This is a re-broadcast of my 2023 interview with Lynne Whitesides. She passed away from pneumonia/leukemia on July 7, 2025. We miss her.

Lynne Whitesides was the first person punished in the September Six. She shares her story of why she wasn't excommunicated, who was involved, and where she is on her spiritual journey. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/thV_CGqy3jY

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Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

First to Get Punished

Interview

GT  00:34  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm so excited to have one of the original members of the September Six. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are and where we are?

Lynne  00:45  I am Lynne Whitesides, and I was the first of the September Six.

GT  00:49  Okay.

Lynne  00:50  We are at the Utah Valley University in Provo.

GT  00:56  Right, Orem, actually.

Lynne  00:57  Are we in Provo? We're in Orem.

GT  01:00  Well, very good. I've been doing this podcast for eight years now. And this is our first time talking. You're hard to track down.

Lynne  01:11  I don't know. I'm glad to be here.

GT  01:14  Well, thanks. Well, as we look back on this, can you talk about the events? I don't know how far back it goes. Does it go back to the 80s? Or was it just really concentrated in the early 90s, that led you into trouble with Church authorities?

Lynne  01:30  Well, I can go back a little farther, even in my own [story.] But I don't know that we want to go there. I'll start with from when I moved from Chicago to Salt Lake City. And when I did that, my friend, Lorie Stromberg; do you know Lorie?

GT  01:48  A little bit. We're Facebook friends.

Lynne  01:50  Lorie said, "Why don't you volunteer for Sunstone?" And I had three little kids and my husband was doing his residency and he had gotten his residency here in Salt Lake. And I so I went down, and I volunteered to just be one of the people who helps at Sunstone. And at the end of that symposium, so that was '84, or something like that.

GT  02:12  Okay.

Lynne  02:13  Then, I think Marti Bradley had a talk with Elbert Peck and said, "We think Lynne should be the new chair of the symposium." So, they invited me to be the chair of the symposium for the next year, which I did. I mean, I did it for four years. So whatever the four years were.

GT  02:30  So, you were the leader of Sunstone?

Lynne  02:31  I was the chair of the symposium. Elbert was the editor and Daniel Rector was the publisher. And then there are [others.] At the time, her name was Marti Esplin and now her name is Marti Ashby now. She was an editor. There was a really cool crew that worked there, Connie Disney.

GT  02:49  So, this is after Peggy Fletcher's Stack.

Lynne  02:51  Yes, just right after when Elbert took over. And it was so much fun working with Elbert and Daniel. Because I had no idea how to pull a Symposium together. But Elbert, in particular, was so gracious and helpful and just kind of showed me the ropes. And by the time I was done [with] four years, I could run a symposium, so it was great.

GT  03:16  Well, it sounds like Sunstone and correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like it used to be a magazine. And it seems like Peggy was trying to get people to write for the magazine. And she started the symposium and now the symposium is the whole thing.

Lynne  03:31  Yeah.

GT  03:31  There's not that many people that read the magazine anymore.

Lynne  03:33  I don't even know. I don't follow the magazine anymore at all. I haven't been to the symposium for years, since 10 years after, and then this year. Because I have been invited to speak. But, those four years were really kind of heady because Peggy, that's what she was trying to do. And we were getting a lot of professors from BYU and the University of Utah, but also just all kinds of really interesting people.

GT  04:01  Mark Hofmann would have been one of those people.

Lynne  04:03  Yeah, that was the year before I took it over.

GT  04:07  Okay. That was the year he had made a big discovery that he announced at Sunstone, wasn't it?

Lynne  04:13  I believe it was either two or one year before, because Steve Christensen was part of Sunstone, at the time, too. And, and I had just met Steve. And then all that stuff happened with Hofmann.

GT  04:29  Yeah, well, Steve was killed in '87, I believe.[1] Right?

Lynne  04:32  Right. And by '87, I was doing the symposium. I was chairing the symposium, 1987-88-89. So four years.

GT  04:38  Did you know Steve pretty well?

Lynne  04:40  No, I was just getting to know him a little bit. And then that happened. Yeah.

GT  04:43  That's terrible. It was a terrible thing. So you didn't really know Mark Hofmann, either.

Lynne  04:47  No, not at all. I mean, I probably went to his talk or something. I had lived in Salt Lake. Then, I moved to Mexico for two years because my husband did two years of med school in Guadalajara, then went to Chicago for two years. And I had gone to Sunstone a bunch before then and then didn't during those four years, and that's when all that was going on. Then [we] moved from Chicago to Salt Lake City. And that's when I started working for them. So you see, I was in and out.

GT  05:19  Okay. And so you led Sunstone from like, '85 to '89 or so?

Lynne  05:26  Yeah, something like that. I wish I knew. I should have checked before I got here. But, yeah, I didn't lead Sunstone, but I chaired the symposium.

GT  05:34  Okay. Because you were the Lindsay Hansen Park of the day, then. Right?

Lynne  05:39  I think so. But working so closely with Elbert and Dan was super. I mean, they had so much input.

GT  05:51  Dan Wotherspoon.

Lynne  05:52  No, Dan Rector.

GT  05:54  Oh, Dan Rector.

Lynne  05:54  Dan Rector knew a lot of people because of his dad, Hartmon Rector. He was the publisher, at the time.

GT  06:02  He [Hartman] was a former general authority.

Lynne  06:03  Yeah. Well, Hartman was [a general authority] at the time.

GT  06:06  Oh at the time?

Lynne  06:06  Yeah. And then Dan knew a lot of [people.] He knew Paul Dunn. He actually knew what was going on with Paul Dunn and he confronted Paul Dunn.

GT  06:17  Oh.

Lynne  06:18  That was an interesting story if you want to hear it.

GT  06:20  We haven't gone into the Paul Dunn story.

Lynne  06:21  Yeah, we don't need to.

GT  06:22  This is great. We do tangents here.

Lynne  06:24  But we can.

GT  06:26  Give them a little taste of Paul Dunn. I really want to get Lynn Packer, because he's written a book on Paul Dunn.

Lynne  06:30  Oh, okay. So [here is] what happened. I think Lynn was part of this. I don't know how much I knew Lynn. But I knew of him because we were doing all this stuff. So, we had begun to understand (Daniel in particular) that a lot of the stories Paul Dunn was telling were not true.

GT  06:47  And Paul Dunn was a former general authority.

Lynne  06:48  Yeah, he was a general authority. And he was the folksy general authority that everybody loved.

GT  06:52  He was a wonderful speaker.

Lynne  06:54  {He had] great stories. He talked about being in a foxhole and holding his best friend while he died.

GT  07:01  And he was a minor league baseball player.

Lynne  07:02  And he was a minor league baseball player. So we found out the name of his best friend who died. Daniel found him and said, "Do you know Paul Dunn?" And he said, "Yes." And he said, "Were you in a foxhole with him?"

Lynne  07:14  And he said, "That never happened."

GT  07:17  "And you're still alive."

Lynne  07:18  Yeah, "You're still alive." And I remember the story. If I can remember it correctly. Dan was at the Church Office Building. He was in an elevator with Paul Dunn and said to Paul, "Look. We know this is going on." Paul was doing a lot of business bad stuff, too. But he said, "We know this is happening."

Lynne  07:33  And Paul Dunn basically said, "Well, it was wasn't an actual story. It was a metaphor kind of thing."

Lynne  07:39  And Dan was like, "Yeah, I don't think so." So, all of that was going on. I mean, it was an interesting time with Hofmann, and then Packer, I mean, Dunn. And then, Packer being so angry and mean and going after anybody that didn't agree with him.

