Heterodox Out Loud

Why does a self-described “gay, atheistic Jewish guy” argue that America needs more Christianity right now? In this thought-provoking episode, Jonathan Rauch, author, Brookings Institution senior fellow, and newly appointed board member of Heterodox Academy, joins host John Tomasi for an insightful discussion recorded in Washington, D.C.

Jonathan reflects on his new book, Cross Purposes, a contrarian apology for the Christian values that once helped sustain both American self-government and its universities. Drawing from personal narratives, constitutional history, and contemporary social fractures, Rauch argues that the decline of robust, virtue-based Christianity and the politicization of faith have contributed to polarization, anxiety, and a crisis of institutional trust.

Jonathan and John discuss Tocqueville’s analysis of individualism, the “God-shaped hole” now filled by less constructive substitutes, and what both faith and scholarship can contribute to a pluralistic republic. Join us for the conversation and explore practical and philosophical pathways to revive the transformative power of both religious and academic institutions.

In This Episode:

💥 Three core Christian virtues as a civic foundation

💥 The perils of “thin,” “sharp,” and “thick” Christianity

💥 Tocqueville, individualism, and the promise of civil society

💥 The hollowing of purpose and scholarly virtue in higher education

💥 Faith, viewpoint diversity, and restoring vibrant campus culture

💥 Challenges and opportunities for self-reform in academia

Read Jonathan’s latest book, Cross Purposes: https://a.co/d/dRaWsfL

Check out more about the Brookings Institution: https://www.brookings.edu/

About Jonathan:

Jonathan Rauch is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a contributing writer for The Atlantic, renowned for his incisive commentary on public policy, culture, and governance. He has authored several influential books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth (2021), which delves into the challenges of disinformation and the importance of truth in democratic societies. His latest book, Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy (2025), examines the evolving relationship between American Christianity and liberal democracy, arguing that the decline of religious institutions has significant implications for democratic health. Rauch's extensive body of work reflects his commitment to exploring complex societal issues, making him a prominent voice in contemporary discussions on democracy, religion, and public discourse. 

In January 2025, Rauch was appointed to the Board of Directors of Heterodox Academy (HxA), 

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Trust in universities has cratered, ideological divisions are deepening, and the future of higher education is hotly contested. How do we repair our academic institutions without tearing them down entirely? Today on Heterodox Out Loud, host John Tomasi welcomes Michael Roth, President of Wesleyan University, historian, and esteemed thought leader on liberal education, for a frank and probing dialogue.

Drawing on recent Gallup polling data, Michael and John examine the collapse of public trust in higher education, particularly among conservatives, and the orchestrated efforts across the spectrum to delegitimize academic institutions. Michael discusses the double bind facing universities: the hard-won gains in gender, racial, and religious inclusion overlaying a stark decline in viewpoint and ideological diversity among faculty and students.

The discussion traverses the enduring tensions between diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives and the imperative of open inquiry. Roth critiques both anti-elitist grievance-mongering and the insularity of academic circles, arguing for an educational environment that prizes rigorous debate, intellectual pluralism, and genuine mutual respect. Together, Tomasi and Roth confront thorny questions: How do universities maintain their relevance in a polarized society? Is the narrowing of acceptable discourse stifling academic innovation? And what role should university leaders play amid mounting political interventions and societal pressures?

In This Episode:

💥 Declining trust in higher education due to perceptions of elitism and delegitimation

💥 Grievance politics influencing perspectives from both the left and right

💥 Reduced viewpoint and ideological diversity among faculty members

💥 Overreaching DEI initiatives leading to unintended consequences

💥 Structural barriers hindering ideological pluralism in hiring and admissions practices

💥 University leadership's role in managing political pressure and rebuilding trust through debate

About Michael:

Michael S. Roth, a historian, curator, and advocate for liberal education, has served as the 16th president of Wesleyan University since July 1, 2007. An alumnus of Wesleyan (Class of 1978), graduating summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa, before earning a Ph.D. in history from Princeton University in 1984.

