Neil Chilson has written a great new book: Getting Out of Control: Emergent Leadership in a Complex World. He and host Corbin Barthold discuss the book, complexity, emergent phenomena, effective leadership in a fast-changing world, and the need for epistemic humility in policymaking (and elsewhere). Also covered: fractals, free will, and the risks of taking advice from hermits in caves. Neil is a senior research fellow for technology and innovation at Stand Together and a former chief technologist at the Federal Trade Commission.