Cider Chat

Neil MacDonald is a self described "man of the soil". He co-launched Orchard Pig Cider in 2004. His specialty is apple growing and the primary process of the cidermaking at Orchard Pig Cider.

This recording was taped with Neil at CiderCon 2016 in Portland Oregon.

Neil MacDonald, Orchard Park Farms and Orchard Pig Cider The Path to the Orchard Pig Cider

Neil was granted a scholarship from the Nuffield Farming Scholarship Trust which has helped him hone in on his apple growing passion and helped him travel around the world.

Neil uses what is a called a "Bush Orchard" in the UK, which works well with the mechanics of harvesting within high density orchards for a maximum harvest.

What is a bush tree?

• Free standing root stock. A 111, 106, or M25. Neil's farm is currently doing some trials with an A2, B118, P18 root stock. Anything smaller than a 111 or 106 are not strong enough to handle the mechanical harvesting.
• The trees are growing 18 feet tall….And they join up like a high hedge.
• The width of the row is 18 feet wide. If you limit the row size it will limit the use of mechanical harvesting.

The cost structure for maintaining this type of orchard Neil says, "Is considerably less than a high density orchard."

Neil discusses what is required when putting in a 100 acres of apple trees per man with his system of orchard production.

• 1 man
• 1 tractor
• 1 sprayer
• 1 harvester
• 1 mechanical pruner

All this equals – extensive commodity producers!

The two main objectives for growing fruit

• Price – the farmer receives in payment for the crop yield
• Yield – the amount of fruit that can be grown.

From this vantage the orchardist looks at the consumer, which in this case is the cidermaker and meets exactly what the cidermaker looking for:

• Apple juice quanity
• Acid
• Sugar
• Tannin

Mechanical Harvesting in a nutshell

The process is broken down a bit in this chat as follows… but really Ciderville it is best to listen to Neil to get the full scope of what he is describing.)

• Allow the fruit to fall on the ground, which insures that the fruit is fully ripe, the sugars are fully turned and the starches are gone are from it.
• Allowing the apples to fall on the ground encourages the natural yeast for the first ferment.
• Early fermentation comes from the yeast in the orchards.
• The secondary from the fabric of the building where it is fermenting, rather than using cultured yeast.

Fun cider Facts discussed in this Cider Chat:

• Only 1% of alcohol by volume and all pathogens are gone. So why not allow apples to drop on the ground and then harvest?
• Neil chats: Rats in cider? And the not uncommon addition of a leg of mutton into a cider, for a short period of time.

Neil's notes on cider makers here in the US?

They are coming from it as either a brewer or winemaker and as such approach it from 2 completely different paths.

• Winemakers are very clean stylistically
• Brewers approach it from the hop it up perspective.

US cidermakers have a lot to learn from our neighbors to the east and chats like this one with Neil MacDonald will certainly help us more forward to create a sustainable cider trade.

Orchard Park Farms

• Website: Orchard Pig Cider
• Hornblotton, Somerset
• England, BA4 6SF
• orchardparkfarms.com

Contact [email protected] let him know you heard about this internship via Cider Chat

Apprenticeship at Orchard Park Farms go to 39:40 minutes in on this podcast to listen to the description of the intern position. It ends roughly at 41:30.

Qualities:

• 25 or older
• Grafter
• scientific background is a good quality to have
• responsible for Orchard trials.

Neil quotes I loved from this chat:

Make a good quality apple cider. If it is good it will stay. If it is poor you will lose sales and it will fall away.

Quality and drinkability…I use quaffability a lot.

Every orchard is a permanent experiment.

Sponsor of this Cider Chat

Are you thirsty for some UK ciders? Check out Press Then Press for US shipping. Cider Cellars has now closed their on line shop. But at Cider Chat Central we will never forget their support for Cider Chat when it first launched! Thank you Cider Cellars for Sponsoring this episode with Neil MacDonald!

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• For Sale: Mobile Juicing Trailer – this trailer is long gone since this episode was posted. Keep listening for more news from Ciderville!

You might know Darlene Hayes by her blog All into Cider. There you can find some quick cider cocktail lore and recipes. Yes, Cider Cocktails are hot…again! That's right, again! Mixing spirits with cider has been favored by farmers to royalty alike (okay, not sure about the royalty, but I know my gramps used to love to age his cider in a bourbon barrel) ever since cider and spirits have been pouring.

