Join me, Danielle Ireland, on this week’s episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs as I chat with Jeanine Bobenmoyer, the founder of City Moms. Jeanine shares her journey from feeling isolated in a new city to building a thriving community for moms that is expanding nationwide. We dive into the power of community building, the importance of saying 'no,' and how City Moms grew from a local network to a national movement. This conversation is filled with heartfelt moments, laughter, and invaluable lessons on self-trust and service to others. Tune in to learn how Jeanine's mission evolved and how you can connect with this incredible community of supportive moms. Don't miss Jeanine's own 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs' moment—it's a story of transformation you won't want to miss!

 

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview

01:11 Jeanine's Background and City Moms Origin

02:46 Early Challenges and Community Building

04:39 Meeting Sarah and Business Growth

10:32 Drew Barrymore Show and Indianapolis Love

13:54 Content Strategy and Community Engagement

20:59 COVID Impact and National Expansion

23:05 Expanding the City Moms Community

24:17 Building a Female-Led Team

26:15 Listening to City Moms

28:50 Storytelling Over Sales

36:02 Launching a New Membership Experience

38:32 A Personal Story of Change

50:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

 

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DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.

 

Connect with Jeanine:

• Website: www.thecitymoms.org
• Join our membership waitlist: https://thecitymoms.org/join-waitlist 

• Instagram:@thecitymoms

• TikTok: @thecitymoms

• Pinterest: @thecitymoms 

Connect with Danielle:

• Watch the show on YouTube

• Instagram

• The Treasured Journal

• Wrestling a Walrus

Transcript

[00:00:00]

[00:00:08] Hello. Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are catching an episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs.

[00:00:13] And today I have the opportunity to sit down with city moms founder, janine Bobmeyer. Janine is a mom of teens, a yoga addict, a Michigan native, and an avid reader. Her dream vacation includes hiking in national parks with her family and a cup of hot chai. And do we get into the tea in this episode?

[00:00:34] But RT is super heartfelt, heart led, and based on community building and vulnerability. If that's the stuff that you're into, then oh, you are gonna love this conversation. Of all the things I took from this episode, what Janine embodies and what you are able to learn from as well is what it means to trust yourself, and that in the process of honoring yourself, giving a wholehearted loving no or saying yes to adventure, it is leading you to something that is not only in service of you.

[00:01:09] But in service of others. Janine has founded a community city moms and started as a local community that she built based on her own need in Indianapolis. But it has grown and it is popping up in cities all over the country. We get into the early days and please stay tuned if there was ever a, don't cut your own bang moment to really not wanna miss.

[00:01:31] This is a good one. It actually, it bookends the episode perfectly because we start by talking about her business and the community and company that she started, but we understand the why, the deep, profound, heartfelt, why that inspired it all. What I believe to be true that when we act in service of ourself it ultimately rises everybody up with you.

[00:01:56] Everything we have leaving up to it is also just equally beautiful, sweet, funny, and endearing.

[00:02:03] Thank you for being here. Thank you, Janine, for this beautiful conversation. And I can't wait for you to sit back, relax, or put in your AirPods and go for a walk however you like to listen and enjoy. ​

[00:02:18] Danielle: Janine Bobmeyer. It's such a pleasure to have you on the Don't Cut Your Own Banks podcast. You are the chief executive officer and co-founder of City Moms, and it is the largest growing lifestyle brand in the Midwest.

[00:02:31] So I am just so honored to spend some time with you and share all of what you do and what you offer women and mothers in the Midwest, to the Don't Cut Your own Bangs. Listeners, thank you for being here.

[00:02:43] Jeanine: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:02:46] Danielle: Yeah, so fun fact on how we connected, if I'm remembering this correctly, a couple of years ago, city moms reached out to me to feature Don't cut your own bank podcast in, one of your, articles or newsletters just featuring local podcasts in Indie.

[00:03:03] And that was so lovely. That was at a time where I was just starting and didn't know who was listening. It was such a, it was so validating and a real confidence boost for me. So I first wanna just say thank you.

[00:03:14] Jeanine: Oh my gosh, I'm so glad I remember that article. We were.

[00:03:18] Pulling, I think it was the top 10 podcasts you should be listening to in Indianapolis. Specifically founded by females. And you were one of the first that came to mind, because I know you were just launching at the time. You were like, well, hello. Of course you need to be listed on this.

[00:03:32] Danielle: When you're just getting something off the ground, there is such a. There's so much space between where you are, right, where you imagine yourself to be or where you wanna be.

[00:03:43] And whatever you can do to just keep getting one foot in front of the other, or even getting started takes so much energy and it's vulnerable. And so you and your best friend and business partner Sarah Hawker, are sitting on top of this really beautiful community that you have built. I think community building is just a magic skill.

[00:04:06] And so I wanna go back to the early days of City Moms. You have some language on your site that I love. You need a village. We have it. Yeah, I was thinking that we don't need super women. We need supported women. Right.

[00:04:20] I've also learned that what we offer others usually starts with the healing we need it. And so you're a mom of teens now? Yeah. So can you tell me a little bit about like the origin of city moms and how you went from I'm imagining having a good idea with your girlfriend to sitting where you're sitting today, being featured on the Drew Barrymore show.

[00:04:39] Jeanine: Yeah, I was new to Indianapolis in 2011, so we had moved to the city from Detroit. I'm originally from Michigan, but my husband's from Indy. And in moving here to be closer to his family, I didn't know anybody. And you know, my husband wonderfully, having grown up here, has a lot of friends that are still here, but he's like, let's go out with Davis and let's have, lunch with Johnson.

[00:05:02] I was like, I don't wanna do any of that, like . I'm a mom and at the time I had a 1-year-old and a 4-year-old. So you're just trying to keep, your life together in those moments of motherhood anyway. So to be in a new city, and just not know One Soul was really, I mean, just adds more challenges on top of what you're already facing.

[00:05:20] Danielle: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:20] Jeanine: So we had been here and just before I moved, a friend of mine in Detroit said, have you checked out Meetup? And I was like, no, what is this? And so she's telling me about Meetup and you can go on, you can kind of filter based on your interests and find a local community. And so I did and I found a couple moms groups that were in the Indianapolis area.

[00:05:43] I found that, most of the majority of moms communities that we find really across the nation, even today, are tied to one of two things. It's churches

[00:05:51] Danielle: or it's schools.

[00:05:52] And we

[00:05:52] Jeanine: didn't have either. I decided that that was the moment to potentially launch, my own community.

[00:05:58] One that was just open to all moms across Indianapolis, that didn't have those specific kind of school or church affiliation, and we had a hundred members sign up on the first day.

[00:06:09] Danielle: Whoa. I I have to pause for just a moment. Yeah. So you were seeking to meet your own need. Yes. And I find that so interesting that's really telling about you.

[00:06:20] Just as a person and how you move through the world is you saw a gap for your own experience and then immediately connected it to what? Like, how do I expand this beyond me? Yes. As opposed to like, how do I find my community? How do I find my people? You're like, oh, there aren't people or communities, so I'm gonna build one.

[00:06:40] That's really interesting.

[00:06:42] Jeanine: Yeah. And for me it was because, I desperately needed community. I desperately was seeking that out. I had never been, shy to creating that myself in prior iterations. I was coming out of the advertising industry in Detroit and even in this really large advertising agency, had found my little corner of people.

[00:07:04] At the time, had founded a tiny, I forget exactly what we called ourselves, but we were almost like our cheerleading community of the agency itself, where we started to put on little events for this large agency. And it started just because, we saw that at the workplace, it was just constant go, go, go.

[00:07:21] In advertising. And there wasn't that pause to connect with, you know, your your desk mate or a team member. And so that for me, is just something that I've always loved doing.

[00:07:31] But in coming to Indianapolis recognized, I also needed a community here and without kids in school, without having a church home, without even having, a neighborhood that I was close to. Just that gap existed and I realized it was something I needed to fill.

[00:07:48] Danielle: Yeah. And not only did you, it sounds like fill that for yourself, but then you met a need that many other women in the community had too. Now, how did this, so was Sarah somebody that came with you from Michigan? Did you meet her here? How did that connection happen?

[00:08:04] Jeanine: Yeah, so Sarah, my business partner and one of my dearest dearest, I actually met her.

[00:08:08] We've known each other seven years now.

[00:08:10] Danielle: Hmm.

[00:08:10] Jeanine: The city moms community. And membership was running for years.

[00:08:15] Danielle: Oh.

[00:08:15] Jeanine: I was introduced to her, through a mutual friend. It was such a funny experience because we were at this mutual friend's house for a dinner, and immediately upon meeting her I was like, well, this is someone I obviously need to know forever.

[00:08:30] She just has one of the most dynamic personalities. She's so engaging. She just pulls you right in. And she asked me a question about, a dress I was wearing. It was from anthropology. And she was like, oh yeah, I have that dress. I think I have that in black. And you're, you wearing it in like a green.

[00:08:45] And I was like, boy. Yes.

[00:08:47] Danielle: Yes. It's like that scene in stepbrothers, it's like 1, 2, 3 anthropology.

[00:08:51] Jeanine: Yes. Exactly.

[00:08:52] Danielle: Exactly. And I

[00:08:53] Jeanine: was like, oh, well, we're obviously besties. Yeah. Yeah. At the time, she was in the process of, quitting her nursing job.

[00:09:02] Danielle: She said,

[00:09:02] Jeanine: yes, I'm really, I think my last day is going to be August 31st, and that happens to be my son's birthday.

[00:09:09] And she said, I'm just, I've been working so hard, I making this change. I'm going to start my own company. And I just, I've needed this push for a long time. And I said, I am going to text or call you on August 31st and find out how it's going. And she was like, are you really?

[00:09:27] And so there we are two months later. I texted her and I said, how's it going? Did you start your own company? Are you making this next move? And she was like, yes. And this is amazing that you remembered. And we just have been close ever since. So she's one of my absolute favorite people, and as the city moms has evolved, so has her role.

[00:09:47] First as a member, then she was a member of our content team, which I'm sure we'll chat about here a little bit. And now she's, my business partner.

[00:09:55] Danielle: Wow. That's so beautiful. I find that, women who work together, play together, raise kids alongside each other, it's like in the way that women can change hats in life.

[00:10:08] They can do that within relationships. I've just seen really well, is it, I think that there's that old paradigm of which I've never really bought into, which is, check your feelings at the door or leave work at the door. It's like we're all one person. The day where we have all these different parts and that's so beautiful.

[00:10:26] How. That sounds like this friendship has grown as well as the business growth.

[00:10:30] Jeanine: Yes.

[00:10:31] Absolutely. And, you've hinted at the Drew Barrymore Show which was an opportunity that came out in COVID complete surprise.

[00:10:40] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:10:40] Jeanine: To receive an email from the producers in set by, actually this was like end of July, 2021.

[00:10:46] And they said, with COVID having really tampered down, a lot of the programming we're able to do for this show, we're not allowed to travel as much. We are launching a new kind of mini segment inside the show itself. We would love to chat with you about the one that we would like to do in Indianapolis.

[00:11:02] We noticed that you're based there. Would you have any interest? And of course, Sarah was my first phone call because

[00:11:08] I just like, ah, I need someone to scream with for a moment. Yeah. And because we had no idea or context what the segment specifically was about. And so I called and scream with her and then, immediately called the producers.

[00:11:19] And they said, well, what we're looking to do is have two best friends in the city showcase the city together. And what makes your city unique?

[00:11:28] Danielle: I mean, who better to do it?

[00:11:30] Jeanine: And we were like, Indianapolis is such a incredible city and community to begin with. In just the 14 years that we've been here to see the growth that this area has had.

[00:11:40] Just all of the changes downtown, all of these incredible like national events that they bring in, like this weekend being WNBA All Star Weekend.

[00:11:49] The city has just shown up for this. They've had the final four. They've had US Olympics pre swim trials. This city knows how to put on, a really incredible display on a national level.

[00:12:01] Danielle: Do you know, what you're making me think about is, so in the work I do in therapy, particularly when I'm working, with someone on their relationship, that the longer you've been with someone, or, and you could even, insert really any topic, a job, a place you live in this case, a relationship, it's easy to take for granted what you think.

[00:12:23] About them and you lose access to maybe the curiosity and the wonder that allows you to continue to discover. I have lived in Indianapolis my entire life. You mentioned living here 14 years, but when I was preparing for this interview and seeing all the places that you're highlighting, there are places I have never been, and I've been here my whole entire life.

[00:12:44] Just because I think I know, like this is where I live. Of course, I know there is so much that I don't know and we're talking about community and we're obviously highlighting City moms, but I think that there are takeaways that can be applied to so many walks of life, which is just when you think you know something, for sure.

[00:13:02] Allow yourself a little bit more space. There's this little bit room for a little bit more wonder and curiosity.

[00:13:09] Jeanine: Yeah, absolutely. I think that takes it back even to the origin of the city moms, in a big piece of that mission was I wanted to get out and explore this new city and community that we were in.

[00:13:21] Just didn't have the roots quite yet to do that. And I wanted to do it alongside people

[00:13:25] as opposed to on my own. And, we're talking about all these big events that the city puts on. But the other beautiful thing is that the real fabric of the city lives in its people and those that are here, we see so many that are coming in from other communities.

[00:13:41] We see a lot like you that have lived here for forever. But there's such an incredible mix of people in this city that really make it as special as it is. And I love that.

[00:13:51] Danielle: Thank you that's such a great response. And your love for the city is so felt. And I, I'm curious about when you're in your content, which by the way, for any, everyone listening, everything is linked in the show notes, all the social media platforms, city moms, where you can join the wait list for their membership program.

[00:14:09] All of that is accessible to you in the show notes. So press pause, sign up, follow all the things and then come back. 'Cause the other thing I love about your content is you layer in a lot of humor and, even though it's not maybe spoken this way, there's this quality of, yeah, girl, I've been like, this is messy.

[00:14:28] And I'm also wiping up my own mess. I also have coffee stains. I also have food in my teeth. Can we just laugh at the ridiculousness of how hard this is sometimes? And I'm curious about how intentional is it?

[00:14:39] Are there like pillars that you try to hit when you put content out? Like it must hit these notes and if so, I wanna know what they are.

[00:14:47] Jeanine: Yeah, we really do because I think you're absolutely right for us. And I'll just share a little bit behind the scenes for the city moms, in terms of the tone and voice that we are always after in virtually every piece of our content.

[00:14:59] I think this also comes out of my marketing and advertising background, but, the voice and the tone in the brand that we are always aspiring to be. Is your best friend growing up and your best friend growing up was the person you confided everything to Similar to me, screaming at Sarah about Drew Barrymore.

[00:15:18] This is the pers there's your first call, that's your first call, your first text. But your best friend's sister, her older sister growing up was the coolest girl that you ever met. She was the girl that had the full pull out posters on her wall. She had the Dr. Pepper lip smackers, she was watching the Hills, and she was the girl that you're like, I wanna be her when I grow up.

[00:15:40] She's the person that is just a few steps ahead from where you are , in your current life.

[00:15:45] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:15:45] Jeanine: stage. And you are constantly keeping an eye on her. That voice, that older sister is the one that we always aspire our city moms brand to be. Because we have been there, we have sat in those shoes. We have experienced a lot of the mess.

[00:16:00] But that doesn't mean that we are completely. Removed and away from it. It means that we are just a couple days ahead of where our city mom might be and all of our content will always ladder into that voice to say, yeah, we know it sucks 'cause we've been there.

[00:16:17] For us, I think what's so critical when we're selecting what content we wanna put out, so the humor that you see in a lot of our Instagram content . Is something that really is a great way to be super relatable and just, share a lot of those similar moments. The one we posted yesterday,

[00:16:33] but, in case anyone wants to go back, either the reel that we posted yesterday is from a creator named Sam, and she's sitting on her bed thinking and speaking aloud saying, why did I say that I was so busy before I had kids? What was I even doing before I was a mom? And I think all of us in motherhood and truly in adulthood

[00:16:55] Danielle: mm-hmm.

[00:16:56] Jeanine: Have had that moment where even like, what did I do with my time? Like, what on earth was I filling my hours with?

[00:17:02] That to be able to have kind of those humorous moments, I think is really critical to making sure that we're connecting with our City mom followers and, prospective, members too.

[00:17:14] Danielle: That type of humor makes you feel seen. Yes. It helps you feel seen. And I think some, especially someone who like will grab the shovel and help dig into like the pits of experience with clients, some having the levity. If there was ever a myth I wish I could bust about therapy and community, whether it's group or a community like city moms or any extension when you find that type of connection, yes, you can have like with a best friend or a best friend's older sister, you can have those moments where it may be a tear or two are shed, but when somebody sees you.

[00:17:51] There's laughter that happens in every therapy session that either I've participated in my own therapy or have led somebody else through. There is something about the truth, especially the truth that you try so hard to avoid or that this is the one thing I just need to keep tucked in my drawer and never let anybody see.

[00:18:07] But then you see somebody else has it and you're like, oh, , you have that dress too. Oh my God. Yes,

[00:18:13] Jeanine: yes, yes. Absolutely. And I think too, what's, really critical in doing that is just knowing that you are not living a path that is completely unpaved.

[00:18:25] It is so hard in. Those moments when you've had two hours of sleep. It's so hard in those moments when you're like, are we ever gonna get past this phase? But I think what brings so much comfort along the way is knowing that there are other women that have done that.

[00:18:38] And for us, that's why it's so critical to have a community that is supportive of each other and really allows you to be in those vulnerable moments with others.

[00:18:48] Danielle: What do you think attracts people to you and to your organization?

[00:18:51] Because like anything that you're highlighting could also be Googled. Yeah. But there's a way that you offer it and there's a way that you present it that is, it simplifies. It's reliable. There's like this bubbly, sparkling champagne effervescence to it. It just makes it a little shinier.

[00:19:09] Jeanine: That's such a good question. I don't, there's some days when I'm like, I have no idea. You're like, we've been doing this for so many years, what are we doing? I really think it's because, and to use your phrase, feeling seen.

[00:19:20] And feeling seen and being a part of an club that is all, inclusive and allows everyone to be a part of it. Even in some of our content where we're sharing events that we might have put on for just our membership, so not even just our social media, following our, editorial readers, the people that see us and broadcast and tv, but we do have this community of members as well.

[00:19:42] So when we put on these membership events, that are a little more exclusive, we love to share those out with the phrase, steal this idea, because then it becomes less, this is only available to these specific women or these specific members and make it a, this can be your idea too. So steal this idea.

[00:20:02] We ordered pizza and we set up a really fun style party, or picnic set up in a park and we didn't invite kids. It was just moms and we gabbed for the entire evening and we had a blast. Yeah, and you should steal this idea too, because it doesn't need to just be ours.

[00:20:19] Danielle: I can feel now how that falls.

[00:20:20] So in line with your idea of, we wanna be your best friend's, big sister, because that's what they would do. Listen, just take the shirt. You can keep it. It doesn't fit me anymore. I love that. Not only is it generous, but it speaks to, I think with time and experience you realize, oh, there's always gonna be more for me.

[00:20:36] So why gate keep it like there's always gonna be more. So you just have some of this. You can share some of this magic. That's so beautiful. Has your mission changed? Since you first started, has it grown or is it kind of the same?

[00:20:48] Jeanine: It's evolved. I mean, initially the mission and the focus was always just to create this membership community.

[00:20:55] And that would be it. And we just had this, community of women here in Indianapolis. The change happened and evolved in COVID because as everyone knows, COVID forced so many of us home. That ability to connect in person no longer existed. In COVID, we held for our membership a daily call at four o'clock on Zoom that allowed our members to just get on and just have people.

[00:21:20] We had moms that were like, I've been in my backyard all day. We had moms that were like, I cannot play with Play-Doh anymore. I just need to have an adult to talk to. It started. With the realization that we couldn't be together in person any longer and we needed to make a shift.

[00:21:37] And in making that shift, what we found was that our brand exploded nationally. So it went from we are moms in Indianapolis, to, we are moms that everyone across the nation can now connect with because we are all living the same life together. And it never slowed down. So when we look at the breakout of our following in our audience right now, about 30% of that is in the Midwest and very quickly growing.

[00:22:03] But the other pockets are New York. Texas, California. And, it just is such an incredible realization that, what started as this very local idea became a steal. This idea, let's all do this.

[00:22:17] And on a much bigger scale. So, now we have this wonderful platform. Our number one driver is certainly Instagram because that's where we, I mean, as almost all women in our age group.

[00:22:30] Yeah. We live, we love it. Yeah. So Instagram's kind of our number one. A channel, I would say our second is, broadcast tv.

[00:22:38] Danielle: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:39] Jeanine: So in COVID, a lot of broadcast stations around the country, also had to shift to a Zoom model and Yep. Desperately needed content. and started reaching out to us because we provided a lot of lifestyle content.

[00:22:51] The here tips for keeping your kids, safe in the new COVID world. Here are tips for planning kids being at home during back to school. And it, we grew from that and we are now in nine different TV broadcast markets around the Midwest.

[00:23:04] Danielle: Wow.

[00:23:05] Jeanine: In addition to segments we do across the country.

[00:23:07] Danielle: Those segments. I mean, not only are they, fun to look at, but they also provide great information. So when everybody listening goes to city moms.org, you'll be able to see all the media outlets that they've been on.

[00:23:19] All those clips are saved there. It's like in this beautiful little library bank that you can watch. So it sounds like it's changed, it's grown rapidly. Beyond, or I would say even within the container of the community that you've created in Indianapolis, there's also a growing community for the business itself.

[00:23:35] There's many direct reports and people who are working within the city moms organization, and also supporting in other ways. So I'm curious, just from a business owner standpoint, how has that, 'cause that, as your community expanded, it's also like the call's coming from within the house, there's growth happening inside too.

[00:23:53] What has that been like?

[00:23:55] Jeanine: It's been incredible. , Because again, we really thought that, in initially creating this community, we were going to live as a micro kind of nano events community would probably be the best way to put it. Or we put on events for our members and we would just keep putting on events for members.

[00:24:09] And we had our social channels to share out some of that information. But I thought for a long time that it was just gonna be isolated in this teeny circle. And now, we have a extremely popular blog. We have a digital editor, an entire writing staff that works under her. We have a completely female, based staff.

[00:24:28] Every member on our team is female. We've got this digital editor writing staff under her. We have a content team separate from the writing staff. They are the ones that go out and gather a lot of the content that we put across social and broadcast. We have project management team for all of our brand sponsorships that we work on.

[00:24:47] Our newest hire is a Pinterest expert, which has been so fun. Pinterest is one of those sleeper cells that, not a lot of emphasis gets put on for lifestyle media brands, and we've decided to invest a person in that. She does a wonderful job at getting our editorial and our broadcast out in Pinterest.

[00:25:06] And then, there's Sarah and I who provide leadership Sarah has been a co-partner now for, four months, or we're going into our fourth months together. So we're still figuring out those little funnels right now. We're just having fun, overlapping, and living everything together.

[00:25:21] And where she was that first call, I made for the Drew Barrymore show, she's now my first call literally for everything. We've got this big event coming up on Saturday. We need to figure out, the backdrop we're gonna have behind that.

[00:25:31] She called me yesterday and I said, Hey, work wife, because that's, we've definitely become for each other in addition to Best Friends.

[00:25:38] Danielle: Yeah. Is it an instinct? Is it research? Is it a combination thereof of how you stay connected with what moms really need? Yeah. Is because , I'm a mom of littles. I have a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old and almost 2-year-old. He'll be two later in August. And I, I know my experience, but you seem to have a really strong sense based on the way people are really connected to this community, of staying connected with what mothers specifically really need. And I'm curious how you stay current with that, or is it more that the needs really haven't changed?

[00:26:15] Jeanine: No, I think that, for us, because we have such a large staff,

[00:26:20] and for the most part, the majority of those women are mothers.

[00:26:24] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:26:24] Jeanine: All of us are living a different little phase of motherhood.

[00:26:28] I have teens, Sarah has 12, 10, and eight. Our photographer Brittany has four and two just like you. So everyone is living in a different stage and I think not only do we have each other from our team perspective but because we have our membership community who is most certainly living all of this.

[00:26:47] We are able to lean on their experiences in addition to our own.

[00:26:52] And then, one of the biggest things that I really implore our team to do is listen and constantly listen about what city mom and we call our avatar is city mom. And, regardless, again, if she's a member or if she's a follower of our brand and another channel, we call her city mom. So I'm always pushing to listen to city mom, listen to where city mom is right now, what things are the hurdles in her life, what she's up against.

[00:27:19] And listening is the most important thing because the last thing that I wanna do in managing and running a brand and spearheading a brand is to not listen and just assume. I think when I also talk about voice, one of the biggest things that, we've talked about as a team as well, is I'm hearing a lot of we

[00:27:39] and I'm not hearing enough of you. And by that I mean. We can't come out and say, we know that you're so tired. We know that you're doing all of these things and say, you're telling us that you're tired. You're telling us that you need some space or you need some tips on this. And by making that switch in kind of that voice that helps city mom understand that we are listening,

[00:28:02] Danielle: Ooh.

[00:28:03] That is a, that's a really powerful language shift. And it's amazing how adjusting a word from a we to a u can really make something washed and vague to very specific and like straight to the heart. I think that there's something too. The language of clarifying what is a really a we what is a you and it speaks straight to the heart of what I think we want, which is to be seen.

[00:28:30] There's something about your community that doesn't beat you over the head with messaging. That's one thing that I was really impressed with , is that you get the sense of the essence of what you're saying, but there's not like a slogan. But the sense of the community is so clear.

[00:28:47] Jeanine: Yeah.

[00:28:47] Danielle: Which I find really beautiful.

[00:28:49] Jeanine: I appreciate that. I think, one of the things that we've forever wrestled with was, is really that idea of sales.

[00:28:56] I am, I and my team has heard me say this a number of times. I've always been a bigger fan of storytelling over sales and, storytelling kind of an experience as opposed to, you should buy in today. Deadline is this day, you gotta get in now, join here. This is the link. Because we get sold on almost everything across our lives.

[00:29:18] And it's, something as little as, the gym to making a donation to a school, your kid's school to just, everything else you can think of under the sun. To me, it's important to continue promoting the essence of a community that you belong to as opposed to an idea that you need to buy into with dollars.

[00:29:37] And, that's one of the reasons that we transformed the city moms into a completely free membership.

[00:29:43] That also came out of COVID and hearing a lot of city moms say, I have to make some concessions right now. We had to shut off Netflix. We're not doing our Netflix subscription anymore because we're just so worried about budget.

[00:29:56] And, that 9 99 a month that we were initially charging for membership, I was like, no. Done. That's out.

[00:30:03] Danielle: Never

[00:30:03] Jeanine: We will never go back to a paid membership. It will always be free because it needs to be accessible to everyone.

[00:30:10] Danielle: So taking away a paid membership that sure, that money was budgeted and allocated for you to operate what you do, it sounded like it was absolutely the right call for your community and your business, but how did you know that that would work?

[00:30:26] Or did you

[00:30:27] Jeanine: It didn't. No. For a little bit it didn't work, and I'll say that because I think. A lot of us are parts of, Facebook communities that are very, spirited, maybe in some ways that, bring a lot of entertainment. And we were nervous that that would essentially be the transformation that we would undergo.

[00:30:47] But, we have all members incoming. Agree to specific member guidelines. And, the number one guideline that is in there is every mom, parents in her own perfect way. And we use that specific language because, in some of similar to a lot of things that we've talked about, the fact is we're all doing our absolute best that we can. And you need to be able to have some space held for you to do that.

[00:31:13] Rather than us identify our community based on your specific parenting model, we said, Hey, everyone is welcome here and we're going to honor you for being the parent that you are because we are all parenting in our own perfect way.

[00:31:26] Danielle: Yeah. And nobody knows. Yes. No one has any, nobody knows.

[00:31:31] That's always the gift of captain Hindsight, who comes in after a crisis and it's what should have happened? It's you know what studies are showing now. You're like, where were you before? I, I, so you talked about, advertising and with all of the products and content and methodologies that are targeted to parents, but more specifically moms, what are the values that you look for when you're filtering through? Who do you partner with? Who do you highlight? Who do you say yes to? Like, what's the value that you're really looking to offer?

[00:32:02] Jeanine: I'm so glad you're asking that because, I think the space that we sit in. We often are, seeing a lot of influencers and content creators that they are really working hard to grow their brand and do that by signing with any partner that they can. And you find that there can be a real, I don't wanna say a moral gap because again, I'm just coming off saying everyone parents their own perfect way.

[00:32:25] So everyone pulls content and creates content in their own perfect way. But, in, looking and evaluating the partners that we wanna work with, it's really critical to us that they offer a strong, supportive, product or experience for our members and for our followers. We do a lot of partnership with tourism, with attractions, that offer something for you to really be highlighted as the queen of your family.

[00:32:51] 'cause you're like, Hey. We're gonna go to Nashville for the weekend, and I've been able to put together a whole itinerary, thanks to the city moms maybe tipping me off about a couple things. But now I've gone out and sourced this great itinerary, or I have been able to enhance our nursery because we found this one product that the city moms recommended.

[00:33:09] All of that to say it's really important to us. We spend a lot of time vetting the products that we suggest we spend a lot of time working with or having conversations with the brands that we bring in. That's never just a, Hey, we want to, compensate you X and you guys promote us, and we'll be like, okay, perfect.

[00:33:25] There's a lot of time that we spend really making sure that is going to make a lot of sense. In fact, one of my favorite things to say is, no, Sarah will tell everyone this.

[00:33:33] Danielle: Tell me more about that.

[00:33:34] Jeanine: Yes. Just did this yesterday. I love when we are being, approached by a particular brand or a client or prospective partner.

[00:33:41] And I love going through that vetting process and saying, you know what? We spent some time looked into this and this isn't gonna work for us. Case in point, the brand I turned down yesterday is something that we actually use a lot. Sarah and I are big fans of a couple of their products.

[00:33:57] Danielle: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:58] Jeanine: And they approached us about a new launch they're doing and said, we would love to ship you, two of the new products, but we want all of this content, you need to send it to us for review.

[00:34:08] You can only post on the dates that we want. You need to release it all to us that we can use it for our future advertising. By the way, the cost of the products that we're sending you in total is $300. And, the amount of media that was gonna be attached to that from our side was about $5,000.

[00:34:26] We have a staff I need to pay, we have a team that, relies on us. We have a full following that relies on us to make sure that we're being authentic in what we are bringing forward. I talked to Sarah about it a little bit and I said, I'm gonna tell them no. And I'm gonna say there's a big value gap here.

[00:34:41] Not just from the official bottom line kind of payment side of this, but also because I never wanna put someone into a brand consideration when that brand's not considering them. Just considering their own needs and their own drivers.

[00:34:56] Danielle: Oh, that's so strong. And not an answer I expected, but when I so appreciated on a personal level, a professional level.

[00:35:04] I don't know, if you've ever done Myers-Briggs, it's a test that Oh yeah. There's so many beautiful like personality assessment profiles, but I'm an extroverted, intuitive feeler perceiver, so I'm all the, ooey, gooey side, the mussies. And, when I see people who maybe from the outside seem to have a very discerning methodology for how they make decisions.

[00:35:23] I find that so appealing because I'm such a heart led gut check, first kind of person, I don't always know why it's a yes or a no yet. It's like I feel it first, and then it works its way up into my brain and then whatever reasoning is sort of filtered through will come from that.

[00:35:41] But I love that you saw value in yourself, how you believed in the value of what you offer, and you also saw the gap in representing that product or that brand, that didn't fully appreciate the value you were. I just, I love that answer so much. I'll be thinking about that after this, so thank you.

[00:36:01] Jeanine: Yes, absolutely.

[00:36:02] Danielle: Absolutely. You have a new membership experience starting.