Before returning to Wesleyan, Roth held several prominent academic positions, including president of the California College of the Arts, associate director of the Getty Research Institute, and founding director of the Scripps College Humanities Institute. His scholarly work focuses on how individuals and societies interpret the past, and he has authored numerous books, such as Beyond the University: Why Liberal Education Matters and Safe Enough Spaces: A Pragmatist’s Approach to Inclusion, Free Speech, and Political Correctness on College Campuses.

A vocal proponent of academic freedom, Roth has been recognized for his defense of higher education institutions against political pressures. In 2025, he received the PEN/Benenson Courage Award for his commitment to upholding the independence of colleges and universities.

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Can artificial intelligence transform how we navigate the most challenging dialogues on campus? Join us for a thought-provoking episode featuring philosopher and educator Simon Cullen, as he unveils his pioneering work at the intersection of education, technology, and constructive disagreement.

In conversation with John Tomasi, Simon explores how open inquiry is both advanced and imperiled by disagreement, and describes his academic journey from Australia to Princeton and Carnegie Mellon. Central to the discussion is ‘Sway’ an AI-powered platform developed by Simon and his team to foster rigorous, evidence-based dialogue among students on controversial topics. Sway intelligently pairs students with opposing views and acts as a “guide on the side,” scaffolding reasoning, encouraging intellectual humility, and ensuring that exchanges remain constructive and charitable. Simon shares the empirical findings from thousands of Sway-mediated dialogues, where measurable increases in students’ openness, comfort, and analytical reasoning have been observed—even on divisive subjects like gender, immigration, and the Israel-Palestine conflict.

In This Episode:

💥 The pedagogical importance of constructive disagreement and argument visualization

💥 The design and implementation of Sway: an AI tool for dialogue across differences

💥 Empirical research on autonomy, self-censorship, and openness to opposing viewpoints

💥 Strategies for motivating student engagement in difficult conversations

💥 Scalable, evidence-based methods for promoting viewpoint diversity in higher education

Want to experience Sway for yourself? You can instantly start a conversation—no account, no signup, no hassle. Just generate a link, share it with a friend (or a friendly opponent), and jump straight into a thoughtful dialogue.

Read more about research findings and reports

Explore Simon’s Argument Mapping Tool: Mindmup.com

About Simon:

Simon Cullen is a faculty member, Dean's Innovation Scholar, and Artificial Intelligence and Education Fellow at Carnegie Mellon University. He developed the award-winning "Dangerous Ideas in Science and Society" course and serves as founding co-chair of CMU's Heterodox Community. Simon's innovative research combines philosophy, cognitive science, and educational technology to improve reasoning and communication across moral and political divides. He is the co-developer of "Sway,” a chat platform that uses AI to facilitate constructive dialogue between students with differing viewpoints. His research has been published in Science Advances, Nature Science of Learning, Cognition, and the Review of Philosophy and Psychology. He holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University and specializes in the psychology and pedagogy of reasoning, and evidence-based approaches to promoting open inquiry in higher education. Next year, Simon will be a Faculty Research Fellow at the Segal Center for Academic Pluralism in New York City.

Learn more about Simon

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How can sociology reclaim its commitment to rigorous inquiry and viewpoint diversity? Today, John Tomasi sits with Jukka Savolainen, Ph.D., Sociology professor at Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan, and the moderator of the Heterodox Academy’s Sociology community. They discuss the discipline's current challenges, including ideological bias and lack of viewpoint diversity, and explore potential paths toward reform.    

Jukka shares his journey into sociology and his decision to leave Finland to pursue a PhD in the United States due to concerns about postmodernist influences in Finnish sociology. He addresses the core aims of sociology, its present state of fragmentation, and the impact of ideological bias on research and discourse. Jukka highlights the importance of empirical evidence and viewpoint diversity while pointing out taboos and restrictions on certain topics within the field.

The conversation also examines the role of external interventions, using the example of the Danish government's restructuring of the sociology department at Copenhagen University in the 1980s, and the more recent actions by the state of Florida.