Yes, Ciderville we are both going to become a bit more "in the know" with this special chat with Darlene Hayes on how to make cider cocktails.

Darlene Hayes measures out the bourbon for the Stone Fence cider cocktail New Cider Books By Darlene Hayes

Author Darlene Hayes has captured the "spirit" of a cocktail made with cider in her book aptly called "Cider Cocktails, Another Bit of the Apple" (2015) Spotted Cat Press, Canada. The 2nd Edition of this book is now available! Go to this link to purchase!

2nd edition of Cider Cocktails

The book provides an historical overview of classic drinks like the Stone Fence, a recipe coalling for bourbon with a semi dry cider. Darlene and I chatted as she mixed both a Stone Fence and the Gin Gin Jenny (gin, ginger cider and lime) when we met up in Portland Oregon at CiderCon in 2016.

Darlene made us the perfect cocktails for a good cider chat…or it is cider cocktail chat?

Cider Cocktails also has a chapter of recipes for Appetizers to serve with your cocktail. And, at the end of the book she included, "Basic Recipes". Here you will find her take on Simple Syrup, a syrup used in making cocktails and Crème fraîche, a spread used in many a yummy appetizer and more.

This book is a recommended read for anyone taking the United States Association of Cider Maker "Level 1 Course in Cider Certification. And with all the new cider bars opening around the country, most notable The Northman in Chicago expected to open later this month – this is a great handbook for bartenders, cider bar owners and anyone looking to expand their cider horizons.

A slice of orange peal is squeezed into the Stone Fence cider cocktail Contact info for Darlene Hayes

• Website: allintocider.com/

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Cider Bars
  • Wassail, New York City – now closed
  • The Northman, Chicago – the original location is closed but there is now the Northman Beer and Cider Garden which is open once the weather in Chicago gets nice! It is along the River
• Distilleries
  • Spirit Works Distillery, California
  • Neversink Spirits, New York
  • Clear Creek Distillery, Portland Oregon now known as Hood River Distillery
  • Apple Country Spirits, New York – now known as Rootstock Cider & Spirits
  • Saint George Distillery, California
  • Sonoma County Distilling Company, California

Getting the right blend or single variety juice to make the perfect cider is part of every business plan for cideries both in the startup phase an ongoing. If you are not growing your own orchard, getting apple juice could be a real constraint – Thus these chats with two juice suppliers.

In this Cider Chat on Juice Merchants

At the 2016 CiderCon , two chats were recorded with global suppliers of juice. We wanted to find out what is happening both in the US and globally.

• Are orchards seeing the current cider market vital enough to plant trees that produce cider apples?
• What are the steps one would have to take to get juice from orchard to your cidery whether it is located in a tucked away island or in the middle of a city?

You may find the answers in this episode surprising. And may they charge you up enough to let your local orchards or large apple suppliers know that

"Yes we want cider apple juice!

What are the top 5-6 varieties grown in Washington State? or 85% of the market.

• Red Delicious
• Galas
• Fuji
• Granny
• Honey Crisp
• Golden Delicious

They Got Juice in the Global Market Contact for US supplier Fruit Smart

• Website: https://www.fruitsmart.com/

Contact for UK supplier Kiril- Mischeff

• Website: Kiril- Mischeff Group contact: Ian Marlow
• switchboard: 44(0)7718 519 113
• Brook Farm Dorton Ayelsbury
• Bucks HP18 9NQ

French varieties available via Kiril Mischeff

• Kermerrien
• Douce Moen
• Douce Coetliyen
• Bedann
• Marie Menard
• Frequin Rouge
• Benet Rougue

Culinary

• Gala
• Granny
• Gloden
• Fuji

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Food Unwrapped
• Gluten free snacks by Vivian Lee at Lucky Rabbit Snacks is no longer in business as of 2025

Vivian Lee of Luck Rabbit Snacks a gluten free snack option and Ria of Cider Chat

John Bunker "Friend of Apples"

John Bunker in this chat helps to trace the lineage in the US between cider apples and cidermakers. If you ever doubted whether you are on the right track with your cidermaking skills, Have no fear. Not only does John affirm even one's most basic cidermaking skills, but our basic love of the apple.

