Welcome back to the Fintech Takes podcast. I’m Alex Johnson, joined in this episode by three guests — Steve Smith (Co-founder and CEO of Invela; former Co-founder of Finicity and Founder of the Financial Data Exchange), Todd Taylor (Co-head of Intellectual Property; Co-head of Commercial & Technology Transactions at Moore & Van Allen), and Dan Murphy (Founder of Sunset Park Advisors; former CFPB Open Banking Program Manager).

That’s right, a rare four-person episode!

And we’re digging into a question that’s been mostly overlooked in the open banking debate: not how data is shared, but who bears the risk when it is.

As banks, fintechs, and regulators sort through liability, accreditation, and third-party risk management, the lack of a shared rulebook has become increasingly clear.

The core tension: the U.S. built open banking on top of a fragmented regulatory structure and outdated third-party guidance, and everyone’s been improvising ever since.

So, what happens when something breaks … and who pays for it?

Highlights include:

Why banks are still relying on OCC Bulletin 2013-29 and interagency third-party risk management guidance to govern a 2025 data-sharing market

How Section 1033’s competition mandate at the CFPB often collides with prudential regulators’ safety-and-soundness priorities

Why the industry may need a standardized accreditation framework and transparent risk registry for third parties

How liability insurance and warranty-based risk-sharing could help balance accountability between banks and fintechs

This episode unpacks how an open-access ecosystem can evolve toward shared accountability, and why industry-led solutions like accreditation, registries, and risk transfer mechanisms may be the only viable path forward.

Thanks for listening! 

This episode was brought to you by Marqeta. Don’t sacrifice agility for stability. With Marqeta, launch payments experiences that perform at scale and flex with your business. Learn more at marqeta.com/ftt.

Sign up for Alex’s Fintech Takes newsletter for the latest insightful analysis on fintech trends, along with a heaping pile of pop culture references and copious footnotes. Every Monday and Thursday: https://workweek.com/brand/fintech-takes/

And for more exclusive insider content, don’t forget to check out my YouTube page.

Follow Todd Taylor: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/todd-taylor-37506737/

Follow Dan Murphy:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/danieljmurphy01/

For more about Steve Smith, follow Invela:

https://www.linkedin.com/company/invela-network/

Follow Alex Johnson: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJgfH47QEwbQmkQlz1V9rQA/videos

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexhjohnson

X: https://www.twitter.com/AlexH_Johnson

In the finale of our new miniseries, Vertical SaaS: Fintech Disruption by a Thousand Cuts (sponsored by our friends at Pipe), we confront the biggest questions yet, like:

How can maturing vertical SaaS companies scale without losing the obsessive focus that made them indispensable? 

Should they expand into adjacent markets, or double down on their niche?

And, as AI transforms oversight from slow, sample-based audits into continuous real-time monitoring, who will own the responsibility for keeping these systems safe?

With Luke Voiles (CEO of Pipe) as cohost, we welcome special guest Darragh Buckey (Founder and CEO of Increase – and, before that, the first employee at Stripe).

Along the way, we get candid about the capital “S” Specialization that’s making this ecosystem work: Vertical SaaS companies own the workflows, fintech partners like Pipe handle capital and risk, and infrastructure providers take on the tough, regulated money movement no one else wants to touch.

Get a front-row seat to how the “lasagna” of financial services is being rebuilt, one specialized layer at a time.

And how, if we get it right, it will serve small businesses, developers, and the broader economy far better than the systems it’s replacing.

Don’t miss this closing chapter of our Vertical SaaS: Fintech Disruption by a Thousand Cuts miniseries.

Thanks for listening! 

This episode was brought to you by Pipe. Pipe helps vertical SaaS platforms unlock fast, flexible capital, right inside their product. Learn more at pipe.com/fintechtakes.

Sign up for Alex’s Fintech Takes newsletter for the latest insightful analysis on fintech trends, along with a heaping pile of pop culture references and copious footnotes. Every Monday and Thursday: https://workweek.com/brand/fintech-takes/

And for more exclusive insider content, don’t forget to check out my YouTube page.

