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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz welcomes UK-based film industry analyst Stephen Follows for a discussion about film profitability and its connection to data. Stephen's digital book Greenlight Signals analyzes over 10,000 films and 4 million audience responses using secondary data (existing reviews, ratings, and comments from across the internet) to discover what makes a film successful. Together, Kevin and Stephen explore the same mission from different angles: ensuring filmmakers can make money while making the movies they're passionate about.

From Film School to Data Research (2:32) Stephen shares his path from producing micro-budget features to becoming an entertainment data analyst, driven by his love of cinema and his passion for solving problems through logic and research.

The Numbers Don’t Lie (9:59) Stephen recounts the eye-opening experience of helping a producer friend with a business plan, only to discover that every similar film had lost money.

Why Experience Doesn't Equal Success (12:47) Stephen reveals his surprising research finding: there's little to no correlation between a producer's experience and their film's profitability, showing how passion can interfere with business sense.

Two Books, One Goal (22:01) Kevin and Stephen discuss their approaches to data: Kevin's How to Score in Hollywood focuses on pre-greenlight capability testing using audience data, while Stephen's Greenlight Signals uses secondary data to identify patterns across genres. Both emphasize that data guides decisions rather than dictating them.

Horror Films: Control and Atmosphere (33:50) Stephen and Kevin discuss what makes horror movies work, from declaring your genre early to shot-length and how controlling what audiences see and when they see it is essential to creating fear.

Every Movie Should Make Money (45:50) Kevin and Stephen discuss Kevin's theory that every film, if made and marketed for the right price, should be profitable.

Universal Rules Across All Genres (47:49) Stephen and Kevin identify critical commonalities of successful films: emotional authenticity, clear character wants, visible stakes, avoiding confusion, respecting established rules, and maintaining consistent tone throughout.

This episode offers invaluable insights for anyone interested in the intersection of art and commerce in Hollywood.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Stephen Follows
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Stephen Follows:
Website: https://stephenfollows.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stephenfollows/
IMDB: https

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz explores the intersection of social media and film marketing with Troy and Mark Paul, the son and father duo behind SGG Media. Their innovative agency represents over 2,300 sports micro-influencers with a combined reach of 88 million followers, helping major studios navigate a sea change in content marketing. Once reliant on TV, radio, and outdoor advertising, studios and streamers now lean heavily into social media to connect with audiences, particularly the elusive 18-35 year old male demographic. SGG's network of passionate superfans creates authentic engagement in ways traditional advertising simply cannot.

What Makes Micro-Influencers Different (03:10) Troy explains that SGG represents everyday superfans, not celebrities. These creators have built loyal, engaged communities around their passion for sports.

The Origin Story: From NYU to Entrepreneurship (18:02) Troy shares how he identified an untapped opportunity during COVID-19: sports fans creating content with millions of impressions but no monetization strategy. His high school friend Joe Hayes, who had built a 150,000-follower account, became employee number one.

A Father's Investment and Guidance (12:38) Mark discusses putting his money where his belief was, investing $1 million of the company's total $3 million raised capital, and how he and Troy have deferred compensation for two consecutive years to reinvest in growth.

The Pizza Entrepreneur at Age 11 (25:55) Mark shares the story of Troy's first business venture: hiring runners to buy pizzas and reselling slices to lazy classmates.

Authenticity Over Celebrity (36:39) Troy contrasts traditional influencer marketing with SGG's approach: their creators have smaller but deeply loyal audiences, creating authentic engagement rather than paid celebrity endorsements that feel like "cash grabs."

Universal's Breakthrough Campaign (39:35) Troy details how Universal brilliantly marketed the Jordan Peele film Him by timing the trailer drop with the NFL Draft and having 400+ NFL accounts create organic debate and engagement.

Amplification: A New Marketing Strategy (42:32) Troy reveals SGG's most powerful tool: having hundreds of micro-influencers repost studio content simultaneously, building the studio's own social presence while reaching targeted audiences.

