In this wide-ranging conversation Lewis and Gemma sit down with autistic advocates Michael James and Andy Smith to explore how Forest School can become genuinely neuro-inclusive. They trace the pair’s friendship from a LinkedIn book-review message to joint conference keynotes, then dive into masking, flow states, pathological demand avoidance (PDA) and why “structure” is more about safety-nets than rigid timetables. The guests argue for an “inside-out” approach built on acceptance, self-advocacy and playful community - whether that’s punk bands, late-night reservoir walks or Spectrum Gaming’s online meet-ups. Throughout, they challenge tokenistic “interventions”, champion learner-led practice and share concrete tactics—traffic-light social cues, natural transition markers, sensory profiles—that help everyone, not just autistic learners. It’s an honest, uplifting reminder that fun, respect and co-creation belong at the heart of outdoor education.

⏱ Chapter Timings
00 : 00 – Reservoir foxes, late-night recording & “let’s pretend we haven’t been chatting”
03 : 10 – How Michael & Andy met: a book, LinkedIn DM and conference talk
08 : 35 – Flow, masking and nature as a “reset button” for anxious brains
12 : 40 – Sensory profiles: why they’re good practice for all learners
20 : 00 – Therapy vs fun: rejecting “intervention” labels and embracing play
27 : 45 – Utopian moments: punk band Heavy Load and Forest School micro-communities
34 : 25 – Self-advocacy, choice and the power of a simple “no”
41 : 50 – PDA demystified: demand as anxiety trigger and learner-led work-arounds
50 : 20 – Interoception, empathy myths and naming feelings outdoors
1 : 16 : 05 – What next? Autistic voices in FSA training & the Spectrum Gaming project

🌲 Keywords: Forest School inclusion, autism acceptance, learner-led practice, sensory profiles, PDA, flow states, self-advocacy, structure vs safety-nets, Spectrum Gaming, Heavy Load punk band, neurodiversity in education

🔖 Hashtags
#ForestSchool #NeuroInclusive #AutismAcceptance #LearnerLed #OutdoorEducation #SensoryAware #SelfAdvocacy #PDA #SpectrumGaming #HeavyLoad

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