When I asked John what he would give himself as a job titled, he thought for a moment and then said, "Friend of Apples." That friendship is helping apples throughout the US find their rightful place in history as they get identified one apple at a time.

Cammy Watts and John Bunker John Bunker on making your own cider

Take a clue from John when tasting your next cider or thinking about fermenting apple juice for the first time, "When it comes to my own cider, I'm just happy if I like it. Cuz it's a long way till next year. All I want is to like it, I don't care if you like it. I just want to like it."

John founded Fedco Trees in Main, is involved with the Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association (MOFGA) and the Out on the Limb Heritage Apple CSA.

John Bunker's Books

He authored of Not Far From the Tree and The Art of Apple Detection

We chat about Fedco's early history with cider apples. How he met with Steve Wood of Farnum Hill Cider and Farnum Hills contribution to the cider tree nursery. It is a story of cider apple lineage in the US.

John discusses meeting with Steve Wood of Farnum Hill Cider and Terry Maloney of West County Cider.

You will crave a taste of West County Cider's Redfield Cider after listening to John chat about the history of this apple variety and how Terry Maloney's himself decided to experiment with the Redfield after a trip to Geneva.

John says, "The Redfield is not an heirloom apple. It originated in 1940 or so. Most of our traditional American varieties are seedlings of unknown parentage."

What about American cidermakers and what he suspects is happening and will continue to happen? John says, "There are so many [US] cidermakers that don't know about the English bitter sweets and may never know about them."

That he considers is a good thing and not something a cidermaker should worry so much about.

Contact John

Super Chilly Farm website

Location: 167 Turner Mill Pond Road

Palermo, Maine 04354

Email: [email protected]

Want to hear more about West County Cider?

Listen to Ep 002 Field Maloney, West County Cider, Massachusetts

Notable mentions in this chat, that you might like to follow up on.

• Common Ground Fair in Maine, this is sponsored by MOGFA
• CiderDays, Massachusetts held the first weekend of November every year. 2015 was its 21st year.
• Claude Jolicoeur The New Cider Maker Hand Book

Tom Burford Apple Historian in the US

Just a few of the Apple Varieties mention

• Harrison
• Harrison Virgina Crab
• Redfield click here to see what Fedco offers
• Is a cross between Wolf River and a Russian variety, brought back to the US by a professor for North Dakota named Niels Hanson
• Niedzwetzkyana considered a red fleshed apples – inside the apple. Most apples we eat are white fleshed apples.
• Ben Davis

At Freedom Farm, cider is on! Chris Jackson who is new to cidermaking has an enthusiasm for fermenting that is contagious. At the Farm his family is working towards sustainability and he is blogging about it all, via his website FreedomFarmTV.

Chris had shared his photos of his homemade Peach Cider on Twitter and I liked him immediately. Finding out that he was blogging about grafting fruit trees made it a natural fit for Cider Chat.

In this Cider Chat

• Different types of grafts one could do to get a different variety of apples on an apple tree.

Chris Jackson Grafting methods discussed:

• Cleft Grafting involved cutting off a tree at its trunk.
• Whip Grafting is less dramatic, as you would only cut off a limb the width of one's pinky and then add on a new variety of your choosing.
• Grafting allows cidermakers to diversify an orchard quickly – say a 3 year period, versus waiting for a sapling to fruit.
• More on a number of different grafting methods via wikipedia

Contact Chris Jackson at Freedom Farm TV

• YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@freedomfarmtv2980

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Dave Wilson's Nursery – How to graft a fruit tree

Kurant Cider co-owner and head cidermaker, Joe Getz's business is expanding, just after one year into producing cider commercially in the eastern region of Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia. Besides making cider at Kurant, Joe is also the Vice President of the Pennsylvania Cider Guild, the commonwealth's organizing body for cider producers and apple growers in PA.

Cidermaker Joe Gertz Kurant Cider In this Cider Chat

• Kurant ciders and why he calls them untypical American style ciders.
• Finding a home for a cider via one brewery to another.
  • A new move to Perkasie, Pennsylvania into Free-Will Brewing Company is the newest location.
• In 2016, Kurant is looking to ferment 1500-2000 gallons of cider. They source local juice and are able to make cider year-round. Find their cider on draft.

