Ending Human Trafficking

Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are once again joined by Chad Salitan to discuss this year’s Trafficking in Persons Report. Chad is the Deputy Senior Coordinator at the Trafficking in Persons Office of the U.S. Department of State. Chad brings knowledge on not only what the TIP Report is, but key differences in the 2019’s edition.

Key Points

Resources

192 – What is the Trafficking in Persons Report

193 – Child Institutionalization and Human Trafficking

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 206, Leveraging the Data in the Trafficking in Persons Report.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the resources that has been just tremendous to all of us who want to study the issues, so we can really make a difference on this issue is the Trafficking in Persons Report that’s released annually from the State Department. And we have talked about it a number of times on past episodes. And today we are pleased to welcome back to the show Chad, who’s going to really assist us in really diving in and in more detail on the most recent report.

Sandie [00:01:14] Yes and I’m, so excited to have Chad Salitan. He’s the Deputy Senior Coordinator, Trafficking in Persons office in Washington D.C. And when I started reading this year’s report, I knew we had to bring him back. He was on a podcast in March in podcast number 192, What is the Trafficking in Persons Report. And we immediately followed that with podcast 193, Child Institutionalization and Human Trafficking. So, Chad, welcome back.

Chad [00:01:47] Thank you for having me.

Sandie [00:01:49] So, let’s start off with what were your feelings about releasing this report? What was that one thing that you were the most excited about?

Chad [00:01:59] Oh, well this was report number nineteen for our office. So, we were very pleased to get this one out. Each year, it’s frankly a Herculean effort to produce this report over 500 pages. As you may have noticed your arms got heavy if you were carrying it. Well, we were producing a really comprehensive report this year and we’re really proud of our introduction, which covers the theme of encouraging governments to address all forms of human trafficking with a special emphasis on trafficking that takes place exclusively within the borders of the country. So, absent any transnational movement and it’s sometimes an overlooked part of the global human trafficking sites, that’s what we want to focus on this year.

Sandie [00:02:40] Well let’s talk about that because sometimes when I’m traveling internationally, I have this conversation and people feel that I’m not talking about human trafficking, that I’m talking about something else. And, so for me anybody that has been obtained or recruited through the use of force, fraud, or coercion for any purpose, sex or labor, that’s human trafficking. So, why would there be some confusion?

Chad [00:03:10] And I ever see the same confusion. I’ve been in countless meetings with foreign government officials where we initially have to start the conversation by really defining the type of vulnerable populations that we’re really looking to protect with our work. What we’re talking about is reinforced through international law though. The United Nations Palermo protocol is very clear that each state party of which there is over 170 countries that are part of it should establish a domestic law that explains the trafficking that occurs both within and between their borders. So, it’s already there in international law, and more importantly when you talk to practitioners, when you talk to the ILO, you look at global estimates it actually just suggests that traffickers exploit a majority of victims without moving them from one country to another. So, it’s a huge population of victims of vulnerable people that are not going across borders that we need to keep an eye on.

Sandie [00:04:08] So, can you give us a couple of examples?

Chad [00:04:11] Yes, of course. And I should add that we didn’t want to, of course, minimize the importance of transnational human trafficking, but we want to call attention to some of the phenomena that we are seeing that’s happening purely within borders. So, if you’re to say in Cambodia, for example, you know areas where there’s lack of jobs in rural areas you know try to find work in the tourist cities where there’s more foreign money coming in. Traffickers may exploit them in sex trafficking, underground massage parlors, karaoke bars, beer gardens, things like that. So, there was movement, but it wasn’t transnational, right? Another example, say in Ethiopia, where you see sadly traffickers deceiving parents of their children that live in areas where opportunities are scant and they’re sending their children with these traffickers unknowingly thinking that their children going to major cities to have a decent work, have living conditions, food security. The traffickers promise the families that the children will go to school receive wages for their work, but of course the reality is much different. We see even in places like the United Kingdom where gangs are forcing British children to carry drugs. And you know the UK National Crime Agency is reporting that the largest group of potential victims actually is U.K. nationals, that are being referred to the human trafficking network. So, cases like this where you see kind of things that are even more extant examples like in Yemen where you see the ongoing armed conflict and there’s of course a range of human rights violations. But of course, you have many parties that are using child soldiers, 842 verified cases in the last year of boys as young as 11 years old being forced to work in paramilitary groups. In the United States, not to leave us out, you know we have a huge problem with internal trafficking in traffickers preying on children, especially those coming fr...

Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak revisit the topic of partnerships to create a larger impact. They discuss the necessity for diverse partners and how to create successful and lasting partnerships.

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode 205, Influence Across Overlapping Networks.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak. And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Some of you know that I am also the host of a podcast called Coaching for Leaders. I’ve been hosting it just about as long as we’ve been producing and Ending Human Trafficking, it began back in 2011. And I help leaders to discover wisdom through insightful conversations. Sandie, has been a great partner on that show and that she has been a guest before and listens regularly. And recently, we decided to have Sandie back on to talk about how to really influence across overlapping networks. And as you’ve heard here on this show many times, Sandie is just so brilliant in how she engages in partnerships with organizations around the world. And recently I sat down with her and we did a detailed interview on how to really influence across overlapping networks and we’re sharing that interview here also as Episode 205. So, here is my interview with Sandie Morgan on Coaching for Leaders:

Dave [00:01:49] Sandie, I am so glad to have you back on the show.

Sandie [00:02:44] Thank you so much, Dave. I love listening to Coaching for Leaders and often share it as a resource to my friends that are trying to figure out how to lead well.

Dave [00:02:54] Well, I am so grateful to have you as a friend, first of all, and as a professional partner in so many capacities. And you and I, I don’t know if I guess we’ve said this maybe on the Ending Human Trafficking show, but we talk a lot on how to collaborate and share ideas. And you, I know, are borrowing things from Coaching for Leaders, and I am often borrowing your wisdom and expertise and thinking about partnerships and collaboration. And that’s I think the focus of our conversation today, is how can we, any of us as leaders, do a better job at this. And one thing that you run into a lot in your work as you have become known across the world really for your expertise in helping the world address this huge issue with human trafficking. And a lot of people reach out to you for advice and for mentorship. And actually, before that, maybe we should say a bit for those who don’t know about the issue of human trafficking. Could you frame it a little bit for us of what is the issue and why do you and so many people have your attention on it?

Sandie [00:03:58] Well I think human trafficking is not something new, it is old. If you go back to ancient literature you can find examples, in biblical stories think of Joseph whose brothers sold him. But in modern contemporary culture, we have now identified slavery as against basic human rights and human dignity, and so many traditional forms of labor exploitation are no longer tolerated, not just in the West but internationally. So, in 2000, the Palermo protocol identified when anyone was recruited or obtained for the purpose of slave labor or commercial sexual exploitation, they would be held accountable and prosecutable. And that the victims would be eligible to receive support. So, educating our community has been almost 20 years from an international perspective. The U.S. passed our Trafficking Victims Protection Act in 2000 and the Trafficking in Persons Report now that came out in June is the 19th report that they have produced. And it’s chronicled, the global rise to understanding by governments as well as not NGOs and other organizations communities of education and faith-based communities to understand not just how to identify and prosecute the bad guys but really a redirection to how do we prevent this and build communities that are safe for everyone.

Dave [00:05:55] There has been so much more attention given to this issue in recent years as you just mentioned, which is wonderful because the focus of the world has become more on this issue as a problem that needs to be addressed. My sense is this is created also an interesting scenario for you personally and leading the Center in that because so much more attention is being painted this issue, a lot of people reach out to you on a regular basis and say, “Hey I’d like to help, and oh, by the way, I’m going to be starting an organization to address this and to reach out to you for mentoring or advice.” That happens a lot, doesn’t it?

Sandie [00:06:33] Oh it does. And it’s actually one part of my job that I don’t like because I have to tell people, “I don’t think you should start something. I think you should become partners with someone who’s already doing something.” My sense is that there are so many nonprofits now all fighting human trafficking that the overhead alone could probably fund an anti-human trafficking program in one single country. This is not the best way to do something. And I actually remember having this conversation walking along the streets in Athens with a close friend and mentor saying, “should I start a non-profit, or work for the government, or work in education?” And I was at that time working as the coordinator for the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University and it became very clear in that conversation that the academic house was the b...

Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak further address the importance of having a trauma-informed framework in organizations, agencies, and even in communities. Asking different questions that are trauma-sensitive can allow you to better interpret behaviors and empower individuals.

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 204, Is Your Organization Trauma-Informed and Why Should It Be?

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in human trafficking. Sandie, we’ve certainly mentioned the word trauma on the show before. Today we’re going to dive in a lot more on what it means to be trauma-informed and why organizations should care about that. This is something that you’ve done a lot of thinking on yourself and then also with the partners, we’ve worked with, right?