[00:36:05] We do very, very soon. This episode, I believe, will be being released mid-August, so, we could safely say it's live, what do you want people to know about what's coming and as far as what you can say, what do you want people to know so that if they wanna participate, get involved, they can.

[00:36:23] Jeanine: So our new city moms membership is, officially launching to our, we will be, rolling it out to our existing members starting August 1st, and then it will be available to everyone starting, early September.

[00:36:34] Danielle: Awesome.

[00:36:36] Jeanine: So we are shifting into a different platform than we have used previously. It's called Circle and it's a wonderful space where we not only can have our full national city mom community, you're gonna find chat groups where you can connect with other city moms across the country there, because, me having like toddler woes in Indianapolis is no different from something having toddler woes in Seattle, Washington.

[00:37:01] So why shouldn't you have access to that mom and her, lines of recommendation and such. So we'll have these national chat groups. We also have an opportunity, we'll be doing a lot of lives inside the community that are member exclusive, that we can connect you to some of these, brands and partners that we work with.

[00:37:17] And then we are doing nano communities inside of that so that you can hyper connect with women inside your own city. So Indianapolis obviously will be our first big pilot there, but we have Dallas and Cincinnati that are also existing inside, that nano community area. And we have, three other cities that we think are going to be quickly following in 2026 as well.

[00:37:40] Danielle: That's so incredible. Congratulations. It sounds like your own city mom social network. Yes. Yes, it totally is. I'm excited for everybody who's an existing member to get to benefit from that. And then the new members who continue to join to get involved in that.

[00:37:55] That's incredible.

[00:37:57] Jeanine: Thank you. Yeah, it's been one of Sarah's biggest passion projects as she's been getting her feet wet and she's done an incredible job with it. The other really exciting benefit is there are perks, not only for our national members, but then in your hyper local communities too.

[00:38:11] So, here in Indianapolis, we've got some great perks with, the Ile Jordan Museum, with the Children's Museum, even dry bar, face Foundry, 'cause we need space for us too, all of those exclusive perks will be part of that too.

[00:38:25] Danielle: Beautiful. So not just stuff for the family, but also like ways for moms to take care of themselves too. Exactly. Gorgeous. Yes. Well, Janine, I would be remiss if I signed off without asking you about your, don't cut your own bangs moment because I, it is good. So if you are good taking it away, I would love to hear

[00:38:43] Jeanine: yeah. I just wanna tell you, I love this so much. I've listened to so many of your other podcasts and these are the moments I just feel like really are the ones that sit with me the most so I'm so thrilled that you have this as kind of just, that final vehicle to the podcast content.

[00:38:59] But mine's a little different because there is, a little sadness tied to it, but it brings a great lesson.

[00:39:05] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:39:05] Jeanine: So I had mentioned that I worked in advertising for 10 years. I worked on the agency side and I was working in Detroit at the time. And I had a newborn. My daughter was a newborn, and then I had my son who was three years old at the time, and my client was based out of Germany.

[00:39:25] It's a very large grocery chain that happens to be based in Germany and they have a lot of outputs here in the US And at the time, we were all going through just a horrible recession in the world. And I was working about 60 to 70 hours a week. Advertising is one of those, especially on agency side.

[00:39:44] It's one of those industries. It is go, go, go. And it is never stopping. My husband also works in advertising. It's actually how we met. He at the time was doing about 90 hours a week. We never saw each other, we rarely saw the kids. So my day normally started around 3:00 AM because that's when the German, office was open.

[00:40:03] And it normally coincided with the time I was feeding my newborn in the middle of the night. So I would have my phone with me, feeding her, scrolling through email and catching up with the German team, put her back to sleep. Then, I would get up around six when my toddler was awake and finally get the two of them off to daycare.

[00:40:18] And I made the decision, which a male boss of mine later told me was selfish to go work out at a gym that was halfway between daycare and, work every day. So I didn't get into the office until around 8 45. Technically our office started at nine. I would work absolutely all day and then race out of my office at 5 51 because if I could leave at 5 51, I could literally run down the street to our parking garage, get in my car, drive as fast as I could at daycare and be there before the seven minute grace period was over.

[00:40:50] Danielle: You had it down to the minute?

[00:40:52] Jeanine: Down to the minute and. It was coming at a time where it was just, I was so burnt out. My husband was so burnt out this one day I got to daycare. My kids were always the final ones getting picked up. And I had a phrase for my toddler at the time where I'd always say, mommy always comes back.

[00:41:11] I would say that to him every morning when I dropped him off. And I ran into daycare this day and my son was crying. I could hear him in the toddler room. So I grabbed the newborn. She was already in her carrier. And then I went in to pick him up and he's crying. And I said, honey, I'm here.

[00:41:26] And I got down and gave him a hug. And I said, sweetie, what do I always say? Mommy always comes, Ooh, this makes me tear up. Even think about all this years later. And he goes Last, mommy always comes last. And that was the most soul crushing thing I had ever heard in my life. And I cried the entire way home.

[00:41:47] Danielle: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:48] Jeanine: And we put the kids down to bed after dinner and after their bath, and I turned to my husband, I said, we cannot do this anymore. I'm done. We're done. We can't keep this schedule going. This is just, this is not gonna sustain us anymore. And we made the decision that night that was the end of this work experience for us.

[00:42:08] And, we immediately put resumes and feelers out and that is what made, the transition to Indianapolis possible. It took months, but we eventually found ourselves here and it was the best decision that we ever made.

[00:42:21] And what it all came down to was in my don't cut your own bangs moment, was it is okay to say no. It is okay to take that stop. And is it okay to invest in yourself and your family if that's what really matters to you? I think maybe that's what the critical note is. It's okay to invest what matters to you.

[00:42:39] To me, that has always been the moment that I have seen as a turning point and, has really been probably the most critical thing for me.

[00:42:48] Danielle: Thank you so much for that story that my whole body, it was waves and waves went through, with that and you, when you said it earlier in the interview, but I can really feel the truth of that in a different way.

[00:43:05] That you love saying no. Yeah, because I think what I hear in that is it's a fully embodied no is also a yes to something else.

[00:43:17] Jeanine: Yes,

[00:43:18] Danielle: it is its own. Yes. Like I'm saying no to this offer to position your brand. And I'm saying yes to my integrity. I'm saying no to the needs and the demands that this company and this industry has for me and my life.

[00:43:35] And I'm saying yes to my son. Yeah, my infant, like I'm saying yes to me. Oh, I, that reminded me, I hadn't thought of this in so long, but it brought me back to when I. Made the decision to start my, when my husband and I made the decision to start to try to get pregnant, the journey was, knowing what I know now, far less complicated than it is for many.

[00:44:01] But it didn't happen the way I thought it would. And that is almost always where suffering comes from me. When there's an unmet expectation and I could, you're taught your whole life. It's like if you look at a penis or sit on a toilet seat wrong you never know how you're gonna get pregnant. So when you first start trying it like, what do you mean it didn't happen right away? What do you mean? My first pregnancy I was a new-ish therapist. I think I had been practicing for, I'm gonna say two and a half, two and a half-ish years, three, maybe three.

[00:44:28] But I had, the process of going back to grad school, finding I didn't have the credits I needed to even qualify to apply to the grad program. All of this work and effort. It was like once I set my sights on, I think this is something I want for myself, there was almost immediately after, oh my God.

[00:44:46] But I figured that out so late in life and I gotta go, go, go, go, go. So I burnt myself to a crisp getting through all of the hoops I needed to get through to do the job. And I didn't realize the grind on my body, on my mind, on my life. I just didn't see it. I joked that it felt like the road runner and coyote running off the cliff and you didn't realize you were over the cliff until you looked down and my moment of looking down and falling was when I lost that first pregnancy.

[00:45:14] And, I don't blame myself for it. It's not that. But there was a clarity in the grief and I think the grief I felt in my own body. Yeah. Your son spoke his truth to you. I felt like my body was, the grief in my body was revealing a truth to me that I wasn't willing to see, which was

[00:45:36] there's no room for me in this life that I've built and I have to cut back. And it brought up like being a good girl, being a strong woman, being a strong feminist, being a diligent employee, being reliable, all of these roles and these external things that I was chasing in the pursuit of being really good at my job.

[00:45:58] Mm-hmm. That loss was just, oh, actually none of this matters as much as I thought it did. Not that it doesn't matter, but it didn't matter because I thought it did and my hours cut dramatically back and it didn't work for the practice that I was working for before the hours that I would be willing to do.

[00:46:18] But then I realized with my husband's support that, oh, I actually can go out on my own. And life has unfolded. It wasn't like magically overnight any more than city moms was created magically, overnight. But it got you to Indianapolis. Mm-hmm. It's like the breadcrumb trail that you were following to freedom led you to something so beautiful that you probably couldn't have imagined at that day at your son's daycare picking them up.

[00:46:43] Jeanine: Absolutely. And I think, it's kind of the power of listening and that's one of the things I love so much about your podcast is being able to listen to the other stories that come from your guests and really, that you have the ability to tease out such a gift and clearly the path that you have followed has allowed you to be there too, in, that space of,

[00:47:05] beauty and it's just, it's wonderful.

[00:47:08] Danielle: Thank you. Thank you, Janine. Thank you so much. I'm going to bring us to a close 'cause we can't get any better. That was so, great. I will definitely encourage, again, for everybody listening to please visit the show notes before you click back into your life and take your AirPods out or, get off of your walk or wherever you are in life.

[00:47:29] Like to hop over the show notes, check out city moms, follow them on social media. They make it very easy to find what you need to know, so all the places you can follow them.

[00:47:37] But thank you again. Thank you. Thank you Janine. And,

[00:47:40] Jeanine: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:47:42] ​

[00:47:42] ​

[00:47:44] ​

[00:48:52] ​

[00:50:11] Thank you so much for joining me in this week's episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I hope that you enjoyed listening because I thoroughly enjoyed making it. Before you hop away, please check out the show notes, everything that we mentioned here in this conversation, as well as links that you can stay connected with me. As well as everything needed to connect with city moms. Please remember to rate and review and subscribe to the podcast. It helps the podcast grow. It helps other people find this that could benefit from it too. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:50:37] Your attention means the world, and I hope you continue to have a wonderful day.

In this episode of 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs,' host Danielle Ireland introduces John Kippen, a resilience and empowerment coach, magician, and motivational speaker. John shares his incredible journey of overcoming a life-threatening brain tumor and how it transformed his life and career. 

Throughout the episode, John discusses his healing journey, the power of vulnerability, and the importance of facing one's limiting beliefs. He also reveals the origins of his unique phrase 'impossible really means I am possible' and offers a special gift to listeners. Tune in to uncover valuable wisdom nuggets and be inspired by John's story of triumph over adversity.

 

00:00 Introduction to the Episode

00:40 Meet John Kippen: A Multihyphenate Talent

01:23 John's Life-Altering Diagnosis

05:46 The Surgery and Its Aftermath

08:04 The Road to Recovery

13:30 Embracing the New Normal

17:29 The Power of Truth and Magic

29:14 The Power of Magic and Connection

29:31 Introducing Treasured: A Journal for Self-Discovery

30:44 The Magic of Personal Connection

32:59 Overcoming Personal Struggles Through Magic

34:38 The Journey to Self-Acceptance

35:42 The Importance of Asking and Vulnerability

50:24 The TED Talk Experience

54:34 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

 

RATE, REVIEW, SUBSCRIBE TO “DON’T CUT YOUR OWN BANGS” 

Like your favorite recipe or song, the best things in life are shared. When you rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast, your engagement helps me connect  with other listeners just like you. Plus, subscriptions just make life easier for everybody. It's one less thing for you to think about and you can easily keep up to date on everything that’s new. So, please rate, review, and subscribe today. 

 

DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.

 

JOHN KIPPEN:

https://www.ted.com/talks/john_kippen_being_different_is_my_super_power_magic_saved_my_life

 

https://www.johnkippen.com

 

DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

Website: https://danielleireland.com/

The Treasured Journal: https://danielleireland.com/journal

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danielleireland_lcsw

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dontcutyourownbangspod?_t=ZP-8yFHmVNPKtq&_r=1

Transcript:

 

John Kippen Edited Interview

[00:00:00]

[00:00:07] Hello. Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are catching an episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. And today I have the great pleasure of introducing you to someone I can now call a new friend John Kippen. John is a multihyphenate. He has had quite a life and he's an excellent storyteller. So this episode you're gonna wanna buckle up.

[00:00:31] It is so good. Get those AirPods in, go on your walk, get safely in your car, get ready to listen because this is just an absolutely beautiful episode. But let me tell you a little bit about John. John is a resilience and empowerment coach. He was and is the CEO of a very successful IT company.

[00:00:49] He was a main stage performer at the Magic Castle in Los Angeles, so if that just gives you a little insight, is the level of his magic. He is a motivational speaker. He's a life coach, and. He has a TED talk that has received over a million views. And the heartbeat of this TED talk is how he triumphs over tragedy with a diagnosis of a tumor the size of a golf ball that is separating his brainstem and the procedure he needed to save his life, changed his life forever.

[00:01:23] Doing the work of healing does not come easily to anyone, but as John so beautifully puts in this episode, if John can do it, you can do it. He's using his stories, his vulnerable and raw experiences, and talking about not only what happened to him, but how he moved through the impossible.

[00:01:45] He actually coins a phrase that I love and I'm going to keep. Which is that impossible really means I am possible. So the ultimate magic trick, the ultimate illusion is what your limiting beliefs are about yourself, and how do you use facing those fears and those limiting beliefs to transform your life.

[00:02:08] And in John's case, he takes that healing and offers it as a gift to us. As listeners to his clients and his coaching practice to the readers of his book, he has authored a book The Forward by None other than the Jamie Lee Curtis from all of the places. You know her most recently. The Bear where she won an Emmy, but everything everywhere, all at once.

[00:02:32] She and John are buds, and she believes in him and believes in his work, and as a champion of that work, it just adds a little extra sparkle and fairy dust to the beautiful work that he's already doing to say that he's been vetted by someone who is so sparkly and magnetic and also deeply entrenched in holding space for the truth and honoring the truth.

[00:02:52] This is a heartfelt episode, so what I would recommend. If you're in a place to do so is you might wanna jot some notes down because John drops some beautiful wisdom nuggets in this episode. And the book that he authored is playing The Hand You're Dealt. And what I wanna share too, we talk about it in the episode, but I wanna highlight this 'cause it's really important.

[00:03:12] John is giving everyone who listens to the episode a free gift, but it is not linked in the show notes. It is only available to those of you who listen. It's a special little surprise embedded in the episode that you have to listen to find, but it is a free gift from him to you. So without further ado, get ready to sit back, relax, and enjoy the beautiful wisdom of John Kippen.

[00:03:35] ​

[00:03:36] Kippen, multihyphenate resilience and empowerment, coach magician, keynote speaker, author, and all around. Nice guy. Thank you for joining me today on the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs podcast.

[00:03:47] Danielle: Hollywood legend wrote the forward of his beautiful book, playing the Hand You're Dealt Forward by the one and Only Take It Away, John, Jamie

[00:03:58] John: Lee Curtis.

[00:03:59] Danielle: Jamie Lee Curtis. Yes. So you have to stay and listen to the entire episode because he's going to tease out a special little giveaway that will only be revealed in the audio.

[00:04:10] So you gotta listen. It's not gonna be linked in the show notes, folks. So buckle up, sit down. This is gonna be a great episode with a fun gift for you, a special little dose of magic hidden inside. So, John, you, I mean, all the different fun things that we listed about what you do. You're a magician, you're a motivational speaker, you're a coach.

[00:04:30] What I know doing the work I do as a therapist is the skills and trade that you're building your life on. Those were skills that they were. Hard one, like nobody chooses, in my opinion and in my experience, no one chooses to go into a helping profession that hasn't needed help in their life. It's like the, our healing becomes our medicine.

[00:04:54] And I really wanna learn about not just what you offer, but your healing journey that put you in the unique position you're in to do the work you do. So, welcome and I'd love to hear from you.

[00:05:05] John: So just quickly, the Reader's Digest version of my backstory. Grew up Los Angeles, middle class family, two great parents loving, no sisters or brothers, had everything I needed.

[00:05:18] They sent me to a nice school and, I got into theater, started doing theater, in college. I studied theater and became the big man on campus because pretty much I grabbed every opportunity that presented itself. Started a computer company out of college. 'cause I'm a creative problem solver.

[00:05:38] That's the thread that goes through everything I do in my life.

[00:05:42] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:42] John: I look at a problem, I say, how am I gonna solve that?

[00:05:45] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:46] John: And then in June of July of 2002, I was diagnosed with a four half centimeter brain tumor called an acoustic neuroma.

[00:05:55] Danielle: Yes. And this was, so it was slowly severing your brainstem? Correct.

[00:05:59] John: It was displacing the brainstem. Causing not only hearing issues, but dizziness upon standing or walking.

[00:06:07] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:08] John: I had to have something done with it. I would not have survived.

[00:06:12] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:14] John: And. It was a whirlwind , I went and saw the doctor who finally diagnosed it after seeing him the MRI films, and he, he had no bedside manner.

[00:06:25] I remember sitting on the examining room table, right. And the, the tissue paper is crinkling under my butt. Mm-hmm. I could feel the, I could sense the temperature. I'm heightened sensitivity.

[00:06:37] And he looks up at the MRI after talking to a neurosurgeon, and he turns around and says, John, you have a four and a half centimeter brain tumor.

[00:06:46] It's killing you. We're operating you on Friday. You're gonna go deaf in your left ear, and there's a possibility for some facial weakness. We're gonna do everything we can to prevent that. And he left

[00:07:01] Danielle: the room. So he knew, and in his own. Brash in abrupt way, essentially prepared you for the outcome and challenges that would come assuming the surgery was a success?

[00:07:17] John: Yeah. He is a world renowned acoustic neuroma surgeon. He's one of the guys you go to, when you have this kind of tumor and that's all he does. Wow. But he literally left the room and I'm sitting there and I didn't bring anybody in and

[00:07:31] yeah.

[00:07:32] John: A tip to anyone who's potentially going in for a serious diagnosis.

[00:07:36] Yeah.

[00:07:37] John: Bring a friend or a family member.

[00:07:39] Because it goes in one ear and out the other, you're in shock. Right. Right. When you get home and you say, wait a minute, he said that surgery gonna be four hours or 14 hours or 20. How, how long ago and you have all these questions. Yeah. And you know, getting ahold of the doctor to ask them again is just not the way our medical system works.

[00:08:01] He's back to back, to back to back patients.

[00:08:04] So, I checked in the night before, they did blood tests and I tried to get an hour or two sleep, 6:00 AM my clockwork the orderly came in and said, okay, get naked, get on this cold gurney. What a sheet over you and we're going take you to the operating room.

[00:08:21] Danielle: I wanna pause your story for a moment. 'cause there's a couple things that I, I wanna tease out a little. So one is you, the way that you tell your story, so well probably because you've told it on stages, you've shared it with others, you've written about it. There is something about a trauma.

[00:08:37] That really marks the sort of BCAD of life. And the way you shared, I felt like I was in the room with you when you were getting this bomb of news dropped on you so you were theater trained, theater kid, a creative person, a creative problem solver, and a business owner.

[00:08:57] Like I, I think about that often when people are experiencing trauma. What, what was life sort of the, the illusion of normalcy. The, the, you know, the predictability of this is my life and this is my to-do list and this is my calendar. So before that moment, you were just a guy on the west coast running a business.

[00:09:17] Is that right?

[00:09:18] John: Very successful business.

[00:09:19] Danielle: And I, I just wanna share briefly too, I haven't met too many other only children. Theater background 'cause that's me too.

[00:09:30] John: Oh, really?

[00:09:31] Danielle: I'm an only child and I was a theater major and started acting when I was 13, so before. But, the creative problem solver, God, my theater background has paid dividends in ways I didn't know at the time.

[00:09:42] I didn't know that when I was preparing for this interview, but now that you've said that, it's like that thing that I couldn't put my finger on has clicked into place.

[00:09:49] John: I love doing improv.

[00:09:51] Improv is the, you know, everybody talks about being in the moment.

[00:09:57] Yeah.

[00:09:57] John: What does that really mean, being in the moment?

[00:10:00] When you do improv, you have to be in the moment. Otherwise you fall flat. And everybody, you're doing improv looks at you going. Well, it's your turn.

[00:10:10] Danielle: You've tapped in. Now you've gotta say something. How are you gonna move the story forward?

[00:10:14] Exactly. I feel most alive when I'm engaged in moments like that. And I, it's, I'm not a, a adrenaline junkie, but I would say that's my high, it's the, rush of connecting with somebody like that. So you were running a very successful business. This bomb has dropped.

[00:10:32] You can barely remember what you were told and what your life is likely going to be. Assuming everything goes well, what is going to happen when you wake up off your op? And how long was your operation?

[00:10:46] John: 15 hours.

[00:10:48] Danielle: And the surgery was a success. They were able to remove the golf ice tumor.

[00:10:52] Yeah. So they removed the fall sized tumor.

[00:10:54] John: I didn't have time to think, you know, I got one of my guys who worked for me told him that he was gonna be running the company for a month or two. He agreed.

[00:11:05] Mm-hmm.

[00:11:05] John: Had to shovel up some more money to get him to do it, but, you know, it is what it is. You do what you have to do.

[00:11:11] Yeah. And then,, I just tried to think positively, hope for the best. Plan for the worst. You know, I had someone gonna stay with me the first week, make food because I just wanted to recover and I didn't know what it was gonna be like.

[00:11:27] Danielle: Yeah. You're like, I just need a week to recover, and then I'm just gonna hop back into life, hopefully.

[00:11:31] John: Rolling the gurney into the surgical, prep area.

[00:11:35] The nurse saying, Hey John, you know, we know we have to shape after your head. You want me to do it now or after you're under.

[00:11:42] Danielle: So you didn't even know that they were gonna shave your head. Well, I didn't think about it.

[00:11:48] John: I mean, if I had thought about it, I got a shaved part of my head.

[00:11:51] Danielle: Right.

[00:11:52] John: I said to her, please.

[00:11:56] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:11:58] John: And so, they roll me into the operating room. You got these really bright lights, , blinding you, and you're laying there and they're like, okay, you're gonna count back toward five.

[00:12:09] The next thing I know, I hear faint voices and it was like I was 30 meters deep in a pool. Struggling to get to the surface. And I remember this like it was yesterday, literally trying to swim to the service to regain consciousness.

[00:12:26] And finally when I got enough, I realized that my dad was sitting on the edge of my bed holding my hand,

[00:12:34] and

[00:12:34] John: he was smiling at me, but I didn't see my mom.

[00:12:40] So I asked my dad for my glasses and he handed me the glasses. And I remember trying to put the, and then I realized my head's bandage.

[00:12:48] Danielle: Oh, right.

[00:12:50] John: So I had to figure out how to get the glasses in Cockeye to get 'em on my face, right?

[00:12:55] And the look on her face was one of horror. What did these butchers do to my son's face? And at that point, I didn't know my face was paralyzed. Because I have full feeling, I just can't move it.

[00:13:10] Danielle: So you currently, you still have full feeling in your face. You just lost mobility,

[00:13:14] John: so I didn't really understand what that look was.

[00:13:18] Danielle: Right. How could you?

[00:13:19] John: And then my mom handed me her compact makeup.

[00:13:22] And I opened it up and I'm like, holy crap. And then, I'm still getting

[00:13:30] accustomed to, the one thing I noticed is leading into surgery, I was constantly dizzy and that dizziness was gone.

[00:13:38] Danielle: Wow.

[00:13:39] John: And that was like, oh my God, what a relief.

[00:13:42] Mm-hmm.

[00:13:43] John: So the doctor finally made his way in and I was like, so when's my face gonna move? And he said, John, we were, successful.

[00:13:50] The tumors removed. Right when we were close the incision, your face stopped moving. But we think it's just to do the swelling, and once the swelling goes down, your face should start moving again. So I'm like, okay. I can handle that. That's a, it's not a permanent thing. I can deal with it.

[00:14:05] So I'm in the hospital a week and, they're like, when you can do three laps around the hospital floor, without a walker, we'll send you home.

[00:14:16] So that became my goal. I remember getting outta bed and then they said, no, no, no. Wait for the, I said, no. The doctor said that I need to rock three laps around.

[00:14:26] I want to get the hell out of here

[00:14:28] Five days I got home. My dad drove me home and I sat on my couch and now I'm like, okay, I can start healing and check email here and there. And I was taking lots of naps. And then I coughed and I touched the back of my neck and it was wet.

[00:14:45] Mm.

[00:14:47] John: Oh, it was a spinal fluid leak on the base of the incision.

[00:14:51] Whew.

[00:14:53] John: So immediately I called the doctor's office and the said, oh, get your ass back here. And I went back to the hospital three times with them to redo the bandaging to try to prevent the leak.

[00:15:05] Danielle: Wait, you call the hospital. Hey, their spinal fluid leaking out of my surgical incision. And they're like, yeah, you should get in a car and drive yourself to the hospital.

[00:15:16] John: They didn't say how I should get to the hospital.

[00:15:19] Danielle: Okay. Fair, fair. But that,

[00:15:22] okay. Wow. '

[00:15:24] John: cause that's not good.

[00:15:25] And there was potential for getting, spinal meningitis in that. From what I understand is one of the most extreme pains out there.

[00:15:35] Okay.

[00:15:35] John: I went back and forth three different times over that week.

[00:15:39] They tried to, it was just as right behind my ear, right at the base of the incision. So, there was no way that they were going to be able to, put a pressure manage to keep that and so it could start healing.

[00:15:51] Danielle: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:52] John: So they finally said, all right, tomorrow you're gonna come in and we're gonna, redo the incision and pull more belly fat outta your belly to fill the hole.

[00:16:01] And Yeah. This time they used staples, man, thick Frankenstein.

[00:16:07] All the way up.

[00:16:08] But then I'm like, I was only in the hospital for a day. And then, and I'm like, okay, I can relax. I remember getting up and brushing my teeth, you know, and I'm looking at the mirror and God, , I don't recognize that guy.

[00:16:24] Yeah. And I got rid of all the mirrors in my house.

[00:16:30] I didn't want a constant reminder.

[00:16:33] My face was screwed up.

[00:16:34] Danielle: I, there's so much specificity to what is uniquely your story.

[00:16:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:47] Danielle: But what I have found is when people. Are able to share elements of their experience. It's when you go into the specificity of what you experienced. I can see myself in so many elements of your story in my own, like when we get in deeper, it becomes somehow more accessible and universal.

[00:17:16] And in that way, you're not alone, even though it happened to you and that detail about your removing the mirrors from your home. It, it brings me to something I really wanted to ask you about. You share by saying, and then also , by, actually demonstrating in your TED talk that, once you began the healing process of really addressing your depression after your operation, that, the story, it led you to magic, literally. And I also think in a more magical way, beyond performing an illusion. And I know not to call it a trick, I learned that from arrested development.

[00:18:03] But, there's something you said that I wanted to quote that it's amazing how accepting kids are of the truth. You open up your TED talk, which I will link in the show notes so people can see. But that you mentioned that this in a way that your permission and your humor and your honesty, it created levity and lightness.

[00:18:27] For something that would be considered maybe so precious and heavy. And what I wanna speak to, and open up a question if that's okay, is, I'm curious what your relationship with the truth is because I think humor in its highest expression is allowing us to laugh at something that we see the truth in.

[00:18:49] And yet it's this razor's edge between laughing at someone or laughing at something versus inviting us to laugh at the, the human experience that we maybe don't know how to name or express in another way. But I wanna know personally for you, what your relationship is with the truth and the value of embracing it.

[00:19:13] And then in your line of work as a coach, where do you see people struggle with it?

[00:19:19] John: Truth is an illusion.

[00:19:21] Danielle: Ooh, tell me more. That just, that was a zingy response that you popped right out. Please tell me more.

[00:19:28] John: Yeah. Truth. Everybody has their own truth.

[00:19:31] Danielle: Oh, well there you go.

[00:19:32] John: Their own perspective,

[00:19:34] Danielle: uhhuh,

[00:19:35] John: And the truth is formed out of your limiting beliefs.

[00:19:41] Danielle: So the truth is formed out of your limited beliefs,

[00:19:44] John: your limiting beliefs.

[00:19:45] Danielle: Limiting beliefs. Okay.

[00:19:47] John: Yeah.

[00:19:48] I just wanted to take a slight step back.

[00:19:50] Danielle: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:51] John: I told you this was gonna be the Reader's Digest version.

[00:19:54] Danielle: Yes.

[00:19:54] John: But it took me 12 years

[00:19:57] To come out of that hiding. Wow. 12 years.

[00:20:02] Danielle: How old were you when you had your operation?

[00:20:05] John: 33.

[00:20:06] Danielle: 33. Okay.

[00:20:08] John: And fortunately for me, I could work from home. But I miss so many celebrations with friends and family. 'cause I just didn't want to have to explain it. I didn't want to have to deal with the looks, , and I tell this story on my TED Talk and in my book. You know, at a restaurant I wanted to get a burger at Tony Aroma's. And I'm sitting there by myself and in a booth, and there's a booth right in front of me and there's a family with a kid, two parents and a kid. And the kid's squirming and gets up and turns around and is now on his knees on the bench and looking at me.

[00:20:44] And he gets up and he comes over and he says, Mr, what's wrong with your face? And in that moment, I didn't want to have a five or 6-year-old come over and Right. And I'm like, okay, I had the strength to come out and go to a restaurant. I have to deal with this. So I started talking to this little boy

[00:21:06] Danielle: Mm.

[00:21:07] John: And saying, I had a medical procedure that caused me not to with my face before I could continue his mom grabbing him

[00:21:16] mm-hmm.

[00:21:17] John: The arm and drug him back and said, don't bother him. The nice man, he has enough troubles already. And I couldn't leave it there.

[00:21:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:27] John: So I had to go to the little boy and I knelt down and I got eye level and I said, I love my new face because it's different.

[00:21:34] It's different just like yours. And I remember it like it was yesterday, he took his fingers and he tried to distort his face to be crooked like mine. And he turned to his mom and said, look, mom, I could do that too. And then he went back to eating his meal. His question was answered.

[00:21:56] He had no judgment. And his parents were like, holy crap, did we just learn a lesson? How to raise our child?

[00:22:03] They whispered, thank you on their way out.

[00:22:07] Danielle: But there is something I, there, there's something to that woman's response to you that really resonated with me.

[00:22:14] And it also, highlights the point you made so well about the, essentially the truth being relative. Because she projected onto you what her perception of your life was. Don't bother the nice man one, she didn't know you were nice, though. You are. But she didn't know that. Right. And she also didn't know what your troubles were or weren't, and she assumed that.

[00:22:39] John: But I always wonder what her motives were.

[00:22:41] Danielle: Right.

[00:22:42] John: was it to make me comfortable or was it to make her and her son comfortable

[00:22:48] Danielle: it for her? I think so.

[00:22:50] John: And that's how I took it.

[00:22:51] Danielle: I remember. So I have two children and I was pregnant once before and lost that pregnancy.

[00:22:57] 12 weeks in. And I haven't thought about this in a very long time, but I remember going into, a annual doctor's appointment and she saw on the chart that I was listed as pregnant and clearly now was not. And it was in her own discomfort of not, she was asking me about the baby thinking, 'cause she was not my ob, GYN it was a different type of doctor.

[00:23:20] And, she caught. Oh, and then I had sort of explained to her what that meant, and then she said, well, I'm sure, you blame yourself and I want you to know it's not your fault. Like she took her discomfort and tried to turn it into, she positioned herself above as someone who knew what he was experiencing and wanted to offer me this sympathy that was, one, she was wrong.

[00:23:45] I totally misplaced. Yeah. I didn't blame myself. And it, that, that moment was such an extension of her own inability to hold the moment and the discomfort of the moment, and, tried to offer it up as a gift for me, which that's, yeah.

