What did Mark Hofmann's family think when a bomb went off? Did they think he was guilty? What was he like growing up? Michelle Stone & Diane Smith are two of Mark's cousins and knew him well. They'll talk about family lore, whether polygamy was secret in their family, and what Mark was like as a young boy and teen. Was he always a sociopath? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/2ZcOSsy3uNU

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Where did the Wise Men come from? In our final conversation with TikTok star Dr Dan McClellan, we going to discuss the birth of the devil, and get into the New Testament.  Can a rich man really get through the eye of a needle? And was Jesus friendly with the Pharisees? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/j_yk5UyvsnM

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Many scholars believe multiple authors wrote the Book of Isaiah, and some claim it was after 600 BC when Nephi left Jerusalem. Is there an Isaiah problem for the Book of Mormon? Who wrote the Book of Isaiah? Dr Dan McClellan will discuss these issues. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/R27hyFBIY4c

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We're continuing our discussion about Israelite/Canaanite religion with TikTok star Dan McClellan. Did Israel worship Baal? Is it true God had a wife? When did Israel become monotheistic? (Later than you think!) We'll also talk about God's consort. Was her name Asherah? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/n-Xq-Q6XzO0

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Data Over Dogma

GT  00:23  Do you have a newsletter or something? I probably should mention that you are a podcaster, too. Right?

Dan  00:28  I just started up a podcast. My partner and I recorded our first episode on Thursday, so that we're hoping to launch the first week of March, and it will be called the Data Over Dogma podcast. But I don't have a newsletter yet. I should, though. I have a nice email list that I use to let people know about the online classes that I'm teaching.

GT  00:52  What’s the name of your podcast?

Dan  00:53  So, Data Over Dogma is a bit of a motto that my channel has had for a long time.

GT  00:57  Yeah. And you're a TikTok star.

Dan  01:00  I claim to be a TikTok star. That's where I got my start with all of this. I noticed...

GT  01:09  I have to tell you, I've had a lot of listeners say, "You need to get Dan McClellan on.”

Dan  01:17  Well, I appreciate those listeners. And I'm glad we were finally able to get together now. And yeah, TikTok has been a fascinating experience. I noticed that there were people sharing a lot of videos on or related to the Bible and religion in the ancient world. And it didn't seem to me that there was anybody who was really in charge of what was going on with it. So, I got a TikTok account and met a bunch of wonderful people and a lot of folks who are doing their best to stem the tide of misinformation that's being spread on social media. And I thought I could add my voice to that, bring some credentials to this battle against the spread of misinformation about the study of the Bible and religion. And it's been a fun experience. Again, I've met a bunch of wonderful people. And yeah, there is a ton of work to do. I'm still trying to post on TikTok every day, at least once.

GT  02:17  I can't keep that up. I'm actually on TikTok, but I've posted about two videos. Yeah, I don't do it every day. I should get in the habit, I guess.

Dan  02:27  Well, there are a lot of folks who just lurk. And that's fine. I'm sure a lot of the people I interact with on a daily basis, I think if I look them up, either they're private, or they don't have any videos, because they're just there to comment and interact. But it's a great community. And yeah, I've expanded out to sharing those videos on Instagram and Twitter. And now I have a YouTube channel, as well, where I'm trying to share this stuff. So, it's been a great experience. And, hopefully, there's a lot more to come. I should mention that, as a result of this, I've had a number of people who, over the last, almost two years have said, "Oh, you should do online classes." So, I started doing online classes. A bunch of people said, "You should write a book." I was like, "I wrote a book." It's open access, you can read it for free. But actually, I am working on a trade volume now. So, a book for a popular audience that will talk about the development of the God of the Bible, as the different authors elaborated on and innovated on how they thought about God over time. So that'll be fun.

Gods of Israel/Canaan

GT  03:38  Cool. So, jumping back to Abraham for a second. Would it be safe to say that Abraham was like--I don't know if I should say, the God of Israel, because Israel was his son, right? Because he wouldn't have said the God of Israel, but my God, Elohim, or Adonai. I guess you say Adonai more than Elohim. Right?

Dan  03:58  Yeah. So Adonai is the substitution I use for the tetragrammaton YHWH,

Dr Dan McClellan is an Old Testament TikTok star! Was Abraham a monotheist? We're going to take a deep dive into the Bible, and find out what some scholars believe about the Bible that are different than you probably heard at Church. You won't want to miss this conversation. Check it out!

https://youtu.be/40TL5KH0AQg

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Rick Bennett went on a walking tour of Independence, MO with Matthew Turner. They found 14 Mormon historical markers ranging from the first landowner in Independence (Jacob Flournoy) to Governor Boggs' now torn-down house. I'll show you where some of the most tumultuous places were in Independence as we tour sites identified by the Missouri-Mormon Frontier Foundation.  Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/M-dm0VAB1Jo

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Congrats to Janine Bean for winning "Let's Talk about Race & Priesthood!" Also register for the upcoming conferences. JWHA Business Meeting is actually April 21, 2023.

