Becoming Ultra

Steve Durbin has spent more than 20 years creating races, welcoming runners, solving problems behind the scenes, and building events that people return to year after year.

He started Land Between the Lakes in 2004, when there was only one other active ultra in Kentucky. What began with 90 runners grew into an event Steve describes as a "family reunion" - a philosophy that has carried through his years as a race director.

Scott and Steve talk about what runners rarely see behind the scenes, why volunteers are an RD's most important resource, and why reading the pre-race instructions really does matter.

They also dig into Steve's long friendship with Laz, his six attempts at the Barkley Marathons, the creation of the Barkley Fall Classic, and what makes that course so brutally difficult.

Then there's Tunnel Hill. Steve intentionally designed it as the opposite of the "hardest race" trend. A fast, accessible course where runners could see what they were capable of over 50 or 100 miles. The result became a destination for first-timers and record chasers alike, with multiple world records set on the course.

Through all the races and records, Steve keeps coming back to the people - the runners, volunteers, friendships, and memories that have made the sport such a big part of his life.

Chapters

• 00:00 – Meet Steve Durbin
• 01:35 – Starting Land Between the Lakes4
• 05:45 – Building races people come back to
• 08:45 – Steve's own running story
• 15:35 – Twenty years of race directing
• 22:35 – What runners don't see behind the scenes
• 26:45 – Barkley Fall Classic and working with Laz
• 41:20 – Steve's own Barkley experiences
• 44:40 – Why Tunnel Hill was built to be fast
• 48:20 – The people and adventures ultrarunning brought into Steve's life

Neal Palles knows the mental side of endurance sport from a few different angles. He's an ultrarunning coach, licensed clinical social worker, Certified Mental Performance Consultant, longtime runner, and former Outward Bound instructor. neal-palles

In this conversation, Scott and Neal dig into what mental performance actually looks like for ultrarunners especially when the race stops going according to plan.

They talk about learning through failure, why outcome goals can sometimes get in the way of execution, staying present when you're deep into an ultra, and how to recognize when your thoughts are starting to push you around.

Neal also gets into imposter phenomenon, comparison on social media, and the idea that you don't necessarily need to eliminate negative thoughts. Instead, you can learn to notice them, create some space from them, and get back to the next thing you can control. neal-palles

And yes, they also settle an important ultra question: Coke or Tailwind at mile 80.

Chapters

• 00:00 – Meet Neal Palles
• 02:00 – From Outward Bound to ultrarunning
• 10:00 – Learning through failure
• 13:00 – What mental performance actually means
• 20:30 – When fitness and race execution don't match
• 25:20 – Be present, open up and do what matters
• 30:45 – Imposter phenomenon in ultrarunning
• 32:45 – What to do when your brain tells you to quit
• 34:40 – Social media and comparison
• 37:00 – Quick hitters and favorite races

Connect with Neal

Instagram: @the.trail.mindset and @nealpalles Website: thetrailmindset.com Coaching: trainright.com/coaches/neal-palles

Upcoming project

Neal will be offering a Four Session Program called Mental Skills for Ultra in the fall or early winter.

Tim Gorichanaz didn't grow up athletic. His path into running started with a family 5K, moved quickly into marathons, and eventually led to ultrarunning and a nearly decade-long pursuit of Western States.

In this conversation, Scott and Tim talk about that journey - from Tim's first 50K in a Wisconsin blizzard to finally earning his spot at Western States, only to spend months injured during the build-up.

Tim shares what it was like to fight cutoffs all day, finish Western States in the Golden Hour, and experience the emotional intensity of finally reaching a goal he'd been chasing for years.

They also dig into something that doesn't get talked about nearly enough, post-race blues. Tim explains why finishing a huge goal can feel like losing an entire world you built your life around and why simply signing up for another race may not be the answer.

Along the way they talk nutrition, minimalist running, longevity in the sport, Tim's recent 130-mile Ring of Fire finish in Wales, and his upcoming ultra-running novel.

Chapters

• 00:00 – Meet Tim Gorichanaz
• 04:40 – From couch potato to ultrarunner
• 09:20 – Nutrition, recovery and minimalist running
• 22:40 – The long road to Western States
• 28:15 – Finishing in the Golden Hour
• 31:55 – Post-race blues and what comes next
• 39:10 – Ring of Fire: 130 miles around Anglesey
• 45:30 – Writing The Pennsylvania Death Race

Connect with Tim

Instagram: @timgorichanaz

Website: timgorichanaz.com

Blake Nations used to joke that he'd only run if it was raining and he needed to get to his car. A couple of years later, he's finished his first ultra and is training for the Never Summer 100K.