GT  07:55  Boyd Packer.

Lynne  07:56  Yeah. Boyd.

GT  07:56  Yeah. I think Lynn Packer and Boyd [are related.] Boyd is Lynn's uncle, I believe.

Lynne  08:01  I think so, too. Yeah. So, all that was going on. And I remember Dan would keep trying to get Paul Dunn a chance. "Look. Why don't you come clean? And then we won't have to do this." But he didn't. And then I can't remember who broke the story. It might have been Sunstone. But it was so long ago.

GT  08:19  It was probably Lynn Packer.

Lynne  08:20  But he was talking to us. There was some kind of connection. And it came out. But Dan tried to give Paul an opportunity to come clean. Yeah. And then they made him emeritus instead of doing anything else.

GT  08:34  They retired him.

Lynne  08:35  Yeah, they retired him. You'd lied. Go away.

GT  08:40  Wow, you had quite the experiences there with Sunstone.

Lynne  08:43  Oh, it's really [great.] It was really fun and exciting. I loved going to work. It was really great. Yeah.

GT  08:50  Was that like a full time job for you?

Lynne  08:52  It was full time, really, in the summer. But there was a lot of work before: preparation, getting papers, sending out the call, deciding which papers we wanted to do, and then doing all the stuff. Because at that time, we had maybe 1000 people coming, and we had several hundred concurrent sessions. I mean, it was a really interesting time because everyone wanted to be part of it. And then we would always bring in some sort of big name, outside of Mormonism,...

Join us on a fascinating journey to Voree/Burlington, Wisconsin, to explore the unique history and beliefs of a Latter-day Saint group often referred to as the Strangites. This isn't the commonly known LDS Church; rather, it's a distinct branch founded by James Strang. He started a rival Mormon Church in Voree/Burlington, Wisconsin back in 1844 and the church still exists! We'll tour around the Trust Farm and see historic sites, including the Hill of Promise & the home where James Strang died. Gary Weber is a Strangite. He's our tour guide and we'll discuss their church and theology. You don't want to miss this conversation...

https://youtu.be/uMh31ZwIZik

Copyright © 2025

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Genesis of Strangism

The Strangite Church, formally known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Strangite), was founded in 1844. James Strang, who had been sent on a mission to Wisconsin by Joseph Smith, claimed that an angel ordained him on June 27, 1844, the very day Joseph Smith died. This divine ordination, he asserted, made him the rightful successor to the church's leadership.

Trip to Voree/Burlington

The journey to this lesser-known Latter-day Saint community in Wisconsin involved a mix of trains, planes, and automobiles. Landing in Milwaukee, the trip continued towards Burlington, Wisconsin, where the Church is located. The group believes they are the original Mormon Church and refer to themselves as Mormons. The area around Burlington, known as Voree is the setting for much of Strangite history, especially concerning the "Voree record". The weather in Burlington on June 12th was surprisingly mild for summer, with a high of just 63 and low around 56 degrees Fahrenheit, a notable difference from Utah's typical June temperatures.

Current Church Building and Surroundings

The current Strangite church building, located on Spring Valley Road near what's called "Mormon Road," is smaller than I expected. According to Bill Shepard, a long-time resident & member, this building was constructed around 1965-1967 and marks the first time the Strangites have had a dedicated church building, as they were previously scattered. The lawn around the chapel is nicely manicured, and visitors are always welcome.

Inside, or in their collections, the Strangites possess a wealth of historical documents, including 26 volumes of the Journal of Discourses, Times and Seasons, and Millennial Star. They also have Strang Manuscripts, which are copies of letters, and a publication called The Northern Islander, which was published at Beaver Island. Notably, the Strangites do use the Doctrine and Covenants.

Sacred Hill of Promise

One of the most significant sites for Strangites is the Hill of Promise. This is where James Strang is believed to have found his "Voree plates. The discovery was found under a small tree on the hill, under which Strang claimed a buried record lay. He gathered respected men from the town to witness the excavation, ensuring no prior disturbance of the soil. An angel reportedly appeared to Strang, revealing the record's location.

Upon opening the stone casing, the ancient record crumbled due to exposure to air, a common occurrence with ancient artifacts according to Weber. Strang translated this record using the Urim and Thummim, which he said he received from the angel Moroni. The "Voree record" was a short account of a people named "Raja Ramor" who lived in the area and, similar to the Nephites on the Hill Cumorah, were largely destroyed in a great war. The record also depicted the priesthood structure, aligning precisely with the priesthood under Joseph Smith and James Strang, including prophet, viceroy, twelve apostles, and seventies.

Beyond its historical significance, the Hill of Promise holds prophetic importance: James Strang's revelations indicate that Daniel from the Bible will someday appear on this hill to teach the saints and announce the imminent second coming of Christ. Meetings are sometimes held there to commemorate this.

Key Locations and Figures in Voree

The tour also covered several other historically rich locations:

The Trust Farm: Much of the land in Voree, including several historic buildings, is part of the trust farm, which was started by Wingfield Watson. They currently rent out farmland for cattle grazing.

◦ The "Mormon House": An old building from the early 1800s, it was once home to a member of James Strang's church.

◦ Wingfield Watson's House: Wingfield Watson was a significant leader in the church after James Strang. He lived in Voree, went to Beaver Island, and returned after the saints were run off the island. Born in Ireland, Watson was converted to Mormonism by Parley P. Pratt's pamphlet, Voice of Warning, and later to Strangism by a Strangite elder. He lived a long life (1828-1922) and was a loyal disciple and stalwart leader who helped the scattered saints. His home is now occupied by David August's son. A memorial to Wingfield Watson stands outside an old church, erected in 1984 by the Wingfield Watson Trust.

◦ The Old Church House: An earlier church building from the early 1900s, still stands today. It was used from  at least 1940 to around 1965, now serves as storage.

Printing Press Building: This building housed the printing press for publications like The Gospel Herald, and now serves as storage.

Another old building behind the church, It previously was used to print the Gospel Herald.

◦ The Stone Quarry: Located across the street from the trust farm, this quarry provided rock for many homes in Burlington that still stand, including James Strang's parents' house. The quarry is still actively mined.

Voree Park: Also owned by the trust farm, this park features a pictorial representation of early church members and their homes, including the Moses Smith.

White River: This river was a site for baptisms for the dead under Strang. It once had a large water wheel for grinding wheat and corn, though it's long gone now. The river was historically known as "White River" due to its heavy flow.

Voree Temple Project: A grand temple was planned for Voree, with cornerstones laid across the river, but it never progressed much beyond the foundation. Some visuals have even depicted it as potentially larger than the Nauvoo Temple, though this is debated given it was never fully built.

James Strang's Parents' House: This "original Stone Quarry house" is where James Strang was brought after being shot on Beaver Island. He lived there for three weeks before he died. He was initially buried in the Mormon Voree Cemetery on Mormon Road but later moved to the Burlington Cemetery. This is now a private residence, though a tour participant recounted staying in the room where Strang died.

Challenges and Adaptations

The Strangite Church faced a significant challenge when a treasurer absconded with tithing money. Because the church was not legally registered with the government, the bank account was in the treasurer's name, making recovery impossible. This incident prompted the church to obtain a charter and register as a legal entity to hold property, despite objections from some who felt it changed the church. However, registering with the government for legal recognition and property ownership was a common practice in church history.

This tour offered an incredible glimpse into the enduring legacy of James Strang and the Strangite community in Wisconsin. There is clearly much more to learn about their theology and continued existence.

