Endurance Planet

Julie Moss is a Ironman triathlon legend whose 1982 crawl to the finish at the Ironman World Championships made sport history and inspired countless athletes to do a triathlon. Julie’s new memoir, Crawl of Fame: Fifteen Feet That Created an Ironman Triathlon Legend, is now available to the public and it is a very exciting and insightful read that dives into Julie’s personal story and her journey to finding purpose through triathlon. On this episode we chat with this incredible athlete who’s been racing triathlon ever since that fateful February day in Kona, Hawaii, most recently competing in the Ironman 70.3 World Championships in Nice, France. We hear all about her career in triathlon, motivation, the spiritual connection in racing, and also how Julie now trains as a masters athlete.

What we discuss:

Hello! I was hoping you could speak a little to the theory of breaking up long runs for marathoners and ultrarunners. Here’s some context: I am training for a couple of 50 milers this year and hopefully building toward a 100 miler the year after and have heard a few interviews with Camille Herron and some other ultra runners. In those interviews they talked about breaking up a long run in to morning and afternoon sessions, and how for them, they contribute it to their success and lack of injury in the sport. I am curious about a couple of things:

(1) Is it just as simple as breaking say a 24 mile run into a 16 mile run and an 8 mile run later? Or how is it best to split those and how much time ideally would we want in between sessions? Does 16 + 8 = 24? Or would it be more like 16 + 10 or 12 to get the same benefit from split runs?

(1b) As far as training load goes, does a split run compare to a full long run? Is there any evidence that one is “better” or more efficient than another?

(2) Is there any evidence that this helps to prevent injury? I can see both sides…if you run the long run all at once, you have more time to recover before your next session, but your form may end up suffering more in the later half of the run. If you break apart the run, you will have less overall recovery time before your next session, but theoretically you will have better form in the latter part as you will have rested in between.

I’ve been battling an ongoing hamstring issue the past year (finally doing some PT to help strengthen and learn to fire the glutes more), and was wondering if this approach may help in that process by splitting up stress of a long run on my hamstring in to smaller segments. I would like to perhaps experiment with a split long run here or there, but was curious as to your take on its effectiveness. I have a little bit of an issue convincing my ego that 24 miles is the same as a 16 + 8 mile in terms of what I would get out of it in terms of ultra training, but at the same time I don’t want to reject it completely because I am too “proud” to split up runs (and not see those longer runs appear on my Garmin…psychologically for me its a confidence booster going into an ultra) when in reality it may be more beneficial down the road. Help?

Sending much love out to all that you do. I’ve been listening since the original guy started podcasting this show. I’ve missed very few episodes since then. I appreciate Lucho’s and your thoughtful answering of the variety of questions you receive and also just your conversations with each other. I can’t begin to tell you how much education y’all have provided.

I’ve had a million questions or requests for points of clarification over the years but this is my first time writing in with any of them. Fortunately most of the questions were eventually answered or they were forgotten! Feel free to choose all, some, or none of these to answer!

First my background (only if you need it for the question(s):

Mid-60s male

Triathlon for more than a decade

Done over 10 Ironman races (usually in top 25% of age group but never a Kona qualifier)

Have probably overemphasized zone 2 and MAF training at the expense of high end speed. (Not probably, most certainly!)

The Questions that i have not heard answers for:

There have been previous questions about marathon pace, training pace, etc. How would you determine what your “race pace” and your “training pace” should be when training for something like the run on an Ironman or 70.3? Is there a resource or table or calculator or something to put someone in the ballpark? With training, would you emphasize HR or perceived effort instead of actual pace?

I’ve heard you talk about pulling the plug on a run interval/track workout when you stopped hitting target times. Are there benefits (such as mental toughness) for continuing the workout even when you miss your pace? And how does this apply to a swim workout? Shouldn’t you finish the swim anyway? (Back in my competitive swimming days, if we missed the interval we just stopped getting rest but had to keep going until we finished the set.)

During a longer run my range of motion gradually declines. (God help me if my shoes become untied!) Would it be smart to stretch and/or do dynamic movements? It seems like stretching is not the way to go but maybe something like butt kicks and knee slaps would. Would that improve or revive the run?

On this episode we’re joined by two legends of endurance sport, Dr. Phil Maffetone and six-time Ironman World Champion Mark Allen. Mark had a 15-year professional triathlon career in which he was coached by Phil starting in the 1980s. Working with Phil led to Mark discover the MAF Method, which he now uses for athletes he coaches at Mark Allen Coaching. Mark is also starting a new project called 1989thestory.com consisting of 10 stories that will be written by he and Dave Scott about the year leading up to their 1989 classic battle.

