What happens when you’ve optimized everything… and growth still stalls? In this episode, Dan and Ian break down a powerful distinction most founders miss: the difference between optimization (making your business run smoother) and growth (finding and testing new paths to scale). They unpack insights from Growth Levers by Matt Lerner, a framework that helped PayPal and other startups unlock massive growth and why it still applies to bootstrappers today.

You’ll also get a behind-the-scenes look at how Dan and Ian run operations in under 5 hours per week using the “Four Bricks”: financials, a measured plan, individual scorecards, and pulse meetings (aka the Daily Huddle). Plus: why growth experiments often fail, how to avoid optimization creep, and how interviewing your customers using the “Jobs to Be Done” framework can reveal the 10% that leads to 90% of your growth.

LINKS:

CHAPTERS:

(00:00:13) Intro: Founders, Channels, and What’s Working in 2025

CONNECT:

[email protected]

Past guests on TMBA include Cal Newport, David Heinemeier Hannson, Seth Godin, Ricardo Semler, Noah Kagan, Rob Walling, Jay Clouse, Einar Vollset, Sam Dogan, Gino Wickam, James Clear, Jodie Cook, Mark Webster, Steph Smith, Taylor Pearson, Justin Tan, Matt Gartland, Ayman Al-Abdullah, Lucy Bella.

PLAYLIST:

“It’s easier to 10X than to 2X” + 8 Lessons from CEO Bootcamp

Building ‘Brick by Brick’: Goals, Plans, Scorecards, Cadence

90-Day Growth Plan in 10 Questions

The Wheel of Despair and the Paradox of Growth