Who founded Christ's Church (a polygamist group)? Ann & Dan Hatch are the matron and temple pres of Christ's Church and detail how the church was founded by Gerald Peterson, Sr in 1978. We'll discuss his priesthood claims and how they view other groups' priesthood, including the LDS Church. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/MSeGDUXEb3U

Don’t miss our other conversations with Ann & Dan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/ann-hatch/

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Matt Harris told me that only 30% of his research went into his book "2nd Class Saints" due to space restrictions. What was left out? We'll find out and also get a preview of his upcoming biography of Hugh B Brown. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/fQBhV5kMdZ4

Don't miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/

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What Was Left Out?

GT  00:30  I think I've only asked you 1/20 of what I wanted to ask. I need to let you go, but the last question that I want to hit you on, I remember we had a conversation one time, and you said that when you write a book, you only put in about 30% of your research. Usually it's because of page limitations and that sort of a thing. Can you share a story or two of the 70% that's not in this book?

Matt  01:07  Yeah.

GT  01:09  I mean, I guess the Brown stuff, that's for your new book. But what are some things that due to space restrictions you just couldn't get in?

Matt  01:21  Well, just a quick thought, the Brown stuff is in there, his activism and speaking to the press and getting Monroe Fleming ordained or trying to get him ordained, that's all in there in great detail. But the later stuff in the 1970s...

GT  01:34  Daddy, the recording, I don't think that was in there.

Matt  01:38  No, no, no. That will be in my Brown biography. And in full disclosure, I found some of this stuff after, later.

GT  01:53  A book is never finished. Right?

Matt  01:58  Oh, my goodness. Well, there are other details that I'll include about Brown and the ban, in particular, because it's so pivotal to his story, as is polygamy, weirdly enough. And also, the other story I'll just start with a teaser, is that Brown was told that he would be an apostle at the age of 15, if he lived righteous enough. He wasn't called in the Quorum of the Twelve until he was 78 years of age.

GT  02:19 Wow.

Matt  02:20 That is a problem, especially if you've been told...

GT  02:24. We could have gotten rid of the ban sooner. Right? If he was only 20...

Matt  02:29. The teaser I'll give you is it wasn't the ban that kept him out. It was something else. He was accused of doing something he did not do.

GT  02:36  Did Newell Bringhurst share that story, or maybe you did. Was it with alcohol?

Matt  02:43  Newell wouldn't have known this. Well, Newell knows it only for me. This is all new stuff that nobody knows about. And I've shared it with a few people.

GT  02:47  Was it with the alcohol commission or something?

Matt  02:52  Yeah. Some other time, I'll tell you more about the details of that. It's a fascinating thing. He was accused of taking bribes that he didn't take. But perception can be reality.

GT  03:02. It doesn't matter when it's politics.

Matt  03:04  That's right.

GT  03:04. Accusation is good enough.

Matt  03:05  That's right, and especially when people's income is at stake. So there's a lot of things I didn't talk about in this book. I couldn't because of space constraints, but some of it was--I'll give you a couple of examples. One deals with the activism. I talk a lot about the Church Education System and the BYU religion faculty and CES/Institute people, those who teach the young men and women of the Church, college age. I was shocked at the level of pushback from people who are paid to teach religion to the college-aged kids, how much they opposed the ban.

GT  03:51 Oh wow.

Matt  03:52 And you definitely get that in this book. You see it. I mean, I name some names, just the more high profile people like Lowell Bennion. But because of the length of the book, and they wanted to keep the price down, the press and all of that, I had to cut out a lot of details on that.

GT  04:10. Can we get a sequel?

Matt  04:14. And so I name names.

