Many of us have been grieved by the polarization we see rending so many churches. What role has this played in America’s growing secularization and what our guest has called “the great dechurching”? And is that dechurching now actually in reverse? Fundamentally, what can we do to pursue the flourishing of both the church and the nation?

In this episode, our guide is Ryan Burge, an ordained minister, best-selling author and professor of practice at the Danforth Center on Religion and Politics at Washington University. 

His book The Vanishing Church draws upon his scholarship as a data scientist, and his experience as a pastor, to explore how the church has been harmed by, and can offer healing from, the excesses of political combat and division:

"[Attending church] is just good for your soul. It's just good for you as a person to be part of a community like that ... I think it's actually going to be good for democracy for you to realize what it's like to go ... get in the real world and realize it's actually a cool place to hang out, and there's value in that."

This episode is drawn from an online conversation recorded in 2026. Please subscribe to this podcast - it helps people find us.

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