[00:24:03] John: It's your perception of how you deal with that.

[00:24:06] Danielle: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:07] John: Losing a child can be. Empowering because you know that you can try again and get a child that is not gonna have any kind of defects and is gonna have a good life. And you know whether or not you believe in God or not.

[00:24:24] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:24:25] John: Things happen for a reason and we don't always understand the reason for them.

[00:24:30] Danielle: I don't know if it, what the reason was, but I can say a gift from that was that somebody who lived with a very active monkey mind and a lot of head trash and some anxiety in the experience of the early grief, not for very long, but there was a moment in time where my mind was quiet, not numb, but quiet.

[00:24:55] And it helped me realize, oh, there's the observer within me. Then there are the different conversations that are happening in my head that aren't me, which are maybe the perceptions that I call truth sometimes I wanna bring that same question of truth, which you had an answer I was not expecting, which I love when I never see it coming, so thank you.

[00:25:18] Where do you see your clients? Because you're a coach, right? You are taking your healing and offering it as medicine to people that are trying to make a connection in their own life. So where do you see people that you work with? Struggle with the truth?

[00:25:36] John: Everybody's hiding from someone something in their life.

[00:25:40] They have buried something so deep and it keeps them from moving forward in their lives. 'cause it erodes their self-confidence.

[00:25:50] That's what I learned through my love for performing magic.

[00:25:58] Going to the magic castle, sitting at a table with a paralyzed face.

[00:26:03] Yeah. I'm this overweight guy with balding, balding with a paralyzed face. And I could sit at a table and have people come to me. I tell this story sometimes, that the Magic Castle is a place where you have to get dressed up to the nines, you know? And women love to get dressed up

[00:26:22] Danielle: That's true.

[00:26:23] John: They're wearing their best outfits, right? And all of a sudden I'd have five or six women sitting at the table, and their reactions are very guarded.

[00:26:34] Hmm.

[00:26:36] John: You know, they're sitting there with their legs and arms crossed.

[00:26:39] Hmm

[00:26:40] John: they're leaning back. They have a smile that's just more of a grin.

[00:26:45] Mm-hmm. '

[00:26:47] John: cause I don't know what I'm about. Sure. They don't know if I'm gonna be inappropriate, if I'm gonna come onto them, if I'm what it is. So they have no expectations other than they're gonna see some magic.

[00:26:58] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:59] John: So I start my act saying, hi guys. My name is John and I'm doing magic all my life.

[00:27:05] But in 2 0 2 I had a brain tumor. And when they cut over my head, they traumatized medication, nerve offense, a paralyzed face. But something happened to me on that talk table that day, Danielle.

[00:27:16] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:17] John: I'm not sure what it was because I was unconscious. All I know is I recovered. I realized I had acquired some new skills and I pause.

[00:27:29] Yeah. And I wait for everybody to get on the edge of their seat. Like, what happened, John, what? Skills. Skills I could acquire. I'm having brain surgery.

[00:27:40] Mm-hmm. I

[00:27:41] John: looked to my right and I looked to my left like it's the biggest secret.

[00:27:45] Lean in and I whisper in a loud voice as I am able to visualize people's thoughts. And then I do some mental magic mentalism. Love it. And what I just did was I turned my biggest challenge into a superpower.

[00:28:07] Danielle: Yes, you did. And I wanna pause you because when you said that in your talk, have, have you read Elizabeth Gilbert's book, big Magic?

[00:28:15] Yes.

[00:28:15] Danielle: When she talks about trickster energy, I was like, John Kippen is a freaking trickster.

[00:28:22] That is trickster energy that you can shift. Before someone's very eyes. It's like you are performing magic and you are performing magic. You shifted before them and you invited them, your audience to see beyond their own limiting beliefs, their own projected truth.

[00:28:47] John: They were distracted. They wanted to know why it was paralyzed, but they couldn't ask, did he have a stroke? Did he have be palsy? What was the reason? So I found them being distracted when I was performing. So I got that outta way in the first two minutes.

[00:29:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:01] John: I explained why my face is paralyzed.

[00:29:03] And now I treat it as the experience is now I'm able to do superhuman things.

[00:29:10] And now they're like, okay, cool. So as I perform

[00:29:16] I focus on the spectator. Magic happens in your mind as a spectator.

[00:29:22] Danielle: Oh, I love that magic happens in your mind

[00:29:26] ​

[00:29:31] If you've ever wanted to start a journaling practice but didn't know where to start, or if you've been journaling off and on your whole life, but you're like, I wanna take this work deeper, I've got you covered. I've written a journal called Treasured, a Journal for unearthing you. It's broken down into seven key areas of your life, filled with stories, sentence stems, prompts, questions, and exercises.

[00:29:51] All rooted in the work that I do with actual clients in my therapy sessions. I have given these examples to clients in sessions as homework, and they come back with insights that allow us to do such incredible work. This is something you can do in the privacy of your own home, whether you're in therapy or not.

[00:30:10] It has context, it has guides. And hopefully some safety bumpers to help digging a little deeper feel possible, accessible and safe. You don't have to do this alone. And there's also a guided treasured meditation series that accompanies each section in the journal to help ease you into the processing state.

[00:30:29] So my hope is to help guide you into feeling more secure with the most important relationship in your life, the one between you and you. Hop on over to the show notes and grab your copy today. And now back to the episode.​

[00:30:44] John: Magic is what you see in your mind or someone else sees in their mind.

[00:30:49] Magic is that thing that immediately makes you present.

[00:30:56] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:30:57] John: And your, all of your sensors are now in a heightened state , whether it's a sunset or a beautiful beach or a beautiful woman or a magic trick or whatever it is, there's that sense of awe and wonder.

[00:31:15] So as I would start to take each spectator, I would learn their names.

[00:31:19] And I would use their names throughout the show.

[00:31:22] Danielle: People love that.

[00:31:23] John: People, I ask them, the one word in everybody's language that they love to hear the most is their own name . and so I use that as a way of engaging the audience.

[00:31:33] They start leaning in and now they've got real smiles on their face

[00:31:37] and I can literally see this wall that women in today's society are forced to put up as a self-protection mechanism.

[00:31:45] Yeah.

[00:31:46] John: I see this wall start to grow as they start to identify with me and they're like, I'm okay being myself.

[00:31:54] And then the end of this

[00:31:56] they're asking permission to hug me.

[00:31:58] And , having a creative mind, I wanted to understand. What that is. What that, what was going on.

[00:32:06] Danielle: You also, not only through performing magic, inviting the curiosity you could see in other people's faces into your opening act essentially, or your sleight of hand.

[00:32:17] I'm gonna show you this over here so that you can not see what's coming here. Vulnerability in its purest form is magic because it's the one thing sharing the story you feel like you couldn't share. Letting somebody see the one part of you that you would never let anybody see 'cause you were so utterly convinced you would be outed or you would be cast out by exposing that vulnerability is the birthplace of true connection.

[00:32:47] Yeah. Which is the ultimate magic trick. It's, it's like what they say in nightmares, if you stop and face the thing that's chasing you, it, it can't chase you anymore in the dream. And so you spent a decade, did I remember that correctly, you wanted to be a main stage performer at the Magic Castle?

[00:33:06] It took you about 10 years and you did it.

[00:33:08] John: I did.

[00:33:09] Yeah.

[00:33:09] Danielle: 10 years.

[00:33:11] John: Yeah.

[00:33:12] Danielle: 10 years.

[00:33:13] John: It was my creative coping mechanism. I had hit rock bottom, was I suicidal? No, not really. But I was unhappy.

[00:33:25] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:33:26] John: I was, my girlfriend left me, and, fortunately I had a job that I could focus on. But I needed something more. And through sharing something so personal and tying magic into it and making it a positive instead of a negative

[00:33:45] people are attracted to it.

[00:33:49] Danielle: Yeah. Well, because you're holding fire in your hand. Yeah. You're not just saying it's possible, but you're living. You're turning it into a performance, which I think for an artist is one of the most selfless, beautiful acts.

[00:34:11] John: It's what separates great artists from mediocre artists. What is he giving me to care about?

[00:34:18] Danielle: I never thought about that with magic. What are they giving me to care about?

[00:34:22] John: Yeah. What do I want them to think when they leave the theater?

[00:34:27] Ability to put your own life in perspective. If John can, so can I.

[00:34:33] That's my true message.

[00:34:36] Any different is your superpower.

[00:34:38] Now, my facial paralysis does not have to define me if I don't let it.

[00:34:44] You know, Danielle I live my life that it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

[00:34:51] And that's bit me in the butt numerous times.

[00:34:54] Danielle: I can also say the opposite, can bite you in the butt. I think I waited probably too long, many times for permission that wasn't really coming because no one can ultimately grant it. Right? Like, if there's a path you wanna carve, like the job that you built, all of the different things that you've done, there's no resume posted on LinkedIn.

[00:35:15] No one's hot. Like that's an empowerment coach slash magician slash keynote speaker, slash documentarian like that. You have to get curious and still, and listen to that little voice inside and follow that curiosity to a path that may not make sense for anyone for a really long time. And I didn't do that.

[00:35:40] And that can bite you in the butt too. 'cause regret's hard to hold.

[00:35:42] John: Alex SBE came out on national television

[00:35:45] to his fans, to the world and said, I'm scared. I am fighting the battle of my life and I'm gonna ask for everyone's good thoughts and prayers . of what I'm going through. I reached out to Nikki Trebek, Alex's daughter and I said, Nikki, I need to perform for your dad . we're having a 75th birthday party and we don't have any entertainment.

[00:36:13] So if you wanna be the entertainment, and I was like. Damn. Yes.

[00:36:18] Danielle: Well, yeah. I will go to his house and perform magic for him. a

[00:36:22] John: restaurant, but

[00:36:23] Danielle: Oh, a restaurant. Okay.

[00:36:23] John: Wrote a unique magic show

[00:36:25] With Jeopardy themes and the whole nine yards and he was actually at the table as one of my assistants.

[00:36:33] Oh. Along with his daughter. so he was this, he needed to understand how things worked.

[00:36:39] Was a genius. And so he was constantly looking at me like, wait a minute. That's not possible. Just embrace it, Alex. You're not gonna figure it out. Just enjoy it.

[00:36:52] Danielle: That's awesome.

[00:36:54] John: And there's, on my website, john kipp.com. There are some magic videos and there are two videos of me performing for Alex , sat with him, and I said, Alex, I need to share something with you that, when you came out so publicly about your diagnosis

[00:37:10] I asked for everybody's support and love and prayers that resonated with me. I am here to give to you. You've been a part of my life and the lives of millions of people.

[00:37:27] And your life's work is meaningful.

[00:37:30] I just wanted to tell you that, 'cause I had a feeling that no one ever takes the time to say thank you for your life's work.

[00:37:37] And he immediately started welling up.

[00:37:39] Danielle: Well, anybody who makes something look easy that we do take for granted.

[00:37:45] And I think that, like I appreciate so much in the telling of your story, you share not just the struggles, but the time you had a vision of yourself. On the main stage performing at the Magic Castle, like the most elusive place where magic is. And you didn't just wanna get in, you didn't just wanna get an audition, you didn't wanna just like get to per perform an illusion, like main stage.

[00:38:23] You didn't just have a goal. You had the goal and you did it, but you also say that it took you 10 years. And there's usually themes that run with anxiety, about not enoughness and the crunchiness of time. There's never enough time. I'm not enough and there's not enough time. And not being worthy.

[00:38:42] Yes, yes, yes. One of my main motivations when I started this podcast originally several years ago, was I was. Starting to increasingly feel, trapped in this sort of, world of before and after story. And it was no longer feeling inspirational. It was just another measuring stick for how not enough.

[00:39:03] Yeah. 'Cause it, it's great to see where somebody was and where they are, but when I'm knee deep in my own struggle when I'm the caterpillar goo and the chrysalis, and I'm not the shiny butterfly, but I'm also not the caterpillar anymore. What do I do when my life is literally a shitty pile of goo this is something that most clients don't come right out and ask me like in sessions one, two, and three. But it inevitably comes well, I've been doing this for, so many months. How much longer is it gonna take? How long is it gonna take? And I just always, I appreciate when people can acknowledge.

[00:39:41] The time and consistency that goes into healing

[00:39:47] John: joy is in the journey.

[00:39:48] Danielle: Mm.

[00:39:49] John: Not in the destination.

[00:39:51] And that's the thing I really focus with my clients.

[00:39:55] I have clients come to me because they're holding themselves back in their life.

[00:39:59] And it's my job to get that out of them by asking open-ended questions, by building a rapport, I can trust this guy.

[00:40:08] Danielle: Yeah. Would you say that's your superpower as a coach?

[00:40:11] John: Through my journey of reverse engineering who I am and who I wanted to become. Coming out the other side immediately understood that it's not about me.

[00:40:24] Danielle: Yes. It's only true every single time.

[00:40:27] John: The joy comes from helping others get that realization,

[00:40:32] That they understand they are truly powerful and have a chance to shape their destiny.

[00:40:40] That's why I talk about limiting beliefs.

[00:40:43] And we grow up with our parents or whoever raised us, those are our belief systems.

[00:40:49] And so that's what forms who you are. You stop dreaming.

[00:40:54] That's what midlife crisis is all about.

[00:40:58] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:40:59] John: We got educated, we got a job, we built a career. We have a family.

[00:41:06] Danielle: It's, I think the version of that I hear in my sessions is essentially I did everything right. Shouldn't I be feeling better than I am? Yeah. Like, I followed all the rules. I'm winning. Why does it not feel like I'm winning? Yeah. And finding our way back to that.

[00:41:29] The unlearning and the unraveling. That is a, it's a process.

[00:41:34] John: I'll talk to a friend. How you doing? And so many people respond automatically living the dream. But is it your dream? You're living?

[00:41:46] Whose dream are you living? Because you're wasting your life by living someone else's dream. And that's why you get to that point in life where it's not enough.

[00:41:58] Cause it's not your dream. You just finished the last 30 years building.

[00:42:03] Danielle: Yeah. And the joy really is in the process and there's no way to enjoy the process of fulfilling the wishes of somebody else because you, what you're constantly chasing is when I get there, then the relief will come and then you're there and you're like, well, where's my pot of gold?

[00:42:22] John: Yeah. I had, I spent 20 years learning how not to hide my face.

[00:42:28] And what happened in March in 2020? The pandemic hit

[00:42:33] now covering your face with a mask, became not only politically correct.

[00:42:41] But government mandated and I'm like sitting there thinking to myself, what do I do? So I found a company who prints things on masks and I sent them a picture of my face and a picture of the lower part of my job.

[00:43:01] Danielle: Trickster energy, John Kippen trickster. That's the new hyphen to your list of all of your accomplishments.

[00:43:08] John: I would walk around and strangers would look at it and not understand.

[00:43:12] Danielle: Right, right. But people who knew me

[00:43:15] John: would do a double take.

[00:43:17] Danielle: I will not hide.

[00:43:19] John: Refuses to hide.

[00:43:20] Even through a global pandemic.

[00:43:23] Yeah.

[00:43:23] John: I'm gonna live my life

[00:43:25] Danielle: mm-hmm. On

[00:43:26] John: my own terms.

[00:43:28] Danielle: Yeah. I work too hard, too long to get free and I will not hide for you. Wow. Wow. And

[00:43:37] John: when I share that story, people like, wow, John's done some soul searching.

[00:43:44] Danielle: Which is why your clients come to you.

[00:43:46] John: Yeah.

[00:43:46] Danielle: Yeah. I unfortunately have come across many. People in the helping profession that haven't started with their first client, which is themselves. I put myself in that camp. I've talked about it on the podcast before, but I didn't start seeing a therapist until I became one, which is probably not the right order, but I didn't realize until I was sitting there trying to help people.

[00:44:09] And then my own stuff was getting activated in the session. It's called Counter Transference. And, yeah, I was like, oh shit, I gotta look at the mirror. I gotta do a little more digging. But I think a, what leads a lot of people into helping professions is its desire to heal. And it sounds like in your case you did the herculean task of lifting your own self up before you said, now what can I offer you?

[00:44:39] I wanna ask, just a purely curious, selfish question before we get to the very end I wanna ask. In your book playing the Hand you're Dealt how did you connect with Jamie Lee Curtis? The same way you did Alex Trebek? Did you just find someone and you DMed them and

[00:44:55] John: you're like, her assistant worked for a production company

[00:45:00] in a previous job.

[00:45:02] Danielle: Gotcha.

[00:45:02] John: That I knew.

[00:45:03] When Jamie was like, I need it. So help with my computer. Her assistant said, I've got the guy for you. And I remember being at Jamie's house.

[00:45:15] She knew me before my facial surgery, and after.

[00:45:18] Danielle: So you have a history then?

[00:45:19] John: Oh yeah. We met in 2000.

[00:45:21] Danielle: Oh, okay.

[00:45:22] John: So she saw me before.

[00:45:24] She saw the struggle. Sure, she has two. Great kids.

[00:45:29] And she adopted me as her third child. Wow. She saw the ability to help me. And so I had a filmmaker friend of mine reach out and said, John, I'd love your story.

[00:45:45] I want to film a documentary on you. And I'm like, cool. So I realized I'm paying for the damn documentary.

[00:45:51] Danielle: Oh. So I wanna offer you this gift, and by the way, here's the bill.

[00:45:55] John: Yes, exactly. But at that point, I'm all in and I'm like, what do I have to lose? I'm a risk taker. I can afford it.

[00:46:01] I've got money in the bank.

[00:46:03] Let's make sure we stay on budget or close to budget, so there I am working on Jamie's computer and I'm staring at the screen and I'm summoning the courage. Ask Jamie. So I'm telling her the story. My friend Ryan's gonna direct this documentary about my life and my journey, and then I pause and I'm just staring at the screen.

[00:46:23] I feel these eyes burning into the side of my head.

[00:46:26] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:28] John: And Jamie says, and

[00:46:32] Danielle: I love that she didn't do it for you, but she made you do it.

[00:46:36] John: And then at that point, I realized what the question was. I said, Jamie, will you be in my documentary?

[00:46:44] And she goes, fuck yes, I will.

[00:46:48] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:46:49] John: She gets it.

[00:46:50] Yeah.

[00:46:51] John: Going through her sobriety, she wears her sobriety on her. Shoulder as a badge of honor.

[00:47:00] And that is her message.

[00:47:02] Yeah.

[00:47:03] John: If she can get people to stop drinking by showing up for people. That's her ultimate goal in life. And so, she saw in me what I didn't see,

[00:47:18] Danielle: and you asked the question. I think it's a lesson that I feel like I'm eternally playing a game of peekaboo with where I forget, and then I remember and then I forget and then I remember. But like the opportunities that you're asking for, you have to ask.

[00:47:39] Yes. You have to say the thing. Right. Which is so brave and so vulnerable. But then the magic is sometimes when you ask, someone will say Yes. Now, in your case, she was essentially lovingly poking you until you,

[00:47:55] John: asked. There was a point where I was debating plastic surgery.

[00:48:00] Did I want to try to fix my face? Because at the end of the day, I wanted symmetry at rest. I wanted to be able to get rid of the droopiness and just, have a symmetrical base. That's all I really wanted. Sure. And because I would say, I hit my smile. And I've had friends come up and say, John, your first smile, we love your smile.

[00:48:23] But I didn't love my smile. And until I, not up here, not in my head, but in my heart, accepted my smile. I couldn't move forward. I couldn't heal. And once I accepted my new smile, I found joy. I found that I could love myself.

[00:48:46] And what's funny is when you get to that point,

[00:48:49] yeah.

[00:48:50] John: You overcome whatever that thing is that's holding you back.

[00:48:53] Yeah.

[00:48:54] John: And you want to share it with every person you come in contact with.

[00:49:00] Danielle: Yeah. You are the love you're seeking.

[00:49:02] John: Yes. Yes. And you are your acceptance.

[00:49:05] Danielle: It reminds me of, something. He said in an interview, in, A New Earth, but author Eckert Tolle said that right before his essential death of the, he called it the death of his ego, but we could call it enlightenment or rebirth.

[00:49:19] But he remembers the last thing he said before he went to sleep was, I can't live with myself anymore. And it wasn't about in the interpretation , of , taking one's own life . but what he realized is that he couldn't live with the self that was hating him. He couldn't live with that self.

[00:49:40] And that self never woke up. But he did.

[00:49:45] John: Through my journey

[00:49:46] Of coming to accept myself for who I am. I immediately see others.

[00:49:53] Yeah.

[00:49:53] John: How they're hiding.

[00:49:54] Before they recognize it. And so my coaching is all about not saying, this is why you're hiding.

[00:50:03] That's what's holding you back.

[00:50:06] Danielle: What you said about once you, you see somebody's wall so clearly because you understand your own so well. My less eloquent way of saying that to clients, it's once you smell bullshit, you can't unm it. It's the scent in the air and you're like, huh, what am I smelling?

[00:50:23] Oh, it's bullshit. Well, John, I would love to know your, don't cut your own bang moment.

[00:50:30] John: I'm backstage. There are a thousand people in the audience and I had theatrical training I had a talk memorized. It had to be 12 minutes long.

[00:50:39] I'm doing a magic trick with other people that are coming up stage. I needed to control that. I got there early the morning of the TED Talk and helped the guys focus the lights so that it looked better. I'm all in. I want to shine in this TED Talk. , I remember I'm going up on stage and I'm saying, to the cherry picker operator, can I give you a hand? Because I have lighting experience. And I expected the presenter come and say, no, John, you're the actor. Go in your, the green room and there's some donuts and coffee , and we'll call you already, but you didn't. She knew that I was there to make the entire event better. And she let me do it,

[00:51:18] That's awesome.

[00:51:19] John: This is my first real speech. Okay, in front of a thousand people. And I knew that I had a limited time to get the audience on my side.

[00:51:30] Get the audience engaged. How was I gonna be able to break their, going through their phone, talking to a neighbor, drinking, eating, snacking in a full day of speech?

[00:51:41] Yeah.

[00:51:43] John: So I said, I wanna go first. And everybody has said, great, but we don't, you can go first. And right before the mc went on stage to introduce me. I did a magic trick war. I turned Monopoly money into real money and then back again.

[00:52:00] So as a magician, everything was possible. I turned monopoly into real money, but then I realized that's actually called counterfeiting he stays out for like seven seconds. I did that to the mc and now he just saw a miracle happen.

[00:52:16] So he turns around and walks on stage beaming, and he told that story to the audience and said, Hey guys, your next speaker just did a miracle. He turned monopoly money into real money in front of my eyes. Pay attention to this cat.

[00:52:37] Yeah.

[00:52:38] John: So I walked on that stage. I had the love of everybody in the audience that everybody wanted to see what I was gonna do.

[00:52:46] Everybody wanted to hear what I was gonna say, so I didn't have to warm up the audience. I got the mc to do it for me. Genius. And I do that every time I speak because it works but anyway, three quarters of the speech, I'm standing on my red circle and I'm delivering my talk.

[00:53:08] And the front lights go out.

[00:53:10] Danielle: Wait, you were three fours of the way done when they went out.

[00:53:13] John: I'm standing in shadows. And my first reaction was, whoa. That Whoa. Got the lighting guy to realize, holy shit, I hit the wrong button, and he brought the lights slowly back up.

[00:53:27] As the lights went back up, I went magic

[00:53:32] and so I got an amazing laugh from the audience.

[00:53:36] Because I cut the tension, I was doing improv.

[00:53:38] I remember walking off stage and the producer of the event said, John, don't worry about, we'll edit that part out. And I said, don't you dare. That was my finest moment. Don't you dare edit that out.

[00:53:54] I want that in the video.

[00:53:57] She just smiled as I went back to the dressing room and sat down and then the adrenaline was like, whew. Walking out into the audience after the event and having strangers just come up to me and wanna hug me and say, holy cow, I resonate with your message.

[00:54:18] And my message on the TED Talk was, treat people are different with respect to compassion.

[00:54:23] That's what TED talks are all about. You want one key message and that was my message.

[00:54:27] You never know, you might be in their shoes in an instant.

[00:54:34] Danielle: I wanna add to that, another way to speak to the value of doing some self investigation, whether that's through journaling, through therapy, or seeking out a coach from someone like yourself is, because that expression of, treat other people the way you would wanna be treated.

[00:54:53] What I know is that we don't treat ourselves all that well. A lot of us, many of us don't treat ourselves well, which is why accessing the compassion. Of treating others kindly is sometimes harder for us to find, jumping to criticism or judgment, because there's something we are rejecting in us.

[00:55:13] So I think a way to do the thing you're saying , that beautiful treat others with kindness and compassion. The best way to do that is to look within. And I invite anybody listening to go to the show notes, visit John's website, seek out a coaching call, grab a copy of his book. There are resources that can help you be kinder to yourself, to lowering the walls, to lifting the veil, to seeing yourself in a new way, to performing the ultimate illusion, which is

[00:55:52] to love yourself more fully exactly as you are so that we can be kinder to each other. 'cause we need that, we need a lot more kindness.

[00:56:00] Thank you, John. Do we have the information we need for our listeners to get the special code?

[00:56:06] John: John kipping.com.

[00:56:08] Slash free gift.

[00:56:11] Danielle: Ooh, you heard it here. John kipping.com/free gift. And this is only the gift for those of you who have listened this far.

[00:56:20] So if you listen to the beginning and you just try to skip to the show notes, sorry. You ain't getting a gift. Thank you, John.

[00:56:28] Thank you so much for joining me on this incredible episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I hope that you love listening because I thoroughly enjoyed making it. My favorite episodes are the ones where I get to learn something too. I'm also a listener. And benefiting from the wisdom and insights of all of the experts, creatives, performers, adventurers seekers that I get an opportunity to meet in this podcast format.

[00:56:56] Don't forget to check out the show notes and please before you sign off , always remember rate, review, subscribe to the podcast when you interact with the podcast. It just helps send it out like a rocket ship to other people that are looking for the same value that you are. And it also helps create a conversation where I can continue to develop and cultivate something that benefits you more and is more fun for you to listen to. Feedback is great, and also if you just wanna throw a compliment, that's sweet too. But thank you so much for being here.

[00:57:26] Your intention, your time mean the absolute world to me, and I hope you continue to have an incredible day.

[00:57:32] ​

In this solo episode of 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs,' Danielle Ireland dives deep into the often overwhelming world of frustration. With recent personal anecdotes, Danielle tells you how to interpret and process frustration to improve relationships with others, and yourself - through self-reflection, journaling, and open conversations. Learn how to turn frustration into a guiding force for personal growth. Jump into the episode with Danielle for insightful, real-time processing and discover how to handle life's inevitable hiccups!

00:00 Introduction and Purpose of the Episode

00:32 Understanding and Processing Frustration

01:09 Personal Examples of Frustration

04:05 Methods to Address Frustration

10:19 Journaling and Self-Reflection

11:29 Recent Frustrating Experience

15:39 Final Thoughts and Conclusion

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Like your favorite recipe or song, the best things in life are shared. When you rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast, your engagement helps me connect  with other listeners just like you. Plus, subscriptions just make life easier for everybody. It's one less thing for you to think about and you can easily keep up to date on everything that’s new. So, please rate, review, and subscribe today. 

 

DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.

 

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Transcription

[00:00:01] ​ hello? Hello. This is Danielle Ireland and you are catching an episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. A solo cast, a little snack cast. Man, I just had a frustrating situation happen and frustration happens if you are alive on this earth and interacting with other people, places, and or things. So nouns, if you're interacting with this world, you are going to feel this emotion.

[00:00:23] You're gonna have this experience of frustration. And so I thought, let me hop on, let me channel this energy into something productive. 'cause it always makes me feel better about it. And we're gonna process in real time so let's talk about frustration. Let's talk about what frustration is telling you, what you can do about it, how you can process or explore it through a conversation or a journal. Using emotions and interpreting them like information , because they are, our emotions are our internal compass, our internal guidance system, and the way we emotionally respond to life is information that is, it's like a roadmap guiding us through the next right step.

[00:01:04] So together we're gonna talk about what frustration is. What you can do about it, what it could be telling you. I'll share a little bit about what my frustration was recently. And I have another example too that's a little less fresh. But I think we can get conceptual, but then we also need to see it in context to really understand it. Frustration is always telling you something. It is always telling you something. It's never standing alone. You're never just frustrated. There is always, I am frustrated because I'm frustrated and feeling blank. It's always informing something every single time.

[00:01:40] Oftentimes, especially if we're talking about relationships frustration is generally connected with either the other person, this other person didn't meet a need that they did or didn't know you had?

[00:01:53] And that's fricking frustrating.

[00:01:54] But either way, the frustration still stands. So it can either be informing something about a relationship. Someone canceling plans, someone changing plans last minute, someone no showing, someone ghosting you and not talking to you, or, somebody maybe.

[00:02:08] Making jokes that you don't find particularly funny. Using sarcasm as a way to avoid having a real conversation. These are the examples that are fresher in my mind, but you can expand upon it in your own. Then there's also within frustration, there's the external interpretation, and then there's also an internal one, which is I am not doing something.

[00:02:31] Necessary for me. I'm not speaking a truth out loud that needs to be said. I am not, either making time or space for myself in a way that's good for me. Sometimes frustration can come from. The emotion for me, for example, I was just talking to my husband the other day about the last family trip we took, I experienced a lot of frustration on that trip and what I know now more than I did.

[00:02:57] Then again, frustration right before growth, right before expansion, right before clarity. Even though logically and cognitively, I knew that this is a family trip, not a vacation. You may or may not get downtime for yourself, but you do have help and resources.

[00:03:14] So take the time where you can, your kids are gonna be okay. Everyone is gonna have their own experience. It's not your job to make sure everybody's happy, fulfilled, and it's not your job to make sure that nobody feels any discomfort. About every 15 minutes I was up checking on the kids.

[00:03:29] I felt like I was the. Ticker time monitor of, okay, it's 30 minutes before snack. It's, 45 minutes before nap. And so my mind could never turn off and I never felt rested. I didn't believe that there was a way that I could make time or space for myself. And I'll be honest I didn't go into the trip thinking to myself that, it is your job to make sure everyone is happy, comfortable, and settled.

[00:03:56] But what I felt on the trip was this frustration, irritation. I was irritated at everyone. I was exhausted. I felt trapped. So I used the method that I'm gonna talk about here to try to. Get a better look at what my frustration was informing, which has really empowered me for , weekends with the family or it, it's made the, I have had much better experiences since this particularly frustrating family trip because of what I now know through processing the frustration.

[00:04:28] I wanna share this one with you. So I'm feeling frustrated about. Blank. Not getting time for myself, not being able to feel like I can step away, feeling like I have to be responsible all the time. I feel trapped. So the first thing is I'm frustrated about, and then you specify the element that is frustrating.

[00:04:47] Then identify the emotion. I feel trapped. So when I sit with that and I get curious about the emotion of feeling trapped, well, where is that coming from? So this is another statement that I wanna offer you, that saying this aloud when the frustration as you're funneling through the process of understanding your frustration and what it could be informing for you.

[00:05:12] The thing that I like to say to myself in a journal or out loud is some version of this, make it your own, knowing that I can never change other people and that I am the one who is responsible for me, I can. I want, I need, I will, and I use those sentence stems, but in some version of this process, after letting myself name the frustration exactly in the way I feel it.

[00:05:40] I'm frustrated at so and so for never seeming to pick up the pace when, , knowing what needs to happen with the kids' schedule. I'll be as specific as I need to be. I'll vent, complain. Say it exactly how I feel it, and then ask another layer, right? So there's, that's the bob, and then the lure, I feel trapped because if I really look at the truth of that, I'm, I'm not trapped.

[00:06:06] I'm at a family trip at a resort, in many cases if I really sit with that and open and access curiosity. There were many times where people were asking me, what do you need? Do you wanna go do blank? Do you wanna go do blank? And I was so caught up in my own narrative at the time that I felt trapped and I felt like I couldn't say yes.

