Books of Titans Podcast

Prior to reading Thucydides’ Peloponnesian War, I envisioned a sort of Braveheart-like battle with lines of Athenians rushing towards lines of Spartans. That’s not even close to what happened. Most battles were proxy battles far from either Athens or Sparta and many battles were fought by sea.

The Peloponnesian War took place between 431 - 404BC. This work covers years 431 - 411BC, abruptly ends mid-year, and is then picked up by Xenophon in Hellenika.

Thucydides uses speeches (141 of them) to add tension & drama to the narrative. We as readers become part of the action, reading the speeches and wondering how the audience will respond. Thucydides also highlights themes of movement, technology, panic, and forms of government to compare and contrast the Athenians and Peloponnesians.

In this episode, I give a brief overview of the work, share some themes and favorite quotes, and close with the ideas that stuck out the most through this work.

Show Notes:

* The Speeches of Pericles - Books of Titans Podcast #229

* Intro to Thucydides - Podcast episode mentioned

* Book Version - The Landmark Thucydides

If you were to rank the individual suffering of those in Greek Literature, Andromache would easily rise to the top of that list. She lost her father, 7 brothers, and husband Hector to one man, Achilles. Her son was thrown from the walls of Troy. To top off the suffering cake, she was then forced to marry the son of her husband’s murderer, Neoptolemus.

This tragedy begins with Andromache grasping the alter of Thetis in Thessaly, begging for her life. Her and Neoptolemus have had a son, which has made Neoptolemus’ Spartan wife, Hermione quite jealous. To top it off, Hermione, the daughter of Helen of Troy, is barren and is seeking to kill Andromache and her son.

The Iliad permeates this tragedy in both storyline and direct quotes and references. There are some beautiful themes of justice and monogamy and other not so beautiful themes of jealousy, strife, and injustice.

This is an incredible look into the horror of the life of a woman on the losing side of a war, forced to live with the victors as a slave. I love the painting above. Everyone is dressed in color except Andromache, veiled in black, lost in her personal tragedy. This is “peacetime,” and yet there is no peace for Andromache.

In this episode, I walk through the tragedy play highlighting the story, themes, and beautiful dialogue. I also refer to two other tragedy plays by Euripides:

This tragedy by Euripides was written in 420BC, 10 years after Children of Heracles. Historically, this is in the midst of the Peloponnesian War. Mythologically, it’s at the point of Heracles’ life where he is completing his 12th and final labor. While away, his family is in danger. He returns, neutralizes the danger, but becomes danger himself in the form of madness brought on by the gods. In this state, he kills his wife and children with the very bow that has brought victory in his life.

Awaking from this madness, Heracles is confronted with the most cruel situation—he must live out his days knowing he killed his family. He opts for suicide but is saved by an act of great kindness.

In considering the historical timeframe, this must have been sweet balm to soldiers returning from war who had experienced or were experiencing their own form of madness. What can save someone in that situation?

I love reading Thucydides’ Peloponnesian War alongside these tragedies and considering what was happening in and around Athens while these plays are being written and performed. It adds a fascinating element in the consideration of their content.

Euripides wrote this tragedy in 430BC, a fateful year that saw the beginnings of the Peloponnesian War. It’s interesting to read this play in light of the historical atmosphere. Athens was entering a war with Sparta. The Spartans traced their descent from Heracles, and in this tragedy, the children of Heracles are near Athens (in Marathon) seeking refuge. Will Athens hold to her ideals and protect the suppliants? Will force beat deliberation? Will the innocent suffer?

This is a wonderful tragedy play, with elements of humor, despair, and deep insight. In this episode, I walk through the play, cover important scenes, quotes, and themes.

Related podcast episodes:

You, Aphrodite, lead captive the stubborn hearts of gods and of mortals.

Aphrodite conquers all. Or nearly all. Zeus is under her spell and only a few, Athena and Artemis among them, have resisted her.

Love is so powerful a force that it can even cause a step-mother to lust after her step-son. That at least is the premise for this tragedy and so the battle of Aphrodite (love, desire) is fought against Artemis (chastity) through Phaedra’s forbidden love for Hippolytus.

Humans are quick to judge and often seek revenge before knowing the full story. This requires pardon and Hippolytus must decide whether to grant it to both his step-mother Phaedra and his father Theseus.

This tragedy play won the award in Athens in 428BC, amidst the Peloponnesian War. It’s a stunning play and I try to capture its beauty and power in this episode.

In Book 2 of The Peloponnesian War by Thucydides, the Athenian general Pericles gives two extraordinary speeches. One is a eulogy and the other a response to an angry and devastated populace in the midst of war and pestilence.

These speeches create a beautiful blend of history and exploration. Thucydides presents the historical facts of war—the size of armies, the results of certain battles, and naval vs land strategies. But it’s the speeches that allow him to explore the mindset, beliefs, governance, values, and national habits that play a role in those battles.