In this conversation, Scott and Blake explore the crossover between ultrarunning, backcountry hunting, and learning how to stay in the fight when things get uncomfortable.

Blake shares how moving to Colorado and getting humbled in the mountains changed the way he thought about fitness, why running became a tool for becoming a better hunter, and how gradually pushing his distance helped him redefine what "far" meant.

They also talk about Blake's first 50K, the fueling mistake that turned his final miles into a GI survival exercise, preparing for the jump to 100K, balancing big endurance goals with hunting season, and why some of the most valuable lessons happen long before the finish line.

At the heart of the conversation is a simple idea - sometimes the real win is learning not to negotiate with the voice telling you to quit.

Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Blake Nations and His Journey 02:01 Blake's Unconventional Childhood and Military Experience 04:58 Transitioning to Colorado and the Love for Hunting 07:23 The Intersection of Endurance Running and Hunting 10:15 Mental Toughness in Ultra Running and Hunting 13:07 Blake's Ultra Running Journey and Challenges 16:46 Preparing for the Never Summer Ultra 20:28 Balancing Training and Recovery for Hunting and Racing 21:49 Understanding the Journey of Running 27:49 Lessons from Ultra Running and Fueling Strategies 36:09 The Importance of Community in Endurance Sports

Connect with Blake

Instagram: Blake Nations Nations Prime Ranch: Nations Prime Ranch

Hardrock 100 puts just 146 runners into one of the most remote and demanding mountain races in ultrarunning. Supporting them requires approximately 650 volunteers, specialized safety sweepers, hike-in aid stations, four-wheel-drive transportation and nearly a full year of planning.

Bill Schum, Hardrock's volunteer coordinator and an aid-station captain, takes Scott behind the scenes of the legendary 100-mile race through Colorado's San Juan Mountains.

Bill explains how volunteers support runners across a 48-hour event with roughly 33,000 feet of climbing. Some carry supplies into remote aid stations. Others spend two nights in the mountains, clear the course, manage traffic, provide medical support, or follow the final runners across passes above 13,000 feet.

He also shares some unforgettable moments from the course: volunteers searching for a missing pacer, a runner receiving the shoelace directly from a volunteer's shoe, a surprise bear at an aid station, and the wildfire smoke that kept Bill awake for 64 consecutive hours.

Along the way, Bill reveals what the back of the pack experiences at Hardrock, how technology has changed remote aid-station operations, and why every runner should expect the race to be harder and much slower than imagined.

Chapters

• 00:00 Introduction to Bill Schum and the Hard Rock 100
• 01:05 Bill's background and how he got involved in ultramarathons
• 02:13 Overview of the Hard Rock 100 race
• 03:43 Starting race planning and volunteer recruitment
• 05:14 Details of aid station setup and logistics
• 07:59 Managing remote aid stations and safety sweepers
• 14:07 Memorable wildlife encounters during the race
• 19:17 The most rewarding parts of the race experience
• 21:49 Impact of technology on race management
• 24:26 Race week sleep schedule and challenges
• 27:10 Advice for future Hard Rock runners
• 28:46 Closing thoughts and encouragement to spectate or volunteer

Learn more about Hardrock 100

Official Hardrock 100 website: https://hardrock100.com/

Hardrock volunteer information: https://hardrock100.com/hardrock-volunteers.php

Course description and safety information: https://hardrock100.com/hardrock-course.php

Finishing last isn't the same as failing. Ultrarunner and race director Mandy Hansel shares what her DFL finishes have taught her about courage, cutoffs, and creating races where every participant feels welcome.

At the back of the pack, the aid stations may be picked over, the course markers may be coming down, and long stretches of the race may be spent entirely alone. Mandy has experienced all of it, from having a sweeper push her out of an aid station to being cut halfway through a race she had trained hard to finish.

Those experiences helped shape the kind of race director she wanted to become. Mandy, co-founder of Storm Sporting Events, joins Scott to talk about the mental strength required at the back of the pack, the fear of finishing last, and why a DFL finisher can deserve the same celebration as the person who came in first.

