He said, wean Amtrak. We just let along scourge and train. You want to be here tonight? You’re like 

Todd: riding herd on a police circus.

Darn it. Okay. I really think we need to have radios put 

Craig: in there. I love that. I love that hokey exposition. Like we have to establish that they can’t communicate with the outside world. Uh, it 

Todd: was pretty and don’t expect Amtrak right now, but it is, it’s like an old school train where they have to like shovel coal into it.

Craig: Right. Which I didn’t even hear. Is that real, like in the eighties where they still shoveling coal? I mean, I don’t know. 

Todd: It seems strange. I got the sense though, that it was supposed to be. Maybe a historic train, like a real special kind of thing. It had 1881 written on the back of it, on it, had those elements in a train that you don’t find 

Craig: anymore.

And I feel like it must have been because it wasn’t just your standard, like commuter train, you know, these box cars. And it was really kind of a cool setup really. Um, but these box cars were just kind of big party rooms mostly. And they had in the caboose, there was like a stage where a performance could go on and there were different kind of like lounge, uh, cars.

There were sleeper cars towards the front, but now not just a series of cars with a bunch of seats in it, like 

Todd: I didn’t have a single car. Right. 

Craig: So maybe you’re right. Maybe it is one of those, like. Dinner theater kind of trains or something like that. 

Todd: I’d love to be, yeah. 

Craig: For a party. It looks fun and it was cool.

Um, the way that they did it, I mean, they shot all of the train interior stuff in actual box cars and actual train cars, which I think, you know, I’m no cinematographer. That’s your, that’s your. Shtick, but, uh, I would think that would pose a lot of challenges, 

Todd: especially this being shot on film. I mean, those cameras are large and they’re heavy.

They had to make some modifications to this train to be able to do it. Yeah. 

Craig: I read that they had to do some like interesting crane. I mean, I assume small crane, but like crane stuff to kind of keep the cameras out of the way. 

Todd: I’m just impressed that they were able to do it and then return the train to its state because they were basically renting this train and then they had to return it back to the state.

They had it in. I would have imagined they would have had to carve out the walls, you know, cut holes in it to be able to get these cameras in and around. I was very impressed 

Craig: with that. I was too, and it was cool environment because it was so claustrophobic and I mean, that kind of claustrophobia really adds tension and suspense too.

Plus this train was. Full of kids, you know, full of college kids. I mean, it was really crowded. There was a lot of business, a lot of stuff going on. It never felt distracting. I mean, it really felt like the focus was where it should be. And they were able to move around with the camera angles in a way that seemed very natural.

It didn’t seem disjointed at all. I thought that was, you know, uh, A real strength of the film? Well, 

it 

Todd: was an impressive train. I don’t know if you were counting. I was trying to figure out how many cars are on there. And I think there were six there’s the car w with the stage, which also doubled as sort of the dance room.

Right. And they had abandoned there as well. And that was impressive, but that was a whole car. You had the car that was a bar, which seemed to be added onto that because I think you pass through that to get to the stage. I think. So that was awesome. That little bar that was lit up and then people are lounging kind of dancing in there.

You have the car that, of course at the front of the train, which was pretty empty, except for the little cage area where the conductor would do his business or whatever. 

Craig: Right. Like right behind the, behind the engine. 

Todd: It’s. Yeah. And that was where Carney and his two or three other engineer guys would all kind of sit and play cards and relax.

You had the car that seemed to be somewhere. And this is where the geography, the trunk kind of got messed with a little guys, but at first it seemed like it was at the end of the train, which was just like the fraternities room, right. That nobody was really in just maybe four or five people at the beginning.

And then. It was empty for most of the time people were walking around through, 

Craig: and it did seem like it kind of seemed like it was at the front. Like they could only come in through one way, but obviously it wasn’t in the front because the engine in that other room had to be up there too. There was also, you know, you talk about the geography it’s towards the end of the film, when all the mayhem is ensued, Elena, the main girl, Jamie Lee Curtis is kind of being ushered around and protected by the employees of the train, I guess.

And one of the guys. Takes her to this car where he’s like, Oh, I guess nobody’s been in here in a couple of years. We’ve been all over this train throughout the whole course. It’s like, it’s like a secret side cars. 

Todd: I mean, I don’t know what’s going on here. No way with all of this activity and this train and all these people that they’re not using every square inch of it.

Yeah. And then there was a car that had the old style births. Which are upper and lower deck with curtains, essentially just for privacy. And that’s it. And that was the one that seemed to have the two toilets in it. Yes. And then there was the car that had the bursts, like you’re describing where they’re private, they’re almost multi-room they have closets in there.

They’re really classic and blossom. And those are like the ones you want. And they have just a narrow hallway that goes down the side, the Harry Potter train you. Right. But then. It seemed, there was one more room that was just a lounge and chill area. Am I wrong? I don’t know. I don’t remember. 

Craig: I have no idea.

You were paying much closer 

Todd: to try to figure this out. I, you know, I ride an Amtrak a lot and I’m so fascinated by trains and how you can sort of fit so much in a small space. I was trying to figure this whole train out. 

Craig: Well, one of the. One of the things about that. And the geography of a train is, you know, there’s really only two ways to go, you know, you can go towards the front or you can go towards the back.

And I guess there are kind of little rooms and nooks and crannies that you can kind of be concealed in if people were walking by or whatever. But that was the, one of the things that I was thinking about, you know, as they’re going back and forth, moving around, you would think that they would have to run into the people that they were looking for or trying to avoid.

Right. Kind of more than they do, but 

Todd: whatever, it’s a passageway all the way through, except in those bigger rooms where people are kind of mushed together, could you possibly sneak around people or kind of do anything? Well, it was interesting. So you got David Copperfield in this movie. We see him at the beginning sort of packing, dragging his trunks.

Into an up on the train and the couple of people interact with them. I think doc makes some snotty comments. Yeah. I hate magic. Just tricks. Come on. You love tricks. I love jokes. 

Craig: You’re just pissed off. Cause you can’t figure it out.

Todd: These girls look faint. Can we do anything to revive them, or I don’t know, maybe some kind of injection you girls better come back to the consulting with us when they have to go to explore. And that’s a thread that’s going throughout is how much doc. He’s just an asshole. 

Craig: Well, that’s true. It’s just a jerk.

He’s terrible. Like you wonder why are these people friends with them? He’s not even the rich one. Like if he were the rich one, maybe I could understand that he’s not, he’s just a jerk, but he seems to be their leader and everybody that’s 

Todd: all he puts up with them, puts up with them, except he plays practical jokes on them all the time puts them down.

But they’re not even 

Craig: fun jokes, like they’re mean like he tries to. Like Jamie Lee Curtis, his friend boyfriend Mo is doc’s best friend. And over the course of the movie, he keeps trying to get Moe in trouble. Like he’ll set Moe up with some other girl in a car and then he’ll send Jamie Lee Curtis to go talk to him like, Oh, he’s really sorry.

He wants to talk to you. What a Dick move. Yeah. 

Todd: Was a total Dick. And he treats David Copperfield like a Dick. And Mo just pretty much lays it out and says, Oh, doesn’t he intimidate you because you can’t figure it out. Or something like that. Like the magician is the one guy on the whole train, which would be the dorkiest guy on the whole train who intimidates him, who pisses him off.

And, uh, David Copperfield is giving these shows. In this sort of bizarre stage at the end of the train, this was the only film David Copperfield’s ever 

Craig: been in. Well playing somebody else other than himself, right? Like, uh, like an, like as an, well, I mean, I guess when you’re playing yourself, you’re still playing a role.

Todd: All magicians are actors turning magicians, but I know what you’re saying. Yeah. Playing a character who happens to be a magician he’s in this film and he’s giving these. He’s doing some close-up magic with people. He’s giving his stage performances where he’s even doing like levitations and stuff, which is pretty impressive in the back of this train with this tiny little thing yet.

He’s still so David 

Craig: copper. Oh yeah. He’s definitely got that smarmy thing and you can totally see he’s definitely got a signature style of showmanship that I don’t really think has evolved. Excuse me. Can I borrow that corn? You have there? Yeah, watch this, your cigarette, hold it up to your quarter. It’ll seem to be sticking to it just like that.

And if we keep turning it, it looked like, see where it’s penetrating the corridor. Just like, could you, um, take this lighter here? And the later I’m going to give you cancer. It’s perfect. It’s 

Todd: okay. We saw David Copperfield back in the eighties. My family went to see him when we lived in Washington DC. And at the time I’m kind of a magician.

I’ve been doing magic since I was a kid and I don’t do so much of it anymore, but it was like my first job. And so I’ve always been dipping in and out of the magic world a ton. And. We went to see him in DC. And we were so enthralled with his performance. He did this fly. That was when he was doing the flying thing.

And we got, we were sitting actually pretty close. So super. It was sorta like, like seeing my idol at the time. And he would come out for the curtain calls and he just had this air about him that you don’t, you expect performers when they’re, especially when they’re getting a lot of compliments from the audience and people are just going nuts, standing ovation.

We gave him. You want them to bend at the waist? Yeah. You know, at least once just give a proper bow and he never did that. And that kind of bothered me as a kid. And then we went out into the meet and greet section afterwards. Where you could get a picture, you buy a picture and then you can have monograph it.

And the guy was sitting on what I can only describe as a throne, like a throne on a platform. So high up in the air that you could reach up and maybe touches me as an adult. He had an assistant on one end and assistant on another end. And the line went to the assistant. You handed the assistant, your photo, he hands, arms outstretched up to David who scribbles on it a little bit, hands it down to the next assistant who hands it to you.

And he never once made contact with anybody in the line. So. I don’t have the best impression of David Copperfield. He kind of came off. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, and you know, I don’t, I don’t know the guy or anything. David, if you’re listening, I don’t know, but there’ve been a growing up my future there, you know, there’s, there’s been quite a bit of, of rumors about his douchebag.

Oh, my 

Todd: wife and I went to see him in Vegas, uh, probably about six years ago. And he had this sort of an intimate evening with David Copperfield on the MGM, which may still be going on. And the poor guy just looked like he was totally phoning it in again, totally not impressed. Couldn’t handle a foreign person from the audience who didn’t speak the language and you think, man, this guy for so long and he’s traveled the world and done this stuff and he just didn’t even want to try.

It was really sad. Well, that’s too bad. Well, anyway, I don’t know why we went up 

Craig: in the movie. I mean, he’s. Yeah, he looks like David, he looks like a young David Copperfield. He’s kind of this goofy looking guy. I mean, maybe you’ll argue with me and you know, more about this than I do, but E’s a talented guy, you know, he’s not one to audibly and, uh, you know, all of the illusions and things that he did that he does in this movie are legit.

I mean, yeah, he did them all, you know, there wasn’t there weren’t bill imagine. Right, right. He was really doing the illusions and, and they’re pretty impressive. I mean, Eventually, you kind of figure out why they needed him there, but for the first 40 minutes or so I was, I just kinda felt like, could they just get David Copperfield?

So they were like, okay, they’re a magician 

Todd: on the train, how to weave him in here off her bunch, because he’s our big guy, you know, it didn’t feel like they were doing an awful lot of magic and an awful lot of David Copperfield without much payoff. It wasn’t like he was speaking character in the sense that he was buddy, buddy with the people there.

He wasn’t really weaving in his intricate to the plot. He was an entertainer on the train who would pop in and out and do his shtick. And then make those sort of side long, sexy glances at Jamie Lee Curtis, every 

Craig: now and flirts with her in a couple of scenes. I don’t know. I mean, I kind of got the sense that he was supposed to be a suspicious figure.

Um, but really it more just felt like I’m a sexy vampire. Like I will creep along in the shadows and give you. Sexy eyes. Um, and then of course, you know, once it gets towards the end, I mean, we’re, it’s a slasher movie, so here’s the plot. They’re on a train, a bunch of people get slashed, you know, that’s, that’s what, you know, there’s just kind of a series.

The friends get kind of knocked off one by one and violent ways. It’s one of those things where the killer is always wearing a costume that everybody’s familiar with. So they don’t feel particularly threatened. Um, They’re friends. Right? So their guard is down. So, you know, they’re pretty easily dispatched and eventually it’s discovered that a bunch of people have been killed.

And then it’s kind of a cat and mouse thing with the, uh, the conductor kind of play in the Perry. Mason. 

Todd: Yeah. And I liked how they did that. Actually. I was really impressed because, and this might be a little hole in the plot too, but I guess we can give this killer wide berth. After the guy gets killed with the sword.

The second kill is in the bathroom on a train that only has two bathrooms, which you would think would be a used a lot more, as much as they’re drinking. Oh my God. But, okay, well, right. It’s a movie, right? So this birth area and this bathroom is totally. It were pretty empty. Most of the time he kills this guy dressed in the full-on like lizard lizard suit, right in the bathroom by smashing his head into the mirror.

And then the 

Craig: one black guy whose name was Jackson, which I thought was hilarious. 

Todd: That is true. I also thought it was. Kind of hilarious that the one black guy also his girlfriend was the only other, slightly ethnic non-white woman in the whole train. 

Craig: I was looking at the cast list and I noticed that that actress was vanity.

And I said, please, please let this be vanity of vanities six. Do you remember vanity six from the eighties? It was a girls group. I think it was like, no, it was, I think it was one of Prince’s 

Todd: was group. It was her. It was awesome. She was gorgeous. So pretty. Yeah, so he gets killed and then the killer comes back out and then has a key to be able to lock the door so that it looks like it’s occupied and it’s locked.

So you can lock it from the outside, which I thought, Oh, that’s pretty smart. Because the first thing I’m thinking, as soon as somebody gets killed on the train, it’s where in the hell do you hide this? Right. You know, That was cool. That bathroom could be occupied all night long with a hundred different people.

And every time you checked on it’d be occupied. So nobody would think anything of it. 

Craig: Right. But why did the killer have a key? 

Todd: Exactly. That was the thing where I’m saying, yeah, God, that’s why I thought maybe at that time, maybe they were playing around with a little bit with the conductor. It seemed like a red herring.

Yeah. That may be the conductor. One of his guys would be doing something 

Craig: maybe it’s really never explained it really isn’t 

Todd: because you can’t even imagine the killer would have gotten to that area where the keys would be. 

Craig: I don’t know. I, well, there’s kind of a twist at the end when it’s revealed who the killer is.

Maybe that killer had some skill where they were able to somehow procure a key somehow sneakily, I guess. True. I don’t know. I mean, I think it’s a plot hole, frankly, whatever. 

Todd: Well, it’s as much a plot holes getting pushed off a train, but actually you held on right 

Craig: after you’ve been stabbed through the.

Chest with a sword and staff through the face with a, I don’t know, it’s one of 

Todd: those movie 

Craig: invincible kind of invents. You don’t 

Todd: kill her stabbed in the face with absolutely no Mark. Yeah. 

Craig: Oh, wait. Did 

Todd: he see a Mark? I don’t know. Remember on face stab though, with 

Craig: a great big, it was one of those, like one of those spiky things that you put receipts down on, and it was probably a good six, eight inches long.

And she’s Jamie Lee stabs him right in the face with it. That’s a major if there was any well, and then after she does that, there’s all they tussle and there’s all kinds of blood. She gets blood all over her face and she gets blood all over her hands. And then. The killer gets thrown off the train on, is able to crawl back in somehow comes back and seems pretty much okay.

Todd: After also being stabbed in the back with a sword, right with that, I don’t know where that sword came from either. 

Craig: They were just sort of laying around all over the place. That’s true. They pull up, I think they were supposed to be all the music, the magicians swords, but they were just handy. Like you can just reach your left and grab one at any given in circumstances.

He 

Todd: probably had one in that birth that hadn’t been occupied for 10 years, just because he needed later. He probably had to produce it, you know, later, just in case, uh, We’re going to get to that, right? The fi the sort of battle scene. Cause I thought that was cool too. So anyway, this guy is dead bloodied and broken mirror and everything in this bathroom.

And then the conductor comes by and people are trying to get in. They can’t finally, he comes by with his own key and he’s knocked 

Craig: anybody in there.

Pick up a beer in there. Otherwise I’m going to use this gate. All right. I’m coming to him 

Todd: and he discovers the full-on body and I’m thinking, Oh, This is pretty early in the movie for somebody to discover there’s killer on this trend. Right. 

Craig: Well, and this was interesting too. He was pretty nonchalant about it.

Like, Oh, he walks back to the back in one of the other conductors or whoever it is back there. He’s like, there’s a dead kid back there now. I think. I got the impression that he initially thought that it was some sort of accident, maybe. I mean, there was tons 

Todd: of blood on him and there was a bottle like stuffed in the mouth.

Craig: Yeah. So I think he maybe thought it was an accident, but anyway, he, you know, he takes the other conductor. He sends the other conductor back there to kind of guard the door. And I guess he goes and looks around or something. I don’t know. He comes back and he says, did you look in there? And the other guy’s like, no.

And he’s like, well, I hate to do this too. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so he opens the door and the body is still there. But all the blood is gone. And again, now, yeah, you can clean up a porcelain sink. That’s one thing. But when he initially saw the body, there was blood all over the password too. I don’t know how somebody would feasibly clean that up, but still, you know, Willing suspension, I guess, and whatever.

So, uh, and now the body, which the conductor initially had, I think felt for a pulse. I mean, he, he definitely touched the guy. Yeah. But now the body is moving as though he’s just super, super drunk, like passed out drunk. Um, and of course we figure out it’s not tough to figure out that the killer has just returned and switched out the body.

And now he’s in the different costs. Yeah. 

Todd: There are all kinds of problems with this. It’s nice that it. It introduces this idea that the conductor is doubting himself, but the conductor is not like he’s totally lucid. Yeah. He hasn’t had anything to drink. He has really no good reason to doubt himself. And so he thinks it’s kind of odd, but he doesn’t say anything, but he doesn’t remove the fricking mask from the guy’s head, which is something you would do.

Even if the guy was just drunk, you’d pull the mask off or your friend is there and she pulled up cause he hands her off. He hands, this lizard person off to Jamie Lee Curtis, who assumes it’s Jackson and she kind of walks off with them. Well, 

Craig: I think he actually hands her off to Jamie Lee Curtis, his best.

Right. And, uh, 

Todd: her name is Michie Michie. And she’s docs. 

Craig: Boyfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, she goes off of them, you know, it’s funny. It’s the eighties, I guess. Maybe pre AIDS scare, but they’re all very sexually liberated. Like they all are like in couples, but all it takes is for the other partner of the couple, to just be absent for a moment before they’re all of a sudden all over somebody 

Todd: else who they know pretty well.

Apparently 

Craig: I guess they’re a really tight group of friends. I don’t know. So Michi takes a lizard guy into one of those. Curtains, uh, sleeping areas and they she’s getting frisky with him or whatever. Well, that’s 

Todd: at the same time that Moe’s decided he’s going to get frisky with the V the Val, uh, pet 

Craig: it’s the blonde there’s, there’s lots of swapping going on on this chair kind of convoluted, but Hey, you know, they’re college kids.

Todd: Yeah. We were  college. Wasn’t like that. Sounds like

it’s weird. It’s just, it’s an excuse. It’s an excuse to get people alone together and to get the killer alone with someone, which is how it always is in these movies. I 

Craig: feel like there’s really. No reason to, to go into the details of the kills because they just, they just keep, they just get, keep getting picked off.

Yeah. And it is what 

Todd: it is and the bodies kind of get discovered and then they find, they figure out, okay, there’s a killer on the train. And so they stop the train, which honestly should have been done the first time somebody was found dead, I suppose. 

Craig: But what I was thinking was what is the point of stopping now?

I guess, Purpose in stopping was to get everybody off the train and then they’re going to search the train, but I’m thinking, who are they searching for? I mean, they don’t know who the killer is. The killer could just be out. I guess, you know, the, the conductor, the main conductor, once they get off the train, he tells them all to take their masks off and they all do.

So I guess if there was a stranger among them, somebody might. Notice, but it just seemed kind of off, but they, you know, they get them off the train, they searched the train and they can’t find the killer. But meanwhile, conveniently somebody has a yearbook, uh, on the train with them and they, they kind of put two and two together.

Jamie Lee Curtis says something like, know we have in common, you and me and Mitchie. And the guys, when we heard it, what are you talking about? Kenny? Hampson. You’re stunned with the corpse. Nobody do this. God, Frank, wasn’t just a prank 

Todd: doc. He was sick and saying this to doc right 

Craig: outside. So they get back on the train and they look in the yearbook and they see like an advertisement or something for.

A 

Todd: magic show. I think it was just a feature on him as a 

Craig: magician. Yeah. Uh, of Kenny, the guy that, uh, that they had played the prank on four years ago and he’s a magician. So they say, Oh my gosh, it’s the magician plus earlier doc had said a magician. We didn’t hire a magician. That’s 

Todd: right. There’s some of this early on.

Craig: So again, now they believe, and I think that we’re supposed to believe, and I think. Kind of did, even though I thought it was weird and kind of a stretch, we were supposed to believe that David Copperfield was this kid four years later. And I guess they just don’t recognize they didn’t recognize the plastics or something or something kind of similar and future that kid, that guy.

And he are kind of, I mean, they’re both dark haired and skinny and kind of dorky looking. But I mean, it doesn’t look like the guy, but I think they think it’s him and that’s. Where they go from then on. And so they, they get everybody else on the train. They say, we’ll keep everybody in one car. We’ll, we’ll keep looking.

The conductor goes up into the magic room, you know, the stage room. And, uh, he sees the magician’s assistant. Who’s this, you know, typical, beautiful woman assistant. He sees her and he kind of covertly cues her to come along with him so they can. Isolate the magician in, in that one car and she comes along and, uh, Then they searched the car for David Copperfield, but they can’t find him, but this shouldn’t come as any surprise because he’s a magician and he’s been disappeared, disappearing and reappearing and other places throughout, uh, the whole movie.

Todd: Yeah. I mean, there was a whole trick where he disappeared from the front of the car, under a sheet and then reappeared behind them all. You know there, which is an interesting thing to do. You establish your person as a magician who can do these, these feats, and then suddenly his ability to jump around this train car where you can only go forward or backwards and hide.

These bodies becomes. A little more explainable, you know, or at least right in the movie world. 

Craig: Well, and it would make sense if he is the killer, what an excellent emo, you know what I mean? He’s got the skills. Yeah. 

Todd: And he’s probably profile. So who would suspect the highest profile guy in the train 

Craig: property?

Right? One of the only strangers, they all know each other, so, yeah. Um, so anyway, they can’t find him. They, I, you know, they isolate Jamie Lee Curtis in this room. One of the porters is guarding her. Like you said, it reminded you of black Christmas. You know, they leave the, uh, vulnerable girl alone in a room, you know, smart thing to do.

Of course the Porter gets killed and then we finally have the confrontation. Yup. 

Todd: And the confrontation’s cool. It’s pretty good. I thought it was a great again. You’re confining it to this small space and just these two people in there. 

Craig: And I was really kind of shocked by the brutality of it. I mean, the killer is again in a mask, a different mask than we’ve seen before.

And he’s, I think kind of robe in like these black robes or whatever, and he gets a hold of Jamie Lee Curtis and day. I mean, they really struggle. He has her down on the ground. Um, he’s strangling her for a while, which is, you know, pretty violent. And then she, I think, um, is able to kind of move his hand up to her mouth and she bites him.

And at one point he. See Macs are really hard. Like it’s real, pretty explicit violence that even in these kinds of movies yeah. You see somebody get a machete to the head or whatever, but you don’t often see a man, you know, right. Striking a woman like that. It was really some kind of 

Todd: brutal. Well, considering the fact that the kills really up until then had been.

Pretty typical, pretty typical and pretty quick and pretty off camera. Yeah. Uh, you’d see. The guy start to reach out for, you see a knife res, but you’re not seeing the penetration. You’re not seeing you. Then you just see the aftermath, whereas this was full on brutal. Like the rest of the movie hadn’t been.

Yeah. 

Craig: And, and she puts up a great fight, you know, she’s. Hitting back, kicking him at one point, they end up in that kind of behind the engine room where there’s a cage area. They fight in there. She locks herself in the cage for a while. 

Todd: Interesting. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen anything quite like that before where she li like literally locks herself in a literal cave.

Yeah. And he’s outside of it. And it’s just a wire cage and he’s looking for ways to get into her and he finds a way he’s got that huge pole of some hole with the thing on the end and starts knocking the lights out. And it’s clear he can jab this pole through that cage. He could do it all day long if nobody came around, 

Craig: you know, and that’s when she finds the on the desk, the like the receipt holder with the big spike on it.

And she. As he’s close, trying to get her with the pole. She stabs him in the face, like right in the cheap with it. Um, he falls over in pain. She kicks the door open and gets out 

Todd: as, as well as she’s locked this door and that he can’t get in. She’s able to miraculously kick those 

Craig: chains. Right. And then she runs to the door that leads to the next car.

That door had been locked and chained previously, right? Yes, you’re right. And then she’s able to just really quickly get out and then they struggle in between the cars. Uh, so they’re, you know, they’re exposed to the open air and they struggle in between the cars and she’s fighting him and she pushes him off.

