Today’s conversation is returning to our roots at BSW – talking with a worship leader about worship. We’ve been talking to academics and historians – which we will continue to do – but sometimes it feels good to throw it back and have a good ole worship leader conversation. Lizzie Morgan is a gifted young worship leader who grew up in the church and has been singing her whole life. She auditioned for Lauren Daigle, sang with Lauren, and has since been a part of tours with Maverick City, Red Worship, and various other groups.

I loved this conversation because of where it went. If you know me – I get a little bored with just talking about worship songwriting and worship records. Sorry, I just do…but this conversation went somewhere I didn’t anticipate – talki  ng about how different generations have viewed church and worship and what we can learn from that. What did previous generations do well? What regrets do they have? What previous generations have passed down…does the next generation even want it? We also talk about building setlist, flow, reimagining how we do worship, as well as Lizzie’s new record Not My Will.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

The post #369: Church Styles, Worship Styles, & Multi-Generational Setlists with Lizzie Morgan appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

As a young worship leader, I used to ask myself the question: “Why is worship such a big deal?” Not in the sense of “God isn’t worthy of it…” but I realized there were no worship leaders in the Bible. Lots of singing. And our church gatherings are built around worship. And there’s a worship industry. And a constant stream of songs and songwriters. It’s a big deal in our modern church culture.

I consoled myself with the thought that God is worthy of it. We sing so much because he’s worthy. We write so many songs because he’s worthy. We have so many services because he’s worthy.

And while that might not be wrong… has our emphasis on worship led us to an imbalance in our gatherings? Has our emphasis on worship being all about God, led us to neglect the very real horizontal aspects of ministry and discipleship?

I wanted to talk about it. My guest today is Dr. Tom Wadsorth, New Testament scholar whose doctoral dissertation was why the first century church did not use worship language when it described its gathering.

I know that is controversial. This is a worship podcast. You may be a worship leader. You may be a songwriter who resources the church with new songs.

We’re not talking about removing worship and singing from the church. That would be an obvious Biblical misinterpretation. What we are looking at is how did the first century church view its gathering and what can we learn from it today?

Because I don’t know about you – it’s possible to worship, listen to sermons, and give in the offering for a lifetime and not mature in my faith. Our churches are full… and growing numerically…but are people maturing in their faith? 

What would it look like for us to reimagine our gatherings?

This is controversial. You may disagree some. But I think it’s a healthy theme for us to wrestle with.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

The post #368: Why The Early Church Didn’t Have Worship Services: A Conversation with Dr. Tom Wadsworth appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation gets a little political. I’m talking with Matthew D. Taylor about his book The Violent Take it By Force: The Christian Movement that is Threatening Our Democracy.

That title may sound like an angry rant against anyone who voted for Donald Trump. Some sort of desperate ploy by a Democrat to take a cheap shot. It is absolutely not that. America is a democracy. Every US citizen has a right to vote for who they want to vote for. This is not a critique about Donald Trump or anyone who voted for him.

What we’re talking about a sect of Independent Charismatic Christianity that has become incredibly influential in the last 25 years and has wedded charismatic spirituality with a messianic understanding of Donald Trump. And these are the leaders who are closely connected to the White House today.

What does this have to do with worship? Well, it shouldn’t have much of anything to do with worship but it has been interesting to see Christian worship music and some of the more influential worship movements become so aligned with President Trump. When worship hits the mainstream in such a significant way, it’s worth studying why. Is it a religious revival or is worship or Christianity being used as a tool for empire? 

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

The post #367: The Christian Movement That Is Threatening Our Democracy with Matthew D. Taylor appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

On July 25, 2025 Isaac Caree released a podcast interview with Norman Gyamfi. Norman is a music industry executive and part owner of Maverick City Music. Suffice it to say, this conversation created a firestorm of controversy and conversation around Gospel Music, CCM, and the racial tension embedded within the music industry. We know these things are going on, but for maybe the first time – a business executive let it ALL out.

Being that Beyond Sunday is a podcast about worship and the church, I wanted to talk about it so I decided to invite Rick Robinson, a Gospel Music vet onto the show to break down what Norman said and why it is so problematic.