[00:06:29] And so who, who's responsible for that? Me. I can hold the discomfort of accepting help I want. To have 30 minutes to read a book uninterrupted. I want to go for a walk by myself on the beach. I need to exercise the practice of identifying my needs before jumping in and rescuing. And I'm using, I'm using air quotes here when I say rescuing, rescuing everybody from feeling any discomfort, because that's not my job and I will.

[00:07:07] Be a better steward for myself in these moments. And then, then I could even if I wanted to take that context into a conversation with somebody and. Brainstorm. Okay, what could that look like in reality? So what would be a little commitment? Every morning I'm gonna give myself this 15 minute block, this 20 minute block.

[00:07:32] I will commit to letting that be inconvenient for someone. The point is that your frustration is valid. Your frustration is real, it is being experienced by you. Therefore, the resolve, the action, the places you go, the conversations you have, or just the new informed way that you have of moving forward with that, it's uniquely yours.

[00:08:01] That doesn't mean don't talk about it, don't share it with others, but it means that your frustration is yours and you are the steward. Of your wellbeing. So taking that responsibility lovingly and kindly can really help what not only make you feel more free to move through the world in a way that actually serves you.

[00:08:22] It also makes you, I think, a safer partner, a safer friend, a safer ally coworker to other people because the more you know that you can identify your own needs. The easier it is to communicate them and honor them, even if I am the only one feeling frustrated by feeling trapped, going back to my example, the other people on the trip, even though they didn't know how I was feeling, maybe they didn't even know I was frustrated, I'm sure they could tell I wasn't operating at my best.

[00:08:53] I might have been more clipped, more short, more, , tight smiled. The way that I was showing up and interacting with other people was felt. So this goes back to, and I don't like the, I need to think of a better example than this, but it is appropriate in this case, by not putting my mask on, I was losing air and it was sucking the air out of the interactions I was having with other people on this family trip.

[00:09:16] Putting my mask on first, taking care of myself, and honestly honoring that there is room for me. It's okay for me to take up room and space. It's okay for my needs to be a priority before somebody else's. and so now as we're planning our next family trip, David and I I'm taking this context, I'm taking this memory, this experience, and the old feeling of frustration.

[00:09:41] That discomfort was just strong enough for me to not forget it so that I remember to honor it. In that way too, the discomfort of some of the, I'll say less yummy feeling emotions that they have their place to be honored in that they are uncomfortable in a way that makes you pay attention.

[00:10:01] And so my hope is always when I'm doing my own work is. How can I learn the lesson a little clearer, a little sooner, a little gentler? How can I become more in tune with the experience I'm having so that it doesn't have to get as uncomfortable as it got before?

[00:10:19] Danielle: ever wanted to start a journaling practice but didn't know where to start, or if you've been journaling off and on your whole life, but you're like, I wanna take this work deeper, I've got you covered. I've written a journal called Treasured, a Journal for unearthing you. It's broken down into seven key areas of your life, filled with stories, sentence stems, prompts, questions, and exercises.

[00:10:38] All rooted in the work that I do with actual clients in my therapy sessions. I have given these examples to clients in sessions as homework, and they come back with insights that allow us to do such incredible work. This is something you can do in the privacy of your own home, whether you're in therapy or not.

[00:10:57] It has context, it has guides. And hopefully some safety bumpers to help digging a little deeper feel possible, accessible and safe. You don't have to do this alone. And there's also a guided treasured meditation series that accompanies each section in the journal to help ease you into the processing state.

[00:11:16] So my hope is to help guide you into feeling more secure with the most important relationship in your life, the one between you and you. Hop on over to the show notes and grab your copy today. And now back to the episode.

[00:11:29] The example that just happened recently, an appointment was made, the person. Forgot it, lost it on their calendar. That happens. It does. And not being totally uptight and rigid about people missing appointments that has actually made my life easier, particularly in my personal life.

[00:11:49] Because , it seems like as soon as I get up in arms about what I can and cannot accept from somebody else, it almost seems like within the week, karma knocks me upside the head and I end up making the same. Big mistake that I was so indignant about somebody else doing. So this isn't about, you don't wanna get self-righteous.

[00:12:10] And in this particular case, a couple weeks later, it gets rescheduled and the same thing happened again.

[00:12:19] And so what this is informing for me is a few different things. And this is in real time. 'cause this is actually pretty fresh. I'm frustrated about my time not being honored. I feel, what's another word that's not frustrated? I feel, disappointed. I feel hurt. I feel. Tender and I also feel creative, believe it or not, like that experience happening was part of what helped jumpstart this solo cast for existing.

[00:12:48] So there can be multiple things true at the same time. And knowing that I can never change this other person, it's not my responsibility, and I actually hold no ill will against them. And I am the one that is responsible for me. What can I do? I can choose or not choose to reengage with them in the capacity that we were intending to work together.

[00:13:07] What I want is to honor my own time. That's what I feel like I'm doing now. Things didn't go the way I planned, but there was still something meaningful that I could do with the time that was allocated before. So here we now sit, which is great. So that's something that actually is moving me forward.

[00:13:20] I wanna honor my own time. And then also I think the thing like I need, and I will, I had, and this is a little vulnerable to admit, but it's true. I had this little inkling, this little spidey sense that this may or may not work, but because of other reasons.

[00:13:43] There were exciting things. That I felt would be beneficial for me professionally. , Shiny things, I'll say maybe more ego-based, although not invalid, but ego-based things that working with this person might help support me in my work. I was maybe a little quick to overlook and dismiss the seeming lack of respect for my time by sidestepping that.

[00:14:13] And just hoping it would work out, and that was my participation in it. I had a feeling sometimes you kind of get feelings about things, but I bulldozed over those because it was like a soft little speed hump. And I was like, no, no, there's all these features and benefits of why this should be a really good situation.

[00:14:35] Don't read too much into it. Don't be negative. And so the first, the first cancellation happened, it happens. That is life. Now the second ones happen in a different way, in a slightly different package, but still like the same shitty gift. And now I have new information but I also have power and decide how I wanna move forward.

[00:14:58] I'm channeling it into frustration. As a teacher, what is your frustration telling you? I'm channeling it into this podcast and I'm honoring my own time. Because if what I want is for someone else to respect my time, well, I'm really the one that needs to respect my time. And this can also help me become an even clearer communicator when I'm scheduling with someone, helping with reminders, double checking.

[00:15:21] If that little whisper is persistently coming up that, hey, something smells a little fishy or something feels a little off, I don't have to maybe know in the fullest extent of the word what that means, but also don't ignore it, and that is what I did.

[00:15:38] That's it. Whether your frustration is informing something about a relationship or a dynamic, or whether it's informing something about yourself and the way you're showing up in the world. Either way, it, one, it's okay if you're feeling frustration in real time and not being able to handle this process yet.

[00:15:53] That's all right. Feel the feelings first. Revisit it second, but I hope that this little nugget, this little snap cast is. A companion for you that you can save, download, revisit any time you find yourself feeling frustration and know that though it is uncomfortable, it's, it's almost like itchy. It's like something scratchy.

[00:16:17] Scratch the itch. Feel it. But then go back. Don't ignore it. Don't bulldoze past it. Revisit it and ask it. What is it wanting you to know? So I'm feeling frustrated about not getting any time to myself on a family trip.

[00:16:33] I feel trapped knowing that I can never change other people. It is not my job, not my responsibility, and it is impossible. I am the person who takes care of me so I can. Plan ahead, get up 15 minutes earlier to have a couple of moments to breathe before everybody wakes up. I want to have a little bit of breathing room once or twice a day, usually, probably before a meal and after a meal.

[00:17:02] I need to commit to this and hold this at the forefront of my mind so that it isn't forgotten, because I'm gonna be the only one that can make that happen for myself, and I will. Bring this new understanding to my husband or to whomever I'm traveling with, to hold myself accountable because I've said the thing out loud.

[00:17:22] I can, I want, I need, I will. And then the little quote that I left at the end of this was more of a personal note for me, but I'll share it with you just because we're here doing this together. There is room enough for me. There is room enough for me. There is enough for me, there's enough space for me, there is enough time for me.

[00:17:42] My stress and anxiety are almost always rooted in either not being enough, not having enough, not doing enough. And so this is a new practice, a new mantra that I'm saying for myself to help soothe that tender little one inside. Who needs to know that she's enough? Her feelings matter.

[00:18:01] They're allowed to take up space and. She's got this. There's room enough for me, so I will leave you with that. Thank you so much for joining me in this little snack cast, solo cast of don't cut your own bangs. As always, it is a pleasure to sit and spend time here with you and in case you're new here too, because there are new visitors all the time.

[00:18:20] I work by day as a therapist, and then by other parts of the day, because let me be honest, I don't work at night, but by other parts of day I have this podcast, which is one of my absolute favorite communities, places to process and to share insights I learned from my therapy practice with you in real time.

[00:18:38] So that's what the solo cast are here for. But I hope you catch me next time on an interview. I interview creatives. Professionals, adventurers. People who are doing beautiful and amazing things in the world. Because what I wanna know is between the highlights, between the highlight reels on social media, between the big successes and milestones.

[00:18:57] What happened when didn't, things didn't work out? What did you do when you faced out? What happened when you maybe failed 10 times before you got your first success? What did it look like when it was hard? And how can we all learn from that? Because that is what I'm struggling. What helps me is not just having a north star of what's possible, but also a path to get there.

[00:19:18] And I think that hearing other people's stories is what helps me feel like I can survive. Thank you for being here. Your time and attention mean the world to me. And before you hop off, please remember to rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast. It really helps the podcast grow. It helps other people find us.

[00:19:35] It also helps me get better. So if you leave a comment question, feedback, this is a community and a conversation, let's keep it going. But I hope you continue to have a wonderful day. ​

 

Unlock the Power of Self-Validation    Inspired by a recent therapy session, in this solo episode of 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs,' Danielle Ireland explores the practice of self-validation. She shares insights on how to validate your own experiences, calm your nervous system, and push back against self-doubt. The episode includes practical examples, journaling tips, and real-life applications, making it a valuable resource for anyone looking to strengthen their self-awareness and emotional well-being.  

RATE, REVIEW, SUBSCRIBE TO “DON’T CUT YOUR OWN BANGS” 

Like your favorite recipe or song, the best things in life are shared. When you rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast, your engagement helps me connect  with other listeners just like you. Plus, subscriptions just make life easier for everybody. It's one less thing for you to think about and you can easily keep up to date on everything that’s new. So, please rate, review, and subscribe today. 

DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.

Connect with Danielle:

• Watch the show on YouTube

• Instagram

• The Treasured Journal

• Wrestling a Walrus

  00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview 00:12 Understanding Self-Validation 01:00 Practical Examples of Validation 02:12 Benefits of Validation 03:11 Self-Validation Techniques 05:39 Journaling for Self-Discovery 06:49 Client Story and Real-Life Application 07:57 Navigating Uncertainty with Self-Validation 10:22 The Power of Truth in Self-Validation 15:41 Children's Book and Emotional Education 16:56 Conclusion and Listener Engagement   Self Validation Solocast

[00:00:00] Danielle: Hello. Hello. This is Danielle Ireland and you are listening to Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. And today I'm coming at you

[00:00:07] Hello. Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are listening to Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. And today I'm coming at you with a tasty little treat, a little snack of a solo cast, we're gonna talk about validating the self, how this is a practice that you can do on your own, in your mind, in a journal. You can take this anywhere with you, and it is a fabulous tool to regulate the nervous system.

[00:00:32] To calm down the chatter of self-doubt, those that overwhelming spiraling self-talk that we can get lost in. And I'm gonna talk about what validation is and what it's not, and how you can actually practice this in your own life. It came out of a really powerful therapy session that I gave this week, and almost as soon as I signed off of that call, my first thought was, oh dang, I need to share this.

[00:00:56] So here we are validating the self. Simply put it is naming your experience. If we were thinking about it in terms of relationships, if it was me communicating with somebody else, validation is that I can hold space. I can see the reality and the truth of your experience, and I can honor that as true for you.

[00:01:22] So for example, if. With my four, my 4-year-old daughter, for example, I can see for her experience, you really want a Popsicle. You really want a Popsicle right now, and I'm telling you it's time to go down for a nap. You're really upset that I told you you're not gonna get a Popsicle, and I can see how hard that is for you.

[00:01:43] I'm validating that you are having an emotional experience that is different from me. In this moment, even though we're having, we're in the same room, right? We're breathing the same air, but you're having a very different experience than me, and I can see that is true and that is real for you. That is just a silly, small example.

[00:02:05] Although it's based on very real, very real experiences. But that is how we can offer validation for somebody else. The benefit of doing that for someone else is it lets them know that they're not crazy. It's not just in their head. It's all of the invalidating language that I'm sure we are all very familiar with.

[00:02:26] Like you're being dramatic. You're being over the top. Calm down. It's not that big a deal. You just need to get over it. You're not being logical, too emotional. Those are all ways that we can be invalidated, that we have been invalidated, and that we can invalidate somebody else. So to repeat what validation is, is I can see the truth of your experiences based on the circumstances that are before you.

[00:02:55] You, there's something you really want. There's something that you didn't get your experiences, you're disappointed and upset. You're telling me you don't wanna go to bed, and I can see that is true for you, and I can hold space for myself for having a different experience. So now we're talking about validating the self, and I'll talk about how you can also do that outside of an interaction with somebody.

[00:03:18] In my experience, my daughter's upset. She's screaming about a Popsicle. She's telling me she doesn't wanna go down for a nap. She's telling me she's not tired. And then here's my experience. Here's what I know. What I know is it's 1230 I. You normally go down for a nap at 12, you're already getting tired.

[00:03:36] I've seen you rubbing your eyes. I've been down this road with you many times before. I know it's hard for you to stop having fun when you wanna keep having fun, and I also know I'll pay for it later. If I don't get you down for a nap. There's likely gonna be a meltdown later. So my experience is I'm witnessing the emotional eruption and upheaval.

[00:04:00] Of having to tell you, no, you can't have a Popsicle, and yes, you are going down for a nap. That's stressful for me. This isn't what I want either. What I want is to just give you what you want so that I can go chill and read my book

[00:04:14] I don't wanna deal with a tantrum. This is hard for me to, I know that it's the right thing to do, so I'm going to do it anyway. And I also know that you are for. And your brain is only developed four years, and your job is to want what you want. And my job is to do the best I can to take care of your beautiful brain and body.

[00:04:35] So I can honor that. That is my experience, and I'm not making her responsible for my experience because she's entitled to have her own. And it's very different than mine, even though we're breathing the same air, we're in the same space. I can regulate myself and I can regulate my own nervous system.

[00:04:53] By honoring, you're doing what you know is right, you're doing the best you can in this moment. You're frustrated too. You're disappointed too. You don't like dealing with this either. You wish this were easier, all of those things that are true. And each time I allow myself to acknowledge the truth of my experience to myself, even if it's just in my own mind.

[00:05:19] I can feel what I actually physiologically experience, I physically experience like tingles in my legs. That must be a way that my nervous system is letting me know that it's calming down, but I breathe and I'm speaking the truth for myself to myself. That always puts me in a clearer frame of mind.

[00:05:39] If you've ever wanted to start a journaling practice but didn't know where to start, or if you've been journaling off and on your whole life, but you're like, I wanna take this work deeper, I've got you covered. I've written a journal called Treasured, a Journal for unearthing you. It's broken down into seven key areas of your life, filled with stories, sentence stems, prompts, questions, and exercises.

[00:05:58] All rooted in the work that I do with actual clients in my therapy sessions. I have given these examples to clients in sessions as homework, and they come back with insights that allow us to do such incredible work. This is something you can do in the privacy of your own home, whether you're in therapy or not.

[00:06:17] It has context, it has guides. And hopefully some safety bumpers to help digging a little deeper feel possible, accessible and safe. You don't have to do this alone. And there's also a guided treasured meditation series that accompanies each section in the journal to help ease you into the processing state.

[00:06:36] My hope is to help guide you into feeling more secure with the most important relationship in your life, the one between you and you. Hop on over to the show notes and grab your copy today. And now back to the episode.

[00:06:49] Danielle: so in this session with a client where this concept came out, this was one of those moments where. My client, had just made a really, really hard decision about her life and her family, and she was in that really tender early stage of making a new decision where there's a fork in the road and you're starting down this new path based on the new choice that you've just made.

[00:07:18] You're not so far down the road. It's like you're almost walking parallel paths before they really start to split off into a v and I'm making these new steps forward, but it's hard and it's scary and it's new.

[00:07:33] This is definitely unknown. And then I can still see the well worn path next to me that I. Could have been on if I had just stayed the same. And it's in that space where validating the self can be. If you find yourself in a similar couple steps past a fork in the road moment, this too may be really impactful for you.

[00:07:57] And it's not about knowing. The outcome of your choice, because that is impossible. It's so easy to just try to get our hooks into something that feels safe and sturdy and stable. But all you know, I'm here. I've made this decision. This is hard. This is scary, this is new.

[00:08:22] And even though you're not making a false promise to yourself, and you may actually be admitting something that's hard, like this is really challenging, I feel really uncertain. I don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. I feel lost those statements. It's not false hope, and it's not toxic positivity.

[00:08:42] You're not trying to spin the truth into something palatable. You're letting the truth exist, and you're also making the statement with a period at the end of the sentence, I feel lost. I don't know what to do tomorrow. I'm here. I've done it. I'm scared. It's a statement and then it, there's a period at the end of that sentence.

[00:09:07] Each time you do your own version of that, which is self validation, your nervous system calms down. There is this activation that can happen with anxiety and self-doubt, especially when we feel lost. Our mind is looking for certainty, and so it'll start asking us questions and in particular questions like, why?

[00:09:35] Why did this happen to me? Why are they doing this? Why aren't they calling me back? Why aren't they texting me? And the problem with those types of questions phrased in that particular way, you're asking yourself questions that you can't know the answer to. That will activate more anxiety because more questions you can't know the answer to will lead to more questions you can't know the answer to, and you will start to experience that as dread and doom and or you will also very likely, and this is referencing Brene Brown, here, you will insert your worst fear with your uncertainty, like your uncertainty gaps of knowledge and understanding.

[00:10:13] I'm just gonna insert the worst fears I have about myself or the worst possible outcome I can think of. This does not help your nervous system. This does not help you feel safe. Validating the self. It's not false hope, it's not toxic positivity. It is to the simplest, most base way you can say it.

[00:10:31] What is the truest thing? The truest thing about what you're experiencing in this moment and let it exist. Take a breath.

[00:10:40] Say the thing, and it might be a hard thing. It also might be a simple thing. It might be, I don't know, but even saying you don't know is radically different for your brain and body in terms of being able to regulate and deescalate. Saying you don't know is different than asking a question you cannot answer and.

[00:11:04] Sometimes, I don't know, is the truest thing you can access, but I can guarantee you, even though I probably shouldn't be making a guarantee, I can guarantee you, you say you don't know and you take a beat. You follow up with, well, what do I know? You will have an answer. I promise you will have an answer.

[00:11:25] What I know is I can't go back. What I know is I made the best possible decision I could in the moment. What I know is I'm here. What I know is I'm breathing. I'm sitting in a chair. What I know is I can feel my blanket on my lap whatever it is. If you sit with the unknown and you let it exist for just a couple of breaths, something will reveal itself to you, and this is why self validation can be so powerful.

[00:12:00] Your body responds to truth. So just a little information about lie detector tests. They don't detect lies. There's actually no way to measure physiologically a lie. What lie detectors measure is your body's stress response. Most of us, not all, some people can hijack the system, especially if people have low empathy.

[00:12:22] That are affected by lies or it's not practiced out of them. But I would say for the majority of us, when we speak something that isn't true in our mind or allowed, our heart rate will raise, perspiration will increase, and your body will have a reaction to stress. So when you speak the truth, whatever that truth may be, there is a reason why.

[00:12:50] When I am in a session with somebody and either it comes out of my mouth or it's their own knowing in the moment when the truth is known, it stabilizes you. And sometimes it is a really hard hard truth, but the truth, no matter how hard it's the right kind of hard and arguably more. Certain and more safe than any well told pretty half truth.

[00:13:24] And if anybody who has either been in therapy or had, you know what Oprah calls an aha moment, it's like you go, oh, that's what it is. That's the thing I haven't let myself see for so long. That's the thing I've been afraid to admit or say for years, and now it's here. And there's often work to do after, but what we're talking about is in that moment when the truth is spoken, your body relaxes.

[00:13:56] The shoulders come down the jaw on clinches, the pressure in the chest releases the legs. For me, tingle a little. The truth is settling and calming to the nervous system. And what validation is not is feeling somebody else's feelings, knowing somebody's experience For them, it is acknowledging that there can be more than one truth that exists in any given moment, and yours matters as much as anybody else's, but validating the self.

[00:14:33] We're really just talking about you. There is a truth to your experience that only you know, and when you admit that truth to yourself, it will set you free. What I encourage you to do, grab a journal, a blank piece of paper, or take a voice memo app on your phone and go for a walk if there is something that you're wrestling with a conversation you keep having with somebody in your mind, or a memory that your mind keeps going back to, there's almost always a thought that catches up to us when we're in those calm, relaxed, stable moments.

[00:15:07] So when a thought like that sneaks up on you, grab your pen and paper, grab your journal. Maybe it's the Treasure Journal.

[00:15:13] Take a breath and ask yourself what is true about this for me? If the answer is you don't know, that's okay. Start with you don't know. I don't know. I don't know yet. I don't know. I'm gonna figure it out though. I don't know. But what if I did know? If I had to say something about this, what would that be?

[00:15:37] Then take another breath and see what comes.

[00:15:41] When I set out to write a book, I only knew two things. One was I wanted to make big feelings, feel less scary and more approachable, and I wanted to bring some lightness to the feelings themselves. What I know to be true as a therapist is that emotions are energy in motion. They have information to tell you to inform the next right step to take and self-doubt, fear, anxiety, live in that space between knowing and not knowing.

[00:16:05] The second thing I knew was that I wanted to have fun in the process of making. This thing. The result is this wrestling a walrus for little people with big feelings, beautifully illustrated children's book that has a glossary at the end for some of the bigger feeling words. What this story does in a light and loving way is create context for those relationships.

[00:16:25] You can't change those people that you wish would treat you different. The things in life that we cannot control and yet we face that are hard. This book, it's a conversation starter for any littles in your life. Who want to create more safety and love and patience for some of those experiences. So hop one over to the show notes.

[00:16:43] You can pick it [email protected], barge de noble.com or my website. I hope that you do because I believe in this little book. I freaking love this little book, and I cannot wait to hear your experience with it. Thanks so much for listening and get back to the episode.

[00:16:56] Danielle: Thank you so much for joining me on this little nugget episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I love sharing these insights here with you and your time and attention here mean more to me than you could possibly know. This is such. Such a joy and such a pleasure.

[00:17:13] So I want to hear from you. Let me know. What did you think of this concept? What questions do you have about it that you would like me to help answer? I want to continue to grow this conversation with you. The best things in life are shared, and so being able to share this space is an absolute joy for me.

[00:17:31] A 10 outta 10. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being here. And before you hop off, I wanna invite you to take a look at the show notes because there are always links and resources for you. Whether it's resources that I offer or when I'm in interviews with other guests, links to their amazing content too.

[00:17:47] So make sure to check that out before you hop away. And please remember to rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast. It is the best way to help this podcast reach other people that could benefit from it too. It helps it grow and we can just continue to build things together. Thank you so much for being here, and I hope that you continue to have a wonderful day.

[00:18:05] ​

In this episode of 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs,' Danielle Ireland interviews adventurer and SDM Diving owner Eli Martinez. They discuss his unique career leading land and ocean safaris, dispelling myths about predators, and the connection between exploring the wild and self-discovery. Eli shares his journey from aspiring bull rider to renowned wildlife guide and photographer, emphasizing the therapeutic and transformative power of nature. Together, they explore how experiencing the wild fosters understanding, empathy, and personal growth.

RATE, REVIEW, SUBSCRIBE TO “DON’T CUT YOUR OWN BANGS” 

Like your favorite recipe or song, the best things in life are shared. When you rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast, your engagement helps me connect  with other listeners just like you. Plus, subscriptions just make life easier for everybody. It's one less thing for you to think about and you can easily keep up to date on everything that’s new. So, please rate, review, and subscribe today.

DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.

Connect with Eli:

• Book an adventure HERE - https://sdmdiving.com/
• Instagram

Connect with Danielle:

• Watch the show on YouTube
• Instagram
• The Treasured Journal
• Wrestling a Walrus

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest

00:13 Eli Martinez: The Adventurer's Journey

01:21 Connecting with Nature and Overcoming Fear

02:18 Building a Dream Career

05:59 Diving into the World of Sharks

12:16 The Power of Social Media and Storytelling

17:59 The Importance of Conservation and Ecotourism

21:40 Personal Growth Through Wildlife Experiences

28:40 Connecting with Nature and Self

29:07 The Lion Tracker's Guide to Life

29:38 Struggles with Anxiety and Self-Doubt

31:04 Emotional Awareness and Growth

32:00 Transformative Experiences in the Wild

35:03 Launching Shark Diver Magazine

35:55 Shifting from Magazine to Excursions

40:49 Dispelling the Predator Myth

48:28 Curiosity and Career Pivots

53:30 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Eli Martinez Podcast Interview

[00:00:00] Danielle: Hello. Hello. This is Danielle Ireland and you are listening to Don't Cut Your Own Banks and Today's Guest. this has been a long time coming for me. I am so excited beyond excited to introduce Eli Martinez. Eli is an adventurer.

[00:00:14] He's an explorer, he's an operator and owner of SDM Adventures. It's a group that leads land and ocean safaris. If you have ever seen these wild otherworldly images of people swimming with humpback whales, swimming with orca whales, swimming with crocodiles, swimming with anacondas. There's a good chance that you've stumbled across his images because he is one of the few, right?

[00:00:42] It's a pretty small pool of people who make a living doing what he does, Images, they grab your attention, they hook your imagination. But it being on a screen, it's easy to think, well, that's so far removed from my life. what value is there in that for me? Like that's a cool image. But the internet has lots of cool images.

[00:01:00] There's a couple of important distinctions and what I think makes this episode so special. What we talk about is dispelling the predator myth and my work as a therapist and his work as a safari guide. They don't seem too related, but there was one common thread that came out of this episode that it's gonna stick with me for a long time.

[00:01:21] He's guiding people into the natural world to feel connected to the natural world in a deep and profound way. And when anybody sits with their emotional space. With their feelings. Feelings of discomfort, fear, terror, trauma. That's really hard to do and hard to hold. But when you do and access curiosity, you begin to tap into your true nature.

[00:01:49] Your intuition, and so Eli might be talking about sharks and the deep ocean, and I might be talking about feelings, but there is a common thread in language here that makes this episode already one of my favorites. I can't wait for you to hear his story because not only is the work itself that we spent a lot of time talking about, fascinating.

[00:02:10] He leads people on wildlife safaris in the ocean, on land. I mean, it's just. What a cool, amazing job. But he built that job. There wasn't an application for him to fill out. He built this from the ground up and there were stumbling blocks, missteps and pivots along the way, and he shares those with us.

[00:02:30] So not only can we learn about how could I build a dream that I didn't know was possible, you also have the benefit of. Really getting a sense of what is it like, what is the value, what is the purpose? And I would argue where is the healing in connecting with the natural world, whether that's through a hike or through looking out your window.

[00:02:53] And as he states a couple of times, just watch a sunset. Really watch a sunset. So I'm gonna save that. I'm gonna leave that for you there. Thank you for being here. You're gonna love this episode. Welcome, Eli Martinez.

[00:03:08]

[00:04:18] Danielle: Eli Martinez, thank you so much for being here with Don't cut your own bangs.

[00:04:23] This is not the first time we've met, but this is the first time we've done a podcast together and I am like the little kid in me who wanted to be a marine biologist when she first knew what dolphins were.

[00:04:34] This feels like just she feels so greedy with excitement to talk to someone who has made a living, being an adventure traveler and swimming with animals and interacting with animals all over the world. So I'm very excited to talk to you.

[00:04:47] Eli: Actually, I was a little self-conscious about it because of, because of your background in psychology.

[00:04:52] I'm like, okay, all right. where do I start?

[00:04:55] Danielle: You know what? Yes. your family actually told me to schedule this podcast interview so that we could really get into what makes Eli tick. No, no, no, no, no., This is a celebration what I'm curious about personally, not just professionally working as a therapist, but I love understanding what leads people down, whatever path they end on.

[00:05:16] And probably a lot of that is because I mistakenly thought during my twenties that you went through the school system. You graduate with a degree, you start working in that career, and you follow all of the steps to be a good. Citizen and that was not my path, and it was a lot more twisty and turny and there were a lot of pivots and I can see that now as of value.

[00:05:43] But, in those moments where I thought I knew what I was going to be doing and life took me in a different direction, it. Knocked me down pretty hard I think there were a lot of moments where I felt like I was failing or wasn't doing it right, using air quotes of whatever it is.

[00:05:59] And so someone like you who, are a storyteller, explorer, wildlife photographer, and have spent your life chasing the wild. you lead ocean and land wildlife, safaris. I love that distinction. Ocean and land, wildlife safaris.

[00:06:15] There is not, you can't go to high school and then college and then just start doing what you're doing. There's no Reddit, there's no LinkedIn interview that you can fulfill to make that a career. You had to chisel that together. And so I really wanna understand that more. how you built this dream.

[00:06:36] What seems from afar, like a dream life? And I'm sure it is many days, but I wanna know how you did it.

[00:06:43] Eli: animals have always been like my first love, as a child, I can remember my first toys were animals. my dream as a child was to become a wildlife veterinarian. that was the only way I knew that I could actually physically be around animals that, 'cause I had no idea about wildlife guiding or photography or storytelling

[00:07:05] So veterinarian was the only way I could get close to a zebra or a giraffe. And I said, that's what I want to do. So as a child, that was like that one dream that I had. And of course, life gets in the way and I went to a completely different route. I actually went to school to be a motorcycle mechanic.

[00:07:23] So what?

[00:07:24] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:07:24] Eli: That's

[00:07:25] Danielle: definitely a different route.

[00:07:26] Eli: Yeah. No, it was, I fell in love with race bikes and I wanted to travel the world. look, me being a mechanic for race teams, that was my thing. I love motorcycles, but I like wrenching them. I like working on them more than I like writing them for, it's just my DNA, just how I like to be.

[00:07:43] Fast forward a bunch of years, I fell in love with shark diving. I went scuba diving and on my very first. Dive. I saw a shark and it terrified me. It excited me. filled me with everything that I enjoyed about wildlife to begin with.

[00:08:00] And it was coming out of the water that I realized I knew absolutely nothing about sharks. Everything I thought I knew was wrong.

[00:08:09] Mm-hmm. ,

[00:08:10] So I, came outta the water that day and I was just completely fascinated, really obsessed with learning more about sharks. So I, I bought every book I could find.

[00:08:20] I read as much as I could about them, and I just was like, I gotta get in the water with them some more. And it was on my very first, travel. I went to The Bahamas and it was on that experience is. What got me on this path that I'm on today was just like, I want to dive with sharks. I want to travel to exotic places.

[00:08:41] I want to meet amazing people,

[00:08:43] Danielle: How do you wait? Do okay? I, okay, so we're gonna get to the how. So you fell in love, and now it's the how, but I wanna go back. Do you remember the first shark, like in your, can you access that memory and do you know the shark?

[00:08:55] I can. What was it? It was a bull shark. Oh, whoa. Okay. Yeah. that's gnarly. Yeah, that is. okay. The first shark you ever swam with was a bull shark. I don't know why that's like the one that scares me. I, I can relate. So not to put on the therapy hat for, for anything other than just, I find this so interesting that the things that scared me, I wanted to learn more about, I found endlessly interesting.