Copyright © 2025

Gospel Tangents

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

I've visited some temples recently! "Gospel Tangents" recently hosted a surprise live session, a "late night unannounced edition," much to the delight of its "night owl" viewers. I shared a whirlwind of Temples, Travels, updates, upcoming content, and even some breaking news from various Restorationist traditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw_a2PA5jAU

Temples, Travels, & Timely Insights!

I've been traveling extensively, leading to a "boatload of pictures" and a significant backlog of videos waiting to be edited. Despite the busy schedule, i'm eager to share my experiences:

Community of Christ World Conference in Independence: Rick attended and captured his reactions to Stassi Cramm being ordained the new prophet. While there, he met a man from New Zealand (a "Kiwi") and expressed hope for interviews with people from the Temple Lot Church, including Tom from a fundamentalist group and potentially Stassi Cramm herself.

Mormon History Association (MHA): This event also proved fruitful, including tours of LDS churches, such as an old one in Ogden and Joseph Soderberg's church where President Hinckley reportedly gained his testimony.

Exploring the Strangites in Wisconsin: This trip was a major highlight. I stayed with Bill Shepard, a former guest, and toured various Strangite sites with Gary Weber and David Boice.

◦ A key stop was the Hill of Promise, which the Strangites consider akin to the Hill Cumorah. It's believed to be where James J. Strang found the Voree record, a "short record of the people of Raja Ramor." This record described a people similar to those in the Book of Mormon, with a priesthood structure mirroring Joseph and James's. The Hill of Promise also holds future significance, as Strangite revelations state that Daniel from the Bible will appear there to announce Christ's approaching second coming.

◦ I also visited the site of the unbuilt Strangite temple in Burlington, which was planned to be "quite significant" in size.

◦ Rick also drove by James Strang's house in Burlington, where Strang died three weeks after his assassination on the dock of Lake Michiga.

◦ A fascinating piece of news is that David Boice is moving to Utah at the end of July. Rick plans to visit Beaver Island (Strangite Island) in July or August, noting that while Gary Weber says there's "not a lot to see," one can rent a golf cart for getting around. He also mentioned Vicki Speek is working on a census of the island.

◦ For those unfamiliar, James J. Strang claimed an angelic ordination on the day Joseph Smith died (June 27, 1844). He translated the Voree plates and later the "plates of Laban" (published as the Book of the Law of the Lord). He settled in Burlington, then moved to Beaver Island, where he was crowned king and even served in the Michigan legislature. His efforts to stop Gentiles from selling liquor to Native Americans reportedly led to his assassination with the help of the U.S. Navy.

Upcoming Trip to Calgary and Cardston, Alberta: Rick is flying to Calgary for his son's wedding. He plans to make a video about the Cardston Alberta Temple, which was the first international temple for the LDS Church. Some compare it to the Mesa Temple and notes its "pioneer feel" like the Manti Temple. The Cardston Temple's murals are darker, possibly due to varnish, and hopes for a refurbishment once a new temple opens in Lethbridge.

Book Giveaways and Exciting New Releases

The live session included a book giveaway for "Joseph Fielding Smith a Mormon Theologian," won by Mark Francis. Looking ahead, the channel is celebrating the release of John Turner's new book, "Joseph Smith The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet," which launched in June on Amazon. (The contest is over now.) Rick gave away an autographed copy of this book.

Potentially "Breaking News" from the Temple Lot Church

I discovered some surprising news regarding the Temple Lot Church: they are "going to quit selling the Book of Commandments." I was "shocked" to learn that they might be preparing to de-canonize it, based on hints from Randy Sheldon.

For context, the Book of Commandments was the precursor to the Doctrine and Covenants, originally intended for publication in 1833 but largely destroyed by a mob. It is incredibly rare and thus "even more expensive" than a first edition Book of Mormon.

I want to express my gratitude to my viewers, particularly the "night owls" who joined the spontaneous live session. There will be many exciting videos in the pipeline, despite my ongoing travel and editing challenges.

Matt Harris told me that only 30% of his research went into his book "2nd Class Saints" due to space restrictions. What was left out? We'll find out and also get a preview of his upcoming biography of Hugh B Brown. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/fQBhV5kMdZ4

Don't miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/

Copyright © 2025

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

 

What Was Left Out?

GT  00:30  I think I've only asked you 1/20 of what I wanted to ask. I need to let you go, but the last question that I want to hit you on, I remember we had a conversation one time, and you said that when you write a book, you only put in about 30% of your research. Usually it's because of page limitations and that sort of a thing. Can you share a story or two of the 70% that's not in this book?

Matt  01:07  Yeah.

GT  01:09  I mean, I guess the Brown stuff, that's for your new book. But what are some things that due to space restrictions you just couldn't get in?

Matt  01:21  Well, just a quick thought, the Brown stuff is in there, his activism and speaking to the press and getting Monroe Fleming ordained or trying to get him ordained, that's all in there in great detail. But the later stuff in the 1970s...

GT  01:34  Daddy, the recording, I don't think that was in there.

Matt  01:38  No, no, no. That will be in my Brown biography. And in full disclosure, I found some of this stuff after, later.

GT  01:53  A book is never finished. Right?

Matt  01:58  Oh, my goodness. Well, there are other details that I'll include about Brown and the ban, in particular, because it's so pivotal to his story, as is polygamy, weirdly enough. And also, the other story I'll just start with a teaser, is that Brown was told that he would be an apostle at the age of 15, if he lived righteous enough. He wasn't called in the Quorum of the Twelve until he was 78 years of age.

GT  02:19 Wow.

Matt  02:20 That is a problem, especially if you've been told...

GT  02:24. We could have gotten rid of the ban sooner. Right? If he was only 20...

Matt  02:29. The teaser I'll give you is it wasn't the ban that kept him out. It was something else. He was accused of doing something he did not do.

GT  02:36  Did Newell Bringhurst share that story, or maybe you did. Was it with alcohol?

Matt  02:43  Newell wouldn't have known this. Well, Newell knows it only for me. This is all new stuff that nobody knows about. And I've shared it with a few people.

GT  02:47  Was it with the alcohol commission or something?

Matt  02:52  Yeah. Some other time, I'll tell you more about the details of that. It's a fascinating thing. He was accused of taking bribes that he didn't take. But perception can be reality.

GT  03:02. It doesn't matter when it's politics.

Matt  03:04  That's right.

GT  03:04. Accusation is good enough.

Matt  03:05  That's right, and especially when people's income is at stake. So there's a lot of things I didn't talk about in this book. I couldn't because of space constraints, but some of it was--I'll give you a couple of examples. One deals with the activism. I talk a lot about the Church Education System and the BYU religion faculty and CES/Institute people, those who teach the young men and women of the Church, college age. I was shocked at the level of pushback from people who are paid to teach religion to the college-aged kids, how much they opposed the ban.

GT  03:51 Oh wow.

Matt  03:52 And you definitely get that in this book. You see it. I mean, I name some names, just the more high profile people like Lowell Bennion. But because of the length of the book, and they wanted to keep the price down, the press and all of that, I had to cut out a lot of details on that.

GT  04:10. Can we get a sequel?

Matt  04:14. And so I name names. I one of those people I go into, I talk about Hugh Nibley in this book, and he doesn't agree with the ban. But I go into a lot more detail about Nibley's views on the ban, that didn't make it into this book. For example, let me tell you what...

GT  04:31. Can I get--you know, with Lengthen Your Stride, Edward Kimball had that. It’s one of my favorite books, the $150 book, from Benchmark.

Matt  04:41  The working draft.