Kurant Ciders, on draft

• Daily 5.5%
• Earth 5.5%
• Bees 5.5%
• Tropic 5.5%
• Farm 5.5%
• Cafe' 3.5%
• Spice 5.5%

Contact info for Kurant Cider

• Kurant Cider has closed its doors

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Pennsylvania Cider Guild website
• http://www.rowanasherwinery.com/
• ReAnimatro Coffee in Philidelphia, Pennsylvania
• Anthem Cider, Oregon – under new management and location
• Millstone Cider, Maryland – no longer open
• Ace Cider, California – under new management
• Maui Cider Company, Maui – no longer open
• Free Will Brewing Co.
• Teresa's Cafe – Wayne Pennsylvania that Joe mentioned has a good selection of cider taps.
• Oregon Country Fair

Mechanical engineer and entrepreneur Ryal Schallenberger is helping cidermakers throughout the northwest by providing a mobile juicing service. He drives truck and trailer right in to the orchard and in 30-minutes is ready to start moving through 3 bins of apples an hour with a yield of 150-200 gallons of juice per hour.

Northwest Mobile Juicing offered services to cidermakers for the first time in 2015 and there is no looking back.

Ryal The Road to Mobil Juicing

In 2016, Ryal is looking at expanding his portfolio of juicing trailers. This will require dedicated trailers in Washington, Oregon, Idaho and a fixed location in Montana.

Ryal's truck circa 2016 In this Cider Chat

• Ryal explains the juicing process from start to finish including the cost for starting up such a service.
• How it all began – It most likely started in Germany with innovation from the likes of Kreuzmayr

Northwest Mobile Juicing provides:

• Pressing
• Pasteurization
• Packaging

Inside a Mobile Juicing trailer Contact for Northwest Mobile Juicing

• Website: http://nwmobilejuicing.com/
  • Tell Ryal you heard his story on Cider Chat!

Mentioned in this Cider Chat

• Montana CiderWorks
• Budwood Coop
• Juicing Systems in Canada is the official rep for the Austrian company Kreuzmayr where the mobile juicing equipment is made in Germany.

Who is Randall Grahm

Randall Grahm has been rocking the world of winemaking for over 30 years. He began commercially selling wine under the Bonny Doon Vineyard label in 1983 when he opened the winery's tasting room in the hills north of Santa Cruz, California in the village of Boony Doon. He authored Been Doon So Long : A Randall Grahm Vinthology (2012), and has the title and responsibilities of being President for life of Bonny Doon Vineyard. He is a four time winner of the James Beard Award.

Randall Grahm Randall's accomplishments in the world of wine are as unique as the man himself.

• Aptly titled the Rhone Ranger of California for his work with Rhone varietals. • Pioneered the use of screw on caps on premium wines.

Read the most recent list of Randall Grahm's accolades. In this Cider Chat

While I have long enjoyed Bonny Doon wines, I was in Santa Cruz to chat with Randall about Bonny Doon cider • 2013 Querry – 750ml is made with pear, apple and quince • Winter Nélis Sparkling Perry

Both of the above product are a bit past their time, though a bottle here or there may show up. If so do expect it to be a bit oxidized by 2024.

A Grahm Update 2022

Grahm sold the Bonny Doon Brand in 2020.

Listen to the most interview with Randall Grahm with Cider Chat on Episode188 recorded in 2019 at his new endeavor Popeluchum

Follow Randall Grahm

FaceBook: Popelechum (pronounced "Poh-puh-lou-shoom")

• a 400-acre Estate, located just outside of the town of San Juan Bautista, CA.
• Randall Grahm on Twitter @randallgrahm

Contact Bonny Doon Vineyard Winery and Office

• Website: https://www.bonnydoonvineyard.com/
• Twitter: @BonnyDoonVineyd

Mentions in this chat with Randall

• Eric Bordelet cidermaker inspiring Randall's palate
• Didier Dagueneau, mentored Eric Bordelet
• Oregon based US Department of Ag- Germplasm Repository
• What is a medlar? And what does it mean to blet a medlar?
• Biodynamic Farming

Wooden barrels are so 2014. What is old is new again as Castle Hill Cider has brought to the states an ancient fermenting vessel that was used for over 7000 years. Qvevri or Kvevri, as it is called on this Virginia estate, is best known to winemakers in the Georgia Republic.

