How do schools navigate the complexities of inclusion, polarization, and freedom of expression while fostering a vibrant learning environment? Today, John Austin, Head of School at Deerfield Academy, joins Heterodox Out Loud to explore these questions and share insights from the groundbreaking report, Thriving in a World of Pluralistic Contention: A Framework for Schools.

John reflects on his unique journey from aspiring surfer to educational leader, shaping student experiences across continents, including his tenure at King’s Academy in Jordan. Drawing from decades of experience, John delves into the challenges and opportunities presented by diversity in schools, discussing how institutions can promote dialogue, trust, and intellectual growth through structured initiatives like randomized community meals and robust expressive frameworks. John also sheds light on the collaborative process behind the report and its three foundational pillars: disciplined nonpartisanship, expressive freedom, and intellectual diversity.

In This Episode:

• Independent schools as laboratories for educational innovation
• Balancing inclusivity with robust academic inquiry
• The significance of Robert Putnam’s social capital theory
• Strategies for fostering meaningful dialogue across differences
• The transformative potential of conscientious, courageous, and tolerant expression

About John:

Dr. John Austin became Deerfield Academy’s 56th Head of School in July of 2019. Prior to Deerfield, Dr. Austin served as Headmaster at King’s Academy in Madaba, Jordan, and before that as Academic Dean at St. Andrew’s School in Middletown, Delaware, where he joined the faculty in 1987. A graduate of Williams College, he holds a Master of Arts, Master of Philosophy, and Doctoral degrees in English and Comparative Literature from Columbia University, along with a Master’s degree from the Bread Loaf School of English at Middlebury College. Last year, with funding from an E.E. Ford Foundation grant, Dr. Austin convened a group of renowned independent school leaders from across the United States to develop a framework for enhancing the expressive freedom of students, fostering in them habits of curiosity and critical analysis, and preparing them to thrive in a world of pluralistic contention. The resulting work, authored by Dr. Austin, Thriving in a World of Pluralistic Contention: A Framework for Schools, was published in May of 2024.

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How did a classicist's journey through Greco-Roman literature and Arabic studies shape his unique approach to academia? Today's episode features Elisha Russ-Fishbane, associate professor at NYU and research director at the Center for the Study of Antisemitism.

In this engaging conversation, Elisha recounts his academic journey that began with a love for Greco-Roman literature and took him through the high intellectual demands set by mentors like Vatican Latinist Reginald Foster. He shares how the tragic events of September 11 influenced his study of Judaeo-Arabic classics, blending intense scholarly engagement with personal identity as an observant Jew.

Listening to this episode, you'll grasp the historical and contemporary significance of open inquiry and intellectual humility within higher education. Elisha’s reflections promise insight and inspiration for anyone dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge.

In This Episode:

• Influence of classical studies and mentors
• September 11th’s impact on academic and personal identity
• Insights from medieval Jewish-Muslim intellectual interactions
• Maimonides' approach to intellectual humility and cross-cultural truth-seeking
• Reflections on higher education's purpose versus career-focused outcomes
• Challenges and optimism in navigating open dialogue in contemporary academia
• Commitment to teaching and fostering human connections in academia

About Elisha:

Elisha Russ-Fishbane, Associate Professor of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at NYU and Research Director of NYU's Center for the Study of Antisemitism, is a scholar of medieval Jewish history focusing on Jewish-Muslim and Jewish-Christian interaction and exchange. His undergraduate courses include the history of antisemitism, Jewish-Muslim relations, and a course on the aims of higher education and the past, present, and future of universities, called "The University: What It Was, What It Is, What It Could Be.” Elisha is currently a participant in the Open Inquiry Workshop at the Heterodox Academy's Segal Center for Academic Pluralism.

Elisha is the author of Judaism, Sufism, and the Pietists of Medieval Egypt: A Study of Abraham Maimonides and His Circle (Oxford University Press, 2015) and Ageing in Medieval Jewish Culture (The Littman Library of Jewish Civilization, 2022), and is currently at work on a book on Islam in the medieval Jewish imagination.

