August 24, 2025

650: Michelle "Mace" Curran - Building a World-Class Team, Running an Excellent Debrief, Rebuilding Trust, Feedback Loops, & How To Turn Fear Into Your Superpower

1 hour 5 minutes

Go to www.LearningLeader.com for full show notes

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My guest: Michelle “Mace” Curran is a combat veteran, former fighter pilot, and only the second woman in history to fly as the Lead Solo for the Thunderbirds, the U.S. Air Force’s elite demonstration squadron. Now on a new mission, she’s using her story to inspire others. She is the best-selling author of The Flipside: How to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear Into Your Superpower.

How to run "debrief" so that giving and getting feedback becomes embedded in your culture.
The biggest mistake Michelle made when she became a new fighter pilot, and what you can learn from it.
- Early Exposure to Male-Dominated Environments – Michelle's dad took her hunting with guys starting at age 7, teaching her she "belonged in any room" she wanted to pursue. This early experience prepared her for being 1 of only 2% female fighter pilots.
- Parents Who Believed in Wild Dreams – Parents worked multiple jobs to afford camps (criminal justice, archaeology) whenever Michelle showed interest in something new. Taught her that opportunities weren't just possibilities - "I could go after it."
- The Lone Wolf Trap – When struggling in her first squadron, Michelle was afraid to ask questions because she thought it would show she didn't belong. "I wouldn't even ask questions because I felt like asking a question was just so uncomfortable."
- Three Years of Struggling in Silence – Despite performing well in the air, Michelle spent three years "belly crawling, pulling myself by my fingernails" because she felt pressure to represent all women perfectly.
- The Fresh Start Power – Moving from Japan to Texas gave her a reset: "No one here knows about my divorce. No one here knows all these struggles I've been going through." Sometimes you need a clean slate to rebuild.
- Curiosity + Vulnerability = Community – The breakthrough came when fellow pilots asked pointed questions beyond platitudes: "How are you actually doing?" Real curiosity that goes deeper than "let me know if you need anything."
- The Near Head-On Collision Story – Flying inverted at 500 mph, passing within 80 feet of another jet using only eyeballs for distance measurement. When her student pilot aimed straight at her, she had 2.5 seconds to decide whether to move or hold position.
- Learning from Mistakes, Not Punishing Them – After the near-collision, Michelle chose teaching over berating: "What is the most productive way we can respond to get the most learning from that?" The student learned faster because he found the boundary.
- The Debrief Culture Framework – Start with objectives, go through segments systematically, ask "why" five times to find root causes, create specific lesson learned, and share with the entire organization so others don't repeat mistakes.
- Rank Comes Off in Debriefs – Even generals sit in debriefs led by mid-level captains who are the real tactical experts. "Status comes off" - expertise matters more than hierarchy when analyzing performance.
- The Teaching-Learning Loop – Moving from student (year 1) to instructor (year 2) creates exponential learning: "Your students will teach you more than you probably learned when you were a student."
- Time Distortion Under Extreme Stress – During the near-collision, Michelle experienced "the craziest temporal distortion" where "time slows down" but "you can't do anything faster than you normally can."
Build Competence First, Then Serve Others – Advice for young people: Spend 6-8 years building skills and confidence, then "reach a hand back" to mentor others. Both phases are essential for maximum impact.
Quotes:
- "They endlessly believed in every wild dream I set my sights on."
- "I learned my vocabulary of profanity expanded greatly... but I also learned I could hang in that environment."
- "I went into it naively thinking that it didn't matter at all... and it's a little bit different as you get into the military."
- "There's no fear when you're present. Fear is a future thing."
- "Curiosity plus vulnerability equals community."
- "What is the most productive way we can respond at this point to get the most learning from that?"
- "More learning happens in the debrief than actually does during the flight itself."
- "The egos that people see in Hollywood around fighter pilots... what they don't show is the humility that has to happen behind the scenes."
- "It's not self-centered to spend that first six to eight years focused on learning and honing skills."
- "You get to reach a hand back... and it becomes one of the most fulfilling things for you as well."
Life Lessons:
- - Expose Children to Challenging Environments Early – Like Michelle's hunting trips, give kids experience in situations where they're the minority or outsider to build confidence.
  - Support Wild Dreams with Action – Don't just say you believe in someone's goals - invest time and money in giving them exposure to those fields.
  - Ask for Help Before You're Drowning – The biggest mistake is thinking asking questions shows weakness. Everyone expects beginners to have questions.
  - Create Psychological Safety for Mistakes – Focus on learning from errors rather than punishing them. The response to mistakes determines future trust and performance.
  - Build Debrief Culture in Your Organization – Set clear objectives, analyze systematically, find root causes, create specific action items, and share lessons broadly.
  - Use Fresh Starts Strategically – Sometimes changing environments gives you the reset needed to implement new behaviors and shed old baggage.
  - Go Beyond Surface-Level Check-ins – Real community comes from curiosity that goes deeper than "how are you?" Be willing to ask uncomfortable follow-up questions.
  - Practice Temporal Awareness Under Stress – In high-stakes situations, your brain may speed up while time seems to slow down. Prepare for this distortion through practice.
  - Separate Expertise from Hierarchy – The most knowledgeable person should lead analysis sessions, regardless of their position in the org chart.
  - Balance Self-Development with Service – Early career should focus on building competence; mid-career should emphasize mentoring others.
  - Accept That High Performance Requires High Standards – Like the Thunderbirds' 70-foot separation at 500 mph, excellence often means operating with minimal margin for error.
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By Ryan Hawk

