Lily and Jacob explore the potential of cannabis becoming a substitute or cross addiction to kratom. Ryan talks to Lily about his struggles this past year relapsing on kava-kratom tonics, and escalating to other substances such as alcohol and opiates. 

Heads up, this episode's interview includes talk of suicide. Remember to dial 988 to talk get help, or text HOME to 741-741 to reach the Crisis Text Line or www.Crisistextline.org

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