Sandie [00:01:03] Yes. And over the last well since the semester ended, I’ve been to New York City, to the U.K. – five cities there, Washington D.C., and then took a team to Obera, Argentina. I had so many conversations with leaders, with organization leaders, government folks, and just sitting on the airplane talking to people, or in the airport waiting for your delayed flight to re-board. And over and over again trauma came up. It’s a word that people are talking about. We’ve talked in the past about adverse childhood experiences, which are part of the trauma that informs how a child develops. So, I thought let’s talk about it from more of a systems level. What about organizations and how they address preparing their staff to deal with people who have a past of trauma.

Dave [00:02:07] And I’m really curious of the folks you mentioned, where you’ve had those conversations on travel and with other partners and organizational leaders. What context is the word trauma coming up for them? What are you hearing?

Sandie [00:02:22] Well, a lot of frustration was what I was hearing. We rescue people and you know from previous podcasts I really try not to use the word rescue because you can recover someone and then it’s a long healing process. And so many of my conversations were around “we rescued them and now you know they’re not making the progress we thought”. Or and I know that this probably doesn’t sound very nice but sometimes people in the service industry and in the nonprofit world they get tired, they become disillusioned and they begin to question well if they don’t want to change, I guess I can’t do anything about that. So, they take a rather fatalistic approach, they may even begin to blame the victim. By that I mean, “well if they’re not going to do what we told them to do, then we can’t help it if we’re not getting the results.” And so, they want to know what we should do because we’re not making the progress that we wanted to make.

Dave [00:03:37] You mentioned the distinction between the word rescue and recovery, and we’ve talked about this on the podcast before that the language we use is really important as far as our mindset. When you think about language and just what we mean by trauma, there are things that come up for me when I think of the word trauma but I’m guessing that’s limited in comparison to the things that we really should be thinking about with trauma.

Sandie [00:04:05] Well and I want to distinguish between PTSD and just generalized trauma. And PTSD, we’ve talked about in the previous podcast that can be part of the trauma response that we may have. But I just want to focus on basic general trauma and how to be trauma-informed. And so in this definition, which is from the SAMHSA website, which is our Substance Abuse Mental Health Services Administration, and they have great resources I’ll put some links in the show notes, but they identify trauma as resulting from an event, a series of events, or set of circumstances experienced by an individual as physically or emotionally harmful or life-threatening with lasting adverse effects on the individual’s functioning and mental, physical, social, emotional, or spiritual well-being. So, we’re not talking just about physical abuse or just about psychological abuse, it could be anything, but if it causes a lasting effect on that person’s sense of well-being then it’s defined as trauma. And we have a significant ability to remember the feelings that we had and not necessarily remember the circumstances.

Dave [00:05:40] When trauma shows up, what does it look like?

Sandie [00:05:43] Well, and this is what becomes very frustrating for people who are working in difficult circumstances as a service provider, a law enforcement officer, a teacher, even a university teacher. It looks like difficulty following through on commitments, or avoiding meetings and other isolating behaviors, and engaging in a lot of interpersonal conflict, being really easily agitated and becoming aggressive, and often demonstrating the lack of trust and even kind of a conspiracy thing everybody’s against me- they’ve all targeted me. And then it just doesn’t make sense, but they end up in those same kinds of abusive relationships and often to completely escape that, they start using substances.

Dave [00...

Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak welcome Derek Marsh to the show again to talk about the importance of policy. Derek reveals how policy makes things explicit within the Five P Model. Policy is significant in creating a human rights focus that promotes sustainable anti-human trafficking efforts.

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 203: The Fifth P: Policy.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, the topic today, The Fifth P: Policy. There’s a fifth P?

Sandie [00:00:49] There’s a fifth P.

Dave [00:00:52] Wow.

Sandie [00:00:52] Yeah, I’m excited about it. I’m also excited that we have as our guest, the Assistant Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice.

Dave [00:00:59] We do. I don’t know how many times Derek Marsh has appeared on the show, Sandie, but I’ve lost count- it’s that many times, certainly three or four times since, and in a couple of capacities. We’re so glad to welcome back to the show Derek Marsh today. He is the assistant director of the Global Center for Women and Justice. And he was previously with the Westminster Police Department, and in 2003 he retired as Deputy Chief after more than 26 years of service. In 2004, he co-founded the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force, which you hear about often on the show. He served as the co-chair of the task force from 2004 to 2012, at which time he developed and taught courses in human trafficking locally and across the state of California, supervised human trafficking investigations, and assisted in creating anti-human trafficking DVDs for state and federal grants, and wrote and managed multiple grants and provided congressional testimony twice as an expert witness. Today, with our Global Center for Women and Justice, Derek’s work focuses on the Online Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program, grant writing, budget, and developing and providing local, national, and global outreach and training programs and opportunities for first responders and frontline workers. Derek also has a M.A. in Human Behavior and an M.B.A. In Police Management and Leadership. Derek, so glad to welcome you back to the show.

