In this episode I host a dialogue between Henry Shukman, British poet, Zen teacher, and author of ‘One Blade of Grass; a Zen memoir’; and John Brehm, American poet and author of ‘The Dharma of Poetry’.

Henry and John share the story of their formations as poets, compare the similarities as well as the marked differences in their backgrounds, and reveal the powerful forces that inspire the creative process.

Henry and John discuss the purpose and process of writing poetry, reflect on poetry as a means of contact with the sacred, and contrast the richness of poetry with attentional practices such as mindfulness and Zen.

Henry and John also perform and discuss several of their poems, including “Walk the Talk”, “Swifts”, “Yahrzeit”, and “Finis Ter”.

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Video version: https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep274-poetry-the-sacred-henry-shukman-john-brehm

Also available on Youtube, iTunes, & Spotify – search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.

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Topics include:

00:00 - Intro

00:56 - Henry’s early interest in poetry

03:45 - Poetry and spiritual practice

06:04 - What is it to be alive?

06:30 - Searching for the charge

06:51 - First profound experience of writing poetry

08:17 - Poetry that awakes

09:25 - John’s unliterary family background

12:00 - John’s psychedelic experiences in the 1970s

13:23 - Poetry as a way to evoke luminosity

14:37 - Contact with the sacred

15:11 - Henry reflects on John’s early life

15:57 - Henry’s unusual parents

17:23 - Inner freedom and childhood trauma

18:01 - Imagist and Tang dynasty poets

20:08 - The Beat poet and a different way of living

20:54 - Intimacy and rediscovering landscape

22:26 - Seeing beauty in the ordinary and discarded

24:41 - It’s about quality of attention

26:01 - Attracted to the neglected

29:25 - The curse of being a public poet

30:09 - No allies and no encouragement

32:01 - John’s first poetry teacher

33:08 - The audience

34:40 - Poetry only works without purpose

35:32 - Recognising the false note

36:54 - Henry’s process of composition and revision

38:24 - Great poets of the past as audience

39:43 - A R Ammons an writing for an audience

40:20 - Henry’s dream for his poetry

41:52 - The chore of mindfulness

43:09 - Remembering your True Self

43:31 - The sacred pause

44:28 - Temporary enlightenment

45:31 - Poetry is richer than mindfulness

47:28 - Beauty beyond mere mindfulness

49:28- Focusing on what you love

49:59 - Using language to go beyond language

50:54 - Autopoiesis and memetic fulfilment

53:25 - Poet as conduit

55:32 - Radical awakening

57:00 - Banishing the beautiful

58:13 - Seamus Heaney on poetry as redress

59:24 - Collective awakening of consciousness

01:00:20 - Reciprocity and post-medieval alienation

01:01:20 - Hospicing modernity

01:02:30 - Why publish poems?

01:04:27 - John reads “Walk the Talk”

01:06:03 - Reflecting on success as poets

01:09:08 - John reads “Swifts”

01:12:48 - Henry reads “Yahrzeit”

01:18:22 - Henry reads “Finis Ter”

01:19:26 - Appreciation and gratitude

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Previous episodes with Henry Shukman:

- https://www.guruviking.com/search?q=shukman

Previous episode with John Brehm:

- https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep230-the-dharma-of-poetry-john-brehm

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Find out more about Henry Shukman:

- https://henryshukman.com/

- http://thewayapp.com/

Find out more about John Brehm:

- https://www.johnbrehmpoet.com/

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For more interviews, videos, and more visit:

- https://www.guruviking.com

Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James