Behavioral Grooves Podcast

Learning ALL the parts of our country’s history can be very uncomfortable. Not just in the US, but around the world, there are usually very dark parts of our past that many of us would rather brush over because it doesn’t marry up with the sterilized version of what we were taught when we were younger.

While many of us are willing to take the next step, to unlearn our history and dismantle the unjust systems that our forebears built, few of us actually know how to go about it effectively. Our wonderful guest on this episode, Dolly Chugh admits to her own story of how she inadvertently taught her kids a polished version of history. And in her own personal reckoning around this experience, wrote the book that she found herself needing to read. And we are delighted to be talking with her about “A More Just Future: Psychological Tools for Reckoning with Our Past and Driving Social Change” because it is now a valuable tool for all of us.

Dolly Chugh is a Harvard educated, award-winning social psychologist at the NYU Stern School of Business, where she is an expert researcher in the psychology of good people. We’ve previously had Dolly on the show but we are thrilled to welcome her back to discuss her brand new book.

(2:07) How Little House On The Prairie led Dolly to write A More Just Future.

(9:24) Behavioral History - the new way of looking at the past?

(11:10) Why do we find it so difficult to talk about the dark parts of our history?

(14:08) How “dressing for the weather” can help us deal with our emotional responses.

(17:56) What other countries can teach the US about our response to history..

(19:37) How a Paradox Mindset can help us sit with uncomfortable truths.

(23:28) How does Dolly feel about America after writing the book?

(26:12) How do we move forward to a more just future?

(29:28) Unlearning our past is simple but not easy.

(31:49) Why is George Takei a gritty patriot?

(37:51) What is belief grief?

(39:42) How psychological distance creates a “long time ago illusion”.

(41:37) Using music to anchor us in time.

(44:52) What question Dolly would ask Max Bazerman? 

(47:54) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt discussing A More Just Future.

If you are a regular listener to Behavioral Grooves, please consider donating to our work through Patreon. Writing a review of the podcast is also a great way to share your appreciation with other listeners. 

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Dolly’s book “A More Just Future: Psychological Tools for Reckoning with Our Past and Driving Social Change “: https://amzn.to/3Cgs9eq

Episode 230, How Good People Fight Bias with Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-good-people-fight-bias/ 

Dolly’s TED Talk: “How to let go of being a "good" person — and become a better person”: https://www.ted.com/talks/dolly_chugh_how_to_let_go_of_being_a_good_person_and_become_a_better_person?language=en

Episode 280, Do We Judge Others By The Way They Speak? | Katherine Kinzler PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/judging-by-the-way-others-speak/ 

Historiography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography

Dan Gilbert “Stumbling on Happiness”: https://amzn.to/3zdV4iD 

Episode 321, Robert Livingston: How To Have A Conversation About Racism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/a-conversation-about-racism/

Angela Duckworth “Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance”: https://amzn.to/3suuRZh 

“Construal-Level Theory of Psychological Distance” Yaacov Trope and Nira Liberman (2011): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3152826/ 

Max Bazerman “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”: https://amzn.to/3TSE7lB 

Episode 232: Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Bob Marley “Buffalo Soldier”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5FCdx7Dn0o 

Hamilton “Alexander Hamilton”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhinPd5RRJw 

In the Heights “No Me Diga”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrFH772ytzM 

Louis Armstrong “Hello Dolly”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7N2wssse14 

People don’t hate change, they hate the ambiguity that comes with change. Organizational psychologist, Dr Debbie Sutherland PhD, shares the tools we can use, both in business settings and in our personal lives, to overcome our discomfort with ambiguity and to thrive in uncertain environments. 

Debbie is an academic executive coach with both a masters degree and doctorate degree from Columbia University. She has recently written a well researched book, The Business of Ambiguity: Demystify the Unknown with Five Key Thinking and Behavior Strategies, which gives business leaders a blueprint for making better decisions in ambiguous situations. After all, ambiguous and uncertain situations aren’t going away, so we might as well figure out how to deal with them!

Thank you to all our listeners of Behavioral Grooves, we enjoy sharing unique insights with you. If you have enjoyed this episode, please consider writing a review on your podcast player. Or you can contribute financially to our work through our Patreon page.