Derek [00:02:24] Well, thanks for having me back again. I appreciate it.

Sandie [00:02:26] Well, it’s good cause Derek and I just got back a few days ago from Argentina, where he was implementing all of that training knowledge that he has- training law enforcement, community leaders, along with the rest of our team. So, it’s always great to share his expertise with our Ending Human Trafficking partners.

Derek [00:02:47] It’s always great to have a chance to go global a little bit and apply what we learned here and show that it’s applicable no matter where we go.

Sandie [00:02:55] And one of the things I’ve really appreciated at the Global Center is how you have intentionally designed and really enhanced the Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate. So, since you’ve been the Assistant Director, we’ve added a labor trafficking course, which kudos to you for that. And now we’re actually in the Fall, revising the whole program. Do you want to talk about what that’s going to look like?

Derek [00:03:27] Sure. What we’re trying to do is trying to kind of mesh our courses with other courses that are being offered in the online format, so that we can be actually a concentration for other majors that are currently being offered in the online course format. So, we’re going to have five weeks and we’re going to have all of our courses work on the Five Key Model. So, we’re going to be looking at partnership, prevention, protection, prosecution, now policy as being each week an overall theme for the different topics that we’re going to be talking about and the different courses, and of course labor trafficking being the newest topic but we’re also still doing our commercial sexual exploitation of children, our human trafficking ethics, our human trafficking course, our aftercare course, all those courses contribute to our Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate. We’re looking forward to fine tuning these courses and adding more in the future.

Sandie [00:04:19] Okay. I’m excited about that. For those of you who are listening while you’re driving, when you get home please go to the Webpage and pull up the PDF of the Enhanced Collaborative Model for Human Trafficking Task Forces. This diagram that Derek has developed is color coded so that you can get an idea of the holistic nature. And it starts with a victim-centered trauma-informed approach and the partnership component is wrapped around the prevention, protection, prosecution, and policy. But our ultimate goal is to prioritize people over process. And do you want to explain your thinking in how you designed this model?

Derek [00:05:13] Sure Sandie, and I would like to say I’d love to take full credit for this on my own, and the bottom line is I’ve been working all these years on trying to represent as succinctly as I can the federal model that’s been espoused since I started getting involved in 2004 and really was created back in 2000-2001 book by the United Nations and by our federal government. So, the idea here is that the background for our Enhanced Collaborative Model has always been the victim-centered trauma-informed approach. Our victims come first, we want to make sure we don’t re-traumatize them when we find them. And so are our move from our criminal justice system, where we focus on ou...

Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by another partner, Paul Chang, to discuss Labor Trafficking. Paul is the Western Regional Anti-Human Trafficking Coordinator for the US Department of Labor in the Wage and Hour Division. Together, they discuss the nuances of labor trafficking and how DOL partnerships can help better equip your community!

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 202, The Role of the Department of Labor in Combating Human Trafficking.  

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.  

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.  

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.  

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, as we talk about often on the show, there is such an important role to play of partners across all sectors: the private sector, nonprofits, schools and universities which of course is a big part of our work as well, and then of course- government agencies. And today a perspective from one of the most important partners in U.S. government in combating trafficking and I’m so excited 

If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to subscribe or rate the podcast on iTunes by clicking here. Click here for FAQs about podcasts and how to subscribe.

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Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 202, Engage Together: A Model for Collaboration.  

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.  

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.  

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.  

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And Sandie, we’re all about getting together and collaborating, right?  

Sandie [00:00:51] That’s right.  

Dave [00:00:51] The P for partnership and today’s guest is going to be just yet another conversation of just the power of doing that. I’m so glad to welcome Alana Flora today from the Alliance for Freedom, Restoration, and Justice. She is the chief 

For episode 200, Dave Stachowiak and Dr. Sandie Morgan interview Dr. Harriet Hill. Harriet is the program director for the Trauma Healing Institute at American Bible Society and is one of the authors of Healing the Wounds of Trauma.  Together they discuss the globally accessible materials and training from the Trauma Healing Institute that gives professionals, church leaders, and ordinary people the skills to help others heal from trauma.

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 200, Trauma Healing Institute.  

Production Credits [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.  

Dave [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.  

