People are told their whole lives how important it is to find their purpose. But many find the search frustrating. They feel there's one true calling or one grand goal they're supposed to be pursuing, but they can't seem to discern what it is.

My guest, Jordan Grumet, author of The Purpose Code, says that searching for what he calls your big P purpose can be fruitless and even harmful, and that a better path is to embrace a life of little p purposes. Today on the show, Jordan explains the difference between big P and little p purposes and argues that the former can lead to anxiety while embracing the latter can be the path to meaning, satisfaction, connection, and even the legacy you were looking for in the first place. We discuss how Jordan found his way to this philosophy after burning out as a doctor, practical ways to discover your own little p purposes, what he thinks we get wrong in making family our purpose, and what his work in hospice has taught him about living a life without regret.

Connect With Jordan Grumet

• Jordan's website
• Jordan's Substack: The Purpose Code

 00:00 Intro & Show Overview

0:41 Meet Jordan Grumet

1:46 From Doctor to Purpose Writer

5:00 Big P vs Little P Purpose

8:32 Why Purpose Talk Makes People Anxious

11:15 What the Research Says

13:42 Burnout and Big P Purpose

16:18 The Podcasting Example: Process vs Goals

19:42 Legacy Through Little P Purpose

28:24 Finding Your Purpose Anchors

38:01 The Climb: Building Your Purpose

43:14 Family, Regrets, and Final Thoughts

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With the release of Christopher Nolan's adaptation of the Odyssey, it seems like everyone's been talking about a 3,000-year-old epic again. But my guest thinks this ancient tale offers a framework for understanding our modern lives that you probably haven't heard before.

Patrick Deneen is a professor of political science and the author of American Odyssey. Today on the show, Patrick argues that Odysseus embodies a tension that has defined the human experience, and especially the American experience: we're both home-seeking and exploring, rooted and restless. We long to settle down somewhere, yet we're equally driven to push beyond the horizon in search of something new. Patrick shares how Alexis de Tocqueville made this observation about our country two centuries ago, how Odysseus navigates the temptation to become both more than human and less than human, and the surprising act Patrick thinks is the most heroic thing Odysseus does. We end our conversation with the idea that having a home can give us the confidence to explore, or as David Brooks put it, "All of life is a series of daring explorations from a secure base."

Resources Related to the Podcast

• AoM Article: 3 Lessons From Homer’s Odyssey
• AoM Podcast #337: What Homer’s Odyssey Can Teach Us Today
• Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville
• "Ulysses" by Alfred, Lord Tennyson

Connect With Patrick Deneen

• Patrick's faculty page
• Patrick's website
• American Odyssey's page on Creed and Culture's website

0:00 Intro & sponsor plugs

0:41 Patrick Deneen's American Odyssey & Nolan's film

2:28 Nolan's changes to Odysseus's character

4:56 Dante's Odysseus in hell

7:33 Why Odyssey keeps drawing Patrick back

13:02 The most American text: home-seeking vs exploring

17:15 Tocqueville's restless Americans

20:03 Restlessness as source of American unhappiness

21:03 Odysseus vs the temptation to be more/less than human

26:14 That temptation in modern American life

31:26 Odysseus's underworld talk with Achilles

39:41 What today's Americans can take from that

41:24 Does Odysseus stay home? The "sequels" to The Odyssey

45:49 Home as the foundation for risk-taking and adventure

51:14 Where to find the book

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When most people think of negotiation, they picture big, high-stakes moments: haggling over the price of a house, negotiating a starting salary, or hammering out the terms of a business deal. But negotiation is also something we do every day. It’s working out who’s taking on which chores with your spouse, convincing a coworker to help on a project, or even deciding where to go for dinner with friends. The better you understand negotiation — which is really about influencing other people’s decisions — the better you’ll be at navigating conflicts and opportunities both big and small.

My guest has spent decades studying the art and science of wielding that influence. John Richardson teaches negotiation at MIT’s Sloan School of Management and is the co-author of Never Settle. Today on the show, John shares what he learned from negotiation legends like Roger Fisher, co-author of Getting to Yes, and FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss. He unpacks the skills of master negotiators, including how to build reciprocity, uncover what people actually want, and keep your emotions from hijacking your judgment. We also get into the part of negotiation that makes people the most uncomfortable: the back-and-forth over hard numbers like price and salary and how to handle those conversations with greater confidence and better results.