GT  04:41  Yeah, from Benchmark, yes, because that is incredible. Can you do one of those?

Matt  04:47. Well, they asked me to recently. It's funny, you say that. The Benchmark people asked me to. But I talk about Hugh Nibley's views in more detail. Let's just take a pause for a moment with Nibley. He's the Church's apologist. He's trained at the University of California, at Berkeley. His field is ancient history. He's written some really big, important articles in the 1950s dealing with the ancient world. Then at some point in his career, in the ‘50s, he turns to Mormon apologetics. He's trying to put the Book of Mormon in its larger, ancient Near East context. He's less concerned about linguistics and more concerned about the history, and to a lesser extent, even the theology. Other people will pick up on those strands through the years. John Sorensen, the anthropologist, will try to build on Nibley, in his area of expertise.

GT  05:43. Unfortunately, he just passed away, too.

Matt  05:45. He just passed away in his early 90s. Yeah, so Nibley influenced a lot of people, apologists, but Nibley never believed in the ban. I talk about this in my book, again, for a couple of paragraphs. But in the larger one, I go in to more space. Nibley never believed in the ban.   couple things; one is, he taught that God cursed land, not people. Number two, he never believed in this one-drop nonsense. Nibley was an astute reader of history, world languages. You know, he knew that the world was in motion, constant motion that different people from different cultures are mixing and intermarrying and having mixed race children. I mean, the whole race thing is just bogus. He knows this. I might tell your listeners something that Americans in general didn't know about race construction up until an anthropologist at Columbia University named Franz Boas started writing about it in the early 20th century. Franz Boas is really pushing back on this idea that race is something that's fixed, that we're born black, we're born white. He's like, "This is nuts. This is just a construction." If you look at how race is conceived in the United States in the early 20th century, if you live in Georgia, you could be classified as 1/16 black. You know, one of your great grand ancestors was black, or 1/32 in North Carolina, or 1/4 in South Carolina. I mean, think about that. They're trying to figure out who's black, based on a fraction that lawmakers had sat around a table arguing. It's possible that you could be considered black in one state and move over to the next state and you're considered white. And yet they're creating these racial markers. It's just driven by racism, that's all it is. Because if the state identifies you as black, that means you can't go to the white school. You can't go to the restaurant that caters to white people. So the stakes are high. This is why you get people crossing below the color line, light skinned people crossing below the color line, identifying as white, when the fact is their great, great grandfather's black. They're not going to reveal this. And why would they? They want to be able to vote. They want to be able to go to the best schools, go to the restaurants of their choice.

Matt  08:08  Franz Boas is just puncturing a hole in all of this white supremacy stuff that is really, really strong in the first couple of decades in the 20th century. This is where lynchings are taking place, all of this stuff. In high schools, American schools, they're teaching white supremacy everywhere. You look at the textbooks that they offer, and you look at best selling books from the day, that are predicated upon white supremacy. "Immigrants coming to this country," one of the authors writes, in the 1920s, "they're going to dilute the white race." This is what Americans are buying. This is the context in which Joseph Fielding Smith writes his seminal book, The Way to Perfection. This is when the eugenics movement's really flourishing. This is when Adolf Hitler's coming to power with his views of race, some of which he learns from Americans, by the way. So white supremacy is just so endemic in the early 20th century. Protestants and Catholics are preaching all of this stuff from the pulpit. Some are even members of the Ku Klux Klan. So Franz Boas is writing about that this is just a race construction. It's nuts. It's wrong. It's just to justify racism. Nibley reads this stuff. Lowell Bennion reads this stuff. And they tell the brethren, "There's no such thing as a one drop. This is crazy." And anyway, so Nibley doesn't believe in any of this stuff. But if you read some of the things he says in public, he's a loyal foot soldier. He is not an activist. He's not Lowell Bennion. He's not Sterling McMurrin. He's not putting pressure on the brethren in other words. McMurrin puts pressure from the outside on the brethren. Lowell Bennion puts pressure on the inside. Hugh Brown does both. But Nibley doesn't put pressure anyway, he just sort of—he says the right thing. He says, "Oh, the ban, I support it." But in private, he's criticizing the ban.

GT  10:10  So, in public, he's supporting it,

Matt  10:11  Yeah.

GT  10:12  In private, he's criticizing it.

Matt  10:13  Yes and, frankly, I lost a lot of respect for Hugh Nibley when I read his private papers. This is why it's important, any historians who are listening to this, you've got to get into the archives. So, in public, he's saying things about race, and then in private, he's saying the exact opposite....

We're discussing polygamy in John Turner's Joseph Smith Biography and giving away a book!

https://youtube.com/live/09QmyE6WweU

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Welcome, everyone, to Gospel Tangents Live! Sunday, we were live, giving away a copy of John Turner's acclaimed biography, "The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet." I just wrapped up an amazing interview with Turner. He is a super fun guy. It was certainly an engaging discussion, even touching on unexpected controversies like the gold plates.

I’ll have a specific focus on the often-debated topic of polygamy. I’ll be tackling this subject for an upcoming presentation at Sunstone (University of Utah, Aug 1st) and the John Whitmer Historical Association (Independence, September 20th).

Let's break down some of the key points discussed, looking at both the "problematic" and "overwhelming" evidence surrounding Joseph Smith's polygamy.

Problematic Polygamy: Unflattering Episodes and Skeptical Points

There are several challenging aspects of Joseph Smith's polygamy, as presented in Turner's book:

Questioned Revelations: Turner raises questions about the 1831 revelations regarding polygamy to Native Americans. This is partly based on the reaction of Ezra Booth, an early church critic, who, according to Turner, would have made a "bigger deal about polygamy" if such a revelation had been widely known and accepted at the time.

Obscurity of Activities: Joseph Smith took "great pains to obscure his polygamy activities," which Turner notes makes it difficult to ascertain the full scope and nature of these practices. Polygamy skeptics often don't acknowledge this challenge.

Limited Sexual Relations: Turner believes that sexual relations with plural spouses were limited. I’m working on a probability model to explore how often Joseph and another wife besides Emma should have gotten pregnant. Joseph and Emma had nine children (eight pregnancies), proving Joseph's fertility. Skeptics often jump to extremes, either no sex or sex "every night," with "never a happy medium".

Denouncing Adultery: Joseph Smith publicly denounced adulteryon pages 276-277 of Turner's book, a point skeptics often over emphasize.

The Nancy Rigdon Incident: This incident, leading to the infamous "Happiness Letter," is discussed on pages 277, 286, and 287. Nancy Rigdon rejected Joseph's marriage proposal in April 1842. John C. Bennett later published the "Happiness Letter". Turner considers Sidney Rigdon's denial that Joseph wrotethe letter (as opposed to denying the allegationsthat Joseph propositioned Nancy) a "weak response," especially since Joseph typically used scribes to write almost everything.

The Sarah Pratt and John C. Bennett Incident: Also on pages 286-287, this involves Sarah Pratt (married to Orson Hyde) and John C. Bennett. When Orson Hyde discovered a potential relationship between Sarah and Joseph, he wrote a suicide note. In a subsequent meeting, Orson Pratt (Sarah's husband) reportedly opposed Joseph Smith in a subsequent meeting due to the issue with Sarah Pratt, a well-documented story according to Turner and most historians.

Brigham Young's Polygamy Rejection: Brigham Young's plural marriage proposal to Martha Brotherton was rejected, as noted on page 289. This isn’t a flattering portrayal of polygamy. These "problematic" cases often involve both pro-polygamy (like Brigham Young) and anti-polygamy (like John C. Bennett or Sarah Pratt) sources. Their agreement on key events "is pretty strong evidence that something happened".