(2:31) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:35) Why do people hate ambiguity?

(9:40) How frustration led to Debbie’s research on ambiguity?

(11:25) The value of critical reflection.

(16:11) How journaling can help you find patterns in behavior.

(21:09) Mental models of ambiguity.

(23:02) Reflection IN action vs. reflection ON action.

(25:44) The ambiguity of THE dress.

(29:18) The Ambiguity Mindset – intuitive or learned?

(30:26) Where do leaders make mistakes with managing ambiguity? 

(38:25) What music would Debbie take to a desert island?

(43:04) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on ambiguity.

Debbie Sutherland’s book “The Business of Ambiguity: Demystify the Unknown with Five Key Thinking and Behavior Strategies”: https://amzn.to/3MFuh3W 

The Business of Ambiguity: https://www.behaviorsinbusiness.com/ 

Groups Relations Conferences: https://www.tc.columbia.edu/organization-and-leadership/social-organizational-psychology/degree-info/group-relations-conferences/ 

Gestalt Psychology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology 

Dr Pamela Booth research on Behavior Analysis: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Behaviour-Analysis%3A-Catalyst-for-Perspective-and-of-Booth/d90d2da66a769d574e99a5dcf6f5ced41a689ee1 

David Schon, The Reflective Practitioner: https://graysreadinggroup.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/the-reflective-practitioner-by-donald-schon/ 

Episode 178, Kwame Christian: On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Episode 323, Quit: Why We Do It Too Late and How To Get Better At It with Annie Duke: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/quit-with-annie-duke/ 

Episode 322, Chuck Wisner: Four Steps To More Effective Conversations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/more-effective-conversations/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Eminem “Fall”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfTbHITdhEI 

Vivaldi “Four Seasons”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRxofEmo3HA

Walking away is never easy. Whether it’s quitting a job, a relationship or an expedition to the peak of Mount Everest, we have a real problem with knowing when to stop. And ironically, when we do quit, we often wish we’d done it earlier. So why do we find it so difficult to quit? Annie Duke addresses the psychological reasons that prevent us from quitting, and how we can overcome them. 

Annie needs little introduction to the Behavioral Grooves Podcast as she is now the only guest to have been on the show 4 times! Most people know of her as a poker champion and bestselling author but we are lucky enough to call her a friend. One of the reasons we are so fond of Annie is her ability to use relatable stories to explain the complex concepts around decision making. She has emerged as one of the leading thinkers in the field, and is truly an intellectual powerhouse. So we are thrilled to be talking to Annie about her excellent new book, “Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away”.

We don't like ambiguity. We don't like uncertainty. We keep chugging along, trying to accrue more certainty. So that we know that it's the right decision....As Richard Thaler, Nobel laureate said to me; “the only time that we were really willing to quit is when it's not a decision anymore.”

~ Annie Duke, Episode 323

In this episode, Annie touches on key themes around quitting. We talk about the reasons we find quitting so difficult, why mantras like “quit while you’re ahead” are complete bunkum, and what techniques we can use to ensure we quit at the right time. Annie also sets the record straight on the myth that grit and quitting are opposite sides of the same coin. The concepts actually overlap.

We hope you enjoy this episode (and didn’t quit!). To help others find our podcast content, we would be grateful if you would write us a quick review on your podcast player. It helps us get noticed by other folk who are interested in podcasts about behavioral science. Thank you, and we appreciate your help.

(5:36) Annie’s story of quitting and her personal frustration.

(12:39) Grit and quit are NOT polar opposites.

(22:53) What are some of the psychological aspects that make quitting hard?

(36:31) What is the difference between loss aversion and sure loss aversion?

(42:29) Why we shouldn’t quit while we’re ahead.

(49:10) Gut feel vs rational decisions.

(53:29) What Mount Everest can teach us about when to quit.

(1:03:36) The second way to help you quit – a quitting coach.

(1:10:44) The backstory of Barry Staw.