• Resources Related to the PodcastAoM Podcast #234: Haggling and Deal Making Advice From a FBI Hostage Negotiator (With Chris Voss)
• AoM Podcast #559: How to Handle Difficult Conversations (With Sheila Heen)
• Influence: The Essential Guide to the Psychology of Influence and Persuasion in Everyday Life by Robert B. Cialdini
• AoM Article: How Labeling Your Emotions Can Help You Take Control
• Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In by Roger Fisher
• Start with NO…The Negotiating Tools that the Pros Don’t Want You to Know by Jim Camp

Connect With John Richardson

• Never Settle website
• John’s faculty page

0:00 Everyday Negotiation & Meet John Richardson

2:18 John's Path Into Negotiation

9:50 Why People Fear Negotiation

12:34 Roger Fisher's Philosophy (Getting to Yes)

17:46 Chris Voss & Hostage Negotiation Tactics

22:54 Give Them a Sandwich (Reciprocity)

30:06 Using Someone's Name

33:59 Managing Your Emotions

39:00 Figuring Out What Everyone Wants

46:29 Distributive Negotiation & Anchoring

54:52 Alternatives, Saying No & Closing

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Most people assume that if a goal is hard to achieve, getting there has to feel hard too. We tend to believe that extraordinary results require extraordinary suffering.

But my guest says the secret to success isn't gritting your teeth; it's making the path enjoyable. His name is Jia Jiang, and in his new book, Easy Discipline, he argues that consistency comes from designing your work and your life so that doing the right thing becomes something you actually want to do. Today on the show, Jia explains the difference between hard and easy discipline, why "eating bitterness" isn't the best way to go after your ambitions, and how to make your work feel more like play without lowering your standards. Along the way, we discuss Soviet hockey, Japanese tea ceremonies, rejection therapy, one-action goals, and the power of pursuing aims that are an expression of who you are.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Jia's previous book: Rejection Therapy
• Jia's 100 Days of Rejection Therapy videos, including asking for a "burger refill"
• AoM Article: Motivation Over Discipline
• AoM Podcast #954: The Feel-Good Method of Productivity

Connect With Jia Jiang

• Jia on Substack
• Jia's website
• Jia on LinkedIn

0:00 Introduction to the AOM Podcast

0:41 Introducing Jia Jiang and Easy Discipline

1:36 Welcome Jia Jiang / The Myth of Sisyphus

6:05 Hard Discipline vs. Easy Discipline

9:36 Eating Bitterness

10:44 Soviet Hockey: Tarasov vs. Tikhonov

16:02 The EASY Framework: Enjoyment

31:02 Artistry and Ichi-go Ichi-e

33:54 Systems and One Action Goals

41:22 Repetition with Variation

44:18 Why: Being True to Yourself

52:33 Where to Find Jia Jiang's Work

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Many of us grow up believing that midlife is when things start going downhill. Your body's breaking down, your best work is behind you, and you may fall into a full-blown existential crisis. But a lot of what we think we know about midlife turns out to be based more on pop culture than actual research.

My guest says the reality is much more encouraging. Her name is Margie Lachman. She's a professor of psychology, the Director of the Lifespan Lab at Brandeis University, and the author of Primetime: A New Vision for Midlife. Today on the show, Margie discusses what age range constitutes midlife — and how it's not just a matter of chronological age — and whether people really become less happy and experience a midlife crisis during these years. She explains the surprising ways your mind continues to improve even as some abilities slow down, and why this stage of life often represents a peak combination of creativity and judgment. We also talk about the real challenges that come with midlife and how adopting the right mindset and habits can mitigate those downsides while helping you make the most of what Margie argues can truly be a sweet spot in life — a time when you still have much of your physical and mental vitality, and it's coupled with seasoned experience and wisdom.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Seasons of a Man’s Life by Daniel Levinson
• AoM series on Levinson’s research
• Transformations: Growth and Change in Adult Life by Roger Gould
• Passages: Predictable Crises of Adult Life by Gail Sheehy
• AoM Podcast #598: Journeying From the First to the Second Half of Life With James Hollis
• AoM Podcast #776: How to Shift Out of the Midlife Malaise

Connect With Margie Lachman

• Margie's website
• Margie's faculty page

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

George Washington is perhaps the most familiar figure in American history. But most people really only know the image of him they see in marble statues and patriotic paintings. Behind those symbols was a real man: ambitious, self-taught, intensely concerned with honor, and constantly wrestling with the immense responsibilities history placed on his shoulders.

