Student affairs professionals often encounter interim leadership positions, which can significantly impact a university's trajectory. This podcast episode from "Student Affairs Voices from the Field" explores the nuances of interim leadership with insights from Dr. Jen Myers Pickard and Dr. Leanna Fenneberg.

What is Interim Leadership?

Interim leadership occurs when a temporary leader steps into a role during a transition period at a higher education institution. As Dr. Jen Myers Pickard explains, there are typically two types of interim leaders: those who come from within the institution and those brought in externally. Internal interims can offer continuity, while external interims bring fresh perspectives and prevent internal disruption.

The Purpose of Interim Leadership

Dr. Pickard and Dr. Fenneberg articulate the goals of interim leadership. Universities may choose interim leaders to maintain momentum on strategic priorities, provide specific expertise, or mentor existing teams. Interim roles can also facilitate necessary changes without long-term commitments, allowing institutions to address pressing issues such as restructuring or leadership challenges.

Inherent Challenges and Considerations

For many institutions, the decision to bring in an external interim leader raises questions about its impact on current staff. Concerns exist that an interim leader might delay significant initiatives or focus solely on maintaining existing processes. Dr. Fenneberg shares her experiences, emphasizing the importance of addressing such concerns through active engagement and transparent communication with all campus stakeholders.

Transitioning from Interim to Permanent Roles

Some interim leaders see their positions as stepping stones to permanent roles. Dr. Pickard advises having candid conversations with supervisors about potential long-term opportunities. Understanding the contractual terms of interim placements can also influence whether one can be considered for the permanent position.

Deciding on Interim Leadership

Choosing interim leadership as a career step can be strategic. Dr. Fenneberg discusses her decision-making process, which involved balancing the need for employment and her commitment to family. She underscores the role of networking in finding interim positions, while Dr. Pickard emphasizes reaching out to placement firms to explore opportunities.

Embracing the Interim Role Fully

Dr. Fenneberg and Dr. Pickard agree on the importance of fully engaging with interim roles. By adopting a proactive approach, interim leaders can make meaningful contributions to their institutions. This includes mentoring teams, sustaining strategic initiatives, and exploring opportunities for personal and professional growth.

Interim leadership in higher education presents unique challenges and opportunities for growth. By engaging fully and understanding the context of their roles, interim leaders can significantly impact their institutions while setting the stage for future success.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed professionals wherever you happen to be. This is season 12, continuing our journey through the past, present, and future of student affairs. I'm Dr. Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on essay voices, we're exploring the topic of interim leadership with two wonderful colleagues, Dr. Jen Myers Pickard and Dr. Leanna Fenneberg. Based in Tucson, Arizona, Jen brought her skills to Whit Kiefer after nearly two decades in academic and student affairs roles at AAU institutions, first at Northwest University and the University of Maryland and later at the University of Arizona. Jen has a broad insight into the inner workings of higher education institutions and is driven by passion to find the right leaders for specific client needs. Her search expertise includes presidents, provosts, deans, and leaders in a wide variety of administrative units, including student affairs, student success, research and innovation, and finance and administration.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:05]: Jen joined Whitkey for after nineteen years in higher ed, most recently serving as the AVP for divisional initiatives and planning within student affairs and enrollment management, academic initiatives, and student success at the University of Arizona. In this role, Jen functioned in a chief of staff capacity, extending the vision and capacity of senior institutional leadership through work on change management initiatives, executive level talent acquisition, oversight of institution wide assessment efforts, and leadership of faculty student engagement and success programs. Jen is very proud of her leadership and administrative roots within the field of education. As such, she's deeply committed to the cultivation of emerging higher education professionals, continuing to develop and facilitate leadership institutes and conference sessions, and being active in NASPA along with other higher ed organizations. Additionally, Jen joined the board of the International School of Tucson in January of twenty twenty and was named board chair in June of twenty twenty one. Dr. Leanna Fenneberg is a recent NASPA pillar of the profession and has dedicated over twenty five years in higher education and student affairs. Committed to advancing the potential of all students, Dr. Feeneberg's leadership focuses on diversity, equity, and inclusion, holistic student success and well-being, and the role of campus partnerships in transformational learning. A servant leader, colleagues describe her as a source of energy and purpose, driven by integrity, care for others, and an unwavering work ethic.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:19]: Dr. Fenenberg serves as senior vice president for student life at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, following a career spanning functional areas, including housing, first year experience, and student success, earning early recognition as an astounding first year student advocate by the National Resource Center for the First Year Experience and Students in Transition. NASPA has been a primary professional place of inspiration and connection. She's served on the NASPA board of directors as director of knowledge communities, as cochair for the Women in Student Affairs WISA, and the student affairs partnering with academic affairs SAPA knowledge communities, and recently the director for the Alice Manaker Symposium. Her expertise is evidenced through peer reviewed articles, countless national presentations, and instruction in masters and Dr.al programs in higher education administration. As a first generation college graduate, Dr. Fenneberg holds a PhD in higher education administration from Saint Louis University, an MEd in student personnel services from the University of South Carolina, and a BA in communication from Marquette. She's a devoted wife, mom of two sons, and two cats, and finds joy in travel and reading. Welcome to Essay Voices. Today, we have Jen.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:20]: Hi, Jen. Hi. How are you? And Liana. Hello. So glad to be featuring you both, and I love it when we get to do episodes where we can get two perspectives on the same topic, which is what we're gonna be doing today, talking all about interim leadership placement processes in higher ed leadership. I think this is an area of higher ed leadership that has a little bit of mysticism around it. So I'm looking forward to demystifying how we get into interim leadership placements through formalities and search versus maybe informal interim placements and what it's like to be in that interim seat, which I know has both pros and cons to it. But before we get into the topic, we'd love to get to know you both a little bit better.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:00]: So, Jen, let's start with you. How did you get to your current seat at WKiefer?

