We wanted to let you all in on a well guarded secret: there are actually other podcasts out there that try to Order the Disorder. The team behind the New European magazine produce a podcast called ‘The Two Matts’. We were really inspired by their recent treatment of how Germany is dealing with its neopopulism problem. In this bonus episode of Disorder, we present an excerpt from The Two Matts Jan 26th Show ‘Germany Fighting Fascism’ where Matt and Matt talk about the massive street protests against the AfD and the unique constitutional ways in which Germany can fight the rise of neopopulism. 

Show Notes Links  

Listen to the Two Matts here

Read Jason Pack’s recent article in The New European about how Bibi is just a run of the mill neopopulist here

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This week we examine the regional roles played by Egypt and Iran and discuss British diplomacy towards those countries over the last decade or so. Iran and Egypt offer a fascinating study in contrasts – in terms of their dealings with Israel and Hamas, as well as their posturing relative to the outside world.  

So who better to help us understand these countries regional role than Alex’s former boss, Sir Geoffrey Adams, who served as British Ambassador both to Iran (2006-9) and to Egypt (2018-21). He served  also as Consul General in Jerusalem, the representative to the Palestinian Authority; as Foreign Office Director for the Middle East, and as DG Political – the chief political advisor in the Foreign Office. He is now an honorary lecturer at the Institute for Iranian Studies at the University of St Andrews. 

Sir Geoffrey relates his experiences of how diplomacy ‘feels’ in Tehran and Cairo and explains why medium powers like Egypt and Iran cannot be dictated to by disunited Western powers. Alex and Jason try to Order the Disorder by discussing Iran’s role as a disordering power, Egypt’s role as a mediating one, and why the medium powers in the region need to step up. 

Twitter: @DisorderShow 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/disorderpod/  

Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  

Producer: George McDonagh 

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 

Show Notes Links  

Sir Geoffrey’s FCDO bio is available here

His ‘Reflections on the Arab Spring Ten Years On’ can be accessed here

For more on the role of Iran as Disorderer please consult Ali Ansari in Ep4 here

For more on the regional role of Egypt and why Gaza is existential for Egypt according to Nathan Brown: pls consult in Ep16. The Struggle for Leadership of the Islamic World here

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In this episode, Jason Pack and Alexandra Hall Hall open with their thoughts on the EU’s strengths and weaknesses – concluding that the old adage, ‘The EU is an economic colossus and a political pygmy’, is not too far off. To investigate how the EU leverages its trade clout, Alex interviews John Clarke – a British national who worked for more than 30 years as a trade negotiator for the EU. John tells us the tricks of the trade: how the US would steal trade dossiers during negotiations, how the psychology of negotiations works, and how the devil is in the details of free trade agreements.  

He also describes how the EU’s trade treaties are like the different reciprocal drinking arrangements down at the pub. And of course, John gives Alex an insider’s perspective of ‘what went wrong’ over Brexit. In Ordering the Disorder, Jason and Alex discuss the lack of specific training that US and UK Ambassadors receive about negotiations, how the EU must navigate a fine line between the US and China, and how the rise of Neo-Populism in Europe could spell the end to EU’s trade negotiating prowess. 

Twitter: @DisorderShow 

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 

Show Notes Links 

For more visit here

Read more about Europe’s Trade Ambitions here

For more on the EU’s recent New Zealand trade deal visit here

Find more on the tensions at play within EU read "Poland opposes extension of EU trade preferences for Ukraine” here

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As the Houthis attack ships in the Red Sea, Arthur Snell and Jason explore: 1) How this horrible crisis is actually an opportunity to create a coalition of orderers; 2) how Iran is not really able to use the Houthis as a proxy; 3) how one interpretation of the Houthi actions is as ‘global disordering’ rather than specifically supporting the Palestinians or a given outcome in Gaza; and 4) how there is an opportunity for a uniquely constructive role for Britain, drawing on its credibility and experience in protecting global shipping especially in a context where China refuses to engage.  