This is the first podcast inside a polygamist temple! Dan & Ann Hatch are the temple president & matron of the Nevada Temple for Christ's Church. We're meeting in their baptistry and will learn more about their temple ceremonies. We'll also discuss their conversion from the LDS Church to Christ's Church. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/a30ueYi77cY

Don’t miss our other conversations with Ann & Dan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/ann-hatch/

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Here is our 2nd Gospel Tangents Road Trip! We're visiting 2 temples and even get to go inside temple with our camera! Dan & Ann Hatch are the temple president & matron of the Nevada Temple for Christ's Church. We'll also drive near Modena, Utah to visit the pyrmaid shaped temple with Quorum of 12 President David Patrick and John Peterson, uncle to the current prophet Michael Peterson of Christ's Church. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/ZY7_sU61dck

Don’t miss our other trips: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/gt-trips/

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Have the Sept Six & other intellectuals nfluenced LDS Church leaders with their arguments? Dr Sara Patterson weighs in on that question. If you're not on our newsletter, sign up for free and I'll send you a secret link to listen to the conclusion at https://gospeltangents.com/newsletter

https://youtu.be/9NKgZfLUtgI

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How Intellectuals Have Moved the Church

Interview

GT  00:31  So you, with your book, you're way more expansive than just those six individuals who got "exed."

Sara  00:39  I am, yeah.

GT  00:40  And I noticed the subtitle is The Struggle for the Soul of Mormonism.

Sara  00:45  [Yes.]

GT  00:46  Can you talk about, has anything happened with regards to the September Six, that has changed the leadership as far as moving more towards them?

Sara  01:03  Can you say the end part of that question again? Moving the church leaders more towards?

GT  01:11  Yeah, so for example, I know with Mark Hofmann, and I know we don't want to  include him in there. But it does seem to many, I would say, that there's been a more openness to discussions of polygamy, and magic and seer stones. And so, it does seem like, even though Mark Hofmann was a terrible person, there has been first a closing and then an opening into church history. Do you see any of the same sort of things with feminism or these other issues, historicity of the Book of Mormon. Has it changed church leaders?

Sara  01:51  I see. So, have the ideas that were presented by the six become more mainstream?

GT  01:59  Mainstream.

Sara  01:59  Yeah. I think some of them have. And I think the historical arguments are probably the ones that have the most.

GT  02:10  As far as Church history.

Sara  02:12   Yeah, I think the role of the internet cannot be overplayed in that because the church couldn't manage in the ways that it had prior to the internet, people's access to documents and things like that. I think a lot of the history that Mike Quinn was excommunicated for is now history.

GT  02:40  Mainstream.

Sara  02:40  Yeah, that people accept. In that regard, I think there's definitely been a greater acceptance of the history. And there's also been, I think, from the Church hierarchy’s perspective, it doesn't need to be about document access though that is certainly still at play. But we have our own historians who can tell these stories in ways that we think are still faith promoting. And so the Gospel Topics Essays represent that.

GT  03:24  One place where there hasn't been a change, though, would you agree is scriptural historicity? We still believe in a literal Adam and Eve, Noah, Jonah. We still believe in a historical Book of Mormon. And so, anybody like Brent Metcalfe, or David Wright, that brings in historical criticism of the Bible, questions whether Noah was a real person, is that still a problem? We haven't embraced Brent Metcalfe kind of an idea or David Wright.

Sara  03:57  I haven't seen a lot of evidence of that, although there's still people, I think, talking about that. But, yeah, I haven't seen that a lot.

GT  04:06  Okay.

Sara  04:07  I think that there are still very firm boundaries. I think the historicity of the Scripture may be one. Women in the priesthood is certainly one. There hasn't been movement on that. There hasn't been a lot of movement on Heavenly Mother. I guess the question is how incremental we want to look at it? There's certainly more discourse about Heavenly Parents. But Renlund gave a talk last year or the year before about Heavenly Mother that still very much said we don't know much about her and engaging in speculation is really dangerous,”which was a restatement of what Hinckley had been saying in the 90s.

GT  05:00  A brushback pitch maybe?

Sara  05:02  Yeah, So I think there are certain topics that the Six we're talking a...

Have you every wanted to go on a road trip with Rick B? Now's your chance! This is the first in a series of Tangent Trips we'll go on: Gilgal Gardens. The idea is to visit various Mormon history sites, both obscure & famous, and take you along for the ride!

In this first Tangent Trip, we'll visit Gilgal Garden, home of the Joseph Smith Sphinx! Why a sphinx? Why not! I'll let my friend Clair Barrus tell you more!