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:04:03]: Sure. Very happy to share that briefly. Well, so my name is Jen Pickard. It's great to see you all or be with you here today. I actually came to my seat at Wake Kiefer via twenty years of being on campuses. So I actually started in sort of the in the traditional student affairs manner, thought I wanted to be a Dean of Students when I grew up, was heading into my Dr.ate, doing all that work in assessment and research actually at that time, and then moved into a position at the University of Arizona. It was a chief of of staff type of role at a very large division that oversaw student affairs, enrollment management, academic initiatives, and student success. Say that fast a few times.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:04:39]: And it was a great and wonderful role because I with Kiefer, just a very right moment in time, I decided to jump on the search bandwagon that was in the summer of twenty eighteen. Six and a half years later, I'm now a senior partner and the head of our student affairs practice.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:05]: And, Liana, you are in a new role right now, but you also have gone through the Kiefer process through interim placement. But how did you get to your current VPSA seat?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:05:14]: Yes. Absolutely. Hello, everyone. Liana Fetterberg. I serve as the senior vice president for student life at Duquesne University. I'm in my ninth month here on campus, so it is a newer role. I've been in student affairs for this my twenty sixth year, I start to feel old and feel I earned my gray hair. But to say this is my eighth year as a vice president.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:05:33]: And after my vice president position at Rider University was eliminated as a cost savings measure, I started a national search. And as a part of that search, ended up in an interim placement situation for one academic year before coming here to Duquesne. And, actually, I ended up getting that position kind of through relationships. So an informal route. There are certainly coordinated, placement services through WhitKiefer and others, but mine ended up through my network, through relationships where people knew that I was without a position, and there was an institution and there was an institution and colleagues that had a need and, ended up filling that role. And it was a great experience. So I look forward to this conversation.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:12]: As we move forward in this conversation, let's talk about first, what is interim leadership? What does that mean to you?