And of course having seen a million horror movies, we know, you know, he’s holding on there. And of course he is, 

Todd: and this is where the, the. The geography of the train kind of got messed up. Well, really got messed up because after he kicks her off the train, we have that moment where they leave her alone and then we see him come down outside the window.

Yeah. Right. And we see, Oh, he’s not dead. And he’s going 

Craig: to. W that moment too is, is really spooky. Cause he’s mast and kind of bloody, but it’s also like all of a sudden he’s like the amazing 

Todd: spice because was like he’s upside down and stuff. He turns right side up outside the window and then she ends up wandering through the train because a couple of people come in and say, Hey.

They have coffee and there’s stuff. Why don’t you come join the rest of the group? That’s all huddled apparently at the other end of the tree. So we see her leave and the next scene is the cheese backstage. Now we know that this stage is supposed to be at the end of the train because when the conductor comes through to check things out, looking for David, God, looking for David Copperfield or not finding him, then when they think he’s the killer.

He goes to the, behind the stage to that back door. And it’s the end of the train. Right. He looks out and he sees the backtracks. Right. So how did she transport? I have, no, you can do the back end. It made no sense. There were 

Craig: other, the weird plot holes too. There was one guy, her boyfriend Mo how the hell did Moe die?

Like he was just sitting there

people. I have 

Todd: no idea that made no sense. Well, she finds that David Copperfield in fact is also dead because. She looks through some papers that he has and sees, I guess, clippings and pictures of him to realize, okay, well maybe this isn’t the guy at the same time, the door of the magic cabinet behind him with the sword cabinet opens up and I knew this was happening.

Yeah. I knew somebody who’s going to find a body in the sword chair with sword stab through it. I thought they were going to over it earlier, but, 

Craig: and I, and I figured it would be him. I figured it would be David Copperfield. I thought that it was too obvious. Oh. Plus ever since they had thought that it was him, he just totally disappeared.

Like he wasn’t popping up anywhere. Ominously. He was just gone. So I figured it was going to be him. And it was. And so she runs to try to find the conductor and say, Oh, it’s not him. It’s not him. And she finds the conductor in that cage room again. And she sits down across from him and, um, he kind of takes her hands, but then he clutches her hands kind of violently and she looks up and it’s a masked figure.

And this is the real killer and reveal that I really wasn’t 

Todd: expecting. I wasn’t either. It was, it was quite good. The reveal was, was good. Again, the geography is totally messed up because somehow she jumps from the very end of the train again, to the back to the very front, without passing through anybody.

But yeah, it was a good reveal and it turns out that the guy was the magician’s assistant the whole time, which is a possibility that briefly 

Craig: flashed through my head. It didn’t mind. I didn’t think about it for a second 

Todd: after the kill, I believe it was the one in the bathroom. The next shot is backstage with David Copperfield playing with the swords and the sword cabinet and sheets walks in.

And it was just an interesting entrance. Gotcha. Which came right after a kill, which briefly made me think, Oh, maybe that’s it. Which of course I completely dismissed because. How could it be her? 

Craig: Right. And it, it just turned out that Kenny, the guy that they had played the prank on was in drag as the magician’s assistant this whole time.

Yeah. Pretty convincing drag. Now I will say at one point, at one point there was a time when David Copperfield was like, I made my decision. Assistant disappeared before, but now I need to bring her back. And so he like pulls this sheet up above his head and he lowers it again. And it’s her. And as her head, neck and shoulders appeared, I thought she’s kind of 

Todd: manly.

It’s kind of a managed super, but you kind of think, well, it’s a model thing or whatever, and, and super skinny. It was 

Craig: just a fleeting thought. I did not 

Todd: see the twist coming. Yeah. It was a good twist. Uh, and they, you know, surprisingly they’ve really already had their final battle essentially. So this one goes pretty quickly.

He, and I thought it was pretty 

Craig: creepy. Yeah, it was. And they kind of, he kind of, you know, she says, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Um, you know, for this prank or whatever. And, but he seemingly was kind of wanting to relive it.

Kiss me kiss me, kiss me,

kiss me.

And you see the flashbacks connecting the two, which you totally don’t need, but you know, they put the pieces together. And so she does kiss him. And just like before, when he had almost kissed the corpse in the beginning, He flips out in the same way that he had before starts flailing his arms, spinning around screaming 

Todd: and conveniently.

There are some. Something hanging there that he could take off 

Craig: his Cape. I think he like threw his Cape up and he’s kind of like tangled in that next. I thought it was me too. I was like, where did this come from? 

Todd: I’m pretty sure. Yeah. It was a total flashback, which was kind of cool. Right. And, uh, at the moment that connector comes in at just the right times to shuffle and put those, those great almost cartoon has shovel.

Clanging noises hits them a couple of times, knocks him out of the train and they happened to be going over a bridge. And he falls down into what I can imagine is the cold freezing waters of the Canadian North. I don’t know about you, but it was a little sad. 

Craig: It, it surprised me because I thought with that ending, what would have been so easy to do would have just been to have him splash in the water.

Um, and then, you know, he could have come back into. SQL. Um, but he doesn’t land in the water. He, you know, it’s a huge, you know, train bridges are really tall and he falls onto the ice and you see a big thud and you know, his limbs kind of go all akimbo. Uh, and then he floats down the river. And that’s it, right?

That’s the end of the 

Todd: movie. And it’s, it’s an interesting, and almost, I don’t know, maybe you didn’t feel that way, but for me, the amount of time that they spent dwelling on his lifeless body sliding through the snowy icy river, out into nothingness made kind of a statement, it was sad. It brought you back to this damaged guy instead of the murderer, you know, he brought you back to his motives.

Wow. It is kind of a whole tragic story of this horrible point, gone awry on a mentally ill unstable person. 

Craig: Well, and I, you know, that’s not terribly uncommon. I mean, a lot of these villains are kind of tragic in their way. And, and this is, you know, he was Jamie Lee. Curtis says something along the lines of, I tried to go visit him after the prank and they wouldn’t let me see him because they said he was.

Stable. He had killed somebody before, maybe it was an accident, but they didn’t know. So he was already troubled. And then, you know, he’s a geeky kid and they play this traumatic prank on him. Um, so in a sense, I mean, they’re, it’s extreme, but they’re kind of getting there, come up and it’s a little bit, um, you know, it’s, it’s like, uh, Again, if you haven’t seen Friday the 13th, which I can’t imagine you’ve seen it, but you know, it’s, it’s the same thing in the original.

The mom is seeking revenge for the counselors, letting her child die in, in the sequel and all the sequels. Really. It’s kind of Jason returning to avenge his mother in a sense, and they are kind of tragic figure. So in that way, it’s kind of sad. In the fact that it’s an eighties horror movie, I’m not going to lose any sleep.

Todd: He didn’t touch your heart like a touch. Well, things I really liked about this movie. I love the bit of business at the beginning that we had mentioned between Carney and his, his wife in a wheelchair. I couldn’t tell her so 

Craig: I can tell if, if it was his wife or if it was just. Somebody that he works with, who they share an affectionate relationship, she’s in a wheelchair and they kind of dance together for a little bit.

It’s a sweet moment. And then he asks, are you sure you’re not going to come with us? And he leans down and I thought that he was going to give her a kiss, but he didn’t. And that’s kind of what made me think. Well, maybe they’re just tight. You know, maybe they’re just good friends, but it was a nice you’re right.

It was a nice little scene. 

Todd: It was unnecessary, but it was a nice touch. And to have her in a wheelchair, it’s just not something that you see that often in these films doing, especially in that era. Right. 

Craig: And who knows maybe the actress was in a wheelchair. Maybe it was a character choice. I don’t know.

But the interaction between the two of them was sweet and it kind of established his character as kind of this genteel fatherly on, uh, grandfatherly, even, 

Todd: maybe. And that’s another thing I really like. I like this sort of folksiness that happened, you know, there’s a lot of business early on between him and the conduct.

Well, he’s the conductor, I guess Kim and the engine operator and the coal shovelers. Their faces are dirty. Like cool would be, I guess it’s kind of funny, but there’s a lot of folksy dialogue between them where for a while, it almost seems to be like, they’re apologizing for the fact that this movie features a train.

Almost seems like the writer is thinking. Who the hell writes trains anymore. Right. And they’ve got, it was sort of explain it. 

Craig: Nope. Pull down the grade. She’s really beautiful that old engine, they don’t make them like that anymore. Thank God for a little favors. 

Todd: You’re going to see a train on the 

Craig: cover of time 

Todd: magazine.

Craig: One of these days, I’m going to be in that cab and a picture I’ll be up in the Concord and you’ll be on welfare. You’re digging your own grave, but that shallow career-wise, what’s the price of gas right now. Pretty soon. The only way we’ll get that bear can some places you load on a flat car. Yes. Will be driving the train.

You can cook, you can take a shower, you can watch TV and buy a gun, kick your bang, a left. If you feel like it,

Todd: to the point where Southern twang starts to kind of come out in their voices and they’re dropping the GS at the end of their words. The most odd and charming and strange bits of business for them to be talking about the train so much. There was an interesting moment too, between Moe and doc. That was so weird.

You know, what exactly what you’re talking about, right? It was so weird. Moe’s complaining about his girlfriend. Who’s Jamie Lee, Curtis, Jamie Lee Curtis. She kind of goes out. I don’t remember what happened, but he gives them this really nice, sincere look in his eye and says, she’ll get over it. 

Craig: You know, dark.

I’m not so sure this time. Well, if she does, she always 

Todd: got me, you know 

Craig: what

Todd: I mean? Right. And 

Craig: it’s, it’s totally like, I keep expecting it to be the ha punch you in the shoulder kind of thing. They just that’s. They just leave it at that, like, It was weird. 

Todd: It 

Craig: was very good. You know, I guess they’re a really tight group of 

Todd: friends and you kind of mentioned it earlier, but it seems like all the men on this planet on this train or in this fraternity are just creepy predators.

Yeah. You know, they’re all 

Craig: well, and the girls are all kind of total slots. Yeah. Except for Jamie Lee Curtis. Right. Which, and maybe, uh, vanity the black girl, she was kind of nice. The rest of them were just, well, she’s the one who didn’t have 

Todd: on your wish that moment. It was great. I don’t know what, what was your final impression of this film?

But I 

Craig: think that it is a perfectly fine slasher movie. And I think that if you like eighties slashers, you’ll like this movie, if you like the original, uh, Friday the 13th, if you like Halloween, it’s, it’s fairly typical. It has some unique twists that you don’t see in all of them. I’m a little bit surprised that I hadn’t seen it before and that I don’t see, you mentioned more often.

Cause 

Todd: it’s not that well and the big names in it. Yeah. Honestly, it’s a, I think it’s a cut above. It’s not a cut above Halloween by any means. I don’t think it’s as good as Halloween, but it’s the fog and prom night. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s way better than either of those. I thought I enjoyed it. Well, happy new year, everybody happy new year.

Craig: Oh yeah, it said at new year’s 

Todd: I see new year, we worked at it. We hope that you’ve enjoyed the podcast. This year. We have many more episodes planned for 2016. Please. If you enjoyed this, share it with a friend, check us out on Facebook and on our website. It also we’re on iTunes. Now we got iTunes and Stitcher out there.

If you want to download the stuff, your device and listen to our sweet, sweet voices in your ear, you can do that. We will see you next year. And until then I’m Todd and I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This unique tale, imported from Finland, deals with the idea of an evil Santa Claus in an entirely original way.

Rare Exports (2010)

Episode 14, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

I’m Todd I’m Craig. We’re bringing you this week’s edition here just a few days before the holidays and our present to you as a tale from Finland called Rare Exports: A Christmas Tale. Uh, Craig, I think you were the one who was most interested in seeing this movie. Where did you first hear it about it? I read about it somewhere on Bloody Disgusting or, or something, um, around the time that it came out.

And I always thought that it looked interesting and I had just never gotten around to watching it and we had to pick stuff for, uh, for this. And I was kind of just looking through. Christmas themed horror stuff. And this one popped up, I read a few reviews and it got really, really positive reviews. So I thought, you know, let’s save this.

So we have something good to go out on this year. Yeah. It’s pretty appropriate. A movie about Santa Claus course. We did a movie about the anti Santa Claus last week. And this, this movie really has a lot of parallels in many ways to the Krampus story. Doesn’t it? Yeah, it really does. I mean, especially in the beginning, The way that the movie starts out is we see this kind of corporate drilling sites, I guess, on the top of a mountain and they have drilled down and they found ice down there.

And the guy who’s in charge of all that. See at first I thought we drilled into some old tree or something, but no, this level of sawdust 65 foot thick, I mean, it doesn’t that it doesn’t make sense. He does in the olden days, people used to store ice by encasing it in cell dust. Yeah. But what do you mean?

What are you trying to say? This mom is like giant eyes box for storing what drill deeper. And you will see that drill in as we speak. And these two little kids who, one of them, PhD, who ends up being our main character, they’re kind of spying and seeing what’s going on. And he immediately comes to the conclusion that what they must have found is Santa Claus now where he came to that conclusion from, I don’t really know, but he goes home and he finds this book that he looks through that kind of it’s, it’s the truth about Santa Claus and.

It’s much like the Krampus tale, you know, he opens it and he’s looking through the pictures and you see these kind of scary images of Santa Claus. He’s horned. He’s not the jolly old fat guy that, uh, we have come to know and love there’s pictures of him, uh, stealing children, boiling children and cauldrons.

And so in that regard, yes, very, very, very similar even similar in look. Yeah, it really is. Cause uh, the Santa clauses in here have horns. The, of course they’re wearing a little more of the traditional sand outfits in some pictures, but some that seem to maybe go back for, for years into the older lore, just to have him looking like of like a Crump has devil kind of like what we’re talking about.

And, uh, and this is up in Finland, uh, pretty much at the border. It looks like between Finland and Russia and, uh, the people in the mountain who were doing the excavating. Are on the Russian side and the boys had, had to cut through, it was actually Petri and his friend  yeah. Or USO you saw Ru had to cut through the fence to get through and in there.

So this is an interesting part of the world that I’m not very familiar with this lifestyle of race finished people way out in the cold, out in the middle of nowhere. You know, it’s almost like when you think of Siberia, this is where they are. Uh, and there. Profession is to basically harvest reindeer.

Right. Which is just kind of cute. It’s another Christmasy thing with this all sort of ties together. Right. I guess if, if Santa Claus is going to be frozen in a mountain somewhere, he’s going to be frozen in a mountain somewhere where there’s tons of rain. Uh, and, uh, and so this family pediatry just has his father and.

All we really see are men in this entire. It just hit me. Yeah, it is. I don’t remember if there were any women at all and it doesn’t say what happened to the mother. You get the sense that. There’s been some tragedy she’s she’s died. I presume. Uh, but you’re right. All of the characters are male. I don’t think if there’s a single woman in the film, at least there’s not even a girl.

Yeah. Recognizable. There comes a point where a Patri is. It has a list of his friends because he’s calling his. To see if his friends are okay and we’ll get to why in a second. And one of the names on the list was Elsa. So I guess, I guess there are girls or women somewhere, and one of the other main male characters talks about his wife.

So I guess there are women around, but they are not in the film at least not recognizably. So, I mean, I guess some of those extras. Yeah. And I don’t know. Well, it’s a very masculine type movie, you know, it’s a very male. Centered movie there. You’ve got these people out there in this rugged, harsh environment.

Uh, and the men are clearly the ones who were bringing the bread home. Right. Because they’re the ones who are hurting in these reindeer and hunting them. Uh, it turns out that, uh, Patrice father  is the butcher a bit basically of the clan, if you will, the village, I guess, is what it is. Yeah. It is a really interesting setting because it’s so remote and it’s so limited.

I mean, uh, poetry and his dad, I guess they’re there kind of as a little village, but they kind of live, I guess. A little bit out on the outskirts of that. Uh, and it’s just really secluded and it’s really rustic. It’s a very different scenario. It’s not something that I’ve ever seen a movie really set against a backdrop like that, unless you want it like the thing or the thing.

Yeah. I kept thinking of the thing actually, you know, just watching this and it’s starting to get cold now too. Get it’s like watching the thing, you know, there’s never a scene where there isn’t snow blowing around and. People wearing fur coats and breathing in the cold. It must have been a pain to shoot this thing, but yet then again, I guess a podiatry can run outside without any pants on, which I thought was hilarious.

But then I’m thinking, you know, this is the environment that they’re used to. I, I, I certainly wouldn’t want to be running around in my drawers out in the blizzard, but I guess that’s, you know, that’s the life they leave. It’s funny. And so this particular time of year, apparently when the reindeer all. I guess migrate or move in their herd, uh, towards the camp.

And, uh, what did they call it? The Roundup. Yeah. So, uh, they have a very large pen created there and they’ve gathered again, that’s like all the men and all the adult, all the young boys out to this pen where the fence is electrified and they’re basically waiting for the reindeer to come across so that they can herd them into this pan and shoot them.

And this is going to be like probably this one, Roundup is going to be. Their sustenance for the rest of the year. That’s certainly what they make it seem like. Yeah. Their export of this meat is their yearly salary. Right. And from what I understand, I mean, uh, reindeer meat is a very viable food source. So I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s realistic in that regard.

They, uh, they, you know, they have this huge pin set up and it’s electrified electrified, uh, and they’re waiting for the rain gear to show up and. It appears that they’re going to show up on cue, but instead of a large herd showing up, it’s just a couple of stragglers. And so they go try to look for the rest of the herd, which they find right at the entrance to the border.

But they’ve all been slaughtered. And at first they think that maybe it was wolves because the Russians, uh, up on the mountain have been doing a lot of blasting and they think that maybe that’s driven the wolves down. And in particular, that hole in the fence that pediatry and a USO had cut earlier, they surmise, Oh, these are Russian wolves.

These are the wolves that came through the fence. And so. They don’t know that the kids cut that hole. They assume that it’s the fault of those guys on the mountain. And so they cross into the border, which is a pretty big deal, apparently, apparently for them to do. But they cross over there anyway, to find these guys and give them a, what, what and demand about $85,000, which was there.

Rough calculation of how much money they lost. And I guess you don’t need that much money to kind of live out they’re in the Tundra where they are 85,000 probably goes a really long way. I would imagine. And then of course, when they get there, the guys are gone. There’s this giant hole in the crater and they realize, Oh, they’ve not been doing seismic testing.

They’ve been doing some kind of excavating of something here. And as you said, It seems like a pediatry for whatever reason decides that they’re excavating Santa Claus, which it turns out to be. Right. And meanwhile, pediatry has been sitting up at night watching outside of his window because he believes that Santa Claus is now on the loose.

And he has now this image of Santa clauses. As a Punisher and one morning close to Christmas, maybe even Christmas Eve, uh, he wakes up and he realizes that he’d fallen asleep on his watch and he looks out, he goes outside and looks and the Christmas lights around his room have been unplugged and there are footprints outside his window.

So he’s convinced. That Santa Claus is spying on him and the other children. And he’s not really far off. And he even sees some bloody footprints under one of the reindeer that has that kind of claw, like look and at earlier in one of the books, we’d seen a picture that said Santas footsteps in the snow, right.

Walking barefoot in the snow, they looked a little claw, like just like that. The movie did a pretty good job of setting the scene so that you got the significance of each of these events. Yes. With that what’s essentially, I think that the credit scene, isn’t it, when he’s flipping through that book more or less and, uh, looking at things.

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. It’s right. It’s right there in the beginning. So, you know, from the beginning, what you’re getting into, but the movie does a good job of kind of playing it. Clever too. You kind of think, you know, what’s going on. Uh, and then towards the end, there’s an interesting twist, but that’s right real before we get there, poetry has that interesting stick, a little bit of business with his advent calendar, as it gets closer to Christmas, he he’s taped the 24 closed and he, then he goes to the East.

Staples at closed, you get the sense. He really does not want it to happen. Right. Is that what you were thinking? He doesn’t want Santa Claus to come. He said, yeah. He’s yeah, I guess, you know, and in the mind of a child that would seem rational. We just won’t open that door. We won’t open the 24 door cause we don’t want Santa to come.

Do you think he was always that way or that it was just the, his stumbling across this book? That Santa was bad about the time that he’s. Sort of surmised that these guys in the mountain are excavating Santa. Yeah. That’s the suggestion that I got was that he has now realized the truth about Santa and that the truth is kind of dark and scary.

And so that he’s very much on, on the watch now, anyway, what happens is later is that his father has set up this Wolf trap earlier. Outside of the window, which apparently is illegal to do. Uh, but it’s a big hole in the ground with a bunch of spikes in it and a suspended, a Boar’s head over it with an Apple in its mouth.

One of those really cute moments. There’s, there’s a lot of interesting humor. I think it probably. Maybe there was more humor in this movie than we got because of the trends. I have a feeling that’s the case. Uh, I mean, I, the subtitles were fine and you could definitely keep up with the, what was going on, but there would be, of course, I don’t know anything about the intricacies of the finished language.

I don’t know, but I noticed that there were some times when the dad. Or, or any other character would say something and the subtitle would be very brief. It seemed like they were saying more than what we were actually given. And I don’t know if that’s the case or not, but there still was some cute little humor, particularly towards the end.

Um, but, uh, I read. On a comment board somewhere, somebody had posted that they had watched this with their Finnish girlfriend and the finished girlfriend really kind of delighted in a lot of the Finnish humor. So maybe we missed out on a little bit of it, but there’s some there probably did. I think there’s probably a lot that just got lost in translation, just because of the, and not even just the words, just maybe the, a quirkier sense of humor, a different sense of humor than what we’re used to here, but it was kind of funny, you know, he’s eating the Apple, then he sticks the rest of it in this Hogshead.

Suspended over for the bait. Uh, and, uh, lo and behold the catch something, but it’s not a Wolf. Right. And, uh, you know, the, the young boy, Pete Petri is very curious because he’s convinced that it is probably Santa Claus, but the dad tries to keep him away. He doesn’t want him to see what’s in there, but soon the dad’s friend arrives and they go out and pull out.

Something in a tarp, they take it into the dad’s butcher shop and lay it out on the table. And they at first think that it must be one of the people from the dig site or maybe one of them says one of those crazy folks from the mountains. I don’t know. They’ve just got like crazy, you know, mallet, hobos, I guess.

I don’t know, but. From the USA no less. So there was an American passport that didn’t look anything like the guy, right. For all intents and purposes, it appears that they’ve captured Santa Claus. I mean, aside from the fact that he’s, he’s a scrawny old man, he looks like the traditional Santa Claus. He’s got the long white beard kind of the Haggard face.

Uh, and that’s what I’m thinking is they got him here. He is. But what I thought was interesting was that. As scary as he had been played up to be, this guy didn’t seem all that threatening. They didn’t have, you know, he, they thought he was dead at first and their solution too, because putting out the Wolf traps is illegal.

Um, you know, they’ve got all that butcher stuff here. It’s kind of a sinister moment in time. Uh, their plan, apparently it’s just to dispose of this and, and, and pretend like nothing has happened. But when the dad goes to Saul, Santa Claus, his arm off, uh, he jerks his arm away.

And they, they check his, his breathing, they put a knife up under his nose and he is in fact breathing and he’s awake. Okay. And he’s smelling, smelling the children every time poetry comes up to the window and he kind of gets a sniff and his eyes open up a little bit. And there’s, there’s a lot of that interesting that he smells the ch almost like the child catcher from, uh, Chitty Chitty, bang, bang, bang, and sinister.

But again, not particularly threatening. I mean, they’ve, they’ve got him, uh, contained and you know, he kind of gives them, they try to speak to him in Russian and they try to speak to him in English. Eventually he doesn’t appear to understand anybody and he gives some threatening side looks and whatnot, but they’re able to keep him contained and eventually they tie them up.

But before they do that, Petrie is looking in the window. His dad turns around and sees him and he’s in trouble. So Patri goes running off, down the street and his dad goes after him in the car. But before his dad gets to them, a police car pulls up and Patri gets into the car and that, so the dad follows the police car into the town where the dad.

Says to the cop. Oh, everything’s fine. There’s nothing to worry about. And the cop says something like, well, if that’s the case, you’re the only ones because I’d been out in the village all night long. And apparently there has been a crime spree of sorts, uh, in the village. They’re great. Uh, everything that can produce heat, basically radiators stoves, hairdryers have all been taken and been missing and they kind of write that off, except that, uh, USOs dad finds, I guess he’s a potato farmer or at least that’s part of his deal finds that.

His whole storehouse of potatoes that was kept in sacks. Nobody’s taken the potatoes, but they’ve dumped them all out of the sacks and all the sacks are gone. So you’re getting this sort of funny, you know, as your mind puts it together a little bit. Okay. We know that somebody is going to warm something up and we know that the sacks are gone and you think of Sachs and Santa, and you’re still not quite sure what’s going on, but it is a little funny in and of itself.

Yeah, it is. And so they’re, they’re talking to the Kopan pitcher. He asks. One of the dad’s friends, you know, where is your son? You know, this other little boy that Patri is friends with. And he says, Oh, it must not be up yet. So Patrick goes upstairs and in the bed where the boys should be. There’s this creepy.

