I’d like to introduce Steve Mayfield.  We’ll talk about Mormon involvement in the Patty Hearst kidnapping case.  Steve talks about his involvment in the Patty Hearst kidnapping case.

https://youtu.be/8EkPgx_kRDE

Steve:  I was there during a very well-known case, this little kidnap case you might have heard of Patty Hearst. I wasn't an agent, but I was involved in that in the fact that I was assigned to the Berkeley Office of the FBI where the kidnapping occurred for about three or four months. Then I came back to San Francisco. I was there the day she was arrested and brought in.

...

After she was arrested, myself and other clerks spent a whole week booking in all the evidence and all the materials they picked up and I had an opportunity on two occasions to go out up sit in on the trial. And I sat a couple of rows right behind Patty and her attorney F. Lee Bailey.

GT: Oh really?

Steve:  Yes.

GT: The O.J. lawyer.

Did you know that it was a Mormon FBI agent that arrested Patty?

Steve:  The supervisor of the squad that handled bank robberies and kidnapping was a guy named Brian Wheeler, who at the time of the kidnapping was a member of the San Francisco Sunset Ward bishopric. When they divided, and made a special squad of agents just to work on that case, one of the agents was a guy named Jason Moulton. He is LDS and he is one of the agents that arrested Patty Hearst and on the CNN special, he's the FBI agent they interview on it. Jason retired about 15 years ago. [He] was the assistant special agent in charge of the FBI in Seattle.

Check out our conversation…

FBI Wanted poster. The Patty Hearst kidnapping morphed into a bank robbery where she was the robber!

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In 1992, Dr. Michael Quinn published an essay stating that women have priesthood, and have held the priesthood since 1843.  It was one of the reasons church leaders cited in excommunicating him.  This will be an interesting contrast to our conversation with Dr. Jonathan Stapley, who did not endorse the idea that women held priesthood.  Both Stapley agree that women don’t hold priesthood office, but Quinn is bolder in his claims than Stapley.

https://youtu.be/22EWuzGrQBA

Michael: Women receive priesthood when it's conferred on them in the endowment, and I think that men do too, but they've already received it. They've received it separately as young men as 12-year-olds to prepare them for the endowment. Women don't need that kind of preparation. They are already spiritually endowed.

GT: At least that is the stereotypical thinking.

Michael: That's the stereotypical view. And I'm willing to adopt that because it's convenient to help people understand this issue that women have a preparation that is separate for the endowment than men do.

From my conversation with Stapley,

Jonathan:  there's no question that men and women have equal access to the power of God. So, women are recognized healers, for example.  They participate in the healing liturgy. Women perform anointings, and they seal anointings and they heal the sick and bless for comfort from the earliest days. Joseph Smith says this is of course, entirely appropriate activity for the Relief Society sisters to participate in, any women. Every church president after that says it's fine.  So this is a manifestation of God's power. I would say that women receive liturgical authority to perform those acts, but Joseph Smith never characterizes that as priesthood.

Who do you think is right?

I asked Quinn what he thought about the Ordain Women movement.

GT:  Ok, so what do you think about Kate Kelly's movement with Ordain Women?

Michael: I understand it. I don't support it.

GT: You don't support it?

Michael: No, I understand it and I don't think it's necessary for women to be ordained to an appendage.

GT: Why not?

Michael: Women don't need an appendage to have the priesthood.

GT: They've already got the priesthood.

Michael: They've got the priesthood.

GT: But what about the idea, why couldn't a woman become a bishop? Lead a congregation?

Michael: If those who preside over the appendages of these offices, which is what the president of the church does, he's the president of the high priesthood. He could change that.

This was a fantastic conversation, and I hope you check it out!

Dr. Michael Quinn says women hold priesthood through the temple endowment.  Women have priesthood since 1843!

Don't miss our other conversations with Dr. Quinn….