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:06:18]: Well, I think that interim leadership, people think of it from two different ways. I think the one is an interim leader who is currently serving at that institution who's been asked or tapped on the shoulder when leadership departs or there's a transition of some sort to sit in that seat for x amount of time. Sometimes that's very defined, sometimes it's not, and sometimes that leads to new job for them, and sometimes it doesn't. So there's a lot of different parameters in that way. The other kind of interim that we think about and certainly what we obviously are supporting it with Kiefer is interim leadership where the university says we definitely wanna have some sort of external person. And often, that is because they want to be able to support and make sure that internally, right, we're not we're not messing up the apple cart, if you will, by pulling someone out of their day to day role or asking them to do double duty in their role, but rather wanna bring an external person in who maybe has that experience expertise skills or or obviously will have those expertise and skills in whichever space they're in, but they're also probably bringing a different perspective, right, to the role, to the work, and to the support it. So, again, those things can have very defined parameters, or it can be something that continues to be ongoing or, you know, is renegotiated after x amount of time. So I would consider those as sort of the two kind of leadership or interim types or definition of.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:40]: I'm glad you mentioned this possibility of bringing an external leadership not to disrupt the day to day operations of what's going on internally to an institution or to a student affairs division. Because I think if you're a person who is on the receiving end of new interim leadership, it can be kind of scary. It can also be a question of, like, well, why wasn't somebody that's already at the university selected to do this role? So what are you hearing when universities come to, your agency or any other agency? Just side note, we are not sponsored by WhitKiefer. This is not an ad episode.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:08:12]: Not an ad for WhitKiefer. And I'll talk about other firms too, right, and what I know of them as well where I can. Yeah. We're just glad to have Jen's expertise on the topic. So I just wanna make sure we put that out there. But I am wondering what you hear from universities when the decision is made to bring in that external perspective rather than, promote someone within for that interim period of time. Right. So I think that so we actually I did some looking in some of our Wake Kiefer team.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:08:37]: I asked in preparation for this to do a little of a deep dive, some of the motivations around interim leadership, etcetera, etcetera. And some of the things that they pulled back that we've learned from very much from our presidential placements in this space, but also this applies to other vice presidential levels or even other places in the organization. A lot of times why they're bringing folks in from outside is, you know, they really want to keep the momentum of key strategic priorities moving, right, in operational goals, objectives, things like that. Also, wanna pull in specific expertise areas. So, for example, if there's a division who is really trying to lean in on health and wellness initiatives, right, they might decide to find an interim who really has specialty or an expertise and in that space to try and do that work and help move the division forward in that work. Sometimes it is the way that it's helped out. It's helping to mentor other leaders on campus. And so they want this person as a really strong advocate for these individuals, for the team, especially in helping them prepare for their next permanent leader.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:09:46]: I've definitely seen that happening. And then sometimes it's around the making and deploying change engine. Right? Who can make some tough decisions, who can do an analysis of the space, and maybe they might have them making some of those initial changes and different things that have to happen. That might be a structural change. It might be leadership change or or team change or or rearrangement there and so on. But, yeah, I think those are some of the major areas that we definitely see. I don't know, Liana, if there's other things that you've sort of heard and seen in your time now engaging more in the interim in that.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:10:18]: Honestly, Jen, that was a great recap of the different categories of why institutions that I'm hearing are considering or implementing interim leaders. I'll just add kind of a personal caveat based on my situation. So I was a vice provost for student life at Creighton University in Omaha, Nebraska. And it was a very unique and sensitive situation in that their incumbent vice president was battling cancer and was undergoing an intensive cancer treatment. And they needed an on the ground leader to help with healing as well as the day to day work and leadership. And so there may be more personalized situations as well as kind of the institutional structural situations that folks who are making decisions are navigating. And then it was really tragic that she and this is Tanya Weingard, beloved student affairs leader, passed away within two months of my time on campus. And so in this instance, you know, a presence of an outside leader to be able to attend to the day to day as well as attend to the emotions and the realities of the community and the staff and students during a difficult time in addition to doing the work, I think was a really astute decision for them and added some additional support to the community.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:32]: Leah, you moved into an extremely sensitive situation. And in not only approaching a position from the perspective of you're not their permanent leader, but also you're someone who has to provide care quickly for a staff that you don't know well. How did you approach that process?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:11:49]: Well, thanks. I hope I did it well, Jill. But I'll tell you, I reread my email that I first sent to all of the staff in student life before I had arrived on campus. And so I wanted to do an introduction, like, hey. You just heard I'm arriving on your campus in a minute. This is who I am and and what I hope to achieve while I'm there. And I led in that. So in the it was a Jesuit Catholic campus, and part of the values tradition is cura personalis, care for the person.