(1:20:40) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt about quitting.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

“Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away”: https://amzn.to/3z47JEP 

“Thinking in Bets: Making Smarter Decisions When You Don't Have All the Facts”: https://amzn.to/3Vvaick 

Angela Duckworth book, “Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance”: https://amzn.to/3ECSLsS 

Episode 107, Rory Sutherland: The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/rory-sutherland-the-opposite-of-a-good-idea-is-a-good-idea/ 

Maya Shankar: A Slight Change Of Plans Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-slight-change-of-plans/id1561860622 

Episode 310, Why You Can’t Find a Cab When It’s Raining – Groove Track: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-you-cant-find-cabs-in-the-rain/ 

Barry Staw: https://haas.berkeley.edu/faculty/staw-barry/ 

Episode 277, No Regrets? Really? Why Regrets Actually Bring Us Hope | Daniel H. Pink: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-regrets-bring-us-hope/ 

Episode 171, Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For with Roy Baumeister: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/ 

Conversations are vital to our existence - after all, we talk with people every day. But have you ever dissected what makes a conversation effective? When we are more conscious of how we are talking with others, we can nurture more productive connections, and avoid common pitfalls that often derail our conversations.

In this episode, we explore the importance of conscious conversations, with author Chuck Wisner, whose new book The Art Of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact is coming out in mid October 2022. Chuck’s insights are built on a fascinating mix of careers: from architect to personal coach, with a stop-off as a mediator at the Harvard Law Mediation Program. 

With Chuck, we discuss the four sequential stages to an effective conversation: 

• Storytelling

We explore the role our identity plays in shaping the stories we tell ourselves, why leaders’ authority can make their voice louder, and how some of our best ideas happen when we are stimulating our creative minds.

“The stories we live by and tell ourselves and others are essential to our identity.” ~ Chuck Wisner

If you enjoy listening to Behavioral Grooves Podcast, please consider donating to our work through our Patreon page. We use all the donations to fund the production of the podcast. Thanks!

(2:31) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:35) The stories we tell ourselves are central to our identity.

(5:34) The Art of Conscious Conversation Book.

(10:14) The first of the four types of conversations: storytelling.

(18:56) Collaboration, the second step of successful conversations.

(22:38) How re-engaging with our creative minds assists our conversations.

(28:56) Why commitment is the active part of a conversation.

(38:06) How music is part of Chuck’s life.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

The Art of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact: https://amzn.to/3clNtGk  

Episode 178: Kwame Christian On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

Joe Morello “Take 5 Drum Solo”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tTyTc6FjjU  

Delbert McClinton “Ain’t That Lovin’ You”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCN2og2kKdk  

Racism is solvable, but that doesn’t mean we will solve it. To close the gap between the probable and possible, we need to have meaningful conversations.

“Conversation is one of the most powerful ways to build knowledge, awareness, and empathy and ultimately, impact change.”

In his award winning book, “The Conversation: How Seeking and Speaking the Truth About Racism Can Radically Transform Individuals and Organizations”, Dr Robert Livingston PhD provides a compass and a roadmap for individuals and for organizational leaders to solve racism. As a leading Harvard social psychologist, he expertly combines his research and narrative for an audience who is eager to be part of the solution.

Robert talks with us about the lightbulb moment he realized storytelling was a powerful way to engage an audience. By building relationships and using narratives, you can change people’s behavior in a way that facts and graphs simply don’t.

Our conversation with Robert gives us the tools to firstly define racism and recognize its existence. We learn why motivated reasoning tries to protect us from the threat of addressing our own racism. But if we approach the painful conversations with a growth mindset, we can allow ourselves the grace to learn.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

(3:13) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:23) Is racism a solvable problem?

(6:19) Why conversation is so crucial to overcoming racism.

(13:18) How The Press Model can help solve racism.

(19:47) Why are people in denial about racism?

(25:12) How to challenge the “I’m not a racist” relative?

(28:48) How to have a conversation about racism, rather than a debate. 

(36:20) Why do we confuse equity and equality?

(45:03) People are not as concerned about fairness as they are about winning.

(47:52) What music would Robert take to a desert island?