Kind of similarly have a child, like, I want to say doll, but it’s creepier than that. It seems kind of more natural. Like it’s made out of earth and twigs or something. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s a little bit creepy. And, uh, the, the, the kid’s dad is not particularly concerned. He said, Oh, he’ll show up, you know, by, by nightfall or whatever, but that.

Shows to Peachtree that he is right. That the kids have been snatched up by Santa Claus. Yeah. But he goes home to, to confirm this. He gets on the phone and he makes a list of his friends. It’s so cute. Now this little boy is, is really cute and he really carries a lot of the movie. I mean, he’s the central character, the, the grown men.

Certainly play an integral role and, and, uh, their performance is perfectly fine too, but I, this little kid is just really precocious and, uh, you’re kind of on the, you know, you kind of suspend that disbelief and you are kind of in the mindset of the kid too. And it’s, it’s nice in that way. It’s, it’s a sweet kind of nostalgic kinda, he’s one of these sort of quiet kids.

That’s quietly taking in what’s going on and always seems to be able to say the right things at the right time, just because. He’s almost got it all figured out in his head or at least you think he does. It’s so neat. How early on he in preparation for the 20 for the Christmas day has armored himself with all of the armor type things he can find.

So he’s wearing like a life vest or something. He has his helmet on, like he’s going to play hockey and he’s even, uh, duct tape, some cardboard to was, but I mean, he’s just sort of walking around. Like this goofball and his dad even asked him, he was like, what is, what are you doing here? And he’s like, Oh, it’s just a game that my friend and I play upstairs.

Yeah, it is cute. And he’s he’s and he’s packing heat too. You know, his, his dad has given him a small rifle. I presume to protect himself from wolves. Should any wolves up here, but it’s, it’s a cute little image of this little boy. He’s. I mean, what would you say? Like nine, maybe nine and he, you know, he’s all decked out in what he imagines would protect him in his time of need.

And he’s got this, this rifle strapped to his back. It’s a funny, cute, cute image. It is cute. Once he confirms that the kids are gone, he tries to get the adults attention. And they’re sort of distracted by this idea. And vague sort of come to this notion that this is Santa Claus. He’s the one who con who suggests it pretty much right.

And says, Oh, they were digging. That’s who they were excavating up here. So these guys, well, the kid basically comes in and suggest that at Santa Claus. And they’re also willing to go along with that. Initially they say, no, that’s just fairy tale stuff. But this, this guy, Santa that they have captured when they captured him, he was wearing.

A coat and it, it was one of the workman’s coat from the site. And so they just discarded at first, which is another funny thing. You’ve got Santa Claus running around naked for a good while. Uh, interesting image, this, you know, kind of frail old guy, totally nude. And they’re just poking him and stuff.

Who’s your

What did you dig inside the mountain? But eventually from this code, they hear something, a noise and they find a walkie talkie in there. And on the other end of the walkie talkie is the American who seems to be the boss. You know, the guy who’s funded this project or whatever. And he’s saying is Santa’s sleigh ready or, or something along those lines is the cargo ready.

Um, and so they figure, well, It must be. Uh, and the plan that they hatch is, you know, these people were responsible for us losing our income for the year. So we’ll sell Santa’s back to them to cover our losses. Uh, and that’s, that’s what they plan to do. And you know, this is the point what I’m expecting.

Okay, there’s going to be, he’s going to escape. There’s going to be, you know, he’s going to grow phase is going to bite these people or whatever. Nope. The next shot is this totally cornball shot of him and a giant cage in the back of this truck. They’ve dressed him in a Santa suit and everything, and they’re driving them out to meet a helicopter at the storage location of this, uh, company in order to make an exchange for $85,000.

Right. And one of, one of the guys. Wants to demand much more money. He says, you know, if this is the real original Santa Claus, somebody is going to be getting rich off this, but a PhD, his dad is just satisfied to get, you know, to recover their losses. So they meet this American guy there who he was in the opening scene and he was the one that was so excited at what they had found.

And he had said something back then. Always believe always, he kind of said that to himself and then he’s talking to the man and he says, my wildest dream since childhood is about to come true, we’re standing on a sacred grave. So apparently this has kind of been his life mission to find Santa Claus. And now he has.

And so he meets them there and he wants to know who they are, but, you know, they’re like, it doesn’t matter, you know, we’ve got what you want, just give us the money. And it seems like he’s pretty agreeable to it. Like he doesn’t really object. Uh, who knows he may have had to pay more to the other guys. I don’t know.

Um, but you’re absolutely right. This is the part where I thought, okay, now Santa is going to show his true colors. He’s going to bust out of this thing. He’s going to be crazy, powerful, and scary, but the guy goes up right up to the cage and looks at him. And Santa kind of gets this flash in his eye,

put down your lemons and smile. That’s nice as your can move slowly and do exactly as I say, can you guys just get the Haley? Yeah. Okay. This is not Sant work. It’s one of Santa’s little helpers and that is when. For me up to that point, I enjoyed the movie overall, but I felt like up to that point, the bill had been pretty slow and it was, you know, interesting, but I felt like it was a little bit drawn out at sea.

I was wishing that we would get some more action a little bit quicker. And then here, when this twist came, I thought, well, that’s it. You know, this is at least really interesting. I didn’t expect it. I didn’t see it coming at all. And, uh, what happens is, you know, they kind of look around all of a sudden, they see these figures darting around in the shadows and the dark, the guy who was flying the helicopter that delivered the American guy, he gets dispatched kind of off screen.

You just kind of see his hat come flying into screen screen, and you hear him screaming. And then it becomes clear that all of these shadowy guys around. Are just like the guy that they’ve captured. They’re these scrawny decrepit, old men. And apparently these are the elves, which begs the question. If these are sand as little elves, how big is Santa?

Right. Exactly. And this is the point where it gets totally sort of screw ball in that it would be a screwball comedy. If it wasn’t still such a more subdued finish kind of realm, you know, maybe this is as close as we get to screwball comedy in the film world. But, uh, the kid walks up to even. It looks like a giant hangar and the hangar doors on it on the hanger door is painted 24.

Right. And it’s virtually identical to the 24 on his advent calendar that he has been stapled. He’s had stapled up hilarious little. It is hilarious. And you know, it was really kind of a cool set piece. You know, then you’ve got this little tiny kids standing in front of these huge doors and he just says, The last door and, uh, they go in there and, uh, they see that all of the stolen appliances, the heaters, the stoves, all of that has been set up in a circle and the little boy says.

The elves made a nest for Santa Claus and it pans up and you see that within the circle of all these appliances are sacks moving sacks. So obviously the children have been gathered around and it’s this huge, enormous block of ice with two enormous horns protruding from the top. And apparently this is Santa Claus and the elves.

You know, what they were doing was they’re, they’re throwing him out so he can do his thing. And, and they’ve gathered all the children from around in front of him. And this is funny because this is the point where the adults they’re all barricaded, barricaded themselves into this building because the elves have approached him from all direction or outside.

They know they’re pretty screwed. There’s no way they’re going to get out with those elves surrounding them. And they all have like pick axes and things like that. I mean, it’s, it’s kind of, even though these are old men, they clearly can hold their own. Sure. And there’s a lot of them. Oh, it sounds like, you know, it’s like a horse.

And so do you think they were frozen with Santa or do you think they were just sort of, no, I debated that, that part. Doesn’t never really get to explain it’s I guess it’s kind of a plot hole. I have no idea if they were also excavated or if they, you know, they just didn’t have anything to do because Santa Claus.

Was trapped that could, I don’t know. That could be that they just sprung into action when, when needed, well, at any rate, the kids, the one who comes up with the whole plan and he just sort of jumps into high gear and he’s like, trust me, listen to me, those ELLs, aren’t going to leave the hanger while the kids are still here.

So we need to get the kids out. It’s hilarious. You know, the guys are all kind of panicking and they’re, they’re, you know, they’re trying to stack up the ovens and stuff to barricade and keep the elves out. And the kids shouting, listen to me, listen to me. And they walk right. So he takes his shot gun and fires it into the air and gets their attention.

And then he just totally takes charge. Well, that, that part itself is hilarious. Cause he sh he fires a shot gun and they all turn and look at him and it’s just sort of this slow motion zoom in on him. Where it kind of turns he looks and he, and of course it’s not smoke coming out of his mouth, but it’s a condensation from his breath or whatever, but he’s just got that.

Bad-ass sort of diehard look to them. Yeah. And it is hilarious because at that point he just takes charge and the guy, the men listen to him, they’re going to follow his plan. And he’s got as not plausible as this whole thing really is. It’s funny and it’s fun to watch it is. So, I mean, to make a long story short, the guy breaks out.

Uh, one of the guys, uh, gets out and gets past the L’s by dropping gingerbread read along the way there’s been a running gingerbread, gag her out, gingerbread coming out of their pockets apparently. And then he gets into a helicopter, pulls the kids out in the giant sacks with, with a giant sack and a giant net, which, uh, then Pietro is actually riding.

Uh, as it swings through the air and of course draws the elves away and eventually into that pen, right. The reindeer pen, which was a great idea. Right. And meanwhile, uh, the other adults are back at the warehouse or hanger or whatever it is. Coincidentally, there happened to be a large stockpile of explosives in there also.

So they are setting up explosives all around the big block of ice and drilling explosives into the ice. And, uh, once they’ve got that all set up. They saw off the Santa Claus’s horns, which are enormous. I mean, they’re so big. Like they, there is like as big as the truck they put in, they put them in the back of a bed of a truck and they’re just these huge, enormous horns.

Um, and, uh, what happens is. While, uh, poetry is gathering. Of course he has to, when they get there to it’s his idea to go to the pen. But when they get there, he realizes that the gate is closed. And so he calls on his walkie-talkie the guy who’s flying the plane and says the Gates closed. And the guy says, well, it was a good plan, too bad.

It’s not going to work out. And the kid says, no, I’m going down there. I’m gonna open it. And, uh, the guy says, but you can’t, I won’t be able to land to pick you up. And he just in a very, you know, Bruce Willis diehard moment used, I’m not coming back and drops down into the pin, very heroically. And he opens the gate and this huge hoard of zombie, like Santa clauses are approaching and he just gets on the walkie one more time and says, Tell my dad, what I did so good.

It’s silly. But at the same time, it’s cute. It’s cute. This kid, you know, the whole time he’s been preoccupied with, you know, he’s asked his dad blatantly, am I a good boy? You know, am I a good boy? Am I a bad boy? You know, would it, would it be better if I just. Disappeared and went away. It seems like he’s really wanted to prove himself to his dad and as corny as it is, he gets his chance.

And it’s a sweet little moment there at the end. It really is. Uh, and then they blow up Santa and just sort of like killing the boss or killing Dracula or something like that. Once sand has completely exploded. The elves stop doing what they’re doing is broken, right? Yeah. For existence. So they just kind of stumble around and they’re just standing there in the pen.

And these guys do a quick calculation, like, so, uh, how much for one 83,000. So how much for all these? And it was like 16 point something million, right. And the next scene, I’m sorry. I was totally not expecting it. I see it coming at all either. And it’s hilarious. And it tied back into the title. So, well, I thought that the ending was really clever, kind of dark and weird, but it might as well be how this movie’s gone.

Yeah, they just, uh, they train these guys to be Santa clauses and ship them all around the world. They train them like on an assembly line. It’s really hilarious. They give them dolls and like a, a wrapped box. And Beatrice dad sits in a chair in front of them. With poetry on his lap and like models, the behavior, and, you know, they’re trying to learn.

And, um, sometimes they mess up and have to be corrected, but if they do a good job, they get their Santa hat and then it cuts to the end where they are just boxing up these Santa clauses and these big wooden crates. Like literally that are stamped with the words, rare exports, uh, live contents from the original land plan of Santa or something.

I mean, what a great marketing deal. Apparently the guy who flew the helicopter before is clearly, you know, an excellent pilot because now he’s, he’s piloting this big cargo plane and I, you know, It’s their happy ending, you know, not only did they recover their losses, but they’re making tons of money now instead of exporting reindeer meat exporting.

I guess

as far as Tanzania and beyond, that’s really funny. It was, it was very much a monsters incorporated kind of ending where it now, instead of scaring the children, they’re going out and giving joy to children, you know, I, uh, it, it was an interesting ending, I guess, you know, I was looking up a little bit about this movie and.

The movie was spurred on by a short yeah. Apparently it was popular on the web. I didn’t see it. I haven’t seen it 8,003. Yeah. I guess there was, there was an original short, and then it was pretty successful and then they made kind of a CQL short. Um, and then somebody proposed the idea of doing a feature film and then they ran with it.

Yeah. So, I mean, you can kind of tell that. I get something this goofy would come from origins like that, you know, something a little shorter, a little, probably something that set a tone right in this movie just then took that tone and expanded it across a whole. Right. And the runtime at 80 some minutes, I mean, it’s a, it’s a short movie, but it almost, and I don’t want to be critical cause I did like it, but it almost felt like it would have maybe been more suited for an hour.

The beginning, especially just seemed to kind of. Be a little bit drawn out. Not that things weren’t happening, not that we weren’t getting more information. Um, it was just kind of slow. I was kind of waiting for the action to pick up, but overall I think that I had really high expectations because this got really, really good reviews.

I mean, around the world, it got really good reviews and Roger Ebert gave it four and a half. Out of five stars. I think it won lots of awards internationally. So I think that I, and you know, we’ve been putting this off to save it for the last one. My hopes are really high. Uh, and I, I think I was a little bit disappointed, but only because.

I had had such great expectations. It’s not a bad movie. No, and it’s not really a horror movie either. I mean, it is, but it’s, it’s really taint. It’s very tame and it has that sort of adventure element to it as well. And I think the slow build also is not something that you normally get. You didn’t have a scare at the beginning.

You didn’t have it set up immediately that people were dying or there was this horrible thing out there going on. It took a while. And I think I would have had. Less patience for that slow build if the environment and the characters and their situation. Wasn’t so interesting. Yeah, I agree. A hundred percent cause it was foreign, but other parts of it, I really felt for this group of people whose livelihood for the year, over the course of a couple hours, slightly out the window and they do a really good job.

I think of setting up that relationship between, uh, Pietro pediatry and his dad Rono when they’re at that point, he burns the meat, you know, in, for Christmas dinner. Uh, and all, he really has a gingerbread that he’s made and they have a little bit about it was his mom’s, but Raul was very distracted. He’s looking out the window.

There are tears in his eyes and yeah. Pediatry is trying to kind of get through to him and trying to say some things. And he’s basically telling him, just go to bed, just go to bed and in a very loving way. Right. But it’s, you know, I guess you have to attribute it to the performance and the direction because it did, you really got.

You did feel for the people and you sense the gravity of this situation for them. You know, the dad is trying to keep his cool, but that’s their yearly income, you know, what are they going to do? You know, it’s, it’s a very serious situation they’re in. And I agree that, uh, the characters were very engaging.

There was so many good things about it. You know, I don’t want to be, again, I don’t want to be critical because there are so many good things about it. I loved the score. I thought the score was beautiful. There were some times, you know, you’re, you’re in this. Set setting with these beautiful picturesque mountains and some really cool shots, some aerial shots.

And, uh, you’ve got kind of this sweeping score, uh, against that setting that I thought was really effective. The cinematography seemed really good. This did not feel like a cheapy movie at all. Not at all. I mean, it felt. You know, like something that people would really put time and effort and probably quite a bit of money into.

So there are a lot of strong points, I think maybe had my expectations and maybe had I gone in with no expectations if I had known nothing about it. Um, maybe I would have, uh, felt a little bit differently. Well, and too, I think the ending does. Fizzle out just a little bit. I was bummed. I was bummed that we didn’t get to see the Santa Claus monster to see the monster it’s in the ice.

And I’m sure that was a deliberate choice on their part, but in the same sense, you didn’t have that level of the final battle against the really supernatural, big, bad guy that you often get. Well in horror movies, but just in general, it’s usually a lot tougher for people in the end. Usually plans kind of go awry pretty much.

This kid’s plans. Worked out, right. He knew what to do. They executed it. They had no trouble executing it and it worked out right. And that’s, you know, that’s all well and good, you know, I don’t need for it to be contrived. You know, I’m fine with that. It’s just, I think that the reveal of the Sante monster was.

Such a cool reveal. I mean, it, it was so massive. Um, but you don’t get, all you get to see is the horns and the horns are very impressive and scary, but then I was thinking, Oh, I can’t wait to see what’s under that ice. I can’t wait to when it cracks out. And there was one moment where the ice does kind of crack and you think, Oh, here it comes here.

It comes. It just doesn’t. And that’s okay. I get it. I understand it as a choice, but a little bit of a letdown, bad guy, you know, it’s a bad guy that we’ve been building up to all this time. Who is just stuck in ice until he’s blown up. And then it turns out that the bad guys that they really have to deal with are just these elf helpers, which as you said before, aside from the fact that there’s so many of them, you get one by itself without a weapon in his hand, you know, a couple people around it doesn’t seem to be that much of a threat.

So. It’s not a super threatening situation that they were in, which, which kind of brings it a little bit more out of the realm of horror maybe. And I wouldn’t say it’s a family film, but it’s pretty darn close. Maybe in the same sense that Krampus was maybe in the same sense that even, even more so than like gremlins or something.

Right. I would say that it’s even less dark than, than those films, you know, we’ve talked before, you know, could you let your kids see this? I think probably a lot of American children would be. Put off by the fact that it’s subtitled, but beyond that, I think that you could show small children this movie.

I mean, there are, and I say small children, you know, like the age of the kid in the movie, eight, nine, 10, there are casualties, but they’re all anonymous characters that you don’t care about. And they there’s nothing really graphic or violent. They’re pretty much all in that always happens off screen.

Right. And, uh, the only Gore of any kind is, you know, when. The original elf falls into the Wolf trap. He’s kind of gored by one of the steaks in there and you see the blood on his skin, but it’s, I mean, it’s, it’s not terribly graphic. There is a fair amount of full frontal nudity, um, with the old Santa clauses.

But beyond that, it does feel pretty family-friendly. I would imagine that. People could let their kids see this. Oh yeah. I’m going to have to look up this one. Legend sometime, you know, and see, we’ve seen several films now that present different takes on the Santa Claus legend and make certain claims about offshoots of that legend and ciliary characters like the Krampus.

Well, this is the true story of Santa and how he came to be. Then now I’m kind of all confused. Yeah. You know, now I really want to get back and see, okay. Do I, is there more than the St Nick that we kind of know? And then of course, you know, the Coca-Cola Santa, right. And, and that’s, I, I would like to as well, you know, I feel like I’ve read some things, you know, I’ve read some of the Krampus lore and I know that, uh, the.

Idea of Santa Claus is relatively universal, but each culture kind of puts their own spin on it. And it really comes as no surprise to me that the origins were almost certainly darker or at least had a darker edge to them. Um, in our culture. You know, we kind of, it’s just like with, you know, the original Grimm fairytales, we have kind of Disney fied Santa to a certain degree, which is, which is fine.

You know, it’s, it’s sweet. It’s, it’s a fun thing for kids. It doesn’t necessarily have to have that dark edge, but it’s still interesting and you’re right. I would be interested to learn more about it too well, and I’m filming. We’re not going to get to, but if you are interested in seeing another dark Santa Claus movie before a Christmas comes.

St Nick, which I don’t think you said you had seen that. That’s a pretty interesting take. And in that you get another European cultural view where not only is there Santa Claus or the Saint Nick kind of Santa Claus, but there’s also a character that he is his helper. Who’s black, who’s like a North African or something helper.

I’ve read about that. And they dress up. I mean, that is a whole. Cultural interpretation of Christmas. It’s been going on for hundreds of years. Lou, we are totally oblivious to, that’s not really that far off right now. So, uh, there’s a lot of Santa Claus Lord to explore out there. There’s a lot to play with.

I wouldn’t be surprised, especially after this Christmas to start seeing a little more of the horror film, Santa or horror Christmas films coming next year. Yeah. Either that. Or people will be totally burned out on it. I feel like we’ve been really inundated with it this year. I don’t know why it’s like, it’s come to a head, you know?

I mean, this is a 2010 movie, right. Um, you know, so there’ve been some others, you know, there’s the really goof ball. Santa’s sleigh that came out. I don’t know. Four or five years ago, I think Santa was played by a professional wrestler. Um, he, you know, he was going around slaughtering people and stuff. So it’s not like it’s, it’s a new concept, but it really feels like we’ve been inundated with it recently.

We’re getting higher quality movies. Let’s put it that way. That’s true. Far beyond the direct to DVD fair Santa’s sleigh and Jack Frost and those right. That was one of the other things that I kept thinking as we were watching this movie, one of the things that I really appreciated about it. Was that it didn’t seem like a cookie cutter copycat of some of those other movies we’ve gotten.

It is unique. It’s, it’s different. Yeah. It takes the spin on the bad Santa kind of thing, which we’ve seen before and we’ll continue to see I’m sure. But beyond that, it doesn’t make me think, Oh, this is just like this movie or, Oh, it’s just like that movie. No, I mean, it stands alone, really different, super different.

And, and I even thought when I saw the horns, I was getting shades of Krampus, but only in the visuals. Right. Absolutely not in the plot. Absolutely not in the lore, anything like that? Yeah. I liked it overall. I liked it. I didn’t think it was amazing, but it was enjoyable. And you know, if, if you like scary movies, but you’re feeling more kind of on the warm fuzzy side of Christmas, you know, as we get closer, you know, You kind of want to embrace the, the cheer and the happiness of it.

I think this would be, you know, an appropriate film for, you know, just, just a laid back, relaxing. You know, it’s not a big think piece. It’s not, you know, super violent or gory really more than anything. I’d say it’s kind of a sweet movie. It is. It’s kind of a child’s adventure film. We’ve focused around that child the whole time.

And just like in these films, it’s the kid who. Saves the adults from themselves and who can think like a child does, which is what you have to do to save yourself in the situation. He’s the one with the advanced knowledge. He’s the one that knows what’s going on all along and as a kid. As long as you’re cool with reading subtitles, right?

This is the kind of movie you would enjoy it. I think so. I think it’s a cute movie. Merry Christmas to everybody. Thank you for listening to us during this month of Christmas themed horror films. We’ve sure. Enjoyed exploring just a little bit of that corner of the horror market really has been fun. It’s kind of put me in the mood in a weird way.

If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. Check us out on Facebook, share our pages there as well. You can also now find us on Stitcher and on iTunes. So please subscribe to us there and have a Merry Christmas Merry Christmas. That is from Todd and Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We had a lot more to say than we thought about this weird cult film. Check it out!

Christmas Evil (1980)

Episode 13, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Welcome to Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. I’m Craig. Now we’re in week three of our Christmas themed horror film Fest. And, uh, the movie tonight was Christmas Evil, originally titled, You Better Watch Out. Craig, you’re the one who suggested this. How did you hear about this film? 

Craig: Right. So we were talking about, uh, doing some work Christmas themed movies.

And so I just did a quick Google search of Christmas horror movies. And it brought up a list of about 20 or so. And this one stuck out to me one because I had never seen it before. And two, because the cover art. Was really kinda, it caught my eye and it made me think, I think that when I was a kid, this is one of those covers that I would see at the video store.

And it was always intriguing to me, but for whatever reason, uh, I never picked it up and I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing, but, uh, it’s an interesting little 

Todd: movie. It sure is, you know, as a kid, uh, watching this film, I think you probably would’ve seen it very differently than as an adult watching this film.

Don’t you think 

Craig: most probably, you know, it’s one of those things that I had to wonder, having never seen it before I had no kind of emotional connection to it, you know, there are some, I’m just gonna throw it out there. There are some bad movies out there that, you know, I kind of just have a nostalgic feeling for.

Uh, and so I kinda have, uh, there’s, you know, a little special place in my heart for them. This isn’t one, I don’t have a, I didn’t have that going in. And so my, uh, my objective take on it is probably a little bit different than it would be had. I seen it when 

Todd: I was a kid. Yeah. You’re, you’re not colored by nostalgia with this film.

Probably not. A lot of people have been considering. I guess it didn’t get much of a theatrical release at all. Um, I believe there was a problem with the NPAA and the advertisements. They didn’t, um, approve the advertisements in the newspaper for this. 

Craig: Yeah. That’s what I heard. And then, so it, the release was more limited than they had initially anticipated.

And when it came out, you know, what I’ve read is that really. Critics were pretty good. You know, they were pretty nice about this film. They had pretty positive things to say about it. It wasn’t received very well though. Uh, and the director thinks that that’s because there’s really a pretty low body count and there’s really not a lot of Gore.

And while there are kills, they don’t come until about 50 minutes or so into this. What, 80 something, 90 minute 

Todd: movie. Yeah. It’s pretty low on body count. Yeah. And, uh, if you were coming in here looking for a slasher horror film, probably as people around this era were right. I mean, you’re looking at 1980.

That was, uh, just a year after Halloween. Um, around the time of checks at Texas chainsaw massacre, probably that’s what folks coming to see this were expecting. And instead what they got was almost, um, Like a David Lynch film. Yeah. In a way it’s a lot more into this. It’s more of a psychological thriller than a horror film.

Like a character study. Yeah. 