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:12:15]: And so, you know, I led with that and said, you know, my yes. I'll be doing some work. I'll be doing some things. I'll be making some decisions. You know? But my primary goal of being there is cura personalis, care for staff, care for students. Like, that's what I'm gonna lead with, and that's what we need to do to heal the community, to come together as a community, and continue to do the work with students in mind.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:36]: Knowing that you were only going to be there for this one year placement, how did you approach the work differently than what you're doing at your current institution where you know that you're going to be in that seat for a little while?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:12:47]: Yeah. Well, it's interesting, Jill. I feel like the approach, at least for me, is not that different, but the timing and the interactions are different. So, you know, you in any organization, any leader, you still wanna build the relationships, identify, you know, the needs and priorities and goals, and then be able to, like, leverage the group towards working towards those goals. Right? If we're looking at leadership super simplistically. Simplistically. So when you're in an interim role, I feel like you just have a shorter time frame to do that. And so let me give you an example.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:13:21]: You know, when I came in, there was a need to establish a strategic plan, but, of course, that wasn't my role. My my role wasn't to envision the future of the organization. So I worked with the group to identify more immediate needs and opportunities and priorities, and then we worked on an operational plan so we could still document, like, these are the things we're working towards as a group, but holding off the strategy for the future leader and setting the stage that the future leader still has the opportunity and responsibility to do that with the group. So working quickly to identify what can we do this year, what can we do during x time frame that will meaningfully move the organization forward while being conscious of there's still a future to be defined. I do think there are sensitivities to being an interim leader in general, sensitivities of I'm not the in group. I'm the person on the outside coming in right and not wanting to push too far, but being able to provide that external expertise and perspective and a mirror to people to say, did you know that you're doing this or did you know that other institutions are doing it this way? And being able to question things in a respectful, and appropriate way. So I think that that is something a sensitivity, if you will, in the approach to leadership. And then that was only exemplified even more during a sensitive emotional situation that I was facing.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:42]: That's really great advice, Lianna, that if you're coming in and saying, hey. You know what? My time is x amount of months or x amount of years, and what is achievable and realistic in a one year time frame in student affairs is really a fascinating question because a lot of us don't necessarily approach the work that way, right, we're looking at really long term trajectories, we're looking at three or five years, or we're looking semester by semester, or moment by moment, but it's it's I don't think that common in student affairs from a strategic planning perspective to say what is this very specific time limit, and this limitation providing us both an opportunity and a challenge to do? I appreciate that approach.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:15:18]: I was just thinking as well that the role of an interim, you have this opportunity to kind of be an external reviewer or a consultant in a sense that you're there for a period and you have fresh eyes towards everything. And so while you're you're trying to identify what work can be done or should be done at the time, for me, I was also kind of continuously having a running list of recommendations for the future. What are my observations? What are strengths? What are opportunities? What are recommendations for the future that I would hand off both to my provost who is the supervisor as well as the next leader so that all my observations could still be seen or heard, if you will.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:15:55]: What I was gonna add is so depending on, you know, who your supervisor is, right, if it's the president or the provost, and what they're hoping for, whether you are an internal interim or an external interim, that's really gonna also guide what you're doing and how you're approaching. I imagine Lianna had a conversation prior but probably a lot of conversation around what it was they were hoping you were there to do. Obviously, you were there to care for the team and so on and so forth. But I think one of the biggest things that people get nervous about, right, and I think the limited data or research or what we hear on the street, right, bears this out, is that folks get nervous and an interim is gonna come in and basically just be a placeholder. Right? They're gonna continue to just keep the trains running on time, help make decisions, do those different things, which is a very important thing to do. Don't get me wrong. Right? But it is like, are you the one who ultimately is, you know, is it a situation if we are keeping the seat warm? Are we delaying those bigger, more strategic priorities, those big decisions, and so on? Are we just delaying that, and that's what frustrates people, makes them nervous about an interim position at all? Is that it? Or are you what I kinda call, like, the full steam ahead kind of interim? And Liana, in it sounds like her charge was sort of be to be a little bit of the in the middle there of that. And then doing that extra work, which I a % agree, is as an external in particular, you become that consultant and someone who's offering an analysis for the next future leader as well as the supervisors.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:17:29]: Right? But that idea of of am I am I keeping keep am I a placeholder with a very specific for a very specific reason in helping the team to continue forward and really be successful versus a full team ahead leader. And I think that that is a spot in particular for those who are internal interims. They stop and they say, what is being asked of me? And and sometimes they ask, and then they're still not sure if they really truly have the blessing to go forward in that manner. And I was just, you know, having a conversation with somebody the other day where they gave advice to the interim person to make sure just do it, like, do the job, do the job. If they told you to do the job, go do the job as if it is your permanent role. And that's where people become happiest with the interim placement can be particularly in those moments, right, where it's like we've still continue to feel that we're full steam ahead. We know not everything can be that way, but we're trying to really make continuous gains and so on in that respect. So I