Robert Livingston's book “The Conversation: How Seeking and Speaking the Truth About Racism Can Radically Transform Individuals and Organizations”: https://amzn.to/3DdQZOc

Episode 232, Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/ 

“Whites See Racism as a Zero-Sum Game That They Are Now Losing” Michael Norton and Samuel Sommers (2011): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691611406922 

Carol Dweck “Mindset: The New Psychology of Success”: https://amzn.to/3SBhamm 

Amy Edmondson: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=6451 

Episode 178, Kwame Christian: On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Episode 230, How Good People Fight Bias with Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-good-people-fight-bias/ 

Stevie Wonder “Songs In The Key of Life”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiG9eiwUpHo 

Miles Davis “So What”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqNTltOGh5c

Close your eyes and visualize a horse. Most people can picture the outline of the body, the color of the horse and the unique features of the animal. But some people simply don’t see any image at all. This lack of a mind’s eye is known as aphantasia. 

To help explain exactly what aphantasia is, and how it can affect behavior, we talk with Professor Adam Zeman who actually helped identify and name the neurological condition. Adam has a medical degree and a PhD in philosophy from Oxford University. He’s been a lecturer and professor of cognitive and behavioral neurology and has published extensively on visual imagery and forms of amnesia occurring in epilepsy. Adam has also published an introduction to neurology for the general audiences called, A Portrait of the Brain. But the reason we are talking to Adam on this episode is about his research on our “minds eye”. He discusses how a lack of visual imagery (aphantasia) or overly vivid imagery (hyperphantasia) can be identified and what effects it has on our behavior. 

We often ask guests on the show about whether their work is influenced by “me-search”; something of particular interest to them personally. Well, this episode is a little bit of me-search for our own Kurt Nelson who himself has aphantasia. Join both Kurt and Tim as they both find out more about the recent research into the condition and how we should all be aware of how it affects people.

Thank you to all our listeners of Behavioral Grooves, we enjoy sharing unique insights with you. If you have enjoyed this episode, please consider writing a review on your podcast player. Or you can contribute financially to our work through our Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves. 

(3:36) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:15) How Adam discovered the condition aphantasia.

(10:30) How aphantasia can affect all the senses.

(12:45) The prevalence of aphantasia.

(15:38) The behavioral differences that are present with aphantasia.

(19:42) What careers suit people with a lack of mind’s eye?

(23:39) What causes aphantasia? 

(25:51) The differences between voluntary and involuntary visualization. 

(30:41) Visualization is an echo of vision. 

(35:21) What music Adam will take to a desert island.

(37:51) About The Mind’s Eye Project.

(42:49) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Aphantasia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia 

Vividness of Visual Imagery Questionnaire (VVIQ): https://aphantasia.com/vviq/ 

Professor Adam Zeman: https://psychology.exeter.ac.uk/staff/profile/index.php?web_id=adam_zeman 

The Mind’s Eye Project: https://www.gla.ac.uk/research/az/cspe/projects/the-eyes-mind/ 

“Picture This? Some Just Can’t” by Carl Zimmer, 2015: https://carlzimmer.com/picture-this-some-just-cant-101/ 

Prosopagnosia: https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/prosopagnosia#:~:text=Prosopagnosia%20is%20a%20neurological%20disorder,face%20blindness%20or%20facial%20agnosia.  

Hyperphantasia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperphantasia#:~:text=Hyperphantasia%20is%20the%20condition%20of,as%20vivid%20as%20real%20seeing%22. 

Ed Catmull: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Catmull 

Craig Venter: https://www.jcvi.org/about/j-craig-venter 

Blake Ross: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake_Ross 

Think of a horse: https://aphantasia.com/think-of-a-horse/ 

David Gray “Sail Away”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oyBnvibWEY 

Bach “Cello Suite No.1 in G Major”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1prweT95Mo0 

Mendelssohn “Overture: The Hebrides”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdQyN7MYSN8 

“The primary source of unconscious priming…is your conscious experience.” Our consciousness is where we bring everything together, where we integrate and form a rich integration of our experience. This result is that this experience gets spread out to all the processes of the mind which is pivotal to how priming, an unconscious effect, actually works.

Dr John Bargh PhD is a researcher and professor at Yale University and is probably the leading researcher on behavioral priming and has been studying this topic for almost 40 years. Not only that but he is a long term friend of Behavioral Grooves Podcast.

