In today’s episode, we dive deep into how the systems around us—medicine, culture, even religion—can deplete our humanity when we’re not paying attention.

I’m joined by Dr. Joan Chan, who brings her unique perspective of growing up in a fundamentalist Christian household, deconstructing black-and-white thinking, and navigating her career as a family physician through boundary-setting, and rehumanization.

Together, we explore how deindoctrination—whether from dogma or systemic norms—can actually bring us closer to creativity, innovation, and truly humane care.

If you’ve ever felt trapped between "just work harder" and "this isn’t sustainable," this episode will help you find your way back to the messy, liberating middle place where real solutions live.

We cover:

• Why surgeons can become unintentionally "scary" in a dehumanized system
• How depleting the system of humanity is dangerously short-sighted
• The fact that women physicians lose their longevity advantage compared to the general population (spoiler: it's the profession, not the gender)
• The connection between growing up with black-and-white thinking and entering rigid medical systems
• Joan’s personal journey: deconstructing religious dogma and deconditioning from overwork as virtue
• The trauma of realizing the rules you were taught aren't always humane — and learning to think for yourself
• How medicine can feel like religion: follow the dogma or be labeled a heretic
• The impossible math of family medicine (and, let's be real, every specialty): why no doctor can follow every guideline and stay sane
• The essential practice of setting boundaries around administrative burdens
• Reframing "saying no" as a sign of humanity, not laziness
• Why less work doesn’t mean less care (and why we urgently need more people doing less, not fewer people doing more)
• Moving from the drama triangle (villain, victim, rescuer) to the empowerment dynamic (creator, challenger, coach)
• How emotions protect us — and why success is often a terrible teacher while failure is a fantastic one
• Using curiosity, creativity and experimentation (instead of rigid certainty) to innovate in medicine
• Deindoctrinating ourselves from toxic beliefs about work, worth, and emotions
• Why the truth doesn’t break—and how to trust yourself (and your patients) as experts of your/their own lives
• Taking the same precision you use in surgery to cut out what no longer serves you

If you loved this conversation, you can get more Dr. Joan Chan in your life by listening to her podcasts, The Other Human in the Room and Experiential Anatomy. Follow her on instagram here and find her website here.

If you are a surgeon looking to humanize your life, I’ve got the perfect program for you. Learn more about Empowered Surgeons Group here.