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:34]: think that also brings up kind of this third element of interim leadership, which is some interim leaders are, in fact, auditioning for the first for the full time position as they're in their interim process. Some of them know that they are, and some of them don't. So, Jen, in particular, I'm wondering if you have any observations or advice for those that are hoping to transition from that interim to the permanent position, whether it be through competitive search or placement.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:19:00]: I think number one is having a very honest and upfront conversation with the hiring authority, right, or the boss to make at the very beginning, to make sure that you know, will you be considered for that role, should you decide to raise your hand for it? And when I say should you will you be considered, I mean truly, truly considered for that opportunity. Right? That is sometimes a very hard answer for a sitting leader to give. They give the standard, absolutely, I would welcome your engagement in this process when let's just be really honest, there are times where they're saying that out loud and at the end of the day, they probably really don't mean that. And so it's important, I think, to revisit that conversation throughout the process and to be as transparent as you can be with that leader, particularly if your mind shifts. Right? Like, I've seen a lot of folks where they'll say, initially, I have zero interest in doing this job full time. I absolutely do not wanna be the senior student affairs officer or whatever the role is. Right? And so I wanna go back to my gig. And then they get a taste of the gig, and they're like, actually, I do wanna do that.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:20:14]: Right? And so as your mind changes and shifts and so on, again, transparency there with your leader and then continuing to know, is this something that you actually think that you might seriously consider me for? Because there's a it's a lot to think about. I mean, as folks are beginning to really enjoy you as a leader, if something were to shift and change where maybe you didn't think you were gonna do it and now you are gonna go for it. But for whatever reason, leadership might have other needs where they do need an external person even though you're doing an amazing job. You wanna be able to think about how are you gonna exit out of this with grace and a plow and all those good things. So, yeah, that I think is my best advice in that seat. But I'm always pleasantly surprised at how many individuals come back and say, I didn't think I wanted to do this and now I love it. It's sort of like our faculty colleagues where they're like, I'm happy doing my research and I love it and all of a sudden they get bit by the administrative bug and they're like, I had no no idea I was really good at this. Right? So I always encourage people to take the opportunity.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:21:17]: It's a new, interesting, wonderful thing. Anytime you get to even if it's only temporary to pull in another area or layer or role or whatever it might be into your portfolio and expertise.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:21:28]: One additional thing to consider, Jen, might be that some placement search firms also prohibit you from being a candidate for the position. So as as you said, like, connecting with your supervisor, am I a viable candidate to be considered? Also, if you're doing an interim placement situation that you'll wanna know whether you could be a candidate for it or not.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:21:48]: Exactly. Really great point there. Yeah. There's some of the firms, the placement firms out there who do interims. You're exactly right. They were require they actually it's part of the contract, right, that you are not going to be considered because there's pros to that. Right? There's pros to that sort of framework framing for them and so on. And then there's others where and Whitkiefer is one of the others where if you want to be considered for the role, it is possible that you could be considered within our our framing and contracts work.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:22:15]: So, yeah, it's a that's a really great point, Liana. Thank you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:18]: Liana, can you talk a little bit about the process of deciding that interim leadership was the right next step in your career as opposed to launching full into a permanent job search?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:22:29]: Oh, sure. Thank you. Well, as I mentioned, my position was eliminated, so I was on the market for any kind of job that would pay me and use my skills. So I cast a very wide net in considering I connected with a couple of search firms for placement opportunities and considered, like, should I do an interim role as well as launched straight into a full time job search. So I was kinda doing both simultaneously and considering and weighing all my possibilities. And at the time that interim placement that I accepted at Creighton surfaced, I was very in much in the infancy of a national search. So I had barely had any applications out, but knew that my primary goal as a mother of a teenage boy was to have full time employment as soon as possible and figure out what was going on with my life, if my family was relocating, everything. So full time employment was definitely what I was heading for, what my primary goal was, but the interim option was intriguing twofold.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:23:25]: One, in that, you know, I would be employed immediately and be able to, you know, pour into an institution after kind of a heartbreak from one. And two, I was really drawn to the institution and to my colleagues. So I had a personal connection through the Jesuit network, to Creighton University and the staff there. And so knowing that there was a need where it felt like my personality and my skills and my background were a fit, kind of felt like a compelling heart tug, if you will, to that position. So the biggest, decision for me was I would have to relocate and leave my family, for the period of the interim placement. I originally communicated with them that I was comfortable with a six month placement because I didn't wanna thwart my long term job search by putting off potential positions and searches that would be hiring during the academic year. And then all the stars aligned in terms of my search and the needs on the campus that I was able to stay for the academic year, and I think that that was rewarding and fulfilling both for me and for the campus to be able to see that through for the year. So the hardest part was, you know, deciding to leave my family and navigating and negotiating that.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:24:36]: One of the biggest one of the biggest needs that the campus had or at least how I perceived it was to have presence. They had a leader who was sick and was working virtually for about the year prior. And so I knew that physical presence was really important to the role and what would what I would bring for the year. And so I didn't go home a lot. I didn't work virtually at all except over Christmas break. So I knew that that was a commitment that I was gonna be on campus and be present most of the time. And I spent, say, three to four days a month traveling back home to my family. So that was the biggest challenge of, making the decision and navigating.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:25:12]: But I had a supportive family and supportive campus, and it all worked out.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:16]: And I have to give a shout out to Creighton University just because it's a namesake of my family. We have no affiliation with the university, but many of us have purchased things things from the bookstore over the years.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:25:29]: Right. With your name.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:31]: Yeah. I got my mom a shirt that says Creighton Mom. She loves it. So