188: Translation by Joseph Smith & James Strang (Quinn)

187: LDS Succession Crisis (Quinn)

186: Quinn on Hofmann (Quinn)

185: "The Church Makes No Distinction Between God & Mammon" (Quinn)

184: Would LDS Church Income Ever Support a Paid Ministry? (Quinn)

183: Are LDS Church ...

We’re continuing our discussion of the Succession Crisis. Strang was known to translate the Voree Plates. How does that compare to Book of Mormon translation process Joseph Smith did? Michael Quinn tells his beliefs about the translation process of the Book of Mormon.

https://youtu.be/ucS-FPVIdmY

GT: Do you have an opinion on the Book of Mormon?

Michael:  Yes, I believe it is written based on ur-text? I believe it's tribal history. The way the Old Testament was tribal history originally told around campfires and that the Book of Mormon is based on an actual ur-text, written ur-text, Gold plates. I believe those. But I don't think that everything in the published 1830 Book of Mormon derives from that ur-text, derives from that ur-text.  That's a German phrase: Ur-text meaning the original text. I don't believe that. I mean, there are things in there you can see as Joseph Smith's understanding of the Bible. You can see things in there that reflect attitudes of the people at the time.

James Strang was a big rival to the Brigham Young movement. He claims to have a letter from Joseph Smith putting him in charge of the LDS Church. Dr. Michael Quinn tells why he believes the letter was a forgery.

GT: So what do you think about Strang's claim?

Michael: Absolute fraud.

GT:  Really?

Michael: Oh yes.

GT: Oh Wow.  Why do you say that?

Michael:  The document itself was hand-printed.

GT: Okay.

Michael: The signature was hand-printed.

GT: Really?

Michael:  Joseph never did that. No, it's an absolute fraud.

GT: Absolute fraud.

Michael: Yeah.

GT: I know that some...

Michael: But he was a charismatic fraud, which is why people followed him because Brigham Young did not come across as charismatic even though he spoke in tongues and sang in tongues.

Check out our conversation… as well as our other conversations with Dr. Quinn!

Both Joseph Smith & James Strang translated plates. How do they compare. What are Dr. Quinn's thoughts on Book of Mormon translation?

187: LDS Succession Crisis (Quinn)

186: Quinn on Hofmann (Quinn)

185: “The Church Makes No Distinction Between God & Mammon” (Quinn)

184: Would LDS Church Income Ever Support a Paid Ministry?(Quinn)

183: Are LDS Church Revenues really $50 Billion/Year? (Quinn)

182: Michael Quinn Discusses Deseret Hemp Company (Quinn)

Dr. Michael Quinn is one of the foremost experts on the LDS Succession Crisis.  He says there were seven legitimate succession claims following the death of Joseph Smith.  In a previous interview, John Hamer said Sidney Rigdon was the best option according to canon law.  I’ll ask Quinn that question, and we’ll talk about some of the other candidates.

https://youtu.be/VG3MrSMkwQ0

Michael:  I would disagree with John Hamer that Sidney Rigdon was the most likely. He was the first publicly proposed alternative to the Quorum of the Twelve and he was voted down by the congregation that met in August of 1844. When their choice was only Sidney Rigdon or the Quorum of the Twelve, they chose the Quorum of the Twelve to continue in the Twelve's position in its place of having all this prior role administratively within Nauvoo, the headquarters of the church. And they rejected Sidney Rigdon. But the fact that he was the first publicly proposed doesn't mean that either one of them was the most likely. That was the choice that the Quorum of the Twelve and Sidney Rigdon had advertised. And this had been advertised before the Twelve was even back in Nauvoo. Most of the apostles, members of the Quorum of the Twelve were in the eastern states, and there were only one or two members in Nauvoo and two of them were wounded in and the attack on Carthage Jail.

We'll talk about several of the possibilities during the succession crisis.  Check out our conversation, and don't forget our previous episodes with Michael!