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August 24, 2025

650: Michelle "Mace" Curran - Building a World-Class Team, Running an Excellent Debrief, Rebuilding Trust, Feedback Loops, & How To Turn Fear Into Your Superpower

1 hour 5 minutes

Go to www.LearningLeader.com for full show notes

How to run "debrief" so that giving and getting feedback becomes embedded in your culture.
The biggest mistake Michelle made when she became a new fighter pilot, and what you can learn from it.
- Early Exposure to Male-Dominated Environments – Michelle's dad took her hunting with guys starting at age 7, teaching her she "belonged in any room" she wanted to pursue. This early experience prepared her for being 1 of only 2% female fighter pilots.
- Parents Who Believed in Wild Dreams – Parents worked multiple jobs to afford camps (criminal justice, archaeology) whenever Michelle showed interest in something new. Taught her that opportunities weren't just possibilities - "I could go after it."
- The Lone Wolf Trap – When struggling in her first squadron, Michelle was afraid to ask questions because she thought it would show she didn't belong. "I wouldn't even ask questions because I felt like asking a question was just so uncomfortable."
- Three Years of Struggling in Silence – Despite performing well in the air, Michelle spent three years "belly crawling, pulling myself by my fingernails" because she felt pressure to represent all women perfectly.
- The Fresh Start Power – Moving from Japan to Texas gave her a reset: "No one here knows about my divorce. No one here knows all these struggles I've been going through." Sometimes you need a clean slate to rebuild.
- Curiosity + Vulnerability = Community – The breakthrough came when fellow pilots asked pointed questions beyond platitudes: "How are you actually doing?" Real curiosity that goes deeper than "let me know if you need anything."
- The Near Head-On Collision Story – Flying inverted at 500 mph, passing within 80 feet of another jet using only eyeballs for distance measurement. When her student pilot aimed straight at her, she had 2.5 seconds to decide whether to move or hold position.
- Learning from Mistakes, Not Punishing Them – After the near-collision, Michelle chose teaching over berating: "What is the most productive way we can respond to get the most learning from that?" The student learned faster because he found the boundary.
- The Debrief Culture Framework – Start with objectives, go through segments systematically, ask "why" five times to find root causes, create specific lesson learned, and share with the entire organization so others don't repeat mistakes.
- Rank Comes Off in Debriefs – Even generals sit in debriefs led by mid-level captains who are the real tactical experts. "Status comes off" - expertise matters more than hierarchy when analyzing performance.
- The Teaching-Learning Loop – Moving from student (year 1) to instructor (year 2) creates exponential learning: "Your students will teach you more than you probably learned when you were a student."
- Time Distortion Under Extreme Stress – During the near-collision, Michelle experienced "the craziest temporal distortion" where "time slows down" but "you can't do anything faster than you normally can."
Build Competence First, Then Serve Others – Advice for young people: Spend 6-8 years building skills and confidence, then "reach a hand back" to mentor others. Both phases are essential for maximum impact.
Quotes:
- "They endlessly believed in every wild dream I set my sights on."
- "I learned my vocabulary of profanity expanded greatly... but I also learned I could hang in that environment."
- "I went into it naively thinking that it didn't matter at all... and it's a little bit different as you get into the military."
- "There's no fear when you're present. Fear is a future thing."
- "Curiosity plus vulnerability equals community."
- "What is the most productive way we can respond at this point to get the most learning from that?"
- "More learning happens in the debrief than actually does during the flight itself."
- "The egos that people see in Hollywood around fighter pilots... what they don't show is the humility that has to happen behind the scenes."
- "It's not self-centered to spend that first six to eight years focused on learning and honing skills."
- "You get to reach a hand back... and it becomes one of the most fulfilling things for you as well."
Life Lessons:
- - Expose Children to Challenging Environments Early – Like Michelle's hunting trips, give kids experience in situations where they're the minority or outsider to build confidence.
  - Support Wild Dreams with Action – Don't just say you believe in someone's goals - invest time and money in giving them exposure to those fields.
  - Ask for Help Before You're Drowning – The biggest mistake is thinking asking questions shows weakness. Everyone expects beginners to have questions.
  - Create Psychological Safety for Mistakes – Focus on learning from errors rather than punishing them. The response to mistakes determines future trust and performance.
  - Build Debrief Culture in Your Organization – Set clear objectives, analyze systematically, find root causes, create specific action items, and share lessons broadly.
  - Use Fresh Starts Strategically – Sometimes changing environments gives you the reset needed to implement new behaviors and shed old baggage.
  - Go Beyond Surface-Level Check-ins – Real community comes from curiosity that goes deeper than "how are you?" Be willing to ask uncomfortable follow-up questions.
  - Practice Temporal Awareness Under Stress – In high-stakes situations, your brain may speed up while time seems to slow down. Prepare for this distortion through practice.
  - Separate Expertise from Hierarchy – The most knowledgeable person should lead analysis sessions, regardless of their position in the org chart.
  - Balance Self-Development with Service – Early career should focus on building competence; mid-career should emphasize mentoring others.
  - Accept That High Performance Requires High Standards – Like the Thunderbirds' 70-foot separation at 500 mph, excellence often means operating with minimal margin for error.
Apply to be part of my Learning Leader Circle