Follow Alex: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJgfH47QEwbQmkQlz1V9rQA/videos

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexhjohnson

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/AlexH_Johnson

Follow Luke:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/luke-voiles/

Follow Darragh:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/darragh-buckley-56096312/

Learn more about Pipe here.

Welcome back to the Fintech Takes podcast. I’m Alex Johnson, joined by Kevin Moss (Senior Advisor at Baselayer, former CRO) to help launch Facing Credit, a new series where we unpack what’s happening in lending right now.

We start with student loans. Repayment data is finally flowing back to credit bureaus after years of paused reporting (which have inflated credit scores; lenders need to recalibrate how they read risk). Meanwhile, the SAVE program’s gone, and borrowers in default could have up to 15% of their wages garnished. Around 2M people are already at risk, with more likely to follow. If federal loans move back to the private market, college access could shrink fast.

Next, open banking. Chase and Plaid agreed to a deal for paid API access, while Chase also partnered with Nova Credit to expand cash-flow underwriting. Kevin’s view is that cost recovery makes sense (as a former banker for 31 years, who’s been in fintech for 10+ years!), and there’s precedent for it, but data pricing shouldn’t stifle innovation (or become a tool to protect card economics).

Finally, big moves in mortgage land. FICO ended its long-time exclusive distribution arrangement with the credit bureaus and began selling scores directly to lenders. Equifax fired back by cutting VantageScore pricing and pledging free scores in 2026 for FICO users. Kevin sees this as the end of FICO’s monopoly and the start of real competition. Lenders have gained leverage to rethink data models, and if the bureaus play it right, they’ll win the long game.

Plus, we'll close each Facing Credit episode with our guest’s take on one trend (or observation) shaping the industry. This time: how will a slowing economy hit lending portfolios?

Tune in for Kevin’s take!

Sign up for Alex’s Fintech Takes newsletter for the latest insightful analysis on fintech trends, along with a heaping pile of pop culture references and copious footnotes. Every Monday and Thursday: https://workweek.com/brand/fintech-takes/

And for more exclusive insider content, don’t forget to check out my YouTube page.

Follow Kevin Moss:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-moss-b032163/

Follow Alex Johnson: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJgfH47QEwbQmkQlz1V9rQA/videos

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexhjohnson
X: https://www.twitter.com/AlexH_Johnson

Welcome back to our new miniseries Vertical SaaS: Fintech Disruption by a Thousand Cuts, sponsored by our friends at Pipe.

In episode 5, hosts Alex Johnson and Luke Voiles (CEO of Pipe) sit down with Lacey Ford, CMO at ABC Fitness, to unpack how vertical SaaS companies go to market (through the lens of fitness tech, of course).

ABC Fitness is a vSaaS platform focused on serving businesses in the fitness and health industry, from massive, multi-location gyms to independent personal trainers, studios, and boutiques.

Given the breadth of different businesses that ABC Fitness serves, across multiple countries, it’s easy to see just how important a strong go-to-market strategy is for the company. 

(Not to mention, gyms are becoming a third place community – one where Gen Z is driving growth, and wearables, biometrics, and AI are all raising expectations).

This is a true B2B2C motion where owners are hands on and tiny moments at the front desk (or a declined payment) are greater than the sum of their parts. 

Here’s how Lacey maps it across segments: enterprises move through consultative cycles, studios want speed with clear time to value, and coaches live in a PLG flow inside ABC Trainerize. 

Big picture, Lacey brings it home to the operating cadence: put the customer at the center, get the right people in early around a shared narrative and shared metrics, and close the loop. 

Do that, and go to market and retention become the same muscle (pun intended).

And remember to subscribe to catch our LAST episode!

Thanks for listening! 

This episode was brought to you by Pipe. Pipe helps vertical SaaS platforms unlock fast, flexible capital, right inside their product. Learn more at pipe.com/fintechtakes.

Sign up for Alex’s Fintech Takes newsletter for the latest insightful analysis on fintech trends, along with a heaping pile of pop culture references and copious footnotes. Every Monday and Thursday: https://workweek.com/brand/fintech-takes/

And for more exclusive insider content, don’t forget to check out my YouTube page.