186: Quinn on Hofmann (Quinn)

185: “The Church Makes No Distinction Between God & Mammon” (Quinn)

184: Would LDS Church Income Ever Support a Paid Ministry?(Quinn)

183: Are LDS Church Revenues really $50 Billion/Year? (Quinn)

182: Michael Quinn Discusses Deseret Hemp Company (Quinn)

John Hamer lists several people with claims of succession. Dr. Michael Quinn weighs in.

Michael Quinn has been a very prominent Mormon historian since at least the 1980s.  I asked Michael if he had met Mark Hofmann, the bomber and forger.  Listen to Quinn on Hofmann!  Michael indicates that he may have inadvertently given Mark some ideas for forgeries!

https://youtu.be/VQZYS4M8JPA

GT: So he probably got some ideas for his forgeries from you.

Michael: And he may have from things I published. Yeah, because typically I would talk about things that weren't available that were central, like I published an article about the Council of Fifty minutes and the Council of Fifty's history and I commented about what I thought was in those minutes that I had not seen of the Nauvoo Council of Fifty. And so, I would do this about other documents like I wrote about the blessings that Joseph Smith, III had received from his father and that obviously was something that Mark Hofmann paid attention to.

I also asked Michael if he was worried about being targeted by bombs.

Michael: I had a friend who worked with the state attorney, U.S. attorney was in his office and this long-time friend of mine called and said, "Don't go back home, go and stay with us because no one would think of us," him and his wife. And so, he provided more than a week I think a week or two weeks of residence for me during this period.

And then he told me, "When you go back, look under your car for wires," and for years after this, following his advice, anytime I got a package I wasn't expecting, I would take it to the post office and run it through their x-ray machine to see if there were any machines in it. And so yeah, I was paranoid.

Check out our conversation!

Dr. Michael Quinn tells about his dealings with bomber and forger Mark Hofmann.  Listen to Quinn on Hofmann

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Don't forget to check out our other conversations with Michael!

185: “The Church Makes No Distinction Between God & Mammon” (Quinn)

184: Would LDS Church Income Ever Support a Paid Ministry?(Quinn)

183: Are LDS Church Revenues really $50 Billion/Year? (Quinn)

182: Michael Quinn Discusses Deseret Hemp Company (Quinn)

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There are many critics of the LDS Church’s wealth.  Is the LDS Church guilty of serving God and Mammon?  I asked Dr. Michael Quinn that question, and I think you’ll be surprised by his answer.

https://youtu.be/FNeTvrEZSIY

Michael: The accusation is there, but typically it comes from people who don't recognize that the church makes no distinction between God and Mammon. The church is a money making operation, but it plows the money into the building of the Kingdom of God on Earth, which is a Mormon phrase that most members, even disaffected ones, will recognize. A member of the church, whether former member or current member in good faith, may feel uncomfortable with this huge portfolio that involves billions of dollars a day in transactions over the computer with only one of its investment houses.

It may be [that] members of the church and devout members and certainly ex-members of the church are uncomfortable, or may be uncomfortable with the commercial real estate that produces and the commercial investments in mines and oil, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which would be fossil fuels. For people who are concerned about that. And the Church has heavily invested in fossil fuels.  Nonetheless, it's a part of building the Kingdom of God.

We’re going to talk about the City Creek Mall.  The LDS Church paid $1.5 Billion dollars to make it.  Michael Quinn says that this enormous income allows the church to spend enormous sums of money to support LDS Church growth.  It’s not just in poor countries like South America and Africa.  Quinn says that the LDS Church has deficit spending even in rich countries like England.

Michael: In 2006, the LDS Church headquarters gave a cash supplement to the church in the United Kingdom of nearly half a billion dollars, $450,000,000 and change. And that was in one year to one of the countries in which the church has had a significant presence since 1837. It is an industrial country. It is not a third world country. Its members are generally thought of as being comfortable. This is not the case in any country. Mormons can be poor even in the United States and there are poor members of the church who live on government welfare and church welfare in the United Kingdom. Well, the tithe payers in the United Kingdom couldn't pay all of their responsibilities, all of the building and the maintenance and the missionary work and everything else, the aid to the really poor that occurs in the United Kingdom. And so in one year the church gave nearly half a billion dollars. I mean, I don't know the total number, but I know it's more than 100 countries throughout the world the church is in.