[00:09:21] And when I was young it was the ocean, the deep ocean, And I really became, in the way that a suburban kid could really curious about sharks and very interested in sharks. And I would always talk about them and just rattle off a bunch of shark facts.

[00:09:36] And I, as you were talking, you reminded me of the fork in the road moment where I thought. What I thought was I wanted to work with animals. What I realized was, oh, I just kinda like you love turning wrenches more than you love racing. I love learning about animals more than I want to. I'll just tell the story.

[00:09:57] When I was, 13 or 14, I applied for a summer job at our Indianapolis Zoo. that really burst my bubble of what that was gonna mean. I wanted to work with animals. But I realized, I just wanted to play with the elephants. I didn't wanna do the dipping dots concession stand.

[00:10:14] So there's this sense of you, you were afraid you shared that. I dove with sharks. I swam with a bull shark. I came outta the water. I was afraid and then fascinated. is that something there, is that like a theme for you that you feel a jolt or a rush and then you wanna understand that rush more?

[00:10:31] Possibly,

[00:10:32] Eli: it was just more of like, when I saw the shark, I had two primal instincts, which was, one was to follow it. And the other was to get outta the water. That was just like those two conflicting feelings that was going through me.

[00:10:46] And the, when I was, I ran out of air really quick 'cause it was actually my very first ocean dive.

[00:10:51] Okay. So I was sitting on the surface, the dive master sent me up to the surface by myself, which is crazy. And when I think about it, man, I didn't know anything I was doing. I'm just looking down.

[00:11:01] I'm just like, really worried the shark is gonna come up and get me 'cause I'm on the surface. And that's all I knew. I always knew. I knew the jaw story. I knew a little, just very small snippets of information on sharks and Yeah. And it was completely opposite of what was happening. the shark wanted nothing to do with us.

[00:11:17] It tried to avoid us completely.

[00:11:18] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:11:19] Eli: Got out of the water and then the whole way back to port, I was just like, okay. He didn't come after us. He didn't want anything to do with this.

[00:11:28] Like, why? and it was that moment that was just like, after that I got out of the water, I'm like, okay. I gotta know. I gotta know. yeah.

[00:11:36] Danielle: what you thought you knew, conflicted with what you experienced, and you were trying to understand that more.

[00:11:42] Eli: Right.

[00:11:43] Danielle: That's really interesting. I can relate to that. I honestly think that's a big thread of what led me to therapy. I wanted to understand my internal experience more. And I think there's, steps of you're introduced to a concept and then you embody the concept.

[00:11:57] you're no longer having to consciously think about it, but really mastery when you're able to teach. And so I think in many ways I wanted to understand that enough to help others, but it began through my own experience and my own curiosity. so I feel like I should mention, How I got connected with you.

[00:12:16] I think social media gets a bad rap. it gets a lot of bad press, but thank God for social media. it was in 2012 or 13 and I was watching Shark Week because you always gotta be watching Shark Week.

[00:12:27] I was watching Shark Week and the whole episode I was watching was, they were trying to see could large species sharks experience the same temporary paralysis as smaller or baby sharks when they're flipped upside down for study? And I was, of course they're doing all of these great cuts, is it gonna work?

[00:12:43] Who knows? Is it gonna work? And of course, they're gonna end it with it working, you're on the edge of your seat. what are they gonna do? What are they gonna do? And they showed a clip of you with a tiger shark in The Bahamas and you were like hand feeding it. And then you stimulated the and you correct me with all the science terms, but you were like stimulating the sout and it just put it in this little trance and then you just tipped it upright.

[00:13:06] You just, it stood vertical and you held it just, a shark, a tiger shark. Yeah. I don't know. Was like 16 feet, 15 feet, something like that.

[00:13:15] Eli: Possibly. yeah. Anyway, it

[00:13:17] Danielle: blew my mind and I think I just made a post about it. I took a picture of my tv. I was like, my mind is blown.

[00:13:24] And then some weeks later you commented, thanks so much for the shout out. And that was one of those first moments. That really connected with oh, you can actually connect with the people who were doing things that you think is cool. it just, it really bridged this gap. And then once, of course, I found out what you and your family, 'cause it's a family band, it's like a whole, it's the whole family involved on these excursions.

[00:13:46] But as soon as I made that connection, my husband and I signed up to, swim with Whale Sharks with you and your wife, and your son and your daughter. So that's just, I feel like I gotta give credit to, the algorithm and the innerwebs for making that possible. 'cause I don't know if I would've even thought that was a possibility.

[00:14:05] Eli: Oh, that's, thanks for sharing that. I, man, that story just,,

[00:14:09] Danielle: mm-hmm.

[00:14:10] Eli: Wow. Just flooded with memory with that little piece.

[00:14:13] Danielle: Yeah, it was,

[00:14:14] When I set out to write a book, I only knew two things. One was I wanted to make big feelings, feel less scary and more approachable, and I wanted to bring some lightness to the feelings themselves. What I know to be true as a therapist is that emotions are energy in motion. They have information to tell you to inform the next right step to take and self-doubt, fear, anxiety, live in that space between knowing and not knowing.

[00:14:38] The second thing I knew was that I wanted to have fun in the process of making. This thing. The result is this wrestling a walrus for little people with big feelings, beautifully illustrated children's book that has a glossary at the end for some of the bigger feeling words. What this story does in a light and loving way is create context for those relationships.

[00:14:58] You can't change those people that you wish would treat you different. The things in life that we cannot control and yet we face that are hard. This book, it's a conversation starter for any littles in your life. Who want to create more safety and love and patience for some of those experiences. So hop one over to the show notes.

[00:15:16] You can pick it [email protected], barge de noble.com or my website. I hope that you do because I believe in this little book. I freaking love this little book, and I cannot wait to hear your experience with it. Thanks so much for listening and get back to the episode.

[00:15:29] Eli: those are fun, fun shows to do. and there's definitely a lot of benefits to social media, I think. I think it's a great tool. It's a great servant, A terrible master.

[00:15:41] That's the best way I can describe it. said. yeah, it is just, there's so many benefits to, connecting with people on the other side of the world to learning about unique places, to learning unique things. it's been one of my most important tools when finding new places for wildlife.

[00:15:58] but on the flip side, there's sometimes there's just too much information out there and too much because of it. it's made life difficult for wildlife, difficult for kids, difficult for, it's just. It can be too much. And that's the only downside

[00:16:14] Danielle: it's like, how we engage with it. It's an extension of how we are showing up with it, what we're looking for, what interests us.

[00:16:21] what I love about how you show up there and how your family shows up there with images is it really, I think, highlights How we operate. we look first and then we listen second. And so you'll capture these images or these videos that seem other worldly and it catches your attention enough.

[00:16:43] And if you can hold that attention enough, and it probably helps that your message is consistent of conservation, understanding, connecting with nature. when you can capture someone's attention with an image, just what happened with me?

[00:16:56] And then you can maybe engage in a dialogue . And it actually leads me to something, that you mentioned. Something I caught from your website that I really liked this language, that when people experience the wild, they understand and when they understand they care.

[00:17:12] And that sounds much like the experience you had swimming with the bull shark. But I wanna know more about that because you, not only through, your media outlets and the content you put out, but you are handholding, you're guiding people into the water or in, ocean and land safaris.

[00:17:31] And I wanna understand more about this concept 'cause I think it's true of emotions too. If you can't articulate what you're feeling, then when people don't have language for what they're experiencing, they usually shut down and collapse or they explode with rage. it's gotta go somewhere.

[00:17:46] And so when you can create context and language, you also create safety. it seems like with what you're guiding people through, you want them to understand and so that they care. yeah, tell me more.

[00:17:59] Eli: Yeah, that has a lot to do with just experiences being out in nature.

[00:18:04] I think nature is probably one of the best doctors on the planet. first and foremost, I think that people being around wildlife, people being in the ocean, people being in the wilderness, it replenishes your soul. It recharges your batteries. I think it just makes you a better person.

[00:18:21] it's through these connections and meeting wildlife and having people go out there in the wild and see these places and see these animals and they come back and they tell stories, they tell their friends.

[00:18:31] And hopefully it's through those kind of connections that,

[00:18:36] Conservation comes out of, like at the end of the day, the animals win. That's what you're hoping for is for the animals to win because these are voiceless souls on our planet that share this world with us. and without these people, without these experiences, they're completely vulnerable for lack of better words, to bigger business, to sadly going away, for lack of better words.

[00:18:56] Danielle: I think one of the biggest problems that animals have is that they are second class citizens on our planet that we share. And unfortunately, we're seeing our wild places disappear. alarmingly fast, and it's, I think that conservation ecotourism are probably the only tools left that are going to save, what's left of our wild places, what's left of our wildlife, Let's try to get some people on your wildlife safaris. What would be, so if someone's listening who has maybe like me, just from a television screen or from a social media account, wondered, that would be cool, but that could never work for me. I could never do something like that.

[00:19:40] That it just, when you're. Physical reality or even your mental reality feels so removed from the wild world. we live in boxed rooms and we're so connected with screens and, my wildlife outside my window is squirrels, cardinals.

[00:19:58] Eli: That's perfect.

[00:19:58] Danielle: So how would you speak life into someone saying yes to an adventure and where do they begin?

[00:20:07] Eli: Oh man. I think it really, first and foremost, it all comes down to your comfort level. I think that there's so many ways for people to reconnect with nature, whether it's hiking, whether it's biking, whether it's going to the beach for the day, watching a sunset.

[00:20:23] Just watching a sunset is so powerful. I think it's so important. I don't think we do it enough. I think that is probably the simplest way to remember that you are a part of something bigger and as simple as it sounds, it is so important. now watching a sunset in an amazing place is even 10 times better.

[00:20:42] It's that much more powerful. just, trying to reconnect with nature, I think the important part to remind people that yes. The earth is here. She is alive and she breathes and she's got a heartbeat every day. And I think that sunset is her heartbeat.

[00:20:55] and it's a great way to see it.

[00:20:57] Danielle: I just saw, I think it was nasa, release some footage of a particular, some type of lens on a satellite that was able to actually detect a pulse on the earth.

[00:21:08] Like the earth has a heartbeat, but I'm sure the more sciencey people have another way of explaining it. but that it caught my attention. And that feels just right on par with what you're saying when the heart space and the head space connect, I think that's where magic happens.

[00:21:22] Like when you can believe it in your mind, but then you experience it in your body, that is, powerful. I think everybody needs to have an experience like getting into the deep ocean or going out into the wild nature. I really think everybody should have that in their life at least once.

[00:21:40] But I wanna share a little bit about what my experience was like , with, um, you and your wife swimming with winter parks, because it was there was so much momentum for me built up into what I thought that experience was gonna be because from the time I understood. Little mermaid, Disney to the time I, could name the dolphin body parts and thought that's what I wanted to be like this, there was so much emotional charge and I'm gonna go in the water and I'm gonna swim and it's gonna be great.

[00:22:11] And I just had this idea that I'm gonna connect with this shark. We're gonna make eye contact and it's gonna, we're gonna just be on the same vibe. so many expectations that I never expressed, but they were all there. I was, probably trying to keep it cool. But, no,the reality it, the i'll, I will just to skip to the end, the reality far exceeds whatever I imagine.

[00:22:31] the first day was me reconciling what I thought it would be and what it really was. Getting on a little charter boat going way out in the middle of the gulf and. Then, I think sturgeon were spawning and that was what was drawing the sharks. And so it made visibility like all of these little eggs were refracting light.

[00:22:51] So it was this very sparkly, but also sometimes visibility was funky. And the thing that I couldn't wrap my head around was from the boat. You could look out at the water and see, I don't know, a dozen whale sharks at any given time, but then you get in the water and adrenaline hits and I don't know where they are.

[00:23:13] I can't see them. It's just having very little to no experience in the deep water. That was such a jolt and a shock to my system. and then being in the water with an animal, 20 feet, 25 feet, 30 feet long, My nervous system just didn't know how to compute. it was so much, I don't think I'd ever been that tired, ever.

[00:23:37] Just, it took so much outta me. And then, day 2, 3, 4, each day got a little easier 'cause I had a better idea of what to expect. And also I didn't, you're covered in fish eggs, you're culvert in fish eggs. So the, the imagination that I would become this mermaid this other worldly creature and have this like soul bond with a whale shark, it wasn't that.

[00:23:59] But the real life experience was incredible too. But I just, I don't, and I guess I don't really know where I'm leading with the question, but how do you see when having guided so many people through these moments? Like for somebody who's thinking about. Possibly planning an experience like that?

[00:24:20] Like what, how do you prepare what would be good for someone to prepare for what that is like?

[00:24:26] Eli: Wow, man. it's so different for everybody. it's just, valid.

[00:24:30] Danielle: Valid. Then everybody maybe wants to be

[00:24:32] Eli: Yeah. there's a few that want to be mermaids for sure on our trips. I'm not gonna lie.

[00:24:38] but yeah, it's just really these animals the whale shark is a great, I call 'em, they're like gateway animals into a bigger world because, when it comes to seeing orcas and whales and of all different species and sharks, a whale shark is possibly,

[00:24:55] It's a great ambassador for the species because they're a harmless species. They're just like big giant catfish floating on the surface. and it's a wonderful animal for someone of all ages to experience. it really is,

[00:25:10] the whale shark, and I don't know if you had man rays on your trip as well, because Sometimes they show up every other year. The man ray is another, ocean angel. they're just, they're just, the perfect animal for people, for if you wanna.

[00:25:24] Experience the ocean. If you wanna experience what life is like in the ocean, in a Disney way, that is the perfect animal to do it with. It's just very safe. it's a phenomenal, way to decide if, you know what? I would like to do more of things like this, or, this was perfect, this was enough.

[00:25:43] You know,

[00:25:45] Danielle: I wanna go back to something, something that you wrote that I really liked. that reminded me.

[00:25:50] Even though we are talking about safari, we're talking about adventure, we're talking about animals, I think the more specific we become in a way, the more universal it becomes. And this quote made me think about a lot of the stuff that you write, it's a Mark Twain quote that travel is fatal to prejudice.

[00:26:09] once you see something, you can't unsee something. I wanna speak to the, Why beyond conservation? if I'm not connected to nature, if I'm not connected to animals and I've got enough going on in my life, that conservation, cool, I'm glad someone's taking care of it, but that's not my focus.

[00:26:29] What would be a personal selfish reason that would be maybe a call to action that you like? What would be the invitation for somebody individually, not globally, not, for any other reason, like why it could change your life to jump into the deep or get in a Jeep with no top and go drive out to a pride of lions.

[00:26:55] what is the reason that you could articulate why somebody should do that?

[00:27:00] Eli: I think the wildlife is, they're reminders of where we all came from. we were all of us in our DNA, if you look at the generations of people that have lived on this planet, at some point we were all part of that. We were all out there.

[00:27:18] there wasn't this separation between us and our wild places. whether it was the ocean, whether it was a jungle. some of our ancestors had to deal with bears in their front porch. some of our ancestors had to deal with lions walking through camp.

[00:27:34] that's something that we have either. Blocked out or forgotten. Obviously we've forgotten just because of generations of separation from it. But we are all part of that. We are all part of this world. beyond our cars and our homes and our clothes, we are part of nature a hundred percent.

[00:27:55] We've forgotten this. And I think these are great reminders to remind us, Hey, this is where we all come from. This is, we're not separated from these things. we are very much a part of these things. And if anything, there are so many species that, although they're no longer, relevant in our world, they're so important for our world, not only as reminders, but as part of this giant balance, because we're all connected in some way, in some form.

[00:28:23] we're all for lack of better, we're all one. And I think it's important. To remind people that, like we, we need to stay connected. We need to protect these animals because, they're much a part of this earth as we are. and we have to remind people that they're there yeah, that, that's,

[00:28:44] This is our home. This is their home. This is our home.

[00:28:47] Danielle: And I also, what I'm hearing too, it's they, when you're in communion with nature, you become more in touch with, or in tune with your own natural rhythm, your own self. There's, you might actually, know him or, 'cause I would imagine the community, like the pool you're in terms of career is probably small, I'm just guessing.

[00:29:07] But, Boyd Verdi, he's from South Africa, he wrote The Lion Tracker's Guide to Life He has a property in South Africa called Alose. It was a game preserved. Okay. Yeah. Yes, I, and but his work in that book is basically teaching people to track wild animals, helps them become more in touch with the rhythms of nature.

[00:29:29] And by, not by default, but through becoming more in tune with tracking nature, you, your track, like your path. So I think so many of the clients I attract are struggling with anxiety, depression, and burnout. And I think a lot of the confusion and self doubt and, head trash is also rooted in, I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

[00:29:54] It's that maybe they don't articulate it like that, but it's experienced that way of just, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. As opposed to, I wanna know what I'm called to do. I wanna know what I'm meant to do or what I want to do. my dog never questions when she's hungry, when she's tired, like she is completely embodied because she doesn't have this giant brain getting in her way of everything.

[00:30:19] And I love hearing you talk about the more in tune you are with nature, you are reminded that you are nature too.

[00:30:27] Eli: it's it's so important for people to stay connected to nature and it's getting worse. I think it's just part of I.

[00:30:35] Part of what I feel is that they're completely pulling us away from it. I think that unhealthy feeling, I remember having it as a growing up. I remember there was many times where I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know, what my calling was but I always just, I remember standing there and just looking around saying, something's wrong.

[00:31:00] I don't belong here.

[00:31:01] Danielle: that's something's wrong. the language I like to use. with clients is, that's usually what gets people into an appointment with me first. It's when I say it's like your smoke detector's going off. 'cause your smoke detector can't tell the difference between burning toast or bacon and a fire in some part of your house, but it's just beeping 'cause it senses smoke, something's wrong.

[00:31:20] And so I think a lot of times getting that emotional awareness or that clarity starts with something's wrong and then you sit with that. But then the discomfort, it's like I think about that story with you and the bull shark the first time it's, I either need to chase it and funnel down with it or I need to run away from it.

[00:31:40] And I think that tension is what happens every time we hit a big emotion or a fork in the road or we're at a growth edge, we're about to change. but I think that is the. Following the path of curiosity is almost always what leads you down to some new sense of understanding, about yourself or the world.

[00:32:00] I wanna, do you have, of all of the experiences you've led other people through, do you have It could be one, it could be more than one, it might even be with a member of your family, but have you seen, like shifts happen in people that just observed? 'cause I have over the years seen many powerful shifts happen in sessions, but it's such an intimate thing, but where you're out in the wild with someone, are there any moments that stand out to you of just being like, whoa, this person is different, or this person is really having an experience here?

[00:32:35] Eli: Yeah. I have this one gentleman who. would do adventures. he would do travel on his own, and then he went on one of our trips a very successful, businessman. and I could see that this was just something he was doing for like, and that's interesting.

[00:32:54]

[00:32:54] Danielle: on

[00:32:54] Eli: That's so interesting. Yeah. He was, he was on the trip And he was there to experience the animal, but it was almost like a science project, it wasn't like it was super into the animal. Like he was intellectualizing it. he was, it was like, it wasn't like

[00:33:11] a bucket list. It was like, okay, I'm on this journey of I'm gonna photograph wildlife. Now, I've been photographing these other things and I'm gonna photograph wildlife now. we went out there, he had the experience and it was almost like this.

[00:33:25] Yeah. You could feel the shift of just now I get it. oh, I got a goosebump thinking about it. Yeah. it was like now. Okay, okay. You know, it was, it was,

[00:33:35] Danielle: it was like his body, like it kicked on.

[00:33:38] Eli: Yeah. something inside him came alive

[00:33:41] And it was just like more. And it was a completely different, more than when he first started and it was something

[00:33:47] Danielle: beside him came alive. That gave me chills. I almost wonder if it's the distinction of when you were describing a sunset, like the difference between driving in your car and you're getting somewhere as the sun happens to be going down and you're doing a million other things versus watching a sunset and taking it in.

[00:34:08] So not being just a passive observer, but being a present participant in the moment.

[00:34:14] Eli: Yeah. Purposely trying to watch, I'm going to this spot because I want to see the sunset, or I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop to put my phone down and I'm gonna watch the sunset. Even if you take your phone, you know you're watching it through your phone as you wanna record it, because that's what we do now.

[00:34:31] just that act alone of purposely trying to do that is significant. It is life changing to sometimes for some people.

[00:34:38] Danielle: That's awesome. that was a really good answer. I wanna hear a little bit more. So I was circling back, you were starting to connect how that first dive, you were scuba diving, you saw the bull shark, you were swimming up to the surface, and then you almost started to shift to how that led you down this path.

[00:34:57] I wanna go back to that and maybe if I could jump forward a little bit more in your story. You created Shark Diver Magazine in 2003, and you said you had 25 publications and then it really, the business model really shifted to your excursions. I wanna know more about, deciding to launch a magazine that sounds so ambitious, 25.

[00:35:21] me trying to put a blog out sometimes feels like a real effort. but 25 publications is no small thing. And then you shifted it to excursions. it's one thing to do something yourself as a hobbyist or as an enthusiast, but you're leading people with all varying degrees of experience.

[00:35:40] Some people that wanna be, mermaids and you're leading all types of people from all over the world on these trips and you're dealing with a lot of personalities. I would love to know more about how you made that shift from the magazine into leading your safaris.

[00:35:55] Eli: Yeah, it was, so I started the magazine, in 2003. I didn't know anything about publishing. I didn't know anything about photography. I didn't know. Anybody in the business. And I had never really written anything outside of my journals before.

[00:36:14] Danielle: So it was just like, I am, I'm so excited by this.

[00:36:16] You're like, I am gonna build a rocket ship, but I don't have an engineering degree. I don't understand the mechanics. and I've never flown on a plane, but I'm gonna build a rocket ship.

[00:36:25] Eli: what I did. Yeah. So I just, I went all in. I've always had a love affair with magazines as far as, any sport that I was into.

[00:36:34] Had a magazine dedicated to it with mountain biking, surfing, rock climbing, scuba diving. but there was nothing dedicated to shark diving. And that's the area that I fell in love with. And I said, here's my, and I really was trying to find. A vehicle. And a way to get into the industry, to make a name for myself, coming from Landlock, Texas.

[00:36:54] there was, this was my way in. This was an opportunity. And this is all pre-social media, so it was all from scratch and trying to create this business. And, yeah, we did it for eight years. I published 25 issues and it was a lot of fun. And it was, a lot of laying in bed going, what the hell did I do?

[00:37:14] Why did I do this to myself? And, this is crazy. And it was fueled by also, I, the first pub, the first magazine I came out with, a family friend. I overheard him in the distance, say I wonder if it's gonna be around in a year. And that, so I wrote those words down and I put it in my office.

[00:37:36] and that, inspired me to make it to the first year it was a, and then after that, I made it to the second and the third. it was just this labor of love. This, chance for me to tell stories, chance for me to share this world with people.

[00:37:50] because, when I first started and when I was looking through the books, it really felt like, , a, a club. And it really felt more like a researcher's club more than anything else. It was like, the guys who had access to all these amazing places were usually the scientists, the shark scientists, the shark researchers.

[00:38:06] And it really didn't feel like it was open to guys like me. And so this is the world that I wanted to create. I wanted to create a world where it was open to. Sharks were accessible to the world. And that's what I wanted to do with this magazine. and what I wanted to do with my storytelling is invite everybody who was really interested in sharks like myself and help them find places where they could dive with these animals and read stories from fellow people like myself that were not all scientists, we're not all research.

[00:38:36] yeah. So that was the idea. That was what I really wanted to do when I started the magazine. And then, trying to get advertisers to be interested in us when we had zero subscribers and no real history, and it was just like, mm-hmm. That was an impossible feat. So I don't know where I came up with the idea.

[00:38:54] Somebody either shared that idea with me or I was doing my research. I just decided to try to organize, oh, I know what it was. It was one of my potential sponsors asking me to organize a trip. And that's what started the opportunities is it's a great way to raise money.

[00:39:12] If I can get people to travel with us, we can use that money to help publish the magazine. Yeah. And that's what the first trips were. So May I ran our first expedition to North Carolina for Sand Tiger Sharks in May of 2003. So that first year coming out of the box, we, we brought some people and we just started doing that.

[00:39:32] So from the first year we organized those trips, and then we just, it just kept going. and it was, and it ended up being the way I funded the magazine for the first eight years. I didn't, after that I really didn't chase sponsors very much because I just didn't like, I'd go to a travel show.

[00:39:48] And then we, and. It would be, I would end up being that magazine guy that's just trying to get money from me. Yeah. And I didn't like that feeling at all. So I just said, you know what, I don't need to do this. this is what the trips are about. It's reader sponsored, and I can do whatever I want with a magazine.

[00:40:04] I can tell the stories the way I want to tell 'em. and so that's what I did.

[00:40:08] Danielle: I think because we've all been sold so many different times through so many different channels, it's like you can feel it when it's coming at you.

[00:40:15] And nobody likes that. So it's just so much this is what it is, this is what we're doing, this is what I like. gosh, having come from different sales backgrounds and have family and my husband who's in sales, it's like when a sale happens, you're really just offering information.

[00:40:31] It's I don't, my guess is you're not selling people ongoing on your trips, right? People are already interested. You're giving them the information and then that's when they say yes. But you're not going out selling people on doing it. I feel like I'm trying to do that for you. 'cause I just think more people need to do it.

[00:40:46] You are very intentionally not doing that. I want to acknowledge the predator myth, I found it really interesting that you were passionate about dispelling the predator myth. I wanna understand that better because obviously we all know how sharks are portrayed.

[00:41:01] we've seen all those things. but I think the ocean, deep ocean and what we fear in the ocean, it correlates to emotions, big, uncomfortable feelings. I don't think it's called a therapy myth, but there has to be something terribly wrong to seek that type of help or seek that type of guidance.

[00:41:20] and I wanna know more in your world, in your space, what is the predator myth and what do you want people to know?

[00:41:28] Eli: Oh, for me its exactly what I was brought up believing about sharks is just that, sharks are mindless monsters and they're just out to get you.

[00:41:37] And the moment you step in the ocean, there's gonna be a shark down there. And, I've heard this. My entire life that, oh, I'll never jump off a boat into the ocean because there's just sharks waiting.

[00:41:47] Danielle:

[00:41:47] Eli: me, and it's completely opposite. I really wish that if I just went out into the ocean, jumped off a boat and there'd be a bunch of sharks there, it's just not the reality.

[00:41:58] It takes so much work to find these animals. It takes a lot of effort and usually the people That get lucky and say, oh look, there's a great white under my boat. they're the ones who don't wanna see sharks. the people that wanna see sharks like a great white under their boat, never get to see a great white under their boat.

[00:42:15] that's just the way nature works. But, yeah, for me it was more about, trying to help people pass this prejudice, pass this belief system that is ingrained in us, that's actually probably ingrained in our DNA

[00:42:27] So it's very much ingrained in all of us from the beginning. And the more I understood sharks, the more I wanted to get rid of that stigma as best I could. Yeah. I started doing a lot of, Talks at schools and helping kids with, sharing, what I know about sharks, and I've through the years, really figured out what works and what doesn't.

[00:42:48] And I used to show pictures of sharks and try to get people to dispel their fear with just a picture of shark, but in their mind, it's still a shark.

[00:42:57] But when I started sharing videos of myself with a shark in my arms and giving a back rub and rolling them upside down and just, like a shark sticking his face between my knees so I could scratch his back.

[00:43:10] and showing these kids these images and showing these kids that, this other side, and you could see it, you see it in the teachers. they're just like, wait. Mm-hmm. Wait, what? Wait, what? It's like you wake them up, you wake up something primal in them and say, wait, that's possible.

[00:43:24] Danielle: yes. That you just said it, 'cause I think that you don't have to prove to someone what you're saying is true, but what you're showing them is it's possible. I think it's when you don't believe it's possible, that's when people freeze or shut down or wanna give up or stop.

[00:43:39] And it's when we're afraid we want control, we want contracts, we want guarantees, we want promises, we need something ironclad. But, there is no guarantee. But knowing that, there's something possible that's really, yeah. I feel that really deeply. Yeah. you're igniting possibility in people.

[00:43:58] It, you also just reminded me too, I love Leopard Sharks. I've never swam with them, but, I love leopard Sharks and I feel like that. That shark more than any other, you see them almost act like little dogs, like just anyone listening, just Google videos of like leopard shark pups. And they swear, they just act like dogs.

[00:44:14] So cute down. They're beautiful. What is the, what do you think is the biggest gap in our understanding of not just predators, but marine life, wildlife? what's our biggest gap in understanding?

[00:44:29] Eli: I think it's disconnect. like you said earlier, it's, oh, I'm glad somebody out there is doing it.

[00:44:34] that kind of thing. It's it's not for me. I got too many things I'm doing in my life, my life is a mess, Lack of empathy for something. and that has to do with disconnect because it's more of, it's talking about the shark,

[00:44:46] it's one thing to talk about, it's another thing for people to see it. And, in them, me, roll the tiger. just like open that up in your mind, the fascination in your mind of oh wow, like I didn't even know this was a thing. Or if it's even possible. And that's what I've tried to do

[00:45:01] predators and with crocodiles and anacondas and all the other animals that I dive with is just showing the other side of these animals and, their place in the world And how important they are. And it's not just, when we jump in the water with an anaconda and if, people are so surprised to know that it's.

[00:45:18] the Anaconda is terrified and all he's trying to do is hide from us. So you're looking at a 18 foot, 20 foot long snake. the moment I jump in the water and he's just like, where do I hide? it's like he's completely terrified of my presence.

[00:45:32]

[00:45:32] Danielle: the crocodile, those images just, everyone should visit Eli's, social media channels as soon as you, you stop listening to this episode, just go scroll through and look. But the crocodile one, those, late night scrolling, when I see one of those images that stops me in my tracks, and I thought I was pretty open-minded with nature, but man, that, that makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

[00:45:54] That's wild.

[00:45:56] Eli: I used to say Crocs of the new Sharks. Okay, sure. I feel that makes sense. So yeah, because for years, right? when I started the magazine in 2003, it was still Steve Irwin. Mm-hmm. The late great Steve Irwin was still diving with Tiger Sharks in a cage.

[00:46:11] on his show, he was showing, that diving with them in a cage. so for years they're like,it's impossible to dive with tigers outside of a cage. Then, in The Bahamas and Fiji, they're diving with tigers outside the cage and they're like, you can do it during the day, but you can't do it at night.

[00:46:27] So we started diving with tigers at night, and then they're like, you can do that with a tiger, but you can't do it with a great white. Yeah, we're diving outside the cage with great whites. And so, I mean, it was just like, well, you could do it with sharks, but you can't do it with crocodiles.

[00:46:39] Danielle: You're right. You're right. It's the same prejudice, just moving into a different face.

[00:46:44] Eli: Right. Oh, interesting. The same thing with orcas too. Like you can, when they're like, you can't swim with an orca. we started swimming with orcas and then, you can do it with these, but you can't do it with the pelagic orcas because, they're a lot more aggressive and they eat sea lions.

[00:46:56] And so we're diving with those species too. it's just they're always trying to find, and it's usually people who don't swim with these animals that are creating the ideas that people believe,

[00:47:07] Danielle: you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's like the people that aren't the mechanics or the one trying to pump the brakes.

[00:47:12] Um, I, so I saw on your social media just this morning that you said the duck bill platypus is your unicorn. Yes. That was, it wasn't intended to be a question, but I have to ask, why is the Depa plat picture your unicorn

[00:47:24] Eli: as a kid? I, that was one of the first most exotic animals I had ever seen.

[00:47:31] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:47:31] Eli: This book in second grade, that I read about the platypus and it was, the fact that it lays eggs and that it's got a duck bill and it looks like a beaver, but it's not. and it was just a fascination was born in that moment. And it was something that like, I have to see this animal.