Follow Alex: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJgfH47QEwbQmkQlz1V9rQA/videos

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexhjohnson

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/AlexH_Johnson

Follow Luke:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/luke-voiles/

Follow Lacey:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/laceyaford/

Learn more about Pipe here.

Welcome back to Not Fintech Investment Advice, where Simon Taylor and I do what we do best: talk about fintech startups we’re absolutely not giving investment advice on.

First up is EtherFi Cash, a DeFi-native credit card (from Ether.fi) that flips banking math. You load stablecoins onto the card as collateral. From there, you can either spend them directly or lock them up to borrow cash against them (earning interest on the coins you park, while borrowing at a lower rate). It’s non-custodial, meaning you’re fully responsible for your crypto, and the card itself runs on Visa through a partner. It’s over-collateralized lending dressed up as a card, and maybe regulators will end up treating it that way.

Next up is Lunos AI, an AI agent that collects invoices like a polite but relentless coworker. It reads emails, remembers context, negotiates, and learns. Today it automates AR (accounts receivable); tomorrow, it’ll be talking to AP (accounts payable) bots on the other side. Think of it as the first step toward self-driving cash flow.

Then, there’s the evocatively named Circuit & Chisel. Their XTP protocol lets AI agents pay each other per use instead of signing up for endless subscriptions. Imagine a digital assistant renting a data tool for ten seconds. It’s built by ex-Stripe and Chainlink folks who see where this is going: a future where software pays software. 

Finally, there’s Figure. Mike Cagney (of SoFi fame) successfully took his blockchain lending company public. Figure started with home-equity loans and now runs one of the largest on-chain real-world asset markets (outside of U.S. Treasuries). Its innovation lies in using blockchain to automate the costly back-office work of loan origination and trading. It’s faster, cheaper, and fully traceable (and it’s rated by the same agencies that review traditional securities).

Plus, some closing manifestations: whoever builds the MCP or the protocol that lets AR and AP AI agents talk to each other is sitting on a billion-dollar startup. Banks should treat stablecoin yield as the next interchange moment, and as for anyone touching DeFi lending … remember, the same consumer-protection laws still apply.

Sign up for Alex’s Fintech Takes newsletter for the latest insightful analysis on fintech trends, along with a heaping pile of pop culture references and copious footnotes. Every Monday and Thursday: https://workweek.com/brand/fintech-takes/

And for more exclusive insider content, don’t forget to check out my YouTube page.

Follow Simon:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sytaylor/

Substack: https://sytaylor.substack.com

Follow Alex: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJgfH47QEwbQmkQlz1V9rQA/videos

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexhjohnson

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/AlexH_Johnson

Companies featured:

https://www.ether.fi/

https://www.lunos.aI

https://circuitandchisel.com/

https://www.figure.com/

Welcome back to our new miniseries Vertical SaaS: Fintech Disruption by a Thousand Cuts, sponsored by our friends at Pipe.

In episode 4, we attempt to tackle the age-old question: build, buy, or partner? 

Hosts Alex Johnson and Luke Voiles (CEO of Pipe) sit down with A.J. Axelrod, VP Payments & Financial Services at Clio) to explore how Clio’s uniquely designed to handle the unique complexities that lawyers face every day.

Clio is a vSaaS operating system for lawyers, and A.J. (extremely) thoughtfully walks us through how Clio decided what to build, what to buy, and when to partner.

Spoiler: legal-specific finance is a different beast —every transfer has to be auditable, or you’ll have a compliance failure (and lawyers, famously, read the fine print!).

Payments started as integrations and evolved into Clio Payments, now with support for cards, ACH, wallets, QR codes, and text-to-pay, all tied into legal accounting requirements.

This episode is a front-row seat to what fintech strategy really looks like when it’s built for the people doing the work. 

Don’t miss out — subscribe to catch future episodes!

Thanks for listening! 

This episode was brought to you by Pipe. Pipe helps vertical SaaS platforms unlock fast, flexible capital, right inside their product. Learn more at pipe.com/fintechtakes.

