Gospel Conversations podcast

This interview, hosted by Leisa Aitken, is part of our series, ‘Women as thought leaders in theology.’ It is with the brilliant and deeply pastoral Oxford based clinical psychologist, Anglican priest and theologian Reverend Dr Joanna Collicutt McGrath. We discuss her recent book, So Longeth my soul: A reader in Christian spirituality. Joanna wrote it for those needing an accessible introduction to reading the primary sources of spiritual writings through history, with excerpts from a range of profound Christian writers from 2nd to 19th century. Joanna’s interdisciplinary thinking and knowledge of church history is rich and insightful.

During this interview we explore a range of topics, including the universal themes of loss and longing, constraints that female spiritual writers in history experienced, and the topic of her second PhD; the role of the visual arts and visual imagery in understanding the scriptures. We hope you are inspired to read this superb book and so find fellowship with Christians through the ages whose souls, like ours, have longed for God.

A Reminder of our 2026 Conference

Please remember to book in your attendance to our upcoming conference day on Saturday 7th November

https://www.ac.edu.au/engage/greg-boyd-in-australia/

and also at the St James Institute

https://events.humanitix.com/end-of-progress

This is our second Breakfast with Jesus on our Camino walk - now over 600kms into it! This chat was recorded after we had climbed into the Galicia mountains and saw the awe-inspiring views from the high point of the ancient village of O Cebreiro.

So it was fitting that we discussed Psalm 8 in this context - the succinct mandate for a human centred cosmos! Our first chat covered creation-as-providence in Psalm 145 - but Psalm 8 takes this providential view of creation one huge step further and charts the role of humanity in this created order. And it is a breathtaking calling as mini-gods - or a ‘little lower than gods’ - crowned with glory and honour. Of course this leads to the epic second chapter of Hebrews which takes this Psalm as the vision for the high calling of what it means to be a human being. A vision that is only fulfilled in Jesus.

We want to capture the exploratory way we discuss the Scripture so this chat, like the last one, is unscripted and it wanders like our conversations. We pose questions - and explore possibilities. But it is all anchored around a text. And we use a theologian we like to stimulate and guide our thinking, although we don’t slavishly follow their thinking. I think this is how the Spirit wants us to work with Scripture: not as excavating the ‘right’ meaning, but rather as interpreting it into our lives and thoughts today. Hope you enjoy it.

Anne and I are walking the vast Camino path - about 800km from St Jean in France to Santiago in Spain. We thought it would be a good time to revive our ‘Breakfast with Jesus’ channel in Gospel Conversations. And rather than just me doing the talking, we have recorded this as a conversation to try to capture the reality of how we are walking and talking.

This chat is about Psalm 145. But it begins with Anne talking about some of her spiritual journey over the last few years - and how some significant physical suffering has (mysteriously) precipitated a deeper faith journey in her spirit. We also explain how we use some resources to guide our discussions - in this case the wonderful Walter Bruggemann on the Psalms. (‘The Message of the Psalms”). And we did an unscripted conversation in this talk - which captures the exploratory way we read and talk together in our morning devotions. A real conversation explores and that means it surprises, with its twists and turns and questions and alleyways. So that is what you get in this ‘talk’.

In a real way this conversation illustrates what Ben Myers talked about in his recent talk on how the Bible’s ‘inspiration’ works. According to Ben, the biblical text is not a set in concrete version of the truth but rather a divine stimulus to get us thinking and talking - which means that the modern reader experience is somehow part of the ‘inspiration’. Of course, that brings the Holy Spirit into view as always working - from the initial authorship to the modern day reading.

So our humble little conversation, with all its pauses and meanderings, is a picture of that ‘reading’ inspiration at work - on Psalm 145. We hope you join us in enjoying this little journey.

Inspiration and Scripture is a two way process - it includes our reading of scripture not just its delivery through authors. That is the fascinating perspective that Ben Myers offers in this thought provoking interview I did with him recently. It builds on Mark Strom’s recent talk on his journey through a widening perspective on what ‘Scripture’ means.

Ben begins with the opening of Erich Auerbach’s famous book on Western Literature, Mimesis. Auerbach contrasts Homer and Moses - in particular the story of Abraham in Genesis 22. He says that Moses’ narrative is deep and mysterious, in contrast to Homer which is shallower and eloquent. For Ben (and Auerbach) this suggests the unique way that Scripture works - as in invitation to the reader to enter the text and start a conversation with God about what is going on.