Overwhelming Evidence: "Prodigious" Polygamy Points

Despite the problematic aspects, John Turner consider "overwhelming evidence" for Joseph Smith's involvement in polygamy:

Early Sealings:

◦ Joseph Bates Noble performed the sealing of Joseph Smith to Louisa Beaman on April 5, 1841, noted in two different journals. Noble was also plurally sealed to Sarah Alley in 1843, a sealing believed to be performed by Joseph Smith.

Divine Command:

Zina Huntington (page 261) and several other women discussed Joseph Smith being commanded by an "angel with a drawn sword" for Joseph to practice polygamy. There are several accounts of this angel with a drawn sword, not just Zina’s account.

Rapid Succession of Marriages:

Joseph Smith's marriages often occurred in quick succession:

◦ Zina Huntington was sealed to Joseph Smith in October 1841 while six months pregnant.

◦ Agnes Coolbrith (Don Carlos's wife) was sealed to Joseph in January 1842.

◦ Lucinda Morgan Harris, widow of William Morgan (involved in the Masonic secrets affair), was sealed to Joseph in February 1842.

◦ Miranda Hyde was sealed to Joseph on April 9, 1842.

◦ Eliza Snow was sealed on June 29, 1842 (the podcast's anniversary of this event!).

◦ Lucy Decker was sealed to Brigham Young on June 14, 1842.

Secrecy and Deception:

◦ A letter instructed to bring Sarah and Whitney and to "watch out for Emma," which Turner believes was to keep the meeting secret from Emma, rejecting the skeptic's idea that it was about protecting Joseph from arrest.

◦ Sarah Whitney (already secretly sealed to Joseph) entered a "sham marriage" to Joseph Kingsbury on April 1, 1843, to get her "off the market" from other suitors9.

Evidence of Sexual Relations:

◦ William Clayton married Margaret Moon (his wife's sister), and Clayton states they shared a bed.

◦ Lucy Walker married Joseph Smith on May 1, 1843.

◦ Almira Johnson shared a bed with Joseph Smith, according to her father, Benjamin Johnson, who also stated Joseph shared a bed with another wife the previous month, suggesting Joseph was sexually involved with other women.

◦ Emily Partridge, one of the Partridge sisters Emma reportedly chose for Joseph, confirmed sexual relations in later court testimony during the Temple Lot case in the 1880s. Testimony with a penalty of perjury is "hard to dismiss".

◦ Bostwick said that Hyrum (Joseph's brother) slept with his spiritual wives in 1844, indicating sexual relations were not exclusive to Joseph.

Sealing Power and D&C 132:

The discussion touched on D&C 132 and the story of Emma and Hyrum's conversation about it. Skeptics often claim this section is a forgery. How skeptics deal with the implications for sealing power and temple ordinances if D&C 132 (and 110) were forged, as it would invalidate "even monogamous couples together?”

Personal Struggles and Rejections:

◦ Margaret Moon (sealed to William Clayton) regretted her plural marriage, and Sarah Crooks rejected a proposal from Clayton.

◦ Lydia Moon rejected Joseph Smith (later marrying two Clayton brothers).

◦ Emma repeatedly asked Joseph to renounce polygamy, even smashing Flora Woodworth's watch after finding Eliza Snow's letters.

◦ Emily Partridge stated Emma wanted her and her sister Eliza to break covenants, leading to their "divorce" from Joseph.

Age Spans and Fertility:

Joseph Smith was married to Melissa Lot (age 19) and Fanny Young (age 56) on the same day (September 20, 1843), highlighting the wide range of ages. Fanny Young and Eliza Snow (who never had children) were likely infertile and thus excluded from his probability models.

Legal Challenges:

◦ William Law was convinced Joseph Smith had slept with Maria Lawrence. Turner believes Joseph Smith actually invented adultery allegations against William Law. Joseph Smith was opposed by William Law, Leonard Soby, and Francis Higbee, leading to the Nauvoo Expositor.

◦ Emma famously denounced polygamy in the Relief Society and the Nauvoo Neighbor.

◦ Joseph Smith excommunicated William Law, Jane Law, Wilson Law, and Foster for their opposition.

◦ In 1844, Joseph Smith was indicted on adultery charges and would have faced trial had he not died.

Some skeptics argue Joseph didn't have sex with his plural wives even if sealed. These testimonies suggest otherwise.

Podcast Happenings and Community Notes

The episode was a live stream, with listeners checking in from North Carolina, Wisconsin, and Georgia. We celebrated Grant Lloyd from Martin, Georgia, who won a copy of John Turner's book!

In other news, our host is working on editing an interview with Gary Weber of the Strangite Church. I’m also working on a video tour with Joseph Soderberg of old Mormon churches in Ogden and Salt Lake, including President Hinckley’s church, the unofficial ward historian, highlighting a time capsule from 1909.

Comments and questions?

 

Don’t miss our other conversations with John: https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-turner/

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In our final conversation with Dan and Ann Hatch of Christ's Church, we'll get into whether they accept black Church members. Do they ordain blacks? (Many fundamentalists reject the 1978 revelation on priesthood from Spencer W Kimball in the mainstream LDS Church.) We'll also discuss why outsiders can't attend priesthood meetings, solemn assemblies, and other topics.

https://youtu.be/K3btHzokc2M

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Unique Insights from Temple President Dan and Matron Ann Hatch

Recently, we had the privilege of speaking with Dan and Ann Hatch, the Temple President and Matron for Christ’s Church Temple, to delve into the distinctive beliefs and practices of their church. While sharing some common roots, Christ Church operates with several notable differences that offer a fascinating look into their unique path.

Here are some key insights from our conversation:

A Stricter Word of Wisdom

One of the most immediate distinctions discussed was Christ Church's stricter interpretation of the Word of Wisdom compared to the LDS Church. While they adhere to the same principles found in Doctrine and Covenants Section 89, their understanding goes further. Members are expected to abstain from cocoa-containing products (chocolate) and swine flesh (pork). This specific interpretation of avoiding chocolate was formally established in 1992, following a direct inquiry in a Q&A session with the Prophet, who received a revelation on the spot confirming the prohibition.

This means no chocolate bars, no chocolate ice cream, and no bacon. Herbal teas are permissible, unlike coffee and Postum. Even cold caffeinated drinks like Coke and Pepsi are not preferred, with caffeine generally interpreted as part of the "hot drinks" prohibition. The change had a significant impact on members, with one anecdotal story highlighting a mother's decision to wait until after Christmas to be baptized so she could enjoy one last chocolate orange.

Expanded Articles of Faith and Inspired Hymns

Christ Church has its own set of 22 Articles of Faith, which are an expanded and customized version, having gone through three revisions via revelation. These articles are more detailed and align with their Temple recommend questions, of which there are 24 or 25.

Notably, their first Article of Faith states: "We believe in God the Eternal Father the literal father of both our body and our spirit who as Michael Adam created this world on our behalf we believe Jesus Christ The Offspring of God the Father and Mary who lived without committing sin and willingly provided atonement for the sins of the world in the Garden of Gethsemane finally giving his life up upon the cross we believe in the Holy Ghost the third member of the godhead the witness and testator who lived upon the Earth at the head of this this dispensation". The reference to "the head of this dispensation" refers to Joseph Smith.