In celebration of America's 250th birthday, we're taking an extended look at the life of the man more responsible than anyone else for the nation's founding. Here to unpack that life for us is H.W. Brands, a historian and the author of a new biography of Washington, American Patriarch. Brands traces Washington's journey from a young Virginia surveyor to military commander, founding father, and first president. Along the way, we discuss how Washington's upbringing shaped his character, why he became a surprisingly effective military leader despite losing more battles than he won, how he held together a fragile revolutionary army, how he shaped the presidency through the precedents he set, and whether a leader like Washington could still succeed today.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• H.W.'s previous appearances on the AoM podcast:
• Episode #696: Theodore Roosevelt, The Last Romantic
• Episode #908: Would You Have Been a Patriot or a Loyalist?
• AoM Podcast #223: George Washington, Benedict Arnold, and Valiant Ambition
• AoM Podcast #366: Teach Yourself Like George Washington
• AoM Podcast #719: The Surprising Pessimism of America’s Founding Fathers
• AoM Article: George Washington’s Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior in Company and Conversation

Connect With H.W. Brands

• H.W. on Substack
• H.W.’s faculty page

00:00 Introduction

01:53 About the book American Patriarch

03:03 Washington's childhood & Virginia gentry upbringing

06:54 Self-education, surveying, and early ambition

11:47 First military mission to the Ohio country

17:11 The French and Indian War & Washington's baptism under fire

24:44 Washington marries Martha Custis

33:57 Washington takes command of the Continental Army

40:17 Military strategy: how Washington won by not losing

46:41 Holding the army together at Valley Forge

55:57 Washington as first president & setting precedents

1:09:56 The Farewell Address & legacy

1:10:15 What Washington teaches us today

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The modern idea of retirement was built on a bet that turned out to be wrong. It assumed people would spend most of their lives working and only a relatively short period of time retired. Instead, many Americans now reach 65 healthy, active, and with an entire third of their life ahead of them. Yet we're still using a retirement model designed for a world in which old age was shorter and fewer people expected decades of life after leaving the workforce.

My guest says that outdated assumption creates some unfortunate unintended consequences. It causes people to stress excessively about money, postpone meaningful experiences with family and friends, and sometimes sacrifice the very things that make life worth living in the first place. He argues that by rethinking retirement — not necessarily eliminating it, but reimagining it — we can enjoy more of our lives now while actually feeling more secure about the future.

His name is Derek Coburn, and he's a financial advisor and the author of Let's Retire Retirement. Today on the show, Derek explains why the traditional retirement model came about, why it may no longer make sense for many people, and how working even a few years past 65 can dramatically change the math of retirement planning. We also discuss the surprising psychological challenges many people face after they stop working, why purpose matters more than leisure, and how thinking differently about retirement can free you up to spend more time on what matters most right now — whether that's traveling, strengthening your marriage, or making the most of the limited summers you have left with your kids.

Connect With Derek Coburn

• Derek's website (including his retirement calculator)
• Derek on IG

0:00 - Introduction

1:22 - The Outdated Origins of Retirement (Bismarck's 1889 Social Insurance Plan)

4:12 - Why the Traditional Retirement Model Creates Stress and Anxiety

6:13 - The "Arrival Fallacy" — Why Retirement Isn't What You Think It Will Be

8:42 - The Psychological Crisis of Stopping Work Cold Turkey

11:05 - The Math: How Working 10 More Years Cuts Your Savings Requirement by 96%

13:21 - Enjoying Life NOW Instead of Deferring It to Retirement

14:22 - Maximizing the Limited Summers You Have with Your Kids

19:48 - Sponsor Break

20:07 - What If You Hate Your Job? Find One You "Don't Hate"

22:37 - Side Hustles as an On-Ramp to Work You Love

24:09 - Physical Jobs and Mandatory Retirement — What Then?

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We all want two things that can seem at odds with each other: to be our own person and to belong. We want to stand apart from the crowd, but we also want to be connected to it. When that balance gets out of whack, we either lose ourselves in tribalism or drift into isolation.

My guest today says many of the problems in modern life stem from our inability to hold these two impulses in tension. His name is Luke Burgis, and he’s the author of The One and the 99: Forging Identity in the Age of Social Contagion. Today on the show, Luke explains how becoming a true individual can give you the strength to be a part of a community. We discuss the difference between a solid self and a pseudo self — and what role families and rites of passage can play in moving us toward one or the other — why modern politics feels like a dysfunctional family, the dangers of performative religion, and much more.

