In this episode of Hunger for Wholeness, Sr. Ilia Delio continues her conversation with neuroanthropologist Terrence Deacon. Together, they explore how we might “fall up” into a collective future—probing the limits of machines and minds, and why complexity in nature often emerges not by work, but by play.

What happens when we mistake computation for thinking? When our tools become mirrors and we fall for our own reflection? From Plato’s worry about writing to today’s large language models, Deacon asks how outsourcing our capacities can both diminish autonomy and unlock astonishing, shared intelligence—raising new questions about freedom, dependence, and human flourishing.

Later in the episode, Sr. Ilia and Deacon trace “falling up” through biology—hemoglobin’s elegant duplications, altruism, and the rule of play—before turning to the noosphere: a future where persons remain distinct yet increasingly interdependent. Along the way they weigh the risks of “queen bee” totalisms against the promise of a freer, more cooperative species life.

ABOUT TERRENCE DEACON

“Almost everything we do is with respect to something that doesn’t yet exist… All of our actions… are really about that absence. I actually think that this is the essence of what it means for something to be alive.”

Professor Terrence Deacon is Distinguished Professor emeritus at the University of California, Berkeley, and has previously held faculty positions at Harvard University, Harvard Medical School, and Boston University. His research in comparative and developmental neuroanatomy has focused on the human brain, using physiological, quantitative, and cross-species methods. He is the author of The Symbolic Species: The Coevolution of Language and the Brain (1997), which explores how language and the human brain evolved together, and Incomplete Nature: How Mind Emerged from Matter (2012), which examines how thermodynamic, self-organizing, semiotic, and evolutionary processes gave rise to life and mind. He is currently working on a new book, Falling Up: How Inverse Darwinism Catalyzes Evolution, which explores how the relaxation of natural selection and subsequent degenerative processes have paradoxically contributed to the evolution of increasing biological complexity.

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