Today’s topic and subject matter is a tough one. I’m talking with my friend David Gate. David is a writer and poet. He has a new book releasing in 2025 called A Rebellion of Care. But David also has a long history as a worship leader, songwriter, and artist.

David wrote an article recently in response to the new Ryan Coogler move Sinners, starring Michael B Jordan. The title of that article was “How White Charismatic Worship Stole from the Black Church: The Vampires who steal stories and songs and culture.” I know. It’s a bold, often cutting article. And while I don’t agree with everything he says, I believe he gets to the heart of a tension that many feel.

As with most of American culture throughout history, we have not given due credit to the black church. To black music. Black innovation. We have borrowed (or as David would say – stolen) from black culture and profited wildly off of its innovation and yet have not cared about black liberation in the white charismatic church. Which is the heart of what this conversation is about.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #358: Two White Guys Talking About The Black Church, Black Music, & Black Liberation (An Interview with David Gate) appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with my friend Andy Cherry. Andy is a Worship Leader, former Worship Pastor, Songwriter with Capitol CMG, and touring bandmate with Brandon Lake.

Andy is mega talented and a thoughtful voice on the tensions of worship and industry. As a professional songwriter, he’s someone whose livelihood is connected to the worship industry. We have a great chat about excellence culture in the church. Has it gone too far? Why it’s uncomfortable to combine the words “worship” and “industry”.   Why we need to expand the kinds of leaders we hire into Worship Pastor roles. At the heart of it all is a love for Jesus, a passion for His presence, and a desire to serve the people of God through honest art and biblical faithfulness.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #357: The Separation of Church and Concert with Andy Cherry appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Dr. Lester Ruth, a research professor of Christian Worship at Duke Divinity School. If you go back in the archives you’ll see I interviewed Lester and Swee Hong Lim around the time they released their book A History of Contemporary Praise & Worship. Lester is a worship historian. The subject of this interview is about Christian Nationalism and Worship, a new course that Lester has been teaching.

I wanted to interview Lester about this because I believe it has so much relevance to our current political climate, the church, and our worship practices. Now…I know anything political tends to bring out some tensions. And this may cause some frustration for you. But the goal here is not to be partisan or take sides. We’re merely looking at the history of Christian nationalism today and even around the world. We talk about the three strands of Christian nationalism in the US today. We talk about the intersection of worship and christian nationalism and how that influences the kinds of songs we sing. We also talk about how we can have healthier dialogue together, no matter our political differences. We even end the podcast with some Civil War history and Lester’s reading habits/suggestions.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #356: Christian Nationalism and Worship: Faith, Politics, & Identity with Dr. Lester Ruth appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Andrew Osenga. Andrew is an artist, songwriter, producer, musician, and author. He used to do A&R with Integrity Music. Used to have a band called The Normals. Was a part of Caedmon’s Call. Has a host of solo records and albums. He’s a very thoughtful voice in this space of worship and spiritual formation. He leads a project called Anchor Hymns. This was a deep, far ranging conversation.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #355: How Industry And Christian Product Has Influenced Worship in the Local Church with Andrew Osenga appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is an interesting juxtaposition to last week’s podcast with Jason Houtsma. Jason leads worship in a church of less than 100 people. Today’s guest – Jordan Howerton – is the Worship Pastor for one of the largest churches in the country – Christ’s Church of the Valley in Phoenix, AZ.

If you’ve listened to the my podcast for a while, you’ll know I don’t believe bigger is better. There is beauty in small. There is dignity in serving and pastoring a small church with incremental or slow growth year after year. But for today, I want us to dive into the mega church dynamic.

This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies. 

One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. 

I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough.

IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you.

Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. 

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #354: Leading Teams and Leading Worship in a Mega Church with Jordan Howerton appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies. 

One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. 

I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough.

IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you.

Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. 

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #353: Small Church Worship, Click Tracks, & How Anyone Can Make a Worship Album with Jason Houtsma appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies. 

One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. 

I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough.

IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you.

Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. 

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #352: Discipleship, Ego, & Pursuing the Presence of God in Your Local Church with John Wilds appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Natalie Runion – Natalie is a worship leader, author, speaker, and founder of the online community Raised to Stay. She’s written two books – Raised to Stay and The House that Jesus Built, both powerful, insightful reads into the realities of local church ministry.

In this conversation we talk about worship ministry tensions, aging out of ministry roles, challenges for women in ministry, the idol of green room culture, responding to church hurt, and why our obsession with church growth can get us off track.

Natalie is bold, challenging, and an important voice to the church today.

This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies. 

One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. 

I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough.

IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you.

Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #351: Anointing Over Gifting, Women in Worship, & Evaluating the Foundation of Our Ministries with Natalie Runion appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #350: Deciphering, Unlearning, and Reframing Mega Church Worship Models with Becky Ykema appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #349: Darwin Hobbs on Finding Your Voice, Gospel Music in the Church, & Why We Can’t Stop Talking About Racism. appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.