• Resources Related to the PodcastLuke’s previous appearances on the AoM podcast:
• Episode #714: Why Do We Want What We Want?
• Episode #910: Thick Desires, Political Atheism, and Living an Anti-Mimetic Life
• The True Believer by Eric Hoffer
• Education of a Wandering Man by Louis L’Amour
• AoM Podcast #1,025: The Life and Legacy of Louis L’Amour
• AoM article with L’Amour’s weekly to-do lists
• AoM article and podcast about C.S. Lewis’ The Abolition of Man and the idea of objective value
• The Courage to Be by Paul Tillich
• The Quest for Community by Robert Nisbet
• AoM Podcast #847: Overdoing Democracy
• AoM Podcast #1,010: How to Resist Group Anxiety and Become a Differentiated Self
• AoM Article: Becoming a Well-Differentiated Leader
• Dying Breed article: A New Kind of Monasticism — The Power of Community to Shape the Soul
• The Rule of St. Benedict

Connect With Luke Burgis

• Luke’s website

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Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

0:54 Guest Intro: Luke Burgis & The One and the 99

4:48 The Parable of the Lost Sheep & the Book's Framework

10:17 Defining the Self (vs. Identity & Soul)

14:37 The Pseudo Self Explained

19:40 How to Develop a Solid Self

25:35 Louis L'Amour & Education for a Solid Self

28:18 Curiositas vs. Studiositas (Ordered vs. Disordered Knowledge)

44:30 Tribalism, Politics, & the Pseudo Self

45:08 How Undifferentiation Fuels Political Dysfunction

51:13 Religion, Performative Piety & the Digital World

54:15 What Monasteries Teach Us About Community & Solid Selves

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Life rarely unfolds according to plan. A relationship implodes. A move or job change doesn't work out. Or you simply fail in a goal you've set for yourself.

My guest has spent almost two decades researching and field-testing how to get back on track when smaller slip-ups and larger upheavals knock you off course. His name is Steve Kamb, and he's the founder of Nerd Fitness and the author of How to Try Again: An Approachable Guide to Navigating Chaos and Making Change THAT STICKS. Today on the show, Steve shares practical principles for dealing with life's frustrating and demoralizing setbacks. We discuss why sometimes the best move is to pause rather than push harder, how to accept reality without resigning yourself to it, why treating change as an experiment can help you beat paralysis and take action, why you should treat consistency with your goals the way you do showering, and more.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Steve's previous appearances on the AoM podcast:
• Episode #42: Level Up Your Life With Nerd Fitness & Steve Kamb
• Episode #170: Level Up Your Life
• Steve's AoM guest posts:
• Don’t Be That Guy: The Taxonomy of Lousy Male Friends
• How Superheroes, Movies, and Video Games Taught Me to Conquer Fear
• Nerd Fitness
• Museum of Failure
• Sunday Firesides: Good Times Are Not Around the Corner (And That's Great News!)
• Sunday Firesides: Treat Life Like an Experiment
• "Lightning Fields" by the Killers

Connect With Steve Kamb

• Steve's website
• Steve on IG
• Steve on LinkedIn
• Steve on Substack

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Walking is one of the most powerful health tools we have. It improves cardiovascular fitness, boosts mood, sharpens cognition, and can even be a predictor of how well you'll age. But all those benefits depend on something we rarely think about until it starts hurting: our feet.

For many of us, walking is so automatic that we never consider the mechanics that make it possible. Yet the way we move, the shoes we wear, and the strength of the muscles in our feet can have a profound impact on how comfortably and efficiently we walk. When something goes wrong at our physical foundation, the effects can ripple upward, leading to pain not just in the feet, but in the knees, hips, and back.

My guest today is Dr. Milica McDowell, a physical therapist and the co-author of the new book Walk. Today on the show, Milica explains why walking speed may be a hidden vital sign, what gives you your signature walking style, and how to spot and address injury-inducing inefficiencies in your gait. We then talk about feet: whether you should worry about pronation, how to rehab plantar fasciitis — and no, it's not stretching — the best kind of shoes to wear, and much more.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• AoM Article: Solvitur Ambulando — It Is Solved By Walking
• AoM podcast episode with Manoush Zomorodi
• AoM Article: I Started Taking a Walk Every Morning. Here’s What Happened to My Health
• AoM Article: 20 Rules for Walking
• AoM podcast episode with Matt Fitzgerald
• Altra shoes
• Vivobarefoot
• Lems shoes (this is the pair Brett wears)
• Tyr weightlifting shoe
• Injinji toe socks
• Toe spacer
• Study on calf raise standards

Connect With Milica McDowell

• Milica's website
• Milica on IG

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.