Sandie [00:00:33] And my name is Sandie Morgan.  

Dave [00:00:35] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, two hundred episodes in!  

Sandie [00:00:46] I can’t believe it.  

Dave [00:00:47] Ya, I know it’s amazing.  

Sandie [00:00:48] It was your idea!  

Dave [00:00:51] It was initially my idea, but you very quickly jumped on and were the catalyst for getting this message out.  

Sandie [00:00:57] Dave, your kind of overstating what a good person I am because I did not quickly jump on. I was not a believer at the beginning. You were the persistent professional and you’re the reason we’re on episode number 200. So, I just want to publicly say thank you.  

Dave [00:01:14] Well, you’re ...

Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak reveal a new screening toolkit to help identify individuals that may be at risk for current, former, or future trafficking. Dr. Morgan discusses how beneficial this tool can be and how it should be used to effectively identify and help human trafficking victims. 

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 199, A Human Trafficking Screening Toolkit.  

Production Credits [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.  

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.  

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.  

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the invitations we make at the end of almost every episode is for folks to reach out to us at [email protected] with questions and comments about the show or things that have 

Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Belinda Bauman. She is the founder of One Million Thumbprints and the author of the book, Brave Souls: Experiencing the Audacious Power of Empathy. Belinda shares her powerful story on what true empathy means and how we should be relating it to gender-based violence.

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at [email protected].

Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 198: Belinda Bauman: How Does Empathy Change Our Work?  

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.  

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.  

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.  

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the skills to make a difference pretty much anywhere is the skill of empathy, right?  

Sandie [00:00:52] That’s right.  

Dave [00:00:53] Today, our guest is someone who has not only served the world so well on working against trafficking but also is going to bring us a fantastic perspective on the importance and the power of empathy. I’m so glad to welcome to the 

Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Dr. Donna Hughes to discuss the four different legal approaches to prostitution and their impacts on society. Dr. Hughes is the founder and editor-in-chief of Dignity: A Journal on Sexual Exploitation and Violence. She shares her years of experience on this highly debated topic to better inform our community.

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 197, Legalization or Decriminalization: What Does it All Mean?  

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.  

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.  

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.  

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, your work has really just built relationships and connections and partnerships around the globe, and today we’re so glad to be able to dive in on that first piece. We talk about in every introduction, studying the issues, and being able to bring a voice to who really just has tremendous expertise in this area. We are thrilled to welcome Dr. Donna Hughes. She is a professor and holds the Eleanor M. and Oscar M. Carlson Endowed Chair in women’s studies. She has a joint appointment with Gender and Women’s Studies and Criminology and Criminal Justice. She’s the founder and editor in chief of Dignity: A Journal on Sexual Exploitation and Violence. Donna, we’re so glad to welcome you to the show.  

Donna [00:01:29] I’m really thrilled to be here.  

Sandie [00:01:31] It’s an important topic and I would love to talk about a lot of your work, especially if people have not found Dignity: A Journal on Sexual Exploitation and Violence. We’ll have a link to that in our show notes.  

Donna [00:01:46] Thank you.  

Sandie [00:01:46] And Dr. Hughes really digs deep on these issues, but today we want to talk about a growing discussion or debate in our community about Legalization or Decriminalization: What Does it all Mean? So, can you kind of give us a primer on legalization and decriminalization with regards to prostitution and human trafficking?  

Donna [00:02:14] OK, there are four legal approaches to prostitution and all of them have a different impact on sex trafficking. The first is the one that in the United States people are most familiar with and that’s criminalization because, except for a few counties in Nevada, all states in the United States have criminalized prostitution. And what that means, is that everyone involved in prostitution whether it be prostituted woman, the sex buyer, the pimp or the trafficker, or the brothel keeper, all of those people are criminalized. It’s really a prohibitionist model. One of the other models is legalization. And you hear a lot of people saying, “well why don’t we just legalize it?” Which I can talk a little bit about why that’s not a good idea in a moment, but what legalization means is that of course you remove the criminal penalties and you turn it into a business where you have regulations. For example, where you’re allowed to have a brothel, what time it’s allowed to be open, you know those kinds of things. And the women would be taxed, and the brothel keeper would be taxed. And it really turns it into sex work rather than prostitution. And the pimps who we normally know are really often quite unsavory characters and quite cruel, are turned in to business managers. And that is the model that exists in the Netherlands and in Germany and a few other places. Another of the models that you mentioned is called decriminalization. And decriminalization means that you remove all criminal penalties for any of the acts involved in prostitution or pimping or brothel keeping. You remove all of the penalties,