Craig: Exploration it’s I think that’s exactly what it is. I mean, uh, the premise is we start out in what I guess is kind of a flashback it’s sometime in the 1940s, 1944, 46, something like that. And it’s a Christmas scene where you got a mother and two boys sitting on the stairs. You know, kind of watching the fireplace and Santa Claus comes down the fireplace and starts putting presence around and whatnot.

And then one of the little boys starts giggling and Santa Claus turns and kind of gives them the little Santa Claus, wink and whatnot. And, and they go back to bed. And one of the brothers, the younger brother, Billy is saying, Oh, that was just dad. That was just dad dressed up. And the older brother, Harry says no way, there’s no way that was dad.

Daddy, that wasn’t daddy. Well, daddy, you’re crazy. Yeah, no, you’re crazy. You don’t know nothing Philly, Philly, but I guess it’s curiosity gets the best of him and he goes back downstairs and he finds Santa in a compromising position with his mother. Now, of course it is his dad. Um, but, uh, apparently he still doesn’t put that together.

And, uh, I think that that kind of. Breaks him somehow. And he goes upstairs to the attic and smashes a Christmas globe and slices his hand with the Christmas globe. And then we cut and jump to present day where we have Harry waking up in the morning to a Christmas music box, a alarm clock he’s wearing Santa Claus pajamas.

You know, he’s got. Dolls and Christmas memorabilia all over the house. The walls are papered with images of Santa. So obviously he’s been obsessed since that event in his childhood. And then we follow him from there and he’s clearly 

Todd: unhinged. Yeah. It’s, it’s interesting how that event, when you look at his apartment, when he wakes up, obviously it’s kind of a sad.

Single man’s apartment. Definitely. This guy’s that has middle-aged by now. I presume it’s present day. So it’s 1980. So you go from 1949 to 1980. He’s in his forties or so. And all of the, even, even the music that he wakes up to, or at least it’s playing in the background is that 1940s, 1950s style, jazzy, Christmas music, and all of the decor and the imagery and things around his apartment.

They’re not necessarily as there’s some of the modern, but more or less sort of that classical Christmas. Did a very good visual representation. I think of how this guy is clearly stuck in the past and have clearly stuck with his old Christmas memories. And then of course you think, Oh, well, must be Christmas time.

Well kind of, but there’s a sign on the wall where he has this Christmas countdown and says thirty-five five days in the middle of Christmas. Like, Oh gosh, it’s not even Thanksgiving yet. So this guy’s clearly obsessed. And then of course, to top it all off. What does he, but he’s the, the newly promoted sort of foreman at the local toy 

Craig: factory.

Right. Right. If it’s 20 factory and you know, he’s concerned about quality, you know, he really wants these toy. He wants the workers who are, you know, not interested at all or concerned at all about quality. He really wants to make sure that the toys are quality, cause they’re going to be going to children.

And it’s such an important thing. He’s clearly obsessed, you know, there’s, there’s no other way to put it. 

Todd: It almost hearkens back to even, uh, the Krampus that we watched last time, where it starts out as this. Guy, who’s sort of afraid that everybody’s not really keeping the true spirit of Christmas as he is.

And boy is he keeping it, you know, he, he even has that flashback. Uh, it has some cute moments. So like when he was sort of, he’s getting ready to shave and he puts on his shaving cream and he holds up the rate at first, he’s really sort of delighted by the fact that he kind of looks like Santa, even though he’s a dark haired guy, he’s got this sort of Santa beard on.

And then he goes up with his razor to shave. And he has a sort of moment where he’s sort of a mental snap. 

Craig: Yeah, he Nicks himself and the side of the blood causes him to flash back to that moment when he cut himself, uh, when he was a kid, I don’t really get the sense necessarily that that was any kind of breaking point.

You know, I get the sense that this guy has been looped, you know, from the time he was a kid and we, you know, we. We see his, his younger brother as an adult too. Um, and his brother is talking to his wife and his wife’s like, you know, please leave Harry alone this year. Don’t give him a lot of trouble. You won’t ever let him, you always bring up his mistakes and remind him of his mistakes.

And the brother says, well, he’s made lots of mistakes. So you get the sense that he’s been troubled throughout his life. What, that was one of the things, you know, Yeah, this isn’t a good movie folks or at least I don’t think so. You know, it’s got its, it’s got its fans out there and I, I probably, my guess would be that they’ve got that nostalgic attachment to it, but it’s interesting in some ways, because Harry, the main guy is really not your typical bad guy at all.

His intentions are really coming from. A good place. You know, he wants to remind people of the true meaning of Christmas throughout the course of the movie. He, you know, wants to reward people who are good, especially children. And he has an affinity for children. Now it’s really 

Todd: creepy. Yeah. He’s up on the rooftop, uh, staring out through binoculars across the street at the apartment building and he’s, uh, going from window to window and looking at all these kids and say, Oh gee, you know, Julie, she’s really nice.

She’s really good. And it goes up in. One of the kids, uh, mosques Garcia, who we get to hear about a lot is reading a penthouse 

Craig: and like cutting out the 

Todd: centerfold. It’s awesome. And he’s like, uh, what like eight or nine, all these little, the kids. And he goes back and he actually has a couple sets of books.

There’s a book of good girls and boys, 1980 bad girls and boys 1980. And he is meticulously been documenting each of these kids. Sins, which for the most part, especially cause their kids are pretty silly. 

Craig: Yeah. Like uses foul language, fixes notes crosses against the light

Todd: impure thoughts. The closest we get to anything that sounds somewhat sinister that these kids do. It’s 

Craig: funny because he clearly takes this very seriously. I don’t know where he had these books bound, but he’s got like these large, like leather bound books, 

Todd: professionally printed, 

Craig: good little boys and girls and bad little boys 

Todd: and girls.

And yeah, you’d almost think that the person at the printing store would go catch onto this. It’s like, you know, 14 years of this. So these big empty box that you’re binding 

Craig: anybody had caught him doing what he was doing. You know, he’s watching these kids with binoculars through the window from across the street, but then later on, he comes around at night and is looking directly into their windows.

And, um, it’s, it’s, it’s very creepy at the same time. You, my initial thought, if I saw somebody doing that would be creepy pervert, you know, bad guy. But he doesn’t really have those motives, you know, he’s really just, he’s, he’s really just observing. And at one point he goes to that, the bad kids house Moss’s house and, uh, tries to scare him.

But it’s nothing violent. 

Todd: No. Um, he looks in the window and then he sorta S marks his house. He. Smears his face and his hands with dirt and kisses, the, the outside wall and puts his hands on there. And then, uh, when Moss comes out with his mother, he’s hiding in the bushes and kind of makes himself seen and Moss slowly approaches.

And then he jumps out at him a little bit, but not to the point where his mom can see it. It’s kind of a weird scene. It’s kind of a forced, a unrealistic thing, but he is, uh, A figure in his neighborhood, he walks down the street with his groceries and the kids are calling out at him from across the street and asking him, what did you wish for today?

Craig: We started with super magic.

I wanted that in school.

Oh, right. Great.

Todd: And he’s not even paying the particular mind, but he’s delighted. And the fact that they’re continuing to talk with him as he continues to walk by, 

Craig: and it seems like he’s liked by the children. You know, it seems like they have some kind of rapport or relationships. So yeah. I mean, he’s. Again, like I said, he’s not your typical bad guy.

I mean, seriously unhinged. And then later on in the movie, he starts punishing the bad people, but only adults, you know, uh, you know, we go through Thanksgiving and he watches the Macy’s Thanksgiving day parade. Which on another note, there’s tons of holiday thrown in here. I mean a lot. Yeah. It’s huge on, you know, Christmas imagery.

The, the entire soundtrack is Christmas music, lots of traditional 

Todd: Christmas music, surprisingly some modern Christmas music, which you wouldn’t think a movie like this could get the rights to that’s playing in the background at the Christmas party. Yeah. Things like 

Craig: that. There was, I think like a disco version of here comes Santa Claus.

I’ve got to get my hands on. Oh, it was awesome. You know, he, he watches the Thanksgiving day parade and he’s all excited about Santa. We follow him through the course, uh, of, of the movie kind of prepping, getting ready for Christmas. And eventually we do get there and he goes to his office, Christmas party and finds out that they are having this.

Promotion within the company where however much they can produce, you know, it’s, it’s encouraging productivity, however much they can produce a percentage of that will be donated to this channel burns hospital. 

Todd: Oh no, it’s the Willow state hospital for retarded children. More or less shows the age of the film and 

Craig: yeah, not, not so PC 

Todd: there a little in that regard, 

Craig: but, uh, you know, he, he sees it for what it is.

He sees it as a business ploy, the guy who planned it is, uh, not concerned at all about. Getting toys to the kids. It’s just about productivity. Are there 

Todd: enough 

Craig: toys for all the children from hospital? 

Todd: I don’t have a slightest idea. How many children are 

Craig: in that hospital? Harry, I worked on campaign presentation, but I’ll tell you something.

The idea of mine is really solid. The factory can’t always show to the whole bird. You mean you’re waiting for these guys to contribute here on the other side of the desk. Now you’ve got to understand good business. 

Todd: It’s okay. Harry, really the factory comes out. Okay. And so those kids are just so worried about him.

He is, he 

Craig: doesn’t even know why to invest, to be played. You actually know how to play, 

Todd: look what you’re 

Craig: doing, and that’s kind of what sets them off. And that’s really what leads to the first 

Todd: murders. That’s right. He basically goes to the toy factory in the middle of the night loads up on a bunch of presents, paints his van with a it’s kind of cute.

Actually, he’s got this white van, but then he paints it with the sleigh. And at home, even he’s sort of constructing toys, he has this sort of creepy dolls everywhere, like in his workshop, in his garage and things like half put together toys and dolls, like he’s got his own 

Craig: workshop at home and some of them, you know, if you look closely are really kind of dark.

Yeah. They’re not all happy. And, and that’s, that’s really the case. You know, with his deco too, like for the most part, it’s really kind of traditional Christmas stuff and, you know, lots of Santa’s imagery, but there’s one image on the wall that they do a close-up of for a minute that depicts Santa as this judge, like kind of, you know, up, uh, on a pedestal, looking down and pointing down accusingly at the bad kids.

So there is kind of a dark side to it too. Yeah. 

Todd: Clearly how he sees Santa as this sort of judge has person who’s responsible for them for keeping the morality in check of these kids. So that they’ll grow up to be good adults. And it’s like, he’s not going to punish the kids, but he goes Abe over the adult.

Right. And that I think is kind of a weakness of this film in that the first murder takes place. Of course, after he delivers the toys to this Willow street, Home for retarded children is, uh, is, uh, ease well-received. Yeah. There’s even kind of a magical moment there where he is waiting for the security guard to go inside and tell people what’s going on.

And they’re going to come out in the meantime, he’s practicing his Merry Christmas and he’s going Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas,

Craig: Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas,

Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas.

Todd: And then suddenly snow kind of comes down from behind and it was Merry Christmas. At the same time he came, they come out and. It’s this odd sort of jubilant point where you for a moment are kind of on his side. Yeah. You 

Craig: know, because there’s nothing sinister about it. I mean, the movie kind of plays it.

Like you wonder if he’s going to somehow turn sinister, even in these moments where it seems like he’s trying to be good natured, but he doesn’t, you know, he really is just wanting to deliver the toys to these kids. And at first the security guard is skeptical of him. You know, here’s this guy showing up in the middle of the night on announced, but you know, he charms his way.

Not inside, but he gets the staff to come out and he, he opens the back of the van. It’s full of toys. They happily unload everything and take everything out. And they’re genuinely grateful. You know, one of the nurses, uh, gives them a kiss on the cheek and he goes on his Merry way, you know, nothing sinister 

Todd: at all.

It’s really quite nice. And so. You, you, you do get on a side a little bit. You think, Whoa, you know, you’re watching what’s bill this of a horror film. So you know that something’s going to turn at some point, but you’ve been waiting a long time for it. And that’s probably part of the problem maybe with people who are expecting it.

But then he, as he’s driving, as pretty much happens throughout this movie, you have this juxtaposition of really happy, good things that he’s doing. And then as the high of that comes down, he starts thinking about the bad things that have happened to him and the guy at work who forced him to take his shift.

When, when he didn’t really mind, it didn’t seem to really mind taking a shift, but he keeps rubbing it in everywhere. Like 

Craig: it does mine. And he, he comes to find out that he was manipulated and, you know, into doing it. And that makes him mad, which would make me mad too. 

Todd: But yeah. Yeah. And he goes to, goes back to the guy with the Willow street home and how he admitted to him.

We don’t really know how many kids there are there. We don’t really care. It’s all kind of a ploy. And so then he goes to this church and he’s standing outside the church. And I guess he supposed to know that those two guys are inside the church and he doesn’t 

Craig: know when he was talking to them at the Christmas party.

The main boss, the guy whose idea this whole productivity thing was he’s new. And the main boss is introducing Harry to this new guy. And he explains the whole thing with the toys or whatever, but he mentions he’s new in town. He’s going to be staying with me and the wife over the holidays. He wants the whole experience, the whole midnight mass and everything.

So he knew they were going to be there. And that’s who he goes there. 

Todd: Okay. Yeah. Any standing outside and all the people sort of. Pile out and instantly you have these two very snobby kind of stereotypical snobby couples who come down the steps and start to rib him just because he’s Santa, you know, Oh, look at his code and look at all this stuff, which is a code he’s put together himself, which is actually pretty impressive.

It really is. And we get to watch him do it, which begs the question. All right. If he’s been this unhinged this long, and there’d been this many years that go by, does he create a new suit every year? Why now, who knows? But his suit is different and distinctive because he cut up an old, uh, fur coat. And so instead of having white fur all over it, it’s, it’s the, you know, brownish forever.

Anyway, they come up and they rip him in the meantime, he’s trying to ignore them and he’s looking and basically. He pulls a toy soldier out of the back of his coat of his pack and stabs, uh, one guy in the eye with it. And then everybody kind of screams. And somehow he pulls out a hatchet that he has to, and he knocks the other people down.

He’s pretty much killed at least three of these people. And down on the ground in front of a group of folks, nobody really runs out to do anything. Everybody’s just sort of standing and staring. And then he gets in his extremely conspicuous truck and drives off and. That’s another problem with this movie, which really puts it more in the surreal category, you know, than in anything realistic.

And that is that these things are just sort of allowed to happen and any true human intervention just. We’re we’re kind of in a world here where people don’t act the way they would normally act. 

Craig: Right. Absolutely. You know, and it really shouldn’t come as a big surprise. I haven’t listened to the commentary, but I, on the, on the Blu-ray, um, release, but, uh, apparently the director.

Uh, says in the commentary, and this is a quote, this is the Genesis of the whole movie, 1970, smoked a joint and saw an image of Santa Claus with a knife in his hand, and then built the whole story around it. So the surreal nature might be explained by that, I suppose, Louis 

Todd: Jackson, right? The director.

Didn’t he do that commentary with John Waters with John Waters. 

Craig: This is funnily enough. This is one of a John Waters. Favorite movies, period. And, and, uh, his favorite Christmas movie, he plays it at his Christmas party every year, or at least that’s what he claims in the commentary and really. The attention that, you know, he’s written about it in his books, and he’s talked about it and interviews, and that’s kind of increased the popularity of it somewhat in certain circles.

But, uh, yeah, I read some, uh, some of the quotes from their comments. Terry had some pretty 

Todd: interesting stuff. Well, you don’t, it’s not too far out of the territory of John Waters, quite honestly. I mean, you think this is the guy who did pink Flamingo later went on to do cry, baby, but you especially look at his earlier work and it’s in many ways, very reminiscent of it.

A lot of John Waters earlier stuff doesn’t really make a lot of sense. Right. It kind of goes all over the map. It’s really more about the characters themselves and their quirkiness and about the kitsch aspect, which he’s all about. And this, this is something John won. This is a movie John Waters could have made, except he wouldn’t make something that’s quite this dark.

You know, everything he does is kind of this element it’s laughing at itself. Yeah. This movie has joke elements in it. It has some. Humor, but you D I do at least question whether that humor was intentional or whether it was not, 

Craig: I don’t know. I think it was, I mean, I think that we’re looking at it from our contemporary standpoint and a lot of the things, I mean, they play a silly at the end.

You know, there are several ones. The one that, um, it, it was funny. Folks were, I was sitting here at one point, Todd just kept going, Oh my God. There’s uh, you know, so he, he kills those people in front of the church and you know, all of this happens pretty quickly. Cause like I said, he doesn’t even get to the, the violence doesn’t happen until.

Probably more than halfway through the movie. So then the, the spree happens pretty quickly. He, uh, kills those people at the church. Then he goes to the home of the guy who, uh, contem into taking his shift at work. And there’s kind of a little unintentional, maybe funny part too, where he tries to squeeze down the chimney, but he gets, yeah.

Stuck. And he can’t. And like, this is like a two minute seat of him, like stuck in the chimney, trying to get out, 

Todd: like realizing he can’t, 

Craig: he finally gets out and he goes in the window and did the basement window. He leaves, um, he leaves presents for the kids. Uh, and then he goes into the guy’s room and.

Kills this guy, first of all, he tries to smother him with his Santa bag, which doesn’t look like it would be effective at all. And the guy’s like thrashing and fighting. Meanwhile, his wife is just sleeping peacefully, 12 inches away, but so eventually I guess he realized the smothering is not going to work.

He grabs the star off the Christmas tree, that’s over their bed. Right. And slashes his throat with it. And the guy. Falls over on his wife who now wakes up, but apparently is struck mute by the horror of the scenario and kind of does this weird, like silent scream, really bizarre. But, um, it 

Todd: almost looked like she might’ve screamed and re and one, they were shooting this, but he took the sound out and post, you know, it’s just an open mouth kind of like 

Craig: kinda bizarre.

And then, um, then the next day, it’s Christmas day, it’s all over the news that there’s this killer Santa. Um, and then we cut to like the police station. Oh my God. 

Todd: Just this unnecessary bits are thrown in with the police. There are only two of them and they don’t go anywhere, but they’ve the newscaster who himself is pretty hilarious, you know, announces if, you know, if you know anybody who’s dressed up as Santa.

Please report them to the police and don’t come near anybody dressed as Santa, just this total ridiculous thing. Uh, and the police have sure enough created this lineup of Santa’s people dressed as Santa who were coming through and stepping out. And that was the one moment that I thought, okay, they know what they’re doing here.

They’re intentionally being funny because even as they file off the stage, another guy, you know, the group of sand has come up and one of them is black and he says something about. What’s up with this jive ass deal or something just kind of in the background, kind of as an aside, I thought, okay, that he put that in on purpose.

That’s funny. But then the dialogue that follows is totally 

Craig: no, maybe I’ll send, it’s going to do some good after me. You mean get the myth back. Its meaning Ms. Smith. 

Todd: And that kid’s scared again, they won’t take everything’s coming to them. So he’s that bad. 

Craig: Just Santa, when 

Todd: you’re 

Craig: a real philosophy and know that the Gleason Rilla any luck, they knew Santa was coming last night.

The mother told us I can’t figure out the connection between Stoller and the three victims outside the church. Sandoz hit-list has goddamned selective gift list. He’s making our list. Checking it twice going to find out who’s naughty or no. No, it wasn’t. 

Todd: It’s horrible. You couldn’t have even looked good on the pain.

And, and that’s the problem with this movie in general? Um, I feel like Louis Jackson actually has some good stuff in here. He really does a good job. I think. Of portraying this guy slowly being unhinged. He takes his time with it. He has very interesting camera angles. Very good pacing. I have to say on those elements, as long as you’re not expecting a slasher film, that’s going to be a shock a minute.

And you’re in the mood for this sort of slow character study. That’s what you get. And it’s very effective. 

Craig: I thought so too. I was really surprised actually, because I knew I, I, cause I had read about it. I knew that the violence didn’t start until late in the film and I thought, Ugh, That seems like an awfully long time to get there, but it didn’t really feel like it.

I mean, it was really kind of an interesting look into this guy’s life. I wasn’t bored. I think if it had taken any longer, even a minute longer, it might’ve gotten to that territory of boredom. But, uh, I wasn’t, and it didn’t feel long. I didn’t feel like I was checking my watch every couple, you know, it reminded 

Todd: me of a maniac.

Yeah. 

Craig: So funny. I wrote that down too. Very reminiscent. There’s 

Todd: another one that’s that’s way, way off the reservation from even maniac, uh, called a combat shock. Nope, no something that trauma released, not quite a while ago about a Vietnam vet who comes home and sort of has to come to terms with things.

It’s more of an art house movie, very much closer to this than to maniac, but again, in the same vein where you’re really following this guy around that’s unhinged and you’re kind of watching a breakdown and it’s interesting and it’s good and it’s artistically done. However, the moment two people have to talk to each other.

It all falls apart. Yeah. The dialogue is horrible in this film, the acting between most of the actors is melodramatic and at times it’s just, 

Craig: it’s bad. Yeah. I mean, there’s a scene, you know, once the, once Harry’s brother Billy and his wife see the news report the next morning, and you can kind of tell that, uh, Billy is already suspicious that this may be Harry, but there’s an exchange between Billy and his wife.

And it’s just, the acting is, is, is bad. It’s 

Todd: painful to them.

Craig: Why won’t you believe something’s wrong? You gotta stop. This very has forced me to be this, be honest with yourself about why he’s not here. You don’t understand what’s happened to us. That is turning it down. It’s kind of unfortunate. Because the lead guy whose whose name? I don’t know. It’s really not bad.

I mean, he’s, he’s an interesting kind of actor. I mean, he certainly doesn’t look like your stereotypical Hollywood actor type. He’s a very average looking guy, 

Todd: kind of a Paul Giamatti ask kind of, yeah, yeah. 

Craig: A little bit. Right. But there’s. Kind of a subtlety to his performance. You know, there’s not, when it’s just focused on him, there’s not much dialogue.

There’s not much talking, you know, you just kind of watch him through his expressions and a little bit through, um, some, you know, his flashbacks and stuff. And from time to time, Like he’ll hum. Christmas tunes. And you know, when he’s happy, he’s humming very cheerly. And then when he gets angry, it gets very dark and kind of sinister is humming.

Um, so his performance is really not bad. 

Todd: I wouldn’t even say it’s. It’s good. Yeah. It’s, it’s interesting. And it’s good because of how far he could have taken it. He could have been like, everybody else had been very melodramatic about it the whole time through 

Craig: played it really over the tops Looney tune.

Exactly. And he doesn’t in fact. Uh, and, and, you know, eventually he puts on the Christmas, uh, suit and he looks very Santa. Like, I mean, he’s, he’s a good looking Santa. Um, and you know, there’s a lot of close-ups on his face and there’s kind of a softness, an innocence in his eyes, you know, kind of almost like a childlike nature.

And I, you know, I found myself kind of feeling sorry for the guy. 

Todd: Oh, Oh, of course. And it’s really in that sweet spot where there really are people like this, this, this is, uh, not Hollywood type a slash or killer, somewhat supernatural. What do you say? It’s hard to break up impossible to. He gets away everywhere.

Uh it’s what happens when you have a movie like this that follows the killer? That’s who our focus is throughout the whole film, as opposed to we’re on the side of the victims being acted upon by the killer. It reminded me a little bit of a documentary called I think we’re alone now. I haven’t seen that either, man.

It’s, it’s worth a watch, but it’s incredibly sad and it follows two people who are obsessed with the singer, Tiffany from the eighties. Do you remember her? I think we’re alone now that all the shows in the mall, stuff like that, they’re in the same age as this guy, one’s a little younger and they live.

Tiffany like this guy lifts, Santa Claus, pictures up all over the wall. One guy just is sure that they’re going to get married. They’ve sort of built this relationship that doesn’t exist, but it’s all in their heads. And it’s a funny movie. It’s extremely sad and depressing, very compelling. And after seeing a film like that, that’s a documentary that’s real.

You can really understand. That there are people like 

Craig: this out there. Right. And it does seem like they were really kind of trying to consider the psychology, you know, it’s, it’s, uh, I don’t know. I imagine there was some tongue in cheek to this, but, and, and I certainly don’t mean to be offensive in any way.

I’m just saying what John Waters said was that he sees Harry as, as being kind of equivalent to a transgendered person, somebody who doesn’t feel that they are. Who they’re supposed to be, and they’re desperate to try to make themselves into what they want to be. Um, and he says, you know, that, uh, this guy kind of fetishized his Christmas a little bit, and there is a scene when he’s putting on the Santa garb and he puts the spirit gum on his face and he put a beard up on the glue and then he starts tugging at it and tugging at it.

And it won’t come up. It’s me.

Like, he’s really made this transformation and it’s, it’s, it’s odd and creepy, but sad at the same time. 

Todd: It’s funny you bring that up because coincidentally and I think you will. I don’t think I’m alone. Now. One of the people in that is transgender. There’s a lot of psychology there. There’s probably a bit of Freudian aspect to it.

A little bit of that when. I imagine what we’re trying to understand is that when he saw his father is Santa, you know, making out with his mother, then when he puts on the Santa suit, he puts on a little bit of that persona is sort of trying to be that guy. He does look in on his brother and his wife when they’re sort of making out on the sofa.