In addition to customized Articles of Faith, Christ’s Church boasts a unique collection of over 230 inspired songs. Their own composer, Gloria, began writing music and songs around 1975-1976 under the direction of Rulon, a former leader. These songs are considered "totally in the spirit and completely 100% inspired". Originally called "Paquin hymns," they are now known as "Songs of Zion" and are in the process of being published in a hardbound hymnal. While they have their own hymns, they also use the LDS hymnal and occasionally sing songs from the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) hymnal. There's also hope to incorporate some of Eliza R. Snow's poems and songs into their new book.

Distinct Temple and Meeting Practices

When it comes to temple attendance and church gatherings, Christ Church has specific requirements:

Temple Recommends: Temple recommends for Christ Church Temple expire every six months.

Solemn Assemblies: These gatherings are distinct from General Conferences, requiring a higher standard of worthiness to attend. While general conferences might be open to non-members or those not living a certain standard, solemn assemblies require a "solemn assembly recommend" and are only open to members and serious investigators who are actively progressing towards baptism. Non-members have been permitted at General Meetings in the past, but not Solemn Assemblies.

Priesthood Meetings: Unlike some other branches of Mormonism, Christ Church does not allow non-members to attend priesthood meetings. This is primarily because discussions often involve sensitive "sacred things" or "our business" that are not intended for outside ears, especially given past instances where non-members shared private discussions externally. In contrast, non-members are invited and welcome to attend Relief Society meetings. During priesthood meetings, particularly on Temple weekends, quorums, including the Quorum of the Twelve, meet to discuss reports, missionary efforts, and ways to help members globally.

Priesthood, Patriarchs, and Inclusivity

Patriarchs: In Christ Church, Patriarchs play a significant role beyond giving patriarchal blessings. They are typically heads of families and have the authority to perform ordinances of repentance and forgiveness, which can include directing an individual to be re-baptized. Notably, families of Patriarchs do not always need a temple recommend from the temple president. Christ’s Church believes in having seven Patriarchs, which is distinct from the Council of Friends structure in the AUB, though members can hold positions in both the Quorum of the Twelve and as a Patriarch.

Aaronic Priesthood: While typically associated with youth, adults can also hold positions in the Aaronic Priesthood if they haven't advanced to the Melchizedek Priesthood. Children can be ordained to the office of Deacon as young as eight, with others advancing to Teacher by ten and Priest by 12 or 13-14, though ordination is based on a father's recommendation, not an automatic process.

Ordain Blacks?

Black Members: Christ Church affirms that black members can be baptized and can attend the temple to perform baptisms for the dead. Ordination to the priesthood is not automatic but is by revelation and not based on a person's race or color. Some men, regardless of race, may remain in the Aaronic priesthood for years before being ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood, as this advancement is also determined by revelation. The church does not consider race a "pillar" of their religion; revelation is their guiding principle.

Polygamy: While polygamy is acknowledged as a "tenet" of their religion, it is not considered a pillar that members must live. Members have the agency to choose not to live polygamy and can still maintain full membership and access to temple ordinances.

Continuous Revelation: This is emphasized as the foremost pillar that guides and directs Christ’s Church.

What are your thoughts about Christ’s Church?

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Joseph Smith's arrest for treason in having the Nauvoo Expositor destroyed led to his death. He didn't use habeas corpus to get out of this jam, and it cost him his life. Dr John Turner shares his reactions to Joseph's life. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/pcN0sdqR0ws

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Recklessness, Revelation, and the Power of Habeas Corpus

Joseph Smith, a towering figure in American religious history, saw his life come to a dramatic and tragic end in June 1844. As discussed in this conversation with John Turner, author of "Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet," the events leading up to his death reveal a complex interplay of political tension, legal maneuverings, and personal choices.

A Provocative Path to Disaster

The final six months of Joseph Smith's life were marked by increasingly provocative and reckless actions. He engaged in unnecessary fights, denouncing and antagonizing men from the stand during meetings, almost as if "inviting opposition.” His rhetoric and one-on-one conversations with dissenters were "incautious.” While he was under an “incredible amount of stress" due to fears of enemies and potential execution, this stress often led him to respond in unconstructive ways.

A key event was the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor newspaper in May 1844. This act made him vulnerable to his enemies. While some historians like Michael Quinn have suggested the Council of Fifty minutes and negotiations with foreign nations were a bigger concern than polygamy charges in the Expositor, Joseph and his allies used "salty language" for various objections to the paper, including theological innovations, accumulation of political power, and polygamy. It wasn't a single issue, and despite opponents like William Law finding it difficult to break with Joseph, his incendiary behavior prevented reconciliation.

Fateful Return to Nauvoo

When Governor Thomas Ford of Illinois sent a posse to arrest Joseph Smith in June 1844, Joseph initially fled across the Mississippi River, contemplating leaving Nauvoo and reuniting with his wife, Emma, elsewhere. He had a history of evading arrest. However, he ultimately chose to return to Nauvoo and go to Carthage to face charges related to the Nauvoo Expositor's destruction.

Later sources sometimes blame individuals, like Emma, for convincing him to return, not wanting him to abandon her and the family. However, a contemporary letter from Vilate Kimble states that Joseph "sought the will of the Lord and God told him to return.” This indicates Joseph believed his decision to return was a revelation.

The Power and Peril of Habeas Corpus

Joseph Smith's experience with legal challenges, particularly his use of habeas corpus, is a significant aspect of his later life. Habeas corpus is a legal mechanism that gives an arrested individual an opportunity for a hearing on the legality of their arrest at the earliest stage of the process.

Early, Legitimate Use:Joseph used habeas corpuseffectively to avoid arrest on Missouri charges. For example, when attempts were made to extradite him to Missouri starting around 1841 or 1842, he requested and was granted a writ of habeas corpus from a state judge. Stephen Douglas reportedly heard one such case and freed Joseph, ruling the arrest warrant invalid. This demonstrates how the power was "supposed to work.”

Nauvoo's Enhanced Powers:In 1842, the Nauvoo City Council began passing statutes that significantly enhanced its ability to issue writs of habeas corpus, aiming to protect Joseph Smith and other residents from arrest on anycharge – whether internal Nauvoo law, state law, or more serious offenses. Nauvoo's own municipal court, over which Joseph, as mayor, could preside, would rule on the legality of his arrest. This made it "really easy for him to get off" and "justifiably made everybody angry.”

Systemic Weakness:While this abuse of power was problematic, it doesn't justify the anti-Mormon mob violence. The irony is that when Joseph didsubmit to arrest, a mob killed him, highlighting the "weakness of the legal and political system in Illinois in the early 1840s.” Ideally, a state court should have been able to challenge and invalidate Nauvoo's claimed enhanced habeas corpus power, but this legal challenge never fully played out.

Prophet, Scoundrel, or Both?

John Turner's overall impression of Joseph Smith is that of "a bit of both" – prophet and scoundrel. As a "religion maker and the forger of a tradition," there is "a lot to admire," and Turner personally enjoys elements of Joseph's personality and finds many of his ideas "arresting.”

However, Joseph also exhibited "significant flaws," sometimes treating close associates like Orson and Parley Pratt or Martin Harris with callousness and cruelty. Turner also expresses "serious reservations about the way that Joseph pursued plural marriage" and the treatment of individuals involved. While Joseph could be hospitable and charitable, he also had what Turner describes as "a touch of what I'd call megalomania" concerning his role in the grand order of things, his ability to pursue it, and his imperviousness to risk and danger. Turner generally avoids psychoanalyzing Joseph, noting the difficulty for historians to do so.

Ultimately, Joseph Smith remains a figure of immense historical importance, whose actions, choices, and the turbulent context of his time continue to be a subject of fascination and study.

How do you view Joseph Smith?