As we conclude our conversation with Dr Paul Reeve, he tells how the 1978 revelation affected Black Women as well. We'll briefly review Jane Manning James attempt to get temple blessings, as well as find other women seeking sealing blessings. We'll also talk about how Joseph F Smith closed opportunities for blacks, and both David O McKay & Spencer Kimball's reopening opportunities. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/iQeFR6aTVJQ

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How Deep Into the Ban?

GT  00:40  Well, I can't wait for your book to come out. Show people how thick this book is. It's a tiny book, especially compared to your [other book.] How many pages is that?

Paul  00:53  Well, with all the notes and everything and the index, it's 161 pages. But, in terms of just the writing, the last page in the last chapter is page 133.

GT  01:08  Okay.

Paul  01:08  So it's short. And the chapters are short, too. This was also something that I struggled to adjust to. They wanted sort of short, pithy chapters, keep the reader moving. But I actually grew to enjoy it right after I got into it. And so, some chapters are three pages, four pages long. They address the issue, and then we move on.

GT  01:34  You could probably read that in about an hour I’ll bet, or two hours, maybe.

Paul  01:39  A couple of hours. I mean, people have sat down and just read it. I mean, I'm getting texts from people. "Hey, I just bought this and read it in a couple of hours." So, Deseret Book does have the audio version available. And I think it's says it's like a four-hour thing, if you listen to it on full speed. You can ramp it up to double speed and be done in a couple of hours.

GT  02:05  Are you the narrator, or did they get somebody else?

Paul  02:07  I'm not, no, they got someone else.

GT  02:11  So, how much history can you put into just a 130 page book? Because I have a feeling your Religion of a Different Color is much more in depth, much more detailed than this. Is that true?

Paul  02:28  It absolutely is. Yeah, of course. So, you get much more in depth. I go into outside public perception of who Latter-day Saints were, in Religion of a Different Color. And this is, there is one short chapter on that in this book, but it's largely the inside story. Religion of a Different Color tries to demonstrate the way that outsiders perceived Latter-day Saints, racially, in the 19th century, as not white enough. And you don't get the full extent of that in this. This is largely the inside story of moving away from their own black Latter-day Saint converts, towards whiteness, and the way that the racial restrictions take on a life of their own across the course of the 19th century. So yeah, I have to be really selective in the examples that I choose. And Deseret Book basically said [I need to shorten the book.] Yeah, I mean, the manuscript that I turned in, they said, "You've got to cut 10,000 words," to fit their format.

GT  03:36  How many words is that, do you know?

Paul  03:38  I can't remember what it finally came in at, but I had to cut 10,000, from what I originally submitted. And, I said, "You're already asking me to submit something that's so short. And then you're asking me to cut 10,000?”

Paul  03:53  Really, what they said was, "Cut out the multiple examples in each chapter. So, pick an example that illustrates the bigger point." I struggled with that, at first, but I actually like how it turned out, because it gives you an example to sink your teeth into. It illustrates the bigger point of the chapter.

The One Drop Rule was used to justify slavery and segregation in America. Unfortunately, it seeped into the LDS Church in the form of a ban on blacks from priesthood and temple ordinances. But did Brigham Young use the word in his famous 1852 speech to the Utah Legislature? Paul Reeve says no. Find out more in our next conversation.....

https://youtu.be/OzVtpb8pfxw

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Russell Dewey Ritchie

Paul  00:56  So we have other people who have who pass as white in the database. In the database, we have a couple of cases where people, Latter-day Saints in the 21st century have written to us and said, "Hey, we have African ancestry in our DNA in the 21st century, and we think it traces back to ancestor X or Y, and if so, we would love to have them included in the database." And we've done the research and there have been other examples like that. Russell...

GT  01:34  Stephenson?

Paul  01:35  Russell Dewey Ritchie is in the database, and he is ordained in 1971. He's in his 70s. And his father was formerly enslaved. So, he's the son...

GT  01:53  Did you say 1871 or 1971?

Paul  01:54  Correct, 1971, 1971. His father was born into slavery. So, this is the son of a slave. He was ordained in 1971. But, you know, he passed as white by that point. His father is likely the result of interracial rape and born into slavery,

GT  02:21  Because the slaveholders used to purposely impregnate slaves to get more slaves, right?