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:25:33]: But it's adorable.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:37]: Leanna, you mentioned not being able to travel home. But, Jen, I'm aware that a lot of interim placement contracts do afford going home on the regular basis as part of the agreement for the position. Can you tell us what that typically looks like?

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:25:50]: You know, I don't know all the details of that, to be honest, what that would look like. And, honestly, what I was thinking of was that I think it's negotiated as Leanna was saying as she was talking, like, I was thinking about it. I'm like, it's really negotiated on a situation by situation basis. Like, there are some interims where they're that they maybe don't need as much active participation. So there's more of a hybrid model in place. There are some just like Liana's where it's like, we need that person to be there that is very, very important, as part of it and so on. So it really is based on the current needs of that institution, what they're willing to negotiate or not negotiate. The other thing I that caught my attention when Liana was speaking was saying the time of the engagement.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:26:39]: And so there was, like you said, six months, and I'm gonna make sure during that time, like, I'm not out searching. So dependent on and I think most of the ones that are negotiated within a firm probably are not hoping you're not gonna be out there looking simultaneously because you've made this commitment. But if you go and make that, have that connection point and do the conversation on a on a one on one basis, right, without the support of a firm, they might, you know, be fully in favor of saying go ahead and continue your search and we will be fully supportive and you can, you know, assuming you're doing great work here, we're gonna put you on the reference list, and we're happy to do that for you and so on. So, right, it just depends on what the needs of that institution are, the length of it, and so on, and and the type of leader that they're looking for, what they may or may not be able to negotiate for the particular circumstance. And I think based on Leanna and I's conversations with other colleagues, there's no one way to do it in every again, every institution is very different.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:42]: So let's ask the big question, which is how do I find an interim placement if I think that might be right for me? Liana, you mentioned yours was kind of networking and word-of-mouth, and we've talked that there are some formal opportunities to throw your name in. But where do I even begin to look?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:27:56]: I'm happy to start with the, networking approach because I also have some colleagues who are doing the same thing right now in similar situations, and they're just, you know, leveraging their network and saying, hey. I'm it's almost like on LinkedIn, open to work. Whatever that is within your close circle and or more broadly on social media to own your narrative and and tell people what you're open to and what you're looking for and leverage your network to find opportunities. And so that's how I found my opportunity. And, again, I have another colleague who just got placed in an interim role similarly. So, I think that that's certainly one informal or or, more personalized way outside of a search firm, but Jen can probably highlight that strategy.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:28:37]: Yeah. So as far as working with firms who do placement, like, the names the the name that most people know is the registry in this space, but then, obviously, Whit Kiefer is working in this area too. And, again, different firms approach it in different ways as far as, like, will you be available to apply for the role long haul or not. Right? So different people because of that framing will will maybe go to different firms at different times because of just where their career is and what they wanna do. But for us, and and I know for the registry, right, it's a matter of simply reaching out and looking for the interim space and saying, I wanna be a part of your interim pool, if you will. At Wake Kiefer, often I'll have colleagues reach out and say, hey, I'm thinking of this down the line or maybe not even down the line, like, right, just sort of exploring it and putting my name out there. And I'll say, well, go ahead and fill out the form online, and I'm gonna definitely let our colleagues know that, you know, we had connected about this and and what it turns into is having just an informational interview, right, where we learn more. We, as with Kiefer, learn more about you as a leader and what you're looking for.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:29:39]: And then you're sort of part of the big Rolodex, if you will, right, as to who when a certain opportunity comes our way, who might we tap on the shoulder just the same way we do in search, say, who would potentially be a really, a good match at this moment in time for this opportunity. And then that's sort of how it moves forward from there. And, usually, what happens is, right, like, the firm will identify a number of candidates who are interested, who are free during whatever the and and interested in the parameters that the institution sets up for the work. They will reach out to them and and the candidates will apply, if you will. And then often that leads to conversation with hiring authorities and so on, and they make a decision very quickly. So that's the thing is it moves rapidly, and you need to be sort of prepared to if this moment isn't the right moment, then step out of that process or say it, not not this one quite yet. Right? Because they need to make sure that those who they're tapping on the shoulder for this opportunity really are ready and able to go because it is a very, very quick and much more quick process than obviously what we do in regular search, which could be months long in process. Any final thoughts on interim leadership or things that you'd love our listeners to know

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:52]: that we haven't talked about?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:30:54]: I'll share one thing that I think I went into the role a little tentative, like, sensitive to the nature of the situation and the role, but I found over time that I regretted not going in more fully. So I feel like sometimes people feel like, well, I'm just here as an interim, and so I don't know what I should do or not do. But, really, you know, you're hired in that role for your expertise, for your role, for your leadership. Enter it fully. Enter, like, with the full heart and full work. And I'll give you an example, Jill, because I kinda felt like I was probably in 70% into student events and, like, my level of presence with students than when I would be on a permanent campus, if you will. And so I felt like, well, I don't know. These students probably don't want me to

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:38]: invest in them. I'm only here for a minute,