In This Episode:

💥 The ideological capture of sociology and its impact on research

💥 The lack of viewpoint diversity in the field

💥 The importance of empirical evidence and rigorous methodology

💥 Efforts to reform sociology from within

💥 The role of external intervention in addressing systemic problems

💥 The case of Mark Regnerus's controversial study on same-sex parenting

About Jukka:

Jukka Savolainen is a professor of sociology and criminology at Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan, holding a dual appointment in the departments of Sociology and Criminology & Criminal Justice. He earned his Ph.D. in sociology from the State University of New York at Albany and an M.Soc.Sci. from the University of Helsinki. His research focuses on criminology, demography, cross-national comparisons, and the sociology of violence. Savolainen has been a vocal critic of ideological conformity in academia, particularly within the field of sociology, and is an active member of Heterodox Academy, where he serves as a moderator of its sociology community. He has also contributed essays to outlets like Quillette and the National Association of Scholars, challenging prevailing narratives on race, policing, and academic freedom. Previously, Savolainen served as Director of the National Archive of Criminal Justice Data at the University of Michigan's Institute for Social Research.

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How did America’s universities lose the trust of the public, and what will it take to restore faith in higher education? In this episode, we are joined by Benjamin and Jenna Storey, renowned scholars, co-authors, and directors at the American Enterprise Institute’s Program on the Future of the American University. Together with host John Tomasi, they undertake a searching examination of the forces eroding confidence in universities and offer a roadmap for rebuilding their legitimacy and civic purpose.

The conversation draws on the Storeys’ personal journeys through academia, they explore how universities have shifted away from their civic mission, the implications of declining viewpoint diversity, and the urgent need to re-envision liberal education in a polarized era. Their discussion critically engages with recent initiatives, including the founding of university-level Schools of Civic Thought, and emphasizes both the perils and promise of institutional reform amidst increasing political and public scrutiny.

Read the report: “Civic: A Proposal for University Level Civic Education” (AEI, December 2023)

In This Episode:

💥 The crisis of public trust and universities’ civic responsibilities

💥 The decline of viewpoint and ideological diversity in academia

💥 Innovative models for enhancing open inquiry and faculty diversity

💥 The case for new academic structures—Schools of Civic Thought

💥 Navigating political pressures and governmental reform efforts

💥 The enduring value of liberal education and practical wisdom

About Benjamin & Jenna:

Benjamin Storey, Ph.D, is a senior fellow in Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI). He is concurrently a research fellow at the Civitas Institute at the University of Texas at Austin. At AEI, he focuses on the culture of higher education, the nature of liberal and civic education, and efforts to enhance viewpoint diversity on college and university campuses. He co-organizes AEI’s conference series on the Future of the American University and its workshop on the Conservative Intellectual Tradition for University Faculty.

Jenna Silber Storey, Ph.D, is a senior fellow in the Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies department at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where she concentrates on political philosophy, civil society, classical schools, and higher education. She is also the co-organizer of a conference series on the future of the American university. Dr. Storey is concurrently a research fellow at the Civitas Institute at the University of Texas at Austin, and a Tocqueville scholar at Furman University, where she was previously research professor, assistant professor in politics and international affairs, and the executive director of the Tocqueville Program.

Dr. Storey is the coauthor, with her husband, Benjamin Storey, of Why We Are Restless: On the Modern Quest for Contentment (Princeton University Press, 2021). Together, the Storeys are working on a book titled The Art of Choosing: How Liberal Education Should Prepare You for Life.

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Where should the line be drawn between the government's role in stopping discrimination and a university's right to run itself? Today on Heterodox Out Loud, John Tomasi sits down with Joe Cohn, Policy Director at Heterodox Academy, to discuss the complexities of federal intervention in higher education.