That’s kind of, yeah. Interesting moment. Those moments are so fleeting they’re really touched on and that’s probably. Skillful filmmaking them. They’re not dwelled upon and hammered on your heads, but you’re right. It does add an interesting texture to this character that really, I think, proves of this film, it’s a well-intentioned well made in many ways, film that just utterly fails to hit its Mark in.

Other aspects that just kind of derail the whole thing. Right? 

Craig: Well, and it takes you out of it too much. It does a little bit, and especially, I’m sure, you know, we’ll get to talking about the end here in a little bit where things really get kind of wacky. Um, but it’s not the worst one I’ve seen, you know, there.

We one of the movies that we floated around talking about with silent night, deadly night, cause it’s got this big cult following. It’s kind of when people think of horror movies, that’s kind of the one that comes to mind. Yeah. It’s got that, uh, iconic, you know, box cover with the Santa, you know, with the acts.

Yeah. Um, and so we thought about it, but we both said. It’s such a bad movie. Like, do we really want to sit and watch it again? Mean if you’re a horror fan, I feel like you’re kind of obligated to see it, but it’s really not a great movie. And that came like four years after this. And I think really had to have drawn inspiration.

There are so many parallels. Um, even, you know, what sins, uh, the main character on his psychotic break is very similar. It’s a sexual related thing with Santa Claus in that movie too. But I think this movie is better. Then that movie, it’s not a great movie, but it’s definitely not one of the worst 

Todd: I’ve seen.

No, and it’s well, um, the filmed, it has great camera angles. Uh it’s you know, the sin for a horror movie. What makes a horror movie bad is boring. Right? We will put up with a lot of schlock and a lot of bad dialogue and a lot of crappy stuff. It can still be fun, but if it’s boring, you’ve, you’ve turned us off completely.

And this movie isn’t. Boring. No, not like silent light, fricking deadly. This is super boring to sit through. Yeah. You know, speaking of interesting camera angles, I was thinking particularly about one scene where. Santa comes into, it’s still Christmas Eve and he’s murdered one or two people at least. And he ends up in the Christmas party, just sort of a random Christmas party, another one of these maybe office or family or church parties or whatever it is.

Right. Kind of peering in the window. And a couple guys in there, see the Santa guy peering in the window and they’re thinking, Oh, this will be great for some laughs. And they pull him in and you’re wondering, Oh geez, what’s he going to do here? Is he going to kill these guys? Are they making fun of him?

Right. But they really embrace him as Santa. And what really breaks him and makes him happy. And kind of out of his moodiness at this moment is when the crowd parts and these kids run up to him in the sand and suddenly he starts interacting with the kids, handing out presents to them. And the next thing we see is they’re dancing around the room.

He 

Craig: becomes the life of the party. I mean, he’s having a good time. They’re celebrating him and he’s celebrating with them. It’s a, it’s, it’s kind of a sweet. It’s a sweet 

Todd: and tragic because you know, what’s going to happen to this guy. So it’s just sort of sweet and tragic. It’s, uh, it’s a very good scene. I, I really like that.

And I did too. 

Craig: And it was, I love, uh, his monologue at the end when he finally says I have to go and he kind of gives this sincere farewell to the kids saying, I want you to remember to stay good boys and girls. Respect your mothers and fathers and do what they tell you a Bay, your teachers, and learn a whole lot.

Now, if you do this, I don’t make sure you get good presence from me every year,

but if you’re a bad boys and girls. Name goes in the bed, boys and girls book, and I’ll bring you something horrible.  parents are in the background. Great. Have given each other sign of kids 

Todd: with like wide open mouth and then he goes 

Craig: and everybody kind of laughs 

Todd: it’s funny that that is brilliancy, you know, on its own.

Uh, I really liked that part. 

Craig: A lot to the psychology of what he’s going through. You know, he calls his brother after he’s killed these people after, you know, the police and everybody is on the lookout for him. And he calls his brother and said, you know, I finally figured it out. I finally figured out what I’m supposed to do and I, and I’m going to do it.

You know, you get the sense that he thinks that he’s doing the right thing. And then. Later. Um, he more happens before this, but he ends up back at his brother’s house and his brother is chastising him for what he did. And he says, uh, I failed. He says, I, I wanted to give people what they say they wanted, but they don’t want Santa Claus.

He says, you know, kids. Yeah. Wants someone to notice who’s good and who’s bad, and they want to be rewarded for their good behavior. So it’s almost as though he just can’t understand, like he doesn’t have the capacity to understand why, what he’s doing. Isn’t acceptable, you know, for him, that is the true nature of Santa you reward.

Children for their good behavior and children who behave badly or punished 

Todd: Santa as the judge, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. It’s, it’s very interesting. It’s sad that everything just gets so undercut by really weak plot points and poor acting. And the reason that his brother is really worried about him is that he hasn’t shown up.

It’s the first Christmas that he hasn’t shown up there now. They’re worried, but they’re beyond worried. I mean, he’s fuming around the house sweating and like talking to his wife, it’s like, Oh, please come on. And then when he comes in, there’ve been these reports of these Santa clauses, the Santa Claus, who’s murdering people and stuff, but they really have absolutely no basis for suspecting him of doing any of this for thinking that he’s dressing up as Santa for thinking that he’s behind this.

I mean, it’s a pretty far reach. But they jumped to that conclusion pretty darn quickly. Even before they see him dressed as Santa, you know, you get other, especially the brother it’s, it’s, it’s unfortunate writing. I think. Well, I, I 

Craig: feel, you know, we gotta, we gotta get to the end and I don’t know. It’s the ending is, is odd.

And I’m not exactly, please. Sure. What they were going for now, like you said before, the whole thing is kind of surreal. Like it really doesn’t make any sense that he could still be so conspicuously driving around in the day in this, this van, and nobody would, would find them. But you know, you suspend your disbelief to, to some extent it’s, it’s a, it’s a horror movie, whatever, but then he goes, I don’t remember where he’s trying to get to.

I feel like he’s trying to get somewhere, but his. His van gets stuck right outside this really nice neighborhood. That’s really decked out for the holidays. Like the whole street is lined with these light up decorations and whatnot. And, uh, he encountered some children, right. And children with their parents and the children run up to him and embrace him.

And you know, this is Christmas evening. So they’re thanking him for the gifts that they got, but his parents. Are on the lookout for this killer. And they believe that it is him. Um, and they start getting aggressive. Uh, and he kind of, he doesn’t use the children to shield him, the children do it on their own.

Um, but he kind of allows them to kind of protect him. And one of the dads gets aggressive and kind of comes at him with a knife. Um, but he’s able to get away and he starts running away. And then everybody in the neighborhood lights, torch, lights up there, handy torches, all wet panties, right? I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s the, it’s the mob, right.

It gets 

Todd: done in 1980. 

Craig: They’re chasing him through the streets, this angry mob with every single one of them with a torch. And, um, nobody’s shouting, 

Todd: nobody hopped in a car at a motor. No. 

Craig: And so he runs back to his van and, and somehow the van comes loose or whatever. And. Um, that’s when he drives to his brother and he has the confrontation with his brother, his, you know, he kind of tries to talk.

He’s not reasonable, but he tries talk reasonably to his brother and explain, you know, what he was doing. But, uh, the brother freaks out and like strangles him. And you think that, um, you think that he’s dead? The brother drags him out to his van and puts them in, uh, the van, but then he comes back awake and he punches the brother and knocks him out and he starts driving away.

Coincidentally at the same time that the angry mob arrives and is starting to chase him again. And he goes off, speeding down the road and he swerves to avoid the mob. And his van goes off a cliff or like over 

Todd: a break and overpass or something or something, but it clearly is it’s not going over it, but it’s going.

Off of it. So it just keeps flying straight through the air in what had to be the highest, uh, you know, budget, special effect that this film had, which isn’t saying much no. And, uh, and into the sky. And we hear the last bits of the twice a night before Christmas, I heard him 

Craig: exclaim as he drove out of sight, Merry Christmas to all and to Raul good 

Todd: flies, almost ITI, like.

Across the moon across the moon and up there and credits. Right. And so as his brother, it must be said watches in amazement, right? It’s not like. This happened in his head and he’s really plummeted down into the water. Well, it’s a little confusing. It could be, except for the fact that there’s a shot of his brother looking in amazement.

Craig: Right? I know it is though, because you know, everybody talks, if you read message boards or, or whatnot, the ending is the part that everybody really talks about. This kind of really weird surprise ending in the IMDV trivia, um, for the film. It says that he doesn’t actually fly away, that there is actually a crash and that you hear the crash.

Um, but people mistake it for the sound of the brother rolling down the Hill. But I don’t and I was listening. I was paying attention. You do hear a crash after he goes over and the brother is rolling down the Hill, which is also hilarious because it’s so clearly like fake sheets, 

Todd: you know? 

Craig: Um, and I feel like there’s even cardboard boxes that like pop 

Todd: out from underneath.

Right. There’s clearly for more 

Craig: than just, you do hear a crash, but like you said, I can’t imagine that that was really the filmmaker’s intention because then you see him flying off. And, and you see the brother watching now, if you didn’t see the brother watching, I guess you could kind of look at it metaphorically, like he’s escaped or, you know, in depth, his way 

Todd: of going 

Craig: to dinner.

Right. But, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s peculiar to say the least. I don’t know. I mean, it’s, it’s a weird into a weird movie and every once in a while you just come across these movies that are just so oddball that you kind of don’t 

even 

Todd: know what to make of it. It, again, it’s very, Lynchian, uh, it’s the sort of thing.

And if there had been more really, truly sort of magical realism kind of aspects to it throughout the ending wouldn’t seem so shocking and jarring. You’d put the movie in its place. You would understand this is the kind of film we’re dealing with. And the ending would almost be fitting, but it comes so far out of left field and so quickly.

And so suddenly at the end that it doesn’t seem quite 

Craig: right. I don’t know. You know, I don’t know what would have been the fitting ending. Well, that’s true. I guess. I mean, it, as odd as it may sound, it really kind of seemed like a fitting ending for this weird movie to me. Yeah. 

Todd: There, there are a lot of strange things in here.

I think it’s. It’s funny what? That he smelts a toy soldier in his garage. Yeah. He’s just 

Craig: got smelting tools. He’s like pouring the hot, hot lead, like into this cast mold. 

Todd: Uh, quite a bit is made of that scene, which is interesting, but, and on that cool way where he kind of smacks a toy as he’s leaving and the camera ominously sort of jumps in to this freaky looking sort of marionette Teddy bear or whatever, that’s kind of bouncing.

And one thing that. That the film did really well with sound. I thought, I thought the sound was very effective. It was a weird amalgamation of both what you said earlier. The traditional Christmas carols and the modern Christmas carols with. Music that was clearly composed for it. That was sometimes sort of your horror 

Craig: type music, your eighties synth kind of stuff, which, you know, you have to have a fondness for, but I thought that what was here was actually really good.

Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. And sometimes it was just noise and there were often very good transitions where the music would serve as a great transition where somebody was playing something on a record player. We’ve kind of heard it for a while. And then suddenly in this. Mrs party, somebody stumbles against the record player that makes the record scratch you get that scratching noise.

And as we’re moving into him, kind of coming on hinged again in the 

Craig: van, right. Or it changes the RPM. So you’ve got this. Uh, you know, uh, be fun traditional holiday song, but then somebody bumps it and the speed gets turned down. And so it’s kind of this draw now, and it’s kind of spooky and they do that in the score too sometimes where you’ll have elements of Christmas songs that you can definitely recognize, and then they distort it.

In, in ways that makes it unsettling. And I, I agree. I thought it was, and it must be 

Todd: said, this is a movie that if you’re grossed out by Gore, you could probably watch. I mean, there’s one bit where those three guy people get killed and that happens pretty quickly. Yeah. 

Craig: Uh, there is one practical effect where a guy like gets stabbed through the eye and, you know, it’s so fast, it’s blinking it.

You hardly notice 

Todd: it. And it’s like in sort of a close-up, but it’s almost in silhouette in a way. And so. That shouldn’t scare you away from watching this film. If that’s the sort of thing that bothers you, it’s probably everything. Yeah. Yeah. 

Craig: I, you know, I don’t know who I would recommend this film to. I it’s, uh, I don’t think that it’s necessarily something that I would ever watch again.

Um, but it was interesting to see, you know, and there is some hype, you know, there are people. Uh, out there in, in horror communities who really kind of cherish this as one of their classic Christmas horror films. And, um, I’m, I’m glad to have seen it now. I don’t feel the same way, but you know, it’s an interesting effort, 

Todd: nonetheless.

It is. It’s not a bad movie. It’s just not a very good one. Yeah. 

Craig: I was hoping to weave these things in more naturally, but there was some of the stuff that came from, uh, the waters, uh, commentary that he did with the director that I feel like is just too good. Not to mention. I think it’s the lead actor is feeling Apple’s dad.

No way. Isn’t that 

Todd: random. Oh my gosh. 

Craig: And uh, in the, uh, John Waters, uh, or somebody in one of these asks, um, If a sh if they think she’s ever seen it and the director says he doubts it. Um, another, another thing we talked about that scene where Harry kind of scares the kid and then his mom’s trying to pull them away in that scene.

You know, when the kids like there’s somebody in the bushes, the mom just slaps him right across the face, which is hilarious in itself. But that mom was Patricia Richardson from home improvement. And I knew that going in and I didn’t even notice, I didn’t even recognize her at all. She must’ve been. Super young.

Um, and then finally that, uh, the scene that we talked about where he kind of stumbles upon the Christmas party and he’s looking through the window, watching people dance that dancing in that seed, which is, you know, not super impressive choreography or anything, but it was choreographed by Meryl Streep’s brother.

Like, is this some of the most random connections I thought were so interesting to read about. And I guess all that comes from the commentary, which I can only imagine would be just as amusing to watch, if not more so than the film 

Todd: itself. The only way I’d watch this movie again, it’s to hear John Waters and the director of talking about this, and I’m sure John Waters Fonz all over this film.

Yeah. Well, there you have at Christmas evil, otherwise known as. You better watch out. We’ve got one more week coming up of Christmas theme, horror movies. We’re going to be watching rare exports next week. It’s a catch us then next week, same time, same channel where they’re on Stitcher. We’re on iTunes.

We’re on our website. If you enjoyed this podcast as always, please share it with a friend, check out our Facebook page like us on there until next week. This is Todd and I’m Craig, with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This seems to be the year of the Krampus. For this second week of our horror-themed Christmas films, we headed straight to the theater for this brand new film from the writer-director who brought us Trick-R-Treat.

Krampus (2015)

Episode 12, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Welcome to another edition of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. I’m Craig. Today, we thought we’d do something a little different. We are watching a current film that’s in the theaters because we have that opportunity. It is crumpets or Krampus or something. And, uh, we went out today. We watched it and we’re here to report to you in case you’re looking at us, spicing up your holiday season with something a little more horrific.

Crump, what is that Scandinavian or I think I read somewhere that it’s Austrian. Um, and the Lord dates back to 2000 BC. I think, you know, it definitely predates Santa Claus, but interestingly enough, it’s only in probably the last three or four years that I ever even heard of. This or however you pronounce it.

Isn’t that weird. And I same here and I don’t know if it’s just the internet, it goes around, but you’d think something that old you would at least know something about it and that somebody would have made a movie. About it by now, because it’s so interesting, right? You wouldn’t think by now, but it’s funny that all of a sudden, whatever brought it overseas and kind of brought it to light for us, it’s really hit the ground running now.

I mean, there’s this big budget one, but there are also. Several Krampus movies that have come out, uh, over the last year is low budget stuff that I have not even really been all that interested in looking into, but, uh, we kind of been inundated a little bit, you know, this movie reminded me a little bit, anyway, of course this isn’t a foreign film, but there was that foreign film St.

Nick that I think was a. Uh, was it Norwegian? I think, so that sounds right. They came out a few years ago. Would you put that in the same category as this was that kind of a Crump was sort of yes. So I think, and I haven’t seen that movie. I’ve read about it. I think in that film, it is actually just an evil Santa Claus, but it’s, you know, it’s, it’s very much in the same vein.

I mean, that’s basically what Krampus is. That’s how he’s described, uh, in the movie. He’s Santa Claus’s darker shadow. He’s really. The anti clause. I mean, you take, you’re going to have that one prepped. It just came to, um, but you, you know, you take off the traditional elements that you know about, uh, Santa Claus and you flip them and make them dark.

And there you have Krampus. Yeah. And I did see St. Nick and this movie reminded me a little bit of it. At least obviously the evil Santa Claus coming through the comedy aspects of it. It took it a lot more straight horror than this one did. Although I, I mean, this one is kind of a straight horror as well.

It was, I don’t know. It’s kind of hard to define. Was it for you? Did you feel like the tone was almost all over the place? I don’t know. I don’t know if I would say the tone was all over the place I went in with really, really high expectations. I’ve been looking forward to seeing this since they announced it, because I knew that it was the same writer and director who did trick or treat, which we’ve talked about is, you know, one of my.

Favorite Halloween movies. So I’ve really been looking forward to this had, you know, really high expectations and I was not disappointed. Um, I thought that, uh, it was scary. I thought that it was funny in places, but it was also really dark. You know, I was, I was kind of glad that they weren’t afraid to go there.

You know, let it be a truly dark movie. You know, I was wondering with trick or treat, they did that. So I guess there should be no. Real surprise that they went the same direction, but there were even points in the movie where I thought, Oh, they’re going to turn it around. Things are going to be okay.

Something’s going to be all right. And, uh, yeah, once a month they set a certain tone in the very beginning when it’s all this slow motion. Um, well it starts with black Friday. Really? Yeah. All those slow motion, video, uh, footage of, uh, people tearing each other apart trying to get to presence. People had at a school pageant who were fighting on the stage and parents who were running up to break their kids apart simultaneously.

Well, people in the audience are like, like taping it for YouTube or something, but like clearly some are horrified. Some are getting a kick out of it. It runs through the gamut of all of the annoying, horrible things about the holidays that we do to each other and to ourselves. Well, and I thought that that was an excellent way to open it.

First of all, you know, it opens kind of with this traditional screen shot of like a holiday wreath and the title comes up and it’s, you know, in the festival lettering and everything. And you’ve got this traditional Christmas Carol playing in the background with this slow motion scene. And it’s funny because we, yeah.

See that in real life and to see it captured on film and to do it in a slow motion fashion, it’s funny, but at the same time, the underlying truth of it is horrible. It really, I mean, it just goes to show, you know, what we have made of Christmas, you know, with the materialism and just, you know, just brutal savagery of like, uh, black Friday.

It’s crazy and we just kind of accepted it as our reality, but I really think that what the filmmakers were trying to do with this film was point out how we’ve kind of spoiled Christmas and right. Yeah. It definitely sets off, uh, that this is going to be simultaneously funny, but also perhaps cynical.

Yeah. You know, you would expect a, sort of a will Ferrell comedy, Christmas comedy to start out this way or something like that. Yeah. It really sets that expectation, like, okay, maybe this is going to be one of those lighter horror films that I’m, you know, going to watch, it’s going to be more goofball. And then it definitely, like you said, goes to darker places.

It, that was, that was my feeling through this whole film was that I was being flipped around. My expectations were sort of being toyed with because it comes right out of that, into. Almost your stereotypical, uh, holiday movie to the point where it was almost a spoof really well, almost a spoof, almost, you know, very similar to other things.

We’ve seen the after the mall scene, our central family. Goes back home and they’re preparing for their relatives to arrive, to celebrate Christmas. And nobody’s looking forward to the arrival of the relatives. It felt very much like the early part of Christmas vacation. Um, even when the relatives finally show up, it’s kind of this ominous thing.

Nobody wants to let them in and they come in and they’re all of noxious and throw everything into disarray right away. It had me thinking very much, even the there’s an uncle Howard Howard is like spitting image of cousin Eddie. He really is. And I mean, he was channeling him throughout. Yeah. You had cousin Eddie there.

Uh, it was a little bit of home alone too, with the chaos of the house and the families who in a very realistic way. Don’t. Like people are annoying and don’t really quite get along with each other. The son max w very much had that Macaulay Culkin, like he’s the only one who sort of still has the Christmas spirit here.

And that’s really played up in the sense that he still believes in Santa Claus. And it’s not that. Necessarily that he believes that Santa Claus is real, but it’s like, he’s intentionally keeping the spirit of Santa Claus a lie. Exactly. And for a young kid about, I don’t know, what 12, 11, 12 something, something like that.

It was kind of an interesting attitude. Yeah. I, I thought it was, you know, I thought it was very much like home alone. In fact, up to the point where. The scary things start to happen. It follows almost that exact pattern. You’ve got this one kid who’s, you know, kind of feeling like the outcast in his family, because everybody else is concerned about their own things.

The dad’s worried about work. The mom’s worried about making everything look perfect in the house and, and this kid feels left out and like in home alone, he kind of has this blow up moment where he says, I hate you all. I don’t care about Christmas anymore. And it’s very reminiscent of what Macaulay Culkin does there.

And then it just goes in a totally different, it does like, well, the kid’s name is max. He has a sister Beth. Who’s a little older sister and she’s sort of the teeny, you know, kind of in her teen adolescent years, who has some boyfriend that she’s Skyping with upstairs, um, was trying to convince her to come over to his house.

Uh, they hit a cup, take some hits on the bong, away from the family. Max has written this letter to Santa. Right. Right. And it’s interesting. Max’s letter to Santa Max’s letter gets read by the cousins and the cousins are super annoying. Like knowing this is a horror movie, I’m watching this. I just want these people to die.

You know, you don’t have that feeling where you’re like, man, I can’t wait for these people to get. Cause you know, they’re going to. So obnoxious. Yeah. And the it’s like, you know, max kind of still wants to believe, and he’s got this German grandmother, uh, OMI, and he, and she kind of shared this special bond where it seems like she’s really trying to keep in the spirit too.

And, and, you know, she’s making all the homemade Christmas cookies and he talks to her, you know, the, he talks to his parents and his sibling about how he knows that Santa Claus isn’t really real, but yeah. He, he got in that fight at the nativity scene or the Christmas pageant, because there was this jerk kid who was telling all the other little kids that Santa Claus wasn’t real.

And he says, you know, I just wanted to keep the magic for those little kids. I didn’t want it to be spoiled for them. Um, and he, yeah. He’s and then the other family comes in Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. Oh gosh. I’m so glad you guys have no idea. Accidents all over the freeways and meth have been crazy talk radio for six hours.

We brought you a little taste of home though. Didn’t we? Oh, wow. Thank you. It looks wow. You’re welcome. Let me move it, move it. We don’t have to keep the traffic jam going. Now. Let me help you.

Thanks Tommy. But with the night off, don’t worry about it. And it’s the mom and the dad, and then they’ve got. Three kids or four, four kids, four kids. Yeah, there, I think our twin girls that the dad apparently wanted boys. And so he’s pretty much tomboy them up as much as possible. And that’s kind of a running game then.

There’s and they’re the oldest, I think then there’s one younger boy, um, who doesn’t speak at all in the movie. He’s sort of the goofy fat kid who just sits there and stares, Slack jaw did everything that goes on and that’s it. That’s his shtick. And I know it couldn’t have been the same kid because too much time has passed, but he reminded me so much of that kid from trick or treat who gets killed by the principal, very similar appearance.

And then, uh, there’s a baby too, but they all sit down well for their first dinner. And of course the family is, you know, kind of making critical remarks about the mom’s food. And, um, the, the two girls, Jordan and Stevie have snatched, unbeknownst to max they’ve snatched his. Letter to Santa Claus and they pull it out and they read it to try to humiliate him, uh, at, at the family dinner.

But what they read is actually so sweet and heartfelt and innocent, I was like, Oh man. Yeah. Well, and what’s interesting about it is it’s not like your typical letter to Santa. Like Santa gave me this and it gave me that it’s like a prayer, right. He’s Santa is sort of this day-to-day to him. That sort of captures this Christmas spirit, this sort of, uh, I don’t know, I’m sort of like a secular God that he can pray to because in this letter, he’s, he’s written down really what he wants, but just his thoughts and his feelings about his family wishes for them.

Right. It’s not material things. It’s not, you know, I want a pony and I want a video game. He’s asking for things for his family. You know, he asks. For something. He asked that, uh, he and his sister could spend time together. The way that they used to, he asks that his parents could fall back in love with one another.

The family that has come to visit, he says, I know they’ve really been having a hard time. I wish that you could help them in some way over the next year. He really doesn’t ask for anything for himself, except for, I just want Christmas to go back to the way that it used to be. And then at the end, his very last thing is, and thank you for giving me OMI.

Um, so it’s a really, really. Sweet sweet letter. You know, it just kind of gets tarnished because then he’s embarrassed and, and they kind of explode, but for a moment there, it sort of gives everyone pause. Right. And that’s, it’s interesting this family that is so at each other’s throats and really brutally, I mean that honestly, If I were to sort of fault the script for anything, I would say that maybe it was just a little over the top with how direct and pointed everyone’s criticisms were for each other.

There was really no diplomacy in this family at all. Um, and the aunt who comes in, uh, and the uncle bring in there. It’s the aunt of the, of, of Max’s mother. Right. And she’s just wants to hit the booze all the time, but she’s extremely brutal. Oh, right. She doesn’t even want to be there. Yeah. And she’s played by Conchita Farrell who, uh, is hilarious.