[00:47:50] Like I just have to, so it's always been, it's been my unicorn. I have, I'm ashamed to say I've never been to Australia.

[00:47:57] But as soon as I do, that is like task number one. I gotta see a platypus like this. Okay.

[00:48:03] Danielle: that was gonna be my follow up question because I embarrassingly don't know where the poses live. So I was gonna ask you where would one, find one. Okay. So Australia. Perfect. I actually think there's a couple of Australian listeners. I don't know where in Australia. I just see this map and wherever it's highlighted that shows where people have downloaded episodes.

[00:48:20] So anyone in Australia don't miss your opportunity to catch a platypus because Eli's gonna come snap some photos. Okay. So we're nearing the end and I'm really excited to lay out the don't cut your own bangs moment with you. 'cause I have a feeling you probably have too many that could just fill up its own episode.

[00:48:41] But I would love to know what a don't cut your own bang moment is for you.

[00:48:45] Eli: I spent a big part of my youth trying to become a professional bull writer growing up in Texas. What.

[00:48:57] Danielle: Okay. Okay. This is good. This is already, this is already one of the top two. Okay. Go on.

[00:49:01] Eli: So I wanted to be a world champion bull rider.

[00:49:04] I ate, drank, dream, slept, dreamed bull riding. I was in love with the sport.

[00:49:09] And it was during, I was working on my pro permit when I cracked my hip at a show and I gave myself three months to heal. And it was during that time, one of my best friends got a scuba diving certification and he was telling me about it.

[00:49:25] So I had three months off. So I took the time to get my scuba certification.

[00:49:30] Danielle: After I got scuba certified, I went, I just wanna, I just wanna put a brief pause. So your time off was actually you healing a fractured hip. You weren't. Oh, okay. So in your off time with a fractured hip, you got your scuba certification?

[00:49:45] Eli: Yes, exactly. Okay. Okay. Cool. Okay, go on, go on.

[00:49:51] So it was on that, on that bowl that I, when I cracked my hip, I got, I got scuba certified. I went to Kmel, I saw a shark. I came back from that adventure. I was, I went to my next rodeo and I was behind the chutes. And I fell off my bowl and all I had, I usually would throw a fit. When I would buck off, I would just, so angry at myself.

[00:50:15] But off, after that ride, I was behind the chutes and I had Caribbean music, blue water, white sand sharks floating through my mind. I was like, I'm done. I'm going shark diving. And, so not becoming a professional bull rider was the best thing that never happened to me.

[00:50:34] Danielle: Oh, that is so, that is good.

[00:50:39] And I feel like those, those moments, that perspective is unfortunately earned in hindsight. It's so hard to trust in those moments when you're down with a fractured hip or saying goodbye to an old dream, feeling like you're starting over. That is hard. I mean, in your magazine was that too? But you can even see now in the full expression of what your business is, how learning to tell stories, learning to create a narrative, learning to take images and then not just take images that are clear and focus, but that are also telling a visual story.

[00:51:18] And you've passed that on to your daughter who, she's a wildlife photographer in the making. I mean she is and is continuing to be, but it's like all of those steps. But it's, all of those things led to the next thing, but I think it only could have, because you followed the curiosity as opposed to maybe drowning in what you were losing.

[00:51:41] You allowed yourself to become curious about where you wanted to go. And I think that's a really remarkable quality. That's a good, that's a great emotionally resilient quality.

[00:51:52] Eli: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, thanks. I just, uh, yeah. It was, it was, that was a huge chunk of my life that I just I gave up, but it felt right.

[00:52:02] It felt right. And it was just like, that's why I think maybe that. Let's see if he's still around in a year. Doing that came from just because I was like, okay, he is gonna be a bull rider now. He is gonna be a shark diver.

[00:52:15] Danielle: Yes. my background was on ballroom dance. I taught, before that I did commercial acting.

[00:52:20] my plan was to move to la I had a very similar, about face, very big pivot and started teaching ballroom dance. Did that for about seven years. And I just felt that pressure where I'm about to grow outta my shell. I knew it was not this, but I wasn't crystal clear on what that was.

[00:52:38] I just knew not this. And so little step by little step, I found my way in grad school and I was, about 11 years older than every other person in that particular class when I decided to switch careers and do what I'm doing now. But yeah, I always appreciate when people can share those moments like that.

[00:52:58] 'cause I think what I'm doing is trying to build up a bank of stories that would've comforted those versions of me that was just so terrified about to do something new. .

[00:53:08] This was so exciting. Thank you for being here. I'm excited for everybody to, check out your account, look at all your images, sign up for a trip, just take the leap, put a deposit down on an adventure.

[00:53:22] Just scroll through. Pick an animal that terrifies you and just say yes to that one. I can't wait for everybody to hear this. Awesome. Thank you so much.

[00:53:30] Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did recording it, because this in so many ways was a dream come true if you couldn't tell by the episode itself. I wanna leave you with , a quote that I pulled from Eli that was said in the episode, but really is the heart of what this episode is, as well as what I hope to bring to every episode.

[00:53:55] When people experience the wild, they understand and when they understand they care If you replace the wild with the self. When people experience the self, they understand and when they understand they care. The more I understand my own emotional landscape, the more equipped and empowered I feel to navigate it.

[00:54:22] The more empathetic, the more compassionate, the more connected I feel with the people in my life. The people who I believe have wronged me with my past. I feel more hopeful for my future. That connection to the self, our essential self or nature, the natural world around us is I think what makes us unique in the experience we get to have on this planet.

[00:54:47] So if you haven't already decided you're gonna book your adventure, this might be your call. Whether that adventure is outside your window looking at a sunset,

[00:54:58] but I want that for you. I want that for me, and I think we all deserve to have that kind of magic. We can make it if we want it. Thank you for tuning in this week. I look forward to catching you next time, and as always, I hope you continue to have a wonderful day.

[00:55:11]

 

In this solo episode of 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs,' Danielle Ireland dives into key lessons from her recent therapy sessions, emphasizing the importance of relationships. She explores how the drive to 'win' an argument often results in everyone losing, the power of genuine apologies over hollow ones, and the significance of understanding rather than feigned confusion. Danielle also shares personal insights and practical steps to navigate relationship conflicts with compassion and kindness, while promoting her journaling tool, 'Treasured,' aimed at deepening personal growth and self-awareness.

 

00:00 Introduction and Purpose of the Solo Cast

01:47 Lessons from Therapy Sessions: Relationship Edition

03:03 Winning or Losing in Arguments

08:30 The Power of Pausing and Reflecting

14:23 Hollow Apologies and True Acknowledgment

18:02 Understanding and the Desire to Change

23:07 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

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DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.

 

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Transcript

Winning Isn't Everything: Lessons from Therapy Sessions

[00:00:00] Hello. Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are listening to Don't Cut Your Own Bangs Today. I am coming at you with a solo cast. These are so fun for me for many reasons. it's like a living, breathing journal where I can process things that are happening in my life or things that I've learned with clients and therapy sessions or just new aha things or whatever's really exciting for me.

[00:00:28] I get an opportunity to put those in a place. I have been having some really juicy, juicy therapy sessions with clients over the last couple weeks, and what I've started to do, There are moments when I'm in a session with a client and I'm taking notes or I'm listening to something they're processing or something will fly outta my mouth, just improvised in the moment and I will think to myself, damn.

[00:00:52] That was a tasty dish that was really interesting or that was super poignant, or I get like full body chills and I don't really know exactly what to do with the information, but I wanna put it somewhere. And so what has ended up happening over the years is I'll scribble something on a post-it note or I'll scratch something at the top of the client note to try to revisit later.

[00:01:15] Sometimes in previous lives I've written them into blog forms or just brought them up with my husband over dinner thinking this. And actually little sneak peek behind the curtain. That is one of the ways, one of the first ways that the title for wrestling a walrus came to me.

[00:01:34] It happened in a therapy session. I'm pretty sure I used it just as a way to iterate whatever the client was processing or experiencing in the moment. I wrote it down and it just stuck with me. And there's lots of moments like that. And so what we're gonna talk about today in this solo cast is lessons from sessions, but the ones that are really focused in on relationships.

[00:01:58] So this is the lessons from Sessions, relationship edition, solocast, and. The only thing that's ever shared, in this podcast space is the.

[00:02:12] Lessons that are gleaned, the takeaways that we can all find value from in the human experience, not personal anecdotes, addresses, names, identifiable characteristics, nothing like that. The point is not to out anybody at all. One that would be terribly unethical and I would lose my license for it.

[00:02:32] But also just on a human level that feels ick. That feels really icky. I think that anybody who's curious about therapy or anyone who is in therapy, but wondered what it would be like in someone else's session. There is this innate curiosity of, is anyone else dealing with this too?

[00:02:48] Has anyone else ever thought this also, or what do you do when you face this? That is, I think, a healthy, normal, reasonable curiosity I love that there's a place to share that. So yeah, we're gonna talk about relationships. So winning or losing in the context of relationships, particularly in an argument, if the goal is to win or if, if the goal is to not lose.

[00:03:15] Depends on what side you're on. Are you righteous or are you just digging your heels in and being stubborn? if you are fighting to win or doggedly. Preventing the feeling of loss. Somebody always loses, win or lose. Somebody always loses in that type of dynamic.

[00:03:33] So what happens when we do a fake apology? A hollow apology. And the last is the phrase I hear a lot. I just don't understand. I just don't understand. So we're gonna talk about each of these, how they play out in relationships, what you might be able to find value from within them, where you may be able to see yourself in them.

[00:03:55] And I'll also share where I see myself in these too. though I sit in a therapist chair when I'm actually working with clients. I do my own work. I'm human too, and we're figuring this out together. So let's start with. When it's about winning or losing, you always lose. I think what gets lost in most heated exchanges, if we even peel back before the disagreement itself, there is a momentum.

[00:04:26] That leads to disagreements, whether a repeated pattern, a repeated behavior or a fight that we keep having over and over and over again. It's never just isolated in that moment in time, there is a momentum that leads to it.

[00:04:43] The issue in the kitchen or the fight in the bedroom, or the feverishly upset text exchange, Thing that we are fighting for is to be heard or to feel validated or for the other person to give us something. Usually something in the context of, you are right, I was wrong.

[00:05:03] I see it your way. I will change and I will never do that thing that has led us to this moment that makes you uncomfortable ever, ever again. We're looking for some kind of either validation or a guarantee, and some of that makes sense and some of that is. Just not. and it's hard to know in that moment in time when we are flooded with feelings we're escalating and two people have dug their heels in.

[00:05:30] It's sometimes hard to see the woods through the trees, but. What I know to be absolutely true, having worked with couples who are actively fighting in front of me, which is not fun. It's probably my least favorite experience working as a therapist. it really activates my nervous system, but also in my own fights and my own disagreements with my husband.

[00:05:52] For example, when I am fighting to prove myself right at his expense, the expense of his experience or his point of view. I will lose because I'm either going to say something hurtful to win or I'm not listening, so I'm not receiving any of the information he's sharing. And also, once I'm that flooded and fighting to get my point of view across, I'm no longer in the environment, and I'm no longer sitting in front of my husband.

[00:06:21] I'm sitting across an enemy and I'm a battle. And once that happens, once that mode is activated. That's when our worst qualities, our most destructive behaviors, can rise to the surface, and that erodes trust. it creates the opposite of really looking for, we're looking to be heard, one of the things that can be helpful is to even just catch that you're in it. am I trying to win or am I trying to understand something new? Am I trying to win or am I seeking to be heard? Am I trying to win? Meaning I need to be right.

[00:07:04] And because in order for me to be right, they have to be wrong. Now, there are of course times where there maybe is a clear cut right and wrong, but what I'm speaking about in this context is not physical altercations or the extremes that are a little more clearly discerned. It's those. Muddy, messy, icky moments with someone that you actually care about or somebody who has a relationship that's important to you.

[00:07:33] 'cause maybe it's not always a spouse or a romantic partner. it could be a friend or could be a family member. It could even be a coworker, but they're not a villain. They're not evil. But that is also sometimes a trick that our mind will play on us when we are fighting so hard to win, is we'll make the other person an enemy and we'll convince ourselves a story about them

[00:07:53] Whatever our mode of operating makes sense to us, but what you can do is if you catch yourself in that place, you're like, oh, the warrior, the Warrior's armors on, and I am trying to win. This is, by the way, the hardest thing for me to do. Anytime because whenever there is unease, unrest, discomfort in a relationship, my need to fix or my need to get to a resolution quickly is so strong.

[00:08:26] One of the best things you can do is pause the conversation, pause and walk away for a little bit. if like me, you have that hypervigilance that that need for resolution, that need to care take. Or if you are a justice seeking person, you're like, I will fight the good fight.

[00:08:46] This is going to be really freaking hard. but I absolutely know. Based on the science, based on what is happening in our brains, what's happening in our nervous system, when we are engaged in an interaction like that, win or lose, you're gonna lose. So the best thing you can do when you catch it, even if it's mid-sentence, is to, and I'll actually do this, I'll do something, I'll do a gesture with my hands.

[00:09:13] Like I'll throw up my hands like this, like, woo, I need, I need to stop. Or I'll do a timeout, hand signal. But I'll take a breath. I'll pump the brakes. Literally and metaphorically, I'll pump the brakes on the conversation and I need to pause and take a beat. There's actually a really common thread that I've, clients have told me about and I've actually experienced in my own life.

[00:09:38] many times. I'll get off of a heated phone call and I'll hang up, and then a few minutes will go by. something will soften or a new thought will come to me, or I'll have a moment of clarity, or I'll start to feel contrite and maybe a little guilty at something at how I said something or what I said, and I'll actually have a better opportunity to reconnect through sending a text.

[00:10:05] Now, I'm not a fan of text fighting or avoiding actual connection through text, but there is this phenomenon of. I have to stop the chain of events. That's un that's gaining momentum that I have. I'm losing control and I'm fighting hard to win. And I press pause and I stop and I breathe and I reflect

[00:10:28] And then I'm seeing things in a different way. And then the act of texting. Is not to avoid the deeper connection, but I think there is something to, similar to why I love journaling. I'm thinking about what I'm writing and I'm thinking about what I'm sending. And generally that is either an apology or a more well-formed thought or a clarifying statement or a question that helps reframe.

[00:10:56] There is something about step out of the game. If you catch yourself in this like pickleball match of like point, counterpoint, point, counterpoint, point, counterpoint, you're just trying so hard to win.

[00:11:08] Step outta the game. So the pause is not abandoning the other person or abandoning the topic altogether, or it's not avoiding it. But I need to get out of this. The rules and the context of this game win or lose. I'm gonna step out. I'm gonna breathe and, you know, you're in a better place to reapproach the conversation when I come back online.

[00:11:31] That's the language I use. it's hard to articulate into words 'cause it's a full body experience, The more I am caught in winning or losing or making somebody wrong, my focus becomes really narrow and I only see the examples. I only see the points that prove my perspective. Right? When I step out of the game and I breathe,

[00:11:57] I come back to the present moment. from that perspective, I'm able to actually see the context of a broader frame of reference, and that opens up the conversation to better possibilities that are less corrosive and less draining.

[00:12:15] So the takeaway from there, if you are fighting to win or lose, you will always lose. There is a better way to do it and my recommendation is to pause, step outta the game, breathe, reframe, and only reenter back into that interaction. When you feel yourself come back online. if you are in a relationship with a partner where you were the one choosing to step away and they.

[00:12:40] Have an anxious attachment style or they are maybe more like me in this example where they're like, but they need, they need, they need to resolve.

[00:12:47] So letting them know that I'm not walking away from you and I'm not avoiding us coming to. A resolution together, but now is not the time for me and I can't be my best me and do this. So depending on who you are and where you fall in each dynamic, it can be helpful to sometimes tend to that. If you have a partner that is a little bit more anxious attachedIf you've ever wanted to start a journaling practice but didn't know where to start, or if you've been journaling off and on your whole life, but you're like, I wanna take this work deeper, I've got you covered. I've written a journal called Treasured, a Journal for unearthing you. It's broken down into seven key areas of your life, filled with stories, sentence stems, prompts, questions, and exercises.

[00:13:28] All rooted in the work that I do with actual clients in my therapy sessions. I have given these examples to clients in sessions as homework, and they come back with insights that allow us to do such incredible work. This is something you can do in the privacy of your own home, whether you're in therapy or not.

[00:13:47] It has context, it has guides. And hopefully some safety bumpers to help digging a little deeper feel possible, accessible and safe. You don't have to do this alone. And there's also a guided treasured meditation series that accompanies each section in the journal to help ease you into the processing state.

[00:14:06] So my hope is to help guide you into feeling more secure with the most important relationship in your life, the one between you and you. Hop on over to the show notes and grab your copy today. And now back to the episode.

[00:14:19] When I am, sorry. Falls flat. Ooh, there is nothing. Well, okay, maybe there are other things. It really bothers me when there is a hollow, like a chocolate Easter bunny empty on the inside. I'm sorry. There are so many ways that repair is done wrong, and I think a lot of what though, these fake or hollow apologies feel rooted in.

[00:14:49] It's an apology in sheep's clothing. we want a guarantee. If I just knew the right words, if I just knew the script, if I just said the right thing, then I could hijack all of the awkward, uncomfortable, vulnerable conversations that I don't wanna have. I don't actually have to feel any of the sticky, icky, uncomfortable feelings that.

[00:15:10] Are involved in making amends, taking responsibility, because once I know something, I can't unknow it. And if I know something and I can't unknow it, then I might need to change. And change is uncomfortable and change is hard. if I just repeat the script, then I can just skip all that crap and get right to the fun part, which is, you know, avoiding discomfort altogether.

[00:15:33] I'm sorry, but, or there's a good rule of thumb that whatever comes after, but is what you really mean. So if you find yourself either hearing or saying, I'm sorry, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm gonna tell you the, I'm sorry you just said was total bullshit and what you actually think and feel and what you mean is what comes after.

[00:15:56] But there are so many ways that we say the words, but we don't mean the words. And so sometimes what I recommend to couples is to just swipe it from your vocabulary altogether. Because a lot of the time what we're looking for in place of an apology of atonement is acknowledgement. I see the impact my behavior had on you.

[00:16:24] I see the effect that the way that I said what I just said, I can hear it now through your ears because you just shared. Your history, that experience you had when you were young, or you told me about the type of day you just had. I can now hear how that joke I thought was a joke or that comment that kind of came out sideways, or the fact that I'm frustrated and impatient I can now hear in a new way.

[00:16:52] I have a new frame of reference. I have a new context because of what you shared, and I really appreciate you telling me that's not an apology, Fuck is that more powerful than so many times where we say, oh, I'm sorry, because I am sorry. Just, I'm sorry. I thought I was just making a joke.

[00:17:11] Be discerning about your apologies. And also I think a really important question to ask that I will share with clients all the time.

[00:17:24] Does the situation really call for an apology or is what the other person, or what you asking for is. Clarity and confirmation that your feelings matter. That your experience is real. And most of the time that is what we really are looking for. And that is enough Hollow chocolate bunny Apologies. Can Well, they can, they can get out 'cause I'm over 'em.

[00:17:54] and I just don't understand. Oh. I just don't understand the faux helplessness, the performed confusion that a lot of us do. This one I find fun because when we are confused. Then we can't really make a choice.

[00:18:19] And if we can't really make a choice because we don't really understand something, then guess what else we don't have to do. We don't have to change. And so a lot of times I will be working with a client who is either in a relationship with someone who is conveniently confused or they themselves. Are maybe not ready to know what they're on the cusp of knowing, or they're not ready to acknowledge what they already know.

[00:18:46] There's all these different stages of readiness when it comes to making change, because change is hard and it's scary and it's uncomfortable, but this helpless confusion, I just don't understand. This is my favorite follow up question to that, and I empower you to use it. Just be ready for it though, because you can also use it on yourself.

[00:19:10] I just don't understand. Do you want to, do you want to? Oof. I love that so much. Do you wanna understand, so just imagine you're having a conversation with you don't understand. Would you like to, because I'm happy to explain why it matters to me, because this is , the beauty and the really challenging part about emotional awareness . once we become aware. We can't unsee. If I don't know, then I'm gonna just keep doing what I've always done. But if I know I'm now presented with a choice that maybe I didn't have before, but now I have a choice and my choice is to either do the same thing pretending I don't know, or I'm gonna do the same thing, knowing full well and still choosing to do the same thing.

[00:20:12] But it's a choice. It's not this helpless foe. I'm just lost and confused. I can't possibly be held accountable. Oh, record scratch. You do know now, and it's a real clarifying moment for an individual or for a relationship or for a job. Once I know what I know, I can't unknow it.

[00:20:36] Now I'm being called to do something with this knowing, and sometimes that's a scary leap. The example that's actually coming to mind as I'm sharing this is I knew but wasn't ready to know for six months that I was ready to go out on my own and leave the practice. That helped me develop as a therapist and launch out on my own.

[00:20:59] I knew for about six months that. I could afford it, that I was capable, that I had all of the resources I needed to make this happen. But I was scared to take the leap because change is hard. The unknown is uncertain and scary, and it's a new environment and new and scary, and it is just all, all the reasons why we may be avoid doing anything that's new.

[00:21:24] But I knew and needed to be confused and then reminded and confused, and reminded and confused and reminded until I couldn't ignore what I knew anymore. And then I acted on it. And I think sometimes too , to wash this all with a, a big dose of compassion. I also think that a lot of times that that.

[00:21:47] Knowing, not being ready to know, knowing not being ready to know is its own form of preparation. Like maybe what we see on the outside is procrastination is its own form of preparing. Getting ready to be ready, to be ready to change,

[00:22:04] wherever you see yourself or your relationship or someone in your life in this process, I hope. That this has been clarifying. I hope you found some value in it or maybe sparked a fun conversation that we can continue to have. I welcome questions. I want your questions and I would love to be able to answer them for you here.

[00:22:23] You can always email me at [email protected]. I am the only person who has access to that email, so I'll be the person that receives it. So hit me up with a follow up question. If you want me to expand on a topic or if you have a new one that you're curious about, let me know.

[00:22:38] The thing I wanna leave, whether it's about winning or losing, or whether it's about when Hollow chocolate bunny bullshit apologies or being fake confused about something. If there was a way that we could simplify, well, okay, what do you actually do with this?

[00:22:55] The first is breathe. The first will always be breathing. Because the breath is what allows all of the important problem solving parts of our brain that kick offline when we're absolutely flooded with emotion or in terror or thrown back to our 8-year-old emotional selves. Breath brings us back. So breathe.

[00:23:19] I love doing this next step. I will think of myself or imagine myself as somewhere between like five and eight years old, but I think of little Danielle.

[00:23:29] And then whenever I'm in conflict or mentally struggling with or taking issue with anyone, truly any other person, I will then imagine them as little them. So there's little Danielle and there's little them, and it softens me because one, the reality is we go back to an emotional age wherever, whenever we are flooded with emotion, the experience is exceeding our capacity to meet the moment.

[00:24:01] And this is not a judgment, it's just a truth that when we get overwhelmed or flooded or have an adult tantrum or lose our temper emotions are seeping out our eyes, right? Whatever the expression is, the emotion of the moment is exceeding our capacity to meet it. Breath helps us kick back online and then remembering, oh, this is little me not knowing how to meet this moment.

[00:24:25] And she's doing the best she can do. And then there's also a little version of this other person. Who is likely having the exact same experience in their own way, and it doesn't excuse behavior and it doesn't excuse mine, especially if I step outside the bounds of what's respectful. But to meet the moment with kindness and truth, doing that with compassion, with respect to what's likely happening inside me and likely happening inside the other, just really adds a nice, soft, cozy touch to the whole context.

[00:25:00] Don't worry about a goddamn script. I've spent way too much time with clients, particularly in my early years, trying to craft the right thing to say. And I gotta say that those scripts will fail you when you're actually in the moment. Sentence stems can help. And maybe if you need a point of reference to launch into a well-worded email or text, but when you're speaking from the heart, it's gonna be the right thing.

[00:25:25] But you won't be able to access that if you're not breathing. Disarm yourself, disarm the other. You're not enemies. You're not fighting. No one is trying to win or lose. And then say what you really feel and mean what you're saying. you'll know that it's the truth when it's also delivered with kindness.

[00:25:48] Because what I absolutely believe to be true. A belief being just something you think a lot, and I think this a lot, that the truth can always be delivered with kindness. It doesn't mean it's gonna be comfy, cozy, it doesn't mean it's gonna be easy, and it doesn't mean the other person's going to like it, but it can absolutely is kind.

[00:26:07] The truth is kind. So breathe, trust yourself, disarm yourself in the other. And try to do it with as much kindness as you can access.

[00:26:20] I wanna hear from you. I wanna know what you think. I want to answer your questions, and I want to grow and get better with you. So before you leave, make sure to check out the show notes, all of the important links for my children's book, wrestling, a Walrus, my journal, treasure, a Journal for unearthing you, my website, all the fun ways you can connect with me.

[00:26:40] They are there for you in the show notes. Make sure to check those out and write, review, subscribe to the podcast. Those three things are like the 1, 2, 3 power punch that help this podcast meet other people who can get value from it. The best things in life are shared, so please share and I hope you continue to have a wonderful day.

[00:26:59]

Welcome back to 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs!' 

 

In this lively and heartfelt episode, Danielle Ireland chats with Ashlyn Thompson from the Parent Empowerment Network. Ashlyn shares her journey from growing her nonprofit organization to the emotional rollercoaster of her daughter's complex medical journey. 

 

Get ready to explore how pain can be an unexpected teacher, the magic of community support, and why tapping into creativity can be your secret weapon against anxiety. Filled with laughs, valuable insights, and touching moments, this episode is a treasure trove of wisdom and joy. Tune in and enjoy the ride!

 

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview

00:20 Ashlyn Thompson's Journey and Nonprofit Growth

01:10 The Importance of Community and Support

01:37 Embracing Big Feelings and Finding Joy

02:52 Welcoming Ashlyn Back and Discussing Growth

05:44 Navigating Pain and Empowerment

09:51 The Power of Perspective and Decision Making

14:27 Balancing Life and Nonprofit Work

21:21 The Role of Pain as a Teacher

30:48 Finding Comfort in Movement and Nature

33:09 Returning to Basics

33:35 Reflecting on Past Decisions

35:20 The Role of Pain and Fear

38:20 Parent Empowerment Network

44:25 Creativity as a Lifeline

49:21 Embracing Emotions

53:07 Don't Cut Your Own Bangs Moment

01:01:20 Conclusion and Resources

 

Ashlyn Thompson interview links

Ashlyn Thompson, a passionate advocate and storyteller, is co-founder of the Parent Empowerment Network, a nonprofit providing emotional and mental health support to parents navigating pediatric medical complexities. She also co-hosts theEmpowered by Hope podcast, which equips parents with practical tools, resources, and a strong sense of community—delivered with a heavy dose of humor and hope to empower them as their child’s best advocate.

Ashlyn’s fire for advocacy was ignited by her daughter Emery, who was born with bladder exstrophy. After Emery nearly died following a major surgery at just seven weeks old, Ashlyn became a fierce voice for patient safety. Unwilling to accept the limitations of domestic medical care, she discovered a surgical option in the U.K. that wasn’t available in the U.S. at the time. In early 2023, Emery became the first American to undergo this procedure—and thanks to Ashlyn’s relentless advocacy, that surgery is now available in America.

When she’s not advocating or recording podcasts, Ashlyn moonlights as a budding driveway chalk artist, chaos coordinator for her spirited family, and an avid nature lover. Chocolate is her daily vitamin, ADHD is her superpower, spiders and small talk are her sworn enemies, and she firmly believes laughter and boldness are two of a parent’s greatest tools.

 

Parent Empowerment Network: 

The Parent Empowerment Network exists to support, encourage, and educate parents of children with medical complexities—empowering them with community, knowledge, and confidence to be their child’s fiercest advocate.

www.ParentEmpowermentNetwork.org

Empowered by Hope podcast on all major podcast streaming platforms: https://parentempowermentnetwork.org/podcast/

 

Social Media: 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/people/Parent-Empowerment-Network/100083218456295/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/parentempowermentnetwork/

 

She is Charlotte book by co-founder, Emily Whiting:https://parentempowermentnetwork.org/she-is-charlotte-book/

DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.

 

Website: https://danielleireland.com/

 

The Treasured Journal: https://danielleireland.com/journal

 

Substack: https://danielleireland.substack.com/

 

Blog: https://danielleireland.com/blog/

 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danielleireland_lcsw

 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/danielleireland.LCSW

 

Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@danielleireland8218/featured

“Don’t Cut Your Own Bangs” is about creating a community around, and familiarity with, the messy middle—that uncertain and often chaotic and uncomfortable time in the middle of a process or journey. The messy middle is replete with ambiguity and challenges, but it’s also where the hard and rewarding work happens.

 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Danielle: Hello. Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are watching or listening to Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I am so excited to be back in the interview seat. We've done some solo cast. It's been a blast. But Ashlyn Thompson is here with me today, and we just wrapped an incredible conversation. Ashlyn came on as a guest to talk about her work with Charlotte's Hope Foundation a couple of years ago.

[00:00:26] She was about ready to embark right in the interview we were, she was. Days away from embarking on a trip to the UK for her daughter having a surgery with the only surgeon in the world who performed the specific type of surgery that her daughter needed. Her daughter's made a full recovery. It's a beautiful story we're gonna get into in this episode, but what I'm truly, if you could imagine even beyond that beautiful story, what I'm so excited to introduce to you and to that I was so grateful to witness and learn from.

[00:00:53] Is that Ashlyn has grown her nonprofit organization, not no money in organization, but yes, a nonprofit organization that at the time, two years ago when we last checked in with her, was called Charlotte's Hope Foundation. It has grown. It's expanded, and it's evolved, and it's now the Parent Empowerment Network.

[00:01:10] She and her co-founder also have a podcast for that same work, and what I love about the work that they do. They create community connection space and resources for parents and families raising children or any provider helping a child navigate medical complexities. And that sounds like such a hard and heavy and challenging topic.

[00:01:33] And it is. But what Ashlyn embodies is. The work that I really wanted to bring to this season and this new phase of don't cut your own bangs, which I want big feelings to feel less scary. I want approaching them to feel possible. And then with that in mind, wherever possible, as much as possible, finding lightness, levity, and joy.

[00:01:54] However we can do it. And I'm telling you, in this episode we did that. We accomplished that. We talk about important things, we talk about heavy things, and Ashland is vulnerable in a way that is inviting. But also something we can all learn from. And through the specificity of her life experience and what she's learned, there are universal nuggets that we can all find value in.

[00:02:17] I know I did, and this was such a beautiful place to share, and we laughed. We had joy, we smiled . I hope that this topic invites you and encourages you to lean in and tune in because there are so many great nuggets of this. Thank you for being here, and I can't wait for you to sit back, relax, and enjoy.

[00:02:38] Ashlyn Thompson

[00:02:39] Hi. Yes, I know. Big jumps for both of us. I know. I feel like we're, it does feel like a lifetime ago. It I mean, in many ways it is. It's like we're, I mean, I'm still, me and all the key players are still playing. Right. But it does feel like a different life in a way. And I, with that in mind, I just wanna officially welcome you back.

[00:02:55] Yes. Welcome. Ashlyn Thompson. Oh, thank. Don't cut your own bangs. I am so excited that you're here for many reasons, but the thing I'm most excited about is I think that. Building something or starting something creates a certain amount of effort and energy. Sustaining something, growing with it, breathing new life into it, that's a different part of a different element of a creative process.

[00:03:17] And that's something I think specifically I'm really excited to talk to you about because you're parent Empowerment Network, which has it, it exists to support, encourage and educate parents and caregivers of children with medical complexities. And that was, it already was in existence when we, right, when we recorded the first time.