In this episode with John, we explore with him both the past and future of priming as well as some of the controversies surrounding it. 

“The more important the goal, the more primable it is”

(4:36) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:50) Why priming gets a bad rap.

(13:01) What exactly is a prime?

(16:17) Where does future research in priming need to go?

(19:46) How does priming differ from expectation theory and the placebo effect?

(22:33) How is framing not priming?

(24:07) What is the summation of experience?

(32:02) The stupid reason John went into social psychology.

(40:51) What the meta analysis studies on priming have found.

(45:50) Science communication: how to tell the good science from the bad.

(49:03) The importance of podcasting to bridge the gap between science and people.

(1:00:03) Grooving session with Tim and Kurt on priming. 

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

John Bargh's book “Before You Know It: The Unconscious Reasons We Do What We Do”: https://amzn.to/3yUHka8

Episode 248, Do We Control Situations or Do Situations Control Us? With John Bargh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/control-situations-with-john-bargh/ 

Episode 155, John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-unconscious-mind/ 

Global Workspace Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_workspace_theory 

Bargh JA. “What have we been priming all these years? On the development, mechanisms, and ecology of nonconscious social behavior.” Eur J Soc Psychol. 2006: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19844598/ 

Shinobu Kitayama, University of Michigan: https://lsa.umich.edu/psych/people/faculty/kitayama.html 

Daphna Oyserman, University of Southern California: https://dornsife.usc.edu/daphna-oyserman 

Paul J. Reber, Northwestern University: https://www.reberlab.psych.northwestern.edu/people/paul/ 

Daniel Schacter, “Amnesia observed: Remembering and forgetting in a natural environment” (1983): https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1983-26025-001 

Parafoveal Processing: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/parafoveal-processing 

Jeffrey W. Sherman (2017) “A Final Word on Train Wrecks”: https://psychology.ucdavis.edu/people/sherm/cv 

Evan Weingarten, Qijia Chen, Maxwell McAdams, Jessica Yi, Justin Hepler, Dolores Albarracin (2016) “On Priming Action: Conclusions from a Meta-Analysis of the Behavioral Effects of Incidentally-Presented Words”: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27957520/ 

Xiao Chen, Gary P. Latham, Ronald F. Piccolo, Guy Itzchakov (2019) “An Enumerative Review and a Meta-Analysis of Primed Goal Effects on Organizational Behavior”: https://iaap-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/apps.12239 

Roy F. Baumeister and Kathleen D. Vohs (2003): “Sobriety Epidemic Endangers Nation’s Well-Being”: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/sobriety-epidemic-endangers-nations-well-being 

Episode 147, Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-goal-setting-prompts/  

AC/DC “Hells Bells”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etAIpkdhU9Q 

Psychedelic Porn Crumpets “Acid Dent”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuQyIQ0NA0k 

Acid Dad “Searchin’”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzSwzUAqVWw 

The Orb “Blue Room”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ8nTbS9mOE 

Nirvana “Smells Like Teen Spirit”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTWKbfoikeg 

Pearl Jam “Black”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgaRVvAKoqQ 

The Who “Who You Are”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNbBDrceCy8 

Led Zeppelin “All My Love”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXC87EABywo 

Dead Pirates “Alexis”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9FsgAyZop4 

Hadestown Broadway Show “Way Down Hadestown”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJIc3RtJK7U 

Rory Sutherland is a British advertising executive who became fascinated with behavioral science. Between his TED talks, books and articles, he has become one of the field’s greatest proponents. Rory is currently the Executive Creative Director of OgilvyOne, after gigs as vice-chairman of Ogilvy Group UK and co-founder of the Behavioural Sciences Practice, part of the Ogilvy & Mather group of companies. He is the author of The Spectator’s The Wiki Man column and his most recent book, which we highly recommend, is Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life.

Our discussion with Rory was original published in January 2020, but Rory’s evergreen insights continue to be popular with our listeners so we decided to republish this episode. You can also listen to Rory discuss his latest book Transport for Humans: Are We Nearly There Yet? alongside his co-writer Pete Dyson, in episode 290.