Concerta Farrell. Excuse me. She’s been in so much stuff. She’s this large woman. What I know her most from, which is embarrassing. It’s a terrible show, but two and a half men, she was the maid on two and a half men throughout its whole run. And she plays that brassy brazen character. And does it really well here, but you know, you say over the top, but, and I think that it was okay.

But not so much under the top, over the top that it didn’t kind of ring true. Maybe you just have a much nicer family than mine then, you know, you know, sometimes there’s that aunt, you know, or maybe the great aunt who’s a little bit crotchety or something who will tell you that you’re. Turkey’s dry or, or, you know, the meal wasn’t as good as when she used to make it or something along those lines, it felt.

And at some point after the letter incident, the dad comes up to talk to max who is upset and says, you know, why do we have to hang out with these people? Just. Because we share DNA and he says, well, that’s what holidays are about. You know, it’s about spending time with people. You try to be friends with, even though you don’t have much in common.

Yeah. And they said, that’s what family is about. Right. Yeah. And there’s a, there’s a truth to that. You know, we, we love our families and we do want to spend time together, but sometimes yeah. It does pose challenges because you don’t always share the same values or the same lifestyle or whatever. Yeah, it’s interesting.

It just highlights that point about the holidays, where we feel this obligation to get together with our families. And it’s usually the same year after year and you see the same people and as he points out, these are people we don’t necessarily have much in common with except blood. Right. Yet we.

Obligate ourselves to get together every year, even though it’s perhaps going to be really painful. Well, and I think that that, and maybe I’m trying to read too much in it, but I really don’t think so. You know, I think that was part of the message. We shouldn’t feel obligated. You know, we should feel happy and glad to be able to spend times with the ones we love, even if we don’t always agree.

And I think that the fact that they don’t appreciate it. One another, and they don’t claim to the holiday spirit. That’s what gets them in trouble. You know, this, this really feels like a morality. Oh yes. Kind of movie. And it’s funny, you know, in, in one of the opening scenes, somebody is watching, it’s a wonderful life.

And I hadn’t really thought about this so much, but I was reading an interview that, uh, uh, Dardy, what’s his first name? The director. Do you remember? I can’t remember Michael. Yeah, I think so. Michael darty. Yeah, he was quoted as saying a Christmas Carol, and it’s a wonderful life. Our nightmares that show you these broken characters who experience a darker side of divine intervention.

They need to be scared straight. And I had never really thought about that before. I mean a Christmas Carol and it’s a wonderful life really. You know, those are kind of nightmare scenarios and that’s what happens here. You know, these people don’t honor the spirit of Christmas and they’re thrust into this nightmare to kind of teach them a lesson.

Yeah, exactly. And it does a really good job of setting. I mean, it’s pretty explicitly set up that way. I think after the opening credit sequence, we talked about the very next thing you see is that black and white Ebeneezer Scrooge, and the guy saying you will be visited by the ghost of the Jacob Marley and it pans out.

And the whole time I was thinking, okay, Uh, clearly it’s it’s foreshadowing. It’s setting us up for what kind of movie this is going to be. Okay. And it was true in a way, right? Yeah. Um, it definitely played with your expectations there as well, which I’m sure we’ll talk about later, right? Yeah. It was really interesting.

So at that point, the kid goes upstairs and he does this sort of symbolic gesture of ripping up the letter and throwing it out into the wind. And that’s what sets everything. Right. Right. It’s like in Mary Poppins, the pieces of his letter float off, up into the sky and all of a sudden, these. Ominous dark clouds, just start rolling in at a wicked pace.

And from then on and on, it’s pretty brutal. You know, we live in Missouri and we’ve been through some pretty brutal winters, but this is like, I never want to see this kind of storm in our house. It’s taken across the whole neighborhood. The lights are out pretty much. The electricity is out for the rest of the movie.

Yeah. The snow is so thick. You can’t see six feet in front of you. They don’t know what to do. They can’t call anyone on their cell phones. They can’t even get the radio there, no TV. They’re truly stuck there together for us to try to get along or make the best of the situation. At the same time, his older sister wants to go visit her boyfriend and see if he’s okay.

Cause she’s worried because she’s texted them several times and he hasn’t texted back and he just lives down the block. So she asked permission to go and you know, they’re a little, the parents are a little skeptical, but they figure she’ll be fine. It’s just down the block. Go on and then only be an hour and come back.

And this is only, maybe not even 15, 20 minutes into the movie. I mean, it doesn’t take very long to get to the scary stuff. And, uh, you know, she’s walking down the street and it’s presumably daytime, but just out of nowhere, it goes almost completely dark. Like it falls into the darkness of nighttime and Crump appears, you know, we don’t have to wait for the end of the movie to get a reveal.

The sister turns and sees on the rooftop. This kind of shrouded haunted figure, um, and, and she’s frightened and she turns around and starts running home. And crumpets starts running along the rooftops, leaping from rooftop to rooftop chasing her. And I thought, well, she has to get away. She has to get, but you know, this is the sister and the sister has been nice.

You know what I, what I’m thinking, you know, the lore of Krampus is that kind of the anti Santa Claus in that, uh, Santa Claus rewards, children who are good and crumpets. Punish his children who are bad. And I thought, well, the sister hasn’t been bad. You know, she’s been pretty nice up to this point. She’ll be fine.

Nope. No. Yeah. You really expect her to be the one to run back and say, Hey, I something’s going out there, but she’s the first one to get it. And it’s not only does it beat out that Santa Claus Krampus Lord, but it also is totally against sort of your horror film lore. You know, this person who hasn’t really done anything wrong right back, she’s been the only one who’s sort of stood up for him and said, I don’t worry about, you know, what’s going on.

Boom. Yeah, she’s a she’s and that’s it. She’s gone. Uh, and so then, you know, it goes back to the house and the family starts to worry because night has, and, and the daughter hasn’t come back. The, the dad and the uncle decided that they’re going to go out to look for, and they go out in the snow and very dark and very cold.

They find the boyfriend’s house, which is all in a shambles. And there is a gingerbread man. Stabbed into the refrigerator with a butcher knife. And the uncle makes some sort of comment, like whoever did this as a real psychopath or something along those lines. Uh, and they noticed that the chimney has been demolished.

It seems like it’s been destroyed from the inside and the uncle speculates that it must’ve been a gas explosion we serve do because they have these giant hoof prints to also, uh, right. Contend with it right down there at the bottom of this, they obviously get terrorized by the bus. The uncle almost gets pulled away.

Um, but, uh, the dad who at this point is really played against the uncle as the sort of he’s the Democrat, the uncles, the Republican, in a sense, the uncles are really all about that’s guns. He’s all about go on the gut. Let’s go out there. Let’s be bold. And, uh, the dad is more of a, let’s take this easy.

Let’s, let’s be careful. And as often happens in films, the dad sort of gets his. Moment to use the gun, to defend the uncle, which gives the uncle some, some respect for him finally, and sort of shows the dad, Hey, I can step up to the plate and actually come to it at that same time, that scene. I think I realized in that scene that this movie was going to be more than I expected because.

They didn’t play it. One note, you know, it wasn’t just one monster, you know, Krampus, wasn’t just acting alone. There were a lot, he had, you know, lots of little helpers and, um, when the uncle almost gets taken, it’s almost like one of the sand worms in trimmers or something like that. Something going under the snow and grabbing people from underneath and pulling them away.

And I thought now I have no idea what to expect. You know, I have no idea where this is going to go and it’s. You know, pretty legit they play it. Straight for the horror, for the most part, in those, in those scary moments. And it is pretty scary. It is, you know, I was sitting here wondering, because I actually had a friend of mine.

I told her I was going to see this movie. And she said, Oh, my five-year-old is, is so all about Krampus right now. And I’m, and I’m thinking, Oh, you don’t, do you think you’re going to take them to see the movie? And she said, I don’t know, maybe. I mean, he seen Jurassic park, those movies, you know, when people are sort of getting torn apart in there.

And I said, well, yeah, but. It’s not like graphically, they’re getting torn apart. And honestly, it’s not very graphic in this movie either, but there’s a different tone in this film. And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that it’s Christmas time, sort of a sensitive time of year and it’s a family time of year.

And what you’re really seeing here is the ripping and tearing apart of a family. And I. I feel like for a child that would be rather disturbed. I think so, too, you know, it might also go over kids’ heads. You know, they may not be as disturbed by it as we are, because I think we kind of know more about family dynamics and whatnot.

Five years old is awfully young. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t take my file now. Maybe your 12 year old, your 13 year old, but even then it’s kind of scary and I would be okay. I don’t know, it would depend on the sensibility of your, of your kid. You know, I think I would have been the kind of 12 or 13 year old who would have really thought this was really cool.

Um, but I think that, you know, the kind of deconstruction of all of these. Nice Christmas images and whatnot. That could be a little troubling for younger, a little bit less mature feels like the thing that could kind of stick with you for a little while. And it would also be the thing that you would make enough parallels with in life.

Oh, you know, the next time you see a little toy robot or you see a toy Teddy bear, you’re baking your gingerbread cookies. All of these elements come in to sort of be. Evil in this, as part of Krampus has helpers, I could see where it could spur some nightmares that you know, that, uh, you know, if you’re concerned about that sort of thing, frankly, I think he could give me nightmares.

I mean, it’s, it’s some pretty scary stuff, you know, now once the data and the uncle get back to the house at that point, it kind of becomes like a home invasion kind of thing, because they’re all just kind of trapped in the house. They don’t know what’s going on. At one point they hear scurrying on the roof, uh, and they try to explain it away as.

Squirrels, but then there’s a big loud thud and they still just kind of try to ignore it. But the grandmother OMI warns the father makes sure you keep the fire hot, make sure you keep the fire hot. Um, but then of course the uncle says, he’ll take, watch. He falls asleep. The fire goes out and this hook comes down.

The, a, this was a great scene and the hook comes down the fireplace and it’s got it’s on a chain and it’s got jingle bells and tied to it almost like. Tied up for ransom or something. Is this gingerbread cookie and the little dopey kid who only eats all the time and doesn’t talk wakes up first and he goes, and he grabs the cookie and he takes a bite out of it.

And then all of a sudden it comes to life. It comes to life and it jumps on him and it wraps them all up in the chains and it pulls him up through the chimney and the family tries to stop him, but it gets him, you know, it keeps getting people and it’s, and, and, you know, I expect this sort of moment where, Oh, you still realize the kid’s still alive, but he’s, uh, he’s just been taken and he, you know, they’re going to eventually go back and sort of rescue all these kids from the Krampus.

That never really comes. Now you realize no, the crop has taken these people and they’re never gonna see them again. Um, and that, yeah. Is where the tone, the tone of the movie shifts a little bit, probably you were feeling a little bit of gremlins throughout. Oh, definitely. Definitely. Especially with the gingerbread men appear several times and they have the giggly kind of gremlin thing going on.

We should have gone to my brothers. Well, it was similar to gremlins. Definitely the first one, you know, the CQL played for the comedy, but the original gremlins really, and parts was, was genuinely quite scary and violent. And it really shocked a lot of parents. I know my mom and dad, when they, you know, we, I think we saw gremlins in the theater, at least that’s what I remember.

And, uh, it definitely shocked them a little bit that this movie was a PG even, maybe I don’t remember. I think it was listed as PG at the time, if, maybe because PG 13, wasn’t it wasn’t even around. It really wrote that line where I know it probably gave a lot of kids, nightmare me to death. I’ve told you the story of my parents took me to see it in that scene where the first gremlin escapes in the lab and, and the.

Scientists reaches for the phone and the gremlins clock comes out. I don’t know how, how old I was when I came out, I want to say like six, seven, and I screamed, jumped up in my chair and spun around backwards in my chair. It definitely does have that kind of feel legit, scary stuff. It’s scary. And even a little gross at times.

Um, grandma’s actually probably grocer probably, you know, when he’d get gremlins, getting blown up in the microwave and they throw them into the blender, you know, and all those sorts of scenes. Uh, definitely not the kind of things you expect from a kids movie and here, you know, the victims really mostly just get taken away.

You don’t really see what happens to them. There is one point where another of, you know, Krampuses little tools is that he kind of dropped a Trojan horse on their, on their front porch the first day after the wish is this big Santa bag. And they take it in the house. And later on in the movie, The toys burst out and they’re demonic toys and this, um, uh, this giant clown Jack in the box swallows one of the twin girls.

And that’s really kind of the only time you actually see anything actually happened. To somebody and all, you really see there is the girl’s shoes going down into the gullet. Um, for the most part, other than that, it’s, it’s people just being dragged away. Uh, which I think is just, just scary. Yes. Oh yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s interesting.

How they really pull no punches in these toys. You’ve got that Jack in the box that you just described, that when it opens its mouth, its mouth kind of comes apart in sections. And it has these rows of teeth in there is pretty horrified. The Teddy bears got these giant rows of teeth and is pretty relentless and attacking.

Um, there’s a Christmas tree angel. Oh my gosh. I was like total demonic, like puppet master, kind of a bride of Chucky kind of. Kind of look to her, very scary, but also kind of isn’t it something you’d like to have  it’s a really cool design. I have to admit. Yes. And as you said, did not pull the punches in the horror department at all, but still they inject quite a bit of comedy.

I mean, the idea of this kid getting swallowed by this giant Jack in the box is pretty inherently funny. And then when you see this sort of lurching across the floor with it in its stomach, I was even thinking back to, uh, Oh, you know, beetle juice does it a nightmare before Christmas, when the giant snake eats the whole tree and you see the giant tree in there, you know, this thing like tr starts crawling through the vent where the duct work in the house and they send the dog after it.

There’s some moments where the dog has. It’s kind of funny how this little dog, who’s basically just been a log throughout the whole movie suddenly jumps up and surprisingly dispatches one of the. Gingerbread man. That was a great scene. Yes. That was really funny. Yeah. And it goes after him, uh, some really funny, cute, hilarious moments in the midst of this really pretty spooky stuff.

And, and there are some, uh, funny little one-liners just kind of dropped here and there. I can’t think of any off the top of my head, but, uh, they are funny and there are definitely are funny moments, but I would say that this is one of, you know, the comedy here. Is as dark as I’ve seen it in quite a while.

I mean, it’s not, it doesn’t bring you out of the scariness. You know, there were times when we laughed out loud, um, some funny stuff, but it doesn’t break the tone of, uh, of the darkness. Some subtle, funny things in there too. One of my favorite parts is when they’re like we got a board up the windows and stuff and the next scene.

They are they’re, they’re a middle-class couple in this almost like McMansion of a house suddenly has access to all these giant boards. And it looks like Barnwood or something. Like it’s not like two by fours. It’s easy. The old weathered stuff. I kind of wondered about that. They pull this crap from the basement, but it’s what you’d expect in a movie like this, you know, it’s very night of the living dead.

It had these random scraps of wood up there, uh, rather silly. Uh, but. You know, I chuckled at that. Yeah. I liked it. It didn’t bother me at all. No, no. I thought, you know, as, as far as tone goes, like you said earlier, a little uneven, I don’t think so. You know, I, I feel like they got exactly what they were going for and it resonated with me.

I liked it a lot. Well, people just get dispatched. We can’t go anywhere. It’s too dangerous. You got it. Howard. How much ammo do you have? A couple of shelves, still loaded, maybe a dozen in my pocket. Why? I think our best bet is to stay put. Board up all the doors and windows. And as soon as the weather breaks, we’ll go.

I told you we should have gone to my brother, Howard Christmas on a pig farm. Jesus was born in apart and we should talk about the old OMA. OMA. Oh, Oh yeah. Oh me. Yeah. Only probably talk about OMI for a second because she’s the one who really lays out the crop is legend to them right after the whole hook in the fireplace thing, they obviously know something messed up is going on.

And, uh, OMI who has only spoken German up to this point, speaks English. And that’s one of, you know, the little, uh, Yeah, Concetta, ferals. The aunt says English. I knew it. You funny, but then she relates this story and Oh my God was this one of my favorite parts of the movie. They go to this flashback sequence from Army’s childhood and it’s all done in Claymation.

And it’s gorgeous. I was thinking if they had chosen to do the whole movie in this style. I would have been absolutely thrilled. Yeah, it was, it was amazing. And the movie lended it well to that style, actually, you know, and again, a little bit more of that nightmare before Christmas aspect kind of coming in.

And what I thought was neat about that was they even played with that style. It was interesting that the girl, uh, OMI in the, in the story was pretty three-dimensional and all the adults in her world were these dark, um, two dimensional, almost paper cutout figures that were coming in and the 3d world.

And then even the crumpets. Her story was that she had gone through something very similar to max where, you know, their village had fallen on hard times. Her parents were struggling and eventually she just, you know, she tried to hold on to the spirit of Christmas, but eventually she just gave up. She gave up hope and the exact same thing happened to her.

Krampus came, took all of her family and left her. She says, as a reminder, Never to lose hope and the spirit of Christmas. Uh, and of course that’s important because it’s exactly what’s going on here. And, and because she’s been through it before, she can kind of give us the exposition and let us know what’s going on, even though it really doesn’t need much experts.

No, you kind of know what’s going on. You’re just wait. Actually, you’re just waiting for, I mean, you’re just like, is this the time when she’s going to come in and tell us, wait a minute. Nope, not yet. Well, she’s remarkably silent through all this until she has slowly needs to be, but he leaves a rebel. The bill that says Crump has written on it.

And that, that is his token to her and she pulls that out. Right. And they all kind of stare at it. So, yeah, that was, that was interesting. Uh it’s like, uh, the polar express sort of flipped on its head. Yeah. Kind of, yeah. I mean the, like you said, the little girl who me, she had kind of a core line kind of look, it was that kind of animation.

Um, But yeah, I mean the whole thing was visually cool. I feel like I may be repeating myself, but I think I got off on a tangent. The Crump has himself is just in silhouette too. He looks kind of like a black, uh, paper cutout in front of this lurid fire. And you can just kind of see his eyes. And as he’s walking out, one of the eyes winks at her.

And so she’s left, she’s been through this before. Yup. So she tells them this and the, and the father, they basically sorta decide we’re up against, uh, you know, something we can’t deal with here in our house. We need to get out of the house, which may or may not be the smartest move that I can remember.

That came before, after the elves broken, that was before. And it was funny because they decide we have to get out. But as soon as they opened the door, they know they’re not going anywhere because as soon as all of this. Started snowmen started popping up in the yard, these very kind of creepy looking snowman and, uh, My understanding was that these snowman were representative of the victims.

Is that accurate? You know, I didn’t think because there was only one first and then the, they found, um, or I think the, the daughter right before she was dispatched, didn’t she find a guy killed in his truck or something. And then she was attacked and then another one appeared. And then I know when the little boy got pulled up the chimney and this is when they, I tried to go outside the, his dad, Howard walks out and sees a smaller snowman and says, Oh, a little Howie.

And then they see these dark creepy, uh, shapes, giggling and running back and forth behind the snowman. And they, they just have to go back in and like scrap that plan, forget that. And then, uh, eventually that is a moment where they turn around and go, Oh God, elves or something in there. The elves burst in through the window.

Oh God. On the elves are terrifying. They’re in, you know, they’re in rags. Um, they’re not tiny, you know, they’re, they’re kind of like short statured, but not tiny. And they’re, so you don’t even know what these look like. Right. And you’re pretty much left your imagination, which was a good call. You know, it was just like keeping the Krampus sort of in silhouette, kind of in the distance, seeing bits and pieces of him until the very end.

Was it another very good call. I agree. And you know, one of the things interesting that I read was, um, in an interview with the director, the director said something about keeping some of Krampuses nature, a secret, and the interviewer said, But you show him full on at the end of the movie. I mean, we see what he is and the director said, Oh, well, that’s a little secret.

I’m keeping, I can’t say anything about it. Just in case there’s a sequel. It looked to me like Krampus was wearing a mask too, which is very reminiscent of trick or treat with Sam. You know, you kind of assume all the way through the movie that. That burlap sack head is his head, but at the end he takes it off and he’s got kind of this demonic alien, uh, look, it made me think that that may be the case with Krampus too.

And maybe hopefully that these two worlds, you know, exist in the same world that the trick-or-treat world and the Krampus world, they’re kind of. Um, the same universe, sort of a holiday, a horror universe. That’d be great. Next, we got the rabbit Easter bunny, you know, just keep bringing these characters in.

That would be nice. It was, it was a good choice. It was a very good choice. And they, they elves drag out the, the great aunt, great aunt who comes in and nobody really liked anyway, but she kind of stepped up to the plate after a little while I was, there was a fun moment where she got to. Have some shotgun action and it was fun and funny, but right after that she’s gone, you don’t tell them hater.

And from there on the movie really goes pretty quickly by the father breaks out his map and says, we’ve got to get here to the mall. And that’s where I thought, I thought, Oh, there’s gonna be a showdown at the mall. It’s gonna make another sort of statement on the holiday, you know, consumption and all that.

Nah, it doesn’t really know. They don’t get very far at all. And this was to me, the scariest part of the movie when the family, and it’s really, we’re now sort of down to what I’ll say, the good father and the good mother and a max we’ve been following out through this whole thing. One of the two sisters who’s left and the aunt is the uncle there.

Well, yeah, I, you know, I don’t remember when he goes. That’s I think he’s still there at that point. I think so. And, uh, they all basically typically join hands and try to brave through the ideas, to get out to the snowplow, start the snowplow and drive out to this mall and hole up there where presumably they’ll be away from their dangerous house and maybe be in a place where they have more resources and in our burial fight.

And chrom has just picked them off one by one, almost in quick succession, just this vision of, and again, we’re back to sort of the sand person Krampus or, or helper or whatever that just sucks. These people under one at a time. So max is sitting here and he’s watching each member of this family slowly get pulled away and they say their goodbyes to each other, essentially.

I mean, the father, the mother’s just sort of standing there, like she knows what’s going to happen. And she says, I love you. And she’s pulled under the snow and the father, like sort of turns around and faces it sort of steadfast closes his eyes poop. He’s pulled under. Um, and it’s just down to max, who is this kid who’s probably never been behind the wheel of a car.

Uh, has tried, got to try to start the snowplow. I mean, it’s ridiculous. There’s no way he’s going to get out of this. Um, And it’s down to him. Yeah, it does. It happens so fast. You know, people are getting picked off left and right throughout, you know, there’s never really any lull, but then right there at the end, when they realized they have to leave the house, because the elves have attacked, Krampus is coming, like he’s coming down the chimney, they have to get out.

And from then on you’re right. It’s just, boom, boom, boom. They are just gone until max is the last one. And I thought that scene was interesting too, even right up to before they left the house, I feel like early on in the movie. Somebody had said something about part of Christmas being about sacrifice.

Yes. I have said repeatedly in there. Yeah. I think the sacrifice of giving. Right. And in fact, the grandmother, when she’s talking about the crumpets legend sort of ends it when she talks about the bell and says he left the bell with me to remind me of the sacrifice of giving. You know, which is an interesting take on giving that you don’t think about, you think about giving, warming your heart and when you give to people, uh, it gives back to you.

But here they’re highlighting the fact that when you give you’re giving something up, you’re sacrificing something. And that is a take that. You really hear it, especially in a holiday movie when it’s supposed to, everything you do is supposed to warm your heart. Right. But, uh, you know, it kind of makes sense, you know, that is the true spirit of giving, you know, it’s, it’s, uh, you know what you’re talking about, you know, it would be a selfish to give just because you’re going to receive good feelings.

That’s exactly what I meant. And, and there at the end, You kind of get a sense of not even necessarily that these people were such bad people, that they need some kind of absolute redemption, but you feel like they get a little bit of redemption and realizing that they have to sacrifice Boomi when everybody else runs out, Boomi stays behind and locks herself in, and she’s going to try to confront the Krampus herself.

You know, the little boy says to the dad, who’s trying to get her to come out. You know, she, she wants to help. She’s going to face, she’s going to face them head on. Um, and she does, but it doesn’t. Work. And then, you know, when they’re running away and the sand monsters are coming, the dad is trying to hold them off.

He’s got this shotgun, but he realizes he’s not going to be able to hold them off. And so he turns to the mom and tells her, go take them and go get in the car and drive and don’t look back and she’s reluctant, but she goes, you know, and that’s kind of his sacrifice. And then as they’re running to the truck, the mother makes sure that she gets.

As many of the kids in the truck before she gets in and she’s able to get max and the one remaining twin girl, she’s able to get them in there. And yet she kind of looks into Max’s eyes and says, I love you as she is grabbed and taken away too. So you know, the adults here and they just go, boom, boom, boom.

They’ve kind of sacrifice themselves to try. To save the kids, even though ultimately it doesn’t work out. Yeah. Oh, and it’s a very bleak moment. I mean, to me, that was just so bleak and that was where I didn’t expect this movie to go was really to the heart of. It was a very depressing thing. I don’t know if you felt the same way, but I, to me that was the core, you know, when you’ve reached sort of the core of my heart, the core of my emotions and where you’ve been taking me through this film the whole time, wow.