Contact Elisha: [email protected]

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What new vision can pluralism bring to today’s universities? Today, founder of Interfaith America Eboo Patel, joins John to discuss how pluralism can be a guiding principle in transforming higher education away from rigid ideological confines towards a more inclusive and dynamic intellectual space.

Eboo shares his journey to understanding pluralism. He views pluralism as a way to embrace one’s identity while valuing others and notes that the approach to anti-racism in some universities is shifting from helpful to controlling. Ebo believes that pluralism can balance extreme views by fostering intellectual diversity and respectful dialogue. He also suggests ways to create "Pluralist Universities," such as starting pluralism fellowships, doing research for future diversity needs, and developing a liberal arts curriculum that reflects a diverse society.

In This Episode:

• Evolution of anti-racism from perspective to paradigm to coercive regime
• Personal narratives and pluralism at the Nantucket Project
• Pluralism as navigating between "wokeness" and "whitewashing"
• Implementation of pluralism in universities
• Historical roots and modern applications of pluralism
• Roles of intellectual, identity, values, and agonistic pluralism in higher education
• Critique of overemphasis on victimhood in diversity discussions

For further reading, refer to Eboo Patel's co-authored article with Rebecca Russo on pluralism practices at universities. 

About Eboo:

Eboo Patel is a civic leader who believes that religious diversity is an essential and inspiring dimension of American democracy. Named “one of America’s best leaders” by U.S. News and World Report, Eboo is the Founder and President of Interfaith America, the leading interfaith organization in the United States. Under his leadership, Interfaith America has worked with governments, universities, private companies, and civic organizations to make faith a bridge of cooperation rather than a barrier of division. 

Eboo served on President Obama’s Inaugural Faith Council, has given hundreds of keynote addresses, and has written five books, including We Need to Build: Field Notes for Diverse Democracy. He is an Ashoka Fellow and holds a doctorate in the sociology of religion from Oxford University, where he studied on a Rhodes scholarship. Eboo lives in Chicago with his wife, Shehnaz, and their two sons.

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How does political intervention shape the landscape of higher education? Today, our guest is Keith Whittington, Ph.D, David Boies Professor of Law at Yale Law School and director of the Center for Academic Freedom. In this episode, host John Tomasi and Keith Whittington discuss the increasingly contentious legislative interventions in higher education, beginning with Florida's "Stop Woke Act." Whittington compares today's interventions to past efforts, discussing implications for academic freedom, First Amendment rights, and university regulation.

Whittington shares his experiences and the work of the Academic Freedom Alliance (AFA), emphasizing the importance of defending speech rights in academia. The episode also examines legislative trends, government control in public vs. private education, and challenges arising from modern technology and increased visibility of academic speech. Join us for some insights into the critical intersection of politics, law, and academia, emphasizing the necessity for open discourse and viewpoint diversity on university campuses.

In This Episode:

• Whittington's new book, "You Can't Teach That"
• The mission and efforts of the Academic Freedom Alliance (AFA)
• An overview of Florida's "Stop Woke Act" and its implications
• Historical legislative interventions in education
• The role of the American Association of University Professors (AAUP) and the evolution of academic freedom
• First Amendment challenges related to classroom speech at public and private institutions
• The impact of political and ideological trends on higher education

About Keith:

Keith E. Whittington, Ph.D, is the David Boies Professor of Law at Yale Law School. Whittington’s teaching and scholarship span American constitutional theory, American political and constitutional history, judicial politics, the presidency, and free speech and the law. He is the author of You Can't Teach That! The Battle Over University Classrooms (2024), Repugnant Laws: Judicial Review of Acts of Congress from the Founding to the Present (2019), and Speak Freely: Why Universities Must Defend Free Speech (2018), as well as Constitutional Interpretation (1999), Political Foundations of Judicial Supremacy (2007), and other works on constitutional theory and law and politics.