In third world countries, and there are at least 50 and there could be far more than that. The church, and I have the reports to demonstrate this, is paying 90 to 95 percent of their expenses are being paid in cash from church headquarters on a year by year basis in the developing country or what in during the Cold War used to be called the third world. The church could not do this if it didn't have billions of dollars, not only of tithing, but of commercial income from for-profit businesses, which the City Creek Mall is intended to be for.

Is it true that the City Creek Mall is subsidizing churches in poor countries?

GT: So let me ask this question. I'll phrase it this way. Would it be accurate to say that the City Creek Mall, and maybe even Victoria's Secret, is subsidizing some of these buildings in Nigeria?

Michael: Without question. I mean, in the book, I lay out those that I'm aware of through the Internet. And there is a remarkable openness on the Internet to the Church's investments in a variety of areas, whether it's land where the produce is primarily going for the welfare program. But what they can't use for the welfare program would spoil if they didn't sell it to the general...

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As we saw in our last episode, the LDS Church makes perhaps $40-50 billion per year between tithing and church businesses.  Dr. Michael Quinn has noted that church members no long pay building fund, ward budget, and many other expenses due to this large income.  Is there enough income to support a paid ministry?  Is there a scriptural prohibition against paid ministers?

https://youtu.be/Io5b2kGze7s

Michael:  Even though the 19th century church frequently used the insulting phrase "hireling priests" for Catholic and Protestant ministers, the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants which maintain these "thus sayeth the Lord" documents that Joseph Smith provided during his lifetime. They provide for a paid ministry. They say the laborer is worthy of his hire and that could justify having a thorough paid ministry all the way down to the local level. However, there has always been this discomfort with providing for the living of the leadership of the church, whether it's general leadership or the local leadership.

How much money does the LDS Church spend in foreign countries?

Michael:  In 2006, the LDS Church headquarters gave a cash supplement to the church in the United Kingdom of nearly half a billion dollars, $450,000,000 and change. And that was in one year to one of the countries in which the church has had a significant presence since 1837. It is an industrial country. It is not a third world country. Its members are generally thought of as being comfortable.

Check out our conversation….

Where does the LDS Church spend its money? Could it support a paid ministry?

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In our next conversation with Dr. Michael Quinn, we’ll talk about LDS Church revenues per year.  Would you believe it is as high as $50 Billion?  Dr. Quinn breaks down how much comes from tithing and for-profit businesses, and also states how many church members pay tithing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mpe2GTeahg

Michael:  The tithing has never been 100 percent in payment. And in fact, in the 1990s, a Deseret Book publication said no more than 50 percent in the '90s, which would be a dramatic improvement over the 1920s.  But, it's always been a part, even of devout members of the church who have paid a full tithing.

...

But, the lowest level that I have reported by a member of the Presiding Bishop was 25 percent and that could be the area that it's hovering around maybe 25 to 40 percent pay full tithing. But it depends, because I've heard praise given during the Cold War. For example, I heard praise given by General Authorities for the members of the church in East Germany, which was a communist, very repressive regime that they paid 80; 80 percent of its membership paid a full tithing of what little they had.

...

So, it varies and I'm sure it varies internationally and people who are very poor give the widow's mite and this would be true of the poor in many developing countries who barely have enough money to feed themselves and their children. And yet many of them are not exempted from tithing despite that poverty and they do their best and then some succeed to pay 10 percent and still keep their kids from starving. So, I don't think we should be flippant about the fact that many people don't pay tithing.

Are LDS General Authorities expected to pay tithing?