Paul  02:26  Correct.

GT  02:27  Is that probably what happened?

Paul  02:28  Well, I don't know the intent. The family has done all kinds of DNA work in this particular case. And so Russell's father, Nelson Holder Ritchie is the descendant of a white enslaver, and a black enslaved [mother.] And the circumstantial evidence suggests that it was more than likely an interracial rape and she becomes pregnant, is sold into Missouri. That's where Nelson Holder Ritchie is born. And then he shows up in the 1860s, in the home of a man by the last name of Ritchie in Kansas, who runs a stop on the Underground Railroad. And Nelson takes that as his last name. He fights in the Civil War on the side of freedom. He's a product of an interracial rape, more than likely. And then after the Civil War, he establishes a livery stable and hotel in Great Bend, Kansas, marries a white woman. Missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints take room and board at his hotel. You can predict the rest of the story. The family converts, they moved to Utah. Nelson and his wife, Annie Kellen Russell, apply to be sealed to each other. They apply for a temple admission in 1909 and are prevented because Nelson is black, and his bishop says "No. You can't." And they appeal and they say, "But our two oldest daughters have already been sealed in the Salt Lake Temple."

GT  04:20  Oh, wow.

Paul  04:21  And they had. They had. So they are, then, the product of two generations of interracial marriages, because Nelson's wife, Annie is white. He's a formerly enslaved man. Their children are light enough to pass [as white.] The two oldest daughters had moved out of the home, weren't living in the same ward, found people to marry and went to the Salt Lake Temple. No one had any questions about it. So, they were sealed. So, when Nelson and Annie wanted to be sealed as well, they said, "Well, our two oldest daughters are sealed." The bishop said "I don't care.

I'm happy to have Dr Paul Reeve back on the show! We'll talk about the earliest black Mormons who did and did not hold the priesthood. Paul has a new book published by Deseret Book titled "Let's Talk About Race and Priesthood." He will introduce the book and discuss his amazing website called "Century of Black Mormons."  It will include not only famous ones like Elijah Abel, but others you haven't heard of like his son Moroni Abel. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/jWGxwREuH3g

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Earliest Black Mormons

GT  00:36  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have one of my favorite historians. It's been a long time since he's been on the show. Some of you new listeners may not have even known that Paul was my second interview ever. Paul, could you go ahead and tell us who you are and where we are?

Paul  00:52  I'm Paul Reeve and I'm a Simmons Chair of Mormon studies in the history department at the University of Utah.

GT  01:00  Perfect. I remember the last time I talked to you, you had just received a promotion. And this is not the same office that we were in last time.

Paul  01:12  That's right.

GT  01:13  I think you've received a couple of promotions since then. Last time you were a full professor. What's happened in the last seven years?

Paul  01:20  So I am now chair of the History Department at the University of Utah. It's a three-year appointment. I'm in the first of three years as chair at the department.

GT  01:32  And that's your favorite job?

Paul  01:35  Well, I'd probably rather be in the classroom.

GT  01:40  You know, it's funny because Margaret Toscano, she's been on a couple of times, and she was department chair. And she was like, "I can't wait until I'm done with this."

Paul  01:48  Yes.

GT  01:49  What's the big deal about department chair? Why is it such a terrible job?

Paul  01:54  {Chuckles}  Well, hopefully no one from my department listens to this. It's a lot of bureaucratic work that just isn't my favorite thing.

GT  02:05  Okay. I can see that. So, you're just much more of a researcher.

Paul  02:10  Yeah, I'd rather be in the classroom and researching and writing.

GT  02:15  Well, very good. Okay. Well, you've got a new book. Now, why don't you go ahead and show it to the audience? It's a big book, you can see.

Paul  02:24  (Chuckling) It's very small.

GT  02:25  What's it called?

Paul  02:26  Let's Talk About Race and Priesthood. It's a part of Deseret Book's, "Let's talk About" series. Darius Gray wrote the foreword and I'm really honored to have his story at the beginning of the book. He's a remarkable Latter-day Saint and I'm really honored that he was willing to participate and write the foreword.

GT  02:57  Yeah, Darius is a great guy. I actually talked to him when I saw you last week at Writ & Vision. So, he's going to be on the show. But for those people who don't know who he is, could you just give a short blurb about Darius?

Paul  03:11  Yeah, Darius joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints before the 1978 revelation and has been just an important black Latter-day Saint ever since. He was a part of the original Genesis group leadership and became president of Gene...