The picture that emerges from Ben’s ideas is really important for us today. It defies the view that Scripture is a flat text with clear and precise meaning which we are called to excavate. Rather the scripture is like a deep ocean with the surface visible but the depths hidden and attractive. So in this view our ‘reading’ is part of the inspiration process.

Enjoy this talk. Between Mark and Ben, they offer rich depth to the idea of what ‘scripture’ and ‘inspiration’ mean.

This is a talk by our beloved colleague Leisa Aitken. You will be familiar with her work on hope from previous talks. Here is her introduction to the talk.

This Talk is adapted from a paper entitled, “Responding to a crisis of hope- Gregory of Nyssa in dialogue with contemporary psychology” presented at the John Behr conference at Alphacrucis College last year. Ben Myers and I co-wrote the original paper, and I am grateful for Ben’s theological input. This version also reflects some of my further reading and thinking.

I offer it as an example in my life of the ‘So What’ question we are exploring this year in Gospel Conversations. How might the more expansive theological landscapes of the Church fathers and mothers reshape not only our understanding of God himself, but our intellectual and professional life? As a Clinical Psychologist with an academic interest in the psychology of hope, I have been reflecting on how patristic theology intersects with my own work. The content is therefore quite ‘niche’ but hopefully illustrates the ‘So What’ exercise. As Ben more eloquently puts it (as always), it is an exercise in ressourcement – returning to ancient texts to illuminate contemporary questions.

An important personal caveat is that, until recently, I have spent my Christian intellectual life in the undulating lowlands of the reformed evangelical world. It has only been in the last few years, through Tony’s encouragement via Gospel Conversations, that I began reading the towering figures of patristic theologians. I have read many of Gregory of Nyssa’s books and writings, but I am by no means an expert on his grand theological vision, which has its own assumptions, internal coherence and historical situatedness.

In drawing on those aspects of Gregory’s fourth century thought that connect to my own, I know I do not yet fully inhabit his intellectual and theological landscape. I haven’t done the full pilgrimage - it feels like I’ve been flown in to hike the last few kilometres of Everest! I may not have done the full ascent from basecamp, but I can still glimpse some of the rewards of the final view. His mountaintop concepts- epektasis, apokatastasis, the mystery of God - have provided a rich new vantage point to view my theological and psychological homelands.

I understand, for example that for many universalist theologians like Gregory (and more recently Bulgakov and Bentley Hart), the reconciling of all things in Christ is the natural consequence of other ‘basecamp’ foundational understandings of scripture and cannot be simply be ‘an option’, as I present my own position in this talk. Like many GC listeners, I am still working out which hermeneutic makes the best sense to me and how new thinking integrates with my existing frameworks. That pilgrimage itself involves quite steep and rocky terrain and will take time.

I am thankful that relationship with Jesus himself doesn’t require theological acumen or certainty on such matters, and only that I come to him as his child. On this challenging and exciting journey, I rest in that.

In churches around the world, Christians will affirm that ‘the Bible is the word of God’. But what do they mean by this? Whether they realise it or not, they are making a claim about a genre - a certain class of literature that is special and ‘inspired’. But this claim has been a stumbling block for Christians and onlookers alike. Do we really claim that all 66 books are literally true? And what does ‘true’ even mean?

This is the huge topic that we asked Mark Strom to address for us. It really is one of the ‘so what’ questions for our day and age. Mark is uniquely qualified to give us some wisdom on this because, among things, he wrote a significant book on how to read the Bible called ‘The Symphony of Scripture’. (Still readily available and if you have not got a copy - buy it). So at first we just expected him to give us a summary of the book. But he went further.

He decided to give us a story of how his relationship with the Bible - the way he interpreted what ‘scripture’ meant - developed over the years. He gives us nine different perspectives he went through. They are not ‘right or wrong’ but rather growing perspectives on the Bible, his experience of reading it, and how we should respond to it. Marvellous stuff and very very thought provoking. More than that - very wise and we can benefit from Mark’s long, and at times, torturous experience.

He used slides in the talk - if you watch on youTube you will see them spliced into the talk. If not, here they are to download.

A recent (Christian) book puts up the white flag of surrender before the insurgent world of Artificial Intelligence; ‘Intelligence is no longer a quality that marks out human beings from the rest of the world…’ So - machines can think and think better than us? Or can they? And what does this say about what it means to be a human being and what the vast Christian vision of being ‘made in the image of God’ means?