They also explore fixed-time events as an approachable way to take on something big, what race directors can do to create a more inclusive experience, and how Storm Sporting Events uses its races to support youth mental health in southeastern Minnesota.

Chapters

• (00:00) Meet Mandy Hansel and the meaning of DFL
• (01:51) From road running to Mandy's first ultra
• (04:24) How Storm Sporting Events began
• (06:52) What finishing DFL taught Mandy
• (08:12) Race cutoffs and choosing the right event
• (10:12) Keeping the finish line up for every runner
• (12:37) What runners experience at the back of the pack
• (14:45) Chasing cutoffs and dealing with imposter syndrome
• (15:59) The fear of finishing last
• (16:29) Why Storm gives an award to its DFL finisher
• (19:35) Storm the Day and the appeal of fixed-time events
• (22:01) Turning race registrations into support for youth mental health
• (24:23) Mandy's encouragement to runners who are afraid to try

Connect with Mandy

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/girl_out_doing_what_she_loves/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mandyl.hansel/

The Storm Trail Race Series

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thestormtrs/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thestormtrailraceseries/

Storm Sporting Events

Website: https://www.stormsportingevents.org/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stormsportingevents/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/StormSportingEvents/

How fast should you actually be moving at mile 20, 50 or 80 of an ultra?

Danny Murphy is an ultrarunner, engineer and the founder of UltraPacer, a race-planning tool designed to account for the things that make trail racing complicated including elevation, terrain, altitude, heat, fatigue and even darkness.

Scott and Danny talk about how UltraPacer started as a spreadsheet Danny built while preparing for his first 100K, why evenly pacing an ultramarathon usually isn't realistic, and how runners can use pacing data without becoming completely tied to a spreadsheet on race day.

They also dig into race-day strategy, setting realistic goals, using training runs to test a race plan, and why a good pacing plan may be just as useful for your crew as it is for you.

Chapters

• 00:00 – Meet Danny Murphy and the story behind UltraPacer
• 02:00 – Modeling elevation, terrain, heat, altitude and fatigue
• 05:00 – How the pacing models were built
• 07:45 – Why ultrarunners slow down
• 09:30 – Elite pacing vs. everyday runners
• 10:20 – Using your training to set realistic race goals
• 13:00 – When a pacing plan is too aggressive
• 15:30 – How to actually use a pacing plan on race day
• 17:00 – How UltraPacer helps crews
• 18:15 – When to adjust your race-day goal
• 22:15 – Building and improving UltraPacer
• 25:00 – What's coming next
• 27:00 – How first-time ultrarunners can use UltraPacer
• 30:45 – UltraPacer tools for coaches
• 32:15 – Ultra chores?
• 33:00 – Where to find UltraPacer

Connect with UltraPacer

Website: https://ultrapacer.com Instagram: @ultrapacer Facebook: ultrapacer

About UltraPacer

UltraPacer helps runners create race plans based on the actual demands of a course rather than relying on one average pace. Runners can account for variables including grade, terrain, altitude, heat, fatigue and darkness, then use those estimates to better understand what race day may look like.

The majority of UltraPacer's features are available for free, and runners can use existing courses or upload their own GPX file to start building a plan.

Dr. Mandy Riehl is a chiropractor, former Division I runner, trail and ultrarunner, and high school cross-country coach who works extensively with endurance athletes.

In this episode, Scott and Mandy talk about building runners for the long haul from how we develop young athletes to how adult runners can better handle injuries, strength training, and the inevitable aches and pains that come with the sport. They dig into common running injuries, why pain isn't always coming from where you think it is, and why heavy, simple strength training can be one of the best tools for staying healthy.

Chapters

00:00 – Meet Dr. Mandy Riehl 07:20 – From soccer to Division I running 13:40 – The college athlete experience 16:30 – Building an identity outside of sport 21:00 – How much should young runners be running? 24:00 – Developing runners for the long haul 29:00 – Mandy's work with trail and ultra runners 31:45 – Common running injuries 34:20 – Is it really IT band syndrome? 37:45 – Strength training for injury prevention 39:20 – Hip mobility and running mechanics 42:20 – The simple strength routine runners need 44:20 – Building a trusted injury and rehab team 47:10 – What we'll tackle next time

Connect with Mandy

P2 Sports Care: https://p2sportscare.com

Ultrarunner and Down with Running founder Matt Lamos shares how his daughter Lilly inspired a mission to help individuals with special needs pursue meaningful physical goals one step, one challenge and one "I did it" at a time.

