Today’s conversation is an interesting juxtaposition to last week’s podcast with Jason Houtsma. Jason leads worship in a church of less than 100 people. Today’s guest – Jordan Howerton – is the Worship Pastor for one of the largest churches in the country – Christ’s Church of the Valley in Phoenix, AZ.

If you’ve listened to the my podcast for a while, you’ll know I don’t believe bigger is better. There is beauty in small. There is dignity in serving and pastoring a small church with incremental or slow growth year after year. But for today, I want us to dive into the mega church dynamic.

This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies. 

One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. 

I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough.

IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you.

Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. 

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #354: Leading Teams and Leading Worship in a Mega Church with Jordan Howerton appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies. 

One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. 

I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough.

IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you.

Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. 

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #353: Small Church Worship, Click Tracks, & How Anyone Can Make a Worship Album with Jason Houtsma appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies. 

One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. 

I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough.

IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you.

Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. 

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #352: Discipleship, Ego, & Pursuing the Presence of God in Your Local Church with John Wilds appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Natalie Runion – Natalie is a worship leader, author, speaker, and founder of the online community Raised to Stay. She’s written two books – Raised to Stay and The House that Jesus Built, both powerful, insightful reads into the realities of local church ministry.

In this conversation we talk about worship ministry tensions, aging out of ministry roles, challenges for women in ministry, the idol of green room culture, responding to church hurt, and why our obsession with church growth can get us off track.

Natalie is bold, challenging, and an important voice to the church today.

This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies. 

One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. 

I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough.

IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you.

Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #351: Anointing Over Gifting, Women in Worship, & Evaluating the Foundation of Our Ministries with Natalie Runion appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #350: Deciphering, Unlearning, and Reframing Mega Church Worship Models with Becky Ykema appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #349: Darwin Hobbs on Finding Your Voice, Gospel Music in the Church, & Why We Can’t Stop Talking About Racism. appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #348: David Leonard on Creating in Community, Corporate Worship, & The Challenges of Being an Artist appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today we welcome Jeff Cochran to the Beyond Sunday Podcast. Jeff is the founder of the Spiritual Abuse Institute and the host of the Church Disrupted podcast.  Jeff is a business owner, church consultant, and has spent many years in local church ministry. His insights into spiritual abuse, church systems, and creating healtheir churches is so insightful. These are TOUGH TOPICS but so necessary to talk about so that we not only create GROWING church but also SAFE churches, free of abusive practices.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #347: Jeff Cochran on Spiritual Abuse, Mega Church Systems, & Fostering Healthier Worship Ministries appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #346: Nathan Apffel & Chris Ayoub on The Religion Business appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #345: Rich Villodas on Contemplative vs Charismatic Tensions, Church Growth, & The Narrow Path of Jesus appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.