We start this discussion with Rory by asking him about his book and some of his insights from it. His approach to advertising, marketing and product design is informed by his ability to look for the things that aren’t there. He once described a solution to improving customer satisfaction on the Chunnel Train between London and Paris by suggesting that a billion dollars would be better spent on supermodel hosts in the cars than on reducing ride time by 15 minutes. He’s a terrifically insightful thinker.

Our conversation ran amok down all sorts of rabbit holes, as expected, including ergodicity, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s “The Silver Blaze,” high-end audio and the dietary habits of the world-famous runner, Usain Bolt.

In Kurt and Tim’s Grooving Session, we discuss some of our favorite takeaways from Rory’s conversation including, “The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea” and others. And finally, Kurt teed up the Bonus Track with a final reflection and recap of the key points we discussed.

As always, we would be grateful if you would write us a quick review. It helps us get noticed by other folks who are interested in podcasts about behavioral science. It will only take 27 seconds. Thank you, and we appreciate your help.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Rory Sutherland: https://ogilvy.co.uk/people/rorys

“Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life”: https://amzn.to/3xbibt3

“Transport for Humans: Are We Nearly There Yet?”: https://amzn.to/3cZPyIy

Episode 290, Transport Your Thinking; Why We Need To Reframe Travel | Rory Sutherland & Pete Dyson: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/transport-rory-sutherland-pete-dyson/

“Friction”: https://www.rogerdooley.com/books/friction/

Murray Gell-Mann, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-Mann

Robin Williams “Scottish Golf”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx8TzR1-n4Q

Don Draper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Draper

Ergodicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodicity

John James Cowperthwaite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_James_Cowperthwaite

SatNav: https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/satnav

Daniel Kahneman, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman

What You See is All There Is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

Arthur Conan-Doyle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Conan_Doyle

Sherlock Holmes “Silver Blaze”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_Silver_Blaze

Tim Houlihan’s Blog on “Silver Blaze”: https://tinyurl.com/ufumkj6

Ben Franklin T-Test: https://tinyurl.com/wocdsdk

Volkswagen Fighter: https://tinyurl.com/qpyqh87

David Ogilvy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ogilvy_(businessman)

Jock Elliot: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/dec/01/guardianobituaries.media

Battle of Leyte Gulf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leyte_Gulf

Croft Audio: http://www.croftacoustics.co.uk/main.html

Mu-So single speaker: https://www.naimaudio.com/mu-so

WFMT Chicago: https://www.wfmt.com/

TK Maxx: https://www.tkmaxx.com/uk/en/

Berlin Hotel with Big Lebowski: https://www.michelbergerhotel.com/en/

Shure: https://www.shure.com/en-US/products/microphones?lpf[top][types][]=microphones

Zoom: https://zoom.us/

Satisficing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing

Usain Bolt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usain_Bolt

Sheena Iyengar, PhD: https://www.sheenaiyengar.com/

Jelly Jar Study: https://tinyurl.com/oo6g6eb

Big Band Music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_band

Aretha Franklin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aretha_Franklin

Southern California Community Choir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_California_Community_Choir

Abba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABBA

Felix Mendelssohn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Mendelssohn

George Frideric Handel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Frideric_Handel

Johann Sebastian Bach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Sebastian_Bach

Johann Christian Bach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christian_Bach

Psychology and neuroscience have proven that our minds do things on autopilot. These shortcuts (or heuristics) are laden with unconscious biases, which are juxtaposed to our self identity as a “good” person; one that isn’t racist, sexist or homophobic. Dolly Chugh believes we should set a higher standard for ourselves by being good-ish people. By implementing a Growth Mindset, a concept pioneered by Carol Dweck, we don’t hang on too tightly to our identity. We learn to change, and to be taught and to grow.

Dolly Chugh is an award-winning associate professor and social psychologist at the Stern School of Business at New York University. Her research focuses on the “psychology of good people”. How and why most of us, however well-intended, are still prone to race and gender bias, as well as what she calls “bounded ethicality.”  