On this show we talk all about the benefits to hiring a coach, using the MAF Method, and also some great stories from Mark and Phil about the “good ol’ days.”

Note: Tawnee and Lucho differ slightly from strict MAF in some ways. What they present in this podcast is based on their years of experience coaching athletes and seeing how these protocols play out in the real world. You can read Dr. Maffetone’s book to get the pure MAF details.

Welcome to episode 9 of Holistic Performance Nutrition featuring Coach Tawnee and Julie McCloskey, a certified holistic nutrition coach who you can find over at wildandwell.fit.

Quercetin phytosome® in triathlon athletes: a pilot registry study.

I really enjoy your podcast. I do wonder though how it’s always assumed that vegans are more likely to require supplements than omnivorous people. As a vegan it’s tiresome. So if there are stats I’m not aware of I would be open to hearing about it. I follow so many plant-based athletes and nutrition gurus that it’s jarring to hear vegans referred to as deficient in vitamins or minerals due to diet. 

Hi EP Team! It’s Mary from Carbondale, CO – I’ve been enjoying listening to Lucho on ATC and liking the new HPN podcasts too!

I have a topic that I’d love to hear about on HPN at some point down the road – fats and oils! I know we’ve pretty much covered it before, and I’m a fan of healthy fats for sure. I use ghee or avocado oil for high-heat cooking, and coconut oil (“organic unrefined cold-pressed virgin”, kind of hilarious) or EVOO or grass-fed butter for stuff under about 350 degrees. I see canola oil and sunflower oil in just about everything, especially dressings and even some of the nut milks that I thought would be good for coffee (I don’t seem to do cup-full amounts of dairy very well). I was liking this oat milk for coffee that foamed nicely because, latte snobbery, but it says it has “rapeseed oil” in it – is that like canola? I think the upshot is that anything processed, stay away from or have less of. Is canola oil really that bad? If there’s any science about fat and oil consumption we should know (like, is there a “worst” time to have them as it relates to exercise), or any other reminders for the audience or stuff I mentioned above that’s not quite right, I’d love to hear it!

Hey Lucho and Tawnee!

I have been listening to Endurance Planet from the beginning and I am still stoked and educated by every podcast. Awesome work.

I am a 40 year old ultra-endurance-running-junkie living on a small island in the Caribbean. I have been running for 20 years and have done everything from 5k’s to hundred mile runs,  but I have mostly been ultra-centric. I always spend a part of my year, about three months, focused on speed, and then move into training for ultras for the rest of the year. I often follow a Jack Daniels Plan for speed and then one of his marathon plans for ultras.

I have done loads of MAF effort training. I like to run between 40-60 miles a week. Peaking around 80-mile weeks.

I do lots of strength work-4 days a week(because I love it). All my strength work is body weight or done with a weighted back pack. No machines and no dumbbells. (Except for leg extensions.) I do a push day, pull day, legs twice a week and a core day. I also add in some skill practice-handstands, dragon flags, l-sits and human flags.

So, since turning 40 I have set the goal to run faster and stronger in my forties and try for personal records in all distances. 100 mile, 50 mile, marathon, half-marathon, 10K, 5K and one mile.

This weekend I will try for a PR at the 50 mile distance at the Ice Age Trail 50 mile. Need to go under 8:00 hours.

Next, I want to train to PR at the 1- mile distance. The goal is below 5 minutes.

Here’s the questions:

How should I structure a week, month, block to run my fastest mile?

What would be your top five leg exercises to get faster, stronger for a mile?

Thanks for years of motivation and education.

I’m 60 years old and have been doing triathlons and marathons since my early 20s.  The past 5 years I’ve been on a racing team, and competing mostly in road races ranging in 5k to marathon distance.  I’ve also added in a few ultras along the way and most of them went very well. I completed an Ironman 10 years ago, and have stuck to Spring and Olympic distance since then.  I’m always on the podium when I do them, and last summer managed to get the Masters Award for a series (the only tri’s I did). I’m also a running coach and have coached quite a few swimmers over the years – fitness is a huge part of my life.