Gone are the gods of Homer. Can democracy, courage, experience, and dialogue take the place of the gods? How do the strategies, preparations, provisions and levels of courage differ between the people of the Peloponnese and the Athenians? We learn about these things in these speeches. We learn about the leader’s ideas and the feelings of the populace. It’s a fascinating way to present history.

In this podcast episode, I cover two speeches by Pericles and then compare a set of speeches by the Peloponnesian commanders and Athenian leaders. All speeches covered occur in book 2 of 8 in Thucydides great masterpiece.

I just finished leading a 9-week, in-person reading group covering the Iliad. It was such a good experience. I’ve also participated in a number of groups over the years and wanted to use this podcast episode to share what I’ve learned and to hopefully encourage you to start your own reading group.

Myths:

* You don’t need to have all of the answers.

* You don’t need to have an advanced degree.

How to Prepare:

* As you read the book you will cover, use different color pens/highlighters each time you read it. This will help you identify observations you had and will be helpful when you are leading the group.

* Find podcast episodes that cover the book.

* Find book guides that contain questions for the book.

Facilitating the Reading Group:

* Set expectations - expected time commitment, number of meetings, etc.

* Limit the group to between 5 - 15 people.

* Require an assignment:

* A paragraph or an essay due a day before the meeting.

* Use a shared Google folder so everyone can read the work of each other.

* This has the added benefit of encouraging completion of the reading a day before the meeting. It also prepares the attendees to have a thought-out idea to address during the meeting.

* Translation - attempt to use the same translation if it’s a work in another language. This will help everyone easily be able to locate the passage under discussion.

Rules:

* Use the first meeting to get to know each other. Don’t cover the book at all.

* Discourage the reading of the book’s introduction. Just have them start right in with the book.

* No outside influences - attempt to just discuss the book, not other books.

Your Role as Facilitator:

* You are not the teacher. The book is the teacher.

* Ask questions that facilitate the discussion.

* Keep the discussion on track.

* Don’t give away spoilers to those who haven’t read the story. Keep the magic alive.

Tools Specific to The Iliad

* The History of Literature Podcast: Homer and His Iliad (with Robin Lane Fox)

* Ascend the Great Books Podcast (incredible resource with a podcast episode per book of the Iliad)

* Iliad Reading Guide (probably the single most helpful resource outside of the actual epic)

* Young Heretics Podcast

“Sing, O Muse, a new song about Ilium, a funeral dirge accompanied by tears.”

The glory of the Iliad is over. The Muses are being summoned to sing a funeral dirge, a new song of mourning for the city of Troy.

This tragedy takes place in the immediate aftermath of the Trojan War. The Greeks have gotten past the famous Trojan walls, not by force but by trickery. They’ve entered the city, killed the men and children, and taken the women as slaves.

In this period between the fall of Troy and the sailing back by the Greeks, these Trojan Women have become slaves and are being doled out to the Greek Warriors. Each Trojan Woman is paired to a Greek as a slave for the rest of their lives.

These women have just witnessed the brutal deaths of their loved ones and have seen the city they loved burned to the ground. Helen is amongst them. She is one of the Trojan captives. Helen of Troy.

At this point, everyone wants her dead, including her ex-husband, Menelaus.

In this episode of the podcast, I give a brief introduction to this tragedy play, talk about three characters who stuck out to me, and share the one thing I’m still thinking about after having read The Trojan Women by Euripides.

In one of the most tragic stories of Greek Mythology, Agamemnon must sacrifice his daughter Iphigenia in order to secure favorable winds from Artemis so that the Greek Army can sail to Troy and retrieve Helen. That sacrifice sets off a series of events that curse a family line and destroy Agamemnon himself.

It’d be fun to imagine an alternate ending. One that doesn’t involve the utterly tragic death of Iphigenia and a father being forced to kill his own daughter.

That’s what happens here. Euripides provides some Ancient Greek Fan Fiction, an alternate history. Iphigenia is saved at the last moment in a scenario similar to Abraham and Issac where another sacrifice is provided at the last moment.

Iphigenia is then whisked away by Artemis to Tauris where she becomes priestess at the temple of Artemis. One lovely job requirement is to sacrifice any Greeks who arrive in Tauris. Orestes, a Greek, and Iphegenia’s brother, arrives, setting up the remainder of this story.

In this episode, I give a brief overview of the play, talk about some major themes, ask some questions I hope you’ll help me answer below, and share the one thing I’m still thinking about after reading Euripides’ Iphigenia in Tauris.

Admetus can escape Hades if he can find someone to die in his place. His wife Alcestis agrees to die for him in the ultimate sacrifice. Is she in the right? Should she have been the person to take his place? Where does that leave him if she dies?

These tragic elements are balanced with comedic release in the arrival of Heracles amidst this tremendous household grief. It turns this play about Necessity, marriage, and hospitality into a satyr drama to lessen the blow of the questions raised.

In this episode, I give a brief overview of the play, talk about the key themes, and share the one thing I’m still thinking about after reading Alcestis by Euripides.