On this week's episode, we're joined by Donna Lancaster — therapist, author, co-founder of The Bridge Retreat, and a self-described "elder in training" who turns 60 next March and genuinely cannot wait.

Donna grew up with violence, addiction and racism in 1970s Britain, became a social worker trying to save versions of herself, and was eventually "brought to her knees" by a breakdown at work. She talks about why she sees that collapse as a gift, the "turd-wrapped gift" buried inside our hardest experiences, and why getting older doesn't make you wiser unless you do the work.

There's also the line that stopped Kaye and Karen in their tracks — it's not an old face, it's a new one — plus elderhood as a purpose, why she runs a workshop called Preparing for Death, and what she's planning in the forest for her 60th.

How To Be 60 is at the Edinburgh Fringe, 7–9 August, Gilded Balloon at the Museum:

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