That is what I address in this talk. This year we are taking a ‘so what’ view for the Creation gospel… in other words, what are its consequences and how does it help us see the world and serve? One of our precious themes in Gospel Conversations is a high view of humanity. I have thought for years that we need to get a higher view of humanity if we are to have any chance of grasping the incarnation and indeed the whole gospel. So if we start from that mountain top - how do we view the threat of AI - and it is scary. Very scary.

As I explain in this talk my perspective is pretty unique on this particular topic for a couple of reasons. Firstly I have spent my professional career helping people ‘think’ better in the face of complex problems. So I have a lot of ideas about what ‘intelligence’ means. My consulting company spent years helping some very large clients address ‘wicked’ problems, and we pioneered design thinking on a global scale. And secondly I am now the chair of one of the most innovative tech start ups in genAI - so I have a front row seat on what it means and on the new economy that is emerging. So my views on AI come from the front line of experience not from reading articles about it.

I end up in a very different place from the quote of our friend that I began with. So our job is not to surrender in the face of AI but to discover at ever deeper levels the mystery of thought and of being human and to stand beside Shakespeare after all those years and say “What a piece of work is man - how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving; how express and admirable in action; how like an angel in apprehension; how like a god; the beauty of the world; the paragon of animals.”

I used Powerpoint slides when I first delivered this talk at the St James Institute in Sydney. Here they are if you want to download them.

Nothing is more foundational to the traditional gospel than a ‘theory of sin’. But for most of us, it is a messy topic that we have not thought about enough. Hence Christianity has all too often suggested a dark anthropology that defines humanity as ‘totally depraved’ or incapable of ‘any good thing’. This is not exactly a good place to start an evangelistic conversation!

So we need a better model of what we mean by ‘sin’.

In this interview with Rob, Tony develops a different ‘theory of sin and evil’ - one that emerged years ago mainly in conversations with Mark Strom. Mark and Tony both were deeply dissatisfied with traditional models - but felt that the ball was in our court to develop and explain an ALTERNATIVE model of sin, not just critique the old evangelical models.

This talk is based on a paper that I (Tony) wrote years ago which we upload here.

The first 20 minutes seem to be a slow start. You could skip them - but the point I make there is quite helpful. The Gospel is an argument and the critical foundation of any argument is to find the deep structures of the problem. That is what I am doing in this talk, and the opening explains why that is so important.

This is the third in Ben Myer’s wonderful series on the thinking of the early church fathers. This talk examines their view on the burning question of discipleship - what does it mean to follow Christ in how we live particularly in the public square? Ben’s first talk covered their view of salvation - and how they did not have a ‘penal substitution’ model of redemption. His second talk covered their view of the inner life - how we live righteously in our souls and thoughts. So this talk moves to the vexed place of the public square - how do Christians participate in the ‘world’ (or not).

This talk is in a sense ‘unfinished’ - as Ben says, they never got to a simple clear position and there were conflicting positions on this question. What I found illuminating and relevant to us, is that how they confronted this question varied according to the changing circumstances in which they found themselves. So our lesson would be that we have the same task - understand our circumstances and then work out how our faith should work out in today’s world.

Ben finishes with St Augustine’s ‘City of God’ where Augustine developed the theory of our ‘double citizenship’ in two very different kingdoms. And Ben laments how later centuries turned some of this thinking into forms of ‘Christian nationalism’. Finding God or the echoes of the divine in the public square is a vital concern for us all - and particularly relevant as we realise the Christ is Lord of the cosmos not just individual lives. In fact, his Lordship was expressed in very political terms for the first century church - something that Edwin Judge and Mark Strom have stressed in previous talks.

So this is challenging topic and one for which there are probably no easy answers. But Ben’s talk gives us a great perspective to think it through. This year we will be following a ‘so what’ theme in Gospel Conversations - ie what are the ‘so what's for the Creation Gospel so this talk is a great door opener for our year.

Our next talk will address the question of evangelism and how we frame the ‘creation gospel’. I will give this talk and it will focus on our ‘theory of sin’ - a vital topic. I will critique the dominant mental model of sin (or at least the one I grew up with as an evangelical) and offer what I think is a much richer and more biblical model of what this critical thing called ‘sin’ means.

Welcome to our final conversation with John Behr on Maximus. Alongside this episode you’ll find the handouts John distributed — well worth having open as you listen, as he works through them closely and the text repays careful attention.

If you haven’t already, we’d also recommend starting with the recent introductory episode, where the grand themes of this series are laid out.

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