Don’t miss our other trips: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/gt-trips/

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Fundamentalist Mormon Theology has some interesting differences with the LDS Church. Dr Cristina Rosetti says Heavenly Mothers are named, as is the Holy Ghost. We'll also talk about a specialized form of reincarnation and the economic order of heaven. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/HObl0iSTUqw

Don’t miss our other conversations with Cristina: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cristina-rosetti/

 

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Economic Order of Heaven

GT  01:25  Well, very good. I do want to jump into these later groups. But let's stick with Musser for a minute. Because I remember in your book, you did his life story first. Then you went into some of his theological writings and things like that. We've talked already about how he was the author of, hey, priesthood is different from church. What are some of the other innovations?

Cristina  01:56  Yeah, the three that I focus on are priesthood, polygamy, and United Order. Because while he never lived in Short Creek, while he never was the boots on the ground, he did have the vision for it. He wrote a pamphlet called The Economic Order of Heaven, where he really expanded the vision of the United Order. A lot of people are interested in is this just socialism? Is this communism? What is Mormon United Order? You've heard these modern debates. He talks about it.

GT  02:27  I was talking to my son about consecration, and how some people call it communism. It didn't even faze him. I was really surprised.  (Chuckling)

Cristina  02:37  Well, you can give him The Economic Order of Heaven. Maybe he can join up with the AUB.

GT  02:41  I don't think his mom would be too happy about that.

Cristina  02:44  That's fair. Yeah, he does a lot of early work. One of the interesting things or what I think is interesting, is he writes The Economic Order of Heaven during the Great Depression, when people are poor. The Economic Order of Heaven, with Musser's writing, I think it's really significant. Because at the time he writes it, Mormon fundamentalists are poor in this time. Everyone's poor. But they're poor in a different way, because they're felons. They can't go to the government for aid the same way other people can. They're losing their jobs more rapidly. The [LDS] Church is creating the welfare system. But they can't go to that either. So, they're in a really unique place.

GT  03:24  Is it because of the depression that they became the United Order?

Cristina  03:29  He starts writing about it during the Great Depression. He starts realizing we don't have the church welfare system that is being developed. We can't go to the government. What are we going to do? And so he starts imagining the United Order. He starts really thinking about the United Order and reviving the United Order as a solution to this very real problem. He's losing his job. Everyone's losing their job. They have big families to support. He starts to look back. I mean, he does what he always does. He looks back on Mormon history and realizes Joseph Smith had an answer. God has an answer to this. He starts really imagining what this could look like. And so that's a significant contribution. Then he ties it to the current moment. He's thinking through a lot of these issues. He really creates the strands. He takes all the strands of 19th century Mormonism and imagines a theology of how to live their life.

GT  04:17  Now, I know Leonard Arrington made a distinction between United Order and consecration. Is Joseph Musser making that same distinction?

Cristina  04:18  Yeah, he makes a distinction between tithing, consecration and United Order. These are stepping stones toward full consecration, eventually. Now, Joseph Musser makes the argument that there's a twin system of the Law of Enoch and the Law of Abraham, one being polygamy, one being the United Order.

1944 & 1953 saw Police Raids on polygamists. These were traumatic reminders that they couldn't trust authorities. Dr Cristina Rosetti details more on these police raids and why fundamentalist Mormon communities became wary of outsiders. We'll talk with Dr Cristina Rosetti about the schisms that happened following these raids. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/OoTaWOQja2I

Don’t miss our other conversations with Cristina: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cristina-rosetti/

 

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1944 & 1953 Raids

Cristina  00:34  Yeah, so he goes. In 1944, there was a raid in the community. Many prominent people go to prison in the raid. In both 1944 and 1953, both men and women go to prison. That's something a lot of people forget about. Women go to prison to for polygamy.

GT  00:55  But, they're more going after the men than the women. Aren't they?

Cristina  00:59  They are. But women go to prison for polygamy. Women are fined. There are some great pictures of very cute, dressed up, fashionable, stylish women sitting in their prison cell, looking very proud of themselves for it. I think that is something that is so important. In this period, to go to prison for polygamy is to be persecuted for your religion. You're Joseph Smith.  Even in some way to be excommunicated for polygamy, too, at this time, for some of these people, it's a badge of honor. You were willing to lose everything. You were willing to even put your blessings on the line for the cause of God. I mean, you're making a lot of martyrs out of this. So, in 1944, he goes to prison. A lot of the leadership go to prison. One of the things that happens in the prison that will eventually create early fissures in the fundamentalist movement, is all of the men know that they can get out if they just sign a loyalty oath. Half of them decide to do it. Musser is one of them. Musser signs the loyalty oath, of course...