Cohn, a First Amendment expert, delves into the implications of recent federal actions, including those by the Trump administration, to combat anti-Semitism and enforce Title VI of the Civil Rights Act. They explore the tension between academic freedom and the necessity of preventing discrimination, examining specific cases of funding pauses and immigration enforcement actions. Cohn argues for procedural rigor in federal oversight to protect both institutional autonomy and individual rights, advocating for persuasion over censorship in addressing bigotry.

In This Episode:

💥 Trump’s policies on DEI and gender ideology    

💥 How Title VI enforcement impacts university funding    

💥 Free speech vs. discrimination on campus    

💥 Immigration enforcement and academic freedom    

💥 Importance of constructive disagreement and viewpoint diversity

About Joe:

Joe Cohn is the inaugural Director of Policy at Heterodox Academy, where he leads efforts to advance open inquiry, viewpoint diversity, and constructive disagreement through institutional and legislative reforms in higher education. An attorney specializing in civil liberties, Joe holds a JD and a Master’s in Government Administration from the University of Pennsylvania. He has served as a staff attorney for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, the AIDS Law Project of Pennsylvania, and as interim legal director for ACLU affiliates in Nevada and Utah. He also taught trial advocacy as an adjunct professor at Penn Law. Before joining HxA, Joe spent 12 years as Legislative and Policy Director at the Foundation for Individual Rights (FIRE), where he led a team focused on free speech and civil liberties in higher education, regularly engaging lawmakers and testifying nationwide.

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What does it mean for a university to become a battleground against deep-seated prejudices and historical tensions? In today’s episode, we dive into these challenging questions with our distinguished guest, Cary Nelson, a celebrated scholar and ardent advocate for academic freedom.

Nelson shares his insights on the intersection of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism in academia, a topic explored in his new book, "Mindless: What Happened to Universities?" The conversation examines how the lines between critique of Israel and hostility towards Jewish students blur, becoming toxic and divisive forces across campuses, from historical shifts that turned post-1948 anti-Zionism into a rejection of Israel's existence to the phenomenon of hatred and the campus protests that undermine foundational academic values. Nelson calls for reclaiming the core purpose of academia as a community of imperfect learners where dialogue and understanding prevail.

In This Episode:

• Historical context of anti-Zionism and its transformation into anti-Semitism
• The unique pressures faced by Jewish students on campuses
• The role of social media in spreading campus protests
• Distinctions between psychological and intellectual safety in Academia
• The undermining of the university's role as a space for diverse perspectives

About Cary:

Cary Nelson is Jubilee Professor of Liberal Arts & Sciences Emeritus at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and an affiliated faculty member at the University of Haifa. He holds an honorary doctorate from Ben Gurion University of the Negev. Over his distinguished career, Nelson has authored or edited 36 books and published over 400 essays, focusing on modern poetry, critical theory, the politics of higher education, and issues related to antisemitism and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. From 2006 to 2012, he served as president of the American Association of University Professors (AAUP), advocating for academic freedom and shared governance. Nelson’s latest work, “Mindless: What Happened to Universities?”, published on March 6, 2025, examines how universities have deviated from their commitment to shared intellectual principles, leading to environments where extremism and intolerance can flourish.

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How is Trump's executive order redefining the language permissible in scientific research, and what does it mean for academic freedom? Today, we examine the complexities surrounding scientific research under shifting political landscapes with Ivan Oransky, a seasoned medical journalist and co-founder of Retraction Watch. Oransky discusses the implications of President Trump's executive orders and how it has sent ripples throughout the scientific community, causing researchers to reconsider their work amidst existential uncertainties.

Oransky explores the nuanced relationship between government funding and scientific inquiry. This episode unpacks the historical precedents of government involvement in research, tracing back to the 1940s, and examines the mounting challenges faced by scientists under the recent policy changes. Oransky provides a critical analysis of how such directives potentially stifle open inquiry and drive talented researchers away, ultimately impacting the future landscape of scientific discovery.