Sign up for Alex’s Fintech Takes newsletter for the latest insightful analysis on fintech trends, along with a heaping pile of pop culture references and copious footnotes. Every Monday and Thursday: https://workweek.com/brand/fintech-takes/

And for more exclusive insider content, don’t forget to check out my YouTube page.

Follow Alex: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJgfH47QEwbQmkQlz1V9rQA/videos

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexhjohnson

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/AlexH_Johnson

Follow Luke:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/luke-voiles/

Follow A.J.:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ajaxelrod/

Learn more about Pipe here.

Welcome back to Fintech Takes. Listeners may remember my first audiobook experiment…well, we’re back, by popular demand! 

In our second ever Fintech Takes audiobook podcast episode, I take on the subject I can’t stop writing, thinking, and podcasting about (if you know, you know): gambling.

In March, I published my deep dive essay on The Biggest Threat to Consumers’ Financial Health, which is gambling. In the piece, I also explored how the rise of what I’ve previously called Speculation-as-a-Service poses a direct threat to banks, credit unions, and consumer-facing fintechs.

By August, the landscape had only accelerated. That’s when I wrote The War That Banks Don’t Know They’re Fighting, a short piece responding to the industry’s shoulder-shrugging (even as Robinhood, Coinbase, DraftKings, and others kept doubling down).

If you haven’t read the essays, you’ll hear both, start to finish (featuring stats you can’t ignore and fintech CEOs sounding more like bookies than bankers).

Plus, fresh updates on what Robinhood, Coinbase, and others are up to now, and what those moves tell us about the future of consumer finance. 

Gambling may be “winning” in the moment, but long-term, financial health is the better business to be in.

Sign up for Alex’s Fintech Takes newsletter for the latest insightful analysis on fintech trends, along with a heaping pile of pop culture references and copious footnotes. Every Monday and Thursday: https://workweek.com/brand/fintech-takes/ 

And for more exclusive insider content, don’t forget to check out my YouTube page.

Follow Alex: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJgfH47QEwbQmkQlz1V9rQA/videos

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexhjohnson

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/AlexH_Johnson

Welcome back to our new miniseries Vertical SaaS: Fintech Disruption by a Thousand Cuts, sponsored by our friends at Pipe.

In episode 3,  we dig even deeper into the fintech strategy behind embedded finance within vertical SaaS (platforms that are the IDEAL distribution channel for B2B financial products). 

But how does the process of embedding financial products within vertical SaaS platforms actually work? 

How should these platforms define their fintech strategy, sequence their roadmap, and be prepared for…what risks and challenges?

Hosts Alex Johnson and Luke Voiles (CEO of Pipe) sit down with Ethan Senturia, President of Housecall Pro (and former Chief Fintech Officer) — the perfect person to answer these questions.

Housecall Pro began with the essentials (pricing, scheduling, dispatch, invoicing) and grew into a full operating system for professionals across trades like HVAC, plumbing, electrical, cleaning, and more. 

Along the way, Ethan discovered that segmentation isn’t just about industry or company size; it’s about persona. As he learned on day one: “There is no such thing as a pro.” 

A roofer, a cleaner, and a 20-person plumbing shop each need different workflows, pricing logic, and financial tools. The fintech roadmap at Housecall Pro was built around one mantra: all money in, all money out.

Threaded throughout: the gritty reality of 140° attics, wasp nests in walls, and pros spending 80% of their day “under the sink” but 80% of their worry on spreadsheets. 

This episode is a front-row seat to what fintech strategy really looks like when it’s built for the people doing the work. Don’t miss out — and subscribe to catch future episodes.

Thanks for listening! 

This episode was brought to you by Pipe. Pipe helps vertical SaaS platforms unlock fast, flexible capital, right inside their product. Learn more at pipe.com/fintechtakes.

Sign up for Alex’s Fintech Takes newsletter for the latest insightful analysis on fintech trends, along with a heaping pile of pop culture references and copious footnotes. Every Monday and Thursday: https://workweek.com/brand/fintech-takes/

And for more exclusive insider content, don’t forget to check out my YouTube page.