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:31:38]: and then I'm leaving. But after conversations with students at events, especially events with underrepresented students where they saw me there, they did value it. They I was a new face. Yes. But they valued me and my role being there and being present and fully immersed. And so, like, as I continued to get that affirmation that, like, oh, okay. I do have a presence or a role here beyond, like, my inhibitions. I think I was able to lean in a little more fully.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:32:04]: So that would be my advice if someone enters the role to just go on in and do it fully.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:32:09]: Full steam ahead. Right? Totally.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:32:10]: Yeah. I mean, I fell so in love with my campus community and with my students, with my colleagues there. You know, like, I absolutely loved my time, and I feel like I absolutely loved my time. And I feel like I fell, so much in love that it was, like, as much as you've been at a campus for five or ten or twenty years that you can do that in a quick time frame.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:32:28]: Well, and Liana is so wonderful her social media. I loved watching her in that role, really engaging. It was it was just fantastic to see her, you know, thriving in that environment and so on. So, I think my advice is very similar. Lean in. Full steam ahead. Go for it. Do it.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:32:44]: It's your JOB. Let's go. Right? You know, like, I think that it's yours. This is not you are not a placeholder. I think I think people who don't jump in and really make it their own and help to help to leave even a little bit of a mark like that that's a mistake. And I'm talking both, you know, as if you're coming externally and if you're coming, from the internal space. Use it as a time to continue to obviously share all the great knowledge and experience that you've had over your career, but also to pick up the new pieces that you've never been able to do before maybe in your previous roles. Right? We're always trying to build our own toolkit of skills and abilities and and experiences and so on.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:33:27]: So, you know, really think about those and leverage them as much as you can because why not in this moment? Right? Like, it's it's it's probably only gonna be a win at the end of the day. So I think that for sure. And then I just think also that the experience and knowledge, the way that you can help your colleagues to see something from a different lens, to experience it's okay for us to maybe change the way we've always done things, right, and bring that voice from the outside that's really inquisitive. But really, you know the answer, but you're asking questions because you're trying to help them get to the same realization about sync and that that it is okay to change. It is okay to you know, that change management and leadership part in that way, I think can be really, really impactful and empowering to, a division or, you know, a group of whoever your teammate, whatever type of interim role that you're doing. So be super inquisitive, ask a lot of questions that maybe seem obvious, but you're asking them not so much for yourself, but for them to help them as as Leanna said, to get that mirror and see themselves back and to help them improve.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:35]: Let's move into our theme questions for the season. Again, we're talking about the past, present, and future of student affairs. And I have one question on each area. So let's start with the past. What's one component of the history of student affairs that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively to let go of?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:34:51]: I'll start with the foundation of the field that has, like, a foundational developmental perspective on students. I mean, I feel like that's going to be an evergreen component of, like, who we are as a field and where we go. Of course, it has evolved. So if you talk about things that we're getting rid of, like, yes, much of the research originally was on, you know, white men, and it's evolved existentially to involve the diversity of our students, and will continue to do so. But the framework of, you know, taking student affairs from a developmental holistic student success perspective, I think, needs to continue to be centered.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:35:28]: I would agree with that and also maybe add on a little bit. So the interweaving of student affairs and student success looks different on every campus. Yet, at the end of the day, it all comes down to the holistic development of student. And so that, I think we need to be better experts at what that looks like too and how you're how we're supporting students on both the student affairs and student success sides of things. So that is something I've thought about very much during my University of Arizona days and all the way through now. And I think, you know, some campuses do it much better than others. And some campuses lean into what that work looks like and how it shifts in different places and then others, let it become a barrier between them in the same way that we, you know, have barriers between our perhaps faculty colleagues at times. Right? And it's it it makes me sad when I see that, those barriers coming up when we're all trying to really do our best for students.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:36:25]: So I think that that as well. Moving into the present, what's happening

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:29]: in the field right now that's going well for student affairs?