Troy and Mark demonstrate how understanding shifting media consumption, building authentic creator relationships, and targeting niche audiences can cut through today's marketing noise to reach a “holy grail” demographic.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Troy Paul, Mark Paul
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Troy and Mark Paul:

SGG Media: https://sggmedia.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/troy-paul-26a06198
Instagram:

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with two-time Academy Award-nominated producer Stacey Sher, the creative force behind some of Hollywood's most unconventional and influential films. From executive producing Pulp Fiction to producing Django Unchained, Out of Sight, Erin Brockovich, Get Shorty, Reality Bites, Man on the Moon, and The Hateful Eight, Stacey has built a career through her collaborations with visionary directors like Quentin Tarantino, Steven Soderbergh, and Danny DeVito. Her work demonstrates exceptional taste and the rare ability to bridge indie passion projects with mainstream success.

Lessons from a Family Crisis (09:12) Stacey opens up about her personal life during her early career, how it informed her storytelling choices, and the impact it had on her perspective of Hollywood hierarchy and loyalty.

Finding Great Material Through Unconventional Methods (16:03) Stacey reveals her mentor Lynda Obst's genius strategy of scouring "Filming in the Future" columns to identify scripts with great cast attachments, which led her to discover Reservoir Dogs and meet Quentin Tarantino.

Warren Beatty's Career-Defining Question (27:44) At age 26, Warren Beatty asked Stacey what kind of movies she wanted to make, leading to his profound advice: "Do you want to have various children or marry various men? Because that's the same commitment you need to have to the movies that you make."

The Birth of Jersey Films and Creative Freedom (28:15) How Stacey became a founding partner with Danny DeVito and Michael Shamberg, using their discretionary fund to make blind deals with emerging talent like Quentin Tarantino before he'd directed a single frame.

Hollywood's Most Beloved Collaborators (35:11) Stacey shares insights on working with industry legends: Stephen Soderbergh, Julia Roberts, George Clooney, John Travolta's generosity, and Hillary Swank's determination to use her Oscar win to get Freedom Writers made.

Django Unchained and Controversial Testing (41:03) Stacey shares the remarkable story of how Django Unchained tested similarly across demographic groups, including a screening in the Deep South.

Stacey demonstrates how authentic relationships, unwavering taste, and commitment to meaningful stories can create a lasting impact on cinema and culture.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Stacey Sher
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Nick Nunez, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Stacey Sher:
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stacey_Sher
IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0792049/
X: https://x.com/staceysher?lang=en

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with Dick Cook, the former Chairman of Walt Disney Studios known as "the filmmaker's Chairman." From his humble start as a Disneyland train operator to running one of Hollywood's most successful studios, Dick shares how his Bakersfield roots and team-oriented leadership helped deliver some of Disney's most loved and profitable films, including Finding Nemo, The Lion King, National Treasure, and Pirates of the Caribbean.

From Bakersfield to Disneyland (01:42) Dick shares how a 17-year-old with railroad experience landed a job operating Disney's steam train and monorail, setting the stage for an extraordinary career journey.

Small-Town Values in Hollywood (06:10) Growing up in Oildale, California, Dick explains how losing his father at 12 and his mother's dedication to baseball helped shape his character.

The Disruption Era (12:38) Dick discusses joining Disney during the home video and pay television revolution, when many thought it would kill the theatrical business.

Learning from Legends (17:25) Dick shares insights from working with Disney visionaries like Jeffrey Katzenberg, Michael Eisner, and Card Walker.

Convincing Eisner on Pirates (20:43) The inside story of how Dick had to sell Michael Eisner on Pirates of the Caribbean, an expensive pirate movie with an arthouse actor that became a massive franchise.

The Team Philosophy (32:33) Dick emphasizes how success came from building loyal teams and treating the movie business as "a game" - serious work that he genuinely loved doing with people he cared about.

Green-Lighting Lessons (35:54) Dick walks through his decision-making process for approving films, from budget considerations to the ancillary market.

Remembering The Alamo (37:37) A candid discussion about one of his biggest missteps, how killing the protagonist at the end of the second act doomed The Alamo, and why pre-green-light audience testing might have caught the flaw.

Friday Night Phone Calls (40:44) Dick recalls the excitement of Splash's surprising opening weekend success, when hand-calculated box office numbers seemed too good to believe.

Dick demonstrates how humility, small-town decency, and collaborative leadership can drive Hollywood success while maintaining his integrity.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share it with others. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Dick Cook
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Dick Cook:

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cook
IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1693424/bio/
LinkedIn:

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with Thunder Road Films founder Basil Iwanyk, the producer behind some of the most engaging films of the last two decades. From The Town and Sicario to the game-changing John Wick franchise, Basil's films have redefined modern action cinema while earning over $2 billion worldwide. He shares how his New Jersey roots, immigrant family values, and tireless work ethic shaped his approach to filmmaking.

