Today, Les, Jess, and Marc examine the tensions between President Trump and newly elected Pope Leo XIV after the pontiff made remarks about the war in Iran that drew a sharp public rebuke from the President and Vice President. The clash highlights a conflict as old as Western civilization itself — secular rulers and the Catholic Church have contested authority and influence since at least the Investiture Controversy of 1075. Two figures with genuinely global reach and fundamentally different sources of legitimacy are now squaring off on the world stage.

What does it mean for a sitting president to publicly clash with a religious leader who answers to no electorate? How does the Pope's unique standing — unbeholden to voters or donors — shape the dynamics of this confrontation in ways that differ from any ordinary diplomatic dispute? What negotiating leverage, if any, does Trump actually hold against the Vatican? 

Check out the answers to these questions and more in this episode of Fault Lines.

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