[00:03:34] But it has grown. Grown. I went to a gala, people, she's throwing a gala fundraiser for her for her network. And so, I mean, I wanna hear about all the twists and all the developments of that, but more specifically the context I wanna provide for us and for this conversation. The thing that I'm really excited about, , and why I feel really passionate about bringing this to video.

[00:03:57] Is that I want to help make big feelings feel less scary. Yeah. And I want to make, approaching them feel possible. And then with that in mind as much and as often as possible, laugh as much as possible. Amen. And so, right? So like, you are swimming in the trenches with people and even in your own life with people who are holding and making space for heavy things.

[00:04:23] Yes. And yet there is a bright smile on your face. There's a twinkle in your eye. You laugh and you smile. And I wanna, and I don't know how to articulate what that is, but I want to, I wanna, that's something I wanna make space for in this conversation too. So it's important and it's big and it's emotional for sure, but also like, let's allow levity too.

[00:04:42] Absolutely. I am so excited to be continuing our conversation, and I'm also really happy to know that. The person who's sitting here with you today is very much a different person from two years ago. And I feel like I have gone through multiple versions of myself just in the past two years. And that's one of the things that I truly celebrate about, not just the journey of parent empowerment network, but I think just growing and evolving as a human spirit, experiencing this life is recognizing that I say this phrase to only certain people, but I act, I feel compelled to share it now.

[00:05:26] I feel like I have died a thousand times. And greeted so many versions of myself. But every time I rise into that extroversion and realize who I am, I like that person more and more. And. I feel like one of my greatest accomplishments just this past year has been truly settling into a, knowing a deep belief that life is meant to grow through, not go through.

[00:05:58] And that change, that pivot of how I see the next big thing that comes up has been such a grounding force for me and has really helped me feel like I'm actually sitting in the driver's seat of my car. I don't know what I'm going to pass as I'm on this highway. In life. And sometimes life yanks me off on an exit I didn't plan.

[00:06:23] And those exit ramps are typically the next lesson. But I'm grateful to be at a point where I can now see the next really hard thing emerging and not wanna hit reverse. Wow. Wow. Not that I like it all the time. No, God. But I can appreciate that this isn't out to crush me. This isn't here to take me down like I used to feel.

[00:06:53] , Wow. There's a lot to unpack there for. Thank you so much for sharing that, but also not going in reverse. I wanna make a mental note, not going in reverse. The next version of me, I like better, and this is not here to crush me. Right. The, there's something, I got chills. I got full body chills when you, the la with the last thing that you said, because when I'm working with clients, there is this element and this is something.

[00:07:18] I promise I'll come back to that original point there. There's an element of the work that I do where, and I'm sure you get this in your own way too, with like hearing stories from families who are holding really hard and heavy things. I think when I meet people for the first time, a common response is, wow, I don't know how you do what you do, or I don't know how you listen to that all day.

[00:07:36] Or Oh man, and I think, yes, sure. There, there are certainly days and clients or moments where those stories are making space for people's big, heavy, painful experiences. Right. Is can be a lot at times. Far less anymore. But I think more than anything the va like, I feel so lucky to have the experience a hundred maybe even thousands of times over hurt people's pain.

[00:08:03] And I know what pain sounds like. Yes. And there are different types and one thing that I absolutely believe to be true is that our pain is not personal. Our story is personal, right? But pain is not personal. And the events of our life, even things that happen to us, it's, there's it's almost shifting out of a, and I hope I can say this within the context that, that is heard with love.

[00:08:27] But shifting out of a victim mentality right into it. Because being victimized or being stricken with grief or holding something hard like that is absolutely real. And also knowing that this is happening to me, but this is not gosh, what are the words I'm trying to find. It, what I'm hearing is you recognize how hard this is.

[00:08:51] Whatever that insert blank. I recognize how hard this is, and I'm not going to make this pain so precious that I don't also see it as temporary. Yes, exactly. But there's something, so I think there's something really powerful and there's so much nuance to that because I certainly don't want to, people can be victimized, but the victim mentality is one of, in my professional experience it's one of the more challenging headspace to, for someone to walk out of.

[00:09:21] Agree. It's really hard. Exactly. It shrinks your world. So, so much. That's well said. And we experience that very often. We really fo I mean we say all the time, you know, we are non diagnosis specific, non prognosis specific with the families that we work with, and we focus on the parents or the parent role, which could be performed by a sibling, a grandparent, a friend, an adopt, a lot of different people, but.

[00:09:51] What we really found early in our journey and what helped us evolve into parent empowerment network was that recognition that, like you pointed out, pain is not it's not customized to your experience. The feeling, the emotional and physical experience relationship with pain is common through all of us, and it actually is a way that we can connect with each other when we recognize that.

[00:10:18] When we stop comparing one another's pains. Now, don't get me wrong, if your kid got a bump on the head versus your kid needs a, you know, brain surgery. Right. Those are different. Yes. Very different. Yes. But most of the time we're not dealing with that. And what we have found is that when somebody is in that victim mentality, which is understandable, I think that's a, very important aspect to acknowledge when you're feeling like a victim, why is this happening to me? Or why is this happening to my child? Because I'll be the first to say, it's never okay when your child is hurting or sick or in harm's way or worse. I will never be okay with it. But when we say stuck in a victim mentality, our ability to problem solve goes from about here to here.

[00:11:08] Yeah. And then your child is really the one who suffers. And I hate, it's a hard truth. But we have to face that truth because when we can help a parent start to find glimmers of hope, start to see that there's a way to build on quality of life rather than cure. Then you start to see this new version emerge where they are truly, you know, empowered advocates for their child.

[00:11:45] There's something that I heard in what you said too, that a lot of times when I'm working with clients who are maybe knee deep in anxiety or depression, for example. I think why can be a powerful question, but I think a misplaced why is a really exactly damaging question. Like, why me? Why them?

[00:12:02] Why this, why now? Because those are questions you can't answer that only lead to a defeating answer. Exactly. And usually another question or shame, but what I'm hearing a lot in when you. When you can kind of broaden your focus and sort of release that constriction from why you then can open yourself up to a different type of question.

[00:12:23] How can I, exactly. How can I get through today? How can I get through this moment? What is needed most of me now? What do I need now? Right. And those types of the what and the how. Who do I need to show up for? Is it me? Right. Is it them? Who do I need to ask for help? Who has information that I need?

[00:12:43] Those types of questions don't eliminate the pain, but it broadens the scope Yes. Of, of your field of vision. And I know that though, like, 'cause you are here in many ways. Oh, I hope it's okay to use this term. But I hope that you're here as an expert and you're also the executive Hope director of of the power impairment network.

[00:13:05] And I think a lot of times. What we would imagine as the worst possible case scenario. Like the worst thing we could imagine would be something happening to our kids. This has been your lived experience. This has been your business partner's lived experience. And for, even though you have a podcast as well, where you really create a space and content and a community that helps people with that very specific set of circumstances, that Right.

[00:13:33] I would imagine it's like. The best and worst club to be a part of. So we always say, we're so sorry you're in this club. Yes. But we're so glad you found us. Yes. Like it's the yes, we're really sorry, but at the same time, like, welcome home, welcome. And so I think a lot of the, a lot of the people who tune in to don't cut your own bang, I don't know how many would have this specific life experience.

[00:13:57] Right. And if you do, oh my gosh, what a gorgeous resource you have in Ashlyn. Oh, thank you. And the Parent empowerment network and their podcast. But I do think that even in something like this, in within the specificity of everything you're saying, there is such a broad truth that I think we can all access and find value in.

[00:14:16] And, yeah. So just thank you for all of that. And I want to, okay. I wanna shift a little bit to the growth of the parent Empowerment network. Right. Because, so when I originally started this podcast, what I was, what I really motivated me, one was I was terrified of becoming a therapist and having worked as a creative, and I just wanted to surround myself with other people who, who were building things, right? So that I could sort of sneak in my own needy questions. Like, how did you do it? How did you figure it out? What happened when you were scared? Like, what happened when your computer crashed? Oh my gosh. And you went from newly building something to, you have really grown.

[00:14:53] Yes. You have really grown. And I wanna know having experienced the, you know, the gala that Right. That you that you threw that was so lovely. I wanna know . What led to the growth over the last two years? Because you're still momming, you're still life. Yeah. Your daughter is still being you.

[00:15:08] I mean, like your life is still life and Yes. Life is still lifeing. How, in the midst of your lifeing, how have you also continued to grow this? And I really wanna know like what fueled your fire. And just tell me more about that story please. Yes, absolutely. So at the beginning of this, you know, when we started talking, you were very talking about how I'm sitting here smiling and I mean, I am fully, I am genuinely full of joy in this moment.

[00:15:35] And I think I know actually that comes from being in something like we have with Parent Empowerment Network, which has been truly its own huge like business, right? We are called a nonprofit, but let me tell you, I mean, it is straight up business.

[00:15:57] Is what it is in a lot of ways, and. That's the worst possible name for a tax category. It totally is. Because it's so confusing. Nonprofit doesn't mean no money. Right. Exactly. It's so confusing. We do not exist for free. Is great an idea as that sounds. I want that to be the slogan for every nonprofit.

[00:16:16] I just, 'cause we don't exist for free. Right. You know the whole, you get what you pay for. It's, yeah. That's a whole other conversation. We're not gonna spend too much time there today. We should have a part two then. There we go. I'm okay with that. All right. So for that, what I think the biggest lesson that has.

[00:16:33] Emerged from this journey just since we were, you know, you and I were talking a couple years ago when we were actually still called Charlotte's Hope Foundation. Yes. Which was our initial name. Yes. Because we had an idea for something that was this big at the beginning. And the name Charlotte's Hope Foundation fit that in theory.

[00:16:52] But the thing I'm most proud of my, of Emily Whiting, who's my co-founder, fellow mom, fellow sister, fellow savior, at times the best thing we have done is allowed ourselves permission to grow and shrink as needed. And that's what we've done throughout this journey. It has not been a step process.

[00:17:15] There have been countless times where we have grown two or three steps, been bigger, you know, working with international teams of surgeons, pulling together collaborations that have never been done, and then. There have been times where we have pulled back and we haven't released an episode for six weeks.

[00:17:33] We have had maybe two or three social posts because our lives were on fire or just demanded all our attention, but it didn't mean we had to stop. I need to, oh my gosh. I don't know how many of you listening or watching can relate to that. I, there is a relationship I have with the expansion and contraction of output where if I'm not putting something out, producing something, making something that it really does a number on my sense of self worth. Right. And self esteem. And that is something that I'm still actively healing and repairing, because I definitely know the facts. I know. The really bumper stickery, self helpy sounding talk.

[00:18:26] And I believe it. It's not that I, I don't hear it and think like, yeah. Right. It's just that there's a more practiced version of me, right. That has just had more at bats operating in a certain way. And then life in many ways rewards you for that. In theory. In theory. And I don't mean the like the laurels, like you get the the kudos pat on the back accolades but there is a cost, right?

[00:18:47] There is a cost. And I think, in the I this past year I wrote a children's book called Wrestling a Walrus. And this the act of writing this book was something that I didn't realize that in the contraction, or even like in the I love the visual of the caterpillar becoming the butterfly.

[00:19:09] 'Cause there's a two week process where the caterpillar is literally, we talk about the messy middle in this podcast and think, thank you Brene Brown, wherever you are for creating language and context for us for this very conversation. 'cause so much of this is inspired by that, but that gooey, mushy middle where it's not a butterfly, it's literally goo and it's Exactly, and it, and, but in that place, there is magic happening there.

[00:19:33] Even if it, even though it looks like a pile of shit, right. Like, it's, there's magic happening there. I'll say the impetus or the inspiration, the. It was tough moments with my daughter, moments where I didn't feel like I was doing anything. Right. It like hitting the wrecking ball of, you know, being a parent of a toddler and a parent of an infant like that was, there's not enough grace in any space to help you go through that without serious, you know, support.

[00:20:02] There were, I had some victim mentality at that point in time, even, and all things can be true at once. But all of that was what I experienced before I had the idea to write the book. And had I not had that experience, I wouldn't have been able to do that. Exactly. I don't think it would've been the same.

[00:20:16] And

[00:20:16] , and I promise this whole podcast isn't an ad for the book, but like, I really believe in this damn book and I love it so much. And I love that you talk about that expansion and contraction for yourself. And that you doesn't, it doesn't mean you have to stop. 'cause I think a big reason why I maybe avoided picking up the torch again and doing this podcast like I left it for so long, or I abandoned it for so long, or can I still do it right?

[00:20:41] Like all of that stuff. And then yeah it. Yeah. Doubt doesn't mean you're done. No. And taking a pause doesn't mean you're stopping forever. But yeah. I mean, you can't just exhale forever. You can't just output like you eventually have to breathe in. Exactly. And that relationship is very necessary.

[00:21:00] And so, I mean, everything you're saying is exactly what I need. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. And it, that lesson doesn't come easily. Nope. But I think another element of that, you know, building off of what you were just talking about, pain and discomfort and naturally shying away from it.

[00:21:21] I challenge anybody in life to just take a moment to consider pain as a potential teacher, as a professor, rather than pain as an enemy, or pain as a destroyer. Right. If you ask yourself. Why does this feel painful? Because how many times do we all experience in our life something that really gets under our skin, but whether it's a spouse or it's a friend or a coworker and they seem totally unfazed by it,

[00:21:56] and that used to be something that bothered me. I was kinda like what's, am I ever sensitive? Or like, what is my thing? And I grew up always hearing, not necessarily even from my parents, but I feel like. Teacher schools and saved by the bell commercials about find what you love in life and you'll never work a day in your life.

[00:22:16] And that was great in theory, but I'm a very eclectic person. Yep. I love a lot. And all I was getting was a lot of burnout. That's also like saying like, love your kids and you'll never have a hard day with them in your life. You're like, no bs. No. I love my kids. But like, you know, oh my gosh, kids are the greatest, hardest thing of life.

[00:22:33] Right. Right. But I think the same is true. Like , I never stopped loving this. Right. But I don't always have control over the life around. Right. But it's a, I think allowing things to be a part of you, not all of you, is really important. Yeah. And I think it's so easy to define ourselves by that output.

[00:22:53] For me and Emily, the word is often it's impact. Are we actually making an impact? And the thing that helped us. Become okay with hitting the pause button when we needed to, and not officially throwing in the towel. Don't get me wrong, there were conversations about it, but we were always very honest with each other and we held each other accountable that if you are feeling like this is not jiving with your life, if it's not jiving with you personally, or it's not good for your family at this moment, let's hit the pause button and talk about it.

[00:23:26] But realizing that if we only help each other while working on this, Emily and I, that's helping our kids, that's helping our families. And there's a domino effect from that goes from that. And if that's all we ever do, what's bad about that? You said something that I, it still stuck with me and it will probably be the title of this episode.

[00:23:49] Pain is a Professor. Yes, it is. And I wanna go back to that because something that I talk about in my sessions a lot is that your emotions never lie to you. Now your thoughts are very different. Yes. Your thoughts can go a, now granted, we need to think critical thinking is important.

[00:24:04] We probably need more critical thinking, but thoughts happen to us all day, every day, constantly. Right. I don't remember what the statistic is. I think we have roughly like eight thoughts a minute, something like that. I'm surprised it's not . Maybe that's just a DH adhd. And that could be too, like, yeah, there, maybe there's a spectrum.

[00:24:18] Maybe it's eight to 80 thoughts a minute. Give or take. Give or take a hundred. But so thoughts happen to us now. We can certainly consciously choose what to focus on and what we think. But thinking happens, the emotions are in response to what we're thinking and believing. Exactly. And they never lie.

[00:24:35] Right. And I But something you said like pain as a professor. And I like the thought that emotions are energy in motion. Yes. And they always have something for you to learn. There's something for every emotion. There is something it wants you to know. Right. And when you're not feeling good are we have more pain receptors in our body, unfortunately.

[00:24:55] We have more pain receptors in our body than we do pleasure receptors. Like, and so when pain is activated, it just has a firmer grip. There's something that Martha Beck talks about that I love. It's called the, I think she calls it the Viper in the box of puppies. So if you were to imagine like, and enough said, right.

[00:25:10] Done. You get it. But you hand, if I handed you a box full of like 15 adorable, gorgeous little puppies, I mean, it's, they're the most abundant, silly, loving, fuzzy source of love, safety, pleasure. I could really go for that right now. I mean, would it, that should be a, I'm hoping there's one hiding around somewhere.

[00:25:28] We have a surprise for you, but if I were to then put a Viper in or a cobra in your box of puppies. All you're gonna see is the threat. Exactly. All you're gonna see is the threat. And I think in life, it's like we pop mo most of us more often than not, are probably living in lives with a lot of puppies.

[00:25:48] But the viper, the threat is what consumes Oh yeah. So much energy and attention and shifting your focus from one to the other is easier said than done. And I wanna talk to you specifically about how you have found meaning or, and I, when I say success, I don't mean it in like a bullet point sense, but right.

[00:26:12] Where you have found access to, you know, the viper, you know, or the cobra, you know, the box of puppies. Right. How you access that. I can certainly share how I have, but my emotions, I. I've learned in time. I don't always know exactly what they're telling me in the beginning, but I trust them enough to know that it's something.

[00:26:36] And so the first place I try to access, if I'm not dissociating or avoiding, is to sit with it. Yeah. So usually it's like, I'm I'll just dissociate in my fantasy book or rewatching parks and recreation for the MPH teeth bajillion time. You know, it's just always a Sure bet. Yeah. It's just, it's hard for, life can only be so hard with Leslie Nope and little Sebastian, you know?

[00:26:57] So anyway. But I wanna know where you find yourself in that shift. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got my head's like turning, I'm also still picturing puppies to be honest. That's okay. So I actually, I feel like I wanna give an example of something that I experienced last year, so two years ago.

[00:27:11] It's crazy to think two years ago I went on this crazy journey to England. I went to London to take my daughter, who was not quite two years old yet to have a surgery over there for her ultra rare condition that was not available in the States. And I had talked to everybody in the States, of course, that had any knowledge about it and all they could tell me was, we don't really know anything about it.

[00:27:35] We don't do it here. Kind of you're on your own, go for it. Or don't, we can't say that we would support you. All that matters is I went for it. And fortunately it did end up being the right decision, but I also knew that it could not be the right decision. And what I found on that experience was that I was originally desperate for picking the right way in life to move forward, that I could not make a decision.

[00:28:06] I could not possibly move forward unless I was a hundred percent sure. But guess what? Life isn't real big on giving you a guarantee. Yeah. Guarantees with anything. And I think where I, that's where I started to learn that I don't have to have the answers to move forward. I can be looking at that box and I can see, oh my gosh, this could go terribly wrong.

[00:28:34] But I think living with a hopeful mindset is something that allows me to keep my eye on that viper and then still interact with the puppies over here. My eye is still trained on it, but what I found is a peace in making my decision. And it was a, that feeling, that gut feeling. You know, it, I, it doesn't matter what you've gone through in life.

[00:28:58] I can't believe that there's anybody out there who hasn't just had that. I call it just that knowing in your gut, it's a physical experience and that is something. That has helped me move forward in life. Because here's the thing, guys, nobody can ever stay truly still. And that's where a lot of our pain and discomfort comes from, is fighting moving forward without certainty.

[00:29:23] Oh, let's pause right there. Oh my gosh. So there's something that Dr. Becky Kennedy who she has the good, she wrote the book Good Inside, and she's got her own beautiful podcast and work and content. She does. She really she focuses on kids, but she's really working on parents relationship with their inner child and by extension their parenting.

[00:29:43] But she talks about something called, I've called it the Gap, but she calls it the learning space. So with kids, most of their frustration, tension and meltdowns happen between meeting a moment or. A moment arising and knowing how to meet the moment. And that learning space is usually the gap in knowing or understanding of this is what's arisen and I don't know how to meet this moment.

[00:30:04] Right? And then if their context or their ability to meet it, if the moment exceeds their ability that's usually when there's a lot of pain or big feelings. Right. And I think with adults, that's usually where I see self-doubt, rumination anxiety, self-destructive tendencies.

[00:30:23] Come in and you're right. You're, I love that you said we're never really still, I mean, one that's just true based on science and physics. We're never still that's actually one of the, like, there's like two necessary components, maybe three to being a living, being or a living entity.

[00:30:36] I think, what is it? Movement, cell division, reproduction, and, I don't know, something else. Hey, anyone here pop off in the comments if you're a science boss, please gold star for you. Please. But but yeah, we're never truly still. And so even when you feel stagnant and stuck and even hearing you say that I'm actually processing in real time, one of the things that I have done that I, I discovered by accident, but probably because my body knew better than my mind did.

[00:31:04] I would, it often does. I would take my feelings on walks. I would, I talked about that movement is essential if you are literally feeling stuck. I tell, that's what I tell everybody. Anytime they're spiraling. Which it's understandable. Go for a walk. Even if it is five minutes, walk up and down your stairs.

[00:31:22] Or at the least one of my favorite things thank you Instagram reels for sucking up so much of my life at times in the hospital, but sometimes, but it's, sometimes it's, it is the perfect escape. It's okay to let the pressure off of ourselves. But there was this one that I saw it was this therapist who was like in her seventies and she was in Ireland and she's walking around in like this, you know, the quintessential Ireland landscape.

[00:31:47] And she said, I tell all of my clients when you have a problem or a worry or something that's making you feel like you need to hurry, walk outside where you can see the sky and look up. Because the moment you remove a ceiling from your view, from your your line of sight, your mind opens with it.

[00:32:08] And possibilities grow. And I have experienced that so often. And you think about it where you, when you're in a confined space. It only adds to those feelings of I'm stuck or I'm out of options, or I can't deal with this. But when you go outside and the world is just showing you how big it is and how small you are, there's actually a ton of comfort in that.

[00:32:35] There's, I've also read and heard that there's something about the way that our eyes sort of gently move and follow and track side to side. Yeah. The movement around us that activates a similar calming sensation that our body experiences in REM sleep. Because if you're tracking a bird or tracking a squirrel, or just simply seeing like the trees and movement, track your kids.

[00:32:55] Right. That'll keep you, your eyes all over the place. Girl. But like, 'cause right now we're facing a computer screen and we're in, we're under lights. Like, it's a very I mean, it's a lovely container, but it's a sterile container by comparison of being outside. And I Right. I do think that sometimes, like, like Lifeing.

[00:33:11] It can be hard, and I never wanna oversimplify holding the challenges and moving through the challenges. Right. And yet I think sometimes when something feels overly, when something feels complex and impossible, it's almo. I, my instinct is to abandon the basics. And that is always the place to start.

[00:33:32] That's always the place to start, is to go back to the basics.

[00:33:35] Knowing what you know now what. Do you think the version of you, I wrote down three years ago, but I wanna go back to two years ago bef, like as you were navigating all the travel plans and the decision to go to the UK for your daughter's surgery, what do you think that version of Ashlyn needed to hear or needed to know?

[00:33:55] And then the follow up question to that, after you answers, do you think she would've believed you?

[00:33:59] It's really funny that you're asking this question because I actually had a conversation yesterday with a neighbor's daughter who is a film student, and this question has actually been going through my mind a lot lately about, I wonder where my life would be if I'd known this in my early thirties, if I'd known, or if I had known this in my twenties.

[00:34:23] And I kept kind of going backwards like, I didn't know this then. Oh maybe if I'd known this. And I kept just, like I said, looking back and then what I realized is. It's so important that I didn't know those things because I had to experience them with the challenges. I had to climb the mountains for the first time to really understand the importance of gaining those skills for myself. So I actually think that Ashlyn, a couple years ago, I may have wanted to hear, I, what I wanted to hear was, you're making the right decision. I wanted to be validated by doctors, by people who I typically refer to as the ones who have the alphabet after their name.

[00:35:06] Can somebody please just tell me, check, you know, you're making the right choice. Or this is what I would do if it were my child. And I wanted it so desperately that I, it did almost prevent me from going. But I am blessed that because of other experiences before that, right where pain had started to evolve into a guide for my life, a way of understanding what is most important to me.

[00:35:37] It clarifies a lot. Exactly. Because often, you know, pain and fear are often about things we can't control, right? And what it showed me was that I don't need guaranteed outcomes to be able to sleep at night. I know that if I don't give it everything, including the kitchen sink, I won't be able to sleep at night.

[00:36:03] I won't be able to look at Emery when she's an adult and tell her. We tried absolutely everything we could to give you the best quality of life, and that's what I needed to be able to give her. In order for me to feel good about the mom I am. And that's what was most important to me at that time.

[00:36:23] So it sounds like maybe you trust in your ability to meet the moment enough that you don't think you would've gone back and told yourself anything? No, I think, and that's something that, like I said, I'd been thinking about a lot, like how many times if I'd only known this, if I if I'd only held my boundaries or if, or you know, these standards or, you know, all the things I could have done differently.

[00:36:48] But as I said at the beginning of this, I feel like I have lived a thousand lives and become. A thousand new versions of myself, but you don't become your next self without going through something that carves away at you to reveal it. We don't grow through the easy no we stay stagnant. And besides small talk, my biggest fear in life is staying stagnant.

[00:37:20] God, can we just let go of small talk? Oh my gosh. We all have a weather app and we all know the traffic patterns at this point. Like, do you know what's so funny about the weather app? I'm gonna use it every day. I treat my husband like the weather app, and we have an Alexa, like in, literally, like, I'll ask him what the temperature is and he'll be like.

[00:37:41] Alexa. I just, oh my goodness. It's like those basic the basic like things of moving through life. I don't know why. It's like I've, I have this like faux that's of publicist. I'm like, I don't know what I'm, so what's the weather? I can't look out the window. I can't ask my own Alexa.

[00:37:56] I always think, I think it's, I think it's more like, I think it's fair to acknowledge those as high. There's higher priorities that take up front of mind space. That's right. That's right. Things' so focused on the big things. Right? Yes. It's okay. We're not meant to like, you know, and I think that's another, that's one point I feel really compelled to bring up in this conversation based on all these things we've talked about, you know?

[00:38:20] Yes. thank you for the chance to share what Parent Empowerment Network does, and the Empowered By Hope podcast is about addressing the real hard, the messy like, because as far as we're concerned, like once you get the news, your child is not okay. You're living in the messy middle from there on out.

[00:38:36] And it can make you, or it can break you. And we're there to tell everybody, we promise this will make you. Even with worst case scenario, and that's a bold statement, but, you know, but it's one you've lived and I exactly. And I've seen countless others live, right? But I think it's so important that everybody, you know, I guess my dream would be if everybody could just realize we are not meant to carry pain and hardship and struggle by ourselves.

[00:39:07] That's really what Parent Empowerment Network does. That's really what our podcast does, is it directly says to everybody who gets a chance to interact with us or who we have the honor to meet with. It just says, Hey, you are not expected to hold this alone. You know, put some of that on our plate.

[00:39:24] Let's hold it together because it'll be better for everybody. It's not just you is like, again, that's what frees you from a victim mentality. You are not the only one who's ever experienced this. Right. You are not the only one who has suffered this way. And in by no means it's not to minimize.

[00:39:40] Right. Exactly. It's not belittling it, it's not, it's definitely not dismissing it. But it's meant to serve as a lighthouse. Right. Our stories are unique. Yes, of course. And so that's, and I think that's what is endlessly, I will never be bored having an in-depth. Not small talk with the love of God, but like, I will never I will be endlessly fascinated by other people.

[00:40:01] Because the stories are unique. Yeah. But there is a common thread that we can all see ourselves in or relate to. That, it's so enriching. Yeah. It's almost like, maybe because it's spring and, but I'm thinking it's like the pain is like the compost. Yeah. Something has to die in rotten decay in order to nurture something new. To grow. Yep. Exactly. And I, and that pain serves as fur. It's fertilizing the new, the next round of growth. Right. Yeah. It's not making anything vanish or destroying it, it's just, but it has to break down to build back up. I think that's why mosaics are my favorite type of art.

[00:40:39] Yeah. I have such a strong connection to any piece that I see that's made up of a mosaic. And I remember that coming true for me when my dad had his massive stroke and. You know, he was completely debilitated, couldn't speak for himself, couldn't move his own body. He lived like that almost two years. But I remember getting really close to a couple key therapists in his life.

[00:41:04] And I remember just after he passed, I got them both a small gift. It was these little mosaic art pieces for them. And I said, when I saw those, I knew that this was the right thing because you didn't see my dad as a destroyed person. You saw him as for the broken pieces. He was that to be put back, to be put together into something that was new and beautiful on its own.

[00:41:33] And that's what I feel like pain has the ability to do for all of us. It's okay. And I to acknowledge that you are broken. But it's also just as important to acknowledge that you can be remade into something. You, the old you is gone. You know, when we go through something awful hard, unimaginable it's really easy to think that I will feel this way forever. There is a finality that we attach to painful experiences and it takes often somebody from the outside to gently help us realize that's not reality. I often, when I'm in that transition and I'm not aware or I'm just not ready to admit there are either, there's usually it's I there's usually things I wanna carry along with me.

[00:42:28] Yep. It's like. Like an old dingy snugly blanket or like a stuffed animal that like has like holes worn in and like an eyes popped off. It's just but I when I've gone through those transitions, it's saying goodbye to maybe friendships that aren't serving me.

[00:42:42] Yep. Or titles, roles levels of output expectations, stories, ways of being and the way, and to go back to pain as a professor, which is going to be the title. That it's only when I try to take the old way of being or the old relationship that is no longer serving into my new now reality.

[00:43:04] When it feels anything other than good. Yeah. That's information exactly that it's showing me something and. That curiosity over constriction can also for me look like curiosity over criticism. And because that criticism is usually either dialed inward, what's wrong with me? Right. Or what's wrong with them?

[00:43:25] Versus , what is happening Exactly. What's going on? What is this showing me? And I would say probably saying goodbye to relationships or friendships has probably been the hardest. Yeah. The hard, because there is this idea that I'm like if I like it, and it's like in a possessive way.

[00:43:42] It's, if I like you forever. And I, and of course that is true. I mean, it, there's nobody who's been in my life that's added value that I don't appreciate. Right. But but I think that the shedding. Yeah. It's like I, I want the next thing, but I also don't wanna let the old thing go.

[00:43:56] Right. And so it's, I think I've spent a lot of time and energy trying to like, pull that thing with me. Whatever it is and whatever that stage. But I think that there's when you can fully embrace, 'cause what I'm hearing from you is when you can fully embrace I am different now.

[00:44:11] Yep. This is different. This mosaic. I'm not, I may not be able to carry water like I was as a vase. Right. But I'm gonna look really great as this. Yeah. And the other thing I wanna shift to before, before I get to your, don't cut your own bangs question. What I wanna ask you, you've mentioned art a couple of different times.

[00:44:28] And this is to, to reference Dr. Martha Beck again. She has done a lot of incredible work in the last couple years where a way to. Step out of anxiety is not to try to access calm. 'cause we talked about going for a walk, right? So, because as much as I love these big conversations, it can be sometimes like, what is something tangible I can actually hold onto?

[00:44:53] So walking with something we talked about community and connection with something else we talked about, but Art, I wanna talk about that for a moment because that is what my book was for me. Yeah. It was I created something that only that felt like it was to serve me. The process of interacting with that idea was so delightful and so delicious and so fun that I was like, I feel like I'm just the luckiest person that like this is, oh wow, I get to play with this thing.

[00:45:21] Yeah. And it wants to play with me. And I don't feel that all the time. Like sometimes it's origami or doodling or coloring with my daughter. But to go back to Dr. Martha Beck's work that the opposite of anxiety is not calm, it's creativity. Oh, I love that. And you have by default really spoken through, like just healing through creating.