Currently I find myself at a crossroads and I’m simply looking for some ideas, and I know you guys have a lot of them!  I finally accomplished a goal I’ve been chasing for years this past June, which was to finish 1st place in my age group in the local Grand Prix in Jacksonville, FL,  which is a year long series of races of every distance. I worked very hard for it, and after chasing it for so long, I find myself at a bit of a loss. Knowing I was probably going to accomplish my long term goal this year, I decided to do something for myself, which may sound strange, but I finally scheduled and got an abdominoplasty. This basically tightened the ab muscles which had separated due to pregnancy, and got rid of the excess skin than no amount of ab work could fix.  The down side is a very long recovery before I can get back to my normal Type A self.

I’ve already pushed the envelope a bit when it comes to recovery, but I’m trying very hard to take it easy.  I have a husband who constantly reminds me to do so, and doesn’t expect much of anything from me till I heal.  I had the surgery June 24th, and I’m currently walking around 3 miles a day at about an 18 minute mile pace. This has been harder than I expected as my stomach is still extremely tight, and I try not to use my abs for much of anything.

So…., I haven’t even thought much about when I can run again, but I’m wondering about my approach when I do.  I truly believe in taking my slow runs slow, and then doing speed, tempo, etc, on other days. (Most of the people I run with are always running faster than me, but then I beat them when we race.)  I’m toying with the idea of doing the MAF method when I start back to running, although I have some difficulty with the heart rates. My resting heart rate is high 40s, and even in a 5K when I’m pushing hard, it rarely goes above 155.

The other thing is I have no goals for the future which feels very odd.  I haven’t done much tri training the last few years simply because I got bored with it.  I’ve considered getting back into it and trying to make it to Nationals (I could have gone this year if not for the surgery.)  I’ve also considered doing something really different and focusing on very short distances “a la Lucho” just because I’m terrible at them.  I also do some kayak racing occasionally (not very accomplished in it since I only do it occasionally), so that’s another thought. Just looking for ideas here!

If you have any thoughts, I’d love to hear them.  I’m retired now, so I have lots of time to train and a husband who will do most things with me. (He doesn’t do speed work, but he’s a good runner and kayaker, which we always do together.)

I was recently diagnosed with Achilles bursitis and given some PT exercises and prescribed rest.

The injury occurred after I raced Chattanooga Ironman 70.3. My shoe got wet and I think it rubbed the bursa to an inflamed status.

I am registered for my first full this year at Ironman Florida. The race is on Nov. 2 and I’m afraid I won’t heal in time. My PT said I should be fine but I feel impending doom!  I can swim and bike without pain but running does irritate the bursa.

Should I look to transfer my race to a 70.3 and just accept the facts? I don’t want to wait too long and have all of the decent races fill up and be out a big chunk of money.

Step Frequency Training Improves Running Economy in Well-Trained Female Runners

The purpose of this study was to determine whether a short training program to increase step frequency to approximately 180 s·min in well-trained female runners who had step frequencies likely to be suboptimal (176 s·min) would elicit improvements in RE. An additional aim of the study was to see whether a short training program could be effective in learning to run with a higher step frequency.

Variables that affect RE: hip joint angle, knee angle, step length, and step frequency.

Tartaruga et al. (43) found that 28% of the variability in RE could be explained by step frequency.

It seems that an optimal (i.e., most economical) step frequency of approximately 180 s·min21 is observed in elite distance runners.

de Ruiter et al. (38) found that both novice and trained runners self-selected stride frequencies that were, respectively, 9% and 3% lower than optimal.

Numerous studies have noted that spatiotemporal gait parameters affect RE.

What they did:

22 Female runners who had (a) a 5-km personal record time between 17 and 22 minutes within the last year; (b) been running regularly for at least 5 years; and (c) a current step frequency ,176 s·min21 were recruited for this study.

Experimental and control groups ran on a treadmill for 15 minutes for 10 consecutive days. The experimental group received step frequency training while the control group received no step training and ran at their preferred step rate. Before and after the 10-day training program, RE was measured at 2 velocities (3.4 and 3.8 m·s), and the groups were compared.

Before running, the foot switch was attached, and the metronome was set to 180 b·min and used to help subjects run at this step frequency. The foot switch equipped data acquisition system provided real-time step frequencies, and the subjects were cued if they needed to increase or decrease step frequency. Subjects were encouraged to remember each training session and try to replicate the 180 s·min during daily training runs that took place after the treadmill training session.

3.4 m·s is 7:53 mile pace (4:54 km) and 3.8 m·s is 7:04 pace (4:23 km).