In This Episode:

• Implications of Trump's executive orders on scientific research
• Historical context of government funding in scientific research
• The impact of political climates on scientific inquiry and transparency
• Challenges of anticipatory obedience within research communities
• Ivan Oransky's insights on sustaining open and rigorous scientific dialogue

About Ivan:

Ivan Oransky, MD, is the co-founder of Retraction Watch, the Editor in Chief of The Transmitter, and a Distinguished Journalist in Residence at New York University’s Carter Journalism Institute, where he teaches medical journalism. He has held leadership positions at Medscape, MedPage Today, Reuters Health, Scientific American, and The Scientist. A former president of the Association of Health Care Journalists from 2017 to 2021, Oransky earned his bachelor’s degree from Harvard and an MD from NYU School of Medicine. His contributions to biomedical communication have earned him accolades, including the John P. McGovern Award and commendation from the John Maddox Prize judges for his work at Retraction Watch.

Read HXA's newsletter Free the Inquiry: https://heterodoxacademy.substack.com/

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What happens when mental health care becomes intertwined with prevailing political ideologies and biases? Today on Heterodox Out Loud, we’re joined by Andrew Hartz, president and founder of the Open Therapy Institute and a long-term member of Heterodox Academy. Andrew joins John Tomasi to explore the increasing prevalence of sociopolitical bias within the realm of mental health therapy.

Andrew shares his motivations for founding the Open Therapy Institute, highlighting the concerning shifts in therapy practices caused by activist-oriented approaches and sociopolitical biases. He discusses the need for a more balanced, patient-centered therapeutic approach that respects diverse perspectives without conflating therapy with broader ideological battles. Andrew sheds light on the startling trend of therapists dismissing patients due to their political views and the broader issue of bias pervading mental health training and practice.

In This Episode:

• The rise of sociopolitical bias in mental health therapy
• The four levels of bias impacting therapists
• The incompatibility of patient-centered therapy with politically driven judgment
• The influence of activist-oriented norms in therapeutic contexts
• The role and objectives of the Open Therapy Institute
• Viewpoint diversity and the challenges faced by conservative therapists

For more insights and updates from the Open Therapy Institute, visit their website: https://www.opentherapyinstitute.org/

About Andrew:

Andrew Hartz, Ph.D, is a practicing clinical psychologist. He was formerly a professor in the clinical psychology doctoral program at Long Island University, where he also completed his Ph.D. He completed his clinical internship at Columbia University Medical Center, and he also completed training at Mount Sinai Hospital and the William Alanson White Institute. For several years, he’s written about political issues and mental health for outlets such as the Wall Street Journal, City Journal, Discourse, the Federalist, Real Clear Education, Heterodox Academy, and the New York Post. 

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Can meaningful conversations bridge the divide in a polarized world? In today's episode, we explore the transformative power of radical curiosity with Shira Hoffer, a senior at Harvard University and founder of the Institute for Multipartisan Education. Join host John Tomasi, as they delve into the potential of dialogue in reducing societal hate and fostering understanding.

Shira Hoffer shares her inspirational journey from idealistic student to social entrepreneur, recounting the pivotal experiences that led to the creation of the Hotline for Israel-Palestine. This initiative connects individuals with diverse perspectives in response to the tense climate at Harvard following the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel. Shira emphasizes the role of curiosity in addressing complex conflicts and outlines her efforts to encourage open, non-judgmental discourse across contentious societal issues.

In This Episode:

• Curiosity as a tool against polarization
• Creating dialogue to reduce misunderstandings
• Student-led initiatives on curiosity in education
• Religious influence on open-mindedness in students

About Shira:

Shira Hoffer is a senior at Harvard College studying Social Studies and Religion, and the founder and Executive Director of the Institute for Multipartisan Education. She served on Harvard’s Intellectual Vitality Committee for two years, is a former fellow and research assistant at the Edmond and Lily Safra Center for Ethics’ Intercollegiate Civil Disagreement Program, and is a practicing mediator in Massachusetts courts. Her senior thesis explores the contemporary relationship between religious identity and speech behaviors on US college campuses.

Follow Shira on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shira-hoffer/

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