GT  02:22  With no intention of being loyal.

Cristina  02:24  No. He's never going to. He's going to keep getting married. He's certainly going to keep telling people to get married. He has no intention of ever aligning himself with the Church, or with the state. But he signs the oath, because this is a man who's a polygamist. He has a lot of wives, a lot of children. How are you going to support people, if you're sitting in a cell? He also is running. They're all running a fundamentalist religion. They need to get out of prison. And so Musser signs it. He knows he's never going to live it. But some men, they were like, "No. We're not going to be a Wilford Woodruff of another age. We're sitting in prison for the cause of God." This causes a lot of tension that it becomes, these men who were willing to cave even though they still were polygamous, and the men who decided to stay. You can sense that if you get out of prison later than your friends and you come strolling back into town, there's going to be a little bit of resentment that they all got out. So, this will create fissures. Even today, a lot of people who grew up FLDS, or grew up Centennial will kind of make comment of, like, "Musser, who signed the oath." There's a little bit of hostility because their men, the people who become FLDS and Centennial Park did not sign the oath.

GT  03:46  Okay, because I thought Bryan told me a lot of those people were independent fundamentalists and not FLDS.

Cristina  03:55  Yeah, so the notable people who didn't were Charles Zitting and Louis Kelch.  Those are the two big guns that didn't sign the oath. A couple things come together to create the major schism that will happen after the raid, the big raid, which we'll come back to. After the raid, [there are] a couple of major significant questions. What does the president of the priesthood do? Do you oversee eternal matters?

Joseph Musser has documented Mormon fundamentalism better than nearly any other person. Dr Cristina Rosetti will discuss his post-Manifesto polygamy and his theological innovations. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/huUeh2wCzmc

Don’t miss our other conversations with Cristina: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cristina-rosetti/

 

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Joseph Musser & Post Manifesto Polygamy

Cristina  01:19  Lorin Woolley takes that, and he then continues this process where he ordains other men that are called the Council of Friends. So his dad, John Wickersham Woolley: John W. Wolley, Charles Zitting, J. Lesley Broadbent, John Y. Barlow, Joseph Musser, become the men.

GT  01:37  That's five?

Cristina  01:38  Yes. And so then, when Joseph Musser is ordained, he talks about, he was like," I was ordained an apostle to the world."  It's like a...

GT  01:48  And this is in 1921?

Cristina  01:51  Joseph Musser's ordination is 1929. Joseph Musser is excommunicated in 1921. He jumped ship to the fundamentalist movement. He starts attending these meetings and starts meeting people. Very early on, I mean, Joseph Musser was smart. He kept a diary, a very thorough diary. Because of that, the early years of the movement are really told through the pen of Joseph Musser. The Woolley story is told through the pen of Joseph Musser, because Musser is keeping the meeting minutes. Musser is writing pamphlets. Very early on, when Musser really struggles financially and to hold down a job in a time when people hate polygamists, he's losing his job. That ends up being fine in a lot of ways. Because Lorin Woolley ends up telling him, "Well, your calling is to spread the movement." Because of that, Joseph Musser ends up publishing a monthly periodical, Truth Magazine. He ends up publishing a lot of pamphlets. He ends up really being a figurehead of this movement. Eventually, as members of the council die, he does become the senior member and he's the president of the priesthood at the end of his life.

GT  03:03  Okay, so 1921 is where the first Council of Friends was ordained, Is that right? Or was it 1929?

Cristina  03:12  The ordinations happen sporadically. They're not all at one time.

GT  03:18 Which Woolley was 1921?

Cristina  03:20  That's when Lorin Woolley starts telling the story.

GT  03:22  Lorin Woolley, and so then he ordains his father next?

Cristina  03:25  We don't know if his dad is the immediate next one. I know the Musser story. (Chuckling)  Musser, I think, is actually the last one in 1929.

GT  03:35  Okay, so over the next eight years...

Cristina  03:38  But Musser was also still a member of the LDS Church until 1921, which is very late for a practicing polygamist, an unapologetic polygamist, a polygamist who is still getting married to other people, to be in the church. March 1921 is late to still be going strong.