Whittington serves as Founding Chair of the Academic Freedom Alliance’s Academic Committee and as a Hoover Institution Visiting Fellow. He has been a John M. Olin Foundation Faculty Fellow, an American Council of Learned Societies Junior Faculty Fellow, a National Center for Free Speech and Civic Engagement Fellow, and a Visiting Scholar at the Social Philosophy and Policy Center. A member of the American Academy of the Arts and Sciences, Whittington served on the Presidential Commission on the Supreme Court of the United States. 

Check out Keith's new book: You Can't Teach That!

Follow Keith on X: https://x.com/kewhittington

Find out more about the American Association of University Professors

Find out more about the Academic Freedom Alliance

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What happens when the guardians of cultural narratives and societal norms become inseparable from the very hierarchies they critique? Today, we explore the concept of "symbolic capitalists" with Musa al-Gharbi, author of We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite and assistant professor at the School of Communication and Journalism at Stony Brook University.

In this conversation, Musa discusses the role of symbolic capitalists in perpetuating societal inequalities and how their influence extends to academia and media. His latest book, "We Have Never Been Woke," provides a radical yet introspective take on these themes. Drawing from his experiences at elite institutions like Columbia University, he highlights the paradoxes and internal contradictions of symbolic capitalism. Join us as Musa al-Gharbi articulates the complicity of the professional-managerial class in societal injustices and reflects on the role of identity and networks in shaping academic and professional paths.

In This Episode:

• Definition and impact of symbolic capitalists
• Collaboration between symbolic and traditional capitalists
• Moral and ethical implications of symbolic professions
• The interplay between academia and elite credentialing
• Disparities within symbolic professions
• Exploitation of adjunct professors in higher education
• Historical context of social justice movements among symbolic capitalists
• The symbolic performance of advocacy vs. direct action
• Revisiting the relationship between personal success and systemic inequality

About Musa:

Musa al-Gharbi, Ph.D., is the Daniel Bell Research Fellow at Heterodox Academy, and an assistant professor of journalism, communication and sociology at Stony Brook University. Musa is the Author of We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite, published by Princeton University Press. He is a columnist for The Guardian and his writing has also appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, and The Atlantic, among other publications. Find Musa on X at @Musa_alGharbi and on Substack. Learn more about Musa at: https://musaalgharbi.com/musa-al-gharbi/biography/

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Is the principle of free speech being weaponized to legitimize harmful ideologies like racism, sexism, and transphobia? What happens when the sanctity of free speech collides with the complexities of societal power dynamics? In today's episode, we navigate this intricate terrain with Anthony Leaker, a senior lecturer in culture and critical theory at the University of Brighton, and the author of "Against Free Speech." John Tomasi and Anthony’s conversation revolves around the contentious and often polarized discussions surrounding free speech on university campuses.

Anthony challenges liberal ideals and advocates for a nuanced interrogation of free speech, particularly how it has been historically weaponized to maintain power imbalances. Through a thought-provoking dialogue, Anthony and John explore how free speech and reason, historically viewed as pillars of liberal democracy, can sometimes obscure deep-seated structural inequalities.

In This Episode:

• The defense of free speech versus power imbalances
• Historical critiques from John Stuart Mill and Herbert Marcuse
• The role of social media and algorithms in perpetuating power structures
• Contextual application of free speech in various settings
• The legitimacy and impact of deplatforming on campus
• The narrative of students' sensitivity and grievances
• Affirmative action and ideological imbalances in universities

About Anthony:

Anthony Leaker is a principal lecturer in cultural and critical theory at the University of Brighton. His academic work primarily focuses on political philosophy, critical theory, and issues surrounding free speech and its societal implications. Leaker is best known for his book Against Free Speech (2020), where he argues that the traditional liberal defense of free speech is often co-opted to serve right-wing political agendas and justify the marginalization of oppressed groups.