Twitter: @DisorderShow 

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 

Show Notes Links 

A good intro to Yemeni history from Time’s ‘Made by History’ can be found here.

What the US is doing here

What the UK is doing by Elisabeth Braw here

And what some think the US and UK should be doing here

Context around Anti-Semitism in Yemen here 

Role of Saudi here

Listen to Arthur Snell’s podcast, Behind the Lines here

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In this episode, Jason Pack and Alexandra Hall Hall disentangle the related concepts of corruption, illegality, embezzlement, and bribery. They discuss what happens when the laws of a given country allow legalized versions of ‘corruption in plain sight’ to flourish. They’ll look at two different case studies of this phenomenon: Britain and Libya. First, Alex talks to journalist and author Sam Bright about the unique type of ‘pay for access’ corruption that has infiltrated the British establishment. They’ll analyse how wealthy donors can buy meetings with senior officials within the Conservative Party, the implications of the UK’s failed Golden Visa Programme and how it has allowed oligarchs to embed themselves into the UK’s political and economic life, and how the British media’s cosy relationships with cabinet ministers leads to a lack of accountability and transparency. 

Later in the episode, Jason talks to Husni Bey Husni, Libya’s most famous and successful entrepreneur and businessman. They’ll unpack how subsidies in Libya encourage corruption and pervert incentive structures and international markets. They dwell on the policy implications of these perversions and Husni argues that a libertarian approach is his personal solution to help Order the Disorder.  

Finally, Jason and Alex discuss how to deter corruption in British politics, how the Libyans have perfected the Miss Manner’s Guide to Rigorously Correct Kleptocracy works, how the libertarian approach might (and might not) work, how regulations and cultural norms are needed, and how removing perverse incentive structures is essential as humans will always do whatever benefits them if they can get away with it. 

Twitter: @DisorderShow 

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 

Show Notes Links 

Get Sam Bright’s books Fortress London: The definitive book about Levelling Up and why it matters here And Bullingdon Club Britain: The Ransacking of a Nation here  

Get Jason's book Libya and The Global Enduring Disorder here (And read about the Miss Manner’s Guide to Rigorously Correct Kleptocracy in Chapter 4) 

Read more about Kleptocracy here

Read more about Husni here

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In this episode, Jason Pack is joined by Arthur Snell, and they speak to Professor Naho Mirumachi. Naho is a specialist on the politics of the environment. She is particularly interested in ‘the wars that were not fought’ over water usage. The trio discuss: what lessons can be learnt from international governance of water usage and other related collective action challenges, will there actually be ‘Water Wars’ in the future, and the challenges of international coordination over the usage of water. 

Expanding outwards from historical and contemporary examples of water conflict and water sharing in the Nile Basin and Mekong Delta, the hosts ask Naho: given climate change and aridification, will there be enough fresh water to sustain a world population of 10 billion humans for the long term future?  

In the Ordering the Disorder segment, the trio conclude that major states just tend not to fight over water. Or at least they haven’t as of yet. In fact, water diplomacy has been surprisingly successful over the past few decades and may point to certain lessons concerning how to incentivize optimal compromises in other fields like tax, security, or borders.  

Twitter: @DisorderShow 

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 

Show Notes Links 

Get Naho’s book Water: A Critical Introduction (Wiley) here

Read NAHO’s writing at Valuing water: a difficult but crucial step towards greater water justice here

Listen to Arthur Snell’s podcast, Behind the Lines, here

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On the 1st of January 2024, BRICS (an international forum of Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa), are welcoming in new members to form BRICS+. In this episode, Alex Hall Hall talks with Anjali Bhatt about what the bloc aims to achieve and what the addition of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Ethiopia, Egypt, and the UAE might entail for the organization. They’ll also discuss Argentina’s new disruptive leader, why he might withdraw from BRICS+, and whether the expansion could mean the strengthening of disordering powers (like China). 

In the Ordering the Disorder segment, Jason and Alex discuss whether the West should take BRICS+ seriously as a global force, what some of their ideas might mean for global economics, and whether the institution of BRICS+ will function more as an ordering force or more as a disordering one. 