 

Don’t miss our other conversations with John: https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-turner/

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We're diving into Nauvoo polygamy & Joseph Smith's many wives. How often did he have sexual relations with his wives? Was it less frequent than many think? John Turner attempts to answer. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/1S-ZRA7kFcQ

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Insights into Joseph Smith's Controversial Practice

The Nauvoo period (1839-1844) in the history of the Latter-day Saints is a fascinating and often controversial chapter, particularly concerning the practice of plural marriage, or polygamy, by Joseph Smith. Historian John Turner, author of the acclaimed biography "Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of American Prophet," sheds light on this complex topic.

Nauvoo: A New Beginning and an Acceleration of Vision

Following Joseph Smith's escape from jail in Missouri, the Latter-day Saints established a new community in Nauvoo, Illinois. The choice of Nauvoo was largely due to an individual named Isaac Galland, a land speculator who had extensive land holdings on both sides of the Mississippi River in Nauvoo and Iowa. Galland was in contact with church leaders even while Joseph was imprisoned, making the possibility of purchasing these lands an early consideration.

Upon arriving in Quincy, Illinois, Joseph Smith quickly pursued these land purchases, and Saints began to gather rapidly on both sides of the Mississippi. Despite facing opposition and being advised by opponents to spread out, Joseph Smith characteristically doubled or tripled down on his vision rather than backing down from setbacks. This resolve led to the quick establishment of Nauvoo, a community that by 1844 rivaled Chicago as the largest city in Illinois. Far from an interruption, Nauvoo represented an "acceleration of Joseph's vision" in the years after 1839.

The Astonishing Pace of Plural Marriages

It is in this rapidly growing and centralizing community that Joseph Smith's plural marriage practice truly took off. John Turner noted that the pace of Joseph's marriages was "astonishing," with him reportedly taking a dozen wives in 1842 alone. While "monogamy affirmers" or "polygamy skeptics" contend that these events did not occur, most scholars, including John Turner and Larry Foster, agree that the evidence for Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy is "overwhelming".

The Evidence: What Do We Know?

While it is difficult to precisely date exact timelines or get directly inside Joseph Smith's mind to understand his intentions, there is substantial evidence regarding his polygamous activities. Joseph Smith took pains to keep his plural marriages quiet. However, information comes from:

Contemporary Accounts:The William Clayton Journalis described as a "fantastic and extensive contemporary account" that is considered reliable, aligning with other early 1840s sources. Journals kept by Willard Richards and Brigham Young also provide corroborating information.

Affidavits and Testimony:Numerous affidavits about Joseph's plural marriages exist, including very late sources like the Temple Lot testimonyfrom a number of his wives and other individuals. Even though the church had a particular purpose in affirming Joseph's polygamy in this legal conflict, testimonies from women like Emily Dow Partridge were "not flattering for Joseph Smith," making it unlikely the church fabricated them. According to Turner, it's an "open and shut case" that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.

Theological Motivations: Getting "All That You Can"

Joseph Smith himself did not explicitly articulate a singular reason for the exact number of women he married. However, contextually, and based on what other early Latter-day Saints said about plural marriage during these years, it appears that Joseph connected "the size of an individual's family on earth to the extent of his heavenly glory". This theological motivation led him to pursue additional plural marriages "assiduously" and at times, "recklessly," to "get all that you can" as he explained to William Clayton.

This rationale explains why he was sealed to such a "diversity of women" – very young women, older women, married women, and single women. Joseph's approach was not to quietly or secretively be sealed to just two or three women, but to continually pursue additional plural marriages, even after the practice became a public controversy in the summer of 1842. Turner notes that Joseph "just was not his approach" to keep his head down or make fewer waves, often demonstrating a "lack of caution and prudence" in his activities toward the end of his life.

The Question of Sexual Relations and Consummation

A frequently asked question concerns the frequency of sexual relations in these plural marriages. It's crucial to distinguish between what can be documented and what is a reasonable supposition.

Documented Consummation:Some of Joseph Smith's plural marriages were indeed consummated. For example, concerning what was likely his first plural marriage to Louisa Beaman (Fanny Alger is not counted as a plural wife but rather a "dirty, nasty, filthy affair or scrape"), Joseph Bates Noble's testimony indicates that he saw Joseph and Louisa go into a house and implies consummation. A "number of plural wives" also stated that their marriages were consummated. However, it is not known if all marriages were consummated.

Uncertainty in Some Cases:There's no definitive information for all marriages, especially those to already married women or very young women like Helen Mar Kimball, who was 13. While it was an idea in 1850s Utah that men could take girls as young as 12 or 13 as wives, Brigham Young often advised men to wait a few years after the ceremony before consummating the marriage.

Supposition of Infrequent Sex:A "reasonable supposition" or conclusion is that, as a general rule, there was at most infrequent sexin these plural marriages. This is primarily because, as far as is known, the plural marriages did not produce children, despite Joseph Smith being fertile and having children with Emma through the time of his death. If there was a lot of sex, one would expect children, and the alternative — that pregnancies were aborted — doesn't seem likely. It's even possible Joseph consummated some sealings once and then had little to do with the women again, as he lacked time for ongoing relationships with most.

This hypothesis that sex was infrequent suggests that plural marriage was not solely about Joseph's sex drive. While he may have had sincere theological motivations, this does not absolve him of "behaving inappropriately in many instances" towards women, their families, and his associates, whose wives he sometimes pursued. The topic, like Joseph Smith himself, tends to be polarizing, with some viewing it as "nothing" and others as "everything," but the evidence suggests a more nuanced reality.

The intricacies of Joseph Smith's polygamy remain a subject of ongoing historical inquiry, with scholars striving to understand the motivations and realities behind this controversial practice, often limited by available information.

Comments?

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The origins of polygamy are murky. Was there an 1831 revelation on the topic? What was the nature of the Fanny Alger relationship? We'll also discuss Zion's Camp, and Joseph Smith's dog, Old Major, who caused some issues with the troops. How did Liberty Jail affect Joseph Smith & the Church? John Turner tackles these questions. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/v9171F-vXok

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Peering into Joseph Smith's Story

We recently had the privilege of delving into the life of Joseph Smith with John Turner, author of the compelling biography, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet. The conversation unpacked some of the most intriguing and lesser-known episodes from Smith’s early life, providing valuable context and challenging common narratives.

Nuances of the Fanny Alger Controversy

One of the topics we explored was the Fanny Alger controversy. While historical sources on this episode are often late or secondhand, making it difficult to write about with confidence, John Turner found persuasive arguments that date Fanny Alger's relationship with Joseph Smith to shortly before she left Kirtland in August or September of 1836.

Interestingly, there's been discussion about whether this was an "adoptive sealing." However, John said it's considered unlikely to have been an adoptive sealing because Joseph Smith had not yet fully articulated or developed his understanding of sealing at that time. Oliver Cowdery, a key figure in the early church, certainly didn't view it as such, remaining "very angry about it in early 1838.” Instead, it is most likely to have been "some sort of intimate relationship" that was disturbing to both Oliver Cowdery and Emma Smith. He said It is also considered unlikely to have been a plural marriage.

It's worth noting that while sexual impropriety allegations were common against new religious movements, the Fanny Alger controversy, though a "live issue within the church for several years," did not particularly resonate with the church's external critics at the time in the context of plural marriage or polygamy. In fact, the Church's 1835 Declaration on Marriage emphasized monogamy as the standard.

Zion's Camp and the Tale of "Old Major"

Moving to 1834, we discussed Zion's Camp, Joseph Smith's march to Missouri. While often seen as a significant event for its larger purposes, it also had its lighter — and more human — moments. One such detail involves "Old Major," Joseph Smith's dog.