Jersey Roots and the Chip on His Shoulder (02:18) Basil reveals how growing up in Teaneck, New Jersey as a first-generation American gave him the work ethic that drives his career.

Breaking Into Hollywood (06:33) Basil shares his unconventional path into the mailroom and promotion to Warner Bros executive.

Warner Bros Years and Learning the Business (13:11) Basil discusses his six-year stint as a creative executive, working on films like Ocean's Eleven, Training Day, and the infamous Wild Wild West. He credits mentors like Courtenay Valenti and Lorenzo di Bonaventura for shaping his career.

The Move to Producing (18:04) Basil shares his reasons for leaving Warner Brothers for the uncertainty of producing, first at Intermedia, where he learned international financing, then founding Thunder Road Films.

Budgeting Disasters and Hard Lessons (23:10) Basil opens up about expensive mistakes like Seventh Son and Gods of Egypt, explaining how projects can spiral from modest concepts into bloated productions.

The John Wick Phenomenon (33:36) The story of how a $15,000 script about a 75-year-old man became Keanu Reeves' career-defining franchise.

Audience Testing The Town and Sicario (41:51) Kevin and Basil share how The Town found its stride by focusing on its core audience and owning its identity as a gangster tale, and how Sicario proved that a film’s most shocking moment can become an audience favorite.

Moving Back Home and Thunder Road Books (48:37) Basil's decision to leave LA for Spring Lake, New Jersey, and open an independent bookstore as a way to give back to his community and inspire the next generation.

Basil demonstrates how authentic storytelling, a relentless work ethic, and staying true to your vision can create lasting cinema.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Basil Iwanyk
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Nick Nunez, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Basil Iwanyk:

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Iwanyk
IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0412588/
Thunder Road Films:

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

Send Kevin a Text Message

In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz welcomes director Donald Petrie, the American Film Institute Fellow whose romantic comedies have grossed hundreds of millions worldwide. From launching Julia Roberts in Mystic Pizza to directing Sandra Bullock in Miss Congeniality and pairing Jack Lemmon with Walter Matthau in Grumpy Old Men, Donald has helmed some of Hollywood's most beloved films. Donald shares how he transformed from actor to director while maintaining the family tradition of integrity and craftsmanship.

The Petrie Family Legacy (04:48) Donald reveals how his parents instilled respect for talent and collaboration, moving the family wherever his father was filming rather than using nannies. 

Discovering Julia Roberts (08:49) Three weeks before shooting Mystic Pizza, Donald found his perfect Daisy - a young actress who could be both brazen and vulnerable. He recalls the moment Julia Roberts auditioned and how he immediately knew she was the one.

Emmy Nomination at 26 (13:13) Donald discusses how directing the famous "Venus Butterfly" episode of LA Law earned him an Emmy nomination and changed his career trajectory, leading to feature film offers.

Grumpy Old Men Magic (18:16) Donald shares behind-the-scenes stories of directing Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau, including Matthau's direction philosophy and how the legendary duo grounded each other's performances.

The Test Screening Revelation (25:23) A crucial lesson from Grumpy Old Men: Donald explains how the original opening killed the comedy and why he learned to signal to audiences that "it's okay to laugh."

Miss Congeniality's Secret Formula (35:33) Donald reveals his pitch that transformed the pageant comedy.

The Power of Audience Testing (42:01) Donald advocates for test screenings, explaining how audience feedback helped him completely restructure Grumpy Old Men's opening and Miss Congeniality's ending.

Donald demonstrates how family values, collaborative spirit, and respect for the audience can create lasting entertainment. His insights into comedy directing, star discovery, and the creative process offer valuable lessons.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Donald Petrie
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Donald Petrie:

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Petrie
IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0677953/

For more information about Kevin Goetz:

Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com

Audienceology Book:

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

Send Kevin a Text Message

In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz brings together three of his top focus group moderators from Screen Engine to reveal the secrets behind their craft during the filmmaking stage of movie testing. Terri Cavanaugh (VP of Qualitative Insights), Ari Virgil-Paige (Executive VP of the Movie Group), and Aaron Feuer (VP of the Movie Group) reveal how honest audience feedback helps filmmakers perfect their vision.