One of the things Rick says in the interview is: “Gospel music is a sound. Gospel music is a culture.” And while it’s ok to reinvent and innovate, the beauty of Gospel music does not need toned down or whitewashed in order to succeed. If we do that, we lose the heart and soul of what makes Gospel music what it is.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

The post #366: The Truth About The Gospel Industry That Is Actually True with Rick Robinson appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

The post #365: Artist Insecurity, Fear, & The Servant-Hearted Worship Leader with Jon Reddick appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Pastor and author Brian Zahnd. Brian is the founding and lead pastor of Word of Life Church in St Joseph, MO and the author of 11 books.

Brian is not my pastor, but he’s one of the voices I look to in this cultural moment. He’s a voice of clarity, sanity, history, and Bible.

Here’s a quick quote from the interview:

“I’m convinced the greatest task of the pastoral vocation in America is discipling people who have already thoroughly been discipled into a rival religion.”

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

The post #364: The Rival Religion of America and A Prophetic Call to Pastors with Brian Zahnd appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

The post #363: The Current State Of Christian Music with Dustin Lolli From Sanctus Real appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

One my favorite books this year was Be The Bridge: Pursuing God’s Heart for Racial Reconciliation by Latasha Morrison. A wonderful book that is challenging but also compassionate and full of grace.

We’ve waded into conversations like this recently with Nikki Lerner, Darwin Hobbs, and David Gate.

Why are we doing this? Because I truly believe it matters. It matters for our souls, our relationships, our churches, and our nation. We can bury our heads in the sand and pretend like it’s not an issue or we can move closer to one another be the bridge in this work of reconciliation.

Latasha founded Be the Bridge in 2016 to encourage racial reconciliation among all ethnicities, to promote racial unity in America, and to equip others to do the same.

In this conversation we go pretty deep. We talk about Latasha’s ministry work, being hired in both black and white churches, brown faces in white spaces (another one of Latasha’s books), the challenge with being a multicultural church today, the church’s complicity in racism throughout history, why facing the darkest parts of our history matters, music and racial bias, and so much more.

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

The post #362: Is Racial Reconciliation and a Healthy Multicultural Church Possible? An interview with Latasha Morrison appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

So we talk a lot about the worship industry on this podcast. Sometimes that conversation can result in a let’s just wine and complain about how awful it is.

But my guests today are not content with that sort of negativity! It will not be tolerated!

But here’s the reality: The music industry is built on financial inequality and the worship industry is no different. Those at the top often make a killing, while many musicians and artists struggle to survive. I sat down with @cmcclarney & @thejessephillips from @realfunrecords to talk about it. We’re pulling back the worship industry curtain just a bit to imagine a better way. Well, they are imagining a better way.

Many professional musicians you know and love from hit records have no stake in the songs they play on. They essentially get a day rate of $100-$200. Artists have so much money they need to pay back that it’s not sustainable for creativity or a career. Chris & Jesse are forging a new path in a space steeped in “but we’ve always done it this way”. 

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

The post #361: Reimagining the Worship Industry with Chris McClarney and Jesse Phillips appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is a bit of a departure from our usual worship leader/worship industry conversation. I’m talking with Stanley Hauerwas.

Here’s his bio:

Stanley Hauerwas, a theologian and Christian ethicist, is professor emeritus of theological ethics and of law at Duke University. He is the author or editor of more than fifty books, including Resident Aliens: Life in the Christian Colony (1989), which he co-authored with William H. Willimon. His lower-middle-class upbringing informed his later approach to theological and ethical questions (at one point, he was apprenticed to his father, a bricklayer). In 2001, Time magazine named Hauerwas “America’s Best Theologian”; he replied that “best” is not a theological category. 

Stanley will turn 85 this year.

I’m new to Stanley’s work but absolutely devoured his new book Jesus Changes Everything as well as his landmark work, Resident Aliens. I find his thinking incredibly helpful in navigating our current times. He don’ts pull any punches or hide behind any veneer of religiosity. 

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #360: The Church, Culture, & How Jesus Changes Everything with Stanley Hauerwas appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.