During the challenging and conflict-ridden trip, Old Major didn't get along with another church member, Sylvester Smith (no relation to Joseph). The dog's barking at night and potential attempts to bite Sylvester led to Sylvester speaking "rude things about Joseph Smith's dog" and even wanting to shoot it. In a moment highlighting the "juvenile" but understandable "temper flared" nature of the trip, Joseph Smith reportedly threatened to shoot Sylvester Smith in response. This anecdote underscores that the participants of Zion's Camp were "not all of one heart in mind.” Sylvester Smith later published a confession for opposing Joseph rudely, even managing to say the note was made "under duress.”

From a broader perspective, while the spiritual purpose of Zion's Camp — the redemption of Zion — ultimately failed, it was ironically a "very positive thing for many of those who were participants.” Despite Zion not being redeemed and the march stopping short of engaging enemies or reclaiming property, the majority of marchers found their faith strengthened. This was partly because, by accepting the call, they were "further entering into Joseph's story," experiencing "divine promises and chastening and failures" alongside him. Joseph Smith highly valued this loyalty, rewarding many participants with "blessings with church offices.” He viewed their decision to stick with him despite difficulties as a testament to their loyalty and friendship.

The Enduring Trauma of Liberty Jail

Finally, our conversation delved into a period often overlooked: Joseph Smith's four months in Liberty Jail (late 1838 to early 1839). While it might seem like an interlude in Joseph's kinetic life, John Turner emphasized its profound significance.

These were "incredibly terrible months" for Joseph Smith. The jail was "squalid," and he experienced a "very forlorn moment," even feeling "abandoned by God.” Beyond the harsh conditions, Joseph faced a capital charge of treason. While we now know Missouri officials allowed him to escape, Joseph had to "contemplate with the horror of those four months and the possibility going forward that people in Missouri or elsewhere might want to arrest and execute him.”

This traumatic experience had a lasting impact. John Turner suggested that Joseph's actions in Nauvoo, particularly concerning "politics and the judicial system," which often seemed "reckless, provocative, sometimes unwise," were likely influenced by the trauma of Liberty Jail. Joseph's strong desire not to be "dragged back to Missouri" or "imprisoned where he might be vulnerable to his enemies" in places like Missouri or Carthage later on, was a direct consequence of his time locked up and facing possible execution.

These insights from John Turner’s work offer a nuanced and empathetic view into Joseph Smith’s life, highlighting both personal struggles and pivotal historical moments. To dive deeper, be sure to check out Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet!

 

Don’t miss our other conversations with John: https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-turner/

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What does John Turner believe about the Golden Plates? Were they made of tin as Dan Vogel asserts? What about the First Vision controversy? Does John think Joseph was a pious fraud? Did Joseph take advantage of Martin Harris? John answers these and other question. Check out our conversation...

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What Did Joseph Smith Really Have in that Box?

Historian John Turner, author of Joseph Smith, The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet, delves into the enduring mystery surrounding Joseph Smith's golden plates and the origins of the Book of Mormon. His insights offer a nuanced perspective, moving beyond simple pronouncements to a historian's critical examination.

The Golden Plates: A Historian's Best Judgment

When it comes to the golden plates, Turner makes a clear distinction between visionary experiences and material objects. While he acknowledges that understanding Joseph Smith's visions is difficult as a historian, dealing with a physical claim like the golden plates is different.

Turner's "best judgment" as a historian is that Joseph Smith did not have actual golden plates. However, he strongly believes Joseph did engage in a "certain amount of subterfuge". Joseph clearly possessed some sort of physical object which he would place in a box, heft around, and at times cover with a linen cloth. Others, including Emma Smith, witnessed an object that seemed like "thin sheets of metal under a linen cloth," suggesting some form of metallic object.

For Turner, the simplest explanation for a young man claiming to have a valuable object he can't show to anyone else is that he doesn't have it. This conclusion is also reinforced by his reading of the Book of Mormon as a 19th-century text, rather than an ancient record. If it's a 19th-century text, golden plates aren't necessary, making it "more likely" that the text "flows out of Joseph's literary imagination".

Turner emphasizes that this critical examination is not meant to be disrespectful to faithful Latter-day Saints, but rather a serious approach to studying the tradition.

The Search for Alternatives: Not Enough Evidence

The question of what Joseph might have had in the box has led to various theories:

Dan Vogelhas suggested the object might have been made of tin.

Sonia Hazard, another scholar, theorizes that Joseph could have encountered printing plates, which served as an inspiration for the project and could have been the object in the box.

However, Turner states that there is not enough evidence to support any of these alternative theories. While these are "suggestive possibilities," he concludes, "we can't know. So, I think we have to leave it as a bit of a mystery". He also clarifies that for him, the "absence of evidence for any alternative explanation is [not] evidence for the faithful account".

Audacity Over Deception: The Book of Mormon Project

Despite his view on the golden plates, Turner doesn't primarily see Joseph Smith as a "fraud," "deceiver," or "impostor". While he acknowledges an "element of deception that gets it off the ground," his main takeaway from the Book of Mormon project is its utter improbability and audacity.

Turner describes it as a "hairbrained scheme" that Joseph "pulls off". He points out that it was "utterly unlikely" for a 21-year-old Joseph Smith, without formal education, to embark on such a project and publish a 600-page book. This remarkable literary success, while not a bestseller at the time, certainly had "serious legs". Turner sees this as "an act of audacity" rather than primarily an "act of deception," crediting Joseph Smith with this incredible literary production.

Assessing Joseph's Sincerity

The question of Joseph Smith's sincerity is complex. Turner generally tries to avoid weighing in on Joseph's sincerity at any given moment, noting that it's difficult to assess even for people we interact with daily.

He does, however, believe that Joseph was a "sincere Christian" in the sense that his family had been seeking a context to "encounter to know and be saved by Jesus Christ". Joseph was familiar with the Bible and prayed sincerely. Ultimately, Turner concludes that "Joseph believes in the vision that the Book of Mormon and his other texts articulate".

The Complicated Relationship with Martin Harris

Martin Harris was instrumental in the Book of Mormon's publication, even mortgaging his farm to bankroll it. Turner notes that Harris was "desperate to believe" in the golden plates and Joseph, being "very primed to believe" and looking for a new direction in his life. In the end, Harris reportedly felt he "gotten what he was looking for" and did not think Joseph had deceived or swindled him.

However, Turner finds Joseph's treatment of Martin "troubling" in certain ways. He believes Joseph applied "ecclesiastical pressure to get a wavering Martin Harris over the line to bankroll or guarantee the book publication". Furthermore, in early 1830, Joseph appeared "a little bit callous toward Harris," being "reluctant to split profits from the book sales with him" and seeming to "cut him out of the potential Canadian copyright sale". Turner describes Joseph's treatment of Harris as "a little bit on the shabby side".

The Early Polygamy Question

The discussion also briefly touched upon a possible 1831 polygamy revelation related to elders marrying Native Americans on the Missouri border, as suggested by a later account from William Phelps. Turner, however, states he does "not put too much stock in that" and does not believe there is "solid evidence for Joseph having had a revelation on plural marriage in the 1830s". He notes that a critic from that period, Ezra Booth, who wrote scathing letters after becoming disillusioned with Joseph, made no mention of polygamy, which Turner believes would have been "good fuel for Booth's criticism" had it existed.

John Turner's approach invites a deeper, more analytical engagement with the history of Joseph Smith and the Latter-day Saint tradition, encouraging readers to consider the complexities and human elements behind the narratives.

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