[00:45:43] Oh, absolutely. And also there's something about, 'cause calm, there's something about calm that like, we must be still, and granted I love meditation, but like, I must be still, I must be calm. But when you are holding something that is buzzing and shaking or heavy or hot, like just some emotions are hot, like you, it's like you wanna move it through your hands or your words or your body and make something, right.

[00:46:06] And you made me, she made me this bracelet before we started this episode. So like, it feels like you have a relationship with creativity too. A hundred percent. Creativity is a lifeline. And I feel like, and the most chaotic moments of my life have been the least I'm my least creative and I think it's a really.

[00:46:29] Valuable, tangible thing for anybody to take from this conversation is if you are feeling out of control, lean into something as simple as I'm obsessed with those adult, you know, like the coloring books. Yes. You know, for adults to have like tons of different like lines all over the place that you have to be like really specific to keep the marker in there.

[00:46:51] It can't, I do get a little bugged when it like bleeds over to the next section, but, , it's okay. I know I'm working through my, , my stressors at that moment. But yes, giving yourself a creative outlet, it's like taking a big drink of water after you've been exercising and you are so parched.

[00:47:07] And I also agree that , calm sounds great in theory, but for me I feel like the more important, like the word that's become more important or I'm better able to. Absorb is the idea of am I grounded? Are my feet touching the ground? I can still have a lot going on, but when I'm like rising higher, you know, off the ground, 'cause like, I'm like a bird at this point, just flapping my arms so fast, right.

[00:47:35] That I'm actually taking flight. I'm not in my best head space, but when I can just take a moment to literally just ground myself, make sure that my feet are, whether it's in the grass or sit down like this. And a conversation with a friend, somebody who really knows you is a great moment for that.

[00:47:53] It's a great way to remind you who you are is somebody else. Sometimes I talk all the time about the value of when you can connect with somebody who feels with you, not just for you. Oh my gosh. It makes the world so much lighter and goodness. I mean, huh. That's probably if I could have answered the question I asked you a little bit ago, what's something that you could have if I could have told my former therapist self, like when I very when I first started, you're there to hold space for people to feel and feel with them.

[00:48:23] Right. Exactly. You're not there. It's sacred. Yeah. It's there's nothing, one, it's like, there's nothing I can tell someone who's deeply in pain that they're actually gonna No. , That's, the words are just like, right. It's just noise. Yeah. And not to take anything. I'm sure I have clients who have been impacted by words.

[00:48:40] But having a safe space to feel your feelings free of judgment. Is one of the reasons why I love journaling so much, but also doing that in communion Yeah. With another human right who expects nothing of you. I love Elizabeth Gilbert has language I love, like there's no precious outcome.

[00:48:57] Like I can, that I can sit and have space with you or I can make plans with you or be, and there's no precious outcome. You don't have to perform for me. Right. You don't have to be anything for me. Like we can just be that is what a gift. Yes, that is. I just want to, this conversation has inspired way too many thoughts, but in the best way.

[00:49:15] But something that hit me and then I think we could absolutely move on to Yeah. This the cut your bangs question. But what I've realized even in our conversation is that logic is not loud . our emotions are loud and they get louder and louder. The more we. Push them back the more we ignore them.

[00:49:36] Think of your kids until they, when they need your attention. Because they deserve your attention. They do. The best thing we can do is acknowledge those emotions and just, even if it's as simple as, it's totally understandable. I feel this way right now. That is such a freeing sentence. Of course, I feel this way right now.

[00:49:58] That was some serious shit that I just went through. Yeah . of course, I feel, and it doesn't have to make sense when those feelings hit the timing a lot of times feelings for me, I've found won't hit until I'm in a safe space much further down the road. Yes. And it's like being T-boned, like yes, totally out of the blue.

[00:50:19] But that's also what happens to kids when they have tantrums. Ah, yeah. They'll hold. And then when they're finally either home at the end of the day or something, when the container is so full and they're finally in a place where they feel safe, they'll erupt over an orange peel not being peeled correctly.

[00:50:32] Or , or a banana not being peeled correctly. Oh gosh. And it's not that, don't even start me on string cheese. God. Oh God. Parenting is fun. The best, but No, but you're right. Sometimes, I think that's probably why I cry almost with like every movie and TV show I watch.

[00:50:47] Yeah. Because the emotions are just always right there and I just need a place to let it trickle out. Right. And that's okay. And I think, but just not judging ourselves for feelings. And then I think once we give that space or the feelings, the sooner we can do that, the sooner that logic, you know, like you, you mentioned multiple times, I know this, then you give logic.

[00:51:13] The space that it needs to speak to you in a calm and quiet manner that you can actually trust. And that's where I think that those gut feelings truly come from. Those inner knowings are, when you've allowed space for the emotions first, given them their due. So then the logic can start to talk to you because it's never going to yell for your attention.

[00:51:35] No. And I think we want it to, but that's not the way it works. And that's okay. A lot of times things make sense in hindsight, oh gosh, hindsight's 2020. Always. South Park has a great episode. If people if you have just like a dark sense of humor and you wanna laugh at, there's a character called Captain Hindsight and it's really funny.

[00:51:54] . So yeah, a lot of times things don't make sense until we're. A little bit more removed from them. Yep. And some what I have found to be helpful, I've noticed you using your hands. Yeah. And I find when I am, when my mind is really active and I need it to stop or slow down or I just i'll sometimes even throw my hands up. Yeah. And I'll say, and even saying. I'm feeling something and just to myself in my kitchen. 'cause I'm almost always , because I work from home, I'm either like in my office or in my kitchen, like I'm feeling something. As soon as you did that, it's gonna show on video.

[00:52:25] I like saw from the corner of my eye myself, naturally going, whew. Yeah. Just sound like inhale. Exhale. Yes. It's like something is being felt. Something's happening. I don't know what it is, but something's happening. And I think, in a lot of ways too, like that's how we have these internal smoke signals.

[00:52:42] Yeah. And it's the same way, like your smoke detector in your house doesn't know the difference between burnt toast and something on fire, right? But it will beep when it senses. Yeah. When it senses something. And so my body is like sensing something. Is this a threat?

[00:52:56] Are we safe? Yes, we're safe. Oh, we're likely. We just needed water. We're just dehydrated. Uhhuh. Or we just, yeah. So any number of things. But that was so good. Thank you. And yes, I would love, love, love to know your don't cut your own bang moment. And for anybody who is new to the podcast, 'cause I think there are some new people here.

[00:53:15] Thank you for being here. Don't cut Your own bang moment is a moment where you went all in on something like cutting your own bangs, you grabbed some scissors, you watched a YouTube video, you're like, I got this. And you go, and then, oh no, this wasn't what I thought it would be. But the value in a don't Cut Your own Bang moment is not only that we can share in the silliness of humanity and mistakes, but also like maybe we learn something from it.

[00:53:42] So, Ashlyn? Yes. I would love to hear your Don't cut your own bang moment. Oh my goodness. I think that there's probably a plethora of them. Oh, of course. And, let's see here. I'm even, I tried to have one prepared, and then I got excited about the rest of our conversation. Oh my gosh. Don't worry. So, okay I'll share one.

[00:53:58] So what's a good, don't a good, oh. I invited my husband to record a podcast with me because I thought it would just be, , fun to bring him back on. And what I realized was I didn't prepare him for it at all. I just set up lights and set up a camera and asked him to sit. And he was so, visibly like he was trying, he was sitting, he was trying.

[00:54:23] But I could just tell, again, something's happening. And I could tell he was a little uncomfortable and a little stiff. And I kept, because our eyes look out. My first assumption is, what's wrong out there? And I was like, what are you okay? What's wrong? And he he was , I don't really know what I'm supposed to be doing.

[00:54:41] And then I was like. Oh, no, it was snip the bangs. I didn't provide any context. I didn't give him any preparation for what we'd be talking about, why we'd be talking like he had no context. And the whole setup is different, uhhuh. And it was such a humbling, settling moment of context.

[00:55:04] It's I'm writing something right now about this idea of play. I'm a freedom loving, freedom seeking play hungry, greedy person right now. I want more play. I could never get enough. But what makes play feel fun and safe is to understand the context. Yeah. , There's rules in a game.

[00:55:20] Otherwise, what is it? And I, my first instinct is to buck. Rules. I don't like ingredient lists. I don't like recipes. I just wanna feel my way through it. But, if you wanna make a beautiful croissant, you can't just feel your way through that. There's a very exacting way to do it. And so, it, it was such a one, I'm endlessly grateful for him and his patients with me.

[00:55:40] I'm grateful that , our dynamics not new, so he probably knew what was going on, but just did yeah he's pretty sweet that way. But I, it was such a refresher that , if I wanna create a space and container to play safely with people Yeah. I need to give them the context. Absolutely. And it doesn't matter how long I've known someone, how well I know someone.

[00:55:59] I laughed at myself because I, the part of the reason why it feels funny to me, but in like a humbling way. I thought the problem was him for like the first 15 minutes. I was like, what dude? Relax. I was like, what? Is he doing it right?

[00:56:12] Yeah. like come on. And I was like. Oh no. Context. Zero. Oh my goodness. So that was a great one. Thank you. Okay, I'm gonna do mine in like short seconds because this one just hap this that inspired me perfectly. So my 8-year-old son and I are both going to the same therapist right now.

[00:56:30] I'm a believer everybody should have at least an annual checkup with a therapist, but that's a great endorsement. Everyone should have an you annual checkup. You welcome, reach out to Danielle, she's fantastic. If you live in Indiana, by all means. If not, we'll help you find someone. Yes. And also order the book.

[00:56:44] Yes, order the book. Get resting the wall risk. Get treasured. Yes. But go on please. So anyway one, one of the things that my I, the reason I love the person we're working with is because she's the first therapist I've worked with when it comes to, with my kids, she actually tells me what I can work on rather than just , you're doing the best you can and like you just love 'em.

[00:57:03] And like, yes, I know, but that is not helping me. And so one of the things that got pointed out to me. Was so Cole , has very low frustration tolerance, like more so than is necessarily healthy for an 8-year-old. And of course with all the trauma with our his sister, our journey, it's understandable.

[00:57:22] So we're working on that. What she kindly pointed out to me was, okay, we could work on his, but do you also realize that your tolerance for acceptable emotions is about this big? Oh, she's , therapist, be therapist Uhhuh. She's , but there's like a whole lot more emo like, she's , it's like a whole rainbow.

[00:57:42] We need a whole arc for acceptable emotions. She's so you need to stop making it your responsibility to control which emotions he experiences. And it's up to you to provide the solid ground for him no matter which emotion comes up for him. And I will say that has changed my parenting in the last week.

[00:58:04] More than maybe anything has like faster than anything. Because all of a sudden I'm like, of course it's acceptable that his sister just made him extremely mad. Of course it's understandable that he's jealous or sad or excited or whatever the feeling is, but it also doesn't define him as right or wrong, what emotions he's experiencing in that moment.

[00:58:28] And the big thing was the realization that every emotion he experiences is not a direct reflection of who I am as a parent. No. Because that was what I needed to let go of that any emotion that is considered negative that my child has doesn't mean. That I'm doing a bad job as a parent. Oh my God.

[00:58:49] That is one. What a beautiful. Don't cut. Thank you. With Dr. Sarah. Yes. Thank you, Dr. Sarah. You'd be therapizing all up in that session. That was so good. And it's the, that to me is a great example that hard truths can always be delivered with kindness. Yeah. But I think the big important thing there is you had the right context.

[00:59:12] Exactly. You went to her for that information. Right. It wasn't like someone on the street. But the thing that we can't give someone what we don't have. Exactly. And I actually think that what you just said, if there was ever an endorsement for what. Self-care actually is not the commoditized, right.

[00:59:29] Faux sense of, I'm gonna create a problem and I'm going to prescribe collagen. Did you know that the reason why, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah is these things that you need to buy and, oh, my program for blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm gonna, I have all that stuff. I'm not I'm wanna, I wanna keep it in perspective.

[00:59:45] I am drinking the same Kool-Aid 'cause I'm getting sent the same algorithm ads that we're all getting sent. Like I'm doing colostrum now. I don't even know. Like, I just, because I was like, my gut might grow up I own, but anyway but I think self-care and the best possible context is when you nurture.

[01:00:03] And heal yourself. It becomes the medicine. Yes. Yes. And the offering for the other people in your life that you love most. It's like as you increase your own palette of what you're able to allow yourself to experience, you're then also able to see it in your son and give it to him. That is so beautiful and it's hard.

[01:00:26] Sometimes, but it's some God that a well timed, articulated loving truth like that can change your life. Yeah. That is amazing. Thank you. I don't know, we can't top that. That was good. We're good. That was real good. Ashlyn Thompson, thank you so much for coming back and we're going to have you back.

[01:00:43] You have to come back. Yes. And you're coming over to Empowered by Hope very soon. I would love that so much. And Yes. And so all of the ways, if you or anyone you know in your life has been impacted by a little one with complex me complex medical issues and you want some support, you want some information, you want some resources.

[01:01:01] The link in the show notes will have every way that you can connect with Ashlyn, her business partner, and what was formally Charlotte's Hope Foundation, what is now the Parent Empowerment Network. Pick up all the books, all the resources, everything I talked about too for my stuff is also in there.

[01:01:16] But , it's all linked for you there. So I hope that you get what you need and. Thanks so much, . Oh my gosh.

[01:01:21] If you've ever wanted to pick up journaling, but you didn't know where to start and you just found yourself staring at a blank page, or maybe you're someone who has journaled off and on your whole life, but you want to take the work a little deeper, I have something for you. It's called the Treasure Journal.

[01:01:35] It is something that I made originally intended for my therapy clients who I would give some homework to do or some things to write down and process in their own time, and they would come back. With the most enriched insights that could really help us take their work to a whole new place. Journaling is something I believe in deeply.

[01:01:53] It's something that I use in my personal life as well as my therapy practice with clients. Even if you don't find that you need a tool like this, I hope that you can access a journal somewhere in your life. I made this with you in mind. If you have ever felt stuck in that process, you don't have to feel stuck.

[01:02:11] You don't have to be alone. The journal is broken down into seven key areas of your life with stories. Sentence stems from my therapy practice, questions that I use with clients all the time, and all intended to guide you a little deeper with a little bit more safety and context. There's beautiful blank space at the end for you to do your own processing at your own rate and speed.

[01:02:32] Hop on over to the show notes and grab a copy of your treasure journal today.

[01:02:36] Danielle: Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I hope that you enjoyed it because I thoroughly enjoyed making it. I believe the best things in life are shared, and so not only the process of making this at so much value, joy in my life, but being able to share it with you makes it tenfold 10 x better.

[01:02:57] So thank you for being here. I also wanna remind you that the best way for the podcast to grow and for more people to find it, and it's through algorithm and tech things that I don't fully understand. But I do know this, that when you rate review and subscribe to the podcast, it actually helps the podcast grow.

[01:03:12] So let me know what you think. How can I make it better? Or if you loved it and you just wanna gimme a compliment, I will gladly accept that too. But thank you so much for being here, and I hope that you continue to have an incredible day. 

 

Danielle Ireland, kicks off the new video era of 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs' by reintroducing herself, reflecting on her journey from ballroom dance instructor to therapist, and discussing her new children's book 'Wrestling a Walrus for Little People with Big Feelings.' She candidly shares her fears and procrastination battle, revealing how overcoming them led her here. Danielle outlines what's to come in the podcast, including solo casts and insightful interviews, and emphasizes her mission to make big feelings feel less scary. Join her for meaningful conversations, personal growth, and plenty of laughs.

 

00:00 Welcome to the Video Podcast

00:34 Overcoming Fear and Procrastination

02:07 Reintroducing Myself and the Podcast

02:42 Writing a Children's Book

03:50 The Heartbeat of the Podcast

05:01 Future Podcast Plans

08:41 Personal Updates and Challenges

12:01 Top Episodes and Gratitude

13:18 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

 

THE TREASURED JOURNAL - https://danielleireland.com/journal

The one tool I recommend to all of my therapy clients is journaling. Getting your thoughts out of your head and down on the page is a simple act that can change your life. I made the Treasured Journal for anyone who wants to dig a little deeper but doesn’t know where to start. The questions, prompts, and sentence stems in the journal will help support you in exploring the big feelings in your life. Learn more about this specially designed journal and its companion Meditation Series at https://danielleireland.com/journal.

READ DANIELLE ON SUBSTACK

I’m now on Substack and I’d love for you to check it out. Substack is its own platform that is teeming with my favorite thought leaders, writers, and authors—incredible people out in the world who are asking interesting questions and exploring interesting answers. I'm throwing my hat in the ring and putting engaging content out there, too. So, click the link (https://danielleireland.substack.com/) to subscribe. You’ll stay up to date and never miss out on the best new material. 

 

VISIT DANIELLE’S WEBSITE 

If you’d like more content like this and you want to stay in the know, hop on over to my website (https://danielleireland.com/) and hit subscribe. There you will always be up to date on the latest learning material, my blog, and other meaningful content. Just click on the website so that you never miss out.  

 

RATE, REVIEW, SUBSCRIBE TO “DON’T CUT YOUR OWN BANGS” 

Like your favorite recipe or song, the best things in life are shared. When you rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast, your engagement helps me connect  with other listeners just like you. Plus, subscriptions just make life easier for everybody. It's one less thing for you to think about and you can easily keep up to date on everything that’s new. So, please rate, review, and subscribe today. 

 

DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.

 

Website: https://danielleireland.com/

 

The Treasured Journal: https://danielleireland.com/journal

 

Substack: https://danielleireland.substack.com/

 

Blog: https://danielleireland.com/blog/

 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danielleireland_lcsw

 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/danielleireland.LCSW

 

Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@danielleireland8218/featured

 

[00:00:08] Hello. Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are listening or watching. Don't cut your own bangs. I wanted to take this opportunity with this new video.

[00:00:19] to say hello and reintroduce myself. Whether you are joining for the first time, or you've been a long time listener since the podcast first began, I just wanna welcome you back and welcome myself to the video podcasting space.

[00:00:34] I put it off for a long time. Mostly because I didn't know if I could figure it out and I was afraid. But that is also what this podcast is about. When I was transitioning from working as a ballroom dance instructor to building a career as a therapist and all of those twisty zigzags in between, there was a lot of uncertainty, a lot of doubt, and can I freaking do this?

[00:01:00] And what I have found to be true. only every single time is that whenever I approach something new that excites me, that I really want, that's just like, just teetering on the growth edge. I feel the same way every time. I don't know if I can do this. This is gonna be really hard, maybe I shouldn't. And then I do, a dance of procrastination where I.

[00:01:26] Learn a little bit, feel kind of frozen, and we'll re-watch a comfort show, binge Parks and Rec or Gilmore Girls, and then that feeling, that pestering knock on the internal doors, like, Hey, are you gonna come play with us? And so then I try to pick the baton back up and learn a little bit more. And so inch by inch by inch.

[00:01:48] I find myself here on video doing a podcast, which actually feels great. But this, that's the other thing too. It's like if you can get over your fear just enough to try to do the thing and you start doing the thing you've been putting off almost every time you find out, oh, it was really not as scary as I thought, or nor was it as hard as I thought.

[00:02:07] What I wanted to do was reintroduce myself if you're new to the podcast, and give you an idea of what you can expect in these upcoming episodes. 'cause I'm figuring it out too. And then also just share a little bit about what I've been doing between the last time I was really recording consistently and now, and hopefully humanize the gap and.

[00:02:32] Just kind of rev myself back up into doing something that I love, which is sharing, sharing the space with you. So what have I been doing? I wrote a children's book. It is called Wrestling a Walrus for little People with Big Feelings. I'm a parent of two. I have a 4-year-old and a one and a half year old, and they have big.

[00:02:53] Freaking feelings. I haven't decided yet. If I'm gonna openly curse at every podcast I've ever done, I let myself curse. But somehow like this being on video, I feel different about it. We'll figure that out along the way too. But I wrote this book and I actually did a mini series about the writing process with Emily Sutherland, who is the woman who helped me edit the book, who has been my children's book Guiding Light in this whole writing processing.

[00:03:21] And cultivating slash self-publishing process. And so if you want to do a deeper dive into that, you can. It's only in audio. It's not video, But, this, this book is a big reason why I'm excited in a renewed way to record this podcast and put it in.

[00:03:42] Another format that potentially makes it more accessible, because I believe in this book, I love this little book. it's a little book with a big idea. And that idea has been, I think the, the heartbeat of what made me love this work in the podcast space as well as the work I do as a therapist, which is when we confront a seemingly insurmountable obstacle.

[00:04:08] And in this case it happens to be. A large feeling or a walrus. But when we confront something that seems impossible, we will use every well worn, familiar, mostly ineffective way to tackle that obstacle. And because what we want is for the obstacle to not be an obstacle. What we want is for the obstacle to change.

[00:04:31] But what I know through my own lived experience and what I know through walking. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people through their most painful processes is that what makes the obstacle move is an internal movement, emotions or energy in motion. They want you to move. They have something for you to learn.

[00:04:58] And that's what I wanna talk about here in this space. So we will have a combination moving forward of solo casts where it'll be like this with me, just you and me here in this space, Talking about really key specific takeaways that come through my practice as a therapist.

[00:05:18] I'm not going to be sharing any secrets from what clients are divulging personally, but there's this beautiful balance between specificity of a moment that seems so unique to an individual that almost the deeper you go in. What you find on the other side is this universality, this common thread that is bigger than the individual, that's bigger than the story, and it's something we can all learn from and grow from together.

[00:05:48] And then beyond the solo casts, which will be. Generally between 20 and 30 minutes, we will have interviews. Again, I miss interviews. That was how the podcast began, mostly because I was afraid afraid of the format. so I thought if I just bring someone along with me and I talk to them, I'll have something to talk about.

[00:06:07] turns out I have no shortages of things to say, We wanna have guests back. I wanna talk to, I wanna revisit some of our most popular interviews. I wanna have them back and catch up. Where are they now? Because as a creator and as an ever evolving, growing person, when you shift out of the starting something phase and you're in a, I need to keep it alive phase.

[00:06:31] That's a different point of view, that's a different energy, that's a different focus. And that's going to lead to a different conversation. And I wanna know where people are because I was right in the beginning of my podcasting journey with some of the, my favorite interviews of all time. And I've grown, I've changed.

[00:06:47] And I know that they have two. So we're gonna invite some old friends back, not old chronologically. Biologically, in the. Lifespan of the podcast, but we're gonna invite them back and continue those conversations as well as invite some new friends that either I've never met or you've never met, and we're gonna just grow and have really fun, in-depth, meaningful discussion.

[00:07:12] But here's what you can expect every time, whether it's just me or whether it's me and a friend having a meaningful conversation or interview. What I really wanna do in this podcast is make big feelings feel less scary. I want to help make them feel easier to understand, and I wanna make approaching them feel possible because it is possible.

[00:07:35] And whenever possible, as much as possible, I wanna laugh mostly for my own healing, and my own, I guess selfish reasons. But what I have found to be true time and time again is when we are faced with truth, like not just something that sounds true or an interesting fact, but when we are hit with something that is undeniably true, it elicits a physiological response and we either cry in those moments or laugh

[00:08:07] I hold a lot of space for tears for people, and I think for my own sense of balance and for my own selfish need. I wanna laugh, and I think when you can turn challenges into something that amuses you or delights you. That is a real power move. I wanna discover that in real time here and I wanna discover that with you.

[00:08:33] And so that is my goal. That's my goal with this next wave of the podcast to share a little history and what has been going on in this break? when I got pregnant with my son, Who's a year and a half old now. I lost a lot of extra energy reserve, which on the face value of it sounds like, of course.

[00:08:52] That makes sense. but I have also seen and felt the opposite when I was pregnant with my first, I had this Almost like extra adrenaline edge that made me wanna go, go, go and make, make, make, and do, do, do. And with my son, I just felt like if there was like a buns and burner for my life force energy, it was dialed down.

[00:09:12] And not just in a depressive way, but my light dimmed. I was burning more and didn't have extra fuel to put into things outside of where I absolutely needed to show up, therapy home, my physical health. and that left me in kind of a limbic space with this.

[00:09:33] I loved making it, but I had changed and I needed to allow this to change with me The process of writing this beautiful little book for little people with big feelings, helped me reignite a creative spark that I was missing. I started this about a year ago, and again, if you want to know

[00:09:56] how the book began, how I wrote it, why all of the little twists and turns into the actual nuts and bolts of how I wrote the book and how I made the book. you can, there's a whole podcast miniseries on that, specifically with Emily Sutherland. But all that to say is that that process of making this idea from an idea to a living thing helped light a new spark in me

[00:10:20] Reignited my excitement, enthusiasm to show up here. The other experience that happened is that, somebody tried to create a podcast with the same name and I had to take some pretty strong action to protect the content that I put a lot of love and effort and sweat, and energy into cultivating. And in that process of fighting for it, I had a fork in the road moment where I essentially had to decide.

[00:10:48] Okay, you're gonna fight for it, but what are you fighting for? Are you fighting for it because you don't want someone else to touch it? Or are you fighting for it because you still wanna do something with it? And what I realized was that little push was kind of, it felt like a nudge, just a gentle nudge saying, Hey, do you still wanna play with us?

[00:11:10] Do you still wanna do something here? And then the answer was yes. So that was the other, and ugh. And then I moved, I moved, oh, I moved houses. And it was, it was a lot. I am humbled. There's, there's experiences you hear about and you think you know about until you experience them yourself. And I did not understand.

[00:11:34] What the energetic toll of moving a house with small children and for the people who do that all the time or who have done that many times over, maybe you get better at it with time, but damn it is, it's, it, it takes a toll too. So for all those reasons and more, I had to, or rather chose to take a pause on the podcast, but I love, I love being back and I love that we're here.

[00:12:01] And another thing that's important too, especially if you're new to the Don't Cut Your Own Banks podcast. So we have 172 episodes in the bank, in the back catalog, and I love every single one of them. But what I wanna do is make for new people that are discovering the podcast for the first time, I wanna make.

[00:12:24] Your lives a wee bit easier. And so what I've done is gone through and combed through the archives and the 50 most listened to most downloaded episodes. Those are the ones that are gonna remain and everything else is gonna stay in the back catalog.

[00:12:38] A lot of great, great episodes and interviews and solo cast, but what you're going to see if you are just listening to this, when you file back, you're gonna see the top 50 most listened to most downloaded episodes. I hope you go through and listen to them at your leisure. I know there's a lot of content out there.

[00:12:54] I know there's a lot of places you can be, but yeah, those are some real gems that are sitting there for you. And mostly I just wanna say thank you if you are still listening. Thank you for being here. Thank you if you've been there since the beginning. Thanks for still listening. Thanks for joining me in this new journey and video.

[00:13:13] I'm going to continue to learn and get better and hopefully improve. And this is gonna be a really fun, this is gonna be an awesome adventure and. As always, your time, your care, your attention, and your presence. Here, they mean the world to me. I look forward to adding value to your life, making big feelings, feel less scary, helping you feel less alone because you're not.

[00:13:35] And whenever possible. As much as possible, finding opportunities to laugh because we deserve to delight in our life. We deserve delight. You deserve it. So thanks for being here. I look forward to continuing on this journey. And. Just whatever you do, don't cut your own bangs.

[00:13:54]

 

Welcome back to the final episode of the Creativity Miniseries! In this conversation, Emily Sutherland and I open up our personal creativity toolkits and share the resources and strategies that help us bring our ideas to life.

Working on this miniseries with Emily has been an absolute joy. She’s not just an incredible creative and coach—she’s also become a trusted friend and advisor throughout the development of Wrestling a Walrus, my first children’s book. I truly could not imagine doing this without her.

Interestingly, we didn’t plan on recording another discussion on the creative process, but that’s exactly where our behind-the scenes, warm-up conversation led us. So, we left it in. I think you might find some usefulness in this bonus material as we share our thoughts on the value of authenticity, the importance of differentiating yourself, and the surprising relationship between uncertainty and clarity. 

A huge thank you to Emily for her wisdom and generosity, and to you for joining us as part of the creative community. 

Buy my NEW book Wrestling a Walrus, HERE!

SPECIAL MENTIONS

Emily Sutherland’s Storytelling for Business (April 4, 2025) and Nurturing Your Creative Self (May 9, 2025) - https://www.emilysutherland.me/events

Storytelling Community (Substack) - https://open.substack.com/pub/storytellingcommunity

The Secret Lies Within by “Auntie Anne” Beiler and Emily H. Sutherland - http://bit.ly/3FmIxPT

Betsy B. Murphy - https://substack.com/@betsybmurphy or http://betsybmurphy.com/

Vanessa Marin, sex therapist on IG @vanessaandxander

PROCESS TOOLKIT

Write it down when you feel it (and be prepared in the middle of the night).

Be ready for the idea.

Be discerning about what, when, and who to share your idea with.   

When your idea is at a tender stage, who are your tender people? Do you need an editor or a cheerleader?

Journaling. Let the creative juices flow without requiring an outcome.

The more you write, the more ideas will come. Immerse yourself  and trust the process. 

Try on new ideas to see if they go anywhere.

“I make what I like, and they eat it how they want to eat it.” - Erykah Badu to Donald Glover

ELECTRONIC TOOLS

Manuscript Software - Scrivener - affiliate link: https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener/overview?fpr=emilysuth

Google Docs, YouTube, and Apps (e.g., voice memo, talk-to-text, notes)

IngramSpark - https://www.ingramspark.com/ 

Kindle Direct Publishing - https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B008241EAQ

Storytelling Workshops - https://www.emilysutherland.me/events

PHYSICAL TOOLS 

Fine Tip Sharpie Pen or The Pilot G2 (in multiple colors!)

Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert - https://www.elizabethgilbert.com/books/big-magic/

Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott - https://writingforyourlife.com/bird-by-bird-some-instructions-on-writing-and-life/

The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron - https://juliacameronlive.com/books-by-julia/

Rifle Paper Company little notebooks (great for lefties!) - https://riflepaperco.com/

The Treasured Journal - https://danielleireland.com/journal

DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

Thank you for your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.

Website - https://danielleireland.com/

The Treasured Journal - https://danielleireland.com/journal

Substack - https://danielleireland.substack.com/

Blog - https://danielleireland.com/blog/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/danielleireland_lcsw

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/danielleireland.LCSW

Podcast on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@danielleireland8218/featured

 

 

 

 

Creative expression can be a powerful tool for personal healing and growth because the creative work we do is so connected to the healing work we need.

From following along in this Creativity Miniseries, you know that Emily Sutherland has been my special guest on this journey. Emily is a ghostwriter, published author, coach, and executive storyteller. Together, we have explored the messy, magical stages of bringing an idea to life—Inspiration, Preparation, and Perspiration. Now, we’ve arrived at the final stage: Creation. 

In the Creation stage, you pour your heart into the work, but how do you know when it’s truly finished? Is it ever really done? When is it time to share your creation with the world? This final stage of the process can feel both vulnerable and exhilarating. Emily and I explore it all.

While this episode covers the last stage in our series on the creative process, we’re not done just yet! Stick around for our next episode, when we share our Creativity Toolkit—packed with tips on making time for your craft, resources for self-publishing, and much more.

Thank you for listening!

Buy my NEW book Wrestling a Walrus, HERE!

RESOURCES

Emily Sutherland’s Storytelling for Business (April 4, 2025) and Nurturing Your Creative Self (May 9, 2025) -https://www.emilysutherland.me/events

Emily H. Sutherland website - https://www.emilysutherland.me/

Madeleine L'Engle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_L%27Engle

IngramSpark - https://www.ingramspark.com/

THE TREASURED JOURNAL

Learn more about this specially designed journal and its companion Meditation Series at https://danielleireland.com/journal

DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

Thank you for your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.

Website - https://danielleireland.com/

Substack - https://danielleireland.substack.com/

Blog - https://danielleireland.com/blog/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/danielleireland_lcsw

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/danielleireland.LCSW

Podcast on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@danielleireland8218/featured