Summary 2024 is a general election year in the UK and David and Naomi wanted to have a conversation about the criminal justice system because the topic receives so little attention elsewhere. However the topic is so wide and complex that we found that we could only begin and hope to return to the subject again. The conversation explores the ethical considerations around imprisonment and the need for more investment in the prison service. The speakers discuss their experiences working in prisons and the challenges they faced. They highlight the importance of addressing trauma and providing a supportive environment for rehabilitation. They also discuss the limitations and flaws of the current prison system, including the lack of resources and support for released prisoners. The conversation raises questions about the effectiveness and ethics of imprisonment as a form of punishment.