In Against Free Speech, Leaker critiques the way free speech is invoked in modern political debates, particularly how it has been used to legitimize reactionary movements and suppress marginalized voices. He explores contemporary events such as the Charlie Hebdo attacks, Brexit, and the rise of Donald Trump to analyze how free speech is frequently framed as a neutral right, when in reality, it can be a tool of power structures.

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What is the real purpose of a university—truth-seeking or molding active citizens? Are university campuses becoming echo chambers, leading to self-censorship among not just conservatives but liberals too?

Today's guest is Amna Khalid, an esteemed Associate Professor of History at Carleton College and a prominent voice within the Heterodox Academy (HxA) community. Together, John Tomasi and Amna explore this multifaceted question. They discuss the evolving role of universities, the interplay of critical inquiry and citizenship, and the impact of neoliberal trends on campus culture.

Amna brings a wealth of experience and academic insight. She shares her perspectives on the necessity of preserving higher education's autonomy while addressing present-day challenges, such as campus speech restrictions and the contentious implementation of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives.

In This Episode:

• The dual mission of universities: critical inquiry and citizenship
• Campus speech restrictions and the self-censorship challenge
• The impact of neoliberalism on diversity initiatives in higher education
• Student entitlement and the consumerist mindset in academia
• The essential role of academic expertise in shaping educational experiences
• Legislative interference and academic freedom
• The need for balanced, viewpoint-neutral reforms in higher education
• Case examples highlighting challenges faced by faculty and institutions

Follow Amna on X here: https://x.com/AmnaUncensored

About Amna:

Amna Khalid is an Associate Professor in the Department of History at Carleton College in Northfield, Minnesota. She specializes in modern South Asian history, the history of medicine and the global history of free expression. Amna is the author of multiple book chapters on the history of public health in nineteenth-century India, with an emphasis on the connections between Hindu pilgrimages and the spread of epidemics. Born in Pakistan, Amna completed her Bachelor's Degree at Lahore University of Management Sciences. She went on to earn an M.Phil. in Development Studies and a D.Phil. in History from Oxford University. Growing up under a series of military dictatorships, Amna has a strong interest in issues relating to censorship and free expression. She speaks frequently on academic freedom, free speech and campus politics at colleges and universities as well as at professional conferences. Her essays and commentaries on these same issues have appeared in outlets such as the Chronicle of Higher Education, the Conversation, Inside Higher Ed and the New Republic. She hosts a podcast and accompanying blog called "Banished," which explores censorship in the past and present. Amna was a Fellow at the University of California National Center for Free Speech and Civic Engagement during the 2022-2023 academic-year, along with her Carleton colleague Jeff Snyder​. They focused on threats to academic freedom in Florida, the state at the epicenter of the conservative movement to encourage state intervention in public school classrooms. Based on interviews Khalid and Snyder conducted with Florida faculty members, they submitted an amicus brief supporting the plaintiffs who are challenging the Stop WOKE Act.

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What happens when public policy meets the complex world of modern gender identity? Our guest today is Kathleen Stock, a former professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex, author of the critically-acclaimed "Material Girls", and an Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE) awardee. Kathleen joins host John Tomasi to navigate the often-tense intersection of trans rights, gender identity, and academic freedom. Despite facing protests, security threats, and professional challenges, Kathleen steadfastly advocates for open inquiry and reasoned debate. 

Today, John and Kathleen discuss the controversial landscape of transgender issues. Kathleen criticizes the medicalization of gender questioning and the societal pressure it places on individuals. She explains how academic and societal frameworks have rapidly evolved with the influence of activism, particularly examining the ramifications for single-sex spaces and public policies.