What Makes Focus Groups Essential (01:43) The moderators explain why there's no substitute for hearing verbally from audiences and how focus groups add crucial nuance beyond quantitative data.

The Magic First Question (02:27) Aaron reveals the power of asking "Can you give me a word or phrase to describe what you just saw?" and how those initial responses catalyze entire conversations.

What Makes a Great Moderator (06:33) The team discusses essential qualities, including curiosity, intuition that can't be taught, and the ability to read a room while multitasking through multiple layers of observation.

The Most Important Question (14:04) Each moderator shares their approach to the one question they'd ask if limited to just one, revealing different philosophies about serving the client versus finding truth.

Dealing with Naysayers (18:51) The moderators address criticism head-on, explaining why they're advocates for the audience, not critics looking to serve their agendas.

Handling Difficult Respondents (27:29) Practical advice on managing disruptive participants, from body language techniques to knowing when to remove someone entirely.

Building Trust Quickly (30:42) Techniques for engaging audiences immediately, from working with shy kids to using strategic authenticity to create safe spaces for honest feedback.

Filmmaker Appreciation (35:12) Stories of working with receptive movie directors like Peter Farrelly, Paul Feig, Matt Damon, and the Russo Brothers, who embrace the process and see research as a valuable tool.

The Art of the Nugget (41:22) How one small audience insight can crack the code and solve major story problems, with examples of breakthrough moments that transformed films.

These moderators demonstrate that great focus group leadership combines theatrical instincts, detective curiosity, and empathy for both audiences and filmmakers. Their stories reveal the delicate balance of extracting truth while respecting the creative process.

Please leave us a review and share our podcast with others. 

Host: Kevin Goetz

Guests: Terri Cavanaugh, Ari Virgil-Paige, and Aaron Feuer

Producer: Kari Campano

Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano

Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Screen Engine: 

Website: https://www.screenengineasi.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/screen-engine-asi

Instagram:

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

Send Kevin a Text Message

In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with Michael Uslan, the originator and executive producer of the Batman and Batman-related movie universe, who turned his childhood passion for comic books into Hollywood gold. As an avid comic book collector and Batman superfan, Uslan is proof that following your passion pays off. He shares the story of his decade-long journey to bring a dark, serious Batman to the big screen after being horrified by the campy 1960s TV show.

The Origin of Michael Uslan’s Passion (07:47)
Uslan reveals his "secret origin" moment: watching the first episode of the 1966 Batman TV series and making a vow like young Bruce Wayne to someday show the world the true, dark Batman.

Ten Years of Hollywood Rejection (09:53)
From October 1979 to the first Batman movie's release, Uslan shares how he and partner Ben Melnicker faced rejection from every studio in Hollywood.

Batman's Batman (15:12)
When offered the chance to make a campy Batman movie, Uslan said no. His partner Ben called him "Batman's Batman," the character's defender who would stand by his initial vision.

Peter Guber Says Yes (16:15)
Uslan details how former 20th Century Fox president Peter Guber became the first executive excited about his dark Batman vision, leading to a nine-and-a-half-year journey to production.

Financing the Dream (22:43)
Uslan explains how he quit his job when his wife was nine months pregnant and raised money by selling project shares to his network, who invested in him, not Batman.

Comic Book Academic Pioneer (25:16)
Uslan recounts becoming the first person to teach an accredited college course on comic books at Indiana University as a Junior, leading to national publicity and a life-changing phone call from Stan Lee.

Stan Lee's Mentorship and Marvel's Debt to Batman (39:54)
Uslan shares Stan Lee's revelation that the Marvel Cinematic Universe wouldn't exist without his Batman, which proved superhero movies should focus on the person.

Tim Burton and Michael Keaton (40:58)
Uslan describes discovering Tim Burton through Pee-Wee's Big Adventure and Burton's genius decision to cast Michael Keaton, initially against Uslan's wishes.

Uslan demonstrates persistence, vision, and the courage to say no when protecting something he believed in. His journey from comic book collector to Hollywood producer offers insights into passion-driven success, handling rejection, and the importance of having people who believe in you.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.

Host: Kevin Goetz

Guest: Michael Uslan

Producer: Kari Campano

Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano

Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more info about Michael Uslan:

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mich

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with legendary producer Jerry Bruckheimer, the mastermind behind billion-dollar blockbusters, including Top Gun, Pirates of the Caribbean, Bad Boys, Beverly Hills Cop, and the television shows CSI, The Amazing Race, and Fire Country. Bruckheimer shares insights into his detailed approach to filmmaking, the power of test screenings, and what it takes to consistently deliver crowd-pleasing entertainment.