Somebody who is a church General Authority, for example, who has no other source of income, but what the church gives him, it's still expected to pay 10 percent of that back to the church. Otherwise, and I've seen the PBO[1] reports. He is defined as a part or no tithe payer.

GT: Do they take away his temple recommend?

Michael: Right, it could happen and it wouldn't be the first time that a general authority has been threatened with being dropped from office for one reason or another.  But, in the tithing reports that I had access to from the 1890s to 1928, typically a general authority who said he was a part-tithe payer was only in that status for a year or two. And then he became a full time payer. Whether there was pressure applied, I don't know. But, sometimes it did last more than one year.

Check out our conversation...

Dr. Michael Quinn breaks down the percent of tithing and church businesses that contribute to LDS Church revenues.  Do they invest in Bitcoins?

 

[1] I believe PBO stands for Presiding Bishop’s Office.  The Presiding Bishop is in charge of church financial affairs for the entire church.

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Don't forget to check out our previous conversation where we get acquainted with Dr. Quinn and discuss the Deseret Hemp Company!

I’m really excited to have Michael Quinn on the show.  In this first episode, we will get more acquainted with him.  We will also talk about the Deseret Hemp Company.  Yes, I said Hemp!  On the ballot this fall is a proposal to legalize medical marijuana here in Utah.  Michael Quinn will talk about a church-owned company that grew hemp right here in Utah!  Will they get back in the business?

https://youtu.be/LncXcLMr3c0

Michael:  Brigham Young as church president, and for a period of time as governor established a lot of missions with an economic basis. So there was a flax mission, there was a cotton mission, which of course also caused the textile industry in Utah to grow. And then there was a hemp-growing process, although it wasn't exactly his mission, but there were general authorities who were involved in the growing of hemp and, and its use in manufacturing shirts and trousers. So that was similar. It was a similar kind of enterprise to the cotton mission that Brigham Young had established in southern Utah, but that lasted longer and it was more successful. And as far as I know, I have no evidence of anyone smoking any of the hemp.

Will the LDS Church get back in the hemp business?  Check out our conversation!

Did you know about the Deseret Hemp Company?Historian and Mystic Dr. Michael Quinn gives more details!

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In our final conversation with Sandra Tanner, we’ll talk about the Hofmann trial/plea bargain. Would she have plea-bargained? What did prosecutors tell her?

https://youtu.be/rlxglibpguQ

Sandra:  I thought it was a very curious ending to the whole thing when the prosecutors negotiated a settlement with Mark rather than having the thing go to trial. Now the question was if they took it to a trial, how many trials would there be? Because the prosecuting attorney said that if they would have gone forward, there would have been a trial on the documents, but they couldn't prove a connection from the documents to the motive for the murder. And that if they had to do the murder separate, that they were afraid they would lose, because they wouldn't be able to prove a connection for the motive to the forgery of the documents.

I talked with Stott, the prosecuting attorney about this afterwards one day, I don't remember. I ran into him at some kind of history thing and he asked me what I thought would have been their chances of a conviction if they had gone forward? I'd have gone forward because yeah, I think you could have nailed the guy on every count. Because they were convinced that there would have to be a division of the trials on the different forgeries and the murderer, that it would be hard to get the death sentence. And if you're not going to get the death sentence, then isn't it better to negotiate a settlement where he has to fess up to everything and get that cleared off the table and give him life?  Well he wasn't actually given life. It was what, 15 to life or whatever.

We will also talk about her thoughts on LDS Church leaders testifying.  Check out our conversation….

Don't forget to check out our previous conversations with Sandra!

 

180: What Does Sandra Tanner think about Biblical Forgeries? (Tanner)

179: Jerald’s Forensic Background (Tanner)

178: The Cowdery Forgery (Tanner)

177: How Jerald Tanner Identified Fake Salamander Letter (Tanner)

176: When Mark Hofmann met Sandra Tanner (Tanner)

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Sandra Tanner discusses her feelings about the plea bargain with Mark Hofmann.