Results:

I am a 28 year old male and have been a triathlete for 5 years. I grew up a swimmer, then packed on weight (good and bad) to play football in college. I’ve since lost the weight and am in good fitness overall. I specialize at the swim and bike as a result of my years of swimming and weight training, but my run is definitely my weak link.

I swam from about 5-17 years old and did very few sports that involved running before high school, leading me to think that maybe I’ve just not developed my CNS enough for my running to reach the same level as my swim and bike. I happen to live next to a beautiful and long beach and plenty of cross country trails. Do you think that it would be worth the time to do a run every other week on the sand or trails to try and stimulate my brain to muscle connection more? Or would I be better off using that time for a quality session at the track?

Typically I do a long run on the weekend, 1 recovery run, 1 track workout and 1 aerobic run per week. Maybe I swap my recovery run with an easy beach or trail run? I don’t swim often, and my bike structure roughly mimics the run.

Also, if I’m training purely for sprints and Olympic do I even need a “long” bike and run? I tend to keep those long efforts at 2-3 hours at most during sprint/olympic training seasons.

I have been struggling to find a good method to run with my partner when there is a significant speed difference between us (6:30 min/mi vs 10 min/mile).  I am curious if you guys have any suggestions for ways to run together where we can both get a good workout in. I bit more important info. My partner has a tough time running alone due to anxiety and although I regularly encourage her to train with others, she has not found any friends that she is comfortable running with since we have lived together.

I saw a youtube video recommending a two nose in two mouth out belly breathing while running. Any thoughts? I do 3 miles technical trail on Tues, either 6 200m sprint intervals or 6 100m hill repeats on Wed, 4-5 miles on Friday and 8to -10 miles on Sunday.( working up 13 )  Had angioplasty April 25 to clean out the artery in my right leg and am running much better. I mow 3 lawns a day Mon- Fri.I do 30 min mobility on Mon, Thurs and Sat. I’m trying to work in two days of strength work but not sure when, as I don’t like to lift the night before I run. I’ve tried to lift Sunday after my long run, but It’s tough. I’m 82. Thanks, Kieth Mason, Georgetown, TX

I am a longtime listener and have learned a lot from you guys throughout my ultra-endurance career. This question has nothing to do with any of that. I listen to all the usual health and fitness podcasts but have had a difficult time getting any real information.

My wife and I have been trying to get pregnant for about 8 months unsuccessfully. Its crazy how much we have learned about the reproductive system over that time and I am somewhat embarrassed to admit I was (am) completely clueless how to have a baby. There is so much more to it than the obvious.

My question for you ladies is what type of diet/supplements/vitamins or other protocols should we be eating/doing to put our bodies in the most fertile, primed for reproduction, state?

Our diets are not bad, not perfect but generally we eat a lot of veggies and meats from a local farm.

I am an endurance athlete, my wife not so much. Actually I’m concerned that my training is partially to blame. I have run multiple ultramarathons and tons of marathons and Spartan races over the past few years. I do feel as though my testosterone had taken a hit due to all the miles on the road. I’ve actually taken the past year off and recently feel like it’s starting to rebound. I bought a Peloton (spin bike) and started to run a little again lately as I’ve committed to an ultra Ragnar (32 miles over a day and a half, race is not until October) so my plan is to maintain fitness without compromising my health. 

Quick question, do you have any recommendations as to what type/ brand of prenatal vitamins I can take as my husband and I look towards beginning to start a family? I have the MTHFR defect so I don’t process folate well (especially the non methylated kind). I want to protect my future child from neural tube defects despite this mutation I have. Much appreciated.

There was a recent study that looked at the gut microbiome by looking at poo of successful athletes.  I was wondering if you think this is legit despite the conflicts of interest. With all we are finding out about the gut microbiome, I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that some species may aid performance if the results are to be believed.

I was initially going to ask other questions but the answers were just going to supposition.

Recent articles on this:

https://www.outsideonline.com/2399074/performance-enhancing-microbe-harvard-study

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/elite-athletes-rsquo-gut-bacteria-give-rodent-runners-a-boost/

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/25/health/microbiome-athletes-study/index.html

Hi and thanks for the great the podcast! My question is about the 20 long runs of 20 miles prior to a marathon that Lucho’s mentioned on a few previous episodes. I am working to hit 20×20 miles while training for a November marathon, and am having a blast. I look forward to planning my route each week, and enjoy having a process goal as the focus of my training block. So I was wondering if you had any guidance for the actual execution of this? I have been doing a mix of easy miles, progression runs, workouts within the long run, etc, to keep things fresh. But is there any recommended intensity? Also, is it necessary/desirable to do runs of more than 20 miles (in previous marathon buildups, I’ve done several 21-24 mile runs)? Thanks for the training inspiration and any recommendations!