The Power of Audience Testing (01:22)

Bruckheimer emphasizes the crucial role audience research has played in his success, citing examples like Armageddon and Bad Boys: Ride or Die, which both saw significant improvements in test screening scores.

The Origins of Top Gun and Casting Tom Cruise (08:49)

Bruckheimer reveals how Top Gun almost didn't get made due to studio concerns about airplane movies, and his brilliant strategy of arranging for Tom Cruise to fly with the Blue Angels, which sealed Cruise's commitment to the project.

Learning from The Lone Ranger (18:05)

Goetz and Bruckheimer analyze why The Lone Ranger didn't connect with audiences, emphasizing how budget discussions overshadowed the creative vision and the importance of early concept testing.

F1: The Upcoming Blockbuster (24:20)

Bruckheimer details the three-year process of making F1, from convincing Formula 1 teams to participate to achieving record-breaking test screening scores.

Working with Hollywood Legends (29:22)

Bruckheimer shares personal stories about collaborating with icons like Gene Hackman, Will Smith, Eddie Murphy, and Johnny Depp.

Television Empire and The Amazing Race (40:01)

With 10 Emmy wins for The Amazing Race and over 2000 episodes across franchises like CSI and Fire Country, Bruckheimer discusses his approach to television and how he maintains the quality across multiple projects.

Over the course of the interview, Bruckheimer shares how his pursuit of perfection, genuine respect for audiences, and ability to adapt while maintaining his core philosophy, "I don't make movies for anybody but the audience," contributed to his mega success. His insights reveal the strategic thinking and collaborative spirit behind some of Hollywood's biggest franchises.

Host: Kevin Goetz

Guest: Jerry Bruckheimer

Producer: Kari Campano

Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Nick Nunez, and Kari Campano

Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Jerry Bruckheimer:

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Bruckheimer

IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000988/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jerrybruckheimer/?hl

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with Arnold Rifkin, the legendary talent agent who pioneered the concept of a total talent agency and helped build one of Hollywood's most recognizable action stars. From founding Triad Artists to leading William Morris's film division and producing blockbuster films alongside Bruce Willis, Rifkin has built careers, brokered deals, and produced films over the course of four decades. He shares candid stories about deal-making, friendship, and the business of entertainment.

Building an Agency Empire (03:21)

Rifkin discusses his sales DNA, inherited from his father, and founding an agency with Nicole David for just $1,500. He also shares the story of discovering Bruce Willis and building Triad Artists into a powerhouse before being acquired by William Morris.

Bruce Willis Partnership and Discovery (11:52)

Arnold shares Bruce's Moonlighting casting story, including his first impression, their shared speech impediment, and how Bruce's swagger and humor made him a star, despite not being a typical leading man.

The Die Hard Deal and Negotiation Mastery (19:26)

Arnold reveals the high-stakes negotiation technique he used that secured Bruce Willis $5 million for Die Hard. He also shares the Look Who's Talking voiceover deal and the Seagram's wine cooler campaign, which shed light on his deal-making prowess.

From Agent to Producer (26:57)

Rifkin explains his decision to leave agenting after 35 years, partnering with Bruce Willis to form Cheyenne Entertainment, and his spiritual transformation through Native American practices that guided this major career shift.

Bruce's Health and Honoring His Legacy (34:22)

Arnold speaks movingly about maintaining his friendship with Bruce during his health challenges, their continued Friday lunches, and plans to honor Bruce's legacy through a documentary with his new company, Incite.

Life Philosophy and Legacy (42:34)

Rifkin reflects on choosing abundance over scarcity, teaching at UCLA for 15 years, raising five children, and how true success isn't about material possessions but about the impact you make on others.

Throughout the conversation, Rifkin demonstrates the relationship-building, risk-taking, and loyalty that defined his extraordinary career. From an immigrant’s son to Hollywood power broker, his journey offers insights into deal-making, friendship, and the human side of the entertainment industry.

Host: Kevin Goetz

Guest: Arnold Rifkin

Producer: Kari Campano

Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano

Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Arnold Rifkin:

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Rifkin

IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0726476/

Incite Studios: https://www.incite-studios.com/

For more information about Ke

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com