They’re not going to outrun this thing. They know they’re not going to outrun this thing and they just give themselves to it. Well, and there is. You know, I think as can kind of be expected with this kind of movie kind of a twist at the end. And I feel like this is the point. We’ve already said a lot about what happens, but at this point, if you haven’t seen the movie, which I hope you haven’t listened to this without seeing the movie first anyway, but if you haven’t and you don’t want to know ultimately how things turn out, turn it off here, because this is really kind of the turning point.

Yeah. We have to talk about this. Right? So at this point it is straight out. You think anyway? Oh, okay. We’re looking at a retelling of a Christmas care. Yeah. Where grandpa’s in all of his cronies are he has a sleigh, his sort of demand. Yeah. Which is nightmarish. Yeah. Oh gosh. Everything about it. I mean, like I said before, Four.

It just takes everything that you think about Santa Claus and flips it and makes it dark and ugly and scary. And that sleigh with those beasts that are, I guess, his, his reindeer, um, very, very frightening. And the, the creepy elves crawling all over it. Um, his demonic toys in the bag, in the back. Super.

Yeah, super scary. He’s got the, the girl that, you know, he was in the truck with obviously tied up in the back. Basically you get the sense that he’s ready to usher all their souls away. Right. And, uh, uh, Krampus has walks up to max and looks at them and you’re thinking, Oh, is he going to get him to. And he hands him a present and his present is, is this the bell?

It’s the bell. And it’s wrapped in the shreds of his Christmas letter. Yeah. Yes. And he, he just drops it on the ground in front of him. Like, here you go. And you did this, this is all you’re doing. He picks it up and chroma starts to walk away and he looks at it and he said, he looks at him, which is exactly what you think is going to happen.

I want my family back and he rejects it. Right. Throws it on the ground. The crown starts to crack open this big pit going into hell, you know, and then, and you’re thinking, Oh, okay. You know, it’s going to swallow. Crop is what’s going to happen. You’re really guessing through this whole time, but you sort of think you have it figured out.

Right. And you know what I’m thinking is. Okay. He’s, he’s gonna give us the relief, you know, uh, and, and what max does is he says, you know, I don’t want this. He says, I just want my family back. Just give me my family back. Um, and he doesn’t really get any response. And so when he doesn’t get any response, he says, okay, then take me instead.

Um, and you think it’s going to be, you know, this kind of act of ultimate sacrifice for him. And it, it seems for a second. That Krampus might be considering it, you know, max is pleading with him, please, please. I take my wish back. I, I want my family back. Um, and you think for a moment, That it’s going to be that movie.

Oh, because it delves right into the cheesy myths of what that is and all the movies, he cries a tear and Crump, his big bite fingers sort of wipes his tear away. And, and at that moment I was starting to get a little disappointed. I was like, well, I guess it had to end this way, but yeah, I’ve seen that before.

Right. And then he just laughs it turns around. Thrill is the, the, the remaining girl into the pit and then picks him up, dangles him over that pit, drops him in. And what were you thinking? I. Kind of expected what happened next to happen? Me too, because it’s screwed. Right, right. That’s right. You know, it’s that last thing where, you know, in a Christmas, Carol, the, it looks like the third ghost to, is the ghost of Christmas future represents death.

Um, it seems like Scrooge is going to meet his demise, but then he wakes up and it’s Christmas morning. And everything is fine. Like nothing ever happened. You know, the, the house is restored. Everything is, you know, it’s bright, sunny, beautiful day outside. And he goes downstairs to find his family intact.

Seemingly unaware of everything that happened friendlier than ever friendlier than ever, you know, passing out hot chocolate is still, you know, there’s a little bit of a little, you know, little ribbing from the cousins and whatnot, but it’s kind of all in good fun, you know, it’s, it’s that thing where Christmas morning you do kind of just let go of whatever it is, you know, you’ve got a grudge or whatever, it’s Christmas just enjoy it.

And it seems like that’s. Uh, what it’s going to be. And at that point I was thinking, I get it. I understand why they would do this. Um, because you know, it is, it would be really dark to have it in with them, just all being plummeted into hell. I thought, you know, if you know, they went for a PG 13 movie, you know, they could have gone for the heart.

Our trick or treat was a hard art. They could have gone for it, but they didn’t. I was thinking maybe they’re considering their audience and thinking. We don’t want to end it on that note. Oh. And it reinforces the point that they’ve been hammering into your head this whole time. It reinforces the cause and effect the dishonor Christmas.

And this happens, but just like Scrooge sort of dishonors the spirit of Christmas, that Christmas is a time for second chances, you know? And so you learned your lesson, you get a second chance to make things right. And then, and then he opens, he had somebody hands him, a gift, little, little gift that opens it up and inside it’s the Krampus bell.

And he pulls it out and he looks at it and suddenly there’s this really creepy. Everybody starts kind of looking at it. Like they all know what this is. Yeah. Yeah. And you can see the memory or the realization wash over their faces. And they remember what happened the night before, and then it starts to pan out.

Quick quick pan out. And you find that a they’re happy holiday home is now in a snow globe in Krampuses later amidst hundreds of thousands, probably about snow Globes, a similar thing that, uh, That happy ending, just flies right out the window. Do you think it worked? Did I do I do. Um, because I, you know, we you’ve seen that before.

You’ve seen the, Oh, it was all a dream and then, no, not really. It wasn’t all a dream. Um, so it’s not like it’s a, a unique device, but it worked for me. And I, you know, as I was coming to terms with, okay, I get why they did this. Then when they pulled it back to the dark, I was like, okay. Yeah, that’s right.

That’s how it’s supposed to end. Yeah. Yes. Not only did they honor the spirit of Christmas, they honored the spirit of Krampus with this film. Yeah. It was a great way of, I thought put taking your sort of traditional holiday tale, telling it in what. At times it was a very straightforward cookie cutter holiday thing.

Well, and that’s what he was going for. That’s in an, in a interview, the director said, I felt he had been fascinated with Krampus since he was a little kid or the idea of an angle, uh, evil Santa Claus had fascinated since he was a kid and he’d always wanted to make a movie. But he could never really come up with the right approach.

And, and eventually he kind of shelved it for awhile and went with trick or treat and then after trick or treat. And that was a success. He decided to come back to it and he thought, really the only way to do this is to make it a true traditional Christmas movie. And in many ways it is very reminiscent of other Christmas movies and it makes its point.

It just makes its point in a sort of bleak way, which is what it should. I agree. I love this movie. Like I said, I went in with, uh, with high expectations. They were met. It’s maybe not as fast paced and mad cap is trick-or-treat, but it’s, it’s it’s well paced. Um, and the acting is good, you know, especially, yeah.

The, the main parents who were played by Adam Scott and Tony Colette and Tony collected a brilliant actress. Anyway, um, I was kind of surprised to see her attached to this film, but I think they must have been aware of the quality of filmmaking that this director is capable and they, you know, they, they, they feel like a real family.

You know, the couple feels like a real couple in the beginning. It’s a little bit strange, but as they kind of go through these trying times together, you really feel the connection between them and. Feel the affection and love, uh, between them and the same thing with max, the kid, you know, he seems very genuine.

Um, nothing is forced, even the funnier characters, you know, it’s, it’s, well-played it’s well acted. I just thought it was and God the cinema. Oh, Oh man. The colors, the lighting and everything. The contrast of the really bright and happy Christmas at the beginning with full of colors, very saturated look, um, very well lit.

To the interiors, when the lights are out, you still have this sort of warmth coming from the fire and coming from the candles. But there’s a lot of the cold blue in the shadow too starts to creep in. And then of course, when they’re outside, it’s just completely bleak. But what a challenge to shoot. In a snowstorm, firemen, an atmosphere, a to, to make that look the way it does and to make it look.

So it still looks so beautiful. It it’s almost other worldly. Yeah. In the way that trick or treat was, you know, uh, it’s like this. Is a, supposed to be a small American town, but this small American town doesn’t really exist. This is like your idealized version of this small American town. Uh, in a sense, this was sort of your idealized version of a Christmas movie.

Um, the way it was. Yeah, absolutely. And again, I just, it seems like so much care and that’s the same thing we said about trick or treat and it really seems like everybody involved. Wanted desperately for this to be a success. And for me it was a hundred percent. I mean, I would, I would watch and we’ll watch this again.

Um, I have a feeling that this will definitely get a repeat in my holiday rotation from now on. No, definitely. In fact, I think I’m going to take my family to see this when I go visit. A couple of weeks. Yeah. Yeah. My dad would love this. Oh gosh. My nephew. I invited my dad to come with us today, but he, he was unavailable.

He was visiting my sister out of town. Oh, what a shame? Kind of a bummer. Well, we’ve obviously gushed over this film. Please go out and check it out. If you get the chance this holiday season and celebrate it in a slightly different way. Yes. Thank you again for listening. If you liked this podcast, please share it with a friend.

Check us out on Facebook. We are actually now up on iTunes, iTunes, and Stitcher, if you want to subscribe to it. So if it’s easier for you to get your podcasts on your iPod or some other device, perfect way to do it as always, you can still go to our website and stream or just download DNP breeze yourself.

We will be back again next week with another Christmas themed horror film. Until then I’m Todd, and I’m Craig. Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas from Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Some say Black Christmas was the first modern slasher movie. We think it’s a little more complicated than that – more of a psychological thriller with feminist overtones, not to mention a killer cast. But if you’re looking for a horror film with real Christmas spirit, leave it to the writer-director of A Christmas Story (yes, really!) to get you in the mood.

Come join us by the yule log as we unwrap this thrilling package.

Black Christmas (1974)

Episode 11, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd:  Welcome to another edition of 2 Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. I’m Craig. And today is December 1st. We thought we kick off the holiday season with a series of Christmas themed horror films. Starting off with what I think is the epitome of the Christmas themed horror film, Black Christmas. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’s one of the big ones. And just to 

Todd:  be clear to everyone listening, we’re talking about the original Black Christmas from 1974, directed by Bob Clark. Correct. And not the newer one. Have you seen the newer one? I have. 

Craig:  It it’s Not as good, Todd. In fact, I I don’t think I would even recommend it. Okay. There the things some of the things that are are unique and good about this, They changed, and it it it didn’t work, at least, in my humble opinion. 

Todd:  You mean the remake actually screwed up the original? 

Craig:  Well, I know. I mean, 

Todd:  it’s hard to believe, but that 

Craig:  I don’t know. You know, even standing alone, Even standing is its own movie. It’s just not a very good movie. It’s it’s very typical slasher, in which, You know, is is what this film is, in a way. In in a way. You you know, they kind of credit Halloween with With establishing that kind of pattern for slasher movies, this actually came before. So maybe the slasher genre owes a little bit to this, but it’s unique in its own way too. 

Todd:  Yeah. I I sort of feel like this one, it it’s sort of the forgotten one. 

Craig:  Right? Yeah. And I don’t know why. I mean, it’s got, you know, people in it that you’re I recognize, you know, some pretty big names, people who’ve gone on to do some, other big stuff, and it wasn’t really received well Initially, I think it did moderately well at the box office. Critics hate it, but that’s no surprise. Critics aren’t usually big Fans of horror, but, over the years, it’s kind of established a cult following, and I think we horror fans are aware of it, but, general public maybe not so familiar. 

Todd:  Like you said, it has names in it that we’d recognize, and a director, Bob Clark, who this is not first Christmas film. Oh, right. He did, a Christmas story. 

Craig:  You know what? I think I knew that at one point, and I had completely forgotten. Now that you say it, I remember. 

Todd:  So, you know, Bob Clark, we have to thank for the dark and the light side, both of holidays, in my opinion. I mean, yeah, you know, Bob Clark had a great career. He did porkies. You know, he’s done both comedy. He’s done the horror. He did a great Sherlock Holmes movie. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it called Murder by No. No.   Starring Christopher Plummer. And if you’ve seen enough of these Bob Clark films, you see a lot of visual the visual style is very similar between all of them. It’s almost as though he shot on the same film stock Uh-huh. With all of them, but in same sort of camera lenses and just the same style that I really appreciate. It’s this classical filmmaking style as far as the cinematography and the way that the shots are lined up and stuff goes. It’s very straightforward, but he adds his own twist to it To really make it his own and to kinda modernize it for 19 seventies, you know, late 19 seventies, 19 eighties. This guy also did Baby Geniuses. Okay? That was one of his that was It’s the last movie.   So Wow. He’s had his hits and he’s had his misses, but he’s a really good director, and I really like what he does. 

Craig:  Yeah. I I mean, I think this is a a quality film. The Acting is good. The cinematography is good. The story is pretty simple, but, effective. I think overall, it’s It stands out as as being a quality film. 

Todd:  And, you know, you mentioned Halloween. It’s clear that John Carpenter has seen this film that was inspired by. I think Halloween came out a few years later or maybe a year or 2 later. Right. Either 79 or 80, if I recall correctly. And this well, this was 1974. Mhmm. And it starts Very similar to how Halloween starts.   Yeah. With that point of view, camera angle of this guy Coming up to a sorority house. And we know he’s a guy because we can hear the breathing. Right. Right. Kind of that Uh-huh. Kind of sinister Point of view shot coming up to the sorority house, the Pi Kappa Sigma house, and it’s Christmas time, and there’s a big party going on inside. Mhmm.   And he peeks in the window, And he looks around, and then we see these arms out in front of him as he grabs the trellis and climbs up into the attic of that house, and that sets it up. 

Craig:  Yeah. And that’s really kind of what, You’re right. Halloween made use of that, but this one takes it even farther in that really when the killer is around, We only ever see from the killer’s POV. You never I mean, you get little glimpses of the killer’s hands or maybe a little bit of silhouette and shadow, but very little. We never see, the killer straight on, and I think that’s a really effective thing. The the writer, of of the movie was not on board with that idea. That was the director’s idea. But when it When all was said and done, the rider ended up being very satisfied and thought that that was actually the right way to go.   And I agree. I think it’s it’s it’s kinda cool. Oh, yeah. 

Todd:  It’s a really good call in a couple ways. I mean, it it’s a good call because it keeps a little bit of a mystery, at at least for us as to maybe the killer that we see in the movie later on. But then you’re right. It’s just that notion that you don’t see him in the shadows. It’s that whole deal that we talked about before about how sometimes less is more Yes. And letting your imagination fill in. Even when we get outside of his POV and there’s a murder or killing going on, we don’t get more than a glimpse of a hand or an eye, right, or or anything like that. And the murders themselves are actually very tame.   They’re not tame in what they are. Right. I mean, people are getting Stabbed people are getting, you know, suffocated, but you it really mostly happens off camera. Mostly. 

Craig:  I mean, you get little glimpses, glances, Glimpses, of of the violence and gore, but it’s not the central focus. And again, you know, that was clearly a very intentional decision that was made, and it is. There Whether it be in literature, whether it be in film or whatever, I really think that sometimes leaving things to the imagination can be far scarier. One of the examples I always use is, funny games. Have you seen Funny Games? I haven’t. It’s it’s a home invasion movie, and it’s kinda typical in that way. But most of the violence and it’s Extremely violent, but most of the violence takes place out of frame. You will have the, it’s a family.   In the family, The action will be going on and and their tormentors. But as soon as the violence starts, all of the people move out of frame, but The camera stays, and so all you you hear everything, and it’s very effective in that movie, and it works it works Tier 2. 

Todd:  Yeah. Hearing things is sometimes even worse. Right. You you when you hear those screams and then your brain is left to the imagination, you know, that’s another thing I think this film does very effectively is the use of sound. Mhmm. We do, we hear, we see shadows, we hear creaking noises both in the silence, The the sort of not so quietness of an old house. Mhmm. 

Clip:  You know, 

Todd:  this is one of those movies that does a really good job of making the house a character. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. And I thought, you know, it’s really a very stereotypical kind of movie sorority house, you know, this big old House and, it it’s decorated for Christmas. It just it feels very real. You know? It it feels like they’ve stepped into an actual Rority House and and just kind of filmed their their story, and it works. Yeah. And it’s cozy too. 

Clip:  Don’t you 

Todd:  get a cozy, yeah, homie. That’s it’s such a good Christmas movie if it wasn’t for people getting murdered. 

Craig:  I know. And that’s funny. You know, the opening shot is just, you know, this it’s, an outside shot of the house and the snow is falling, and the title comes up and it’s black Christmas and it’s kind of in this festive holiday font. I mean, it feels very much Like, you’re getting into a holiday movie, but then it gets into the brutality right away. I mean, the first murder, I think, is not even 10 minutes in. No. It’s really quick. Again, it’s kind of that juxtaposition of having a setting that seems safe and secure and then putting people in peril there.   It’s kind of a it’s a convention that gets used a lot, but well done. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s really good. And that first murder is really what sets in motion. The plot really focuses around that first disappearance Yes. Is what it is to everyone else. Claire, Claire Harrison is the girl who goes upstairs to pack her things. This is, of course, Christmas time, and this is a sorority house. And so they’re all gonna be going home for Christmas.   Some of them are staying, and there’s a house mother in as well who’s coming in and kind of giving them their last that they’re doing a little exchange before they go. 

Clip:  Here we have the queen of Vodvos. Okay? Hey, Mary. Why is it that oh, Mary’s event. I’ve got a shopping. You know I think the store must take tacky lessons this time of year. I’ve never saw such a bunch of stuff. Missus Mac, come in the other room. We’ve got a surprise for you.   Come We got the room. We got a surprise for you. I don’t know if you have 

Todd:  another compliment. This girl goes upstairs to pack her things and, of course, gets killed. Mhmm. And immediately hustled up to the attic. Out of sight, so nobody finds a body, nobody anything. And so when her father shows up the next morning Looking, you know, looking for her and he’s she’s not there, that starts into motion, this question, which is juxtaposed with this that apparently they’ve been having for a little while now, which is that creepy caller Right. Who’s been making these prank calls to them. Really, really interesting. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Craig:  And the first the first time that we get a call is before the 1st murder, and and they say that they’ve been getting these calls. And they call the guy on the other line, The moaner. And, the 1st call is kinda your typical nasty prank phone call. You know? A lot of It just kinda gross sexual stuff and 

Clip:  He’s expanded his act. Could that be 1 person? Oh, Claire. That’s the Mormon Tabernacle Choir doing their annual obscene phone call. 

Craig:  Now maybe you’ve seen this movie multiple times. This is really only my 2nd time seeing it all the way through. I I’m a little confused. Was the initial collar that they had been dealing with for a while. Is that the same guy as the killer, or is it just a coincidence that they had been getting weird phone calls and so they weren’t really particularly surprised when the killer started calling. 

Todd:  Yeah. That’s a really good question. I think it’s left ambiguous, and it may be even be a fault to the script. I don’t know where, Oh, it’s that moaner again. And as we learn out later in the movie, spoiler alert, this is the moaner calling from upstairs. But When they get that 1st phone call, which is clearly the same night that we see through his point of view, him coming into the house, either he was calling Previously, maybe he sort of set this up. Well and 

Craig:  the reason that I wondered is because the nature of the calls changes. You know, you get that first one that’s very sexually suggestive and gross, but then The calls that come after that aren’t like that anymore. It’s it’s still strange, but, instead, the person on the other end of the line is Speaking in different voices, sometimes a feminine voice, sometimes a masculine voice, and not the same voice throughout a call. It’s like He’s having a dialogue with either somebody else who we don’t know is there or himself using different voices. So I don’t know. I I I guess it’s not an easy question to answer. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s a very schizophrenic thing, and I don’t think the movie ever really solves that question, but it is an interesting one you bring up, Especially having seen it a couple times, well, if this was the not the 1st call, then where did the previous calls come from? Right. Yeah. It’s I don’t know. It’s hard to Well, maybe this guy is a little more sort of a thoughtful and planned out kind of guy than we think. Although the nature of the Calls and the nature of everything that goes on that seems to suggest we’re talking about sort of a schizophrenic lunatic. 

Craig:  Right. He keeps calling and he keeps making references. He’s saying In a kind of childlike voice, mommy, mommy, and then in a in a kind of harsh female voice yelling, you know, Billy, don’t do that. And, then sometimes there’s the sound of maybe a baby crying or something. Agnes is a Right. There’s and there’s this whole But that’s part of what I don’t or part of what I like about it is that they never explain that. 

Clip:  Mhmm. 

Craig:  I think that not knowing is kind of creepier. I In fact, the remake goes way into that backstory. You you do see the killer throughout, and you get lots of Flashbacks to the backstory behind these these weird phone calls. And in the remake, it’s you know, this kid was abused by a terrible mother, and There was sexual abuse and there were I don’t know. I think maybe he was responsible for the death of a little sister or something like that, and that’s what drove him to the breaking point. And you do see him throughout the course of the film. And I don’t know why they made this choice, but, like, the killer is, like, Terribly jaundiced. Like, he’s he looks like an Oompa Loompa.   And and it just it’s it’s it’s silly. It it’s it’s not nearly as suspenseful, as as this film is. I didn’t like it nearly as much. 

Todd:  What’s funny, you know, everything you were describing except for the jaundice, it was what My brain was imagining when when you’re trying to sort of piece together this character, because you hear this childlike voice, you hear this mother’s voice, you talk about There’s talk about the baby, and, oh, what did we do? And, oh, we don’t tell her what we did, and don’t let Agnes know. Your your brain is just filling in this backstory of this character so much more effective. And if there had been some flashback scenes in here, it would’ve totally killed it for you. 

Craig:  Yeah. Yeah. It it does. And, you know, like you said, the things are suggested. You kind of put the pieces together. It’s almost at least the sense I got of it was, kind of a Norman Bates kind of thing where, this this killer is kind of, you know, speaking from his own character, but also kind of playing the role of his mother. And there’s the another psycho connection. The 1st girl that he kills, He takes her up to the attic, and he puts her in a rocking chair where she remains for the rest of the the movie.   And he interacts with her at times And and rocks her in the chair. He gives her a little baby doll to hold. I think he says mommy around her sometimes. So it kinda gave me that Norman Bates Kinda feel. And then something I didn’t you know, I’ve seen 

Todd:  this movie enough times, but it wasn’t until this time through it’s always something new, you know, and that’s how you know it’s a good movie. Yeah. It wasn’t till this time through, that last scene that sort of pans out from the house, it just hit me that this first body has been on display In the top window of this 3 story sorority house this entire time, anybody with a pair of binoculars Or maybe who would even just get close enough to the house and bother looking up in that window would have seen the figure that they’ve been looking for the whole Right. 

Craig:  Well, no. It it bothered me a little bit. I tried not to let it bother me because I knew that it would, you know, throw a big wrench in the plot. But not only is the 1st girl’s body up there, But the house mother eventually gets murdered up there, and her body remains up there too. There the police are involved. The whole town is, like, formed a search party. Everybody’s looking. Nobody ever thinks to look in the attic of the house.   No. I I I guess that kinda makes sense. I guess your first thought wouldn’t be, oh, they’ve disappeared into their own home. Yeah. But if you were, you know and and eventually, they don’t find the sorority girl that is is missing, But a local woman also comes to the police station to report her young daughter missing, and the search party does find that girl in a park. So they know there’s a killer out there, but, they don’t they don’t think to check the attic. Oh, well. 

Todd:  Yeah. It’s a really interesting juxtaposition. I mean, especially once the police get involved. And this is another thing about Bob Clark’s films is that he likes to inject a lot of humor into them. And this movie is just dripping with humor. 

Craig:  Oh, yeah. And it’s dark humor, but it’s really funny. And not even all of it is is that dark. Some of it’s just just straight up funny. Yeah. I I read that, Clark claimed That he rewrote a good amount of the the original script and that it was it was him who inserted that comedy in there. And it’s it’s a dark film, and it’s a spooky film, but you’ll but you’ll laugh. We laughed.   The comedy we’ve we’ve watched some other movies recently where the comedy is kind of Put front and center. And that’s not the case here. You know, this is it’s suspense. It’s it’s horror. There are just little moments, of light hearted comedy, and and they work. 

Todd:  Well, you know, I think the pace of the movie has a lot to do with that. This isn’t one of those films where, oh, no. Somebody’s missing and then Almost everybody conveniently is acting normally again 5 minutes later. A lot of these slasher films, oh, no. We discovered Sherry’s body. And then about 10 minutes later, everyone’s acting as though their friends are dead. You know? This is like a genuine concern and really sort of this tone across the film where The the father who’s looking is is staying at the sorority house a little bit, and they have to kind of entertain him. And in the meantime, he’s not approving of Almost anything that’s going on here.   1 of the girls is like a perpetual drunk. She’s played by Margo Kidder, and her name is Barb. And, she’s making lewd comments and talking about watching turtles have sex at the zoo. 

Craig:  Oh, god. And she’s she’s just fall down drunk through the whole thing. 

Clip:  There’s a certain species of turtle that can screw for 3 days without stopping. You don’t believe me, do you? Well, I mean, how could I make something like that? Barb, dear. I I I, no. Really. They just 3 days, 24 hours a day. Can you believe that? 3 days? I’m lucky if I get 3 minutes. Do you know how I know this? Because I went down to the zoo, and I watched them. It was very boring.   Well, actually, I, didn’t stay for the whole 3 days. I went over and I watched Watch the zebras because they only take 30 seconds. Premature ejaculation. 