GT  04:01  Well, because I think last time we talked a little bit about him, and you told the story about how the apostles called him in.

Cristina  04:09  Yeah, in 1909.

GT  04:10  Can you tell that again?

Cristina  04:11  Yeah, he was called into a disciplinary hearing in 1909. It was in the Salt Lake Temple. It's the longest diary entry he gives. It's an interesting diary entry because he talks about how he was called into a meeting with--Rudger Clawson was there, and Anthony W. Evans was there, and Francis Lyman was there. All these people were there. He specifically notes all these people were polygamists or have done plural marriages after the Manifesto. The beginning of his diary entry, he's like, "This is hypocrisy. What's going on?" He does something really interesting in the meeting. They asked him about plural marriage. He's unapologetic. He's not pretending he's something he's not. But during the meeting,

We're talking Mormon fundamentalism! Joseph Musser was the first fundamentalist Mormon who wrote down the unique theology (besides polygamy) that they believe. Dr. Cristina Rosetti has written a biography of this man and explains the founding members of the earliest fundamentalist communities. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/CC_AYvuZm94

Don’t miss our other conversations with Cristina: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cristina-rosetti/

 

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Retirement from Mormon Studies?

GT  01:21  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have an amazing historian who I found out yesterday said she was retiring. Go ahead and tell us who you are and where are you retiring from?

Cristina  01:36  My name is Cristina Rosetti and I am an assistant professor at Utah Tech University. Next week is my last week as an assistant professor of humanities.

GT  01:51  Wow. People are going to want to know why.

Cristina  01:54  I have finals week, but then I'm retiring.

GT  01:58  Yeah. Why are you retiring, being such a young person?

Cristina  02:02  I know, I'm retiring at 34. I'm getting married and moving to Canada.

GT  02:07  Wow. Donald Trump was just too much for you, or Joe Biden? Which one?

Cristina  02:11  I mean, last time I was on with you, I think I mentioned that. I had a boyfriend. Well, now I have a fiancé. It's the same person. We got engaged in October and I'm jumping ship, moving to Quebec. There are no Mormons anywhere near where I'm going to be.

GT  02:38  All my Quebec listeners...

Cristina  02:41  Where are you at? Because I've never seen you. I've been to Quebec now, and I've yet to see a Mormon. There were Jehovah's Witness missionaries that came to the rectory once when I was there.

GT  02:53  I'll get your address. We'll send them your way. (Chuckling)

Cristina  02:56  We're fine, thank you. I mean, there's no Mormons, and, yeah, I'm retiring. It's been really interesting to tell people that, to say the least. I mean, I have talked to Jedediah Rogers at the University of Utah Press a bit. We had been in long-standing talks on doing some kind of history of Mormon fundamentalism. Maybe that'll happen. But other than that...

GT  03:35  I'm going to twist your arm to keep you keep you in here. You can still study Mormon history, even as a retired professor.

Cristina  03:42  I can. I can. But will I?

GT  03:47  I know. We'll give you a year off and then you'll just be like, oh, I miss it.

Cristina  03:52  I just have so much gardening to do.

GT  03:54  Okay.

Cristina  03:57  Yeah, it is an interest. I mean, I was an assistant professor only for two years. The job market's rough as everyone who's ever done it knows. I was very lucky. I want to emphasize I was very lucky to get a tenure track position. I don't in any way take that for granted. I wouldn't have left had it not been, like I would have never gone back on the job market. I never would have done that again. But I met a guy who I love dearly, and he's the best person I know. So I'm leaving.

GT  04:31  Well, very good. It's an interfaith marriage. Right? Because you're Catholic and he's an Anglican.

Cristina  04:37  He is Anglican. Yeah, he's a priest in the Anglican Church of Canada,

GT  04:41  You're getting married in the Anglican Church.

Cristina  04:43  We are. The Anglican Bishop of Quebec is doing our wedding at one of his parishes. My fiancé has several parishes in Quebec and so we are getting married in one of his parishes. We did the paperwork, so it is valid, and it will be valid in the eyes of Rome, which was its own experience, so it is...

GT  05:09  Are they ever going to get back together and just kick out King Henry VIII?

Cristina  05:13  Probably not. I have joked many times that I feel like I am the unification of Western ...