Follow Alex: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJgfH47QEwbQmkQlz1V9rQA/videos

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexhjohnson

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/AlexH_Johnson

Follow Luke:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/luke-voiles/

Follow Ethan:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethansenturia/

Learn more about Pipe here.

Welcome back to Fintech Takes. I’m Alex Johnson, joined (as always) by my partner-in-recapping, Jason Mikula. 

First up: the uneasy détente in open banking is over. Jason and I haven’t had a chance to debrief on Plaid’s deal with JPMorgan Chase to pay for API access (so we do). Payments use cases remain the most expensive, Plaid is eating the fees (at least for now), and Chase looks like it’s succeeded in hobbling Pay by Bank. We unpack why Plaid did the deal, what it means for other aggregators. 

Next up, color us nostalgic; back to BaaS Island we go! The FBI is probing Evolve. The scope reportedly extends to board members (including a16z), and new details suggest international money movement in Southeast Asia (tied to a $15M pig-butchering scheme). As the saying goes, bankers almost never go to jail; will this time be any different?

Then, we turn to AI. FICO has announced a new product called a foundation model for financial services. The idea is to build smaller, domain-specific models that are cheaper, faster, and more reliable than generic LLMs, while adding predictive lift on top of existing analytics. The open questions: is this hype dressed up for Wall Street, or a clever way to squeeze extra predictive power out of structured financial datasets? And most of all: who is this really for?

Plus, in our Can’t Let It Go corner, Jason bristles about being labeled as “partisan” (in response to his response about the “Debanking” Executive Order) while I puzzle over Tether reportedly raising at a $500B valuation (the same as OpenAI, except Tether’s core product is…not getting audited and telling everyone to “just trust us.”)

Sign up for Alex’s Fintech Takes newsletter for the latest insightful analysis on fintech trends, along with a heaping pile of pop culture references and copious footnotes. Every Monday and Thursday: https://workweek.com/brand/fintech-takes/ 

And for more exclusive insider content, don’t forget to check out my YouTube page.

Follow Jason:

Newsletter: https://fintechbusinessweekly.substack.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonmikula/

Follow Alex: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJgfH47QEwbQmkQlz1V9rQA/videos

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexhjohnson
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/AlexH_Johnson

Hello, and thanks for joining us for the fourth and final episode of Cash Flow Conversations, a new miniseries sponsored by Nova Credit.

In episode 4, I sit down with Chris Hansen, GM, Cash Atlas Solutions at Nova Credit. 

Chris has probably thought more than anyone I know about how cash flow data is going to reshape the credit data and analytics ecosystem.

Our conversation hinges on a big question: what could a credit bureau built around consumer-permissioned cash flow data look like?

We dig into the three pillars of that vision (infrastructure for persistent access to on-us and off-us data, analytics that convert transaction streams into credit attributes and scores, and compliance that bridges FCRA requirements with Section 1033’s consumer-permission rules).

We also explore how consumer permissioning complicates lender workflows (while empowering consumers), the utility of real-time willingness to pay data across the lending lifecycle, and the opportunities cash flow data opens up far beyond underwriting…

That’s a wrap for Cash Flow Conversations! Thanks for listening; we hope you’ve enjoyed the journey as much as we have.

This miniseries is brought to you by Nova Credit.

Nova Credit is a credit infrastructure and analytics company that enables businesses to grow responsibly by harnessing alternative credit data. 

The company is a CRA that leverages its unique data infrastructure, compliance framework, and credit expertise to help lenders fill in the gaps that exist in traditional credit analytics. 

Deploy cash flow underwriting confidently with Nova Credit's proven platform. Check them out at www.novacredit.com.

Sign up for Alex’s Fintech Takes newsletter for the latest insightful analysis on fintech trends, along with a heaping pile of pop culture references and copious footnotes. Every Monday and Thursday: https://workweek.com/brand/fintech-takes/

And for more exclusive insider content, don’t forget to check out my YouTube page.

Follow Alex: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJgfH47QEwbQmkQlz1V9rQA/videos

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexhjohnson

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/AlexH_Johnson

Follow Chris:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishansen10/

Learn more about Nova Credit here.