In This Episode:

• Criticism of the medicalization of gender questioning
• The societal impact of Stonewall’s policy changes and the Gender Recognition Act
• Challenges faced by Kathleen in professional settings due to her views
• Debates over the inclusion of trans women in single-sex spaces and sports
• The role of free speech and reason in academic discourse
• Concerns for the future of universities and academic freedom

Follow Kathleen on X here: https://x.com/Docstockk

Check out her book Material Girls: https://a.co/d/02sKzGz9

About Kathleen:

Kathleen Stock is a contributing writer at UnHerd and a co-director of The Lesbian Project. She is the author of Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism (Little Brown 2021) and Only Imagine: Fiction, Interpretation and Imagination (Oxford University Press 2017). Until 2021, she was a Professor of Philosophy at Sussex University. In the last few years, she has written for UK national publications on a range of issues, especially on sex, gender, and women's rights. In 2024, she was highly commended for her UnHerd columns at the UK Press Awards; in 2022, she was voted World’s Top Thinker in Prospect Magazine. She was awarded an Officer of the Order of the British Empire for services to higher education in 2020.

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What happens when foundational scientific concepts clash with modern identity politics? Today, our guest is Elizabeth Weiss, professor emeritus of anthropology at San José State University, Segal Center research fellow, and a renowned author. Her latest book, "On the War Path: My Battles with Indians, Pretendians, and Woke Warriors", is now available.

Weiss recounts her tumultuous journey through academia and the underlying conflicts within anthropology. These conflicts range from the debate between scientific knowledge and postmodern truths to the intersection of identity politics with the discipline. She also discusses the controversy surrounding the cancellation of a panel on the concept of binary sex by major anthropological associations, only for it to gain global attention after being reinstated.

Join us as Elizabeth Weiss shares her steadfast commitment to objective knowledge and truth, her experiences with being canceled, and her aspirations for reform within the field of anthropology.

In This Episode:

• Controversy over the binary concept of sex
• Retraction of anthropology panel on sex
• Elizabeth Weiss's academic journey and research
• Challenges in anthropology and repatriation laws
• Elizabeth Weiss's lawsuit and retirement settlement

Follow Elizabeth on X here: https://twitter.com/eweissunburied

Check out her latest book: https://a.co/d/9Os3MGa

About Elizabeth:

Elizabeth Weiss is professor emeritus of anthropology at San José State University. She's a 2023-2024 Faculty Fellow at the Mike & Sofia Segal Center for Academic Pluralism. She is on the board of the National Association of Scholars. Her latest book is On the Warpath: My Battles with Indians, Pretendians, and Woke Warriors (Academic Press, 2024).

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Can emotional connections to our identities justify restrictions on free speech? This provocative episode of Heterodox Out Loud explores the deep tension between personal relationships and public discussions. Host John Tomasi sits down with Jilian Lederman, a graduate of Brown University and a strong advocate for free speech. Together, they examine the complex landscape of free expression on university campuses, focusing on the oppressor-oppressed dynamic and its impact on intellectual diversity and dialogue.

Jilian shares her experiences in political discourse and pro-Israel advocacy, highlighting the intimidation and harassment faced by Jewish and other marginalized students. We also explore her op-ed for The New York Times and her efforts to promote open inquiry and robust debate through various initiatives and student organizations. The episode also touches on changing commitments to free speech principles and creating a more inclusive academic environment.

In This Episode:

• Challenges to campus free speech principles

• Critique of the oppressor-oppressed dichotomy

• Why universities need more intellectual diversity

• The impact of identity politics on student life

• Advocacy for classic free speech doctrines

About Jilian:

Jillian Lederman is a 2024 graduate of Brown University, where she studied political science and economics. While in college, she served as the Executive Chair of Hillel International’s Israel Leadership Network, the President of Brown Students for Israel, co-president of Free Inquiry at Brown, and a writer and editor for The Brown Political Review. She is also a Research Assistant for Heterodox Academy. Her writing has been published in The New York Times and The Hill, and she has been interviewed on FOX, CNN, MSNBC, SiriusXM, and News Nation. This fall, she will begin work as an editorial fellow at The Wall Street Journal.

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