This is Robert Young. We worked together back in the days of Mud & Obstacle magazine. I still edit the other magazine (Black Belt) that I did back then, but now I live in Sedona.

First, congrats on the birth of your baby! You must be so happy. Now, my question for the podcast:

I used to live at 1,200 feet in Southern California, where I would trail-run and mountain-bike even when it was in the low 90s. Not surprisingly, I drank a lot of water on the trails. Now I live at 4,500 feet in Arizona, which means it’s about 10 degrees cooler. Here, I find myself going without water on the trails. I usually go 2-3 hours on foot or on the bike, and I don’t really get thirsty. Is it a bad idea to do this? In other words, is there any potentially beneficial adaptation that takes place, or is it just stupid to dehydrate the body? Thanks!

Love the podcast! always great company for my long runs

I managed a good PB at the marathon distance at the weekend, but at around miles 20-24 i felt like i was overheating, with my skin being bright red and had to whip off the vest and dose myself with plenty of water on my front and back. it was a cloudy day with no wind and about 13 degrees C (55F) i did have caffeine bullets (100mg each) (https://www.caffeinebullet.com/) at mile 14 and 18, with fueling throughout from tailwind & Clif Bloks (no caffeine in the tailwind or Bloks).

From the start the pace felt good, had to keep slowing myself down and breathing was not labored at all

i’m 45, 5ft9″ and around 172lbs. do you think the overheating was from the caffeine, the faster pace or am i just too heavy for the pace please?

I have had heel pain since the end of January. At first, I thought it was a Plantar issue which technically I probably have a slight case of but I had someone look at it and he said I for sure have Infacalcaneal Bursitis.

The fellow who examined me said: “If you do have P.F., it’s an atypical type (inflamed only near the attachment at the calcaneus). You definitely have infracalcaneal bursitis. Your short calf and hip external rotator muscles can cause calf pain, though (through a sort of mis/overuse of the intrinsic muscles of the foot).” And then prescribed ice, calf raises, heel drops, and glute stretches.

The only change I can think of is the beginning of January I was charging some hills at night with a headlamp for 3 weeks straight with some trail running friends and I typically stand most of the day at work also.

I remember Brock you saying you have been dealing with plantar and I feel like mine is not getting better. So I was wondering if either of you has suggestions. I have tried to stay off of it as much as possible. The past 2 months I forced myself to take a break. I am getting antsy but want to get healthy.

I have been mashing my calves, doing heel drops and calf raises.

I am mainly a runner. Marathon distance. Greg White and I wanted to do CIM this December but I haven’t really done anything all year because I haven’t wanted to make it worse. I also trail run typically.

I walk in Vivo Barefoot and run in Altra and have been for a while. So I have just been hiking and keeping things mellow for now.

On the last episode, you had a question from a triathlete on strength training who’d mentioned that neither Pftzinger nor Maffetone offers much advice on strength training.

I’ve been using Daniels for my marathon training for years, and the chapter on supplemental training in the Daniels’ Running Formula book is pretty sparse, as well.

You referred him to Dave Scott, Joe Friel, or Mark Allen as good sources for triathlon training.

This has me wondering – in your opinion, who has the book on strength training for the marathon?

Still loving the show after all these years, thank you so much for what you do.

As a follow up to the MAF question at the end of Ask the Coaches episode 280. I am 58 years old and in great shape. I try to keep my heart rate at around 120 on easy days (MAF) (trail runner so some variance on hills, etc.) After listening to your answers on the show I think maybe I am one of those that need to train with a lower MAF heart rate.

I went back and looked thru my data on quite a few 5K races were sprinting at the end of the 5K my max heart rate ever is 162 with most of the races being mid 150’s. My average heart rate for the 5K would rarely be more than 145. My resting heart rate is 46.

Is 120 too high for a MAF type of scenario? This could possibly explain the lack of improvement at times? I was just chalking it up to being an old guy (LOL). If you don’t want to answer another MAF question on the show just an email answer would be great. (I know those MAF questions can be repetitive)