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:36:32]: I would say that our increased visibility after COVID or during COVID has sustained at majority of places that I work with, the majority of our colleges and institutions that I work with. And so, again, that partnership has been actualized in a new way is that voice is staying stronger at the table.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:36:53]: Yeah. I would agree with that, Jen. I mean, I think student affairs professionals often feel like, their work is minimized, right, in comparison with other areas of the university and certainly academics, which is central. But fundamentally, I believe that campuses see the value of student affairs work and the contributions. It doesn't always feel it in everyday moments, I mean, every meeting, but the value of student affairs, if you look at the emerging strategic plans at the university levels and you look at commitments to student success, I think it's there.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:27]: And looking towards the future, in an ideal world, what does the field need to do to thrive towards the future?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:37:33]: Wow. Well, Jill, I thought you were gonna ask about the present, like, current challenges. Right? So I think that the in my mind, the current challenges are what we need to get a handle on for the future. You know? And a couple of those challenges that come to mind most fervently are cost containment being our fiscal situations at the university, which are ever present, and the current sociopolitical moment, anti DEI legislation and dismantling of DEI, which is so core to the work of student affairs and serving a diverse student body and helping them thrive. And I think both of those, as we look towards the future, those are things we need to be able to manage and continue to create vision around and lead through the challenges so that we can continue to support and thrive in the core of our work and our purpose.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:38:22]: And I would say the building our pipeline. Right? How are we continuing to build the pipeline? How how are we preparing students in our or sorry. Not students, but young professionals and mid level professionals in their preparation programs, in their Dr.al programs, or EDD programs. How are we keeping excitement going around the field even in these difficult times? And so there's a lot of options out there for people these days. And we know how much churn has happened in recent years within student affairs and so on. So we really need to keep our eye on that development of the pipeline, and I think that we're doing a good job or at least I feel like we're doing a good job from where from my seat. Right? As I see folks moving into the AVP level and then above or even even honestly the director, executive director level. But I worry about will that keep coming at the rate if that pipeline is not carefully attended to at the early level, you know, newer professional and mid level areas.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:39:28]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:34]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's so much happening in NASPA. Thank you to everyone who voted in the annual NASPA leadership elections, which closed on February 11. NASPA is thrilled to announce that we have new leaders that will be joining us in the near future that will be joining our NASPA board of directors. Our board chair elect is Darryl Holliman, vice president for student affairs at Spelman College. Region one director, Will Johnson, associate vice president and dean of students at Fairfield University. Region three director, Juan Guardia. Vice president for student affairs at Texas a and m San Antonio.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:13]: Region four WEST director, Cassie Gerhardt, senior associate vice president for student affairs at the University of North Dakota, and region six director, Derek Vergara, dean of students, Orange Coast College. Congratulations to all of our incoming directors that will be starting their terms in 2026. And we are really looking forward to your leadership and voices at the board table. As we prepare for the NASPA annual conference, NASPA is always looking to honor those individuals who may have retired from the profession or those who have passed at the NASPA annual business meeting during the annual conference. To do this, we need your help to ensure that we include student affairs educators who have made an impact on the profession from entering individuals, assisting students, and making a difference in higher education. NASPA would also like to recognize any NASPA volunteer roles in which these individuals participated and or and or leadership positions that they might have held. Over the last few weekly updates that you have been emailed as a NASPA member, you will have seen a link where you can honor a colleague. I highly encourage you to take the time to fill fill out that form and let us know more about these people so that we can recognize them accordingly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:41:32]: In an earlier episode this season, Claire Brady was a guest on our show, and she mentioned and talked about the new NASPA report entitled The Transformative Potential of Artificial Intelligence, Recommendations for Student Affairs Leaders. This report examines the transformative role of artificial intelligence in student affairs, demonstrating its potential to personalize student interactions, automate routine processes, and leverage data insights for informed decision making. AI presents unprecedented opportunities to enhance the student experience. The report emphasizes essential ethical principles such as transparency, equity, and data stewardship, guiding leaders toward responsible AI adoption. With real world examples and a phased implementation framework, it provides actionable strategies for integrating AI as a strategic partner in promoting student success while honoring the human connections central to meaningful educational experiences. Designed to support student affairs leaders, this report serves as a guide for implementing AI in ways that advance institutional effectiveness without compromising core educational values. Beginning with an exploration of ethical considerations and the alignment of AI initiatives with strategic goals, it underscores a human centered approach and the importance of professional development. The report also offers a structured framework for AI integration, highlighting current use cases that demonstrate early success and forecasting applications set to impact the future of student affairs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:09]: This practical phased approach balances innovation with ethical stewardship, fostering a sustainable path for impactful AI adoption in higher education. If you have not yet downloaded this powerful guide, I highly encourage you to do so. It is available on the NASPA website under white papers, and you have an opportunity to be able to learn so much by delving into this report. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you wanna give back. Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:27]: I see myself doing something like that, or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:57]: Chris, thank you so much for keeping us informed on what's going on in and around NASPA, and we have finally reached our lightning round part of the show. I have seven questions for you to answer in ninety seconds. Ready to go?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:45:11]: Yes. Alrighty.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:12]: Question one. If you were a conference keynote speaker,

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:45:14]: what would your entrance music be? Walking on Sunshine.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:45:17]: Mine would be Don't Stop Me Now by Queen.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:19]: Number two, when you were five years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Teacher. A nun. Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:45:28]: I'm gonna go with Kent Porterfield, who is the VP at Gonzaga University, but was my VP when I decided to explore the SSAO role.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:45:37]: I would say the fabulous Dr. Susan Komovest, Melissa Vito, and Patty Perilla.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:43]: Number four, your essential student affairs read.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:45:45]: I'm gonna say multicultural competence and student affairs.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:45:48]: Okay. Because I'm a dork, and I love organizational structure and stuff like that. Mine has always been the ADP book, by, Jason Pena and Amy Hackt. AVP leading from the unique role of the associate and assistant vice president. And now they have their new book, which I still need to read is The Next Act, Realigning Your Mindset, Purpose, and Career.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:10]: Number five, the best TV show you've been binging lately. Wait, Lotus?

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:46:13]: Oh, I've heard about that one. Mine would be Dairy Girls and eighteen eighty three.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:19]: Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:46:22]: Well, this one. Yeah.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:26]: We always appreciate that. And finally, number seven. Any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:46:32]: I'll shout out to my husband who makes my role in student affairs be able to be maintained because he carries the weight at home.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:46:41]: I will give a shout out just to my fabulous colleagues at Wit Kiefer. We have a wonderful, wonderful group of folks who are a a number of student affairs professionals originally, and I just love having those individuals around me all the time.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:55]: This has been such an incredible conversation on interim leadership. I'm sure our listeners would love to follow-up with you with questions. If they would like to reach you, how can they find you?

Dr. Leanna Fenneberg [00:47:04]: You can find me on LinkedIn, Liana Fenenberg.

Dr. Jen Myers Pickard [00:47:06]: Same for me, Jen Pickard on LinkedIn as well as anyone who's welcome to reach out to me directly at [email protected]. Liana and Jen, thank you both so much for sharing your voice with us today. Thanks. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:47:25]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners, and we continue to be grateful that you spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and please leave us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever students affairs professionals find our show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton. That's me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:48:04]: Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.