Twitter: @DisorderShow 

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 

Show Notes Links 

No One Knows What BRICS Expansion Means by Anjali Bhatt here

And for a broader overview of BRICS, its history, and role in the world, pls consult here

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In our Christmas special, Jason Pack and Alex Hall Hall look back at the first year of the disorder pod, and forecast a bit about the next. They discuss 2024 as a record-breaking year of global elections, answer some listeners’ questions about topics like Central Asia, Gaza, Western hypocrisy, and Palestinian History. 

They also share a bit about themselves, their families’ holiday menus, and their escape routes. Like, who knew that Alex likes doing puzzles so much and that Jason is a super fan of the Netflix show Fauda.  During the Ordering the Disorder Segment, they discuss why we urgently need to get the Christmas spirit back into diplomacy. 

Twitter: @DisorderShow 

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/  

Producer: George McDonagh 

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 

Show Notes Links 

At the start and end of the podcast, we heard some lovely Xmas music from Evoke, a London-based vocal ensemble founded and directed by Victoria Ely. Full credits: 

Pat-a-pan: traditional Burgundian carol, arranged by David Conte. 

Jingle Bells: arranged by Audrey Snyder 

Music performed by Evoke, directed by Victoria Ely 

Facebook: www.facebook.com/evokemusicuk 

Youtube: www.youtube.com/@evoke1439 

Website: www.evokemusic.org/  

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In this episode, Alex and Jason investigate if major Islamic nations can exercise global leadership over the Israel-Palestine conflict and propose implementable solutions. They also examine the leverage that Arab Gulf States now have over the West, in general, and Britian, in specific. Jason talks to James M. Dorsey, host of the Turbulent World podcast, to investigate three of the principal countries battling simultaneously for leadership of the Islamic World and to set the direction of ‘moderate’ Islam in the 21st century: the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Indonesia.  

Zooming in on how these dynamics bear upon the diplomacy surrounding the Gaza conflict, Jason speaks with Nathan Brown; a keen observer of Palestinian politics over the last six decades. They explore how the Palestinian question has traditionally been connected to both struggles over Muslim identity and leadership of the Islamic world. They analyse how the current struggle for Islamic Leadership could actually provide opportunities to forge solutions to the Israel-Gaza conflict. 

At the end of the show, Jason and Alex return to the question of what it means that the UK has become ever more reliant on money from the Gulf States, and whether that’s taken away any leverage the West may have over these countries in the current conflict. 

Twitter: @DisorderShow 

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/struggle-for-global-leadership  

Producer: George McDonagh 

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 

Show Notes Links 

Listen to James M. Dorsey’s podcast, The Turbulent World here

Nathan’s first gloomy premonition, “There Might Be No Day After in Gaza here

And his “Arab Peace Initiative II: How Arab Leadership Could Design a Peace Plan in Israel and Palestine” here

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In this week’s episode, Jason and Alex are joined by Kurt Volker, former US Ambassador to NATO and former US’s Special Representative to Ukraine. The wide-ranging discussion tries to unpick NATO’s role in our increasingly disordered world. They also examine what makes NATO successful where the UN and other international organizations falter. They discuss both the 2023 NATO summit in Lithuania and the 2023 Tbilisi International Conference, entitled “Defeating Putinism.” They also look forward to next year’s supremely important NATO summit in Washington with bated breath. That moment not only marks 75 years since NATO’s creation, but it ‘should be’ the moment that NATO offers Ukraine concrete steps to membership. Plus: they look at the late Senator John McCain’s legacy and the US’s role in NATO, as the momentous 2024 election approaches.  

Alex and Jason Order the Disorder by postulating why Ukraine needs to join NATO as soon as possible – even if the war with Russia is still ongoing. 

Twitter: @DisorderShow 

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries  

Producer: George McDonagh 

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 

Show Notes Links 

Previous episode on NATO here

Read Kurt Volker’s NATO assessments here

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