Craig:  And, you know, Margo Kidder, that’s one of the big names. Was this pre Superman, or is this post Superman? I mean, she she became a pretty big name there for a little while. 

Todd:  I think it’s just pre Superman. 

Clip:  Gotcha. Yeah. I 

Craig:  mean, she’s she’s very young and and beautiful. She she still looks Maybe a little bit too old to be in a sorority, but she plays the character well. She’s the brazen one. You know? The one who’s always smoking, always drinking. They throw a party for under a Christmas party for underprivileged children. She’s giving booze to the kids. She’s a funny character, and, I was kind of you know, I’ve seen the movie before, but it’s disappointing when she goes upstairs to go to bed And you know you that you you’re not gonna get any more 

Clip:  of 

Craig:  her because because she’s a fun presence in the film. 

Todd:  Well, the other person I really enjoy watching is Olivia Hussey. 

Craig:  Oh my god. She’s gorgeous. She is one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen in my life. She, of course, was famous for Romeo and Juliet. I remember that was always the version that they would show us in high school, and she was very young and so pretty in that. And I kinda fell in love with her then. And then, you know, I I know that she’s kind have worked consistently, but it hasn’t been a lot. The things that I, remember her from are this and Romeo and Juliet and It.   She was, one of the lead character’s wives, in 

Clip:  Oh, that’s 

Craig:  right. Stephen King, film. 

Todd:  Mini series. 

Craig:  Yeah. And she was good in that too. Yeah. She’s kind of the central character. She she’s kind of the final girl Uh-huh. Of of this, and she’s so pretty and so soft spoken, and, you really get attached to her. 

Todd:  She’s almost the most she’s again almost the, Jamie Lee Curtis of this film as well in that she’s the more innocent ish. 

Craig:  Ish, But I I also like her in this. And, you know, it it almost had kind of a women’s lib feminist kind of feel to it. You know, she’s this, Yeah. She’s a soft, beautiful girl, but she’s strong willed and strong minded. She calls her boyfriend at the beginning and says that she has urgent news, and he said he can’t meet her until the next day. When she finally does meet him, he’s a concert pianist. She goes to where he’s rehearsing, and, she tells him that she’s pregnant, but that she plans to have an abortion. And, he is very, very much against that.   Later on, he comes back after he fails his recital. 

Todd:  His recital for 3 people? Right. 

Craig:  He he does poorly because I guess he’s worried about the baby or whatever. He comes back to her, at the sorority house and says, you know, I’m I’m quitting the conservatory, And we’re going to get married. And she says, no. We’re not. And I I you know, I’ve got my own dreams, and I’ve got my own things I wanna do, and I don’t want This baby, and that’s the end of it. You know, she really kind of she holds her own. 

Todd:  She does. She doesn’t falter. But she plays it very real. You know? It’s It’s like this would go down in real life. Yeah. She’s not screaming off the wall. Don’t you dare tell me what to do. He’s he becomes a very sinister person in this, and that keys in pretty heavily into the plot.   You know, when he doesn’t when he doesn’t make his his recital doesn’t go well and after his argument with her, He goes back to the conservatory and smashes the piano in with Yeah. With this I mean, that was a little much. 

Craig:  Right. And then, you know, when she says, no. I’m not gonna I don’t wanna marry you, and, You know, he’s saying 

Clip:  Jess, let’s get one thing straight. You You are not going to abort that baby. Peter, you’re not gonna tell me what I can and cannot do. Jess, if you try getting an abortion think you better leave. If you try getting more bored get out. You’re gonna be very sorry. 

Craig:  Yeah. Very ominously. And then he leaves, and it That raises red flags for the police, and it kinda has you as the viewer kind of wondering, maybe this guy was unhinged already, and so maybe he is the killer. Who knows? 

Todd:  Yeah. He does become the, Red herring killer, throughout it, but but there’s very good choices here being made. The abortion thing was really handled well. It was hinted at in the beginning and then it kind of you know, they talk about it openly. I think it’s interesting then there’s a very, Again, it’s these subtle moments that make this movie a great film as opposed to just a cool film. Mhmm. There’s a moment where the carolers come to the door, and This is much later in the film, when Jess, who’s is played by Olivia Hussey, is pretty much alone in the house waiting for the phone call because they’re trying to trace where these calls are coming from by this point. But she opens the door, and there are killers out there as children.   And you can see in her face. And you know based on what she’s talking about earlier, There’s this moment where she’s maybe hesitating about her choices. She’s seeing these kids in front of her. Did did you get that kind of feeling for that? 

Craig:  There’s certainly a subtlety to her performance, and you don’t see that a lot in this type of movie. You know? It’s usually pretty in your face, and, she has a depth of character that is kind of unusual in your typical horror slasher film. And I think that kind of Her performance alone, I think, kind of elevates the film in a way. So, yeah, I agree with you a 100%. 

Todd:  You know, if you wanna see Olivia Hussey in a good horror movie, she did, would have been mid to late eighties. There was a made for TV cycle. Oh, great. Like cycle 4, And it was a prequel. I think they’ve since made another prequel, like, fairly recently, but this was the 1st sort of prequel that went back to try to explain Norman Bates and how he became who he was, and Olivia Hussey plays his mother. Oh. And it is just an out. Honestly You 

Craig:  know what? I’ve seen it. 

Todd:  Have you? 

Craig:  That is so funny. Yes. I have seen it. And and and Norman Bates, is is that the one where he’s, like, calling a a radio therapist or something like that? 

Todd:  I believe so. Mhmm. Yes. 

Craig:  Oh, I have seen it. That’s right. 

Todd:  And she is good in that movie. Good in that movie. Yeah. And just and it’s actually As I remember, it was a really good movie, but I haven’t seen it. No. It’s been so long. I have no idea. We can’t vouch for that, folks. 

Craig:  Yeah. It’ll end up 

Todd:  on a later episode. We’ll see. You know, talking about the house being a character, another thing that it just just the sound designer on this film, which is spot on, Is that in a lot of movies, when you’re quiet your quiet house is a quiet house. Mhmm. There’s no sound. Maybe the sound of a person walking through it or whatever, but that’s it. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  But in this house, there’s a cat in there. It’s an old house, so it just creaks on its own. Right. It’s a drafty house, so, you know, wind kinda gets in the windows. And there’s never a moment of absolute silence in this house. Right. Even in the most suspenseful quiet scenes where they’re going around, You still hear this rush of wind kind of, like, blowing outside like it’s a stormy day. You still hear still hear hear these creeks that really have nothing to do with anybody moving around.   It it really does a good job of setting it up like it’s in your own home. 

Craig:  I agree, and the quiet is really emphasized by the fact that the score is really limited. Mhmm. There’s not a whole lot of score. There is some, in some of the murder scenes and and leading up to some of those scenes, and the score itself is really cool. It’s a a really, discordant, piano sound, and and I read that, the the way that the musical Guy, creative Composer. The composer. I’m getting all technical on you. The the way that he created the sound was that he attached silverware to the piano strings, and it gives it this really kind of Creepy, rattly sound.   It’s it’s very effective. But again, it’s used very sparingly, and a lot of the times it’s just focused on the Quiet in the stillness. 

Todd:  Yeah. In fact, you pretty much know someone’s gonna die when you start hearing those those sounds because that’s about the only time it it comes in. Right? 

Craig:  Yeah. And the other, you know, the other thing. And, again, this is very coincidental, but it’s a movie. You deal with it. Every time there is a murder, there’s something going on that masks the sound. You mentioned the Carolers. There’s a murder when the carolers are there. The 1st murder occurs during a party, and they’re all, screaming and toasting and other things.   The only little qualm that I had about the quietness of the house is that you find out at the end of the film, I think we’ve already mentioned that the calls have been coming from inside the house. Mhmm. And sometimes, Jess, the main girl, sometimes she’ll be talking to the guy on the phone, and there’s nothing else going on, and there’s nobody else in the house making noise, and I kept thinking, why wouldn’t she hear him? Like, she’s listening on the phone, but her other ear is free. And In the phone, you can hear he’s screaming and moaning and 

Todd:  Making a lot of noise. 

Clip:  Right. 

Todd:  And these calls aren’t coming from the attic. They’re coming from just the line upstairs. Yeah. And and I I 

Craig:  think that a couple of the times when he’s on the phone, is he actually committing the murder at the time? 

Todd:  At least once. We know that. Because that’s what was 

Craig:  her name? Phil? Phil. Mhmm. Played by another very recognizable Actress Andrea Martin, who has gone on to do tons of stuff, she’s in, the My Big Fat Greek Wedding movies. Very recognizable. In fact, She came back for the remake. She plays the housemother in the remake. 

Todd:  And how about that housemother? Yeah. 

Craig:  She’s played for the comedy, and I’m so glad she is. Unabashedly so. Oh, yeah. She’s just the she’s this little but rotund kind of woman. And in Every scene, she’s constantly searching out these hiding places where she’s hid these bottles of booze. And she tries to, you know, Put on the the face of the responsible house mother, but really behind anybody’s back, she’s cursing like a sailor and swirling her, Whiskey. Very funny. I read that they wanted, Bette Davis for that role. 

Todd:  Oh, gosh. 

Craig:  It would have been very different. It would have. I liked this lady. She was funny. Good good character actors. 

Todd:  And and when she dies, they don’t really realize she’s missing, do they? They just kinda figure she’s left. 

Craig:  Yeah. I think that she was gonna be leaving too. I mean, that’s the thing. The the disappearances are kind of explainable because people are leaving. 

Todd:  Which is like life again. Right. 

Clip:  You know? You don’t track of everybody all the time. 

Todd:  Oh, he must have left the party. Oh, she must be sleeping or whatever. Sometimes she is in the room. You think she’s sleeping, but she’s, you know, been stabbed by a crystal Unicorn. Unicorn. That happens. 

Craig:  Yeah. By yeah. At the end of the movie, they still don’t know that she’s dead. No. I mean, she’s just hanging up there, in the attic, which they still haven’t checked. And so yeah. So they they never as far as we know, they don’t find out that she’s dead for a while. 

Todd:  Well and The the film too is is nice in that I’m like, I’ve seen a lot of sorority house type horror films, and They always end up with a pillow fight 

Clip:  and all. 

Craig:  They’re in the showers 

Todd:  and stuff. Right. They’re they’re playing goofy games or they’re on the Ouija board or things like that. This is totally like a sorority 

Craig:  house would be. Yeah. These girls seem very real. Now, of course, Olivia Hussey is very beautiful. Margo Kidder has a very unique distinct look. But beyond that, The girls just look like real girls that you would know. You know, the the lady I just mentioned, Andrea Martin, she’s, you know, got glasses and curly hair. She’s not Stereotypically gorgeous.   She’s cute. She’s pretty, but 

Todd:  But you’re not stereotypically mousy either. Right. 

Craig:  No. Just very real characters. 

Todd:  Then they, of course, interact with the policemen. And, again, More of the nice subtlety in here is that actual college feel where these are kids removed from the town. Mhmm. You know? There are a few little jokes, a few little comments they’re made about townies Yeah. And about people from the town. And you get the sense they’re at a town that’s maybe they’re a little Midwest, maybe they’re a little more Southern. Well, it’s never really said where they 

Craig:  are, is it? It no. But it feels very suburban. Mhmm. 

Todd:  And the, the the police station’s Heather Small. There are 2 detectives there, a few policemen. 

Craig:  Yeah. There’s lieutenant Fuller who’s played by John Saxon who 

Todd:  Always ends up in these movies. 

Craig:  Always ends up As the cop in these movies that he, played, Heather Langenkamp’s dad in a nightmare on Elm Street. Again Yeah. The the police officer searching out. Yeah. 

Todd:  For the murder, Larry. 

Craig:  For the killing killing But he’s good. I mean, I I like him in this, in this. 

Todd:  And and that other cop who sort of played for comic relief as well. Although as I realized again in this film is sort of responsible. His bumbling kind of screws over Jess at the end. Yeah. Because he’s the one and we only hear it, And we only see his shoulder, but he’s the one who says, alright. Now you be sure to, you know, lock everything up and make sure everything’s good. And he just looks in on her And flips the light off in her bedroom Right. Leaving her pretty much forgotten and vulnerable in the house when nobody intended to do that. 

Craig:  Yeah. The way that it plays out is, you know, we figure out very early on that the the killer is in the house. That’s not hidden from us, the audience. But, of course, the girls don’t know, and so they kinda get picked off 1 by 1. Claire gets picked off while she’s packing, then the housemother, you know, she’s looking around and She stumbles upon Claire and then she gets killed. Margo Kidder’s character is drunk, passes out in bed, and she gets killed there. And it’s, you know, it’s paced well so that there is a murder every so often, but eventually, we get down to the final girl, Which is Jess. And the police have been trying to trace the phone calls, and they finally do.   This was a little moment of unintentional hilarity For me, the the tracing of the phone call. Now I don’t know if this is really how this ever worked, but it was hilarious. It was like, in order to trace the phone call, Jess had to the guy on the line because the guy who was doing the tracing had to find where it was coming from. And in order to do that, he had to run around in what looked like a huge warehouse full of switchboards and find the one that was currently in use and plug into it. Funny. What he was following 

Todd:  When he was running and doing that, it’s it’s completely unclear to me. 

Craig:  I have no idea, but it made the process. It made me appreciate phone tracers. If it’s really that difficult of a job, not only is it complicated, but it’s aerobic. And to run around, check all the Different outlets. 

Todd:  Well, the thing I’ve always found funny is, oh, it’s always such a hassle to trace them, but the phone company doesn’t ever seem to have any trouble billing you. 

Clip:  Oh, you get that bill that you don’t remember. 

Todd:  We used to get those bills and and listed on. It was every phone number that was, that was called 

Craig:  and done. But, anyway, so then she’s the last 1 in the house. The cop calls. He’s not supposed to tell her that the killer is in there, but he can’t convince her to get out, so he finally spills that information. But she still thinks that 2 of the girls are still alive upstairs. She doesn’t realize that, Barb and, 

Todd:  Phil had been dispatched. 

Craig:  Had had been dispatched. And so she wants to go and and check on them. So she does. She goes up there. She finds Their bodies and that is when Billy, the killer, makes his appearance to her. And that’s kind of, I think, probably the most iconic scene from the film. You just see through the crack in the door, his wide glaring eye, and he’s kind of doing his whispering mumbly thing, and she sees him. 

Todd:  It’s a crazy looking eye. 

Craig:  Yeah. 

Todd:  It is the craziest. It’s the kind of eye to give you nightmares. Right. 

Craig:  And it funnily enough, Nobody knows who that is. 

Todd:  Bob Clark couldn’t remember. Yeah. Couldn’t remember who it was. Photography couldn’t, yeah. 

Craig:  But, but And then it’s it’s kind of a chase through the house and then not really a very long one. No. Usually, in these, you know, kind of movies, that that last chase is is pretty extensive, and there’s usually, you know, some struggle and then a runaway and then catch you again in more of a struggle. This, he just kinda chases her for a little bit. He gets his hands on her hair once and pulls her down, but she’s able to get up and away, and she goes down and locks herself in the basement. And he, at first, is is pounding on the door, but eventually, he stops. And you hear footsteps walk away, and you hear the back door close. 

Todd:  Then in the sort of shadow of the basement windows, you see a figure coming down and is trying to get in. 

Craig:  Right. 

Todd:  And that is, as and then a hand breaks through to actually come in, and it turns out to be Peter, Jess’s boyfriend. And this is a point at which we’re also maybe wondering if if there’s isn’t going to be some strange reveal here. 

Craig:  Mhmm. It could be. It could be. I mean, it leaves it. You’re still wondering. It doesn’t seem so. 

Clip:  No. 

Craig:  I mean, you think you know what’s going on. You think that there’s a different guy in the house, But the way that the pieces fall, plausibly, it could be the other guy, and that’s what, Jess is left thinking. You know? She doesn’t know, and and, she thinks that it is him. 

Todd:  And so the cops end up coming in because they’ve traced The call 

Craig:  and And they hear screaming as they’re coming in. 

Todd:  They break down into the basement, and they find her with him on his with Peter in his lap, and she’s holding a poker from the fire. And he’s bloody, and she’s got some blood on her. And at first, you think they’re both dead Uh-huh. But then her eyes flitter, and they take her away. And From there on, again, it’s a beautiful moment in the soundtrack where everything is almost told to you off screen sound. We see Jess in the bed, And the doctor is sort of bent bent over her and pulls up and says, oh, it’s gonna be a few hours before she shuts it. Right. Yeah.   And, the cop is like, well, we’ve gotta deal with all this press and, oh, let’s get them out of there. And the doctor’s like, don’t worry. I’ll sit here and wait with her. But then the father of, the 1st girl, Claire, who’s sort of been hanging around the whole time, faints probably at the prospect of having Right. 

Craig:  They say he’s in shock. We have to get him to the hospital. 

Todd:  So that gets the doctor out of the room, and he you know, then the other person who’s in the room helps him with him and takes him downstairs, and you sorta hear everything happening. And Everyone sort of forgets about Jess upstairs. Right. And, anyway, they think they’ve solved the problem. Right. 

Craig:  They think they have the killer or he’s he’s dead, So threats gone. Yep. And then it just slowly pans back out of her bedroom where she’s, you know, sleeping peacefully on top of the bed, and And it pans down the hall back up to the, ladder for the attic, which we have seen multiple times. We know that’s where Billy has been hanging out. And once again, we hear the creepy mumblings, the creepy giggling. We cut to a shot outside the house where there’s a police guard standing outside, but the house is completely dark. And the very last thing we hear is the phone ringing again. And every 3 time the phone is rung before, it was either right after or during one of the murders.   So poor Jess. I don’t know. 

Todd:  It’s a slightly ambiguous ending, but I think we’re just meant to put the puzzle pieces together there. 

Craig:  Yeah. When the distributor saw the ending, they wanted the they wanted the director to change it. What they wanted, which didn’t happen, you know, the Bob Clark stood his ground, but what they wanted to happen was for Jess to be left Alone in that room with Chris, who was the boyfriend of Claire, the the first one who had died and who had been around and searching throughout. Jess was gonna be left in there with him at which point he was going to say, don’t worry, Agnes. It’s me or something like that. And then they’re right. Right. Right.   So they wanted Chris to be the killer, but, 

Todd:  That would’ve cheapened the heck out of 

Craig:  this one. So. Wow. And that would’ve been it would’ve been So out of left field that it would have felt like you’ve been punked, 

Todd:  you know, like Well, there would have been so many loopholes, 

Clip:  you 

Todd:  know, because he was with the search party and, You know, we had seen it just once you start doing POVs, once you know the murderer’s hideout, you know, and that he’s pretty much up there most of the time, It becomes very hard. 

Craig:  And besides, nobody in a coat that glorious could possibly be a murderer. 

Todd:  I guess he still has that 

Craig:  coat. That’s right here. 

Todd:  But it is a glorious fur coat. Sign of the times. Well, other signs of the times too, the the filmmaking style, you see a lot of zooms. 

Clip:  You know, 

Todd:  that’s not something you see very often, but they’re done very effectively. They’re not done quickly in order to shock or anything. This is what a lot of horror movies this time we’re doing. Yeah. They’re they’re done very slowly. And Bob Clark, has a very nice style of taking his time, and He does it in a way that’s interesting and that maintain suspense instead of extending the movie and making it boring. Right. I felt a lot like Fargo When I was watching this movie, and it’s some of it’s just slice of life.   Yeah. And it’s it’s sort of slice of life boring, but it’s not boring because it’s not Played boring. Right. You know, I think of all the unnecessary bits in the police station when, when the girls are messing with The kind of bumpkin cop, and, he writes down fellatio. Mhmm. She tricks him into writing fellatio down as part of the phone number, and he doesn’t know what that is. Right. And he comes in, he talks to the detectives, and then, you know, he hands him the phone number and he leaves.   You don’t really know what’s going on, but the shot lingers in there, and the detectives are giving each other looks, and they’re, like, laughing. Right. And, like, you know, like, what is this? And the and the scene should have ended. And they go back in and they It’s about this number, you know, and they kinda talk about it. It’s just that sort of in the same as Fargo. In the midst of these horrible things happening, these people were investigating these terrible crimes, Life still goes on. Right. You know? And life stills, interestingly enough, not like in the movies, goes on kind of as it always does.   People don’t stop and sit around and huddle in fear all the time whenever something happens. Eventually, you know, you kind of continue your daily routine in this in the midst of it. And this movie does a really good job of that, I think. Not just in the police station, but in the search party scenes, in the scenes in the house. Right. 

Craig:  In the scenes, between Jess and Phil when they’re kind of the last 2 in the house, and they’re concerned and they’re worried and they have moments. Phil has a moment where she breaks down and cries, But then they also, you know, just kind of carry on. It it it does feel kind of real, and I think it’s a different kind of horror movie. It really relies more on the suspense. I would almost even say it’s it’s kind of more like a thriller, like a psychological thriller. If it weren’t for, you know, the the creepy insane guy. I mean, that’s that’s just Legitimately scary. Insanity is is a a frightening thing.   But beyond that, it it it feels like something that could Happen. Like, you you wouldn’t expect a a a slaughter in a sorority house to really happen, but it doesn’t rely on The horror cliches that so many of them do, like you said, with the boobies and lots of jump scares. There really aren’t a lot of jump scares here. I mean, there are some jumpy moments, But they’re drawn out. Like, you know somebody’s gonna jump out, but it they take their time. 

Todd:  You’re waiting for it. Right. 

Craig:  Right. And and I like it. Yeah. You don’t Really see a lot of films like this anymore, and that’s a really general statement. You know? There’s really quality Films out there. Calling this a really quality film. You know, I don’t know if I go that so so far, But it’s a good movie, and and I think that they were really successful in what they were trying to do. 

Todd:  I don’t know, man. I’d call it a quality film. I mean, I really would. It it and I get back to cozy. It does such a good job of it could be like, it could be like, for example, Gremlins. Right. Gremlins Takes place during Christmas Yeah. 

Clip:  But you’d hardly know it. 

Todd:  Right? You take out a few Christmas trees and some snow on the ground, and and I guess maybe later on in the film, it becomes a little more of a deal, but not really. This film just reeks of Christmas all the way it does. And not because of the you know, there’s a Christmas tree in every scene or whatever, but it’s cozy, and you have that feeling of, oh, this is that time of year When everybody’s kind of leaving and saying goodbye, and here we are in this house by the fire while it’s blowing and windy out. 

Craig:  Traditional Christmas music Throughout yeah. I mean, it definitely feels like a Christmas movie, which is kind of, I I think I don’t remember any movies before this that were Seasonal that were, like, centered around 

Todd:  4 films. 

Craig:  Right. Like, centered around a holiday. There have been all kinds now. You know? Halloween and April Fools’ Day and Mother’s Day. Virtually every holiday you can think of. Thankskilling. 

Todd:  Has there been a thanks killing yet? 

Craig:  I don’t know. 

Todd:  Maybe not yet. I don’t No. Just that Eli Roth Yeah. Wizardry. Right? 

Craig:  But it is. I mean, it the there and like you said, you know, he did a Christmas story too. It kind of has that same feel. It feels just like It feels like the same sort of town and community. A lot of the shots are very Similar like the outside shots of the house are very reminiscent of the outside shots of the house in a Christmas story. So it does have kind of that quaint holiday feel to it, And then you throw in the other element and, how it works, I’m not really sure, but it does. And maybe well, 

Todd:  you know, Bob Clark wrote Christmas story. So maybe he was drawing from some of those same feelings and emotions. Yeah. I mean Maybe. It’s not too much of a stretch. The they’re they’re just those Cozy earth tones throughout. This the colors are very muted in this film. 

Craig:  Yes. Natural. Very natural. Mhmm. 

Todd:  It’s really it’s really nice. I don’t know. It just feels warm. For a horror film, it feels awfully warm. 

Clip:  Yeah. 

Todd:  And I think that’s an accomplishment. You know? I really do. I I think there’s clearly a lot of care, that went into crafting it. A lot of thought behind the writing. As you said, some fantastic actresses, and actors, just doing stellar performances. 

Craig:  Yeah. The acting is really solid. 

Todd:  And and a really just nice ambiguous ending that does not disappoint. So many horror films will you you’re with them right up until the end, and then, You know? Oh, that ending sucked. You know? 

Craig:  Well and I thought that it was an a great ambiguous ending, and I, you know, I I don’t know if it would necessarily be a good idea, But it leaves it wide open for a sequel. And I guess I guess the fact that it didn’t do particularly well at the box office kind of probably Squashed any of that if there was ever any talk of it, which I don’t know. But, I mean, it definitely left it open for it. The killer is still very much there. Nobody knows who he is. We don’t know who he is. It it it wouldn’t be a stretch of the imagination that he would continue, on this murderous spree. But I I like the ambiguity of it, and I kinda like that It it’s not a everything gets tied up neatly, the good guy wins kind of movie. 

Todd:  Yep. I wouldn’t wanna see a sequel movie without Olivia Hussey. 

Craig:  I would love to see her. 

Todd:  Alright. Well, thank you very much for joining us on this first of our series of holiday films this December. Meet with us next week for another episode. Until then, this is Todd. And I’m Craig. With 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.