In this episode, we talk about

• Matt's path from soccer and casual fitness to ultrarunning

• The surprisingly hilly side of trail running in Iowa

• Lilly's birth and the family's first 40 days in the hospital

• How Down syndrome can affect muscle tone, development and milestones

• Lilly's progression from using a walker to running down the aisle at Matt's wedding

• Why the words "I can't" and "I don't want to" are not interchangeable

• Rethinking the language we use when talking about a "healthy" child

• Matt's honest first emotions after learning that Lilly had Down syndrome

• Why Lilly's siblings treat her like their sister—not someone who needs different expectations

• The mission behind Down with Running and its focus on instructional encouragement

• Why meaningful physical goals can range from walking a mile to running an ultramarathon

• Creating access to shoes, race entries, programs and one-on-one support

• The Cedar Bend Endurance Run and using local races to fund the mission

• Matt's long-term vision for Lilly and Down with Running

• Why lasting change often starts close to home

Chapters

(00:00) Meet Matt Lamos and Down with Running

(02:57) From soccer to ultrarunning

(05:20) Lilly's story and understanding Down syndrome

(10:34) From using a walker to running down the aisle

(12:23) "I did it" and the difference between "can't" and "don't want to"

(14:19) Rethinking health and Matt's first emotions as Lilly's dad

(21:59) Raising Lilly alongside her siblings

(24:51) The mission behind Down with Running

(26:56) Why every physical goal deserves support

(30:58) Early wins, current hurdles and the Cedar Bend Endurance Run

(33:42) Matt's 15-year vision for Lilly and Down with Running

(37:22) Making a difference close to home

Resources mentioned

• Down with Running

• Matt and Lilly's story

• Cedar Bend Endurance Run — September 5, 2026, in Waverly, Iowa

Connect with Matt and Down with Running

• Down with Running on Instagram

• Matt Lamos on Instagram

• Down with Running on Facebook

Many endurance athletes spend plenty of time thinking about what to eat during a race but far less time considering whether they're eating enough to support their training every day.

In this episode, Scott talks with Minnesota-based registered dietitian and endurance athlete Alex Larson about practical fueling strategies for better energy, recovery and performance. Alex explains why fueling is both a science and an art, how to recognize the less-obvious signs of underfueling and why the habits that make the biggest difference are often the simplest ones.

In this episode:

• Why race-day nutrition begins with how you eat throughout training

• How to fuel before, during and after a three-hour long run

• Why Alex encourages athletes to begin fueling early instead of waiting until they feel depleted

• How to gradually increase carbohydrate intake while building gut tolerance

• An easy way to calculate your sweat rate at home

• Why feeling exhausted for the rest of the day after a long run may be a fueling problem

• The importance of carbohydrates and protein after running and strength training

• How athletes can pursue body-composition goals without dieting during their workouts

• Common signs that an athlete may not be eating enough—even when they believe they eat "clean"

• Why many high-volume athletes fall short on both carbohydrates and protein

• Nutrition priorities for aging athletes, including protein, creatine, strength and bone health

• The surprisingly powerful habit Alex wishes more athletes would adopt

• Why Coke beats an IPA immediately after an ultramarathon

• Alex's biggest nutrition-industry pet peeves

The takeaway is refreshingly simple: fuel your workouts, prioritize recovery, eat a bigger breakfast and give small, consistent changes time to work.

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(00:00) Introduction to Nutrition and Endurance Sports

(06:02) The Importance of Daily Nutrition for Athletes

(12:16) Fueling Strategies for Long Runs

(18:28) Understanding Sweat Rate and Hydration

(23:10) Balancing Weight Loss and Performance

(24:52) Strategies for Sustainable Weight Loss

(26:29) Signs of Underfueling in Athletes

(29:03) Nutritional Shortcomings in Endurance Athletes

(30:16) Nutrition for Aging Athletes

(32:21) The Power of Breakfast

(34:22) Recovery Nutrition Choices

(36:16) Pet Peeves in Nutrition Advice

Learn more about Alex Larson

• Alex Larson Nutrition

• Endurance Eats Podcast

• Alex's Substack

• Instagram

• Carb Culture Merch

• Free Carb-Loading Guide

• Sweat-Rate Calculator