Traditional Methods for Fermentation from the Georgia Republic

Where is the Georgia Republic? It is in Europe and lies to the south of Russia and to the north of Turkey.The Georgia Republic has a sprawling cave monastery from the 12th century called Vardzia and a wine growing region of Kakheti. Find out more about Georgia's Qvevri traditional winemaking.

The Castle Hill Cider Kvervi upon arrived! In this Cider Chat with Cellar Master Geoff Robinson

• Castle Hill Cider imported 9 kvevris from the Georgia Republic
• Only one broke in transit
• A Kvevri ranges in size from 250 gallons to 60 and 75 gallons
• These clay pots are buried in the ground with only the opening accessible via a small chimney.
• A Honey glaze is often used inside the pot

Castle Hill Cider Makers Geoff and Stuart Madany Placing the Castle Hill Cider Kvervi Kvervi ready to be buried

Contact Info for Castle Hill

• Website: https://www.castlehillcider.com/
• Address: 6065 Turkey Sag Road, Keswick, Virginia USA 22947

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Find out more about the Albemarle Pippin Apple via Thomas Jefferson Monticello
• Link to Cider Guide and head to Virginia and follow the Cider Trail?
• The Cider Swag Contest is open till January 16, 2016.

Castle Hill Update:

Both Geoff and Stuart have moved on from the cidery and as of 2025 the Kvevris at this site are not being used currently to make cider.

Utrecht cider importer Margot Sanderse brings in ciders from the UK and Wales via her mobile bar and online shop Het Ciderhuis. She is an entrepreneur who is touting cider to the Dutch and slowly helping transform their palate.

Margot Sanderse | Het Ciderhuis

Utrecht is between 30-40 minutes from Amsterdam, and is a bustling arts city.

Bars that serve cider mentioned by Margot

• Cafe de Zaak
• Cafe de Rat

Den Haag a.k.a. The Hague

Den Haag is best known for its International Court of Justice, and because of the presence of so many international embassies, it is also a hot spot for food and drinks.

Margot recommended in The Hague the following 2 bars serving cider.

• Fiddler
• Cafe de Paas

Contact Info Margot Sanderse |Het Ciderhuis

• Website: https://www.hetciderhuis.nl/over-het-ciderhuis/interviews-artikelen-het-ciderhuis/interviews-artikelen-het-ciderhuis-2/

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• The Club de Keet where this recording took place is no longer open – Massi is still in Amsterdam and the big hare that was this dive bars namesake: was named Keet
• Find out more about Beer Cider

Leonard Koningswik cidermaker of Beer Cider CIDER Act passed December 18, 2015

Cider Investment and Development through Excise Tax Reduction (CIDER) Act (H.R. 600) was introduced by Representatives Earl Blumenauer democratic and Chris Collins. a republican from New York state's 27th congressional district and democratic Senator Charles Schumer of New York who sponsored the CIDER Act (S. 1459).

Which goes to show you that Cider unites both major parties in the US. Woot woot! And we all know that a good chat is time well spent.

Do know that this is a Tax legislation thing – that business minded people work towards to help reduce the tax burden.

Prior to this Act cider that was carbonated by the cidermaker or naturally (as in bottle conditioned) could be taxed at the champagne rate of 3.30 or 3/40/gallon if the carbonation level was too high.

Yikes! Imagine being a small batch cidermaker and finding the most delicious cider that you have ever made is now going to be so expensive that only us nerd cider drinkers will buy it.

so the CIDER Act has increased the carbonation level for hard cider! woot woot

And it now includes pears in the definition of "hard cider"

I am not sure what the pears think about that – I think – apple trees and pear tree could give a hoot about our human taxations.

And now cider is has boosted it's alcohol by volume (ABV) to surpass 7%. It now has the range of at least 1% and 8.5%. Lets just hope the big chemical companies don't get involved and start making apple tree hybrids on steroids that boost sugar content.

In all it was a boom for cider in the US.

Personally, I like both still and sparkling cider. It is all good. And quite exciting.

It is now up to the cidermakers to run with this new Act and continue to grow as an industry overall And for cider consumers to let the cidermakers know what you want. I am sure as the new year and years to come we will be re-visiting his topic. In all it is a new playing field and quite exciting.