Kurt and Tim sat down with Dolly for this episode in Spring 2021 to talk about the concept of “good-ish” which is a central theme to her book The Person You Mean to Be: How Good People Fight Bias. In subsequent episodes we have referenced Dolly's interview and work many times, so we wanted to republish her episode so you can enjoy listening to her insights again.

In our conversation with Dolly we learn about her beautiful analogy of headwinds and tailwinds that describe the invisible biases and systemic issues that many people in our world face. She explains the “Hmmm Framework” that she came up with after the January 6th Attack on the Capitol. And, of course, we discuss music and how Dolly incorporates it into her teaching and her writing.

In our focused Grooving Session, Tim and Kurt extract the meaningful ways that we can apply Dolly’s work into our everyday lives. We summarize the key parts of our interview with her and how we can each challenge ourselves to find our good-ish groove!

(2:41) Speed round questions

(4:12) What is the difference between good and good-ish? 

(9:09) Why is a growth mindset so difficult?

(12:28) Why we should integrate psychology more into our educational and political systems

(15:48) How systemic racism and unconscious bias are related

(29:12) Hmmm Framework and thought experiments

(34:04) How do we discover our own blind spots?

(38:58) How Dolly incorporates music into her teaching and writing

(43:21) Applications from our interview with Dolly in our Grooving Session:

1. Step back and be intentional, use “when...then…” statements.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Dolly Chugh: http://www.dollychugh.com/about-dolly 

Dolly Chugh, The Person You Mean to Be: How Good People Fight Bias https://amzn.to/35tGwMe 

Carol Dweck, Mindset, The New Psychology of Success https://amzn.to/3wDv10I 

Episode 196: Living Happier By Making the World Better with Max Bazerman https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/living-happier-by-making-the-world-better-with-max-bazerman/

Mahzarin Banaji https://psychology.fas.harvard.edu/people/mahzarin-r-banaji 

Molly Kern https://www.molly-kern.com/ 

Happy Days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee0gziqT2Yk&ab_channel=ChiefScheiderChiefScheider 

Grey’s Anatomy https://youtu.be/dSGLObjyFvA 

Steve Martin and Nuala Walsh, Episode 209: GAABS and Improving the Future for Every Applied Behavioral Scientist https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/improving-the-future-for-every-applied-behavioral-scientist/

Katy Milkman, How to Change https://amzn.to/3wDZHzc 

Confronting the legacy of housing discrimination https://www.cbs.com/shows/cbs_this_morning/video/vLnaRgBIed_ph_NxZa2ZaivfdC_FeD1f/white-americans-confront-legacy-of-housing-discrimination/ 

Harvard Implicit Association Test https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ 

Alec Lacamoire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Lacamoire 

Lake Wobegon Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon 

Episode 214: Observing the Non-Obvious: How to Spot Trends Around You with Rohit Bhargava https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-non-obvious-rohit-bhargava/

Hamilton “Alexander Hamilton” https://youtu.be/VhinPd5RRJw 

In the Heights “Blackout” https://youtu.be/T0V2cCjf1Tk 

Something Rotten! “A Musical” https://youtu.be/1KFNcy9VjQI 

Bruno Mars “The Lazy Song” https://youtu.be/fLexgOxsZu0 

38 Special “Hold On Loosely” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJtf7R_oVaw 

Buffalo Springfield “For What It’s Worth” https://youtu.be/80_39eAx3z8 

For many years, the general consensus by many researchers and practitioners was that providing people with short-term extrinsic rewards sapped their long-term motivation. This led to some organizations reducing or not using short-term rewards at all. However, this perspective has always had some detractors and now even more research shows that this belief is misleading.

In this episode, Kurt and Tim explore the research paper by Indranil Goswami and Oleg Urmisky with the lovely title of “The Dynamic Effect of Incentives on Post-Reward Task Engagement” that shows that while short-term incentives drive an immediate reduction in task engagement, this only lasts for a short time and that engagement rebounds to the baseline relatively quickly.  

We examine some of the backstory to this belief, what the study showed, and review the implications of this.    

The Dynamic Effect of Incentives on Post-Reward Task Engagement: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312100138_The_dynamic_effect_of_incentives_on_postreward_task_engagement 

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves