Face to Face Podcast

E191 | Stories That Heal: An Intimate Talk with William Paul Young

Paul Young on Return to the Shack, Death Row Friendships, and Living in the Grace of the Moment

Melinda and Cathy welcome back author Paul Young to discuss his new book, Return to the Shack (releasing October 6), describing it as a continuation rather than a sequel and noting it expands the cast into a "choir," with larger roles for Nan and the community around Mack.

Young shares how the story began through a decade-long relationship with men on death row in Nashville, inspiring questions about what happens in Mack's life 10 years after The Shack, including grief, forgiveness, justice, and facing the serial killer directly. He emphasizes staying present ("pass the salt"), how anxiety affects the body, and his shift away from trying to fix people toward being a loving presence, rejecting ideology and categorization.

The conversation also touches on trauma-informed perspectives in prison, the difference between vengeance and healing, and Young's reflections on God's kindness, wholeness, and the connection between grief and joy.

00:28 Welcome Back

02:30 The Interview Begins

03:14 Pass the Salt

06:05 Return to the Shack

07:46 Death Row Relationships

24:33 Identity & Love vs. Ideology

35:22 The Prison System & Trauma

41:56 Closing Reflections

www.immanuelinstitute.com

E190 | Lysa TerKeurst | Navigating Control and Trust

Lysa TerKeurst on Control, Anxiety, and Trusting God with the Outcome |

Melinda Wilson and Cathy Little celebrate reaching episode 190, noting the long wait and technical issues that shortened their interview with Lysa TerKeurst. TerKeurst, Proverbs 31 Ministries president and bestselling author, shares how her husband's double life led to an unwanted divorce and shaped her recent books on rejection, forgiveness, boundaries, trust, and her new release, Making Peace With What I Can't Control. She explains how anxiety and fear often drive controlling tendencies, contrasting responsibility with control and emphasizing the need to trust God with outcomes. TerKeurst offers practical steps: recognize when fear is motivating control, commit to reality, and mentally release what is outside one's control to God, while staying self-controlled and practicing surrender.

00:00 Podcast Welcome

00:28 Season Update And Milestones

01:24 Introducing Lysa TerKeurst

03:52 Conversation Begins

05:52 Lysa Story And Calling

08:17 Fear Behind Control

15:34 Trusting God With Outcomes

19:44 Responsible Vs Controlling

21:50 Practicing Surrender Daily

24:19 Release And Surrender Tools

26:40 Book Details And Release Date

29:16 Wrap Up And Farewell

https://lysaterkeurst.com/

Register for Level 1 - Immanuel Approach for Life: www.immanuelinstitute.com/for-life

The Secure Soul: Healing Through Presence, Parts Work, and God's With-ness

Therapist and psychologist of religion Dr. Alison Cook explains her work at the intersection of attachment wounds, emotional life, and how people experience God, including her training in Internal Family Systems (IFS) and her books Boundaries for Your Soul and The Secure Soul. She and discusses with us "with-ness" and presence as central to healing, contrasting quick-fix problem solving and religious bypassing with learning to be with uncomfortable parts without shame.

Cook outlines her "recognize and return" practice, the need for compassion, curiosity, and containment, and how grief and exiled emotions can feel overwhelming and may require support. She shares her personal history of panic attacks, disembodiment, and discovering IFS, plus cultural trends in parenting, psychology, and evangelical language that can reward disembodiment.

Cook promotes her latest book: The Secure Soul (released Aug 18), a family roles quiz, and an 8-minute daily devotional podcast unpacking scripture through psychology.

01:53 Introduction & Alison's Background

13:54 The Parts Framework (IFS)

17:18 Grief & the Healing Process

37:41 Christianity, Shame & Compassion

53:09 Closing & Where to Find Alison

https://www.dralisoncook.com/

Register for Level 1 - Immanuel Approach, Go to: www.immanuelinstitute.com/for-life

E188 | Susan Carson | Safe Enough to Heal: Why the Church Gets Trauma Wrong and What to Do Instead

Welcome to the Face to Face podcast and episode 188 with spiritual director and author Susan Carson. Susan tells her story of meeting Jesus at 18, later experiencing spiritual trauma, and moving into a contemplative path of prayer and inner healing. We talk about how neuroscience, Christian mystics (especially Julian of Norwich), and the biblical idea of kenosis (Philippians 2) come together in her "safe space" approach—noise-free, shame-free, and formula-free—focused on embodied, face-to-face connection. We discuss how church environments can be unsafe and harmful, why healing is low-and-slow rather than a quick fix, what it cost Susan relationally (including LGBTQIA+ convictions), and her new book releasing May 5, with more at susancarson.net.

Instagram: @susancarsonauthor YouTube: @SusanCarson Substack: @susancarsonauthor

00:00 Podcast Welcome

00:29 Episode Intro and Summer Plans

02:38 Meet Susan Carson

05:04 Her Spiritual Journey

08:17 Mystics Meet Neuroscience

12:29 Kenosis and Healing Space

16:14 Good News After Deconstruction

23:10 Church Safety and Trauma

25:47 Book Controversies and Costs

28:13 Safety and Trauma Basics

29:05 Church Culture and Safe Spaces

29:50 Leaders Doing Inner Work

31:23 The Quick Fix Myth

32:33 Contemplative Healing Journey

36:59 What Contemplative Really Means

39:22 Low and Slow Rewiring

42:40 Book Takeaways and Release Info

45:50 Thesis Origins and Farewell

47:05 Podcast Wrap Up

In episode 187, we welcome Dr. Jason Swan Clark, a professor, spiritual director, former pastor, and theologian, who recounts his traumatic childhood, coming to faith at 17, decades of church planting and pastoral leadership, a nervous breakdown at 30, and ongoing work integrating mental health and faith. Jason describes how suffering shaped his leadership, distinguishes healing from transformation, and explains Ignatian spirituality and the Spiritual Exercises, including consolation/desolation and a practical discernment process. He closes with a personal story of meeting Jesus in Gethsemane through the Exercises during COVID and shares where to find his work online. 00:00 Podcast Welcome 00:29 Episode 187 Milestone 01:14 Institute Updates 02:40 Meet Jason Swan Clark 04:25 Setting the Conversation 06:17 Jason's Origin Story 08:34 Breakdown and Calling 09:45 Waverley Abbey Vision 13:21 Trauma Survival and Escape 18:20 Workaholism as Coping 24:22 Trauma Shaping Leadership 31:10 Healing vs Transformation 34:46 Wanting More Than Healing 36:30 Healing Through Participation 40:04 Embracing the Cross 42:25 Trauma and Purpose 46:30 Ignatius and the Exercises 51:34 Discernment Made Practical 01:00:18 Freedom and Attachments 01:05:32 Gethsemane Stay Awake 01:07:24 Closing and Where to Find Jason https://www.spex.so/ https://www.jasonswanclark.org/

E186 | Paul Young | Embracing Uncertainty: Finding Truth in the Unknowing - Part 2

Paul Young (Part 2) on Prayer as Relationship, 12-Step Community, Healing vs Curing, and Return to the Shack In episode 186 (Part 2) of the Face to Face Podcast, we continue our conversation with Paul Young, discussing prayer as ongoing conversation within relationship and how spiritual practices can help but often need community to endure. We talk about honesty without fixing, and how close relationships expose areas needing healing. The conversation explores reclaiming inner wisdom, resisting church-driven codependency, and transformation from the inside out. Paul shares updates on Return to the Shack: A Journey into Redemption (releasing October 6, with a special Shack hardback including three sequel chapters) and a large-scale Shack stage musical in Germany planned for spring 2029. He also addresses living with epilepsy, seeking healing rather than curing, and using "unrighteous wealth" (platform/notoriety) shrewdly for the kingdom. 01:22 Trauma Course Plug 01:52 What Prayer Looks Like 03:43 Spiritual Practices Reframed 05:17 Bradley and AA Community 10:09 Why Community Heals 14:07 CODA and Not Fixing 17:21 Codependency and Self Trust 20:20 Poem on Voice and Boundaries 21:35 Sequel Release Plans 22:28 Musical Adaptation Update 25:10 Casting Connection Offer 25:51 Creative Process Reflections 27:06 Health and Epilepsy Journey 30:57 Unrighteous Wealth Parable 33:42 Using Platform for Kingdom 40:07 Revival and Union Talk 41:35 Podcast Farewell and Outro

E185 | Paul Young | Embracing Uncertainty: Finding Truth in the Unknowing - Part 1 We are excited to welcome back one of our favorites - Paul Young (author of The Shack) for part one of a two-episode conversation, while also sharing updates on Immanuel Approach for Life Level 1 and 2 cohorts and a Wheaton College research team studying the model's efficacy. Paul reflects on the necessity of "unknowing" as humility and openness, contrasting intellectual belief with whole-person trust and relational knowing. The discussion explores trauma and religious performance as obstacles to embodying God's goodness, emphasizing awareness of an always-present union/non-separation with God rather than earning it. Paul critiques fear-based theology and transactional faith, reframes Hebrews 11's "substance" as Jesus, and offers a practical way to interrupt panic and future-tripping by asking, "What do I know is true right now?" 00:35 Training Cohorts Update 01:15 Research Study Spotlight 01:30 Introducing Paul Young 02:21 Cloud of Unknowing 02:46 Letting Go of Certainty 05:06 Trust Beyond Head Knowledge 12:09 Union Versus Awareness 13:44 Unconditional Father Love 20:06 Trauma Shapes Theology 23:24 Gods Character Questioned 25:45 Knowing Versus Believing 31:32 Removing Barriers to Love 31:55 Untangling Dark Religion 33:44 Grief Without Losing Trust 35:33 Separation Distorts Faith 36:59 Hospital Story Faith Shame 41:31 Hebrews 11 Jesus Substance 45:03 Union Mystics And Indwelling 50:08 Eden God Never Turns Away 53:17 Agency Submission Not Control 55:04 Fear Love And Inner Work 58:41 Present Tense Stops Panic 01:00:11 Closing Thanks And Outro

Episode 184: Dr. Bob Schuchts on Healing the Whole Person, Spiritual Formation, and Bridging Catholic–Protestant Divides

On Episode 184 of the Face to Face Podcast, we welcome Dr. Bob Schuchts, founder of the John Paul II Healing Center, to discuss healing ministry from a Catholic perspective and its overlap with the Immanuel Approach. Dr. Schuchts shares his background as a longtime therapist, a pivotal spiritual encounter that led him to study many prayer modalities, and his current work offering healing and training conferences that emphasize safety, surrender to the Holy Spirit, abiding, discerning inner movements, addressing barriers, and practicing prayer ministry.

The conversation explores healing as an ongoing encounter with God's love and truth that brings wholeness and communion, the link between healing prayer and spiritual formation, the "seven deadly wounds," and how sacraments and interdenominational bridge-building relate to unity and integrity in the body of Christ.

00:29 Episode and Course Updates

01:11 Meet Dr Bob Schuchts

03:13 Bob's Healing Journey

07:15 Training and Conferences

11:59 Healing and Formation

15:50 Seven Deadly Wounds

22:19 Catholic and Protestant Bridges

24:50 Baptism and Salvation

26:10 Confession and Forgiveness

27:09 Eucharist and Real Presence

27:42 Confirmation Marriage Orders

29:14 Anointing and Healing

29:50 Sacraments Heal Roots

30:44 Bridging Denominations

35:05 Unity and Communion Boundaries

39:49 Integrity and Marriage Analogy

42:29 Healing Grace and Cooperation

44:00 Resources and Closing Thanks

Wayne Jacobson on Experiencing God's Love, Presence, and Freedom Beyond Performance | Face to Face Podcast Ep. 183

In this episode of the Face to Face Podcast, we interview author and former pastor Wayne Jacobson about moving from a transactional, performance-based faith to an experiential life rooted in God's affection, presence, and fullness. Wayne shares his background, ministry disillusionment, repeated experiences of betrayal, and how God's presence slowly meets people in pain and trauma.

He explains how a curative (not punitive) view of the atonement reshaped his view of the Father, argues that transformation comes through relational engagement with God rather than information alone, and critiques Christianity as a sin- or shame-management system. He discusses community as a gift cultivated through hospitality and friendship, points listeners to his book He Loves Me and his websites, and closes by praying for listeners to relax into the "unforced rhythms of grace."

00:26 Meet Wayne Jacobson

01:08 Level One Invitation

02:07 Trauma Course Preview

03:15 Why This Interview Matters

04:57 Wayne's Journey Begins

07:30 Betrayal and Presence

09:41 From Earning to Love

16:18 Atonement Reframed

20:16 Engagement Over Information

24:30 Belonging Before Behaving

28:00 Affection Presence Fullness

29:12 Rethinking Sin and Shame

30:29 Sin Management Trap

32:02 Righteousness as Justice

33:26 Relational Justice Through Love

35:49 God Inside Our Failures

37:08 Lifting the Legalism Veil

40:11 Unforced Rhythms of Grace

46:17 Engagement Over Doctrine

51:08 Fear of Hell and Salvation Now

53:25 Finding Real Community

58:26 Resources and Final Blessing

01:01:29 Closing Reflections and Outro

Brian Zahnd on Christian Nationalism, the Kingdom of Jesus, and a More Beautiful Christianity | Face to Face Podcast Ep. 182 In episode 182 of the podcast, Melinda interviews pastor, author, and theologian Brian Zahnd (Word of Life Church, St. Joseph, Missouri), while co-host Cathy is absent due to losing her voice and shares updates on Immanuel Institute trainings and the standalone Understanding Trauma Course. Zahnd recounts leading one congregation for 44 years, the church's early rapid growth, and a major theological recalibration that moved them toward the Christian tradition and away from politicized rezligion—costing them about 1,500 people between roughly 2004–2014—followed by healing on a 40-day Camino de Santiago pilgrimage in 2016. The conversation contrasts the kingdom of Jesus with Christian nationalism, critiques reducing "Christian" to an adjective serving political agendas, and emphasizes that discipleship requires allegiance to Christ over nation while maintaining a church culture marked by kindness amid political differences. Zahnd centers his theology on "God is like Jesus," argues Jesus reveals God as Savior rather than saving us from God, commends the historic creeds as generous guardrails, and discusses leaning into the "beautiful" as cruciform Christianity, along with his books and an upcoming release, The Unseen Realm (May 19).

02:08 Meet Brian Zahnd: Pastor, Author, Pilgrim

04:05 44 Years at One Church: Calling, Team Leadership & Generations

07:56 A Midlife Faith Shift: From Mega-Growth to Recalibrating Christianity

10:48 Critiquing America, Losing 1500 People & Finding Healing on the Camino

13:39 Kingdom of Jesus vs. Christian Nationalism: Where Allegiance Belongs

19:29 America as Nation, Empire, and "Religion" + The Discipleship Challenge

24:37 'Christian Nation' Myths, Founding Fathers & Why You Can't Baptize a Country

27:33 Global Perspective: Sweden, Trump, Team-Sport Politics & Choosing Love

33:52 Creating a Kind Church Culture Across Political Differences

35:42 Seeing God Through Jesus (Not Culture or Politics)

37:14 John's Prologue: Why Jesus Is the Clearest Revelation of God

40:35 Undoing the 'Angry God' Imagination: Jesus Doesn't Save Us From God

43:44 Creeds, Control, and the 'Heretic' Label: Keeping Christianity Generous

47:04 Making Room for Mystery: Truth, Goodness, and the Power of Beauty

51:43 Cruciform Beauty in Practice: Open Hands, Leading Without Coercion

55:20 Staying With the Church: Family, Calling, and Local Influence

57:21 Books, New Release, and Reclaiming a Non-Escapist Heaven

01:02:40 What Christ Can Bless + The 'Christian' Label + A Final Blessing

https://brianzahnd.com/